“Django Unchained” (2012) is a three-hour Quentin Tarantino film, a cowboy-style Western set in the American slave South of 1858.
It stars:
Jamie Foxx as Django Freeman, a freed slave and gunman, “the quickest gun in the South”;
Christoph Waltz as Dr King Schultz, dentist turned bounty hunter who frees Django and takes him under his wing;
Kerry Washington as Broomhilda von Shaft, damsel in distress, Django’s sold-away wife whom he tries to find and free from slavery;
Leonardo DiCaprio as Calvin J. Candie, her master and head of Candyland, a huge slave plantation in Mississippi;
Samuel L. Jackson as Stephen, top slave at Candyland, a coontastic Uncle Tom of the worst sort.
Be warned:
- It is extremely violent – the blood not merely splatters, it splashes. Blacks are whipped, branded, tortured and killed. One is torn apart by dogs.
- Constant use of the n-word – on average, once every 90 seconds.
- The Klan as comic relief.
- Django as sidekick to Dr Schultz for most of the film.
- Stereotypes:
- Stephen as Uncle Tom: blacks love slavery!
- Django as Black Brute: black men, when freed, are uncontrollably violent with little regard for human life. The stereotype, like the Klan itself, grew out of white fear of freed black men – when blacks became, like Django, unchained.
The first two made it uncomfortable to watch.
What was good:
- Best line: “I’m used to Americans,” says Django when asked why he is not sickened by seeing dogs tear a man apart.
- Priceless: The damsel in distress is a beautiful black woman, not a beautiful white woman for the gazillionth time. Setting it against the dehumanizing backdrop of slavery makes it even more powerful.
- Unlike Spielberg’s “Lincoln”:
- shows the evils of slavery, the violence and dehumanization – maybe a little too lovingly;
- black agency – well, at least for the last half hour.
Plot (spoiler alert): Just like Siegfried saves Broomhilda from the dragon, so Django saves his beloved Broomhilda from slavery. Django massacres the whites of Candyland and blows up the big house with Stephen inside. As Candyland burns, Django and Broomhilda ride off into the night, gun in hand.
Historical accuracy: Most of the violence shown against slaves was true, even the hot box. So were the French-speaking comfort women and the common use of the n-word. Many slaves knew how to ride horses and shoot guns, 8% could read. There is no solid proof for mandingo fighting. There was no Klan back then. The Uncle Tom and Black Brute stereotypes are extreme and therefore misleading, more the creation of white fear and fantasy than fact.
The n-word: Tarantino says he wants to be true to the times. He uses it about as frequently as Mark Twain did in “Huckleberry Finn” (1884). But Tarantino is also a well-known fan of the word.
Bechdel Test for Racism: Whites do most of the talking. Black characters mainly talk to whites, rarely to each other. The black-on-black love story is mostly plot device. Django is mostly a sidekick till Tarantino needs his bloodbath ending.
See also:
I really, really tried to like this mess of a movie but, alas, could not. Overlong, muddled and a terrible (and a think a bit disrespectful) soundtrack to boot.
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I saw this movie the other day. It was dumb but had some funny moments. Kind of like Shaft meets Blazing Saddles. haha
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It’s a Quentin Tarantino film. There’s nothing left to be said.
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I liked the movie, primarily because it showed a black man as the hero and black woman as damsel in distress. Arguably King Schultz is the film’s “Magic Negro”.
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Arguably King Schultz is the film’s “Magic Negro”.
That’s why they named his character “Dr King” Schultz. It was a reference to the ultimate “Magic Negro”. Tarantino is a slug but I have to give him credit for coming up with that one. Alternately, Schultz plays a straight Uncle Tim to Samuel Jackson’s cartoonish Uncle Tom.
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I liked the movie a lot. I disagree with your characterization of Django as the “Black Brute” however. I feel a key component of that stereotype is that the Brute kills supposedly innocent white people for no reason at all. However, every person Django killed was in self defense/for a purpose.
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Personally I feel his use of the N-word was a bit gratuitous. I have heard people excuse it by saying “that how they talked back then”; however if you have read a slave narrative or other accounts from slavery Negro is used more than N-word.
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Negroes who have a problem with the film need to make their own version of the enslavement of African people. I am getting tired of hearing Negroes complain about what white people do with their own money, time, and resources.
Tavis, Spike, or any other Negro or group of Negroes who has a problem with what white people do with their own money, time and resources need to make a film that represents their own perspective, while using their own money, time, and resources. This way, we all can see how “they” would have done it.
I still guarantee you that there will be some “other” Negro or group of Negroes who will have a problem with “their” version of the enslavement of African people.
White people will NEVER be able to represent Black people in the way Black people would like to see it done. “Black” people are having a difficult time representing Black people the way Black people would like to see it done. Negroes please quit with the whining and complaining. You are starting to sound like you’re yelling “fire” everytime the sun appears. peace.
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I didn’t care for it too much. It’s simple math.Tarantino +Slavery = Disaster.
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Samuel L. Jackson was funny.
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I think QT made this slavery porn just so he could justify his well known gratuitous use of the N word. Samuel Jackson was brilliant. You hated Uncle Tom/Remus/Ruckus to your soul as he tried to thwart Django at every turn. This crab in the barrel mentality is still evident among many of our more misguided brothers and sisters. Instead of throwing shade at QT and his dark flesh fetish, we need to empower our own and make our OWN stories. Anyone ever notice how enraged and calculating they get when we start to develop our own? They claim we are lazy and dependent on them, but let us make moves otherwise and it’s Rosewood and Black Wall St. all over again. We need to be super vigilant and concerned with pushing a common agenda with other like minded peoples. When will we learn that don’t need them? We have never needed them. It was THEIR need for us that is the pretext for all modern foolishness. Including this manure pile movie.
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@Alphonso
Last I checked, it was a “free” country, and anyone has the right to “complain” about anything one wishes. And one may certainly critique a film that is released to the public by a studio that relies on the public’s financial support in order to get an ROI.
Abagond is merely attempting to distinguish the Hollywood fantasy from historical fact. Why does this bother you so much?
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Perhaps alphonso is the comic relief in this thread?
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or perhaps Alphonso is trying to get a rise out of the forum.
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Calling Stephen an Uncle Tom is not correct. He was not an Uncle Tom.
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The use of the word nigger is not surprising. Read some slave narratives and see how they bought into the myth .
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Darth71, I’m in full agreement with you.
That use of Uncle Tom suggests two things:
a) The speaker is very ignorant about the abolition of slavery, and thus probably about other aspects of slavery too.
b) Speaker believes everything a bunch of racist white guys tells him or her…
Siegfried’s lady goes by the name Brunhilde, or so. Broomhilda is a “cinder-ella” like version of that name, nicely humiliating the smart slave, but also evoking “broom jumping”. Some ladies like the “black husband’s black wife” a lot, and giving her a slave name stressing that is a nice touch.
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They have action figures to go along with the movie as well.
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@ Alphonso
O sorry mister white man if we complain too much.I’d rather not be represented at all then be misrepresented.Idc what the whites do as far as making filsm i won’t waste my money going to see it.I don’t like some black producers as well who make sterotypical movies about blacks to get a buck.I dislike them the most because they sell out their own race for a buck smh.Its hard for black films to get alot of resources or press if they don’t show sterotypes and are accurate. i don’t watch movies much anyways.
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Slapping Tarantino’s name on a project is generally a sure sign it will be an offensive turdpile. I know I’m not going to regret not seeing this movie.
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@ Darqbeauty
I agree !00%. I wish the blacks in Oklahoma would have rebuild after that awful tragedy.I hope the black community will someday be at our best.Back during jim crow it was very hard for blacks to succeed because of the fear and descrimination.Now we have less obstacles in our way but its like we are tired of fighting but now is when we need to fight the hardest.Shoot i wish someone like Oprah would give the families of the Oklahoma riots some money to rebuild since the government didn’t do a dam thing,we have to look out for our own.Even with the tuskegee experiments it took the government all those years to pay those people and most were already dead.Its funny to me how whites will say anybody who disagrees about americas way of dealing with things or brings up the violent history of america then we are unpatriotic. when really the citizens that do speak up imo are the real americans,because we choose not to be “yes” men and you are supposed to discipline out of love.
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Abagond you forgot the white savior sterotype. The bounty hunter freed him then made him work for him ,freedom ain’t free.I would probaly have watched the movie if it was that django freed himself and freed as many as he could.i would have liked a movie about Nat turner better.
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Its been a while since I’ve posted here. Good to see that you are still writing and coming up with great posts.
So,
A friend of mine is urging me to see this movie. I don’t hate Tarantino or his movies, and I find him to be pretty clever at times.
But I also think that people need to remember that slavery (like the Holocaust) is not a sandbox for white people to play in (especially when they insist black people forget about it all the time). I know I would be just as uncomfortable if I watched a pic that focused on the Trail of Tears and the genocide and forced assimiliation of America’s indigenous population, no matter how bombastic and violent the main character’s “revenge” might be, I would still have to sit through horrific racial violence to get to that high point.
I guess I find it odd how black people are told to forget the horrors of slavery every time it is brought up, yet are expected to stomach these brutal realities on the big screen when white people decide to make a movie about it. It reeks of, “Forget about this! Now let us rub your faces in what was done to your ancestors! Now forget about it again! Thats not racist, that’s just art!”
Has anyone seen any white criticism of the movie? Often, it reeks of the typical “Oh, it might incite revenge feelings in blacks! It might cause a race war” bull, yet very few of them brought up the violence applied against black people in the movie.
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That is a bad error. Yeah, I thought the Klan formed around 1870 at the beginning of Reconstruction. It was not a force in ante-bellum south. Maybe they should have had slave patrols instead.
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@ Legion
Then there goes Tarantino’s n-word defence. If he has such little regard for historical accuracy, then his use of the n-word was completely gratuitous. The word does not mean now what it meant then. If expediency and communicating override historical accuracy, then he only had to use the n-word a few times to point out how racist people were. That is how Spielberg handled it in “Lincoln”.
It also makes the violence against blacks into slavery porn since there was no need to show so much of it simply to inform us how evil things were to give the hero a motive. Think “Schindler’s List” or, from what I understand, even Tarantino’s own “Inglourious Basterds”.
Those times were hugely denigrating to blacks. If he is not interested in historical accuracy, then he is only interested in an excuse to denigrate blacks.
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@ Peanut
My opinion keeps changing too.
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@ darth71
He was an Uncle Tom in the common sense of that term.
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@ Y
Some of Django’s killing was self-defence, but some of it was vigilantism and some of it straight-up gratuitous. He kills not just slave owners and men pointing guns at him, he also kills an unarmed woman and an unarmed slave. Their only crime was complicity in an evil system. But if he cared so much about that, he would be mostly about freeing slaves, not killing people.
Also: Django is a bounty hunter. The only difference between bounty killing and murder is a piece of paper. Something made dramatically clear early in the film. Yet the same authorities who issued those pieces of paper also authorized slavery. You cannot have it both ways.
Django holds white life MORE CHEAPLY than Candie held black life. At least for Candie black life had a dollar value, as degraded as that is.
Django stands on moral quicksand.
And since we hear so little of his own thoughts, he becomes little better than a killing machine.
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@ Alphonso
Get a grip. If Tarantino has the right to make the film, we have the right to say whatever the hell we want about it.
I pointed out both the good and the bad in the film. I am not required to turn off my brain to please others.
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@ Peanut
Same here. I hate how she was pretty much just a plot device, not a fleshed out character. We SEE her experience torture, but we never HEAR her say much about it – or about anything.
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@ Abagond
The only reason he killed “that white woman”, was because she sent him to the movie’s inescapable coal mines, when he was captured during his initial attempt to save Brunhilda. The mines, where they work black slaves under absolutely grueling conditions until they’re too old or too broken to work. Where they then shoot you in the head, and then throw you down a hole. Essentially, it was a fate worse than simply being killed. Not that I’m justifying him shooting an unarmed woman, I’m just saying that she wasn’t innocent at all.
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A few quips from the great responses Abagond’s post has produced thus far. Candie’s sister, although not as fleshed out as other characters from the movie, portrays perhaps one of the most important in this story. The plantation wife (or in this case- the sister) had a very prominent role in a house slave’s life. The poor common field slave would have little, if any, contact with the mistress of the house; while the house slave would be virtually aside her every minute of the day. One can imagine a rogue slave’s feeling towards these seemingly innocent and delicate creatures as they move about in their fineries, almost oblivious to the horrors of slavery, but clearly benefiting from the peculiar institution’s cash flow. Django shot her because she was going to send him off to a hard labor life; and Django shot her because as a beat and broken field slave for his entire life, to him, this woman represented as much hate and venom as the overseer who whipped him as punishment for the smallest of reasons.
KKK: Correct me if I am wrong but there is no mention of the Ku Klux Klan in the movie? These are men in hoods who wish to hide their identity and to treat the audience to a Mel Brooks, ala Blazing Saddles moment (I still cannot embrace this scene as I find it disrespectful of the film’s overall message- Jonah Hill- really?). These cowardly men wished only to hide their faces as they carried out their faulty brand of anarchy. Interestingly enough, these men most likely portrayed the “Regulators” who were a precursor to the post war KKK. If the reader will recall Warren G and Nate Dog’s Regulate song and its call for…”Regulators, mount up!” this by no means is a reference to a white supremacist group from Warren G’s perspective, but rather a vigilante group that takes matters in to their own hands. Although, as I mentioned in my first post (first one of this particular blog’s post: I was first…Suckas!) that I did not particularly enjoy this film compared to Inglorious Basterds, I do appreciate the cleverness in which QT has presented his version of this era.
Did not the 13th Amendment free the slaves? The 14th overturn the Dred decision? And the 15th give blacks the right to vote (before even white women)? With that said, slavery, from a historical viewpoint, is all of ours to explore- black and white. As a white person myself I abhor when whites say that blacks should “get over” slavery as it was a very long time ago. Nonsense. I will admit if the prejudice had ended in 1865 after the war things might be slightly different now amongst the people of our nation. But for every cowardly politician who allowed segregation and Jim Crow to wrap their racist hands upon the throat of Lady Liberty for the 90 years that followed, we may collectively thank their ignorance and lack of morality.
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I thought the shooting of “Miss Lara” was one of the funniest scenes in the movie. She was far from an innocent. She was just fine helping to arrange the presumed rape of Broomhilda.
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I think I’m starting to give up hope on Americans as a whole. And hoping that American thinking will stop spreading.
Alphonso was right on point and everyone jumps on him complaining about things he DIDN’T say. What he said was simply: do it if you don’t like it.
Americans, whoever they are, or very very few of them, don’t want to live in reality and don’t want to accept nature as it is.
Illusion is the norm here.
I’m kinda getting tired of it. So I’ll just shut up and observe.
Just like I do with the whole “gun freedom 2nd Amendment” BS. It’s ALL hypocrisy.
Peace, if you can find it. I think you’ll need to find humbleness first.
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@ Y.
Good point. Searching through the standard slave narratives, they use “negro” twice as often as the n-word (some of it quoting what white people said). Meanwhile, Twain (and so too Tarantino) uses the n-word 15 TIMES MORE than they do.
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@ Abagond
“Searching through the standard slave narratives, they use “negro” twice as often as the n-word (some of it quoting what white people said). Meanwhile, Twain (and so too Tarantino) uses the n-word 15 TIMES MORE than they do.”
Food for thought:
The Coen Brothers insisted, with their remake of True Grit, that people in the 19th C. spoke the way they did in their movie and in everyday life as well. If any of you saw the movie then you know what I speak of. There were no contractions at all…i.e., can’t, won’t, don’t, etc. To borrow from Abagond’s citing of Mark twain, none of his dialogue, nor that of his contemporaries of the time, spoke this way in real life or literature. It is laborious for the ear, and for the speaker as well. With the newer True Grit, you have range cowboys who most likely never attended a school of any sort and yet the Coens have them speaking almost the Queen’s English. The same goes with the N-word and the Slave Narratives. The WPA Narratives from the 1930’s are a recounting of events from former slaves, and as we all know, time has a way of softening one’s memory. Any contemporary literature from the time would also tone down the word considerably for the masses. I am in no way defending QT’s use of the word, but I do think in the deep South of the time, the word was thrown around as easy as contractions are today.
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I personally don’t support Hollywood movies, simply for their institutional discrimination, against black actors and other people of color.
I watch movies by other means and yes, i have watched Django and i wasn’t really entertained, i feel the movie was a bit boring and relied to much on shock value.
Hollywood wants my money but they don’t want to show people on the screen that look like me, when they do its in a pandering way and degrading.
When Hollywood finally decides to create roles for black actors that are equally fleshed out, then i’ll go buy a movie ticket.
I have a few things to say about spike lee and how he feels about django and Hollywood in general.
I believe i know why spike is always tearing down films, that tell about our history in America.
The films are always inaccurate, the black characters are always, cardboard cut outs and have no character development and the white audience is always left with a feel good message by the end of the film.
why always must white people be lead to feel good at the end of a movie about blacks, suffering?
When we as black people, tell our own story about our history, Hollywood ignores us and never acknowledges the film in the way of an award, if anything the film is teared down.
When a white director, tells a story about our history as black people, he gets gold globes and oscars, because you know….. white people know about the black experience, better than blacks, themselves.
White people don’t like spike lee, because he makes films that tell our story in the way it really happened, not some sugar coated, feel good story that leaves white people, feeling good about themselves after seeing the white liberal, saving a negro. ( The Blind Side with Sandra Bullock )
The truth of the matter is, white people only want to see movies about black people, from a white perspective, not a black perspective, because that would mean, being faced with the truth and not getting a “feel good movie” that leads you to feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
White people call spike lee a racist, simply because he makes movies, that cater to his people, doesn’t every white director in holly wood, make films that cater to white people?, another double standard.
I also forgot to add, white people don’t like spike lee, mainly because he is an activist that points out racism in the movie industry, this is common among white people in America, if you point injustices of racism as a black person, you are labeled a racist by whites.
This tactic, deliberately changes the whole meaning of the word, “racist” which is a word that historically has described, white people that discriminates against black people. They have worked very hard at trying to remove this stigma, attached to them by trying to reverse this word, onto the victims, black people and other people of color.
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From the new Times piece.
Many thanks to Prof. Reynolds for writing this piece. As the ex-husband of one of the descendents of Harriet Beecher Stowe and father of our two children who also qualify as such, since reading the book about 15 years ago, I have always thought and said out loud that the stereotype of Uncle Tom was a complete distortion of the actual character in Mrs. Stowes great book.
In 2007 “The Annotated Uncle Tom’s Cabin” was published with an introduction and notes by Prof. Henry Louis Gates Jr. and Hollis Robbins. Prof. Reynolds’ piece brought me back to have a look at this grand book. In the introduction Gates, speaking of his coming to age in the “militant black 1960s, my sense of the book soon became inextricably intertwined with the negative stereotype of an ‘Uncle Tom,’ the black man all too eager to please the whites around him. Accordingly, Uncle Tom became for us the most reviled figure in American literary history. He was the embodiment of ‘race betrayal’ and an object of scorn, a scapegoat for all of our political self-doubts…I doubt whether anyone who tossed that epithet around during those years had actually reread Stowe’s novel.” Prof. Gates goes on to delineate other qualities of the book that may continue to surprise many of us – including both its sexual energy and its domesticity.
As a participant in the Freedom Summer of 1964 in Mississippi I was as militant as the next guy or gal, but many decades later, a victim of my own mistakes, I found myself in prison for a white-collar crime, and there read Harriet Beecher Stowe’s world-changing novel. For me, it was like reading a story in the Bible. Her book and Alan Paton’s “Cry the Beloved Country” were for me deeply religious books that spoke of the courage of ordinarily quiet good people who stood up to evil and to wrong with death-defying courage.
In some ways, though over a much longer time – centuries – one can look at the story of Jesus and how it developed, as a distortion of the original. The loving Jesus and his story was used in the following centuries as a rationale for hatred and for murder. Therefore, a call to review and relearn a tradition is truly revolutionary and will hopefully help to change forgone conclusions.
Thanks to Prof. Reynolds for writing this piece and to the NY Times for printing it. His book and the Gate’s book (altho a bit heavy) should be beach reading this summer.
Shalom, Cantor Bob Cohen
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@ Sondis
Spike Lee has said on record that he “shoots visual daggers” at interracial couples. Is this not the words of a racist?
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I loved this movie, but I’m a tarantino fan and I love action movies. The gun violence and blood didn’t bother me, but I had to close my eyes during the dog scene and the mandingo fight scene. I cringed at all the n-words flying around once Mr. Candie popped up on the scene.
Django definitely didn’t come off as a black brute to me. The black brute stereotype has the connotation of someone who is savage and stupid. Django shows cunning and his rage was righteous.
The fact that the movie shows a black man fighting for his black wife overcomes most of it deficiencies for me.
The deficiency that it doesn’t overcome is that the movie sets up Django as exceptional but not exceptional in that is he above most men but that he is above black people. That the rest of blacks in the movie were suited to racism. I don’t know if I can blame Tarantino or the movie for that because most of the movie shows how Django is given the opportunity to be more than a slave. I think that becomes lost between Candie’s phrenological rant and Django’s statement at the end that was something to the effect of “you might have seen a lot of n-words come and go but you haven’t seen one like me.” I don’t like that it leaves room for the average movie goer to believe that, but maybe I’m not giving people enough credit.
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I found Tarantino’s use of the n-word more appropriate than the use of the n-word in modern times. It’s used excessively today by many black people in a pretty irreverent manner. The words usage in the movie put it in its historical context and showed what it meant to be an n-word. Some people say it was used too much, but Tarantino does everything too much. He is very over the top and it’s not like he doesn’t know what he’s doing.
I don’t use the n-word except when I’m actually discussing the n-word. I hate the n-word even more when I hear black people use it. I’d rather be called a n-word by a white person than a black person.
I think this movie puts the word in proper context for the hip hop generation and even better if it’s excessive to make sure they get the point.
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@ Sondis
I agree. They get upset whenever a black person says something truthful about history just because they can’t handle the truth.When Chris Rock made that comment on the fourth of July they said he was anti american and when Mrs Obama said she was proud of america for the first time they said she was anti american.Its funny to me how those same people will say they are conservatives and believe in the bible but i know the bible says you are supposed to speak up and discipline out of love not sugar coat things and ignore it.Hopefully movies will get better that portray poc. Spike lee even was upset at Tyler Perry so i don’t see how they say he racist when he criticizes blacks and whites.I don’t go to the theaters because i’m not wasting time or money on movies that don’t portray us well.I also notice how when movies with a mostly all black cast people will say it needs to be more diverse but white movies like lord of the rings has all whites in it and i don’t hear anyone saying it needs to be more diverse.
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@ Peanut
That is why i will not see a movie in theaters that deals with serious matters because alot of people laugh at the serious violent parts and ruin it.I think they laugh because they are nervous i think its their way of laughing to keep from crying.Also some are being just plain disrespectful.I read a review on another blog and that woman said it was this one white guy who laughed through the whole movie and she was ready to tell him off.You let black people go in a movie theater and laugh during a holocaust movie showing them in concentration camps,we’d be kicked out so quick.Its double standard.Its like ok black people forget slavery and jim crow and don’t talk about it.Ok Jews and anything that has to do with white people you can talk about it and get reparatitions.like another commenter said they want blacks not to talk about it yet they stay making movies about it that are inaccurate.
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@ Peanut:
I know what you mean, the daughter of OJ Simpsons’s character in Roots, that was caught along with koonta kenta, was very beautiful. A black writer/director made the film. ( Alex Haley ) hmm….this is no coincidence.
I didn’t mention it earlier but i did like the fact that “black love” was displayed for the first damn time in a long time in a movie with black people in the cast.
I also saw the movie, “Flight” with Denzel Washington and i was surprised to see him have a love interest, when he rarely does in his films. I wasn’t surprised however, to see that his lover and love interest were two white women, one of which was a heroin addict.
Hollywood rather pair up a black actor with a white junky, than create a role for a beautiful black woman.
I mean come on, here you have a veteran airline pilot and you match him up with a two bit, white junky that works as sales person at a super market and somehow they are equally matched, simply because she is white?
This white character playing the heroin addict, did nothing for the film, i feel the film could have been just as boring, without her character.
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@solesearch
So when Tarantino said the n-word in his other movie (Pulp Fiction) you had no problem with it. Even when the word came out of his mouth more times than it did Sam Jackson. If you don’t know what i am talking about its the scene when Sam Jackson and John Travolta went to his character house to get the dead body cleaned up. Tarantino kept saying he got a dead N-word in his garage. I guess that was an appropriate moment to use the worrd. it was in context
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@ Peanut
I noticed that too.
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@Sondis
You said:
“The truth of the matter is, white people only want to see movies about black people, from a white perspective, not a black perspective, because that would mean, being faced with the truth and not getting a “feel good movie” that leads you to feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
White people call spike lee a racist, simply because he makes movies, that cater to his people, doesn’t every white director in holly wood, make films that cater to white people?, another double standard.”
Sondis, what exactly is the definition of “white people” for you? Is it “white looking people” or “white-thinking people”?
Don’t you thin kthis type of statement introduced with a ressounding “the truth” is *a little bit * of a generalization?
Personally I would say it’s a very American statement (you know, dichotomic vision of things with no way out ?). But that is also a generalization.
So could we please stop generalizing and not play the game of the racists who want us to all fit in our respective boxes?
Aside from that, your analysis pretty fits racist minds…
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Leonardo Dicaprio’s character Calvin Candie called his plantation “Canyland”. Which of course is another name for Hollywood. The message I got was that Hollywood is a plantation and black actors are the slaves. This is why Samuel L. Jackson could play the Uncle Tom house negro so well. Jackson was basically playing himself.lol I got the feeling that Tarantino was asking black people, “Why do you let us white folks degrade and mistreat you?” “Why not do your own films and tell your own stories?” I also think the n word was thrown around WAY too much. And the violence was over the top. But then again,it’s Tarantino so what do you expect. Besides I think Tarantino has a sick obsession with the N word anyway. Even his films that had no blacks or very few blacks–I still could find a n word in there some word. I think this is the film he’s been waiting to do all his life. A slave revenge flick where the n word would be justified?? Hmmm……that sounds about right.
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@Kiwi
Who ever talked about complaining about racism?
Who ever said “blacks” are wrong about pointing to racism?
Are you sure you’re not reading what you expect to read?
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@Abagond
“@ Peanut
” then on top of that…too many of the white people in the theater kept laughing at all the violent parts in the movie…”
I noticed that too.”
I think it is embarrassment. Some years ago I worked with La Amistad with my French students in France. The first time I did, I was shocked to hear some BOYS (not the girls) in the classroom laugh when the action was really violent against the Africans. I asked them what was the matter with them. Then I realized that year after year the reaction was similar, so I told them ahead of time that I didn’t want to hear any laughs and that some parts of the film left them confused or embarrassed, to please not laugh it away.
I know some here dismiss my explanation as BS, but I don’t mind, they do as they please. These kids I had in class were not racist for the most part, and many among those who laughed certainly not. Some could have been (or were) the victims of racism (North Africans in France). They were 14 years old and some things in the film were new to them. They had never realized slavery was so bad. After discussions on the film, I could see in their essays that the reaction was not racist.
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@mstoogood4yall
I agree with your take on all points. Especially this one: “You let black people go in a movie theater and laugh during a holocaust movie showing them in concentration camps,we’d be kicked out so quick.”
But I doubt many of them would actually laugh… That is the problem with racists/white supremacists, they have completely lost their humanity/compassion.
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I absolutely enjoyed this film. It is a combination of everything, the good and the bad. The people in the cinema reacted the way they were expected to, gasp at the bloody deaths, laugh at “now you can get marshal” and cringed at the Mandingo fight (well I cringed, I thought it was the most brutal part of the film).
I agree with most of the comments posted here but I still enjoyed the movie. Were we really expecting historically accurate stuff from Q.T, when he killed Hitler in ‘Inglorious Basterds’ in a theater? He is in it for gratification. Just another Hollywood flick, like it or leave it.
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@Green Inglorious Basterds dealt with the holocaust,right? Yet I didn’t hear the slur “kike” thrown around very much. So why was the n word used so freely in Django?
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I think this montage pretty much sums it up. These are films that Tarantino either wrote or directed. He clearly is in love with the n word. Are there any doubts??
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@ Kushite Prince
Because save for Donny “The Bear Jew” Donowitz, their weren’t a whole lot of Jews in the film. Nazi’s didn’t go around calling Jews, Kikes- it just isn’t their word. The Americans fighting the war, and subsequently helping to free the Jewish people from Hitler’s grasp, certainly weren’t going to use it. Again, another person comparing slavery to the Holocaust- it makes no sense to me? They are two very different tragedies. Like it or not, whites threw around the “N’ word in 1858 (even less than portrayed in Django) as freely as blacks do to one another today. There is no difference.
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I think Tarrantino feel his buddying up with Samuel L. Jackson gives him a black pass and he feels he can take liberties with African American culture.
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@raciallysensitive You’re right,black slavery and the holocaust are very different. Slavery was much much longer. But let’s be honest,you don’t think Tarantino has an obsession with the n word. Check out the video I put up. It’s pretty obvious he seems to get a hard on or something from using the word so much. I remember a comedy routine with Chris Rock and he said whites love to discuss the n word because it’s the ONE thing they’re not allowed to say.lol I think there’s a lot of truth in that statement.
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Millions of people around the planet are “in love with the n-word”. More or more of them in Africa.
So what do we do about them? They learnt it from gangsta rap and the subsequent years of “hip-hop”, when hip-hop lot its soul (apart from those who continued to be hip-hop people).
Who do we throw the stone at ?
There is a moment when things have to be faced for what they are. There are a bunch of idiots or ignorant whose skin is dark who use that word on a dailyy basis. QT’s skin is light, and maybe the way he has the actors in this film use it will make others *think*?
I am light-skinned (so called white) and I have never used that word in my whole life. I avoid quoting it as much as I can. It would never occur to me to use it like all other insults and “racial epithets”.
I have been a hip-hop listener for 20-more years.
“Don’t Call Me Yo’Nigga” said PE/ Chuck D once upon a time. A lot of water has flown under bridges since. And millions of instances of this word from mouths of all “colors”.
Who’s gonna stop first? Racists won’t.
Peace.
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@Bulanik You’re so right!lol That was spot on!lol
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@ Bulanik
“So what if the Nazis did not use “kikes” as a slur-word; they used other words such as “Judenschwein” (Jew swine) for example, to describe the “sub-human” Jew. …”
None of that is relevant to what I was saying to Prince above. He said that Basterds was about the Holocaust and it was not. I mentioned the Nazis because they were in the film and, again, they did not use that word so there would be no where in which the word would fit in this particular film as the American soldiers were not saying it.
As for your “survey” query. I collect books and manuscripts from the slavery era, Antebellum and the Reconstruction period, and they are rife with the “N” word. As for today: buy a rap album. Any questions?
The comparison of genocide amongst different races is far too complex in nature to compare. I have heard Jews say that at least slaves were used for something as Jews were only systematically eradicated. I have heard blacks say that Hitler’s 1000 Year Reich only lasted 12 years and to try 400 years of slavery followed by 90 years of segregation. Again, it is nonsensical to compare the two, as they both were tragedies.
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There was a rape scene that was taken out. Thank God!
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@son2380
I’ve never watched pulp fiction in its entirety, it’s kinda ahead of my time, but I find the use of racist words by racist characters to be appropriate. A lot more appropriate than members of an oppressed group embracing the derogative terminology of their oppressors.
Over the years, the n-word has become somewhat acceptable. I think this movie reinforces the ugliness of the word. I’m cool with that.
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@mary burrell
White people have always taken liberties with African American culture. A large part of African American culture is dictated/defined by white people. Racism is such a big part of the African American existence I don’t think it could be any other way. Plus, slavery is just as much white american history as it is black american history.
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@ Kinswoodroad
There are books by Mahmood Mamdani that can convince you the opposite. One of them is When Victims Become Killers and is about the Rwanda genocide. When you look at Israel today, you can imagine that the title resonates a little with the present…
I don’t see why two things cannot be compared because they were “tragedies”.
All the attempts at dehumanizing, all the way to supressing whole groups of people (the definition of genocide) are based on the idea of race. So they can be compared, politically, if you take away from the analysis the “emotional” aspects (tragedy). If you consider that comparison is not possible, then you don’t understand the deeply political and ideological aspects of race, which for instance, always has accompanied the advance and disturbances of capitalism.
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@ Cornelia
By comparison I mean that one group claims their people’s tragedy was worse than the other: It smacks of my dad can beat up your dad. Of course you can compare Rwanda to Idi Amin, or the Holocaust to slavery; but my beef is when blacks or Jews throw out the comparisons of the two as fodder for their own bullet point within a debate.
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Do J (most) Jews, still have their ethnic, religious and cultural memories?
Do Black Americans, descended of slavery, still have their ethnic, religious and cultural memories? Their names?
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Is the n-word ever used by any decent people in a Tarantino film? Whenever I’ve seen it used in his movies it’s always used by the most despicable people.
I don’t think you can separate Tarantino’s excessive use of the n-word from his excessive use of everything else. His movies are vulgar. He likes to produce a visceral reaction in his audience. He wants people to be disgusted by his characters.
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@Kushite Prince
weird how the black dude was the only to get raped in that movie.
@ solesearch
you can see in the video how much Tarantino loves to say the N word, please tell me the historical context of the use of the N word in all of his movies? Naw Tarantino is not a racist the fact that he compared Africans to King Kong in Inglorious Bastard is not proof that he is a racist
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His character in Pulp fiction had no reason to say Dead N that many times. What because the character was married to a black woman, it gave him permission to say it. Tarantino always looks for an excuse to say put the word in his movies.
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@kingswoodroad:
“As for today: buy a rap album. Any questions?”
Regarding rap and hip hop, why do you think that in USA, at the time when republican cencorship movement was at its strongest, all of a sudden, the rap records which sold the most, which got the most publicity and most airwaves were gangsta rap records?
Why was it that political rap was quietly sidelined and guys toting Uzis and half naked street chicks were brought to the front?
Why was it that these records crossed over, sold millions and millions among the white? What was in the gangsta rap, the N word and all of that glorifying of violence that spoke so well to the white audiences across the conservative USA?
Why a regime which was censoring arts and litterature on state and federal level allowed gangsta trap flourish? At the same time we got beeps and mute seconds in films if the language was too rude and yet, NWA was ok? Why MTV played gangsta rap over and over and over again but not some really political rap?
Yes, some “radical” rappers got trough too, but gangsta rap became mainstream. It became The Rap. Why that happened in conservative USA?
Because it was instantly recognized by white americans as the “original” BLACK rap. It showed that blacks were indeed gangbangers, violent drug pushers and pimps, hooligians and dope heads, jobless street people, just like white americans had always been thinking.
And just like you say here, that rap proved that the N word was mainly used by blacks themselves, and therefore there was nothing wrong when whites used it.
It was not an accident that gangsta rap became The Rap most whites know even today. They look at the G’s puffin smoke, those big butt gangsta chicks wiggling their thighs and backs, in skimpy dresses and ultra mikro shorts, and they say: “Hey, that is how they really are, That is for Real. That is the Truth. Their women are b*****s and h**s, over sexed and ready for anything for money, and all the guys are smokin weed, snorting coke, waving ghuns all day long and scheming some sort of crime and naturally all belong a gang.
And yes, they all use the N word all the time, so it is ok for a white american use it too.”
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While I’ve yet to see this film. I have read one of the best critiques by far (IMO) concerning most of the topics raised here. (and more) But more specifically about the role and nature of Quentin Tarantino in producing it.
http://blacobin.com/post/38784520204/mad-about-django-tarantino-untamed-5-reasons-spike-is
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The Oscar nominations were announced this morning. And just to show you that the white man is still running Hollyweird..no black person from Django was nominated.lol For those who disliked the movie need to fret not, all of its Black actors were snubbed.. No Oscars for Jamie Foxx, Sam Jackson and Kerry Washington Yet somehow Christopher Shultz was nominated for Best Supporting Actress and Django was nominated for Best Picture. Now wait a minute! Jamie Foxx was the star right?? How did Jamie get overlooked but Christopher Shultz gets a nod?? So even in a black revenge film the brother still gets no love from the Academy.smh Public Enemy said it best…”Burn Hollywood Burn!”
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@Kiwi
“If 60% of Hollywood were black, Hollywood would lose profits because the actors would not be considered American enough. Same goes for Asians. They have no right to be American. But if the actor is Jewish, that’s okay. The movie The Amazing Spiderman starred Andrew Garfield, a British Jew. To play the role of an American superhero, you don’t have to be American, you can be British! See how open and free America is? All you have to be is white (white=American) and male. Jews are free to apply as needed! Hollywood churns out so many Holocaust movies to remind us of the tragic loss of 6 million precious white lives in Europe. 20 million dead Chinese because of Japan, which America fought just like it fought Germany? Who cares? 20 million dead Africans because of the Atlantic Slave Trade? Are you kidding? Hollywood is a business, not a charity.”
Wow! Great post! You said a mouthful!
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@son2380 Yes,that’s very revealing indeed.
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@son2380
The historical context is that white people still call black people n-words and black people call themselves n-words.
What do you mean Tarantino compared Africans to King Kong in Inglorious Basterds? I think you’re getting characters in the movie mixed up with real people. Just because an author writes a racist character doesn’t mean the author is racist and because an actor plays a racist character doesn’t mean the actor is racist. Nazi’s are racists. Did you want Tarantino to depict them as loving peaceful people? Or should we just forget they ever existed?
Tarantino’s message in Inglorious Basterds was that Nazis are evil not that Africans are monkeys. Tarantino’s use of the n-word in his movies isn’t because he thinks black people are n-words, but a lot of effed up evil people do think of black people as n-words both black and white. Most of his characters are horrible people doing horrible things. Their excessive use of the n-word is another way to drive home that these people are disgusting or in some way effed up. It’s characterization. Use of the n-word evokes a visceral reaction in most Americans and he wants you to feel that. His characters are racists not him, or at least his writing characters that use n-word isn’t enough to say he’s racist.
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Overall, the movie was decent, not as good as my FB & twitter made it seem, but decent. It had some pretty funny parts and the final bloodbath was absolutely awesome (years of violent video games hv obviously desensitized me :P).
However, it was too damn long, I wasn’t convinced by the love story, and the repeated use of the N-word made me feel quite uncomfortable.
Ultimately, although I enjoyed the film, I couldn’t watch it again
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“kerry washington was naked a lot. why they have to show her naked breasts and stuff. i didn’t like that.”
Shooot… i had no problem w/ it lol
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Yes, I thought Samuel L. Jackson or Jamie Foxx would get nominated for their roles. The African American actors don’t get any recognition or award nominations.
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@solesearch
Why again were the Nazis in that movie talking about black people instead of Jews. It seems like you will do anything to defend this clown. Its ok as long as its negative towards blacks. The reason why there were no Jewish Hate speech in Inglorius Bastard, is because Tarantino Knows that if he put it there. The Jewish machine would be up in arms boycotting his film. He would be able to get funding to make anymore films.
Also I don’t call other black people the N word, I hate the word. So please don’t generalize all back people like that.
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I notice movies usually have a white savior sterotype even the asian movies.i was watching a movie with jackie chan and jet li.my friend pointed out that in those movies its usually a white kid that is the “chosen one”to save the land from an evil lord, never really another asian.i was disappointed when i saw the movie dragon ball z it was nothing but whites in that movie.i was mad because an asian man invented that series and the white people whitewashing it and cast white people.I not watch movies from whitewashed hollywood.
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sorry for all the typos just annoyed right now
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@ mary
Yeah i know they don’t the recognition they deserve.Where is Bet to host a black actor award ceremony *crickets*.They are too busy hosting unprofessional awards like the hip hop awards.smh.
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@mstoogood4yall; I totally agree.
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@Kiwi; Great points. You were spot on.
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@Kushite Prince; Yes brother we are both on the same wave lenghth about this it’s fishy. Totally messed up.
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Is it me or is there something seriously strange or odd about Quentin Tarantino? There definitely seems to be about his views (or lack of views) about the violence in his films…
Taken from a recent interview…
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Can’t say i’m surprised nobody from django got an oscar.Kerry is beautiful but like most black female actresses the only way to get an oscar is to play a maid.playing a slave really won’t get you one because its a slave they are forced to work whereas a maid chooses to work.Maybe they’ll have the help 2 and the white savior can save those maids from the bus and write a book and give them a car.Maybe the blacks in that movie will get an oscar.i notice the black actors who are comedians then play dramatic roles don’t really get awards for those drama roles.Tarantino seems a bit off like charlie sheen type off.
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Follow the money. Movie industry is all about the money.
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@Oyan
You asked: “Do J (most) Jews, still have their ethnic, religious and cultural memories?
Do Black Americans, descended of slavery, still have their ethnic, religious and cultural memories? Their names?”
Now that would be something to study.
One: “Jew” is not a “race” or an “ethnic group”. It’s a religion. That Sionists or other Jewish groups claim it as a “race” or ethnic group is to serve their interests in Israel.
Most Jews do not have Hebrew names, but European, Spanish, Arabic, etc… names.
One can convert to Judaism.
Black Americans, we know the story. And Afro-descendants in the Americas, in many places have kept a lot of their religion (Brasil and a lot of places we don’t even know about because they don’t make the news) or cultures. But the dominant white supremacist group(s) don’t want us to know that.
Just one very tiny fact: I started learning Guadeloupe’s Créole a few months ago, with a Rosetta Stone type of method, called Assimil (for the anecdote, the Guadeloupean authors mention NOWHERE the fact that Créole grammar is mainly African-based). I stopped because I didn’t have time to continue.
I started learning the Bamena patois of Western Cameroon a few years ago, while I was there, I “taught myself” by writing stuff in a notebook and came up with basic grammar points and vocabulary, which a cousin helped me organize. When I started learning Guadeloupe’s Creole, I realized that many aspects were similar (I was also kinda looking for them and I’m a language teacher so I had training). For instance, two subject pronouns are the same, even if one has “translated” in the conjugation: “you” and “he/she/they”: that “ou” and “yo”. You find them in Bamena patois and in Créole.
Also, the word and sentence accentuations are very similar to the accentuations I can hear when I hear some Cameroonians speak French or their patois.
So, don’t let the “powers that be” fool you. There is A LOT to study and find as far as remainder of African cultures in the Americas.
Another anecdote: my best friend in the US, who is also my pen-pal (we first started writing to each other 30-more years ago) is African-American and I can see in her gestures things that I see in the gestures of African women in my family.
Peace
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@Kiwi
Here you go, doing it again.
Don’t put words in people’s mouths, please.
Keep to your arguments. Which you had a hard time developing and are not convincing at all.
Lol at that: “If you and Alphonso are “getting tired of blacks complaining” when they point to racism, doesn’t that mean you think it’s wrong of them to complain about it? If my siblings disrupt me while I work, I complain by saying, “I’m tired of your antics!” That’s because I think disrupting a busy person is wrong.”
I NEVER EVER NOWHERE wrote or said or thought that I “am getting tired of blacks complaining”. Get your facts straight before you spread false quotes about people.
I sleep in the same bed as a person defined as black every night. I hear his complaints and never get tired of them. We even have special stragegy session to take care of them so that he can counter-act appropriately at work, with all the possibilities in mind. Because his complaints concern work, the glass ceiling he reached a long time ago and keeps bumping into, idiots and racists at work and in many other places. When we walk around with our kids here and there, we get no looks (from “normal” kind and natural other human beings) or some looks we ignore and a few looks we don’t like. That would be those who complain about us being who we are and being together. It bothers them. They “get tired of it”. They are of all skin colors.
Think before you post again and read carefully.
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@Kiwi
That’s what I’m saying, you read what you expect to read. Here is what I said:
Can you quote me saying that: “I’m tired of blacks complaining”? No. Because I didn’t, and I would never.
I even wrote “things he DIDN’T say” and capitalized !
Again, don’t put words into people’s mouths.
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Brackets after “observe”… ^^
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@mary burrell What would you expect from Hollyweird??lol Face it,we need our own studios and production companies. I’m tired of seeing other people tell our stories. They will NEVER get it right.
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Well as usual Bulanik that is great assessment of the video I posted. Which I also would agree with.
I would find it most amazing if most of the people commenting here, who’ve actually seen the movie, were NOT aware of his almost “child-like” unaccountable demeanour in the interview when it comes the subject of violence.
Is this really the type of intelligent, sensitive and racism aware director we would expect to produce a movie about slavery to start a much needed debate in America? Some how I don’t think so!!!
As I’ve already hinted, QT sounds seriously deranged to be making any films let alone films with a subject matter as sensitive and disturbing as slavery!
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[…] Django Unchained (abagond.wordpress.com) […]
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I sincerely think that many of you do not realize how much you sound like modern day Segregationists and racists who think that Hollywood, and the white population in general, are out to stifle any progress blacks think they have been held back on. Jamie Fox sounded like Clint Eastwood and showed almost no range in his role in Django, and therefore, I agree that he did not deserve a nomination. Samuel Jackson I was a bit surprised at mind you, but if you consider that Leonardo DiCaprio was not nominated as well then we can cancel that one out, as they were both pretty brilliant in their respective roles. Why oh why would anyone think that Left-leaning Hollywood would go out of their way to misrepresent an entire race of people in this day and age is beyond me. Was not Denzel, once again, rightfully nominated? White people, for the most part, do not patronize “black” movies as much as mainstream fare (notice I didn’t say white movies because they do not exist) because, truth be told, they are so incredibly one sided and biased it becomes tiresome to watch. Spike Lee is a prime example. The man does not have a subtle bone in his body. He will hit the viewer over the head with his own brand of historical revisionism and God help the non-black who disagrees for they will immediately be labeled a close-minded racist. Hollywood LOVES to nominate minorities; we know this from recent history. But it is only when it is deserved. There is no conspiracy to keep blacks down, especially that of the strong black female.
QT purposely put some comedic situations within Django for very specific reasons. If white people laughed at those it is not because they are uncaring, racist, or white supremacist, it is because they were intended to be amusing situations. This ridiculous and close-minded generalization by some of you comes from the same place as labeling any non-black American who did not vote for Obama as a racist, and not, possibly- just possibly, someone who may hold an entirely different political point of view.
Calling for BET for a black awards show is racist and, again, a further perpetuation of a clear separation of races. Enough already with this nonsense. There is no need for a BET or NAACP in this day and age as Jim Crow is ancient history, and any leg up given to any person of ANY race or another is racist through and through. Any and all racism that you may perceive is most likely solely in your own minds alone and, save for affirmative action, there is absolutely no institutional racism left in this country today. Stop saying the N-word to one another and stop thinking that you are treated any differently than whites. Until you do, sadly, American society cannot fully realize its potential as a whole and complete society. It is 2013 and we are all equal.
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@Kiwi
Again, stop putting words in people’s mouth and thoughts in their minds, as in here:
“When you refer to “American thinking”, it doesn’t take much to infer which Americans you had in mind, especially knowing the audience of Abagond’s blog.”
Don’t INFER things, I don’t hide what I think. I am clear.
And about this one, for sure I was expecting it: “You mention your black spouse as if that proves anything about you. Not very convincing.”
You want to “be right”. You don’t take one word people say into account. You think you know others. Well, if it does you good in real life, good for you.
But I doubt it.
And thank you for comparing me with white slavers.
I really don’t see what there is to compare between willing married partners in 2013 with children and white slavers and their slaves during slavery. If you think there is, then you have a big problem with your analysis of facts. And consequently of people.
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@Bulanik
I am with you on your analysis. Jewish people do not agree between themselves.
I was just trying to say that the difference between Jews and Afro-descendents is not that cut. Jews have suffered from racism and rejection for centuries. And of course there are similarities between both groups’ treatments by Europeans.
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@son2380
It’s not that I will do anything to defend him, it’s that I find your arguments for Tarantino being a racist to be weak. I’m open to the argument but none of what is being said proves it. For instance, in your response to me you say there was no Jewsish hate speech in Inglorious Basterds…seriously, dude, seriously? The most memorable scene in the movie is rife with jewish hate speech and violence against jews.
Also, I didn’t generalize black people. Do I really need to qualify every usage of the phrase black people, so that you get I don’t mean every single black person? I already said I don’t like the word, so I thought the point was clear. There are black people who use the word. That’s all I meant.
Just because Tarantino writes racist characters doesn’t mean he is racist. Racism is a significant part of American existence. Tarantino is one of the few writers/directors who shows how ugly it is. I truly believe that’s the problem people have with Tarantino. His depiction of racism is so harsh and in your face. The complaint is he uses the n-word too much. You want watered down racism, where blacks are only called n-words ten times instead of forty or whatever.
The message of Tarantino’s movies isn’t you should hate black people. You ask why is the Nazi character in the movie talking about black people? Maybe it was Tarantino’s way of showing a more accurate picture of who the Nazi’s were. They didn’t just hate Jews, they hated a whole lot of people.
I hate the n-word, but I’m against banning it as well being against making it innocuous and meaningless. Both ideas come down to the same thing to me: forgetting slavery and the rest of the oppression our people have faced and continues to face since then. It is down right blasphemous in my eyes. No other word can express the horror of black existence in America so readily as the n-word. No other word evokes those feelings. I applaud Tarantino for using the n-word in it proper context as a horrible and degrading word.
Yes, I understand hearing the n-word makes you uncomfortable and angry. It makes me feel those things, as well. Tarantino wants you to feel uncomfortable and angry. It’s the writer’s job to make you feel. But you shouldn’t turn your anger on Tarantino. He’s just the messenger. You should be angry at actual racism. Talking about racism is not racism, no matter the skin color of the messenger.
I’m pretty sure this is all over the place…sorry.
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Kiwi, what is an “Arab Jew” ??
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@ Bulanik
Sorry, thanks for reminding (in so many ways) that I forgot to respond to you. Books and Manuscripts is a moniker of sorts; it is a title given by most organizations that have such a department in their program. Sotheby’s, Christie’s, and most universities have one. Although there are indeed many books that do use this word frequently (and yes they are written by whites), I was speaking mainly of personal documents (bill of sales for slaves/ property, last will and testaments, and that of handwritten personal letters in both professional and personal fashion alike). I have a particular will written by a gentleman in Kentucky who has bequeathed his property to his wife and children. He cites cows, chickens and “niggers” frequently. The unfortunate one that sticks out is, “To my dearest daughter Molly, I leave Hannah’s newest nigger baby, Betty.” It has always struck me that the final document that this man wishes read to his family and friends upon his demise, as he has left this world, include this terrible word. But, as my point was made in an earlier comment to this point, this was completely acceptable for this time and geographical location. Yes, many did use the word “negro” in official documents of the time, but you will find that in Georgia and Mississippi during Antebellum, the more harsher of the two was used more so. This is what baffles my mind to no end in our modern society. Jim Crow opponents fought tooth and nail to rid the American lexicon of this racial slur and yet modern youthful blacks seemed to embrace it as passionately as “homeboy” back in the day. It is the same with the incendiary subject of fatherless children within the black community. Slave men would have happily and voluntarily chopped of an appendage from their own bodies to keep their spouse and children together within their family nucleus. Somehow, a century and a half later, wires have been crossed and the situation has imploded on itself. Yes, whites, Hispanics, and any other races of people have clear examples of men abandoning their children, but no where near the epidemic that has been seen within the black community. Like or hate his movie, QT has brought all of this to the forefront once again for debate.
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@ Legion
Exactly my point. Change the ending inflection to an “a”, or speak it from one black to another, and no one bats an eye. It is from an historical viewpoint, and as we are all adults here, and somewhat intelligent people debating an issue; AND because it did indeed survive censorship, you do kinda have to deal with it, Legion- for you are not many. I thank Abagond for the leniency and understanding as to the point I was making at the inclusion of the word in its original form; and furthermore, if such historical diction were omitted from the discussion I would take my leave and allow the lot of you to your biased and unchallenged discussions on how this country is out to thwart your every advancement.
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“if such … I would take my leave and allow the lot of you to your biased and unchallenged discussions on how this country is out to thwart your every advancement.”
*********
Challenging discussions???
There’s more than plenty of those to read and enjoy on this blog. YOU should read them, and perhaps write a lot LESS – that is until you have something meaningful or intelligent to add. As of right now, I doubt that anyone here is much impressed with your words, your ideas or presence.
Speaking of meaningful, there’s a BROKEN RECORD dept you should visit.
Folks (trolls) like you are a dime a dozen… They drop in periodically, regularly – spew the sort of nonsense arguments that you utter as if we’ve never seen, or heard, them before.
Same old silly whiteness arguments, same white patriarchy, white is right attitude and arrogance… just a different day, different troll.
You offer nothing new or challenging, except for maybe a few new commenters/readers, or young inexperienced people who haven’t yet seen this common type of troll derailment, deflection, denial and delusional… “racism doesn’t exist anymore!” tripe.
Yes, please do leave the lot of us alone to remain in our blissful & biased discussions about .. whatever.
Unless you’re here to learn something (somehow I doubt that) this isn’t the place for you, but all isn’t lost. StormFront is always enrolling new members.
Cheers!!
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I saw DJango today, And I was surprised to see so many young people their (ages 7-12-look like from their sizes). QT film have the same type of brand to them. I knew that coming in, so for me it was quite refreshing to see AA hero trying to find his love which was like him, AA for a change. It was entertaining.
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@ Matari
Please. StormFront, Nation of Islam, Black Panthers…they’re all the same. There is nothing you can teach me besides insight into your own opinion, which I will gladly, and respectfully, consider. This is a pro-black blog and I am gratefully a guest, but imagine this were pro-white? There is no such thing in today’s mainstream and that is the hypocrisy of the situation. As the old axiom goes: none of us here had anything to do with slavery; nor our parents or grandparents, and yet, a free pass is given to anyone of color to comment on such matters. Any other, like myself, need only listen to ANY person of color to get the truth as my opinions are nothing more than trivial trolling. I have heard that before as well; usually from those with little fodder in which to engage in a healthy and friendly debate.
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@kushite prince the clip you posted was a real eye opener. I’m not a big movie fan but have seen many of QTs films and am now not remembering them so fondly…he even loves the N word enough to write a small part for himself where he gets to say it over and over. I could swallow the argument that it *might* be a decent representation for Django but since he shoe horns the word and other racist themes into so much of his work I think that’s all the proof right there.
Kinda made me think about a clip I saw of a Die Hard movie recently where Bruce Willis was made to walk in a “black neighbourhood” and with a tshirt saying “I hate niggers”. No relevance, obviously just a white writer finding the idea funny/fantasising about saying it himself.
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@ Ali
Funny you should mention that Die Hard scene because I watched that the other day on TV and the edit changed the sign to, “I Hate Cops”. I thought it rather amusing.
Also, watch your full use of the N-word lest Legion give up a speech on its inappropriate use.
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Dear Agabond, Have you ever seen this article: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/Henrietta-Lacks-Immortal-Cells.html Sincere Follower, Jean
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@ dorisjean23
I have heard of Henrietta Lacks, but not that article. Thanks. I will be doing a post on her.
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I think it’s interesting how in this movie everyone who deserved to die did, even the guy who “freed” him did.
I’m not sure he counts as a white savior, he didn’t do it out of the goodness of his heart, at least not initially and he enslaved the guy for his own uses despite not being comfortable with slavery. Then he pretty much murder that guy for being an ex-rustler despite for all intents and purposes that guy apparently having spent the last couple years being reformed and working on the side of the law and kills another in front of his son.
The sister didn’t get away with her crimes of being a slaver despite being a woman.
Nor did Jackson’s character avoid the costs of his sins.
Django didn’t come off as a black brute to me, he wasn’t dumb, the people he killed deserved to die and he wasn’t portrayed as animalistic in any way or as something for white people to fear in general.
Honestly story wise it probably would have worked better without Dr. King but I’m also pretty sure it would have hurt the profits for the movie.
As for why many white people laughed at violent parts is because a lot of them were semi-comedy, depending on which ones you’re talking about.
Django as a movie was okay; it wasn’t the best movie of all time but it was definitely worth watching.
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@ kingswood road
@ Legion
thanks both for comments on the use of the full N word… And thank you Abagond for this great blog, been lurking for a long time not commenting until that one just now as I don’t have much to add but a lot to learn.
Anyway I’m more than a bit disturbed by the two QT clips that were posted, he’s definitely not someone to be addressing these issues IMO, not that he cares what anyone thinks.
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@Ali Thanks I’m glad you found the clip useful. These racist demon Tarantino needs to be exposed. His slave fantasy film is not about black empowerment or liberation. We can not be deceived by these films that insult our intelligence and make light of what our ancestors endured. I also agree with you about that Die Hard scene. I remember it well. It really did seem to be just thrown in for the hell of it.
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@V-4, how would the story have worked without Dr. King?
If you ask me, Western, acknowledging slavery with AA hero and AA damsel in distress, GOOD, we should have had a couple more of them, for at least half a century.
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No, it’s not you. Geez, what a nut job!
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I don’t know but to me part of the reason it seemed kind of “rambling” was because King was basically able to rescue and point him in the right direction versus him escaping on his own and figuring out where she was through some means and then tracking her down.
Though I suppose the end part with the dinner etc…..would have to be done differently but it could still be done by having Django essentially having aspects of the Dr. King character merged with his own.
I will admit I’m hardly a writer or movie director so this is pretty much my own uninformed opinion here.
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@ Kushite Prince:
“We can not be deceived by these films that insult our intelligence and make light of what our ancestors endured.”
This is just one of the reasons why, we need to tell stories of our history as Black people, because white people make films about our history, to make money, not for empowerment or liberation.
Black people have always been used by white people for their benefit, they still continue to do it today.
White directors will never make a slavery film, like roots in this day and age, they’ll only make watered down versions of movies on slavery.
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@ All,
what would be a movie list that tells a better story regarding slavery? I can only think of three- Sankofa, Nightjohn and Roots. Am I missing any others?
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I’m sorry to point this out, but some of the complaints here about this movie sound like you’re waiting for a white savior where Blacks expect Whites to set the record straight from the Black view or save them.
Do you think that Whites even with the best of intentions can ever view slavery the way a black American person does? They can never do that because it’s not a part of their collective unconsciousness. Any movie made is going to be skewed.
It’s the same as expecting a man to accurately describe the agony of a woman’s labor pains during childbirth or how about asking a man to describe menstrual cramps.
I know that people on here don’t want to hear this, but with today’s technology, by now all of you who don’t like the way Whites show Black history could have set up a movie making company and be well on the way to telling Black history the way you want it told.
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What??? Do it OURSELVES!!??
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Tarantino
That’s all you need to know.
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I think we need to get away from this false self-imposed notion that anyone can do anything for themselves if they put their mind to it. Of course there will always be exceptions and individuals who can make this notion true.
But for the vast majority it is a social denial of entrenched male and white privilege. Which to those in denial of this reality maybe something they equally choose not to hear.
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^It’s not necessary that everybody Black can do it, it’s just necessary that somebody Black can do it.
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But for the vast majority it is a social denial of entrenched male and white privilege. Which to those in denial of this reality maybe something they equally choose not to hear.
Then, it sounds like you’re saying that I as a Black woman should pretty much just slit my wrists and get it over with since I’m neither male nor white. If the vast majority of Black women were to accept what you say, we are already doomed.
I can hear what you’re saying but I refuse to accept that as my reality because whatever barrier one human being or group can erect, another can tear down or maneuver around if they use their wits and time in the best way. White people and male people are just human beings.
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@kiwi
Thanks for checking Cornlia. I think anyone with half a brain knows that the word “Negroes” is offensive to many people in the states. I also believe Alphonse knew what he was doing when he wrote that. Now, I know USA is not the center of the world. But this post was about an American made film, with Mainly American actors and a very American subject.
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@sondis Thanks a lot brother. I appreciate the comments. I totally agree with everything you said.
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@lifelearner; Here is a cople that I own. Brother Future, even though it is a fantasy/science fiction I enjoy it. It’s mixed with the time travel meme and historical facts.I learned quite a lot from it. Where I wanted to learn about people like Denmark Veasy, and others who played a part in the history of our people. Another film is Up From Slavery is rather pedantic but there is much to learn about this horrific system that oppressed our people here in America. Hope this was helpful. I enjoy these.
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@Jorbia; Great points eloquently stated.
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@lifelearner; I also have Slavery By Any Other Name. I have this in my Amazon cart. It is a PBS film. check it out I think this one is going to be enlightening and knowledge is power.
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^ Fascinating! Threadworthy!
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@King; Asante Sana.
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^ Starehe!
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@ King
“…It’s not necessary that everybody Black can do it, it’s just necessary that somebody Black can do it…”
This is exactly why we have some one like Barack Obama in the White House. It helps to keep the illusion alive.
Also, glad to see I am not alone in my views from watching the man QT in interview. Now where is the equivalent African-America film producer with a perverse interest in graphic violence and a child-like view on its consequences.
Would America even allow such a person to make films?
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@Mary Burrell-Thanks! I’ll add that to my list.
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@ Jorbia & Legion
Its not the point, as King pointed out, that some Black people can achieve great success and the equivalent accomplishes or more of their white counterparts.
It is the point that the vast majority of African-Americans and other POC are discouraged and prevented from achieving to the best of their natural abilities.
What is the point in being the exception to this reality when you know the vast majority are being prevented from achieving it ? This is a moral question for you both to consider. Are your interests in furthering just yourself or yourself & others as well?
Let me phrase it another way…What is the point in being the African-American president of the United States if you are simply going to preside over policies endorsing the same system of inequality and injustice that has pervaded the country for hundreds of years purposely subverting the American dream?
Surely there has to be an alternative than just more of the same?
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@Kwamla–
This is exactly why we have some one like Barack Obama in the White House. It helps to keep the illusion alive.
Obama’s feat of becoming president may not be a source of inspiration to you, but it is to many Black people around the world. He has accomplished what was once thought as unthinkable. More Black people need to aim for the “unthinkable.” They may not achieve it but some will come close.
It is the point that the vast majority of African-Americans and other POC are discouraged and prevented from achieving to the best of their natural abilities.
That’s because so many POC place premium value on the approval of White people. They idolize White people and then get angry at White people for not liking them back. White people are just human beings, not gods. Why don’t POC seek out the approval of each other? They would be lots more successful at doing that. Just imagine that this whole site were devoted to that. That is something that POC could teach each other, to approve of each other. Why is there all of this moaning here about how white people don’t like or approve of black people or other POC? Don’t you see it’s a waste of effort to keep moaning?
What is the point in being the exception to this reality when you know the vast majority are being prevented from achieving it ? This is a moral question for you both to consider. Are your interests in furthering just yourself or yourself & others as well?
So, you think it’s immoral to try to achieve because many other Black Americans have decided not to achieve? If your enslaved or colonized ancestors had accepted that, you wouldn’t even be able to write on the internet! I’m sorry, but that sounds like a defeatist attitude to me.
There is not just one reality, but in your reality, what exactly is preventing lots of Black Americans from achieving more? Achievement happens in steps. Let’s look at education. What exactly is stopping more Black Americans from getting more education and developed skills? Having more education and skills give a person a few steps up everywhere in the world and helps them and their family to have a better life, but so many Black Americans feel that getting more education is acting white. Many hi-tech jobs are being farmed out to other countries while so many Black American males are trying to get into the NBA or dropping out of high school trying to become rappers.
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Abagond
The fact that a blackman went to hell and back to rescue his “Black Queen” is a beautiful thing. And, Django was able to exact revenge on white slaveholders and their minions, even more beautiful. Black people, don’t overly politicize the movie. The movie is about a blackman walking thru the fire for a blackwoman, see it for what it is.
Tyrone
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There’s something essentially wrong with this movie – in *my imagination*.
Django Unchained reinforces the lack of brotherhood, cooperation, trust, assistance that is STILL too prevalent in today’s (lack of a formidable) black community.
This hollywood depiction instead showcased – imo – the mistrust, jealousy, fear, suspicion, indifference, even outright hatred too many psychologically CONFUSED black men had/have for one another.
Here’s the movies premise: A freed black would be hero gunslinger has only his wits and the wits of his WHITE benefactor aka SAVIOR to rely on – with no direct help or aid coming from any black individual. This seems like a play/strategy straight out of the racist/white supremacist HANDBOOK to me. What’s the reinforcing (subliminal?) message?
We’re better off trusting/relying on white people and/or just SELF, rather than expecting help from OUR OWN people. I reject this BS message!
——————-
Re: Obama’s presence in the oval office:
That’s simply another “play” from the white supremacist hand/playbook. Whiteness permits SOME blacks to have a slice of the pie while keeping the pie (power/money/etc) outside the reach of the majority.
As Kwamla succinctly put it:
*******
“This is exactly why we have some one like Barack Obama in the White House. It helps to keep the illusion alive.”
*******
The illusion being that whiteness is no longer a hindrance or enemy to black people. BS!
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@ Jorbia
“…Obama’s feat of becoming president may not be a source of inspiration to you, but it is to many Black people around the world. He has accomplished what was once thought as unthinkable. More Black people need to aim for the “unthinkable.” They may not achieve it but some will come close…”
You see Jorbia this is exactly the type of false dream you’ve bought into. Its also the one many African-Americans who initially voted for Obama are slowly waking up from: that he accomplished his high position in office by virtue of his own merit. This is an illusion!. But it is a purposeful illusion because it provides both hope and distraction from the real issues preventing the illusion from becoming the reality.
Just to remind you:
This is not defeatism. Its about non-compliance or non-acceptance.This may be a wake up call to you but it was those same entrenched male white elites who placed Obama in the high office of Presidency but left the Real Power in those same privileged male white hands.
This is exactly what we see with a “childish” film director like Quentin Tarantino. To date no equivalent (or near equivalent) African-American film director/producer has been given the opportunity to make a Hollywood supported and financed film about the true horrors of American plantation slavery. One that could be legitimately praised by Black or whites alike. Of course, if an African-American were to emerge with the same “brainwashed” mentality of Tarantino then they might have an appeal for manipulation in those same white, male and privileged hands!
“…That’s because so many POC place premium value on the approval of White people. They idolize White people and then get angry at White people for not liking them back…
What you describe here is the classic internalized-self-racial hatred – that has been so heavily debated and commented on this blog. What I wonder is why you don’t recognise or are unable to see this?
This is probably why my main point was lost on you:
I am not saying: “…it’s immoral to try to achieve because many other Black Americans have decided not to achieve…”. I am saying is it enough to achieve as an individual Black American knowing others have been or are being prevented from achieving as well?
As someone who appears to believe strongly in exclusive personal individual self achievement. It may not be a question that would necessarily concern or bother you. The irony is this. Its exactly the same promoted state and mentality of those same white male privileged elites: the accepted continued concentration of success and achievement into the hands of a select class of people – and to hell with rest!
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Django Unchained reinforces the lack of brotherhood, cooperation, trust, assistance that is STILL too prevalent in today’s (lack of a formidable) black community.
If there is actually any significant brotherhood, the movie would not be able to reduce it even if it’s not shown in the movie.
This hollywood depiction instead showcased – imo – the mistrust, jealousy, fear, suspicion, indifference, even outright hatred too many psychologically CONFUSED black men had/have for one another.
So a lot of Black men feel this way about one another? I wonder whether Abagond has done an article on this where black men discuss why they may feel this way towards one another with the intent of gradually getting rid of it. This is where the effort needs to be.
Here’s the movies premise . . . We’re better off trusting/relying on white people and/or just SELF, rather than expecting help from OUR OWN people. I reject this BS message!
Some Black people are mainly angry because they can’t rely on their own people.Goes back to what I said above that Black Americans need to learn to like and approve of each other and help each other. People primarily get help from their own people first and then get help from others. No matter what other people do for you, if you can’t depend on your own for an amount of help first, you will feel insecure because that means you have to depend on the whims of others.
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Kwamla, it sounds like you’re saying that any time a Black person achieves a high position, it can’t be due to merit. That sounds like White and some Black people who doubt any Black person’s actual abilities. They believe any Black person in a lofty position is in it due to affirmative action.
I am saying is it enough to achieve as an individual Black American knowing others have been or are being prevented from achieving as well?
I don’t know what you mean by “enough.” But I can’t force any other Black person to achieve and when Black people with my outlook try to encourage other Blacks to try harder, we’re often accused of what you’re accusing me of doing: buying into an illusion that Blacks actually CAN achieve. I believe in personal achievement because the only person I can actually control is myself.
I know that some Black Americans have been prevented from achieving. How would it help them for me not to achieve? If others actually are prevented now from achieving, how would it help them if I choose not to achieve now? Please answer. It sounds like you’re saying I should choose not to achieve in order to be in solidarity with Black Americans who have been prevented from achieving in the past and present. It does sound like you’re saying we should all just give up and slit our wrists. This sounds defeatist to me.
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Jorbia, for the first time i agree with you on something. 🙂
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@Kwamla–
Its exactly the same promoted state and mentality of those same white male privileged elites: the accepted continued concentration of success and achievement into the hands of a select class of people – and to hell with rest!
White male privileged elites banded together in order to do this. They put their intellect and their money together to come up with ways to do this, and some of those men and their ways were very savage and foul. Some Black men are savage and foul too, so there’s nothing that stops Black men from doing the same, aside from what Matari said above. The irony is that it’s obvious that many Black men want to be in the exact position of those White male elites but they don’t want to do what White male elites did to get there.
Men around the world band together to get and keep power. This is not a secret. The real question is why are more Black men not doing this? Please don’t start talking about Willie Lynch.
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@phoebeprunelle–
Jorbia, for the first time i agree with you on something.
Yikes!!This is definitely a red letter day!! 🙂
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@ Jorbia
As a Black person or POC it may be easy to deny the magnitude and extent of racism in society. Particularly when growing up in a society where the dominant way of thinking or behaving is to adopt this attitude. – Its what the majority of white people do all the time. And for most of the time they can seem to get away with it because it doesn’t really impact their lives.
But as a Black person or POC it becomes much more difficult to deny the impact of racism. Not saying it can’t be done. Why shouldn’t any “person of colour” be able to achieve this grand distinction on a par with other white people.
However, there is a further impact of racism besides its obvious externalised manifestation and is its Internalised one which can affect both Black and white people but in measuredly different ways. I mention this because internalised racism works against the self. Your sense of being and who you are. How you see yourself in the world. This aspect is much harder to deny because you reflect it all the time (most times unconsciously) to others and yourself. Some people question it others don’t or deny it. But just like externalised racism when you develop a true awareness of it. It makes it very hard to ignore, deny or explain it away.
This is (internalised racism) exactly what was captured in Matari’s statement that you commented on:
This is what Quentin Tarantino’s film perpetuates with no real explanation of how this came about. It promotes an acceptance of, in your words: “…the savage and foul nature of some Black men…”. Failing to point out, of course, that it was and is the savage and foul behaviour of white men (during slavery) that precipitated this type of mentality in the first place!
The reason why I am drawing your attention to this phenomenon of the affects of internalised racism amongst Black people is not to excuse it or play it down but to pace it in some form of social context where it can be understood rather than just condemned or denied for what it really is. So when I make this statement:
“…I am saying is it enough to achieve as an individual Black American knowing others have been or are being prevented from achieving as well?
[And you say:]
I don’t know what you mean by “enough….?”
I am asking is it enough to value exclusively self-personal achievement over personal achievement & collective community achievement? When we look at the portrayed hero Django what is he being shown to value most? And at the expense of who?
Its that lack of awareness of the phenomenon of internalised racism and the havoc it has wrecked on the Black community which would lead you to interpret my questioning the value of self-personal achievement as:
“…I know that some Black Americans have been prevented from achieving. How would it help them for me not to achieve?…”
So to put it another way…Its not about YOU NOT achieving. Its about YOU achieving in away that INCLUDES rather then EXCLUDES your community. Of course you can achieve exclusively by your self on your own merits but if you are lacking an awareness or a regard of the affects of racism (external and internal) this does nothing to address the symptoms or the disease. In fact it helps perpetuate it.
Basically there are multiple methods one can take to achieve in life.During slavery Harriet Tubman stands out as some one who choose to personally achieve freedom not just for herself and her family but others in her community too and continued to do so
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harriet_Tubman
Again…Of course I am not saying everybody should be like the Heroine Harriet Tubman was. (though of course it wouldn’t harm!) What I am saying though is if we behave as in the movie Django where as Matari states:
“…Here’s the movies premise . . . We’re better off trusting/relying on white people and/or just SELF, rather than expecting help from OUR OWN people. I reject this BS message!…”
Then this is what we end up embracing and striving to achieve as YOU say:
“…White male privileged elites banded together in order to do this. They put their intellect and their money together to come up with ways to do this, and some of those men and their ways were very savage and foul. Some Black men are savage and foul too, so there’s nothing that stops Black men from doing the same, aside from what Matari said above. The irony is that it’s obvious that many Black men want to be in the exact position of those White male elites but they don’t want to do what White male elites did to get there…”
The funny thing is this type of behaviour that wealthy white male elites engage in is destroying the whole economic, social, political and ecological structure of the planet. It creates a “dog eat dog” situation where no one individual can benefit or achieve anything lasting. So is it any wonder that most Black males shy of going down this route?
Equally in your case would you seriously advocate this type of personal self-interest success and achievement for Black women or for women of colour to strive for? This too would be ironic!
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Kwamla, I understand what you’re saying but the difference between us is how we choose to react or proact given the situation.
What I can’t endorse is the way so many Black Americans react to this situation because it doesn’t change anything for that individual Black person or Black people around them. There is more than one way to look at any situation, and to me, the way you look at this makes thing even worse because it makes Blacks look passive and helpless. It robs them of self-agency.
Particularly when growing up in a society where the dominant way of thinking or behaving is to adopt this attitude.
But my Black American parents didn’t adopt this attitude because they knew it would disable them. They rejected it and created a different reality for themselves, which is what I’m getting at here. They are just regular people from the usual background. So Black Americans don’t have to go along with any part of the White program that disables them. This is what they need to focus on. I think a lot of them do it because it’s easy or path of least resistance. They pay a high price. It seems like you’re saying you know it disables you, but Blacks don’t seem to be able to reject it. You seem to just want the bad part of the White program to just disappear so that Blacks don’t have to try to reject it.
About:
This hollywood depiction instead showcased – imo – the mistrust, jealousy, fear, suspicion, indifference, even outright hatred too many psychologically CONFUSED black men had/have for one another.
As I asked, has Abagond examined this in any of his articles. It would seem to me that the way Black men think about each other would be a high priority topic because any change that occurs will have to start there.
Blacks and Whites have internalized racism to varying extents. But not even all Blacks have internalized it to the same extent or the same way. Your co-signing Matari’s statement proves that.
If I felt this way about other Black people WHO I NEED, I’d be trying to fix it instead of trying to get others to understand that Whites made me feel this way. IMO, that’s wasted effort because understanding how and why something happened doesn’t change what happened. Social scientists study how and why. There’s been no shortage of all groups of social scientists studying racism for a long time. That hasn’t changed much, if anything. I’m more interested in those who fix.
So to put it another way…Its not about YOU NOT achieving. Its about YOU achieving in away that INCLUDES rather then EXCLUDES your community.
But you don’t know whether or who my achievement includes or excludes. I’d have to know your view of who is in my community because I don’t view my achievement as excluding my community. I contribute to the people who I view as my family and community in various ways. It seems that you view every Black person or POC as being in your community. I don’t.
What exactly are YOU doing for your community of Black people or POC? Be careful because someone could easily conclude that you’re not doing enough and that your’re not Black “enough.”
One of the things I dislike about Black Americans is that lots of them insist that you look at everything exactly the way they do, especially when it comes to racism, and if you don’t, then the other person is subjected to all sorts of accusations and suspicions. There is more than one reality. Why is my reality any less correct than yours when a person’s reality is mostly based on their experiences?
I think we’ve exposed the root of why more Black Americans don’t aim higher and try to reach their target. It’s because when they do, they’re viewed as not being Black “enough” or buying into an illusion. It’s obvious that Blacks like you are suspicious of Black Americans like me. We’re viewed as being in denial and borderline traitors. We’re excluded by Blacks like you because you push us away with your suspicions and accusations and then get angry when we move away. You then accuse us of excluding you. Oy vey!
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Abagond, my response to Kwamla is in moderation.
Kwamla, one thing I left out of my response was that Harriet Tubman was known for using a pistol or shotgun to include or force other Blacks, in some cases, to do what was best for themselves.
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@ Jorbia – I definitely agree with what you have stated above. Here’s a quote from Harriet Tubman that I love to reflect on from time to time.
To tie this back to the thread, I doubt that “Samuel Jackson’s character-Stephen” didn’t feel he was a slave that’s why he was such an Uncle Tom. This character would have been one Harriet Tubman couldn’t have help to save his own life.
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Or accusations of upholding bourgeoisness as a shaming tactic.
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upholding bourgeoisness as a shaming tactic.
Willy Lynch didn’t make you say that. You said it because you wanted to say it.
My parents made lots of sacrifices and took risks so that my siblings and I could and would achieve. We did achieve. My parents are proud of us. I’m sorry if that displeases some of you here. Blacks who don’t like Black achievers should leave us alone. Don’t expect anything from us because all you usually offer us is criticism.
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@lifelearner–
To tie this back to the thread, I doubt that “Samuel Jackson’s character-Stephen” didn’t feel he was a slave that’s why he was such an Uncle Tom. This character would have been one Harriet Tubman couldn’t have help to save his own life.
I didn’t see the movie yet so I can’t comment on it. But speaking of Harriet Tubman, I think she mostly “proacted”, not reacted.
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@Jorbia,
I think you misunderstood my statement…
your statement:
I was simply reinforcing what you said here by illustrating another way in which educated and goal oriented Black Americans are perceived by some other Blacks–too often we get accused of upholding “bougie” mentalities and belief system all in attempt to shame and silence us.
You get me now? 🙂
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Sorry phoebeprunelle, considering how you’ve misinterpreted and attacked my positions in some other threads, I misinterpreted you here!
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@Jorbia,
With all past misunderstandings aside (for right now) lol…i have to agree with much of what you’ve said on this thread….
What truly inhibits Black progress is a mentality that we ALL have to strive for mediocrity because wanting to have more is “white” and isolates other Blacks–which are just smokescreens to avoid facing a painful reality-many of us at this point in the game are anti-intellectual and refuse to see the big picture in life which are these things:
1. Education opens the doors to a middle class life (e.g. making sure that your spouse and children are financially secure and can enjoy life) Studies have shown time and time again that children who are born into poverty are more likely to stay in poverty the duration of their lives.
2. Marriage like never before is tied to wealth. The single life cannot sustain Black economic power.
I love myself and other Black people but i will not soften the truth about us just to avoid being called out for not being “Black enough”… it’s silly and senseless to harbor resentment towards other Black people for simply getting up and doing what is supposed to be done.
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But antyway…
With regards to the film–i haven’t seen it so i am speculating here–the name “Django Unchained” seems to be a subconscious way to acknowledge the power of the Black man when he is mentally free or “unchained” from whiteness. I think Tyrone was saying something to this effect up thread:
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The movie is about a blackman walking thru the fire for a blackwoman,
Men protect women and women have fa lot of respect for men who do this. If not for the violence mentioned, I’d take my nephews with me to see this movie.
@ phoebeprunelle–
With all past misunderstandings aside (for right now) lol…i have to agree with much of what you’ve said on this thread….
Well, glad that you finally saw the light. lol
The area I recall you being most in the dark in those other threads was when you kept pretending there are plenty of good Black dudes in America who want to marry Black women. Didn’t agree then and won’t ever.
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“We did achieve. My parents are proud of us. I’m sorry if that displeases some of you here. Blacks who don’t like Black achievers should leave us alone. Don’t expect anything from us because all you usually offer us is criticism.”
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From my perspective Jorbia, I’m not aware of anyone here on this blog who is black and does not like like/enjoy “Black achievers.” We may have different points of views, but I truly doubt that any regular here is anti-black or anti-black success.
In my estimation, every black person that posts on this blog is an achiever/survivor in some form or fashion. At the very least (I could be incorrect) their “thinking” and openness and EXPOSURE to debate, new evolving ideas/paradigms/growth is an achievement in itself.
Much of what goes on here is encouragement, learning and challenging/testing of ideas, opinions – and more. : ))
This is a very unique and special blog regarding the “upliftment” (yeah, I know that’s not a word) and VINDICATION of black people.
Welcome home, Jorbia!
Just continue saying whatever is on your heart.
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Matari…Thats a very spiritually aware and uplifting comment. I enjoyed that! Perhaps others here will too.
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@Matari–
Welcome home, Jorbia!
Just continue saying whatever is on your heart.
Well, thanks. 🙂
Where I have a problem with your statement about the movie is that you seem to be blaming the movie for purposely reinforcing and furthering the distrust and divisions between Black men. That’s cockeyed because it feeds into the conspiracy theories that so many Black Americans have about their situation and it shifts the responsibility of fixing that distrustful relationship from Blacks to Whites. It’s not the movie’s job or White peoples’ job to foster trust between Blacks or teach them to work together.
IMO, saying that I don’t understand internalized racism is a cop out and an easy way to escape taking responsibility for changing.
The bad relationships between Black men is at the heart of every issue in the Black world. This keeps them from using whatever amount and type of resource to band together to resolve even minor issues. It keeps them weak, confused, insecure and dependent on White men, just like in the movie. Added to that, women don’t want those kind of men. It doesn’t matter what the history is because it happened yesterday.
Since men are supposed to be the leaders and so many of them don’t work together, then how can the Black world ever grow healthy and strong. Why is it that the Black men don’t use what they know of the past to shift all of the energy on Black men fixing each other today? These blaming orgies are a waste of time.
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Some info from the other side of the Atlantic.
Claude Ribbe, French historian, philosopher, author and film director has loved Tarantino’s film.
Ribbe writes and has written and made films about the Dumases, Chevalier Saint-Georges, Eugene Bulalrd, etc, and is very active on the French scene against racists.
He says he almost didn’t go see the film because of the calls he heard from African-Americans like Spike Lee and is now glad that he went.
Also, Ribbe seems to say that Tom Reiss relied A LOT on HIS own work about the Dumases to write his current best-seller…
French readers (or you can use an online translator), check out his website.
http://www.claude-ribbe.com
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I also came across this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS34OiuNmG0&feature=youtu.be
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^^Dick Gregory interviewed here on the film and Spike Lee.
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I love the “Your Comment is Awaiting moderation” for Mr Gregory’s first name. I hadn’t thought about it 😉
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@Jorbia
I definitely agree with black self agency, but isn’t anti-black racism the enemy of black self agency? If it were even possible for most black people to be perfect under the rules of white supremacy, the rules would just change again. Until white supremacy is fixed, black people will always be on the defensive, reacting to whatever new racist tactic white supremacist come up with. Black self agency isn’t enough, unless you include blacks helping white people to not be racist(or helping other blacks to recognize racism) as black self agency.
“One of the things I dislike about Black Americans is that lots of them insist that you look at everything exactly the way they do, especially when it comes to racism…”
Don’t most people insist others look at things the way they do? Isn’t that normal? Rhetorical question: What other things do you not like about Black Americans?
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@solesearch–
but isn’t anti-black racism the enemy of black self agency?
No. You always have self-agency whether you use it or not. Racism can be a big enemy or just an annoyance, especially to Blacks like my Dad. He views it as only an annoyance that is sometimes on the periphery of his life.
It’s mainly Black Americans in this country who talk about or think white “supremacy.” I think that word in itself plants a defeating notion in some of your brains.
I don’t think Abagond wants me to take the thread off track by talking about my likes and dislikes.
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You’re right we do always have self agency, meaning there is always something we can do. So, no racism doesn’t remove all black self agency, but it does restrict it, heavily. For African Americans the most important thing we can do to express and increase our self agency is to fight racism. Ignoring racism is not an option. You and your father are able to ignore it today, because a lot of other African Americans haven’t been ignoring it.
White racists are concerned with oppressing as many blacks as they can and they have a lot of power to do so since they control powerful governments. White people set the standards – they don’t live by them, but they set them, and if you(black people) don’t fit their standards you get fired, arrested or invaded.
It’s hardly self agency when you don’t make the rules. You’re just suited to the rules, at least until more black people catch on and they change the rules again. First it was slavery, then it was Jim Crow, today it’s mass incarceration by way of a drug war.
“It’s mainly Black Americans in this country who talk about or think white “supremacy.” I think that word in itself plants a defeating notion in some of your brains.”
We’re the most affected by white supremacy, we should be thinking about it. I think actually experiencing racism plants more of a “defeating notion” than the word does. So instead of us getting rid of the word we should just get rid of white supremacy.
“I don’t think Abagond wants me to take the thread off track by talking about my likes and dislikes.”
The question was rhetorical.
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Jorbia
“Where I have a problem with your statement about the movie is that you seem to be blaming the movie for purposely reinforcing and furthering the distrust and divisions between Black men.”
*******
Well yeah, I am. Because that’s how whiteness works!! Sometimes Jorbia, we see things right in front of us – the obvious, i.e. hero rescues damsel in distress.. the violence, blood, and other things we’ve been conditioned to see as NORMAL, yet we often don’t fully see it for what it really is – or we don’t understand the essence or conditioning we’re looking at and its ill effects.
This thread is ABOUT this movie – I saw an unexplored/not discussed aspect thereof … I was calling out (indirectly) how Hollywood (whiteness) has ALWAYS shaped and conditioned – it’s audience, blacks and whites’ thinking to varying degrees and effects.
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“That’s cockeyed because it feeds into the conspiracy theories that so many Black Americans have about their situation …”
********
There are no accidents nor coincidences where whiteness is concerned, imo. Your use of the phrase “conspiracy theories” suggests to me that you believe millions of black people over hundreds of years seemingly have the same “cockeyed” **IMAGINED** EXPERIENCES.
There’s not much that’s “theoretical” about the debilitating effects of racism/white supremacy. The FACTUAL evidence, however, is frankly overwhelming – for anyone who’s willing to see it.
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“and it shifts the responsibility of fixing that distrustful relationship from Blacks to Whites.”
*********
Really?
Notice that I didn’t say black people (men) were not responsible for throwing off the BS regarding our own shortcomings. And I certainly didn’t say or imply that white people are responsible for fixing us. Though I do believe we (or those of us who would accept it) are owed reparations, restitution, and some of the tremendous wealth blackness generated for the U.S. But that’s another matter.
BTW, have you ever read anywhere on this blog where a black male commenter has said or suggested that whites should fix OUR problems??
In my mind, the closest thing that comes near to whites fixing our problems is that many of us here wish that white supremacy/racism would just go away.
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“Why is it that the Black men don’t use what they know of the past to shift all of the energy on Black men fixing each other today? These blaming orgies are a waste of time.”
************
Well Jorbia, evidently you and I come at this problem from two different perspectives. You call it “blame” and I see it as “analysis.” I get that you’re impatient, as am I, though perhaps not as much as you. Personally, as a FIXER, I prefer to understand how a thing works, and how it broke … so I can make the fix more viable. Obviously this is a very deep and complex issue.
BTW, have you ever sought to help someone who didn’t see their need for help?? I recommend that you read up on Neely Fuller – as he breaks down the hurdles/complexities of sharing with certain victims of racism/white supremacy.
A 400 year old habit of mistrust will hardly be fixed overnight. We’d be doing really great if we could find a way to cause the next generation to break this tragic cycle of non-solidarity/self-hate. Have you any ideas …??
However bleak the outcome seems, I’m sure there’s positive movements here and there towards an organized community of blacks/Africans looking to further our own people.
We NEED each other – in order to be a positive functional people/family … because we can’t do this without trust and cooperation. We certainly can’t do it alone. Else we remain in the same messed up loop …
I truly wish you well.
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Morning all!
I recently became aware of this awesome blog by way of Tumblr and recent almost “addicted lurker” at this point, I would like to weigh in…Please bear with me because my brain is still processing (and excitedly so) what I have read in the last couple of days.
As a preface, I’m an AA woman, early 30’s married with kids. And honestly, the exchange between Jorbia and Kwamla is what spurred my desire to post. I’ll resist the urge to write the long response I wanted to before I looked at the time, and say that my interpretation of what Kwamla was saying vs. what Jorbia was saying felt more like a “forest vs. trees” argument.
Kwamla’s assessment felt more “foresty”, especially when speaking of blacks’ achievements as individuals:
“I am not saying: “…it’s immoral to try to achieve because many other Black Americans have decided not to achieve…” I am saying is it enough to achieve as an individual Black American knowing others have been or are being prevented from achieving as well?
As someone who appears to believe strongly in exclusive personal individual self-achievement. It may not be a question that would necessarily concern or bother you. The irony is this. It’s exactly the same promoted state and mentality of those same white male privileged elites: the accepted continued concentration of success and achievement into the hands of a select class of people – and to hell with rest!”
~Many of your posts resonated with me, Kwamla. I’m this very enriching and very personal, spiritual path I’m on—I call it life, I am understanding the divisive and addictive nature of “expectation” and how you stated your opinion, hit home for me. It made me think of the words success and what that means. I talk about this all the time with my coworkers. What is successful and who defines it? Is it education, monetary wealth, “high profile” connections, a large stock portfolio and huge retirement 401, what? I admit, I would have answered this question very differently as few as 2 years ago.
I agree with you 100% that it is the white, already wealthy machine that is white privilege that has shaped this distraction and hammered home the notion to everyone watching and listening that “this” is what your life’s work, your effort to achieve should be. I look at the celebrities that black youth upholds so dearly and idolizes because they “made it.” The Jay Z’s and Beyonce’s of this country. Accepted by blacks because they are accepted (and paid) by whites. Irony, indeed. Is the “love and admiration” historical, ingrained, almost to knee-jerk status as many blacks’ life ambition? I believe so. And what benefits have we reaped? Cologne? Clothing? Branded alcohol? Free concerts? Or the feeling of pride when they are listed in Forbes magazine as the highest paid ___________? Ugh, but I digress…
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Jorbia, I understood as an individual tree, one of many and the inner working, mentality and more up close history of how success is viewed among AA.
“…So Black Americans don’t have to go along with any part of the White program that disables them. This is what they need to focus on. I think a lot of them do it because it’s easy or path of least resistance. They pay a high price. It seems like you’re saying you know it disables you, but Blacks don’t seem to be able to reject it. You seem to just want the bad part of the White program to just disappear so that Blacks don’t have to try to reject it.”
~I really didn’t get that message from him. I don’t know who the “they” are you are referring to, but what I did get from his statement is that at any time almost any place, a black person can be “checked” by the system, if you will. The POTUS couldn’t even escape it with all the BS scrutiny he went through. America is the “white program” and I feel like real success in it, is to help eradicate it. Unplug yourself from the Matrix if you will. And to instill this passion in ourselves would naturally bring about the desire to read more, learn more, do more each other, even if it’s one impoverished child at a time. Hardly a measure of “success” by American standards, but so very necessary.
“Men around the world band together to get and keep power. This is not a secret. The real question is why are more Black men not doing this? Please don’t start talking about Willie Lynch.”
~I do believe that this gets to the meat of your statements regarding blacks’ attitudes toward each other and the crab in barrel mentality that can cloud team working attitudes and “progress”. My personal opinions about those who hold “power” in this world are not thoughts of admiration. They are divisive, calculating, thieving, selfish, reckless and the MOST secretive and exclusive of any in gang I can think in the modern world. I agree with Kwamla that people with a soul and a connection to others human beings wouldn’t even be interested in trying to conquer the world…it feels like a really bad movie plot. Like history has shown us, over and over, these wide reaching attempts at power do not work in the long run. Your precious belongings can be confiscated, your savings frozen, your job terminated, or any number of things the govt or any other ruling class can justify necessary in the name of national security, freedom and all the rest of those empty monikers they repeat like bible verses.
“But you don’t know whether or who my achievement includes or excludes. I’d have to know your view of who is in my community because I don’t view my achievement as excluding my community. I contribute to the people who I view as my family and community in various ways. It seems that you view every Black person or POC as being in your community. I don’t.”
~ I don’t know…I was kind of saddened by this because I do think we are all family, community. Even in the crazy, racist based and irrational ways “black” and “white” are used to describe a plethora of history and culture in America and even abroad. We cannot escape the stigma that comes with American Black and that is why with all its flaws we should embrace each other, good and bad as human and help redefine the meaning of what success is, just as whites have done and continued to do. We are excluded enough, I think.
“I think we’ve exposed the root of why more Black Americans don’t aim higher and try to reach their target. It’s because when they do, they’re viewed as not being Black “enough” or buying into an illusion. It’s obvious that Blacks like you are suspicious of Black Americans like me. We’re viewed as being in denial and borderline traitors. We’re excluded by Blacks like you because you push us away with your suspicions and accusations and then get angry when we move away. You then accuse us of excluding you. Oy vey!”
~ I bolded this to say that I’m happy to report in all my success, I have not been ostracized by other blacks because of my achievements. I do think these statements make lots of implications and have a lot of ingrained teaching and assumption in it, but it’s great to report that this “Hater” attitude is becoming more prevalent as a FaceBook status and the assumption is vocalized more when WHITES and other “model” minorities think you are a Magical Negro who has escaped the inescapable (poverty, welfare, illiteracy, everything bad about US) and made it. So they ask (as I have been) “Why are your people this way or that? I mean, you did well for yourself…” I most certainly do not have to explain everything wrong with this statement.
Furthermore, I don’t really agree that believing in this notion is a defeatist attitude or an excuse; I recognize it for what it is and its role, whether it is barely nonexistent, or a huge factor in the inner workings of my personal life. We all sleep and wake to live another day regardless.
I feel that both POV are necessary for the eradication of white privilege in this country. And I do believe that this machine, this culture of privilege with all of its individual working parts, will have to be closely and publically inspected, dismantled and rebuilt or this will continue to be a war of ideals and no action.
And so mmmaaaaannnny words later, when you take all worldly things away, you are left with people, air, water and earth. And as a human race, I think we have lost our way from each other. And I am done chasing rabbits or fiat wealth or whatever else the media says I should be concerned about. I can only be. And be thankful and loving and peaceful and all of the monikers I do personally believe in and will teach my children to embrace as well.
This is a great discussion.
Sorry, I know it’s really long.
Peace,
SugarKiss
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@ Matari
Your reply, spot on! We need each other indeed….
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Kwamla
SugarKiss
I appreciate the encouragement! Thank you.
If only WE could get the *we need each other* message (back) OUT THERE – in tangible ways – with urgency – resonating, amplified so that our children or their children might reap the rewards/benefits of a much more united interdependent people.
There are so many ways that we can begin to do this! Beginning with more interaction/involvement with our youth – and each other.
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[…] Recently awarded “Best Supporting Actor” (Christoph Waltz) and “Best Screenplay” at the Golden Globe Awards, “Django Unchained” has already been released in the USA, on December 25th, but its Romanian premiere is today, January 18th. It is a period film about slaves and a couple of brave men willing to fight the slave hunters and merchants. An excellent performance by Jamie Foxx (Django), a slave who breaks free with the aid of a bounty hunter, Dr. King Schultz (Christoph Waltz). The two decide to work together in order to locate the Brittle brothers, three killers working for a plantation owner, Calvin Candie as Leonardo DiCaprio. The movie is full of action, violence and drama. Also, great special effects and excellent acting! Hats off to Quentin Tarantino for producing this work of art! […]
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Love this exchange. Thank you Sugarkiss, Matari, Kwamla- for your insight.
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@ SugarKiss
On some reflection I think this is probably an accurate summary of our debate There is definitely a BIGGER picture out there that I was attempting to convey. Your analogy with “forests and trees” shows just how easy it can be to get lost or “caught up” from both sides. There is always that balance that needs to be struck.
The movie “Django” is evidently speaking to the “Trees” leaving whole acres of Forest land unscathed, untouched and uncommented about. But remember this is coming from the Hollywood endorsed, violent and deranged psyche of Director Quentin Tarantino. This doesn’t necessarily make it a bad movie to see. But it does make it one that no African-American should sit and watch uncritically or unquestioningly allowing themselves to be distracted by “trees” whilst forgetting also that there is a “forest” out there and what it looks like!
Your questioning view of “achievement and success” is also captured in this statement:
“…I agree with you 100% that it is the white, already wealthy machine that is white privilege that has shaped this distraction and hammered home the notion to everyone watching and listening that “this” is what your life’s work, your effort to achieve should be. I look at the celebrities that black youth upholds so dearly and idolizes because they “made it.” The Jay Z’s and Beyonce’s of this country. Accepted by blacks because they are accepted (and paid) by whites. Irony, indeed. Is the “love and admiration” historical, ingrained, almost to knee-jerk status as many blacks’ life ambition? I believe so. And what benefits have we reaped? Cologne? Clothing? Branded alcohol? Free concerts? Or the feeling of pride when they are listed in Forbes magazine as the highest paid ___________? Ugh, but I digress…
Yes…and I agree its true this is a personal and spiritual path we are all on to decide if we wish to make a choice to continue along this path or find another more community embracing and inclusive one. This world is shifting, changing, and for some of us, “success or achievement” along the old lines you’ve painted is just not acceptable anymore or no longer Enough!
Incidentally…I wonder what the long response you resisted the urge to write would have looked like!
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@ Matari & SugarKiss
Somehow I think these exchanges we are having and sharing here go some way towards achieving that. ..!
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For Tarantino:
http://abagond.tumblr.com/post/40835822610/theblackdripsgold-yellowblowngreener
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“There are no accidents nor coincidences where whiteness is concerned, imo.”
And this often causes pareidolia.
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@Sugarkiss,–
I don’t know…I was kind of saddened by this because I do think we are all family, community. Even in the crazy, racist based and irrational ways “black” and “white” are used to describe a plethora of history and culture in America and even abroad.
Likewise it saddens me to say that some of what you say sounds like Mother Theresa’s lines. But yes I agree it would be nice to live in a heavenly sounding place like that on earth. When has the world ever been a family or a community? No, I don’t have family/community feelings towards all POC. IMO, it doesn’t help matters to overlook that people have been selfish, greedy, violent from the very beginning. All people. We may have to accept that this is a big part of what being human means at this point. We devour other life and sometimes, we’re devoured. The object is to not be devoured the longest.
I was just saying above that it would seem that Black men would get tired of being devoured and would try to learn as soon as possible how not to be devoured the longest.
We cannot escape the stigma that comes with American Black and that is why with all its flaws we should embrace each other, good and bad as human and help redefine the meaning of what success is,
I know that some people may think of my ethnicity and the stigma you mentioned, but I haven’t internalized what they think. So, I don’t need to escape from their thoughts about me.
You apparently think I equate achievement with having the money to buy superficial things as if you know this about me. I have never stated why my parents or I value achievement or how I live my life. But in the absence of actual knowledge about me, you fill in the gaps with assumptions (accusations) of what you think my values are. For all you know, I may equate achievement and success with having options,one of which may be to have a lifestyle where I sit by a creek every day and listen to birds sing as I keep and eye on fruit slices drying in the sun that I plan to sell at my vendor stand.
I think that before successful family and community can take place, and before one can even convince anyone to even want to share a family or community, there’s a need to learn how to communicate.
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Thanks Kwamla….it turns out that I did say most of what I wanted to say, really. LOL. So the “long version” is what I ended up writing anyway. I appreciate the warm response from you, legion and fortran and I do believe that planting seeds like this bury in the subconscious and will positively effect our relationships with others and teachers, learners, etc.
Like you, Kwamla, I do believe that change is coming and the ‘simple’ things will matter more than ever.
SK
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@ Jorbia
Afternoon,
“Likewise it saddens me to say that some of what you say sounds like Mother Theresa’s lines. But yes I agree it would be nice to live in a heavenly sounding place like that on earth.”
Mother Theresa’s lines sadden you? The great thing about them is that they aren’t ‘her’ lines so you don’t have to be ‘sad.’. I am going to assume this statement was regarding the last few sentences in my post where I address the need to abandon the tools of division, hate and confusion and work with each other. Why these goals would sadden you in one sentence but in the next your agree that it would be ‘nice’ seems a bit patronizing to me. A great thing about being human is that we are not monolithic our beliefs, ideals and values regarding what is important on earth. I have no desire to fight my way to the top of an ant hill, nor do I think all of life on Earth has been about this ‘manifest destiny’ type of idea. I do believe we are capable of being better than that.
“When has the world ever been a family or a community? No, I don’t have family/community feelings towards all POC.”
~ I won’t revisit your feelings about community amongst other blacks or “POC”, you have stated your feelings on that, as have I.
“IMO, it doesn’t help matters to overlook that people have been selfish, greedy, violent from the very beginning. All people. We may have to accept that this is a big part of what being human means at this point. We devour other life and sometimes, we’re devoured. The object is to not be devoured the longest.”
~Sure, the human race is violent and greedy and devisive and all that, but what I don’t believe is that the “point” of being human is to “devour” each other. To be upset that the black man on a global scale has no desire to devour (I’m still a bit confused on what exactly this means–other cultures’ resources? Money? Ideals? You never state who’s eating what) is a straw man argument. I do agree to a point that our goal is not be ‘devoured’ if you will, because ultimately we should be looking to co-exist while leaving the knife and fork at home.
“You apparently think I equate achievement with having the money to buy superficial things as if you know this about me. I have never stated why my parents or I value achievement or how I live my life. But in the absence of actual knowledge about me, you fill in the gaps with assumptions (accusations) of what you think my values are. ”
All of this is just….no. What I said:
Like history has shown us, over and over, these wide reaching attempts at power do not work in the long run. Your precious belongings can be confiscated, your savings frozen, your job terminated, or any number of things the govt or any other ruling class can justify necessary in the name of national security, freedom and all the rest of those empty monikers they repeat like bible verses.
~ If you referring to me using the word “you” to make my point about possessions and govt., then I will state here and now that the use of the word was a “you” in the societal sense, not “you” specifically. The rest of your comment dances around you accusing me of giving you a value system and then wrapping my opinions around it.
“For all you know, I may equate achievement and success with having options, one of which may be to have a lifestyle where I sit by a creek every day and listen to birds sing as I keep and eye on fruit slices drying in the sun that I plan to sell at my vendor stand.”
~That’s just it. I don’t know, and I haven’t pretended to. Your quasi-example of success sounds beautiful and while you may think you are making a point that is has nothing to do with monetary gain, once again, you make such bold statements, but don’t really say in plain English, what you DO value or find success to be, etc. So how much further can valuable conversation go when you don’t share or invest what you find important up for the same critique/ criticism/opinion you so willfully offer up to others on this blog?
“I think that before successful family and community can take place, and before one can even convince anyone to even want to share a family or community, there’s a need to learn how to communicate.”
~I am not here to convince anyone of anything. We are all here with thoughtful opinions and ideals. If you this is your way of telling me I didn’t come at your correctly, and so you feel no need to “share”, then just say so. You are certainly entitiled. And if this is a generalization on my part, then please explain exactly what you mean by this.
I have no qualms about sharing my beliefs and hope for a more unified and productive nation, community of people or hope for the future. And if those ideas, which have been communicated since the beginning of time are too abstract for you to put in your sharing bucket, then it is a sad day, indeed.
Peace,
SK
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Sugarkiss, neither anything that I say or that you say is brand new. All of what we’re saying is as old as dirt and nothing has changed. Many humans have always had Mother Theresa type ideals. Nothing new there. Many others have attempted to deal with life as it is. Nothing new there.
To be frank, it’s a waste of time for me to be concerned about what Black men, other than Black men in my family, do or don’t do. That’s their business. I just made a few comments what they do and don’t do and what they might try to do differently since they’re constantly talking here about what White and Arab men have done to them which they don’t seem to like or be able to defend against.. I won’t weigh in on that anymore for the simple reason that it’s all been said before and many times by those who’ve said it better. Nothing has changed.
What I do know is that poor, uneducated people don’t have the options that people with more money and education have. I’m not trying to stop anyone from being poor and uneducated if they want. It’s poor and uneducated people who seem to have a problem with some of us who don’t choose their way of life. I don’t see poor, uneducated people of any race in the USA opting to have the simple, idyllic, noble life that’s being talked about in this thread. People who have achieved more can choose to have a simple life with few material items or they can have a more lavish life. That’s up to them.
Lastly, it’s really a curious phenomenon that Black Americans in the U.S., more than any other groups I’ve encountered anywhere, seem to be suspicious of Black people who acquire money or education. Black Americans seem to equate Black people with money and education with being White, not trustworthy, traitorous or wrongheaded. As even you keep warning, money and investments can be lost or taken away. That is nothing new. Plenty of people have lost their homes, incomes, jobs, fortunes. And ?
Peace to you, too.
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I did not see the movie, but I did read the letter to slave owners by Willie Lynch a West Indies slave master, instructing Virginia slave owners how to keep their “human property” in line by pitting one against the other: light skin vs dark skin; males against females; etc., etc. An effective mind screwing using mistrust. Has anything really changed. It’s classic socio-economic brainwashing.
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Jorbia is making a lot of good points. Commenters should be wise and listen to what she is saying…
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“There are no accidents nor coincidences where whiteness is concerned, imo.”
******And this often causes pareidolia.******
*********
Don’t think so!
http://gawker.com/5976825/house-republicans-meet-at-a-former-slave-plantation-to-practice-talking-to-black-people
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I find it hypocritical that spike lee said he will not watch Django Unchained cause he found it disrespectful to his ancestors what about the countless so-called black films he has made and the fact that he has never featured in any of them, attractive dark skin black women with typical black features. Whilst the only attractive black women he has shown have either been light skinned or bi-racial re-enforcing a stereotype, is this not disrespectful to his ancestors.
By the way did any one noticed that in the Django film the leading black woman in the film, Django’s wife happened to be light skinned.
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-It was a fun movie ,with some comedy (like the way django blew away that white lady at the end of the movie…that was so hilarious,she flew out the damn screen!)lighten up.Seriously,it was by Quentin Terantino…what do you expect?
-But on an interesting note,I like how the film touched on all the sides of slavery and racism all at once in one film.So Django went around killing white people,it’s his job.Like it’s a soldier’s job (in some cases ) to go around killing people.
-Also,take note that a black person could never make this film and get away with it.
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-oh and ryon,as for the light skinned lead lady,lets look at it this way.my brother’s and sisters are the same color and lighter,I am darker.her hair was kinkier than mine and she clearly has negroid features.there are naturally light people in africa,for those who didn’t know
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Peanut,
Really, is there anything special about light skin that there should be a need to speak out about it when a Black person seems to be, in your individual opinion, erroneously categorized as being light?
I’ve seen Gabrielle Union categorized as being dark skinned on numerous occasions, while to me she is closer to medium brown skin, this is the first time I’ve bothered to make mention of it as it’s nothing Earth-shattering that she would / should be viewed as dark …or light or a shade of medium brown for that matter.
By showing anger that a particular person, who you don’t personally view as being ‘light skinned’ has been categorized as such, actually places a premium on the ‘light-skinned’ category…a category which apparently needs to be protected from ‘darker skinned interlopers’.
Now, who goes into the ‘white category’ is a whole other ball of wax, and is not at all the same as who, in individual opinion, is a’ light-skinned’, ‘brown-skinned’ or ‘dark-skinned’ Black in present day America….
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@ peanut:
You know, i was thinking the exact same thing, i was actually going to respond to afrodite about Kerry Washington, being light skinned.
I never saw her as being, light skinned. I always saw her as a light brown, sistah, now Alicia keys on the other hand, is light skinned.
This is just one of the tactics, they use to divide us, among ourselves, ( colorism ) unfortunately, it has worked.
This is something, we us black people, must confront as well, ( internal racism ) in addition to racism from whites.
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lol samuel L jackson looks like uncle ruckus. A,nyway kerri washington looks more of a cinnamon brown sugar skin tone. How does she look light skinned exactly. I think some people think she is light skinned just because they find her attractive and surely they can’t be attracted to a darker skinned woman.Its the same reason why vids on youtube of dark skinned black women with long hair who are clearly black,people will ask what are you mixed with because they cannot believe a black woman can have long healthy hair.Its like for you to be beautiful you have to have some other race in you as if black can’t be beautiful on its own it has to be diluted to be acceptable.
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I loves me some Samuel L. Jackson. The man puts 110% into in role he’s cast in.
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Or, better yet, for the grammarians: the man puts 110% into any role in to which he is cast LOL.
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@ finamma blu,
Its alright, i didn’t care about your grammar, just the point you got, across. ^_^
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Thank you, Sondis! I’m not surprised you’d get my meaning! Mwah!
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You’re, very welcome…. ^_^
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Peanut,
I’m not mis-categorizing a thing. My point is: So what if some folks subjectively categorize Kerry as be light skinned? Is light skinned so special a label that you feel a need to make sure such a heinous mis-categorization never takes place by speaking out against it whenever you see it? So what that Kerry Washington was labeled lightskinned?…Is she supposed to take her place among the gods now? Do you see the point I’m trying to make, Peanut?!
Even if you don’t, I know that there are plenty of others who do. I’m trying to hammer something home to you that is simply not sinking in….
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being light skinned isn’t special the grass isn’t greener on the other side,but people put light skinned women on a pedastal.I don’t understand it.dark skinned men are considered strong and masculine and beautiful yet a dark skinned woman is seen as ugly.Light skinned women are seen as beautiful and a light skinned man is sometimes seen as feminine and white.the only diffference is the gender. By kerry being labeled light skinned it shows people’s ignorance and their belief that light or anything close to eurpean features is the only beauty.i’m tired of whites putting labels on everyone.I don’t watch the news anymore because of that reason.When a black,latino,or asian commits a crime they say their race.If a white commits a crime they just say male,female ,or american.
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Whoever wrote the assessment of this movie is completely off.
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I recently saw the movie, and I must say that I enjoyed it. It was humorous and the story while i think it was a bit “too too” much, was a good one. The use of the word nigger didn’t bother me at all and doesn’t bother me one bit to begin with, Someone mentioned that the meaning of the word has changed, I beg to differ. Who has it changed for, and who has changed it. I often wonder why black folks by into the word being so offensive, especially since it was and is used among and by blacks without any derisive intent. Being from Virginia I didn’t really think the leading lady was “light skinned” but i do understand the problem in regards to the whole light skin dark skinned issue. The blood splatter was a bit much but that is Tarantino I suppose. The klan bit was not at all accurate, but it did provide a sort of comic relief. Sam Jackson did his thing and I think that there wasn’t enough dialogue between the blacks in the movie. The accents could have been done better, Jamie Fox being from Texas I think could have worked on his “southern accent” in my opinion.
Also @ kingswoodroad
“Jim Crow opponents fought tooth and nail to rid the American lexicon of this racial slur and yet modern youthful blacks seemed to embrace it as passionately as “homeboy” back in the day. It is the same with the incendiary subject of fatherless children within the black community. Slave men would have happily and voluntarily chopped of an appendage from their own bodies to keep their spouse and children together within their family nucleus. Somehow, a century and a half later, wires have been crossed and the situation has imploded on itself. Yes, whites, Hispanics, and any other races of people have clear examples of men abandoning their children, but no where near the epidemic that has been seen within the black community”
Youthful blacks aren’t the ones who started using the word. They learned it from past generations who were young at one point as well. I hate the way we in our modern times look so dismissively upon the “youth”. “WE DIDN’T START THE FIRE” !!!!! Not that i consider myself very “youthful”, i believe I take issue with such statements because they were made about my age group when i was a youth.. Blacks have been using the word “nigger” since we have been speaking American English, and they used it then much the same way it is used among and by blacks now. I am more offended by “n-word” than I am the actual word itself. I am new to this blog and if I offended anyone i do apologize, that was not my intent. As far as black men not being at home for the family crap that is so harped on in the media( not saying it doesn’t happen), but it too isn’t anything new. In my opinion it has gotten progressively worse because nothing was ever done to fix it anyway.
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It is terribly uncomfortable to watch. There is no denying that.
But, in defense of QT…nobody expects (or should expect) a Tarantino film to be the model of historical accuracy.
It was awesome to see a Black Princess in Brumhilde. Mock her name as they did, she was a real Princess; a Black woman who got the protection she deserved. That alone was worth the stylized violence.
Stephen was despicable; some might contend that he resembled a “candidate” from the last election cycle. Even if I’m wrong, I like laughing at my own jokes ;-).
I am thankful I did not see this at the cinema. I would likely have been ejected for my gasping.
The movie has some artistic merit. It is certainly worth the thought and discussion. How much more can really be expected here?
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@ Legion
I have not seen the film “12 years a Slave”, but the book uses the N-word 59 times. Tarantino in “Django Unchained” used it about 110 times.
In the book it is almost always a word whites use. The only time blacks use it is when it appears in the words of a song.
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[…] be found here, here, hereand here among others, “mandingo fighting” the fact that Freeman is a sidekick for most of the movie and that the film misses quite a bit about slavery. Instead, I will address what I perceive to be […]
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