Cultural appropriation is when you take something from another culture over the objections of that culture. It is cultural theft. It is especially common when racists borrow “cool stuff” from cultures whose people they look down on.
It is that thing where if Black people do something, like twerking or wearing cornrows, it is looked down on as “ghetto” or “hood” or “unprofessional”, but when White people do the very same thing, it is suddenly admired as “cool” or “edgy” or “epic”.
What to Whites seems like “innocent” borrowing can seem quite different to people of colour:
Here is ishanijasmin of Tumblr, whose family came to England from India, talking about bindis:
“On me it’s dirt, worthy of a slur in my direction and an inside joke with the next white person you see – but on you, it’s chic. It’s cheerful and oh-so-boho-indie-pastel-pale-cute.”
Azealia Banks, a Black rapper, talking about the Grammy award for rap music:
“When they give these Grammys out, all it says to White kids is, ‘Oh yeah, you’re great, you’re amazing, you can do whatever you put your mind to.’ And what it says to Black kids is, ‘You don’t have shit, you don’t own shit, not even the shit you created for yourself.’ ….
“The basis of modern capitalism is slave labour, really just the selling and trading of these slaves. There are fucking huge corporations that are still caking off that slave money and shit like that. So until y’all motherfuckers are ready to talk about what y’all owe me, whether the number is $7 trillion or $8 trillion or $9 trillion, at the very fucking least you owe me the right to my own fucking identity and to not exploit that shit. You get what I’m saying? Like that’s all we’re holding onto, like hip hop and rap. ….
“They’re trying to erase us, all of our books and scriptures and everything. Everything we are supposed to know about ourselves have gone, completely fucking gone, never to be seen again.”
The three cultural A’s:
- assimilation – taking on the ways of another culture to become a part of that culture or its society. Sometimes this is done by force, like to Black and Native Americans.
- acculturation – borrowing from another culture.
- appropriation – robbing another culture.
Sometimes there is a thin line between “borrowing” and appropriation. For example, Eminem and Iggy Azalea are both White rappers, but many see Iggy Azalea as an appropriator of Black culture while Eminem is seen more as a partaker. The same goes for White singers Teena Marie (partaker) and Madonna (appropriator).
Those who borrow from a culture but
- belittle, stereotype or misrepresent it or its people or
- take credit for or get rich off of something they did not create
are generally seen as appropriators.
In general, if people from the originating culture object, then it is not borrowing but appropriation. Just like if I do not want you to borrow my car but you take it anyway, it is no longer borrowing.
Thanks to Uriel, Bulanik and others for suggesting this post.
– Abagond, 2015.
See also:
- external links:
- Teena Marie
- Some examples
- “White is right”
- Companies and universities that profited from slavery
- growing up Native American
- stereotype
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I think “appropriation” is aways going to be a bit fuzzy around the edges, but the best rule of thumb seems to me that you give credit to those you borrowed from, and that you respect them. The biggest problem that most POC have with appropriation is the tendency to laugh at things only later to “invent” those same things in your own culture… or else the hypocrisy of something being bad… until a White popular person does it (then it suddenly becomes OK and cool.)
On the other hand, obviously we all take things from other cultures and we can’t always take a poll as to whether the Japanese public is outraged that I have a kimono style housecoat.
Oh yeah, I should probably also add to my list of appropriation, the idea of NOT taking the time to UNDERSTAND something before copying it. Most people object to people taking their cultural icons without ever having a clue as to what they mean in the original culture. Only to have them redefined and propagated with a totally altered meaning, so that the original context becomes hopelessly muddled.
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This! I remember the big hoopla regarding Miley Cyrus shaking her behind. White girls were jumping on the bandwagon and posting videos on YouTube proudly doing the same thing because it looks so “cool” to them. However, I also remember white people were saying it was slopping and disgusting when black people did it first. Hypocrites.
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What about those hipster, white people in Native American garb such as the headdress, deerskin dresses, moccasins, etc. on the runway? It’s not a fashion statement. To Native Americans or Aboriginals where I come from, wearing them is a cultural and spiritual association. It’s a source of pride and rightfully so.
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What really annoys the crap out of me is when I see Halloween costumes of stupid Asian outfits. It’s disrespectful. Hello? Chinese take-out?
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One of my South Asian friends told me she rolls her eyes whenever she sees a white woman wearing a bindi on her forehead for fashion. She told me of all the times she was called a slur…a…I have a hard time typing this out…a dothead. *cringes*
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I get that the hypocricy is annoying, but beyond that i’m pretty much on board with the statement from the chart: “…borrows always from different sources”. And the source of course is not always refenrenced. At some point it just becomes a part of the culture it has transitioned into.
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I give the side eye to Iggy Azalea. I can’t take her seriously.
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@Leigh
That is what gets me. They will take things from a culture and make it slutty. They do not respect it. It drives me crazy. Being someone who engages in other cultures, I take great pride in showing it proper respect. So when I see others trash it like they are just too cool to even try to learn more about it….it just annoys me.
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I can not stand iggy. I thought she was da brat for the longest before I saw her face.
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@ Sharina. I actually always thought Iggys styles was a cheap imitation of Eve from Ruff Ryders. Pissed me off because Eve is my favorite female MC, the G.O.A.T. in my opinion
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Cultural appropriation-disrespectful bottom line. Think about it like this, you are invited into a POC friend’s house, then once inside complain, make snide remarks, ridicule everything about their décor, the cooking, etc. Then go home to your own house and copy POC friend’s décor, cooking and sale it to your neighborhood/family/friends as if you thought of it all by yourself. Giving no credit where credit is due. NOT COOL at ALL. Get it??? We just whining/complaining per usual huh?
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Hunger Games actress, Amandla Stenberg, called out Kylie Jenner for her cornrow caption: “I woke up like diss.” Really? I think not!
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Hello as a white person I have a question I’m hoping someone can help me with. Since almost everything started in africa, the dawn of civilization, how can I own anything without it being considered cultural appropriation? I mean jewlery wise since jewlery is a big thing in today’s time. Don’t worry abagond, thus has to do with this subject 🙂
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Like for instance as a Christian and white, is it cultural appropriation fir ne to wear a cross since it started in the middel east? Or wearing bracelets because they originated in ancient egypt, is that cultural appropriation?
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Nathan, see my first comment please.
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Amandla is serving up truth i love her for this and she is making many whites angry. Well it reminds me of the old country adage about a hit dog will holler. Well young Miss Stenberg called Kylie Jenner out on her foolishness. I hope she continues to call all these clowns out on their foolishness. She is a whip smart young lady and i hope she continues to speak truth.
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Mary, in your eyes what are white people allowed to own since there’s so much appropriation
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@A
I would compare the two to see, but then I would have to give Iggy some attention and I just can’t. Though she seems to steal from everybody doesn’t she?
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@Nathan t
White people want to own everything, but the truth. This they avoid like the plague. Fact of the matter is whites need to stop trying to own “everything”. Everything is not for white people to own. Admire it, engage in it, but realize it is not yours.
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Thank you Abagond! You have given me the vocabulary I have been looking for! Many people don’t understand the difference between appropriating in a mocking way vs. partaking and assimilating in a respectful way.
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Exactly, sharinalr, that’s what I’m asking, can white people use basic stuff like knives and tools withoit it being cultural appropriation?
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I mean cause we all need knives and tools
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[…] Sourced through Scoop.it from: abagond.wordpress.com […]
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Thumbs up to the young and beautiful Amandla Stenberg for reminding not only America but the entire world on how America can love Black culture (music, dance, dress and hair style, etc.) but hate or dislike Black people. That’s like a non-White person who hates White people but love White inventions. That’s crazy.
Black culture is a beautiful and influential culture. In many ways, Black culture is like the continent Africa. White Americans – e.g., Whites entertainers and conglomerates – have prospered from Black culture the same exact way the European Union has prospered from the natural resources of Africa. To me, that’s very disturbing.
In America, Black and Asian cultures are the main victims of cultural appropriation.
The East Asian culture presented one of its finest arts – Kung Fu – to America. What did White American television writers and producers do? They gave the American people a TV series called ‘Kung Fu’ (1972-75) starring a Caucasian actor named David Carradine. The TV series, Kung Fu, put Carradine (not Bruce Lee or any other Asian-American actor/martial artist) on the American money-making map.
Karate is an East Asian art developed in the Ryukyu Kingdom (of Ryukyu islands). It was brought to the Japanese mainland in the early 20th century during a time of CULTURAL EXCHANGE between the Japanese and Chinese. In the 1920s, Karate was systematically taught in Japan. When the Japanese introduced Karate to America it eventually became well-liked by Americans. What did White American movie writers and producers do? They gave the American people a movie called ‘Karate Kid’ (1984) starring an Italian-American actor named Ralph Macchio. The Karate Kid movie put Ralph Macchio (not a Japanese-American actor/martial artist) on the American movie-making map.
The White writer and producers of the 1979 movie ’10’ tried their best to rob another element of Black culture – African “cornrow” braids, pejoratively called French braids.
As a kid growing up in the 1980s I thought a lot of things were part of White culture, like Rock’N’Roll and its famous 1960s ‘Twist’ dance. Old television shows showed young White people rigidly twisting and dancing to Black music. As an adult, I began to study the history of music in America and I learned that Rock’N’Roll music was created by African-Americans. During its infancy, Rock’N’Roll was called “devil music” and “nigger” music by older Blacks and southern Whites, respectively. When Rock’N’Roll became accepted by the dominant White society it became “their” music. A White American musician named Elvis Presley – not Chuck Berry (an African-American musician) – became the “King of Rock’N’Roll”.
As a young adult, in the early 1990s, I witnessed the birth of the long shorts. Michael Jordan was the first athlete to wear basketball shorts a couple of inches to the knees, but it was the Fab Five of the 1990’91 Michigan basketball team to wear the long shorts. They wore basketball shorts down to the knees and loose. ( http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1592022-how-michigans-fab-five-changed-the nba-forever ) The long, loose shorts of Michigan basketball team became an instant seller around the country and the world. Of course, White conservatives viewed the long and loose shorts as “ghetto” but it didn’t stop their suburban children from buying them. Give the Fab Five of Michigan (C-Webb and company) credit for bringing the long, loose shorts trend to the NBA, which, in turn, brought it to every retail store in America. Sometimes in between my exercises I look around at gym members who are wearing long shorts and can’t help but to think about how Black culture influenced the American apparel. The ugly part of the long shorts influence is that the White corporations and conglomerates, like Iconix Brand Group, are reaping the revenue-benefits of another element of Black culture.
http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/article/media_slots/photos/000/796/725/Michigan_shorts_original.jpg?1365033654
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Nathan, you are talking in circles. Many people have already said that NOBODY thinks that Whites cannot own silverware. “Cultural Appropriation” would be more like laughing at people for using chopsticks and then claiming to have invented chopsticks earn nobody else is looking.
Again, people borrow from other cultures ALL THE TIME, including Black People, who even borrow from European culture. There’s a big difference between what we are talking about and the questions you keep asking.
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I know it’s just what sharinalr said and I wanted to know what he meant cause say for example. I own a gold necklace, but then I see a african person wearing the same thing, I would then be accused of cultural appropriation because jewlery and basic tools (besides rocks and sticks) started in africa. It’s just confusing
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sharinalr is a she. Are you sure that is what she said? Can you point me to the post were you are getting this from?
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I’m so proud of Amandla! I hope my daughter grows up to be as smart and conscious as she is.
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King this is the post
I just wish she was on hear so I could ask her if she meant whites can’t own anything like tools cause its culturalappropriation
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Shame on Andy Cohen for going after this young girl on his recent show. Even worse that Laverne Cox and Andre Leon Tally said nothing during the segment… #boycott BravoTV
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@Nathan t
Not to be rude but do you have reading comprehension issues? I have had it sky high with whites reading something in my posts that are not even there. I never said not one thing about whites not being able to own tools, but are cornrows tools? Is a extremely short kimono tools? Was Jazz or rap and tool? My post is clear.
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But yeah that’s why I’m curious if she meant we can’t own tools or anything that africa made which is a lot bssicslly
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A few questions and a sample convo i’ve had too many times with people i’ve talked to.:
(before i start i should mention i do not promote deliberate stereotyping, dehumanization, or mockery in any form.)
Q0: How does it make any sense that i should not do (insert cultural thing here) because you’ll get harassed if you do it? I try to make sure you can and i’m not the cause of that misfortune.
A0: “It’s not just that, it is also the theft.”
Q1:. Why is it appropriation (i.e. theft) to use artifacts from another culture? It doesn’t go away from your use because of mine, and the individuals mocking are not the same as the individuals using. If it brings up a traumatic memory, i will simply use it in private.
A1: “It isn’t about whether it is literally stolen, it’s about respecting the historical context you’re using things in.”
Q2: Okay, so it needs to be done your way. Again, how can i desecrate an artifact i am not a related to? My misuse does not magically destroy the item’s significance in your culture because i am not a part of it and never will be.
A2: “Your culture is top dog, your actions will inevitably propel you to the forefront of the white [American] cultural sphere and then the artifact’ll be ruined.”
Q3a: Okay, point taken. Still, i mean, isn’t culture just an arbitrary separation construct? Can i just use with no abandon things from people on the same or a higher level of white as me? Why should we not rid all our current cultures to make one (or many) supreme ones?
Q3b: Okay, i guess i can ruin it. Yet my culture is apparently less than yours because it was founded on atrocities but i can’t do any sort of a roots revival or make a new one? I mean, what do i do for MY culture then? How do i add influences to and progress the aforementioned culture when it’s mostly wrong or stolen without pissing off all the reasonable people a part of the culture i’m using cues or innovation? I get behind giving credit, but you still think of mine as public property- even the parts that weren’t forced upon you like for instance .
If anyone has any answers to questions 3a and 3b please share so i and most other whites in my circle of communication can understand what’s going on. If anyone objects my other questions and points, please also help me out. Thanks in advance.
I separated question 3 in 2 because i am conflicted on the nature of culture itself.
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I also get behind do anti-racism work, not just giving credit.
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King maybe you know if that means something else but it sounds like she said whites can’t own tools or anything without it being cultural appropriation
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What does “owning” in this matter mean? If we talk about rap, white people can’t do it? Or they can’t give rewards in that field of music? It is somehow collectively owned by the people who happen to share the same color of skin?
Does that mean whites own classic music? Any black or Asian should not participate because its white culture? If any non white is giving awards for classic music, they are trying to own classic music? If a non white is successful classic musician, he is appropriator?
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Exactly. What did she mean by that. I just want to know if she’s saying that it’s cultural appropriation for whites tow own jewlery or tools
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(See #3, lol, it’s amazing the level of cluelessness and yet they are the superior race!?!?! * insert extreme sarcasm here*)
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Again, people seem to become totally oblivious of context when any of these things are discussed. It seems to be based on the fairytale that the world is just when what we actually have is a racist European/Euro-merican global empire. Within this context, white people and “others” are NOT THE SAME.
We can’t appropriate. We were forced into white systems because whites attacked and took over almost every square inch of the planet. Heck, if there were native people in Antarctica they’d have had a problem. That’s how European languages, for example, ended up in North America, South America, Africa, India/Pakistan and Australia. We didn’t go to Europe and think they were cool and decided to adopt them!
If whites did not hate, belittle, colonize and try to destroy people of other cultures then their behavior would not be appropriation but participation. Instead, whites actually work to separate people from their own culture (by genocide or cultural destruction/”civilization”) while profiting from bits of it that they take. They kIlled off the original Americans then used their symbols to represent sports teams. I guess it’s ‘cool’ for whites to wear the remnants of the people they’ve attacked. It’s not cute or flattering for the people who are on the receiving end of that behavior.
It’s a problem.
Whites impose themselves, kill their host, and absorb the parts they like. It is really like eating and digestion. It’s a fundamentally parasitic relationship towards other people. It’s not OK for these people to be themselves but it’s OK for whites to dabble in the way they dress, or style their hair, or their artistic symbols, or their cuisine, or their music. What makes whites “edgy” and “Interesting” to their own makes the actual people who originated those cultural expressions targets for discrimination or death.
That’s a problem.
Whites can only appropriate because they are operating as beneficiaries of a racist system that devalues other people (cry me a river). Those people are forced to try to be white to exist in an expansionist and racist empire, that was created for white people, while whites can dip in and take what they like from the very cultures the originators are pressured to separate from.
That’s a problem.
It’s actually standard white group behavior. Whites have appropriated land by separating the native inhabitants from it and even conceptually separated people from their humanity thereby converting them into merchandize to be possessed like rice or sugar. They’ve done the same to culture by separating it from the people to whom it’s spiritually linked and turning it into a commodity to be enjoyed and sampled by whites. It’s almost the final nail in the coffin when they can pretend to be like you in ways that they choose but you aren’t expected to be authentically you!
That’s THE problem.
That’s taking or APPROPRIATION.
There is nothing equivalent on our side because we are not running a racist empire intent on possessing the universe. When Lang Lang plays Mozart to an appreciative audience while a white performer is ignored, ridiculed or arrested for doing it equally well (or better) I’ll sympathize.
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(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8epyQ5MnFY)
Nuff said
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@lifelearner and Origin
Exactly!!
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@Nathan t and Axlone
Own means what it has always meant. The definition did not change so neither did my meaning. Oprah may have made a channel out of it, but dang it is not rocket science.
I want either of you to point to where I said white people can’t do it? Did you get slapped with the stupid stick. I stated as clear as day “Admire it, engage in it, but realize it is not yours.”
And you know what. That is why you don’t get it because white people think everything is theirs. What you mean to say is: Why can’t white people Own it, claim it as their own, and not have POC say anything about it.
@Nathan T
“I just want to know if she’s saying that it’s cultural appropriation for whites tow own jewlery or tools”—Then you either need to address your reading comprehension or reread what I said. Because tools or Jewelry was not a part of my post. It is what you keep whining about.
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Nathan t
I wouldn’t advise sane minds here to give Nathan t anymore airtime. He is either a troll, or an oblivious white. You are being facetious when you ask questions like this. You know damn well what millions of colored folks are speaking of when they say they (including myself) are offended by white people misappropriating (at best) their cultures by playing dress up and stealing/degrading their cultures and traditions, not to mention your insatiable need to move to and buy land in colored countries. When you ask questions you are being snide, and trying to downplay colored peoples struggles with white supremacy and you are insinuating towards that with your callous comments. White people like to think from a default perspective, like their whole “white” existence is the default, and the rest of us are just unfortunate inconveniences in their “white” existence. Your line of thinking is sociopathic and sick. And you wonder why people the world over despise you.
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This right here!
This is the default perspective I was speaking of. They honestly believe God put this whole earth here for them to enjoy, while the rest of us toil away to keep their existence comfy. Who made us the official lowly stewards of the earth???
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Can anyone gonna answer my questions? I’m seriously confused.
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@Stacks
Exactly!
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@Uriel
Your question has been answered several times over and by several people. At this point you don’t want A answer to your question. You want YOUR answer to the question. In which people refuse to coddle you.
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I have new questions i made for the thread, and i can’t find the answer to “What culture should i have?” anywhere. I’m not mad or needy, just confused.
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This Nathan character needs to be ignored. He is playing games not serious. Wouldn’t be surprised if he/she were a sock puppet
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@Uriel: Do the effing research. It’s not anybody’s job to coddle and spoon feed you. If you are interested in learning read and research.
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@Mary
All he has to do is read the several threads before him and he will have the answer. King laid it out perfectly. Not to mention Leigh provided visual examples. He is ignoring it.
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@ Mary, King, Sharina, all
You guys did good enough, he’s just clowning. Unfortunately he didn’t or doesn’t realize the intellectual caliber of the commenters on this site so he ended up just clowning himself.
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@ Origin
Couldn’t have said it better. Some people call that ish being superior, I call it being parasitic.
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I did the research and i just got nothing that answered my questions, which’s why i’m here. I didn’t say or imply you had to treat me like a baby or even answer my questions, i was only asking for literally anyone in the know to do me a solid and either answer or tell me about an ally that knows their shit. I know i am not some ultimate authority and i apologize if i came off that way.
I ignored King and Leigh’s comments at first because i thought they weren’t addressed to me. Here’s a run down of my knowledge, please lemme know if i got something wrong:
Mockery (racist costumes, racist faux-accents, general punching down): Nobody gets a right to do this, which i agree with. I am not doing this, and will never do this again. Every white person has done this at least once, but not nearly as much have done it with the knowledge of the truth about society. Admittedly, i used faux AAVE until i was 15 (I’m 18, and have only been so for about a month- not that youth is an excuse), which is when i started to get clued in. I am really sorry for all i have hurt during those years, and i will never pull it again. I promise you i and maybe most other people did not know any better. This is one half of what Leigh said.
Mockery, Insider Barring, Usage After Barring (mock insiders, exclude insiders, use remnants of insiders culture): Nobody gets a right to this, which i agree with. I am not, have not, and will never do this and i try to stop it by calling out other whites. This is the other half of what Leigh said.
Changing the meaning: I have no power to completely change what something means, why must X thing mean Y value in both Z and W cultures? I get behind giving credit to inspiration, as well as letting others practice X in Y way.
Taking Influence, Attributing Sources: This is where it gets fuzzy, but it doesn’t have to be. Why do non-Farrakhan-type people still object even when i follow King’s rules?
Roots Revivals: Why are they seen as disingenuous? Look at the Heathens, they get shit for being disingenuous despite almost exclusively remaining in the realms of their own culture.
Thanks for listening and i appreciate your patience, if you don’t wanna answer can you at least direct me to a competent ally (i refuse to trust my or any white person’s ultimate judgement on who a good ally is).
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@A: Thanks, I get so annoyed with the foolishnes of these people not being serious and not wanting to learn. But only want to play games. George Ryder I see you.
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@ Sharina
In terms of “flow”, “rhyme scheme”, and “voice” Iggy sounds like the typical modern female MC. which is to say more or less indistinguishable from the rest.
I put those words & terms in quotes because she really doesn’t have much of those qualities to speak of. The Eve comparison is more of the vibe Iggy imitates. Her mannerisms, voice, attitude and whatnot seem to be all robbed from The First Lady. The fake Blaccent and weak lyrics made her easy to but the Eve impression made me outright despise her.
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“Some people call that ish being superior, I call it being parasitic.” @Gen, Yup, that’s why I don’t engage these thirsty azz Trolls when I smell ’em coming at me! @Origin, King, Sharinalr, & Mary B. Yayus, speak truth!!!
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Some white feminists combine gender and race as a way to “share” in the oppression of non whites. I think arguing that the oppression of white women is the same as that of black women is disingenuous and may be an attempt to redirect black feminism.
To me it seems to be a form of appropriation for an assumed ideological alliance, ending white supremacy. But ending “white male patriarchy” through the existing Eurocentric justice system by passing legislation ect isn’t going to end white supremacy.
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@Uriel: Podcast are very informative try “About Race” podcast they are very informative.
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Okay, thanks.
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@Uriel
They are not directly addressed to you, but they actually address what you are asking.
“Why should we not rid all our current cultures to make one (or many) supreme ones?”—Then whose culture will we be melting into? In most cases we end up melting into and following white American culture. Anything else is consider savage or lesser than that. This is the part you are ignoring. Every other group is considered lower by whites. Their culture is less, their way of life is less, etc. You keep claiming you guys are less and painting whites as victims when they are most certainly not and this is not the message they enforce on the world.
“I mean, what do i do for MY culture then?”—Tell the truth. Stop lying to your kids and POC kids about how this country was founded. Stop lying about how whites freed us because they were so just and moral. Stop lying about the inventions of POC and claiming them as white inventions. Stop stealing our history and claiming it as white. Stop stealing our customs and culture and making them cool only because whites are using it.
“I get behind giving credit, but you still think of mine as public property- even the parts that weren’t forced upon you like for instance .”—The problem here is that whites have no real idea what is theirs and what is a result of a group of POC in the background because so many lies have been told to ensure certain things are whites. In short you freely use a lot of POC “stuff” that has become your public property. The complaint is not that you can’t use other people’s stuff. The complaint is why is other peoples stuff cool when whites do it and trashy when a POC of color does it? Why is it okay for whites to degrade a culture that people take pride in by not respecting it?
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I have a problem with that argument. The people who see (for example) Black American culture as inferior are not necessarily the same who adopt traits of it. For example Bill O’Reily voices quite often his disgust for Black American culture, but I don’t think he has yet been caught trying to copy Black musicians. On the other hand i’m not aware of Miley Cyrus beeing disparaging about Black American culture. I don’t see why she should be held responsible fore the O’Reilys of the world.
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Kartoffel
That is not entirely true. Things they see as hip and fun they will. In the south this is common and they usually add a little country twist to it.
Miley usually plays on black stereotypes, soaybe that plays a role in why.
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Miley, yeah, that makes sense- i get behind not wearing a stereotype for kicks. Brother Ali, Kenny G, and Kurt Cobain, no i don’t understand their hatred from non-Farrakhan types.
—
I don’t give any shits about what white society thinks about anything unless i could die from it and neither should you. White society is built on genocide, rape, and brainwashing and will always be that way so i don’t particularly want to be a part of it. You are less by THEIR standards, but not mine. Your lives and ways may be 90/10 but at least not 0/100 on the good to evil ratio. This isn’t even white guilt talking, why do you care what whites at large think, anyone who treats you that way over and over is evil.
Point is, i don’t want mass white approval because, the way i see it, if you piss them off, you’re (usually) doing something right. Take pride in your suffering, it is what makes you better than me because i still benefit from privilege (which is both evil and my fault for some reason) no matter how hard i try to be good. We don’t have a meritocracy.
Either whites are more than just atrocity or you apologizing for something incredibly pathetic. I try to tell other whites to not be hypocrites and ass
I know the truth and tell it. Some people do listen, many don’t, but that isn’t the problem. We know full well we’ll be forgiven if we try to make amends, but again our culture will not. We can’t do roots revivals or assimilate with other whites- so what do we do that’s right? That’s why i hate myself, because i am seen as nothing but atrocity by the good people in the world. I know i CAN do anything i WANT, but i operate on SHOULD and NEED. I should have a just culture just like you. How’s it fair i should be punished for the actions of my ancestors.
If you disregard all of the above, please just answer these: Why am i only atrocity. Why can’t i be a human being equal to you by objective standards? Why can’t i have a culture that is worth exchanging?
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@Uriel
Most of what you said makes no sense and seems to be constructed of a lot of assumptions. Stop assuming the mental state of POC and start actually listening.
When people say white people in here it means in general. It does not mean all white people. So in the words of Mary “A hit dog will holler.”
“Why can’t i be a human being equal to you by objective standards?”—Same repeated question that you have gotten the same answer before. No one said that. You keep saying that.
Why can’t i have a culture that is worth exchanging?”—No one said that either, but tell me what is white culture? What is something white Americans have that truly is their own. No one minds exchanging. The problem is people mind having their culture stolen and whitewashed. Period.
And If you still don’t get it, then I will have to say I am done.
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@Uriel: If you are serious about wanting to be an “ally” and that word ally has lost it’s essence you need to just shut up and stop talking just listen and pay attention to what is going on in the country. The word ally sounds self righteous just be a decent human being and if you want to change things do it because you are decent not because you want brownie points from black people another people of color. I am going to ask you to stop “Whinning.” Stop WHINNING” it’s annoying as hell. Stop It!
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@Mary
Very well said and straight to the point.
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What is something white Americans have that is truly their own? I don’t know, which is why i’m here. What culture do i have? Is there anything i currently or can possibly have that isn’t wrong or stolen?
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I should say i think it’s bullshit to outright steal a culture you once hypocritically called pathetic or to try to be a part of a culture by using stereotypes. The solution probably comes in by (almost always allies) letting us know what’s ours what’s ours and good and how to take influences. Obviously allies will do the heavy lifting, but the info must start somewhere an i haven’t found a consistent answer to my questions.
Also, thank you for remaining patient where even all other allies i know would flip their shit.
I’ll also start referring to allies as the normal white people after this post.
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Uriel, “White” Americans are really European Americans (or Americans of European origin). Where is your family from before America?
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My mom is 50-shades-of-vanilla (she’s half Irish, quarter Alsatian French and Swedish), my dad Ashkenazi Jewish. If you’re suggesting a roots revival, sure, i’ll do it now that non-white people have confirmed the idea making it more than something whites and ignorant whites pulled out of their arses. I swear StuffWhitePeopleDo condemned this, tho.
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So then Irish, French, Swedish, Jewish. If you were no longer simply “White” then you have four cultures to claim as your own. Those are the cultures you have besides being American. Why is that so hard?
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Because it’s wrong to go past a quarter and see people getting reprimanded for doing roots revivals.
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please explain
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@Michael Jon Barker
“Some white feminists combine gender and race as a way to ‘share’ in the oppression of non whites.”
Agreed, and I think gay whites do it too, as if the condition of being gay, which can be hidden is the same as being black, which normally cannot be hidden.
@Michael Cooper
“…reminding not only America but the entire world on how America can love Black culture…but hate or dislike Black people”
That’s how Country/Bluegrass/Folk music got started…a simultaneous imitation and mockery of African slaves:
…until they gradually “adopted” it as their own…
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@resw77, Country/Bluegrass & Folk music..Ain’t that some ish!? What don’t they steal, and what if anything, do they actually (creatively) “own”?
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can’t believe she played rue from the hunger games she grew up so much. The issue I have with ppl columbusing is that they will disrespect and not listen to the people within the culture they are trying to imitate. They will be racist and post things on their twitter and facebook then when they get backlash they wanna cry and say ppl are being mean. imo if u have more support from ppl that are not in the culture u are trying to be a part of u are problematic. These same ppl will take from other cultures and then when people within that culture speak out against it they will get more ppl that are not from said culture to agree with them and back them up, no that one token that agrees does not count.
When they don’t acknowledge the history behind certain traditions or cultures is a slap in the face. When u partake in black culture yet do not understand the opposition that it faces for existing or the demonization of the culture u are an appropriator. When u can’t acknowledge the role racism played in shaping black culture u are an appropriator. If u cannot acknowledge ur privilege and humble yourself don’t do it.
I could give two fk about iggy or Eminem they both trash black women and Iggy raps in gibberish.
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@ Origin
Well said!
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@Origin: You slayed on that post.
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@ Uriel @ Nathan t
There is a difference between borrowing and appropriation. This is what the two of you keep not understanding. If the post did not make the difference clear, then the comments certainly should have. The comments have plenty of examples and explanations. It is as if you are not reading them or can only read at a third-grade level.
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@ Kartoffel
It is not the Bill O’Reillys who are directly driving this. If that were true, then ALL White rappers or ALL White singers of a Black style of music would be seen as appropriators and they are not. Miley Cyrus, for example, used stereotypes about Blacks to shed her good-girl Disney image. Iggy Azalea is racist. This affects how people view their actions. Amy Winehouse, meanwhile, is not generally seen as an appropriator. She is just seen as someone who loved Black music, not someone trying to rip it off or make Blacks look bad.
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In no time, white rappers and hip-hop artists will take over hip-hop the same way they took hold of rock and roll from blacks. It seems like whatever whites take over, it goes south in almost no time. Mostly white executives took over how rap and hip-hop sound in the mainstream and look at it now, for the most part. It’s funny how they love black culture enough to want to incorporate it and run it to the ground for their own ends.
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Columbusing: When white people think they have discovered something they didn’t.
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Lol Mary! I have to remember that.
@Brothawaolf. It’s a very sad thought but as you shard we’ve seen this pattern before from Rock N Roll to Blues and R&B. The rap group EPMD said as much in their song Crossover. The lyrics warned that the industry was changing rap.
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@Mz. Nikita
The problem I have is that they denigrate it first and then slowly take over, like they did with jazz and rock
@Mary Burrell
“Columbusing: When white people think they have discovered something they didn’t.”
+1
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@Brothawolf
Yes, in the next 20 years, Hip Hop will be as white as Rock music was from the 70’s through the 90’s. It’s already happening. The biggest selling rappers of the last few years have been white. Macklemore completely threw out the rule book of Hip Hop that real Rap music comes from the ghetto. Even Eminem spent some of his teenage years in an all-black Detroit neighborhood. But Macklemore is just a self-professed white kid from Seattle; the statistically whitest big city in America. People that like Macklemore don’t even like Hip Hop, but they like sanitized Hip Pop coming from a white man’s mouth. White Queens, NY rapper Action Bronson completely stole Ghostface Killah’s style and his fans defending him are all white people who love Hip Hop coming from a white person’s mouth. Eminem easily is the most overrated rapper of all time just because he’s white. All Eminem’s beats sound the same. Cheap sounding emo depressed white kid basement beats with whiteboy themes like hating his mother and doing tons of drugs. White people love Eminem because he clearly never identified too much with black people enough to be ostracized by whites like say, Teena Marie or even Robin Thicke who had a black wife. Eminem said himself that he was “poor white trash” and that he was the new Elvis using black music to make himself wealthy. But it’s not just Hip Hop. A white person doing black music is almost guaranteed success once it goes viral even when said white person has no talent. For example, 15 year old Jordyn Jones has tens of millions of Youtube views for his music video covers of popular songs by black artists. Her cover songs get more views than the original songs and videos by black artists.
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@King
You’re right. I was gonna bring up some anecdotes on how it’s wrong to appropriate the struggles of my ancestors or how they’re evil because they supported racism on purpose. My problem is more along the lines of “how do i borrow stuff into my culture without ruining it for another” and “how do i change what artifact x means in my culture without ruining its meaning in another”. I want x artifact to mean y thing in my culture but z thing in theirs.
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Would Cinco de Mayo be culture appropriation?
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@Uriel:
I love halibut fish and chips Uriel(with a ton of gravy on the fries or poutine)! That is cultural approbation for you. Stay true to your white roots and just don’t give a s*** what the coloureds say. This calls for a jaunt to the fish and chip place to buy poutine!
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@Herneith
If you aren’t gonna answer the question, why are you responding to me.
@sharinalr
That’s not my realm to judge, and even if i had to i need more info. Is this a rhetorical question?
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Here’s a white artist on cultural appropriation.
Maybe any white people who are bugging us for explanations can go to him for answers they’ll respect.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/whiteness-goggles-cultural-appropriation-roger-peet_55a7f7d3e4b04740a3df470c?cps=gravity_1787_3703098382079852471
Excerpt
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In the images he created for the series, the history of violence and oppression endured by people of color quite literally becomes the backdrop for the quirky styles and awesome music of white people. Take for example his biting ode to Miley Cyrus. In the image above, she twerks before a crowd of armed policemen in Ferguson, Missouri. In another, Katy Perry poses in a geisha costume in front of an exploding atomic bomb.
“All of the people shown engaging in acts of cultural appropriation … are what you would call white,” Peet explained to The Huffington Post. “Behind them, in the red, is the rest of what whiteness means: the daily violence and brutality of a world system that is bent on turning everything — every sacred grove, every deep note, every singular moment — into an object of value for speculators.”
[…]
Specifically, Peet, who himself is white, is referencing what he claims is capitalism’s ability to spin lives, stories, traditions, even suffering, into profitable goods. “Capitalism invented whiteness in order to create a class of people that could parasitize the rest of the world,” he continued. “A people with no connection to history, divorced from place and context, engines of pure abstraction — which is what Capitalism is all about; the conversion of the complex, beautiful world into quantifiable units that can be speculated upon.”
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I don’t agree with his idea that it’s *all* about capitalism. Capitalism itself has a context. IT was CREATED by people who call themselves white; they were not passively created by it. So the issue is really white people not capitalism. Nonetheless, I do agree with his assessment of its role.
Here’s Amandla Steinberg when she schooled Kylie Jenner on cultural appropriation. But remember, she’s black so white people don’t have to pay attention to what she says!
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Appropriation occurs when a style leads to racist generalizations or stereotypes where it originated but is deemed as high-fashion, cool or funny when the privileged take it for themselves,” she explained in a video released in April.
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APPROPRIATE that definition because it’s succinct and ON POINT!
White people refuse to understand cultural appropriation because they are blind to their violence against others. After all context has been erased, they can consume cultural spoils guilt-free. That’s why the artist mentioned above provides “whiteness goggles” that will block out the inconvenient backdrops.
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@resw77, yes it irks me too-the denigrating, the capitalizing and especially the “whitewashed” (of all backgrounds) who ignorantly “Stan” for ’em!
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[…] Cultural appropriation is when you take something from another culture over the objections of that culture. It is cultural theft. It is especially common when racists borrow “cool stuff” from cultures whose people they look down on.It is that thing where if Black people do something, like twerking or wearing cornrows, it is looked down on as “ghetto” or “hood” or “unprofessional”, but when White people do the very same thing, it is suddenly admired as “cool” or “edgy” or “epic”. Continue reading […]
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@ Ms Too Good
“I could give two fk about iggy or Eminem they both trash black women and Iggy raps in gibberish”
And yet Eminem had the nerve to pen a letter to Pacs mother Afeni, one of the great Black Panthers showing “love” and “respect.”
http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/read-eminems-sentimental-letter-to-tupacs-mother-20150714
All I could wonder was where was the respect when he made that racist tape as a young rapper calling black people moon crickets and saying don’t get with black girls cuz they’ll take all your money.
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We have a long way to go. It is very clear White people won’t get it till they’re being oppressed. Buzzfeed recently posted an article as cultural appropriation happened again, a Beauty Magazine with a White girl telling you how to get curls.
Black people are mad and White people are of course as usually to any issue that doesn’t directly affect them oblivious, ignorant and lack of empathy. They’re even trying to tell Black people what we can and can’t be offended over.
They don’t seem to understand the difference between cultural exchange, assimilation, approriation and diffusion.
They keep making arguments that only continue to show how ignorant and blinded by White privilege they are.
Here are some examples I see: “If us White people are not allowed to have Afro hair than Black people aren’t allowed to use White inventions like the computer, cellphone, internet, TV, electricity and should go back to their African mud huts!”
“Why is it okay for Black people to straighten their hair, dye it blonde, and bleach their skin they’re technically stealing our culture!”
“Should it not be seen as a good thing that white society is finally embracing different hairstyles outside of the norm of ‘straight white hair’? Why must credit always be thrown out? It’s a beauty mag, not a history book. Every time a black woman dies her hair blonde or straightens it, it’s cool.”
“Why is nobody taking this as a compliment?”
These people were so oblivious that these comments were thumbs upped into the hundreds and thousands by White people while comments that were pointing out the truth and what the outrage is the ignore them or have some idiotic comeback that hundreds and thousands of White people thumb up so they feel like they’re right.
This was so infuriating that I had the urge to punch White people even my own best friend who is White.
I just wanted to scream at the White girl who wrote: “Why is it okay for Black people to straighten their hair, dye it blonde, and bleach their skin they’re technically stealing our culture!” Hey bimbo did it ever occur to you why some Black people do it?
White people are being oblivious to Black people’s features being made fun of for decades and the ones that do acknowledge it tell us to get over it even though it still goes on to this day. Hell a Black News reporter women in this century got fired for wearing her natural hair just because a White viewers didn’t like it even though she politely educated him on her natural hair.
First off people aren’t cool with Black women straightening their hair, people are always questioning if their straightened hair is real or not. White just wanna seem to forget the pyschological damage they did to Black people and think because of some “official” date everything got peachy like “Oh slavery ended 200 years ago you wasn’t even born to see it.” First of 200 years is still recent enough along with the discrimination and destroyed minds.
White people won’t get it till minorities start culturally appropriating theirs. So everyone that isn’t white dress up like Leperchuans, Lederhosens, and any other European stuff and wear it casually and not the way it is intended.
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@SnailHail
“It is very clear White people won’t get it till they’re being oppressed.”
So we deserve oppression.
“Black people are mad and White people are of course as usually to any issue that doesn’t directly affect them oblivious, ignorant and lack of empathy.”
The same arguments are said for a complex topic and it is expected of us to magically get it. Moreover, plenty always assume what i mean rather than listen to me.
“They don’t seem to understand the difference between cultural exchange, assimilation, appropriation and diffusion.”
As if we have a culture to exchange, nope, we have colonial bullshit instead. You see our cultures as permanently lesser than yours and then wonder why we’d rather be something or someone else. Besides, if we did have a culture that is worth practicing, we’d have it stuck in stasis because taking foreign influences is wrong.
Besides, we need a REAL and GOOD identity and presence like you all have, but nope, we benefit from privilege (despite the fact we can’t control whether we do or not), so we are always lesser by the world’s majority. Fuck mainstream white society, i only care about their heartless opinions if my or somebody’s life depends on it. If that society hates you, you are doing something right.
“They keep making arguments that only continue to show how ignorant and blinded by White privilege they are.”
I will be the first to admit the average white person is either trying to appropriate or being outright ignorant. Yet you lump us all in the same boat for shit we cannot control.
“White just wanna seem to forget the psychological damage they did to Black people and think because of some “official” date everything got peachy like “Oh slavery ended 200 years ago you wasn’t even born to see it.” First of 200 years is still recent enough along with the discrimination and destroyed minds.”
You say ‘they’, like i’m the same fucking person as the actual perps of slavery. I also always hear “we can’t do it so neither should you” as if that contributes to anything in any way.
If you don’t mean me, how come their is no single solitary example of a white person who has successfully practiced cultural diffusion? Why is creating a culture evil, but roots revivals are abhorrent?
“White people won’t get it till minorities start culturally appropriating theirs. So everyone that isn’t white dress up like Leperchuans, Lederhosens, and any other European stuff and wear it casually and not the way it is intended”
Go ahead, just don’t call it something it’s not. Nobody wears bindis and isn’t SE Asian, they wear forehead piercings. Nobody wears dreads and isn’t Black, they’re imitating computer wires. Nobody wears tattoos, they dye their skin- a thing that existed in Europe before Christianization.
Why must x thing mean y value in every culture? Su means water in Azeri but fire in Vask (Basque). Also, i cannot change its ultimate meaning no matter how hard i try.
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the tuning fork on this is simple.
just ask a more innocuous question about a band like, Green Day. say, “so, what about Green Day?” and you will get a steady stream of people who say they just appropriated real punk etc. etc. but those same people will get upset when the appropriation is drawn along racial lines.
im not sure where the line is, but it is clear. people like Eric Clapton have dedicated huge chunks of their lives to giving credit to black blues guitarists and artists and music. the same seems to be the case with Eminem. other people, much less so. maybe it’s the lack of respect shown to the culture that is the problem, not necessarily the appropriation itself?
and it’s deeply unfair because it’s “melting pot” in situations that are basically stealing, but the separate and equal “multi-culture”-verse on everything else.
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It’s not that simple, Eminem and Eric Clapton are still scrutinized for the smallest of faults. It’s the appropriation itself, they see as ‘taking’ and ‘mocking’ when it’s utterly impossible to definitively do either.
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nothing in society is that simple. but at least someone like Clapton or Eminem could point to all they have done to raise awareness and give credit. that counts.
the real test is how people react when you remove race from the picture. for example, just talk about the stark reality of how when an ugly guy tells a joke no one laughs but when a good-looking guy tells a joke everyone laughs. this is uncontroversial and most people would agree that’s a defect, not feature, of society. once you insert race, the entire conversation changes and becomes this huge abstraction and verbal diarrhea of rationalization.
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If you have no solutions and are only here to restate what abagond said, why talk?
Nobody here is arguing whites deserve to genuinely steal or mock a culture. Nobody anywhere is.
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i do have a solution and it has helped enlighten many people i have talked to (or at the very least make it very apparent that they are racist). simply ask how they feel about the same phenomenon with some other superficial characteristic substituted for race.
‘Nobody here is arguing whites deserve to genuinely steal or mock a culture. Nobody anywhere is.’
this is probably the toughest to come to terms with, but it’s real: we all pay for the sins of our fathers. you seem to have a “not all white people” approach to this. history doesn’t go away because “i’m not the one who did it,” and the meaning people attach to you doing certain things because of skin color doesn’t either.
black people are constantly judged for the actions of many other black people every day. black people have to suffer because of a history they didn’t create or live too. but who cares, they aren’t you, right?
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“I do have a solution and it has helped enlighten many people i have talked to (or at the very least make it very apparent that they are racist). simply ask how they feel about the same phenomenon with some other superficial characteristic substituted for race.”
Of course it’s bullshit, but how is pretty man responsible for the crowd? Pretty man is not omnipotent man.
“This is probably the toughest to come to terms with, but it’s real: we all pay for the sins of our fathers. you seem to have a “not all white people” approach to this. history doesn’t go away because “i’m not the one who did it,” and the meaning people attach to you doing certain things because of skin color doesn’t either.”
Oh, so i deserve to be judged for being born a certain way because they see me as the same as my cohorts? What makes their view of me valid? Besides, no matter how hard i try it could always be undone by ONE white acting up.
“Black people are constantly judged for the actions of many other black people every day. black people have to suffer because of a history they didn’t create or live too. but who cares, they aren’t you, right?”
Black people don’t deserve this shit either, and yes i do try to counter it whenever; why is the solution to bullshit more bullshit?
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Why is my comment still in moderation?
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Okay, it’s out of moderation, thanks abagond.
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NOW, you’re stumped. How hard can it be to fucking spare me a listen, i’m not repeating words.
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Here’s another example, this time from a Chinese American perspective:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/08/31/childhood-friends-called-my-food-chinese-grossness-how-did-it-become-americas-hottest-food-trend/
Victims of cultural appropriation experience degradation of their culture when they authentically live it but observe white people being praised for acting out the same culture they’re shamed for. That’s the two-pronged nature of cultural appropriation.
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^
Reading that article from the Washington Post, I am not sure it is a case of cultural appropriation, or a case of Chinese-Americans finally succeeding in marketing products to appeal to a wider spectrum of white taste buds.
It would be cultural appropriation if white people took that and did the marketing and the cooking, but it seems more likely that it could have been Chinese-Americans that promoted this “new trend” among white people.
The whole entire history of Chinese food in America is about the promotion of food that they could make that would appeal to whites. Now, if they can take some more “authentic” food and widen its appeal to make it trendy to whites, I don’t consider that to be cultural appropriation if it is Chinese who are doing that. It would contradict the first paragraph of this post.
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Yeah, if it’s Chinese Americans succeeding in marketing it and preparing it for others, it’s not cultural appropriation. As you said, that’s not what the first paragraph suggests so perhaps there is more to the story.
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@Uriel
NOW, you’re stumped. How hard can it be to fucking spare me a listen, i’m not repeating words.
Hardly. I just didn’t see that you responded.
how is pretty man responsible for the crowd?
A) Pretty man doesn’t deserve the credit and B) Pretty man illustrates a problem with the crowd.
Critiques about cultural appropriation are critiques about the crowd and about how the individual rewarded by the crowd does not truly deserve the rewards.
so i deserve to be judged for being born a certain way because they see me as the same as my cohorts
If blacks receive that treatment, why should you not receive that treatment? Are you saying that blacks should receive that treatment but, because it hurts your feelings to be treated in a similar but much less severe way, they should not return the favor?
why is the solution to bullshit more bullshit?
People of group A treat people of group B a certain way based on how group B looks. Group B learns to deal with people from Group A based on this treatment.
You apparently believe the response of Group B is ‘bullshit.’
The only ‘bullshit’ here is coming from you.
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@swank
Oh, you didn’t see… apologies for losing it then. I won’t break my temper again.
Anyway:
—
I didn’t say blacks (for instance) deserve that treatment. I even try not to give blacks that treatment. Why are you blaming me for the actions of a multitude i cannot definitely control?
I understand initial wariness and mistrust for all white people, even me. You do not know the enough about me, so dodging and occasionally hostility makes sense.
But why does it have to be that way forever no matter how much i prove myself to not be a jerk? You are blaming me for ruining the world based on actions i, personally had no control over. Why is treating me like a lesser okay even if you know more than plenty about me. Very few white people are anti-racist*, but even fewer are genuinely dangerous or malevolent. Otherwise, people like Christopher Columbus would be seen as normal. That said, i get behind the fear, and i understand how it’d work out if you didn’t know me.
You also are complaining about the crowd, but why is the crowd every white person regardless of actual personal history or position of power? I do not run talk shows that shame black women’s hair, i don’t run magazines that mock black men as “th-gs”, and i certainly won’t ever kill, maim, rob, rape, or relentlessly bully anyone for a known detriment. I also probably wouldn’t stand for it if i had any decent amount of power.
The credit? Okay, i don’t deserve what i didn’t earn, but i do not wish to outright steal profits and success from black people, and i doubt many revolve their lives around such jealousy. I just wanna incorporate w, x, y, and z parts of a culture into something b thus making them c, d, e, and f, while you also retain w, x, y, and z artifacts and c-f artifacts. I don’t have a culture that’s good enough for all in-the-know poc, why can’t i create a new one based on my ideals.
Also, if critiques were usually about the credit, why is it always something like “DJ Lethal shouldn’t turntable.”, or “Benny Goodman shouldn’t play jazz.”, not “Benny Goodman and DJ Lethal should not praised as highly as they are.”.
I wasn’t angry as i wrote THIS, btw.
*I know whites can’t be anti-racist, i just don’t know a better term.
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@swank
I have a long comment in moderation, just to let you know so keep your eyes on the thread.
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i posted on this some time ago, i feel like the guy in the masthead searching through scrolls for arcane knowledge in this case a comment i made over a year ago, i can’t find it…
something like what is the difference in culture, ie working, driving cars, going to church, paying taxes, dressing western etc etc but everything’s negotiable of course.
but anyway/in light of (since i was unaware of this before ie bassmint tapes) this whole thing with eminem, draws a sad arrow directly (for me anyway) to what is probably the genesis of ‘black american culture’ ie slaves singing (and yoruba myth)
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Hey sharinalr. I’m srry that I bothered you. But I guess I just don’t understand the way you said engage in it, so just to be clear nog all jewlery is pocs. Whites have made jewlery before, I’m just wandering if it appropriation for whites to own certain things like knives or guns when there basic tools
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Why are you blaming me for the actions of a multitude i cannot definitely control?
Because that’s how society works. Did you not get the memo? Newsflash: I’m white and all of this makes perfect sense to me.
But why does it have to be that way forever no matter how much i prove myself to not be a jerk?
Why does every catholic have to fight against stereotypes about catholics, why do the Irish have to deal with stereotypes about being Irish, etc. etc. etc.
How hard is it to admit to a potential cognitive bias and, whenever someone says ‘you don’t understand my experience,’ just….admitting that you don’t! It’s very easy. It will set you free!
You become better by embracing your limitations and flaws, not denying them. The circumstances we face in the United States are difficult to transcend. We are only human and the product of these circumstances. So a) if you really try to treat everyone fairly, good, keep it up, and b) if people still don’t trust you, realize that that’s their right and that you simply do not understand their experience. A little sonder will go a long way.
I just wanna incorporate w, x, y, and z parts of a culture into something b thus making them c, d, e, and f,
Many people were already doing ‘b,’ and no one cared. Only when they added w, x, y, z, and the ‘incorporator’ happened to look “right” did the money start flowing in.
“DJ Lethal shouldn’t turntable.”, or “Benny Goodman shouldn’t play jazz.”, not “Benny Goodman and DJ Lethal should not praised as highly as they are.”.
When people are angry they overstate whatever their feelings are. Rather than trying to combat and invalidate their feelings (which is what you are engaged in, consciously or not), you need to search for what the true meaning is. In this case, most of the critique boils down to ‘it’s unfair and unjust that X gets the credit for what Y created just for looking a certain way.’
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People overstating themselves, fine, i’ll ignore it and lay low. But when they tell me that when perfectly fine, so no, they don’t just care about the credit. They see all whites as an abomination for things they cannot control. Again, i want usage, not credit, until i actually innovate it in a way. How can culture progress without diffusion and exchange?
By the way i didn’t mean a culture in one of my previous paragraphs, i meant “a” culture, using the lowercase letter “a” as a variable. Please re-read said paragraph and answer all the grievances i have in it. You ignored a few things. If you answered them covertly or with other questions, let me know, i can’t read your thoughts.
I will never understand their experience, but they will also never get mine. It is heartless to say something along the lines of “you deserved to break your arm because some people are born amputees”. Otherwise, tell poc to stop carping on my culture and recommending roots revivals to cultures i am nothing like. You can’t say “you will never have a good culture” AND “you can’t join my culture”.
Nobody, i repeat, nobody wants to remove poc from their culture as much as they want to join theirs. Forget the impact, it’s about the intent, because that’s what anybody can control . I am not omnipotent. You’re asking me to be omnipotent and accept i am lesser piece of it that will never be as good as poc FOR BEING BORN A CERTAIN WAY.
What did you think i said in my last post? Did you translate it as if i was hiding a message?
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But when
= but no, they’re really bad can’t you see!
i meant
= to characterize ‘my’ actions that others view as theft in a self-serving light. Realize that what it is you are saying is EXACTLY what the good-looking man WOULD say in our example above. He will say ‘but no, I INNOVATED, I….’
And I directly answered you. b = combining w x y z. Many people already were doing ‘b’ and no one cared. It’s only when someone did ‘b’ AND LOOKED THE CORRECT WAY, that people noticed.
I will never understand their experience, but they will also never get mine.
Constant evasion, distraction, and dissemblance. Here is the problem. Many more people “understand your experience” than understand theirs. The government was made for YOUR experience. The society was made for YOUR experience.
It is heartless to say something along the lines of “you deserved to break your arm because some people are born amputees”.
It’s not about “deserve” it’s about reality. One group is systematically oppressed and has a rational reaction to that treatment. There’s collateral damage. Problems like yours are low on the priority list and they will be better ameliorated by accepting the biases you have.
You’re not even at step 1: admitting you have a problem. You can’t admit it. You can’t even admit the appropriation as theft happens. Instead you want to talk about how no it’s innovation and you don’t deserve this and blah blah blah blah blah.
You’re asking me to be omnipotent
I said “admit to a potential cognitive bias and, whenever someone says ‘you don’t understand my experience,’ just….[admit] that you don’t.” You interpret this to mean that I am asking you to be omnipotent.
What did you think i said in my last post? Did you translate it as if i was hiding a message?
You are saying this in every single comment: I am not racist I could never be racist all of these things that you think I could possibly do I would never do it’s someone else I’m not part of it stop trying to connect me to it, stop trying to lump me in with society I can’t be I can’t be I can’t be. Protecting my feelings is more important than recognizing the valid emotions of others.
I translate every comment as if someone were hiding a message, because no one comes out and says what they actually mean or feel, especially not in this society.
The key to true communication actually starts with this principle: never invalidate someone’s emotions. If the words don’t seem to rationally connect to the emotions, then use your brain and figure out where the disconnect is.
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1. I can’t magically guess what somebody means, i assume by default they are being straightforward.
2. I mean what i say, please respond as if i mean what i say. I don’t believe in circuitousness.
3. How are their feelings of seeing me as lesser valid when i did nothing to them and i can’t control my privilege?
4. Innovation means change, not theft; for instance you wouldn’t say They Might Be Giants are playing the same music as Chuck Berry. Their misery does nothing for me, and culture cannot progress w/ out diffusion. You really think i just want them to have nothing?
5. I do not have a good culture, i have colonial b.s.. They do have good culture. Therefore i am entitled to take elements of their culture to make a new one.
6. I know i’m racist, but i can’t control it so why does it matter. You are punishing me for something i cannot control.
7. Yeah, i don’t have the same caliber of distress as poc, but it takes two seconds to solve my problems: JUST START SEEING ME AS HUMAN. How much can it hurt to see me as a person not a cancer cell. How is seeing me as a cancer cell rational? Humans are individuals not groups.
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For the record, i do know MOST poc see me as human. Likewise, i do not support genuine mockery.
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I can’t magically guess what somebody means, i assume by default they are being straightforward.
Give me a break. Is that why most of communication is non-verbal? Is that why humans are naturally adept at discerning meaning and moods independent of words?
I mean what i say, please respond as if i mean what i say.
First, you asked if I assessed your comments in this manner and my reply was indicate that yes, I do. Second, if you are limiting my impressions and responses to you to the limited universe of your perception of yourself, then you are closing off discussion. If others perceive you as X but you keep saying your words mean Y and you know you mean Y, then self-reflection may be a wise move.
How are their feelings of seeing me as lesser valid when i did nothing to them and i can’t control my privilege?
Who says anything about them seeing you as a “lesser?” Mistrust and wariness != lesser or inferior.
Innovation means change, not theft
But many thieves say they are innovators: they’d be stupid not to! You are trying to simplify a complex world.
I do not have a good culture, i have colonial b.s.
Nonsense. The Magna Carta and Charter of the Forest are parts of so-called “white” culture. The key to these documents (and most any other worthwhile philosophy in the west) lies in the recognition that one’s own senses are faulty (that is why due process is observed, because the mob may and often is wrong). There are good elements in all cultures and here you are ignoring good elements in your own by failing to question your perceptions and intuitions.
I know i’m racist, but i can’t control it so why does it matter. You are punishing me for something i cannot control.
Ah. We are getting somewhere. First, it is not true that you “can’t control” it. It’s not a natural part of the human condition. Second, a character flaw is a character flaw.
JUST START SEEING ME AS HUMAN
You need to extend the same courtesy to others first and stop invalidating their emotions.
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1. I do see them as human, hence why i leave poc alone when they tell me they don’t wanna get into a argument, and proceed argue only with other whites who are in their good graces. I don’t really care about mistrust and wariness, just their antagonism. Their antagonistic feelings towards me, personally aren’t justified and never will be until i actually have a history of being a rapist, killer, or maimer.
By the way, as we speak, i am doing nothing out of my way to advance their suffering (up to and including leaving their cultures alone), i haven’t done any activist work with poc because i think i will only be enough to intheknow poc when i give up any sense of pride AND shame, and i avoid other whites because i don’t know the answers yet- hence why i’m here.
2. I hate pulling this as much as you hate hearing this, but i have Asperger’s. I cannot tell non-verbal cues as easily as you can. Likewise, we’re online, so body gestures are impossible and emoticons do next to nothing.
3. I am lesser than poc because go on tumblr or outside of here on wordpress or a poc-run news source where most poc have safety. They hate all European cultures and since i am a part of that culture and i can’t make a new one or rejoin others’ i am lesser. If being the oppressor is bad, and i will always be such, why bother doing much besides sitting around?
My culture has done good and their culture has done bad, sure, but it’s incredibly minute compared to my bad and their good- at least according to them. I do not know whether my and all other whites’ being is evil or if i white people deserve any sort of leeway, admirance, and kindness from poc.
Of course, the most of society does like me, but the whites in it are murderers, thieves, and rapists and the poc in it are full of internalized racism. Why should i trust them or operate my life as if what they is gospel?
4. If you are indeed not changing around what i say, why are you ignoring my other questions?
5. So European cultures should stay in stasis and live in a collective Miracle Village? Besides, it’s not like they or the artifacts will die or even get hurt. Besides, the magna carta and that forest thing are stolen from poc ideas or built over poc lives- according to them. And again, i need not respect anyone who won’t see me as human no matter what. You don’t just wake up, start hating me for LOOKING like an asshole, and deserve my benefit of the doubt under any circumstances.
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Forgot some:
6. I am only talking about some poc. My rage is not directed at each and every one. Just the ones that do hate me. And even then i still have respect for them, because at least their anger, misguided as it is, is coming from a real place unlike whites in the know, who so far have been impatient.
7. Oh, i can just magically have ultimate control over my racism? What have i personally, done to them? Benefiting from privilege is not in my control. How is wanting to be seen as an equal a fee-fee?
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Are you here, swank?
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I’ve always wondered how Eminem was perceived in this sense. I mean, I know next to nothing about hip hop so I can’t judge his talent (or lack thereof). But he seems to be somewhat accepted (in lack of a better word) mainly because he never pretended to be anything else than a white trash and for being somewhat aware of his white privilege. Also, he did grow up in Detroit so he didn’t like about it. I don’t know.
As for Tupac’s mother, I thought they were on good enough terms. She allowed him to produce a Tupac’s album I believe so perhaps that’s that?
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View at Medium.com
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Is this cultural appropriation?
9 Times Non-Asians Completely Screwed Up Asian Food And We Lost Our Appetites
(http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/non-asians-screw-up-asian-food_us_59011e43e4b0af6d718b4058)
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I don’t know, but I never got cultural appropriation in the first place.
If someone thinks that “banana sushi” or “Pho With Broccoli And Quinoa” tastes good, why then should someone else be angry?
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@Jefe
I didn’t read the whole article, but the food truck that was white girl Asian food I would says it is cultural appropriation. Don’t call it Asian food when it is just your white concoction.
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re:Jeff Elberfeld
The banana sushi was not sushi at all and the Broccoli /Quinoa dish was not Pho at all, which by definition must be thinly sliced rice noodles and thinly sliced raw beef dropped in boiling soup.
Should you call something North Carolina pulled pork barbecue with southern cole slaw, and charge top dollar for it, if it not only is not NC style, but also is not pork, not pulled and not barbecue with kimchi substituted for cole slaw, in restaurants near the US army bases in South Korea operated by local Koreans who have never been to the US mainland, only to make money from it (esp. from local Korean customers who think they are eating authentic American stuff) when there are 10,000 US army personnel at the adjacent base who object to the restaurant using the term to sell a fake item?
@Sharina,
I was most offended by the “explosive dumplings”. That is not how you eat that and not how you use chopsticks; it really made me sick to watch that video. Really a gross misrepresentation.
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I was wondering how Abagond and his blog readership weigh in on the charge against Bruno Mars for black cultural appropriation, especially since racial and ethnic appropriation discussion has emerged again in other threads of late.
He was born in Hawaii with a Filipino mother and a Puerto Rican / Ashkenazi Jewish father, but has adopted themes in his musical expression that look like they have been borrowed from motifs associated with blacks. And he wins Grammy Awards for that.
Some people, including some of the commenters on this blog, had assumed that he must be black or part black somehow. If that were the case, then they would argue that he is not guilty of cultural appropriation.
However, for those that feel otherwise, he might be guilty as charged.
Is there any right or wrong here that can help us figure out what is appropriate?
He may have some African ancestry through his Puerto Rican paternal grandfather, but it is probably less than 10% and something that he was not raised to identify with.
From my point of view, this is a universal dilemma for many Hapa and multiracial people. Any choices they make are somehow suspect or challengeable.
Bruno Mars was accused of cultural appropriation. Charlie Wilson, among others, defended him.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/03/12/bruno-mars-was-accused-of-cultural-appropriation-charlie-wilson-among-others-defended-him/
After Bruno Mars is accused of cultural appropriation, black celebrities come to his defense
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/03/12/entertainment/bruno-mars-cultural-appropriation-reaction-trnd/index.html
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