I have been working on a post on solutions to colourism with commenter Mynameismyname. As it turned out, Myname had by far the best ideas, so it has turned into a guest post by him:
1. Create a solid basis of ethnic pride. Have a precise and thorough knowledge of your ethnicity’s achievements as well as a history of where you come from.
Black History Month, Asian-Pacific American Island Month, Hispanic Heritage Month, etc. are just one month a year. That’s why it’s important to explore the history and achievements of your ethnicity (as well as others’) year round. Read books and watch films that document this history. Learn as much as you can because without knowledge of where you come from, you won’t be able to know where you’re going.
2. Stress the beauty of all people, regardless of shade, hair texture, race, etc.
We’re all beautiful in our own way. There is no real hierarchy of beauty nor should there be one since no one’s beauty is inherently better than another’s. It’s important to embrace and, at the very least, respect the vast variety of human appearance.
3. Be aware of your own prejudices and biases. Even if you don’t consciously display them they may still appear subconsciously. Try to evaluate the nucleus of these prejudices.
Living in a place like the Western world, where racial bigotry and racialized thinking is part of its foundation, it is hard not to absorb some kind of racial bias. Very few of us are immune, even if we don’t verbally express some of these thoughts. That’s why it’s important to get to the core of the prejudices that we possess. Try to figure out why you think the way you do. Only then can you move forward in trying to erase these ideas. If not, this pathology will not only fester but continue to get passed down.
4. Know that media images are not real. Most of the “beauty” you see portrayed on television is created.
The “beauty” you see in the media is not natural. It’s the hard, labored work of the best makeup technicians, hair specialists, image consultants, fashion stylists, plastic surgeons, photographers and airbrush software that money can buy. Knowing just how false “the standard of beauty” is can help a young girl, for example, know that “without the works” Beyonce or Eva Longoria are no more beautiful than she is.
5. Get to know yourself and focus on your good points. Try to develop a strong sense of self so that someone else’s negative attitudes and actions don’t make you doubt your self worth. While we all have our faults, try to focus on your strengths and try to make them even stronger.
Yes, none of us are perfect. But we all have our strengths. Try to accentuate them. Hone them and make them yours. If you know yourself and your selves, how can anyone else tear you down?
See also:
Great advice all around. But I don’t think you have to know what ethnicity you are, or that history, to be proud of yourself or your physical features. I think everything else is spot on though.
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This is a great post. But I don’t think it applies strictly to colourism.
On the other hand, knowing your ethnicity (if ethnicity means “race” here), is important. Because the more you know about a human group, the more you’ll realize there’s no one way to look (or behave) to truly belong to said group.
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With regard to solutions:
There are two aspects
1. The individual
and
2. Society
Personally and with the right information etc it is far easier to work on the individual rather than the society.
Even working on the individual has its own problems. Even some of the greatest Black minds have not been able to shake of the cancer of colourism and all that goes with it racism etc.
Personally I do not think that there has not been one individual who has been able to escape. All it is is that some individuals are relatively better at doing it than others
(ie escaping colorism etc)
Why does this sound like a religious sermon ha ha
Working for change on the societal change requires some form of ‘revolution’
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abagond, you wrote:
“1. Create a solid basis of ethnic pride.:
Whose job is this? This is one job for parents. Certainly not the government. Germany went overboard when Hitler took on this assignment.
You wrote:
“Have a precise and thorough knowledge of your ethnicity’s achievements as well as a history of where you come from.”
Where does this lead? It leads to fabrications and outright lies. Pro-black posters on black sites falsely claim blacks are responsible for most of the major developments of mankind.
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We, definitely as a people need to know our culture and accomplishments as a race.
Only because we do get from young subliminal messages through life, tv, books, magazines that Blacks are useless, inferior, stupid, poor, violent, unambtious, unattractive and second rate. (think of the Black Doll test)
There are too many out there that are ready to dismiss and condemn us as a people.
If all you hear is negative, negative, negative from young and on a regular basis, ethnic education and pride provides immunity and ammunition from these attacks.
Otherwise when people put you and your race down all the time, you will easily believe what they are saying an you will limit your achievements accordingly.
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abagond, you wrote:
“2. Stress the beauty of all people, regardless of shade, hair texture, race, etc.”
Get serious. We respond to appearances. We are attracted to some and not others. The basis for attraction or rejection is irrelevant.
Do you envision some world where every person finds every other person equally attractive?
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So what is your solution No_Slappz…
Or was Hereneith right when he observed that he is not quite sure why you stay on the board…cos you don’t offer any solutions??
Now’s your chance (he he he he)??
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Great ideas mynameismyname
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I don’t understand why no_slappz is still on this board. He has nothing constructive to say whatsoever.
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To No Slappz
“Get serious. We respond to appearances. We are attracted to some and not others. The basis for attraction or rejection is irrelevant.”
I think you missed the point, people should not base there attraction on race. Of course there are unattractive people in every race, but you shouldn’t think, oh that person is Asian so they are unattractive.
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Abagond
I don’t think that is necessarily the answer? There are commenters here that seem to have pride in themselves and understand their history, but still are bias against light skinned Black people. They paint their disposition and personality with a wide brush stroke. Light skinned people are arrogant, look down on darker skinned folk, get better jobs, marry better and are still in the house; this is what I discern reading some their comments.
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Thanks Lynette and B.R.! I really appreciate it.
Mira,
You’re right. These solutions are not only for eradicating colorism. They can used for eradicating racism as well.
Heathor,
Your question was not directed towards me but I think in regards to your comment, I think those who harbor animosity and resentment towards someone of another shade should look at solution #3. These people should really dig deep and question why they have that animosity and resentment. What is the source of such feelings? After that, they can work on overcoming such negative feelings and move on.
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La Reyna said:
I don’t understand why no_slappz is still on this board. He has nothing constructive to say whatsoever.
Menelik replies:
his reasoning is simple. The purpose is to DESTRUCT all that which is CONSTRUCTIVE!
Menelik Charles
London England
Ps La Reyna, I love your blog btw
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Excellent post, myname! I just wish people will take note. It seems that some people use this logic as a crutch, though.
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You see this all the time. The so-called beauties. And when these beauties go about Hollywood all dressed down and without make-up. It’s amazing how much they look like the regular people.
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Great post myname. #5 Is right on. Developing a strong sense of self is the key.
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1) Every ethnic group on the planet has as much to be ASHAMED for as it has to be proud of. Rather than building comfortable myths which change ethnic groups into sports teams which one should root for, why not encourage a thorough-goping review of HISTORY and of how your ethnic group has interacted with others?
Oh, by the way, “white” is also an ethnic group (or a collection of ethnic groups, depending on how you cut it). Are you SURE you want to encourage white pride? Or is this “ethnic pride” thing good when only some ethnic groups engage in it.
2) This sounds very good.
3) Fine, but one of the BIGGEST set of prejudices and biases the people who post here display have to do with being American and not black, white, or brown.
4) Correct.
5) Self worth, huh? Well, “America loves a winner”, as George Patton reputedly said…
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I find it interesting how most of the white commenters take issue with #1.
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I completely agree with Grenda (not the first time). She said in part:
“There are too many out there that are ready to dismiss and condemn us as a people.
If all you hear is negative, negative, negative from young and on a regular basis, ethnic education and pride provides immunity and ammunition from these attacks.
Otherwise when people put you and your race down all the time, you will easily believe what they are saying an you will limit your achievements accordingly.”
This is why #1 is so important.
No one, other than the whites on this thread, ever said anything about making up lies. That is a straw man argument.
Whites in America do not need #1 because it is already being done for them, partly paid for by my own taxes – to the harm of my own children.
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Thanks Abagond. I think we think alike in alot of respects
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I find it interesting how most of the white commenters take issue with #1.
I think you can figure out why, Abagond.
#1 postulates ethnic pride. Do you REALLY want white people cultivating ethnic pride?
Because seriously, man: that’s an all or nothing proposition. You can’t tell only some ethnic groups that they should be proud well asking others to be ashamed.
Me, personally, I can’t see any good ethnic pride has ever done anyone, period.
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Whites do not need #1 because it is already being done for them, partly paid for by my own taxes – to the harm of my own children.
It’s not a question of whether or not they need it. It’s a question of how are you going to ask some groups to do it and others not. A white supremacist would say “Oh, OK then. You have no problem with ethnic pride: you just have problems with paying for it. Great. How about using black taxes to pay for black ethnic pride celebrations then and white taxes will pay for white ethnic pride celebrations?”
If you’re talking about cultivating ethnic pride, Abagond, blacks in the long run lose because the very system of race/ethnicity itself is based upon white supremacist concepts.
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No one, other than the whites on this thread, ever said anything about making up lies. That is a straw man argument.
Who said “lies”? I said “myths”. Ain’t the same thing at all.
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Lie = intentional mistruth
Myth = re-reading of facts which emphasizes some and de-emphasizes others in order to construct a story with a politically or culturally useful moral.
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There is no real hierarchy of beauty nor should there be one since no one’s beauty is inherently better than another’s.
You have countless posts with beauty tops, and you objectify women all the time on this blog. I hope you realize that.
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Aladdine:
1. This is a guest post, so please do not blame my practices on my guest. I am sure if he had a blog he would run it quite a bit differently.
2. In all those posts I made it clear that it is merely my opinion. I hardly expect most people to agree.
3. I have also stated that there are beautiful women of every race and country. I have my preferences, of course, but a woman can go against all of my preferences and still be beautiful. Beauty is not something that can be broken down into parts like a car.
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Beauty is not something that can be broken down into parts like a car.
Complete agreement.
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Well , I dont know about everyone else, but , I think I get what mynameismyname means by ethnic pride, and for a white person to have it.
Most real prejudice from white people comes from insecurity , fear of those different , and self hate and therefor they have a false ethnic pride, not a real ethnic pride.
Where white ethinic pride is already pushed on us, a lot of it is based on false ethnic pride. If someone wants to have real ethnic pride and real self knowledge, they have to redicect their ethnic history, be able to recognise the real negative and the real positive.
Where redicecting white history will find lots of negatives, any one who thinks there are no white positives better not turn on the lights in their apartments and houses tonight, for starters.
Only a person who really loves the skin they are in can truly receive other races and interact on an equal basis.
Racists hate or are insecure with the skin they are in , or they wouldnt be so threatened by those differant.
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Thad:
“If you’re talking about cultivating ethnic pride, Abagond, blacks in the long run lose because the very system of race/ethnicity itself is based upon white supremacist concepts.”
LOL. I see what you are saying. The trouble is, if you are not white but try to live in a white racist society without that pride then you are going to get screwed up – self doubt at the least if not self hatred.
Second, if White Americans had a true knowledge of their history everyone would be better off. They have plenty to be proud of – but they also have to see and understand that they are merely human and have all the human failings they see so clearly in others.
There are two kinds of pride:
1. Positive pride where you are proud of the good things you have done. That is healthy.
2. Negative pride where you cannot feel good about yourself without putting others down. That is not healthy.
There is nothing wrong with healthy white pride, but everything wrong with negative white pride, which lies at the heart of white racism.
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What the hel, is the difference between “false” and “real” ethnic pride, pray tell?
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The trouble is, if you are not white but try to live in a white racist society without that pride then you are going to get screwed up – self doubt at the least if not self hatred.
Sure. But why does said pride have to be ethnic? And note this definition of positive pride you posit:
Positive pride where you are proud of the good things you have done. That is healthy.
“You”, Abagond. You. Not some imagined ancestor.
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Personally I think tehre’ is something inherent where individuals usually take ‘pride’ in themselves and/or the group they are in.
Obviously the ‘groups’ are constructed by society.
What can be said using a general analysis’ a group that goes around conquering’ in the name of their tribe (I am not sure why my mind thinks of the bible) cannot be a ‘un-healthy’ pride.
A group that is ‘benevolent’ as the Native Americans were reputedly to the Pilgrim Fathers could be said to be a ‘healthy’ pride in nation, ethnicity and/or even race.
From an African centred perspective ‘White pride’ is viewed as something ‘excessive’. Most would not have a problem with the pride but rather teh excessiveness thereof.
And when looking back into history, only two other groups the Aryans of India and the Jews as related to the stories in the bible reach this ‘excessiveness’.
I am not quite sure about the negation of things like race, ethnic/religious pride etc.
I can understand that these are often considered to be
the origins (ie aietology) of the problem. Rather – here I am sounding like a psychoanalyst ha ha here think Fanon – I believe these are the ‘symptoms’.
So doing away with these will not necessarily bring humanity any closer together. Since some other
form of ‘difference’ will be created by the human mind whether imagined or real…
Moving on one thing about this post about solutions is if real concrete examples were used, of which there are many:
Egypt – as suggested by the historian Chancellor D. Williams
Haitian Revolution – Jacob Carruthers and to a lesser extent CLR James
South Africa under Apartheid
And even in the U.S with the ‘Blue Vein Society’
to gain a better understanding of the pitfalls of the subject
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I am not quite sure about the negation of things like race, ethnic/religious pride etc.
Who’s negating? I’m asking a much more basic question: what good – concretely and provably – has any of this “pride” done?
I think it ironic that Abagond councils intellectual humility and ethnic pride. Gilroy would have a field day with that, boy. Talk about your recipes for incipient fascism…!
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As for “ethnic pride”… To me (and in Europe generally), “ethnic” doesn’t equals “race” (or non-white race), so the whole “ethnic pride” thing is different.
And yes, I do believe we should all know as much as we can about our group, as well as other groups (especially the “enemy” ones), in order to understand what’s going on.
But “ethnic pride” doesn’t sound good to me. Not because it’s a bad thing, but because I believe you can only be proud about your own achievements, not the things that are out of your control. You didn’t choose your race (ethnicity). Then how could you be proud of it?
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However, for a people :
“who have been robbed of their land, language religion, culture and as result some of us even lost our mind as the Public Enemy song goes from Khalid Muhamamd
Ethnic pride or any delineation you want to call it is very important.
I think those who are not in a position of losing their ethnic pride – or any other adjective which you so choose to use- obviously would find it strange thi sstress of emphasis.
With regard to ‘pride’ in the group, if you look at the past you will see that there different ‘tribal’ groups with their own respective ‘tribal gods’ to delineate ‘identity’ and also ‘difference’ as well as ‘pride’ (if I can use that term)
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I do think “pride” here actually means “identity”.
Identity (both individual and collective) is very, very important for every human being. We all have our different identities.
But I don’t think it’s ok to call that “pride”.
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Identity wll eventually lead to a form of ‘pride’ because when you form an ‘identity’…there has to be an ‘outgroup’ which you identify yourself against
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Of course (one of the reasons why I try my best to stay out of collective identities… It doesn’t work all the time, but I’m trying).
However, I do think identity and pride is not the same, and it should not be the same. Just because you believe you belong to a group and you feel good in said group doesn’t mean you should be proud of it. Yes, I know it’s hard to stay out of it, but it’s not the same.
Plus, what does “ethnic pride” really mean (in western sense of the word). As far as I can tell, “ethnic” in America basically means “non-white”. Or non-anglo white. I must admit I don’t get the meaning of the word ethnos as “race”.
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Who is more guilty of colorism? Black men or Black women?
I’m not going to bother answering since to me it is obvious which group is at greater fault and which group keeps perpetuating the myth that closeness to White standards of beauty are better. Just watch some hip hop/rap videos and you will get the picture.
The answer — challenge those who make silly statements like “she has good hair” or “light skinned women are prettier”, etc. Make it clear that such comments will not be tolerated in your presence because they are racist and demeaning.
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I have to side with Thad on point 1. Race is already emphasized to an unhealthy degree. What if one delves into one’s racial (ie familial) history and determines that his race is coming up short. What is one supposed to do with THAT?!!
Thad wrote:
“what good – concretely and provably – has any of this “pride” done?”
It all depends on how you define “good”. The nation states of the world were created out of conquest and racial/ethnic pride. Racial/ethnic pride is what makes nations cohere. We may not like this fact, but it is a fact nonetheless. Fancy egalitarian theories about the rights of man is not what make men unite with other men to face a common foe. Blood ties are a common motivating force in working for the common good.
Fine, but one of the BIGGEST set of prejudices and biases the people who post here display have to do with being American and not black, white, or brown.
But this is probably a good thing. At least people of various races are uniting around something. My hope is that nationalism can trump racialism. It is a stretch, but maybe… Sailer calls this “Citizenism”:
Citizenism calls upon Americans to favor the well-being, even at some cost to ourselves, of our current fellow citizens over that of foreigners and internal factions. Among American citizens, it calls for individuals to be treated equally by the state, no matter what their race.
The citizenist sees little need for politically correct browbeating. Today’s omnipresent demand to lie about social realities in the name of “celebrating diversity” becomes ethically irrelevant under citizenism, where the duty toward patriotic solidarity means that the old saying “he’s a son of a bitch, but he’s our son of a bitch” turns into a moral precept.
2 and 3 are capital ideas, but will not minimize color prejudice. They could even heighten prejudice.
4 is a complete non-starter. Madison Avenue has its creations, but what created Madison Avenue? The media, more than creating images out of whole cloth merely enhance the biases present among the American populace. I don’t need Madison avenue to tell me that the girl down the street is beautiful, especially if she doesn’t wear make-up.
5 is good.
“You”, Abagond. You. Not some imagined ancestor.
You are slipping Thad. Obviously, if ethnicity is related to ancestry, then race is a familial concept. I’m glad you have finally come around:)
Abagond wrote:
“Second, if White Americans had a true knowledge of their history everyone would be better off. They have plenty to be proud of – but they also have to see and understand that they are merely human and have all the human failings they see so clearly in others.
What makes you think this isn’t the case? Outside of hardcore white supremacists (a miniscule number of people), whites do see themselves as having human failings. I have yet to meet a white person who views whites as gods. The problem, as I see it, is that many whites feel they are being blamed for the problems of blacks and are made to feel responsible for blacks, as if blacks are children. They resent it, understandably.
I would add two more entries to your list:
1) Christian faith.
Regardless of our racial differences, we are all children of God. We can unite around that.
2) Limited immigration.
Foreigners often have retrograde ideas regarding race and color. Do we really need that? I don’t think so.
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Ó Dochartaigh, you wrote:
“I think you missed the point, people should not base there attraction on race.”
First, take note of these two words: THEIR and THERE.
Second, based on comments at this site, those most concerned with Race and Attractiveness are those who say they are black.
You wrote:
“Of course there are unattractive people in every race, but you shouldn’t think, oh that person is Asian so they are unattractive.”
Did anyone disagree with your preceding statement? I doubt it.
Thus, the only important question to answer is the one about what factors lead to unattractiveness? And, conversely, what factors are present in attractive people?
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Patricia,
You are a women after my own heart! Which sex is more guilty of colorism? I’m not sure. Both black men and black women have their colorist biases, which seem to be universal among the countries of the world. Black men, like most men, prefer their women lighter than themselves. Black women, like most women, prefer their men to be darker than themselves. Obviously, this is not a hard and fast rule. There are lots of light-skinned men with dark women, but the trends are clearly discernable. How do we end colorism? Can we start by ending immigration?
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patricia kayden, you wrote:
“The answer — challenge those who make silly statements like “she has good hair” or “light skinned women are prettier”, etc.”
Challenge? Why? You’re attempting to set a single official, government-sanctioned standard for prettiness.
I happen to like dark hair — black hair. But some guys love blonde hair. What of it? Some guys love a woman with a tan. Others go for milk-white skin. Who’s to say?
You wrote:
“Make it clear that such comments will not be tolerated in your presence because they are racist and demeaning.”
It appears that once again, the insecurities of women are raging.
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To No Slappz
“Get serious. We respond to appearances. We are attracted to some and not others. The basis for attraction or rejection is irrelevant.
Do you envision some world where every person finds every other person equally attractive?”
First, Take note that you are being anal, THERE; I said it.
Second, What is the point of even leaving a comment and arguing, if your not going to give a solution to the problem? Let me guess, it’s because Obama is a Muslim lol.
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Patricia,
You should challenge people both ways. The next time you hear “light women think they’re better”, challenge that as well. It must be done both ways.
There is a nine page manifesto from a hate filled woman basically degrading light women. Naming the light skinned women who are “ugly”. She even said that light skinned women are less intelligent and less ambitous. Nine pages!!
Colorism must be challenged – from every angle.
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Let’s face it Colorism is never gonna go away. There been thousands of books on this tire topic and it gives no answer. Someone ask who more guilty Black men or Women. Both are guilty.
It’s all about favortism really. To end this topic is simple get over it. I don’t understand the Whole prefer Light skin Blacks= Colorstuck but prefer Dark Skin Blacks= Great.
See I could understand If a person of Dark Skin tone always had this Black pride was proud and all then I could see why people say prefering Dark Skin means you got great Black love but this is not the case. Because it usual Dark Skin Black People that prefer Light Skin Black People.
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Colorism must be challenged – from every angle
I agreed.
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Or was Hereneith right when he observed that he is not quite sure why you stay on the board…cos you don’t offer any solutions??
I am a woman not a man. No, he doesn’t have any solutions, just a laundry list of problems.
“2. Stress the beauty of all people, regardless of shade, hair texture, race, etc.”
Get serious. We respond to appearances. We are attracted to some and not others. The basis for attraction or rejection is irrelevant.
Do you envision some world where every person finds every other person equally attractive?
Yes, then I can marry Shaft, Woody Strode and the million of other men out there!
Ó Dochartaigh, you wrote:
“I think you missed the point, people should not base there attraction on race.”
First, take note of these two words: THEIR and THERE.
Huh?
Second, based on comments at this site, those most concerned with Race and Attractiveness are those who say they are black.
Based on your comments you do not read or comprehend particular topics , hence, you do not know what you are talking about. This is a post about colourism, yet you do not offer any solutions, only comments which have little or nothing, hell, nothing to do with this topic.
“Of course there are unattractive people in every race, but you shouldn’t think, oh that person is Asian so they are unattractive.”
Did anyone disagree with your preceding statement? I doubt it.
So you agree with that statement! You can’t even come right out and say so!
Thus, the only important question to answer is the one about what factors lead to unattractiveness? And, conversely, what factors are present in attractive people?
No. The only question to answer how to combat colourism, not what is considered attractive or not attractive. That is based upon each individual and is not the topic of this post. There have been other posts which address this.
“The answer — challenge those who make silly statements like “she has good hair” or “light skinned women are prettier”, etc.”
Challenge? Why? You’re attempting to set a single official, government-sanctioned standard for prettiness.
Again you misunderstand. She is speaking on an individual basis when colourism arises. She is not demanding a certain standard for looks. That is your take on it, you sound paranoid.
How do we end colorism? Can we start by ending immigration?
How will ending immigration combat and eventually stop colourism?
I happen to like dark hair — black hair. But some guys love blonde hair. What of it? Some guys love a woman with a tan. Others go for milk-white skin. Who’s to say?
What of it indeed? This isn’t a post about people’s physical preferences in potential/current paramours. Again, it is about colourism which, permeates many people’s lives and by extension society.
“Make it clear that such comments will not be tolerated in your presence because they are racist and demeaning.”
It appears that once again, the insecurities of women are raging.
Not only are you racist and Islamophobic, you can now add sexism to your list of ‘gems’.
Again for the umpteenth time, this is not about women’s insecurities, attracting a date on a Friday night or any thing else of that nature, although some of these thing factor into the equation. This post is about colourism, it’s deleterious effects and how to combat it. I don’t know what you are, gender wise, ethnicity or what have you, but this effects many racialized people’s lives. You fail to understand this and put it down to romance or what people find attractive. You are delusional.
First, Take note that you are being anal, THERE; I said it.
An understatement but someone had to say it, thanks
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Because it usual Dark Skin Black People that prefer Light Skin Black People.
This is not always true. I am a dark skinned black woman who do not have a preference for light skinned black men. Yes I know some dark skin blacks who have a preference for lighter skin but not all. Most of the dark skinned women in my family are married to darkskinned men. My first marriage was to a dark skinned black man. Three out of my five brothers who are dark married darkskinned women. When Im out and about I see darkskinned couples together all the time. I think its more of the younger generation of dark skinned black men who may have this preference.
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With regard to:
Who’s negating? I’m asking a much more basic question: what good – concretely and provably – has any of this “pride” done?
Well just take a look at the Western world ascendency and the plight of the rest of the world. It is clear it has done the Western world a lot of good , if not then why have they not chosen to relinquish any of its power??
And we can carry this same line of reasoning throughout
history…
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I agreed with you Leaveumthinking on seeing Dark skinned couples all the time. But you got to admit that some Dark Skin folks got am insecurity about Light Skin folks.
I remember my late Grandfather who was Light skin telling me how insecure Dark skin Grandma was around Light skin women. They had two daughters One Light other Dark. She always excuse my Grandad of favoring my mother who was the light skin one and he admit he did because my grandma treating her like my grandfathers mistress lol instead of a daughter and spoil my Aunt. She got around telling how Light Skin people think they better and what not. I ask her why she marry my Bright Grandad she said oh because “Dark Skin men lusts after Light Skin girls” And she was not trying to deal with it. What stood out was the Lust word instead of prefer,like,love she use the word LUST.
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Herneith wrote:
“How will ending immigration combat and eventually stop colourism?”
It combats colorism (and racism) by limiting the number of people with racist/colorist views from entering the country. Currently, most of the immigrants that come to America come from countries with backward views on race and color. Indian views are really twisted. Central and South Americans (especially Brazilians) also have retrograde views with respect to race. Hypodescent has served American blacks relatively well. We don’t need foreigners coming here rocking the racial boat with their berserk views on race. Eliminating immigration will not end racism/colorism, but an immigration moratorium would make the problems associated with race less bad.
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* around
* meant to say Nanny was 80 something yrs old.
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Ó Dochartaigh, you wrote:
“First, Take note that you are being anal, THERE; I said it.”
Wow, since writing your attempted zinger, have you come to understand its screaming irony? Here on a site that is devoted to parsing and hair-splitting of every element of how race is interpreted, right down to the nuances of interpersonal responses to skin tones, vocal tones, hair tones, word usage, eyeball movements, religious contradictions and grammar, YOU respond to the apparent embarrassment of learning about your own spelling deficiency by dodging your error.
That’s funny. And it dumps you into the camp of people who have trouble admitting to their own foibles.
You wrote:
“Second, What is the point of even leaving a comment and arguing, if your not going to give a solution to the problem?”
A solution to human emotional insecurity? That’s tough. A lot of people have earned Phds attempting to answer this one.
Let’s go with something simple. When it comes to looks, some people have all the luck. A few people are blessed with superb genes and if they treat themselves right, the evidence of their good genes is visible for decades.
For those less, lucky, it is always possible to improve. Eat right, get some regular exercise, do not smoke and drink very little. Stay away from recreational drugs.
Food-wise, eat as little flour and as little sugar as possible. Eat lots of fresh fruits and vegetables. Cut back on the red meat. Go for chicken and fish. Exercise — a half-hour a day, four days a week. Jogging is almost free.
With respect to everyone else in the world — reduce your expectations. Today, ignorance is as powerful as it ever has been. Perhaps moreso since the mantra of most parents for the last generation or two has been to praise every child for his brilliance, even if the child is a mere 5-watt bulb.
Clearly many people here want to create the International Thought Police to expunge from the heads of everyone all the thoughts that trouble the architects of the Black Utopia.
Sorry. Not happening.
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RR… *facepalm*. Colorism is not the fault of immigrants. Blacks had color concerns way before the issue of immigration was an “issue,” so ending immigration is not a solution to colorism, nor will it make it “less bad.” Lol. Try again at shifting the blame.
mynameismyname, great post! I agree with number five wholeheartedly. I think that learning how to work with certain traits and features will help to improve self-esteem and self-worth, which should in turn decrease the likelihood of spreading colorist views. In many cases America has a “one size fits all,” model, but finding out what works with and enhances one’s own complexion, hair texture, etc, rather than forcing it to fit this mould, should increase self-esteem and pride in oneself.
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Abagond wrote:
“Second, if White Americans had a true knowledge of their history everyone would be better off.”
I see. Obviously you are suggesting that too few whites feel the guilt you believe they should feel as a result of activities in which their forebears were involved hundreds of years ago.
Sorry, we whites do not suffer from inter-generational guilt. Apparently the same is true for blacks, but you refuse to admit it.
I’m still waiting for OJ Simpson’s kids to demand their father admit to killing their mother while revealing their own responsibility for her murder. But no, it appears that is not to happen.
You wrote:
“They have plenty to be proud of – but they also have to see and understand that they are merely human and have all the human failings they see so clearly in others.”
And here we are, in the deep waters of black insecurities.
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rr, you wrote:
“We don’t need foreigners coming here rocking the racial boat with their berserk views on race.”
Where were you when Hitler called?
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@Leaveumthinking
Great post.
The solution to colorism is love yourself and not give a damn about what others think about you.
I agreed.
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Natasha W,
You wrote:
“Colorism is not the fault of immigrants. Blacks had color concerns way before the issue of immigration was an “issue,” so ending immigration is not a solution to colorism, nor will it make it “less bad.”
Please read my post accurately. I never said immigrants were responsible for colorism. I believe that colorism is a universal state of affairs. I said immigrants make the problem worse because many of them have retrograde views regarding race and/or color. Importing fewer people with such views will at least not worsen the situation.
no_slappz,
I’m not sure what point you were making with the Hitler remark. If you are implying that I am a Neo-Nazi or some such creature, then you are mistaken. I believe that we have enough immigrants in the US. Immigrants worsen existing problems, including those problems associated with race.
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Yeah, Leaveumthinking, thanks for sharing.
I dont think white people really understanding facing the negative things in their history has nothing to do with guilt.Its about looking back , understanding what was wrong and trying to ackowledge it enough to either right the wrongs or dont do it again.
You can look back at segregation and know its wrong, and, try to right those wrongs.And some white people tried to do that and put laws on the books,along with black people fighting those wrongs.
Too many white people can look back in American history and look at say, government officials and real estate people colaborating to create white flight and therefor ghettos came into existance. They know that is wrong, yet do nothing about it, or even belittle people from the ghetto.
This also relates to false white ethnic pride and real white ethnic pride.Real white ethnic pride can look at those things and want to change it. Look at Katrina, I wont even talk about who is to blame, but, what was obvious is that people who are on the lower rung of society werent able to have cars or credit cards to get out of town, and, most were black Americans. But , no one still really wants to address that issue as black unemployment is close to 50 percent. False white ethnic pride doesnt really want to ackowledge these problems. Real white ethnic pride would recognise these wrongs and try to address them.
It has nothing to do with guilt.
Many black and white people can only argue about issues in the USA as if its only black and white, their false ethnic pride cant even acknowledge the 300 pound gorilla sitting in the living room, the hispanic population that is around 30 percent of the population.
Real ethnic pride isnt about feeling superior, its about being humble enough to want to do better in relationships with other ethnic groups.
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RR, I knew what you were saying and I still think it is BS. Make the problem worse for who? Blacks? Or for themselves? Or for everyone? And how will one screen for people with such views? Or are you assuming all immigrants have such views?
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rr, you wrote:
“I’m not sure what point you were making with the Hitler remark. If you are implying that I am a Neo-Nazi or some such creature, then you are mistaken.”
I am implying nothing — I am awarding you the gold medal for Clueless Racism. Based on your statements, Hitler would have given you a top job in the Department of Extermination.
You wrote:
“I believe that we have enough immigrants in the US. Immigrants worsen existing problems, including those problems associated with race.”
You can believe whatever you want. But even if the US were to change its immigration laws, there is no way to bar the door against people with thoughts that bother you.
The immigration laws worth changing are those favoring people with no assets at the expense of those with college educations. We need to expand the H-1B visa program to increase the arrival of engineers and others who are high-quality human capital.
Meanwhile, we need a guest-worker program.
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Natasha W,
Obviously, it would make the problem worse for blacks, which means, in the US, it would ultimately become everyone’s problem, to varying degrees. Screening of immigrants for racist/colorist views is not reasonable. I am in favor of ending ALL immigration, thus eliminating the need to screen. We have enough immigrants to last us another 200 years.
Also, it is possible to for you to state why you think my plan is BS? I mean, could you actually construct an argument against it? Is this too much to ask, or are you reacting with your gut again?
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Oh, there’s the crux of the matter — you are against immigration. I see. Nothing else to say here. I don’t debate with “Blame it on the immigrants” people. It’s just futile.
I see you’re reacting with your usual “Foreigners are no better/worse than Americans” spiel.
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Thanks, Natasha!
In regards to some prior comments, I think a debate over which gender prepuates colorism more is futile. Colorism and racism (which are really one in the same IMO) knows no gender.
To counterpoint what one poster said above:
In my experiences, light skinned blacks, male and female, tend to “prefer” or at least wind up with another black who are significantly darker. Some of that is nature. The vast majority of blacks are dark so the odds are in that favor. But some of that also displays a clear preference. For instance, Almost all of the light skinned black women I’ve known made it be known that they their desired a man who was darker than them.
The commentary above may seem silly in light of this post’s aim but I did want to add my two cents there.
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Natasha W,
Of course I am against immigration. Colorism is just another area in which the negative impact of immigration manifests itself. Employment is another. It seems to me that you are incapable of viewing any issue objectively if it is dear to you.
The crux of the matter is you don’t do debate. You do “Heart”. You do “Hurt”. You do “Feelings”. That’s cool. You are a woman. But don’t pretend that you debate anything.
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How sexist!
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^^^
Sorry for the typos in the above comment.
I agree 100% with the poster who added another solution:
Challenge those who express colorist views.
Excellent addition! And it’s one that works.
I’ve heard some blacks (Caribbean and American), East Indians and non-white Latinos make some let’s say, questionable comments around me about skin color. I’ve always challenged them. I never attacked them for their views. I just calmly asked them why they felt the way the felt and what shaped these ideas they had. They soon saw the error in their thinking and re-evaluated their mindsets. All it takes is some introspection. Which brings it back to solution #3.
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RR,
Wow, I’m a woman so I do “heart.” So do men do “BS?” Because that’s all you present, time after time. Abagond’s blog sure does pull in the sexists.
“Heart” is when I present documents and statistics that refute your statements, and you excuse them as have something wrong with methodology, etc. That’s your heart, continuing to believe what you want because it makes you feel better about yourself. That’s why I don’t bother doing such anymore or debating with you. However, I see that I am causing you to lose your “rationality (because you’re a man, of course you’re rational!)” by challenging your statements, so I’ll stop. For now. 🙂
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Nastasha W,
You have NEVER presented anything even remotely close to a document or a statistic or even a coherent argument. If you had done this, I would have no issue with your remarks. Instead, what I get from you is something like, “RR, what you said is BS and I don’t like what you said and what you said offends me and what you said is not true, although I won’t provide a counter argument. So, a pox on your house!”. What I get from you is a whole lot of high dudgeon, but little in the way of refutation. If you feel that I’m full of it, show me! Perhaps I can learn something. Perhaps you can learn something.
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RR, maybe you should stop reading into my statements. It doesn’t become you. I have no vested interest in the issue of immigration or immigrants. I just think you falsely presented the colorism issue as something that immigrants have a significant hand in.
And your saying I never present statistics is false, as usual. See the post “Steve Sailer” if you’ve forgotten so soon your superb ability to dismiss facts.
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b.r., you wrote:
“Too many white people can look back in American history and look at say, government officials and real estate people colaborating to create white flight and therefor ghettos came into existance.”
WWHHAATT? Government Officials and Real Estate People Created White Flight?? It takes an extraordinary mental inversion offer a conclusion as silly as this. But, you did, and that, in itself is a big problem.
Perhaps you are suggesting that whites must first get official government permission to sell their homes and move.
In Cuba people are required to notify the government and receive permission before moving. Of course this rule mainly concerns women who decide to move to Havana because it is well understood what they plan to do after they get there.
You wrote:
“They know that is wrong, yet do nothing about it, or even belittle people from the ghetto.”
I see. So ghettos are created by people who do NOT live in them. That’s a remarkable concept, and it requires a lot of magic to make it true.
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Thiis post has been waited on for some time now, I agree a lot with the solutions to colourism I’m trying to drill it into my niece’s head since she slready think that lighter skin, looser hair texture and lighter eyes are better.
Oh and I’ve seen that Joy Daily Complexion Obession documentary, a lot of things in there made me want to reachh into the screen and give a hard slap lol
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no slap you beleived that the cia wasnt involved topling democraticly elected governments in South America, you obviously are in fantacy land .
Its a fact I saw in a documentary about New York that the real estate companies ,in colaboration with local officials, created fear in whites for the values of their properties and caused white flight to the suburbs.
If you dont want to beleive that, create your own fantacy world, where Obama is a muslim and the USA is socialist.
But the country is loaded with people like you now, lying to yourselves. Not admitting that the the tanking of the USA was handed to us on a platter from Bush and Chenney, whom Id bet you voted for after you knew they created the totaly false hype about weapons of mass destruction.
You know there is a tooth fairy and a Santa Clause…
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Oh, yes, blame it on the immigrants.
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Natasha W,
I stand corrected. You did give a reference back in the Steve Sailer thread. I apologize.
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To Herneith
Ó Dochartaigh, you wrote:
“I think you missed the point, people should not base there attraction on race.”
First, take note of these two words: THEIR and THERE.
Huh?
No slappz was correcting my grammar in a previous post.
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no_slappz,
You wrote:
am implying nothing — I am awarding you the gold medal for Clueless Racism. Based on your statements, Hitler would have given you a top job in the Department of Extermination.
This has to be the most illogical construction I have see you make on this board. To oppose immigration is to support…GENOCIDE!!!??? This is completely asinine. You are writing with your gut, not your head. I guess I was being sexist before (I apologize). Men (assuming you are male) CAN be as irrational as women. Please tell me HOW opposing immigration is tantamount to supporting genocide?
Perhaps this is your attempt at triangulation. I hope so.
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To No Slappz
Ó Dochartaigh, you wrote:
“First, Take note that you are being anal, THERE; I said it.”
“YOU respond to the apparent embarrassment of learning about your own spelling deficiency by dodging your error.”
I did not dodge anything, I admit my error, but that is exactly what it was; an error not a deficiency. What is with you?
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Colorism is here to stay. We have invested too much into it for it just to go away, and no, I am not being sarcastic. Colorism is the offspring of racism. If racism exists, then colorism will exist.
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this human obsession with dark skin ,light ,skin,slanted eyes,blue eyes etc serves to drive humanity further away from their true essence. humanity is sick and seriously need healing.what ever is your idea is of beauty, beauty is fleeting and it dies. what is beauty ? who are the beautiful?who says that blue eyes looks better? i guesss its our collective responsibilty as humanity to push values as the basis for better human relations .rather than this negative, poisonous destructive attitude than we have allowed the media to feed us. we must ensure that we protect our children from this negative social phenomena thats is fast cripplin our societies all around the globe. let me remind most of you the enemy is very clever ,so be vigilante protect the children and the weak especialy woman. thanks
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“If you know yourself and your selves, how can anyone else tear you down?”
This is so poetic. It should be on a card or something to inspire others.
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“let me remind most of you the enemy is very clever ,so be vigilante protect the children and the weak especialy woman. thanks”
robertuyi, Who exactly is the enemy?
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the enemy is the invincible entity that has used man against man for ages that entity the bible tells us is the devil and his emmisaries. man is vulnerable to this spiritual beings thats why jesus christ taught us to always be prayerful lest we fall into the temptation of this troubled world. the media is especialy a powerful medium with which the devil promotes his agenda thats why we all should be vigilante. colorism,racism,tribalism and all other icms are a part of the ploy of this enemy to keep man divided and confused. did that answer your question?
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and to add something else over intellectualising most of hte problems of racism will not solve anything just simple prayer and word of love for those we meet everyday would do more good for this trouled world. what need is love. a simple hello and a smile could do more to uplift a person than just this scholarly diatribes that most cannot even fathom.
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the simple things are more effective
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Thad makes a great point Abagond…
I’ll respond after reading more posts. Overall, this is a great solutions post and I like the ideas. Good job ‘mynameismyname’.
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To Shani,
Colorism will go away. Hatred will stay – regardless of the reason.
Look at recent history: The Hutu & Tutsi – hatred inspired genocide with no color boundary whatsoever, just differences in cultural background.
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@Thad
Granted. But why are ethnic identities supposedly so much better than professional, sexual, or what have you identities?
They are not. But for many people, they are very important in building their identity, so they must be taken into account.
There are other (individual) identities that are, in my opinion, even more important (or perhaps more important in my case).
On the other hand, the way people shape their identities is always individual. To me, gender identity is more important than ethnic one, and both are more important than the racial one. Other people build their identities differently. But ethnic identity is one of the most common ones, so I do think it’s important topic for a discussion.
Also, I’d caution you against reading “pride” as “identity” when it’s Americans talking unless you’ve seen the ridiculous lengths Americans of all colors are willing to go to in celebrating their respective “heritage” while cheerfully forgetting history. They say “pride” and I think they mean precisely that, Mira.
Ok. I guess I don’t know much about the way Americans approach this issue. But still, I don’t think “pride” is correct way to go and yes, the only way I could understand it is to treat “pride” as “identity”. It’s the only way it makes sense to me. I understand others see this matter differently.
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Thad,
You’re being brutal! (great points though…) Lack of “tact” is fine I guess.
To Robertuyi: “the enemy is the invincible entity that has used man against man for ages that entity the bible tells us is the devil and his emmisaries.”
I hear ya, I feel ya, I understand ya… Thad will shred you to pieces if this turns into a theological debate. (and find the aftertaste quite satisfying I might add.) There is a differen thread that covers that topic quite nicely.
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This thread was horrible. Nothing but derailing! great ideas mymameismyname.
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Dani,
What would you like people to say? Just curious. What was your hope for the discussion?
I think people had some great points.
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Dani,
I think this is a great post by virtue of the comments alone.
As for solutions: My opinion is that we need to get rid of a ‘separatist’ mentality.
What are your ideas on ‘solutions to colorism’?
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Hey colorofluv and islandgirl
I thought this thread went off topic at the end. However, I do agree that there are some great points to dismantling colorism
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Thad,
One can believe that race is a biological reality without being race obsessed. I know this is a difficult concept for you to grasp because you have this simple “Race does not exist” hammer argument that you try to use on every race related nail you encounter. Your’s is a fools errand, but you are welcome to continue tilting until your heart’s content. Recognizing the biological reality of race does NOT mean we need to have months dedicated to racial/ethnic groups or special laws to supposedly protect said groups or curriculum developed to get others to appreciate the specialness of particular groups. But we in the US currently do have these things. And this exercise has heightened racial tension, not diminished it. Recognizing the biological reality of race does not imply that race should be celebrated. This is why I agreed with you. My agreement is in keeping with my belief that race is a biological reality. The notions are not contradictory. It is your own dogmatism that keeps you from acknowledging this.
I think the problem you are having is that you lack the ability to conceptualize racial nuance. Thus you keep yammering about how race doesn’t exist because races aren’t discrete entities. Race is a continuum. Race is relative. To state this is not to support the superiority of any race over another. I have never stated that whites are biologically superior to other races. I DEFY YOU TO SHOW OTHERWISE! This will be another fool’s errand for you because I never wrote anything even remotely close to such an absurdity. Do I believe that the races are different? In aggregate, yes. The races have different tendencies, proclivities, strengths and weaknesses. Is this absolute. NO! Individuals of particular races frequently do things associated with another race. Again, recognizing these realities does not mean one race is superior in all things. For you to state such reveals more about your own immature view of race and the paucity of logic you bring to your analysis of race.
You wrote:
Racial/ethnic pride is entirely made up of “fancy egalitarian theories about the rights of man”.
This statement is ridiculous. Just look at Nazism. The Nazis certainly did not believe in the universal rights of man. They didn’t even believe in the rights of Germans within Germany. Hitler was not a fan of John Locke last time I checked. But the Nazis were avowed racists who took pride in the achievements of Aryans.
My hope is that nationalism can trump racialism.
Given that the two are, at their base, the same phenomenon, this is a logical impossibility.
I get your point, but if true, then harmonious multi-racial societies are also logical impossibilities because the reality of race (and racial differences) will continue to be with us for the foreseeable future. My hope is that we in the US can maintain WASP cultural traditions that will ultimately be accepted by non-WASP CITIZENS of the US. This idea is related to Anderson’s imaginary kinship notion, except that I think it can be used as a way to include disparate groups into a common culture. In a sense, all Americans can talk themselves into being honorary WASPs, with the Founding Fathers as imaginary (or, in many cases, actual) kin. Of course, this can’t happen in the US if we continue to accept multitudes of people who are either indifferent to our culture or worse, hostile to our culture.
“Why you think imaginary kinship and genetic relatedness are synonyms is anyone’s guess”
I never wrote that. You wrote that. What I did write is that you accept the reality of ancestry. You have accepted the reality that ancestry is not a social construction. What I am saying is that kinship (biological family) matters. It often trumps other types of relationships. People have a tendency to favor those with whom they have familial ties. Anderson uses the notion of kinship because kinship has such a strong connotations. Anderson, like you, failed to grasp the importance of families (race) as it relates to nationalism. Biological kinship actually exists. People are related to families. And families are related to races.
But why are ethnic identities supposedly so much better than professional, sexual, or what have you identities?
I can answer this one. It is because ethnicity is family writ large. To many people, their familial relationships are often the most important ones. This is why questions surrounding race/ethnicity are so heated. Race is important because family is important. It ain’t more complicated than that.
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Dani, I agree, the comments could have been more thought-provoking and on-topic. But it’s not too late…
What do you think of colorism and the genders? Is there a difference in the way colorism affects men and women and how they perceive color? I have thoughts on this, but I’d like to hear how others feel about it.
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…and how can these differences, if any, be addressed?
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Natasha W,
Colorism affects the sexes differently (as does hair, weight and height). The following can be observed(note, these are not absolutes):
1) Men, generally speaking prefer women lighter than themselves. Women generally, prefer men who are darker than themselves.
2) Men prefer women with shiny and long hair. Women also seem to have this preference, but to a much less significant extent.
3) Men prefer women who are rounder than they are. Women prefer men who are more muscular than they are.
4) Men prefer women who are shorter than they are. Women prefer men who are significantly taller than they are.
This is true within races. Why do these preferences exist? One could argue that society trains its members to adopt certain standards of physical attractiveness, but what socializes society? Why would, say, white people make color distinctions among OTHER white people? What would white people gain from that? How would the aims of the rulers of a given society be furthered by encouraging women to prefer taller men to shorter men?
Colorism, like its cousin racism, doesn’t seem to need much prodding to manifest itself. Humans have to be trained NOT to exhibit biases. Why are human mating patterns fertile ground for such biases?
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With regard to:
“J sez:
However, for a people :
“who have been robbed of their land, language religion, culture and as result some of us even lost our mind as the Public Enemy song goes from Khalid Muhamamd
Ethnic pride or any delineation you want to call it is very important.
Couple of major problems with that:
1) It presumes that there’s some sort of coherent “people” which has existed throughout the last 5 centuries. That’s not true with either white or black americans.
I am afraid the history books will show that it is Whites who constructed an ideology based on White skin and anyone who had a differnt colour skin was inferior.
You can add in class analysis or any other analysis you so choose but this does not change the basic reality.”
With regard to:
4) Finally, though racism has indeed caused people to lose their minds, none of that is necessarily resolvable with ethnic pride.
Personally you should let those who have lost their mind decide for themselves what is the appropriate action. For too long ‘others’ keep dictating to oppressed people, and in particular how Black people should feel, react etc. This is a form of paternalism and very dangerous too…
And again with regard to:
” J asks:
Well just take a look at the Western world ascendency and the plight of the rest of the world. It is clear it has done the Western world a lot of good , if not then why have they not chosen to relinquish any of its power??
J, this presumes a rather naive unity in goals and benefits throughout all the multitudinous actors who make up “the western world”, don’t you think
No!! I think Fanon is instructive here from Ch 4
* ‘Physically and affectively. I have not wished to be objective. Besides, that would be dishonest: Its not possible to be objective’ “
* ‘When one tries to examine the structure of this or that form of exploitation from an abstract point of view, one simply turns one’s back on the major basic problem, which is that of restoring man to his proper place”’.
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Colorofluv says:
Lack of “tact” is fine I guess.
I get paid to be tactful in the classroom, not on my own time on the internet. 😉 Plus, I truly believe that some ideas should just be met head on, guns blazing. Tact is good, but too often it simple means avoiding conflict and there are plenty of bad ideas and memes out there that take advantage of that sort of “tact” in order to spread like kudzu.
I will say this, though: people whould NEVER take what I say personally, unless I specifically make a point of it.
I should also state – surprise! – that I myself am not an athiest. I’m simply someone who doesn’t let my emotional longing for ultimate meaning in the universe confuse my rationality about what I’m actually observing. And I certainly am not willing to buy any preacher or pope’s snake oil.
RR, if you want to make yourself look foolish regarding race again, please take it to the appropriate thread, OK?
As for “rights of man”, I figured I was being clear, but apparently the point was too subtle for you. Hitler did indeed base his mumbo jumbo on “fancy egalitarian theories about the rights of man”. You seem to think that means he preached equality of all humans, everywhere. In a way, he did. He had some very fanct theories about how human societies were organized and they did indeed presume essential equality – of all Germans in Germany, for example, and all french in france… Hitler’s brand of fascism preached that humanity was divided into great groups called “races” (though his view of race was more nationalistic than most), but that within these groups, individuals were basically equal components of the nationalist body.
Now sure, you might pick a nit and say “That’s not belief in the right of man!” and you’d be right. I, however, say to you that it is a nit. Any theory that postulates the essential equality and hegemonic unity of, say 150 million people is functionally a “fancy theory about the rights of man”. Whether you believe that you are “equal” to all 6 billion human beings on the planet or just to 300 million Americans of 1 billion blacks in the diaspora is simply a question of numbers. The fundamental belief is the same: a fancy theory about how human beings are and should be subsumed by imagined collectivities.
J sez:
I am afraid the history books will show that it is Whites who constructed an ideology based on White skin and anyone who had a differnt colour skin was inferior.
You can add in class analysis or any other analysis you so choose but this does not change the basic reality.”
Yeah, but that doesn’t address my point number one, does it? I’m not saying a damned thing about who started racism and, in fact, I believe you are fundamentally correct when you blame whites.
What I’m saying in point number one is that there is no social collectivity in America – white or black – that can be considered to be the direct and unchanged descendant of those which existed 500 years ago. Thus appeals to “they took our land” and what not are so much empty rhetoric – unless, of course, you happen to be an American Indian, in which case, depending upon the nation, you might actually have a point.
Personally you should let those who have lost their mind decide for themselves what is the appropriate action.
They can do what they want and I am free to criticize it. I don’t think fascism is the colution and I don’t care if it gets painted up in black face, first: it’s still unpalatable to me and always will be.
As for “oppressed”, J, you are hardly oppressed by me.
* ‘Physically and affectively. I have not wished to be objective. Besides, that would be dishonest: Its not possible to be objective’ “
* ‘When one tries to examine the structure of this or that form of exploitation from an abstract point of view, one simply turns one’s back on the major basic problem, which is that of restoring man to his proper place”’.
First of all, no one is preaching objectivity here, false or otherwise. Secondly, Fanon’s point about man is meant to be read strictly in the humanistic sense. He is not preaching “only some kinds of men need to restored to their proper place”.
As a matter of fact, speaking about Fanon, he only believed that ethnonationalism could be useful in the beginning stages of a revolution. He made it very clear, in “Wretched of the Earth”, that any ethnonationalist revolution that tried to turn inwwards on itself and seek justice only for SOME particular people or peoples wopuld quickly devolve into fascism. It would end up, again according to Fanon, with the same colonialistic and racist situation as previously, only this time with a thin veneer of black leadership doing the hatchetwork on their own people.
Hmmm. Shades of African history over the last half century, neh?
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However, the topic is about colourism
And since Whites created it as Garvey said probably the best response Blacks can do is unite on the basis of race to address the issue.
Personally I think it a warped idea to follow Gilroy’s argument and suggest it will lead to facism or it is equated to facism.
Garvey is many things to different people in the academic world, but very few would accept Gilroy’s critique.
So in essence ‘ethnic pride’ (or what Garvey would call ‘Race First consciousness) should be instilled amongst Blacks, since they have been robbed of this basic dignity…
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Thad wrote:
“I, however, say to you that it is a nit. Any theory that postulates the essential equality and hegemonic unity of, say 150 million people is functionally a “fancy theory about the rights of man”. “
Hitler…THE DICTATOR….was an egalitarian??!!! Perhaps your thoughts sound more reasonable in Portugese. In English, it sounds like blather.
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And since Whites created it as Garvey said probably the best response Blacks can do is unite on the basis of race to address the issue.
Personally I think it a warped idea to follow Gilroy’s argument and suggest it will lead to facism or it is equated to facism.
Once again, if you actually READ Gilroy instead of dishonest commentators, you’ll quickly discover he says nothing of the sort. He does not believe that Garvey’s ethnonationalism equates to facsism or that it will lead there.
What he DOES believe is that it tends to trap blacks in a vanguardist mindset which will not result in any substantive change.
He does believe that Garveyism has an emotional appeal and can even result in some tactical victories. Unfortunately, as it is based upon RACE and as race is ultimately and inevitably based upon white supremacy, Garveyism can never be anything, ultimately, other than reactionary.
THAT would be a more honest reading of Gilroy. As for what the “majority of academics” would think about this, I haven’t a clue – and nor do you, to be honest.
Furthermore, I’m unaware of anything that shows how “ethnic pride” translates into “basic dignity”. want to enlighten me?
RR sez:
Hitler…THE DICTATOR….was an egalitarian??!!! Perhaps your thoughts sound more reasonable in Portugese. In English, it sounds like blather.
The problem RR is your grasp of English, not mine. I said quite clearly, e had some very fanct theories about how human societies were organized and they did indeed presume essential equality – of all Germans in Germany, for example, and all french in france…
That is not the same thing as “Hitler was egalitarian”.
Your original gripe was about “fancy egalitarian social theories”, which you seem to presume are a specialty of the left.
In fact, if you’d ever taken a course on the history of nationalism, you’d quicly learn that ALL nationalist theory is based upon notions of egalitarianism. Fascism is not different in this respect and, in fact, emphasizes certain forms of egalitarianism at the expense of others.
Fascism was based on a very particular reading of humanity. It proposed “natural” units of humanity which had a supposedly “natural” degree of organic unity and this was, of course, a very egalitarian philosophy. Look up the symbolism of the “fasci” on wikipedia. I’ll wait.
Under Hitler’s version of fascism, he was simply the organic expression of the people’s will, not any particularly super-endowed being.
You need to actually engage with what the Nazis were writing, RR, and not with Hollywood.
Now, OF COURSE fascism didn’t propose a universal equality of all man kind in the sense that all men were members of some universal brotherhood. But it DID presume that all men were equally members of these entities called “nations” or “races” which were competing among each other in social darwinistic fashion.
In short, fascism subsumed humans into collectivities which presumed their essential “equalness” with respect to one another. Fascism was summarily unconcerned with individualism which it – like communism – considered to be a cultural illusion created by the bourgeois domination of the world.
Fascism was thus very much based on “fancy notions regarding human equality”. What it WASN’T based on were notions of universal bortherhood.
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