The following is based mainly on Nelson George’s “The Death of Rhythm & Blues” (1988):
In the late 1970s disco was driving out soul music on black radio stations across America. Empty dance music about sex and good times was pushing aside funk and driving out soul music that took life more seriously. Black radio was now “urban” radio. Cameo was “too black” but the Bee Gees were not “too white”!
As Nelson George put it, black music became beige. What was going on?
Black music had been built by a black music industry: not just black record companies, like Motown, but black radio stations, black music shops, black concert promoters, black concert halls, all of it. But by the late 1970s much of it was going broke.
After the success of black music in the 1960s and early 1970s the big white-owned record companies bought up much of the top talent by offering more money. The Jackson 5, for example, got 2.7% on record sales from Motown – while white-owned Epic was offering them 28%! You read that right.
But it was a deal with the devil: all those sweet deals had to be paid for somehow and that somehow was to cross over to white audiences. It was no longer “black music for black people” but “black music for white people”.
The music was made more acceptable to the tastes and concerns of young, white middle-class Americans – they had the big money. Copying Eurodisco, the white record companies took out much of the funk and soul and made the dance beats simpler. The lyrics avoided anything heavy, like love gone bad, race or politics. Thus disco.
Meanwhile soul acts were disappearing. Why?
Take Tyrone Davis. His soul music sold well among blacks in the late 1960s and early 1970s. But then in 1977 he signed with white-owned Columbia to make more money and have a chance at crossing over to white audiences. He spent years trying to come up with a crossover disco hit. No luck. Meanwhile Columbia had little interest in selling his soul music: Davis appealed to older, working-class blacks, which Columbia did not regard as an important market.
The big white record companies did have some blacks in important decision-making positions, but there were only so many of them and they had to pick their battles.
All this had knock-on effects on black concert halls, like the Apollo in Harlem, black concert promoters, even black music shops. Because the white record companies were used to dealing with white concert halls, white concert promoters and white shops – a different business network.
Bed-Stuy, Brooklyn, for example, had 20 music shops in 1968 selling mostly Black American music. Ten years later there were fewer than 4. White record companies would not give them the credit and deals they gave to white shops. So they went broke one by one. Likewise with the other black-owned bits of the music industry.
– Abagond, 2010.
See also:
Excellent post, Abagond. I’ve long been interested in this kind of stuff, and how changes in popular music reflect socioeconomic trends.
Disco was a largely dumbed-down simplification of funk and soul. Some of the nuances of funk which had been appreciated more by black than white audiences – such as gospel-tinged vocals and elaborate rhythmic interplay – got phased out and simplified to the point where white people could play it too. Until that point, it was difficult for white people to perform funk and soul because it was just too hard, except for those who had an exceptional feel for black music. But with the disco age, white singers like the Bee Gees and KC (of the Sunshine Band) could be successful because their lack of true singing ability was no longer important.
It’s sad, but the mainstream audience will respond enthusiastically to the constant dumbing down of music. Consider how musically complex the arrangements of soul and funk were in the 60s and early 70s, or for that matter, the big band jazz of earlier eras. Those were considered popular music back then and bought by young fans; yet today the equivalent young audience would not “get” that kind of music, because they have been brought up on a diet of simple and obvious music. Even hip-hop has been musically dumbed down since the golden age of the late 80s/early 90s.
The way to make money in the music biz is clear – give the audience what they want, which is something stupid and vacuous, and you’ll clean up.
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thanks again abagon
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Good post but I’m not sure I agree with all of George’s hypothesis. I hate disco with the burning passion of a thousand supernovas but disco in the US was marketed to blacks first. I don’t think that disco made it big with whites until a few years later.
Most whites were not great practitioners of funk or soul but obviously there were a few who were, who are often unknown by later generations or even contemporary musicians. Some folks were surprised to find out the Muscle Shoals group were white or that Joe South, Duane Allman or Steve Cropper were as well.
I think that over the years young people always like music with a big beat. Sometimes this beat is more musically advanced then others. In the forties this was big band music. In the fifties it was rock and roll. In the sixties it was R&B. In the seventies it was hard rock and disco. In the eighties it was synth-pop and rap-both of which are still dominant today-although country has also been simplified to reach a larger audience.
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I’m sure I mentioned it before but Martha Bayles “Hole in Our Soul” is also worthwhile reading on this subject.
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So, then, ‘Whites’, are always about ‘outsmarting’ Black American interest? In everything. And with music being a ‘strongpoint’ in the Black American communities, even this too is co-opted’ by whites for their financial and consumption pleasure. They just basically, stand back, determine how they will ‘steal and consficate’ your stuff, and then do it. Do it proudly and smirk.
(mini rant) Everything I read on this site, in books, magazines, on other media vehicles points to this. Yesterday in my media literacy class, the instructor, made a point about prevailing stereotypes in television and film, ie ‘subservient and under-confident Asian females’, the sassy and spicy Latina, gangster/thug black male and, the white male as savior and hero, ala, ‘Indiana Jones’, Superman, Batman, Sylvester Stallone, Bruce Willis Van Damme etc.
The Asian, and Black students insisted that the media images of their respective portrayals were largely false; one white male, however ‘jokingly’ declared that the one for white males was 100% true. Whites ‘got it going on’, or what?
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Not only was disco marketed to blacks first, but black people held on to disco a few years after whites had abandoned it. And then the spirit of disco continued into Boogie music and then into House music, which was a black Midwest thing first, as well.
To me, the questionable rhetoric that Hip-Hop was in reaction to disco and represented a rejection of Disco has swayed alot of the thinking about what disco was, what it represented, and what its value was.
Alot of black folks who were teenagers and young adults between the mid-70’s and the early 80’s still have very, very fond memories of disco music.
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R & B was Black music that was not Gospel or Jazz (Big Bands Included), It was not strictly Blues, but the popular music of the 40’s and 50’s. Black folk also produced Rock and Roll, but very few of the artist music was considered Rock and Roll and by the 60’s the music industry named all Black popular music, R & B and white music, even if the same. as Rock; AKA Jerry Lee Lewis and Little Richard. Someone like Micheal Jackson, because he had so much crossover appeal had to be classified as Pop. R & B had pretty much disappeared from a musical point of view by the seventies, but survived as a genre, because of the music industry. Some want to say Rock and Roll was very different than R & B, because it had incorporated Country music, but Country Music had many years earlier, incorporated Blues changes from Black music. Roll and Roll was never close to Blue Grass and authentic folk music of the Scotch Irish. The music industry has long manipulated Black music, not just starting in the 70’s. There are white people my age today who think of Jazz as being only Glen Miller and Benny Goodman. Black music has not been able to claim itself or freely advance without interference.
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My main problem is whites won’t give credit, when credit is due. Music is unversial, so do have a problem with non-blacks in the “black” music. When you take someone’s else style and pass it off as your creation it’s wrong. I don’t know. Hip-Hop is okay sometimes and R&B music sounds god awful to me. I love rock music and always thought R&B sounds dull. To me, it’s just singing about love for something with slow boring beats added on. Marilyn Manson, Guns n Roses, Sex Pistols, and All-American tops any crappy baby mama love drama bs that R&B music produces .
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Very good post and observations, Abagond.
I think apart from a few “poster figures”, the (commercial) music industry got stuck in the dark ages of segregation. Bizarre really, considering that anything artistic should be above this racist stuff.
Talking about Disco music, the initial inspiration came from “Afrobeat” with Manu Dibango’s pivotal track Soul Makossa from 1972. Most people forgot or don’t even realise it.
Btw Hip-hop was initially an expression of the underprivileged with no implicit racial connotation, not to mention commercial intentions. Inspirations were as complex as they were diverse. One of the godfathers, Afrika Bambaataa stated that his musical inspirations were mainly soul music, British synth pop and Kraftwerk, a German electronic band.
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This is great post. I never knew about this angle of the soul music industry.
I’d be curious what you guys think about all this in regards to the more resent “neosoul” resurrection.
Unfortunately, it seems that everything is still just as true today. Most black music now is made for mainstream consumption and is about partying, “swagga”, making money and living it up. You go to the clubs and it’s mostly non-blacks listening to this stuff. Blacks like it too, but the appeal is mainstream, rather than targeting to black audiences. I know this one brotha who is a club promoter in Hollywood. He said that a lot of these clubs are owned by whites, they play nothing but the hiphop club hits, yet they don’t want blacks there, or at least not enough blacks for the place to get a reputation as “a black club.” A few are okay just for image I guess, but get too many and now you’ve got a black club and they don’t want that.
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@ Usagi:
I don’t blame you for finding R&B dull today. It is laughable that today’s R&B could share the name with the R&B of the 50s, 60s or 70s, which was to my mind the highpoint of modern popular music.
Compare James Brown, Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder – or even lesser-known guys like Gil Scott-Heron and Donny Hathaway – with today’s stars, and it’s a bit of a joke. Usher, R Kelly, Chris Brown? They’re okay… but rarely more than just okay.
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@ tulio:
the fact that an artist like Amy Winehouse can become a huge star by performing what is essentially late-60s soul shows that there is still a hankering for the classic soul sound.
However, it is notable that much of this kind of music is being performed by white people now (Winehouse, Robin Thicke, Joss Stone, Daniel Merriweather, Duffy). The music industry loves to promote young white women who sound like old black women. But they are less keen to promote actual black women (like Sharon Jones and the Dap Kings, for example).
Other “neo-soul” artists such as D’Angelo, Erykah Badu and Maxwell had some success in the US and UK where there is still an audience which has a connection to the old-time values of soul. However, in the rest of the world, mainstream radio would just never play that stuff. Those aforementioned artists had albums go straight to number 1 in the US, but where I live in Australia, radio would never, ever play any of their songs.
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Is that so?
Is there something wrong with Australia ?
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There are some pretty good white artists out there doing a good job of resurrecting black soul. There’s is this local artist here in L.A., Mayer Hawthorne, his album if released in 1965 would fit right in. There was also this white guy from Canada named Remy Shand that dropped one album on Motown maybe a decade ago then vanished. It was one of the best soul albums I’ve heard released since the golden era, from beginning to end. Everybody was all over that album, then he was never heard from again. Just completely left the scene. I’m also listening to this Dutch group called Quadron which is incredible, and there’s a newer soul group called Fat Freddy’s Drop from New Zealand.
Personally I don’t have any problem with whites taking on this black music. As long as SOMEBODY is keeping it alive, who cares.
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Actually Quadron is from Denmark, keep confusing Danish with Dutch.
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In retrospect I have to admit that despite much of the blandness that is getting promoted since the 2000s, even in the seventies I was happy that there were innovators like Parliament/Funkadelic, Sly and the Family Stone, EWF, Tower of Power etc to keep things funky.
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I don’t think any white rock star at least after the sixties has never denied nor down played the importance of black music to theirs. Eric Burdon from the Animals, John Lennon from the Beatles, Jeff Beck and many others stated very clearly in the very beginning of their careers as to where their musical roots were and who they considered to be their idols.
Elvis was okay, but they really loved Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Bo Diddley and those black guys. They loved Howlin Wolf, Muddy Waters and others. Eric Clapton was a blues freak from the very beginning on. Keith Richards from Rolling Stones always insisted that it was those black musicians who they looked up. They all knew where the music came from and gave credit for it too.
Maybe this has changed. Friend of mine who was a founding member of one of the most popular local radio stations in Finland told me that one of the biggest problems in their station was to find people with knowledge of music. Young kids who wanted to work at the station did not know blues, rhythm and blues, rock, soul, funk nor any of those. They were asked who is BB King and they did not know. Of all the black artists they maybe knew Beyonce but not Aretha Franklin, not to mention Billie Holiday, Mahalia Jackson or those ladies. Kids just knew the hits from the lists without any idea of the music nor its roots.
I don’t know how it is in other countries but at least here in Finland, many of those who listen the R&B of today think it just as dance music and nothing else. They don’t know its black roots. It is just music on the charts. That is why somebody like Lady Gaga is taken seriously by the industry at least. She is doing what Grace Jackson was doing 25 years ago and kids are going ape shit for it without knowing it is just a rip off.
The rockers on the other hand usually know the story: black music->blues->white immigrant music->country+blues->rock’n’roll->rock in all its forms.
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If those “innovators” could have been reverse-enginered, it would have been done already.
This is what Abagond’s post about, an entire industry being reverse-enginered, stripped down to its basic elements then thrown away.
My wild uneducated guess would be that the exuberance of the Parliament/Funkadelic experiment was a reaction against this phenomenon, an attempt in creating something that could not be copied without being severely watered down.
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Eh, I can’t handle music from before 1990 or so.
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sam,
It was not necessarily the performers, but the industry. The strict categorization of Black music in the industry rag; top forty and list of sales. That even determined what radio stations played and what records store sold. Also TV had a lot to do with it. Shows like Bandstand, that catered to white audiences.
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@ JGreyden:
Is there something wrong with Australia ?
Being a predominantly white country, we are mostly into rock and commercial pop. We do not have a significant black American or black British population that would have the connection to real soul music. There is a significant market for hip-hop and contemporary R&B, particularly with young people of South Asian, Pacific Islander or African roots. But these audiences typically are only interested in the new commercial stuff and don’t know anything of the roots.
Interestingly, the people who are really keen on old skool “real” funk and hip-hop in Australia tend to be white.
There are plenty of clubs that play new R&B in which the clientele is predominantly black and brown. By contrast, I’ve been to see artists like Mayer Hawthorne, Sharon Jones, and underground rappers like Aceyalone, and the crowd is predominantly white.
There are people who dig old soul in Australia; they are mostly older people who remember when it was new, and who are usually rock fans as well. They generally would not be aware of any neo-soul stuff, and probably wouldn’t think it was any good compared to the old stuff.
My hometown, Melbourne, actually has one of the world’s premier deep funk outifts, The Bamboos. Except radio doesn’t play them, and they are better known in Japan and England than in their own city. Likewise, Melbourne blue-eyed soul singer Daniel Merriweather had a number 1 album in the UK, but hasn’t had anything approaching a hit in his home country.
I personally know only a couple of people who really listen to old funk and soul. Most other people think my tastes are a little strange.
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@ tulio:
Fat Freddy’s Drop are actually more of a dub/reggae group than soul. But anyway, New Zealand is very different to Australia in musical taste – they are massively into black music. I think it’s because singing is a huge part of Polynesian culture and the Maoris made a real connection with gospel and its derivations. Maoris undoubtedly can relate to black Americans as a brown minority in a white-dominated county. Check out a couple of NZ soul songs – “Fade Away” by Che Fu and “Rise Up” by Opensouls.
Btw, I really dig Mayer Hawthorne. He can’t really sing (which is unfortunate for a soul singer), but his music is really fantastic.
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I miss bands in the spirit of Heatwave. They now seem like they were decades ahead. Perhaps not musically but definitely sociopolitically.
There are quite a few sinister examples where “racial” segregationists use the heads of artists as a playground. Only a few prolific ones had a bit of media coverage. The R&B group Eternal were originally four women, three black and one white. Their debut album blew up in the UK and European continent as one of the biggest sellers of 1993. US record executives heard of them and got $ signs in their eyes. They wanted to release Eternal’s second album in the USA. Under one condition though – Louise, the white girl must go. Btw there was nothing wrong with her singing. Her voice fitted in perfectly. I saw them live once when they were still four. The management finally caved in and had Louise sign a solo Pop deal which had some respectable success, much less than Eternal though. Back then the story was sold to the public as “rumours”, officially denied. I know as a fact that it was true. One of my cousins is a freelance journalist working all over Europe, mainly in entertainment. They often know more than they (can) publish…
Another example is Craig David who was pressured to drop his white guitarist when they started to promote him in the US. Craig David gave an interview on French TV back then where he told the full story. The hypocritical part is that the initial pressure was coming mainly from white American executives who sent black ‘messengers’ to the forefront in dealing with the media. Along the lines of “black people only want to see black musicians in black music, say black music executives”. The truth is that he had to dump his white guitarist not because Urban music is aimed at a black audience but also because the white audience – who still represent the biggest customer potential – would not accept that a group sold as “black music” has white members. In essence though, it seems like everybody – no matter what ethnic background – all tacitly agree on that issue. Craig David never caved in which meant the end of his major promotion in the USA.
The ironic part is that Craig David’s mother is white British…
The major music industry is a grotesquely sneaky business driven by internal dynamics that most consumers will never hear of. It has nothing to do with art or “preserving cultural heritage”. The only “culture” that counts is money. Money that can only be made if consumers like what they see (or let’s say what they’re supposed to see by questionable standards), not necessarily what they hear.
Here’s the original article from 2002
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/2480365.stm
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Femi,
In the olden days Black folk in the US listened to Elvis Presley and bought his records until he made a racist statement. There was in fact a lot of white backup bands for Black artist in the early days of recording R & B.
During the late sixties, there were some intellectual purist waxed about whether white people could play Jazz, but I never heard any grumblings about other music.
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Hathor,
Exactly. There is enough proof – ironically several decades old for the most part – that integrated groups can work from a consumer’s perspective. But that’s not the real issue.
It really is about internal dynamics. The music industry lives off of stereotypes. It’s supposed to be self-explanatory. It’s the easy way out without too much fuss, investment for special marketing and public “explaining”. Most major bands of today are not grown naturally and built up according to their common goal, irrespective of their background. They are manufactured according to demographics. Then as a lucrative byproduct, you can cross-market certain genres by selling them with a bit of “exoticism” for the other demographic group. And then one day, they’ll get all thrown together in the “easy listening and muzak” shelf. There are a few exceptions in each genre, as I mentioned “the poster figures”, who basically fulfill an alibi function – “look, we record labels are not reactionary segregationists.”
There is a lot of politics going on in the offices of major labels and it does not feel organic. Even less so, artistic.
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Actually the part about Elvis making a racist statement was an urban myth. I have no idea what he himself privately thought of black people but publicly he gave credit to black performers and musicians.
Clapton on the other hand did make racist statements and yet gave even more credit to black performers and musicians.
As far as when exclusions got started I think these things go in cycles. Lester Bangs wrote that when he put on old Otis Redding records at seventies hipster parties, people would snarl that they didn’t want to hear that “n***** disco sh**”. The NY music and media scene was very racist.
The white rockers who were directly influenced by black rockers or blues artists tend to be more frank about giving credit but the ones who came along afterwards tend to be dismissive of black influence or ability. I remember reading Zakk Wylde claiming BB King was highly overrated or Steve Vai saying he didn’t really pay attention to blues until SRV came along.
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Shady-Grady,
What make you think Elvis’ statement was an urban myth.
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There is no proof that Elvis made the statement to which we are referring. Sepia magazine printed a “rumor” that Elvis had said during a Boston concert that “The only things Negroes can do for me is shine my shoes and buy my records”.
The only problem was Sepia magazine had no proof of that. Elvis never said that. At the time Elvis had never been to Boston. Others said they heard it on Murrow’s CBS show. But Elvis hadn’t been on that show either.
But Elvis himself said “A lot of people seem to think I started this business. But rock n roll was here a long time before I came along. Nobody can sing that kind of music like colored people. Let’s face it. I can’t sing like Fats Domino can: I know that”. Presley said this in a 1957 Jet interview.
There’s no evidence of Elvis committing or endorsing racist behavior. I’m not going to say he loved black people either-we just don’t have any public hateful statements as we do on several other musicians before or after him.
The alleged statement fitted with some people’s misconceptions of Elvis as a person because of their understandable dismay and anger that Elvis was presented as the King of Rock and Roll and even today is largely regarded as such by many whites.
There’s a difference between protesting and resenting the system which saw Elvis represented as the King of Rock and Roll and earn millions and between resenting Elvis himself. That same system saw SRV be considered the King of Blues guitar or several other whites get money and fame in formerly ‘black’ cultural arenas. It’s ongoing.
I doubt BB King would have stood up for Elvis back in the fifties if he had honestly thought the man was a bigot.
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Shady Grady,
Be that as it may, Black folk were completely turned off. I personally heard the comments and knew how the Black Radio stations reacted.
From what I remember, there wasn’t any mention of Boston; I think it was closer to home, Memphis.
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Hathor, with all due respect you did NOT personally hear Elvis say that. He didn’t say it.
http://www.snopes.com/music/artists/presley1.asp
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Elvis_Presley#Misattributed
http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/question/mar06/
It is an urban myth. People believe what they want to believe-just like the Tommy Hilfiger myth. People reacted to the myth but that is because it fit in with people’s jealousies, paranoia and resentments-some of which was justified, some of which was not.
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Shady Grady,
You are not personally reading what I said. The “comments” referred to Black folk in the preceding sentence, I did not mention Elvis’ statement.
And regardless whether Elvis gave credit to Black musicians, does not give any cause to believe he didn’t make that statement. There was nothing in his character for Black folk to believe otherwise. Especially those who lived in the south at the time. The system of manners facilitated the day to day interactions between white and Black people, but Black people never had any expectations that the civility could not turn virulent if something pique that white person’ s sense of your place.
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Shady Grady,
My original intention really had nothing to do with Elvis, but to demonstrate Black peoples acceptance of white artist.
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Well Hathor that is a different and rather flexible standard indeed to state that there is “no cause to believe that he didn’t make that statement”.
One can’t prove a negative. If people want to believe something that is demonstrably untrue they can have at it.
As far as there “being nothing in his character for black folk to believe otherwise”, sorry that’s just not the case. The black people at the time who knew and interacted with Elvis, as I am assuming you did not, had nothing to say about any alleged Elvis racist feelings. In fact they said much the opposite. This included men like BB King, Rufus Thomas, Ike Turner, Fats Domino, Bobby Bland, Junior Parker as well as people like the desegregationist Rev W. Herbert Brewster. They gave friendship or respect to Elvis that simply wasn’t given to (or sought by) other white early rock-n-rollers.
This is separate from criticism of a marketing and media process that allows white artists to capitalize on black styles and make far more $$$/fame than black artists. Some of the people I listed were and/or are quite bitter about that occurrence just as Buddy Guy called SRV and Clapton friends but is still quite indignant about how the white audience will accept white guitarists playing blues but not so much black guitarists. Even today white media ignores black up and comers like the Carolina Chocolate Drops or John Bigham or several others in favor of Derek Trucks or Joe Bonamassa.
There are plenty of white musicians, American or otherwise, who have made racist statements over the years. Nugent for example, won’t stop. Elvis wasn’t one of them, that’s all.
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Shady Grady,
Did you live under Jim Crow in the south during the 50’s? Perhaps I should also ask if your are Black person? You don’t seem to understand the customs or pathologies present at that time. It wouldn’t matter how close Elvis would have been to Black folk. There was always a moment when a white person no matter, if he played with Black children, raise by a Black woman or surrounded by Black folks growing up, that he would assume his place in a white supremacist society.
Let me say again their was nothing in his character or actions that gave Black folk any indication that the statement wold not be true.
I can’t find that quote, but I think it was Ralph Ellison that described the paradox of the white person betraying the Black woman that raise them from birth and in some instance even suckled them.
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Hathor, it is patently illogical and a pretty poor debating tool to immediately assume that because someone points out that an urban myth is in fact an urban myth or happens to disagree with you on a particular esoteric point of musical history that they are not black.
For what it’s worth I am indeed Black. And rather than make assertions about what I don’t seem to understand perhaps you care to explain why the black musicians who interacted with Elvis at the time, did not say he was a bigot. Or maybe you will say that they weren’t black either.. LOL
Again, unless you care to share otherwise my ASSUMPTION is that BB King, Rufus Thomas and others knew Elvis personally and you did not. Therefore anything you may have to say about Elvis on this issue, absent any provable citations, has to be weighed against what Black musicians who knew Elvis and worked with him had to say. There were some Black musicians who were quite rightly upset and bitter that they did not get the (white) mainstream accolades and money that Elvis received. But even these people did not say that Elvis was a racist. Isaac Hayes had positive things to say about the man.
And as far as this
“Let me say again their was nothing in his character or actions that gave Black folk any indication that the statement wold not be true”
If your mind is made up on the matter so be it. But it is a fact that Elvis attended the WDIA revue and also broke segregation laws by attending the Memphis fairgrounds amusement park during “colored night”. Being photographed with Junior Parker and Bobby Bland at a time when people were screaming about racial separation and rock-n-roll as “n**** music” was indeed an indication to both blacks and whites that whatever Elvis was he was not a staunch supporter of segregation and hate. There was a lot in his character and actions that would have given blacks reason to think the rumor was false. That is why when the rumor got started Elvis went to Jet to strongly deny it. If he had felt that way he not only would not have denied it he would have gloried in it. The times were such that he could have easily gotten away with such statements professionally and financially. The black reporters and editors at Jet researched this and could not find proof. Elvis himself said
“I never said anything like that, and people who know me know I wouldn’t have said it”.
There is plenty of room for criticism of Elvis, both musical and personal as well as criticism of the system that saw his rise and the shunting aside of equal or superior talent among black musicians and performers. But facts are facts. Elvis always gave credit where credit was due and did not make any public racist statements or statements in support of segregation.
The ironic thing is that I am not personally a fan of Elvis. I much prefer Chuck, Ike and Bo. But I don’t like it when myths get repeated as fact. No Elvis didn’t lead Freedom Rides, register black voters, personally end segregation, singlehandedly face down White Citizens Councils or anything like that. But neither did he make the racist statement attributed to him. Anyone who believes otherwise is wrong. It really is that simple.
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Excellent post, Grady.
I guess it’s a measure of progress, of sorts, that someone like Elvis cahn get slammed as a racist today. It’s “progress” because most of the people doing the slamming haven’t a clue as to how the racists of Elvis’ time really acted. That they can conceive of him as the same sort of white guy as, say, Bull Conner means that they have no real life experience of dealing with that earlier and much more virulent and deadly form of racism.
Today we get upset – and rightly so – when Dr. Laura pulls a tourettes on the radio. The thing is, 60 years ago in Mississippi, that kind of behavior would have been as normal as normal can be.
Elvis – for all his faults – was never that kind of “normal”.
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I don’t get why you guys purposefully misunderstand Hathor.
I’m quite happy to learn that the rumour about Elvis was just that, a rumour.
But that’s really not the point.
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I second what JGreyden says, and Hathor has gone into detail plenty of times about her experiences growing up in the Jim Crow South (though that’s really no one’s business anyway). Whether Elvis was “racist” or not is beside the point, because we live in a racist society–people know “their place” (based on race) today, and they certainly knew it then. That’s where the power behind terms like “race traitor” and “n*gger-lover” come from: they’re supposed to symbolize a White person completely “crossing over” and thereby inviting the same negative treatment Blacks receive.
Shady Grady is talking about a “racist”–an individual. Hathor is talking about “racism”–a societal problem. *Personally, I think the latter is more important.
*Obviously, that doesn’t imply that discussion of the former is worthless, but neither conclusion (“Yes, Elvis was racist”; “No, Elvis wasn’t racist” mitigates societal racism.
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So where’s your place, Jasmin? I mean seeing as how you claim to know it and such…
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Shady Grady and Thaddeus,
I am not impressed.
Men always fall upon the argument of failed logic of women when they either don’t understand the point or to prove they are right.
Thaddeus,
You need to STFU, because you do not have my experience.
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Thad,
I think Hathor said it best–I’m sure Google can help you if you are confused. You certainly seem to know your place as the arrogant White professor educating ‘dem po’ Negroes. You relish in it even. Just sayin’.
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Well, hell, I thought we all knew our places, Jasmin so why use google?
Actually, I find my roll to be the skeptic tweaking other peoples’ dogmas.
Just sayin’.
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Hathor,
Er… Where did I refer to “the failed logic of women”, exactly? As a matter of fact, I wasn’t even speaking of or to you: I was refering to the dozens of times I’ve heard “Elvis was a racist” coming from some young kid.
Apparently, I’ve been dragged into some prior argument you’ve been having with Grady. My comment was only and solely in response to his prior statement above – and then in response only to what he said re: Elvis.
I haven’t even read what you wrote above, but will do so now.
As for telling people “you should STFU because you don’t have my experience”, that logic serves for anyone, anywhere, all the time. We all have different experiences and if we’re all going to shut up because none of our experiences are the same as any other persons, then there’d be nobody talking at all.
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[Having read Hathor’s tiff with Shady…]
AFAICS, Shady’s correct on this point: Elvis never said the racist statement attributed to him. Furthermore, he went out of his way to clarify the rumor that he masde those statements and he sought out the black press to do so.
Yes, society was racist back then, and it continues to be so today. No, Elvis doesn’t seem to have been your typical southern racist. He apparently cared what black people thought about him and his positions and he apparently cared little what white racists thought. He would have acted in a completely different way if he cared otherwise.
Does this make Elvis the Mother Teresa of American race? Certainly not. But it is a far cry from the “Elvis was a racist bigot” rhetoric we hear these days from alot of people.
With regards to your experiences, AFAICS, no one is down-playing them. Shady seems to have misunderstood what you said when you said “I heard the comments”. He thought you were referring to Elvis when you were referring to what the black people around you at the time. Who made “the comments” isn’t quite clear from your post.
As for this whole thing about “the failed logic of women”… I can’t quite see where that’s coming from as, again AFAICS, no one here has brought up your gender.
I DO find it interesting and telling, however, that for someone who’s so quick to tell other people to shut the f*** up because “they don’t understand what I went through”, you don’t seem to give Grady any credit. Right off the bat, you presume that he “doesn’t understand the times” and wonder whether he could possibly be black because you believe that he doesn’t share your opinion.
That’s odd in and of itself, because again, Grady isn’t contesting what you say the black people around you FELT about Elvis: he’s contesting the fact that Elvis supposedly made certain statements that have been pretty much universally attributed to him over the years by black people.
So why you take Grady’s comment on that to be an attack on your subjective experiences – let alone your views as a woman – is kind of beyond me.
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Thad,
What you and Shady Grady didn’t understand is that the comment that Elvis allegedly made was irrelevant at the time it happen. Both of you did not get it when I was speaking of what expectations Blacks had of whites. I did not say anything was true, I said it was believable, because Blacks had seen white people turn on a dime in their attitudes. This is why I questioned Shady Grady’s experience. I would not have had to explain it to another 65 year old Black person who lived in the south during Jim Crow. They would have understood the culture, I am sure B.B. King would have understood me. All I kept getting was a defense of Elvis’ which again was totally irrelevant.
Shady Grady said outright that I was illogical and the comment was addressed to both of you, since you seem to be co-signing what he had said.
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OK, so let me get this straight: whether or not someone actually made a racist comment is completely irrelevant?
Hathor, I think we are arguing past each other here. Grady can speak for himself, but I’m certainly not arguing whether or not the rumor that Elvis made racist statements was believeable or not at the time.
I’m simply saying it’s not true that he made them. And that’s all I see Grady arguing as well.
Furthermore, what Grady said regarding your “illogic” was, and I quote…
…it is patently illogical and a pretty poor debating tool to immediately assume that because someone points out that an urban myth is in fact an urban myth or happens to disagree with you on a particular esoteric point of musical history that they are not black.
He is right on that point.
Why?
Because he never argued that black people didn’t believe this rumor. You have him arguing something he didn’t even touch upon and then implying that he’s not black because he supposedly took a position on this issue he didn’t even touch upon which was different that yours. To top it all off, you imply that his position is some sort of sexist plot against you.
THAT is indeed illogical, Hathor. Illogical or arguing in extremely bad faith.
Recapping the argument…
Hathor sez: “Elvis said that the only thing black people were good for is to shine his shoes.”
Grady says “Elvis never said that. Here’s proof”.
Hathor says “You’re wrong. Black people believed those statements.”
Grady says “Nevertheless, Elvis never made them or anything like them.”
Hathor sez: “Only someone who isn’t black would think that black people wouldn’t believe those statements”.
Grady sez: “That position is illogical”
Hathor sez: “You only think I’m illogical because I’m a woman.”
I mean, talk about derailing!
What was originally a quite clear correction of a mistatement you made has now become an attack on you as a black woman and an AGING black woman to boot!
Holy triple identity card play, Batman!
I wish that I could wave away inconvenient facts by pointing to my genitalia, epidermis, or chronological age! It would make being an intellectual so much easier.
And then to top it all off and say “It’s irrelevant whether or not Elvis actually said what he said. Hell, let’s just make up facts as we see fit because they are ‘poetically’ correct, even if they never happened.”
Post-modernism, I guess.
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“I am sure BB King would have understood me”
Probably not, Hathor…
“I remember Elvis as a young man hanging around the Sun studios. Even then I knew this lid had a tremendous talent. He was a dynamic young boy. His phraseology, his way of looking at a song was as unique as Sinatra’s. I was a tremendous fan and had Elvis lived there would have been no end to his inventiveness”-BB King
“Elvis, he was unique. And he loved the blues, it was a pity he didn’t do more.” BB King
“I knew Elvis before he was popular. He used to come around and be around us a lot. I can remember once or twice when we met down at Club Handy on Beale Street. Elvis at heart was very religious and I think that throughout his career he couldn’t help but let it come out & you can hear it.” – B.B King.”
EIN – Some people like to make out that Elvis was racist in some ways. Is the story true that on a Texan Tour the promoters didn’t want Elvis working with black backing singers and Elvis made the stand saying, “No Sweets, No Elvis”?
Myrna Smith -“That’s what we heard. And the promoter’s daughter was made to drive us in an open convertible to the stage! So that promoter never defied Elvis again! In fact I don’t think that we never worked with him again anyway. I know that no matter what colour I was Elvis would have loved me the same. As far as he treated me, there was not racial bone in his body. I mean in the early days he even sneaked into those black gospel churches in Memphis which would have taken a lot of nerve. White boys just wouldn’t go there, it was a brave thing to do but he was just determined.”
He was a mild tempered, quiet, nice guy. He treated everyone the same. There have been rumors about him, saying that he said ‘The only thing blacks can do for me is shine my shoes’. Now, I don’t believe that. I never saw him act in anyway like that’. ‘I overheard one of Elvis’ friends at the time ask Elvis ‘Why do you call him ‘mister’ — he’s just a barbecue guy?’ Elvis looked at him and said ‘He’s a man’. ‘ ‘That’, Withers says, ‘Was the humility in his temperament’. – Ernest Withers
‘Elvis was a great man and did more for civil rights than people know. To call him a racist is an insult to us all’.
-Ernest Withers
All, there are TONS of quotes like that out there from black people who grew under segregation and near complete white supremacy. They had no reason to like white people. And yet they seemingly liked Elvis and defended him from false accusations. Maybe if it were just one or two of Elvis’ black employees saying such things one could dismiss them as buck dancing coons.. But black people over the years who knew Elvis and/or worked with Elvis said he was alright. Case closed.
Hathor I really don’t get why you automatically assume that a person who disagrees with you must not be black. The people I’ve listed above are/were black. They worked with Elvis and knew Elvis. You did not. My goodness!!!
And then you try to make this into a gender thing. Did I mention your gender, age or race? Did I initially mention my own? No I did not. Bad logic is bad logic no matter what your immutable traits might be. Those things are quite irrelevant-ESPECIALLY over the internet..
I have not denied nor downplayed the larger racism rampant in the music industry (and the purchasing public) then or now. In my posts I’ve mentioned that constantly. I don’t know what else I can say on that. People like Little Richard and Chuck Berry who were and are VERY bitter about their lack of money or fame or ability to reach the white audience or seeing their moves or music “borrowed” by imitators (including Elvis according to some) still make a distinction between criticizing that larger issue and criticizing Elvis as a person. There are plenty of white musicians who are quite individually racist imo and they have careers today. Nugent and Wylde come to mind immediately..
If you want to criticize Elvis as a flash in the pan star who squandered his talent, never challenged himself after his initial success and lives on unfairly in history as the “King” of rock-n-roll -ok.
If you think that he should have spoken out more directly on the civil rights movement-ok.
If you want to question the timing and appropriateness of his relationship with Prisicilla-ok.
But to give credence to an untrue rumor and then argue that well it makes no difference if it were true or not because most whites of the time would have said something similar and anyone who disagrees with you doesn’t understand the times, isn’t black or is likely sexist, sorry that’s ridiculous. Facts always matter.
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Thaddeus,
You entirely misquoted me and the intent of my argument.
Shady Grady,
Your argument and logic sounds so much like the white trolls, not your defense of Elvis that made me wonder if you were black.
Change the subject slightly and make it sound as if you are the misunderstood person, I have seen this so often.
One thing, whatever each of you think of me, I know a duck when I see one.
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It seems to me that neither Thad nor Shady Grady are trying to understand Hathor’s point, or if they are trying, they do not appear to be succeeding.
As I understand it she is saying that Elvis, as a white man from Jim Crow Mississippi, was a presumed racist in the eyes of ordinary black people of the same time and place and that nothing in his public words or actions caused them to think otherwise. So when rumours of his shoeshine quote spread, they stuck. And she is saying this from personal experience of that time and place.
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I thought Shady Grady was white too from his style of argument – not from the mere fact of disagreeing with Hathor. I am sure Hathor is quite used to black people disagreeing with her and does not assume they all think alike.
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Shady Grady said:
“I’m sure I mentioned it before but Martha Bayles “Hole in Our Soul” is also worthwhile reading on this subject.”
Thanks for the book recommendation. I requested it from my library.
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Hathor said:
“The music industry has long manipulated Black music, not just starting in the 70′s. There are white people my age today who think of Jazz as being only Glen Miller and Benny Goodman. Black music has not been able to claim itself or freely advance without interference.”
Right: 1975 to 1979 is just a five-year window onto something that has been going on in different forms for at least the past 80 years.
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The trope of “current black music sucks but the old stuff is priceless” has been going on since at least the 1920s. It is called dorf:
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Madonn!
If I repeated something that was proven to be untrue and someone pointed it out that it was untrue that would be the end of that particular line of discussion. I would have no problem admitting that I was wrong or mistaken. It’s no biggie. We can all make mistakes or get incorrect info. I wouldn’t take it personally or immediately start attacking the other person’s age, gender or understanding. I also wouldn’t get defensive and retreat to a fallback position that it didn’t really matter if something were untrue or not.
Truth always matters. Always.
I think we’re all in a bad position if logic or a determination to stay on topic is considered a “white style” of argument. It’s not. Would a person be sexist if he said that an inability to stay on target and immediately resort to ad hominem arguments is typical of women? I think he would be. If the argument is bad; it’s bad. If it’s valid; it’s valid.
AFAIK Elvis, unlike most other contemporary white stars in the fifties did attend black events, was photographed with black people and occasionally worked with black musicians. Small potatoes now but it was noticed approvingly by the black media at the time which may be what gave some black music consumers “peer permission” to purchase his records or attend concerts where possible. It is possible of course that Elvis was laughing up his sleeve at all of these people and couldn’t stand black folks. My only point is that there is no evidence for that and plenty of evidence to the contrary over two decades. Elvis was not presumed to be a racist by those who knew him from Beale Street. That is why he reacted so strongly to the rumor.
Contrast Elvis’ reaction in 1957 when whites could be much more open and unrepentant about their racism to some of today’s stars like Phil Anselmo, Zakk Wylde, Ted Nugent etc who have all been proven to have said much more negative things about black people and are completely comfortable with their bigotry. They really don’t care what black people think of them or if black people buy their releases or attend their concerts. From what’s he said Anselmo would probably prefer that we didn’t. Even though he had greater commercial success than all of the people mentioned combined, Elvis seemingly did care what black people thought.
I don’t and won’t deny that racism exists and is rampant within the music industry and larger society. But Elvis is the wrong target. There’s a difference between Elvis Presley and Johnny Rebel.
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I hope you like the Bayles book Abagond. I’m not sure I agree with all of her conclusions but she is quite enlightening on a lot of the racism in sixties and seventies rock and how it took on different forms. She also doesn’t have very much nice to say (for both musical and non-musical reasons) about hardcore rappers, heavy metal in all of its forms or most art rock/soulless R&B.
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Shady Grady
Most Black people didn’t hang out on Beale Street, nor was there 24/7 gossip and celebrity tracking as it is today. There was not end to the conversation, because you were not responding to my comment. You were trying to change the past. The truth has nothing to do with the impressions that Black people had.
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” The trope of “current black music sucks but the old stuff is priceless” has been going on since at least the 1920s. It is called dorf ”
I feel this way. I don’t know. I never found soul music to all that interesting to me. The beats are too sound and boring. Now, most music is all about how much you love some man or something like that. Why is there only 3 genres of music that show blacks playing ? I know that there are Blacks that sing heavy metal, punk and even Enka. Have you ever heard of Jero ? He’s black Enka singer. I can relate and feel more soul from Fall-Out boy, Gackt, Muse, Marilyn Manson, NIN, Sex Pistols, Bjork, Mickeal Jackson, Miyavi, and Atreyu than Monica, Jill Scott, R.Kelly, Solider Boy, Jay-Z, Tupac and BOys-2-Men. Sorry if misspelled some of the artists’ names.
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Shady Grady said:
“I think we’re all in a bad position if logic or a determination to stay on topic is considered a “white style” of argument.”
It is not your logic, it is your seemingly wilful misunderstanding, which has been noted by at least three commenters.
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Doesn’t it concern all genres of music? I’ve never heard of the term ‘dorf’ before. I suppose it’s what we call in French ‘ringard’ (?)
The exact opposite has also always existed, mainly among metropolitan hipsters who dismiss anything older than 3 months as passé.
I suppose the implications which might have been sentimental and sociopolitical until some point in time are yet giving way to true quality considerations. I can see that with my nieces and nephews who are in their teens and twenties right now. They keep raving about how sweet it must have been when me and my siblings were their age. Of course they listen to current stuff but they truly only respect the music of certain genres when they were in their pioneer years (70s and 80s). To the point that I sometimes prefer some current stuff over the old one more than them.
It’s not rare in anything artistic that those who pioneered an original style were ignored in the beginning and “discovered” by the mainstream only much later. The mainstream is slow and lazy. They wait for being spoon fed and the music industry happily satisfies this desire with present cash cows first, and later the innovators who will possibly be the future cash cows. The major music industry has always been lagging several years behind the innovators, most of which you’ll never directly hear of in the mainstream media. You can do the math for the mainstream audience.
At the end of the day it’s all about what makes the most money right now for the industry which is getting harder by the minute anyway. Then perhaps see you again in the “Easy Listening” shelf sooner or later…
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Actually what’s been consistently ignored by commenters is the the fact that black people who knew Elvis as presumably no one here did, did not see him as racist. No one here has MORE of a right to speak authoritatively of what black people at the time knew or believed than BB King or Little Richard or Ernest Withers or any of the other people quoted-who went through the same stuff as every other black person.
“The truth has nothing to do with the impressions that Black people had.”
That indeed is a sad statement.
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Shady Grady,
Do you know how you would have reacted?
I don’t gauge music on the composer or the musician, but some people do. I believe that Wagner’s music wasn’t performed in Israel until a performance by conducted by Leonard Bernstein. It not had been performed because of Wagner’s antisemitism and his music’s relationship to Nazi Germany.
The Israelis may have a stronger case than Black folks at the time, but never the less ones views influences whether you want to boycott an artist or not.
We are not speaking of violating someone civil rights, when we don’t attend a performance, purchase their records or play them on a private radio station.
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@Abagond
As I understand it she is saying that Elvis, as a white man from Jim Crow Mississippi, was a presumed racist in the eyes of ordinary black people of the same time and place and that nothing in his public words or actions caused them to think otherwise. So when rumours of his shoeshine quote spread, they stuck. And she is saying this from personal experience of that time and place.
I GOT that, Abagond.
But unless I’m reading Grady wrong, his argument isn’t “Black people shouldn’t have believed those rumors”.
His argument is – exclusively – those rumors weren’t true.
Neither Grady nor I have said word one about WHY many if not most black people believed the rumors that Elvis was racist.
So who’s having a hard time understanding whom here?
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Abagond, maybe you`d like to explain to us how Grady`s claim that Elvis never made the racist statements attributed to him is somehow a negation of Hathor`s belief that black people at the time were right to believe he made those statements?
Because I`ve reread the whole thread from beginning to end and it seems that you`re taking Grady to task for “misunderstanding” Hathor when he’s not even arguing with her point.
You think this “misreading” by Grady is so damned obvious: explain it, please.
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That is a separate question Hathor and I will do my best to answer it honestly. I used to partially judge music on how I thought the musician behaved or believed.
However this became untenable and eventually impossible as I found out more about musicians in every genre. Whether it was Ike abusing Tina, Jimmy Page sleeping with fourteen year old girls, Queen touring apartheid South Africa, or countless other examples good music was being made by people that were a******s.
While I would not buy a song by a dedicated white power band titled “F*** N****!!!” (see Johnny Rebel or David Allan Coe) the fact remains that there has been nonetheless throughout the ages good art created by people who have bigoted thoughts, or who have been spousal abusers or said racist things or have lent support to causes with which I not only disagree but despise. Fortunately or unfortunately depending on how you look at it, talent and creativity is independent from morals or what sort of person you are.
Robert E. Howard and HP Lovecraft were racists who hated black people. They also wrote some masterpieces of fantasy and horror. Shakespeare’s anti-black feelings are evident in “Othello” and “Titus Andronicus” but “Hamlet” and “Richard III” are some of the greatest plays ever created. Eric Clapton said some very ugly things about black and Arab immigrants to the UK but he also was a stickler for giving black musicians (paid) credit, hired black musicians in his band, promoted older black musicans, and wrote “Layla” and “Sunshine of Your Love” which are two of the greatest rock songs ever written.
So it’s complicated. I don’t judge anyone else’s decisions on matters of taste. Everyone has their own limits and preferences. But to my mind, music (and art in general) stands alone. The fact that Wagner didn’t care for Jews does not change the fact that Parsifal and Der Ring are among the great works of art. We can enjoy the art without endorsing or agreeing with the artist. If there’s a new artist I haven’t heard before and someone tells me that he or she is a bad person in some aspect maybe that will prevent me from purchasing the product. Maybe, maybe not. But if it’s someone I’ve already heard/read/viewed and liked, I’m not going to change my POV about their art. Einstein was allegedly not very nice to his wives. That has nothing to do with his theories of relativity.
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@ Abagond:
I second Shady Grady’s recommendation of “Hole in our Soul”. I disagree with much of it, and in some sections it gets a little boring, but overall it is an excellent book, particularly in the analysis of the role race plays in how audiences respond to various kinds of music.
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@ FG:
“Eh, I can’t handle music from before 1990 or so.”
Everyone’s tastes are their own, but I’m curious to know why.
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I don’t know i enjoyed the late 80’s early 90’s better, aka “NEW JACK SWING”
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This was an interesting post. Surprised I did not find it until now.
Yes, these were my high school years, and I didn’t quite understand at that time what was going on with “white” and “black” music, and how disco evolved and then died. I do remember that just before disco became popular, white and black music started to get repolarized after mandatory desegregation forced whites and blacks to go to school together.
But it makes sense – whites taking over the black focused parts of the music industry, water it down for whites and calling it disco, then force the black-owned bits out of business. Then came the disco backlash and eventual death and replacement by something different.
Well, it also helped to give birth to the Hip Hop genre. But the same thing seemed to happen – bought up by whites and watered down and embraced by the white middle class, but unlike disco, it didn’t just “die off”.
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My mother owned a record store while Soul and R&B were at their height. It was a lot of fun for my siblings and people in the neighborhood.
While the store did well, she closed her record store after a few years to focus on other ventures.
Black-owned record stores in Black neighborhoods not only sold music, they were also spaces where Black people could gather, sing, trade dance moves and the latest community news. All without being shooed off or followed around like shoplifting suspects.
Integration was a grave mistake. Desegregation would have been a better goal. Desegregation would have involved dismantling apartheid laws while keeping Black institutions, schools, businesses and media strong and healthy.
Even Dr. King realized it shortly before he was murdered. Harry Belafonte related what Dr. King said when he realized the error:
https://www.scu.edu/mcae/architects-of-peace/Belafonte/essay.html
Integration has allowed White corporations to strip-mine Black culture, media and businesses like haircare, cosmetics, sports and entertainment. Those were industries Black people built from the ground up from the early 1900s to the 1970s.
Belafonte concluded:
Until Black people step out and step up Black people will be the ones consumed in the “burning house”.
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To Abagond,
for example, had 20 music shops in 1968 selling mostly Black American music. Ten years later there were fewer than 4. White record companies would not give them the credit and deals they gave to white shops.
FWIW, I worked at an independent record store in the mid to late 70s and from my observations back then this problem affected all smaller operators, not just record stores with predominantly Black customers. The 70s was marked by the rise of chain stores in the music industry and a targeted narrowing of musical tastes which severely weakened smaller operators.
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