The Confederate flag (1861), properly known as the Confederate battle flag, was never the national flag of the Confederacy, the slave states of the American South that broke away from the US, starting the Civil War. Instead it is a rectangular version of Robert E. Lee’s battle flag:
The 1861 national flag of the Confederacy looked too much like the US flag to be useful in battle:
The redesigned 1863 flag was terrible too: it looked too much like a white flag of surrender:
So the use Lee’s battle flag spread, in rectangular form, becoming the most common battle flag by the end of the war.
What it stood for: On the eve of the Civil War, the vice president of the Confederacy said the government’s “cornerstone” rests upon:
“the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery – subordination to the superior race – is his natural and moral condition.”
After the Civil War, the battle flag was used to honour Confederate veterans at funerals, graves and parades.
By the 1920s it had become a symbol of the American South. It was used, for example, by college football fans in the South when playing against Northern teams.
In the 1940s:
- White Southern servicemen in the Second World War flew it in both Europe and the Pacific.
- The Klan began to use it.
- Dixiecrats, Democrats led by Strom Thurmond who opposed President Truman’s civil rights policies, used it.
In the late 1950s and early 1960s, its use became way more common, by the Klan and by Whites who opposed the civil rights movement. In 1956 it became part of the flag of Georgia (till 2001). In 1962 the battle flag flew over the capitol building of South Carolina. In 1963 it flew over the capitol of Alabama. In 1964 it was more common in some parts of Mississippi than the US flag (and is still part of the state flag).
By the 1970s, the flag lost much of its political value: school desegregation was a done deal and Blacks could vote.
But it still flew over the capitol of South Carolina.
In 2000, the NAACP pushed to have it taken down. They staged a boycott. Nearly 50,000 marched on the capitol. The flag came down – but then, as a compromise, it was raised in front of the capitol at a Confederate soldier memorial, still on public property.
In 2015, Dylann Roof, a Confederate-flag waving White supremacist, gunned down nine Blacks at a Bible study in the Charleston Massacre. Now even Republicans like Mitt Romney, Jeb Bush and the governor herself say the flag should come down.
According to a YouGov poll in 2013:
- 66% of Blacks and 63% of Democrats see the flag as a symbol of racism.
- 60% of Whites and 72% of Republicans see it as a symbol of Southern pride.
Its supporters say that it represents “heritage not hate”. Even though that is better than their naked Jim Crow racism of the early 1960s, no one but a skinhead would say such a thing about the Nazi flag.
– Abagond, 2015.
Update (June 24th): Walmart, eBay, Sears, Amazon and Etsy will no longer sell stuff with the Confederate flag on it. Mississippi is looking at removing it from their state flag. In Alabama the governor took down the Confederate flag flying at the capitol there.
Update (June 27th): Bree Newsome (pictured above) climbed the flag pole at the South Carolina capitol and took down the flag! They arrested her and put it back up.
Update (July 2nd): TV Land, an American channel that plays old television shows, has dropped “The Dukes of Hazzard” (1979-1985). The show featured a car with a Confederate flag on its roof (pictured below). It appeared in many a car chase.
Update (July 6th): Debate begins today among South Carolina lawmakers on a proposed law to bring down the Confederate flag. There is reportedly enough votes to pass it. It could be signed by the governor as soon as July 9th.
Update (July 9th): The governor of South Carolina has signed the law to take down the Confederate flag.
Update (July 10th): The Confederate flag at the South Carolina state capitol has just been taken down – after 53 years.
Update (October 28th): The University of Mississippi, aka Ole Miss, has taken down the state flag because the Confederate battle flag is part of its design (pictured below).
Sources: Mainly YouGov, John Coski interview on NPR, BBC, “The Confederate and Neo-Confederate Reader” (2010) edited by James W. Loewen and Edward H. Sebesta.
See also:
- Bree Newsome
- Dylann Roof, the Last Rhodesian
- Jim Crow racism
- Mitt Romney
- uses
- The N-word
- The Southern Strategy
624
Some people had to die before they acted on taking this racist filth down? SMH.
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Since the KKK and other white supremacist groups appropriated this flag as a source of white pride, it’s nothing but a symbol of hatred. Down with the confederate flag.
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Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth…” – Alexander H. Stephens, Vice Pres. of the Confederacy, March 21st, 1861
A law enforcement official said witnesses told authorities the gunman (Dylan Roof) stood up and said he was there “to shoot black people.”
U.S. Senator Lindsey Graham: “The Confederate flag is ‘who we are.” – June 19th, 2015
Mike Huckabee: ‘One Racist Lunatic’ Doesn’t Mean The Confederate Flag Is Problematic.” – June 21st, 2015
Bobby Jindal – Gov. of Louisiana: “Law enforcement will figure out what his so-called motivations were.” – June 22ns, 2015
@@@@@@@
* If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.
* Think of the press as a great keyboard on which the government can play. – Joseph Goebbels
It is absolutely stunning to witness today’s politicians elementary level of maneuvering and denial, just to score a few political points. I’m quite certain that Joseph Goebbels, the Nazi propaganda mastermind would be proud of the Amerikan white man today and its corporate owned media machinery.
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Indeed, it is so obvious that a bunch of woven together threads have the magical power to hold down 40 million people.
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The news seems to be that Walmart has decided to ban items with the rebel flag, and that is how it should be.
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..Well, at least there is something positive that Wallyworld is doing these days! As for the U.S. flag, yes the sight of makes me want to vomit for the reasons you listed above, Kiwi!
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This was some very good and thought out research, Abagond.
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I would agree with Leigh. At this point, you can go to just about every White Supremacist website and find the “Star’s and Bars” featured as part of the racist symbology. That battle flag has become too closely associated with racism.
What would be interesting to see is the reaction of Southern Whites if the Flag of the Confederacy was raised over the war memorial.Most of the people arguing about the “historical significance” of the battle flag wouldn’t even recognize the Flag of the Confederacy, at first. And since (for some reason) it is never used by racist organizations, it would be interesting to see how they would react.
I predict that they would still call for the Racist-embraced Battle flag to be restored, proving what this is really all about.
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I was taught as a child to be proud of my Southern heritage, then taught that I can never be accepted as American. That flag caused me to hate myself. It is a symbol of hate, or pride in that hate.
That flag is LONG past its “best before” date. It should have gone a long time ago, at least from public display.
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Leigh204,
The flag wasn’t appropriated by white supremacists. It was created by and for them and has always been racist.
Kiwi, the American flag is different because it represents a country that didn’t/doesnt live up to its ideals of equality for all. The Confederate flag represents a country that lived up to its ideals of white supremacy.
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Even if we take its racist symbolism out of the picture, the rebel flag is completely treasonous. They broke from the union and they lost. That flag shouldn’t be flying anywhere. It should be relegated to museum exhibits. The confederate stars and bars stands for nothing honorable and there is nothing to be proud of. Even if it wasn’t the clear symbol of hatred and chattel slavery that it is, it would still have been a symbol of treason and not suitable to fly over any government building or memorial for thay matter.
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@ solesearch:
The history of white supremacists especially the Ku Klux Klan used the good ol’ Stars and Stripes originally and as time went on, these clowns also adopted the confederate flag.
I feel ill posting these pics.
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@Lord of Murkwood
It’s also a nation that owes its existence to the desolation of countless First Nations and has decided for the second time that Voting Rights will not be protected by the courts. Critique your patriotism; the nation-state is an amoral war-machine that is concerned only with its survival and aggrandizement. The US is no different in this respect.
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Lord of NOTHING (Mirkwood) said: “The American flag is that of a nation that stood up to the Confederates and whose president freed the slaves. It is the symbol of a nation which sought to enact civil rights laws in the defeated South. Your moral compass must have taken a break from functioning today, because it bears no similarities to the battle flag of Dixie, a symbol of hate and oligarchy.”
You’re so darn funny. In reality, the slaves free themselves because the Union was getting their butt kicked by the Confederates. Then Pres. Lincoln, with his racist ass, decided to allow the enlistment of black slaves to “SAVE THE UNION,” not to actually free the slaves. Pres. Lincoln freed NOTHING, just like your name signifies.
Also, Kiwi wasn’t referring to the physical similarities between the racist Amerikan flag and the Confederacy’s as you attempted to argue. He was referring to the overall behavior of whites, their lack of humanity, the infliction of systematic brutality and their cruel deeds under either flags targeting black people. In short, they’re both Effing symbols of racist governmental systems.
Therefore, don’t try to sanitize the behavior of whites under the Amerikan flag because you certainly cannot wash away history. THANKS FOR SHOWING US WHO YOU ARE, … AGAIN!
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Kiwi gets it.
The people who believe in flags are the same people who believe arbitrary lines drawn on the planet determine human value.
My son graduated last week and I didn’t feel like standing for the pledge of allegiance.
The day we have a flagless planet will be the day that racism wont have any power.
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“My son graduated last week and I didn’t feel like standing for the pledge of allegiance.” @MJB, Kudos to you if you exercised Your Right not to at that time-..reminds me of when I was standing during the “Pledge” at a ceremony a couple years ago, and a lot o’ folks were staring at me because #1) I wasn’t singing it, and #2) I was proudly wearing a Canadian t-shirt! lols
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“The day we have a flagless planet will be the day that racism wont have any power.”
Well, at least nationalism won’t… racism may still persist!
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@ blakksage @ taleoflions
Please address other commenters by their actual names or a shortened version thereof. For example, you can call Lord of Mirkwood “Lord”, “Mirkwood” “Mirk”, “LOM”, “Lord M”, etc, but NOT “Lord of NOTHING” or “Lord of Murkwood”. Otherwise I will delete you comments.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
I agree with Kiwi. The winners write the history books. The main reason the Confederate and Nazi flags are seen as “racist” while the US flag is not is because of who won. The US is not less racist – it too has practised genocide and slavery. It just has a better army.
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Lord of Mirkwood seems to think it was only the Southern Confederate sympathizers who were so racist and the Northern Union armies “liberated” the ones the Southerners oppressed. Likewise, it was the English/Scottish in America that were racist, not the Irish.
I spent much of my childhood and youth in both Jim Crow Alabama and in “Irish” Boston during the mandatory school busing era. How can one call the violence coming from the Irish-Americans in Bostons benign while pointing fingers at the Scots-Irish in Alabama? Just because the ones in Alabama raised the Confederate flag?
I more or less agree with Kiwi’s analogy with racist uncles, but I’m not comfortable that he was the one who invoked it.
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OMG!
Said by someone who has never spent much time in the Deep South?
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Following the arguments about the Confederate Flag online, I keep hearing this idea that many Southerners didn’t, in fact, believe in Slavery and that the flag was really appropriated by racists much later… Let me not argue that for the time being…
Yet, even that take on things raises some serious questions. What did the open-minded and egalitarian Southerner do when he found that his venerated and sacred symbol was being “stolen” and defiled by the vile and injurous racist? The answer?
NOTHING.
When have you ever heard of the ancestors of Confederate soldiers marching in protest for the MISAPPROPRIATION of their wartime relic? When have they ever taken the Klan or Neo Nazi’s to task for their use of the Battle Flag? Where was the outrage? Where was the Anger?
Even if it were true that the “Stars & Bars” was a completely innocent symbol (which it is not) the historians and preservationists lost that symbol TO THE KLAN years ago. If they want to point to a time when they lost their flag, they should point to the place were racists first began using it on their publications, and no one in the South objected.
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I am not being smug about the Confederacy or the South.
I am also not being smug about the Union side or the North.
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Kiwi, if they would fly the “stars “& bars” or even the stainless banner or the bloodsoaked banner, nobody would care as much.
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“Lord of Mirkwood @ Jefe :And whose side would you have taken in the Civil War: Davis, treason, racism, and slavery; or Lincoln, freedom, union, and equality? And by the way, Thomas Jefferson DID write the words which I quoted.”
Linda says,
Lord of Mirkwood, to add to Jefe’s point, which you seem to be missing, is that NEITHER side gave a sh’t about black people.
Lincoln was just as bad as Jefferson (he was part of a group that wanted to DEPORT black people) — the ONLY reason the North fought the civil war, was to keep the Confederate southern states from forming their own dam Country– nothing more, nothing less
and emancipation of the slaves was a military policy Lincoln used to undermine the Confederate states. Lincoln did one thing that he knew would cripple the South– by allowing the runaway slaves to fight in the Union Army, he would increase the armies numbers
and by freeing the slaves, he knew he would interrupt the Souths productivity, by interfering with their ability to make MONEY — cheap labor costs, cheap raw material, high sales prices equals Profit.
“Lincoln didn’t believe blacks should have the same rights as whites.
In their fourth debate, at Charleston, Illinois, on September 18, 1858, Lincoln made his position clear. “I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races,” he began, going on to say that he opposed blacks having the right to vote, to serve on juries, to hold office and to intermarry with whites. What he did believe was that, like all men, blacks had the right to improve their condition in society and to enjoy the fruits of their labor. In this way they were equal to white men, and for this reason slavery was inherently unjust.”
http://www.history.com/news/5-things-you-may-not-know-about-lincoln-slavery-and-emancipation
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I’m from the Caribbean and I’ve mentioned this time and time again:
both the Confederate southern States and the President of the United States, James Buchanan, worked as one, in trying to expand into the Caribbean or central America as a means of either expanding their Land grab and slavery.
Both northern activist, US Presidents and congressmen, and big corporations like Cornelius Vanderbilt (CNNs Anderson Coopers great+ grandfather) supported unauthorized military expeditions into foreign countries—such as William Walker, who overthrew the government of Nicaragua 1856-57)
“Fueled by his supporters and backed by U.S. President James Buchanan, Walker headed for Nicaragua with two objectives in mind: to convert Central America into slave territory, and to construct an 18-mile canal from Lake Nicaragua to the Pacific Ocean after conquering Nicaragua. Walker and his powerful North American contacts were determined that the proposed trans-isthmic canal would provide a more efficient and profitable means of transport between the eastern sea board and the new western frontier.”
http://www.vivacostarica.com/costa-rica-information/history-of-costa-rica-4.html
in the north, Lincoln was part of the American Colonization Society, that wanted to appropriate land in the Caribbean or Africa, in order to deport the black American slaves.
It didn’t work because the Caribbean/Central America FOUGHT back and Liberia was a Failure.
“Lincoln’s Secretary of State, William Seward, had his eye on the Caribbean basin, which he, Lincoln, and other cabinet members thought was the ideal place to colonize emancipated slaves. Congress set aside $600,000 for this, and during the Civil War the U.S. also was exploring likely spots in Mexico, British Honduras, Guatemala, Honduras, and Costa Rica — not always with the permission of the national governments.
Nearly a decade later, even as he edited the draft of the preliminary Emancipation Proclamation in August of 1862, Lincoln hosted a delegation of freed slaves at the White House in the hopes of getting their support on a plan for colonization in Central America.
Given the “differences” between the two races and the hostile attitudes of whites towards blacks, Lincoln argued, it would be “better for us both, therefore, to be separated.”
Lincoln’s support of colonization provoked great anger among black leaders and abolitionists, who argued that African-Americans were as much natives of the country as whites, and thus deserved the same rights. “
http://slavenorth.com/colonize.htm
That’s why I have always said before “F’ck Abraham Lincoln”– he wanted to invade my homeland in order to “cure” the USA of it’s “black problem”
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@leigh204
Glad you pointed out those photos of the Klan waiving the good ole stars and stripes. I don’t think it’s just as offensive to non-whites as the confederate flag. The American flag is soaked in even more blood of the victims of racist and genocidal policies carried out not just in America but all over the world.
@Lord of Mirkwood
“The American flag is that of a nation that stood up to the Confederates and whose president freed the slaves.”
The American flag is also that of a nation built on land stolen by the nearly exterminated original inhabitants and with the free labor of stolen people.
And, as you know, a President does not have the power to enact laws, and an “emancipation proclamation” is not nor was it ever a law.
“It is the symbol of a nation which sought to enact civil rights laws in the defeated South”
The US Government adopted civil rights laws after 100 years of upholding overtly racist laws and after the peaceful outcries of an oppressed minority heard all around the world shamed US politicians to action.
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Perfection is not what is in question…
Lincoln did not believe black and white people were equals up until the end of his life.
He did not fight the Civil War to free the slaves
and his intent was to NOT abolish slavery but to re-Colonize them.
You can dance around that fact all day but it does not make it Untrue.
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“In the last speech of his life, delivered on April 11, 1865, he argued for limited black suffrage, saying that any black man who had served the Union during the Civil War should have the right to vote.
Lincoln wasn’t an abolitionist.”
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and the Only reason Lincoln addressed the issue, is because he tried to colonize other countries with black Americans and FAILED.
So, he had to figure how to incorporate black people in the USA.
“A projected African-American colony at Chiriqui on the Isthmus of Panama fell through. In 1863 some 450 American blacks were settled at Isle a Vache in Haiti, but it was a debacle and starvation and smallpox wiped them out.
The project was actually conceived at the White House on New Year’s Eve, 1862, amid late-night negotiations among Lincoln, Kock, Senator James Doolittle of Wisconsin and the longtime Washington powerbroker-turned-colonizationist standard-bearer Francis P. Blair Sr. With Blair boasting that the project marked “the beginning of the 2nd great Exodus” for African-Americans, Lincoln evidently affixed his signature to the Haitian colonization contract the following morning only hours before signing the more famous Emancipation Proclamation.
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/12/the-le-vache-from-hope-to-disaster/?_r=0
Just because you Americans don’t get sufficiently educated about your history in the Caribbean doesn’t mean we don’t.
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and you are a simpleton who wants to ignore the fact that just because Lincoln talked to a black man
and used a military strategy of allowing black slaves to serve in their former masters army to Interrupt the productivity of the Southern state… he did not give a sh’t about ALL black people
he only believed in equal pay for soldiers who fought in HIS Union army
he did not believe in equality between black and white people or that black people should have Equal rights with whites, as his Numerous speeches reflected.
does not erase the FACT that he wanted to DEPORT those same black African descended people
Lincoln advocated and financially supported projects to Deport black people before the Civil War, after the Civil war began in 1861, and after the Civil War ended 1865 to be carried out by his white advisors
and those facts and his actions of condoning deportation of black people overshadows anything else he may have done that inadvertently benefited black people in America.
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correction:
and used a military strategy of allowing black slaves to serve in the Union army, which was the enemy of their former masters, in order to Interrupt the productivity of the Southern states… he did not give a sh’t about ALL black people
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@Lord of Mirkwood
Lincoln used slaves to serve in his army just like the confederate army eventually permitted blacks to serve. And blacks in the union army didn’t get equal pay until 1864, were segregated, and couldn’t even march in the victory parade. Congress gave blacks equal pay, not Lincoln.
And calling Douglass an “adviser” of Lincoln is utterly absurd. Douglass was a long Lincoln critic who once said, “Whoever live through the next four years will see Mr. Lincoln and his Administration attacked more bitterly for their PRO-SLAVERY truckling, than for doing any anti-slavery work.”
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“Lord of Mirkwood@ Lincoln was murdered in cold blood because a racist bandit didn’t like the idea of him giving citizenship to black people. After hearing the speech, said bandit told one of his henchmen, “That is the last speech he will ever give.”
Linda says,
and I’m supposed to care about this?? GTFOH
that’s an Internal issue between white people who supported the continuation of white supremacy, which Lincoln did
People in Hitler’s own Nazi party tried to assassinate him because he wasn’t living up to their expectations and/or they had differences in ideology
“Heinrich Grunow was one of Hitler’s SS Bodyguards. It is thought that he was seeking revenge for the Night of the Long Knives murder of SA leader Ernst Rohm.”
http://mentalfloss.com/article/62299/10-would-be-assassins-who-tried-kill-hitler
but at the end of the day, Hitler and his would be assassins All agreed on one thing… the Jews had to go.
the same way, at the end of Lincoln and his murdered both believed that white people were Superior to black people.
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I agree with Linda.
American schools teach a selective history and have always spun it in favor of the government. The Union is always portrayed as having the moral high ground within that conflict. The idea that one could favor neither side is never considered. The idea that war itself might be immoral is never considered.
Liberals tend to say the civil war was about “freeing the slaves”. Conservatives say that it was about “state rights”. State rights today means limiting voting rights, prohibiting gay marriage and interfering with a women’s right to choose.
Jefferson envisioned a small Federal government with state rights being sovereign. Hamilton wanted a strong federal government from the beginning. Regardless of that the Empire building began when Washington invaded and tried to take parts of Canada in 1775.
America has been at war 222 Out of 239 Years – Since 1776. The majority of those wars involved killing non whites for resources. The constitution, which some claim to be the blue print for small government, created the worlds largest empire. Documents like the bill of rights and the declaration of independence were never originally intended to give non whites rights.
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/02/america-war-93-time-222-239-years-since-1776.html
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I don’t give a sh’t about your open mind…
the only duress Lincoln was under, was to keep the United States from splintering into 2 countries and removing one of the obstacles that was causing the Rift — black people
His own words and actions supported his views on black people and his belief that they would be better off in their own “country” and that they were less than and inferior to white people
You can keep your warm and fuzzy thoughts on Lincoln–I don’t really care
my concern is making it clear, on this Blog, that your beloved Lincoln was No better than his Confederate opponents
the Civil War was NOT fought to save or benefit black people — they were unintended recipients who were mere chess pieces in a Game
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About two weeks before the massacre in Charleston, South Carolina a fellow staff member and I confronted a 17-year-old White student (White supremacist) for flying the Confederate flag alongside the American flag in the bed of his truck. Both flags were the big ones that you see on school or business’s flag poles. The flags were on short, individual poles mounted on both sides of the truck. What I called a cowardly move, the kid decided to fly the Confederate flag on the last week of school here in the South Bay area of Los Angeles. When I asked him why was he flying the Confederate flag his response to me: “It’s just a social experiment.” I told him a social experiment my ass, you’re sending a crystal-clear message to people, particularly people like myself (Black people). His response: “Not at all. In fact, people in the streets had good things to say about the [Confederate] flag.” I had to go there, but I was calm and collect. I said of course some people would have good things to say about your Confederate flag because they’re not Black. I told him to look around, this is a predominantly White area. He grinned, arrogantly. I told him to drive his truck and Confederate flag five miles north of the school (a predominantly non-White area) and see if your “social experiment” really works. There was no grin from the young White supremacist after making that statement. The young White supremacist went on about how the Confederate flag represents his ancestors’ history and heritage in America. I told him that the Confederate flag also represents Black enslavement in America as well. He didn’t say a word. What was a little surprising about the whole situation is that one of his four school buddies – who rode along in his truck – was Korean-American. Although the young White supremacist’s friends said that they didn’t have any affiliation with the Confederate flag none of them confronted their friend for having or flying a Confederated flag. That told me that today’s generation of young people, particular young people of color, are ignorant to the history of race-relations in America. I fault their “color-blind”/ignorant parents and the so-called learning institutions that fall under the false banner of racial diversity.
Eventually, the young white supremacist was escorted to the superintendent’s office (the school’s superintendent happens to be Jewish-American). He was given his “walking papers” and told to leave the premises and to never return. After his expulsion, I advised staff and students to be on the alert for the young White supremacist’s return. It’s students, like him, that would come back and shoot up the entire campus. He never returned. Unfortunately, two weeks later a young White supremacist – who’s indoctrinated with the same racist ideology as the White kid we dealt with – massacred nine innocent Black people in a historic Black church in Charleston, South Carolina.
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“Lord of Mirkwood @ Also, the murder of Lincoln was very much about Lincoln’s anti-racism.”
Linda says,
Lies… Lincoln was not anti-racist….he was an open racist
you can love him all you want, but you don’t get to create your own Facts
“Robert Morgan, a writer for the Institute for Historical Review, confirmed that, on Aug. 14, 1862 (civil war began 1861), Lincoln invited free Black ministers to the White House to have a conversation.
Lincoln did not hesitate to convince them of their inferiority when he candidly said the following: “You and we are different races. We have between us a broader difference than exists between almost any other two races. Whether it is right or wrong I need not discuss, but this physical difference is a great disadvantage to us both, as I think your race suffers very greatly, many of them, by living among us, while ours suffers from your presence.
In a word, we suffer on each side. If this is admitted, it affords a reason at least why we should be separated.”
http://atlantablackstar.com/2015/05/05/not-great-emancipator-10-racists-quotes-abraham-lincoln-said-black-people/2/
Lincoln: “Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life. Family life may also collapse and the increase of mixed breed bastards may some day challenge the supremacy of the white man.”
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Lord of Mirkwood, you are a simpleton who doesn’t realize that your own American history is whitewashed.
As a foreigner, I have no real dog in this fight but I can call a spade a spade
as well as call out anyone who seems h’ll bent on spreading misinformation on a blog that tackles subjects that are painful to black Americans and their History.
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Kiwi,
I am not really comparing Lincoln to Hitler, I don’t believe they were alike at all
(even though the analogies you present seem slightly compelling)
I was only using the analogy to state:
that many prominent people who were murdered, still shared common ideology with their assassin.
Lincoln’s expansionist views and about race, was following in the footsteps of his fellow presidential predecessors.. the desire to cleanse the United States of black people was not new and did not start with Lincoln.
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This is food for thought it came across one of my Google+ page. “Let’s be clear the removal of a piece of fabric does not suggest the removal of a 400 year old mindset. That really makes sense even if they remove all the Confederate flags everywhere that still doesn’t erase the racist mindset of racist individuals who are complicit in white supremacy.
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@Kiwi
Thanks for the great input in this thread.
Guys, Hitler failed!
He was the understudy, the wannabe.
Expansionism and Genocide in the Americas was real and successful!
Manifest Destiny equals Lebensraum. Where are the Native Americans? Represented by people like Dolezal’s family?
Eugenics was practiced. There were black women who went to deliver their babies and had their tubes tied without their knowledge.
There was unethical medical experimentation. Remember the Tuskeegee airmen? Black communities were also deliberately contaminated with toxic chemicals for weapons testing. http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/suit-filed-over-government-test-spraying-in-st-louis-during/article_9bc1fc7d-7093-58a3-b557-0cbac5dc38ab.html
For a long time black people were not even people so the protections of the law did not apply! Eventually, the slave owners wanted their slaves to count for demographic/political purposes so the 3/5ths of a person compromise was reached.
Even half a century after “civil rights”, the legacy lives on with mass incarceration, disproportionately long prison sentences, police brutality, housing discrimination, gentrification, church massacres, and so on.
The dominant racist American power structure demonizes its defeated competition in order to deflect from its own amorality but the stars and stripes shouldn’t get a pass. It’s much easier to criticize a historical relic than the living, breathing thing.
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@Kiwi
Oops, thanks for the correction!
Not sure what happened to my brain/fingers there.
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Not sure if it has been said, but I personally see the whole show of taking down the flag as a means to deflect from the bigger issue of racism. Show the world that we stand with our black folks, while not really dealing with our deep rooted racist issues.
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@Mary
I saw your post late. Very well said.
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@Kiwi
It is not the racist uncle analogy itself that makes me uncomfortable (I am totally fine with that). It is that it is you are invoking it this time – you know why I feel this way.
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uh … hitler failed because we bombed the industrial/civilian centers of germany and we got the nukes first. no, seriously we combed through north africa, asia and rooted the nazi plague out like a growth. it’s not like that now, people aren’t wearing uniforms, the us is the one that hasn’t caught up yet, it is an isolationist vibe but not explicityly stated?
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Since you posted a lot of Confederate Battle Flag photos, I wanted to add two that you missed:
http://rlv.zcache.com/confederate_flagwavers_for_obama_2012_political_pi_button-rb28dbc925cf34905b64fd26ac5160f3f_x7j3i_8byvr_512.jpg?bg=0xffffff
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@lotr im torn between how bad the economy is and on the activist front, its just like what happened? to everyone? Everything? Its all about anonymous now and i am not behind that
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I think the difference between the US flag and the Confederate flag is that the former stands for the nation – the good and the bad. That is not true for the Confederate flag, it’s a purely political flag that stands exclusivly for slavery and Jim Crow. You can’t fly it and say: “I like Southern music”.
I think it translates to the realtionship of the Swastika flag and the Imperial Flag of Germany.
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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-27838034?post_id=1489932727_10206840017467552#_=_
Well you see us imperial hegemony, back to balfour (sorry) being challenged where a popular movement is seeking to redifine borders and policy, just like the secession from the states, it sets precedence…
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“Kiwi @ Linda: To argue that American racism is morally superior to Nazi racism, especially when the latter drew enormous inspiration from the former, is beyond infantile and specious. It is morally bankrupt.”
Linda says,
I hope you were quoting the above statement
because if you were directing that statement to me, you need to show me where I said American racism is morally superior to Nazi racism?
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Lord of Mirkwood,
You do realize that the article you brought only emphasizes that Lincoln played a hypocritical game of politics to appease his audience (just like most politicians) but he stood firm in his white supremacist beliefs that blacks should live separately from whites and that black and white people were not equals.
Per the article you brought in:
“Douglas knew what he was doing. Unlike Lincoln, he did not offer the alternative of colonization as a way to rid the republic of both slavery and an emancipated population of African Americans.
Rather, he believed that the issue of slavery should be left to popular vote (by whites, of course) in each state or territory which aspired to be admitted as a state. “
So, you basically brought in an article that confirmed that Lincoln wanted to Deport black people out of America and thought they were inferior to whites;
whereas, his opponent Douglas wanted to let white people vote for or against slavery.
So what was your point again?
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lot of interesting and through analysis about one aspect of this recent tragedy
,esp liked the equivalence between the American flag and the confederate.
Also its quite unfortunate that despite the overwhelming evidence you still have a white person that will still argue here again again regardless.
Its been occurred numerous times here in this microcosm and just as much in recent history that white/albinic people can think ,reason and act in every way but acknowledge they have been wrong and others have equal rights as well.
Its seems a successful methodology – even if we lose,are proven wrong etc
we white/albinic people cannot and will not acknowledge that anyone but us is deserving of equal and fair treatment.
witness the two democratic liberal and progressive presidential candidates
hilary clinton and bernie sanders
neither could utter the phrase – black lives matter -.
I can do it, its simple
hypothetical –
disproportionate numbers of white people are being killed unfairly by predominately black male law enforcement officers and in response some of the white people come up with phrase white lives matter –
as a national leader and presidential candidate speaking before them all I have to do to show sympathy is repeat this phrase – white lives matter.period.
real world – apparently this is extremely unrealistic if not impossible if your white and their black.
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Kudos to activist Brittany Newsome who climbed up to take that disgusting rag down in front of the S.C. statehouse kudos also to the other gentleman activist who assisted her. She got arrested and they put another one up. I am thankful the cops didn’t shoot her. It is amazing to me how the death of nine people had to be the catalyst to take this hateful symbol down. It is very telling how people who want to hold on to those symbols from that era of the civil war who they are and what they stand for. Even if all the flags are finally removed the individuals who love those symbols still harbor hatred in their hearts.
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Good post. I grew up and live in the South so my views on this topic will be somewhat biased here. I knew many people who had the Confederate flag hung up in their rooms and flew it up on top of their cars and on their front yard and many of these people weren’t exactly racist at all. Honestly, I don’t think that the Confederate flag is anymore more harmful or worse than the American flag.
And if you think about it, the American flag and the Confederate flag pretty much stands for the same thing. You all have to remember that both the American and Confederate flags were made and founded on principles of liberty and gaining independence from so called ”oppressive regimes”. Great Britain for America and United States of America for Confederate States of America. When most of these unions were founded, they both wanted the freedom to rule their country however they want to. United States in America wanted to rule their country without being unfairly taxed from Great Britain and abiding to their rules while the Confederacy was founded so that the United States wouldn’t interfere with the Southern economy and end slavery. At the end, both of these unions were founded on violence, racism, slavery and privileging White, heterosexual, Christian and upper class men.
So I don’t really see how the Confederate flag is more harmful and dangerous than the American flag especially since both unions were founded on the same racism, violence and privileging White men.
Most of all, what would putting down a flag do to end racism in this country? It wouldn’t.
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Bree Newsome is a heroine.
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Kudos to James Tyson a fellow activist who assisted her in the taking down of this filth.
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It is what inspired Dylan Roof to commit his heinous act of murdering those innocent church members. I know it was an flying before they were murdered. But i wonder if Nikki Haley would be taking action to have it removed if the nine church members hadn’t been murdered. Is this some kind of guilt? If the nine people in that church hadn’t been murdered by Roof would it be business as usual?
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I was having an online discussion with a friend and he said he thinks we are being manipulation by the media to play on our emotions and that there are other bigger issues at hand. This is a valid point but i feel it’s a start in chipping away at dismantling white supremacy.
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Typo**manipulated***^^^^^
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Pumpkin, the SC State legislature has the issue on their agenda to discuss the removal of the flag. I think it’s probably going to mean that most groups will want to wait for a decision one way or the other before taking punitive action.
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Agreed, Pumpkin.
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I don’t know if its been discussed here
(or in one of the numerous blog posts here on this event)
but has anyone considered the factor of
unintended consequences or blowback –
for years as we know well that racist in the south as well as everywhere else in america have been murdering black people (primary motivation – racism)
(whether or not they “get away with it” is another discussion)
but in this instance we have a national indeed international symbol for racism and esp american racism
being officially rejected by most major (and international) businesses as well as active removal or calls for the removal by affected state governments.
as a result of probably – the internet and its effect on media/news
as well as its global reach and the speed of communications in via this medium as well.
(and of course socio-pyschological processes I’m not familiar with as well as those WE don’t comprehend yet,etc)
one happy note to an otherwise same old same old.
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Wow, there’s a ton of misinformed comments here, all reactionary to a horrible tragedy, I’m sure, but the people you all should be most angry with are the people who lied to you about your history, lied to you about their motives, coerced you to see government as a good force & convince you to vote against your best interests. A evil, mentally ill, drugged up piece of human garbage is being used as a tool to further entrap you into agreeing to things that further degrade you & your race. I really have reached the point where it’s too painful to watch it play out. Burn that flag, all the flags, or keep them. Who cares, it’s just a scrap of fabric that used as means to cause further division & black & white, people are walking in lockstep allowing it to happen. It’s the most depressing thing I believe I’ve ever seen.
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Zeroh Tollrants
“about your history, lied to you about their motives, coerced you to see government as a good force & convince you to vote against your best interests.”—Then you do realize that they are showing anger to those very people right? As to voting against our best interest . …..no one running in either party has our best interest.
“A evil, mentally ill, drugged up piece of human garbage is being used as a tool to further entrap you into agreeing to things that further degrade you & your race.”—-How so? He was not mental, though white people love to brainwash poc into believing that, and in the eyes of white people nothing we do will not degrade our race. So at this point who cares? Do people like you still think shaming works?
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Right… because no Black person had EVER tried to have the Confederate Battle Flag removed from State property before this point. It’s all ‘reactionary’ to the shooting.
Well the first persons to lie to us about our history and their motives were White, Southern, plantation masters. so…
sharinalr is correct. There is NOBODY in politics who is not trying to convince us to vote against your best interests on some level. But seriously, Republicans/Conservatives need to recognize their OWN dubious folly. Government is not the answer? YET:
– When the upstanding White business community wouldn’t hire or promote Blacks in any appreciable numbers, government organizations like the military were DECADES ahead in integration and promotion of people of color. Pay rates at government institutions like the Post Office paid FAR more in salary and benefits to people of color. Meanwhile White Conservatives were still making excuses as to why so few non-Whites were employed by them, and why they were paid so much less than their White counterparts, doing the EXACT same jobs! If you didn’t want to be voted out of existence you should have thought about that when you were busy profiting from your prejudice. YOU ARE THE ONES who proved Government to be “In our best interests” in the minds of so many non-Whites.
Yes, of course… it was ALWAYS just a “scrap of fabric” wasn’t it? I mean it’s a bunch of different colored threads sewn together… who would think that it MEANS anything? How ridiculous of us!!
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I got zero tolerance for the ignorance of Zeroh Tollrants.
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@ King, I am so lovin’ your posts about this topic thread! @ Pumpkin, I too agree that a more proactive stance needs to be taken about tackling issues such as the stars n’ bars flag.That po’dunk town in Minnesota flyin’ that filthy rag is further proof that it needs to be abolished, as those azzholes know Exactly what their doing by keepin’ it flying around their towns! If people keep being silent and nonchalant about this flag being (at least publicly) displayed, then what’s next-lettin’ crosses burn on lawns and swastikas being sprayed on houses because, after all they “just symbols” as the flag is “just a piece of cloth”!?
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Update (July 6th): Debate begins today among South Carolina lawmakers on a proposed law to bring down the Confederate flag. There is reportedly enough votes to pass it. It could be signed by the governor as soon as July 9th.
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I have been meaning to say something about this for the past week or two:
Apple Removes Civil War Games From App Store Over Confederate Flag Usage
(http://www.macrumors.com/2015/06/25/apple-removes-civil-war-games-confederate-flag/)
This actually got me perturbed.
Removing a symbol (that has been actively used for 150 years) will do nothing to address the problem. It is like removing the n-word from polite speech.
Actually, we need to keep the symbol at least in applications that have educational value about what it means, not just generic information about the Civil War. People will even forget further what the Civil War was all about.
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@ Jefe
I agree: that is sanitizing history.
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I find it very interesting that some conservatives are inserting rap music into the debate over the Confederate flag as if the histories of both are comparative. They are not and I tire of the way some are using rap as a scapegoat. So rap should be banned if the flag is up for being banned? Give me a break.
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@jefe
Exactly my thoughts.
@bygodsloveandgrace
I have yet to see those debates, but I have found that conservatives seem to be the butt of the joke without even realizing it.
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@ sharinalr.. Agree… What’s even more scary are those who follow their logic. This is why things don’t change.
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There is a group of black people who advocate the confederate flag. This crazy woman and named Karen Cooper who is on You Tube spouting some ignorant foolishness. I hate when black people do ignorant stuff like this.
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@ Mary.. Why are they advocating the confederate flag? What is their possible rationale? I’d love to hear this!
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bygodsloveandgrace and Mary
If it is the loon I think it is, then she thinks the flag stands for freedom and slavery was a choice.
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Update (July 9th): The governor of South Carolina has signed the law to take down the Confederate flag.
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Yup.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/south-carolinas-confederate-flag-removed-week-32327504
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Update (July 10th): The Confederate flag at the South Carolina state capitol has just been taken down – after 53 years.
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Black Officer turns the other cheek and helps White supremacist suffering from heat to a spot in the shade.
(http://news.yahoo.com/black-cop-kkk-rally-south-carolina-heat-viral-213215780.html?bcmt=1437331379999-31f5472b-1716-436d-be77-2ed00c89fb9a_0000fb000000000000000000000000-c53ab502-2c03-4319-8d74-46b15f053c1c&bcmt_s=u#mediacommentsugc_container)
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Darn. And here we were hoping some would have a heat stroke.
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Sharinalr!! Whatever has happened to your sweet and forgiving spirit!! 🙂
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See, these racists have come down from Detroit and they aren’t used to that 100 plus heat with a side helping of humidity!!! They’re dropping like flies!
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@King
But King…having the lord take them to the “promise land” is sweet and forgiving. haha
Oh wow! I had no idea where they came from. I actually thought they were from the south.
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@King, once Again these idiots have to rely upon POC in one way shape or form for assistance in their miserable, hatefilled lives-even when they’re in the middle of a rally tellin’ Black folks (and others) how much they claim to not be able to stand them, nor want them around. HA! @Abagond, thanks for the flag update info-Something to celebrate this week! 😀
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King,
what I find interesting is how the media is playing up the officer helping the white nationalist
while, avoiding any stories about how the local gang “the bloods” confronted the KKK and white nationalist protesters
tore up and burned the confederate flag — and administered some well needed a’s whoopings!
instead the media wants to play up black people turning the other cheek
(Funny how those white boys had a lot of talk but couldn’t back it up– jumped out his car and everything. They must think it’s still the 1960s when they could intimidate a black man)
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https://instagram.com/p/5UzOBOLrkp/
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https://instagram.com/p/5ThUThl7JL/
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What’s this dumb white woman doing out in the middle of a protest with a bikini on?
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LOL @ the guy shouting, “WORLDSTAR!”
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@ Herneith:
I am guessing she’s with the knocked out dumb ass on the ground.
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@ Linda
If you ever had any doubt that the media is geared to achieving certain results and perceptions that are desirable and useful to those in power, now your doubts can finally be set to rest! 🙂
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Update: The University of Mississippi, aka Ole Miss, has taken down the state flag because the Confederate battle flag is part of its design (pictured at the bottom of the post).
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Folks, I have finally found something of use with this confederate flag!
http://www.prankplace.com/TOILET-PAPER-Rebel-Flag–718856120017-8508-0X.aspx
Happy arse wiping!
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The Free State of Jones was not the only area in the south that was against secession from the north. Winston County in Alabama never did secede with the rest of the state instead it seceded from the state. When the Union army reached north Alabama in April of 1862, the people of WInston County enlisted with Union forces to form the 1st Alabama Calvary Regiment.
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The Civil War is part of OUR HISTORY!!! You cannot remove that. The flag represent history and heritage, not the hate that certain groups have claimed it for.
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@ Holly
“The flag represent[s] history and heritage…”
You are correct. The Confederate battle flag represents a history of treason and fighting to preserve the enslavement of human beings used as livestock.
The flag represents a heritage of White supremacy, Klan rallies and White mob violence against Black citizens.
That is history that can’t be removed.
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Addendum:
For the a##wipe in your life.
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