Welcome to White History Month!
Why White History Month? I used to say there was no need for White History Month in America because it is the month that never ends: American history is taught year-round from a White American point of view and makes White people the heroes, the good guys. But, as we know from the Texas school board and James Loewen, it is not a true history that is being taught but rather Caucasian Mythology (white supremacist propaganda).
Help me pick the topics! Below are some posts I am thinking of doing on White American History (in addition to some left over from Black History Month, like Henrietta Lacks). There is no way I can do them all, so pick the ones you are most interested in. Pick as many as you like. It will help me to decide which ones to do. You can also leave suggestions in the comments below.
Thank you!
See also:
Did you do “Willie Lynch” already? Though you might consider that more as one for black history month, or maybe one for black & white history month…
LikeLike
It will probably be brutal for some of the white readers/commenters but a post on the Rosewood massacre in Florida, would be informative.
LikeLike
The southern bells romanticizing the south during slavery would be good.
LikeLike
Yes to Lillian Smith! Killers of the Dream is the ultimate ally-support book. How about Peter Norman?
LikeLike
Never heard of Lillian Smith but the little that i read about her, she would be an interesting post.
LikeLike
Please do not do Willie lynch as suggested by someone up top. The Willlie Lynch speech was written by Dr Kwabena Faheem Ashanti, for those of u that are late to the party he talks about it here http://www.blogtalkradio.com/thekeys107/2013/03/06/respect-for-life-featuring-brother-leroy-91.
I think Black Wall Street is a must. And illegal sterilization of black women is a must. And John Brown white abolitionist. I think Fox News is irrelevant cause all mainstream news do the same thing just in different ways.
LikeLike
Medical Apartheid is definitely needs a post.
LikeLike
@Craig, of course, that the letter is a fake is both Obvious and public knowledge, but that does not change that that letter is a very interesting subject.
LikeLike
I agree with Mary Burrell: Rosewood please. Also Lillian Smith all the medical topics, including black men infected with syphillis without their consent, in order to study the illness.
I also like the topics retracing how racism evolved though history (Being 58, I can testify a lot of things have changed for the better, but there are waves of things going backwards. Racism was not always as aggressive in the past either. I wonder if the evolution of aggressive racism can be studied, so as to be prevented??
I would also like the topics about Native Americans. I do not live in the USA, and I am not from the USA, but I wonder what would happen if Native Americans, Hispanics and Blacks united to sort out racism in the USA.
@Mary Burrell. You wrote southern bells…as in dumb bells, lol!! Anyway, that too would be interesting.
This is my first post in 2014, I think, so I hope 2014 has treated all of you kindly and will continue to do so, in spite of the freak weather.
However, I am very preoccupied about the Ukraine. Remember 1936…a ludicrous dictator organised Olympics…and then moved on to invade countries he claimed were populated by his countrymen/women. History repeating itself not just for racism. How does it feel from where you all are?
LikeLike
Abagond,
Based just on your proposed topics, your “White History Month” appears to be less a discussion of overall white European American history and more a discussion of the various methods Europeans and their American descendants have used to advance and maintain their dominance within the territorial borders they have been able to control in north America and the world. This dominance has often been at the expense and sometimes with the collaboration of subject and conquered peoples. No, it has not been fair, but what has that got to do with anything.
Everything people do is natural. We cannot be other than what we are. We cannot be more or less than natural. Therefore everything we do has a purpose, a cause. What is the cause of racism? Could it be fear and distrust of the “other” results in racist actions and thoughts? If fear and distrust of the “other” is natural, what purpose does it serve? Fear is a defensive response. We know we want our children to be afraid of strangers. And the most obvious strangers are people that don’t look like “us” and therefore, who we know are more concerned about the wellbeing of their own families than ours. So from the very beginning, nature and our family builds in a basic distrust and sometimes fear of the “other”. Because you don’t fear normal people, the “other” is abnormal. They can be treated differently. In fact, you want to keep an eye on “others”. They aren’t like you, they won’t protect you because they aren’t one of “us”, because they are out for themselves, just like we are. We know they aren’t one of us, because we can see it with our own eyes. They don’t look like anyone who is related to us. They aren’t a member of our tribe.
Although individuals are racist, it is supported by society (our tribe – ethnic/family group) and our instincts. That is clear because as you’ve stated, all whites are racist and so are all blacks and all Asians etc. And within ethnic groups people are racist, Japanese are racist towards Chinese, Germans are racist to Jews, etc, etc, etc. No one trusts anyone or thinks the “other” has his or her best interests at heart. And if it comes down to what is best for my family, it’s wellbeing always takes precedence over the “others”. No question about it. For example, I would allow hundreds to die, maybe more before I would allow my child to die of hunger.
Bands of Chimpanzees, humans closest living genetic relatives violently kill individuals from neighboring groups in order to expand their own territory although they are chimpanzees just the same. It is normal behavior for them to predate on members of other tribes, and has been well documented.
In the 1400’s farming technology had resulted in a boom in European population. Forests were felled and almost everywhere Kingdoms and farms had been established. There was no more cheap land to expand to, no weak tribes to conquer, to plunder for easy gain. No more room. Warfare between European tribes was very expensive and they all had guns, people and steel. So the gain to be had, for example by the Germans attacking the French , compared to the cost, was very limited. The Portuguese and later other European tribes had developed advanced sailing technology and spurred on by the Turkish conquest of Constantinople and subsequent loss of an overland trade route to Asia, Europeans began to explore the coasts of Africa, India and China by ship. They encountered people less able to resist conquest than their neighbors in Europe. And they established trade with these peoples, but as all peoples have done throughout history and on every continent, when it was cheaper, or when convenient, they took what they could not get through barter. Or in the case of the late 19th century rush for Africa, they took before they other guy beat them to it.
Like the chimpanzee, when human tribes encounter each other and need more room or resources for our family’s survival, or need to eliminate rivals, we attack. And so the Europeans took land from the Indians, and gold from the Aztec and as they needed labor for their new farms and mines and as predating on members of their own tribe was taboo and paying them to work was too expensive, they took Africans labor.
Slavery is over, but the fear and “othering” that made slavery okay are still here. In fact, those conditions exist everywhere where tribes meet.
Although this is my opinion, I believe it is supported by scholarship.
LikeLike
Forgive me, but I put check marks on all the topics. LOL 🙂
But, in my opinion, since Hollywood is cranking out yet another White Jesus movie, I think that should definitely be a topic.
LikeLike
@brothawolf: I was not aware of the latest white Jesus, part of me agrees with you, part of me is very very tired of the white Jesus.
How is the graphic novel coming on?
LikeLike
@biggiefriez
I do not actually think that individuals are racists until they have been influenced. Kids are not racists until they have been told to be, quite the contrary, they are interested in others, no matter how different.
I think racism is based on a group which sees individuals as being part of a group, and then decides friend or foe, based on their own feelings about themselves (the more self-confident, the least racist…racism is based on fear).
My father, who grew up in France before WW2, was heavily influenced by the rhetorics of the invading Nazis, but he can’t see it. He will say things I find racist and appalling, without reflecting and especially, he will say incredible things about the Jews. When we, his children, make him aware of the implications of his words, he is completely puzzled that we should be appalled, as if these opinions were undisputable and generally, scientifically acknowledged truths. Sometimes I completely despair about him!…but judged on the facts of his life as an individual: he has married, remained married to this day and had 5 children with a woman from another ethnicity, his great great grandmother was probably Vietnamese or Cambodian- and he has several Jewish friends he thinks the world of…He worked all his life as a GP in a very poor suburb and has given the best of compassion and skills to all no matter their race, and my family’s favourite dish is couscous (northern African). My mother would not have been able to remain married to him if he had not in reality been quite the opposite of some of the things he says, because she is very militant!!!!
I think there are a lot of guys like my dad. It is sad, but it also gives me hope.
LikeLike
Unless it’s something positive it should be in the broken record department. Don’t act like this month would be any different otherwise.
LikeLike
Maybe it should be reverse. Just like white hollywood only designates one month to point out positive blacks. Reciprocate that.
LikeLike
yeah why is rosewood and not bws, okc on there
LikeLike
I where black wall street in Tulsa, Oklahoma is not listed.
LikeLike
@ George Ryder @ biggiefriez @ dave
If you do not like my topics, then suggest better ones.
LikeLike
@ George Ryder
What guilt-free topics would you suggest?
LikeLike
@ George Ryder
A lot of history boils down to oppression..all these conquests. History being written by the victors, these conquests often end up sounding like great improvements…they were based on death all the same and demonisation of the enemy is universal and quite colour blind.
LikeLike
@George
Im sorry, but how exactly does black history month make whites feel guilty?
LikeLike
George Ryder,
The way BHM is celebrated, mostly from what I’ve observed in my lifetime, is a month all about “black firsts” and black achievements. At least that’s the way I see it being celebrated, especially in the media. Although there are acknowledgements of slavery, Jim Crow and the Civil Rights Movements, it celebrates certain black people’s feats and accomplishments.
I doubt it’s the same for everyone.
LikeLike
@Abagond,
I won’t propose another topic, but rather another perspective. A more humanist approach to your investigation of racism might yield more insight than the fields you’ve already plowed so many times. You’ve spoken about not having a kumbaya view of American race relations and white intentions. I propose that you stop having a kumbaya view of the human race and assume that everyone, everywhere has a single interest, and it is self-interest and the success of their children and family. And that they are ruthless in pursuit of it. And that white treatment of blacks since Europeans first saw Africa is fully within the bounds of typical human behavior throughout history.
Assume for instance that if America’s black population was dropped into China or India, that blacks would not be treated to an example of the brotherhood of man. In fact assume that whites too would be less than welcome as would Asians that were not Chinese, such as Koreans or Philippino’s. For the majority tribe, minority tribes are either assets or threats. And most often, as history and current events show, they are threats.
You often write as if white America has been “bad” or “evil”. But it cannot be bad or evil because human societies exist to serve one purpose only and that is to perpetuate the continuation of the tribe. A society can only be “bad” if it fails to perform this task. Can a wolfpack be bad? Can a band of Apes be bad? Can a tribe of humans be bad? And there is only one way an individual can be bad and that is to violate the mores and of his or her tribe. And that person is bad because they have risked being kicked out of the tribe and what moron would do that? A human cannot survive alone for long.
Yes, the African experience in America is unique, but black suffering is not and blacks being treated as second class citizens is not. Show me a state, an empire a nation on this earth where there are or were ethnic minorities and I’ll show you people being “othered”, people being slaughtered for not looking, believing or acting like the dominant group. in fact it is typical. If you told me there were a tribe of people living in Vietnam that were not Vietnamese I would assume they lived as second class citizens if not worse.
And it is not unnatural or abnormal, because we cannot be other than what nature has made us. Certainly as individuals we can be cruel and sadistic, but society operates as a hive mind and it is amoral. Humans are the same as they were 10,000 years ago, 100,000 years ago. We have not changed. We are not smarter than the Egyptians, we are not more moral. All that has changed is our understanding and control of the natural world and the need because of the fragility of modern technological civilization, to cooperate.
In my opinion, an honest discussion of American race relations would acknowledge that we are not a melting pot, but rather a group of tribes, each pursuing its own self-interest and that we cooperate only because we believe it is necessary for the perpetuation of the empire, which we believe is best for us all.
LikeLike
@Biggiefries
The problem is; your normalizing our societies or races evil. You work on the assumption that just because other groups have been evil or have similar traits they have behaved exactly the same or to the same extremes.
For instance; most of the native tribes in the US were pretty peaceful and open to white people. Its one of the things Colombus himself said would make them good slaves was their peacefulness.
It was remarked on not too infrequently by various preacher sorts about how the natives lived far closer to the christian code and ideals despite not being christian!
Society isn’t much of a hive mind really; closest we actually get to that is now.
But a society certainly can be cruel and sadistic if the people driving it are.
LikeLike
biggiefriez said
“You often write as if white America has been “bad” or “evil”. But it cannot be bad or evil because human societies exist to serve one purpose only and that is to perpetuate the continuation of the tribe.”
It is bad and evil and suggesting that it is just a natural part of mankind deflects away from the inhumanity of racism. I’m a humanist like you but I believe that evil needs to be recognized in order for it to be ended.
The ruling tribe is the anthropocentric reflection of empire and by that the standard by which all things are judged. Most people can’t even grasp that reality and prefer to believe that we live in a post racist society, a color blind one where every person is afforded equal protection under the law. The reality couldn’t be farther from the truth.
I don’t believe in original sin. I do believe humanity can change. But humanity can only change if it recognizes those institutions that marginalize and coerce different groups within society.
Dr. King and others in the civil rights movement didn’t compromise values on the alter of political expediency because to do so would have been as you put it
“best for us all”.
This blog is a collection of personal testimonies from those living today as well as a look at history in the hopes that it doesn’t repeat itself.
Humanity needs to move forward or it will lead itself to extinction.
If a society is to have egalitarian rights for all, it needs to recognize how those rights are interpreted through the lenses of race and tribe. It is the denial that their is a problem within our justice system that has left us with POC being marginalized within all aspects of our society.
Human rights is the essence of civilization. Humans need to recognize evil and call it out for what it is. It is the respect for your neighbors rights and the mutually shared ethics of a community that allows us to coexist.
LikeLike
This is so much of a coincidence. I was just debating with a friend about white Jesus.
His mentality is of, “the race of Jesus doesn’t matter”, Despite acknowledging that Jesus most definitely didn’t have white skin or blue eyes or straight hair, being the region he was born and raised..
I argued that it does matter in the context of “truth” and “historical accuracy”
Jesus was all about truth, how can you preach the life of the most, perfect being, who ever lives, yet uphold the lie of this false image? Its more of the truth, needing to be told, than it being the color of his skin.
My salvation, doesn’t hinge on Jesus’s skin being white or black but truth is what i seek.
My friend kept on sticking to the same old song, so then i took skin color out of the equation and left it with, “Truth” The truth matters, not so much his skin color. He had nothing to say at that point and i told him as such, “When i take color out of my whole piece, you won’t have anything to argue.
I was right, he had pretty much nothing say at that point. lol
LikeLike
@George Ryder,
“I’m not speaking for Abagond of course, but many people on this blog would argue that this is white supremacy at work. It’s like a post traumatic stress of colonization or something. Europeans basically mind-fucked the whole world.”
Tribalism is not a new thing invented by white Europeans. Certainly in those places conquered by Europeans people were taught to humble themselves before their masters and vestiges of that mindset remains, but European colonial empires are a relatively recent phenomenon, tribalism and preference for ones family and kinship group are not. In fact one of the harshest criticisms of colonial empires is that they created arbitrary national boundaries without respect to tribal allegiance.
LikeLike
@sondis,
According to the Dead Sea Scrolls Jesus looked like a swarthy Jackie Mason.
LikeLike
@biggiefriez
OMG, this is such a wrong viewpoint. It assumes that blacks are foreign visitors or very very recent latecomers to America. But, they ARE the USA and have been part of its building and history since the beginning of the USA as we know it today. Using the “dropped into Asia” argument is akin to how Native Americans would view Europeans or Africans or Asians dropped into North America, not how Europeans should view Africans “dropped” into North America.
BTW, whites did “drop” into India, China and the Philippines, ruling it, or at least parts of it for centuries and settled in significant enough numbers to make an impact. How did that turn out?
A better case study might be one like Malaysia, where Europeans imported Chinese and Indians for “coolie” labour. In that case, Malays reseized political power, which would be like if a Native American tribe coalition reseized the power in the USA over Europeans and Africans.
LikeLike
The reason you feel guilty is because when confronted with this messed up false history you do not challenge it. You accept it! Or you simply acquiesce to it!
This is called white privilege. It can either make you feel good or bad. You decide…!
“…Guilt is the perpetuation of a lack of acceptance of self…” – ELIAS
LikeLike
Please!!! This really is dribble and utter nonsense. But it is based on an unnatural Darwinian belief system of “survival of the fittest” which like, white supremacy, has been purposely imposed and projected onto the native indigenous peoples of this planet. The FACT that even Western Science has proved Europeans (white skinned ones) only came into existence 10,000 years ago shows how uninformed your knowledge is.
To understand what “Natural” and “Natural Law” is which we all share have a listen to Mark Paisso’s lectures. You might learn something…
.(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1pkJaNbzLU&hd=1)
LikeLike
@ biggiefriez
As a Christian I believe in right and wrong, the oneness of mankind, that we are more than just talking animals. And, while I believe that the world is screwed up because of man’s fallen nature, I also believe that we can rise above it. And sometimes we do. Like when America freed its slaves. If we all had your inhumanist perspective, many of us would still be slaves. No thanks. It is a self-serving mindset for the powerful.
LikeLike
@ Mary
“Black Wall Street” would look kind of odd on the poll, so I left it out.
LikeLike
Elvis Presley.
It would be nice to see something positive about Whites from you for a change
LikeLike
I propose that you stop having a kumbaya view of the human race and assume that everyone, everywhere has a single interest, and it is self-interest and the success of their children and family. And that they are ruthless in pursuit of it. And that white treatment of blacks since Europeans first saw Africa is fully within the bounds of typical human behavior throughout history.
That is a load of bull, Biggiefriez
The pursuit for success does not justify inhuman acts of cruelty. The white European and American treatment of those of African descent is inexcusable. If anything, it is not human behavior. It is inhuman savagery at its worst, human savagery that has been excused by people like you and admired by sociopaths.
Yes, the African experience in America is unique, but black suffering is not and blacks being treated as second class citizens is not. Show me a state, an empire a nation on this earth where there are or were ethnic minorities and I’ll show you people being “othered”, people being slaughtered for not looking, believing or acting like the dominant group. in fact it is typical. If you told me there were a tribe of people living in Vietnam that were not Vietnamese I would assume they lived as second class citizens if not worse.
Have you ever had your ancestors forced to give up their names, culture and overall identity to fit that of white standards? Have you have your ancestors beaten to death just so they become docile just for the sake of their masters feeling they are “superior” due to skin color alone? Have your ancestors been treated lower than farm animals on a daily basis, again due to skin color alone? Have your ancestors been lynched if they show even one ounce of pride and dignity? No? Then may I kindly suggest that you stop typing.
LikeLike
“It would be nice to see something positive about Whites …”
************
@Bobby M
Are YOU from Mars or Pluto, or a distant galaxy?? {{{ SMH }}}
YOU MUST NOT: read daily NEWSPAPERS, view Hollywood productions, peruse MAGAZINES, visit MUSEUMS, travel to LIBRARIES, have gone to BOOKSTORES, watch TV SHOWS, gaze upon STATUES, study PUBLIC SCHOOLS history books, look at FOX NEWS, tune to AM/FM radio stations, attend a CHRISTIAN church, serve in the MILITARY/INDUSTRIAL or CORPORATE/PRISON complexes, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc…
Elvis????
WTH…?
Isn’t this whole planet ALREADY OVERWHELMED with WHITENESS to your satisfaction?
You would insist that this little speck – HERE – in cyberspace, also ooze with the supposed glories of a backward and evil system/culture gone mad??
Why are YOU (and dave) here?
Are you both from an organization modeled after THE BORG and wish to assimilate all of huemanity, without exception, to the ways of whiteness??
LikeLike
Lol!!! Matari…
LikeLike
For those of you who are old enough to remember, imagine the sound of a needle skidding off a record. That’s what comes to mind when I see how the white trolls descend on this or any other black blog or website and attempt their usual derailment. The topic is subjects for ‘white history month’, so I’m going to stick to that.
I’d like to see a post on the huge amount of racist memorabilia that still exixts, and racist products from the past. That alone is worth an entire book. Also I’d like to see a post on all the sacred Native American land that they stole and then brazenly built what they wanted on it.
LikeLike
@ Abagond
These three I voted for from your list would be my favourites (in no particular order!):
1. White Jesus
2. Rosewood massacre (Black town in Florida destroyed by Whites)
3. J. Marion Sims (experimented on Black slave women)
But I could also add another: Natural, Moral or even Creator Universal Laws for the amount of times it has come up or been implied in comments by predominantly white commentators in your blog over many years.
Its these commentators like: biggiefriez or Randy – for example – who would like to believe that Racism (white supremacy) and Darwinism (survival of the fittest) fall under this divine category of “Natural Laws”. !
LikeLike
George Ryder,
“I recognize and despise racism, but I’m not foolish enough to think my european cultural history boils down to Abagond’s bullet points. ”
Yes, your European cultural history made sure of that. Just like it makes sure not to acknowledge Abagond’s bullet points in anything more expansive than a bullet point.
LikeLike
George Ryder,
“I acknowledge the bullet points, but i’m not foolish enough to believe that’s all that makes up my cultural history.”
The only people trying to fool you about your European cultural history are Europeans.
Your European cultural history ensures that these events aren’t included at all let alone make it up.
LikeLike
I agree it would be good to discuss such events (can’t speak to a creator Yacob though!) in an historical and scientific context…This information is already out there on the internet but not widely appreciated yet.
LikeLike
@ George Ryder
I think you are mistaking Abagond’s point. his White History Month is somewhat hyperbolic. He is proposing an Abagond White History month in which all of the White history that doesn’t get talked about all year (outside do blogs like this etc) get addressed. It’s a kind of snark.
Abagond is not saying that all white history boils down to is racism alone. We are all familiar with Beethoven, John Keats, and Vermeer. You are taking this all too literally, and that is why you are misunderstanding and are in turn being misunderstood.
LikeLike
George Ryder,
Your comments show how well you misunderstand.
LikeLike
@Abagond,
“As a Christian I believe in right and wrong, the oneness of mankind, that we are more than just talking animals. And, while I believe that the world is screwed up because of man’s fallen nature, I also believe that we can rise above it. And sometimes we do. Like when America freed its slaves.”
Do you believe America freed it’s slaves because it was the “right” thing to do?
I’m not a Christian and Biblical morality doesn’t work for me. It doesn’t explain the world to me or the way mankind operates. It’s clear that you and I have a different idea of human society and even American society and the nature of man. I don’t, for instance believe we stand outside of nature and inhabit a higher morality. I believe our behavior and how we treat each other is entirely natural, because it cannot be other than that. I don’t believe there are forces at work that we cannot understand acting upon the earth and battling over our souls. And no, I’m not a social Darwinist more a follower of Aristotle, Existentialism and Evolutionary theory.
I don’t support racist practices and I believe we should try and get along, because that is best for me and my family and it makes me happy to help others (very important , because if it didn’t I wouldn’t). But as you’ve stated, the world is not color-blind or even close to being culture-blind and the idea that “we” (a self-selected group I guess)) are all going to rise up, hold hands and sing kumbaya if we all just get some education, in my opinion doesn’t hold up to scrutiny or the historic record.
We are not now morally superior to our ancestors. We have not found a new way, we have not invented better methods for getting along or identified a philosophy that will cause me to put the interest of you and your family before mine. A thing will do what it does, what it has always done. Did you know that the Global Slavery Index reported that 30 million people live in slavery today. Most of them in places where there are no white people. The path of human existence is not a straight line. Because there is no path or destination. There is no goal. No, we have not progressed, but we did invent the cotton gin.
I guess we have no basis for discussion, so I will not bother you further. I’ve posted on your blog the last few weeks because after reading your various posts, I found that although I disagreed with the perspective of many of them, I learned a lot about the subconscious nature of prejudice. For instance, I found that the most pernicious form of “othering” was the double-standard. Expecting “others” to behave better than “we” behave and then attacking them if they don’t.
At some point you will tire of writing about the badness of white people. If I wrote a blog every other day about the badness of black people, all of my friends would disown me, my wife would divorce me and I would probably wonder if something weren’t wrong with me.
If we must examine white history how about this as a topic:
Eli Whitney
LikeLike
I think you would find this be untrue. Unless of course you wish to study histories in a vacuum solely from one perspective – European. To obtain a more holistic view of history requires an inclusion of the histories of other peoples taking place at the same time too – Africans, Asians etc…
Anything else is the insistence that such peoples contributed nothing to European history and culture. Which is were the idea of white supremacy and dominance unnaturally emerges…
But perhaps you would like to speak more about this untold history?
LikeLike
@Bobby M
“Elvis Presley.
It would be nice to see something positive about Whites from you for a change”—-For those whites that this stuff does not apply to they get to feel positive all the time. It is guilt-ridden, moronic, paranoid whites such as yourself that get their tighty whities in a bunch.
LikeLike
@George
“You know exactly how black history month makes white people feel guilty. at least progressive ones who have a conscience and aren’t pushing the white supremacist agenda.”—I’m sorry but I have no idea what you are talking about. What little of black history I received (and it sure as hell was not the whole month). Talked about two black inventors (if that), how us blacks were all slaves that were freed by our most gracious Lincoln and how, and waaa laaa…..Black history month.
Have you ever considered that it makes blacks feel a certain way too?
LikeLike
@biggiefriez
Geez, it seems you missed the core point of the topic of this post. I assume it is because you did not read the prior posts that discussed White History Month and you do not know why there is a Black History Month and an Asian American Heritage month.
“White History Month” on this blog focuses on topics about White American history which are not normally covered in US History textbooks, or which are only covered from a white perspective in school curriculums, which is similar to the purpose of Black History month posts or Asian-American Heritage month posts on this blog. Eli Whitney is a core figure covered in White American history textbooks that whites, blacks, Asians, Native Americans and Latinos in the USA all study about. So, it probably does not fit well on the list.
However, topics such as lynching by whites, mostly of blacks and Asians, are aspects of White American history which are not covered adequately or even completely omitted in most US history books. So, lynching by whites would probably fit more suitably in a list of topics for White American History month as it has been omitted from most of the readers’ formal education. If you read Loewen’s book, “Lies my Teacher Told me”, he discusses how Mississippi tried to remove all reference to lynching by whites in the state’s high school history books by banning them.
LikeLike
@ Bobby M
I have done tons of positive posts on White people, like John Brown, Steve Jobs and George Orwell. It goes unnoticed because that is “normal”, expected.
I agree with Matari, though: you got the world’s biggest media machine to give you “positive” feels about Whites. You do not need my little old speck in cyberspace for that.
LikeLike
@George
In that case them your qualms about white history month bringing guilt to white people like black history month is moot. In my case black history month was not fun for me either (though i am hard pressed to see how it brought guilt to whites). I hated being reminded that my ancestors were slaves, because my school refused to acknowledge some were actually free. I hated being told blacks only contributed very little when the truth of the matter is they contributed much more.
Bottom line is that you may have felt one way but I am sure it was no picnic for the black students either.
LikeLike
@ George
I used to say there was no need for White History Month in America because it is the month that never ends: American history is taught year-round from a White American point of view and makes White people the heroes, the good guys. But it is not a true history that is being taught but rather Caucasian Mythology (= white supremacist propaganda).
More:
LikeLike
You could educate me on how it was Europeans were able to find the time to develop this history/culture?. Also, where they obtained the original knowledge to begin to do this from? Given their limited arrival time on this planet…!
That is the REAL joke!. But by all means provide the education…
Also, lets remember what you originally said here:
LikeLike
“Everything that makes us who we are we stole from someone else, we have no identity apart from our oppression of POC around the world.”
*************
Well, those nefarious white sheets, pointy hats, burning crosses were an original white folk INVENTION, no?
As far as guilt goes, unless it motivates/inspires GREAT CHANGE, you might as well give it up as useless
LikeLike
“Elvis Presley.
“It would be nice to see something positive about Whites […]”
_ _ _
Oooh, yes!
A post on Elvis Presely is a great idea.
Hopefully the post would include his co-opting of the Blues and R & B musical genres, as well as his style of dance / movement, which he copied after seeing it performed by Blacks in clubs in Memphis, TN.
His possible sexual perversions along with his attraction for very young girls (including wife Priscilla, who was about 14 years old when he first met and fell in love with her) might also be of interest.
And let’s not forgot Elvis Presley’s addictions to multiple prescription narcotics–the usage of which probably played a role in his death at an early age from a massive heart attack . . . .
LikeLike
I think the topics at hand are quite fitting to white history. “White” in a racial sense isn’t some innocent descriptor, never has been and I know there are those who’d rather not think of the hows and whys of this classification. It’s supposed to be ugly. It’s supposed to be shameful. It’s supposed to be confronted. It’s supposed to be processed.
LikeLike
@Jefe,
So you are saying Abagonds list are historical events/subjects that should be added to high school history textbooks or curriculum? Did you need to go to college to learn about the items on the list?
I don’t know where you went to high school but most of the broader subjects on the list were covered at my high school (through the curriculum or textbooks) such as segregation, Lynching, the underground railroad (we learned about Harriet Tubman), slavery, the GI Bill, the Homestead Act, the KKK, the Trail of Tears, Reconstruction, black senators from the south, end of reconstruction, Jim Crow etc etc. White racism was covered during black history month and as part of our module on the Civil Rights movement.
I don’t believe my high school history text books discussed Elvis Presley, Boston bus boycotting, the Tea party, Fox News or National Geographic. I guess there wasn’t time for everything.
Seeing as how most of the white people I know are familiar with almost every item on the list and mostly from high school, it probably stands to reason that the broad items Abagaond has listed are already covered. And we can assume that everyone already knows that whites have treated black people as if they have no rights whites are obligated to honor. Even Stormfront would acknowledge that (not 100% certain).
What else are we going to learn from Abagond’s white history month?
Is it possible that his posts won’t be driven by an interest to educate but more an opportunity to exercise a bitter rant, in the most pleasant prose possible?
Is bitterness the cause of Abagond’s white history month? If not, I can find no other.
LikeLike
@ biggiefriez
What was covered when I went to American public high school:
– G.I. Bill – but not how it shut out many blacks
– Homestead Act – but not how it shut out many blacks
– Ku Klux Klan – kind of
– William Lloyd Garrison (abolitionist) – but watered down
not covered because it was after I went to high school:
– Detroit
– Fox News
– Islamophobia
– Tea Party
– White American racism: a brief history: the 2000s (so far)
not covered or just mentioned in passing:
– American slavery compared to other kinds
– Boston busing boycott
– Dead Indian Land
– Elvis Presley
– George Washington, a multiracial history
– Gerrit Smith (who Frederick Douglass wanted for president)
– J. Marion Sims (experimented on Black slave women)
– Lillian Smith (anti-racist White Southerner)
– lynching
– medical apartheid
– NYPD – New York police department
– National Geographic
– Rosewood massacre (Black town in Florida destroyed by Whites)
– school tracking (a form of internal segregation)
– Southern belles (the romanticization of the slave South)
– The souls of white folk (from W.E.B. Du Bois)
– United Brands and Central America
– White Americans (through a National Geographic gaze)
– White American racism: a brief history: the 1600s
– White American racism: a brief history: the 1700s
– White American racism: a brief history: the 1800s
– White American racism: a brief history: the 1900s
– White Jesus
– white suburbia
LikeLike
@ George
Making it about white guilt is making it about your feelings:
More:
LikeLike
@ George
I am not a huge fan of white guilt. From my point of view it is what led to racism and hundreds of years of slavery. If it was any good, there would have been no slavery or racism to begin with.
Further, I cannot write my posts constantly tiptoeing around white people’s feelings, like they are some abusive husband or evil stepmother. I write what I write and let the trolls fall where they may.
LikeLike
In my opinion knowledge gives white anti racists tools to work with. It’s not about power, guilt or bitterness. When I’m discussing racism with white people I’m not sharing white guilt but rather information based on facts and history.
White anti racists in my opinion are less then 3% of the population and have a minimum affect politically. Their are liberal allies but their politically expedient, so they talk the talk but won’t actually throw support behind things that would help POC as their are more pressing issues that are just as “important.”
It was the rise of the prison guard unions who back the Democratic party that built the prisons we have in America today that incarcerate POC. The Democrats aren’t going to do anything about the prison industrial complex because they need those campaign donations.
The same is true with the public school system and their inability to teach kids in poor areas because the teacher unions won’t allow any kind of meaningful reforms to happen.
I don’t feel I need to talk about Republicans because that should be self evident.
I chose Southern Bells, Lillian Smith and the “souls of white people”.
I’m interested in Kwmala expanding on “Natural, Moral or even Creator Universal Laws” and his critique of “natural law”. Maybe not on this thread but in open or as a separate thread.
My suppositions are both humanistic and natural law and I sense his views will challenge that. So I need to addressee that part of my world view.
LikeLike
WHY DO THESE PEOPLE COME HERE AND TELL YOU HOW TO TRY AND RUN YOUR GODDAMN EFFING BLOG?! I mean seriously, they try to use their white privilege to get you to post topics on what THEY find useful or interesting….when this blog isn’t FOR them. They are indeed not the targeted demographic. If they were REALLY that bothered by the “power you wield” on your blog, why don’t they start their own to combat your supposed ills instead of trying to control you. No one made them come here. Yet they want to whine about the posts like they don’t have the option of not coming. And then the condescending sanctimonious bull feces AND the subtle implications about you not using your powers for “good”. Who’s goddamn fu*cking good? Why is it that what THEY want to write about is right? Why are they here trying to dictate to us about what we speak on? WHY DO THEY STALK US THROUGH CYBERSPACE TO THE POINT WHERE WE CAN’T HAVE OUR OWN SPACES. This whole system is set up towards whiteness, yet try to create an enclave of safety and likemindedness and YOU are the racist. What kind of asinine backwards logic is that. Two question. If they think we are such lowly darkies, why are they here? And if they hate the blog so much, why do they stay? I’m over the “feelings” of these people. They worked for over 400 years to exclude us…and we beg them to take us in. They do so begrudgingly and when we leave, they start stalking us like obsessed boyfriends. You and your feelings and your dictates and your space crossing can go straight to hell.These people always feel the need to tell US how to combat racism, yet NEVER engaging in dialogue with the people who are the proponents of the racist system…the genetic recessive. I just don’t care about them anymore. I just don’t care. Why won’t they just leave us alone already? They spread through the world like insects and then cry and wail about the people of color there. They do the same thing on this blog. They invade the land and then try to control the original inhabitants. In all due respect….GTFOWBS. Thank you.
LikeLike
How about the white American history of at first banning Afro diasporic culture, then the next generation embraces it, abherates it and then makes money off of it.
This happened over an over , the banjo was an African instrument, and now its a mainstay of country picking…then the black American artists had to wear black face to practice their art like tap dancing…then , whites abhereted tap dancing with the white movie stars making the big money off of the art, like Astaire, Gene Kelly, Donald o Connor, all quite talented dancers by the way, but, they got the big money…
in the jazz era, a black American innovation, the first band that got a record deal was white and they said they invented jazz and blacks had nothing to do with it
then the white swing bands, who were basicly making arrangements out of Armstrong solos, got to make the big bread and recognition compared to Ellington, Count Basie, Chick Webb, meanwhile the churches were involved in getting jazz dancing banned
Bebop was invented by black Americans, and , they had the zoot suit wars, repressing the dress styles blacks and latinos dressed as part of the be bop dress code
rock and roll, invented by black Americans, was abherated by whites and they went on to make the big money , with a few token people like Hendrix , meanwhile real rock and roll was called “race records” and churches would ban that music
Hip hop goes through the same thing with Eminem getting the huge publicity and winning artist of the decade…something that makes me vomit
a cycle that keeps repeating itself over and over…actualy it happens all over the Americas where they brought slaves
black Afro diasporic culture is always 5 steps ahead of the others and then rubs up against white sensibilities (actualy the other cultures do the same thing , they just cant handle the original African concepts )and they try to ban it, only to have their next generation embrace it and copy it , abherate it and make money from it
LikeLike
George, add “speaking for Abagond as if they know what he wants and is in his head, even though they don’t agree with him and don’t have the same line of reasoning” to the list. And yes, for many of us, a safe enclave to hear our voices is important. Not that you respect our needs or wants. Which is why you’re here. Trying to dictate what Abagond needs to do. Instead of starting your own blog.
These people can never seem to answer why they stalk Abagond’s blog when they don’t like it and why they never seem to start their own blogs…choosing instead to invade ours.
And George, this response to you was my first and last as I wasn’t speaking to you originally. But for the people this blog is intended for. Your irrelevant opinions and lamentations fall on deaf and uncaring ears. Want to be heard? Start your own blog for your platform instead of piggybacking off of Abagond’s. Thank you and good day.
LikeLike
@ Pamela: Black memorabilia and would be excellent. You beat me to it.
LikeLike
I would love to learn more about the history of the richest 1% in the USA and how they got their wealth. How they pull themselves up by their bootstrap. *wink, wink* 😀
LikeLike
This is not an accurate depiction of white history because all or nearly all of the topics are centered around how white people oppress/have oppressed people of color. While in no way undermining the fact that those events did occur, this is a really narrow and incomplete view of “white history” stemming from an obvious bias by Abagond. You should have called this Racism caused/perpetuated by white people month; racism, while present and prevalent, DOES NOT define an entire race of people and their history. Essentially you are limiting the entire history of causasians to racism (as demonstrated by the KKK photo directly below the title), which is untrue and frankly racist in the same way that textbooks with eurocentricized history are racist.
If you are seriously trying to have topics about white history as a whole, and not just racism which you seemingly and offensively identify as white peope’s entire history and culture, then do a post about european history, or american history, or whatever; some topics about white people that don’t have to do with how white people oppress people of color. In fact, why don’t you just cover major famous events of history as frequently seen in history, and do them from a neutral perspective: some of them should of course be about racism, and for that you should tell it AS IT WAS/IS, with no bias; and also you should do other topics such as conflicts centered entirely on Europeans, etc, and present those as they are as well, with none of your apparent anti-white bias present.
LikeLike
@ Pamela & @ Mary Burrell
I agree: I’d like to see memorabilia from slavery days, sometimes objects give you an incredible notion of how things felt, really felt; and also more about American Indians.
Also agree: white media is full of positive stuff about the White, so it is not theoretically necessary here…However: we can often make a much more potent point if we argue fairly, because if we do not, the arguments and reasoning we offer can be dismissed only because their honesty can be called into question.
@Kwamla
Sorry Kwamla…Europe did not get populated 10000 years ago, but I am not sure, reading you, that this is what you meant. But for sure: If we keep in mind that Humans came out of Africa, there is nothing in our cultures that is not somehow black…
The trouble with religion: each religion wants to be the right one, and I can’t quite see what makes one better than the other, they all have their creation myths, miracles, revelations, worthy moral stances, justification etc etc but they also all have their fanatics, until recently I thought the Buddhists were the exception, but they too have been violent fanatics, in Sri lanka and Burma/Myanmar…Plus I am completely unable to dissociate christianity from the missionaries who bullied and tortured South America and the rest of the places the white colonised. So I have decided God and religion were not worth having, but the cause of it, this urge to explain the world and create moral is worth having, and I have a lot of time and respect for this human universal which has caused us to create religion and even more respect for non-proletysing religions.
LikeLike
@lifelearner
I would love to learn more about the history of the richest 1% in the USA and how they got their wealth. How they pull themselves up by their bootstrap. *wink, wink* 😀
—————————————————————————————-
I concur…
Why is it we rarely hear the meaty part about what they actually did? For example, did they get Govt. loans and tax incentives or have family resources to leverage? The rags to riches stories are never clear.
LikeLike
@ George,
“White guilt gives anti-racists power.”
I’m not sure I’ve ever met an anti-racist or a person that had white-guilt, at least that I knew about and I live in a major American city, read a lot, and am a news junky. Sounds like something people discuss in an ethnic studies class. Do you have white guilt? Are you an anti-racist ally? If so, what does that mean in practice?
I don’t doubt that there are white people that feel events in the past could be brutal, but I’ve never met anyone that would change the past if it meant sacrificing the current well-being, social dominance and prosperity of their own family, of their children, if it meant paying a price like increased taxes. I’ve met people that wish we could have done things differently, but that’s not the same as guilt. Guilt, according to Wikipedia “is an emotion that occurs when a person believes that they have violated a moral standard that they themselves believe in.” So we must assume that the overwhelming number of white Americans, and probably also Hispanic and Asian Americans don’t feel that they’ve done anything to Indians or Blacks in the past that they should feel guilty about, much less pay for.
But how about currently? Should Whites feel morally culpable for the unequal conditions Blacks live in today. That’s tougher. Wikipedia says “morality is the principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior.” Morality is a social construct sometimes cloaked in religious terms. So morality is a behavior that is either good or bad depending upon how your society judges individual actions. So in order to feel guilt you have to feel that you have violated the morals of the society in which you live through some past behavior.
I’ve never met a white person who I knew had done anything immoral to a black person or treated them in an immoral way. of course, white people’s morals are based on the mores of white tribal society which has historically allowed some leeway to white people in their treatment of blacks without breaking a moral standard that whites believe in. For instance, treating blacks as “others” is okay. It’s permissible in white society to be afraid to live in a black neighborhood without being immoral. It’s not immoral to send your kids to a private school rather than attend a predominately black school.
Of course one could argue that passively allowing blacks to be treated poorly is an immoral action. Do whites believe they have a moral obligation to aid blacks in need now. I think it is clear that many whites do think that they should help blacks, but not out of guilt, rather because many whites would rather inhabit a country where everyone was happy than not. A happy country is one where crime is low, poverty is rare and all of our children have a shot at a bright future. A happy country is a safe country. Many whites though, don’t feel they have an obligation to help blacks. Blacks aren’t one of “them”, they inhabit another tribe and there is only so much to go around. And at this point in time, white tribal morality does not consider passively allowing blacks to languish in poverty to be bad behavior and therefore, not immoral. Perhaps they will change in the future.
LikeLike
@Vajackster
“This is not an accurate depiction of white history because all or nearly all of the topics are centered around how white people oppress/have oppressed people of color. While in no way undermining the fact that those events did occur, this is a really narrow and incomplete view of “white history” stemming from an obvious bias by Abagond.”
Dude, its his blog. It’s his blog. It’s his blog. It’s his blog. It’s his blog. It’s his blog. It’s his blog. It’s his blog. It’s his blog. It’s his blog. It’s his blog. It’s his blog. It’s his blog. It’s his blog. It’s his blog. It’s his blog. It’s his blog. It’s his blog. It’s his blog. It’s his blog. It’s his blog. Do you understand? Do you?
He can post whatever he wants. You know that right? There is no democracy here. You are a sentient being, correct? He has no obligation other than intellectual to present a complete or balanced view of white history.
You should check out Stormfront and see how they roll.
LikeLike
@Mary B.:
Check out the link Abagond provides in his post about ‘The Pickanny Stereotype’ to the ‘Jim Crow Museum of Racist Memorabilia’ website and read about this great institution, located on the campus of Ferris State University in Michigan. It is absolutely amazing. One of the most gruesome things I learned about was the practice of using the skin of dead Africans or African-Americans as a ‘human leather’ covering for shoes and various other objects. He has an article posted that appeared in a Philadelphia newspaper in 1888 that spoke about this, even though it did not appear to be a widespread phenomenon. Even though it (probably) was not a common practice, it is still utterly ghoulish.The director of the museum also related the story of an antique dealer he met, an elderly black woman who had a collection of thousands of pieces of racist memorabilia that left him stunned and speechless.
LikeLike
@George,
“Do I have white guilt? Yes, most likely.
Am I an anti-racist ally? I’d like to think so, but probably not.”
Sorry if this sounds rude, but to be totally direct. Would you describe yourself as someone who feels they are morally culpable for the poor conditions of blacks today but, is not willing to do much about it other than voting for increased governmental social spending?
LikeLike
George Ryder,
Blogs like this one are not meant to cause whites to feel any guilt or shame. If that’s how they feel when racism is covered, that’s on them.
What’s missing is how a white supremacy society always make blacks feel shame and guilt just for being black throughout that last few hundreds years.
I, for one, avoid newspapers and watching the news because when crime is covered, I KNOW I will see suspects that will look like me. That’s not racist in itself per sae, but most of the time, whenever blacks are in the news, it’s mostly due to something negative as opposed to positive. Yet, whenever I do hear about a crime and the suspect is black, I feel collective guilt. I try not to let it happen, but it still happens. And it happens quite often. I makes no sense, but neither is being stereotyped on a daily basis.
That is drastically different from discussing racism, which is to discuss the actions, why they happen, the results that came from it and what can be done to remedy it. If there are people of color who are vexed by the actions of individual whites or a white racism system, that’s normal, especially considering how you have racist trolls pop up here explaining how they’re victims of crimes or bullying by blacks which excuses their hatred of all blacks. To us, that hatred is nothing new. It’s hurtful, but it’s far from new. Many of us know the history of white animosity against blacks that resulted in bloodshed. We don’t hide it because we can’t. Why? Because we ARE the proof.
I’m sorry, Mr. Ryder, but if you feel guilt, coming here on your own free telling us about it won’t go so far. You see, like Abagond said, this blog isn’t to comfort white people’s feelings.
LikeLike
“Am I an anti-racist ally? I’d like to think so, but probably not.
I don’t know if it’s even possible for a white person to be an anti-racist in practice, especially after carefully considering the content of Abagond’s blog.
Should Whites feel morally culpable for the unequal conditions Blacks live in today? Yes, to an extent. Our justice system for example and the laws we pass, we should feel morally responsible for that, and how we treat humans in general of course.”
and then you said this:
“… I’m starting to realize they don’t want our help. And when we attempt to help it often makes things worse. Just look at our housing projects, welfare programs, and how much we’ve “helped” Africa.”
**************
George Ryder,
You seem reasonably intelligent.
In the US civil suit court system, are the guilty parties the ones that decide how much and what type of damages/restitutions are given?
If white people are racists and responsible for racism, how, in YOUR way of thinking can black people STOP whiteness (racism/white supremacy) from bringing harm/oppression to their personal lives?
What will STOP white people from practicing white supremacy/RACISM?
LikeLike
@ Pamela: I read about that. It is ghoulish, and horrendous.
LikeLike
@Biggiefriez
For the sake of honesty, George has a point: Abagond is asking us to suggest topics. It is Abagond’s blog, but, he wants a dialogue (or he would write quietly for himself and not a blog). All we have to do is show respect and remember who is in the driving seat. I do not see that George is that far off the mark. Well, being here, he can see what happens when the shoe is on the other foot.
But also, this is a space for ranting because centuries of frustration have created this need, and ranting is not always fair, and that has to be accepted. I think I have met anti-racist whites, people going out of their way. As for your definition of guilt Biggiefriez…We cannot do anything about the past, but there is the present, slavery, pollution, economic exploitation. While the whites have more powers, no ethnic mix will be exonerated for what we are now doing in terms of pollution, violence and economic exploitation. I am fed up with people being sorry about what their ancestors did, I want action now instead (so that our grand children can be spared the burden of guilt??)
Anyway, back to our topic: please Rosewood as soon as possible, and I am now going to to get some info about it, cos I knew nothing at all about it, and I am quite aware that the info might be quite biased, so will be awaiting your posts for the truth.
LikeLike
@annef1: rent the film “Rosewood.”
LikeLike
Vajackster
Im confused on what part of this is inaccurate. If I am not mistaken most if not all of what abagond mentioned is indeed an accurate part of white history. It is just the white history that whites don’t want to talk about. We get enough “accurate” depicitions in the history books and I assume everyone has access to one.
LikeLike
Oh and I also vote for rosewood.
LikeLike
@ Vajackster
So, suggest some topics.
LikeLike
@ darqbeauty
Beautifully stated. Thank you. Their antics only make more certain that I am on the right path.
LikeLike
On so called” white guilt”…Why feel guilty if there is nothing to bear out the guilt? HMMMMMM? No one feels guilty if they have done nothing. People of color are not in the business of race shaming…whites did that to themselves albeit collectively. They have ALWAYS wrapped themselves in twisted mythologies and pass them down for generations as truth.Those mythologies have always cast indigenous peoples (read people of color) and sometimes even other whites as human capital to be wasted and exploited. No, not something to be proud of really. Which is why American history is soooooo white washed. The already complacent, fragile psyches of white children must be preserved right.? Learn the truth and get on with it. No one hates the haters. No one hates white people …we should all just HATE white supremacy
LikeLike
@ Abagond
Of course you are on the right path. No room for doubt.This blog has been a refreshing eyeopener for me and others. I am proud of this blog. Thanks
LikeLike
Whites are hell bent on power, and want to control everyone and everything. That’s why they love dogs, video games, and college sports. It’s a psychosis, maybe due to a lack of melanin.
LikeLike
@ George
I grew up in the south and as one of the thousands of black kids who bore the brunt of desegregation. We experienced this first hand in the 70’s as children. We know all too well what so called “white guilt ” truly is. It is intertwined with the white gaze, white mythology, and deep down suspected white inferiority. Why else rig the whole damn system in the favor of whites and have the attitude “This is a white world and everyone else is just living in it.” Dear Lord spare me. We people of color have always known what comprised white guilt. But somehow i am not sure white people really know when confronted.
LikeLike
@darqbeauty
BRILLIANT
LikeLike
Hi Abagond,
Can you add to your list:
“The Destruction of Black Wall Street in Greenwood, Oklahoma” ?
LikeLike
[…] Why White History Month? I used to say there was no need for White History Month in America because it is the month that never ends: American history is taught year-round from a White American point of view and makes White people the heroes, the good guys. But, as we know from the Texas school board and James Loewen, it is not a true history that is being taught but rather Caucasian Mythology (white supremacist propaganda).Help me pick the topics! Below are some posts I am thinking of doing on White American History (in addition to some left over from Black History Month, like Henrietta Lacks). There is no way I can do them all, so pick the ones you are most interested in. Pick as many as you like. It will help me to decide which ones to do. You can also leave suggestions in the comments below.Thank you! […]
LikeLike
@Kiwi,
Yeah, I was going to suggest that – how non-whites became white.
and “non-whites” could be European “ethnics” not previously classified as white as well as non-European non-whites (eg, people with origins between the Middle East and South Asia, or in Central Asia). For all we know, it is the model put forward, ie, soon we would ask how Biracial blacks, mestizos and hapas became white. Even people like Tiger Woods have managed more or less to become white.
LikeLike
@ Glen With Love: I already suggested Black Wall Street. I think just like Rosewood, it should be considered but this is Abagond’s blog so he can write what he wants, but i thought it should be considered as well.
LikeLike
@ Mary
Sure I can write about whatever i want, but the more people who express an interest in a particular topic, either here in the thread or in the poll, the more likely I will do it. It also gives me ideas that I did not think about or overlooked when I made the poll.
LikeLike
Follow up question for George Ryder
1. Guilty parties don’t get to decide what damages are paid.
A. I disagree! Guilty parties DO DECIDE *if* reparations (damages/restitution/unpaid wages) are to be paid, how it will be paid, how much will be paid and who’s eligible for awards. The guilty parties in this case are present day white Americans who benefit from racism/white supremacy, white skin privilege, etc, that are represented by Senators, Congressmen, District & Supreme Court Judges, mainstream media, Hollywood and others who are of the opinion that such payments aren’t practical or whatever.
2. Blacks must consolidate enough power to defend themselves and their interests, they must never trust the government to make things right, and don’t wait around for white people to play nice or help you at all.
B. How much power must black people amass before white people will begin to check themselves and their racism? How many nuclear weapons or other weapons of mass destruction must blacks acquire before having an equal power footing with the racist elements in America and elsewhere?
3. I don’t know how you can force whites to not be racist or if that will ever change. But I can say the best way for racism to not affect you is to consolidate as much political and economic power as possible. It doesn’t happen over night, but it can happen a lot faster than most would think.
C. How can black people consolidate much political and economical power faster than most would think?
Thank you.
LikeLike
@ George Ryder
I think this response from you to one of Matari’s questions just about sums up your warped thinking…
“… I don’t know how you can force whites to not be racist or if that will ever change. But I can say the best way for racism to not affect you is to consolidate as much political and economic power as possible…”
Reading between the lines of what you’ve written here says a number of things you obviously believe:
(1) White people are obviously naturally racist. So how can you force them to change?
(2) Yes!!! White people have consolidated as much political and economic power a they could from other peoples – Immorally or otherwise. Now its time for Black people to do the same!
George,
Have you considered: acting like a decent moral human being by simply treating other beings with the same dignity and respect you would give to yourself? (Assuming of course you do respect yourself as a person?)
The problem for you is not one of guilt but the false beliefs you have concerning what is morally right for white people and other peoples. When really it should be about what is morally right for ALL peoples.
LikeLike
It would be nice to see something positive about Whites from you for a change
How about Tamany Hall or the New York Race Riots?:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_draft_riots
LikeLike
What else are we going to learn from Abagond’s white history month?
Maybe he could do a post on Hitler’s love life?
Is it possible that his posts won’t be driven by an interest to educate but more an opportunity to exercise a bitter rant, in the most pleasant prose possible?
Possible but improbable as ‘bitter rants’ are more educational and entertaining! If nothing else it makes white folks cringe…now that is hilarious! You see, they are used to being portrayed as the good guy. Do you not find the loons more fascinating? I do.
LikeLike
@Herneith
Yea! I too vote for the loons!
LikeLike
How about doing a post on Fort Pillow? It shows the benign nature of the white man back then(Civil War)!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fort_Pillow#Massacre
LikeLike
Hahaha I saw what you did there, Herneith! Those are some good links.. As the old man from the junk yard on the movie “Stand By Me” would say; “looney, looney, looney!!!
LikeLike
Abagond,
I’m late to the party…. but I do have a suggestion for White history month:
Talk about white European “tribalism”…. and how it is taken more seriously and seen as “legitimate” by white people
but “tribalism” in Africa and Middle East is viewed as “silly” and not worth the time for the western media to understand and educate the public about. (Tribalism in Asia is Rarely spoken about)
Case in point: the situation in Ukraine.
When the Ukrainian opposition first started protesting, I discussed it with some of my friends from Poland, Slovak, and Czech… they all basically stated “that they don’t care about what happens to the Ukrainians because during WW2, the Ukrainians joined up with Germany and the Nazi’s” and are considered “traitors” by the central Europeans…
I was like “Wow, you all still remember and hold that against them” and to a man (and woman) they said“Yes we haven’t forgotten what the Ukrainians did during the war” (70 years ago).. their parents, grandparents, (society) made sure of it.
This sentiment reminded me of how in America, when black people express such sentiments out loud, they are told by white people to “Get Over It — forget about it and move on” and their feelings about their treatment by white western society are belittled.
As I listened to the news after Russia invaded Ukraine, the newscaster was discussing how the “past” is not forgotten in Europe and is considered important today…important enough that everyone is supposed to give a dam about the Ukraine and expect America to go to war with Russia over this– (when in reality, it’s all about the Crimea and Black Sea –pure BS politics and this region has been fought over for 100’s of years)
WHY is it OK for the white Europeans/Americans to start protests and wars based on their “past” but black people are told to “get over it” when they want to address issues that happened in the past that are still affecting their present and possible future … THIS double standard is something I just wanted to highlight…
this privilege that white people think they have to dictate what should be important to people of colour based on what is important to them.
LikeLike
Nice recommendation linda.
LikeLike
This is why I do not get into the race thing with whites; they can’t handle it.
Dude up there was talking about how it “spreads white guilt” and how it’s “common sense”. No, it spreads the truth. And whites hate the truth. That’s what it is. I have nothing against them at all. But call it like it is.
All the clues are there; you bring it up and some punk who thinks he’s waxin’ eloquent gets on with this “violence is natural” shite, citing monkeys (go figure) and the Darwinist/racist (by proxy) schema to explain it. No mention of, say, the Moors who conquered Europe through science and art, not metal blades. Or the Caribs, Tainos, or the “Americans” who greeted them with open arms. Or their beloved (lol) Egyptians. And we all know how them interactions turned out, and we know that it is the dominant system of today.
And these punks have the nerve to come here and tell you not to talk about it because it hurts their fragile effin’ feelings. Deep down, the truth shatters their worldview because it proves they are frauds. Yet they come here claiming to want to learn and start dialogue. They’re lying. They want to control the discussion.
George Ryder is trying to dictate morals in this thread, as if any white person is qualified to do so. You can’t even honestly have a conversation with the facts being what they are. Damn sure can’t handle the natural reaction when one sees how it affects the present. Yet you want to dictate “morals”? GTFO here.
Next they’ll be talking about Irish slavery.
LikeLike
“”American slavery compared to other kinds””
Hmm this you will have to be very through and careful about.. You sometimes seem to have an appeal to sugarcoating some parts of the history of slavery. But this would be very interesting if handled good )
LikeLike
Googled marion simms out of curiosity . My god just reading it….
LikeLike
@ S
I don’t have sarcastic bone in my body.
J. Marion Sims is a terrible role model for Whites and therefore not suitable for White History Month. Besides, White commenters want me to remain “positive” and not “bitter” about White people. I doubt I could do that if I wrote about someone like him. I would be better off writing completely snark-free, positive posts about, say, Miley Cyrus.
LikeLike
@ Linda
Only the past of white people matters. Did you learn nothing at school? 😉
LikeLike
@ Barchan
What parts of slavery do I sugarcoat?
LikeLike
Sorry, Abagond, my Caribbean education did not make white people the flippin “priority”… 🙂
but the white American media and by virtue of living in America, has done it’s utmost to correct that defect… since white history month is 365 days of the YEAR — trust, I was brought up to speed!
LikeLike
@ Abagond,
“White commenters want me to remain “positive” and not “bitter” about White people.”
I said “bitter” in my post. I should not have said that. I had my hard-nosed internet hat on and failed to see you as a person and not as an internet figment. It’s like when you are on the freeway and you see cars instead of people and start yelling in cursing at them if they frustrate you.
Please accept my apology.
LikeLike
@ Linda
Wow, that’s a relief. You had me worried.
LikeLike
@ biggiefriez
Apology accepted.
LikeLike
Abagond, you got jokes 🙂
After living and studying in Europe, I probably know “white European/western” history Wayy more than I ever wanted to know.
That’s why I push for you to sometimes focus more on Africa because everyone is still ignorant about the Continents past, present, and potential future…
Many countries in Africa are on their way Up but white western media likes to ignore it because this come-up is being sponsored by China.
LikeLike
“Average Bee @ Next they’ll be talking about Irish slavery.”
Linda says,
They DO want Abagond to do a post on Irish slavery…. and any other white slavery period!
Abagond’s white racist trolls are always trying to do the “comparison” game to say, “hey, white people suffered too”…. so maybe it’s time Abagond did the compare and contrast..
we can start with white Slavery in North African and discuss how the French and Spanish government (and Church) PAID to get their white citizens back and out of slavery…
and how Britian and France got together and decided to “invade” North Africa to stop white slavery, so that they wouldn’t have to pay anymore ransoms.
I don’t remember reading about Africans being allowed to pay “ransom” to get back their black citizens from slavery in the America’s….
so, all things weren’t equal when it came to “white” slavery versus “black” slavery… maybe it’s time to put that on the table.
LikeLike
“George Ryder
Seriously, if the pace keeps up i wouldn’t be surprised if a Chinese state springs up in Africa.”
Linda says,
and this is why it would be a great topic… the old Imperialism (Europe/America/Russia) versus the new Imperialism (Russia/China)
and talk about the “Angst” it seems to bring out in white people when they discuss the role China is playing on the world stage.
I agree that China is just another task master with a different face but the “value” that Africa receives is different — this is worthy of exploration.
LikeLike
“George Ryder
Hey, what do you think about the Mercator map being a topic?
I think that one could be very interesting because of the way northern countries are projected. Greenland looks as big as Africa on this map.”
Linda says,
Already done:
but you can always expand on it by bring in more pertinent information in that thread.
LikeLike
Kiwi, sorry old man 🙂
also, I second your topic of “Manifest Destiny” because this gets glossed over a lot
and it had a serious impact on the Caribbean/Central America as well as Pacific Islands.
In particular, William Walker… this dude right here was serious– he NEEDs a post.
http://latinamericanhistory.about.com/od/historyofcentralamerica/a/wwalker.htm
LikeLike
Kiwi have you spent time in China?
LikeLike
@ Kiwi
I would have thought that the Chinese leadership would also be teaching a renewed pride in all things Chinese with perhaps a mild antiwest undercurrent due to the very basic geopolitical competition that is and will be taking place between China and America. Is this leadership carrying out such a program with a still smitten with whites Chinese population? Or is it all together a quite different situation than I am outlining above?
LikeLike
I would have thought that the Chinese leadership would also be teaching a renewed pride in all things Chinese, in tandem with China’s evolving political economy …
LikeLike
*than the one I am outlining above.
——————
ohh, brother …
LikeLike
@Kiwi
I think of China’s takeover of Tibet as similar to the takeover of the western states from Mexico and the Native Americans, in line with their philosophy of Manifest Destiny. But I suppose that Hawaii was part of the philosophy as well.
AND, BTW
@Kiwi
@Linda
I THIRD this suggestion.
It is covered in school, but from a very one-sided perspective.
LikeLike
@Legion
That is tricky, after they spent decades vilifying “Old China” and many traditional Chinese values. It is very difficult to pinpoint what is Chinese anymore. People say that in order to find traditional China, you actually have to travel to overseas Chinese communities. But what is passing for “Chinese” culture in China now. M-m-m-h.
It seems that they tried to build nationalistic fervor by vilifying old enemies, like the Japanese and spreading that to their other neighbors, esp. those who seek alliance with the USA. They have also racialized it, appealing to blood ties (eg, that is what connects the PRC to Taiwan). But that also causes vilification of the non-Han people who refuse to assimilate. To me, it is a spineless sense of nationalism.
Sorry, I just realized this is getting VERY off topic on a post about White History month.
LikeLike
@Kiwi Once again, you were on point about everything today -and I second all the topics you’ve suggested to be covered, it’s almost like you read my mind or something! lol 😀
LikeLike
@ jefe
re: off topic?
Yeah, a little. I want to understand the ‘white love’ that Kiwi says is in China, though. Particularly when, intuitively, I think there might be some interesting counter forces operating at the same time. After he responds, I’ll probably drop the issue for now, and sooner if Abagond insists we drop it now.
LikeLike
@biggiefriez
“In fact one of the harshest criticisms of colonial empires is that they created arbitrary national boundaries without respect to tribal allegiance.”
By your chimpanzee and ‘tribalism’ metaphor, colonialism would be, generally speaking, excused, i didn’t see in that logic flow where you could reconcile capturing slaves and shipping them off to other tribes to work for free
LikeLike
wait for it, “back to balfour again!”
LikeLike
I suggest you do a post on this illustrious fellow!:
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXpwflzSF4M)
The mayor of Toronto! You can title it ‘White Privilege Indeed’!
LikeLike
@Legion,
Have you been to China? I find your questions interesting.
I spend 90% of my time now traveling around Greater China (which I define to include the PRC, Hong Kong, Taiwan and Macau). Perhaps I have spent the most time there compared to most of the readers on this blog. The rest of the time I spend in SE Asia. I have even been to Xinjiang (where Uighurs and Kazakhs live) and to Yunnan and to NE China (Liaoning) and Sanya in Hainan Island. When I drop off the grid for several days or a week, it is probably because I am in Mainland China where wordpress is BLOCKED, or I am some remote place with no wifi.
I wouldn’t put it the same way as Kiwi. I wouldn’t say that Chinese “love” white people. I think it is some interest and fascination in western culture and imagery, and they perceive them to have some higher prestige. They like western luxury brands. Chinese people with money want to have their kids get a western education. Having a white face on a company or a product makes it seem international and cosmopolitan and may be able to attract more customers. In the suburbs of some of the big cities, they have recreated subdivisions that look like European villages or American suburbs. And it take money to be more westernized, so some degree of westernization makes one appear wealthier.
Now, there is some behavior that people find to be very “Mainland Chinese” and even people in Hong Kong and Taiwan have trouble adjusting to it. But I wouldn’t call this behavior as something that is necessarily “traditional Chinese”. I don’t know. whatever.
It is funny, I was just in Qingdao (Shandong) last week, and I saw toddlers NOT wearing diapers (actually, I have seen this many times before, but it has been a while so it left an impression). Their pants have an open slit in the back. The mother just holds the baby by the head and feet and lets the baby leave droppings in the street just like people who walk their dogs. When they (Mainland Chinese visitors) do this in HK, people are aghast. Even people in HK clean up after their dogs.
I actually started to draft and collected online references for a post about “Ugly Chinese Tourist” which is starting to replace “Ugly American” in many places. Wait until all those 1.4 billion people all get passports. It will be a Brave New World.
LikeLike
@George Ryder
I am sure you can find pictures of that, just google it.
LikeLike
@v8driver,
Non-Balfour:
To Europeans prior to the 18th century it was completely permissible to take persons from other tribes as slaves. It did not violate their moral codes or induce guilt. Taking captured prisoners and selling them was not considered bad and in certain instances was better for the slave than the alternative. Europeans had a long history of using slave labor going back to at least Greek times.
As for colonialism, that’s another word for conquest and occupation and utilizing the captured territory and population for your societies benefit. Obviously Europeans thought nothing was wrong with it. The Roman empire was mostly a vast European colony. Europeans had been colonized themselves in both Spain and the Balkans. the Mongols conquered Russia and exacted tribute from them until the 15th century.
Balfour:
I assume when you say “Permissible” you mean morally acceptable behavior. Whether something is moral or not depends on who is doing the judging. Morality is according to accepted definitions, subjective and based on what is the norm within “your” culture, your society, which is basically your tribe. Wikipedia says “morality” refers to personal or cultural values, codes of conduct or social mores. It does not connote objective claims of right or wrong, but only refers to that which is considered right or wrong (by society).
So, was taking Africans as slaves “moral” in the 15th – 18th centuries in European society? Clearly it was. They saw nothing wrong with it. They had been taking slaves and buying a selling people since at least Greek times. the Turks routinely captured and took European slaves during this same period of time. The Moors in Spain traded for European slaves captured by the Germans in eastern Europe. That is where the term Slav is thought to originate.
And of course, the purpose of taking slaves is to use their labor for free. That wasn’t a European invention developed for African slavery.
Of course morals shifted and slavery became wrong, at least in Europe and the United States, otherwise we might still practice slavery.
I wonder what caused the moral shift? Why did societal mores change?
LikeLike
@Abagond
I don’t know if this would be a good one but I’ll post it anyways. How about a topic about “angry white men”? I’m sure whatever your next post will be, it’ll be informative as it has always been.
LikeLike
here’s one that’s not well known:
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq80-1.htm
Port Chicago Naval Magazine Explosion, 1944
(Vallejo, CA)
supposedly nuclear
LikeLike
I mentioned in the other thread about learning about the non-Anglo European societies and cultures that ruled North America before the Anglo-Americans drove them out.
LikeLike
@ Linda, you said:
As usual, I am even later to the party! 😀
Look, I agree with the main thrust of “double standard” argument as it refers to the belittlement of black people in history and in the Western media — but you seem to speak from an American context. Totally.
And that totalness excludes another truth and wipes out the deep and serious concern in Europe. This is a dangerous time for the continent and wider world.
I realise you grasp that — but it’s not like you seem to paint it at all.
Also, I don’t know about the Poles, Czechs or Slovaks you spoke with — but they kind of sound like they never heard of Western Betrayal.
Do they speak from inside Eastern Europe?
Because it was France and the UKs’ passivity and apathy — at a time Czechoslovakians and Poles were most vulnerable and under siege — that led to:
1. Czechoslovakia’s partition and occupation by the Nazis, and,
2. Poland’s invasion by the Nazis AND the Russians.
Didn’t the the Poles appeal frantically to the British for help, the half-hearted little-bit that came was much, much too late…?
Let’s not beat about the bush: The West SCREWED Central and Eastern Europe OVER 70 years ago.
And, frankly, these days THEY DO NOT BLAME UKRAINE FOR IT!
https://suite101.com/a/the-meaning-of-western-betrayal-a194192
Now look: it is the EU and the USA who are falling over themselves to bring bring ‘order’ to other countries. It’s like Ukraine is being treated as though it were a white “Third World” country. Because the “properly” white West looks down on poorish East European backwaters and Balkan countries, let’s not downplay that too much.
Sure, the Poles and Ukrainians had their own wars, committed all the atrocities ethnic cleansing against each other, tit for tat.
Yes, families WILL remember the narratives from 70 years ago of communities behing herded into churches and set on fire, the beheadings and blugeonings — BUT — the Ukraine and Poland share a border, a mutually intelligible language, and they BOTH know the aggression of Russia, like the Czechs and Slovaks.
Plus: who has put a stoppage to the worst violence so far?
Poland.
It was Polish Foreign Minister Radosław Sikorski who went to Kiev to negotiate the agreement. And when he said do this or “you’ll all be dead” — he knew what he was talking about.
The one minute video that captured that:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoKyqoiq5b4)
The Poles ALSO fought the Nazis, who ruled against them. Later, they against the Soviets who ruled against them, too, in the 1980s through Solidarity, the anti-communist opposition.
The Czech president, Milos Zeman, drew a parallel to Ukraine’s fate to his own country’s crushing of the Prague Spring in 1968.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10670931/Ukraine-crisis-World-stands-on-brink-of-conflict-warns-Polish-prime-minister.html
Czechs, Slovaks and Poles, CARE what is happening to Ukraine.
In fact, they care very much. They have been where Ukraine has been.
There’s no question there are divisions among these nations.
But, they also feel the need to fight against a greater and more present, evil.
LikeLike
@ Linda
How much do you (or your East European friends) trust the American media?
Does the mainstream media tell everyone who and what this junta that opposed the government is made up of? does the media tell everybody they are neo-Nazis?
And, don’t you think that the US acted to PROVOKE the situation and make it worse? Aren’t the US media in collusion with that — as usual — to make a froth, to make Russia the Enemy again, to re-create a new Cold War?
All to “justify” expenditure on deploying F15 Fighters and deploying warships with their guided missiles to the Black Sea.
They are itching to try out their toys and see a theatre of war develop!
Doesn’t this manipulation sound just slightly familiar?
LikeLike
To slant it as about tribalism is to obscure what is REALLY GOING ON.
LikeLike
Linda, do you think it’s some kind of *accident* that the Slovaks, Poles and Czechs you spoke with (who sound like they are based in the US) are apathetic towards the fate of Ukraine?
It was the West — the UK, the French, the Americans — who screwed their nations over. Yet, somehow … the Ukraine get the blame for it?
Really?
LikeLike
As usual an excellent history lesson Bulanik!
LikeLike
I believe we are asking the wrong question in pointing to tribalism and the telling of ethnic narratives.
That is a distraction. What the situation in Ukraine is really about is Western Expansion, fascism and the control of resources, and the wealth from owning that.
Isn’t it questionable — in the least — that John McCain would hold the stage with, and show support to a neo Nazi? Ukraine’s Svoboda party are not Middle of the Road kind of guys, they are racist extremists.
Their leader speaks like this:
he claims that it’s a “Moscow-Jewish mafia” that rules Ukraine and that “Germans, Kikes and other scum” want to “take away our Ukrainian state.”
More about the Svoboda Party: http://globaldiscussion.net/topic/4205-ukraines-svoboda-party-anything-but-moderate/
Not so moderate:
http://www.ibtimes.com/euromaidan-dark-shadows-far-right-ukraine-protests-1556654
LikeLike
@ Kwamla
Thanks for reading, but I hope I am not misunderstood because I do not agree and know otherwise.
I have a lot of time for Linda, enjoy her remarks, and understand her argument, seeing why it would be attractive from a “race” point of view.
But the facts and history do not stack up.
I am often misunderstood and ignored on this forum, not least by Abagond, but I’ve never and won’t start — to sing from the same hymn book if my instincts and mind tell me another truth.
The situation in Ukraine is too dangerous — with implications so alarming — for far more than just white people’s tribalism.
LikeLike
Bulanik
Why am I not surprised at American hands in it?
LikeLike
@Bulanik
misunderstood sometimes, but NOT ignored for sure 😛
Not always replying does not mean you were ignored. 🙂
LikeLike
it is interesting that the Russian media statements recently have been about US (read CIA) involvement; vis a vis fomenting the protests in Kiev in order to bring the Ukraine into NATO, no natural gas pipelines here, nothing to see folks, keep it moving.
I feel like we’re in a time warp going back to 1980 or something
LikeLike
“Bulanik,
Czechs, Slovaks and Poles, CARE what is happening to Ukraine.
In fact, they care very much. They have been where Ukraine has been.”
Linda says,
Bulanik, I think you read too much into what I wrote but I will address your statements.
First off, “No”, my Czech/Slovak/Polish friends don’t look at this from an American point of view… these people all lived in Communist Czechoslovakia and Poland, and are recent immigrants to US — so no, they haven’t become “Americanized” in their views
Even though the West indeed screwed over central Europe, don’t forget the Ukrainians fought with Hitler/Nazi’s against Russia and then they were part of the invading Russian army
so Yes, the Ukrainians made a lasting memory in the minds of the older Czechs and Slovaks because they played both sides of the fence (and mind you, it’s understood why they collaborated because it seems the Ukrainians would have done anything to escape Russia, hence siding with Germany) but that doesn’t erase their participation.
and Yes, we (my friends and I) are aware that during WW2 the Czechs/Slovaks made a Treaty in which the British and French reneged on and No, my European friends did not forget that either
but it’s not a matter of forgetting “who did what” during WW2 — my friends lived under the Soviet/ communist regime, so people have to be practical and they are aware that their governments have to choose which beast to lie in bed with, hence they look to the West and EU; and not towards Russia
My friends do sympathize with the Ukrainians because of the shared history of being invaded by Russia but it doesn’t erase the feelings of “betrayal” that some Czech and other central Europeans feel towards the Ukraine (to them, Ukrainians represented “Russia”, they speak the same language– any feelings of “brotherly” solidarity does not really exist)
the whole conversation I had with my friends came up because of the neo Nazi Nationalist/ fascists front that is a part of the opposition party — I learned about that from my friends — the US media was/is NOT reporting that bit of information– and let’s be fair, many of the people protesting on the streets were not part the Nationalist party, just regular people
(and I also do find it funny that American politicians are pushing to support a foreign political party made up of neo-Nazi’s.
–that is why I asked Abagond to do post of European tribalism because many people in America do Not understand the relationship that the European “tribes” have with each other but they want to the US government to get involved with every flippin conflict that occurs, especially if Russia is involved.)
and this is what my central European friends don’t like and are not in support of– the USA interfering in the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
The central/eastern European governments might be concerned but as far as my friends are feeling– it’s a big “Oh well, so what — nothing new here to see” — they are not worried about Russia
and don’t fear Russia going further “west” because to them, they don’t see how this would be in Russia’s best interest to keep going west (and I trust my friends views more than any media — they’ve had a much more closer “relationship” with the former Soviet Union than anyone else from west /western Europe — hence during our discussions, they also predicted that Russia would invade the Ukraine after the winter Olympics; whereas, the American media was “surprised”)
LikeLike
and No, Bulanik, it’s not the western media where I or my friends get our information on because none of us were surprised when Putin invaded (as the American government and media were)… we all joked that Putin was waiting for the winter Olympics to finish before he sends in the big guns (versus the little guns aka the Russian snipers that killed those protesters)
Anyone who knows the history between Russia and Ukraine should have known Putin wasn’t going to sit back and let them go and join the EU.
that’s why I am against the US interfering because the US media and public are not aware of who the players REALLY are…. the US government see’s this situation as a chess game with Russia — East versus West (as usual)–
this fear of Russian expansion is the bullhorn that the US uses to push for fortifying US military position in Europe — such as placing those satellites in Czech Republic and Poland.
The US politicians are going “on and on” about how America looks “weak” because Obama “killed the deal” with putting Satellites on the borders– and they say that the Czech’s were upset that the deal felt apart –
http://csis.org/blog/obama-throwing-eastern-europe-under-bus
well, according to my Czech friends, that’s not all together true.
They said that the average Czech people don’t WANT those Satellites– their government wanted it….the Czech Republic government did a research where the asked the Czech people how they felt about having these Satellites — the polls showed “no support” for those Satellites.
so if this issue had gone to vote amongst the Czech citizens, they would have voted “NO” against the satellite
the western media doesn’t report this and the Czech government plans to do what it wants regardless of how the public feels — just like the USA and most governments do anyway..
LikeLike
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-02-20/ukraine-situation-explained-one-map
“Sadly, everything you need to know about the crisis in Ukraine in one worrisome map which summarizes all the relevant “red lines.””
LikeLike
v8driver,
Exactly… if the Ukrainian government was not so corrupt and the money from the Pipelines had flowed into the economy as it should have, then none of us would be hearing about the Ukraine and their “desire” to join the EU and the west..
LikeLike
also, when I say “satellites” on the Czech and Polish border– I mean Radar defense system
The Czech people are more concerned that this will make them more of a “target” for Russia, that’s why they are against it….
“In July of 2008 an agreement with the United States to host the radar (in Czech Republic) was signed. The Senate ratified it, but the Chamber of Deputies did not secure sufficient votes. Left-wing opposition was very much against the plans to deploy the radar, and the former ruling coalition lacked unity.
The most difficult thing was to convince the Czech people of the benefits of a provocative object. Despite the massive propaganda in the media, despite the moralistic tone of the former president Vaclav Havel, at least two-thirds of the population stubbornly refused to host a questionable object in the protected forests near the village of Brdy. They were not convinced by the stories about the imperial encroachments of Russia, or the Iranian and North Korean missiles.
We cannot say that the Czech Republic and the Czechs favor Russia and think of the two countries as friends. However, the degree of Russophobia there, is much lower than in Poland, and we are no longer talking about pathological hostility of the Czechs towards the Russians. One cannot build political capital on the unconditional love of the United States and anti-Russian hysteria in today’s Czech Republic.
it is better to be on good terms with Russia. They could lose a market for their goods and tens of thousands of generous tourists, or obtain higher prices for Russian oil and gas. The cost is too high.
For the U.S., the refusal of the Czech Republic to place American objects on its territory is not likely to be a severe blow. Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, the Baltic countries, Albania, Georgia and many others are already waiting in line for the elements of the ABM to appear on their territory”
http://english.pravda.ru/world/europe/08-04-2011/117500-Czech_Republic-0/
These sentiments of the ordinary Czech people hardly got/gets mentioned by the US media … but you got John McKain and other republican politicians talking about how the Czech people feel “betrayed” by the US because Obama backed out
Going into western Europe is not within Russia’s best interest — Russia needs buyers for their gas, why would they sabotage their own Market by going further West into Europe than the Ukraine?
LikeLike
@ Linda. Your first post the subject is quite different from the subsequent 2 in reply — which is a good thing! lol.
First you say this:
And, after questioned that, you say this:
Please don’t tell me I read too much into ANYTHING, because I don’t.
You said what you said and I got it.
Don’t get me wrong: we’ve always respected each other’s PoV, and have never had a problem understanding each other. It’s a serious, world issue at hand, and there was simply more, much much more here at stake than a point about Europeans and their tribalism. (That said, I certainly believe that it might be good thing for Abagond to look at Europe and ethnicity here, too, because it’s quite an enlightening reflection. Both you, and I, have mentioned this over and over.)
I responded to what you said *on face value*, which doesn’t take away from the fact that your follow-up explains and expounds a perspective which is fairly different to what you said originally!
First they “don’t care” and then they “sympathize”.
!
It was one thing. Then another. Initially, the complexity of it was excluded.
What I said was that people had put certain REAL and historical differences aside to stop the current blood-letting, not that they didn’t know what those differences and betrayals were, or that the impact had been “erased”.
Anyone who read my comment will see that I did not say that.
And, what if I had said nothing?
This: it’d have stood that Slovaks or Czechs or Poles don’t care, and we wouldn’t have read the vital and important perspective you provided subsequently in your 2nd and 3rd comments above this one.
*
Plus, I am also not sure if I am convinced by what you say about “Americanization”.
In my experience, even though an immigrant in the US or England might believe they haven’t become Americanized or Anglicized — how is that avoidable, tell me? Truth be told, I don’t see how it’s possible to remain unaffected when you travel, work and settle in a new country.
I am an immigrant myself (perhaps you are too — idk), and I it’d be flat untrue of me to say my new country didn’t influence my outlook a little — or even a lot!
😀
Thinking on it, when my wn parents emigrated to USA, they endeavoured to Americanize themselves from the first minute, long before they pledged their Oath of Allegiance. That’s how immigrants behave.
Acculturation is a process that happens even when one doesn’t even try.
Honestly, I can think of no immigrant who can truly and genuinely, really say they were NOT influenced by the new nation of which they become a part, or ASPIRED to be part of… so that bit about not being in the least Americanized is questionable.
*
Before I forget, when you say:
. “let’s be fair, many of the people protesting on the streets were not part the Nationalist party, just regular people”
I never said the general protesters were.
Sure, I follow your meaning, Linda, but when I said that East Europeans “remember the narratives from 70 years ago”, that IS what I meant.
My argument was laid out bald and clear. The Czechs, Poles and Slovaks that I knew, or still know that live in England and Ireland are (mostly) people of 50 years of age and above, so they’ve ALSO lived under the Communist regime in their respective countries, through Solidarity. The oldest ones remember 1968, too. The younger ones know the earlier generation’s narratives.
It’s not like Poles and Slovaks who emigrate to England or Ireland aren’t educated people, or don’t know their own history or Ukraine’s hand in it.
They do: the ones that are in the US are certainly no more qualified or “with the programme” than ones in Europe about that. Sure, I realize you didn’t say that, but, the “don’t care” and “so what” talk is far less heard on this side of the Atlantic from what I gather.
LikeLike
Linda, contd:
The allusions you make to what went down in Europe’s history is familiar to huge numbers of people who both live and been educated about it in this side of the pond.
I suppose it’s closer to us over here.
Also, it stands to reason that as you live in the US, naturally enough, certain perspectives will be closer to you — as is certain news and perspectives will be closer to those living in Europe.
It may be a question of proximity, of what’s on your doorstep.
We see it on this blog all the time, don’t we?
**
And, nor is it about fears about Russia, either.
This isn’t about the notion that Russia is going more West. In fact, I am not sure why you mention this, because that is not the reason for concern.
People are not “worried” just because of what Russia has done.
Rather, it’s the potential for instability that is unwanted.
What it will be mean to energy supplies, not least.
Who and what will be owned by who and what.
What the EU and US are collaborating about, and trade off and deals are being made behind our backs in exchange for an increased US MILITARY presence inside Central European borders…
So, surprise, surprise, you know what’s unwelcome?
The relentless corporate media whipping up sentiments AGAINST Russia, whilst they (New York Times, CNN, Fox) COVER UP the US’s role, the machinations of the EU that leads to violence in Ukraine.
You and your friends aren’t influenced by such. Fair enough.
But the influence of the US media has not gone unnoticed abroad…
Although Cold War is mentioned, the parallels are actually with Venuzuela.
That’s what’s being platformed, not an “encroaching” Russia.
After all, the US supported, funded and backed both countries’ ogliarchies: weren’t the suits in the US State Department caught on tape plotting the February coup in Kiev quite recently?
Sure enough, there’s a leaked tape circulating of them disclosing $5 billion has been spent to make the coup happen…!
One version of events goes like this:
The protests in the western Ukraine are organized by the CIA, the US State Department, and by Washington- and EU-financed Non-Governmental Organizations (NGOs) that work in conjunction with the CIA and State Department. The purpose of the protests is to overturn the decision by the independent government of Ukraine not to join the EU.
The US and EU were initially cooperating in the effort to destroy the independence of Ukraine and make it a subservient entity to the EU government in Brussels. For the EU
government, the goal is to expand the EU. For Washington the purposes are to make
Ukraine available for looting by US banks and corporations and to bring Ukraine into NATO so that Washington can gain more military bases on Russia’s frontier. There are three countries in the world that are in the way of Washington’s hegemony over the world–Russia, China, and Iran. Each of these countries is targeted by Washington for overthrow or for their sovereignty to be degraded by propaganda and US military bases that leave the countries vulnerable to attack, thus coercing them into accepting Washington’s will…
The problem that has arisen between the US and EU with regard to Ukraine is that Europeans have realized that the takeover of Ukraine is a direct threat to Russia, which can cut Europe off from oil and natural gas, and if there is war completely destroy Europe. Consequently, the EU became willing to stop provoking the Ukraine protests.
The response of the neoconservative, Victoria Nuland, appointed Assistant Secretary of State by the duplicitous Obama, was “f!ck the EU,” …
…The US- and EU-financed NGOs are fifth columns designed to destroy the independence of the countries in which they operate. Some pretend to be “human rights organizations.” Others indoctrinate people under cover of “education programs” and “building democracy.” Others, especially those run by the CIA, specialize in provocations…
…Washington has a vested interest in keeping the protests going in the hopes of turning the protests into revolt so that Washington can grab Ukraine.
http://www.hangthebankers.com/us-spent-5-billion-to-destabilize-ukraine/
So when you say:
— I can agree 100%.
People don’t like that kind of interference over are, either.
LikeLike
@ Linda, I’ve reviewed my earlier comments and I think I owe you an apology.
My apologies for making it sound as though you and your friends wouldn’t arrive at an informed and independent conclusion.
I should know you better than that! My mistake.
LikeLike
@ Jefe, that’s kind of you say.
I am so busy these days, I come to blog to take my mind of business and commitments. Then, I simply don’t understand properly the US-slant of many of the posts, I feel too stupid to participate most of the time.
And I read slowly — I haven’t even read Rayfield Waller’s commentaries on African Sold Their Own People, yet.
LikeLike
@ v8, i love maps and that map says everything.
What a bunch of gangsters.
LikeLike
@Bulanik
“I simply don’t understand properly the US-slant of many of the posts, I feel too stupid to participate most of the time. “—Don’t say that. No matter the barriers I have always found that you bring great knowledge to any discussion, so please do not sell yourself short. I knew very little in regards to the information both you and linda provided and it was a great little lesson for me.
LikeLike
@ Bulanik
Can you elaborate on that? Is there anything I can do to make them more understandable? Like maybe in how I write posts, what I assume readers know or topics I leave uncovered? Or something I am blind to?
LikeLike
“Bulanik, Please don’t tell me I read too much into ANYTHING, because I don’t.
You said what you said and I got it.
Don’t get me wrong: we’ve always respected each other’s PoV, and have never had a problem understanding each other. It’s a serious, world issue at hand, and there was simply more, much much more here at stake than a point about Europeans and their tribalism.”
Linda says,
Bulanik, I don’t expect you or anyone else here to agree with me if you see things from a different point of view — you’re supposed to and I expect you to put in your 2 cents… that’s what we want here on this blog, right? Diverse points of view…so we can all see the different sides of the prism– I know you are speaking your mind with no malicious intent behind it..
and you brought up many points about the Ukraine/Russia situation which I did not elaborate on in my initial comments because that was not my focus…. my intent was to drop and run because I wanted to vent — I got really irritated watching the news program and listening to the news
my point was that I found it ironic that the US media “talking heads” on the program I was watching, kept stating how “important history in Europe is and the cold war” and why it’s important for the American public to take note of the situation in eastern Europe – when they themselves (media) don’t really “know” what is really happening
I WANT to do an analysis on race and the American media / government –how they push for the general public to have “selective memories” –especially when it comes to conflicts that involve white people vs black people/non-white people…but when 2 white “tribes” are fighting
these European conflicts take on a legitimacy with the American media that we don’t see given to Africa… how come European ethnic groups are never called “tribes”? but conflicts in between 2 African ethnic groups are described as “tribal warfare”….
I did not want to “derail” my point by delving deeper into “crisis” happening between two European “tribes” that have been fighting with each other for 100’s of years.
that’s why I said you “read too much” into my statements — I believe that you did get the “gist” of what I was saying but you moved my goal post 🙂
LikeLike
Bulanik @ Linda. Your first post the subject is quite different from the subsequent 2 in reply — which is a good thing! lol.
Linda says,
Also, I stand by everything I said in my initial comments and those concerning my friends — I am conveying their words and thoughts…. not my own
I felt sorry for the Ukrainians because the protestors worked so hard to be heard and I believe that every country should have the right to “self determine”
I don’t see my statements as being “different” —
as I mentioned, my Czech/Slovak friends can “sympathize” ie meaning they can “understand” how the Ukrainians must feel having Russia marching “uninvited” into their country but do they feel “sorry” for the Ukrainians– no they don’t
hence me saying “that they don’t care what happens with Ukraine… meaning, they have no vested interested in whether Russia annexes the Crimea or not….their interest in the conflict are more self-centered, ie
they do care that the gas prices might go up if Russia takes the entire Ukraine (which they doubt will happen) or that Russia will play hardball with any western European country that supports the US in this crisis…. but do they feel sorry for the Ukrainian people?, no they don’t (I asked them again after I read your comments)
they view Russia and Ukraine as a dysfunctional married couple…
and based on my understanding of their point of view, they don’t feel any solidarity with Ukraine and the National front in the opposition party reminded them of the past
I brought up my friends statements because they truly “surprised” me by bringing that up (WW2/Ukraine)… I even made a joke that if they told this to a white American, they would be told to “forget about it and move on”…. because that’s what white Americans tell black people.
LikeLike
@Bulanik & @Sharina
I often feel the same as you do, because I am not American. I agree with Sharina: you bring great insights to the party! I entirely agree with your posts about the Ukraine. As I teach English to foreigners in the UK, I have a lot of Polish, Slovak etc students, and that was exactly what they thought. About “moving on”: I think it was made impossible because this resentment was cultivated by the communist governments to make sure the countries dominated by Russia would not unite against The Kremlin. The consequence being that they kept alive the very spirit of national independence which caused the USSR to be toppled…just like giving high standards of education to the masses created large numbers of educated and critical people who were able to think for themselves and destroy the system. So, funnily, the destruction of the USSR was caused by its two greatest achievements: nurturing national spirit and educating the masses, but nurturing natinal spirits is also a breding ground for the extreme right. While I have every sympathy for the Kiev protesters, I am worried about the uniformed heavies in their ranks, who are not showing their faces but look trigger happy and proficient with knives and fists.
@ Bulanik: I think there a few of us here who appreciate getting insights into racism made in the USA, and also may remind our US brothers and sisters, that sometimes, things are exactly the same, and sometimes they are different, and sometimes this difference is a reason to hope.
LikeLike
For anyone who wants to see more about the members of the neo-nazi Ukrainian opposition party that just came into power in Kiev, that the USA, Obama, and the Republicans (like John McKain) want support and are offering them Millions of dollars of your hard earned money… here is a video detailing how the Ukrainian Nationalist’s feel about black people.
In the video, they appear so tough but when Russia comes knocking on their front door, they all have nothing to say…they don’t want a half-African/half Ukrainian woman representing the Ukraine in an international competition but now they have no shame in begging a half-African man, Obama, for money.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzoquZRKdXE)
LikeLike
The half-African/half Ukrainian woman is beautiful. Thanks for posting the link.
LikeLike
no problem,
just wanted everyone to know where those racist Republicans want to spend your hard earned dollars…that’s why I say let the Ukrainians fight their own battle.
LikeLike
Oh yes! I am absolutely furious at how we are manipulated by the media: during the European football cup, the media were predicting problems because the Ukraine has so many exrteme right movements, neo-nazis/racist. Suddenly, they rebel against Russia and it cleanses their ideology does it?
Eastern Europe…
I teach two types of sclasses: young apprentices, and I often observe that being a teenager seems a stronger bond than anything else. As for the thers, the foreigners I teach English to… Many are from Eastern Europe and some have never seen non-whites before coming to the UK, so their prejudices are based on readings and being brain washed. 6 years ago, I had a nightmare class: this Polish woman in her 30s was shocked: “I thought everyone was white in the UK, why do they let these people (Asians, Africans etc) in?” She would not sit next to a non-white. She was very vocal, she thought it was all right for her to voice her opinions because she was white. These opinions included incredible stuff she took as fact regarding intelligence and other things, she also made a few brutal remarks concerning Roma people. I was sick and tired of having to ask her to have a quiet word with me in the corridor. Moreover, she thought she was owed a fully white, native British tutor and created all sorts of problems (and she was eventually “disciplined” by another Polish student who loved our multicultural class and ended up marrying an Iranian). Now, funnily, the only students who did get along with her in a very distant way were a guy training to be an Imam, and extreme in his own right, who tried as hard as he could to never listen or talk to me, a mere woman and darker than him, and, there was also a Congolese lady who had an outburst of rage when we studied “equal opportunity “. She could not get over the fact you are not allowed to attack gays and wish they were dead and rotting in hell. For me, it was just one more example of how extremists actually get along very well, even if they are from opposite sides.
(I have never since had such an “interesting” mix. Students have been on the whole more than ok in terms of accepting each other. )
LikeLike
@ Linda
You are one of the consistent and consistently generous spirits here, Linda.
You also have the great strength of knowing the US and the culture-of-talk far, far better than I could, therefore your commentary won’t be misjudged in quite the same way as mine, even though we sometimes say fairly similar things 😀
Not all well-meaning commenters are treated in the same way, I’m afraid.
Because of this, it’s probably better for me to come here for info, see other perspectives, and share less of mine.
(Hey, by that I don’t mean to say that you don’t do your own fair share of enquiring! For example your question about sexuality, identity and race:
I replied to your questions (even though you may not have seen it), hinting at the wider implications of power and acceptance:
*
Re your subject of conflict among white ethnic groups, you said:
I believe your observation is the the matrix of white supremacy: not all the layers and threads of connections of this matrix are visible, such as:
— hierarchies within hierachies,
— oppressions intersectied with other oppressions, and
— the consolidation of power and resources.
The white media’s language and image for Africa (e.g., “tribalism” and “chaos”) is there to signpost us to look in the wrong places. It’s done to distract us from the machinations of white supremacy, particularly its imperialism.
So, although powerful whites ARE deeply involved in Africa’s problem-making and cycle of broken-ness, those African Problems have to be simultaneously SEEN BY THE MEDIA as organically African, as the outcomes of black people, and completely removed, completely foreign.
How else can the benefits of that conflict and bloodletting sustain and fund white supremacy? The message from these broadcasts has to be one that says “White people are the most competent custodians of Africa, and if the blacks are going to cannibalize each other — it’s their nature, y’know — then it’s their own fault that white corporations and governments cash in from it…”
But isn’t it actually the same ACTIONS in Ukraine, only more subtle?
We are not supposed to see the hand of white supremacy in this, because other white people aren’t supposed to be the object of white supremacy, are they? But, a white country like Ukraine CAN be taken and used for white supremacist purposes simply because white people are the minority on the planet. The Ukrainians don’t have to know they are white or identify with whiteness. What they feel and think, need or want doesn’t matter…they’ll soon get the message and fall in line with whiteness with neo Nazis and fascists at the helm, won’t they.
In the Western, white media, Ukrainians ARE white, and even they are low-grade kind of white (like pre-white Irish and pre-white Jews), their white bodies beef out the numbers of whites globally — so it does not pay to inferiorize them in a “racial” way in the media. There is nothing to gain from bringing out their chaotic, uncivilized and tribalistic history.
No, their colour makes them “neutral”.
But that doesn’t stop them being robbed (and marginalized) in just the same way as any African nation.
LikeLike
Linda, contd
Note how the planning and sequence of events, with some dates:
Victor Yanukovych was ousted on 22nd Februrary, 2014.
MORE THAN 2 WEEKS BEFORE that, US State Department’s Victoria Nuland had engineered his overthrow.
She said, “Fuck the EU” on 4th February, and the deal was done and dusted by then. You know the content, just listen to the tone: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QxZ8t3V_bk)
Do you think that tone would be any different when an African country is the target of UK’s or the US’s attentions?
*
Although they could predict what the Russians were up to, I don’t know whether the Poles, Czechs and Slovaks you know in the States were equally aware of Vitoria Nuland’s sentiments and actions — weeks and weeks before it happened? If not, then why not?
I wonder whether their focus, and perhaps their cynicism, was only aimed at Russia’s manoeuvres, rather than those of the US, manoeuvres which are are at least, if not more, aggressive and sinister…?
*
Last week it came out that EXXON is seeking the right for oil drilling in Crimean area. Did the Russian’s know that there might be oil and gas in Crimea?
Of course they knew.
That’s why in 1994 the Russians insisted on keeping their Black Sea fleet in Sevastopol and made a deal with Ukraine on that. In their agreement it also says that Russia has a right to have up to 25,000 soldiers in Crimea on top of their Navy.
Russia’s foreign minister and President Putin both warned the West not to interfere with Ukraine TWO WEEKS BEFORE the catastrophe.
This was so because they had heard the phone call where Victoria Nuland says: “I don’t think we (USA) should be in this government (Ukrainian)”.
They also watched Victoria Nuland visit Kiev a couple days before the fighting started…
At the same time as her visit, 5,000 neo Nazis arrived in Kiev from their western Ukraine stronghold, and then, they then proceeded to burn down the local HQ of the Ukranian Communist party and battered its leaders to a pulp. And, with whose assistance? USAID (a well known CIA cover), who had organised their transport to Kiev.
Forward to Valentine’s Day, 2014.
Ultraviolent clashes began between the police and the demonstrators, launched by the neo Nazis. In the following days the violence escalated. The neo Nazis stormed several government buildings and took over one major hotel on the square. They also burned down a of couple buildings.
At least one demonstator was beheaded.
The police had no axes or anything like that. However, the neo Nazis did. Some rumours said that two police men were also becapitated but this was not confirmed. Shown here: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_9hZqBFHhY)
Somebody began to shoot the police. The police answered back.
There are videos of the police snipers on the scene.
Those photos show the demonstrators having rifles, sniper rifles, pistols and revolvers. There is no question both sides were shooting based on the photographic evidence. 23 police men were shot to death.
77 demonstrators. On 18th February, a truce was called.
22nd February, Yanukviych escapes. All of it planned.
And when this new, US created government was in place, what were some of the first decisions — in which 6 neo nazis are now as ministers?
State Security is led by a neo Nazi.
Communism is criminialized.
Crimea has lost its autonomy.
And this government it the one Victoria Nuland engineered 18 day BEFORE its creation. This government is the one Kerry and Obama call democratic and free. Six neo-Nazis in government. Racism is an essential feature to this new government. Racialization is key…
LikeLike
@ annef1
It DOES work both ways. It’s not a question of it’s “better” or “less” in Europe or elsewhere. The European brands aren’t less or better ANYTHING.
The difference is that the US is a superpower, and its hand will be unseen…
LikeLike
@ Bulanik I agree, and you will have noticed I did not use words like “better” or “worse”. As you say, the difference and the issue is that the USA being a superpwower, they “export”, function as benchmark etc.
LikeLike
Annef1, thank you for understanding precisely what I mean.
LikeLike
@BUlanik
I am often a big fan of what you write, and if I do not react, it’s because I would have nothing to add!
LikeLike
“Bulanik,
Although they could predict what the Russians were up to, I don’t know whether the Poles, Czechs and Slovaks you know in the States were equally aware of Vitoria Nuland’s sentiments and actions — weeks and weeks before it happened?”
Linda says,
The media here in the US played the tapes of Victoria Nuland. We thought it was sort of funny because she was caught with her hands in the cookie jar… and of course, after dissing the EU, Kerry still expects them to back up the US and their agenda….
and Great information you just brought in… this is the type of information that Needs to be heard.
I honestly wish I could say I support the Ukraine in their bid for their move “westward” but I don’t because I watched Euro Cup 2012 when Poland and Ukraine were hosting and I was absolutely disgusted –the neo-Nazi fans were attacking black/non-white people at random. The media tried to downplay it but the players themselves were talking.
The last thing the EU needs is one more pro-white eastern European country that doesn’t understand why you can’t call black people monkeys and get upset when countries like Switzerland vote to keep them out because they’re tired of the low-class poor trash whites wanting to move in.
The Ukraine is and always will be Russia’s “heaux” … the US is backing the wrong race horse and needs to take a seat on this one.
LikeLike
@ annef1. Thank you.
@ abagond. I will answer your questions by email.
LikeLike
@ Linda
Thank you for this. *Standing O* Double standard at its best. 🙄
LikeLike
@ Linda, if racism in football is any kind of barometer, then Ukraine’s neo-Nazi’s fit right in.
Racism is practically commonplace, I had to smile when you mentioned the Swiss. Recall what happened in Basel, with Fwayo Tembo? The club’s coach spoke of him thus:”get that monkey out of that tree”.
No doubt you will remember the upsurge in racism in German bundesliga after the fall of the Berlin Wall fell? Mostly monkey chants are now sidestepped in favour of “88”, meaning “Heil Hitler”.
But sometimes it slips out. Remember how Ade Ogungbure responded when someone called him “ape”?
http://www.spiegel.de/international/racism-in-soccer-player-silences-german-racists-with-hitler-salute-a-409517.html
And, let us not even get started about Spain (!), France, UK, Italy, Belgium…
LikeLike
Nice post. Everyday is White history month in this country. I don’t actually think this post is necessary but it is funny though.
LikeLike
I was looking for a baseline of what is already covered in White American history.
This is probably the closest I could find for a US history summary by white people for white people, and pretty much just about white people.
http://www.ushistory.org/us/
Examples:
1. “KKK” (as was lynching) was more like a footnote:
“Out of a marriage of hatred and fear, the Ku Klux Klan, the Knights of the White Camelia, and the White Brotherhood were born. They are all supremacy groups who aimed at controlling African-Americans through violence and intimidation. Massacres, lynching, rape, pillaging and terror were common. ”
(The entire history of american genocide, massacres, lynching summarized in one sentence with less than 10 words. Surely this deserves more attention than, say, the Panama Canal.)
2. Trail of Tears
There is an article on the trail of tears, but imagine yourself to be a Native American reading this account of “your” history. Geez.
3. Asian-Americans
It mentioned that Chinese built the Union Pacific and Southern Pacific railroads, and formed a majority of many of the mining towns (until the Exclusion Act of 1882) – they helped white Americans develop the industrial economy and lay the infrastructure to open the West in the name of Manifest Destiny and to help white businesses in the East grow. There was no mention at all re: what happened to Chinese Americans after 1882 and why there was an exclusion act in the first place.
There is nothing else about Asian Americans except the Japanese Internment camps. Imagine you are Asian American and want to learn about your history. The amount covered in High School? ZILCH.
4. Booker T vs. WE Dubois
– at least they gave some voice to both sides. This is a slight improvement over when I was in High School. I learned about DuBois in my outside reading, not in high school.
5. Jim Crow
– NOTHING on the history of Jim Crow (except brief mention about a new order replaced the old after Reconstruction). But nothing on the actual history of it. Nothing on how it affected Native Americans and Asian Americans.
I was in high school 35 years ago, so they stopped shortly after WWII. They did not cover the Civil Rights movement (as I guess it was too soon before then), so I read these to understand what is being taught now. They stop with the election of Bill Clinton. There is nothing about the “War on Terror”.
I am not impressed. It is not really much better than 35 years ago.
LikeLike
@ Kiwi
Exactly, that’s what interests me too.
Racial classification seems to be the least analysed but most uncritically propagated feature of social studies. In the 17th century* race was something far more vague than it is now, something like a difference in lineage.
By the 19th century, race became about “permanent types”. What started out as something literary and national, turned into biologicial taxonomy and became the explanation for behaviour, inequality and civilization.
(*http://ww2.odu.edu/ao/instadv/quest/Shakespeare.html)
Maybe it’s so BECAUSE of the way of science developed in European and among European Americans? I believe the early biologists were also the social scientists of their times — they were the ones that put forward the correlations between racial descriptions and racial behaviour. Somewhere along the line race became respectable, a part of Nature, something that was “discovered” along with Periodic Table, rather something that was constructed.
I am curious about how that happened.
LikeLike
“Bulanik
@ Linda, if racism in football is any kind of barometer, then Ukraine’s neo-Nazi’s fit right in.
And, let us not even get started about Spain (!), France, UK, Italy, Belgium
Linda says,
So true 🙂 Spain could probably teach them how to chant Monkey sounds in tune to a Flamenco beat.
That’s why I said the EU doesn’t need anymore white Nationalists, they’ve got more than enough already
LikeLike
@ Linda
I just re-read this paragraph ^^ again to get your meaning and bust out laughing!
The Swiss said that? Wow.
Switzerland isn’t even a member state of the EU.
Switzerland’s bankers colluded with Hitler’s Nazis (violating their strict laws on neutrality to tramopoline themselves into stratospheric wealth on the back of genocide and slave labour), and then denied it all. (http://archive.adl.org/braun/dim_14_1_neutrality_europe.html#.UyhK-6huOSo)
It was the Swiss govt. who paid for that research into their own murky past, so it seems a bit “kettle calling pot black” that they want to keep the Ukrainians out for moral reasons, like crude racism or nazi practices.
I have a feeling it is probably more to do with immigration issues and economic stability. Ukraine might need a lot of structural work that would be funded by EU if it were ever part of that Union, and the Swiss are very fussy which economic migrants have access to their borders:
http://www.euronews.com/2014/02/18/merkel-warns-against-rush-to-punish-switzerland-for-eu-vote/
There are some muddy waters to tread when some of the European nations pronounce on the historical behaviours of other European nations, or white people in general.
LikeLike
Linda, contd
…And talking of “upset”, remember France wanted to criminalize denial of the Armenian Genocide, a genocide committed by Ottoman Turkey?
Turkey could not expect to ever be a member of the Union if it didn’t face up to their massacres and racial violence.
What was Turkey’s response — “Excuse us, but didn’t you murder 15% of Algeria’s population during the French occupation of that African country?”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16314373
Europe’s bloody pie has many, many blood-soaked fingers in it…nations are acceded into the European Union based on a variety of criteria.
Being white Nationalists is no obstacle. It’s not obstacle because far-right racist parties are fairly common in Eastern Europe.
Just look at one of the most respectably-racist and well-organized and ones, Jobbik, in Hungary, and Hungary is an EU member. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxOKZ5sYW18)
LikeLike
@Kiwi
In one of Abagond’s earlier postings, the concept of race was analysed. Interestingly it seems Spain started it all.
Now to European racism…in my experience (growing up in France, but as a dual national: also Swiss, and mixed race). Race is not defined in quite the same way in all EU countries. Not saying that the French are less racist than the English etc, the French are just not obsessed by every shade of non-whiteness. Also, people do not spend so much time defining themselves and each other in terms of race as they do in other countries I visited or lived in. This is one area where the French are a bit like the Brazilians. There is racism in Brazil, by the way, whatever people say, but it is not like in Spain. I am convinced Spanish racism also has to do with the fact that a lot of people are not that pale: they want to assert their whiteness… Someone wrote in the posting I mentioned above that the Spaniards are quite pale…well, they spend a lot of money of blond hairdye, and if they are not pale, they can always say it is suntan. By the way, their royal family is pale…because it is of German origin. Of course there will be some in France and Switzerland too, but I never experienced monkey chants in either country. I did in Spain, and oh my God, I love Italy and there are a lot of great people in Italy, but they shocked me. There is a lot of right wing stuff in Belgium, but I never experienced any nastiness, while I experienced some nastiness in the UK, directly or aimed at the people who were with me. As I wrote on some other occasion, some Polish or Eastern European immigrants into the UK can be very racists, and not just that, they think it is fine to voice their prejudices crudely, and that nobody will challenge them, or that if challenged, otehrs will rally to their cause. One of my Polish students was stunned by the hostile silence which followed one of her assertions (and then she had to folllow me into the corridor for a bit of one to one, followed by a report etc etc). It is good that, no matter what the underlying feelings are, in the UK, it is not ok to voice racist ideas in public spaces, and I do hope that this first step will create a better society. I do think that not being able to voice stupid prejudices helps reduce them because they stop poisoning every breath we take.
LikeLike
What I find funny about the White Power Movement is how hypocritical it is.
Example: When blacks raise the issue of poverty and social conditions relating to racism, whites respond with – this is a free country, anybody can do anything, blah blah, if you are poor its because you don’t work hard enough or didn’t finish school.
But when it comes to Asians or Jews (especially Jews) they say “theyre taking over our country!” ….”they have too much power”
A big one is Jews when it comes to executive and controlling positions in the media. White Power says this is a “problem” and the proportion of Jews who run media companies in America is something that “should be carefully looked at.” There are also strong accusations of nepotism in Jewish controlled corporations.
Whats the matter, I thought this was America. Anyone can be successful if they apply themselves. If whites think there are too many Jews in charge, they need to work harder. Im sure the Jewish CEOs will hire you if you are qualified. If not, then start your own media company!
LikeLike
^ I love that.
LikeLike
^ Haha!! Great comment Timothys Coffe!
LikeLike
Ha! Of course Legion would agree!
LikeLike
@ Linda
Eastern Europe is horribly racist. France and the UK, (and even Germany) as far as I know, are not as bad – certainly no worse than the US, at least. Germany is overcompensating, trying to erase their bad image and desperately wanting to be accepted as a “western country.”
But Eastern Europe is brutal. Black soccer players in Europe are afraid to go to Poland, Ukraine, Russia and the Baltic states. In fact, most black players from the UK or France refuse to even play in those countries, out of fear for their life.
And anti-Semitism in those countries is rampant. Youtube “Anti-Semitism at Soccer Games in Poland.” You will be in for a shocker.
LikeLike
Timothys Coffee,
Great comment above.
And to respond to your most recent comment, I had a racist troll who claimed to be from Eastern Europe. He was very racist. Yet, accused me and my blog of being racist against whites. I don’t want the categorize all of the Eastern European countries because of him, but that guy was a small sample.
LikeLike
@Timothy’s coffee
According to research done a efw years ago, the richest and most powerful group worldwide were white male protestants, and mostly Americans. The problem is with their “too many Jews!” outcry, is that they assume that the default position is the above, so as soon as other groups increase enough to become visible, no matter that the proportion is small, they protest. Cue: “Bossy women bosses”: there ar not a lot of wmen bosses, proportionally, so it’s just noise because they have become visible against the “default” (male, white etc).
@Brothawolf: I agree about not wanting to tar all Eastern Europeans with the same brush: I have had students who went out of their way to discipline (through conversation and arguments) their racist compatriots and tell them to go back home if they did not like a multiracial/multiethnic/multicultural class. In two cases, though, I was confronted with a type of racism that was more vocal, malicious, offensive, virulent than anything I had ever witnessed. That’s when I really understood what the previous generations had to face. So far, it had been “intellectual understanding and empathy”, I could not afford to show how it made me feel then, but it was crushing and soul destroying, even though I knew I was going to go back to a much more pleasant environment once the class was over. And the college kicked one of the guys out as he refused to engage with his action plan. Everyone in the class testified with glee, so vindication…yet I had a terrible feeling of failure. He needed educating really, because this expulsion only consolidated his prejudices, but I did not want to give him MY time and efforts anymore.
LikeLike
“Timothys Coffee,
But Eastern Europe is brutal. Black soccer players in Europe are afraid to go to Poland, Ukraine, Russia and the Baltic states. In fact, most black players from the UK or France refuse to even play in those countries, out of fear for their life.”
Linda says,
yes, the eastern Europeans are very vocal with their feelings on race. I lived in Germany for several years before and after the wall came down… I am not so sure the east Germans are feeling any kind of “repentance” about how they feel concerning foreigners/ race
I’m an avid soccer fan and unfortunately, racism affects all the European teams…but the teams I hate the most because of their off the chain racist fans/players are: all of Italy (I salute Mario Balotelli for sticking it out and shoving it in their faces) and I detest Barcelona (Spain) because their fans just don’t give 2 fks and are worse than Real Madrid (Spain).
The black players in UK and France have it the best–the clubs seem to take racism seriously and the British fans are way more supportive of their teams.
I think during that particular Euro Cup (in Ukraine)– the neo-Nazi groups were being very vocal before the competition started, the black players were trying to make a stand — it wasn’t that they were deathly afraid… they were just sick of the BS and want FIFA to do something concrete about it. (I know some of them told their families to stay home)
but lets not forget money talks and even though the French and UK black players don’t wish to play for eastern European teams, other black/brown players from other countries are willing to play for the Russian Premier League teams because the money is there… like Hulk (Brazil) plays for Zenit and Luton Shelton (Jamaica) plays for Volga Nizhny Novgorod, Samual Eto (Camaroon) played for Anzhi Makhachkala
Because of the money, a lot of the African soccer players have played for Russia or have been tempted to play (like Didier Drogba)
now are the Russian fans happy about that? Absolutely NOT but oh well, it’s about winning games for club owners, everything else can take a seat….
LikeLike