This is five minutes long, but well worth listening to all the way to the end. As a slam poet Chin always makes sure to save the best for last. The male voice you hear at the beginning is Howard Zinn, who just passed away.
See also:
- Haiti: a brief history – which is partly based on Las Casas
- Staceyann Chin: Pity the Nation – more good stuff from Staceyann
- genocide
- Staceyann Chin
- Howard Zinn
One word wow, thank you for posting this
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I have not yet had time to watch the link as yet. So I am unsure whether the stats below has been mentioned in the link.
‘…in Hispaniola, native Arawak numbers plummetted from approx 7 million to less than 500 by the 1540s. (ie in a period of 50 years’
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j, you wrote:
“‘…in Hispaniola, native Arawak numbers plummetted from approx 7 million to less than 500 by the 1540s. (ie in a period of 50 years’”
Today’s total population of Hispaniola (Haiti + Dominican Republic) is 19 million.
First, it is inconceivable that anyone living in 1500 had the slightest idea how many people lived on the island. Really. Who took the census?
Second, the best estimate of the world’s population in 1800 is One Billion. Today we are at 6.8 Billion.
In 1500, the global population would have been substantially less than One Billion.
IF the population of Hispaniola were 7 million in 1500 AND it is 19 million today, THEN the population growth on the island occurred at an unrealistically slow pace. Much, much slower than the population growth in 99% of the world. Meanwhile, it is unreasonable to think the island was so densely populated by people who could not possibly have raised enough food for their numbers.
It is far more reasonable to estimate the population of Hispaniola in 1500 was 700,000. Not 7 million.
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With regard to:
‘…in Hispaniola, native Arawak numbers plummetted from approx 7 million to less than 500 by the 1540s. (ie in a period of 50 years’
Reference: Reversing Sail: A history of the African Diaspora by Michael A. Gomez, Cambriddge University Press, reprint edition 2009
Pg 62 (which is not sighted below)
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=QXpcAc5S-EwC&dq=Reversing+Sail:+A+History+of+the+African+Diaspora+(New+Approaches+to+African+History)+-+Paperback+(Dec+6,+2004)+by+Michael+A.+Gomez&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=4ehiS4mPHZj-0gSbz5nRBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false
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J, YOU CITED:
“Reference: Reversing Sail: A history of the African Diaspora by Michael A. Gomez”
The claim of over 7 million people on Hispaniola in 1500 is ridiculous no matter who says it.
As I said, there was no way to conduct an accurate census — and no reason to try. The figure of 7 million is simply unbelievable, and it defies all knowledge of the global population at that time.
But claiming mass death followed the arrival of Europeans adds up to a compelling story. One of those stories about whites ruining life for the supposedly peaceful, nature-loving indigenous population.
On the other hand, the final number of Arawaks — 500 — might be close to the truth. Also, the force that defeated the French in Haiti in 1800 was Yellow Fever.
Thus Haiti can thank the disease for making independence possible.
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So what are your sources then Slappz…at least I gave one??
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And I forgot to add you seem to be good in telling me what the figure is NOT.
Whilst you are there finding your source, can you tell me what the estimated figure of the population of the island
was back then.
I am going to regard the issue of an accurate census of the region as a ‘red herring’, unless you are willing to use this type of rationalisation for much of history, and other areas of knowledge.
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j, you asked:
“So what are your sources then Slappz?”
As I said, there is NO WAY to get credible information about the population of a primitive island in 1500. But, at least the following estimate — from the Internet — of One Million Arawaks is in line with rational thinking about global population in 1500.
PEOPLE GONE BUT NOT FORGOTTEN: SEVEN EXTINCT SOCIETIES
ARAWAK OF HISPANIOLA
Their Society: Originally from South America, the Arawak Indians spoke an Amazonian dialect. They had migrated north through the Caribbean island chains to the island of Hispaniola, which today is occupied by the nations of Haiti and the Dominican Republic.
This large island lying between Cuba and Puerto Rico was the homeland of 1 million Arawak Indians in the 15th century.
The Arawak were primarily farmers; they grew manioc and corn in fields that they cleared by burning off the jungle undergrowth. Arawak men hunted hutias (small rodents) and iguanas and spearfished in the island streams and in the ocean.
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Thanks…
However,
1. Where is this reference taken from??
2. What was the estimated figure for Hispaniola??
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j, you wrote:
“I am going to regard the issue of an accurate census of the region as a ‘red herring’, unless you are willing to use this type of rationalisation for much of history, and other areas of knowledge.”
The population of the world has been increasing since Day One. Although it probably declined during the period of the Black Plague.
We can make reasonable estimates the world’s population at various points in history. But any estimate of the population on a primitive island in 1500 is, at best, a guesstimate.
However, if you accept that the Arawaks farmed, hunted small animals and speared fish, it’s clear they were incapable of feeding 7 million.
The estimate of 1 million is within reason. The most reasonable way to estimate the island’s population is to compare today’s world population with the estimate of global population in 1500, then derive Hispaniola’s population in 1500 using the ratio calculated using the two global numbers.
The world’s population in 1500 is estimated at 425 million. Today it is 6.8 million. Thus, the population in 1500 was one-sixteenth of today’s figure. Therefore, we can estimate Hispaniola’s population in 1500 by dividing today’s population of 19 million by 16, which gives us 1.2 million.
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j, you asked:
1. Where is this reference taken from??
2. What was the estimated figure for Hispaniola??
The source is the following:
© 1975 – 1981 by David Wallechinsky & Irving Wallace
Reproduced with permission from “The People’s Almanac” series of books.
The estimate of one million seems to be the estimate for the entire island of Hispaniola in 1500.
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There isn’t any amount of gold or riches that is worth more than a human life. Why don’t White people understand this? They used religion as an excuse to commit genocide. That is BLASPHEMY.
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Estimates of the pre_Columbian population vary enormously; see fuller discussion at Taino (ie Arawaks). Cook and Borah (see references below) estimated the native population (Taino) of Hispaniola at the time of Columbus’s conquest in 1493 at 8,000,000, probably the highest estimate.
http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Christopher-Colombus
Either way: 8 million, 7 million, 4, million or even 3 million.
Within a span of 50 years or so they were reduced to hundreds in a process of genocide which does not minimise the act…
Again a matter on ‘perspectives’ ie teh number games and secondly how important are those numbers in the act of genocide??
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leaveumthinking, you wrote:
“There isn’t any amount of gold or riches that is worth more than a human life. Why don’t White people understand this?”
White people? The murder rate among blacks is 7 to 10 times higher than among whites. You’ve got it backwards.
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j, you wrote:
“Within a span of 50 years or so they were reduced to hundreds in a process of genocide which does not minimise the act…”
The chief killer was disease. Not man-made weapons.
Nevertheless, you want to pretend the world of the 1500s — which was known as the Age of Conquest — was something other than it should have been.
You also seem willing to ignore the bloodshed and killing that occurred during tribal wars in Africa.
By the way, many Native American tribes were tribes of warriors who attacked other tribes. If you think whites were the only group to play the game of conquest, you are mistaken.
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So can I clarify, are you stating that there was no act of genocide in Hispaniola by the Spanish??
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j,
The Spanish killed large numbers of natives with various weapons. Mass murder. Call it whatever you want.
From your position in the 21st-century, you might claim the Spanish, in 1500, committed “genocide.” But in 1500, the world operated on rougher principles. That was, as I mentioned, The Age of Conquest.
Thus, if you are judging the historical record by today’s terms, you are wasting your effort.
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@Leaveumthinking.
I COMPLETELY AGREE!!!!!!!!
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Me too.
Las Casas makes it clear that Hispaniola was surprisingly well populated. He called it a beehive in the part that Staceyann Chin reads above. I think based on his account we can safely say the island had at least a million people. Then in 50-some years all but a few hundred had died. So far as I know there are no accounts of them dying mainly from disease. Smallpox did not come till later.
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Well I think you summed it up nicely mass murder, genocide, extermination – not much difference really
This ‘get out clause’ that you cannot compare the present
to the past is simply a way to ‘absolve Europeans’ for taking responsibility for their ‘conduct’ in the past.
However, the West are not keen to adopt this approach when they view the likes of Stalin etc
Its a funny old game
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Whilst having the discussion earlier with No_Slapzz. I learnt something new (and I thank him for that). It became apparent that Las Casas thought there was more than a million people on the island
“The Spanish priest Bartolomé de Las Casas (who was living in the Dominican Republic at the time) wrote in his 1561 multivolume History of the Indies:[24]
There were 60,000 people living on this island [when I arrived in 1508], including the Indians; so that from 1494 to 1508, OVER THREE MILLION PEOPLE had perished from war, slavery and the mines. Who in future generations will believe this?”
Researchers today doubt Las Casas’s figures for the pre-contact levels of the Taíno population, considering them an exaggeration…”
I like the line “Who in future generations will believe this?”
ha ha ha ha ha
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oops
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ta%C3%ADno
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And again while we on the topic of ‘get out clauses’. We see a similar thing with slavery and the slave trade, and the amount that were brought over to the Americas (usually approx 12 million slaves) and also to what effect did slavery help boost the economy of European nations (answer very negligible)??
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j, you wrote:
“This ‘get out clause’ that you cannot compare the present
to the past is simply a way to ‘absolve Europeans’ for taking responsibility for their ‘conduct’ in the past.”
Absolve Europeans? Hardly. Mass murder was the way of almost every society in the whole world in the Age of Conquest.
You wrote:
“However, the West are not keen to adopt this approach when they view the likes of Stalin etc”
The Age of Conquest ended a few centuries ago. Stalin, Hitler, Jo En Lai, Pol Pot and the Hutus were 20th-century genocidal tyrants. Different world. Different standards.
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There are many across the world who I am afraid who would disagree with your analysis. Equally there are many who are more than happy with the status quo
but as I like to say its all about ‘perspectives’….
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j,
The chief issue is the FUTURE. Not the PAST.
We now have well over two hundred years of history to show that democracy and capitalism bring more benefits to more people than any other form of government.
But muslims — a large percentage — want to see democracy and capitalism stopped in their tracks.
Almost every leader in Africa wants dictatorial control of the hapless populations. No democracy. No capitalism. Life is defined by misery.
Haiti is the horrible mess that it is because its leaders oppose democracy and capitalism.
The results of alternative governments speak for themselves.
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However, you still have a system of White global supremacy, a few call it that , others refer to it as the developed nations, neo-colonialists and the names go on forever.
As for alternatives government. I am sure the aforesaid would suggest at a time when Europe was in its ‘dark ages’, for nearly 700 years or so. ‘We were doing very nicely, thanks’.
It is only by a process of appropriation because of teh little resources within Europe that teh Western nation finds itself in a position to boast of its exploits.
Again its all about ‘perspectives’…And yours is pretty clear to me
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It is estimated that within a few decades of Columbus’s first voyage, the majority of the New World’s aboriginal population died of Old World diseases Europeans (and Africans) had brought with them. Often entire peoples were decimated before they had even seen any Europeans.
From Wikipedia:
Nearly all scholars now believe that widespread epidemic disease, to which the natives had no prior exposure or resistance, was the overwhelming cause of the massive population decline of the Native Americans.[12] They reject both of the earliest European immigrants’ explanations for the population decline of the American natives. The first explanation was the brutal practices of the Spanish conquistadores, as recorded by the Spanish themselves. The most notable account was that of the Dominican friar Bartolomé de las Casas, whose writings vividly depict Spanish atrocities committed in particular against the Taínos. Historians have noted there simply were not enough Spanish to have caused such a large population decline (though this does not exonerate many Spanish incomers from having committed grossly inhumane acts against the native peoples). The second European explanation was a perceived divine approval, in which God removed the natives as part of His “divine plan” to make way for a new Christian civilization. Many native Americans viewed their troubles in terms of religious or supernatural causes within their own belief systems.
Soon after Europeans and Africans began to arrive in the New World, bringing with them the infectious diseases of Europe and Africa, observers noted immense numbers of indigenous Americans began to die from these diseases. One reason this death toll was overlooked (or downplayed) is that once introduced the diseases raced ahead of European immigration in many areas. Disease killed off a sizable portion of the populations before European observations (and thus written records) were made. After the epidemics had already killed massive numbers of natives, many newer European immigrants assumed that there had always been relatively few indigenous peoples. The scope of the epidemics over the years was tremendous, killing millions of people—possibly in excess of 90% of the population in the hardest hit areas—and creating one of “the greatest human catastrophe in history, far exceeding even the disaster of the Black Death of medieval Europe”[13], which had killed up to one-third of the people in Europe and Asia between 1347 and 1351.
The Spanish conquests would not have been possible without the biological advantage than the Europeans had. The Spaniards were always heavily outnumbered, but their adversaries were so weakened by disease that they could not put up a fight.
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There appears to be a side of the argument that the aforesaid did not take into account viz
Irrespective of the populationnumbers on the islands, or how many were actually killed by the process of disease??
The question which I think it is hard to refute, even No_Slappz conceded to this point.
Did the Spanish EMBARK on a process of genocide, extermination, or in No_Slappz words ‘mass murder’,
or any other similar adjective you would like to choose
of the Taino’s??
And if they did die by a process of disease was the large amount that died across the whole of the Americas, alsodue to disease and nothing to do with the ‘warfare approach’ of the Spanish’ (again ‘mass murder etc)??
I thought I would add that extra question into the equation
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Abagond,
ThanX for the video, I like StacyAnn…she went through serious trials and tribulations
…here are links about modern day Tainos (mixed) are trying to revive and correct their history.
http://www.kacike.org/FerbelEnglish.html
http://www.lasculturas.com/articles/14-culture-a-identity/22-the-taino-survival
http://bajanreporter.blogspot.com/2009/06/karaira-tribal-links-taino-grandmother.html
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It was the most complete genocide in history, brought to the world by the same people who brought the Inquisition and the mass expulsion of Iberia’s muslims and Jews.
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“On the other hand, the final number of Arawaks — 500 — might be close to the truth. Also, the force that defeated the French in Haiti in 1800 was Yellow Fever.”
no_slappz is right about the exaggerations of Las Casas for the population of Hispaniola in 1492, but wrong about yellow fever. The French were not defeated until 1803, and although yellow fever played a big role in weakening French forces, the local resistance in the battlefield also played a role. no_slappz makes it seem like the resistance they faced in battle and the general population was insignificant.
For those interested in the role of yellow fever and the great mosquito in the circum-Caribbean region, read about the role of yellow fever in the defeat of the English forces during the US War of Independence. Should we attribute the British defeat in the South of the US to the effects of yellow fever and malaria? No, that would be absurd, yet it played a role there.
McNeill has a book about this, including a chapter on the French in Saint Domingue/Hispaniola. Check it out, Mosquito Empires: Ecology and War in the Greater Caribbean.
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Thank you sheding some light on what was done to my people
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Staceyann Chinn is riveting.
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Howard Zinn is now one of my new found heroes
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