Booty dancing (by the 1700s) is a dance where the booty (backside, rear end, bum, bottom, batty, arse, ass) becomes the centre of attention. Generally the dances are not as simple as just facing backwards and moving you hips side to side, just wiggling your butt or booty shaking. It is mainly women who do it. When men take part it comes close to seeming like sex.
Among the many dances:
- American: twerking (1993), booty drop (2008)
- Jamaican: whining (by the 1940s)
- Dominican: perreo (1990s)
- Ivorian: mapouka (modern version 1980s)
Josephine Baker’s danse sauvage (1925) in Paris arguably is a booty dance too.
Booty dances are found among blacks in at least West Africa, the Caribbean and North America. From the 2000s they have been spreading to whites in the English and Spanish-speaking worlds. Presumably the same thing has been going on in Brazil and the Portuguese-speaking world.
Booty dancing goes back at least to the 1700s in West Africa. I say that because it fits the pattern of an Africanism:
- Found among blacks on both sides of the Atlantic.
- More common among blacks than whites.
- More common in the Caribbean than America.
- Considered “ghetto” in America – that is, more common among working-class blacks than middle and upper-class ones and looked down on by whites.
Another sign that they go back hundreds of years in Africa is that the older form of the mapouka is sometimes done during religious ceremonies.
Booty dancing might, in fact, go back thousands of years, but that would be hard to prove.
To White Americans booty dancing seems to come from hip hop in the 1980s, but that is simply when it first made it onto television, notably in 2 Live Crew’s “Me So Horny” (1989). American television is heavily censored. Also, black music and dance, especially in the 1950s and 1960s, was “cleaned up” for white audiences. In any case, much of the supposed booty dancing in American hip hop videos is just booty shaking, not particular dances.
Views: Some consider booty dancing, at least in particular forms, as something that should not be done in public. This is mostly a Western view. In West Africa in the 1930s it was considered to be pretty ordinary stuff – it was Western dances, where the partners touch each other, sometimes body to body, that were seen as a bit too much.
Overlaid on top of that are white hang-ups about the “ghetto booty” of black women – like where they see Jennifer Lopez’s (Latina) booty as beautiful, but Serena Williams’s (black) booty makes them uncomfortable.
That in turn leads to black shame among some white-minded blacks.
And, add to all that, black men making women into sex objects in hip hop and dancehall videos, based to a large degree on their butts.
The unfortunate misogyny by black men and the creepy hypersexualization by white men makes it next to impossible for American culture to process booty dancing in healthy ways.
Thanks to commenter Peanut for suggesting this post.
See also:
- Josephine Baker
- big bottom girls
- Sarah Baartman
- The Jezebel stereotype
- black shame
- My favourite, the booty drop:
Cool post. I think there is a huge difference between shaking your butt and doing a booty dance. In fact there is a dance call yiking that looks pretty cool and kinda intricate. I saw some Youtube vids. I don’t have a typical “black girl booty” so I just stand against the wall during the booty dances… ~Sigh~
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Im sorry, Abagond, I only saw open thread this morning , where you asked for some info on Brazil, I sent you a lot of info but I now see Im too late….Ill bring it in here as we go
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this is as good a place to start as any…Baile Funk
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(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kN5mMB0pmgA)
more Baile Funk
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(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ei5I6uDq6Ds)
great shot of passistas integrating rebolado into their samba
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@ B.R.
Thanks for the info! I received your emails, but it was too late. I will try to work in at least some of the information later today. Of course you can expound at length here in the comments.
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I would garner to think that the overall objectification of women as sexual objects on a systemic level may also be responsible for booty dances struggling to get past a barrier of acceptability.
While women are currently pushing to have their sexual freedom and enjoyment considered normal and healthy, it is still difficult to support something which tends to enforce the mindset.
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The word for the Jamaican form — “whining” or “wining” — is a relative of the English “wind”, as in “wind up my waist”, as sung by Althea and Donna in the immortal “Uptown Top Ranking” (“Gi’ meh likkle bass leh meh win’ up meh waist”).
This move is often incorporated into the style of dance known as “rub-a-dub”. Way back in the day yours truly used to frequent a former red vinyl Italian restaurant converted into a Caribbean club way down on Rosecrans in Compton with a dawtah from Belize, who would dance the rub-a-dub all night long. The men drank Guiness or Red Stripe, the women drank Guiness or Harvey’s Bristol Creme, and they served an awesome plate of curried goat with peas & rice from a little window in the back.
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Mapouka dance have been sexualized by people from Ivory Coast. This original version :
And that, modern version :
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I can appreciate a good dance like the rest of them. Yet this makes me think about Sara Baartman and her life story. Where does one draw the line of admiration of the African woman’s physique and objectifying?
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these are important origins of samba, Samba de Roda, that go pretty far back. You can see the natural hip movements ingrained in the dance and many Afro diasporic dances have this
Maroundou, i look forward to watching your clips, too bad you have to bring up sexual objectification, I think that is irrevalent
Im sorry Abagond, I wish I could have gotten the info to you sooner, I would agree Josaphine Baker was doing a form of sesual booty dancing.
How do we seperate booty dances from those that have natural booty movement and those dances specificly made to draw attention to the booty?
Brazil has dances people do together as couples that shake the booty a lot, like Lambada
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Life learner I dont think we should draw the line, its dance….cultural represion is the real origin of racism and the west and Islam and Christianity and Judiesm all, in their essence, would condemn Afro diasporic dances…these booty dances are just exageratet movements in the pelvic area…it releases pent up sexual tension as much as anything, and its a gift from the ancient afro diaspora
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I find these types of dances in Africa, the Carribean and south America to be much more subtle and interesting than the North American version, which is much more straight sexual and not particularly interesting to do or to look at. The fact that it’s called “booty” dancing in the North America is quite revealing. In other places it has a name that tells its story.
From Senegal to Congo, there are A LOT of variants and a Congolese cannot dance the Senegalese one as well as and vice versa. The Senegalese is extremely energetic, while the Congolese is very intricate and subtle (as Cleonette said for others too).
Also, I have always enjoyed watching them done by women who wear clothes they use in the dance than partly naked women or when I would go dance I would always wear very fluid clothes that make the dance (and other dances too, like couple dances that makes you wave and swirl) much more attractive.
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^”in the North American version”, I meant
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Maroundou, I have never been to a party or dance where the dance would go that far… Never seen an African woman bare her butt during the dance… Is that something new ? I haven’t been dancing much these last years… because my husband is not really interested in dancing apart from zouk…
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Cornlia, as usual, you are seriously out of touch…what do you think “baile funk” is? What in gods name do you mean? You actualy think baile funk is more subtile than anything America…there you go with your uptight sexual objectivication mixed with “its American and Ameican thinking..” you are a peice of bigoted work
Maroundou, Im going to be making some pretty brutal criticisms coming up in this thread, I can see that its going to go the uptight repressed route and I am going to stand up against that with all that I can muster…I work with booty dancers, its in the culture, and when we do a funk, when we use passistas dressed in sensual costumes, and some go into baile funk moves, it is the serious stuff
I dont understand Afro diasporic people buying into white western hung up political and religious agendas who try to define their cultures
This is going to be long thread again like the porn thread, I got a lot to say about hung up repressed people who want to stiffle and bury and destroy something so beautiful , cultural and valuable as booty dancing
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Cornlia, you can youtube Caribbean dances of a similar nature and see that they are just as sexual as American versions, if not even more so, and a lot more rowdy. I’ve seen some Caribbean dances that look like domestic violence.
I’ve never been a fan of the booty dances, but as a younger person I don’t have any context for them than other than rap videos and people trying to imitate video girls. Most women dance like this while being called all manner of foul language, so it hard for me to see it as positive or respectable.
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http://rollingstone.uol.com.br/noticia/rio-aprova-lei-que-transforma-funk-em-patrimonio-cultural/
Cornlia, down in Brazil , they just passed a law saying “baile funk”, in all its booty shaking , is deemed “patrimonio cultural”
I have to listen to feminist uptight doofus stiff crying about sexual objectification, (nothing personal to you , Maraondou, I am speaking generaly), but, in Brazil , it is deemed valuable cultural expresion…which is exactly what it is..
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Solesearch, in Brazil, passistas in samba costumes doing a “rebolado” , is just about the most sensual expresion you can find anywhere on the planet…and Cornlia thinks it is more subtile in South America…I am bowling over in stitches at that statement…I mean, Cornlia, way to just reveal who you really are
America does throw in their repression and make it raunch, any males who rank on women dancing like that, any religious stiffs that rank on it, any feminist women that rank on it, they are the ones with the problem…forget the men who make these statemtents, the women who dance , they love to dance that way…they arnt going to let any horrible comments by people who really have hangups, stop them from going ahead…and this has been the history of these dances in the Ameicas, in Brazil, in the States, when sensual dances come into the framework, they are always met met with condemnation and ridicule from uptight western values that have culturaly repressed expresion in the Ameicas since slavery…Islam is no differant…this culture has been repressed buried and destroyed every step and it just keeps evolving
I debated with someone on a jazz blog about Josephine Baker and he said she was sexualy exploited for dancing she did, and I said, no , she probably enjoyed the dancing she did, it was racism that is what she had to deal with , not that she was exploited for her dancin
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http://www.dancadesalao.com/agenda/raizes.php
“Umbigada,
Dança originária de Angola e do Congo, trazida pelo escravos, é uma das danças mais antigas executada no Brasil. É realizada, ao ritmo do Batuque africano, formando um círculo de participantes em volta do dançarino(s) solista. O dançarino executa um coreografia sensual e ao convidar o próximo dançarino para entrar no círculo, o faz tocando seu umbigo no dele”
This link, talking about origins of some Brazilian dances , goes into the Umbrigada, and sais the coreography executes sensual movements where they bump lower abdomans together and it sais the origins are from Angola and the Congo, which is certainly indicating that sensual origins in Afro diasporic dances go back before the 15 hundreds and were brought over in slavery…I think they go back thousands and thousands of years
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M3BNcQnZsU) here is a tame versoin of this folklorico dance , teaching tourists, the dance from slavery times was more sensual you can be sure
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@BR
Can you tell me more about the state of feminine objectification in Brazil? Are women as devalued in Brazil as they are in anglo culture? What is the state of gender equality? Is feminine expression, outside of sexuality, as repressed? How is the equality of employment? I apologize for asking this all of you, but you seem as if you may have first hand knowledge, and I am woefully lacking in time to do my own research, but it would make a big difference in a critical assessment of the viewpoints concerning this. Thanks.
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wanipimao, Im happy to try to answer you..one has to ask what they define “feminine objectification”? If militant feminists define it as dressing in string bikinis, which some have, then we would have a clash of definitions.
You cant define Brazil using American standards, it is the most sensual country in the world…women love being sensual
there is discrimination against women, violence against women , but important to know that it has nothing to do with the sensuality.There is machoism, but, I would say feminine expresion is expressed greatly in sensuality, if you mean in areas outside of sensuality and sexuality, I cant say its anything to trumpet over anyone, but, the president is a woman, there are many examples of artists, actrisses, etc, but, I would say the USA would have more of a diologue on it…the way there is more of a diologue about racism…racism in Brazil is large, but, differant from the USA
many men kill women because they broke up with them, that is always in the news
but I can guarentee you, this has nothing to do with the attitudes about sensuality….
Brazil is a country in the Americas, colonised by European Portuguese, it has all the trappings of any other country in the Americas, but, they are advanced in terms of sensuality and how it can play out in your daily life
someone else may give you a differant take , but that is mine
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(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP74II1YxHs)
Cornlia, you also imply Africa is more subtile than the USA? I thought you knew Africa? I dont claim to know on the ground Africa , but, I sure know cultural things you seem to not be aware of…hey, lets face it, many Americans know nothing of their culture and history…zip…Im not surprised you , A French woman married to an Afrianc (forgot which country) or many Africans themselves , really dont know many things about the culture from the area they come from…again, Im not claiming to be any expert, but, I work with Afro diaspoiric dancers , sometimes mainlining the direct influences from where they came from in ancient Africa,like dances in Candomble , Im studying right now various breakdowns in grooves from Candomble and the names of the Orixais they represent…I already work with expert dancers…and I tie so much very heavily into ancient traditional African cultures I study and have been studying most of my life, in terms of what the beat is and how you execute it and some of the dances that go with it although not being scholorly about each name and dance…but I know right where to go if I want to expand on that
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B.R. Please stop talking to me, that will be easier to handle. I hadn’t watched your Baile Funk link before I posted. Now I am biggoted too. WTH. You are some crazy dude, I’m telling you.
I talk about what I know about: the African countries I’ve been to and know, the people I know and danced with, North America and Europe. Things have changed since, true, I need to update my knowledge. But it is also interesting to see how things have evolved towards a more obviously sexual and, as Solesearch pointed to, not so healthy evolution for women in general. You think what you want of it, I don’t care.
My experience of African/Caribbean dances then was that a woman never showed her naked butt, except for very short glimpses in the Senegalese dances, under the one or two layers of heavy colored dresses. I attended several of those spontaneous dances in the streets of Dakar 24 years ago.
I don’t know what your problem is with me, but you do have a serious one. Leave me alone now. And continue talking about what you know. Stop talking TO people, ABOUT people you don’t know, talk ABOUT things.
Da*n it.
Solesearch, thanks for the info and update… I was used to French-speaking Caribbean dances “in the past”, and maybe they have evolved into more obviously sexualized types of dances too. I remember Jamaican dances were much more into the “booty” aspect than the Martinique or Guadeloupe ones at the time. As said, since I married, I haven’t been out so much and have been out of touch (paradoxically, some would think, since my husband is African. Btw, he would say the woman in Maroundou’s link is a whore. And most of his family would to. Shut up B.R. I know what I’m talking about here).
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(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQUWyt2Bxek)
one of the most ancient cultures in Africa, Igbo Nigerian, this one is for you, Heather, its got men in it too, you can clealy see roots of heavy pelvic thrusts ingrained right into the dances
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“This is going to be long thread again like the porn thread, I got a lot to say about hung up repressed people who want to stiffle and bury and destroy something so beautiful , cultural and valuable as booty dancing”
You really are some crazy dude.
Who EVER said that ? So people have to agree with YOUR take so that it’s real ? People’s experience and knowledge doesn’t count ? You even know better than “Afro diasporic people buying into white western hung up political and religious agendas who try to define their cultures” ?
Have you ever been to Africa ?
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“Cornlia, down in Brazil , they just passed a law saying “baile funk”, in all its booty shaking , is deemed “patrimonio cultural”
WHY why why are you addressing ME on this ? WHY ? What did I say about it ?
NOTHING.
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Oh, okay.
So here is a classified as “white” American male living in Brazil lecturing Africans about Africa but I am the one doing it…
Now I get you.
Please just stop using my name, B.R.
Tell other people what you know and stop inventing things about others.
Not all Africans are the same, B.R., they don’t all see and appreciate things in the same as others do, or you do, for that matter.
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Ill have to talk about Cornlias arguments, instead of a direct debate, like I prefer ,Im happy not to talk with her, but, I cant let such ignorance keep flowing…does Cornlia think I cant bring traditional African dances in that dont have bear breasts and near nudity?
Too bad Cornlia has to be the example here, but , she charges in ,talking about this subject and making “America” the center again , I have no choice but to address this kind of thinking…her husband call certain dancers “w hor es”…I mean what am I supposed to say about that…Im not going to insult Cornlias husband, but, like I said, just because someone is African doesnt even mean they know all about all the cultures…Americans sure dont know their own culture…they really really dont know squat about their own culture
I am going to make it clear, Im going to battle repressed , ignorant, stiff notions about booty dancing, loaded with referances to sexual objectification
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@ B.R.
Please do not address Cornlia. Also, please make your points without making personal remarks – that amounts to an ad hominem. This is a warning so that you will not be surprised if I start deleting some of your future comments.
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Im not lecturing anybody, its just a fact that lots of Americans dont know their cultures, and, its the same for Africans , its the same for Brazilians…there is nothing about a lecture there
I even said , I dont consider myself and expert on the ground, but, Im a profesional drummer who accompanies high levals of Afro diasporic dancing, including blatent referances to cultures that came directly from ancient Africa…this is my profesion…for more than 50 years…I find it really interesting that doesnt account for anything…does Corlia think her forays into a few popular dances really gives her any incite into what it takes to deal with the higher levals of what these cultures represent?
Cornlia doesnt make the rules here, I can address her arguments that are weak
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Abagond, I wrote the last statement before you said that
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booty popping:
some people are actually talented, like this guy
I have come to the conclusion that absence of clothes that cover your entire butt is what makes it disgusting, to me at least.
for example:
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” find these types of dances in Africa, the Carribean and south America to be much more subtle and interesting than the North American version, which is much more straight sexual and not particularly interesting to do or to look at. ”
Abagond, I certainly wont mention her anymore but I feel I at least want to show her why I called her out on “baile funk”, which is more powerful than anything ever shown in “Tip Drill”
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And B.R. again, we are interested in your experience. Thank you.
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i don’t know all that performance art or latin and african music per say, but that booty drop song it is how girls sometimes dance in the club, not even like a ‘strip club’ or anything, you just let her do her thing… it’s great going out on a friday or saturday night with a good dj, i wouldn’t worry about people who read too much in to it they are probably home blogging or something anyway
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yeah br that’s interesting i’m reading up on baile funk
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I used to dance Funana Dance (Cabo Verde) and Lambada.
Funana
I loved it.
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To the general blog, what I know amounts to working with African musicians, 8 years in New York, working with all kinds of dance companies , including on film sets like Fame, and styles of dance and working in Chicago with dancers trained in the Cathyran Dunham technique, my experiance with drum dance is a whole lot more than just Afro Brazilian
But, being intimitly immersed with Candomble dancing is one direct mainline into African concepts that are ancient, they are the ones that arrived with slavery…
Im just going to say it again, just because someone is from somewhere or is of an ethnic background, that doesnt mean they know about their culture at all…
Its not bragging to say this is my profesion and this is insight it gives me from having to go deeper into depth about it than the average person walking the street , whether in Brazil, America or Africa….I never have been to Cuba , but I know a lot about cascara and clave and mambo
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“I debated with someone on a jazz blog about Josephine Baker and he said she was sexualy exploited for dancing she did, and I said, no , she probably enjoyed the dancing she did, it was racism that is what she had to deal with , not that she was exploited for her dancing”
I’m not a fan of jazz so I don’t know much about it but I believe you can enjoy something and still be exploited for it.
Marc Lamont Hill explains the issue a lot better than I can. Everyone should watch this entire video as it explains the issue from a anti-racist perspective and an anti-sexism aka feminist perspective which it seems a lot of male anti-racists have a hard time understanding.
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Aba
I find these Original dances to be very entertaining and beautiful in a subtly erotic way. The issue I have with them is this: Black women have been at the forefront of sexual abuse since the European laid eyes on us.
How do we express our culture with pride WITHOUT making it a demeaning example of a black woman’s alleged sexual promiscuity? Our natural physique makes the Anglo world uncomfortable, angry and jealous. That’s why we are demonized for doing something as natural as breathing: Dance.
I’m at a loss for how to enjoy this dance and not promote female sexual deviancy.
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@solesearch tryin to go deep with you here…
if you take out the ‘meme’ of the concept of the the male’s commentator’s perception of the hulking brute cariacture., which was clearly shared with others…
so are you saying the woman was wrong that it was an assertion of femaleness female pride or something like that in general being on the cover blah blah with lebron james a very famous athelete?
i mean a girl knows when she dances good and everyone else knows too…
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I want a booty that I can build a nest in; a real ba-donk-a-donk that a brother can hibernate inside during the cold winter months.
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I find most if not all of your observations about race “on point”. This one in particular because of well my “assets”. It’s quite noticeable in society how non blacks are praised for having the same assets as blacks. However, on a black person it becomes something to be either ashamed of or hyper-sexualized.
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No, that’s not what I’m saying, I think, I don’t really understand what you’re saying. I didn’t hear her say anything about femaleness. The brute caricature wasn’t shared the white guy and the woman in the video. Did you watch the entire video?
The black guy, Dr. Marc Lamont Hill, is trying to explain to the woman and the white guy why the image is so problematic. They(well mostly the white guy, who proved himself to be an idiot before the debate even began) believe that since Lebron has no problem with it then there is no issue. Marc points out that they and he wouldn’t say that about the depiction of women in rap videos/music, even though those same women don’t see anything wrong with it and definitely don’t feel exploited.
They then go on to say you can’t compare the two.
I feel that most male anti-racists specifically B.R., since he made the comment, would understand the issue in relation to racism perpetuated by whites against blacks and agree that Lebron James perception of it doesn’t make it not problematic. Just as the commentators were able to understand the issue once it related to women being degraded by men, but were able to dismiss it when it came to racism.
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And I disagree its a lie,there has always been an evolution of these dances and always somene saying its sexualy degrading…always
uptightness is the order of the day
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I mean thank the living gods in the heavens Brazil knows how to exposr the backside…I mean it gets ludicriss hearing that that is the litmus test for sexual exploitation….thank god for brazil and all the exposed backsides that have pushed this culture to the forefront, Brazil is the most sensual country in the world
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Thanks peanut for the blog suggestion. 🙂
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well i am just at dancing as a social normal activity in public as opposed to porn and so forth going back a few threads…the meme thing i kind of saw it but not really until recently, and you’re saying its a pervasive problem in the media industry
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nobody else gave them air time except fox news?
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I think booty dancing is a real dance when done correctly. I saw a couple vids where it was like belly dancing and not sexualized. Its when people wear thongs, and short tight shorts then it becomes sexualized and I don’t find it appealing. I think samba is cool and you really have to have skill to be able to do it. Its just funny to me how some people call everything ghetto or degrading that they don’t understand or isn’t a part of their culture. It seems like America sexualizes things that aren’t even sexual in nature to the people who do it. Its like all booty dancing is ghetto to them, breastfeeding is nasty, and sex is something to be ashamed of. Then they want to attack people that have a different culture and don’t see all this stuff as sexual but a way of life. smh
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In Somalia, we have a cultural booty dance called niiko. Because our country is an Islamic country it’s really something you only see girls do together when there are no men around. Unsurprising, there ares some videos on youtube.
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I think in many feminist arguments it is not the dance itself that is sexually degrading, but how the dance is used by society to enforce the objectification of women. Much in the same way that the female enjoyment of sex is used to enforce an idea of female sexual deviance and therefore support rape apologist arguments.
Feminist argument would posit that enjoying sex and sexuality to its fullest (and even most abnormal) state should not even be considered deviant, but normalized as women are fully capable of enjoying all levels of physicality (and so why the double standard of restrictions?). However, the devaluing of women into sexual objects instead of people erects a barrier that inhibits women from enjoying all aspects of their sexuality and physicality.
In maroundou’s example of modern sexualization from the Ivory Coast, if it were to be assessed with an ethnocentric American viewpoint, we could easily interpret the objectification evident in the video, as instead of being revered for her skills in muscle isolation and rhythmic movement, she is portrayed as a device of entertainment to be enjoyed and judged by men. Even more upsetting could be the way the men walked around her as she undulated herself upon the floor, as if they were assessing a prize cow for future bidding. Harsh? Indeed. (However, I would also like to point out that this is just an example, and it would be unwise to assess that video with such a viewpoint, and should instead be approached relative to the actual culture).
So feminist argument can really struggle with concepts such as the booty dance, because while it is something so beautiful and sensual and powerful (and normal, damnit) to women, it is at the very same time something used against them to enforce their second-class citizenry.
Familiar tactics?
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Thanks, Peanut, you will get back there again, my son just got back from Salvador with the most incredible DVD of Candomble
So, wikipedia is going to be the judge of Baile Funk, while it is deemed a cultural patrimony in Brazil, the day I let wikipedia dictate what baile funk is suposed to be is the day i freeze in hades
Ignorance is bliss when people want to be uptight, as Ive said, history is replete with Afro diasporic dances being lambasted for being sexualy exploited
You could read those exact criticisms of Samba back in the 20’s, of jazz dancing in the twenties
uptightness keeps recycling
Its amazing the amount of sex words you can find in early jazz, yet we see the uptightness now in words from baile funk
and its funny about people being uptight about nude backsides when you can find nude backsides in ballet and modern dance but these people wont say anything about that, no, only afro diasproric dances and a dance like samba that the passistas expose their nude backsides
uptightness all the way
with all the talk in wiki about sex in the favelas, Brazil is no more higher than aids than a lot of countries, it is no more higher in rapes than a lot of countries
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I had tremendous disagreements with the Brazil post, the author admititly does not participate in Afro Brazilian culture, she doesnt really get it at all
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ooooh, booty shakin *_*
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Thank god , Brazil is the most sensual country in the world, all the uptighness can never take that away
Here is great example of uptightness and Brazilian culture, especialy look at the uptight comments
http://blackwomenofbrazil.co/2012/06/29/sexual-connotations-associated-with-the-brazilian-black-man-and-mulata-woman-positive-images-or-dehumanizing-stereotypes-2/
Thanks Peanut for hipping me to this blog
this is a perfect example of people not getting it and very uptight …they put down sexual connotations in the “mulata” image in Brazil, but the only pictures they show, and wow they are nice , of the women are of passistas, who are from the heart of the Samba schools and very much in the fabric of black culture
Its simple, you can be uptight and stiff and repressive or enjoy culture
if men cant hancle it and get uptight and dog, that is their represion, as well as the people crying sexism and the religious fundamentalists, they show more about their personal hangups…Im happy to check out culture that is national patrimony and is fun
Brazil is the most sensual country in the world…thank god
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What is really funny is, people will rail against nude arse and exposed backside but, in ballet, two people dancing the Pas de deux, can be one of the most sensualy explicit exhibition of sex positions…its outragously sexual..delicously sexual..as well as you can see nude arse and backside in ballet…what hypocracy…it boggles…
and, when I was young and we used to slow grind…sheesh that had no hip grinding but it was really close to being in a sexual embrace and feeling a women extremly close , more so than any booty dance…ah but no problem with that
no, only Afro diasporic dances get this kind of represion ..its cultural anialation is what it is…dismiss , condemn,destroy , bury and call it sexualy exploitive
the Lambada, has two people really grinding their hips back and forth in close contact….its like two people dancing a booty dance together
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Nope, its not about disagreeing, its about wading through stiff uptight repressive positions that will say things about booty dancing that have been said about a variety of Afro diasporic dances throughout history
If people want to be in denial about that and think its all about me just flailing away, they can go ahead and think anything they want, but, truth is truth and Afro Braziliand dances have been persecuted since they brought slaves out of Africa, including the Arabs
I mean the amount of words with sexual connotations in blues jazz samba hip hop and rock and roll etc is unending…history bears out that they are only words and that the culture of the music and dance always was what is lookded back on…that is what is looked back on in jazz, in samba, blues…sexual innuations are not dwelled on and gain somekind of acceptance, jazz itself is a sexual connotation word…this is the truth and fact…we remember jazz but not the dirty words…the dances “black bottom” “shag” “shimmy” all have sexual connotations….
uptightness rules
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I debated with that women on her own blog, she admits she doesnt practice Afro diasporic culture, she likes heavy metal, how can she make a comment on it, that is informed? She is not immersed in Afro diasporic dance and drumming…PERIOD
I know plenty of Brazilians who would disagree with her
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No one is assasinating her credentials, she is an anthropology proffesor in Rio who admits she likes heavy metal and doesnt have an affinity for Afro diasporic drum dance,she is not immersed in the culture my wife is , i respect her opinion on that subject more.
People who dont have immersion in the culture are going to criticise it and not give it the respect it deserves like deriding exposed backsides
Yes I disagree with that
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“Cornlia,
I find these types of dances in Africa, the Carribean and south America to be much more subtle and interesting than the North American version, which is much more straight sexual and not particularly interesting to do or to look at. The fact that it’s called “booty” dancing in the North America is quite revealing. In other places it has a name that tells its story.”
Linda says,
Cornelia, don’t blame the Yanks for this one…this one can be placed at Jamaica’s doorstep 🙂 black Americans got their “booty shake” from Jamaica’s “dutty whine” — the corrupted version of a classic dance.
The Jamaican “dutty whine” is the Jamaican younger generations over-sexualized version of Calypso/ Soca “whining” that my parents did back in the 60’s & 70’s and the “rub-a-dub” /dancehall style from the 80’s & 90’s.
Even though Jamaicans made “whining” popular, we didn’t create it.
My understanding of it’s history is that the dance came from the Calypso/Soca music scene, which originated out of Trinidad and is a fusion of west African “Kaiso” music (by way of the African slaves out of Martinique) and East Indian “Chutney” music.
The dance movements from both these musical styles (African and Indian) was combined to create the “wining” movement of the dance.
If you’ve heard the song, “Dollar wine”, then you have seen how “real” whining was done in the Caribbean back then – it went from being subtle and suggestive(as you pointed out) to being energetic and erotic — there are many different styles in the dance.
the most basic form of whining is to stand in a stationary stance and do simple hip/waist movements — at parties, we used to have contests to see who could “go the lowest” to the floor while whining and staying in place — that was our version of “grace” on the dance floor!
(sometimes the room was so packed, you had no choice But to whine in place) — that’s where the “jukking” and “rub-a-dub” style came from that became popular in Jamaican dancehall.
I love the old-style whining that had subtle shades of sexuality — not blatant, in your face, no taste, “shlorish” a’s movements that are now passed off as dancing….anyway, just must my opinion… like buttholes as the saying goes…carry on.
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In the link I brought in about exploitation of passistas, there is a section where a Brazilian “scholor” writes of the gyrating hips of the samba dancer as being degrading…my god , if this is the point of view of Brazilian scholors on the subject, they are part of the problem,,,I will opose them with every fiber in my being….they totaly missed it, they just dont get it…but,this is quite normal in the histories of the Americas…thank god the culture is so strong, always comes gyrating right through all the represion and urtightness to shine a beautiful light on the world
I am so thanful for having been exposed to the incredible sensuality that is in Brazil
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WHINE UP!!!!
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Bulanik, I’m really not sure. Black men don’t have to worry about sexism and white women don’t have to deal with racism on the contrary they benefit from the oppression of those other groups. So it probably is hard for these two oppressed groups to give up those positions of power. Although you would think it would make them empathetic to other oppressed groups, I think it is as just as likely to reinforce their own bigotry. Plus it gives them a chance to be allies with the top dogs, white males, to feel accepted by the white male supremacist society on some level.
But like I said I really don’t know, probably same reason some people don’t get it all.
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First, If you include Ana, you have two scholars, and if you include her husband, on the record as not liking baile funk, you have three shcolars, add in the narrow minded club owners and promotors, and ,you have a crowd of people who will be happy to dismiss this culture.
By the way, it was Ana’s point in her peice that she is not the stereotypical “Afro Brazilian” the black Americans come down to places like Salvador , to look for some kind of “Afro Brazilian ” culture. And she was not that type of stereotype, she was into heavy mettle etc So, its no put down on my part , that is her position…and, I dont agree…there is incredible knowledge for any American , that they can gain from Salvador…my son is going up there a lot, to mix his CD and he is bringing back treasure troves of culture , he has enriched his life, I can see this…he is Brazilian…and American..and it is visible and passed on to me
And, lets look at the wiki postition on Baile Funk…Baile Funk is huge, it represents a lot of things, there are comercial baile funks, women owned baile funk records, it is more than just the lyrics you keep bringing in over and over.There are also violent lyrics about killing police, threatening other people. But, it is too big to just be that, and, the thug part still is a record to be looked back on of how some young men felt…as expresion….that movies have also….movies have all the things these lyrics talk about also…
But, most important, its the dance and beat that will be the trademark and the most important thing…The music is not the top notch based on some kind of depth of composition, Im not really defending lyrics as saying they just arnt the important part, and, its in other aspects of idioms of music and movies in cross cultures…Baile Funk is a cultural movement that is a cultural patrimony of Brazil, its history…no matter what any one thinks, I like it better than Brazilian rock, which the scholars I mentioned above are fans of…and, I would rather have that discusion with them personaly instead of through this blog , so, I will cease to discuss them
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Peanut, thanks for the link. Soukous is/was my favorite. But I have NEVER heard of it as “booty dancing”. Never ever. It’s soukous… I will comment further on it. I had already posted links to my favorite soukous singer a while ago. This is the type of music that you just cannot sit and listen to. You have to dance.
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I honestly don’t know how to comment on this post, or where to start. I will apologize if I offend anyone when I say, I LOVE BIG BUTTS!!!
When I see a woman with a big booty, I can’t help but at least get a glimpse of it, unless I’m driving. When I see them jiggling while dancing in my younger days, it’s like being mesmerized. You can’t help but stare at the awesomeness of the booty. You even want to dance with that girl from behind. I never thought of it as nothing more or less than a dance, and I still get attracted seeing it in motion.
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Linda, thanks for the info.
The description you gave of this style of dance corresponds to what I was about to post about.
We did that too at the parties I used to go to, which were organized every Saturday night by these people:
Maybe some here have already heard about them or heard one of their songs as they were famous at a point in Africa and the Caribbean.
One of their younger brothers was first a student in my clas, then my boyfriend and then a friend and the whole family became friends. They had people coming to our town (which was were I studied) Mulhouse, do concerts and parties, like Jocelyne Beroard, Kassav’, and Soukous stars from the Congo. They knew everyone so it was cool to have them as friends…
They had that place called “La Salle de la Mer Rouge”, that was in the middle of a bunch of empty abandoned industrial halls where all the Africans and Caribbeans of Mulhouse and around (a lot working for Peugeot) and quite a few locals (Alsacians) would come and dance with their families (from kids to grandmas) on Saturday nights. They exfiltrated the “bad” crowds at the door. A few would get “bad” inside on the Martinique Rum.
So this is where I actually learnt to dance, and we would do these “getting down” parts of Soukouss where the little kids, the teenagers, the grandmas and grandpas would all show their prowess at tilting, turning, balancing, breaking, saccading their butts. All in a great circle, and everyone would go in the center in turn, alone, in couple (girl/girl or boy/girl). It was such a great time. I don’t know if this still exists as such.
We would dance on this, for instance (that’s my favorite, and Peanut may know her), which I already posted in another post:
When I was a student in the US, at the same period, I was the one DJing in the international parties, I had all those musics on tape (I still do, I am mp3ing them now) which I had bought or copied on this radio which still has the same program with a different name. It used to be called “Couleur Tropicale”, now it’s called Republik Kalakuta:
http://www.rts.ch/couleur3/programmes/republik-kalakuta/
I still get their podcasts.
Thanks for the post, Abagond, it awakened great souvenirs.
And for sure there are “booty dancings” (not called that way in many places) for everyone to choose from.
And to conclude, here is the Senegalese dance I was referring to before someone called me a biggot, where you rarely see a piece of skin, but isn’t it much better that way ? Senegalese women LOVE and wear the best fabrics in the whole world. They and their men (men sew in Africa, a lot and very well) are extraordinary tailors. And they know how to use them in the dance ! Watch:
And they do the best dance, imho. Because they have kept it the way it was.
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Yondo Sister has a bunch of videos on YouTube, for those interested. Her music is great too.
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And this Ivorian singer and his dancers should be WORLDWIDE stars. They are the best !
In this song, he says it’s better not to see everything. The title of the song is “Voilà string”: “Here is the thong”.
http://www.afriuka.com/videochannel/826/meiway-voilà-string/
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Bébé DK sings about being polite and respecting one’s parents… and dances like an Angel.
More Meiway. A lot of humor, and “des rondeurs” dancing on top too…
All this from the biggot.
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And Bébé DJ rang a bell … 2010 Soccer World Cup song… Shakira (who dances extremely well too). The original was Cameroonian, but I can’t remember the name, so I can’t look for it right now.
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And Bébé DJ killed it here:
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Very hot Senegalese one. Notice however that the only men are the drummers… I am not even sure that this was supposed to be seen on YouTube…
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Another Senegalese one (there are a lot on YouTube). Unfortunately the ravages of skin bleaching in Senegal are visible too. Hopefully they don’t lose their dances.
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Have you noticed the design on one of the dresses in one of the videos ? That’s what clothes are for !
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Should I comment on this one? It seems that it is about dancing. Well, in the west, as usual, the dance, what ever you call it, has been harnessed for business purposes. In the west sex sells. That is why it has transformed from dance celebrating basic human emotions and feelings into butt wiggling and sort of clumsy ritualistic proposal of coitus.
What has happend for this kind of dancing happened wasy back for oriental dancing, specially female oriental dancing. Originally oriental dancing was womens dance, it was done in women only celebrations, at child birth etc. The whole idea was that it belonged to women, it was their thing and it was their way of celebrating their bodies etc. Eventually the women danced for their husbands and so on and the thing became public. Now it is know in the west as Bellydancing.
As for looking degranding culture around this, I think it is very clear that this dance, just like oriental dance much earlier, transmuted into something else in the west. Using the now popular word: it got seriously pimped from its African roots.
@BR:
We all know that you do not like feminists and that equality between sexes is a difficult concept for you, but isn’t that “uptightness” argument getting a bit worn out? I mean, it might have been cool in 1960’s, but who seriously now a days think that seeing women mainly as sexual objects yearning for male organs is liberating?
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Idk why some people look down on twerking. Sure it can be sexually suggestive, but what the hell is wrong with adults expressing themselves sexually? That is one thing I will never understand about American culture. Why are we so damn uncomfortable with sex?
note: I am not implying that twerking, etc. is always meant to be sexual. A lot of women seem to simply do it for fun
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No mention of Tahitian Dancing?
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absolutly to Tahitian dancing,,,it is a differant rhythm concept from the Afro diaspoea
Sam, you are so true to form….stiff…you have no idea of culture,,,passistas are the dancers who bare their backsides, and, rebola,and they are on the leval of the top ballet dancers in the world, I have worked with passistas and their bare backsides, and I guarentee you ,it is one of the most electrifying experiances in music…much more than rock and roll, These girls face more uptight discrimination and racism than you could imagine. Some of the girls I worked with won Rainha de Carnival in my city, where they come out in string bikinis then unbeleivable sensual bare backsided costumes with feathers (I hear you Peanut), and try to cut their competition in who can dance the best,,,an Afro diasporic tradition. These girls are artists who face stiff repressed criticisms, like “butt wiggling and proposals of coitis” ,I respect them so much , their dedication to their culture,,the discrimination like yours,you insult my intellige ce, what little their is. And I respect feminists who understand the real problems women face, like domestic violence, work force ineqities, not feminists who dont know what women really are and what they want express, and put out the uptight dogmas about what is sexual exploitation
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to the blog, I use bigot to describe how someone might feel about Americans based on how often it comes up and at the feelings towards these dances when the clothes come off…not about referances to great dances with clothes on…just to clarify it to this blog in case i use the term in the future
you know, these dances evolve, and at every step of evolution, they get called exploitive, butt wiggling, bare arsed backsided, etc. This is exactly what has happened in history, it repeats itself, and I will stand up to it…I work with artists who bare their backsides, and rebola, they are incredible, and no stiff uptight repressed opinions are going to go without getting checked
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Some catch up…Solesearch, as you notice, they all agreed the woman in the rap video is exploited….I dont agree with them all about that..I find the whole discussion constrained and painful
Moroundou, I liked both videos…in the second, Ive seen traditional Nigerian videos (for the life of me I cant find them now) where the women were on the floor doing those moves…and , she lifts up her dress to show string bikini, or underwear? I mean I see that everyday I go to the beach on warm days, and the booty shaking in string outfits is all in the culture here
Yes, for those of you who make the distinction between booty shaking with clothes on but with clothes off its sexual exploitation, then you are implicating right down here in Brazil, who have women shaking their booty with their backsides exposed as a deep part of their culture
Yup, the buck stops right here, and as someone who works directly with woman who shake their exposed butts in skimpy outfits, and knows the dedication and hard struggle and discrimination these dancers face, these acuasations of booty wiggling, sexual exploitation and objectification, are personal ( knowing these statements implicate directly dancers I work with and know ) and I despise the dogmad ignorance of culture these statements represent…I dont despise the people who make these statements, I absolutly have no respect for the uninformed repressed opinions….
I have so much respect for these dancers, and, they are not exploited in any sence, they love their work, and, I remember hiring one dancer and saying to wear her passista costume and she arrived with her breasts exposed in her costume… I didnt ask her to dress that way, she wanted to express herself in this manner. Look,besides concerts, we have taken our show with passistas to shopping malls, public open shopping centers, and always have gotten a great reaction with kids looking on and dancing with us
The moments working with the passistas have been some very electrifying moments on stage for me…and, no on here could come close to dancing the samba like they do,a very high leval dance to do right
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Jim,
Tahitian dance is so seductive.
Cornlia,
This show was a scandal in Ivory Coast.
I prefer Mutuashi dance (Congo) :
and Djembe dance (Gabon). Djembe dancers are not sexualized. And i like it. To dance a djembe, you need to move buttock and hips. unfortunately, this video is not explicit.
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This conversation is getting way to, “serious” its time to inject some light heartiness into the equation. ^_^
who wants to dance with me and “Do da butt”? 😀
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Absolutly, its getting too serious…I think Marcus Miller wrote that song, Im not sure
so Im perplexed how some people will accept booty dancing moves like Moroudou brouhght in , with clothes, but wont accept something like this, incredible booty dancing with the backside exposed
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B. R.
Such beautiful women in Brazil, her skin tone,body and her accent is so enchanting. ^_^
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B.R., I’m not surprised that you don’t think those women in rap videos are being exploited. What about Lebron James on the cover of that magazine?
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Peanut, the girl at 0:25 is Bebicia. She’s a very famous Werrason (the singer and his band) dancer. She’s actually one of the most famous Werrason girls. She had a baby a few years ago. I think she’s retired in France now. There used to be lots of videos of her and the other girls from the old Werrason line up on YT. She is an absolutely AMAZING dancer! Good example….
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Yeah, Sondis, I agree…
Solesearch, I thought it was kind of a pained conversation…I dont know exactly why the fuss…I know you can break down all the psychological things ..but that is why I think something like porn hub is more honest “ooh all the threat of the image of a black man with a white woman for what ever reason we are being uptight about these celebrities…….hey, how about lets just go to porn hub and see the honest truth about it…”……arnt there more pressing things about racism to deal with? Of course, Im willing to acknowldege Im not operating on the same mental deck as these individuals…but, that was on Fox news and that is bizzarre in itself….
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Jim,
Great video! That’s “dutty whine”/booty shake done with Grace and class!
In the Caribbean, our traditional Calypso/ Soca “whining” is similar to Pacific islanders traditional “hula” but with a slower tempo…but of course today, the Caribbean dancers incorporate a lot of dancehall moves, so a lot more sexuality is seen in the movements.
Video of traditional soca/chutney moves that are seen in Caribbean “whining”
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Video of traditional kaiso/calypso dance moves that are seen in Caribbean “whining” … the performers also do the “limbo” which is a part of kaiso.
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whew, there it is , butt wiggling exposed backside at its most sensual…the buck stops here in Brazil
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LMAOOOOOO!!!!!!
But on a more important note. Abagond, why are you posting these degrading images of black people? I am used to sow us at our best,but you seem to be more concerned with showing us at our most bestial and demonic, rather than at our most graceful and glorious. In an age were most black men can’t even tie a tie, and most black women don’t know how to stop pushing out babies, you rather titillate, than teach. And if you think that this “booty dancing” is not dangerous, take a look at this:
Conjunctivitis. Crushed orbitals. Damaged Eye sockets. Concussions. Facial injuries so bad that they make Lil’ Wayne’s deformed self look like Morris Chestnut.
Abagond, pleeeeeaaaase remember that you are beacon in the Internet wilderness, a lighthouse in the that vast ocean of blogs. You have a social obligation to us all. Children come to this site as well. Instead of putting up black (mostly women) people making fools of themselves, you should be helping black men, and showing us how to get better options (no, not trannies, you know what I mean). Then , we can rise up together , like the mighty black men we are!!!!
— Signed
Satanforce, a fellow Black Conservative.
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@ Satanforce
LMAO!
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Ok , “pages stuck together with African goo…” blahahahahahaha
that is just the same schtick I saw Sheila E do on stage at the Roxy in 86
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B.R., I have no idea what the phrase “pained conversation” is supposed to mean.
Racism is racism. It all feeds the same monster. Just like all other human beings, black people are capable of being concerned about more than one issue. The representation of black people in the media is no small matter.
If you’re going to be defending the representation of black women in the media, don’t you think you should be aware and concerned about the psychological effects?
While you can be unconcerned with racism and sexism and can just sit around getting your rocks off looking at booty, black women don’t have that luxury.
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That is pretty judgemental, Solesearch…the cover only represented their profesions to me, she is a model, he is a basketball player, who plays hard
You are going to sound like the people on the thread about the person posing the question about are carnival images demeaning to black women, and , the commenters rage how they wont be going to brazil anytime soon, how sexualy objective it is, when, the passistas come from the heart of the favelas in Rio, it is a part of the deep cultural heritage
Bare backsided dancing is accepted, women love it, the shows I brought in were in the daytime Sarturday afternoon…what Im not saying is, they only allow black sensuality and beauty to shine two weeks in carnival, the key positions of the passistas are being taken over by white models and actrisses, and they slowly pust the real passistas, the ones who can really dance down the ladder…from a media that is barely waking up to its racism just now…
These criticisms in that article talked about how demeaning the “gyrating of the hips” is, when a huge number of Afro diasporic dances are based on gyrating of the hips. people have absolutly no idea about what the real culture is or how to have a real discusion about it…instead , we get bogged down again on the racism, capatalism sexism mud
and people here have brought in some absolutly lovely videos they like and accept of women doing very similar moves but with clothes on, yet, if the clothes are off. that is somehow the litmus test of that it is sexualy objective
No ,Soleseach, Im not part of that mentality, I dont want any part of it, I run from it, its one of the reasons I ran to Brazil, And I will ridicule it
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And Solesearch, I dont think over analysing celibrity images for psycho sexual racial implications is the filet mignon of the real problems of fighting racism, its diving too deep into murky cloudy waters of each person’s own sexual hangups mixed with the represions our Judeo/Christian/Islamic laced societies and all their sexual restrictive dogmas..they just seem to cross over into an individual’s own phobias and personal inhibitions…I dont trust it at all, and, dont trust your judgement of me for that reason
I find the more political agendas get mixed into judging the passistas and whether its racist or sexualy objective, the more ignorant the discusion gets
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actualy, Ill throw baile funk to this blood thirsty mob, you all go rip it to shreds and stomp all over it, it wasnt like it is my favorite Brazilian dance anyway, just keep your nervous fingers out of “boquinua de garrafa”…god I love this country,Brazil…I could go out and kiss the ground as I listen to the arguments here
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And, Solesearch, its you who have the luxury of making your statements about me and my position on passistas, a thousand miles away , not really knowing anything about the culture, as we saw here , people trying to call it butt wiggling, asking for coitus, bringing in wiki articles and the dirtiest versions they can find when Im watching comercials down here for the sanitised version of baile funk going out on the market…I mean this is a cultural patrimony, thank god petty criticisms cant affect it, they remind me of Henry Ford and Saayim Qubt talking about jazz…
I am down here and see the struggle of these wonderful passistas, who are liberated and free enough to express their culture, and the racism they face, the put downs and discriminations all too ugly and real…the attemps to dismiss, bury and destroy their culture…they canceled carnival in my city this year, something a mayor could lose election for in other cities , they wont cancel Octoberfest, I asure you, and these girls depend on that little window when their black sensuality and beauty gets to shine and I have seen some of these girls parlay a career out of the recognition they get when they win a contest like Rainha de Carnival, where they are practicly nude the whole time and are dancing a very profound and incredible cultural dance, that I know for a fact they love and are proud to demonstrate
So I really dont have much respect for these judgements coming from a long ways away by people who have no idea of this wonderful culture down here and the sensuality it has dripping out of its expresion
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B.R., my posting of that video and the comment I made had nothing do with passing judgement on women dancing unclothed.
The point I was trying to let Dr. Hill make for me is that exploitation isn’t based on if the allegedly exploited person was a willing and enthusiastic participant.
You keep citing the women’s enjoyment of the half naked dancing as proof that there is nothing wrong with it.
“And Solesearch, I dont think over analysing celibrity images for psycho sexual racial implications is the filet mignon of the real problems of fighting racism, its diving too deep into murky cloudy waters of each person’s own sexual hangups mixed with the represions our Judeo/Christian/Islamic laced societies and all their sexual restrictive dogmas.”
Exposing racial bias in the media, which has a profound effect of people’s attitudes, I think is the filet mignon of solving racism. Most of the contact white people have with black people is through the media and black celebrities. It has been proven that negative images also biases blacks against themselves. Until we change the attitudes of a person and society at large racism will continue. Racist policies and implementation will still continue. Not to say the just dealing with the end result doesn’t have any positive effect, but dealing with the root causes is just much more effective. I believe both methods are needed. Fortunately, black people are capable of carrying out both.
As far as my judgement of you goes, are you talking about this statement:
“While you can be unconcerned with racism and sexism and can just sit around getting your rocks off looking at booty, black women don’t have that luxury.”
If so, I don’t consider that a judgement. It’s a factual statement of how you don’t experience racism and sexism directed at black women. I think you would actually have to be a black woman to experience it the way black women do. The statement was in response to how easily you dismiss the importance of the depiction of black women in the media.
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“These criticisms in that article talked about how demeaning the “gyrating of the hips” is, when a huge number of Afro diasporic dances are based on gyrating of the hips. people have absolutly no idea about what the real culture is or how to have a real discusion about it…instead , we get bogged down again on the racism, capatalism sexism mud
and people here have brought in some absolutly lovely videos they like and accept of women doing very similar moves but with clothes on, yet, if the clothes are off. that is somehow the litmus test of that it is sexualy objective
No ,Soleseach, Im not part of that mentality, I dont want any part of it, I run from it, its one of the reasons I ran to Brazil, And I will ridicule it”
I have no idea what article you are talking about, but this comment goes to show how dismissive you are of racism, capitalism and sexism. In this current day and age, racism, sexism, and capitalism are the standard modus operandi of most countries, including and especially Brazil. Regardless of what culture these dances were derived in/from, in today’s culture they are used to pander to and capitalize on racist and sexist mindsets, maybe not exclusively, but primarily.
In response to your point about the presence or absence of clothes being the litmus test for it being sexually objective, I think you would be hard pressed to find a person man or woman who doesn’t immediately associate a naked, gyrating bum with sex. Regardless of the culture, I’m sure naked, gyrating booty began with sex. It is explicitly sexual.
When this dancing is done for public consumption, with the absence of clothing, it is pornographic and such depictions typically lack any desire to elicit any feelings of love and admiration for the dancer. The dancer is being used for a selfish sexual purpose. Now one could argue that it is mutual exploitation, but I would say, since men and women are not treated equally, it is not. It always comes back to equality.
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@ Bulanik:
I was speaking about not only black women but also, black men. You must also note in which the context i was speaking, regarding when black women are considered, “negro bed wenches” and when black men are “sell outs, when sleeping with a white person.
You only quoted one part but left out everything i had said, which included black men, not just black women:
“You see this all the time with black men, dating fat,over weight and unattractive white women.
White women and men, date black people, when they can’t get someone of their own race.
The majority of white men and women, that look to date black people are usually, very old, over weight, unattractive, sick with a terminal disease, white trash and poor.
I rarely see a rich, young, attractive, physically fit, white man or woman, that would date a black man or woman. ( not counting celebrities, just an average black man or woman )”
I was speaking of whenever a black man or woman, sleeps with a white person, they begin to disassociate from their black culture and race.
I refer to these types of black women as, Negro bed wenches and black men as uncle tom, sell outs.
Not merely for dating, sleeping or marring someone white, makes a black man or woman this way, some may say that but i don’t hold this view.
I mean, if you’re a black woman or man, that has a white person as a partner, yet you still have your black identity and culture, then i would not say this about you.
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I already answer the question, regarding if that booty dancer, would have a white man, if she would be regarded as a Negro bed wench.
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In their desire to fight racism and sexism, they have brought in the less titillating bodies of white women while denying black women opportunities, an expression of beauty and simply made their culture more homogenized and white than before?
I can see why a lot black women wouldn’t care all that much for feminism if the results simply end up being more opportunities and power for white women and less opportunities, power, respect and representation for black women.
It could be these various dances are sexual, they just don’t have the hang ups about sex that we do here in the western cultures.
Also wasn’t that image with the basketball player and the model directly based on racist WWII propaganda?
When it comes to dating out; it seems to involve the extremes, very poor or very rich.
A person’s whose level in society won’t really be affected by their choice to date out.
That and the inability to get somebody in their own race, black or white etc….it’s only when they can’t get someone or someone on the level they would want that people seem to be willing to date out.
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“When this dancing is done for public consumption, with the absence of clothing, it is pornographic and such depictions typically lack any desire to elicit any feelings of love and admiration for the dancer. The dancer is being used for a selfish sexual purpose. Now one could argue that it is mutual exploitation, but I would say, since men and women are not treated equally, it is not. It always comes back to equality”
Solesearch, there is so much to answer you about, but, this right here is so loaded with some kind of psycho sexual judgemental bias , it really reveals your own repressed feelings about erotic and sensualism in art…where do you get who is to be the judge about when this dancing is done for public consumption with the absence of clothing it is pornographic? And, what makes you think someone cant admire the beauty and artistic integrity of the passistas dancing samba and rebolado in near naked costumes? You really insult my intelligence because you better beleive I watch and admire these passistas with as much respect as I used to watch and work with Alvin Ailey dancers. I know there steps and I know and respect so much their ability to pull these incredible dance steps off with the grace and strength that rivals any ballet dancer…but to you its pornographic
Where do you come off as judging as a selfish sexual purpose? I dont have sex with these dancers that I have watched and especialy with the dancers I hire to work for me dressed in near nude costumes…I intensly admire and love the art of the passistas of Rio de Janeiro
No, Solesearch, it reveals your own hangups about nudity and dancing, sensuality and eroticism in art…you dont know , nor really want to take the time to get to know culture, for sure nothing about Samba and Passistas of Rio de Janeiro, where they train the dancers from a very young age to partcipate in the escolas as passistas and to wear the incredible passistas costumes.It comes deep from the comunity…that you know nothing about, but are all too willing to pass judgement on…narrow minded judgement you want to hide behind racism and sexism
You talk about racism? Yes, I dont know how really sad it makes the passistas that work with and for me , to have had their carnival canceled, their only window in a very racist society , to be admired as beautiful women in a media where white women are held up as the standard of high beauty…Yes, I dont know how they must feel when club owners and promoters say they hope I dont bring in the girls in the string bikinis, or just plain show disdain for a samba dancer in all their clothes…I dont know how deeply that hurts them, I only know it hurts me to see it happen to them ,very much, and I try to throw them some work as best I can in that kind of hotile racist market…its a ferocious struggle , but you dont really care because they do dress near naked, and to you its pornography
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No problem, i can care less if you, acknowledge me or not. I’m not here to appease you. That being said…
“The question was: Also, the dancer did not actually dance very much in that video, did she? So far, the other dancers featured on the many other videos on this thread show mostly women from African countries and some Caribbean. Are they somehow less “fun” because they are wearing more clothing?
I never commented on if they are somehow less, “fun” or not. You obviously have me mixed up with someone else as i never said anything regarding, them wearing more clothes and therefore, being less fun.
So why am i obligated to answer your question, when i didn’t say anything about what you’re talking about , when i didn’t say anything about it?
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“In this current day and age, racism, sexism, and capitalism are the standard modus operandi of most countries, including and especially Brazil. Regardless of what culture these dances were derived in/from, in today’s culture they are used to pander to and capitalize on racist and sexist mindsets, maybe not exclusively, but primarily.”
You say Brazil, which does have some capatalistic mind set, but has a communist party also…but, you have to understand,real black Brazilian culture is dismissed and styalised and buried in the mainstream media. The main samba groups who get exposure are called Pagode, and represented by all black male groups that apear on TV shows with in house dancers that are mostly all white. Real passistas, unless they win Pan Am track competitions like one, or become actrises or models, are left out in the dust about having their talent shown…they cant capatalise on their talent and no one is exploiting them, except driving them to accept employment that might be exploitive.
And, that is why Im showing directly the passistas and their marvelous culture, even if its for a few minutes, if it is with the drums in real time, it is a work of art. They are the ones who do expose their backsides, they do, shake and wiggle their booties, they are near naked…I cant listen to these crticisms and not speak out at what I feel is some very backward thinking
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Solesearch, what makes you think, with your 1960’s Black Civil Rights educated American mind set , with what ever religious beleifs and education or just subconciously passed down to you about sex, nudity, eroticism in art, that you can know how an Afro Brazilian woman, can feel, raised in a very differant cultural envirnment , with much differant attitudes about exposing her body, what a passista means to her and how she represents her community by dressing like that and dancing an incredible dance ? in the face of racism , sexism and capatalism / communism
In a sence, you are superimposing your cultural beleifs over hers..presuming you know how she is suposed to feel and what is right and what is wrong for her, reguardless of how she feels….even if the whole country where she lives, has a whole differant attitude about nudity and what body part is their national preferance
I dont think it works that way…I think you have to know the culture of the country you are talking about before you charge in with judgements about how they are suposed to behave in the face of racism , capatalism ( why the hades not communism?) and sexism. They may have differant dynmics and roads to go down to face problems…and especialy judgements about national attitudes about cultureal patrimonies, historic dances and dance movements, beach wear and dance costumes, people sure better educate themselves first before they come in swinging
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B.R.,
“Solesearch, there is so much to answer you about, but, this right here is so loaded with some kind of psycho sexual judgemental bias , it really reveals your own repressed feelings about erotic and sensualism in art”
So analyzing, excuse me, “over analyzing” images of black people for “psycho sexual racial implications” was a non-factor, but analyzing me for “psycho sexual judgmental bias” is all the rage now. Ok, ok, I get it.
“…where do you get who is to be the judge about when this dancing is done for public consumption with the absence of clothing it is pornographic? And, what makes you think someone cant admire the beauty and artistic integrity of the passistas dancing samba and rebolado in near naked costumes? You really insult my intelligence because you better beleive I watch and admire these passistas with as much respect as I used to watch and work with Alvin Ailey dancers. I know there steps and I know and respect so much their ability to pull these incredible dance steps off with the grace and strength that rivals any ballet dancer…but to you its pornographic
Where do you come off as judging as a selfish sexual purpose? I dont have sex with these dancers that I have watched and especialy with the dancers I hire to work for me dressed in near nude costumes…I intensly admire and love the art of the passistas of Rio de Janeiro”
Pornography is the showing of sexual acts or naked human body in an attempt to arouse sexually. I limited the definition further, as I thought that was too broad. I never mentioned samba or rebolado or near naked costumes. Maybe, I should be a little more specific. When I said, naked, gyrating bums. I’m talking about dances where the primary focus is on a woman’s naked butt or clothing that is so skimpy that she might as well be naked. The topic of discussion is booty dancing, not just whatever form of dance you want to limit it to. If a woman is dancing while scantily clad, but the main focus isn’t on her butt, but you insist on calling it booty dancing anyway, what am I supposed to think your focus is? Oh, you’re calling it booty dancing to highlight her grace and strength. Excuse me, my bad.
I never said you had sex with anyone. This isn’t about you. The fact that it has so little to do with you is a point I tried to make. This topic isn’t limited to your appreciation and extensive knowledge of “Afro diasporic” dance.
Bulanik,
“You are going to find massive denial about that ^^.
It will be beefed up by self-interest, ignorance and deliberate confusion to personalize the truth of what you say.
Like this: “why don’t you like a woman’s bare butt?”/”you are repressed”.
Total Irrelevance.”
I am well aware and open to vigorous debate on the matter.
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Solesearch, it just so happens the samba has these factors of near nudity and focus on booty , I mean you cant help but notice it in a passista, Are you telling me the near naked passistas dont count? I could be thrilled at that, but I still defend bootie dancing, Baile Funk has been looked at here like looking at hip hop and judging it by the most violent cursing lyrics. Baile Funk demonstrations are on all the afternoon TV shows down here. It is public culture…but what really seems to be the breaking point here is when the clothes come off.
By the way Solesearch, I am pounding on your opinion and not you, I dont so much want to change your mind as stand up against the origins of where you got your notions about near nudity tied in with booty dancing, which are similar to the other opinions on here, and how people superimpose political agendas over culture
Back to the Fox news thing you brought in, I honestly look at it and dont break it down to racial stereotypes, and, what I do find bizzarre is that it is presided over by Fox news. And I find the debate over it strange and not the most important thing that can be addressed about racial images in the media. How about more images in the media of dark skinned womwn in attractive lead roles that make them sexy and desirable,,,that is the whole problem with the passista, and she represents deep culture to top it off
And that is the real deep ominous spector you are missing, the burial, dissmisal and destruction of culture. If the Fox news is abstract in relationship to booty dancing perhaps you can indulge me and explain why the vamp on Louis Armstrong and tap dancing in the late 60’s black activist political agenda?
Why was culture stepped up on the chopping block?, culture that already was on the chopping block of white racist political violent agendas, surly you know Armstrong faced more blatent racism than anyone in his time growing up poor with his mother a prostitute,Because mixing the uptight part of the feminist agenda and slapping it together to think its racist towards black women, is only throwing culture up on the chopping block…luckily many times culture just barrels ahead and rolls over petty criticism, many times it doesnt fullu recover, like tap dancing,,,and I worry for the passista,I see how they are getting set up on the chopping bloc caught in the middle of the screams about sexual objectification and racism, from people who are a long ways away and dont really know the culture at all
The article Im reffereing to was a link I brought in above about criticisms about images of black women in carnival, that has people saying the same things I see here and I argue with thwm in the comments section
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B.R., what most conscious black men and women want is not media images that portray us as desirable for sex. We are already sexual objectified. We want images that show us as fully human, not just sexy. Human beings not sexual beings. Sexuality as a function of being human. As a woman, I want to be seen as an entire human being, not a butt.
It has been the norm and culture of rap music to show hyper sexual images of black women, doing a lot of booty dancing. Now those roles are being taken over by Latinas and white women. Should I be sad that this culture appropriation is going on? Protesting that black women’s opportunities to be seen as sexy has now been severely limited because rappers now only want white women to sexually objectify? That’s been the culture of hip hop for so long.
I am ecstatic we have less black women in these roles and hope it continues to decrease. I can’t say I’m happy at the increase in objectifying of white women. I’m feel no need to defend cultural practices just because they are my culture or my past. I guess I’m an Iconoclast. I’m not saying all images of Baile Funk or Samba are pornographic or used as the sole purpose to arouse men sexually, but yes I’m against those that are. Not against as in I wanna make laws against it.
It seems like you are defending the sexual objectification of women through these dances and saying I only think sexual objectification is wrong because of my repressed upbringing, but then you say stuff that kinda defends the dances as not being sexual in nature or that the focus isn’t on arousing men sexually. That it is my repressed nature that causes me to interpret them secually. Which is it?
What does that clip being on Fox News have to do with anything? Fox News talks about race. Marc Hill is a professor at a university not a conservative Fox News commentator. He speaks on a lot of different shows. You act like it wasn’t a debate between opposing sides. I already explained the importance of analyzing negative images of black people in the media and stand by my statement.
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Sondis, were you talking about commenter’s seriousness ?
Did you check out the videos people (including me) posted ? (I posted several with a lot of humour in them…) Is that you call serious ?… Hmmm
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@ Cornlia, i was referring to the very heated and serious, exchange between Bulanik and B.R., not the topic or videos.
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American black women are best at it.
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Bulanik, I commented about the World Cup Song in one of my short comments.
Meiway is an Ivorian singer who gets a lot of respect for his musical work and also for his political positioning.
He has made more serious and slow songs and straight political ones. The one I know best is one that talks about my husband’s people:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xtpze_meiway-bami-power_music#.UZkeTBwZGGg
There are more videos of songs of the same type by him on the right in the list. “Sans papier” means “without ID, meaning “illegal” in French, for instance. I hope everyone can see these videos, sometimes DailyMotion is blocked by country.
“Bami” is an abbreviation of Bamileke. “Ba” means “the people of” in many “bantu” languages and most villages in the West of Cameroon start with “Ba”. The singular, in Lingala at least is “mun”, hence “bantu” and “muntu” being plural and singular for “people”. Yesterday we were catting with Rwandan friends, I asked them if “ba” exists in Kinyarwanda and they said it’s not “ba” but “hwa”, pronounced a little like the “b” like “v” in Spanish. I love knowing what words mean everywhere. I made myself a special notebook to learn “Bamena” and “Bangu”, the languages (as well as the village names) where my husband’s parents are from in Cameroon… I realized later on how much I could recognize of words and pronounciation in Guadeloupe’s and Martinique’s Creoles. In particular some subject pronouns (like “ou” and “yo” are still there, but have shifted in the conjugations.
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Sondis, ha okay ha ha ! At least there was something hot happening in the uptight biggots’ world ! héhé I’ll read that in detail later… Enjoy the vids. I’ll check yours later too.
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blackthought,
What criteria do you usee to compare? Just curious because I think that the Senegalese are the best. Because of the humor and the subtlety of moves and also the timidity (they all run back to their sit or space after they have performed, I find that really cool, because it makes the dance even more intense, imho).
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I still have to read what’s coming after, but this was just so hilarious I’ll blockquote it !
Just totally hilarious !
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Just a question B.R. Have you watched other people’s video links ? ‘Cause it sure doesn’t look like it. You don’t provide much comment on them when you could considering your knowledge of the drumming (the Senegalese are masters in that domain).
The link you “threw” in with the quote up here ^ is “nothing special” compared to the other dances. It’s a different style, it’s nice, it’s fresh. There are hotter and more intricate stuff and I still find the original (Senegalese in particular) to satisfy my eyes and urge to dance more. I thought I would learn more on this from you actually.
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Another Senegalese one. B.R. can you tell us stuff about the drumming. For instance, is this style found in Brazil or are other drumming style the influence on the drumming styles found in Brazil ? And have they had an influence on the dance/butt/hip moves in turn ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBsKR6ea9LU
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Sabar is the style of music above.
Doudou N’Daye Rose was the master of drums in Senegal in the last decades.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEEjGAdkkk0
I haven’t found a video yet where women dance in his shows. However they play the drums. It seems as if the “classical version” doesn’t include the dances, but the “popular one” does.
Senegal is a very “conservative” country religion-wise, with a majority of Muslims and a minority of Christians, with a lot of syncrestism. In spite of the piousness, the dances are obviously sacred. Let’s hope that the new trend of heavy salafist influence (money) there and elsewhere in Africa will not lead to conflict about the cultural profane aspects of music…
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OK, let me work backwards here to answer, Cornlia, Ive been loving every clip brought in by everyone…thanks, this is the best part of the thread
I love Sengalese drumming, I listen a lot to the Rose CD, and, there is one cut that seems like implications of Samba, of course the grooves in Brazil have origins somewhere in Africa, Angola, Mozambique, Congo etc and there were so many slaves brought from everywhere, more slaves were brought to Brazil than anywhere. I mean Africa really is the mother of all these incredible grooves and dances that came out of the Americas
Serious drumming like you can find in Senegal , or Ghana, Nigeria, Kenya, etc, the real deep stuff, is more cross rhythmic , agesive and just the roots of what happened in the Americas…I hear a lot of things in a lot of the Senegal stuff and other African drumming that seriously influenced Cuban drumming and clave and cascara
the heavy 6/8 grooves can find sons and daughters, neices and nephews in Candomble in Brazil, Santera from Cuba, and Voodoo from Haite..what Im finding in Candomble is, a lot of the popular grooves that developed later in Brazil have some roots in Candomble rhythms…but not exclusivly, and Candomble is the direct connection to African grooves and cerimonies
Im doing some intensive study of some Candomble rhythms now and lots of the names are in Yoroba
I am just amazed at the link thoughout the African countries that they have in terms of a similar aproach to rhythm and dance..some of the dance above reminds me of a Nigerian clip I brought in a long time ago on the blog, Ive brought a huge amount of African youtubes in here and never had to repeat one to prove my point of this similarity in rhythmic dance concepts, it blows my mind…what is your take on that?
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by the way, my quote was just a joke and that wasnt meant to be the heaviast dance in Brazil but another booty dance that was in style a few years back…they have so many
Solesearch, Im going to try to answer a part of your post here. First of all, to find the common ground between us,I am concerned about racism, I am not insensetive to it, so, what I can say, Im having trouble perceiving what is the bad image about Lebron James? I dont see it as King Kong, I just see it as he is representing his profesion and she is representing hers…they are celebrities , not actors pretending to be someone else..that is just me…I just find Fox news hosting it as bizzarre, and, its so funny these days, I want to be on the side of the guy talking, that is where I thought my leanings were, but, these days, I have been put off by the far left, I always hated the far right, but, the left seems to come out with some strange positions , to me, that are frustrating…but, that is just me
Second, my presentations dont get into the deep booty dancing moves, but, the passistas are almost naked and they will do rebolada and we have some cuts that are really funky and predate baile funk and are the origins of the funk aspects in baile funk so the girls will go into the basic moves of the baile funk on it , if they know the moves, some do some dont…so I dont think my presentation would actualy be offensive to you, I dont know, and yes, I dont really know you, as I said , Im speaking to the origins of your opinions…I mean we all are damaged goods about represion thanks to the religious dogmas.
I am sure that down to the nitty gritty , you probably wouldnt agree with me on some things, Im the guy who defended porn, and I kind of have my theories on sexual objectification on the beleive we all want to be sex objects , or the object of desire to our mates…. so, I dont really judge the deeper aspects of booty dance, that might be called sexualy aluding
I can see the artistic aspects of the dances, so that is how I can speak artisticly about it, but, I also love eroticism and sensuality in art and nudity…I just love it, and I love dances if booty shaking is in it…I dont seek baile funk out but if I pass it on the tube, I will watch it, the same way Ill watch Tip Drill if its on
I am perplexed because, and I said this before, Cornlia so you know I have been watching, the moves in the videos you all have brought in are on the same leval of anything Ive brought in, its just the Brazilians take their clothes off…and I love that!!
that really does seem to be the litmus test here if there is an argument…whether the clothes are on or off
but, hey, Ill even shut up if people keep bringing in these clips
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“Im having trouble perceiving what is the bad image about Lebron James? I dont see it as King Kong, I just see it as he is representing his profesion and she is representing hers…they are celebrities , not actors pretending to be someone else”
B.R., The only thing that says basketball about Lebron James in that photo is the basketball and his outfit. That is not basketball posture, which is fine since this is a fashion magazine.
What the picture shows is a large black man in a rage, baring his teeth, holding a beautiful white woman. I can’t see the image of them individually gracing the cover of Vogue. Without those two images together they would have been thrown into the trash bin, especially the image of Gisele, but together it becomes a provocative piece. The black brute stereotype.
You can scroll to the bottom of the post to compare the King Kong image and the Vogue cover.
It is quite common for Fox News to host these type of discussions, as a conservative news source they would want to put their spin on it.
“I am sure that down to the nitty gritty, you probably wouldnt agree with me on some things, Im the guy who defended porn, and I kind of have my theories on sexual objectification on the beleive we all want to be sex objects , or the object of desire to our mates…. so, I dont really judge the deeper aspects of booty dance, that might be called sexualy aluding.”
A sexual object is someone who is simply regarded as a means to sexual gratification, so no we don’t all want to be sex objects, but women are routinely treated as such. As if we were put on the planet to tend to the desires of men and that should be our primary desire.
I don’t think viewing something as artistic shields it from criticism. What is this art trying to portray? What is it trying to say? Even if the artist isn’t consciously trying to say a particular thing their subconscious thoughts are still on display.
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Thanks Bulanik. The Fan Dance. Yeah, la danse du ventilateur, some of the women who came to dance at the parties I mentioned here https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/05/16/booty-dancing/#comment-170880
did that dance. Now that you’re talking about it, I remember this was the name they gave it.
Meiway’s music may certainly have reminiscence of other genres from neighboring countries since the countries do not actually correspond to the peoples in them… who have parts of them spread over borders. I know he also tries to cover all the Ivorian styles in his music, which corresponds to his political vision that goes against the trend in Ivory Coast that claimed that only a certain portion of the population was “truly” Ivorian. They called it l'”Ivoirité”… I would sum it up as stupidité…
There are things in some eastern Nigerian artistic expressions that sound or look like Western Cameroonian artistic and cultural expression, for instance, too.
Same in Europe from one county to another, and I imagine it’s the same everywhere. I know that I find similarities between Arabic musical styles and some “far-eastern” or Indian styles. There definitely are links. Just as some eastern European musical styles sound like near-eastern ones. Costumes and dances show similarities too. Southern French traditional music has deeper southern roots, since the Arabs and other peoples did occupy the place at one point. Most of France has lost its traditional dances due the Jacobinist “flattening” of culture, which acted basically in the same manner as the attempts at killing various cultures in the colonies… Except in France it succeeded very well. Only now are musicians trying to revive music and dances from before, restoring instruments. When you listen to it, you can hear how much more “percussive” it was. My son played the bagpipe with one of those passionate musicians. He and his wife organized balls to learn to dance ancient dances.
Flamenco definitely also has Indian and African sounds and rhythms in it (which some Spanish people don’t like to hear). I posted about this Niger harp player once who told me (I was supposed to buy him a harp for a bassoon player in France who collected harps from all over) that he played with Irish and other Celts players at a festival and was blown away by the similarities in the way the played and in what they played.
But anyway, off topic.
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Thanks BR. If you remember the Post titles in which you posted vids, since I started posting about a year ago or less, it might have been before I knew the blog. Otherwise, I’ll just navigate the blog here and there to check them.
I am very interested in whatever shows how humanity’s genius developed and evolved locally or across continents, borders and policies.
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Solesearch.
I really appreciate your take and the way you try to explain your point of view here. I’m going re-read your comments when I have more time. I am not a “black” woman, cannot know all the things a “black” woman has to go through (and I think it is worse than anyone else, because of the “dismissal” that is visible in this thread and also the utter lack of media visibility of bright and articulated “black” women) but I am with you on a lot of things here, simply because to me it is obvious.
I think that what some don’t see is that the way a culture has constructed itself on the “back” of “black” men and women and continues to do so, while the construction has been assimilated as “culture”.
The fact that many times the women who are dancing IN Africa have clothes on might very well be a result/impact of the European’s or the Arab’s eye and beliefs that tended to degrade the image of the African sexually speaking, because in other places that are not on the coast of the continent, people do not wear that many clothes while dancing. Very often they wear artifacts that imitates part of familiar animals and the dances represent the animals’ moves. (A little like the Shaolin Monks)
Example: Bikutsi of the Beti/Ewondo of Cameroon, which has become a national dance that everyone else dances too. It reminded me of the imitation of a bird, and it works because of the clothing.
All of these are Bukitsu music from Southern Cameroon.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMPhtJQ1SZ0)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dw5c1kJsVOs)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWKbDQPc3nc)
Les Têtes Brûlées popularized this style as “Bikutsi Rock”.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XOEnCE02Wk)
Dances in Africa also always serve a social purpose, and are not “just” for entertainment. I have seen how my in-law women sometimes start singing and dancing in the kitchen (which is often outside in the yard) to announce that the cooking is over and to relax after a long time preparing food.
I think that some (and that includes some “black” men”) don’t understand that the sexualization of African women IS a huge part of the dominating scheme of racism AND capitalism, which went together (as well as the formation of the Nation State, Nationalism, which often emphasize the role of the man over the woman, whichever the nationalism. It’s not surprising, as “nation” was sometimes synonymous with “race”, and the woman is the guardian of the “race” if her reproduction is controlled). They don’t see what we see or feel, as women/men who try to understand what the “threads” of domination are.
The bareness of the black woman in a European dominated context is not the same as in an African or else context free of European domination, where the sexualization inherent of racism has had no impact.
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B.R., Linda and other commenters, and Abagond, would you say that the left-to-right hip movement in Brazilian and other South American and Caribbean has something of a European/Indian/Eastern dance influence in it, as opposed (or rather mixing with) the front to back hip movement which would be more African in origin ? It feels as if Brazilian dances and Caribbean (as well as Arabic so called oriental) ones have best fusioned/fused both influences in their danced expression. It’s just an impression I have, what do you think ?
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This condemnation of dances for being overtly sexual has been going on for a long time, jazz, samba have both gone through the exact same criticism…baile funk is already a cultural patrimony in Brazil, you are already on the wrong side of history
You cant say samba and passistas were created to sexualy expoit the women, but that is how its portrayed by the uptight arguments I brought in on that link
Solesearch, your point of view about what is exploitive for the woman is not the same as the average Brazilian woman thinks, you arnt the final jude and jury about that.
I just dont get this sexual tension between James and Bunchkin, they are celebraties.How do you express intensity of basketball in a stationary pose? That is why people need to go to porn hub and see Lexington Steele with a white woman if they are preocupied and hung up on that , just to see what a black man having sex with a white woman really looks like, instead of pushing that on James and Bunchkin.
Even the bible sais in Corithian 7 that the man needs to submit to the women in the bed and the women needs to submit to the man in marraidge when doing sex, and that means becoming sex objects…I dont know about you, Solesearch, but most people want to be the object of desire in the eyes of their mate…what really is the wrong thing , is sexual traficing and exploitation of minors…not vamping down on dances , or pictures of celebrities,these arguments becomes strictly a forum for people who have their own repressed hangups about nudity with dancing, and superimpose these hangups over criticisms of dance…thank god near nudity exists in Brazilian dancing, its one of the most exciting sensual experiances in dancing to see the passistas with the bateria…thank god, Solesearch, you arnt the final judge and jury about this
Cornlia, fundimentaly in Brazil, I would say the hip movements were part of the culture brought by slaves…but, you can take the Lambada and see its couples holding each other dancing , a western concept I think , but, the groove and hip movemenst are Afro diasporic.Of course many things are the mixtures of cultures, but, Ive always mainained that , they are built on these Afro diasporic groove foundations.There was a large Christian Lebenese movement to Brazil, but, belly dancing is only now practiced as kind of a modern fad..
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Solesearch, “sexual object/exploitation” are western psycho sexual analysis, coming from societies plauged by sexualy repressing dogmas in the first place..I totaly reject it and am building from scratch a more realistic aproach without all the baggage about sex ,nudity, racism that buries cultures coming from all sides, etc
Just coming to Brazil has turned the whole thing upside down and I can never go back….never
Again, would you care to comment on Armstrong, tap dancing and how political dogmas can bury culture?
Cornlia , off the top of my head, just check the thread Bulanik brought up from Ana about black American tourism, I brought a lot in there, try the “Ancient Africa ” thread I think has a lot of clips I brought in…wordpress is messing with a lot of youtubes I have brought in, especialy ones from my channal, but you can go to my channal and click on the one that brings up all my personal youtubes and then just look for the ones with pictures of dancing or titles like “Samba Legends Suite” “Arte Amada” “Coco Raizes” “Nacao Pernambuco” “beautiful samba girls”
(www.youtube.com/91849)
I would have brought in my own clips but wordpress is blocking me
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http://www.youtube.com/91849
Haha Soulsearch, I just saw the animation next to the Vougue…well, Id like to know the origin of the animation…I would say if the photographer and Vougue were actualy mimicking that animation, that would be bad…but, what is in common? Jame’s mouth is open? His arm is around Bunchkin? She has the same color dress?
If his mouth wasnt open would it be ok? If his arm wasnt around her, would it be ok? I just am not uptight about black men with white women, and especialy celebrities who arnt linked to be together anyway….not seeing the animation, I have no sexual ilusions what so ever about James and Bunchkin in that photo…the hangup is with those animators and their racism….unless Vougue purposfully copied that picture
After seeing the animation I am not just sluffing it off, Im saying Vougue would have to be making a purposeful effort to mimick that animation to make me think its wrong
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(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sqCRakew2Y)
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Black American twerkers are better. Post some twerk team videos from you tube to see real booty shaking talent.
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great tip, blackthought how about the “Vai Vem”
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOy9-ih3yi8)
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they start young here in Brazil,here is “Creau”, I love this country
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5_bAX5eSqM)
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@ B. R. That video you posted of the preteen/teenage girls.
This is what they teach, young pubescent girls in Brazil in school? How to dance, provocative? 0_o
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“Solesearch, “sexual object/exploitation” are western psycho sexual analysis, coming from societies plauged by sexualy repressing dogmas in the first place..I totaly reject it and am building from scratch a more realistic aproach without all the baggage about sex ,nudity, racism that buries cultures coming from all sides, etc”
How far does your rejection of “sexual object/exploitation” go? Is it only in regards to women? I’d love to hear about your approach. I wouldn’t say it would be more realistic, if you’re rejecting the reality of sexism and racism. I think idealistic might be a better term.
Sexism isn’t something that is only indigenous to the western world. I think all societies and cultures developed “sexually repressing dogmas” of their own. Just like most aspects of human nature are regulated to some extent, by convention or law. Sexuality has real repercussions that affect people’s attitudes towards it and the ways it is allowed to be expressed and who is allowed to expressed it. I don’t think you can create an accurate picture of sexuality of any society if you disregard the power dynamics between the men and women of that society.
If there is equality between the sexes in a society, if the burden of the outcomes of sexuality are held equally between the men and women of that society, if the benefits of it were equally held then I wouldn’t care less if they spent all their free time booty dancing butt naked. The ideas of sexual objectification and exploitation are the combination of sexuality and power and can be applied anywhere.
I don’t see African cultures as stagnant, they are living, growing, changing things that react to and effect the societies in which they exist.
You can access sexuality in a vacuum, but then it seems it would be little more than a biology lesson.
“Solesearch, your point of view about what is exploitive for the woman is not the same as the average Brazilian woman thinks, you arnt the final jude and jury about that.”
Who is the final judge and jury? That was the point of my first comment to you about this. My answer would be that it is not the who it is the what by which we judge it by. I would say it is equality or the lack of it. I think it should all be judged on a case by case instance. I don’t think I ever said all booty dancing was sexually exploitative. It is you who seems to think sexual exploitation or objectification doesn’t exist or isn’t a problem. Thank goodness, you aren’t the final judge and jury on that.
“Even the bible sais in Corithian 7 that the man needs to submit to the women in the bed and the women needs to submit to the man in marraidge when doing sex, and that means becoming sex objects…I dont know about you, Solesearch, but most people want to be the object of desire in the eyes of their mate…what really is the wrong thing , is sexual traficing and exploitation of minors…not vamping down on dances , or pictures of celebrities,these arguments becomes strictly a forum for people who have their own repressed hangups about nudity with dancing, and superimpose these hangups over criticisms of dance…thank god near nudity exists in Brazilian dancing, its one of the most exciting sensual experiances in dancing to see the passistas with the bateria…thank god, Solesearch, you arnt the final judge and jury about this
”
I’m going by the standard definition of sexual object, which I already gave. You seem to be watering it down to mean something else. Most people don’t desire their mate to see them as solely a means to their own sexual gratification.
Women are also victims of sexual trafficking, women are also exploited. There are cultures that have no problem with exploiting children. To them you would only be expressing “western psycho sexual analysis” and your “own repressed hangups”, maybe they would ask who made you the “the final judge and jury”.
At this point, I’m only repeating myself. I think I’ve said, as much as I can.
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Cornlia,
“I think that what some don’t see is that the way a culture has constructed itself on the “back” of “black” men and women and continues to do so, while the construction has been assimilated as “culture”.”
That is true, but I think there is also an effort not to see the way societies have constructed itself on the backs of women, in general, outside the realm of racism. It seems to me that some people are more than capable of seeing and understanding racism when it isn’t being used to undermine sexism. Sexism is a lot older than white supremacy.
“The fact that many times the women who are dancing IN Africa have clothes on might very well be a result/impact of the European’s or the Arab’s eye and beliefs that tended to degrade the image of the African sexually speaking, because in other places that are not on the coast of the continent, people do not wear that many clothes while dancing. Very often they wear artifacts that imitates part of familiar animals and the dances represent the animals’ moves. (A little like the Shaolin Monks)
Example: Bikutsi of the Beti/Ewondo of Cameroon, which has become a national dance that everyone else dances too. It reminded me of the imitation of a bird, and it works because of the clothing.”
I think it would work without all the clothing.
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@ Bulanik, umm hmm… Those little girls will be, bear foot and pregnant in no time, specially the ones that have filled out and have more definition in their body. Shaking their butt and thrusting their pelvic area, serves no purpose but to sexualise them, therefore sparking the interest of adult men, that would otherwise, not pay them any mind, being they are children.
This is what perpetuates, child molestation and pedophilia. I do understand that there exists, sick men and women that are sexually attracted to children and no form of dress, matters.
However, i feel that because of the way young girls dress these days, it makes it more prevalent, being they don’t dress like children but like small adults, which makes more of these sick men and women, to look at them in a way that they probably wouldn’t have, if they were to appear in a child like, fashion.
The fact that you can drive down any street in America and see a underage female child, dressed in very skin tight jeans/shorts, shows how parents are not doing their part in trying to protect them from being seen, sexually.
The culture of today, doesn’t allow a female child to be a female child, they skip adolescents to being an adult.
This comes about by wearing make up, sexually revealing and skin tight outfits, talking about boys and sex at an age where it shouldn’t even be a thought in their young minds, engaging in dances, that emulate sexual motions and acts.
I have no children but if i did have a child, i would be so protective, specially a female, she would be a social misfit as i wouldn’t let her go NOWHERE unless she was accompanied by an adult i know and trust. Not to mention, she would have an appearance of a little girl, not a adult.
I know its no guarantee, that she would be safe from a child predator but at least she won’t be sticking out like a sore thumb in a world where child predators are lurking, everywhere. I would do my part as a parent to protect her.
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@ Bulanik:
You’re not helping me out here by posting these videos of buxom women with dangerous curves, shaking and gyrating their bodies.
After all, i am only but a man! Take it easy on me, I’m getting weak in the knees over here, i agree with everything you’re saying but i could only stand but so much.
I have a weakness for the female body like any other man, don’t make me choose!!! LMFAOO!
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@Blanc2…wow, Althea and Donna! My mother loved that song by them when she was young (back in the 70’s).
@Linda…I agree with your comments. “Dutty Wine” by Tony Matterhorn was one of the most popular songs on the Jamaican dancehall scene back in 2006. I did a fair bit of booty dancing myself in my younger, wilder days (when my shape was at its best) but I’m not sure I would do it now.
I don’t think booty dancing is evil, per se, but I agree with those that have said it does promote sexuality in problematic ways. Black women are often reduced to the size of their asses. As the owner of a fine behind, I will not-so-modestly state that it is indeed quite nice but there’s more to me than that. And I guess therein lies the criticism of booty dancing. It is sensual and there is definitely a cultural component, but there also seems to be some level of exploitation in some cases.
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@sondis…you make some very valid points re: the sexualization of young girls. I am now almost 30, but I remember my own adolescence very well and it wasn’t easy being a girl who had to grow up quickly. I remember a very sexually explicit song by LL Cool J when I was only about 12 (and sadly, I was also raped and sexually abused as a child). Many of the girls I knew growing up looked like women and they acted like women.
Like you said, sick men who are attracted to children will prey on them no matter what they wear…the first time somebody attacked me at the age of 10, I was wearing jeans and a hoodie. Clothes are only the tip of the iceberg, IMO.
I also think if you have daughters or plan on raising daughters, building their self-esteem is very important. Many of these young girls strutting around half-naked, shaking their butts, and degrading themselves need to know that they are beautiful and they are loved. I’m willing to bet that a lot of them aren’t getting positive reinforcement or guidance at home. If a young girl doesn’t feel good about herself, she will sometimes try to gain acceptance/validation through being “sexy” and “hot”. I saw this with one of my cousins growing up. She had no father, a poor relationship with her mother, and she had 36DD breasts by the time she was 13. Needless to say, she learned at a young age how to use her pretty face and her body to attract male attention from much older men. Unlike me, she was never sexually abused but she was clearly desperate for somebody to tell her she was pretty and that they loved her. I remember my grandmother would always complain about her skimpy clothes…halter tops without a bra, boobs bouncing everywhere, and clothes that looked like something a streetwalker would wear.
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Its amazing to see someone’s own insecuruty about nuduty and sex play out in their animated trashing of a country and culture they know absolutly nothing about,wrapped up in misinformation and banshee like attacks..
Right off the bat, I wont even ask to see statistics, and sex tourism is differant than child sex , thanks Legion, as well as understanding that its just kids dancing to a cultural patramony, a very big popular dance style that has all kinds of comercial polished representations. They are just doing what Afro diasporic kids in touch with their culture do, learn new cool dances. Besides that i am in favor of legal prostitution, and Brazil is more advanced than a lot of places about that,
The fact that child prostitution exists the most in the Noertheast, is the biggest proof of the total ignorance of someone who will shrilly come in and scream how sexualy exploitive a dance is , equating that it is the reason for the child prostitution.Nothing could be farther from the truth….and these lies have frightening ramifications
Baile funk is not from the Northeast, it is not the most popular dance there, far from it, it is a phenominon from Rio de Janeiro, it is mostly in the Southeast . Forro, Brega like Banda Calypso, Sertaneja,, Frevo etc are the more popular dances.
The absolute main reason for prostitution is abject poverty and racism that gives young girls no hope,,,equating it with dances in the culture is nothing but uptight repressed stiff thinking, and I dispise it , ridicule it and wipe my hands of even having to give this kind of thinking the minimum respect
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I tell you, the uptight comments on here about nudity mixed with Afro diasporic dancing leave the most cold clammy tight feeling saturating this blog air, and the air circulating around where ever the people live who make these comments…with total ignorance of culture…i mean total…they bluster ahead with the most narrow minded attitudes
by the way, the ballet dancer was brought in after there was a question if they had hip movements in Christian Afro dancing, after some islamic clad women were shown dancing using their hips…charactor assasination is wonderful when you have weak arguments
When I turn off my computor from some of these conversations, I am so happy and blessed to be here, I want to go out and kiss the ground of this marvelous country and its incredible culture, extremly Afro oriented, this is the largest country of Afro descendants than any country except Nigeria…and they say there are over 3000 dances and rhythms here , probably more than any country in Africa
And, the sensuality is more powerful here than any other country in the world, and the women are so special to be unafraid to express their sensuality in the most profound of ways and are liberated enough to demonstrate the female body in near nude erotic state ,in an open family atmosphere and very well expressed in their culture
It is such a blessing to be here, these conversations only fortify how lucky I am. Looking at sensual bunda on the beach, seeing it expressed in all its glory in Brazil’s culture, gives me great inner well being ..this is how these women in this country want to express themselves and no uptight harping and digruntled represion from a long way away can change that
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@ Cinnamondiva:
Let me first say, that i am so sorry, that had happened to you, it seems as though, you’ve maintained your upper faculties, despite that traumatic event.
I sometimes feel, relieved i never had children, being everything that is thrown at them in this day and age. Specially my black and brown children, they have more on their shoulders, than the average white child.
When i think of the trillions of dollars of debt, millennials will inherit, i feel so sorry for children growing up these days.
The sick people who pray on girls and even more so now, boys are getting molested by these Catholic priests but i digress, i never heard of a white Catholic priest, molesting a black child.
Sadly, Most victims of child molestation are done by family members in the black and brown, community. 😦
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@Cinnamondiva; I am so sorry to hear about this happening to you. But this is a dichotomous subject. I do feel things could get problematic with this type of creative expression. You do have to be on the look out for predatory individuals and the wrong signals to the wrong individual looking at young girls could make for a dangerous situation. I hope you are healed from your experience. This is indeed troubling and sad for a young girl to experience. I hope you are on your way to wholeness and healing.
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@ BR:
“And, the sensuality is more powerful here than any other country in the world, and the women are so special to be unafraid to express their sensuality in the most profound of ways and are liberated enough to demonstrate the female body in near nude erotic state ,in an open family atmosphere and very well expressed in their culture”
Or are you, as an american living there, looking at the native culture trough the western over-sexed looking glass or are you really “In” to that?
I know you have been living there for a long time, but could it be that your emphasis on the “candy shop” and “liberated” eroticism is just an idea from your own up bringing and american consept?
Nudity per sé does not mean a thing when and if think about liberating one-self from anything. I grew up in a culture where it was completely natural to have discussions with ones neighbours totally nude in sauna, where children and adults were mixed nude in the saunas, where the women went to swim nude in front of everybody and vice versa, where nobody batted an eye if a nude female or make walked across the yard to sauna or to swim while everybody else was clothed fully. That happened many times during summer at birthday parties and other quite formal occations. That still did not make my culture or the people liberated from anything. Except perhaps from some religious nudity rules etc.
What is remarkable, that during the last 20-30 years this sauna culture has been on decline and more western values and attitudes have been adopted, the over-sexualizing and pornographing the whole nudity issue, and as a result such “liberated” phenomenas as anorexia, bulimia etc., which were almost unknown in my youth, are becoming more and more common.
I wonder why…
When we look at foreign cultures and habits, we tend to project our own cultural backround, ideas and hopes into them. If we wish that a certain music is music of love, passion and yearning, we simply ignore the in the fact it is a music for brothels and make it something other, such as we did for tango. Tango is no longer backround music for prostitution which it originally was.
If we wish that certain dance is all about sexuality and porn, we project those meanings into them. Thus a dance of females for females celebrating the female identity becomes “bellydancing”, show of hinted sexual activities. IN short, it becomes banalized and simplyfied skeleton of itself for OUR needs and ideas. None of it which it originally had.
Because we can not see small nuances, hints, cultural innuedoes, we tend to simplyfy certain things. Female dances which celebrate the whole female extistance, the body and soul as well, turn into simple presentations of sexual acts. Shaking ones “booty” becomes an invitation or promise for sexual activity, intsead of presentation of female virility, ability to conceive and become a mother, the health of the dancer, and celebration of what it is to be a woman.
Instead of that, in our western eyes, these dances turn into a bit slimy teases, sexual performances without any deeper or wider meanings. The become commercial sexuality, a way to market something alledgely sexual. They become exploitative presentations with no other meaning or levels, which they originally had.
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Peanut,Id like to explain exactly what I mean about Ana’s article,I actualy agree with part of her point about gringos coming down and superimposing their values over Brazil. In some sence , that is what Im saying. Im also saying she is not into Afro Brazilian culture, and that is what is what she is actualy saying, If you understand her point, that is part of her premise, Im only stating her point about her self. In debating her on her blog or in that article, she fully admits that she is a heavy mettle fan, and a Brazilian rock fan. So, then the point I disagree with her is her take on whar Americans can or cant get out of a place like Salvsdor, and here is where I disagree with her, a person who admits they are not into that culture
I know for a fact that any body from anywhere can come down and become enriched in a very deep way to the culture in Bahia,Because she, as a black woman who doesnt really want to immerse herself in Afro Brazilian culture , mean she is an expert on what people, including black Americans, can get from that culture she is not interested in? Where have I ever said black women antwhere should immerse themselves in Afro diasporic culture? I feel like I have gone out of my way to not say peiople should immerse themselves in any culture, but , I will defend that culture and its value in a very powerful and knowlegdable way
I respect very much that Ana is a anthropology professor, but, I respect more , the incredible dancers and musicians I work with about their insights into Afro Brazilian culture. Her article came out of a run in with some black American activists, and again, the part illI agree with is gringos have no right to superimpose their values on Brazil, but her take on Afro Brazilian culture and what an American can get out of it is weak…my gosh my son jsut brought a treasure trove of cultural information from Salvador , Im giddy with the new info, very enriching and gives huge insights into Brazilian culture
Peanut I want to ask you, just because she is black and a very intelligant professor, does that mean I cant find something wrong on her take on Brazilian culture, when she admits she is not into it? I have some German blood, does that mean Wynton Marsalis couldnt school me on German classical music?
You know how much I rfespect you, Peanut, and some of your insights from going to Salvador are antithesis to her points, and , I agree with her points about gringos superimposing their values on Brazil , like they are doing here
Lots and lots of Brazilians arnt into Afro Brazilian culture, Imhere to defend the artists and people who aer into it
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Legion, I guess it was totaly lost on you that in an attemt to smear Brazil, information was brought in about child prostituion rampant in the Northeast, and it was implied its tied in with the “oversexualisation (what a bunch of crap)” of Brazil, and I pointed out , the cultures of the dances I have brought in, arnt really the stronger cultures up there…they are from Rio, and practiced in a huge way by the young drop dead gorgeous young women there. They dont even have passista culture , with the naked back sides, up in the northeast, What they do have, that is the real reason for any child prostitution, is bone crunching poverty, the type most people here have absolutly no idea of how it feels and how they might react to.
This attemt to tie that in with wonderful dances done by people of all ages, is nothing short of charactor assasination
Lets take a look at some countries that dont have booty dancing and see if that is any better…India has some great grooves in the South but they dont really have a vast demonstration of booty dancing with bare backside like Brazil, yet in the news just recently were some of the most brutal gang rapes on girls that I have read about…lack of booty dancing didnt improve womens lives there
How about Pakistan? I wonder how many Brazilian women would trade places with a Pakistani woman?
How about women in Afghanistan when the Taliban ruled most of the territiry?The Taliban are scum and kill way more children than American drone strikes and actualy recruit child bombers and gas and poison girls trying to learn…the lack of booty dancing didnt seem to improve the lot of women there
What about that lack of booty dancing in North Korea, do you think there are Brazilian women who would trade places with a North Korean woman
The logic that booty dancing leads to sexual prostitution in minors is one ominous ignorant train of thinking and I wash my hands of any respect for that logic.
Does the booty dancving with clothes on from the African countries brought in here have anything to do with the statistics that come out from those countries mentioned? Absolutly not
Povetry is what creates conditions for child prostitution, alcoholism and ingrained psychological problems causes violence to women, especialy domestic violence, to try to tie that in with culture and dance is absolutly ludicriss and deserves no respect what so ever
Passistas come from the Afro Brazilian cultures, from deep within thw favelas of Rio de Janeiro, same as baile funk. There is no big capatalist boogy man coming down and exploiting them, they face discrimination and uptight attitudes exactly what you see here on this blog and I despise it
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“charactor assasination” should read “cultural assasination”
Sam, I guess you havnt been reading my accounts of my background, I am so against the grain of standard American thinking and always have been and always will be. I came to my understanding of my affinity for nudity and eroticism in culture working with profesional dancers and how they have to let go of normal hang ups of the bodies. I saw lots of nude dancers dressing and undressing and I knew that that was where my head was at in relationship to nudity, erotic art and the female body…besides the fact I knew I was a booty man early on, which was against the grain
I also went to a huge amount of black American social dances and did a lot of differant dances from the James Brown slop,massed potatos, bop dancing, watusi, boogaloo,and I want to make it clear to the people here who said they did some social Afro diasporic dancing at some parties, that has nothing to do with seriously immersing yourself in Afro diasporic culture and working with profesional dancers where we put on show and concerts. These dancers are operating on a much higher leval of execution and knowledge of their culture, and anyone seriously involved in putting on these shows has an obligation to go much deeper in the understandings of the origins of the dances and cultures to find out what makes them tic and what makes them unique and special compared to other unique special cultures
No, Brazilian sensuality was not a shock for me, it was like arriving to a place where this sensuality wasnt hidden behind public doors and only unique to certain profesins, it was out in the open, for all to see and participate in and embraced…
I asure you and guarentee you , Brazilian butt wiggling with bare backsides exposed, and the fiodentals worn very high on the hips and pulled inside the crack, out on gorgous beaches and in passista costumes, is nothing like you have in Finland
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Yes, I am going to use words like “uptight”,”stiff” “repressed” when I see people obssesivly bringing in the same wiki quote, what is it, four times now? While the person is convulsing wretching on their own vomit obsessing on it…I debunked that wiki statement and only if people want to buy into this represion and repeat the exact same history of dismissing, burying, and destroying Afro diasporic cultures in the past with pretty much the exact same acuasations,then they can join Henrey Ford, Saayim Qubt, and a host of other religious dogmas and feminist activist political agendas that missed the boat
The represion of Afro diasporic culture is what racism is all about, and the people here dismissing it, burying it,call themselves anti racist, I totaly disagree with them and find their take on Afro diasporic culture naive at best and ignorance that can smear , repress , bury and destroy real Afro diasporic culture, at its worse…I want absolutly nothing to do with that type thinking and distance myself from it
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“Therefore, oversexualization of Brazil’s young would indeed (one would think) be a concern for one who claims to know the country and love the country. And oversexualization of the young would be a concern for people with basic morals/ethics.”
This is you, right Legion? I am catagoricly saying this is wrong it is abject poverty that causes child prostitution, and most of the prostitution comes from young kids servicing Brazilians at truck stops and soliciting on streets or suckered into small rings of men who indulge in this ,not in a big way from sex tourism. . I am absolutly firmly stating baile funk and nude backsides have no cause and affect in child prostitution and I was also addressing these issues as well as trying to inform you about the truth in this matter, my statements werent all at you. I am also blatently trying convey my disgust at this kind of thinking that links child prostitution with claims of over sexualisation being some kind of cause and affect, which isnt disgust at you , Legion, its disgust at origins of this type of thinking, kind of like Im not disgusted at all you like Chomsky, Im just disgusted with Chomsky,
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Peanut, I eanestly want to ask you a question related to the points you made to me, which I hope you dont mind that I continue ,
If a black political activist makes a statement that Louis Armstrong is an Uncle Tom and tap dancing is shuffling and jiving for the white man, and I know this to be a mischaractorisation, am I suposed to not question that?
Am I not suposed to question the premise someone is making, about Afro Bahian culture and what Americans might be able to get out of it, simply because she is an Afro Brazilian anthropology professor who admittedly does not have an affinity with Afro Bahian culture?
I want to reiterate , I have never ever implied that black men and women are supposed to immerse themselves in Afro diasporic culture , but am I not supposed to question assumtions that are wrong or misinformed about Afro diasporic culture, even if they are made by Afro descendants?
I feel that everyone is miles ahead and well informed about black political activist issues, mixed in with feminist political issues, but I find a real in depth discusion on Afro diasporic culture,its value and contibutions, history and tragectory,to be severly anemic in most discusions I can find anywhere about racism and the legacy of slavery that happened to Africa, that is just my opinion, and I ask you in earnest not to put down your position…I respect you a lot and I loved every minute of your discriptions of your trip to Salvador…I know Americans, and especially black Americans can gain so much fro passing through Bahia
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Hey BR….f’ck Brazil! we Caribbeans are better dancers….just kidding 🙂
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@BR
that video you posted to me was a white woman. I don’t like white women.
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All Jokes aside, Bulanik, All
I’m a simple person who grew up with my Caribbean beliefs about most issues in tact — good and bad…. since coming to America, I’ve learned to tolerate certain things/ groups that are “taboo” back home … I believe in traditional Marriage and that women have always been undervalued in society– fully dressed or not.
Where I come from, if you have your a’s and tata’s hanging out for everyone to see, bent over with it in the air, and simulating sex — most people would call you a “hoe”
dressing/ acting like a hoe doesn’t really make you a whore and you shouldn’t be treated like one, but lets be clear, in the words of Dave Chappelle: “you Are wearing a whore’s uniform” and acting like one — this is the REAL world we all live in.
But as we all know, men are dogs and when the little “head” talks, will have sex with anything breathing (as my brothers used to say: “put a pillow over her face and get the job done”)
in many countries, like my own, some men feel that they have the “right” to do what they want and the culture of rape is insidious and very depressing…you can be dressed like a nun and some a’shole will still find a way to rationalize and blame the victim.
And I know from personal experience, that men DO treat women differently based on how the woman is dressed/ behaves…to say otherwise, is to lie to yourself.
Anyway, here’s Dave Chappelle giving his words of wisdom:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uscmRI9ZrE)
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@ B.R.
I have given you a lot of leeway on this thread because this is a topic you feel strongly about, but from this point forward I will delete any comment of yours that makes personal remarks. If I delete one of your comments assume that is why.
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@Linda; That is one of the many routines that Dave Chappell does that is my favorite. Does’nt this say a lot about people perception of an individual. It is kind of unfair but I think there is a lot to say about perception and labels. I hope what I am trying to say makes sense.
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@Linda; I was trying to reference that saying about perception is everything.
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Mary, I agree… in every day interactions, perception is the key — that’s how most people make and base their 5-minute judgments, even if they are wrong.
Look at tattoos. Back in the day, tattoos had meaning and for different groups, (like in the Pacific) it meant something in society.
European sailors and American biker groups used to wear tattoos, and this symbolized them as “bad-a’ses” that you didn’t mess with.
Right or wrong, in the western world, back then, most people perceived anyone with a tattoo as being “bad” or a criminal.
Today, it’s a posh, fashion trend and tattoos have somewhat lost all their traditional meaning…it no longer has a point and has been commercialized to death.
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@ Linda:
You said:
“But as we all know, men are dogs and when the little “head” talks, will have sex with anything breathing (as my brothers used to say: “put a pillow over her face and get the job done”)”
I object to this blatant, generalization of men. I am 100% positive, that if i or any man on this blog, make a similar statement.
“But as we all know, women are whores or gold diggers and when the little purse talks, will take any and every man for every dime he has” Every women on this blog will be up in arms and will be calling for abagond, to ban that person.
Its the double standard, women can make these types of sexist and judgmental comments about men and it be accepted.
The fact that not one man, said anything about your generalization and that you were so comfortable to freely hurl it, shows the double standard.
I have respect for women on this blog, i only ask that i have the same respect in return.
That is all….
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http://english.pravda.ru/society/stories/11-10-2006/84991-child_prostitution-0/
More lies and mischaractorisations, they just keep piling in, this time from a religious Compassion Jesus foundation…look at the statistics here, looks like the numbers 500,000are just average compared to other large countries, they say Canada has 200,000 child prostitutes, the uSA 300,000 to 600,00, and I dont trust Compassion Jesus about what they say about Rio…I already laid out the real deal about the Northeast, if people want to wallow in their lies about it, feel free
Yeah, ok Abagond, whatever, because the lies and uptight repressed stream of drek is what is really the problem…its disgusting..I have debunked one lie after another…but you know, I dont care , people can live in their own little square uptight repressed judgemental stiff world , and beleive me, if these people can throw out the insults about sexuality, they are exactly what these words describe , Im blessed because my real life is here in the real deal, I wouldnt trade it for anywhere. And it is unbeleivabley healthy, in this sick sexualy ruined by religious dogma, I meaqn just read the mauldlin Campasion JESUS,( I mean get me away from that drek) world, Brazil is a major breath of fresh air
Yeah, women walk out on the street just dressing as provoking and sexy as you can imagine, they would be called dressing like prostitutes by the uptighties, but, here, its just incredible, to have that sensuality just coming around the corner in your daily life, its got nothing to do with sex, its high leval sensuality
I mean my god “sexual objects” “over sexualised” etc are all just white Western , parralled by other religious uptight cultures, psycho sexual babble ridden with anxiety and centuries of religious dogmad represion ….some people here are really just burying and destroying Afro Brazilian culture
And what about the constant bullsh!t referances to me? Dont I have a right to respond? Someone said they vomited, by me stating that, Im only saying what they said they did…I mean is calling people who are repressed and stiff some kind of obscenity? A fact is a fact, it isnt even an insult because its just the truth
Just scroll up, Blackthought, just scroll up
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@linda:
“Look at tattoos. Back in the day, tattoos had meaning and for different groups, (like in the Pacific) it meant something in society.
European sailors and American biker groups used to wear tattoos, and this symbolized them as “bad-a’ses” that you didn’t mess with.
Right or wrong, in the western world, back then, most people perceived anyone with a tattoo as being “bad” or a criminal.
Today, it’s a posh, fashion trend and tattoos have somewhat lost all their traditional meaning…it no longer has a point and has been commercialized to death.”
And yet, even today of tv shows and commercialized tattooing, the tattoos can and do tell something to those who can read them and do have meanings for different groups.
Vory culture of Russia, that is the russian underworld or mafiya, is known for its tattoos, they tell who you are, what you have done and what group you belong. The same is with japanese yakuza tattoos or even american gang tattoos.
Bikers have certain tattoos in general but also club tattoos. If you have a club tattoo in your skin and do not belong to that club, members of that club will escort you to the nearest tattoo parlor and cover it with ink (black out) or remove it one way or the other. That happens.
Sailors still do have some traditional tattoos which tell have you crossed the oceans, have you crossed over to the southern hempisphere etc. In Finland there are several sailor tattoos which are at least a hudnred years old and still in use.
Also finnish criminals have tattoos which tell to those who can read them where and how long this individual have done time and for what.
Tribal designs, very colorful and artistlike images, complicated and fine tattoos are from commercial businesses. In jail or at sea the guy doing the tattoo is not an expert, he is another sailor or convict. So if you see a guy with a smudged tattoo in one color, usually black or blue or green, that tells you that this individual has been around.
Bikers can have their tattoos made by pros but usually the imagery is a give away: skulls, wings, devils, playcards, dices, famous 1% etc. or the club logo or name or the “colors” that is the full club enblem.
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For you people who actualy have no hangups about looking at sensual dancing with near nudity involved, or like to dance near nude and feel good about it, lots of women do, you have to ignore the blatent lies and mischaractorisations that have been dogging Afro diasporic culture since slavery
I mean the trail of lies on this thread about Brazil is just disgusting
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There is no real discusion here, none what so ever, just coniving manipulated drek piling in
so, you have to ask yourself what do you really want out of life, how do you want to experiance your sexuality, your sensuality, you can never let people manipulate you feel about what you need in this world to express yourself and what makes you feel really good
Unfortunatly, outside of a country like Brazil, you have to lift weights to make it happen, you are up against a mighty uptight currant, but, know , it is out there
Its also funny how Afro diasporic dances take the hit like they do here on this thread, I mean pole dancing is mainstream now, spring break seems to be not too repressed and New Orleans has something with beads and breasts…but , no, lets rank on beautiful AFro diaspric dances, and AFro diasporic dances have a history of getting dumped on …and its in serious affect on this thread…it smells bad too
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@BR:
“some people here are really just burying and destroying Afro Brazilian culture”
Sorry, man, but you have been ranting and raving about nude behinds and erotic young women/girls all trough this thread all the time. Don’t you think that is getting pretty weird indeed?
You talk about afrobrazilian culture but always go back to the open “sensuality” and exposed buttocks, small breasts and shaking booties, as if the afrobrazilian culture is all about that. I do not think so. It is much much more than exposed buttocks for you personal pleasure.
Also when trying to defend a cultural aspect which is downgrading women to sexual objects as somehow liberating and empowering thing for women, you just expose your own ideas about the reality around you.
You dismis a black brazilian female professor simply because she does not see the reality like you do. You think it is because “she is not into afrobahian” culture. Could it be that as a black brazilian woman she sees something that you as a white american foreigner can not see?
“Yeah, women walk out on the street just dressing as provoking and sexy as you can imagine, they would be called dressing like prostitutes by the uptighties, but, here, its just incredible, to have that sensuality just coming around the corner in your daily life, its got nothing to do with sex, its high leval sensuality”
Mind you, it is you who is calling those women as prostitutes. And from that statement I can see that you look at the reality around you trough absolutely western eyes. What you see is exotique, not reality. You project your own western ideas into the life you see around you. For you, a troughly westernized male, lightly dressed women are “dressing as provoking and sexy as you can imagine” instead of practical clothes in the tropics, or simply because they have no money for better or more covering clothes, or what ever reason. No, for you it is simply ” as provoking and sexy as you can imagine”. Imagine. That is the key word here.
You called Brazil a “candy shop” earlier because of its women. That is as degrading statement as anyone can make on any country or about its women. It has nothing to do with “uptightness” or religion, which I wonder you do not see is very much all over the place in Brazil (and catholic church of all religions). It has everything to do of a privlidged white westener looking at poorer foreign females as objects of desire and commodities for buying. It may have been a slip but it was very revealing indeed.
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@bulanik:
I have few tattoos as well, with black and my own designs with some serious meaning behind them, done by one friend of mine long time before they became legal in Finland! Yes, tattooing in Finland was illegal up till the late 80’s or early 90’s 😀 That guy is now one of the most successful tattoo artist around.
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@ Sam
Excellent comment.
@ All
A good counterweight to B.R.’s comments is that post of Dr Ana Paula da Silva:
You will see that B.R. is looking at Brazil partly through an American male lens.
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@ Bulanik
I know it has been brought up several times. I just wanted to underline it.
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@ B.R.
I deleted your last comment. You need to STOP with the psychoanalytical bullshit ad hominems. Not everyone who disagrees with you does it because they are somehow screwed up. Please write about STATEMENTS not about the inner mental states of others. Statements are true or false regardless of who makes them.
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“Sondis,
But as we all know, women are whores or gold diggers and when the little purse talks, will take any and every man for every dime he has” Every women on this blog will be up in arms and will be calling for abagond, to ban that person.”
Linda says,
Sondis, I guess I should have put “some men are dogs” to limit the generalization but I stand by my statement …
I am old enough not to get offended by your statement because some women ARE gold diggers and whores who will take you for everything you have if you are stupid enough to give it…
but to me, most young girls undervalue themselves anyway and are giving it away for free, so young men don’t even have to spend that much!
some of you young men get the milk for free without buying the cow! In my generation, it didn’t work like that.
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Sam, I stand corrected….I should have said, “In America, it’s been commercialized to death”
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@Cornelia
would you say that the left-to-right hip movement in Brazilian and other South American and Caribbean has something of a European/Indian/Eastern dance influence in it, as opposed (or rather mixing with) the front to back hip movement which would be more African in origin ?
@ Bulanik “Linda might give you a more accurate answer.”
Linda says,
Bulanik, you’re answer was right on target. I like to give credit where credit is due and as you said, east Indians/Asians have contributed a lot to Caribbean cultures (especially in Jamaica)… people just brush it aside because the Asians have assimilated so successfully with Afro-descendants, it’s overlooked….
even Rastafarianism has it’s roots in east Indian traditions — One of the founders, Anglican pastor Howell, had an early follower who was an east Indian man named Laloo, who influenced Howell and his beliefs.
That’s how Howell began being referred to as Gong Guru or G.G. Maragh (Gunggunguru Maragh) The name is a combination of the three Hindi words gyan, wisdom, gun, virtue, and guru, teacher ,or translated to teacher of famed wisdom. Maragh means king.
Hindu philosophy influenced Rastafarianism — such as “jattas” (knots / dreadlocks) and ganja-smoking…
http://thestudyofracialism.org/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=2175
but since it was black Jamaicans who predominately practiced the new religion, people Assumed it’s origin was African-based.
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Yeah ok Abagond I get it, someone wrote you an e mail because they cant handle the truth…because it seems to me most of the psycho anal ysis is being done by other people about me, but you just want to tie me up to not respond to some really hack ignorant crap, ..
Because the sh!t said here about Brazil is a diarrea stain, it has no basis in truth
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So you want to talk about what Ana said? Lets break it dow once more so you can get it…
Ana said she is not into Bahian culture…can I say that one more time….Ana herself said she is not into Bahian culture…that was one of the points in the article, she sais Americans, specificly, black Americans,but we could say Americans,come to Bahia with a a stereo type of what black Bahia is.
Now get this, I agree with her that gringos shouldnt be super imposing what they think Bahia is…let me make that clear, she sais and I agree, that gringos shouldnt superimpose what thet think Bahia should be…
But , where I disagree is,she implies that black Americans are getting some false notion of Brazilian culture, that somehow there is no validity to what they could get
Now Ana isnt into Bahian culture,she is a heavy mettle fan.I have extended family in Bahia, I have lived in Brazil close to 28 years, I am immersed in Afro Brazilian culture, I work with Afro Bahian dancers, and we execute several Afro Bahian dances, I have played with some of the top players in Brazil…can I repeat that, I have graced the stage in Brazil with some of the most outstanding musicians in Brazil, playing Brazilian music….Ana has not…she has no idea what soever what it is like to go on a stage in Brazil and play top notch quality Brazilian music…www.youtube.com/91849 I mean you can go and see for yourself…I am deeply immersed into Afro Brazilian dance and music…Ana is not
And she is saying what for Americans could be valid or not….well, I disagree, Americans can get extaordinary culture and insights from checking out Brazilian culture in Bahia….incredible insights, and not only about Brazil, but about America and its slave past, because there in Bahia are some of the missing puzzle parts of our slave past (meaning of Americas slave past) and that is moving and emotional…who is anyone to try to belittle that, and that is my main point about it with Ana
I mean cmon, Abagond, you dont think I dont grasp everything she is saying? Where on here ever have I said getting sex from Brazilian women was easy? I totaly agree with her on that…Brazilian women will put a hurt on you if you disrespect them…I also know extremly well that most Brazilians dont know their own culture, like Americans, I have no ilusions about this , but you better know i know where to look for the deep dish cultura Afro Brasileira
You underestimate me, Abagond….hey Im an American, but whoa have i put some time into Brazil, and even more time into immersing myself into Afro Brazilian culture…and I know my way through a lot of understanding the ins and outs of the Brazilian mentality,,,and Ana is not into Afro Bahian culture, but you think I cant disagree with her, and you think sam someone else who doesnt know Afro Brasilian culture, hey he doent really know about black American culture, but he is passing judgement on me…give me a fuking break
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what is really the most hilarious thing on this thread is , people are actualy nervous and upset about black female naked booty dancing…I mean that really hangs people up…oh man , rolling on the floor absolutly laughing my @ss off…aha..ahahahahahahahahahahahaha
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Ignorance is bliss and there sure is a lot of ignorance about Brazil in this thread
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@BR:
I just commented your own take on afrobrazilian culture which to you, according to your own words, is mainly about exposed buttocks and “erotic”. It may be a generational thing, I do not know, but for a man who has been living in Brazil for almost thirty years your take on afrobrazilian culture seems strangely one-dimensional.
As for you knowning more about the life of a black woman in Brazil than a black brazilian woman, if you really believe that you, a white westener male, know MORE about afrobrazilian life than a afrobrazilian woman, I can only say that you have learned amazingly little from this blog or life around you.
As for me knowing black american culture, naturally, my knowledge on that is very thin and superficial. I have lived in USA twice for short time, but despite the fact that some of my friends over there were black americans I do not even pretend to know about it more than they do. But you firmly believe that you know more about afrobrazilian culture than afrobrazilian woman. You understand that this sounds pretty strange.
That is where our approach on these issues are different. Perhaps it is also generational thing, I do not know, but I do know that even if I would settle in some foreign land, I would always be a foreigner in there to the end of my days, simply because I am not born in that country. I am not a native. I am an immigrant and first generation as that. I can adapt, settle in, live in, but my personal past and history guarantees that I will always be some one who came in from the outside.
“what is really the most hilarious thing on this thread is , people are actualy nervous and upset about black female naked booty dancing”
Nudity, even black female nudity, hardly makes anyone here nervous at all. What makes people nervous is that someone is so immersed in western sexism and racism that he can not even see how he turns traditions and multilayered culture into a simple sex show, a strip tease for the pleasure of a white man, or to any man.
I have watched half naked black females dancing in Africa way back when but for me there was no sexual innuedoes, no eroticism, since in my head exposed breasts and “booty shaking” does not automatically mean sex. Maybe it was the sauna culture that made me understand that.
Perhaps if you were growning up in the USA in 1950’s or early 60’s all nudity was automatically connected with sex and sexuality for what ever reason. And perhaps this influence, the culture in which you grew up, left its mark on your way of looking at the world and other cultures. For you naked black females dancing is an sexual act, no matter what it really is. That is because you learned as a child to look at nudity that way. I am just guessing here.
What is upsetting and making people nervous is that you claim to be the sole expert on this culture and its various meanings and you promote the idea that it is about sex, sexuality and nothing else. We all know that it is about lot more than sex but for you, it is about “candy shop”.
That is what people here are responding and this is why I comment your statements. I very much doubt you are more liberated than me or many others here. It very much looks like you are still a prisoner of the western sexism and define the world trough that consept. I may be wrong but this is how it seems to me.
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Well lets just look at what you just said, Sam
First, what is the title of the thread? That is what we are talking about, isnt it…you want to talk about Afro Brazilian culture, that is another topic, and I can school you on that
Second, I never said i know more about bieng a black Brazilian women ever, so where do you get off making a statement about that?
But I do know black Brazilian women who are immersed in deep Afro Brazilian dance,, who know more tha Ana does, she has fully stated she does not have an affinity for the culture , and I have learned volumes about Afro Brazilian dance and how it hooks up with the drums, somethin Ana cant pass on…does that sink in? I absolutly didnt say I know more about Brazilia literature, about Brazilian history, about political mind set and reasons for it, and for sure I never said I knew what it is like to be a black woman in Brazil…but Ive tasted better Brazilian cooking than she has
But music is a differant story, not some popular hits history, but exactly the mechanics it takes to execute Brazilian music on stage with some of its highest leval practicionors, something Ana doesnt know about
You , with your vast knowledge of European history, do you think you could explain the depth of European classical music as well as Wynton or Branford Marsalis who play with classical music symphanies?
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About me thinking nudity in booty dancing is sexual, well you got it wrong again
I mean dont you see Sam , its the people like you who are breaking it down to “naked butt wiggling, propositioning coitus”…that is your poor definition…others have described it as pornografic, sexual objectification etc
Its those arguments that break passistas down to only sexual connotations
Wow, its unbeleivable, I am the one who sais the passistas are nothing short of the highest example of dance inart you could find anywhere in the world , easiar more exiting than any Bolshoi ballet, any modern dance or popular dance ,the passistas are high art…and they happen to also be one of the most sensual expresions of Afro diasporic dance in the world
It is your comments and others that debase the art form, and franckly Sam, after your opinions on shaving of female genital implicating pre pubesence, excuse me if I am leery of your opinion about it and other matters of sexual taste or nudity with Afro diasporic dance…Im sold on Finnish sauna, though
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@BR:
So you keep on insisting that you, being a musician, know more about AFRObrazilian culture than a AFRObrazilian person? Ok. Fair enough. I would not make that statement.
“but Ive tasted better Brazilian cooking than she has”
Really?
“You , with your vast knowledge of European history, do you think you could explain the depth of European classical music as well as Wynton or Branford Marsalis who play with classical music symphanies?”
No I do not think so, but I am not a musician, any more than you are afrobrazilian. Right?
As for the afrobrazilian culture, you sir brought that up here. I did not. It was you who brought afrobrazilian dance and music and culture up as you tried to defend you take on the subject of this thread.
You claimed, repeatedly, that it is afrobrazilian culture which is “sexy”, “erotic” and “sensuel” and that dancing and booty shaking reflects that. So it was you who defined afrobrazilian culture as being basically at its core about sex and nudity. Not me.
I also disagree with you on that, based on my own experiences with other cultures. Granted, you live in Brazil and I do not, but still it is very hard for me to believe that afrobrazilian or afrobahian culture is mainly about sex and sexuality, sort of “anti-uptightness”, as you claim it to be.
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Again, you are way off base, I have only been talking about the Afro Brazilian cultures that have booty dancing in them and they are extremly sensual, I never described them as sexual , your crowd did
Please direct me to the Afro Brazilian culture thread…..by the way I always specify drum dance as my specialty….that is what I do Sam, that is my specialty, not Ana’s…
Id be happy to go into a discusion about the history of Frevo, Maracatu,Coco, Pifinus, Bumba Meu Boi, Candomble,Choroinho, Bossa Nova,Caboclino,Jongo,Samba de Roda,Afoxe, Filhos de Ghandi, Obenija, Ossum,…man they say there are 3000 dances and grooves in Brazil,I dont even know them all
Sam you tried to tell me you know what Brazilian women wear when you never have been here
Cooking? Did I tell you my wife left home at 12 to work as a maid and foe some of her years she worked along side a cook for the great Brazilian trainer of the world cup teams, Pauli Almoral?
My wife makes the best muceca on the planet, and she knows all the incredibe Afro Bahian dishes….do you think Ana knows that
By the way you all bring up Ana all the time , you do know her and her husband do a lot of research on prostitution in Brazil, and they would rip apart some of the notions of child prostititution in Brazil that have been put forth by that Jesus siter….Im not saying that , I dont know the exact stistics
By the way, Legion, you made a comment about how you have to study the wiki about Brazilian child prostitution, I wonder if you might comment on the Pravda article you brought in
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I mean the Pravda article that I have brought in
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@ B.R.
1. I just deleted two of your comments. Please disagree with commenters’s statements rather than speculate on their state of mind. It is possible for someone to disagree with you in good faith and with sound of mind.
2. Please do not address B.R. directly. You may, however, reference her as a commenter – “Bulanik said…”, “Bulanik’s is wrong about…”, etc. If you find a case of plagiarism by her, fine, that is important to know, but do not give her a hard time about it. I still have to make up my mind what to do about it.
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Bulanik is seriously wrong about the smear campain she has made against Brazil, bringing in statistics about prostitution implying it has anything to do with nude booty dancing; and thinking it cant be compared to other big countries that have the same problems
Its like saying divorce in Brazil is because of booty dancing, when divorce happens all over the world
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(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPCYYdECJIs)
the great Josephine Baker…some of her moves look like the passistas
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@ All
Please place put your YouTube links inside parentheses from this point forward so that they do not auto embed.
Thank you.
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Look, Abagond, I would like to make a point to to you, and a question, about things that happened and then to hear your clarification and answer, if it is not appropriate for open blog use , and you need to delete this post, I would ask you to answer me through e mail…
Firrst, my interest is not in punishment of anyone, just for some things to be exposed for what they are that have affected various blog discussions, and me personaly
And my point would be, its not only plagerism that is in question, its how things were dealt with after it was exposed, also, that is even more deceitful. . It highlights something that has been going on for quite a while. And begs a lot of questions, like why was my name dragged into a deceitful attempt to discredit the person who noted the plagey?
and my question is, dont you think deceitful behavior like that doesnt play out in arguments that you can see on this thread? Doesnt that discredit the arguments? Isnt proof of deceitful manipulating tactics something I can point out as wrong with the argument? Shouldnt people who use deceitful tactics be exposed and have their credibility questioned ?
Again, if this is inapropriate for blog use, please delete it and if you can give me some kind of responce by e mail, I would apreciate that, I dont usualy try to run to your personal e mails to deal with these things,, but if it isnt appropriate for blog use, you can let me know
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@ Abagond
You said to BR
“Please do not address (Bulanik). directly. You may, however, reference her as a commenter – “Bulanik said…”, “Bulanik’s is wrong about…”, etc. If you find a case of plagiarism by her, fine, that is important to know, but do not give her a hard time about it. I still have to make up my mind what to do about it.”
I do not want this commenter addressing me, referring to me, or using my name here or elsewhere on this blog. Another commenter, Cornlia requested this and your answer was:
I have rebuffed BR aggressiveness repeatedly, and his aggressiveness and use of my name amounts to an ad hominem.
In consistently favouring his ad hominem attacks, you give him your blessing and permission to continue using this method instead of using rational argument relevant to the subject of discussion.
This is not only against your comment policy, but shows your favourtism in the worst light.
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@ Bulanik
I can tell commenters not to address you directly or make personal remarks, but if you are going to comment on this blog, then other commenters have every right to use your name in referring to your statements and opinions. No active commenter is going to be She Who Shall Not Be Named. That’s nuts.
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The thought that Im some favored commentator on here is ridiculous…as a matter of fact, thanks to the lies and deceptions perpetuated on me by someone who is proved to be a plagiarisor and who maliciously attacked the person who did slice and dice work to point out what is sure to be among many lies and deceipts,im one of the nemises on this blog, because of a coniving deception that there is no excuse to have to endure
“stalker? sexist? oppresor? racist “you belittled me as a black woman..”?..these have been hurled at me for two years now seriously, just like shows on mtv demonstrate how people lie and deceive on the internet, to be honest , I dont know what “it” really is now…..
and it stinks, for anyone thinking Im getting some kind of satisfaction out of this , kiss my behind, it smells to high heaven and is dirty, the whole thing is dirty
for sure it wasnt even one of my clashes that caused this….
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[…] Abagond’s “Booty Dancing“ […]
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Abagond, I only just saw this!
Oh?
I would kindly ask to give this line of reasoning some more reflection.
********************************************************************************************
Now, may I point out a few things to you:
** I pointed to a specific commenter. Not “commenter” in general. Thus:
— Please do not put words in my mouth.
— Please do not attempt to gaslight me.
— Please do not insult me with what is actually “nuts” here.
Because:
I have asked/told you (more than once) on this blog (and at least once by email) that I wanted this specific commenter to back off — particularly after the death of my father at the end of July last year. Do you recall those requests?
I have also told this commenter to leave me alone again and again.
Surely, you noticed…?
*
Further, Abagond, haven’t you DELETED previous comments of of mine about this commenter because you thought my remarks were an injustice to him?
Example: https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/03/04/african-queen-numero-does-blackface-again/#comment-164595
And didn’t you DELETE other comments of mine — without explanation — about the favourtism shown to this commenter?
Yet, He Who Is Anointed To Harass may say precisely as he wishes whenever, wherever.
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^^ Your remarks say a great deal about you, BR and Abagond.
What is more is that it doesn’t have to be this way.
A contrasting example:
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9rj3ahynFU)
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@ Bulanik
1. I believe I told B.R. not to address you directly or make personal remarks.
2. If there are any comments of his left standing where he has done so that you want me to delete, tell me. I will either delete it or give you a reason why I think it is wrong to delete it.
3. He, and everyone else, is allowed to use your name in referring to your comments. No one’s comments (or apparent beliefs, ideology or style of thinking) are beyond comment.
4. If I delete a comment without saying why, then review the comment policy. If it is still not clear, then ask me. There is a 2% chance it was a mistake. But please note that if the comment was deleted more than a week ago, I will not be able to review it since WordPress will have permanently deleted it by then. (Most deleted comments go to a trash bin and hang out there for about a week.)
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@ Abagond, Abagond…
More bobbing and weaving. You ignore what I say, put words into my mouth, and instead of owning up it, you refer me to a Policy whenever I mention your favourtism.
Abagond, I like your writing and at times you are a fantastic educator, but on some matters, you can only gaslight someone so much.
It matters that you want to be fair and be seen that way, but:
on the one hand, you “believe” you told someone to not address me and make personal remarks, but then on the other hand, you say that he is nevertheless “allowed” to refer to me, and by doing so… he makes personal remarks repeatedly, but then, magically, that makes it cool with you.
That is a contradiction.
I can only conclude you wanted me harried, and you enabled that nastiness.
*
To make things “right” you suggest that:
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@ B.R. and Bulanik
Please do not make any further personal remarks about each other. Going forward I will delete any such comments. You can still comment on what the other one SAYS.
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@ Bulanik
To call what I said a contradiction is not helpful. I do not believe I contradicted myself. If there is something you do not understand, ask. I believe I was clear on what the line is between a personal remark and a legitimate comment on what another commenter says.
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Some of the attitudes on this thread, about certain Brazilian Afro diasporic dances that have bare booty and hip thrusts, especialy Bulanik’s, are straight out of racist white America, Nazi’s, Communist countries and religious fundimentalism dogma, aproaches to various Afro diasporic musics and dances..
its disgusting, and can kiss my behind
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Abagond,
Of course…I shake my head. This is precisely how you have enabled a culture of harassment by trivialization and favourtism.
As for BR, time for him to leave me the f’ck alone and f’ck off. In that order.
Please note, and thank you very much.
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What sticks out on this thread , to me, about the commenters who have bashed Afro Brazilian dances , the passistas and their bare bottoms in samba, and the pelvic thrusts of baile funk is:
All these people put together, have very little knowledge of Brazil or Afro Brazilian culture….I mean very little…yet , they flail away about something they know little about , franticly googling up wikipedia articles about baile funk that are extremly misleading, and bringing in articles about prostitution , from extreme evangelico Christian sites , when a little research just shows Canada is equaly plauged with prostitution, and prostitution in Brazil has nothing to do with baile funk
If you want to delete something , Abagond, delete some of Bulanik’s comments bringing in the same misinformed Wiki article, what? 6 times or so…it has the effect of a rabid dog….it should be flushed down the toilet…Im down here in real time in Brazil, I see baile funk all in the mainstream, comercialised, young girls practice the moves, and that is the thing, young black women en masse latched on to baile funk in a big way, it isnt something men look at exploiting a few women, Black women in Rio love it
Im much more attached to the passistas in Samba , I worry for them and their culture much more than baile funk, but some of the passistas Ive worked for, went into baile funk moves on the funk cuts , and I loved it
I see baile funk as another Afro diasporic culture, that faced the discrimination from society, exactly the uptight comments you see here…another perplexing thing, these commenters absolutly are anti racist…but they dont have a real grasp of the struggle and evolution of Afro diasporic cultures…they cant speak with any authority what so ever about black American jazz and its struggles and evolution, or Samba, Capoeira, Candomble,etc
These cultures all got criticised, especialy about lewd sexuality, and banned, I can bring in a bunch of links proving this, the same tone as these commenters, because they dont really understand evolutions of black Sub Sahara Afro diasporic cultures and the struggles they face
Yet they talk like they like booty dancing, but, not these Afro diasporic Brazilian expresioI dont want any part of this type of thinking that cant even see an Afro diasporic culture for what it is and very educational to see it go through the same obstacles but slowly weave itself into the mainstream Brazilian culture…just like other Afro diasporic cultures did , like jazz
Instead, people pseudo intellectualy super impose their own uptight opinions mixed with political agendas from activist womens lib , mixed with Freud/Fanon, anti capatalism (the commies are equaly guilty of banning Afro diasporic culture), and latent or blatent religious restrictions floating in their sub concience, instead of take the time to study the reality of Afro diasporic drum dance culture, their evolutions and incredible struggle
I distance myself from this line of thinking…I want no part of it
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Booty Dancing originally can from a banned dance in Africa by the name Mapouka. It’s a love ritual dance to attraction mate.
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Baikoko. Traditional dance women from Tanga in Tanzania
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4MfwjvyNVk)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUOwzQEneCM)
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Couldn’t you find them big booty girls that gyrate their hips while they riding their bloke cowgirl rev.or doggy(pov)pkease?If u find,your site will be overwhelmed ..
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