Bethany Storro (c. 1982- ) is a white American woman who made news across the country when she said that a black woman she never met before threw acid in her face outside a Starbucks on August 30th 2010.
She appeared on television and told her story, her head completely covered in white bandages with just holes for her eyes and mouth. She said that but for the hand of God she would have been blind – just 20 minutes before she had bought a pair of sunglasses, which saved her eyes. Letters and money poured in.
And on the Internet ugly, racist comments against black women poured out: “hang the baboon from a tree” and so on.
Storro said that at 7:15 pm she was walking into a Starbucks in Vancouver, Washington, a suburb of Portland, Oregon. A black woman came up to her and said, “Hey pretty girl, do you want to drink this?” Storro noticed the woman had “this weirdness about her – like jealousy, rage.” Storro said no and the woman threw the drink in her face. The acid burned into her skin.
She told this to the police but thought they would do little. Wrong: they stretched their force thin, spending hundreds of hours looking for the assailant:
- They stopped and detained black women for questioning. No luck.
- They talked to witnesses who saw her fall down and scream. No one saw any assailant.
- They went to the shop where she bought the sunglasses: there was no record of such a sale.
- They talked to the doctor at the hospital. He said the acid was either poured on or rubbed in, not thrown at her face.
After searching her place they questioned her for an hour and a half. At last she admitted to it: she had rubbed drain cleaner on her face with a towel. She said she was trying to kill herself.
Even after she was caught in her lie many continued to feel sorry for her!
She is a liar and a thief: She spent $1,500 of the $28,000 she tricked out of well-wishers, some of it on “stuff at Target”, some of it on the $620 she owed for a laser peel she had done on her face earlier in August.
She faces three felony charges as a thief and could get up to five years in prison.
As to the whole phantom black assailant thing, that needs a post of its own. This is merely the latest example.
Since Storro was lying she had to make her story believable – which means she thinks white people believe:
- Blacks appear out of nowhere and hurt white people just to be cruel.
- Black women have a violent hatred for white women because of their pretty looks.
Jill Tubman of Jack & Jill Politics offers this rule:
If a random, shocking and unusual crime happens to someone or their kids and they blame a random black person who came out of nowhere, can we all just suspend belief enough to investigate?
See also:
I’m surprised she didn’t claim it was Obama, actually.
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I just saw something in the express that basically wanted to throw remarks at a black woman for using her husbands handicapped card, but what about this lady huh? Where is the backlash for her? In fact does America and whites think Black women r going to say oh its okay ur lie didn’t put any of our grandmothers, mothers, sister’s, daughter’s, wives, neices, cousins and so on in harms way. See thats the problem with alot of white people, they think Blacks envy them and they have this perverse fear of Blacks that come mostly from their own imagination. They fear we r going to do to them what they have done to our ancestor’s for years. The lady and her nonsense should receive life in prison, she lied to police, heck Black ppl smoke weed and get life in jail. For some reason I see this as a new trend for the 2010-2011 to come, smdh!
Jealous rage?! she should be slapped.
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Lemme pull up a “pet theory” from a so-called “HBDer/race-realist” on this topic…
http://glpiggy.wordpress.com/2010/09/02/acid-attacks-jealousy-and-race/
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I do have a violent hatred of the propaganda surrounding WW so-called pretty looks. I hate the fact that simply because you possess light skin, blue eyes and blonde hair that somehow you are beautiful independent of any other characteristic, e.g., figure and features. It is infuriating when you’re more attractive by every measure than some bone skinny bottle blonde, and everybody thinks she’s the *ish JUST BECAUSE she has blonde hair and blue eyes. Most black women know better even when the media keeps drumming it into your head that they look better and that black women are masculine, ugly apes. And may I say, that nobody by any stretch would consider Bethany Storro pretty. I hope her ugly a** rots in jail.
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Now I have to see this garbage Myspace-esque picture every time I visit the homepage for the next day or so? Ugh.
“I hate the fact that simply because you possess light skin, blue eyes and blonde hair that somehow you are beautiful independent of any other characteristic”
Agreed. It just boggles the mind. Reminds me of how the author Leora Tanenbaum stated “If a woman is young, thin, white, she has the chance to pass muster for attractive in this country.” The truth of that just keeps hitting home every day. I personally thought “Umm, she’s the ‘pretty girl’?” when I first saw her. She’s really not attractive, IMO. But she’s white (?), so that makes up for all.
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Oh, but Abagond, Storro was right: white people DO believe blacks are violent enough to attack random people and that black women are so jealous of white women.
poetess,
I agree. Like I said elsewhere, I don’t understand what’s a big deal about white women or what makes them (all of them, as a group) so hot and irresistible like media claims them to be.
Plus, note that Bethany Storro is not blonde or blue eyed. (Not that it matters… I’m just saying.)
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^Yeah, that’s why she’s “pretty” and not “beautiful”.
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How about the cop in Philadelphia who shot himself and blamed it on a nonexistent black man…
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2010/05/12/Philly-cop-shot-himself-probe-shows/UPI-80921273681313/
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Yeah, that’s why she’s “pretty” and not “beautiful”.
lol
But seriously, people… Everybody (who is white) BELIEVED her. As if it’s just a proof of what they all seem to believe: black people just go around violently attacking random whites on the street. “That’s just how they are, you know? They are all violent and they all hate us!”
I can totally see this happening with a Roma person in my country.
Another thing is black woman jealousy, which is another thing everybody (who is white) seems to buy. It’s obvious to them that black women are/should be jealous of white women. Even if said white women are of average appearance.
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Nor was she particularly pretty.
Just sayin’…
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Nor was she particularly pretty.
Just sayin’…
Well, true. This seems to be the general conclusion. What we think is not relevant, but there is a reason to believe Storro didn’t have a high opinion on her physical appearance.
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Whites have BEEN doing this for a very long time. They used to masquerade as native Americans and raid their OWN settlements just to have a reason to start a war. Let us not forget “Rosewood” where a whole town was murdered and decimated because a pale woman decided to cry “foul” on some imaginary Black assailant. You have the doctor who shot his wife, the woman who drowned her own children in a car, the policeman who shot himself, the man who wore an elaborate Hollywood mask of a Black man to rob a bank (who was of foreign descent, yet still able to pick up on the racial clues in this country), the woman who claimed two Black men kidnapped her and her child…just to be found later at Disney World.
I thought you all knew. Blame a Negroid is their favorite game. They know the rules and they know that no matter how elaborate the lie..how fantastic, or fact light the story, it MUST be believed because that’s the way “Blame a Nigger” is played.
The antics of the calcified pineal gland.
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A few articles report that she visited a plastic surgeon prior to her “attack”. And $28,000 is more than enough for several facial procedures… Well, at least white people could believe a black woman would be jealous of someone who is so desperate for plastic surgery they’d rub acid on their face.
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Right, she was unhappy with her looks and yet still thought that black women would think she was “pretty”.
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Thanks for this, Abagond.
Other than the Portland police bitching about spending $12,000 on her investigation, where IS the outcry? Things went awfully silent when she revealed she was lying.
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Dumb broad.
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well i want her dumbass in jail. sorry for the language but why include black women in this? i think white women are beautiful but they’re not the end-all, be-all when it comes to beauty. this bitch needs to go to jail. no sympathy for me at all. what possessed woman would throw acid on her and then claim she’s mentally ill? please this woman is dumb and want attention. to hell with her and i don’t care what anyone says.
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Amanda, poetess, Natasha W.,
Your comments regarding the DELUSIONAL, RACIST, ANTI-BW mindset in America that OVERHYPES WW’s “beauty” at the expense of BW’s beauty are so on point. It bothers me that this LYING, RACIST, ANTI-BW POS had the nerve to invent her self serving nonsense and that WP were more than willing to buy into her BS.
EVERYONE in America needs to LEARN that BW are NOT “JEALOUS” of ANY WW. We’re just sick and tired of the historical ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE we’re forced to deal with that CONSTANTLY TRASHES our HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY.
BW/PRO-BW advocates have to continue working to DESTROY this brand of ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE.
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Well, obviously, there are beautiful white women, but it’s not the point.
The point is this sick assumption that blacks would go around attacking random people with no reason (apart from their wild mentalities) AND that all black women are jealous of white women.
The worst thing here is the fact many whites BELIEVED this story. I understand that the police had to investigate, but it seems like everybody believed her. Not to mention Internet was full of horrible, horrible posts concerning black women and black people in general, and some black women living in the area of the attack feared to go out for days.
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“The defense attorney for a Vancouver woman who falsely claimed a stranger threw acid in her face says the woman will plead not guilty to theft charges when she appears in court Wednesday.
“…Storro is accused of accepting donations after claiming a woman had splashed her with acid on Aug. 30. Police say she later admitted putting drain cleaner on her face.
“Prosecutors say Storro spent about $1,500 of the nearly $28,000 donated to her.”
~ from OregonLive.com
Come again?
This woman walks off with $28,000 of people’s money (during a recession, no less) tax-free, gained from lying to authorities and the public…and she’s pleading not guilty to theft?
You know…white [racist] America really needs to pay attention to this one. Because people can argue whether Storro’s crazy or not, dumb or not, or even racist or not, but it won’t change the fact she was clever enough to manipulate and milk white American racism for $28,000.
Those who still stand by her and feel sympathy for her deserve to be ripped off. I think their punishment for believing that ish is to not get their money back. Let her keep it. Lord knows her attorney’ll be needing it….
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Looks like African Black Militant has got himself a proxie. Sigh…
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Thad:
Who do you mean?
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Whitesarealbinos has been posting on and off for a while now. He/She is no proxy
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I’m a female and need not to be a sock puppet for someone else. Why do some people assume that there is one lone voice of dissent. Perhaps there was fault you found with my comment? Why are some people so vague? Sigh..
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just leave the poor lady alone
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The Bluest Eye – Toni Morrison
Whiteness as the Standard of Beauty
The Bluest Eye provides an extended depiction of the ways in which internalized white beauty standards deform the lives of black girls and women. Implicit messages that whiteness is superior are everywhere, including the white baby doll given to Claudia, the idealization of Shirley Temple, the consensus that light-skinned Maureen is cuter than the other black girls, the idealization of white beauty in the movies, and Pauline Breedlove’s preference for the little white girl she works for over her daughter. Adult women, having learned to hate the blackness of their own bodies, take this hatred out on their children
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^^^
I just ordered that book on Friday(along with Fanon and the Autobiography of Malcolm X). I can’t wait to read it.
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Oyan, ummm…
The worst part about this is that people are actually thinking black women are walking around feeling jealous of white women. I mean, really. I don’t want any white woman looking at me like I’m supposed to be jealous of her; that’s just ridiculous (I doubt they would though, because I have the secret weapon *winks at witchsistah, when/if she arrives*).
Ndifreke, I hope that was directed towards the commenter above you and not to the subject of this post.
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Natasha,
I agree. Though I must admit I’d love to read “The Bluest Eye”. Toni Morrison is one of my favourite authors. I doubt the point of the book was that black women envy white women.
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@ Ankhesen. You are so right, girl. In addition, maybe this woman is part of a fringe party or far far right political group that believes that President Obama and other people of color need to have their rights supressed in some way.
This incident reminds me of what Dr. Joy DeGruy Leary discussed in her lectures about a phenomenon called, Post Traumatic Slave Syndrome. One example she used was how the slave master would use all kinds of physical and pyschological manipulations to keep slaves in their place. Slaves were stifled, but learned how to cope. Blacks continued their coping mechanisms throughout the Jim Crow law era and beyond. Now that we have a biracial president, people like Storro are stirring the racism pot again.
The American Black race and black women specifcally must be deligent in their efforts to keep their self-esteem intact. Black woman remain strong.
D. E. Love@ bwoutofthebox.wordpress.com
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Mira, the Bluest Eye isn’t a bad book. I read it so looonnngg ago though; I think in elementary school. But I just don’t get how it’s at all relevant to this post — it’s not like Storro’s original story was true.
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You know there’s some humor in all this. The reason why everyone chimed in with their hate filled comments and the donations is the same reason why the police but such effort into finding her assailant, I guess she didn’t bargain on whiteness being the nail in the coffin of her little plot.
Let her keep the cash, 28 grand doesn’t go that far today, especially for shallow egomaniacs, but send her butt to prison, let’s see how “purty” she is in there.
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@ Natasha W and Mira ….I agree on the doubt that the point of Morrison’s book was bw jealousy, but more on the incessant bombardment of this message. This theme is repeated in ‘Song of Solomon’ which imo, is a masterpiece, in regards to the character,’Hagar’. I am fairly confient that most/many bw are not at all jealous, but annoyed, beyond aggravation. Besides, I read on another ‘black’ themed message board, thst the ‘real’ threat to bw was latino women lol!
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Indeed. And like I said elsewhere, even if it were true (that a black woman did this to a random person), it’s funny how nobody simply concluded something along the lines of “the attacker was probably mentally ill”. Noooo. It HAD to be a typical “angry black woman” full of jealousy, because that’s how black people are.
And after Storro’s story revealed to be fake, everybody’s so sure that the girl is crazy. Her mental state aside, what about all those sick online messages and virtual lynch mobs? What about all those people who believed her story straight away?
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@Natasha W on “But I just don’t get how it’s at all relevant to this post — it’s not like Storro’s original story was true.”
It is agreed that Storro’s story was untrue; but it’s foundation was premised or structured on three points:
1. that black Americans in general, are randomly violent,
2, bw are jealous of ww ‘beauty’.
3.blacks, in this case bw, may unleash their violent anger, rage and ‘jealousy’ on unsuspecting ‘pretty white women’..
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Right, I got that… and how does that relate the book to this post, about a white woman making up a story about how a black woman attacked her? Peripherally?
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How can there be outrage over this stunt, when she is probably just mentally unstable and needs help? *rolls eyes* That’s the other card that tends to get pulled alot. Mental instability is worthy of sympathy and an excuse pass when a white person does something heinous. If it’s a black person, they are not just crazy but evil, and needs to be locked up immediately for life. Also, it is not seen as an individual issue, but the whole ethnicity is placed under scrutiny.
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It kills me that she, and the WP who are caught doing this, are not sufficiently made an example of. No one gives a shit about the true victims of the crimes.
Does anyone know of anyone to write to about what this does?
It’s one of those things that is so damaging socially that the repercussions will be something no one will want, not even the WP who get out of this stuff unscathed (unless they splash themselves with acid, of course).
Abagond, when you do your phantom black assailants post, Ankh’s site has an excellent compilation of links of more cases of it. One more to add to that is the Duluth Lynchings – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duluth_lynchings (graphic photo on page).
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@Natasha W
Right, I got that… and how does that relate the book to this post, about a white woman making up a story about how a black woman attacked her? Peripherally?..”
I understand that you do not get my point; but my question is, have you read ‘The Bluest Eye’? If you have not, than that might explain why you do’nt get the connection. I am working from a specific point in the accusation of Ms. Storro, ie. the claim that she claimed that the phantom black woman , called out, ‘hey pretty girl’, with a face of ‘rage, anger and jealousy, which connects to the widely held perceptions(beliefs) of the ‘unheralded beauty’ of white women, of which bw are indiscriminantly ‘jealous’ of, and which has been presented in this thread.
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@ bwoutofthebox
Thanks!
@ Victoria
Thank you for that – added the names to my list.
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@Abagond
Thad:
Who do you mean?
WhitePeopleHaveAlbinoTraits. Note their immediate leap to defend their status, even though I never mentioned them by name and there’s no logical reason whatsoever for them to presume my comments were directed at them.
Looks fishy to me. Just sayin’. And the same M.O., too. Link to a very whack, out there black militancy site which doesn’t have any obvious authorage.
You might want to send an e-mail over there and see if they aren’t being linked without their knowing it.
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Thad,
Of course I’m DEfensive. That’s what happens when someone is being needlessly OFFensive. It’s called cause and effect. A simple law of the Universe. You still haven’t addressed your exact complaint with my comment.
The “very whack out there militancy site” is usually what “other” people say when they mean a website that doesn’t mince the truth of how the world is observed through our eyes.
And please don’t play the obtuse card. You know very well the response was directed toward you because of Y’s mention of my name. Your comment WAS directed at me, was it not? The logical induction for this was Y’s comment. Was it an erroneous assumption? Please explain. I am intrigued as to your thought process.
Oh, there are plenty of other Black “militants”. You ARE aware of this, are you not? Assata Shakur, Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, Dr. Cress Welsing, ect. Perhaps they were all sock puppets for this other person you seem to hold a grudge for. 🙂
P.S.
Why is it when Black people are aware of their environment and voice their displeasure, they are called “militants”? Reminds me of when I read about Drapetomania. How strange for a slave to want to run away..how strange for a modern Black woman to voice her dissent. And rudely no less with no concern for the feelings of the whites.
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Y, poetess:
poetess comments on my blog and pretends that she doesn’t have animus towards white women, yet she constantly denigrates white womens’ looks at every turn. In fact, she made a comment at my blog where she said she’s not jealous of white women and I responded that I always hear black women make “Barbie” comments about white women whereas I don’t ever hear a white woman even discuss black womens’ looks. Then I come over here after I make that comment and find that poetess is talking about “bottle blondes”. Funny I predicted that.
Being jealous of the attention white women get and being jealous of only the traits white women possess is merely a distinction without a difference. either way, you poetess, don’t get to make the final decision as to who men end up going home with. and this pisses you off. if you were a person disposed to mental instability, who knows what you’d do to soothe that anger.
Fwiw, white men have committed all sorts of crimes against black men stemming from this very same animus. I’ve posted as well how the media likes to perpetuate images of black men and white women as part of some elitist drive to force the idea that those two groups go well together. Maybe they do and maybe they don’t, but filling young peoples’ heads with those ideas and imprinting on them is sort of presumptuous on the part of the media elite. See “O”, “Save the Last Dance”, “Real Chance at Love”, “For the Love of Ray-J” and the atrocious show featuring Chad Ochocinco.
Now, I can freely admit that there are some loony white men who can become angry and jealous over these things. If someone were to make that statement I couldn’t disagree that in general this would be true. Just as you shouldn’t be angry, Y, that I say this about black women – in general. If my point doesn’t apply to you then it doesn’t apply to you, and you have nothing to worry about. If it hits a nerve then you need to check yourself.
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@ Thad:
I think you are a bit too obsessed with hunting down sock puppets. If she were a proxy for Africanblackmilitant, her posts would be full of references to white people being devils, and anecdotes about how she likes beating up white men for fun. Which, as far as I know, she hasn’t done.
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I agree. I never got the feeling they were the same person.
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Plus, it’s difficult to change one’s style. Sentence construction, grammar/spelling mistakes, it’s all difficult to change/fake.
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Normally, I don’t respond to trolls, but this calls for a clarification…
Oh, there are plenty of other Black “militants”. You ARE aware of this, are you not? Assata Shakur, Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, Dr. Cress Welsing, ect. Perhaps they were all sock puppets for this other person you seem to hold a grudge for.
First of all, “militant” is not at all an offensive or wierd term to use in Portuguese, the language I speak 99% of the time. It simply means one who agitates for something.
Secondly, Bobby Seale and Assata Shakur had a scientific and informed analysis of history and racism which motivated their beliefs and actions. These folks hardly compare to Cress Welsing who seems to pull theories right out of her butt anytime she needs one. And a person who believes that racism is somehow due to insufficient melanin resonating to resonate the cosmic energies emanating from the mothership (or whatever) or “the antics of the calcified pineal gland” is a sci-fi nutter who doesn’t even deserve to be mentioned in the same breath with Seale and Shakur.
Again, I’d send a message to the website’s host and confirm that the person posting here is indeed it’s owner/operator.
But hey, it’s Abagond’s blog man and he does what he likes with it.
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There is a woman who did get attacked by someone who threw acid in her face in Arizona, Derri Verlade. It happend a few weeks after Bethany Storro and police thought it may have been a copycat at the time.
I belive it was a retalliation, this woman got attacked becasue a lie some foolish woman told. Whycan’t there be more focus on how Derri is doing?
The comments on the internet were just hateful and disgusting yet when it was revealed she was lying these same people want to say race has nothing to do about it. Yeah bloody right.
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SW6,
I don’t think she was suicidal, and I’ll refrain from discussing Storro’s mental state, but I do think she wanted to get the surgery and came up with a crazy plan to do it. Or she WAS suicidal… I have no idea.
But I see this thing not to be as much about her but about the people (whites in the first place) who didn’t react to her story with at least bit of a disbelief. They actually BELIEVED, without any doubt, that something like this is possible.
And remember, there was no explanation given for the actions of alleged attacker (they didn’t know each other, they didn’t fight in the past, “attacker” was not mentally ill). No. The only explanation was that it’s a black woman. Obviously, it was enough of an explanation for these people and solid enough proof. No further questions asked.
So if they say now Storro’s crazy, what does that make them?
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Oh and can you belive that some white people are still holding on to the lie saying how she is being a good forgiving christian woman and is defending the woman. Give me a bloody break!
It was applied like a face masked! FACTS IS FACTS. The evidence is all there the idiot admitted that it was all a big stinking lie. But I guess that pure white woman trope/stereotype is too hard to let go of.
——
I do not feel sorry for her at all she is a connving piece of work and used the pure white woman stereotype and her white priviledge to get what she wanted and is still using it to be a victim. “I wanted to kill myself *sob*”
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@SW6
Exactly, this story makes me laugh sometimes, she is average looking and obviously thinks she is not pretty at all but we black women must be jealous of her average looking self and all people who belived this story sooo much thought so too.
Get the fudge out of here with that banna split!
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The color of crime book on racial hoaxes I accidently posted it on a different page.
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lol @ Thaddeus
Burr up your ass much? I’m not this person you think I am. Everyone pretty much acknowledges it, but you are like a dog with a bone. I thought a troll incites argument by saying offensive things. Incites . You came after me and continue to do so. I’m apathetic towards this discussion since it doesn’t even apply to the thread at hand.
You’re original complaint was that I was someone else. I am not. End of story. Let it go.
Oh..and I am not the author of the website link nor did I claim to be. I wasn’t aware you needed to be the author to put a link to a website up. I looked at the commenting guidelines and didn’t see anything that pertained to that. If I did something that was not allowed, it was an honest mistake and I apologize to the Admin Abagond. Because it is indeed HIS website. And so far, I haven’t heard complaints from any but you.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What I DID want to add to the discussion was my observation that the police were so WILLING to spend this amount of money and stretch their force so thin. It was like a mad clamor to find some apparition that they all KNEW in their hearts to be true. I think this woman is a sociopath and absolutely without empathy. Never mind if an angry mob of whites could have attacked some poor innocent Black woman. Heaven knows that the comments I read from whites, luridly describing what they wanted to do to her, that they WANT to believe this about us. Have some kind of psychological NEED to believe this. This is a deep seated hatred. AND an acknowledgment that Blacks are INDEED suspect to whites at the drop of a hat. Or a drop of acid. They hate us like we’ve stolen them from their homelands, enslaved them, murdered them, denied them education and human rights. How strange. In a deeply horrifying way.
What absolutely positively got me was how she kept mentioning God and Jesus. What a self righteous hypocrite. Now her face matches her spirit.
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WhitePeopleHaveAlbinoTraits said:
“they WANT to believe this about us. Have some kind of psychological NEED to believe this.”
I agree.
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Oyan,
“I understand that you do not get my point; but my question is, have you read ‘The Bluest Eye’?”
Yes, see a few comments right before yours.
I understand what angle you’re working from, but it’s still not relevant to the post. A person should be exploring the psyche of a white woman who would make such a claim, not anyone else. But, sure, whatever.
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Chuck,
“poetess comments on my blog and pretends that she doesn’t have animus towards white women, yet she constantly denigrates white womens’ looks at every turn. In fact, she made a comment at my blog where she said she’s not jealous of white women and I responded that I always hear black women make “Barbie” comments about white women whereas I don’t ever hear a white woman even discuss black womens’ looks.”
As a black woman in a relationship with a white guy I can tell you that white woman do hold feelings about black women. I see their feelings every time they stare at me coldly or treat me curtly because I happen to be with a guy who shares their shortage of melanin. I see it every time a white woman “friend” is happy to hear about our romantic stories until they realize that’s he white. Don’t think for one second that white women aren’t insecure when someone or something challenges their position.
“Being jealous of the attention white women get and being jealous of only the traits white women possess is merely a distinction without a difference…
Fwiw, white men have committed all sorts of crimes against black men stemming from this very same animus.
Now, I can freely admit that there are some loony white men who can become angry and jealous over these things.”
Oh boy, how to deal with this lunacy…
So white men are also like black women, in that they are jealous of black men? It just works like that: black women are jealous of white women and white men are jealous of black men? Is that what you “HBD-ers” believe? You all need to step away from your computers and step more often into the real world. You’re heading off the deep end.
“If someone were to make that statement I couldn’t disagree that in general this would be true.”
🙄
Oh, of course! Of course a white man would be jealous of cheap, modern-day minstrel shows featuring white women! Of course, of course!
“Just as you shouldn’t be angry, Y, that I say this about black women – in general. If my point doesn’t apply to you then it doesn’t apply to you, and you have nothing to worry about. If it hits a nerve then you need to check yourself.”
No, it’s a problem. It’s a big problem.
When BS-ers like you jump on stories like this as a reason to vilify black women in general, that’s a problem for all black women. When as a result of your BS, people feel the need to again victimize victims, that’s a problem. If you can’t seem to understand how this situation and your frame of mind is a problem for all black women, then either you’re just that lacking in brainpower or you’re deliberately not comprehending.
Ain’t it a b.itch when black men encourage anti-black women racism.
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Mira,
“I don’t think she was suicidal, and I’ll refrain from discussing Storro’s mental state, but I do think she wanted to get the surgery and came up with a crazy plan to do it. Or she WAS suicidal… I have no idea.”
This chick wasn’t suicidal; if she were she’d have poured the acid down her throat instead of on her face. And she isn’t crazy, one might say she is quite clever, considering how well she cashed in on several of America’s racist beliefs in once fell swoop. If she’d only patched up her story, she’d be walking away with even more.
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Natasha W
Oyan,
I understand what angle you’re working from, but it’s still not relevant to the post. A person should be exploring the psyche of a white woman who would make such a claim, not anyone else. But, sure, whatever.
———————————————-
It’s not relevant to YOU, AND YOUR POINT. The point however, is relevant to ME, that is why I posted it. Not seeking your validation on what I find relevant in this discussion, but was engaging and contributing to this discussion on white women, black women and standards of beauty, based on the accusations of Stephanie Storro.
I strongly agree that “the psyche of a white woman who would make such a claim” is an excellent place for you to start your exploration, with regards to how women in western culture and specifically American culture, ‘understand’, see and value/devalue one another. I started, by introducing the tome by Morrison. eom.
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Indeed. It’s like watching a sick anthropological experiment on race.
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I agree with Natasha. White women DO care. They can be jealous, envy and even violent towards black women, ESPECIALLY if said black women are seen as better than themselves (in terms of looks), and especially if WHITE MEN are those who pick a black woman over them.
They might not express this the same way black woman do, but not in ways white women are more rational or objective, but in the way THEY and not black women, have privilege. So if you want to spot a white woman jealousy, watch for the privilege explosion towards black women.
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Oyan,… okay? Why are you getting excited? Can a person not ask you to clarify your point? Is that too much? Relax.
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Thanks Abagond for writing this post! You read my mind; I almost suggested this topic.
I’m surprised that anyone actually fell for this. Firstly, most acid attackers are men, not women. Secondly, acid attacks are usually premeditated; they are not impulsive crimes of passion carried out in a rage of jealousy (whatever that is). To me, these were clear signs that Storro was lying.
It’s depressing that so many people would buy into such a counter-intuitive, tall story, just so that they can affirm their beliefs that black women are ugly, jealous and crazed people.
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Those fools who sent Storro money deserve to lose that money.
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Natasha W:
So we’ve established that women are jealous of other women, and that jealousy can often fall along racial lines.
Now, let me ask you, which cohort of women is most likely to be jealous of the other given the particular sexual and social dynamics evident in this world? There is an added vector involved here; black women are angry and jealous towards the idea of a woman’s whiteness in general; where white women are jealous of black women, this isn’t the motivating factor for their jealousy.
Argument without an argument. Did you in any way refute my general point or did you produce a lot of froth and spittle hoping that would substitute for a salient position on the topic?
Which victim is being victimized? Black women are victims even before my post? Why?
By the way, you all missed my post where I compared Storro to Susan Smith.
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black women are angry and jealous towards the idea of a woman’s whiteness in general; where white women are jealous of black women, this isn’t the motivating factor for their jealousy.
So, basically, black women being jealous to whiteness is understandable reaction, but white women can’t possibly be jealous of blackness, because… ?
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chalk it up to white privilege if you want. white women have certain privileges afforded to them that black women don’t. the idea of whiteness takes on a set of characteristics of its own that some black women may feel angry towards.
you’d be hard pressed to find a white woman jealous of a black woman just because she’s black. it doesn’t work that way.
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Chuck,
“Now, let me ask you, which cohort of women is most likely to be jealous of the other given the particular sexual and social dynamics evident in this world?”
Given certain situations, the likelihood is equal.
“There is an added vector involved here; black women are angry and jealous towards the idea of a woman’s whiteness in general”
Black women are not thinking about white women, pretty much ever. Unless a topic/situation of race or whites somehow comes up, believe me, most black women aren’t worried about white women, let alone “angry” or “jealous” of them. And vice versa. Commenters on blogs and forums about race are not an accurate reflection of the average person, as one can easily glean from your blog full of delusional and/or virulently racist people.
“Argument without an argument. Did you in any way refute my general point or did you produce a lot of froth and spittle hoping that would substitute for a salient position on the topic?”
Do you really want to discuss black men being jealous and insecure in the face of white men? I didn’t see any reason at all to attempt to discuss that argument; I can barely see how you wrote that with a straight face. Do you seriously think white men are walking around jealous of you? Or are you just saying that for the lulz? Because you got one of me.
Also (a) it has nothing to do with this post and (b) someone (s) are surely to get angsty over “black male bashing” [of course black female bashing is perfectly fine] if this discussion veers in that direction.
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Of course, but white women can get lip injections and butt implants to emulate features that black women have naturally and it doesn’t say anything at all about their insecurity, jealousy, or desire to be like something they are not. 🙄
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Natasha, poetess, Y et al,
Don’t bother engaging Chuck. Just one visit to his website will make you want to take a chlorine bath. He doesn’t have much love for WOMEN period. Any wonder that his esteem for BW is so low if at all existant?
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No, considering I am white, that would just be weird.
witchsista is right. i don’t have “love” for women; i neither have hate. i’m neither a misogynist or a pedestalizer in an age where men feel that they have to accept one extreme or the other. i just happen to view our society as virulenty anti male and particularly anti white male. none of my posts are meant to derogate women or minorities – they are meant to stem the tide against a complete route of what i view as not such bad things when taken prima facie: whiteness and maleness.
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Oh well, okay then. No point continuing this discussion.
(Btw, I’m probably not the best person to talk to about anti-white male discrimination. I mean, I think I’m not; just a hunch though. ;))
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It is also way off topic for this thread.
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You know, even though I’m annoyed at the racism behind this episode and the gullibility of people who bought into her stupid story hook line and sinker, you can’t deny that poetic justice was served here; Storro has to live with a disfigured face for the rest of her life, and live with the shame of this incident as well. This is punishment enough for me; I couldn’t care less if the police decide not to charge her for the hoax. The racists who literally bet their money on her hateful story being true by sending money have lost their hard-earned money and are probably feeling stupid and ripped off now. All in all, a brilliant punishment for racists, and we didn’t even have to lift a finger. Thanks Bethany!
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“Thanks Bethany!”
Lol.
—–
I figured aba… sorry about that.
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“They hate us like we’ve stolen them from their homelands, enslaved them, murdered them, denied them education and human rights. How strange.”
True!
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@ chuck
you are WAY off base. Way off base.
Relax.
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The public reaction to this incident was really eye-opening.
When Storro’s story first became public, everyone poured pity on her and racist hatred on the black female ‘culprit’.
When Storro admitted it was a hoax? It’s pity on Storro (again!) and complete silence about black women.
F*ck, anybody with two brain cells would admit that the skewedness of this reaction is proof of the racism and anti-black-women hatred that permeates this country.
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Natasha W
Oyan,… okay? Why are you getting excited? Can a person not ask you to clarify your point? Is that too much? Relax.
————————————————
Wow. So that’ hows you are choosing to try to nullify my points. As a black American woman, that is how ‘I’ understand this. Not that this is necessarily important, but I am a Phd in public discourse and tend to utilize my skills from academia, as a black woman. I also recognize the, ” why are you getting excited’? as a white female/class ploy. Not saying you are are a yt female, but obviously, this ‘dialogue is less about what MY points are, and more about control, lol. I recognize this, and have moved on. Success to you on understanding the relevance of this social ‘event’.
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i just happen to view our society as virulenty anti male and particularly anti white male.
What…this society? Like…American society?
There’s not enough LOL in the world.
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@Chuck:
1. There is a BIG difference between being jealous of white women’s features and being annoyed at the assumption that black women are jealous of white women’s features. When poetess or whoever comments on your blog about how she does not like the features of white women, clearly this is the latter, not the former. In fact, it is counter evidence to the former.
2. Nobody here is attacking whiteness or maleness per se. Rather, we simply find it unacceptable that a significant section of the population lacks basic decency and uses existing power structures to attack our dignity and treat us unkindly (and derive some sick pleasure from it). Like asada says above, relax! You do not need to get defensive/protective about whiteness and maleness.
I hope you’ll stick around and read more posts and especially the comments so that you can hear more about our experiences and understand exactly what it is that we are criticising.
(sorry abagond for this off topic comment.)
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“What…this society? Like…American society?”
HAHAHAH!
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People, this is the wikipedia article about the incident: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bethany_Storro
If you have a wikipedia account, do sign in and add some much needed analysis of the racism behind this incident. The existing article gives it no treatment at all; the only mention of race was that the alleged attack was racially motivated.
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chompingcomp,
The public reaction to this incident was really eye-opening.
When Storro’s story first became public, everyone poured pity on her and racist hatred on the black female ‘culprit’.
When Storro admitted it was a hoax? It’s pity on Storro (again!) and complete silence about black women.
F*ck, anybody with two brain cells would admit that the skewedness of this reaction is proof of the racism and anti-black-women hatred that permeates this country.
i agree with everything you said. goes to show racism will never die. i feel sorry for people who still feel sorry after she admitted it was a lie. bet if a black woman threw acid on herself, no one would give a damn.
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I heard briefly about this incident and chose to ignore it because that’s how stupid the whole thing was…but I will comment now.
I agree w/ the poster who said the jokes on Storro in the end, she messed up her face and made an ass of herself.
I also agree with the poster(s) who pointed out that people were so quick to jump to the defense of the white woman “victim,” without examining the facts. Let it have been a bw in her situaiton and no one would have taken it seriously, people would still be going on and on right now about how this bw falsified her story and the blame would be put on bw, as it usually is…
Ofcourse there is beauty in every ethnic group in the world, but I have always found it odd to say the least that people need to constantly be told again and again (via the media and society at large) that ww are supposedly the epitome of beauty and that bw are so jealous of ww. If that were true, why would you need to keep brainwashing people w/ that message in order to get people to agree w/ that notion?
If the stereotype that bw were inherently jealous of ww’s beauty were true, there would be no need to brainwash people with this idealized image of ww, while simultaneously brainwashing people w/ this degrading image of bw.
Just the mere fact that the media and society in general goes through so much effort to depict these contrasting images of white and black women reinforces the fact that there is no superior beauty when it comes to race or you wouldn’t need to keep reminding people of it….that’s just my opinion….i don’t know if i’m making sense, but I hope you understand what I mean.
The whole thing was ridiculous, the woman had alot of nerve to think that a bw would be jealous of her when she is obviously the insecure one in the situation or she wouldn’t have dumped acid on her face in the first place.
It’s comical…in a sad way…the whole thing is just comical.
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Peanut, ITA.
And where have you been? You only pop in every now and then.
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“poetess comments on my blog and pretends that she doesn’t have animus towards white women, yet she constantly denigrates white womens’ looks at every turn. In fact, she made a comment at my blog where she said she’s not jealous of white women and I responded that I always hear black women make “Barbie” comments about white women whereas I don’t ever hear a white woman even discuss black womens’ looks.”
This comment must be a joke. Natasha you brought up some excellent points. I would also like to add to your point by reminding people of the fact that there are white women editors, photographers, everyday white women on the street who go out of their way to exclude black women from modeling, respectable acting roles, political positions, academic positions, tv shows…the list goes on…There was even an incident where Beyonce’s skin was lightened in an ad for Loreal. Why?…Because we can’t have people looking at an image of an attractive, brown-skinned black woman because that would disrupt the beauty hierarchy in this country.
In addition, there are high fashion models who INTENTIONALLY exclude black models from their fashion shows and then they paint white models in black face. I, myself, have been called “white girl in a black girl’s body,” by white females more than anyone else…Why is it that any black woman who is articulate, educated and classy has to be equated w/ a white woman??? What is being implied there is the notion that black women are inferior (supposedly) to white women, in terms of their demeanor and their disposition overall. My white female ‘friends’ were basically implying that white women are inherently superior in that respect to black women. To me, that sounds like a cop-out for someone’s insecurity as it pertains to meeting a bw who does not fit the black female stereotypes these particular people have in their minds….
So, in conclusion… please don’t fall for the deception that black women are inherently any more jealous of white women than white women are of black women. If there was no feeling of envy or no feeling of a threat from bw, people would not go through so much trouble to degrade the beauty and dignity of bw in order to maintain the socially-constructed beauty hierarchy in this country…don’t fall for it.
At the end of the day white women have their own beauty and black women have OUR own beauty. Take race/racism out of the situation and beauty is beauty period…. Neither group should be jealous of the other….
But , in this racist society people seem to love to brainwash people w/ the notion that bw have a reson to be ‘hatin on’ and ‘jealous’ of white women…when really bw have no reason to be jealous of white women….
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It’s comical…in a sad way…the whole thing is just comical.
If she hadn’t blamed a black woman, but still managed to walk off with $28,000…yes, it would be flat-out hilarious. It would almost be gangsta, especially now that she’s been slapped with charges but has her arms crossed, talking that “I ain’t do ish” BS.
But alas…that’s not how it went down.
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Lord, Chuck, you may be on to something! All black women everywhere would love to look like this:
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:r13j2ez_i2IqGM:
How about this:
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:RD356Xmgl2NSFM:
Some of the ugliest white women in captivity! But hey, they got white skin, the envy of all black women! Don’t that beat all! I’m jealous to the point of outrage! I think I’ll go and throw some acid on them! No, wait, they already do this to themselves! They beat me to it!
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I think many people here are missing the point Chuck is making.
I think he’s speaking objectively. From an objective point of view, he’s right.
I don’t think white females are necessarily jealous of black females, but white females may become offended if a black female is chosen, romantically or aesthetically over them, because white females are used to being put on a pedestal and expect to always be there. They don’t think of black females as competition and assume that in a given romantic or aesthetic competition, they’d be chosen first. It’s the same mentality a ‘pretty’ girl has when her lesser attractive friend is chosen over her. It’s a form of narcissism that falls along racial lines.
Consider this blog article I read a few months ago:
http://umarlee.com/2007/11/20/ugly-black-women-perfct-arab-wives-and-matters-of-race/
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hi natasha, i have been around, just been busy w/ classes and work etc… 🙂
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“I don’t think white females are necessarily jealous of black females, but white females may become offended if a black female is chosen, romantically or aesthetically over them, because white females are used to being put on a pedestal and expect to always be there. They don’t think of black females as competition and assume that in a given romantic or aesthetic competition, they’d be chosen first.”
I think I understand that point and my point was that there is insecurity/threat going on this beauty hierarchy or people would not feel the need to keep reinforcing the supposed superiority of white beauty and supposed inferiority of black beauty. If people did not feel envy/threatened they would not go through the trouble to make bw seem as least desirable and ww as the most desirable constantly.
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Peanut says,
In addition, there are high fashion models who INTENTIONALLY exclude black models from their fashion shows and then they paint white models in black face. I, myself, have been called “white girl in a black girl’s body,” by white females more than anyone else…Why is it that any black woman who is articulate, educated and classy has to be equated w/ a white woman??? What is being implied there is the notion that black women are inferior (supposedly) to white women, in terms of their demeanor and their disposition overall. My white female ‘friends’ were basically implying that white women are inherently superior in that respect to black women. To me, that sounds like a cop-out for someone’s insecurity as it pertains to meeting a bw who does not fit the black female stereotypes these particular people have in their minds….
-So, in conclusion… please don’t fall for the deception that black women are inherently any more jealous of white women than white women are of black women. If there was no feeling of envy or no feeling of a threat from bw, people would not go through so much trouble to degrade the beauty and dignity of bw in order to maintain the socially-constructed beauty hierarchy in this country…don’t fall for it.
-At the end of the day white women have their own beauty and black women have OUR own beauty. Take race/racism out of the situation and beauty is beauty period…. Neither group should be jealous of the other….
-But , in this racist society people seem to love to brainwash people w/ the notion that bw have a reson to be ‘hatin on’ and ‘jealous’ of white women…when really bw have no reason to be jealous of white women….
Peanut, your comments are excellent and on point. ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE are the real reason many WW have been DECEIVED into thinking their beauty is “superior” to Black beauty and it’s CLEAR that they do get JEALOUS of BW when they feel their position of “White beauty supremacy” is threatened.
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Mel,
(1) I don’t think anyone here is disputing that white women are on a pedestal and they are aware of this; people have been saying that on this blog, all along. That wasn’t Chuck’s point, either.
What people are disputing is that black women are inherently jealous of white women, all white women, simply for being white. That was his point. That black women are jealous of white women, in general (almost his exact words, if you want to scroll up). I’m really utterly baffled by how he came to this conclusion; black women are not, in my experience, thinking about white women or whiteness as an abstract concept. He, of course, has really no idea what black women think or how they feel, he just thinks that that’s the “logical” conclusion to come to, because of his own beliefs (read: racism) and online experiences. I beg to differ, and it isn’t for lack of knowledge.
(2) Don’t confuse a pseudo-rational tone for objectivity. He and his cohort tend to use the former, but they are rarely the latter.
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@Peanut. High Fashion models have little control over runway casting unless they’re big name models. Gisele, for example.
It’s been proven that ppl who are put on beauty/celebrity pedestals are the most narcissistic and insecure, more so than the general public. They need reinforcement and adoration all the time to feel good about themselves. They need to be reminded of their ‘self-worth’ and beauty, and for many, putting black women down provides that healthy dose of self-esteem reinforcement.
*See the ‘pretty girl, ugly friend’ situation that I pointed to in my previous post.
I think both the self-esteem of white females and black females have suffered, as a consequence of their very different social positions on the beauty ladder. This is why I agree with Chuck. I do believe black females are understandably jealous of the position white females have on the social ladder and many often take their resentment out on white females, verbally and otherwise.
A perfect example of this is the Megan Fox post that Abagond had up a few months ago. The comments weren’t ‘nice’; many black females DO get tired of feeling they’re less than white females and often react by being nasty toward them, especially if a black male expresses interest in this white female.
However, white females are insecure because realistically, they do not live up to the beauty standards that are expected of them. Storro is clearly a case of a white female who is so desperate to feel good about herself so she’s (a)willing to do anything to get money for cosmetic surgery and (b) becomes delusional and convinces herself that black females think she’s pretty–as in, better-looking than them (blacks), and therefore attacked her for being so because they’re jealous.
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Oooooooh, Mel…good one.
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However, white females are insecure because realistically, they do not live up to the beauty standards that are expected of them. Storro is clearly a case of a white female who is so desperate to feel good about herself so she’s (a)willing to do anything to get money for cosmetic surgery and (b) becomes delusional and convinces herself that black females think she’s pretty–as in, better-looking than them (blacks), and therefore attacked her for being so because they’re jealous.
I particularly liked this part.
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@ Mel
I understand what you are saying but I feel as though you are conflating annoyance with jealousy. I do get annoyed with the idea that all things being equal a white beauty trumps a black one. However, I am not jealous of white women as a group. I don’t think I have ever been jealous of a white female just because she is white. Now, I have been jealous of a few because they have the particular handbag I want, LOL. But as far as looks go, I have never feigned for Caucasian features and I don’t feel I am inferior to women that are white.
This isn’t directed at you specifically but it seems whenever black females expresses displeasure with the beauty racial hierarchy people automatically want to write us off as being jealous or bitter. Personally, I don’t have anything to be jealous of. I think white women are beautiful and hold no animus towards white women as a group. However, I do not agree with this idea that white beauty is somehow better than non-white (especially black beauty) just ’cause. And its especially annoying that any black women that speaks out about said beauty standards is just being a bitter black b*tch.
Also Chuck, any white man that is jealous of those modern-day minstrels you named is delusional and has very low self-esteem. Said white men need to visit a mental health professional STAT.
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i dont’ agree w/ what Mel said. Again I say bw are no more inherently jealous of ww than ww are of bw and I made my points on that already.
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And if you’re going to use the select comments from abagon’d thread on megan fox as a valid example, I want you to go to a thread about serena Williams or michelle obama and count how many nasty comments from white women there are…in fact i’ll dig up some stuff myself and post them…
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also high fashion models may not have much control over their image, but fashion designers do and they select who models their clothes…
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I’m glad Mel brought up the Megan Fox post on this blog. I checked it out and noted the snarkiness of the proprietor of this place as well as all the haters in the comments section.
Then I contrasted it with the Serena Williams write up from a few years ago. Far fewer comments as this blog was obviously not as popular then as it is now, but it is interesting to see the disparity between the amount of credit everyone was willing to give. While Fox had mixed results, the general tone of the thread was that “she ain’t all that” while Serena received a sort of sympathy for not receiving the credit that the commenters believed she deserved.
Now, I’m fully aware that this may just be a “woman thing”. I know white chicks and black chicks – all chicks – will downplay a good looking woman’s looks. And perhaps there is a tendency for people to root for the underdog and root against the favorite. But isn’t that really my whole point?
I suppose I’ve given the wrong impression. I don’t think black women sit around thinking existentially about white women and white privilege. And perhaps my conclusions reached beyond the pale of possibility – at least too far to develop a workable theory on random acid attacks.
But my point remains that when white women are around or when white women are seen with black guys or when the subject is brought up, black women tend to display their animus much more readily than women of other races. The very fact that abagond would write a post about a white woman with all the snark involved underscores my point. White women aren’t perplexed by race and why would they be?
I also find it funny that Natasha W was so hard on Megan Fox. Is that because of natural female tribalism or because of racial tribalism?
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@Peanut, maybe black females are not innately jealous of white females, but they’ve been socially conditioned to be this way; or, to feel insecure around white females. It’s no fault of their own, really. Like I said, it’s understandable–white females are revered and black females are constantly put down, so naturally there will be some resentment there, similar to the sibling who despises his brother because his brother is the favorite of the parent.
That said: I don’t agree that white females are naturally more beautiful than any other–they’re not.
To a certain extent, white females, as consequence of the pedestal they’ve been put on, are more likely to become preys for sexual purposes. They are taken less seriously, and are treated as trophies and collectibles. This is not good, but it’s the reality.Many also have self-esteem issues, which leads to things like anorexia, etc. They are more prone to fall for social cosmetic trends than other groups. This is the reason why collagen lips, butt implants and botox are so popular among white females, because it’s the latest social trend and it’s aimed at them directly.
They are also treated more harshly when they turn middle age because they’re deemed as having only material worth.
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“But my point remains that when white women are around or when white women are seen with black guys or when the subject is brought up, black women tend to display their animus much more readily than women of other races. The very fact that abagond would write a post about a white woman with all the snark involved underscores my point. White women aren’t perplexed by race and why would they be? ”
you know what ur right…ur right bw are the only ones who get jealous and we’re always jealous of ww. White women NEVER EVER have anything negatiev to say about bw you’re right…*rolls eyes*
http://marriagepartner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=414
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i would like to draw ur attention to some of the comments by these white women (supposedly) who are “not jealous of bw” and have nothing negatiev to say…
Comment # 1: “I mean I will agree that these negro women can’t compare to Mexican or White or Asian women, and anyone who says otherwise simply isn’t being honest. I mean there is a reason most men of any race just refuse to date these ugly black girls, and their own black men always run from them and go after other races of women. ”
Comment# 2: “Hi, I’ve been reading some of the messages, and some women here are just saying some really bold politically incorrect things (especially concerning blacks) that you aren’t really supposed to say in public, but I guess who cares since no one really knows us here anyway right… I’m going to go ahead and give my opinion too.
“Sexy latina girl”, you are right about these black women being the ugliest and having the worst attitude, and I agree with you on that; I mean there can’t be much argument about that obviously. You’re also right that some of us Caucasian women feel jealous of Asian or Hispanic women occasionally, but so do you girls feel jealous of each other sometimes too. And you cannot just make the generalization that Hispanic women are better-looking than white women. And not all of us Caucasian women get sunburned easily. I just had to correct some of what you said because you are really slandering white women, and it’s not fair. We are just as nice as you Hispanic women are.”
….you can read 4 urself to see the rest of the comments, but there are tons of threads like this out there…
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@Peanut
[b]I understand what you are saying but I feel as though you are conflating annoyance with jealousy.[/b]
It’s often hard to tell the difference between these things, and for good reason: one leads to the other in a sort of ‘chicken or the egg’ debate. The Megan Fox post was simply an example. It wasn’t the first or last time I had seen things like this. There are many examples of this that I have seen in real life and the Internet.
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most of the angry comments that came from “black women” only came AFTER the fact…btw. Which leads me to the point that there is a difference between reacting out of defense in a negative way and simply being on the offensive and initiating the negativity.
People confuse the two, I rarely ever hear bw express outright disdain for ww, the only time the subject even comes up is when incidents such as the ones described in this post occur…
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It amazes me that some people really think and believe that black women are inherently more jealous than other women and that bw are jealous of ww…it amazes me.
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i would like to draw ur attention to some of the comments by these white women (supposedly) who are “not jealous of bw” and have nothing negatiev to say…
I guess this is directed at Chuck, but it proves the point I am making. White females think they are AESTHETICALLY superior to black females, as do some other non-black females.
They admit to jealousy of Hispanic and even Asians, but not blacks, because Hispanics and Asians are also put on sexual-aesthetic pedestal in western society, and in many case may even outrank them. Sofia Vergara and Jessica Alba for instance. However, these females don’t feel the same about black females who they see as their ugly step sister.
Many of these females feel they can ‘steal’ a black girl’s man because men will automatically prefer them to a black females. This is why they’re usually offended when they see black females with attractive white males, especially if these males picked the black girl over them. To understand who these [white] females think, try to imagine someone you know who you believe is not as attractive as you. Now imagine if you both like the same attractive guy and the guy chooses to date that (in your mind) lesser attractive girl over you.
This is sadly how these females think. Like I said, I don’t agree with any of it, nor do I believe black females are NATURALLY jealous of whites, but I do understand the way society can create [inferior/superior] complexes in people; and society takes some sick pleasure in beating down the self-esteem of blacks, especially black females.
PS. Check out the link of an article I posted on my first post. The conversation discussed in the article is intriguing as it proves exactly my point. It’s between a black woman and two self-proclaimed white Arabs.
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here are some infamous letters from self-described”white women” which are ripe w/ insecurity/black women stereotypes in my opinion…
Here is a nice one: http://www.nypress.com/article-12509-a-white-woman-explains-why-she-prefers-black-men.html
Tell me, would you say the author of aforementioned piece depicts bw in a positive way or what??… I sense some superiority, but maybe that’s just me
Read here: http://academic.udayton.edu/race/05intersection/gender/sister.htm
Dear Jamie,
I’m sorry but I would like to challenge some of your Black male readers.
I am a White female who is engaged to a Black male–good-looking, educated and loving. I just don’t understand a lot of Black females’ attitudes about our relationship. My man decided he wanted me because the pickings amongst Black women were slim to none. As he said they were either too fat, too loud, too mean, too argumentative, too needy, too materialistic and carrying too much excess baggage.
Before I became engaged, whenever I went out I was constantly approached by Black men, willing to wine and dine me and give me the world. If Black women are so up in arms about us being with their men, why don’t they look at themselves and make some changes. I am tired of the dirty looks I get and snide remarks when we’re out in public.
I would like to hear from some Black men about why we are so appealing and coveted by them. Bryant Gumble just left his wife of 26 years for one of us. Charles Barkley, Scottie Pippen, the model Tyson Beckford, Montell Williams, Quincy Jones, James Earl Jones, Harry Belafonte, Sydney Poitier, Kofi Anan, Cuba Gooding Jr., Don Cornelius, Berry Gordy, Billy Blanks, Larry Fishburne, Wesley Snipes…I could go on and on.
But right now I’m a little angry and that is why I wrote this so hurriedly. Don’t be mad with us White women because so many of your men want us. Get your acts together and learn from us and we may lead you to treat your men better. If I’m wrong, Black men, let me know.
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Mel, I read ur article already. I still believe that the racism that those women expressed IS a form of jealousy/envy.
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I don’t want to detract or post too many links though. There is no point in getting worked up over this, I’m not going to bust a blood vessel debating w/ people. I’ve made my points.
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my last few posts were mainly directed at this comment
“Then I contrasted it with the Serena Williams write up from a few years ago. Far fewer comments as this blog was obviously not as popular then as it is now, but it is interesting to see the disparity between the amount of credit everyone was willing to give. While Fox had mixed results, the general tone of the thread was that “she ain’t all that” while Serena received a sort of sympathy for not receiving the credit that the commenters believed she deserved. ”
Chuck seemed to be implying that bw were more prone to speak negatively of white women than ww are of black women and I disagree w/ that… completely…
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It’s often hard to tell the difference between these things, and for good reason: one leads to the other in a sort of ‘chicken or the egg’ debate. The Megan Fox post was simply an example. It wasn’t the first or last time I had seen things like this. There are many examples of this that I have seen in real life and the Internet.
I suppose so, and this is where experience comes into play. Personally, I have never heard any black woman express disdain for white women that get with black men, nor white women in general. Its just not my experience. Do women like this exist? Sure, but I think its a stretch to use these examples as general sentiments. This is the problem I am having with you and Chuck. Suppose this acid attack was for real, why is the automatic reason behind the action “bitter black woman jealous of white women” rather than crazy black woman? Obviously the people that run with the jealous black woman spin BELIEVE black women have something to be jealous, and this is where I cry foul. By and large black women are not jealous of white women. We may express frustrations about the double standards applied to our group but this underlying rage people are hyping does not exist.
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the point is SOME black women may resent the PRIVILEGE that SOME ww abuse in this society, but SOME ww can be just as resentful towards bw too. the only difference is the reason for the resentment/ jealousy and the way it is expressed…that is my point. That’s my only point, I’m not saying one group is more jealous or less jealous, I am not saying one group is better. But, jealousy, resentment, rivalry is not something EXCLUSIVE to bw, people need to let that notion go.
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Peanut:
Mel makes a really powerful point. The nature of the hostility of ww aimed at bw is different than the nature of the hostility by bw aimed at ww. This doesn’t make their hostility any better, but I would argue that it implies that there is more hostility in the bw –> ww direction.
WW are trying to protect their turf – the turf of their privilege. BW are somewhat jealous that WW have that turf to begin with.
Now what I would say is that the battle is ongoing for BW whereas WW only have to confront that battle when it is directly brought to their attention. Not that every BW in the world is concerned with BW being perceived as equally beautiful as WW, but the issue seems more at the front of more black womens’ minds. As it is somewhat of a struggle, they tend to more actively express their derision. I’ve never heard a white girl say anything negative about a black girl having anything to do with their race a propos of nothing while I’ve heard plenty of black women say something about “Barbie” or “white girl” or “thin hips” out of thin air.
As with any “war front” which depicts an entrenched battalion versus a seemingly oppressed group, the “home team” is reduced to merely thwarting incrimental affronts to their domain. In other words, WW will deride BW but only when the subject of BW’s beauty is specifically under discussion.
Perhaps my experiences are out of tune, but it seems that BW more actively seek to tear down WW than the other way around. At the least, it can’t be said that WW are the aggressors in this “battle”.
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You want to know my exact train of thought?
And remember that this was based on the assumption that the attack was true. The fact that Storro put acid *on her own face* is – to my knowledge – unparalleled. So all indications pointed to the fact that her story was true. Plus the fact that there was a similar incident reported in Washington a few weeks before; the reported suspect was described as being a black man.
So I was basing this on presuppositions that could very well have been true. At least Storro’s truthfulness was more likely than the alternative – that she put a caustic substance on her own face. Of course, I was wrong (but remember that I was one of the first bloggers – as in first 3 or 4 – to point out flaws in her story…I was in contact with the man – Marcus Griffith – who did the most to push the hoax theory into the limelight).
Now, I quickly realized a pattern (and this pattern still holds true btw). I remembered the Katie Piper incident – a real life Western acid attack perpetrated by a black man against a white woman. Then I dug deeper and found about 4 more cases of black perps. One was a black woman. And I also studied and found out that acid attacks are almost always about jealousy. Just like a murderer who kills by stranglulation indicates an intimate act, acid attacking indicates certain motives on the part of the attacker.
Thus my theory: jealousy + black perps = black perps jealous of something (and remember, I’ve found no white perpetrators in Western world acid attack cases). When I believed Storro’s story in which she reported that the perp said “hey pretty girl” then threw the acid I figured that there must be some sort of jealousy at play. And since it was random and jealousy was involved, there was only one logical conclusion: the black woman was jealous of the white woman.
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I think the crux of the matter is that too few people recognise the distinction between being JEALOUS of white women’s physical traits and being TIRED OF THE HYPE that surrounds white women’s physical traits. Both responses are triggered by the same event (e.g. Abagond posting about Megan Fox), so if one doesn’t read carefully, it is easy to think that black women are making noise because they are jealous, when in fact, they are merely tired of the hype.
It’s frustrating how some racists (e.g. Chuck) just refuse to acknowledge this difference. They are just too narrow minded to believe that black women are genuinely happy with their own physical traits and do not hate white women for what they possess. It shows that they believe so strongly in the intrinsic superiority of white beauty. Any disagreement we express is immediately written off as jealousy.
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“Mel makes a really powerful point. The nature of the hostility of ww aimed at bw is different than the nature of the hostility by bw aimed at ww. This doesn’t make their hostility any better, but I would argue that it implies that there is more hostility in the bw –> ww direction. ”
I disagree w/ that again Chuck and I already explained why. I could go on and on.
I still don’t understand how a few comments from bw on the internet or otherwise (never personally hear hostile comments from bw towards ww offline btw) could possibly be more damaging than DISCRIMINATING against bw in the public sphere, the media and society in general. I don’t see that at all. I disagree w/ making bw out to be the aggressors and the more jealous party in this situaiton.
I won’t dispute that there is resentment between the two groups, I will not dispute that. But to say bw are the aggressors I disagree w/ that. In fact I frequently see bw react in a defensive way when they feel their “turf” is being invaded. For examples the letters I posted…situations such as that and situations such as the one in the post are the type of scenarios where you’ll get the ‘black barbie comments’ another thing that leads to resentment is the hypocrisy of beauty standards in this culture.
A big thing that i know irritates me is the fact that features are only appealing when they are on a white woman. For example, someone brought up the example earlier of full lips only coming into style when Angelina Jolie showed up or J.Lo getting credit for having a full backside, when many bw have had those features forever. These are the types of scenarios that prompt responses/resentment from bw in my experience and i know i get irritated by that as well, but is that jealousy due solely to white women supposedly being superior, or is it the INJUSTICE of the situation that prompts the jealousy/ resentment??
I disagree w/ your comment that is comes more from a
bw–> ww direction than vice versa, history, the media and society completely contradicts that, COMPLETLEY and I stand by that. Do not paint bw as the aggressors yet again, please….
And I presume you’re not a black woman chuck, so you probably don’t experience the same type of racism/sexism that I experience and have experienced growing up in an all white female enviorment. I can definitely tell you it is not JUST a bw–> ww situaiton, NOPE. It’s both.
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Thus my theory: jealousy + black perps = black perps jealous of something (and remember, I’ve found no white perpetrators in Western world acid attack cases). When I believed Storro’s story in which she reported that the perp said “hey pretty girl” then threw the acid I figured that there must be some sort of jealousy at play. And since it was random and jealousy was involved, there was only one logical conclusion: the black woman was jealous of the white woman.
If you read “Warriors Don’t Cry,” by Melba Patillo Beals you will note that a white student did attack her by throwing acid into her eyes and nearly blinding her….so that’s not accurate what you just stated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melba_Pattillo_Beals
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“Plus the fact that there was a similar incident reported in Washington a few weeks before; the reported suspect was described as being a black man.”
Oh, so now one or two black men commit an act of violence…so now everytime this crime is committed…it’s automatically black person??? Are we going back to that again??
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Chuck:
“Then I dug deeper… And I also studied and found out that acid attacks are almost always about jealousy.”
Do stop pushing this jealousy theory. The vast majority of acid attacks are NOT motivated by jealousy. Almost all known cases are carried out by men against women. Why would men feel jealous of the looks of women? This theory just doesn’t make any sense.
Every credible piece of research has shown time and again that acid attacks are a symptom of misogyny in society, and not a race problem as you like to think. This is evident from the numbers; there are far more attacks in more patriarchal societies than in countries such as the US. This shows that sexist attitudes towards women is the strongest risk factor for acid attacks.
Suppose we assume that your analysis/theory is true: racial jealousy is the primary motivating factor behind acid attacks. We would expect to see large numbers of black-women-on-white-women attacks in multicultural societies like the US, UK, Canada, etc, and few or zero attacks in more physically homogenous countries like Afghanistan or Pakistan. Clearly this is not the case.
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@ jelee
Correct. If anything these acid attacks show how far some crazy men will go to destroy the looks of a female(usually a lover or wife) he feels he “owns”.
Seems to me the mentality is “if I cant have you, Ill f*ck you up so no-one will want you”.
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@ Chuck
Yeah, that sounds all well and good but the majority of acid attacks worldwide are perpetrated by men against women. Also acid attacks are so rare in the Western World that it seems almost impossible to build such a theory based on so few cases.
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more precisely, acid attacks are about decreasing the value – permanently – of the victim. men do it so that women wear the stain of shame and so that no other man will want them. throwing acid on womens faces tends to achieve those goals.
But it seems that we aren’t clear on the definition of ‘jealousy’. From wikipedia:
Seems that the “they’re stealing our men” trope espoused by quite a few black women fits in here as white women are blamed as potential interlopers who divert the love and attention from black men away from black women.
It also follows that men can indeed be jealous of women.
Most of you are confusing the terms ‘jealous’ and ‘envy’. ‘Envy’ exists when a person covets what the other person has; ‘jealousy’ exists when a person is perceived as taking something from another person. I’ll stand by this point to the end, white women don’t perceive black women as taking *anything* from them.
Now, that this is because of white privilege is worth discussing, and that this privilege is unfortunate and unfair is also another matter.
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Why is Chuck so determined to tell us black women that we are jealous?
We’ve told him flat out we aren’t jealous, but tired of the hype. He sticks his fingers in his ears and insists that we don’t know how we feel, he knows better how we feel, and we’re jealous.
We’ve explained to him the true dynamics behind acid attacks. He tries to turn a sexist issue into a race issue.
We’ve recounted our experiences of white women being the initial aggressors with regards to black women’s looks.
We’ve even given him an example of a white woman attacking a black woman with acid.
Yet, he is still so fascinated by the idea of black women’s jealousy. Why is that? Does it make him feel good about himself that women are fighting for the affections of men? (Give me a break.) He’s got some strange, psychological need to paint us black women out as jealous, so jealous that society needs to be on alert for our vicious attacks. RAWR!
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i’m done debating this and I also stand by what I have said. I will never accept that bw are inherently more prone to jealously than white women. Both can get jealous and both can have resentment.
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And your assertion about the acid attack was incorrect and I noticed you didnt’ address that Chuck…
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but as i said i’m done w/ this debate, its tiring and i’m not losing sleep over this foolishness…
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@Chuck:
But it seems that we aren’t clear on the definition of ‘jealousy’…Most of you are confusing the terms ‘jealous’ and ‘envy’. Envy’ exists when a person covets what the other person has; ‘jealousy’ exists when a person is perceived as taking something from another person
LOL Chuck. Check out your first post in this thread: “Being jealous of the attention white women get and being jealous of only the traits white women possess is merely a distinction without a difference.” Oh the irony.
the “they’re stealing our men” trope espoused by quite a few black women fits in here
Fits in ‘here’? What is this ‘here’? Some imaginary place in your head where masses of black women are hurling acid at the faces of white women? Give it up Chuck. Acid attacks are about misogyny, not race. All you have is one, just ONE incident of a black woman attacking a white woman, and you are coming up with theories and analysis and explanations about some phenomenon that ISN’T TAKING PLACE IN REAL LIFE.
I wonder why you bothered commenting at all. Is it:
(a) to discuss how to curb acid attacks by tackling the misogyny behind them.
(b) to analyse and understand the racism behind this incident
(c) to perpetuate an irrational fear and hatred towards black women (using a single case in all of history)
If you wanted to contribute something useful to society, you’re failing miserably.
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Peanut:
“but as i said i’m done w/ this debate, its tiring”
Yes. After a while it becomes clear that some aren’t interested in seeing the truth of the matter. Too many people are too proud to admit when they are wrong.
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@Peanut
I remember reading that letter that white woman posted and the response letter a black man posted.
She mentioned Tyson Beckford and Laurance Fishburne in her little list. Tyson Beckford has dated all kinds of women and his current girlfriend now is black. And isn’t Laurance Fishburne married to Gina Torres who is black too? and I swear his first wife was black.
Her little list proves nothing.
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jelee:
to your first point, i mistakenly used “jealous” when i should have written “envious”.
but to your larger point, yeah i’ll give it up. i reached on the acid attack thing. i tried an overarching theory to describe what i thought at the time was an interesting social phenomeonon. my theory turns into an academic masturbation in that it becomes unprovable without data and anecdote. it was stupid, overall.
so i’ll drop that ruse.
but i’ll maintain a couple of points: black women *by design* are more jealous of white women. maybe you all aren’t envious of white women, but many are jealous. and the fact that you think WW get a bunch of hype implies that black women are measurably jealous of the hype they receive which, again, is a distinction without a difference.
of all the cases of acid attacks that took place outside of third world countries, the perpetrators have been black with one being hispanic. not a whole lot of cases, but the pattern still exists.
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Y,
“This isn’t directed at you specifically but it seems whenever black females expresses displeasure with the beauty racial hierarchy people automatically want to write us off as being jealous or bitter.”
Precisely.
It’s a Catch-22, if you think about it.
Chuck,
“I also find it funny that Natasha W was so hard on Megan Fox. Is that because of natural female tribalism or because of racial tribalism?”
Maybe you should read and stop jumping to conclusions as you always do. I call out all people that are insincere, whether it be physically or otherwise, and whether they be black, white, male or female.
It’s pretty annoying when ignorant people like you try to call shots when you’ve no clue in the slightest. Check yourself and your own insecurity: you’ve loads of it.
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Y,
“I suppose so, and this is where experience comes into play. Personally, I have never heard any black woman express disdain for white women that get with black men, nor white women in general. Its just not my experience.”
Right, I’ve rarely heard anything expressed about white women from black women, in real life. It’s just not an issue.
Peanut,
“It amazes me that some people really think and believe that black women are inherently more jealous than other women and that bw are jealous of ww…it amazes me.”
I’m utterly amazed… I don’t think I’ve been ever more amazed in my life.
What, insecure of white women? For what reason? These people claiming this are nuts, there’s just nothing else to it.
aeigfc,
“Why is Chuck so determined to tell us black women that we are jealous?”
One has to wonder.
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Chuck
“but i’ll maintain a couple of points: black women *by design* are more jealous of white women. maybe you all aren’t envious of white women, but many are jealous.”
Please tell us, oh-great-one, reader-of-every-mind, how have you reached this conclusion? And why do you feel the desperate need to cling to this conclusion?
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Why are we still taking about “jealous black women” in a BETHANY STORRO thread?
(I’m not saying black women should be accused of this sort of jealousy anywhere, but the fact it’s happening in this thread is… Interesting, to say the least).
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Because people like to dump on black women: black women is the internets’ favorite subject to “discuss” (read: disparage).
Broke? Well, at least you’re not a black woman. Mom just died? Well, at least you’re not a black woman. Just find out you have terminal cancer? At least, you’re not a black woman! Cheer up!
This sh*t is insane. And a self-perpetuating cycle.
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Chuck:
Thanks for admitting that it was mere academic masturbation on your part. However, if you were really sincere about retracting this hatemongering theory of yours, you would take down the initial offensive post on your blog, which I see you haven’t.
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“of all the cases of acid attacks that took place outside of third world countries, the perpetrators have been black with one being hispanic. not a whole lot of cases, but the pattern still exists.”
Response:
Chuck, i’m only going to say this one more time…that’s not true and I just gave you an example of the contrary. The only ones you HEAR about are where the perpetuators are black…it’s never ALL, you can’t make sweeping generalizations like that without considering how biased this society is when it comes to reporting crime and who is perpetuating.
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““but i’ll maintain a couple of points: black women *by design* are more jealous of white women. maybe you all aren’t envious of white women, but many are jealous.””
I don’t know what “by design” means. but I imagine the feeling that you are somehow less prized as a mate in our society must produce some negative feeling towards those who are more prized. Even if it is societies flaw and not your own that is the cause.
Like Kanye said:
“But when he get on he leave yo ass for a white girl.”
WOC, you can’t tell me this shit doesn’t piss you off, not sayng it’s jealousy though.
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Just found this thread and I think this is so sad.
I’m a black girl who lives in London who has always had quite high self esteem and to think that white women genuinely think they are better deep down in their hearts breaks mine.
Racism and discrimination are so awful. Black people didn’t ask to be enslaved, they didn’t ask for a random white guy to come and take them from Africa , make them slaves hence ruining way of life to second class citizens for good.
The superiority white people feel towards black people started in slavery and I feel the media has just reinforced that.
I went to live in Africa for two years when I was 12 and I can proudly say those were the happiest years of my life. Everyone around me was black. Racism didn’t exist , everyone had afro hair, skin colour or tone complex’s in black people didn’t exist and more importantly the black women has such high self esteem and knew they were beautiful and had NO issues with their hair as racism prejudice the media and everything else which tells us in the western world that they are ugly didn’t exist so these issues didn’t exist to them.
I feel so sad because black women in the western world will NEVER have this feeling or know this as they are in a world where by they will always be second class and behind.
This is ALL the media and what we are conditioned to think. I wish every black woman with insecurity issues got a chance to live in Africa or the Caribbean for abit where their look is the epitome of beauty and there is no prejudice against them. It will make them understand they are not the problem.
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jas0n,
“… I imagine the feeling that you are somehow less prized as a mate in our society must produce some negative feeling towards those who are more prized. Even if it is societies flaw and not your own that is the cause.”
I imagine that’s why Chuck is such a Downer Dan? After all, he concedes his position as a white man to black men on the “most desired men” hierarchy. It’s quite pitiful, actually.
“Like Kanye said:
“But when he get on he leave yo ass for a white girl.”
WOC, you can’t tell me this shit doesn’t p*ss you off, not sayng it’s jealousy though.”
It’d probably make them pissed at black men, yes, not white women. Of course you’d want a person you’ve supported since day one to reciprocate.
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Antonia, thanks for sharing your experience. It’s always refreshing to hear how things are different in another country.
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Natasha W says:
people like to dump on black women…Broke? Well, at least you’re not a black woman. Mom just died? Well, at least you’re not a black woman. Just find out you have terminal cancer? At least, you’re not a black woman! Cheer up! This sh*t is insane.
I totally agree. This is what Chuck is doing; feeling jealous of black men pairing up with white women, he finds great comfort in the idea that black women have a far greater capacity for jealousy, so much so that they are taking to the streets armed with cups of acid. Check out some of his earlier comments:
“the media likes to perpetuate images of black men and white women as part of some elitist drive to force the idea that those two groups go well together”
“filling young peoples’ heads with those ideas and imprinting on them is sort of presumptuous on the part of the media elite”
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@Y
This is the problem I am having with you and Chuck. Suppose this acid attack was for real, why is the automatic reason behind the action “bitter black woman jealous of white women” rather than crazy black woman?
That was never my automatic reason. When I first heard of the incident and assumed it to be true, my first explanation was that the attacker was mentally ill. Often, random attacks are perpetuated by mentally ill people, such as those suffering from Schizophrenia, for example.
That said. I don’t believe black females are naturally jealous of the features of white females, but I do believe they are resentful of them, for the way they’re uplifted by society, while blacks are not. This resentfulness often manifests in nasty comments on white females.
Furthermore. My point still remains. The way whites like Storro feel about black females is different from the way black females feel about white females, but both feelings come from a place of insecurity. Women are judged/valued for their beauty/youth in society. The white female doesn’t feel ‘threatened’ by black females because she believes she’s superior, aesthetically; and, more desired, too. The black female, however, feels resentment because in a society that values females on their looks, they are put on the bottom. They are often ignored and put down. To say that black females, GENERALLY SPEAKING, are envious of white females is not wrong.
This is not to say all black females feel this way, or that it’s a consequence of black females believing white females are better-looking. It’s social conditioning. Furthermore, black females don’t spend their days obsessing and brooding over white females.
However, on the occasion when a white female is put in front of them, that’s often when the resentment comes out, especially if the white female is being ‘flaunted’ by a black male. This is what happened when Abagond strayed from his praise of curvy black females, just momentarily, to praise Megan Fox, a white female who is considered a sex symbol.
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Now I want to know why Mel is so adamant on telling us how black women “really” feel.
I wonder why people feel so invested in this issue. It’s like they’re shoving it down the throats of black women “You’re jealous, just admit it!” Why do people feel the dire need to make black women believe this? I find it interesting.
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“To say that black females, GENERALLY SPEAKING, are envious of white females is not wrong.”
I don’t think it’s fair to just assume black women are jealous of WW. Especially when they are saying otherwise. Feeling that something is wrong with the way that the standard of beauty is skewed white doesn’t amount to jealousy.
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@jas0nburns
Exactly. I’ll just agree to disagree on this subject.
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Antonia:
Please don’t trot out the slavery meme. After all, the institution of slavery has been around for thousands and thousands of years and it was perpetuated by Africans on Africans in larger measure than it ever was by white Europeans. And it still exists today on that continent.
One salient feature of Western culture is that it is the first civilization to *end* slavery, yet we are constantly reminded of its practice.
jelee:
I leave up posts where I later determine that I’m wrong so as to be able to go back to them and understand the evolution of my thinking. My blog isn’t big enough or important enough to have an impact on policy decisions so I don’t see the urgent need to alter it. Instead of my blog being a collection of posts exhibiting “what I think now” it is a collection of posts exhibiting “what I thought along the way”. I always learn the most about myself and the world through my shittiest posts.
And actually, sometimes I let them fly just for that reason. Just to see what sticks. At the root of it, my blog isn’t about you or any other reader, its about me.
Natasha W:
I never conceded *my* position to anyone. Don’t get it twisted. But my identity isn’t wrapped up in my group’s identity – much as yours is. I can admit that white men are more sexually jealous of black men than the other way around. Yes, black men will give white men and black women the eye when they see them paired together, but as for an existential discussion on jealousy, white men feel it when the facts of IR dating aren’t directly in front of them. Otoh, black men tend to be envious or jealous of the material goods and perceptions of privilege that they believe white men benefit from.
For you to display shaming language which tries to mute my voice or cause me to withdraw from the discussion shows just how biased you are in this debate.
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Chuck’s most recent post maintains that:
“of all the cases of acid attacks that took place outside of third world countries, the perpetrators have been black with one being hispanic. not a whole lot of cases, but the pattern still exists.”
Chuck is merely displaying confirmation bias. Here is a more balanced sample of cases outside third world countries. The skewed and selective nature of Chuck’s research speaks volumes about his intellectual honesty and his character:
– London, 2009: A woman told a group of youths to keep quiet while watching a Harry Potter movie. Later, they followed her to a restaurant and splashed bleach onto her face, disfiguring her and damaging her eyesight. The culprits were a white boy, a fat Asian boy, and a light skinned mixed race boy.
– (at sea) 2010: A radical animal rights group, Sea Shepherd, threw acid missiles at Japanese sailors, to protest against Japanese whaling. Three Japanese crew members suffered injuries to their eyes and faces. The Sea Shepherd operates under Dutch and Togolese flags.
– London, 2006: Richard Holliday (white), a policeman, moved in to arrest Amir Abdul Latif (black), when Latif sprayed acid from a ketchup bottle at Holliday, in an attempt to escape from being arrested.
– Italy, 2010: A Moroccan man threw acid in the face of a Moroccan woman for rejecting him romantically.
– London, 2009: Ashok Mahajan sprayed acid at lawyers after hearing a verdict he did not agree with at his trial. Neither victims nor attacker were white.
– Florida, 2010: Fredrick Rogers (black) splashed acid on a woman and a 14 year old boy sitting in a car (race unknown). Motive is unknown.
– Sweden, 2010: A container filled with acid was thrown into an apartment, sending 13 to hospital. Motive and perpetrator remain unknown.
– Hong Kong, 2008-2010: On several occasions, a prankster threw acid out of a building onto the crowds below, in a mockery of the local police.
– Switzerland, 2010: Parcels rigged to spill acid were mailed anonymously to a number of bankers and members of the financial community. They were addressed to their families. Four were injured. Motive and perpetrator remain unknown.
– London, 2008: Five black gang members raped a girl (race unknown) and then poured acid on her in an attempt to remove DNA evidence.
– Sydney, 2009: Five men (South Asian descent) broke into a house and poured acid onto two men (also of south Asian descent). The attack was fuelled by disagreement over the conflict in Sri Lanka.
– Greece, 2008 : Kostadinka Kuneva, a Bulgarian immigrant, had acid splashed onto her face by two men of European descent. The attack was fuelled by anti immigrant sentiments.
– Arkansas, late 1950s: Melba Patillo Beals (black) had acid splashed onto her by white racists against integration.
– London, 2010: Awais Akram (South Asian descent) was stabbed and beaten and had acid splashed on his face by three men (south asian descent). Akram had had a physical relationship with a married woman, whose 3 relatives attacked him for tainting their family ‘honour’.
– Melbourne, 2010: Two white youths stood on the top of a multi storey carpark and threw acid, injuring 2 children both less than 2 years old.
– France, 1980: Charles Bousquet (french) was attacked with acid by a group of Jewish terrorists who mistook him for Pierre Bousquet, a founding member of a neo-Nazi political party in France.
– France, 1981: Michael Caignet (french) was also attacked by Jewish terrorists with acid.
– London, 2008: Katie Piper (white) had acid thrown at her face by her ex, Daniel Lynch (black/ biracial) and an accomplice, Stefan Sylvestre (Asian).
– Arizona, 2010: Derri Velarde (black/ mixed race/ hispanic) had acid thrown onto her face by another woman (hispanic). It is believed that the attacker had a grudge against Velarde and wanted to punish her by ensuring that nobody would marry the recently divorced Velarde.
– Bulgaria, 2009: Two Bulgarian girls were attacked with acid on their way home from a nightclub. The attacker was a Bulgarian man who had had a relationship with one of the girls. He had been rejected by her prior to the attack.
Looking at these cases, it’s evident that none of these cases are motivated by black people’s supposed jealousy about the looks or privilege of white people. Rather, the attacks are fuelled by ideological fervour, men’s pride and sense of entitlement, membership in a gang, petty quarrels that got out of hand, pranksters, mental illness and pure stupidity at times. Anyone who continues to fear black people’s jealousy is an irrational, narcissistic fear/hatemonger.
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sigh. when a black woman express her opinions about beauty, especially white beauty, truth is, we’re not jealous. like others have said we’re tired o the hype that revolves around white women and then on top of that we’re always compared to them. they’re pretty, nice, respectful, submit, etc. while black women are the exact opposite. that’s what we have a problem with. there is nothing wrong with white women but i doubt any black woman would be jealous. hell we’re not so why is it hard for some to accept that? have you ever thought that women are jealous of each other? i mean that can happen. stop trying to make it a black woman thing because frankly we’re tired of it.
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“I don’t think it’s fair to just assume black women are jealous of WW. Especially when they are saying otherwise. Feeling that something is wrong with the way that the standard of beauty is skewed white doesn’t amount to jealousy.”
Totally agree with this.
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Because, Natasha, it’s like you said. Folks want to keep BW as their scapegoat, dumping ground and whipping “boy.” Like you said, no matter how shytty their lives are, at least they can look at us and say, “Well at least I’m not THAT!” Mel and Chuck are all about that. “C’mon, BW. Admit you’re jealous of WW (as your inferior, ugly-azzes should be) so I can feel better about myself for not being one of YOU!”
And yet, y’all are STILL engaging these fools. Didn’t Ankh’s post teach y’all nuffin?!
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Witchsistah, I definitely think that’s an issue. But Mel is a black woman herself. So is she saying she is jealous of white women? Or is this a “black American women” issue, since she is not American by origin?
She talks about when a white woman is “chosen” by a black man, then this insecurity arises. But what about when a black woman is “chosen” by a white man? Do white females not also become insecure? Is that what she is saying, because that has not been my experience at all as someone who lives it every day. I never even thought white women would be worried about me, because they always complain about black women “hating” on them when they’re with black men and not letting their “love” be, I thought they would rise above such “pettiness”. But they’re also guilty. Could it be it’s not a black woman thing after all, but a universal issue?
“And yet, y’all are STILL engaging these fools. Didn’t Ankh’s post teach y’all nuffin?!”
I can’t help it! It’s just fascinating in a way, the effort that people put into this.
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I hope one day you guys in America will realise all these issues have been conditioned in your minds. Everywhere you look the evidence of slavery is present and over and over you have been told white is alpha, higher, superior and amazing and black is lower, uglier, not so amazing, unfortunate.
In alot of Black American women’s mind they KNOW they aren’t jealous of white women however what is disturbing is white women do believe that because they have been conditioned to genuinely think of themselves as superiors and jealous worthy.
I’ve said this once and I’ll say it again to the black women who live in America I hope one day you can see outside that racially controlled country and see places in the world where racism doesn’t exist once you take a step into different continents and cultures it will be made to you that every negative thought or stereotype has been FED to you and you will realise how clever the media actually is.
I feel most sorry for the black girls born into such a racially concious concious that tells them they are ugly. It’s sad. very sad.
Antonia, London.
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She talks about when a white woman is “chosen” by a black man, then this insecurity arises. But what about when a black woman is “chosen” by a white man? Do white females not also become insecure? Is that what she is saying, because that has not been my experience at all as someone who lives it every day. I never even thought white women would be worried about me, because they always complain about black women “hating” on them when they’re with black men and not letting their “love” be, I thought they would rise above such “pettiness”. But they’re also guilty. Could it be it’s not a black woman thing after all, but a universal issue?
I thought the same. I figured that WW wouldn’t care if I dated a WM since at least I’m not “hating” on them dating BM.
Boy was I wrong on that one. As soon as it was known that my partner was White I went from being that “cool BW who’s not like those ‘other’ Blacks” to “that uppity n8gger gal who thinks she’s as good as a WW” with the behavior indicated said change of attitude.
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I promised myself not to post in this until “jealous black women” derailment is over, but I just need to address a few things.
1. Following this logic, women (of any race) are jealous of men. Sorry to burst your bubble, but it’s not the case. Same here, as far as I can tell.
Voicing your opinion about discrimination is not jealousy.
2. There are jealous black women, no doubt, and some of them are jealous of white women. But guess what? White women are jealous of black women too!
With white women, it manifests in sudden, annoying explosion of privilege.
3. I am not a big fan of “you must be X to understand X position”, but what does a white man know what black women think? I am not saying it’s impossible, but whoever are Chuck’s informants, black women here don’t seem to agree.
4. Why are we STILL talking about this?
I’m not saying this thread should be used solely to praise black women, but hey, given the fact they were collectively accused of a crime none of them committed (but was, in fact, made up by a white girl), I think black women bashing is extremely inappropriate.
(I’m not saying there should be a thread for black female bashing, but given the fact they- as a group- were accused of this alleged crime, and they- as a group- proved to be victims here, putting them in a position to defend themselves of false accusations- even if it’s accusation of being jealous and not an actual crime- is absurd).
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Chuck says:
“At the root of it, my blog isn’t about you or any other reader, its about me.”
On the contrary; when you write an irresponsible, poorly researched article about black people, it has real world effects on our lives, and it becomes about us far more than it is about you. Fancy you toying with wicked ideas out in the public domain while black people have to deal with the consequences of your masturbation.
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And when I say explosion of privilege, I mean on things like ones described by Witchsistah in the above comment.
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Chuck,
“I never conceded *my* position to anyone. Don’t get it twisted.”
You’ve passed the torch on to black men as “most desirable”, therefore, you’ve conceded your position on the white supremacy hierarchy. Only white women are left, to be the sole bearers of white sovereignty.
“But my identity isn’t wrapped up in my group’s identity – much as yours is.”
ROFL! Is that your “flame”?
Do try again…this is coming from a guy who is on a blogging rampage to avenge what he believes is “anti-white male” discrimination in this society. Oops! You must have forgotten:
” I can admit that white men are more sexually jealous of black men than the other way around. “
Who said anything about sexual jealousy? We just said jealousy/insecurity, period. And it’s nice to know you think black men are more sexually competent than yourself, but let’s not generalize.
“For you to display shaming language which tries to mute my voice or cause me to withdraw from the discussion shows just how biased you are in this debate.”
No, I wasn’t trying to shame you (?), I just think you’re behaving like a moron, quite frankly. And you’ve shown how biased you are, that you keep ignoring all evidence to push your beliefs.
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chompingcomp,
“Chuck is merely displaying confirmation bias. Here is a more balanced sample of cases outside third world countries. The skewed and selective nature of Chuck’s research speaks volumes about his intellectual honesty and his character”
ITA.
Thanks for the info.
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Mira,
“I’m not saying there should be a thread for black female bashing, but given the fact they- as a group- were accused of this alleged crime, and they- as a group- proved to be victims here, putting them in a position to defend themselves of false accusations- even if it’s accusation of being jealous and not an actual crime- is absurd”
That’s what I was hinting at earlier when I saw the comments were heading in that direction. Hello, people, this post is not about black women. Technically, that’s off-topic. And I agree that it’s inappropriate to make it about that when it’s known that black women were falsely accused.
But I should know by now… whenever there’s a post about abhorrent things that white people do/say in relation to black people, the topic eventually turns to whether or not black people are deserving of this and why they are actually the cause of white people thinking/doing this. How much you want to bet the “phantom black assailants” post will soon become about whether or not black men/people are more violent?
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Natasha,
It’s happening as we speak. I just checked that thread.
Back on topic: Bethany Storro in court:
http://en.terra.com/latin-in-america/pictures/acid_attack_hoax_bethany_storro_in_court/53341
No words about the racial aspect of the story. (Fine. But it wasn’t like that before, when people believed her. It was all about BLACK female attacker… )
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Which is more believable: Woman burns own face with acid? Or woman is randomly attacked with acid. It seems to me that the random attacker is more likely. I would have probably believed her story no matter the race of the alleged attacker because who burns themselves on the face with acid? That’s not even believable as a suicide attempt. I still don’t understand her motivation.
I would have seen the race of the attacker as inconsequential (though I realize many would not) a black woman is just as likely to be crazy as a white woman.
I don’t think that if you believed her it’s necessarily because you think burning white girls with acid is something that black women go around doing. And I think white women come out looking worse in this case, or they would, if society viewed white people as a monolith.
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jas0nburns,
It’s not just that. I don’t blame people for believing somebody attacked her (though I am not sure how believable was story about an attacker who goes after a random person). The main problem here were people who started a virtual lynch mob, people who wrote horrible stuff against black women and black people in general (and not just the alleged attacker), and people who called for violence.
None of these people said: “The attacker was probably crazy; a sane person would not do something like that”. They focused on the race of the attacker instead. And notice this is the exact thing they say now, when it’s proved Storro did this to herself: “She is probably crazy; a sane person would not do something like that”. No sh.t! And why didn’t they use the same excuse/explanation when they thought it was a black person who did it?
None of these people focused on the attack alone- they simply took it as a proof of how black people really are.
And I think white women come out looking worse in this case, or they would, if society viewed white people as a monolith.
Exactly! What would happen if somebody started an Internet campaign on how evil white people are for doing these things? They all just go around accusing innocent people, don’t they? That’s what they all are like.
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@ mira
“The main problem here were people who started a virtual lynch mob, people who wrote horrible stuff against black women and black people in general (and not just the alleged attacker), and people who called for violence.”
right. that’s def the most important issue here, ( not that you could tell by the trajectory of this thread. ) I’m sure all the people who wrote those comments don’t see themselves as racist, or even think racism is still an issue.
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Witchsistah and Natasha,
Don’t you know we live in an alternate reality? People are always surprised to hear that the boyfriend and I get the most negative reactions from young White women in peachy-keen San Francisco, the bastion of liberal “crunchy granola” White people.
Most Black people I’ve known who grew up in places like I did (that have a “critical mass” of Black people) or in all-Black neighborhoods tended to (surprise!) use standards of Black beauty as their reference point. It definitely wasn’t a matter of jealousy towards White women; White women weren’t even referenced. Hell, the few White people that were around were subjected to the standards of the community they lived in–for example, a White girl would be considered attractive if she had a “gh*tto booty” (not sure if that gets modded).
Chompingcomp,
An acid throwing case was just resolved in my home city, in which a Latina woman and her daughter-in-law were convicted of throwing acid on an older (also Latina) lady.
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And while we’re tossing anecdotal evidence around, I’d also note that plenty of White women have said they were jealous of me (physically) to my face. I’ve never heard a Black woman say she was jealous of a White woman’s looks, but I’m wondering what she’d say she was jealous of?
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Mira is spot on. The reactions betray the racism.
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Jasmin,
Not sure. But I did notice many white women who publicly (at least online) declare they envy black women for this or that. They also compliment black women on their looks a lot.
However, this rarely happens when there are NO black women around (in a forum or blog discussion). They don’t do it when they are alone.
I have no idea if this reflects real life, but it’s interesting.
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@Witchsista. I am a black female. It’s not that I am obsessed with black women admitting they are jealous of whites. The fact of the matter is, I have visited too many message boards and know too many black females who just react nastily to white females, for unexplained reasons.
I used to hang with a black girl; we went shopping a lot, she was obsessed with dissing the ‘bodies’ of white women. She loved going on and on about white women having flat butts, yada yada. When Kanye West admitted to liking Scarlett Johansson a few months back, a lot of black females crashed his website to insult him over it and accused him of buying into white beauty, etc. It was silly. And no, I would not call these cases ‘isolated.’ They’re examples.
Anyway, I too, like Chuck, believe that white men are jealous of the masculinity of black men, for instance. I agree that they feel threatened by black men and their ‘mythical’ sexual prowess. So, it’s not that I am all for dissing black woman, which I am one. I am just good at social observation.
I don’t dismiss female pettiness, also. But, in the case of black and white females, pettiness can also fall along racial lines.
Anyway, I think I’ll drop this here. None of us will change our views.
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Mel,
So I guess you must be jealous of WW too. After all, you’re a BW. How could you not be?
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Witchsistah, I won’t get into this psychological babble with you. It won’t work. I made my point. There is resentment there. It’d be dishonest for black females to suggest that their self-esteem is all fine and good. All you have to do is check out those black doll v. white doll tests.
That said. I don’t spend my time disparaging white females because a black dude says happens to find her pretty, nor do I feel the need to “beg” for acceptance from the mainstream, who rejects me.
Anyway, I made my points.
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there are some white women who are just as resentful of black women as you say there are bw who are resentful of ww….it goes both ways. I’ll never understand how people can look at some message boards on the internet and conclude that bw are MORE resentful of ww than ww are of bw when I’ve already given enough examples of white women who go out of their way IN THE REAL OFFLINE WORLD to DISCRIMINATE against bw and exclude bw from modeling, jobs, magazines etc…if that’s not resentment…i don’t know what is…
so again and for the last time, the resentment is equal and it goes both ways. I don’t think anyone is debating that there is resentment between the two groups in general…the issue is people making bw out to be the sole contributors and aggressors in the situation and that i do not agree with and how people can even make that conclusion is baffling to me…when history, the present and society in general goes against that notion entirely…
here is dict.com’s definition of resentment: “the feeling of displeasure or indignation at some act, remark, person, etc., regarded as causing injury or insult. ”
the exclusion of bw/ typecasting of bw in stereotypical/demeaning roles by white agents, casting directors, editors, producers and even SOME everyday white women who discriminate/resent bw fits perfectly into that definition…
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Mira good points you made…the thread has gotten sidetracked…sorry**
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Please don’t trot out the slavery meme. After all, the institution of slavery has been around for thousands and thousands of years and it was perpetuated by Africans on Africans in larger measure than it ever was by white Europeans. And it still exists today on that continent.
One salient feature of Western culture is that it is the first civilization to *end* slavery, yet we are constantly reminded of its practice.
OH BROTHER! I’m not even gonna address the inaccuracy of this statement and now “whites” were not the first one to “end” the practice of slavery either…please do some more research before you come on w/ your biased view of history.
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“I leave up posts where I later determine that I’m wrong so as to be able to go back to them and understand the evolution of my thinking. My blog isn’t big enough or important enough to have an impact on policy decisions so I don’t see the urgent need to alter it. Instead of my blog being a collection of posts exhibiting “what I think now” it is a collection of posts exhibiting “what I thought along the way”. I always learn the most about myself and the world through my shittiest posts. ”
You can leave your post up if you want, but if you’re going to do that you could atleast put a note at the end of the blog stating that it’s incorrect or atleast leave an update or something like abagond does on his posts…
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Because people like to dump on black women: black women is the internets’ favorite subject to “discuss” (read: disparage).
yes…i can’t tell you how many times i’ve been on a thread that has absolutely NOTHING to do with black women and somehow…bw come into the conversation magically and it turns into a bw bashing fest.
I was watching a video on youtube about ghosts…and in this episode there was a black girl. the actual episode had nothing to do w/ race whatsoever, the actress just happened to be black…i scroll down and sure enough one of the first comments on the video “nappy headed black girl…” etc etc…and i remember thinking “wtf, what does that have to do w/ this video?”
It just amazes me that people love to use bw as a SCAPEGOAT in this society. Just like this woman and her acid spraying azz did…i’m astounded.
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Mel,
So every BW in America is jealous of WW BUT YOU. Gee, how did I not see THAT one coming! Typical.
Anyway, I made my points.
You stated your points. You did not make ONE of them.
Even BW are trying to play the “At least I’m not a BLACK WOMAN!” game!
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I just re-read one of Natasha’s posts. So Mel is not a Black American woman. So the meme is “At least I’m not a Black AMERICAN woman!”
Okay, I get it now.
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There is a liberal use of the word “jealousy” in several comments.
Several times the word “envy” would have been more accurate.
This ambiguity can be quite misleading when one reads theories about female resentment.
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Mel brings up her stories of black female resentment (mostly based on online message board incidents, which we’ve already concluded are not representative of real life).. So? There are incidents of white female resentment too. Who is to be the judge as to who is more resentful? Anecdotes kind of mean nothing, but since we’re all using them, I’ll just say that every single one of her statements can be said about white women. And since there have been STUDIES that show that black girls/women have more confidence than white girls/women and white girls/women are generally more insecure, those making claims to the contrary are going to have to explain that.
“It’d be dishonest for black females to suggest that their self-esteem is all fine and good.”
I’m sorry, I’d usually never say this: but b*tch please!
So you’re to be the judge of whether black females have low self-esteem or not? Based on a couple of friends and message boards? You’re going to tell them that they do have low self-esteem when they tell you otherwise? What did I say above? *Shove, shove, you’re-insecure-just-admit-it, shove, shove* Speak for yourself.
“That said. I don’t spend my time disparaging white females because a black dude says happens to find her pretty, nor do I feel the need to “beg” for acceptance from the mainstream, who rejects me.”
Oh, okay it’s… “I’m not like you OTHER black women!!!11!! I have confidence and I don’t need to talk about other people to make myself feel better!”
Right! That’s why you have to bring down other black women to make yourself look good in the eyes of men. Very transparent.
“So every BW in America is jealous of WW BUT YOU. Gee, how did I not see THAT one coming! Typical.
Even BW are trying to play the “At least I’m not a BLACK WOMAN!” game!“
It’s unreal isn’t it? I need to get my “at least I’m not a black [American] woman” card too! The cheek of these chicks. I bet all the non-black women who despise black women are laughing at this right now. This is on a whole new level of stupidity.
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“And since there have been STUDIES that show that black girls/women have more confidence than white girls/women and white girls/women are generally more insecure, those making claims to the contrary are going to have to explain that.”
Good point. Every credible piece of research has shown that black girls and women suffer from less insecurity than white girls and women. There’s not a shred of evidence that things are the other way round.
So to sum things up:
White men are jealous of black men.
White women are more insecure than black women.
Chuck needs to change his theory to:
White people *by design* are less confident about their bodies than black people.
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“White men are jealous of black men.”
wtf? Why do you have to go there?
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^Lol.
I don’t think it’s fair to say that white men are jealous of black men. I do think that some of them have issues around the “big p*nis” myth and this makes it appear as if they are all that insecure.
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what a dumb convo. “blacks are jealous of whites! Here’s my science to prove it!” “no whites are jealous of blacks! here’s my science!”
whatever.
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Well, people, it’s not like we can’t do this for the lulz. It’s unscientific and makes no sense… at all.
So we could try any combination we want (white women being jealous of black men, for example) and I bet we could find enough of a “proof” to support our “theory”.
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LOL, of course I’m not serious about white men being jealous of black men! Neither am I serious about the modified theory I’m offering to Chuck. Just joking and parodying his ridiculous logic behind proving jealousy. I totally agree with you, jasonburns; the “science” here is a joke.
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Yeah, I figured you were just being facetious, jelee. 🙂
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Bethany Storro is a sociopath and sociopathy CANNOT be cured so sending her to a mental profeesional won’t help her. What does need to be done is to put her azz up under the jail so other people who might be thinking of doing anything half this malicious and crazy will think twice about it. Her behavior is sociopathic because she didn’t give a rat’s butt what would happen to other people over her lies as long as she got what she wanted. Not only were black woman hauled into police stations and interrogated over this dumb sh*t, but as my husband pointed out, there could have been random beatings, killings, or even riots over this.
As for the BW are jealous of WW crap. There’s just as many WW jealous of BW. Trust me on this one. I’m over here in Norway where there aren’t all that many BW for the WW to be jealous of and I’m still getting ‘WHAT is HE doing with HER?’ comments. Matter of fact, I was at choir practice one night and one WW said, ‘All these nice Norwegian girls and John Olav had to go all the way to America for HER.’ She said it in Norwegian; I guess she thought I wouldn’t understand. My reply was, ‘ Yes, he did. He wanted something Norway couldn’t provide.’ She turned red and shut up.
Actually who’s jealous of whom is only germane to this discussion in that Storro apparently has her head full of the ‘BW are jealous of us.’ stereotype and other stupid stereotypes, such as ‘I’m a WW if I say a BP, male or female did something to me, I will be believed.’ And lo’ and behold, she was. I do think white privilege won’t protect her from a jail cell, in this case. She made too many white people and the police look bad. In this she’s just congenitally stupid. White privilege won’t usually protect a white person who pisses off other white people, you know.
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Natasha,
Word on the projection. Why people love to air their baggage to strangers on the Internet is beyond me. 🙄
Plus, the coincidence that several of the regular Black women on this blog are dating/married to White men (thus making some White women “jealous” for taking what “belongs to them”, as evidenced by their behavior) seems to make this a particularly poor sample, IMO.
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@Blakgenius
Agreed she is a sociopath. She manipulated everyone to belive in her story she used her white priviledge to her advantage and is still using it. She wanted money for her plastic surgery and got it by playing the poor white woman victim.
Everyone who donated money to Storro might as well change their names to Nintendo because they got played.
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Aiyo said:
‘Everyone who donated money to Storro might as well change their names to Nintendo because they got played.’
Me:
LMAO! “There’s a sucker born every minute.”–P.T. Barnum
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jelee,
LOL, of course I’m not serious about white men being jealous of black men!
I got that. 🙂 Maybe these examples would make him rethink and realize how ridiculous some of his examples are. Especially if you apply double standards: you can’t say only one group of people does something out of jealousy without admitting another group is jealous too. (Because there’s the same amount of “evidence” for both).
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Jasmin,
“Plus, the coincidence that several of the regular Black women on this blog are dating/married to White men (thus making some White women “jealous” for taking what “belongs to them”, as evidenced by their behavior) seems to make this a particularly poor sample, IMO.”
True, several of the black women who’ve responded thus far are with white men, so I don’t see them being jealous of white women, rather the reverse actually.
Mira,
[I meant to respond to this earlier]
“With white women, it manifests in sudden, annoying explosion of privilege.”
Sometimes it does, but not always. I’ve had white women who never looked at me three times before (and vice versa) all of a sudden start giving me compliments when they found out my boyfriend is white. Then it was all “you’re hair’s cute”, “nice shoes”, “you’re skin looks pretty in that color” (?). I’m not sure how to understand this: maybe it’s “killing ’em with kindness” or just their way of “bowing” to one they think is higher up in the pecking order. Maybe both. But it’s weird.
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@Blakgenius
Matter of fact, I was at choir practice one night and one WW said, ‘All these nice Norwegian girls and John Olav had to go all the way to America for HER.’ She said it in Norwegian; I guess she thought I wouldn’t understand. My reply was, ‘ Yes, he did. He wanted something Norway couldn’t provide.
LOL, ice cold
@Aiyo
Everyone who donated money to Storro might as well change their names to Nintendo because they got played.
LMAO, Im stealing this!
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Natasha,
“you’re skin looks pretty in that color” ”
Huh? (Though I admit to laughing at the absurdity of that statement.)
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I’ve had WW do the “How did you two meet?” in a tone that said, “How in h*ll did YO’ Black azz bag a White man?!” I told them we met at a Thomas Jefferson/Sally Hemmings look-alike contest. We came in third. I’ve had women ask me how I got my man to marry me (um, he WANTED to marry me. I didn’t have to “get” him there and wasn’t gonna try to).
I’ve had non-BW follow me into the ladies room after they saw me with The Man at a restaurant. I guess they expected to see me doing a voodoo ritual to keep dude mesmerized or to see me douse myself with “Git A White Man” water or something. Honestly, I’ve had them STARE at me as if they could see what it was in my effin’ Black ATOMS that allowed a WM to be attracted to me.
I’ve also gotten the sudden special interest from WW who couldn’t even tell me from a can of paint before they find out I’m partnered with a WM. Yet again, trying to find out what’s so dam* special about this heah ni88er gal that attracted a WM to her. And I think it’s the MARRIAGE aspect that has them so flummoxed. It’s fine if a WM just wants to hit it and quit it. But to actually wife one of US up! I must have some EXTRA African voodoo p8ssy goin’ on!
Blackgenius, that response was cold and true and the latter part is what made ol’ girl mad.
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@Witchsistah and Natasha, referring to someone as ‘bytch’ on a message board does absolutely NOTHING to prove your points. You both sound ANGRY and like every worst stereotype of black women ever.
You DO NOT represent all black females, so chiding me for “forcing” you to admit self-esteem issues, seems painfully ironic when you’re both here (if you are two separate people), speaking on behalf of all black females.
Oh, okay it’s… “I’m not like you OTHER black women!!!11!! I have confidence and I don’t need to talk about other people to make myself feel better!”
Right! That’s why you have to bring down other black women to make yourself look good in the eyes of men. Very transparent.
These statements are just frivolous and presumptuous, at best, and downright asinine at worst. But it does say you know nothing about me, which is why you’d say that. Anyone who knows me would laugh to hear you accuse me of trying to make myself look good in front of men. Silly, really!
And what men am I trying to impress, now exactly?
Never mind.
I’ll say this. Please don’t mistake me for any of you. I am not argumentative or feisty. I merely stated it’s not my nature to attack other females on Internet or real life because of their skin color. I don’t call white females ‘Becky’ or any of that crap; nor do I call black men ‘sellouts’ for dating non-black females. The black females who do that have issues.
Attacking me for pointing out that there are self-esteem issues among black females will not erase the fact of this truth. It’s like getting upset over people seeing your dirty laundry rather than taking care of the dirty laundry in the first place.
I don’t care how high/good/healthy you think your self-esteem is. If it doesn’t apply to you, it doesn’t. You do not speak for all black females, either.
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Witchsistah said:
‘I must have some EXTRA African voodoo p8ssy goin’ on!’
LMAO! ROTF AND LMAO!
Maybe our jungle booties hypnotize WM. What y’all thank?
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Mel,
“I’ll say this. Please don’t mistake me for any of you. I am not argumentative or feisty.”
Of course you’re not! You’re not like those other black females!!! We’ve already established that. (Even though you spent that whole comment arguing back!! Lol, the irony.)
“Attacking me for pointing out that there are self-esteem issues among black females will not erase the fact of this truth.”
Once again, you still haven’t provided evidence for this. At all. Simply stating it does not make it the truth, no matter how emphatically you do so. Especially when every single study done on this very topic refutes your position.
I don’t think you realize how utterly foolish you’re being. No one, other than you, is making exceptions for you when they make statements about black women. Chuck’s original statements apply to you. Those racist comments made about black women apply to you. Even all your ignorant, stereotypical statements about black women apply to you. You are a black woman, no matter how “different” “non-jealous” or “non-black” you think you are. Be lucky you don’t live in Washington, that could’ve been your “Don’t call me black” black self at the police station being interrogated or hiding out in fear.
———-
Now, all, what did I say about some black women working against their own self? Trained better than Pavlov’s dogs.
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Mel,
“I merely stated it’s not my nature to attack other females on Internet or real life because of their skin color.”
Oh, this is rich.
Were not all of your comments here attacking black females because they are black? Deciding to brand all/most of them as being a certain way because of their skin color? Do you not realize how your very position on this post contradicts your statements? You think you’re being “intelligent” and “objective” by making these comments, when you’re really being anything but and everyone sees that except you.
This is why Canada will forever be the U.S.’s hat. Lol.
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Natasha,
*Ding ding!*
Now let’s see who begins to salivate…
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Mel,
Nowhere in my comments addressing you did I call you a bytch or use that word (or its properly spelled sister). So you can cease your projecting now and trying so hard to be better than BW or not counted as a BW that you’d LIE about what other BW are doing and deliberately misinterpreting our emotional states in order to appear superior.
Like Natasha said, you didn’t provide any evidence except basically because YOU said it. Natasha, Blackgenius and I have provided anecdata of WW expressing jealousy/envy of us for having the gall to be seriously partnered with WM. Nothing to say about THAT? And I don’t recall anyone calling them names or referring to them as “Becky” or anything else but WW (White woman/women), much less dissecting how we felt about their beauty or body parts.
When I addressed you, I wasn’t speaking for ALL BW. I know I can’t. Usually, when I post, I try to make it clear that I’m posting from MY PoV as a BW in America but it’s still MINE, based on MY observations, interpretations and experiences. YMMV. I know I can’t speak on the experiences of each and every BW on the block of my hometown where I’m from. I da** sure can’t do it for a whole country or for all of Black womanhood on the planet.
But by yours and Chuck’s own words, if you’re a BW then “by design” you’re jealous of WW. And it’s a threadbare argument to then throw up a “Yeah, but ALL THOSE OTHER BW are like that. Not me!” Guess what! If you are not all jealous of WW, doesn’t it stand to reason there may be other BW who aren’t also. And given the number of BW on the planet, that may amount literally to MILLIONS of BW not hatin’ on WW? And gee, might also SOME of those millions live in the U.S.?
What people are saying is that BW are angry about how we’re treated based on anti-BW stereotypes (that you’re trying to throw at us to see if SOMETHING will stick in order to be “better than them Black gals”). That’s a lot different than being “jealous” of WW because we desperately long to be White, hate our Blackness, see ourselves as truly inferior which is what you and Chuck are implying and, apparently, believe. This is about people believing that BW truly ARE inferior, but it’s not “good” to them until they get BW on board as well. It’s more difficult really to savor that when you got BW running around thinking they’re the sh*t.
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Jasmin, didn’t you do a post on the “I’m not like those other black people” phenomenon?…Yup, here it is:
http://jasminllenadegracia.blogspot.com/2010/08/dont-worry-im-not-like-those-other.html
Mel, read carefully.
——–
Witchsistah,
“Nowhere in my comments addressing you did I call you a bytch or use that word (or its properly spelled sister). So you can cease your projecting now and trying so hard to be better than BW or not counted as a BW that you’d LIE about what other BW are doing and deliberately misinterpreting our emotional states in order to appear superior.”
I said to her comment about black women having low self-esteem: b*tch please (not sure why she addressed her “retort” to both of us). She interpreted this as calling her a b*tch. She needs to learn how to use Google. That’s a common phrase used when anyone, male or female, black or white, says something so ridiculous that it doesn’t warrant a real response.
“Guess what! If you are not all jealous of WW, doesn’t it stand to reason there may be other BW who aren’t also. And given the number of BW on the planet, that may amount literally to MILLIONS of BW not hatin’ on WW?”
Precisely.
I’ve no idea why this person really thinks she’s so “speshul” and “different”.
But this a pattern for her. She tends to always say something stereotypical and/or negative about black American people or black American women. Not Africans, not West Indians, just black Americans. She clearly feels superior as a black Canadian. Last time she was complaining about black Americans promoting the “One Drop Rule” (never once did she complain about the co-signing of whites on this). In the same comment she remarked that blacks hate on biracials… to her “hateration” is in the bones of every black person in North America. Every black person, that is, except her.
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Once again, you still haven’t provided evidence for this. At all. Simply stating it does not make it the truth, no matter how emphatically you do so. Especially when every single study done on this very topic refutes your position.
You have not provided any evidence that they DON’T have self-esteem issues or that black females are all happy and so peachy as you claimed. Black women in the US have the highest stress levels of any female, with the lowest life expectancy of any female group. Yeah, you’re so happy and healthy.
You keep mentioning studies. I mentioned the doll tests, done in the 1960s and more recently with the same result: young black girl choosing the white doll as the ‘pretty’ one, and the black doll as the ‘ugly’ one.
Furthermore, your ‘anecdotes’ did not prove the WW are jealous of BW. It proved my point however. WW feel SUPERIOR to black women. You can’t feel jealous of someone you feel superior to.
But, I guess, since you’re all with white men, you must feel vindicated of the ‘ugly black woman stigma’ since a white dude validated you as pretty by dating you.
Why am I not surprised?
You accused me of ‘arguing?’ I stated my points, and whether you like them or not is irrelevant, since there are there, and expect people to have their opinions.
Another note. I addressed you guys as the same person, because I don’t see any difference in your approach or attitude.
PS. Since you’re obsessed with bringing Canada into this. I would not want to live in Washington. The US is a crime-ridden dump. The last black American chick I dealt with showed me the gun she used to shot her ex. She was in jail for sometime for the shooting. I was terrified.
This time I am really done responding on this thread.
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PS. I apologize for the grammar mistakes.
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@Mel
You have not provided any evidence that they DON’T have self-esteem issues…
Wait a minute… You want her to provide evidence of a negative Mel? How can she possibly do that?
Black women in the US have the highest stress levels of any female, with the lowest life expectancy of any female group.
So lessee… Black women’s life expectancy in the USA is roughly the same as white men’s and has been so for about 50 years now. So following your logic, then, black women are about as happy and healthy as white men, right?
http://aging.senate.gov/crs/aging1.pdf (page 14)
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I’ve no idea why this person really thinks she’s so “speshul” and “different”.
Failed attempt at playing a Good Darkie, perhaps? You know…one of those who always the exception to some racist rule or other?
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Another note. I addressed you guys as the same person, because I don’t see any difference in your approach or attitude.
Well, you’re so busy trying to lump all American BW into one ugly pile, I guess you couldn’t be bothered to notice the difference.
Since you’re obsessed with bringing Canada into this. I would not want to live in Washington. The US is a crime-ridden dump. The last black American chick I dealt with showed me the gun she used to shot her ex. She was in jail for sometime for the shooting. I was terrified.
So you’re superior because you live in Canada and we’re inferior because we live in America. So, I guess it’s soley due to YOU that Canada’s crime rate is lower and it’s all Black Americans’ fault that the US’s is higher. AND I guess from your lil tale that you think ALL American BW are violent, thuggish she-beasts.
Da*n, talking about clutching at STRAWS for self-esteem.
Furthermore, your ‘anecdotes’ did not prove the WW are jealous of BW. It proved my point however. WW feel SUPERIOR to black women. You can’t feel jealous of someone you feel superior to.
The only thing our anecdotes “prove” is that anyone can get an attack of jealousy. Anyone. Even your precious WW.
But, I guess, since you’re all with white men, you must feel vindicated of the ‘ugly black woman stigma’ since a white dude validated you as pretty by dating you.
The only thing I’d think we’d feel “validated” about is that we have our partner’s love, affection and esteem.
Man, folks REALLY need their ni88er bytches to feel superior to, don’t they!
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I’ve no idea why this person really thinks she’s so “speshul” and “different”.
Especially when her “speshulness” consists of dumping on another group of women. Guess she feels if you can’t beat ’em, join ’em.
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This is interesting.
Maybe I’m missing something, but why are people assuming that Mel is talking about ALL black women?
Has she said this? Or is she talking about trends that do occur among black women?
Over and over again on this blog and comments we have heard how slavery, racism and other factors have damaged the self-image and self-esteem of black people; and about how white women are put on a pedestal; and how many blacks are conditioned to view whiteness, or lightness, as better.
So when Mel says basically the same thing, why the sh*t storm?
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Mel says:
“You have not provided any evidence that they DON’T have self-esteem issues or that black females are all happy and so peachy as you claimed…You keep mentioning studies. I mentioned the doll tests, done in the 1960s and more recently with the same result: young black girl choosing the white doll as the ‘pretty’ one, and the black doll as the ‘ugly’ one.”
Thad says:
Wait a minute… You want her to provide evidence of a negative Mel? How can she possibly do that?
Now, hold on, Thad. I can prove a negative. I’ve done it before in lab, it’s part of being a black-woman-biologist-extraordinaire. ; )
Watch and learn:
http://www.unc.edu/news/archives/jan00/graylit012400.htm
“Some early research on self-esteem, which involved having children pick from differently colored dolls the one they preferred to play with, suggested that black children in the United States had lower self-esteem as a group than white children.
A new University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill investigation, however, strongly suggests that the reverse may be true.
The youngest black children — those under age 10 — tended to have slightly lower scores than the youngest white children, but this difference disappeared as the children passed age 10. Then blacks thought somewhat better about themselves than whites did. The self-esteem advantage for black adolescents was more pronounced in studies with more girls than boys.
“Provided that self-esteem scores for both black and white young people are equally variable with normal, or bell-shaped, distributions, our results suggest that the average black young person’s self-esteem is higher than that of about 56 percent of white young people…
“Many of our findings — for example, that the self-esteem advantage for black participants increased with age and was related to the sex composition of the sample — underscore the need for long-term studies of self-esteem development in males and females of both racial groups,”
Mel…Questions? Or would you like yet another study that refutes your doll-testing-of-course-you’re-insecure lambasting?
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Mel,
“Black women in the US have the highest stress levels of any female, with the lowest life expectancy of any female group. Yeah, you’re so happy and healthy.”
ROTFL.
You’re really grasping.
Mel, why don’t you tell us about the stress levels and life expectancy of black women in Canada?
Why, because the same disparities between blacks and whites evident in the US is also evident in Canada? Thought we wouldn’t know that, right? I’ll keep it a secret. 😉
“But, I guess, since you’re all with white men, you must feel vindicated of the ‘ugly black woman stigma’ since a white dude validated you as pretty by dating you.
Why am I not surprised?”
Why am I not surprised that you’d attempt to make it out to be that?
You’re the one that said that black women are insecure due to the attention that white women get from men. Not us. So we simply said “Ummm, but we’re already with men. White ones, in fact. So why would we be insecure?” This is a FAR cry from saying “I’m pretty ’cause I gots a white man!” So quit the BS.
“Another note. I addressed you guys as the same person, because I don’t see any difference in your approach or attitude.”
Yup, we’re all the same! (Including you!)
“PS. Since you’re obsessed with bringing Canada into this. I would not want to live in Washington. The US is a crime-ridden dump. The last black American chick I dealt with showed me the gun she used to shot her ex. She was in jail for sometime for the shooting. I was terrified.”
No, you’re obsessed with thinking that because you live a few miles away you’re leaps and bounds better than other people. It’s actually quite pathetic that you always feel the need to bring others down to prop yourself up. Isn’t that one of the symptoms of low self-esteem?
But, of course! This random black woman is indicative of most black women in America. Yeah, sure. It’s all gun-toting criminals ’round these parts.
This is called confirmation bias, Mel, look it up. There is even a post on it here.
“This time I am really done responding on this thread.”
Yes, you’re done. Completely. No coming back from this one — you’re “points” have been refuted. But something tells me you’re a glutton for punishment…
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Eurasian Sensation,
“Maybe I’m missing something, but why are people assuming that Mel is talking about ALL black women?”
Yes, you’re missing something: We know she isn’t talking about ALL (after all, she said ‘you all might not be…’)
Mel said she is speaking “in general”. That means, most or almost all. And that’s what we’re debating.
“Over and over again on this blog and comments we have heard how slavery, racism and other factors have damaged the self-image and self-esteem of black people; and about how white women are put on a pedestal; and how many blacks are conditioned to view whiteness, or lightness, as better.”
No one is denying that their is a color issue amongst blacks. We know that. We’ve said that.
But, as Jasmin commented earlier, it occurs WITHIN the black construct. Blacks for the most part, are not around whites, they live amongst other blacks. Hence the criteria of beauty comes from other blacks — lighter (not white) skin, looser curls, perky butt, slim waist etc are preferred. NOT white skin, flat booty, etc of white women. And there have been studies on this as well, saying this same thing, but I’m not trying to derail this post even further, so I’ll refrain from posting them at the moment.
But here’s something I have to say to you, personally, ES: You’re not an intellectually honest person. Yes, let me explain.
When the subject of internalized racism/white worship amongst ASIANS comes up, you’re one of the first to attempt to refute the claims with all your might. I’ve seen this several times. On your blog you treat these issues, superficially, but not here. Every single shred of evidence showing it –and there is arguably more evidence for internalized racism/white worship amongst Asians than there is for it amongst blacks– you attempt to rationalize or sweep under the rug. When people say that maybe the reason nearly half of all Asian women in the U.S. marry white men is because they are suffering from internalized racism, you say it’s not. I know why you do this — because your mother is Asian and father white, but come on. This is not honest.
So I find it very deceptive of you to come here and try to say that we are the ones in denial. First, sweep in front of your own house before you tell someone else their house isn’t clean.
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Natasha and Witchsistah,
I’m glad to see common sense prevails (for the most part) while I’m sleeping. 🙂
I’m sure you already know that Mel is jealous of White women, and misery loves company. This whole exchange makes perfect sense if you re-insert the missing words: “I–I mean, they–are jealous of White women. Let me give you all of these reasons why I–oops, they are jealous”.*
And the “White men” comment is a big red flag. Notice how Mel’s focus is on White women being on a pedestal (which in turn leads to White women getting more male attention, let’s assume), and that’s what Black women want (especially the men). So if the three of us have men (who happen to be White) and she doesn’t, who’s jealous again? 😛
People always want to make their personal problems group problems so that they don’t have to think about individual deficiencies.
*I wish I knew how to use the strikethrough in HTML.
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@ Natasha W:
But here’s something I have to say to you, personally, ES: You’re not an intellectually honest person. Yes, let me explain.
When the subject of internalized racism/white worship amongst ASIANS comes up, you’re one of the first to attempt to refute the claims with all your might. I’ve seen this several times. On your blog you treat these issues, superficially, but not here. Every single shred of evidence showing it –and there is arguably more evidence for internalized racism/white worship amongst Asians than there is for it amongst blacks– you attempt to rationalize or sweep under the rug. When people say that maybe the reason nearly half of all Asian women in the U.S. marry white men is because they are suffering from internalized racism, you say it’s not. I know why you do this — because your mother is Asian and father white, but come on. This is not honest.
So I find it very deceptive of you to come here and try to say that we are the ones in denial. First, sweep in front of your own house before you tell someone else their house isn’t clean.
I know the post of which you speak of me “refuting with all my might” the claims of Asians having white worship. And despite your fairly extreme interpretation of my words, I was trying to provide balance to what had previously been a fairly simplistic analysis of the AW/WM phenomenon. I don’t say there’s no internalised racism/white worship going on, just that whoever it was in those comments seemed to think it was the only reason AW/WM got together. There’s seemingly a constant implication that goes around on these threads that the only reason anyone gets into a relationship with a white person is because there is something psychologically wrong with them. I think Menelik Charles or J may have implied that you, Natasha, suffer self-hate because you are in a relationship with a white guy (hoping I’m getting my details correct). Now I think that’s crap as well, and denies people’s individuality. I believe I made comments arguing against Menelik then.
You seem to interpret much more into my words than is actually there, and thus make conclusions about my integrity. Which seems true of your reaction to Mel, which is why I questioned it. Having read Mel’s blog quite a few times – and thus having some idea of where her head is at – I find it highly strange that she is being painted in the way she is by yourself and some of the others here. To conclude so much about one person, and effectively call one of them a b*tch, based on your interpretation of their comments, is more “intellectually dishonest” to me.
You notice I just asked a question in my last comment. I didn’t make any assumptions about what sort of person you are. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt before slapping a label them, so it’s a shame you don’t extend the same courtesy to me.
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Eurasian Sensation,
“I don’t say there’s no internalised racism/white worship going on, just that whoever it was in those comments seemed to think it was the only reason AW/WM got together.”
No one said that though. They just said “Hey, what about this”.
And you didn’t say “Yes, that might be a reason”. You outright denied it. Anyone who is unclear about that can go see for themselves.
“You seem to interpret much more into my words than is actually there, and thus make conclusions about my integrity. Which seems true of your reaction to Mel, which is why I questioned it.”
Oh, you were questioning my comments? I thought that comment was addressed to all of the commenters here (other than Mel).
Why didn’t you just address it to Natasha, then, like I addressed you? This is also part of the reason why you’re intellectually dishonest — you won’t clearly address people. It’s just proper etiquette to address the person you are talking about, instead of creating confusion by making things ambiguous.
And I don’t see you addressing any of the bizarre interpretations that Mel’s made. What do you have to say about those? Or do you only have a problem with people’s comments when they go against your prior beliefs?
And once again, I did not call her a b*tch. She’s also said far worse on this post than that, and you’re not calling her out on it.
You’ve been commenting on this blog for how long? And I’ve given you the “benefit of the doubt” the whole time. But you’ve made it clear that you tend to look before you leap and do not clearly look at both sides before taking a stance.
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Furthermore, you have some nerve to be whining about misinterpreting comments since you obviously misinterpreted mine.
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Natasha:
Now, hold on, Thad. I can prove a negative. I’ve done it before in lab, it’s part of being a black-woman-biologist-extraordinaire. ; )
Proving that black women have HIGHER self-esteem isn’t proving a negative, Natasha, not that I doubt your proof, there.
I just find it interesting how people think that they are being rational when they say “Well prove it DOESN’T exist”. 😀
In any case, “self esteem” is one of these feel-good, Western technobabble terms which attempts to quantify something which it’s almost impossible to quanity. People talk like you can measure self-esteem as if it were body temperature or a physical constant.
Personally, I don’t buy the “blacks have lower self-esteem” crap simply because it doesn’t jibe with what I see annecdotally.
Also, if life-expectancy somehow measures health and happiness, then – as I said before – black women must be as healthy and happy as white men because the two groups have been tied for half a century now.
Funny how these sort of things (life expectancy) only become a relevant look into health and happiness when they are applied to women.
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Thad,
“Proving that black women have HIGHER self-esteem isn’t proving a negative, Natasha, not that I doubt your proof, there.”
Ssshh!
No one saw what I did there. (No) Thanks for calling it out. 😉
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@ Natasha W:
Saying that “b*tch please” is not the same as calling someone a b*tch is pretty shaky as far as I’m concerned. It’s certainly disrespect, and Mel obviously took it that way. Maybe it means something different in the circle you move in, I dunno.
I may well misinterpret comments. I don’t think I go on the attack based on them, however. I try to give my self room to be corrected, and don’t like to make too many assumptions about people’s psychology, because frankly, I don’t know any of you apart from a few words on a screen.
If I haven’t called Mel out on whatever she’s done before, well, I’m not the police of this blog and don’t have time to read every single word on it. If there’s other history there, I’m afraid I don’t know about it, but in the context of this particular thread, I felt to me that the debate with her had got out of proportion and devolved into assumptions about her character (from yourself, Witchsista and Jasmin, I believe). My impression was that because her opinion coincided with Chuck, she got lumped in with what Chuck is (ie. not very supportive of black women).
Oh, you were questioning my comments? I thought that comment was addressed to all of the commenters here (other than Mel).
I guess my first comment was referring to you as well as Witchsista and Jasmin, but it’s sometimes hard to keep track of who says what. Since you replied to me, then my second comment was to you.
Regarding internalised racism among Asians:
And you didn’t say “Yes, that might be a reason”. You outright denied it. Anyone who is unclear about that can go see for themselves.
Now are we talking about the “Asian double eyelid surgery” thread? I assume it is, so let me give you 3 sentences from one of my comments:
“…not saying you are wrong. And there will be many cases of Asian people to whom what you say will apply. But I think you are oversimplifying.”
“You say Asians mix with whites more than with other races. (I’m not from the US so I’ll assume that is an accurate description.) Your reasoning for this has some truth to it (I won’t deny that there is a lot of Asian racism towards blacks), but I’ll add a couple of factors:”
“So again, this is not to say that you are wrong in how you have described many Asians. White brainwashing IS a factor. But I think some things are not as simple as how you have described.”
And there was another exchange between you and I about how I thought you had read the data incorrectly about how many Asians marry interracially.
Is this what you call “outright denying” something, Natasha?
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Eurasian Sensation,
“…as far as I’m concerned.”
Don’t be. Because I wasn’t addressing you.
I mean, how presumptuous do you have to be to think someone actually cares about your personal feelings towards their comments that weren’t directed towards you?
That’s one thing you have to learn: when no one is addressing you, don’t put yourself in the middle of things. You do this time and time again.
“If I haven’t called Mel out on whatever she’s done before, well, I’m not the police of this blog and don’t have time to read every single word on it.”
No sh*t.
You’re not the “police” yet you feel the need to go around to posts telling commenters whenever their comments, directed at other people and not yourself, are “inappropriate”, “arrogant”, etc.
Thanks, Captain-Save-A-Lot, but we’ve got this under control.
“I felt to me that the debate with her had got out of proportion and devolved into assumptions about her character (from yourself, Witchsista and Jasmin, I believe).”
Look, I’m going to say this as kindly as possible because I really think you just have no idea how to pick your battles:
Unless you’re going to be fair — Mind your own business.
No one cares how you “felt” about anything. Maybe if you were actually looking at both sides instead of automatically backing your buddies up, someone might. There were assumptions made on both sides, yet you’re pointing at myself, Jasmin, and Witchsistah, because you’ve visited Mel’s blog and you “know” her? Save it. No really, please do.
“My impression was that because her opinion coincided with Chuck, she got lumped in with what Chuck is (ie. not very supportive of black women).”
If you think Mel is supportive of black women, at all, you haven’t been following along. Which is another reason why you should probably keep it moving.
Re the “Asian debate”: Framing your argument as agreeing with the other side, then refuting the other side right after is a classic tactic, and yes, it is denying. It is a way to make yourself seem reasonable (which you’re very concerned with in appearance, but not so much in practice), while still denying the claims of the opposition and/or making their claims seem slightly relevant, at best. Nice try, but no. Anyone can see through that.
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I was trying to provide balance to what had previously been a fairly simplistic analysis of the AW/WM phenomenon.
What makes you think that Natasha and I weren’t trying to do the same with Mel’s and Chuck’s you-know-you-inferior-American-cullud-gals-are-jealous-of-WW’s-inherent-superiority, inherently-superior-WW-aren’t-ever-jealous-of-lowly-ni88er-bytches crap? The assumption is that BW are always jealous because there is truly something for them to be jealous of and that is the pedastal WW are put on. And the assumption behind that is WW get put on the pedastal because they DESERVE IT. BW don’t because we don’t deserve it because we’re inferior. Trying to argue that maybe BW are angry at the unfair, crappy treatment we get is futile because we get, “Hhhhhhhmmmm…NOPE! It’s because y’all are inferious, jealous cullud heffas.”
And then we mentioned the treatment we got from WW when they learned our partners were Black. “What about THAT?” we asked. We got “LALALALALALALALALALALALA!!!! I CAN’T HEAR YOU!!! LALALALALALALA!!! WW ARE NEVER JEALOUS OF YOU, DARKIE!!! LALALALALALALALALALALALA!!!”
But I guess it’s fine and easier to believe that AMERICAN Black womanhood is just a bunch of inferior haters.
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Exactly, Witchsistah. If this were Asian women, instead of black women, you know that he’d be the first in here to debate with Chuck and Mel. He wouldn’t give two craps about whether they said all, most, or even a few Asian woman.
But we shouldn’t debate with them, because he basically agrees with their main points, as he stated in his first comment.
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@ Natasha W:
Framing your argument as agreeing with the other side, then refuting the other side right after is a classic tactic, and yes, it is denying. It is a way to make yourself seem reasonable (which you’re very concerned with in appearance, but not so much in practice), while still denying the claims of the opposition and/or making their claims seem slightly relevant, at best. Nice try, but no. Anyone can see through that.
Wow. For real? So you think this is a “tactic” I’m using? I thought it was a genuine exchange of ideas. You think I’m “trying to make myself seem reasonable?”
I never knew I was such a Machiavellian figure. Apparently you know me better than I know myself.
Alternatively, it’s possible that I was trying to acknowledge that there can be truth in both sides of an argument. Radical, I know.
Perhaps you want all issues to be resolvable in neatly packaged yes/no answers, but I don’t think things are always that simple. So I see no problem in saying that something is a factor but only one of several factors.
And yes, it saddens me to see abusive words and personal attacks get thrown around, because I idealistically believe that it is nicer to respectfully disagree with someone. Perhaps that’s unrealistic. It’s the relationship counsellor (my day job) coming out in me I guess.
I’m out.
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Eurasian Sensation,
“Alternatively, it’s possible that I was trying to acknowledge that there can be truth in both sides of an argument.”
No, you came in here agreeing with one side of the argument; you didn’t even fully read the discussion, as you admitted. Do yourself a favor next time and actually read the whole thing before you decide to offer your opinion. That shouldn’t be too much to ask, or is it? Is that being “unreasonable” as you like to portray anyone who disagrees with you?
I’d much rather be honest, than dishonest, regardless of your or anyone else’s feelings. I care less about using “bad words”, than a bad argument; we’re adults here, we can handle it.
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See what happens when I don’t engage in a debate, Abagond? The same old s*** happens anyway.
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And yes, it saddens me to see abusive words and personal attacks get thrown around, because I idealistically believe that it is nicer to respectfully disagree with someone. Perhaps that’s unrealistic. It’s the relationship counsellor (my day job) coming out in me I guess.
I started off asking Mel a simple question. No cuss words were used by me. What did I get in response? I got told that as a Black American woman, I was basically jealous, inferior, violent, crime-ridden scum. Where was your chagrin then? You came out tisk-tisking us over how we treated Mel. Where was your finger-waggling at her? Where was your admonishment that she not try and slap the evil, Black bytch label on me and Natasha for daring to disagree with her and show her that SHE was included in her own description of BW being jealous simply because we’re BW since SHE is Black herself?
Seems like your tristess is one-sided and only for those who attack BW (here Black American women) rather on the BW defending ourselves.
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Witchsistah,
“Where was your admonishment that she not try and slap the evil, Black bytch label on me and Natasha for daring to disagree with her and show her that SHE was included in her own description of BW being jealous simply because we’re BW since SHE is Black herself?”
He’s not going to do that because, like I said above, he agrees with her sentiment:
“Maybe I’m missing something, but why are people assuming that Mel is talking about ALL black women?
Has she said this? Or is she talking about trends that do occur among black women?”
Hence why it is fundamentally dishonest for him to present himself as trying to see both sides of the situation; he already made up his mind before he entered the discussion as to what black women are and how they feel.
“Seems like your tristess is one-sided and only for those who attack BW (here Black American women) rather on the BW defending ourselves.”
Clearly it is, but he’s trying to portray me/us as the unreasonable ones. That’s his schtick: the “good guy” who defends against evildoing. Except he forgot to tell everyone that he decides what is good and evil based on his personal biases.
I’m glad this discussion took place so we could see people’s true thoughts and feelings which are hidden in less controversial scenarios.
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*tristesse
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but he’s trying to portray me/us as the unreasonable ones.
Dontcha know, BW who refuse to eat other’s shyt are ALWAYS unreasonable!
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*others’
My brain needs more sleep.
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@ Natasha and Witchsista:
I’m glad this discussion took place so we could see people’s true thoughts and feelings which are hidden in less controversial scenarios.
It must be nice to be right all the time.
Alternatively, you might want to consider that there can be a difference between the way you interpret something, and how it actually is.
I said (and Natasha bolded) :
“Has she said this? Or is she talking about trends that do occur among black women?”
Natasha said:
Hence why it is fundamentally dishonest for him to present himself as trying to see both sides of the situation; he already made up his mind before he entered the discussion as to what black women are and how they feel.
I don’t know what black women feel. The phrase that you highlighted in bold doesn’t say that. It’s just like if I asked, “Is Natasha talking about how ES is intellectually dishonest?”, it doesn’t mean I have made up my mind that ES is intellectually dishonest.
What I presume Mel’s argument to be – that racism has had negative impacts on black women’s self esteem – is a point worth considering. Is it correct? I dunno.
However, I don’t think it deserves the implication that Mel has a messed up need to dump on black women, exemplified by this comment by Witchsista:
Because, Natasha, it’s like you said. Folks want to keep BW as their scapegoat, dumping ground and whipping “boy.” Like you said, no matter how shytty their lives are, at least they can look at us and say, “Well at least I’m not THAT!” Mel and Chuck are all about that. “C’mon, BW. Admit you’re jealous of WW (as your inferior, ugly-azzes should be) so I can feel better about myself for not being one of YOU!”
Witchsista apparently has the power to read minds.
So no, I don’t have an axe to grind with black women – despite what you may think – and I don’t think an impartial person would find any comment anywhere on this blog or mine that suggests that I do. What does bug me is when you seem to think you have got a commenter’s true motivations “figured out” (be it me, Mel or whoever) because of how you interpret various comments through your own filter.
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Eurasian,
I thought you were “out”?
Look, if you can’t see that what Witchsistah said about Mel is dead on the money, then we have nothing to discuss.
This isn’t about you — you made it about you by interjecting yourself in the conversation. I don’t hate you, I actually considered you a well-meaning commenter before this post. I’m willing to take back all I’ve said about you here if you actually show that it’s not true by considering all sides of this discussion, but you haven’t done that as of yet.
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@ Natasha:
I thought I was out too! But as I’m sure you understand, it’s always tempting to want to have the last word.
I don’t hate you, I actually considered you a well-meaning commenter before this post.
Then in all likelihood, I still am a well-meaning commenter, whether I’m wrong or right or a bit of both. Disagreeing with you on one issue doesn’t suddenly make me something else.
I’m willing to take back all I’ve said about you here if you actually show that it’s not true by considering all sides of this discussion, but you haven’t done that as of yet.
I fear I may not be able to do this to your satisfaction, because suspect that “considering all sides of this discussion” really means “agree with Natasha”.
Some of Mel’s comments (about you being validated by white men and about crime in the US) are most definitely out of line. No question. But I’m also aware that she was firing back after from pretty unpleasant comments her way, which shouldn’t be conveniently ignored either.
But I’m afraid I don’t see the bit where Mel clearly displays that she thinks BW are inferior and ugly and she doesn’t want to be one.
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No, you’re not well-meaning. As you’ve shown us all on this post. And as I look through your old comments, I see it is a pattern.
No, looking at both sides means just that. Show me two or even one comment prior to the last where you’ve actually considered both sides of this debate.
Scroll back up if you don’t see where Mel said BW are/feel inferior.
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Again Natasha, nothing I can say (well, say honestly, anyway) is likely to satisfy you, so I’m not sure why I should waste my time or yours doing so. Exemplified by the fact that a single disagreement with you has apparently transformed me in your eyes from “well-meaning commenter” to some nefarious scheming hater.
And regarding me “making this all about me”, I beg to differ. I asked what was wrong with Mel’s contentions and why she deserved the implications about her character.
You made it “all about me” by bringing up my character, my previous commenting history, my apparent negativity towards BW, and my alleged intellectual dishonesty.
Oh and about whether or not “b*tch please” is offensive or not; Mel seemed to get offended by it, so I guess it is offensive. If I said it to a work colleague, I’d be hauled in to Human Resources quick smart. If my girlfriend went around saying it during arguments, she would soon get slapped. It may not be offensive in your context, but don’t think that your context is the same as everyone else’s.
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Natasha:
Where does Mel say that black American women ARE inferior (as opposed to FEEL inferior) and sets herself above them? I did not see it, though this thread has become so long I could have forgotten it or missed it. I do remember her comment about the gun, but you and Witchsistah were on about this before she said that.
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Eurasian Sensation,
You disagreeing with me is not the reason why you’re dishonest. Let’s just stop that charade since I’ve disagreed with nearly everyone on this blog, from Witchsistah to Mira to abagond, and I don’t think they’re dishonest. I think you’re dishonest, however, because:
(1) You’re presenting yourself as the “voice of reason” when your first comment and subsequent comments were not taking into account both sides of the debate.
(2) You would be very hesitant to automatically presume the truth of the statements made on this post if they were about Asian women (as your performance in prior posts has shown). Yet you want to call others out for doing exactly what you would do.
(3) Since you consider Mel a friend of yours, you’re biased in this debate yet you keep denying that you are.
Your biases towards this discussion are relevant. We couldn’t have a true discussion without pointing them out and they would have eventually came out anyway.
Mel is offended by my words?…And? I’m offended that she is being so foolish on this post and on this blog in general. We all get offended.
It’s not my job to make sure people are not offended in debates, especially when they are throwing out as much barbs as they are receiving.
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abagond
“Where does Mel say that black American women ARE inferior (as opposed to FEEL inferior) and sets herself above them?”
Mel has implied or directly stated that black American women are less than other women and/or feel less than other women, in nearly every one of her comments here. Just a little sampling:
“You both sound ANGRY and like every worst stereotype of black women ever.”
Because black women are angry, of course. That’s a new one… not.
“I’ll say this. Please don’t mistake me for any of you. I am not argumentative or feisty.”
Argumentative and feisty too, aren’t they? Even though she spent a few days on this post arguing with others herself.
And the granddaddy of them all:
“But, I guess, since you’re all with white men, you must feel vindicated of the ‘ugly black woman stigma’ since a white dude validated you as pretty by dating you.”
Please note that NO ONE prior to this comment had said anything about “ugly black woman stigma”; we were merely talking about self-esteem.
So it’s very indicative that her mind automatically went in that direction. She clearly thinks that way — black women are ugly. And they need white men to validate them. You all can read context: if you don’t see that, it’s because you’re trying really hard not to.
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ES,
B*tch please is tone argument, not ad hom argument. And you harping on it (rather than what Mel said vs. what Natasha said) is disingenuous at best. “Trends that do occur among Black women” is weaksauce. If there are no Black women present that exhibit these “trends” (which isn’t what Mel said, her argument was, “You’re jealous, admit it! Lalalalala…”) then maybe Mel (or you, or anyone who sees a “trend”) should step your friend game up. Arguing whether there exists a person who does X (i.e., whether there exists a Black woman who’s jealous of White women) and whether X is innate to that person (i.e., Black women are innately jealous of White women) are two different things. The former will always be true, the latter will always be false. Mel is arguing the latter. You don’t seem to know what you’re arguing, tbh.
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To pick up on what Jasmin said:
Many people reading this thread are going to fault Natasha and Witchsistah on tone. Mel did it, Eurasian and Thad did it. Most white lurkers are probably doing it as I speak.
It is not because their tone is particularly worse than anyone else’s but because they are black. I know that sounds like a completely unfair statement, but when you are black American and stick up for yourself many will see you as angry and hateful no matter how calmly, no matter how reasonably you try to make your point.
That “b*tch please” did not come out of nowhere but people are acting like it did. That is the tone argument to the max.
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I know people are seeing me as more hostile on this post than I am actually being. And I know it’s because I’m black. If this were in person, however, everyone would notice I barely raise my voice even when I say things like “b*tch please”. And I have the lowest, most tinny-sounding voice in the first place; I’m not in the least bit scary.
Other than a couple comments, nothing I said was particularly more hostile than what Mel said. And no, that comment didn’t come out of nowhere and it wasn’t meant to cut Mel down. That was more a statement of incredulity than anything else. But it seems Eurasian is only harping on it because (a) there is nothing else I said that can make me out to be unreasonable and (b) so he can make me look like a “baaaaddd and awful” person.
Spare me.
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Natasha,
That was more a statement of incredulity than anything else.
I thought it was obvious, which is why I didn’t comment, but since Abagond posted the ad hom post I decided to toss in my $.05. 🙂
You could’ve said, “What the hell?!?” and the meaning would’ve been the same, since you went on to talk about the points in question (unlike some people, lol), so I don’t see how this is about the word b*tch anymore than the phrases “Well ain’t that a b*tch” or “Life’s a b*tch” are.
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Jasmin,
“You could’ve said, “What the hell?!?” and the meaning would’ve been the same”
Precisely! Thank you. Those statements are kin, if you’re familiar with how they’re used.
You’re a smart cookie, Jasmin. You’re one of the few who understood that.
“I don’t see how this is about the word b*tch anymore than the phrases “Well ain’t that a b*tch”…
I say that too. Maybe I should stop, lest people think I’m calling them a b*tch and get all “offended”. Lol.
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Witchsista apparently has the power to read minds.
First off, it’s Witchsistah (thar be an “h” at the end). And secondly, I can also meditate and conjure dragons.
And no, it’s not about reading minds. It’s about having been down the “ugly, unwanted, undesirable BW are soooo jealous of all creation” road enough to know what the destination is. I just don’t see the need to take such an unpleasant journey.
And yet again, all I did was ask Mel a question with no name-calling and definitely no cussing. I didn’t cuss at her once, but she could not even be bothered to acknowledge that because she was too busy loading all American BW onto the evil, Black bytch boat complete with her own anecdata about violent, American BW. Because, you know, that’s how we ALL are!
But whose behavior is questioned and scrutinized? The BW defending BW, not the one criticizing BW. She’s made out to be the innocent victim of evil, Black, mean girls. It was only after a long discussion that ES finally admitted that Mel wasn’t pristine during the whole exchange. But even then, it was because the evil, Black bytches MADE her.
Lesson for today: Wanna get a pat on the head and a pass on your sketchy behavior? Spit on BW. You’ll be totes excused.
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Natasha,
I try–should I be impressed by my superior grasp of the English language? 😛
Witchsistah,
Don’t forget, by some miraculous powers of split identity, you can say something negative about people of your own “group” and somehow not be talking about yourself. Because “All Black women are X” + “I’m a Black woman” doesn’t = “Therefore, I’m X”. Seriously, I tutored Beginning Logic for 3 years, really now?
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Witchsistah, do you get me? I think you get me.
I don’t think I’m paranoid, but it just can’t be a coincidence that every time someone is saying something disparaging about black women, everyone agrees. Black men seem to get the “pity card” from non-black people, but not black women. And black women are made out to be the bad guys, somehow, for daring to disagree. This scenario has played out several times before on this blog. Do people really think that lowly of black women? This is all very new to me.
—–
Jasmin,
“I try–should I be impressed by my superior grasp of the English language?”
LMAO. Yes, you should be. Very much impressed.
“Don’t forget, by some miraculous powers of split identity, you can say something negative about people of your own “group” and somehow not be talking about yourself.”
We don’t even need to (again) get into how utterly illogical this reasoning is.
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Do people really think that lowly of black women?
Apparently they do. Like you said, look at how it plays out on this blog constantly.
And no, I’m not looking for people to think that BW f8rt Chanel No. 5, pizz Moet Chandon and p00p Dove soap. I’m getting tired of BW being disparaged being constantly excused, condoned and ignored, here, in other places online and in the 3-D world.
Hell, even when we accomplish and achieve POSITVE things they’re turned into a negative (see the post about how mothers encouraging BW to go to college and get an education is keeping us from finding husbands). And online, it’s gotten to the point where BW catch more flack for defending ourselves against all sorts of sprurious attacks than the folks who MAKE said attacks. I guess we’re just supposed to swallow that we’re scum.
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It is not because their tone is particularly worse than anyone else’s but because they are black. I know that sounds like a completely unfair statement, but when you are black American and stick up for yourself many will see you as angry and hateful no matter how calmly, no matter how reasonably you try to make your point.
That “b*tch please” did not come out of nowhere but people are acting like it did. That is the tone argument to the max.
Bull, Abagond.
And my point isn’t that Natasha’s tone is WORSE, in and of itself: it’s that it is worse than mine and yet my tone is up for criticism while Natasha’s isn’t?
Bulls***, pure and simple. She’s not sticking up for herself, she’s flaming others, in no uncertain terms. And while I couldn’t care less, personally, I think that it’s the height of hypocrisy for you to pat one flamer on the back while you’re castigating another poster for stuff that is far less ad hominem and far less offensive.
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Natasha W says,
Witchsistah, do you get me? I think you get me.
I don’t think I’m paranoid, but it just can’t be a coincidence that every time someone is saying something disparaging about black women, everyone agrees. Black men seem to get the “pity card” from non-black people, but not black women. And black women are made out to be the bad guys, somehow, for daring to disagree. This scenario has played out several times before on this blog.
Do people really think that lowly of black women? This is all very new to me.
Witchsistah says,
Apparently they do. Like you said, look at how it plays out on this blog constantly.
And no, I’m not looking for people to think that BW f8rt Chanel No. 5, pizz Moet Chandon and p00p Dove soap. I’m getting tired of BW being disparaged being constantly excused, condoned and ignored, here, in other places online and in the 3-D world.
Hell, even when we accomplish and achieve POSITVE things they’re turned into a negative (see the post about how mothers encouraging BW to go to college and get an education is keeping us from finding husbands). And online, it’s gotten to the point where BW catch more flack for defending ourselves against all sorts of sprurious attacks than the folks who MAKE said attacks. I guess we’re just supposed to swallow that we’re scum.
Natasha W and Witchsistah,
Thanks for your insightful/on point comments regarding the ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE that BW are EXPECTED to tolerate.
It’s high time that EVERYONE in America learns to RESPECT the HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY of BW.
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@ Witchsistah:
Apologies about the mis-spelling.
And yet again, all I did was ask Mel a question with no name-calling and definitely no cussing.
Cussing? No. I could care less about that.
You did however seek to imply that Mel thinks thusly about BW: “no matter how shytty their lives are, at least they can look at us and say, “Well at least I’m not THAT!” Mel and Chuck are all about that. “C’mon, BW. Admit you’re jealous of WW (as your inferior, ugly-azzes should be) so I can feel better about myself for not being one of YOU!”
And you wonder why she got pissed at you.
And later also that she thinks this:
you-know-you-inferior-American-cullud-gals-are-jealous-of-WW’s-inherent-superiority, inherently-superior-WW-aren’t-ever-jealous-of-lowly-ni88er-bytches crap? The assumption is that BW are always jealous because there is truly something for them to be jealous of and that is the pedastal WW are put on. And the assumption behind that is WW get put on the pedastal because they DESERVE IT. BW don’t because we don’t deserve it because we’re inferior.
Perhaps Chuck thinks that way; given the nature of his blog, I wouldn’t be surprised if he did. Does Mel? I dunno. Just because she agrees with Chuck on one point doesn’t mean she comes with the same agenda as Chuck.
If you or Natasha made a comment that was critical of something that BW do, I wouldn’t automatically interpret that as meaning you think BW are inferior or anything like that, because you would be critiquing from within. Given that Mel is also a black woman (who judging from her blog seems generally progressive and pro-black), I interpret her comments the same way.
Your comment about my thinking: But even then, it was because the evil, Black bytches MADE her typifies your approach. I do not regard you as evil Black bytches. But you imply that I do, just as you implied all the above things about Mel. I’m surprised that you don’t see how inflaming this is. Not everything needs to be funnelled through the lens of “it’s because I’m a BW”.
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@ Abagond:
Many people reading this thread are going to fault Natasha and Witchsistah on tone. Mel did it, Eurasian and Thad did it. Most white lurkers are probably doing it as I speak.
It is not because their tone is particularly worse than anyone else’s but because they are black. I know that sounds like a completely unfair statement, but when you are black American and stick up for yourself many will see you as angry and hateful no matter how calmly, no matter how reasonably you try to make your point.
I have to concur with Thad. Utter tripe. You were spot on in one respect though – it does sound like a completely unfair statement.
I thought my initial comment was simple enough; asking what was so unreasonable about Mel’s arguments that led to the sh*t storm.
Natasha replied that I had missed something – no problem there. She then insinuated that I’m an intellectually dishonest and deceptive person who has a bias against black women.
According to your recent post, I believe that’s called an “ad hominem”.
Given that there are many of the regular commenters here who are BW, and given that I have generally co-existed amicably with them up until this point, it surprises me that you have concluded that I am disagreeing with Natasha and Witchsista because of bias. Particularly as this is the first major disagreement I have had with Natasha, and she has previously seen me as well-meaning, until I had the temerity to have an opinion substantially different from hers (which apparently has revealed my truly sinister nature).
No doubt some people do see BW as aggressive purely because they are BW, as you say. But in this case, when certain BW are making constant negative insinuations about the character of anyone who disagrees with them (including another BW)? I think you need to pick your targets better, Abagond.
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Don’t you just love how this post’s discussion has done a complete 180?
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I knew her (Storro) story was a lie the minute I read that “hey there pretty girl” comment.
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Eurasian,
“Cussing? No. I could care less about that.”
*side-eye*
Oh-kay!… that’s why you spent the last several comments mentioning it, right?
Let’s at least try to be consistent here.
“According to your recent post, I believe that’s called an “ad hominem”.
I don’t see why you can never just be straightforward.
I offered my opinion of you AFTER the argument. It had nothing to do with the argument. I made it clear it was not part of it and even started a new paragraph. So quit your whining.
Trust me, if I wanted it to be an ad hominem, there would have been no confusion.
“Particularly as this is the first major disagreement I have had with Natasha, and she has previously seen me as well-meaning, until I had the temerity to have an opinion substantially different from hers (which apparently has revealed my truly sinister nature).”
I’ve had disagreements with you before. But it was no big deal. And this isn’t a big deal either, except you want to keep going with it and talk about it on other posts.
And no, can you just stop that “you hate me because I disagree with you” crap? You’re not five years old. I’ve already clarified this here:
This doesn’t have ANYTHING to do with disagreement but your essential way, that is dishonest way, of discussing. Hell, your dishonesty is even on display right now in that you keep pushing this idea when I’ve already said that’s not the reason.
Then you fold your hands and say “Well, I didn’t do anything!”
Bullsh*t.
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@ Natasha,
The difference between this disagreement and any previous ones is that you were previously content to discuss issues and didn’t feel the need to question my integrity. As I felt was being attacked I felt obliged to defend myself.
This is all quite exhausting to be honest, and I’m content to leave it at that.
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No, the difference is exactly what I said it was. Why would I not be content to discuss those issues and not this one? Think about that. The difference is your approach.
If you would leave it, that would be great.
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The same here.
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Eurasian Sensation,
You keep omitting her singling out Black AMERICAN women for her ire. According to Mel, we’re mostly violence-prone, crime-ridden chicks as well as jealous of WW. She uses her citizenship as a Black Canadian to not only separate herself from “those” BW, but to elevate herself ABOVE them.
Don’t you just love how this post’s discussion has done a complete 180?
Honestly, I expected it to. Folks just love to believe that BW are the scum of the earth and the mule of the world.
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Keep Black Canadians out of this, LOL!
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Getting back to the original blog post: I live in Vancouver, WA, where this hoax was front-page news while the cops were looking for the ‘black female assailant’. The minute the lie was aired for what it was – a woman disfiguring herself to get money for cosmetic surgery – it is virtually a non-issue around here now. For me, there were two reasons I found this so-called ‘attack’ unbelievable: One, acid attacks are rare in the United States. Two, there is a relatively small Black population here in Vancouver – it’s roughly 3% of the population, give or take (yes, I’m a 3%er, LOL). I’d venture to guess that Ms. Storro reached into her bag of tricks and dusted off the “black stranger” excuse because it nearly worked for another white, local murderess, Diane Downs. She shot all of her three children, killing one, and blamed a “bushy-haired stranger” (among others) for the crime, although she herself had committed this horrible act.
Bottom line, Ms. Storro should be forced to repay every cent that was raised in her behalf. She is a thief and extortionist and should serve prison time. She hasn’t even had her wrist slapped yet! No, she’s resting comfortably in some country-club mental facility for her ‘delicate nerves’. I guess I don’t expect much in the way of truth from an Idaho transplant!
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I’m a black woman and white women for the most part aren’t even a thought in my mind. I didn’t know we were all supposed to be insecure and jealous of them, that’s funny.
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I’m glad this happened because it sets a precedent just in case something like this happens again. I knew her story was suspect when she said “jealous look on her face” as if a jealous look can be defined.
WW may hold a so-called superiority complex towards black women, but black women have a so-called superiority complex towards white women too for a number of reasons (better bodies and self esteem, ageless skin, resilience) just to name a few. Of course, no one is better than the other.
It’s a good thing that this female made the police officers and white people look bad because maybe next time it’ll make them think twice. What many black people still fail to understand is that white people believe negative things about black people that are actually true about themselves. I don’t believe for one second that white people’s anger was mostly because Bethany, the female was white and helpless; it was because of fear; they are afraid that blacks are capable of doing to them what they done to us for years. Plain and simple.
Black women could learn to practice the art of silence sometimes. Everything does not need a response. I believe a big part of the reason why bw are used as scapegoats a lot is because we always follow up the foolishness and always have something to say in response. You would not believe how confused/flabbergasted and angry people get when I ignore their foolishness, particularly white people because many of them feel the need to have someone of color feel inferior to them. It really does confuse them and make them angry when I don’t give them the time of day. When I say “don’t give time of day” I am not speaking of maliciously trying to make someone feel low. I don’t do that, but I don’t acknowledge foolishness or games they play to try to get a reaction. Ignore it and simply don’t acknowledge their existence, and if you do, do it casually. Either one or two things will happen: they will give up and wonder about you from a distance and/or will try to compliment you and kiss up to you. IT HAPPENS EVERY TIME.
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Some of you guys made very valid points on this issue. I know, I’m late to this conversation by like, a year. 😉
As a very light-skinned woman of mixed race, I’ve had some pretty interesting experiences with stuff like this too. I’ve had women of different backgrounds act very bitchy and catty towards me. They might have been jealous. Some definitely were and they did not attempt to hide it.
Anyway, Bethany Storro should be punished for her lies. She seems to be a very sick individual. I agree that she isn’t pretty at all. I know this sounds mean, but the self-inflicted acid might improve her looks. 🙂
I believe that some Black women ARE jealous of white women. It goes both ways, but for different reasons. Black women have been belittled for centuries while images of whiteness were pushed down their throats. Somebody in this thread mentioned the novel “The Bluest Eye”. I agree with their statement wholeheartedly. The doll test conducted in the 1960s was also mentioned.
It seems disingenuous to pretend that all Black women, especially in this country, have been completely liberated from oppressive Eurocentric ideals of beauty. Most have learned to accept their own unique beauty and they do not feel inferior to non-Black women. But some have never moved beyond wishing for lighter skin, so-called “good” hair, or the pain of childhood taunts. There is also colorism due to internalized racism.
If some Black women are jealous of white women it is because white women have been uplifted at their expense. It is only natural to feel hurt and annoyed when you are constantly being told that you are at the bottom of the barrel because you aren’t white or close to it. If all types of beauty were truly recognized, this might not be an issue.
On some level, Bethany Storro seems to be aware of how Black women are perceived in American society…i.e., aggressive, angry, ugly, etc. This is how she was able to convince people that some “jealous” evil Black woman attacked her out of the blue. She is far from beautiful. She also does not have blonde hair or light eyes. But she was able to garner sympathy because she is young and white.
I’m just thankful that the cops didn’t arrest an innocent person who fit the description Bethany provided. A Black woman’s life could have been ruined by this. It is truly sad that this girl is so desperate for attention.
I agree with Poetess, too. It bothers me that 9 times out of 10 when a woman is described as “beautiful” in America, she is a blonde white woman. The person is often average-looking but by virtue of being white with blonde hair she is viewed as gorgeous. The only brunette that seems to be a major American sex symbol is Angelina Jolie and she is overrated, IMO. Halle Berry is as well, although she is a woman of color and very pretty.
I have nothing against blondes or white women in general, especially since I am biracial…but I’ve noticed that some of them do indeed believe that they are better than women of color. There is jealousy on both sides but it plays out in different ways. As some people have stated, when a white woman is jealous of a Black or Asian or mixed woman, it is often because she is uncomfortable that a non-white female is receiving more male attention than she is. Some white women are accustomed to being the center of attention because whiteness is viewed as default and if they are racist or insecure, it’s a bit difficult to handle when the attention shifts to a woman who is not generally considered the ideal because of her race.
I’ve experienced this personally. I knew a girl who once referred to Black women as “n*gger bitches” and told me that she felt privileged to be blonde. She was upset at having to serve a White guy with his Black girlfriend at a restaurant. She felt comfortable saying this to me, I suppose, because my skin color is basically the same as hers. Never mind the fact that I am of mixed race…she thought this crap would fly with me. Needless to say, I no longer associate with people who hold views like that. My mother is a Black woman and I will not allow some low-class piece of filth to insult me or the Black women I know.
There are some white women out there who believe that they deserve accolades simply for being white and female. They expect male attention. They believe, subconsciously, that their looks are superior to non-white women who are “below” them in the racial hierarchy…even some of the most unattractive ones believe this. Most white women are cool, but there will always be those few that believe they are inherently superior to women with curly or kinky dark hair, dark eyes, and dark skin. There is more value assigned to white womanhood than there is to Black womanhood.
This is why some Black women are angry. When you constantly have to battle unfair stereotypes and assumptions and hateful comments about the way you look, you will develop an attitude in response. When you have people like Bethany Storro concocting lies about Black women, this is what happens.
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This twit should have gone to prison. End of story.
1. The police wasted time, funds and resources looking for an assailant that never existed.
2. When this story first broke people donated money to her. She walked away with $28k of their hard earned money.
I knew something was weird about this story when she said she was able to HEAR what her attacker said. She’s deaf BTW. I don’t buy the mental illness argument either because she paid herself a compliment when she spun this story. I think this narcissistic dope tried to give herself a chemical peel and concocted the bogus attacker to cover her stupidity. To make matters worse, there was a woman who fit the description she gave of her assailant. She stayed in hiding for a couple of weeks IIRC.
This incident could’ve gotten really ugly for a lot of reasons. Some innocent woman could be sitting in jail right now or some racist bozo could have decided to take the law into their own hands. All because some selfish asshole wanted attention and money. I’ll save my sympathy for actual victims thank you.
Pretty? Yeah, I’m not even gonna touch on that one *whistles innocently*.
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@Melissa
Thank you! She needs to be put in prison and better yet, put in a cell with black women who’ve been informed about the story and have been waiting on her to come. That would be funny.
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I heard the initial story that a white woman allegedly had acid thrown in her face but hadn’t heard the follow-up, that the bitch was lying about everything.. Are we surprised? One of white women’s very specific pathologies is to blame black people for their wickedness.How many white women have claimed to be raped by black men or car-jacked by black men or a black person stole their kids. White people have issues and at this particular juncture, I stay far away from them because the last thing u want is to get caught up in there B.S. And white woman are pathologically jealous of black women, I mean it’s obvious , the insane need to compete with us on every level, the insatiable need to ingratiate themselves to us to get in our business.. This bitch needs to get locked up. Will she be billed for all the manpower sent out to look for the alleged perpetrator of this “crime”? Hell no, but black women get billed for it all the time. A Black woman was set on fire at a gas station and the town she resided in sent her a bill for towing expenses.
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i would be suspicious of this too, blacks normally would just punch you in the face, acid it not their MO, now muslims they do throw acid in people’s face that is a fact. I hate false flag propaganda and that is what she did.
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