Black Pete (c. 1850- ), known as Zwarte Piet in Dutch, is the bumbling sidekick of Saint Nicholas (Sinterklaas) in the Netherlands. In parades he is played by White people in blackface.
Black Pete is a Moor who dresses like it is still the 1600s. He lacks intelligence, coordination and speaks broken Dutch. According to one song, you can trust him even though he is Black. He first appeared in children’s books in 1850, when the Dutch still had Black slaves. He was still called a slave into the 1930s, long after the Dutch had freed their slaves.
Every year on November 17th, Saint Nicholas arrives in the Netherlands on a boat from Spain. He travels the country with many Black Petes, some of them women. They give out candy and cookies to children at parades.
On December 5th, St Nicholas Day, Black Pete comes down the chimney to deliver presents for good children from Saint Nicholas. At least until 1928, he put bad children in his bag to take them away to Spain where they were made to pick oranges. He has nothing to do with Santa Claus, a US corruption of Sinterklaas.
White children love Black Pete. But he makes Black children feel left out. When they are called “Black Pete” it hurts, but they cannot say why.
In 2011, when Saint Nicholas arrived in Dordrecht, Quinsy Gario quietly wore a T-shirt that said “Black Pete is Racism”. The police knocked him to the ground, kneed him repeatedly, pepper sprayed him and dragged him away. He and fellow T-shirt wearers were arrested.
Others began to wear the T-shirt. Protests grew.
In 2013, the United Nations high commission on human rights wrote to the government saying that Black Pete:
“may constitute racism and may be degrading to members of those communities … and can perpetuate negative stereotypes within society.”
The prime minister said it was not for the government to tell people how to observe holidays.
Geert Wilders, whose anti-immigrant party was on top in the polls, said he would rather get rid of the United Nations than Black Pete.
In the media people said stuff like:
“Some black people like it.”
“How dare they take this celebration away from the children.”
“This is how it has always been and you just can’t go around changing things.”
“(Black) people are too sensitive.”
“These people have no sense of history.”
“We can’t let the minority tell us what to do.”
“Anyone who has a problem with Dutch traditions can go back to their
own country.”
On Facebook, a page in defence of Black Pete broke all Dutch records for number of likes, over 2 million in a country of 17 million.
His defenders say his Black appearance comes from chimney soot. That does not account for his nice, clean clothes, bright red lips or Afro-style hair.
In 2015 when Saint Nicholas arrived, he was met by hundreds of protesters. But this time several of his Black Petes were not in blackface at all – they just had soot on their faces.
– Abagond, 2015.
Sources and images: The Telegraph (2015), stnicholascenter.org (2014), The Economist (2013), The Telegraph (2013), Examiner (2013), Feminist at Sea (2013), zwartepietisracisme.tumblr.com (2011).
See also:
- blackface
- Saint Nicholas
- other beloved racist symbols:
- Santa Claus (US)
- Rihanna and the N-word – more “clueless” anti-Black racism in the Netherlands
- Grada Kilomba on racism in Europe
612
I remember hearing about the guy on an episode of ‘The Hughleys’.
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I’ve spent a lot of time in Nederland and always found it odd how many people defend Zwarte Piet. This is the same country that takes people to court for inciting racism:
Dutch Penal Code, Article 137c
“He who in public, either verbally or in writing or image, deliberately offends a group of people because of their race, their religion or beliefs, their hetero- or homosexual orientation or their physical, psychological or mental handicap, shall be punished with imprisonment not exceeding one year or a fine of the third category. “
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Being Dutch, I might give some additional information here.
However, the debate in the Netherlands on this issue is very ill-tempered. One side basically claims that “All Dutch are racists; it is in their nature.” The other side claims the “the Dutch aren’t racists. Anyone claiming otherwise can go back to their
own country.”
None of these statements make any sense. And I prefer to keep out of discussion which do not make sense.
Meanwhile, I’ve seen plenty black kids wearing Black-Pete-costumes last month; I don’t think any black kid in the USA would wear any minstrel-show clothing nowadays.
By the way, the part “He lacks intelligence, coordination and speaks broken Dutch.” isn’t correct anymore.
Moreover, I never heard Black Pete was a slave; as far as I know he was a servant. Could you provide me a link for that, Abagond?
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Interestingly in Germany we have a similar figure. “Knecht Ruprecht” is also imagined as “black”, so not with black skin colour but with dark cloth and black hair. That leads me to believe that Zwarte Piet was like that orignaally and got his racial features only later on.
We also have the figure of “Schwarzer Peter”, the literal translation fo Zwarte Piet. But Schwarzer Peter has nothing to do with St. Nikolaus, instead is a card in a game and sometimes metaphorically used for bad luck. I have seen him portrayed both as an African or a chimney sweep. I don’t know if the chimney sweep is a politically correct replacement of the African or if both existed simultaniously. One should note that chimney sweeps have always be associated with Africans. For example the German title of Hans Massaquoi’s book “Destined to Witness: Growing Up Black in Nazi Germany” was “Neger, Neger, Schornsteinfeger” (negro, negro, chimney sweep), a german nursery rhyme.
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This is just ugly. End of story.
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@Kartoffel
“Knecht Ruprecht” is also imagined as “black”, so not with black skin colour but with dark cloth and black hair. ”
Somehow that doesn’t stop people in Germany from using blackface to portray Knecht Ruprecht.
“One should note that chimney sweeps have always be associated with Africans. ”
Always? Hardly.
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Jeff Elberfeld,
Meanwhile, I’ve seen plenty black kids wearing Black-Pete-costumes last month; I don’t think any black kid in the USA would wear any minstrel-show clothing nowadays.
Linda says
Funny enough, I was talking about this not to long ago with a few black/brown friends I have from Curacao and Suriname, who went to high school in the Netherlands.
I had wanted to know how they felt about Zwarte Piet and the 2 mixed-race people from Suriname said they felt “conflicted and embarrassed” because
they would participate in the activities but to reconcile the story and image of Piet to themselves, they tried to see him as a “cartoon”
For us Caribbeans, I think there is a lot of internalized feelings involved when it comes to race and no one wants to feel like an outsider of the group.
The black woman from Curacao basically said, “it doesn’t bother me so much because historically Piet was African, and I’m Dutch, so it’s not really about black people as a group”
For this type of brainwashing, I almost had no words–I couldn’t believe it was said but I understand it. (Before coming to the USA, I probably would have said something just as stupid.)
but it was after being in London that I recognized that
When white people say “British”–they mean white European
When white people say, “Dutch”– they mean white European
when everyone is trying to be politically correct, then we all pretend that saying someone is “British or German” includes everyone, regardless of colour.
As a Jamaican, who has lived in England and Germany, what I’ve learned is that
Arabs, Caribbeans, Africans, Indian descendants will always be seen as foreigners in Europe, no matter what their passport says
(or if parents/grandparents were born in the country, or even if 1 parent is white)
Black and mixed-race people in Europe very much want to drink the kool-aide and Assimilate
because they very much want to feel and be accepted as “European” by their white countrymen.
so yes, black children will participate in Zwarte Piet festivities because their white classmates participate and the black children think of themselves as “Dutch” first and black second (or 3rd, 4th, etc)
[NOTE: Bulanik liked this comment by accident. – Abagond.]
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Ok, I wasn’t aware of that. I’ve seen blackface only in the portrayal of one of the three kings. According to google image search Knecht Ruprecht is sometimes depicted as an African.
By always i meant sometimes in the last two centuries. The association exists.
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@Linda: Great post and gives me much to ponder about this ugly subject. It good to live and travel abroad to broaden ones mind about the world and how it works especially in regards to race and socioeconomic issues. Insightful and incisive post.
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Reblogged this on Raimanet.
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@Mary Burrell “It good to live and travel abroad to broaden ones mind about the world and how it works especially in regards to race and socioeconomic issues.” Yes. I agree. You learn that no matter where you go, white people are the same. Only the spoken language is different.
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This reminds me of the Tintin in the Congo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tintin_in_the_Congo) controversy in Belgium. It’s a canonical episode of Tintin published in 1931 that is incredibly racist. The series is beloved by all in Belgium and other countries, so people complaining retroactively about it gets them upset. Like it should be exempt from today’s standards of civility because tradition.
I can see both sides of the argument though ultimately I come down on the nix it side. On the one hand, it’s very impolite to go to somebody’s house and then tell them you’re offended by something in their house that they enjoy and hold dear and expect them to change it so that you’re not offended anymore… in their house. But on the other hand, we’re not talking about temporary guests here, and they should feel welcome and not ridiculed in their adopted home.
Thought experiment – what if you went to somebody’s house and saw something offensive that their kids were enjoying.. would you antagonize your host about it? Or would you just silently wince and enjoy your friends’ otherwise pleasant company and then go home, maybe shaking your head a little. Or would you flip out and tell his kids he’s racist and that it needs to go right away. I dunno that’d be kind of grating. But again we’re not talking temporary guests. Maybe it’s more like if you visited Iran and saw Death To America billboards (they exist), what would you do? Rick Steves the travel guy on PBS shows that in the episode he goes to Iran. He didn’t let it ruin his trip nor did he lecture his host on it. Just interesting how you might deal with something that offends you in somebody else’s culture.
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@ Everyone
MERRY CHRISTMAS – Happy (and safe!) Holidays
🙂
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https://www.tintup.com/t/Kwamla-1362510660
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http://atlantablackstar.com/2015/12/08/belgian-dutch-official-dresses-in-blackface-as-black-pete-and-is-offended-that-youre-offended/
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Seasons Greetings and Joyous Winter Solstice to everyone
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@ Jeff
Source:
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@ Remy
Those are hugely misleading analogies. Black children growing up in the Netherlands are not foreigners. The Netherlands is not their “adopted” home – it is their home. Rick Steves can always go back to the US. They have nowhere to go back to.
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This debate made me remember the Mexican cartoon character Memín Pinguín and a similar debate around it that took place, years ago, in some countries – including the USA – with some people arguing that it was an expression of racism against Blacks and others complaining that Black people were being too sensitive.
As it is in the present case with the Dutch Zwarte Piet character where its creators are claiming that it belongs to national traditions and must be seen and even be respected as such, also in the case of the Memín Pinguín character, the Mexican government (and the Mexican society also, probably!) came to defend that it as “innocent”, traditional and even good for use in instilling good moral values in children. (See the relevant Wikipedia article for more details and also the excellent video produced by Henry Gates Junior entitled Blacks in Latin America – Mexico and Peru, where, at some point he discusses it with a Black priest working in a Mexican village)
I understand that Blacks who live in those societies have ambiguous feelings regarding those characters and can’t escape the sensation that with those characters they are being ridiculed by the surrounding White society even when they try to rationalize away that sensation somehow (“It is about Africans, not me!”).
As an free African I don’t feel any anger towards those aspects of those essentially White or White dominated societies.
Actually, I feel sorry for them, because those traits of their culture, which put Black humanity in a position of ridicule (or close; the Memín Pinguín character is probably the most positive of them all, in that regard!), and the fact that they feel a strong need to preserve them, somehow expose the sins of their ancestors committed in the past against this same Black humanity.
In telling the stories around those characters and ridiculing Blacks, they go back mentally to the past where ridiculing Blacks was normal. Blacks were, then, inferior creatures, in slave-holding or colonial societies where their ancestors had all the power over Blacks and could inflict physical or psychological pain on them without fear of any reaction. But now, times have changed and Blacks are either citizens of self-governed spaces (Africa and some Caribbean societies) or free citizens of White societies that are obliged legally to extend to them the full respect that the rest of the people enjoy there.
Sticking to those old narratives where Black humanity remains object of ridicule they are exposing their nostalgia of a forgone time where they were really superior to Blacks, without a challenge. Today they feel challenges by Blacks and other people of color almost in every domain and they know already that the past cannot be resurrected. It’s gone, for good! Only the nostalgia remains!
When I look at them is like when I look at a drug addict after catching him in the act of his vice. He looks at me with a small smile in the face and I can see in it the shame, the remorse and a message “Please, Sir, understand, it’s not my will but I cannot avoid doing this; it’s bad I know“. I smile back and I can see that probably he understands my message back: “Don’t worry, I’m sorry for your vice that put you apart of us, and I can only hope that soon you can overcome it and come back to join the rest of a healthy humanity“
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At least until 1928, he put bad children in his bag to take them away to Spain where they were made to pick oranges. He has nothing to do with Santa Claus, a US corruption of Sinterklaas. – Abagond
Sigh! The cultural banditry, degradation, fixation and mockery continue without a cessation date in sight. Well, of course Sinterklaas is a US corruption of Santa Claus, exactly like a white (Edomite) St. Nicholas is also an inverted version of the real St. Nicholas. The REAL St. Nicholas was a Moor who lived during the 15th century in the country of what we now refer to as Turkey. St Nichols, an extremely spiritual man who had an unmatched affinity for the poor and especially children, hence the deserving title of Saint.
The REAL St. Nicholas didn’t send children to Spain to pick oranges, which was essentially a mild form of slavery, nor did he have a Wit Piet (White Pete) as a sidekick doing stupid $&!t.
The REAL St. Nicholas held fast to following biblical verse: Matthew 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
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Linda said: “so yes, black children will participate in Zwarte Piet festivities because their white classmates participate and the black children think of themselves as “Dutch” first and black second (or 3rd, 4th, etc).
Perhaps the black kids appealing and clutching to their Dutch heritage first as opposed to first accepting their own blackness is the problem. Obviously these kids you speak of are ahistorical!
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@Remy said: “Rick Steves the travel guy on PBS shows that in the episode he goes to Iran. He didn’t let it ruin his trip nor did he lecture his host on it. Just interesting how you might deal with something that offends you in somebody else’s culture.”
So, … are saying in essence that the host, whether its someone’s home or while visiting a foreign country should be exempt from common decency and therefore, has a right to be a total jerk-off?
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@ abagond
“Those are hugely misleading analogies. Black children growing up in the Netherlands are not foreigners. The Netherlands is not their “adopted” home – it is their home.”
This post reminds me very much of the Chief Illiniwek controversy at the University of Illinois. In that case, it was the original inhabitants of the land who objected to being the subject of a racist caricature. People responded with almost every argument you have on the list in this post. No one said, “You know, this is their house — let’s be good guests and stop making fun of them.”
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Blacks immigrated to the Netherlands. They are not indigenous.
You can’t really be both things.
Therefore, a foreign group has no right to protest an indigenous cultural symbol.
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I am also curious as to why you think Whites are not a foreign group in North America.
That’s because they are indigenous to Uranus.
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@Bobby M
Blacks in Netherlands do in fact have the right to protest. See Chapter 1, Article 9 of the Netherlands Constitution.
And not all black Dutch are immigrants. Many were born there.
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@ Kiwi
There will, of course, be no reply from Bobby M.
Even though it is quite clear through American history that Whites immigrated here, either on the Susan Constant, Godspeed and Discovery or upon the Nina, Pinta and Santa Maria.
It doesn’t matter that long wars were fought for the purpose of removing the original inhabitants from their lands and penning them in to “Reservations.” It doesn’t matter that for years the government paid men to kill the original inhabitants requiring their scalps to be brought in as proof of the body count (and therefore payment).
To Bobby M. the fact that White people had a more advanced technology erases any need to see themselves as immigrants to North America. The original people simple were not here because they did not have an equal level of technology.
Think for a moment on the absolute stupidity of that mindset!
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Pumpkin. On the one hand Pete is black, the absolutely canonical facts about him are:
1. He assists a Saint (most often Saint Nicholas, but he is also spotted in company of St.Martin and even St.Peter himself, the latter explains to the believers why he needs a nickname). 2. His name is Peter (Pete for short. 3. He is black, but his blackness is not defined or explained, so you get mismatches of appearances and origins. The chimney soot one might on a certain level reflect the traditional truth best (soot was used as face paint for disguise, before it became modeled after natural black ones).
2. It is a disguise, why is Santa not clean shaven? You could easily detect the true identity.
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Kwamla, the only thing Saint Nicholas and Christmas have in common is that they are celebrated in December, believe me, nobody who loves Saint Nicholas, as Saint or celebration will assume you can know enough about the topic to have a rational opinion about it, if you confuse it with something which happens about 20 days later. Christmas is just not related to St.Nicholas, except for that Satan type, hanging out with faeries and the like.
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‘is the bumbling sidekick.”
Not true, there is nothing canonical about “bumbling”… You are talking about a guy who can carry heavy loads, ride a horse on roofs which are not flat, and combines the skills of a master horseman, varlet, mountaineer with those of a ninja. If portrayed as bumbling that is out of character, sometimes portrayed by bumbling actors/writers comes closer to the truth.
Concerning that song, it does say that, sure, but it is in the context of knocking on the door, to be opened by a child, who, it being a December night, may have trouble to recognize a very dark skinned visitor. Furthermore for some reason, the anti-piet-folks read the sentence as if good intentions would be opposite to blackness, rather than as an indication that the child already knows him and his good intentions, in the ” , ain’t they?” – sense. That said, it is not a very good song, and the third verse, starting with “Black Pete, be well thanked” is almost never sung.
The problem is that Black Pete is a broadly supported free domain character, with literally thousands of actors and millions of writers presenting him, so there are many, many images to take and form a presentation of the reality of the Black Pete experience, which in reality is much more diverse, no matter how hard you try.
That said, if we would reduce our analysis of the character merely to the way it is portrayed by the Dutch public broadcaster, the anti-Piet folks have a point, but somebody who cannot say “Piet, c’est moi” or “Zwarte Piet,dabennik” is not Dutch, and calling a white person a racist is use of a fighting word, so putting “Zwarte Piet is Racisme” in an environment with many white Dutch people as well as many children has been very irresponsible and stupid, on the other hand the attack by pro-piets on a fellow demonstrator for the right to paint your skin any way you want without interference of the UN, who should concern themselves with more important stuff, who happened to be a Papua, was an even greater depth of immoral stupidity.
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///“Playwright Mark Walraven, who used to play a black-faced Zwarte Piet, says, “I stopped after I began working with black people. Many people are offended by this symbol. In songs written before World War II, he was often called Sinterklaas’ slave, and the texts of many songs and lyrics about him, especially from the 19th century, make it very clear that he was a racist symbol. In the end, Black Pete always comes across as a little stupid, clumsy and one who talks strangely and doesn’t speak proper Dutch.””
Hm. I’ve seen newspaper articles calling Pete a slave, but I never heard anyone making the argument of the pre-WWII songs. And I’ve read a lot of the arguments.
Anyway, a lot of facts on Black Pete are twisted or just simply ignored, just to keep the narrative straight. And the further you dig into it, the more bizarre it gets. But that is what happens with somewhat unofficial festivities.
I could expand on that, but I am busy celebrating christmas at the moment. If anyone got a question, I am not that happy, yet prepared to answer them, now or later.
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@Linda
Funny enough, I was talking about this not to long ago with a few black/brown friends I have from Curacao and Suriname, who went to high school in the Netherlands.
I had wanted to know how they felt about Zwarte Piet and the 2 mixed-race people from Suriname said they felt “conflicted and embarrassed” because
they would participate in the activities but to reconcile the story and image of Piet to themselves, they tried to see him as a “cartoon”
For us Caribbeans, I think there is a lot of internalized feelings involved when it comes to race and no one wants to feel like an outsider of the group.
The black woman from Curacao basically said, “it doesn’t bother me so much because historically Piet was African, and I’m Dutch, so it’s not really about black people as a group”
For this type of brainwashing, I almost had no words–I couldn’t believe it was said but I understand it. (Before coming to the USA, I probably would have said something just as stupid.)
Like it or not, Blacks also have the right to have their own opinion. Please don’t call them “brainwashed” just because their standards differ from what you believe to be right.
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@ teddy1975
“calling a white person a racist is use of a fighting word”
That’s just ridiculous. If people of color can’t point out when we’re being racist, how is anything ever going to improve?
Is sexist a fighting word? What about homophobe?
Are you seriously trying to suggest that if someone called you a racist, you’d be justified in physically attacking him? Seriously??
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@ Remy
I think it’d be honest to mention that as former colonial masters in Congo, Belgians are in no position to complain about some “outsider criticizing them for something they do in their own homes”. It’s rather ugly to enslave someone, then not apologize, but ridicule and insult him. Are Belgians trying to find excuses for their actions in Africa?
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Jeff Elberfeld @ Like it or not, Blacks also have the right to have their own opinion. Please don’t call them “brainwashed” just because their standards differ from what you believe to be right..
Linda says
Jeff, That is the dumbest thing I’ve seen written in a long time
you must be White….and quite unfamiliar with Geography!
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Linda says,
Kiwi @ Thanks for trying to defend me against ignorance
Jeff,
you Obviously missed the point of my post
Why the h’ll are you on this Blog…. that statement alone shows that you miss the WHOLE POINT of this blog… so why are you here?!
Your statement proves that you don’t understand anything about
INTERNALIZED RACISM that affects black and brown people
like myself and other Caribbean black and brown people who come from former European Colonies. such as Jamaica, Curacao and Suriname
INTERNALIZED RACISM (aka Brainwashing) is an issue that affects black and brown people, who are born and raised in majority white population countries, such as USA or England. (Pick any country in Europe)
we, black and brown people of the “West”, are raised BRAINWASHED because we are raised with a European mindset
we are all Products of white European/American “western” Education and we were are all raised to believe in the white European Standards of Beauty, History, Politics, Philosophy, etc
You have no business lecturing me about an issue that Affects us black/brown people — an Issue that you, white Dutchman, just Showed that you don’t understand and are not affected by
but no worries
Abagond wrote a post about it,
so why don’t you go peruse that and LEARN about this issue that affects black/brown people
before you come back and open your mouth to me
you obviously haven’t learned a dam thing being a lurker on Abagonds blog all these years.
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and Jeff,
just in case you miss the point about why it’s a Negative thing for us African descendants to be born and raised with a European mindset, standard and frame of mind
I’ll give you a Hint:
it Affects our self-Esteem, our sense of self and knowledge of our African ancestry, our view of ourselves and our place in the world (or our little corner of it)
Per Grada Kilomba, Portuguese-West African and her take on growing up black in Europe and the negative effects
“Black people look at themselves from the perspective of white people,” says writer Grada Kilomba. “They don’t look at themselves from their own perspective.”
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per Vittorio Longhi, an Italian-Eritrean journalist
“On Being African in Europe”
I am of Eritrean descent, though I am light-skinned, the issue of Afro-European identity is new to me.
I was raised in an all-Italian environment, where my African heritage was largely ignored. Even my father, a black man born in Asmara during Italy’s colonial period, rarely acknowledges our ties with Africa.
For a long time, I didn’t really question color and seldom realized how frustrating the constant negative portrayal of black people can be. Yet witnessing the oppression and the suffering of those who are fleeing Africa shook my Eurocentric indifference.
There has not been a serious effort to build a narrative about the black experience in Europe that takes into account class and power relations.
Creating a black narrative requires questioning old colonial symbols first.
This is happening, with a more aware and networked generation of activists. One example is the campaign against Zwarte Piet, or Black Pete, the dull, Afro-looking servant of Santa Claus, dear to Dutch and Belgian traditions.
In 2011, artists and human rights groups organized protests until Zwarte Piet’s look was changed. He now appears without the frizzy dark hair and big red lips, though his face is still painted black.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/27/opinion/on-being-african-in-europe.html?_r=0
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///So just because Linda has standards that differ from yours, it’s your place to talk down to and lecture her as if she isn’t entitled to her own opinion. What a hypocrite.///
Thanks Kiwi! Actually, the “standard” was about my objection calling people with a different opinion “brainwashed,” which means that you can dismiss their opinion without putting any further effort in it.
But anyway, maybe you are right. Maybe it was impolite to doubt Linda’s opinion on other people’s opinions.
Let’s see how Linda would handle these things without talking down or lecturing the person she is discussing with:
///so why don’t you go peruse that and LEARN about this issue that affects black/brown people
before you come back and open your mouth to me
you obviously haven’t learned a dam thing being a lurker on Abagonds blog all these years.///
Yes, that is the way to have a polite and civilized dialogue, respecting each other’s opinion! 😀
Happy New Year everybody! 🙂
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Jeff Elberfeld,
everything you just said is one big “blah, blah, blah”
I did not insult you in my first post but discussed the subject YOU brought up;
and in turn, instead of sticking to the topic at hand, which was about
black Dutch children celebrating “Black Pete”
you decided to focus on my one sentence concerning my colour-struck and brainwashed black girl friend
and now you’re still blathering about “my opinion” of said girlfriend (do you know her?)
It’s apparent you don’t give a sh’t about black people in the Netherlands or about their feelings,
since you can’t be bothered and don’t seem inclined, to further discuss THEIR OPINIONS on racism in Europe and the Netherlands.
as I said, I don’t know why you are on this blog and I could care less about your hurt feelings by my response to your nonsense.
Why are you so focused on “Linda’s opinions” about her friends?!
Let me know when you’re ready to discuss racism and black/brown people and how it affects us _ Until then
Good day to you sir.
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Good day to you sir.
What a lovely way to tell someone to eff off, I do it all the time!
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“i’ve heard of him before, why do they have to do blackface, why not just keep their white skin and just be “pete?”
Because a) the character just happens to be black (It is a visit by the Patron saint of innocent prisoners, writer of the book establishing canon strongly associated with abolitionists, slavery still legal in the colonies, abolition a political issue… you can connect the dots yourself, though the character seems to be older, there is some evidence for the saint already having had a negro sidekick(first half 19th century, there is no better word for an “African” looking character without country of origin) and the saint having a sidekick called Pete, who could very well be the same sidekick, in the imagination/ folk lore of the better situated Roman Catholics of Amsterdam, b) their skin is not always white, c) it is a disguise (not everybody lives in big cities, where you do not know your neighbour, d) It is traditional and somewhat mystical (Black face paint, that is, brown is not!). That said, Nickelodeon did face-paint-less-Petes on TV in 2015, but on account of reason b) that won’t be followed much, if at all, outside the large cities with the arrivals.
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By the way, there is nothing “dull” about Black Pete, a translation error, maybe?
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@ Solitaire, justified? No. But if you mix with it a big crowd and basically start calling them all racists, you are provoking a violent reaction. Provoked violence is not the same as justified violence, though a certain amount of lawful violence by officers of the law to prevent provoked violence, certainly if children would be endangered can be justified.
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@ teddy1975
“But if you mix with it a big crowd and basically start calling them all racists, you are provoking a violent reaction.”
So you’re telling me free speech and peaceful public protest aren’t allowed in the Netherlands? That it is seen as a provocation to violence instead of a citizen’s right to free speech?
Are you all really that thin-skinned? You are so enraged by being called a racist it provokes you to inflict violent harm on people?
Remember the saying: Sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can never hurt me.
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Hi Linda, thanks for responding. Let’s go through your text, shall we?
Jeff Elberfeld,
everything you just said is one big “blah, blah, blah”
All right. If you say so.
I did not insult you in my first post but discussed the subject YOU brought up;
and in turn, instead of sticking to the topic at hand, which was about
black Dutch children celebrating “Black Pete”
To be honest, it was not meant as a point to be discussed, just a remark to show that is not all that black and white in the Netherlands (no pun intended).
you decided to focus on my one sentence concerning my colour-struck and brainwashed black girl friend
and now you’re still blathering about “my opinion” of said girlfriend (do you know her?)
Ten years ago (and maybe till this day), Fox News called U.S. snipers “sharpshooters” to avoid negative connotations, and “suicide bombers” are to be called “homicide bombers” to make them look worse.
You are playing the same game. In your first reply you said you “learned” things, as opposed to your friend, with who you disagree, is “brainwashed.”
That is not right, since people have to respect each other’s opinion. But more importantly, it is a fallacy called “poisoning the well,” adverse information about a target is preemptively presented to an audience, with the intention of discrediting or ridiculing everything that the target person is about to say. (see http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/141-poisoning-the-well)
I just wanted to advise you that this kind of rhetoric could be harmful when trying to get a message across, as we actually see happen now.
It’s apparent you don’t give a sh’t about black people in the Netherlands or about their feelings,
since you can’t be bothered and don’t seem inclined, to further discuss THEIR OPINIONS on racism in Europe and the Netherlands.
So not discussing a topic with you any further means I don’t care? Hm.
Like I said in the beginning: I prefer to keep out of discussions which do not make sense. Not that I want to say that your contributions don’t make any sense, but, well, just read what I wrote in the beginning.
as I said, I don’t know why you are on this blog and I could care less about your hurt feelings by my response to your nonsense.
Well, for one thing, I am not here to satisfy your curiosity about my person. But that said, I do not know why you bring up feelings. Nobody is celebrating or justifying gruesome murders at this blogpost, and that is one of the few things that would hurt me when reading it.
Why are you so focused on “Linda’s opinions” about her friends?!
As I said above, I am just advising you, so you can improve your rhetorical skils. Your opinions as such are interesting, but nothing more than that.
Let me know when you’re ready to discuss racism and black/brown people and how it affects us _ Until then
Good day to you sir.
And good day to you too. It was a pleasure discussing with you.
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Anyway, for those interested some reading material:
Black Pete as being racist: https://pure.knaw.nl/portal/files/484096/Helsloot_Zwarte_Piet_Cultural_Aphasia-pdf.pdf
Black Pete as being anti-racist: https://voxullus.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/zp_hist_context_draft4.pdf
Just see which is the most convincing, ladies and gentlemen.
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Jeff Elberfeld @ Linda
Linda says
So, Jeff — as I stated before, if you are Not here to “discuss” anything, then why the F’k are you here???
talking about black people and how they feel about racism, in your world– “doesn’t make sense”.
but advising me to not criticize black people as being “brainwashed”, does make sense?! and is more important than discussing anti-black racism????
Listen maricón:
you are not only wasting space but you’re wasting everyone else’s time, since they have NOTHING of substance to say.
I don’t take unsolicited advice from people who have no business being on a blog that discusses issues that don’t concern them ( as you just stated above)
so you can keep your advice–wrap it up real tight, and stick it up your *&* where it will provide better service.
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Herneith,
you are the master that I can only humbly hope to emulate 🙂
Keep slaying and bringing those devils to the light.
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correction:
“you are not only wasting space but you’re wasting everyone else’s time, since you have NOTHING of substance to say.”
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Kiwi,
yes, you hit the nail on the head
but what is even more ridiculous, is that he keeps coming back to
“discuss” how righteous he is in offering his unsolicited advise on proper blog-semantics and etiquette.
I’m not into this whole internet thing where people argue about “strawmen, logic fallacy, and other blah, blah, bullsh’t”
so he can take his “advise” and go kick rocks
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and speaking of a real Waste of Space
I see Abagond’s other dim bulb has managed to shine his dull light onto another topic he knows nothing about
what’s up,
slow trollLOM?no one coming over to entertain you on your own blog
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Jeff Elberfeld
Hate yo break it to you, but Linda did not commit the fallacy of poisoning the well. Don’t try to use it to side track the fact that you tried to jump into a debate that resulted in you getting your a** handed to you.
You can not tell others not to speak on the thoughts and feelings of black people, while then turning around and speaking on them. Then going further to dismiss the thoughts of black people on the issue.
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LOM
who was I debating with online when I said mentioned the word “brainwashed”?
please explain how I shut down the opposing “argument” by stating my girlfriend was “brainwashed”?
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LOM
wiggle my way out of what??
you haven’t said or showed anything to indicate I was having an argument or a debate with someone
what “argument or debate” did I have with my girlfriend that was shut down? please provide that transcript
please show my exact statements to HER that I made that invalidated her opinions while I was speaking to her?
what words were said directly to my girlfriend that shut down our discussion?
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No it did not occur in the context of an argument I had with Jeff
because I was NOT having an argument with Jeff to begin with prior to him giving me his “advise” on the usage of the word brainwashed.
You said you agree with Jeff that calling people names shut’s down discussions or attempt to invalidate their opinion; so therefore, I was wrong to call my girlfriend “brainwashed”
Please show the statement’s I made to my girlfriend that shows exactly how I shut down the discussion I was having with her?
please show my exact statements to HER that I made that invalidated her opinions while I was speaking to her?
Jeff wasn’t present when I was talking to her and I wasn’t having an argument with Jeff prior to his unsolicited advise
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LOM,
just to be clear
When I mentioned my girlfriend, Jeff and I were not arguing nor were we debating anything
I was responding to his original statement where I brought up an anecdotal story
as well as a comment that discussed the dynamics of race in the Netherlands and the reason black children also participate in Black Pete festivities.
Jeff original comments:
Linda responds to Jeff’s original comment:
what argument or debate was Jeff and I having up to this point????
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You stated:
So please show the debate or argument that occurred where I called Jeff “brainwashed” in order to shut down a “debate”
my opinion of my girlfriend had nothing to do with Jeff’s original statement, nor my in context response to Jeff concerning why black children celebrated black Pete
I think my girlfriend is brainwashed, so what… why would you or Jeff care… do either of you know her???????
she was not present nor is she participating in any discussion with Jeff or myself on this blog — so what discussion or debate got shut down by me?
I think you’re stupid and I think my neighbor is sexy… what does either one of those opinions have to do with black children celebrating Black Pete
absolutely nothing
all I know is that once again,
you decided to jump into a discussion that has NOTHING to do with you
since you decided to make yourself a part of this by jumping on Jeff’s jollywagon, like the b’ you are,
then please back your sh’t up or take a seat
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Kiwi,
I haven’t paid particular attention to that because on this blog, I’ve seen many posts between black men and black women go down the tubes when dealing with issues that affect black women.
as far as Abagond’s white racist trolls and resident aliens who won’t leave,
I think they are all attention seekers who say and do whatever it takes to disrupt or marginalize, no matter who is talking
they like to try and control the narrative or direction of the comments
or they just want to spew their venom in order to destabilize the conversations
I saw this with race realists like Biff and the A-word, who frequently attacked you because you’re Asian and you showed your disgust with Asian female/white male relationships
so they purposely played up their masculinity or the subject of stereotypes that show Asian men as being “weak”
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Maricón is now a moderated word.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
This post is about Black Pete, not income inequality. Learn to stay on topic. If you are not interested in Black Pete, no one is forcing you to comment. There are over 2,000 other posts – and the Open Thread. And your blog.
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@ Kiwi
I think it is more than just Black women.
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@ teddy1975
“Bumbling” is what I gathered from what I read (in English).
If he is such a positive figure, why do Black children not like being called “Black Pete”? Why does Linda’s girlfriend try to disassociate herself from him almost to the point of self-delusion?
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
After taking Linda to task for using “brainwashed”, you turn around and use the word “Nazi”?
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^Clearly he’s incapable of staying on topic. Trolls will be trolls.
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what argument or debate was Jeff and I having up to this point????
Come on now. Us coloureds should be grateful such a paternalistic racist white man(one in the same), has deigned to ‘enlighten’ us. As for points, he doesn’t have any. He doesn’t like it when coloureds sass him back! I’m going back to installing the new shi**ter in my bathroom. I am actually learning something!
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Have you ever heard of a bumbling acrobat? Even if we would limit it to his speech pattern, it has never been part of his character, though speaking unnaturally loud and slow, so the conversation can be followed by his youngest fans too, might give that impression to the uninitiated.
A large distinction in perceived image, however, should be made between Pete as a character, and Petes as a class of characters, to the degree that in my view the claim “Zwarte Piet is Racisme”, which I consider as more false than true, would turn in my view to much more true than false, simply by giving the plural form. Though Piet the individual is a bit of a black superhero, who can do everything, the multiplication in that army of identity lacking individuals does indeed seem to refer back to slavery conditions, without the potential of role reversal.
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Lord of Mirkwood, we are talking here about “black pete”, who represents a recent incarnation of a whole lot of different black and blackened (or simply dark) characters associated with the celebration of the name day of the most popular extra-biblical saint, including said saint himself, (who might not have been African, but probably would have been better of using “colored facilities” in Jim Crow land, according to some art traditions), which has nothing to do with Christmas, but a lot more with weddings and children.
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I remember in my early 20’s cleaning out the attic of my mom’s house and coming across a bunch of her books she was given to read as a child. I don’t remember what the name of the books were but that their were five or six books with clearly racist cartoon like images of black people. Some were drawn like stick figures. At that time I wasn’t as self aware of racism as I am today but I remember thinking these weren’t going to be the books I was going to save to share with my future kids so I threw them away. They were that bad.
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I have read black Pete is black because he is covered in soot and so who knows what color he is. They give this narrative to avoid racial conflict.
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It depends a bit what you mean with “racial conflict”, if you would mean an attempt to be nice to black people, probably not, that soot covered explanation came into being to explain the difference between Pete in life performances, a mixture between the pre-piet traditional blackened face celebrators and a negro character and the more and more common real life fellow local citizens, who would have been called black in the USA. So this has been told to kids since, say, the sixties, and to many that non-racial origin of the blackness of Pete is just the absolute truth, because they have “always known it” as it was told to them as a fairly small “lie to children.” To THEM there really is no racial component, which is just as much a denial of the complicated truth as thinking there is just the racial component.
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@ Solitaire, if the crowd is large enough, you can be sure that there is probably at least one violent idiot in it. We had that attack by Pro-Piet demonstrators on a fellow demonstrator, who happened to be a Papua, to prove it.
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@teddy1975: So why not just remake or revise it so as to remove the various objectionable racial elements from the depiction?
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In other words, why not find a depiction that doesn’t incorporate the objectionable “minstrel show caricature”-like design?
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@teddy1975
And yet the wording of your previous comments held the protestors responsible for the violence, as if they were inciting it. Why do you hold them at fault, not the “violent idiot” in the crowd?
Do they not have a right to public peaceful protest? If they are protesting peacefully and some “violent idiot” in the crowd attacks them, they are not the ones who were violent.
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@ teddy1975
My previous comment is in moderation for quoting your use of “ldiot”.
“We had that attack by Pro-Piet demonstrators on a fellow demonstrator, who happened to be a Papua, to prove it.”
Ok, so when you first brought up the possibility of violence, you did so in order to argue that the anti-Piet demonstrators were irresponsible. But now that you cite an actual example, it’s of the pro-Piet demonstrators attacking one of their own? Who just happened to be a person of color?? Or is that why they attacked that demonstrator in the first place?
I find it highly problematic that the example you used is one of the opposite side attacking one of their own supporters who wasn’t white. This in no way holds up your initial argument that the anti-Piet demonstrators are irresponsibly provoking public violence. It only proves that the pro-Piet demonstrators are willing to beat each other up in the presence of children.
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If you ask me, because there isn’t any “minstrel show caricature”-like design, the only people who think so are those who do not care about the differences between different types of negro impersonators, which is insulting to them, so if you don’t care about being insulting, why would they? Live and let live.
Furthermore you still seem to underestimate the scale and variation of the phenomenon. You may invent your politically correct version, but two streets or three channels further they do their own thing. The racial element is quite simple: Black Pete is BLACK, and nobody really knows why, what’s wrong with that? And until the day black folks are severely underrepresented in prison populations, the sidekick of a patron saint of innocent prisoners may have a good reason to stay that way.
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@teddy1975
“the only people who think so are those who do not care about the differences between different types of negro impersonators”
Why do you think it is ok that any “negro” impersonators exist? How is this EVER okay?
“The racial element is quite simple: Black Pete is BLACK, and nobody really knows why, what’s wrong with that?”
A significant proportion of the black population of the Netherlands apparently thinks there’s something wrong with that. Listen to them if you want to know why.
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I don’t understand the problem, from a law and order point of view, we see demonstrators against something which got a huge crowd with many children in it gathered somewhere, national TV and all. They form a security risk, not because they are terrorists, but because their presence can be seen as provoking unjustified, but still provoked, violence. What did you think I was talking about??? We are not talking about a debate involving the greatest minds, you know.
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Why do you think there is anything wrong with it? It’s not my cup of tea, but impersonating people with a higher degree of civilization, respect for their elders, heart for their brethren and appreciation for at least some of the arts, is a reason for bands of youngsters to make themselves hard to recognize, I feel a lot better about than about the usual other motivations to do so, don’t you?
Can you give a link to ONE of those so called black population types who can argue the issue in a rational way? Really, on both sides the greatest minds are not involved with this “debate”, to say the least…
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Sure, they have the right to demonstrate Kiwi, but not in every spot they want, it went a lot better this year by the way.
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“And yet the wording of your previous comments held the protestors responsible for the violence, as if they were inciting it. Why do you hold them at fault, not the “violent ldiot” in the crowd?”
Because I give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they are able to function as fully rational beings, just like most adults in the crowd.
“Do they not have a right to public peaceful protest?”
Of course, but doing so in a way which could be seen as child endangering, might not be seen as entirely peaceful. The next time, there were Django (you know, when he kills his first bounty) Petes too, with concealed guns.
“If they are protesting peacefully and some “violent idiot” in the crowd attacks them, they are not the ones who were violent.”
No, but they would have been the ones raising tensions and increasing the probability of such an event. Just put yourself in the position of a parent or a cop, when a child would have been severely hurt in such a case. Sure, their risk analysis might be different, but in my estimation that risk was too great.
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@ teddy1975
The problem with it is that it’s racial mockery.
“Can you give a link to ONE of those so called black population types who can argue the issue in a rational way?”
Excuse me, “so called black population types”? Do you even realize how racist that sounds? You were better off using “negro.”
What do you find irrational about their argument? It sounds to me like you’re calling them “stupid” because you disagree, because you have your heart set on maintaining a tradition regardless of how racist it is or how many people are emotionally hurt by it.
“they have the right to demonstrate Kiwi, but not in every spot they want”
So what are the restrictions on public demonstrations in Dutch law? Were the protestors choosing spots where it is illegal to demonstrate? Were they breaking any laws? Or are you just crying “but the children!” in an attempt to cast doubt?
I don’t know about your country, but in the US children are frequently included in the demonstrations themselves. During the civil rights movement, black children were subjected to police brutality and arrest for exercising their rights as citizens to demonstrate. Children, even babies, take part in gay pride parades every year along with their parents. So your concern about the safety of children doesn’t hold up well from my viewpoint. Perhaps things are different there and you have laws forbidding protest demonstrations in the presence of children?
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No Solitaire, it can be racial mockery, it does not have to be. Of course the real thing is better, but that does not make faking it mocking it.
Hey, “black population” is what YOU call them,… to me that sounds if not downright racist, at least imperialist and in denial of the ethnic structure of the Dutch population.
Which version? That a Dutch abolitionist icon should be abolished because people were lynched in the USA? The “They are all racists”-one? The “my friend doesn’t dare to use red lipstick anymore”-version? I do not deny that they have a point, if we stop yesterday with dressing up like him and let him return to where he belongs, in the imagination from the shadows of the winter night, between the pages of books and in the songs and poems of the season, it’s not a day too soon, but no anti-piet has been able to form a rational argument, no pro-piet either, if you don’t count: “Get lost foreigners, if we have to accept your offensive customs, you have to accept ours.”, which is fairly rational, except for the tiny detail of very little overlap between the offending and the offended.
No they weren’t, except for the one about obeying the cops, at least that one time, the one about not slandering, the one about not inciting hatred, are not relevant, but the one which is, is that if you are so offensive that the reactions of the public (or counter demonstrators) might endanger you or others, there is not much left of your right to demonstrate.
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Well, this was interesting, to say the least.
One of the great things about this blog is that it shows how language matters.
I like artcles with titles like “Stupid Things White People Say” or Stuff You Probably Shouldn’t Say to White People, or Stuff White People Probably Shouldn’t Say on what words and arguments can or cannot be used.
Anyway, if I see how much uproar was caused by only one comment on one word, then how much commotion will be aimed at Abagond for writing so many blogs on how to use words for a pleasant dialogue?
My respect for Abagond has risen quite a lot, the last days.
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As I tried to point out before, using the word “Blacks” the way you do is imperialistic and insensitive to the Dutch ethnic diversity. There are hardly Black people in the Netherlands, there are Afro-Surinamers, Nigerians, Ghanese, Afro-Americans, and so on… which is not to say that those groups may not feel connected and so on, of course, but your Black suggests a reality, a sameness of ethnical groups which is hardly justified.
That said, if a place is your shared home, you should not try and burn family heirlooms, no matter how ugly they might be, that act is a declaration of not belonging.
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The word “types” is what made that phrase racist in American English.
How many generations do those different ethnic groups have to be in the Netherlands before you see them as Dutch?
I didn’t see anyone trying to “burn” a family heirloom. I saw people stating that a tradition was racist and asking for its removal.
The tradition is racist mockery whether the performer is of African descent or a person of European descent wearing blackface.
So is there an actual law that states if a demonstration becomes too offensive, there “is little left” of the protestors’ right to demonstrate? Can you quote actual legal phrasing? Or is this just your own opinion?
Why do you find the demonstrations against Piet more offensive than Piet himself?
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@ Kiwi
Yes, teddy1975 doesn’t even seem to be aware of his racist paternalistic tone.
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@ Jeff Elberfeld
“how much uproar was caused by only one comment on one word”
???
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@Kiwi
You call it every time. It is as if you can spot a racist a mile away. Smh
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I just limit myself to stating that the accusations of Kiwi and Solitaire are totally unfounded.
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@ teddy1975
Oh, I forgot. In your country it is more offensive to call someone racist than to be a racist.
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@ teddy1975
Comment deleted for not using English.
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Solitaire
“Oh, I forgot. In your country it is more offensive to call someone racist than to be a racist.”—–Sadly that kind of diseased thinking is spreading.
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Solitaire, you do not make sense, there is nothing offensive about being a racist, as long as the racist keeps it hidden. You got the law, WOM article 2, 6, 7 and 8, but since that is Dutch law Abagond deleted it.
Have you been a racist since birth? Because only a racist would assume that the positions one takes have been determined by one ‘s supposed race. You see, unlike you I consider the views one has on actual people, rather than on a fictional character with a perceived race identical to the slaves in the colonies, appearing in the abolition era part of the trans-atlantic slavery era, as companion to the patron saint of innocent prisoners, (well prisoners in general too, but mostly innocent ones, and thus without high demands on innocence), as the views determining whether one is racist. In my view Linda is a racist thinker by not accepting the views of her friend as a rational conclusion, but I admit her friends’s cited conclusion does not suggest she is in full possession of the facts at all.
Your insistence on using “Blacks” in a discussion about a character which is no doubt black, but with an uncertain nature of original and perceived blackness suggests that you are not interested in the topic itself, at all. I am, so I avoid confusing racist expressions and see nothing wrong in applying an old, rather neutral, but a completely obsolete concept to an old fictional character with an unknown origin.
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@ teddy1975
Can you cite proof that Piet was not originally African in nature? You say the origin is uncertain, but you don’t provide any sources.
I believe that in this discussion I have used the word “black” twice on my own — only once in reference to the Netherlands, the other in reference to Americans — and a few times when directly quoting others, including yourself. That’s far less than you have in this thread. Yet you characterize that as my “insistence” on using the term and draw conclusions based on that presumed insistence? Fascinating.
“unlike you I consider the views one has on actual people”
You keep dismissing the views of the anti-Piet protesters of African origin, and you do so by insulting their intelligence and implying they are violent and irresponsible, trying to get little children killed or something.
“there is nothing offensive about being a racist, as long as the racist keeps it hidden.”
Wow.
Well, you certainly aren’t keeping it hidden.
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Teddy,
keep me out of your f’ked up twisted views on race
because you and that other id’t Jeff totally missed the point of why a black person would deny that their blackness comes from Africa
and the reason you missed it is because you don’t know sh’t about black people.
your views on this issue of Black Pete are 150% from ONLY a white person’s perspective and you don’t give a sh’t about what black Dutch people have to say about it.
The fact that you don’t think that your views are racist, is what is the saddest part of reading your comments
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Teddy,
You and Jeff are the living, breathing example of why BLACK people cannot be heard or have their views on race taken seriously in white majority countries– you are THAT white person that Abagond writes about on this blog.
Living in Europe has taught me that you Europeans are all a bunch of hypocrites that like to thumb your nose at Americans
When in reality, you are no better than white Americans.
Europeans like to think they are enlightened but most of you are ignorant as h’ll and spout nothing but utter rubbish about race,
you all are tactless and like to air your f’ked up views on Africans and other people of colour, as if you are right and your views are the only ones that matter !
The fact that you don’t recognize that black/brown “Dutch” nationals from the Caribbean have identity issues
just goes to show how out of touch you are with your own countrymen.
Take several seats, please… because you are a Joke
trying to come off as some kind of anti-racist, when you are the living example of what racist-thinking and viewpoints look like.
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Abagond, you are moderating the h’ll out me right now
please delete duplicates
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for all you ignorant Dutch and Belgian white Europeans
who like to believe that you are not a’holes for defending this f’d up tradition.
here are some anecdotal stories from black/mixed-race Dutch nationals about how they feel about Schwartze Piet.
05-09-2014, 01:56 PM
“I don’t really know how to deal with this anymore. I don’t know where to start writing, so I just go with my feelings.
In the Netherlands, we have a holiday called Sinterklaas. It’s comparable with santa claus (which we have too). It’s a holiday where all white people paint their face black, have red lips, wear a black curly wig, have gold jewelry and their jobs are comparable with elves on Christmas. They are called ‘zwarte piet’ AKA black Pete. Sinterklaas (their leader) is the only person who is white. If you misbehave as a child, you will be punished by black pete, at least, that’s what is said by some of their songs.
Even though they can punish you, they act silly, aerobic, little dumb and are kind. They also give candy.
As a black person, it’s normal for little white children to be confused and call me black pete. You also have children who are a little older and clearly know the difference and still call you black pete. In fact, everyone does. Teenagers are always cruel, so they have no mercy talking me down with this, but you also have grownups and even elders who ‘jokingly’ mention how much I look like black pete. People also use it as an insult to me.
Racism isn’t uncommon, even if it’s not about this holiday, so that’s not the real issue.
What grinds my gears is that Dutch people want to deny that it’s based of black people and slavery. They actually say there is no resemblance. Even though you just read that I constantly am reminded by whites people that black people look exactly like black pete, but when you talk about them, they will deny it.
They will say black pete is black because of the chimney they go in homes to give presents. The black curly hair is because it’s burned (say what?) from the chimney and tons of other excuses they used to use for children, and now use it as actual arguments.
It’s even confirmed by professionals that this holiday is indeed, based of slavery.
here is the link to continue reading because her rant is sort of lengthy.
http://www.lipstickalley.com/showthread.php/695519-How-to-deal-with-a-racist-holiday-%28long-text%29?highlight=piet
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Living in Europe had taught me that you Europeans are all a bunch of hypocrites that like to thumb your nose at Americans
When in reality, you are no better than white Americans on issues dealing with race
Europeans like to think they are enlightened but most of you are ignorant
and tactless
you air your f’d up views on Africans and other people of colour, as if your views are the only ones that count !
The fact that you don’t recognize that black/brown “Dutch” nationals from the Caribbean have identity issues –just goes to show how out of touch you are with your own “colonial” countrymen.
Here is a screenshot of some of the Dutch National Football team members being called “black pete and monkeys” and questioning whether they were “really” Dutch by their white countrymen,
(Abagond, not sure if this link will show up but it’s a screenshot from instagram and it’s written in Dutch but please let it through, it illustrates exactly how “enlightened” Dutch people are on racism.)
some of the players in the photo: Memphis Depay, Karim Rekik, Kenneth Vermeer and Gregory van der Wiel. Picture taken by Leroy Fer
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Linda, it seems to be rather an illustration that you do not understand anything of any Dutch at all, the comments in the picture are mostly reactions to something objectionable, but do not tell anything about WHAT was objectionable or by whom that objectionable comment has been made, or the ethnic background of that person.
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We do have a couple of records who seem to indicate an awareness in Roman Catholic Amsterdam of a sidekick of Saint NIcholas, who was either an unnamed “nappy haired negro” (that is a translation of the 19th century description, no indication whether it was somebody disguised as such, or that it was a description of somebody’s natural looks) or called Pieter (without racial indication), they could easily be the same character. So we may assume that Schenkman was not the creator of Piet, as it was once assumed, but that just like the horse, the bag, the bishop’s outfit and the association with marine travel, one of the pre-existing elements he used to create his “modern, civilized version” which would turn out to be canonical. The original version of Schenkman wears a suit claimed to be about right for a house slave from the West Indies, speaks fluent Dutch, being in the presence of the patron saint of more or less innocent prisoners, he seems to me absolutely not a slave, in the “Absolutely-not-a-slave since five days, seven hours and thirty-eight minutes” sense, so this “original canonical” version of the character can easily and probably correctly be seen as strongly connected to slavery, mostly with slavery in the Dutch possessions in America, which with the author being a member of an association with opinions about slavery, abolitionist ones, should not be mistaken for celebrating slavery.
We hardly know anything at all about the pre-schenkman Piet, so he might have been of African nature or not, he might just have been based on somebody playing that part, either in disguise or natural and in that case his origin would be 100% Amsterdam, unless it is Italian (the first recorded observation was in the house of an immigrant from Italy). He could have originated as a slave associated with the innocent prisoner’s patron saint, as a catholic abolitionist “icon”, but as far as I know any evidence for that is lacking too, though it very much possible that the character started more like a Krampus like one, there is no doubt that it was already a “nappy haired negro” by the time we see it emerge from the mists of time, so though it is quite possible that the original version has no African-nature, it had no doubt gotten one by the time we can recognize it, if we consider African nature as that which makes some inhabitants of, say, Kansas, who never have seen even one of the seas bordering Africa, African-Americans.
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Kiwi said:
“teddy1975 said:
“Get lost foreigners, if we have to accept your offensive customs, you have to accept ours.”, which is fairly rational,”
Cutting of the meaning changing tail:
“, except for the tiny detail of very little overlap between the offending and the offended.”
“For many Blacks, the Netherlands is their only home. Equating Blacks to foreigners is racist and paternalistic and conveys the idea that only Whites can be Dutch.”
Obviously, what do you try to show? That you mine quotes?
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@Teddy1975
Not sure how this would appear, but….
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All you really have to do Is scroll down, and not that far, to see the racist comments.
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No, Kiwi, I just described the most rational argument I encountered in this discussion, and dismissed it as non valid, my point was that both sides had more or less valid issues, but that both sides failed to construct a serious rational argument from them, or to start a discussion to come to an acceptable deal. I guess we were meeting Poe’s law again.
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If I did not, why would you cut of the last end of that sentence, in which I did so?
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teddy1975,
I don’t need to post the whole instagram to illustrate what POS some Dutch people are- the story itself is the “illustration” (obviously the story link didn’t pop up with the screenshot)
anyone, even your self-deluded a’s, can look up the story online
stop acting like you didn’t hear about the controversy, it was from last year and all the filth that your Dutch countrymen said was listed, translated and easily accessed once you scrolled down the comment bar.
You are pathetic – trying to defend the indefensible
http://www.farenet.org/news/dutch-team-selfie-sparks-racism-new-debate-black-pete/
“Dutch team selfie sparks racism and new debate over ‘black Pete’
17 November 2014
When dutch-midfielder Leroy Fer posted a selfie of himself with eight other national team players on Twitter and Instagram he did not expect the torrent of racist remarks that followed.
The photo was picked up and distributed repeatedly, with floods of comments likening the nine players to both Zwarte Piet (‘black Pete’) and monkeys, and questioning whether they were “really” Dutch.
One blog that posted the photo, Voetbalzone, took the popular picture down because of the remarks. “Although the photo had more than 8000 likes over the course of the afternoon, reactions lacked so much class that we have decided to remove the post,” said Voetbalzone editor Daniel Cabot Kerkdijk told RTL Nieuws.
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Own your words?
“Get lost foreigners, if we have to accept your offensive customs, you have to accept ours.”, which is fairly rational
For many Blacks, the Netherlands is their only home. Equating Blacks to foreigners is racist and paternalistic and conveys the idea that only Whites can be Dutch.”
You are the one who equates foreigners with “Blacks”, the propieters equated being an antipieter with being a foreigner, and their own position with being Dutch, so YOU are paternalistic and racist, if you would own your words. I do think it weird too, but in this construction the issue whether or not one is in favor of a 19th century fictional character tells apart the Dutch from the others. Only a racist could equate the way people answer “I think celebrating the eve of the name day of the patron saint of toymakers with the character of his assistant who is according to Schenkman’s canonical scripture “black of color”, is a great idea, yes or no?” with your Black or White designation. The described position is not as racist as your own.
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Teddy,
you are so full of sh’t, that’s why you are writing incoherant babble !
black people did not originate from the America’s, so stop trying to play dumb.
There is no mystery as to the origins of a “black slave” in the Americas – if a black person was in the Suriname/S. America or the Caribbean back in the 1500-1700s, then they came from Africa and they were slaves.
(the only free black Africans in the America’s were the Maroons who ran away to hills/forests and they most definitely weren’t hanging out with any of the white Dutch settlers if they didn’t have to)
Your ancestors knew good and well who they were transporting on the slaves ships to the Caribbean/S. American colonies, it’s a historical fact that you cannot twist to your liking.
Native Americans did not look like the Africans, and the Indians and Indonesians came in the 1800s – so there was no confusion as to who had the “nappy hair”
you are a disingenuous liar and defender of a B’sh’t holiday
I notice you haven’t commented on the impact that this b’sh’t holiday is having on your fellow Dutch citizens who are black
your silence speaks volumes and is louder than the nonsense you have written so far.
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@ teddy1975
Comment deleted for use of racial slur.
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“Teddy,
you are so full of sh’t, that’s why you are writing incoherant babble !”
Translation : Cannot understand so spout insults.
OK, this was an answer to a question by Solitaire,
“Can you cite proof that Piet was not originally African in nature? You say the origin is uncertain, but you don’t provide any sources.”
It is unclear what is exactly meant by African in nature, but I tried to answer that question as well as possible, because I try to answer questions, unlike you.
And by the way, I would guess that I am less likely to have slave traders among my ancestors than you.
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Truth is not an insult
I am calling it, as you are showing it
you are full of sh’t and you are a racist
I can care less about your personal family origins.. the Dutch colonies were slave-holding colonies and you/your white family all benefited from slavery and colonialism in Africa and America.
That’s how the Netherlands got rich… learn your history
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Teddy’s still not commenting on how black Dutch people feel about the f’cked up Black Pete holiday
all Teddy is interested in doing is moving the goal post as to why white Dutch people should get to keep their RACIST holiday that ridicules and belittles a black slave
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@ teddy1975
You objected to using the word “black” to describe Dutch citizens of African descent (although you had demonstrably done so more than I had). Now you say that the word “African” is unclear. Shall I use “negro” as you do? But doesn’t that word simply translate to “black” and therefore open itself to the same objection?
You’re being coy. You know very well what I mean. Is there any proof that the description of Piet as being “black” because he is covered with soot from the chimney pre-dates the description of Piet as having naturally dark skin, tight curly hair, and big full lips?
What questions of yours have I not answered?
There is no direct correlation, much less proof of causation, between what one’s ancestors did during slavery times and one’s own racist attitudes.
Although if you want to play that game, I would guess that I am also much more likely to have black African slaves among my ancestors than you.
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@Linda.
Right, Amsterdam was a little village before the Dutch started trading African slaves. Suddenly it became one of the richest big cities in the world. They know good and well that black Pete is a cultural vestige of the Dutch slave trade.
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The idea that Black Pete was black because of chimney soot only goes back to the 1950s.
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Abagond,
I think what’s missing with this post, is clear Clarification as to what the Black Pete celebration represents and it’s history.
The most important thing to mention, is the Black Pete character came from a fictional story that was created in 1845, and according to historians, the image of Piet was based on African child slaves.
St. Nicholas’s existance was real and he morphed into Santa Klaus/Sinterklass
and Sinterlass formally got a black helper, Zwarte Piet, in the Netherlands in 1845, thanks to the fictional story written by Jan Schenkman.
“Zwarte Piet was introduced in 1845 in the story “Saint Nicholas and his Servant,” written by an Amsterdam schoolteacher named Jan Schenkman. In the story, Sinterklaas comes from Spain by steamship bringing with him a black helper of African origin. The book was wildly popular and with it began the inclusion of Santa’s helper in Dutch Christmas festivities.”
Where did Schenkman get his idea of Piet’s image?
Some people think Schenkman may have been influenced by Walter Scott’s Ivanhoe, a very popular book at the time in which a Knight Templar returns from Palestine with two black Saracen servants. Others say he could have been influenced by characters in Heinrich Hoffmann‘s Struwwelpeter. Art historian Michiel Kruijt points to the fashion for having black child slaves in the 17th century.
The Sinterklaas tradition exists in many northern European countries. However, it is only in the Netherlands and Belgium that the frightening companion of Saint Nicholas has become a ’Black Pete’.
In Austria and some Eastern European countries, for instance, St Nicholas’ companion is ‘Krampus’, a devil-like figure which has no racist connotations, just biblical ones.
(mainly because these countries did not have slave-holding Colonies in Africa or Americas, so Krampus never evolved into the image of a black African caricature)
Since the 1970s, the tradition has changed and more Piets have been added to the line-up – so you have the Head Piet and the Rhyme Piet, the Cool Piet (in Adidas stripes) and the whatever else you like Piet.
Piet is no longer a total buffoon talking in a Surinamese accent and he no longer has a switch to hit naughty children or stuffs them in a sack to take them back to Spain. He is the children’s friend and gives them sweets and pepernoten. Piets have also become cleverer as the good Sint has become more forgetful.”
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@ teddy1975
You have not answered this question of mine:
“If he is such a positive figure, why do Black children not like being called “Black Pete”?”
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This teddy1975 has shown themselves to be nothing more than a racist a**hole.
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Linda, I know that they each feel their own feelings. If they want to share their feelings they can do it yourself, but the only person about whose feelings I could tell you without guessing am I.
Solitaire… What I did do was using “black” in constructions, like “who would have been called Black in the USA”, to make clear that a concept like “Black” cannot be used well, without causing some miscommunication, as the definition of the group can be based on very different criteria. The same child could make a school in the USA “blacker” and a school in NL “whiter”, for instance, by going there. It has also a bit to do with different cultures and different words with different sounds for identical concepts.
Though I do not see the word “negro” as offensive in a slur like fashion, I do consider it as archaic and usualy obsolete, our greater insight in the genetic diversity of our species makes it on a certain level akin to a ghost taxon. So you should not use it in this language to indicate actual people, unless you have a special link with history or the past the past, like wondering about hoe poor MLK would have thought about a time traveler telling him about the election of president Obama, you know, language changes with time. If we are talking about fictional characters from or based in times when people believed there was a really a natural part of the human species which was covered by the word. Because Piet has no origin, no homeland which is canonically his, his biological reality is entirely fictional, and the first described (and probably real) sighting of the character used that word, I prefer to use it for him, to set him explicitly apart from the soot covered explanation. Sooty faces as disguise related to Saint Nicholas predate Piet, and soot will have been used to create the illusion of Piet, who was naturally black in the old days, but Piet always was at least “supposed” to have a dark natural color, even if contemporary covered by coal or soot, until the people who were blessed with normal pigmentation became more common, and children wanted to know why johnny and Piet seemed to have such different skins, soot covered, was hardly a lie to children, but soot Pete took of on his own and changed from negro Pete who had gotten dirty while working into something akin to a mythical race of its own going all the ways through chimneys, canonical negro Pete did use chimneys, for espionage and the delivery of presents which could survive, but he did go not through them, he used the door, like every self respecting person.
So though soot has some claims as actually used slap, as explanation for the blackness of Black Pete it is relatively young, but to some parents, whose knowledge of Piet is based on nothing but their own youth memories, it is all they know. Negro Pete is without doubt the original concept of Pete. Lips shape part usually not included in verbal description.
Solitaire, don’t start responding to what I said to Linda, OK?
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Because being called names is never fun, you can just as well hurt them by calling them Obamas or Uncle Toms, futhermore it is, most certainly in case of children used to the multi-Piet stage, clearly an attack on their individuality. I do like the character granted, but my love for it is strongly centered on the written form, if they would stop with the staged arrivals, the visits in person, and so on, I don’t care. But this is a roughly a 500,000,000 Euro event in the country which claims to have invented capitalism…
I would say that if you want to change something, you should jump in and shape the flow, which is easier said than done, granted.
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Mary Bundell, please stay on topic!
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Linda, don’t post obsolete stuff, the assumption of Piet’s creation by Schenkman is so last century by now, he just included the character in what would become the book which would shape the canon of the celebration.
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@ teddy1975
“Solitaire, don’t start responding to what I said to Linda, OK?”
Do not blame me for your ineptitude at indicating to whom you are replying. I was the last person you mentioned by name before making that statement.
So you (finally) admit that Piet is a “negro” from the beginning, yet you don’t see how this is problematic?
Why can’t Piet just be a elf like Santa’s Helpers are in the USA, where an elf (or for that matter a Santa) can be of any race and so the actors do not disguise themselves as a race they are not?
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@Linda
Thank you for the link to the post on Lipstick Alley.
I was struck by this comment by Shimizu:
“If you want to piss Dutch people off, just say that the holiday is racist. Some say they never saw the resemblance and black people are the ones making the connection. Others say they slowly starting to hate black people because of their ‘whining’. Black people should leave the country if they don’t like it. It’s very extreme how offended they are and how racist they can be when you talk about ‘their’ holiday.”
Just shows that anti-Black racism is the same everywhere. It’s pretty easy to hear echoes of the same tired racist arguments that Euro-Americans trot out every time Black people point out factual information from our shared history or their current actions.
Many people who identify as “White” have covered themselves in a dazzling sequined cloak of mythic “White” history. It forms the basis of their identity. If a Black person lifts the cloak and points out urine stained underwear or body sores oozing blood (or worse), these “White” people overreact as if their very humanity is at stake.
It’s sort of sad. Until they can own up to all facets of their history and see people of all skin shades as their fellow humans they will continue to be defensive, reactive and emotionally stunted.
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@teddy1975: I am on topic and the fact that you think it’s okay to keep this disgusting stereotype alive makes you a racist a**hole.
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No Solitaire, I explained to LInda, that the text she probably did not understand and made her go into incoherent ranting, was an answer to your question. You should try and understand what is written first.
“So you (finally) admit that Piet is a “negro” from the beginning, yet you don’t see how this is problematic?”
No. I did not admit it, I just told you the obvious, it is the whole concept, and in the monopietist version it makes sense to remember us of the fate of all those more or less innocent dark skinned prisoners. Just explain what is wrong with somebody having such a background they would have called him a negro in the past. You don’t like such people, they should not be seen living with a bearded guy walking around in a dress, while wearing red lipstick?
You consider the mixing in of highly untraditional nature spirits with highly Christian festivities as something you “just” can do, and you don’t see how this is problematic? You make a total mockery of Christianity, not that I have problems with that, but there are people who do. Satan Claws is hated enough here, he is a total mockery of everything Saint Nicholas stands for: At first the Christian faith, virgins, marriage, children, those women with a profession which seems to be legal in parts of Nevada, students, sailors, more or less innocent prisoners, If you are in the know, it’s hot the first thing piet is doing in Schenkman’s book, is standing on the boat laughing while calling to the public:
“Who’s sweet get sweets, whose naughty gets “de roe”, (unlike the eatly 20th century nasties who misunderstood that as gets beaten with…, it says that the naughty will actually get a biodegradable spanking instrument, which has been claimed to have been used in Saint Nicholas fertility rites with a 100% pregnancy success in a year!. And you prefer faeries over normal people in that…
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Which disgusting stereotype?
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@ teddy1975
I know that they each feel their own feelings. If they want to share their feelings they can do it yourself, but the only person about whose feelings I could tell you without guessing am I.
Linda says,
what kind of incoherent babble is that…
you’re not concerned about what black Dutch nationals think about the Black Pete traditions, your fellow countrymen who feel insulted by this f’cked up tradition.
These are the black/brown people you see every time you leave your house… but yet, you’re more concerned about my viewpoints on a my dumb friend, who you don’t even know
Stop trying to shift the focus of the discussion.. Abagond’s post specifically deals with how black Dutch people feel about this tradition.
You ignoring that to blabber about your own white racist viewpoints doesn’t change the original intent of the post.
Black Pete’s original origins are based on a Fictional character, that was designed to look like a black African slave on purpose
because the creator of the original story and character, Jan Schenkman, based it on African slaves.
Black Pete did not exist before Jan Schenkman wrote the story, so stop lying.
There is no mystery about it, nor is it old and obsolete — the character and it’s story has been changed in the last 150 years by you Dutch people
to suit whatever narrative or sorry a’s excuse was needed to justify keeping this BS tradition’s existence.
if Pete is so “race neutral”, then why has he gotten “more negroid” (your word of choice) over the last 150 years?
Why are black children being called “black Pete” by white people in the Netherlands?
Why do you Dutch people Lie about the story’s origins and it’s morphing character, especially in the last 50 years as more colonial black/brown Dutch citizens moved to the “mother country” — the Netherlands.
What IS old, is you acting like the rest of us don’t have access to Google.
I don’t expect you to say anything of worth because you are not interested in an honest discussion.
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@ teddy1975
“You don’t like such people, they should not be seen living with a bearded guy walking around in a dress, while wearing red lipstick?”
What?????
Where did that come from?
I can accept your point about the elves not being part of Christian tradition, but neither is Piet. He is a relatively recent addition to the St. Nicholas Day festivities and is not historically accurate.
You keep saying Piet refers to “more or less innocent prisoners,” which by “prisoners” I assume you mean slaves? Why is it then that “white” Dutch people make fun of “black” Dutch people by comparing them to Piet, instead of treating Piet with solemn reverence as a reminder of the tragic history of slavery?
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1845: Original Sinterklaas helper. and note: not dressed elaborately at all but attired like a typical “servant/slave”
“There is some evidence that Sint Nicolaas was sometimes accompanied by a black servant even before Schenkman’s book—though this may have been an actual servant, a person of color serving at the time in Amsterdam.”
1870- village edition, he now has the “court” look
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Piet in Van Sinterklaas en Pieterbaas 1911.
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“”“You don’t like such people, they should not be seen living with a bearded guy walking around in a dress, while wearing red lipstick?”
What?????””
Please answer.
“Where did that come from?”
From me. I want you to explain why you think that is problematic. I tried to answer your weird question too.
“I can accept your point about the elves not being part of Christian tradition, but neither is Piet. He is a relatively recent addition to the St. Nicholas Day festivities and is not historically accurate.”
He seems to be about as old as the current country (i.e. sans Belgium), and that is the main point of the Propieters, it is their national heritage and they are willing to defend it.
“You keep saying Piet refers to “more or less innocent prisoners,” which by “prisoners” I assume you mean slaves?”
No if I say prisoners I meant a people held captive while they are basically imnnocent, that did include slaves, yes but is not limited to them.
“Why is it then that “white” Dutch people make fun of “black” Dutch people by comparing them to Piet, instead of treating Piet with solemn reverence as a reminder of the tragic history of slavery?”
Because they are dumb and mean people, who do share any other black acquaintances. Saint Nicholas is not about history, it is about generosity, liberty, marriage, fertility children, love, and millions of profit, toys, showing off, the present and the future. Just take the USA, you think there is no black overrepresentation of basically innocent prisoners, anymore? During the abolition days (you know the end of slavery coming) the significance of a dark guy with Saint Nicholas was obvious to those who recognized the signs, at least in a painting or a book, I grant that it is less strongly felt so with life performances, but do you think the captivity is gone? Even if the prison system would let their bodies go, chains of the mind and terror still keep too many bound. I have good hope, that it can be better in a century, but I doubt it. The black, basically innocent prisoner is still with us,… So Piet still represents the same thing and should not be retired yet.
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Kiwi, you seem to be one of those I consider as still presented by Piet, find freedom in your soul, and go with God, if you can find him.
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@ teddy1975
Ok, here goes: I think you equated elves with fairies, which isn’t the case as they are two different things from two different folklore traditions (Germanic versus Celtic). And then I think you referred to the use of the word “fairy” as a slur and threw in a bunch of homophobia to go along with your racism.
Interestingly, there’s another creature in British folklore that describes you, teddy1975…
And I don’t see how Piet represents the plight of an innocent prisoner in the mind of the average Dutch citizen, much less child. There is no gravitas to the symbol.
@ Kiwi
Yep. Grabbing for straws as he sinks into the morass.
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@ teddy1975
And yes, I do realize the beared man in the dress is St. Nicholas. I know what you were trying to pull. Doesn’t change the fact that you utilized homophobic stereotypes.
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In the mind of the average Dutch citizen, at least one of those anti-piet activists is not a nice huy at all
Quinsy Gario’s famous tweet: ,,White lives matter more than brown ones.” as reaction to the news that minister-president Rutte was deeply shocked in reaction to the loss of MH17. Then there were the issues concerning his making money from the controversy, making it all appear as if he were just doing all the Zwarte Piet is Racisme stuff for the money he was making from it.
And of course that did not really help his popularity among the Antilleans either, face it, if you are trying to make it somewhere, unethical behavior of somebody looking like you, can hurt you a lot more than a caricature, which most, though not all depictions of Piet indeed are, not resembling you can. Unfair, but that is life.
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And Solitaire, just say what you think is problematic about it. Yes, I did use a formulation stereotypical narrow minded homophobes would disagree with, as an example of what you perhaps would not like. Because you refuse to answer the question, and why? Are you afraid it would expose your own racism?
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” I think you equated elves with fairies, which isn’t the case as they are two different things from two different folklore traditions (Germanic versus Celtic). ”
Actually, the use of elves for all faerie, is quite common, especially in the 19th century, but you also find it, for instance, in Terry Pratchett’s work. The difference between Germanic and Celtic is hardly more than which side of the Rhine their ancestors lived, by the way, and we are dealing here with a phenomenon on both sides of that river, so what was your point again?
Elves can mean faeries, in spite of your assertion, and you are wrong about your assertions about my racism too.
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All right. I’ve seen a lot of discussion at this blogpost since I went on living my real life. Is already any consensus reached over here?
Anyway, I believe this piece is not known by everybody here, so let me share it with you:
“…writing in 1884, writer Alberdingk Thijm remembered that in 1828, as a child, he had attended a Saint Nicholas celebration in the house of Dominico Arata, an Italian merchant and consul living in Amsterdam. On this occasion Saint Nicholas had been accompanied by “Pieter me Knecht …, a frizzy haired Negro”, who, rather than a rod, wore a large basket filled with presents.”
English version here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet#Origins
Original Dutch version here: http://www.meertens.knaw.nl/cms/en/nieuwsbriefteksten/nieuwsbriefuitgelicht/143677-de-oudst-bekende-naam-van-zwarte-piet-pieter-me-knecht-1850
Maybe it is interesting stuff to discuss.
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@Linda
You and Jeff are the living, breathing example of why BLACK people cannot be heard or have their views on race taken seriously in white majority countries– you are THAT white person that Abagond writes about on this blog.
Actually, it was you who dismissed the views on race of your black friend, since you called her “brainwashed.” Not me. If there is someone who doesn’t take views of other blacks seriously, it is you.
Living in Europe has taught me that you Europeans are all a bunch of hypocrites that like to thumb your nose at Americans
When in reality, you are no better than white Americans.
Europeans like to think they are enlightened but most of you are ignorant as h’ll and spout nothing but utter rubbish about race,
you all are tactless and like to air your f’ked up views on Africans and other people of colour, as if you are right and your views are the only ones that matter !
The fact that you don’t recognize that black/brown “Dutch” nationals from the Caribbean have identity issues just goes to show how out of touch you are with your own countrymen.
Take several seats, please… because you are a Joke
trying to come off as some kind of anti-racist, when you are the living example of what racist-thinking and viewpoints look like.
“All”? Hm. At least Abagond knows that Whites are individuals.; see https://abagond.wordpress.com/2011/12/17/the-not-all-whites-argument/
Too bad you are not that far (yet).
By the way, it is amusing to see you calling other people ‘tactless,’ while you are calling people here “full of sh’t,” or “a disingenuous liar.”
Please continue to make my day, Linda! 🙂
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you are so full of sh’t, that’s why you are writing incoherant babble !
you are full of sh’t and you are a racist
Keep handing these goofs their nutsacks Linda!
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Jeff Elberfeld,
Actually, it was you who dismissed the views on race of your black friend, since you called her “brainwashed.” Not me. If there is someone who doesn’t take views of other blacks seriously, it is you.
Linda says,
Alright Jeff, since you are so fascinated by this word and are clinging on to it for dear life to prove a non-existent point.
I will play your game:
Please explain to me in detail, how I dismissed my friends views on race.
Because my statement wasn’t about “black people” as a race… it was about her statement about herself.
Here is what I wrote in full: (since you are trying to take things out of context)
so, please discuss exactly how I dismissed her views on how she views herself?
because so far, I have acknowledged that she is:
(1) black and a Dutch citizen– that’s why I asked her about how she feels about Black Pete
(2) I also view her as an African-descendant, because that is what she is. She is not mixed race, she is a mono-racial black African-descended woman.
She in turn, admits she is black, but doesn’t view herself as “African” nor does she acknowledge that she is African-descended because she and her parents, were born in Curacao
and that’s why she doesn’t feel connected to the image of Piet, who is black and African (and mind you, she is both black and an African-descendant, just like Piet)
but yet she acknowledges that black children in the Netherlands, get called “Black Pete” by their white schoolmates.
If we are to roll with her views on ethnical lineage, then white Americans are not European descendants, –they must have fell from the sky and landed in America.
so please, for the first time since you started writing on this blog… make an Honest comment and back up your theory that my friend is “Not Brainwashed”
and don’t give examples that have nothing to do with this issue. Stick to the topic at hand.
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“The difference between Germanic and Celtic is hardly more than which side of the Rhine their ancestors lived”
Good for you Lord of Mirkwood didn’t see that. He’d have a few things to say about the difference between the English and the Irish!
Entirely different language sub-groups, by the way. The Germanic languages are as distant from the Celtic languages as they are the Romance languages.
When did I ever say I found gay people problematic? I didn’t answer your question because it wasn’t applicable.
The mistake you made was in assuming “elf” in English equates to the same homophobic slur as “fairy.” It does not.
As far as profits, I’m sure many “white” Dutch authors, playwrights, television show producers, artists, merchants, costume rental providers, etc. have made plenty of money off Piet for decades. Are they not nice guys either? Anyway, your ad hominem argument does not make Piet any less racist.
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*sips glass of wine
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@ sharinalr
*passes popcorn bowl over
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@Linda
If I understand you well, you are saying that your friend has to feel connected with someone who:
a. wears 16th-century clothing;
b. doesn’t exist for real;
c. is based on someone lived about two centuries ago, or else on a book of 165 years ago;
d. works as an logistics officer to distribute presents among children;
e. is employed by a bishop;
f. is VERY popular among kids;
g. has a dark skin;
h. has a yearly trip by steamboat from Spain to the Netherlands.
I do not know your friend, but I do not think she will see much on the list that connects with her. True, both descend from Africa, but then again, don’t we all?
And for admitting “she is black, but doesn’t view herself as “African” nor does she acknowledge that she is African-descended because she and her parents, were born in Curacao” the same goes.
It sounds very much like what Whoopi Goldberg said lately:
“You know what uh uh! This is my country,” Goldberg said. “My mother, my grandmother, my great-grand folks, we busted ass to be here. I’m sorry. I’m an American. I’m not an African-American, I’m not a chick American, I’m an American!”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/whoopi-goldberg-says-shes-american-not-african-american_568d25e9e4b0c8beacf503d1
And that is one way to look at it. As far as I have seen, here in the Netherlands there are two ways how people of color look at themselves: the first one is to identify as “being Dutch with a color.” Those who think differently then say “whatever you think your identity is, whites will always see you as Black/Muslem/Chinese/etc.”
I think (but then again, what do I know?) that you and your friend are representatives of each way of thinking. And there is some truth in both statements. There are stupid whites who never will see anything else than your skin-color. However, I think it is just as stupid to let your identity depend on what others might think of you.
Moreover, it is a matter of choice if you let your identity depend on your heritage. From my mother’s side, it appears I got French ancestors. They came to the Netherlands in the late 19th century, and all I inherited from them is dark hair. Now, you can see me as France-descended, but actually, I do not feel any connection with France because of my ancestry. I am Dutch, not French-Dutch. Do you consider that as “being brainwashed?
Anyway, all the best and thanks for your reply.
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“Jeff Elberfeld,
I do not know your friend, but I do not think she will see much on the list that connects with her. True, both descend from Africa, but then again, don’t we all?”
Linda says,
So then tell me– if Black Pete does not have anything in common with my friend or any other black person in the Netherlands
then why do white Dutch people call black people “Black Pete”?
My friend was called black Pete by her classmates as a child while going to school, that is why she acknowledge it as a practice that is quite common in the Netherlands.
what criteria were the white children using to connect her and the other black children to Black Pete?
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“Jeff Elberfeld,
I do not know your friend, but I do not think she will see much on the list that connects with her. True, both descend from Africa, but then again, don’t we all?
Linda says,
regardless if you call yourself French or Dutch or both– at the end of the day, ethnically, you are European
my friend also believes she is ethnically European because her nationality is Dutch
Your nationality is Dutch,
genetically/ethnically– you come from European tribes (ex. Germanic, Flemish, Frisian, Franks, Huguenots) that each form an ethnic group
culturally you are Dutch
by today’s standards of race- you are white
You call yourself European because your ancestors are come from tribes that are indigenous to the Continent of Europe.
My friends ancestors are indigenous to the Continent of Africa.
Her Nationality is Dutch,
genetically/ethnically– she belong to African tribes (but unlike you, she has no clue which ethnic groups she belongs to)
culturally, she is as Curaçaoan/Caribbean and Dutch
the problem that I see with how she views herself, is that she believes since she is culturally “Dutch”, she also views herself as ethnically European and not ethnically African
this stems her being taught, like all of us Caribbeans from a certain generation, that the Netherlands was always considered the “mother country”
(for us Jamaicans, we were taught that England was the “mother country”)
so you tell me, in Europe, would ethnic white Europeans see my black Caribbean friend as ethnically European too? is she just like them
will the Russians claim her as a “fellow European sister”
would they think she is European or African by just looking at her and not speaking to her to find out her Nationality or cultural identity?
I’ve lived in Europe, and I have my experience that gives me the answer,
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“Jeff Elberfeld,@
It sounds very much like what Whoopi Goldberg said lately:
“You know what uh uh! This is my country,” Goldberg said. “My mother, my grandmother, my great-grand folks, we busted ass to be here. I’m sorry. I’m an American. I’m not an African-American, I’m not a chick American, I’m an American!”
Linda says,
Whoopi Goldberg’s nationality is “American”– she is correct.. she is a United States of American citizen.
and She is also culturally “American” (USA) also, so she is correct
there is no nationality or ethnic group called “African American”
The term African American is a cultural identity.
The term is relatively new and not all black Americans agree on it’s usage, so hence – the rejection of the term to describe their cultural affiliation.
but what Whoopi and most black Americans know, is that they are ethnically, African descendants
and many are mixed-race, so they are also ethnically European or Asian, or Native American.
that’s why Whoopi did an ancestry search to find out who she was
http://www.sierraexpressmedia.com/?p=64253
“You sit with (white) folks who say, ‘My family goes back to County Cork, (Ireland)’ or, ‘My family goes back to Sicily,’ ” actress Whoopi Goldberg says in African American Lives. “And you say, ‘Umm, I don’t know, I think Florida.’ ”
Testing commissioned by the program found that Goldberg was related to the Pepel and Bayote people, who live near the Atlantic Coast in Guinea-Bissau.
Commenting on her DNA discovery, she wrote to SaloneJamboree: “It’s a wonderful thing to be able to pinpoint where your blood originates, so it means I know where home is.”
it’s another part of the “who and where did I come from” puzzle
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Correction:
African-American is considered to be an Ethnic group in the USA
that’s why the term was created — to emphasize that black Americans have origins or partial origins that came from Africa
since European ethnic groups often times emphasize their ethic origins
ex. Irish-Americans, Italian-Americans, German-Americans
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I believe it
if you would have told them you were “French”, they would have given you the side eye.
both you and I know the answer to the question I posed to Jeff
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Thanks, Jeff, it had slipped my mind that “that natural haired negro” had already been named.
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Linda, I rather disagree with the way you seem to understand the fields of meaning of
Dutch, ethnically, tribes, European, African and so on. About 1 in 4 of the people in the European part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands, originating from its current Caribbean parts, seem to have assimilated completely (Mind you that the people from the six inhabited islands were not analyzed separately), so her complete acceptance of herself as Dutch, is rather common. It makes a lot more sense to see yourself part of a multi-ethnic nation, which fully recognized your family as citizens from the moment they were no longer slaves (in theory, at least), to see your own ethnicity as one built from the fragments of previous ones, than to consider yourself as part of a people in Africa, you do not know the culture of, because you are a matrilinear descendant of one of them,…
Why would some people call certain normally pigmented people “Zwarte Piet”?
It depends on the situation, in some cases it may be just mistaken identity, but beyond that: Small common reference pool. It is often the first “word” they learn, which is used to describe a group of dark people. I rather doubt that the hooligan types learn many other ones to do so, and certainly NOT ones less offensive. As transcedent monopietist I blame the multipietists for that.
The offensiveness of the insult, for the more philosophically inclined, seems to be mostly in the implied lack of roots, in the denial of identity. The character is so much a part of Dutch culture, that “Zwarte Pieten!” seems a much more likely spontaneous expression to indicate dark people, be it their natural shade, paint or dirty skin (think of brave firefighters, for instance) than, any other indication for dark people, which would be much less likely to be considered as funny.
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teddy1975 @ so her complete acceptance of herself as Dutch, is rather common.
Linda says,
No sh’t Sherlock.. that’s what I wrote, so I don’t know what you are disagreeing with.
I’ve lived in Europe and I’m from the Caribbean… I know how it works in both regions– your unnecessary input was not needed
If you don’t mind, this discussion is between Jeff and myself.
I have no interest in hearing what you have to say
because as far as I’m concerned, and you’ve just proven it with your last comment, you are an id’ot and a racist in denial of reality.
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First, if you want a private debate, don’t do it in public
I wrote:
“It makes a lot more sense to see yourself part of a multi-ethnic nation, which fully recognized your family as citizens from the moment they were no longer slaves (in theory, at least), to see your own ethnicity as one built from the fragments of previous ones, than to consider yourself as part of a people in Africa, you do not know the culture of, because you are a matrilinear descendant of one of them,…”
In response to what you wrote:
genetically/ethnically– she belong to African tribes (but unlike you, she has no clue which ethnic groups she belongs to)”
No, an ethnic group is a group sharing: ancestry, language, religion, celebrations, a common reference pool, it is anthropologically seen rather the cultural than the genetic ancestry side of one´s identity. Though different ethnic groups have different ideas about who belongs to them, generally speaking one can say that not even the Ndyuka, can be said to belong to an African ethnicity. If you do not know who at least some of the gods of your ancestors were, if you do not speak their language(s), do not tell and listen to the stories they did, about their deeds and words, do not learn their system of writing, your ethnic group is not theirs.
Your use of the word is rather typically for US English,people immigrated, and had their ethnicities, for instance Italian, but their greatgrandchildren did not speak Italian anymore, did not sing Italian anymore, and when it came to Italian cooking, they still did that, but not more than their ethnically Polish, Norwegian, AfroAmerican and Cuban neighbours. So in the run of time the meaning changed from indicating membership of a culture, to indicating the place your ancestors came from, and indeed becomes quite easily a weaselword for race, in some of its meanings.
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teddy1975
I can choose who I want to have a discussion with teddy and I choose not to have it with you.
you are a racist, anything you say, is still bull of sh’t
but do carry on this conversation with yourself and enjoy
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Linda, listen to the wise white man for Pete’s sake!
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Look Linda, that is the entire problem with the entire Piet issue, both sides refuse to listen to each other, and characterize each other as “racists” and “foreigners”, without any evidence that either clue would be true, though using foreign (as in not from the Netherlands or its (former) colonies) material to make the “racism” charge against a Dutch ethnic custom, seems to support that the “racist”-yellers are indeed not part of the Dutch ethnos, but rather set themselves apart from that ethnos and accuse it of being a racist one, which is a very serious allegation and cannot be countered with a soundbite. They went in for a fight with words at the highest level and thus likely to turn in just a fight.
And though most serious lovers of the character, and lovers of impersonating it, which are two different, but overlapping categories, are nice and friendly folks, though sometimes a bit racial insensitive and their sanity may be out with the faeries, when the “racist” accusation was launched, and a possibility for violence was created, the rightwing extremists turned out in support of the character, so the “racist”-yellers had gotten truth to their accusation too.
By this time, most people had classified the debate as boring and ignored it, and continued to do what they had always done concerning Piet. Oh, and a friendly “you are a racist” to you too, that accusation becomes meaningless if it is used too much, too unthinkingly and that only makes the real ones more acceptable, as demonstrated here.
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Herneith, let me gently correct that sentence:
“Linda, listen to
the wise white manhow loud that dimwit dog barks for Pete’s sake!”Yes, Hernieth… I agree that racist dog needs a muzzle, he is making a lot of noise and needs to go entertain his associates on the National Front website!
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I already stated that this teddy 1975 jackhole is nothing but a racist piece of sh*t.
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Oh, and a friendly “you are a racist” to you too, that accusation becomes meaningless if it is used too much, too unthinkingly and that only makes the real ones more acceptable, as demonstrated here.
This only applies to white folk teddy.
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So then tell me– if Black Pete does not have anything in common with my friend or any other black person in the Netherlands
then why do white Dutch people call black people “Black Pete”?
My friend was called black Pete by her classmates as a child while going to school, that is why she acknowledge it as a practice that is quite common in the Netherlands.
what criteria were the white children using to connect her and the other black children to Black Pete?
Hi, Linda,
Sorry for the delay, but I have been rather busy lately.
I believe something went wrong in the communication. I replied on your comment why your friend “doesn’t feel connected to the image of Piet, who is black and African (and mind you, she is both black and an African-descendant, just like Piet)” That is why I said that she did not see many criteria on the list that connects with her. I was not talking about white Dutch people.
That said, to answer your question: like I said before, I have black hair. Moreover, I have large eyebrows.That, was enough for relative strangers to call me “Mr. Bean” (a childish buffoon from a BBC-sitcom, who at most speaks only a few mumbled words). I do not feel connected with Mr. Bean at all, just like your friend doesn’t feel any connection with Black Pete.
However, the need for others to get some grip on reality, and/or the idea that connecting people with well-known persons/characters is fun, doesn’t need that many criteria. Only some superficial similarities would be enough for that.
I hope it answers your question.
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so you tell me, in Europe, would ethnic white Europeans see my black Caribbean friend as ethnically European too? is she just like them
will the Russians claim her as a “fellow European sister”
would they think she is European or African by just looking at her and not speaking to her to find out her Nationality or cultural identity?
Linda, what Russians think of your friend is beyond the scope of this discussion.
Saying that all white Europeans are “ethnically European” sounds like… well, as if a black American, who looks at Europe, is saying that.
After the Second World War, most Europeans have learnt that stressing too much on ethnicity can only lead to disasters. The war in Bosnia was one of the last disasters in that field.
That is why I prefer a more Zen-like approach to people: not based on skin-color, but based on what they are: a friend, neighbor or colleague. And I hope more people will do that. (are you, teddy1975?)
Final point: Huguenots are no tribes members in the way of the others you mentioned they are members of a French Protestant denomination.
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Linda had to go to her cleaning job, so she is unable to respond. Looks like you’re SOL. By the way, I clean toilets for a living, with my 70 iq, it was the only one I could get short of collecting a welfare cheque. I am not looking down on Linda for being a cleaning woman. These are the only type of jobs we can get short of singing and dancing or being good at sports. The only thing I can do with my 50 iq or is it 65? is wield toilet brushes.
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Linda says,
Jeff, I asked you be genuine but I see you have a problem with that!
if you can’t keep up the usage of English phrases because Google translate is giving you problems, that’s not my problem.
you didn’t answer any of my questions, you side-stepped all of them
whether I use a Russian or an Englishman as my example, it doesn’t change the fundamental question — which you choose not to answer
“If white Europeans see my black friend walking down the street– will they think she is African or European??
if these white people don’t speak to her or know her personally, will they think “she is European just like me”???
you’re afraid to answer the question because you don’t want to admit that you were wrong.
your approach doesn’t matter, we are discussing the Netherlands and European societies and its/their general views.
I lived in Europe for a number of years and remain friends with many people from different European countries, west and formerly Communist east side… I get firsthand information and don’t have to rely on American media
or a disingenuous white Europeans, who want to protect the racist elements of their culture.
I asked you to be honest and not try to deflect, but I see that concept escapes you and you can’t help yourself.
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Linda says,
what you said is false and misleading to any real Americans on this blog, who have never stepped foot off the Continent.
We have Europeans also on this blog, so you can keep your LIES to yourself.
Ethnicity and history means everything to Europeans, so please cut the crap.
Ethnic cleansing is part and parcel of Europeans history
and Ethnic cleansing is what has kept the Continent “white” and filled with “indigenous ethnic Europeans” up until the last 50 years…
and the way things are progressing, another round will be coming up soon in Europe’s quest to expel North Africans and “Muslims”
Like I said, you can’t seem to be honest and you assume that the rest of us are blind to the truth
Thanks for nothing, I guess we’re done
_________________________________
for all of you Americans who don’t know what’s happening in Europe and what Jeff wants to hide:
The general public in most European countries, who are moderate and liberal people, are now siding with the racist far-right parties due to the recent migrant surge… they are calling for the migrants and immigrants to be removed from Europe. (this is not new, but it has picked up serious momentum)
“FAR-RIGHT parties are on the march across Europe as the unprecedented migrant crisis gripping the continent fuels a surge in support for nationalist movements.
This shocking map shows how anti-immigration campaigners have enjoyed huge gains in this year’s elections, whilst thousands have taken to the streets to protest against the overwhelming influx of migrants and refugees.
From Greece to Germany and Switzerland to Sweden, far-right protestors and parties have stormed the mainstream of European politics as voters rebel against years of predominantly socialist rule. “
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/629022/EU-migration-crisis-far-right-parties-Europe-Germany-Sweden-France
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Lets read about how Europeans love multi-culturalism:
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/629068/EU-deports-migrants-143-000-years-to-send-everyone-home-refugee-crisis-Europe?_ga=1.211958033.423379805.1453674857
“EU deports only SEVEN migrants a day, so it would take 143,000 YEARS to send everyone home
The revelations came as EU member states continue to effectively retreat on a deal to relocate migrants across the continent by refusing to take in their quota.
A paltry 15 services have been put on by border bosses since the scheme began, with just TWO leaving the continent in the last two months.
Official statistics show just 658 migrants have been put on return flights since European border force Frontex pledged to kick out failed asylum seekers in September.
Most of the flights laid on by Frontex have been returning migrants to Pakistan, Nigeria and Balkan states outside the EU. ”
(because there are so many Nigerians walking across the border {sarcasm} it has begun…
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Jeff, I asked you be genuine but I see you have a problem with that!
if you can’t keep up the usage of English phrases because Google translate is giving you problems, that’s not my problem.
????
you didn’t answer any of my questions, you side-stepped all of them
whether I use a Russian or an Englishman as my example, it doesn’t change the fundamental question — which you choose not to answer
…because you genuinely believe that Russians and Britains are complete interchangeable in culture, history and behaviour, I guess. All right, if you say so.
“If white Europeans see my black friend walking down the street– will they think she is African or European??
if these white people don’t speak to her or know her personally, will they think “she is European just like me”???
I would think that the answer on such questions depend on the ethnic composition of the country. It matters a lot whether you see a Jamaican in Brighton or in Minsk, to give two not-that-random examples..
you’re afraid to answer the question because you don’t want to admit that you were wrong.
your approach doesn’t matter, we are discussing the Netherlands and European societies and its/their general views.
Actually, we were discussing the Netherlands and Black Pete here.
I lived in Europe for a number of years and remain friends with many people from different European countries, west and formerly Communist east side… I get firsthand information and don’t have to rely on American media
or a disingenuous white Europeans, who want to protect the racist elements of their culture.
So you cannot be wrong, since you have European friends? That sounds a lot like “I cannot be racist, since I have Black friends.”(see https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/07/31/some-of-my-best-friends-are-black/ )
.
I asked you to be honest and not try to deflect, but I see that concept escapes you and you can’t help yourself.
Well, at least I did not move the topic of discussion to Russia.
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what you said is false and misleading to any real Americans on this blog, who have never stepped foot off the Continent.
We have Europeans also on this blog, so you can keep your LIES to yourself.
Interesting. Please tell me where I lied and mislead. With quotes and links to sources, evidently.
Ethnicity and history means everything to Europeans, so please cut the crap.
Ethnic cleansing is part and parcel of Europeans history
and Ethnic cleansing is what has kept the Continent “white” and filled with “indigenous ethnic Europeans” up until the last 50 years…
Hm. It is interesting to see how Linda knows Europeans and European History better than that I do.
As far as I have heard, British pupils only hear about “H & H” (Henry VIII and Adolf Hitler) at history class. Here in the Netherlands, glorifying history is seen as something the Nazis did.
And for the history-part: anyone can make a distorted selection of events in which a person/group/country/continent can look good or bad. That is not that impressive. What matters is the lesson is learnt from the events that have taken place.
and the way things are progressing, another round will be coming up soon in Europe’s quest to expel North Africans and “Muslims”
Thank you for watching in your crystal ball. Mine is broken, you see. And could you elaborate why you put “Muslims” in brackets?
Like I said, you can’t seem to be honest and you assume that the rest of us are blind to the truth
Thanks for nothing, I guess we’re done
Too bad your friendliness was only thin-layered. I wish we could have gone further discussing the real topic of this blogpost.
(And unfortunately, Linda again switches the topic hereafter, this time to the refugee-crisis in Europe. Nobody touched this topic so far in this discussion, and I do not see any relevance to it. Well, it might even be somewhat acceptable if Linda just had not accused me of deflecting. Now it just looks rather strange to me.)
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So, I finally got around to reading the Wiki article on Zwarte Piet that Jeff Elberfeld linked to upthread, and I’m astounded that he apparently thought it would vindicate him.
Instead, the Wiki article clearly links the demon Krampus with Zwarte Piet.
According to this article, the Zwarte Piet tradition almost definitely has its roots in the most vile calumny: equating black Africans with the devil, with demons, with hell, with sin, with wickedness, with evil, with damnation, with the enemy of God.
Teddy1975 has been going on all this time about Piet standing for the “more or less innocent ones in chains,” but the Wiki article indicates that Piet’s origins lie in medieval depictions of a captured demon, often black in color, being led in chains by St. Nicholas. Not an innocent prisoner at all, but a foul creature of hell.
The Italian anecdote proves nothing. Whether the “frizzy haired Negro” was a servant or an outright slave, he would have had little choice but to do as his master bid him. If his master wanted him to impersonate a demon from hell to amuse the white children, then that’s what he would have had to do.
To expose children to such extremely racist beliefs in the guise of a Christian celebration is revolting.
“Maybe it is interesting stuff to discuss” indeed.
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Jeff,
everything you just wrote is one big “blah, blah, blah, and BLAH”
you still didn’t answer my question… the answer only needs 1 word
African or European… that’s it, nothing else
the only person who is side-stepping, going up the pass, through the bushes, into the forest and back again, with the goal post is YOU.
you have said Nothing… you wrote a long a’s comment that said NOTHING,
you have absolutely No credibility on this blog and you are dishonest.
Like I said, I’m done with you… you are full of sh’t and you’re wasting my time.
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So, I finally got around to reading the Wiki article on Zwarte Piet that Jeff Elberfeld linked to upthread, and I’m astounded that he apparently thought it would vindicate him.
I do not know what I wrote what needed to be vindicated, but I am glad you thought it was interesting stuff! 🙂
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@ Jeff Elberfeld
Re vindication: You have expressed throughout this thread what appears to be your belief that Zwarte Piet is a harmless non-racist tradition which should continue. Is that not correct?
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@#Solitaire
The most things I said were merely factual. If I put together everything I wrote concerning the Black Pete-figure, you get:
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
I’ve seen plenty black kids wearing Black-Pete-costumes last month; I don’t think any black kid in the USA would wear any minstrel-show clothing nowadays.
By the way, the part “He lacks intelligence, coordination and speaks broken Dutch.” isn’t correct anymore [in the current TV-show, at least].
I’ve seen newspaper articles calling Pete a slave, but I never heard anyone making the argument of the pre-WWII songs calling Pete a slave.
In the debate concerning the tradition, a lot of facts on Black Pete are twisted or just simply ignored, just to keep the narrative straight. And the further you dig into it, the more bizarre it gets. But that is what happens with somewhat unofficial festivities.
Black Pete with someone who:
a. wears 16th-century clothing;
b. doesn’t exist for real;
c. is based on someone lived about two centuries ago, or else on a book of 165 years ago;
d. works as an logistics officer to distribute presents among children;
e. is employed by a bishop;
f. is VERY popular among kids;
g. has a dark skin;
h. has a yearly trip by steamboat from Spain to the Netherlands.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
I do not know if those statements are enough to say it is a “harmless non-racist tradition which should continue.”
I’ll leave that to the readers over here.
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@ Jeff Elberfeld
Ok, then. Let’s concentrate on that Italian story you thought would be such an interesting thing to discuss.
What did you think was the significance of that story about the Italian diplomat and his “negro” servant who dressed up as Zwarte Piet to entertain the white children? You said that you thought many readers of this blog would be unfamiliar with that tidbit of history. What did you think we would gain from knowledge of it?
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It is interesting because:
1. It shows Black Pete is at least 22 years older than Abagond wrote in the opening post;
2. It shows that the chimney-story can be debunked with historical arguments;
3. It was not mentioned before, and I think it is a relevant piece of the puzzle when searching for the origins of Black Pete.
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@ Jeff Elberfeld
I see. Thank you for the explanation.
I’m not sure how familiar you are with the historical phenomenon during the Age of Exploration (Colonization, Exploitation) of white Europeans equating people of color with the devil or his demons. In English literature and letters from that era, the most famous example is Caliban in “The Tempest” by Shakespeare, but there are many others.
Of course I am no expert, but mulling over the various pieces of data so far presented in this thread, I propose the following may be what happened.
Somewhere in the early or medieval stages of Christianity, the legend arose of St. Nicholas capturing a demon and holding it in bondage to serve him. This demon at some point became represented in the festivities surrounding St. Nicholas’ Day. In medieval times, the demon most likely did not have any physical attributes of African people but instead was thought of as looking much like the demon in the illuminated manuscript that is on the Wiki page you linked to. Perhaps the early costumes were similar to the cloth one in the photo of Knecht Ruprecht upthread and were meant to represent something like that medieval illustration, a fantastical creature, rather than a specific race of human.
But then with the arrival of the African slave trade and the European tendency to equate black skin with black devils, someone got the bright idea (/s) to have an African man portray St. Nicholas’ black demon. Perhaps it was the Italian diplomat who first thought of this, or perhaps he simply brought to the Dutch something he had seen done in Italy or elsewhere. And the trend caught on in the Netherlands, so that Zwarte Piet quickly came to resemble an African, whether the individual portraying him was actually an African or instead a European in blackface.
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Of course Solitaire, it is COMPLICATED, that is something I tryt o explain. Different traditions did combine in the figure of Zwarte Piet, the original association of the black figure with the St. Nicholas celebration may differ from place to place, though there seems to be no evidence for a widespread Dutch “devil companion” (but mind, Calvinists tried to eradicate the celebration of the name days of all Saints, which rather kept the celebration at the undocumented grass root level and locally very different before the publication of Schenkman’s book.), evidence for more Krampus like versions of St.Nicholas himself and Krampus like groups of celebrants (still extant in a few places) ,i.e. the use of black face paint, is present. The 19th century is VERY late to suspect an influence from the African slave trade, no, it is rather the emancipation of the Roman Catholics, which enabled Saint Nicholas impersonators to go dressed like a bishop in full regalia, which got the main impersonator out of the black face paint but still had a black figure associated with the celebration. Though the root of the very figure of Pete might be accidental, the already extant association with a black figure explains its success and is thus also a root for the character and even more so for the celebration, about which the Dutch Council of State (est.1531), advisor to government and one of the four highest Dutch courts has just stated that its contents are no business of the government, but that its contents are protected by the freedom of expression, which they grant was not the case before, but is now the case because of the discussion, mind you they did so as part of advice to kill a law proposal by anti-immigrant Geert Wilders to freeze the tradition in its “current” uncomfortable form, killing the living tradition.
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One comment about “black” people in the Netherlands, for a time they were for such a large percentage from Suriname that even Afro-Suri-Dutch themselves assumed every gainfully employed black person encountered to be one of them. So at least for a time, that black person on the street would have been assumed to be American.
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@Solitaire: This agrees with my own research on the topic. “Black Pete” started out as a devil of some kind and then was replaced with an African “Moor” in the 1850s or thereabout — a very suspicious connection which smells like racism.
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@ mike4ty4
And if Black Pete was originally a devil, that could explain the harsher side to the character: punishing naughty children, whipping them with birches and carrying them away to Spain (a stand-in for hell?)
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@ Jeff Eberfeld & teddy1975
As I said above, I live in an African society, and as such I’m not affected by those traditions of today’s Dutch society.
My position is a very general one: all mature society must at some point in time review their traditions and cultural practices, be able to separate the good things from the bad things and get rid from those aspects that are not more acceptable in the modernity.
To explain better what I have in mind let me give two examples outside the Netherlands (ongoing questions, by the way…)
In Portugal – and indeed in the whole Iberian peninsula – there is the old practice of tourada or bullfight where bulls are killed in a sports-like bloody ritual under the watch of a cheering crowd.
Today, with the changed perceptions about proper treatment of animals many people question if it is really adequate to maintain such practices. And I believe that their point of view is gaining ground year by year. In a not distant future probably those traditional practices will be dead.
In African societies many people maintain a belief system where some phenomena are interpreted as an effect of witchcraft: to interpret health conditions and personal advance or misfortune in life. I can personally attest that such beliefs oft function as a toxic in social relations in general, creating mistrust between individuals. Oft, true believers of witchcraft maintain a almost paranoid view vis-a-vis their fellow citizens and even close family members: misfortune or illness is blamed on envy by others, who are next, and use of witchcraft by them!
What’s the point of maintaining such traditions if it’s clear that nothing or almost nothing positive come from them, and actually, it can be argued that many bad things result from them?
The more enlightened sectors of African societies fight for the removal of such “traditions” or, if you want, their modernization as a part of the progress they want to see in their societies.
My questions to you are:
* Do you believe that the Zwarte Piet tradition is essential in any way for the survival of the Dutch national identity? Or, not at all?
* Do you see that nowadays there are many Dutch nationals descended from oversee dark skinned people who can be confounded, at least in the spirit of small White children, as an embodiment of the Zwarte Piet, in flesh and blood? At least when their parents did not give them the proper explanations? And are you not able to see that the consequences of those “confusions” once planted in the child mind, can be an adding factor in the formation of future prejudices in the adult mind?
* Is it difficult for you to understand that the existence of such character in traditional practices can also confound a dark skinned child about him- or herself and create unnecessary identity issues when growing up? (The fact that some dark skinned children participate themselves in Zwarte Piet’s parades doesn’t mean that such questions of identity do not cross their minds; the fact is that people everywhere try their best to adapt to their surroundings, whatever those may be; you must go deeper than the surface, inside their minds, to access the possible identity issues aroused as a consequence of exposition to those traditional narratives)
* Finally: don’t you believe that everybody in the Netherlands would be better off if this specific trait of the Dutch traditions where removed?
Regards
munu aka Bantu
P.S.:
I’m glad to say that despite everything negative that some quarters say about Africa, the fact remains that in this continent, seldom you’ll find a country or society where it’s routinely being made fun of Europeans or White people in our “traditional narratives”. Our traditions are cleaner in that regard!
Anyway, I doubt that we need to make fun of anybody in this planet!
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Errata:
Where is “oversee” should be “overseas”.
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“I’m glad to say that despite everything negative that some quarters say about Africa, the fact remains that in this continent, seldom you’ll find a country or society where it’s routinely being made fun of Europeans or White people in our “traditional narratives”.”
.
The same can be said of Africans everywhere, as far as I know, Munubantu.
Even the descendants of slaves have no traditional narratives that routinely pokes fun at white people.
After 500 years of racial oppression, your African brothers in Amerika have learned that white people in general are not compelled to do better and will not remove the yoke of racism because we treat them with unrequited respect.
People who feel inwardly superior to other groups have no inclination towards treating those they look down on with respect and dignity. Their mission is to use any reason under the sun not to ..
Perhaps in another 500 years they might learn to be polite.
Or whenever they lose their power.
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@munubantu what we can see in mainstream media (mostly from the bbc) regarding african witchcraft is sometimes execution of practicioners particularly in muslim territories or mostly albinos being hunted for body parts?
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@v8driver
That a few albino individuals have being killed recently and their bodies used for ritualistic purposes is true and sad. It’s true also that sometimes people get killed, in remote rural areas, and sometimes in the periphery of large urban centers because somebody spread the belief that he/she was practicing witchcraft.
What I was saying in my last comment is that the underlying beliefs that cause such behaviors – namely, that there are out there on the loose, supernatural forces, which are object of manipulation by certain individuals, for good (spiritual healers) or for bad (witches) – are held by a large sector of the African population.
I personally don’t share such beliefs and I attribute to them some social malaises, like a general mistrust that people sometimes have in relation to other people with whom their share part of their life, in work settings or at home, but whom they are ready to attack suddenly because somebody convinced them that those others have been harming them through the use of witchcraft. Almost in every case such accusations have no foundation at all, but can nevertheless cause irreversible damage to human relationships. Such beliefs are simply toxic!
Such beliefs come from traditional systems of thinking which merged with ideas which sprung from more modern urban environments where people coming from very different origins come to live or work together. A lot of quackery is mixed in the pan!
And poverty is also a trigger of some mass behavior of that sort.
From time to time you see in the news that a son killed his/her parents because he/she believed that they made something (witchcraft?) which is causing him/her to not being able to find a job, for example.
The more enlightened sectors of African societies try to attack such belief systems and replace, where possible, by more rational ways of interpreting the natural and social environment.
My point is that a mature society must confront its demons!
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Ab – What do make of the Zulu Krewe in NOLA during Mardi Gras?
Maybe Black Pete was originally used in the same way.
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I’m only asking this because this post prompted a discussion about Black Pete with a guy from Curacao around the holidays. It’s Mardi Gras season down here and Zulu are the most popular of the Black Krewes. They are known for their blackface, grass skirts and agro wigs. ‘There goes your Black Pete.’, he said to me at a recent event.
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@ Uglyblackjohn
Wow, blackface? How is this not a thing?
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@manubantu
My apologies for not responding earlier, but I believe you deserved a more elaborate answer.
* Do you believe that the Zwarte Piet tradition is essential in any way for the survival of the Dutch national identity? Or, not at all?
Yes, with as a side note that I believe that the offensive elements of the tradition can disappear without hurting the Dutch identity.
* Do you see that nowadays there are many Dutch nationals descended from oversee dark skinned people who can be confounded, at least in the spirit of small White children, as an embodiment of the Zwarte Piet, in flesh and blood? At least when their parents did not give them the proper explanations? And are you not able to see that the consequences of those “confusions” once planted in the child mind, can be an adding factor in the formation of future prejudices in the adult mind?
No, since a recent study shows that 5-year-old Dutch children do not make a connection between dark skinned people and Zwarte Piet (who, in the same study, is regarded by 5-year-olds as smart, hard-working and friendly).
See http://www.trouw.nl/tr/nl/4492/Nederland/article/detail/4200847/2015/12/03/Kinderen-zijn-blind-voor-kleur-Zwarte-Piet.dhtml (Dutch)
And as long there is no better study available that proves this one wrong, my answer stays “no.”
* Is it difficult for you to understand that the existence of such character in traditional practices can also confound a dark skinned child about him- or herself and create unnecessary identity issues when growing up? (The fact that some dark skinned children participate themselves in Zwarte Piet’s parades doesn’t mean that such questions of identity do not cross their minds; the fact is that people everywhere try their best to adapt to their surroundings, whatever those may be; you must go deeper than the surface, inside their minds, to access the possible identity issues aroused as a consequence of exposition to those traditional narratives)
No. I could expand on this, but I consider that everybody understands that a constant exposure to cheap jokes at your expense can be hurtful at least.
* Finally: don’t you believe that everybody in the Netherlands would be better off if this specific trait of the Dutch traditions where removed?
In a way, I think it does. It would end a vitriolic, divisive discussion that does not contribute to a better society. But on the other hand, I still hope there is a way to save the tradition without hurting any feelings.
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I did see a documentary about the history of Mardi Gras, and I saw that blackface and Afro wigs and it kind of stirred up some anger in me just like that deplorable black Pete fu*kery.
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In the documentary about Mardi Gras it was I was enlightened and angry at the same time because given the history of the South and the state of Louisiana and the city of New Orleans racism and colorism and social economic status plays a big part in how the krews are created. So I guess I shouldn’t have been too surprised when I saw the blackface and those effed up caricatures in the Mardi Gras parades.
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