“Back to Africa” (1816- ) is the idea that blacks in America should go back to Africa. Its most famous champion was Marcus Garvey in the 1920s, but in America the idea goes back at least to the founding of the American Colonization Society (ACS) in 1816.
The ACS lasted till 1964. It founded Liberia, sending 13,000 blacks there from the 1820s onwards. Among ACS supporters:
- White slave owners, who saw free blacks as a threat to slavery, both as possible troublemakers and as living examples that gave lie to the idea that blacks were fit only to be slaves.
- Ordinary whites, who feared free black labour, who thought America was for whites.
- Martin Delany and other blacks, who saw America as too racist for blacks ever to have much of a future there.
White abolitionists and most blacks were against the ACS: they saw blacks as having a rightful, equal place in American society. They believed in a multiracial society.
Lincoln stood in between. For most of his life he was against slavery and against letting blacks remain in America. He was an ACS supporter! In 1862 he still believed in ethnic cleansing. But by the time he gave the Gettysburg Address in 1863 he believed in a multiracial society – thanks in part to Frederick Douglass and black soldiers, thanks in part to failed attempts to send blacks to Panama and Haiti.
Possible black homelands:
- Liberia: Most blacks who went to Liberia were dead within 20 years, particularly from disease. They lacked food. They were settler colonialists at odds with natives, not unlike whites in America or South Africa. They had forgotten most of their African ways, speaking a European language, practising a European religion. Only in time were these Americo-Liberians accepted as Africans.
- Sierra Leone: The British meanwhile sent freed slaves to neighbouring Sierra Leone. Among them were American blacks who fought on the British side in the American Revolution. They freely mixed with whites and native Africans, giving rise to the Krio culture.
- Oklahoma: Not in Africa, but for a time there was a push by blacks to make Oklahoma a black state. It had all-black towns, even Black Wall Street….
The desire to go back to Africa grows and weakens with white racism:
- It was strongest in the 1820s and 1920s after waves of race riots. Marcus Garvey’s message appealed most strongly to blacks of the Great Migration, who found that by moving North they did not escape white racism.
- It was weakest in the late 1800s and late 1900s when America was moving towards a multiracial society.
But the idea never firmly took root:
- Blacks have been in America too long. They have forgotten their old African languages, religions and lands. America is the only home most of them know, a country built on the blood, sweat and tears of their families – in slavery, in war, even in protest.
- Black churches teach the brotherhood of mankind. So the main push has always been for an egalitarian, multiracial society within America, not for an ethnic homeland beyond.
See also:
The depiction of Marcus Garvey in general histories is of its own accord an interesting topic. Every effort is made to make him look like a comic opera figure. He regularly is, or at least was in the past, shown in a uniform resembling that of a band leader. Sometimes he is leading a parade of similarly dressed men. What people are not told is that there was in America in that era a widespread lodge or fraternal movement among American men generally. Parading in uniform was part of it. Parading in general was more prevalent in that era. Even knowing that much puts Garvey in a different light, but it also shows how futile his idea was in the American context. Garvey, who was born in Jamaica, was as American as apple pie in spite of himself.
He also belongs to that list of figures who are mocked for taking taking a stance contrary to the prevailing stance of radical federalism and progressive socialism.
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Abagond, can you provide proof that Lincoln became a believer in a multiracial society after meeting Douglass? That conversion so late in life sounds incredible to me.Thanks.
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Great post! Lincoln also attempted to send freed slaves to Coszumel, Mexico. I learned about it when I went on a cruise to the island a few years ago. Apparently, the story is he decided against it because there was war going on in that area at the time. It states he wanted freed black to leave because they would never we equal in society. I think he was right.
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Interesting post. So sad to learn about the blacks returning to Africa via Liberia after 20 yrs being killed off due to famine etc. I’m of the mind to stay right here in the USA to be a constant reminder to white folk that we will forever remain, take us or leave us…we are here to STAY!! LOL…
*in my Celie voice* 😀
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I like your blog, but I think that you put too large an emphasis on black churches and their significance in the black community.
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Also in regard to Liberia…
Americo-Liberian Rule (1847–1980)
Between 1847 and 1980, the state of Liberia was governed by the small minority of African-American colonists and their offspring, together called Americo-Liberians, suppressing the large indigenous majority of 95% of the Liberian population.
Relations between colonists and natives were contentious from the founding of Liberia, and eventually led to the overthrow of the Americo-Liberian regime in 1980. The original inhabitants of the area resented the American settlements and their territorial expansions. They engaged in resistance in all imaginable forms from the inception of colonization until at least 1980.
The Americo-Liberians never constituted more than five percent of the population of Liberia, yet they controlled key resources that allowed them to dominate the local native peoples: access to the ocean, modern technical skills, literacy and higher levels of education, and valuable relationships with many American institutions, including the American government.
Ironically, one aspect of American society that the Americo-Liberians recreated was a cultural and racial caste system—however, in this case with themselves at the top instead of the bottom.
-Wiki
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The day of uprising. Casting off the oppressors.
http://www.executedtoday.com/2008/04/22/1980-thirteen-deposed-americo-liberian-officials/
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Abagond,
Thanks for writing this and putting it out there that Lincoln believed in the separation between blacks and whites even though he did not believe in Manifest Destiny.
The ACS believed that:
“Blacks were to be pitied, but they were doomed to remain inferior. The prejudices and discriminations of white society were an “inevitable necessity.” The two races in America could never be assimilated and it was in the interest of both to live apart. This could best be done by humanely removing the weaker one from the humiliating dominance of the stronger.
Lincoln’s Secretary of State, William Seward, had his eye on the Caribbean basin, which he, Lincoln, and other cabinet members thought was the ideal place to colonize emancipated slaves. Congress set aside $600,000 for this, and during the Civil War the U.S. also was exploring likely spots in Mexico, British Honduras, Guatemala, Honduras, and Costa Rica — not always with the permission of the national governments. Yet the second colonization movement was as much a failure as the first had been. A projected African-American colony at Chiriqui on the Isthmus of Panama fell through. In 1863 some 450 American blacks were settled at Isle a Vache in Haiti, but it was a debacle and starvation and smallpox wiped them out.”
http://www.slavenorth.com/colonize.htm
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I disagree. The regalia that Garvey was fond of wearing looks more like what on see on Otto von Bismarck than on a circus clown, or parade musician. The attire of a European conquerer suits him, especially give the Liberian precedent.
Exhibit 1: Announcing himself as the provisional president of Africa, despite the lack of any election, or opinion from any from the continent.
Exhibit 2: Secret meetings with the Ku Klux Klan leaders – even though they were actively terrorizing and murdering black people at the time.
One gets the sense that if Garvey had succeeded, we would see th every same type of situation as in Liberia, where American blacks seek to civilize the “natives” – just as the European colonialists before them.
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I think you give Lincoln too much credit though.
Lincoln’s sole mission in opposing the southern US states was to keep them from growing and breaking away into their own country. He opposed anything that would allow them to grow in size and strength and give them the edge in the Congress — such as having more slave-holding states.
But on the flip side, he also silently supported the efforts of seeing if moving blacks to the Caribbean and Central America was a Viable idea.
The southern states had been looking to gain territories in the Caribbean and Central America since early 1800’s; these ideas were even pursued by past presidents (James Madison, James Polk, Buchanan)
They made many attempts to take over countries in the Caribbean and Central America and got their A’ses handed to them for these “unofficial” wars.
One of the biggest American troublemakers in Central America was William Walker, who was sponsored by big business tycoon (Vanderbilt) and US politicians and had the “unofficial” backing of the US government to invade Central America, where he intended to re-institute slavery — once this was done, the US would ship the black American slaves to Central America — the goal?
For the southern states: Increase their slave-holding territories to bring into the USA; For Lincoln and northern abolitionists: get rid of black people, since the “back to Africa” movement to Liberia didn’t work.
Walker almost succeeded, with money and weapons from USA, he managed to take control of Nicaraugua in 1856:
“Walker took up residence in Granada and set himself up as President of Nicaragua, after conducting a fraudulent election. He was inaugurated on July 12, 1856, and soon launched an Americanization program, reinstating slavery, declaring English an official language and reorganizing currency and fiscal policy to encourage immigration from the United States.”
El Salvador, and other Central American countries led the fight against him. with British assistance he was captured him and handed to Honduras (mi otra pais), where he was executed him – so, America’s plans of re-locating black Americans to Central America were permanently cancelled.
American history forgot about Walker (just like they forget to write about “Black Wallstreet”) but
“he is better remembered in Central America, where his name is still a synonym for Yankee imperialism. He was responsible for the fame of Costa Rica’s greatest national hero, Juan Santamaría, who died heroically during the Second Battle of Rivas.”
http://latinamericanhistory.about.com/od/historyofcentralamerica/a/wwalker_2.htm
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Abagond, please penalize King in some way as punishment for plagiarising my post.
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Also not spoken about is how, once again, the US government made attempts to invade and take over Cuba in order to have another slave-holding territory. The last one led by Cuban exile Narciso López (1848- 1851, 4 attempts)
When I say “official” is because these invasions did not get passed by US Congress because the northern States usually vetoed them BUT these individual northern and southern politicians and Corporations bankrolled the invasions and Congress /President(s) were aware of the success or failures.
Colonel William Crittenden, the nephew of U.S. attorney general John J. Crittenden of Kentucky and 50 of his men, were executed in Cuba after their invasion failed.
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Peanut,
I don’t know how successful it would be for a large group of black Americans to move to a “black or brown” majority country because even though you would share the same skin colour, you are still viewed as Americans.
Besides the cultural gap, the petty jealousies of the local people would make you miserable in the beginning. There would be no way for you to be seen as “one of them”…
Classism would be your biggest enemy… Americans are viewed as being rich. Even immigrants who move to the US find it hard when they return home to their countries. Everyone views you differently.
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I am only guilty of pre-plagiarizing it.
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Peanut should go travel first to Africa or to the relevant Caribbean or Latin American country and get her impressions first. Maybe spend some time there. Then come back and perhaps find a new perspective about the USA. Do this before actually relocating.
I don’t think the most Americans would feel happy doing that. I think the place Americans seem to enjoy might be Brazil. But that place has problems of its own.
Other places – multiracial multi-ethnic places like Trinidad? or maybe the Seychelles?
I think another possibility to consider might be — Guangzhou in southern China. Over 100,000 Africans from many different countries have settled in that city in the past 2 decades and they now are a very visible element in the society now. Yes, they are still a small minority, but there is no white American oppressive force to be subjected to and little violent crime. It actually might be easier to move to a place where you are not expected to assimilate.
For most people staying in the USA, I think the most important thing is – make sure your history is being taught and remembered — don’t let it be swept under the rug.
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Here are some docs about African Americans repatriating to Africa:
Blacks Without Borders: Full Movie
There’s the usual condescending Eurocentric tone through out this short doc, but if you can manage to stomach your way through it, it gives some relevant information:
“African Americans Repatriate to Ghana part 1”
(http://youtu.be/e0VDLPkq0vE)
“African Americans Repatriate to Ghana (part 2)”
(http://youtu.be/ctDMxzabRSo)
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Psalm 68:31 says:
Desire and emotional attachment to an ancestral land are only natural for displaced peoples. I had a glimpse of this yearning with the Ethiopianism of Rastafari that I used to know. Ethiopianism is one such ideology that ties a fragmented people together in a matrix of identity, purpose and destiny:
“Africa for the Africans, etc…”
To be brief: Rastafari believe that Ethiopia is their home, and the late Emperor Haile Selassie I, their God and King. That being so, the Emperor donated 500 acres of his own land for their resettlement/repatriation.
Some took up that offer.
I believe there were 22 families who settled in Ethiopia’s Shahamane woreda -or District (Oromia region) – between 1952 and 1974.
There were more from the English-speaking diaspora that followed.
I doubt if their numbers exceeded 3,000 at its height, but that number dwindled drastically whilst adjusting to a harsh new country, which was nothing like the romantic promised land some may have imagined. So much to contend with: different cush!tic languages, different traditions, cultures, an unfamiliar nationality for neighbours — for one — and the conditions that followed Emperor Salassie’s fall from power — must have been worse. I recall hearing that when Mengistu Mariam came to power after the Emperor, he confiscated most of the land granted to the Rastafari by him.
Not everyone could or did adjust, and discrimination was, and is, strong for the Western foreigners and their different ways — I even doubt whether smoking marijuana is even legal in that country — for example.
However, some members did assimilate and were able to build families there.
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correction: *through it, some relevant information is given.*
and then there’s this that was put up on may 30th:
What do you think?
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I remember when the president of Senegal offered land to the Haitian people who were affected by the 2010 earthquake as a form of repatriation to the land of our ancestors.
I think this form of repatriation is available from several West African countries. Personally, I see nothing wrong with the idea of returning.
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correction: *which was put up*
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Here’s a beautiful song for us by Zahara – lengoma called “This song”. I hope it resonates with all of you like it did with me:
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I am not sure about going back we are a different person than those who were taken. We have been too long in use like an oven stone that finally discolors from the oils that have been place upon it. However, I am full agree that we could work community better. Start up, thinks like students going to those countries and coming from those countries. Start to find business trades with those countries, start up micro-financing, and strengthening our overall economic lot. It is sad because instead of building up our citadels we get disperse like a little color dye in an ocean. In japan we use to have JAAFA which was Japanese African Friendship Association. Which mainly turned into Africans and displace Africans getting together and making business plans. The whole thing sank because the leader died and the person who took it over was too scattered to really control it.
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The bottom line being that black Americans are Americans and have a right to be here.
To the person who mentioned Trinidad, I don’t think people would like it there unless they understand the statement I made above. Over there having African ancestry is different than being African. It is through the Trinidadian culture that they identify themselves rather than their genetics.
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Linda, what do you mean by large group?
“I don’t know how successful it would be for a large group of black Americans to move to a “black or brown” majority country because even though you would share the same skin colour, you are still viewed as Americans.”
Do you think African-Americans would have similar problems in a Europe?
Large groups of Chinese people have moved to Africa. Do they face similar challenges? What about white Americans?
I’d think it be easier for African Americans to integrate into a black majority country since no one would know you weren’t African until you spoke.
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Anne,
“Over there having African ancestry is different than being African. It is through the Trinidadian culture that they identify themselves rather than their genetics.”
I believe that’s the appeal of moving to a majority Black country.
Also I don’t believe Africans or Caribbeans are as opposed to or unconcerned with a global black unity as people try to make it seem.
White supremacy is a global phenomenon.
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My grandmother said it best: “I’ll be damn if somebody gunna drag me ‘ginst my will to another damn continent, make me work for damn free for 400 damn years then ‘spect me to up an’ leave all I done built?? No Maam!”
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Culture is what defines a person. So simply having the same skin color or similar facial features does not make your American culture invisible to people in other countries. I can understand the appeal of Trinidad (I am Trinidadian), I was only pointing out that as a people they view the issue of race differently than one might expect.
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As far as I know, afro-americans are usually seen in Europe just as americans, who happen to be black. The image of afro-americans in Europe is, of course, from entertainers, media stars and musicians and athletes and in many European countries just being american separates them completely from africans and other blacks. It is totally different to be from Caribbean or from USA than from Africa.
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I am starting to get the impression (esp. after reading some of these comments too), that one of the problems is that African-American culture is weak (KOT mentioned this in another thread). The idea of moving to another country would be to find another culture to latch onto. Otherwise, you would simply be Americans in a foreign country who are clinging to the white-washed culture they brought with them.
Even one of the stronger African-American institutions, the Church, still operates in the shadow of white culture, and defines itself with respect to the relationship to white culture and white society.
That is why I always advocate building a strong culture full of history and traditions. The problem is more about getting whitewashed into a culture that treats you like an debased outsider unless you finally identify with the culture and people – even if that is a dark-skinned white person.
This blog is great to fill in some of the history gaps. We also need to strengthen the cultural foundations.
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@ Jefe, I agree with your observation. The problem with everything is that we are still American. I have travelled all over and one of the first thing a Kenyan friend said to me was that he knew Americans because they stopped at the stop signs. It is more than just language that would give us away. Which is why I really had wanted to have the lullabies done. I am at this time mulling about just asking people to send in songs that their parents and grandparents sang to them.
I was working a little with some officials in Tanzania to work on getting out more African art for high school kids. Which since the project has been handed off it seems to still be moving. I am hoping that we can get some writers together to write down some stories as in like Aesop fables, or Mother Goose style with more of a message for African American kids. I don’t think we will be able to separate ourselves from being American, English, French, Canadian, etc. but I do expect that we can start reaching out more.
Unfortunately, I tend to overstretch myself and that isn’t good.
This is just my feeling and I could be wrong, but I still think we look too much for acceptance. I would rather go to the darkest people in India and work on building relations and reach out to the Aboriginals in Australia and say lets work together. I still tend to let my own American ideas get in the way because I know them better, they have been instilled in me, and they are as personal to me as the darkness of my skin. Yet, I also know that if I want a better world for my son I have to find away to organize what I want.
I think the problem of back to Africa for me is that I will always want to take a big part of America with me. We would start to want to empire build. I watched this program in Japan where they got together old farmers and engineers who were around when during WWII. These people show the villagers how to make an oven out of the basic dirt and easy to make concrete, or how to dig their own well using materials they had around.
I am American and I thought at the time that giving money was the best I could do. What useful thing I do for anyone?
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I would like to go to Africa. America is the only home I know, but I can have another home
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If African-Americans are to go back to Africa. Why not Irish go back to Ireland. The English back to England, French to France. Etc. Give the land back to Indians for which the English settlers pillage, plundered, raped and killed untold numbers of Indians.
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“Solesearch,
I’d think it be easier for African Americans to integrate into a black majority country since no one would know you weren’t African until you spoke.”
Linda says,
Solesearch, I am Caribbean (Jamaican/Honduran), so I can’t speak for the African continent… just my small corner of the world…
as far as “what is a large group?” I’d say 100,000+ is a large group of people.. any amount that is large enough that they don’t feel the need to marry into the native local population in order to assimilate.
and as far as the locals “not” being able to spot a foreigner by sight — not so,
a black American/ foreigners period, can be spotted without opening their mouth. You are given away by the way you dress, how you look, your hairstyles, the part of town you are walking in –skin colour is Not enough to hide you.
the same way that immigrants in the Caribbean community (in USA) can spot someone who just came fresh off the “boat” (wearing “kreps” with dress slacks)
and once you do open your mouth and people hear you speak, you will be designated into the “American” or ” British” category and you will be stereotyped and treated accordingly; and sometimes, that’s not a bad thing — it can work in your favor depending on why you are in the Islands.
Some local townspeople in tourist areas have a dislike for tourism because they feel that they don’t benefit from it… so No, I don’t think the local black people would be overjoyed to have a large group of middle-class black Americans (who they would view as “rich” Americans) moving into their town to own businesses and buy property unless those black Americans were the children of West Indians who left and are coming back home.
Under Obama, many people have been deported back to their/parents home countries in the Caribbean and Central America. In Jamaica, many of these deportees are people who left when they were babies/children, didn’t know their status, and are “American” in their ways… they have a hard time starting their lives in a “foreign” country and integrating (many of them get killed) …main reason, they came without Money and no support.
“The problem is particularly acute in Jamaica, where deportees are largely blamed for the country’s crime woes. Deportees receive little to no resources to help establish new lives, leaving them especially vulnerable to criminal activity, he says.”
http://www.680news.com/2013/03/18/jamaica-no-paradise-for-beleaguered-deportees-sent-to-live-home-again/
Money is what will make the difference between how fast and how “accepting” people will be to you in a black Majority country … your skin colour means nothing.
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“Solesearch,
Large groups of Chinese people have moved to Africa. Do they face similar challenges? What about white Americans?”
Linda says,
I think with the support of the government of the country of their choice, immigrants can achieve many things but xenophobic attitudes of the local people are real and are not just found in the US, Europe or Asia.
that’s what is happening with the Chinese in Africa. The Chinese are doing well and are becoming prosperous in Africa but from some of the articles I read, in countries like Senegal, the locals are not happy because local business people are losing money and the Chinese don’t want to assimilate, so lots of tension.
As far as Jamaica, we already have a Chinese-Jamaican community (Chinese came in the 1800’s), so it’s easier for the new wave of Chinese to come in and do business amongst the local population (because like in Africa), they don’t come empty handed.
My opinion: If black or white Americans were to move to a black majority country, as long as there is support from the national/ local government, (which means they would be coming with their money, technical and business know-how), then they can do many things and the world is their oyster; and will be respected even more if they show that they want to assimilate into the local culture.
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Kiwi,
That is why there should be no need to move anywhere.
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Kiwi said:
Haha. The excellent irony of this.
Africa has been deeply coveted by Europeans, not only as treasure chest, source-bed of fabulous civilization (note: Ancient Egypt), and ultimately, Home.
When Cecil Rhodes, for instance, dreamed of white settlement of the African continent, it wasn’t because he strove for basic freedoms. Instead Africa was the place that the Anglo-Saxon man was destined for his greatest hour. In his “Confession of Faith,” an essay included in his last Will and Testament, he wrote:
“…we are the finest race in the world and that the more of the world we inhabit the better it is for the human race. Just fancy those parts that are at present inhabited by the most despicable specimens of human beings what an alteration there would be if they were brought under Anglo-Saxon influence, look again at the extra employment a new country added to our dominions gives.”
Rhodes wanted to breed and nurture such men — a male race of philosopher-kings — through his Rhodes Scholarship. German men, men of the British Isles and later Ireland, and the white American male elite. It is still the most prestigious scholarship out there.
Even without Cecil Rhodes dreams, he was part and parcel of a kind of “white flight” to southern African countries. The 1960s saw emigration in excess of 500,000 Britons to an increasingly white Africa, a New Jerusalem, around the time the South Asian and Caribbean peoples started arriving in numbers in the UK. At that time, there was great confidence that their elite-status would stand forever, that the world would never change.
(Bernard Ingham, chief press secretary for Margaret Thatcher once said something like: Anybody who believes the ANC will form the government of South Africa is living in cloud cuckoo!)
And now, even though the government of southern African is no longer in white hands, South Africa’s black majority owns less than 10% of the Johannesburg stock market, evidence that Africa’s top economy remains firmly under white ownership, nearly 2 decades after the end of apartheid, despite how many news report say that whites feel there under relentless siege.
http://www.thestandard.co.zw/2012/12/09/south-africas-economy-remains-firmly-in-white-ownership-study/
That doesn’t mean things haven’t changed, and even though I don’t keep US news, it strikes me more and more, that American whites fear that the American future will resemble more and more South Africa’s present.
It’s the basic destiny of demographics: I recall Catholics I knew in Ireland saying “They (the English) stole our land, but there are more of us than them, and we have bigger families, so we’ll just slowly breed ’em out”.
And, it’s not that different in other places, and other contexts.
The perception of whites who must quarantine themselves, their families and their fortunes ultimate fear that there will be no place to go, as the global demographic decline of whites means that even European countries suffer the same fate of dispossession. It’s as if they are saying: Let’s save ourselves and go to Canada, New Zealand, a whiter State…How will civilization be preserved when the world is over-run with the uncivilized masses growing by the day!
I encountered a book recently called “Into the Cannibal’s Pot”, by libertarian writer Illana Mercer, who was, apparently inspired by by Ayn Rand’s protest against “prostrating civilization to savagery.”
The book “follows Russell Kirk’s contention that true freedom can be found only within the framework of a social order. It is a reminder that, however imperfect, civilized societies are fragile. They can, and will, crumble in culturally inhospitable climes. The tyranny of political correctness, so unique to the West plays a role in their near-collapse. Advanced societies don’t just die; they either wither from within, or, like South Africa, are finished off by other western societies. Ilana Mercer delivers a compelling book; it is required reading for thinking people who care about the destiny of western civilization.”
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Linda,
“a black American/ foreigners period, can be spotted without opening their mouth. You are given away by the way you dress, how you look, your hairstyles, the part of town you are walking in –skin colour is Not enough to hide you.”
From my admittedly limited experience, it doesn’t seem that blacks in the Caribbean, Nigeria, or South Africa dress or groom themselves much differently from African Americans. I know they wear traditional clothing but African American/American styled clothing seems to be commonplace.
Braids, locs, and straigtened hair seem to be commonplace.
So what specifically would make you stand out as American?
I don’t see any mass exodus of African Americans as even a remote possibility because even with racism there is no desire in most African Americans to leave the country.
So I’m thinking about the experience of one AA or a family moving to a majority Black country.
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Bulanik,
Irony indeed.
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Linda,
“Money is what will make the difference between how fast and how “accepting” people will be to you in a black Majority country … your skin colour means nothing.”
That’s the point of moving to a majority black country, your skin color not mattering. It’s not to be accepted because of your skin color but not to be targeted or excluded because of it.
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Soulsearch,
Good point but you have to be a person from one of those regions to be able to spot the differences. They are there and are subtle. Two groups of people may wear western style clothing but would wear it differently. I think the point made earlier by someone else is the key. The motivation in moving to another country has to do with taking on that new culture. However, you cannot do that until you are willing to admit that you have a distinct culture of your own. (The interesting part to me is how others can see the universal American culture but Americans can’t). It is only when you do that you can truly appreciate the new culture you are trying to adopt. Just my opinion.
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Anne,
“The motivation in moving to another country has to do with taking on that new culture. However, you cannot do that until you are willing to admit that you have a distinct culture of your own. (The interesting part to me is how others can see the universal American culture but Americans can’t). It is only when you do that you can truly appreciate the new culture you are trying to adopt. Just my opinion.”
What is the universal American culture?
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Helene Cooper’s The House At Sugar Beach is an excellent memoir about growing up Americo-Liberian in the 60’s and 70’s. I didn’t realize the amount of subjugation the Americos imposed upon the native population. There was alot of blatant colorism too,l according to her.
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@ GoldFire
Thanks you for those two excellent video links. I’ve seen the full interview of the “super soldiers” one before but I can use this specific cut version. The song one was so beautiful!
@ Bulanik
Its good to see you back again and commenting!
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I’ve got the title, if not the essay. “Upon The Plausibility Of Sending Everybody Back To Where They Came From”. I can’t speak for anyone else, but I have worked on this idea in a rough ways for years. Yes, it can be done. The people of Anglo-Celtic and Irish descent likely would have to be distributed throughout the Coimmonwealth, however. The other and very contentious issue is the Mestizo. You would need an Army on the border, literally, if you intended to preserve North America as a human biodiversity zone (that’s UN doublespeak for a “no diversity” zone, or “reservation”) for Native Americans or First Peoples.
Still, I kind of like the idea. Then again, I would get a ticket to either Germany, Israel, the Czech Republic, or Sweden or Norway. I guess I could manage there even without my American social security.
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Scipio Africanus
Thanks for the book recommendation. I would love to know more about Americo Liberians.
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@Bulanik,
Indeed, I believe it will be whites who feel compelled to leave. Part of the relocation, say from Southern CA to Utah for many whites was to move to an area where white anglo culture was more prevalent.
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@Solesearch
I imagine it is the one that sticks out like a sore thumb no matter if the person is white, black, even Asian or Hispanic.
Whites don’t see their own culture, and black American culture, well, it is very close to white American culture in most ways. The cultural aspects that are distinctly African-American are a bit weak (as I and others noted), not as strong as the “universal” aspects of American culture that blacks in general share with whites.
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“Solesearch,
Braids, locs, and straigtened hair seem to be commonplace. So what specifically would make you stand out as American?
That’s the point of moving to a majority black country, your skin color not mattering. It’s not to be accepted because of your skin color but not to be targeted or excluded because of it.”
Linda says,
That is truly one less thing to deal with, so in sense, I can see the attraction.
As far as spotting a foreigner, if you choose to move to a majority black country, then you are moving to a country that is poor compared to the US — how the people live is not identical to the cities in the US.
Money dictates what you wear and the material it’s made from_ money dictates if you are seen to be “uptown” or downtown.
You might not be aware of it but its “what” you have on (how you wear it) that gives you away_simply things like a woman wearing a matching skirt and a blouse vs skirt and a T-shirt (local woman); men wearing “neat and symmetrical” dreads vs “doo-doo” or scraggely dreads. Every place has their own styles and trends, so it wouldn’t be hard to see who is the “odd man” out.
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Jefe,
“I imagine it is the one that sticks out like a sore thumb no matter if the person is white, black, even Asian or Hispanic.”
But what is it?
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Linda,
“As far as spotting a foreigner, if you choose to move to a majority black country, then you are moving to a country that is poor compared to the US — how the people live is not identical to the cities in the US.”
Everyone in Africa or the Caribbean isn’t poor. These countries have middle and upper classes.
I’m sure there are plenty of ways to determine if someone is a foreigner or not, but I think you would have to be paying a lot of attention to that person.
Not all Americans are from cities. A lot of us live in small towns. There are plenty of towns in Arkansas that have less than a 1,000 people.
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I guess solesearch may need to soulsearch to answer that one. 😛
American culture is so recognized and pervasive around the world that people will immediately think that certain things are “so American”. And that includes its people. Have you spent a long time outside the USA, or spend any period of time in the USA around 90%+ non-Americans for an extended period of time?
It could include dress, attitudes about religion and government, about being the greatest country on earth, etc. It could include food, guns, attitudes about speaking English, about the legal and judicial system, about money, etc.
Part of it might be thinking that the “American way” is normal or just the way things are. IT is like thinking American values are “universal” values and everyone else is somehow unenlightened.
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Careful, jefe… 😀
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Jefe, if it is so obvious why can’t you describe it? Does it defy description?
What is it?
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@ Kwamla. Thank you. As outlined elsewhere, my life has needed me.
(https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/what-white-history-taught-me/#comment-179314, at the end.)
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I think a lot Black Americans who have the means should visit Western Africa more. Not emigrating or anything. but visit and experience You wouldnt believe how many Swedish Americans that are prancing around Sweden nowadays in the summer to experience their roots.. The problem is that Black Americans have been more uproted from their original heritage So one solution should could be DNA testing, to see where most of your ancesters came from. Ghana, Togo Nigeria etc have a lot to offer culturally and it is hard to put words on the feeling of standing on land where you know this is part of your heritage and your ancesters home. It would probably be a mix of good and bad considering the hardships. But if you do it with grace and not like silly Alica Keys who blessed her baby in a touristy scam-Sangoma (you have no idea how many south Africans that laughed behind her back xD) it will probably be an unforgetable experiance. Coming fromsomeone with an bitter history with my real homeland but it is still part of you!
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A guest post by Cameroonian commenter Femi for those interested in Africa:
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“Solesearch
Everyone in Africa or the Caribbean isn’t poor. These countries have middle and upper classes.”
Linda says,
Very much aware, Solesearch, since I am from there.
I’m giving you examples from my personal viewpoint as an islander, which you want to rationalize so that you can say, “black is black” no matter what … racism may not be your problem but classism will be.
Classism plays a Huge part in black/brown majority countries and the things that your American money can buy, is what will “out” you.
and I ‘m sorry to say, but yes, if you are not in a tourist hotel or town, the locals will pick you out faster than you can say “hey” _because you will look different
what Americans call “poor”, many people in African or Caribbean would call “rich”; your small poor town in Arkansas is still financially better off than a poor ghetto in Antigua.
What you call “middle-class” in America is Not the same as “middle-class” in the Caribbean. You are trying to equate apples to oranges.
The US, Canada, and Europe have Large middle classes; whereas, most Caribbean islands have small middle class and small upper class 5-25%, and a large working class–that is reality. (I can’t speak for the African continent but I’m guessing, the reality is similar)
I love my country(s) and culture, but financially, if everything was so great, why would we leave our countries to move to yours.
and if you are from a small town, then you know how they work…you will not be anonymous.
For some reason, you have a hard time accepting that by being American, you are different — not because of your colour but because of your “privilege”
and if a black or white American moves to the Caribbean or Africa, they are going to automatically be a part of the upper-middle class based on their American privilege which gives them access to money and resources.
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I don’t think it is a good idea to go back to Africa because most Black Americans for cultural and financial reasons.
Honestly, I don’t mind going back to Jamaica, since that is where my family is from, but only if the crime rate decreased and went down.
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an interesting article I found:
“THE PROBLEM of redistributive economics is linked to the small size of Jamaica’s middle class. But why is Jamaica’s middle class so small, having historically been the most progressive British Caribbean nation up to the early 1970s?
In fact, Jamaica’s middle class is quite large and is found residing in some of the world’s most developed nations. They left in droves in the 1960s, ’70s, and ’90s to seek better opportunities for themselves and their families. Many who left Jamaica poor, through the new opportunities afforded in these developed nations, improved their social status, anchoring themselves in the middle and upper classes of these countries.
The middle class of Jamaica is the diaspora! And they are residing in the United Kingdom, United States, Canada, as well as other parts of the Caribbean and Latin America.
They are organised, they have resources and are clamouring to aid in the economic development of their homeland”
http://jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20130515/letters/letters1.html
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Another article on Central/South America”
“For decades, poverty reduction and middle-class growth in the Latin America and Caribbean region (LAC) crept along at a very slow pace, as low growth and stubborn inequality held back progress. Over the last 10 years, however, the region’s fortunes improved dramatically due to changes in government policies that emphasized the delivery of social programmes alongside economic stability.
The end result: The middle class grew by a half to include 30 per cent of the region’s population in 2009. Among the highest achievers were Brazil, which comprised about 40 per cent of the region’s middle class growth; Colombia, where 54 per cent of people improved their economic status between 1992 and 2008; and Mexico, which had 17 per cent of its population join the middle class between 2000 and 2010.
There was no breakdown, however, for the Caribbean.
The report defined middle class in income terms of anyone making between US$10 and $50 per day, which it said provides an increased resilience to unexpected events and reflects a lower probability of falling back into poverty.
The report, however, also described a fourth, vulnerable class, which underscored the need for countries to do much more to increase shared prosperity. Members of this vulnerable class, representing 38 per cent of the population, fared better income-wise than the poor, but lacked the economic security of the middle class.
Sandwiched between the two, the vulnerable class makes between US$4 and US10 per capita, per day.”
http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/news/Middle-class-in-Latin-America–Caribbean-up-50-per-cent_12989917
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“While Africa already has more middle class households than India, the designation doesn’t signify great wealth. The ADB defines the middle class as those with a per capita daily consumption of USD 2 to USD 20. This middle class is composed primarily of small business owners and salaried employees, and it’s changing the economic face of Africa.
The middle class has nearly tripled since the 1980s, and it today represents more than 30% of Africa’s population. Its spending power is creating a new demand for goods and services supplied by Africa’s private sector.”
A video on Kenya’s middle class
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@Peanut
I know the perfect site where you can vent, Diary of A Negress. You can vent there without White trolls coming on and stirring up trouble.
@Linda
I am also Caribbean(Jamaican descent) and I like your links and information. I don’t mind going to Jamaica as long as the crime decreases. This country gets on my nerves. Many of my Jamaican relatives are coming here to escape the crime there.
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Yes, Adeen, it’s like a no win situation. I want to retire home but I know right now, Is not the time due to the economy, which directly impacts crime.
I like south Florida but of late, I am annoyed by the politics, especially since Obama came into office — the racial overtones changed and all the undercover racists crawled out the woodworks.
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have lot friends from African countries and a couple from Jamaica. They were originally from there, then left and later returned. They were spotted IMMEDIATELY!!! Some give aways were things as simple as using fabric softener. The smell gave them away! They were from those places and they stood out. One thing that was universal in their stories is that when they came around prices went up. Why? Because the the locals wanted that American dollar.
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“Jadapoo1
have lot friends from African countries and a couple from Jamaica. They were originally from there, then left and later returned. They were spotted IMMEDIATELY!!!”
Linda says,
Funny but true — we US or British “diasporans” are called “foreigners” by our countrymen because we left to live abroad. Most of us send money home but it’s not enough… the locals want to suck you dry because they feel money for us is “no big deal”.
The vendors always up the prices if they think you are “from a foreign” (which I don’t pay, I haggle like a fishwife — I tell them money don’t grow on trees in America)
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If that has been your experience, mine has been the total opposite…
In fact when i lived in Tanzania, many of the women were dressed to the “nines” (dressy suits, lipstick, heels), often just to go get groceries..made me feel totally out of place because growing up in America, you only dressed that way for “serious” things.
Not you Linda, but i think some on this thread are making sweeping generalizations for what Black/African Americans believe is their culture–even pointing out the falsehood that Blacks in America have no culture. This is bizarre reasoning to me because there is no one way to be a Black American.
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There has pretty much always (in a sense of the past century) been Black expats in Africa. The reasons why they moved are often too numerous and personal to speculate why…
The best thing i could do was ask the ones i knew who did in fact move from a location in the diasporia to Africa…
one family was there because they wanted to speak Kiswahili fluently…others i knew started their own family businesses…
I think going “back” to Africa is an option for Black peoples in the diaspora to consider, much like it is an option for them to relocate to the booming Afropean communities in Germany, Switzerland, and France…
or just to stay where ever they were birthed.
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“phoebeprunelle
In fact when i lived in Tanzania, many of the women were dressed to the “nines” (dressy suits, lipstick, heels), often just to go get groceries..made me feel totally out of place because growing up in America, you only dressed that way for “serious” things.
Not you Linda, but i think some on this thread are making sweeping generalizations for what Black/African Americans believe is their culture–even pointing out the falsehood that Blacks in America have no culture. This is bizarre reasoning to me because there is no one way to be a Black American.”
Linda says,
That’s the hard part with these conversations — nothing is set in stone, so generalizing truly doesn’t touch on all the exceptions to the rule.
did you stick out like a sore thumb in the beginning because you didn’t dress up? What gave you away as a “foreigner”?
As far as there being a “black American” and culture, of course, black Americans have a culture that is distinctly their own. Not sure why someone would say they don’t. After being in N. America for 500 years, they helped to build this country and have have/still influence American society.
and when they travel outside of the US, they take their Americanism with them.
when you lived in Tanzania, did the local people view black Americans as “Africans” or “Americans”? What were their views on their “cousins across the sea”?
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Adeen,
“I don’t think it is a good idea to go back to Africa because most Black Americans for cultural and financial reasons.”
My thing is people move to different countries all the time. Foreigners move to Africa and the Caribbean all the time.
I don’t think African Americans are any less capable of acclimating to a different country than any other group of people.
Actually after dealing with white people I think African Americans are more prepared to do so.
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At Solesearch, I now that most foreigners clusters like ex-pat villages. They get satellite tv so they can watch their shows from home. They all cluster together at the same bar. I have no doubt that African Americans can travel. I have and have been in black clusters. They were a hoot in a half but we bring on our Americanisms. Even the distinct flavor of the parts we are from. Like no way on this side of a planet am I going to butcher a pig just for chitterlings. Then clean them for my guest at all but I might make you a deep dish.
Like I said coming back home to America and the Midwest I get all kinds of question of where I am from. I think there are hundreds of micro-actions that give away that you aren’t native. I got busted as a northerner when I was down south because I put my hat on the bed. Girl straight up told me no Southern man would do that. To this day I don’t know if it is true or what was so bad about it but if a little thing like that gives me away in my own country, how do you go and become native in another. I think maybe your some of your kids and most probably all of your Grand children would finally become. Think about all the clusters we have here. True acclamation for those who just step off the boat is very difficult if not impossible after a certain age.
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I wish I could think of a quick and easy way how to answer “How to spot an American” in a simple description. But as KOT said, there are thousands of micro-actions that give it away. Unless you have hundreds of people asking you every day “Where are you from?”, you probably have already assimilated the micro-behaviors and values from your surroundings. (Exception: Asian-Americans get asked this all the time despite being fully acculturated into the local American culture. For them, the question is replaced by “How long have you been here”, implying that the speaker admits that they are acculturated, but fails to believe that they are local.)
I remember when I went to university in Massachusetts, I saw a group of high school students outside a tourist attraction in Boston that I “instantly” knew was from Maryland and from the county that I grew up in. and lo and behold, I was correct. I often detected someone who was from somewhere near my mother’s hometown, and I would find out that they were from the adjoining county. In a minibus in HK I instantly felt that there were 2 Americans in the row next to me. I detected this long before I could suspect that one was African-American and one was Indian-American. It is as if the “American” aspect already overshadowed whatever ethnic or racial background I could detect.
There are very few people that are such chameleons that they can blend in (or blend out) wherever they go.
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@Solesearch and Linda
America is not my ancestoral country. My family is from Jamaica and came here in the 1970s. Honestly I don’t mind going back to Jamaica because many family members live there plus I am getting sick and tired of America. I like how Jamaica is 90% Black unlike America which is majority White.
I would go back to Jamaica if I can but the crime rate is way too high these days.
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@PhoebePrunelle
Black Americans don’t have a culture and you are hearing this from a young Caribbean(Jamaican) Black woman, 17/18 years old. Your so called culture is just another extension of the White AmeriKKKlan culture/media. When you guys were enslaved, the White slavemasters stripped Black American slaves of their culture, heritage, language and way of life.
Most of all, most Black Americans don’t know where they came from and if you don’t know where you came from, you don’t know where you are going.
I am not looking down on Black Americans as a cultural group since I am West Indian but Black Americans don’t have a culture at all.
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King of Trouble, ” I got busted as a northerner when I was down south because I put my hat on the bed. Girl straight up told me no Southern man would do that. ”
What year was this? I’m a Southener, I can tell you that is false.
I’m not saying there aren’t ways to tell if someone is an American. Accent is an obvious tell.
I’m saying if an African American was walking in a group of Africans you couldn’t/wouldn’t glance at them and be like “oh, there’s an American”. As opposed to being black in a sea of white faces.
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Linda,
“I’m giving you examples from my personal viewpoint as an islander, which you want to rationalize so that you can say, “black is black” no matter what … racism may not be your problem but classism will be.
Classism plays a Huge part in black/brown majority countries and the things that your American money can buy, is what will “out” you.”
How am I trying to rationalize black is black? What do you even mean by that? When is black not black? All I asked for is examples. You gave class as an example. I responded that all the blacks in Africa and the Caribbean aren’t poor so how is that a distinguishing feature?
Classism isn’t equal to racism especially when you are saying I’d be rich by African or Caribbean standards. I don’t think classism is a burden of the rich. Do the rich often hangout with the poor in Caribbean and African countries? They don’t here in America.
Also, if I am moving to one of these countries am I going to be getting paid American wages? Am I going to have an American cost of living?
FYI, I have no desire to move out of Arkansas let alone the U.S.
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“I am not looking down on Black Americans as a cultural group since I am West Indian but Black Americans don’t have a culture at all.”
Wow. Just goes to show bigotry and ignorance isn’t reserved for white people.
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“Solesearch,
How am I trying to rationalize black is black? What do you even mean by that? When is black not black? All I asked for is examples. You gave class as an example. I responded that all the blacks in Africa and the Caribbean aren’t poor so how is that a distinguishing feature?”
Linda says,
your statement succinctly shows what I meant when I said “you are trying to say that black is black”:
“Solesearch@ I’m saying if an African American was walking in a group of Africans you couldn’t/wouldn’t glance at them and be like “oh, there’s an American”. As opposed to being black in a sea of white faces.”
I guess from your statement, “outing” the A. American would depend on who was doing the looking. If we are to look through a white-persons “gaze”, then sure, probably to that white person, all the black people walking will look alike.
But if we are to look through the eyes of those Africans that are surrounding and walking with the A. American, your premise is that those Africans won’t be able to look tell that the A. American is a “foreigner” — to which I am saying, “yes, most times, they will be able to tell”
all black people don’t look alike and if you go to a region where the ethnic group has a distinctive look, style, body languages — you really think that they couldn’t tell you aren’t one of them?
and of course, I am speaking in general terms because there’s always exceptions and nothing is written in stone and it all depends on the country/culture and to be honest, our whole exchange has been discussing non-verbal cues which are subjective.
As you mentioned, verbal cues are also a big give away but if you can’t see how non-verbal cues can also “out” a person, then I don’t know what else to say.
it takes time to get “acclimated” to a new country, so blending in is not automatic.
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“Adeen
@PhoebePrunelle
Black Americans don’t have a culture and you are hearing this from a young Caribbean(Jamaican) Black woman, 17/18 years old. Your so called culture is just another extension of the White AmeriKKKlan culture/media. When you guys were enslaved, the White slavemasters stripped Black American slaves of their culture, heritage, language and way of life.”
Linda says,
Adeen, that’s pretty harsh! Why would you say something like that?
Black American have a long history in America and to be fair, they could say the same thing about Jamaicans and other Caribbeans. We are a blend of different races/ethnicities but the framework of our culture is British, Spanish, French, or Dutch… no escape.
We in the Caribbean are not complete pictures either due to slavery — yes, our histories are different but the Eurocentric mindset affects all of us… no matter how much of our “African” culture we have retained.
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I think that was a bit harsh from Adeen. And I don’t think it’s true either. It would be like Chinese-Americans telling Filipinos in the USA that they are so westernized and Americanized that they don’t really have any Asian culture. It’s not fair and it’s not true.
But instead of condemning the behavior as “bigotry and ignorance” maybe we can see where it might be coming from. There may be some truth in “the White slavemasters stripped Black American slaves of their culture, heritage, language and way of life. “, but I disagree that it left them without culture. It simply forced them to form a new culture based on what was left and their adjustment to the new situation and reality.
I agree with KOT that there is a definite African-American culture, one that can be found nationally, and with also various distinct regional variants. But as he suggested,
African-American culture is rather weak; it lies largely in the shadow of white American culture. What culture black Americans might have, it is largely white-washed and painted over by white history and traditions, media, and cultural models. That is one form of accommodation to a mainstream culture, but it is not the only one.
That is why I will repeat – African-Americans can consider recognizing, acknowledging, sharing and teaching a history and cultural legacy in the USA, starting with removal from Africa, through slavery, reconstruction, Jim Crow and modern post-racialism – ie, strengthen the culture, whilst still accommodating white culture (and other non-white American cultures) and forming part of the American cultural mosaic. They can form social and cultural institutions, not all of which have to be modeled on white institutions.
@Solesearch,
It is not just an “accent” which makes an American stick out. If it were just the accent, then people would ask them where they learned to speak with an American accent (maybe their English teachers were American?).
I suspect that if a black American were in a group of black Africans, there will likely be other things that make it obvious. I might say to myself (oh, there is an American in that group of Africans). I see the same thing often with Asians – Asian-Americans usu stick out like a sore thumb among Asian Asians, even if they are one in a group. It is hard to explain, but often they simply “look American”. Maybe after years of practice, they might be able to tone down their Americanness so that it wouldn’t be so obvious.
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@Solesearch
I don’t believe Americanized Black people have a sense of culture anymore. I don’t think they have a culture anymore because first of all, it is just an extension of White AmeriKKKlan culture. Second of all, they aren’t following the original culture of their ancestors and they don’t know where they are came from. Plus most of them sell their ideas such as Jazz, Rock and Rap music to Whites and it becomes theirs. To me, that is not culture, it is colonization and colonized minds at best.
I believe Black Americans would have had a sense of culture if only they kept Jazz, Rock music and Hip Hop in our communities and not let Whites steal their ideas and merge it into White mainstream media.
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“Black Americans don’t have a culture and you are hearing this from a young Caribbean(Jamaican) Black woman, 17/18 years old. Your so called culture is just another extension of the White AmeriKKKlan culture/media. When you guys were enslaved, the White slavemasters stripped Black American slaves of their culture, heritage, language and way of life.
Most of all, most Black Americans don’t know where they came from and if you don’t know where you came from, you don’t know where you are going.
I am not looking down on Black Americans as a cultural group since I am West Indian but Black Americans don’t have a culture at all.”
Perhaps it is the age which makes this claim to be up in the air.
A Lot of that “AmeriKKKlan culture” is simply diluted version of black american culture. Black americans have been the biggest contributors to american culture, that american culture that was created in American states. It is their music we hear, it is their stories mostly we hear, it is their fashion we mostly see, it is their art we mostly see, albeit in diluted white version of it. But without the creation, the impact the black americans have had on the american culture, there would be only very very pale and empty copies of couple european cultures.
Most black americans come from America. That is theirs as much as anyones. They have been cheated, exploited and used by others all the time BUT still they have created the base of the american culture.
All american music, litterally all of it, is black basically. There is no american music which has not been influenced by the blacks. Jazz, blues, rock, even country music is based on black american tradition, their songs and notes and styles. These are american creations and they are all creation of black America. Period. No culture? What is music?
Most of the pop music of the world today is solely based on black american musical tradition and music. Not one pop song is born without that influence, not in Japan or China or Europe. Even jamaican music is influenced by black american music. Reggae, rock steady and all of these have taken influences from black american tradition, if in nothing else than in the instruments of a reggae band.
Pure american story telling is based on black american story telling. Mark Twain owns everything on black story telling culture and he knew it. Use your head when you read the Adventures of Huckleberry Finn. Jim is the sharpest guy in the whole story, he is also the only real hero with any morals at all. He lets the whites, Huck included, to think he is not smart but he is. He is fooling the reader too. That is Twains way of showing the mirror for his white readers.
The american writers of 1800’s who were born and raised in US were in many cases taken care of by black nannies and servants. They teached those kids. They told them stories, fueled their imagination. And guess who teached infamous Doc Holliday to play cards so well that he later was running games? That is right. The black nanny who played with him for money and teached him that too: you will lose in card game.
Hard boiled crime stories? Suspense? Asphal jungle and urban experience? Show me one story set in urban enviroment that has no black influence in it at all. There is none. From Dashiel Hammet to James Elroy all have that influence. All of them.
Fashion? Are you kidding me?? Just look at the pictures, old photographs. You see blacks wearing suits and skirts in the late 30’s which become mainstream fashion in the 50’s. Just find it out.
There you have it. Take your racist glasses off and you see the truth. Not only there is black american culture but MOST OF THE AMERICAN CULTURE IS BASED ON BLACK AMERICAN CULTURE. If black americans do not get the credit, if they are not recognized as the creators, that is because of the racism. They have been removed from the picture. Litterally.
Heres a simple test for all of you. Watch the movie Asphalt Jungle and imagine that all the carachters are black. Yeap. Now watch the original Scareface and do the same. Watch the Waterfront and do the same. Watch Breakfast at Tiffanys and do the same. Watch the Seven year Itch and imagine Marilyn Monroe not as blond but a black bombshell and all the lead carachters as black. See? It would work with no problem at all. That is because the bases of the american story telling is black american.
What the black americans hopefully will do is recognize their tremendous impact to the culture, which impact is today world wide. A malesian speed metal guitarist does not even know how much his music is in debt to blues guys. Norwegian death metal bands do not know that the original prince of darkness in music was Robert Johnson.
Swedish crime story writer propably does not even understand that without black american story telling tradition his/hers story would be still adventures of Sherlock Holmes, tea party and bisquit murder riddles in mansions and castles of the brittish upperclasses. That is how big impact the black americans have had.
And they should be proud of that too!
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At Soulsearch this was 1993. These was down in either Harrison, Georgia or Huntsville, Alabama. I can’t remember which one because I have done work in both and have gone to camp in one. I took flight school in the other. Still, when I was down their I got busted all the time for being a Northerner way before even opening my mouth. “You must be a northerner.” Even whites from down south busted me but with this key phrase. You aren’t like the blacks from around here.
I don’t know if you have been out of the country but if you have a college degree, you can teach ESL. You can even do it around Africa. I highly suggest it if you are young and have enough time. As much as a loved travel I always king of yearn to come back home. “I do not really like mayonnaise on pizza, or many of the toppings I had while in Japan but I got use to it. I missed philly cheese steaks and how we speak about politics. In the way I had to deal with being the representative of black culture when I was kid, being the only black person in my schools, I have to do that with American culture in different countries. When I was in Italy the vendors would scream hey Americano. Then they would say I knew you weren’t African. How I will never fully know, but my African friends know right away also you are American. They say it is by the way I walk, how much distances I have when talking to another person. The longer I was around the more people knew I was American. At one bar I was known strictly as the American. The owner was from Kenya and he was great we had a lot of laughs but the first time we meet his first question, are you American? He also said he could tell by how I came into the bar. Now it might be that humans have a detector to let them know hey this person isn’t from where I am from.
I might have been something that we developed to keep us safe as in stranger, danger. I don’t know but I use to be able to tell European whites by their shoes and backpacks. However, think of the poor Canadian who forever has to go around with the maple leaf somewhere around them. Why, because Canadian culture is overshadowed by the U.S.
However if you have grew up in the States you have learned how to interact with the people around you. Same goes for those who have grown up in their native country or any particular country.
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Argh grammar, please read there instead of their in “Still, when I was down their I got busted all the time for being a Northerner way before even opening my mouth”
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@ Sam,
Thank you for your heartfelt tributes to black Americans and their ancestors for the creation of a distinctive American culture. We need more of that kind of attitude.
However, I think that the most that any group of people can do is “contribute” to a culture and “impact” it. The black American culture was also, in large part, formed by white culture, specifically by creating an environment (eg, slavery, sharecropping, even black ghettos) where black culture can trace its roots and where its culture was *nurtured* to develop into what it became.
Still, when I first stepped into Australia, I immediately felt that it was an Anglo-origin country and it felt VERY MUCH like North America (in most ways, more like Canada than the USA per se). One can tell that they have the similar cultural origin. I am not sure how much Australia was impacted by black America (I am sure to some extent, at least indirectly), but by and large, it felt very similar, and I suspect that the reason that the USA and Australia are very similar is not solely due to the cultural creation of black Americans. In fact, much of the reason the USA is different from Australia is indeed the impact of black Americans and the African diaspora. But despite that, they fell much more similar to each other than different — and it has to do with their English origin.
One thing that they share are things like the legal system — both have the basis in English Common law. Beyond that, there is even the history of its language – – stuff like the King James version of the Bible and Shakespeare came straight from England. They also share, to a large extent, ideas about race.
I think the effective way to establish a positive identity with black American culture might not be to simply insist that American culture IS black culture (In that case, I am not sure I could feel proud about that), but to nurture it in spite of white culture. For example, why does one have to wait until white Americans adopt some cultural aspect originating among blacks (ie, white wash it) before one thinks it is worthy to develop or celebrate? This is even more important for history. Blacks (and other non-whites) need to identify their own heroes also — there is no need to wait until white people recognize a black person as a hero before they can be a hero.
My history books omitted Frederick Douglass, W.E. Dubois, Thurgood Marshall and Malcolm X (not to mention Medgar Evers, Emmett Till, etc.), as though they are not worthy to be heroes as white people did not deem them so. They selected people like MLK, Jr. and Rosa Parks (and before them, Booker T., George Washington Carver, Crispus Attucks, Benjamin Banneker, Phyllis Wheatley) possibly because they help put white people in a good light at least not put them in a bad one.
Why not celebrate and honor Malcolm X – his birthday and anniversary of his death should be as important as MLK, Jr.
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@jefe:
Naturally I did not mean the whole culture in the widest terms or the structure of society or the system but the arts etc. But many aspects of the culture are either black or have their origins in black american culture. Naturally the different white cultures influenced on black americans too.
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Both White and Black is in all our heritage, just as suggested in prior blog posts:
We are also partially mestizo, native American and Asian and Pacific Islander.
In that way, the USA shares some commonalities with Brazil. They speak Portuguese, but they are not Portugal.
But I strongly suspect Abagond has changed his attitude a bit about this topic in the past few years, thinking the gulf is widening. But I don’t think it is — it is just that whites are trying to get people to become white instead of trying to assimilate into something different.
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Sam , thanks for saving me a lot of typing…
You seem to not be getting some things, Jefe…black American culture has influenced the world…including Afro pop
I had the same impresion about Brazil as you did about Australia….
Adeen is saying Americans dont know their culture, not that they dont have one
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A lot of what American White culture is imitating other minority groups. Especially African-Americans. White Americans don’t have much of a culture themselves.
If Blacks and other minorities weren’t here, the country would be quite Vanilla.
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What makes you think I didn’t get that. I fully recognize that.
I have been to Brazil 3 times. It reminded me of the USA also, in a different way. Maybe that is one reason I like the place (and not quite as crazy about Australia).
I never said Americans don’t have a culture.
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llup, America is not really that old and there really is a blob of people mixing around in it. What culture is used when explaining white culture goes back to the Greeks but talks Roman than British, then European selected countries. However African Americans do not have those mixtures of ancient African cultures to pull from because they have been separated from African History. In fact most of African American culture comes from GRBE spoken about above because we are saturated in this culture. I know if you are American you have gone through social studies and history. Can you name me two African historical Kings that you have study? Can you tell me any great wars that don’t included Europeans throughout Africa? Why did Alexander the Great avoid a certain area and if you know what was the history of that particular region, person, or group?
It is probably not until you were much older that you started to learn about Africa. Which meant during you more malleable years you were learning about Europe. the 1600’s till now is not really ancient history which means yes our culture is still young and not quite as defined as others. How much more is for an ethnic group that had been enslaved then kept for their history?
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edit: “kept from their history?”
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Linda,
“But if we are to look through the eyes of those Africans that are surrounding and walking with the A. American, your premise is that those Africans won’t be able to look tell that the A. American is a “foreigner” — to which I am saying, “yes, most times, they will be able to tell”
all black people don’t look alike and if you go to a region where the ethnic group has a distinctive look, style, body languages — you really think that they couldn’t tell you aren’t one of them?
and of course, I am speaking in general terms because there’s always exceptions and nothing is written in stone and it all depends on the country/culture and to be honest, our whole exchange has been discussing non-verbal cues which are subjective.
As you mentioned, verbal cues are also a big give away but if you can’t see how non-verbal cues can also “out” a person, then I don’t know what else to say.”
My premise isn’t that they won’t be able to tell. My premise is that the big visual cues that someone is different such as skin color, dress, and hairstyles won’t matter in many black countries because they are the same. Of course, if I travel to a region where American style clothes aren’t commonplace then I’d standout wearing them. But didn’t we narrow the question to places where African-American/American hairstyles and dress are commonplace? Which seems to be most places. Or most places people want to move to. If you’re a person going about your day today and not just standing around people watching for the most part you wouldn’t notice an African American in a sea of Africans or Caribbeans.
You say they can? An African American would stand out like a sore thumb just like if they were walking in a sea of white faces? Ok. That’s fine, but how? Body language? Don’t you have to be focused on a person to notice their body language? If you’re just scanning a crowd what body language would mark a black person as African American? Or not even just scanning a crowd. I’m genuinely curious. I’m not against what you’re saying. I just want to know how. If you need to stop speaking generally to answer that’s fine. What’s a specific example?
Of course, all black people don’t look the same. I don’t think black people look the same within ethnic groups so I don’t know about this distinctive look stuff? Do Jamaicans or Nigerians look distinctively different from African Americans. I don’t think there is a distinctive African American look. I don’t think we look distinctively different from Nigerians or Jamaicans to be specific. Do we look distinctively different from your ethnic group? If so, how?
Like I said I’m not against what you are saying. I’m curious. I just want to know how.
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King of Trouble, that northern/southern thing was probably more class and education than anything. Especially with the white people. They were probably saying you act white.
I’m married and my husband would not be happy if I went galavanting off around the world without him. I wouldn’t be happy either. I have been to Tokyo. It was a cool trip, but it was very Americanized. I think the big culture difference might have been more big city vs small town. The people were very reserved. As opposed to in the south even shy people are very welcoming, usually. Everyone was polite though. So not big city as in rude, pushy people. We are trying to decided where we’d like to visit next, but that might be a while since we are buying a house and thinking of starting a family. Any suggestions?
” How I will never fully know, but my African friends know right away also you are American. They say it is by the way I walk, how much distances I have when talking to another person. ”
See these are things I was looking for. However someone has to be paying attention to you to notice these things. If you’re black in a majority white country your skin color is what would draw attention where ever you went.
Although I live in small town, it has people from all over: the caribbean, india, east asia, europe, africa, and people from everywhere in the U.S. Typically, the way I know someone isn’t American raised is their accent. Living in a diverse environment teaches you not to assume, but I’m interested in the assumptions people make about what makes someone American.
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@Linda,
Well i stuck out, but not because people thought i was a Black American–they thought i was a local girl who hadn’t learned manners (wearing sneakers and khakis)…so after a few weeks of put downs, lol, some of the Sisters finally agreed to take me shopping and get fitted for tailored slacks and skirts. Some of the other ladies would strike up a conversation with me in Kiswahili and burst into wild laughter when i said “Hello”. My Tanzanian friend said it was because they thought i was a local.
I think people get confused about not just Black American culture, but Black culture in general as if it exists in a box. Sure there are observable markers, but i am going to go as far as saying MANY things (nerdiness, sci-fi conventions, purple dyed hair) are a part of Black culture. 🙂
The locals viewed Black Americans as “African”. Many Tanzanians that i was around only described all Blacks as Africans in very formal settings like weddings and parties. Of course they will point out differences in Black Americans but usually about language and home keeping.
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Adeen i am going to try very hard to be patient with you on this because i believe this is what you really deem true…
Why should any naysayer get to say that Black Americans or any Black person in this world do not have a distinct culture?
Here is the problem that i see with your statement–Black culture no matter where it is being expressed in the world is not just about music, festivals, elaborate clothing or preparations of certain food…
Black culture (no matter where it is) has many, many subtle things…
It is the way one laughs, the tone of the voice when the person is happy or sad, various friendship and romantic partner codes, the way business is conducted and turning just about any mundane activity from a mere description to a narrative or story that will be cemented in the mind for years to come.
I just do not like it when people assume the worst about African/Black Americans as being somehow inferior to all other Black communities in this world. It is wrong, gross fallacious and a flat out lie.
Case in point: i had the utmost pleasure of meeting the rap group Three Six Mafia at a college event and despite the image and violent music they sell–in REAL life, they were the MOST respectful, humble men that i have ever meet.
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Adeen, cultures aren’t created in a vacuum. Do Jamaicans not have a culture because reggae is co-opted by whites? Do Asians not have a culture because Kung Fu and Karate have been made mainstream and incorporated in other cultures. If that is your definition of culture, the not many people have a culture.
Also African American culture is a lot more than music. And our music is a lot more than what you see on tv. The best african american music can be heard on Sunday mornings in small churches.The only thing I miss about church.
You should immerse yourself in the things you like. If you don’t like mainstream music, there are plenty of non-mainstream artists out there for you to enjoy.
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@Solesearch
As a young person, I will admit to not being able to relate to Black American girls my age. They don’t seem to like me at all. At school, they give me mean or dirty looks in the hallway or talk about me without knowing me. It hurts
The only Black female friend that I have is of Caribbean descent like me but she is Trinidadian.
And once I thought about it, you are right. AAs have an unique culture as well as other people but I have a hard time relating to Black Americans in my age group.
I apologize if I hurt anyone’s feelings on here and if I sounded too condescending. I don’t think I am better than you or anyone on here.
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“solesearch@,
My premise isn’t that they won’t be able to tell. My premise is that the big visual cues that someone is different such as skin color, dress, and hairstyles won’t matter in many black countries because they are the same. Of course, if I travel to a region where American style clothes aren’t commonplace then I’d standout wearing them. But didn’t we narrow the question to places where African-American/American hairstyles and dress are commonplace?”
Linda says,
Let me be clear. I am not saying that black Americans have a specific phenotype “look” that marks them as “American”…I am not saying that your facial features marks you as “American”…black Americans are a “mixed” group of people and that includes a mixture of different African ethnic groups.
so, it’s not a solitary look that defines you.
when I say Ethnic groups, I am not speaking about “Nationality” because those are 2 different things. There is no “Nigerian” look… because Nigeria has many different Ethnic groups. I know some people tend not to believe that specific Ethnic groups don’t have specific traits — my thoughts on that topic, I’ll have to get back to you later. (pressed for time) so I will say this:
I am saying that non-verbal cues can mark you as a “foreigner”, that you are “not local” and most local people will assume you to be American or British (especially if you are in a tourist area)
and of course, all of this is a generalization because there are so many variables to consider, depending on city/region you’re in. (such as being in a more affluent or poor side of town)
Also, when I say the things you do “outs” you, I am not talking about quick moments in time or quick glances … I am referring to just ordinary actions that can be interpreted by observers. (lots of nosy people in this world, especially in the tourist areas where there are individuals who target “foreigners” to make a living)
I’ll use Montego Bay, Jamaica as an example:
Ex. 1: you mentioned walking in a crowd downtown: because you don’t live there, most likely you will take a taxi to go downtown. As you get out from the taxi, people will notice you if the taxi stops at an unmarked, designated stop where most tourists get dropped off.
Because he dropped you there, casual observers will think you are “not local” because there is a taxi location where the locals typically go (but you’d have to be local to know that). This drop off will also tip off the local “tour guides” to approach you on the street and offer to show you Montego Bay for a small fee.
Ex. 2: in Jamaica, we drive on the other side (left) like the UK. When I am driving from MoBay airport to my home, and if I see a car in front of me that is moving slower than everyone else and “refuses” to pass cars in front of him (because he would have to go into the opposite direction lane), my first thought is that the driver is a “tourist” because it’s common to speed and pass in Jamaica (that’s why we also have so many fatal accidents)
I applaud anyone who visits Jamaica and has the balls to rent a car and drive; I can imagine that it’s intimidating to (a) drive on the wrong side (b) having to deal with the nuts constantly coming at you going 80 -100 from the other side.
it’s simple non-verbal actions like these that I am talking about. Like I said, they’re generalizations but more often than not, hold true.
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@Phoebprunelle
I don’t think I am better than you. I only replied once to your comment, that is it. I am not a troll. I have been commenting on here for a while. I just have a hard time relating to Black American females my age. They don’t like me at all.
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@ phoebeprunelle
Dang u got to meet three six mafia, now that i’m thinking about it where them mofos at? the last song I heard was lollipop. lol I did kinda like stay fly though.
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correction:
I know some people tend to not believe that specific Ethnic groups do have specific traits or looks
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Solesearch,
don’t get me wrong. I think that black Americans should go to the Caribbean or Africa, and actually get to meet the people outside of the tourist resorts, learn the cultures, even invest or form business relationships.
I did not want to get stuck on this topic of “looking black American” — that was not my intention in my original comment.
I was just pointing out that the idea of getting away from white racism is a good one but it doesn’t solve everything and that by relocating, you will be taking up “different -isms” — such as “classism”
I do find it to be a relief to go home and relax and get away from the craziness, so I truly understand black Americans feeling that they need a break from the racist over and undertones in the USA. Everywhere has its upside and downside.
Anyway, here is an article I found about black Americans moving to Ghana, which touches, a little bit, on what I was trying to say about non-verbal cues:
“Holloway said that if African-Americans are willing to relocate and go back to Ghana, many of the principalities there are willing to provide free land for them to invest in businesses, homes and become part of the economy.
The word obruni, meaning foreigner, is a term that can be used to refer to African-Americans and other tourists in Ghana. Because many tourists in Ghana are white, the word obruni has also led some locals to associate it with white people. In reality, however, there is no word for white people in the Ghanaian languages, says Marvin Boateng, who is Ghanaian and vice president of CSUN’s African Student Organization.
During his second visit to Ghana, Holloway had an interesting experience in a Ghanaian village called Konongo where he was confronted by a heap of young children.
They ran up beside him shouting “obruni! Obruni!” Puzzled, Holloway turned to his interpreter and asked for a translation. He was told they were yelling “white man! White man! There goes the white man,” Holloway says.
He asked the interpreter to explain to the children that he was not a white man, but that he was African-American. The interpreter obliged, but to no success. One child walked up to Holloway and said that was not true.
“He said look at yourself, you have the same clothing as a white man, you talk like a white man, you walk like a white man, you have money like a white man and therefore you are a white man,” Holloway said.
He calls the experience “deductive logic 101.” No matter how hard they tried to explain to the child that Holloway was African-American, he would not believe them because he didn’t see my color, he saw my culture, he said.”
http://sundial.csun.edu/2006/05/atriptoafricabringsmorethansouvenirs-2/
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If I did pick a country to return to I would pick Ghana. I did have the pleasure of visiting for a month as a graduation gift from college. And the commentary regarding AA folk sticking out like a soar thumb is correct. We stayed with family friends ( who were diplomats). So the natives would flock to us especially the children. When I visited Elmina castle, the children would ask us for sponsorship etc. upon exiting our car. Beautiful country, Ghana. Seriously keeping my eye on various ventures there.
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Linda,
That last article sums it up. It is all in your culture. I would add that culture is demonstrated not so much in what you wear, your accent, your hairstyle or what you eat. It is in how those things come together. The best way to answer Sulsearch’s question is to say this…”how do you know someone is not American?” If you take time to really think about it you will start to see the things you take for granted as being normal that are really part of being American. I also believe that the tendency to think that Americans of African descent are somehow not representative of American culture is ironically part of that same American culture. It is a way of thinking that is developed in you as your absorb your native culture. Again, just my opinion.
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I’m an African who for much of my life lived – and lives – in the continent. For people who want to visit Africa either for short or for extended periods, I suggest that they read a post I wrote a while ago which can be seen as “a (tentative) primer about Africa for starters”:
That post and a few others which follow it, give a summarized overview and a few guidelines of how to look at the continent.
The image of Africa, Africans and their descendants worldwide is much damaged and some efforts are really needed to break stereotypes. As a friend of mine often says, “we Blacks are a defamed race, like a family that were united in the past but today, its members, after a relentlessly campaign of defamation and put-downs by others against them, begin to mistrust each other and see one another through the very lens of their foes”. I’ve seen this before and when I read through some posts at this thread I can’t escape the feeling of an undertone of Africa bashing, even if I understand that at the context of this thread some apparently more informed individuals are trying to advise others to be aware of the difficulties of an exercise of relocation to Africa.
Me too, I would tell people that when pondering in relocating to a different place (continent, country, city, etc) one should think previously with maximum attention and care. Not only if you are thinking in moving to Africa. I remember many years ago myself advising a German woman who asked me what I thought about she moving to Africa. The woman had, what seemed to me, a romanticized and somewhat naive idea about the continent. I retorted: before you go to any place there, learn as much as possible about the place, go there for a short period (at least a few months would be ideal), review thoroughly whatever impressions you get there and then decide. Otherwise you can become victim of over-expectations and end up disappointed not only with the place but with yourself. Similarly I advised a younger brother who wanted badly to move to Portugal (Europe). There are many things that can go wrong – not only economic issues or material comfort or cultural adaption to a new way of life – and therefore you should definitively try to make a short move first before the definitive one.
More realistic is to go to a country in Africa as a tourist or as an expatriate worker for a few months or years. This, I definitively would suggest and wanted to see many Black Americans doing. Where I live (Maputo), I see – and I’ve seen through many years – many Europeans and Latin Americans to come and remain here to work, and therefore I see no particular reason why Black Americans cannot do the same. Some of those (mostly White) “visitors” remained indefinitely (forever?) in the country. Some of them even married local women or men. And most returned to their home countries or went to other places. I would expect the same to happen to Black American “visitors”.
A massive relocation of people from one place on Earth to another I don’t see as feasible or desirable nowadays. The days of grand migrations seem to be over. What is moving now are “civilization patterns”, so to speak, which change radically in relatively short periods of time, the ways of life in different locations on Earth: examples are the recent urbanization and grow of modern cities in the Middle East, the rapid industrialization and westernization in the Asian tigers (and more recently the emergence of new true World Powers in China and India).
In Africa, too, we watch such changes albeit with different tempos in different countries or places. But as a general trend, today, not few urban areas in Africa are becoming increasingly hospitable for Westerners (including Black Americans) and therefore to go there for a relatively short period of time (up to a few years) is not such a big deal.
Maybe you want to look at some pictures which show how things look at modern urban life in African (OK, a certain Africa; Africa is very diverse!)
Maputo (Mozambique):
Urban landscape – http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1446879&page=4
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1446879&page=5
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1586156&page=7
Ways of life – http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1586156&page=3
Video-clip – (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=373682379318444&set=vb.243802292315574&type=2&permPage=1)
Lagos (Nigeria): – http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1423468&page=159
I have purposely excluded any reference to the Republic of South Africa, a country that remains a case apart in Africa as the most developed one (can be compared with Argentina, Chile or Brazil in South America) and also one where the recent Black politic power coexist in a dialectical relationship with the old White economic power. It’s a beautiful country worth visiting and stay there for a while. The material comfort you can have there, can match what you have in America and some vices of White domination have been already purged from social life, so you must not be bothered at thinking of them. In my first stay there in 1992, I remember walking in a street in the city of Pretoria and be called “Kaffir” (similar to American n*gger) by a group of White youths in a car. That was in the last years of the Apartheid system. Never again a similar episode happened in my frequent stays there for workshops, seminars, short courses and the like. That means that, in the environment of real Black politic power, White folks understand quite clearly which are the social rules and etiquette to follow and avoid entering in public confrontational situations with Black individuals either native or foreign. And that respect extends to other aspects of life. Certainly nobody would humiliate you when you decide to go shopping anywhere there.
I know that some people think that political power is not yet translated in economic power for Black Africans. Putting aside the fact that different dynamics are at play in different African countries my comment on this is that it takes time to reach that goal, but things are moving decidedly in that direction (increased Black economic power).
First, you have a growing Black middle class (that is increasingly affluent too) in almost all African societies. Take a look at following video-clip: ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyNztfyen7Q)
Second, some indirect signals validate the perception of the same trend: if you asked who was the richest Black individual worldwide (excluding politicians and drug dealers) at the year 1990 or 2000 (see http://www.therichest.com/nation/wealthiest-african-americans/) probably you would got the name of some Black American entrepreneur (years before, maybe some athlete or entertainer). Today if you put the same question clearly the answer points to a handful of Black African individuals from a few countries (see http://www.forbes.com/sites/mfonobongnsehe/2013/03/05/the-black-billionaires-2013/).
This does not mean that having billionaires is necessary a good thing in itself for a given society, but if you have billionaires in a country that shows that your domestic economy has already grown to be large enough to contain such billionaire(s) and therefore that is a sign of the growth of African economies (India and China do have too their share of billionaires as a result of their recent economic growth). It hints also to the fact that the Black elite in such societies has already be able to use its political power in their deals with the financial and technological power of the multinationals (big oil companies in Nigeria, for example), to extract substantive profits for themselves. Billionaires and other entrepreneurs who come next to them in the economic “food chain” are also important because it is from within their ranks – or from their heirs – that will appear the Black Fords, Morgans or Bill Gates of tomorrow and I think the Black race – as a whole – needs them too. Like other racial groups they will probably be a force helping the fight for high-level Black employment in different societies and indirectly fight racist practices from other racial groups. Just a thought…
Therefore, a miserabilist image of the continent should be taken with reservations. I have no doubt that such trends will consolidate in the years to come.
Some posters have argued why Black Americans (as a people) should put the focus in staying in their homeland and fight for their rights instead of entertaining the idea of relocating elsewhere. I agree with that. And I could add: they will remain anyway, no advice or suggestion needed for that! But instead of focus on real or supposed “deficits” in prospective target countries (African countries) as the main reason why they should stay, I would prefer to argue that they should stay because this (America) is the land that their ancestors helped to build and defend with so much suffering, so much hardship. To quit that place would be almost equivalent to disrespect that journey of struggles that their grandfathers and grandmothers went through!
I see the relationship between White and Black America as similar to a marriage. White America is the husband and Black America the wife. Now, and it already happened before, this relationship has become an abusive one where the husband often shows little respect for his wife. At times the wife’s emotions almost erupt: anger, despair, like love turned hate! And then the temptation, the thoughts of quitting everything seem almost overwhelming: I want my divorce, right now!
But as a friend looking to her plight from a distance, I think my duty is to advise her to think carefully: to remember how long their relationship has been there, to remember how much she has given from herself, with sweat and blood, to build their house, to attain the material wealth they have amassed together, etc. So I would say to her: don’t quit, stay firm, fight for your rights, for more respect!
(TO CONTINUE…)
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Linda,
“I was just pointing out that the idea of getting away from white racism is a good one but it doesn’t solve everything and that by relocating, you will be taking up “different -isms” — such as “classism””
I guess I don’t understand the need for people to point this out like African Americans are idiots. I don’t think anyone is expecting a utopia. Like I keep pointing out the desire for some people to leave the u.s. is to get away from the all encompassing white racism. Not classism or anything else. We know classism exists everywhere.
So what’s the point in saying that?
Are you saying classism in Africa or the Caribbean is worse than racism and classism in America? So it’s not a good trade off.
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@Solesearch
I think sometimes those other things might strike one first before skin colour.
For example, Brazil is technically a majority white country (at least in large parts of the country, like in Sao Paulo and areas further south), and when I was there, it wasn’t usually skin colour that impressed me first when I saw people. It is a myriad of other things. Maybe it it because so many people look multiracial, I couldn’t really be sure what racial background they were. I would notice things like what they were wearing or what they were doing. This is true in a lot of countries. You would probably find it in Trinidad, the Seychelles, Mauritius, Philippines even maybe Australia.
It is true also to some extent in the USA. But the Americanisms sometimes are unmistakeable, even if people are racially ambiguous. And I am not talking about accent necessarily.
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@ munu aka Bantu
Thank you very much for the good advice and good information.
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“Solesearch@
I guess I don’t understand the need for people to point this out like African Americans are idiots. I don’t think anyone is expecting a utopia. Like I keep pointing out the desire for some people to leave the u.s. is to get away from the all encompassing white racism. Not classism or anything else. We know classism exists everywhere.
So what’s the point in saying that? Are you saying classism in Africa or the Caribbean is worse than racism and classism in America? So it’s not a good trade off.”
Linda says,
Solesearch, what is your problem? I don’t think I said anything to offend you, so I don’t know why you are taking this tone with me. Our entire discussion consists of you trying to “check” me every time I say something.
Did you read anywhere in comments where I was putting anyone down or I implied that classism is worse, better, or on the same level than white racism in the US.
Did I imply that you or anyone else is stoopid and doesn’t know anything? — no I did not…. so why would you make this comment and ask me that last question and come at me from that angle.
Please don’t put words in my mouth… my mouth is big enough and I can speak for myself.
I think my comments were pretty clear and did not imply anything negative but you seem to want to attach significance and meaning to my words to give them “life”
I can only speak in general terms and My experiences obviously aren’t ‘gospel’ and I’ve already said that and I thought I made that clear.
and I can give my opinion all day long, and at the end of the day, I very much am aware that someone is going to have a different view and experience– isn’t that the Point of coming onto a blog and sharing with other people.
such as phoebeprunelle telling us about her experience in Tanzania. Someone else might come in and tell us that they’ve had a different experience in Tanzania than hers…and that’s all good too because one doesn’t invalidate the other.
so, the way I see it is, Either you’re talking to me in good faith or you have a problem with me because it seems that whatever I say, you Choose to say or see some kind of “fault” or something “wrong” with my comments because not once, have I said something offensive to you or anyone else on this topic.
I truly don’t believe you give 2 sh’ts about my opinions, so I am really surprised you’re still asking for them.
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“munu aka Bantu,
I see the relationship between White and Black America as similar to a marriage. White America is the husband and Black America the wife. Now, and it already happened before, this relationship has become an abusive one where the husband often shows little respect for his wife. At times the wife’s emotions almost erupt: anger, despair, like love turned hate!”
Linda says,
I loved your analogy.
you hit the nail on the head in a very interesting way which has much truth in it.
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The parallels between domestic violence and racism (and colonialism) are pretty striking. The standard advice for victims of domestic violence is to get out while you still can – that your partner is unlikely ever to reform, that even better behaviour on his part is itself almost always a manipulation and not a sign of lasting, inner change.
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“phoebeprunelle @
Well i stuck out, but not because people thought i was a Black American–they thought i was a local girl who hadn’t learned manners (wearing sneakers and khakis)…so after a few weeks of put downs, lol, some of the Sisters finally agreed to take me shopping and get fitted for tailored slacks and skirts.”
Linda says,
That’s funny 🙂
How long did it take for you to learn the language? How long did you live in Tanzania and what other countries did you see?
If you have the time, what advice would you give for people who might want to go to Africa to visit or try to work as an “expat”? What are some things to consider when choosing which region to go to?
As I said, I’ve never been to the Continent and I am interested in visiting. I have a good friend from Sierra Leone but I am more interested in seeing Ghana or Morocco.
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Linda, I don’t have a problem with you. Only with what I pointed out in my earlier comment.
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Linda, some of my annoyance at Adeen’s comments more than likely bled over into our discussion. My bad.
However, my questions and curiosity about your opinion were meant seriously.
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Solesearch,
which to me seems like you’re trying to make a mountain out of a molehill
because I never said, implied, or stated that “classism in Africa or the Caribbean is worse than racism and classism in America?”
classism and racism is like apples and oranges, so not sure why you are trying to draw me into an unnecessary comparison based on implications I did not make.
I”ve re-read my statement:
and those words seem pretty clear to me..
which to me, my statement implies that ‘anyone planning to live in another country will be “putting on a different hat” than the one they’re used to… no where in my statement did I say “my hat is better than your hat”
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Jefe,
“For example, Brazil is technically a majority white country (at least in large parts of the country, like in Sao Paulo and areas further south), and when I was there, it wasn’t usually skin colour that impressed me first when I saw people. It is a myriad of other things. Maybe it it because so many people look multiracial, I couldn’t really be sure what racial background they were. I would notice things like what they were wearing or what they were doing. This is true in a lot of countries. You would probably find it in Trinidad, the Seychelles, Mauritius, Philippines even maybe Australia.
It is true also to some extent in the USA. But the Americanisms sometimes are unmistakeable, even if people are racially ambiguous. And I am not talking about accent necessarily.”
Brazil might be majority white but from your comment it seems you were around a lot of multiracial people.
So you’re saying in a highly heterogenous group of people skin color doesn’t stand out? I agree with that.
A former boss of mine( white guy) visited Brazil on a business trip and the first thing he said when he got back was how brown everyone was and how badly he stood out.
Which Americanisms are unmistakeable?
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“Solesearch,
However, my questions and curiosity about your opinion were meant seriously.”
Linda says,
Ok, apology accepted and I will seriously answer you question.
(and I stress, this truly depends on what country, region, etc because variables for everything)
To me, racism and classism are 2 different things and as I’m sure you know, there is racism in the Caribbean and Africa as well (no escape), except the not all the perpetrators would not be called “white” in America.
My opinion, in the overt absence of white racism in black or brown government- run country, classism affects society the most because the gulf between haves and have-nots is so very wide (wider than in the US or UK) and can sometimes impact quality of life for everyone.
Depending on what someone’s expectations are when looking to move somewhere, I think, will dictate how well they deal with having people think you are “walking” ATM because as a foreigner, they believe money is no object for you.
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Linda, classism isn’t a different hat. Black people deal with classism in America.
Based on your statements African Americans would be considered rich in most majority black countries. Classism isn’t a problem for rich people.
Your comments seem unnecessarily negative.
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but I also want to stress the good points about going to a black or brown country, such as,
not having to deal with overt white racism.
Having doors open to you much more easily because people look at you as a “positive” influence and as someone who can make a difference in their city/ region
Even though everyone has preconceived ideas and, people will still see you as an individual and not a representative and spokesperson for an entire group of people.
I also noticed that foreign countries seem to be a “bonding” event…white Americans seemed so very appreciate when they discover another “American” in a town where English is not spoken. The whole “black-white” thing goes out the window when it seems like it is an “us vs. them” situation.
(when I was in school in Germany, the Germans in the town I lived in did not really like the American students and the white Americans exchange students had a hard time dealing with that. They clung to the black American exchange students like a life-line)
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Abagond,
“The parallels between domestic violence and racism (and colonialism) are pretty striking. The standard advice for victims of domestic violence is to get out while you still can – that your partner is unlikely ever to reform, that even better behaviour on his part is itself almost always a manipulation and not a sign of lasting, inner change.”
The difference is that racists aren’t begging black people to stay.
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Linda,
“Depending on what someone’s expectations are when looking to move somewhere, I think, will dictate how well they deal with having people think you are “walking” ATM because as a foreigner, they believe money is no object for you.”
So you’re saying this makes African Americans that aren’t actually rich targets for violence?
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“Solesearch,
Linda, classism isn’t a different hat. Black people deal with classism in America.
Based on your statements African Americans would be considered rich in most majority black countries. Classism isn’t a problem for rich people.
Your comments seem unnecessarily negative.”
Linda says,
only to you, Solesearch…my opinion, racism and classism is not the same, and according to you, black Americans are dealing with 2 separate issues.
By relocating to a majority black country, you are dealing with 1…except with “classism”, black Americans go from being at the bottom, to being on the top… and you get to deal with everything that comes with it– good and bad.
So where’s the negativity?
and if you cant’ see the issues someone who is considered “rich” would have in a country where 75-90%% of the population is working class and how that perception of you “having money” may or may not affect “how” you live, then I don’t know what to say.
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“Solesearch,
So you’re saying this makes African Americans that aren’t actually rich targets for violence?”
Linda says,
Anyone who is considered to have something that someone else does not have, is a target for robbery/violence. Happens in the USA a lot – People get robbed all the time over foolishness.
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@Solesearch
“The difference is that racists aren’t begging black people to stay.”
I don’t know about that. The way some racists say ” why don’t you go back to Africa”, is very similar to how abusive partners tell their victims that they’d be nothing without them. If you read the Stormfront forums now and again, you’ll come across a few racists who don’t understand why we aren’t grateful to them for slavery since we winded up being “the richest negroes in the world”. They might say that America is a White man’s country and should stay that way *cough* Bill O’Rielly *cough*, but they dread the possibility of taking that idea to heart and creating a country fro Black men and women.
If they wanted us gone, they’d have killed us long ago. Without Blacks, Whites couldn’t exist, and the identities of racist Whites would be empty and meaningless. They need us to fuel the fires of the Melting Pot
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*Dread the possibility of us taking that idea to heart and creating a country for Black men and women*
The moral of the story is: don’t type one-handed for more than a sentence
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“Solesearch, Linda@ “Depending on what someone’s expectations are when looking to move somewhere, I think, will dictate how well they deal with having people think you are “walking” ATM because as a foreigner, they believe money is no object for you.”
So you’re saying this makes African Americans that aren’t actually rich targets for violence?”
Linda says,
No, what I am saying (and obviously not clear enough) is that you will be “nickeled and dimed” to death because everyone will assume you can afford it.
since when should truth be avoided because it might be perceived as “negativity”
Here is an article I found on a blog written by Expats living in Jamaica:
“Jamaica has a different spiritual, economical and social reality than where you are moving from. There is an economic and racial class system that is now fading but is still a harsh reality to many whether we like it or not. I’ve told everyone for years… Jamaica can be the best and the worst.
1.You will meet the absolutely best people in the world as well as rub shoulders with murderers.
2.Wonderful sunny days to holiday in or scorch while trying to work.
3.Tasty, delightful foods, but foreign tastes and treats are priced for the rich or tourist budgets.
4.Traffic: like a video game, which is a great adrenaline rush for the adventurous, or shear horror.
5.Very friendly…. from a distance, suspicious of motives because everyone wants something. Society is extremely transactional based.
6.Close commute to the US but a million miles away in opportunities.
7.Moral standards are continually challenged, sexually, financially, and lawfully. Erosion to the lowest denominator is common unless fought for.
Offshore, Jamaicans adapt to their new environments but often when they return home, they also return to Jamaican mindsets, so they seem to radically change from the day they land ‘at home’.
Hired help is economical but quality is questionable; theft is always an issue because of dire needs.
Security and safety must be addressed or property and health will be endangered. Naiveté is rewarded with grief. This is not fear based just reality based. You make yourself a target if you are the only place in the neighborhood without grills
http://transitionsunshine.info/2008/11/expat-observations-shared/
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and here is another article from an expat that seems more upbeat about living in Jamaica as a foreigner.
“I’ve now been living in Jamaica for 11 months.
I was having a drink at the Hilton Hotel in Kingston pool bar earlier this week, and my visiting guest commented that I appeared really comfortable in Jamaica. I asked why he made this observation, and he said I ‘beamed’ when talking about work and living and he confessed that as an occasional short term visitor that he found Jamaica still a very intimidating place.
So here are some observations since actually living in Jamaica (long list, so I will pick a few)
1) Jamaica is LOUD – very LOUD. And loudness is a good thing – it’s a sign that people are enjoying themselves
2) Finding places depends on asking people – as you get closer, stop and ask for directions. People are friendly and helpful. Please do not rely on the maps or non-existent sign posts or street name signs, just stop every so often and check with people on the road
3) Stop and give lifts to hitchhikers – its standard practice. And don’t be offended when they ask you for money the assumption is “you are white” and likely a lot wealthier than the folks you are giving a lift to.
5) Don’t haggle too hard – average income is $3-4,000 USD and everybody needs to get by
6) Use the street vendors, especially the roadside fruit vendors in the country. You get to taste and buy some unique fruits like Star- apples and Sour-Sop. Ask to taste the fruit first as they will always oblige
17) Meet and greet everyone as an equal – don’t ignore anyone (from the grocery store baggar to the sales assistant, from the helper to the prime minister). Be clear and direct in all initial interactions and enjoy the subsequent friendliness and openness of everyone you meet. It’s an island, so many people often know each other or are related.”
http://transitionsunshine.info/2010/04/expat-shares-tidbits-about-living-in-kingston-jamaica/
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Linda, that link from “transitionsunshine” has many helpful hints for Americans.
The focus he or she describes is a Kingstonian one — and city-living is going to have its intensity.
My own Miami-based family members certainly know how to negotiate their way around Jamaica and Jamaicans, but openly despise the nation.
I do not subscribe to this.
I do not mean a lack of sentiment! “Despise” is a strong word, but it’s the word those family members use, saying the island is violent and everything is a hustle, etc. They think I am “out of my mind” for having a home there….yet, sometimes I wonder where they think they are since they moved to the US and off the “Third World Toilet”!
In any the country you visit/live in, preparing and getting wise is common sense. You have to understand the economics of the situation, at the very least. And, if you leave a country behind and emigrate, it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t have any saving graces at all.
The link’s author(s) say that “Trini cuisine also stands out (with its Indian influences) but Jamaica cuisine is more distinctive without obvious antecedents”. Really? Just a little research shows that is not right. (Jamaican cuisine has ‘obvious’ roots if you want to see them, and some of them — wait for it — are Asian, LOL. And T&T is no less ‘distinctive’ — it’s just less well known, which is not the same thing.)
Also, I really wish the author, if he wants to talk down to people from the UK, the so-called “Brits”/ “Europeans” — with their unclean European underwear habits and secular European outlooks — to take care. He (or she) might get an ear-bashing about which expat nation sends most money home!
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@ munu aka Bantu
Wow, your post and links are bursting with information. Thank you.
The analogy you draw between husband and wife is one I always likened to a bad polygynous marriage: Black America as the first wife, who though made him the Big Shot that he is, is looked over and battered, but relentlessly leaned on for her resources, whilst dissolute husband White America carts in trophy-wife after trophy-wife, thinking no one sees it…
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Kiwi:
If you were white and grew up in China, would you expect that other Chinese would assume that you were Chinese and not a foreigner? I’d guess that the effect might be even more pronounced.
How about the Chinese who have emigrated to African countries or who have been born there? I’ll bet that most Senegalese don’t look at a Chinese person and think, “here is a fellow Senegalese”.
Perhaps we can have a post about the pernicious effects of Sino- and Afro-privilege..
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D, definitely. It seems a lot of black folks have bought into this idea that we need America and white people. So what do you think? Should African Americans go to Africa?
I assume white folks would get to keep the house. Or do we split it up in the divorce?
Would our abusers pursue us? Try to kill us once we left.
I think so, that’s why segregation doesn’t work. The more separate we are from them the more violent they become.
Maybe Africa is far away enough that we’d be left alone. Although that didn’t stop them before.
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Linda,
“since when should truth be avoided because it might be perceived as “negativity””
I wasn’t that it was negative but unnecessary. We deal with classism everyday in America.
What was the point in pointing out classism in Africa? It seemed like you were just stating the obvious so I was trying to find some meaning in the statement.
Since we’re talking about AA going back to Africa it didn’t seem like reaching to tie your comment into the discussion by asking if you thought classism in Africa would be worse than racism in America.
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@ Solesearch
We should pull a Left Eye and burn the house down on our way out. Fuck letting “them” get what they did not build.
And at least in Africa, with a decent amount of engineers, we can build our own military and establish our own rules. We would be able to destroy those who hate us or destroy the entire world defending ourselves. To be frank, that is what it has come to for Black people.
That being said, yes, an American may stand out in an African country. But you’ll blend in quite a bit more than you would if you were in some European country. Those people birthed the Nazis, remember? And they still even keep them fascist groups around. Gotta love freedom of assembly.
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i always thought the back to africa movement and even the celebration of kwanzaa to be bizarre— blacks’ ancestors in america have been here probably longer than most whites’ ancestors have, they are certainly as detached from their ancestors’ culture, if not moreso, than whites. to me both seemed to be a solution for the problem of being ‘lost’ in their own country, regarded as second-class citizens and not ‘true’ americans. everyone wants a sense of belonging, of being part of their culture or part of their homeland, but since america rejects black people as a valid part of the culture, it was a way to reach back and try and find a sense of purpose, of belonging to something greater than themselves.
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@Solesearch
I don’t think going to Africa en masse is an option, not without displacing the people already living there and becoming a second wave of colonizers. If there was a Back to Africa movement it would have to happen slowly enough so that African Americans don’t create exclusive ethnic enclaves. Like people have said in this thread and in others, it wouldn’t be a smooth transition: like European immigrants in the 1900s we’ll be derided with suspicion, and like Jews in particular, we’ll probably be accused of manipulating the government with our relatively greater wealth. But maybe, maybe, in three generations time we’ll have integrated into whatever country we moved to. If the economy of certain African countries continue to grow and improve, I think some African Americans will move of their own violation without being spurred on by a movement.
Option two is that we carve out a country from America, either peacefully or violently. This insanely risky and unlikely to work, even if we did own more guns than we do. Even if we succeeded, America would likely try to isolate us politically and economically from the world. Not exactly a good future.
Option three is that we stay here and amass enough political and economic power to counter whatever racism we can, while at the same time improving living and learning conditions for the Black poor and working class. We can at least begin to control the police and justice system in local areas to put an end to discrimination there in. This would require more than a token Black Chief of Police, a Black Head of School, or a Black DA who succeeds by his or her own salt. As impressive and inspirational as these individuals are, history is not made by Great Men, but by people working together. We’d need a cooperative agenda and a consensus about what we want and how to get it. We’d have to effectively or officially create a political party instead of simply coasting with the Democrats. Even if said party never wins a single election anywhere in the country, the threat of losing their once guaranteed Black vote would give us more leverage over the Democrats, and might even purge the Republicans of White racism if they see winning our vote is a possibility. Of course, we’d be called racist, but who cares really. The word ‘racist’ has lost almost all severity in this day and age.
Option four is that we move to the Moon. No, I’m serious, moving to the moon has several advantages: There’s no one living there, so we don’t harm anyone in doing so, the Moon has natural resources you wouldn’t think it does, we’d be one giant leap ahead of everyone else in exploring the universe, and most importantly we might have the opportunity to create a society that accepted people of any race, class, gender, or sexuality, whereas the rest of the world has various -isms deeply entrenched in the societal norms, and likely always will.
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Option (1): Remains a viable option for African-Americans who remain aware of their political, economical and social ties with Mother Africa. But it would also be dependant on re-discovering those connections and embracing them. Not to re-impose on the existing indigenous African populations but in terms of finding and developing a new form of mutually recognised and accepted identity. Which I agree may require a time process.
Option (2): This would be a non-starter on a political, social, economical and so many other ” -ical” bases! It already has past history which is easily reviewed and makes no sense whatsoever in globally constructed still intact white supremacist society!
Option (3): Is by default what African-Americans are already doing. However, there is no reason why some African-Americans can choose to continue to pursue this option whilst also lending support to others who prefer Option (1).
Option (4): A lot more background research clearly needs to be undertaken before suggesting this because I can tell you now all of the assumptions made here are just plain wrong!
Even if they were all true (which they are not!) Do we really believe a global white supremacist society would allow African-Americans to be the first to make this happen? This makes Option (2) sound like a far more sensible and realistic choice!!!
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“Solesearch,
I wasn’t that it was negative but unnecessary. We deal with classism everyday in America.
What was the point in pointing out classism in Africa? It seemed like you were just stating the obvious so I was trying to find some meaning in the statement.”
Linda says,
But is it really obvious?
The classism or status black people deal with in America would not be the “same” if they moved to a black country. As foreigners, they will have a different status.
classism and racism aren’t even comparable, they both have negative impacts on society and on the people who get the bad end of the stick, regardless of where you live
It’s also not feasible to compare classism in America to classism in Caribbean/Africa, it’s like comparing apples to oranges. it is not the same and I definitely don’t assume most black Americans know that.
and even though I am talking to you, other people are reading this blog, so I don’t make assumptions on what other people may or may not know
Being that I am from a poor country and moved to a wealthy one; from 1st hand experience, I see the difference — and to me, black Americans don’t have a clue what’s it’s like to come from a poor, 3rd world country.
most people think like you and say, “I look like everyone else, so I have nothing to worry about” — not taking into account the different mindsets they’ll be dealing with — both good and bad.
Everyone views the world thru their own lenses, so a working class black American might think “he is poor and doesn’t have squat” but if he was to relocate to a poor, developing country, he might not realize that he may be viewed as someone from a “privileged” background because he is coming from America, so therefore, people look at him differently and also assume he can afford anything he wants.
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D., have you ever read “The Other Foot”
by Ray Bradbury?
It’s about how black people who have colonized Mars would treat white refugees from Earth. Good story. There is another one by him that shows African Americans leaving Earth for Mars and white people’s reactions. I can’t think of the name. A really good story, also.
Option 1: There is already so much ethnic fighting in Africa without the pressure that allowed ethnic whites to assimilate into American society. That pressure being anti-black racism. Like you said, without black people white people don’t exist. Without racism I doubt ethnic whites would have integrated into America so easily if at all.
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“Kwamla,
Option (3): Is by default what African-Americans are already doing. However, there is no reason why some African-Americans can choose to continue to pursue this option whilst also lending support to others who prefer Option (1).”
Linda says,
I like how you put that. with option 3, black America can strengthen itself while strengthening Africa at the same time — this is what the Chinese are doing, and what the Europeans and white American multinationals have been doing for years.
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@Kwamla
“Is by default what African-Americans are already doing.”
Not really, not yet anyway. There’s the NAACP, but it’s not a political party and as far as I know they don’t have much influence at the local level. If they did, circumstances would be much better.
“Even if they were all true (which they are not!) Do we really believe a global white supremacist society would allow African-Americans to be the first to make this happen?”
Who ever said we must operate within the constraints that they “allow”? If we did that, we’d still be slaves.
@Solesearch
“D., have you ever read “The Other Foot”
by Ray Bradbury?”
No, unfortunately. I’ll see if it’s at my university library.
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The USA is also majority white, but when I am there, I am usually either among multiracial or a wide variety of racial combinations. When I went to my mother’s funeral, the attendees were about 25% Asian, 25% white, 25% black, 15% hispanic and 10% multiracial (not including some of the others, which probably were multiracial also). Perhaps, in that respect, Brazil reminded me of the USA I was familiar with.
But different parts of Brazil has different racial mixtures. Rio was most like a combination of white (mostly of Portuguese, Italian or Spanish descent) and black, and every combination in-between. But Sao Paulo had a wider ethnic variety of descendants, including Black and Portuguese, but also Polish, Jews, Lebanese and well over 1 million Asians (esp. Japanese, Chinese, Korean). Curitiba has even more European descendants, esp. some blond people of German or northern descent, in addition to many Italians. Maybe it is like going to DC/Baltimore, NY and Boston. It is the complexity of the racial mixture that reminded me of the USA as well as the general perception that certain areas are perceived as being “peligoso” (Dangerous) and those have larger proportions of darker skinned people.
In any case, I cannot imagine anyone standing out in Brazil on the basis of skin colour alone. If they feel that, it is due to something else (see below).
I think the overemphasis on skin colour is a very American thing. To you, you think that having a variety of hues of skin colour makes it heterogeneous. That seems very American to me. Yet another group of people might simply look at them as growing up in the same area, having the same education and even sharing ancestry with each other — ie, not heterogeneous at all.
Let me give you another example.
Imagine a conference in Hong Kong with people attending from HK, Mainland China, Taiwan, Singapore, etc. To the attendees, they might think it is very heterogeneous, as the attendees come from different countries, speak different dialects at home, have different education, grew under different political system, and only have limited understanding of the society that the other grew up in.
But you might look at it and think, it is so homogeneous. After all, they are all ethnic Han Chinese with little variety in skin colour hue, can communicate in the same language, and might share certain cultural concepts (probably because they can communicate in the same or simlar langagues). They would find it VERY heterogeneous and you might not.
Just goes to show that your former boss lived in a white bubble in the USA. The USA is full of Black, brown, Asians, multiracial people. Yet white people, who don’t normally feel like they stand out in the USA (at least on the basis of skin colour), and only experience when they go abroad, indicates that they isolated themselves from non-whites most of the time in the USA.
I am always alarmed (yet also amused) when I met white people from metro DC or metro NY who, when suddenly finding themselves in an environment with mostly non-white people (say, at a local bar or night club, at a local shopping mall, or other public place), that they feel very self-conscious that they stick out like prominently, and feel unsafe. I need to ask them — they live in a multiracial, multiethnic society where non-Hispanics English speaking whites are maybe the largest group, but actually not the majority — why would they feel like they stick out at all?
-> they lived in a white bubble in the USA. If they went to Brazil, they could not find their corresponding USA white bubble and were forced to interact with different members of society. They felt like they stick out because they had left their familiar white bubble. But in the USA, it is not necessary to go to another country to experience this — just hop on a bus or subway or take a 1/2 drive in your car. But most white Americans feel very uncomfortable leaving their white bubble and simply would not do that.
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Sorry, I was responding to Soleseach’s questions above.
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And I think that it is a very American thing to believe that racism is so much more impactful on the mind and behavior than classism. It is so strong that it lulls lower middle and working class whites that they are somehow better than blacks (and closer to upper class whites somehow). It is so strong, that it causes people to vote against their class interests. It is so strong, that it can still lead to racially segregated neighborhoods despite class differences.
But in America, it is more impactful because so many people believe it to be so. But it might not work to project to other societies.
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@Jefe
Racism is also a class thing. Race is a social construct and a system that Caucasians created to benefit from and have more privileges over Blacks and non Whites. And Blacks and non Whites are disadvantaged by the system. I also see racism has a feeling that you think your race is better than another race.
As a Black woman, I am always affected by institutionalized racism and prejudice on a regular basis. White people will never understand because they have never faced racism or prejudice. To me, all their cries of reverse racism are in vain and rather phony. They are still the privileged ones in this country!
Sorry if any of my past comments have offended anyone on here.
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Racism might be a subset of classism, but classims also includes other aspects not directly related to race.
I think race in the USA more a caste issue than a class issue.
I think White people do face certain prejudices and may encounter certain discrimination — there are different groups of white people. We can learn and understand these as well.
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@ munu aka Bantu
While you’ve undoubtedly shared some great material and analysis for viewing Africa in a modern Western context. I would question whether this is the type or style of model Africa needs to emulate for its diverse people or problems.
The Western growth model has been imposed globally in many countries. Western countries and economies today themselves are suffering and deteriorating precisely because of these defunct models. They do not address.the fundamental social issues of Classicism, Racism,Sexism and many other divisions their societies have created. Not to mention Environmental concerns caused by the constant rape and pillaging of natural resources to sustain this illusory Western perpetual growth ideal of an ever expanding GDP. Unsustainable growth on a finite planet of resources?
Any movement of African-Americans back to Africa which ignores or fails to bring in new ideas on how to implement Real Equality and Justice for ALL. Will simply be perpetuating the same failed, bankrupt and soul destroying Western style of living. Which privileges and enriches the few at the expense of disadvantaging and impoverishing the many.
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http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/nov/17/brazil-census-african-brazilians-majority
Jefe, you keep saying Brazil is white majority, and you are wrong
Where you went, were white majority areas, most tourists in Rio, or Sao Paulo only sede these mostly white areas. You are correct about the south, with more German and Italian immigration, and about the large Japanese population in Sao Paulo, that actualy won some world little league baseball championships, but was barely noticed by Brazilians..to most Brazilians, most Asians are “Japa’s”..Brazilians are very irreverant and very politicly inncorrect…
But the country is majority Afro descendant…and , black Brazilians, are very influenced by the black American culture I seem to perceive you claim is weak…or maybe Im not getting what you mean…I think what you mean is, black Americans dont represent black American culture if they travel as individuals…Americans I know in Brazil, hardly represent American culture , for sure not the American culture I have dedicated much of my life to learning
Black Americans wanting to live in Salvador, for example, would have to deal with a differant out look on interracial dating, for example , or how Brazilians view themselves and self identify
As an American living in a country with differant culture than America, the first thing I had to do was give up expectations on what daily life is like…being able to get certain things or things be like the States, just isnt happening, and if I didnt let go of those expectations, I might as well as go packing after the first month
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Jefe,
“The USA is also majority white, but when I am there, I am usually either among multiracial or a wide variety of racial combinations.”
There are many situations where black people find themselves one of a few black people present, surrounded by white people. America is very segregated. In these situations you are bound to stand out. This is what I was talking about.
“Just goes to show that your former boss lived in a white bubble in the USA. The USA is full of Black, brown, Asians, multiracial people. Yet white people, who don’t normally feel like they stand out in the USA (at least on the basis of skin colour), and only experience when they go abroad, indicates that they isolated themselves from non-whites most of the time in the USA.”
Definitely. Do white people in Brazil not live in white bubbles? Is there no segregation in Brazil?
“To you, you think that having a variety of hues of skin colour makes it heterogeneous.”
Our discussion was about skin color. The statement was about skin color. I was referring to skin colors being heterogeneous. I wasn’t talking about the culture or language. You must take the comment in the context in which it was made.
Anyway, how is that an example of an Americanism that you can pick up by just looking at a person? You wouldn’t know a person thought that until they said it. Do you have any examples of Americanisms that you can pick up on visually?
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D.,
“No, unfortunately. I’ll see if it’s at my university library.”
It is a short story in the book The Illustrated Man.
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Linda,
“most people think like you and say, “I look like everyone else, so I have nothing to worry about” — not taking into account the different mindsets they’ll be dealing with — both good and bad.”
I don’t think like that. My point is that I don’t think African Americans who would be looking to move are thinking that either. Most African Americans are thinking the exact opposite. That it is worse in Africa or the Caribbean because of the violence and poverty.
However, I do appreciate you pointing out how the classism African Americans could face in the Caribbean or Africa would be different than in America.
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I said that Brazil is *technically* majority white, ie, how people identify. You can check the demographic statistics. I didn’t say that it was actually majority populated by people purely of European descent.
But I do believe that those who identify as white often are mixed with other things, mostly African, but also Native American, even Asian. The majority in Brazil is likely mulatto.
I do agree that Rio is at least half black. Sao Paulo probably is not quite — maybe about 40-45% of the population has at least some African ancestry, but it is not anymore than NY. Sao Paulo has a huge non-African immigrant descendant population (also not unlike NY),
Curitiba looked as white as Boston – I am guessing about 65-70% white.
I grew up in SE DC and PG County, MD — quite used to experiencing over 70% black / 18% white on a daily basis. I guess I would need to travel to Salvador to experience that in Brazil.
Salvador’s black population PLUS the “brown” multiracial population is 79-80%. Yet Detroit is 83% black. For Solesearch’s ex-boss to be very self-conscious in Brazil due to the number of “brown” people tells me that he must have been living in a bubble in the USA. That is not the USA I know.
I have expatriated myself from the USA for many years. VERY VERY happy to give up all the expectations of daily life there. Dread going back there. It took me about one week to adjust not being there anymore, and never regretted leaving.
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OK, B.R., sorry, admit that 50.7% of Brazillians now identify as “non-white”. I was looking at statistics from about 2008.
I think many Brazilians switched their identity from “white” back to “mixed race” and from “Mixed race” to “black”, perhaps indicative of a trend of people to acknowledge or admit their African ancestry. It partly reflects the tendency for more people to admit that racism there exists.
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At Jefe, having come back after a long stint away I can only wish that I could leave again. Already, had some idiots hackle me as I was walking my son back from the grocery store. Seriously, 13 years and not one hackle to get anything from the store. Here for less then 3 months and already have to deal with. I hope I can find my patience again. However, with my son in tote I am not all that calm anymore.
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@solesearch,
I will be on the lookout for visual cues to indicate Americanisms and will relate them to you when I notice them. It’s hard to put into words.
I think that white Brazilians do tend to live in white neighborhoods, but there it is more difficult to isolate yourself completely. In Brazil, I got the impression that it was based more on economic class rather than race per se, but skin colour was correlated with economic class. I also got the impression that Brazilians accept themselves as a multiracial society more than Americans. White people in the USA make special effort to isolate themselves from non-whites. They think of non-whites as somehow not real Americans, or at least to a lesser extent than they are (and therefore not entitled to privileges to being American). Yet these are the same people to claim that “they” (the not quite full Americans) have an entitlement mentality.
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Well, Jefe, the article I brought in is about self identification, and it states that more people are identifying as Afro descendant than before
In Brazil, there are huge rural populations that are black or “pardo”
In Sao Paulo, there are huge neighborhoods that are black and pardo
People passing through the big cities, will see mostly white people traveling,checking into hotels, on TV, in congress, in the universities, running businesses…you cant really get the real picture
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Jefe, your post came in while I was typing….
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@ KOT,
Indeed, why do Americans act like that!
I have never experienced or seen such behavior in any other country to the extent that I witnessed it in the USA. Maybe *slightly* in France, UK, and Australia, but still not as much as in the USA.
But, now I get to see many mainland Chinese. They also have their unique set of distinctive behaviors. With their growing wealth and penchant for travel, they will be found in more and more places in higher numbers. I discuss with friends about how they will become a new distinctive ubiquitous “type” to replace the “American” type. What that means is that instead of expecting everyone else to adapt to the “American” style (which they consider to be the normal universal style), mainland Chinese might be establish a “normal, universal” style of their own to which others are expected to accommodate.
It’s actually interesting to witness.
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@BR,
I wasn’t basing on what I saw exactly, but what I read and studied about the place.
Metro Sao Paulo has nearly 20 million people. If it has, say over 35% black and brown multiracial, that is at least 7 million. Of course that is still a lot of people. I never implied that it had a small black population. But the non-black population of Sao Paulo is definitely larger. There are almost as many people of Italian descent as black in Sao Paulo.
But I did feel that there is a larger proportion of, say 30% to 60% African ancestry population than there is in the USA. I saw a graph that depicted the USA African / European ancestry split around 1970. There were 2 modes, one around 80-82% African and one around 10-12%. The former cluster identified as black, consisting of people around 60% – 99% black. The other mode identified as white, descended from people who “passed” into white (around 5-15% black). The middle area (20% – 60% black) was nearly flat in the USA. This was not the case during the Civil war, when there were large numbers of people in that range. That reflects the effect of the anti-miscegenation laws – clustering around the two modes. In the Brazil, it seemed more like a continuum from one end to the other. The ones that are, say 80-85% African in Sao Paulo are no more numerous than the ones in NY. I think the USA modal spikes have become less extreme in the past 40 years with intermarriage and migration from the Caribbean and Latin America, and might migrate to the Brazilian pattern after a while.
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“Bulanik,
My own Miami-based family members certainly know how to negotiate their way around Jamaica and Jamaicans, but openly despise the nation.
I do not subscribe to this.
I do not mean a lack of sentiment! “Despise” is a strong word, but it’s the word those family members use, saying the island is violent and everything is a hustle, etc. They think I am “out of my mind” for having a home there”
Linda says,
I feel the same as you Bulanik — I’m not giving up on JA but some of my relatives feel like yours. I go home every year, and each time, I see the changes taking place. I don’t think all of them are great but I continue to feel positive that good things will come.
I’ve had a few older relatives from London move back to Jamaica and they ran back to London after 3 years. I think after being in the UK for 40 years, they forgot what it was like and had unrealistic expectations (plus they moved to a parrish where we have No family, did not make sense, but big people with big money want to live in “big” Clarendon area)
In order for Jamaica to progress though, the government needs to find better ways to utilize the diaspora community. What’s the point of having “citizens” who make it abroad, who want to come home but feel like they can’t because change is too slow.
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The post I wrote two days ago ended with the words “TO CONTINUE…”.
At the moment I wrote those words, I was thinking to protest further against some posts which appear to me to bash Africa unnecessarily. Now, after watching the different branches into which the original topic grew I think it is best to let it rest.
I think that is necessary that Black communities in Africa, North America, South America, Caribbean and Europe have a healthy relationship to one another. And that begins with knowing each other better.
In the today environment of stereotypes against Black people worldwide I think that each Black person must know that not everything that is said about Blacks living in other parts of the World is true. And that some positive trues remain silenced!
There is a reason why anti-Black racists insist in stereotyping Africa negatively. Because they want to maintain their own Black communities humbled.
I remember that a Black Brazilian engineer from Rio de Janeiro who worked in my office in the 90’s once said that every immigrant community in Brazil was awarded some degree of respect because everybody thought that their members came from civilized origins. Armenians were civilized back “home”. Arabs were civilized back “home”. Chinese, Japanese, almost everybody: except Blacks. Blacks came from the “darkness” back there in the infamous continent of Africa. If a Black person happened to protest against some injustice they were directly or indirectly reminded that where they came from things were far, far worse! A knee-jerk reaction of Blacks in those communities against such prejudices was to say: we are not Africans, we have nothing to do with Africa. Although true if taken literally such kind of answer failed to shut the attacks up. Even today to a Black woman with seat in the Italian government are thrown bananas. The same happens, sometimes, to Black soccer players in Europe. Black American politicians are sometimes caricatured as monkeys. Why? There are no monkeys roaming in all those places! So the simple answer is: because people associate those Blacks to Africa and Africa to monkeys, in other words, to Africa, the place where monkeys roam freely side by side with humans!
That Brazilian engineer took many photos of places where he lived, worked and enjoyed in Maputo and concluded that when he would be back in Brazil he would thrown at their faces (“jogar na cara”) how the place of the monkeys really looked like! He promised also to open the eyes of other Black colleagues, family and friends, regarding those lies and distortions about the land of their distant ancestors. They should not be ashamed of it, after all!
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@Solesearch and Phoebe
I apologize to you guys. I am sorry I was being rude. Anyways I shouldn’t have said anything about Jamaica. At the end of the day, we are all Black living in this racist country. We need to stick together and help solve the issues that plague us in this country.
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In the last post instead of “Because they want to maintain their own Black communities humbled.” it should be “Because they want to maintain the Black communities in their midst humbled.”. That way the meaning is clearer!
King of Trouble and Linda thank you for your reactions to my first post at this thread.
@abagond
“The parallels between domestic violence and racism (and colonialism) are pretty striking. The standard advice for victims of domestic violence is to get out while you still can – that your partner is unlikely ever to reform, that even better behaviour on his part is itself almost always a manipulation and not a sign of lasting, inner change.”
Your comment makes me think about a book of Albert Memmi, “Dominated Man,” which I read when I was very young, where the author describes the similarities he found in the psychological processes associated with all situations were humans dominate other humans.
In view of my advice to Black Americans not to leave their country “en masse” – contrary to the standard advice to victims of domestic violence you cite – one can ask if the analogy can be stretched that far. Food for thought!
@Bulanik
“@ munu aka Bantu
Wow, your post and links are bursting with information. Thank you.
The analogy you draw between husband and wife is one I always likened to a bad polygynous marriage: Black America as the first wife, who though made him the Big Shot that he is, is looked over and battered, but relentlessly leaned on for her resources, whilst dissolute husband White America carts in trophy-wife after trophy-wife, thinking no one sees it…”
Wow. You, Bulanik, stretch the analogy even further! If the first wife of White America is indeed Black America then one can ask who are the others? Maybe the immigrant communities that came after the slaves receive their freedom? Is this part of the motif why White America is so busy importing so many people? Do they want not to come to terms with their original (first) Wife?
Food for thought again!
@Kwamla
“@ munu aka Bantu
While you’ve undoubtedly shared some great material and analysis for viewing Africa in a modern Western context. I would question whether this is the type or style of model Africa needs to emulate for its diverse people or problems.”
I understand your concerns. The simple answer is: Africa most become strong and competitive to survive. Like China. Nobody messes up with China today because they are strong. Other development models were tried in other parts of the World and even in Africa and they failed. Remember Socialism and the Soviet Bloc? Even with all its imperfections it was an attempt to design a new type of society were social classes were supposed to merge and disappear. But it failed.
Today we see that even mixed models like the ones used in Scandinavia (Capitalism mixed with Socialism) are having difficulty to compete with the raw Capitalism of the Far East with its low wages, etc.
Regarding the relationship between the modern concept of economic growth and the environment I agree: one cannot grow infinitely if the resources are finite.
But I don’t know how humanity will solve this puzzle.
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munu aka Bantu,
Thank you for sharing you knowledge of the Continent.
As I stated before, I know nothing “deep” about modern day African society(s), only my corner of the world in the Caribbean.
I enjoy reading about the tremendous progress that Africa is experiencing but my only concern is that Africa is swapping out one colonial “master” (Europe) for another (China), so question:
Do most of the countries in Africa that are trading heavily with China have a firm control of the their raw materials, minerals, precious metals, etc — meaning, are they dictating terms to China or is China setting the parameters?
I see a lot of buildings that have sprung up with the Chinese names, constructed by Chinese builders.
How much is Africa gaining and losing with this “partnership”?
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@ Linda. Excellent questions. Why do all these “developed” Nations insist upon barging in and “saving” Africa from herself?
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“SugarKiss
@ Linda. Excellent questions. Why do all these “developed” Nations insist upon barging in and “saving” Africa from herself?”
Linda says,
Because it makes them A lot of money.
and now with China sort of getting “exclusive” rights to the precious mineral/ gems, Europe and America are going to have to think of ways to get back into Africans “good graces” so that they can stop leasing Gold from and to each other and the US Federal Reserve … the Chinese are/have been putting “spokes” in the game
I just hope that this time, African is in the “winning” position.
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@Linda
“I see a lot of buildings that have sprung up with the Chinese names, constructed by Chinese builders.”
Much of the buildings in the city of Maputo were built under Portuguese colonial rule.
The place received the status of a city at the end of the 19th century and gained its current configuration during a construction boom in the period between 1965 and 1975.
During the Mozambican Civil War – 1977 to 1992 (the country became independent in 1975) – the country economy entered into a deep depression and all construction essentially halted in Maputo and other major urban centers in Mozambique. The country initiated a recovery process after that, and now its economy has one the highest growth rate in the World. The city of Maputo is now in the midst of a new construction boom. Civil engineering constructors coming from various parts of the World are participating in this process which is on the verge of acceleration because major coal and gas discoveries, made recently, are going to increase the country’s fortunes in the years to come. Chinese, South African, Portuguese, Turks, Brazilian, and others, all have they share of the pie.
Seen from here I don’t feel that the Chinese dominate the Mozambican economy. What it’s true is that the Chinese put better conditions in their deals with the locals (government essentially) and win more projects – or the major projects – because of that.
Relations between states are not relations of help but relations of give and take. The Chinese are not helping anybody but they are outsmarting the Westerners because they studied the situation thoroughly before they initiated their current involvement with Africa. They identified which kind of actions they could take which could maximize their profits. It’s up to the Africans to do the same for themselves and extract the maximum from that same relationship.
@Linda
“I just hope that this time, African is in the “winning” position.”
Me too. I see Africa’s political and economic scene as essentially dependent of the actions of local actors and not foreigners, whoever they are. African countries which manage to have a good leadership (and that means a patriotic leadership) will win the “jackpot” of development and soon will become Africa’s economic success stories. Botswana is already an example of that and a showcase of what a good leadership can achieve in a short period of time.
Outside conditions for Africa’s economic takeoff were never better than now.
Check following interesting link which depicts the city of Maputo at the beginning of the 21st century (circa ten years ago).
http://www.afrol.com/features/10593
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@Abagond
“But by the time he gave the Gettysburg Address in 1863 he believed in a multiracial society….”
Laughable. I agree with Linda that “you give Lincoln too much credit.”
I really think you’re in denial. You recognise that Lincoln was pro ACS, pro “back to Africa” but somehow, just b/c he gave a speech about freeing slaves, he was somehow for a “multiracial society”? Where do you get this idea?
I think you want Lincoln, a racist, to be something he was not.
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@ resw77
Was Lincoln racist? Of course. But the change in his public position was still huge.
Lincoln said this in 1858 at the Lincoln-Douglas debates:
He said this in 1862 to blacks:
Yet a year later he said this at the battlefield of Gettysburg:
That is a huge change: from ethnic cleansing to a multiracial society. When he says “all men” he means black people too.
In 1865 he went on to pass the Thirteenth Amendment outlawing slavery. In his last days, he was thinking about giving at least some blacks, like Union Army veterans, the right to vote.
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@ abagond
Just because he said “all men are created equal” does not mean he was supportive of a “multiracial society.” First, whether Lincoln thought Africans were “men” is questionable. There was still the practice of involuntary servitude that included white “men” as well.
Second, after the Gettysburg address, he continued his colonisation plan to deport African Americans, even though his efforts were an utter failure.
Then, of course, I have issue with the notion that Lincoln “went on to pass the Thirteenth Amendment.” He did no such thing…he signed it, but even if he did not sign it, it would have “passed.” A few days after he signed it, Congress affirmed that Presidents have nothing to do with a Constitutional Amendment.
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@Linda…I think the best way to give you my impression of The Gambia, is to link to the series I wrote on my first trip in 2010 (at the end of each post is a link to the next) — http://lets-be-clear.blogspot.com/2011/02/home-going-part-1-why-i-went.html
It is an 85% Muslim country, but I felt absolutely no pressure to conform when I was there (my own sense of respecting another culture and learning some-damned-thing is what guided me when I was there). The exchange rate, as it is in most non-Western countries, favors the dollar (when the family went for Xmas 2012, the sons felt like they were rich when they changed $1000 USD!).
Though every time I’ve gone has been in-season when a lot of cultural things are going on and the weather is beautiful (November – January), the most inexpensive time to go is off-season (around April – August).
I’ve been back twice more since then, but my lazy behind hasn’t posted about those other trips yet — but I will.
I’ve been doing some research on property prices (for rent and for sale) since my last trip — and believe me, it’s feasible. The cost to own is low compared to America (found a really, cute 2br/2ba bungalow, sharing a pool with two other bungalows for $68k) and you get dual, Gambian-American citizenship if you become a property owner. I’m going to check them out when I go back in a couple months. My friend bought two plots of land, one on which he built The Center and the other, right now, is not developed. But I don’t know enough about builders there to take him up on his very reasonable, sale offer.
Sister, I don’t have all the answers, but I know I’m just so damned tired of what I see going on in this country. The Gambia is where I’m most familiar right now, but I am thinking of volunteering in Ghana for a few weeks so I can see what living there is like as well (they have a program for African-Americans particularly, where they give you the land as long as you build your house in a certain amount of time). Bottom line, I’m just in search of some real “peace of mind” and the slower way of life I found in Africa — suits me.
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@Linda…If you have any other questions that I might be able to answer, just let me know, okay?
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Deb, chica, I am happy enough with the fact that you took the time to write … Thank you for that.
I had an earlier discussion with Solesearch about how black Americans “class status” change in the Caribbean because they are lumped in with white people and viewed as “walking ATM’s” …. Did you find that to be true of the region you visited in Gambia?
Also, IF you were to make Gambia your “home base” do you see yourself still being a journalist or would you change your careers?
What do you see as the upside and downside of “semi-permanently” relocating?
You mentioned your friend built a center, how would you contribute to Gambian society if you decide to volunteer?
How stable is the economy and what financial forecast/growing market trends?
answer when you can, no rush
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@Linda…Part 1 (cuz I’m long-winded!)
No problem, I certainly enjoy the conversation! Been out-of-pocket for a minute trying to wok some things out in my head.
“Did you find that to be true of the region you visited in Gambia?”
Yeah I did, and it bothered me as I tried to wrap my head around it because I knew I wasn’t wealthy! But relatively speaking, Just my being able to go there when I chose was instructive. Many Gambians can’t get a visa to come here. Additionally, I had way more money than they did given the mechanism of devaluation of their money compared to ours, the fact that many people work in the “hospitality/tourism” industry or on family farms, or for wealthy foreigners who do not pay well. It is a small country, large parts of it still quite rural. I don’t know about the stability of the economy or the financial forecasts/growing market trends. Of course I need to know some of those things and I will investigate further, but those concepts, to my mind anyway, are very Western ways of looking at life in the country.
Beyond having enough food to eat, enough funds to handle medical situations locally or to get to Germany for serious ones (which is only a 4-hour flight away with military treatment facilities all over that I could avail myself of) and being able to afford a decent place to live — I’m not necessarily looking for much along the lines of wealth or Western living. I want to live, as peacefully and wholly as I can, long gone are my needs for excess or materialism (wish I’d known better long ago, trust me). Hell, I’m old now! I’m looking for spiritual abundance and growth in a much more meaningful life now! 🙂
“Also, IF you were to make Gambia your “home base” do you see yourself still being a journalist or would you change your careers?”
Chile, I blog because I love to write! 🙂 I’ve not been a journalist for many years now. I’m an empty-nest, pseudo-home maker! 🙂 Given that press freedom there is kinda dicey (Jesse Jackson was there last yea, trying to get two Gambian-born journalists who live here out of jail), I’m not certain I’d try to be a journalist there but I don’t know. Maybe I’ll write a book or two — I can see that happening in that very tranquil, beautiful setting with little, if any of the distractions I have here (got a lot of stories to tell! :-))
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@Linda…Pt. 2
“What do you see as the upside and downside of “semi-permanently” relocating?
Actually, if I do it, that’s how I’m planning to do it at first. I’ll be able to spend part of the time there and come back when I want to. I can either buy something relatively inexpensively and rent it while I’m gone, or just rent an awfully nice place for about $300-$400/month.
“You mentioned your friend built a center, how would you contribute to Gambian society if you decide to volunteer?
My first intention is to learn, because I think the country has far more to teach me than I have to teach it. But I can help in the schools, teaching English or writing; in the villages, helping women and children in whatever way I can; become involved with the women’s groups who use my friend’s Center.
Ideally, I’d like to bring young Black girls from here to Africa via some kind of yet-to-be-delineated educational program with them interacting everyday with Gambian girls their age and learning about Africa and the culture “from whence they came.” I think it’d benefit both groups because it’s true, we, Americans are, more often than not, not seen as Africans by a lot of Africans due to that whole “class status” thing, but as I said somewhere before, I truly believe that WE are the ones who are more alike than unalike and I want them to experience that in the same way that I did.
So, as you see, I’m still hashing this thing out in my head, but I am hashing it out.
Peace, hermana…
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I have a question for everyone on here.Do you think Marcus Garvey’s Back To Africa movement was a good idea? If you think so, why? If you don’t, why?
Personally my own family are Jamaican born like Marcus Garvey and I don’t think it would be a good idea. Black Americans have established their mark on this country and made this country what it is today. It is not good for Black Americans to leave this country because they would face even more obstacles and difficulties adopting to other countries and racism. Plus Black Americans are the world’s richest Black people and have a better lifestyle than most Blacks around the world even the poor Black Americans.
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Reblogged this on The Racist and Unoriginal Anglo-American Entertainment Industry.
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@Adeen,
I support choice. If an African-American wants to go settle or develop themselves in Africa, then great. If they want to stay in the USA, then stay and do their best here.
It’s good either way.
It is stressful and difficult for anyone to learn and adopt to ways in other places. How is that different for immigrants to the USA? How is that different from those Chinese immigrants who have settled in Dakar in the past 2 decades. At the same time, Guangzhou, a major city in southern China, has seen over 100,000 Africans settle there. There is now a large African community there.
“Better lifestyle” is an individual perspective.
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@Jefe
You have a good point but I disagree. Black Americans have already establish their mark on this country. This country belongs to them as much as it belongs to White AmeriKKKlans.
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@Adeen,
I think we actually do agree. I think Black Americans (and all other Americans) should feel perfectly fine about staying in the USA. They have made their mark here and it is also their country.
But, that does not stop Black Americans (or any other American) from going anywhere else in the world to make their livelihood.
Kiwi does have a slight point. But, non-blacks have paid rent also. We cannot say that only blacks have paid rent.
Would it make more sense for Native Americans to take back their land (or at least control of it) and put whites (and, perhaps distressingly, blacks and Asians) onto reservations as that they cannot exactly deport them?
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“Deb,
I think it’d benefit both groups because it’s true, we, Americans are, more often than not, not seen as Africans by a lot of Africans due to that whole “class status” thing, but as I said somewhere before, I truly believe that WE are the ones who are more alike than unalike and I want them to experience that in the same way that I did.”
Linda says,
Deb, Thanks for your take on things. I hope you find the “peace and meaning of life” you seek in Gambia and I wish you the best on your new pathway in life.
My opinion, the “mindset” has to be met somewhere in the middle. I think it’s too vague for African descendants to just pick a country in Africa, and go and try to find a connection…
I think people should seek to find out what Ethnic group they belong to, in order to have a “meaningful” and personalized connection, so they can learn about their actual, genetic ancestry and go to that country to seek enlightenment as to “who” they are and learn about the culture
(just trying to get black people to “unsee” Africa through European lenses is hard enough)
There is also an organization that is working on allowing African Americans to have dual citizenship with the country of their genetic ancestors because apparently, many people have been going to countries like Ghana or Tanzania, and these countries were not offering citizenship without proof of Ethnic linkage.
http://africarising2010.blogspot.com/2010/10/three-paths-to-dual-citizenship.html
Especially with many African Americans being genetically mixed-race (they say average is 80% African /20% European/other)
http://www.ebony.com/life/dr-rick-kittles-breaks-down-dna#axzz2bvWO3p3m
the connection to Africa would be more real because an Ethnic group can pinpoint the country of their ancestors origin.
Like with Wanda Sykes, who found out her DNA ancestry, she can say that she is part: English, Fulani, and Tikar (so Cameroon would be her country)
I think being able to actually Name her African ancestry is more meaningful than her just saying “I’m English and black” — black represents a “collective ideology” and doesn’t personalize the African heritage — being just a “colour” allows African heritage to remain marginalized.
it’s high time people learned the Names of the different African ethnic groups/ Nationalities the same way we have/had to learn about European ones.
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@Adeen
“Do you think Marcus Garvey’s Back To Africa movement was a good idea? If you think so, why? If you don’t, why?”
First, I don’t agree that Garvey was really a part of the “back to Africa” movement. He was a Pan Africanist and in Jamaica, most of his efforts were spent (including as part of the PPP) trying to correct the socioeconomic issues IN Jamaica.
His main philosophy was that blacks everywhere should be independent and have an economy among themselves, NOT that Africans in America should go back to Africa.
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@Linda…Your welcome and thanks, Sis.
” I think it’s too vague for African descendants to just pick a country in Africa, and go and try to find a connection…
While I agree with you in principle, I think for us, going to any African country is beneficial if only to experience an environment in which the majority of the people look like you. That alone was powerful for me!
I think people should seek to find out what Ethnic group they belong to, in order to have a “meaningful” and personalized connection, so they can learn about their actual, genetic ancestry and go to that country to seek enlightenment as to “who” they are and learn about the culture”
On this we totally agree! My first trip was based on information gathered from my friend who built the Center and upon accepting his invitation, I found so many uncanny similarities in the culture and lifestyle with which I grew up on one of the SC Sea Islands, I dove head-first into researching the country (I also went to Senegal, but did not spend enough time there for any meaningful digging). I’ve done DNA testing through Ancestry.com which doesn’t drill down to exact ethnic groups, but it put me squarely from West Africa among these countries: Senegal, Mauritania, Mali, Niger, Nigeria, Cameroon, Ghana, Gabon, Congo, and various other nations along Africa’s west coast, from The Gambia to Equatorial Guinea. I plan to do another with 23andMe in the hopes they can drill it down further. Unlike the many you mentioned however, I’m 94% West African and 6% undetermined, which doesn’t surprise me given my Gullah background. As the following video explains, the Gullah-Geechee people of SC, GA, FL have most been able to maintain their African ancestral roots:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lBzkFjdJrQ&feature=share&list=PLFC8FB3F384FB945A)
Additionally, I bought Lorenzo Dow Turner’s “Africanisms in the Gullah Dialect” and as I pored over the pages, I found so many linguistic similarities — I could hear my grandparents, parents (and even me before I got “edu-ma-cated” and assimilated) whispering!! 🙂 Legislation has passed in Congress to establish the Gullah/Geechee Cultural Heritage Corridor in order to maintain our cultural heritage: http://www.gullahgeecheecorridor.org Happy as I am about that, I fear it will be taken over by whites, or Blacks who think like whites, in order to fashion their version of who we’ve been and are. We’ll see.
“There is also an organization that is working on allowing African Americans to have dual citizenship with the country of their genetic ancestors because apparently, many people have been going to countries like Ghana or Tanzania, and these countries were not offering citizenship without proof of Ethnic linkage.”
I’ve done some digging on Ghana (looked up the application process and requirements for the land they’re willing to give to Black Americans) and I’ve not found any information on the “proof of ethnic linkage,” but thanks for the link to that site. I’ve done more digging in The Gambia because I’ve spent more time there (my friend has been an invaluable resource as well) and the proof of ethnic linkage isn’t a requirement — only land ownership.
“it’s high time people learned the Names of the different African ethnic groups/ Nationalities the same way we have/had to learn about European ones.”
I could not agree more and I hope in time, I’ll be able to report that I’ve reached that milestone! So appreciate the condo, Sis.
Peace…
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The idea that indigenous Americans could ever put whites on reservations is such an absurdity. It demonstrates the insanity of liberal race baiting. That kind of activity wouldn’t just destroy the U.S., it would so radically destabilize the world economy and political system that a nuclear war wouldn’t be unlikely.
Not to mention the fact that 2 percent of the population would never be able to achieve that.
The notion that whites haven’t paid their dues is ridiculous. Whites have long since “paid the rent.” Conquest and displacement of hunter gatherers who lacked literacy in 1670 is not the same as my stealing your car in any case.
In many instances indigenous chieftains sold their territory. Some allied with European powers in trans-Atlantic coalitions and found themselves on the losing side ( their motive in joining these often being the disenfranchisement of their indigenous enemies). Even in the Plains Wars the natives were not wholly innocent. The relocation under Jackson was an unqualified wrong, but there was often ambiguity in other eras.
It’s like looking at the Aztecs vs the Spaniards and being absolutely unwilling to see both as
militaristic, religion- driven imperial states. Just because the Spaniards were the victors doesn’t make the Aztecs innocent victims.
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[…] of a possible “return” to Africa by people who reside in USA is addressed in another thread. https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/07/24/back-to-africa/ My take on that is stated there too, and I would suggest you take some time to read it (and follow […]
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Deb writes:
“I plan to do another with 23andMe in the hopes they can drill it down further.”
– – –
I had two autosomal DNA tests done: National Geographic and 23and Me. Neither test resulted in specific African nations or ethnic groups. There is a site, though, where raw DNA data can be uploaded and run through “calculators”, which can give one a better iinkling, at the very least, of one’s, geographical origins and sometimes even group affliations. I’ve tried several of these calculators and results vary a bit between them.
http://gedmatch.com (aDNA calculators)
There is also an online researcher who does free aDNA analysis via email. I no longer recall his email address, but a Google search on “Dr Doug McDonald”.and “DNA” should prove fruitful.
( The 23andMe site makes matches of its members who display similar DNA components / segments. The last time I checked (2+ months ago), I had over 1000 DNA “cousins”, and that’s counting only those of my ‘relatives’ who did the test with that specific company. There are probably 100s, if not 1000s, more.
.
It was kind of surreal finding out I have so many ‘relatives’ — all of whom I was heretofore unaware.)
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@Linda…That last line should’ve read, “So appreciate the convo, Sis!” (since my minor stroke in March of last year, I’ve had an issue with my “right brain” function (which, as I understand it, controls what’s happening on the left side of my body. Some letter recognition is impaired unless I look at the keyboard as I type. Family bought “Dragon Naturally Speaking” for me so I don’t have to deal with it, but I prefer to type — slower, but I figure I won’t be able to rehabilitate it if I don’t use it — constantly!).
@Flamma…Thank you so much for the info! I’ll definitely look into them.
“It was kind of surreal finding out I have so many ‘relatives’ — all of whom I was heretofore unaware.”
I know right??!! I’ve actually contacted some of those returned on Ancestry.com in the Southeast via email and learned some interesting stuff! I’m a jigsaw puzzle enthusiast so it’s all right up my alley! My hope is to grow the Family Tree enough that my sons can appreciate “from when they came” (at least on my side — Dad’s side is pretty much set as they came here as Italian immigrants “on the boat,” instead of “in the belly” of it. Quite the paper trail there).
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@Asplund
“…Not to mention the fact that 2 percent of the population would never be able to achieve that. ”
I gather you know nothing about history or the real world today, in which 98% of its wealth is controlled by 2% of the population.
“Conquest and displacement of hunter gatherers who lacked literacy in 1670 is not the same as my stealing your car in any case. ”
If these “hunter gatherers who lacked literacy” were so primitive, as you seem to imply, why did the Europeans steal/copy their form of government? Perhaps b/c the more primitive European settlers didn’t know anything about government.
“In many instances indigenous chieftains sold their territory. ”
And in many instances they were forced off, starting with the first English settlers at Jamestown who took over Powhatan lands and killed Opechancanough to the Indian REMOVAL Act of 1830.
“Just because the Spaniards were the victors doesn’t make the Aztecs innocent victims.”
Using your logic, if someone came to your house and tied you up or harmed you, then they would have rightful claim to your house and all your possessions therein.
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Yes yes! I am totally in favor this movement. Where can i donate? I would love it if they all moved back to africa. Think of the drop in crime, the rise of the usa economy. Go on back, black people… I’ll gladly donate!
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Kabestino
In the mean time I am going to donate to your education. You can’t go back to a place you have never been.
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An American Teacher Living as an Expatriate for a While in Mozambique
I discover a few months ago this interesting piece of multi-continental dialog. An African – Ghanian, to be more precise – and an American, exchange ideas about what is to be in Africa nowadays.
This was in March, 2020, before the “dictatorship of Covid-19” hit that corner of the world.
So you don’t see masks, social distancing, obsessive hand hygiene and other awkward protocols during the dialog. Good old days… (and it was only a few months ago! hope that they come back soon… we want our life back!)
Remember the time, that time…
A remembrance of how life was sweet before the “devil took control”.
A look also at modern urbanized Africa. It’s Maputo, but it could well be Luanda, Nairobi, Abidjan or Dacar.
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hssFDglRlyE&t=326s )
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@ munubantu
Thank you for sharing that video.
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