The Republican bubble is the “parallel universe” that most Republicans in America live in, especially those on the hard right. It is a closed world of Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, right-wing opinion and white people. They sound like they are nuts because they are nuts.
They are not trolling: they are not saying crackpot stuff to gain attention, listeners or votes. They are serious.
It does not come from philosophical differences, from seeing the facts in a different light. It is worse than that.
It comes from cutting themselves off from knowable facts, from a lack of respect for truth, from accepting so many lies that they can no longer tell spin from fact.
Most Democrats live in a bubble too, but not an equal and opposite one. It has a greater respect for fact. It is less shut off from the outside world.
On the night of the 2012 election, Barack Obama prepared a victory speech and a concession speech while Mitt Romney prepared only a victory speech.
Since June most polls had been saying Romney would lose. The very same polls that had foreseen a Bush win in 2004. Yet when defeat came Romney was “shell-shocked”. He did not see it coming.
It was not just Romney. Others on the right also thought he would win enough electoral college votes (270 or more):
- 273: Ann Coulter, Fox News
- 279: Karl Rove
- 300: Newt Gingrich
- 311: Dean Chambers, Unskewed Polls
- 315: Michael Barone, National Review
- 321: George Will, Washington Post
- 325: Dick Morris, The New York Post, Fox News
Rush Limbaugh:
Everything except the polls points to a Romney landslide.
Romney only got 206.
Nate Silver, the polling expert at the New York Times, had been saying 206 was the most likely outcome. The right dismissed it – even though last time in 2008 he was off by only one state.
Silver dealt in numbers and mathematics, contrary in spirit to the Republican bubble, which:
- still doubts evolution and global warming despite the science and
- for years doubted Obama was born in America despite the state records of Hawaii.
Only 38% of Republicans in Ohio think that President Obama killed Bin Laden. Some think Romney did (15%). The rest (47%) are not sure.
Romney in the last days wasted precious time in states he had no hope of winning, like Pennsylvania. As if he had no polling experts.
At the second debate he made a huge mistake about what President Obama had said on Libya – apparently because he believed Fox News and the National Review.
Huge numbers came out to see him speak. But nearly everyone was – white. Because he avoided black and Latino neighbourhoods. Republican bubble.
In 2008 when Sarah Palin did terribly in her debate many on the right thought she did great:
- David Brooks
- Fred Barnes
- Monica Crowley
- Pat Buchanan
- Peggy Noonan
- Rush Limbaugh
- Michelle Malkin
- Rudy Giuliani
- National Review
Though some disagreed:
- Charles Krauthammer
- George Will
- Juan Williams
- Andrew Sullivan
- The Economist
Compare: In 2012 when Obama did poorly in the first debate almost no one on the left thought he did great.
Sources: CBS News, Slate, Julian Sanchez, Public Policy Polling (PDF)
See also:
President Obama did win the first debate He skewered Mitt Romney on taxes and health-care but the American electorate chose to focus his rather lackluster presentation
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How gallant of you to assume it was a choice…..
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DENIAL!!!!!
“White people tend to assume, …that the ways the world around them has been established, organized, and supplied are the most convenient and best ways for people in general. However, those ways are often instead the most convenient and best ways for white people, and not for others. And yet, white people usually fail to even see that”
http://stuffwhitepeopledo.blogspot.com/2009/12/implicitly-deny-that-other-people-are.html
White people are socialized to HATE and DENIGRATE anything that is not about them, for them or theirs. i.e. (other cultures, races, land, resources).
I believe White people BELIEVE IRAN is squatting on THEIR oil. Thus, at some point in time, The Iranian people MUST overthrow THEIR government, become docile to White males and accept poverty. Meanwhile, allow White Hegemony to DRAIN their country of its Liquid Gold.
This again points to: What’s theirs is Ours. And if they do not give us what is ours, We are going to TAKE IT.
Libya
Iraq
Ivory Coast
are just a few modern day occurances of White people invading countries under LIES and Steal their Treasure.
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We should have a post about Nate Silver.
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Abagond:
I got mad love for you bro, but, you’ve lost your damn’ mind. Republicans are not the enemy of our race, Democrats are. Abagond, i didn’t know you were this far-left blackman? I expected better from you Gond. You know the realities of what we’re dealing with, politically speaking. If you and other blacks wanna be naive, that’s your choice. But, don’t hate on other blacks because we see the world differently, just saying.
Ty
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“Tyrone
Abagond:
I got mad love for you bro, but, you’ve lost your damn’ mind. Republicans are not the enemy of our race”
Linda says,
Tyrone, if the Republicans care so much about black people, then why are they only talking about courting the Hispanic vote and enlarging the Republic party with Hispanic people?
The Republican talking heads are all discussing reconstructing the party and their focus is going after the next largest voting block — the Hispanics because they’ve already written off black people as a lost cause or
rather, they are not Enthusiastic about having black people in the party
The Republicans aren’t running after or sweating black people
so therefore, why should any black person eligible to vote want to join a party that says publically that Obama supporters (i.e. black people) are all lazy and on welfare….all these stereotype code phrases are aimed straight at the 91% black people who voted for Obama.
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Awesome article yet again abagond! I’ve learned a lot from you over the years.
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@ linda
“Tyrone, if the Republicans care so much about black people, then why are they only talking about courting the Hispanic vote and enlarging the Republic party with Hispanic people? ”
If Democrats care so much about black people then why are they pushing more immigration for hispanics? Immigrants aren’t taking white people jobs. They’re mostly taking black people jobs.
Two-thirds of jobs go to immigrants during Obama four years.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/oct/31/two-thirds-of-jobs-go-to-immigrants/?page=all
At the same time black unemployment rises to 14.3% with black teen unemployment over 40% !!!
http://newsone.com/2072628/black-unemployment-october-jobs-report-2012-presidential-election/
Maybe Romney outsourcd some white people jobs to CHina but at least he didn’t bring in hiapsnics to take black people jobs. Yall to quick to give Obama and Democrats a pass.
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“If Democrats care so much about black people then why are they pushing more immigration for hispanics? Immigrants aren’t taking white people jobs. They’re mostly taking black people jobs.”
Sorry to burst your bubble, but Black unemployment will always be in the double-digits so long as Black people continue to focus on getting jobs instead of making them. It was so before hispanics, it will be so after hispanics. Likewise, electing one party or the other has never moved us forward. It is only when we put our destiny in our own hands that things change, and if you want higher employment the spirit of Black entrepreneurship must be reborn.
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“Sorry to burst your bubble. . .”
No pun in intended.
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“Beetlejuice
If Democrats care so much about black people then why are they pushing more immigration for hispanics? Yall to quick to give Obama and Democrats a pass.”
Linda says,
and being an immigrant myself, you think I have a problem with that! 🙂
I know white Americans are scared…so are you saying that black Americans should be scared also and join the white Americans in the Republican party so that both black and white Americans can “take back the country”
you shouldn’t worry too much, for the past 4 years Obama’s been on it:
under Obama, deportation of illegal immigrants and legal immigrants with so called “criminal backgrounds” have Increased/Doubled beyond what the Bush administration has EVER done — so Obama has been cleaning house and a lot of innocent people have been caught up in the mess.
http://www.ibtimes.com/under-obama-deportations-near-record-number-2011-781511
and naturalized citizens (the one’s who vote), who were immigrants just a few years before, are affected by the Obama administrations actions, because these actions can/have impacted family members who haven’t made the transition.
Obama administration has been no friend to us “foreigners”
Hispanics know this as well but were willing to overlook Obama’s treachery because the Republicans are, in the words of Bill Maher, “batsh’t crazy” — remarks like immigrants should self deport, 47% of population are takers, if you’re poor – blame yourself (Herman Cain) does not bring a warm and fuzzy feeling of welcome.
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“Beetlejuice
Immigrants aren’t taking white people jobs. They’re mostly taking black people jobs. Maybe Romney outsourcd some white people jobs to CHina but at least he didn’t bring in hiapsnics to take black people jobs.”
Linda says,
and this statement is total BS by the way; both white and black Americans have lost their jobs caused by the recession and Hispanics and other immigrants ARE NOT the reason they can’t find decent jobs…(sh’t jobs are still available for anyone who wants them) —
you need to look at big business and ask about those factory and service / information jobs they’ve been offshoring for the last 15 years — it’s fashionable right now for everything to be “made in China”
Every immigrant group from Jews to Haitians has gone through the same revolving door of doing ANY job thats available until they/their children can do better and move up the ladder —that’s the goal and the whole point of coming to America.
By the way, which so called “black jobs” are you talking about …I wasn’t aware jobs were broken down by colour..I see black people working in all kinds of jobs and all kinds of positions.
and your so-called “white” dominiated jobs are and have always been fair game and are being “taken” by immigrants or their children, just like
the new chairman of the RNC, Reince Priebus, his parents are immigrants. Funny how this powerful position of authority was previously held by Michael Steele (black American) — so is this position one of the “black jobs” you were talking about?!
the Republicans are so transparent –first Michael Steele, then Reince — they’ve trotted all their “tokens” in order to look like they’re inclusive and welcoming. Hispanics saw through their xenophobia and went with the lesser of two evils.
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Do Andrew Sullivan and Juan Williams really count as people on the Right?
Williams may work for Fox, but he’s a moderate or liberal. Sullivan calls himself conservative, but he is a conservative in British terms, which is basically a centrist in the US.
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[…] "They sound like they are nuts because they are nuts….They are not trolling: they are not saying crackpot stuff to gain attention, listeners or votes. They are serious." – MORE – […]
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Honestly, my conscious is clear. I didn’t vote at all because I believe Democrats and Republicans are screwing us; the liberals just use lube…
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linda
“under Obama, deportation of illegal immigrants and legal immigrants with so called “criminal backgrounds” have Increased/Doubled beyond what the Bush administration has EVER done”
Ok. I checked and was wrong on that. I can admit being wrong.
“and this statement is total BS by the way; both white and black Americans have lost their jobs caused by the recession and Hispanics and other immigrants ARE NOT the reason they can’t find decent jobs…(sh’t jobs are still available for anyone who wants them) –”
I already posted a link showing 2/3 of jobs go to immigrants. I’m tired of hearing “jobs americans won’t do”. Everytime ICE raids a meatpacking plant AMERICANS line up to apply for those jobs. Those weren’t “sh’t jobs” until immigrants drove down wages.
“By the way, which so called “black jobs” are you talking about …I wasn’t aware jobs were broken down by colour..I see black people working in all kinds of jobs and all kinds of positions.”
We both know there are lots of black people unemployed with immigrants working jobs that used to be done by black people. Since you think IT is full of black people here ya go.
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Some of the points of this post are right on. Some could be open for debate. The “republicans” you mentioned about thier predictions are a little one sided and doesn’t represent all republicans any more that Chris Mathews represents all democrats.
My problem with Obama was that he didn’t do much different that Bush as a puppet. He extended the tax cuts… took campaign donations from big oil. The war is still there with less press coverage. Now it seems like he can bomb who he wants with drone strikes without the approval from congress because the “War on Terror” is still alive and kicking…… 2014 were supposed to spike the football…….. will we? Extended Patriot act. Signed even more contraversial similar laws. Bush had the Economic Recovery. Obama had the Economic Stimulous. … Both started office under qualified with too many advisers. I could go on but it’s depressing.
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Tuesday night was great already but what did it for me was Romney’s suprise at his lost. Seemed obvious enough to me that he wasn’t winning the election. I knew he was pipe dreaming when his campaign said they were competitive in Pennsylvania, lol. Brings a smile to my face thinking about team Romney’s disbelief in the results.
Hey, no one runs for the presidency to lose but his overconfidence was on real… He thought he would win for sure, but not only did he lose but it was a landslide. Can’t stop LOL’ing at this clowns!!!
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Sorry for the typos!
BTW, Abagond this comment went though but do you know why my recents comments disappear and end up in moderation? Is it because I keep commenting from different computers and IP addresses
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@Beetlejuice
Your ethnocentric scapegoatism disgusts me. If Black people are reliant on large, white owned corporations, the sort of companies that could hire Cohen & Grisby, then I’m afraid we’ve already failed. Most people are employed by small local businesses, not the enormous multinational corporations that exploit immigrants, with the sole exception of Black People.
So to quote myself: “if you want higher employment the spirit of Black entrepreneurship must be reborn.”
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Excess labor creates higher unemployment and lower wages. That’s supply and demand. If it disgusts you then thats your problem.
“Entrepreneurship” sounds like something someone says when they don’t have a job. What kind of “business” do you own?
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“Excess labor creates higher unemployment and lower wages. That’s supply and demand. If it disgusts you then thats your problem.”
Laborers are also consumers who raises demand for employees in another sector. Employment is not a zero-sum game. If it was, unemployment would have skyrocketed after the world population boom of 19th and 20th century. Instead, people are on average wealthier and healthier than ever in human history.
http://ailaleadershipblog.org/2012/02/08/immigration-and-jobs-the-dangerous-zero-sum-game-fallacy/
” “Entrepreneurship” sounds like something someone says when they don’t have a job. What kind of “business” do you own?”
This, ladies and gents, is a fine example of an ad hominem, so I wont even validate your question with an answer. Let’s stay on topic: Are people mostly employed by small businesses or large ones? On that note, what is the proportion of Black employers to Black employees?
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A mirror-image of the 2004 Democrat bubble, wouldn’t you say?
Irrational political exuberance in a campaign is hardly confined to only one party.
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Aba
Right vs. Left is an illusion. I don’t vote. EVER. It is an illusion designed to confuse us. White supremacy is the driving force behind the world’s problems…including the problems of white people themselves. Immigration, social security, taxes, etc are moot points. While we argue over abortion, unemployment, etc…the super rich are planning our demise.
Rich whites employ illegal immigrants to work for them for 2 dollars a day yet preach about sending “those illegals” back to wherever they came from. And let’s not forget the 13 amendment that enslaves our people. I am not fooled by the Obama Deception, Clinton Deception or any other deceptions out there. I have my eye firmly planted on those that make the rules and enforce them under the slithery guise of democracy.
The biggest issue we have on this plantation is the disorganization of black people. We need to stop worrying about things that have no value and organize and prepare.
2013 will be shocking for us all.
Not because Obama is in office. But because the plan is being carried out as we speak.
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“Beetlejuice
We both know there are lots of black people unemployed with immigrants working jobs that used to be done by black people”
Linda says,
Which jobs? You haven’t been specific. You and I aren’t on the same page because I don’t know what you consider traditional “black jobs”
Since I‘ve been in this country, where I live, Caribbeans and Hispanics dominate the maid and housekeeping jobs, nursing aides and other low paying jobs…are you trying to say that these are “black jobs” that black Americans have lost or should be fighting to take back from immigrants?
I thought the whole point of Civil Rights was so that black Americans can enter industries that previously shut them out; and also to have the ability to go up the corporate ladder (which black Americans have done quite successfully), so what are you advocating then? I don’t get your point.
I see many black Americans with jobs in all industries. Your article did not go into specifics either – 2/3’s in what industry? Are you only speaking about low-end, blue collar jobs or white-collar jobs?
What jobs do you consider to be “black jobs”? please elaborate
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“Beetlejuice
I already posted a link showing 2/3 of jobs go to immigrants. I’m tired of hearing “jobs americans won’t do”. Everytime ICE raids a meatpacking plant AMERICANS line up to apply for those jobs. Those weren’t “sh’t jobs” until immigrants drove down wages.”
Linda says,
I don’t disagree with you that American companies prefer to pay basement wages for low-end jobs; and for sure, immigrants are all too happy to take these jobs.
but these jobs come with consequences…long hours, no overtime pay, no raises, unsafe conditions (except when OSHA is visiting), fees deducted from their paycheck to reimburse the employer for “assisting” them to come to America and get set up
But, it’s not only about the money and low wages that drives these employers….
These American employers like immigrants better because they are easy to exploit – unlike American workers who have rights as citizens and know their Civil Rights.
These employers know that they cannot hire Americans and exploit them… they Know they can take advantage of illegal immigrants and no one is there to protect them – even legal immigrants won’t rock the boat, they are more reluctant to bring lawsuits against the company or complain about harassment or discrimination.
This happens with decent paying jobs too – like with foreign nurses brought over when nursing shortage was severe—they got H1B visas but had to deal with exploitation as well—they were paid low salaries and had to sign long-term contracts that charged them a fee (2x higher than their salary) if they tried to break the contract – modern day indentured servants.
Immigrants know they will receive the short-end of the stick but are willing to do it because the long-term goal is worth the current pain. So, yes, unfortunately, that symbiotic, dysfunctional relationship exists.
Like I said, I think the American public are crying in the wrong direction – immigrants aren’t the problem, it’s the American employers.
These American companies are doing what they want because they CAN – and no one is stopping them – that’s why the Republican slogan was “the government should get out of business” – well, the government has since the 80’s when most industries were decentralized and they truly closed their eyes prior to 2008.
I think that if the Government really wanted to bring jobs back to America or convince the American companies to hire more and pay Americans more, then there needs to be an incentive — Money talks
the government should be punishing those companies that don’t want to play ball and make financial/tax incentives to Start-up companies that are willing to hire and retain an American workforce at real living wages.
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D
“Laborers are also consumers who raises demand for employees in another sector. Employment is not a zero-sum game. ”
Employment doesn’t grow the economy. If I pay you to stand on your head your employed but does it grow the economy? NO! INCREASED PRODUCTIVITY GORWS THE ECONOMY! If someone creates $16000 worth of productivity but consumes $16000 worth of productivity in food, housing, utilities, healthcare, gas, etc. That might grow the economy but how much does it help others? ZERO! All he did was help himself while lowering wages and raising the cost of food, housing, utilities, healthcare and gas for everyone else. To help the economy you have to produce MORE than you consume.
“This, ladies and gents, is a fine example of an ad hominem, so I wont even validate your question with an answer. ”
This, ladies and gents, is a fine example of a HYPOCRITE. Talk smack about “entrepreneurship” and don’t have a business your own dam self.
linda “Which jobs? You haven’t been specific. You and I aren’t on the same page because I don’t know what you consider traditional “black jobs””
Stop belyacchig cuz I said “black jobs”. The fact is immigrants take jobs that would have been done by black people. It dont matter what the job is if an immigrant takes a job that would have been adone by a black person then it was a BLACK JOB!!! Your defensive cuz your an immigrant. this aint about you.
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Another thing I found out, thanks mostly to fellow blogger Ankhesen Mie, republicans rely mostly on faith, blind faith, in their agendas. If Romney and the conservative pundits believe that Romney was going to be the next President despite all the data that points otherwise, one can only assume that they were relying on faith instead of facts. They hoped they would win even though their chances were low. That explains why Romney prepared only an acceptance speech.
Also, most republicans, conservatives and right-wingers live in a bubble that’s trapped in the white man’s “good ole’ days”, the days of “Leave It To Beaver” and “Father Knows Best.”
They want those times to come back. They want to be the “man of the house” once again. They want women in their place, in the kitchen cooking and having kids. And they want POC to live far away from them out of sight and earshot.
I agree that Democrats and liberals are the lesser evils, but they are still a party with faults. They usually talk a good progressive game, but most could generally care less. It’s not that they are weak or passive. It’s because in the long run, the millionaires and billionaires are the ones they try to get on their side.
In the end no party serves the best interests of black and brown people, especially if they are poor.
That’s how I see it, anyway.
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“Employment doesn’t grow the economy. If I pay you to stand on your head your employed but does it grow the economy?”
Your analogy is broken. Yes, the economy has grown. If you pay me to stand on my head, and then other people paid you to see me stand on my head, then we have grown the economy even more. It’s what we call entertainment. And what do we do with that money? We purchase goods and services.
“NO! INCREASED PRODUCTIVITY GORWS THE ECONOMY! If someone creates $16000 worth of productivity but consumes $16000 worth of productivity in food, housing, utilities, healthcare, gas, etc. That might grow the economy but how much does it help others?”
Lets just take the food. Say this immigrant, who is making less then half the minimum wage by the number your giving me, buys an apple. When he or she buys an apple, s/he is paying the grocery story or market she purchased the apple from and all its employees, the company responsible for shipping that apple and all its employees, the farm on which that apple was grown and all it’s employees, the company responsible for the production of the pesticides and all its employees, the company that builds the farm equipment and all its employees, the company that produces the fertilizers and its employees, and of course the energy companies that allow all of the employees to get to work in the morning. All of that from the consumption of one measly apple. Productivity doesn’t grow economies, people do. We are doing it as we type, employing hundreds of people who work for our internet providers, who in turn employ millions of others who employ millions of others in an exponentially complex system of relationships between people.
“This, ladies and gents, is a fine example of a HYPOCRITE. Talk smack about “entrepreneurship” and don’t have a business your own dam self.”
I’m a 21 year old student and a son of people who aren’t millionaires, not exactly at a point in my life when I can start a business even if I wanted too. And now, my dear LIV, you will strut away from your keyboard as if you’ve proven something when all you’ve proven is how underdeveloped your communication and rational arguing skills are. Whether I own a business or not is irrelevant, the theoretical impact of small business on local communities is.
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“To help the economy you have to produce MORE than you consume.”
Then you should be gung-ho about illegal immigrants seeing as they do the same work for less pay, and thus consume less than other Americans. And because wages go down, according to your logic, Americans would also wind up producing more than they consume thus growing the economy.
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Of course, your logic is broken because the economy isn’t the material, it’s what we want, what we need, and who can supply it. It’s about markets, and trade, and what we value whether it’s books or shoes, entertainment or psychological help. We pay the people who provide us with those things who in turn seek to purchase what it is they value from others.
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“Stop belyacchig cuz I said “black jobs”. The fact is immigrants take jobs that would have been done by black people. It dont matter what the job is if an immigrant takes a job that would have been adone by a black person then it was a BLACK JOB!!! Your defensive cuz your an immigrant. this aint about you.”
That….didn’t make any sense…. Wouldn’t it be just as easy to say that immigrants get jobs that would have gone to citizens? There are black immigrants as I’m sure you’re aware(but that’s besides the point). How can one know what color of person would’ve gotten the job? So if I get a job instead of a white person, was that a white job? As I said, that doesn’t make sense.
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“Beetlejuice
Stop belyacchig cuz I said “black jobs”. The fact is immigrants take jobs that would have been done by black people. It dont matter what the job is if an immigrant takes a job that would have been adone by a black person then it was a BLACK JOB!!! Your defensive cuz your an immigrant. this aint about you”
Linda says,
Great answer! Champion of black empowerment in America.
Why don’t you answer the question and stop dancing around it — is it because you don’t want to show your a’s for the ignorant cry-baby that you’re being —“Boo, Hoo immigrants are taking our jobs”–
Why are you not crying about these same jobs going to white or Asian people? White people get jobs that could have gone to black people too, sooo where’s the argument…oh, I guess you don’t really have one.
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I don’t know why he doesn’t come right out and say it:
“They tuk urr jurbs!”
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D
You think paying someone to stand on their head is productivity? Your idea of productivity is people passing money back and forth. How bout I give you 20 then you give me 20 back. Have we grown the economy? NO! Productivity is the ONLY way to grow the economy.
“Lets just take the food. Say this immigrant, who is making less then half the minimum wage by the number your giving me, buys an apple.”
Federal minimum wage is less than 8 an hour. 40 hrs a week times 50 weeks is 2000 hours. 8 an hour times 2000 hours is 16000 dollars. I thought you said you were a student? smh.
The apple example is fine as far as it goes but you left out ENTITLEMENTS. If an immigrant does 50 cents worth of work and gets 50 cents from EBT he can buy an apple that costs a dollar. The problem is that half the money he bought that apple with CAME FROM ME! That means he did NOT contribute the economy. Immigrants use entitlements twice as much as Americans. As a group they’re NOT contributing to the economy. Theyre sponging off others.
“I’m a 21 year old student and a son of people who aren’t millionaires, not exactly at a point in my life when I can start a business even if I wanted too.”
Maybe you should wait til you know what your talking about before preaching to others CUZ I DO HAVE A BUSINESS!
GEn and linda ask the same questin “So if I get a job instead of a white person, was that a white job? As I said, that doesn’t make sense.”
Some whites lose their jobs to immigrants too. Even immigrants lose jobs to other immigrants. I got two complaints against immigrants i dont have agaist other americans. First immigrants as a whole take more from the economy than they give cuz of entitlements. Second there are 7 BILLION ppl in the world. 6.5 billion of them make less than we do. 90% of them would immigrate if they could. They wouldnt stop until our wages were as low as everwhere else.
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“Beetlejuice
First immigrants as a whole take more from the economy than they give cuz of entitlements.
The apple example is fine as far as it goes but you left out ENTITLEMENTS. If an immigrant does 50 cents worth of work and gets 50 cents from EBT he can buy an apple that costs a dollar. The problem is that half the money he bought that apple with CAME FROM ME!”
Linda says,
I am glad you finally just came out with it and said you just don’t like immigrants, Period. You didn’t even need to throw in any real/bogus reasons for it — you just don’t like immigrants because you feel like America is being invaded…that’s cool…don’t be afraid to say it loud and be proud!
But considering this country was invaded by foreigners and built by immigrants and slave labour provided by forced immigrants, we current immigrants are just upholding the tradition.
I won’t even comment on the “entitlement” statement because you sound like a typical white American with that one – you know, the type who thinks only they (white people) pay taxes because black people and immigrants don’t work and pay taxes too – even if we immigrants are taking your jobs, federal/state government makes sure to take theirs – no slackers allowed when it comes to payroll taxes, no sir.
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“You think paying someone to stand on their head is productivity? Your idea of productivity is people passing money back and forth. How bout I give you 20 then you give me 20 back. Have we grown the economy? NO! Productivity is the ONLY way to grow the economy.”
^What you’ve just mentioned wouldn’t grow the economy because both of us end up with the same money we started with. That being said exchanging money for goods or services was all you’ve ever done your entire life, that’s why it’s called trade. You would pay for the “service” of having me stand on my head, then I’d use that money for something else. Of course, you’re using headstands to make the argument sound absurd (yet another logical fallacy), instead of performing poetry on stage, but the principle is the same. It’s just smaller in scale and sillier.
“Federal minimum wage is less than 8 an hour. 40 hrs a week times 50 weeks is 2000 hours. 8 an hour times 2000 hours is 16000 dollars. I thought you said you were a student? smh.”
I was thinking of the average income, $45,000 or so. Epic fails on my part.
“he apple example is fine as far as it goes but you left out ENTITLEMENTS. If an immigrant does 50 cents worth of work and gets 50 cents from EBT he can buy an apple that costs a dollar. The problem is that half the money he bought that apple with CAME FROM ME! That means he did NOT contribute the economy. Immigrants use entitlements twice as much as Americans. As a group they’re NOT contributing to the economy. Theyre sponging off others.”
No, you personally contributed such a small amount to the purchase of that apple, it would hurt too much to calculate (Much, Much, Much less than a penny, that’s for sure) The only thing entitlements change is what’s being purchased and where. Instead of the money staying with you to purchase what you want, they’re purchasing what they want. From your stand point it’s a loss, cause you could have used that money to buy a new TV. From their stand point, they have more purchasing power than their paycheck would allow. However, for the economy money is money, no matter what path it takes. Whether it’s coming from you directly or indirectly, that money is going to get people hired and payed. Finally, your hypothetical immigrant is contributing more than 16K to the economy, seeing as one’s paycheck is almost always less than the value of their labor, especially immigrants. The wealth they create but never see goes to their employers, but you knew that.
Alternatively, you could look at entitlements as an indirect subsidy. Instead of subsidizing companies with the best lobby in Washington, the market (the people) decides where the subsidies go so the best companies are rewarded.
“Maybe you should wait til you know what your talking about before preaching to others CUZ I DO HAVE A BUSINESS!”
Which is great, really great, but still irrelevant to the debate.
“Second there are 7 BILLION ppl in the world. 6.5 billion of them make less than we do. 90% of them would immigrate if they could. They wouldnt stop until our wages were as low as everwhere else.”
This reasoning was flawed before, and it’s flawed now. America’s own population has skyrocketed since the 1900s. Did wages go down? No, just the opposite because people create wealth.
Second, it’s 2012 darling, you’re not an American citizen anymore, you’re a World citizen, and those 90% don’t have to immigrate to affect the going-ons of your wallet. Those artificial borders are only going to become more transparent as the years go on, (assuming we won’t go extinct first).
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linda “I am glad you finally just came out with it and said you just don’t like immigrants, Period.”
That’s not even a straw man, it’s just a lie. That’s sad.
D “What you’ve just mentioned wouldn’t grow the economy because both of us end up with the same money we started with.”
You think passing the same $20 back and forth grows the economy? If we pass that $20 back and forth faster does the economy grow faster too?
“That being said exchanging money for goods or services was all you’ve ever done your entire life, that’s why it’s called trade.”
if your ex pays someone to slash your tires hes providing a service. Does that grow the economy?
“No, you personally contributed such a small amount to the purchase of that apple, (Much, Much, Much less than a penny, that’s for sure)”
I’m personally contributing a tiny amount to his apple as well as everything else he buys. And everything else the millions of other people with entitlements buy. And so is everyone else who pays taxes. It adds up. A billion here and a billion there and pretty soon your talking about real money.
“Instead of the money staying with you to purchase what you want, they’re purchasing what they want. From your stand point it’s a loss, cause you could have used that money to buy a new TV. From their stand point, they have more purchasing power than their paycheck would allow. However, for the economy money is money, no matter what path it takes.”
If someone kick you in the head and take your rent money. From your standpoint its a loss. However, for the economy money is money, no matter what path it takes.
“America’s own population has skyrocketed since the 1900s. Did wages go down? No, just the opposite because people create wealth.”
Wages went up because PRODUCTIVITY grew faster than the population. If you think more people equals more wealth then why isn’t india rich?
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Ummm, could you please post some more Sarah Palin picture? Please?
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Beetlejuice,
Total factor productivity which is also known as innovation accounts for the greatest factor in labor productivity. Innovation comes in many forms – one of which is entertainment, something D. made clear to you. If people are able to innovate (aka entertain) they have to have the proper social conditions to do so. Those social conditions cannot arise when the innovators are stuck in a permanent underclass. When they were stuck in poverty from birth because the government cut public services.
Then the government cuts taxes on the richest. But nothing trickles down from the 1% to the rest because the 1% are hoarding the money saved by the tax cuts. In short you have an apt description of how our system works right now.
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Ummm, could you please post some more Sarah Palin picture? Please?
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQjvidDrG29q5pQ7LVQMCyxmWQkNYBhN3GMIrkL8owyeBH4Pf_UAA
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“You think passing the same $20 back and forth grows the economy? If we pass that $20 back and forth faster does the economy grow faster too?”
I just told you that it doesn’t. If we both start with $100, and end with 100$, our purchasing power hasn’t changed. If you give me a $20 to dance, I can know purchase $120 worth of goods and services.
“If your ex pays someone to slash your tires hes providing a service. Does that grow the economy?”
In this case, no, because my ability to purchase and supply goods and services has been reduced. If my ex payed someone to inflate my tires, then yes it would.
Likewise, paying someone to commit murder wouldn’t grow the economy because that’s one less consumer and producer in the world.
“If someone kick you in the head and take your rent money. From your standpoint its a loss. However, for the economy money is money, no matter what path it takes.”
Immigrants aren’t thieves seeing as they do supply labor, in fact you called them excess labor. So, once again, your analogy was dishonestly constructed to factor morality into a discussion in which it has no place (another logical fallacy). How about children? Children are the biggest consumers in the country, stealing money from their parents using tears and cuteness. Even so, there are massive companies who employ millions of people, like Disney and Hasbro, dedicated to catering to the demands of people who produce nothing. Children consumerism is a topic worthy of discussion all its own, but this isn’t the place or time.
” Wages went up because PRODUCTIVITY grew faster than the population. If you think more people equals more wealth then why isn’t india rich?”
India has one of the fastest growing economies in the world as every new person provides a new source of labor and another person willing to buy. Japan, whose population is shrinking, has a negative economic growth rate in spite of all it’s superior technology and high standard of living.
If you’re making 100 pizzas a week, but can only sell 80 pizzas, you’re not going to make more money by making 200 pizzas. You can create as many pizzas as you like as efficiently as you can, but if no one’s buying more than 80 pizzas, all you’ve done is bury yourself in debt. You need people to buy your pizzas to make a profit and employ other people.
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aren’t you guys sort of rubbing it in now complaining about the preparation defeat speech? The guy lost. I mean have some grace and sportsmanship even the Flyers and Rangers shake hands after the playoffs and they hate each other. It’s sort of like after a boxer knocks another one out then after he wakes up telling him “Brush your teeth next time your breath skinks” No they hug each other and make sure they are alright. Even Obama was impressed with some of Romney’s ideas and since he had a fair portion of the popular vote has promised to meet with him. sh** he may even offer him a job.
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@Herneith
WYF is wrong with you?
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The only reason Obama is in office is because we don’t want Mitt Romney anywhere near a national public office position, so Obama offering him a job would be a slap in the face.
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@satanforce:
You asked and I delivered!
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That’s me Satan, Huh?, I signed in with my email instead of my Word Press account. Get thee hence Satan!
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D.
Dancing, tires, a kick in the head. These examples all transfer money. Its the goods or servive you get in return that determines productivity. I’d enjoy your dance but when its over all
I have is a memory. You spending an extra 20 on goods or services doesnt increase productivity either. It only transfers my wealth to you. I would have spent it on a music CD. You spent on a music CD instead. Wealth was transfered but nothing was produced.
“your analogy was dishonestly constructed to factor morality into a discussion in which it has no place”
Would you be happy if i used charity as an example? Stealing, charity, gambling, entertainment are the same as far as the economy is concerned. They transfer wealth without producing anything in exchange. The diffrence is some are voluntary and some arent but none of them produce anything. They only transfer wealth.
“India has one of the fastest growing economies in the world as every new person provides a new source of labor and another person willing to buy.”
India’s economic growth has nothnig to do with the size of its population. Their economy is growing faster because they are adopting modern technology to become more productive. They are “catching up” to the developing world. Once they catch up their economy will slow down.
“Japan, whose population is shrinking, has a negative economic growth rate in spite of all it’s superior technology and high standard of living.”
An indian farmer can increase productivity by switching from a plow to a tractor. But how can a japanese farmer who is already using a tractor increase his productivity? Its hard to be more productive when you are already the most productive country in the world. Thats why developed countries have slower growth rates.
Japans had negative growth because of the global economic crisis. Let’s say the crisis reduced the growth rate of every country by 3%. That means Japan’s growth rate goes from +2% to -1% and India’s growth rate goes from 12% to 9%. Everyone’s economy slowd down but india still has postive growth because the Indian farmer is still switching from a plow to a tractor. What can the Japanese farmer do to become more productive? Nothing.
“You need people to buy your pizzas to make a profit and employ other people.”
If there are 5 times as many people then you have 5 times as many potential customers. But those extra people have to do something too. Some of them are going to open their own pizza place. Even if there are 5 times as many people to buy pizzas there are also 5 times as many people making pizzas. How does that help you? It doesnt
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“Dancing, tires, a kick in the head. These examples all transfer money. Its the goods or servive you get in return that determines productivity. I’d enjoy your dance but when its over all I have is a memory.
You spending an extra 20 on goods or services doesnt increase productivity either. It only transfers my wealth to you. I would have spent it on a music CD. You spent on a music CD instead. Wealth was transfered but nothing was produced.”
The memory is what you paid for. If you’ve ever watched TV, listened to the radio, went to the theater, went to a concert, or read a book, all you’ve done is purchase an experience. Are authors and poets and singers producing nothing? Of course not, we Demand these memories and experiences, they Supply them, we compensate them with payment, they produce more entertainment.
The CD I just bought was produced. My purchasing of that CD incentivizes said company and the entertainer to produce more CDs for myself and anyone else in the fanbase. It incentivizes the expansion of the genre and the stardom of another entertainer. It also incentivizes me to dance more, and maybe strive for stardom myself. Perhaps then I could get a contract to sell DVDs of my dancing. On and on it goes.
“Would you be happy if i used charity as an example? Stealing, charity, gambling, entertainment are the same as far as the economy is concerned. They transfer wealth without producing anything in exchange. The diffrence is some are voluntary and some arent but none of them produce anything. They only transfer wealth.”
Wrong. Entertainment employs thousands, and thousands more are willing to pay for it. Entertainment and services are products, even if they aren’t tangible. They’re valuable because we value them. We value poetry, and art, radio broadcasts, and medical services. If we didn’t none of these thing would exist because the people offering them would bury themselves in the debt of production cost and be unable to produce more. No movies, no books, no TV, no sports, etc.
Charity incentivizes the production of food, water, and clothing, those goods just go to the recipient instead of you. Gambling is another form of entertainment which I already explained. Stealing doesn’t effect the economy in theory, but it destabilizes societies, breeds distrust, and drives people away from markets because people value not being robbed. If your neighborhood is plagued by robberies, you’ll move and all of the local businesses will suffer because you’re no longer a patron.
Compare gold, which is all but useless. It’s pretty and rare and we want it, not as a tarnish resistant conductor, but for jewelry to hang on our necks, ears, and arms. Like entertainment, it was value because we want it, and for no other reason.
“If there are 5 times as many people then you have 5 times as many potential customers. But those extra people have to do something too. Some of them are going to open their own pizza place. Even if there are 5 times as many people to buy pizzas there are also 5 times as many people making pizzas. How does that help you? It doesnt.”
When has competition destroyed economies? Oh, I remember: Never! Ford used to be the only company that used the assembly line. When other car companies did the same, did Ford slink off to a corner to cry about it? No, they jumped into the trenches and competed with their rivals to make better cheaper cars. If your business turns out to be the best, you expand your customer base to include those who did business with your competitors. It also incentives you to invest in more efficient pizza making, higher quality pizza, and better service. Thus you attract more customers granting you a larger customer base than your competitors.
If your business fails, it fails too bad for you. That’s a risk you decided to take when you opened up shop sunshine, welcome to capitalism!
“An indian farmer can increase productivity by switching from a plow to a tractor. But how can a japanese farmer who is already using a tractor increase his productivity? Its hard to be more productive when you are already the most productive country in the world. Thats why developed countries have slower growth rates.”
That tractor and increased production would be for naught if no one existed to buy what that Indian farmer was selling. The reason why such technology exists is because producers were incentivized to match the market demand as closely as possible. If no one is buying Indian crops, farmers aren’t going to buy tractors because there will be no profit. It’s a self sustaining loop.
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@solesearch “We don’t want him in public office”…. I really don’t agree with that. He got a fair portion of the populare vote and was a much better contenter than McCain. Maybe watching the national news have brainwashed you but the man is very smart and self driven. I’m sure he could be used in a positive way. You shouldn’t just see the worst in people.
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I was going to avoid this because it’s like the losing team complaining about the refs. But since there are those who refuse to win graciously….. here goes this s*** storm. http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20121112_In_59_Philadelphia_voting_wards__Mitt_Romney_got_zero_votes.html
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I know someone who lives in one of those zones and he POSITIVELY voted for Romney. I guess his vote really didn’t count.(In reference to the link above)
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by the way I really don’t think obama himself could pull this scandal off. It is who ever has him in their pocket. Who I think is far more sinister.
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dave,
For the other side of the coin, i.e. ‘sore losers’, check out many of the the post election comments on the “Why I’m voting for Obama” post. It’s rife with btching, belly-aching and insults to the intelligence of Obama voters / supporters.
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“Are authors and poets and singers producing nothing? ”
That’s right. They’re standing on there heads and you’re paying to see it.
“When has competition destroyed economies? Oh, I remember: Never! ”
I didn’t say competition destroyed economies. I’m all for competition. But I’m not for dumping millions of unskilled workers on the market to drive down wages.
“If your business fails, it fails too bad for you. That’s a risk you decided to take when you opened up shop sunshine, welcome to capitalism!”
You don’t need to welcome me to capitalism. I’ve been in business for myself since I was 15.
“That tractor and increased production would be for naught if”
Thats true but it didnt address the point.
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If only Republicans had practiced what they had preached – working hard instead of frothing at the mouth and expecting that they deserve to win (entitlement) – they might have had a real shot at winning the election. Instead President Obama and his campaign team outsmarted them and outworked them at every step along the way and what happens? You have egg all over the faces of gnomes like Karl Rove and Beetlejuice and you have the fact remaining that Republicans will never defeat President Obama in an election.
President Obama and his team know the value of hard work.
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The whole concept seems ironic. The Republican party bemoans the entitlement mentality of the left, but yet clings to its own entitlement mentality as the bearers of traditional American culture and the “American” way of life. Concepts such as white privilege and special treatment for the wealthy are also notions of entitlement.
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@JT
You are right.
I am an Independent and yes, I really do believe that many Republicans live in this sort of bubble where everything on Fox News is accurate news and that Rush Limbaugh is some sort of a Messiah. There are crazy loons on both the Republican and Democratic side but I believe that the crazy loons on the Right are detrimental to the growth of this country. Many people in the GOP including the Tea Party wanted to make President Obama a one term president so much that they would even hurt the economic growth of this nation. To me, that is extremism and hatred.
Nothing can get through these people since they are very set in their ways and want to bring America back to the ”good, ol’ days”. We all know who these type of people are.
I am only 17 and my mother is the person who influences my views. However I will choose to be an Independent just in case because I don’t exactly trust political parties.
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I totally disagree with that one sided assesment to the Republican Party. From my perspective I see the Republican Party as the morale keeper of truth, liberty and faith. Had it not been for the Republican Party there would not be a United States of America. Nor would there be the 13th, 14th & 15th amendments. The Civil Rights era was sponsored by the GOP and, we still champion the good health of this country. On the other hand, the Democratic Party is the party of entitlements, big government and racial & class divisions. They almost caused this country to be divided during the Civil War and now they want another civil war between the races. And, as far as Fox News and Rush Limbaugh is concerned. I watch and listen to them daily because, the “main stream news” is to liberal and, anti capitalist. Anyway, as a Black Christian Conservative, I think I am in a better position than you are to decide which party has the countries interest in mind. So, it would behoove you to study our history and you will see that small government means more freedom for the individual.
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@ Legion
I am not surprised. Thanks.
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How do you explain people like Crystal Wright and Michael Steele? Particularly Crystal Wright…she seems to have an ax to grind with the president and will blame him if the weatherman predicts the wrong amount of snow falling.
I know black people aren’t monolithic in thought and politics, but when you see someone like her out there, you really have to question the roots of her rhetoric.
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After entering your default username and password you will be conveyed to the Online command section. Log entries are categorized by kinds on the left edge. .net to start examining!
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Reblogged this on Project ENGAGE.
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