Amun

Thu Jul 19th 2018 by abagond

Amun as he appeared in Egyptian art.

Amun (by the year -2323), also known as Ammon, Amon, Amen, Amen-Re, and Jupiter Ammon, was an Egyptian and Nubian god, the most powerful god in the world from at least -1500 to -1000, back in the time of Moses and Troy. “Powerful” is here measured by the size of the largest active temple.

Amun is the “amen” of “Tutankhamen”, the “ammon” of “ammonia” – but not the “amen” commonly found at the end of prayers in English since the +1200s.

Note: As with much of Ancient Egyptian history, most vowels are guessed at and most dates are approximate.

Karnak: Amun’s main temple was the Temple of Karnak in Thebes (Luxor, Egypt). It has been the largest known religious structure in the world for the past 3,000 some years.

Temple of Karnak.

Amun through the years:

-2323: Amun begins to appear in Egyptian records (Pyramid Text #446), as a local god of Thebes.

-1937: His name begins to appear in those of kings: Amenemhat I.

-1750: He overtakes Montu, the old war god of Thebes, and takes on some of his features, like being a god of victory.

-1539: The kings of Thebes defeat the Hyksos and bring Egypt back together under native rule. To the victors go the spoils of war – and to the god of victory too. With the rise of the Egyptian empire, Amun’s priesthood becomes more and more powerful – while outliving any one king. As Amen-Re he is seen as being the sun god Ra too. He becomes the King of the Gods in Egypt. His temple becomes the place where he thought the world into being.

-1340: Amenhotep IV, husband of Nefertiti, changes his name to Akhenaton, taking the Amun out of his name and putting in its place a different god: Aten. His father, Amenhotep III, had begun to push back against the power of Amun’s priesthood. Akhenaton took it much further and said Aten was the only god!

-1325: Tutankhamen, son of Akhenaton, officially returns Egypt to the worship of Amun and the old gods. Amun’s priesthood presumably took advantage of King Tut’s youth and inexperience: he was only about 11.

-1275: Amun is credited with saving the Egyptian army at the Battle of Kadesh, the largest chariot battle ever.

-1150: The priesthood at Karnak has grown so powerful they own at least 7% of the people of Egypt and 9% of the land. At least. They also control the king’s taxes and the king’s lands. The king, the mighty pharaoh, becomes little more than a figurehead.

-900s: Egypt falls under Libyan rule. They are the first in a long string of foreign rulers: Nubian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Arab, etc.

-700s: Under Nubian rule, Amum makes a comeback. He was one of their gods too.

-332: Alexander the Great takes over Egypt and has himself declared the son of Amun. The Greeks see Amun as being Zeus. Romans knew him as Jupiter Ammon.

+391: Amun’s public worship is outlawed by the Roman Empire. By then most Egyptians were already worshipping Yahweh instead – as most still do today in +2018 as either Muslims or Christians.

– Abagond, +2018.

See also:

Egypt: a brief history
- Ancient Egypt
  - Hyksos
  - Nefertiti
  - King Tut
  - Ramses II – who fought at Kadesh
- Roman Egypt
Nubia
Yahweh
- Larycia Hawkins – fired from Wheaton College for teaching that Muslims and Evangelical Christians worship the same god.

550

Posted in stuff | 153 Comments

153 Responses

on Fri Jul 20th 2018 at 14:43:45 Everett F. Pomare

@Abagond

Yahweh and Allah are two COMPLETELY different personalities. Muslims, I’m afraid to say, absolutely, positively DO NOT worship the same God as Jews and gentile Christians! That is just an Islamic propaganda myth, as Allah, if you do the historical research, was simply the ancient lunar god of the Arabs in the days before the advent of Islam. All Muhammad did was incorporate the pagan practices of his people (the Arabs) by dressing it up as monotheism, which Islam has never really been, to be honest.

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on Fri Jul 20th 2018 at 18:48:14 blakksage

“That is just an Islamic propaganda myth, as Allah, if you do the historical research, was simply the ancient lunar god of the Arabs in the days before the advent of Islam.” – Everett

Exactly! The Arabs worshipped the moon prior to Muhammad coming on the scene. This explains why the vast majority of Arab countries have a crescent moon emblazoned on their national flag because it harkens back to the days of their paganistic and/or idolatry rituals.

The Arabs succumbed to the wishes of Muhammad’s Islam because of the threat of his raised sword. Nonetheless, it is still a religion of the pagans/heathens!

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on Fri Jul 20th 2018 at 19:00:23 TeddyBearDaddy

@blakksage

I noticed how your icon switched from a ‘Lion’ type to this. So are officially converted to the ‘Israelites’? I want Abagond to do a post on these groups from coast to coast in America. How Asians are scum, blacks and Latinos are some how the true Israelites etc etc… Enlighten me butthole.

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on Fri Jul 20th 2018 at 19:19:43 Solitaire

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh

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on Fri Jul 20th 2018 at 19:28:13 A Russian Nagpo

@Everett F. Pomare

@blakksage

Judaism, Christianity and Islam are not different– well, not from my point of view :-] . Each one of the three abrahamic teachings postulates the existence of G-d the creator and immortal and indivisible souls. They also have a lot of common prophets, starting from Abraham and to Islamic Musa, Eliyyas, Ayyub (Job), Dawud, Sulayman, Nuh, Isa bin Maryam, etc.

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on Sat Jul 21st 2018 at 05:03:11 blakksage

“Enlighten me butthole.” – TeddyBearDaddy

Unsurprisingly, this type of post is endemic among SOME of the cesspool of low brow, Kneegroe commenters here at Abagond. Things of this nature take place without even as much as some type of censorship or even deletion by the moderator of posts such as this, which is also clearly off topic.

Even further, I fault not only TeddyBear for spewing such an ignorant rant of a post, but Abagond as well. Because it is not only a reflection of SOME of the commenters on this board, but you as well Abagond for passively endorsing Teddy’s crappy post without being filtered.

@TeddyBear, on one hand, I want you to know that you’re not insulting me at all by referring to me as being a “butthole” because we all have opinions and I’ve been referred to as being something a whole lot worse. Additionally, your opinions mean nothing to me. But equally and on the other hand, your post is somewhat amusing because I believe that you’re actually exposing and insulting your own level of intelligence by expecting to be enlightened by a “butthole.” How does that work??

GTF outta here!

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on Sat Jul 21st 2018 at 09:45:46 Origin

Comments about the Islam’s association with moon imagery reminded me of an interesting thing I’d noticed some time ago. Ancient Egyptians had a Lunar Deity called Iah (possibly a form of Khonsu).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iah
[quote]
Iah ( Egyptian: jˁḥ, Coptic ⲟⲟϩ) is a lunar deity in ancient Egyptian religion. The word jˁḥ simply means “moon”. It is also transliterated as Yah, Jah, Jah(w), Joh or Aah
[/quote]

It’s interesting because, as the various transliterations suggest, it is quite reminiscent of Yah/Jah and basically means “moon” in the language.

Then of course, the Arabic Allah and the Aramaic Eloah from the Bible seem to be quite similar.

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on Sun Jul 22nd 2018 at 18:04:27 blakksage

“+391: Amun’s public worship is outlawed by the Roman Empire. By then most Egyptians were already worshipping Yahweh instead – as most still do today in +2018 as either Muslims or Christians.” – Abagond

Exodus 11:7 But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that ye may know how that the LORD doth put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel.

Liar! The Egyptians and the Israelites do not worship the same God. Islamists or Muslims worship a meteorite rock at Mecca, which is idolatry. It is impossible for a supposed Holy Rock to prophesy, it does not speak nor does it give commandments and issue judgments. The Israelites worship the one and only true God.

Habakkuk 2:19 Woe unto him that saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach! Behold, it is laid over with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in the midst of it.

“He first appears in Egyptian records by -1363 as YHW. He is also known as YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, Elah, Allah, the Lord, the Holy Trinity, God Almighty and the Demiurge. I will call him by his common English name, God.” – Abagond

https://abagond.wordpress.com/2007/05/28/god/

Nope, you are putting your propensity to lie on display again. God is simply a title, it’s not the Most High God of Israel’s name. There is a big difference!

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on Mon Jul 23rd 2018 at 00:35:08 Everett F. Pomare

@blakksage, Abagond, others:

That’s all their Allah is. A rock. Plain and simple.

Did you know that the Kaaba was the building in which all their idols were kept? It’s true. Allah was one of over 300,000+ gods worshipped by the Arabs, and in the case of Mecca, was its patron god.

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on Mon Jul 23rd 2018 at 09:49:23 A Russian Nagpo

@Everett F. Pomare

It doesn’t matter what it was, it’s all about what it is now. Things from the past don’t exist.

And, again, all the three religions have a list of common prophets and stories.

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on Mon Jul 23rd 2018 at 18:08:22 Everett F. Pomare

@Nagpo

That’s because Muhammad plagiarized certain parts of the Bible when he was creating Islam. Same thing with Joe Smith’s Mormonism. They’re both some of the craziest, weirdest, cults in the world today. Some of their beliefs you could swear were taken out of a sci-fi novel, believe it or not. Did you know that the Book of Mormon says that the Jews who supposedly settled America were guided by an ancient GPS called “Liahona”? It’s true! Plus, both Muhammad and Smith incorporated traditional folk tales into their religions.

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on Mon Jul 23rd 2018 at 22:31:02 blakksage

And, again, all the three religions have a list of common prophets and stories. – A Russian Nagpo

That’s not true. Being an Israelite isn’t even a religion because it’s actually a chosen group of people with a particular culture guided by the principles laid out in the Book (the Bible). In fact, contained within the Book it tells them how to live, what to eat and a particular history which pertained only to them, not the entire world.

And it is prophesied by the prophets of the Most High what would happen to these people if they stepped out of bounds and didn’t obey their God through judgments if they failed to do so.

I’m sort of tied up right now, I’ll post more later as it pertains to “religion.”

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on Tue Jul 24th 2018 at 07:00:22 A Russian Nagpo

@Everett F. Pomare

‘Similar’ doesn’t mean ‘the same’, and Islam is not a ‘creation of Muhammad’, especially given all its branches and schools.

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on Tue Jul 24th 2018 at 07:53:43 A Russian Nagpo

@blakksage

Abraham = Ibrahim,

Erber = Hud,

Noah = Nûh ibn Lamech ibn Methuselah,

Moses = Musa,

Jesus = Isa bin Maryam,

etc, etc.

I am not sure which Israelites are you referring to, but if you state that a group of people are not religous yet they are ‘guided by the principles laid out in the Book’, then your statement is quite a contradiction by default.

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on Tue Jul 24th 2018 at 13:37:51 blakksage

“I am not sure which Israelites are you referring to, but if you state that a group of people are not religous yet they are ‘guided by the principles laid out in the Book’, then your statement is quite a contradiction by default.” – A Russian Nagpo

This is exactly the type of response that I expected from someone who purports to either know about the Book or may even have read a portion of it but yet, they still lack UNDERSTANDING.

To some extent, I pity you ….. I pity you because your language is trending towards being definitive in nature. However, at the same time, taking a step back to get a broader view at your post, it actually reeks of inconclusiveness and/or uncertainty.

Since you aren’t being a bona fide, Depends wearing jerk like TeddyBear up thread, allow me to help you out. Again, the Bible is a cultural book, not a religious book. Another thing to keep in mind is that all religions are manmade. In other words, religions are not inspired by the true, one and only Most High God of Black Israel.

“Many say the etymology of religion lies with the Latin word religare which means “to tie, to bind.” In other words, to hold you back from the truth. And in summary, my post is not contradictory at all.

http://www.academia.edu/4447360/Many_say_the_etymology_of_religion_lies_with_the_Latin_word_religare

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADgVRfH-NVo)

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on Tue Jul 24th 2018 at 14:51:38 Herneith

Lord!

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on Tue Jul 24th 2018 at 16:59:22 sharinalr

Everett F. Pomare

They’re both some of the craziest, weirdest, cults in the world today.”—How so? I grew up baptist and converted to LDS and the only difference is taking communion every Sunday versus once a month, wearing garments, and going to temple. If it is weird then so is the bible yall hold on too that pretty much practices the same thing. Difference is they use ancient practices today as opposed to Christians who want to be more modernized.

At the end of the day its a book of stories regardless of what religion you follow.

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on Tue Jul 24th 2018 at 17:41:46 blakksage

Matthew 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

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on Tue Jul 24th 2018 at 17:49:29 blakksage

For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of DEEP SLEEP, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is SEALED, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is SEALED: 12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I AM NOT LEARNED.”

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on Tue Jul 24th 2018 at 19:29:56 Everett F. Pomare

@Sharina

I see what you’re trying to say, however, I’d also like to eave you know that Baptists and LDS are two totally different things. Baptists are a Christian denomination, as are Catholics and Dutch Reformed. However, Mormons and Muslims are a different sports game altogether, my friend. For starters, in order for an outsider to attend service at a mosque or ward (Mormon church), he has to have an accompanying person who is a member of those religions. Also, when it comes to the big temples in Mormonism, they’ll only out you in if you have a special ID. Also, in order to convert, you have to go to a special interview, and after said interview, you go through a trial period to see if you REALLY want to convert or not. Now, while Mormonism might be a little more open to outsiders than Islam ever will be, that does not mean that they’ll accept everybody who wants to believe like Christianity does. Islam especially doesn’t take kindly to non-Arabs, and neither did Mormonism to non-whites, especially if they weren’t Americans. Keep in mind that it was only in 1978 that Mormons supposedly opened themselves to “all people”. Both religions have weird obsessions with outer-space (Islam with its meteorites and an afterlife in a star called “Firdaus”, Mormonism with its “get your own planet” and “Kolob” stuff), polygamy both here and in the hereafter, war in the name of their deity, and more. They also both share some really strange and esoteric rituals that would almost give the Masons a run for their money, too.

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on Tue Jul 24th 2018 at 20:21:38 Afrofem

@ Everett F. Pomare

“Islam especially doesn’t take kindly to non-Arabs…”

Really?

The five largest Muslim majority countries are all non-Arab:

#1 Indonesia

#2 Pakistan

#3 India

#4 Bangladesh

#5 Nigeria

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on Tue Jul 24th 2018 at 20:25:51 Afrofem

That is well over 863 million people outside of traditional Arab countries.

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/countries-with-the-largest-muslim-populations.html

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on Tue Jul 24th 2018 at 21:00:28 sharinalr

@Everett F. Pomare

“also like to eave you know that Baptists and LDS are two totally different things.”—Actually they are not. Both religions are christian denomination as LDS believe in God the eternal father and also Jesus christ. They don’t worship Joseph smith.

“For starters, in order for an outsider to attend service at a mosque or ward (Mormon church), he has to have an accompanying person who is a member of those religions.”–False. Prior to conversion I attended the ward of my own will. Not because another member of the ward was with me. In fact I have seen several people during the time of me being active attend of their own will to investigate and see what it was about.

“Also, when it comes to the big temples in Mormonism, they’ll only out you in if you have a special ID.”—Temple access is given to those who have a temple recommend and even being a member does not guarantee one. I mean it isn’t hard to get, but you have to be a member.

“Also, in order to convert, you have to go to a special interview, and after said interview, you go through a trial period to see if you REALLY want to convert or not.”—False again. I didn’t go through some interview to convert. When an individual is sure it is what they want is when they convert or is baptized. The interview is for temple recommends.

“Now, while Mormonism might be a little more open to outsiders than Islam ever will be, that does not mean that they’ll accept everybody who wants to believe like Christianity does.”–Not sure what you mean by this because they accept you just fine.

Islam especially doesn’t take kindly to non-Arabs, and neither did Mormonism to non-whites, especially if they weren’t Americans.”—In the past they didn’t due to racism, but the biggest conversion seems to be in non-American locations.

“Keep in mind that it was only in 1978 that Mormons supposedly opened themselves to “all people”.”—False again. The church was always open to all people, but it was 1978 when they supposedly allowed blacks to have priesthood again.

“Both religions have weird obsessions with outer-space (Islam with its meteorites and an afterlife in a star called “Firdaus”, Mormonism with its “get your own planet” and “Kolob” stuff)”—False. Never heard of any text or Mormon teaching speaking on Firdaus.

“polygamy both here and in the hereafter, war in the name of their deity, and more. They also both share some really strange and esoteric rituals that would almost give the Masons a run for their money, too.”—Again false. There is a sect of Mormonism that practices polygamy, but the main church does not. The church branched off years ago following the death of Joseph smith FYI. As to strange rituals, garments and temple practices are not really that weird.

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on Tue Jul 24th 2018 at 21:43:19 Everett F. Pomare

@Sharina

When I said “Firdaus”, i was referring to Islam, not Mormonism. Either way, that probably won’t serve your point, as Mormonism and Islam are really the same thing.

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on Tue Jul 24th 2018 at 22:27:34 Everett F. Pomare

@Afrofem

In order to be involved in either Islam or Mormonism, you basically have to be a member of that religion’s culture, and that culture alone. I challenge you all to enter a mosque one day. When you do so, will there be any blacks, Hispanics, or whites for you to see? The answer, most likely, is an absolute “no”. You won’t, not now, not ever. The only exception is if you have, say, a black man with an Arab wife, but that’s about it, since even then Muslims will never marry outside their race. It’s against the religion’s teaching (for the girls, technically; guys can supposedly marry out of the race, but even then for guys it’s practically not allowed either). Marriages are, per the rules of Islam, to be arranged, between cousins, and cousins alone. Any marriages outside of the family (even to other fellow Arabs who aren’t related) are not allowed. The same thing goes for Mormons, especially those who are more hard-core in their beliefs. There are Mormon towns in some of the deepest parts of Utah in which everyone living there is descended from just a handful of people. Also, in both religions, girls can often be married off to older relatives, even if they are underage. Do you remember how, around ten years ago, the government investigated a Mormon community on child-abuse that happened there? It was over in Texas, you know. Look up “YFZ Ranch” on the Net, and you’ll se what I mean.

Secondly, non-Arabs are only allowed into Islam on an extremely rare basis, so small that it’s essentially non-existent. When they are allowed in, they have to:

Change their name

Change their food and eating habits to those of the Arabs

Change their ways of dress

Change the language they speak at home to Arabic, and Arabic alone

Participate in all things Arab, including holidays

Plus, many more.

Also, to answer Sharina, the LDS only did what they did not because they wanted to be nice and end racism, but because of pressure, especially pressure from the government. For the majority of Mormon and Islamic history, you see, the federal government (Mormonism) and the international community (Islam) have been pressuring and pressuring, trying and trying, to get these religions to get rid of the cultic behaviors, polygamy, warfare in their deity’s name, and other things, to name a few. With Mormonism, it was always an eternal struggle for the government to bring Utah into its senses. It was always issue after issue, issue after issue, after issue, after issue with Utah, and it sometimes seemed as if the government was at a loss over what to do about Utah. The same goes with the Islamic nations. They’re basically Utah as well, but on a much grander scale. Did you know that when the early Mormons wanted Utah to become a part of America, the government only allowed them to do so on the condition they give up polygamy? It’s true, and they gave lip service to it, even though the reality is, polygamy is hard to get rid of in Utah because of Mormon mind-control over the people. There’s polygamy all over the place there, and it’s the same with the Arab nations. Even if the rest of the world wants the Muslim leadership to define marriage as between a man and a woman, no-one else, they won’t do it. And they never will, just like their counterparts in Utah. Polygamy is also all over the place in Muslim/Arab lands, too. Both religions say that the more women a man marries, the more rewards he’ll have in heaven.

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on Tue Jul 24th 2018 at 22:45:47 Afrofem

@ Everett F. Pomare

Marriages are, per the rules of Islam, to be arranged, between cousins, and cousins alone. Any marriages outside of the family (even to other fellow Arabs who aren’t related) are not allowed.

…non-Arabs are only allowed into Islam on an extremely rare basis, so small that it’s essentially non-existent. When they are allowed in, they have to:

Change their name[s]

Change their food and eating habits to those of the Arabs

Change their ways of dress

Change the language they speak at home to Arabic, and Arabic alone

Participate in all things Arab, including holidays

Plus, many more.

[…]the more women a man marries, the more rewards he’ll have in heaven.

Do you have a source to cite for all of your misinformation or have you just been binge watching Homeland?

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on Tue Jul 24th 2018 at 22:48:10 sharinalr

Everett F. Pomare

“serve your point”—My only point was to correct misinformation and point out that Mormonism is basically christianity. If Islam believes in God and Jesus christ then are they not also Christians? I mean isn’t christianity the belief in those two prominent figures?

Either way all read books with stories so.

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on Tue Jul 24th 2018 at 23:00:41 Everett F. Pomare

@Afrofem

If new person (rare) converts to Islam don’t have to change their names, then why is it that Cat Stevens and Cassius Clay went up and changed their names to “Youssef Islam” and “Muhammad Ali”, respectively? You do (if they let you in).

Also, the sources are all in the Islamic writings. Mormon ones, too.

For a good explanation of what happens when marriages to outsiders happen in Islam, watch “Not Without My Daughter”, starring Sally Field as Mrs. Mahmoudy. It tells the true story of a white American woman who married a Muslim guy (from Iran), had a daughter with him, and was essentially kidnapped by him during a trip to Iran that was originally supposed to be for two weeks in order for their daughter to get to know his side of the family. Under family pressure, he started treating Betty like any other Arabic/Muslim woman, to the point where it became abusive, and Betty and her daughter eventually found a native Christian couple who owned a clothing store. It is this couple who helped Betty and Mahtob (her daughter with the Arab guy) escape. Very interesting film! I encourage you to watch it sometime.

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on Tue Jul 24th 2018 at 23:02:26 Solitaire

@ Everett F. Pomare

“They also both share some really strange and esoteric rituals that would almost give the Masons a run for their money, too.”

The only reason you don’t consider baptism and communion strange and esoteric is because you’re an insider. Ritual drowning and ritual cannibalism is what they look like to outsiders.

“war in the name of their deity”

Christianity is guilty of this one as well.

““Also, in order to convert, you have to go to a special interview, and after said interview, you go through a trial period to see if you REALLY want to convert or not.”

That sounds like Catholicism.

“I challenge you all to enter a mosque one day. When you do so, will there be any blacks, Hispanics, or whites for you to see?”

Have you ever been in a mosque? I have, and I saw Muslims there of all races and colors, from all parts of the world.

“Muslims will never marry outside their race.”

Muslims are not a race any more than Christians are. It’s like you either didn’t read or didn’t understand Afrofem’s list. Do you realize that even in the Middle East, many Muslims are not Arab but Persian?

“Marriages are, per the rules of Islam, to be arranged, between cousins, and cousins alone. Any marriages outside of the family (even to other fellow Arabs who aren’t related) are not allowed.”

Where are you getting this from??? It is demonstrably untrue.

“Do you remember how, around ten years ago, the government investigated a Mormon community on child-abuse that happened there?”

As Sharina already explained to you, these are not mainstream Mormons but renegade offshoots. And I seem to remember quite a bit in the news about child abuse in the Catholic church, so what’s your point?

“Secondly, non-Arabs are only allowed into Islam on an extremely rare basis, so small that it’s essentially non-existent.”

Islam is a proselytizing religion and has been since the very first. Just like Christianity. They want people to convert. And millions upon millions of non-Arabs are Muslims.

“Change the language they speak at home to Arabic, and Arabic alone”

Not true — look at Malaysia for only one example. The nation is almost 100% Muslim but they didn’t give up their own language.

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on Tue Jul 24th 2018 at 23:21:51 Everett F. Pomare

@Solitaite

“They want people to convert”

No, they do not. They (Muslims) generally keep to themselves here in America. With Mormons, though, it’s a different story altogether. Mormons WANT to be your friend and be nice to you. Not the case with Islam, as their book even says that they aren’t even to have friendships outside of the Islamic/Arabic fold.

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on Tue Jul 24th 2018 at 23:28:44 sharinalr

@ Everett F. Pomare

I am inclined to ask where you are getting your information from? I know a black female christian who just married a Pakistani Muslim. Fully accepted and paid for by his family. If we talk Mormonism, then do note a great deal of couples in my ward are married to people of different denominations. Why make up falsehoods about religions?

“the LDS only did what they did not because they wanted to be nice and end racism,”—Won’t say this is entirely false, but also can’t say it is true. Blacks were already priesthood holders prior to the change. In 1832 Elijah Abel was the first black man to hold priesthood and following his death racism took over which later lead to ban on blacks holding priesthood.

“Did you know that when the early Mormons wanted Utah to become a part of America, the government only allowed them to do so on the condition they give up polygamy.”—Utah was considered part to the US in 1848. Mormons arrived in Salt Lake, not all of Utah, in 1847. There were territories within the state already occupied. Not to mention Mormons are big on following the law of the land type stuff so the pressure to give up polygamy was the result of following the law or risk yet again more prosecution and being ran out of the state like in Missouri.

Now you believe this is in Islamic and Mormon writing, but do quote the versus that support your beliefs and explain why there is such contradictions between what you believe and the actions many who practice these religions are taking.

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on Tue Jul 24th 2018 at 23:31:07 sharinalr

correction persecution*

http://www.blacklds.org/history

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Utah#Prehistory

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on Tue Jul 24th 2018 at 23:48:37 Everett F. Pomare

@Sharina

Sorry to break it to you, but you seem to be parroting Mormon propaganda. I encourage you to study REAL Mormon history, and not what your leaders tell you. Mormonism has historically seen the peoples of color as inferior, you know, and good old Uncle Joe taught that God’s people were to be “white and delightsome”. Plus, Mormonism teaches that the reason darker races exist is because Satan and his compatriots disobeyed the Mormon deity, and for that reason, the god of Mormonism turned their skins dark. For further confirmation, check out the story of the Lamanites in the Book of Mormon. The Mormon diety turned them dark, too because of disobedience. Either way you look at it, Islam and Mormonism are both some of the most racist (if not the most racist) belief systems out there.

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 00:03:29 Everett F. Pomare

@Sharina

Also, Muslims are not permitted to date. It’s in the religion’s rules. Like I said above, their marriages are arranged. If a boy or girl (especially a girl) refuse the person whom they are told/promised to marry, the consequences can be ugly. Read the local news, and you’ll see what I mean.

Here is a link:

https://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/crime/article/Parents-who-allegedly-threw-hot-oil-on-teen-12781825.php

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 00:18:20 Solitaire

@ Everett F. Pomare

“Mormonism has historically seen the peoples of color as inferior, you know, and good old Uncle Joe taught that God’s people were to be “white and delightsome”. Plus, Mormonism teaches that the reason darker races exist is because Satan and his compatriots disobeyed the Mormon deity, and for that reason, the god of Mormonism turned their skins dark. For further confirmation, check out the story of the Lamanites in the Book of Mormon. The Mormon diety turned them dark, too because of disobedience. Either way you look at it, Islam and Mormonism are both some of the most racist (if not the most racist) belief systems out there.”

And this is different from the rest of Christianity how?

Are you familiar with the story of Noah’s sons?

How often in the Bible is “white” used to mean holy and pure?

How many black denominations in the U.S. broke away from white-majority denominations where they were treated with blatant racism? I know that’s how and why the A.M.E. was founded.

“They (Muslims) generally keep to themselves here in America.”

If they do, it’s for self-protection in a hostile environment. But like I said, I’ve been to mosques. There is one in particular that holds an open house twice a year so non-Muslims from the community can visit and have their questions answered and get to know their Muslim neighbors. I don’t call that keeping to yourself; I call that community outreach.

I’ve known many Muslims from all over the world. I’ve known American-born Muslims, some who were converts (white and black) and some who were children or grandchildren of immigrants. None of them were standoffish or unfriendly. Many were not Arabs. I’ve known a number of Muslim Americans in mixed-race or mixed-ethnic marriages.

Have you ever even met any Muslims, or are you basing all your statements on the Movie of the Week?

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 00:20:21 Solitaire

“Like I said above, their marriages are arranged. If a boy or girl (especially a girl) refuse the person whom they are told/promised to marry, the consequences can be ugly.”

That is more cultural than religious. The same thing happens in Hindu families.

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 01:01:55 Everett F. Pomare

@Solitaire

Christianity is not Mormonism and Islam, and Islam/Mormonism (the same thing, really), aren’t Christian, despite what Sharina would have you believe. Yes, it is cultural, but it’s also religious. Like I said, these people don’t like to mix with those who are not like them. We respect that. You can’t change them, it’s how they are and how they’ve been taught.

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 01:02:06 sharinalr

@Everett F. Pomare

“Sorry to break it to you, but you seem to be parroting Mormon propaganda.”–Sorry to break it to you, but much of what I learned of the church was not based on what I was taught in it. My own experiences basically contradict what you say and this is coming from a person who no longer follows.

“I encourage you to study REAL Mormon history, and not what your leaders tell you”—Or I can just redirect you to my first response so you can stop assuming where my information came from. I never listened to leaders because following never suited me.

“Mormonism has historically seen the peoples of color as inferior, you know, and good old Uncle Joe taught that God’s people were to be “white and delightsome”.Plus, Mormonism teaches that the reason darker races exist is because Satan and his compatriots disobeyed the Mormon deity, and for that reason, the god of Mormonism turned their skins dark.”—Nice deflection, but never denied what was eventually taught in the church. I.E. racism, but as per the link that was not what Joseph smith taught. Funny though this is also what Christians taught. In fact this idea came from a christian convert to the church who helped to push this idea. Mormon deity is actually God the eternal father which is in Mormon pray or Jesus Christ. LDS aka the church of jesus christ of latter day saints. So who is this other God you believe they are worshiping.

“For further confirmation, check out the story of the Lamanites in the Book of Mormon. The Mormon diety turned them dark, too because of disobedience. Either way you look at it, Islam and Mormonism are both some of the most racist (if not the most racist) belief systems out there.”—This is the scripture in regarding the lamanites:

“Behold, the Lamanites have I cursed, and I will set a mark on them. . . . I will set a mark upon him that mingleth his seed with thy brethren, that they may be cursed also. . . . I will set a mark upon him that fighteth against thee and thy seed” (Alma 3:14–16).

While it was likely taught that it was based on skin, this verse says nothing of skin and only that they were marked. Same as the bible with the curse of Cain.

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 01:02:43 sharinalr

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/book-mormon-second-nephi-doctrinal-structure/7-lamanite-mark

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 01:05:42 sharinalr

@Everett F. Pomare

Most of the local news I know of rarely mentions Muslims period and your one story is any different from the handful of stories I could pull showing christian extremist parents.

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 01:13:27 v8driver

Lol at our last spot in the deep hood the mormons came to bring me the book of mormon, in response to an ad for a free book on fb. It was kind of comical. I haven’t read it yet.

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 02:24:53 Solitaire

@ Everett F. Pomare

“Christianity is not Mormonism”

Mormons do believe in the Bible, in God the Father, in Jesus the Son of God, and in eternal salvation for those who believe. From where I’m standing, they look as much like narrow-minded monotheists as the rest of Christianity.

“Islam/Mormonism (the same thing, really)”

No, they aren’t:

Islam and Mormonism both originate in the Abrahamic tradition; Mormonism differs from Mainstream Christianity for being Non-trinitarian. However, whereas Islam insists upon the Eternity, complete Oneness and Uniqueness of God (Allah), Mormonism asserts that the Godhead is made up of three distinct “beings”, each of which is referred to as “a god”. Furthermore, its doctrine of Eternal Progression asserts that God was once a man, and that humans may become gods themselves. All of this is emphatically rejected by Islam, which views these doctrines as polytheistic, sinful, and idolatrous, totally the opposite to the revelation of the Qur’an and the teachings of Muhammad, the final prophet of Islam.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_Mormonism

“Yes, it is cultural, but it’s also religious.”

Then how come the exact same behavior occurs in families that aren’t Muslim?

“Like I said, these people don’t like to mix with those who are not like them.”

Like I said, I’ve been mixing with “these people for over 35 years and they don’t seem to care that I’m not like them. There are currently three Muslim families in my immediate neighborhood. Their kids love to play with my cats.

You still haven’t answered my question of whether you’ve ever met or spoken to a single Muslim, much less stepped foot in a mosque.

“You can’t change them, it’s how they are and how they’ve been taught.”

Wow, what a way to other an entire population.

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 02:27:42 Afrofem

@ Everett F. Pomare

Your comments about Islam and LDS read like stereotypes, biased news stories and anti-Muslim and anti-LDS propaganda thrown in a pot and stirred into a toxic stew of bigotry.

There are over one billion Muslims globally. Most of them live in non-Arabic countries like Indonesia and Nigeria. Their local customs run the gamut from women in full body covering veils in Saudi Arabia to tight pants and sleeveless shirts in Senegal. In Pakistan, both Muslims and Christians eat according to strict halal dietary laws, whereas in parts of Indonesia people will eat some things that could eat them first like local python snakes. Snakes are not halal.

I saw the film, “Not Without My Daughter”, starring Sally Field as Mrs. Mahmoudy. Most of it was maudlin anti-Iranian propaganda. Lots of stereotypes and flag waving.

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 03:32:40 Everett F. Pomare

@Solitaire

To answer your question, I have, yes, dealt with a Muslim person before, and she and I had a fairly good friendship (I even had a slight crush on her at one point as well). Her name was Sabah Abbasakoor, by the way, and she was a pretty nice person, too. However, I have not seen her since April of last year, and do not know what became of her. Considering the fact that she was around my age (a year younger than me, though), and knowing her culture, it is very likely she has already gone to the “old country” to be married off to a young man promised to her. Most of what I know about these people comes from her.

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 03:53:21 Everett F. Pomare

@Afrofem

It’s not “bigotry”. It’s simple facts. Either way, Mormonism and Islam are both idiotic cults, perhaps the most idiotic and stupid ones out there. Praying to a rock in Mecca won’t do anything for you, and neither will revering a warlord and con-man, either. I’m sorry. You all are simply parroting Islamic and Mormon nonsense.

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 05:35:11 Afrofem

@ Everette F. Pomare

“Mormonism and Islam are both idiotic cults… You all are simply parroting Islamic and Mormon nonsense.”

You have been expressing opinions, not facts. Opinions that are a mishmash of the bigoted anti-Muslim propaganda that floats around this culture.

You’ve made profoundly ignorant statements about Muslim beliefs and practices. Plus you don’t seem to know the difference between Arabs and non-Arabs (Iranians for example). You did not seem to know that most of the world’s Muslims were non-Arabs.

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 05:45:03 sharinalr

@ Everette F. Pomare

“You all are simply parroting Islamic and Mormon nonsense.”–Funny considering that I provided atleast two sources to support the so called “nonsense” while you basically failed to support anything you said. Your opinions would appeal to people who are ignorant of Islamic and Mormon practices and have an anti- stance to both.

At the end of the day, Mormons fit perfectly with their brethren in Christianity.

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 06:17:28 Solitaire

@ Everett F. Pomare

I am sorry that you lost contact with your friend, and I really do hope she hasn’t been forced into an unwanted marriage. But over the years I have seen a number of college students, both male and female, who faced a similar situation where their parents wanted to arrange a marriage for them. Some of these students were Muslim, true, but an equal number (probably more) were Hindu. Some were Buddhist, some were Sikh, and some in fact were Christian. What they all had in common was not religion but coming from parts of the world where arranged marriages are still the norm.

The observation I would make to you is that knowing one Muslim and basing the majority of your understanding on that is like knowing only one Christian and letting that form your idea of Christianity. If that one person was a Baptist, they would give you a very different picture of Christianity than if they were a Quaker or Catholic or Orthodox or Coptic.

Just like there are many denominations of Christianity, there are different branches of Islam. There are also differences from culture to culture, from nation to nation. Even different mosques will take different approaches, just like some Christian congregations are more liberal or more conservative.

I don’t think it does any good to denigrate anyone’s religion to the extent of calling them idiotic. People who are raised in a religion see it as truth, with a deep and abiding faith. And all religions look idiotic if you take a step back and try to observe it the way an outsider does. This is admittedly very difficult to do with one’s own religion, and I think it is why so many people of all faiths have such intolerance towards other religions and such huge blind spots about their own.

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 06:33:18 Solitaire

@ Everett F. Pomare

“Plus, both Muhammad and Smith incorporated traditional folk tales into their religions.”

You might want to take a look at this book:

https://rowman.com/ISBN/9780847691975/Holy-Writ-as-Oral-Lit-The-Bible-as-Folklore

http://articles.latimes.com/1999/mar/13/local/me-16868

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 08:04:54 A Russian Nagpo

@blakksage

‘…allow me to help you out…’ – to help out of and into what?

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 12:38:11 Everett F. Pomare

@All, Sharina

Mormonism is not monotheistic in the least! Not even close! Islam isn’t, either! Both technically believe that there are millions and billions of gods out there, and that Allah (known to Mormons as “Heavenly Father”) is just one of many gods.

Did you know that even the Qur’an admits this? It’s true:

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Allah_the_Polytheist

In the examples given in the link, Allah swears by multiple other deities and objects, such as the moon.

Mormon polytheism:

http://www.top10craziestmormonbeliefs.com/a/285

Like it or not, Uncles Joe and Moe have been conning folks for a long time, and they’re even better at now that they’ve been dead for many years. Just ask Muslims. Muhammad was probably better at swindling folks, to a certain extent, than Joe Smith was.

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 15:00:49 Solitaire

The ancient Canaanite city-state of Ugarit is of utmost importance for those who study the Old Testament. The literature of the city and the theology contained therein go a very long way in helping us to understand the meaning of various Biblical passages as well as aiding us in deciphering difficult Hebrew words. Ugarit was at its political, religious and economic height around the 12th century BCE and thus its period of greatness corresponds with the entry of Israel into Canaan.

Why should people interested in the Old Testament want to know about this city and its inhabitants? Simply because when we listen to their voices we hear echoes of the Old Testament itself. Several of the Psalms were simply adapted from Ugaritic sources; the story of the flood has a near mirror image in Ugaritic literature; and the language of the Bible is greatly illuminated by the language of Ugarit….

The prophets of the Old Testament rail against Baal, Asherah and various other gods on nearly every page. The reason for this is simple to understand; the people of Israel worshipped these gods along with, and sometimes instead of, Yahweh, the God of Israel. This Biblical denunciation of these Canaanite gods received a fresh face when the Ugaritic texts were discovered, for at Ugarit these were the very gods that were worshipped.

El was the chief god at Ugarit. Yet El is also the name of God used in many of the Psalms for Yahweh; or at least that has been the presupposition among pious Christians. Yet when one reads these Psalms and the Ugaritic texts one sees that the very attributes for which Yahweh is acclaimed are the same for which El is acclaimed. In fact, these Psalms were most likely originally Ugaritic or Canaanite hymns to El which were simply adopted by Israel, much like the American National Anthem was set to a beer hall tune by Francis Scott Key. El is called the father of men, creator, and creator of the creation. These attributes are also granted Yahweh by the Old Testament….

In 1 Kings 22:19-22 we read of Yahweh meeting with his heavenly council. This is the very description of heaven which one finds in the Ugaritic texts. For in those texts the sons of god are the sons of El.

Other deities worshipped at Ugarit were El Shaddai, El Elyon, and El Berith. All of these names are applied to Yahweh by the writers of the Old Testament. What this means is that the Hebrew theologians adopted the titles of the Canaanite gods and attributed them to Yahweh in an effort to eliminate them. If Yahweh is all of these there is no need for the Canaanite gods to exist! This process is known as assimilation.

Besides the chief god at Ugarit there were also lesser gods, demons, and goddesses. The most important of these lesser gods were Baal (familiar to all readers of the Bible), Asherah (also familiar to readers of the Bible), Yam (the god of the sea) and Mot (the god of death). What is of great interest here is that Yam is the Hebrew word for sea and Mot is the Hebrew word for death! Is this because the Hebrews also adopted these Canaanite ideas as well? Most likely they did.

One of the most interesting of these lesser deities, Asherah, plays a very important role in the Old Testament. There she is called the wife of Baal; but she is also known as the consort of Yahweh! That is, among some Yahwists, Ahserah is Yahweh s female counterpart! Inscriptions found at Kuntillet Ajrud (dated between 850 and 750 BCE) say:

I bless you through Yahweh of Samaria,
and through his Asherah!

And at El Qom (from the same period) this inscription:

Uriyahu, the king, has written this.
Blessed be Uriyahu through Yahweh,
and his enemies have been conquered
through Yahweh’s Asherah.

That Yahwists worshipped Asherah until the 3rd century before Christ is well known from the Elephantine Papyri. Thus, for many in ancient Israel, Yahweh, like Baal, had a consort. Although condemned by the prophets, this aspect of the popular religion of Israel was difficult to overcome and indeed among many was never overcome.

As had already been mentioned, one of the more important lesser deities at Ugarit was Baal. Baal is described as the rider on the clouds in KTU 1.3 II 40. Interestingly enough, this description is also used of Yahweh in Psalm 68:5.

In the Old Testament Baal is named 58 times in the singular and 18 times in the plural. The prophets protested constantly against the love affair the Israelites had with Baal (cf. Hosea 2:19, for example). The reason Israel was so attracted to Baal was that, first of all, some Israelites viewed Yahweh as a God of the desert and so when they arrived in Canaan they thought it only proper to adopt Baal, the god of fertility. As the old saying goes, whose land, his god. For these Israelites Yahweh was useful in the desert but not much help in the land.

There is one Ugaritic text which seems to indicate that among the inhabitants of Ugarit, Yahweh was viewed as another son of El. KTU 1.1 IV 14 says:

sm . bny . yw . ilt
The name of the son of god, Yahweh.

This text seems to show that Yahweh was known at Ugarit, though not as the Lord but as one of the many sons of El.

Among the other gods worshipped at Ugarit there are Dagon, Tirosch, Horon, Nahar, Resheph, Kotar Hosis, Shachar (who is the equivalent of Satan), and Shalem. The folks at Ugarit were also plagued by a host of demons and lesser gods. The people at Ugarit saw the desert as the place which was most inhabited by demons (and they were like the Israelites in this belief). KTU 1.102:15-28 is a list of these demons.

One of the most famous of the lesser deities at Ugarit was a chap named Dan il. There is little doubt that this figure corresponds to the Biblical Daniel; while predating him by several centuries. This has led many Old Testament scholars to suppose that the Canonical prophet was modeled on him. His story is found in KTU 1.17 – 1.19.

Another creature which has ties to the Old Testament is Leviathan. Isaiah 27:1 and KTU 1.5 I 1-2 describe this beast. Also see Ps 74:13-14 and 104:26….

Yet another interesting parallel between Israel and Ugarit is the yearly ritual known as the sending out of the scapegoats ; one for god and one for a demon. The Biblical text which relates this procedure is Leviticus 16:1-34. In this text a goat is sent into the wilderness for Azazel (a demon) and one is sent into the wilderness for Yahweh. This rite is known as a eliminatory rite; that is, a contagion (in this case communal sin) is placed on the head of the goat and it is sent away. In this way it was believed that (magically) the sinful material was removed from the community.

KTU 1.127 relates the same procedure at Ugarit; with one notable difference — at Ugarit a woman priest was involved in the rite as well.

http://www.theology.edu/ugarbib.htm

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 15:07:14 Afrofem

@ Solitaire

“I don’t think it does any good to denigrate anyone’s religion to the extent of calling them idiotic. People who are raised in a religion see it as truth, with a deep and abiding faith.”

Well said.

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 15:08:18 Solitaire

In his newest book, The Origins of Biblical Monotheism, [Mark S.] Smith tries to address this question, but from a different angle in regards to monotheism and polytheism. Beginning with the Ugaritic texts, Smith asks what is monistic about polytheism and how the answer to this question might help make the emergence of Israelite monotheism more intelligible. Ugaritic polytheism is expressed as a monism through the concepts of the divine council or assembly and in the divine family. The two structures are essentially understood as a single entity with four levels: the chief god and his wife (El and Asherah); the seventy divine children (including Baal, Astarte, Anat, probably Resheph as well as the sun-goddess Shapshu and the moon-god Yerak) evidently characterized as the stars of El; the head helper of the divine household, Kothar wa-Hasis; and the servants of the divine household, who include what the Bible understands to be “angels” (in other words, messenger-gods).

This four-tiered model of the divine family and council apparently went through a number of changes in early Israel. In the earliest stage, it would appear that Yahweh was one of these seventy children, each of whom was the patron deity of the seventy nations. This idea appears behind the Dead Sea Scrolls reading and the Septuagint translation of Deuteronomy 32:8-9. In this passage, El is the head of the divine family, and each member of the divine family receives a nation of his own: Israel is the portion of Yahweh. The Masoretic Text, evidently uncomfortable with the polytheism expressed in the phrase “according to the number of the divine sons,” altered the reading to “according to the number of the children of Israel” (also thought to be seventy). Psalm 82 also presents the god El presiding in a divine assembly at which Yahweh stands up and makes his accusation against the other gods. Here the text shows the older religious worldview which the passage is denouncing.

By some point in the late monarchy, it is evident that the god El was identified with Yahweh, and as a result, Yahweh-El is the husband of the goddess, Asherah. This is the situation represented by biblical condemnations of her cult symbol in the Jerusalem temple (evidently) and in the inscriptions mentioned above. In this form, the religious devotion to Yahweh casts him in the role of the Divine King ruling over all the other deities. This religious outlook appears, for example, in Psalm 29:2, where the “sons of God” or really divine sons or children are called upon to worship Yahweh, the Divine King. The Temple, with its various expressions of polytheism, also assumed that this place was Yahweh’s palace which was populated by those under his power. The tour given by Ezekiel 8-10 suggests such a picture. This picture of royal power was further developed with the monotheism of the eighth to the sixth centuries. The other gods became mere expressions of Yahweh’s power, and the divine messengers became understood as little more than minor divine beings expressive of Yahweh’s power. In other words, the head god became the godhead.

http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/MSmith_BiblicalMonotheism.shtml

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 15:13:06 Afrofem

@ Sharina

I think E.F. Pomare is making more and more ridiculous arguments just so he won’t have to admit his lack of knowledge about Islam or LDS.

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 15:20:37 Solitaire

[A]s scholars like Frank Cross, Chris Rollston, Mark Smith and others have demonstrated and have known for some time, the earliest texts in the Hebrew Bible give a strong indication that the early conception of Yahweh was that he was an ancient Near Eastern tribal deity. As I argue in my book, following Rollston, the Song of Moses in Deuteronomy 32 indicates that Yahweh was believed to have been one of the children of the Canaanite deity El Elyon (God Most High). The song describes how the nations were originally formed, and what it says is that the peoples of the earth were divided up according to the number of El Elyon’s children (the junior members of the divine pantheon). Yahweh, Israel’s patron deity, was one of Elyon’s children.

The best evidence suggests that Yahweh did not begin as the “only true God” of later Jewish monotheism; he did not begin as the creator of the world. Yahweh began as a young, up-and-coming tribal deity whose prowess among other gods mirrored Israel’s aspirations vis-a-vis surrounding tribes and nations.

[Interviewer:] You’re saying God evolves in the Old Testament?

Exactly. Surprise of surprises, as Israel aspired to greatness and sought to make a name for itself, surrounded by vast empires, Yahweh got bigger and bigger, until he became so grandiose in their theologies that it no longer made sense to refer to the other national deities as gods at all — so vastly superior was Yahweh to the gods of other nations, according to Judean propaganda literature.

Tell us more about this evolution from tribal deity to monotheism.

Well as Chris Rollston argues, there are various stages in Israel’s progression from polytheism to monotheism. Yahweh begins as a junior member of the divine pantheon. This is the view during the tribal confederation period of Israel’s history. After Israel became a monarchy, Yahweh gets a promotion to head of the pantheon, taking his father Elyon’s place. (This parallels similar ideas in Babylonian literature, in which Marduk’s ascendancy to king of the gods mirrors the rise of the Babylonian empire.)

Over time, Yahweh and Elyon are conflated, they sort of merge into one god. At this stage Yahweh starts to be seen as creator-god. But in this period, Israel still believes in other gods; it’s just that they’re not supposed to worship other gods because they owed their allegiance to Yahweh, their patron deity. Of course, Yahweh was believed to have had a wife, Asherah, and it is clear that Israelites worshiped her as Yahweh’s consort.

This seems to have been acceptable orthodoxy until the seventh century BCE or so. At that point, prophets like Jeremiah began to polemicize other gods, calling into doubt their very existence. This idea that Yahweh alone is God is solidified during the Babylonian exile in the sixth century for a complex set of reasons. This is when official Israelite religion finally became monotheistic.

And early on, the chosen people practiced human sacrifice? Let’s hear it. What’s your evidence?

Well the evidence is complex, and I lay much of it out in my book. But the short version is that human sacrifice was a rare but widespread practice in ancient Near Eastern religion, and there is evidence that until about the seventh and sixth centuries BCE, it was an acceptable part of Israelite and Judean religion as well. There’s the story of the near-sacrifice of Isaac by his father Abraham. It is popularly believed that because an angel prevented Abraham from killing his son at the last moment, the story constitutes a condemnation of child sacrifice. But that’s not the case. Isaac is spared not because human sacrifice is seen to be immoral, but because Isaac was the child of promise and needed to survive. In reality, the account depends upon the logic of human sacrifice, because Abraham is praised for his willingness to kill his own son to appease Yahweh.

There is evidence that ancient Israelites believed that human sacrifices could be offered to Yahweh in exchange for victory in battle against their enemies. The Israelite warrior Jephthah sacrificed his virgin daughter to Yahweh in fulfillment of a vow he made in order to secure Yahweh’s help in battle. The same ideology can be seen in some early accounts of the Canaanite conquest, in which Yahweh gives Israelites victory against Canaanite armies, and the Israelites in turn slaughter all of the women and children in payment to Yahweh for his aid.

There’s also evidence that Yahweh commanded human sacrifice in the law of Moses. Later, when the practice of human sacrifice fell into disrepute among elite circles, the prophet Ezekiel confirms that Yahweh commanded human sacrifice, but interprets that command as a form of punishment for Israel’s disobedience. Ezekiel needed a way to deal with that tradition found in Exodus 22, and did so by claiming that Yahweh ordered them to kill their firstborn sons as a way of getting back at them for their lack of faith in him. Obviously Ezekiel’s solution to the problem was problematic in itself, but at least we can thank him for helping to put an end to the institution of child sacrifice in Israelite religion.

I’ve heard evangelicals explain that the reason God prescribed scorched earth policies in the Old Testament was because the surrounding nations were so evil — that they practiced child sacrifice. (God sent warnings; they didn’t heed them.) Is this just a desperate attempt to justify the unconscionable?

Yeah, well that justification is in the Bible itself, in texts that were written or edited after the institution of child sacrifice fell into disrepute. But the reality is that Israelites practiced child sacrifice too. As I argue in chapter 6 of my book, the real motivations for the conquests were much more nefarious. It had more to do with land and the consolidation of political power than anything else.

Wouldn’t most Christians and Jews find this shocking?

Of course, and rightly so. It is shocking. I was shocked. But what I find even more shocking is the fact that some believers go to such great lengths to try to defend these genocides and moral atrocities. The same people who preach against the evils of abortion in the name of absolute, objective morality throw their absolute, objective morality out the window in order to defend the child-murders of an ancient tribe who thought they were doing the will of God. That’s what’s most shocking to me.

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/777340

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 15:41:25 Everett F. Pomare

@Afrofem, Solitaire, all others

It is true the Jews practiced polytheism at various points in time, as any good reading of the Bible will show you. However that doesn’t mean that Yahweh was “just another pagan god”. He wasn’t. The Bible itself says that Yahweh is the one and only God, and besides him, no others exist. Wrong again!

By the way, regarding racism in Islam and Mormonism, here are few quotes by early Muslim and Mormon leaders on folks unlike them:

You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable, sad, low in their habits, wild, ad seemingly without the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be and the Lord put a mark on him, which is the flat nose and black skin.

~Joseph Smith

<

blockquote> Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.

<

blockquote>

~Brigham Young

Now we are generous with the Negro. We are willing that the Negro have the highest kind of education. I would be willing to let every Negro drive a Cadillac if they could afford it. I would be willing that they have all the advantages they can get out of life in the world. But let them enjoy these things among themselves. I think the Lord segregated the Negro and who is man to change that segregation?

~Orson Pratt

<

blockquote> You should listen to and obey, your ruler even if he was an Ethiopian (black) slave whose head looks like a raisin

[Blacks are] pug-nosed slaves

~Muhammad

[Non-Arabs] are the worst of creatures.

<

blockquote>

I think the Lord segregated the Negro and who is man to change that segregation?

Plus many more.

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 15:43:50 Everett F. Pomare

@All

Last part of my comment accidentally repeated a quote. Sorry.

The final quotation I have on the above comment regarding Islam comes from Chapter 98, verse 6 of the Koran, by the way.

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 16:04:53 Everett F. Pomare

@All

If Mormonism and Islam are not “the same”, then please explain to me why Uncle Joe said once that he wanted to be a modern version of his old buddy Me from Arabia.

“I will be to this generation a modern Muhammad”

~Joseph Smith

Like it or not, both men had criminal records and were con-men before their cults began. Islam and Mormonism are the fantasy fairy stories of con-men and unsavory men who also abused underaged girls.

LikeLike
on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 16:08:36 Solitaire

The Bible also says:

Who is like you, Yahwah, among the gods?
Who is like you, majestic in holiness,
awesome in splendour, doing wonders?
(Ex. 15.11)

Yahweh executed judgements even against their gods.
(Num. 33.4)

When El apportioned the nations,
when he divided humankind,
he fixed the boundaries of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God;
Yahweh’s own portion was his people,
Jacob his allotted share.
(Deut. 32.8-9)

El came from Teman,
the Holy One from Mount Paran….
Before him went Deber,
and Resheph followed close behind.
(Hab. 3.3-5)

So now Yahweh, the god of Israel, has conquered the Amorites for the benefit of his people Israel. Do you intend to take their place? Should you not possess what your god Chemosh gives you to possess? And should we not be the ones to possess everything that Yahweh our god has conquered for our benefit?
(Jdg. 11.23-24)

Ascribe to Yahweh, O sons of gods,
ascribe to Yahweh glory and strength.
(Ps. 29:1)

God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment.
(Ps. 82.1)

You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you (Ps. 82.6)

There is none like you among the gods, O Lord,
nor are there any works like yours.
(Ps. 86:8)

If Islam has its roots in polytheism, so too do Judaism and Christianity.

To be a Muslim now, a person must affirm and believe that there is no God but God.

It isn’t fair to try to argue that Muslims are still polytheistic because of some old polytheistic roots in the religion’s past while ignoring similar polytheistic roots in Christianity’s past.

LikeLiked by 1 person
on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 16:09:49 Herneith

Do you have a source to cite for all of your misinformation or have you just been binge-watching Homeland?

I’ll go with binge- watching!

Very interesting film! I encourage you to watch it sometime.

I agree! I cull all my info from television, Netflix et al. I particularly get profound information from Bugs Bunny cartoons. I don’t need to read books or interact with anyone, not with these resources.

LikeLiked by 1 person
on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 16:18:59 Everett F. Pomare

@Solitaire

That’s because Islam IS a polytheistic pagan cult. Christianity is not. Islam is based on nonsense, as is Mormonism, which is really simply Islam for white people. Please don’t misunderstand me, I do not hate Muslims or Mormons. I really don’t. There are positives within the Arabic culture that are pretty cool, really, such as the hummus. They’re just brainwashed, that’s all.

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 16:22:05 Everett F. Pomare

@Solitaire

Not god but Allah, my friend. Of course, Muhammad plagiarized that one also, as he took that from a strange sect known as the Sabeans. All he added was the part about him being “Allah’s prophet”.

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 16:41:52 Solitaire

@ Everett G. Pomare

“That’s because Islam IS a polytheistic pagan cult. Christianity is not.”

Did you know that Muslims consider Christians to be polytheistic because of the Trinity?

LikeLiked by 1 person
on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 16:52:16 Solitaire

“There are positives within the Arabic culture that are pretty cool, really, such as the hummus.”

So they suck, their religion sucks, but they have some decent food? SMH.

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 16:56:01 sharinalr

@Afrofem

Yes and that is sad. He should take the information provided and learn about Islam and Mormons. People today exert too much hate for groups and all because they want to hold on to false information and fear.

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 17:10:02 sharinalr

@Everett F. Pomare

“Mormonism is not monotheistic in the least!”–Why oh Why pull a straw man? Who is arguing this? However, being monotheistic or polytheistic does not equate to not Christian. In fact, Catholics (Who are Christian) believe in a Godhead. Godhead refers to the holy trinity of God, the holy spirit, and Jesus. That same Godhead is the same Mormons believe. The difference is that Catholics see it all as one and Mormons see it as separate entities. Your link is a “I hate Mormons” answer forum. Not supporting your misinformation in the slightest.

“By the way, regarding racism in Islam and Mormonism”—Racism in the church was already established. However, I think it is dishonest to contribute your first quote to Joseph Smith when that is a quote from Brigham Young.

“You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable, sad, low in their habits, wild, ad seemingly without the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be and the Lord put a mark on him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then other curse is pronounced upon the same race – that they would be the “servant of servants;” and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree.”
Journal of Discourses, Volume 7, pages 290 291

http://www.truthandgrace.com/racism.html

I can find many more too. However, the people will succeed Joseph Smith which doesn’t contradict what was already said above.

“If Mormonism and Islam are not “the same”, then please explain to me why Uncle Joe said once that he wanted to be a modern version of his old buddy Me from Arabi.”—ROFL are you serious? How does that quote make both religions the same? If I liken myself as a modern day Ghandi then what? Now all my actions are to be the his? A person can act in a manner as another, but still not worship the same as another. MLK was said to be like Ghandi, but did they worship the same?

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 18:35:24 Everett F. Pomare

Here are some links that’ll clear your minds

“Mormonism and Islam” (full sermon. you don’t have to see the whole thing, only go in snippets. Pretty good!)

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-FlSFFMESU)

“Both Mormonism and Islam are Racist Ideologies”

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H8UyMqz41M)

Whether you wish it or not, Mormons and Muslims just ain’t Christians. You all just wish to keep “circulating the tapes”, and believe the propaganda they spew. Well, sorry, but real theology will never buy into their foolishness! Same goes for any other cult, like the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

LikeLike
on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 18:49:25 Everett F. Pomare

@Sharina

Did you know that Joe Smith was a convicted sex offender in addition to being a con-man? It’s true. He was chased out of areas (rightfully so) not just because of his foolishness, but because of his ways with women, especially other men’s wives and underage girls? It’s true. Joe’s youngest wife wasn’t even old enough to consent, and the same goes for Uncle Moe as well. Muhammad’s youngest was a nine-year-old, ladies and gents! Now, if you think that Joe Smith and Muhammad were somehow the world’s best citizens, you are seriously mistaken. Seriously mistaken. They weren’t. Both Smith and Muhammad were evil in every sense of the word. Evil men. Plus, both established the most ruthless dictatorships known to man, perhaps, second only to old Germany (Medina and Nauvoo). Both committed murder of their critics (Muhammad because of someone writing a poem which made fun of him, Smith because of a newspaper article that exposed him for who he really was). Also, Smith committed voter fraud when he ran third-party. It’s all in the history. Look it up if you don’t believe me, because it is there.

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 19:20:14 Everett F. Pomare

@Solitaire

I never said that they (Arabs) “sucked”. I never said that, and never will. That’s mean to say. However, they are brainwashed, as are most white people in Utah and Mormons in general, especially Mitt Romney, Sharina’s favorite politician. I think Mitt’s a great conservative, but i would never vote for him because he seems to take orders from his handlers in Utah, and not the people.

Here’s a WaPo article on one Arab pastor’s Christian mission to help his race:

(https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/as-old-line-southern-baptist-churches-struggle-a-dying-one-has-an-epiphany/2015/05/30/b0662e82-058d-11e5-bc72-f3e16bf50bb6_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.4e637f6e60ae)

It’s not their fault they’re in these cults. I like Arab people and white Utahns. I really do, but their ancestors made a dumb choice by following the whims of weirdoes.

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 19:35:44 sharinalr

@Everett F. Pomare
Did you know that Joe Smith was a convicted sex offender in addition to being a con-man? It’s true.”—Did you know this is your God knows how many deflections in an effort to escape the fact that you being trying to sell falsehoods to anyone that will listen? At any rate, please feel free where I quoted this love or grand admiration for Joseph Smith? I never once put a position of perfect or close to it. However, if you now want to scream sex offender, then source it. I don’t mean yet another “I hate Islam and mormons” forum. I mean actual documentation by women of that time period. And before you scream not possible, there are books by women who were involved with church leaders during that time. I read some snippets of a few.
“He was chased out of areas (rightfully so) not just because of his foolishness, but because of his ways with women, especially other men’s wives and underage girls? It’s true.”—What is also true is during that time period most men were married or involved with married women or underaged girls. For Catholics I wager that underage boys were in danger and unprotected by the law.
In 1880, the age of consent was set at 10 or 12 in most states, with the exception of Delaware where it was 7.[2] The ages of consent were raised across the U.S. during the late 19th century and the early 20th century.[3][4] By 1920 ages of consent generally rose to 16–18 and small adjustments to these laws occurred after 1920. The final state to raise its age of general consent was Hawaii, which changed it from 14 to 16 in 2001.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_the_United_States#History
“Smith because of a newspaper article that exposed him for who he really was).”—False. He actually had the newspaper shut down.
* Joseph Smith, as mayor of the town of Nauvoo, Illinois, had ordered the destruction of the facilities producing the Nauvoo Expositor, a newly established newspaper set up by a group of non-Mormons and people who had seceded from the church. The newspaper’s first (and only) issue was deeply critical of Smith and other church leaders—reporting that Smith was practicing polygamy and claiming he intended to set himself up as a theocratic king. In response, Smith declared the paper a public nuisanceand ordered its press destroyed.*
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Joseph_Smith

“Also, Smith committed voter fraud when he ran third-party.”—False. A warrant was issued for banking fraud. Voter fraud was actually carried out by non-Mormons in Gallatin to try to prevent Mormons from voting.
“It’s all in the history. Look it up if you don’t believe me, because it is there.”—The sad reality is that I have been looking this stuff up. Notice the ability to provide sources and your failure to do so. Maybe it is time you look it up.

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 19:40:44 sharinalr

@Everett F. Pomare

“Mitt Romney, Sharina’s favorite politician. “–How so? I didn’t vote for Mitt and I don’t like or trust politicians. Word of advice…When you assume you make an a** out of U…U..and only U.

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 19:51:40 Solitaire

@ Everett F. Pomare

“That’s mean to say.”

Do you think it’s not mean to say to Sharina that her religion is a cult of weirdoes, nonsense, idiotic, stupid, and strange?

Is that kind?

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 19:55:51 Solitaire

@ Sharina

Yes, it’s really weak to use the child sexual abuse argument out of context, when at that time the legal age of consent in the U.S. (and Britain) was so low. Child marriage and child prostitution was rampant by today’s terms.

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 20:01:24 Everett F. Pomare

“The Prophet [Muhammad] engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, “Best wishes and Allah’s Blessing and a good luck.” Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah’s Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.”
~Aisha, Muhammad’s youngest wife, and victim of his abuse.

As for your other friend, Joe Smith, the church, under pressure, ADMITTED a few years back that their founder was pedophile and sex offender:

(http://www.116pages.com/2016/08/evidence-that-joseph-smith-was-sexual.html)

Like it or not, BOTH men were sexual predators! The facts prove it!

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 20:03:06 sharinalr

@Solitaire

“Do you think it’s not mean to say to Sharina that her religion is a cult of weirdoes, nonsense, idiotic, stupid, and strange?”—No worries. I became inactive almost two years ago because the church became the typical Christian gala. I used my higher education journey as my excuse not to be there.

Another thing is got a bitterness from some of the women because of my progression. Only a handful of us had or was working towards degrees past a bachelors. Some admired it and longed to progress further, but I had others who would happy congratulate and then try to manipulate me into putting church priorities first. I took that as a “trying to hold me back” move and left. I am more spiritualist now.

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 20:07:55 Everett F. Pomare

@Solitaire

No, it isn’t. It’s being blunt and not watering stuff down. I am stating truth. Whether we want to admit it or not, Sharina’s brainwashed. I am sure even Abagond himself knows the silliness of Mormonism and Islam. He’s a very smart man, after all. Mormonism is stupid, plain and simple, and you have to be a certain kind of stupid to keep believing the crap they distribute. Same goes for Islam. They’re both crap, folks, Religions of crap!

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 20:09:58 sharinalr

@Everett F. Pomare

READ YOUR SOURCE. It is a blog post from some nobody and the quotes from books they used to support their beliefs are so ridiculous a 5th grader could have snooped that out.

Prime example. The author claims 12. Joseph would prey on the vulnerable and orphans” then quotes,

Sisters Emily and Eliza Partridge lost their father in 1840. They were hired by the Smith family to live in their home and help care for the Smith children. By 1842 Smith had married both sisters.

How in all high heck does not equate to preying on the vulnerable and orphans?

Another 3. “Joseph told his victims that HE would be killed if THEY didn’t comply.”

“During the third and final appearance, the angel came with a drawn sword, threatening Joseph with destruction unless he went forward and obeyed the commandment fully.”*

Explain how anyone drew the conclusion that Joseph told his “victims” he would be killed if he didn’t comply when it clearly says if he does not obey the commandment?

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 20:16:06 sharinalr

@Everett F. Pomare

“Whether we want to admit it or not, Sharina’s brainwashed.”—Let me get this straight. I’m brainwashed because I was able to provide sources that debunk the inaccurate information you presented outside of a blog or Mormon based site. All while not once claiming a perfect Muhammad or Joseph Smith.

Word of advice. Brainwashed people make posts like you. 😉

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 20:16:43 Everett F. Pomare

@Sharina

Your cult founder was simply grooming them, which is one of the many tactics an abuser will use. Muhammad did the same with Aisha. They were both perverts either way. Sorry, but your cult is brainwashing you. Why not become a REAL Christian for a change, and not follow a religion, but, rather, a relationship? That is what real Christianity ultimately is. Joe and Moe can’t do anything for you. They’re dead. The real Jesus is still alive, and he rose from the dead. Joe and Moe could NEVER do that!

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 20:18:10 Everett F. Pomare

@Sharina

Muslims claim that Moe was the “perfect man”, and try to model their lives after what he did. Same with Mormons. Wrong again! But hey, you just believe the fake news out of everyone’s favorite diploma mill, BYU!

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 20:29:08 A Russian Nagpo

@Everett F. Pomare

I wouldn’t compare Mormonism and Islam as ‘two equal’ teachings, even from an earthly point of view. Comparing the Book of Mormon and al-Quran, the former definitely lacks the aesthetics of the Arabic verses and is redundant in plagiarism from Christian sources.

Quran demonstrates more independence in style — not to mention its aesthetics.

LikeLiked by 1 person
on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 20:30:01 Solitaire

@ Sharina

Good for you, not letting anyone hold you back or subvert your priorities!

I just hope it isn’t causing any riffs with your husband’s family. 😟

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 20:33:16 sharinalr

@Everett F. Pomare

“Sorry, but your cult is brainwashing you. Why not become a REAL Christian for a change, and not follow a religion, but, rather, a relationship? That is what real Christianity ultimately is. Joe and Moe can’t do anything for you. They’re dead. The real Jesus is still alive, and he rose from the dead. Joe and Moe could NEVER do that!”—This is what happens when you are so brainwashed that you don’t read anything past what you want to believe.

I became inactive almost two years ago because the church became the typical Christian gala.

I am more spiritualist now.

This was said to solitare not even a hot minute ago, but far enough up to give you time to read prior to spewing nonsense.

https://abagond.wordpress.com/2018/07/19/amun/comment-page-1/#comment-402731

Mormons are real Christians. What you hate is that fact. You go on and on about Joseph Smith the man, but ignore that that church teaches the same darn thing you claim is REAL Christianity. Heck Islam teaches about the same GOD you claim is for REAL Christians.

“Wrong again! But hey, you just believe the fake news out of everyone’s favorite diploma mill, BYU!”—I am wrong so quote where I claimed that Mohammad or Joseph where perfect? Heck I brought up the racism and you tried to feed off of it. I never heard any of my Mormon or Islamic associates claim him as the perfect man. Newsflash dude. The quotes I used above was from your dang source. So BYU is good for you when you think it supports you?

https://abagond.wordpress.com/2018/07/19/amun/comment-page-1/#comment-402657

But here is the kicker. The ad hominem of claiming me as brainwashed won’t ruin my credibility when I have sources aside from youtube and blogs to support. Try again.

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 20:36:54 Everett F. Pomare

@Sharina

No, they ain’t. Los Mormones no son cristianos, Sharina.

(In case you don’t understand, let me say it in English: Mormons aren’t Christians. What part of that do you not get?)

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 20:37:34 sharinalr

@Solitaire

Oddly it hasn’t. We have literally become closer as a result. My husband, his brother, and father were inactive for years. My husband’s brother wife was never a member. We are thick as thieves since my choice. His mother and sister was disappointed but they got over it. I hold no ill will with the church, but it is very restrictive so I do caution people at times.

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 20:38:53 Solitaire

@ Everett F. Pomare

You want blunt truths? Christianity is just as much a load of crap. The only reason you’re so positive it isn’t is because you’ve been brainwashed since birth.

It started out as a weirdo cult. The only reason it got big is the Roman emperor converted and made it the imperial religion. And from that point on, Christianity was no longer a pacifistic religion but one of warfare, conquest, and domination.

I could slander Jesus and Paul the way you’ve been slandering Muhammad and Joseph Smith. Don’t have the stomach for it, but I will say that if Jesus even existed, he was either a charlatan or mentally ill. He got himself killed and his brainwashed followers couldn’t accept that, so they made up a fairy tale to convince themselves that it hadn’t all been a useless waste.

Your god is just as fake as anyone else’s.

LikeLiked by 1 person
on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 20:41:09 Solitaire

@ Sharina

That’s good to hear. Better in fact than my best expectations. I’m glad it’s strengthened your bonds.

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 20:41:47 sharinalr

Everett F. Pomare

Well according to this they are, so go pontificate to the wall.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_by_number_of_members#Restorationism_and_Nontrinitarianism_%E2%80%93_35_million

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 20:42:43 Everett F. Pomare

@Sharina

Here is what a REAL Christian pastor, Dr. Robert Jeffress, has to say about your cult and its cousin, Islam:

” think part of the problem is we’re in this consumer mentality as a church where we have the idea that our job is to build as big of a church as we possibly can. And if we get into that idea and fall into that trap, then we say then we can’t say anything that’s going to offend people. Why, if we preach that homosexuality is an abomination to God, we better not preach that because that’s going to offend the gays or people who know gay people. If we tell people what the Bible says, that every other religion in the world is wrong: Islam is wrong! It is a heresy from the pit of Hell. Mormonism is wrong! It is a heresy from the pit of Hell. Judaism, you can’t be saved being a Jew, you know who said that by the way? The three greatest Jews in the New Testament: Peter, Paul, and Jesus Christ. They all said Judaism won’t do it, it’s faith in Jesus Christ.”

Nice try, though!

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 20:44:50 Everett F. Pomare

@All

I incorrectly forgot to put the “I” in Dr. Jeffress’s quote. Here it is in full:

“I think part of the problem is we’re in this consumer mentality as a church where we have the idea that our job is to build as big of a church as we possibly can. And if we get into that idea and fall into that trap, then we say then we can’t say anything that’s going to offend people. Why, if we preach that homosexuality is an abomination to God, we better not preach that because that’s going to offend the gays or people who know gay people. If we tell people what the Bible says, that every other religion in the world is wrong: Islam is wrong! It is a heresy from the pit of Hell. Mormonism is wrong! It is a heresy from the pit of Hell. Judaism, you can’t be saved being a Jew, you know who said that by the way? The three greatest Jews in the New Testament: Peter, Paul, and Jesus Christ. They all said Judaism won’t do it, it’s faith in Jesus Christ.

LikeLiked by 1 person
on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 20:46:43 abagond

@ Everett F. Pomare

What is the difference between a cult and a religion? Is it like the difference between a thief and an empire?

LikeLiked by 2 people
on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 20:51:44 Solitaire

@ Everett F. Pomare

Here’s another blunt truth for you to chew on: your god is a bully and an abuser.

“Love me or I’ll condemn you to eternal torture” ???

That’s like someone telling you: “Be my friend or I’ll beat you up every day after school.”

That’s not real love, that’s compulsion through threats.

I have more respect for the Buddhists. At least they believe that all souls will eventually work through their imperfections and attain Nirvana.

LikeLiked by 1 person
on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 20:54:17 Everett F. Pomare

@Abagond

All religions are cults. There is no difference whatsoever. Real Christianity, though, is neither. That’s what I am trying to explain to Sharina the brainwashed Mormon and her compatriot, Solitaire.

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 20:57:27 Solitaire

If Christianity isn’t a religion, what is it?

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 20:58:01 Everett F. Pomare

@Solitaire

A relationship. Plain and simple.

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 21:21:16 sharinalr

Everett F. Pomare

“Here is what a REAL Christian pastor, Dr. Robert Jeffress, has to say about your cult and its cousin, Islam”–When opinions become fact then we can talk. Until then, TV pastors are not REAL Christian. I would think a REAL Christian would spend more time teaching of the Lord and less time spreading hate and being petty. Not to mention this guy tried to excuse Trump’s affair, no?

“Nice try, though!”—Honey I didn’t try. I did that thang. I am at that level where you prove my point about your level of brainwash. I can find thirty of your REAL Christian pastors in homeless shelters and they are more humble.

LikeLiked by 1 person
on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 21:48:05 Mary Burrell

@ Sharina: Ugh! at Jeffries he’s deplorable.

LikeLiked by 1 person
on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 22:16:32 Solitaire

@ Everett F. Pomare

Yeah, an abusive relationship with a violent and irrational control freak.

LikeLiked by 1 person
on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 22:18:45 Everett F. Pomare

@All

I never slandered either man. I was just stating facts. Muhammad and Smith were not the men you all have been taught they were. Plus, I question the veracity of Sharina’s claim of having been an ex-Mormon, as Mormons, like Muslims, are taught to lie to outsiders about their religion. In Islam it’s called “taqiyya”.

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 22:37:18 A Russian Nagpo

@Everett F. Pomare

Taqiyya is not about ‘lying’, it’s about a fake renunciation of one’s own faith under extreme circumstances, such as when a practitioners’s life has been threatened. There is nothing wrong in lying for the sake of own’s own (or, especially. the others’) life / lives.

I doubt anyone could tell now what kind of peiople Mr. Smith and Mr. Abu-l-Qassim had been, except of them both being dead.

And, no, I haven’t been taught about these two guys, nor can I understand this private Carthage campaign of yours here.

LikeLiked by 1 person
on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 23:07:29 Everett F. Pomare

@Nagpo

Taqiyya is indeed lying. Strictly speaking, it is deception in Islam’s name. Google “kitmaan” as well. It’s a similar concept.

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 23:34:41 sharinalr

@Mary Burrell

I never heard of the guy until now. Oddly enough one google search and wow. I take some issue with those get rich tv and radio pastors.

LikeLiked by 1 person
on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 23:42:08 sharinalr

@Everett F. Pomare

“I was just stating facts.”–I know society has taught people so that they confuse facts with opinion and that by say “stating facts” they are somehow credible.

Stating facts would require that you present information that is an indisputably. I.E. some type of credible source.

Stating an opinion is just presenting a formed view that isn’t based on a fact or knowledge of the subject matter. This is where you stand. So you can stop hiding your bigotry behind some false idea of “stating facts.”

” I question the veracity of Sharina’s claim of having been an ex-Mormon, as Mormons, like Muslims, are taught to lie to outsiders about their religion.”—So what doctrine teaches that? Not to mention I do believe I spoke a bit on my departure on earlier posts some years ago so….

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on Wed Jul 25th 2018 at 23:44:58 sharinalr

correction *indisputable not *an indisputably.

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on Thu Jul 26th 2018 at 00:27:55 Everett F. Pomare

@All

The stuff I’ve been saying has been confirmed by history, nothing else.

(https://www.google.com/amp/s/fox13now.com/2014/10/22/lds-church-issues-new-essays-on-polygamy-acknowledges-joseph-smith-married-teen-girl/amp/)
As. Far as someone who was from an Islamic backgrounds, I encourage to read “Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus” by Nabeel Qureshi. He was in that cult.

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on Thu Jul 26th 2018 at 00:28:18 A Russian Nagpo

@Everett F. Pomare

Taqiyya is different from Kitmaan and none of these two is a deception, because in either case a personal gain is excluded.

(Alternatively, you are entitled to to tell the all truth and nothing but the truth about your money and valuable possessions to thugs when asked in a dark isolated backstreet reputedly avoided by policemen).

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/deceive

LikeLiked by 1 person
on Thu Jul 26th 2018 at 03:08:09 sharinalr

@Everett F. Pomare

Read your source past the titles. According the the article I sourced here:

https://abagond.wordpress.com/2018/07/19/amun/comment-page-1/#comment-402725

In 1880 the age of consent was 10 to 12, so basically Joseph Smith and your REAL Christians were legally marrying underage girls. You aren’t providing anything new dude. The difference is people here know how to read in context not be brainwashed into accepting another’s agenda.

LikeLiked by 1 person
on Thu Jul 26th 2018 at 03:26:55 Everett F. Pomare

@Sharina

Last time I checked, ten year-olds could not consent. You must live on Mars or Pluto for you to be defending pedophilia like that.

By your logic, it’s alright for a grown man to have relations with a two year-old. That’s disgusting, and any sane person, even in those days, would’ve known that a grown man had absolutely, positively, NO BUSINESS with touching little girls (or any children) for that matter. You’re basically defending pedophilia, which is wrong on so many levels.

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on Thu Jul 26th 2018 at 03:54:47 Solitaire

@ Everett F. Pomare

Sharina is talking about the legal age of consent — that is, what the legislatures of the U.S. states and territories set into law.

Look at the table in this link:

http://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/teaching-modules/230?section=primarysources&source=24

In 1880, the legal age of consent in the U.S. was either 10 years old or 12 years old, except for Delaware where it was 7 years old. Seven!!

No, it wasn’t true that anyone back then would have thought it was wrong or disgusting, or else the congressmen and senators would not have passed these laws.

You realize this means in Delaware in 1880, it was legal for a man to have sex with a seven-year-old girl?

LikeLiked by 1 person
on Thu Jul 26th 2018 at 04:00:12 Solitaire

This isn’t defending paedophilia but putting your accusations about Joseph Smith into context. What he did was legal then.

It took a lot of work by a lot of women over many, many years to change these laws.

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on Thu Jul 26th 2018 at 04:01:27 michaeljonbarker

I just can’t picture Jesus in thousand dollar suits.

If Robert Jeffress was a “real christian” then he would follow the scripture and give his millions away.

He would wear the same clothes as the homeless, eat the same food as the homeless and live with the homeless just as Jesus would have done if he was around today.

“There is still one thing you haven’t done,” he told him. “Go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

“Dear children, it is very hard to enter the Kingdom of God. In fact, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!”

LikeLiked by 2 people
on Thu Jul 26th 2018 at 04:24:50 sharinalr

@Solitaire

“This isn’t defending paedophilia but putting your accusations about Joseph Smith into context. What he did was legal then.”—Exactly! But I think it would be perfectly acceptable for those “real Christians”.

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on Thu Jul 26th 2018 at 04:25:58 sharinalr

@Everett F. Pomare

Solitaire basically summed it up, but you do like to bring up history a lot so that is a little history for ya.

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on Thu Jul 26th 2018 at 04:28:56 michaeljonbarker

There is a difference between “age of consent” and pedophilia.

The age of consent began to rise during the late 1800’s because of women’s groups as Solitare pointed out. That said class and race played a role in how these laws were enforced. Working class women were sent off to “reformatory” while the men involved got a slap on the wrist. These laws were meant to protect upper class white girls and didn’t really apply to POC.

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on Thu Jul 26th 2018 at 04:56:36 Solitaire

Oh, heck. There’s a family story I grew up hearing about one set of great-great-grandparents. This would have been in the mid-1800s. Apparently he saw a little girl at a social gathering and declared, “When she’s old enough, that’s the girl I’m going to marry.”

Don’t know how old exactly she was at the time, but the story goes that he waited several years, and she was only 15 when they got married.

Everyone in my family held up that story as the most romantic thing ever. It was only when I got older that I realized “ewww …. squicky”

Interestingly, another thing that got handed down is she told all her daughters that she got married far too young and advised them not to follow her example. But I never heard that part of the story mentioned except when no men were present.

Better be sure to add that these were Methodists, not Mormons. 😉

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on Thu Jul 26th 2018 at 05:58:11 Solitaire

http://unsweetenedmagazine.com/mag/seduction-and-ruin-a-quick-history-of-the-age-of-consent/

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on Thu Jul 26th 2018 at 11:30:24 Everett F. Pomare

@Sharina

@All

So if the “age of consent” back then was seven back then, why is it that Aisha (Muhammad’s child wife) had this to say about him? Allow me to quote the following examples, from the Islamic historical records:
The Prophet [Muhammad] engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, “Best wishes and Allah’s Blessing and a good luck.” Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah’s Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.”

“The prophet and I used to take a bath from a single pot while we were junub. During the menses, he used to order me to put on an izar (dress worn below the waist) and used to fondle me. While in itikaf, he used to bring his head near me and I would wash it while I used to be in my periods (menses).”

“He had intercourse with me when I was 9 years old..”

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on Thu Jul 26th 2018 at 12:37:28 A Russian Nagpo

@Everett F. Pomare

The only ‘Islamic historical records’ applicable here are ‘khaddeeths’, or ‘hadiths’, Ar. pl. ”akhadeeth’, which, in turn, are divided by their validity, or ‘strength’.

To quote a haddeeth, one should also list some names of persons from and through which the saying has passed.

In other words, to give this as ‘an Islamic source’, you ought also give names of a person to whom it had been said, then, to whom it was retold, etc, etc.

Got any? Otherwise, this is not a haddeeth.

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on Thu Jul 26th 2018 at 12:42:15 A Russian Nagpo

@Everett F. Pomare

To make the things clear, I am not a Muslim, not even a practitioner of any Abrahamic religion, but my teaching says that one of the worst things is to tell followers of another religion anything that contradicts their faith or could result in them losing it, so please stop.

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on Thu Jul 26th 2018 at 13:27:46 sharinalr

@Everett F. Pomare

You really really really have an issue with context.

The age of consent in other parts of the world would likely be different. It could be less or it could be none.
Do you know what age of consent means? It is the age that one can consent to sexual intercourse. It says she was engaged at 6, but did not marry til 9. As she was given to him does not equate to intercourse.
“He had intercourse with me when I was 9 years old.”—No where is this in the Hadith and further it is out of place with the current language of other quotes that so happen to be in the Hadith.

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on Thu Jul 26th 2018 at 13:50:08 blakksage

“I just can’t picture Jesus in thousand dollar suits. – michaeljohnbarker

I concur, “a thousand dollars” seems to be a whole lot more than a little cheap, primarily because He wore fine linen with a golden belt, thus says the Bible.

Revelation 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

@All,

2 Nephi 5:21 21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

Islam — “Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) said, “You should listen to and obey, your ruler even if he was an Ethiopian (black) slave whose head looks like a raisin.” (Volume 9, Book 89, Hadith 256)

1493 Papal Bull (Catholicism) – “Out of our own sole largess and certain knowledge and out of the fullness of our apostolic power, by the authority of Almighty God conferred upon us in blessed Peter and of the vicarship of Jesus Christ, which we hold on earth, do by tenor of these presents, should any of said islands have been found by your envoys and captains, give, grant, and assign to you and your heirs and successors, kings of Castile and Leon, forever, together with all their dominions, cities, camps, places, and villages, and all rights, jurisdictions, and appurtenances, all islands and mainlands found and to be found, discovered and to be discovered towards the west and south, by drawing and establishing a line from the Arctic pole, namely the north, to the Antarctic pole, namely the south, no matter whether the said mainlands and islands are found and to be found in the direction of India or towards any other quarter, the said line to be distant one hundred leagues towards the west and south from any of the islands commonly known as the Azores and Cape Verde. With this proviso however that none of the islands and mainlands, found and to be found, discovered and to be discovered, beyond that said line towards the west and south, be in the actual possession of any Christian king or prince up to the birthday of our Lord Jesus Christ just past from which the present year one thousand four hundred ninety-three begins. And we make, appoint, and depute you and your said heirs and successors lords of them with full and free power, authority, and jurisdiction of every kind…” —Pope Alexander VI, “Inter Caetera”

After all is said and done, SOME Kneegroes of Amerika still have the nerves to follow these garbage religions/cults as opposed to following the Book that was given to them. Kneegroes have been completely destroyed, just as it is stated in Deuteronomy 28:48.

If you ask the average Kneegroe or the Dog Pile Machinery on this board what’s the importance of Kilauea’s fissure number eight, they cannot tell you.

If you asked them what is the significance of an ancient Pillar on the Saudi Arabian coast, in all likelihood they couldn’t tell you that to save their life.

If you’d ask them why doesn’t the Saudi Arabian government allow aerial flights over the Mountain of Moses within their border, they perhaps couldn’t tell you that either. I have no doubt that it will bring about the downfall of Islam.

But yet, some nincompoops still have the audacity to refer to someone’s faith as being a cult. (smh)

Me and other likeminded folks, we know what we worship. What about you, is it the Baphomet??

John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

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on Thu Jul 26th 2018 at 14:06:12 sharinalr

@Blakksage

“After all is said and done, SOME Kneegroes of Amerika still have the nerves to follow these garbage religions/cults as opposed to following the Book that was given to them”—You mean the book given to them by white men to make them good slaves?

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on Thu Jul 26th 2018 at 15:12:06 Solitaire

@ Everett F. Pomare

The idea that a child cannot give meaningful consent is (regrettably) a relatively new one, as is the idea that they should not simply obey their parents and marry who they are told.

There are still places today, and not just among Muslims or Arabs, where girls are married off before they are teens.

The first section you quoted could describe the experience of any young woman who is suddenly informed that she is to be married, regardless of her age. This experience has (unfortunately) been the rule more than the exception in most cultures.

There is considerable debate over Aisha’s age at her marriage:

Taking all known accounts and records of Aisha’s age at marriage, estimates of her age range from nine to 19.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2012/sep/17/muhammad-aisha-truth

Mary the mother of Jesus also most likely was very young when she was married to Joseph and when she gave birth. You might notice in the Bible account, Mary isn’t given a choice; the angel just announces her pregnancy to her and expects her to be pleased, even though it puts her at considerable risk of condemnation and even stoning to death for committing adultery.

LikeLiked by 1 person
on Thu Jul 26th 2018 at 16:00:10 michaeljonbarker

Pomare said,

“He had intercourse with me when I was 9 years old..”

The age of consent in Delaware was 7 years old in 1880. The U.S. was founded as a Christian country so I’m not sure what your point is.

http://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/case-studies/230?section=primarysources&source=24

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on Thu Jul 26th 2018 at 16:14:30 Herneith

The U.S. was founded as a Christian country so I’m not sure what your point is.

Neither does he.

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on Thu Jul 26th 2018 at 17:54:04 blakksage

”You mean the book given to them by white men to make them good slaves?” – sharinalr

What scripture are you referring to? For the record, I usually do not engage individuals with their vain opinions; their silly babblings or ignorant burbles.

You may insert the scripture here:

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on Thu Jul 26th 2018 at 18:43:57 sharinalr

blakksage

Scripture? Why does it require scripture ro know that the bible was handed to slaves to ensure they were good slaves.

“usually do not engage individuals with their vain opinions; their silly babblings or ignorant burbles.”—Are questions opinions? Are questions babbling or ignorant burbles? If you think so by what definition? However, you seem to engage in vain opinions, silky babblings, and ignorant burbles. Odd.

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on Thu Jul 26th 2018 at 18:44:37 sharinalr

to*

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on Thu Jul 26th 2018 at 20:08:19 blakksage

“Scripture? Why does it require scripture ro know that the bible was handed to slaves to ensure they were good slaves.” – sharinalr

Huh! The Bible is full of scriptures and you mean to tell me that you’re incapable of posting one scripture or historical event to support your claim. Your weak counter framing of the question/argument isn’t working.

Move on with your BS!

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on Thu Jul 26th 2018 at 20:32:12 sharinalr

@blakksage

Nice deflection, but I still will redirect you.

You stated “After all is said and done, SOME Kneegroes of Amerika still have the nerves to follow these garbage religions/cults as opposed to following the Book that was given to them”

This book you refer of is the bible correct? If not then back to my question. If so, then this is the same book that was used to ensure slaves remained good slaves. A scripture is not necessary to point this out. My claim can be supported by how this religion came to the indigenous and other non-white groups. White men did use the bible as a tool to get slaves to obey. If a source is your desire then here:

http://time.com/5171819/christianity-slavery-book-excerpt/

If you need more then that can be provided as well.

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on Thu Jul 26th 2018 at 20:41:40 Everett F. Pomare

@All

I’ll place more quotes from the Islamic sources here:

“The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with ‘Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).”
~Ursa, one of Muhammad’s companions, quoted in “Sahih Bukhari”.

Furthermore, we even have proof from the girl herself that he did more than just “it” with her. It was full-blown abuse, and yes, she was indeed unwilling. Observe:

“Narrated Sulaiman bin Yasar: I asked ‘Aisha about the clothes soiled with semen. She replied, “I used to wash it off the clothes of Allah’s Apostle and he would go for the prayer while water spots were still visible.”

“He (Muhammad b. Qais) then reported that it was ‘A’isha who had narrated this: Should I not narrate to you about myself and about the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)? We said: Yes. She said: When it was my turn for Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) to spend the night with me, he turned his side, put on his mantle and took off his shoes and placed them near his feet, and spread the corner of his shawl on his bed and then lay down till he thought that I had gone to sleep. He took hold of his mantle slowly and put on the shoes slowly, and opened the door and went out and then closed it lightly. I covered my head, put on my veil and tightened my waist wrapper, and then went out following his steps till he reached Baqi’. He stood there and he stood for a long time. He then lifted his hands three times, and then returned and I also returned. He hastened his steps and I also hastened my steps. He ran and I too ran. He came (to the house) and I also came (to the house). I, however, preceded him and I entered (the house), and as I lay down in the bed, he (the Holy Prophet) entered the (house), and said: Why is it, O ‘A’isha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you?…”

She is even beaten by her own father, Moe’s bestie, Abu Bakr (similar to Brigham Young many years later)

“Narrated Aisha:Abu Bakr came to towards me and struck me violently with his fist and said, “You have detained the people because of your necklace.” But I remained motionless as if I was dead lest I should awake Allah’s Apostle although that hit was very painful.”

There was another that I saw, but lost it.

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on Thu Jul 26th 2018 at 22:40:34 michaeljonbarker

Blacksage asks,
“You may insert scripture here:”

1 Peter 2:18
“Slaves, be willing to serve your masters. Do this with all respect. You should obey the masters who are good and kind, and you should obey the masters who are bad.”

^ Be a “good” slave.

Collasians 4:1
“Masters, show justice and fairness to your slaves, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven.”

^ Reinforces a hierarchy based on presumed human value.

Ephesians 6:5
“Slaves obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ.”

^ Slaves just need Jesus.

Galatians 3:28
“There is no Jew nor Greek, there is no slave nor free, there is no male and female. For you all are one in Christ Jesus.”

^ Reminds me of people who claim not to see race. Thus “I’m not racist”. Similarly I may be your Master but we are one with Christ and “our” religion commands that you serve me.

Titus 2:9-10
“Slaves are to be submissive to their own masters in everything; they are to be well-pleasing, not argumentative, not pilfering, but showing all good faith, so that in everything they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior.”

^ A good Christian slave is not a thief and through obedience glorifies God.

Luke 4:18
“The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to set free the oppressed.”

^ The New Testimate isn’t about real freedom for the poor and opprseesd but rather spiritual freedom within ones self. So you can be a slave and be free.

1 Timothy 6:1-2
“Let all who are under a yoke as a slave regard their own masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be reviled. 2 Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful on the ground that they are brothers; rather they must serve all the better since those who benefit by their good service are believers and beloved.”

^ You should work twice as hard for your good Christian slave masters.

Luke 12: 47-48
“And that servant who knew his master’s will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. 48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.”

The Old Testament goes into greater detail regarding the law and the treatment of slaves. The high priests who wrote the law were slave owners themselves.

American slaves were made to memorize these kinds of passages and told that God had chosen them to be slaves in this life, that this was Gods will.

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on Fri Jul 27th 2018 at 01:06:31 sharinalr

@Everett F. Pomare

I am still not getting your point. How is the accounts of Muhammad any different or worse than Christian leaders? What you account is gross and sad, but also within legal rights for the time period and sadly what was practice regardless of religion.

This, sadly, is happening today. https://www.salon.com/2018/03/11/banning-child-marriage-in-america-an-uphill-fight-against-evangelical-pressure/

What cult leader is pushing these men to believe that dating and marrying underage girls is okay? Can’t blame Muhammad. Can’t blame Joseph Smith.

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on Fri Jul 27th 2018 at 02:41:59 Everett F. Pomare

@Sharina

Kids getting married to older men is wrong any way one looks at it. Plain wrong. I think we can all agree on that, no?

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on Fri Jul 27th 2018 at 02:48:30 sharinalr

@Everett F. Pomare

We fully agree on that no doubt.

LikeLiked by 1 person
on Fri Jul 27th 2018 at 05:02:37 Afrofem

@ Everett F. Pomare

“I’ll place more quotes from the Islamic sources here:”

What Islamic sources?

Where?

Provide links?

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on Fri Jul 27th 2018 at 12:14:50 Everett F. Pomare

@Afrofem

“[Muhammad] used to sit on my lap and recite the Koran whilst I was in menses”
~Aisha

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on Fri Jul 27th 2018 at 20:26:20 michaeljonbarker

I think that while white supremacy and slavers used the Bible and Christianity to subdue and control slaves I don’t think that the Black community should reject Christianity necessarily.

Black churches within communities bring cohesivness and seem to be the strongest protection against white supremacy.

I am also going to presume that Black churches themselves are docterinally diverse.

Maybe Abagond can do a post on the “Black church”.

Polygamy in America isn’t just contained within some LDS and Islamic communities. Some within the Black Isrealit movement propose that as well.

I think for most of us the ideas of polygamy, patriarchy ect hold negative connotations. But I think that women should have that choice if they choose to be a part of those kinds of communities.

(https://youtu.be/fNV9OZaopUY)

LikeLiked by 1 person
on Fri Jul 27th 2018 at 21:35:27 Afrofem

@ Everette F. Pomare

In other words, you don’t have any credible sources to link to for your quotes. Just personal opinions and empty commentary (per usual).

LikeLiked by 1 person
on Fri Jul 27th 2018 at 23:01:32 Everett F. Pomare

@Afrofem

Here they are:

“The Tragedy of Aisha”

(https://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Tragedy_of_Aisha)

“Muhammad and the Clinical Definition of Pedophilia”

(https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muhammad_and_the_Clinical_Definition_of_Pedophilia)

General excerpts from the Islamic ahadith:

(https://sunnah.com/search/?q=Menstruation)

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on Sat Jul 28th 2018 at 01:51:20 michaeljonbarker

@Pomare.

Thats not legitimate source material. That site was created by people with an angenda against Islam.

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on Sat Jul 28th 2018 at 16:34:03 sharinalr

@michaeljonbarker

I agree. Abagond should consider a post on black churches, but I am not sure it would go smoothly as it can be quite controversial.

Blacks being christian is a choice and one they should freely engage in without judgement. I don’t view black Christians in a harsh light. However, from what I have seen of Christianity in my community it is toxic. There is a church here that gives there all to ensure pastor has a new Mercedes. Many give everything to the church and nothing in return but a well cared for pastor. This is an issue in the LDS church as well and can be added to the other reason I was secure in leaving. Granted with LDS the church wards are still well cared for but they often use a lack of funds as a reason to intimidate members into paying tithing too.

As a added note. My close friend was told if she followed the lord then he will forgive her for being a single mother and she can turn her life around. This was by black Christians. She has trouble have kids and she is married.

LikeLiked by 1 person
on Sat Jul 28th 2018 at 16:53:45 Everett F. Pomare

@Sharina

The reason why the LDS wards are cared for the way they are is because they aren’t owned by the congreation itself, like most non-Catholic Christian churches are, but, rather, by the Mormon system itself. Also, if you’re a Mormon, you have to attend the congregation that’s within your zone, just like a public school. You can’t just go to whichever one you want to, like other worship houses.

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on Sat Jul 28th 2018 at 17:00:33 Afrofem

@ michaeljonbarker

“Maybe Abagond can do a post on the “Black church”.

Sharina beat me to my greatest criticism of the Black Church: economic exploitation. Many Black preachers treat religion as a hustle. It is a way for some un- or under-educated Black persons to make lots of money and enjoy high status.

The Black Baptist churches of my childhood also had lots of problems with sexual impropriety on the part of the pastors (and deacons). They often preyed on all the women of the church who were still of childbearing age. Then the women were lambasted for falling prey to charismatic authority figures. It was sickening.

Polygamy in America isn’t just contained within some LDS and Islamic communities. Some within the Black Isrealit[e] movement propose that as well.

Some Black Israelites also advocate mass murder and rape to establish a hyper-violent society based on ancient Hebrew societies.

I think for most of us the ideas of polygamy, patriarchy ect hold negative connotations. But I think that women should have that choice if they choose to be a part of those kinds of communities.”

I agree women who want to be a part of those types of relationships and communities should be able to exercise choice: choice to get in and choice to get out————without hindrance, emotional manipulation or violence. At this point in time, a lot of women in Christian patriarchy and polygamy cults don’t have that freedom of choice.

Even among “enlightened” people who practice polyamory, there can be lots of emotional and social manipulation to keep women subjugated in those “open” relationships.

View at Medium.com

LikeLiked by 2 people
on Sat Jul 28th 2018 at 17:06:31 Afrofem

Note: you have to click on the title to get to the article.

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on Sat Jul 28th 2018 at 17:35:04 Solitaire

@ Afrofem

The article that Sharina linked to in her comment here

https://abagond.wordpress.com/2018/07/19/amun/#comment-402810

mentioned a woman named Sherry Johnson who is working to stop child marriage in the U.S.

The article said that she was raped as a child by both her church’s bishop and deacon, got pregnant by the deacon when she was only 10, and was coerced into marrying him at the age of 11.

That article didn’t mention race, and it wasn’t until I googled to read more about her that I found out she was black and her abusers were from a black Pentecostal church.

Thought I would mention this since it ties into what you wrote above. Of course, this type of abuse is perpetrated by religious leaders of all races. I just was struck by her story and how incredible it is that she was able to make her way out of that and is now trying to prevent the same thing from happening to other girls.

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on Sun Jul 29th 2018 at 01:18:34 Afrofem

@ Solitaire

I’m so very un-surprised by Sherry Johnson’s experience. You are correct that sexual impropriety, rape and abuse of all types are found among religious leaders of all races.

I read a blog where survivors of the Christian Patriarchy Quiverfull movement gather to share their experiences. It is called No Longer Quivering. Some of their comments make your hair stand on end. They consider themselves “spiritual abuse survivors. They spend a lot of time commenting on some of the extreme stances of contemporary Christian Patriarchy leaders and bloggers who are overwhelmingly White.

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on Sun Jul 29th 2018 at 01:21:15 Afrofem

@ Sharina

I finally read that article you linked to about underage marriage. It was pretty terrifying that governors and legislatures are so swayed by Evangelicals that they kill commonsense bills to ban child marriage in the USA.

Thanks.

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on Sun Jul 29th 2018 at 02:55:44 Solitaire

@ Afrofem

I’m familiar with No Longer Quivering although I don’t frequent it regularly.

If Everett has objections to Mormons and Muslims based on their marriage practices, I wonder what he would think of the Quiverfull movement.

Although I don’t think they have ever admitted it, the family in “19 and Counting” is almost definitely Quiverfull, and they had some sexual abuse come to light within their own family.

And these same Quiverfull families often practice very harsh physical punishment of the children as well.

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on Sun Jul 29th 2018 at 06:11:23 Afrofem

@ Solitaire

…Quiverfull families often practice very harsh physical punishment of the children as well.

Yes, that would be the influence of the Pearls. They advocate harsh punishment of infants as young as nine months old. It is a rigid and violent subculture.

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on Sun Jul 29th 2018 at 13:10:36 Everett F. Pomare

@Solitaire

“19 Kids and Counting” is that show about the Duggar family. It’s been off the telly for three years now, though they did do a little spinoff with a few of the sisters called “Counting On”. What basically happened was that back in the early 2000s, their oldest son, Josh, acted inappropriately towards his sisters whilst he was reading them a story. Mr. and Mrs. Duggar were not at home at the time. The police ended up becoming involved, and there WAS a police report filed, I think, but all Josh got was a big warning and a sendoff to some reform school. He has also been found to cheat on his wife through some website called Ashley Madison. I wonder if any of you all have heard of this. In fact, there was “Law and Order” episode based on this. I think it’s called “Patrimonial Burden”.

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on Sun Jul 29th 2018 at 13:46:09 Herneith

Folks, can we agree? There are whack jobs in every religion. The trick is not being ensnared in one. That’s why reading and researching is fundamental, pun intended.

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