Daniel Holtzclaw (1986- ), an American police officer, has been accused of rape and sexual assault by 12 Black women and one Black girl in the part of Oklahoma City he was to protect and serve. He has been arrested and fired. The trial began this past week and is expected to last a month.
Oh, and the jury is all White. Even the alternate jurors are all White. The jury has twice as many men as women.
Oklahoma City in 2010 was 57% non-Hispanic White and 15% Black. In the state of Oklahoma, anyone with a state-issued ID, like a driver’s licence, can be called for jury duty, so in a place like Oklahoma City, an all-White jury is a bit odd.
Holtzclaw’s father is White, his mother is Japanese.
He faces 36 charges, stuff like:
- first-degree rape,
- forcible oral sodomy
- sexual battery,
- indecent exposure,
- first-degree burglary,
- stalking.
All of this was while on duty. He is a former football player and looks it.
He could face up to life in prison.
All this started in 2013 when he allegedly performed forcible oral sodomy on a woman high on drugs – and chained to a hospital bed.
His youngest accuser, 17, said he raped her on her mother’s porch while searching her for drugs.
He patrolled north-eastern Oklahoma City between 4.00pm and 2.00am. It seems he picked women who were poor or who he knew would not call the police because they were already in trouble with the law. He threatened them with arrest if they did not do what he wanted.
After seven months he got sloppy and picked on the wrong woman. After she came forward, so did six others. After he was arrested, six more came forward.
His lawyer will use their past against them: few are squeaky clean. His lawyer will be helped by the fact that Whites have little empathy for Blacks and that all-White juries tend to be racist.
There is more:
Velencia Maiden is taking him to court for killing her son, Clifton Armstrong in 2013. Armstrong was Black and unarmed. He suffered from paranoia and schizophrenia. When he called 911 for medical assistance, Holtzclaw and three other officers arrived to take him to the hospital – in a police car, not an ambulance. When Armstrong refused, saying he would rather have his grandmother take him, they hog-tied him. By the time he got to the hospital, he was dead.
The police investigation found that the police officers had done nothing seriously wrong.
The medical examiner found that Armstrong had died not of excessive force by police but of “excited delirium syndrome”.
Excited delirium syndrome is found in no book of psychiatry. It leaves no trace in the human body that can be found by a medical examiner. Instead it is based largely on police accounts. It first appeared in the 1980s and was blamed on cocaine. Now there are probably several hundred cases a year in the US. In nearly all known cases, the sufferer had been fighting with police.
– Abagond, 2015.
Update (December 11th): Holtzclaw was found guilty!!! He will be sentenced in January. The jury recommends 30 years in prison. – The Atlantic
Update (January 23rd 2016): Holtzclaw has been sentenced to 263 years in prison. – Democracy Now!
Sources: The Guardian, The Root, Colorlines, NPR.
See also:
- The Five Rules of Racial Standing
- White empathy
- Jezebel stereotype
- The police and Black women
- Kenneth Chamberlain – also called for medical assistance and wound up dead at the hands of the police
- Elliot Rodger
- Henry Louis Wallace
- drapetomania
562
He is vermin and he needs to be put under the jail he is deplorable and an animal and i hope he never gets out of jail.
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Obviously a Native American….
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White(or white passing) offender
Black victim(s)
All white, majority male jury
Sounds eerily familiar.
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@Lord of Mirkwood
Oklahoma is not a confederate state. Not everything in the south falls under a confederacy.
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Why try him he is guilty right! Why waste all of that money on a trial when you know he is guilty and is going to be found innocent by an AWJ!
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I hope that pos racist rapist gets prison for the rest of his life along with that pos men(the racist guard and the racist mass murderer) in Columbia and Charleston SC. Those men have neither remorse nor respect for Black women.
I don’t care if he’s white or mixed race nonblack peson of Color, he deserves to be punished. White and other nonblack men have a maddening entitlement complex to Black and multiracial Black womens’ bodies without consequence.
I thank Abagond and Brotha Wolf for bringing this guy and his evil, satanic crimes against Black women. #sayhername
SB
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Kiwi,
Just like Eliott Rodger. Both Holtzclaw and Rodger feel so entitled to womens’ bodies. Unlike Rodger, he targeted Black and multiracial Black women and felt he was above the law to do so since American society view us as jezebels who are always sexually available to nonblack men.
SB
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[…] Source: Daniel Holtzclaw […]
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People shouldn’t think this case is a one off. I’ve seen things like “isolated” and “surprising” these things do not apply. These are just standard things in the system of white supremacy.
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This is beyond horrible. Is there a chance that he’ll be convicted?
I have no words.
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He is a product of the racist, football worshiping culture.
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Is this him with his parents?
I am not about to make any excuse for him, but for Eurasian men who grow up with the white supremacist standard pushed around them all their lives, they often need to prove to white people (at least in their mind) that they are up to snuff, which means displaying to whites (esp. to southern whites) that they are willing to terrorize blacks. If Asians are in the area, they may terrorize them too, not to prove to whites that they are up to snuff, but to prove to themselves that they are better than Asians.
I’ve seen this before, and expect to see it over and over again.
I would not put this in the same category as a white guy who does it, because the motivation is likely quite different.
Maybe we need a post to describe about Eurasian male rage, because I really don’t think many readers here understand it at all. I think it is a problem that we, as a society as a whole, need to address. It will raise its violent ugly and racist head again soon enough anyhow.
Still, this guy needs to be locked up. But locking him up is not going to keep it from happening in the future.
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@Abagond,
You made a bit of a mistake there at the end. It should say “wound up”, not “woumd up”.
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@ Abagond
So long as Black people are designated as the lowest rung on the racial socioeconomic ladder, the George Zimmermans and Daniel Holtclaws (AND OTHER NON-WHITES) will feel perfectly entitled to engage in the dominant society’s collective mistreatment of Black people.
I don’t see this stopping until Black people decide to stop it.
Contrary to conventional wisdom, very few non-black people are truly afraid of Black people. (Their supposed fear of Black people is used as an excuse to marginalize/oppress/kill …)
If they were really afraid of Blacks, they would fear Black reactions to their violence, consequently making this type of oppression/mistreatment very rare.
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@Fan
Exactly. No more “Kumbayas” and the “long suffering nonsense” its time to demand for respect: DEMAND. I support the BlackLivesMatter movement and I hope they never get seduced by being invited to the White House or to the New York Times Headquarters. Viva Africa
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@ Everett F. Pomare
Thank you.
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His last name is German, not Native American
(http://names.whitepages.com/last/Holtzclaw)
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@ Jefe
That certainly looks like him.
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@ villagewriter – ‘…racist, football worshiping culture.’?
Like the Mizzou players putting their scholarships in jeopardy?
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White, mostly male jury? Yep, he’s gonna get off, scot-free.
@ Fan
I’ll just put it out there that if guys like Holtzclaw started disappearing left and right, mainstream America would be beside itself with panic. Black Americans don’t have to burn down stores or riot in the streets to get their point across. All it takes is a proactive step towards solving the problems that bedevil our society, on our own. They’ll get the message eventually.
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@uglyblackjohn
C’mon please stop pretending you do not understand what I am talking about. Who controls the NFL? What is done about the health of players when they retire? Why is it that most of the coaches are white? The Mizzou players would not be sacrificing anything if that racist culture of using black bodies for entertainment did not exist. Come back to me when African Americans have significant say in the NFL. (Not a fan of American Football btw)
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Jefe,
So you think other ppl were involved or he told other ppl about this?
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@ Uglyblackjohn
The university president just resigned!
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@ villagewriter – Oh, I understand what you are ‘trying’ to say.
This dude (Holtzclaw) didn’t play in the NFL. Greg Hardy (Dallas Cowboys) is currently suspended because it was found that he beat his girlfriend. The NFL doesn’t condone such behavior.
17% of the head coaches in the NFL are Black (The U.S. is only 13% Black)
A popular NFL coach came to my current town to ensure that one of his former players from the 80’s signed up to receive his $5mil from the league’s concussion fund. I know several players who still benefit from their playing years.
I’m opening a new sports bar in the next couple of weeks and I roll with current and former NFL and NBA players quite often. Some have admitted to and joked about hitting an ex in the past but it’s not seen as something to brag about.
There is a trade-off when it comes to any job/profession. The higher the risk the greater the pay off.
The Missouri kids are taking a stand when most of them are removed from the concerns of regular students. Not only that but they got most of their white teammates to join them. Football is the reason most people even paid attention to Butler’s hunger strike. If the football team fails to play their game against BYU the university would have to pay $1mil.
Come back to me when you have any idea of what you are talking about.
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@ Ab – I just saw that when I hit, ‘send’. They MADE their Black Lives Matter.
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@UglyblackJohn
I said come back to me when African Americans have significant say in the NFL; not when only 17 percent of them are coaches when we clearly know most of the players are black. It should be 40 percent and above. I stand by what I said; there is a culture of racism in American Football. Take it, scream, roll all over floor, I stand by what I said!
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I don’t know much about American Football but I have read about what happens to black players. Here are some of the articles that make me say what I say about the NFL (fans of the game; don’t kill me)
http://watercoolerconvos.com/2014/01/22/slavery-much-on-racism-in-the-nfl-richard-sherman-and-hypocrisy/
http://sevenscribes.com/the-nfls-war-on-the-black-body/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rashard-mendenhall/rashard-mendenhall-retirement-_b_4931316.html
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/08/richard-sherman-sterling-racism-nfl-nba
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@ villagewriter – Okay. Yeah, whatever, you win.
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@uglyblackJohn
I was not competing with you.
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It looks like he’s on steroids. Roid rage and roid rape. He’s a sociopathic predatory with a shiny badge. He preyed on those he is sworn to “protect” for twisted sexual gratification rooted in violence because our culture has a history of condoning this behavior whether at home or in war. To say that police presence in some communities is an “occupation” isn’t an exageration.
Even though he has been fired I’m going to presume his police union will fund his defense. That will be ugly with the defense dragging these women’s reputations through the mud to make them seem like thier not even human.
If he is found not guilty that just affirms what Blacks already know, that the justuce system enforces a hierarchy hard wired into “our democracy”.
“No justice, No peace” is real and whites seem incapable of grasping that. For whites our justice system epitomizes democracy and is what makes America “good”.
If Blacks can’t get any semblance of justice within this country what do they do ? As Mark Lyons pointed out that may entail taking the law into their own hands. I can’t disagree with that.
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@ villagewriter – Oh, no problem. I was just trying to stop before we went way off-topic.
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After seven months he got sloppy and picked on the wrong woman”
That “wrong” woman was a 57 yr old grandmother with no criminal record. When they dismiss the claims of the other women and attack their history, what will they say about her?
Like Elliot roger feeling he is entitled to women’s bodies, I wonder how much of their being Eurasian fuels that. They are half white half Asian, so being white entails privileges and being seen as the standard, while being an Asian male is seen as being weak, not cool, small. It is as if they are trying to prove their “whiteness” and “manliness”.
The difference between the two is Elliott wanted the popular girls and felt that his being half white should’ve made it easier to get them, While this pos targeted the most vulnerable women that couldn’t fight him. Both see black people as beneath them, Elliot couldn’t understand why the girls he liked would choose descendants of slaves over his royalty,and this devil chose black victims.
He will get some of the privileges, one being seen as more believable than the black women he did this too, and just like they did with Zimmerman whites will act like they have nothing to do with this all the while victim blaming and supporting him. But then again this isn’t getting much coverage compared to the other cases, I guess since the victims are black women.
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@ Mack Lyons (@DDSSBlog)
’ll just put it out there that if guys like Holtzclaw started disappearing left and right, mainstream America would be beside itself with panic. Black Americans don’t have to burn down stores or riot in the streets to get their point across. All it takes is a proactive step towards solving the problems that bedevil our society, on our own. They’ll get the message eventually.
I’m not exactly a fan of the use of violence or revenge tactics, but if we look at human history, ancient and modern, it’s clear that unfortunately violence is an effective medium to pass your message across during a socio-political dispute.
One case come to my mind as I think about this issue.
Those events happened in the beginning of the 90’s in South Africa. At that time the country was ruled by the Apartheid regime. After the Black youth’s revolts of the 70’s and mid 80’s the regime devised a strategy of using the Zulus and their Inkatha organisation to subvert the main dispute between the White minority and the Black majority into a dispute between two opposite Black groups: the revolutionary ANC and the “conservative” Inkatha. That violence was fueled clearly by the security apparatus of the regime, which not only threw some light weaponry to the Inkatha but even resorted to apolitical criminal elements who were freed from jail , given knives and other objects to go into killing sprees against the civilian population in the Black townships, in acts that were later attributed to the “ongoing black on black violence”. Those events were particularly ghastly in the large metropolitan area around the city of Johannesburg. Many, many* Blacks died as a result of these Machiavellian tactics which angered especially Mandela and the ANC leadership that was at the time engaged in lengthy and apparently stuck political conversations with the regime.
All this changed suddenly after a smaller and more “extremist” Black group, namely, the Azanian People’s Liberation Army (Pan African Congress’s armed wing?) began deadly and effective attacks against White civilians, like the Saint James Church massacre** and, as a commentator put it, “from now on, not only Black families would count the bodies of their loved ones; White families would do it too”.
Feeling certainly the heat coming from the growing number of dead White civilians, and its own inability to defend them, the regime took more seriously the conversations with their political opponents and much quicker than before entered in serious agreements with them in the so called “new political dispensation***” that lead the country to the first multiracial elections in 1994.
The rest is history…
*At thousands.
**https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_James_Church_massacre
***”New political dispensation”, expression used by the last Apartheid President, Frederick de Klerk, to mean the arrangement between the main political parties in South Africa, that lead to a democratic society there.
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@Kiwi
Doesn’t matter mentally and physically dude is a one ugly mutha…
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@ mstoogood4yall – There is a fairly recent study that suggests that men who feel less masculine are prone to being more violent. I think you are on to something in your analysis.
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@Kiwi
Some are some aren’t. It has nothing to do with white and asian breeding. You are a mirror reflection of “hate” if you think like that. This dude in particular is ugly mentally and physically. Look at his expression in that picture. His hate makes him uglier.
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To refer to couples having children as “breeding” dehumanizes the entire family.
Some first nation people were called “half breeds” as a reminder that they were still “savages” and therefore less then human.
What dehumanizes people are their actions not their looks.
That said our society dehumanizes people by their looks and not by their actions.
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@ Kiwi
My objection is the word “breeding” not your statement that follows. Breeding is derogatory towards women and suggest live stock.
I think your statement “the mindset of White men and Asian women who claim that Eurasian children are “more attractive” because the implication is that Asian children are less attractive due to Asian men being deemed unfit, weak, and undesirable as sexual partners ” can still be conveyed without using the word “breeding”.
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I would oppose any relationship that dehumanizes children.
I personally am not comfortable using the word “breeding”
I would be careful not to collectivize all WM/AW in such a manor.
I agree that some biracial children have identity issues and that in the case of Holtzclaw it may have played a part in the predator he became.
To oppose interracial relationships is a valid position. Their is nothing wrong with that belief. What would be wrong would be using force to interfere with the choices that other people make.
Its possible that I’m being “color blind” as opposed to “selective outrage”.
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@Kiwi
Considering it was Oklahoma, I assumed so because the N.A population is substantial. But there are plenty of White Father / Asian Mother dudes that come out alrite. But this particular guy is full of hate, hence why he targets people based on their race/ethnicity to defile them. I think if he was pure white or pure Asian he’d be the same with that mindset.. The city culture and wanting to fit in with the police force is the most likely cause. Look at him, he’s been picked on his whole life in the worst way possible…
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re: Kiwi’s statement
So, Eurasians (at least some of them) are dehumanized by their parents, but at the same time, Eurasians (at least some of them) are rightfully the target of Asian male rage.
Is this selective outrage, or is it possible (and also reasonable) to be dehumanized and despised simultaneously?
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@ michaeljonbarker
To oppose interracial relationships is a valid position. Their is nothing wrong with that belief. What would be wrong would be using force to interfere with the choices that other people make.
I can’t follow you in that one.
How can “opposition to interracial relationships be a valid position”?
Remember that, in this point in time, there are already many people, all over the world, who are the fruit of such relationships. So called mixed race people.
Can you even imagine being next to a mixed race person and argue in front of him/her that “the relationship between your mom and dad which created you was objectionable (at least for some people… and I’m fine with it anyway)“?
Contrary to some people who argue that mixing of races is not natural because the Creator Himself put people of different races in different continents and, therefore, He didn’t intend them to mix, I think that if He Himself objected to race mixing He would have turned such relationships fruitless, in the first place.
In practical terms I oft found that people who object to interracial relationships are, even if not openly, racists.
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To clarify their are both whites and Blacks who do not like interracial relationships. Kiwi seems to oppose WM/AW relationships. I don’t have a problem with people who think this way provided they don’t force their views on other people.
A person can be against those kind of relationships and it is racist thinking but what would make it wrong would be active interference against those people who want to make interracial choices in who they see and marry.
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@Mirkwood
Kiwi is writing about the very real effect white supremecy has an the Asian community. He is writing about his experience which is valid.
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The things that Kiwi and Jefe address in regards to Asians and white suorememcy are things that are not obvious to me.
I see racism against Blacks and Hispanics everyday but what they are addressing seems to me to be more under the surface. But because I haven’t seen it doesn’t make thier opinions invalid. It just means I’m culturally blind to it. I appreciate them making me aware of something I wouldn’t normally notice.
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[…] Sourced through Scoop.it from: abagond.wordpress.com […]
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Breed, breeders as opposed to gays, big deal. Kiwi don’t date out or sanction it. Are you surprised?
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@ Kiwi
Look, no matter how you twist it, the guy looks ‘Asian’. It’s a stain that what he did will most likely be attributed to Asians because of our marginalization in the Western Hemisphere. I’m severely bothered by it.
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Genetically speaking, from what I understand, the Japanese are closer to Native Americans (by way of Siberia) than they are to most people in China.
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@michaeljonbarker
I don’t think it is under the surface. At least you read (https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/11/02/the-three-pillars-of-american-white-supremacy/)
Have you ever taken an Asian American studies course, or read extensively on the subject? Where have you learned about the Asian American history and experience in America, as well as, say, the experience of Eurasians or Blasians? Did you ask yourself why you have a concept of racism against blacks but not others? How about against Native Americans?
If you still don’t get it, ask yourself the odds of seeing an Asian-American US president. or Native American. or a Muslim one.
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This is crazy. The only thing these people understand is fear and money. I don’t suggest marching, rioting or tweeting. If my child was brutalized by this man I, a woman, would do the same to his child. He does not have children so I’d have to go after his mother. It does not have to me immediate but it has to be done so he knows that revenge has been enacted.
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I hope I’m wrong when I say this, but he will likely walk. I don’t want to jinx anything, but if the jury is white and mostly men, it doesn’t look too good for the victims. Given this nation’s history of white men raping women of color, it’s sound to reason why any reasonable minded person should be worried about this.
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@ Brothawolf
It is a good sign that it even made it to trial, but yeah, the all-White jury of mainly men is troubling.
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He looks like downs-syndrome adult on steroids.
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We have our own slow-burn ISIS right here in our own states. Do you think they chuckle and scoff at our irony?
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All white jury? I thought jury’s were supposed to be chosen to prevent bias. Also , he looks like a roid freak.
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Holtzclaw found guilty.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/oklahoma-ex-police-officer-accused-025401232.html
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@ Michael Jon Barker: You beat me to it. I doubt he’ll get the max, but hopefully he’ll get a taste of his own medicine in prison.
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Update: Holtzclaw was found guilty!!! He will be sentenced in January. The jury recommends 30 years in prison. .
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/12/daniel-holtzclaw-trial-guilty/420009/
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Holtzclaw showed true contrition and regret as the verdicts were read.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCOLxrwMqmI)
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He is human garbage the women he victimized were poor black drug addicts. Women who basically society in general don’t care about. I read on another social media site it’s possible this cretin will get life in prison if found guilty. I hope he is released to the general population and he gets done to him what he did to those poor women. I saw in one news photo he is sitting in the courtroom with his attorney and he is crying. Really, I can’t believe he thinks he deserves mercy after the heinous things he did.
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Finally something done right. The defense did everything they could and still failed, had an all white jury with mostly white males, and tried to victim blame. This is important the victims were what society would ignore and not believe, i’m glad they had the strength and courage to tell their stories while knowing they might not receive justice. This is not an isolated incident I hope this shows that they can’t always get away with it and encourages more women and men to come forward and have the courage to tell their story.
I did not hold out much hope and there is still sentencing, but the jury got it right this time in the south nonetheless. my faith has not been completely restored, but this is a victory.
The women affected by this I can’t imagine what they have gone through and are going through. I hope they can find some peace in knowing their rapists is behind bars and find strength in knowing their testimony helped put him there. I hope they know they are an inspiration,they do matter and have been not only been heard ,but believed.
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http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/12/11/cop-used-whiteness-as-his-weapon-to-rape-black-women.html?via=newsletter&source=DDMorning
Hopefully he will be picking up the soap sometime next year.
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He made all the noises, motions & facial expressions of crying, but there were no tears. None.
Pure sociopath.
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He was probably thinking about his future cell mate ‘Moose”.
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I read somewhere they sang happy birthday when the verdict was read.
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mstoogood4yall
Many of the women on LLAG brought up the fact that many black females are raped and do not report because they are not believed.
This is why stats on rape are skewed to me. Many black women don’t report and when they do they are then painted as liars. When you are raped by a white man in a position of power, who do you tell.
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@ mstoogood4yall
Well said.
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Welcome to Shawshank – Bitch !!
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@Kiwi
I agree. I heard he is marked as Asian on the court records and not white.
The thing is a lot of his “supports” brought up those type of stats and for me that is just bull.
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http://www.buzzfeed.com/jtes/daniel-holtzclaw-women-in-their-ow#.if156BymV
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^^A link to witness testimony. Reading the first witness made my stomach turn. These women lived a fear I have always had.
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What is interesting psychologically is that he seems to have seen himself as white. he constantly referred to his White private parts and asks the women whether this was their first time servicing a White man. Strangely, he seemed completely divorced from the idea of being half a minority himself.
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Their testimonies are similar, and then they had to see him patrolling their neighborhood after that and stalking them, one even moved.
I think since he is part Asian they don’t see him as white, and Idk what the outcome would’ve been if he was. I do know the white officer that beat a black woman on the side of the highway didn’t get charged, Rekia Boyd’s killer has not been fired, and many other officers that have killed or beaten black women have not been charged.
I feel like they encourage anti blackness but when a non white person does it they either support or throw them under the bus all while being absolved of it. They can support Zimmerman yet convict holtzclaw. I think they may feel a need to encourage non whites practicing anti blackness yet remind them they are not white and therefore are not completely untouchable. I think also having many victims and not being able to just explain it away helped to convict him.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
Comment deleted for use of racial slur.
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@King
I wonder if he claimed two races (being white anf Asian) or just white. Is it possible he was trying to take advantage of his supposed white privilege.
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^ Sharina,
It could be the other way around.
Perhaps white authorities feel less compelled to protect him, as, well, he is not fully white. There is no problem disowning him as he is not one of “them”.
Better to choose someone to take the fall who is not a full member of the club, just to keep the rest of the club intact. If his surname had been Daniel Harada or Honda or Hayakawa, he’d be thrown out in the street in no time. Claiming to be white would not have helped him at all.
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@mstoogood4yall
I think that is a big factor in this case. Very easy to throw him under the bus as opposed to “full” members of the white club.
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Him referring to himself as white when he was forcing himself on that woman struck me as odd. I’m finding it hard to believe that whites treated him as that, seeing how his “Asianess” cannot be hidden and in these one drop states of America of all places. Makes me wonder, does he see himself as white when among and or exercising authority over black people?
This gave me serious chills as I was reading the accounts of these women, I ended up getting a headache. There is something majorly fncked in that guy’s head, telling a woman that you just sexually assaulted that she shouldn’t walk alone because something might happen to her…. Like how friggin delusional can you be, touching yourself to a woman who made it clear that she’s scared and doesn’t even want to be around you and you even try to push things further. Holy hell!. That “man” is a steaming pile of yuck.
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I found it strange that some of his biggest defenders and supporters so happen to be white women. I ran across a white female on facebook who had the nerve to say “these women were getting something out of it.” While not all of them are so bold, many had expressed a subconscious level of sympathy and empathy for him.
The idea of him being raped in jail came up in which many (white men especially) felt it was an inevitable end and he had it coming. These white women would then scream “we should not wish rape on him.”
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“we should not wish rape on him.”
Too bad this same delusional twats can’t offer sympathy to the victims. On second thought who would need sympathy and empathy from these loons? These are the type of people who write to serial rapists and killers in prison proclaiming their unfailing love for them!
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He probably does see himself as white or mostly white, when he was preying on these women he did, like when he referred to his privates as white. The stereotypes of Asian men being little and white men being just right may have a bit to do with it.
I think biracial people identify with the dominant or “cool” race they are made up of. Biracial men that are black and white usually identify with being black and some biracial men that are Asian and white want to identify as white. When it comes to biracial children it seems the daughters are the prize while the sons are just whatever.
If the mother is of a “desirable” race her daughter will be seen as beautiful, whereas those same traits they praise the daughter for they will attack the son for. A biracial woman’s “tanned” skin and “exotic” features are seen as an “upgrade” while those same things are seen as “feminine” on biracial men.
While the biracial women may be more accepted by both sides, biracial men may not be. Boys want to be like their fathers and since ppl say race is determined by the father, biracial men may identify more as being whatever race their dad is, since it is his y chromosome they will be passing down.
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@ Sharina
Maybe white women love supporting rapists of black women, or maybe they want to marry him, oh wait he’s not a high profile serial killer, nvm they probably just want to be pen pals.
The same way white men assume black men want to rape white women maybe white women assume black women deserve it or worked jezebel magic on the rapist.
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TI don’t in any way want to defend these white women on Facebook who are blaming the victims. And there’s part of me that thinks Holtzclaw has it coming, too.
But overall, I feel the prevalence of rape in prison, the fact that the authorities turn the other way or even laughingly encourage it, is unjust and wrong.
Every time another black man is exonerated by the Innocence Project after having spent decades in prison, the first thing I think is, “Good lord, how many times has he been raped, and completely innocent.”
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Solitaire
I don’t agree with rape either, but at the same time him being raped is a bit of poetic justice. I think he should feel and be treated the same as these women did.
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Oh, yes. Like I said, part of me thinks he has it coming because of the nature of his crimes. He should have to suffer what he inflicted.
Being that he’s a former police officer, though, I wonder if they’ll take special measures to protect him from the general population 😦
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@ Solitaire
Actually it’s incorrect to suppose that everyone who is in prison gets raped. That is not so. Also the kind of forced rape that was more prevalent decades ago is less a factor. Today in prison rape is more about manipulation and grooming. The trading of favors and special treatment to to create a “debt” that must be paid off.
And as I said, people are selected to be targets it’s not that everybody who walks through the prison gates is going to get raped. Ex-policemen are less likely to be touched because they will be kept separate from general population as a matter of course. Holtzclaw is more in danger of prisoner execution as there will be a hit order out on him. Even prison guards can be bribed to look the other way, or ‘accidentally’ leave a cell door unlocked. He will be isolated and aways in fear of his life for the rest of his life.
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^always’ not ‘aways’
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It really depends on the state. Some areas you have to make a formal plea for high security protection. Some just puts you in it until you are less high profile. Some just throw you in general pop, but do their best to cover your identity.
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Maybe that’s why he was crying he knows what awaits him in prison. It’s already been discussed up thread about Holtzclaw and him identifying as white, I wondered about this myself. I wonder is he a sociopath? Why would he target these poor women to act out his need for sexual gratification? Something in him is broken, I wonder did he have a girlfriend?
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I’ll have to check, but I’m pretty sure a state like Oklahoma will separate the ex-cop. But like I said. It just makes him a more valuable target in system that RUNS on corruption and bribes. As you say, they do need to keep him safe for a while (so as to avoid embarrassment or charges of systemic incompetence) but after a time, he may become fair game. Even his cell mate may just get tired of him.
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/child-rapist-ex-cop-killed-cellmate-prison-continually-talking-raping-9-yo-girl/
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His lawyer will use the women’s not so squeaky clean past against them and yes Oklahoma is very racist. I am sure Holtzclaw and his lawyer were counting on this the racist all white jurors having no empathy for the black female victims with their criminal past.
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@ King
“Actually it’s incorrect to suppose that everyone who is in prison gets raped. That is not so. Also the kind of forced rape that was more prevalent decades ago is less a factor.”
True, and when I read about these cases, I always hope they were not raped. But concerning the Innocence Project, it seems like many of these men were incarcerated as teenagers back in the bad old days–20, 30, 40 years ago. I hope none of them were raped in prison, but I think the odds are such that at least some of them were.
“Today in prison rape is more about manipulation and grooming. The trading of favors and special treatment to to create a “debt” that must be paid off.”
And that’s still rape. It’s actually not all that different from what Holtzclaw was doing when he promised favors like reduced bail. Rape is rape.
“And as I said, people are selected to be targets it’s not that everybody who walks through the prison gates is going to get raped.”
I have a confession to make that perhaps will help explain my feelings about this. A few years ago, I gave a victim’s impact statement at the sentencing of a young white man who had burglarized our property. Both the prosecuting attorney and the victim’s advocate believed my statement led the judge to hand down a heavier sentence than he would otherwise have done.
I looked up this young man on the internet, and it was clear from his social media that he identified as gay. That actually makes me even more worried that he will be selected as a target, both for rape and homophobic assault.
It was also evident from his prior criminal record that he was addicted to meth. In my statement, I asked the judge to include substance abuse treatment in the sentence, which he did–and again I was told this probably wouldn’t have happened without me. So at least I can feel somewhat ok about that. But I still worry whether I did the right thing or if this young man is just going to be traumatized and abused.
I realize he is responsible for his actions and it is solely up to him whether to turn his life around. Yet it still haunts me.
No one should be selected and targeted. Rape is a crime and it shouldn’t be permitted inside prison walls anymore than outside.
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@Mary Burrell
That is exactly what they were counting on.
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@ Solitaire
No, rape cannot occur when there is consent. I would say that it is more a case of pressure and sexual manipulation.
A man may wear down some woman by constantly asking for sex again and again, and even lending her money, or paying a few of her bills in hopes of getting it. Now at some point the woman may give in to the pressure to say yes, BUT the fact that she says “YES” means that it was not rape, but rather coercion.
I’m not saying that the lines don’t get blurred and that, and in both cases, what happens is wrong. But still, people do have choices. Sometimes those choices are hard, but that doesn’t mean that they don’t exist.
In the case of your burglar, he would have had choices too. He might be able to be kept separate from the GP. He might choose to trade in sex for favors or money. He might turn over a new leaf. Who knows? Your job was to tell the truth, not to flavor the truth based on your own perceptions of the possible results for his actions. Sometimes people need to hit rock bottom before they will wake up. And sometimes falling 10 feet can save you from falling 100 feet later on.
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@Sharinalr: I personally was surprised they favored the women. I just knew this beast would walk free.
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@ King
I disagree. When one person holds power over another and uses that power to threaten and coerce, there is no such thing as consent.
Yes, an individual can choose to comply or choose to resist, but either way something detrimental happens to them that they don’t wish to happen.
And I’m purposely not framing this as a male/female issue. It’s true in all permutations.
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@ King
“Today in prison rape is more about manipulation and grooming.”
So first you call it rape and now you’re backing off from that statement?
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What I see in Daniel Holtzclaw is a variation of the Elliot Rodger syndrome of a deranged mixed race Eurasian man who wishes to attain whiteness through measures of violence. Holtzclaw wanted to believe that he was really white. Yet, most probably, people constantly reminded him that he wasn’t white his whole life. More than likely, many people reminded him that was “Asian” every chance they could. The stereotypes of Asian men in America are mercilessly dehumanizing. Asian men have been stereotyped as weak, feminine, uncool and sexually undesirable by women of all races. Many sons of WMAF relationships have an Oedipus complex because they realize their own Asian mothers explicitly preferred white men, yet most of the time, these sons grow up to have very noticeable Asian features. Because of the legacy of the one drop rule, which whites also apply to Asians, Holtzclaw was an Asian man because he was visibly not 100% caucasian. We can see this in the police reports describing his ethnicity. There is no such thing as mixed race to millions of white people in America. Holtzclaw felt he was claiming his deserved precious whiteness by violating black women (he described his penis as white). The same way Elliot Rodger tried to claim his whiteness and apartness from being Asian by murdering his Asian roommates.
There are a lot of Eurasian male nuts out there because their parents’ relationships are often based off of racial stereotypes and white supremacy. White men often like Asian women because Asian people, as a whole, are stereotyped as being more submissive and feminine in the eyes of white supremacy. This is the reason why you rarely see Asian men dating white women or non-Asian women, period. Many Asian women are self-hating and really think white people are superior. Even though white men like Asian women just for being Asian and Asian women like white men just being white, white privilege is the currency here and the inadequacy of Asian men is always implied. Many WMAF couples want to believe that their children are white even though they will most likely clearly look non-white according to the one-drop rule. Too many WMAF couples imply that being an Asian male is a bad thing and do horrible mental damage to them by telling their sons that they are white from a young age. But WMAF sons often go through hell being bullied living in predominantly white areas and going to predominantly white schools because their white peers view them as Asian males and all of the stereotypes that go with that. After all, nearly 50% of Asian boys are bullied in America. Eurasian men are often constantly rejected by women of all races because Asian men are seen as the most undesirable men in America because of constant media bashing and unflattering stereotypes without enough cool or manly positive stereotypes to counterbalance. Not only that but Eurasian men are also often outcasts in Asian American circles because most Asians do not embrace the American one-drop rule seeing as many Asian countries are the most ethnically homogenous places on earth. Asian men often look at Eurasian men as a living symbol of their own emasculation. It takes the rejection of tons of constant negative social conditioning in terms of race to maintain sanity as a Eurasian man in America.
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@ Solitaire, I suppose I should have put rape within inverted commas.
I think that there is rape, and there is coercion. The two are very close and are much related. One is defined my non-consensual sex forced upon another person. The other is based on pressuring a person to give their consent.
Now if someone is pointing a gun at you, or has a knife at your neck, then I would consider that to be rape. There are probably other scenarios that I could think of as well. But in some cases, a person can give consent out of a sense of obligation, or because they want a quid pro quo.
My point is that the presence of pressure does not always eliminate the possibility of agency of the pressured. But as I said above, I think the lines do blur between the two. At some point pressure becomes duress or even threat or ultimatum. So I wouldn’t say that rape NEVER happens in prison, only that the overt violent rape that we have heard so much of from past decades has become less prevalent, and manipulation and sexual quid pro quo (protection for sex) has become more prevalent.
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The difference that I’m pointing out, I think is that if an executive is sleeping with their assistant. It is certainly considered unethical, because of the power imbalance and the implications of duress as a result of that imbalance in favor of the executive. The executive may be disciplined or even fired.
However, the executive would not be immediately arrested for RAPE because they held the power over their assistant to threaten or coerce them. Neither would we assume that it was impossible for the assistant to give consent to the relationship.
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So under your definition, the second woman in the article who performed sexual acts with Holtzclaw because otherwise he would put her in jail for outstanding tickets: do you consider that consensual?
I forgot that I also wanted to address this:
“Your job was to tell the truth, not to flavor the truth based on your own perceptions of the possible results for his actions.”
While I did tell the truth, it is inaccurate to characterize it as my job because I was under no compulsion to appear before the court. A victim’s impact statement is a right, not an obligation. He pled guilty to several counts of burglary. I was the only victim who entered a statement, written or oral.
I didn’t have to be there. I chose to exercise my right. The main reason I did so is I wanted to ask that his sentence include mandatory substance abuse treatment, because I don’t believe he has any chance to reform as long as he’s an addict.
But the other reason I went is I wanted him to hear that among the many irreplaceable objects of sentimental value that he destroyed when he ransacked our belongings were things given to my partner from the LGBTQ student groups he has advised and supported over the years. So there was a vindictive element to my decision.
My choice to show up in court that day had an impact on that young man’s future, and I didn’t have to be there. I could have stayed home like all the others.
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No, because once a weapon is involved, I think you have crossed the line to rape. And peace officers carry sidearms and are given the authority to use them. If an officer asks for sex while clearly wearing a gun at his side, I would treat it no differently than if a regular citizen asked for sex while a gun was clearly in his possession.
Of course only you know your own mind, but it doesn’t sound vindictive to me. Why should he not know how much his crimes had effected his victims? You were simply showing him that his crimes do not happen in a vacuum and that he is hurting real people. I think too often people are not made to face that reality.
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King said,
“I wouldn’t say that rape NEVER happens in prison, only that the overt violent rape that we have heard so much of from past decades has become less prevalent, and manipulation and sexual quid pro quo (protection for sex) has become more prevalent.”
and this,
“However, the executive would not be immediately arrested for RAPE because they held the power over their assistant to threaten or coerce them.”
I don’t think that’s an apple to apple comparison. Sometimes females make sexual advances in the work place to move up the corporate ladder. Sometimes relationships in the work place are consensual and valid even if their is a power dynamic in place. And sometimes men (or women) use their position of power to get sex and if its through coercion then its rape.
Regardless consent means the ability to say no.
Thomas Jefferson thought he was having consensual sex with some of his favored Black women but they really couldn’t say no to him.
That is what makes it rape.
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Michael, I can continue the discussion but I’m getting the feeling that Abagond will consider the “consent discussion” to be a bit or a rabbit hole if it takes center stage for too long.
But can you please expound a little more about your statement here?
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It sounds to me like you are saying that is CAN be consensual
But if it’ NOT consensual then it’s rape.
Is that it in a nutshell?
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It comes down to mutual consent without threats of retaliation, protection or advancement.
If your in prison and “protection” comes with a price i wouldn’t call that consensual.
So while coercion isn’t agression, if one person holds all the power, the default isn’t mutual consent, but a brokered “contract” where the weaker party “agrees” to terms they wouldn’t normally consent to and that creates a situation where there is no free choice amongst individuals.
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@ michaeljonbarker
My argument is that they simply call sexual coercion and sexual aggression are called different things. I think this is because coercion can come in such a wide variety of forms:
Have sex with me or…
– I’ll cancel that pay rase that I just gave you
– I’ll tell your husband about the other affair that you are having
– I’ll stop helping you pay the your rent
– I’ll stand up in your church, and ‘confess’ that we are having an affair
All of these involve sexual coercion. Do you think that they would all be rape if the person being coerced gave in to the demand? And is that different then saying,
“You can do this the easy way or the hard way, but you are not getting out of this room alive until you have sex with me?”
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I am watching Melissa Harris-Perry and the panel is discussing Daniel Holtzclaw and the question asked during the discourse was were was mainstream media? Thirteen women by a police officer and not one mainstream affiliate covered the story only black centrist media like Roland Martin one News One was the only one to cover this story. Where was the so called feminist groups? Where was Gloria Allred? I guess there was no big payoff. They talked about Donald Trump and his hatred of Muslims nonstop. And the Paris tragedy nonstop. The point made was were was the outrage for these victims perpetrated by the beast Holtzclaw? Black women are the most unprotected in society.
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@King.
I’m making a moral argument against rape.
Anybody who interfers with the will of another for sexual gratification is committing rape.
You are talking about the legal definitions of rape and how they fall between coercion and force.
I don’t think we disagree.
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@ michaeljonbarker
Perhaps…
It’s just that to my thinking, men and women both pressure each other all the time to have sex. Sometimes, the set-up is quite elaborate. The more desperate the person is, the more bluntly the pressure may be applied. But there is still some CHOICE in the matter.
And THEN it crosses the line where you are no longer allowing any choice, and THAT is rape, or sexual assault. I’m just saying that the definition is not based on the addition of pressure to the equation, but rather by the subtraction of choice from it.
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@ Kiwi
I believe Holtzclaw wanted to do anything to prove to himself that he was white when he knew that many to most people did not view him that way. Being an Asian American male is hard because you will be treated as ugly, short, socially inept and small even when you are not any one of those things. I have heard short white men call Asian men who are over 6′ tall and nearly 200 pounds “small” and “little”. It doesn’t make any sense. It looks like Holtzclaw was a roid head judging by his unnatural looking disproportionate muscular physique. It is not uncommon for young Asian American men to be gym rats and steroid junkies because they are trying to overcompensate for the fact they are perceived to be smaller and weaker than white and black men simply for being Asian.
What is sick about many WMAF relationships is that they are not only anti-Asian man, but they are often also anti-black as well. Many white men who pursue Asian women do so because they are disgusted that white women are sleeping with black men en masse in many parts of the country. It is not uncommon for white men to believe that white women who have slept with black men are damaged goods. Holtzclaw probably picked up his disdain for black people from his own family who probably told him blacks were inferior from a very young age.
It is not uncommon for both the mother and father in WMAF relationships to be openly prejudiced against Asian men in being “not real men” and black people in being an embodiment of all negative stereotypes. The racist dynamics of many WMAF relationships wreak havoc on their male sons psyches.
Not all WMAF relationships are evil though. I think a large percentage of WMAF relationships are two quiet nerdy people who met in a college library. However, the formerly mentioned nutjob white supremacist MRA’s marrying self-hating Asian women and rich white men marrying Asian golddiggers (i.e. Elliot Rodger’s parents) is problematic.
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@FearofAMixedPlanet
… …
You hit all the nails on the head.
I think you are the only commenter who gets what is going on (except for Kiwi to a partial extent).
Most black and white commenters see black-white race relations in only black and white terms. They do not “get” how 3rd race people affect black-white relations. But I do see what happened to Elliot Rodger and Daniel Holtzclaw to be variations of the same theme.
For one thing, NEITHER of them are white, despite what some may think. They wished they could be white, and seeing their white Dad and their white name, they probably feel they should be entitled to enjoy some privilege due to whiteness, but at every turn they are reminded they are not. And what they are reminded of is something that society and both their parents overtly or unconsciously denigrated their whole entire lives. There is a very terrible psychological burden borne by Eurasian men in the USA that might be a blind spot, esp. to blacks. Certainly those with white Dads have it worse than the other way around, but even it is not absent there either.
As you said, most Asian groups (except, maybe for Filipinos), see themselves as racially homogenous, and apply a reverse one drop rule to Eurasians, Blasians or other Hapa groups. They can never really be accepted as Asian either. This is a partial explanation why the Hapa and other multiracial activist movements expanded since the 1990s — to give them an alternative form of self-expression and identity that is not so dehumanizing. I doubt there is much Hapa support in Oklahoma where Holtzclaw grew up.
Eurasian male identity issues are very much related to racism in the USA and in certain respects, could be viewed as something even more dehumanizing than what black men have to live with. Black men may face society denigrating them for their race, but probably not too many have to live in a home where both parents do it as well, nor in a society where others labelled the same racially also do not accept them. (ie, Asians generally do not accept Eurasians as fellow Asians, but blacks do accept black men as fellow blacks). The only thing that might come close is where a black man was raised by a white family who was very racist towards blacks. Imagine the degree of internalized racial self-hatred in that case.
(I think it was different pre-1960s, when Asian male / non-Asian female formed the majority of mixed Asian relationships and families. Then, kinship was stronger than race, and their Dads were unlikely to denigrate their kids for their racial background. But post 1970s, with AF/WM predominating, we have increasing numbers of Eurasian men with both parents bashing Asian men and society not accepting them as white.)
Most blacks might not even give a second thought to the torturous dehumanization that some Eurasian men have to deal with growing up. But maybe they need to start being aware of it. Because it should be obvious that it will also affect blacks and not always in the best way. Holtzclaw took advantage of black women to help him feel that he has some power of whiteness that white people do not give him. I read the article 2 years ago of the black boy beat to death by 3 older teenage boys in Florida, one of whice was Eurasian. (the link was in a post here somewhere, but I have to look for it). If blacks choose to ignore or discount the turmoil that Eurasian men grow up with (or erroneously label it as something “white”), it may be at their own peril. We will continue to see more of these incidents in the future as long as society continues to bash the Asian male.
I saw my own brother try to fight bullying from both the white and black kids by joining gangs of white youth who would have my brother going to places where blacks congregate and have him do the terrorizing and harassing. It is a way of dealing with the inadequacy of not being accepted as white. He still is carrying this “shtick”.
That is why, once I saw it was an all white jury, esp. male jury deciding the verdict, Holtzclaw was a goner. Whites will throw a mixed race man under the bus in a split second. It is interesting to see so many blacks think that he had any chance of escaping a guilty verdict due to a white jury. If anything, that made it worse for him.
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Kiwi,
I am not in the USA and have not been following this case that closely – thank you for your information about his supporters.
However, can we be sure that more white women support him because they find him physically attractive (vs. a less mixed Asian male who would be presumably less attractive), or because he targeted black women instead of white women? Anyhow, we can agree that white men have no sympathy for him.
I still think that Eurasian men have a greater chance of getting all psychologically screwed up than an Asian male with 2 Asian parents, esp. those Eurasian men with white fathers. Both would receive the negative images of Asian men from general society and from Asian women, but the Asian male with two Asian parents will get less of it directly from their own parents (otherwise, his mom would have to explain why he married his Dad and not a white man) or other relatives. Also, the Asian male with two Asian parents *usually* can tap into greater support from Asian American communities, or other Asian males who can empathize with their plight. The Eurasian male will encounter a lot more rebuffing from those communities and support networks who will not perceive him as authentically Asian. The Eurasian male may also experience more frustration over the denial of white privilege, as he feels he should be able to escape most of the Asian male bashing and dehumanization lashed out by US society as he has a white parent, but finds that he cannot.
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@ jefe
Most blacks might not even give a second thought to the torturous dehumanization that some Eurasian men have to deal with growing up. But maybe they need to start being aware of it.
I understand what you say, but in my case, even not being an American, I can empathize with the Eurasian man‘s plight and condition. I can feel their pain.
The racial dimension of this case has given first attention in most comments above. In many other websites is the opposite. Although the race of the offender cannot be excluded totally if we want to understand fully is mental world and motivations, we cannot forget that certainly:
* in the general population and also inside each racial/ethnic group only a small minority of men practice rape; rape is the exception, not the rule; we cannot go so far as to see Eurasian men as prone to practice rape, independently of problems they suffer during their upbringing;
* I’ve seen multiple times in this blog the idea that Asian men are seen as the least desirable in the USA society; but how true is this?; in my personal experience the idea that Asian men (from East Asia) are less than other races of men is totally strange; I’ve not noticed that neither in Africa nor in Europe; so it must be some peculiarity of USA society;
* regarding mixing of races, even if Asian women have a edge over Asian men in their capacity to attract partners of other races I doubt that, for example, Black men attract more White women than Asian men; in my experience women in general choose men based primarily on their socioeconomic status more than physical appearance; I would like to look at statistics of the USA to extract more definitive conclusions in this matter;
* anyway, if there is a significant number of Asian and Eurasian men in danger of remain bachelors for life because of the bashing of their manhood by the society at large, why do they not consider more seriously to go after Black women who apparently feel the same; why not join their causes?; or is it that they are anti-Black racists themselves and that option would not be acceptable?; I remember, many years ago, looking at a magazine where they reported a situation in Korea (South) where a popular movement went to the streets to protest a cultural habit of many families which want preferably boys than girls in their offspring and sometimes went so far as to abort female fetuses; during the demonstration one could see banners that stated something like “In promoting a declining women population here, do you want your boys to have to marry an Black African ape (woman)?”; this was in Korea, but what about the feelings of Asian American men; don’t you think that you have a surplus of Black American women that you could consider to choose as a partner for life?; probably your interest would likely be reciprocated…
We are all satisfied that in this case justice seems to have been served (the case is not closed yet… only next January).
But having seen all those cases of police killing civilians in the past two years or so, I have mixed feelings.
In this case as well in the case of Ben Fields (https://abagond.wordpress.com/2015/10/28/assault-at-spring-valley-high/) justice had operated quite swiftly. But the much more serious cases of killing of Black civilians had not merited the same treatment. The authorities have been trying their utmost to absolve the involved police officers (=killers).
So, at best, this victory is sweet-salty!
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To exclude misinterpretations in my last comment:
Where you read:
I doubt that, for example, Black men attract more White women than Asian men
it means (more clear!)
I doubt that, for example, Black men attract more White women than Asian men attract White women
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^ We don’t know how these external findings may correlate to the the Holtzclaw case, One may choose to speculate that “racial mixture” is a factor, although there are plenty of unattractive Eurasian males out there.
Any similar finding with biracial black males and those that are more monoracial?
How about any study about how Asian women perceive white men v. Eurasian men? Are Eurasians still too Asian for them?
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@munubantu,
Thanks for your thoughtful reply.
of course we cannot. 99% will never rape anyone. That is not the point. The point is that Eurasian men in the USA will be exposed to certain social and psychological conditioning that will cause some to seek more antisocial means to resolve their psychosocial imbalances.
Two points:
– By “Asian” we do not mean from East Asia, but of Asian descent. There is no other adequate term in the USA to describe people of Asian descent other than “Asian” (unlike terms “Black” and “White”).
– As Kiwi, pointed out to you, even in regions of the USA where Asian men exceed black men in both numbers and income, white women still date and marry black men to a much higher degree. Strange as it may seem to you, it is the case in the USA.
Despite what you may doubt, it is indeed the true situation in the USA. Any cursory set of statistics should verify that. It shows that race plays a greater role than socioeconomic status.
Anyhow,
As Kiwi noted, you seemed to be focusing on the issue of whether or not Eurasian men can find marriage partners, which is not at all the subject of the discussion. Undoubtedly, Daniel Holtzclaw should have not had any problem with that. The point is the incessant dehumanization and emasculation of Asian men in US society by the media and institutions. This will have a disproportional deleterious effect on Eurasian men (particularly with white fathers) and possibly also Asian males adopted into white families, both of which severely lack psychological and social support to the affected male. Asian males raised in families with 2 Asian parents will have some better access to a support system (eg,in the home), but they will still not be immune to the unrelenting Asian male bashing that goes on in the general USA society.
So, I am not the least bit surprised that individuals like Daniel Holtzclaw and Elliot Rodger will snap. Sure, 99% will seek or find enough social support to avoid that kind of crack up, but we can expect more Eurasians “going postal” to a rate exceeding their numbers in the population.
I am also not surprised that white men (again, talking about the USA) will disassociate themselves with mixed race men, even those with white fathers, when it suits them. In this respect, white men will do this also to biracial black men with white fathers. They are not “one of us” to them.
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You have go deeper in a link within the linked article to find:
The researcher seems to be speculating more than offering any hard evidence, but he apparently sees Eurasian as a compromise to Asian women –> they are perceived to be more “Americanized” and “gender progressive” than Asian men, yet still share enough cultural heritage to be better accepted by family members.
However, it would be disturbing if the speculation on this perception is based directly on race as a proxy for degree of Americanization or shared cultural heritage.
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@ Kiwi
I don’t necessarily believe that Asian women prefer Eurasian men over full-blooded Asian men. The majority of Asian American women marry Asian men. The rest mostly marry white men. Eurasian men are pretty much statistically insignificant. I don’t believe that the average Asian woman would pick a Eurasian over a white man. It’s sort of like how many black men who are colorstruck would ultimately choose a white woman over a light skinned black woman. But I think it’s much more extreme in the case of Asian women’s preferences where they explicitly prefer white men. I have never even seen a Eurasian looking guy with an Asian woman. I think Asian women who date out more likely to date black men than Eurasian men. Eurasian men are often treated like mules in American society in terms of dating unless they are very much above average in looks, income and personality. The Eurasian guys I know who have white girlfriends are all very tall, muscular, educated and successful.
Also, it seems that Eurasian men often do not even like Asian women at all. Infamously in the case of Elliot Rodger, he lusted after blonde white women. Many Eurasian men literally live for the validation of white women. And this is not limited to Elliot Rodger. Go to the subreddit r/hapas and read dozens of testimonials from Eurasian men in America with the same exact psychological issues pertaining to race. I think this is because of the white supremacist undertones of many WMAF relationships.
Many Asian women who date and marry white men are literally cheerleaders for white supremacy. They are the types of Asian women who dye their hair blonde and get eyelid surgery, vote Republican every election, watch Fox News and say things like white men are the most oppressed group in America. And as I said before, many WMAF couples actually tell their kids that they are white and want to believe their children are white.
Unless these boys can pass as 100% white, 100% of the time, they will eventually experience relentless microagressions and outright prejudice that will wear away at their self-esteem over time. Many Eurasian sons grow up believing they are white because that’s what their parents told them until they begin to experience consistent racism sometime during their childhood, mostly during adolescence. During their teen years, many Eurasian men who have distinguishable Asian features learn that they have a markedly much lower social value, particularly sexual value, compared to their average to even downright ugly white, black and Latino male peers.
Even though many Eurasian men maybe very attractive, simply being half-Asian/half-white equates to being Asian to many people in America and that is seen as undesirable in itself. Other Eurasians who may be seen as attractive often have very low self-esteem and never pursue women because they have internalized the belief that Asian and Eurasian men are universally unwanted because of the very real emasculation of Asian men in America. Ironically, when Elliot Rodger’s pity party videos went viral, they were full of comments from white women saying he was cute and they would have dated him.
But the main problem with WMAF relationships is that the most socially acceptable interracial relationship in mainstream America is unsurprisingly blatantly based in white supremacy. How do I know all of this? I am half-white/half-Asian man and my white father told me that “you could barely tell” I looked Asian before he died ten years ago. This negates the fact I was bullied by white kids in high school because I was Asian to them and I was the only other remotely Asian kid in the whole school. Also, literally dozens of people have made a conscious effort to remind me I’m “Asian” since my father died. And my own father told that me that you “could barely tell” I was Asian as if it was a bad thing. My Asian mother told me to check off “white” on government forms when applying for jobs. My own parents do not and could never understand my plight. Both white men and Asian women have higher overall social value than Asian men in American society. Although I am racially ambiguous and can pass as many other ethnicities, people give me the most grief for being “Asian”.
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I’ve read Black women described as being the most masculine women of all races.
I’ve read about Asian men as being the most feminine/passive men of all races.
If rape is really more about power/domination and less about sex/desirabilty then I have no idea of what the guy was going through.
Growing up, I had a lot of Asian guys in my classes but most of them weren’t my friends. I knew a few Asian dudes from these classes who were good in sports and who could fight and who had game and these were the Asian guys I kept as friends to this day. These guys married Black, white and Hispanic women. Only one married an Asian woman.
As for Asian women. I ‘knew’ lots of them. I’m still friends with most of them and their parents and new families as well. As I check my fb page – they ALL married white guys. (I never noticed till now.) Their husbands are cool to hang out with but I never noticed that they are ALL white.
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@Kiwi,
You sound really out of touch with what Eurasian men actually experience. Those are not imaginary people but they are not real supporters.
But more often than not, their sons are treated like POC by everyone else.
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I am not at all dismissing your argument. In fact, all along I acknowledge all the data and studies that you are pulling up.
The only thing I cannot concur with is the conclusions that you arrive to yourself by trying to extrapolate this to fit your biases. At that point it starts to look like the people who use crime statistics to prove to blacks how violent blacks are.
Even the study that you linked to showed the researcher doing a lot of speculation. It is clear that he does not have any real explanation for some of the findings he found beyond rationalizations that he postulates. But of course, that warrants further, more robust study.
One thing is sure – white women expressing how attractive a Eurasian looks to them in no way means that are real supporters. They are the same ones who ask why someone would kill themselves.
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@Kiwi @Jefe
Would it be possible to clarify what you are disagreeing on?
From what I understand, Kiwi is stating that Eurasian men are given some degree of white privilege (or preference) by white and asian females.
The white female supporters Holtzclaw has accumulated would point to that.
I agree with Kiwi on this one.
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@ Kiwi
On the 1990 US census, most White male/Asian female families identified their children as White, not Asian. That right there by itself is enough to tell me that most White male/Asian female couples are people of color’s enemies, not allies.
With due respect Kiwi, I disagree.
Mothers are governed by the instinct of protecting their offspring. This is basic.
What I see here is that those Asian American females (involved with White partners) realize that in order to have a better chance in life it’s better that their children self-identify as White. Less than a support of racism this attitude reveals a concern for the well-being of the children.
Fact of the matter is that most people, living in a society, do not defy the current order of that society. This is true in most societies (except the ones already in an advanced process of decomposition or on the verge of a revolution). They learn the rules, explicit or implicit, that govern such society and try to adapt themselves to them, as well as they can. Seldom they question those rules.
This is true for Americans today certainly, as it was true in Mozambique when it was a Portuguese colony or Russia before the Bolshevik revolution.
I remember reading in a book some telling discussions between Russian revolutionary leaders before the Bolshevik revolution. In one moment Lenin himself was answering a comrade who questioned the need of the ideological campaigns to win the proletariat and he was saying that without the spreading of the “ideology of the proletariat” in the masses they would remain helpless victims of the “bourgeois ideology”, that is, they would tend to see the world basically as they were told by the society until then.
A blog like this one serves, in my modest opinion, at least a similar purpose for the American society of today regarding the specific way it deals with the race question. You come here and you learn to deconstruct the mental image you had until then about the way races relate in America, and in doing so, you are exposed to proposals of a “hopefully” better society.
If you doubt what I’m saying, ask yourself, honestly, if after you came here, had you not underwent many changes in perception about many race related issues.
The typical Asian American woman went not through a similar process of enlightenment. Therefore it’s not strange to expect of her to want her children treated as White individuals in a society were White is right.
You must be patient and understand that maybe your role in society could be to help other people change for the better in that specif domain of human relationships.
Therefore, I don’t see those people engaged in White male/ Asian-American female as enemies.
At worst, they cannot be helpful and should be pushed aside. At best, they can be conquered and transformed in agents of change.
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http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/David-Abbott-Police-Officer-Kills-Self-Moments-Before-He-Was-Charged-with-Soliciting-Teens-362452411.html
The fox guarding the henhouse, another police sex offender.
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@somaliprince
I am trying to figure that out too.
But what both are you confusing me on is how each of you use “supporters”. Do you mean an online fan base? Or are group of people out there protesting about the verdicts and demanding that they be overturned? Or demanding that the police do more to protect their own?
I don’t consider an online fan base to be genuine supporters. I don’t think they are imaginary people, but they are not what I would term “supporters”.
Also, the reason why many of his fan base may be white women could simply be attributed to the fact that he is a man (therefore, attracts women) and he is in Oklahoma (where most women are white). We cannot conclude that it is specifically due to his being Eurasian with a white father.
Regarding what you say you agree with Kiwi on:
I agree that this is what Kiwi appears to be stating.
I don’t agree that it is “proven” by any link he provided. The study he quoted could not “prove” any reason why their survey produced the results it did, although they did speculate on some of the potential hypothetical reasons. They could not go beyond that because the survey did not cover any of the reasons behind the racial preferences. I agree that those reasons are worthy of further study.
Also, the study he quoted did not examine the viewpoints of Eurasians, but, of monoracially identified whites, Asians and blacks who might view the Eurasian as a potential dating partner, NOT the viewpoint of what a Eurasian may experience him/herself.
I don’t think we can say that at all due to the reasons explained above. The best we can do is state that that belief does not directly conflict the hypothetical speculations from the study he linked. There could be a hundred different other explanations.
Another thing we should not do – discount anecdotal experience. Kiwi has repeatedly discounted the anecdotal evidence supplied by over half a dozen Eurasians on this blog, pointing to something that he read that supports his argument, some of which is simply hypothetical speculative conclusion from a study or some random data that has not been analyzed. I was very active on some other Eurasian / Hapa forums for a while (even much more active than I am on Abagond’s) and even moderated a spinoff forum for a while. I had direct dialogue with hundreds, if not thousands of people on these and other topics – many more than are found in any of those studies that Kiwi quotes. Sure, the evidence is anecdotal, but should not be discounted. At minimum, I learned that what I experienced is actually common and not something imaginary (Whites, blacks, Asians always told me I imagined things.)
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@munubantu
Thanks for pointing out that what someone marks on a census form is hardly “proof” of anything, although I think you may also be speculating on the reasons why some phenomenon may occur. It is OK to do that – it simply means that we should examine it further.
Instead of labelling people as “enemies”, I think it is better to identify goals and objectives and seek ways to move in the desired direction.
For example,
Suppose that the goal were to end the incessant dehumanization and emasculation of the Asian male in US society. Then we would have to examine how to address the role played by AF/WM couples in meeting those objectives, instead of labeling them as enemies or allies, which definitely would not help.
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@Kiwi @Jefe
Reading your posts, it strikes me that Jefe is perhaps Eurasian-American and Kiwi is Asian-American.
It appears you are now engaging in a ‘who is most oppressed’ discussion.
Kiwi is implying that Eurasian-Americans are not allies. Jefe is implying that they are just as oppressed.
This is practically a mirror image of the discussion LoM and Linda had on the ‘The Irish had it hard too’ thread.
Basically trying to out-argue each other on which group is most deserving of the title ‘oppressed’.
Now I see it goes on within the Asian community.
It goes on all the time between blacks: Colorism.
‘You are light skin, you do not understand the oppression of the dark sin’.
It goes on between genders: ‘You are male, you do not understand the oppression of females’.
It goes on between African-Americans and Africans: ‘You African-Americans have it good in America, lots of Africans would jump at the opportunity to live in America’.
This is one of the flaws of identity politics.
Everyone just argues for the sake of their own identity and tries to undermine other identities.
I don’t think it leads to constructive discussions.
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@ somaliprince
Like you, I am relatively new here. But I have been lurking for awhile, and you just put into words something I have long thought privately.
Kiwi and jefe argue a lot, and what seems to underpin every single one of their arguments is what you have stated above.
It is always painful to watch.
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@SP
I am certainly not interested in that sort of discussion as I don’t even believe in it. There is a wide variety of types of oppression that people share, and other forms that that they don’t.
Agree, and I don’t want to continue it further, esp. if it devolves into slander or libel. I would rather focus on the essence of arguments themselves. I certainly have no need to defend any reputation here.
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“somaliprince,
This is practically a mirror image of the discussion LoM and Linda had on the ‘The Irish had it hard too’ thread.
Basically trying to out-argue each other on which group is most deserving of the title ‘oppressed’.”
Linda says
It’s unfortunate that you misunderstood the dynamics of what the issue was between LOM and myself.
My only intention was to show him up as the delusional dingbat that he is- why? because I could
LOM comes to this blog to disrupt and he is a troll that Abagond likes to have around. That’s why is in invested in trying to say the “Irish are like black people”
because he knows that by repeating this, he will get reactions and people will talk to him, no matter how negatively (attention wh’res don’t mind being kicked)
There is no contest of “oppression” to argue over because there is no comparison between Irish servants/slaves and African chattel slaves.
The Irish were oppressed by the British, that’s a fact
they were prisoners in their own country, Ireland, and as indentured servants/slaves, they were able to find freedom in the America’s once they fulfilled their short-term contracts.
The term “oppressed” doesn’t properly apply to African slaves, because they were never allowed to have self-determination at no point in their life
— they were dehumanized prisoners once they got off the ship, who were stripped of their humanity and turned into cattle that could be killed, branded, and sold at will.
I’m not interested in comparing apples to oranges of historical events that are not related or equal – each event stands Alone, so no, there is no “oppression contest” as far as I’m concerned.
It’s interesting though that you chose to use the word “oppressed” when discussing African slavery
Would you use the word “oppressed” to compare the lives of the abeds of Mauritania with Somalian refugees living in Saudi Arabia
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@Jefe
You, along with MJB, are probably the 2 people that stick most consistently to the purest form of debating, so I certainly wasn’t criticising that.
Kiwi accusing you of lying was somewhat uncalled for.
I am glad you didn’t respond to it.
Kiwi, I actually think a lot of the issues you address deal more with gender than with race.
You seem to be turning on Asian-American women more than any other group.
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@Linda
I understand your points.
I am only stating it that it is through sharing pain that bonds are forged, competing in the pain stakes only leads to disunity.
African-Americans and Africans divide themselves because of this very issue.
Black women and men separate themselves because of this very issue.
Light skin blacks and dark skin blacks separate themselves because of this very issue.
In the end, there is no unity.
And LoM isn’t a troll. He makes some silly points. We are free to debate him if we want to.
He’s a white religious person who believes in socialism.
Abagond’s stated aim is to have a multicultural society.
In such a society, it would be much more productive to have people like LoM than the usual right-wing supremacist Republican.
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@Kiwi
Honestly, stop accusing people of lying. It makes you sound juvenile.
From your writing, I can tell your age.
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“I am only stating it that it is through sharing pain that bonds are forged, competing in the pain stakes only leads to disunity.”
somaliprince,
since you’re new to this blog
I will leave you with your disillusions about who is here sincerely and who is a troll
I’ve been here long enough to do battle with Abagond’s white racists and resident trolls, such as LOM, who is just the newest one of many
I choose mostly not to engage anymore because they are annoying and have nothing of importance to say, like LOM
His only Agenda is to be seen and heard–if you get something out of his babblings, that’s great
I on the other hand, don’t like to entertain fools
What I am interested in though, is your answer my question to you.
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I have encountered more racism from Asians that I care to think of.
I am still skeptical about you and Abagond’s position that racism is something that can be defeated.
I am holding back and mulling it over.
My initial position was that racism has and always existed (even in Antiquity), that people associate other people’s race with their respective wealth accumulation and judge accordingly.
I believed that the racism I encountered from Asians was because they viewed Europeans as rich and Africans as poor.
I am now reconsidering that position after reading through some of Abagond’s articles.
I am still undecided.
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@Linda
Yes, you want me to engage in a narrow debate about the differences between oppression and slavery.
Some people have it worse, yes, but once you have made that point, what does it achieve?
I am far more interested in accumulating allies to rid Africa of the shackles of neo-colonialism than to compare people’s plights.
I would actually be more interested in LoM if he was a neo-colonial capitalist.
It would make for a good debate.
The fact that he’s a young left wing idealist bores me somewhat.
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somaliprince @Yes, you want me to engage in a narrow debate about the differences between oppression and slavery.
Linda says,
you shouldn’t assume what my motivations are — you don’t know me
I’m not interested in debating….I’m interested in your point of view
That’s why I asked you.
I’m interested in learning from people of different cultures and ethnic groups that is different from my own.
Since you are African, I’m interested in your points of view of the current Geo-political situations happening on the Continent.
one that happens to be affecting your own people currently
and another, that affects a totally different African ethnic group (who happens to share your countries Religion)
I am interested to hear your take on how the word “oppressed” is applied to 2 different Ethnic groups facing different political-social issues.
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@Kiwi
It is not the issue of lying I am addressing.
It is how it reflects on you when you make strong ad hominems.
If Jefe is making a unverified claim then the judges (we, the readers) will weigh that up accordingly.
I was actually rooting for you on this one, until you threw out the ad hominem and let me down.
Jefe might have made use of incorrect anecdotal evidence, but people never really take anecdotal evidence seriously anyway.
Even if you disproved his anecdotal evidence, it wouldn’t amount to much.
It is not because you shout out ‘liar’ that you have somehow magically won the argument.
That’s what I meant when I said it sounded juvenile.
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@SP,
If you recall, on the Hollywood whitewashing thread, I humbly asked about where we might find this plethora of white people on Mainland Chinese TV and films, as I had never seen that to a large extent. I never called anyone a liar and would gladly be willing to be enlightened. I only stated that my experience was different.
I went again to Mainland China for 2 days last week, and flipped through 50 channels for about 6 hours looking for white people. Only found one who was co-hosting a documentary with a Mainland Chinese. I actually saw more black people than white people on this quest.
Of course, that is anecdotal, but I am willing to learn more about it.
Alas, that was ignored.
Another assertion was made that China never does “whiteface”. I know that is untrue, but I never accused anyone of lying. I did share a link that discussed a brief history of whiteface in China. I know there is even more history of it, but I didn’t have time to do online web searches that anyone can do.
Alas, that was also ignored.
I completely avoided using any ad hominems in the whole discourse.
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@Kiwi
Come on Kiwi, let’s not reduce the tone of the thread entirely.
@Jefe
I did notice that. Something about stones and glasshouses comes to mind.
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@Kiwi
As a devilishly handsome man, I would disagree. I would elaborate but I do not want to go off-topic.
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@Linda
I have not heard of the abeds of Mauritania. Do you have the Arabic word? Maybe it is a bad translation.
I purposefully chose not to emigrate to Saudi Arabia. I have been there a few times for the حج (Hajj).
Racism in Saudi Arabia is as strong as in any other country. Somalians are not just oppressed, they are not wanted.
Last year, 12,000 Somalis were expelled. Black muslims are looked down upon in many Arab states, although I found Egypt to be more receptive.
Again, I do not want to go off-topic. I am building up a lot of information for my website, which will deal primarily with Africa.
Of course, you will be more than welcome to contribute once the website is up and running.
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” on Wed 16 Dec 2015 at 10:56:22
somaliprince
@Kiwi
It has more to do with Asians thinking Blacks are ugly.
As a devilishly handsome man, I would disagree. I would elaborate but I do not want to go off-topic.”
So would a couple of my male relatives who have procreated with Asian women. One of them didn’t even bother to marry his Korean girlfriend! To his credit, he does provide for the lad, being a rich doctor, he can easily afford it.
The problem with such ‘debates’ is that people take their personal biases and attribute them to all the members of the group they claim to represent.
Our ‘friend’ Kiwi should have said that he, his family and friends find Blacks repulsive instead of claiming that “It has more to do with Asians thinking Blacks are ugly.
I’m glad to see that I’m not the only one to come to the conclusion that Kiwi is hysterical, childish, and a liar.
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@Kiwi
:)~
Then I must confess. I am blonde. ROFL
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Gro Jo
Anything you say against kiwi is nothing more than the war cry of bitter betty. Not credibility.
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@Sp
Why focus on him saying haha when he made a pretty solid point afterwards? There is no issue with calling a person a liar if you can detail it and back it up.
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Jefe
“If you recall, on the Hollywood whitewashing thread, I humbly asked about where we might find this plethora of white people on Mainland Chinese TV and films, as I had never seen that to a large extent. I never called anyone a liar and would gladly be willing to be enlightened. I only stated that my experience was different.”——-I respect you as a commenter, but I find it odd you would be playing into the catty scene. This most certainly is not like you. You and kiwi arguing so is not like you. Sp is instigating a situation you guys usually work out on your own.
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@Sharina
I really don’t want to get into arguments with people here. I don’t enjoy it at all. Normally, I would just drop it, which is what I will do.
I know where this all got started.
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I have been following this blog for awhile and Jefe and Kiwi have debated on things from time to time. I haven’t always been able to grasp what it is exactly they are arguing about. So I get SP question. What it shows is my own lack of knowledge as well as awareness of certain issues that are not obvious to me. So I find the debates interesting but I can’t claim to grasp those issues in their entirety. I’m still stuck in the “perpetual forerner stereo type” even though I’m now aware that it exists within my thinking. It’s not easy to reprogram how I think.
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@Jefe
I meant no disrespect in what I said and I truly hope it did not come off that way. Just shocked.
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@Kiwi
“Where have I argued with “over half a dozen” Eurasians on this blog?”—Based solely on what I have seen, no where. I have seen you argue with gro jo, Randy, Church’s (and all his sock puppets), biff, some racist claiming to be Filipino, he who shall not be named, and random racist. None of which claimed to be Eurasian.
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@ gro jo
Three comments deleted. Please use the names that commenters use for themselves (or a shortened version thereof).
Thank you.
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I have a question. If white is beautiful in Asia is it because of the influence of white centrism in their culture or is something that is traditional going back hundreds of years ?
It seems odd to me that their racism would be based on “ugliness”. It would seem to me that it would be based on their limited knowledge of Black life in America. If your only impression of Blacks comes from shows that exaggerate Black violence and Americas obsession with Black crime then I could see how unfounded prejudices could develop in other countries.
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@Michael Jon Barker
Those are some good questions. I shared a link with Kiwi on open thread, to a site I enjoy that is ran by an Asian guy. His goal this coming year is to highlight and expose the anti-black attitudes of Asians. Many of the Asians on their are open and willing to answering many questions on this subject, so it gives you a bit of perspective from a wide range of Asian cultures. Not saying people like kiwi and Jefe are not valuable, but it is helpful to have a few different views as well.
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@ Kiwi @ Gro Jo
Deleted a comment for each of you for not using the proper form of a commenter’s name.
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@Kiwi
I was simply trying to maintain the level of the debate. Jefe is a good contributor and I enjoy reading his posts. I don’t think he was being deliberately dishonest.
Naturally, I don’t believe in double standards. I apologise for calling you juvenile.
@MJB
@Grojo
I honestly don’t believe that Asian racism is based on beauty, or lack of it.
I understand Kiwi’s point, but the way he said it was somewhat demeaning.
There are beautiful people of all races. In Guangzhou, many Asian men pay to sleep with Black women.
The thing is, they keep quiet about it.
I think humans are actually quite attracted to people of other races but societal pressures force them to choose otherwise.
I believe it has much more to do with status and wealth.
Asian women are not attracted to white men because they are better looking but because they usually have a lot of money and a better life in the West.
In fact, a lot of the white men who go hunting for brides in Asia are quite ugly.
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@Kiwi @Sharina
Here is Jefe’s quote
From what I understand, Jefe was referring to the fact that Eurasians have supplied anecdotal evidence to this blog that they too are disenfranchised by whites.
Surely, on a blog as visited as this one, it would not be difficult to find 6 or 7 Eurasians contributors that have encountered white racism?
When Kiwi states that Eurasians should not be trusted, is he not discounting that evidence?
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“Asian women are not attracted to white men because they are better looking but because they usually have a lot of money and a better life in the West.
In fact, a lot of the white men who go hunting for brides in Asia are quite ugly.”
This statement has the ring of truth to it. The sexiest Asian woman I ever saw was accompanied by an extremely plain white guy. Seeing her was like seeing a unicorn. Not only was she pretty, I was surprised that she had a very nice backside, atypical for a woman of her race.
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@ somaliprince
In the US at least, there are two different (but related) dynamics going on.
There are Asian women who marry white American men and come to the US. I’m not going to say all of these women do it for money and a better life, but that certainly is the predominant case. The white men also have suspect motives because many consider Asian women to be more submissive than others.
The second dynamic is Asian-American women marrying white American men. These Asian-American women aren’t trying to escape poverty in the Third World. Some of them come from richer families than their husbands.
The dynamic here may have more to do with the de-masculinization of Asian-American men in the media and the culture, as well as the glorification of everything white. And of course straight white men have the most privilege and power in the US, which is attractive.
This is not to say that all Asian-American women who marry white American men do so from a conscious desire to affiliate themselves with whiteness. But they have definitely been bombarded with images glorifying white men and denigrating Asian men since childhood.
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@Solitaire
I agree that there are two different dynamics.
Obviously, I have little experience of America and don’t really follow mainstream white media.
So I may have neglected the second dynamic.
You correctly pointed out that I was appoaching the issue from the first dynamic.
Thanks for clarifying it.
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@Sharina
I had a look at your link in the open thread. Frankly, it surprises me.
I always assumed that Asians and Blacks in America were quite united against White supermacy, since they have both suffered from it.
When I was referring to Asian racism, I was referring to racism I encountered in China.
I always put it down to the fact that the Chinese were simply uneducated about the fact that Africa has a rich cultural heritage.
I found that many Chinese, after meeting me, quickly changed their minds.
It is somewhat dismaying that Asian-Americans, who should know better, are adopting racist attitudes.
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@all
I was not being dishonest. When I typed the original sentence, I immediately thought of 4 names besides myself where anecdotal Eurasian experience was discounted (including one contributor above on this very thread), and I remember there were a few others which I could search for. So, yes, at least half a dozen (that is why that quantity was picked) and I was not lying, intentionally, deceitfully or otherwise.
Those other commenters were not here as frequently or for the long haul, so perhaps they did not spring to others’ minds. Or maybe they got scared off by Kiwi. Who knows?
The reason those testimonies were discounted was because Kiwi “knows” a few Eurasian cousins and has seen some others in his community or at his university and made conclusions from his empirical observations, as well as from comments he has read on other discussion forums and studies he has found. Nearly all of those comments are from non-Eurasians and those studies were not from their perspective. I am not discounting them for that reason, but they are presented from a particular point of view.
I have had direct dialogue with literally hundreds of multiracial Asians to understand their situation, in some cases, help them with their problems. Some of what Kiwi claims is consistent with what I observed from that; some is not. Of course, that is still anecdotal, but I found my experience with those people to be more consistent with the others who have made comments on this blog rather than with some of the ones that Kiwi claimed. It is not saying that his anecdotal claims are wrong, just that they are not that consistent with my experience (similar to how his experience with Mainland Chinese TV is not that consistent with my experience).
I don’t think it is appropriate to put specific names here as I do not think it is kind to involve people who are not here and who may not choose to be drawn into this “discussion” if you can call it that. I will not name names for their anonymity sake.
Really feel this offshoot discussion went off topic and I may comment on stuff if back on topic.
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@SP
A great deal of traffic to this blog includes lurkers. If they are lurking, then they are not commenting to provide anecdotal evidence to anything. If a person does not comment how do you know they are Eurasian?
Fact is Jefe is the only Eurasian that has provided such and stated to being Eurasian. There is a time that Jefe did not even open stated what he was. A stance I understood and supported.
“Surely, on a blog as visited as this one, it would not be difficult to find 6 or 7 Eurasians contributors that have encountered white racism?”—–The issue goes deeper than simply finding them. The issue is then finding where kiwi has argued with them. And no one woukd know unless they stated to be Eurasian.
“When Kiwi states that Eurasians should not be trusted, is he not discounting that evidence?”—-What evidence? Again, If Eurasians are not openly commenting on this blog then how can what they say be discounted?
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@Jefe
Personally don’t know if you are lying or not, but if a claim is made it needs to be supported. We all know kiwi has issue with his Eurasian cousins, but I don’t feel that should be used as a solid basis to say he does that to half a dozen Eurasia commenters that you are not willing to name.
@Solitaire
Do you mind me asking if you are Eurasian?
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@SP
I knew about it, but never that extent and had never encountered it myself.
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@Sharina
From what I understand, Kiwi is frustrated with Asians who seek to ‘whiten’ themselves by marrying into white families.
I think some Eurasians might develop a superiority complex, until they eventually realise, as they get older, that they will never be treated as equal by the white establishment.
Jefe strikes me as someone who is quite experienced and appears to be conveying this point to us.
But anyway, we have gone off-topic enough.
Therefore,
@Pumpkin
I agree.
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Abagond’s blog is school for me.
I never knew of the nuances between different types of Asians.
My upbringing would resemble the cast of the ‘Fast and Furious’ movies with similar racial and social dynamics.
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@Sharina,
The “fact” you claimed is simply not true. We have another commenter on this very thread who stated otherwise. We had the guy who moved from San Francisco to Maryland who frequently butt heads with Kiwi on this issue. I can think of specific females also and well as a few others whose names I would have to look up. I really don’t want to name names and bring people into this discussion who are not here.
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@ sharinalr
I don’t mind, and I am not.
I have been in a WF/AM relationship for almost thirty years. My spouse has been working with minority college students for about the same length of time, including both Asian American groups and organizations for people of multiracial descent.
He has worked with many hapa students, not just Eurasian but other mixes as well.
What knowledge I have is based on this and extensive reading. It does not make me an expert, and I cannot speak to the hapa/Eurasian experience with the authenticity that Jefe can.
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@somaliprince
There is a long history in the US, going back into the colonial era even before the nation was founded, of whites purposely turning different minority groups against each other to prevent the formation of a united front.
Some historians argue that the ruling white elite also actively worked against any sign of unity between minorities and lower-class whites, such as the anti-miscegenation laws that sprang up in the colonies after black slaves and white servants began marrying each other.
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SP, regarding your comment:
I am also frustrated with this – On this point I fully agree. Kiwi seems more frustrated with Asian women who do this, but I also get frustrated with Asian men who do that too (including my own father). I think I helped changed my father’s attitude about that in his middle age, which was spurred along with his final separation and divorce.
It may happen with “some”. I admit I have seen it too. It seems more common with those who are raised by white fathers and Asian male bashing mothers who try to teach their sons that they are “better” than Asian men and are entitled to white privilege.
When they get older (post-adolescence) they might learn that what their parents taught them is wrong. Some find ways to adjust satisfactorily from this, some don’t. Some adopt anti-social behaviour to deal with it (as in Elliot Rodger or Daniel Holtzclaw). Some adjust by somehow maintaining a sort of superiority complex into adulthood.
This “superiority complex” certainly is not typically found among those
– who were abandoned in Asia by their fathers, but who later came to the USA (eg, Vietnamese Amerasians)
– who were sent to be raised and educated in local Asian schools (eg, Eurasian kids who are bullied at local Japanese schools).
– who were adopted into monoracial families
– who were otherwise abandoned by or estranged from their fathers at a young age (and raised by a single parent mother, or by a mother who married back into her original racial group).
– who have Asian fathers who suffer from severe internalized racism
– who have white mothers who either gave them up for adoption or to be raised by their Asian father’s family (a subset of point 3 above)
– who otherwise have received bad treatment from their white relatives or family from an early age, eg, where their white parent was disowned from his/her family.
Ones who are members of the latter groups develop a different set of psychological issues to contend with.
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FearOfAMixedPlanet farther up the thread self identified as Eurasian.
Kiwi mostly agreed with him but was dismissive of FearOfAMixedPlanet view that Eurasian men had less statis then Asian women and white males and that contradicted Holtzclaw having white female supporters . (That was my interpetation, maybe it was something else).
I appreciated FearOfAMixedPlanet sharing as many of the things he spoke about I have observed without really seeing it before.
My oldest daughter is half white and half Mexican. During junior high she went through an identity crises. Because she couldn’t speak Spansih she felt she wasn’t accept by the Latino students. In fact she was bullied which led to her attacking a female hispanic in the middle of class in order for her to gain repect and stop the bulling. It led to her suspension. She also felt she wasn’t excepted by the white students mostly because the females were jelouse of her (she very attractive and had piercings) and she just couldn’t relate to their style or attitudes. She ended up hanging out with the Asian group because they were made up of Asian Americans with different backgrounds and she told me “they didn’t judge her”‘.
My oldest son didn’t seem to be affected by being biracial. That could be in part that he is gay and that was maybe more intense to deal with in high school then beimg biracial. Interestingly his sexual preference is Asian males. He did complain once that people kept identifying him as Russian Armenian but that was mostly from other Armenians.
He does have an Eurasian look. I’d you go to my Facebook page and look under family you we see that he’s a handsome man.
I coached a paintball team for a couple of years. It was made up of my son, some inner city kids and a few colloge students. One of my players, Jordan, was Asian American whose parents were orginally from Taiwan. I eventually made him team captain as he had leadership skillls. He was a gym rat, buff but not like the size of a body builder. Now that I think about it he was driven to over compensation. On the paint ball field he took great risks and ofter times sacrificed himself to save other players.
He also dated white women. He once mentioned that his final exam scores weren’t up to par and the he wasn’t living up to “being Asain”. He meant it as a joke but I think it shows some of the pressure Asian men put them through and part of the “self hating”.
Their is another paintball team called “The Asian Persuasion” that played in our division. Is was 100% Asain.
This is a short video of of our team placing 2nd place at a tourniment is Las Vegas. I’m very proud of it and if you are not familiar with the sport this shows you how it’s done.
(https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jKZz0ZdwpUU&feature=youtu.be&rdm=1tmnkp1hs&client=mv-google)
The most uncomfortable event we ever played was in Texas. The police pulled up into the parking lot of our hotel within 15 minutes of our getting their. We stuck out when we were walking around town and it was the first time in my life I felt eyes following up around. Paintball is a fringe sport and a fight sport. Getting hit by paintballs is like getting punched with a pool cue. It leaves brusing and can mke you bleed. Paintballers like to smoke pot so I was on pins and needles the whole time. I couldn’t wait to get out of Texas and the team agreed never to go back.
This vi
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@Solitaire,
Did you have any kids?
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@Solitaire
Yes, what frustrates me somewhat is that whites are very certain in their identity. Most whites don’t even question it and see themselves as the human default.
Non-whites, on the other hand, often find reasons to divide themselves and draw lines in the sand. This leads to disunity and further strenghtens white unity.
@Jefe
I can only imagine the host of issues Eurasians have to deal with.
Ultimately, they will be rejected by white society and could develop psychological issues as a result.
Being accepted by their Asian counterparts, rather than rejected, could help alleviate this.
But often, strength is born from pain.
There is a strong history of people of mixed descent who go on to achieve great things.
Bob Marley and Barak Obama might be examples of this, as would be Bruce Lee.
Alexandre Dumas (The Three Musketeers, Count of Monte Cristo etc.) also comes to mind.
There are many more that I cannot think of right now.
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Comment in mod.
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@SP
Not necessarily. Some perhaps achieve a degree of white acceptance within their social circle that they can live with. Sure it may take some psychological adjustment, but some may see that as a small price to pay for greater white acceptance.
Unfortunately, that is rarely the case. Many Asian societies emphasize racial purity and are even stricter about enforcing one-drop rules than white ones.
The current situation in the USA is not static and has been changing. Prior to WWII, when the Asian American communities were overwhelmingly male and the exclusion laws made it nearly impossible to get Asian wives, quite a few Asian men formed families with non-Asian women, usually white immigrant women in the North and blacks in the South (occasionally Mexican, Native American, etc.). Their children were usually recognized as part of the Asian communities their fathers were connected to, as many of the other men did the same thing. Some even sent their part white or part black kids to Asia to be educated.
In the South, pressures from Jim Crow forced Asian communities to distance themselves from their relatives who had black families.
White men with Asian wives did not start until after the War Brides Act, and only in states that did not have anti-miscegenation laws against it. We really didn’t see it start to grow until after the old immigration laws and anti-miscegenation laws were repealed. But that caused a breakdown in the kinship connection that the mixed race children of Asian men tended to enjoy before the 1960s. Now, it is based more on just race than on kinship. Once based on race, then racial purity tends to be valued more than kinship.
Blacks in the USA have always been more receptive of mixed race children, even of blasians. But they have a strict requirement – you can be accepted as black if you agree to identify solely as black. That seems to be easier in general for biracial black/white kids than for blasians (or perhaps also for some mixed Native Americans or Latinos), who might feel more need to retain their Asian or non-black identities. But for reasons explained above, Asian communities may not be very receptive to them either.
It makes perfect sense that the explosion in Hapa identity and multiracial activism grew exactly one generation after the repeal of Jim Crow and racist immigration laws.
In Holtzclaw’s case, he probably had little access to any of this alternative support. No wonder his fixation on taking advantage of black women with his “white” penis. That was the only model that he was exposed to and the one which shaped his behaviour. It is a shame that he could not find more socially responsible ways to make the needed psychological adjustments.
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@Jefe @MJB
Extremely informative.
Reading your posts, it strikes me that the race of the father appears to play an important role.
Eurasians with Asian fathers perhaps find it easier than Eurasians with White fathers?
In other words, when relationships were primarily AM/WF, acceptance into the Asian community was easier than it is now under primarily WM/AF relationships?
It seems to me that the core issue is, again, the prevalence of white supremacy in America.
Eurasians, regardless of the race of their father, will find it hard to be accepted by Whites.
Yet for those with an Asian father they can, at least, find acceptance in the Asian community?
It looks like those with a White father have it the hardest.
They may identify strongly with their fathers yet, unfortunately, no matter how hard they try, they will never be fully accepted by white society.
Also
@Jefe
Sounds very accurate. It strikes me as being a better construct than the one facing Eurasians.
Asians appear to be more willing to offer acceptance to mixed race children with an Asian father, whilst Blacks offer it to those who self identify as such (correct me if I am wrong).
Your statement reminds me of Angela Yee, a radio personality on Power 105.1 (The Breakfast Club).
She was born to a Chinese father and a Black mother yet, for all intents and purposes, has been fully accepted by the Black community.
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@Jefe
I know a few of the people you are referring to. One hinted at being hapa and the others did not openly say they were eurasian.
You don’t have to provide names. You could also provide links to a thread for people to read on their own.
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michaeljonbarker
Thank you. I was not aware of the details of FearOfAMixedPlanet mixtures. Now for the other 4.
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@SP
DUH!!!!!! Anyone who has been on this blog long enough know this about kiwi and Jefe.
The thing for me is you should not make allegations you are not going to support. When abagond made the White liberal guide thread he stated we were not allowed to do this to LOM without supporting. A stance I believe Jefe himself agreed on. Then when the shoe is on the other foot his first stance is “I don’t want to bring other commenter into this”. He had already done that when he stated Kiwi did that to a half a dozen other eurasians and then proceeded to claim one was on this thread. That is hypocritical and a double standard.
I am not saying he is a bad person or he does not provide valuable information, but in this situation there appears to be a bit of dishonesty and hypocrisy. From you as well.
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@Sharina @Kiwi
There is a difference between being wrong and telling a lie.
You have no evidence that Jefe was lying.
According to Wiktionary, a lie is a:
“a statement intended to deceive.”
You may be able to prove that Jefe was wrong, but you have no way of proving that he was intentionally trying to deceive.
If we use your definition of lying, i.e. making a mistake, then everyone here is a liar.
Including Kiwi.
Kiwi said that whites are overrepresented on Asian TV, they aren’t.
Did we call him a liar?
Were you there to call him up on that?
No, we just assumed he made a mistake.
Everyone makes mistakes, it is only human.
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@SP
I never called Jefe a lair, so what definition of mine do you think you are using?
I made it clear I don’t know if he is or not.
As to the Asian TV thing, you did not assume he made a mistake. You told him he had no idea what he was talking about. So save the bs. I already know your game of dishonesty.
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correction Liar*
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@SP
Also this goes two ways. You have no evidence to support the idea that Kiwi argued or dismissed half a dozen eurasian commenters. LOL The double standard is alive.
I think it is a bit deceptive and I think the comment above is clear enough on why without me having to repeat it.
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@Sharina
Honestly, I have a feeling that Kiwi is a frustrated young student who is driven by a strong dislike of Asian-American women and has latched on to the Black cause to vent his frustrations.
Had he been more successful with Asian women, I doubt he would even care about Blacks.
His comment about Blacks and ugliness confirm that for me.
I don’t detect the same kind of pent up bitterness in any of the other posters.
I have not been on this blog long but from reading through his comments, he has a tendency to show overt disgust for White-Asian interracial relationships and Eurasians.
A lot of what he says, frankly, sounds like what white supremacists say about white girls marrying black men.
I don’t oppose interracial relationships of any kind.
If anything, mixed relationships are one of the strongest weapons against white supremacy.
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somaliprince
I don’t care what you “feel” about kiwi. What you feel about it has little to nothing to do with the issue at hand. You made an allegation about me, so I expect a quote of mine where I called Jefe a liar, as well as a quote where I deemed “making a mistake” as my definition of a liar. Not to mention how the conclusion came about I assumed kiwi made a mistake on a situation I did not even engage in. I take your deflection as a sign of being a bit dishonest.
“His comment about Blacks and ugliness confirm that for me.”—-You assume too much about a person who is extremely sarcastic. But I can’t be too hard on you as many of your comments are confirming a bit of what I am thinking of you.
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@Solitaire
Thank you for sharing. I apologize for prying.
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@Sharina
You are not the one who called Jefe a liar, I was referring to when Kiwi called Jefe a liar.
And I already addressed the issue of Kiwi’s accusation, multiple times.
Kiwi has a tendency to accuse people of continuously shiting goalposts, being dishonest, lying etc.
Grojo has already called him up on it. I have already called him up on it.
When I have been wrong, have I not apologised?
Kiwi never owns up to any of his mistakes yet has somehow taken it up on himself to accuse the most consistent poster on this blog of lying.
Hardly anyone on this blog writes more informed posts than Jefe.
From the way Kiwi constantly beats down on Eurasians, it would not be a push to imagine he has done this with multiple Eurasians on this blog.
Jefe calls him up on it and, as usual, Kiwi responds by saying he’s a liar rather that simply saying Jefe is wrong.
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sharinalr,
Chica, it’s been obvious from day 1 since the “don’t hate the player, hate the game” rhetoric
but I’m going to stay neutral and mind my business because I know, Abagond likes the excitement
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@ jefe
No, we wanted to but were unable.
I started reading and talking to people about being hapa (and interracial in general) because I thought I was going to have hapa kids and wanted to be ready to help them however I could.
I’ve kept up the reading and learning because I find it interesting and challenging. It also helps me in my interactions with my partner’s students and colleagues, as well as in everyday life in general. Reading Abagond’s blog has been part of my effort to educate myself, challenge my own thinking, and identify and remove my own racist beliefs and actions.
I don’t know if you saw it, but on the Mercutio Southall thread where it got sidetracked into the perpetual foreigner discussion, you mentioned that your maternal ancestors fought in the Revolutionary War, and I responded that if I’d had kids, they would have had similar heritage to yours.
You also mentioned that you probably have Native American ancestory on that side. If you don’t mind my asking, have you ever thought you might also have African American ancestors on that side as well?
Most of my ancestors came here so early, and there are so many gaps in the colonial records of untraceable ancestors, that I pretty much assume I probably have both in my background.
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@ somaliprince
One aspect I think you’re missing in your summarization is that Eurasians have trouble being accepted wherever they go.
So as a theoretical example, an American child who has a Korean father and a white mother might find it easier to be accepted in the local Korean community than if he had a white father and Korean mother. But once he leaves home and moves to a different city to attend university or work, he’s going to have trouble being accepted into that city’s Korean community because he’s mixed race, and unlike his hometown, they haven’t known him from childhood.
To complicate matters, some white men married to Asian immigrant women are very involved in the local community. Whenever the (for example) Korean community has a get-together, he’s there along with his Korean wife and their hapa kids, encouraging his kids to embrace that side of their heritage. These kids are *still* going to have trouble throughout life being accepted by either Asians or whites. But they are less likely to have as much self-hatred as those with white fathers who are racist and supremacist.
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somaliprince
Then do me a favor and stop addressing what Kiwi said or you claimed he said with me and do so with him.
Secondly his accusation has merit based purely on the fact that YOU or Jefe have not presented anything that shows him as being wrong. Screaming about how he is making one and what you think of him is not proving him wrong, so no you didn’t address it.
As to the situation with Gro jo, they have a long history of accusing each other of that.
“When I have been wrong, have I not apologised?”—-Some things you do. Some things you don’t. For example you claimed I called Jefe and liar based on the definition of “making a mistake”. You then claimed you never claimed I said that and have sense tried to deflect from it.
“Hardly anyone on this blog writes more informed posts than Jefe.”—-I get your little man crush, but that does not change the situation here. He accused kiwi of something he has since decided to back away from. You have no qualms with saying Jefe should be exonerated, but because of your “feelings” towards kiwi you feel he should have to prove Jefe is lying. That is not how it works. Did you just pull the Tone argument to excuse a double standard?
Arguments don’t gain merit based on what you think of the commenter. I seem to remember Abagond saying similar in your defense when someone called you white. Hmmmm….
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“As to the situation with Gro jo, they have a long history of accusing each other of that.”
Sharinalr, my sweet angel, please tell me if I lied, as you are wont to claim, when I wrote that Kiwi’s claim that Asians find Blacks ugly is a product of his environment and not a general rule good for all times and places?
I have a hard time with that claim because I remember my nephew’s Korean-American girlfriend doting on him to the point of feeding him like a two year old. He is a very dark skinned man.
As I stated above, an equally dark skinned cousin married a Filipina because he bought the whole submissive Asian woman bit, had a kid with her and divorced when she turned out to be a lot less compliant than he expected.
A light skinned cousin as I stated above, had a child with his Korean mistress. These stories are lighthearted comedies when compared to the tragic romance of the son of an acquaintance. That tale ended in a double homicide and prison sentences. http://www.nytimes.com/2000/11/20/nyregion/body-found-in-river-is-thought-to-be-that-of-strangling-victim.html?_r=0
The New York Times
This copy is for your personal, noncommercial use only. You can order presentation-ready copies for distribution to your colleagues, clients or customers, please click here or use the “Reprints” tool that appears next to any article. Visit http://www.nytreprints.com for samples and additional information. Order a reprint of this article now. »
November 20, 2000
Body Found in River Is Thought To Be That of Strangling Victim
By ANDY NEWMAN
A decomposed body found in the East River yesterday is believed to be that of a woman who was strangled with her husband early this month in their East Harlem apartment. The couple’s daughter and her boyfriend have been charged in the deaths of the two, who were said to have disapproved of the relationship.
A passer-by spotted a laundry bag inside a shopping cart bobbing in the river off East 102nd Street yesterday around 11:30 a.m. and notified the police, said Officer Joseph Cavitolo, a police spokesman. The bag contained the body of an Asian woman, he said. The police have said that the body of Chilin Leung, 41, was dumped in the East River in a shopping cart on Nov. 7.
The medical examiner’s office is expected to confirm today that the body is Mrs. Leung’s, Officer Cavitolo said.
According to prosecutors, Ms. Leung’s 17-year-old daughter, Connie, and the girl’s boyfriend, Eric Louissaint, 20, have admitted killing Mrs. Leung and her husband, Stephen Leung, in their East Harlem apartment and dumping both bodies in the river. Mr. Leung’s body was found on Nov. 10.
The authorities have said that Connie Leung and Mr. Louissaint killed the girl’s parents because they disapproved of their daughter’s relationship with Mr. Louissaint. The parents, who were immigrants from Hong Kong, thought that Ms. Leung was spending so much time with her boyfriend that her grades were suffering, and possibly were upset because Mr. Louissaint is black, investigators said.
On Nov. 2, the authorities have said, Ms. Leung and Mr. Louissaint went to her parents’ apartment on First Avenue and 110th Street, strangled her father with a belt, waited for her mother to come home from work at a Chinese restaurant, then strangled her, too.
The young couple lived with the bodies for several days, the police have said. They dumped the mother’s body in the river on Nov. 7 and did the same with the father’s body on Nov. 10, the police said.
Ms. Leung and Mr. Louissaint were arrested on Thursday. On Friday, Mr. Louissaint was charged with first-degree murder and faces a possible death sentence, while Ms. Leung, who is not subject to a capital murder charge because she is younger than 18, was charged with second-degree murder.
Copyright 2015 The New York Times Company Home Privacy Policy Search Corrections XML Help Contact Us Back to Top
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@ Kiwi
You seem to fail to realize that white people do NOT consider biracial people to be white or anymore socially valuable than full-blooded POC. In the eyes of white people, there is no such thing as “Eurasian”. Half Asian/half-white is just Asian to most white people. The term “white” itself implies purity. A false socially constructed European purity that has been subject to change in definition over only a few generations. Once upon a time, Irish and Italians weren’t considered white. But as it stands today, a half-white/half-Asian person with even the slightest hint of Asian ancestry through their facial features or hair is considered to be “Asian” by American society. I think the Eurasians in America who face the least discrimination and have the most unearned social value are the Eurasian men who look completely white like Darren Criss or Keanu Reeves or the ambiguously ethnic looking women like Olivia Munn or Kristen Kreuk.
Elliot Rodger had a lot of white female supporters because he didn’t look Asian at all as a young adult. Elliot prided himself in not looking Asian and bragged about it on internet forums. Elliot could have easily passed for Italian, Greek, Spanish or Armenian. However, Elliot internalized that being half-Asian was inferior from growing up in Amerikkka. But there are plenty of Eurasian men out there who look 100% Asian. Plenty of racially ambiguous Eurasians still look Asian to many people out there because of the legacy of the one-drop rule. Just like how many biracial black people just look like another black person to most Americans. Most Americans would have never guessed that Obama’s mother was straight up white.
People say that biracial people are more attractive, but this is mostly because most biracial people in America are half-white and the whiter features knocks them up closer to a white standard of beauty. White standards of beauty are subconsciously made normative for everyone growing up in a predominantly white controlled society like America. But biracial people are still heavily stigmatized and treated as POC by society. A biracial half-black/half-white girl will never experience the privilege and social status of a white girl. Implying all Eurasian men have an easy life is like saying all biracial black women have it easy because men of all races fawn over Alicia Keys and Lauren London.
A Eurasian man will never enjoy the full package privileges and social status of a white man. And Eurasian men are not put on a pedestal in their daily lives. They are gawked at, casually disrespected and blatantly rejected by people of all races. Non-Asians look at most Eurasian men as just another Asian man and all of the nasty stereotypes that go with that. Asians look at Eurasian men as half-breeds who aren’t really Asian or white and have little social value. However, hybrid vigor is real and many Eurasians, and mixed race people in general, tend to be more attractive, interesting and intelligent than average. So it somewhat evens out.
However, implying that Eurasian men do not face the same prejudices as full-blooded Asian men is a lie. In some ways, Eurasian men have it harder than Asian men. At least you have a community and culture to fall back on. Imagine how angry you would be if you looked like just another Asian to most people, yet you were denied membership to any racial community, men of all races didn’t respect you and women of all races thought you were ugly because of that and that your own mother didn’t like Asian men as evidenced by the fact that your biological father was white and that you would never have access to his birthright racial privilege.
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@ somaliprince
I’ve been thinking about what I wrote above and wanted to make a clarification. The examples I used, being based on a situation with an Asian immigrant parent, may not be applicable to jefe’s experience.
According to what he’s said about his background, the Chinese side of his family has been in the USA for well over a hundred years and has been living in a specific region of the South for about as long. He has also said there is a history in his Chinese-American community of out-marriages with both Native American and African American women, and that the mixed-race children of these marriages have had different levels of acceptance within the Chinese-American community.
The dynamic in his long-established Chinese-American community when it comes to children of white fathers and Asian mothers may be very different from the immigrant dynamic I’m most familiar with.
That said, individuals like jefe are still typically going to have trouble being accepted by other Asian Americans if/when they move outside of the long-established community where they grew up.
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“Most Americans would have never guessed that Obama’s mother was straight up white.”
Most white Americans cannot (or have not learned) to make these distinctions. I suppose it’s a legacy of the one-drop rule.
When whites see a black mother or black father at the store with their half-white children, they assume those children are black.
If they see those same children at the store with their white mother, they realize then the children are mixed but immediately assume she’s a single mother and the dad’s run out on them.
There have been times that I know the family and I’m like, “Dude, their dad’s in the next aisle over holding the baby.”
I also get aggravated that when these same people see a white mother alone at the store with her white children, they never immediately jump to the conclusion that the white father is out of the picture.
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@Gro Jo
“Sharinalr, my sweet angel, please tell me if I lied, as you are wont to claim”—-When did I claim you lied on this thread? Please quote that and we can discuss further. As to other threads, I made a laundry list of your lies.
Good day. 🙂
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” on Thu 17 Dec 2015 at 19:47:51
Kiwi
gro jo said:
As I stated above, an equally dark skinned cousin married a Filipina because he bought the whole submissive Asian woman bit, had a kid with her and divorced when she turned out to be a lot less compliant than he expected.
Notice how gro jo gets all upset over what he perceives to be Asian racism against Blacks but has little to nothing to say about Black racism against Asians.”
Kiwi, my dear friend, please show me where I got all upset over Asian racism against Blacks but said nothing about Black racism against Asians? All I did here was tell the truth about three cases of Black-Asian relationships where I was acquainted with one or both parties and one where I didn’t know the people involved.
Are you trying to blame me for my cousin’s ideas about what an Asian woman should be? Your quote seems to imply that’s what you want to do. Shame on you. The fact that my nephew’s girl babied him seems to me to indicate that there’s a grain of truth in the Asian woman myth.
Where’s your girl Sharinalr, I want her to prove that My objection to your claim about Asians is false.
I see that you haven’t even tried to refute my claim about you and your circle. Am I 100%, 80%, 60%, 40%, 20%, or 0% right about you, your family and friends? I admire the way you tried to deflect, nice try but no cigar.
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“When did I claim you lied on this thread? Please quote that and we can discuss further. As to other threads, I made a laundry list of your lies.
Good day. ”
Darling girl, your calling me a “bitter betty. Not credibility.” implied that my comment was a lie.
Here’s your quote in its entirety: ” on Wed 16 Dec 2015 at 15:38:05
sharinalr
Gro Jo
Anything you say against kiwi is nothing more than the war cry of bitter betty. Not credibility.”
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@Gro Jo
LMFAO. You are reaching. I guess I will have to quote the full context of that comment to show exactly how much you are, but in the mean time. You got nothing.
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@ gro jo
“The fact that my nephew’s girl babied him seems to me to indicate that there’s a grain of truth in the Asian woman myth.”
Or this could just be confirmation bias.
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@ v8driver
Yeah, I’ve seen that happen, too. Also in high school there was one guy a couple years older than me who I knew both he and his sister were adopted. Parents and sister were definitely white, and we all just thought of him as white, too. It was only years after graduation that someone looking through my yearbook asked me about him.
I still don’t know what he was racially. Judging from looks, maybe Filipino, Samoan, Malaysian, or maybe Native American.
I didn’t know him well enough to say he never got any trouble for it. He did run in a very popular clique, really high up in our school’s pecking order. But even if no one gave him crap at our school, I wouldn’t be surprised if he got it elsewhere, like at away games.
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” on Thu 17 Dec 2015 at 21:06:43
sharinalr
@Gro Jo
LMFAO. You are reaching. I guess I will have to quote the full context of that comment to show exactly how much you are, but in the mean time. You got nothing.”
Really? Now you’re playing the old “If only I had time for your nonsense” bit? You know I find you irresistible when you lie so flagrantly. Keep it up. 🙂
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It looks like the “Justice for Daniel Holtzclaw” FB page has been removed.
I wasn’t able to find any link or sites showing white women speciifally supporting him.
I’m going to speculate that the same people who showed support for Holtzclaw did so because they support police officers. Their the same people that support cops that shoot Black people.
That the all white jury convicted him supports FearOfAMixedPlanet statement that biracial people mixed with white are not seen as white.
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@gro jo
Okay.
I never said I don’t have time for it, but like you made something out of nothing in that quote of mine this is no different.
This quote “Anything you say against kiwi is nothing more than the war cry of bitter betty. Not credibility” Is actually in response to you saying this “I’m glad to see that I’m not the only one to come to the conclusion that Kiwi is hysterical, childish, and a liar.”
That statement holds no credibility because you are bitter about past arguments you have had with kiwi. You would say that being a bitter betty. You bring your dislike of kiwi to any and every thread like a hurt child. It is the same things you do with me. You were so bitter about me saying you value white scholars over black scholars (which was in a polite manner) that you went on a whole different thread and attacked me and started calling me Afrocentric. So if you come to a thread and decided to lay claim that Kiwi is xyz, It should not be taken seriously. because you still harbor anger at him for past disagreements.
Sorry I simply did not care enough to read the rest of what was in that comment, but true to my nature if I thought it was a lie I would have just called you a liar. Which so far you still have no place that I have.
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@michaeljonbarker
“I’m going to speculate that the same people who showed support for Holtzclaw did so because they support police officers.”—That may very well be true, but I found that the white women spoke louder than the white men this time around. That I found odd because this is a rape case. You would think women would sympathize with the plight of a raped woman.
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@Solitaire
I don’t mean to pry and please feel free to tell me if you don’t feel comfortable responding, but we talk a lot about white men being so quickly accepted by Asian and some times black families.
As a white man being married to an Asian woman, did you find acceptance from her family easy? Did you face challenges?
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@ Sharinair … I belive Solitaire identified as an Asian male married to a white women.
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Is being mixed A bad thing?
Look at Miss Japan (Or Miss Jamaca or Miss South Africa) – she comments on the racism directed towards her.
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michaeljonbarker
Thanks for the correction.
@Solitaire
I apologize for my mistake. I should have read your comments thoroughly.
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“The fact that you see Black crime on TV seems to me to indicate that there’s a grain of truth in the Black criminal stereotype.”
Yes, and?
” Our ‘friend’ Kiwi should have said that he, his family and friends find Blacks repulsive instead of claiming that “It has more to do with Asians thinking Blacks are ugly.
Are you trying to blame me for my cousin’s ideas about what an Asian woman should be? Your quote seems to imply that’s what you want to do. Shame on you.
So it’s okay for you to blame me for other people’s ideas about race but it’s not okay for me to mimic you? Wow. You are really are a stupid hypocrite.”
Kiwi, I love your sophistries, my statement and yours are not commensurate, why not? Because My cousin’s opinion is his alone, you are free to condemn me for not getting on my moral high horse and damn him for holding his views, but you can’t seriously associate me with them.
You on the other hand associate yourself with the view that all Asians think that Blacks are ugly because you attribute that belief to all Asians.
Need I remind you that you are Asian and if your claim is accepted as fact, what you attribute to the group would be true for you as a member of that group. DO YOU SEE THE DIFFERENCE?
stereotypes maybe misleading, but they do have a basis in facts. Make of this statement what you will.
Sharinalr, I’m experiencing paroxysms of pleasure reading your nonsense. So, you weren’t implying that my stories showing that Kiwi’s claim about Asians wasn’t as universally applicable as he indicated were lies?
I want to believe you but I can’t, your statement leaves no wiggle room to interpret what you wrote as anything but a condemnation of everything I wrote.
Here’s your statement: “Anything you say against kiwi is nothing more than the war cry of bitter betty. Not credibility”
You claim that “anything” I wrote was invalid for the reasons you gave at the end of that statement, meaning that my experience of Black-Asian romances that gave the lie to Kiwi’s claim are lies. Next time you want to claim that SOME of the things I wrote lack credibility, just write “some” instead of “anything”, thereby saving us both a great deal of time.
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@Gro Jo
It is okay, because I didn’t ask you to believe. You are twisting all kinds of side ways to try to find that something that says “I gotcha.” Sorry, but this case is a no go.
“So, you weren’t implying that my stories showing that Kiwi’s claim about Asians wasn’t as universally applicable as he indicated were lies?”—I never made a response to that at all, so how can I imply something I never responded to? First you claimed I flat out said you lied. Now you are claiming I implied. Guess what? I didn’t imply or say it. So if you can’t make up your mind which one I did how can you claim to be a credible person here. A deceitful person maybe.
“I want to believe you but I can’t, your statement leaves no wiggle room to interpret what you wrote as anything but a condemnation of everything I wrote.?”—I honestly don’t care if you do or don’t. You are a dog with a bone. I could say anything and you will try to twist and make something out of it. But here is a quick little bit to look at here. If I stated “Anything you say against kiwi,” then explain to me how your anecdotal experiences are against Kiwi exactly? In fact that has nothing to do with kiwi, so what you are saying or claiming just makes no sense.
“You claim that “anything” I wrote was invalid for the reasons you gave at the end of that statement, meaning that my experience of Black-Asian romances that gave the lie to Kiwi’s claim are lies. Next time you want to claim that SOME of the things I wrote lack credibility, just write “some” instead of “anything”, thereby saving us both a great deal of time.”—-Why should I change what I said so you can feel better about a false assumption you made to make yourself look less pitiful? As I stated above you are reaching. Just don’t tear a muscle. 🙂
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@ sharinalr
@ MJB
Looking back, I can see how that wasn’t a clear statement on my part.
“I have been in a WF/AM relationship…” = I am a white woman with an Asian American man.
Sharinalr, I can answer your question if you’re still interested, but I understand if you were only curious about the acceptance of white males.
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Solitaire
I am still interested. More so seeing as you are a woman. 😉
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@Solitaire
I strongly believe it, but need to investigate. My maternal grandmother was born in NW Georgia, which was Cherokee country until the Trail of Tears and still heavily populated by Cherokee until just before the Civil War. She told me her grandmother was “Black Dutch” which I have later learned to be those people who were part Cherokee tri-racials but who claimed to be Black Dutch to explain their darker complexion and non-European features so that they could retain their land and not be removed. I saw a 19th century photo of her before and challenged my grandmother if her grandmother was actually white or not (she looked like those tri-racial people who claim Native American heritage that I see in the eastern USA). She told me that as far as she knew, she was “white” (with a look of dread on her face).
My father’s family came to the USA in the 1930s/1940s, so my father’s older sisters actually grew up in China. Having ancestors in the USA does not mean that that is when one’s family entered the USA. The Chinese Exclusion Act and continuing immigration restrictions, followed by the Cultural revolution created a system of serial immigration over several generations. It meant that new immigrants in the 1980s-1990s (including some of my relatives) were often descendant of those who came to the USA in the 1870s.
It also helps to explain why, although my great-grandfather first came in the 1870s, I still learned Chinese dialect as my “mother tongue” in my early childhood.
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@Solitaire
Yes, I think it does work like that, because I experience similar things like that.
I grew up in Washington, DC. The old Chinese community there knew my grandparents and my Dad, so they could easily place where I fit in. When I was young, the people in the clan associations knew exactly who I was and I also worked in a Chinese restaurant where owner knew my grandfather.
It even extended further. My grandfather’s older brother made his living in New York in the paper son trade. I met strangers who placed my identity as the great nephew of this infamous person who brought thousands of people over during the exclusion era. Even people in New York knew who I was.
When I went to my grandfather’s home village in China, everyone knew exactly who I was. The older ones remembers my grandfather and my Aunts. There is a picture of me as a baby that my grandfather had sent to them on the wall of his house which was later occupied by another (relative’s) family. Immediately, I had a place in their framework there and treated like family.
But, drop me off where no one knew me, say in Seattle or Los Angeles or Chicago or Houston, and there I am an ethnically ambiguous person with no identity. It would take me decades (if ever) to be accepted into any community, especially one based on race.
I have been decades where I am now and people of all races and ethnic backgrounds still treat me like a foreigner, an outsider.
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@Solitaire,
After listening to hundreds of cases, I find you see similar things with Eurasian families.
When whites see an Asian woman with her Eurasian children, whites think the mother is their nanny.
When whites see a white woman (or white man) with her (his) Eurasian children (son), whites think the children are adopted.
When whites see a white man with his Eurasian daughter, whites think he is a middle-aged man who likes to date young girls.
In any case, they are not treated as family by the outside world.
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“I never made a response to that at all, so how can I imply something I never responded to?”
That statement is a lie, the whole point of your intervention was to discredit me as a practiced liar. My testimony was given as direct refutation of Kiwi’s racist diatribe, so your questioning my credibility was meant to undermine my testimony and my conclusions based on same.
“First you claimed I flat out said you lied. Now you are claiming I implied. Guess what? I didn’t imply or say it. So if you can’t make up your mind which one I did how can you claim to be a credible person here. A deceitful person maybe.”
You really can’t help yourself can you? You are making the same phony argument here.
I’m clear on the fact that you lied by insinuating that I’m not credible but Kiwi is. I admire your attempt to do so without arguing against my facts or stating why Kiwi’s claim should be accepted as valid.
I want you to state clearly that you agree with Kiwi that Asians, all of them, find Blacks repulsive. So far, all that you’ve managed to do is put on display your confusion, malice and dishonesty.
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@v8driver
Where I grew up had many military families, including some with Asian war brides, so I saw a number of Eurasian (even some Blasian) kids where I grew up. I “knew” they looked Eurasian (even largely Asian) but with white sounding names and very socialized into the white community. To most of the white kids, they did not even think of them as anything but white. They would only be reminded of it if their mother ever showed up.
I asked some of my white schoolmates about those people, and they told me that no one ever thought of them as Asian, but NO ONE thought of me as white. I asked them what was different between me and them and they could not explain it. It’s just what they think.
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@ sharinalr
His family has been difficult. My parents have been far more accepting of him, although they haven’t been perfect.
Things between me and his parents have gone somewhat easier than they might have because of his dating history. I wasn’t the first white girl he’d brought home. He has never fit the stereotype of the Asian American man who can’t get a date. (And he’s only 5’5″, so that doesn’t explain it, either.)
In high school and college, he dated about as widely as imaginable: black girls, white girls, Asian American girls, Hispanic girls, Jewish girls, Muslim girls, Buddhist girls. Lest he sound like a slut or a player, most of these consisted of two or three formal dates before deciding to just remain friends. For some reason, he was following a 1950s-style dating pattern in the late 70s and 80s, and I think girls found that sweet and charming.
His three long-term serious relationships prior to me, however, were also white women. My understanding is that his parents put two of these white girls through holy hell. They haven’t been as bad to me, but they’ve tried multiple times to break us apart.
They have made it very clear to him that the only truly acceptable wife would have been one who was not just Filipina but Ilocano (which is their tribe or ethnic group).
They also made it very clear to him during his dating-around phase that if he married a Japanese-American woman, he would be disowned and dead to them. He almost got kicked out of the house just for going on a casual movie date with one.
They objected pretty strongly to the African-American and Hispanic girls as well, but not to the same degree.
After that, it gets confusing. His parents prefer white girls to some Asian ethnic groups but not others. Religion seems to be part of it: they would have been happier with a Catholic Vietnamese daughter-in-law than a non-Catholic white.
They tend to be polite to me to my face most of the time, and then fill his ears with virulence behind my back. Apparently they don’t realize he tells me all of it. Oh, and he has also failed them as a son for not providing them with (preferably 100% Ilocano) grandchildren. He gets that lecture a few times a year.
Two of his aunties, though? His mother’s sisters who at various times in his childhood lived with them and helped to raise him? They have never been anything but good as gold to me, warm and caring and wonderful.
About acceptance of white men, I can’t really estimate how many families do and don’t, but I have seen some Asian immigrant parents go ballistic when they discovered their American-raised daughter was dating a white boy. My spouse had one such student whose family not only demanded she stop seeing the white boy but attempted to forcibly ship her to the home country and marry her off. I think there were restraining orders involved; I don’t know the whole story, only that he and the director of the university women’s center worked really hard to get this young woman to safety.
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@ jefe
“She told me her grandmother was “Black Dutch” which I have later learned to be those people who were part Cherokee tri-racials…”
That does seem like a very strong possibility. I don’t have anything like that, but in my family oral history there’s a tale about a Civil War-era great-great-great-grandmother that sounds suspiciously like a cover story for crossing the color line.
“It also helps to explain why, although my great-grandfather first came in the 1870s, I still learned Chinese dialect as my “mother tongue” in my early childhood.”
Ok, I see what I did. I made a stupid mistake. Your great-grandfather wasn’t allowed to bring his wife over from China, nor his daughters. And his sons could only come to the USA once they were grown men, right? So it’s this weird thing where on one hand your Chinese side has a long history in the USA but on the other hand each generation was Issei, never Nisei or Sansei. (Sorry, if there are Chinese equivalents to those terms, I don’t know them.)
Can I ask which Chinese dialect it is?
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@Solitaire,
It sounds like, despite everything, your relationship has been more or less stable and healthy for decades, despite some hostility from the in-laws. My parents’ went sour from the get go.
Btw, my godmother (“ninang”) is Filipino-American whose first husband was from Pangasinan and whose 2nd husband was Italian (Sicilian)- American. Her older brother married a white woman first; after divorcing her, he married a Hawaiian-born woman of Visayan-Ilocano background. They and the rest of their families were my father’s closest friends when I was growing up. He seemed to prefer hanging around Filipinos rather than Chinese.
Also, needless to say, their whole extended family has multiple examples of Eurasians/mestizos with both full Asian and white siblings and Asian adoptees and some of the younger generation are now part-black. I even have a cablinasian great nephew myself with another on the way.
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@ jefe
Oh, hey there! I’m still trying to work my way through your earlier comments.
I knew a couple Filipino families growing up, but it was only after I met my partner that I found out about all the different ethnic groups and how they have some really nasty stereotypes for each other and how the Ilocanos are holding a grudge against the Tagalogs that goes back to the American invasion/conquest, not to mention the Muslim part of the islands, and oh my goodness! And yet on the other hand, the American-raised kids twist all those stereotypes around and use them to tease each other without taking any of it seriously.
“He seemed to prefer hanging around Filipinos rather than Chinese.”
Filipinos apparently have a “party Asian” reputation. I’ve heard Asian Americans of other descents describe Filipinos as being so much more fun, so less strict and rigid, etc. Unfortunately my FIL never got that memo.
“My parents’ went sour from the get go.”
But they were a different generation in a different time and place. Early 1960s, right? Loving v. Virginia hadn’t even happened yet. I don’t know if I could have stood up to that kind of societal pressure.
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@ Solitaire
Your comment is the 200,000th posted comment in this blog!!!
What would you like me to do a post on?
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@ jefe
“When whites see an Asian woman with her Eurasian children, whites think the mother is their nanny.
When whites see a white woman (or white man) with her (his) Eurasian children (son), whites think the children are adopted.
When whites see a white man with his Eurasian daughter, whites think he is a middle-aged man who likes to date young girls.”
Yep, this all rings a bell. The middle example is the kind of thing I was preparing for. I wanted to have some pithy comebacks ready.
I’ve heard of the first example happening to Latina and Native mothers, too. Also, god help me I can’t remember where I read this, it might have even been on Abagond’s blog. But about a year ago I saw an article about a white male/black female couple where their baby was pretty much expressing all the European phenotypes and looked full white. Mom was dark-complected, and she said the same thing, that she was constantly mistaken for her child’s nanny.
I also remember in Rebecca Walker’s autobiography–this is Alice Walker’s daughter–she wrote about how her white Jewish father’s second wife was white and their kids (her half-siblings) were white and they lived in a very white neighborhood. When she would go to stay with them for the summer, everyone in that neighborhood thought she was the babysitter, the hired help.
“In any case, they are not treated as family by the outside world.”
As an interracial couple, we get this, too. Whenever we go out to eat, especially somewhere that you place your order at a counter, the first thing one of us says is, “We’re together.” Because there have been too many times they have assumed we’re not together and totaled the receipt before one of us got to order–and this even when we’re holding hands.
“To most of the white kids, they did not even think of them as anything but white. They would only be reminded of it if their mother ever showed up.”
I’m guilty of this exact same thing, and I can’t explain it. I don’t understand it myself. It was like there wasn’t any difference to us kids between “Oh, so-and-so’s Mom is from Japan” and “Oh, so-and-so’s Mom is from Italy.”
But the guy I wrote about above, the one adopted by the white couple? He didn’t look part white or mixed race. He looked just like the Filipino kids in town. I don’t understand how I didn’t see that. I want to go back and slap my teenage self upside the head.
Then I start wondering about what things were like in his family. Was it acknowledged in his own family that he was brown? Or were they trying to be color-blind and pretend it didn’t matter? Did he have anyone to talk to about things that happened to him, about micro-aggressions and outright slurs?
He was a very popular kid compared to me. But now I wonder how alone and isolated he may have really felt.
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@ abagond
Wait, what??
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@ Solitaire
Is there anything you would like me to do a post on? Your comment was the 200,000th one on this blog, so that is your prize. (Sorry, I do not have enough money to give you a new car, as Sondis suggested.)
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@ abagond
Well, I know what I would most like, but I’m not sure if the logistics will work for you.
You have designated March as White History Month. I’ve read your reasoning and don’t disagree with it.
However, March is also Women’s History Month. What I would most like is for you to write a post sometime during March in observance of Women’s History Month, preferably on a notable woman of color or minority women’s organization.
If this is simply too far in the future to work, please let me know.
Also, I apologize if you did something in observance of Women’s History Month last March. I don’t remember seeing any mention of it, but it was almost a year ago, and I’m working with old brain cells.
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@Gro Jo
I’m short for time so I will respond to this i pieces.
“That statement is a lie, the whole point of your intervention was to discredit me as a practiced liar.”—You are a practiced liar. I called you as much on the other thread, but you honestly have no proof, implied or otherwise, that I am calling you such on this thread. If anything you helped to showcase how bitter you are and how much you bring other thread beef to new threads.
After my fully reply though you will have another thread showing you as the dishonest little rat that you truly are. 🙂
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@ Kiwi
Yes, “hybrid vigor” is real and many people believe mixed race people are more attractive. How much of this has to do with racism. Some because most mixed race people in America are half-white. But it doesn’t account for the way blasian women are often put on a pedestal among many black men because they are “exotic”.
What is racist is implying that all WMAF couples are anti-POC. It doesn’t make sense for WMAF to be 100% anti-POC because WMAF involves choosing women of color of white women who are considered the default standard of beauty and normalcy.
Kiwi, I bet if Asian men were as popular with white women as Asian women are as popular with white men you would not have anything nice to say about black people and would not want to form common cause with them. I bet that if white women fetishized Asian men the way they fetishize black men, you wouldn’t have anything negative to say about WMAF relationships or Eurasian people; an experience you know nothing about. Asian men worshipping white women is just as bad as Asian women worshipping white men. But many times Asian men are bad at hiding the fact that they would no longer be resentful if they had the coveted sexual validation of white women that many male POC seem to lust over. You have Asian pick up artists like JT Tran who charge thousands of dollars to teach Asian men how to pick up white women. Elliot Rodger’s lust for white women’s validation is a reflection of a societal brainwashing of male POC who have internalized the lie that a white woman is the ultimate standard of beauty, attractiveness and femininity. It just so happens with mentally disturbed Eurasian men, attaining a white woman is also a symbol of validation of their own whiteness.
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” on Fri 18 Dec 2015 at 12:09:00
sharinalr
@Gro Jo
I’m short for time so I will respond to this i pieces.
“That statement is a lie, the whole point of your intervention was to discredit me as a practiced liar.”—You are a practiced liar. I called you as much on the other thread, but you honestly have no proof, implied or otherwise, that I am calling you such on this thread. If anything you helped to showcase how bitter you are and how much you bring other thread beef to new threads.
After my fully reply though you will have another thread showing you as the dishonest little rat that you truly are. 🙂
Incoherent as you usually are, you are now scraping the bottom of the barrel. Stop wasting time and state your agreement with Kiwi’s idiotic comment, and tell me why he’s right. I need the laugh. Your comment had only one purpose, to take the focus away from your boy Kiwi’s lie about Asians. For your and Kiwi’s edification, Asians run the whole gamut as far as skin color goes.
“After my fully(sic) reply though you will have another thread showing you as the dishonest little rat that you truly are. :)”
Goody, I can’t wait to see you torture basic logic. You’ll no doubt produce another mendacious mishmash while avoiding stating where you really stand on the point of contention between Kiwi and me.
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@Gro Jo
“My testimony was given as direct refutation of Kiwi’s racist diatribe, so your questioning my credibility was meant to undermine my testimony and my conclusions based on same.”—But you never made a direct refutation to kiwi. The comment in question was actually a response to Somaliprince. One that included your anecdotal experience of two of your relatives, coupled with personal attacks toward kiwi.
Exhibit A:
“So would a couple of my male relatives who have procreated with Asian women. One of them didn’t even bother to marry his Korean girlfriend! To his credit, he does provide for the lad, being a rich doctor, he can easily afford it.
The problem with such ‘debates’ is that people take their personal biases and attribute them to all the members of the group they claim to represent.
Our ‘friend’ Kiwi should have said that he, his family and friends find Blacks repulsive instead of claiming that “It has more to do with Asians thinking Blacks are ugly.
I’m glad to see that I’m not the only one to come to the conclusion that Kiwi is hysterical, childish, and a liar.”( https://abagond.wordpress.com/2015/11/09/daniel-holtzclaw/#comment-303745)
My response actually comes directly after this. Making it unlikely to be in response to what you claim it does. In fact it was not until here (https://abagond.wordpress.com/2015/11/09/daniel-holtzclaw/#comment-303898) That you presented the claim “when I wrote that Kiwi’s claim that Asians find Blacks ugly is a product of his environment and not a general rule good for all times and places?” As can be seen above all you did was make it personal. Now you want to apply this idea that I called you “a liar about everything” based on your twist of logic. You tried.
“You really can’t help yourself can you? You are making the same phony argument here.”—How is it a phony argument when you did say “please tell me if I lied, as you are wont to claim” and later said “implied that my comment was a lie.” Yet nothing you presented shows me saying it or implying it, especially when it is not one in response to what you claimed it was in response to.
“I’m clear on the fact that you lied by insinuating that I’m not credible but Kiwi is. I admire your attempt to do so without arguing against my facts or stating why Kiwi’s claim should be accepted as valid.”—That is your false conclusion. You made personal attacks against kiwi. You want to be seen as credible, on another matter, when this matter is all about your ad hominems. This has nothing to do with who is more credible. It has to do with you. You are not credible when it comes to making a judgement on a persons character, especially kiwi as I have already stated why. You didn’t present a fact, but an opinion based on another commenter. An opinion that you so happen to be the only one to draw that conclusion to.
“I want you to state clearly that you agree with Kiwi that Asians, all of them, find Blacks repulsive. So far, all that you’ve managed to do is put on display your confusion, malice and dishonesty.”—You know this shows some desperation here. You want me to admit to your straw man argument being what I believe because you can’t successful make your point otherwise? That is really sad. One thing I noticed about you is you have the need to force people to argue what you want them to. It is amazing how a comment I made so far up thread turned into one that you want to claim is refuting an argument you made several posts down thread. So who is the confused, malice, and dishonest person now?
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Pure nonsense.
For one thing, two homo sapiens pairing does not a “hybrid” make. Even under the most imaginative stretch of the term. And “many people” have believed many things… that are completely wrong. There is absolutely ZERO evidence that “mixed race” people (again, really no such thing) are any more aesthetically appealing to most people than anyone else.
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@Solitaire
Thank you for taking the time to share. I honestly did not expect so much detail. I’m sorry you have it so hard with his parents. I must admit you are strong to be able to deal with it. It sounds like the Aunts have a strong hand in keeping your positive. That and the love of your husband.
Things used to be that way with my mother-in-law. Most of it had to do with her “dislike” of my daughters hair, which she felt should be straightened. Sadly she believed that if I took care of the kids hair a certain way it would straighten out. She tolerated me until I became a member of the church(LDS) and we bonded then.
Though the feelings of your in-laws seem so cruel and harsh. It was quite hard to read that part.
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I dislike the term “hybrid vigor” as it reminds me too much “race realisim” ect.
I took FearOfAMixedPlanet comment to mean that biracial mixed with white were more “attractive” because their white features are found attractive to other whites BECAUSE of white racial preference. If he means race mixing creates a superior race then I’d strongly disagree.
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@King
I actually looked it up. The scientific term for it is heterosis.
Wikipedia has the following passage regarding human beings:
In other words, some have gone so far as to argue that the reason general IQ levels have been rising for the last 100 or so years is because human beings have been diversifying the gene pool.
In other words, genetic mixing creates ‘superior humans’.
Sounds a bit silly to me.
Flynn himself has argued against it.
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Wow, your mendacity knows no limit. “But you never made a direct refutation to kiwi. The comment in question was actually a response to Somaliprince.”
Pray tell my dear, what was Somali prince’s comment about, was it not about Kiwi’s claim that “@Kiwi
It has more to do with Asians thinking Blacks are ugly.”
Being the careless reader you proudly claim to be, you overlooked that quote. pathetic.
So, the story of the tragic romance of my acquaintance’s son, written in the NYT is anecdotal?
“You know this shows some desperation here. You want me to admit to your straw man argument being what I believe because you can’t successful make your point otherwise? That is really sad.”
So, you can’t clearly state where you stand vis-à-vis my claim that Kiwi’s evaluation of the attractiveness of Blacks is purely a product of his social environment?
I’ve wasted enough time with you and Kiwi on this one. Let’s do it again on some other thread using fresh material.
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@MJB
Yes, looks like we are swinging from one extreme to another.
On the one hand. we want to avoid Asians bashing Eurasians.
But on the other hand, we don’t want Eurasians to start believing that they are part of some sort of superior race.
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More anecdotal evidence that not all Asians find Blacks repulsive: http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2015/09/21/fake-it-til-you-make-it-chinas-obama-impersonator-sets-sino-u-s-stage/tab/print/
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@gro jo
“Wow, your mendacity knows no limit.”—Let me know when you can find that untruthfulness. Because your Mind reading, Living in a fantasy, and preconceived ideas are not proof that I am being so.
http://thedailylove.com/when-you-assume-you-make-an-ass-out-of-me-and-you-give-it-up/
“Being the careless reader you proudly claim to be, you overlooked that quote. pathetic.”—I didn’t overlook that quote, but you are not responding to that quote. You are responding to Somaliprince. You are the one who claimed it was a “direct” refutation of kiwi’s claim”. Obviously it was not. You arent’ refuting someone if you are simply engaging in ad hominem against them. Your anecdotal does not refute him. It just gives your experience of two couples. Furthermore the whole argument was an straw man. Where did he say ALL? As you have repeatedly stated he has.
“So, the story of the tragic romance of my acquaintance’s son, written in the NYT is anecdotal?”—It is, but unless it is in the comment I was referring to it has no basis in this argument.
“So, you can’t clearly state where you stand vis-à-vis my claim that Kiwi’s evaluation of the attractiveness of Blacks is purely a product of his social environment?”—I never stood on it at all. You want to force me to take a stand on something you want me to. But like I said on the other thread. I will not engage in your straw man arguments.
“I’ve wasted enough time with you and Kiwi on this one. Let’s do it again on some other thread using fresh material.”—In short, you got caught and have no way to twist it. 🙂
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@ sharinalr
I apologize for over-sharing. I didn’t mean to make you uncomfortable. It’s just that the in-laws’ attitudes about interracial marriage are so complex. It didn’t seem correct to simply say, “They don’t like my being white.” They prefer me to some other possibilities, but I’m also not the race they truly wanted and expected their DIL to be.
I have never felt fully accepted and always walk on eggshells around them. It is much easier now that we live a couple thousand miles away instead of a few blocks. I don’t feel particularly strong. There are many things I wish I could go back and do over, although ultimately I don’t know if it would change their feelings.
“Most of it had to do with her “dislike” of my daughters hair, which she felt should be straightened.”
I think you were right not to straighten their hair. It can be so harsh and damaging to the follicles–maybe more so when they’re young? And natural hair is beautiful.
If you don’t mind my asking, is your MIL a different race from you? Or was this more a disagreement over what/whose standards of beauty to accept?
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@Solitaire
“I apologize for over-sharing”—You don’t have to apologize for that. It wasn’t that it made me uncomfortable, but more so people don’t like to share a lot over the internet. When you did I was thankful as well as surprised.
“I don’t feel particularly strong.”—Try not to be so hard on yourself. You have his love and you stick around regardless. That says a lot to me. Only a truly strong woman could handle that.
“If you don’t mind my asking, is your MIL a different race from you?”—-I want to say yes, Mexican, but some people (including myself at times) don’t consider them a different race. Although I also don’t really see them as the same either. I will say no to be safe. Some people see her as black and she may identify in paperwork as “black” Mexican, but her features are so ambiguous it is not really accurate to say that she is.
With that being said, I think parts of it have to do with standards of beauty she was raised on. She thinks natural hair is untamed. My son has curly hair and she has made statements about his hair being “nappy”. His hair use to be straight until he turn 3 and you heard not a word about it during that times period.
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@ sharinalr
Thank you for your kind words. I figure I’m anonymous on the internet, so it actually gives me more freedom to talk about things that I might be embarrassed to discuss face to face.
Well, people use Mexican to mean a race all the time, but it isn’t really, is it? Mexican and American are nationalities, and people can be any race or any mix of races and still be Mexican or American. But then the cultures of the two countries are very different, as well as the language and history.
So yes, if I understand correctly, your MIL may have a significant amount of African ancestry, but there are still going to be huge cultural differences because being a black Mexican means something much different than being a black American. Is that more or less right, or am I missing something?
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@ Solitaire
Is there any particular one you want?
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@Solitaire
“Is that more or less right, or am I missing something?”—No, you are correct. Though in all honesty we have started to become more culturally Mexican over the years. I am a southern girl, so deep fried everything with cornbread and black eyed peas is it, but over the years we have been eating that type stuff less and less and have traded it for more Mexican dishes.
I know this might sound crazy, but have you attempted to adopt any Filipino cultures to see if that will appease your in-laws?
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Have you done anything on Maria W. Stewart?
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Sorry, that was @ abagond
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@ sharinalr
“I know this might sound crazy, but have you attempted to adopt any Filipino cultures to see if that will appease your in-laws?”
No, it’s not crazy. That’s really good advice for anyone in an interracial or intercultural relationship, especially someone from the majority culture. And the answer is, ohgodyes I tried and tried. The first time I ever met them, I had a bunch of Filipino phrases memorized, I had gifts for everyone, I had practiced how to refuse food two times before accepting it on the third offer.
I have done everything in my power to persuade his mother to teach me her recipes, to no avail. I made more headway with the aunties, but that just enabled his parents to criticize everything I cooked. She has literally grabbed cooking implements out of my hands as I was in the process of making lumpia and pushed me away from the stove.
I bent over backwards trying to please them for years. And at some point I realized, their son can’t do anything right in their eyes, why do I think I’m going to be any different?
Because some of this comes down to the reality that they just aren’t very pleasant or reasonable people. Two weeks after my spouse received his doctorate degree, his father began badgering him to apply to law school. Because somehow having a PhD just isn’t good enough.
For the last decade or so, I’ve switched tactics. Anything he needs to do that his parents are going to be unhappy about, we figure out a way that I can take the blame, not him. I run interference between him and his parents as much as possible. They’re never going to like me, so I might as well put that to strategic use to lessen the pressure they put on their son.
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@Sharinair,
On this point, I strongly agree with you. It does not sound crazy at all.
In fact, I think it would be terrific if I saw more white women who are married to Asian men …
– learn to cook more food and cuisine that is common in the cultural background of her husband’s family
– learn to speak and understand (even read and write) all of the languages and dialects that her husband’s family use
– learn the traditional ways of celebrating holidays
– learn how to socialize within the norms of that cultural group in situations where that may be required.
It is almost always a one way street in the opposite direction. In fact, I see more white men (still not many) learn more about their Asian wife’s cultural background than the other way around (ie, white women learning about their Asian husband’s background).
I am one of the ones who had to reconcile the gulf between the Deep South USA and southern China (still doing that today, as well as with the urban East Coast and black suburbs), I think when my grandparents were still alive, my mother made some initial attempts to deal with this, eg,
– learning how to cook from her mother-in-law
– attending Cantonese classes with me as a child (although this was not my father’s family’s dialect) – she dropped out after a couple months
– learn some basic ideas about holidays, but then never really practiced them
but afterwards, she claimed it was not her responsibility to do any of that.
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@Solitaire,
Sorry, I typed out the response to Sharina before I read your response. I hope that it was not interpreted as any opinion about you. That is my own feeling.
I think it would be different if you had kids. In that case, you are not doing it for your mother-in-law, but for your kids. Mother-in-laws can be irritating to many daughter-in-laws, and possibly one reason why some Asian women do not want to marry men from their ethnic group.
I think it helps kids, because they can then recognize that they are a healthy combination that both parents support. If both parents are pushing their kids to identify more as white, and the kids find that they do not experience that out in the field, it creates some major psychosocial conflict in the kids. Boys with white fathers may be affected worse of all due to the degree of Asian male dehumanization and emasculation in US society.
One thing you are doing that is terrific is learning more about the experience of Asian Americans and Eurasian Americans (or other Hapa combinations). Again, that would be more helpful in raising kids rather than dealing with in-laws.
If it is any consolation, I got involved in a Filipino cultural group in New York, had Filipino roommates and neighbors and made a very earnest attempt to learn Tagalog, to the point that I could watch Filipino movies and TV without subtitles. I learned it better than my Filipino-American godmother and could speak to her relatives from Pampanga in Tagalog (she couldn’t quite do it). It can be done. (I still am working on the other dialects – give me time :P)
The sze-yap (Siyi in Mandarin) dialect of 4 counties west of the Pearl River Delta, now all part of the Jiangmen prefecture. I have visited there about 5-6 times.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siyi)
The representative version is of Taishan city (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taishanese).
The vast majority (maybe 90%) of pre-1965 immigrants came from this region, and they and their descendants still made up the majority of Chinese-Americans until almost 1990. They still make up about 1/3 of Chinese Americans.
Over 10% of Hong Kong has origins in this region, but I found they abandon use of this as soon as they settle in HK. The ones in the USA tend to maintain it more in the 2nd generation.
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@Solitaire and Jefe
Thank you both for saying that. I was a bit nervous about how it would come off. I didn’t want it to seem as if I was being pushy.
@Solitare
Yikes. I just don’t understand your in-laws. I mean of course it is not for me to understand, but the things they do are just hateful. You are trying, which is more than I can say for some chicas I know who are in interracial marriages.
@Jefe
“she claimed it was not her responsibility to do any of that.”—As a parent, I think it was her reaponsiblity. From my perspective in making the choice to marry out I feel a parent should also make the choice to learn the culture they married into. Maybe it is just me, but it helps the kids be more solid in their identity. Understand they are both not one or the other. Million dollar question is….how do you get society to accept that?
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@Solitaire
I hope you don’t take this in the wrong way, but it may have changed if you had had any kids. As soon as grandchildren are in the picture, some in-laws take an about turn in their behaviour. Because at that point, you could have the most say in how much the kids get influenced by the grandparents, and at that point, you become more of an ally than a foe.
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@Sharina
This was part of the conflict between me and my mother. I thought it was her responsibility. She disagreed. When I got in my 20s, I had more control over what I could get exposed to.
At the same time, she would tell me that I know as much about white southern culture as her brother. The truth is that I always felt very alienated from it. I got to the point of looking at it as an interesting cultural phenomenon, not something that I identify very closely with.
They don’t. That partially explains the growth of the multiracial activist movement since the 1990s.
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@Sharina,
I need to clarify something.
My mother did make a concerted effort to learn – cooking, attending classes, etc. But she mostly gave it up after my grandparents passed away. By that time, she started thinking about how to get away from my father and eventually divorce him, so the other stuff became unimportant to her.
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@ sharinalr
“Yikes. I just don’t understand your in-laws. I mean of course it is not for me to understand, but the things they do are just hateful.”
Thank you. It’s good to get outside validation because it helps me not to beat myself up that maybe I just haven’t tried hard enough.
Not to play into stereotypes, but I have come to understand that their style of parenting is not that unusual for Asian immigrants. They could actually be much, much worse.
They could be better, too, though. The stereotype doesn’t hold true for everyone.
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@ jefe
“Sorry, I typed out the response to Sharina before I read your response. I hope that it was not interpreted as any opinion about you.”
“I hope you don’t take this in the wrong way, but it may have changed if you had had any kids.”
No worries on either account. You may be right, or they may have used it as just one more thing to criticize us about, raising their grandchildren all wrong. I have no idea which way it would have gone.
“Mother-in-laws can be irritating to many daughter-in-laws”
You’re not going to believe this, but I get along with her 1000 times better than my father-in-law.
“and possibly one reason why some Asian women do not want to marry men from their ethnic group.”
I think there’s validity to that, especially when you consider the low status traditionally held by daughter-in-laws in some Asian societies.
I agree that a lot of this is for helping the kids to adjust. He and I both feel, and have felt for a long time, that even if outside society is going to identify mixed-race people as one race, it’s essential for them to feel connected to both (or all) sides. That’s one reason I hate the “pick only one” race categorization forms: it’s asking someone to choose between their mother and their father.
At this point, since there aren’t any kids to consider, I think it’s more a matter of my agreeing to keep whatever elements of his culture he wants to retain. So, for instance, I now take my outdoor shoes off as soon I walk inside the house. And learning about Asian American culture, history, experience, etc., helps me to understand him better and benefits our relationship.
We both can fix some pretty mean Filipino food, if I say so myself. There are other ways to learn and other people to learn from. The problem isn’t so much keeping the cuisine, it’s that we don’t have the family recipes. Some stuff just isn’t quite how his mother made it, and we don’t know what the missing ingredient is.
The language . . . Jefe, I’m afraid this is going to sound like an excuse, but I haven’t done much about learning it because he hasn’t yet, either. We’ve talked about it off and on, but . . .
The thing is, when he started kindergarten up in the Bay Area, the school told his parents if they wanted him to do well, they should only speak English to him and only let him speak English.
And his parents did it.
And he lost his first language.
Mostly I blame the school, but I don’t know exactly *how* his parents went about keeping him from speaking Ilocano, whether there was punishment and physical abuse involved. Even if there wasn’t, just the idea of suddenly forcing a five-year-old to stop using his mother tongue–of course there’s the potential for significant psychological trauma. I have reason to believe that if he/we ever do start studying the language, it may bring up all sorts of deeply repressed sh*t for him. If he doesn’t ever want to deal with that, in my opinion he doesn’t have to.
“how do you get society to accept that?”
“They don’t.”
You are perfectly welcome to call me naive, but I think possibly some day society will. Maybe not in my lifetime, but then I never thought I’d see same-sex marriage legalized or an African-American president in my lifetime, either.
“The vast majority (maybe 90%) of pre-1965 immigrants came from this region,”
Do you know the reason for that, as in what was going on in that specific region which led to so much immigration? (I feel like I should know this, it’s probably in Strangers from a Different Shore, but I can’t remember.)
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@ abagond
I’m going offline for the night. From what I could tell from a search of your site, Maria W. Stewart does not appear to have been the topic of a previous post.
I just looked at the Wikipedia entry on her. It is horrible, although it does give good sources in the references. There are links to better short bios further down the first page of Google results.
I was hesitant to choose her because I’m worried that at first glance you won’t think much of her accomplishments. It is difficult for us modern folks to understand that women were restricted from taking any part in public life during that era. What she did seems normal and unremarkable to us now, but back then it was a revolutionary act.
Maria W. Stewart was not just the first African American woman to shatter these barriers–she was the first American woman of any race. What she did was absolutely ground-breaking. Yet she is so little remembered that credit for being the first is often attributed instead to two white women (the abolitionist Grimke sisters).
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Someone commented upthread that most issues concerning race are seen as Black&white.
After reading the most recent comments on this post all I have to say is, ‘Thank you’ to all those who have exposed the dynamics of race concerning Asians in America.
I have a few male Asian friends (think: Han in the ‘Fast and Furious’ movies (Cool guys with game who seem comfortable in any situation who are seen as equals.) and Devon Aoki’s character in the same movies (hot chicks). I just always assumed that they felt as equal as anyone else.
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@Solitaire
Yes, it does sound like an excuse, and one that I don’t really buy too much. Because why does the decision of what you do have to depend 100% on him? There is nothing stopping YOU from learning Ilocano and Tagalog. If he decides at some later date that it might be significant for him, then he can do it then. At the very least, in the meantime, it will help you understand more about Filipino culture and history and the history and society of Filipinos and Filipino-Americans in the US.
Besides, Tagalog is the 5th language of the US. There should be nothing stopping any American from learning it any more than learning Spanish or Chinese or French. I made a very serious effort to learn Tagalog, and I do not have ANY Filipino ancestry or spouse and have never lived there (although I have some kinship relationship with people who do). I plan to increase my knowledge of other Philippine dialects too (now I am trying to learn more Cebuano).
I got repressed from learning my mother tongue too, but I did a turnabout when I was a teenager, initially even in defiance of my parents (but later they welcomed it). I really wouldn’t worry about those repressed feelings (for you at least, as they are not YOUR repressed feelings) – sounds more like just another excuse (one that I would label as “lame” – sorry for that – please understand that it is not a personal statement). In fact, seeing you do it can help him overcome them.
I found that the concept of multiracial people does exist in Hawaii. There, “Hapa” is more a descriptive term rather than a political term. But they never had a history of Jim Crow which forced people to accept racial categories, so they do have a concept of people holding multiple identities simultaneously.
The other model found in the USA is one found among some Native Americans. Focusing more on kinship, rather than racial identity, it is possible to hold Native American identity and be almost any racial composition. The concept also exists in Hawaii among Native Hawaiians – where you see a multitude of combinations at the Kamehameha school. But I don’t see how it could work in an otherwise race-based society like the mainland USA.
I suppose that there is a simple explanation and a more complicated one. We can try a simple one first.
Simple answer: the first Chinese to the USA and Canada came from that region and more followed later based on stories and tales from the first migrants. Chinese from other areas migrated to other places (eg, the ones who went to the Philippines are primarily from the region around Xiamen in Fujian province).
Mid 1800s – In addition to hard times and sporadic famines, three wars in southern China caused unrest which exacerbated the situation
– the second opium war
– the Taiping Rebellion (Civil War)
– the Punti-Hakka clan wars
The first two caused people to flee their villages in the southern coastal provinces, which explains why nearly all overseas Chinese in the 19th century and early 20th century came from Guangdong and Fujian provinces.
The latter was particular centered in the Taishan county and Sze-Yap region of the Western Pearl River delta during (1855-1867), exactly during the time which middleman seized them and sent them into debt bonded indentured labour. Some were even captured and sold into slavery. The Cantonese term is “selling piglets”. Some villages were completely cleared out of their young men. Tales of the “Golden Mountain” caused most of them to focus on going to America.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punti-Hakka_Clan_Wars)
Nearly every family in Taishan county (and neighboring Kaiping county) has relatives that went to USA or Canada. Most have lost touch, obviously, after several generations have passed.
On my last trip to Brazil 8 years ago, I encountered many Chinese in Sao Paulo and Curitiba who came from this region in Guangdong Province. So shocked to hear that dialect spoken on the streets there. But lo and behold, in my last 2 trips to Taishan city, I saw advertisements all over the place to help people complete application procedures to migrate to Brazil or to learn basic Portuguese (in addition to English). –> so another reason to try to maintain that dialect — when traveling in Brazil.
Have you ever wondered why the majority of the early Filipino migrants to Hawaii were Ilocano?
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@Kiwi
Have there been many white males in WMAF relationships on this blog?
The type of white men I saw in Asia chasing women were the worst kind. Bitter men who ranted about how feminism had destroyed Western women and how they were looking to find a nice ‘feminine’ Chinese woman.
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Is not the “submissive Asain women” a stereo type. In my interactions in LA specially with family owned business I’m never seen that. Their family owned businesses were run like any other family owned business regardless of race. Nor did I ever get that vibe when I have conversations with Asain women.
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@MJB
In my mind, it is complete fiction.
I think a lot of white men go to Asia because they’ve been unsuccessful in the Western dating pool.
They then look for a reason to justify it.
My Chinese female students were anything but submissive. In fact, they were hard working, independent and self-reliant.
China is home to two-thirds of the world’s self-made female billionaires.
Link: (http://qz.com/529508/china-is-home-to-two-thirds-of-the-worlds-self-made-female-billionaires/)
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@ Solitaire
Maria W. Stewart it is! I will do the post in March.
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@ abagond
Thank you!
I’m so excited. This is about the best prize I’ve ever won!
Although I would have also accepted a used car in good condition… 😉
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@ jefe
I’m going to go backwards. I’ll respond to your comments about language at the end.
To the best of my knowledge, Ilocano migration to Hawaii was spurred by economic depression in the Ilocos region caused by changes introduced after the American takeover. The region went from being (semi?)-industrial to labor-intensive agriculture, with much of the crop being raised for import and little left over for the Ilocano laborers, resulting in widespread hunger and poverty. As with the Chinese in Guangdong, once the first Ilocano immigrants began writing home (and sending money), many others followed.
That’s what’s in the history books. I have heard individual Ilocanos blame the Tagalogs as well, claiming that Tagalog leaders influenced the Americans in the decision to ruin the prosperity of the Ilocos region as part of the ongoing conflict between Tagalogs and Ilocanos. I have no idea if there’s any truth to this claim, nor do I know if the belief is widely held among Iocanos.
Thank you for your explanation of the Chinese immigration pattern. I don’t think I’ve ever even heard of the Punti-Hakka clan wars before, so that was an interesting read.
Your points about Hawaii were on the nose. I guess I’m holding out hope that someday the continental US will no longer be a race-based society. Like I said, not expecting to live to see it.
Ok, onto language.
First let me say that your points are well-taken. I may sound like I’m being defensive in what follows. Probably I am to some degree, but I’m also trying to better explain my personal situation as it stands. This in no way should be interpreted as any over-arching belief on my part. I think it is important for people, especially Americans, to learn more than one language.
As you read this, please also keep in mind that we have no children. If I were raising half-Ilocano children, I would definitely want them to learn at least Iocano, if not Tagalog as well.
What is stopping me from doing it on my own:
When I said I have reason to believe he’s dealing with a lot of repressed sh*t, it is because he has had panic attacks triggered by the realization that he subconsciously understands both Ilocano and Tagalog. I have seen him go into full-blown emotional meltdowns.
He’s not alone in having this kind of PTSD around his native language. We’ve both heard similar stories from Native Americans concerning their elderly relatives who survived the boarding schools.
His parents are exactly the type of people who would beat a five-year-old for not knowing how to ask to go to the bathroom in English, and then beat him again when he peed his pants.
I believe he should deal with this emotional trauma, even if he never (re)learns either language. I’ve encouraged him to seek counseling for it. I can’t force him to do so.
You’re correct that I can still choose to learn one or both languages on my own. But based on previous experience, I can’t listen to language tapes or watch Pilipino TV shows while he’s around without the risk of triggering a panic attack. I wouldn’t exactly have to hide it from him, but I’d have to be careful about when and where.
And when am I going to use it? I can’t with him, nor with his family for the same reason. We don’t have children and at this point are unlikely to ever have any.
The Filipino community here… the ones involved in the big community social events are entirely immigrant. I could use it with them at those events we attend, but I’m not about to because they already put my spouse through too much grief over issues of language.
He already finds these events emotionally stressful enough as it is. He is not the only American-raised Filipino adult in town, nor the only one working at the university. He is, however, the only one in the entire town who has ever gone to any of the social events put on by the immigrant Filipino community.
When we lived in Cailfornia, he absolutely refused to go to similar events or join similar organizations. I didn’t understand it at the time. His reason was: “I got enough of that cr@p growing up.”
I knew he didn’t mean the culture. He’s very proud of being Pilipino. He loves working on Filipino-American Culture Night with his Filipino-American college students. He’s taught them traditional dances, including the coconut dance which many initially find embarrassing.
When we left California and moved to the university town where we now live, he decided the town was small enough and he was known too well due to his position at the university to entirely avoid the immigrant Filipino community’s social gatherings. And that’s when I learned what he meant by cr@p.
They don’t understand why he doesn’t speak any Filipino languages. They don’t understand why he doesn’t know intricate details about his father’s village, a place he has visited exactly once, as a teenager in 1979. They don’t understand why he doesn’t know much about the popular singers and actors in the PI. And so on and so on. He is continually explaining himself and defending himself to them, which is something he already has to do out there in the white community all the time. He doesn’t get any respite from it at the Filipino community events.
And every time, at least one person decides to chastize him about not being a good Filipino, about how terrible he is for “never bothering” to learn his own language, and accuses him of being ashamed of his culture.
Every year he has to prevent the members of this same community from taking over the planning of the university’s Filipino-American Culture Night from his students. Every year they get angry that the kids are incorporating rap songs like “Bebot” by the Black-Eyed Peas, that they’re peforming dance routines that combine modern dance and hip-hop moves with traditional Filipino dance.
(As an aside, this kind of thing happens with every student organization that consists largely of children of immigrants. The Filipino one is just where it hits him very personally. The hands-down winner for intergenerational drama so far is the South Asian American student group.)
If I started speaking Tagalog with this town’s Pilipino immigrant community, it would undermine his own position with them. It would turn into: “Oh, your white American wife speaks it, what’s wrong with you?”
So who is there left for me to speak it with?
I could use it to read works written in the PI, but English has such predominance there that many of the works are written in English to begin with. That may sound like an “ugly American” excuse. I guess what I mean is, if we were talking about, say, Cambodia, it would make more sense to learn the language for that reason alone. There is such a wealth of English-language material being produced in the PI that it is easier for someone like me to educate themselves.
I expect that you learned Tagalog although you had no personal ties to the language because something about it interested you. This is the same reason my spouse learned Mandarin Chinese and I learned medieval Icelandic, the same reason his dissertation was written on Native American education instead of an Asian American topic.
Additionally, I would point out that there are only so many hours in the day, and I have to make decisions about what would best help me to understand and assist him. His students are the closest thing we have to children, and they are incredibly diverse. Any time I would spend learning Ilocano is time I could better spend learning about the issues faced by his LGBTQ students of color, or the correct protocol to follow at the annual university powwow, or learning “Lift Every Voice and Sing” by heart, or reading the Koran, or memorizing the names of the Divine Nine (although I absolutely refuse to waste my remaining brain cells on learning the white greek organizations).
I also would remind you that I’m my own person with my own career, my own interests, and my own hobbies. If I want to spend my evenings learning about container gardening or reading the latest history of the women’s suffrage movement instead of studying Tagalog, does that make me a bad wife?
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@Solitaire,
Thank you for sharing your stories.
When I learned again about how the Iroquois moved into Algonquian territories in the mid-Atlantic, I thought of the Punti-Hakka situation in Guangdong province. Except that by mid-19th century, there were ships that could cargo people across the Pacific.
Thank you for sharing also about your husband’s situation and your predicament with it. As you said, if you had had had kids, this issue would have been raised to the forefront. In the meantime, it has been put on the back burner, simmering out of sight, out of mind. I think this is not only unfortunate, but perhaps unhealthy as well. I hope that one day one may deal with that simmering pot on the back burner. Given what you told me, it sounds much more important than ALL of those other things you mentioned.
It also sounds like your husband spent much of his young adulthood trying to avoid much of that Filipino stuff. So, I think I understand it very well, as my father did the very same thing with the Chinese community. I think that explains part of the reason he liked to hang out with Filipinos. By the time I was a teenager, I started having impact on him and maybe 10 years later, he started to take a different attitude.
The USA has had too long of a history of forced assimilation. We had Indian boarding schools in the 20th century to accomplish that very mission.
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@Solitaire,
Actually, I do have some personal ties that I hope to rekindle.
As I said, my godmother is Filipino-American and her family is almost like my family, esp. since both my parents passed away. Also, the sister of my grandfather (my great Aunt) was sent to the Philippines to be the wife of a Chinese-Filipino there. My father told me he met his Aunt and cousins once from the Philippines. I have never met them and our families have lost contact.
Also, I lived with Filipinos for many years, as well as had Filipino neighbors and I go to the Philippines a few times a year. I think my interest in it goes well beyond just general interest.
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@ jefe
“When I learned again about how the Iroquois moved into Algonquian territories in the mid-Atlantic, I thought of the Punti-Hakka situation in Guangdong province. Except that by mid-19th century, there were ships that could cargo people across the Pacific.”
That’s a really interesting observation, and a similarity I wouldn’t have thought of.
“The USA has had too long of a history of forced assimilation. We had Indian boarding schools in the 20th century to accomplish that very mission.”
One of the very interesting things he discovered in the course of researching his dissertation was that in the first years of the 20th century, there were suddenly Filipino children on the enrollment lists at the Carlisle Indian boarding school. Apparently the Americans were playing with the idea of treating the Filipinos the same way they had the Native Americans. Perhaps not a coincidence that the Buffalo Soldiers were among the troops sent overseas to fight that war.
“Given what you told me, it sounds much more important than ALL of those other things you mentioned.”
I fully agree. It is not my decision to make, unfortunately. I have tried to persuade and will continue to do so.
“It also sounds like your husband spent much of his young adulthood trying to avoid much of that Filipino stuff.”
He’s always liked the food (well, not balut) and the dancing and the songs and the literature and the history. What he didn’t like was being judged, misunderstood, and berated by the adults, and it frustrates him that it’s continuing even now. He’s at an age where some of the immigrant Pilipinos taking him to task are young enough (early 30s) to be his kids.
Also, he grew up in a multi-ethnic, multiracial neighborhood, and he has a strong preference for being around a wide diversity of people. The group we ran with in grad school was about equally divided between international students and American students of all racial backgrounds and from all parts of the nation.
So, yeah, not quite the same as your father, but I wouldn’t be surprised if your father didn’t have similar reasons for distancing himself from the Chinese community and hanging out with the Filipinos instead.
“I think my interest in it goes well beyond just general interest.”
Sorry, I did remember about your Ninang, et al. I was responding more to this part: “I made a very serious effort to learn Tagalog, and I do not have ANY Filipino ancestry or spouse and have never lived there” which seemed to me to at least imply the argument that having a personal connection isn’t important to the decision to learn a language. Or perhaps an argument that you had learned it with less reason to than I have, so I ought to get off my butt and get to it. 🙂
The thing is, if I decided to pick up another language right now, and chose entirely from my own personal interest, it would either be Dine or Ancient Egyptian….
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@Solitaire,
I think that a factor is that you did not have kids, therefore made the decision to forgo facing these things forever. It sounds like your husband channeled it to serving others while ignoring his own demons.
I am afraid that he might see me as someone who could be perceived as “berating” him too, although more in the context of facing those demons. He sounds actually very very much like how my father was. By my teens, I figured out it was related to internalized racism (a new term I learned at that age).
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@ jefe
There is a great deal of wisdom in what you say.
I think, too, the way in which he has chosen to serve to some degree has to do with his demons.
He definitely has chosen to use whatever means are in his power to shield and protect his students from the same type of experiences whenever possible.
Which may seem somewhat hysterical until you consider he’s been in the position of helping a sophomore to file restraining orders against her family so that she won’t be forced into an arranged marriage.
It isn’t always with the children of immigrants, either. He’s had a trans student come back from break early covered in bruises from where her father tried to “beat the gay out” of her. More restraining orders ensued.
He’s always very careful to cultivate a good relationship with the police, and he’s never once filed a complaint when he’s been profiled. When I asked him why, he said, “I’m saving that for my students. If I complain every time I’m profiled, the police won’t take me seriously when I have to go to bat for a student in a similar situation.”
“I am afraid that he might see me as someone who could be perceived as “berating” him too”
I’m not sure about that. I think there are a number of areas where you’d find commonality in your experience as Asians growing up in the US.
One big difference that I think I see is you’ve concentrated a great deal on international diversity. You’ve lived overseas for many years and traveled widely and have an almost “citizen of the world” outlook, as far as I can tell. He has focused much more on domestic minorities within the US.
If I’m understanding you correctly, you would emphasize the importance of being multi-lingual in a diverse global society. You would also argue that retaining the language of one’s motherland helps to foster a strong sense of identity in the face of a racist American society. He would not disagree with either point. But he would also insist that minorities who do not speak their language of origin have just as much claim to their culture and the authenticity of their experience as those who do.
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@ jefe
I just realized I didn’t get the full import of your statement:
“I am afraid that he might see me as someone who could be perceived as “berating” him too, although more in the context of facing those demons.”
Well, yes, he really should do that, but in my personal opinion this is going to require counseling, and it’s not possible to force someone into that when they’re not ready.
I understand what you mean about internalized racism. It’s certainly a term he’s well aware of, and there may be some of that at play. Definitely it was racism that led the school to advise his parents to stop speaking the language at home.
But the sense I get is it’s more to do with the after-effects of abuse. He’s got all sorts of mental blocks protecting his conscious self from the knowledge that he knows much more of the language than he thinks. English is safe. You don’t get punished for English. Ilocano isn’t safe. Tagalog isn’t safe. Am I understanding what those people are saying behind me? Oh, it must be English then, it can’t possibly be Tagalog, because I don’t know Tagalog. I’m a good boy, I’m safe, no one’s going to hurt me.
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@ jefe
@ all
I apologize for the length of these comments.
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@Solitaire
I am arriving at the airport so I will not quote you first to save time.
I tried the domestic minority route. I was an officer in the Asian students club @ university and did Asian American studies classes. I volunteered at the service centers in Chinatown. Later I participated in a Filipino cultural ensemble in NYC.
I spent my early childhood in a chinese hand laundry. My family and our house got attacked when we integrated the neighborhood. My Aunt launched Asian American Heritage Month for the nation.
I tried to be more acceptable to white people growing up but got bullied weekly, so turned to something else for psycholgical support – learned chinese again (later japanese & Tagalog). By then my white Alabama grandparents had written me off as hopeless and a shameful disappointment.
I worked in a chinese restaurant for 4 years and attended a chinese church.
But at every turn, Asian Americans wrote me off as not having Authentic Asian American experience, despite having very integral and more actual experiences than they. Meanwhile, all the neighborhoods I grew up in had become majority black. It would not be easy to go back there.
I finally came to the feeling that there was nowhere for me to go, no community I could participate in, so finally I picked up and went overseas. I have never felt the desire to go back to the USA. Better to be a perpetual foreigner overseas than one in my home country.
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@ jefe
I did not intend my remarks as criticism of you, your life, or the path(s) you have taken.
You have had a rough road. You’ve had very authentic Asian American experiences, yet they’ve been invalidated just because you don’t look Asian enough.
I don’t know if this will be any consolation, but even though he is full-blooded Ilocano, over all the years I have known him, he has frequently spoken about feeling isolated, alone, without a true community. Even when we lived in California where there is a substantial Asian American population. He never has felt accepted either, although for different reasons.
Asian Americans are only part of the domestic minorities he works with. His office covers all the different racial groups, all the minority religions, the LGBTQ community, and people with disabilities, plus shared oversight of the women’s center. That is the route he has taken, not immersion into the Asian American community.
He didn’t originally intend to go into this career. When we met, he was planning to work and live in Beijing and hoped to travel extensively. He often regrets that he didn’t follow that path.
I think both of you have eaten a lot of bitterness, sometimes in different ways but perhaps sometimes also from the same bowl.
It’s very late here and I’m headed for bed. I wish you a safe flight.
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jefe
In that case I must say I understand your mother’s position. She tried, but in some cases once you decided to leave the man then you also decided not to raise your kids to his culture. She may have wanted you guys to be raised and viewed as white like her.
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Another thing that I have been meaning to ask, is it possibly a form of protection? Someone once posted an article or maybe their experience on how marrying a white man affords them their privilege and protection. Is it possible that Asians are looking at it that way?
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Hawaii (well, at least in my personal experiences – I went to BYU on Oahu in Laie) was a different experience for me. ‘Hapa’, ‘Haole’ etc. were terms I heard when describing most mainland people but most Tongans, Fijians, and mostly Samoans just called me ‘brahda’ or ‘brah’ as most assumed that I was just another Samoan raised in California (even though I am not even remotely Samoan) They’d speak to me in pidgin but I had no idea of what they were saying.
That my girlfriend was one of the hottest Samoan girls on the island caused resentment from some but acceptance by others.
When I was dating a blonde Italian girl I was treated more like a tourist.
The local dogs even seemed racist. Once, while walking from the movies back to campus, a pack of dogs began to bark and run at us. As I turned from the group of guys and ran in another direction the dogs left me to chase the Haoles. As I stood amazed, a woman on a porch told me that, ‘da’ dogs don’t like da’ haoles, brahda”.
The cities seemed more white, Chinese and Japanese while the countryside seemed more Polynesian.
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@ sharinalr
Or maybe she decided that was her ex-husband’s responsibility, not hers.
There is so much pressure on a woman in an interracial relationship to learn her husband’s ways. This is true whether he’s majority or minority. For example, Asian women married to white men would be expected to learn how to make his foods from his culture. Rarely does this expectation flow the other way.
I have had many, many people, of all races and backgrounds, ask me if I learned to cook Filipino food. Hardly anyone has asked my spouse if he knows how to cook his own traditional cuisine.
To date, after almost 30 years, the number of people who have asked him if he learned to cook my traditional cuisine?
Zero.
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@ sharinalr
To clarify:
I don’t know jefe’s mother, and I have no idea what her thoughts and reasons were.
But I could see where a woman in that situation might decide the responsibility of passing on her ex-husband’s culture belonged to her ex-husband.
A woman in that situation might also believe that her ex-husband could do a much better job of passing on his culture than she possibly could.
Depending on how acrimonious the divorce was, a woman in that situation might also not want to remain immersed in a culture that reminded her too much of her ex-husband.
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@Solitaire
“Or maybe she decided that was her ex-husband’s responsibility, not hers.”—That could very well be true. I agree.
It is odd that even though we are coming into a new age, things don’t really change that much for the women. Most of us still give up our last name, some give up out old ways and habit to appease our husband and emerge into his family.
“To date, after almost 30 years, the number of people who have asked him if he learned to cook my traditional cuisine?”—-Has your husband learned to cook your favorite dish or any traditional cuisines your family enjoys? Consider me atleast one. 🙂 zero seems so terrible. In all seriousness does he enjoy cooking at all? or is he super traditional in the woman does the cooking type thing?
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@ sharinalr
“zero seems so terrible.”
To me, it says volumes about how sexist our society still is.
Yes, he has learned to fix some. But no one ever expected him to put on an apron and stand next to my mother for hours in the kitchen the way people expect that of me. Everything he’s learned of my cuisine, I’ve taught him.
As far as enjoying: no, he’s not traditional but I was the one who came into the relationship with far more knowledge and experience, so sometimes it’s too easy for both of us to fall into those traditional patterns unconsciously.
We have different strengths and weaknesses, too, so when we cook together, we divide recipes up that way.
He says one of the best days in his life was when I guided him through making his first loaf of bread from scratch. No bread machine: we did the whole kneading and rising routine.
I wouldn’t want to have to make bread that way every single day! But when you’re in the mood, it’s fun.
What about in your house? You’re in a mixed marriage too, and I know you and your husband come from very different traditional foodways.
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Solitaire
“What about in your house?”—-My husband does not cook period. He is extremely traditional and honestly…..sexist when it comes to housework. Even on things he knows how to cook, he will not cook it. I have asked him in the past to learn a few of my favorite dishes, but he made it clear…..he does not cook.
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Oh, geeze. I’m really sorry to hear this.
What about if you’re under the weather? If you’re sick enough that you can’t get out of bed, does he cook? Or at least make the kids sandwiches?
Seriously, when are these men going to start learning how to cook for themselves? They’ve had, what? 5000 years?
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Solitaire
If I am sick he will buy whatever dish I desire. As long as he does not have to cook it. He will make sandwiches for the kids.
“Seriously, when are these men going to start learning how to cook for themselves? They’ve had, what? 5000 years?”—-I wish I knew. In fact I want to know the person who came up with the idea that women should cook and basically do everything while men just make money. I come from a family of men who cook. All of my uncles cook regularly for their families. So for me it is a bit fustrating trying to get him to realize he needs to.
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Solitare said,
“There is so much pressure on a woman in an interracial relationship to learn her husband’s ways.”
That might be less true of American born whites and Blacks.
In my relationship their was no cultural divide. She likes to cook vegetables and I do the meats.
What’s traditional American food anyway ? Hamburgers ? Triple size it ? Most food in America is food culturally appropriated from somewhere else made so white people can eat it. Signs that say “authentic” over their restaurants is code for white people to go eat their. It’s what tourists look for.
The Philippines is a center for Pacific Islander and Asia trade and has been influenced by both Western and Hispanic culture. I understand the cuisine their is diverse with different regions known for specific dishes. Its history allowed for its cuisine to go through a kind of fusion as it absorbed influences from the East, West and Spanish.
I think having your aunts teach you how his family home cooked their food would be the way to go. If you google Pilipino cook books you get words like “classic” and “authentic” which means cook books written for white people.
I live in L.A. and we eat out at places where the food tastes fresh and has a personal touch to it. You can order the same food dish and it will taste completely different depending on the restaurant. The chef is just cooking up his own home cooked food.
My daughter identifies as Hispanic but doesn’t like to speak Spanish because of her accent, poor grammar and the L.A. slang she grew up around that’s “not proper”. She understands but doesn’t want to embarrass herself.
We went on a road trip together to visit her brother. She sang in Spanish and signed (ASL) while driving.
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@ Kiwi
Randy was one too. He repeatedly used his wife to prove there was little racism in the US and therefore there must be something wrong with Black people.
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I completely forgot about Robert Walpole.
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@ sharinalr
“If I am sick he will buy whatever dish I desire. As long as he does not have to cook it. He will make sandwiches for the kids.”
Glad to hear it. I’ve known a few very traditional men who would have expected you to drag yourself out of bed and do it.
In that kind of situation, as long as he’s taking care of you and finding a way to feed himself and the kids, I’m not going to fault him if he doesn’t know how to make a twelve-course meal.
It must be really difficult, though, to come from a family where the men cook into one where they won’t even try.
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@ Michael Jon Barker
“teach you how his family home cooked their food”
Unless that’s the plural “you” above, you completely missed my point 😦
“What’s traditional American food anyway ?”
While you’re correct that there is no over-arching American cuisine, that doesn’t mean white Americans can’t have traditional foodways.
Mine is Southern cuisine, a uniquely American regional fusion of Native, African, and European foods.
There are regional cuisines in New England and the Mid-Atlantic that likewise date back to the colonial era.
I have white friends whose traditional cuisine is Polish, Norwegian, Italian, Greek, Irish, Russian, German, etc., depending on their family’s heritage.
My family most definitely has traditional family foods, with recipes that have been handed down through generations. I don’t understand why everyone expected me to learn to cook pancit but no one expected him to learn how to make hot-water cornbread.
“I think having your aunts teach you how his family home cooked their food would be the way to go. If you google Pilipino cook books you get words like “classic” and “authentic” which means cook books written for white people. ”
While your advice is well-meant, I explained upthread that learning to cook Pilipino food hasn’t been an issue for many, many years. His aunties, regrettably, are no longer with us.
We have cookbooks his cousins sent to us from Manila 25+ years ago. When 50% of the recipes begin “Slaughter chicken; drain blood into bowl and reserve,” that’s a pretty good hint they’re not written for white people!
“The Philippines is a center for Pacific Islander and Asia trade and has been influenced by both Western and Hispanic culture. I understand the cuisine their is diverse with different regions known for specific dishes. Its history allowed for its cuisine to go through a kind of fusion as it absorbed influences from the East, West and Spanish.”
This is true. The PI also was on the Arab trade route before the Spanish conquest. The southernmost part is still predominately Muslim, as is the neighboring country of Malaysia.
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That man is so bad enough to be in jail for the rest of his life.
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@Sharina
No, my mother never pushed us to identify like that. In fact, she had left home and married a man who got her pregnant and freaked her parents out. Even when my brother got enamoured with Alabama and wanted to go to university there, she heavily discouraged him from it, and tried to keep him from going down South. She kept her white identity for herself, but recognized that her kids could never exactly be raised in the culture that she was. She would have been perfectly OK, for example, if we dated Asian, black or Latino people.
However, what she did try to promote was
– respectability politics
– the natural state of white privilege
So, she never pushed or encouraged her kids to identify as white, but did try to teach them the importance making one as acceptable to white people as possible. This is where I disagreed with her, but even that, she was more or less OK with.
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Re: Sharina’s comment
I have some thoughts about this.
In the US, where it is moderately patrilineal, I think that typically, the husband has more impact on how the family relates to the outside community; the wife has more impact on how the immediate household is run. At the very least, the family is known by the husband’s surname, but it usually goes beyond that. Some societies take it much further, such as some in East Asia, where the society is very patrilineal and patrilocal, meaning that the wife not only marries into the husband’s family, but usually goes to live in the area that the husband is from and adopts his family’s customs. The husband’s brothers and parents have a strong influence both on how the family interacts with the community and on how the family household is run.
I think this is one of the reasons why we may tend to see gender disparity in interracial marriage(but only part of the reason — there of course is more to it). When a white woman marries a black man, the kinship concepts are not THAT different from marrying a white man. Her biggest risk is losing some white privilege. Before the 1970s that was a given, but post 70s, she might not lose all her white privilege. Also, white privilege does not quite have the same value as it used to pre-1970s. But as far as the kinship relationships, they are not that different from marrying a white man.
If a white woman were to marry an (East) Asian man, she would have to either make sure that his family (or at least the husband) has already fully adopted White American kinship practices, or that she is willing and able to accept the heavily patrilineal and patrilocal practices that he might carry from his family. This explains why the wife is expected to learn to cook the husband’s family’s cuisine, but not the other way around. Not many white women are willing to do that, esp. if it means that they must give up some white privilege as well.
Of course some Asian men might marry white woman for the express purpose of adopting a more White American kinship system practice (and adopting more of her family’s customs into the household). Another reason might be where the Asian man might be trying to expand his relationships into the white community. For example, his non-Asian colleagues or neighbours might be more willing to socialize with him or visit his home if he brought a white wife with him instead of an Asian wife. A White man would have less impact on his community relationships due to marriage to an Asian wife.
East Asian women are viewed as marrying out of her family and into her husband’s. Marrying a white man (or perhaps even a black man) means that the relationship to the community is determined more by the husband, and she is more free to decide how much accommodation would be done in the running of the household. Both may be perceived as a benefit to her.
Where am I going with this? Well, it might even be more related to this original post.
When I was young, I used to think that the Eurasians with white fathers had a much easier time. They could gain instant access to the white community due to their father’s connections and interactions with it. I felt I could never tap into it that way. Mine were determined by how much my father was accepted into it (which was of course assisted somewhat by the fact that he had a white wife). On top of that, the kinship patterns in my family were more determined by my father, and my kinship relationships with my mother’s family was less developed. (For example, when I was born, my paternal grandfather took me around to show to all of the clan members in both Washington, DC and New York (thousands of people), and invited hundreds of guests to my one-month old banquet. My maternal grandparents would barely let me come into their house (of course that relaxed later albeit only temporarily) and treated my existence as an event that they would prefer was kept quiet and not advertised in their local communities or extended family. )
After getting to know a lot more Eurasians with white fathers, I learned that the experience was different how I imagined it to be. Yes, in their early childhood they may have more access to their father’s community and kinship relationships (meaning relationships with white people) and may grow up with the notion that membership in the white community is a given. But, once they grow up, they realize that it is not. They are not always given a white pass. They might unconsciously seek behaviours to try to regain that white pass they thought they had. It is especially tough on the ones who had white fathers and Asian mothers who dehumanized and emasculated Asian men, or otherwise bashed them.
Eurasians with Asian fathers grow up knowing that that white pass is never given. It must be earned. So, if they choose to integrate more with the white community, it would be just an extension of what their father may have been doing in the first place.
On the other hand, the “Asian” pass is not automatically extended to either one. Given most East Asian’s notion of racial purity (which I think it is stronger than for most white people), they become “foreigners” in most Asian communities. Given the patrilineal focus in most East Asian societies, those with Asian fathers might have a slight edge (eg, due to their Asian surnames), but that benefit is still minimal. Despite their patrilineal kinship practices, race is still very important. In fact, it is somewhat the reverse of the Eurasian man with a white father trying to maintain relationships in the white community.
Except for Vietnam, which is more like East Asia in that regard, that is less true for most of the rest of SE Asia, esp. the Philippines. They seem more kinship based than race based to me, and the Philippines is not so strongly patrilineal as the other ones. For example, many Filipinos keep both their father’s and mother’s surnames in their names. The Philippine population is such an amalgamation of different races and cultures anyhow.
In the USA, race triumphs over kinship. I noticed many commenters here thinking that Holtzclaw selected black victims because he hates black people (like a white person) or that he was some white supremacist trying to put a violent power play on blacks. I agree that he was affected by white supremacism, but I believe he selected black victims because he was heavily affected by his own internalized racism and self-hatred. Rape is a power play, and he was so desperate for that white pass (or had so much angst over his failures on getting that pass) that he used whatever tools he had on his hand to gain a feeling of white power (albeit fleeting). He could not get that feeling of acceptance from white people.
Commenters also thought his white kinship relationships and his fixation on stressing his white community relationship with his victims was enough to gain sympathy with the white community, esp. a white jury. It was not. Even if he allegedly has a fan base which includes white female supporters, I really doubt that it had anything to do with sympathizing with his actual psychological state, albeit that there might be an element of empathy from white people with his desire to be more white (where being more white includes gaining more white social privileges).
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@ jefe
I think you may be angry or upset with me after our last exchange on this thread. If so, feel free to ignore this, not respond, etc.
But I did want to clarify something about my own personal experience, whether for you or for anyone else who may be reading.
You wrote:
“If a white woman were to marry an (East) Asian man, she would have to either make sure that his family (or at least the husband) has already fully adopted White American kinship practices, or that she is willing and able to accept the heavily patrilineal and patrilocal practices that he might carry from his family. This explains why the wife is expected to learn to cook the husband’s family’s cuisine, but not the other way around.”
The vast majority of the people who have voiced their expectation that I learn his family’s cuisine have been white.
The pressure I was talking about has come from everywhere. To this day when I meet white Americans and they find out he is Filipino, the first thing they ask me is “So you learned how to cook all that Filipino food, right?”
My mother is the person who has put the most pressure on me. When his mother was resisting all of my efforts to persuade her to teach me, my mother kept insisting that all I had to do “was put on an apron and follow her around the kitchen and watch how she does it.” Not understanding that I had been physically barred from entering his mother’s kitchen on more than one occasion.
Overall, I found your last two comments very educational and learned a lot from them. Even on this point, I believe you are right in general.
I simply wanted to make it clear that the people I was complaining about were in fact almost entirely of my own race and heritage.
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@Solitaire,
I am not angry or upset. The only that might get me a *little* agitated are broken records I have heard for the umpthousandth time, but even then I am not angry or upset.
I was not saying anything about you or complaining about anything, or about what people should or should not do. I am just trying to make sense of the world, or sense of some of my experiences.
Besides, each individual is going to have a different experience, so it will be difficult to make any generalizations.
But I do think it would have been different for you if kids were in the picture. At least, they would force you to think, or even rethink some things.
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@Solitaire
I think this may be because
– White Americans still have some patrilineal or patrifocal attitudes about family and impose this believe on others.
– they think Filipinos are similar to East Asians, where they believe that that (ie, patrilineal focus) is more expected.
– Filipinos are not so patrilineal to begin with (they are “macho” oriented, but not so patrilineal)
– Filipinos or other Asians might think that your husband has already adopted American kinship practices already, whereas whites might not assume that.
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@ jefe
“Besides, each individual is going to have a different experience, so it will be difficult to make any generalizations.”
This is true. And I think I have made a mistake in assuming some generalities. For example, I haven’t always kept in mind that you are 3rd gen. I am very familiar with the acculturation gap stress between 1st (immigrant gen) and 2nd gen (including 1.5ers). I keep forgetting that isn’t your experience. I usually remember that you are hapa and have different experiences in that respect. But I tend to forget that you are 3rd gen and therefore may see some things in a very different light than my spouse and his friends–who I believe are close to the same age as you but are in a different generational group re immigration.
Related to that, though, it did bother me somewhat when you said he reminded you of your father in running away from his culture. There has never been a time from junior high on that he hasn’t been involved in both Filipino and pan-Asian activities. They just may not have been the same activities you would have chosen. And there are other cultural things he would have loved to learn, but the generation before him was ashamed of those things and the knowledge was lost before he was born.
“But I do think it would have been different for you if kids were in the picture. At least, they would force you to think, or even rethink some things.”
I did not choose to have fertility problems. It is a grief that never goes away.
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@Solitaire,
Sorry to mention the issue about kids. I did not intend to bring up distressful topics. You know, my mother had a hysterectomy at age 27, after having 2 surviving kids. After that, she wanted to adopt a girl (as she had two boys), with specific interest in the Vietnamese Amerasians. She even wrote away to get the information how to do it. However, my father was sternly against it – another bone of contention between my parents that lasted many years. I suppose there are still ways to raise kids.
Re: making generalizations, you are doing the same thing when you are categorizing people according to generational groupings. It can be just as misleading, even perhaps spurious to categorize experience along those lines as well, as I have often found them to be wrong or at least leading to incorrect conclusions.
re: running away from one’s culture, perhaps that is too strong a word. Perhaps I should say distancing one from one’s cultural background. In that case, in well over 98-99% of cases (ie, nearly all) of Asian/ non-Asian marriages that I have ever witnessed (and I personally know literally hundreds, if not thousands of cases), there was a most decided effort to place distance between the Asian spouse and his/her Asian background. I have almost never seen that in the non-Asian spouse to the same degree.
There may be a few exceptions:
– where the Asian spouse was raised in a non-Asian family — in that case, the distance was imposed on the Asian spouse well before the marriage or even dating. (eg, transracial adoptees)
– where the Asian spouse was raised in a environment with few or no Asians outside the family, such that potential Asian spouses were not easily available and the Asian spouse had been so assimilated into the non-Asian environment that such a desire to increase the distance may not have been present (eg, raised in a lily white town (or black/white segregated town) with no Asians around for many miles)
– where the Asian spouse was raised in a very Asian environment, but found themselves cut off from that environment with little prospect of finding opposite sex partners (eg, Asian men in the USA during the Asian exclusion eras). In these cases, they generally did not distance themselves from the fledgling Asian communities even after marriage, as many of the other men were doing the same).
– where the non-Asian spouse is heavily assimilated or acculturated into the relevant Asian community (eg, where the non-Asian spouse had already absorbed the relevant Asian language, customs, social patterns and traditions before the marriage, such that the marriage would not increase the distance from the communities, or perhaps even strengthen them further.
Despite your husband’s continued involvement in Filipino-American and Pan-Asian activities, I do not see anything in all that you have shared so far that indicates an absence of intention to distance oneself from his cultural or kinship background, even at some subconscious level. He certainly was not trying to strengthen his connections to that background. Among his kinship/racial/cultural/political connections, perhaps the least affected were the political ones (which are more in line with the examples you gave).
My father was not completely running away from his background (or, I should say, distancing himself). He maintained his connections to the Asian communities. Otherwise, why would he have me raised in back of a Chinese hand laundry, sent me to Cantonese school in Chinatown or to learn Mandarin at a Taiwanese church, select his Filipino-American friend to be my godmother, or introduce me to work in his friend’s Chinese restaurant? Why would he encourage my brother to join the Chinatown basketball teams? He also did service work for dozens of Asian-owned businesses. What he did do, was place a lower value on those connections. He also placed a lower value on our connections to the black community. The white ones were always perceived to be better.
In my early childhood, I also learned to place higher value on whatever white connections I had, but by adolescence, I re-evaluated that and devalued those connections (because they were creating a lot of problems for me).
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@ jefe
So you don’t consider Filipino dance, cuisine, arnis (eskrima, kali) to be cultural involvement? I’ve mentioned the dance and the cuisine before.
What about marriages in which both are Asian American but from different ethnicities? Do you see complete cultural continuance there?
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@ jefe
“I suppose there are still ways to raise kids.”
I suppose I could say the same thing back to you. You haven’t given any indication here that you have kids that you’re passing your culture down to.
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@Solitaire,
Yes, those are classified as more cultural. It is one aspect of culture. There are others, esp. those related to daily life.
In marriages where both are Asian American, the same thing often is going on. In all likelihood, there will be some distancing on both sides, with more distancing on one of the spouse’s side. It will not be equal. Eventually, some accommodation equilibrium make take hold, but it will be exceedingly difficult for both to be retained intact. The accommodation could even include absorption of practice not related to the traditions of either side.
It is rare, but certainly not impossible, for a non-Asian spouse to continue the kinship/cultural and political tradition of the Asian spouse.
I don’t have kids and it does not look likely (given that I don’t have a spouse either). I don’t always feel good about that.
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You could still adopt.
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@ jefe
You could still adopt.
“Eventually, some accommodation equilibrium make take hold, but it will be exceedingly difficult for both to be retained intact. The accommodation could even include absorption of practice not related to the traditions of either side.”
Yet — if I’m understanding you correctly — you don’t believe this can happen where one spouse is Asian and the other is not?
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It seems like you exceedingly misunderstood me on this point.
Of course it can happen if one spouse is Asian and one is not. I even said as much — the next sentence corroborated that it certainly is possible. I really don’t see any major difference on this aspect if the spouses are of differing Asian ethnicities or if they are of one Asian and one non-Asian ethnicity. Both will accommodate each other as well as the culture of the communities they live in.
What is different is this:
– in Asian / non-Asian spousal relationships, I rarely see the bulk of the accommodation going in the direction of the Asian spouse. Of course it is certainly possible, and may indeed happen in some cases, but it is not that common. What is more typical is a mixed accommodation, with the bulk of it going towards the non-Asian spouse. When it is not going in the direction of the non-Asian spouse, there is less accommodation in general.
– in spousal relationships involving differing Asian ethnic backgrounds, the same thing is happening. It just happens that regardless of which direction the bulk of the accommodation is going, it would be in the direction of one of the Asian spouses (and hence, in the direction of an Asian ethnicity).
Of course this is anecdotal, but I would like to see if anyone has done a more scientific analysis of how this works out in practice.
Re: adoption, I am getting older and less economically capable of that, and I do not think it is even legal where I live. But if circumstances change, I could consider it.
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@ jefe
“It seems like you exceedingly misunderstood me on this point.”
Yes, you’re correct, and I apologize for the mistake. You said it was rare — not completely impossible — for there to be an equilibrium of cultural mixing and accommodation.
“What is more typical is a mixed accommodation, with the bulk of it going towards the non-Asian spouse.”
But how much of this is also due to the surrounding culture? If all things remained the same except we were living in the PI instead of the US, I would think the accommodation would go more strongly towards the Asian spouse.
“Despite your husband’s continued involvement in Filipino-American and Pan-Asian activities, I do not see anything in all that you have shared so far that indicates an absence of intention to distance oneself from his cultural or kinship background, even at some subconscious level. He certainly was not trying to strengthen his connections to that background. Among his kinship/racial/cultural/political connections, perhaps the least affected were the political ones (which are more in line with the examples you gave).”
So in your opinion, what should he be doing differently? Learning the language is obviously on the top of your list, but what else?
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@Solitaire
Equilibrium in no measure implies equal. In fact, it is more likely to be rather lopsided. It only means that it reaches a stage where both sides have reached a temporarily sustainable level of mutual accommodation.
The surrounding culture includes much more than the unrelated people living near you and the people running the local schools and media and government.
You said that you have encountered your husband’s parents, aunts and uncles, siblings, and undoubtedly other relatives and family friends. In order for things to “remain the same” but reversed, you would have to have your parents, your Aunts and uncles, your siblings, all their spouses and children, your other family and friends hailing from the same region of the US and pracitising the same southern white US culture and be present there in the Philippines. In that case, your husband would still have much contact with a white southern US culture even in the Philippines. It may be difficult to quantify how much accommodation would be required to reach an equilibrium in that scenario.
Besides, I find the PI to be very “American” in general. Each time I go to the Philippines, I feel as if I have returned to the US. The most impressive feeling I got was during my very first trip to the Philippines. I was traveling there from Malaysia. The main thing I thought for those couple of weeks was how “American” the Phils. was. Of course, I was mostly in metro Manila on my first trip. After a couple dozen trips to the Philippines from Luzon to Mindanao to Palawan, I realize there is much more to it than just the American veneer that I saw on my first trip.
I am not advocating that he <bshould do anything. Whatever accommodation works best for a family is probably the best one.
If your question instead were, what should he be doing differently if his desire were to skew the accommodation equilibrium more towards strengthening his Asian/Filipino/Ilocano-American connections, then there are many things that could be done.
Above, I mentioned that social connections to a race or ethnicity (or in general, to a “people”) can probably examined into 4 categories, ie, kinship, race, culture and politics.
If it were to be taken to the extreme case, then we would see more of:
Kinship – the family connections would be his, not yours (or, in other words, your prior kinship relationships would be replaced with the new ones that you gained through marriage). Therefore, your relationship to a family would be as the wife (or daughter-in-law, sister-in-law, Aunt, etc.) of one or more of its members. Your own personal kinship relationships that you had before your marriage would no longer be important or even relevant. This is actually the case for women in patrilineal societies or for men in matrilineal societies. If the society is clan based, then you would join that clan.
Race – Any racial difference you have would be minimized or ignored. If this is difficult to perceive at first, then I am sure that you have met some WM/AF couples where the Asian female is not really perceived as being Asian. Through a combination of make-up, dress, and behaviour (and in extreme cases, surgery), they make themselves more “white” at least in the image of the people perceiving them.
If you had kids, they would be taught that their race is their father’s. If this is hard to imagine, then think about how children of black/white couples get labelled as racially black.
Culture – Language is main purveyor of culture and the main instrument of social interaction. Once the language is lost, at least 50% of the culture is lost with it (as all that stuff does not translate directly into other languages). That is why I would heavily encourage people to retain their language if they want to retain their culture. That is also why I advocate Native Americans to resurrect and even reuse their languages (at least partially) if they want to enhance the connection to their ethnic affiliation.
I grew up with a number of kids who were children of Asian war brides. In nearly all cases, the wife realigned her use of language to match her American husband’s. However, I do know of cases of the reverse. I had an ex-colleague in Japan who was a white man from North Carolina who had been living in Japan for about 15 years. He married a Japanese woman, and they used Japanese almost exclusively in the household and their girl was sent to a local Japanese school. Later on, he moved back to North Carolina with his family. By that time, his daughter was a teenager. Even though they lived in suburban Raleigh not far from his “southern” white parents and family, they would still use primarily Japanese at home. I know of other cases.
Language also pertains to dialects or anything that distinguishes one use of speech from another. It does not have to be entirely separate languages. For example, if you spoke the variety of English that was common among white people in Tupelo, MS where your family had lived for 6-7 generations, and you married a man from Hawaii who spoke the common variety of English spoken by Ilocanos on Maui, and then you both moved to Boston, what form of English would be used in the household? Would it make a difference if all of his parents, aunts and uncles, siblings, and as well as all their families all moved to Boston too?
Language is not the only instrument of culture. It also includes things such as religion, food (and the aspect of producing it, not just cuisine), rites of passage, festivals, perceived heritage (on a cultural basis, not political, kinship or racial), as well as modes of interaction within and outside the family, which includes patterns of authority. It can also include arts, music, dance, dress and clothing, literature and esp. folk tales, oral history, tools, pottery, housing, use and sourcing of energy, settlement patterns, kinship patterns, etc. The adaptation to technology and the environment is also part of culture. Culture also includes the reactionary coping methods of navigating a society as a minority.
Cultural adaptation in the USA is not strictly about adapting “white” culture. It could also involve adapting to other cultures not labelled as “white”.
Politics – both you and he would align your politics to favor the political interests of your husband’s, not yours. For example, your stand on racial quotas at universities or racial profiling would have to meet the political interests that your husband would advocate. Your own personal political interests would be replaced with the ones that benefit your husband’s.
—->
Of course, you might perceive this kind of accommodation at the extreme end of the spectrum. But it is conceivable that the equilibrium could be pushed further in that direction. However, if you followed all or most of these things, then it could be argued that your husband was not distancing himself from his culture by marrying you. In fact, it could even be a sign of strengthening it.
I am not sure I should clog up Abagond’s thread with this kind of talk that is not directly related to the topic of the post, except for my belief that Holtzclaw was trying to enhance his connection to white people, in particular white men, (at least in his mind) by raping (ie, exerting a supremacist power oppression) on vulnerable black women, as bizarre as that may sound. It is because he is not exactly “white” that he felt compelled to go to such extreme measures, ones that hurt women and blacks and would land him in jail.
Maybe I will pitch to Abagond about doing a guest post on my take on how people form and maintain connections to a “people”, mainly along the categories of kinship, race, culture and politics.
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“Of course, you might perceive this kind of accommodation at the extreme end of the spectrum.’
Actually, yes. It seems highly patriarchal and not the type of blending of cultures he has always advocated.
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@Solitaire
I diametrically disagree that anything I mentioned was specifically intended to be highly patriarchal. It might only be interpreted as patriarchal as your husband is a man. If a white man decided to realign all his connections to align with his Asian wife, would you say it was highly matriarchal?
Native American tribes tend to be more matrilineal. When white or black men (or in some cases, Asian men) married into them, they often raised their kids as part of the tribe. Would you label that as overly matriarchal?
Also, I presented a somewhat more extreme hypothetical scenario (because you specifically asked me to). It is certainly not necessary to follow an extreme scenario in order to move into that direction (if there is any desire to do that in the first place).
I was not advocating any sort of accommodation. In fact, any kind of accommodation that can reach some kind of sustainable equilibrium is good. Otherwise there will be a lot more strife in the relationship, and for those couples, it sometimes may lead to divorce.
The only thing that I might have been suggesting was that his marriage, in some aspects, represented a distancing by himself from his (kinship/racial/cultural/political) background. Of course part of it is maintained (particularly the political part, and to a lesser degree, the cultural part), but it represented more of a distancing rather than a strengthening.
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@ jefe
“I diametrically disagree that anything I mentioned was specifically intended to be highly patriarchal. It might only be interpreted as patriarchal as your husband is a man.”
All right, so patriarchal was the wrong word. I still was confused as to why you were saying, “Your own personal kinship relationships that you had before your marriage would no longer be important or even relevant” when that isn’t even how his culture works.
“Also, I presented a somewhat more extreme hypothetical scenario (because you specifically asked me to).”
Actually, no. I was asking you to give me concrete examples of areas in which you feel *he* is not practicing his culture, and instead I got an extreme hypothetical scenario about what *I* should be doing differently.
I didn’t express myself clearly before, so I’ll be more exact. You keep saying he is distancing himself from being Filipino. You said he is only engaged politically. I gave you some cultural examples. You responded, “It is one aspect of culture. There are others, esp. those related to daily life.” I wanted to know exactly what you were referring to. I figured language was one, and I said so, and then asked what else: concrete, real life, day-to-day living type examples.
Although in retrospect, I’m also very curious about what ways you think he’s distancing himself in the area of kinship.
“The only thing that I might have been suggesting was that his marriage, in some aspects, represented a distancing by himself from his (kinship/racial/cultural/political) background. Of course part of it is maintained (particularly the political part, and to a lesser degree, the cultural part), but it represented more of a distancing rather than a strengthening.”
Because he married out.
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@Solitaire,
It seems we are hitting some disconnect as you have a certain meaning in mind when you asked questions, and I was replying to a different interpretation to the query.
I had interpreted your query to mean how one may “marry out” of one’s group without it being an act of distancing oneself from one’s prior group. I described what I might envision an extreme example of how that might be done. It was not in the context of any particular racial or ethnic group, or whether the person marrying out was white or non-white or male or female. I was never advocating any position that I personally held.
However, based on your reactions, it appears that your question was more along the lines of your specific and personal case, in particular how your husband could have married out without distancing himself from his “group” and still keep it within your and his value system. Besides that, you apparently interpreted what I said as some kind of instruction or evaluation. It is not.
The answer you are looking for is one that I would need a lot more information first before I could formulate a more thoughtful reply, and besides, it is not any of my business to “instruct” what anyone should do. It was never my intention, and I was only talking in hypothetical terms. That is why I thought it was really strange when you replied that that was something you would never do as you found it very patriarchal. I wasn’t even talking specifically about you.
Even though I have no direct Filipino background, I know a bit about the Philippines and Filipino-Americans. I have been to the Philippines over 25 times, have a Filipino-American godmother, whose families I have been very involved with, have a father who had a large group of Filipino buddies, have a great Aunt that married into a Filipino-Chinese family, participated in a Filipino American cultural group, lived on a street with 30% Filipino neighbors, volunteered in organizations designed to serve Filipino communities and lived with Filipino roommates for many years. I made a serious stab to learn Tagalog and am seriously interested in other Philippine dialects as well. Despite all that, I would never begin to speculate how things might work for your husband. In any case, he and his family had already made tons/heaps of accommodation to living in US society well before he knew you.
For example, the kinship thing. My example NEVER implied that that is how it works within “his” culture. My reply was a generic response regarding how marrying out, regardless of the kinship system operating, would weaken ties with one’s own background (if not in some way distancing). The only way that it would not weaken would be if the other’s out group kinship ties were minimized or made less important.
I don’t know exactly his family kinship culture practice, but I am familiar with what is common in the Philippines and I know it is far from the extreme “patriarchal” model presented above (which was one I never advocated).
My point was basically, when people marry out, there is generally some distancing from one’s original background. In order to avoid that (or even reverse that), one would have to take a more extreme position to accommodation, which may even include behaviour and practice that is not common in one’s original or prior background’s culture. When Asians marry whites in the USA, the accommodation equilibrium tends to be somewhat lop-sided in the direction of the white spouse. It is not always the case, and many different accommodation models could occur. For example, some mixed accommodation could include eating the food form one spouse’s cuisine background more, speaking the language of one spouse’s family more or interacting with the greater community primarily via one spouse’s contacts or taking political positions that favour one spouse more than the other.
I do not know what your husband’s original family practice was exactly. However, it appears that
– considerable accommodation occurred well before you got in the picture (including, for example, his experience in elementary school)
– accommodation that included distancing himself from his original background continued after his marriage as well.
Your accommodation sounds as if it focused more on understanding what your husband experiences, not abandoning or distancing from your own background.
I am not advocating that anything should have been done differently. Any interpretation of “blending” of cultures would be an individual one, and one that each and every couple has to work out for themselves. Had you had kids, even they would have experienced this “blending” in ways different from their parents and different from each other.
Still, in an attempt to relate this concept to the title of this original post (and other related ones, such as Elliott Rodger), I do believe that the accommodation model that the sons experienced was probably a factor that helped to instigate their anti-social behaviour. That is NOT a statement about anything that you personally should do.
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@ jefe
“It seems we are hitting some disconnect”
Agreed.
“you apparently interpreted what I said as some kind of instruction or evaluation.”
Actually, I interpreted what you said several comments ago as a judgment on him.
“That is why I thought it was really strange when you replied that that was something you would never do as you found it very patriarchal. I wasn’t even talking specifically about you.”
You repeatedly used the word “you.” Based on the prior discussion, I didn’t realize it was meant as the generic “you” but assumed it was directed at me personally — especially since your previous comments about learning the language had been directed at me personally.
“My reply was a generic response regarding how marrying out, regardless of the kinship system operating, would weaken ties with one’s own background (if not in some way distancing).”
Thank you for sharing your views.
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@Solitaire,
I was not judging him.
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@ Jefe
I thought we were having a good conversation during much of this thread, and I’m not entirely sure why things went wrong, although I do know how it seems from my end.
When I related some of his experiences with expat groups, you drew a different conclusion than the point I was making, a conclusion I felt was erroneous:
“It also sounds like your husband spent much of his young adulthood trying to avoid much of that Filipino stuff. So, I think I understand it very well, as my father did the very same thing with the Chinese community.”
From this point on, whenever I tried to explain that he wasn’t “trying to avoid much of that Filipino stuff”, you devalued and/or dismissed every example I gave, primarily by categorizing them as “political” or only “one aspect of culture”.
You compared him to your father again: “He sounds actually very very much like how my father was.”
When I objected, you then leapt to your father’s defense, listing all the ways your father had not run away from being Chinese – as if I, not you, had been the one to initially make the comparison.
Since you found some reason to deride every example I gave, I asked what besides the language you thought he should be doing so that I could finally get a concrete idea of what you consider to be sufficiently Asian.
I felt it was beyond insensitive when you began to describe our childlessness as a “decision” that we made “to forgo facing these things forever.” This is most emphatically not the case. I told you the very first time you asked about children that we were not able to have them.
I am fully aware that his family has made accommodations to living in US society. However, I don’t think it is fair for you to pigeonhole the extent and/or type of – much less the reasons for – these accommodations based on very limited information.
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@ Kiwi
I have lurked enough to know the two of you fight all the time, but not enough to know the root cause.
I didn’t intend to take sides in that fight. There have been many times when reading that I agreed with both of you, or conversely had issues with things both of you were saying. I didn’t find myself on one specific side and still don’t particularly want to take sides.
That said, yes, I would be interested in seeing those links.
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@ Kiwi
I didn’t mean to imply that you were asking me to take sides. I only wanted to plainly state my stance for anyone who might read this.
Thank you for the links. I will look them over.
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@Solitaire,
Thank you for your feedback.
I did say a few times that I did not know enough about your specific situation to comment about your individual case. Thank you for pointing out some of the things that pertain to your own situation that might impact any analysis and any comments that I made that might have come across as too personal or judgmental.
At least, when there is some issue on my mind, Abagond has kindly welcomed the submission of guest posts and posted some of them. The advantage of that is that the relevant discussion could be confined to the relevant post. Some of those posts have been on topics that hit me very personally, and they offered an avenue for expression that has been beneficial for me as well. Most have been well received by others.
I would encourage you (and anyone else for that matter) to pitch a topic and submit to Abagond. He has been open to suggestions and has even accepted the post topic suggestion that you proposed to him last month. In that way, it can help organize the discussion around a topic into a relevant post. If you know enough about the proposed topic to draft one yourself, I think he would be thrilled.
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@ Jefe
“I did say a few times that I did not know enough about your specific situation to comment about your individual case.”
Only after misconstruing and mischaracterizing what I said — and then continuing to do so almost immediately afterwards.
You commented on my specific personal situation repeatedly, making assumptions and resisting corrections. The quotes I gave above were only a few examples thereof.
“any comments that I made that might have come across as too personal or judgmental.”
Go back through your comments and see how many times you brought up my hypothetical nonexistent children. Count them.
I want you to never mention my hypothetical nonexistent children ever again. Is that understood?
“If you know enough about the proposed topic to draft one yourself, I think he would be thrilled.”
That topic was my prize. If Abagond wants me to do the work of writing about Stewart, he would still owe me a post written by him on a topic of my choice which was the prize he gave me.
Nice attempt at deflection, though. Guest posts have nothing to do with the problem at hand.
I’m going to say this again: I was never asking for your advice. I was trying to get you to set stated goalposts because you kept shifting them.
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@Solitaire,
Again, thank you for your feedback. I appreciate it. I apologize if it has gone in any direction neither of us wanted to go to.
I think guest posts are somewhat relevant, at least for me. They help me stay focused on a topic at hand instead of steering something awry like what happened here. So, when I brought it up, in my mind, I was not attempting to deflect. However, I am glad that you brought to my attention how you perceived it.
In any case, I welcome your contribution here, and hope that we can have some meaningful interchange on some other topics.
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http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/21/us/oklahoma-city-officer-daniel-holtzclaw-rape-sentencing/index.html
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Sentenced to 263 years. Awesome the beast has been put away.
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May Holtzclaw’s victims find healing and recovery.
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@Mary
I saw that and though “please let me not be dreaming!”
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To Jefe:
I think that is a big factor in this case. Very easy to throw him under the bus as opposed to “full” members of the white club.
FWIW, When I first saw Holtzclaw’s photograph, I thought he was white with perhaps some native ancestry (common in Oklahoma unlike fake Indians elsewhere).
This author as late as last month thought that Holtzclaw was white:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/12/10/the-most-horrific-cop-rape-case-you-ve-never-heard-of.html
When I saw the cops had both GPS and DNA evidence against him, I figured likely a slam dunk conviction.
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(Abagond, please delete the prior posting sent in error).
@Lemmy,
Black female reporters of the Daily Beast might very well label him white as he is reported to have threatened black women with his “white” tools.
I sincerely doubt the white people in the community where he grew up would label him like that. And I doubt he saw himself as just white either. A white wannabe, perhaps, but not just white.
Do you think Elliott Rodger thought of himself as white?
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@ Kiwi
Interesting this aspect of mass psychology.
The individual is BAD and people don’t want to have anything to do with him/her.
But if the individual were GOOD then everybody would see him/her as a cousin!
Just think about an opposite case like the cablanesian Tiger Woods!
Both Blacks and Asian/Asian Americans claimed that he was (is) one of them!
He himself tried to claim a neutral space for himself: the space of cablanesians.
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@munubantu
Yes, if one is seen as bad, then that person is affixed with an outgroup “despised other” label.
In Daniel Holtzclaw’s case, no human, neither blacks, whites nor Asians will dare claim him.
In the case of Tiger Woods, he was claimed by blacks, Asians, Hapas & colour-blind white Americans.
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@ Jefe
You included Hapas in this sentence and I got interested.
I remember you explaining in another thread who are those Hapas and what differentiated them from Asian Americans (or simply Asians).
But this word evoked in me images that I recently got from watching en passant some episodes of Hawaii Five-0 TV series (through DStv satellite TV) where the place and the cast has a lot of Asians or Asian Americans in the main roles.
Besides the question of what the word Hapa really means, I would like to have from you an appreciation of that particular TV series regarding the representation of Asian Americans in general and Asian American men in particular. Do you think that the series uplifts or degrades or is neutral vis a vis Asian Americans? Are there some Hapas in the series? What about the relationship of Hapas there (if there are any) and (racially) pure Asian Americans? Correct? Uplifting for both? And about the Asian American women and their supposed behavior in their relation to White and Asian American men? Correct? Pushing things in the right or wrong direction?Dejà vu?
I would like to ask more questions but I don’t want to anger the owner of this blog with too outlandish questions in this thread.
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@munubantu
I don’t want to steer this thread off track too much. If you want to talk about Hapas, maybe we should steer it to this post
Regarding Hawaii Five-0, I only watched it a few times because it impressed me as a white hero TV show, and an attempt to rehash a theme from the 1960s-70s about a place that most Americans had thought was very exotic at that time. Then, as now, Asians play loyal sidekicks, with whites taking the limelight. This mirrors the bamboo curtain issue in most of US workplaces.
In this case, the white American male protagonist is actually played by a foreign actor. Every time I see this, it feels like a slap in the face, as Asian Americans are often forced to play foreigners.
I had a sickening feeling when I saw the movie “Blackhat”. There, a foreign white person (Chris Hemsworth) plays the white American male hero, yet the Americans all get killed off. The Asian American males also play only foreign non-American cardboard roles and have no love life and all get killed off. The only surviving Asian is female, non-American, who is saved and rescued by the white American male hero.
What is the message? Asian American males are useless sidekicks who are just like foreigners anyhow and who will all die off, so the prize is for the Asian female to get the white American male hero (or a foreigner pretending to be one).
No particular Hapa roles in the Hawaii 5-O show come to mind, but in general, Hollywood flm and TV act as if multiracial people do not exist. Either a multiracial actor is forced to play a monoracial role (eg, Sonja Sohn, Russell Wong, Kirk Acevedo, etc.) or a monoracial role is switched to a mixed race role just so that a monoracial person can play it (eg, Emma Stone in Aloha, Lucy Liu in Charley’s Angels). None of that feels very good.
For some reason, 49 years after Loving v. Virginia, Hollywood still feels very uncomfortable portraying multiracial families and multi-racial people. Recall the backlash against the Cheerios commercial a few years back.
This topic probably should go somewhere else, but I am not sure where.
The Cheerios ad was mentioned here. Maybe that is another good place to discuss this:
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The media is distancing him from whiteness by revealing he is half Japanese. They didn’t do this before or at least as much. Maybe they are ‘subtly’ trying to blame his ‘Asian’ half on these atrocities? When he was sexually assaulting these women he frequently referred to his genitals as ‘white’. He got his ‘Asian wake-up call’ a bit too late.
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His parents probably raised him teaching him he is every bit as good as white people and he saw his father and figured he is entitled to the whiteness his father enjoys (and the one his mother supports).
But he receives a constant reminder (eg, subject to Asian male emasculation episodes or other reminders), that somehow he doesn’t quite have it. Some find a more constructive way to deal with this (eg, decide to go find out more about Hapa identity or about Asian American history or something – maybe not so easy to do in Oklahoma with a white father in the house), but some just snap and do awful things.
If there were a well developed Asian American media, they would also distance themselves too(or not even acknowledge him). No one wants to be associated with people who do evil heinous acts, and in the USA, race is one way to distance oneself from that.
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@sharinalr: Yes, it’s true the piece of sh*t is going to rot in prison for life. I don’t want him dead. He needs to suffer and live and think about what he did to those poor women.
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Henceforth, “Bulanik” is a name that shall not be uttered on this blog, along with the three other Unmentionables.
Any comment that uses her name will be deleted, retroactive to October 1st 2014.
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@Mary
I hope he suffers as well. I want to make sure he is fully aware of what he did. Sad as it might sound, I want someone to do to him what he did to those women.
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3454263/Pictured-Two-LAPD-officers-branded-disgrace-badge-charged-multiple-counts-rape-coercing-women-sex-duty.html
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abc 20/20 did step by step reporting of this case
(http://abcnews.go.com/US/daniel-holtzclaw-jury-decided-send-oklahoma-city-police/story?id=38549442)
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