Rula Jebreal (1973- ), Palestinian author and journalist, was a television news anchor in Italy and Egypt in the 2000s and currently, in July 2014, appears on American television as a talking head on MSNBC. She is a self-described Arab moderate. She wrote a novel, “Miral” (2003), which became a film starring Freida Pinto.
On July 21st 2014 she said the American press is “disgustingly biased” about the current war on Gaza by Israel. For example:
- CNN, between June 30th and July 10th, had 17 Israeli public officials and only one Palestinian. (There were in fact five Palestinians, but that still leaves them outnumbered three to one.)
- NBC pulled reporter Ayman Moyheldin out of Gaza for being pro-Palestinian. He was put back only after pushback from the Internet.
This is partly why the US blindly supports Israel despite its crimes.
She sees both Hamas in Gaza and the Netanyahu government in Israel as violent extremists who are crippled mentally and culturally. Stuck in between are millions of Arabs and Jews who want a middle way of peace, who just want to be able to send their children to school without fear. Voices in the middle go largely unheard in the American press.
She favours a one-state solution: Arabs and Jews living together in one nation in peace, equality and democracy. It is what Mandela would have wanted. Jewish settlements since 1993 have made a two-state solution unworkable. No wall will save the Jews – only respect for the humanity of Palestinians will.
She grew up in an East Jerusalem orphanage at the foot of the Mount of Olives. She was an Arab Muslim girl yet also an Israeli citizen. She came of age during the Palestinian uprising of the First Intifada (1987-1993), which she took part in. She was tortured by the Israelis.
Israel had shut down Palestinian schools in the West Bank, so she and others went there to teach. Jewish settlers spat on them, threw stones at them. Jews lived on top of the hills in nice houses while down below Palestinians lived in poverty, ignorance and daily humiliation at the hands of Israeli soldiers. Israel was creating an ugly world where violent, ignorant fanaticism seems reasonable.
Books helped her to understand her world and rise above it. She loved:
- Ghassan Kanafani: “Going Back to Haifa”, “Men in the Sun”
- Edward Said
- Benny Morris: “1948”
- Primo Levi: “If This is a Man”, known in the US as “Survival in Auschwitz”
Kanafani and Said are Palestinian, Morris and Levi are Jewish.
Italy: In 1993 she got a scholarship to study at the University of Bologna. She went on to become an award-winning journalist and the first foreign anchorwoman on Italian television (where she was called the N-word).
Miral: She wrote “Miral” in Italian. It has been translated into 15 languages, selling millions of copies worldwide. It follows the lives of four Palestinian women, covering the period from 1948 to 1993. Although she wrote it as a work of fiction, she says it is all true. She is Miral.
– Abagond, 2014.
See also:
I like her. She is passionate about her views. I didn’t think she would last as long on American cable as she did.
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Thank you Abagond for writing about Rula. I like her because she is fearless about expressing her opinions. Her people have no voice because for so long, it’s only been the Israeli’s and the radical Muslims/Jihadist who get all the attention.
I heard that they had originally banned her from MSNBC but then changed their minds when she went public with it… so much for American free speech.
MSNBC and Rula Jebreal: Can this cable network take a little criticism?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2014/07/23/msnbc-and-rula-jebreal-can-this-cable-network-take-a-little-criticism/
Rula Jebreal @ My forthcoming TV appearances have been cancelled! Is there a link between my expose and the cancellation?what about you @EliLake ?
and what I find so fascinating is how Americans all of a sudden know everything there is to know about Arab people and Muslims–most Americans (ie white Americans) had no clue about why 9/11 happened… nor could they find Libya or Kazakhstan on a map–
but thanks to the American media, now everyone is an “expert” on the middle East, so there is no need to hear from Real Arabs about what is happening in the middle East or in their own countries.
Many foreigners who see Americans on TV, think most American people are stupid and uneducated…but we all know that’s a stereotype …. I think the Palestinian point of view should be voiced because there are 2 sides to every story and things are not always the way it seems.
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Okay, I can’t be rational when it comes to Rula Jeberal because…goodness gracious that woman is FINE! : )
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Such a magnificent and outspoken trooper. She was spot on on the pro-Israeli bias the mainstream media has.
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I will add miral to my list of books to read. It is nice to hear someone give a fresh voice and not a voice of fear mongering.
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Thank goodness for the Internet.
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Like many, I am waiting for the time when it becomes “fashionable” to label the Israeli state as an Apartheid State. I’ve heard it used, but is yet mainstream and Standard? I think not.
Perhaps there WAS a time between 1948 and 1994 that the “the media”, the mainstream, said South Africa was a level playing field, and a straight, equal and even fight between the Afrikaaner and ANC “terrorists”.
I don’t know either way.
It’s taken for granted NOW, in hindsight, that it was NOT a level playing field, that murdering the non-white population was plain murder, and no “defence” at all.
Time has moved on, and perhaps the image of the conflict is more controlled and managed to appear like it’s about Two Equal Sides.
It can AFFORD to.
Israel’s stand, and righteous perspective can be broadcast day and night for years to come if the US continues to pledges aid to Israel at a rate of $3 billion per year.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/09/us-israel-usa-defence-idUSBREA4807A20140509
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@ Abagond
I recall Rula Jebreal, vaguely, from European journalism, so she must be something of a lone voice on US tv — which I don’t watch.
Thank you, Abagond, for devoting a post to her.
************************************
(As a side note, I first thought she was Indian (she really looks like family, LOL), but Ms Jebreal, afaik, has never mentioned who her natural father is or was, so perhaps an Indian actress (Frieda Pinto) was the right choice to play her in the film, rather than an Arab.
Her father in the film is played by Alex Siddig, the Sudanese-English actor, so I suppose the film was cast by people who look close enough to the part, rather than anything else.)
************************************
The world appeared distracted by the football World Cup whilst the bombing was going on (or so it seemed, if headlines were anything to go by), and then, when the goings-on did reach mainstream media coverage — it was sickeningly one-sided, diminishing the loss of lives of the Palestinians, and making it seem that the media were “complicit” in war crimes: https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/11/28/gaza/#comment-244488
For saying this, apparently, it makes me a supposed antisemite.
I had to laugh when I read that. I get accused and insulted for a lot, since some read what I don’t write…
Right, I “must” an antisemtie, of course! since I tend to take a dim view of Islamophobic reactions and the ignorance about Islam and Muslims that goes with it. No one dare to notice the uneven, and racist, media coverage: that’s antisemitism in action.
I don’t take that foolish accusation seriously.
A PoV can be nuanced. I have little time for the “if you aren’t with us, then you must be against us” way of thinking, if it can be called “thinking” at all.
Most of the coverage I’ve seen characterizes the conflict as Jew Versus Muslim fight. That isn’t what’s it really about.
It was not that rare for Muslim and Christian Palestinians to live side by side in the same neighbourhood, and naturally suffer the same fate at the hands of the Israeli military.
The language is telling, too. The Palestinians are referred to as “militants”.
Of course “terrorist” is another one freely mentioned as “representative”.
What I didn’t have the time to say in the “Gaza” thread, was that any lack of awareness on many viewers’ part about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict — and understanding what it actually is — would be perfectly understandable if they believed what the media told them.
Therefore, if the viewer had no empathy for Palestinians’ civilian life under occupation, that lack of empathy doesn’t come as a big surprise since it was cultivated.
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I thought she looked familiar, I remember seeing her on Melissa Harris-Perry on MSNBC. I remember thinking how striking she was i thought she was a model, I remember how passionate she was because she was debating with another panelist who was on the side of the Israelis. I remember that she wouldn’t allow the Israeli dude to shut her down. She was pretty strong with her viewpoints. I think she intimidated the Israeli dude. When Melissa Harris-Perry told they had a to end the exchange she and the Israeli guy were having, she was still going on. Like i said she would not be shut down. She has a very strong personality, and I feel she wants people to know she is just more than a pretty face, she is a fighter and strong in her convictions where the Palestinian people are concerned. This airing was two weeks ago. I had to google her. She left an impression on me. I wanted to see who she was. I was curious about her ethnicity.
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While watching Rula Jebreal on MHP speaking very boldly about the conflict in Gaza i wondered by her being so outspoken does she get death threats? Because she is no “shrinking violet” not from what i viewed a couple of weekends ago. She can give as good as she gets. She is not a punk.
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It’s astounding that support for the so-called Palestinians exists when Islam, which establishes the laws in Islamic nations and regions absolutely abhors and forbids:
Freedom of Speech
Freedom of Religion
Equal Rights for women
Plurality
Democracy
Capitalism
Education beyond memorizing the Quran
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It is astounding that American support for Israel exists when Israel does not practise
democracy,
pluralism or
international law,
while it carries out
settler colonialism,
apartheid,
ethnic cleansing and
crimes against humanity.
The US makes a mockery of its own supposed ideals. Worse, it becomes party to these things by providing military support and giving Israel diplomatic cover at the UN.
Or maybe such support is not so astounding once you consider that the US has done many of the same things in its own history.
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abagond,
Israel is the only democracy in the region.
Pluralism is practiced. On every level. Socially, politically. civilly. Arab Muslims are citizens of Israel. In fact, there are about 1.5 million of them — out of a total population of about 6.5 million.
How many non-muslims live in Islamic countries? Pretty close to zero. Of course the Coptic Christians in Egypt, estimated at 9% of the country’s population, are undergoing constant persecution, including murder.
Other than the unfortunate murder of the Palestinian teenager a few weeks ago — perpetrators caught and on their way to long jail sentences — Israeli citizens don’t act out that way toward muslims.
Apparently you know little about the land and its history. In short, the Arab Muslims living in the Mandate of Palestine in 1948 did not own the land on which they lived. They had no legal claim to it.
Ethnic cleansing? You’re out of your mind. Unless you’re referring the way Israel gave the entire Gaza Strip to the so-called Palestinians and all Israelis were removed.
While the Israelis were farming in Gaza, it was a productive place. Since the so-called Palestinians have had full control, the Gaza Strip has turned into a garbage dump. They are so incompetent they can’t handle basic sanitation procedures.
If the so-called Palestinians keep up their lunacy, Israel may shut off the electricity that’s piped over the border every day. The so-called Palestinians are so lacking in basic technical knowledge that they can’t build and maintain a power plant.
It’s remarkable how blind people become when they foolishly believe the problems of the Palestinians are caused by anything other than the failure-based society that is always created by adherence to Islam.
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Mary,
Rula Jebreal has always been outspoken and a fighter — the movie she made called “Miral” was about her life. She was active as a teenager in the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP)
a brief biography of her life (and movie):
http://www.jewishjournal.com/the_ticket/item/the_real_miral_rula_jebreal_20110323
“Jebreal’s own story is heartbreaking. Everything in “Miral,” the novel and the film, is true, she said, not only about herself, but also about her family. Her mother, Nadia, was repeatedly raped by her stepfather as a child, ran away from home as a teenager, supported herself as a belly dancer and served time in jail for slapping an Israeli woman who had affronted her.
Eventually, she married Othman Jebreal, a gentle, almost saintly man who worked as a gardener and later, as a minor imam at the al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem. He vowed to save her, but Nadia was unable to overcome her brutal childhood and descended into alcoholism and depression, eventually committing suicide by drowning herself in the Mediterranean, leaving behind her daughters, Rula, 5, and Rania, 4.
Because Othman Jebreal was already suffering from cancer, he took his girls to live at Hind Husseini’s Children’s Home in the Old City of Jerusalem, hoping that there they could receive an education and find safe haven when he was gone.
Another turning point came when Jebreal was sent by Husseini to teach in a makeshift school in a refugee camp on the West Bank when she was 16. “I was shocked by the kind of oppression that seemed unbearable,” she recalled of the camp. There, Jebreal met and fell in love with an older man, an activist with the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine; against the wishes of Hind and of her father, who by then was terminally ill, she also began participating in civil disobedience and numerous demonstrations during the first Intifada.
Late one night, Jebreal was arrested and whipped in an Israeli prison, but was released after 24 hours because she is an Israeli citizen. The only matter that is fictionalized in the film, she said, involves her boyfriend at the time; he did not engage in car bombings in the settlements or in any other violent activities, as far as she knows.
Eventually Jebreal received a scholarship to the University of Bologna and relocated to Italy”
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“Bulanik,
Her father in the film is played by Alex Siddig, the Sudanese-English actor, so I suppose the film was cast by people who look close enough to the part, rather than anything else.”
Linda says,
you’re absolutely correct! Rula said she chose Alex Siddig because he looked very similar to her father, who was part Nigerian-part Palestinian.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/e-nina-rothe/alexander-siddig-discover_b_817826.html
“He (Alex Siddig) is everything a leading man should be and not just that he’s tall, dark and handsome.” Rula Jebreal, who based Miral on her own experiences growing up Palestinian during the First Intifada, confesses “when I met Alexander Siddig in London I could not shake his hand because he was so much like my father physically and he is Sudanese and English…”
Rula’s father was part Nigerian “and Alexander was talking and he was standing straight, his shoulders, and he is so dignified. He broke my heart. I looked at Julian and said “You know that he is the right person!” To which Julian Schnabel replied “I know, because I felt the same way from just reading the lines, without having met your father”.
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I just read that Brazil withdrew a couple of diplomats in protest after the recent Israeli assault on Gaza. The Jewish (or should I say Zionist) cause has a superior propaganda arm but the Palestinians have been suffering horribly. It seems almost as if the preferred ‘final solution’ for the state of Israel is ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. How many secretly share the opinion of parliament member Ayelet Shaked?
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/16/371556/israel-must-kill-all-palestinian-mothers/
“They [Palestinians] have to die and their houses should be demolished so that they cannot bear any more terrorists,” Shaked said, adding, “They are all our enemies and their blood should be on our hands. This also applies to the mothers of the dead terrorists.”
Compare that to PW Botha of South Africa:
“I am one of those who believe that there is no permanent home for even a section of the Bantu in the white area of South Africa and the destiny of South Africa depends on this essential point. If the principle of permanent residence for the black man in the area of the white is accepted then it is the beginning of the end of civilisation as we know it in this country.”
In both cases they are talking about people who are native inhabitants: the Palestinians of Palestine and the Bantu (people) of South Africa.
A two-state solution might be impractical now because of the lack of integrity of Palesintian territories but a one-state solution called Israel will almost certainly mean Palestinian second-class citizenship. This whole affair is just too reminiscent of invasions and ethnic cleansings from previous centuries.
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@Linda: Thank you for that, I from reading that i can see what shaped her to be the strong woman she is today. I will probably look for this movie on netflix. Again thanks.
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I guess that hackneyed expression about “Whatever doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.” Would sum up Rula Jebreal. I see why she is so outspoken in regards to the Palestinian and Israeli crisis. It makes sense, she is standing up for what she feels is injustice. I really didn’t understand about the Palestianian crisis. This post thread about this woman helps me to understand it. It appears the Palestinian people are the marginalized people being oppressed by the Israelis.
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@ Linda
Alexander Siddig…now, he certainly ticks some boxes! 😀
However, the man Ms Jebreal knew as her father was not her natural, biological father. I was just curious who her biological father really was, as Palestinians (like Israeli Jews) vary somewhat in appearance.
That’s why I said earlier:
“(As a side note, I first thought she was Indian (she really looks like family, LOL), but Ms Jebreal, afaik, has never mentioned who her natural father is or was, so perhaps an Indian actress (Frieda Pinto) was the right choice to play her in the film, rather than an Arab.”
By all accounts, Ms Jebreal’s mother had her daughters by 2 different men BEFORE meeting her husband, Othman Jebreal — the wonderful Nigerian-Palestinian man she knew as her father, her only father.
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@ Origin
Agreed, it is reminiscent of just that. Thank you for drawing that parallel.
The call by Israeli law givers to conduct a campaign of genocide (and murder the women of Palestinian) is the latest layer on top of the ones that: entail abducting and abusing Palestinian children, and, are on top of the one that is violent assasult of people already living in poverty, and terror, day and night.
There is violence ALSO directed at the Israelis, and Israeli children have been slaughtered, too. ALL of it, all of it, is very, very wrong.
The part the media play, though– and the thrust of Ms Jebreal’s argument is this:
THE REACTION, or under-reaction — to the deaths of Palestinians Versus the righteous indignation and sorrow in reaction to similar tragedies shown when it happens to Israelis and their families. Not the same!
Israeli lives are worth more, obviously.
***
Most Palestinians, are, in fact, children.
Most of the Palestinian population is under 18 years of age.
And, according to the Ministry of Information:
“One Palestinian child has been killed by Israel every three days for the last 13 years.”
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/6185-one-palestinian-child-has-been-killed-by-israel-every-3-days-for-the-past-13-years
Another trend is this one: for every Israeli death, there are 6 Palestinian ones.
That was the key trend between 2000 and 2007.
http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/BE07C80CDA4579468525734800500272
(I doubt if it has lessened, if the recent bombings are anything to go by: there were 100s and 100s of Palestinians killed (nearly 900 at present), sometimes whole families — Isreali are far less (under a tenth of Palestinian losses)).
One would never think that any of that ^^ was anywhere near the truth if the media portrayals are anything to be believed.
It makes me wonder how much, and who, is silenced, and whether we will ever really get to hear/see the lives of so many trapped in this violence.
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IMO, the root of the problem is the ideology connected to the founding of the state of Israel. But I’m not singling them out because ideology also underpinned many genocides and has been the driving force for most wars in recent centuries. Ideology creates the framework within which the previously unthinkable becomes at first possible then ‘real’. For the most part, we are not unjust towards each other, as collectives, for personal reasons. We are being instruments for the incarnation of ideological formulae; the means by which they escape the inner mental sphere and enter the world of others’ perceptions. (I’m not absolving people of responsibility as if to say they are ‘possessed’ just exploring the mechanism of mass atrocity, i.e the overarching mental machinery groups construct in order to make it possible.) Soldiers don’t hold grudges against the fighter on the other side. They are simply ‘serving their country’ and the country is just an abstract entity that would not exist without people to serve it. During war, that entity dictates the attitude people should have towards those who represent other countries REGARDLESS of any prior personal contact between the individuals. In the case at hand, Manifest Destiny, Lebensraum and Zionism are the same voracious ‘demon’ by different names for different times and places. They represent the same collective behavioral formula operating in different contexts.
Thought is to mind as wind is to air so all ideologies need to be accepted by individuals (as true) in order to survive. Mental acceptance of a truth is a committment to physical realization of that truth. Cognitive dissonance arises when an individual is confronted with external conditions that conflict with their held beliefs. The potential for this state to generate action towards the correction of the incongruence drives the outer expression of ideological formulae. But the precondition (mental acceptance) must exist first within a critical mass of people. So the function of propagation is the role of propaganda. I don’t see propaganda itself as good or bad, it is simply the means by which ideas of all kinds are spread. Obviously, control of the mass media is a HUGE advantage in this regard and I wouldn’t expect that advantage to be voluntarily relinquished. Joseph Gobbels understood this:
“Think of the press as a great keyboard
on which the government can play.”
“It would not be impossible to prove with sufficient repetition and a psychological understanding of the people concerned that a square is in fact a circle. They are mere words, and words can be molded until they clothe ideas and disguise.”
“That propaganda is good which leads to success, and that is bad which fails to achieve the desired result. It is not propaganda’s task to be intelligent, its task is to lead to success.”
So yes, the American press isn’t being ‘fair’ to the Palestinians in terms of how the conflict is reported (I see this also in the way the situation in Ukraine is reported). But it is more important for the press to be thought of as ‘fair and balanced’ than it is for it to actually be so. The idea that the press is fair aserts that it serves no propaganda role which makes it easier to for it to do so since the mechanism is made imperciptible. Starting with the assumption that a report is neutral is to risk being imbued with an accidental opinion. As Ms. Jebreal points out, the approach is often quite subtle and is therefore effective. Isreali deaths are reported in such a way as to generate more sympathy than Palestinian deaths. Israel’s actions are frequently reported as defensive while the Palestinians are almost always seen as aggressors and terrorists. We hear frequently about Isreal’s ‘right to defend itself’ and ‘right to exist’ but seldom hear about the corresponding rights of Palestinians as they endure continued expansion of settlements. You’d think that Palesintians had invaded Israel when it’s the Palestinians that are being squeezed. The coherent idea is that Isrealis have a right to exist on that land and Palestinians don’t. This is not conducive to the emergence of any peaceful consensus but instead leads to tacit support of genocide.
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@sb32199
“Israel is the only democracy in the region.”
Once again running your mouth about things you do not know.
Palestine is a democracy, with a democratically elected government in power. Syria also recently had elections which were deemed free and fair by a group of int’l observers. Lebanon too is a democracy.
“How many non-muslims live in Islamic countries? Pretty close to zero.”
Using your example of Egypt, the birthplace of Christianity, where 8 million Christians live, is certainly more than zero. Christianity has coexisted with Islam for hundreds of years since the invasion. Of course there’s also Lebanon, which is a third Christian.
“Unless you’re referring the way Israel gave the entire Gaza Strip to the so-called Palestinians and all Israelis were removed.”
“Israelis” or zionists have only occupied Palestine for 66 years, and even after the Six Day War in 1967, they never occupied most of Gaza. And no Israelis were ever forcibly removed by Palestinians. In fact it was the Israeli gov’t that forcibly removed Israelis.
Jeez, why do I have to teach you everything?
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@sb32199 israel’s actions against palestinians (and against african immigrants) are well on par with south african apartheid and german nazism. so shut your mouth.
and what’s up with calling them “so called palestinians”? they have lived in that land for thousands of years before the ashkenazim/ sephardim (european jews) even got a glance of it!
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To compare the Isreali occupation policy with the Holocaust is ridiculous and is exactly that hyperbole that renders critics of Israel open to the assumption of anti-semitism. I certainly acknowledge the suffering of the Palestinians (in the occupied territories, not the Arab Israelis), but it’s certainly not on par with systematic extinction.
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resw77,
There is NO nation of Palestine. Moreover, no nation of Palestine has ever existed. It is a region on the map, like the North Pole. We all know where it is, and many of us know that both the North Pole and Palestine are not and have never been sovereign nations.
As for who’s lived in that region, well, be serious, Islam is only 1,400 years old, which conclusively ends the argument of which religion planted its flag first. Not that the religious factor puts the statehood issue to bed, but it matters.
Anyway, every nation on the planet came into being through conflict, thus it’s unusual when the creation of one nation — Israel — enrages some people, especially when they have no connection to the nation or the people tied up in the conflict.
Bottom line, the so-called Palestinians have been offered 98 percent of the land they’ve demanded as a condition for agreeing to the Two-State Solution, however, they’ve rejected that offer many times. Furthermore, Hamas itself is not open to any plan that acknowledges the nation of Israel. Or any plan for two states. Hamas wants all Jews dead, or, at least, Hamas wants all Jews to leave the region, which is clear evidence that Hamas and those who elected the organization to run the Gaza Strip are not democratically minded. Or tolerant. Or sane.
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1tawnystranger, you’re so lacking in knowledge and understanding of the region and the issues that drive Muslims into their idiotic and psychotic paroxysms of self-defeating acts that all I can do is encourage you to read some of Bernard Lewis’s work. He’s a professor of Middle Eastern Studies at Princeton.
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@sb32199
“There is NO nation of Palestine. ”
That’s just your opinion. Most countries in the world do in fact recognise Palestine as a nation state, as well as the UN.
“As for who’s lived in that region, well, be serious, Islam is only 1,400 years old, which conclusively ends the argument of which religion planted its flag first. ”
If it’s about who was there first, then neither Christians nor Jews can claim Palestine either.
“Anyway, every nation on the planet came into being through conflict”
Irrelevant, and just shows you condone theft and colonialism.
“Bottom line, the so-called Palestinians have been offered 98 percent of the land they’ve demanded as a condition for agreeing to the Two-State Solution”
Again, mouthing off about things you know not. It’s Israel that did not agree to the UN Partition Plan or other agreements it entered, and it’s Israel that was one of only 6 nations that rejected the latest two-state approved resolution.
Even the US State Dept. recognises that Israeli settlements in the West Bank are in violation of international laws: “Every administration in recent memory has said that the settlements are illegitimate. So it’s been a pretty consistent position for quite some time now.”
“Hamas wants all Jews dead, or, at least, Hamas wants all Jews to leave the region”
And, again, you still haven’t shown any proof b/c it’s rubbish just like every other myth you’ve spouted. Hamas has asked that Israel abide by the 1967 partition plan, as Khaled Meshaal has stated numerous times.
Really, I only blame your ignorance on the disservice the American media is providing you, as Rula Jebreal explained.
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resw77,
The observer status of Palestine is fairy dust.
As for aims of Hamas, I challenge you to find a credible source that declares Hamas is NOT determined to destroy Israel and kill the Jewish citizens.
http://fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm
Click to access 1734.pdf
Regarding the 1967 borders, well, Israel has no plans for returning to those lines. Close, but not exactly those borders. That’s where the 98 percent comes in. The so-called Palestinians were repeatedly offered a state that includes 98 of the land they have sought.
The so-called Palestinians also want the bizarre Right of Return, which is another demand that Israel will never accept.
Meanwhile, Hamas and Fatah seem to have become enemies. Which of these two collections of psychopaths would take charge of the deranged population of Palestine?
Furthermore, the regions you believe are Palestine are dumps. You would think a nation connected to 1.5 billion other Muslims would have lifted itself up a little. But then again, all Islamic nations are dumps. The only regions within Islamic nations that aren’t dumps are the areas where western architects, engineers and construction companies have built outlandish, gaudy structures financed by oil money.
The most destructive ideology in history is Islam. It has created a failure-based society driven by anger and ignorance. It sucks in its hapless followers like quicksand.
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@sb32199
Again, most countries in the world and the UN recognise the state of Palestine. Your opinions are irrelevant.
“As for aims of Hamas, I challenge you to find a credible source that declares Hamas is NOT determined to destroy Israel and kill the Jewish citizens.”
First, nothing in the Hamas charter calls for Hamas or Palestinians to destroy Israel or Israelis.
Second, I’ve already pointed out that Hamas leader, Khaled Meshaal, publicly stated that “we are ready to resort to a peaceful way…as long as we attain our Palestinian demands…The elimination of occupation and Palestinian state…and the wall…I accept a Palestinian state according to 1967 borders with Jerusalem as the capital, with the right to return.”
“Regarding the 1967 borders, well, Israel has no plans for returning to those lines. ”
And Israel’s plans are not justified since it is occupying stolen land and not abiding by prior agreements it has made or international law.
“Furthermore, the regions you believe are Palestine are dumps. Blah blah blah…”
Don’t care about your bigoted ideology or ignorance of the destruction caused by Israeli army and it’s restrictions on the flow of commerce in Palestine.
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resw77,
Most of the countries in the world couldn’t care less about the so-called Palestinians and their imaginary state. If they did care, neither the Gaza Strip nor the Palestinian sections of the West Bank would be the dumps they are.
As you probably know, or maybe you don’t, there are no significant industries in the world that are operated by Muslims in Islamic countries. The oil industry is a western industry from which the Islamic states collect a royalty. Oil industry jobs held by Muslims are merely for show.
My opinion, as irrelevant as it is to you, is widely embraced where it matters.
And, by your dodge regarding the Hamas Charter, you know it says that one goal of Hamas is the destruction of Israel.
Meanwhile, if you want to focus on irrelevancies, you can focus on statements the head Hamas psychopath makes to the world media. However, the leader’s quote states, unless Hamas gets everything it wants — demands it knows Israel will never meet — the fight goes on. So, the fight goes on, and that means Hamas and the Gazans will continue to take a beating.
As all dealmakers know, if you’re really seeking a mutually-agreeable solution to a problem and the more powerful side offers you 98 percent of what you want, you take the offer. If you don’t take that offer, you’re not serious.
And as you know, whatever territory is handed over to the so-called Palestinians will become more land-fill. What in their behavior would change that might restore the region to it former — when the Israelis were there — level of agricultural production? You know they won’t change, You know they’ll bumble along, scratching the dirt and getting virtually nothing in return.
If the rockets keep flying into Israel, more buildings will fall and eventually there won’t be many buildings remaining in the Gaza Strip. Gazans seem incapable of learning some simple lessons. Three days after the US dropped two atomic bombs on Japan, the leadership realized all was lost and they agreed to an unconditional surrender. The surrender worked out well for Japan. It worked for Germany too.
But, those Muslims…They take a beating, and keep on taking beatings, again and again, because failure and defeat is all they know. That’s the ultimate lesson of Islam.
You seem to like the ruthless, self-defeating Islamic lunatics of Hamas. Here’s their latest.
http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/27/report-hamas-used-ceasefire-to-execute-25-gazans-accused-of-treachery-blamed-israel-for-deaths/
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another thing about the isreal Palestine conflict the Palestinian tend to be darker i.e have melanin in their epidermis then the current Israeli Jews.
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resw77 @sb32199
“There is NO nation of Palestine. ”
That’s just your opinion. Most countries in the world do in fact recognise Palestine as a nation state, as well as the UN.
Linda says,
resw77,
the argument that this blowhard is trying to use, is an old Zionist argument that the Jewish Zionists and their supporters have used to justify their reasoning for the existence of modern day Israel; and Israels reluctance to support a 2 state resolution.
There has ALWAYS been a Palestine, that region has had many names, just like many other “old” countries that have been sliced and diced though-out the years.
Gaza existed before the Land of Israel… Gaza has always been located in the Land of Canaan.
The Hebrews who came out of Egypt, (1200 BC) went into Canaan and conquered the native/indigenous people who were there and created the Kingdom of Israel and Judah, which existed for 700 years and was destroyed by the Assyrians in 722 BC and then by the Babylonians in 590 BC
after that, Israel did not Exist — until it was recreated by the British/Europeans (UN) in 1948.
thanks in part to the rich Iraqi/middle eastern and European Jews, who had enough money and power to convince the Europeans to carve out land based on the regions ancient maps of 1000 BC.
but the land of Palestine remained long after the Jews were deported out by the Assyrians and the Romans.
if recreating ancient Nations is OK by everyone, then I hope the USA government hops on board if the Native Americans ever request to use their Casino money to take back southeast USA based on the maps of territories prior to 1492 —
after all, the Native Americans were in North America first and have a “right to Exist”
I’m sure some people won’t mind seeing Florida, Georgia or Alabama seceding from the Union (obvious sarcasm)
All the Mexican illegals should pool their money together to buy back Southern California, New Mexico, and Arizona (Texas would never go quietly) based on the Map prior to 1800s
I do believe that the Israelis have a right to be there, and so do the Palestinians — they share common ancestors who have been in that region for thousands of years,
the modern day “Palestinians” have AS MUCH rights to Exist as do the modern day “Israelis”.
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I’m afraid that is incorrect. If that were the case, then there would have been no Israel the entire time when the New Testament was written, when it was well documented to exist by historians and by Roman records of tax collection.
The fall of Judea/Israel came much later in 70 A.D. under the Roman General, Titus
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resw77,
don’t forget to remind the ignorant that
This region has been run by many different rulers because this region has always been the gateway between Africa and Asia,
Being that this region is the gateway between Africa and Asia,
it’s been invaded and occupied by many foreign people through out history: best known– the Bedouins (real Arab people), Chaldeans, Persia, Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Assyrians (Syria), Ottoman Turks, who lost it to the British and French.
it was originally known as Canaan by the Egyptians and by the Hebrews, who first set foot on it in 1200 BC — remember the bible story about Moses led his people out of slavery in Egypt to the “promised land” of Canaan
the lands the Hebrews didn’t control during this time, was called Land of the Philistines and Phoenicia.
the Greeks also recognized the “Palestine was a district in Syria” and they called the northern part Phoenicia, the Phoenicians called it “Canaan”,
The Romans called the whole area “Syria Palestina” and the Europeans continued to call it “Palestine” (the Arabs called it Filasṭīn) –
it was also called the Levant and south Syria.
The land where Gaza, Israel, and West Bank sits on now, was called “Ottoman Syria” — because it was ruled by the Ottomon Turks (since 1516) prior to the European invasion during WWI
The British and French are the ones who divided up Ottoman Syria in 1916, and creating borders and splitting up countries (such as Kuwait from Iraq, Lebanon from Syria) — a move which is Still causing chaos right now in the middle east —
the Europeans divided up Ottoman Syria into distinctive areas that they called the British Mandate of Mesopotamia, British Mandate of Palestine, and the French Mandate of Syria
and as we all know, the British created the country of Israel in 1948 out of the territory they called “Palestine” — this was the name that the Europeans used at the time.
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King,
I’m afraid that is incorrect. If that were the case, then there would have been no Israel the entire time when the New Testament was written, when it was well documented to exist by historians and by Roman records of tax collection.
The fall of Judea/Israel came much later in 70 A.D. under the Roman General, Titus
Linda says,
There was no kingdom called “Israel” when the new Testament was written.
The Kingdom of Israel was created by King Saul in 1200s and was later divided into the Kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom of Judah by King Solomon’s sons.
The Kingdom of Israel was conquered by the Assyrians but the Kingdom of Judah survived.
The Babylonians conquered the Kingdom of Judah in 590 and when the Persians defeated the Babylonians, they allowed the Jews from Judah to come back but it never regained its “Independence”–
it was always controlled by the ruling foreign power (Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Ottomans)
The Romans destroyed and exiled the Jews from the City of Jerusalem in 70 AD. after the siege of Jerusalem but Jerusalem was now part of the Roman Empire, there was no Israel left after the fall of Judah.
“When the Babylonians defeated the Egyptians in 605 BC, then Judah became a tribute state to Babylon. But when the Babylonians suffered a defeat in 601 BC, the king of Judah, Jehoiakim, defected to the Egyptians. So the Babylonian king, Nebuchadnezzar, raised an expedition to punish Judah in 597 BC. The new king of Judah, Jehoiachin, handed the city of Jerusalem over to Nebuchadnezzar, who then appointed a new king over Judah, Zedekiah. In line with Mesopotamian practice, Nebuchadnezzar deported around 10,000 Jews to his capital in Babylon; all the deportees were drawn from professionals, the wealthy, and craftsmen. Ordinary people were allowed to stay in Judah. This deportation was the beginning of the Exile.
The Hebrew kingdom, started with such promise and glory by David, was now at an end. It would never appear again, except for a brief time in the second century BC, and to the Jews forced to relocate and the Jews left to scratch out a living in their once proud kingdom, it seemed as if no Jewish nation would ever exist again.”
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Kingdoms1.html
The City of Jerusalem always retained it’s name and Jewish people remained in the city but the Kingdom of Judah/Israels ceased to exist after the Persians.
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“Mbeti
another thing about the isreal Palestine conflict the Palestinian tend to be darker i.e have melanin in their epidermis then the current Israeli Jews.”
Linda says,
The people we call “Palestinians” descended from the native/indigenous Semites (the non-Jewish/Hebrew Aramaic people) and Hebrew people, and they intermixed with Arabs (Bedouins and other Arabic speaking groups) — the modern day Palestinians are genetically just as “Hebrew” as the modern day Jewish Israelis.
The non-Jewish Semites spoke Aramaic (Assyrians, Amalek, Amorites, Edomites, and various Canaanite ethnic groups) and had lived in this region prior to the arrival of the Jews/Hebrews.
The Palestinians are “Arab speaking people” and converted to Islam after the “Arab invasion”
The real Arabs/pure Arabs originated in Yemen/Saudi Arabia. These Arab Muslims entered the picture in 633 AD when they came up out of the Saudi Arabian region and took Syria, Palestina/ Levant from the Romans, which is what we all commonly refer to as the “Arab Invasion” that continued into Africa and into Iraq/Persia.
But the Palestinians of today share paternal DNA with many of the Jews/Hebrews in Israel
“We propose that the Y chromosomes in Palestinian Arabs and Bedouin represent, to a large extent, early lineages derived from the Neolithic inhabitants of the area and additional lineages from more-recent population movements. The early lineages are part of the common chromosome pool shared with Jews (Nebel et al. 2000).”
http://epiphenom.fieldofscience.com/2009/01/shared-genetic-heritage-of-jews-and.html
but their maternal lineage differs based on the locality of each group,
the Palestinians did intermix with Arab, Egyptian/African, and Mediterraneans, and the Jews tried to keep it all in family but “when in Rome”
“The team found that four founders were responsible for 40 percent of Ashkenazi mitochondrial DNA, and that all of these founders originated in Europe. The majority of the remaining people could be traced to other European lineages.
All told, more than 80 percent of the maternal lineages of Ashkenazi Jews could be traced to Europe, with only a few lineages originating in the Near East.”
http://www.livescience.com/40247-ashkenazi-jews-have-european-genes.html
So anyone who is trying to say that the native Palestinians came to the region after the Jews, are liars who are purposely trying to distort history
All of these Semitic Hebrews, non-Hebrew Semites, and Arab groups have been in this region and fighting with each other for thousands of years —
The nation of Israel does have a right to exist but they remain on top mainly because of their superior weapons, wealth, technology and support from USA and Europe…. obviously, the playing field with the Palestinians is not equal.
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I believe you are correct. There was no Kingdom called “Israel” but the Jewish state was reestablished. Jews began returning from Babylon about 539 B.C. and they rebuilt the Jewish temple and the walls of the city of Jerusalem.
The Jews later clashed notably with the expanding Greek empire, including the conquest of the Seleucids during the Maccabean period. And of course were later conquered by the Romans, becoming a client state under a line of Idumean vassal kings. But in all of this they were still the same “Jewish State” holding roughly the same geographical area.
I think there was reasonable continuity of that state, in its various forms until 70 A.D. when the final diaspora eliminated the Jewish state for thousands of years until the Modern State of Israel was created following WWII.
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^Oh that was to you, Linda 🙂
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“King,
I think there was reasonable continuity of that state, in its various forms until 70 A.D.”
Linda says,
yes, they did their best to hang on… the Maccabeans (Hasmonean dynasty) managed to last for about 100 years (164 BC to 63 BC) before it became a “protectorate of Rome”
I realize this this “Israel/Judah” you were talking about in reference to the new testament but by the time Jesus was born, they were a shell because the original Maccabeans were ruthless.
This period, to me, is a very Sad period for the Jews… so much “in-fighting” assassinations, civil war (a’s kissing the Romans)– they behaved a lot like the people who they were originally conquered by, the Greeks. I guess this is when they learned to do “whatever it takes” to survive.
I respect the Jews, because throughout everything, no matter what, in spirit, they remained “the Kingdom of Judah”— their spiritual nationalism carried them through their reality of centuries of persecution.
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“So anyone who is trying to say that the native Palestinians came to the region after the Jews, are liars who are purposely trying to distort history”
These are people who hang on to the 19th cenruty idea of “peoples” or “nations” as seperate entities that remain the same. It’s no use to discuss with them as long they hang on to that notion, because the whole premise is wrong. We know today that ethnic groups form and reform all the time, incorporate new people and let others go.
I think all that pondering about who came first and who has the right to be there is counterproductive. The nation of Israel was created through force and violence, as nearly all nations have. What they have to work out now, is how to live in peace next to each other. History won’t help with that.
Israel certainly has greatly benefited from western support since the sixties, but it’s more ambigous before that. And the Arab forces have been supportet by the Soviet Union. I think especially the victory of 1948 was a great achievment, for which i respect the Israelis deeply, even though they committed some crimes along the way.
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To pick up on what Linda said, my understanding is that the Jewishness of European Jews is more cultural than genetic. They have no more right to “return” and violently take over what we now call Israel than, say, Hawaiians have the right to “return” and violently take over Britain.
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@ sb
Talk about blaming the victim! Israel bombs the power and sewage plants in Gaza. It also maintains a siege that keeps spare parts and much else in short supply.
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@sb32199
“If they did care, neither the Gaza Strip nor the Palestinian sections of the West Bank would be the dumps they are.”
Completely irrelevant to the fact that most countries and the UN recognise Palestine as a state. Whenever you’re wrong, you have a habit of drifting off into some meaningless drivel that has nothing to do with your prior claims.
“My opinion, as irrelevant as it is to you, is widely embraced where it matters.”
Your opinion is irrelevant to the false claims you have made. And “widely embraced” is another unsubstantiated opinion.
“Meanwhile, if you want to focus on irrelevancies, you can focus on statements the head Hamas psychopath makes to the world media.”
If you make a false claim about Hamas’ policy, then it’s not irrelevant when I give a direct quote from its current leader.
“…if you’re really seeking a mutually-agreeable solution to a problem and the more powerful side offers you 98 percent of what you want, you take the offer.”
You’ve pulled 98% from your rear end, b/c Israel has not given into any of Hamas’ demands. Of course, I don’t blame you for your ignorance, I blame the zionist-controlled American media.
“The surrender worked out well for Japan. It worked for Germany too.”
That’s an unsurprisingly terrible analogy, since Palestinian gov’t is not an aggressor. The Palestinian gov’t is not illegally settling Israel, erecting walls through Israeli communities, restricting the movement of people and commerce, and bombing Israeli children and infrastructure, etc. It is the Israeli gov’t doing these things to Palestinians, whether you accept it or not.
@Mbeti
“another thing about the isreal Palestine conflict the Palestinian tend to be darker i.e have melanin in their epidermis then the current Israeli Jews.”
We have to remember that apart from the minority of African Jews and Arab Jews and Muslims who live in Israel, most Israelis are descendants of Europeans who have no ancestry in Palestine, as Abagond said.
Many of them converted to Judasim to escape the Christian/Muslim disputes.
@Linda
“it’s been invaded and occupied by many foreign people through out history”
Yes, it has, and for sb32199 and other zionists to insinuate that Jews somehow have more claim to it is preposterous.
Re: “Kingdom of Israel/Judah”
These are fictitious entities. There is no evidence that there was a “Kingdom of Judah” or “Israel” prior to 1947 AD.
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@ sb
“If the so-called Palestinians keep up their lunacy, Israel may shut off the electricity that’s piped over the border every day. The so-called Palestinians are so lacking in basic technical knowledge that they can’t build and maintain a power plant.”
that’s ignorant, the palestinians basically have to have all imports come through israel, they have no airport, etc.
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@ Abagond
I’ve not had a chance yet to properly read the whole thread, but from my understanding, Jewishness is not only cultural or religious, it IS also genetic.
And, as controversial as the concept of a Jewish People is, it has some grounds to it. After all, we’re talking about the effects of generations of endogamy and isolation, which was sometimes self-imposed — particularly among the Ashkenazim. (I guess that is why Sephardic Jews have a less distinct DNA because they intermarried more. Blame the Inquisition.)
If ever there was such a thing as “Jewish diseases”, they appear to exist markedly among the Ashkenazim. Sephardi and Mezrahi Jews tend to have show up other disorders more associated with the countries they came from.
https://www.jewishgenetics.org/sephardic-genetic-traits
The thing is, when talk like this is tied up with land and politics…we enter some dangerous territory.
Entitlement to land by blood, in this context, sounds like the rhetoric of early Zionism, something that also of the late 19th century Western obsession with race…but it’s also the basis of The Law of Return, the grounding principle of Israel as a State.
Yet, aren’t the genetic markets that bind Mirahi, Sephardi and Ashkenazi, ALSO the same ones that bind them to Palestinians, too — who are genetic cousins — literally?
There’s a book I’d like to read about genetic bonds between various groups of Jews by Harry Ostrer: (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Legacy-Genetic-History-Jewish-People-ebook/dp/B008MWL9HG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1406562078&sr=8-1&keywords=harry+ostrer)
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@ Abagond
contd
Some aspects of the controversy about Israelis and Palestinians has much to do with more recent theories that was put out by Arthur Koestler in his book from the 1970s “The 13th Tribe” in which which, according to the blurb, he:
“advances the thesis that Ashkenazi Jews are not descended from the historical Israelites of antiquity, but from Khazars, a Turkic people. Koestler’s hypothesis is that the Khazars (who converted to Judaism in the 8th century) migrated westwards into Eastern Europe in the 12th and 13th centuries when the Khazar Empire was collapsing.
Ashkenazis, then, aren’t the children of Abraham, they are a kind of “European” or “Eurasian” upstart instead.
But how much of this theory is politically motivated?
Arthur Koestler (and others after him) may have manipulated certain details, such as this one: the conversion to Judaism was absolutley limited, and did not spread to the general pagan population at all.
But, as historical information that countered that theory was slow to surface at the time the book was published, Koestler’s theory turned into a raging best-sellers…a great story, and to hell with the contradictory details.
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Ashkenazi Jews (those from central and eastern Europe) make up only 35% of the Jewish population in Israel. Just tossing that in there for those who see Jews as a white, European population, and the Palestinians as people of color.
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resw77,
You’ve pulled 98% from your rear end, b/c Israel has not given into any of Hamas’ demands. Of course, I don’t blame you for your ignorance, I blame the zionist-controlled American media.
The so-called Palestinians make only two relevant demands on Israel. A return to the 1967 borders AND the Right of Return.
Neither demand will be met. As I said, Israel offered 98 percent of the land. The other 2 percent is tied to Israel’s self-defense. For the same reason, Israel will always reject the demand for the Right of Return. The so-called Palestinians claim the population of their imaginary nation is well over 4 million.
As we know, if Israel granted citizenship to more than 4 million muslims, they would immediately destroy Israel through the ballot box. Thus, the so-called Palestinians will never see the realization of that goofy demand
As you know, my information is accurate, just as it was accurate with respect to the Hamas Charter. What’s sadly amusing is someone like you who believes a society that manufactures nothing but hopelessness, despair and poverty — that’s what Islam does by cutting off every right needed for happiness and prosperity — should receive sympathy.
Though you haven’t forthrightly said it, it seems you’re claiming that Israel has no right to exist. But it does exist, and it’s continued existence and growing prosperity are part of the daily humiliations that beset the hapless but violent so-called Palestinians, who repeatedly prove they can’t see beyond their Islamic psychosis.
If they agreed to the terms of a two-state solution offered by Israel, they’d be on their way to peace and prosperity in no time. Instead, they fight to maintain their misery. In fact, Islam has so destroyed their vision of life that they don’t really know what it means to live in a society that can focus on prosperity and well being for all.
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Paul the Apostle referred to himself as a “Hebrew of the Hebrews” (ancestry). He was a devout Jew and upon conversion, an even more determined and zealous Christian (religion). He was also a Roman citizen (country where he was granted and could exercise his legal rights). MY POINT? Can Arabs and Jews live together? It’s doable. They just have to want to do it. It’s a situation that only they can reconcile. It won’t ever happen as long as they both keep killing each other!
Thanks for shining a spotlight on this lady, Rula Jebreal. Never heard of her.
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@sb32199
“The so-called Palestinians make only two relevant demands on Israel. A return to the 1967 borders AND the Right of Return.”
That’s more than fair, and as mentioned multiple times before, Hamas also demands an end to Israeli occupation of Gaza and the West Bank and elimination of the walls that run through Palestinian communities, both of which are supported by the international community.
“As I said, Israel offered 98 percent of the land. ”
No, I don’t know where you get that from. Israel has not agreed to return 98% of the land in accordance with the 1967 borders, and which you clearly don’t understand, is settling more and more West Bank land each year. Even the zionist-influenced gov’ts of US, Britain and France opposed these new settlements.
“As we know, if Israel granted citizenship to more than 4 million muslims”
Hamas does not demand Israeli citizenship for Palestinians, so once again, you’re mouthing off about stuff you don’t know.
“As you know, my information is accurate, just as it was accurate with respect to the Hamas Charter. ”
No, you haven’t made one accurate claim, not one.
“But it does exist, and it’s continued existence and growing prosperity are part of the daily humiliations that beset the hapless but violent so-called Palestinians”
Laughable. Again, the Israeli gov’t has killed far more people and destroyed far more Palestinian infrastructure, so it’s no question that the Israelis are more violent and destructive
“If they agreed to the terms of a two-state solution offered by Israel”
Israel has not agreed to the terms of a two-state solution offered by Israel. Its gov’t has consistently reneged on its promises. Netanyahu said ” there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan.” So much for YOUR imaginary two-state solution offered by Israel.
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@Benjamin
I don’t think anyone here is debating the diversity of Israelis. But Israelis of European descent make up the largest segment of the entire population, 26%, according to the Central Bureau of Statistics, and are unsurprisingly at the top of the political structure. Netanyahu’s father was Polish, and Ehud Olmert’s parents were from USSR, for example. These are the same people behind the racist policies against the Beta Israel people from Ethiopia and the destruction and occupation of Palestine.
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***Swoon/Heart Melts*** Every time I see this woman. She and Angela Rye are some of the realest sistas you’ll see in the political realm.
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I think it is pretty well known too that mizrahis and sephardites are discriminated especially for positions of power or prestige (research and University scholars). How can Ashkenazi men justify their monopoly of political and economical power and scholarship over Ashkenazi women (same genes) and over other Jews (same culture)? Nobody in the world has monopoly over those things over any other population.
Classic example of discrimination.
In addition, there’s a lot despicable videos that anybody can google about protests from israeli jews against african refugees and immigrants (primarily sudanese and some east african nations). It is pretty outrageous what these descendants of immigrants say (classic racist rhetoric against african people, bringing up Obama among other things…).
The main problem that Israel will always face is that it pretends that it will be possible to be a monocultural, monoethnic, titular nation, which is and continue to be a myth anywhere in this planet.
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Here are just two of the most damning videos:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-18292716
One old man says we should like normal countries do…. like in USA
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xrjmlt_israel-s-illegal-immigrants_news
And this is pretty wealthy country (in global terms).
I saw another video that mizrahis are the ones that protest the most, but a jewish women mentioned their problems of poverty and exclusion existed before the Africans arrival. The attitude towards migrants is just a reflection of this very society with deep seeded sociological pathologies….
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Another woman’s opinion on the so-called Palestinians.
http://thefederalist.com/2014/05/01/what-happens-when-a-palestinian-doesnt-hate-israel-enough/
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@sb32199
Impressive article.
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Wowww, sb32199… Palestine society actually discriminates based on “religion”…say it ain’t so!!!
wow, that’s new…I’ve never heard of a modern day country in this world Ever doing that … shocking
thanks for that brand new information…
I mean, who would have thought that a middle eastern country/region “renowned” for killing Christians and Jews during the Roman Empire days (you know, back when Jesus was around, before the Muslims even showed up) would EVER think to discriminate against Christians today
So lets all praise Israel for being open about religion… because as we all know, the Israelis would Never discriminate against Anyone based on Anything because as a former persecuted people, they are Perfect.
Sarcasm now turned off
Every country in this world manages to discriminate against their “minority” population(s) and typically this discrimination is based on religion, race, colour, sexual orientation, physical handicap, immigration status, …etc, etc, etc
welcome to the Real World — you have yet to say anything of relevance that the rest of us don’t know
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“My feelings pale into insignificance compared to the enormity of the tragedy confronting each and every other person in Gaza at this time. It’s important to humanize the statistics and to realize that there is a human being with a heart and soul behind each statistic and that the humanity that lies behind these statistics should never be forgotten.”
^ Quote from a UN official, refocusing attention on Israel’s attack on Gaza, after it was seen that the official had broken down over the attacks after an interview:
http://mashable.com/2014/07/30/un-official-breaks-down-gaza/
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Abagond, if you ever get the time, a post on the Mizrahi Jews would be interesting.
They are the Jews who remained behind or where deported to other countries when the Jews were exiled from Judah/Jerusalem after foreign invasions.
The Mizrahi’s were actually called “refugees” back in 1950s because they were being kicked out of their respective countries or they chose to go to Israel to help grow the “new country”.
The Mizrahis are the “real” middle eastern Jews who link the Jews back to the Hebrews of 1200 BC.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/01/10/the-mizrahi-jewish-refugee-problem.html
“ Troy describes Mizrahi—a term meaning “Eastern,” fraught with its own conceptions of West and East—Jews as “Sephardi,” a term still in use by some in Israel today.
The problem with the term “Sephardi” is twofold. It refers to Jews who were expelled from Spain in the Christian Reconquista before, during and after 1492. These Jews retained part of their Spanish identity where they settled, mainly in North Africa, but also in other areas.
But there were other Middle Eastern Jews living at the same time with no conception of Sephardi identity, with no link to Spain.
The Baghdadi Jewish community, for instance, was even an integral part of a rival Islamic caliphate. The Palestinian Jewish community lived where they always had—in and around historic Palestine. Yemeni Jews thrived in the far southwest of the Arabian Peninsula—without a single link to Spain.”
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Israel was discriminating against their own before the African refugees show up
The Mizrahi Jews formed a group called the “Black Panthers” back in the 1970s, modeled after the black American movement in the 1960s
So interesting to see how many “oppressed” people back then looked to black Americans to find their voice for Civil Rights… the northern Irish people also looked towards black Americans as inspiration.
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Here is a link about the Israeli “Black Panthers”
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/jerusalem-neighborhood-to-name-streets-in-honor-of-mizrahi-black-panthers-1.369313
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Linda, you seem to have an oddly twisted view of Jews and Judaism. If there’s any characteristic that helps to define the Jewish world, that characteristic is “diversity”.
If you’re looking for uniformity or a homogenous culture, you won’t find it among Jews.
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@ Linda
The relationship is a 2-way street. Totally.
Or, even the other way round — could Irish Rebellion have in fact inspired the black American drive for Civil Rights?
It is often believed that oppressed peoples back then looked to black Americans to find their voice for Civil Rights. I don’t doubt this, but its singularity is not strictly true, as inspiration came from many sources, and different places. This fact which is often omitted and therefore becomes consistently forgotten, ending up as a Single Story that hides a more complex truth.
The people of Northern Ireland — more correctly the Irish in general — had 100s of years of history of FIGHTING BACK against the violence, enslavement and occupation they endured under British Rule.
Early Irish Republicanism was inspired by Revolutionary France and other democratic and nationalist feelings sweeping through Europe at the time. Some of the Irish rebels fought back at home, and some fought back from their new home in the US. An early manifestation of that was the formation of Fenian Brotherhood, back in the 1830s.
http://www.fenians.org/fenianbrotherhood.htm
Should it be any surprise then, that the great Marcus Garvey, a Jamaican of African descent, and probably the exemplary exponent of Black Nationalism and a huge influence on movements such as the Black Panthers, was, himself partly inspired by the Irish movement for independence from English rule?
Didn’t he even nam his UNIA (Universal Negro Improvement Association) HQ, Liberty Hall, after Liberty Hall in Dublin, Ireland which was the symbolic seat of the Irish Revolution?
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contd:
To recap context in the American past: the category of “black” and “Irish” were not the worlds apart that they are now.
The Irish for some while were as likely to marry black people as any other group of people.
Accordingly: to many, the Irishman was the “white negro,” conversely, an African-American was often known as a “smoked Irishman.”
Who is to say that the desire Civil Rights wasn’t discussed by the Irish and black (and their offspring) from these early days of a shared and lowly status?
More:
Garvey stated that in the far-famed Pan-African flag (which he created) the green symbolised the struggle of the Irish to free themselves from the colonial oppression of Britain.
Garvey too, was involved in Afro-Irish-Zionist Alliance-an organisation promoting the rising up of oppressed peoples worldwide, most namely: the Irish, Jews, and blacks of the world.
In 1919 (just one week after the third annual “Irish Race Convention”) Garvey called for an “International Convention of Negro Peoples of the World.” The “Irish Race Convention” was an amalgam of varied interests in the Irish-American community calling for official recognition and support for the Irish Republic.
Garvey was very much influenced by Irish sedition and rebellion…he saw a blueprint for what needed to be done for his own people in the Americas and Africa.
The principal informant of the MID (Military Intelligence Division of the U.S. government) on “negro subversion,” maintained that the UNIA and the “Friends of Irish Freedom” (sponsors of the Irish race convention) were linked.
Indeed, Garvey himself, in the inaugural convention of the UNIA, in August 1920, in New York, begun his oration- “I have in my hand . . . a telegram to be sent to the Hon. Edmund De Valera, President of the Irish Republic: “25,000 Negro delegates assembled in Madison Square Garden in mass convention, representing 400,000,000 Negroes of the world, send you greetings as President of the Irish Republic. Please accept the sympathy of the Negroes of the world for your cause. We believe Ireland should be free even as Africa shall be free for the Negroes of the world. Keep up the fight for a free Ireland. Marcus Garvey, President-General of the Universal Negro Improvement Association.”
…To Garvey, the cause of Irish freedom was the cause of African freedom
From: http://ildaite.blogspot.ie/2012/10/to-noble-marcus-garvey-and-paddies-ever.html
The relationship that the Irish (particularly the Irish Republicanist political party, Sinn Fein) have traditionally had with other oppressed peoples has been close.
This was something I mentioned on the Nelson Mandela thread, in regard to the South African and ANC activist, Professor Kader Asmal who:
…who taught law at Trinity College Dublin for 27 years, specialising in human rights, labour, and international law.
He co-founded the Irish Anti-Apartheid Movement in 1963 and served as Chair until his return to South Africa in 1990. He was part of the ANC team that negotiated the transition to democracy.
In 1994, he became Minister for Water Affairs and Forestry in the first ANC Government after the advent of democracy and served as Minister for Education from 1999 to 2004…
From the link provided here:
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sb32199
Linda, you seem to have an oddly twisted view of Jews and Judaism.
Linda says,
Nope, I just think you are full of sh’t and you are Truly the Last commenter on this board who should utter the word “diversity” — you don’t know the real meaning of the word “diversity” with your “only white people are the best” – pro-white race realist ignorant views
your opinions are the only “oddly twisted” views that we all have to be subjected to since you feel the need to broadcast your ignorance on almost every post Abagond writes.
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@ Linda, I ALSO believe that many oppressed people’s look to black Americans to frame their struggle for Civil — and Human — Rights.
Black Americans, as part of a larger and superpowerful nation on the world stage, have come to embody that “template” and rhetoric.
In a sense this is a good thing, as it serves as a model for resistance.
But it isn’t the only or “biggest” one. That’s the problem with perceptions.
There are problems that come with it being a model because the historical ‘journey’ of black Americans’ is unique and multi-faceted, and the unique-ness and multi-faceted nature of of other peoples’ dehumanisation and oppression should not, and cannot be, measured against it alone.
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Bulanik,
Marcus Garvey was a Jamaican Maroon, he was born sucking on the tits of “sedition and rebellion” 🙂
I mentioned the northern Irish because I remembered reading that one their marches was inspired by Martin Luther King and the Selma marches.
here’s an article about it:
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/bsunday/chron.htm
“Wednesday 1 January 1969
Approximately 40 members of People’s Democracy (PD) began a four-day march from Belfast across Northern Ireland to Derry. The Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association (NICRA) and some nationalists in Derry had advised against the march. The march was modelled on Martin Luther King’s Selma to Montgomery march. The first day involved a walk from Belfast to Antrim. [Over the next four days the number of people on the march grew to a few hundred. The march was confronted and attacked by Loyalist crowds on a number of occasions the most serious attack occurring on 4 January 1969.]”
so yes, I also believe in the view that “nothing happens in a vacuum” and I think it’s a wonderful thing when ideas can be shared and come full circle
I also think it’s good thing for black Americans and their psyche, to know that they have inspired other people in the world because I think sometimes, they (black Americans) and everyone else, forget that people outside of the USA do indeed watch what they, and America, do
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Bulanik, comment in moderation to you, but in essence
I said, I also believe that nothing is done in a vacuum and ideas typically find themselves moving from place to place.
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Linda, your reply remains unseen in moderation for now, and I need to sign off in a moment.
Ideas move and aren’t in a vacuum. Yes, absolutely.
However, as we know all too well, when their origins remain unmentioned or unattributed, they don’t only appear “irrelevant”, but achieve a kind of invisiblity, as if they never existed at all.
This was something Jefe and I discovered whilst exploring the history of the Asian slave trade: it appears as nothing next to the the enslavement of Africans: a best smaller, or an anomaly, but generally: a sidenote.
Without being specific, things get lost.
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Linda says:
Nope, I just think you are full of sh’t and you are Truly the Last commenter on this board who should utter the word “diversity” — you don’t know the real meaning of the word “diversity” with your “only white people are the best” – pro-white race realist ignorant views
How about giving me an example of a black nation that offers life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, where the population is reasonably educated, prosperity is well known and violence is minimal?
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@sb32199
“How about giving me an example of a black nation that offers life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, where the population is reasonably educated, prosperity is well known and violence is minimal?”
Frankly, I don’t see any connection between this question/intervention and the rest of the discussion. Why don’t you try to stay on topic? There are many other threads in this blog where the aforementioned question could better fit. Here most commentators, probably, will ignore it and will not help you.
Anyway, I think that Bahamas and Trinidad and Tobago are good examples of reasonably prosperous countries that I can remember.
Most “black countries” are developing entities (like teenagers versus middle aged or mature individuals). In due time they certainly will reach more prosperity than now.
I’m done with your off topic issue. Don’t bother even replying or pushing the discussion further off topic. You can research those topics by yourself…
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Linda writes:
“So interesting to see how many “oppressed” people back then looked to black Americans to find their voice for Civil Rights….”
_ _ _
Thank you so much, Linda, for acknowledging the impact of the Black American Civil Rights movement. Not only did it impact the lives of Blacks, Asians and Latinos here in the US, but also on the lives of Blacks in places like the UK and Canada as well.
Other oppressed groups such as the Dalits of India, the Blacks of Brazils, and the Aboriginals of Australia have also acknowledged taking inspiration from the American Black Panther Party and the Black American Civil Rights Movement.
And you are correct to include the Irish in this, Linda, as I have heard acknowlegement of this from their quarters as well.
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Abagond;
A piece on the US Civil Rights Movement and the Black Panther Party, and their impact on non-Black Americans — both inside AND outside the US — might make a thought-provoking blog post.
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@Linda and Pay It Forward
I like your perspectives because if it wasn’t for the Civil Rights Movement, my family from Jamaica and other non White minorities probably wouldn’t have the chance to come here and succeed. I appreciate and thank African Americans for fighting for their rights in the Civil Rights Movement. Your struggle and fight has influenced many oppressed groups throughout the world. And as a first generation Black American woman of Jamaican immigrants, I appreciate and thank African Americans for fighting for their rights to be treated with respect and their rights to vote, own land and send their children to good schools.
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Sorry if I repeated myself. I truly believe the Civil Rights Movement was a great feat.
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@ sb32199
Do you mean a Black nation that was never colonized and ruled by Whites, because that becomes an issue.
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Adeen writes:
“I like your perspectives because if it wasn’t for the Civil Rights Movement, my family from Jamaica and other non White minorities probably wouldn’t have the chance to come here and succeed. I appreciate and thank African Americans for fighting for their rights in the Civil Rights Movement. Your struggle and fight has influenced many oppressed groups throughout the world.”
_ _ _
Adeen, I too am very appreciative of the good fight fought by individuals of earlier generations. And while they primarily were the descendants of US enslaved Africans, there were Blacks of Caribbean descent, Jews, WASPs and others as well who fought along side them. Some lost their lives. I am appreciative of all who joined in.
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king asks:
Do you mean a Black nation that was never colonized and ruled by Whites, because that becomes an issue.
A black nation never colonized and/or ruled by whites would be fine. Or a white nation colonized and/or ruled by blacks is also acceptable.
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Something tells me Rula Jebreal won’t mention the attitude Hamas takes toward photographers.
http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/31/spanish-journalist-on-why-hamas-never-photographed-in-action-if-ever-we-dared-point-our-camera-on-them-they-would-simply-shoot-at-us-and-kill-us/
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@Pay It Forward
Yes, same here. Glad we agree about the positive effects the Civil Rights Movement in America had on the world.
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@ sb32199
I’m going to say, the Bermudas (even though colonized) because so much of the world has been colonized by European powers at one point or another. The majority of the population has always been Black, in modern times, the Premiers of Bermuda have most often bee Black. It’s prosperous, and low crime.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/bd.html
“Economy – overview:
Despite four years of recession and a public debt of $1.4 billion, Bermuda enjoys the fourth highest per capita income in the world, about 70% higher than that of the US. The average cost of a single-family home in 2012 was $1.1 million. Its economy is primarily based on international business and the provision of financial services to that sector, and to a lesser extent tourism. A number of reinsurance companies relocated to the island following the 11 September 2001 attacks on the US and again after Hurricanes Katrina, Rita, and Wilma in 2005, contributing to the expansion of an already robust international business sector. Bermuda’s tourism industry – which derives over 80% of its visitors from the US – continues to struggle and has dropped in its relevant importance to the economy, although it is still important as a job creator. Bermuda must import almost everything. Agriculture is limited due to the small size of the island and Bermuda’s industrial sector is small.”
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@sbs32199
Why are you on here if you think Black people are inferior and haven’t contributed anything to the world? Why talk, discuss and argue with people who you think are BENEATH you? Now that is what I wonder.
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The American Civil Rights movement had a global effect as did the Haitian Revolution. The Haitians pretty much single-handedly freed themselves from their oppressors and voted them off the island. How many people realize that Haiti is the second oldest republic in the Western Hemisphere after the United States. The Haitian revolution was a few decades after American independence. After the revolution Haiti was basically isolated, placed under seige, and extorted by the combined naval power of France and the good ol’ USA. That tactic of economic warfare meant that Haiti started out under a huge debt burden and has never fully recovered. A society can’t truly thrive when the people are trying to survive. Yet, the Haitian revolution had ripple effects including facilitating the Louisiana Purchase by throwing a wrench in Napoleon’s imperial ambitions.
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I didn’t realize my previous response was part of a ‘black people haven’t contributed anything’ broken record. I just saw mention of civil rights and jumped in. If I had known I wouldn’t have.
Anyway, I thought some of you might find the video below interesting because the analogies to South African Apartheid has come up in this thread.
It’s a video of Mandela answering some questions about the occupation of Palestine in a town-hall meeting setting.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5TiUhhm7cQ)
Here’s a partial transcript with most of the content for those who can read faster than they can listen.
Ken Adelman: Those of us who share your struggle for human rights and against Apartheid have been somewhat disappointed by the models of human rights that you have held up since being released from jail. You’ve met over the last six months three times with Yasser Arafat. Are these your models of leaders of human rights and if so would you want a Gadaffi or an Arafat or a Castro to be a future president of South Africa,
Mandela: One of the mistakes which some political analysts make is to think that their enemies should be our enemies.
[applause]
Our attitude towards any country is determined by the atittude of that country to our struggle.
[applause]
Yasser Arafat, Colonel Gadaffi, Fidel Castro, support our struggle to the hilt.
[applause]
They do not support it only in rhetoric. They are placing resources at our disposal for us … to win the struggle.
[applause]
That is the position.
[…]
Ted Koppel: Mr Mandela, as I mentioned to you before the program we also have some distinguished guests sitting behind us one of whom, Mr. Henry Siegman together with two other Jewish leaders came to Geneva to visit with you precisely because they were so concerned, not only by the kind of thing that you just said before the break with regard to Yasser Arafat, with regard to Libya’s Colonel Gadaffi, but also because of the support that you seemed at different times to give to the PLO [Palestinian Liberation Organization]. I would like to ask Mr. Siegman to stand now for a moment and pose whatever question he would like directly to you. Mr. Siegman:
Henry Siegman: I think I would be dishonest if I did not express profound disappointment with the answer Mr. Mandela gave to the previous question because it suggests a certain degree of amorality.
[audience groans]
Mandela: As far as Yasser Arafat is concerned I explained to Mr. Siegman that we identify with the PLO because just like ourselves they are fighting for the right of self-determination.
[…]
Ted Koppel [host] : Mr Mandela, we have just heard a number of the things that you said in our hour between 10:00 and 11:00 this evening. Some controversial things. Not the kind of things, necessarily, that a very political man says. If you were very political you might have been more concerned about not alienating some people in this country who have it within their hands, within their power, either to continue sanctions against South Africa or to raise those sanctions, to lift them. Why were you not a little more political? Perhaps we’re a bit too accustomed to politicians in this country.
Mandela: I do not understand what you mean. Perhaps if you clarify what you [inaudible] I may be in a position to comment.
Ted Koppel: What I’m saying is that in this country, for example for many years, a close alliance between the Jewish population and the black population in the civil rights struggle. There is likely to be a rather negative reaction to some of the things that you have said. That reaction could very well cause people to call up their congressmen, their senators, and say go ahead lift the sanctions. Why not? After all, President de Klerk is doing a great deal against Apartheid – only today his number two man, Gerrit Viljoen, said that the government perceives itself in South Africa as being part of the anti-Apartheid struggle.
[Mandela bursts out laughing and audience follows]
Mandela: As far as the Jewish question, to begin with, I have had discussions at my own initiative with prominent Jewish leaders to straighten out this affair. Amongst the people I saw was Mrs. Helen Suzman who has been an MP in our country for more than fifty years. There was Mr. Maisels who has been a judge in Lesotho, Botswana, and the old Rhodesia. There was the chief Rabbi of Johannesburg, there was Professor Katz (?) from the University of Witwatersrand and an eminent community leader in South Africa. We discussed this question and all misunderstanding was cleared, the question of Yasser Arafat and the PLO. I have also discussed the question with the Jewish leader in the USA and very top people like Mr. Siegman. We reached an agreement on this question and we saw eye-to-eye. Now I don’t know where your concern arises. The Jewish leaders themselves are able to determine their own affairs. Nobody else is entitled to say that the Jewish leaders are going to be concerned about your stand because I [Koppel attempts to interrupt, Mandela continues] because I had the discussions with them and those discussions reached consensus but there are matters, of course, which we did not agree but the position which we take as the ANC I thought we were able to explain it in such a way that it removed the concern of the Jewish community. [Koppel attempts to interrupt again] I am still prepared to do that even in this talk. If a Jewish leader have any doubts about our stand I am prepared to address them and to allay their concerns because they are a very important community both in South Africa and, of course, in the states and I’m prepared to iron out any differences that might exist. But they must know what our stand is. Arafat is a comrade in arms and we treat him as such.
[…]
Mandela: We have many Jews, members of the Jewish community, in our struggle and they have occupied very top positions but that does not mean to say that the enemies of Israel are our enemies. We refuse to take that position. You can call it being political or a moral question but for anybody who changes his principles depending on whom he is dealing that is not a man who can lead a nation.
[audience applauds]
Apparently, Mr Koppel, you have not listened to my argument. If you have done so then you have not been serious in examining it. I have applied to one of our friends here that I have refused to be drawn into the differences thqt existed between various communities inside the USA. You have not commented that I will offend anybody by refusing to involve myself in the internal affairs of the USA. Why are you so keen that I should involve myself in the internal affairs of Cuba and Libya? I expect you to be consistent. [pauses] I don’t know if I have paralyzed you. [smiles]
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Gadaffi, Arafat and Castro? Three extraordinary abusers of human rights. Of civil rights. Based on the preceding commentary and the passage of time, Mandela has shown he was a fool.
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What do people really know about Libya before and after Gadaffi? I read that under Gadaffi Libyans had health care, education and subsidized housing. Apparently, Libyan students could study there or abroad and the govt would pay. It is similar for Cubans under Castro. Cubans have health care and education up to the tertiary level even despite the embargo. Cuba has way fewer resources than the USA and is able to provide that. I certainly don’t consider the above to be violations of human rights. We need to stop sticking our noses in other people’s business and solve America’s problems.
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But I’m not naive. The demonization of leaders of other countries seldom has anything to do with concern for its citizens. Example of duplicity:
Under Ukraine’s democratically elected Yanukovich government:
Any attempt to control the euro-Maidan protesters is an unnacceptable”‘war against his own people”.
Under the unelected post-coup government:
Overt military action against the Eastern cities (eg. Donetsk) goes without strong condemnation. In the media the citizens are described as “Russian Separatists” when they are just ethnically Russian Ukrainians who want nothing to do with an unelected government that tried to, for example, remove Russian as an official language of Ukraine.
It’s always about managing perceptions as part of their geopolitcal game. I think Zbigniew Brzesinski was an advisor to the Obama administration and anyone who ever read even excerpts from his 1997 book “The Grand Chessboard” should have few illusions about what is really driving policy.
“Geopolitical pivots are the states whose importance is derived not from their power and motivation but rather from their sensitive location and from the consequences of their potentially vulnerable condition for the behavior of geostrategic players. Most often, geopolitical pivots are determined by their geography, which in some cases gives them a special role either in defining access to important areas or in denying resources to a significant player. In some cases, a geopolitical pivot may act as a defensive shield for a vital state or even a region. Sometimes, the very existence of a geopolitical pivot can be said to have very significant political and cultural consequences for a more active neighboring geostrategic player. The identification of the post-Cold War key Eurasian geopolitical pivots, and protecting them, is thus also a crucial aspect of America’s global geostrategy.”
“Ukraine, a new and important space on the Eurasion chessboard, is a geopolitical pivot because its very existence as an independent country helps to transform Russia. Without Ukraine, Russia ceases to be a Eurasian empire. Russia without Ukraine can still strive for imperial status, but it would then become a predominantly Asian imperial state, more likely to be drawn into debilitating conflicts with aroused Central Asians, who would then be resentful of the loss of their recent independence and would be supported by their fellow Islamic states to the South.”
Anyway, no derailing.
*runs*
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@ Origin
Ditto. My comments were taken and used in just that way too, although that WAS NOT what I said, either.
The thing about parallels is that one size does not fit all, but the basic framework shares commonalities.
***
Gaza resembles apartheid South Africa AND Algeria under French rule.
Seeing the events in Gaza reminded me — for a moment — of the massacre of Setif, in Algeria, when the French military murdered 45,000 Algerians.
That Massacre served to radicalize Algerians. What sprang out from it, was the Algerian’s own anti-colonial organisation, the FLN, the National Liberation Front. In time, this came to be Algeria’s self-made killing machine.
But Algeria and Israel are not the same.
Gaza also resembles apartheid South Africa, too, but South African Jews were part of the struggle. The situation between South Africa and Israel, in general, have similiarities, but again — they are not the same.
In all 3 situations, Israel, Algeria, Apartheid South Africa — the settlers were trying to protect and preserve their discriminatory practices, and outside governments were trying to stop them.
Isn’t that what settler-societies do — all of them? That was Raphel Lemkin’s (the Polish-Jewish lawyer who coined the word “genocide”) belief about the way societies operate.
In the same vein, what were the reasons for the American Revolution?
The white settlers didn’t want to be told how to deal with the indigenous peoples, or told what lands they could and could not take from them, or how to treat them.
After a time, what happens?
The settler becomes more and more militarized, and the colonized become more and radicalized: at some point, a peaceful solution is no longer possible, usually at the stage where the downtrodden cannot push for reform openly, the point where they are broken by a massive onslaught of violence, and then go underground in numbers and must use violence to be “heard”.
I suppose the settler outlook is the colonial outlook.
(Of course Israel isn’t actually a colonial nation, it just BEHAVES like one, but might as well be one.)
It doesn’t help that Israel has powerful, rich allies.
In some ways having allies like that reminds me of the justification for involvement in Vietnam’s war, when a govt again feels obligated to defend an unstable regime.
http://www.ushmm.org/confront-genocide/speakers-and-events/all-speakers-and-events/raphael-lemkins-history-of-genocide-and-colonialism
A discussion of the Israeli parallel with Algeria:
http://mondoweiss.net/2014/05/algeria-conversation-james.html
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@ Linda, a few thoughts to share.
…which didn’t stop him suckling on the teats of non-Maroons, the rebellious and seditious spirits that he based his methods and slogans on 🙂
And of course, filling in background from different sources doesn’t detract from the achievement of black people. Note: I realise you are NOT saying that, and I am not saying YOU are saying this.
Anyone who would interpret it that way is motivated by fear that there is not enough space for all kinds of information to grow understanding of a subject… as if learning more will diminish what they hold dear.
By the same token, I might’ve argued that Maroon or not, black Jamaicans are born rebells/revolutionaries because many are the descendants of Coromantee Africans, renowned for their strong-minded, warrior ways.
But I would NOT be saying that because I didn’t know who or what Maroons were, or didn’t care about their contributions or achievements.
That would be both stupid and mean.
***
Imo, it should be celebrated, not silenced, that the black and Irish civil rights movements actually EXCHANGED tactics and shared goals and methods.
There were close links between Frederick Douglass and Daniel O’Connell, and between Marcus Garvey and Eamon de Valera. It is what it is.
Wasn’t the The Montgomery bus boycott named after the greedy Irish landowner? And, didn’t Angela Daviis and Bernadette Devlin (McAliskey) support each other whilst each was in prison..?
The facts go (from Brian Dooley’s* research on these ties), that when Bernadette Devlin “later received the keys to the city of New York for her work in Ireland, she gives them to the Black Panther Party, ” in thanks and solidarity.
So, both sides influenced, shaped, and supported the other.
No one way streets at all — isn’t that constructive to know?
***
Another thing:
Abagond, Jefe and other commenters have written at length about what is excluded from education systems.
That same directive that excludes info like this, might also have us believe that “oppression and discrimination along lines of skin pigmentation or race is the natural, inherent, and historical condition” of human interaction, too.
Marcus Garvey was open, honest and generous about being inspired by the Irish. It’s not information that is hushed in Ireland!
Above I said that if influences and inspirations are never remembered or spoken of, they become silent, and whole trajectories are lost.
Imagine if the young Black Panthers never knew who Marcus Garvey was, because he was not an American…
Or, if the Northern Irish copied the Black Panthers, or paid tribute to them without the slightest inkling that their own Irish forbears had inspired black nationalism in turn. You mention “the full circle”, isn’t that part of it?
*Brian Dooley, author “Black and Green: The Fight for Civil Rights in Northern Ireland & Black America” about the historic links between the civil rights movements in Northern Ireland and the US.
(Btw: Brian Dooley is also head of Human Rights First, a Washington-based “organization focused on protecting the rights of refugees, supporting human rights defenders around the world, and pressing for the U.S. government’s full participation in the international human rights system. In recent years, the organization also has turned its attention to the erosion of human rights in the U.S. in the post-9/11 period; to the rise in anti-Semitic, racist and anti-Muslim hate crimes and other forms of discrimination in Europe; and to war crimes and crimes against humanity in places like Darfur.
The work of Human Rights First is based on the principle that core human rights protections apply universally, and thus extend to everyone by virtue of their humanity…
Its slogan is “American ideals, universal value”.”)
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@Bulanik
“After a time, what happens?
The settler becomes more and more militarized, and the colonized become more and radicalized: at some point, a peaceful solution is no longer possible, usually at the stage where the downtrodden cannot push for reform openly, the point where they are broken by a massive onslaught of violence, and then go underground in numbers and must use violence to be “heard”. ”
I think this paragraph sums up the processes at work perfectly. Therefore I understand the function of Hamas within the situation that has been created. Nothing exists without a context. What legitimate (or self-legitimized) authority calls terrorism is the asymmetric response of the powerless to the actions of the powerful. On the one hand you have a well-financed, nuclear-armed state with one of largest militaries relative to its population which is also operating within the Euro-American power structure and at the other hand you have an occupied people with few resources and little control over the institutions which dominate their lives. This is exactly the breeding ground for so-called radical or terrorist organizations. But then if you are going to judge a terrorist organization by the number of civilian deaths it produces, Israel has far more ability to cause Palestinian civilian deaths. The state of Israel has the power to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians if it desires and if the world allows it.
So I don’t think we can talk about what is fair in this situation without factoring in the power imbalance. If there is to be peaceful co-existence then the side with the power has to make concessions because that is the side with the ability to take whatever it wants. The other side has nothing with which to bargain because they cannot hold on to anything in order to exchange it for something. Like it or not, Hamas creates a kind of incentive for negotiation by their ability to harass Israel with rather ineffective but terrifying rockets. But there is a motto which has also entered the American psyche through the experience of 9/11: “We will not negotiate with terrorists”. Yet this is done whenever our interest is in saving lives (eg. a situation in which a bank robber has held customers hostage). This motto actually gives the side with the power even more power since they can now use the experience of terrorism as an excuse to indiscriminately blow apart men, women and children.
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Origin, you have your Cuba in Africa thing all wrong….its funny to me when people start implying Cuba was in Africa for noble reasons…its funny when people cant see they were Soviet Union sponsered , and looking as much for minerals and recources as much as anyone else…
The thing about the the cold war , Mandela and Cuba and the USA, for sure, the USA supporting apartheid is one of those dirty things Americans can be ashamed of…but it was right to fight communism, and Mandelas fight against aparthieid was incredibly noble, but , any thought communism was the right thing in Africa was wrong…great people can be wrong …communism really didnt play out in the long run in most countries in Africa did it?
With the Soviet Union crumbling under its ideological weight, in retrospect, notions of some great communist marxist world dominance fell miserably to the ground
Your notions of Cuba health care ought to expand, Ive brought in horrible pictures of patients in Cuba in squalor and horrible conditions…mostly to black Cubans…racism is alive in communist Cuba
everyone was dirty in the cold war , including the smaller conflicting parties in the countries that invited the super powers to come in and give them aid
the usa left mandela no choice in South Africa, I dont blame him for getting Cubas help…the usa supporting apartheid is shameful and dirty
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It is well known fact that Israel was involved in creating Hamas in order to destabilise the Fatah, Arafats organisation. That was the idea.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/how-israel-helped-create-hamas/
As for Hamas attacking Israel: they shot roughly 1500 rockets into Israel killing one civilian. Now any one, and I do mean any one, who has been in military, knows that if you shoot 1500 rockets into such a small land area it is almost impossible not to hit anything. That is if that is the idea.
But like I said in another thread, the whole point is the off shore Gaza gas field. Both Hamas and Israel do not want it to be used by the Palestinian authority and USA does not want the russians get involved in that either.
There fore it is ok for USA to have Israel to bomb UN schools, despite the fact that in one case the UN officials at one school contacted Israel military 17 times to make it sure that they know that this school is filled with refugees and civilians. The israelis bombed that school an hour an a half later.
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Recommended: an interview with Rula Jebreal in October:
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CCONkY8dtU)
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