“Do Asians eat dogs?” is such a loaded question, especially when asked of Asian Americans by White Americans, that it amounts to a racist microaggression, not an “innocent” question about Other Cultures. Much like, “Where are you really from?”
The short answer: Some Asians do eat dogs.
But that answer leaves unchallenged the racism and ethnocentrism of the question:
- “Asians” – this racializes the question. It is like asking about “Black” crime or “Muslim” violence. It stereotypes Asians. It is like asking, “Are White men child molesters?” Any simple answer plays into its racist framing. That framing becomes clear when it is asked of people because they look Asian, not because they know much about Asia.
- “eat” – each human society or culture has its own taboos about what you cannot eat. Those taboos make little sense outside of the given culture. This question becomes ethnocentric, blind to its own culture, when it assumes without question a taboo against eating dogs.
- “dogs” – Many White Americans seem to see dogs as almost human. That makes White Americans different than most of mankind, but the question assumes they are the “normal” ones.
Countries where dog meat is often eaten according to the English Wikipedia:
- Asia: China, East Timor, India, Indonesia, Japan, North Korea, Philippines, South Korea, Thailand, Uzbekistan, Vietnam
- Europe: Switzerland
- Africa: Cameroon, D.R. Congo, Ghana, Liberia, Nigeria
- Americas: US
- Oceania: Australia, New Zealand, Tonga
Note that in most, if not all, of these countries most people do not eat dog meat. But it does take place in each one, even where it is against the law. Most dog meat is eaten in Asia, in China more than anywhere else, but that is true of most food.
Race: Dog meat is eaten throughout the world by all races.
Culture: It is not a matter of belonging to what Westerners call a “backward” culture. Swiss farmers, for example, are known to eat dogs while Comanches considered it taboo.
The Western taboo against eating dogs is just that – a taboo. It has no rhyme or reason to it. Many Westerners eat pigs after all. Pigs are just as intelligent as dogs, if not more so. They too can be pets, as anyone who has read “Charlotte’s Web” knows. Taboos against pig eating in other parts of the world are dismissed as cultural or religious peculiarities. Yet their own taboo against dog eating is never seen that way. Why is that?
The Western ethnocentrism that underlies “Do Asians eat dogs?” becomes clear when you try to flip the question to: “Do Westerners eat pigs?” It does not work, not in the US, because in a Western culture Western practices are made to seem “normal” and “reasonable” and acceptable. Cultural peculiarities come to seem like common sense.
“Asians” make up most of the world. If anyone is “normal”, they are. If anyone should account for their different behaviour, it should be Westerners, not Asians.
– Abagond, 2015.
See also:
- White is right
- What if Sam Dubose had been a beloved lion?
- microaggression
- stereotype
- Asian Americans
- The term “Asian”
538
Disclaimer: I like dogs. I like animals in general.
That being said, this is a racist trope. I mean, having taboos when it comes to food is a pretty universal thing. All groups and cultures have these taboos, though not about the same animals. What White Americans (and not just Americans – this attitude is observed in Europe, too) think when they discuss “dog eating in Asia” is simply a racist view on a cultural practice they, too observe. They eat many animals other cultures would never eat.
The reason an animal may be considered taboo to eat usually falls into one of two categories:
1) Animal is seen as precious, typically as being nearly human. This is the reason some Native American groups have a taboo against hunting (let alone eating) bears.
2) Animal is seen as dirty and polluted to the point that any contact with it should be avoided.
LikeLike
It’s not about meat-eating, though. Someone who doesn’t eat any meat will obviously dislike the idea of eating a dog. It’s about ethnocentric views that those with different food taboos than ours are “strange” (or worse).
There is a good read that touches upon these issues: Bee Larvae and Onion Soup: http://www.veryshortintroductions.com/view/10.1093/actrade/9780192853462.001.0001/actrade-9780192853462-chapter-3
However, the whole “Asians eat dog” issue goes even further, because it’s often used to Other people and portray them as uncivilized and inhumane.
LikeLike
Hm, wait, I am not sure if the link I posted actually covers larvae and onion soup anecdote.
LikeLike
Grow up Lordy, dogs have been and will continue to be eaten regardless of your feelings on that practice. The question at hand isn’t the stoppage of the practice but whether asking Asians about it is racist. Do you have an opinion on asking Asian if about eating dogs?
LikeLike
“It has no rhyme or reason to it.”—This is something I simply do not get. What makes dog meat or cat meat unacceptable to eat more so than say a cow, chicken, or pig? I have also heard the ugly stereotype of Chinese people eating cats.
LikeLike
Lord of Mirkwood,
Those who oppose meat industry in general will probably oppose dog meat industry too. It’s kind of understandable. But that’s not what this issue is about, like, at all. It’s not about harmful meat industry practices or inhumane treatment of animals. It is about targeting one specific group of people (or, more likely, people who are perceived to belong to a group) using racially-charged beliefs/motives.
It’s about the ingrained “Us” vs. “Them” where everything “we” do is normal and universal and objectively true but everything “they” do is bad.
Look, I know it’s difficult (impossible?) to ignore one’s cultural beliefs. I don’t think there is something inherently wrong to see eating dogs as “worse” than eating a pig or a cow, if this is how your culture has taught you. But the trick is to understand it’s the same for people with different food taboos and there is nothing wrong about that.
LikeLike
Another interesting post, Abagond. When you think about it, Europeans/Westerners are the number one dieters of animal flesh (cooked or raw flesh). In Europe, raw beef is a delicacy in the regions of Hungary, Belgium, Croatia, Poland, Switzerland, Italy, German, and Romania. From a medical perspective, most Europeans’s blood type is O, which makes it easier for them to digest animal flesh.
Technically, animal flesh – cooked or not – is eaten by all human carnivores/omnivores. Paraphrasing what Abagond said in the above post, the way White Americans view dog meat consumption is no different than the way some people in the world view pig meat consumption. I stop eating red meat after my bodybuilding career ended. However, I continued eating poultry (chicken or turkey breast only) until I learned about fowls. I learned from Dr. Llaila Afrika and Dr. Sebi that the two-legged fowl is one the filthiest creatures on earth. Fowls eat their own droppings. The fact is the fowl is an important part of the American diet – it’s served at breakfast (chicken sausage or bacon), lunch (chicken salad), and dinner (chicken body parts – leg, thigh, breast, and wing). Your are what you eat and you eat what you absorb.
LikeLike
Lord of M
The point being made is as correct as it is simple. Creating a moral high ground based upon eating certain types of flesh by attributing familiarity to certain animals & distance from others is hypocritical. Period. It only exists as part of a social construct. There is absolutely no way that eating one animal is better or worse than eating another. Its just more of White Americans thinking their way is the default and erroneously grouping all non-White people into one category.
LikeLike
(laughing!) The old saying ‘you are what you eat’ can really be expanded if you know what I mean. (grinning) Seriously no cultural group has the right to look down on others who don’t share their culinary tastes. I for one has always said ‘different strokes for different folks’ and ‘whatever floats your boat’ as long as it isn’t detrimental to self or society. Regarding dog meat I’ve ate it when I was in South Korea when my Korean girlfriend and I stopped for lunch at a very rustic country inn; tastes like gritty beef but it wasn’t bad. It’s horsemeat I don’t like. That stuff is tough!
LikeLike
Yes to all the above but I have to make it clear: White Americans are not the only ones doing it. (White) Europeans (and Canadians for that matter) have the same attitude – it’s not something specific to US whites.
LikeLike
I always thought that was an ugly stereotype
LikeLike
However my cousin said when he was in the military stationed in Korea he saw dogs hanging in shops and they would singe the hair off the dead animal with some type of grass. So apparently in some countries it is a delicacy. I have a Nigerian co-worker who said that eating animals like horse and other animals was no different than eating a cow or a pig or a chicken.
LikeLike
Yeah, asking an Asian that question would be racist.
The thing is, since being in the South I’ve eaten lots of things that I never would have at home.
Personally, most ‘struggle food’ is disgusting to me – from chit’lins to welfare cheese (American ‘cheese’ too) to spam – you can miss me with these.
There are butchers in some areas here that sell rabbit. These butchers are required to keep the feet intact so that the buyer can tell that they are not buying dogs or cats. If the selling of dogs and cats wasn’t at one time common in these areas then the requirement of having the feet intact on butchered rabbits wouldn’t exist.
But I don’t think that it’s only white people who would ask this. I think most American Blacks would ask this question as well. The Gulf area has seen a large increase in it’s Asian population. Many of the shrimp/fishing boats are run by Asians. Many people here go to Asian restaurants (most are located in formerly Black neighborhoods) for their crawfish (another thing that seemed strange to me), shrimp and seafood. The chatter at these restaurants always has a table or two joking about the dog or cat meat in the kitchen.
LikeLike
I am Asian Canadian. I HAVE eaten dogs. There, I said it! Btw, do hot dogs count?
LikeLike
Btw, I’ve never eaten dog meat, but I have known a few relatives (on my Father’s side) in the Philippines who have admitted to eating dog meat.
LikeLike
Oh, and there’s this ridiculous notion, at least where I’m from, that there’s a pet clinic near a Chinese restaurant.
LikeLike
I am not Asian but if I were I would respond “, O yes we do. It is so tasty! You have lost much in your life for having not tasted it! Go along, I’ll make you a good dog fry, you’ll lick your tongue”.
LikeLike
I doubt whether they eat dogs in Uzbekistan since for Muslims dog is as unclean animal as pig is. Muslims do not eat dogs because they are too unclean, while White American do not eat because dogs are too human 🙂 🙂 Each have a different reason but result is the same – canine meat is not consumed.
LikeLike
The above pic of the blonde, white woman cuddling her dog reminds me of all the dog eating comments on pics and videos of Asian people hugging their dogs because, you know, we nasty Asians consume dog flesh.
LikeLike
leigh204
I am Asian Canadian. I HAVE eaten dogs. There, I said it! Btw, do hot dogs count?
lol
Now that I’m in Canada I’ve been offered bison meat. I did not take upon that offer but it was intriguing. Offered in a random restaurant like it’s not a big deal.
LikeLike
I suppose I could see how a person who kisses a dog on the mouth could make such an inane racist statement.
LikeLike
If I would say in the USA that kissing dog to mouth is unhealthy and that the ethnic group which does it and thinks it’s allowable, certainly has some social pathologies 🙂 would it be considered a racist statement?
LikeLike
@Uglyblackjohn
On this point, I will agree with you.
Whereas many white people do in fact do this, and the underlying motivation might be racial stereotyping (a common affliction among whites), it certainly is not a “white” thing.
It may be common behaviour among white people, but it certainly is not uncommon for black people to do this as well. In fact, I have also witnessed Latinos and Native Americans asking this to persons perceived of being of Asian descent, and even a fair amount of Asian Americans (towards people who actually lived in Asia or towards other ethnic groups apart from their own).
Indeed, I would find it to be a common mainstream behaviour across many countries, esp. in Europe and the Americas.
I know Abagond likes to point out racist behaviour by putting a “white” label on things, but in this case, I would find the post to be more fitting if the references to “white” were dropped out (and calling it a “Western” taboo or at least a mainstream American taboo, which also applies to say, blacks).
That is why I wince slightly when I read this wording from the post, eg:
While true (esp. the racist microaggression part), it implies that it is a “white” thing (ie, not only common among whites, but particularly common among whites). I have heard blacks ask this very same question, so in order to encourage both blacks and whites to examine their racist behaviour, it would be counterproductive to label it as a “white” behaviour. It would be just like saying the perpetual foreigner stereotype is a “white” behaviour, when I easily see just as high a proportion of blacks doing the exact same racist behaviour.
While this sentence is also true (the part about being a taboo), how is this taboo a “white American” thing in particular? Don’t the majority of black Americans also see this as a taboo. Even most Asian Americans have a taboo against eating dog meat.
Again, while true (ie, the White-is-right part, the ethnocentrism part and the issue about flipping the question), it is misleading to label it as “white” per se. The next sentence would be just as accurate (and equally misleading) if the flipped question were “Do Black people eat pigs?”
Then the next sentence, “It does not work, at least in the US, because Whites determine the mainstream culture.” does not make as much sense, as why would we explain Black behaviour by saying that Whites determine mainstream culture (even if that is actually the true explanation behind such Black behaviour).
Whereas I would condemn any white person falling into this ethnocentric trope, I would equally condemn any black or Asian American who falls into this trope too. There are certain behaviours I would label as “white”, some I would label as “racist” and some as “white racist”. I would label this as “racist” or even “racist American”, but not necessarily “white”. Blacks, and even Asian Americans should not get a pass either on these racist ethnocentric tropes.
LikeLiked by 1 person
French philosopher Deleuze has once said that he sees the problem that people too much “humanize” animals and that they do not respect their true animality.
LikeLike
@Mira
In Australia I did in fact try water buffalo, wallaby, kangaroo and salt water crocodile.
In Guilin (China) I tried civet (a smallish mammal more similar to a weasel than a cat) and bear claw, as well as camel hoof in Dunhuang (desert region of Gansu province). In Hong Kong, I have eaten stuff like chicken testicles.
In the American South I tried squirrel and wild rabbit and venison – certainly common food items in a traditional Native American diet.
I do not feel any compulsion to eat any of these things (and think eating fruits and vegetables is certainly much healthier), but I do see that taboos against certain animal species is a very cultural thing.
I have eaten shark fin in the past, but I highly condemn it and dare not do it now. It is not because it is a cultural taboo, but as an sustainable environmental measure. Almost 100 million sharks are killed every year for their fins, which has caused many species to be extirpated from their original habitats, wreaking havoc on marine ecosystems. This awareness has spread to Hong Kong, and many young people shun shark fin nowadays.
Regarding cats and dogs, it may be interesting to examine how the taboo is applied in a place like Hong Kong, which shared with nearby Guangdong province in the recent past some limited cultural acceptance of eating stuff like dogs and cats. I don’t think it was ever mainstream behaviour, but more akin to a more general cultural practice of eating exotic animals.
In the past 35-40 years, the birthrate has dropped precipitously in Hong Kong, and dogs and cats have become popular pets, both for childless couples or for families with only one or two children in the home. There is now public outrage over animal cruelty, esp. towards cats and dogs, both general abuse and even the eating of such animals. In the 1970s, you might have been able to find dog restaurants in HK, but in the 2010s, dog meat aficionados must certainly do their eating underground. It is no longer accepted in mainstream culture to do this.
Maybe we can compare it to the attitude towards residents catching and killing wild boar, which are essentially pigs. It is against the law to do that, but there is less public outrage over it.
At late as 2003, in the wet markets in Guangzhou and in smaller cities across Guangdong I would see cages with kittens and puppies that housewives could buy live and have it slaughtered and skinned (or take it home to do so). Yes, it is gruesome to think this, but there are some that do that. When I went to visit the village my grandfather was born in 1999, we saw a batch of six-week old puppies (yes, cute and adorable) that were reported to be ready in about 6 more weeks for consumption (maybe after they were weaned?). My friend visiting from NY gave them all a tight affectionate squeeze after learning what their fate would be.
These scenes are now rare in China post-SARS, since it was determined that the mechanism which allowed the virus to jump from animals to humans was the practice of putting both wild animals and domestic animals in cages in close proximity or on top of each other, allowing the virus to jump from one species to another.
Later, (about 2006-2007) the woman who cleaned our office and sometimes came to clean my place told me the story of one of the houses with a garden (a wealthy family by HK standards) that she did cleaning for who had “adopted” a stray cat and began feeding it and taking care of it. The family living in the house moved back overseas (to Europe) and left the cat behind. The woman later took it home and made soup out of it and described the whole thing to me. She said the cat was very lean and did not have too much fat, but made very good soup. I told the story to some of my (HK born) colleagues, and they were quite grossed out about it and thought of the woman as some uncivilized person who must have grown up in some rural village somewhere.
Finally, in larger wealthier cities such as Beijing and Shanghai which have many childless or one-child families, the popularity of cats and dogs have grown enough so that there is now outrage over eating them or inflicting cruelty on them. We may see a deeper cultural taboo against eating cats and dogs spreading across China.
LikeLike
@Kiwi,
Technically, I agree with you that such racism, esp. that practiced in the USA, can usually find its roots to white supremacist thinking and the White is right mentality. I have no issue with pointing to the source of such behaviour. That is why I agree with the underlying premise and the main points of the post.
What I have a problem with is saying that it is a behaviour associated with White American people in particular, as it is also a behaviour issue with Blacks, Latinos and even many Asians.
So the issue for me is not pointing out both the nature and source of the racist behaviour (which I think is great), but pointing fingers at who practices it. I have no problem castigating Blacks, Asians and Latinos for spreading or perpetuating this racist trope. It might have roots in white supremacist thinking, but certainly not something that primarily whites do.
LikeLike
@ Jefe
I take your point about it being not so much a White American thing as a Western thing. I updated the post accordingly. Thanks.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Westerners feel their habits are default. Dog, pig, snake, chicken – whatever it is, you’re still eating an animal. No matter how it may be killed. Dogs are not human.
If you eat flesh and have requirements on what kind of flesh you’re eating and attempt to rationalize your habits based on how “clean” the animal is or how it was killed, something’s not adding up.
Shoot, some westerners are known for eating humans – but I suppose dogs are more humans than humans.
LikeLike
@gatoblanco
Do you think that American repulsion towards the consumption of primates (eg, mountain gorillas) as “bush meat” is traced to the fact that that they are too human (arguably, at least, more “human” than dogs), or because it is practised in some uncivilised African country (where people hunt animals for the exotic food trade instead of raising them in cages/pens on factory farms)? Or is it due to some conservation awareness issue about the local extirpation of certain primate species?
In other words, are people even aware of why they find certain meat consumption practices repulsive? Is the former an expression of racism?
Chimpanzees hunt and eat monkeys for meat, so obviously they don’t see them as a primate species which is not so different from them. We can argue that it is not related to race.
Would that attitude be different towards the culling of elephants and rhinos for their tusks and horns respectively, or sharks for their fins (ie, how would that apply to animals perceived as “less human”)? Maybe the first example is not good, because elephants and rhinos are rarely killed for consumption. Maybe better to use black bears or tigers as an example.
I imagine that many Chinese (and many other cultures) might view Westerners, who hunt and kill wild animals for sport (ie, not for food or for some trade in exotic animal parts), as something that is altogether very strange, certainly much more odd than eating dog meat or culling any of the animals in the previous paragraph. I once visited a factory in the Pearl River Delta which manufactured all sorts of hunting gear and upholstery (eg, rifle holders) for sale in the West (eg, Sweden).
LikeLike
that fat white guy zimmerman that has the ‘exotic foods worldwide’ show eats bugs and stuff, so …
i’m doin well with no pork or beef personally
LikeLike
I am sure Anthony Bourdain and Bear Grylls have probably had dog meat too.
LikeLike
@Jefe: I concur black Americans are guilty of this micro aggression as well to be fair.
LikeLiked by 1 person
“The Western taboo against eating dogs is just that – a taboo. It has no rhyme or reason to it. Westerners eat pigs after all. Pigs are just as intelligent as dogs, if not more so.”
Yes, it has. A couple in fact (not just dogs, but most land-dwelling carnivores).
1) The resources needed per pound of meat is much higher than for herbivores because of the extra step needed (herbivores eat plants, carnivores eat herbivores). Of course, from a resource POV, veggie food is the best. But meat from carnivores is the worst.
2) The higher an animal is in the food chain, the more toxins it will accumulate. In short, meat from carnivores is more toxic than meats from herbivores in general. The reason is pretty much what’s explained in point 1.
LikeLike
@naishee,
How does any of your argument relate to whether or not an animal is “taboo”? The fact that humans raise billions of carnivores as pets indicates that they have no qualms about “resource allocation”.
I know you mentioned “land dwelling carnivores”, but actually the marine food chain has a higher potential to accumulate toxins.
The overwhelmingly vast majority of seafood that we eat are carnivores. Tuna, for example, feed primarily on fish that are also carnivores. They are very high in the food chain. Groupers and snappers are carnivores. Accordingly, a larger amount of toxins do accumulate in these kinds of seafood.
The amount of resources (in space and food) needed to produce these foods is very high. Therefore, most are wild caught as it is prohibitively expensive to actually raise them.
However, this fact has not created any taboo against eating them.
Frogs are carnivores. But westerners generally do not have a high taboo against eating frog.
Pigs are omnivores and also can eat animal matter. Does that mean the westerners should have more taboo against eating pigs as compared to, say, goats?
LikeLike
“How does any of your argument relate to whether or not an animal is “taboo”? The fact that humans raise billions of carnivores as pets indicates that they have no qualms about “resource allocation”.”
Abagond stated there’s no rhyme or reason against eating carnivores, while there is. Also, rasing carnivores as pets is NOT the same as raising carnivores to eat them.
The rest of your argument is just agreeing with what I said, so…
LikeLike
I wonder if some Hindi guy in India is asking his friends, ‘Do they really eat cows in America?’.
LikeLike
@naishee,
It is certainly not agreeing with what you said.
I still fail to see how any of your argument (ie, about land based carnivores, the resources needed to raise them as food and the accumulation of toxins in their bodies) points out in any conceivable way, or offers any “rhyme or reason” to explain western taboos against eating land based carnivores. All I see it as is a hypothetical rationalization which may have no basis in anything other than cultural prescription.
And, even if you did manage to elaborate how there is logical or scientific basis (ie, “rhyme or reason”) to explain your hypothesis, that still fails to explain why only westerners would be privy to this rhyme or reason and form a taboo about it and not others or why not all westerners would follow the same rhyme or reason.
LikeLike
I agree with Abagond that westerners’ feelings about eating dog meat, and it’s a shame China is bowed to westerners’ feelings–their very fragile and self-centered feelings–by banning dog meat in Beijing during the 2008 Olympics.
And let’s not forget why the dog is so sacred to westerners:
LikeLike
@Mary Burrell, do you really think eating horse-meat is different than eating beef or deer?? Do you know why your tribe has such weird food taboos? 🙂
Jefe, a strong aversion against cannibalism is rather common among the more successful cultures of the world, that may extend to other primates, but also to animals who may have eaten men themselves. It makes sense, if you have lots of other food sources. Having problems with eating horses and guinea pigs is more clearly a cultural prescription.
LikeLike
@Kiwi
“Blacks are seen as disobedient dogs that escaped and attack their master. Natives are seen as feral dogs that were culled off because they were too dangerous. Hispanics are seen as an invasive dog breed that threatens to multiply rapidly. Muslims are seen as rabid dogs that could attack at any time. Asians are seen as quiet, friendly dogs that do as they’re told.”
Well said.
LikeLike
People in Europe eat horse meat, which cause a stir among Americans but weren’t subjected to such microagressive harassment as we do toward Asians and Asian-Americans. Why are we picking on Asians, specifically Chinese on their eating habits? That questioning reeks of arrogant ethnocentricism on our part and it’s disgusting.
Stephaniegirl/S.B./La Reyna
LikeLike
How could you kill and eat something so sweet as these?
LikeLike
” Why are we picking on Asians, specifically Chinese on their eating habits?”
.
Is it their eating habits, or is it their selling habits?
I wonder how many Westerners in the last decade or two have concerns about the origin of the flesh/meat served in Asian resturants?
LikeLike
@resw77
ROFL..Good one.
LikeLike
@Kiwi
Honestly that would require he has a clue to notice. So…I would say no.
LikeLike
Kiwi,
I wonder if Lord of Mirkwood even notices his own hypocrisy when he claims to love animals yet still eats them.
To be honest, it happens. I am one of those people, too. I love animals but I am not a vegetarian. I consume meat rarely but I still eat it. I don’t particularly like it but I do eat it from time to time, mostly chicken and fish. I guess I was raised with this diet and I do not have enough money and resources to completely change. I don’t know. It is a moral problem for many people so Lord of Mirkwood is not the only one. But yes, it’s a moral issue for many of us. It has nothing to do with the object of this thread, though – dog meat is in no way worse/less acceptable than any other meat.
LikeLike
@Resw77
They didn’t bow to our feelings, they bowed to our money, if we were poor do you think they would have given two poops about our “feelings”?
@eauxjai
It’s not too out of hand to have a problem with animal cruelty while still being a meat eater. Admit-ably factory meat can be pretty cruel but there you go.
And if you really think it’s “dirty” that’s a way to avoid diseases and whatever.
@Teddy1975
As for eating horses vs Cows, people tend to look at cows as dumb creatures whereas Horses are “intelligent” and “regale”.
LikeLike
Pigs are quite intelligent omnivores, but widely eaten. Intelligence does not seem to be a main factor to determine whether a food is taboo or not.
LikeLike
@ Jefe
“or because it is practised in some uncivilised African country (where people hunt animals for the exotic food” I am not sure how to understand this sentence.
@ Kiwi
“Blacks are seen as disobedient dogs that escaped and attack their master. Natives are seen as feral dogs that were culled off because they were too dangerous. Hispanics are seen as an invasive dog breed that threatens to multiply rapidly. Muslims are seen as rabid dogs that could attack at any time. Asians are seen as quiet, friendly dogs that do as they’re told.”
Brilliant!
LikeLike
As I had stated a few times on this blog that I have am vegan. I am aware I can bring a wet-blanket attitude to carnivorousness to a party and rarely explain my many reasons (other than the animals suffering) for being one. Without unpacking all the reasons for my being one, I will say that I can hold two opposite opinions at the same time. I understand totally that human beings are omnivorous and that human beings are animals. I do not subscribe amongst other reasons, to the biblical imperative that we have dominion over animals, the don’t- care attitude whether animals feel pain or not, the Disneyesque attitude towards animals and to the hierarchical human being as top of the food chain. Neither, to be clear, would I join Peta or any animal rights organization usually spear-headed by white people.
I used to be dragged into arguments with white people (usually in former body building, powerlifting and artistic circles) whom when diet and nature conservation came up, I had be to subject to their regimen and worldview. [Simply, now, whatever the subject, I do not like engaging with them on any level anymore].
Whether its vegetarianism and animal welfare and nature conversation, I find I am on the extreme minority fringe outside of(even Black) opinion. As far as I am concerned they (whites) are the number one offenders in environmental destruction and should be last people to speak if they have any insight to their own environmental racism. After destroying the ecological balance of how the indigenous HUMANS.i.e. animals co-existing with each other and their environment for millennia, they stripped the native from his autonomy. Through their invasion in South America, North America, Australia, Africa and other regions, they now want to install themselves as eco-warriors, environmental champions, and animal rights advocates. That infernal white saviour syndrome that they are unable to resist.
Weren’t the First Americans the perfect environmentalists? Actually just how many species was lost to Europe prior to their robbing people of their continents? Was earth not teeming with animals when the white man gate-crashed our continents and never left the party? Who is responsible for habitat loss and the destruction of indigenous autonomous symbiotic relationship with nature? Who turned nomads and semi-nomads into sedentary populations locked out of their own environments? And then stole their habitats? Who locked the First Peoples out of their own environments?
LikeLike
It’s a silly and ignorant question, sure, but not entirely off base. I’ve seen (and eaten at) restaurants explicitly advertise as selling dog meat dishes in Asia in the 21st century. They’re dying out and mostly old redneck men go to them, but they definitely exist. However, I haven’t seen (or read or heard about) any in North America or Europe, so it’s at least noteworthy, but maybe I just need to get out more. So, if someone ignorant of history and the rest of the world (ie most Americans) asks this question I can’t be too harsh on them. It’s not a “microagression” or some other silly Stalinist catchphrase, it’s like a child asking a question out of curiosity and ignorance. People just need to read and travel more.
LikeLike
So, in South Africa, you would understand how I would be miffed when a white person who lives on the size of a game farm stolen from the Original inhabitants, feeds and treats her canines far better than her servant who has been is her employ for at least twenty years and does not even know her real name. The same kind of person whose forbears have had access to African animals to either hunt, look at, study, pet, pen in a zoo, raising livestock organically or subject to inhumane conditions in abattoirs, (when whites did not say boo or bah when millions of BLACK HUMANS were/are penned in uninhabitable confined spaces). Whites control all industries in South Africa.
So excuse me when I roll my eyes, when she is waxing rhapsodic how good she feels drinking unadulterated soy protein. This person does not know that ancient FORESTS have been cleared for monoculture to profit Portuguese in Brazil and the indigenous people who have been living there for centuries, their lives as they know it hanging in precarious existence. The same kind of person, although both of us do not eat animals for different reasons assumes that she can tell me: “You know the Chinese are very cruel, they eat dogs” and “ they must have very small penises since they can’t seem to stop stealing our rhino horns”. Since they have an extortionate amount of money and leisure time, white people can afford to further elevate their self-importance, by ‘saving the rhino’ and install themselves as heroes of conservation. That is an entire different subject though.
LikeLike
I had asked her if she knew that it was white settlers that made the lion, rhino and zebra on Table Mountain extinct? They were there for millennia, co-existing with the Khoisan before Jan van Riebeeck stepped of his ship. Did she know that it was WHITE settlers that drove the rhino to near extinction? Not Black and not Chinese. Did she know that it was English people that introduced cats to Australia, wreaking havoc on the bird populations? And the royal family and fox- hunting? Not cruel?
I asked her if she knew that many Black people are afraid of dogs. She replied that she had a vague idea that they did. I replied : “No, in apartheid and even now, white people had trained their dogs, Alsatians, Doberman Pinschers, Rottweilers , Rhodesian Ridgebacks, etc. to attack Black people if necessary. You should know that.”
I politely did not elaborate on some white peoples relationships with dogs that other people find abhorrent. Obviously the exchange faltered before I could ask her how she would know the size of Chinese men’s private parts. “How many Chinese men have you been with to know how endowed they are?” would not have gone down very well. Further pressing her on her practiced obliviousness, by pointing out the cruel animal experimentation that went into the making of her beauty products would have been pointless.
LikeLike
So to the nub of the post: “Do Asians eat dogs?” Why should, say, Chinese, Japanese, Korean people of living outside of Asia, justify the eating habits of more than four billion to a stupid white racist? Stupid, because the interrogator does not even know the rich ethnic heritage of Asia and lumps humanity into one homogenous mass and the assumption that canines are ubiquitous in all of Asia.
The simultaneous question- answer presumes a superior morality when there is absolutely none to be had. Embedded in that also, is innuendo that Asians (all four point three billion of them) are barbaric and uncivilized. The assumption of white standardised cultural practices as the norm further betrays their poverty of thinking . Dogs were used for herding and rounding livestock in European and Anglo appropriated territories.
LikeLike
I’ll be honest, I had no idea dog-eating was common outside of east Asia, especially China. The question is still racist & loaded regardless.
@ taotesan, agreed. The consumption of any animal can be questioned on the same grounds.
LikeLike
@gatobranco1,
“French philosopher Deleuze has once said that he sees the problem that people too much “humanize” animals and that they do not respect their true animality.”
Damn right!
LikeLiked by 1 person
And if have killed any-one through boredom by my long posts-sorry.
For my part, I simply cannot tell others what to do and how to think, and hope that I am afforded the same attitude. I am aware I could come across as a hypocrite and a sentimental foolish idealist, but my heart aches and hurts for animals subject to torture, prolonged suffering and pain no matter from which country, whilst paradoxically understanding (in part) the complexity of human behaviour completely opposite to my thinking. I see, as some-one influenced by the European construct through colonialism, that I have also adopted cats and dogs as pets and have specific feelings towards them.
White people, though, including their conservationists do not understand their position as displacers of land and should see themselves as part of the problem, not as saviours ‘solving’ the problem. As regards wildlife conservation, I would say as a starter, give back the land to original inhabitants.
As an ‘abstinent omnivore’, were livestock not subjected to torture or the industry not dominated by white people, (amongst other things) perhaps, by a long stretch though, I might rethink my position. Not that I am not locked into buying fruit and vegetables from mostly white farmers who treat their workers absolutely abysmally. Kind of a catch-22 situation.
LikeLike
@1tawnystranger
@gatobranco1,
“French philosopher Deleuze has once said that he sees the problem that people too much “humanize” animals and that they do not respect their true animality.”
Agreed.
“We have enslaved the rest of the animal creation, and have treated our distant cousins in fur and feathers so badly that beyond doubt, if they were able to formulate a religion, they would depict the Devil in human form.”
William Ralph Inge.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Thank you Taotesan. That’s exactly what I’m saying. While Europeans and other whites eat horsemeat and in some parts of this country, snakemeat and alligator meat while we arrogantly sneer at POC when it comes to certain animal meats. They even harrass Asians and Asian Americans about “dogs” online and off with their racist and violent messages and actions. Double standards and rank hypocrisy, people.
SB/Stephaniegirl/La Reyna
LikeLike
” [Simply, now, whatever the subject, I do not like engaging with them on any level anymore].
Whether its vegetarianism and animal welfare and nature conversation, I find I am on the extreme minority fringe outside of(even Black) opinion. As far as I am concerned they (whites) are the number one offenders in environmental destruction and should be last people to speak if they have any insight to their own environmental racism. After destroying the ecological balance of how the indigenous HUMANS.i.e. animals co-existing with each other and their environment for millennia, they stripped the native from his autonomy. Through their invasion in South America, North America, Australia, Africa and other regions, they now want to install themselves as eco-warriors, environmental champions, and animal rights advocates. That infernal white saviour syndrome that they are unable to resist. ”
AMEN!!!
Very well stated, Taotesan.
” I find I am on the extreme minority fringe outside of(even Black) opinion.”
,
“The surest way to corrupt … is to … hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently.”
Stay outside of that box!
LikeLiked by 1 person
@taotesan
it was a rhetorical statement to examine whether a taboo stems from some source within a culture (eg, viewed as unclean) or because it is associated with another culture that is viewed as backward or at least odd (eg, something savage or less civilized).
It is NOT a statement about any culture per se.
LikeLike
Taotesan, replied to you but inadvertently inserted a moderated word. Should be coming out soon.
LikeLike
@NoWay Jose
Asking the question if people eat dog by those who have never witnessed it or heard of it is not a microagression.
Asking if ASIANS eat dog to random people perceived to be of Asian descent or Asian origin is unequivocally a microagression. The ignorant part is not lack of knowledge of the answer, but the racist ethnocentric context in which it is framed.
LikeLike
@taotesan @1tawnystranger
Even in East Asia, eating dogmeat is not at all that common, most probably never have done it.
LikeLike
@Jefe
Yes, I have travelled in some parts of Asia, though the dog- eating trope had never even entered my mind. For me, though whether the eating of dogs is rife or not, (whether one agrees with it or not) the eating or not eating thereof , there should be no need to justify it to outsiders.
LikeLike
@V-4
Perhaps if it helped sales, but restaurants said the temporary ban on dog meat hurt business. And the state tourist bureau said the move was about protecting foreigners’ feelings.
LikeLike
@Stephaniegirl and Fan…
Thank you. I think we are on the same page as regards that “Double standards and rank hypocrisy, people”.
LikeLike
@ Jefe
” because it is practised in some uncivilised African country”
“it was a rhetorical statement to examine whether a taboo stems from some source within a culture (eg, viewed as unclean) or because it is associated with another culture that is viewed as backward or at least odd (eg, something savage or less civilized)”.
Sorry, Jefe , your writing is usually very clear and I usually enjoy your posts even if I disagree with some of your viewpoints.
I thought you would clear the ambiguity, but you seem to have reinforced an uncontested prejudice. Uncivilized? Backward? Something savage? Less civilized? To whom? Are you employing ellipsis for White Americans? Or are you stating it from your viewpoint?
LikeLike
@ taotesan
Excellent comments! Thanks.
LikeLike
@Abagond
Wow! That means a lot, coming from you.
LikeLike
Back in the day, we’d go down to Tijuana just to club and hang out. The street dogs down there were rumored to be REAL dog. A Chinese restaurant was recently busted for selling dog meat instead of pork. Those hot dogs were good but we’d pay for it later..
LikeLike
Intelligent and regale? Look if intelligence was the issue, pigs would be about sacrosanct,and as far as “regale” is considered, elk and bison have that a lot more than surplus from the racing industry. personally I suspect that the real totem animal of the “white American” was the horse, without whose power the current mess could never have evolved, and that they are still respecting that.
LikeLike
This may have been mentioned but the idea of placing westernized ideas of what is edible and what is not is just wrong on so many levels. I believe people travel to other countries to taste the local cuisine and enjoy the culture. I don’t want or care for the american spin being placed on it by stipulating what food should and should not be edible because westerners see it as “uncivilized”.
LikeLike
@Lord of Mirkwood
“If bans on dog meat hurt business and capitalism, boo f-cking hoo.”
No one was debating whether the ban was good or bad for business, rather, whether or not it was about protecting westerners’ feelings, which it was.
I don’t give a dayum about any of your feelings and so to the millions who eat dog and cat, I say bon appetit
@sharinalr
Right, it’s their phony superiority complex.
LikeLike
I wonder what dog tastes like. One of my relatives from the Philippines said, “It tastes like chicken.” He was joking, though.
LikeLike
@jefe
Gosh that’s a long post jefe. So did you eat dog and cat or not? I could imagine it taste salty, gamey, and pungent like their pet food that they eat. But then again not sure these animals for slaughter eat that type of food in Asia.
LikeLike
@taotesan,
I replied to you yesterday on my phone while I was traveling, so I could not see everything at that moment. I had to take another look at your question to see where some miscommunication may have occurred. In any case, thank you for bringing up your concerns. Perhaps the original comment left too much unsaid or unexplained, and thus might lead a reader to a different interpretation.
First of all, you asked:
To address these points first
* Am I reinforcing an uncontested prejudice?
–> Certainly NOT. I am trying to expose, challenge and contest the prejudice. In what way am I reinforcing an uncontested prejudice?
* Uncivilized? Backward?, etc. To whom?
–> I am not stating it from anyone’s point of view per se. Not white Americans and certainly NOT MINE. My point was about how such taboos may arise and essentially responding to gatobranco’s point.
I thought I made it clear in my last response to you that it was posed as a rhetorical statement and not reflecting anyone’s point of view in particular. I was in no way espousing that view as I agree with the blog post main point that eating taboos are almost always culturally prescribed, so I still, even after rereading my and your comments, do not understand how I could have possibly reinforced any kind of uncontested prejudice or how you came to your interpretation. I will address the original point to see if it is any clearer.
I was addressing gatobranco’s assertion that taboo against eating dog meat could have different cultural sources. His example was that Muslims have a taboo because dogs are viewed as “unclean”. However, most westerners have a taboo possibly because they feel dogs are somehow more “human”, and thus should not be eaten. (I am not agreeing or disagreeing with him, just responding to his claim).
So, as a counter-response, I wanted to see where the western taboo against eating primates (ie, the Great Apes) would come from. Because, undoubtedly,
* Some humans (not many of course) do eat primates, including apes
* Primates to many people are seen as closer to being human, at least more human than dogs.
(In posing this rhetorical question, I made an assumption that there is a western taboo against eating primates. I do not have proof of this taboo, but made the assumption for the sake of presenting an argument). The logical conclusion to the argument would be that, upon examination, there is no real rhyme or reason to eating taboos other than cultural ones.
Many possible arguments could be proposed to explain why such a taboo against consuming primates may exist (none of which I am actually asserting),
* Apes are closer in nature to humans and should not be eaten
* The primate bush meat trade is primarily practiced in regions that many westerners view as uncivilized or backward. (ie, those that hold a taboo may view it as something that culturally backward people do and therefore they should not). – this is not saying, at least, that I believe in this reason, and perhaps some westerners themselves also eat primates that they obtained through illegal trading.
* They are hunted as wild animals and killed in an inhumane manner, and not raised domestically and slaughtered in more humane conditions (the words “pens” and “cages” was mentioned for rhetorical effect to show that domesticated animals may not be raised or slaughtered in any more humane way).
* The great apes are endangered species, and there should be a taboo against eating them (just as there should be a taboo against eating tiger body parts).
My point of view: Whereas all of these reasons may enter into factors that cause certain people to develop a taboo against eating primates, the main reason behind such a taboo may simply be a cultural thing without much rhyme or reason to it.
Going back to the taboo against eating dogs, gatobranco proposed it might be because they are too close to human-like to many westerners that they developed a taboo against eating dog meat, but that some groups develop a cultural aversion to it because they are unclean.
Abagond’s postulation includes the arguments that westerners might view it as something that culturally backward people do, or it just might be a cultural thing without too much rhyme or reason to it. Regarding dogs, we certainly cannot argue that they have any danger of becoming extinct with over a billion on the planet. We also cannot claim that the taboos arise because of how dogs are slaughtered as hundreds of thousands are euthanized or otherwise killed every day around the world, including by westerners.
Since gatobranco proposed reasons why dog meat taboos might exist, I simply wanted to ask if he felt that he could extend such rationalizations to explain why taboos against eating apes exist (another animal that is eaten by some and perceived as being close to human). Are they unclean? Are they too human? Is it something associated with a culturally backward (ie, uncivilized or at least culturally exotic) region or peoples (as perceived by the person holding the taboo)? Are they hunted and slaughtered under inhumane conditions? Is it because they are endangered? Or is there no rhyme or reason to it?
I never said he espoused any rationalization, and I certainly did not espouse any rationalization or reinforce any prejudice.
My main conclusion from my argument is that people hold taboos for reasons that they really don’t know or understand. Even Naishee’s argument falls quite flat for that reason as the scientific rationalization she proposed is most certainly an afterthought after the taboo exists; the taboo was formed in spite of some scientific basis for why it might make sense (to the person to holds the taboo). I generally agree with Abagond that eating taboos are cultural without too much rhyme or reason to it. Whereas we might propose reasonable explanations why people developed taboos against eating dog, we may not be able to transfer these over to other taboos (eg, the taboo against eating apes), for which a new set of rational explanations would be required. –> no rhyme or reason.
Please advise where the misunderstanding occurred and if I cleared it up at all. Even more, I would like to know and understand how my prior response caused any more confusion and how it was construed that I was reinforcing any cultural or racial prejudice, or that I personally actually espoused any of them. After rereading it, I did not see where I implied that anyone in particular, someone else or myself, held that prejudice per se (after specifically stating that I was not expressing an opinion about any culture).
On a related topic, I am familiar with animal conservation efforts, and also believe that while there may be some environmental reason why certain animals are selected to raise money for conservation, the call for conservation appeals to people for more cultural reasons – thus the cute panda bear or the regal tiger. Compare this to the conservation call to protect honeybees, which arguably are more important for humans and the ecosystem of the planet.
Thank you for your attention.
LikeLike
@taotesan, my response to you is in moderation. I hope it can help clear it up.
LikeLike
@TeddyBearDaddy
No, I never have. But I have eaten at restaurants that advertised that they serve dog meat. Before I had a relative working at one, and she treated us to eat there (although I had no dog meat, for sure).
LikeLike
@Lord of Mirkwood
You linked these insane pictures glorifying dogs and telling us how cute they are.
You must be a very sick individual who’s into beastiality and zoophilia.
LikeLike
This post has me craving Delmonico steak, medium rare!
LikeLike
@ jefe
The uncontested prejudice lies not in the taboo or not taboo of certain meat eating practices, but in your employment of language by referring to parts of Africa as being uncivilized.
I questioned this one specific part of a sentence: “ because it is practised in some uncivilised African country.”
If it is not the white Americans point of view, I must infer from your statements that it is you who perceives that parts of Africa to be uncivilized, an expression from your American lens.
Your words: “Is it something associated with a culturally backward (ie, uncivilized or at least culturally exotic) region .” Here again you seem to be reasserting your faulty viewpoint by clarifying language. Your words: “or because it is associated with another culture that is viewed as backward or at least odd (eg, something savage or less civilized)” seems to reinforce Western assumption of cultural and civilizational hierarchy.
As an African, I would like you to make me understand what ‘savage’ or ‘less civilized means’, please.
LikeLike
“As an African, I would like you to make me understand what ‘savage’ or ‘less civilized means’, please.”
,
@Taotesan
There are a lot of Africans here, indigenous or otherwise, who probably share the exact concern you so eloquently stated.
Speaking solely for myself, as a Black American who is a progeny of the Motherland, I’m also very, very interested in what EXACTLY *savage* and *less civilized* means as it relates to my African brethren.
LikeLiked by 1 person
@Lord of Mirkwood
Umm…how does “glorying in the slaughter of animals” follow the Photoshopped pictures I posted in mockery of your logic?
LikeLike
Your photos showed dogs from a Google search for “cute puppy” and “cute puppies.”
LikeLike
@Lord of Mirkwood
“Cute” means “attractive in a pretty or endearing way,” and many people find it odd that you are attracted to a beast. It’s similarly odd that you are attracted to babies.
But I’m sure that comes from European cultural traditions rooted in longstanding practises of paedophilia, pederasty and zoophilia.
LikeLike
@Lord of Mirkwood
The “scientific studies” you did not reference, which are rooted in a Nazi’s kinderschema theory, do not suggest a “parental instinct to protect the young,” as many species have, is the same as or a product of your physical attraction to babies and dogs. Their work only shows that newborns share certain physical characteristics that are easily identifiable to adults and outlines what those traits are.
LikeLike
If you could read, nowhere did I discredit anyone. I educated you about the theory to which you were referring, which doesn’t justify your physical attraction to dogs and babies. Your own preferences are no better than those of anyone who chooses to eat dog meat.
LikeLike
OFF TOPIC: sexual attraction towards animals. Or Emma Watson.
LikeLike
lmbao @ ‘Emma Watson’. ^^^
LikeLike
@Lord of Mirkwood
Why do you pull sources that have nothing to do with anything? The source talks about using dogs as leather. Not about eating them.
LikeLike
@Lord of Mirkwood
The main body? Turning the dogs into leather is all the one paragraph is about. How is it any different from how any other animal that is eaten is treated? How does being a dog make it more right or wrong than eating anything else? Truth of the matter is it does not. Using photos of slaughter houses to gain some united sympathy for the dog does not work for me.
LikeLike
@Lord of Mirkwood
I so happen to put human life above a dogs. So try not to put false, by my logic, comments that really only add up to your logic.
LikeLike
@Kiwi
You know how racists are. They can’t help, but show their true colors.
LikeLiked by 1 person
@Lord of Mirkwood
“That is speciesist behavior.”—So.
“Take back that disgusting libel right now!!!”—No, because it is not libel it is fact. A fact that comes with quotes from you.
LikeLike
@Lord of Mirkwood
If I wanted to watch a racist argue with another racist, then I would have watched the presidential debates.
LikeLike
About five years ago The Dr. Phil Show had an interesting special on racial bias and Asian Americans. A particular guest, who was a White woman, gave a story about her next-door neighbors (Asian-Americans) “eating the carcasses of a dog.” Stand-up comic and actress Kate Rigg, who is Asian-American, intellectually puts the White woman in her place. If you haven’t seen it, it’s a MUST WATCH.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ut59PKruPrM)
(White woman’s statement: 2:54-3:40) (Kate Rigg’s defensive statement: 4:10-5:24)
LikeLike
@Lord of Mirkwood
“On the other hand, if you want to watch the forces of Leftism defeat those of the Right, come to my blog!”—Liberal racist vs conservative racist. Hmm…. no.
LikeLike
@ Michael Cooper
I moderate YouTube links. If you put them in parentheses, like I did to yours, they will generally go through faster.
LikeLike
Sometimes I wonder if Mirkwood is just a troll seeing how far he can push it.
It’s not the first time he has compared Black people to animals.
Are all white liberals like this ? One one hand he wants to “share” in the oppression and oppose racism. On the other hand his racism is vile and he seeks no apologie.
His shadow boxing the other troll on his blog feeds his superiority complex.
LikeLike
@ Lord of Mirkwood
I was not so much defending dog eating as saying it was no worse than pig eating. I think one can make a well-reasoned, non-ethnocentric case for not eating meat, or at least mammal meat, but after that you have fallen too far down the slippery slope and it is ethnocentrism all the way.
LikeLike
@ Lord of Mirkwood
You used the word “trash”, which I moderate for “white trash”, a slur.
LikeLike
@ Michael Barker
I think Lord of Mirkwood is sincere but woefully blind to his own racism and that of fellow Northern White liberals. Deep down I think he positively loves EPGAH being at his website since he can seem non-racist by comparison – the Racist Uncle thing (which is one of his main tropes on this site).
LikeLike
@ Abagond
I gotcha, I’ll do what you recommended next time. Thanks.
@ Kiwi
Much props to Kate Riggs for myth-busting the “small Asian penis” stereotype. Overall, I admired the way Riggs intellectually combated and defeated the White woman’s generalization of Asian-Americans.
LikeLike
This also ties in with the white liberal view of Zimbabwe on the’ Sanders and Black voters’ thread. To reiterate: it is mostly ‘civilized’ white people in Africa that have upset the ecology of the continent, including Zimbabwe. Robert Mugabe, whom I absolutely do not agree with in his long tenancy and style of politics as President, is reviled by white people the world over, because he has wrested African land back from white land thieves. I am pretty sure if he had killed white farmers, as being distorted in the white press, western nuclear warheads would be aimed at Southern Africa. Nelson Mandela, would have been a polecat, too, had he implemented land reform from the word go. Instead, he had let whites off the hook.
It should understood it is ‘civilized’ white encroachers who have brought lions and other animals to the status of endangered and extinct. Prior to white invasion, Africa, and most of the colonized world was teeming with wildlife. These bleeding heart liberals should challenge their ‘civilized’ psychopathic white scientists on the cruel and sadistic animal experimentation performed on dog and cats and animals captured and ABDUCTED in the wild from ‘some uncivilized places in Africa’, South America and Asia in the thousands of laboratories across the USA.
Talking-head ‘non-speciesist’ pescatarian canine and feline loving racists also should pay attention to how oceans are plundered by massive overfishing and unsustainable and destructive fishing practices.
Pescatarians eat boiled lobster. They eat tuna, too, thereby contributing to the loss of dolphin lives.
Many fish species’ survival is threatened or has gone extinct.
Billions of by-catch, such as sea-birds, turtles, sharks and dolphins die due to destructive fishing practices.
Finger-pointing racists should own their own history. They should not forget their very own ‘civilized’ Uber-racist, vegetarian Hitler, who doted on his beloved Alsatian, Blondi, who had no qualms with his henchman performing inhumane animal experimentation on animals and human beings without anaesthesia.
LikeLike
@Michael Barker
“Sometimes I wonder if Mirkwood is just a troll seeing how far he can push it.”
He’s marketing…one shameless plug for his unpopular blog after another.
LikeLike
And yet another shameless plug. And no, I don’t care about the few lost souls who visited your unpopular blog.
LikeLike
To Abagond:
(This is U. Milton by the way.. changing my handle to Lemmy)
Pigs are just as intelligent as dogs, if not more so. They too can be pets.
Well yes they can be (Teddy Roosevelt had a pig when he was in the White House and there was a pet pig craze in the 90s until people realized how large and unruly their pets could become) but even so called miniature pigs can reach 300 lbs. Full grown hogs can reach over 1000 lbs. Not exactly house animals.
Taboos against pig eating in other parts of the world are dismissed as cultural or religious peculiarities.
Prohibition against eating pork originated with Jews and was later adopted by Muslims as a pragmatic measure to prevent trichinosis which had been endemic in the Middle East. You can also catch rabies from handling or eating the infected brains of rabid dogs or cats.
Western treatment of dogs (and cats) possibly originated with the Ancient Egyptians (although dogs were also common in Persia and Europe thousands of years ago..).
Scene from the tomb of the 26th Dynasty official Pabasa, showing his dog Hekenu under his chair.
http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/timelines/topics/domesticated_animals.htm
Dogs
But however much Egyptians loved their cats, it was their dogs they felt closer to, if Herodotus is to be believed And in whatever houses a cat has died by a natural death, all those who dwell in this house shave their eyebrows only, but those in which a dog has died shave their whole body and also their head. Herodotus, Histories II, 66
Mummy of a dog, New Kingdom; Source: Jon Bodsworth Dogs, while often depicted as hunting companions or as watch dogs, are never shown merely as pets. They had individual names [12] and were often buried with their masters, such as Neb, whose stela dating to the first dynasty bears his name and effigy. At Abydos part of the cemetery was set aside for dogs near the graves of women, archers and dwarfs.
At Gizeh the dog Abuwtiyuw, a greyhound-like tchesem (Tzm), received a fine burial: The dog which was the guard of His Majesty. Abuwtiyuw is his name. His Majesty ordered that he be buried, that he be given a coffin from the royal treasury, fine linen in great quantity, incense. His Majesty gave perfumed ointment and [ordered] that a tomb be built for him by the gang of masons. His Majesty did this for him in order that he might be honored.
Inscription dating to the 5th or 6th dynasty.
“Millions Of Mummified Dogs Found In Ancient Egyptian Catacombs”
http://www.npr.org/2015/07/04/418079713/millions-of-mummified-dogs-found-in-ancient-egyptian-catacombs
LikeLike
@ Lemmy
From what I understand, in Korea they eat dogs AND keep them as pets. In “Charlotte’s Web”, pigs could be both pet and food.
LikeLike
To Abagond:
In “Charlotte’s Web”, pigs could be both pet and food.
It’s been almost 50 years since I read Charlotte’s web but as memory serves with the assistance of Wikipedia, the book is a fantasy which features a literate spider (Charlotte) that saves Wilbur the pig by spelling out “Some Pig” in her web. Not exactly realistic, however one lesson from the book which I think is applicable is the farmer sees that Wilbur the pig is much more valuable kept alive as a celebrity than being slaughtered.
Historically animals which have exhibited high utility to humans in their various host cultures have generally not ended up on the dinner table. Dogs (for hunting and guard duty), cats (to reduce the rodent population) in the both the modern west and ancient Egypt – Cattle in India, which historically were more valuable as draft animals. Over time these animals utility took on a bit reverence such that they effectively became protected.
As for South Korea – parsing through some articles it appears that the people who routinely consume dog meat usually don’t keep dogs as pets and vice versa. The articles I read suggest there is an age, class, and urban/rural divide on the issue.
LikeLike
@ Lemmy
Sure, the book had fantasy elements – it is a children’s book – but pig eating or having pigs as pet were not among them.
LikeLike
Abagond,
Sure, the book had fantasy elements – it is a children’s book – but pig eating or having pigs as pet were not among them.
Wilbur was going to be slaughtered (to be expected on a farm) until Charlotte’s actions saved him. I would classify the character of Wilbur as an exception where his celebrity and value because higher than his meat (like a race horse, champion breeding steer, etc) and not a pet. That said, yes I am aware that some people keep pigs as pets (Paris Hilton for one, pretty funny photo of her with her not so cute adult pig..) as well as snakes, chickens, rats, and even more exotic and dangerous animals like grizzly bears or tigers. Not a chance I would have the latter two anywhere near my family. These are the exceptions and not the rule.
As with the ancient Egyptians, which revered dogs ever more than in the modern US, most European cultures or those heavily influenced by Europe do not eat dogs or cats. I would agree that it’s obnoxious to ask an Asian American you don’t know well if they have eaten dog meat. For the record, I have. It had a strong gamy taste – went out looking for Thịt chó with a Vietnamese American friend of mine when we visited Hanoi in 2000. Neither of us could finish the meal, because of the way it tasted, not because we were squeamish. He maintained that eating dog was a “Northern” or “VC” thing as he put it. Never saw any restaurants South of the old DMZ that advertised Thịt chó nor did I ever see it on the menu. Same with the Philippines, Wikipedia claims that it is a common dish but I never saw it on a menu or any dog carcasses in a market. Beef, pork, and chicken a plenty but no dog. Maybe it’s a regional thing as with Vietnam.
LikeLike
@ stephaniegirl,
Damn right! Recently Iceland (one of our supermarkets) has started selling ostrich, kangaroo, crocodile & wild boar meat! Yet they moan about dogs?!?
LikeLike
Speaking of what is the exception or the rule, White Americans like to keep birds and fish as pets but I’ve never seen that deter them from eating bird or fish meat.
True, but people keep fish as pets predominantly for aesthetic reasons – The value and worth of an expansive Koi drops to almost nil if it were to turn brown overnight. – To the best of my knowledge one does not take a fish out of the aquarium or pool to walk, pet, or play fetch although some might have tried.
like to keep birds..
Yes but typically not of the same species or even genus. For example parrots are more genetically distant from chickens than monkeys are from humans.
As multiple posters here have pointed out ancient Egypt strongly influenced and shaped what we now call Western civilization. I’d say the modern Western attitude towards cats and dogs could very well have come from dynastic Egypt.
http://www.catmuseumsf.org/egyptcats.html
The ancient Egyptians held cats in the highest esteem, the penalties for injuring or killing a cat were severe.
http://www.ancient.eu/article/184/
Dogs were highly valued in Egypt as part of the family and, when a dog would die, the family, if they could afford to, would have the dog mummified with as much care as they would pay for a human member of the family.
As for Abagond’s statement:
The Western taboo against eating dogs is just that – a taboo. It has no rhyme or reason to it.
Once again I’d say the taboos against consumption of animals by humans in various cultures comes from the perceived maximum utility (or potential disease) for species.
Hindu culture – Cattle – More valuable as a draft animal .
Pork – Judaism, Islam – Trichinosis was endemic for centuries.
Dogs – Used for hunting, herding, watch animals.
Cats – Kill mice, rats, and other vermin that eat stored grain.
Koi, Goldfish,etc – aesthetically pleasing.
LikeLike
Wow…some of these comments are insanely interesting. I wouldn’t be surprised if some of you are ok with eating human flesh..maybe mom’s arm….baby’s head…I mean it’s meat, right ???..following a lot people’s logic here. As long as we find some humane way of killing it…or not. Anything goes! Even though there are different cultural norms, I think not loosing sight of some sort of standard is actually a very good thing for that very reason.
LikeLike
Just ran across a good article on this subject.
(https://www.hongkongfp.com/2016/07/09/identity-politics-meets-consumer-capitalism-at-yulins-dog-meat-festival/)
Identity politics meets consumer capitalism at Yulin’s dog meat festival
First of all, they have a link to this video which blasts Asia in general for this “barbaric” practice.
Watch: celebrities join shock campaign against dog killings in Asia
(https://youtu.be/jppHqS9WADo)
And then points out that Americans raise and kill more animals per capita than any other nation on the planet, which is destroying the environment at a much greater rate than any dog culling would do.
But then it goes on to explain some of the cultural differences in food attitudes.
This can also be environmentally destructive as well (eg, the extirpation of “exotic” species), but perhaps not on any scale coming close to what Americans do. Dogs are not eaten to any significant degree anywhere in Asian, and in any case, are not in danger of extirpation anytime soon.
LikeLike
My dog is my best friend. Yes, I am Caucasian, of Irish descent. I find it offensive that someone would be dismissive of my opinion simply because I’m not “Asian”. I am not dishing their cultural norms so DON’T Freaking DISH mine.
I the western world PUPS are best buds to many. And don’t forget the animals that save people’s asses as part of SAR groups.
LikeLike
@Cathy gill
“I am not dishing their cultural norms so DON’T Freaking DISH mine.”
I don’t know if the use of “dish” instead of “dis” was an intentional pun or not, but if you serve beef, you’re dishing someone’s cultural norm. Serving bacon would be dishing someone else’s. We used to dish horses here in the states before it became our cultural norm not to. So, if you’re going to continue to dish the cultural norms of other cultures, maybe take a seat and let them dish what suits their culture.
LikeLike
@ Cathy gill
You’re entirely missing the point. If, as you say, you don’t criticize their cultural norms — and especially if you don’t ask Asians about eating dog or make jokes about it — then you’re okay. You can still have whatever opinion you want about whether it’s okay or not overall to eat dogs.
The article discussed some logical fallacies but not in the attempt to dismiss the opinions of Caucasians. Rather, the point was to demonstrate how asking this question of Asian people is a racial microaggression. It would be like asking white southerners if it’s true they all eat possum. While some have (including a few in my own family), most do not, and the question would be rightly understood as an offensive regional slur.
One thing the article didn’t point out is that Asians make up the largest number of vegetarians in the world, especially in India but also in China, Japan, Thailand, and many other countries.
This is largely due to religion; in Buddhism, Hinduism, Shintoism, Jainism, Daoism, and other Asian religions, vegetarianism — while not absolutely required — is seen as the purest type of diet and the ultimate goal to achieve. Buddhism and Hinduism in particular encourage vegetarianism out of compassion and respect for all living creatures.
Two of the primary protein sources and meat substitutes in vegetarian cooking, tofu and seitan, were invented in China and have been eaten in Asia for hundreds of years.
So representing the consumption of dogs as an Asian cultural norm isn’t exactly accurate. Some Asians do eat dogs, but many others find the consumption of any meat morally reprehensible.
LikeLiked by 1 person