I am trying this as a thought experiment to see where it goes:
If Black America were a country it would have 37 million people – which is just about the number of people who live in six of the seven blackest states: Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina and North Carolina. A fourth of all blacks in America live there already.
Facts & Figures:
(The numbers in parentheses show its world rank out of 224 countries)
- Name: Black America
- Population: 37.0 million (#35)
- Area: 771,000 sq km (#38)
- Capital: Atlanta
- Largest cities: Atlanta, Charlotte, New Orleans, Birmingham
- Language: English
- Religion: 80% Protestant (mostly Baptist), 5% Catholic, 1% Muslim, 1% other, 13% none
- Economy:
- GDP: $892 billion (#17)
- GDP per capita: $24,100 (#55)
- Class structure: 46% middle class, 29% working class, 25% poor
- Education: 20% of those 25 or older have a university degree
- Health:
- Life expectancy: 72.8 years (#121)
- Fertility: 2.1 children per woman (#120)
- Infant mortality: 13.4 per 1000 live births (#131)
- Aids deaths: 7,100 in 2007 (#39)
Comparisons: It has as many people as Poland but makes 30% more money and would have more than twice as much land. Or: it makes as much money as Australia but has twice as many people to support.
The better comparison, though, is with the West Indies, the black English-speaking part of the Caribbean. For example, Black America has about the same GDP per capita as Trinidad & Tobago. Its life expectancy and infant mortality are at Jamaican levels. Its religion, language and history are much the same too.
The main difference is that Black America became an inner colony not an outer one. Its main resource was cheap labour. That still is true: only 10% of its income comes from black-owned businesses. Nearly all the rest comes from doing underpaid work for white people.
Advantages: There would be way more black businesses. The courts, the police and the prisons would no longer be in white hands. Nor would the schools, the history books or the press. Nor would the labour and housing markets. Nor would policy on crime, drugs, education and poverty. It would be easier to mount a black film and fashion industry – though Hollywood would probably still be big, just not as big.
Not only would much of the white racism be cut out, but internalized racism would lessen considerably too. Colourism, though, might get worse.
Disadvantages: It would be dependent on America for trade and advanced weaponry. If it opposed American foreign policy it could wind up like Cuba or Iraq. The more likely danger is that America would turn it into a banana republic. Its government would become weak, corrupt and serve American interests over its own.
Black Savage Rule: I know some readers believe that blacks are incapable of self-government. Look at Zimbabwe! But even Steve Sailer would have to admit that an independent Black America, even with an average IQ of 89, would be run way better than anything in Black Africa, where the IQ is 70. That 89 puts it on a level with Latin America – or, because of the Flynn Effect, with White America in the 1950s.
See also:
I’m sure you’re aware of the Black separatist movement that was crushed by the federal government which had intended to make those states you highlighted an independent nation. Would you have supported a cause like that?
Abraham Lincoln had a plan repatriate all the freed slaves to Africa, but also considered giving a large portion of Texas to them. If he hadn’t been assassinated, maybe one of his plans would have gone into effect.
I’ve talked with Black guys that felt this would’ve been a more ideal situation than the segregation that followed. It’s hard to argue that it wouldn’t have been. One thing that I’ve pointed out is that Blacks have benefited tremendously from Western science and medicine. Would they have had access to this if they had become an independent nation?
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To Sagat:
One thing that I’ve pointed out is that Blacks have benefited tremendously from Western science and medicine. Would they have had access to this if they had become an independent nation?
Why wouldn’t they would be my question. Barbados, the Bahamas, etc have access to Western science and medicine.
It would seem to be more a function of income to gain access.
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Eh … I’m not a big fan of ethno-states. I think I’d hightail it to Mexico or Brazil if anything like this were to ever develop.
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To FG:
Eh … I’m not a big fan of ethno-states. I think I’d hightail it to Mexico or Brazil if anything like this were to ever develop.
But you miss such thrilling cultural excitement like this German band :-;
The atrocity above was brought to you by a German band circa 1979:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dschinghis_Khan_(album)
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Interesting idea that has been tossed about in one way or another.
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Uncle Milton,
Why wouldn’t they would be my question. Barbados, the Bahamas, etc have access to Western science and medicine.
It would seem to be more a function of income to gain access.
Barbados and the Bahamas had been Western colonies for most of their history. It would be a different situation than a completely independent nation populated solely by freed slaves. Of course this is all speculation, but for this thought exercise I’m presuming that Whites wouldn’t have been a major part of their society. The closest example we have of this is Haiti.
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Anyway, Abagond’s scenario isn’t about what a freed slave society established after the Civil War would be like. He’s talking about a modern Black independent nation. I didn’t mean to take it off topic.
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Excellent theory. And I would vote for Abagond for President!
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that would be stupid, and I think a lot of blacks would leave cause its racist to others. theres going to be a lot of tensions with bordering American states like florida and texas
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To Sagat:
Barbados and the Bahamas had been Western colonies for most of their history. It would be a different situation than a completely independent nation populated solely by freed slaves…Of course this is all speculation, but for this thought exercise I’m presuming that Whites wouldn’t have been a major part of their society. The closest example we have of this is Haiti.
Given the paternalism of the abolitionists (and the premise that such a state would have been formed after the victory of the Union over the Confederacy, and hence the terms of the founding would be by Whites…) I tend to think that (for good or ill ) the influence on such a state by American Whites would have been quite strong, unlike say the Liberian or Haitian experience, where there was some influence but it was peripheral and more antagonistic. (at least with Haiti..) Although this is veering off topic to some degree I think it is relevant to speculate how such a state would (or would have…) come about.
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I have thought about this more than a dozen of times, only to find myself back here in modern AMERICA.
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interesting thought. but, how long it could have been independent? I mean, US does not think too kindly of any state in its back yard if they are too independent. Just look at the history of the Latin America, most recently how US goverment thinks about Hugo Chavez. His crimes include such atrocities as providing free health care for all funded by national oli money. That is a big No No for americans, as we have seen, even though it is the only way to provide that service for the poor. But then again, the poor don’t need such services I guess. That is communism! 😀
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LOL. I first blinked at the whole “Black Savage Rule” part, but on second reading I caught the heavy sarcasm.
Now regarding the whole thought exercise:
Abagond’s post left out a lot of factors: the economical and political situation of the rest of the USA, the power balance between them and the potential Black state, the context of the secession of this state, the nature of its leadership, the adhesion of its population to the idea of independence, etc…
Consider the 2 opposite (and deliberately caricatural) scenarios:
Scenario A:
The new Black state access to independence in a context very similar to the current one: the USA are still powerful and both their leadership and population are hostile to the partition of the country. Plus, they control most of the economy of the newborn state. You can bet they will do everything they can to set it to fail.
Now let’s push the caricature further: in this context where Blacks control at most 10% of their economy, let’s assume that the new Black state is ruled by opportunistic politicians or, worse, CIA proxies such as the late Mobutu Sese Seko in Zaïre, and is populated by black folks such as the posters Dee and FG above who consider emigrating at the mere thought of a black-ruled nation…
I have no doubt that this Black American country will be an epic fail.
Scenario B:
The new Black state access independence in a context where either the USA are too weak to be a nuisance or the Black leadership has been able to counter their attempts at sabotaging their independence. The new state has control on its economy and is ruled by legitimate, ambitious leaders who are dedicated to their country and who have the interest of their people at heart (think the late Thomas Sankara, for the integrity and character if not the political ideology).
Add to that a black population which is aware that they are the best fit to decide of their own future, like everyone else on this planet.
I have no doubt that this Black American country will be a success.
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I agree, the fortunes of such a state would be hugely affected by how it was created.
For example, if it came about from a slave uprising – like Haiti or like what John Brown in fact tried to do in the 1850s – then America would do everything in its power to make it a failed state. As it has done with Haiti.
If it comes about in the future, then presumably America would be in a pretty weakened state since it would have tried to stop it from coming into being in the first place. But by that point there might be some other power, like China, which would try to undermine its independence.
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I wonder whether there is big enough of an elite to lead and organize this country, though. Are there enough black judges, black politicians, black scientists, black doctors, black managers, etc. to organize this new country’s healthcare, trade, government, justice, and such?
And even moreso, what would be the main goods of this nation? Could they even support themselves? And what is the currency? No one could expect the USA to let a country outside of their control print dollars. So you need a new currency, that you have to back up with things of value, like gold.
All in all, interesting idea, but, as is, probably impossible to do.
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I wouldn’t even begin to consider moving to this black country unless those blacks who support and uphold the current complexion hierarchy were forbidden from emigrating there or had undergone brain transplants to rid them of their love of complexion whiteness. If they are allowed in, they would bring their “preference” attitudes which would cause major divisiveness and pretty soon we would all be split along complexion lines just as the U.S. is currently split along race lines. Also some of these complexion hierarchists would be willing to sell out the blacks to outside whites simply based on their preference for white complexions.
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Jorbia:
That is like the history of Haiti.
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Only if the new state has the potential to rival China’s leadership, which is quite unlikely.
On the contrary, the way I see it, China as well as any other superpower of the time would wholeheartedly support its independence, in order to undermine the USA.
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Jorbia:
That is like the history of Haiti.
Yes, Agabond, it seems that some blacks NEVER learn.
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GDP: $892 billion (#17)
GDP per capita: $24,100 (#55)
Class structure: 46% middle class, 29% working class, 25% poor
Those numbers are not appropriate for your purpose, because much of the African-American GDP depends on the more productive segments of the population. For example, African Americans are disproportionately employed by the public sector, which in turn is financed by the private sector, and, as you say, there are relatively few black businesses.
the black English-speaking part of the Caribbean. For example, Black America has about the same GDP per capita as Trinidad & Tobago.
There are more East Indians than blacks in Trinidad & Tobago, so I don’t understand why you’d compare Black America to it.
Black America, even with an average IQ of 89,
The African American IQ is about 85, compared to 100 for whites, according to most data. The latest standardization of the WAIS, for example, reports the African-American mean IQ as 85.5, IIRC. In a less developed environment such as the country you propose, it would probably be lower.
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Thank you for this interesting entry – being originally from Ghana and spending a majority of my life here in the states, I have found much to think about in regards to the many shades of the African-American/Black experience in this country. I like to read thoughtful, intriguing pieces that force me to think and this definitely counts! I have been enjoying your pieces for some time now.
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It’s an interesting thought experiment I’ve been debating about since I set my foot on US soil for the first time 20 years ago.
Apart from the fact that it would probably cost trillions of $ to pull it off in all details, I think it could still end up in uncontrollable migrations. Unless of course you put an iron curtain around it – North Korean or former Berlin wall style, except that the difference would be that the migration could go more or less both ways.
I don’t think any of the two countries would ever be “homogeneous” anyway. And then the old problems will most likely creep in sooner or later.
The mentality has to change. That’s the major problem to begin with. You might be able to implement changes in political, social and economical structures by imposing them. Drawing borders can hardly contribute in changing people’s mindsets towards a positive outcome though. Americans tend to be too addicted to enemy images.
And last but certainly not least, money speaks too loud and clear to everybody…
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In a perfect world…..
I’ve seen several statements alluding to, or asserting that this mythic ‘Black America’, has no ‘productive’ segment of its population. There are a number of remedies for that. However, I am a ‘realist’, abusers will never let their victims go, unless they are destroyed, or shown the error of their ways in dollars and cents.
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Oyan:
Good point: it is the old line of “You’ll be nothing without me…”
There is also a self-serving desire for whites to view blacks as a drain on the country, both now and even back in slave times.
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Jack:
Black IQ: I looked it up two years ago when I did a post on it. This is what I wrote:
“The mean black IQ in America now stands at 89.1, according to the WAIS-III IQ test. For whites it is 102.6. “
More:
That is where the 89 comes from. But even at 85 the point made in the last paragraph would still hold.
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You’ve given economy, education and health. What would crime statistics look like?
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I really like Dee and Jorbia’s points. They covered all I would have said.
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The time to have created that country would have been before 1952. This was before Urban Renewal and riots destroyed Black businesses. As a child in a segregated community and for a while having no contact with white folk, we seemed to have been a relatively self sufficient society, including the Black folk who looked white. Colorism was not as bad as some imagine it to be now. Take a look at my Dad’s college class of 1939 and check out the desires and attitudes of the potential professional class. Also think of the Harlem Renaissance, the artistic and entrepreneurial spirit there. Meharry was turning out doctors, Tuskegee was turning out scientist and tradesmen; we were certainly up on technology. My dad later became a radio engineer, even under Jim Crow. At that time, it might have been seen as a viable solution to the desegregation problem. I think the problem at that time is that Negroes were too invested in becoming full participating citizens in the US. Perhaps if a separate country had not always been seen as some radical idea of the crazy, we could have pulled it off.
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@Jorbia
“jorbia
I wouldn’t even begin to consider moving to this black country unless those blacks who support and uphold the current complexion hierarchy were forbidden from emigrating there or had undergone brain transplants to rid them of their love of complexion whiteness. If they are allowed in, they would bring their “preference” attitudes which would cause major divisiveness and pretty soon we would all be split along complexion lines just as the U.S. is currently split along race lines. Also some of these complexion hierarchists would be willing to sell out the blacks to outside whites simply based on their preference for white complexions…”
I want to ask, do you really think this would happen, but deep down, I know it could. So basically what you are speaking of, are ‘blks who support racism against [darker] blacks, being left with their racist mentors. Great looking out.
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This is from the book “WAIS-IV CLINICAL USE AND INTERPRETATION” (Weiss et al. 2010), p. 119:
As shown in Table 4.3, the highest mean FSIQ score was obtained by the Asian sample (106.1), followed by the White (103.2), Hispanic (91.6), and African American (88.7) samples. The largest difference is observed between the Asian and African American groups – more than a full standard deviation (17.4 points). The White/African American difference is 14.5 FSIQ points, and the Hispanic/White difference is 11.6 points. Recall that these data are based on samples matched to the US Census for education and region of the country within racial/ethnic group.
The black-white gap is a bit larger than in the WAIS-III sample. However, standardization samples are not necessarily truly representative of minority groups (because of small sample sizes). A big meta-analysis like this one is more reliable: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1744-6570.2001.tb00094.x/abstract
Like I said above, the mean IQ of African Americans would probably be lower in an environment which lacked the infrastructure and institutions of the United States. Moreover, it’s not true that African Americans today have a mean IQ similar to those of whites a few generations ago. This is due to the fact that the Flynn effect does not generally represent a true increase in intelligence. This can be seen in the fact that IQ scores are not measurement invariant across generations, i.e. they measure different latent constructs for different generations. This paper sums it up in this way: “It appears therefore that the nature of the Flynn effect is qualitatively different from the nature of B–W differences in the United States. Each comparison of groups should be investigated separately. IQ gaps between cohorts do not teach us anything about IQ gaps between contemporary groups”.
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BTW the only white person in the yearbook is the Governor of Tennessee.
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Jack,
I like to see a survey to determine the number of Black people who have taken an IQ test.
I would bet the sample size is to small to extrapolate that kind of result. If there are currently 35 million black people tell me what would be a meaningful statistical sample. I also wonder if many in your sample are illiterate, how can you have a valid sample. Not understanding the test has nothing to do with intelligence, but only that you can’t read with comprehension. To me that means illiteracy.
I would also bet that most Black bloggers and those who get involved in discussions on the net, their intelligence is higher than what “they” say the mean is. They are probably greater in numbers than that sample you referred to.
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@Oyan–
I want to ask, do you really think this would happen, but deep down, I know it could. So basically what you are speaking of, are ‘blks who support racism against [darker] blacks, being left with their racist mentors. Great looking out.
Oh yes, I believe it would definitely happen. Agabond mentioned that Haiti reflects the situation I described. I didn’t even know that had gone on or goes on in Haiti. I simply know some complexion hierarchists very well. I know how they think.
And I think that’s an excellent idea for them to be left behind with their mentors who’ve taught them so well.
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“I wouldn’t even begin to consider moving to this black country unless those blacks who support and uphold the current complexion hierarchy were forbidden from emigrating there or had undergone brain transplants to rid them of their love of complexion whiteness. ”
Now I’m not sure if some of these “blacks” about whom you speak “look white.” But if they do, and they are fond of “complexion whiteness”, that’s not “hierarchy” but rather just self-esteem.
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I don’t think mixed people would be well-off in any country based on “race” unity or race stratification because such a social order would in all likelihood be hostile to families containing individuals of different “races.” The European-appearing men in that yearbook from ’39 lived under such a regime (Jim Crow) and surely suffered for it. Those were likely the darkest days for mixed Americans. Probably the only reason many of them identified as they did at that time was due to the passage of eugenics laws in the early part of the century which were targeted specifically at them. In the 1800s, many of their predecessors identified as mixed race or even white .
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FG,
A black country as I envisioned wouldn’t be defined by race, because blackness isn’t defined that way either. Black are tribal, all are family. I lived with cousins from both my mother and father’s side on the same block and the relatives on both sides of my family ranged in color.
Only this last generation has identified as mixed race or whatever. Some Black people simply passed, other may have been in a hierarchy, but still identified as Black, many despised white people and thought they were better.
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FG,
If you would be worried, look at the Civil Rights Movement and look at the leaders.
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It is interesting that you place African American IQ higher than those of native Africans. I wonder why then native Africans here in America, perform far better academically than African Americans, and many other races for that matter?…I mean for people with the lower IQ?
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More blacks are extremly antagonistic with each other. There is an overwhelming: black/ self hate, jealousy, mistrust, misjudgement, lack of confidency, colourizm,a sense of inferiority complex, self(black) doubt, egocentrizm, selfishness, sever lack of unity….. and much more, amongst Blacks, that makes the concept of a successful Black Country : a thing of doubt.
BTW, I’m a realistic Black.
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fancyface, in response to your last post, the same can be said of any racial group in this country.
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To Sam:
A little OT but I thought I would correct you:
US does not think too kindly of any state in its back yard if they are too independent. Just look at the history of the Latin America, most recently how US goverment thinks about Hugo Chavez.
Well he doesn’t think much of the US either and he was free to call the US President a devil in front of the UN and lo and behold he wasn’t overthrown. Neither was Morales of Bolivia who is also Socialist leaning.
His crimes include such atrocities as providing free health care for all funded by national oli money.
You mean like Mexico and Canada have done for decades…? We haven’t invaded Canada but I have seen quite a fee Canadians spying in the US especially in Arizona and Florida during the winter months. They go by the codename snowbirds.
Alright… yeah I know the US has been pretty aggressive in Latin America, multiple invasions in Central America and the Caribbean form the teens to the 1930s. And the US backed military governments in Argentina, Brazil, and Chile in the 70s and 80s. (And was responsible for an overthrow of a Democratically elected leader in Guatemala in the 1950s…) But pretty much since the early 90s there has been little US intervention in Latin America. Once the big bad Russian bear threw in the towel the US hasn’t really been too concerned with the commies.
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The idea of a Black country is realistic, especially considering the current polarizing political and economic climates of the U.S.
The condition of America is a weakness that could be exploited for some good.
I’m envisioning something like the bus boycotts of the civil rights era except on a grand scale.
Blacks could “boycott” the whole country of America and migrate to those certain states specified.
The kicker would be if Blacks could persuade other world nations to join the “Boycott of America” and cripple America’s already raggedy economy.
I don’t think it would take very long to assume a position where Blacks could coax America out of said lands while also acquiring the necessities required to sustain the new Black Country until self it is fully self sufficient.
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To Chicknoir:
Perhaps these disadvantages may be found of course to a lesser degree in other race, no doubt( afterall, nothng in life is exactly an absolute), but it is of course without a doubt far more pronounced in blacks.
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fancyface but it is of course without a doubt far more pronounced in blacks.
or maybe it’s because you are blk that you notice these things moreso. Or maybe it’s the deep subconious negative self loathing(abagond post please) that many blks have.
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You echo me!…..Your point exactly?
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I like to see a survey to determine the number of Black people who have taken an IQ test.
I would bet the sample size is to small to extrapolate that kind of result. If there are currently 35 million black people
In the Roth et al. meta-analysis I linked to above, the sample sizes are in the millions. Military, educational, and occupational testing has produced huge data sets, all of them showing similar racial/ethnic gaps.
I also wonder if many in your sample are illiterate, how can you have a valid sample. Not understanding the test has nothing to do with intelligence, but only that you can’t read with comprehension. To me that means illiteracy.
There are tests that do not require literacy, and the racial gap is similar on them. Moreover, low IQ may cause illiteracy rather than the other way round.
I would also bet that most Black bloggers and those who get involved in discussions on the net, their intelligence is higher than what “they” say the mean is.
People who get involved in e.g. political discussions online are probably of above average IQ, regardless of race.
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While the post is interesting (and fanciful inasmuch as it will never happen), if anyone wants to live in a “Black State”, there are quite a few in Africa and throughout the Caribbean.
Personally, I like the US just as it is — we have a Black President (for now) and the living standards for Blacks here is better than it is for Blacks in most (if not all) Black-dominated countries.
It’s best for us to enjoy and make the most out of what we have now instead of fantasizing about what the US would be like if it were a Black country. I would leave if that ever happened as I am not into Black dominance (or any other racial domination).
The linked article suggests that the future is bleak for Black males unless something is done about their education.
http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/District_Dossier/2010/11/black_male_achievement_paints.html
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The linked article suggests that the future is bleak for Black males unless something is done about their education.
http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/District_Dossier/2010/11/black_male_achievement_paints.html
Scary article.
The only “something” that can ever solve educational underachievement is parental involvement. Nothing else works.
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The only “something” that can ever solve educational underachievement is parental involvement. Nothing else works.
Aside from the fact that some BAM are obviously not pro educational achievement, this comes back to the beginning point of a circular situation. Most black boys in America come from 1-parent homes in environments where they see other black men abandon their children, so these boys grow up to abandon their children, leaving them in a 1-parent situation, and so on.
It seems that most BAM are content to continue doing this and blame the women. So, to get out of this circle, BAW are going to have to break out and marry men who are not from that type of circular environment, to at least try to make sure that their children will have 2 parents. If not, the circle will continue to loop, forever.
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Your view is very insightful, and to the point. Black Americans have to be realistic and deal with more pressing needs in their communities first(before trying to create a country. A child learns to crawl first before walking, it is the order of things) . Blacks have more pressing needs that take priority, that needs resolution, prior to the talk of being a country of its own. Such needs as dealing to do away with this depressing epidemic of 1 parenting culture, erradication of the overwhelming crime rate, promisciousity and teenage pregnancy, the reluctance of the need for scholastic education, divisivness amongst each other, the lack of appreciation for blackness, lack of oneness, lack of structure and organization. Blacks need to defeat this spirit of subserviance, and take the initiative towards progress, honor, virtue, integrity, dignity, and respect for self(Blackness), stronger work ethics, stronger involvment in American politics, and a creation of stronger, undunted productive Black American communities, only then can we be taking seriously by others.
BTW, I’m a realistic Black.
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Jack,
I took the military test both for the Air Force and the Army, they do require literacy to take them. Also, the people who usually go into the military, quite often go in to improve their education and job training. Blacks usually have less opportunities in the real world, because of the lack and quality of education, so it would be possible that their scores would be lower. The test that I took in school that require matching symbols, series and what is the next box, doesn’t test overall intelligence, it test either math, spacial or mechanical ability, like the verbal SAT test only reading comprehension and knowledge of vocabulary. Most of these test, test really how well one has be educated.
None of the those test, are considered to be IQ test, so I have no idea why anyone would use the data, but only to try to prove the “Bell Curve.”
I hate these qualifications of people.
It’s like people who assume mechanical ability is attached to the “Y” gene. They will see failure in their business rather than disbelieve it.
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I doubt very seriously that a ‘brick and mortar’ Black America will ever come to pass, in these United States. Too much of a ‘shooting fish in a barrel/sitting duck potential’. However, I am much in support of a ‘Black America, networking community’, that is the manifestation of online/grass roots community efforts and solidarity/building in the United States. As child, young person, that’s what I thought the NAACP, Urban League, and all the other alphaphet blk organizations were about. They may have started out as such, but ended up middle class/upper-clas blk ‘country clubs. They do, for the most part ‘represent’, but not enough in my humble/honest opinion.
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I would never want to live in such a country. I would move out of America and idea that all the problems of bias and racism are magically going to go away because now everybody vaguely from the same contient is retarded.
1. People are stupid and will try to make-up any bs reasons why they’re better than some other groups of people. Remember, Marie Antoinette and how the French hated her for being not French and Shaka Zulu was disliked by his people because he was a union of two different tribes. It didn’t matter to them if they were the same color, it’s different.
2. Just because vaguely from the same area, doesn’t mean that we’re going to all agree on the same things. How’s going to make these new rules and how do you know that everybody’s going to be onboard.
3. What about the people that like being along different cultures or don’t relate to what matches with their skin tone. For example, I’m an atheist, gothic, bisexual, and love metal. So I would go through discrimination.
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Edit : Who’s going to make these new rules and how do you know that everybody’s going to be onboard ?
I know I going to hear the whole “whites made us that way” excuse. It’s bs. Blacks like to use the color thing because it makes them feel better about themselves. Not to say that whites haven’t played a part in it, but most of people know that and still use it.
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@fancyface —
Blacks have more pressing needs that take priority, that needs resolution, prior to the talk of being a country of its own.
The MOST pressing need for black Americans to address are #1 how to keep 1 man committed to 1 woman and to his children or how to maintain STABLE families, if they’re going to have children at all and #2 is the malignant complexion hierarchy upheld among blacks.
If just those 2 issues could be seriously addressed among blacks Americans with determination to stamp them out, the other issues would resolve themselves or be minimized in a pretty short time. IMO, the reason why #1 is hard to fix is too many BAM don’t really like BAW or resent them because they feel inferior/inadequate around BAW and the reason why #2 is hard to fix is because of feelings of inferiority that some BAM have when they compare themselves to white men. But there is so much denial about all of this. If they would stop denying it and address it, there might be hope.
BAW can’t fix BAM, so this is the reason why some of the more capable BAW are breaking away or are talking more now about separating from the men.
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Is this based on percentages? Because I know that New York, Texas and Florida have some of the largest black populations.
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Right, percentages. All those states that are 20% black or better – except for Maryland (26.7%) since it is not contiguous with the others.
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@Jorbia:
I wonder if we will ever live in a world where the majority of BM and BW marry before having children and raise children in stable two-parent homes. I guess Africans living in Africa are the last Blacks actually doing this.
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@ Joriba:
You and I speak in one tongue. Yes you’re right, the need to solve more pressing needs is the way to go. We have these major problems that we continue to trivialize and deny, which remain unsolved, and now, we want to step over that to talk of creating a country? Black men have absolutely no respect or regards for black women, while they would kiss the floor the women of other races step on, while the men of those other races adore their women. You’re absolutely right in your comment.
Another rubbish, is this light skin, dark skin crap that only black people in America, including the islands ( this tickled down, passed slave era mentality), continue to nuture. If only Blacks realize how inferior this concept makes them appear in the eyes of non blacks. When people of other races acknowledge one according to features, the black person considers a lighter skin more superior than a darker skin, regardless of features. And we are the first to cry disremenation and or racism? how idiotic!, Go figure that one out!
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If there are some ‘issues’ that Blacks need to deal with before coming up out of America it would be low self confidence and low self esteem.
Also; If Blacks had a sense of emergency concerning their immediate futures within the U.S, then they’d realize that they could do a far better job governing themselves rather than being governed by an oppressor.
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@fancyface —
We have these major problems that we continue to trivialize and deny, which remain unsolved, and now, we want to step over that to talk of creating a country? Black men have absolutely no respect or regards for black women, while they would kiss the floor the women of other races step on,
The colorism issue will never be smashed by BAM because so many of them have dreams of getting a light complected woman or a white woman. It’s therefore a conflict of interest for most of them. Notice how it’s BAM or black men who try to shut me up when I talk about the complexion hierarchy here. They are like sentinels guarding their dreams.
I think some BAM do respect some BAW, but as I said, many of them feel very insecure around these women. They then blame” the women for “making them feel insecure.” That’s like a wife-beating husband blaming his wife for him beating her up.
I think BAW should just forget about BAM and not care what other kind of women the men want. Although it would be easy for me to get a well-employed BAM since I’m that type of white-complected woman they like, there’s only a very slim chance that I’ll marry one of them. I won’t take the chance of him teaching my children that “light is right.”
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@Patricia Kayden–
I wonder if we will ever live in a world where the majority of BM and BW marry before having children and raise children in stable two-parent homes. I guess Africans living in Africa are the last Blacks actually doing this.
The reality is that it’s MAINLY BW who want to marry before having children. It’s mainly BW who care about stable families. Most BW want that a whole lot, but the greatest portion of BM obviously don’t want to marry, don’t marry, and don’t care about stable families. If they did, they would marry and commit to their children.
So the great majority of BM have already made their decsion. The tragedy is that so many BW stay in a state of wishing, hoping, and thinking they can talk BM into changing their minds. I think BW are conservative like that. But that’s the greatest waste of time ever because change is going to take place whether we want it or not. Bw should get themselves ready to roll with the change.
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jorbia wrote
@Patricia Kayden–
I wonder if we will ever live in a world where the majority of BM and BW marry before having children and raise children in stable two-parent homes. I guess Africans living in Africa are the last Blacks actually doing this.
The reality is that it’s MAINLY BW who want to marry before having children. It’s mainly BW who care about stable families. Most BW want that a whole lot, but the greatest portion of BM obviously don’t want to marry, don’t marry, and don’t care about stable families. If they did, they would marry and commit to their children.
Everything always comes back to those evil black men as far as you are concerned, does it not?
Unless we’re talking about rape it very much takes two to tango. Everyone knows how babies are made. The question could just as easily be why have black women stopped getting married before they bear children? What evidence do you have that Black men care any less about stable families than Black women do? Oh, wait you’re going to tell us that Black women and Black women alone are allergic to birth control?
Pure bigotry. My group can do no wrong, everyone else is suspect. No different than anyone else.
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fancyface wrote
@ Joriba:
You and I speak in one tongue. Yes you’re right, the need to solve more pressing needs is the way to go. We have these major problems that we continue to trivialize and deny, which remain unsolved, and now, we want to step over that to talk of creating a country? Black men have absolutely no respect or regards for black women, while they would kiss the floor the women of other races step on, while the men of those other races adore their women. You’re absolutely right in your comment.
Another rubbish, is this light skin, dark skin crap that only black people in America, including the islands ( this tickled down, passed slave era mentality), continue to nuture. If only Blacks realize how inferior this concept makes them appear in the eyes of non blacks. When people of other races acknowledge one according to features, the black person considers a lighter skin more superior than a darker skin, regardless of features. And we are the first to cry disremenation and or racism? how idiotic!, Go figure that one out!
Please show me a non-European , non-African culture in which lighter skin is currently considered inferior to darker skin in beauty for women. I know for a fact that’s not the case in India, China or SouthEast or SouthWest Asia. When you can do that maybe you can talk about how “only Black people in America continue to nurture this concept”. Until then I think you’re making stuff up.
Again to say that “Black men have absolutely no respect or regards for black women, ” is simply not true and sounds like you have a personal problem of some sort. That’s unfortunate.
As far as “the men of those other races adore their women” would this include the white men in Eastern Europe making millions selling other white women in the sex trade or the Central Asian/SouthWest Asian men who think it appropriate to marry off nieces to uncles, kill rape victims or throw acid in the faces of girls trying to go to school? Would this include Italian Prime Minister Berlusconi who ‘apologized for not being able to combat growing rape numbers by explaining, “We don’t have enough soldiers to stop rape because our women are so beautiful.” ‘
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@Shady Grady–
Everything always comes back to those evil black men as far as you are concerned, does it not?ou
Why are YOU calling BM evil?
I would never pat ANY woman on the back for having OOW children. NEVER! But it’s normal for women to want to have children at some point. If the men who they socialize with won’t marry them, then would you say these women should NEVER have children? Just asking.
From reading the comments of BM on various sites, it seems that the BW is expected to be the ONLY one responsible for contraception. BM don’t seem to hold other BM accountable at all. Their rationale is that it’s the woman who will be left holding the bag (baby), but IMO, that’s a scummy response because that bio dad is an adult in most cases the same as the woman. Most important is that the infant is a human being who is being dropped by the man like a piece of trash, yet that same BM screams for mercy if a white cop bashes him in the head. Where’s was that BM’s mercy for his child?
What kind of adult human being can just drop his seed and not look back? Mind you that I would say the same thing if it were a woman doing this. I’m really trying to understand that type of mentality. And please don’t tell me that all or most of these BM are actually supporting their children and that others just think they’re not. That’s the newest bogus excuse that some BM are claiming–the “phantom” father defense. Even IF these men were providing all of that financial support, young children equally need emotional involvement from their dads and PROTECTION from bad other people.
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@Shady Grady–
As far as “the men of those other races adore their women” would this include the white men in Eastern Europe making millions selling other white women in the sex trade or the Central Asian/SouthWest Asian men who think it appropriate to marry off nieces to uncles, kill rape victims or throw acid in the faces of girls trying to go to school? Would this include Italian Prime Minister Berlusconi who ‘apologized for not being able to combat growing rape numbers by explaining, “We don’t have enough soldiers to stop rape because our women are so beautiful.” ‘
Of course, ALL of this is horrible.
There are also plenty of BAM pimps who peddle the flesh of their own black American women. Plenty of BAM uncles and various other male relatives have sex with their neices or try to do it. For ex., Oprah and many other BAW have been molested, raped by their black male relatives. I’m sure I don’t need to cite prominent BAW who’ve talked about that or cite the stats on the high number of this. These violations are even underreported in some neighborhoods since BAW are pressured not to “send another black man to jail.” I’m sure you’ve heard of BAM who kill BAW. and what that Italian prime minister said sounds very similar to BAM claiming that if BAW dress like ho’s, then they should expect to be treated like ho’s and deserve the way their bodies may be groped or mauled by men.
And of course, BAM don’t marry young girls because it’s against the law here and BAM don’t tend to marry much at all.o
Why try to defend this awful behavior of BAM? Instead, why don’t you and various other black men use your energy and other resources to educate other black men to be RESPONSIBLE men who marry the mothers of their children and commit to their children, no matter what.
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@ Jack
Concerning Indo-Trinidadians versus Afro-Trinidadians.
Here’s a tidbit. Most are mixed. “A person might self identify as Black or Indian based on physical appearance however they might be genetically more similar to a person of Indian and African descent”
Even so, the 40 to 38 percent is not a big enough difference.
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fancyface says,
@ Joriba:
You and I speak in one tongue. Yes you’re right, the need to solve more pressing needs is the way to go. We have these major problems that we continue to trivialize and deny, which remain unsolved, and now, we want to step over that to talk of creating a country? Black men have absolutely no respect or regards for black women, while they would kiss the floor the women of other races step on, while the men of those other races adore their women. You’re absolutely right in your comment.
jorbia says,
@Shady Grady–
Everything always comes back to those evil black men as far as you are concerned, does it not?ou
Why are YOU calling BM evil?
-I would never pat ANY woman on the back for having OOW children. NEVER! But it’s normal for women to want to have children at some point. If the men who they socialize with won’t marry them, then would you say these women should NEVER have children? Just asking.
-From reading the comments of BM on various sites, it seems that the BW is expected to be the ONLY one responsible for contraception. BM don’t seem to hold other BM accountable at all. Their rationale is that it’s the woman who will be left holding the bag (baby), but IMO, that’s a scummy response because that bio dad is an adult in most cases the same as the woman. Most important is that the infant is a human being who is being dropped by the man like a piece of trash, yet that same BM screams for mercy if a white cop bashes him in the head. Where’s was that BM’s mercy for his child?
-What kind of adult human being can just drop his seed and not look back? Mind you that I would say the same thing if it were a woman doing this. I’m really trying to understand that type of mentality. And please don’t tell me that all or most of these BM are actually supporting their children and that others just think they’re not. That’s the newest bogus excuse that some BM are claiming–the “phantom” father defense. Even IF these men were providing all of that financial support, young children equally need emotional involvement from their dads and PROTECTION from bad other people.
jorbia says,
@Shady Grady–
As far as “the men of those other races adore their women” would this include the white men in Eastern Europe making millions selling other white women in the sex trade or the Central Asian/SouthWest Asian men who think it appropriate to marry off nieces to uncles, kill rape victims or throw acid in the faces of girls trying to go to school? Would this include Italian Prime Minister Berlusconi who ‘apologized for not being able to combat growing rape numbers by explaining, “We don’t have enough soldiers to stop rape because our women are so beautiful.” ‘
-Of course, ALL of this is horrible.
-There are also plenty of BAM pimps who peddle the flesh of their own black American women. Plenty of BAM uncles and various other male relatives have sex with their neices or try to do it. For ex., Oprah and many other BAW have been molested, raped by their black male relatives. I’m sure I don’t need to cite prominent BAW who’ve talked about that or cite the stats on the high number of this. These violations are even underreported in some neighborhoods since BAW are pressured not to “send another black man to jail.” I’m sure you’ve heard of BAM who kill BAW. and what that Italian prime minister said sounds very similar to BAM claiming that if BAW dress like ho’s, then they should expect to be treated like ho’s and deserve the way their bodies may be groped or mauled by men.
-And of course, BAM don’t marry young girls because it’s against the law here and BAM don’t tend to marry much at all.o
-Why try to defend this awful behavior of BAM? Instead, why don’t you and various other black men use your energy and other resources to educate other black men to be RESPONSIBLE men who marry the mothers of their children and commit to their children, no matter what.
laromana says,
jorbia and fancyface,
Thanks for your EXCELLENT/INSIGHTFUL comments regarding the MAJOR problems BAW/Black children face when MOST BAM choose to PROMOTE ANTI-BW RACISM/COLORISM/ANTI BLACK FAMILY BEHAVIOR.
Although it’s TYPICAL for ANTI-BW/ANTI-BLACK FAMILY BAM to MAKE EXCUSES for their DESTRUCTIVE BEHAVIOR INSTEAD OF CHALLENGING/CHANGING IT, the Black community will continue to SELF DESTRUCT UNTIL ALL BAM DO THEIR PART TO DESTROY ANTI-BW RACISM/ANTI-BLACK FAMILY BEHAVIOR
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“Another rubbish, is this light skin, dark skin crap that only black people in America, including the islands ( this tickled down, passed slave era mentality), continue to nuture.”
Yeah…sure. The thriving skin lightening businesses in Africa and Asia say otherwise.
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@ Blueperfumroses:
This is another of Black American ploit to trivialize the cancer of colourizm, by pointing to other peoples who use skin lighting cream. The problem here isn’t cosmetics, or about using lighting cream, it is far too intricate, and more to the bonemarrow of things. It is actually a very serious situation. While an African or an Asian may cosmetically apply a skin lightinig cream, just to enhance skin care, the Black African, or the Chines, does not then consider the effect of the skin lighting cream as making the user more superior than the non user. There is no where in native Africa where a light skin individual is considered more superior to a dark skined individual. These people do not remotly have this inferiority complex.
Blacks may continue their denial, a habit that is not only cancerous, but that has become metastatic. But just so you know, nothing productive comes out of denial. You may point your fingers all you want at other races, but you still cannot compare their progression to that of Black Americans. The only way one can move forward is by solving the problem that overwhelms them at the present, and being unrealistic, or in denail, only complicates matters.
For your information, I’m a very happily married(for 20 years) woman with 3 beautiful children and a stable life.
I have absolutely no problem or a disadvantage. So I call your bluff, I have no quals with the black American male as to whom they choose or marry, white, black spanish, etc.
My concern is for the progress of our people, and how we can solve our problems. For the longest time, I(just as may blacks, you included, just from reading your postings), was on the point of denial, and defense, but that infact isn’t productive, but rather counterproductive.
To solve the problem of our people, we must all realistically accept and acknowledge our problems. Only then can we move foward to acheive our goals.
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@BleuParfumRoses–
Yeah…sure. The thriving skin lightening businesses in Africa and Asia say otherwise.
I agree that it differs only by degrees but in some cases by a lot of degrees. Among blacks, the complexion hierarchy is so upheld by black males until black women in lots of places in the world want to look as light and as Euro as possible. This is not surprising. If the majority of black males around the world preferred chocolate women, the majority of black women would be toasting themselves today to be as dark as possible.
Maybe ths is why some groups of people have mostly just become light tan like Arabs, Puerto Ricans and others. Maybe black women need to just make it a point to have light tan babies.
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@ shady grade:
If you truely love yourself and you’re sick, you will seek medical attention, inorder to help you of your ailments. But when you continue to deny your illness, it will not terminate on its own, rather, it will encroach, overwhelm, and destroy you.
I’m not sure if you are capable to understanding my analogy, but I just felt that I should throw it out there anyway.
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@fancyface–
nothing productive comes out of denial.
ITA! If only blacks would stop this silly DENIAL, especially since everybody can see clearly what the problems are. It makes blacks look so goofy. It’s like having ice cream smeared all over your face and yet denying that you eat ice cream. 🙂
The complexion issue is a really BIG issue or the main issue because there are plenty of really nice BAW who would make really good wives, but the black men around them don’t like them because they’re not light enough or don’t have Euro features or hair. Those black men will claim that those women are not attractive but the main reason they say that is BECAUSE these women don’t look more Euro. That’s circular.
There really is no sound solution if the complexion hierarchy continues to be so important to black men. Yet there is complete silence about the complexion hierarchy among BAM because there is a conflict of interest.
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@ Joriba:
Another intelligent post. Thank you.
This is not a bashing of the black man, infact, far from it. I love Black men(my own people). I’m Black, and a product of a Black man. I’m exceedingly proud of who I am, and never felt less. I love my father(and his role in our lives), I love my brother. I have been furtunate to be brought up in a good home where my parent have remained intact for their 55 years of marriage.
Our parents preached, after God, education, education, education, and education……., my younger brother became an MD, my older sister a lawyer, and I, a Nurse Practitioner.
I realize that our been fortunate, is due to our parents, and the guidance, structure and nuture they provided for us.
I’m dark skined, and my complexion has never been an impediment for me in anyway, in fact, at the time of my marriage which was at age 20, I had to choose between two good men, who were both madly in love with me.
I’m just a Black person who love my people enough to care about our state of self imposed depression, that is all.
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Fancyface, I’m also the product of an intact black family though our complexions are light. It’s in my larger extended family where I see the evils of the complexion hierarchy practiced and it has ruined plenty of lives. In that whole community, they hold onto that hierarchy with a death grip. Even when they see it’s destroying them, they still hold onto it.
Black men complain all of the time that black women don’t use contraception. But what’s the real issue there? Do the men want the women to use contraception so that the men can have all the sex they want without commitment and without having to be hit with child support? How does black women not having children OOW address the issue of the low marriage rate among black Americans? There are lots of nice-mannered BAW who don’t have children and BAM are not pursuing them or not pursuing them for marriage. Nothing stops BAM from marrying these women.
For the sake of argument, let’s say every black American woman used ironclad birth control 100% of the time. All that would do is cause there to be a close to zero-birth rate among American blacks, which would severely reduce black social problems since there would be many fewer blacks. Is that what BAM want? Women rigidly using contraception 100% of the time wouldn’t necessarily stop the disease transmission rate. It wouldn’t increase intact families. It WOULD drastically reduce the abortion rate and working black men wouldn’t have to worry about their wages being garnished for child support. Black women would be able to keep all of their money for themselves instead of using it to take care of children. These are just a few of the outcomes. At that point, all black women would be waiting to get married before they have children? If the men aren’t marrying them, or at a very low rate, as is the case now, they’d still mostly be waiting forever to have children if black women are waiting for black men to marry them and women can’t do that. There is a lot of fingerpointing but no one is asking hard questions or supplying answers.
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To fancyface:
It is you who was doing the finger pointing at Blacks in the Americas. I have denied nothing about Black Americans and our color complex — it is often immigrant blacks who get on a soapbox railing and rant against Black Americans, all the while down-playing (or outright denying) related issues in their own communities and/or countries, just as you have done. It’s a tiresome and obvious tactic, and you’re only fooling yourselves. “In MY country we don’t do this or that…” That is pure BS. The desire to lighten up is so strong that both men and women will cover their bodies in poison night and day is far from trivial, as you’ve attempted to paint it. Straighten out your own backyard first.
And you haven’t drawn squat about me from my posts if you think I’m in denial about colorism among blacks (not just Black Americans). I am a Black woman, racially ambiguous in appearance, and have had many Black men (Africans and West Indians included) who, without a doubt, wanted me mainly because of my light complexion, features and wavy hair. I’ve also had dark skinned men who thought it was perfectly fine to tell me that they would never go with dark women because they didn’t want their kids coming out “too dark”. And these were men who weren’t even trying to get with me; they simply thought I would understand their self-hatred being that I’m light skinned.
This is my last post to you. You can point out problems with ethnicities other than your own till your about to burst.
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To BlueParfumeRoses:
Poor frustrated you. You sound angered and desperate, but it isnt my intention to provoke these from you or anyone. I merely wanted to arouse an intelligeable dialouge regarding the issues concerning OUR people. It is clear however that you are incapable of upholding up without being overtly emotional, extremly sensitive, and inflamed.
To move on further, A white person risking cancer to toast in the sun all day, or who sits in the radioactive sauna merely to get darker, is not doing this to look black, they themselves will very quickly tell you that they merely want to “look healthy”. And so it is, because trust me, whites would never want to(be Black or anyother race for that matter)give up the privelages they enjoy in this country merely for being white. On that tone, this white person, after haven aquired that darker shade of skin they cosmetically acquired, do not turn aroud to now presume that they are more superior to other lighter skined whites.
On this token, some Black Africans, East Indians, or Chinese, as you previously mentioned, may slather themselves with these cancer causing agents to get lighter(afterall, it is to some extent benign to admire and want something that we do not have). The Black African, or the Chinese (negating East Indian, with its already existing cast system) however, after haven acheived the desired effect from this bleaching agent, does then not turn around to feel superior to others who are darker than themselves, this concept is ridiculous.
For your information, Black Africans may stray once in a while to may others, but generally prefer marring each other. Infact, if only you understand the tribalizm that exist amoungst these people, you will realize what inconvenience it is for them to marry outsiders( yes, of course, when outside their countries, perhaps it is imperative to do this, inorder to get along). This is also the reason that when they do marry foreigners, they are very quick to detangle from such marriages when they get back home to their countries, to marry their own people.
The modern day colourizm not only exist with Black Americas, but is also endemic in the carribeans. This coloure complex manifested during the slavery erra, but has continued today, fueled and nurtured by Black Americans, and Black carribeans only. The present whites are truely uninvolved in this trivial mentality, for as far as they are concerned, you are black regardless of your shade or where you hail.
Blacks in the Americas, see this as a way to feel more superior to their brethern. The mentality being: Regardless of how unappealing the features are, regardless of the lack of education, so long as the skin is lighter, and the hair is curlier/straighter or what ever else, then I’m next to the white man, and therefore, more superior to my darker skined breathen who maybe far more educated than I am, and may even have far more appealing features.
What ridiculous notion! Good thing the rational world does not see things this way.
I also have no desire to further read or respond to your postings, because I have concluded that you are one of those adamant Blacks, who would rather hold on blindly to an opinion, rather than reason. It is like a sturbon child holding on to a knive, without the realization of its danger.
I hope that one day, that you would truely come to an understanding of the detriment of this situation whose impact you presently minimize.
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@fancyface and BleuParfumeRoses–
IMHO, we can’t look inside anyone’s head to see all of the actual reasons for why they’re lightening their skin with chemicals or for why they uphold the complexion hierarchy. Some women and men do it for self-hate reasons, some do it to get a plum job or other advantage or not look too different from others around them. Some do it for a variety of reasons, but I think the main reason black women skin-bleach or want lighter skin is to get social advantages with black men. They know that plenty of black men prefer light women. This means that the darker women don’t get those same social advantages with black men that light black women get, so it’s a very divisive issue.
I don’t really think my light skin has given me dating or social advantages with white males. White males grow up with and are already surrounded by whiter skin than mine. I go to a university that provides perks. I see white males in my school dating dark women, but I’ve rarely if ever seen black males on my campus dating dark women.
I know, however, that my complexion has given me many advantages with black men of all ages. Their eyes light up when they look at me. They think I’m a nicer, kinder, sweeter woman because I’m light. Those males overlook the nice, kind, sweet dark black women most of the time and then complain that there are no good black women or that all black women are OOW mothers or say other nasty things about them. White males may prefer blonds, but they don’t place a higher human value on them. They don’t think that brunette’s are unattractive or refuse to have “sympathy sex” with a brunette as one black male commenter here said he refuses to do with dark black women.
The group is not going to make progress when the largest proportion of black American males think this way. BAM continue to deny that most of them think this way and don’t do anything to try to change it because that would be a conflict of interest. So they won’t touch that or they say there’s nothing they can do about it since it was TV that made them think like that, while they complain and complain about BAW and OOW children.
@Fancyface–
Blacks in the Americas, see this as a way to feel more superior to their brethern. The mentality being: Regardless of how unappealing the features are, regardless of the lack of education, so long as the skin is lighter, and the hair is curlier/straighter or what ever else, then I’m next to the white man, and therefore, more superior .
Yes, one of my father’s half sisters actually said she couldn’t understand why she was depressed. She said that there were dark skinned women on her job who were always cheerful and this made my Aunt wonder how they could be so cheerful since they’re dark.
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@ Joriba:
Thanks Again for your insight. I value it. I have only for the past 20 years that I have lived in the USA learned of colourizm, since I previously never heard of it, nor did I grow up in it, so it never had an impact on me as a child or an adult for that matter.
Perhaps not growing up in colourizim afforded me the ability to see far beyound it and only to regard it as a mere ignorace that it truely is.
As I said, thank goodness the rational world does not reason this low, or else, we would never have had the pleasure to meet such exquisite women as Imani, Naomi, and many others like them.
Again, this isn’t about who the black American male marries, I couldn’t care less in that regard. I do not believe that one should be pressured to marry someone that they have no fancy for. If it is the preference of Black men to only marry outside their race, this in my opinion, shouldn’t be the excuse for the black woman to have OOW children, they too should not have to wait, but also should open their horizens to consider mates of other races as well. I do not believe Black women should soley bear the burden of wanting to maintain the black race. There isn’t a fear of Black exitinsion, afterall, Africa is a continent, and still thriving.
I would be guilty if I were to condem the BAM for marring who they chose, afterall, my husband is Caucasian(White American).
I chose my husband not because of his coloure, but because he met the criteria I set for marriage which were: that the individual must be highly educated, productive, structured and have organized life style, good up bringing etc. I was offering these, and so required these in return from a suitor. When it came time for me to marry, I had two white men to chose from, and so chose the one that I loved most(out of the two), and who was equally madly in love with me. And I have been married for twenty years, three children, and have no regrets.
Not having married someone of my race, however, does not nagate the fact that I’m still Black, and should still be concerned about the issues that trouble our people such as: Reluctance for education, settling for mediocraty, subserviance to other races, self doubt, severe inferiority complex, colourizm/ Black self hatread, overwhelming divisivness, lack of unity, lack of oneness amongst Blacks, OOW children with different men, teenage pregancies, crime, drugs, to mention but a few. All these concern me. I want the better for my people, and want to be able to discuss this without having to feel that I’m walking on egg shells.
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@Fancyface
You said something that I agree with totally. Not being able to find a good man is no excuse to have children out of wedlock. We should not take on the sole burden of raising black children, or take on the responsibility for the existance of the black community. I agree with you. If you can’t find a suitable black partner, then find a suitable non-black partner. It is not fair that children should grow up without two loving parents. No, there is nothing wrong with considering a non-black partner. If the black community diminishes considerably then, oh well!! At least the few children who are born will live in a stable two parent family!
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Jeri
However, I am not saying that the men don’t have a responsibilty to children who are born out of wed-lock. It is the fault of both the men and women when children are born out of wedlock. And therefore, men should not place the blame of OOW children solely on the women, just like women should not place the blame solely on men. Some men act as if they should not have to raise or pay childsupport because they feel the women should have used some type of birth control. But that is nonsense! He could have used a condom also!!! So there is no excuse for men not supporting their children. I just wish that both men and women refused to have OOW children because it is the children who suffer the most from these circumstances. I know a woman can raise a child on her own, but I feel that it should not be the black women’s sole responsibility to keep the black community into existence. Children need a mother and a father. If a black man is not interested in marriage, then don’t have a relationship with him. You and your future children deserve better!!
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However, if a woman gets pregnant, whether by accident or not, she should obviously have the baby! Never resort to abortion. I was just saying not to plan having a baby out of wedlock on purpose.
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I looked around on Agabond’s site and saw that ALL of these issues have been talked about in a lot of threads here over and over in the past few years. I think black women talk a lot about how black Americans have sunk and are continuing to sink because I think a lot of black women do care a LOT and want the group to improve and would be willing to make sacrifices to make that happen. I don’t think that enough black American men would be willing to make the changes in themselves and make sacrifices for the group to improve. So if BAW cannot hold the group up alone (and they can’t), it’s going to sink anyway. So as of today, each BAW has to decide how much she’s willing to invest in a sinking group.
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A black woman can have an abortion, if and when she pleases (w/o guilt). Too bad if you disagree. It’s not your body or your decision to make, regardless of what your religion says about the issue.
However, if a woman gets pregnant, whether by accident or not, she should obviously have the baby! Never resort to abortion. I was just saying not to plan having a baby out of wedlock on purpose.
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Abortion should never even be an option (no risk) to those who actually adhere to that part of scripture. Sadly, not many people do.
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This is a question I’ve often wondered about. First off, it’ll never happen anyway, I live in California and have no desire to live in those states. And there are whites who live in those states who aren’t going to get up and leave their property. So it’s just an intellectual game to play with.
If such a thing did happen, there would have to be a long transitional phase. And there would be a lot of growing pains. Black Americans are simply not used to being independent at this point. If 13% of America’s GDP was produced by black businesses, 13% of its high tech workers were black, 13% of it’s managers were black, 13% of doctors, college graduates, etc, then I’d say we could probably break off and form our own nation and have a standard of living comparable to what is in the US. A country can only be as good as the human capital and productivity of it’s denizens.
My best guess is that things would start off pretty rough while black Americans adjust to independence after four centuries of dependence on whites. After a number of decades, it would probably be similar to the standard of living in a typical Latin American country. I don’t think it would become another Haiti as WNs seem to think. But I don’t think it’s going to become Germany either.
And then another factor is how many non-blacks would be living there? There are Indians and Chinese that have immigrated to black countries in Africa and Caribbean. There are even Lebanese that own shops in Haiti. I take it the new black America would be open to immigration. So that adds a further dynamic.
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The present whites are truely uninvolved in this trivial mentality, for as far as they are concerned, you are black regardless of your shade or where you hail.
You know, I am seeing this change more and more nowadays.
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Mel
A black woman can have an abortion, if and when she pleases (w/o guilt). Too bad if you disagree. It’s not your body or your decision to make, regardless of what your religion says about the issue.
________________________________________________
I agree!
The only thing I would say ladies is do not use as a birth control. Because in the future you may want children and the body can not handle too many natural or forced abortions. So, take care of the body and use protection!
And if you are feeling guilt, don’t worry. The baby is in a better place, possibly even reincarnated (well, if you believe it’s a life in the first place). There should be absolutely no guilt with abortion. I mean, think of those past cultures who would bury babies alive. I say go for the least painful procedure.
If black America would be a country it would sink. Look at Haiti. Unless we became extremely unified like dprk, but you see the issues they have with their starving people. But maybe if we closed our borders tight and did only for ourselves it may possibly work? Who knows.
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Fancyface wrote
Black men have absolutely no respect or regards for black women, while they would kiss the floor the women of other races step on, while the men of those other races adore their women.
@ shady grade:
If you truely love yourself and you’re sick, you will seek medical attention, inorder to help you of your ailments. But when you continue to deny your illness, it will not terminate on its own, rather, it will encroach, overwhelm, and destroy you.
I’m not sure if you are capable to understanding my analogy, but I just felt that I should throw it out there anyway.
Ok, see this is why it is often useless to attempt to debate/discuss issues with people that are full of hate.
The first statement is simply untrue as a matter of fact while the second one is the very definition of an ad hominem attack which I thought was supposed to be discouraged on this board. Newsflash-people CAN disagree or see things differently than you without being accused of being sick or being unable to understand you. That’s projection on your part.
The overwhelming majority of Black American men who marry, marry Black women. The overwhelming majority of Black American men who have children, have children with Black women. The overwhelming majority of of Black American men who live with a woman, live with a Black woman. Those black men who have girlfriends, tend to have black ones. That does not indicate , to put it mildly, that Black American men have no respect or regard for Black women. That is indeed an untrue statement and makes about as much sense as claiming the sun rotates around the earth.
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jorbia wrote
I would never pat ANY woman on the back for having OOW children. NEVER! But it’s normal for women to want to have children at some point. If the men who they socialize with won’t marry them, then would you say these women should NEVER have children? Just asking.
From reading the comments of BM on various sites, it seems that the BW is expected to be the ONLY one responsible for contraception. BM don’t seem to hold other BM accountable at all. Their rationale is that it’s the woman who will be left holding the bag (baby), but IMO, that’s a scummy response because that bio dad is an adult in most cases the same as the woman. Most important is that the infant is a human being who is being dropped by the man like a piece of trash, yet that same BM screams for mercy if a white cop bashes him in the head. Where’s was that BM’s mercy for his child?
What kind of adult human being can just drop his seed and not look back? Mind you that I would say the same thing if it were a woman doing this. I’m really trying to understand that type of mentality. And please don’t tell me that all or most of these BM are actually supporting their children and that others just think they’re not. That’s the newest bogus excuse that some BM are claiming–the “phantom” father defense. Even IF these men were providing all of that financial support, young children equally need emotional involvement from their dads and PROTECTION from bad other people.
The reason I said it always comes back to the “evil black man” with you is that it does. The original post really doesn’t in and of itself have anything to do with gender issues yet here you are again making huge generalizations and accusations about black men.
Again, it takes TWO to tango. Unless you want to argue that all of these women were raped, their contraception all failed or they are uniquely vulnerable to being talked out of their clothes and thus need protection provided by the state, they all made a decision at some point to lay down with someone before marriage and without protection.
That’s a stupid decision. If done repeatedly over time it leads to the sort of numbers we see today.
Both men and women are equally responsible for these stupid decisions. I will not blame one more than the other.
If women were more discriminating with who they let in their body AND men were more worried about who they knocked up this situation wouldn’t exist.
But putting all the blame on men as you and some other women here tend to do is a non-starter. Anyway, as the saying goes, her body, her choice. Logically that would also indicate that if the child is NOT the man’s choice and he had no say about it being born or not, and wasn’t even married to the woman beforehand, maybe the new mother shouldn’t expect to count on too much help from the father-anymore than a man who knocks up the town tramp should expect that she will be a great mother.
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The issue of preference for lighter skin tones among women is something that both predates and is aggravated and magnified by worldwide European dominance. It won’t be going away anytime soon. I don’t know of any society where all else equal darker skin is considered more feminine.
But that doesn’t change the fact millions of dark skin women marry, reproduce and live their lives out as happily as they can-with men of any race that love them. Getting bent out of shape about what millions of people think is silly. All that matters is what a significant other thinks.
In short, dark skinned Black American women are getting married and reproducing -just like anyone else. Being obsessed with changing beauty standards is quixotic.
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@ Shady_Grady
The issue of preference for lighter-skinned employees has been an established trend, worldwide. European dominance may be partly to blame, but so what of it?. It won’t be going away anytime soon. I don’t know of any society where, all else being equal, darker skin is considered a bonus to any employer.
But that doesn’t change the fact that millions of dark-skinned people find work, make a salary, and live their lives out as happily as they can-with the jobs that are left to them. Getting bent out of shape about what millions of people think about the Black work force is silly. All that matters is that you have some kind of job.
In short, dark-skinned Black Americans are getting work and are getting paid -just like anyone else. Being obsessed with the fact that others have a significant advantage over you and are valued more highly, based on their skin tone, is quixotic.
Stop discussing the issue and advocating for change. Acceptance of “the way things are” is much better.
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@Shady Grady–
The issue of preference for lighter skin tones among women is something that both predates and is aggravated and magnified by worldwide European dominance.
Has this ever been PROVEN or is someone simply seasoning their theories to meet their needs? I say that because I saw once on a site where a man who obviously was a lover of pale skin posted a link and EVERYONE of the pale skin lovers seem to have grabbed that link.
And IF you could site sufficient and valid proof of what you’re saying, then this says that black women need to be sure to have as few dark skinned daughters as possible because these girls will be ranked as less feminine than a woman with my complexion. Why would black women continue to put themselves through this?
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About this supposed connection between being a black woman and supposedly having higher testosterone and being viewed as less feminine, I never even heard about any of this before I started coming to this site.
According to what is being said here, I can never hope to be viewed to be as feminine as any white woman or any Asian woman. If I have daughters one day, they won’t be viewed as equally feminine either.
If this theory could actually be proven, then this is a major handicap for black women and yet some men are saying that black women shouldn’t even worry our less-feminine heads about it. This does trickle down to reduce and affect the potential significant others that black women meet or don’t meet. Maybe this is a key factor in why some black women don’t make better choices in men.
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“In his foreword to Peter Frost’s 2005 Fair Women, Dark Men, University of Washington sociologist Pierre L. van den Berghe writes: “Although virtually all cultures express a marked preference for fair female skin, even those with little or no exposure to European imperialism, and even those whose members are heavily pigmented, many are indifferent to male pigmentation or even prefer men to be darker.”
Also
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/men-women–the-secrets-of-skin-colour-796610.html
On average women are somewhat lighter complected than men in every group. So it makes sense that over time a group might associate lighter skin and femininity. The problem is that this has now gotten cross-wired with European cultural hegemony and bigotry so that something could be subtle is now mixed up (permanently?) with racism, self-hatred and self-abnegation.
However that doesn’t change the fact that life is not fair when it comes to beauty standards and skin tone is just one of a myriad of traits which people include in their estimation of each other. Getting obsessed with it is silly. The world is full of beautiful women of every conceivable complexion.
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@King
In the US we do make allowances for the state or individuals to have an action against a business or state actor that discriminates unfairly in their hiring or promotion. Within certain frameworks we even think it just that a business or state entity be encouraged or even forced to go out of their way to hire or promote people that were discriminated against or underrepresented.
That is PUBLIC.
There is no state remedy for PRIVATE desire. If a given man happens to prefer blondes or light skinned black women or if another woman won’t look seriously at a man unless he’s an over 6 foot Caucasian or if someone is only interested in dating and marrying people of their particular ethnic/religious background there is absolutely nothing that the state can or should do about that. Private desires are not under the state’s bailiwick.
That’s the difference. Unless you really want the state to start interfering in such intimate details as who people are sleeping with or dating, I suggest you just accept it.
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Shady Grady, this is the SAME link that I’ve seen cited over and over. Just this ONE.
Also, how comprehensive was this research or in other words, how valid is this ONE piece of research?
I could pick this to pieces, but why bother?
The bottom line is that BAM are free to be with ANY woman they choose and BAW have the same freedom.
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@ Shady
My comment was not meant to argue that employment inequity and dating inequity were the exact same thing.
Even when comparing oranges with oranges, there are differences between Navel and Valencia.
My point was that people have the right to advocate against inequity, simply because it is unfair. Nobody should go around telling people, “Well, it’s unfair, and it effects you (not me) but why don’t you just accept it?”
Nothing so far that has changed for Black people has changed because the people involved just accepted it, didn’t expect anything better, and kept their mouths shut.
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Actually Jorbia I don’t think you could pick that to pieces, based on your writings so far.
The same data is discussed and used in “The Science of Beauty” by Nancy Etcoff, “The Red Queen” by Matt Ridley, “Why is Sex Fun” by Jared Diamond, and “The Evolution of Desire” by David Buss and obviously the Peter Frost book.
Women are on average somewhat lighter in skin tone than men in every group. Fact.
No one is free to be with anyone they choose. They are free to be with anyone they choose and who also chooses them. No one is preventing Black women from choosing white men. But as the Census figures show, generally whites and Blacks (in America) do not choose each other. Out of the relatively small proportion number of B/W interracial marriages White men and Black women choose each other less frequently than Black men and White women do. This is changing but likely part of the reason for it involves the beauty ideals which dismay you so.
Again, Black men have NOTHING to do with who white men choose as partners so much of the ire directed at black men over some people feeling less than really is quite misplaced.
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King wrote
My point was that people have the right to advocate against inequity, simply because it is unfair. Nobody should go around telling people, “Well, it’s unfair, and it effects you (not me) but why don’t you just accept it?”
Where is the inequity in the fact that most people end up dating, marrying or reproducing with people that look like them?
Where is the inequity in the fact that some features are considered pretty by some groups and others are not?
How is “dating inequity” measured?
What is your solution for this so-called “dating inequity”?
How do you intend to make people date or marry in the proportion which would make you happy?
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“Where is the inequity in the fact that some features are considered pretty by some groups and others are not?”
What does inequity mean?
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I think there is a lot of social inertia that continues to push societies and cultures in the direction that they have always moved.
The world has always been a much larger place than it is today. The VAST majority of people in the past centuries never travelled 50 miles from where they were born.
Yes, people coupled with people who looked like them because that was their only choice. It became a part of their thinking – something they were expected to do. People who did not look like you were considered, “other.”
But today (in the urban centers of the first world) all of that is rapidly changing. Young people are much more accepting of the idea of dating people who do not look like them, phenotypically. In my opinion, this is happening whether everyone else likes it of not. However, the process may be accelerated by challenging old ideas about pigeonholing “what is attractive” and what is “other.”
To do so is legitimate, especially for those who are currently being assessed at a lower value than others. Why shouldn’t they try to change minds?
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I thought this thread was about a hypothetical black American nation. How did it become a thread about skin tone and interracial marriage??
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Tulio wrote :
“I thought this thread was about a hypothetical black American nation. How did it become a thread about skin tone and interracial marriage??”
That’s a great question. I noted that upthread.
SG: “The original post really doesn’t in and of itself have anything to do with gender issues yet here you are again making huge generalizations and accusations about black men.”
It went down that path because the below posters can’t stop talking about their own obsessions and issues around skin tone, IR dating/marriage, beauty and how crappy black men are-no matter WHAT the subject of the day is. See below.
fancyface
@ Joriba:
You and I speak in one tongue. Yes you’re right, the need to solve more pressing needs is the way to go. We have these major problems that we continue to trivialize and deny, which remain unsolved, and now, we want to step over that to talk of creating a country? Black men have absolutely no respect or regards for black women, while they would kiss the floor the women of other races step on, while the men of those other races adore their women. You’re absolutely right in your comment.
jorbia wrote
@Patricia Kayden–
I wonder if we will ever live in a world where the majority of BM and BW marry before having children and raise children in stable two-parent homes. I guess Africans living in Africa are the last Blacks actually doing this.
The reality is that it’s MAINLY BW who want to marry before having children. It’s mainly BW who care about stable families. Most BW want that a whole lot, but the greatest portion of BM obviously don’t want to marry, don’t marry, and don’t care about stable families. If they did, they would marry and commit to their children.
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“To do so is legitimate, especially for those who are currently being assessed at a lower value than others. Why shouldn’t they try to change minds?”
I don’t think it is at all legitimate to get personally offended by the fact that people tend to prefer their own kind or that beauty standards exist and I don’t see at all what any of that discussion has to do with a thought experiment about what a separate Black country would look like.
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@Shady Grady–
I don’t think it is at all legitimate to get personally offended
But are you in charge of what offends others? Are you in charge of this site? And I could certainly point out some things that I don’t think you should be offended by and obviously I’ve offended you because that’s why you and some others keep trying to shut me up and other black women up. You’re hollering like a hit dog.
It seems like there are some wannabe dictators here?
I don’t see at all what any of that discussion has to do with a thought experiment about what a separate Black country would look like.
It is a perfectly valid response to this topic for BAW to point out that they would be hesitant to go to such a black country if white beauty ideals are going to be imported there. Obviously I touched some nerves among those who uphold the complexion hierarchy. Or are BAW to be gagged here if we express how we really feel?
The same data is discussed and used in “The Science of Beauty” by Nancy Etcoff, “The Red Queen” by Matt Ridley, “Why is Sex Fun” by Jared Diamond, and “The Evolution of Desire” by David Buss and obviously the Peter Frost book.
So others are using that ONE piece of questionable research to support their own biases/preferences? 🙂 What else is new? Considering how the world has been racially structured, it is expected for many white, similar light others and light-skinned-preferring others to be making the argument you’re making because the current structure greatly favors the lightest people which includes all white people.
Lots of black men TOO are some of the primary upholders of that hierarchy, (though I can’t figure out how this benefits black men) so that’s why I wouldn’t want to go to the what-if black country that Agabond proposed.
Women are on average somewhat lighter in skin tone than men in every group. Fact.
This is a classic strawman. I could have cited that particular fact from the very beginning. 🙂 I agree that the overwhelming majority of females of any group are lighter than the overwhelming majority of the males. But, that is NOT the point and you know it.
Many black men (if they can) choose women who are many, many, many, many, many shades lighter than the paper bag–not just a woman who is a shade or two lighter than the man himself. This is nothing more than upholding the white complexion hierarchy. There was a rapper a few years ago who just came out and said, “I don’t like dark butts.” That was repugnant, but at least he was honest and didn’t throw up all kinds of straw men to hide behind.
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If Black people boycotted a retail area, that’s where I’d immediately take my patronage. Shoplifting would plunge, wouldn’t have to worry about fights breaking out, movie theatres would be quiet, restaurants would give better service the customers would all tip, women and the elderly wouldn’t get harassed, sales would rise, and profits would go up. What’s not to like?
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Most people are born with one face. I see others are born with two.
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@Nom De Plume
Most people are born with one face. I see others are born with two
🙂
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@Demerera:
—–
LMAO!
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Interesting idea to liken it so some of the Caribbean nations which are anglicized, but mostly of African descent — maybe like a temperate subtropical version of the Caribbean (as none of the area highlighted remains frost free for the entire winter). Both areas get hurricanes too.
Wonder what would happen to certain things, eg.
– how to share the Smoky Mountains with white Tennessee
– trade and commerce down the Mississippi River
– Water usage – would white America siphon off (or even pollute) all the water upstream in the Mississippi? I wonder if it would be like the Colorado River flowing into Mexico.
– would there be skirmishes between the offshore oilfields in Texas and Louisiana?
I suspect that it would become agricultural again, given its climate.
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I don’t think Trinidad is a good example, almost half the people there are Indians
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Just FYI, according to the latest census performed by Trinidad, Trinidad and Tobago is almost equal parts mixed race, African descent and Indian descent.
http://www.trinidadexpress.com/news/Census__Mixed_population_on_the_rise-191944721.html?m=y&smobile=y
http://www.guardian.co.tt/news/2013-02-22/uwi-lecturer-2011-census-mixed-race-figures-can-change-voting-pattern-tt
My opinion as a Trinidadian:
Actually, considering it a black run country is appropriate since the population for the majority of its fifty years of independence has been predominantly of African descent. The growth in the part of the population of Indian descent has not gotten to a point where they are the majority contrary to the comments on this post.
Agabond’s comparison still stands and is valid.
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Reblogged this on D.Wright’s Weblog and commented:
Interesting…
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Black people have always wanted their own nation here in this land.
The lie is that Americans were the only ones that fought and died to from their own nation here.
The truth is that so did we; we have yearned our own seperate nation in this land since 1660.
Even after electing a black president, we still want our own country in this land.
We may not have our country yet, but we already are a nation.
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Another the correct name is Alkebulan. Africa is a eurpeoan name. Let’s move foward and call ourselves what we are Alkebulonians.
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You already have two negro homelands. Liberia, a colony for American blacks & Sierra Leone for the Carribean blacks. Invest your capital there and migrate, you have as much natural resources there, as you need to make a profit.
With the combined population of 50 million english speaking people, you’ll easily take over the government there.
If it’s true the iq is higher, you’ll be running circles around the 10 million locals. Just keep them divided.
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You are assuming that a black nation would have the same level of social services to maintain the social standards blacks in America have right now. It wouldn’t, because there would not be anywhere near the level of tax revenue paid mostly from rich whites and white owned corporations to pay for schools, hospitals, pensions, police, and everything else.
If black America was a country it would be maybe slightly better than any African country.
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So are you asserting that black people in the US don’t pay any tax? I think there might be a few flaws in your argument.
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To clarify: my comment was directed @ Jason.
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@Jason
If “white” America were a country.. it would be barely better than most failing Euro countries.
Let’s not pretend that all white countries are prosperous. Just look at Greece, the once golden child for whites, now looking like the Detroit of Europe
Also… African countries are emerging. If they weren’t, there wouldn’t be so many white immigrants leaving there wonderful country to live in shitty ol Africa.
Your entire premise is flawed, to say the least.
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The GDP per capita data on Trinidad & Tobago is incorrect, their GDP is only about 17 K as opposed to about 24 K for Black America, a significant disparity. According to these numbers Black America is the 17th wealthiest nation on earth. The relational poverty of Black America to the rest of America; is more of a function of out of wedlock birth rates not discrimination.
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African American Homeland Association
The key to Political, Economic and Government Power is control of State Institutions.
I claim North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Louisiana, Arkansas, Tennessee the African American Homeland.. To Acquire these 8 Southern State Institutions, I suggest we make a modern day mass migration back to the 8 Southern States.
36 million Black Americans flooding into the eight states would create disorder, causing 75% of the white population to flee those 8 States. We will have 80% majority of the population. Then we will vote in 8 Black Governors, 16 Black Senators, 66 Black Congressmen, 688 Counties are under Black control, 3,299 incorporated cities and town will mostly have Black Mayors, We will have control of the State Court and local court Systems, most of the judges are Black, the Prosecutors are Black. Duke Energy, Georgia Power, The Southern Company, Tennessee Valley Authority, Louisiana Power, Arkansas Power are all Black owned. Regional Fix line Company Black owned, regional Cell phone Company Black owned control 80% of the market, and so on. For More Information goto http://www.africanamericanhomeland.com
Similiar idea
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The African American Homeland Association prefers an Independent Black American Nation that includes the 8 Southern States and Florida. However, the compromise is the African American Homeland where Black American’s are in control of all 8 State Institutions.
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Southern states such as Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina and North Carolina are economic powerhouses for the .000000008% of the world. How many RICH black folks do you see running around in the south. DIRT POOR is the word I would say along with crime ridden neighborhoods. Take away the economic power houses that are WHITE and leave the black folks with the knowledge that has led to laws requiring desegragation or affirmative action requiring schools to take students not based on academics, but rather COLOUR of skin. .
What a country ‘Black amerika’ would be.
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Shananda Sharil
You either know little avout black in the south or you are seeking attention by providing misinformed information. Blacks in the south are not dirt poor and many of the wealthy live in Atlanta. Do better research.
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Kiwi
Rofl!!
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What a curious thought experiment. The idea itself doesn’t make much sense, but the practicalities and analogies do raise a lot of questions.
I’m wondering if, considering the crime rates in black neighborhoods, Black America would have been a much more violent country; similar to how Africa is generally much more violent – publicly-wide, and not just the state.
http://www.AssafKoss.com
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Assaf Koss
I’m guessing you only k own a few black neighborhoods. If any and that is all based on what crime stats say about them right?
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@ Assaf Koss
That was a joke, right? White Americans are among the most violent people in history. How do you think they got all their land? Look at their police – who shoot first and ask questions later. Look at their foreign policy – which bombs first and asks questions later. They freak out about ISIS, al-Qaeda and Boko Haram and overlook THEIR own destruction of Vietnam, Iraq and Native America, of Hiroshima, Dresden and (by way of Mini-Me Israel) Gaza.
I used to live in a very violent part of New York City, that was mostly Black, only to find out later that it was flooded with crack to pay for the Contra War in Nicaragua – a small fact that Time magazine left out. Since then the homicide rate there has dropped by half – credited, of course, to Mayor Giuliani’s badly trained, trigger-happy police, while Time magazine scolded Blacks for their lack of moral values.
See also:
.
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The Atlantic just did their take on this topic:
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/10/what-if-black-america-were-a-country/380953/
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Couple problems with the we are best suited to run ourselves based on IQ.
1. Average Black American IQ is 85 not 89 and the average IQ for a black african is 45 NOT 70. Huge behavioral differences make either of these IQ’s problematic.
2. If the use of drugs, and it’s increase over the past 50 years, is taken into account then that average black american has an IQ of mid to high 70’s. NOT good.
3. You mention only one african country but failed to mention the other 53 countries (there are 53 countries on that continent) and if you go back further than 50 years you will note that during the past 200 years no country in africa has been war-free, i.e., the old saying “me and my clan against the country” seems a retentive truism.
Finally, the use of drugs (albeit naturally occurring) on that continent by indigenous peoples along with a predilection towards violence makes self-rule for them questionable and “home rule” for black americans a real problem.
How would you like to be treated like any other waring country by the US government when spread out and anonymous seems a better option.
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@Kiwi
ROFL. Oh wow…..
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“Apparently, not much IQ is needed to obtain a PhD.”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
STANDING WHILE APPLAUDING!!!
🙂
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In my lifetime, my parents’ lifetimes, my grandparents’ lifetimes and their parents’ lifetimes, the USA has never been war free. And I don’t think it was black Americans who were waging the wars.
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@ Jefe
Right. I think their predilection towards violence makes self-rule for them questionable and “home rule” for white americans a real problem.
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This is Our Country!
Nepotism vs Tribalism
When I ask this question:
( Disclaimer: My use of the term White America is not to indict all White Americans of European descent, but to address a false perception to the World that all is racially fine in the USA.)
If and when will White America begin to realize that Black Americans are their only true ally left in the Non-White World?
The other destructive N …word in America is “Nepotism”!
Unless you live in a bubble or you are on a pedestal with your head in the clouds, the Corporate Media is full of bias, disparaging and dishonorable images of all of Black America that is being perpetrated Worldwide; but not including the reported cases of their race based discriminating practices, you are uninformed or you are ingenuous.
In light of the documented, disenfranchising economic condition undermining Black Americans, “We African / Americans are a family and it is time that we begin working toward our own family’s interests. The idea that, “Charity begins at home” is not separatism nor selfishness. The neglecting of ourselves and relying on others to provide for us nurtures that negative perception other families have of our community.”
Now, our so called Black Elitist need to stop trying to Fitting-In, “What they don’t realize that They are serious when They say, that no matter which ethnic group referring, we all look alike to THEM?”
Our Black Achievers should return some of their blessings, whether it is wealth and or intellect, and reinvest in the neighborhoods that were abandoned after Affirmative Action.
I believe it is time for White America to realize we are a Western Hemisphere Tribe, made up of many families, separated by oceans, cultures, customs and religions.
To a lot of the rest of The World, We All are the Ugly Americans!
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