The following is based on Chapter 6 of Frantz Fanon’s “Black Skin, White Masks” (1952): “The Black Man and Psychopathology”:
Why white people are so afraid of black men:
- Black men are seen as being way less moral.
- White men fear they will take white women from them.
Take the last one first:
White men think that black men have bigger penises. They think that once a white woman sleeps with a black man she will never want a white man again: if it is not for their size then it is because black men are so much better in bed.
None of this is based on fact. According to science the African penis and the European penis are the same size on average. There is no proof whatsoever that “Once you go black you never come back”. And prostitutes will tell you that black men and white men are pretty much the same in bed.
Fanon finds it a bit odd that any man should be thinking that much about other men’s penises and sex appeal, that they should be saying stuff like black men have an “aura of sensuality”, etc. He says it comes from repressed homosexuality.
But white women too are afraid of black men. Fanon saw it for himself when he fought in Europe in the Second World War: he was in three or four countries and every time white women would shrink back in fear if he asked them for a dance – even though he was hardly in a position to do them harm.
Black men are seen as little better than animals. Therefore they are feared for what their bodies can do, which means they are feared for their penises, which accordingly become large in the white imagination. Thus: “whoever says rape says black man”.
In Europe Jews were feared too but no one feared Jewish rapists. When violence was turned on them no one thought to castrate them. Because they were feared for their minds, not their bodies.
But the sex thing is not all of it. Blacks are also seen as morally dark, as sinful and evil – as if blacks were born with original sin but whites were born pure.
Even in Martinique where Fanon grew up and where nearly everyone was black, his mother would tell him to “stop acting like a nigger” if he did something wrong. And if his conscience was clear he would say he was “white as snow”.
This comes from the colour black being seen as evil, bad, dark and dirty and the colour white as pure, innocent and clean. Whites thought that way long before they ever took blacks as slaves, but it did help to support the idea of black people as morally bad and whites as morally pure.
Whites also use blacks as scapegoats: it is easier for them to imagine blacks as the screwed-up ones instead of facing up to their own morally broken nature.
See also:
I still can’t find the link but the primary audience for black on white porn is white men. And a man who thinks too much about another man’s penis when he is about to have sex with a woman…is most likely gay.
The whole men of colour want to rape the “pure white woman” is as old as dirt. As Fanon stated there is fear of them “never going back”.
I hate the Black buck sterotype, because it is dehumanising to black men and women. For black women back in slave days, it was seen as ok to rape them becasue they must be used to rough sex becasue of how well endowed black men supposedly are.
When the Chinese started coming to America during the Gold rush the men pretty much got the same deal as black men and native men. They were going to rape the pure white woman by drugging them with opium. But of course asian men started to be seen as emasculating and therefore not a real threat.
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I never understood the penis thing or fear of scary, oversexed black man. It’s not that there aren’t attractive black men, but I don’t think black men are naturally more sensual than other races of men.
I never met a black man in my life but I don’t think I would be frightened by a black man asking for a dance or something. I don’t understand what’s scary about black people.
As for white=good and black=bad, I am aware of this way of thinking, but the thing is, I never saw that as something that is in any way connected to human skin colour. After all, white people skin isn’t really white and black people skin isn’t really black, so I must say I never understood the connection between actual colours and skin tones/races.
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“I never met a black man in my life but I don’t think I would be frightened by a black man asking for a dance or something.”
Mira,
Never? That is unbelievable! So do you form most of your views from media? You are very fair in your comments and accessments.
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Whites in general are afraid of blacks mainly because they don’t understand us. Many of them choose not to understand blacks and will allow the wrong sources to tell them what blackness is. They mainly rely on fear privileges to have as little to do with us as possible. Whites have been programmed in some ways that make them think that whites are “normal” or superior people and blacks are “other” people or people closely related to monkeys.
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“I still can’t find the link but the primary audience for black on white porn is white men. And a man who thinks too much about another man’s penis when he is about to have sex with a woman…is most likely gay.”
response: The stereotype is racist and its insulting to bw too. I agree during slavery bm were treated like man-whores and made to sleep with multiple women and seperated from their loved ones in order to increase the slave population. Black women were treated like brood mares and I remember reading in slave narratiev that if the slave master didn’t think bm/bw were having children fast enough sometimes they were made to have sex in front of the overseer. It’s not a nice stereotype and its kinda sad how some bm think its a good thing or that its funny and cute to play up to the mandingo stereotype. P*nis size isn’t everything, I think intelligence is far more alluring and sexy than a man’s genitals. I can’t tell you what it does to me when I meet intelligent men, especially men who are good in science and math. I had this guy tutor me one time and he was black and i just remember him leaning over me and looking at my math work and helping me figure out how to solve the problem…He was using these fancy words to help me understand WHY i was doing what i was doing in the problem it was so hot!
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Never? That is unbelievable! So do you form most of your views from media? You are very fair in your comments and accessments.
Never. Black people don’t live here (only a few of them- and I do mean a few). I also didn’t travel much. I was in Paris and Italy for a week once but I didn’t have a chance to meet any black people.
I formed my views from education. Here I mean on regular education, school, university etc. We talked about Africa, slavery in America, etc. Unfortunately, there’s also media, and I guess some of my views are formed that way. But when I say “media” I mostly mean “(American) movies and TV”, not (American) news. So stereotypes I saw about black people might not be the one that are generally popular in the US. Remember, while movies made by whites tend to be racist, they also try to be politically correct. So the image they give about black people is in a way idealized, as much as it is demonized. Not sure how to explain it. If someone is interested in hearing more, I’ll try to explain better what I meant.
There’s only one stereotype about black people that exists here- and that is this one (penis thing). It is believed black people have big penises. And that is considered a positive thing. People here – especially male people- actually believe blacks are proud of this stereotype. I don’t think any of them would believe me blacks see this stereotype as untrue and harmful.
That is actually a cultural thing. I don’t know about (white) men in America, but here, having a big penis and being a great lover is imperative (why do men believe having a big penis equals being a good lover is something I don’t get, but that’s another problem). So, it’s not unusual for guys here to talk about their own penises (sometimes subtly, sometimes not), implying how… impressive they are.
As for black people, most of them never met one, but I bet they (local guys) consider that “black men have huge penises” is a fact, not a stereotype. Many guys here believe their penis could “match” a black man’s penis. A girl I knew in school married a black man in England, and when her ex boyfriend found out about it, his reaction was along the lines of “of course, after me, she had to go with a black guy, no others could match us”. Note “us”: he saw himself as the same as black men in that department and was very proud of it.
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Thanks for continuing to summarize these chapters, Abagond. I’ll admit that I stopped reading the book.
Based on your rape post last week, some people still believe the hypersexual rapist of pure womanhood stuff. Even some POC buy into this & some perpetuate the stereotype.
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The Negro & Psychopathology – Ch 6
http://www.cscsarchive.org/dataarchive/textfiles/textfile.2007-10-15.6766891396/file
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The Negro & Psychopathology: An analysis by Dr. Richard Clarke
Click to access 06AFanonNegroandPsychopathology.pdf
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And another analysis beginning at:
V. “The Negro and Psychopathology”: A Summary
by J. E. Seigel
Source: The American Scholar, Vol. 38, No. 1, Winter, 1968–69, pp. 84–96
http://www.eng.fju.edu.tw/Literary_Criticism/postcolonism/g_fanon.doc
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Ive been waiting for your Fanon update.
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@ peanut
“It’s not a nice stereotype and its kinda sad how some bm think its a good thing or that its funny and cute to play up to the mandingo stereotype.”
Co sign!!!! I was on another site and the black men were all patting themselves on the back about being seen as having the most sexual prowess and doing the most IR porn with white women. What this dummies didnt understand is that
1. the premise of the stereotype is black men are good for only one thing, sex
2. black men are essentially no better than animals. They have no control of their urges and will do anything for sex, even if it means raping or “violating” the pure white woman.
Whats worse is these same men complain about not being seen as intelligent in comparison to other races of men.
I dont understand how some black men can buy into a stereotypes that paints them to be sex crazed animals and insults their intelligence only to turn around an wonder why they arent being taken seriously.
Dont get me wrong stereotypes are horrible and its definitely NOT the black man’s fault that they exist but they need to REJECT the stereotypes wholesale instead of picking and choosing which ones they like.
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why is my comment in moderation???
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And with regard to the topic/post ‘All blacks are racist’ and ‘precise language’ something which I had alluded to earlier.
The summary of Dr. R. Clarke concludes and alludes to what I said in that thread:
“…according to Fanon what is repressed in Black people is not racism per se but ‘blackness’ itself and with which he is taught to associate.it. The Black person is at war with his own very self, uneasy within his own skin, taught to hate and reject self by virtue of the equation of the colour ‘Black’ with everything evil.
The Black person learns to repress his blackness in order to identify with everything white, at a huge cost to himself.
The Black person unconscious consist of everything which he is taught to despise about himself, in short, of his very own biological being and his heritage.”
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Abagond wrote:
According to science the African penis and the European penis are the same size on average.
Wait a minute! Just hold on now. I know this issue is debatable, but there is evidence that black men are larger. Not outrageously so, but larger in terms of length and width. Here is a chart:
http://www.buzzfeed.com/jonny5/penis-size-chart-by-ethnicity-aub
Y wrote:
1. the premise of the stereotype is black men are good for only one thing, sex
Hold on! Who said it is a zero sum game? Black men can be good at a variety of things, including sex (but not astro-physics:))
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what i’d like to know about these “studies,” is who is participating? I know these are not accurate because there is no way they took a look at the majority of white males, black males and asians males and made a comparison. so who is conducting these so called “studies.” that is what i’d liek to know. Secondly, even racists on steve sailer’s blog agree w/ the mandingo thing that should tell you something.
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I knew it would be but a matter of time before someone presented that study. This fascination with penises sizes is quite curious.
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the thing is the same white guys (some of them) who claim that black men are walking testicles and love to pull out these studies are also the ones who love to pull out these “studies,” that state the blacks on average are less intelligent than whites *cough cough* steve sailer. So its a little foolish to buy into this stuff. Black men are awesome, but its not just because of their privates. Find something else ot be proud of. Be proud of the strong black men who have affected history, be proud of the strong black fathers who stick around and raise their kids like my dad and grandfather. Black men private parts are not the only thing to be proud of or to associate as a positive with black men.
Black men helped build a strong african-american culture and have overcome great adversity, lets be proud of that.
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i’m not talking about RR in my comment btw
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Curious ain’t the word!
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Eyeballing that chart RR linked to, it doesn’t seem like the centers of the white and black distributions are that far apart.
Besides, almost all African American men have ancestral origins in West Africa. Do men all over Africa display a similar distribution? I doubt it.
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what i’d like to know about these “studies,” is who is participating?
By the sounds of it, they went around to a bunch of men and told them to “drop your skivvies!” They then pulled out a measuring tape and took notes which they later drew charts, recorded the statistics etc. Of course if they did these studies via questionnaires, most of the men probably lied as to their actual size. What man is going to fess up to having a small schlong? As to who’s participating? The local exhibitionists. How big was the sample population? That’s up for grabs. What is even more bizarre, is the people who would conduct such studies. What purpose do they serve other than which group of men have the bigger genitals. What next? which group of women have the bigger bosoms? What purpose would this serve. Would it serve as a boasting point? If there is a medical angle to these studies, then okay. Otherwise, what’s the point?
Black men can be good at a variety of things, including sex (but not astro-physics:))
Is that the next ‘study’? Or are they already out there? Which group is better at sex? How are they going to conduct this one? Hump all the participants and take notes? All they have to do is consult the local prostitutes, they’ll tell you.
I have said it once and I will say it again this ‘curiosity’ about black mens’ sexuality among some white men is bizarre to say the least. It’s as if they are secretly attracted to black men and are afraid to admit to it. Get on with it!
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honestly, its just images like these:
they are so unreal compared to the bm I know. these type of stereotypes just don’t even make sense cuz none of the bm I know ar remotely close to them…
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Herneith, curious is the word. If you get my drift. 😉
But here’s the thing. No one that has provided this chart as “proof” has ever been able to produce the actual study that goes along with it. For all we know, someone created that chart on their home PC and slapped a BMJ logo on it to make it appear authentic. This is the internetz, people. If in fact there is such a study out there, I would be interested in knowing how they collected their data. Surely they didn’t take volunteers?
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what i’d like to know about these “studies,” is who is participating? I know these are not accurate because there is no way they took a look at the majority of white males, black males and asians males and made a comparison.
Honestly, I think all of these studies are inacurate. ANY study that’s about penis size is doomed, if not because of stereotypes, than because of a simple fact: how to measure it and who’s measuring. Not to mention some even take the size in flaccid state, which makes no sense. Etc, etc.
Now I sound like I’m obsessed with the matter, lol.
The other problem of these studies is… Penis size is a biological fact. RACE ISN’T. See the problem? In other words: who is “black man” and what does that even mean in terms of this kind of studies?
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Yes, it’s not clear if this was even published in a peer-reviewed paper. It could well be a hoax.
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I found another table at the World Health Organization site.
http://whqlibdoc.who.int/hq/1998/WHO_RHT_FPP_98.15_spec&guidelines.pdf (See appendix III, pg 62)
They use Kinsey’s data for whites and blacks, so take this with a grain of salt.
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With regard to:
“so take this with a grain of salt”
Then to what purposes and end does it serve??
…Sounds like another tautology
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peanut & Y,
Co-sign.
Abagond,
*shakes head* You da man
Mira,
You amaze me – again!
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How wonderful and conveniently liberal someone without the facts says that white men and black men are relatively the same in sexual organ size. “Now that is a myth!”Arabic peoples coming into central Africa 1000 years ago were stunned at the size of African genitalia and barbarism of those people..African males reach puberty earlier, have more sex partners and stay with their children and original spouse less frequently than Caucasians and Asians. Crime profilers know that certain types of rape and murder can be attributed to age and race. Spur of the moment bursting in and disorganized sexual assault can be attributed to blacks more often. That does not lessen any assault from other races but is in fact is more representative of the negroid type. Black Africans south of the Sahara score on average IQ examinations a scale of 70, which in the modern world would classify them as handicapped. The higher levels of testerone among black males and females makes them better athletes in general and also more aggressive and inclined to violence. In the western world where blacks and whites have comingled it has produced a peoples that are inbetween in both aggression and intellect. A close examination of these characteristics has been examined by many respected anthropologists at there peril. As a footnote please read Race Evolution and Behaviour by Dr. Phillipe Rushton
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With regard to:
“so take this with a grain of salt”
Then to what purposes and end does it serve??
…Sounds like another tautology
I would add further
….And also by highlighting it diminishes and minimises that this is a ‘White sterotype’ that Whites have of Blacks as it pertains – and also relates – to all things sexually, as one of the explanation of how Fanon believe ‘White racism’ may emerge ie as a ‘projection’
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My HIV/AIDS professor said there were no racial differences in penis sizes worldwide. She said the differences were with in +/- .2 cm or so, statistically insignificant.
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@Mira–
LOL!
“The other problem of these studies is… Penis size is a biological fact. RACE ISN’T. See the problem? In other words: who is “black man” and what does that even mean in terms of this kind of studies?”
When I read this all I keep thinking of is white men with big penises being reraced as black, their white privilege taken away & all they’d have left is a huge dong.
Get over it guys. Penis size cannot be determined by skin color.
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“The higher levels of testerone among black males and females makes them better athletes in general and also more aggressive and inclined to violence. In the western world where blacks and whites have comingled it has produced a peoples that are inbetween in both aggression and intellect. A close examination of these characteristics has been examined by many respected anthropologists at there peril. As a footnote please read Race Evolution and Behaviour by Dr. Phillipe Rushton”
if blacks are more prone to violence, then why did whites enslave , whip, mutilate thousands upon thousands of captured africans??? why have some of the worst mass murders in history been committed by europeans???…blacks are no more prone to violence than any one else, in fact one could argue that whites have committed more corrupt acts of violence in the modern era than anyone simply because of the fact that they have resources to do so…
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Dr. Phillipe Rushton has been exposed as a fraud and racist. Try again.
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Right: black violence over the past 500 years does not even BEGIN to compare to white violence.
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Hiroshima and Nagasaki
Transatlantic slave Trade
Manifest Destiny
World War I
World War II
Holocaust
The Crusades
…Among many more
I dont think whites are inherently more violent but god damn if we had to chose a race, white people have everyone else get when it comes to mass murder
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Blacks didnt go crazy in America until after the Civil Rights movement…black crime only began to go awry after crack cocaine was introduced into predom. black neighborhoods.
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As a footnote please read Race Evolution and Behaviour by Dr. Phillipe Rushton
First of all, Rushton is not an anthropologist but a psychologist. Secondly, his ‘theories’ have been thoroughly routed by other academics:
Click to access Lieberman2001CA.pdf
Like other racists with an agenda, he has expounded upon the innate inferiority of blacks in particular. He is also another weirdo obsessed with black mens’ genitals and ‘high’ testosterone’ levels. He just couches it in jargon and academic terms. So no, I will not be reading anything by him soon. You don’t need an academic to proliferate the already existent stereotypes which abound, in regards to black men and black people in general. He illustrates the example of education and brains not being synonymous.
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Raphael –
First of all, you are so ignorant that I will just respond briefly to your comments. If you believe these “facts” are true and makes you believe you are superior in any way, I hope you have a good time living in your fantasy world.
Secondly, I have dated black and white men, and the smallest penis from any man I have been intimate with was black. There are some white men who, compared to my ex, would disprove this sterotype. So my point is that this sterotype (about black men being bigger) is definitely not true — not in my experience!
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“Blacks didnt go crazy in America until after the Civil Rights movement…black crime only began to go awry after crack cocaine was introduced into predom. black neighborhoods.”
and btw the government did introduce crack into the bc…
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the government, which is predominately white…introduced crack into the bc. they allowed some nicaraguans to have refuge in america and allowed them to bring drugs into the bc in exchange for their not supporting a leader in nicaragua who the american government didnt’ like.
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What is even more bizarre, is the people who would conduct such studies. What purpose do they serve other than which group of men have the bigger genitals.
Actually, in principle, it’s not that unreasonable a thing for someone to study, since if there were really big average differences in penis size by race it would matter to condom companies when deciding what sizes to market in what region.
In practice, though, the ones I’ve heard of (like Kinsey, for example) involve asking men to measure their own penises and self-report, which doesn’t seem to me likely to be sufficiently reliable to be able to say that one group’s penises are larger than another’s. Also, FWIW, the Kinsey survey had gay men reporting bigger shlongs than straight men, which strikes me as more likely to be some sort of self-sampling bias than reality.
The one thing I can say for the penis size claim is that it’s less self-evidently false than the intelligence claim; neither African history (e.g. Timbuktu) nor the African present (e.g. the fact that way more people there are bilingual and trilingual than is plausible if the continent were really full of people who were borderline mentally retarded) fits with the claims the likes of Rushton make about black people’s intelligence, whereas accepting the penis size claim would only require me to believe that one set of penises that I mostly haven’t seen is on average slightly larger than another set of penises that I mostly haven’t seen. But then, given that the same people are promoting both claims, it’s not as if they’re a credible source.
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With regard to the issue of genatalia size it is a myth, that has been engendered within Whites, and then ‘projected’ out on to the Black male and but also Black female.
In a way it operates like the ‘rape myths’ which are a false set of beliefs or stereotypes designed to continue the phenomena of rape, inadvertently or otherwise and to have a negative impact on women.
The key question that is apparently overlooked is:
What does this in fact say about White people, their sexuality, and the need to project this onto Blacks which has disasterous consequences at societal level for Black people??
This is what Fanon investigates but also its reciprocal action on Blacks
Finally this issue could carry us back to an area of psychology, and where one other here has been suggesting be the formation of a new thread viz racial prejudice/(racist) stereotyping/attitude formation
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Being a male white sexist I can confirm that “Why white people so afraid of black men” are quite true. I’m not American, and we don’t have the same black/white issues where I com from as I believe you have in the U.S.
We do on the other hand, have a conflict issue whit Pakistani immigrants and other immigrants mostly whit Muslim and Hindu origin.
Men are dogs and dogs chase in flock. Men look at men in the same clan/tribe/race as brothers.
Dogs chase all game considered being tasteful, not regarding on race. I do think racism is in many ways a male thing: it’s about pussy control, or controlling the livestock in other words.
It can be accepted to share the stock whit other tribes if the sharing is fair, or alien males can be allowed harvest as an act of generosity and hospitality.
If you bend the line of generosity and hospitality, it will be conflict. If you move in to another tribe’s territory and harvest from their livestock, you must share yours.
Not all tribes understand this law of balance. They just want to get, not give because they, naturally, setting their own tribe higher and more worthy than other tribes, and therefore justify that they can take without giving because they think the others just are a piece of worthless shit to be used.
Pakistanis male thinks like this: “fuck the dirty white whore, marry the pure untouched Pakistanis girl”. Pakistanis keep their females inside, stones her if she even looks after a white male. Everyone knows that Pakistanis in general have extremely small penises.
White Americans males fear black Americans males of the same reasons as the Pakistanis in Scandinavia keep their females inside. Yes I do believe that black Americans have in general bigger dicks than white Americans. My reason for believing so is simple. Who wants a slave who can’t pull the plow? Today’s black Americans are descendants from the slaves, and therefore in general tall, big and strong by genes.
This belief is similar to the explanation why people from Brittan and Germany in general are so dam ugly, unfit and have bad teeth. When all the good gene material was out fighting a war and get them self killed, the crippled males at home had free homeruns whit the females.
If you go to Tanzania you find that people in general are small and low. In Tanzania porn are illegal, but still everyone is watching it on their phones or buy DVDs at the street. Most porn watched in Tanzania is white porn: white males penetrating white females. And as everyone knows males in porn are in general equipped with large sticks.
I often before went out clubbing whit my black wingmen, a fine bunch of young African Pat Bateman clones in the city of Dar es Salaam. If you white male in certain parts of the world, you attract certain young women like flypaper. That’s just the way it is: white smells USD. No kidding, no fun at all after a while, and very irritating.
Knowing the fact that I in fact am a constant broke white dickhead whit a very cocky attitude, my friends got a little bit jealous at me for always getting all the attention. I fired up the bad mood by systematically over time reminding them the fact that everyone knows: that whites have bigger dicks than blacks. Judged from the mood and the hurt and negative response I got, I’m sure I succeeded.
And let it be said, size does matter. A small stick in a bottomless well is just waist of energy. Then you may as well jump straight to the cigarettes.
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Lynn Gazis-Sax,
You wrote:
The one thing I can say for the penis size claim is that it’s less self-evidently false than the intelligence claim
This is quite false. There has been much more objective testing in the area of intelligence than there has been in the area of penis size, which is, as you have said, mostly self-reported. The question of race and penis size is still debatable. The question of race and intelligence is not. We know that the races vary in terms of intelligence. We don’t know why exactly, but the differences are measurable and enduring.
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M L said:
“Men are dogs and dogs chase in flock. Men look at men in the same clan/tribe/race as brothers.”
Yet World Wars 1 & 2 (to say the least) disprove that theory!
M L said:
“Not all tribes understand this law of balance. They just want to get, not give because they, naturally, setting their own tribe higher and more worthy than other tribes, and therefore justify that they can take without giving because they think the others just are a piece of worthless shit to be used.
Pakistanis male thinks like this: “fuck the dirty white whore, marry the pure untouched Pakistanis girl”. Pakistanis keep their females inside, stones her if she even looks after a white male. Everyone knows that Pakistanis in general have extremely small penises.”
How do you know that South Asian men have smaller peni in general!?
M L said:
“White Americans males fear black Americans males of the same reasons as the Pakistanis in Scandinavia keep their females inside. Yes I do believe that black Americans have in general bigger dicks than white Americans. My reason for believing so is simple. Who wants a slave who can’t pull the plow? Today’s black Americans are descendants from the slaves, and therefore in general tall, big and strong by genes.”
That’s assuming that the slaves were tall, big and strong!
M L said:
“This belief is similar to the explanation why people from Brittan and Germany in general are so dam ugly, unfit and have bad teeth. When all the good gene material was out fighting a war and get them self killed, the crippled males at home had free homeruns whit the females.”
How does being ugly, unfit and having bad teeth an indicator of “bad” genes!?
M L said:
“If you go to Tanzania you find that people in general are small and low. In Tanzania porn are illegal, but still everyone is watching it on their phones or buy DVDs at the street. Most porn watched in Tanzania is white porn: white males penetrating white females. And as everyone knows males in porn are in general equipped with large sticks.”
Do you have a point?
M L said:
“I often before went out clubbing whit my black wingmen, a fine bunch of young African Pat Bateman clones in the city of Dar es Salaam. If you white male in certain parts of the world, you attract certain young women like flypaper. That’s just the way it is: white smells USD. No kidding, no fun at all after a while, and very irritating.
Knowing the fact that I in fact am a constant broke white dickhead whit a very cocky attitude, my friends got a little bit jealous at me for always getting all the attention. I fired up the bad mood by systematically over time reminding them the fact that everyone knows: that whites have bigger dicks than blacks. Judged from the mood and the hurt and negative response I got, I’m sure I succeeded.”
Again, how do you know that white guys have bigger d***s than black guys!?
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M L said:
“Today’s black Americans are descendants from the slaves, and therefore in general tall, big and strong by genes.”
Not true. In America white men are on average taller than black men. Not by a huge amount, but still taller.
Also, since whites are taller and live longer, where do you get this idea that blacks are somehow stronger? Can you back that up with facts?
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ML,
Yes I do believe that black Americans have in general bigger dicks than white Americans. My reason for believing so is simple. Who wants a slave who can’t pull the plow? Today’s black Americans are descendants from the slaves, and therefore in general tall, big and strong by genes.
I’ve heard this reasoning before, but the problem is this: what does height/muscularity have to do with phallic size? Studies have shown, nothing at all. As well as anecdotal evidence from various groups of women.
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PR,
Having a genetic disease that I share with many different groups in the world and you tell me that intelligence is proven to be determined by race?
Intelligence may one day linked to a specific or groups of genes as my disease, but the genetic variability in humans always rules out race. Even, race is not scientific. There may be a group of people who possess similar characteristics, because for certain periods of time they have lived together and have shared chromosomes.
If you throw up test score and statistics that only proves a certain cultural approach to thinking. It is the difference in living in a world where, Buddha, Confucius or Christianity has had heavy influence in your belief system.
I remember the comparison of analogies on some test, where one was a colloquial saying that I had never heard of, living in the South. The only way that I would have known, would have been to have read some book in which I would have been able to garner the context. Not being exposed to that literature, would not be a test of my intelligence, but a reflection of my experience.
When people speak of the cultural biases of test, this is what they mean.
As there is more mass media, with shared cultural ideas and more people can afford the special tutoring you will see less differences in test taking.
I want you to know that I know that this is not considered an argument, because you have your statistics to back you up. I also know that some here don’t know what sarcasm is, unless they see emoticons or the fake HTML tag.
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It is interesting how intelligence and penis size are assumed to be inversely correlated – is there any hard science on that or is is just a White American folk belief? I am assuming the latter till I find out otherwise.
In any case, do not let RR derail this thread into his pet topic of black IQ. If you want to talk about that, go here:
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RR,
Not quite. Having lower intelligence scores on a biased intelligence test isn’t the same as having absolute lower intelligence. The Flynn effect (which knows no race) can tell you that.
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There has been much more objective testing in the area of intelligence than there has been in the area of penis size
There has been much more testing of a thing called IQ than there has of penis size. IQ certainly seems to be related to actual intelligence, but the results of IQ tests in other countries, as I’ve seen them reported, are screwy enough that they have to involve some kind of cross-cultural measuring bias, since it’s not plausible that a whole bunch of countries are inhabited mainly by people who are about as intelligent as borderline retarded people in this country, when the things they’re able to do don’t match the things that borderline retarded people are able to do. It might be the case that some of the difference in IQ involves actual difference in intelligence, presumably caused by different environments since the relative IQ rankings of some groups has changed over time, and the Flynn effect also suggests a certain malleability in group IQ scores inconsistent with their being particularly genetically fixed. But some of the difference has to be testing bias, because people with an IQ of 70 here can’t do the things that people with an IQ of 70 can do in other countries. In general, IQ differences between people in different countries don’t seem to mean the same thing as IQ differences between people of the same race and nationality who were raised in similar environments; the latter set of IQ differences seem to be more meaningful as a measure of intelligence than the former.
Penis size, on the other hand, is a much simpler thing to measure objectively, as in principle all you’d need to do is take a random sample and get out your tape measure. But in practice, all the measures are self-reports, hence not reliable, and the studies aren’t reliable.
So, actually, neither argument holds water, but for different reasons.
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Oops, sorry, I was writing that while you were making your post, abagond. I won’t talk any more about IQ.
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Aiyo,
“…black men are sterotyped as physcially superior and sexually agressive or whatever but lack a brain and mental capacity and self control and on the other end of the spectrum asian men are sterotypd as being super smart but lack sex appeal and are physically weak. Thus putting white men in the middle as “just right” and “normal”
You got it. Like my SO’s acquaintance said “Get an Asian man to engineer the design of your home, a black man to build it, and a white man to live in it!”
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ML- your post was hilarious!!
Anyway, doesnt anyone find the entire post focusing on penises ridiculous in the first place? I mean, what useful dialogue has it produced? Do black people conjecturing about white men’s penis fears do anything productive? Why are black men and women obsessed with who has a bigger dick? As if penis size equates to education, $, or quality of life. The post seems more like a jab at blacks than a meaningful dialogue about race.
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Abagond,
Didn’t mean to derail post, but I can’t let that sh*t stand. I am so tired of reading and hearing it.
You should have banned PR’s particular comment.
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@Tuesday
I don’t think the black women and men that have commented here are so obsessed with penis size. It’s the whole black buck sterotype that is dehumanizing to black men and women.
Like I mentioned in my post
…For black women back in slave days, it was seen as ok to rape them becasue they must be used to rough sex becasue of how well endowed black men supposedly are.
and here
Black men are sterotyped as physcially superior and sexually agressive or whatever but lack a brain and mental capacity and self control and on the other end of the spectrum asian men are sterotypd as being super smart but lack sex appeal and are physically weak. Thus putting white men in the middle as “just right” and “normal” becasue they are seen as sexual beings with self control and have intelligence but not asexual.
And as the black women have mentioned on the blog about who have dated white men or whatever said how they have been asked in one way or the another by white guys about black men penis size. Chek out The Roissy Sydrome: reading while white post. This Roissy dude wrote about having sex with a black woman and before the intercourse starts he starts thinking of black men penis and wonder if he will “measure up”
What straight man thinks of d**ks when they are about to have sex with a woman? Most likely a many with a mandigo race fetish that is also insecure.
Who is really obesessed?
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@ Tuesday:
Right, as Aiyo said it is WHITE MEN, not black people, who have this strange hang-up about black men’s penises.
It matters because, as the post argues, it helps to drive the racist fears that white people have about black men.
And, as you can see in these very comments, it is also used to push this picture of black men as lacking in intelligence. That in turn affects income and employment.
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I am sorry, but I don’t see any connection or correlation between IQ and penis size. lol That simply makes no sense. At all.
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Raphael
How wonderful and conveniently liberal someone without the facts says that white men and black men are relatively the same in sexual organ size. “Now that is a myth!”
Ah…revisionist history derailing.
ML
Being a male white sexist
Enough said.
*shakes head at Abagond*
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Reply to Vindicator, abagond, Natasha W, and Hathor.
Vindicator, seriously, first of all you don’t seem to know to much about European tribe mentality and ethnic and religious bounds. If you interested, a good start can be to read about The Battle of Kosovo in 1389, and work your way from there.
And
Vindicator said:
“How do you know that South Asian men have smaller peni in general!?”
Yes I been doing serious reliable research on the subject, I wrote my diploma on the subject. The method used was sharking. I found a random selection of 50 male South Asians and 50 male white, sneak up behind them and pulled down their pants while my coworker was filming. The result speaks for it self.
Vindicator said:
“Again, how do you know that white guys have bigger d***s than black guys!?”
I don’t, and that’s the whole point of it. But if you are interested in the data proving it, I’m sure Abagond can help you find some who at least prove that black d***s aren’t bigger then white.
Vindicator said:
“Do you have a point?”
Do you need everything in whit a spoon?
Abagond, Image is everything, beliefs is a powerful thing. I do not speak of facts.
Natasha W, take a male rat and a male elephant. Who has the biggest phallic size? You may right, but again I’m not talking about the true, I’m talking about myths and believes. You know what they say: big hands and big feet means big d***s.
I’m quite sure if someone really wants, they can statistically prove that claim, right. To be all up in statistics is more dangerous than base your racism on myths and beliefs, because then you have proof.
Hathor said:
“I also know that some here don’t know what sarcasm is, unless they see emoticons or the fake HTML tag.”
You dam right!
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Natasha W, take a male rat and a male elephant. Who has the biggest phallic size? You may right, but again I’m not talking about the true, I’m talking about myths and believes.
Okay, gotcha.
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Rereading the article sounds like Fannon’s mom did a great job of demeaning him before he left home to enter the war. With such a built in, ingrained bias is it any shock that he saw the world as skewed against black men and whites as anything other than reinforcing those stereotypes? Take a look into the deep pool of black self loathing before blaming the morally bankrupt white world for black america’s negative self image. How many black commentors do the same?
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100 Years of genocide includes not just German on Jew but: China, indonesia, burundi, turkey, ukraine, ussr, guatemala, nigeria, pakistan, cambodia, middle east, rwanda, sudan, etc – no race is an island of peace and love. Power, politics and extremism are bigger motivators than penile prowess, however there is a whole lot of systemic rape going along with the mutilations and murder right now in the African genocides- sad but true.
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And if his conscience was clear he would say he was “white as snow”>>>>
Hmmm maybe this is why he married a White woman, lol
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Abagond wrote:
And prostitutes will tell you that black men and white men are pretty much the same in bed.
DO YOU HAVE ANY EVIDENCE TO BACK THIS UP? I mean, have you interviewed prostitutes personally? I would trust the word of an experienced prostitute assuming she had the requisite experience with both black men and white men (that is a sample size in the hundreds at least).
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RR,
I have to LOL. There is an assumption here that prostitutes would sleep with anybody, and that isn’t always true.
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With regard to:
“And if his conscience was clear he would say he was “white as snow”>>>>
Hmmm maybe this is why he married a White woman, lol
What I have found interesting on this blog, there has been a lot of criticism of Fanon not based on the ‘truism’ of his theory/analysis, but rather from those adopting certain ‘eurocentric feminist’ (both White and Black)
Hmmm!!!
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Aiyo wrote:
It’s the whole black buck sterotype that is dehumanizing to black men and women.
I can’t speak for black women, but as a black man, I’m rather fond of the big black buck stereotype. I don’t think it is dehumanizing, especially if one doesn’t consider the dreaded “I” topic. Stereotypes have their upsides!
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With regard to:
Can you provide some insight RR, why are you so keen to establish that Black males have large genetalia…if this is your line of reasoning??
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OOOps multi-tasking agagin Abagond, please again can you modify appropriately…cheers
With regard to:
DO YOU HAVE ANY EVIDENCE TO BACK THIS UP? I mean, have you interviewed prostitutes personally? I would trust the word of an experienced prostitute assuming she had the requisite experience with both black men and white men (that is a sample size in the hundreds at least).
Can you provide some insight RR, why are you so keen to establish that Black males have large genetalia…if this is your line of reasoning??
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Not to worry, I have just seen a response from you, as I was asking my question:
“…as a black man, I’m rather fond of the big black buck stereotype. I don’t think it is dehumanizing, especially if one doesn’t consider the dreaded “I” topic. Stereotypes have their upsides”!
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What I have found interesting on this blog, there has been a lot of criticism of Fanon not based on the ‘truism’ of his theory/analysis, but rather from those adopting certain ‘eurocentric feminist’ (both White and Black)>>>
Please elaborate!
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There have been those who have been against Fanon because they believe ‘eurocentric feminist’ discourse that he is about arguing against interracial dating mariage/dating, which is more a reflection of their ‘mindset (ie pro-interracial dating)
What Fanon analyses is the ‘dysfunctional unconscious processes’ that brings about this process from his understanding as a psychiatrist.
However, for me whether Fanon is ‘guilty’ of the same processes, he observed in his own patients, I can only speculate??
Though what I can say for sure is that the words of Fanon can be used to prevent any individual from falling into this ‘dysfunctionality’. Or at the very least it can get someone in this ‘dysfunctionality’ to re-assess their position.
However, if what Fanon says is NOT valid, then none of the above in the last paragraph can be true or applied.
So hence the importance to study his words to see what relevance it has, if any??
Hope this has helped to clarify
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RR said:
“Abagond wrote:
And prostitutes will tell you that black men and white men are pretty much the same in bed.
DO YOU HAVE ANY EVIDENCE TO BACK THIS UP? I mean, have you interviewed prostitutes personally? I would trust the word of an experienced prostitute assuming she had the requisite experience with both black men and white men (that is a sample size in the hundreds at least).”
To which I could say: “Estimate is based on 10 or fewer sample cases”
Which appears to be the standard of proof for white racists when talking about black people, as we found out in the thread on black rape statistics.
But on a serious note, this post is based on what Fanon says in Chapter 6 of “Black Skin, White Masks”, as noted in the very first sentence of the post. I have not personally talked to hundreds of prostitutes about this matter.
Nor should I have to: if someone says “Black men are better in bed than white men”, the burden of proof is on them, not on me to prove them wrong. People say all kinds of racist stuff. I am not bound to believe them just because I cannot disprove them.
After all I could say, “RR sells drugs. Look at the nice car he has. There is no way, as a black man, he could afford a car like that through honest means.” And if you disagree I could just say, “DO YOU HAVE ANY EVIDENCE TO BACK THIS UP?”
Unlike you or M L, I do not believe that just because white people keep repeating something about black people that somehow it must be true.
You do not seem to have noticed this but White Americans are the last people on earth you should trust to get your picture of black people from. They are NOT OBJECTIVE but have MATERIAL AND MORAL INTERESTS in believing the worst. It is like war propaganda.
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In fact, Steven Levitt and Sudhir Alladi Venkatesh did an empirical study of street level prostitution in Chicago that included, among many other pricing factors analyzed, the prostitutes’ attitudes toward black, white, and Latino customers. The survey didn’t mention prostitutes citing any differences in penis size, just that they used different price negotiation strategies depending on the race of the customer, and that there were some differences in what acts tended to be requested most often.
(I feel a little weird being able to pull this item out of my memory so readily. I don’t surf the net looking to see what prostitutes think about black vs. white men, really I don’t; it’s just that this particular study got linked by a bunch of blogs I read because of its finding that street prostitutes in Chicago were way more likely to be hit up by cops for free sex than to be arrested by said cops.)
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J,
Well I would say Fanon’s words have little to no relevance to current psychiatry because psychoanalysis is not valid. Freud made a lot of contributions to the field (and many other disciplines evaluate things psychoanalytically), but you could pick choices out of a hat, and you’d be just about as valid as a psychoanalytic perspective.
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ALL stereotypes are dehumanizing. Even the so-called “positive” ones, like this mandingo one or the model minority one. It is the Three Bears Effect that Aiyo talked about. When the white man giveth he taketh away – and then some. In this case, the cost of having a larger penis in the white imagination – and of being “good at sports” too – is that you are seen as having less intelligence – EVEN IF you have a degree from a top university. It is a fool’s bargain.
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@RR
Whether a stereotype is negative or positive it is still dehumanizing, becasue it limits you. You may find the black buck stereotype so great and you may love it so much but do you like the black brute stereotype becasue it ties into the buck one too. “Black men ar bigger (positive) so we have to protect white women from them because they have no self control and will rape them (negative)
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Right, according to Fanon the black buck stereotype drives much of the fear that white people have of blacks. And it comes directly from seeing blacks as little better than animals. It is BASED ON dehumanizing blacks in the white mind.
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Dr. Phillipe Rushton
Back to Rushton, once again, so I’ll give my standard Rushton warning.
Rushton’s studies of comparative racial I.Q. have at least two MAJOR flaws.
In the first place, and most significantly, he doesn’t define race, simply presuming that it’s a given.
In the second, he has never performed anything like a statistically significant appraisal of I.Q.s.
Race is not a “given”: it is socially and not biologically defined. Here in Brazil, for example, many people will call themselves “white” who would be called “black” in the U.S. Rushton’s study of Brazil doesn’t take this into consideration at all – he simply presumes that the categories “black” and “white” are biologically stable across cultures. Thus, in Brazil, the biological mix which Rushton calls “black” has little to no genetic congruity with the mix called “black” in the U.S. Given that Rushton wants to prove that I.Q. is linked to “blackness”, this is a problem, for it turns out that both of his variables are independent.
Rushton is also notorious for “cherry-picking” his data. In fact, it looks very much like he hand-picks his study populations so that they conform to his preconcieved notions of race. This is a very common and historical problem with racialist biologists going back to Morgan and Galton.
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@Abagond
exactly my point, I read your post on the model minority sterotype that is put on Asians and how becasue of this sterotypes of Asians being so good at maths, science or whatever and they are so smart the sterotype mainly focuses on South Asians Indians (the most) and East Asians Chinese, Japanese and Koreans but the sterotypes also ignores the plight of South East Asians face and you said how they a re very likely to drop out of high school and all.
After seeing the documentary The Neo African America and how Black Africans/Carribeans/Latinos are becoming the new model minority which is another way to say to Native Black Americans “why can’t you Blacks be like these Blacks?”
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With regard to:
Well I would say Fanon’s words have little to no relevance to current psychiatry because psychoanalysis is not valid. Freud made a lot of contributions to the field (and many other disciplines evaluate things psychoanalytically), but you could pick choices out of a hat, and you’d be just about as valid as a psychoanalytic perspective.
I am not sure about Fanon’s or Freud’s analysis.
What I would say from a ‘Philosophy of Science’ and here I am specifically referring to the ‘Social Sciences’.
What sometimes happens is that ‘perspective(s)’ changes.
So for instance in Freud’s times the ‘unconscious’ was an important phenomena, possibly which he derived from the philosopher Schopanhaeur, and tSchopanhaeur via Indian philosophy/religion.
Today we no longer view or more accurately choose to focus on the ‘unconscious’ as being important as Freud time…A change of ’emphasis’ and ‘different’ perspective.
However, with regard to ‘choice of partner’, Fanon still has relevance since by any other name, it is an attempt to explain a phenomena by examining ‘deep-rooted’ forces.
Hope this make some sense
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With regard to:
ALL stereotypes are dehumanizing. Even the so-called “positive” ones, like this mandingo one or the model minority one. It is the Three Bears Effect that Aiyo talked about. When the white man giveth he taketh away – and then some. In this case, the cost of having a larger penis in the white imagination – and of being “good at sports” too – is that you are seen as having less intelligence – EVEN IF you have a degree from a top university. It is a fool’s bargain.
What is wrong with you Abagond, have you not heard that the stereotypes are a good thing ha ha ha ha ???
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With regard to:
“Well I would say Fanon’s words have little to no relevance to current psychiatry…”
Fanon was a political revolutionary attempting to revolutionise society as opposed to changing psychiatry.
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And again still on the same theme.
“Well I would say Fanon’s words have little to no relevance to current psychiatry because psychoanalysis is not valid”
With regard to psychoanaltic not being ‘valid’
The question that has to be asked is ‘valid to what’??
From a ‘Philosophy of Science’ and the ‘Scientific method’ there are ‘problems’ with psychoanalysis.
However, this is not the same as saying that ‘nothing meaningful’ can be gained from psychoanlasysis even today. Psychoanalysis has not yet been made redundant like the subject ‘phrenology’
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrenology
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abagond, you posted:
Why white people are so afraid of black men:
1.Black men are seen as being way less moral.
2.White men fear they will take white women from them.
Take it from this white guy, neither item concerns white guys.
On the moral issue, well, it’s hard to say how “moral” is defined here. But if it is with respect to honesty of a man’s intentions, then both races are probably about equal. However, the painfully high illegitimacy rate among blacks says race has an impact on outcomes of sexual relationships.
As for the “fear” that black men will take white women from white men, well, news flash — that’s not how things work.
We have reached a point in American life where enough interracial sex has occurred, where enough men and women have experimented with partners of other races for lots of people to talk intelligently about their experience. It is no longer fraught with the label of taboo.
Robert DeNiro, David Bowie and Tiger Woods come to mind.
The upshot? No matter what sexual realities exist, sex alone (good or not so good) rarely determines the future of any relationship.
Take the last one first:
White men think that black men have bigger penises. They think that once a white woman sleeps with a black man she will never want a white man again: if it is not for their size then it is because black men are so much better in bed.
None of this is based on fact.
Where do white men go to admit to this purported fear? To whom do they confide this supposed worry?
When it comes to sex, the differences between white and black women are minor. But it seems this topic attracts no interest.
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@J: With regard to psychoanaltic not being ‘valid’
The question that has to be asked is ‘valid to what’??
It proved not to work as well as a treatment method as the treatments that are in use now. For instance, at this time someone with depression would be treated by a combination of medication and cognitive behavioral therapy, and psychoanalysis wouldn’t be considered.
(This isn’t to say that what Fanon has to say about the influence of stereotypes wouldn’t still have truth in it, but someone coming out of a psychology department now wouldn’t be likely to use psychoanalytic terminology and categories to discuss how stereotypes operate.)
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Women in general are somewhat leary of men’s intentions whether the men are black, white, hispanic or asian especially when a man or group of men dress in a street style instead of professionally or bus casual. It has less to do with skin color nowadays than style. Black men and white men who look less likely to confront each other are far less threatening at face value.
Also Fanon’s experiences in Europe took place at a time when there was far fewer African men in Europe, of course women would be uncomfortable being approached. And, perhaps the men in Europe reinforced black buck stereotypes out of their own ignorance. No_slappz has a valid point that culturally we have moved on from the days of non-interracial dating and marriages.
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Thanks Lynn,
With regard to:
“the question that has to be asked is ‘valid to what’??
It proved not to work as well as a treatment method as the treatments that are in use now.”
The theory of psychoanalysis (of which there are many differing strands Freud, Jung etc) involves many other things apart from ‘therapy’/’counselling’. Notwithstanding that ‘psychiatry’ is also a part out-growth of psychoanalysis.
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With regard to:
(“This isn’t to say that what Fanon has to say about the influence of stereotypes wouldn’t still have truth in it, but someone coming out of a psychology department now wouldn’t be likely to use psychoanalytic terminology and categories to discuss how stereotypes operate”.)
Just to say the formation of ‘stereotypes’ is tied to the subject of ‘attitudes’ and is specifically a branch of Social Psychology.
and again
Psychoanalysis in the field of Psychology bears little or no relevance to the subject of ‘stereotypes’
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“Just to say the formation of ’stereotypes’ is tied to the subject of ‘attitudes’ and is specifically a branch of Social Psychology.”
Agreed. The part about what stereotypes white people hold about black people isn’t really something that Fanon gets from psychoanalysis.
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J,
To add on to what Lynn said, psychoanalysis is also invalid in that it is unreliable–you don’t get the same result everytime using psychoanalysis, which could potentially be dangerous. Think of it like going to one doctor who diagnoses you with the common cold, then seeing another who tells you that you have HIV.
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Psychoanalysis is only ‘invalid’, if one gets caught up in only ‘science’ with its power of ‘predictableness’ (ie cause and effect has the ability to establish ‘knowledge’.
Even the use of the word ‘invalid’ bespeaks of a criteria judged against the ‘natural sciences’
From a ‘Philosophy of Science’ perspective there are also a lot of things that are NOT clear cut and disputed in the natural sciences.
And to conclude with psychoanalysis and its invalidiy. Then it is not clear to me why there is a connection between ‘psychiatry’ and ‘psychoanalysis’, and psychiatrists is a thriving business in the States (as I am led to be believed)??
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J,
What connection between psychiatry and psychoanalysis are you talking about? Psychiatry is about prescribing medication for psychopathology, which is the opposite of the “talk” therapy promoted by Freud. Mostly, the business is thriving because the vast majority of medications are not prescribed by psychiatrists, but by people in the general medical sector.
I don’t know about psychoanalysis being judged against natural sciences–it’s mostly been compared against other paradigms of psychology (cognitive, behavioral, diathesis-stress), and it doesn’t hold up in terms of standardization, norms, efficacy, effectiveness, etc.
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Psychiatry
Although psychiatric training may require some training in psychotherapy, psychiatrists are not required to complete any personal psychotherapy. Nevertheless, many psychiatrists have, for personal reasons, pursued training in psychotherapy.
Historically, this training has most often been in the area of PSYCHOANALYSIS.
And with regard to:
“Psychiatry is about prescribing medication for psychopathology”
Psychiatry is much more than this and do not always prescribe drugs, though they have the remit to, whereas a trained psychologist cann since s/he is NOT trained in medicine (ie a qualified doctor)
With regard to:
” don’t know about psychoanalysis being judged against natural sciences–it’s mostly been compared against other paradigms of psychology (cognitive, behavioral, diathesis-stress), and it doesn’t hold up in terms of standardization, norms, efficacy, effectiveness, etc.”
The process of standardisations etc are aims to make psychology more ‘scientific’, just like in the ‘natural sciences’.
All this is covered in the Experimental and statistical side of Psychology and where this subject meets ‘Philosophy of Science’ (Philosophy).
Finally I would like to bring the conversation full circle Whether Fanon’s conclusion irrespective if it is derived from psychoanalyses, has relevance today??
Personally, I think it does…
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And here is the link (multi-tasking again, oh boy!!)
http://www.guidetopsychology.com/psypsy.htm
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J,
If by “scientific” you mean professionals are accountable for doing more than just talking out of their bums, then yes. That’s why psychoanalysis doesn’t work, because someone telling you your dreams mean you are obsessed with penises doesn’t make it true, and given that someone who’s studied the same thing will tell you something different, it’s unlikely that information is going to be helpful.
I also think your information is outdated. Psychiatrists are trained as doctors (to prescribe medicines), though drugs work best in combination with therapy (cognitive behavioral specifically). Most people who want to be psychiatrists study Psychology in undergrad, then go to medical school. The psychoanalytic model doesn’t prescribe drugs as the “solution” to psychopathology; it advocates intensive (several times a week for several years) “talk” therapy in which the goal is to get the person to “open up” to the therapist (which will presumably ease the problem s/he is dealing with).
Given what Abagond outlined in this chapter, I don’t think psychoanalysis is relevant, because he (Abagond, I wouldn’t know about Fanon) didn’t mention any of the psychosocial stages, which is the basis of Freud’s ideas. In fact, Fanon’s conclusions have some pretty explicit “social” components, which go beyond Freud’s strict focus on the mind and the subconscious.
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If you read the chapter, and I have posted the whole chapter here. You will see a psychoanalysis perspective – but more specifically Jungian ‘psychology (which is also a branch of psychoanalysis) to the cause and origins of White racism.
This is what the chapter 6 of Fanon’s BSWM is about, and Abagond is alluding to some of these points in his precis here…
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Lynn Gazis-Sax wrote:
I feel a little weird being able to pull this item out of my memory so readily.
Don’t feel bad about that. I remember that item also. I remember the paper stated that prostitutes would vary their price based on the prostitute’s perception of what the perspective John would pay. And I remember distinctly that black Johns were generally charged less.
Aiyo wrote:
Whether a stereotype is negative or positive it is still dehumanizing, because it limits you.
This doesn’t make any sense. I’m limited in any number of ways that don’t dehumanize me. I will never make it to the NBA. I have finally come to that realization, as painful as it is:) I feel limited by this reality, but I don’t feel dehumanized by it.
And stereotypes are not inherently dehumanizing, unless dehumanization is explicit in the stereotype. For instance, if one were to adhere to the following stereotype:
Blacks are animals
This would clearly be dehumanizing because the dehumanization is explicit in the stereotype. But the following stereotype:
Blacks are good at running
It is not dehumanizing because the humanity of blacks isn’t being questioned by the stereotype. Even a stereotype like:
Blacks are not very intelligent
It is not dehumanizing because our humanity is not being questioned. The stereotype is still insulting, but not dehumanizing. I don’t think it does anyone in the anti-racist camp good to over-exaggerate the influence of stereotypes. Hyperbole does not make your arguments any more convincing. Next, you will probably tell me is that stereotypes are a form of Fascism.
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J,
What’s your point?
If you gave a random sample of males (White and Black) a psychoanalytic test determined the “stage” they are in and level of obsession with penises, for instance, White and Black males wouldn’t significantly differ. (One big critique of psychoanalysis is that it pathologizes everything.) That doesn’t make Fanon’s conclusions necessarily untrue, but the problem of looking at things through a psychoanalytic perspective is that it offers no solutions (that actually work, anyway). The “psychoanalytic solution” would be to get all of these men into therapy, where they’d be urged to release their unconscious (probably homosexual) thoughts, which wouldn’t work, on a practical level, and wouldn’t work on a therapeutic level.
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Lets retrace what was said, it may be a long process but I think it may prove helpful…
1. Tragicmulattos
And if his conscience was clear he would say he was “white as snow”>>>>
Hmmm maybe this is why he married a White woman, lol
2. J
What I have found interesting on this blog, there has been a lot of criticism of Fanon not based on the ‘truism’ of his theory/analysis, but rather from those adopting certain ‘eurocentric feminist’ (both White and Black)
Hmmm!!!
3. Tragicmulattos
Please elaborate!!
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I have decided to split the post – because I am not a fan of long post generally ha ha ha
On we go
4. J
There have been those who have been against Fanon because they believe ‘eurocentric feminist’ discourse that he is about arguing against interracial dating mariage/dating, which is more a reflection of their ‘mindset (ie pro-interracial dating)
What Fanon analyses is the ‘dysfunctional unconscious processes’ that brings about this process from his understanding as a psychiatrist.
However, for me whether Fanon is ‘guilty’ of the same processes, he observed in his own patients, I can only speculate??
Though what I can say for sure is that the words of Fanon can be used to prevent any individual from falling into this ‘dysfunctionality’. Or at the very least it can get someone in this ‘dysfunctionality’ to re-assess their position.
However, if what Fanon says is NOT valid, then none of the above in the last paragraph can be true or applied.
So hence the importance to study his words to see what relevance it has, if any??
Hope this has helped to clarify
5. And this is where you come into the conversation for the first time
“J,
Well I would say Fanon’s words have little to no relevance to current psychiatry because psychoanalysis is not valid. Freud made a lot of contributions to the field (and many other disciplines evaluate things psychoanalytically), but you could pick choices out of a hat, and you’d be just about as valid as a psychoanalytic perspective”.
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With regard to 5, there are number of things which are not quite correct, and it places Fanon in the wrong context.
Fanon is an eclectic thinker he is a psychiatrist utilising psychoanalysis – and at the same time he is not because he changes it so as to accomodate race into the equation, something Western psychology/psychoanalyses did not do.
And so we can see that the point irrespective of the conflation of issues is that Fanon is relevant and valid.
Personally I would say not because he was trained as a psychiatrist, but because he is one of the greatest political revolutionist of the last century. This however, is a different topic, perhaps for another time.
Hope this has clarified
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What Fanon analyses is the ‘dysfunctional unconscious processes’ that brings about this process from his understanding as a psychiatrist.
I don’t see these processes as solely unconscious (which is why I would say if he is trying to speak from a psychoanalytic perspective, he’s tweaking it quite a bit, and seems to be coming from a more cognitive angle), because these beliefs are manifested in observable behaviors (white women shrinking away, etc.). In this case, White racism is too “obvious” to be hidden away in the depths of the psyche. If he were still alive, I would expect him to be a cognitive behavioral therapist, not a psychoanalytic one.
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I am not quite sure I understand…
here is a quick preamble
Fanon thesis (1952) predates cognitive psychology.
Fanon can only be a man of his times – Therefore if he was alive today bears no relevance
As for the issue of teh origins of racism, there is a cause and effect.
In Fanon’s situation:
1. Cause = ??
and
2. Effect = White racist behaviour.
Fanon attempts to explain 1. through the process of psychoanalysis amongst other things since he was a psychiatrist.
I am not sure there is anything else I can add. Apart from reiterating that it is important to read his words to see what relevance it has??
As I said, I belive it has much to say to us even today.
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J,
I don’t think we disagree (as far as I’m concerned, this conversation isn’t about relevance)–my point is that saying Fanon is using psychoanalysis to deconstruct White racism is an incorrect assessment of psychoanalysis. Unconscious processes would be, for instance, dreaming of a gun and someone telling you it means you are fantasizing about a penis. Thinking about Black male sexuality is a cognitive process–it’s not hidden behind other symbols. Which only matters in that psychoanalysis 1) overpathologizes and 2) excuses rational (meaning “conscious” behavior) by blaming something no one can measure.
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Just to say the example you used about penis and guns has already been commented upon Fanon in anearlier chapter.
Agabond was good enough to point out how Fanon departed from psychoanalysts in this respect.
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With regard to:
“Right, according to Fanon the black buck stereotype drives much of the fear that white people have of blacks. And it comes directly from seeing blacks as little better than animals. It is BASED ON dehumanizing blacks in the white mind”.
And it was also the source for the lynching and murdering of Black men even to the point that after lynching Whites would castrate some Black males.
This is something Fanon touches upon in a previous chapter ie the reason for lynchings.
On a psychoanalytic level, I presume ‘castration’ would represent the final ‘victory over the ‘id’ – in psychoanalytic terms the sex drive – and the Black race too.
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And to support the contention. this is a book I have seen many times in London but have never read it, or looked at it.
Hmmm…I wonder if some unconscious process at work. Be that as it may:
100 Years of Lynching by By Ralph Ginzburg
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=0km_frJZALIC&pg=PA226&lpg=PA226&dq=lynching+psychoanalysis&source=bl&ots=If_anY6OEU&sig=Ne-1qurJYo90rTWBrkuu0C8vNT8&hl=en&ei=gXrRS4bDD9L5_Ab5msDbDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAjgU#v=onepage&q&f=false
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Excerpts from PREFACE to 2nd Edition of:
WHITE RACISM: A Psychohistory by Joel Kovel
who also tries to understand the origins of White racism from a psychoanalytic perspective:
” Racism antecedes the notion of race, indeed, it generates the races;
· Racism supersedes the psychology of prejudice, indeed, it creates that psychology for its purposes;
· Racism evolves historically, and may be expected to appear in different phases in different epochs and locales;
· Racism cannot be legislated out of existence, since what is put into law always serves to legitimate the system which generates racism and is defined by it.
Let me put it another way, A society’s racism is not comprised by its degree of racial segregation, or how racially prejudiced the populace may be. These are manifestations of racism. But the racism itself is the tendency of a society to degrade and do violence to people on the basis of race, and by whatever mediations may exist for that purpose…
…Some may have been dismayed by these prescriptions…
There is, to repeat, nothing new about imperialism or cultural domination.
What is new in the modern world, and what has whitened racism, is technical rationalization. Not simply of production or culture, but of psyche as well. The split between ego and it, or between rationalization and desire, is distinctly historical.
It is the domination of nature carried inward, to “human nature” itself, now defined as an ego that hates its “animal” id.
The products of this inner fission react upon one another to produce Freud’s superego, and our bad conscience. And the bad conscience of the west reacts upon its dominated dark peoples to generate white racism.
Since, however, these processes are set going all at the same time, it is also the case that white racism generates the characteristic form of the western imperial psyche. That is why the id is ‘black’ and why superego hates the thing it is driven to save”.
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Here’s my post on Steve’s obsession with Obama and who he dated before marrying Michelle Obama:
Steve Sailer’s iSteve Blog: How many serious white girlfriends has Obama had?
Steve Sailer just can’t stand to see our First Family being happy. Poor Steve.
Steve Sailer’s iSteve Blog: How many serious white girlfriends has Obama had?: “As you’ll recall, one of the most stylized, fable-like sections of the President’s Dreams from My Father is the when Obama describes to his half sister Auma the serious girlfriend he had in New York (where he lived from 1981-1985), whom he dumped because she was white, and not only white but old money WASP. As several commenters have noted, the whole episode sounds like it was lifted from a white ethnic writer like Mario Puzo or Philip Roth.”
One man set this racist Sailer guy straight:
“Steve has got to be unique in the HBD community as a guy whose regular complaints about black men is that they don’t f*ck enough white women.
My personal preference would be for women to hold on to their virtue and remain more or less sexually innocent until they meet “the one” but even if Steve is a libertine (which I doubt he is) how strange is it that he’s so incessently hurt by black men who stick with black women? What in God’s name could possibly explain that far out perspective?
The fact that the nations first black (and even competant and intelligent even though he’s adoreed by Blacks!) president is married to a dark black woman is VERY VERY good and I really don’t get why Steve keeps looking this gift horse in the mouth. Just be happy and get on with it. It’s good for your daughter, my friend.”
This one is from Truth:
‘”even if Steve is a libertine (which I doubt he is) how strange is it that he’s so incessently hurt by black men who stick with black women? What in God’s name could possibly explain that far out perspective?”
Great observation. Take it from me though, not unusual; I would say that the majority of white males are angrier at a black man who does not date white women than one who does…but the thing that makes white guys want to fight is when you date an Asian. I could tell you some stores…
Truth said…
“Of course, I do recognize you as the guy who every now and then tries to rebut Steve’s finding with “you see everything through a racial prism, Mr. Sailer” and nothing else.”
What makes you think it’s always the same “guy.”
“Is it so strange that a half-white guy might be attracted to white women?”
Well Cordelia; is it so strange that a half-black guy might be attracted to black women, and got his wife pregnant twice through natural means?
“Does anybody know about GWB’s girlfriends? Or John Kerry? Why do you all find the silence on Obama so weird?”
Thank you for calling out racist Steve Sailer’s incessant obsession with Black men’s relationships. Contrary to media and some HBDers, overwhelming marjority of Black men are married to Black women period. It’s getting pathetic.
Posted by La Reyna at 3:28 PM
_________________________________________
What are your thoughts?
Reyna
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Racism works in very mysterious ways and sometimes you do have to use a psychoanalytic type reasoning to work out was is going on. For instance a Freudian slip from the unconcious etc.
I do not know much about Sailer, so I am not sure I might be able to do your question the appropriate justice.
Here goes anyhow
Is Sailer really concerned about who Obama dated? Or is his concern that there is a ‘Black man in the Whitehouse’?
If it is the latter then to justify his position he could now then ask, ‘How many White woman has Obama dated?’
If it is many, then his argument ‘fails’ and off he goes to find another, perhaps, ‘Is he a Christian?’
This process caries on until he can support the argument in his mind with the relevant ‘evident’.
I would aver that he is not concerned that he is married to a Black woman, since if he had chosen a White partner’. then there would have been another spurious form of ‘racist reasoning’.
In a way similar to what we have seen on another current thread here.
What do you think of this??
Cheers
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reyna, steve sailer is obsessed w/ the black p*n&s its as simple as that. he gets off on fantasizing about it…its just that simple
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this is steve sailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAVUGeFN-do&feature=related
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he probably has a little black male “real-doll,” that he plays with…
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He probably wishes it was him attracting all those black men but he is afraid to admit it. A bizarre man! He loves talking about genital size, testosterone and throws in IQ into the mix.
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If Sailer wants to have a sexual relationship with black men then I would be more than happy to point out some websites to him, all his repressed interracial homoerotic fantasies are clearly driving him to be bitter and obessessed little perv
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“According to science the African penis and the European penis are same size on average.”
Not so.
Let the women be the judge:
European (White man)
African (Black man)
http://s11.photobucket.com/user/K-PUYO/media/negraco.jpg.html
John Falcon would be an average guy in many countries of Africa.
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[…] African athletes having even smaller penises. If these two studies are any indication as well as this post, then black men are really no different from other […]
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