Note: The following is based on reading the transcript of the debate alone, nothing else. I did not watch the debate, I did not listen to any of the opinions on Twitter or in the press or from anyone else, I did no fact checking.
It seemed like a draw. That came about from the way they both approached it: less as a debate to draw blood, more as a chance to hammer home their talking points in front of tens of millions of voters.
The pattern: Martha Raddatz, the moderator, would ask a question, each would give a two-sentence half-answer and then start on the talking point that was closest to the question.
The only time it got interesting was when she asked them about religion and abortion. They are both practising Catholics but have very different positions on abortion. As it turns out, that comes less from their beliefs about abortion – they both think it is wrong – and more from how they think religious beliefs should affect their lawmaking. Biden sounded like my father, Ryan sounded more like me, so maybe it is a generational thing.
Although their performances seemed about equal, I did come away trusting Obama and Biden more and Romney and Ryan less. Meaning it strengthened what I already believed. I now believe more than ever that Romney and Ryan are only interested in the rich, while Obama and Biden will do their best to protect the middle-class.
Biden is helped by the fact that while in the Senate he was more like an ordinary middle-class person than almost any other senator. Ryan is hurt by the fact that he is a rich asshole.
Ryan is also hurt by his speech at the Republican convention, which destroyed my trust in anything that comes out of his mouth. Meaning that where he and Biden disagreed, I would suppose that Biden was probably closer to the truth.
Ryan likes to talk about credibility. He does not seem to know what it is.
On the question of Iran going nuclear, I disagreed with both of them. They think threatening Iran will make them give up building a bomb. I think it will just make them more determined than ever. If Biden or Ryan were serious about stopping a nuclear arms race in the Middle East they would denuclearize Israel. What makes Israel so special?
I laughed when Biden said “stuff” instead of the s-word. I do that too.
I do agree with Ryan that something has to be done about the budget, but trusting him and Romney to do it is letting the fox into the henhouse.
Ryan has some nerve talking about bipartisanship and wanting what is best for the country. Republicans in Congress these past four years seemed quite content to screw over the country to make Obama a one-term president. That is more than reason enough to vote a straight Democratic ticket in November.
Epilogue: After I wrote this I watched a bit of the debate on YouTube. Biden comes across much more forcefully on video than in print. Ryan comes off worse.
See also:
I did get a chuckle out of the “stuff” comment, when Martha Raddatz, asked Joe bidden, “what do you mean, “stuff” LOL
My biggest laugh of the debate was from Joe bidden, when Paul Ryan stated , “Jack Kennedy lowered tax rates, increased growth. Ronald Reagan” immediately, Joe Biden responds, Oh, now you’re Jack Kennedy?” LMFAO!
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Oh yeah, that was funny too.
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The battleground for two opposing public relations agencies to duke it out.
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I suppose that’s going to be the general format: each side presents their case and the voters do homework. I agree with Abagond that a straight Democrat ticket is about the only option as this current GOP party is too entrenched, regardless of its policies being terrible.
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I’ve always been iffy in my thoughts towards Biden (not to mention his tendency to plant his foot firmly in his mouth), but I think he managed to, if not make stuff interesting, at least hand Ryan his ass a couple times.
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Thanks for the recap Abagond. I am going to be perfectly honest and say I can’t watch these debates. Not one. Not now. I am holding my breath and hoping for the best that Obama – Biden get reelected. I know that Romney and Ryan are frauds. The only thing they can do is lie. But if they lie well enough people might believe them. Which i am terrified of. I think this is why i can’t watch the debates.
Here’s hoping Obama holds Romney’s feet to the fire in five days.
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I think you are right.
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I will be voting a straight democratic ticket. This current GOP has proven itself to be more concerned with discrimination and padding the pockets of the rich than in doubling down to do the countries business. I only agree with conservatives on immigration, gun ownership and partly on smaller, more efficient government. Otherwise, we part ways after that. Ryan and Romney have been caught in so many lies and Romney has switched positions so many times, I have no idea who to believe. And the fact that they have refused to really give any specifics about their plans is arrogant and infuriating.
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“What makes Israel so special?”
Uh, maybe it’s because it’s the only working democracy in that region? Or the fact that give or take 6 million Jews are living in an etreme hostile environment of about 1.5 billion moslims that would love to kill every last one of them?
Or that in Israel women are not treated as lesser human beings?
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@ In Vino Veritas
Um…Judaism separates the sexes too i.e. men and women prey in seperate areas, men think women are “unclean” on their period, no pork, ect They have similar customs and cultural practices to Islam actually. That’s why when they move abroad to the UK they Muslims and Jews send their kids to the same boarding schools.
Just saying.
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I’m starting to wonder whether I should vote at all. The Democratic party is the lesser of the two evils, but in the end someone will likely get screwed, and that someone is usually the one with the darker colored skin.
The problem is my fraternity has always maintained that a “Voteless people is a hopeless people”, but I’m starting to question what good does a vote give if in the end the victims remain victims no matter who’s in office. Yes, I’m being apathetic here, but society is becoming a failed democracy. That is, if it ever was a democracy.
I dunno. I’m just thinking out loud.
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I think the U.S. cares about Israel because it thinks that the Middle-Eastern nation is like its “little brother” in a way. Both countries seem very similar in regards to race, immigration, religion, and who they think are the “true” victims in both nations. I don’t know for sure.
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I registered to vote but I’m not impressed with either candidate honestly. The state of the country and the current culture has led me to pretty much decide that living abroad is where it’s at for me.
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@ Brothawolf
I agree with what you’re saying here, I feel this way more and more, every 4 years, after I haven’t seen any real reform In legislation and laws that effect black people and other people of color.
It really hits home to us black people, things like “Democracy” and the “justice system” is built by white people for white people and is used to benefit white people and at the same, used to persecute black people.
Then you have a very questionable democracy, when voter ID laws are passed to suppress the “minority” vote.
This isn’t knew as with the election of 2000 with bush, there was voter fraud across the board in that election, so why would I still feel a need to vote, when in the end, my vote doesn’t matter and sometimes it doesn’t even get count, because I’m marked as a convicted felon, even though I don’t have a criminal record!
Don’t take my word for it, see for yourself…
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I’m only voting because even if I don’t live here I have family members that will be affected if the wrong person gets into office. But like Brotha Wolf said, they both suck.
I think imperialism, which is what our current wars in the middle east are, needs to be STOPPED, so we can focus on rebuilding our infrastructure, especially our schools and healthcare system, so we can stay competitive and keep up in the global economy. We’re the wealthiest even with our debt but that is the only thing saving us for now. And that will change in our lifetime. Believe me. It’s not enough to just use brute force, countries like China are ready for that shit. Notice how we attacked Iraq on suspicion of nuclear weapons but didn’t touch North Korea who actually does have nukes. And, HELLO!, the war is going badly. That’s why it isn’t even in the media anymore. Or the national discourse, but it’s costing us taxpayers money.
None of that has been touched on by either side in this election. You can’t talk about balancing the budget, without first addressing all of the money we waste terrorizing other poorer nations for their natural resources. I’m not talking about the salaries of the servicemen, I’m talking about outdated jets/tanks that aren’t being used, just sitting around and costing us MILLIONS of dollars a day. Imperialism caused 9/11, more imperialism/bad foreign policy will encourage more 9/11’s not prevent them.
I know people think, but what if someone decides to attack us? No one is going to attack us with bombs. Why should they when they can destroy our economy and then watch our society collapse as a result. That is already happening.
How will they destroy our economy? By using men like Mitt Romney to push a political agenda that destroys the average American’s ability to live by making society more controlled, that’s why abortion is being debated at all and there are more private prisons going up everyday and more draconian laws being passed. Both parties have money or stock in defense that’s why they don’t even question it’s fiscal abuses. And the gains from these wars of imperialism don’t go to us. They go to the 1% who work in government and support the military industrial complex because of the kickbacks they get. While Americans die in these wars or come back home to commit suicide because of PTSD or don’t get proper support because of or fucked up infrastructure.
Seriously people. Wake up.
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@ In Vino Veritas
Wait, Israel is a working democracy? Well @#$%, I thought it was a U.S. puppet steeped in 65 years of disposition and 45 years of brutal occupation of Palestinian land. Not to mention the fact that this shining beacon of light has violated numerous U.N. resolutions through increasingly conquering Palestinian majority territories, extra-judicial killings, and its repeated acts of military aggression. Ah, but of course, Arab resistance and revolt against colonization and displacement cannot possibly be justified.
@ brothawolf
I think the U.S.’ indiscriminate support of Israel also has to do with the extremely powerful Jewish lobby.
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“I think the U.S.’ indiscriminate support of Israel also has to do with the extremely powerful Jewish lobby.”
I’m even more cynical than that: I think Christians in government want Jewish Israelis to rebuild their temple so Christ will return. . . and send a lot of Jewish people to hell. It’s quite a prevalent myth in America (Not that it would work though).
So much for the separation of Church & State ‘miright?
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Siah,
I considered it when I thought about most of the Jewish community in Israel being the “real victims” of horrific injustices against them. The Holocaust is one, such reminder. And it makes a lot of sense if there is an influential Jewish lobby that connects the two nations.
Sondis and Wong,
I remember seeing American Blackout a few years ago before Bush was elected a second time. Before that, my skepticism about voting was present after the 2000 Election fiasco with Florida. Even though Bush’s terms in office has been arguably the worst years of American history since the Great Depression, it’s been noted that more blacks have been imprisoned during the Clinton administration than during Reagan and Bush Sr’s term combined! During Clinton’s reign, the War on Drugs was in full effect against poor black and brown communities, and Clinton was a Democrat.
So, to me that tells me that no matter who’s in office, even if he or she is a POC, in the end the poor and poor POC will continue to struggle instead of live. So, I ask myself, “What’s the point in counting on a system that was never built for POC’s best interest? Why support such a system in the first place?” We know the answer, but still, the solution was far from my grasp.
I know that if Romney and Ryan were elected, the rich will get treated like the spoiled hyper-overprivileged children that they are, while the poor not only struggle but suffer because of a sick pseudo-Christian ideology (that’s sometime’s employed) that God loves the rich, powerful, privileged and avarice. They will further run society into the ground parading around how they love God and America.
However, if Obama and Biden were re-elected, the same thing will happen only without the fake Holy American charade. His administration may make some changes like he did during his first term, but Obama will continue not to alienate rich and powerful white folks, conservative and liberal, no matter how much they try to discredit him using any excuse they can come up with. And even then, they will call him soft which, in reality, if he were tougher, the conservatives will traffic fear to rich and poor White Americans and lost POC who side with them.
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I visited Israel as a teen; it is actually more secular than people might think.
One thing is for certain: despite similarities between the religions of Islam and Judaism, Israel, the country, is NOT just ‘Saudi Arabia with a Jewish flavor’.
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Excellent comments Brothawolf…
I was wondering this. Where it may seem Obama is bailing out banks and the financial sector, isnt he really trying to save the older Americans who have their retirement and savings tied to these institutions? And, if 70 percent of black America is middle class, arnt many of the black Ameicans who are older and near retirement , deeply affected by if the banks failed?
The other reason to think Obama and the democrats are better is that, the Iraq war was part of a think tank of concervative republicans, Wolfowitz, Chenny, were a couple of people of this think tank, who wrote a manifesto about invading Iraq in 1992…
Administrations do differ greatly in what their agendas could be. I dont think the democrats are writing manifestos about invading other countries…
(Abagond, I mistakingly put this post on another thread, if you want to remove it from the other thread, feel free)
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@ Siah:
“Wait, Israel is a working democracy? Well @#$%, I thought it was a U.S. puppet steeped in 65 years of disposition and 45 years of brutal occupation of Palestinian land.”
Let’s for the sake of argument assume that your second sentence is not your antisemitism unfolding but actually a fact. Well, then i’ve got news for you: if you think that being a democracry prevents a country from wanting territorial expansion then you should read a good history book.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_territorial_disputes
“Ah, but of course, Arab resistance and revolt against colonization and displacement cannot possibly be justified.”
Ah, the muslims have been killing Jews ( and Christians as well) for 1400 years to the point that there are hardly any Jews or Christians left in the Midlle East and you call that “Arab resistance”?
Il faut le faire.
The fact is that Arabs living in Israel (about 20% of the population) are far better off than Jews or Christians in muslim countries. Hell, they are even better off than Arabs living in Muslim countries.
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“Let’s for the sake of argument assume that your second sentence is not your antisemitism unfolding but actually a fact.”
Talk about poisoning the well. Opposing a State’s policy =/= antisemitism.
“Ah, the muslims have been killing Jews ( and Christians as well) for 1400 years to the point that there are hardly any Jews or Christians left in the Midlle East and you call that “Arab resistance”?”
I’ll be the first to admit that Modern Islam has issues like nobody’s business, but that’s historically inaccurate. Muslims have generally gotten along with Christians and Jews, especially Jews, fairly well in Medieval Levant and Middle East, certainly better than Christians got along with Muslims and Jews in Western Asia (because there’s no such thing as “Europe”). The reason why there were so few Christians and Jews in the Middle East is for the same reason few people make offerings to Zeus; they converted. They do exist though, and always have.
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I picture Biden as a child when he throws his hands up, Kind of like F%#k I don’t know. Let me attack you Cuz I really don’t know what to say. Because your right Ryan!
As most democrats and republicans both trend to bring selected points out only support their own personal bias. If we talk to a repubican they won the debate and we talk to a democrat , they won!
I tend to want to vote for snoop dog At least he deals in reality.
I don’t like Obama cuz he is all about stomping on the constitution and taking civil rights away. Especailly with his coconspiritor Hilary Clinton. I would think that more liberals could see through the white wash. A sacrefice of anykind of the constitution is not worth the long term effect on freedom or democracy.
I don’t like Romney cuz the way his reputation for women being treated differently and views on abortion. I don’t believe it is right But on the other hand there are times it may be necessary.
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@ D. :
“Opposing a State’s policy =/= antisemitism.”
Siah insinuated that Israel was not a democracy because (s)he didn’t like their policy. I merely pointed out that this is a non sequitir.
“The reason why there were so few Christians and Jews in the Middle East is for the same reason few people make offerings to Zeus; they converted.”
Do you really believe this? There were *not* few Christians and Jews in the Middle East. There were lots of them. In the beginning of the 20th century they still made up 20% of the population.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_the_Middle_East
“The number of Middle Eastern Christians is dropping due to such factors as low birth rates compared with Muslims, extensive immigration and ethnic and religious persecution.”
Sure there will have been conversions but not of the soft kind.
I can recommend you to travel to the Middle East, i think you could be surprised how much they hate non-moslims.
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I don’t like Obama cuz he is all about stomping on the constitution and taking civil rights away.
I’ll assume you’re talking about Obamacare and how it forces you to purchase health insurance.
Everyone that owns a car pays car insurance, it’s required by law. The reason for this is a little different than the reasons for health insurance, but the end result is the same: there are more people paying for insurance than there are people using it. This creates a pool of shared money. Some of it is used to pay for property damages/ health costs. The rest of it is either saved or taken for profit. For the insurers this is great; the lower % of people getting into crashes or getting sick, the more money they make.
They make this profit because most people paying for coverage rarely, if ever, actually need that coverage. Now, imagine if the law doesn’t require you to purchase car insurance. Well, the only people who would purchase coverage are the people who need it: risk taking young adults, Alcohol and drug abusers, or a combination of the above. Now the insurers can barely scrape together a profit because everyone under their coverage is pretty much guaranteed to take more money than they pay.
This is the beginning of what is wrong with health insurance; the only people paying for coverage need it a lot, so insurers will look for ways to deny coverage and retain profits. Health insurance just doesn’t make any business sense.
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Siah insinuated that Israel was not a democracy because (s)he didn’t like their policy. I merely pointed out that this is a non sequitir.
And I pointed out your Appeal to Motive.
In the beginning of the 20th century they still made up 20% of the population.
The key word is “20th century”. You stated that this was been going on for 1400 years; it hasn’t. As you’ve said yourself, the situation was only been a mess for the last 100 years. The article you’ve linked to blames European Colonialism for planting the seeds of Anti-Christian prosecution, so we know this wasn’t happening much earlier than that.
Also, “few” isn’t an exact number. Nor is “lots”, and personally I wouldn’t describe 20% as “lots” either.
I can recommend you to travel to the Middle East, i think you could be surprised how much they hate non-moslims.
I’m aware that Modern muslims have problems like nobody’s business. I imagine that I wouldn’t come back alive in a place where being an Atheist is punishable by death, so I’ll pass : )
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I don’t remember saying anything about Obamacare? I said stomping on the constitution And taking your civill Rights away …and meant just that … the right to be free from unreasonale search and seizures, the right to free speech, The right to face and cross examine your accuser. the right to bear arms. All of these are being taken away one small piece at a time.( or big piece at a time in the case of Hilary Clinton) All you have to do is cross the path of a terrorist, or be a friend of a friend of a friend of a terrorist or be accused without substantiation. and it is over you can be put away with out the right to Counsel. without the right to trial. Is it because you are a terrorist or just oppose the administrations agenda There is more going on in Washington D C than they want you to know.and people need to wake up! They think by sticking to one party or the other their party is lookin out for them , neither one is. There are 2 evils to choose from in the election. one that will take take soveringnty away while appealing to peoples short term needs making you believe they are looking out for the middle class. And the other the GOP well from what I’ve read they are aginst the right to choose an abortion, the right to have welfare the right to have a government that don’t spend more than it takes in. …I can’t go down this path…
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@ D. :
“In the beginning of the 20th century they still made up 20% of the population.
The key word is “20th century”. You stated that this was been going on for 1400 years; it hasn’t. As you’ve said yourself, the situation was only been a mess for the last 100 years.”
Where have i said that the situation has only been a mess the last 100 years? I think the key word is “still”. That after 1300 years of persecution, murder and rape there were still 20% non-muslims left was only because technology wasn’t that advanced back then. There were lots of difficult to reach places which made it harder to eradicate the “unwanted” elements. Nowadays they are sitting ducks.
“I imagine that I wouldn’t come back alive in a place where being an Atheist is punishable by death, so I’ll pass : )”
Wise words…
But i’ve been there on a number of occassions and as long as you keep a low profile and don’t talk about politics (and certainly religion) you’re safe of. Anecdote: I was once in Sharm El Sheik and circumstances had forced me to accept a ride to my hotel from two locals. They were friendly (probably lived of the tourists, SES attracks a lot of divers) but for some reason they started to suspect me from being Jewish and the atmosfere deteriorated rapidly. I was able to convince them that i wasn’t Jewish and indeed atheïsts are considered only slightly better.
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I am amazed at the willingness of many to write about Israel and Judaism when they get their information from headlines. Most don’t even know how big Israel is or how many Jews live there — under 6 million. Do you have an inkling how big Iran is? 75 million. That’s a regime that continually makes comments about seeing Israel destroyed. I truly suggest you go see for yourself like I did. Arabs live in Israel and have businesses there. You can meet Arab young men who have taken on Hebrew names and date Jewish women.You’ll find Jewish Israelis and Arabs getting together on the West Bank to do business deals together, and, yes, gay Arabs coming into Jerusalem to be together with gay Jews. And did you know the Jews in Israel have a great deal of affection for the Iranian people, and that many in Iran feel the same way? There’s a Facebook page dedicated to it.
Please don’t comment on Israel and the Middle East unless you really know about it. There is a huge propaganda war against Israel. And I have to add that when I was in Tel Aviv I found that visiting black Africans were treated extremely well and very warmly. And I also saw Ethiopians working at shops alongside other Israelis. They were very evidently just one of the group and as Israeli as everyone else. Go and see for yourself!
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Both Paul Ryan and Joe Biden did well in this debate but I think Joe Biden did better. He came across as more experienced and mature than Paul Ryan despite his goofy antics.
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