Kai Chang, who blogs under the name of Zuky, noticed an interesting difference between the stories that people of colour tell about white people and the stories that white people tell about people of colour:
I’ve been telling this quasi-joke for a while, in various forms depending on context but always among people of color (my sisters and brothers!). People invariably laugh and cringe. It’s a simple observation, based on my experiences, about the stories white people tell about people of color and the stories people of color tell about white people, and how neither reflects our respective realities.
When white people tell stories about people of color, it’s almost always about white people reaching out to people of color, seeing firsthand the pain and the obstacles we face in our everyday lives, inevitably much gnashing of teeth, leading eventually to the epiphany that, in the end, despite different backgrounds and surfaces, “people of color are just like us! we all want the same things! we’re all hurt by the same things!”
When people of color tell stories about white people, it’s often a mirror image of that trajectory: it begins with seemingly benign white people either reaching out to us or popping up in our paths, sharing some experiences in the world, inevitably followed at some point by white people’s outlandish statements and behaviors and dicey responses to various life situations, leading eventually to the epiphany that “wow, white people are really nothing like us at all! I have no idea what that person is talking about or doing, it’s freaky! you sure our brains are made of the same stuff?”
So white people like saying “they’re just like us!” and people of color like saying “they’re not like us at all!” (And quite often that’s my honest feeling.) Yet in actuality, if we step back, we know that white people usually do not view people of color as fully human, while people of color usually do confer a common humanity to all people and especially to white folks. Even the most hard-ass reverse racist, even through a red-hot veil of anger, probably still can’t help but see a fragile and fearful humanity within white people.
These are the stories we tell and they tell, my sisters and brothers! People say one thing to cover up another. This is the way of words in an upside-down world.
The paradox is this:
People from another race are just like us – and yet they are not like us at all!
Because no matter which statement you start with you will find yourself saying the other one.
How can that be? I think it is like how some Native American tribes, like the Cree, called themselves The True Human Beings. We laugh at that but deep down we all believe the same thing about our own people. But it is just as laughably untrue because it is just as narrow.
See also:
- Zuky: Our Stories (My Sisters & Brothers!) and Theirs (White People) – the original post. The only change I made was to delete the first paragraph: I needed the space and it did not help to make Zuky’s point (as far as I could tell).
- the single story – also about stories we tell about “others”
- How whites misunderstand blackness
- stereotype
- “You are not like the other blacks” – a post yet to be written
- stereotype
- The oneness of mankind
- The Secret Course on Whiteness – a post I have yet to write, but this phrase is how I sum up the idea that most white people act in certain strange ways that seem to have no roots in the public mainstream culture.
Excellent choice for cross-posting. Insightful, truthful, and highly accurate.
Merci, cheri.
*cue drapto infestation*
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“When people of color tell stories about white people, it’s often a mirror image of that trajectory: it begins with seemingly benign white people either reaching out to us or popping up in our paths, sharing some experiences in the world, inevitably followed at some point by white people’s outlandish statements and behaviors and dicey responses to various life situations, leading eventually to the epiphany that “wow, white people are really nothing like us at all! I have no idea what that person is talking about or doing, it’s freaky! you sure our brains are made of the same stuff?”
These are some pretty vague statements about white people, but I understand because some behavioral characteristics are difficult to articulate in words.
“So white people like saying “they’re just like us!” and people of color like saying “they’re not like us at all!” (And quite often that’s my honest feeling.) Yet in actuality, if we step back, we know that white people usually do not view people of color as fully human, while people of color usually do confer a common humanity to all people and especially to white folks. Even the most hard-ass reverse racist, even through a red-hot veil of anger, probably still can’t help but see a fragile and fearful humanity within white people.”
Sure, some white people certainly view “POC” and especially blacks as being of not quite the same species as themselves. However, I don’t think most whites feel this way. Rather, they’re like “POC” and draw sharp distinctions based on cultural attributes. Whites seem to be especially averse to “ghetto”-type behaviors and speech patterns. On the other hand, white people don’t have much of a problem with blacks and other “POC” who are similar to them in terms of values and behavior, such as Oprah, Tyra, and Obama.
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FG says,
Rather, they’re like “POC” and draw sharp distinctions based on cultural attributes. Whites seem to be especially averse to “ghetto”-type behaviors and speech patterns. On the other hand, white people don’t have much of a problem with blacks and other “POC” who are similar to them in terms of values and behavior, such as Oprah, Tyra, and Obama.
laromana says,
Who made WP the arbiters of “humanity” and who deserves to be treated with respect (how patronizing). Both POC’s with “ghetto” type behavior and POC’s with more conventional values/behaviors are human beings who deserve to be treated with respect by WP (and EVERYONE).
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Whites seem to be especially averse to “ghetto”-type behaviors and speech patterns. On the other hand, white people don’t have much of a problem with blacks and other “POC” who are similar to them in terms of values and behavior, such as Oprah, Tyra, and Obama.
You should not have said Tyra she is too fake to determine what her true behaviors are.
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I agree 100% with Laromana.
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@laromana
“Who made WP the arbiters of “humanity” and who deserves to be treated with respect (how patronizing). Both POC’s with “ghetto” type behavior and POC’s with more conventional values/behaviors are human beings who deserve to be treated with respect by WP (and EVERYONE).”
Three things:
1) My post was not normative. I didn’t say anyone should be respected or disrespected based on their cultural disposition.
2) As Abagond’s post indicated, some “POC” are turned off by white behaviors. Ethnocentrism is reciprocal.
2) I’m not a cultural relativist. I think some cultures are definitely better than others.
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It takes great effort and introspection for a typical white person to see what we have been conditioned to believe. And when some white people do have that epiphany of white privelege, and that there are multiple realities not just the priveleged white version, it is eye opening -it has been for me. Unfortunately the author hasn’t run across many whites who have learned to unlearn years of white social conditioning. Thanks, abagond, for your blog because it has led me to do so, w.i.p.
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How can that be? I think it is like how some Native American tribes, like the Cree, called themselves The True Human Beings. We laugh at that but deep down we all believe the same thing about our own people. But it is just as laughably untrue because it is just as narrow.
Yep.
It’s called “othering” and all human groups engage in it.
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On the other hand, white people don’t have much of a problem with blacks and other “POC” who are similar to them in terms of values and behavior, such as Oprah, Tyra, and Obama.
After what I’ve experienced personally since childhood, I strongly disagree. POC are “Othered” by WP…status, speech patterns, behaviors be damned.
By the way, “Obama” was the absolutely worst example choice for this point, considering the wrathful racist outpour his election has unleashed.
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FG,
“Whites seem to be especially averse to “ghetto”-type behaviors and speech patterns. On the other hand, white people don’t have much of a problem with blacks and other “POC” who are similar to them in terms of values and behavior, such as Oprah, Tyra, and Obama.”
It certainly might make whites more comfortable around a black person if the person in question is similar to them in behavior and values. But it will not make them see the black person as “one of us.” When push comes to shove, the black person is still black, and thus fundamentally different from them in ways that can never be erased.
Take it from someone who has lived around and with white people all her life.
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FG said:
“white people don’t have much of a problem with blacks and other “POC” who are similar to them in terms of values and behavior, such as Oprah, Tyra, and Obama.”
Wrong, white people do. It is called racism, which is based not on “values and behavior” or even culture, but on HOW YOU LOOK. Full stop.
Both Obama and Tyra went to white schools and from that time onwards it has been burned into their brains what it means to be black in America.
Values and behaviour might, at best, lessen the racism against you but it will not make it go away. The police, for example, will stop you regardless of your values and behaviour. Employers will not call you back regardless of your values and behaviour. Car salesmen will charge you more regardless of your values and behaviour. Some landlords will not rent to you regardless of your values and behaviour. And on and on.
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“Values and behaviour might, at best, lessens the racism against you but it will not make it go away. The police, for example, will stop you regardless of your values and behaviour. Employers will not call you back regardless of your values and behaviour. Car salesmen will charge you more regardless of your values and behaviour. Some landlords will not rent to you regardless of your values and behaviour. And on and on.”
A major reason for this, though, is that appearance is being used as a proxy for values and behavior.
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@ Natasha,
Co-sign. A woman who’s spent most her life in Appalachia, I feel you all the way.
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It’s called “othering” and all human groups engage in it.
And yet when “certain” human groups do it, epic disaster ensues.
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FG says,
Three things:
1) My post was not normative. I didn’t say anyone should be respected or disrespected based on their cultural disposition.
2) As Abagond’s post indicated, some “POC” are turned off by white behaviors. Ethnocentrism is reciprocal.
2) I’m not a cultural relativist. I think some cultures are definitely better than others.
laromana says,
My comments had NOTHING to do with your three points.
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FG said:
“A major reason for this, though, is that appearance is being used as a proxy for values and behavior.”
First, most ghetto people – and even shantytown people – I have ever known do not act “ghetto”. Not that it matters: most white people keep themselves so far away from poor blacks that they have no bloody idea of the truth. Instead they get their ideas from television, from Hollywood stereotypes – and maybe from an unpleasant checkout girl at Walmart. (Jasmin: yes, I need to do that post on stereotype formation!)
Second, half of blacks in America are middle-class and presumably have the proper “values and behavior”.
Third, racism against blacks is not based on anything wrong blacks are doing. Instead it is based on whites wanting to keep their position in society, something that goes back to slave times. Everything else – the stereotypes, the talk about values and blah. blah, blah – are all rationalizations, excuses made up after the fact so that whites can have their cake and eat it too. So that whites do not have to face up to THEIR OWN SCREWED-UP VALUES AND BEHAVIOUR.
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Abagond,
You took the words out of my mouth (fingertips). 🙂
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And yet when “certain” human groups do it, epic disaster ensues.
“Certain”? Disaster ensues in all. It only becomes “epic” in certain groups because their power and reach is longer.
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This post reminds me of Fanon, in a way, and how he suggests that racism permeates ALL aspect of a culture, even down to the attitudes, psyche (ie inherently better than POC) etc. So much so that in essence it is impossible for individuals to be ‘unconsciously racist’, since the racism is everywhere and operates on a ‘coscious level’.
I think some of the confusion alluded to in the post regarding POC is that they do not understand the ‘political game’.
In the past it was a lack of understanding the ‘political game’ that caused POC to lose their civilisation etc.
And this ‘political game’ is even played out today but in a slightly different way for POC,with the same consequence.
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“First, most ghetto people – and even shantytown people – I have ever known do not act ‘ghetto’.”
I know, I know. That’s why I put “ghetto” in quotation marks.
“Third, racism against blacks is not based on anything wrong blacks are doing. Instead it is based on whites wanting to keep their position in society, something that goes back to slave times. Everything else – the stereotypes, the talk about values and blah. blah, blah – are all rationalizations, excuses made up after the fact so that whites can have their cake and eat it too. So that whites do not have to face up to THEIR OWN SCREWED-UP VALUES AND BEHAVIOUR.”
My position is that American racism as its currently practiced is a complicated phenomenon. I think there is some truth to what you say. I also believe, however, that there’s a positive feedback operating between white racism and black social problems. Discrimination in labor and housing markets as well as general anti-black sentiment in the culture certainly contribute to the rise of reactive subcultures among African American youth. These subcultures, in turn, generate social problems that feed back into white racism, starting the cycle over again.
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I agree, its like the majority of white people see themselves as complete humans and they see blacks as not fully human so therefore we aren’t equal and good enough in their eyes.
>>From my white perspective I think white people don’t talk to black people enough about what it is to be black. I know that my black friends don’t with me. They’ve never brought up race in a meaningful way and honestly I don’t know how to talk about anything meaningful without sounding stereotypical and “news” based. Didn’t abagond write a post on how to talk to white ppl? It was basically be superficial – so we are all functioning on an “unreal” basis. Right?
Its evidence of a superiority complex that comes with living in a white supremacist society.
>>Yes, we are oblivious to the struggles of black americans against white privilege and it does come across as superior since we aren’t struggling in the same ways…
And with all of the problems blacks have to deal with when it comes to jobs, housing and schools it shows that this isn’t just about “all people do this its natural.”
>> True, because we just don’t know about white privilege eventhough we live it.. and we don’t believe in it once we hear about it.
This “othering” is a deliberate attack on black people and it is taken to a whole other level by white people.
>> I don’t believe it is willful. I believe it is based in ignorance – ignorance is bliss, right? I’m sorry for what we do to make you and others feel “othered”.
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white people are a hot stinking mess. they wish they were us. they imitate black people everyday, trying to walk like us, talk like us and dont forget have our children. in some states, the white women with black children damn near equals the black people with black kids. ever been in ohio?? go there and you’ll see what im talking about. dont get it twisted one bit. white people envy us. even under white supremacy.
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From my white perspective I think white people don’t talk to black people enough about what it is to be black. I know that my black friends don’t with me. They’ve never brought up race in a meaningful way and honestly I don’t know how to talk about anything meaningful without sounding stereotypical and “news” based.
Riddle posed, riddle solved.
White people shouldn’t being talking to people of color about what it is to be of color in America. They should be asking and listening instead.
But most WP don’t want to do that. They’re too eager to weigh in and give their opinions, even though they don’t know what the hell they’re talking about. This, of course, tells POC to keep said WP at arms’ length and watch them like a hawk in the “White Friends’ Corner”, and never attempt to meaningfully discuss race with them – ever.
And when the WP – simply unable to accept fault – simply can’t see that he/she had their opportunity and blew it.
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@ FG:
My position is that American racism as its currently practiced is a complicated phenomenon. I think there is some truth to what you say. I also believe, however, that there’s a positive feedback operating between white racism and black social problems. Discrimination in labor and housing markets as well as general anti-black sentiment in the culture certainly contribute to the rise of reactive subcultures among African American youth. These subcultures, in turn, generate social problems that feed back into white racism, starting the cycle over again.
Very well put!
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@ Eurasian Sensation
“Very well put!”
To be honest, I cribbed the thesis from Gunnar Myrdal, but I think it’s still applicable after all these years.
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Ankhesen–
I agree with you that we talk over people of color – we do – that’s a fact.
And it was *you*, and i think temple, that confronted me on here enough to get me to really “think” about my defenses, and that got me to research my family – and that got me to see my family history which has led me to reflect on being white … and to reach out in the most meaningful ways I can to those in my life and apologize for being ignorant.
anyway, thanks for offending me enough to make me really listen – i appreciate it… 🙂
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@ Thaddeus,
Replied to your question on Abagond’s “drapto” post, btw. Heard back from Abagond, but you…not so much.
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Tuesday,
And did the universe implode once you did? No. Now, if only more WP could figure that one out….
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Tuesday, with regard to your comments…
” And it was *you*( ie Ankhesen), and i think temple, that confronted me on here enough to get me to really “think” about my defenses, and that got me to research my family – and that got me to see my family history which has led me to reflect anyway… thanks for offending me enough to make me really listen – i appreciate it
You only told one half of the story here.
Now I think as a member of the ‘public’, I should state the other ha ha.
The realisation in fact came from you – and you in fact did it yourself.
Very few people have the ability to be corrected, to think and reason about that correction, then to step outside the box, and also have the insight to understand that ‘pain’ (in the term of an ‘offence’) need not be a bad thing but in fact it can work for the ‘greatest’ good. I think many of our greatest insights infact come when we are in this state – but that is a different subect perhaps to discuss.
That you were able to do all this speaks immeasurable volumes about you.
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I cracked up at a reference to the “Secret Course on Whiteness” in a previous post. I’m can’t wait for your post about it.
Although it’s probably just about the DECOY courses we let black people sneak into occasionally, not the real Whiteness Classes we’re required to take.
Anyway gotta go to polo lessons at the yacht club. Happy posting!
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LMAO
“you sure our brains are made of the same stuff?”
Not going to lie, it does seem that way sometimes.
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@Ank
Replied to your question on Abagond’s “drapto” post, btw. Heard back from Abagond, but you…not so much.
Just saw it now. Took 2 hours out to formulatye a serious reply, but I doubt that you’ll like it.
Readers digest version: you can’t have people in a discussion and then expect that they’re only going to say things you agree with.
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Dear Dylan,
Please check your mailbox. The Treasurer says that you’re getting my check from the Great White Man foundation and I need that cash.
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WOw just Wow. Good thread!
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Thanks for cross-posting and for your comments, Abagond!
And thanks to all you commenters for your good words!
Well, the ones that were good, that is. 😉 Let’s go.
***
Dylan, I’m sure you’m can’t wait for Thaddeus’s post-ironic yacht-fail!
FG said: “My position is that American racism as its [sic] currently practiced is a complicated phenomenon.”
That’s not a position, that’s an axiom. You won’t find an anti-racist who maintains “American racism as currently practiced is a simple and uncomplicated social phenomenon.” Bzzz! Wrong door.
White people generally open with such non-statements when they feel a need to passive-aggressively insult a person of color’s intelligence, i.e. “your simple brain might have trouble grasping the profound complexity of the phenomena and noumena which my white mind is capable of encompassing”. As we all know, that usually means, an onset of crumbling supporting arguments. Like a mudslide, baby!
Your *position* is that black social problems justify white racism and white racism perpetuates black social problems. While seemingly a magnanimous liberal concession that white racism has something to do with social conditions, this easily toppled hypothesis suggests narrow exposure to 500 years of racial history and limited understanding of the construction of race and whiteness which far predate your positive feedback loop between discrimation and reactive subculture. Of course white folks would *like* to convince themselves that racial inequality has such benign foundations.
tuesday said: “Unfortunately the author hasn’t run across many whites who have learned to unlearn years of white social conditioning.”
Do you mind quoting the passage which informs you who I’ve run across in my life? I mean, I gotta wonder how you know who I know. Isn’t that a bit arrogant, based on this one story which I introduce as a “quasi-joke”, to think you know so much about me? I’ve known, and know, plenty of white people (and people of color too) who have broken through layer after layer of their own conditioning, through fearless and searing self-interrogation. Now what any of this has to do with this post, I do not know.
Cheers, peeps!
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FG said:
‘My position is that American racism as its currently practiced is a complicated phenomenon. I think there is some truth to what you say. I also believe, however, that there’s a positive feedback operating between white racism and black social problems. Discrimination in labor and housing markets as well as general anti-black sentiment in the culture certainly contribute to the rise of reactive subcultures among African American youth. These subcultures, in turn, generate social problems that feed back into white racism, starting the cycle over again.”
Zuky’s answer was excellent, but if you do not like his, you can try mine:
So like if you beat up your wife and broke her hand and then dinner was half an hour late, I suppose you would beat her for that too, right? Because, you know, being an abusive jerk is “complicated” and you are SO HELPLESS in the face of “positive feedback” that you cannot stop yourself from beating her some more? Is that it? “She made me do it!”
Her broken hand should TELL you there is something wrong with YOU!!!! With YOUR VALUES AND BEHAVIOUR. But no, INSTEAD you twist it and use it as an EXCUSE for FURTHER bad behaviour.
THAT is the sign of someone who is a COLD-HEARTED MORALLY IRRESPONSIBLE JERK. The sign of someone who has no VALUES but ME, ME, ME!
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Thaddeus,
Once again, you deliberately misunderstood – surprise, surprise.
1) Reread:
“Disagreement” is not the problem. Denial is the problem. Delusion is the problem.
2) Stop projecting your inability to handle disagreement onto me.
3) I’m beginning to think that when you accuse men like Wise and Jensen of backhanded white supremacy, you’re also projecting.
Fashion tip from Moi: for a privileged individual who professes an interest in social justice, you talk too much. You’re supposed to be listening more than talking, remember? Especially since you’ve often demonstrated an astounding lack of insight. Now, I already have a file on you, but I an addendum wouldn’t hurt.
Thanks for the excellent material.
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Her broken hand should TELL you there is something wrong with YOU!!!! With YOUR VALUES AND BEHAVIOUR. But no, INSTEAD you twist it and use it as an EXCUSE for FURTHER bad behaviour.
THAT is the sign of someone who is a COLD-HEARTED MORALLY IRRESPONSIBLE JERK. The sign of someone who has no VALUES but ME, ME, ME!
Good one, Abagond!!!
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“So like if you beat up your wife and broke her hand and then dinner was half an hour late, I suppose you would beat her for that too, right? Because, you know, being an abusive jerk is “complicated” and you are SO HELPLESS in the face of “positive feedback” that you cannot stop yourself from beating her some more? Is that it? “She made me do it!”
Her broken hand should TELL you there is something wrong with YOU!!!! With YOUR VALUES AND BEHAVIOUR. But no, INSTEAD you twist it and use it as an EXCUSE for FURTHER bad behaviour.
THAT is the sign of someone who is a COLD-HEARTED MORALLY IRRESPONSIBLE JERK. The sign of someone who has no VALUES but ME, ME, ME!”
I don’t entirely agree with the analogy. First of all, the things many white people (especially working class ones) are worried about, such as crime and taxation for social services, are a bit more serious than late dinner. Second, many whites don’t perceive a connection between their own behavior and the social problems in the inner cities. They view their own actions as a rational response to those problems. Identifying the actual source of social pathology is a difficult endeavor in any case. So it’s a bit more complicated than your making it out to be.
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Let me just say that I’m not trying to offend anyone. I’m just trying to provide the most accurate diagnosis I can of the current racial problem in the US. I think that these issues can be substantially resolved, but that requires that people start “thinking outside the box”, as they say.
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Identifying the actual source of social pathology is a difficult endeavor in any case. So it’s a bit more complicated than your making it out to be.
Logically speaking, it’s not difficult. 1 + 1 = 2 and if anyone really wants to rationally isolate the pathology, it’s not that hard.
Denial is what makes it difficult. Self-delusion makes it difficult. WP don’t want to connect their behavior to social problems in inner cities. After all, their “ancestors never owned slaves” and they’re “all God-fearing churchfolk” and they “have the same financial pressures and social drawbacks” and they still managed to “pull themselves up by their bootstraps” so in their self-righteous minds, POC just need to quit whining and do the same.
Denial is not synonymous with ignorance, by the way. Ignorance is “not knowing”. Denial is “knowing, but wishing you didn’t.”
Denial also the blood, backbone, and beating heart of white privilege…just FYI.
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Let me just say that I’m not trying to offend anyone. I’m just trying to provide the most accurate diagnosis I can of the current racial problem in the US.
Fine, but understand I’m not trying to offend you either when I say, “You’ve failed.”
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Re Kai: “Do you mind quoting the passage which informs you who I’ve run across in my life? I mean, I gotta wonder how you know who I know. Isn’t that a bit arrogant, based on this one story which I introduce as a “quasi-joke”, to think you know so much about me?”
The passage, but more generally, the entire article:
“”So white people like saying “they’re just like us!” and people of color like saying “they’re not like us at all!” (And quite often that’s my honest feeling.) Yet in actuality, if we step back, we know that white people usually do not view people of color as fully human, while people of color usually do confer a common humanity to all people and especially to white folks.””
— The whole passage does come across as a representation of the white people you have encountered in your life – I could have keyed in on the word “usually” and realized that perhaps you didn’t just encounter the white people who people who were being referenced in the quasi -joke. I definitely wasn’t trying to come across as arrogant, and I don’t know anything about your personal life so being presumptious was a stretch…. I am sure I am just being white and generalizing, but when it says “white people” and not “some” or “most” or “as a general rule” – it does read as if it is “all”, it’s a common mistake we make.
Just curious, why do you confer a common humanity “especially” to white people? What is it that makes white people get the “especial”?
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“White people generally open with such non-statements when they feel a need to passive-aggressively insult a person of color’s intelligence, i.e. “your simple brain might have trouble grasping the profound complexity of the phenomena and noumena which my white mind is capable of encompassing”. As we all know, that usually means, an onset of crumbling supporting arguments. Like a mudslide, baby!”
As regular readers of the blog know, I’m not white but mixed. I don’t think myself smarter than others, but I think being racially ambiguous can definitely give you a clearer perspective on these issues. Those who can clearly be identified with a particular group are often (but not always) too invested in their status to assess the situation critically.
“Your *position* is that black social problems justify white racism and white racism perpetuates black social problems. While seemingly a magnanimous liberal concession that white racism has something to do with social conditions, this easily toppled hypothesis suggests narrow exposure to 500 years of racial history and limited understanding of the construction of race and whiteness which far predate your positive feedback loop between discrimation and reactive subculture. Of course white folks would *like* to convince themselves that racial inequality has such benign foundations.”
I never said “black social problems justify white racism.” Like many on this blog, you seem to have a problem distinguishing normative from empirical statements. I said that that the two are causally connected in both directions, not that one justifies the other. Furthermore, I said that American racism “as it’s currently practiced” is well characterized by the positive feedback loop. I didn’t say this is always how it has been. Please read my statements more carefully.
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Abagond, thanks for the additional explanation, well said, though I’m afraid futile!
tuesday, when a person of color says “white people [verb] [object]” it doesn’t mean “every single white person I’ve ever met [verb] [object]”. It means “a signifcant portion of white people [verb] [object]”. This isn’t a mistake, it’s how normal people talk. Please note the number of qualifiers such as “most”, “many”, “some”, “usually”, which I use in this piece. But if I don’t add such a qualifier every single time the phrase “white people” comes up, I’m confident that observant readers can make the leap with me and not jump to any conclusions about who I know. Fair?
As for your question, the reason a common humanity is conferred especially upon white people is quite simple: white supremacism. Racist conditioning affects everyone. This is why people of color talk about learning self-love in place of the self-hatred we’re taught by white racist dominant society. Have you seen the Kiri Davis short film “A Girl Like Me”? You might get something out of it. I also have lots of more explicit writings on my old blog, e.g. “The White Liberal Conundrum”, if you’re interested in more.
FG, I admire your desire to continue flailing about while your arguments lie in ruins around your fallen form. Did you recently learn the words “normative” and “empirical” in a social studies class? You keep clinging to those words when you have nothing to say. Did they also tell you that one drop of whiteness elevates your perspective? They did, didn’t they? Please read all statements more carefully. Thanks for playing.
Peace.
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Lol @ Kai. You’re funny; you should stop by more often.
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Kai,
Loving you, co-signing all the way, and will be haunting your blog from hereon out.
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“FG, I admire your desire to continue flailing about while your arguments lie in ruins around your fallen form.”
LMAO DAMN!
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Pretty much all stereotypes that have sufficient power to them are going to lead to some measure of positive feedback loop: http://reducingstereotypethreat.org/
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Meaning, positive feedback loop isn’t anything special to black/white relations in the US today; it’s the nature of stereotypes in general.
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Lynn,
Some very good work there regarding the link. I had almost given up hope that there was anything like this on the web. Or perhaps its a case I may need to improve my research skills he he he??
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Natasha W, thanks!
Y, glad you get my sense of humor! 🙂
Ankhesen, good shit! thanks for sharing the link, I read it all the way through! 😉
*raised fist*
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I haven’t seen whites reaching out, I’ve seen them pitying blacks and looking down on black people myself.
Preach.
I’ve seen a few in my time, emphasis on the word “few”.
And Thaddy boy ain’t one of ’em.
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Lynn,
Good link! I did some research on stereotype threat and internalization about a year or so ago, and a new criticism rising in the literature is that the efforts to eliminate the effects of stereotypes are taking precedent over eliminating the stereotypes in the first place, which is kind of like putting up signs instead of fixing the bridge.
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zuky wrote:
When white people tell stories about people of color, it’s almost always about white people reaching out to people of color, seeing firsthand the pain and the obstacles we face in our everyday lives, inevitably much gnashing of teeth, leading eventually to the epiphany that, in the end, despite different backgrounds and surfaces, “people of color are just like us! we all want the same things! we’re all hurt by the same things!”
Obviously zuky does not get around.
When whites tell stories about people of color, they often tell stories of how they witnessed blacks literally jumping for joy after OJ Simpson was acquitted for the double homicide he committed.
After witnessing that national outburst of public support for a guilty murderer, some whites realized something was wrong in the minds of millions of blacks. Whites heard blacks repeatedly evade the question of OJ’s guilt, often hearing something like “well, OJ knows who killed Nicole and Ron, but he was not the killer.”
Meanwhile, whites often wonder why blacks have trouble pronouncing a simple word. The word for “inquire”. Why do blacks pronounce it as though it is the tool used for chopping wood?
You can be sure whites are waiting for the moment Obama says “ax”.
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“Obviously zuky does not get around.
When whites tell stories about people of color, they often tell stories of how they witnessed blacks literally jumping for joy after OJ Simpson was acquitted for the double homicide he committed.
After witnessing that national outburst of public support for a guilty murderer, some whites realized something was wrong in the minds of millions of blacks. Whites heard blacks repeatedly evade the question of OJ’s guilt, often hearing something like “well, OJ knows who killed Nicole and Ron, but he was not the killer.”
Meanwhile, whites often wonder why blacks have trouble pronouncing a simple word. The word for “inquire”. Why do blacks pronounce it as though it is the tool used for chopping wood?
You can be sure whites are waiting for the moment Obama says “ax”.”
Response: and the dumbest comment on this blog award goes to…
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@Peanut:
LOL! Oh, that would be TOO easy. 😉
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Am I the only one that sometimes gets sick of being referred to as “a person of color”? I’m a man of mixed heritage. I’m not a @#$%^&* color.
As for the OJ thing, if the LAPD had an ounce of competency and a few less racist cops *cough* MARK “I’ve never used the N word” FUHRMAN *cough* OJ would probably be in prison.
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@Clear,
I agree. Black advocates rail against “white privilege” but then go and treat white people as uber-special by referring to everyone else in terms of white people.
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No Slappz:
You and your white friends need to get out more because it seems like the only black people you all know about are on television.
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No Slappz:
I just deleted a comment of yours about O.J. Simpson. You are derailing this thread into one your pet topics again.
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abagond,
My posts that you deleted included a mention of OJ and the subsequent white views that are exchanged during actual conversations that occur among whites.
Once again, it is clear you prefer to maintain the sanctity of the black alternative universe instead of realizing there are some instances when black attitudes were widely expressed and that those expressions surprised and disappointed whites.
For people in NY, the OJ story was added to the Al Sharpton Tawana Brawley hoax story and the two were combined in white minds, and the combination created even more disappointment.
For those who know a little more, there have been conversations among whites regarding Sonny Carson and how his role in the Ocean Hill Brownsville fight over the public schools — back around 1967 — started the public schools on a downtrend that has only recently been reversed.
Bottom line, I can tell you about the real conversations that occur among whites. But it seems you and most of your readers would prefer to cook up your own.
Meanwhile, the goofy statements of college-age liberal whites who want to “share your pain” are just that — goofy.
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No Slappz:
1. I am not trying to maintain any black alternate reality – I am trying to keep this thread on topic. If you want to rant about OJ then do it on your own blog.
2. Zuky is talking about the stories whites tell about living, breathing people of colour that they encounter, not the ones they see on television or read about in the the newspaper.
You should keep in mind that the black people who appear in the news or on television are
a) not ordinary blacks and
b) are being presented to you by the whites who run newspapers and television stations and networks.
So while Zuky is talking about the stories that whites tell about ordinary blacks (and other people of colour), you are talking about THE STORIES ABOUT STORIES of newsworthy blacks that white people tell.
If this is what makes up most of what white people say about black people, well then no wonder blacks wind up being so stereotyped in a bad way since it is way easier to appear in the press for doing something bad than for doing something good, especially if you are black.
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No Slappz said:
“Once again, it is clear you prefer to maintain the sanctity of the black alternative universe instead of realizing there are some instances when black attitudes were widely expressed and that those expressions surprised and disappointed whites.
For people in NY, the OJ story was added to the Al Sharpton Tawana Brawley hoax story and the two were combined in white minds, and the combination created even more disappointment.”
Why should they be surprised and disappointed? Are you are telling me that white people have no idea why most blacks saw the OJ and the Tawana Brawley thing so differently?
(I know this is a bit off topic, but I will let you answer my question if you can do it in one comment.)
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abagond,
Inasmuch as OJ killed his ex-wife and Ron Goldman and Tawana Brawley was never raped, it was astonishing to whites that a stunningly high percentage of blacks refuse to acknowledge the truth.
It’s one thing to have different views about difficult issues — like police brutality — but it is quite another to support a guilty murderer and a woman who lied about being a crime victim.
It seems that you are among those who cannot see the difference, which probably means you will not quite understand that whites will reach some major — negative — conclusions about you when the white person realizes where you stand on this issue and similar issues.
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Abagond,
You and your white friends need to get out more because it seems like the only black people you all know about are on television.
And we’re…surprised by this? *blink* I mean, when the conversation was about about everyday white men harassing everyday black women, drapto-boy’s mind here immediately turned to the a certain black house of ill repute he frequents.
I mean, seriously, Abagond…yes, arrogance is an issue with “some” of the commenters on here, but their cluelessness is starting to seriously gush now.
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Uncle Milton:
You once asked me why I think white people have a childlike trust in the police. It is because they say stuff like what No Slappz just said in his last comment on this thread.
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Ankhesen:
Most white people are a lost cause but some are not.
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I wish you would write the you are not like other blacks post. I lost count of how many times I’ve heard that or you speak so different
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“It” falls in the “lost cause” category.
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He has Alfred E. Neumann beat!
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It could not be more obvious to me that no_slappz has the intelligence and worth of the dried shit I scraped off my shoe after my morning jog the other day. The extent of cognitive and intellectual trauma caused by rabid convulsions of racist fear is, sadly, beyond recovery. No reason to give it much thought at this point, just scrape it off and toss it out.
Peace.
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Kai…truly…it’s a pleasure.
*bowls over laughing*
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Kai, you are so freaking funny!
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I have that “you seem like a reasonable guy” look.
After they talk to you for a few minutes, they realize their mistake. As for conspiracy theories, there are millions of people who believe that aliens are among us, most of whom, I might add, are white. Should I impute this lunacy to each and every white person I talk to? Cluelessness in regards to sensationalist topics is not exclusive to any group. In the name of Dotar Sojat aka John Carter of Mars, get a grip!
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I just deleted a half dozen or so comments. Again: OJ is off-topic.
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No Slappz:
I told you not once but twice not to write about OJ yet you continue to write about him. Your comments are now downgraded to spam status.
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@abagond:
I saw this on the commenting policy.
I’m just sayin’. 😉
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@ leigh204,
Checkmate!
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Wow Leigh
Your last comment was worth coming out of lurkerville for. 😉
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@Ankhesen Mié:
I think I’d be good at playing chess, yes?. 😉
@AO:
Thank you. Hehe. *blushes*
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Leigh said:
“@abagond:
I saw this on the commenting policy.
If I delete a comment of yours, take it as a warning. If I find myself deleting too many of your comments, I will ban you.
I’m just sayin’. 😉 “
Fair enough. No Slappz is hereby banned.
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Oh, no, you didn’t! 😛 You mean, you did? LOL! 😀
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LMAO
Farewell no_slappz!!!
*happy dancing*
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Hallelujah! 🙂
*High fives Leigh*
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**resounding applause**
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Christmas comes early to the land of Abagond! 😀
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Where is the confetti?! Happy dance I am moonwalking. 🙂
Oh happy day, oh happy day!
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Strangely, I think miss No_Slappz already. Kinda like in “The Simpsons” when Bart got Principal Skinner fired, but then felt strangely incomplete without his nemesis.
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What a Victimization-Fest.
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Crawl back into your cave!
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