Should George Zimmerman be arrested for killing Trayvon Martin? If you do not know about the case you can read my posts on the matter here and here or google “Trayvon Martin”.
Disclaimer: I know this poll is utterly unscientific – it takes place on a blog where the blogger has taken sides (my masthead says “Arrest Zimmerman”!) and my readership is not a random sample of anything, not even with the help of Poll Daddy. I also know people can lie but in my experience most people are more truthful when they are anonymous.
Enjoy! And feel free to opine in the comment section after the poll – but please, no racial slurs or calls for violence. I delete those.
See also:
Without a doubt, Zimmerman should be arrested. Self-defense, my heinie. He was the one who followed Trayvon and look at what happened. A young man’s life was snuffed.
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Self defense should be proportional. Somebody slaps you, you kill him…?The exception in Florida not to persecue manslaughter cases when somebody claims self defense is just simply retarded. If you can flee a hostile situation but don’t and you kill somebody, you’re just as guilty as when you commit the act of manslaughter under other conditions
Every case of manslaughter should become a court of law to prove to a judge/jury that the conditions of self defense were justifiable. So even though the law is retarded the suspect should still plea for his case even if police reports say otherwise. A death isn’t something to be taken lightly just like a traffic violation.
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Naturally YES HE SHOULD! This mand killed a minor. Period. “Self defense”? I do not care. He killed a child. Lock him up.
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Of course he should, and he should’ve been immediately at the scene.
It’s not “self-defense” when you hunt someone down and provoke a confrontation.
F’ing sick world down there in Floreeduh, land of stark epitomes of Amerikkkan Madness.
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@ Abagond
Yes. No question.
Make no mistake about it, if Zimmerman had killed a white child or Trayvon had been the shooter, we would not be having this conversation.
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I just see the size/age difference and the fact that George Zimmerman followed Trayvon Martin when he was told not to. I don’t see how anything ever would have happened if Zimmerman had not racially targeted Martin in the first place. No doubt in my mind ZImmerman belongs in Jail.
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sam
Thankfully people like yourself are not placed in positions of impartial authority.
By the way, I’m curious why you keep repeating the label, “child”. Infantalizing young adults seems dishonest.
17-19 year old males are probably the most aggressive and confrontational human demographic. I’m not suggesting that Martin was like this at all, as I didn’t know him personally and neither did you, but one shouldn’t assume a young man of that age is a meek and tender flower.
In other Florida news, here’s a “child” (16 years old at the time) on currently on trial for murdering a police officer:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Lindsey
And another “child” (16 years old at the time) on trial for the murder of two British tourists:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2118785/Shawn-Tyson-said-murdered-James-Cooper-James-Kouzaris-Sarasota-Florida.html
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Bernhard Goetz.
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The City of Sanford’s statement that it is prohibited from arresting Zimmerman is wrong. The “stand your ground” statute does not prohibit an arrest where the shooter invokes self defense. Rather, the statute is to be used by the defendant as a defense after he is charged with homicide. In other words, ordinary homicide laws apply to this or any other shooting; the “stand your ground” statute is an overlay that would be invoked by the defendant after being arrested and charged.
In fact, as we know from the Trevor Dooley case, where the shooter is black he will be arrested and charged.
Here is a blog discussing this issue in part.
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/20/florida-shooting-focuses-attention-on-stand-your-ground-law/
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Incidentally, I agree with commenters who resist using “child” to describe Trayvon. The media generally glosses over the fact that Trayvon was a high school football player, slim but tough and fit, and taller than Zimmerman, who is short and obese (and, by the sound of his voice, somewhat of a nebbish). The tidbits of information from the investigation suggest that Trayvon did open a can of whupass on Zimmerman.
Assuming this is true, I don’t know why the MSM seems intent on trying to gloss over this or sweep it under the rug. That is exactly what I teach my children to do in the same circumstances. Any thinking parent would teach their children the same.
Almost 100% of the time, when a random strange adult physically accosts a child or teenager, he (it’s almost always a man) means to commit sexual assault and murder. Once he gets you into a vehicle or private location, it’s all over. Your only chance, your last chance, is to fight like a wildcat the moment he lays hands on you.
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@ Randy
Do us all a favor…
Go to Walmart, buy a white bedsheet, poke some holes in it and call it a day.
Your semantical jargon is getting tired.
We’re on to you.
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@ Randy:
How charming. Both of your examples were black-on-white. Given how uncommon black-on-white murder is, there is only one chance in 213 that that was an “accident”.
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President Obama speaks out on the Trayvon Martin case!!!!
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/23/obama-makes-first-comments-on-trayvon-martin-shooting/?hp
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Do you realize how happy the race realists will be if Zimmerman is acquitted of all charges?
They will curse Trayvon and his hoodie for Zimmerman ever even being considered capable of such heinousness. Look at Fox News Channel and their coverage of the murder.
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/geraldo-rivera-the-hoodie-is-as-responsible-for-trayvon-martins-death-as-george-zimmerman/
I say arrest Zimmerman and charge him with murder one/two.
Murder two would have the best chance but murder one is what he deserves.
But ultimately give him the justice that his family wants. Which is life in prison.
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@randy
The male brain isn’t fully developed till the age of 25. The prefrontal cortex which inhibits impulses isn’t fully grown till that age. To “infantalize” people between the age of 17 and 19 isn’t dishonest, it’s just a biological fact.
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@ Randy
Do us all a favor…
Go to Walmart, buy a white bedsheet, poke some holes in it and call it a day.
Your semantical jargon is getting tired.
We’re on to you.
“”
@ Truthbetold
Cosigned!
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abagond:
No attempt was made to select for race.
Go to google news and search for: florida teen murder -trayvon -martin
The links I posted are from the 1st and 4th results.
Result #2 was skipped because it’s tied to the Martin-Zimmerman story and links to an older black man who shot and killed a white Iraq vet and claimed self-defense.
Result #3 didn’t apply.
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@ Randy
Sure, sure…
( wink, wink)
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I think he should be arrested, but I don’t know how to vote. I’m white and non-American, but I don’t know what the last options (yes/no and none of the above) are for. Didn’t you cover all the groups with other options?
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@Mira I don’t want to speak for abagond, but I think you should vote (Yes, and I am not American) choice #9. I guess he thinks race outside of the country on this issue isn’t as important and I happen to agree with him there.
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maybe he will adjust the poll though?
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@ Mira
Dave is right. You are not an American so that is how you would vote.
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@ Mira
“Didn’t you cover all the groups with other options?”
Yes I did. I find it pretty interesting that there are votes there, even a pro-Zimmerman one last I checked. I am assuming those are Americans who do not want to be categorized by race, like our dear Don, the Race-Doesn’t-Matter Americans.
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Currently the most pro-Zimmerman categories:
33% None of the Above
25% Hispanic American
5% White American
He gets no support so far from anyone else.
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Even Bill OReilly’s show last night seemed against Zimmerman.
Zimmerman should have been arrested when they cuffed him in the first place. If he had been injured you can be sure we’d be seeing that but the blood reported on his nose was probably Trayon’s from the blast of the gun. I feel that the police didn’t arrest Zimmerman cuz they know him, it is not credible to say that he was the neighborhood watch captain, but then claim out of the side of your mouth that he wasn’t “registered”. If the police met with the home association, including the woman who trains neighborhood watch, if there was a “neigborhood watch” sign in front of the complex, then he was acting as a representative of the complex and associate of the police, and they just don’t want to be responsible for their failure to stop Zimmerman before this happened. All those complaints fell on deaf ears until this happened and they still won’t take responsibility.
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@ Randy
I see you are showing you usual “I’m too smart to be racist sitting on the fence” side. Notice no opinion on the very topic of this post?
This alone shows up your total non-impartiality on this issue. So you can come down from that fence and pick up your white robe you dropped!
Secondly…Lets contrast the two cases you site. You are forever preaching about double standards and bias yet in both cases of Black suspects. Both have gone through the arrest and trail process…and even sentenced
But Zimmerman remains free and uncharged???
Your examples show how stark and one sided the issue of racial justice is for Black and white suspects. But still you believe remain undecided about how Zimmerman should be treated?
Your attitude is callous and indifferent to the worth of Black life and that is putting it mildly!!!
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This is a total cop-out !!! And in reality not that far removed from how Randy would probably respond!
Obama does not deserve the credit most Black people would apparently give him
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No.
The media have covered this story in an outrageously one sided way.
Why the hell has the media almost always failed to mention this????
Zimmerman might have said something to Trayvon that he thought was challenging him and dissing him as young black males are prone to do including to actual cops, and started beating on him. Don’t know but it’s not implausible.
Florida has a “stand your ground law”. Under that law you’re allowed to use force including with a firearm if you reasonably believe that your life is in danger or you’re about to suffer a physically violent felony.
If Trayvon Martin was physically beating the Hispanic Zimmerman up as the eye witness reported, then Zimmerman falls within what’s permitted by Florida’s law.
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@Kwamla
“This is a total cop-out !!! And in reality not that far removed from how Randy would probably respond!
Obama does not deserve the credit most Black people would apparently give him”
I agree, this seems more like an opportunity that just happened to fall in his lap.
We’ll see how far he takes it though, he might be sincere.
@vanishingpoint
“Zimmerman should have been arrested when they cuffed him in the first place.”
Damn right he should have, they should have held him until he was proven guilty/innocent not just release him. That was one hell of a major blunder, something that should shame the department for years to come.
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Sorry wrong link. Should be this:
http://onestdv.blogspot.com/2012/03/great-black-victim.html
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Trayvon was not a child. The was a teenager or adolescent. The media shown pictures of him were mostly when he was 13.
As Randy says teenagers commit one hell of a lot of crime and violent crime, especially black ones do.
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Abagond:
Yes, he should have been arrested back in late February, when the shooting took place. Based on the anecdotal evidence i’ve heard about from the 911 tapes, he’s guilty as sin. I don’t know how any rational person can say otherwise. My biggest concern is that Zimmerman will walk because the so-called Sanford PD botched the crime scene evidence on purpose in a major way. Both of Zimmerman’s parents have worked in the court system in the past in the state of Virginia. The special treatment by police makes sense now, CYA! As to the race of Zimmerman, he’s a whiteman…Point Blank! Spanish folk are trying to colorize him, by using his so-called black relatives as cover for his racial bias…Bull****! Abagond, you know how i feel about the latino/hispanic identity insanity. White spaniards and spanish blacks who try to excuse the killing of Treyvon Martin by saying that Zimmerman is not really a racist because he’s a so-called hispanic should think twice about doing that. They’re pouring gasoline on the fire if they do that. Racism in spanish culture is just as bad, so, i don’t wanna see and hear them making fools of themselves with their colorblind racism…Bottomline!!!
Tyrone
MindScape
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BBB85–
According to the eyewitness the 6’2″ Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman who was lying on the ground. Fleeing was not an option.
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@ Doug1
This is a simple post Doug1 which you too seem incapable of answering.
Yes or No ?
Now ask yourself given the verbosity of your response why you won’t even respond. Guilt perhaps?
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abagond–
What the hell are you talking about???? Black on white murder is very common.
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I guess I don’t see this from a racial angle, first and foremost. I mean, Zimmerman did kill Trayvon, didn’t he? I think I’m not familiar with the “self-defense = you go free” option. I don’t think it exists in my country. Well, I guess it does, but for most of these cases you do go to jail. I think. Not sure.
I’m utterly unfamiliar with the whole “general population has a gun” thing. I might be stereotyping, but I do think the gun policy in America is… well, a bit too open.
That being said, I’m pissed off at the police here, because I’m sure they’ve released him because the victim was black. Not sure how Zimmerman’s race fits into this.
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You need a button for, “I am not an American and I am a person of color”
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No Zimmerman, who’s Hispanic, shouldn’t be arrested under Florida law unless there’s something non credible about the eyewitness’s report, such as contradictory eye witness report(s).
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@Doug:In fact, he was under a five day suspension when the shooting took place. That is why he was staying at a house so far from his school on a school night. A laywer for Trayvon’s family has blocked access to his school records. However, you have to do something pretty bad to get suspended for five days.
____
My daughter,about the same age as Trayvon, got detention for being 30seconds late walking into the Lunchroom, the bell was ringing as she walked in. You don’t have to “do something pretty bad”, that is just your imagination in high gear. I talked to the guidance counselor to make sure this wasn’t on her permanent records and they couldn’t answer me yes or no. But you seem intent on blaming the victim.
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Kwamla:
I’ve offered no opinion because I lack sufficient facts to form one. The evidence which has been released to the public so far does not shed light on how the physical altercation between Zimmerman and Martin was initiated.
Kwamla:
The cases I cited were solely meant to refute sam’s contention that a 17+ year old male is a “child” who a priori is a timid, helpless person who must always be judged to be the victim in any physical altercation with an adult.
Kwamla:
The relative worth of a “[insert ethnicity] life” should play no role in determining legal responsibility. So yes, I am completely indifferent to it, as should you be for the purposes of assigning guilt.
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@Tryrone,
I keep wondering if the support for the arrest by white Americans is stronger because of the perception that Zimmerman is latino?
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vanishingpoint–
The family has taken steps to keep the media from looking at Trayvon’s school records.
The important thing though is the eyewitness’s report that Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman who was lying on the ground, bloodied, as Trayvon was continuing to beat him up, with Zimmerman yelling for him. When none came he shot Trayvon, which Florida law permits under such circumstances.
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@ Randy
Should Zimmerman be arrested?
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*with Zimmerman yelling for help .
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vanishpoint–
He didn’t get an hour of detention. He got five days straight suspension from school. Couple of orders of magnitude more.
The main point of that though is it illustrates how the MSM is working in overdrive to make Trayvon as sympathetic as possible.
Also the stuff that’s in blockquotes is not something I wrote. I found it on OneSTDV’s blog. He got it from here:
“”
http://www.examiner.com/charleston-conservative-in-charleston-sc/zimmerman-was-on-the-ground-being-punched-when-he-shot-trayvon-martin
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Abagond–
If there wasn’t an eyewitness who said that Trayvon had Zimmerman pinned to the ground beating him up before he shot Trayvon, which the vast majority of Americans don’t know about because almost none of the media has reported that, then yes I’d want Zimmerman arrested.
I’d also want him arrested if there was a significantly contradictory eyewitness report.
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The first reporting of the local Fox affiliate does give the eyewitness report information, but the national media haven’t:
http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1phFMGCu4
This is really OUTRAGEOUS on the part of the MSM. Almost the whole country has the wrong impression of what happened. Zimmerman didn’t shoot Trayvor because he wouldn’t stop and answer questions or because he was mouthing off to him. He shot him because he was pinned to the ground by the 6’2″ adolescent, being repeatedly beaten up. Shooting wasn’t the first thing Zimmerman did either. He yelled to the eyewitness for help, repeatedly.
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RBB85 responding to Randy:
“The male brain isn’t fully developed till the age of 25. The prefrontal cortex which inhibits impulses isn’t fully grown till that age. To “infantalize” people between the age of 17 and 19 isn’t dishonest, it’s just a biological fact.”Indeed! Thanks for reminding Randy!
@Truthbetold regarding Randy: cosign!
My two cents: Yes, Zimmerman should be arrested. He acted on his OWN accord when told not to do so. Zimmerman hunted this child (young Man- shout out to Peanut, =) and shot him like a wild animal. I’ve heard all the victim blaming on Fox that typically occurs in these situations. So, I better make sure my hemline is below the knee when going out tonight and oh, when I’m out at 6 on the cold Northeast coast of the U.S. in the morning pounding the pavement, getting my 5 miles in, I better not wear a hoodie (especially with my unpermed hair!) for some white people and even some “honorary” whites will feel threatned, and we all know what could happen if some white ppl feel threatned or perceive your attitude as ‘uppity’.
Personal story: My husband and I have lived in a very exclusive area for ten years. For ten years, I’ve been either running or biking in the morning, and yet the private security crew hired by our neighborhood association needed to be confronted by my husband twice for basically stalking me. Argh!
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Abbagond–
On an earlier post you said the following as if it’s an established fact:
That is a product of your (and many others) fevered wishing it to be so.
Even after audio enhancing that 911 tape CNN experts came to no consensus that’s what Zimmerman said. I certainly don’t hear that in the tape.
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The World We Live In—
The 911 dispatcher didn’t tell him not to. He said “we don’t need you to do that” meaning following him. Yes he was discouraging him from doing so but that’s it. As well 911 phone operators aren’t the police. They don’t have authority to tell him not to. But even if they did it doesn’t make him guilty of a crime.
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When the police arrived they found physical evidence consistent with Zimmerman’s claim of being attacked and shooting in self defense, and with the eyewitness report. Zimmerman was bleeding from his nose and the back of his head. He had grass stains on his back and his back was wet (the grass was wet from rain).
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@ Doug1 : Your correction is noted Doug1 and so is your insistence to excuse Zimmerman’s behavior.
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I think it was a case of self defense. The eyewitness who made the 911 call after the shooting was very clear about what he saw and it was consistent with the physical evidence the police found at the scene of the shooting.
None of this is usually mentioned in the MSM reports on what happened, only that Zimmerman claimed self defense and the police believed him. They had a good lot of reason to it seems to me.
I also find it pretty maddening that the media run pictures of him when it was 13 and rarely recent ones. He’s not the little kid they picture. He’s 6’2″, much taller than Zimmerman, on the football team and strong and fit, to Zimmerman’s obese.
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The reason formal neighborhood watch organizations strictly instruct their members not to confront suspects (Zimmerman was not part of such an organization), the reason the laws prohibit private citizens from seeking private vigilante justice, is because not-to-bright individuals (such as obese loser punks with delusions of wannabe cop grandeur) lose sight of the reality that anybody on the street could be an innocent civilian. They’ll guess wrong and then somebody ends up needlessly hurt or dead.
It has been widely reported that Zimmerman previously “caught” another criminal. We don’t know what that means, but I assume it means he physically grabbed a stranger assuming the stranger was committing a crime, and as fortune would have it, in that case he guessed right.
But Zimmy had no special training nor mojo in terms of discerning criminals from law abiding citizens. In fact, as we now know, Zimmy was predisposed to guess wrong with respect to black males. As previously stated, Zimmy is a wannabe cop with fantasies of vigilante glory, probably fueled by his general failure at the game of life. He probably got some “well done” slaps on the back the first time he caught a criminal and was hungry for more.
That kind of activity by a private citizen should be against the law, especially when, as here, it results in a death. Period. If Florida’s “stand your ground” law shields Zimmy here, then it stands as Exhibit A for why these law are wrong for this nation.
By the way, I noted that the Seminole County State Attorney Norman R. Wolfinger Thursday night removed himself from the case. He said he did so in the interest of assuring the public of a fair and impartial review. Bullsh*t. My bet is that he did it because he knows that Florida’s “stand your ground” law will shield Zimmy here, and Wolfinger doesn’t want to be the guy attached to that result. After all, he will need to seek re-election at some point.
The issue here is twofold: (1) Zimmerman is an obese loser wannabe cop who profiled Tray because of his race, but was too much of a punk to finish what he started like a man, and (2) Florida has a law on the books that protects a shit like Zimmerman.
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abagond:
I hesitate to give an answer because it’s highly likely that evidence exists which I don’t have access to, and I lack a background in criminal justice.
But let’s make a few assumptions for the sake of discussion and see where that gets us.
If the existing evidence holds, it appears to suggest that at the time of shooting, Martin was on top of Zimmerman, punching him. Zimmerman appears to have called out for help and none came. Zimmerman had wounds to the face and the back of the head and appears to be the person on the 9/11 tape screaming.
If you knew absolutely nothing else at all about this incident, would that be sufficient under Florida law to charge Zimmerman?
Lacking a background in criminal justice, I can only speculate. I suspect that it probably wouldn’t be, considering the existing precedents of “stand your ground” appear to grant the benefit of the doubt to the defender.
Now let’s add a bit more information, such as the race of Zimmerman and Martin. Does that change the legal basis for whether to arrest Zimmerman? No.
Now let’s add in the ages. Does that change the legal basis for whether to arrest Zimmerman? No.
A seventeen year old football player is certainly capable of inflicting severe injury on a 28 year old couch potato.
Now let’s examine the how the physical altercation came to pass. Might that change the legal basis for whether to arrest Zimmerman?
I suspect so, but that is one area where there appears to be no evidence one way or the other.
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Yes, he should be arrested. Only time will tell if justice will be served. Here is a pretty interesting piece regarding, Martin vs. Zimmerman.
http://www.timwise.org/2012/03/trayvon-martin-white-denial-and-the-unacceptable-burden-of-blackness-in-america/
*it’s somewhat comical to see the Zimmerman defenders on here, like they have a vested interest in his innocent. It truly is telling of the individual.*
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I’m all for them. It doesn’t allow use of a potentially deadly weapon when you’re being mugged for example. It allows it when you either reasonably fear for your life or fear a violent felony will be committed against you. All states allow the first, Florida and some others allow the second.
Just how beaten up do you think Hispanics or whites should have to let themselves be, when they’re pinned down, before they can use potentially deadly force? Just allow a broken arm when they can’t otherwise stop it? How about a crushed leg, such that they might only be able to limp for the rest of their life? Is it ok to prevent fingers from being cut off with a gun shot?
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mashira–
I’m mainly pissed about the extremely one sided nature of the MSM’s coverage of this. It rises to the level of propaganda.
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@randy, doug:
I see our house racists are here again defending a child killer and supporting child murdering with gusto. Way to go, minor murderer fans!
For me anyone who is not legally adult is a child. As for the “towering 6.2”, this guy was 140lbs. That guy is not lean mean killing machine but a tall and lanky teenager. Zimmerman was over 200 lbs. He was 28. If he was not a mutant or seriously retarded a grown up man weighing over 200 lbs shoul be able to handle any teen with 140lbs with one hand if need be. If that grown up is such a loser he can not do that, he should stay in doors at all times because any old granny could whip him at any time then.
I do not know where you guys have lived all your lives, why on earth you guys want to promote teenage killing and rationalise murdering, but where I come from kids are kids. I for one used to do all sorts of very stupid things in my teens, I used to get into all sorts of troubles, did some fighting etc. but let me tell you: when a grown man showed up with bad intentions, no matter how tuff teenagers there were, we all ran for our lives. And these grown ups did not have guns, but bare hands. One grown man against five, ten kids, and we ran like hell.
Another thing you guys keep blabberin about: this kid did not attack any one. Mr Zimmerman ran after him. I repeat: MR ZIMMERMAN RAN AfTER THE KID.How the hell you numbnuts turn that into self defense? Fat obese guy with a gun ran after the kid!! Kid was runing away from him. So who attacked who?
“The 911 dispatcher didn’t tell him not to. He said “we don’t need you to do that” meaning following him. Yes he was discouraging him from doing so but that’s it. As well 911 phone operators aren’t the police. They don’t have authority to tell him not to. But even if they did it doesn’t make him guilty of a crime.”
SAY WHAT? The dispatcher is an official working for PD. He is the conduit between the cops on the street and any callers. When he gives instructions that means you are supposed to do as he tells you. A civilian should do what they are told to do by the dispatcher. If you call for fire brigade and the dispacther tells you to get out from the burning building, would stay in just because the dispatcher is not police??? They are trained professionals, something Zimmerman never was.
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George Zimmerman should definitely go to jail. However, he acted as a police officer (not in name or position but in spirit) and thus will be protected from his crimes. One thing that is missing from the discourse about this case is the nature of the police. The police do not exist to serve and protect. They exist to protect this corrupt social order. So long as its pillars still exist, deaths like Trevyon Martin’s will keep happening.
I tried to make this point earlier, but I’m not the best writer around.
http://anarchistnews.org/content/murder-trayvon-martin
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Doug 1,
Did you not hear that witnesses actually said it was Trayvon screaming for help while being chased and harassed by Zimmerman ? Did you not hear the 911 tapes where Zimmerman talks about stalking Trayvon?
The facts are this:
1. Zimmerman was NOT bloodied on the ground, begging for help.
2. Trayvon had a hood up because it was raining, not to case a joint or mug someone.
3. Zimmerman was caught on tape stalking (and admitting to following) Trayvon, despite authorities telling him not to do that.
4. Zimmerman HAS been in trouble with the law before for violent actions.
5. Zimmerman has been documented as someone who often harasses and complains about blacks in that neighborhood, and many black people have said they felt unsafe walking around due to his obsessive need to report and follow black men.
6. Witnesses said that Trayvon had been the victim, but they were “corrected” by cops at the scene.
7. If Zimmerman was truly under attack, then it was only because he went after Trayvon first, and by your very logic, he should have been able to use “Stand Your Ground” to beat Zimmerman down until he left him alone.
Using the real facts of the case (and not the ones made up by Zimmerman and his supporters to downplay the situation), Yes, under the law Zimmerman should arrested. Yes, morally, Zimmerman was in the wrong.
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@GreatMuta
George Zimmerman should definitely go to jail.
I think you mean GZ should be arrested and sent to trial. Just because the blacks think a white man is automatically guilty, does not mean he goes straight to jail. We’re entitled to a trial, too.
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@ Kwamla,
I respectfully disagree with what you said. I think President Obama was sympathetic (“If i had a son …”) but relatively neutral. He would be reckless if he ventured into decisions of the judicial system (guilty or innocent). Especially, since he wasnt present at the time of Trayvon’s murder.
It is when you have anyone else like Randy or Doug that are trying to purport non-racism but are siding with Zimmerman (or so-called “innocent until proven guilty”) that i take issue with. What part of the bottom line are they missing? You have a a 30 year old that followed a 17 year old like a predator. And you have a 17 year old shot by the 30 year old. And the 17 year old was unarmed.
What more do these people to see why Zimmerman is as guilty as sin.
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personinmotion:
According to Florida law, the use of deadly force is allowed when: “Trying to protect yourself or another person from death or serious bodily harm;
For your argument to true, you must assert the following:
1. A 17 year old is physically incapable of inflicting death or serious bodily harm on a 28 year old.
or
2. A 30 year old who verbally accosts a 17 year old, whether justified or not, forfeits his rights to defend himself against serious injury or death.
Point number 1 is not physically valid, and point number 2 is not legally valid.
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@ everyone
Reading the arguments here from the white populous makes me wonder what will become of the United States of America.
I am deeply ashamed to have been naturalized.
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Ace—
Wrong. When the police arrived at the scene of the gun shot, they found Zimmerman with a bloody face and back of his head and further with a grass stained back and wet back (the grass was wet). Further the eyewitness who called 911 told police and a local news reporter that Martin was on top of Zimmerman (who had on a red sweater) punching him repeatedly and beating him up.
http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1phFMGCu4
Never said otherwise.
The 911 phone operator is not an authority, not police, and didn’t tell even tell him not to, just suggested it by saying “we don’t need you to do that”, meaning follow Martin. Following him for a few minutes due to suspicion he might want to case the neighborhood for robbery is not stalking someone and is not illegal.
No, he’s patrolled for possible criminals, caught one and helped catch others. Were they black? Don’t know, might have been. Blacks commit a hell of a lot more crime per capita than whites do. He was well known to the police and though helpful, and was also though helpful by most of his neighborhood association, which wanted him to serve a neighborhood watch function. There had been a lot of robberies in the neighborhood over the last year.
There was one female witness who later said that, AFTER the whole national furor developed. Cops said she corroborated the 911 caller’s eyewitness account when she first gave them a statement. The male eyewitness’s account was very certain and clear unlike her later one, he was within close and was never changed.
There is no eyewitness account of how the fight began but I really doubt that short and obese Zimmerman would punch Martin out of the blue. However if Zimmerman was trying to question Martin as to what he was doing in the neighborhood etc., I think it’s entirely plausible that “profiling” of him would piss him off and lead him to start a physical fight (not knowing Zimmerman was armed).
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@Doug1
Let’s say that I concede that Trayvon did get the best of Zimmerman, does he deserve to be arrested? HELL to the motha effin yes he should be arrested. Why? Because none of this needed to happen. Had he listened to the 911 dispatcher and stayed in his car and waited for police, not followed him demanding to know what he was doing there, not initiated the physical altercation (per Trayvon’s girlfriend that was on the phone with him up until his time of death to the minute), he wouldn’t have put Trayvon in the position of having to DEFEND HIMSELF from some strange man following him.
Per another witness (a teenage boy around Trayvon’s age) that has come forward to the media this week; as he was leaving his home to take his dog outside for a walk he saw Zimmerman standing over Trayvon while he was still alive, on the ground trying to get away screaming for help. The witness’ sister went inside to call 911, the witness was distracted from the altercation because his dog got off its lead. In the few seconds he took his eyes off of them a shot was fired and Trayvon was dead. He turned back to see Zimmerman still standing above an unmoving/dead Trayvon.
One of them is lying. I’ll give you three guesses which one…
Now, are you saying that Trayvon DID NOT have the right to defend himself from Zimmerman? He deserved to die and Zimmerman should not be held responsible for what he did because Trayvon successfully defended himself from Zimmerman AT FIRST? Zimmerman isn’t even a registered/trained Neighborhood watch participant!!! So yes, I feel Zimmerman deserved to get his ass kicked(if that actually happened) and he deserves to be arrested and charged for killing him.
You make no sense…..
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@truthbetold you don’t see any white americans outraged at this? Or is it you choose to only see what you perceive is the negative/
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Biff,
“I think you mean GZ should be arrested and sent to trial. Just because the blacks think a white man is automatically guilty, does not mean he goes straight to jail. We’re entitled to a trial, too.”
How ironic. For marginalized people around the world, we are guilty until proven innocent. And yet when that same logic is applied to one of the majority…
Don’t worry though. GZ will probably get a slap on the wrist because hey, he was only trying to protect his community from those others. Meanwhile, a young man is dead for no reason other than his skin color and yet even then you can not see that. No, instead you make this case all about yourself. Sad really.
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He was suspended for being tardy. What a horrible, violent offense ::eyeroll::
http://www.thegrio.com/specials/trayvon-martin/slain-teens-friends-say-he-never-picked-a-fight.php
So now that completely unrelated diversion didn’t pan out, I wonder what they’ll come up with next?
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Mary Cutcher, who is the witness who after this shooting blew up into a national scandal told CNN that she didn’t think there was a physical fight before the shooting didn’t actually visually witness what was happening before the shooting. She just heard sounds of what she called whining and then the gunshot. Then she saw Zimmerman over Martin AFTER the gunshot.
http://www.kctv5.com/story/17207684/witness-to-fl-teen-shooting-not-self-defense
In contrast the eyewitness John DID visually see Trayvor on top of Zimmerman, pinning him to the ground and punching Z in the face. Further police saw physical evidence that Zimmerman had been beaten up. His face and back of his head were bloody, and he had grass stains and wet on his back (the grass was wet).
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prettyg said:
Has evidence surfaced suggesting that Zimmerman initiated the physical altercation with Martin?
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PrettyG–
No.
If Zimmerman started the physical fight, threw the first punches, then I’d arrest Zimmerman. I just don’t think it at all likely that he did.
Although Zimmerman is heavier than Martin, he’s obese and out of shape, Martin at 6’2″ was much taller, a football player, fit and tough.
I think what happened is that Zimmerman questioned him, Martin got pissed at being dissed or profiled etc., Zimmerman didn’t verbally back off, and Martin started beating Z up. Z got scared he was really going to get seriously injured and or maybe killed, yelled to eyewitness John for help repeatedly, (who was the only one who saw as opposed to heard what was happening before the gun shot), and shot Trayvon Martin.
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Also, as abagond has said, Zimmerman apparently has a high pitched voice (not sure about Trayvon’s) so Mary Cutcher’s assumption that the “whining” she heard before the gunshot was coming from Trayvon doesn’t hold much weight I don’t think.
As well Trayvon’s father apparently heard a recording of the “whining” and said it wasn’t the voice of his son, which is an admission against interest, and should be given weight.
I also think that witness accounts given right after the events as opposed to ones told to reporters at CNN after this has become a national enormous purported scandal should be given MUCH more weight. It’s obvious that anyone coming down on the side of Trayvon and his family now are going to be given great fanfare by the American MSM, whereas those whose accounts are favorable to Zimmerman’s defense are going to be vilified. There’s a reason why the only visual eyewitness of the fight before the gunshot will only give his first name, John.
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The mainstream media has been so god damned irresponsible and intentionally misleading about the evidence for what happened. They’ve whipped up a national scandal by misleading almost the whole public into what likely happened from the evidence.
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Sam—
That’s you. That’s not standard English usage. Pre-teens are children. Teens especially older teens are adolescents. There are plenty of very dangerous older teens.
Zimmerman was 250lb, short, obese and out of shape. I don’t even know if Trayvon was really still only 140lb or whether that was three or four years ago, god knows there’s been enough distortions from the families side and they’ve (their lawyer who’s skilled at spinning the press) tried to portray him as juvenile as possible what with all the pics of him when 13 etc., but in any event he was a starting American high school football player, which means he’s got to be muscular and tough if he’s anything but a kicker.
No 911 phone operators are not working for the police department. There are police dispatchers who are who mostly route cops to crime scenes, but they’re not them. Instead they pass information on to the police and fire department and ambulances as appropriate. They also do sometimes give advice on how to handle emergencies before help arrives etc.
Disregarding what 911 wants you to do is not a crime.
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Doug1,
Zimmerman as self-appointed Howdy Doody was irresponsible.
Zimmerman following Trayvon with a gun was irresponsible.
Zimmerman saying “coons,” and they “always get away” was irresponsible and demonstrative of motive.
The sheriff and police’s bungling of the investigation has been irresponsible.
The lack of arrest has been irresponsible.
The neo-nazi, Sarah Palin rallying cry against the mainstream media has been irresponsible.
These are the sources of current irresponsibility.
I think it is time that white people rightfully identify with the villain in the fairy tale, not as the hero. They misplace themselves in the story too frequently.
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Zimmerman was 250lb, short, obese and out of shape.
Yet he fancied his chances cos he had a gun! Regardless of whether an altercation did occur (this wouldnt have happened had he listened to what the despatch said) he went out, ‘armed’, and approached Trayvon.
This ‘Rent-a-cop’ made a choice, an irresponsible and self motivated choice. The man should take responsiblity for what he has done. End of…
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@ Randy
Do us all a favor…
Go to Walmart, buy a white bedsheet, poke some holes in it and call it a day.
Your semantical jargon is getting tired.
We’re on to you.
“”
@ Truthbetold
Cosigned!
Yea. What they said.
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The overt message seems to be, ‘if you get into an altercation with a teen – shoot to kill!’.
In the UK, you can get arrested and your children taken into care if you raise your hand to them and yes, at the age of 17, you would STILL be culpable for this. WTF is going on here I ask myself…the double standards and fear are palpable leading to justification of death!
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@Randy
No attempt was made to select for race.
Go to google news and search for: florida teen murder -trayvon -martin
The links I posted are from the 1st and 4th results.
Result #2 was skipped because it’s tied to the Martin-Zimmerman story and links to an older black man who shot and killed a white Iraq vet and claimed self-defense.
Result #3 didn’t apply.
Yet, as soon as you saw that those criminals were black, you made the decision to post them here. In other words you are still personally responsible. What was the point?
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@Truthbetold
Reading the arguments here from the white populous makes me wonder what will become of the United States of America.
I am deeply ashamed to have been naturalized.
As you can see from the comments of Randy, Doug, Bliff, and any other closeted white supremacist, it’s all about saving and protecting white people at all costs (by making comments on a blog instead of actually be more active) and to hell with black people.
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Personinmotion–
He didn’t say “coons”.
CNN put a one of it’s top audio experts onto enhancing the 911 tape audio, and then several members of their editorial staff listened to that audio, and they came to no consensus that he said “coons”. That’s a figment of blacks wanting that result.
They always get away was a reference to criminals or suspicious characters, not to blacks it doesn’t appear.
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It’s amazingly lame at the extent some people try to excuse this. You all know who I’m referring to. So, I will not mention any names.
The bottom line is that a live of a youth has been taken. The fact that this was the life of a young black male means little to them. Plain and simple. There is no logical explanation for this murder, and this filibustering trying to excuse this (That’s what they’re going. There’s no denying it even though they will because they’re that insane) doesn’t make it any more logical.
I hope I’m not the only one who noticed the blatant lack of morality coming from these people who make such comments.
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There’s so much misinformation being spouted by blacks around here.
Ah, no, that’s not what she said and the phone call ended a good while before he was shot.
Must have been pushed because the phone call ended is hardly convincing. How does she know his headset fell off? I’d expect Trayvon would have ended the call if he got into a heated argument of if he was the one doing the first pushing, or punching.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-20/news/os-trayvon-martin-girlfriend-speaks-details-20120320_1_shooting-death-gated-attorneys
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@doug:
“He was well known to the police and though helpful,”
Really? Like in 2005 when he was arrested for causing bodily harm to the police officer and resisting violently the police?
“Pre-teens are children. Teens especially older teens are adolescents. There are plenty of very dangerous older teens.”
So according to you, not only Trayvon deserved to die becauise he was suspicious black but also because he was dangerous older teen? Man, you need professional help quickly. Not only you are affraid of blacks but hysterical about teenagers. You have been repeating over and over again here how it is ok to kill teenagers. What is wrong with you, dude? Why you are so affraid of children? Is this some kind of white american sickness too?
You guys are already feeding small kids with prozac by millios and reading your writings here I beging to wonder if white americans like yourself are in desperate need of serious therapy. Dangerous teens and suspicious blacks?? What next? Killer grannies??
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@Doug1
He didn’t say “coons”.
CNN put a one of it’s top audio experts onto enhancing the 911 tape audio, and then several members of their editorial staff listened to that audio, and they came to no consensus that he said “coons”. That’s a figment of blacks wanting that result.
They always get away was a reference to criminals or suspicious characters, not to blacks it doesn’t appear.
Okay. Where is the link, video, article or whatever that backs up that he didn’t say ‘coons’? I heard the audio tape myself and I did sounded a lot like ‘coons’. Then again, it could be a figment of my inferior black imagination.
Plus, how do you know what he truly meant by ‘They always get away?’
I swear, you’re trying desperately to make it not sound like a matter of racism.
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@ Doug1
It is as plain as day that Zimmerman is racist. We do not have to hear him say “coon” to know it. It was clear from his description of Trayvon.
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brothawolf:
Imagine that you didn’t know the race of any party, or perhaps that you knew the race, and everyone was white or everyone was black, or maybe that Zimmerman was black and Martin white.
I’d consider the evidence in exactly the same way as I am now. Would you?
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Sam–
American police are notorious in overcharging anytime someone they go to arrest gives them any trouble whatsoever, and isn’t completely compliant. I mean just giving police lip when they arrest you is likely to get you charged with resisting arrest and often violently so.
He’d been involved in a bar fight. Probably he didn’t start it or they likely wouldn’t have let him just go to an anger management class which resulted in no criminal conviction.
I’m not claiming the guy is an angel or a completely sterling citizen, but he did seem to do a good job as a neighborhood watch volunteer. Member of the watch committee were happy with him, as were most neighbors, as were police. His work resulted in the arrest of one criminal and aided in that of others. He did study criminology in college for four years although he didn’t graduate.
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Brothawolfe—
Here you go.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/23/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html
The fact is that the word he used is indecipherable but it didn’t sound like it started with a “c” sound. Many people hear what they want to hear in such a circumstance. It’s not a matter of intelligence but rather of objectivity.
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abagond–
Nope it’s not. Only to you and your amen chorus around here, and well many other blacks, and some white leftists yes.
Well if by racist you mean that he’s aware that blacks commit a lot more crimes per capita including robberies and burglaries that his neighborhood had been plagued with over the last year and more, or that most in his neighborhood know/thought they were mostly committed by blacks, well yeah. That’s called knowing the facts. However there’s no indication that he though that every or nearly every black who comes into the neighborhood is a criminal. He hadn’t seen Trayvon there before. His wearing a hoddied didn’t help. His walking around in the rain didn’t help. His apparently checking out the houses as he was walking didn’t help.
Was mestizo Hispanic Zimmerman somewhat racially profiling Trayvon? Most likely. Is that illegal? No. Is that irrational? No. Would he likely have been as suspicious of a black late 20’s guy in a suit and raincoat? No. Is that an irrational distinction? No.
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Sam–
Police do that because they don’t like any defiance and because if in response to even just verbal defiance they rough up the arrested some they want stuff to hold over his head in order for him to not even think about bringing charges against the police, or suit etc.
They do do this more with blacks by the way, but also blacks are far less likely to be deferential and fully compliant to police when being arrested. Black men and often women too tend to easily fly into a rage when they feel they’re being dissed in any way by cops.
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Thank God, we all agree that George Zimmerman should go to jail. The man who shot Trayvon Martin was a racist who ”shot him” in self defense.
@Doug1
But that doesn’t mean that George Zimmerman isn’t a racist.I know you were thinking to look at things from a realistic view but still, racism is a big part of this case. If Zimmerman doesn’t go to jail, it would show how racist of a society Ameirca really is. But then again there is racism in most societies.
And the word coon is very outdated.
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Well, if he DIDN’T say “coon”, what exactly DID he say? I can’t wait to hear the whitesplaining for this one. 🙂
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A “loon” perhaps?
A “moon(cricket) maybe?
A “tune/toon”?
A “prune”?
A “noon”?
A “(ba)boon”?
A “dune”?
A “goon”?
A “rune”?
Given the context. I think we all know exactly what he said.
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Yeah I doubt if Zimmerman even knows that “coon” is an anti black racial slur. He’s only 25 or 28, by different media accounts.
The objectivity around here approaches zero.
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So basically, because he is under the age of 30, he does not know what the word “coon” means. Even though I am under 25 and know exactly what it means? And by your reasoning, I shouldn’t know all that much given my race.
You’re really reaching here and it’s showing badly.
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*hoodie
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You’re black.
He’s not.
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darqbeauty–
That’s a complete distortion of what I’ve said. I’ve said some blacks are very smart. Just a lot smaller percentage that among whites, NE Asians, and the Asian Indians we let into this country.
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darqbeauty–
You’ve probably taken African American studies courses and or read up on whites putting down blacks back in the day (and now in “more subtle ways”) a good lot. He probably hasn’t. It really hasn’t been a current slur for at least 20 years. I’m old enough to know all about it and it’s fading from use largely among rednecks, but he not being black probably isn’t.
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Doug1 Back to the question at hand. If he did not say “coon”, what DID he say?
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And please stop presenting your own view of the word as fact. You are assuming you know exactly what Zimmerman did and didn’t know and that cannot be entertained. I will not be derailed.
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It’s indecipherable to me, and to CNN’s not exactly right wing editors, even though they had their top audio engineer enhance the 911 recording as much as he could.
Could have been MANY things.
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I am under the age of 25 and I am 16 and I definitely don’t know what it means!
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@Doug1
Black on White murder is not common! All types of murder is common. If you don’t like Blacks, how come you comment on here, then?
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What of the many things could it have been, Doug1?
A “loon” perhaps?
A “moon(cricket) maybe?
A “tune/toon”?
A “prune”?
A “noon”?
A “(ba)boon”?
A “dune”?
A “goon”?
A “rune”?
Please give us your opinion on what YOU thought it sounded like.
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darqbeauty–
I have no idea. It’s indecipherable, as I’ve said. Except the clearest (not so clear) part of it was the very beginning and that didn’t sound like a “c” sound.
What part of can’t tell don’t you understand? This seems to be part of the usual reasoning pattern around here.
Emotional and utterly non rigorous or in any way objective thinking up the yin yang.
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So even though a great deal of people hear “coon” or at least something ending with “oon” you claim to hear nothing.
So you apparently are deaf as well as blind to the events at hand. Got it.
Oh, and my reasoning is just fine. My reasoning is only under attack because it does not agree with yours. You are at odds with everyone on this post, yet you come here day after day trying to prove what? And to “inferior” people no lest. I like the way you deflect that observation by saying some form of “it’s not YOU personally”. You say this so much, that it kinds of nullifies your statement of most Blacks being unintelligent. Just where are these masses of unintelligent Blacks? Because you can’t seem to find one on this blog. Just a personal observation. No need to reply. My point my succinctly made.
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my = was*
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Thank you for putting up the poll…but I can’t believe that this question has to be asked. Or rather, I can believe it, but it makes me sad and angry.
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[…] ALSO Abagond: Should George Zimmerman be arrested? All Tied Up and Nowhere to Go: Quote of the day Share this:Like this:Like2 bloggers like this […]
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@ Doug
You, sir, are a disgrace to the human race.
We know exactly the type of man you are. Have some more merlot. That’ll give you the courage to say what you’ve been dying to articulate.
I don’t know if whites feel ashamed when other whites are racist personified, but they should be. You are the default in which they will be judged.
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@Doug
He didn’t say “coons”.
CNN put a one of it’s top audio experts onto enhancing the 911 tape audio, and then several members of their editorial staff listened to that audio, and they came to no consensus that he said “coons”. That’s a figment of blacks wanting that result.
They always get away was a reference to criminals or suspicious characters, not to blacks it doesn’t appear.
From the CNN article:
A top CNN audio engineer enhanced the sound of the 911 call, and several members of CNN’s editorial staff repeatedly reviewed the tape but could reach no consensus.
Okay. So, if the top audio engineer and several members of their editorial staff could not reach a consensus, why should your conclusion be any more viable?
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@Randy
Imagine that you didn’t know the race of any party, or perhaps that you knew the race, and everyone was white or everyone was black, or maybe that Zimmerman was black and Martin white.
I’d consider the evidence in exactly the same way as I am now. Would you?
That is such bullshit, and you know it!
(Z-Zimmerman, M-Martin)
The bottom line is you choose those two articles because they had black suspects. Be a man and admit it. Somewhere in your mind you wanted to post those article links as an attempt to derail from the seriousness of this matter and justify the murder of this youth.
Here’s the truth: You saw those pictures of the criminals. You become delighted that they were black and their victims were white. So, you copied and pasted the links to both on this post talking about a white murderer and a black victim.
You knew damn well what you were doing and here you are trying to act innocent.
Another truth is that you would not and did not consider the evidence in those two cases. The moment you saw those pictures, you declared them “guilty” in an instant. You support their arrests and imprisonment.
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@Doug,
I feel that what you are posting about this event is disgraceful to say the least. The main point is that someone died, and the police did not make an arrest, or take the person in for questioning like they were supposed to. If they had, they could have spoken with Zimmerman at length, and preserved additional critical evidence that related to what Zimmerman said had happened. Justice in America is supposed to be blind, impartial, and fair.
People here have repeatedly explained to you why the events that happened are a travesty of justice. The dogma you are spewing out of your mouth is reminscent of propaganda from some of the white supramacy websites. I am overly tired of some of the pedantic ramblings that I am seeing here that attempt to excuse, justify, and explain away the horrible realtiy of what happened.
This country is headed for serious trouble if this case is not handled correctly. Do not think that people in other countries have not heard about this case or seen video footage related to it. How do you think something like this makes the the U.S look? Nothing can divide this country from without like it can from within. Ultimately, if miscarriages of justice, like the events surrounding this case continue, then you can bet that you will ultimately be faced with, have to live with, a corrupt legal system. Make no mistake about it, it will ultimately affect you. A homeless mentally ill white man, tazed to death in California, a middle aged white man maced to death while in police custody in Flordia, a young veteran assualted and detained while video taping police harrassing two young women. Doug, the examples I provided were all white people. Also, the tensions that result from cases like this in which there is a miscarriage of justice, make it harder for police officers to do thier jobs properly, because of the resulting increased tensions in their respective communities.
We are facing increased militarization of our police departments, increased survelliance, less privacy, and the threat of being arrested, and detained without any rights whatsoever. This is across the board, white, black, whatever. If you continue to refuse to make the connection between an injustice done to someone who is of another race, and the possibility of this injustice becoming the norm for all of society, then I feel for you. Again, the evidence that could have been preserved, Zimmerman’s grass stained shirt, a picture of the injuries he supposedly sustained, his video taped statement of the events. Doug if this had happened, and Travon Martin was white, I would still say that given the events that transpired, Zimmerman should have been arrested, or at least taken into custody, and interviewed extensively.
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Apparently Zimmerman left a voicemail on a neighbors phone. Why hasn’t anyone else heard from him?
http://globalgrind.com/news/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-sanford-florida-speaks-details
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Okay so what we know is this:
Zimmerman started following Trayvon in his car, he called the police and the dispatcher told him not to follow him or get out of his car.
He said “okay”.
Trayvon notices Zimmerman following him, he calls his girlfriend and tells him he’s pulling up his hoodie because he’s being stalked. His girlfriend asks him to run, he says he’s walking faster but he’s not running. He tells her at some point he lost the man.
At some point; Trayvon yelled “Hey Man, Whats your Problem!” and Zimmerman gets out of his car. I assume that was before Trayvon’s girlfriend told Trayvon to run but I’m not totally sure of the exact sequence of events here.
Zimmerman asks him whats he doing here.
The situation deteriotes into a confrontation; I think Zimmerman claims Trayvon hit him in the back of the head didn’t he?
And Trayvon gets Zimmerman pinned on the ground and is punching him.
Zimmerman screams for help to his neighbor watching and his neighbor says he is calling the police.
Moments later Zimmerman shoots Trayvon.
Though there is some debate here, one witness says the two were on the ground apart from one another, and other posters here have mentioned witness’s saying Zimmerman was “on” Trayvon’s back.
It has been said that in a similiar crime involving a black man, the black man was first arrested…..so that does seem to indicate some legal precident for arresting Zimmerman, presuming of course that the police were supposed to arrest the other individual and didn’t act improperly because of that individuals race…..
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Do not think that people in other countries have not heard about this case or seen video footage related to it.
This is true. It’s all over the news here, and it’s not like we don’t have local problems.
How do you think something like this makes the the U.S look?
If it’s any consolation, this isn’t going to change people’s views on the US – people (at least here) already have a bad opinion on the US.
(Ok, so my country isn’t really an US ally, but even the allied countries tend to see the US as a place with plenty of violence. ) So this case is more along the lines of: “this is how stuff in the US happen” than the “OMG, I can’t believe it, I thought US was different than this”.
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Yes, it has been on some of the news here too, mainly about that this has lead to some protesting and that the president commented this case. Not that anyone is surprised about the actual killing, that is seen more as “busines as usual” in USA. Nor it is reported as anything exceptional that cops try to let a white man get a way for killing a black kid.
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Rented Negro and Ayn Rand fan Larry Elder opines:
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Current pro-Zimmerman support:
20.0% Hispanic Americans
10.0% White Americans
9.5% “none of the above”
8.3% Other Americans
4.2% non-Americans
2.2% Black Americans
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More Rented Negro opinion, this from John McWhorter. He is FOR arresting John Zimmerman. He argues that by comparing it to the John White case, which has been brought up here too. John White, a middle-age black man who killed a white teenager in 2006 on grounds of self-defence much stronger than Zimmerman’s, was arrested and later sentenced to two to four years in prison (the governor let him out after five months):
http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/imagining-a-white-trayvon-martin-a-black-george-zimmerman-article-1.1048464
He thinks Zimmerman is not fit for civilized society but turns a blind eye to the enabling racism of the Sanford police.
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Zimmerman should be arrested, period. The kid was disarmed, he was walking to his father’s fiancee house, was carrying candy, was wearing a hoodie and it was raining and he was being followed by this wannabe cop.
How many times my teen son and his teen friends walk around in my neighborhood to the convenience store, sometimes a night…I have done that myself. I feel so much for Trayvon and his family. I hope they get justice.
I am hispanic and I feel that this Zimmerman individual is a shame for all hispanics.
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brothawolf:
Let me ask you something. You seem like an intelligent person. How does one go about understanding a complex issue or constructing a complex argument about an issue?
Generally, this process involves deconstructing the issue into more manageable parts and addressing each in turn.
Thus, an observer who hears a point of debate needs to understand what part that point was referring to, otherwise the meaning of what was heard is lost.
In the case of the articles I posted, the point was to rebut sam’s utterly nonsensical claim that a 17+ year old boy is by nature a “child” who is incapable of being an aggressor and inflicting severe bodily harm on an adult.
brothawolf:
If you read the articles, you’ll learn that one admitted guilt in court, and the other admitted guilt during a prison phone call. Neither is claiming self-defense.
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@ Doug1
It is so hard to take your defense of Zimmerman seriously after hearing what your true thoughts are of Blacks: that they are “dead weight” and you wish there was “a humane way to be rid of them.”
I think those comments were the most truthful that you have made during your time here. I hope everyone gives your current posts the grain of salt that they are worth. Since you are a bit of a bigot.
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Trayvon made a 911 call for help; why did they not respond to his call?
http://abclocal.go.com/wls/video?id=…=syndicate§ion
watch until the end.
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obviously he should be arrested. why hasn’t he? I don’t understand
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Posted by Doug1
“””
You’re black.
He’s not.
“””
I am white, younger than Zimmerman, and I know what “coon” means. The age arguement is absolutely preposterous. Kids of the age of 16 are sophisticated enough to know what “coon” means.
Stop fronting like you don’t pick the position that disfavours the Black person every time.
Remember those FLORIDA (what is in the water down there??) 14 year old white girls that went on their racist rant recently about Black people? You were on that side as well.
Surprise, surprise: there was a case when a Black person was disfavoured as well.
A zebra doesn’t change its stripes. Stop acting like you are neutral in every one of these debates.
Own up to your racism.
Please.
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@ personinmotion
In order for Doug, Randy and Spliff to own up to it, they must first be ready to have everything they have ever known, everyone they have ever spoken to be challenged. And very few people are willing to do that.
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@ Truthbetold
So are you saying that it is to their credit posting here? I have never thought about it that way but i think you might be right. At least they are able to challenge their thoughts by coming here. But nonetheless i think they are infuriatingly ignorant (in every sense of the word).
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George Zimmerman definitely should be arrested.
@doug1
You are so racist that you would find ways to defend the killer. You are nothing but a racist, bigot! Even Personinmotion has more sense than you! There are cool and non racist Whites out there that I respect but you aren’t one of them. No wonder the country can’t go forward with it’s race relations.
Bliff, Doug1, and all the other racist White trolls, there is room for you on Stromfront and you can defend Zimmerman there with your racist behinds!
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@ Abagond
Where was Doug and his ‘ reasoning ‘ with the Ramarley Graham post?
Why is he challenging this one?
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@ Personinmotion
Doug and Randy, (bliff is here for amusement) are here because something we’re saying is nagging at them. It’s called ‘the truth’, but in their reasoning it’s called ‘suspicion’. Coming here over and over to verbally tango with semantics is their way of:
1. Finding out what “the blacks” are up to.
2. Researching how intelligent we really are.
3. Quieting the voices in their heads that maybe, possibly, we could be sorta, kinda be right.
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@Truthbetold
I know right! I agree with you 100%
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Well if by racist you mean that he’s aware that blacks commit a lot more crimes per capita including robberies and burglaries that his neighborhood had been plagued with over the last year and more, or that most in his neighborhood know/thought they were mostly committed by blacks, well yeah. That’s called knowing the facts.
Careful here, because this also suggests premeditation based on his own preconceptions too, though i’m sure that this is not what you meant by this…..
Scratch beneath the surface, the truth will ALWAYS out.
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“Even Personinmotion has more sense than you! ”
@ Adeen
Ouch! LOL. I would hope so! It’s a bit offensive to have it said like that, not going to lie.
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@Personinmotion,
you do know that Bliff also uses the name personinmotion?
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@ Vanishingpoint
People have said that before but that is not me. Maybe that is what Adeen meant. But i am quite different from Bliff and I have a different belief system. We do not see eye to eye on most matters. I think that he is either blind to systems of oppression or blind to other people’s perspectives. I think that maybe he hasn’t experienced what others talk about necessarily but still forms his opinions which is always an error when you do not know what you are talking about.
I think it is a matter of supporting POC and being an ally in the cause of social justice. I hope Adeen sees that along with anyone else.
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@personinmotion,
My guess is that this is Bliff’s attempt to ridicule you and also to silence you, because Bliff sees you as a race traitor and race traitors are hated by ppl like Bliff. I suppose you could change your name again, but it is probable that this will happen again, jacking names for humor and mal-intent are common among race trolls.
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@PersoninMotion
I want other POC to support and rally in case of social justice. I am sorry that I offended you.
You are right and I respect your opinion
@Doug1
I may not agree with you but you have an opinion. You are probably just blind to the fact that your own people are still oppressing my people. I am sorry if I offended you in anyway with my posts but I just don’t agree with you at all. I don’t know you neither should I think you are a racist. Honestly you probably are or not however I think you are more of a person who wants to see things in their own point of view. That is okay but I think everyone is like that in their own way.
i just want George Zimmerman in jail and this case to be over it. If this man is not in jail, well it will show something about America.
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@ Adeen,
Thank you very much. If someone like Doug1 or others were to say the same thing to me i wouldn’t have cared. It is only because i respect your opinion and many of the other posters here that I wanted to ask about that. Your opinions matter to me. =)
Cheers,
personinmotion aka JT (LOL not Bliff)
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@ Adeen
This case will end badly if Zimmerman isn’t arrested.
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@truthbetold
I agree with you. If Zimmerman isn’t ever arrested, it will tell me how racist America truly is.
@Personinmotion
I like your opinions and ideas. Keep on blogging!
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@vanishingpoint
you do know that Bliff also uses the name personinmotion?
No, I don’t ….my ID is Bliff. The name of my gravatar, assigned by the website, not chosen by me, is named personinmotion. I have nothing to do with the gravatar being personinmotion.
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Bliff,…..you can defend Zimmerman there with your racist behinds!
Wow!! I’m still getting beat up on this Trayvon Martin gig even though this is about the 6th time I said he should go to trial on this in order to see what the law has to say.
I have given up on going back and forth on this Martin issue because there’s nothing left to say – the evidence has to come out in court under sworn testimony. I think you guys are wasting your time kicking this around, and around, and around….
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The international column of an Indian newspaper has this as well.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/article3017417.ece
What folks with access to such international news in India think? Doesn’t really matter, they hardly know about anything in the US ‘cept that it’s what the GRE is for and that’s what they must crack to have a rich lifestyle. I assume, to some it’s ‘yeah, stuff like that happens, but there’s no racism in it. How can the god-romancing Americans be racist? They’ve been sending their soldiers to save the world, their system is the most righteous! My relatives live there and they know. I knew a white American lady who was so decent to have smiled at me’, to some it’s ‘yes, that guy maybe was racist, but racism is rare, so many people of different races live there happily, so racism can’t be rampant’, to some it’s ‘of course they’re still arch-racist. Look what laws they had 50 years back. They lynched black men! They banned Paul Robeson! Racism doesn’t just evaporate like that!’
Unfortunately, the first kind seems to be the overwhelming majority. (but comparing with the entire Indian population, that’s a very tiny percentage, as folks who have access to such international news is a minority)
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@abagond
John White, a middle-age black man who killed a white teenager in 2006 on grounds of self-defence much stronger than Zimmerman’s
You’re nuts on this John White case. There was a MUCH stronger case against John White than GZ. In the John White case, several car loads of white kids came to White’s house because they had a beef with this son. The kids stayed out on the street, maybe ventured a little onto White’s driveway, but did not come up the house. White came outside and confronted the kids armed with a gun. Then he shot and killed one. The bloodstains were clearly on the street, not on White’s property.
During this whole time while White was outside neither his wife nor his son called the police. White should have stayed inside the house and just called the police. He could have protected himself and his family if the mob tried to come into the house.
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Yes he should be arrested.
Thankfully people like yourself are not placed in positions of impartial authority.
You really hate blacks don’t you Randy?
I’m not suggesting that Martin was like this at all, as I didn’t know him personally and neither did you, but one shouldn’t assume a young man of that age is a meek and tender flower.
That is low. Why would you bring up such cases if not to compare Trayvon to these other two. Shoot all blacks with hoodies on, a can of pop and some candies as they may be alleged vicious criminals?
Your attitude is callous and indifferent to the worth of Black life and that is putting it mildly!!!
Good ol’ Randy!
Now ask yourself given the verbosity of your response why you won’t even respond. Guilt perhaps?
Because he has to constantly show us negroes how smart he is! We sees it now sah! This is how folk with low self worth react and behave. Anything that disputes their deluded superiority brings this on!
Black on white murder is very common.
What happened to you then. Why aren’t you a victim? If you speak to blacks the way you write here, it’s a wonder you haven’t been. But we all know you are full of shite!
The important thing though is the eyewitness’s report that Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman who was lying on the ground, bloodied, as Trayvon was continuing to beat him up, with Zimmerman yelling for him.
If some weirdo accosted me on the street, I would do the same thing. Fortunately for me, such losers are not allowed to carry guns or weaponry legally otherwise, I could get shot trying to fend the miscreant off. So, you are right about the law in its’ definition, but not as you apply it. Trayvon was in the right to use this law as this unknown man was accosting him. So even if Trayvon did allegedly strike this fool, he was well within his rights to do so. Why would some jackass fearing imminent harm, and, or possible death, get out of his car to apprehend an unknown entity as this Zimmerman claims? He had a gun and was prepared to use it so there was intent to a certain extent.
OneSTDV’
One STD a white racist!!! Good reference!
You’ve probably taken African American studies courses and or read up on whites putting down blacks back in the day (and now in “more subtle ways”) a good lot.
STFU Doug! I was called ‘coon’, spook’, ‘porch monkey’ and jungle bunny’ on a regular basis growing up. Now if you consider that an African American course, I suppose it was, they school of hard knocks. This didn’t occur back in ‘the day either. You’d be surprised at how conversant these racist are with seemingly archaic racial slurs. You, by your own admission are a shining example of this. You are a morally bankrupt and detestable creature.
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@Bliff,No, I don’t ….my ID is Bliff. The name of my gravatar, assigned by the website, not chosen by me, is named personinmotion. I have nothing to do with the gravatar being personinmotion.
___
Thanks for the clarification, Bliff.
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@abagond
More Rented Negro opinion, this from John McWhorter.
Typical liberal black opinion. Every black person who is not an ultraleftist is a Rented Negro, House Negro, Uncle Tom, etc. Is there ANY freedom of thought in the black community!! I think not, from what I’ve seen on this blog and all the others (Grio, Root, etc). Black thought is monolithic….and pretty fascist, i.e., if you don’t agree with the monolith, you are an outcast and something is wrong with you.
John McWhorter is at least intelligent. You couldn’t hold a candle to him, Abagond.
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“Witness: Martin attacked Zimmerman”
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012
If true doesn’t that make the case against Zimmerman much harder to make?
Even if the worst allegations against him are true, that he racially profiled Martin and accosted him in a prejudicial manner, surely that doesn’t take away his legal right to defend himself against serious injury.
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@ Bliff, well if Abagond is so stupid and you disagree with most of the posters, why do you come here? The question these racists never can seem to answer.
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John McWhorter is at least intelligent.
Why? Because he loves kissing white behind? Figures you would admire this kind of negro!
You couldn’t hold a candle to him, Abagond.
Coming from a white racist tard like you that is indeed a compliment! What other kerchief headed negroes do you admire? I know! The ones who love kissing white folks buttocks! Yas sah, turn around so I can kiss your buttock! Right or left one don’t matter!
Is there ANY freedom of thought in the black community!!
Yes there is. You just don’t have to kiss white behind in order to prove you have ‘diverse’ views. I’m not referring to ‘libtards’, left wing-nuts or other ‘Marxists'(your characterizations) either but of actual ‘conservatives’. I don’t trust ideology ridden folk whatever their persuasion, they’re nuts.
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The question these racists never can seem to answer.
Despite their attempts at verbosity, they are too stupid to.
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@Bliff
Do you think George Zimmerman should be arrested? I am just asking you that.
What are you supposed to mean the comment you aimed at Abagond? To tell you the truth, I am not a liberal and I am a young Black woman. I am not saying this to satisfy you but tell the truth. Neither am I a Conservative. I am a independent and I hate labels such as Conservative, Liberal etc and I think that ”conservatives” and ”liberals” from both Democrat and Republican parties had a role in making this country go down the drain economically and I don’t plan on joining the Democratic party. Most politicians are out for the money and power and that is about it. My political ideas are a mixture of Conservative and Liberal ideas is why I consider myself an Independent.
And with I am not going to argue with you on the case of John White. That’s your opinion.
I may not agree with you on a lot of things but I do want to respect your opinion. Opinions matter on this blog as well as feelings.
I hope the other bloggers aren’t upset by my politicial opinions.
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@darqbeauty
well if Abagond is so stupid and you disagree with most of the posters, why do you come here?
Do you understand what dialogue is and the exchange of ideas is? Internet blogs are set up for this very purpose – so one can communicate with others they are likely not to ever come into contact with otherwise. You can hear what I have to say and I can listen you what you have to say. Then we can spend oodles of time and typing insulting each other; just kidding, I mean talking to each other.
Why would anyone want to just talk to people who felt and thought exactly like they do? That’s boring. That’s why I can’t listen to Fox News all the time. I already know what they are going to say!!!
Too many black people think alike. Not so true with whites…we’ve had Communists, Fascists, Republs, Dems for forever. We’re all over the place!
I didn’t say Abagond was stupid. I think he’s just part of the monolith, he’s blind to what’s really going on, just like you.
Time to wash and put up the window screens here in Pittsburgh before it rains!! I’ll answer the rest of you later.
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Do YOU understand that you are exchanging ideas with people you consider beneath you intellectually? To exchange ideas means a modicum of respect with the person you are having dialogue with. You’re not exchanging ideas.
Don’t insult our collective intelligence. Oh, that’s right. Our collective intelligence isn’t all that much.
You are a pane of glass. We can all see right through you.
You’re here so much surrounded by people you think less of, you should be paying Abagond rent money.
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@DarqBeauty
”You’re here so much surrounded by people you think less of, you should be paying Abagond rent money”
Love your statement and you sounded so sassy!
@Bliff
You never answered my question: Do you want Zimmerman arrested?
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Even if the worst allegations against him are true, that he racially profiled Martin and accosted him in a prejudicial manner, surely that doesn’t take away his legal right to defend himself against serious injury.
”
”
”
When Zimmerman stalks and then provokes the exchange, how is it Trayvon’s fault if he defends himself? Honestly.
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I am wondering if the photograph of GZ is from the police, who took it, does anybody know? He is wearing a red shirt in the pic, and I see that damage control is posting new and nice pic’s of him.
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As I’ve said above, if there’s credible evidence that Zimmerman threw the first punch, then I think he should be arrested.
If there isn’t, in light of the other most credible evidence, which clearly shows that Trayvon Martin was seriously beating up Zimmerman, broke his nose, and was continuing to beat him, then under Florida law no I don’t think he should be.
I have seen no such evidence yet. No Trayvon’s gf’s (who clearly isn’t neutral) reporting or the phone conversation she had with him is NOT evidence that Zimmerman began the physical altercation. That’s just her jumping to a conclusion she massively wants to jump to, along with about all the rest of the American black community. What she says she actually heard is equally supportive of Trayvon starting the physical fight first.
The two women hearing witnesses saw none of the fight that eyewitness John saw. They surmised without reasonable basis that the “whining” they heard (cries for help from Zimmerman according to eyewitness John) “had” to have come from the media portrayed “boy” Trayvon, rather than the obese Zimmerman, because he’s a boy. Only he’s not a boy but a 17 yo 6’2″ adolescent football player, who I’m about sure weighs more than the martin family claim of 140. Yeah like when, 4 years ago or more like about all the pictures you supply to the media.
They only became eyewitnesses after the gunshot sound, and concluded from Zimmerman’s kneeling or otherwise being above the dead Trayvon, that he must have been dominant in the altercation all along — well really they concluded that from their liberal orientation and the leftist media whipped up black supporting hysteria over this case.
Trayvon Martin broke Zimmerman’s nose, badly bloodied the back of his head and might have killed him (which can happen with broken noses hit at certain angles), or very seriously injured him if Zimmerman hadn’t shot him. Or he might not have.
If Zimmerman started the physical fight and then was losing it, I don’t think Florida’s “stand your ground” law applies. I also don’t think it should – UNLESS Zimmerman had a reasonable fear that he’d be killed. In any event I think that if Zimmerman started the physical as opposed to the verbal conflict, he should be arrested and tried. However if Trayvon started the physical because he felt dissed, I don’t think Hispanic Zimmerman should be arrested given Florida law. I also think that’s why he hasn’t been, given the credible evidence the Sanford Florida police have received.
As well I support “stand your ground” laws nationwide. I don’t think typically whites should have to endure being seriously physically assaulted without fighting back with potentially deadly force. Hell no.
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Adeen–
This is such a fact free, racially extremely biased, and emotional response it’s amazing. Though really isn’t anymore after spending some time on this site.
Seems to be another huge racial difference.
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@ Doug,
“This is such a fact free, racially extremely biased, and emotional response it’s amazing. Though really isn’t anymore after spending some time on this site.
Seems to be another huge racial difference.”
Then, Douglas, why are you here?
Have some more wine.
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@ Adeen
You don’t owe Doug or Bliff a damn thing.
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@ Truthbetold,
Not to mention the fact that i was the one (not Adeen) who wrote that statement that he quoted. LOL.
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Doug1
Fact a) Zimmerman was armed.
Fact b) Zimmerman stalks Martin when told to stop.
Fact c) Zimmerman shoots and kills Martin.
The mental deficiency associated with white race realism is the only notable difference here.
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@Doug,
Even if Trayvon broke GZ nose, it wouldn’t mean that he should not get arrested. For example, when a woman is being raped, doesn’t she have the right to fend off her rapist? Wouldn’t it be logical that a victim would try by all means possible, to fend off their attacker?
__
I would like to know why the police report does not mention a broken nose or other serious injuries, because the police report says that GZ was treated by the SFD in a patrol car and then brought in for questioning, so… No trip to the ER or ICU?
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personinmotion:
I think this is a reasonable question and a relevant area of inquiry.
If one person verbally accosts another, does the second person gain the legal right to commit serious bodily injury on the first person? I highly doubt it.
However, if the first person physically (rather than verbally) assaults the second person, then battery has been committed, and the second person can reasonably claim that they were defending themselves.
Determining culpability would seem to involve understanding how the physical confrontation began. Simply accosting another person verbally doesn’t seem to grant any legal license to commit physical assault.
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First off, I feel that Zimmerman should be arrested.
Below are some details about the case I assume everyone knows by now,
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/trayvon-martin-case-sponsors-florida-stand-ground-law-george-zimmerman-arrested-article-1.1048164
http://www2.tbo.com/news/politics/2012/mar/24/5/henderson-self-defense-law-sponsor-stands-his-grou-ar-384495/
One of the creators of the “Stand Your Ground” Law doesn’t feel it applies to the Martin case since Zimmerman followed Martin after police dispatchers advised him not to do so.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-death-friend-phone-teen-death-recounts/story?id=15959017#.T25Xm9VhOSo
The Martin’s girlfriend spoke with Martin before Zimmerman finally caught up with him and mentions pushing (who started the pushing I’m not sure) but Martin’s headset comes off and it was reported that a cell phone was recovered from the body and phone records show the girl did speak with Martin five minutes before the police arrived.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/report-witness-claims-trayvon-martin-attacked-george-zimmerman/
A witness that saw Martin on top of Zimmerman.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/17/trayvon-martin-killing-yo_n_1355795.html
A thirteen year old witness Austin McLendon who said he saw a man on the ground screaming for help. The boy and his family believe the screaming was from Martin.
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/15/2696446/trayvon-martin-case.html
A few witnesses mention after the shooting seeing Zimmerman on the Martin’s dead body pinning him down.
From this information, I feel that Zimmerman did in fact pursue Martin without being provoked to do so (Martin wasn’t running which would have seemed suspicious from Zimmerman’s standpoint). IF pushing did occur as the girlfriend mentions it is probable that Martin started to fully defend himself against Zimmerman and could have gotten on top of him and gained the upper hand. This could be why Zimmerman was screaming for help because he believed Martin would beat him up severely and upon seeing no help pulled the gun. IF Martin was hurting Zimmerman so badly I wouldn’t assume he would have time to reach for the gun if his head and face were being severely damaged. However, other witnesses recall running over to Zimmerman and seeing Zimmerman straddle the victim’s pinned down dead body. IF that eye witness account is true then it makes more sense that Martin, NOT Zimmerman, was the one being heard screaming in the 911 tapes. Also, IF Zimmerman did in fact gain the upper hand and pinned Martin down then Zimmerman was no longer in any real danger and could make what Zimmerman did to Martin sound more like second degree murder.
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0782/Sections/0782.04.html
I also feel that Martin was not trying to kill Zimmerman but to get Zimmerman to leave him alone but regardless of what Martin’s intentions may have been Zimmerman used unlawful and excessive force and should be charged with at least 2nd degree murder.
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The other problem with this development is the message that is sent to African Americans: your life is cheap because of you have the wrong ethnicity. African Americans should continue to send a clear message that they reject this racist notion outright and press for justice. US belongs to all its citizens regardless of their skin color.
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@vanishingpoint:
Is there evidence to suggest that that Martin was defending himself against a physical attack?
From what I’ve seen, all that is known publicly is that Zimmerman approached Martin.
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@Randy,
Let’s see, GZ called in an innocent kid for walking while black, follows him against the orders of the police station that GZ called, confronts him, (or approached as you put it) Martin was not only defending himself from deadly harm, he was overcome and murdered.
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vanishingpoint
What evidence do you have that Martin was defending himself against “deadly harm”? For all we know, Zimmerman may have just been a busybody who mouthed off to Martin.
I’m completely surprised that so many people assume without any disclaim of doubt that Martin was defending himself against “deadly harm”.
He may have been doing just that, but how is it that so many people are expressing certainty about an event of which no evidence has yet been released?
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The fact is I’m being reasonable about the facts and about none of you blacks are.
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This forum is a cesspool of anti white black racism.
To an extreme degree.
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It’s ridiculous these racists (who don’t need to be named) are coming to places like these and having the sheer audacity to say blacks are unreasonable and anti-white. Racists are sick in the head. May God have mercy on your pathetic souls.
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yes. he should be arrested. and not only because he’s homely and hard to look at. mostly because he shot an unarmed teen just for being black and alive at the same time…. but we shouldn’t forget the homely part either. that should count for something because the shooting unarmed teen part doesn’t seem to count for much :o/
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@Adeen Danica Mckenzie
You never answered my question: Do you want Zimmerman arrested?
bliff at Sat 24 Mar 2012 at 20:44:39
“Wow!! I’m still getting beat up on this Trayvon Martin gig even though this is about the 6th time I said he should go to trial on this in order to see what the law has to say”
Still didn’t get the screens up.
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@darqbeauty
To exchange ideas means a modicum of respect with the person you are having dialogue with.
I’m not sure this is true. You can still exchange ideas with someone you don’t respect. The exchange should be honest and respecful.
Do YOU understand that you are exchanging ideas with people you consider beneath you intellectually?
Don’t take everything so personally. Just communicate.
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“This forum is a cesspool of anti white black racism.
To an extreme degree.”
No, Douglas. This forum is anti-racist to an extreme degree.
Since whites are the default that with which all others are measured, by YOUR doing, we have the right by the first amendment to voice our pain, disdain, agony, humiliation, anger and resistance to all of your shite.
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PSA: my first response above was before reading any of the comments. when you respond from the email version of the post, your browser skips to the bottom of the page, bypassing the article itself and ensuing discussions.
now that i’ve read the comments tho, i have one thing to say: why are sooooo many people allowing Doug1 to infuriate them? he’s clearly a troll having fun.
the minute someone appears to believe that:
* intelligence is based on race;
* and only white, ne asian (why not all asians, btw? do vietnamese people get less brains from the brain-giving deity than their cousins?), and asian indians (not certain why the redundancy here) get an adequate amt of the brains;
* black people aren’t just charged and incarcerated more often, but they actually commit more crime per capita… cuz they hate to be dissed;
* the mainstream media is overwhelmingly pro-black in general and esp in the reporting of this incident
is the minute everything they say should be unequivocally invalidated as racist bile from a racist and ignored.
reading all the rebuttals makes me sad.
don’t play w/ trolls people! we can’t win with them. they’re objective is to engage and deflect. when we engage it achieves their objectives. and doesn’t unearth anything new. and very like frustrates a whole bunch of people
@Abagond i personally don’t think these very active repeat commenters of yours brings anything to your blog and tho they clearly comment (REPEATEDLY OMG!!!) often, they just repeat themselves endlessly and when your readers respond to them it just muddies the conversation. That you can run your blog how you wish is a given, but personally… as a sometimes reader… i find the comment section a little sad. but this is the nameless faceless internets where anonymous people have great courage. who knows, perhaps w/out these two the comment section would be unpleasant in other ways. *kanyeshrug.
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Zimmerman’s eyes are too close together. Something’s not right about him.
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Doug1,
You keep saying that Zimmermans nose was broken, what article did you get that from? please post.
Has the police reports been release? if so, can you please post that also.
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@bliff
”“Wow!! I’m still getting beat up on this Trayvon Martin gig even though this is about the 6th time I said he should go to trial on this in order to see what the law has to say”
Still didn’t get the screens up”
I wasn’t even here when you posted this. What are you trying to imply? That I am stupid for commenting on here and asking you a question.
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nzaway,
These are our resident trolls and they are protected minorities under the “10th amendment of Abagonds Constitution” preserving the right to sprout out as much BS as possible within a certain post frame.
We readers at Abagonds blog could not properly function if they weren’t here…who else would provide the comedy.
They have no idea how hilarious (and embarrassingly sad) their posts are, but like the good Trolls that they are, “they take a likkin and keep on tickin”
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The fact is I’m being reasonable about the facts and about none of you blacks are.
Take your lithium and call me in the morning!
This forum is a cesspool of anti white black racism.
To an extreme degree.
No more than the toxicity emanating from your posts!
Don’t take everything so personally. Just communicate.
What? To feed into your pathological hatred?
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Looks like a cabbage patch doll.
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@Doug1
The fact is I’m being reasonable about the facts and about none of you blacks are.
Oh please! The real fact is that you are biased, are in extreme denial that you are biased, deny that this is a murder by a racist, and are supportive of the killer while blaming the victim.
This forum is a cesspool of anti white black racism.
To an extreme degree.
And yet, you show up all the time in posts that discusses whiteness to varying degrees. You make the decisions to come here. No one forced you. So, why come to a forum that “offends” you?
Is your ego so massive that you hope to sway the people to your side? Are you bored enough to come to blogs crying for attention to the white race, or specifically, you?
In any case you are apparently the kind of person who would blame women for being raped, or in this case, blame black people for getting killed by whites or a system of white supremacy. That is deplorable no matter how much you excuse it.
I don’t even remember you once expressing sympathy for the murdered teen or his family. You went right on to report how the media got this wrong, how Trayvon threw the first punch, and how this is anything but a racist incident. And you will likely try to argue this point with more of your “blacks are more prone to violence because of science and statistics” rhetoric that you love to say over and over again.
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I believe George should be arrested and baby oiled.
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Good bless Trayvon but I also want to make sure these three little biracial girls who were killed by their mother last week was acknowledged because the story has not been in the news nor a photo of the mom until i found one. You will see why.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2117638/Missouri-campground-deaths-3-children-woman-dead-Blue-Springs-resort.html?ito=feeds-newsxmlhttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2117638/Missouri-campground-deaths-3-children-woman-dead-Blue-Springs-resort.html?ito=feeds-newsxml
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@randy:
“What evidence do you have that Martin was defending himself against “deadly harm”?”
Öööh… Dude, he was, like, murdered?
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Excellent point, Sam. Some of these people are consciously ignorant. It’s quite sad.
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Doug1,
Why is it that whenever people don’t agree with your racist views of them and those like them, they’re suddenly “impartial”? If you want to “communicate” and have a discussion, you should present rational, proven views, not racist dogma that has no real connection to the situation beyond derailing or padding a poor argument.
By the way, the good old lie that “Blacks commit more crime” has been used so much that it has been a get out of jail free card for white offenders. From the “good old days” when white women could fake a rape and have black teenagers lynched for it, to the modern era where a man could shoot his pregnant wife and then have an entire community turn on it’s black residents. Those claims are now considered “eyebrow-raisers” by many law enforcement officers because of how biased and untrue it is. It literally is one of the easiest ways to tell if a possible culprit is lying about his/her involvement. Zimmerman could get off because of that “blacks commit more crime” excuse, but it doesn’t mean it is an accurate view. Especially if it comes from people who thought that BEFORE they saw some slanted post on a slanted site that claimed it was the case. It just proves that there are enough people in positions of authority who think like him, and he’s able to manipulate that.
The true situation is that a teenager was dead. This teenager had a lot to offer the world, and he was slaughtered by a “white” man with a hang up about black people. Trayvon Martin had NO criminal record, was a good athlete and was very smart. Zimmerman had trouble with the law before, has harassed black men in the neighborhood before and thought it was okay to pull a GUN on a 17 year old who was unarmed, with skittles and TEA. If Zimmerman was black and Trayvon was white, you know damn well you wouldn’t be trying to defend him or the views he had. You bring up enough of the “crime statistics” and claims of violence that it’s easy to predict what you would say.
If a white boy walked around with that (even with a hood up) he’d have been free to walk around safely. That is the terrible part. The only thing that got Zimmerman worked up about Trayvon was the race of his victim. Zimmerman’s views are bad, outdated and disproven. And yet, they cost a boy his life.
That is the REAL tragedy. That a teenager is dead over viewpoints that shouldn’t exist anymore. Trayvon’s race doesn’t change that fact, and Zimmerman deserves no defense or excuses for it. I know you view black people (especially ones’ that disagree with you) as inferior beings, that is evident with every post. But you have to at least have some empathy for another human being, and the way that boy was shot, put in a morgue, and left without any word to his worried parents, that is criminal. Like it or not, racist views are what caused that. That and Zimmerman’s apparent instability.
Today, I saw a young black man in my nice suburban neighborhood and said “Hi!”, he said hi with a smile and kept walking home. I didn’t think, “Oh he’s threatening, and the crime statistics I saw on some site says there is a chance he could rob me! I should be ready to shoot him!” Why? Because I see him as a HUMAN BEING who’s trying to live his life and belongs here just as much as I do. If you look at the same man and clutch your purse or feel tempted to follow and pull out a gun, you are not logical or well informed. You are racist, and those views didn’t suddenly come from some statistic you read.
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What really bothers me about this whole Trayvon Martin thing isn’t just that a young, and presumably innocent life was lost, but that the media chose to sensationalize this story instead of discussing the real issue. This would’ve been a perfect platform to discuss the failings of the Black community. Namely the High School drop out rates, the lack of education, the insane crime rates, the gangs, everything. Instead it has devolved into the same old “blame the white man” game, which is tiresome. That isn’t to say that we should simply forget about George Zimmerman. He should have done as instructed and stayed away from Trayvon, but instead he engaged him and in the end a teenager lay dead. George Zimmerman has to face the consequences of his actions. However, we do not know what happened in the moments prior to the gun being shot, so everybody who is calling for Zimmerman’s head (and they were even prior to the 911 call being released, which shows their eagerness for a race based argument) is still out of line.
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@ Big Boss,
Um…
Wait…why would those “Failings” relate? Trayvon was not in school when he was shot, was not in a gang, had no criminal record, no lack of education, etc. And why would people accept YOUR idea of those “failing” that have been proven false time and time again on like every medium imaginable? Why would his being shot by a white man prove failings in the black community? Why would using a boys death to denigrate his race do anything but prove that viewpoints like yours are not only illogical but also vindictive and offer nothing?
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Whites seem to want to make this about Zimmerman or Zimmerman being Hispanic or Stand Your Ground or Trayvon the Thug or even black-on-black murder and high school drop out rates. Anything but the elephant in the room: the Sanford police and how they gave this monster a pass – because the Sanford police saw nothing wrong in his behaviour. Because the police in Sanford (and elsewhere), apparently, are cut from the same racist cloth.
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@ Abagond,
I’ve noticed how many point out the “he’s Hispanic” angle, sort of like how so many play down the whiteness of white dictators when it’s time to discuss oppression (ever notice how Hitler was “Jewish” and Stalin wasn’t “white” when it’s time to go over that?). I’v always wondered what drop out rates or black-on-black murder have to do with an identified “white” man spouting white racist views going on to shoot a black teenager. Wouldn’t that prove white-on-black crime or “Zimmerman the thug” instead?
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@abagond:
You are right. If mr Zimmerman had shot a white kid, even if that kid would have been a real juvenile delinquent, he would be in jail arrested for murder. But the local cops just let a killer walk, just like that.
What really amazes me is this: if one of the Sanfords finest uses his gun no matter under what circumstances, even for a very good reason, he will be interragated and investigated more throughly than this civilian who just shot a teenager. That is really amazing!!
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@Randy, Bliff, Doug, Dave and the like: I dare you all to put on black face, a hoodie over your head and walk around your neighborhood or a gated community after dark. And if you’re still alive come back and report to us what happens to you.
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I’ve seen no evidence that Trayvon was a thug.
However I think it likely that he like most young black males was hair trigger violent about being what he considered dissed, in this case by someone he would undoubtedly have viewed as an Hispanic. (Zimmerman’s mother is Peruvian, and obviously from Zimmerman’s looks, a quite Amerindian Peruvian, making Zimmerman undoubtably mestizo.)
The desire by blacks and the supporting white left to make this an evil white racist murder by a vigilante white man is overwhelming, despite the strong contrary evidence.
CNN in particular has been on a witch hunt. It’s disgusting.
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We are so fortunate that Doug1 is here to provide us with his insight into black males, seeing as there are none on this thread.
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Does no one think this video link by left by poster “G” has any significance?
Clearly the majority view of posters here believe Zimmerman should’ve been arrested and charged. The only ones holding out are Doug1 and Randy (yes you too!)
So it is at least plausible to consider that the bizarre actions of the Sanford Police Authorities, in not arresting (wannabe policeman) Zimmerman, might have something to do with him having some “hold” over them?
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Abagond,
Given the following, isn’t is possible that the Sanford police acted prudently?
Source: http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012
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@ Randy
There are five other eyewitnesses at least one of which does not agree with “John”. In view of that the PRUDENT thing by far would be to lock him up AT LEAST till the police completed their investigation if not till the grand jury comes to a decision on whether the thing should go to trial.
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@ Kwamla
I believe Trayvon’s mother in the “chicken” interview last weekend (that seems so long ago now) said something along the same lines, that the police are acting kind of strangely about Zimmerman.
Blackmail rather than racism could explain their actions. So could his being a blood relation of someone important to the Sanford police. Or it could be a mix and match of any of them.
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Abagond–
WHAT other five eyewitnesses?
The two women saw NOTHING until AFTER the gunshot and Trayvon was killed. They only heard what the described as whining.
As to any self declared “witnesses” that may have surfaced weeks into this becoming the national black and leftist victimfest, i’m of course going to be extremely skeptical about what they have to say. I’m gonna want proof that they are actually eyewitnesses as opposed to liars.
God knows there’s been plenty of super distorted telling of what “witnesses” had to say in this thread, as I’ve said.
I in contrast have been accurate, and have linked my sources.
Unlike almost all of you lot.
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@ Doug1
So in other words you admit confirming evidence and refuse disconfirming evidence.
Way to reveal your perceptual bias.
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How about the next poll: WILL Zimmerman be arrested?
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Further the same “whining”, i.e. high pitched desperate calling for help, was described by the sole eyewitness to the actual fight before the gunshot, as coming from Zimmerman, who Trayvon John said was on top of, pinning him to the ground, punching him repeatedly in the face. Further Trayvon’s father, who listened to a 911 tape where someone was calling for help (“whining”) said that voice was not that of his son.
The black and leftist prejudice and witch hunting on this is enormous, and disgusting. CNN should be utterly ashamed of itself.
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@ Doug1
So in other words you admit confirming evidence and refuse disconfirming evidence.
Way to reveal your perceptual bias.
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If Martin threw the punch, that would likely mean that Zimmerman is not guilty of murder but that doesn’t mean he is not guilty of doing anything illegal or that the police should not have arrested him.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/manslaughter
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@Doug1
Wow………….you really don’t like Blacks! If you don’t like Blacks, why do you comment on here then? And I would love for you to tell how much you dislike and look down on Blacks right in a Black person’s face.
I want Zimmerman arrested!That I all I want and I want for him to go to trial as well. And afterwards go to jail for life or get the death penalty.
And people of all races are the same to me.
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What we have here, is the persistent belief, that the black American has no rights, which nonblack are bound to respect. And what rights they do have are conditional, ie. clothing worn, perception of the nonwhite, etc. The rights of black men (and women) was decided in a decision by Justice Judge Taney, in Dred Scott vs. Sandford (1857), made by Judge Taney.
….”It is difficult at this day to realize the state of public opinion in regard TO THAT UNFORTUNATE RACE which prevailed in the civilized and enlightened portions of the world at the time of the Declaration of Independence, and when the Constitution of the United States was framed and adopted; but the public history of every European nation displays it in a manner too plain to be mistaken. They had for more than a century before been REGARDED AS BEINGS OF AN INFERIOR ORDER, and altogether UNFIT TO ASSOCIATE WITH THE WHITE RACE, EITHER IN SOCIAL OR POLITICAL RELATIONS, and so far unfit that
THEY HAD NO RIGHTS WHICH THE WHITE MAN WAS BOUND TO RESPECT….”
This is where Zimmerman and his supporters appear to feel that they have a case in why Zimmerman should have interacted with Martin in the manner in which he chose.
Several posters, who contend that the court of public opinion is unfairly accusing Zimmerman, seem to imply that there is no historical precedence, on which the behavior of Zimmerman and the Samford police have acted; that this has all occurred in a vacuum. Black Americans are in disagreement with that. Why? Based on the 911 call Zimmerman made prior to the murder, a history of profiling young black males and the ‘cover-up’ and handling of this case by the police. southern history is rife with these occurrences.
In constructivism, there are the four ways of knowing: a priori, authority, empirical and experience. The ones listed below, I found on wiki
1. Empirical is the scientific knowledge.
2. Personal is what you know from lived experiences.
3. Aesthetical is related to creativity.
4. Ethical is dealing w/ issues that there is no black/white answer.
Need to consider society, norms, moral issues, legal, etc.
I’m many years from grad school, so I might have these backwards, but, nonwhites are attempting to look at this through an extremely biased empirical lens. ‘We’ are looking at this from the personal, the ethical, authority, experience and logic/empiricism. By this time, there is no question that much of the evidence (empirical) has been tampered with, and so, there is a huge possibility that ‘we’ may never know what occurred, where Zimmerman and Martin intersected, into young Martin’s death. We have data that leads us up to the incident, and of course what happened after, but not what occurred at the point of contact.
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We should have known this all along: IT IS THE COMMIES!!!!
doug1: “The black and leftist prejudice and witch hunting on this is enormous, and disgusting. CNN should be utterly ashamed of itself.”
Dougie, you think you should be ashamed? I mean, here you are openly supporting murderer and encouraging people to kill children via making handy excuses why they could be killed (dangerous teenagers, wrong clothes, remember??) etc.
I, as a grown up man, do not feel any pity or understanding to any adult who kills children. Nor do I feel nothing but contempt and disgust towards those who advocate such things, like you do.
I see no difference between you and those who argue that pedophiles have rights too because it is only natural thing, just like you argue that it is only natural kill kids if they punch a grown up man on the nose or defend themselves against stalking grown up men with guns or behave badly in any sense, or are suspended for two weeks from school etc.
That is just the way it is. You think you can act like nothing when you have defended child murderer? You think that that stain does not stick on you? Of course is does. You support killing of teenagers if they wear wrong clothes, or particulary, if they are black. That does not make you fine man, a good person. It makes you pretty sick individual.
If you really do not understand why it is not right to kill teenager, you are Dahmer in making. You have the same rationale. You think it is ok to murder someone when you feel like it. You really say here that you think it is ok to kill kids. That is amazing. That is really weird.
I wonder how you would feel if some one would kill your kid, no matter the circumstances. Would you still think that it is ok to murder teenagers? Would still say that if my kid punches grown man on the nose, that man has right to kill my child? If my kid defends himself against armed grown man in the darkness of the night, he deserves to be killed? Would you say that? That is what you have been saying here all the time.
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Correction to : …” nonwhites are attempting to look at this through an extremely biased empirical lens….”
I meant: … NONBLACKS ARE ATTEMPTING TO LOOK AT THIS THROUGH AN EXTREMELY BIASED EMPIRICAL LENS.
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Sam,
We should have known this all along: IT IS THE COMMIES!!!!
Uh oh. The dreaded C word.
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I believe this will be the first civil rights case that has ever been tweeted, emailed, webcam interviewed and utubed, and facebooked in history.
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If someone gets shot, you get arrested guilty or not.
In this case Zimmerman appears very guilty and on all counts the boy could not be wrong. Even if he was not the one screaming. He was not wrong for standing his ground and if perhaps he did get the upper hand, he was still standing his ground.
Zimmerman is clearly racist and should be charged with manslaughter.
Another thing is that stupid people like Gingrich are personally offended by Obama’s remarks, “If I had a son he would look like Trayvon Martin.” Do they think Obama is not personally offended by the police incompetent behaviour and that a young boy lost his life because a man thought he was suspicious because he was black?
Those people live in a white political bubble.
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@ Abagond
I am inclined to believe it will likely be a mix of the two: Blackmail and Racism. All the more reason why a proper investigation should be carried out starting with the arrest of Mr George Zimmerman.
@ Doug1 and Randy
Question for the likes of Doug1, Randy and anyone else of a similar opinion: Given this issue is not going to conveniently “disappear” just yet. What would you propose should be done instead?
(Note: Doing nothing at all is not an option)
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People have to understand that these pseudo-intellectual jokers that come on here, spreading fecal matter around like some tail swishing hippo, are just starved for attention. You are aren’t going to educate them. You are going to make them see the light. They are lost and they are hoping to drag you down to their level, so they won’t be so lonely at the bottom. They’re bottom feeders. When you give them your energy, it weakens you and feeds them. It’s not worth it. Let them starve.
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@Ace
None of these failings have been proven wrong. In fact they’re proven right every single night that the local news is on and every single time there is a story out of Detroit or Chicago or Philly. I mean, you cannot possibly be that blind. I also never said that Trayvon was in a gang, lacked education or that he had a criminal record. I also never said that his being shot by a white/Hispanic man somehow proved anything. My point was just that the criminal over-representation of black Americans is what leads to them being racially profiled or stereotyped as violent. We should react against such profiling, but only as much as you’re willing to react to your own people’s crap. You want to look as far back as slavery to explain the current black situation, but you’re not willing to look at yourselves to explain why your people are seen as a violent group. I don’t believe Black people are violent. That would be illogical, but I see the facts and I know that Blacks are over-represented in crime rates. That is just a fact.
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http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/25/us-mississippi-shooting-idUSBRE82O03N20120325
Where’s the outcry for this Black people? I don’t mean to downplay the murder of Trayvon Martin in anyway, but surely this is tragic as well? The poison of Black on Black crime is killing the Black community, yet you never speak on that. Racism is bad, I agree but so is this crap which imo is even worse than any kind of racism.
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@ Someguy
Your dry wit has been missed! Nice to see you. 🙂
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I don’t mean to downplay the murder of Trayvon Martin in anyway
Sure you do.
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I like De Vega’s post on the issue: Let’s Be Honest, George Zimmerman Killed Trayvon Martin Because Black People are Scary http://wearerespectablenegroes.blogspot.com/2012/03/lets-be-honest-george-zimmerman-killed_25.html
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Typical, you give one sly response and completely ignore the point of a post. Very typical…
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THE WHOLE SANFORD POLICE DEPARTMENT SHOULD BE ARRESTED
THAT ZIMMERMAN WAS HUNTING FOR SOMEONE TO SHOOT FOR SOMETIME UNFORTUNATELY, THAT KID WAS JUST IN THE WRONG PLACE AT THE WRONG TIME REST IN PEACE TM
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@ personinmotion
Thanks. I took a little time away from the “interwebs” for personal reasons. Now, it seems I have a heck of a lot of catching up to do.
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@Oyan
You are right. Blacks have rights but our rights don’t really matter to Americans. It is sad but true.
I say put Zimmerman and the whole police force in jail!
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@ someguywny,
Yes, you do.
The race realist “winners” have been coming out in droves since Trayvon’s murder.
They have no shame.
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Doug1, Randy, and Bliff : You’ve given me a wonderful research idea!
Hate and Fear as Emotional Hijackers and Inhibitors of Neural Plasticity:
A Biopsychological Approach in Understanding Racism
Thanks!
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I’ll wait to hear what the investigators have to say, but what I’ve read so far about this case leads me to believe Zimmerman engaged in legitimate self-defense.
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@ Big Boss-
Humans murdering other humans remains tragic regardless of race. But I will tell you this, where I am from, there IS black outrage over black on black crime. Don’t be fooled.
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http://ceasefirechicago.org/
From the site, “CeaseFire uses a public health model to stop shootings and killings. We combine Science and Street Outreach to track where violence is heating up and then cool the situation down.”
There is also the “Stop the Violence” Campaign. I’m from Chicago so I only know mostly about those two. They receive almostno media attention but are addressing violence in different communities within Chicago. The news channels are not the only sources on everything that is happening in a neighborhood or community.
–On Trayvon Martin’s case
http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/318739/20120323/trayvon-martin-case-911-tapes-george-zimmerman.htm
Some good points are brought up in the above articles such as the importance of the forensic evidence.
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2012/0317/Trayvon-Martin-911-tapes-Who-screamed-for-help-before-shot-rang-out
Mentions the father, upon hearing a cleaned up version of the audio of the shooting being sure that he heard his son screaming (this is after the initial reports stating that the father believed it was not his son).
Zimmerman was following Martin, this is clear in the 911 call and Martin’s girlfriend statement of Martin mentioning being followed.
Zimmerman mentions getting into a fight with Martin and Martin’s girlfriend mentioned hearing a scuffle.
Those things are clear, what isn’t is who started the scuffle and what caused Zimmerman to feel that he needed to shoot Martin. But in the end Zimmerman used excessive force. He had more weight on Martin and easily could have gotten Martin on the ground if he needed to. Zimmerman had a gun which did not have to be fired in order to stop Martin from hitting him.
That type of screaming on the 911 call is not one for a person just getting beat up, that was someone who saw a real threat towards their life and that could only have been the person who had a gun pointed at them, Martin. But that is just me speculating and without the forensic evidence a clear call cannot be made but one thing is clear to me and that is Zimmerman killed Martin and it should fall under manslaughter or second degree murder.
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Abagond—
Who are these other eyewitnesses? I know of three witnesses only one of whom was an eyewitness to the fight before the gunshot, plus Tayvon’s girl friend who was on a cell phone with him, but NOT all the way until the shooting.
The one eyewitness to fight says that stuff that I’ve detailed up thread, and linked, but what it amounts to is that Trayvon had Zimmerman pinned down on the ground on the grass and was repeatedly punching him in the face, while Zimmerman was shouting “help me, help me” repeatedly.
The two women earwitnesses to the events before the gunshot and of the gunshot, heard someone they described to CNN’s Anderson Cooper as “whining” who they concluded “had” to be the child Trayvon, probably due to all the child photos of 6’2 athletic football 17yo high school senior (said by police to be 160lbs) that the Martin’s black attorney has spun the media into accepting as “current enough” and into running. (Which is appallingly biased.) However Trayvon’s father told the media the rather high pitched voice shouting for help wasn’t that of his son, and two of Zimmerman’s friends one of whom is now an attorney spokesperson for him and the other of whom is black, says it was that of Zimmerman. (Actually both women were eyewitnesses after the shot, but I’m not sure that both heard the shouting for help described as whinning. I know that
Trayvon’s girlfriend saw nothing but did speak on the phone with Trayvon before Zimmerman talked to him, and when he did but only through the first exchange, after which the cell phone call ended on Trayvon’s side. Actually Trayvon began the verbal exchange. He said “why are you following me?” and he then replied “why are you here?”
She concluded from that that Zimmerman “must have” been the first to get physical, but that’s not at all convincing to any remotely fair minded person. Trayvon would very likely have ended the cell call if he was getting into a heated argument or if he was the one about to first get physical.
So who are these fourth and fifth “witnesses” other than John you’re claiming? And when did he or she come forward, and to whom? And how about some links, like I provide when first presenting evidence?
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This is what Trayvon really looked like last February as opposed to when he really was a child which the MSM has endlessly run, or the closest I know of to it. The pic in the upper left corner is the one in which he looks the oldest so presumably is the most recent. They reportedly come from his facebook.
http://trayvon.tk/
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The world we live in–
Raciss, raciss, raciss.
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@Abagond: “Whites seem to want to make this about Zimmerman or Zimmerman being Hispanic or Stand Your Ground or Trayvon the Thug or even black-on-black murder and high school drop out rates. ”
This is the kind of statement that is simply unhelpful, nor valid to any degree by the results of your very own poll. “Whites” overwhelmingly agree that Zimmerman should be arrested for this killing, so why the statement?
In any case, a better poll question would be “should he be charged and tried for the killing” the answer is a definite yes. Right now all we know is what the media and rumor have reported, and this makes Zimmerman look very guilty. In court (hopefully) the truth will come out and justice done. The trial should probably not be in that part of Florida. It’s hard for me to imagine that Zimmerman can claim self-defense when HE sought out the confrontation.
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Doug1,
Really? Who cares what pictures he took? No one should really be claiming it’s more “justified” to shoot someone IF they take pictures a certain way. Everyone on the web would be doomed at that point if that were true. Stop trying to portray Trayvon as a “thug” to justify his shooting, when the man who shot him had a criminal record and straddled him with the gun (after shooting him) until he died.
Also, “reportedly”? I read this website….it’s kind of slanted, and it’s called “Justice for George Zimmerman”. Why don’t you use facts that aren’t from reportedly right wing news outlets or people who have entire sites up about supporting Zimmerman (oddly BEFORE he’s even charged…). Also, the whole “oh and the white house is worried about Florida?” sentence just showed the sort of person who’s running this.
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Sigh, it’s stuff like this that snuffs out any slight optimism I may start daring to entertain. The tragedy is one thing, but the attitudes surrounding it are truly depressing. It reveals something fundamentally broken in the white psyche that causes many to perceive POC as extremely threatening even when they (whites) possess tangible advantages. Indeed, the whole scenario is a microcosm of society as a whole so white reactions shouldn’t be surprising. Zimmerman’s actions are perfectly reasonable to them as long as the victim is black. Because irrational fear of black people is rational to white people.
That so many people can consider a claim of self defense on Zimmerman’s part credible says a lot. Zimmerman is in a vehicle, Martin is on-foot. Who has the greater capacity to flee? Zimmerman is armed, Martin is not. Who has the greater capacity to kill? Zimmerman is 250 pounds, Martin is 140 pounds. Who has the advantage in a tussle? Yet, given these facts, a 28 year old white man can stalk and kill a black teenager, claim self defense, and evade criminal charges.
Only with racist logic can one fail to see something wrong with this picture. If Martin were white this would have been a confusing and outrageous tragedy. “Why?” and “How could this happen?”, would be the words of everyone’s lips. But he’s black, so it “makes sense”: black people are automatically dangerous and suspicious in the eyes of white people. Instead of being punished, Zimmerman finds himself in a place of white solidarity and understanding. It “makes sense” to me too, but that doesn’t mean it’s right. Because the sense only comes from understanding, at a conscious or subconscious level, that racism in America is the norm.
How sad.
My heart goes out to this young man’s family.
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Ace–
I said reportedly in to be upfront and fair. I haven’t checked Treyvon’s facebook.
Feel free.
But that’s what that site said.
My point about the pictures isn’t that some of them or really just one of them on the site I linked looked kinda thuggish. I don’t put much credence in that without more either.
The pic I pointed out was the neutral but not at all little kid looking one in the upper left hand corner at that link, because he looks oldest in that one, and thus it’s likely to be the most recent one.
It puts a lie to the family’s PR that this was a slight little kid looking 17yo, as does his being a senior in HS athletic 6’2″ football player.
Look the likely reason the two female ear witnesses to the physical altercation were sure the “whining” voice (shouting, pleading “help me, help me”) had to be that of “victim from the get go” Trayvon was likely due to all the extremely misleading pictures of him from years ago that the Martin family lawyer has supplied to MSM and which they’ve been willing to run endlessly as “good enough”. Propaganda spin and not rejected by the complicit MSM. Incredibly biased is what that is.
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@ Big Boss,
Except for YOU are the one who brought up those failings in regards to Trayvon’s case, not me. In fact, you prove my point by even implying that I am black just due to the fact that I agree with many of the black people on this blog. That proves that you aren’t really interested in much beyond trying to complain about black people.
Also those have been disproven time and time again, however racists sort of have a hard time following any real facts at all. That’s why they still believe crap that was proven wrong a long time ago. No matter what black people do, you would be out here with a “list” of what they’re doing wrong. Here’s a thought: Instead of going off of those statistics why don’t you just take the word of the people who actually are black people? I think they could know better about what the “failings” are than you would. In fact, if you actually stopped throwing out statistics or news links about it you might actually take the word of one of these black people when they say that they’re upset about black on black crime, although they know personally that the media likes to exaggerate how bad it is when its time for a boogeyman. It’s over represented due to a racist system that benefits from that caricature, not because of black people. In fact, black people just might be outraged over the fact that a white guy used his race as an excuse to be able to play judge and executioner over a teenager. You know, that’s pretty understandable, since we have a history in the US of going on anti-black witch hunts because a white guy (or woman) feels insecure. And since Trayvon was a human being, not a rabid dog, you shouldn’t be surprised that people are outraged over him being shot down like one.
Finally, no one here brought up slavery. In case you haven’t noticed, racism didn’t END with slavery and sure didn’t end when black people were FINALLY given at least some legitimate citizenship and semblance of equality during the 60’s. Lynching sure didn’t end. Bringing slavery up here to try to point out some “hypocrisy” in people being upset over a teenager’s death is just irresponsible and does nothing but make you seem like a ranting, raving racist with a chip on his shoulder. Sorry.
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https://www.facebook.com/people/Trayvon-Slimm-Martin/1353307542?sk=wall
The link to the young man’s facebook page. Yes he looks a bit older but I wouldn’t assume he’s a “gangsta” considering he has NO CRIMINAL RECORD.
Also that site (http://trayvon.tk/) mentioned that Martin would have needed to jump the fence. I would assume that if he didn’t have family that were residents of the gated community. If he needed a key they could easily have given him one before he headed for the store so that was an unjustified and biased statement to try and question Martin’s moral character.
They focus only on one witness that saw Martin on top of Zimmerman and does not mention any of the other witnesses including a 13 year old who was walking his dog and saw a man on the ground screaming for help. That is also fairly biased. There is a lack in credibility when a news source is biased. True journalists provide fair and unbiased news from all sides of the story.
I do dislike the younger photos of Martin because they are a bit misleading. However, the question is really was Zimmerman justified in killing Martin and as the current evidence stands I will have to say no.
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@ Doug 1,
But why check his facebook at all? What does that have to do with him being shot? Was he on facebook talking about casing a joint he was going to hold up? No. What does a “kinda thuggish” picture have to do with him being shot? Do you know how many people of all races take pictures and poses like that? Does that mean that they should be shot?
Lie? Family PR? They would know more about their kid than someone’s interpretation of his supposed “Facebook” pictures. My brother is the same height . His voice isn’t deep because of that, and I’d be damned if someone tried to tell me what he looks and sounds like. Also, people don’t all scream with deep voices when they’re scared and begging for help. Why all of the effort to try to prove the family as lying? Why all the effort to try to find some way to justify someone thinking he was dangerous? Why not just accept the fact that Zimmerman, a man who has a history of racial bias against blacks, followed the kid, assumed he was a crook (like he claims in his calls to the dispatcher) and shot him? The same witnesses also say they saw him straddling over the teenager’s body and providing no attempt to resuscitation him, he didn’t even turn him on his back. He chose to shoot him for racial reasons, not because he had been forced to.
The only thing that is biased is the immediate choice of people to start attacking Trayvon’s past and family when neither of those played a part in why he was hunted down by a man and shot. You seem less likely to take their word that he had no criminal record and did good in school, why is that? For all you know, the picture used by the family was the most recent, he could have a babyface. I mean, that website you linked seemed like quite the cherry picker when it came to images to choose. And even if he does look slightly older now, who cares? How does that justify him getting shot? It seems more like you are trying to find a way to question the motivations of the family or their legitimate grief, would you do that if the colors were reversed?
I wouldn’t use a site that criticizes the white house on Obama talking about the case making him think of his daughters and is called “Justice for George Zimmerman” as a source.
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@Doug
Your link trying to paint a picture of Trayvon as thug didn’t work for me, he is still a kid and you obviously don’t have kids on facebook
However, your link does state that Zimmerman’s father is a retired Supreme Court Judge from Virgina, so more pieces of the puzzle are falling together.
Your article didn’t link to the police report where GZ had a broken nose and was treated at a hospital, the police report I saw only mentions that GZ had blood on his nose and was treated by SFD in the police car.
Also, the witness you are referring to is not new, I read his statement quite a while ago, who cares? Witness statements do not carry the same weight as recorded 911 and other phone records, ballistics. ect. People get confused about what really happened, just ask any first year law student….
Oh, and the assumption by your link that Trayvon must have jumped over a gate to gain entrance is further proof that you need to have your head examined.
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Does anybody know why Doug’s link is mirrored?
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@ Joshua
MOST commenters know that I am not God, that I am speaking from personal experience. And those who speak English while not being defensively white also know that “whites” does not mean ALL whites.
Also, I am not just talking about pro-Zimmerman whites but even those who want him to be arrested. MOST whites do not talk about the racism of the Sanford police or the police in general. THAT is my point. I assume SOME whites have, but in MY experience they are far and few between.
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The world we live in–
Raciss, raciss, raciss.
You’ve just got to love when bigots imitate Black vernacular speech while claiming a lack of bias.
Doug, crawl back under your rock, you louse.
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Forgive me Abagond if this seems off topic, but for those who are angry or griping about how black people don’t have the same outrage over black-on-black crime as we do for white-on-black crime, please read this:
In other words black people care when one of our lives is taken no matter what the color of the murderer is. Period.
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1. This line of argument about black-on-black murder is extremely insulting. It says, in so many words, that blacks do not mind being murdered by other blacks, which is completely nuts.
2. As to high school drop out rates or out-of-wedlock births, that is an utter derailment.
3. Trayvon’s Facebook pictures: The police should go through everyone’s Facebook page and bring in everyone who looks “thuggish” and shoot them dead. Because those are the real criminals. The world will be so much better on the day after. /sarcasm ended. Or as baddominicana on Tumblr put it:
http://baddominicana.tumblr.com/post/19848033457/if-i-get-shot-up-for-existing-make-sure-to-show
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@Big Boss
The poison of Black on Black crime is killing the Black community, yet you never speak on that. Racism is bad, I agree but so is this crap which imo is even worse than any kind of racism.
I’m going to assume that you didn’t care about black-on-black crime in the first place. So, why are you NOW concerned?
You’ve seen an explosive outcry from the black community over this and other similar forms of injustice on black people that the media covers. However, the media vastly ignores large examples of the black community trying to stop black-on-black crime.
The link that I provide should prove that there are many black people who care about black lives no matter who decides to take them. Whether it’s a white-hispanic guy from the suburbs or a black dude from around the way, black people are tired of seeing the lives of their own taken like they were nothing.
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Well from over all, I truely believe george zimmerman should be arrested for first degree manslauter.people are wondering if zimmerman made a rcial statement. Well he said in the 911 tape he said. Quote- they allways get away. NOW COME ON FOLKS. What if he was a mexican would he say that about his own race. What about a preety black girl whereing a hoodie or a white person. I don’t think so. No I believe zimmerman is a coward to even not to listen to the 911 tape to stay away. If it was me i would of listened to the athorities to stay away. Do not approch but zimmerman disobayed the athorities took the law into his hands and caused the situation to get out of hand. Zimmeman killed the young boy. It’s to bad that zimmeman had a gun that he in no wise should have had. What if zimmerman hd a baton woud he had beat the kid to death. I wonder. If the cheif of poice n was not a coward to step down in which i would face the music. It is known that fear sets in when you are being stalked and you will fight back
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100% of the nation wants zimmerman tried.
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i knew this was a fake news story when they said he was wearing a hoodie and of course they release the 911 call with the same white mail voice used in all the other 911 fake news story calls.
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Shondis,
I’m confused, are you saying that the entire story is a fake?
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@Abagond
That is a dodge. You can’t even say “most” or “many” whites in this case, only a “very few” whites by your own poll are defending Zimmerman yet your implication is much larger. Most “people” I know think he should be tried as a criminal, as evidence it is a major topic on FB right now to see that Zimmerman sees the inside of a courtroom. The racism of the Florida police is a MAJOR part of those conversations. You didn’t think all this outrage and media attention was occurring in a vacuum of white interest, did you?
There will always be a few who won’t agree with anything including the color of the sky. What I find incredible is the Hispanic response to your poll.
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Abagond:
I think the issue with the pictures has to do with the MSM narrative that Martin was a doe-eyed naif who couldn’t have possibly been culpable in engaging Zimmerman in a physical altercation.
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@ Joshua,
Again, why are you so offended at Abagond but not Doug1 or Randy? They’ve said much worse about the black population as a whole in this thread than Abagond has ever said about the “many” white people who support Zimmerman or who are at least trying to make him seem less culpable.
@ Randy,
But why is it your responsibility or anyone elses to prove something about Trayvon? Would you be taking this stance if it were the picture of a doe eyed white teenage girl who was murdered? Would you be trying to imply wrongdoing on the part of the victim’s family or trying to imply that the victim should share some of the blame? Likely not.
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@ Doug and Randy
We know you hate us but for God’s sake, show some respect and get his name right. It’s Trayvon. Not Treyvor. Not Trevor.
And stop with the black street, ghetto, jazz- era Ebonics.
It’s insulting and you’re fooling anymore.
Jive-ass mofo.
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***not fooling anyone anymore. Damn! Now I’m angry***
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@ Someguywny: “You’ve just got to love when bigots imitate [what is commonly perceived (confirmation bias) and purported to be black American vernacular speech ] while claiming a lack of bias.”
I do!!! Willfull ignorance at its best!
Rigid subscription to underlying beliefs/assumptions precludes rational discussion with folks like Doug1; nevertheless, I admire the tenacity of those who respond to his hate and fear-based repetitive rantings.
Peace and Good Health wishes for ALL (yup, you too Doug1, Bliff, and Randy….et al.)
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Why am I saying this another faked news story? Because it is one of the kind of news story they make up for tougher gun control laws to put in place. It has all the elements of a phony story. People are researching the pic they are using for the “shooter” to see if it has been used before. Also the pic of “Treyvon” is being researched. People are tired of being lied to by media. Also, along with the gun control aspect, I think want this to be used to cause friction between blacks and hispanics.
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i just noticed that pic of zimmerman has sanpaku eyes!. This IS a goverment put together story!!
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@ Shondis,
No, it’s true. A real teenager (NAMED TRAYVON not TREYVON”) was shot and killed. It’s not a fake, stop disrespecting him, his family, and friends by pulling that. It’s not cute. Trayvon and his family do not exist for you to prove some point about the media or for you to “research”. Also, why would they be using it to make a rift between hispanics and blacks when Zimmerman has identified as white and the media has called him white? Wouldn’t they have immediately played up the “hispanic” angle if they just wanted to cause a rift?
Anything to make blacks out to be liars, right?
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@ Shondis,
Wait…government put together story? What proof? Why would they do that? Are you kidding me?
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oooh, sanpaku eyes, must be something very mystical and exotic…obviously Shondis is a mentally challenged Doug in disguise, batten down the hatches.
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@ Vanishingpoint,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanpaku
I guess that’s what they’re talking about…
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@Ace,
I guess so…
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@ vanishingpoint,
I had to look it up to know what it is, but it still doesn’t make sense in regards to why the story has to be “fake”.
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I literally laughed out loud. Out loud, I say!
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Are you kidding me?
Nope ‘Shondis’ isn’t. The voices in ‘Shondis’s head are telling he/she to type those posts.
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@Ace
It seems to me that others have already said everything that can be said about doug1, and to a lesser extent Randy. In the time I’ve been reading I don’t think I’ve ever seen anything by doug1 that I agree with, if that helps. I can’t get a read on what Randy actually thinks, as everything he writes seems to be in a style with no conclusions – he tries so hard to seem balanced he merely seems phony. Abagond writes many things I agree with, but at times writes things that make me wonder if multiple people are penning his posts. YMMV of course.
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http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/870916/why_isn%27t_the_gun_nut_lobby_saying_trayvon_martin_should_have_been_armed/#paragraph4
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@ Joshua,
Yes I see, but that doesn’t explain why you take issue with Abagond’s statement about “whites” but not their statements about blacks. I think it seems a little problematic when you come off like your more mad about Abagond than Doug1 and Randy, especially when they try to blame Trayvon’s death on himself. They definitely are proving Abagond right about a lot of what he says, and shouldn’t be viewed as individuals when the people here can’t have that same respect from them. They sure as hell don’t mind making blanket statements about all black people here which is a lot more problematic than saying “many” whites support Zimmerman.
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@ Abagond
This might be late but here goes: Zimmerman’s father is a retired judge. That explains the lack of charges. And I think the area of Florida has strong KKK activity and KKK in law enforcement, big surprise right?
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I believe Shondis. who has sanpaku eyes in real life? NOBODY!! this pic of a “zimmerman” is a fraud just like the entire story. I see yall have researched sanpaku eyes, now research FAKED NEWS STORIES!! and no we are not disrespecting his family because there is no such person. all the family you see are actors. look at the “mother” she aint even a good actress.
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@beccadabish:
Yeah, I saw well known Hollywood producer in one of those news clips. I bet Sanford is just a movie set and all those cops are actually extras hired from cafees around the Wiltshire boulevard. There is no other reason why one well known Hollywood director can be seen in that area so often with a film crew. Also no other reason for the movie web site and production commercials in Cannes for next summers festivals. Also why else they would have resurrected John Wayne, Bogie and Brando. I also saw Elvis nearby. This must be just a bad movie, right?
Duh…
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@ Beccadatbish,
If you read the same article, it lists many people who do. Marilyn Monroe and JFK are considered two of them, so is James Dean. Do they not exist?
Yes you are disrespecting them. Again, they do not exist for YOU to glorify your paranoia or anti-media propaganda. You can’t just will black people out of existence because you want to, especially when you have facts staring you in the face that you refuse to acknowledge. You do realize that this happens a lot to black teenagers right? Are they all fake too? Or is it only fake because you are used to black teens being killed without any sort of media attention?
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Its a reality that, unfortunately, needs someone white to acknowledge before most Black or white people will pay attention. I’ve actually documented in detail much of the evidence, and more, she cites.
http://kulturekritic.com/?p=2601
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I do have to say I’ve seen black artists do things in honor of Trayvon.
On Sinead…Well…it started well versed, especially the part on just how much self-hatred is tied to hating black people. It then reduced itself to the typical white person telling black people how to live and “better” their situation stuff. Black youth don’t need a lecture from their “mother” Sinead on what their situation is, reducing them to a blanket group who is dependent on rap, guns, drugs etc. is just as bad as if a racist said the same thing.
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joshua:
The ambiguity in my commentary reflects the perceived ambiguity in the known facts. Sometimes the most accurate conclusion one can draw from the available evidence is that a concrete conclusion cannot be drawn.
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Ace:
My desire is for a more rational world. To the extent that individuals and groups (such as the media) create and disseminate falsehoods, I object. Fallacies, irrationalities, and con jobs should be opposed wherever found.
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@ Joshua
His only desire is to be an apologist for white racism by engaging in his patented and warped version of “The Devil’s Advocate”. Which at the end of the day is nothing more than him consistently attempting to rationalize examples and instances of (mainly) non-blatant white racism whenever they arise. Whenever he posts, he makes sure that he dismisses these instances by trying to whittle them down and diminish them, or intentionally misinterpreting the meanings of simple words in order to engage in long derailing Strawman Arguments and Red Herrings. All the while making darn sure to never bluntly give his own personal stance on an issue, in order to keep up his facade of neutrality up.
It’s not that hard to pick up on after a while, and it becomes as noticeable as overt racism.
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How about this?
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2006-01-29/news/GUARDS29_1_sanford-ansley-security-guards
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@ Randy,
And yet you only seem to view things said by black commentors (or in favor of black people) as something you should object to. You show no objection to bias, blanket statements, ad hominems and con jobs when they are pulled by white people, especially on this blog. You fail to point them out no matter how ridiculous they are, and you try to play devil’s advocate. You aren’t consistent enough to play the role of the “rational party”.
@ cemmcs,
It all happens the same way.
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It’s a dang shame that people are circulating pics to make Martin look like a thug that aren’t even him.
For example, that picture with the kid with his shirt off, sagging his pants with his middle fingers up? That’s of a Trayvon Martin that is from Savannah, GA. http://www.facebook.com/people/Trayvon-Martin/100001791912868
The deceased is THIS Facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/people/Trayvon-Slimm-Martin/1353307542
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@Randy
Your ambiguity is passive aggressive, not neutral.
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Abagond–
You have yet to link to the five witnesses other than John, at least one of whom you say contradicts John.
The only one I’m aware of who appears to be contradicting John was NOT an eyewitness until AFTER the gunshot, a good while after in fact since she stayed on the 911 call a while after the gunshot and said she was hiding herself and I believe her son from the shooter for a while. What she describes is Zimmerman standing over Trayvon, which lead her to (wrongly) concluded that he’d been the dominant one the whole time.
What she heard was what she described as whining or shouting — what John called shouting for help — which she concluded days or weeks later “must” have been coming from the boy because it was rather high pitched. This was probably after seeing all the media pictures of a little boy that the Martin’s lawyer spun to the press. However Trayvon’s father said the voice shouting for help on a 911 tape wasn’t that of his son, and two friends of Zimmerman have said that that was the voice of Zimmerman.
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@ Randy
You don’t desire a just world. You desire a white supremacist world. You just think we’re too dumb to recognize that.
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@ Porkins,
Dang, they didn’t even think enough of the boy to circulate his actual facebook? They just chose a black kid named Trayvon, ignored the info and just used that. Let’s see them explain that.
@ Joshua,
People often confuse one for the other.
@ Truthbetold,
To many people, a just world and a white supremacist world are one in the same.
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To me, bottom line, even if Trayvon wasn’t an angel at school and even if he began to beat the holy sh* out of Zimmerman, Zimmerman was told to not pursue the young man. And, I’m sorry, if I was a 17-year-old boy and some weird dude was following me in a car for reasons unknown I would turn on him and fight him with all my might as well. For all Trayvon knew, this guy was the next Jeffrey Dahmer. I mean, co’mon. Weird guy following you in a car not a cop or anyone with authority that you know of?! Once Zimmerman disregarded the dispatchers orders and went in pursuit of this kid who was doing nothing but trying to get back to his father’s place, he shattered any claims to “standing his ground.”
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A quote by Bishop Desmond Tutu:
“If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality.”
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@Porkins
TY so much for catching that! That site trying to demonize Trayvon had pictures that I felt weren’t of the same person. You have proven that assumption.
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From Socialist Worker:
http://socialistworker.org/2012/03/22/raising-our-voices-for-trayvon
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I’m gonna repost here what I posted on another blog. It’s a summary of all the credible evidence I’m aware of (and I’ve done a lot of digging) bearing on whether Zimmerman is likely guilty and therefore should be arrested. If anyone has contrary evidence and not just someone’s opinion and/or spin I’d genuinely like to hear it. I’m trying for the truth here. I have no vested interest in seeing Zimmerman not arrested if he’s likely lying about what happened and guilty.
************
How the media can keep spinning this in favor of Zimmerman’s being arrested is just amazing to me. Well they whipped up a furor and aren’t backing down.
The following is the sum total of the credible evidence that I’m aware of and I’ve done a lot of looking.
There was only one eye witness to the fight, John. He saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman straddling him punching him repeatedly in the face creating a bloody face, while GZ screamed repeatedly for help. John then locked his porch, ran upstairs to call 911 and while on the way heard a shot, then saw Trayvon lying to GZ’s side, face down, apparently dead. He didn’t see how the fight began. GZ says he was panicked that he’d be killed. The screams are on a 911 tape and are screams of panic.
There is no credible evidence that contradicts that. That’s what GZ said happened from the point where John saw and heard what happened onward. Further the physical evidence which the police found at the scene support this account. GZ’s face and the back of his head were bloodied. He had grass stains on his back and his back was wet (the grass was wet). Trayvon had no face or other injuries other than the gunshot wound.
A woman witness thinks she heard (not saw) things which contradict this and was quite vehement about that to CNN but she’s mistaken in her conclusions, not in what she heard. She heard the rather high pitched screams which she assumed must have been from the “little kid” Trayvon yet his father in listening to the 911 tapes said that was not the voice of his son. Two of Zimmerman’s friends one of whom is black said that was his voice. The woman witness also heard no “sounds of fighting” other than the screaming so assumed there must have not been a fight before GZ shot Trayvon. That’s also an unwarrented conclusion. The sounds of punching are a lot less loud than that of screaming.
As for how the fight began, Zimmerman says he followed Trayvon in his SUV then got out of it to talk to him. The 911 operator is not a cop and has no authority to tell Zimmerman not to follow TM. In fact he didn’t, he said “we don’t need you to do that”, I think largely out of fear that GZ might put himself in danger not knowing he was armed. TM’s girlfriends says she was on the cell phone with TM just before the fighting began. She heard TM demand of GZ “why are you following me?” to which GZ responded “what are you doing around here?” Both repeated the same questions probably in TM’s case in a more heated way. Then TM ended the cell call.
GZ says as soon as their conversation started getting heated, he turned to go back to his SUV to avoid a fight. He was then punched by TM and knocked to the ground. Then GZ gives the same story that eye witness John tells except he adds that TM repeatedly bashed his head against the sidewalk first, maybe before John started watching after he heard GZ’s screams. The blood on the back of GZ’s head backed that up.
I have seen NO credible evidence that contradicts GZ and eyewitness John’s accounts of what happened, or TM’s girlfriends bit of evidence either. Yeah she concluded that GZ “must have” started the physical fight because he ended the cell call abruptly but that’s just as consistent with him getting mega pissed about being he thinks profiled and “dissed” and punching GZ first. There’s actually no evidence that GZ punched TM at all. His face wasn’t bloodied and there was no injury other than the gunshot wound.
It’s far from clear that GZ used the word “coon” on the 911 tape. He uttered a word that’s about that long maybe, but really is indiscipherable. Could have been goon or something else. Some people esp. blacks are just reading into it what they want. There’s no record of GZ using that kind of language. Besides for something to be a hate crime there has to be an underlaying crime to begin with which was motivated by racial animus. There was no underlying crime.
To me this is an open and shut case. All the rest is spin and twisting of evidence and unwarrented conclusions. The MSM have been shockingly biased in their reporting of this, and shockingly misleading. CNN has been the worst.
If anyone has any information at odds with this that they’ve really looked into the actual primary source for, I’d really like to know it. As I said I’m looking for the truth here, and neither a high tech unjust lynching out of racial emotion, nor letting someone off who’s guilty.
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Which his family has conveniently had taken down so that people don’t continue to mine it for info about Trayvon and most importantly for pictures of him when he’s actually 17, rather than a little kid which is what they’ve given to the media.
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@ Doug
Let’s just say, for the sake of an argument, that Trayvon was a thug. Don’t thugs have rights too? Isn’t it, innocent until proven guilty? If someone stalks me and confronts me with hostility, am I not allowed to defend myself, whether I am a thug or not?
Old George picked the fight with the wrong guy, then when he started to lose the fight he draws a gun. A coward’s move. Just take the beating you’ve asked for.
Thug or not, George made a mistake that will cost him everything. Even if he doesn’t get arrested, no one will ever let him live down what he has done.
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SomeGuy–
I’ve got a long comment in moderation that summarizes all the actual factual witness and crime scene and relevant 911 call information in this case and what it means, that I’ve been able to discover, and I’ve done a lot of looking for as primary info as I could find.
Yes absolutely they have rights to not be wrongfully killed.
As well I haven’t called Trayvon a thug. I haven’t seen any good reliable info that he is one, though I also think there’s been about no looking except by a few conservative bloggers, in only the last few days.
However I do think the impression the Martin family and their lawyer have spun to the all to receptive to this message MSM media that Treyvon was a harmless, slight, and physically incapable of beating up Zimmerman kid like 17yo is wholly and very intentionally misleading, and responsible for much of the media and then public’s impression that Zimmerman’s self defense claim was absurd. It’s not absurd whatsoever.
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I really wish abagond would take my long comment out of moderation because, believe it or not, if any of you have links to credible primary information (witnesses actual factual statements as opposed to conclusions from them, crime scene evidence, or relevant 911 call recordings) in this case that contradicts what I summarized I’d very much like to hear it and have you link me to it. I’m after the truth in this. Which means neither letting a likely guilty Zimmerman go free without trial, nor a high tech lynching of him by mob outrage and “justice”.
I’ve given links piecemeal up tread to tall the evidence I’m relying upon.
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For the life of me, Doug 1, why didnt Zimmerman identify himself? He gives absolutly no indication of who he is….there was a moment when he just asked ” what are you doing here ?”…
Not identifying himself is one of the most incriminating things you can say about his actions.
How can Martin know what is going on if he sees someone stalking him and has no idea who he is ?
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Its absolutly bizarre that Zimmerman went after someone and ended up killing someone he was suposed to be protecting.
Matins father was a paid resident of that place, he and his family were suposed to be protected by neighborhood watch not killed by it
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Get a life Doug 1!
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Yea, seriously Doug1, stop whining.
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@Randy
My desire is for a more rational world. To the extent that individuals and groups (such as the media) create and disseminate falsehoods, I object. Fallacies, irrationalities, and con jobs should be opposed wherever found.
You can’t desire for such if you can’t or won’t examine yourself or how “your world” operates. To do so makes you look like a hypocrite.
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“Should George Zimmerman be arrested?”
Maybe he should get a check from Crime Stoppers?
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Get Zimmerman arrested!
He probably thought Trayvon was suspicious because he was walking on the streets really late at night or maybe scared. He should have listen to the police and not go after him like that. I really don’t know if race has anything to do with this but it better not! I believe Trayvon would have been alive today if Zimmerman wouldn;t have gone after him like that.
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Current Zimmerman support in the poll with 637 voting:
65% Hispanic American
18% White American
14% none of the above
12% Other American
4% non-American
3% Black American
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Abagond–
The media has been extremely prejudicial in it’s coverage.
Not for whites.
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@Doug
The media is full of crap!The media just wants people to believe in it’s coverage .
@Abagond
Where did you get that poll?
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The altercation occurred at Zimmerman’s SUV – there was no chase and cornering by Zimmerman; there was an approach by Trayvon to Zimmerman and there were injuries suffered by Zimmerman – broken nose, wound to back of head. Eye-witness had Trayvon on top of zimmerman punching him.
Zimmerman did look for Trayvon initially but was unsuccessful.
The is an obvious case of self-defense and a lesson to all people not to follow suspicious people – go the other direction else they come after you.
Zimmerman was handcuffed and taken to the station for questioning.
Just wanted to clear a few of things up – please get the word out, we may be able to avert massive race riots.
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Doug1
The media is prejudicial. Yes. But not for reasons you have.
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Man, this shit just gets worse and worse and worsde.
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@ Adeen Danica Mckenzie
I made the poll myself. Like all online polls there is no random sampling or anything like you would get in a Gallup poll.
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It has now been a month since Trayvon was killed. Zimmerman still has not been arrested.
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I often wonder, what is the limit of abuse Black Americans can take before enough is enough. Do we have to be rounded up in detention camps before we start to take action to protect ourselves?
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@brahms:
Listen to that tape, you! The dispatcher tells him repeatedly to stay put, wait by the mail boxes, not to go after the kid, and then we hear heavy breathig of mr Zippadippa as he goes after the kid, just when the dispatcher says that he should not go after the kid and into which mr Zigledigledo answers: OK: So he says to the dispatcher that he won’t but he does. Why? Also where that gun came from? If mr Zombiedombie was just going to talk about nice things with the kid, why the Fk he was carrying gun at ready?
@brahms:
“The is an obvious case of self-defense and a lesson to all people not to follow suspicious people – go the other direction else they come after you.”
Yes, the kid tried to go the other direction once “they” came after him. He just could not escape.
@doug:
“the impression the Martin family and their lawyer have spun to the all to receptive to this message MSM media that Treyvon was a harmless”
And who he was harming? What was his crime? Being teenager? Growing up? A hoodie? Walking back to his fathers home?
This is truly crazy. This whole hoodie poop reminds me of Columbine. The school acted fast after that massacre: it forbade black coats at school at oncel!!! Seriously!!!
@abagond: This is depressing indeed. And by looks of it, unless the Feds can come up with something, mr Zimmerman won’t be arrested at all.
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@ Sam
They are doing a voice analysis of the cries for help on the 911 tape. It could break the case (even though the fact that the screams stop the same split second as the gun shot should have been enough):
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-smerconish/tale-of-the-trayvon-marti_b_1378581.html
http://mashable.com/2012/03/26/voice-recognition-trayvon-martin/
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@abagond: Lets hope they get it cleared. But even then, if its Trayvon, will it matter? I know that if it is the other guy, he will walk and that is a bloody shame.
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truthbetold
Doug and Randy, (bliff is here for amusement) are here because…”
No. I’m the one who comes here for amusement. And you guys never cease to entertain.
1. Finding out what “the blacks” are up to.
I know what “the blacks” are up to. I grew up in the hood.
2. Researching how intelligent we really are.
That’s true. And I’ve yet to find signs of intelligence..
3. Quieting the voices in their heads that maybe, possibly, we could be sorta, kinda be right.
Out of everyone here, you’re the one I’d peg as most likely to hear voices.
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@ destructure,
I’m sure you grew up in the “hood”. The same hood that apparently every single black person lives in. Yeah right, that’s about as likely as me saying I grew up on the moon. Why don’t you give us your scripted version of why your “racist” due to seeing black people in their “natural habitat” and how that relates to Trayvon Martin. We’ll drink for every time you mention crime rates!
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Ace
No. Not the same hood every single black lives in. Blacks don’t all live in the same one.
Abagond has already asked that question. You should have been paying attention rather than sleeping in class.
I suspect you’ll be drinking whether I mention crime rates or not.
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@ destructure,
Then how do you know what “black people are up to” if they don’t all live in the same hood? (Or if many don’t live in a hood at all)?
I’m allowed to ask questions if you fail to answer them effectively the first time. Especially if you keep repeating the same claims. I’m not too busy furthering my education to call you out on your bull when you say it.
Nah, I save my rare drink for racial bingo, and when I talk to you I always win.
And again, please enlighten us all on what your time in the “hood” has taught you about Trayvon Martin?
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1 Because I’ve been in more than one hood and didn’t notice much difference.
2 That he had a problem and that mexican had the solution.
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@Doug1
1. Why would anyone follow and ask a teenager walking away with a pack of skittles and an iced tea what he is doing there? Can’t he SEE that he’s just walking away? Why would he inform the cops? And after informing the cops, why would he get so worked up about Trayvon ‘getting away’ without any trouble and follow him?
All things are possible. It is possible that aliens came down in an undetectable invisible UFO at the very specific moment and wired Zimmerman’s mind so that he would shoot the kid. But what is the probability of such an event? Discounting the degree of possibility is not something a rational, materialistic person would do. So race was THE MOTIVATING FACTOR in the case. That’s the rational assumption.
2. Assuming Zimmerman’s account as true, that Trayvon beat him up, let’s focus on the ‘heated argument’ part. How did the argument get heated? The racist Zimmerman in all likelihood threw some racial slurs or other provocative words at Trayvon. Now, racial profiling is not something new in the life of a black kid. Living in a racist environment where you’re a suspect for everything about you is infuriating. If I were Trayvon I would’ve kicked Zimmerman in the face. There’s a limit to how much one can tolerate. I can call you all kinds of names, harass you, and when you get angry and react I’ll shoot you “in self-defence”. This is the logic of the reductionist closedminded degenerate.
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http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/crime/2012/03/sanford_fla_cops_new_leaked_account_of_trayvon_martin_s_killing_.html
@ anyone
Trayvon’s girlfriends account of events which contradicts Zimmerman’s.
Zimmerman has a very clear M.O. to lie.
Trayvon’s girlfriend does not.
I wonder who is telling the truth [/sarcasm]
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http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-arrest-now-abc-reveals-crucial-phone/story?id=15959017#.T3DQCmEgfLs
^^^
Even more incriminating for Zimmerman. Arrest his @$$ now!
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JT–
I completely covered what Trayvon’s hardly neutral girl friend says she said to her or she heard on the cell phone conversation in my summary above. What she says he said or more importantly she says she heard in the verbal interchange between him and Zimmerman doesn’t contradict Zimmerman’s story at all, assuming she’s telling the truth. He conclusion that Zimmerman must have started the physical fight because Treyvon ended the cell phone abrubtly does, but that’s a completely illogical conclusion.
The Martin’s lawyer is good at spinning the media, and the leftist mainstream media is all too willing to be spun. It’s disgusting.
But guess what? The tide is starting to turn.
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*he said to her
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Doug1,
Put down the Fox News.
You call her discreditable.
You see a part of her testimony that you like. You admit it.
You see a part of her testimony that you dislike. You refuse it.
Fact of the matter is, her explanation for why Trayvon (spell his name right dammit.) responded violently (being trailed, verbally accosted and threatened) is much more logical than the one you have been touting.
Your boy Zimmerman has a criminal history involving violence.
Trayvon does not.
The reasons are stacking up.
And all you have is your Fox News horribly slanted coverage (e.g. Geraldo) to support you.
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abagond–
What incredibly biased thought poop.
Zimmerman’s (and it’s well established by four witnessess, one eye and the other three hearing and familiar with both voices) that it was Zimmerman that was doing the screaming. It stopped according to the super politicized and biased Mary Cutcher because Trayvon was dead. Only it wasn’t his voice, his own father has said, and two of Zimmerman’s friends, one black, have said, it was Zimmerman’s. Ummm, do you think that just maybe Zimmerman might, just might, have stopped screaming for help after he shot his assailant dead???????
Big brained abagond???
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And John the only eyewitness to the fight has also said, making it the four.
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This is worse that the Duke lacrosse case.
There’s far more clear cut soon available evidence that the leftist media whipped up lynch mob is entirely wrong.
Gonna be huge egg on black faces soon.
Like you Sharpton, Jackson, and well, ummm, abagond. And the black and leftist commenters on this blog which is almost all of them.
You’re toast.
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There are exactly two witnesses to the initial encounter between Trayvon: Zimmerman himself and Tray’s girlfriend. Zimmerman has an obviously strong incentive to prevaricate, as well as some education that miight enable him to do so in a way that exculpates him. Tray’s girlfriend may be biased, but she has no dog in the hunt.
As I’ve noted, it does appear that Tray put some whupass on Zimmerman. However, it doesn’t add up that Tray, or anybody, would have simply attacked Zimmerman out of the blue, unprovked. That sort of thing almost never happens. When it does, the attacker is usually bipolar or otherwise crazy.
I conclude that there was some confrontation, initiated by Zimmerman. There isn’t another rational explanation. Which leads back to my initial conclusion that Zimmerman was a wannabe cop (in fact, he had begun using a pidgin version of police jargon when calling police) who stuck his nose out too far this time.
The other piece that doesn’t add up is Zimmerman saying that Tray went for his gun. Tray was taller than Zim, and stronger, and besting Zim easily in a fight. If Tray wanted the gun, he would have had the gun. We’ll assume Zim had it in a chest/shoulder holster. He would have reached across his own chest with his right hand to unholster the weapon. If Tray was trying to get the weapon, Zim would have had to backhand the weapon up toward Tray as Tray, sitting on top of him, pushed the arm back down. Zim wasn’t man enough to accomplish this. The only way Zim gets that shot off (as I understand it, basically point blank range in the chest) is because Tray didn’t know about the gun.
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I haven’t said she lied. I’ve said her testimony so far only fed through her media spinning lawyer should OF COURSE be viewed with suspicion. However what she actually said she heard doesn’t in the least disprove Zimmerman’s account of what happened. It also doesn’t in the least support her conclusion that Zimmerman “must have” started the fight.
There’s an extremely well established principle in law that “admissions against interest” (who someone is biased in favor of) should be given extra weight.
The bias on this forum is incredibly large. So far as I can tell that mirrors the black “community” in this country rather well.
It’s not remotely admirable. I’ve taken note.
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Blanc2–
This sentence is an oxymoron. The first part completely disproves the second, for those of you that need it spelled out.
Moronic much??
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Blanc2–
Wrong. It happens all the time when black late teens or young adults feel they’re being dissed by who they consider whites or cops.
Look I think that Zimmerman should have known that and should have been more circumspect in his questioning of Trayvon or shouldn’t have done it at all but wait and let the cops do it. As it was Trayvon according to his gf was the first one who questioned/challenged Zimmerman, “why are you following me?” To which Zimmerman responded “what are you doing around here?” because he didn’t recognize him and would likely have being a regular volunteer neighborhood watch captain, because he was wearing a hoodie which is yeah young black gang wear and because of that more broadly popular among blacks a few wiggers, and because he seemed to be looking at (cassing?) houses and seemed according to Zimmerman to 911 to be on drugs.
According to Zimmerman, as soon as the exchange started to get heated, he turned to walk away back to his car to avoid a physical fight, despite his having a gun. There’s zero evidence to contradict that and it’s highly plausible that 5’9 obese Zimmerman would do that when facing a heating up fast 6’3″ athletic and tough black late teen. Yeah he had a gun but pulling it is always risky and always is gonna involve you in complications and exposure to legal risk, at least if you’re on the grid as he was as opposed to gang bangers, which I’m not saying Trayvon was. (Don’t know, the media hasn’t looked at all.)
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@doug:
“the leftist mainstream media”
Darn, it is those commies after all. They just never give up, do they? Hell bent to destory the white christian America those reds, goddammit!
“the leftist media whipped up lynch mob”
Jeez, more and more those commies who just for fun want to hang a decent white man, eh, correction: lets say hispanic just be sure, so that if he gets convicted this ones not for the white account, eh?
“the black and leftist commenters on this blog which is almost all of them.
You’re toast.”
Toast? You mean you got those crosses burning already? By goddammit!
@destructure:
“I grew up in the hood.”
I very much doubt it but hey, everything is possible, even that a red neck hillie billy racist lives in “da hood”. Yo!
“I’ve been in more than one hood and didn’t notice much difference.”
Noooooo. Really? More than in one Hood?? Why? How many Hoods? Two, three? I mean, Da Hood is full of those unintelligent creatures. What an earth a fine white specimen like you were doing in dose Da Hoods, yo??? Wassup with dat, cuz?
This is insane.
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Sam–
I’m not particularly religious.
You’re particularly fact free and ad hominem, as usual for you and most leftists. You I do consider to be a commie yes. Not most of America’s mainstream media, though they are lefties with the sole exceptions of Fox News (though they’re very PC careful) and the Wall Street Journal’s editorial page, which no one reads – not their front and other pages which when dealing with social or political issues are liberal, reflecting the large majority of the journalists in this country.
In Britain there’s the Telegraph and Daily Mail and to an extent Sun. Not sure about Britain’s non BBC TV. Some of it is owned by Murdock so maybe like Fox? Fox is pro Republican yes, but it’s also very PC on race and feminism issues. I’m not.
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@doug:
“You I do consider to be a commie yes”
And there in lies your problem. Not only you do not obviously do not know what a communist is, nor what communism is, you have drawn totally wrong conclusions about my political stance. But I forgive your ignorance.
As for your “media analysis”, that also shows how big an ignoramus you are. The ones you mention as good ones are the worst right wing propaganda around these days. I mean it is so bad that is embarassing, particulary Fox.
Another thing about Fox, it makes constant mistakes, spews out outright lies and falsehoods (once when a republican congressman was caught to having homosexual relationships they had a banner below the guy saying he was a democrat for days and days).
And you propably are not aware what is going on Britain concerning mr Murdocs and his media imperium. Check it out. That is your kind of media indeed.
Wall Street Journal editor is on the record for saying that he does not believe in democracy because the peoples interests are against the interests of the big business and that plutocarcy should be the way to go. So, perhaps you are also right wing anti-democracy? That would be reasonable and would explain a lot why your are such a racist. The right wing anti-demoracy has also other names, that is guys like you. Yes. They are the fascists and the nazis.
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JT–
Emotional thinking and non logical, as seems to be the usual thing in this black community.
I admit what she says she actually heard as being a statement of fact, that should be filtered through suspicion because of the obvious bias (just as Zimmerman’s statements should be) but in this case it’s actually somewhat an admission against interest. (Actually they’re between neutral and against Trayvon, if one factors in how quickly many young and big black men take heated offense to any perception of being “dissed”.)
I reject her conclusions of who “must have” started the fight because they aren’t logical, they aren’t well founded, and they don’t take into account this young black male tendency to see red very easily over perceptions of being “dissed”.
Treyvon beat the shit out of George Zimmerman because he felt dissed. He had no right to do that. As the shit was being beaten out of him (head repeatedly pounded against the sidewalk and face repeatedly punched past a broken nose, Zimmerman panicked as his screams for help demonstrate and reasonably felt either his life was in danger or at least he was in danger of very serious injury, he says the former. In those circumstances, yeah hotheaded Trayvon deserved to get shot. Let that be a lesson to hotheaded racist blacks in America everywhere.
I doubt Zimmerman meant to kill him. Having majored in criminology in a four year college he didn’t quite complete for reasons we don’t know, he would have known that shooting someone is always a big legal risk, especially if they die.
No he shouldn’t be arrested unless any of you can present evidence I haven’t already covered.
The special prosecutor has been signally that she probably won’t, in her saying this is a very difficult case to the media, etc. But that would take huge political guts. They should get them.
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“Admissions against interests.”
@ Doug,
Lol. Are you high?
It is George Zimmerman’s interest to lie. He could get the death penalty for 1st degree murder. Why wouldn’t he try and lie through his teeth to avoid that penalty.
The Whiteness of your logic. Honestly. What a joke. You don’t even see your own bias even though its glaring right in front of the rest of us.
If it were me, i would not be letting you do your race realist patrols here.
And I am white.
I would let you stay in StormFront.
To suffer in mediocracy and cherry picking.
You should be kissing Abagond’s feet.
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****mediocrity***** not ***** mediocracy*
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@ Doug1,
Seriously, I think you should thank Abagond for hosting a site where you can espouse your narrow-minded and bigoted points of view about Black people.
Contrary, to your antiquated and anachronistic stereotypes of Blacks, on the worst day, Abagond (a Black man) shows an infinitely greater amount of grace, intelligence, and wisdom in his posts then you do on your best days.
So, truly – it is time to thank him for suffering your errant and infantilistic ideas.
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Sam–
Of course I know what communism is both in completely unrealized theory ever and in actual dictatorship of the proletariat practice, up and down and left and right.
No I’m not completely sure about your total political stance but you do not seem very democratically or popularly inclined. Instead you do seem to favor a far far leftist political elite ruling over the “benighted” majority.
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@ Doug1,
Seriously, I think you should thank Abagond for hosting a site where you can espouse your narrow-minded and bigoted points of view about Black people.
Contrary, to your antiquated and anachronistic stereotypes of Blacks, on the worst day, Abagond (a Black man) shows an infinitely greater amount of grace, intelligence, and wisdom in his posts then you do on your best days.
So, truly – it is time to thank him for suffering your errant and infantilistic ideas.
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@Doug,I reject her conclusions of who “must have” started the fight because they aren’t logical, they aren’t well founded, and they don’t take into account this young black male tendency to see red very easily over perceptions of being “dissed”.
_
Link please, to the history of Trayvon Martin’s tendency to see red…..
(as opposed to GZ’s documented history of violence on the police and his girlfriend.)
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When this case first hit the news, I witnessed outrage that a child was murdered, not just among the African-American or left-leaning communities but among the general public. I thought this was a good sign, that people were opening their eyes and could feel genuine anger at the racism that still exists in America.
Silly me. I’m clearly much to optimistic about humanity. It’s been days since the murder, and already the mainstream media is smearing the victim. People latched onto anything that could demonize Trayvon — so he was suspended from school. Like that’s a reason for him to be dead? how many kids do you know who get suspended from school?the fact that this is even being discussed is a sign of true sickness. Evil. — and accept Zimmerman’s excuse that he was acting in self defense. Trayvon is the one who was defending himself. He was stalked and confronted by a gun-wielding adult man much larger than himself! Not even a policeman, just a random psycho with a gun. Of course he fought back. Zimmerman wasn’t acting in self defense, he was the one doing the attacking.
But so many white people (and even some non-white people, yes, but it’s mainly white people) are desperate to discount any proof of racism in society, and desperate to prove that it’s “reverse racism” that’s the real problem, even when the facts are staring them in the face. It would be funny if it wasn’t so disgusting.
I try to love my fellow man but these days I’ve found myself wishing that terrible things would happen to George Zimmerman and his defenders.
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@Gozu-Kara, Amen.
I
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Doug: You don’t understand the concept of “admission against interest”. It’s an evidentiary rule with a fairly narrow application.
Your glib conclusion that Trayvon was the initial aggressor because he’s a black male and, well, heck, we all know those black men are always flying off the handle, besides being racist, it also reveals your lack of understanding of the rules of evidence.
Your malapropisms are amusing, though. You remind me of that Damon Wayans character from “In Living Color”, self-educated ex-con who spouts made-up $10 words in a failed attempt to sound educated.
Gozu: Yes, it is unfortunate that the MSM tends to want to put the victim on trial. The reality, though, is that our society tends to do that.
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@ Doug1
Perhaps you might want to get down to MSNBC and speak to Lawrence O’Donnell. Now apparently even his Lawyer has run away from defending Zimmerman!!!
Surely this speaks volumes about the “potential self-defense” claim of George Zimmerman over his shooting of young Trayvon Martin? Which legal attorney runs away from a media publicity opportunity to defend their client???
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/26/craig-sonner-interview-lawrence-odonnell_n_1381578.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000009
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I don’t think Zimmerman should be arrested. I don’t think he should even get community service. He’s already done the community a service. 🙂
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@ destructure
You aren’t as funny as you think you are, bro.
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@ destructure
I think there should be room for you with Craig Sonner if you also want to run back into that closet…!!!
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@destructure
I don’t think he should even get community service. He’s already done the community a service.
Now that is funny!!!!!
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@ Bliff
So are your puerile attempts to trivialize honest discussion on issues of moral concern in all of these posts. I predict at some point in your life you will be confronted “first hand” with these same issues you mock and trivialize. Perhaps you would like to report back then on how hilarious you found it …
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@ Kwamla
What do you expect from a guy who says he is being “chimped” here on this blog. Yeah, go check the Open Thread. A real classy guy.
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@vanishingpoint
Understanding the racial component in this case is very important. George Zimmerman is half-white and half-indian(mestizo), and the victim is black. White folk don’t wanna claim Zimmerman as their own, and spanish folk downplay the whiteness of Zimmerman to excuse his obvious racial bias against black males. Both parties are in the same boat, racially speaking. Whites in the US enslaved blacks, and whites in central and south america enslaved blacks as well. In essence, two groups of whites and mixed-race folk on the spanish side are debating back and forth over who’s the least racist when both of them are in the same boat. Black people in the US have been fed a bunch of lies about how spanish culture really operates via black folk. I deal with bs from spanish folk in Miami on a daily basis, so, no one can tell me otherwise. Replacing one group of whites and other non-blacks is not fixing the problem, which is why i don’t acknowledge the hispanic/latino identity issue. I see it as a smokescreen designed to keep spanish blacks and mestizos to a lesser extent under the boot of white spaniards. The tragic death of Treyvon Martin has exposed the hypocrisy on both sides…Bottomline
Tyrone
MindScape
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So are your puerile attempts to trivialize honest discussion on issues of moral concern in all of these posts.
Bliff and his kin are morally bankrupt and mentally deficient. Only malfeasants such as Bliff, destructure, and the other cunning array of stunts could make light of this case and argue vigorously for this Zimmerman creep. The receptors in Bliff’s brain are off kilter today, take your meds! If anyone’s a racist it is you with your unemphatic half crocked lunacy.
What do you expect from a guy who says he is being “chimped” here on this blog. Yeah, go check the Open Thread. A real classy guy.
He reads like he’s bipolar, really.
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Your malapropisms are amusing, though.
He reads like that character ‘Slip’ from the Bowery Boys movies. Slip was famous for his use of malapropism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Gorcey
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@Tryone,
Thanks for your insight.
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@doug;
“Of course I know what communism is both in completely unrealized theory ever and in actual dictatorship of the proletariat practice, up and down and left and right.
No I’m not completely sure about your total political stance but you do not seem very democratically or popularly inclined. Instead you do seem to favor a far far leftist political elite ruling over the “benighted” majority.”
No you do not. You think so.
And where I was anti democratic? In your head. You, on the other hand, advocate racism and racial opression, right to murder underage children, etc. And neo fascism.
“Instead you do seem to favor a far far leftist political elite ruling over the “benighted” majority.””
And where did I state anything like that? Nowhere but in your own imagination.
You are, on the other hand, as seen on this topic too, very ignorant racist leaning towards fascism.
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Apparently Trayvon had quite a little business going selling dope and stolen women’s jewelry. I swear, this just gets better and better. Fools should have just left this one alone. LOL!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2120504/Trayvon-Martin-case-He-suspended-times-caught-burglary-tool.html
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Don’t know If I’ll still show up on here as “sid” or not, but I’ve recently had a bit of a Satori about this case while mowing the lawn in regard to this case, which prompted me to write something about this. I may post it at some point. I’ve had my old blog relinked to me somehow through posting here a few times. Probably involving magic.
But enough about that. The basic gist of the rant is about reasonable doubt and the possibility of Zimmerman as a Judas Goat for all the instances where Black people don’t seem to get the same benefit of the doubt, and an admittedly idealistic hope that rather than pursuing revenge, people would instead choose justice – not only here, but in future trials as well. Letting this case remain in the minds of guilty white people who feel guilty because they know they might not give a black defendant the benefit of their own doubt.
This of course is based on the things we don’t know, and the assumption that there is enough ‘grey area’ for reasonable doubt. I can’t help wonder if this would be a real life example of Greedo shooting First (Interpert that however you wish, it works either way.)
Also, one of the things I did think about was the case of Mr. White, although I recalled the case but not the names involved. Now that I’ve been given the name, I did a little bit of digging, and it turns out Mr. White was pardoned.
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/john-white-convicted-killing-daniel-cicciaro-pardoned-gov-david-paterson-article-1.474441
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Despite mounting evidence that Zimmerman is innocent, that Trayvon was not pursued or cornered but approached Z and attacked, blacks here, and across the nation, continue to call for his head. My pessimism for improving race relations and integration is again reinforced. The current black behavior is no different than when blacks cheered the OJ verdict – blacks don’t care about truth, they care about fighting their long war against the white man. There is nothing a white person can do to make them happy – I for one have given up, no more kowtowing to blacks for me – more and more whites are coming to the same conclusion.
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@ Brahms
You are guilty of two things:
First, of lying, since there is no mounting evidence that Zimmerman is innocent.
Second, you treat Blacks as a monolithic entity – a gestalt. When Blacks treat Whites this way, you complain. So don’t do it to Blacks and expect different results.
Why don’t you bigots just stop the B.S. and admit that you’re bigots and racists. You’ll at least be honest and true to yourselves.
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“destructure
Apparently Trayvon had quite a little business going selling dope and stolen women’s jewelry. I swear, this just gets better and better. Fools should have just left this one alone.”
If so, glad this news has made your day. Zimmerman still needs to be arrested (as he should have that night), with adjudication done in a courtroom with lawyers for the defense and the DEAD victim.
This way, Zimmerman can tell his side on why he felt it was self defense and Trayvon can say–oh,oh, wait, Trayvon can’t say anything because he is DEAD
So we can only go by what Zimmerman said to the police, what witness saw and heard, and then the jury can listen to the character / reputation assassinations of both the LIVE defendent Zimmerman and the DEAD victim Trayvons
But the beautiful part about it all would be that “there is a trial because the police would do their JOBS and arrest Zimmerman so that he can have a jury decide his guilt or innocence”
just like they do most people who shoot someone.
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Some of these comments are 100% repulsing. Oh the irony of whites saying that they are superior in ANY way. They sure as heck don’t act it here. Or here:
http://www.tmz.com/2012/03/27/octomom-nude-photos-topless/?adid=hero1
LOL.
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I see, he was suspended from school! So he deserved to be followed and shot dead on his way home by someone who didn’t know he was suspended from school. It all makes sense now. And here I was mistaking justice for injustice. Little did I know Trayvon Martin had basically committed a capital offense and Zimmerman was a licensed judge, jury and executioner. Nothing to see here guys!
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Someguy
“You are guilty of two things:
First, of lying, since there is no mounting evidence that Zimmerman is innocent.”
The altercation happened 10 feet from Zimmerman’s SUV – are you claiming that Zimmerman chased and corned Martin at this location?
Are you denying that Martin approached Zimmerman at his SUV? Apparently so.
The only info we have is from Zimmerman, witnesses, police, and girlfriend – look at it and show me how it leads to a guilty Zimmerman.
As far as viewing blacks as monolithic – there is only one black who I have heard or read that is supporting Z – his friend. I haven’t read what the black conservatives are saying – I’ll check it out. Black conservatives make up a tiny fraction of blacks though.
Do you have some links to blacks supporing Zimmerman?????????? Or are you just arguing to argue?
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I see, he was suspended from school! So he deserved to be followed and shot dead on his way home by someone who didn’t know he was suspended from school. It all makes sense now. And here I was mistaking justice for injustice. Little did I know Trayvon Martin had basically committed a capital offense and Zimmerman was a licensed judge, jury and executioner. Nothing to see here guys!
‘
‘
‘
@ Origin,
You nailed it on the head. Arrest George Zimmerman!
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@Brahms
There is nothing a white person can do to make them happy
Yes there are. It’s just that they (whites) don’t want to do them.
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Please explain Brothawolf – I can’t wait for this.
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There are what, 30 million plus Black people in America. Shall I interview every single one of them? Are you seriously trying to say that all Black people think the same?
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How can you be none of the above?
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The ONLY point that I accept from the Afro-centrists here is that Zimmerman followed Trayvon in his car for no other reason than he looked suspicious. Would he have followed an old lady? – no. Why did Trayvon look suspicious? He was wearing the garb of a gang-banger. Why? Why do innocent law-abiding blacks insist on wearing the attire of criminals? – sagging pants, hoodies, gold teeth, and various other modes of dress? Why not dress like a non-gang member? I know the answer – it would be conforming to white standards and that’s anathema to being truly black (keeping it real).
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Somegy
“There are what, 30 million plus Black people in America. Shall I interview every single one of them? Are you seriously trying to say that all Black people think the same?”
I’m assuming that Thomas Sowell, Larry Elder, people like that understand the circumstances. I’m sure there are some out there but since 73% of all people questioned in a CNN poll want Zimmerman arrested, the % blacks who want him arrested is substantially higher. What percentage of blacks want Zimmerman arrested? Take a guess.
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@Brahms
Okay I’ll tell ya:
1. Since the majority of people are in leadership positions politically and economically, they could pay as the same amount they pay whites, give us a chance to build our own economies and political structures without interference from the outside, and give black people what they are long overdue in needing.
2. Whenever there’s a conversation or discussion on racism, don’t say anything if it’s not constructive or original. It is not a forum to make white people feel good.
3. Whites not only need to keep quiet, but they also need to listen. For too long, whether you agree or not, everything’s always been about what white people think, feel, say, and do when it comes to damn near anything. When blacks or POC talk, it is not “white” time.
4. Stop thinking that all black people are the same. We are not the Borg from Star Trek. We are individuals, and we should be treated as such just like you and your kind expect us to treat your people as individuals.
5. Learn the true meaning of hypocrisy.
6. Examine who you are. Your people are not above faults or sins. History has proven that.
7. Don’t think for one moment that history has nothing to do with what’s going on today. The past connects with the present which is connected to the future. Whether it’s personal history, human history, social history and any other kinds of history you can think of, they are a part of the continuum of life.
8. Don’t nitpick history. Just like how the positive moments are always highlighted, the negative moments are censored, ignored and kept hidden. If not, history will repeat itself.
9. If we talk about history, including the horrible parts, you have no authority to tell anyone not to do that.
10. Stop thinking that everything is about you and white people. You are not the only kind of people on this earth to exist let alone suffer.
11. Stop living in extreme denial that white people may have a serious problem when it comes to race. It is not by any means a “black thing”.
12. Don’t tell us how to feel, think, talk or act, especially if you can hardly see us as human beings. You have no authority on black people. None.
13. Stop only seeing the worst in us first before you see us as people.
14. Learn about black people from black people, not the TV, newspaper, movies or racist white people.
15. Stop immediately denying or discounting anything black people or POC say when it concerns them. To do so is a sign of pure arrogance.
16. Don’t expect us to “be kind” or “speak in a certain tone” when we express our true feelings regarding racism. Those feelings come from the scars of living in a racist world.
17. Stop trying to be like us. “Blackness” is not a style that passes over time.
18. Stop thinking you know more about me and my people than…me and my people especially if you’ve hardly even met any of my people.
19. Respect our lives just like you expect us to respect yours. Respect is not a one-way street.
20. Don’t ignore this list if you truly want to learn something new. If you don’t, then there’s nothing more I or anyone else can say.
Is there anything else anyone would like to add to this list. This is a spur of the moment thing.
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@ SomeGuy
“Second, you treat Blacks as a monolithic entity – a gestalt. When Blacks treat Whites this way, you complain. So don’t do it to Blacks and expect different results.” YES, co-sign-Sweet Perfection!
Brahms clings 24/7 to his lunatic theory that Blacks are Borgs. If he lets it go, every single thought, attitude, and belief he cherishes dissipates along with his identity.
@BrothaWolf, Demeera, SomeGuy, Kwamla, Origin, Truthbetold, Leigh, JT, Abagond and so many others who consistenly hold a mirror to their hypocrisy:
Thank you.
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@ Brahms
I bet I can eat grits off your brain, it’s so clean.
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@Brahms
One more thing. I don’t expect you to take in the list I made for your response because at the end of the day you, Doug1, destructure, Bliff and all those merry men of race realism will continue to think what you want to think.
However, the same applies to me and Abagond, Someguy, JT, Sam, Matari, Demerera, Bulanik, Mira, Truthbetold, Ace, Herneith, Leigh and anyone else here. We are concerned that a young man was killed by a vigilante, and although that doesn’t matter to you, you have no right to tell us that it shouldn’t matter to us either.
Regardless of his trouble at school, the fact of the matter is that he was murdered just like numerous other black children across this country, and we are tired of it no matter who the murderers are. You may not see it, but then again, if you follow the news, you won’t see it. Why? Because it isn’t “sensational” enough to be reported. Plus, you may not have noticed, purposely or otherwise, but black communities are working overtime to stop the violence. What are you guys doing to help instead of sitting in front of a computer criticizing us on how we feel about the latest murder?
In the end you don’t care about black people and that’s the truth. You may not have said it in so many words (yet), but if you cared about the truth, you would come right out, say it, and be done with it instead of tap dancing around the obvious.
So, go ahead and continue trolling as much as you want until you either get bored and quit or end up kicked out of here. It’s your choice. For right now, I’m going to continue to stick to my beliefs no matter how much it annoys you.
Peace.
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Brotha wolf
1. don’t understand the statment
2. makes no sense – I will speak my mind regardless of your personal desires.
3. makes no sense – so I should be quiet, interesting.
4. it is you who cites the shared trauma of slavery not me – non-white problem
5. expound please
6. done everyday in the media and textbooks – non-issue
7. not something whites can affect – irrelevant
8. history texts are anti-white – done
9. done – never happens anyway
10. I should suffer because others do? Illogical.
11. Met only one in my entire life – false statement.
12. White people are telling you how to think? To your face? Really?
13.14. I grew up with blacks in majority black school and neighborhood – I know how you feel about whites. I know about “the talk” parents have with their black kids – the world will treat you unfairly etc. – world = white.
15. I don’t – false statement
16. There is very little white-black racism – you are taught to see racism everywhere.
17. only wiggers try to act black – another false statement
18. “people” -I thought I wasn’t supposed to view blacks as monolithic – this is confusing
19. whites do not show you disrespect – you may be confusing disrespect with fear.
20. read it
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Brothawold
Trayvon approached Zimmerman (stalked him, if you will) and then broke his nose and pounded his head into the concrete. Yes, the witness is lying, the cops are lying, zimmerman is lying – I know.
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@ Brothawolf,
Seriously, brilliant writing. I dont ever expect the race realists to get any of it but that’s not saying much. They are cognitively but more importantly, SPIRITUALLY DEFICIENT.
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JT
Especially,
4. Stop thinking that all black people are the same. We are not the Borg from Star Trek. We are individuals, and we should be treated as such just like you and your kind expect us to treat your people as individuals.
compared with
16. Don’t expect us to “be kind” or “speak in a certain tone” when we express our true feelings regarding racism. Those feelings come from the scars of living in a racist world.
17. Stop trying to be like us. “Blackness” is not a style that passes over time.
18. Stop thinking you know more about me and my people than…me and my people especially if you’ve hardly even met any of my people.
Statements in direct opposition.
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In other words –
ALL blacks live in a racist world
ALL blacks have the scars of racism
BLACKNESS is a unique identity
Blacks are a PEOPLE, a collective
And then I’m not supposed to think that black thought is monolithic – good lord almighty.
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You really can’t be this dumb.
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Someguy
When you say that you are part of a “people”; when you claim that all of your “people” share the same traumas; when you claim that your “people” share an identity – that is a centric possition not an individualist one.
Blacks overwelming vote as a block; whites do not – if you’d like statistical evidence.
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Brahms,
I don’t see any contradiction.
Here is my reading of each of those four items.
4. Blacks are individuals.
16. Each Black individual has a different thought/feeling associated with the subject of racism. Don’t expect them to respond in a uniform manner, and more likely, expect that each individual has their own trauma associated with racists.
17. Don’t treat Black individuals like they are a part of that commercial system that white males often want to buy from and emulate. Blacks are not part of a fad nor a trend nor something to gain credibility nor your masculinity. If you think that Black culture is about hiphop stereotypes, then what you think Black culture is about and what Blackness is actually about are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT things.
18. You need to interact with Black individuals to actually understand the rich culture, history, literature, society etc. If you have not interacted with Black individuals then don’t expect to be able to generalize from the media’s representations of them nor a very small sample that you may have had brief interactions with. Don’t reduce an individual onto a media portrayal or your own distorted views. Give them a chance to be themselves and you will be surprised everytime because just like with Whites you get something new with each individual.
Please correct me where I’m wrong, brothawolf. It was straightforward for me but clearly not for everyone because they clearly don’t have the same frame of reference.
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@ Brahms
I think you’ve gotten more than enough spotlight from me with your twisted logic. I’m done. I’ll let someone else handle you from now on.
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Brahms–
“While simultaneously often claiming when it suits their purpose that “race does not exist”, “race isn’t a biological [or genetic] reality”, and “race is just a social construct”. All crap.
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DNA studies do not indicate that separate classifiable subspecies (races) exist within modern humans. While different genes for physical traits such as skin and hair color can be identified between individuals, no consistent patterns of genes across the human genome exist to distinguish one race from another. There also is no genetic basis for divisions of human ethnicity. People who have lived in the same geographic region for many generations may have some alleles in common, but no allele will be found in all members of one population and in no members of any other.
-U.S. Department of Energy Office of Science, Office of Biological and Environmental Research, Human Genome Program
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Furthermore Douglas, when I talk about Black and White, I speak of ethnicity, not race. Just so we are clear in the future. Thanks.
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JT
4. Blacks are individuals.
16. “Each Black individual has a different thought/feeling associated with the subject of racism. Don’t expect them to respond in a uniform manner, and more likely, expect that each individual has their own trauma associated with racists.”
Translation – all blacks experience racism – monolithic.
17. Don’t treat Black individuals like they are a part of that commercial system that white males often want to buy from and emulate. Blacks are not part of a fad nor a trend nor something to gain credibility nor your masculinity. If you think that Black culture is about hiphop stereotypes, then what you think Black culture is about and what Blackness is actually about are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT things.
Translation – there is such a thing as “blackness” – monolithic.
18. You need to interact with Black individuals to actually understand the rich culture, history, literature, society etc. If you have not interacted with Black individuals then don’t expect to be able to generalize from the media’s representations of them nor a very small sample that you may have had brief interactions with. Don’t reduce an individual onto a media portrayal or your own distorted views. Give them a chance to be themselves and you will be surprised everytime because just like with Whites you get something new with each individual.
That is not representative of what he wrote. He implied that blacks were his people – are blacks individuals or a people? You cannot have it both ways.
People – A body of persons sharing a common religion, culture, language, or inherited condition of life.
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And if blacks are a “people” are whites entitled to that privelage as well?
People – A body of persons sharing a common religion, culture, language, or inherited condition of life.
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I read brothawolf’s slop and the only thing I got out of it was “Blacks are good, whites are bad. Shut up and do what we say.”
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Someguy–
No quite a few more, genius. 37 million or so using the 2010 census percentage of black Americans as about 12% and the number of Americans today or those living here anyway as about 310 million. Of whom about 20 million are probably illegal immigrants, most of whom should be deported unless they’re super great beneficial in some way.
Blacks should be in favor of this most of all because they take black jobs, but aren’t because upper quarter blacks are big into political battles with whites, and gaining various kinds of white peace making tribute. I say screw peace, and turn machine go
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Brahms put it to music and play it on the violin.
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I truly fear race riots are coming because of the irresponsible media’s portrayal of this case. Zimmerman will not be indicted. With so many whites now being armed – this could be very bad.
“Take a look over the past few years and we begin to see a pattern of not only acceptance of racism against non-Blacks, but an encouragement born out of a refusal to act upon it as well. In 2011, large mobs of Blacks attacked unsuspecting Whites at the Wisconsin State Fair while making racist statements. In May 2010 a 90 pound White girl was attacked by a mob of Blacks in Detroit, Michigan. In Chicago, in June 2011, a large mob of Blacks began assaulting Whites, as well as one visiting Japanese doctor. That same month another all-Black mob began attacking Whites in Philadelphia. One year previous, in February 2010, what was called a “flash mob” consisting of nothing but Blacks began attacking Whites. October 2011 in Peoria, Illinois a Black mob attacked a White Meals on Wheels driver and another woman. In Ohio, July 2009, the same thing with a White family beaten by a Black mob shouting “This is OUR world!” September 2011, again in Philadelphia, an all Black mob kicks their way into a White family’s home and attacks while screaming “We got you, you White mother f***er!” And of course, just this past month the group of Black teens who doused a 13 year old White child with gasoline and set him on fire while telling him “This is what you deserve. You get what you deserve, White boy.””
http://constitutionclub.org/2012/03/24/who-is-responsible-for-the-trayvon-martin-killing/
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@ Doug
I believe 37 million does qualify (quantify?) as “30 million plus“.
I’m curious about one thing you wrote though, and help me out if you can. You mentioned something about illegals taking “Black jobs”. Can you please clarify what a “Black job” is? I mean, if America is a land of equality oppurtunity, aren’t all jobs considered “Black jobs”?
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This case was so sad
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@ Doug
You’re about one drink away from a slur aren’t you?
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@ Brothawolf
WOW!
That list should be put on ALL blogs. Serious stuff, all true.
Copy it and add it to your blog.
Great work.
But…I have to add that due to my increasing contempt of most white Americans, (yes I openly admit this, why lie?), most will laugh at your astute insight. It takes a mature person to list, FAIRLY, what we want from society.
I’ve given up all hope on change from them. The disease has spread from generation to generation, like alcoholism, and now it’s so far beyond control, all they do is binge drink.
I feel that Zimmerman, with his ex-judge daddy, will walk away a free man.
Evidence was lost when he was permited to go home with his blood and grass stained clothing. A purposeful botch-job!
Now the KKK is handing out flyers…
Prepare for a riot. Or worse.
When God makes his final judgement, may he have mercy on their souls.
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Someguy asks, “Can you please clarify what a “Black job” is? I mean, if America is a land of equality oppurtunity, aren’t all jobs considered “Black jobs”?”
If you want to look at all jobs as “Black jobs” then that means every one of those 20 million illegals took a black job. Which is what I believe Doug just said.
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1. don’t understand the statment
2. makes no sense – I will speak my mind regardless of your personal desires.
3. makes no sense – so I should be quiet, interesting.
4. it is you who cites the shared trauma of slavery not me – non-white problem
5. expound please
6. done everyday in the media and textbooks – non-issue
7. not something whites can affect – irrelevant
8. history texts are anti-white – done
9. done – never happens anyway
10. I should suffer because others do? Illogical.
11. Met only one in my entire life – false statement.
12. White people are telling you how to think? To your face? Really?
13.14. I grew up with blacks in majority black school and neighborhood – I know how you feel about whites. I know about “the talk” parents have with their black kids – the world will treat you unfairly etc. – world = white.
15. I don’t – false statement
16. There is very little white-black racism – you are taught to see racism everywhere.
17. only wiggers try to act black – another false statement
18. “people” -I thought I wasn’t supposed to view blacks as monolithic – this is confusing
19. whites do not show you disrespect – you may be confusing disrespect with fear.
20. read it
-Brahms
I read brothawolf’s slop and the only thing I got out of it was “Blacks are good, whites are bad. Shut up and do what we say.”
-Destructure
Wow. Just wow. If there are examples of angry white men, you guys fit that mold perfectly. But if you decide to be more angry at the fact that black people are not what you WANT them to be than this decimation of this mortal coil that is white supremacy, so be it.
It’s obvious you don’t want to be human beings because that would mean having a heart, a mind, and a soul. No. You prefer to be white than human.
Even though we can’t change your views, you damn sure can’t change ours especially with your typical whiteness. So, I guess we are at an impasse at this argument of morals and logic.
To me it’s spilled milk. To you it’s a plea for survival.
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@Doug1
Blacks should be in favor of this most of all because they take black jobs, but aren’t because upper quarter blacks are big into political battles with whites, and gaining various kinds of white peace making tribute. I say screw peace, and turn machine go.
What the hell are black jobs and what does this have to do with this post?
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truthbetold writes, “I feel that Zimmerman, with his ex-judge daddy, will walk away a free man.”
Indeed, he will. As well, he should. But his father isn’t an ex-judge. His father is ex-military.
“Evidence was lost when he was permited to go home with his blood and grass stained clothing. A purposeful botch-job!”
I think you’ve been watching too much CSI.
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brothawolf writes,
“It’s obvious you don’t want to be human beings because that would mean having a heart, a mind, and a soul. No. You prefer to be white than human. “
That comment says more about you than it does about me.
“To me it’s spilled milk. To you it’s a plea for survival.”
You’re on here every day whining and crying about the almighty white man with his boot on your neck. And now you’re going to come up with some junk like that. Let me clue you in — I’m not worried about you. I told you, I’m here for my own amusement.
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@Destructure
Of course. It’s me who has the problem and never you, the one who’s here for amusement. Seriously man, you need Jesus, Prozac, or something. lol
You’re on here every day whining and crying about the almighty white man with his boot on your neck. And now you’re going to come up with some junk like that. Let me clue you in — I’m not worried about you. I told you, I’m here for my own amusement.
That’s the difference between you and I. You’re here for amusement. I’m here for information and incite. But hey, do what works for you.
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brothawolf
Ok. If you say so.
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@ brothawolf
Don’t bother with destructure. He’s just a harmless troll. If I felt he had anything valid to say, I’d respond to his toothless trolling.
As for Brahms, he’s just a broken record playing the same old, tired tune. I’d bother with him if it wasn’t similar to talking to a brick wall. An especially THICK brick wall with reinforced siding.
We need a better quality of bigots here. Perhaps those boys over at Stormfront can ship us a few.
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@ SomeGuy,
Oh lord…it’s like the same over and over again.
I want a refund. I think this batch is defective.
(My father had to do research on Stormfront during his military intelligence days…)
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@Brahms
All those mob attacks you described happened in the past. Why don’t you just get over it, already? I mean that happened a while a ago. Why don’t you man up, move on, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, and better your lives instead of whining about what happened in the past.
(Someone had to say it.)
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Someguy,
You’re right. I shouldn’t engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed person like Destructure.
Brahms is like a broken record, or in modern terms, a scratched up CD lol.
These bigots are boring as well. They are not original anymore. Although, they are doing a hell of a job at revealing themselves.
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@ ace and brothawolf
You know what the worst part about all of this is? I feel drained after dealing with these “psychic vampires”(as some people call them). They literally make me tired. It’s my own fault for giving away my energy so freely. I must remember not to concern myself with the unworthy and focus on the topics at hand. After all, as I have previously stated, these people are too static to change. Five years from now, ten years from now and on their deathbeds, they’ll still be the same old bigots they are now.
Sad really.
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@someguy: It is ok to bitch slap them now and then but do not take them too seriously.
@brothawolf: They really do. I wonder if anyone is collecting their sayings here. They draw a conclusive picture of the american racism for any study of the subject.
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It is sad. That’s why we can’t worry about those with incorrigible mindsets who prefer to be happy than good.
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@ Someguy,
I hear you. I always feel drained, but then if I leave it alone, they start running around making messes and acting like they’ve “won” something. It’s like kindergarten.
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@ Ace, Brothawolf, Sam
The real battle is within themselves. That is where the conflict exists because on some level, they know that to deny a slayn teen and his mourners peace & justice is fundamentally wrong.
Let’s hope that because they possess a semblence of a brain that they might too possess a semblence of a heart. Although so far, it hasn’t seemed that way.
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@ JT,
They do not think for themselves. Instead, they are just a mouthpiece for philosophy that encourages hatred and stagnation, while slowing positive change and limiting true potential. Whether they do it through violence or words, they need a world where people of color live under their boots. For every one George Zimmerman, there are many more who hide behind screen names and pleasantries.
They’re like the weeds that clog up a pretty garden.
You can’t just sit there and hope they blend in with the other plants, or else they will systematically kill your garden, you need to get your hands dirty and pull them out and make sure they cannot grow back.
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Case Update:
They just released a video of Zimmerman arriving at the police station. When he gets out of the squad car he clearly has no bruises, no grass stains, no bloody clothes, or a broken nose. Nor does he have any bandages on his head, despite the fact that they police officials said he had prior medical treatment.
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@franklin:
Heh heh, now lets see what commies came up with that video since it can not be true according destructure, dougie, randy, brahms and other racists here who have been touting how poor Zimmerman was smashed and his nose broken and he was all bloodied and broken and terrorized and attacked and all kinds of bodily harm.
Notice that these guys never answer to my simple question: how many broken bones mr Zimmerman had in his body and was his smashed skull fractured?
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abagond–
Technical question/quibbel. How can anyone in your starting poll be logically “none of the above”? Literate monkeys?
After yes and no answers for white, black and Hispanic American you cover all other American with other Americans, then you’ve got yes and no for non Americans. What other humans are left?
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Sam–
It was a non close up low resolution video as presented on the web. A blow up still from the video of the back of Zimmerman’s head shows a large gash, as I posted above.
Your ignoring of that in your most recent comment is pure dishonesty as are a whole lot of your comments.
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Doug1,
There are people that identify with other indicators then nationality or skin color.
Those are fairly outdated sources of meaning as we stand in a global society.
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What I meant by “black jobs” is that jobs blacks tended to have much more before the illegal Mexican invasion that Hispanics, and so on. Of course some blacks have jobs at almost all levels of the workforce. Never said otherwise.
The tendency among you blacks to take offense is extreme.
Blacks should really be in be in favor of deporting illegal immigrants, the vat majority of which are Hispanic.
Hey I don’t necessarily dislike Hispanics. I think that while not on average but not so rarely, there are a lot of hot Hispanic girls many of whom tend to favor white guys of any account and umph. Yeah and I take advatage of that.
But that’s not the mass phenomenon, which won’t help this country. It will burden it.
If I could trade the Hispanic lower class for the black I would but I can’t,and remain humaine, which i am determined to do.
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there are some evil people commenting on here. noone has the facts yet. as far as i can tell, there are only 3 credible witnesses…the 2 ladies that heard the gun shot and the kids girlfriend. this john guy….whats he hiding/waiting for?? does he need time to be coached?? they should have arrested zimmerman and held him without bail until all the facts were in. i completely agree with the “stand your ground” law, i know if someone physically attacks me and i have a gun, i’m gonna shoot them. the burden of proof, i believe, is still on zimmerman. I think he should have to prove his life was threatened, and as for his injuries, well….he could have done that to hisself. i know someone that broke their nose(accidentally) walking into a sliding glass door, so i know it doesnt take much to accomplish that. (and no it wasnt me 🙂 )
anyone that just wants to murder could go to florida, make sure noone else is looking, and shoot someone, slam their face into a car/streetpole..bang their head on the sidewalk and call it self defense. oh what a world.
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“What I meant by “black jobs” is that jobs blacks tended to have much more before the illegal Mexican invasion that Hispanics, and so on. Of course some blacks have jobs at almost all levels of the workforce. Never said otherwise.
The tendency among you blacks to take offense is extreme.”
”
”
”
@ Doug1
Forgive me if i am mistaken but this is directed to me. If not then disregard this message.
I was responding to your post which asked abagond about whether his previous options covered all options in his poll (whether the last options were necessary). I am arguing that, yes, they are necessary because not everyone identifies themself through some might consider antiquated markers like skin color or nationality.
Lastly, like i have said a hundred times: i am white so you can leave out the standard fare: ” You Blacks are this and that.” I guess in your language, you can call me a lefty, liberal, progressive. Take your pick.
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Hey, don’t blame me if I jump at the sound of firecrackers. I’m shell shocked.
Classy, bro. Real classy.
Because they are illegal or because they are Hispanic?
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I feel drained after dealing with these “psychic vampires”(as some people call them).
I call them oxygen thieves. That should be made a felony down in the good ol’ US of A.
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/28/trayvon-martin-police-video_n_1386764.html
Here is a video showing GZ at the police station. The man has no bruises or bleeding on him.
So to all those who are arguing self-defense or that GZ was so badly beaten that he had to shoot Trayvon, your point is moot.
GZ should be arrested and tried and if he is found innocent then so be it. But due process must be followed. Right now it just all seems like an elaborate cover up.
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@doug:
“Sam–
It was a non close up low resolution video as presented on the web. A blow up still from the video of the back of Zimmerman’s head shows a large gash, as I posted above.
Your ignoring of that in your most recent comment is pure dishonesty as are a whole lot of your comments.”
Sorry, pal, but those videos shot by two separate surveillance cameras at the police station shows clearly that you are just a racist liar. That man, like I explained before, shows none of the injuries he according to you and your nut racist friends here have claimed he sustained. None. His clothes are not covered with blood as they should have been if his nose was broken. I have seen many broken noses, my own was broken once at hockey rink, so I know that there is no bloodless broken nose.
This guy is normal young man, not the obese cripple you guys falsely tried to portray him. He is well and pretty much uninjured. He is very relaxed and doing just fine. He is not somebody whose head was smahed on concrete. I know. My head was hit with a bench and I have seen people hitting their heads on concrete and asphalt.
You know as well as I that if your head is smashed against concrete many times, you will no walk. You will have a bit more damage than just one “large gahs” in your head. Also isn’t it strnage how this “large gash” is not bleeding at all and how it does not need any bandages or even a tape to stop it bleeding? I have seen dozens of cuts in the heads, including my own, and I know that even a small cut will bleed a lot. This man has no blood anywhere.
Truth is, Dougie, you are a racist liar. Thats it. You have been doing it from the start of this. Now you got caught. That is all. Take it like a man you claim to be.
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/30/trayvon-martin-witness-zimmerman-uninjured?newsfeed=true
I wonder how long it’s going to take before the race realists realize that Trayvon was murdered.
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Sam–
Totally wrong. That video was from a wide angle perspective with Zimmerman’s head very small in it. Buises usually don’t show up until hours later, sometimes the next day. EMT’s were called to the scene and after attempting to resuscitate Trayvon treated and cleaned up Zimmerman.
The Daily Caller has enhanced a still from the Zimmerman arrest video to show the long laceration on the back of Zimmerman’s head.
http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/29/police-surveillance-video-of-zimmerman-may-show-head-injury/
Police said Zimmerman had a bloody back of his head, a bloody nose, and a bloody lip. That blood can be cleaned up. Two eyewitnesses saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman pinning him to the ground, bashing his head against the pavement and repeatedly punching him in the face. No eyewitness of the actual fight contradicts that. One ear witness who didn’t see the fight only Zimmerman standing over Trayvon after he was dead does but only by jumping to unwarrented conclusions. She says the voice screaming for help “had to be” that of the “little kid” Trayvon because it ended right after the gunshot and it was somewhat high pitched. However Travon’s father said after he first listened to 911 tapes said that wasn’t the voice of his son, and Zimmerman would have stop screaming as soon has Trayvon was shot and no longer hitting him. She’s also obviously very prejudiced against Zimmerman and for Trayvon if you see clips of her interviews well after the night of the shooting with all the media spin and pictures of “little kid” Trayvon
As for his clothing not appearing bloody in the video what on earth is your point?? It’s much more surprising that blood from Trayvon wasn’t all over this clothing that blood from his head wasn’t, though it’s certainly possible in that it appears Trayvon slumped off to the side of Zimmerman and was face down in the grass. We know they were struggling so the exact forces going on at the time of the gunshot isn’t know.
We know bloody damn well that Trayvon was shot dead in close range in the chest. Eyewitnesses saw it.
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@ Doug1,
You are letting your prejudice skew your objectivity. The way you condemn Trayvon is quite revelatory.
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http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheat-sheets/2012/03/30/cheat-sheet.html#1
^^^^
Morgue states that there are no bruises on Trayvon.
Zimmerman’s defense is collapsing as there looks to be no struggle as Zimmerman stated that there was.
How has Zimmerman remained free?
Absolutely galling.
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CBS news provides more details about Trayvon’s autopsy:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57406725/martin-funeral-director-no-signs-of-fight-on-body
Zimmerman fired for being “too aggressive” in 2005 and was described as “Jekyll and Hyde”
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57406927/report-zimmerman-described-as-jekyll-and-hyde/?tag=pop;stories
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@JT, some sources are saying that the opinion of a attorney was the only reason why Zimmerman wasn’t arrested that night.
Click to access Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf
(former) Chief Lee’s response
Why was George Zimmerman not arrested the night of the shooting?
“When the Sanford Police Department arrived at the scene of the incident, Mr.
Zimmerman provided a statement claiming he acted in self defense which at the timewas supported by physical evidence and testimony. By Florida Statute, law enforcement was PROHIBITED from making an arrest based on the facts and circumstances they had at the time. Additionally, when any police officer makes an arrest for any reason, the officer MUST swear and affirm that he/she is making the arrest in good faith and with probable cause. If the arrest is done maliciously and inbad faith, the officer and the City may be held liable.”
And yet, the police at the scene has it listed as Homicide – Manslaughter in their initial report.
Click to access Twin%20Lakes%20Shooting%20Initial%20Report.pdf
Those cops saw something, even with the mentioning of injuries to Zimmerman that made them feel that it was not a self-defense act by Zimmerman but at least Manslaughter, which is not justifiable.
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@ Deedee,
Thank you for the information and the link. It is not clear to me how an attorney can prevent the carriage of legal procedure. This is a highly suspicious case that I am sure will reveal much about the inner workings of systemic racism for future generations for those that are not yet aware of it.
And one sad part about this is that if it wasn’t so obvious (Trayvon wasn’t just a baby) you would have had the Doug1 spin of things dominating the narrative here as it has done so many times before:
Black male is dangerous and White man has to do whatever he has to do to stop him.
That story is as old as colonialism itself.
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Deuce—
That’s ridiculous. John was the only eyewitness that saw much of the fight. He came forward right away to the police and early on to the Orlando Sentinel. He saw Trayvon on top on Zimmerman in a red sweater, straddling him and knocking his head against the cement sidewalk and punching him in the face repeatedly while John saw Zimmerman was screaming help repeatedly. He then locked his front porch said he was calling 911 and ran upstairs to do so and on the way heard the gunshot. He doesn’t want his last name publicized because those supporting the self defense side of this were being given a very hard time by the media initially and still in many quarters, and by blacks. It’s obvious why he wouldn’t want his last name of face out there.
There was a thirteen year old boy who saw some of it and saw one man on top of another on the ground but his testimony but seems to be further away and didn’t really make out much of who was doing what to whom.
John’s statements were consistent with what Zimmerman said happened, though he didn’t see the start of the fight. The physical evidence police found at the scene was consistent with a fight having taken place. Zimmerman had a bloodied nose, cut lip and bloody back of his head, and his back was wet and had lots of grass on it, consistent having be pinned down partly on the grass. Also police or the coroner found that the gunshot had occurred at very close range.
The two women saw nothing until well after the gunshot, since they were kept on the phone a while by 911. They heard whining which they assumed “must be” coming from the “little kid” since it stopped right after the gunshot and was rather high pitched. Zimmerman would also of course stop shouting for help once Trayvon was no longer beating him. They also didn’t heard sounds of fighting so they were adamant in an interview with Anderson Cooper well after the Trayvon lawyer and media whipped up outrage that no fighting at taken place first and that racist Zimmerman had simply killed Trayvon in cold blood. Sounds of punching are a lot less loud than those of scream for help. They were obviously very biased but anyway what they actually heard as opposed to jumped to conclusions about is not inconsistent with Zimmerman’s or John’s story.
The same is true of what Trayvon’s clearly biased girlfriend said about her cell phone call with Trayvon up until they first started talking. She says Trayvon asked “why are you following me?” to which Zimmerman she says responded “what are you doing around here?”. She then thought she heard Trayvon’s earpiece come off and the call was abruptly ended. She’s convinced that “must mean” that Zimmerman punched Trayvon first. But if Trayvon was about to sucker punch Zimmerman he’d likely end the call and pocket his phone first. If Zimmerman had sucker punched Trayvon he probably would have dropped or tossed to the side his phone to be able to fight back right away and the Trayvon’s gf likely would have been able to hear the fight. She does of course have a strong reason to be biased just as Zimmerman’s father does.
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JT–
Except I’ve never said that or characterized this case that way.
Zimmerman had absolutely no right to shoot Trayvon because he thought he looked or acted dangerous.
He shot him because Trayvon was on top of Trayvon straddling him and repeatedly pounding his head onto the cement sidewalk despite Zimmerman’s screaming of help and repeatedly punching his nose and breaking it, causing Zimmerman to fear for his life. He especially feared for his life when his gun became visible during their struggle and Trayvon started reaching for it, his brother and attorney have both now said.
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deedee–
First of all it’s a matter of semantics that Zimmerman wasn’t arrested that night. He was disarmed at gunpoint, handcuffed and brought back to the police station for questioning which went on from about 7:30pm until 3am.
They checked further with witnesses and spoke to an attorney in the DA’s office about the evidence they had to that point. Then they decided to release him for now on that date and further investigate. When they didn’t charge him that night they didn’t classify their detaining him for questioning as having arrested him. He was arrested in most people’s understanding of that term, but no hasn’t been charged as of yet.
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@ Doug,
Except for the existing evidence doesn’t support any of what you just said:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/30/trayvon-martin-witness-zimmerman-uninjured?newsfeed=true
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57406927/report-zimmerman-described-as-jekyll-and-hyde/?tag=pop;stories
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57406725/martin-funeral-director-no-signs-of-fight-on-body
You can blame the media. Or you can blame facts. Either way – it doesn’t change the truth of what happened. Zimmerman MURDERED Trayvon. No question.
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@doug1111:
Blablablabla N*****r did it! Blablablabla The N****r is guilty! Blablablabla…
You racist guys are pathetic excuses for racists. Juts be men, forchristsake! Just say what you really want to say it: Lets get the N****rs!!.
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Sam–
You are nothing but an emotionalist far leftist propagandist. Objective truth means nothing to you. I’m sure you consider objective truth to be bourgeois truth, meaning for Marxist leftists “false truth” because it doesn’t reliably support radical equalist revolution, (lead by an as it happens never going equal leftist intellectual elite) in your and their imagination, and to a good degree the case in the communist countries. Only it quickly became intellectual elites mixed with thuggish secret police ones and military ones. Sam’s world.
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The tide is turning peeps.
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Sam–
Your calling me racist because I think the bulk of the evidence having looked into it a lot is on Zimmerman’s side as to whether it was self defense or not, is extremist, and totally unwarranted.
There’s scant impulse for racial fairness on this site that I’ve ever see by either the blogger or the commentariat. However abagond does allow free debate among those opposed to his predominant messages (I don’t disagree with a good number of his posts, and with those I don’t usually comment). Well he allows it with a formerly very strict view as to what was off topic, such as defending oneself from a comments attack that was itself off topic, but seems to have relaxed that, for which I commend abagond. Who I think is smart. Pretty damn racialist, but smart.
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Is the icon I’m given here an accident? Hate it.
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@dougie1234:
Oh boy, it is the communists again! Don’t you get tired of playing that Ole Tune? I mean, USSR collapsed 20 years ago. Communism is gone. You and guys like you are the only ones left who still sing and dance to that old tune.
I understand that in these more civilized days it is hard for a coward like yourself to stand up like a man and take responsibility and say out loudly and proudly: I AM A RACIST AND PROUD OF IT! It takes balls and kind of courage which you obviously do not posses. That is why you hide under the rocks of pseudo impartiality and “race realism” and some other lame excuse like a small worm.
YOU call me a leftist, YOU call me a communist. Well, I am not. But YOU call me such just because you have nothing else to bring up anymore other than some 70 old ghost stories and grand daddys scares.
We have a white guy who stalked a black kid who was not commiting any crime, who had done nothing wrong, a white guy who acted against the very manual of the watch he claimed to present, acted agaist the advice of the dispatcher, shoot the innocent kid dead, was not injured as badly as you liars claimed, was not the morbidly obese slob you guys claimed him to be, was let loose by the cops and is supported and cheered on by racists like you. These are the facts.
We have police raports, video, sound tapes which all point to one conclusion: this guy killed the kid. Period. You claim it was self defence and have made all kinds of excuses for it, excuses which have been desrtoyed one by one as the real evidence has been revealed. There is nothing you guys claimed earlier. Period. The only reason you guys support this murderer is because he killed a N****r and you like it.
All your posts here as well as theirs show that you are convicned that it is ok and legal to shoot and kill N****rs. Period. That is your message, that is the beat you keep drumming here.
What I don’t understand is this: Why not be open about it? Why not say it? Why do you hide behind the skirts of words? Be a man. Once.
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I’ve tried to be and I think have been objective on this case. I’ve said what evidence would flip me to charge Zimmerman.
I’ve not seen any on the Trayvon side be objective, except maybe fledgingly the very young black sixteen year old
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JT–
Right, so there’s no signs on Trayvon’s body that Zimmerman ever hit him or anyway did much damage to him.
So you interpret that as meaning no fight occurred? There is ample evidence that one did, except as viewed through the lens of anti white racists.
What that evidence shows is that Zimmerman may have never hit Trayvon at all, or if he did only did so ineffectually. Already I’m being vastly more fair in my analyses than Team Trayvon peeps.
This is disgusting black and supporters anti-white racial prejudice, clear and simple. Make us pay!!!!
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I’ve never claimed that George Zimmerman wasn’t capable of being violent against Trayvon Martin. However it must be said that GZ has zero of a conviction record. I have said that Trayvon was capable also of being violent against GZ.
So far there is very good evidence that there was a physical fight between the two and that Trayvon was beating Zimmerman up, before the gunshot ending Trayvon’s life. There is no compelling evidence as to who started it.
There are indications however.
I think those indications vastly more point to Trayvon’s starting it due to feeling pissed at dissed due to GZ’s profiling him, following him, and maybe questioning him in a non aggressive manner as his gf claims as per cell convo at the time, than the other way around.
Why would Zimmerman start off hitting Trayvon?? He wasn’t mad much less furious at him, he was suspicious, maybe yes partially for racial reasons (and crime stats) but so what? He knew the cops would soon come because he called them to. If he was found prevailing on Trayvon when they came he’d be in a world of legal hurt, which having majored in criminology he’d know. If he was losing Trayvon might well discover his gun in the struggle which would also not be exactly good for Zimmerman. There was zero reason for him to hit Trayvon, and he doesn’t seem to be really dumb, though no rocket scientist either.
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@ Doug
You’re starting to crack.
Like Nike says: Just do it.
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@ Doug1,
The extent to which you have wedded yourself to Zimmerman’s innocence belies a franticness which i think you aren’t even addressing. You said in an earlier post that if there were another eyewitness that discounted what the first eyewitness said that you would reexamine the facts. You haven’t done that.
Did someone that you idolize (e.g. a father figure) experience a trauma with a Black person where they felt to be the victim?
@ Truthbetold,
It is a matter of time and introspection for Doug. I think he will come. He just needs some coaxing.
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@ doug1111
It is generated from your email address. You can override that and provide your own here:
http://en.gravatar.com/
Note that it might take a few hours for your new avatar to take effect.
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@ abagond,
Why did you tell him? I think his gravatar suits him well. Look at that grin ….LOL.
Just playing.
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@ JT
Doug, Randy and Spliff all have had “experiences” where they’ve been let go from a job, beaten up in primary school, told no by a woman or had a neighbor with a better, bigger, prettier house, and I’m guessing a black person was somehow involved.
What we are witnessing is the mental unstableness of their ego.
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@ truthbetold,
I think you’re right on the money.
But in Doug’s case, I am certain that Doug’s case involves a father-figure.
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Doug is becoming delusional. But it is not surprising since he has always twisted facts to fit his conclusions ever since he stepped foot here. Zimmerman is just the latest example.
Doug, in effect, is disagreeing with the lead homicide detective and siding with the state attorney. But the state attorney probably has political reasons to keep Zimmerman out of court, not ones based on the facts of the case. So Doug is trying to square the circle to save the face of white authority as something just and good. Because he is emotionally invested in the rightness and goodness of White America. That is how I read it.
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@ Abagond,
That is friggin truth.
Very well put!!!!!
I think he needs to see this sooner than later for his own wellbeing and for that of others. It’s not healthy for anyone.
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If in doubt call someone a commie or leftist!!
Is the icon I’m given here an accident? Hate it.
May I suggest one?
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@ Herneith,
LMAO!!!!!
Don’t kill me.
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truthbetold–
Actually I’ve never had a violent encounter with a black person, whether I won or lost. I’m a tail end of it baby boomer. I was raised SWPL all the way in exurban NY by moderately liberal white parents who were FDR and JFK fans all the way, but not radicals. We had a black housekeeper after awhile about my mother’s age whom my mother kind of adopted and helped in various ways beyond paying her well. I liked her. We got on well. Yes it was probably kind of benevolently condescending or that could be claimed. Noblese oblige sort of thing, lite.
I went to private school all through school, with almost no blacks until college. Well a few in prep school but they were all oreos, or the ones I got to know at all were and non acted up big. At college (Stanford, you may have heard of it) blacks self segregated to a huge degree. Same was true in my top five law school (that’s my limit of self identification), so have had about no conflict with blacks. I did have an expensive bicycle stolen at college (Stanford has a pretty big campus and limited parking in most places so everyone gets around by bicycles between classes), and suspected blacks yes, but from outside the Uni most likely, but suspected doesn’t mean sure. It did feel like a personal violation though.
Yes I’ve worked with some blacks since (left law for finance not too long after graduating), but have never in my personal life met a black person I thought was nearly as smart as me. They must exist, I don’t pin the white bell curve; I just haven’t met them or encountered them in class in college or law school.
My moving to the race realist and HBD stance has been a gradual weaning of myself and de propagandizing myself from PC. It’s always been that that I’ve been pissed at and dissilusioned with, not blacks themselves or women (yes I’ve become thoroughly anti-feminist, aside from the most basic feminism.) I’m also in favor of basic civil rights, but not e.g. section 8 housing putting welfare blacks in middle class white communities that have moved at considerable expense to get away from them and their school and other disfunction.
I don’t want to hurt blacks with social policy but I also don’t want to unreasonably burden whites to help blacks with it either, such as with section 8.
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Oh and I’m 6’3 and athletic and muscular, have worked out with weights since middle school, so that is also part of my never having been punked by blacks too I suppose. But mostly being wary and not that much low level exposure to them.
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Doug1 (Doug1111 when wordpress compels me recently to sign into my dummy wordpress account which I opened for a reason I don’t remember) must be delusional, when he disagrees with the very large black and far leftist supporters around here emotional consensus on something.
Um, not. Not at all.
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abagond–
I’ve seen no linking to any source on that.
Even if true what race was he? Yes I do think blacks are FAR less objective than whites on black vs. white crime issues, on average. Esp. if a national “Great White Defendant” storm begins.
As well I really think it’s wrong, very wrong for law enforcement to charge and prosecute someone if they thing it’s conceivable he committed a crime, but less likely than not, when conviction requires a beyond a reasonable doubt standard of proof.
The reason why is that just trying someone for a serious crime imposes a very serious fine upon them, and a huge burden on their ability to gainfully work. Sure that should nonetheless be done to someone the state believes is very probably guilty, in the interest of justice, but not someone who is only conceivably gonna be found guilty, or the black public would feel way better if at least tried.
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Long comment in moderation.
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@ Douglas
Did you remember to take your Prozac, Zanax, Lithium smoothie today? Your voice is the loudest here. He-hawing about facts and evidence. Not once have to expressed human feelings for this boy.
That, my race-realist friend, speaks volumes about your character.
Get Randy’s and Spliff’s phone number. I hear Walmart has a sale on white sheets.
Why are you so invested in this case?
Is it because you desperately want to see a man walk away scott-free for killing a black boy? Do you project yourself in Zimmermans shoes and get a jolly out of imagining that YOU are the shooter?
You know Doug, the difference between you and the rest of us here is, we acknowledge that society has lied to, messed with, exploited and toyed with us. And we have the rage, sadness, pity, esteem(low or high) to contend with.
At least we admit it.
Freely.
You…
You’re a fraud on the verge of a meltdown.
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doug1
As well I really think it’s wrong, very wrong for law enforcement to charge and prosecute someone if they thing it’s conceivable he committed a crime, but less likely than not, when conviction requires a beyond a reasonable doubt standard of proof.
I agree. And so do the courts. Wilfong of Duke lacrosse fame was disbarred and imprisoned for doing that. You can’t arrest or try someone without probable cause.
Yes I do think blacks are FAR less objective than whites on black vs. white crime issues
That’s no joke. The bigots of color (BoC) on this blog prove that every time they open their mouths.
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http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331_1_voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty
“A leading expert in the field of forensic voice identification sought to answer that question by analyzing the recordings for the Orlando Sentinel.
His result: It was not George Zimmerman who called for help.”
“Another expert contacted by the Sentinel, utilizing different techniques, came to the same conclusion.”
As I figured, Zimmerman was not being fully honest……Read for yourself…
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@ Doug
Why, thank you for opening up. Kinda. Douglas, what happened to you to make you ” pissed at and dissilusioned ” ?
Why turn to the fallacy of race realism a.k.a. coded racism?
There must have been a moment, experience, pain, hurt, disappointment when you “turned over to the dark side”.
Doug, no foolishness now, just straight talk between you and I…
I know you are learned. Very much so. But you are not smart.
Being smart is admitting that you know even less than you thought you did. Being smart is realizing that we, humans, have been indoctrinated to believing lies, propaganda, half-truths about the world, about each other, about ourselves and trying to un-learn the bullshit.
I never pretended with you, or with anyone else here to be someone I’m not. I say EXACTLY what’s on my mind. The good, the forgiving, the religious and the bloody awful.
I’m not preaching about realism when I mean racism.
Honestly, the only problem I have with you is your falseness. Bliff comes here for amusement. Destructure for trolling. And Randy, Randy isn’t fooling anyone. He’s colder and more brutal than he realizes. He hides it well with his college-level vocabulary.
I feel that you aren’t being truthful with us.
You hate us.
For being black. And if you could…you’d destroy us all.
I and other coloureds here speak the hurtful truth, the brutal truth, the teary-eyed truth about our lives, jobs, families, what makes us tick, we ask for advise, prayers, help, joke around, flirt and ultimately try to heal.
You come here to instigate, antagonize, to tell us we’re foolish, wrong, unlearned, impulsive, dumb, leftist, heated and inferior.
Why was the defining moment, Doug?
What changed you?
I know mine.
So do the folks here.
What was yours?
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deedee
As I figured, Zimmerman was not being fully honest……Read for yourself…
It may well turn out to be Tray’s voice rather than Zman’s. But that contradicts at least two witnesses who claimed it was Zman’s voice. Without discounting the opinion of this voice technician, I’d like to see two things before I accept it as fact. First, I’d like to see the tape compared to a sample of tray’s voice. And, second, I would like to see if any voice technicians will argue that its Zman’s voice after all.
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That gave me quite a chuckle.
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Not surprising from an ex-lawyer.
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@destructure
There were two voice technicians, Tom Owen “a court-qualified expert witness and former chief engineer for the New York Public Library’s Rodgers and Hammerstein Archives of Recorded Sound, is an authority on biometric voice analysis” and Ed Primeau “a Michigan-based audio engineer and forensics expert”. Two different techniques, same conclusion. Owen, like you, doesn’t conclude it is Martin since he has no sample but “can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it’s not Zimmerman”. Primeau ,on the other hand, believes it is Trayvon.
“I believe that’s Trayvon Martin in the background, without a doubt,” Primeau says, stressing that the tone of the voice is a giveaway. “That’s a young man screaming.”
I can understand wanting a thorough test since that would only be fair. Unfortunately, there may be no sample of Martin’s voice available. Also, since Owen is an expert in his field and Primeau is also then it may actually discourage other checks since those two know what they are doing. It would be interesting to find another qualified expert finding a different conclusion but I don’t believe that is likely to happen.
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As an emotional Negro thinker suffering from Extreme Racial Bias, Cultural Marxism and a Whole Standard Deviation I knew it was Trayvon’s voice because the cries are cut short by the gunshot.
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^^^ LOL!
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Linda says,
Truthbetold,
Wow, your above statement is kind of “poetic”, poetry in motion that has moved me to repost this….absolutely beautiful!
As for this whole back and forth about Zimmerman,I decided I will not post another word about him until after the Grand Jury begins on April 10th
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deedee
I realize that. But this case has seen a lot of claims made (on both sides) that have since been disproven or at least called into question. For example, people were claiming tray was 140 and Zman was 240. But it turns out tray was 160 and Zman is 170. That’s one of the reasons I’ve been skeptical of new claims. In this case, two eyewitnesses have said it was Zman’s voice. I’m inclined to give more weight to the technicians than the eyewitnesses. But since they contradict one another I’d like to give it a couple of days to see if anyone else shows up to dispute the technician’s results. Also, one of the technicians cited in that article had previously listed his reasons for questioning the results of any voice analysis. Here’s the article if you’re interested.
http://mashable.com/2012/03/26/voice-recognition-trayvon-martin/
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Abagond–
Good luck. Aint’t gonna cut (white smart and professional) water. Tough shit black man. Tired of this black crap!!!
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comment in modration. Again. As usual. No preudjucie of course.
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Douglas, —->icon—–>Edit My Profile—–>Display name publicly as—–>type Doug1——>SAVE.
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@destructure
I read it and its makes since to not only assume that the voice analysis is the key to solving the case. At first I was confused until I realized that your posted article is older (several days) since Primeau has gotten slightly involved in the case by analyzing the voice in the 911 call. But it is also important to not put complete faith in witness testimony either. As time pass people tend to restructure their memories of an event and a statement may change. I only pointed out the article as another possibility that Zimmerman was being dishonest. When forensics fully comes out then it can help the case further because that evidence will be one of the most telling.
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deedee
But it is also important to not put complete faith in witness testimony either. As time pass people tend to restructure their memories of an event and a statement may change.
I completely agree. Studies have shown that eyewitness testimony is one of the least dependable kinds of evidence. With two witnesses the testimony is a lot more credible. But then it’s at night so it raises questions of visibility. And, now, with the technician’s voice analysis it really raises some big question marks as to their reliability.
The real evidence is going to be presented in court. Still, I figure that over the next couple of days more voice technicians are going to come forward either supporting or disputing these. If more come out supporting it then I’ll probably accept it as fact. But if some come out disputing it then I’ll have to put a question mark by it and rely on other evidence.
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@destructure:
“For example, people were claiming tray was 140 and Zman was 240. But it turns out tray was 160 and Zman is 170.”
Oh really? It was you guys who claimed that mr Zimmerman was morbidly obese 280. Trayvon was 148lbs. Then you guys announced that he was 160lbs and mr Zimmerman was 240. Then he became 190. Then 180. And the incredible shrinking mr Zimmerman is now 170!!!!
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@doug:
I see, your racism is rebellion against your parents. Little juvenile but understandable for a white american privlidged son.
I see, your ideoligical and poilitical analysis is also based on the funny white university invented PC ideology which mirrors the one you are suscribing now. A bit juvenile too, but explains a lot why you are so immature. I think it would be good thing to do some growing up, you know, like becoming a man, and leave those juvenile “my bicycle was stolen” hurts behind.
If you are, as you claim to be, a racist misogynist, be one. Don’t pretty it up. Just be what and who you are.
Nobody is holding you here. You have come here willingly and freely. If you can’t take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
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sam
Oh really? It was you guys who claimed that mr Zimmerman was morbidly obese 280. Trayvon was 148lbs. Then you guys announced that he was 160lbs and mr Zimmerman was 240. Then he became 190. Then 180. And the incredible shrinking mr Zimmerman is now 170!!!!
You have a history of lying about what others have said. I haven’t said any of that. If you think otherwise then find it and link it. Otherwise, shut up fool.
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“My moving to the race realist and HBD stance has been a gradual weaning of myself and de propagandizing myself from PC. ”
“race realist” contains 5 letters and a space too much, if you ask me.
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Of course Zimmerman should have been arrested. There is only one group that is vociferously defending Zimmerman. We know who they are and what it’s all about for them.
http://darkush.blogspot.com/2012/03/ten-thoughts-on-trayvon.html
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@ Doug1,
I would have never been able to predict that you came from a top university. Not being disrespectful just being truthful. I would have thought that someone who dedicated a period of time to higher learning would have graduated from childish and tribalistic beliefs of racial superiority. As an adult this led me to conclude that you were a professional newspaper reader & neighbour observer.
Although, the finance part makes sense: the tendency to treat people like statistics, or at least their purported statistics (which are laughable by the way). Then the tendency to reduce them even further into what you believe is their genetic sequencings, and nucleotide bondings of adenosine, cytosine, guanine and thymine is just another symptom of this.
I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
This is why i call race realists insecure. Because they emotionally drive into a subject that they no nearly $h^t @ll about and then read a couple books and then make blind swipes at Black people. Insecure and stupid.
Your attendence at an Ivy league school; the luxury to change specialities mid-way in; the subsequent lucrative earnings are all products of your white privilege. FACE IT.
Instead of thinking HBD – think HD – Human Diversity and epigenesis (we are a product of our family histories and cultures which activate genes based on our conditions).
Human Biodiversity might have flown when you were in higher education but not today. People call it out for the faux science that it is. Come into the 21st century with the rest of us.
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@ JT
Re-reading Doug’s comments to me give me an insight into his mind.
I think that’s why out of all the schmucks here, he catches my attention.
I feel bad for him.
He engrossed himself so deeply into these lies, he’s almost no better than the Jim Jones clan.
Poor fella.
And to come here, of all places, to spew hatred…and have us tear him down brick by brick, us…coloureds, the very folks he deems unsuitable must be rough on him.
He never answered my question as to what was his “moment” when he turned. Very telling.
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@ Truthbetold,
My reading of Doug1 is that he knows what we are saying is true. He just grasping it so tightly because he is afraid of what will happen if he loosens up. As Abagond would put it – the house of cards effect (Fragile White Ego Syndrome.)
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And just to remind, this is a white, male progressive speaking. Yes I will own my ethnicity because it is important to know that there are advocates on the sides of Black people that will not sit idly by well you try to bully them with your concocted IQ B.S
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http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331_1_voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty
More proof that Trayvon remains the victim of this story.
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In weighing recent analyses from audio technicians etc. there’s a huge elephant in the room that doesn’t tend to get talked about much. That elephant doesn’t nearly so much apply to eyewitness, ear witnesses and other sas to what their statements were on the night of the shooting or which have been expanded upon since in a consistent way, or the crime scene evidence taken that night etc.
However it does apply to purported witnesses and audio expert analysts who’ve surfaced long after this became a national cause celebre, particularly it they’re volunteers rather than experts a prosecutor’s office or the FBI etc. have gone to for judgments.
That is the enormous play this case as gotten as a major new Great White Defendant case (even though Zimmerman is obviously in just looking at him a pretty indio Hispanic), or “racism show trial” in the media, due to media bias. That makes anyone who shows up on the Team Trayvon side of evidence some kind of hero, while anyone who adds evidence to Zimmerman’s claim of self defense some kind of villain, certainly in the minds of by far most blacks in America and elsewhere, and also as portrayed by the media, or there’s at least great risk of that. Certainly no white person does himself any public opinion good and takes a risk if not either neutral or on Team Trayvon. Actually probably black people take a greater risk as being seen as uncle Toms. Well nonetheless Zimmerman does have a black friend of ten years standing who’s done so. Gutsy guy. Admirable.
So I do think that has to be taken at least a bit into account in gauging the persuasiveness of audio experts who volunteer their expertise, getting themselves into the limelight. It would be less of a factor I think it audio experts were not volunteers but simply randomly chosen among the those professionally qualified and paid for their judgment by prosecutors or even the media, again if not prejudicially chosen.
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destructure–
Yes sam most definitely does.
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@ Doug1
You are able conjure up any hypothetical contingency for your story about a victimized Zimmerman instead of facing the facts. And in a matter of 2 minutes after i posted the audio experts proof that Trayvon is the one pleading for help.
Can you please break things down to us about what’s going on for you?
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Sam–
Lying again.
Neither I nor anyone else on this blog that I’ve seen have said that Zimmerman was more than 260.
The media were throwing around 250 and 260 for Zimmerman. That’s where I and everyone else who think the evidence points to self defense were getting it so far as I know.
Where did that weight come from? No the police who don’t estimate his weight. Not Zimmerman’s family or friends who’ve recently said he weighed about 170.
Almost certainly from that lying and heavily spinning black lawyer for the Martins, Crump.
It does look like Zimmerman was heavier in 2005 at the time of the mug shot for resisting arrest that the media used heavily for most of their time reporting on this, maybe supplied again by Crump. But that’s just a guess. It’s just a face shot so it was hard to estimate his 5’9 or his black friend says 5’8 from it. It seems to be largely genetic as to how double chinned or not really heavy people get.
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I.e. the photo of him that abagond is running here.
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@dougie, destructure:
😀 Keep on talking racists. Thats what you are good at. You guys piped that how this poor morbidly obese white slob was attacked by mean lean N****r thug. That is a fact.
All what you guys have claimed has been shown to be not true. Sorry about that. But like all racists, you come up with excuses and back track and so on. That is pathetic. That is really sorry A´s stuff.
Just be men, boys. Grow a pair. Be proud of what you are, show some manliness. Be racists. Don’t be whining mommas boys and slithering weasels. Be white racist men! Burn the crosses! Run aroud in white robes. Do something instead act like a punch of cry babies here.
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doug1
It was actually the abagondites who were the most adamant Tray weighed 140 and Zman weighed 240+. They were using it to show he outweighed little tray tray by at least 100 pounds. Others reached the reasonable conclusion that 240 is obese. Which it is. You’re only mistake was not questioning their claims. Don’t let them put the burden for their mistaken claims on you. The claims originated with them. Make them own it.
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@destructure:
I think it was your fellow racist brahms who first claimed that mr Zimmerman was morbidly obese which, of course, he was not at all.
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Pathetic.
Both of you.
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I find it very interesting that BY FAR the fairest minded trying to be reasonable person tending to take the Team Trayvon, Zimmerman probably didn’t act in justifiable self defense side, is self described 16 yo black girl Adeen.
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I think Randy, who’s kind of recently dropped out, destructure and I have been very reasonable in this debate. Fact based reasoning, low level of personal insults in response to vastly more leveled at us and so on.
I think as always Sam is the worst, rabid white Finnish Marxist that he is, did I say rabid?, and brothaman and truthbetold are also pretty bad anti white racists. Abagond is much less so, mostly just observes, and yes, he’s pretty smart I’ll agree, but also pretty damn racialist.
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Deedee–
I’d like to meet you personally. Your honesty and intelligence impresses me.
I might be willing to help you personally.
Might.
I have the means.
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JT–
Of course not.
At least you don’t claim I’m lying, which I’m not.
Honorable you, so far.
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@doug:
“I think as always Sam is the worst, rabid white Finnish Marxist that he is, did I say rabid?”
Let me correct you there; I am not marxist. I am a humanist, Naturally for a guy like yourself that looks like marxim, which you also seem to know zero. Other than that, thank you very much.
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Dougie
“and brothaman and truthbetold are also pretty bad anti white racists. Abagond is much less so, mostly just observes, and yes, he’s pretty smart I’ll agree, but also pretty damn racialist.”
The fact that you singled us out means we’re getting under your thin, impotent, insecure skin. Does being the 1% plus, make you feel less inept? No wonder you’re so scared.
A Negress peasant like me challenging a superior white entity like you…how dare I?!
Stop putting words in our mouths.
I’ve said many time here, I flip flop constantly between contempt and pity for your kind. And your vile words make it soooooo easy.
By the way, when Zimmerman is charged, you’ll get drunk, come here, spew vomitus, get destroyed by us, as you usually do, and crawl back to your hole.
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@Doug111
I think as always Sam is the worst, rabid white Finnish Marxist that he is, did I say rabid?,
What does his nationality have to do with this? Is it the fact that he makes claim to be more of an indigenous WM than you are and is living proof of this I wonder…
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sam
Let me correct you there; I am not marxist. I am a humanist,
Oh yeah? Is that what marxists are calling themselves now?
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Deedee–
I mean zero disrespect to you. I’m also not trying to hit on you as many black males here have recently supposed. I think you’re been so far pretty fair minded and if really only 16 as you’ve said kind of remarkable.
That’s all.
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@doug1111
I am not 16. That was Adeen (sp?). I told Adeen that I was 22 in a comment when she mentioned she was young. 7789 in my username is my actual birthdate (July 7, 1989). No need to be impressed since I’m not some smart kid. Just a well-rounded adult. I didn’t misinterpret your comment as a pass. It was just..off-putting. I am busy with other tasks so I may be late with a response. No worries.
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@bulanik: Must be one of those reindeers here,.. Or those polar bears…
@destructure: No. I guess marxists still call themselves as marxists. You really should ask them.
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sam
I already have. They said they call themselves “humanists” now.
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I feel safe knowing he won’t be following any more suspious black males anymore. He’ll be the pussy he really is, armed or unarmed.
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The Trayvon case will NOT be going to a grand jury. White Republican state attorney Angela Corey will make the decision herself whether to charge Zimmerman.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-04-09/trayvon-martin-grand-jury/54135360/1
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Support FOR Zimmerman according to the poll:
87% Hispanic American
51% white American
47% other American
20% none of the above
10% non-American
5% black American
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@abagond
Saw that today. I knew they wouldn’t get first degree murder because honestly it was not premeditated. Fortunatedly, second-degree isn’t out of the question but Zimmerman would only get something around 30 years according to Florida law.
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Sam–
The weight of both males were originally given to the media on an access journalism basis among those leaning hard to the Team Trayvon side, by the Martin’s civil attorney is this case, who has been spinning it furously, brought in Al Sharpton, etc. The weights of both were given out by the spin meister but not the height of either since that wouldn’t boster the impression he was creating which formed the whole emotional surrond and frame of this case for the first two or three weeks. It was given by his incredibly misleading ass along with pictures of a cute boyish 13yo Trayvon rather than his 17 yo football playing athletic self at the time of the shooting.
The police gave Trayvon’s height at 6′ and weight at 160. They gave Zimmerman’s at 5’8′ but left out his weight. His lawyer and black friend gave his weight at the time as being about 170.
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@Doug111
”I find it very interesting that BY FAR the fairest minded trying to be reasonable person tending to take the Team Trayvon, Zimmerman probably didn’t act in justifiable self defense side, is self described 16 yo black girl Adeen”
I really don’t get what you are trying to impy? What do you mean? I am really sixteen and young not subhuman.
How am I the fairest minded here?I don’t know if this is true about you but I just don’t believe in putting other races down or anything. I am sick of race being one of the main issues in America when the color of one’s skin shouldn’t matter.
Honestly I wanted George Zimmerman to get arrested and go to jail. No one knows what happened and how things went. I think Zimmerman didn’t mean to kill the kid. I believe he was acting out of self defense according to that law in Florida that said that you can shoot someone out ofself defense. I believe. I just think he wanted to protect himself not kil the kid but sadly Trayvon is dead.
You don’t understand that the Trayvon Martin case hit home for Blacks like me because Black males are the ones who are always targetted by police and all.
Don’t be mad at me when I said that Zimmerman didn’t mean to kill the kid because it wasn’t premediated murder. I think Zimmerman was trying to protect himself but not in a very good way.
@DeeDee
Yeah I really think that it was weird that Doug thought you were 16 like me. lol! I am NOT mocking Doug in any way and respect his opinions. Anyways I am upset that the case didn’t makeit to grand jury.
Does anyone think that people would react differently if Trayvon Martin was White? Would Zimmerman be arrested? Would things would be a whole lot different. If you think so, comment.
Honestly I don’t know if things would have been different if Trayvon was White. I just don’t like to think about race anymore and hearing about racism makes me sick.
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FYI Abagond,
Just now on our local news (Florida), Zimmermans attorney’s are holding a press conference to announce that they are quitting and why they are quitting.
Apparently, Zimmerman has been going “rogue” and doing things he was told not to do by his attorney’s and he decided to go against their advice and do it anyway, so the Attorney’s are quitting.
I just don’t know why they felt the need to announce it on TV, but it just shows how well Zimmerman follows directions.
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@Adeen, self-described Hispanic killing a “real white American”? Of course, things would have gone different, because racist Zimmy would not have been half as suspicious.
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^^^Can’t wait to see how this is spun.
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@ Abagond,
That is depressing. Yet again, the typical excuses won out instead of pursuing any real justice . This is why people can’t keep saying that race has no bearing on these sorts of situations.
@ Doug,
Again, what does the sort of pictures shown have to do with anything? It’s not misleading, because that was a picture of him, and that’s what he looked like. No one tells white parents to only show current, same year pictures of their kids when they’re murdered, and for good reason.
@ Adeen,
Zimmerman was a man with a past history of violence, even going so far as to attack a police man, but he had enough connections to get by. Self defense is always a questionable claim to make, but it is especially off when you claim it after shooting someone to death who was unarmed and you were told not to follow. Even cops get some scrutiny for doing that, so why shouldn’t a civilian?
It’s one thing to shoot a man trying to break into your home. It’s another to shoot a teenager in a public area because you didn’t like the look of him and couldn’t leave him alone.
Unfortunately, the very fact that you are a young black woman means you don’t have the luxury of ignoring race. Look at the case of Rekia Boyd.
In regards to whether or not things would have changed had their color been reversed ? Things would have gone differently. For one, Zimmerman would have been arrested off the bat like he should have been, and odds are Trayvon wouldn’t have had his life picked apart. I am also sure that this would have gone differently.
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The attorneys have said they are quitting for now, based on their prior client no longer returing their calls, texts, emails, for the last two days, rather than that they are done with him. As in if he wants them back they’re back and stand by what they”ve so far said about him and the case. Thier job so far has been to represent him to the media and to shield him from talking alone to prosecutors. Zimmerman has for the last two days made both diffucult and actively tried to curcumvent the later, and talk to the special prosecutor’s office alone. That is very strange.
However my initial response as a former (well technically still) lawyer is really? Two days?????
It does seem that Zimmerman is going through some kind of melt down. The whole idea that he killed Trayvon out of cold blooded don’t give a rip extreme racism seems even more ridiculous to me now.
I think Zimmerman is at least a bit mentally dirranged at the moment.
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@ Doug1111,
To you, the most aberrant thing about Zimmerman’s behavior so far is the temporary break in communication he has taken with his defense team?
Maybe Zimmerman has a conscience afterall and he is undermining his own defense ? We can only hope!
It would seem that relying on law enforcement to enact justice and detain Zimmerman is pointless.
So maybe he will finally face the judicial system himself for his killing of an unarmed teen.
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^^^ Just to be clear, this comment above was made by me, JT. It was an accident.
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George Zimmerman should go to jail!
@Ace
I know that I have to watch out for myself more because I am a young Black woman. I know that I can’t avoid race or racial situations because of the color of my skin and ethnicity. People will hate me for that but when I become a famous writer, I will give them another reason to hate me for.
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Ace:
Here again we see another unfortunate example of the lack of rational thinking regarding this case, and by proxy, a distressing number of race-related issues.
The available evidence suggests that Zimmerman shot Martin because he was being attacked. If anyone has any evidence to the contrary, please present it.
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@ Adeen,
Exactly.
A young, pretty black woman is often the first person to be patronized and condescended, especially in the professional world. Just be careful not to let those people tell you that your viewpoints are “irrational” or that you are somehow less than because of your skin color. And definitely don’t let them manipulate you into thinking you have to avoid achieving that success you wish to achieve because it would go against their racist stereotyping of you.
@ Randy,
So because someone doesn’t agree with your idea that Zimmerman’s shooting was justified (even though the EVIDENCE you speak of says that he was told not to follow him, which he did), they’re displaying a lack of rational thinking?
How come whenever someone says “rational” they seem to mean “think in ways that favor a white-male-centric point of view above all others”?
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“Randy,
The available evidence suggests that Zimmerman shot Martin because he was being attacked. If anyone has any evidence to the contrary, please present it.”
Randy, there is no Evidence to suggest Zimmerman was attacked first by Trayvon….this so called evidence came from Zimmerman himself–his version of events that night–his WORDS…that is not evidence…that is Zimmerman telling his side of the story…
Trayvon has yet to tell his side and never will be able to tell his version of the events…
this is a case of “he say / she say”….there is no Evidence supporting Zimmerman’s reasoning for pulling the trigger, everything so far is supposition.
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@ Linda,
I’ve come to realize that to Randy, “evidence” means “what the whitest, most racist, person in the room says, all facts be damned”.
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Ace:
The 911 operator told Zimmerman, “we don’t need you to do that.” I am not aware of any legal standard or precedent which automatically deprives Zimmerman of his right to self-defense by not following such a suggestion/directive.
For your premise to be valid, you would need to make that claim.
Personally, I have no idea if Zimmerman was justified in shooting Martin, and unless you’re privy to evidence which has not been released to the general public up to this point, neither do you.
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Linda:
I completely agree.
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“Randy,
The 911 operator told Zimmerman, “we don’t need you to do that.” I am not aware of any legal standard or precedent which automatically deprives Zimmerman of his right to self-defense by not following such a suggestion/directive.’
What right to “self-defense”?
Was Zimmerman in danger when the 911 operator said, “we don’t need you to do that.” ?
was he in the process of doing something or being someplace where his life was in danger at the time he was speaking to the 911 operator?
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Yes. Your claim of “I was attacked so I was forced to shoot him” becomes invalid when you are told not to follow the very person you shot later on. You can’t just will things out of existence because they don’t agree with your habit of favoring “facts” which support your personal bias.
You aren’t the “rational”, “unbiased” party, so don’t pretend to be.
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Linda said:
Ace said:
Linda and Ace,
You’re both claiming that by ignoring the 911 operator’s statement of “we don’t need you to do that”, Zimmerman then forfeited any potential future justification for self-defense regardless of what events subsequently took place.
If you’re aware of a legal standard in Florida law which supports that claim, then please share it.
Otherwise, the matter of the self-defense justification would seem to hinge on how the physical altercation began, which as Linda has stated, thus far lacks any 3rd party corroboration.
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@ Randy
In florida, Stand your Ground becomes null and void if YOU are the agressor. You cannot claim self-defense if you are the one who approaches and pick an argument/fight with someone.
Under Stand your Ground laws, Trayvon was in the right.
Please stop pretending you don’t understand what I’ve just said.
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http://www.timesonline.com/news/national/martin-case-prosecutor-to-make-announcement-soon/article_2f92e448-b7ec-59e0-95c6-cd6317c3e4b4.html
72 hours before Prosecutor Angela Corey will make a statement on the case.
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http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gWj40NWjRZ9NbPzFLwjATF21BG0A?docId=787a077e14304b86a063cf7b5f69f505
“Sonner and colleague Hal Uhrig said they had not spoken with Zimmerman since Sunday. Since then, they said, they had learned that he spoke to Corey’s office and to Fox TV host Sean Hannity without consulting them, in an attempt to give his side of the shooting. They said Corey refused to talk to Zimmerman without his attorneys’ consent and Hannity wouldn’t tell them what was discussed.
Zimmerman also set up his own website even as the lawyers were creating one for him at his request. Zimmerman said on his website that he wants “to ensure my supporters they are receiving my full attention without any intermediaries.” The site allows visitors to give Zimmerman money for living expenses and legal bills.”
Zimmerman is nice making htings go into his favor. Making a site and trying to talk DIRECTLY to the prosecuter without your lawyers…lokking bad.
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@ Deedee7789
This is a mockery of the American justice system.
And Americans wonder why the world hates them…
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*nice = not htings = things lokking = looking …D: 8pm and my typos go up T.T
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http://therealgeorgezimmerman.com/
Does that seem like text from a man who has PTSD (suggested by Zimmerman’s former legal team)? This is Zimmerman’s own moderated, created website. Updated on APril 10th..
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“Randy,
You’re both claiming that by ignoring the 911 operator’s statement of “we don’t need you to do that”, Zimmerman then forfeited any potential future justification for self-defense regardless of what events subsequently took place.”
Randy, I said no such things..my words are real clear, please don’t interpret for me.
My question to you is: at the time Zimmerman was speaking to the 911 operator, was his life in danger?
Was Trayvon right in front of him, up in his face when he was on the phone?
No Trayvon wasn’t, so You Randy, cannot link the term “self defense” to Zimmermans conversation with the 911 operator.
The only person claiming Zimmerman was “justified” and acting in self defense is Zimmerman..he can say anything he wants..he still has to justify why he pulled the trigger….he say/she say
What the 911 operator represents is an outline to events that lead up to the Zimmerman pulling the trigger….all of these events leading up to the actual altercations paints a picture of Zimmermans frame of mind and actions prior to his face-to-face with Trayvon before he pulled the trigger.
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truthbetold said:
That’s a salient point, and I appreciate that you shared it. According to the law, the following criteria invalidates the right to use deadly force:
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant;
Does one party approaching another party and asking, “what are you doing here?” imply that the first party has “provoke[d] the use of force”?
I don’t have the definitive answer to that question, but I suspect that the answer is “no”. I’m not aware of any precedent which allows you to attack and beat a person to death just because they approached you in the street and asked you a question.
Also, one witness states that Martin was on top of Zimmerman while delivering blows, which would allow Zimmerman to claim that he was unable to escape, satisfying exemption “a” of section “2” even if it were determined that he “provoked” an attack.
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@Randy
http://video.msnbc.msn.com/newsnation/46811800/#46811800
Around 1:30 mark a co-creator of the “Stand Your Ground” Law mentioned that pursuing someone makes the law no longer applicable in that case.
He explains that being in your space (car, house, etc.) is where that law would be effective. It is speculation that Zimmerman was being beaten so badly that he was going to die. He injuries indicative of a fight do not neccesarily imply a brutal beating. His words are not to be placed at high esteem until supporting evidence is formed to back it. Other wise Zimmerman’s own statement can be scrutinized. Lets just wait it out because there is no definite evidence that were are aware of for if Zimmerman was defending himself from deadly harm or not.
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@Ace
”Exactly.
A young, pretty black woman is often the first person to be patronized and condescended, especially in the professional world. Just be careful not to let those people tell you that your viewpoints are “irrational” or that you are somehow less than because of your skin color. And definitely don’t let them manipulate you into thinking you have to avoid achieving that success you wish to achieve because it would go against their racist stereotyping of you. ”
I know the very first sentence as a fact because of what I went through last year at my Catholic high school. A lot of people were mean to me particularly a lot of the White students. Most of the Caucasian girls made fun of me and didn’t want me in their groups. They said that I was weird, different and that I am ”outspoken”. There was a lot of rumors and gossip about me when I was there and my mother came to pick me up and she told me the woman at the front desk,(I am not going to tell you her name but I can’t stand her) told her that I was outspoken like there was something wrong with it. My mother figured that the woman at the front desk heard this from the students. This woman who told my mother this was a huge gossip and a very mean woman. And the Caucasian guys would tease me too.
Not all of the WHITES at my Catholic school were like that, some were very nice but enough of them were. Whenever wanted to speak my opinion, they told me to shut up. The blond can speak her opinion though. Not even the teachers liked me speaking out like that. I wasn’t even ghetto or loud either but speaking my opinion on things and they thought that I was being sassy. I was not and never intended to come off that way.
Some of the White students were nice and all. But they weren’t enough of them. I am not bitter towards Whites. They are just like everyone else. In fact, the Black guys in my grade always teased me and joined in in the teasings from the Caucasian students. No one really stood up for me and said, Hey, leave this girl alone besides a group of seniors. No one in my grade really. I left because I had to and now I go to a public school.
Please they better get justice for Trayvon and put that crooked Zimmerman in jail because I swear, I am going to make this case another reason why I want to leave this country. Peace.
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**********
Typical white racial framing here… the black person NEVER gets the benefit of the doubt. Randy’s subjective bias is evident in HIS belief that the unarmed lad was attempting to beat the armed adult to death. Um, um, um – smh.
_________
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Is that the same witness that stated Z was screaming for help??
And, was that before, or after, the Sanford police entered the crime scene and began coaching/correcting the witness(es) – telling them that they were mistaken because .. well .. they really didn’t see what they thought they saw.
Hmmmm… darn .. I forget, what that’s called??
Witness tampering???
Randy, just give it up. Everyone here (except you, apparently) clearly sees you for who and what you are – a pseudo/pretend phony intellectual troll ALWAYS pedaling your own brand of very subjective BS.
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@ Randy,
I’m not aware of any precedent that allows you to shoot an unarmed person in a public space because they didn’t feel safe with you following and asking them strange questions.
Your bias is telling.
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Zimmy gets charged!!!
http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-charged-trayvon-martin-killing/story?id=16115469
At least, that message reached me from Dayton, Ohio. I like the name of that state.
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Blimey!
Since they claim they can’t really show racial intent, which is laughable, is guess manslaughter is the way to go, no?
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@truthbetold
Manslaughter or second degree murder are both possibilties but it will most likely be manslaughter. I would be surprised if Zimmerman was charged with
second degree.
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http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/11/us-usa-florida-shooting-zimmerman-idUSBRE83A1ET20120411
ZIMMERMAN ARRESTED> SECOND DEGREE MURDER CHARGE.
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Just get Zimmerman’behind in jail! That is all I want.
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@Adeen
The police have Zimmerman now. Not sure if he is in a cell or not.
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Awesome. Finally something done halfway right. I doubt this would have happened had people just stayed quiet.
I hope he gets a trial while this is still fresh in everyone’s minds.
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@DeeDee7789
Hallejuah! Shoot,they should have ”had” Zimmerman the day he shot Trayvon Martin. And they better put him in a cell too!
Has anyone heard of Emmit Till
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@ deedee7789
I want to feel happy but how sad that you have to go on tv, daily, to preach, beg, cajole, threaten, to have a murderer arrested?
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@ Truth
Same here.
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http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/george-zimmerman-face-charges-trayvon-martin-death-reports-article-1.1059897
Finally.
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@ everyone
This case is and will be a stain in America’s justice system forever.
Like Emmett Till, we’ll never forget this and what it means for countless blacks in the U.S.
I hope those who preach of how “fair and just” this country is, will take a deeper harder look at the truth. That we still have a long way to go.
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@ Truthbetold,
Couldn’t say that better myself. What I wonder is, what sort of dialogue will this case bring about now?
I think this will always be a concrete modern example of how justice has only slightly evolved since the Emmett Till murder.
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Randy, just give it up. Everyone here (except you, apparently) clearly sees you for who and what you are – a pseudo/pretend phony intellectual troll ALWAYS pedaling your own brand of very subjective BS.
Amen! So much for these clowns who vehemently defended this goof. Now they will claim that this turd has not been tried yet in a court of ‘law’, hence one cannot draw any conclusions until this is done. I got all your arguments down pat, clowns! A 2nd degree murder charge eh? They must think they have enough evidence to pursue this charge.
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Ok,it sounds like news that is one step in the right direction
Really nice picture up at the top , Abagond, that is courage
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I really admire the gentlmen in that picture facing off the redneck police….
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@Truthbetold
I agree with you.
@Abagond
Thanks for the information. I am also sadden by Emmit Till’ death
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noofficer of the law has the right to tell you to not keep your neighborhood safe by merely following someone. being followed when you are wearing the regalia of a gang thug is to be expected if you are in a gated community. nobody has the right to put their hands on another person for merely following them. then the young man followed zimmerman back to his truck and attacked him. there is not reason to believe based on martins profile that he was not packing a gun. nobody here playing monday morning quarterback knows what they would relly do in zimmermans situation. anytimei I see someone out of place (no matter their race) they are questioned in a friendly manner and followed out of my neighborhood to make sure they don’t just hang around and sell drugs or case peoples homes for robbery.
dress like and act like a thug expect to be treated like one. one of the problems with this case is that the perception of both the people involved have been severly injured by media’s manipulation and not using current phot’s of either person. martin was a thug and thrown out of school for drug possesion , vs zimmerman who was exonerated of any charges that caused him to be photographed as a criminal.
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Herneith:
My position on the matter can be summarized by the statement, “I don’t know what happened and neither do you.”
Special prosecutor Angela Corey undoubtedly has access to evidence which the public lacks. The filing of charges against Zimmerman doesn’t redeem the fallacious and non-rational opinions about this case which have been shared on this blog and elsewhere.
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@Miguel Miquel
…D:, well you made your stance clear although on what evidence to support I’m not sure. Seems like you are drawing a lot of conclusions from information that was never meant to be made public(Like the suspension for a baggie, not actual drugs by the way). But let’s move on from all the bashing regardless of if its about Zimmerman or Martin and just hope that the jurors make the best decision.
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yes dee dee a court of law where justice is served on a regular basis , the words beyond the shadow of a doubt come into play, as well as the name twanna brawly I”m not saying zimm is innocent, but untill he proven guilty we as a society have the responsiblity to not tarnish his reputation in case he is.
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twanna brawly..I just looked that person up and I was shocked that she would make up false allegations against 3 white men. That is really sad because she could have destroyed the lives of 3 innocent men.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-17684429
In the link is a more recent photo of Zimmerman and his lawyer says he is lucid. It’s good that he isn’t a emotional reck becuase he needs to tell his side of the story to the jury and judge. I just hope he doesn’t try to change anything since evidence that he may not have been aware of will show up in the court. It would only make him dishonest and more likely to go to jail.
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What irks me is Al Sharpton jumping in front of the cameras and saying, “This isn’t a time for high-fiving.” Uh, no shit, Sherlock…an arrest is meaningless. I’ll celebrate if Zimmerman is adequately punished for his crime – and no, the death penalty isn’t the answer. I feel that Trayvon’s parents should be the ones to decide the ultimate punishment…indeed, any parent of a murdered child should be allowed that satisfaction.
I’ve always been one who wishes that Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson would STFU, personally.
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@ Miguel, Miguel,
Quick question:
Why should someone be questioned in a neighborhood by someone who is not law enforcement? When I see a stranger follow me and ask me where I live I think “stranger danger”, not “Gee, let me tell him where I’m staying so that he can follow me there.”
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Ace, absolutly !!
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@ sepultura13
I know right! It’s like they want to be the new MLK Jr. and be the mouthpiece for the AA community. They’ve had their reign during the civil rights movement. They both need to go sit down somewhere.
So glad about the arrest though, 45 days later (which is a crying shame). Now the waiting game begans!
*It still has to get past a judge on a motion to dismiss that his lawyer(s) will surely file.*
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@ mashiara4life:
Exactly. The waiting game of the in-justice system, which consists of baby steps and glacial movement!
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I don’t know how other people run their lives but if this happened in my culture, the question would be to the parents: Why do you let your kids out in the middle of the night?! Don’t you teach your kids any better?
I was raise to know that if you go out that late, you are inviting trouble. If it is such a big issue in the Black community that they are profiled, then why go out and put themselves in a situation when they could clearly avoid it.
I don’t know what happened, but all I know is that if I was Trayvon & Zimmerman died, I would like to be innocent until proven guilty.
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Fernando-
Where did you get the info that the shooting occurred in the middle of the night? And on the fact the Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty, your are legally correct, yet everyone can express their opinions where people like it or not. It happens in every trial and this is no different. FYI don’t victim blame; you are indirectly saying if you saw a kid in the middle of the night you would shoot him because it is his fault for being profiled.
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And to all the people who always complain about the police & the judicial system, until you are put in a situation in where you truely depend on the police or courts, you can’t see how good the system really is.
I’ve been thru both sides of the law and the system works… if it didn’t work for you, then you were probably up to no good.
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@ Fernando,
Well no, most people are taught not to talk to weird strangers who follow them and ask them questions. And most adults are taught not to follow other people around if they aren’t qualified to do so.
It’s not Trayvon or his parent’s fault that other people choose to profile them, and they are not required to live some life of solitude because someone can’t control their biases. You’re seriously saying that if a young man walked home from the mall or something after the movie (where he lived only ten minutes away) you’d think it would be okay for him to be followed or shot because he was profiled? Victim blaming just is in such bad taste, come on, we’re better than that, right?
The man is guilty (there’s no question that he shot an unarmed teenager after being told not to follow him and having a history of violent felony behavior), there’s no “innocent” here, and we all know that if Zimmerman was dead, there’d be no “innocent till proven guilty”, Trayvon would already be in jail and charged from he start. That’s where the frustration lies.
@ Silentrerun,
I was wondering that too.
Also, very good points there.
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@ Fernando,
Also, my great uncle was an NYPD cop, and he sees a problem with the justice system. Are you implying that people who complain about being treated unfairly by the law, even in blatant cases of subpar treatment, are all doing something wrong? Because I’m sure a “hero cop” would be interested to know that you think he earns the treatment he witnessed.
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silentreturn-
My appologies, When I first heard the news a week or so ago, they said that Trayvon was walking around at 11pm. I double checked and your right, it was at 7pm so it was earlier.
And I don’t care if everyone expresses their opnion, I am not attacking what anyone said. I am expressing mine, so don’t get so mad.
And since you feel I am indirect, let me tell you what I tell my kids. If you act like a thug and dress like a thug, I will consider you a thug. I would shoot a thug if he threatens me
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Ace-
Don’t make it that it’s one or the other. I’m not stupid, I know there are some that misuse the system, but to say that the whole system is bad or corrupt is simply childish. But I worked with a lot of officers and I look back to the trouble I cause when I was younger and I know that I did cause them. Everyone is in control of their lives and to always blame others is just pathetic.
When I was younger, I was walking towards a group of boys that look like thugs (yes, I profiled). I chose to cross the street so I wouldn’t get my butt kicked. It was my right to walk that same sidewalk as they did and if they hurt me, it would be them doing something wrong. But I didn’t let it happen that way and I am still here today. All I’m saying is that kids should be taught some street smarts and why attract trouble when you don’t need to.
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Ace- I’m reading your prior post and you talk about facts and justice is not being served. Then you say that “The man is guilty” when he hasn’t been tried yet… I guess you believe yourself above the law.
You aren’t the “rational”, “unbiased” party, so don’t pretend to be.
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Everyone- This is what I believe:
I’m sure that Trayvon was a smart kid and If Zimmerman was a bigger tougher looking thug, Trayvon would have never messed with him. Trayvon made the choice & felt he could control the situation, then he paid the price.
And I don’t care about Zimmerman, he was just a person that got caught up in it. He made a choice to carry a gun & now he has to answer for it.
Everyone made their choice and everyone has paid or will pay the price for their actions. So please becareful what choices you make.
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“Fernando,
I would shoot a thug if he threatens me”
And most people would shoot a grown man who kills a juvenile.
Curious, what is Zimmerman going to be proven “innocent” of…is he going to be proven innocent of pulling the trigger in cold blood, he certainly is “guilty” of killing someone…
the courts are just going to give his killing a “label” …it could be “manslaughter” or “murder in 2nd degree” or “murder in self defense”, then the court will decide his punishment or no punishment, either way he still pulled the trigger and killed someone.
I don’t think this crime is racial, nor can you say that this kid was “acting” or “dressing” like a thug, since Zimmerman stated that Trayvon was walking (and in the rain too)–so please explain how Trayvon was acting like a “thug”
I guess when I see white or latino teenagers with tattoos and with their pants hanging off their butts, I should get my gun ready too because for sure, these little “thugs” are going to rob me because they are being loud and obnoxious…you know, I just described groups of teenage white girls at the mall too, so I should put them on my “thug” list.
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“Fernando,
I’m sure that Trayvon was a smart kid and If Zimmerman was a bigger tougher looking thug, Trayvon would have never messed with him. Trayvon made the choice & felt he could control the situation, then he paid the price.”
How was Trayvon trying to control the situation?
Please explain why you believe Trayvon was a thug who was messing with Zimmerman?
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Fernando:
How is wearing a hoodie thuggish? Even more, how is wearing a hoodie to protect yourself from the rain thuggish? I saw that you said you didn’t know much about the case… maybe you should read up on it more?
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Anastasia
100% agree, hoodies are very practical in terms of clothing. It is hardly a ‘thug’ thing. Why is it even considered a ‘black’ thing?
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Finally something at least. Hope this will not turn into a circus.
@fernando:
I think it is pretty weird that in the Land of the Freedom you think that it is ok to shoot people whose clothing or fashion you do not like. Also I find it pretty weird that there are certain times when you are not supposed to go out. You say that anyone who goes out at night is taking a risk and responsible him/herself.
Does that include nurses, paramedics and the police too? Astronomists, scientists doing research, truckdrivers, night cafe waiteresses, people in bars and night clubs etc.?
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@ Anastasia
Something I learned about America:
When a new trend comes out that is fancied by the black community, bandanas, high-top sneakers, backwards facing hats and let’s not forget teeth “grills”, it goes unnoticed by the white public UNTIL whites start doing it. ( Funny how they blame blacks but still want to emulate our look.)
Then it becomes a “black thing” to be vilified and stigmatized.
You see, blacks paved the way for many trends in pop culture. From the coveted sweatsuit that J.Lo likes to show off her round, African-like posterior, to Michael Jackson’s red leather jacket, to the low-sung, almost-falling-off pant look( I don’t approve of this sloppy look).
The hoodie, was something we ALL wore; it’s warm, comfortable and easy to throw on. It went mostly unnoticed til rappers made it ” in fashion” then it became vilified. Now the hoodie-look is on trial as a thug apparel responsible for a teenagers murder. ONLY IN AMERICA!!!! Once again proving that white supremacy and opinion is the only opinion that counts.
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That’s not undoubtedly true at all. Not even close. You just want to believe in the system. Prosecutors often behave in a very political fashion and the pressures on Corey were immense.
She had HUGE political reasons to file serious charges. Blacks were openly threatening massive property and maybe life destroying riots all over Florida if she didn’t.
Famed criminal lawyer and Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz has said that he thinks the charging affidavit of Corey was so weak that any good judge would throw it out. He also thinks that if she had strong evidence the public doesn’t have she would have presented it in the affidavit.
Corey seems to have based her charging Zimmerman mostly upon Martin’s mother saying the screaming voice was that of her son, and Trayvon’s girlfriend DeeDee’s statements about what she heard on a cell phone call with Trayvon just before the fighting began. Both are obviously very self interested and both are contradicted by other testimony some of which is not so far as we know self interested, particularly that of John.
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@ Fernando,
I’m ongoing going off of what you said. I’m sorry if that bothered you, but I don’t like when people act like anyone who doesn’t view the system as 100% pure and just somehow gets told that they “deserve” the problems they have. You opened up that strawman in the first place, forgive me for taking offense. My family has served this country since we were IN this country in some way shape or form, and if someone like me is profiled, or arrested for something someone else would walk for, damn right it’s the system. It’s not blaming other people for one’s problems if people just want a fair, more consistent system. It’s not like punishment has been applied fairly or equally. If my friend can go to jail for the same thing I could get probation for, it’s not her fault if she’s upset about that.
That is an understandable point of view except for the fact that you should not profile. It’s not fair. They don’t look at you and all think, “Oh, let me rob this one particular, special man.” odds are they just want to get from point a to point be. It comes off, honestly, like your trying to blame Trayvon for his death when Zimmerman was the one with the gun, who chose to profile him, follow him, and have his hand in an altercation that ended with Trayvon being killed. He is at fault for this, it’s not Trayvon’s fault that other people couldn’t get their biases in check and act according to the law or in a professional manner.
And hoodies are not “thug attire”, I wear it all the time. Skaters wear it all the time . Old men and women wear hoodies often. It’s not fair to pull it out to use as some way a shooting victim was at fault. It just isn’t fair.
“Ace- I’m reading your prior post and you talk about facts and justice is not being served. Then you say that “The man is guilty” when he hasn’t been tried yet… I guess you believe yourself above the law.
You aren’t the “rational”, “unbiased” party, so don’t pretend to be.:”
Also, he is guilty. He pulled the trigger and killed him. He’s guilty of killing him. That is what I mean. He is guilty of killing him so there is no “innocent” here. The boy is dead, he’s alive, and he shot him. Unlike Zimmerman, no I doubt believe I am above the law. That’s why I would hope he’d be found guilty of Second Degree murder like he should be.
@ Doug111,
Bullshit.
Blacks did not threaten property damage or rioting to get a charge. And why the hell are Trayvon’s mother and girlfriend being classified as “self-interested”? Are you kidding me? How are they any more self-interested than John? Because they’re black and want justice?
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“Doug1111,
Blacks were openly threatening massive property and maybe life destroying riots all over Florida if she didn’t.”
Doug, that’s not true. I live in Florida. People were upset but by NO WAY was there going to be a riot all over Florida..Sanford would have had problems because of the Black Panther movement being there as well as the KKK…both groups made there presence known and both groups were saying inflammatory things to try to get people upset.
I wish white people on the internet would stop saying this BS, there is no racial hatred going on in Florida…people are protesting because they wanted an arrest, Florida is too laid back for that mess.
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@ Linda,
It’s easy to blame everything on blacks. The actions of one or a small group of black people always reflect on the actions of all black people. So when they see the New Black Panther Party they suddenly represent all black people (but the KKK and Neo-Nazis down there apparently don’t represent the minds of white people). Even if no one was rioting. Doug will still find a way to make up something (or read a racist publication that will). People like that can’t get over their “black conspiracy” nonsense. Even if black people were wiling to riot down there, I highly doubt they would be able to force a mainly white justice system to charge someone just because they said so.
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You just want to believe in the system.
I see you are back and in fine fettle Doug! How was your vacation? Did you see Bliff or Randy?
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@ Herneith,
Doug1111 is crushed that his hero, George Zimmerman, has finally been booked. So he has decided to let all that tension out on Abagond’s members. Isnt that fair of him to take out all of his issues on POC. His inadequacies. His delusions … the accusations that Blacks are to blame for why Zimmerman was arrested in the first place is particularly hideous.
I have concluded that Doug1111 is in a psychological bizarro world. Everything is morally inverted when it comes to people like Doug1111. Which means that he thinks that what he is says and does is noble, intellectual & necessary. When most people know that it is not.
@ Doug1111
There are many reasons why today’s population embraces a multicultural society – because we believe in multiculturalism, our generation (the youth of today) are going to work to address all the damage that your generation and the preceding generations have enacted on POC and especially Blacks and First Nations groups. We will do our best to make sure that many of your hateful and unjust traditions go extinct with you and the other dinosaurs that have tried to continue these beliefs. We will fight them tooth and nail and work toward better forms of education that ensure we are enlightened about the evils of race realism and other forms of bigotry. And future generations will follow in suit. You and your brethren are trying to swim up the Niagara Falls with your race realism. The sooner you realize that, the better for all.
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Wow so much comments!
Where to start,……………?
George Zimmerman was recently charged for second degree murder. I am glad he was charged for something but I think it should be manslaughter. I don’t think he meant to kill Trayvon intentionally because they were fighting and Zimmerman felt the need to defend himself. But I still think what he did was wrong.
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Way to go Linda, bringing in the real point of veiw in Florida, co sign with Ace (good in depth), Truthbetold, Sam , JT, Herneith, Adeen, Anastasia, Silentreturn
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Alan Dershowitz, Harvard Law professor and probably the most famous criminal defense lawyer in the country having read that the special prosecutors affadavit claiming probable cause that Zimmerman commited second degree murder without a valid defense of self defense thinks it submitted insufficient evidence to do so and that any good judge will throw it out once there’s a first hearing on it.
http://video.msnbc.msn.com/hardball/47034974#47034974
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Oh, Douglas, what will you do when they throw the book at him?
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truthbetold–
Won’t happen. There might be a hung jury due to blacks on it, but there will never be a conviction including for manslaughter, unless important new evidence surfaces.
It’s the lynch mob nature of the lefty MSM press whipped up (after allowing themselves to get spun so much by Marlin lawyer Crump in the beginning) that I so object to here.
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I still feel that second degree murder is the perfect charge. I also like that Corey did not lay out all of the facts/evidence in the affidavit because the public doesn’t need to know all the evidence until the trial begins and procedes. Too much evidence has already been “leaked”. Since all of the evidence hasn’t been presented then it would be foolish to just toss the case without fully exploring the case. It is better to have an innocent man proven to be so in court then to allow a guilty man to go free.
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deedee–
Under Flordia law Corey has to present ALL the evidence her office has gathered to defence counsel beginning no later than 15 days after charging Zimmerman, all WELL before trial, except in the case of very later discovered evidence, and then very promptly after receiving that.
I doubt if this will go to trail before a year from now. Defense will want to let passions die down. Probably will be a change in venue too.
There’s a good chance it will be dismissed in pre-trial motions too, due to the weakness of the evidence against a credible case of self defense so far presented or I think that the prosecution will be able to present.
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At the risk of speaking for others, I think people are expecting Zimmerman’s case to be bungled in the courtroom as it has been through the various stages of the investigation (including the 40+ days it took for a light skinned to get arrested for killing a Black skinned youth. who killed a Black youth).
Two positive signs though for the outcome of this case:
First off – the easiest charge to find Zimmerman guilty of is manslaughter – yet the crown attorney chose 2nd degree murder. Clearly there is a reason why she thought that Zimmerman could be found guilty. I think the evidence that she is privy to is great enough to discredit zimmerman’s angry Black male life-or-death shooting fallacy.
second off – the case could have already been dismissed by the judge and Zimmerman could have been sent home free if the judge didn’t think there were merit to the case against him.
Nonetheless, I think people are already prepared for this trial to be undone by those that dragged their feet in this investigation (is it true that they tested for drugs and alochol in Trayvon’s body but not on Zimmerman? http://www.wtsp.com/news/article/248756/19/Attorney-Trayvon-Martin-treated-like-a-suspect).
I wouldn’t be surprised if he gets off scot free – which will truly remind of the deficencies of the judicial system as oriented towards Blacks. If that hasn’t already been emphasized throughout the subsequent month to his death.
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@ JT
If Zimmerman gets off, I fear what may happen.
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….There might be a hung jury due to blacks on it,…
?
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“Doug,
due to the weakness of the evidence against a credible case of self defense so far presented”
Doug, I must have missed it.
What was that “credible evidence” that backs up Zimmermans version of the events?
I know that Zimmerman Claimed Trayvon attacked him, but that’s his side of the story (self-interest)
and I know that there was an eyewitness that said they saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman and another eyewitness (not ear, but eye) said that they saw Zimmerman on top of Trayvon (before he was shot), so
If there are actual forensic or any other evidence that is known, please share.
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Jt said is it true that they tested for drugs and alochol in Trayvon’s body but not on Zimmerman?
The body of a victim has to be tested for drugs and alcohol inorder to know all possible contributers to the death of the individual. I am disappointed that Zimmerman was not tested, however. The police literally took only his word on the matter without throughly investigating the incident when it occured. That was mishandling of the case imo.
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JT,
I wouldn’t be surprised if he gets off scot free – which will truly remind of the deficencies of the judicial system as oriented towards Blacks”
Linda says,
I don’t know, I think people are being too cynical when it comes to the judicial system.
Even though many Zimmerman supporters are making statements, such as, “you don’t have to legally follow the directions of the police dispatcher”, that may be true but that doesn’t mean the State of Florida and the judicial system have the same point of view.
also, precedent counts.
In Miami, recently, a judge convicted a defendent who was using “stand your ground” as his defense.
From what I have read in our local papers, many policemen and courts (Florida) don’t like this law, so you might see the Courts start to send clear messages to Florida residents that they cannot use this SYG law to get out of killing someone.
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Hi, Truthbetold:
I agree! You said it so much better than I ever could, lol. It really makes me upset that people like Fernando, Geraldo Rivera and so many others are claiming that wearing a hoodie is now ‘thuggish’. Uh? I have been going on college visits and have gotten a few hoodies from the universities I’ve seen, as well as wearing the ones from my parents schools, etc… so is that now thuggish, too? Seriously, it is just awful that people are trying to blame and even justify/rationalize Trayvon’s death on a piece of clothing that basically everyone wears. Its like they’re just finding any reason NOT to face the realities and facts on this case and every case similar to it. lsorry if that was really redundant to what you said lol
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@Linda,
I heard an interesting discussion on NPR about the case between a former prosecutor and a defense attorney. Unless significant additional evidence comes forth, it may be likely that Stand Your Ground would play no role at all.
The only difference between SYG and traditional claims of self-defense is that under SYG a person being attacked does not have a “duty to retreat”.
According to Zimmerman’s story, he wasn’t in a position to retreat. The attorneys seemed to think then that the case will hinge on whether or not a jury believes Zimmerman.
But what about the allegation that Zimmerman may have been the original aggressor? According to Florida law, a person retains the right to self defense even if they were the original aggressor, provided that the other party is using a disproportionate amount of force in return.
In other words, even if you approach a stranger, call them a name, and slap them across the face, you’re still entitled to use deadly force in defense if that party uses a disproportionate amount of force on you, and you legitimately fear that your life is in danger.
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The jury doesn’t have to believe Zimmerman for him to walk.
It has to totally disbelive him.
The standard is beyond a reasonable doubt there was no reasonable claim of self defense against either death or serious bodily inury.
Zimmerman’s head was being repeatedly pummeled against the cement sidewalk. He reasonably could have feared for coma or death.
End of the case.
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It may well be dismissed in pre trial motions however. There is an opportunity for that under Florida law.
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JT–
You disgust me.
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(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wk-6D3lf2lw)
Start at 0:51 mark. This man had his head hit a concrete wall once and he was out. I honestly don’t believe that Martin was bashing Zimmerman’s head harshly against the concrete ground since he would have been out fairly quickly. If the 911 screams were his screams(Zimmerman) then it brings into doubt how badly Martin was beating him. I don’t believe the harsh head beating story for a second, he was clear and focused when he spoke to the police and the scene, not dizzy or disorientated. i believe it is more likely that Zimmerman used excessive force therefor 2nd degree murder.
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“Randy,
The only difference between SYG and traditional claims of self-defense is that under SYG a person being attacked does not have a “duty to retreat”.
According to Zimmerman’s story, he wasn’t in a position to retreat. The attorneys seemed to think then that the case will hinge on whether or not a jury believes Zimmerman.”
Linda says,
Exactly, Randy. This case is a “he say/she say” with Zimmerman the only one standing who can “say” anything, so he has to convince the courts or jury to believe he had no choice but to pull the trigger.
I was listening to a radio program with former policemen and they were saying that if Zimmerman really indeed had a broken nose, it’s possible that it could have occured from the recoil of the gun, if he really was on the bottom when he pulled the trigger.
The close proximity between Zimmerman’s face and his hands in relation to Trayvon’s chest would have left blood evidence inside of the gun as well as “pull-back” blood splatter on Zimmermans face…if the police did not take his gun or test the blood on GZ’s face, then that theory would be hard to prove.
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dee dee it does not take that long to get over being shook up. you also don’t know how long it was betwee that occurence & the scene at the jail . you are purely supposing you know what happened which is dangerous for our democratic system to allow people like you to make conjecture with even less evidence than the state and assume that the rest of us are supposed to agree with your falacies. you are racist to say the man is guilty before a court of law has even had to to do so. I”m not saying zimmerman is innocent , but in our justice system the words INNOCENT UNTILL PROVEN GUILTY are very important. twanna brawley and teh courts of north carolina ruined inocent peoples reputations for life (and probably their chance of gettting the jobs they went to school for) because of her false accusations. this is not someting we can afford to repeat.
2nd degree murder is out of the question , self defense does not fall into that category. manslaugher at most. the hoody is not a black thing it’s just something that drug dealers (most of which happen to be black ) weart while plying their trade. it allows their faces to not be seen & play off the fact that even black people all look the same to eachother. case in point a black man who robbed banks in harlem nyc. he blended into the crowds and robbed over 100 differentn banks in the same neighborhoods.
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“Doug,
Zimmerman’s head was being repeatedly pummeled against the cement sidewalk. He reasonably could have feared for coma or death.”
How do you, I, the courts, a jury know this Doug?
Zimmerman is “saying” this verbally, there is no evidence to support this. Grass stains / abrasion to back of his head suggests a struggle but was this struggle truly life or death…..Zimmerman SAYS it was, but was it really?
Everything your saying is supposition.
the court still has to believe GZ that he felt he had no other choice but to pull the trigger, in order for this case not to go to a jury…
it’s not as cut and dry as you want to make it seem.
If the police made it a habit to let every suspect walk away based on “only” their words, then why bother to have a judicial system?
Every one would be innocent because “they said so”
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@randy so according to syg zimmerman was right when he defended himself because following someone who looks like a criminal is not a crime . the syg law should be the law of all of the land. a person should not have to be perceived as a coward and hence more of a target to other aggressors. plus slamming someone to the ground and slamming their head repeadatly is not porportionate to being followed when you look like you don’t belong.(dressed like a thug in a upscale gated area. for all zimmerman knew the kid was going to continue to beat him untill he was dead. only a criminal would have responded in this manner if they were up to no good. no honest citizen would do this, they would either run away or ask what the deal was. zimmerman had no way of knowing that if he did not respond with dealdy force that martin was unarmed, martin was already guilty of aggravated assault to begin with.
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@Miguel Miquel
I can’t take you seriously. I never stated if Zimmerman was guilty or not so do not place words into my mouth. Was it not Zimmerman and his team that stated that he was being beating? If so then you yourself have claimed that Zimmerman has spoken fallacies. I mentioned not believing the severity of the assault, not that an assault never occured. Also, look up racism, I don’t believe you understand the term since I have never mentioned race. Do not try to assume you know me because you do not.
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@ linda
it was not just zimmermans word but his word plus corroberating evidence of him being bloody and cuts on his head.(not large enough to be seen on a cheap grainy cctv) what your suggesting is the paramedics who out of the influence of zimmermans judge father and not privvy to that either. there is the used cotton swabs & their treating his wounds hours before the jail scene & very well cleaned up. nobody is going to risk their future over just someones word.
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@ dee dee
this is not a pissing contest. but have you read the paramedics report? did you read the arrest report? do you know what martin really looked like that night? or what martin did. these are very important as it affects the perception(&why things) of what really happened that night & most people are not knowledgeable that martin was dressed like a commont thug and almost legally an adult definatly not a child. if you nkoew anything you would know that innocent till proven guilty is appropriate. most likely manslaughter is the worst thing that is appropriate.
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“Miguel Miquel
I”m not saying zimmerman is innocent , but in our justice system the words INNOCENT UNTILL PROVEN GUILTY are very important.”
Linda says,
I am confused as to why people keep bringing up this term in regards to this case.
Zimmerman pulled the trigger and killed someone. He is guilty of killing someone….he admitted it.
The only thing in dispute was whether he killed in “self-defense” or not? That’s what is going to be decided….
I looked up this Tawana Brawley case and if I am correct, this was a rape case…she was claiming she was raped and the men denied it….so if the men denied it, how is this similar to Zimmerman/Trayvon….
Zimmerman admitted that he killed Trayvon…there is nothing to dispute about him pulling the trigger and killing the boy.
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@Miguel Miquel
Look at all my earlier posts in this thread for your answer of if I know about the case. Move on from whatever hate is in your heart becase it is clouding your perception of other users and make you come off as a troll.”this is not a pissing contest”.I’m not sure what this means but I don’t care to know the answer. Relax and just let the discussion flow.
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http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-case-doctor-sees-evidence-george-zimmerman/story?id=16055412#.T4ouEtWQNWw
[A new enhanced version of the surveillance video of George Zimmerman in custody, may support neighborhood-watch shooter’s story in the Trayvon Martin shooting.
But Dr. Vidor Friedman, president of the Florida College of Emergency Physicians, remains unconvinced.
“If somebody had been beating his head against concrete I’d think we’d see more obvious scrapes,” Friedman said. He also said he would expect to see bandages on Zimmerman’s head.
More significantly for Friedman was the condition of Zimmerman’s nose.
“All of the ridges in his nose are clearly defined. You would expect significant swelling in the hour or two after a break. There appears to be none. It doesn’t look like his nose was broken or badly broken,” Friedman said. ]
Interesting medical perspective, i would like to hear from others as well however.
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“Miguel Miquel
@ linda
it was not just zimmermans word but his word plus corroberating evidence of him being bloody and cuts on his head.(not large enough to be seen on a cheap grainy cctv) what your suggesting is the paramedics who out of the influence of zimmermans judge father and not privvy to that either. there is the used cotton swabs & their treating his wounds hours before the jail scene & very well cleaned up. nobody is going to risk their future over just someones word.”
Linda says,
Miguel, please dont’ speak for me or interpret for me, my English and words are very clear.
I didn’t say anything about the paramedics, video, or GZ’s father…who cares
Zimmerman had what we call in the medical world, “abrasions” in laymans terms it’s called a “cut”. When the paramedics treat someone, they document the event, so that the rest of us medical personnel can follow the history of the event…so please don’t try to educate me.
The abrasion represents a struggle, nothing more…the paramedics could care less what he said as far as him shooting Trayvon, their job (paramedics) is to treat the patient at the scene, document, and move on.
and yes, the prosecutor certainly did put his job on the line by letting Zimmerman go based on his word. The same way if I accidently “kill” someone at my job, my license is on the line and I have to prove that I followed ALL protocals and procedures as per standards set by the State of Florida.
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@Linda
The point of that case is to show that false accusations can occur and that lives can be ruined. However, there are no false accusations in the Martin case so Miguel Miquel is just letting his/her stance be known in the Martin case. The problem is that every testimony is not fact and does have to be scrutinized in the court. No one is trying to ruin Zimmerman’s life, he did that all on his own by not being a responsible neighboorhood watch captain and letting the police do there jobs..
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it was not just his word or the prosecutors opinion it was also the states attourney. this was based on the fact the police were there when the paramedics treated him so they knew it was self defense. you sound like a racist assuming zimmerman is guilty based on superflouis knowledge of the case which tainted by what the media has manipulated you into believing.
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@ Doug
Again, let me say that Stand your Ground becomes null if you are the aggressor. All points say that your Zimmerman was the agressor. He was told to stand down. He didn’t listen. I don’t give a damn if it was by the dispatcher or a cop. He had no right to approach the teenager.
When he goes down, and he will, you’ll have no choice but to eat crow. I know what’s bothering you, old friend. You’re putting yourself in Zimmerman’s shoes and would’ve loved to pull the bloody trigger yourself. Ahhhhhh, the smell of Negro blood on your hands would be orgasmic, no?
That’s why you’ve been missing on so many threads, like the one on white crime. You’re saving all your Grand Dragon-ish prowess for your honorary white ally, Mr Zimmerman.
Dougie, tell us…why fight it?
You know this is a losing battle, right? Your time is up. You’ve lost. The humans have won. Whether you like it or not, the good ole days where you ruled supreme are slowly coming to smashing end. It won’t be pretty, though. Karma is a bi+ch.
Oh and the fact that you’ve been missing for weeks to pop up now and argue for the justification of killing a black boy…well now…you’ve qualified for ” American Racist of the Year.”
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Linda–
There was an eye not just ear witness that came forward immediately to the police and has stated his case to the press at least once named John who said so.
There’s another eyewitness 13yo boy who says he saw red garmented guy (Zimmerman on the bottom being beaten up.)
The desire of the blacks in this country to unjustly convict this Latino Zimmerman is huge. And appauling. Calling him white. I’m quite disgusted at most of you.
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“deedee7789
All of the ridges in his nose are clearly defined. You would expect significant swelling in the hour or two after a break. There appears to be none. It doesn’t look like his nose was broken or badly broken,” Friedman said. ]
Interesting medical perspective, i would like to hear from others as well however.
Linda says,
Deedee, the only hard part about the broken nose is that there is no longer a way to prove or disapprove it, unless upon his release, Zimmerman went to the hospital for treatment.
If he did, they would have taken x-rays of his face and possible a CT scan of his head to check for fractures or hemorrages.
With fractures, bruising doesn’t have to happen right away..it could show up anywhere between 24-48 hours.
If he went into hiding almost immediately, then it’s possible that only his family saw him, so there are no unbiased witnesses to verify the broken nose.
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it indeed is a false accusation that this is murder it is self defense & manslaughter @ most. however if he is innocent then it is a false accusations. following someone is not illegal I do it all the time when undesirables of any type roam through where I live. this is not a crime I approach them in a friendly manner and ask them where they are from and other leading friendly questions. only a criminal will respond in a non friendly manner or attack in retalliation for knowing what they are there for. defending yourself after having stopped watching martin and returning to his truck is not stopping the police either. ever hear of citizens arrest?? you don’t have to wait for the police nor do you have to stop following someone who looks suspicious if you know the police are not going to do anything. open the wax out of your ears you racist. the police do not pay zimmermans salary so they have no right to tell him to stop an acitivity that is not illega. if following someone I suspect is not up to any good in my own neighborhood then I will continue to be a criminal in a neighborhood that does not have breakins or corner drug dealers & watch my property values rise and continue to keep the wrong element from even renting a house anywhere near me.
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“Doug,
The desire of the blacks in this country to unjustly convict this Latino Zimmerman is huge. And appauling. Calling him white. I’m quite disgusted at most of you.”
Who gives a sh’t how you feel, Doug.
why don’t you talk about the eyewitness who say Zimmerman was on top of Trayvon while he was alive…
Why is it so easy for you to believe Zimmermans words..do you know him personally?
You should be disgusted with yourself for defending this man who admitted to killing another human being and you don’t even know why…oh I forgot, he said it was self defense so it “must be true”….get over yourself Doug.
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@Miguel Miquel
Manslaughter is not justifiable. Also, please don’t follow people you don’t know, you are putting yourself at risk. Just report them to the police. You have people that care about you, be careful.
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@Miguel Miquel
Yes, obsessively following a person is legally considered stalking and is extremely illegal. If any of those people you follow called the cops or reported you, you could get a restraining order or worse. A citizens arrest laws only applies to when you are observing, have observed, or if you are victim of a crime in progress. Any other time it is considered a civil rights violation or assault.
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Miguel,
it was not just his word or the prosecutors opinion it was also the states attourney. this was based on the fact the police were there when the paramedics treated him so they knew it was self defense. you sound like a racist assuming zimmerman is guilty based on superflouis knowledge of the case which tainted by what the media has manipulated you into believing.”
Please explain how anyone knew it was self defense…
was it captured on video, was someone else besides Trayvon/GZ standing there when GZ pulled the trigger.
Because the police detained GZ and took him to the station.
So are you saying the prosecutor was there and witness GZ pulling the trigger in “self defense”, because if he wasn’t there personally (prosecutor), that meant he TOOK ZIMMERMANS words at bold face value.
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“this was based on the fact the police were there when the paramedics treated him so they knew it was self defense.”
One of the cops at the scene had in the initial report the incident as manslaughter (not justifiable ergo no self defense). So your statement above is not true. The police at the scene had no idea if it was self-defense or not which is why it was initially written off as manslaughter. We don’t know if it was in self-defense which is why is has to go to trial so that forensics can prove it or not. No one here is saying Zimmerman is guilty but that something happened that does not clearly indicate self-defense based on the evidence that has been leaked to the public (and has mostly been removed so as not screw up the case). So can we stop with the “racist” and “digust” comments okay?
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@truth be told following someone is not aggressing an altercation it’s making sure your neighborhood is safe. I do it all the time. #2 the police are not in control of what private citizens do within the law. following a suspicious person is not illegal.
In 2007, the Second District Court of Appeals found that the “Stand Your Ground” law specifically did not apply to a situation where the victim is retreating. In contrast, this past August, the First District Court of Appeal held that the “Stand Your Ground” law permits an individual to use deadly force, even when an aggressor is retreating.
Florida courts are also split on how to decide if a person is immune from prosecution under the “Stand Your Ground” law. Some judges require a pretrial hearing to determine the facts of the case and making a finding of whether the defendant acted in self-defense. Others state it is similar to a motion for summary judgment and can only be used if there is no material question of fact.
so you can see this states nothing about who aggresses who . if I slap the piss out of you and then you attack me I’m still defending myself and have the right to not look like a pussy and attract more aggressors to me as being seen as an easy target.
remember there was many home break ins in the area. do you know what a home invasion is? I hope you never find out. so getting the shit beat out of you is self defense, though following a supsicious charachter does not give them the right to put their hands on yout. this is something only a guilty person would do. an honest person would ask why he was being followed or run away. banging someones head on concrete can kill them. you can’t say you would not have done the same. also according to eye witnesses zimmerman had already broken the chase off as the kid was too fast. remember the statement about coons always getttin away?? get your facts & lies straight. you people who assume zimmerman is guilty are racist as hell as he is even more of a minority thatn trayvon he jewish and latino.
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this is not a crime I approach them in a friendly manner and ask them where they are from and other leading friendly questions””
@ Miguel Miquel
You are white (and not Hispanic like your name would suggest). I am white. So you would never approach me.
However if you did, i would tell you exactly where to go. You have no more right to be in a place than another and your “harmless” questioning of what you refer to as “undesirables” is an act of harassment.
George Zimmerman is the perfect example of how the so-called gatekeeper mentality is more of a threat to individual safety and civil society than the so-called undesirable (who in this case was Trayvon Martin).
This is a memo to all of you self-appointed neighbourhood watch dogs:
GET A LIFE.
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Doug said: “The desire of the blacks in this country to unjustly convict this Latino Zimmerman is huge. And appauling. Calling him white. I’m quite disgusted at most of you.”
Dougie,
Your false outrage is laughable. I noticed you never responded to my theory as to why you’re so invested in this case. You’re putting yourself in Zimmerman’s shoes. You believe you’re quite intelligent,
don’t you?
You’re more transparent than Saran wrap.
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You’re putting yourself in Zimmerman’s shoes and would’ve loved to pull the bloody trigger yourself. Ahhhhhh, the smell of Negro blood on your hands would be orgasmic, no?
That is only half of it Truth. Yes, Doug 666, aka Beelzebub and his legion of demons, I am not interested in their phony stats or lunatic ‘race realist theories, which is, in reality, their closeted lust for black men. You and your ilk(male ‘race realists’), seem to slobber over talking about black mens’ supposed sexuality a little too much for my taste and thier excess testosterone, their propensity for violence and low impulse controls among other stupidness. Remember Doug, you can’t go home again. All you flailing about along with the other ‘race realist’ here will not make it so.
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@ Truthbetold, Herneith,
LOL at Doug666!
Doug1111 finds me disgusting for telling him that the judicial system is ethically bankrupt when it comes to POC and people would not be surprised if there was more miscarriage of justice with Trayvon’s case. I would really like to know what part of that statement is disgusting by any sane assessment of this situation. Especially considering where we are at this point with this trial. Where it took media scrutiny to see that this would have been swept under the rug if people didn’t stand up and speak out against this situation.
For anyone who thinks that we are going over the line in talking with these StormFront hooligans; well, unfortunately, you can’t talk to a madman with rationality: human kindness doesn’t resonate with the non-kind, the non-human.
These posters from StormFront need to see what they are posting is deplorable. The only way they will is by holding the line with them and being just as verbally vicious as they are emotionally vicious.
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^^^ This post belongs to JT – sorry all; my login is weird.
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@jt spanish people are indeed really cocosoid *& also a very large component of moorish influence as my homeland of spain was taken oer and enslaved for 700 years* so no I’m not white*what you think is latino is actually indiod of either aztec or myan influence real spaniards are lighter in complexion but still not really white. I’ve been told my entire life I”m not white and treated as inferior because I prefer to not speak your trashy language of english *even thouh I have 7 phd’s and a college level english vocabulary by age 8. I speak many tounges not one like a racist like you.
yes I do have the right to come up to you in my neighborhood and talk to you in a friendly manner that disarms you & brings you potentially into my fold where I live & attempt at being friends. *the purpose of this is two fold not just to find out what you are doing there. however if you are just standing on a corner for hours with a hoody on and there is no bus stop . hell fucking yea I”m going to find out what the fuck you are doing there . if you were to respond unfavorably I”m not going to say a motherfucking word , however day’s later when you are there again just going to walk by & say hello. then go straight around the corner & get on my cell phone & talk to the police officer I went to school with and the district attourney I went to school with & the judge who used to live next door and your sorry ass will be going to jail for being a drug dealer or at least made to know that you don’t belong there. it’s my right to protect my neighborhood from undesireables and feel safe where I live. nobody has the right to come in and make property values go down by their mere presence, no matter what race or creed they are.
you might say my tactics are harrasment , so what maybe they are but there is no crime where I live & I don’t lock my front door *& can go to any of my neighbors houses when they are not home and borrow eggs, sugar or tools without asking, Ieave my car keys in my car where they wont’ get lost. don’t have to watch my back when I go downtown or to the corner bar. people like you really bore me. to thinkn that people don’t have right were they live and you can just walk around being a criminal just anywhere is not correct.
your bringing up race where it’s not appropriate is also not very comforting either. my family comes from spain through cuba where many of my famiy members are black hatueys. I have lost alot of my skin tone from being in northern climates outside of florida where most of my cuban family lives. I dated a black woman for 6 years and was almost married I still miss her. racism is not in my blood or culture .
if you were to be in my neighborhood your illogical response of telling me to fuck off would be a sign that you are up to no good. being invited up for a lemonaide or glass of ice tea on a hot day is a sign of friendship not harrasment. I know everybody in my neighborhood and they know everybody else so if someone comes walking through #1 the only people who walk anywhere are probably criminals anyhow. #2 on the way to a bar or local eatery and then would know them anyhow. however this is not a reason to be unfriendly and respond like you said you would unless you were up to no good. a simple hello would suffice.
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@ JT
I think you hit a nerve with Miguel.
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@ JT
I think you hit a nerve with Miguel.
”
”
@ Truthbetold,
Well i am sad that we need to be even having this conversation at all in the first place. However when you have people who can justify an innocent’s murder through their sort of “Don’t tread on me!” rhetoric, then the questions have to be asked:
What is your real problem here, because your associations of criminality with Blacks is not only unfair it is untrue. Blacks are no more inherently criminal then I am or Miguel is. However the way these race realists have been arguing, it is as if Trayvon deserved to be killed because he was unaware of some rich White/Jewish/Hispanic code of conduct for issues of security in gated communities. And he fits into their cooked statistical manual profile for potential security breaches. Without his knowledge. All he sees is a belligerant light skinned man following him. What would you do in such a scenario but try and leave?
When society has gotten to such a place, we have a problem. An innocent Black youth can’t even walk home alone without having to worry about White/Jewish/Hispanic paranoia.
@ Miguel Miquel,
Well, my apologies for the mistake on your ethnicity. I really thought you devised that name as it seemed a bit prototypically spanish-speaking. I thought you were trying to show your support for Zimmerman with the rest of the race realist crowd who have largely been from a white background here at Abagonds.
I am not saying that you don’t have a right to be nice to whoever in your neighbourhood. In actual fact, that would be great if everyone was so nice. However I would ask you to reflect on who you think is guilty of being undesirable and whether they are truly as cartoonish as you described. Also, people are not as naive as you think and can see through phony niceties. Sincerity shines through so if you are going to do that, i hope you actually mean the niceness that you are saying that you are showing towards “undesireable” strangers.
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I can’t bear to read any of Miguel’s posts. The grammar and spelling are literally the WORST I have ever observed. The last time I wrote that badly is when I was 7.
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@silentreturn
Maybe english is a second language for Miguel or Miguel was writing with emotions which can cause serious typos.
@Miguel Miquel
Please read the comment policy if you are going to continue to post here. You don’t want to get banned by not knowing what is acceptable. Try to not call other commenters names (like racist), that can get you banned.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/comment-policy/
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*even thouh I have 7 phd’s and a college level english vocabulary by age 8.
@deedee
He is lying about his credentials. If he was telling the truth, he could spell ‘Mayan’ and ‘Caucasoid.’
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No excuses for Miguel’s PROFOUND intellect. If he is telling the truth, write in flawless English. If not come clean.
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@silentreturn
I did not take the “phd’s” comment seriously and I’m actually starting to wonder if Miguel is a kid..O.o
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/14/zimmerman-skittles-mugshot_n_1425449.html?ref=canada&ir=Canada
I think the title and the art itself are quite profound: “Fear itself” – Zimmerman’s mug shot as made with skittles.
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Miguel Miguel—
Right. Also there’s no indication from Zimmerman’s 911 call or otherwise that he was closely following Trayvon. He was trying to keep him within sight so that he could point out to cops where he was when they shortly arrived. According to Zimmerman it was Trayvon who came up to him and confronted him about following him. DeeDee, Trayvon’s gf, hasn’t actually contradicted that from what she actually heard as opposed to concluded.
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my specialty’s are in engineering. yes emotional typing does cause types yes I have studies in many university’s where the teachers at masters level and above cannot spell word’s correctly as it is the concepts that are important not small things like grammar or spelling. stand your ground is an awesome law as no person should ever be expected to turn & run instead of doing just that standing your ground. predators like trayvon and worse see running as a sign of weakness and tell others you are an easy target. this would be an indication that a home invasion would be good for that person as they would roll over and pretend to be asleep while being robbed or let themselves be tied up and killed. yes to the people who assume zimmerman is guilty you probably are racist as helll. I take insult at people who say zimmerman supporters are racist for knowing martin is a thug no matter what he had in his pockets at the time. when in rome do like the romans. when you live in a gated community you don’t make a target out of yourself by dressing like a hoodlum from the ghetto. I’ve had black people tell me the same exact thing about the young man. that if they saw him they would have done the same thing. this is coming from educated people with money who happen to be black.
yes black people do have a larger segment or porportion of criminality in their coummunity because I remember in high school black kids skipping class saying learning is what white people do and not a very black thing to do. this comes back to bite them in the ass when they can’t get regular jobs and must resort to crime.
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Linda—
Because there aren’t any eye witnesses who saw that. There are two eye witnesses, one named John who saw the fight for the longest and was the closest, and a thirteen year old boy, who saw the guy wearing a red sweater or jacket (Zimmerman) on the bottom.
There was one ear witness, Mary, who saw nothing until well after the shot was fired, but who did hear screaming or whining which she just concluded “must be” coming from “little kid” Trayvon in interviews she gave weeks after the shooting, since it was rather high pitched, and ended immediately after the shot. Well Zimmerman would have also stopped screaming after Trayvon was shot and no longer banging his head against the cement sidewalk. Also she’d never heard either’s voice before. She was surmising based upon the little kid pictures of Trayvon at 13 that Martin lawyer Crump was spinning the media, and also Zimmerman at 250 lbs also coming from Crump, rather than Trayvon as the 6’2” 160lb football player and Zimmerman at 5’8 and 170 lbs, which is what the truth is and what his court appearance pictures and video reflect.
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@doug yes doug and zimmerman probably said “because you are a fucking criminal looking motherfucker” which probably pissed the young thug off and he though that gave him the right to put his hands on another person for being insulted. I have people saying insulting things to me everyother day as a public figure I just consider the source and let them go about their trashy worthless lives. most martin supporters seem to forget he is not the child in the 4 year old photo& he was acting supsicious after been found with burglary tools more than once in a neighborhood that had had a rash of break ins. that’s why anytime someone who does nto belong where i live they are scrutinized period , end of story. kindof strange the word get’s out that if you don’t belong there stay on the main road when walking through and don’t stop period. we have no drug dealers on the streets here and the police stay away because there is no crime for them to police here.
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“Stand Your Ground” gives people a license for preemptive strike which is fundamentally wrong when considering that the experience of “threat” is entirely ambiguous.
Stand Your Ground is a legal tool of the NRA and its xenophobic and bigotted members. Self-defense is not plausible when the aggressor is armed with skittles and ice tea. Or when they are children at a camp in Norway:
http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/16/world/europe/norway-breivik-trial/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
Right-wingers are paranoid, gun-toting freaks the world over. Its not just in the USA.
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@ abagond
I wonder if all the Zimmerman supporters would support him if he had shot a white, blonde teenage girl.
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@ Truth:
Of course not. They would suddenly see him for the monster that he is.
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abagond
Just curious: do you completely discount the possibility that Zimmerman was being beaten at the time of the shooting and felt that his life was in danger?
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@ Randy
Here’s the cold truth, Randy.
The fact that Zimmerman described Martin as “suspicious” and having something in his waistband already tells us that fear was already apart of his mind frame. If you are afraid of someone, why pursue them? Why confront them? Why approach them?
If I saw a “suspicious” man walking about on my farm, I wouldn’t approach them, I’d stay inside my house, lock the doors and wait for the cops to show up.
The only person who felt as though their life may be in danger was Martin. Isn’t that what we teach our kids? Stranger Danger?
Randy, I’m in medicine and let me tell you a broken nose causes
bruising and a black eye for weeks. Zimmerman showed NO signs of trauma. The video of him at the station showed him walking about fine with NO signs of impaired gait. Having your head banged against stone, will cause a concussion; Dizziness, slurred speech, double vision. He looked normal because he was normal. His life wasn’t in danger. He was carrying a gun. A gun is no match for sucrose.
You’re disgusting in your painfully obvious attempt to justify a black child’s murder.
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truthbetold–
There’s no evidence from 911 tapes or otherwise that Zimmerman did any of those things. Instead he was trying to keep Trayvon within eyesight so that he could tell the police where he was when they arrived.
Zimmerman says it was Trayvon who approached him at close quarters. Trayvon’s own girlfriend Deedee says that Trayvon was the one to verbally confront and challenge Zimmerman by demanding first “why are you following me”. Personally that sounds awfully white and whitewashed by the Martin’s lawyer Crump to me. I tend to believe Zimmerman’s version which is that Trayvon demanded “You have a problem?”
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Douglas, you believe Zimmerman’s version because YOU are imagining yourself in his shoes doing the exact same thing.
And loving every minute of it.
You lost your objectivity here a long time ago.
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Doug,
You’re arguments for the murder of a kid is shameful.
I wonder how you sleep at night.
But then again, you need a soul to sleep.
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@ truthbetold,
There’s a reason why Doug is often referred to as Doug666. He has worked hard to earn that name.
@ Doug,
What this case comes down to is: George Zimmerman had no right to be aggressively stalking Trayvon. Trayvon was scared, unarmed being followed. If you were in his position you would have been too. However to imagine such a scenario would involve you taking on the perspective of someone who represents a people you have dedicated your life to railing against.
Were you ever made to feel really small and insignificant at some point in your life?
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No I would never be a neighborhood watch guy. I have no police type aspirations at all.
I believe Zimmerman’s version more or less because the forensic evidence supports it. As well he submitted to police questioning for 7 hours without asking for a lawyer and told a consistent story according to them. He also accompanied police back to the scene the next day and continued to tell a consistent story.
I don’t see him having any motivation to go up to Trayvon at close quarters and provoke him at all. He had called police to come to question Trayvon we know from his 911 call and they were on their way. What he wanted to do was keep Trayvon in his sights. He found his suspicious primarily because he was aparently wandering around in the strong rain looking at houses, maybe Zimmerman thought to case them for burglary. Zimmerman also didn’t recognize him as he would as watch captain for most or all the other residents. I’m sure it didn’t help that he was dressed in a hoodie and was a late black teen — who commit a disproportionate amount of crime.
In contrast I do see Trayvon having motivation to confront and then punch and beat on Zimmerman. Trayvon felt “dissed” for being racially profiled, suspected of having criminal intent, and followed. You black males often get very mad about feeling dissed particularly by non blacks.
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JT—
He wasn’t “aggressively” stalking him, he was keeping him in sight, and following him to that extent. There’s no evidence that Trayvon was scared – but there is that Deedee at least by her own hardly unbiased and uncoached statement (by Martin civil lawsuit lawyer Crump) was scared for him. Further Zimmerman did have a right to follow Trayvon as someone he suspected of casing the neighborhood for burglary, which it had had a lot of in the past year.
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@ Doug
Zimmerman wasn’t a constable. He’s a private citizen. Remember that
I’m done with you.
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He wasn’t “aggressively” stalking him, he was keeping him in sight, and following him to that extent. There’s no evidence that Trayvon was scared – but there is that Deedee at least by her own hardly unbiased and uncoached statement (by Martin civil lawsuit lawyer Crump) was scared for him. Further Zimmerman did have a right to follow Trayvon as someone he suspected of casing the neighborhood for burglary, which it had had a lot of in the past year.
”
”
@ Doug,
Immediate following the shooting of Trayvon Martin, the lead homicide investigator found no reason to believe it was self-defense on the part of Zimmerman. THe state attorney obstructed justice at this point and refused to admit an arrest. Why – we don’t know. But it is of no little consequence that Zimmerman carries the last name of Magistrate Robert Zimmerman. His dad is a big shot in Virginia and Florida. Two southern states. …. after six hours of investigation Zimmerman was let free without charge and without drug or alcohol testing.
You have Sanford police chief stepping down after a no-confidence vote precipitated by his inaction in the investigation by his colleagues.
You have the governor of florida taking Wolfinger off the case and putting Carey on because of the manner in which the case has been conducted.
At the pre-trial you have honorable judge Mark Herr ruling for probable cause to continue.
These are the facts of the case so far.
If you had someone following you and you had no protection from them, knowing how terrified you are of strangers I know you would confront them. And if they didn’t back down because they were belligerent you would probably pull your gun out at them.
So please save your vomit-inducing assertion that Trayvon should not have been afraid when Zimmerman started stalking him.
This case stinks to high heaven of racial profiling and subsequent assassination. Lets hope justice is realized for Trayvon Martin.
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@ Truthbetold,
Doug is waiting for people to tire him so he can continue to post his list of reasons why Trayvon deserved to die, unchecked.
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JT,
Assuming the worst case scenario, that Zimmerman caused Martin to be “scared”, if Martin ended up on top of Zimmerman and was striking his head against the pavement, how does that remove Zimmerman’s right to self defense under Florida law?
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@ JT
Don’t answer this fool.
The worse case scenario isn’t Zimmerman causing Martin to be scared. The worse case scenario is that Zimmerman killed a kid.
Enough said.
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@Randy
You are referring to which law in Florida? I would like to answer your question about the self defense claim but I need to know which law.
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@ Truthbetold,
Sorry it might be a guy thing or it might be an ego thing or it might be about doing the right thing. But …
I have to answer Randy.
<Quote
"if Martin ended up on top of Zimmerman and was striking his head against the pavement, how does that remove Zimmerman’s right to self defense under Florida law?
@ Randy,
Well, Zimmerman instigated a scenario where he got out of his car, while packing heat (a pistol) while following someone.
He was acting out what he thought should/would be done in a movie. Or possibly what he thought he would be able to do once he graduated from his community college program.
Nonetheless he made a number of big mistakes legal, moral, pragmatic and over the course of his exchange with Trayvon. He practiced faulty logic;made a preventable error that caused a child their life or was possibly intoxicated. We will never know because the police and attorney obstructed typical procedure in their conduct of this case by not testing him.
Nonetheless here we are with a dead teen. And a bunch of lunatic fringe white supremacists/neo-nazis/house bound paranoid middle aged elderly white people celebrating Zimmerman’s actions and probably donating thousands of dollars to his account. Not that he needs it because his daddy has connections.
You should have trouble breathing when you think of his murder. Instead you have trouble accepting what happened.
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If Zimmerman had been lying prone on the ground (with Martin directly atop of him- when he fired his gun, he would have been covered in blood. I didn’t receive schooling from the highest educational institutions in the land, but I *do* know that blood is as subject to gravity as anything else. Given the knowledge that Martin’s death was (technically) instantaneous, his dead body would have either fallen upon or been cast aside by Zimmerman (with either set of circumstances having led to him being coated or at least sprayed with blood.) Yet, when he was taken to the precinct house, he was as clean as a whistle. I served as a combat medic in Afghanistan and I can tell you that the timeframe necessary to decontaminate yourself when you’ve been the direct target of a ruptured artery or vein is sizeable. Unless Zimmerman had been given time to shower and change clothes prior to being detained (a set of actions that in and of itself would have been a *major* breach of police procedure), he would have been covered in blood when he arrived and was filmed in the garage of the station. Instead, not only did he get filmed as clean as a whistle, his shirt wasn’t even covered in grass stains (stains that would have been ground into the fabric if Zimmerman had been pinned to the earth for any significant amount of time.)
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@ Mamu,
Perfectly stated. Don’t accept them to budge though. They are delusional.
In other disturbing news: a white conservative threatens a race war over Trayvon’s murder:
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/white-panic-attack-conservative-warns-cnns-don-lemon-of-impending-race-war-over-trayvon/
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^^^^^^ *expect*
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Mamu–
Zimmerman’s back was wet and covered with bits of grass, strong forensic evidence that he was lying on his back partly in the grass with his head over the sidewalk, which is why it was bloodied when Trayvon kept pounding it onto the cement. Two eyewittness saw the guy with a red sweater or jacket on (Trayvon) as the one on the bottom on the ground getting pounded and NO eye witnessess said the guy in red was on top.
We know that eyewitness John saw Trayvon face down not on top of Zimmerman but over to the side. If in their struggle Trayvon was tilted somewhat to the side when the shot was fired, then no blood would necessarily get on Zimmerman as opposed to the ground from the gunshot wound.
Most of you are just ignoring large parts of the evidence out there. I’m ignoring none of it.
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deedee7790:
Florida law appears to allow an aggressor to retain the right to use force if they feel their life is in danger.
In other words, what matters most is how the final minute or so of the confrontation played out. Whether or not Zimmerman profiled Martin, frightened him, called him names, or even initiated hostilities appears to be irrelevant according to the law.
Check out the following:
776.041 Use of force by aggressor.–The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
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JT:
If you cannot cite a statute which defines such a scenario as having significance in this particular situation, then your claim has no basis and you should probably stop offering it.
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then your claim has no basis and you should probably stop offering it.
@ Randy
Zimmerman precipitated a situation wherein he knew there was a considerable likelihood that he would feel the need to use his gun. He acted carelessly, and closely trailed Trayvon. He orchestrated a scenario where a teen would be scared and respond in self defense and he would always have the upper hand while carrying a loaded gun. He refused to listen to the 911 operator when they told him that they didn’t need him to get out of the vehicle and further trail Trayvon. He actively instigated and executed the shooting of Trayvon Martin.
Thus, there is probable cause to have properly conducted a thorough investigation and trial for 2nd degree murder. Something that wasn’t done and has resulted in multiple people loosing their positions including the chief of police and lead prosecutor.
If Zimmerman escapes justice, he will not escape the fundamentally immoral quality of his actions. Whether the law runs outside the circles of morality when it comes to the life of a Black man will be the bottom line of this trial. Something all of the so-called “cold hard objectivists” will balk at, but will remain the truth. You are in the moral minority. Feel it.
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…he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger..
I’m not sure if Zimmerman did everything in his power to get Martin off of him.
It really comes down to if Zimmerman was at risk of dying. I am not convinced that he was.
790.25 Lawful ownership, possession, and use of firearms and other weapons
(5) POSSESSION IN PRIVATE CONVEYANCE.—Notwithstanding subsection (2), it is lawful and is not a violation of s. 790.01 for a person 18 years of age or older to possess a concealed firearm or other weapon for self-defense or other lawful purpose within the interior of a private conveyance, without a license, if the firearm or other weapon is securely encased or is otherwise not readily accessible for immediate use.
Zimmerman was fine with having his gun while in the car.
776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.
(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
“Dwelling”, “Residence”, “Vehicle” are the places that Zimmerman “has the right to be”, However, he was between two buildings, not near his car or at his own home so this law does not apply to him.
776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.
(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
Zimmerman being arrested implies that he was not using force lawfully as in self-defense. So unless his team can pull out some amazing evidence that goes beyond eye-witness accounts then things may not play in his favor.
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http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=25c_1333056517&comments=1
The male witnesses info according to the initial report.
W/M 6 ft 170 pounds born 1982 (is or will be 30)
O/M (O means…?) 5 ft 7 200 pounds born 1969 (is or will be 43)
W/M 6 ft 2 195 pounds born 1981 (is or will be 31)
If one of these men were “John” they could have easily gotten Martin of Zimmerman in order to assist Zimmerman. So I have some doubt with “John” ‘s eye witness account.
Martin was born February 5, 1995 so he just had his 17th birthday several weeks before his death. He was not closer to being an “adult” since he wasn’t closer to his 18th birthday.
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JT,
So you’re conceding the legal argument in favor of a moral one?
deedee7789:
I’d agree that this is the crux of the case.
Zimmerman appears to have a valid concealed carry permit, so those location restrictions you’ve listed would not seem to apply.
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“If you cannot cite a statute which defines such a scenario as having significance in this particular situation, then your claim has no basis and you should probably stop offering it.”
***************
Actually Randolph, JT (and any juror) doesn’t need to cite a statute or law as having special significance, precedent or whatever. In case you forgot, as it seems you have, both juries and judges in America have the right to consider/judge the validity and fairness of ALL laws. Even the one Zim and his defense is standing behind.
Again, jurors have the power and duty to reject bad laws. In this case they may very well call into question the law that supposedly gives Zim the right to defend himself – after – Zim himself needlessly instigated a questionable encounter that turned violent leaving yet another unarmed black person dead.
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The crux of the case comes down to HOW the jurors and judge decide to interpret the law and give voice to their conscience. It will boil down to who will be serving on that jury.
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“Doug,
Because there aren’t any eye witnesses who saw that. There are two eye witnesses, one named John who saw the fight for the longest and was the closest, and a thirteen year old boy, who saw the guy wearing a red sweater or jacket (Zimmerman) on the bottom.”
Linda says,
Doug, this is a “he say/she say” case with Zimmerman doing all the saying.
There are witness on both sides, how reliable are these witness is for the courts to decide.
Just because you keep bringing in 2 witnesses to support your defense of Zimmerman, doesn’t mean that there are NOT witnesses who support TMartin…the only thing you are accomplishing is showing just how Biased you are.
it seems you don’t know the meaning of “balance” or you would present both sides of the story.
So since you lack that basic ability, then I’ll do the research for you and present both sides of the coin.
eye-witnesses:
who claimed they saw GZ on top of TM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/30/trayvon-martin-witness-zimmerman-uninjured
who claimed they saw TM on top of GZ
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/witness_supports_self_defense_story_hJ7s3EBd9LtYlZaE41WzFP
13-year old who claimed he saw the event but recanted stating he felt pressured by the police.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/03/29/trayvon-martin-witness-casts-doubt-on-shooters-self-defense-claims/
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2012/03/30/Witness-mom-Police-exerted-pressure/UPI-86531333126227/
Mary Cutcher (ear witness to the shot fired/ eye witness who saw Zimmerman after he got off of TMartin)
http://www.examiner.com/progressive-in-philadelphia/eyewitness-trayvon-martin-shooting-not-self-defense-as-wnd-claims
other witnesses besides these 4 were spoken to, as shown in partial police report, and I am sure we will hear about these witnesses if this case goes to trial.
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People with a concealed weapon permit are not exempt from the “location restrictions” of 776.013 – Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm. 776.013 is actually referenced by 776.032 – Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force. So 776.013 can be used to support justifiable homicide which is why Zimmerman’s team were trying to push him being by his car, although evidence suggest otherwise. The laws I have mentioned are for people with gun permits.
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@ Randy,
I am not conceding a legal loss. The trial hasn’t even started. I have argued before that I think Zimmerman would have benefitted from being found intoxicated because if i were his prosecutor i would have delivered murder one. Zimmerman acted with intention to kill like a predator willing to unload on their prey from the moment he closed the door of his vehicle.
I am not the prosecutor, judge nor on the jury. And the Martin file is still closed to the media. Nor do i know how the jury will behave in the middle of this heated murder case.
But what I do know is that regardless of what is found on this case – your side, will still be supporting an arguably unrepentant killer. He can wash the blood off his hands later but not the stain on his soul.
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Interestingly enough 776.041-Use of force by aggressor is not one of the justifiable means of force that would make someone immune from criminal prosecution.
776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force
(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
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@ Matari,
Thanks. Its funny how strongly they will cite the 1st amendment when they are trolling but now they try and quiet me from expressing my opinion.
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@ JT
Arguing for the defense of a killer releases you from having a soul.
These people here are bloodlusting racists. Doug has YET to answer if he’s imagining himself in Zimmermans shoes.
I think we all know the answer.
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@ Truthbetold,
Yeah, i think thats why he doesnt want to answer. He is beholden to something other than logic that’s for sure!
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@ Everyone,
Read Uncle Rufus’ comment about Abagond on Abagond’s newest thread. Isn’t this the epitome of race realism?
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http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331_1_voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty
Evidence that Zimmerman was probably not screaming for help.
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deedee–
This makes absolutely no sense. Why should John have to potentially risk his life (he didn’t know Trayvon wasn’t armed) or anyway getting beaten up to help someone not his friend, to be telling the truth about what he saw. He did say he’d call 911 right away to Zimmerman and did so. He was on a 911 call when the actual shot occurred, but then got off it and observed Trayvon face down in the grass, off to one side of Zimmerman, apparently dead.
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How did Zimmerman lose weight requesting all that junk food >< .
Interesting tattoos mentioned. Was he into the arts? The theatrical mask can also mean many different deep moods that can be experienced..Very fascinating.
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anti-white prejudicebetold–
Rubbish I said hours ago no to that. I said I’d never want to be a neighborhood watch guy.
However if armed and attacked by a black guy (or any guy) who was overwheming me and bashing my head against a cement sidewalk repeatedly would I shoot him? Yes if I didn’t think I could get away and he didn’t seem about to stop. Since I’m 6’3 strong and fit that doesn’t seem likely to me if it was only one guy. But if two or three that could happen.
I most definitely support stand your ground laws.
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silentreturnn–
Just how expert they are and how well verified their new software is not remotely well established.
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silentreturn–
Treyvon’s father when he first heard the 911 tapes played for him by police a day or two after the shooting told them that the screams were not the voice of his son. It was only weeks later and after they’d engaged the civil lawsuit lawyer Crump that he changed his story to the media.
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@doug
The point of the witness specs is to show weight and height. Also, if Zimmerman was getting his head banged on the ground then Martin would have been open to any other people in the vicinity. As so many mentioned Zimmerman “could” have died so why leave someone who is “near” a concussion when you can possibly take on the “aggressor”? Maybe the neighboorhood is filled with cowards? Its disappointing that you don’t believe that people like to help others.
Because people help those that are suffering or hurt. There were a group of people who lifted a flaming car off a motorcyclist who got into a accident. They were not trained medical personal but risked there own well being to save a stranger. There was also a man that ran over and stopped a man getting beaten that he did not know. Humanity is a beautiful thing.
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(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0SDc2YQWFw) <- Saving motorist video
http://www.clutchmagonline.com/2011/03/black-reporter-saves-white-supremacist-what-would-you-do/ <- Includes video of reporter helping a man getting punched in the face.
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Linda—
The witnesses supporting Team Trayvon were all ear witness only. The only eyewitnesses to the fight support the narrative I’ve so far concluded the totality of the evidence supports. Further I think it far more likely than not that Zimmerman did believe either his life or serious bodily injury were at stake if he didn’t shoot Trayvon, with his nose broken, his head being beaten against the pavement and Trayvon not having stopped doing either. Further the jury has to believe that it’s beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman didn’t believe that.
As Dershowitz has said on MSNBC, these charges were brought for purely political and riot avoidance reasons. They shouldn’t have been on present evidence, none of which the special prosecutor added to in her affidavit.
They made unfounded assumptions about their couldn’t have been a fight because they didn’t hear punching sounds etc. (Mary) and that the rather high pitched voice screaming for help “must have” been coming from “little kid” Trayvon.
The ones who are showing just how biased they are are the blacks and leftists on the Zimmerman must be guilty side of this argument. They’re (you’re) the ones not reasonably weighing all of the evidence and its relative credibility.
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Can you please give me a link on that fact Doug?
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The one about Trayvon’s father.
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Doug,
stop talking hogwash.
” Doug says,
Further I think it far more likely than not that Zimmerman did believe either his life or serious bodily injury were at stake if he didn’t shoot Trayvon, with his nose broken, his head being beaten against the pavement and Trayvon not having stopped doing either. Further the jury has to believe that it’s beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman didn’t believe that.”
I posted links showing support for Trayvon and support for Zimmerman but as usual, you skipped over that so you post your opinions, which are not facts in this case.
As I stated before, this is YOUR OPINION, which is all supposition, so stop acting like your opinion/suppostion are facts related to this case…
Did you read the links I posted or do I need to relist them for you.
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Doug,
I’ll repost this so that you can read these again. If you click on the links and read the story, they list what the witness say…we here at Abagond don’t need you to paraphrase or re-interpret, since we all read English.
Linda says,
Doug, it seems you don’t know the meaning of “balance” or you would present both sides of the story.
So since you lack that basic ability, then I’ll do the research for you and present both sides of the coin.
eye-witnesses:
who claimed they saw GZ on top of TM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/30/trayvon-martin-witness-zimmerman-uninjured
who claimed they saw TM on top of GZ
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/witness_supports_self_defense_story_hJ7s3EBd9LtYlZaE41WzFP
13-year old who claimed he saw the event but recanted stating he felt pressured by the police.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/03/29/trayvon-martin-witness-casts-doubt-on-shooters-self-defense-claims/
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2012/03/30/Witness-mom-Police-exerted-pressure/UPI-86531333126227/
Mary Cutcher (ear witness to the shot fired/ eye witness who saw Zimmerman after he got off of TMartin)
http://www.examiner.com/progressive-in-philadelphia/eyewitness-trayvon-martin-shooting-not-self-defense-as-wnd-claims
other witnesses besides these 4 were spoken to, as shown in partial police report, and I am sure we will hear about these witnesses if this case goes to trial.
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“Doug, As Dershowitz has said on MSNBC, these charges were brought for purely political and riot avoidance reasons.”
Linda says,
who cares, not a fact in the case,
Zimmerman still pulled the trigger that killed 17-year old Trayvon Martin
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silentreturn–
Sure.
Here’s the most recently at hand thing. It’s the second video in.
You can also find the same reports in the Orlando Sentinel newspaper.
I really don’t lie or misprepresent what I know to be true.
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LInda–
True.
And self defense against a hot headed tall and athletic teenager who was beating much shorter and way less athletic Zimmerman’s head repeatedly onto the cement sidewalk is a valid defense. The weight of the evidence strongly supports that.
Yeah I don’t think whites or hispanics should have to endure black high propensity to violence once strongly acted upon without striking back with overwhelming force. As in gun shots.
All hale stand your ground laws.
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“Doug,
And self defense against a hot headed tall and athletic teenager who was beating much shorter and way less athletic Zimmerman’s head repeatedly onto the cement sidewalk is a valid defense. The weight of the evidence strongly supports that.”
Linda says,
What evidence Doug?
how do you know Zimmerman wasn’t athletic..do you know him…no, you don’t …so now you are lying and making up stories.
What evidence Doug?
You mean the statement Zimmerman made, Zimmermans verbal excuse to why he killed Trayvon..Zimmermans version, what he SAID…where is the evidence to support his HAVING to pull to the trigger….oh, yeah, I forgot, Zimmerman said so, so it must be true.
What evidence Doug?
I’ve already posted 2 versions of eyewitness statements supporting both sides, so what other evidence is there Doug?
You mean his wet clothes because it was raining and they were struggling.
Doug, are you simple or you just like to create and embellish stories because you can’t help yourself…
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“Doug,
I really don’t lie or misprepresent what I know to be true.”
Linda says,
Yes you do, every time you post your opinions on this story
Either you just don’t know how to read the news articles or you are purposely avoiding new articles that show both sides of the story
because you certainly FAIL on this blog to show that you are unbiased.
so here, I’ll help you with one of the LIEs that you told previously posted
“Dougs statement on Mon 16 Apr 2012 at 00:11:24
Also she’d never heard either’s voice before. She was surmising based upon the little kid pictures of Trayvon at 13 that Martin lawyer Crump was spinning the media, and also Zimmerman at 250 lbs also coming from Crump, rather than Trayvon as the 6’2” 160lb football player and Zimmerman at 5’8 and 170 lbs, which is what the truth is and what his court appearance pictures and video reflect.”
Linda now shows news articles that report:
“USA today reports:
The jail booking report reveals that Zimmerman was born in Manassas, Va., and describes several tattoos:
He’s 5 feet, 8 inches tall, weighs 185 pounds, has a birthmark on his belly button and was born Oct. 5, 1983.
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2012/04/george-zimmerman-to-enter-not-guilty-plea-in-court-hearing-today/1
According to his previous attorneys, he lost weight.
According to partial police report, Trayvon was 6’0 and weighed 160 lbs when he died (that’s skinny) and Zimmermans weight wasn’t even listed.
so how do you know Zimmermans weight the night of the shooting, Doug…
where did you get 170 lbs from…oh I know, you are REPEATING OTHER PEOPLES OPINIONS.
I know repetition is the key and a great way to learn but it doesn’t turn FICTION to fact…
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@Linda
*slow clap*. You are brillant 😀
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First of all the pic of George Zimmeran at the top of this blog piece is a fraud pepetuated by a compicit left wing media in the US.
He didn’t look anything like that at the time of the shooting. As his chariging court appearnce made clear. Much thinner and less imposing and smaller.
As well even more so the Martin’s cvil lawsuit attempt to clean up Crump has spun the all too easy to spin left wing MSM about Trayvon looking like when he was 12-13. Very old pics only given to the media for weeks and weeks. Who accepted them. Corruption and extreme bias.
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http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/16/us-usa-florida-shooting-idUSBRE83F19Y20120416
“Neighbors of George Zimmerman say he had bandages on his nose and head the day after he shot dead Trayvon Martin, supporting statements by the neighborhood watch volunteer that he was beaten in a confrontation with the black Florida teenager.
Zimmerman later sought medical treatment for injuries including a broken nose, his former lawyers have said.”
Interesting from his neighbors. Now just need a MEDICAL report to back it up.
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Linda–
You’re ridiculous.
Are you really stupid??
Your rebuttal was so obviously off point as to be ridiculous. And stupid.
Really are you all emotional and otherwise simple minded?
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“Doug,
As well even more so the Martin’s cvil lawsuit attempt to clean up Crump has spun the all too easy to spin left wing MSM about Trayvon looking like when he was 12-13. Very old pics only given to the media for weeks and weeks. Who accepted them. Corruption and extreme bias.”
So, what Doug, does this make TMartin any less Dead…
or magically changes TMartin from 17-year old teenager to an adult.
Since you are so polically inclined, why don’t your write to each State to release anyone who has been arrested for “statutory rape” of 17 year old girls…oh, forgot, they look like grown “women” because they have breasts
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“doug1111
Linda–
You’re ridiculous.
Are you really stupid??
Your rebuttal was so obviously off point as to be ridiculous. And stupid.
Really are you all emotional and otherwise simple minded?”
Linda says,
Really Doug…that’s all you got…you WISH I was not on point
I posted links to actual news articles…I don’t make up stories like your or regurgitate incorrect information…
the only ridiculous, stupid, idiot on this board is you with your racist viewpoints
Why are you even here….oh yeah, Abagond wants you racist douches to stick around to show the world what nice, intelligent people you are (sarcasm if you missed it)
and the only emotional simplton is you for thinking the rest of us can’t read news articles or see through your BS
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Linda you bigot.
Sixteen year old girls are statutority legal to have sex wth with any age of men after attaining the age of 16. The age is 18 in only 11 states, including Califonia, which is very media infleuential. In the rest it’s 17 including NY. The national porn age is 18, based on interstate commerce.
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Linda–
Further these are very old sexual puritan ages for consent by interntational comparison. The average age in Europe is about 15, varying between 13 (Spain) and 18 in Russia, with most of the rest going between 14 and 16.
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Linda–
I meant the age of consent is a maority of al states at 16, then next at 17, and only last among 11 states at 18, including media mega influential California.
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“doug1111
Linda you bigot.”
LInda says,
Really, Doug, you should be struck by lightning for that statement.
and why am I not surprised that you know all about young girls having sex. LOL–pervert
and Doug, as a foreigner with a hispanic (latina) background, I could really care less about what you think…you can call me names if it makes you feel better.
doesn’t change the fact that you and the other resident white American posters (trolls) have admitted that you are “race realists (racists)” and your statements show you to be the only bigots on this board…
so, save your rhetoric for someone who cares and stop spinning fiction into fact.
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Linda–
Yes I’m most definitely a race realist who doesn’t believe in Marxist blank statism based on the scientific evidence or in the equality in basic raits such as IQ between the major geographic races.
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Abagond, just delete the post I have in moderation.
Doug, everyone needs something to believe in, it’s human nature
but that doesn’t mean that your opinions or beliefs are “absolute” truth…
as shown by the “Heaven’s Gate” followers
http://www.religioustolerance.org/dc_highe.htm
and you know the “December 2012’s” believers are hoping and prayer for destruction day.
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@doug:
So, not only you are a racist but you also promote sex between grown up men and pubic girls, eh? Well, that fits well in to your carachter.
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Linda–
That’s what his black friend was saying on TV interviews that Zimmerman’s weight was approximately.
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@ sam:
Exactly! He’s a racist, a misogynist, and a pseudo-paedophile…he’s done an AWFUL lot of research about the ‘legal age’ in different countries, no? 😀
Someone who wants to have sex with children is beyond any sort of help.
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raciss, raciss, raciss.
Nope. But a race realist, yes. There’s a difference, undamitted by most blacks and lefties.
Pedophile, no way. No interest in sex with children whatsoever. Was simply correcting someone who claimed for some reason that an adult of either gender having sex with a 17 yo was illegal in the US, whereas in fact it’s legal in all but 11 states (not to mention nearly all of Europe).
Abagond, I am not the one that introduced these off topic subjects. Just defending myself from scurilous accusations.
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”
Abagond, I am not the one that introduced these off topic subjects. Just defending myself from scurilous accusations.
”
@ Doug1111,
The perpetual victim, Doug1111?
How have you victimized others throughout your life. To take this seriously, YOU, need to reflect instead of react.
Which I know would require you to actually grow as a human being – asking a lot i know.
@ Everyone else,
Were these people dropped on their heads when they were infants because their heads turned 360 or vommitted in their parents faces? Their posts seriously have the sound of the demon from the Exorcist film in my head when i read them in my mind. LOL.
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doug for all those who call martin a child there are feeding off of the 4 year old photo’s the biased media is using to either feed their ratings or a race war being cooked up to devide and conquer us all.
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Zimmerman’s been assigned to a new judge after his old one stepped down on a motion from Zimmerman’s lawyer due to her having a conflict of interest.
http://www.wgnradio.com/news/top/os-george-zimmerman-judge-steps-aside-20120418,0,2538683.story
This judge looks much better for a fair trial for Zimmerman primarily because he has far more experience on the bench that she did (only 1.5 years) and partly for that reason looks much more likely resist black public pressure.
Ann Althouse, a law professor at the University of Wisconsin who’s on the moderate right, had a post a few days ago explaining how Zimmerman’s attorney O’Mara will have an opportunity to get this trial dismissed at a “stand your ground” hearing upon a motion for immunity from trial. At the hearing before the judge only, to get such immunity he’ll have to prove by a preponderance of the evidence that he was acting in self defense against possible loss of his life or great bodily injury.
http://althouse.blogspot.com/2012/04/stand-your-ground-is-not-defense-but.html
I think the preponderance of the evidence is clearly on Zimmerman’s side that he was acting in self defense.
This judge might just have the stones to so rule. The prior female one only 1.5 years on the bench looked VERY unlikely to do so.
Note that Zimmerman’s following Trayvon at a distance to keep him in sight, which we don’t even know he did after the 911 call ended but which Martin’s side claims, is not a crime and does not call into play a “stand your ground” defense on Martin’s side. Profiling Trayvon Martin partly on a racial and age basis (late teen), partly on clothing, partly on not recognizing him as being from the neighborhood, and partly for wandering around looking at houses and possibly casing them for burglary in the rain was also not a crime on Zimmerman’s part.
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@Doug
Nope. But a race realist, yes. There’s a difference, undamitted by most blacks and lefties.
Like what? What is the difference?
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@ Brothawolf
Excellent question!
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Yes, I too want to hear the difference.
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Let us all gather round and listen to Doug’s explanation!!! No longer shall we be left in ignorance of this difference!!
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In a nutshell racists have irrational bigoted hate or disdain for members of other races not based on facts but rather their own culturally racist folk beliefs. Race realists don’t but rather look to the science.
Race realists (some disparagingly called “scientific racists” by the left) believe from the scientific evidence that there are significant differences between the races that are more than skin deep, but that the nature of all such differences are matters of over lapping separate bell curves on the particular trait such as IQ or aggressiveness or propensity to commit crime. That is they are statistical group differences that don’t predict individuals at all well. Race realists also generally though not necessarily believe again from the scientific evidence that part but only part of the reason for such differences are genetic rather than entirely cultural and environmental.
In fact the HBD flavor of race realists which is by far most of them know enough about evolution and human evolution to realize it would be truly bizarre and unusual if more than skin deep differences hadn’t developed between largely not interbreeding (except at clinal borders) major geographic populations which further evolved in widely different geographic and human sociocultural environments. Significant evolutionary change takes far less time and human generations than people think. In fact genetic research has show that there has been about twice as many genetic changes in people over the last 10,000 years (since the development of agriculture and towns and cities) than in the prior 50,000.
Race realists do not believe in judging an individual by what racial group he’s part of except in certain situations where no other information is available or readily obtainable and it’s a matter of considerable importance such as safety. Race realists only believe in racial differences which are true or which there’s very good scientific reason to believe are true.
Racists on the other hand tend to have irrational prejudices against all or by far most members of certain other or sometimes all other races, and tend to irrationally hate and or fear them. Racists often or usually feel negative bigoted emotions towards all or almost all blacks. Racists do judge an individual entirely or mostly according to what race they’re a part of or at the least are very resistant to realizing the individual in question doesn’t exhibit the negative stereotypical behavior he imagines. Racists were usually brought up to be that and get their beliefs from folk byways rather than scientific studies and tests.
There’s plenty of racial hate on this site but it isn’t coming from me or e.g. Randy or a number of other non lefty whites. I’ve only see it coming from blacks including Abagond, who admits he’s a racist. He says repeatedly that all or virtually all whites are racists and that it’s a disease of whiteness. His black and far lefty white commentariate agrees with him. Well he did chase away a crop of white liberals with that insistence a few months ago, such as Zek, not that I liked or respected him (intellectually dishonest up the yin yang). I am however endless accused of racial hate merely for taking contrary views on some issues like whether Zimmerman should have been arrested. I based my views on the evidence. By far most here have based theirs on emotions and a made up Team Trayvon narrative not well supported by the evidence.
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@ Doug
That was kind of like saying you do not speak with an accent.
1. Few racists, or few of anybody, thinks they believe in “irrational prejudices”.
2. Don’t you accuse me of racial hate merely for taking contrary views on some issues?
3. If racism is having negative emotions about another race based on false views, then how would you not seem racist to us?
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“Doug,
I am however endless accused of racial hate merely for taking contrary views on some issues like whether Zimmerman should have been arrested. I based my views on the evidence. By far most here have based theirs on emotions and a made up Team Trayvon narrative not well supported by the evidence.”
Linda says,
I am not saying you shouldn’t support Zimmerman, you are an adult with choices in this life, but
Your arguments in favor of Zimmerman are also based on your emotions and your belief in Zimmermans subjective statements, just like everyone else on this board whose beliefs favor TMartin.
This is not a matter of right or wrong because none of us were there.
but there is no evidence that supports his claim of self defense, just as nothing is disproving his claim to self defense…that unfortunately is the problem with he say/she say cases like this.
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I meant to say
This is not a matter of who is right and who is wrong because none of us was there, so no one but Trayvon and Zimmerman knows the truth.
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We are actually questioning the validity of this ‘race science,’ reading into the research shows no attempts to control for factors such as education or environment. All other science tries to see all aspects and possible reasons for results, yet race realism focuses starts on a unilateral conclusion and look for evidence to support it rather than the other way around which is how science is done. Also, the brain volume tests people always bring up is invalidated by recent scientific evidence. In the scientific world, if someone disproves one aspect of a theory, the whole theory is deemed false. Also the average IQ scores between men and women are different. The difference in brain sizes seem to be far more pronounced within gender than race. Does your ‘race realism’ extend to ‘gender realism’?
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More science showing white test score differences between Whites and Blacks should be looked at very skeptically:
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1207/S1532480XADS0704_3
Abstract:
This study examined Black-White test score gaps in young children. Scores from a receptive verbal test (Peabody Picture Vocabulary Test-Revised [PPVT-R]) and 2 full-scale intelligence tests (Stanford-Binet Intelligence Scale and Wechsler Preschool and Primary Scale of Intelligence [WPPSI]) were examined in 2 samples: (a) the Infant Health and Development Program: 315 premature, low birth weight 3- and 5-year olds; and (b) the National Longitudinal Study of Youth-Child Supplement: 2,220 3- to 4-year-olds and 1,354 5- to 6-year-olds. Questions addressed by the study included the following: Would similar test score gaps be seen on both tests and at both ages? Would gaps be reduced by controlling for family conditions and home environment? Would similar gaps be seen for the different tests? Fifteen- to 25-point differences in Black-White test scores were seen at both ages. The addition of demographic conditions reduced the disparities to 9 to 17 points. Including home environment measures further reduced the disparities to 4 to 13 points. Test score gaps were 11/2 to 3 times larger for the PPVT-R than for the Stanford-Binet Intelligence Scale and the WPPSI.
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^^^ ****More science showing WHY test score differences *****
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who cares why the scores are different they are, however most of the differences are more cultural than anything. the black culture proclaims that education is not a black thing. if fact all cultures have different values such as being ignorant or good at sports(some better than others) to acknowledge this is not a bad thing. however yes some races or cultures do have propensity’s to crime in this nation their counterparts in other nations have other traits due to their surroundings affecting their cultural identity’s. it’s not race science to know how tihngs really work.
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Miguel,
What the hell kind of information you got that made you conclude that black culture proclaims that education isn’t a “black” thing? While we’re on that subject, why do you think that is without using numbers, statistics and test scores? Now, that I think of it, what does this have to do with George Zimmerman?
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brothawolf, first thing off. black people need to get over slavery, my people did & we were slaves for 700 years not a mere 150. where did I get that information?? from the mouths of black people I went to school with who I saw cutting class to go eat at the bbq place across the street from school (I was there with my electronics or drama teachers, being as I was a sysop & systems integrator & installer before there was such thing. the school systems gave me anything I wanted for a long time as to pay someone like me on the outside would have cost tens of thousands at what someone would have to pay for the expertise I had. that’s how I could be out of school without actually not being in school. while we were eating I was being educated at a higher level than the rest of the students about electronics drama etc.) I also saw and heard the words coming out of black kids(mostly the males. fyi I dated and almost married a black girl during and just out of high school for 6 years) . this has to do with the martin case that more blacks are criminals than any other cultures and how other cultures perceive black folk. I do believe that standardized test’s are slightly culturally biased but not so much that basic things are not the same. 2+2=4 no matter what your culture is. reading comprehension is also the same no matter what your culture.
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” black people need to get over slavery, my people did & we were slaves for 700 years not a mere 150.”
LOL How are we supposed to take this persona seriously? 150 years??
😛 Okay. And who brought up slavery? Seems like this Miguel person was the first to mention it.
LOL again @ “I dated and almost married a black girl”!
I just can’t today! I can’t even take this crap seriously aside from my laughter! 150 years! And it’s OUR reading comprehension that’s called into question. 😛
Carry on Miguel. I needed the laugh today! Thank you!
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@miguelmiguel:
Are you happen to be of mexican origin? If you are, then you should not be so excited about black crime. Just check south of the border. Whats the body count now? 30 000? 50 000?
Actually, nobody knows how many have been killed in the past ten years alone in the drug wars in northern Mexico. Nor nobody knows how many have been killed else where in various armed conflicts around that country in the past 20 years alone.
So if we talk about the criminality of a certain cultures, then, well, what about mehicanos and Mehico?
And once again, whats this got to do with George Zimmerman? Nada.
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People who brought slavery on a post about whether Zimmerman should be arrested:
Big Boss
Tyrone
Brahms
Miguel Miquel
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Miguel,
First off, I never mentioned anything about slavery.
Second, why are you giving me your educational background?
Third, and let me get this straight, those young black male kids actually said that education was not a “black” thing? As such that automatically means that black people or black culture don’t support education as that is against what it means to be black? Listen to how that sounds for a minute. Have you ever wondered why those black kids you met and not the entire black population didn’t like the education in that area. I doubt it, but I look forward to your answer.
Fourth, don’t give me that “I had a black girlfriend” excuse to try to keep from being called a racist.
Fifth, most criminals are not black and most blacks are not criminals. I can only imagine where you came up with the conclusion. In any case Zimmerman thought that Martin was a typical black male criminal up to no good the same way you assumed that black people protest education since you heard it from a small group of black kids. You two just basically indicted the entire black group on what a small group of blacks have done, or in Zimmerman’s case, assumed that a black person had no business in a gated, mostly white community unless he is up to no good seeing as how you believe that more blacks are criminals than any other culture. You two shared the same sentiment, and it was that sentiment that led to Trayvon Martin’s death which is not based on fact, but racist stereotypes that you apparently believe in.
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not the first to bring up slavery. nobody should ever be arrested for speaking their mind period , freedom of speech is about unpopular speech not popular speech
#3 I have traveled to almost every major and mid sized city in the usa & canada, and spent more than a week or two in each one over 7 times. this is the mentality of blacks in all of those areas not just my own. “Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness.” samuel clemens I’ve lived these words definatly not a racist or a bigot, as I have black people in my family down in cuba where there is no such thing as racism, nor do I believe in it. however to sell products at the level I did for Ringling you have to understand how people work. yes black people are lazier, I had to fire thousands of those before any other class of people.
#4 black gf is not an excuse I also had a black gf when I was 8 & we were the best of friends as well as my pueto rican, jamacain, honduran, mexican, (grew up having friends from all over the world living in miami for a large portion of my childhood in miami fl, & Ringling circus) I”m not a racist because I don’t feel that my race is superior (which is what a racist is someone who feels their race is superior , the japanese are very guilty of this)
#5 yes black people do have a disporportianate amount of criminal class in their makeup. indicted a whole race on what I’ve seen them talk about in over 410 different city’s , having been an employer of over 65 people at any one time . I had to fire over a dozen people every other day , most of them were black, that tried to steal from me or were just to lazy to do the job. this is not racism but facts that just happen to have black faces (american blacks as to not insult jamaican , haitian, or real africans who in my experience also have never had anything good to say about the american blackman.)
never did I say a black person does not belong in a gated community , just not one dressed like a thug. I can tell you of many well to do black family
‘s in las vegas who live in gated community’s 3 gates deep where you don’t get in under any circumstance unless you belong there. I can tell you that many basketball players have been evicted from these places for acting and dressing like trayvon and these are multimillionares who actually belong there, but the well to do ones never dressed like trayvon or walked around the back of peoples home like trayvon did. dress like a thug expect to be profiled as one. if one knows that the whole world associates hoodies and gold teeth with thugdom then don’t wear either in a nice community. no there is no dress code to live somewhere , but society still has certain unpoken rules that we all adhere by. like don’t dress like a bankrobber in a bank. get real dude.
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@ Miguel Miquel:
Ringling? As in Ringling Circus? What’s your job? A clown? That would explain everything. lol!
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@ Miguel
Maybe they saw that you had a small ego and were prejudiced against them so they basically made you look like the tool that you are.
Also what kind of moron keeps hiring a people that he thinks he will have to fire? Did that give you a sense of power?
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Miguel, I brought in an article on the Broken Africa thread that said many black scholars condemn Fidel Castro’s racism in Cuba
Good point about Mexico, Sam, good heavy lifting there Brothawolf
So let me get this straignt, race realists depend on weak scientific information , things that undoubtalby will change in 40 years, that is the way science works, to put in the back of their mind that groups of black people are inferior….or, they atribute it to culture? When black Americans invented and innovated American culture on their backs, in slavery and after…
This is what Zimmerman’s problem was, atributing aspects of dress to “culture” , a false notion of culture, and coming to conclusions about that.
False notions of science, false notions of culture
JT great point from you also about that study…envirment..that was part of your point also Brothawolf
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@ Miguel,
Also – can i ask? Are you intoxicated in your gravatar photo?
Also – can i ask? Have you seen this video? (https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/02/24/racist-white-teen-girls-goes-on-a-rant-about-blacks/)
Do you know what ethnicity the lead racist is? Do you know if she claims to have any Black friends/partners?
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@ Miguel,
Aren’t you the same person who said that he has not 1 phd but 7 phD’s? What are you doing in the circus if you have 7 phD’s?
Lets be straight up – once people see that you are a lying drunken bigot, your testimony becomes garbage. Just like Doug1111’s.
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@ JT:
Miguel has claimed he has 7 PhDs. I’m guessing all of it came from clown college. 😉
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@ JT:
Miguel has claimed he has 7 PhDs. I’m guessing all of it came from clown college.
”
”
@ leigh204,
LOL. Probably!
Miguel probably learned from the best:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LwtJFULFGU)
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Zimmerman got a reasonably low bail, 150k.
The prosecution had an incentive in pandering to blacks to try to present compelling evidence he committed second degree murder, because if they could under Florida law it would be a reason for the judge to not grant bail. They presented absolutely nothing new. Makes me think they have nothing significant we who’ve been paying attention don’t already know.
Further, defense attorney O’Mara actually put Zimmerman on the stand. You don’t do that with most innocent defense clients much less guilty ones. Prosecution got nothing damaging out of it. Yeah the main reason was that Zimmerman wanted to apologize to Trayvon’s family for the death of their son. (Not for shooting him in self defense; rather that he died.)
The prosecution’s investigator on the stand admitted the prosecution doesn’t know who started the fight. That’s incredibly weak sauce on their side. The whole human dynamics of the situation were that Trayvon would enormously more likely have been the one to get physical first – Zimmerman says by sucker punching him in the nose, breaking it (which his attorney had hospital records of having happened in court), and knocking him to the ground. Zimmerman knew that he’d called the cops and that they’d arrive shortly – Trayvon did not. Trayvon had reason to be mad at Zimmerman for being “dissed” (a huge deal for many young black males), that is for being profiled, suspected and followed. Zimmerman had no reason to be mad at Trayvon and didn’t sound mad on his 911 call, only suspicious. Trayvon was an 6’2 160lb football athlete to Zimmerman’s 5’8 170lbs. There’s also no evidence that Zimmerman was ever following Trayvon closely; rather in his 911 call he indicated he was trying to keep him in sight so he could tell the police when they arrived where he was.
The prosecution is looking weaker and weaker in this case.
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For those that still argue Trayvon wasn’t bashing Zimmerman’s head against the concrete sidewalk, here’s a police photo taken soon after they arrived:
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/new_photo_shows_zimmerman_bloody_H0OsgAUdCP4CdBfZhpcM2K
Also the funeral director stated that Trayvon had “no signs of a fight” on his body.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/new_photo_shows_zimmerman_bloody_H0OsgAUdCP4CdBfZhpcM2K
Obviously with that phrasing he’s trying to play into the early Martin lawyer Crump’s narrative that Zimmerman simply gunned Trayvon down in cold blood for being suspiciously black in a hoodie, but nonetheless that’s what he said.
The US media should be ashamed of itself for how it handled the early reporting of this, spun by Crump, which is what feed the black and lefty hysteria.
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The US media should be ashamed of itself for how it handled the early reporting of this, spun by Crump, which is what feed the black and lefty hysteria.
”
”
Doug1111,
If that photo was taken three minutes after the supposed bashing of Zimmerman’s head into cement, you would see an actual laceration on his head. From that photo, all you see is some dried blood stains and a superficial cut.
Is that the best the right-wing spin machine has got? I am dying to see *ANYTHING* supporting that Zimmerman had nose trauma.
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The spin machine in this case has overwhelmingly been coming from Team Trayvon’s slimeball civil lawyer Crump and his left wing media acomplices at ABC, NBC and CNN. Fraudulent pictures of Trayon since they’re about four years old when he was an angelic looking little boy, tales of Zimmerman hunting Trayvon down when there was zero evidence of that, NBC’s outrageously edited version of Zimmerman’s 911 recording to make it look like Zimmerman was acting out of racial animus, etc., etc., etc.
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Also I think it’s shameful that Robert Zimmerman Sr. uses second amendment rhetoric to rally pro-gun looney tunes around his son’s case. Talk about exploiting a tragedy. That judge (Robert Zimmerman Sr.) should be ashamed of himself.
http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entries/father-george-zimmerman-is-never-violent-unless-provoked
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The blood blood which is obviously still wet and just starting to dry is covering the two long lacerations. Dried blood is dark purple not bright red. The two long lacerations can be seen in blow ups of the surveillance video at the police station.
O’Mara had written evidence in court from the hospital that Zimmerman went the next day that his nose had been broken.
The evidence is overwhelming that Trayvon was beating Zimmerman up badly and continuing to do so at the time Zimmerman shot him.
The prosecutor’s investigator admitted on the witness stand that they have no evidence as to who started the phsical fight.
Circumstantial evidene is strong that it was Trayvon. Trayvon had reason to be mad at Zimmerman for “dissing” him (as so many young black males are so prone to get mad about especially if it’s by a non black) by profiling him, suspecting him, and following him. Zimmerman in contrast didn’t sound mad at Trayvon on his 911 call but rather merely suspicious. Further he knew the cops were coming shortly since they told him there were on his 911 call wereas Trayvon didn’t. Further Trayvon was a 6’2″ 160 lb in shape football playing athlete to Zimmerman’s 5’8″ 170 lb. Further starting a physical fight when armed with a gun would be a very stupid thing to do, since things could turn out as they did, or worse Trayvon would have wrested the gun from him.
Two Zimmerman proxies have said that the gun became visible after a bit in the struggle and that it’s only then that Zimmerman went for it and shot Trayvon.
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The differences between how the Martin’s Crump on the one hand versus O’Mara on the other in how they have handled themselves before the media are like night and day. Crump is a sleazeball.
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ok fidel himself might be racist but us cubans are not. yes i was drunk in the gravatar photo I had just earned a large lump sum in less than 10 days. I’m not a bigot or a racist. I love all people equally . I operated novelty stands and food factory’s for Ringling for quite a while then Disney on ice.I have friends from all over the world. I don’t hate anybody.
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@ Miguel
Then why all the vile posts?
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http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/04/20/Dershowitz-prosecution-immoral
Dershowitz must be raciss, raciss, raciss, right gang?
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@ Doug1111,
Here are the facts, as they lay bare for the world to see:
LOL do you not see that you are contradicting yourself: the physical evidence shows there to be a small posterior head wound. Not demonstrative of “being beaten severely” as you race realists love to repeat.
You claim that Zimmerman has the right to self defense but his right to self-defense does not supercede Trayvon’s right to self defense. Zimmerman is the adult who’s actions belie belligerence in this story. Dismissing guidance to stay in his vehicle. Trayvon was the minor who was being stalked by a seemingly intoxicated or enraged Zimmerman.
Why dont you address the fact that Zimmerman has a criminal history of assault (2005) and has harassed the police force with his 46 calls that turned out to be nothing.
He should have been stripped of his duty as WATCHman a long time ago. This is not a man that was doing his volunteer job well at all. More likely, he got his position because of his daddy.
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JT—
That’s true. Well I don’t just claim both have a right to self defense, that’s what Florida law and the law in all the other states provide, with some variations, mostly upon whether there’s a requirement to retreat first if that’s highly likely to not be a risky course of action.
There is no evidence that Zimmerman hit Trayvon first or at all in fact. There’s tons of evidence that Trayvon had completely overcome Zimmerman and had him at his mercy, what with Zimmerman’s broken nose and two long lacerations on the back of his head consistent with Zimmerman’s plausible story that Trayvon was bashing his head against the concrete sidewalk repeatedly. Yet there’s eye witness accounts that Trayvon was still continuing to punch Zimmerman in the face repeatedly while sitting on his chest, perhaps limiting his breathing, up until the moment when Zimmerman shot Trayvon.
There is no stand your ground right of using assault and battery in Florida or any other state in order to keep yourself from being racially profiled or followed from a distance or even closely followed (for which there’s absolutely no evidence and considerable 911 evidence against). It’s a false equivalence.
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Doug,
You said that racists are “racists have irrational bigoted hate or disdain for members of other races not based on facts but rather their own culturally racist folk beliefs. Race realists don’t but rather look to the science.”
Then you said race realists “Race realists (some disparagingly called “scientific racists” by the left) believe from the scientific evidence that there are significant differences between the races that are more than skin deep, but that the nature of all such differences are matters of over lapping separate bell curves on the particular trait such as IQ or aggressiveness or propensity to commit crime. That is they are statistical group differences that don’t predict individuals at all well. Race realists also generally though not necessarily believe again from the scientific evidence that part but only part of the reason for such differences are genetic rather than entirely cultural and environmental.”
Here’s the problem: You who proclaimed that you are a racist have also said showed your disdain and hatred in a lost of responses along with your “science”. You left an extremely hateful comment in another post when you were drinking, and they say alcohol is known to make people tell the truth.
Let’s not forget that you–as always–mix science and politics. Anything you disagree with when it comes to race and racism is considered leftist and therefore, hold no merit. So, does that mean race realism is conservative and should be more plausible? But isn’t race realism a science and not a political movement? Isn’t there a difference between the two? Furthermore, isn’t it unwise and immature not to consider the other point of view or the evidences that support it?
Also, can’t the two, racists and race realists, intersect? (One so-called race realist even called me the n-word after I told him not to come to my blog anymore. Isn’t that something racists do) So, why can’t they? Both hold the exact same conclusions concerning black people, that they are inferior. Both hold disdain towards blacks. Both use statistics and news articles, real or fake, to prove their point.
In short I don’t buy it one bit. They are both virtually the same. Race realism is a way to cover one’s racist beliefs and use science (fiction) to excuse it. After all, racists and self-proclaimed race realists both believe that race is real.
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Doug,
First off, instead of acknowledging that you are wrong, you pick one point that you have a negligible response to and then call it a day. That is the epitome of intellectual dishonesty.
You openly exaggerate the extent of Zimmermans injury. There are no large lacerations. You want laceration, this is laceration.
http://www.google.ca/search?q=head+laceration&hl=en&gbv=2&prmd=ivns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&ei=G–RT8HQI-TE2gWKhYD8BA&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ
Stop writing your freaking stupid@$$ line about how Blacks hate to be “d-ed” that is one of the stupidest things ive heard on here ever. People don’t like to be disrespected no matter what ethnicity. And if you got your A$$ handed to you because of the fact that you did disrespect a Black person then I would say that you got what you earned. Taught you a lesson that you won’t need repeating.
And you describe an attack by Trayvon that never happened. IN fact I wouldn’t be surprised if Zimmerman caused himself all/any injuries to cover up what really happened. That would explain why Zimmerman’s lesions are barely even visible (if Trayvon had done it, it would be at least visible since bashing ANOTHER PERSON’s head against the ground repeatedly like that liar Robert Zimmerman described would be VISIBLE lacerations, not just a piddle of blood that dried up). Plus GZ would have a very low tolerance for pain so if he had to self-inflict some sort of injury he wouldnt be able to make it deep. It would look like the little scrape that he has there because he would lack the pain threshold to inflict something more clearly
You say that there were witnesses supporting Zimmerman’s point of view. Arent these the same witnesses that Zimmermans family has befriended and neighboured for years/decades. Why would their POV be respected since they have all allegiance and incentive to support Zimmerman’s POV and no allegiance and incentive to support Trayvon’s POV.
Also, why is his nose not swollen/bleeding in any of the mug shots/footage taken thereafter. It is not crooked now, it wasn’t bruised at the police station. And if he had a broken nose, why didn’t he photograph that like he did with the little scrape on his head? A broken nose is more of an injury than a scrape on his head and would be shown quite obviously in the minutes/hours after as in the mug shot.
Where are the photos of this broken nose?? You keep repeating this lie – now its time to put your money where your mouth is.
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Brothawolfe–
I think you mean overlap and yeah, I think they do in some cases, but not in my case or any other of the non lefty white commenters on this board I’ve noticed when I’ve come here from time to time.
I think a much larger phenomenon is that racists like most of the Stormfront folks and certainly the KKK people, have groked that calling themselves race realists sells better with moderate and other mainstream conservatives.
I said something here once I regret (that wasn’t really irrational but was inflammatory) and said I regretted it yes, but that’s the smallest measure of nothing compared to the racial hate that has expressed against me by just about all the non black or far lefty commenters on here.
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JT–
The amount of bias through which you view the emergent facts in this case is overwhelming.
ABC news, which was the first national MSM enrollee in Team Trayvon describes the pic as having been taken about three minutes after the shooting, by an ear witness to the screams before and gun shot, who then became an after the fact eye witness. Your extremely contrived and biased theory is not plausible. None other than (most) black jurors (in a national furor case of this kind) would consider it so.
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Says the guy that references the andrew breitbart’s website to prove his points. Yeah you are the height of objectivity.
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Miguel, let’s get a few things straight because what you’re saying makes no sense:
Just because you claim freedom of speech, doesn’t mean you get to say whatever you want, and not expect someone to use their right to say something in return especially if it’s wrong. You’re not the only one who can say what he wants.
So, you traveled all over this country and met every single black person and they all didn’t believe in education because it wasn’t a “black” thing. That makes a lot of sense. And you fired thousands of black people because they are lazy, and so, all black people are lazier. But, goodness forbid that you are a racist. Not you. You don’t indict an entire race for the actions of a few. SMH.
You don’t have to feel that your race is superior to be a racist. You can have a racist mentality about other races and your own race. There are people of color who think very less of their own people and will side with the racist mentality.
Again, blacks have a criminal class, and they are the only people with that class, huh? You’ve been to over 410 cities which is hard to believe and fired people, most of them black, because they stole or were lazy. But hey! You’re not a racist. Not by a long shot.
Lastly, and this is the tipper, black people are not allowed in gated communities if they are dressed like thugs. So, it’s all about the image huh? All black men with hoodies and sagging pants are thugs, right, and they don’t belong where they are not wanted because they look like thugs, and only black men are the ones who dress like this.
How did Trayvon act? Let me guess, like a thug, right? And it’s because he dressed like one according to you. So, he had what was coming to him all because he looked like a thug which usually is used to describe young black males.
But like you said, you’re not a racist.
Do you realize how you sound? You said you’re not a racist. Yet, you said racist statements. If you can’t or won’t see it, maybe it’s you who are lazy if you don’t want to see where you were offensive.
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Not to mention Doug1111s statements about Blacks being dead weight and how he wishes their was a humane way to get rid of them.
Yeah, we can really trust on you to report the facts when it comes to Black people.
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Doug,
That’s what I meant. Overlap. Thanks for correcting me.
But what makes you exempt from being called a racist? You said many things–and then some–that were indeed racist and offensive. That’s the whole point. It’s not about what you were saying or trying to say. It’s about how it was felt by the group you were talking about. If we said it was racist, it’s not about us being wrong. It’s about us being offended whether you make it ‘scientific’ or not. Period.
So, you admit there are racists over at sites like Stormfront. However, why won’t you challenge the racism over there like you always do here? Isn’t that kind of racism hateful and hurtful as much as, as you always say, the posts and comments made about whiteness?
Finally, the bottom line is what you said was among other things you’ve said that was offensive. Yet, you regret mentioning that one thing and not the rest, but then turn around and make it seem like you’re the victim when your “race realism” was hurtful enough.
The bottom line is that you don’t get to decide how we should feel. Statements by you, Bliff, Brahms, Miguel, and whoever else not claiming to be racist are still screaming hurtful things while discounting any and all experiences of racism where blacks are the victims. Being told that your race is inferior by science is like saying that you, as a member of that race, is doomed before you were even born.
That’s why I asked Bliff if he were to tell him if he would tell a black child that he or she is inferior, would he. He gave me some half-assed response about telling the child to read a book that makes his point. I forgot the name, but the point is would HE tell that child and not some book. I told him that, but he has yet to answer.
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brothawolfe–
Utter PC culturally Marxist rubbish. I don’t believe in this utterly subjective and forever moving the goal posts leftist standard of what’s racist and therefore morally wrong.
I believe in objective truth.
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JT—
It’s no lie whatsoever. Of course nobody likes being disrespected but young black males, and also to a somewhat lesser but also considerable extent Latino ones as well are far more likely to get violent about it if they think they can prevail than other ethnicities. I do think this is mostly cultural however and comes from feeling at the bottom of the social order. There was a time when the Irish and then the Italians, or many of such ethnicities from their less prosperous (or more organized crime) ranks acted similarly. They both calmed down mostly about it since, other than mafia.
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At this estimable black blog, run by a black professor at Syracuse university, maybe about 1/3-1/4 of the comments call implicitly or explicitly for someone in the “black community” to kill Zimmerman when he’s released on bail. Lovely black America, just lovely. Not racist much right?? But lynching was?
http://newsone.com/2003634/zimmerman-bail/
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JT–
Breitbard was a conservative who went on the attack, so what? He was a whole hell of a lot more objective and less utterly misleading than this site for example.
Conservates in generally particularly of the pundit and intellectual or academic variety tell one hell of a lot less lies than lefties in the same position generally do. Now when you’re talking about politcal campaign spinners and the like I’d say the Repubs and Dems are about equal on that.
The whole PC set of taboos defend a whole fabric of lies about race and gender and radical equalism.
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Laying blame on forty million Blacks for comments written by anonymous posters on some obscure internet blog. Lovely doug1111, just lovely.
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@farfum blacks are very together on this and use their churches as a way of keeping together in unity & in lockstip on black issues such as this one.
yes most black people are dead wait seeing as the majority of them are on welfare or food stamps. to observe this is not racist just factual about a social group that just happens to be black.
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Hey Doug, were have you been for the last few days, resting up? Were you on vacation? On the wagon again?
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Oh, drunken clown Miguel Miquel has decided to join drunken bigot Doug1111 on the “Blacks are dead weight” bandwagon. At least they are all coming out as the completely biased and completely discredible posters that we always knew they were. Thank you boys.
Now time to down a 2-4 right Doug? Right Miguel?
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@ Miguel
Weren’t you the “genius” who was whining about Black people and their “150 years of slavery”? lol 😛
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I have yet to see ANY black pundants, or for that matter blog commenters who I knew to be black, take a “tend to think Zimmerman was acting in self defense but want to see all the evidence” stance. Maybe there are some but I haven’t seen them. Well outside of self identified conservative blacks which are a tiny part of the black community. There are considerable number of black pundants who have stayed shut on the issue.
In contrast there were and are a whole lot of whites who tended esp. at first to think Zimmerman was guilty without a valid self defense defense, and not just those on the far left. Moderates as well and a lot of conservates as well, e.g. Mitch Lowry, editor in chief of the National Review.
The prejudice here tilts way in one direction.
I wasn’t sure at first that Zimmerman had a valid defense but I was sure early on that the lefty MSM was railroading him. That’s begun to turn around, as more facts come out, and it’s less all about Martin sleazeball lawyer Crump spinning the play for access leftist media.
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I KNEW Miguel Miquel attended clown college, what, with his 7 PhDs and all.
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Zimmerman is guilty: of stalking and murdering Trayvon Martin in cold blood. No amount of race realist spin is going to change that fact Doug1111. You can give up trying to pretend like you are objective in the least. You have already told us that you wished there was a humane way to rid the USA of Blacks. Stop tiptoeing around your own words. Take ownership of being the white racist that you are.
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DarqBeauty–
He was off by not wildly off. There was 185 years of slavery in the US, using the end of the civil war rather than the emancipation proclamation as the end and the beginning being when both black slaves stopped being treated like temporary white indentured servants and when large numbers started to be imported into Virginia and other southern colonies.
It’s entirely true that the three main reasons why Euro whites felt it ok to treat purchased Africans as slaves rather than indentured servants is that 1) they’d purchased them from dominant African tribes in Africa rather than contracting with them to pay off the costs of their passage with interest as with indentured servants; 2) they weren’t Christian upon becoming slaves; and 3) they were thought way less smart and more child like (except re violence) emotionally. Something that all races have always thought about blacks except when morally prohibited with severe social sanctions for those with a lot to lose.
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I can’t believe anyone could take genocidal dougs words seriously. He’s a joke. You’ll never get rid of us. Never. Go drink some more wine or moonshine or whatever it is you drink. At least you are more truthful that way.
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@Doug111
One post out of 67 is between 1/4th and 1/3rd? This is why no one takes you seriously. You’re an idiot who consistently shows that he can only argue dishonestly. And before you try to save face and claim that “it was a rough estimate”, the fact that you weren’t even in the ballpark remotely (when it comes to 4th grade math), just demonstrates that you are the last person to comment on any sort of genetics.
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Franklin_
One post utter horseshiite. MOst were careful to not call for it explicitly (which would be a crime), but lots and lots of others hinted at it in obvious ways.
You and yours rarely take responsibility or call out your co ethnics/racial group in this country on any heated topics. Whites call each other out on same all the time. That’s a good part of why you lot aren’t really taken seriously, but are only used as a political and social climbing football among whites.
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Darqbeauty–
Nope. Have never in my life advocated genocide.
However I do think that importing mass numbers of ssAfricans to America was the biggest long term mistake whites ever made in this country, by far.
It also wasn’t good for the black slaves, though whether it was worse than being a black slave in Africa is debateable. It was certainly better than being ablack slave in e.g. Brazil according to Thomas Sowell, mainly using mortality rates, since objectivity in this area is hard. But as to the black Americans ancestors of today to those slaves, well they’re the richest on average black population in the world.
I don’t think there’s today any such contemporary benefit to whites but rather costs, and northern whites had never had more than a pittance of such slave labor in numbers.
That’s what I was getting at. I’m sure you don’t like that either but I think it’s factual overall. Not that there aren’t some areas of great contribution. But overall compared to more white or E. Asian immigration?
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I went to that link and I counted 1 definite and 1 maybe. That is NOWHERE near 1/4 or 1/3. He can’t even do simple mathematics and he expects us to listen to him lecture us on genetics? On inferiority? Maybe he thought us “intellectually inferior” Blacks wouldn’t go looking at the link. Don’t know and don’t care. He called for our genocide. He can go straight to hell with gasoline drawers on.
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Doug, I know you think we are a stupid people and it’s easy to insult our intelligence but most of the regular posters remember your wonderfully candid little comment. You’re a fool and undeserving even the modicum of respect that people give you in their response. You’re a vile person and you have a dark heart. I don’t care what you say to me. Your words are muck on the bottom of my shoe. I pay them just enough mind to scrape them off. That’s all I have to say to you.
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Doug,
You said, “Utter PC culturally Marxist rubbish. I don’t believe in this utterly subjective and forever moving the goal posts leftist standard of what’s racist and therefore morally wrong.I believe in objective truth.”
I said “It’s not about what you were saying or trying to say. It’s about how it was felt by the group you were talking about. If we said it was racist, it’s not about us being wrong. It’s about us being offended whether you make it ‘scientific’ or not. Period.”
You did it again. This isn’t about politics or science all the time. Sometimes it’s about emotions. Sometimes you have to drop the “proven by science” in order to get to the heart of why certain people felt insulted. That’s not Marxist or Leftist. That’s called being courteous and open-minded. You may even learn something from the very people you continue to biologically bash instead of relying on other whites to tell you how we are, especially the ones who have hardly conversed with a black person before in their lives. But unless you stop closing your mind and drop the “I know more about you than you” attitude, you won’t learn a thing.
Why not trying to learn about a new truth, the truth from the people themselves, and not automatically shun them when they try to tell you something that you may not know. It could change your life for the better.
Miguel,
You said, “blacks are very together on this and use their churches as a way of keeping together in unity & in lockstip on black issues such as this one.
yes most black people are dead wait seeing as the majority of them are on welfare or food stamps. to observe this is not racist just factual about a social group that just happens to be black.”
It’s obvious that you haven’t or didn’t read a word I typed to you, did you? Assuming that everything you’ve said concerning you traveling all over the country and firing blacks, that still does not qualify you on being an expert on black people. That’s like Sarah Palin saying how she could see Russia from her hometown, and claim she’s an expert on foreign affairs.
Part of racism means that you see certain groups not as individuals, but as a monolithic collection of the same kind of person, and usually that image is negatively stereotypical. That is what you do.
By the way, the word is ‘weight’ not ‘wait’.
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Darkbeauty–
Your count is utterly prejudiced rubbish.
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@ Doug111
Less desperate attempts to hide the fact that you were (once again) a blatant liar, and more admissions on your part that you were inarguably wrong. The rest of your post was just more pathetic and derailing, white, paper-tiger, posturing. Don’t be so quick to skate to a new topic when we’re still pointing out how utterly incorrect the points you make are. It doesn’t look good.
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sarah palin ??? what she meant to say is russia can be seen from alaska giving her a special perspective as govenor of the state being privy to reports from the national guard. however there is no analagy. I’ve dealt with hundreds of thousands if not millions of people selling cotton candy & learned how to get what i wantn by manipulating peoples ldeals. you can’ do this without knowing how all social groups operate. so yes you can group a social group into a monotlithic group it works very well. weight, dead weight that does nothing to furthe society. & yes black amercians do walk in lockstep idealism through their churches I hear about it every night from my dad’s black gf. also black americans all over do say to be educated is not black. get real. face the facts not what you think the world is about. I did not get to be #1 vendor for years in a row by not seeing the writing on the wall.
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Franklin–
So much racial hate in this comment and so little logic. As seems typical around here.
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oh I did not specialize in firing people because they were black , some of my best workers were black, however out of the thousands up thousands of people who did not produce or even try hard, happened to be black.
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Zimmerman’s team really needs some good medical reports..that they most likely won’t have since Zimmerman didn’t go to the hospital right after the incident. He may well go to jail (up to life) for that poor judgment because it brings into doubt the seriousness of his injuries. The bloody head photos..doesn’t look life threatening. Some short of scuffle is clear but it doesn’t prove the shot was in self-defense. Still seems like poor decision making on Zimmerman’s part imo.
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DeeDee–
The issue is much less about the seriousness of his injuries at the time of the shooting than the reasonableness of Zimmerman’s fear of serious bodily injury if he didn’t act with potentially but not intentionally no evidence has shown, deadly force.
The prior injury does inform the likelihood of greater but it’s not like Trayvon after achieving complete supremacy stopped beating Zimmerman and just started insulting him. There’s no evidence of that whatsoever. Nor even a claim so far. He was beating away without mercy or signs of stopping.
Yeah, he was rightfully shot.
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@ Doug111
Stop playing The Race Card, and actually provide some sort of evidence that I’m indeed incorrect in my assessment of your earlier post.
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But here’s the thing. We cannot assume that Trayvon was “beating away with no mercy”. Zimmerman’s words have no real worth without thorough medical reports to support harsh injuries. A person can punch someone in the face without using full force, medical docs will help support any claim of extreme force being used on Martin’s part. So it is not fair to assume that Martin was “rightfully shot”. We were not there. How do we know that Martin had “complete supremacy”? Does that mean Zimmerman was completely immobile? Highly unlikely if he could reach under his jacket and into his pants to pull out a gun (the location of it mentioned in the initial report). There are key details that Zimmerman might not be mentioning. It feels like he is solely given his side which is understandable but I wonder what really happened versus what Zimmerman perceived happened.
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@ Miguel, Miguel,
I highly doubt you going to a “black church” or having a black girlfriend (I”m giving your the benefit of the doubt but something tells me you don’t really have one…) gives you any real perspective on how black people think about education, or how they work. You don’t have some “secret” black people knowledge. And if the only thing you connected between the employees you’ve supposedly fired (I highly doubt you’d have been put in charge of thousands of black people but I don’t know…) is their race and “laziness”, then I have to question your competence. Maybe you should check your own bias before you start rushing to say racist things about people or justify racist treatment.
@ Doug,
Something tells me to that to you, being shot while black would equal being “rightfully shot”.
Also…
Why are they racist for disagreeing with you? You do realize that you actually HAVE to act racist to be racist. Calling people out for their actions is NOT racist.
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Doug,
Let me ask a straightforward question, did you have prejudices against blacks before you became a “race realist”? Be honest.
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Miguel,
Whatever came out of Palin’s mouth was as intelligent as owning a pet rock. Anywho, I find it hard to believe that you literally met that many people in your lifetime. I find it even harder to swallow that you can get what you want by manipulating people’s ideals. If you’re trying to do that in this blog, you are failing miserably. No one takes you seriously, except for certain fellows.
You said, “yes you can group a social group into a monotlithic group it works very well. weight, dead weight that does nothing to furthe society. & yes black amercians do walk in lockstep idealism through their churches I hear about it every night from my dad’s black gf. also black americans all over do say to be educated is not black.”
So, you are a racist. That’s a significant part of what racism is. You can’t deny anymore now that you’ve made that statement, nor can you hide behind the thought that knowing a black person makes you immune to it. It’s now out in the open. Goodness knows what your black friends and relatives would think about you if they saw this or heard you say similar things out loud.
Seriously, you’re sounding like a total ass right now. No one knows an entire population of people. There are over 40 million blacks in this nation alone, and you can’t possibly have met most of them, or interacted with them. That’s bullshit.
I’m starting to think that your travels and jobs and anything else to make you look like an overachiever is just a crock lies to make you appear credible and important. You have self-esteem issues I think, and like all the lovable trolls that appear online, you tear down blacks to make yourself feel better.
I know I repeat that explanation so many times with different people, but if the shoe fits, wear it.
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Doug said, “The prior injury does inform the likelihood of greater but it’s not like Trayvon after achieving complete supremacy stopped beating Zimmerman and just started insulting him. There’s no evidence of that whatsoever. Nor even a claim so far. He was beating away without mercy or signs of stopping…Yeah, he was rightfully shot.”
Damn. There’s nothing scientific about that last sentence, nor is there any sign of compassion whatsoever even if he was a youth of color. If Trayvon was ll years-old and was shot by Zimmerman, you would still find ways to justify his murder.
Doug, there is nothing scientific about saying someone was rightfully shot. I could flip your routine and say how that was a typical conservative response to a murder of a black youth. I could go further and say that data shows that whites lack empathy for blacks and other POC. So, the racist backlash from Martin’s murder proves that whites lack that quality towards non-whites, and you certainly harbor that trait.
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This is gettin more sick as the time goes by.
@dougie:
Are serious? Are you really serious? You must be really dumb.
“For those that still argue Trayvon wasn’t bashing Zimmerman’s head against the concrete sidewalk, here’s a police photo taken soon after they arrived:”
I do not know in what La La land you live but those two little cuts do not indicate any “bashing” of that head at all. Couple cuts and bashing? Get real. And where are the pictures of Zimmermans broken nose and face which Trayvon “was beating without mercy”?
Google any picture of battered housewives and look what they look like after their spouses have hit them few times. Google any pictures of broken noses and you’ll see what I mean. Look at any picture of pugilist after a good fight, or after a good beating, and compare those to the surveillance video of mr Zimmerman comin to the station. You get it, son?
Mr Zimmerman steps out from the police car, very easily I might add (which most people will find a bit tricky if they have their hands cuffed), he is not disoriented at all, does not apper to be dizzy, which he would be if his head had been banged on the concrete, his nose is completely fine, his eyes are not swollen up, his eyes are not gettin black and blue, as they would be if his nose was actually smashed, there is no blood on his clothes to be seen etc.
I have seen people gettin tiny cuts in their heads and minute later their faces are covered with blood. I have had my face covered compelety with blood from a small bleeding of the nose in the ring after just a couple punches from the opponent. It is because when you fight, your blood pressure shots up to the sky. Your blood will pour out like hell. Add to that the sweat and you look like a red monster in a minute or two. Your shirt will be covered with blood.
Now, how the hell mr Zimmermans are not? Those two tiny cuts on the back of his head and little rivets of blood? Thats it? No blood on his jacket? Down to his neck to his shirt? If he was smashed against the concrete repeatedly there would be blood all over the place, dirt and grain impedded in his skin, bruises and bumps, this and that, and I see none of that on those photos. All I see is couple small cuts and tiny amount of blood.
Also you claim that there is no marks on Trayvons body at all. Now that is very very interesting, because unlike you think, it proves that Trayvon did not even have a scuffle that night. If you do, there will be mark on your body. Period. If somebody grabs your shirt or jacket, it will leave marks on you. Granted, small and fast healing, but they are there, particulary if you die at the spot. Now if Trayvon had no marks at all, that means only one thing: he did not fight that night. Period. It is that simple.
You can ask from any professional fighter or any amateur fighter, MMA guy, martial art instructor, police self defence expert and they will all tell you this: if you are in a fight, you will get hurt even if you win. Even if you knock the other guy down with one punch, hit or kick, your body will have some marks on it. Thats the way it is in reality, in real life.
Now if Trayvon, like you claim, bashed mr Zimmermans head on concrete, wrestled with him, beat him mercilessly, where are those marks on Trayvon? How come there are no scrathces, nothing on his hands, nothing?
There is only one explanation if there are no marks on Trayvon: he was not in a fight that night. Period,
So mr Zimmerman just shot him, murdered him to be correct. Period. The evidence shows that, if, like you say, there are no marks on Trayvons body.
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@ Sam:
Doug mentions the pic of Zimmerman’s bloody head taken shortly AFTER the shooting? The person who snapped this picture did not want to be identified. I mean, if the police were already there then wouldn’t the crime scene be contaminated? Why would the police allow a civilian to take a picture? Something’s not adding up here.
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@ Doug1111,
Where is your proof that Blacks hate to be disrespected more than Whites?
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Also, could you provide any evidence from your own experiences/a testimonial to that claim?
Thanks,
JT
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@ DarqBeauty:
Nah, moonshine is too classy and high-falutin’ for the likes of he…methinks he chugs home-brewed Absinthe! 😎
Wormwood tends to make one ‘absent’, no? LOL
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first off I’ve had many black gf’s my dad’s current is black and owns a church. yes having had thousands of black employees does give me insight into how they work. duh , I watched them work. I averaged about 60-100 employeed under my direct supervision on my business’ . my dad’s gf talks openly about how the church is used as a tool to control what the black community does about certain issues. having been surrounded by my dad’s black coo-workers in his city job @ a water/sewer dept. I have a lifetime of hearing and seeing how they work.(where white people with qualifications are passed up for hiring promotion to blacks who are not qualified to fill a quota) I even personally know all the supervisors who told me all about how they were forced to do this. it’s no secret knowledge but you have to be in certain positions to see it. so yes honestly I can say with all honesty(not biased I love all people ) that black peole are very lazy uneducated & prone to crime. out of all my childhood friends the black ones are the ones who are mostly in jail or prison. this is not a bias but a reflection of reality. you can’t handle the truth. I wish it were not so because they were some of my best friends that we would always be together all day long after or during school . so if you think I”m racist or biased nothing could be further from the truth. my first black gf I wanted to marry. fact’s are fact’s even I don’t like saying them but they are just that way. so if you think I’m racist or biased, gfyita
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Most of my black freinds didnt end up in jail, and, the one that I know did, recovered incredibly in society.
I can tell you about two black colleagues I knew. One was William Giles, who used to come around our high school and do recruiting speeches to go into the army, he had fought in Viet Nam
He was a tunnel rat, you know what that means, they drop you down in a tunnel with a pistol and flashlight and go ahead to find the enemy. They use guys of small stature to fit into the tunnel.That has to be about the most courage you could ask from a man in war. William was small but he was ten feet tall to me. He took me around to many black clubs with his Viet Nam veteran freinds, I didnt know it at the time, I just knew who William was. You see, they were a singing group, and , William was about the nicest most beautiful human beings to be around you could know. Man, what absolute courage , what absolute composure. I admire William Giles so much.
Another one of my freinds, Roy Houston. Roy was a tremendous athelete, he took state in the 400 race, one of the most grueling of all, and he was a star basketball player, I was on the junior team since i was a year back, so we had to practice with those guys and Roy was phenominal. He was also the guy that introduced me to Coltrane’s A Love Supreme, in the basement of a mutual freind. He also went to Viet Nam, with the Green Berets, and came back with a mettle plate in his head…
Those are justa couple of my black colleagues , and they are people I admire with the highest and most humble admiration for the very real sacrifices they made for my country and just inspiration for me in my everyday life.Many other of my black freinds went on with successful lives.
The black employers in my life have been of the highest integrity and have been inspirations for my life also
I guess my story is differant than yours, Miguel
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I lived in a working-class Black neighborhood and all of my friends growing up were Black. As it stands now from those childhood playmates we have a physician; an attorney; a government agency regional director; an assistant vice president for a major bank; an accountant and one well-paid but non-degreed government worker (a subway train conductor). In case anyone missed it, all are Black, all were from a working-class background, and not one turned out to be lazy, uneducated or in prison.
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don’t have to meeet millions of any social group , all you need is a braod sample which my travels provide me with. hard to believer?? let’s see travelling 8 -11 months out of the year 2-3 shows a day with 20-40k in each show approaching as many people as possible for average of 3-10 seconds a piece . plus having 60-150 different employees every week. sometimes more because I would fire about 9 people every day because they are lazy. doing this from 1992 to 2005 . you tell me .
racist?? no it’s not racist to knotice things about social groups. manipulating ideals?? I told people what they wanted to hear because I know the traits of all social groups and was like a cameleon even down to talking and acting like them. for example speaking french to people in french canada or spanish to cubans and mexicans and identifying with them on many points.
overachiever. yes I am and when I’m not working I’m a slacker that study’s many forms of engineering to further my own exploiits. I don’t tear down any social group I’m happy with my life right where it is. it just happens that blacks happen to be lazy noticing this fact is not tearing them down it’s just stating a fact.
just because someone does not agree with your politicallly correct lies about society and how things really are does not make them a troll. if you would open your eyes you would see that some social groups are just plain ugly and worthless. there are an amazing amount of blacks that are very worthy and contribute to society very much , but sadly these are outweighed by the dead weight of the majority of their social group. I even have known black people that own their own circus, but guess what they only own it and know very little about actually operating it. they treat their help fairly well but rely on other social groups to actually operate it. i
it’s not that we have different experiences , you just have not had as broad of an experience due to you probably being in a fixed location most of your life. I have friends of all creeds and colors and love all of them equally. racism prevents opportunity for personal growth which I crave more than anything. if I were a racist I would not have learned from other creeds how to sell better than anybody else. I also would not have a standing invitation to live in almost every nation on the planet for free in friends homes that I still know today. so please take your hatefull racist attitude elsewhere because I”m not a racist I”m a realist & very pragmatic.
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@ Miguel
First off, you seem pissed out of your mind. Doug likes wine. What’s your beverage of choice?
Second, your claim to not be racist but then post racist statements is a contradiction.
Third, using a black woman as a crutch is laughable.
Fourth, 7 PhD’s?……ok…….
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brothawolf–
I’m offended by most of what’s said to me by blacks far leftists on this forum, though I do have a thick skin. Being offended by true things doesn’t make saying them racist in any reasonable sense of the word, period, end of story.
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Deedee—
Zimmerman’s lawyer O’Mara brought hospital records of his broken nose and lacerated head with him to the courtroom, and provided them to the court.
As well don’t forget that Zimmerman has said through family member proxies that in the struggle his gun became visible, and that that’s when he pulled it out and shot. That’s perfectly plausible and consist with the forensic evidence and eye witness testimony.
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More than likely, the judge, Zimmerman’s father, has contacts within the medical profession to exaggerate the seriousness of his baby boy’s injuries. He has been repeating the same smashed his head into the cement garbage to media source after media source.
These Zimmermans aren’t dumb. They have been getting as scummy as it comes to prevent their clansman from being incarcerated long term like he deserves.
I sincerely hope justice is allowed to happen and Zimmerman gets sent for a life sentence. Trayvon wasnt able to live his life; why should that murderer Zimmerman?
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@doug1111
Could you link where you read abouth the medical reports…I can’t find them D:
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Deedee—
In addition to the forensic evidence, and police reports about a bloodied nose and back of his head, and in addition of Zimmerman’s account given at the scene, back at the police station where he was taken in handcuffs and no doubt mirandized (sounds like an arrest to me), and the next day when he let police take him to the scene of the shooting and walked them through it again, we have two eye witnesses who saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman punching him repeatedly in the face while screaming at the closest one on whose property this occurred, John, for help. Zimmerman’s story to the police was consistent in all important particulars despite their using the usual police procedure of making him repeat it again and again with intervals in between to try to trip him up. He did this all without asking for an attorney. He passed a lie detector test.
As well O’Mara on cross examination getting the prosecution’s chief investigator to admit that they didn’t have any good evidence that Zimmerman started the physical fight was devastating to the prosecution’s case, which is really, really weak.
About the only thing they have to go on aside from playing to the emotions of any black jurors is to try to convince the jury that Zimmerman couldn’t reasonably have feared for his life or great bodily harm. If you keep hitting someone with a broken nose and do it from the “right” angle you can knock the bone into his brain and kill him. I think fearing a concussion on going into a coma due to having your skull repeatedly bashed against the concrete sidewalk qualifies as well. And fearing the guy beating the hell out of you you reasonably feel at least partly due to racial animus has seen your now visible gun (it was in his waistband he said) and is going to shoot you with it is a no brainer.
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@Doug,
we haven’t seen the ballistics report or the m.e. report. so it is you who is doing all the conjecture and wishful thinking.
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vanishingpoint–
The person who took the bloody back of the head photo also says that powder stains on Trayvon’s hoddie were readily visible, according to ABC news.
As well the Sanford police have seen them and decided not to charge Zimmerman, though they did do weeks of investigation before due to Martin’s lawyer Crump and his publicist media spinning black racial hysteria, Florida’s governor kicked the investigation to be done under the direction of a special prosecutor. Who it looks like has a VERY weak case.
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JT–
That’s ridiculous. He was a judge in Virginia. He retired to Florida it seems.
The one that’s scummy in this is the Martin’s civil lawyer super media spinning Crumb, with all his dishonest pictures of Trayvon when he was an angelic looking 12 you provided to the media, but no recent ones, to give the utterly false impression that Trayvon was incapable to beating up and physically dominating 5’8″ 170lb Zimmerman.
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Deedee–
I saw it on a CNN bit about the Arthur bail bond hearing. O’Mara first offered it to the prosecution, then checked himself and said no that wouldn’t be proper at this stage (I think the prosecution lawyer said right because we haven’t begun supplying discovery to you yet), and then offered it to the court.
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@Deedee
Could you link where you read abouth the medical reports…I can’t find them D:
This probably won’t happen, or if so, it will be a last ditch attempt, a weak representation at best. Doug and his ilk are frightened men who’s singular experiences ‘inform’ what they present on here. He, and others like him, are tortured individuals who know that what they convey is not 100% correct, after all, many of them have experienced the ‘Dark Side’ but, they daren’t reflect this on here lest they betray the inner turmoil and conflict within…..
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truthbetold–
Not in the least. Haven’t had a thing to drink. Rarely have when writing here. You’re just desperately looking for any avenue for attack, you have so much animus towards me.
It wasn’t me that said that. I don’t have any Ph.D’s. I have a law degree from a top five law school, though after a few years I moved into high finance in the same area of specialization from the other side of the fence so to speak.
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Above should read….
^^^^^
Let me be clear here – when I say the ‘Dark Side’ I mean their insatiable desire for women that are not ‘White.’. They are curious, lustful – they ‘need, want ‘ a ‘dusky’ maiden’ but they daren’t articulate it cos they are after all ‘race-realists’….!!!!
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Under Florida’s self defense law, the defense will have the right to file an immunity from prosecution motion for a hearing. In that immunity hearing if O’Mara can show by a preponderance of the evidence (50.1%) that Zimmerman was acting in reasonable self defense against the fear of great bodily injury or death, then the judge must throw that case out of court as Zimmerman is immune from having to stand trial with all the attendant costs on the much harder for the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt there was no valid self defense.
If this judge has sufficient balls (given the black rioting pressures etc.) on present evidence, and the Arthur hearing didn’t make it sound like the state has much more, he’ll hold Zimmerman immune from trial. Oh and by the way then Florida owes Zimmerman lost wages, attorney’s and related fees and court costs. Not sure about bail bond fee. Would be logical.
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@Doug
Zimmerman made a slight mishap. He mentioned at the hearing that he though Martin was a few years younger than him. In the 911 tapes he mentioned “late teens” as the age. That was weird.
Zimmerman’s telling of what Martin allegedly said is not clear and inconsistent
There was no mention of Martin being aware of the “exposed” gun but rather that he continued to strike Zimmerman(according to Robert Zimmerman).
If Martin was bashing his head on the concrete then his nose bone was no longer being maneuvered by Martin’s punches.
Zimmerman had the freedom to leave so was not arrested. Yes he was bound but at that time he was not questioned as a “suspect”.
Martin had no reason to feel racial hate towards Zimmerman as he was beating him so that is kind of reaching.
The cross examination did not hurt the case because there is more “show and tell” in the future that can prove otherwise.
Also, why do you assume that the jurors will be Black? I’m almost certain it will most like be slightly mixed and that regardless of the ethnicity of the jurors all of them will have to be convinced that Zimmerman was acting in self defense. It is still not clear, imo.
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Deedee–
He was most definitely questioned as a suspect for manslaughter. That’s how the police reports classified this possible crime (a crime but for valid self defense). It would have been called an arrest in NYC I can assure you and I think most states. He was most definitately Mirandized.
What he wasn’t was immediately or subsquently until well into the special prosecutor takeover, charged. He was released without bail or being charged. When you’re arrested in Florida under it’s self defense laws and charged if there is found to be a valid self defense immunity from trial the state owes you any lost wages, lawyers fees, etc. if it’s so found at an immunity hearing.
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Deedee–
I don’t think he did have the freedom to leave when at the police station until he did in fact leave. He certainly didn’t have the freedom to not go down to the police station with them. That’s what being handcuffed means.
The police don’t handcuff someone they invite to voluntarily go down to the station house to answer questions.
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Deedee–
How do you know he wasn’t doing both in sequence?
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I don’t. Zimmerman stated that after the initial strike and falling onto the ground that Martin started bashing his head on concrete until he eventually shot him. Now that I re-look it seems that Robert Zimmerman and George Zimmerman’s accounts contradict. R. mentions his son being punched in the face as well as some concrete head bashing while he was on the ground. G. only mentions head bashing while on the ground. Interesting.
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Also, Doug you were right. Zimmerman was arrested on the first night.
arrest: The act of being taken into custody by the police.
…the prosecutor consults with the police officer who arrested you. … If the prosecutor decides that there is not enough evidence to prove that you committed the crime, you will be released from jail.
I realize that the site is for NY courts but it would probably be the same in Florida. The police followed all legal proceedings that night.
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Deedee–
God you’re being reasonable. That’s unusual in black white conflict issues on this site. Congrats.
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@ Doug,
That’s uncalled for and rather snotty. Your such a wonderful judge of the “reasonable” in black-white “conflict” issues.
Also…black rioting pressures? Didn’t someone who actually lives there say, right up there, that there was no such thing?
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my post are not racist noting reality is not racist. using as a crutch?? your out of your mind with your racism and it is causing you illusions. yes I have 7 phd’s so what. here is a little fyi
this come from a hard back 2230 page dictionary one of many I own(dictionary’s of many types and sizes) websters new universal unabridged dictionary.. none of my statements fit the definition of a racist so for all you racist who think I am then you need to read a dictionary before you claim that making factual statements is racist.
racism 1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one’s own race is superior and has the right to rule others 2 a police, system of government etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination 3 hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
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Miguel,
Now you’re repeating yourself like a broken record or, for a more modern analogy, a scratched CD. I will not wait my time repeating myself to someone who’s perfectly capable of reading.
Stop telling us that you have black friends and that you love black people and then say something ass-backwards as “I can say with all honesty(not biased I love all people ) that black peole are very lazy uneducated & prone to crime.” If you can’t see how this is a contradiction within a single sentence, you may be the lazy one in understanding common sense.
You see, you can say how you’re not biased or whatever, but at the end of the day, you are. Your comments show that perfectly. Right now, you’re sounding incredibly ignorant as hell, and I got better things to do than tell you why your thinking is messed when you’re old enough to do that your damn self.
You keep talking about facts and whatnot. The fact is that black people are not lazy or criminal prone by some sort of biological or cultural fault. If you would’ve studied history, you would know that black people worked through the bone for their slave masters whether they wanted to not. They had no choice. Before slavery, blacks, or Africans rather, have built cities, empires, and incredible civilizations. After and during slavery, blacks have contributed to science and medicine. Today, blacks are working hard just to make ends meet in this shithole economy. How I do know this? Because I see it, and I too am black.
And lastly, black people are not a people of criminals. Crime is a factor in any society. Black people are not the kings and queens of crime. Black people detest crime in their communities and there are blacks who are doing something about it.
So, stuff that “blacks are lazy and crime prone” nonsense, because you really don’t know us very well. Period.
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Doug,
You said, “I’m offended by most of what’s said to me by blacks far leftists on this forum, though I do have a thick skin. Being offended by true things doesn’t make saying them racist in any reasonable sense of the word, period, end of story.”
You’re still missing the point. This blog is not for you. You came here on your will. When you said all of that “race realism”, people here are offended. Why does their feelings mean little compared to yours especially when you continuously start these arguments? That makes no sense.
How do you what you read and typed are true? What makes that the only thing worthy of being learned? Why must everything else be counted out because it’s not with the program. That is small-minded thinking whether you know it or not.
Clinging on certain ideas and rejecting others because you simply don’t agree is not wise. What you’ve read and said has been said for centuries. It’s not set in stone especially since there are new ideas, ideas that suggest that race is a false concept more political and social than scientific. As proof, you refer to such similar ideas as leftist. So, you could say that in the end race realism is more political and social as well whose ultimate goal is to keep mankind divided where one group has all of the power over other groups.
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Truthbetold,
If Miguel has 7 Ph. D’s, then the world is flat. lol
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@ Brothawolf,
Have you ever heard of “Low Effort Thinking”? People who need to do that subscribe to ideologies that have a set all or nothing point of view where they can dismiss anything that doesn’t fall in line. Racism is considered an example of low effort thinking. Hence, black equals bad, different equals leftist, yada yada. They don’t actually have to think about what they say or do so because they’re parroting ideas that they’ve decided are a universal truth. Anything outside of it can be ignored, they’re never really interested in complex, critical thought. It’s their personal security blanket. If they can dismiss everything with ad hominems or “blacks are bad”, they don’t have to address anything.
Example,
1. Black people peacefully protesting or holding vigils equals “black rioting”. There’s no attempt to consider what they are doing, why they are doing it, or what point of view they have.
2. Black crime rates from Stormfront prove blacks are violent. Hence all young black men are violent, hence if they are shot, it is justified. Any arguments against that point of view are ignored specifically because if you disagree, you must be black or leftist, aka bad/dishonest.
It’s insane troll logic disguised as an oxymoron (race realism).
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@ Brothawolf
Doug isn’t really offended. Otherwise he wouldn’t be here.
@ Ace
Good explanation. Whites projected their own human frailty onto people of colour. Whites murdered so blacks became dangerous murderers. White men violated black women so black men wish to violate white women, and on and on…
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@ Ace
Your comment is an insult to Low Effort Thinkers everywhere. The trolls here mostly practise No Effort Thinking. They pretty much skip past the post and then, like sheep, bleat their talking points over and over.
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Here’s a detailed analysis of the bail bond hearing by a left leaning defense attorney, based upon his reading of CNN’s complete transcript of it. As he notes by calling one of the state’s two lead investigator to testify in a surprise move to the prosecutor, O’Mara was able to turn the hearing into a mini trial as to the strength of the state’s case.
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/4/21/22713/4445
This lawyer concludes as I have that the prosecutor has very little evidence to discredit Zimmerman’s account of what happened. The investigator admits the state has no evidence that Trayvon wasn’t the one to first speak to him as both Zimmerman and Trayvon’s friend DeeDee has said, demanding according to him “You have a problem?” and according to DeeDee “why are you following me?” The investigator admitted the state has no evidence contradicting Zimerman’s claim that it was Trayvon who started the physical fight.
There’s no chance of a jury conviction. I think this judge will throw this out at a hearing to determine if Zimmerman has immunity from trial because he can show by a preponderance of the evidence that he was acting in self defense out of a reasonable fear that he would otherwise seriously risk suffering great bodily harm or death.
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Great points Brothawolf and Ace
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Zimmerman was told not to pursue him,but he still carried on anyway. This led to the death of a young, innocent boy who did not deserve to die.
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Mr. Mixed–
No, the dispatcher after asking if Zimmerman was following Zimmerman said “we don’t need you to do that”. He probably said it as much out of concern for Zimmerman’s safety as anything else. He didn’t know that Trayvon wasn’t armed and that Zimmerman was.
Also it seems from GZ’s recorded call that his objective was to keep Trayvon in sight to he could tell police were he was when they got there, not follow him closely.
As I’ve said before, I find it very implausible that Zimmerman started the physical fight, and the investigator that O’Mara questioned at the bail bond hearing (in a surprise and very effective move) admitted that the state had no evidence that he did, or which contradicts Zimmerman’s statements as to how it began. Zimmerman didn’t sound mad at Trayvon or sure he’d done anything wrong much less to Zimmerman on his 911 call, but rather suspicious of him. You don’t slug people you’re suspicious of. Trayvon on the other hand very plausibly felt “dissed” at being profiled, suspected and followed. It seems far more likely that he started the physical fight. As well even according to Trayvon’s friend (apparently not girlfriend as Crump has lied) DeeDee the verbal confrontation began when Trayvon demanded of Zimmerman “why are you following me” to which she said she heard GZ say “what are you doing around here?”. Zimmerman says he had stopped following Trayvon and was headed back to his truck when Trayvon verbally and then physically confronted him.
The prosecution’s case looks incredibly weak. If they don’t have a lot more evidence no he shouldn’t have been arrested and this case should be thrown out at an immunity hearing due to valid self defense that will occur at some point.
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@ Douglas
Give it a rest.
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Ace and Abagond,
Thank you. That’s what it is exactly. Low and no effort thinking is what these “race realists” prescribe to. I guess thinking critically is too painful for them, literally.
Truthbetold,
I think Doug is really having fun with us like a child with his toys. He’s not really offended, but is enjoying himself more and more. He probably has a huge smile on his face as he reads and nitpicks certain comments.
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I think it is also likely that Zimmerman felt “dissed” that Martin possibly questioned his “authority”. Even George’s father said that he would only be violent if provoked but tried to turn it around and say he would then turn the other cheek. That makes zero sense. Either he turns the other cheek or he is violent when provoked. Either way the Zimmerman clan are being dishonest, period.
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@doug1111
I didn’t need to read past the first paragraph of your rubbish, before I realised that all your writing is excuse after excuse, guess after guess.
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@ Deedee,
Well, didnt’ Zimmerman actually have a violent history, even assaulting a cop? How is it a huge jump between that and being the sort of person that would shoot someone who you felt stepped up to you?
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I would like to know did Trayvon have any mr Zimmermans DNA on him, which he must have since, according our racist trolls here, they were in so terribly violent confrontation.
That would be found easily under Trayvons fingernails since, according to our race realists, he was bashing mr Zimmermans helpless head on the concrete viciously and mercilessly without stopping at all.
That is, unless, Trayvon was wearing magical surgical gloves or such, which he could have been, being ,according our “I am nor a racist I have a black girl friend” trolls, such a dangerous gigantic football player slash gangmember slash thug.
And for those who do not know my writings here, this is not to be taken too seriously.
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And have you noticed how Trayvon turned from a 148lbs mean lean killing machine into a humongus gigantic behemoth football giant in our racist trolls comments and how mr Zimmerman went from out of shape morbidly obese looser into a small and helpless little man at the same time?
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@ Sam,
I’ve noticed how they seem to take Zimmerman from a man in his twenties who was out of shape and then exaggerated it to make him somehow a quivering little man while at the same time trying to argue on how height-weight ratios made Trayvon into some huge football player (apparently none of them have ever played a sport or know how athletics work…).
Also good point on the DNA, I also find it odd how Zimmerman was supposedly “assaulted” yet Trayvon supposedly had none of his blood under his fingernails or on his person. I also find it interesting that he tried to get on top of Trayvon and he supposedly didn’t know he was seriously injured.
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@ Ace
Douglas, in his desperate need for control, has recreated the scene of the crime. With an imagination like that, he should write novels.
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@truth
Grimms fairytales spring to mind…. 😉
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It’s Martin lawyer Crump and his publicist that have put out the lies about Trayvon being 140 lbs with no mention that he’s 5’2″ and looking like a little kid in the pic they kept giving the media, and about Zimmerman being 260 lb with no mention of his height. So yeah when it was learned from the police report that Zimmerman is 5’8″ and they didn’t give his weight, then yeah people skeptical of all the one sided media propaganda coming out of ABC, NBC/MSNBC and CNN did figure Zimmerman had to be obese. A few weeks ago though his black friend said he was about 170lb, and so then those skeptical towards Team Trayvon’s heavily spun story on blogs and so on reflected that right away.
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A black lynch mob has arisen on Twitter now that Zimmerman is out on bail calling for him to be killed:
http://twitchy.com/2012/04/23/twitter-lynch-mob-now-that-george-zimmerman-is-out-on-bail-lets-kill-him/
There’s even a call for the judge to be killed, which has been retweeted many times:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/someone-kill-judge_640598.html
Are Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson going to call for this sort of thing to stop?
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@doug1111
A black lynch mob has arisen on Twitter now that Zimmerman is out on bail calling for him to be killed:
How do you feel about people who have a strong belief about something, stating it in cyberspace. Do you feel upset? Do you think people should feel threatened? Or would it only bother you if you were in the same vicinity of people who ‘resembled’ the aggreived individuals?
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They’re not just expressing strong opinions. Many are saying if they can find Zimmerman they’re gonna kill him. Others are urging other blacks to do so. That’s illegal. I imagine most are just being blowhards but it creates an atmosphere in which nutcases might go through with it.
It’s quite disgusting behavior. If whites were doing that re: some black guy who claimed to have killed a white guy in self defense, the media would be all over it screaming racism and you know it.
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So, do you think other people, particularly Black people should speak out, appeal for calm, wait for justice to be done?
It’s quite disgusting behavior. If whites were doing that re: some black guy who claimed to have killed a white guy in self defense, the media would be all over it screaming racism and you know it.
Tut tut Doug,
For such a smart man I am surprised you resorted to this tactic…
Your ‘concern’ has not gone unnoticed. Your fear is palpable. But, what to do about it – that is the question? Is every BP a potential member of this so called ‘lynch mob?’. Can you trust the commenters on here not to rip White commenters to shred here in cyberspace, lurking and ready to pounce on the most innocent would be commenter?
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Demerera—
Fear? Of what? I’m not afraid for myself. Nor do I at all closely identify with George Zimmerman. I just want to see real justice rather than black emotional mob justice done in this case.
If that means convicting GZ, with strong evidence to support that finding beyond a reasonable doubt, I’m fine with that.
My interest in this case is mostly around the extremely leftist and one sided spin of at least the national MSM on this until recently. They just took lying Martin’s lawyer Crump spin as the story by and large, by far dominant message, in their quest for the “Great White Defandant” (who’s not a white prole) in a case majorly victimizing a black. Never mind that Zimmerman is clearly Hispanic by America’s racial/ethnic social construct rules, as an overlay on actually percentage of biological ancestry.
Crump has been lying with photos, stated weights of both parties, what the evidence shows and so on in order to he hopes have his civil money award day in court. Though Zimmerman appears pretty judgment proof. Well it’s also advertising.
No of course I don’t think every black is a likely participant in a lynch mob against Zimmerman. But I do think there’s a whole lot of blacks that think that’s justified (using guns not rope) and egging on others, and that there’s scant effort by black leaders to damp that down, and also scant vilification of this social media sentiment and egging on in the leftist MSM. In sharp contrast if the racial positions were flipped and whites were doing it.
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@Doug
Fear? Of what? I’m not afraid for myself.
How selfless of you. After all, we dont want to see anymore innocent black people getting hurt do we…
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More black mob “justice” for Trayvon:
http://www2.wkrg.com/news/2012/apr/23/man-beaten-mob-critical-condition-ar-3659891/
Where is Al Sharpton or Maxine Waters denouncing this sort of thing?
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it is coming to light what everybody knew was true from day one of this being a news item. there was not really enough evidence to truly convict this man . that’s why the states attourney chose intitially not to prosecute, and the city decided not to accept the police chiefs resignation. public pressure and mob mentality should never affect the outcome or cause a prosecution to occur.
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Miguel–
Yeah the black major (country supervisor) and police chief had reached a resignation deal but the majority of the city counsel decided it wanted to wait for the results of an independent commission to determine if the police chief actually did anything wrong. Was clearly push back against black pressure.
Also they no doubt took note of the fact that the special prosecutor’s charging affidavit and their performance during the bail bond hearing were incredibly weak. In other words there’s no evidence the the special prosecutor uncovered anything compelling that Sanford police hadn’t found.
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it’s amazing the racism that is being hid because it is black racism , but the non racist part of this is being exploited . self defense is not racism. protecting your neighborhood from what is known to be what a criminal looks like and just happens to be a minority is not racism. following what you think is a criminal and calling the police is not intiating an altercation , it’s watching your neighborhood. carrying a gun is not intent to use it . handguns are like condoms better to have and not need than to need and not have. the revolution is being televised and it’s horribly ugly.
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Finally someone did some real reporting work and dug into lots to details about Zimmerman growing up and his family and him as a young adult. Plus there’s also lots of details about the large crime wave the neighborhood lived in was experiencing over the last year and who was doing the crime, when someone was seen, which was most of the time. Let me give you a hint. It wasn’t whites or Hispanics.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/25/us-usa-florida-shooting-zimmerman-idUSBRE83O18H20120425
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@ Dougie
More strawman, eh?
You’re grasping now…
Have some more wine.
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Truthbetold–
God you don’t even know what a strawman is. Pathetic.
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Hey Doug, hows the golf swing? Now that is a straw man.
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Herneith–
Nope you apparently don’t know what it means either.
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Oh, and it turns out Zimmerman is actually BLACK. Yep by the American rules of hypodescent, insisted on almost entirely by blacks these days, at least in extreme cases. Like Tiger Woods or Haley Barry’s son by her white ex husband.
According to that detailed, real reporting for once, Reuter’s article, Zimmerman’s maternal great grandfather was an Afro-Peruvian.
Something tells me that blacks aren’t going to acknowledge him as one of their own in this matter however.
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What the golf swing?
Doug, you need to read more gossip magazines so you can get these celebrities’ names and marital situations right. ‘Haley Barry’ was not married to her child’s father, and it is a daughter not a son. May I suggest you read the National Inquirer, the Star or the Globe? There is a wealth of knowledge in those rags. Even the CIA uses them to send messages and get information from secret agents. Also, this is how the aliens communicate with the lowly humans, yes through gossip magazines. How’s the golf swing ol chum?
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@ Doug
Your obession with Zimmerman’s innocence is getting unhealthy, even for you. Does it make you tingle to imagine a young black child losing his life to a madman’s bullet?
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truthbetold
I am curious to learn whether people who make such statements really mean them, or if they’re just intentionally being facetious.
Surely you must accept the very real possibility that the “child” was delivering the “madman” a significant beating at the time of the shooting.
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There has been an enormous black race hustling effort to railroad George Zimmerman and without good cause. Team Trayvon’s Crump has played a very dishonest game with the pictures of Trayvon when he was an angelic and harmless looking 12 yo or so, which is all he gave the press for weeks, lies about Trayvon’s and Zimmerman’s weight, sealing of Trayvon’s school records as much as he could, taking down his Facebook and then Twitter so people couldn’t any longer look into the real Trayvon (though some conservative bloggers already had), and the media has played along or given him a pass over it, and that pisses me off.
There has been enormously one sided “great white defendant” (even though Zimmerman isn’t white and has a few drops of black in him) left leaning media way biased and complicit in that black race hustling evidence until quite recently, when the tide has begun to turn.
It’s all emotions on one side, all careful gathering and piecing together of the facts on the other side, the one I’m so far on. As I said near the beginning of this thread if there is strong evidence that Zimmerman started the physical fight, I’ll seriously re-examine this whole thing. Then I would have thought he should be arrested back then, and would have thought he should probably lose at the immunity hearing. But I’ve seen all the evidence in the other direction.
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There is no way that Zimmerman did anything in self-defense. The lead homicide investigator ruled against a self-defense excuse. What the lead investigator argued for was a manslaughter charge. If i were on the case, I would deliver murder one. Zimmerman was nowhere in the right to have left the car. He needed to let the police do the police work instead of engaging the youth after stalking him in his vehicle.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-investigator-wanted-charge-george-zimmerman-manslaughter/story?id=16011674
The stand your ground law doesn’t count when you engage the victim. There is no self-defense in stalking him and initiating contact. He did not use proportional self-defense. You see the mug shot. No facial cotusions/nose breaks. You see the one shot taken three minutes after the murder of Trayvon. You see some dried blood and very superficial posterior scratches.
This Zimmerman was in the wrong 100%. He should be taking the fall 100%. The only ones who don’t see that are the race realists goons.
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@Randy
Whatever your stance on who was doing what to whom, the fact remains, a young person lost their life needlesly and, at the hands of someone who at that particular time, in that particular place had NO jurisdiction to approach and certainly not to apprehend Travyon. I repeat – he had NO NEED to approach Trayvon. He made that choice and now he has to deal with the consequences of his actions.
You are not thinking laterally at all, even in support of your ‘Hermano’ Zimmerman. I suspect we are starting to see some emotive behaviour on your part Randy. Even if he was not held to account for what he had done in the eyes of the law, he would always have this hanging over his head.
I am sure you will try to justify this in your head,and will go on to continue to dismiss commentary on here that displays sorrow at the loss of a young life in these circumstances, but it is futile.
Any person in employment whether on a voluntary basis or paid employment has to face the consequences of their actions if their error in judgment leads to the Law being involved. You and I both know this. In this day and age it is a rare organisation who will go the distance to shield said employee, particularly if they were told categorically NOT to do something. Somebody’s gotta take the rap and it aint gonna be ‘the law’ in this instance and neither should it be in terms of Zimmermans ill thought out actions.
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@truthbetold.
the same thing could be said for you defending martin. however more evidence is coming to light everyday zimmerman was just protecting his neighborhood against what has been witnessed by people in a vantage point to know who is doing what & when. professional roofers who can’t help but see it was black youths in hoodies that were & probably still are ravashing that neighborhood with crime. you’ve got to conform to the norms of society or be labeled and treated as an outsidere. if you are in a gated community don’t walk around looking suspicious in a hoody with gold teeth. this creates a red flag in peoples minds. if everybody else is wearing jeans & a t-shirt then to be accepted and not branded as an outsider worthy of scrutiny.
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Demerera,
Zimmerman isn’t my ‘Hermano’ any more than another stranger.
Demerera:
I would agree with both statements, but just clarify that a person does not require a “jurisdiction” to approach a stranger in public. It’s not an inherently unlawful act.
Demerera:
I think it’s absolutely a tragic situation which is going to haunt both families and their relations for a long time.
However, I’d argue that truthbetold’s comment (and those of many others) goes well beyond “sorry for loss at a young life”, using terms such as “child” and “madman” which clearly implies a surety about the event which the evidence does not currently support.
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@Randy
but just clarify that a person does not require a “jurisdiction” to approach a stranger in public. It’s not an inherently unlawful act.
Whilst in general it may not be deemed an ‘unlawful act’, Zimmerman chose to flout the law and approach Trayvon despite being told not to.
…..using terms such as…..madman” which clearly implies a surety about the event which the evidence does not currently support.
Perhaps Randy, people find it difficult to cope with the fact that a sane person would go armed to apprehend a young person. It is a difficult thing to digest you know, particularly if you are a parent or if you have siblings/relations of a similar age. Maybe this is a word used as a kind of coping mechanism to rationalise the act of one human being killing another.
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JT—
First he had no right to rule on anything.
Second the Sanford police department have said that that is untrue.
Third it was the prosecutor who said there wasn’t enough evidence to disprove Zimmerman’s self defense claim and charge him.
Fourth the special prosecutor both in her affidavit and at the bail bond hearing produced no additional evidence on the prosecution’s side or contradicting the evidence on the defense side.
He wasn’t stalking him he was following him at a distance, trying to keep him within eyesight so he could tell the police who were coming where Trayvon was, to question him. He also wasn’t the one to engage. Even Crump’s “star” ear witness DeeDee says that she her Trayvon on his cell phone confront Zimmerman by demanding “why are you following me” to which she says GZ responded “what are you doing around here?”
You aren’t required to use “proportional” or just the same sort of self defense when you have a reasonable belief that you are in imminent danger of losing your life or suffering great bodily harm, or a violent felony. You’re then allowed to use potentially deadly force. Besides have your head bashed repeatedly against a cement sidewalk even once can kill you if done hard enough. Having it happen a number of times which Is what happened and what his back of the head injuries are consistent with definitely can, or can put you in a coma or give you a concussion, both of which are great bodily harm. Smashing the head against something hard as rock if blunt doesn’t necessarily cause enormous exterior wounds, though those two were two to three inches long. It can cause internal brain injury and bleeding including very serious brain injury. Broken noses often aren’t visible as such if they were straight on rather than sideways blows.
Zimmerman is going to be found immune from prosecution or civil suit under Florida law due to a valid exercise of self defense, the evidence out there indicates. Only reason he won’t be would be due to the judge buckling under black political pressure and threats against his life, already for just letting GZ out on bail.
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I am sure that Zimmerman felt dissed when Trayvon defended himself by asking why Zimmerman was stalking him. As an adult he should know better than to stalk when armed with a deadly weapon and then aggressively confront a scared adolescent. He had no reason to be coming out of the vehicle with a loaded pistol. He had no reason to shoot (as shown by the lack of injury on Zimmermans person). The lead homicide investigator, not the narcotics investigator that the Sanford white trash PD originally summoned to the scene, found no cause for self-defense. He specializes in crime scene investigation. Then you have the prosector who specializes in local politics; something Zimmerman’s father was very much a part of and has shown repeatedly an affinity for in his slandering of Trayvon with lies about his son’s head being “bashed in.” White neighbour witnesses have every reason to support Zimmerman’s rendition of things while Trayvon is not alive to tell his story. Something the race realists don’t care about. They just want to be able to maintain their rights to shoot Black men and adolescents at will because they feel threatened.
Zimmerman felt dissed and he took aim. Trayvon was just a target to this man and his anti-Black bias. Sickening.
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I would not be surprised for a second if those little scratches on Zimmerman’s head weren’t self-induced. He knows what his pappy has taught him – if you are white and you have done a crime … blame a Black person.
Trayvon screams for help on the 911 recording and somehow Zimmerman is the victim in this whole story. Race realists are a bizarre and twisted bunch. I would refer you to my friend Herneith’s blog where she documents a day in their lives. It is revelatory!
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@ Randolph
Unless I jest, I mean every word I write, hence my screen name.
Doug and possibly yourself are relishing the death of this youngster.
In both your minds, I can almost hear it…
” One down…40 million to go.”
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JT–
Sickeningly evidence blind and fact free black emotional assertion. And no I don’t believe you aren’t black. Well maybe truly rabid left.
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Sorry – I am white. Not that that should factor into the truth of Trayvon’s murder. His death and the facts surrounding it speak for themselves. It is you and the other race realists that can try and twist those facts to further your anti-Black/pro-2nd amendment POV.
I am done arguing with you about this by the way. So you can keep referencing your conservative websites and keep peddling the same pro-George Zimmerman information. I am not attending to it.
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Demerera
I can understand the desire for coping mechanisms, but allow me to explain why I think that this type of “coping” is actually quite loathsome.
First, let’s consider what is meant by the term “justice”. Google defines the term as: “The quality of being fair and reasonable.” When contemplating an incident such as this, how might we envision “justice”?
I’d offer that justice would be manifested by ensuring that all parties were impartially treated according to their deeds. There are a range of possibilities in this case, from Zimmerman ruthlessly assaulting Martin then shooting him at the slightest provocation to Zimmerman lawfully defending himself upon being severely beaten.
Since the lack of available evidence prevents us from knowing the sequence of events to any reasonable degree, any determination of guilt, especially when accompanied by an outpouring of retributive emotion, is by definition a deviation from justice, or in other words, it’s a manifestation of injustice.
When you really consider the implications of beliefs like truthbetold’s (and perhaps millions of others), you cannot but realize that what is being put forth is emotionally-driven injustice.
Anyone who claims to care about justice should feel nothing but antipathy towards such instances of injustice, and should oppose it where found.
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Randy–
There is a good deal of available evidence and it points to Zimmerman’s self defense being valid. Evidence for the prosecution is thin as hell.
Look for a determination of a Florida immunity hearing before the judge only, on the basis of Zimmerman’s attorney showing by a preponderance of the evidence, that he acted in self defense having a reasonable fear of suffering death or great bodily injury or a violent felony, that GZ is immune from prosecution, or civil trial, and as well gets his legal costs and loss of employment income reimbursed by the state of Florida.
It would only be political pressures or fear of the judge’s life on presently available evidence that would lead to any other conclusion.
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With as little evidence as is available how can anyone say what points to self -defense and what does not. If you listen to the 911 tapes….Zimmerman states a few things that he later contradicts. For one he stated or apologized the Martin’s parents stating he thought Martin was a little bit younger than him. Ok I would say a little bit would be 25/26. In the 911 tapes he states that Martin looks in his late teens. While it is a small contradiction it is one none the less that makes you wonder how much truth is he telling about his story. Another thing I found odd was when the operator told Zimmerman to meet the officers at the mailbox he agreed to it at first and then changed his mind and told the operator to have them call him and he will tell them where he is. That signals to me he was going to attempt to handle it on his own.
Zimmerman’s injuries are the result of someone else acting in self defense.
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I THOROUGHLY support Florida’s “stand your ground” criminal defense law and the almost majority of other states that have mostly copied it.
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it’s not self defense to attack someone when you are involved in illegal activity’s such as scoping peoples houses for burglary. talking to someone does not mean your not standing your ground.
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Yeah blacks know its bad for black sweethearts etc. who are often black criminals.
Tough. Good.
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Too bad Zimmerman’s case does not fit into the “stand your ground” law. I am a gun owner so I understand how people feel in regards to wanting to protect themselves, but being a gun owner you have to act responsibly. Once you take someone’s life you can not give it back. I would hate for it to become a point where it is illegal to have guns simply because somebody wants to go all gun smoke on people.
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doug stand your ground should not even have to be a law, it’s self defense pure and simple nobody should have to show themselves a coward to the thugs that would see you as easy prey in the future. however the assailant does nto have that right they do have the right to back down with honor and stay alive if they just apologize . following somone percieved as a criminal is not a crime nor is it engaging them , even asking them what they are doing around there is no reason for anybody to put their hands on anybody.
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doug1111,
The legal analysis I’ve heard also suggests a likely acquittal based upon the limited evidence contained in the charging affidavit.
My point to Demerera was more about the philosophical and moral implications arising from ungrounded assumptions about the proximate causes of the shooting and assignment of culpability.
Regardless of how the legal case resolves, civil society has ultimately been damaged by the non-rational hue and cry which has arisen.
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@ Doug
Of course you support that law.
You would…it allows you to act on your most secret desires. You know…like the night you revealed your drunken wishes.
It’s ok Douglas.
We know who you are.
And deep down so do you.
@ Randy
What non rational hue would that be?
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FYI
I live in Alabama, you know, the place where that happened. Your facts are off. There was not 20 youths. They were adults. Matt Owens made some racist comments to a group of youth who were outside playing basketball. They went home and told their parents and their parent went after him. True enough they jumped him and I don’t condone violence in anyway. They should have just called the police and reported that he was harassing their kids. Also, it was only one person that said something about Trayvon; one person out of a group of twenty and all of a sudden it was a Trayvon honor beating. The people who really want justice for Trayvon are against these kinds of violent actions because it is the belief that POCs are dangerous and violent that lead to Trayvon being profiled in the first place. Get your facts straight. Everybody here is upset that this happened. Everybody. Amazing that his sister witnessed the event and overhead this one mysterious person say something about Trayvon but couldn’t even provide descriptions of any of the assailants. Sad business all around.
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Sharina–
Self defense against feeling dissed for being profiled, suspect and followed at a distance so as to be kept in sight to point out to police doesn’t cut it as an excuse for aggravated felony assault and battery in Florida or anywhere else in American.
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harrasing someone ?? maybe he was trying to sleep and they did not care?? pocs most certainly (in this case assumed to be a crack dealer most likely) do create violence. the people who are the customers for most drugs are violent and rob people or their homes for thousands of dollars a day in habits. there is no justification for those people to have beat that man up for “harrasing ” their kids nor is there a reason for a criminal charge. harrasement is a civil affair not a criminal.
if & when zimmerman is found innocent, media is going to have to recieve some kind of penalty for ruining a man’s reputation before he even went to trial. if he is found guilty manslaughter is the worst thing that the letter of the law can provide. Anything worse will only come from martins fathers masonic ties.
still we are not hearing anything about the felonious new black panther party’s bounty on a so far innocent man’s life.(remember the word’s innocent untill proven guilty?) it is better that 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person ever put in an electric chair. people also have a propensity to change and do good, this is why we have a system for rehabilitation of people so they can come out better than they came into the system.
it’s amazing that hate crimes are only being prosecuted for one side. hate crimes laws have got to got they are against the constitution , the 14th amendment states we are to have equal protection under the law, assault & murder are not crimes of love, all crime is a hate crime. we are not supposed to have protected classes of people.
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doug could not put that any better. profiling exist for a reason it works. the fbi caught their man the first time it was ever used. if your looking for a a racist scumbag then someone with a shaved head is probably the first person to look for. same thing if your looking for a crack dealer , a black male about 17-25 years of age. etc….
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Cleonette said:
Correct me if I am wrong but this whole Revenge for Trayvon trope is only being reported by whites – white eyewitnesses, white commenters here, etc.
Can someone point me to a black blog, public figure or organization that is calling for violence against white people in revenge for Trayvon? I want it from the horse’s mouth, not through the usual paranoid white hearsay.
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@ Aba
You’ll not find such a blog, figure, etc because it doesn’t exist.
This is the Phantom Black Assailant syndrome all over again.
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@Randy
When you really consider the implications of beliefs like truthbetold’s (and perhaps millions of others), you cannot but realize that what is being put forth is emotionally-driven injustice.
Is there really the intent to put ‘injustice’ forward? You yourself have stated that ….There are a range of possibilities in this case, from Zimmerman ruthlessly assaulting Martin then shooting him at the slightest provocation to Zimmerman lawfully defending himself upon being severely beaten…..
Everyone has their own comprehension of the events that have happened and they dont necessarily tally with the opinions of others.
Anyone who claims to care about justice should feel nothing but antipathy towards such instances of injustice, and should oppose it where found.
I think Randy, you are seeing the examples of antipathy in some of the comments on here. Whilst the idea of ’emotion’ in such situations may seem alien to you the fact remains – the life of a young person has been needlessley snatched away in the prime of his youth.
It is a rare person who cant ‘feel’ things and this in turn will inform their thinking/behaviour/attitudes/responses towards situations – after all, if you cant feel what’s the point!
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@Doug well it appears ignorance is alive and well. You speculate on how Martin felt or what he was thinking based on simple and pure ignorance. You have no idea what Martin was thinking or even what Zimmerman was thinking for that matter.
1. This is the statue of Florida law. Read this part carefully as it pertains greatly to Zimmerman’s Self Defense claim:
776.012 Use of force in defense of person.–A person is justified in the use of force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against such other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, the person is justified in the use of deadly force only if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony.
History.–s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 1188, ch. 97-102.
776.031 Use of force in defense of others.–A person is justified in the use of force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to prevent or terminate such other’s trespass on, or other tortious or criminal interference with, either real property other than a dwelling or personal property, lawfully in his or her possession or in the possession of another who is a member of his or her immediate family or household or of a person whose property he or she has a legal duty to protect. However, the person is justified in the use of deadly force only if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony.
History.–s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 1189, ch. 97-102.
776.041 Use of force by aggressor.–The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.
While you ponder that law I am going to bring up some other points.
2. Do you know how it came about that Zimmerman was appointed his position as a neighborhood watch person? Well because of his efforts he lead to the arrest of a suspected criminal in their neighborhood. This person was not only arrested but convicted, so it made Zimmerman the obvious choice to help protect their streets. We can conclude from reports and the 911 call that as of late there had been a lot of break-ins that resulted in no arrest. This made Zimmerman frustrated as he stated on the 911 tapes that “These assholes always get away.” This reaction is reasonable as I would be too if I put hard work and effort into something and got little or no results. Now Zimmerman stated Martin was wearing sweat pants and a hoodie (I am not calling anyone stupid but that is not Thug wear). I wear Hoodies and Sweat pants to the gym and I can tell you I am not the only one (This is common wear to athletes). Now it was discussed that Zimmerman would wait for officers at the mailboxes, which initially Zimmerman agreed to and in an instant changed his mind and asked if Officers could call him instead and he would let them know where he was. This tells me that Zimmerman had no plans of being at the mailbox but plans on confronting Martin. In his frustrated state he may have believed that he could detain Martin until the cops arrived. Thus my belief in him taking a gun. Now I am not Law wiz but if I am not mistaken if that was something Zimmerman did then based on law it was illegal for him to detain Martin. “Unlawful detention involves keeping a person captive despite having no legal basis for doing so. People who are unlawfully detained can normally press charges against those that detain them.”
Now once you ponder this we can go on to discuss it further.
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@ Doug…
76.041 Use of force by aggressor.–The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or.
This can be interpreted many ways considering that Zimmerman could have been arrest for simply detaining Martin without any legal cause to do so. He could have been seen as in the process of committing a crime by detaining Martin.
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
Zimmerman provoked the use of force against himself when he choose to follow and possibly detain Martin. I personally believe he tried to detain him simply because of his unwillingness to wait for the police to get to the mailbox, but as a reasonable person if someone was following me and I did not know them I would attack as well.
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant;
Now this is something Zimmerman could possibly claim that he had no way of escape, but he would actually need to prove what means he took to escape the danger.
or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.
Now this is something he can use, but the big kicker to the case is Martin’s Autopsy. This would have to show signs of a fight. Granted it could be that Zimmerman never landed a punch or Martin Never landed a punch, but considering what Zimmerman is claiming (life and death situation and all) it will require some type sign that Martin was indeed fighting.
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@ Sharina
My dear, no matter how hard you try to logically explain to Douglas the flaws of his supposition, he will refute any and all evidence for one simple reason:
Doug is a racist and all blacks are deserving of death.
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@truthbetold…That is what is sad though. I mean so many racist get on these boards and instead of using any ounce of common sense or trying to consider the reasonable person rule, they just dismiss any and everything that does not fit into his bubble.
That sad because I know for a fact if I had shot his son then the first thing they would do would be put me under the jail and people like doug would be screaming for it.
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truthbetold–
Of course all blacks are not deserving of death. I don’t think Trayvon was deserving of death. I’m quite sure Zimmerman didn’t want him to die. He just wanted him to stop what could turn out to be a beating that would kill him, as even a single hard bashing of the head on concrete can do much less repeated ones, put him in a coma or give him a severe concussion, the last two of which are most definitely great bodily harm.
And no I’m not a racist though I am a race realist.
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Sarina–
The way you don’t distinguish between parts of Florida statue you are presumably quoting and your commentary makes it hard to read.
There is no evidence whatsoever that Zimmerman was detaining Martin in any way. Further the Reuters article I linked not far above (which involved a good deal of good ole fashioned reporter shoe leather, in interviewing his neighbors, etc.) says he’d never done that before with any of the other suspicious looking characters he’d phone into police.
Further it can’t be interpreted in the way you’re doing. Detaining someone is nowhere close to being a forcible felony. That portion of that statute is completely inapplicable.
If Zimmerman started the fight though, then the stand your ground part of Florida’s self defense statute isn’t applicable, though since eyewitness John’s statement to police and no doubt future testimony in court corroborates that Trayvon had Zimmerman pinned to the ground on his back (while continuing to beat him repeatedly in the face and smash his head against the concrete as he screamed directly to John for help), Zimmerman had no option to flee.
The lead investigator for the prosecution admitted to the court on the stand during questioning from O’Mara that the prosecution has no evidence as to who started the fight or to rebut Zimmerman’s claim, which I have argued his highly plausible for reasons I’ve given, that Trayvon did.
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Sarina–
I’ve followed the available evidence, all of it closely, as have a lot of conservative bloggers. I’ve applied all sorts of common sense to it as have most of them, as well as basic legal knowledge.
The people who’ve been acting in a racist way on this and many other threads around here have been may of the black and far leftist commenters. Not you so far though.
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Yet as far as Zimmerman has mentioned he 1) never tried to stop the bleeding, 2) never tried to resuscitate Martin, 3) never called the cops immediately after shooting Martin (although he possibly told witnesses to call the cops), 4) didn’t call for help after the gunshot to indicate that Marin was dying. I don’t feel anyone here believes that Zimmerman seeked out Martin to kill him. Zimmerman just disregarded Martin’s life when he made no attempt to keep Martin alive.
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Sarina–
Following Trayvon at a distance which is all we know he did was not illegal and was not legally provoking Trayvon’s assault and battery against him. Even following him more closely would have.
As well Zimmerman has claimed through his brother and father that he was walking back to his car when Trayvon came up to him from behind and began talking to him in a loud voice, then then hit him. DeeDee says she heard on Trayvon’s cell phone that Trayvon demanded of Zimmeman “why are you following me?” to which she says GZ responded “what are you doing around here?” and then Trayvon abruptly hung up the phone. Zimmerman claims Trayvon demanded “you got a problem?” to which he said no and then Trayvon said as GZ was pulling out his phone “you do now” and sucker punched him, knocking him to the ground and breaking his nose. The the savage beating in which he did in fact fear his death or great bodily harm from his head against bashed against the concrete.
He also couldn’t escape. John’s eyewitness testimony corroborates that.
Besides the stand your ground parts of the statute are available, as I pointed out in a comment above in moderation.
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How is this poor horse still alive??
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@ Someguy
Because Douglas won’t give it a respectful burial.
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Sarina–
Two long comments to you addressing you legal points are in moderation.
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Truthbetold–
The case is very much alive, new evidence comes in almost daily like the very long and deep reporting Reuters story about Zimmerman from childhood on, and the recent history of burglaries and attempted burglaries in GZ’s neighborhood and what his neighbors thought of him (very positive). It’s the most recent post Abagond’s got on the Trayvon Martin-George Zimmerman case.
Yes Zimmerman’s been arrested but the same issues apply to whether he will be ruled immune from criminal trial or civil lawsuit at an upcoming, we don’t know when yet, immunity hearing under Florida law. If O’Mara can show by a preponderance of the evidence that Zimmerman was acting in self defense due to a reasonable belief that he he would suffer great bodily harm, a violent felony or death, then the judge will grant him such immunity (if he has the balls). This judge may.
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Killing Trayvon was the most lucrative move that Zimmerman has ever made.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/27/justice/florida-zimmerman-money/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
Frightening about the state of white society.
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deedee–
Nobody saw Zimmerman in the seconds after the shooting. John who saw most of the fight but not how it began was on the phone with 911 when the shot was fired.
Maybe Zimmerman took Trayvon’s pulse. Maybe Zimmerman inadvertently shot Trayvon in the heart.
If you haven’t read the Reuters story I linked above you really should. There are plenty of examples of Zimmerman’s caring about black people. He grew up with a couple of black kids being baby sat in his house much of the time by his grandmother (who was part black due to her father having been an Afro-Peruvian). He often rode the bus to school with them. He mentored a couple of at risk black kids. He had a close black friend he started a business with (it failed), and who in the early days of Zimmerman’s getting his story out was one of the people doing so for him. He sought justice for a black homeless man who was assaulted by a cop’s son.
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“followed at a distance so as to be kept in sight to point out to police doesn’t cut it as an excuse for aggravated felony assault and battery”
What kind of truth is this? Martin realised a stranger was following him, when , on the phone with his girl, he came up to confront his stalker, and, Zimmerman never identified that he is neighborhood atch, self appointed. What is so hard about understanding that Martin felt threatened by being stalked by someon who never identified himself. That is the crux of everything as far as Im concerned
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Doug, what type of law did you study before your nervous breakdown? I don’t recall.
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JT—
That’s ludicrous and the last part is also an offensive and clueless statement. On a net basis that’s absurd.
Zimmerman hasn’t been able to work since the shooting. He’s received many, many death threats from blacks due to the frenzy that Team Trayvon and black race mongerers like Al Sharpton with a complicit leftist media have stirred up and so had to go into hiding. He’s had to be back in hiding again and in fact will have to change locations from time to time according to O’Mara to have hope of safety. Death threats are very numerous on twitter, and even the judge has gotten them merely for releasing GZ on bail.
Zimmerman’s got to pay rent on his place in Florida and rent somewhere else. Moving around from time to time is expensive. O’Mara has been doing this pro bono so far but if there’s money beyond Zimmerman’s needs to support himself and his wife during the pendency of the is prosecution, he will probably want to be paid some, and at least expenses. GZ should hire a private investigator to for example find recordings of Trayvon’s voice to help put to rest who was doing the screaming heard on 911 tapes, though John’s eyewitness testimony ought to do that.
People are donating so that Zimmerman can get a fair legal hearing and if it comes to that trial, and no feel forced by money into a plea bargain when the evidence if viewed dispassionately and not from the complete horseshiite narrative that Crump was and still is putting out, strong supports valid exercise of self defense under Florida law. It’s a legal defense fund. It’s nowhere near enough actually.
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@ JT
don’t think others aren’t wondering how they too can cash in…
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Someguy said:
“Doug, what type of law did you study before your nervous breakdown? I don’t recall.”
LOL!!!! I needed that!
LMFAO!!!
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My personal guess is corporate law. So, which was it Douglas? Satisfy our curiosity.
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I donated to the zimmrman fund cuz I want to see that black man get a fair trial now that his own people have turned on him
http://globalgrind.com/news/george-zimmerman-black-roots-trayvon-martin-sanford-florida
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@ Doug111,
I’m starting to really get the impression that certain people truly believe that Zimmerman is THE victim here. That’s ridiculous.
Also…are you really claiming that if he drags out enough convenient “black friends” or shows how much he loves “the blacks” he’s supposed to get credit for that? What about all the times he followed black people, or said racist things? What about his assault and felony record? He isn’t the victim here, and he’s not some martyr, so we don’t really need to start portraying him as one.
@ DuckDuckGoofs,
“I donated to the zimmrman fund cuz I want to see that black man get a fair trial now that his own people have turned on him
http://globalgrind.com/news/george-zimmerman-black-roots-trayvon-martin-sanford-florida”
Wow. “Own people”? I hope your kidding. Convenient how these “black roots” come out of the woodwork now that he’s in trouble for shooting a black kid. I suppose all black people are supposed to recognize him as their own, and embrace and defend him.
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B.R.
Legal truth.
Whether Trayvon felt threatened by Zimmerman or not he had no right to commit assault and battery by hitting him first and then continuing to severely beat him after he had him pinned down on the ground on top of him. That’s Florida law and the law all over the US.
As well I don’t think Trayvon did feel threatened by Zimmerman, or if he did, only did at the beginning, before Zimmerman got out of his truck and TM could see that GZ was much shorter than he was and not a big guy at all.
Zimmerman wasn’t self appointed, his neighbors wanted him to be on the neighborhood watch, and then appointed him captain of it. Read the long and excellent in it’s true digging for the facts article at Reuters that I linked a bit above.
He had no obligation to tell Trayvon he was on the neighborhood watch. According to Zimmerman’s account (through his father and brother) it seems he didn’t have the opportunity. According to GZ he was on his way back to his truck when TM approached him. The exchange was short before Trayvon sucker punched GZ according to him. It seems GZ was trying to avoid rather than provoke conflict. He might well have thought that telling TM that he was a quasi authority figure but not really who suspected Trayvon would piss him off that much more.
I have definitely though about this as to whether it’s equally plausible that Zimmerman started the physical fight, but I just don’t see it.
If you’re gonna be remotely honest about it you know that young black males very often have a very low threshold about feeling “dissed” esp. by non-blacks, and that that often makes them fighting mad, especially when they’re much taller and they think stronger than the Hispanic or white dissing them. In contrast Zimmerman had never even verbally confronted a suspicious looking person he’d called into police, kept his eyes on and followed before according to the Reuters piece.
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“I suppose all black people are supposed to recognize him as their own, and embrace and defend him.”
Yeah, just like blacks did with OJ. If his head is split, you must acquit!
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@ Doug…Do you realize the downfall of your supposed race realism?
I myself am not saying that he meant to harm Martin, but I do believe he went with a gun with the intent of detaining Martin until the police arrived. If he had no intent of that then the gun could have stayed in the car and hell he could have stayed in the car. If you are a realist then you realize this as well. Zimmerman made a bad choice, which cost someone their life and as a result he is not a victim. You don’t get to claim victim just because something goes bad in your life.
Now aside from Zimmerman’s 911 tapes, let’s consider the 911 tapes of those that called in. Martin’s body was found in the grass…….Grass ….Sidewalk. I thought those were two different things. Secondly, while no one knows how the fight began those that saw pieces clearly claim the fight was on the grass. Based on your logic these witnesses are either liars or Zimmerman is guilty of evidence tampering (it is beyond me why he would move the body to the grass, but hey this case is strange).
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@duckduckgoofs…He can be black, Chinese, purple, or pink; If he committed a crime then he needs to go to jail. If you weren’t so obviously stupid I would continue but what would be the point.
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@ Doug what does Zimmerman love for blacks and black friends have to do with anything in this case. He committed a crime. Him loving blacks does not excuse that.
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Ace—
Zimmerman WAS the first victim the preponderance of the evidence out there shows. Trayvon certain suffered far greater harm as it turned out, but he brought that upon himself. Zimmerman didn’t pull his gun and shoot Trayvon the second he was on the ground after being punched by Trayvon. He shot after his head had been repeatedly smashed against the concrete sidewalk, and after Trayvon continued to punch him in the face repeatedly while Zimmerman was on his back screaming help directly at eyewitness John. We know that not just from what Zimmerman told police in three separate long interrogations all without his asking for a lawyer, but also from the only eyewitness that saw much, John, on whose property the fight took place. It’s also corroborated by the crime scene physical evidence and presumably by the coroner’s report, since the Sanford police after reporting the evidence they had from time to time to the county prosecutor’s office were told they didn’t have enough contrary evidence to Zimmerman’s self defense claims to arrest and charge him. Corey hasn’t indicated any additional evidence, just the results of black and leftist political pressure.
Zimmerman is also the victim of an incredibly biased media campaign by Team Trayvon’s civil payday lawyer Crump’s spinning of the media and professional black racial hate and victimization mongers Al Sharpton and others. There was and remains a real effort to railroad Zimmerman by veiled (on the part of the leaders like Sharpton) and open on the part of the black twitter and other mobs, threats of rioting if they don’t get what they want.
I want actual impartial justice, or as close to that as possible.
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Which Blacks were those exactly? I remember that trial vividly and no one I knew thought OJ was innocent, Black or White.
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@ DuckDuckgoofs,
OJ has nothing to do with this case, and frankly has no reason to be brought up. Blacks are not a monolith. Also, take more issue with the high number of white people who support ZImmerman. Then you’d have a comparison.
Or maybe just quit while your behind.
@ Sharina,
I’ll never understand why there’s this push to make Zimmerman out to be some martyr of racism, or some poor victim of this situation. The only victim is dead, and probably would not be believed even if he’d survived.
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So, in other words, just like any dirtbag lawyer, he was doing his job. Don’t hate the player, hate the game.
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IMO, Trayvon probably did feel threatened & Zimmerman did act stupidly by continueing to follow him, even if to simply keep an eye on his due to past crimes in the neighborhood & not knowing him.
That said, objectivity is a hallmark of justice. Just because Trayvon had some gold-teeth pics, wore a hoodie or anything, doesn’t make him bad, and Zimmerman being stupid doesn’t necessarily make him racist,…if you give each the benefit of the doubt until a jury see all the evidence & hears all the testimony.
If people want any widespread respect for their opinion, people have to see that it respects a sense of utter fairness. I know that is hard for some due to past problems, but it is what will get more people to listen to your point of view & gains more favorable responses. If someone cannot acknowledge the possibilities & the facts of both sides, they look unreasonable & set in their thinking, which turns people off. Willingness to reason, to admit to facts & possibilities, etc. can show people you are reasonable & thinking, not just angry: it goes a long way as to how people perceive your “arguments”.
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Sarina—
He didn’t commit a crime. Or anyway whether he did or not is what this whole case is about. It’s sure as hell not clear that he did.
Also talk about wanting to have it both or all ways!!! Incredible really.
The Team Trayvon narrative from the beginning was that Zimmerman was a white vigilante racist who shot little angelic looking kid Trayvon carrying only skittles and iced tea like a rabid dog, due to his hatred of blacks or at least any who could conceivably be thought up to no good given how they were dressed and well, given that they were black. Yeah not stated by Crump that baldly but hinted at or more than that all the time, and his black echo chambers were and still are saying stuff like that.
So your question is really beyond belief.
Sure what matters is what actually happened, not suppositions based on racial attitudes. That’s what conservative bloggers and commenters have said about this all along, but hardly most blacks on the net or most lefty media either until it’s started to turn around recently.
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Oh it’s Sharina not Sarina. Sorry.
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BTW, in keeping with that, using fake “evidence” also makes people think something is wrong about a story. When it came out that the media edited the 911 calls, making Zimmerman seem racist outright, that made it look like a frame-up to many.
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“Zimmerman WAS the first victim the preponderance of the evidence out there shows. Trayvon certain suffered far greater harm as it turned out, but he brought that upon himself.”
Yeah okay. According to Zimmerman. How did someone bring it upon themselves if they were FOLLOWED? Your telling me, that if some 17 year old girl was being followed home by a 28 year old man, turned around and yelled at him after he asked her where she lived, an then wound up killed, you would believe her killer was the victim? I’m sure if the races were reversed you’d be arguing the opposite, so I’m not really interested in wading through your racism and hoping you actually have your own point of view.
How the heck does someone manage to shoot someone in the chest after having their head repeatedly bashed into the concrete? it’s not like your going to be fully coherent, able to do that, then stand over the body of the person you shot, then go in with minor injuries.
“Zimmerman is also the victim of an incredibly biased media campaign by Team Trayvon’s civil payday lawyer Crump’s spinning of the media and professional black racial hate and victimization mongers Al Sharpton and others. There was and remains a real effort to railroad Zimmerman by veiled (on the part of the leaders like Sharpton) and open on the part of the black twitter and other mobs, threats of rioting if they don’t get what they want.”
Sharpton had nothing to do with it until a certain point. The cops decided to act irresponsibility just like Zimmerman decided to “cowboy it up” before he shot Trayvon. They brought that crap down on their own heads. Zimmerman railroaded himself. It’s not “Team Trayvon”, it’s his family and their lawyers wanting justice for their sons murder. I know you don’t like the idea of black people wanting anything, but they deserve justice for the death of their son, and that’s all there is to it. And again, stop dwelling on the threats of black “mobs” and rioting and “black twitter”. The paranoia is just silly. If that were going to happen they would have. However, you have a habit of thinking in racist terms and attributing negative, violent behavior onto people who share the same skin color, so no, I’m not surprised you’d exaggerate and keep claiming these mobs are out there when people living in Florida have even told you they weren’t. Especially since you don’t mention the white Neo-Nazi patrols that were actually down there or anything. Your bias is telling.
“I want actual impartial justice, or as close to that as possible.”
No you don’t. You tried to paint Trayvon as a thug from the start, and automatically took Zimmerman’s claims as legitimate without even verifying what pictures you were looking at. If you did you would not persist in trying to portray Zimmerman as the victim and fail to acknowledge anything that says otherwise. The only fair trial would result in his conviction.
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Someguy–
And yet the jury which was mostly black, vote to acquit him.
What does that tell you about the relative allegiance of many blacks to truth and the rule of law versus racial solidarity against whites, no matter how just the white prosecution is, especially if it becomes a national black cause celeb event.
What percentage of black in Florida do you think can or would be impartial as jurors in the case if it actually goes before a jury (which I doubt)?
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I didn’t really think you had your finger on the pulse of the online Black community. Most Blacks, eh? ::insert eyeroll here::
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Look at this thread.
Unanimously hugely biased among the black commenters here, though less so in the cases of Sharina and Deedee.
But this thread is not the only place I’ve looked.
But hey, why don’t you link me to some places which show a lot of black commenters being reasonable about weighing the evidence that’s actually out there?
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@ Doug11,
Absolutely nothing, since white juries did the same thing for centuries and still do. Again, black is not a monolith, and you cannot compare the decisions of 12 jurors on a case you likely assumed OJ’s guilt on anyways to whether or not black people in Florida can or can’t be impartial. They aren’t children, remember?
Maybe white isn’t automatically as impartial as you like to believe, or maybe you should just stop trying to present your racism as a logical argument.
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Sorry, I’m mixed race. I can link you to some great mulatto sites though. We need all the hair tips we can find! Zoooom!
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Sharina—
There is no evidence whatsoever that Zimmerman wanted to detain Trayvon. He’d never done that before with the many suspicious acting characters he’d called into police before, according to the Reuters article. I think he just wanted to keep Trayvon in sight so as to be able to tell police exactly where he was when they arrived. There are lots of indications on his recorded call to police that that’s what he wanted to do.
It also makes no sense that Zimmerman, who was six inches shorter than Trayvon, and about the same weight would have wanted to detain Trayvon by physical conflict.
It also makes no sense when you have a concealed carry permit to follow someone who’s bigger than you and who may be armed without bringing along your gun. None whatsoever.
Look, blacks don’t have the right to beat up non-blacks that are irritating them. If the beat up gets threatening enough, I say yeah, pull out your concealed carry and shoot to stop it. I’d not hope for a death and I’m sure Zimmerman didn’t either.
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@ Doug the thing abut this case is that the Stand your ground law does not apply to this case. We do not know what Zimmerman did once he hung up the phone with the 911 operator. This I can agree on, but he was not sitting in his car. I can conclude from the 911 call that Zimmerman original was following Martin in his car, which is why Martin may have notice in the beginning. People seem to be less aware of their surroundings when they are on the phone especially when it is a loved one. I also can conclude that after Zimmerman hung up with the 911 operator that he got his gun and proceeded to follow Martin. Zimmerman got the gun in case Martin may have had a weapon…reasonable.
Now I have yet to find information on this, but the real thing that needs to be considered is where was Martin’s body found and where was Zimmerman’s truck? I know Zimmerman stated he made it back to his truck when he was attacked, so that fight would be there….The thing about Zimmerman’s story is that he is not detailing how he got on the sidewalk and how he got on the grass and how Martin ended up on top of him. I also found it scary that he shot Martin in the chest, when if he was in a scuffle to that magnitude he would have shot him in the stomach or better yet….How was he able to get to a gun with his head being slammed against the pavement?
Was John not one of the witnesses who saw them fighting on the grass?
I would more believe him if he stated that he got away from Martin and pulled the gun out and in an instant shot him. Still would not add up to self defense, but is it better than the bull he is feeding people so far.
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@ Someguy,
And I’m not even black. But I guess since in his mind black people are *insert negative quality here* we’re all magically just black since we don’t agree with him.
Sure I don’t see to many “white” sites being rational at all, but I guess to him, rational equals anything that depreciates black people.
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@ Ace
So true. We are either Black, Liberal or Socialist in their minds. So limited. So sad.
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@ Doug please stop comparing me to every black person. You don’t know every black person so to lump us in and state that is what we believe is juvenile. It is that mentality that is ruining a civilized conversation. I for one never said he was racist. I said I needed evidence he was racist. I got the evidence I need so end of discussion. My Mexican husband believed he was flat out racist.
You are mixing you speculation in with facts and claiming it as facts. Another common habit of conservative bloggers.
The speculation that Zimmerman did nothing is what is really getting people in a panty bunch and no real evidence proves that Zimmerman did not start that fight. It is common sense because the area where Martin was found did not have peek-a-boo hiding places, so how did he loose him.
Someone I know was in a similar situation back in 2003. The big difference was this person had a knife and not a gun. She beat the snot out of of this individual simply because they pulled the knife on her and she did not know they were going to use it. This female went home, cleaned up, and then called the police on her. Because of a possible head injury the ambulance was called and the girl was examined. My friend was arrested on the spot. To make a long story short my friend was found not guilty under self defense because the female actually followed her home.
The judge used the analogy of..If you corner a cat, then it is going to claw its way out to get out and away.
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@ Doug never said there was evidence that Zimmerman tried to detain Martin. I said that is what I stand to believe based on the 911 calls. Also reading Reuters is not going to help with a unbiased judgement. Just listen to the evidence and that is it. When you go on any type of media based search for answers you are pulling yourself into the bias of the writer. This is what brings about the mindset that speculation is fact.
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@Ace “OJ has nothing to do with this case, and frankly has no reason to be brought up. Blacks are not a monolith. Also, take more issue with the high number of white people who support ZImmerman. Then you’d have a comparison.”
“Blacks are much more likely than nonblacks to have an opinion about Zimmerman’s guilt. Overall, 72% of blacks say Zimmerman is definitely or probably guilty of a crime; 1% say he is not. Nonblacks also say Zimmerman is guilty, by 32% to 7%, but well over half of nonblacks say Zimmerman’s guilt is unclear from the available information.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/153776/blacks-nonblacks-hold-sharply-different-views-martin-case.aspx
From the Gallup survey above:
“Blacks are more certain about their opinions than are nonblacks. Blacks who say Zimmerman is guilty of a crime are significantly more likely to say he is definitely guilty than probably guilty, while nonblacks tilt more toward the “probably guilty” choice.”
@Someguy “Which Blacks were those exactly? I remember that trial vividly and no one I knew thought OJ was innocent, Black or White.”
From the same Gallup survey above:
“U.S. public opinion about the Trayvon Martin case in Florida reflects the same type of racial divide found in 1995 surveys asking about the murder trial of O.J. Simpson in Los Angeles. In one Gallup poll conducted Oct. 5-7, 1995, for example, 78% of blacks said the jury that found Simpson not guilty of murder made the right decision, while only 42% of whites agreed.”
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Someguy–
Talk about talking out of both sides of your mouth, hypocrite.
No I didn’t just assume OJ’s guilt, I concluded it from the evidence. That you said all the people you personally know white and black did as well.
What’s wrong with you???
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@ duckduckgoofs…You are citing polls that do what…state what you want to hear. I am black and I have never been asked to take a poll or survey involving my feelings towards anything….ever. It is sad that people are still clinging to the misinformation.
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duck–
A far smaller percentage of whites would have agreed if our mainstream mass media wasn’t so heavily tilted left, esp. then when fox news either didn’t exist or was in it’s infancy. If covered by the far more though still not evenly divided British media, the results would have been different among whites.
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@ doug. That sentence you just made is very hard to read. I will remove my commentary and you can read it at face value.
76.041 Use of force by aggressor.–The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or.
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant;
or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.
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@ duckduckgoofs
Succinctly put: F*ck Gallup.
Since that isn’t my quote, I’m going to assume that wasn’t for me.
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@Sharina
“You are citing polls that do what…state what you want to hear.”
Do you not belong to the 72% of blacks who say Zimmerman is definitely or probably guilty?
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@Someguy
You’re opinion of the poll doesn’t change the results.
The rest of your comment didn’t have anything to do with me.
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@ duckduckgoofs…I believe he did commit a crime, but how do you conclude 72% when I personally never took a survey in regards to my feeling of the case? I stand by my statement of you picking out a survey that states what you want to hear.
I guess you are also going to assume I think Zimmerman is racist. I bet you are also assuming I can to the conclusion he was guilty without hearing the facts too.
*ATTENTION EVERYONE* How many black commenters have taken a survey asking them if they feel Zimmerman is guilty? Not the one on this site but others outside of this site.
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Sharina—
There’s lots of circumstantial evidence that that is very unlikely. And the evidence that the Reuter’s article uncovered is part of that. No O’Mara can’t introduce that article into evidence, but he can call as witnesses the neighbors that the Reuter’s article’s author interviewed in good old fashioned shoe leather journalism, as witnesses, and I imagine will. It goes to Zimmerman’s state of mind as to what was likely or unlikely he did that night. Admissible.
By legal rights this prosecution will be dismissed at an immunity hearing on grounds of self defense, and a civil lawsuit automatically barred as well as a result. At least on present evidence.
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And the Gallup pole doesn’t change or reflect reality. What’s your point?
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Sharina–
There’s also no indication from Zimmerman’s call to the police that he wanted to detain Trayvon. Only that he wanted to keep him in sight in order to tell the police exactly where he was.
As well if Trayvon was scared of Zimmerman, he had plenty of time from when Zimmerman called the police to when the fight broke out to get home to the place he was staying with his dad and his dad’s fiance. The distances in this place were small. Check out wagist. He also could have but didn’t call 911. I don’t think he was scared, or if so, only at the very beginning before Zimmerman got out of his truck and revealed how much shorter he was than Trayvon, 6″. I think he felt dissed and mad. DeeDee says he was scared but just how credible is she, or even how able to actually read him? She quotes nothing in that assessment.
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@Sharina
The poll shows most blacks believe Zimmerman is guilty. You also believe Zimmerman is guilty. So why don’t you like the poll results?
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@Someguy
And the Gallup pole doesn’t change or reflect reality. What’s your point?
No, the gallup poll doesn’t change reality. But it does reflect it. My point is that you are prejudiced and disregard information which doesn’t support your prejudices. You even disregard information that does support your prejudices if it comes from a source you are prejudiced against. That’s my point.
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@ duckduckgoofs
…and you are assuming you know me and my intentions and beliefs.
“There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics.”
-Mark Twain
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@Someguy
“There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics.”
-Mark Twain
Which do you tell the most?
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But seriously, you bigots and your phony statistics. You guys need to stop. You come here, post a few stats and think it fights your battle for you like some little pokemon. Sorry, brah. You are going to actually fight your own battles.
Do your own work.
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@ Doug how can other people know of Zimmerman’s mindset. Only Zimmerman knows that and exactly what evidence points to him not trying to detain Martin?
It does not matter what witness is called…None of them are going to be able to say what Zimmerman was thinking. A reasonable person can conclude the Zimmerman was frustrated from the tapes. It is also reasonable that he followed Martin because he wanted to be sure the criminal got caught this time. Again he had no plans on sitting and waiting on the cops. If he had not followed him then explain to me how they ended up on the grass (evidence proves was on grass) and not at Zimmerman’s vehicle. Zimmerman stated he had made it back to his car, when he was attacked. So that whole fight should have taken place on pavement.
It is small inconsistencies in his story that makes me as a reasonable person question to what extent he is telling the truth. I believe part of what he is saying may be true, but I think when it comes to who attacked first…this is where the lies start coming out. He has every reason to lie because he is facing jail time if found guilty. It is just too darn easy to say Martin started it. Not only because he is dead, but because it gets Zimmerman off on a clean slate. Also if this is a life and death situation. Why did Zimmerman not get in the ambulance? Not only for his own safety as a head injury is serious, but because this case would be a clear shot of self-defense if he had. No question from me what so ever.
Does this make sense to people? I got a serious head injury and the first thing I do is allow some stranger to take pictures of my head and call my spouse. I don’t need any ambulance assistance, but it was such a life and death situation I had to shoot.
You know I would actually believe Zimmerman more if he said I thought he had a gun, so I shot first, but Martins Autopsy report will prove plenty. That is something most people forget. You may want to say that Zimmerman is not guilty and be found as such, but I will wait and see what the autopsy concludes.
Oh and remember how Zimmerman told Martin’s parents that he thought he was a little bit younger than him. A bold face lie. He told the 911 operator that he was late teens. So once again tell me how he is not a liar. He is playing on the sympathy of people who are gun owners and who already have bad outlook on blacks.
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Talking about stats, what percentage of men scratch their scrotums and why?
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060623153349AA6nVAa
There was recently a provincial election here in Canada where stats showed that one of the parties would win by a landslide. The purported party that was supposed to lose won by a landslide. So much for stats. I am with Markus Twainus on this one:
Facts are stubborn, but statistics are more pliable.
In other words I don’t trust too many stats unless context is applied. Even then they are subjective. I would apply the same for these so-called Zimmerman stats.
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@Sharina
I agree that I don’t feel that Zimmerman was being completely honest in his telling of the story. He made many decisions that were poor choices and a shocking comment is that a friend mentioned that he thought it would “blow over”. That is troubling to me. The necessary steps he needed to take to ensure he was ok, he never took until a day after the incident. Which brings into question how seriously was Martin hitting him. Zimmerman had at least 25 pounds on Martin. Zimmerman was fit. Martin could have gained the advantage but for Zimmerman to portray himself as helpless throughout the confrontation just seems odd to me. Zimmerman should just be completely honest. The courts will bring everything to light and dishonesty will only hurt Zimmerman’s case.
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@duckduckgoofs. I have been weary of polls since I took a course in college dealing with statistics. The course had a section regarding the bias of polls and how it may render numbers or some idea of what is going on it is not completely conclusive as you have to take in the many bias factors. So if the person he did the poll concludes that all backs feel a certain way from their own feelings and emotions then of course they are going to go by a 72% chance. Same as if a racist black did a poll and concluded that 90% of whites are races.
It boils down to how can you claim the accuracy of something that does not get the opinion of every single person of the race they are trying to project and most statistics don’t claim to. It is like saying a person interviews 4 fat people on why they are fat and concludes that 75% of fat people are fat because they are big boned. See how ridiculous that sounds.
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Herneith
So you’re not one of the 72% of blacks who thinks Zimmerman is guilty?
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racist*
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@Sharina
“It is like saying a person interviews 4 fat people on why they are fat and concludes that 75% of fat people are fat because they are big boned. See how ridiculous that sounds.”
Most pollsters wouldn’t conclude 75% of fat people are fat because they are big boned. They would conclude 75% of fat people claim they are fat because they are big boned. Of course, with a sample that small they might give a 25% margin of error.
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@ deedee
I think a lot of people want to know the truth. As a parent i would want to know what happened in the last part of my sons life. Zimmerman is the only one that knows. I did not know he said to a friend he thought it would blow over. That is an interesting tid bit of information. I would also think that someone one who shot someone would be shaken up as they did take someones life. I get shaken up every time I fire my gun at the gun range. I don’t think I would be remotely calm if I had shot someone.
This is the age of shoot and ask questions later though. What happened to fist fights and good ole fashion ass woop’ins.
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@duckduckgoose it was nothing more than an example. I did not take it serious and nor should you. My point is that you do not know who the sample actually is and how many people it is made up of. They could have took 25 blacks and ask that question too and it was decided on the 75%, but you would not know. No one would know.
I just personally prefer not to make people statistics. I meet people and if I like them they become like family, but you will never catch me saying all white people are anything because I don’t know all white people. I would never say 80% if white people are such in such because I don’t know 80% of white people. For some it is so easy to make blacks a statistic, even though they don’t know or have any idea about 72% of black people.
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@Sharina
So its not that you think it should be a higher or lower number. You just don’t like polls?
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@Sharina
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/trayvon-martin-shooting-geroge-zimmerman-legal-advisor-joe-oliver-interview-us-15997138
Around the 3:00 minute mark Zimmerman’s friend Joe Oliver says that Zimmerman said to him that it would all blow over.
I honestly don’t know when guns became the answer. It might be due to weak gun laws but I would have to do some research to know if that is fact. At least with fists people can more likely walk away from it. Its really just troubling and as a society maybe we should rethink the level of violence that we are exposed to. People can possibly become less sensitive to violence.
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@ deedee7789,
That remark remains consistent with the same nonchalance that we’ve seen from Trayvon’s murderer so far . Disturbing how unaffected he remains by an innocent child’s death.
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@JT
I would have to agree. The friends mentions Zimerman crying days after the incident. That is werid. The cops did not report seeing him tearful or shaken up at the scene and he clearly and calmly told his side to the cops at the scene and during questioning. He took someone’s life and for the most part seemed unfazed by it. That is scary to me.
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deedee It might be due to weak gun laws but I would have to do some research to know if that is fact. At least with fists people can more likely walk away from it.
Actually, the 10 states with the lowest rate of gun ownership have a higher average murder rate than the 10 states with the highest rate of gun ownership. As for the second part, I was shot twice and walked away. The guy who shot me didn’t.
@JT the same nonchalance that we’ve seen from Trayvon’s murderer so far .
There’s no need for a trial, folks. JT has already pronounced zimmerman guilty. I guess we just need to replace the court system with JT. It would should save a lot of time.
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@ duckduckgoose that is basically it.
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@duckduckgoose
Is that accounting for legal vs. illegal gun ownership? I’m not sure if it would be possible to account for illegal gun ownership but then again I don’t know anything about guns and the laws surrounding them so I’m looking toward more informed commenters for insight. Also, I’m happy you were able to survive and it is unfortunate that you were shot. I just wonder about the effectiveness of gun laws.
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There’s nothinging weird about that at all. Zimmerman was in shock. He had no desire to kill Trayvon at all but realized he had.
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@ Deedee7789,
Agreed. Maybe losing all of his gate-community luxuries and being incarcerated for a life sentence would stir some emotion in him. And even if it didn’t – who cares. He admits to shooting and killing Trayvon. And Trayvon was armed with ice tea and skittles. WE DONT NEED TO HEAR MUCH ELSE.
He should have never exited the car loaded with a pistol. He wanted to play cowboy and Black person that day and he got what he wanted. He could have listened to the dispatch or left his pistol in the car. INstead he got excited and went after Trayvon fully loaded.
You know what white conservative trash says: “Don’t retreat, reload!”
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Just because a court system let’s you off does not always mean you are not guilty. It can mean they did not have enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt someone is guilty.
I hold true to my belief of guilty based on Zimmerman’s own words. Things he says just does not make sense, but it will all come out in court.
@ deedee..For someone who did not have shady motive how in hell do you feel so at ease killing someone. That is completely disturbing to me. It makes me wonder if his emotion is based on fear of retaliation or jail. I also find it funny that everyone under the sun is speaking for this man and he has refrained from speaking too much for his self. It is easy for family and friends to tell a story about something as it is believed to be true for them, but when the person that did it is not speaking out too much that is scary. He may be afraid he will get caught in another lie.
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@Doug
After looking up symptoms of shock you made a valid point. It is called “delayed shock” when someone doesn’t immediately go through shock after an event and can take up to a year. However, once the shock occurs it is difficult for the person to function correctly. Zimmerman may have cried but was able to create a website on his own and defend himself rather than being highly disturbed by the event, being angry most of the time, or starting to use drugs to cope. But then again I could be wrong. http://outfront.blogs.cnn.com/2012/04/23/body-language-expert-george-zimmerman-appeared-angry-in-court/ . Shock could be determines at an hospital but I haven’t heard any news reporting that Zimmerman was determined to have shock by a medical personal. So *shrugs*.
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@ deedee gun laws are effective when you have individuals that are properly trained to use them. If you own a gun you are then taking responsibility for the actions that occur with that gun (my thoughts).
Even a trained police officer are shaken up anytime they have to shoot someone or use deadly force to detain someone. It is just human nature to feel that way. You can take into account shock, but I will have to see accounts where it takes days before you realize you shot someone and then to cry. I have heard of people in shock hours after the incident or the next day but not days after killing someone. Sociopaths can probably kill someone and go their whole life without feeling one emotion unless they feel they need to to look more sympathetic.
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@ deedee thanks for the link and you make a real good point. I would think that someone who is facing jail time that I as well as my lawyer would be advising me to get medical documentation of all my issues instead of digging up Zimmerman’s black friends and family history. Again the issue is not about racism it is about him killing someone. I guess the racism issue is the way of deterring from the real issue at hand.
@Jt Thanks for that information from both you and deedee because I was not aware of how he was responding to the matter other than he was not really responding at all.
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@Sharina
That is weird that everyone that Zimmerman spoke to seems to know what happened based on what Zimemrman told them. Not based on evidence of the case. His family and friends just don’t want to believe that it was murder and that is understandable but to paint Zimemrman as a person who couldn’t possibly commit murder is foolish. Zimmerman is being very selective on information that he gives out which is something that is distrubing to me because saying everything will make his innocence more apparent. Lying will only make him get closer to a conviction. He is definitely not telling everything as far as what eveidence has been linked and his testimony are concerned.
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the burden of proof is on the state, if they have no evidence they must aquit. most evidence points to self defense even if zimmerman said nothing.
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@ Sharina,
Trayvon’s death is a painful subject all around and the details get more and more horrendous. It is hard to log on and read about this situation but justice needs to be had. Turning a blind eye to it clearly won’t help as Zimmerman’s family helps suppress any legal procedure from happening (look at how the Sanford police department/lead prosecutor tried to bungle the investigation from the get-go by sending a narcotics investigator instead of a murder investigator, found no cause to believe his actions were self-defense, and swept things under the rub until people started to put attention to it. This is how justice works with whites if you don’t watch their every move. They do everything possible to protect their own and find every excuse to justify the inexcusable).
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our constitution says we have in inalienable rights period the second amendment states right to bear arms . so according to that a permit is illegal and all citizens have the right to protect themselves even felons (see part one inalienable rights) if someone kills someone and happens to be using a gun , murder is a crime which can take your life away , self defense through whatever means chosen at the time of the event. nobody has the right to tell a human being what is legal to defend themself with. we are all sovereign citizens here.
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@circusboy9010…”nobody has the right to tell a human being what is legal to defend themself with..”
Not sure what you are trying to say here, but the law determines what is a reasonable amount of force. Why is it that cops can take down a man or woman without shooting them? and it is completely justified in the case of Zimmerman? What makes it more reasonable for him over a cop? Nothing. Fighting with someone and you are loosing the fight does not mean it was reasonable to shoot them.
The problem is when people do things bad and choose not to take responsibility for something; they always want to blame it on lax laws or on the victim. In my opinion it is the same as when a man rapes a woman and blames her for the way she is dressed or her job.
“so according to that a permit is illegal and all citizens have the right to protect themselves even felons….”
Are you drunk? Felons can protect themselves but by law felons are not allowed to legally carry a fire arm. If they get one it is illegal. If they are caught with one…they usually find themselves back in jail.
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@ JT…One of the most funny things I have found on other message boards is soon as you hit their logic hard enough with facts they stop responding to you all together. Still not admitting where they have been wrong.
I had one guy beat me down trying to tell me that Martin was found with burglary tools on him, when he was shot. Then he will go all off subject. I started hammering him on his quote about “Martin having burglary tools on him when he was shot.” He stated he did not say that and when I brought the quote back to him he just stop responding or coming back with his dumb rhetoric.
I just find it hard to believe that people are raging about skin color and how blacks just want to hang this guy and not addressing the real issue. The issue is not skin color. The issue is justice.
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right off the bat the most people were snowed about marting with a 4 year old photo making him appear to be an innocent preteen , when in actuality he is a hardened thuig @ age 17 and just as big and strong as zimmerman, with attitude to beat. the martin side of this story has been told with lies and innuendo to make it seem like he was hunted down like a wild dog and shot in cold blood.
in actuality the roofers who were working in the area during the crime wave all stated it was always a black youth casing houses for burlary and even the police verify this when stolen property was found in the cars of the youths (kids don’t drive cars young adults do) . so this was not pure profiling but reality. if black youth’s are being caught with the evidence of a break in , then most likely (in a non black gated neighborhood) any black youth walking around at night after dark (randomly , is not just going to the store) especially when dressed as a gangbanger and not like other normal residents of the neighborhood. an honest respectable member of the neighborhood would not have reason to hide from his neighbors because he would have known zimmerman to be out protecting the neighborhood and him too and have no reason to do other than walk up and say hello to george. only a criminal would attack in retaliation of a man who is protecting everybody in the neighborhood including martin if he was not up to no good.
yes the real issue is justice justice for a man who if he was racially profiling and seeking out black youth’s for assasination , would have disposable guns that had no ties to him,(easy to find )& not have called the police (would also have clothes that can be disposed of that do not show powder burns or evidence of being the killer) the mans relative was a judge and probably would know how to get away with the crime perfectly if he wanted to hunt down undesireables in his neighborhood, & the police would commend him for making their job easier.
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the mark of an innocent man $150k on hand could just flee the country if he was guilty. oh wait a minute a judge who has nothing to do with his website has illegally frozen money that has nothing to do with this case (even if it did the judge has no business blocking a mans income that could get him better representation , that’s what the donor’s probably had in mind.) if that many people believe in him to donoate it’s nobody’s concern what the man does with the funds. period end of story a horrible injustice is happening here.
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What I don’t understand is, how hard is it to own up to your actions? You killed someone’s son. You didn’t listen to directions, you tried to be a cowboy and when it didn’t go the way you wanted you shot someone. You can’t keep telling inconsistent stories and playing the victim when someone else is dead. We know that if it were reversed, Zimmerman’s family would want justice.
The guy drove around with a loaded gun (a no-no for neighborhood watch), followed someone, then shot them. What’s so hard to understand about wanting him to get a fair punishment?
Also, what’s with this attempt to derail by claiming blacks can’t be impartial? Why can’t we discuss this without people resorting to that crap?
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Sharina
In an earlier comment you said you don’t like statistics and “you will never catch me saying all white people are anything because I don’t know all white people.”
I noticed you didn’t object to JT saying, “This is how justice works with whites if you don’t watch their every move. They do everything possible to protect their own and find every excuse to justify the inexcusable).”
So you don’t like polls or statistics. But its okay to make those kidns of racist statements if they’re NOT backed by polls and statistics?
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@ Sharina
Somehow people don’t like it when you tell the truth, Sharina. They take the truth as offensive because it messes with their sensibilities.
And they are right – it should mess with their sensibilities and put them in a heightened state of cognitive dissonance. Because their sense of self as told through white nationhood, “race realism” is at odds with reality.
Look at the situation: A peaceful young Black man is dead, needlessly. A patrol-neurotic and racist daddy’s boy murderer is alive, free, and raking in $200 000+ from his rabid fan base and slandering the name of the murdered Black youth, together.
It is a nightmare situation – it should mess with their sensibilities. Hopefully something pops loose in their thinking as to reveal the folly of their attitudes/beliefs. Because they are inaccurate and biased.
@ anyone,
I meant every word of this statement that can be read above regarding my objection with many white people’s tendency to piss on you and then tell you that its raining. Here is the problem quotation for some posters just so he can see that I mean my factual statement:
”
”
”
@ Sharina,
Trayvon’s death is a painful subject all around and the details get more and more horrendous. It is hard to log on and read about this situation but justice needs to be had. Turning a blind eye to it clearly won’t help as Zimmerman’s family helps suppress any legal procedure from happening (look at how the Sanford police department/lead prosecutor tried to bungle the investigation from the get-go by sending a narcotics investigator instead of a murder investigator, found no cause to believe his actions were self-defense, and swept things under the rub until people started to put attention to it. This is how justice works with whites if you don’t watch their every move. They do everything possible to protect their own and find every excuse to justify the inexcusable).
”
”
“
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@JT “Somehow people don’t like it when you tell the truth”
According to your logic, people being offended by your unsupported and racist claims is evidence of the “truth”. Does it then follow that if someone isn’t offended that it must be a lie?
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@duckduckgoose “you will never catch me saying all white people are anything because I don’t know all white people.” Now because you currently want trying to be an douche I will respond in kind. Find one post where I said all white people. Go look through find it.
Jt is a grown a** man. It is not my job to change his mind. It is my job to state my opinion on things and that is what I have politely done for everyone in here. I have never even tried to change your mind on anything or chastise you on anything but it is funny how because I am not completely with you then you are trying to push me off as racist. Just because you want to chat bully everyone…JT seems to be your favorite… does not mean I have to write his opinions off. Opinions are like a**holes….everyone has one.
You are just completely childish. You want to find flaw in my feelings and what I am saying well find them type them, but if that is the only flaw in my saying you are just freaking pitiful. You have to be right you have to feel that you are right well you are wrong about many things but your dumb opinions are your own. FYI check other chats where I have happily stated my opinions on statistics.
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@ circusboy9010…What makes him a thug? I find it funny that you say that but you can not tell me in what why he is a thug? I have a white guy that lives down the street and he is loaded up with tattoos. Is he a thug too? I will mention what you said to him because he is no stranger to kicking the a*** of idiots.
Dead mean tell no tails so please explain to me what is Martin’s side of the story? He has not story to tell and we have been only so far going by Zimmerman’s own words. I don’t really get to see or listen to much on the families story.
I might as well waive you off as an idiot. What in hell does other people burglarizing an area have to do with do with anything. As I posted before…are you drunk? You literally have the most idiotic post to ever be posted here. You bring shame to your family.
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@duckduckgoose…Take all day. Take all weak. You will never find what you are looking for to prove me as biased to any race. I have a Filipino friend who feels the exact same way as JT. She stated just last week that white people are rude. I did not chastise her as if she was a child. It was her opinion and she is 20 years my senior. Enough about me..I will lead you to your search
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Marissa Alexander Stood Her Ground – No One Was Injured or Murdered – She Faces 25 Years In Prison
http://moorbey.wordpress.com/2012/04/15/marissa-alexander-stood-her-ground-no-one-was-injured-or-murdered-she-faces-25-years-in-prison/
This speaks for itself.
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Sharina–
No he didn’t say that.
Through his father and brother he said he was HEADED back towards is car when he was approached from behind and to the side by Trayvon. Even DeeDee says that Trayvon initiated the verbal confrontation by demanding of Zimmerman “Why are you following me?”
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@doug
At one point Zimmerman had stated he was attacked at his car. Now if the story has changed since then hmmm leaves a lot of questions.
Secondly just because the father and brother says it makes it valid in what way? They are only repeating things they think happened but they are not there. I watched the fox interview and they stated the information as if they knew it to be fact, which they don’t. They are about as credible as OJ.
Thirdly….Excuse me if I am wrong but at what point did I even mention what Trayvon said to Zimmerman. My focus has been strictly on Zimmerman’s own words. I have not even started on what Martin said, but since you want to debate on that. Trayvon asks why are you following me…so what. That is not a verbal altercation. Last I checked it was a question and if someone is following you close enough would you not ask them that.
You post has not only proved my point but some points of others if you are sticking by it. If Zimmerman was following in the shadows as many have claimed, then why is it that he was close enough for Martin to ask him why he was following him?
As an adult I would think by now that you do not need someone else confirmation that you are right. It reminds me of my 10 year old cousin who is always say “but my friend said it.”
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Sharina–
Sure Zimmerman has motive to lie. So too does DeeDee. Not only because she was Trayvon’s friend and perhaps girlfriend but also because she a young black teen and the “I am Trayvon” fervor in the black community particularly in Sanford and Miami is huge.
However Zimmerman spoke to police on three separate occasions for hours and hours without an attorney. Police have said that his statements where for the most part consistent on all the big stuff. We also know from the Reuters article that he’d never confronted any of the many suspicious people he’d called into the police before, even verbally. He specifically said to the police on one occasion that he didn’t want to. What Zimmerman sounded somewhat frustrated about on his call to police was that he’d lost site to Trayvon. It seems that’s what he wanted to do, keep them in sight.
It doesn’t have to be a life and death situation, though people die from having their heads bashed against cement sometimes, especially if done repeatedly. Zimmerman’s reasonable fear that he faced the imminent real possibility of great bodily injury or a violent felony was enough. Having your nose broken and head bashed against the cement sidewalk qualifies for both. No he wasn’t put into a coma yet, or given a serious concussion yet. He shot in panic because Trayvon wasn’t content to have beaten Zimmerman up, he was keeping doing it, as corroborated by eyewitness John. That’s what Trayvon did that got himself killed.
This is really a very easy case of valid self defense. It just has a huge amount of back race rousing emotion about it, drummer up by sleazeball lawyer Crump and sleazeball race mongerer Al Sharpton, with a long complicit media, peddling lies such as pictures of Trayvon when he was a harmless and angelic looking 12 yo kid.
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Sharina–
I don’t think he did. Maybe one of his early lawyers said that and got it wrong, or maybe you’ve gotten it wrong. I’ve not seen that from any of the people that are following this closely. Crump has also put out a ton of misinformation.
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@ Doug
“Even DeeDee says that Trayvon initiated the verbal confrontation by demanding of Zimmerman “Why are you following me?”
LOL you meant the girlfriend. Sorry about that.
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Sharina–
Zimmerman took the police back to the scene of the fight and shooting the next day. He took them to the sidewalk and grass that was maybe 50 yards from where he’d parked his truck, in front of John’s townhouse.
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@ Doug…don’t know Crump but i will find that statement for you. When I first started even paying attention to the case the story was “That he was attacked at his car.” Attacked from behind. I have also heard stories of how Martin punched him in the nose an knocked him down (not the attacked from behind story anymore). Now the story is he was on his way back to his car (ok so we can stick with that since that is the new one).
We can always blame his original lawyers for lying, but you still need to question why would they need to lie if they know full well he is innocent. I have worked in the solicitors office and when they have evidence believe me that use it to the fullest. Kind of as if they are throwing it in your face of “I got you and I want to see you get out of this one.” I have heard people say all kind of bad things about his original lawyers lately. Not buying it.
Also because you don’t think so does not mean it is not so. As we have previously discussed. There is a lot about this case that people think they know about and they don’t. You can follow it night and day and still not know. People think they know Zimmerman is innocent and Martin is a thug. As if they actually know these people.
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Quick question. Is Zimmerman still holding the gun in the photo with the cuts and some blood on the back of his head? I would have assumed he would have placed the gun back into his pants after realizing Martin was no longer a “threat”. That’s a bit..interesting.
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No they spoke before Zimmerman says Trayvon attacked him. Approaching him from behind and to the side doesn’t mean that Zimmerman didn’t turn to face him when Trayvon approached and spoke to him.
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Crump is the civil lawyer for Trayvon’s parents. He and the PR firm he engaged on their behalf have put out a ton of misinformation.
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@ Doug..You don’t have to lecture me about the media. All my information is simply based on Zimmerman’s 911 tape and I have lightly touched base on anything else. As for your need to bring up deedee…I have not yet to mention what she has said as you constantly keep trying to bring up her and refute her. Also you start with this black community crap for what. The black community does not dictate or change my opinion so any talks of them are irrelevant. Let stick to facts and stop attempting to steer away from that. I am beginning to feel like when you can’t make valid points then you bring up the black community, crump, and sharpton crap. Hell it goes to show you how little I actually know about the black side of this because did not know crump and did not know who or which deedee you were referring to.
Back to the points at hand….”However Zimmerman spoke to police on three separate occasions for hours and hours without an attorney. Police have said that his statements where for the most part consistent on all the big stuff.” Which means his story had some changes in it based on your own statement. I stated “I believe part of what he is saying may be true, but I think when it comes to who attacked first…this is where the lies start coming out.” So I never said he was a complete liar. I just said when it comes to the altercation is where this may not been what he is saying.
So now he is frustrated because he lost somebody. why is that a frustration? Personally it makes more sense for someone to be frustrated because of constant break in and criminals getting away, even when you are making an effort for them to get caught. Based on your statement it is as if you are saying He was frustrated because he lost him then it just proves he was on stalk mode.
As far as his reasonable fear…All I can say is if you are afraid of an a*** woop’in then don’t get into fights. Funny that Zimmerman couldn’t get away but he could get to that gun.
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@ Doug….If Zimmerman was in such shock as you claimed in a previous post, How can he calmly and clearly walk police officers through a crime scene and have it not hit him that he killed someone? Also do you mind directing me to where it says Zimmerman walked police through crime scene the next day.
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His first lawyer in particular was a doofus. His normal stock in trade was DUI offenses. Zimmerman just knew him. He could have gotten what Zimmerman said to him wrong.
The legal community was widely blasting his original lawyers. Their resigning from the case and they way they did it saying Zimmerman had been out of touch for two days etc. was unprofessional conduct. (Zimmerman was search for a lawyer to replace them it turns out, and found O’Mara who’s done an excellent job so far including in handling the press, but also at the bail bond hearing.)
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Sharina–
He did know he’d killed Trayvon, that’s the primary reason he was in shock.
He walked police through the crime scene the next day. He talked to them on three different occasions he said on the stand at his bail bond hearing.
I don’t remember where I read that he walked police through the crime scene the next day but I’m sure I read it somewhere in the media. You can probably find it through google.
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@ Doug…I will continue to search for that information. I have not found anything regarding it so far. Just the opinions of journalists.
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Sharina Find one post where I said all white people. Go look through find it.
I never said that you have. But you’ve cheerfully chosen to participate on a blog where that is the theme. So I’m asking whether you disagree with JT.
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Sharina–
Have you ever been in shock. People are often calm and emotionless, emotionally numb, when they’re really in shock. You can often focus intently on what happened.
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@Sharina
Yeah, even I had to look up the grilfriend’s name because before doug mentioned it I didn’t know it. I keep finding speculation by “journalist” who should know that the number 1 rule is to write without bias. Also, @doug please point to where Zimmerman states that he did not know that Martin was killed. That doesn’t sound reasonable.
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@ Doug I am aware that people in shock respond that way, but I am also questioning whether he was actually in shock. Now that he is out of shock. Where is the therapist?
@duckduckgoose…I have also cheerfully chosen to participate in conservative blogs as well, but that is neither here nor there. I see nothing wrong with having an opinion and I personally don’t think I should have to agree or disagree with his statement just so you have your proof that I am a racist, but just so you feel better. I don’t agree that all whites are that way. I do agree that there are racist whites, just as there are racist blacks and non-racist blacks.
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@ Duckduckgoose,
No where does anyone say “all white people” on this blog. If they are they are often corrected. Just because someone says “racist” doesn’t mean every white person on the face of the earth.
@ Doug111,
How would Zimmerman not know that Trayvon was dead? That doesn’t make sense. It also doesn’t make sense that he’d be capable of firing a killing shot to the chest if he was bashed in the head so bad that he could have a concussion. But then, I’d question the logic of approaching someone with a loaded gun and the safety off if you weren’t planning on using your weapon. I recall that you aren’t supposed to carry a loaded gun with the safety off. So how could he have time to take out the gun, load it, and turn the safety off if he was attacked from the start?
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Ace–
Why don’t you read what I wrote? I said GZ did know Trayvon was dead. He probably knew shorting after shooting him by e.g. taking his pulse, Or maybe he inadvertently shot him in the heart.
I didn’t say he sustained a concussion. I said he probably reasonably feared he would, or go into a coma or die. His brother also said that Trayvon at certain points was holding his hand over Zimmerman’s mouth and nose and he was having trouble breathing.
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What bothers me about Zimmerman is his overall attitude about the whole thing. If I killed someone whether it was in self-defense or not, I would be a nervous crying wreck. I would be extreme apologetic to the family as well. He seemed as if he is entitled to some sort of special privileges however. His main goal seems to be getting funds for his legal team. He comes off a bit cold to me. It also puzzles me that people are concerned about this man’s reputation being tarnished by the media yet present no qualms about Trayvon being tarnished by the media. These same people say Zimmerman is being demonized because he is white Hispanic but they have no qualms about Trayvon being demonized because he is a young, black teen. Nobody said black people were racist against Casey Anthony when we thought her baby killing azz got away with murder.
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@ doug still no news on Zimmerman walking police through the crime scene, but I did find other information. It was stated that Zimmerman went to his car and was attacked.” That can be taken in different ways depending on how you would view it, but it is not the information I thought it was which was “Martin attacks Zimmerman at car” so in that I am wrong.
@duckduckgoose..I believe in general this site may actually be referring to racist whites. You have the mindset that all blacks are racists and hate whites. That mindset does not allow you to see each individual black as different. The moment a black person does not fit into what you want them to be, then you are constantly trying to find proof that they are. You have to be right because there is no way that black person can not fit into the mold.Same thing you bash others for you are now doing. I am sorry that I do not fit into that stereotype, but you need to get over it.
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“His brother also said that Trayvon at certain points was holding his hand over Zimmerman’s mouth and nose and he was having trouble breathing.” His brother knows how? Are you implying that Zimmerman’s brother was there. My 5 year old is a more reliable witness that Zimmerman’s brother.
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Sharina–
My view of what likely happened is entirely based on all the actual seemingly reliable facts that are out there, which I’ve looked into . I’m one of the few on this thread that has had a fact as opposed to emotion filled view of what happened.
You have largely stuck to the facts too when you aren’t busy insulting me.
As for all the black rabble rousing it’s had a definite effect in this case and surround this case. It’s polluting the jury pool especially among black potential jurors. It’s gotten Zimmerman arrested for political reasons when he shouldn’t have been given the lack of evidence that the special prosecutor has referred to in both the charging affidavit and the bail bond hearing.
There have been many whites who have gotten beaten up by gangs of blacks over little or nothing as blacks chant “justice for Trayvon”. The whole initial presentation of his image to the press was a big far near total lie, and Zimmerman was vastly misrepresented by slimeball civil suit lawyer Crump and the PR firm he brought in.
This case has mostly been about media spinning so far.
The Sanford police have been slandered by black leaders such as Sharpton and yes many in the black community in Sanford and around the country.
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Sabrina–
Obviously because George Zimmerman talked to is brother about what happened.
Why is it necessary to say that?
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@ Doug
“I didn’t say he sustained a concussion. I said he probably reasonably feared he would, or go into a coma or die. His brother also said that Trayvon at certain points was holding his hand over Zimmerman’s mouth and nose and he was having trouble breathing.”
So was his brother at the scene or are we really taking Zimmerman’s account as fact? Someone getting their head banged against a concrete sidewalk, a bloody nose, and having their breathing cut off but managed to pull a gun and shoot someone in the chest. He should be a secret service agent! I mean really. My cousin and I just tried this scenario. He outweighs me by 30 pounds and 8 inches taller than me. I went dead for his nuts. Scenario over. It’s funny this 28 year old dude is trying to paint himself as an innocent do-gooder defending crime over this 17 year old kid. Even if he had stayed in his truck following Trayvon, he would have seen the kid go into the apartment home he was walking to.
It is almost as ridiculous as these four white cops shooting a black undercover cop 28 times because he was driving the wrong way down a one way street. This cop shot 28 times is not facing 80 years in prison. I will give you the link so you can read it if you like.
http://www.policeone.com/legal/articles/5375206-Off-duty-Chicago-cop-shot-28-times-by-officers-faces-sentencing/
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@ cleonette. That is exactly my point. If I decided to ignore everything else I would focus solely on this mans demeanor. The whole case is a complete Hypocrisy.
@ Ace…I never thought about that. It is usually second nature to having the safety on or atleast it is for my family. That is a good question though. If the fight is that severe…at what point did you have time to get the safety off. I need to take a look at the type of gun he has to get more information.
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cleonette
You would probably start out being in shock, as Zimmerman was.
His black good friend in the early days of him and Zimmerman’s first lawyer saying some of what Zimmerman’s side of the story was, weeks into Crump’s and the PR firm’s furious spinning of the media into a frenzy, said Zimmerman cried for days afterwards. He also wanted to apologize to the family but his first lawyer wouldn’t let him or let him speak directly to the press (which is very common or almost universal for a lawyer to do.) Zimmerman under O’Mara wanted to say he was very sorry Trayvon died directly to the parents once O’Mara had taken over as his lawyer as well, and O’Mara tried to arrange that, but Crump said his mother didn’t want that at that time. More Crump spinning to make Zimmerman seem as inhuman as possible. Zimmerman insisted on saying he was sorry for the parents loss at the bail bond hearing, the first time they were in a court house together, and took the stand to do so, which was a risky move for O’Mara to let happen, probably because GZ insisted on it, and also O’Mara wanted to continue to try to humanize GZ.
That strikes me as an extremely prejudiced way of looking at him. Extremely. Why should he set up a legal defense fund for those that want to donate? As well he hasn’t been able to work what with all the death threats and so on and has had to be in hiding somewhere other than the townhouse he is renting, and not feels with O’Mara’s advice that he has to move around to hope to be safe, which raises his living expenses greatly.
Unfairly tarnished. He was called a racist vigilante by Crump and the PR firm from the get go when he has no history of that whatsoever and in fact some black ancestry, grew up with black kids often in his parents home, mentored two black at risk kids and tried to get justice for a black homeless man who was assaulted by a cop’s son.
Conservative bloggers and the media have wanted to correct the Crump lye that Trayvon was a harmless angelic looking little kid (pics taken when he was probably about 12) who couldn’t hurt a fly even if he wanted to, because Crump was successful pushing that image, contrasted with the mug shot (over a minor matter that was dropped) when Zimmerman was at his heaviest and biggest. This went straight to the heart of this case. Crump wanted to and had succeeding in making the black and other public and media think it was simply preposterous that little bitty Trayvon would want to start a fight with big hulking Zimmerman, and could succeed in badly beating Zimmerman up with his bare hands such that he was afraid either for his life or for great bodily injury or a violent felony (aggravated assault and battery in this case).
Hence it was essential for justice for Zimmerman that the truth about not only Trayvon’s size vs. Zimmerman’s, and also that Trayvon had in fact gotten into fights before and in fact initiated them – e.g. he reference punching a bus driver only a week or two before the shooting on his Twitter, conservative bloggers ferreted out. This was hardly irrelevant information, and it wasn’t an unfair smear. Also his sporting a gold lower grill in one photo on facebook before Crump took that down indicates some attraction to at least playing around with a thug image, which also belies little kids Trayvon who couldn’t and wouldn’t hurt a fly just because he felt dissed at being profiled, suspected and followed.
I don’t see anything trying to be even handed in your analysis of this at all. Though so far you’ve been better than most around here, other than Sharina and Deedee.
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@ doug…You did not get my point from that, so let me point that out. If his brother was not there how in h*ll does he know what was going on. He can only take Zimmerman’s word which I am guess you are not taking as fact.
Doug…When you are talking to me talk to me? Do not mention to me what the black community has done to this case and the repeated blah blah blah. That has been my point and sorry if you took it as insulting for me to point that out repeatedly. Every time we get into a reasonable debate of facts you start talking about Crump, Deedee, and the black community. Let’s be clear on one thing…The media messed up this case; not the black community, Crump, or even Deedee. Do you see how frustrating it seems to be to get you to debate with me and not the black community. You are talking to me not the black community. That is why it is irrelevant. Do i keep bringing up the follies of the conservatives media outlets, who are just as guilty I might add?
Your views are based on opinions just as the next person. The evidence that you claim points him as innocent because it was self- defense is a little shaky for him. Still things that need to be explained. Even you yourself noted that he was mainly telling the truth per the police notes. Where I come from partial truth is not “The Truth.” Also did you forget Martin Autopsy report, 911 tapes, 911 tapes of witnesses (none of which completely support Zimmerman’s claim). Deedee’s own account which you keep pointing out shows that Zimmerman was close enough to Martin for him to turn around ask and apparently get into an altercation. Evidence shows that they were on the phone when she said they were (phone company records). Martin was actually found face down in the grass.
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now*
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Sharina—
Of course it was Crump and the PR firm he engaged which was spinning the media furiously. Crump first got this reallygoing by engaging in scooping access journalism with one Gutman of the local ABC station. He got them to run the two incredibly misleading pictures of little kid 12yo or so Trayvon and big hulking looking Zimmerman at his fattest. For you to say this wasn’t the deliberate work of incredibly dishonest sleezeball lawyer Crump, with yes a complicit left leaning media, is preposterous.
They absolutely have not been in this case. There’s no equivalence at all. At first Fox was pretty bad in the racist vigilante angle but they were the first outlet to begin to see there was another side to this and that the media prejudice had been very strongly and maybe unfairly anti Zimmerman’s self defense story.
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Sharina–
Rubbish thinking.
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Cleonette—
Of course I’m not taking his word related to the public through his proxies as necessarily fact, but I’m not automatically assuming he was lying either. Just about his whole story aside from how the fight started was corroborated by eyewitness John, who was the only eyewitness that saw much. It’s corroborated by Zimmerman’s injuries on the back of his head and by his broken nose and bloody face when police arrived.
Also Zimmerman when he was handcuffed, arrested (by most ordinary meanings of the term) and taken involuntarily back to the police station Zimmerman was interrogated by police for more than 7 hours until 3am, all without a lawyer. He walked police through the crime scene the next day. He was questioned by them a third time, again without a lawyer. Sanford police have said his story was consistent in all important details and was consistent with forensic evidence and the eye and ear witness in so far as they could reasonably reach the conclusions they did
Breathing hampered not totally cut off and for a time.
Trayvon’s hands were busy doing damage to GZ’s head.
It’s not implausible that he was able to get his gun at all. He was after all struggling.
Besides it’s what happened. We know from his injuries, the fact that his back was wet and covered with grass, eyewitness John to whom Zimmerman directly screamed help again and again.
What we don’t know for sure is how the fight started. But DeeDee’s statement of what she heard while Trayvon was on the cell phone, and the circumstantial evidence all suggest it’s much much more likely that Trayvon started the physical fight than that Zimmerman did. I’ve gone over the circumstantial evidence numerous times not too far above, yesterday. Not doing it again.
This judge is gonna throw out the prosecution at Zimmerman’s immunity hearing.
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@ Doug…You proved my point with little to no effort. Conservative does not mean not bias. They are just as biased as ABC or NBC or any news outlet you come across. Name one conservative blog that has not been filled with “Martin the thug” comments? How many feel sorry for this him? How many expressed any type of remorse at his death? How many have not stated “he brought this on himself?” I personally word express concern or remorse for any person who was shot and killed no matter what the circumstances.
“At first Fox was pretty bad in the racist vigilante angle.” This makes them different from Crump how? Same bs just different people doing it. Don’t really know Crump and have not read anything on him, so can’t really say much on his tactics.
Is the hypocrisy of this case really rubbish or is that what you want to believe. If you believe something strong enough nothing anyone says will change that even with stone cold facts. I have met many conservative bloggers that some how have this belief that their reporting tactics are more virtuous or that they are only getting to the truth. Pointing out the incorrect behaviors of others, yet still trying to maintain the complete accuracy of their information and all in one big swoop doing the same wrong doings they condemned the others for. Some people call it throwing stones at glasses houses.
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@ Doug…Once again….How does “why are you following me?” prove that Martin started the altercation. What that does prove it that there was never that cheesy line of “You got a problem” No. “Well you do now.” Which proves another lie for Zimmerman. All his lies can not be the truth.
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Deedee–
I said above that he DID know he’d killed him. EMT’s at the scene tried to resuscitate Trayvon but couldn’t. If I ever said in the thread above that he didn’t it was a typo or brain fart. I’ve always thought/known that Zimmerman key he’d killed Trayvon before he was taken from the scene and probably only seconds after shooting him. He may well have taken his pulse.
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Sharina
First of all we don’t know if DeeDee is telling the truth especially as to the exact words used. Even if true, it doesn’t prove that Trayvon started the physical fight but it is consistent with him having done so. It suggests Trayvon is being confrontational. He’s certainly not trying to escape from Zimmerman by running away from him with Zimmerman somehow catching up to him and cornering him as ABC news claimed at one point, probably due to a Crump suggestion. It’s more consistent with being pissed off than scared.
Now you’re being both illogical and highly biases. Why do you assume what DeeDee said was Trayvon’s first words were were the truth whereas what Zimmerman says they were was a lie? DeeDee’s claimed phrasing sounds cleaned up and rather white to me. Zimmerman’s sounds a lot more like what a black teen would say, to me.
We don’t hear squat about DeeDee until more than two weeks after the shooting. She didn’t come forward to police or to the media. In fact she’s never spoken to the media directly. She wasn’t willing to to talk to law enforcement until April, when the special prosecutor insisted. Crump had plenty of time to coach her.
Still both she and Zimmerman say it was Trayvon who initiated interchange between them. Ear witnesses say the interchange had one dominant voice that sounded angry. That I think is by far more likely to be Trayvon, who was much taller than Zimmerman and had reason particularly from the point of view of many you black males to have felt dissed for being profiled, suspected and followed.
Blacks on her and other places just basically seem to refuse to look at the evidence and the probabilities in anything close to an objective and fair minded way.
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@Ace No where does anyone say “all white people” on this blog. If they are they are often corrected. Just because someone says “racist” doesn’t mean every white person on the face of the earth.
The impression I get is that many of the readers do mean “all white people” with an exception given to a few self-hating lapdogs who hate whites more than you do.
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@ Doug…
I sound no more illogical and biased than you.
“Why do you assume what DeeDee said was Trayvon’s first words were were the truth whereas what Zimmerman says they were was a lie?” The same reason you assume and have been assuming that what Zimmerman said is the first words of the altercation.
Last I checked in all your posts….You are and have continued to be the one to bring up Deedee, but now it is funny how when I bring it up it is me being illogical because her information is not supporting what you want it to.One minute Deedee proves Zimmerman is telling the truth and the next you claim she is not credible. Make up your mind because you can not have it both ways.
What ear witnesses Doug? No one new squat or heard squat until the fight started? The 911 callers all heard the same things and that was someone yelling help, then one shot. No news has reported any information on ear witnesses (not that I even look at or listen to the news).
How many black friends do you have? Just because the conservative media has brainwashed you to believe blacks some how have this feeling dissed attitude is crap. Meet a real black man and make that judgement. Hell meet an actual black teenager and make that judgement.
There you go lumping all the blacks in here into one big stereotype. I have been objective to a lot of things, but your idea of being objective is to ignore the facts or try to make excuses for why it does not fit the way you think it should. I never believe Zimmerman was racist….My Mexican husband did. I was very objective until I heard the 911 tapes and then I started wavering to Martin’s side. It was the bond hearing that sealed my decision to side with Martin because Zimmerman lied on something so simple and trivial. Something that without a doubt could be traced back. I began to question what else could he lie about and looked at the evidence in a different light. I got off the fence and too a side.
You sir have not been objective and to pretend you have is hogwash. You couldn’t even debate with me as a person. You just saw me as “the black community.” That tells me a lot. Even now you are blaming the follies of this case on the black community and the liberal media. Can’t even remotely own up to the fact that Conservative blogs are no better. Just because a bunch of people agree with you does not make you right.
If a man beats his wife and his friends tell him “it is ok. she deserved it,” Does that make it right? I love seeing other peoples point of view but that does not mean I am not going to offer my own. It also does not mean my own is less credible than yours because it does not agree with what you believe.
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@ duckduckgoose…I can not speak for all of the bloggers here. I can only speak for myself. All I ask is that you judge me by me and not try and make me out to be all blacks. That is where I tend to get angry. You may not see it, but when one person says something wrong you say the blacks in here.
I am personally not racist. My family and I spent our Christmas eve with my white friends. I have Mexican in laws. My grandfather was Irish/Indian mix who married a black woman. I have Sunday dinner with my Filipino friend and her family. I meet for play dates every wed. with My Chinese friend and get recipe tips from her Chinese mom. I am open to all people, but we love and respect each other because they see me as an individual not me as a group of people. I tend to respect people like that, but people who judge based on the group as a whole I can promise you I will not have respect for those type of individuals.
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@ Doug
Even with all of that, you don’t think Zimmerman at least should have been held at all responsible at the beginning of all of this. For me, even if all the racial tension was not there, I would think there is enough evidence to at least have held him under arrest until all the facts were out. That is the part that really gets me, this was handled very poorly by the police department. Mind you, there was outrage about this before it became national news and it was mostly about how the case was handled by the police. How can you deny that there were not at least some part of racism related to the case? Do you think if the races had been reversed that Zimmerman would not have been arrested? You are very biased if you think things would have happened the same. I referenced a case earlier of a woman attempting to use the Stand Your Ground Plea. No one was injured or killed yet she was arrested and charged with a crime and can possible spend the rest of her life in jail. Let’s be honest here. Something is very wrong!
I can’t help but get emotional because I have family member who are around Trayvon’s age. They are good kids but they make stupid youthful mistakes and decisions. How many teens do you know that haven’t skipped school, tried weed, got into fights, etc? And gold teeth does not equal thug. It’s a southern, black, cultural thing that I don’t expect you to understand because I don’t quite understand that one myself. It scares me to no end that someone would kill them or think they deserved to die because of stupid youthful actions. The kid was trying to get in college. Truth is, he wasn’t looking for trouble that night, it came knocking. I can understand you wanting Zimmerman to have a fair trial but justifying Trayvon’s death by bring up his past is a low blow. Zimmerman prejudged this kid. Remember he said, “These punks always get away.” Trayvon wasn’t doing anything that night and if Zimmerman hadn’t prejudged him to be a burglar, this kid would be alive and you know it.
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“with an exception given to a few self-hating lapdogs who hate whites more than you do.”
Hey , Duckduckgoose, I dont see any self hating lapdogs who hate whites , if you mean other white people on this blog who see through the white racism that permeates some white bloggers on here, they arnt self hating at all. They, and I , are sick of white racism. Ive been disgusted with it most of my life.
White racists are the ones bringing the USA down. They are an embarassment, and disgusting to have to put up with. I hate white racism exactly because I dont hate myself and have been lucky enough to be open in this world to the richnes of all men and women and their cultures
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@ Cleonette,
Couldn’t have said it better myself! I have to wonder why there’s still an attempt to justify the shooting by bringing up the past of the victim, as if Zimmerman had a paper with all of Trayvon’s past actions of it when he saw him as a “punk” who “always gets away” and a police badge to go with that gun.
@ B.R.
The sad part is the fact that to people like them (people who often tout how “free” things are) if you aren’t with them you have to hate whites or be black. If you don’t say mean things about black people, make racist statements, or automatically assume the guilt of black people, your automatically dismissed with a simple “you hate whites”. That’s such a cop out.
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I hear you, Ace, and, by the way, I have a comment in moderation on open thread, but, one thing I said is , you have been making some great points on various comments
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@ Ace
I really don’t understand it. In fact most of the supporters of Zimmerman justify their support using racist theories! This man posted a photo of graffiti on his website that was placed on a black cultural center. He praised it and said keep showing your support! Even if Zimmerman is not racist, he is certainly obtaining the benefits from his racist supporters. It’s funny how they keep pushing the issue of him being multiracial as if POCs will say, “It’s okay that he killed Trayvon, because he’s one of us! Let’s go! Nothing to see here!”
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@sharina
I have no idea why you’re so defensively claiming not to be racist and mentioning all of your multiracial acquaintances as evidence. I’ve never suggested you were. I was simply trying to gauge your opinion of some of anti white comments on this blog which you seem surprisingly reluctant to acknowledge.
@B.R.
So you see whites as the problem. the whole problem and nothing but the problem so help you god? But you’re not self hating?
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@ Doug
“Now you’re being both illogical and highly biases. Why do you assume what DeeDee said was Trayvon’s first words were were the truth whereas what Zimmerman says they were was a lie? DeeDee’s claimed phrasing sounds cleaned up and rather white to me. Zimmerman’s sounds a lot more like what a black teen would say, to me.”
You have effectively given your thoughts on this in a nutshell. Now you use the “talking white and talking black argument”? You have pretty much lost your credibility after saying something asinine like that. How do you know what a black teen would say? Apparently, you and Zimmerman share the same stereotypical views of black teens if what you are saying is true, because a black teenager couldn’t possible speak correct English, right? Why that would be “talking white”. I’m done trying to have a decent conversation with you. I refuse to converse with the willfully ignorant.
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@ Sharina
I don’t even know why you argue with duckduck. After reading some of his comments I have concluded that he is a racist troll and is not here for a purpose that is positive or educational. His claims of anti-white commentors is a wetdream. No one here is anti-white, just anti-racist and if the two are one in the same for him, then that is a reflection on how he views himself. White does not equal racist to anyone who is anti-racist on this blog and for him to even think that, is an insult to the truly wonder people who share his skin tone. He doesn’t even come close to having the moral character of these people. In fact they would be quite embarrassed by him.
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Duckgoofs, I see the problem white people caused , and, I can own up to that. I can see that white people brought slaves from Africa, and, after they were freed, it was white people who discriminated and threw obsticles in black Americans path. It was white people that had racism in its intsitutions, white people that schemed white flight, and caused ghettos. It was white people that excluded black Americans from participating in American sporting events, pretty much in my lifetime this happened.
Can you see white people caused all that? Can you own up to the fact that white Americans are responsible for this happening?
Its because I dont hate myself that I can look at the truth and admit its the truth and be willing to listen to strive for our society to become better. And strive to not think and wrap myself in “whiteness”, something I learned about on here , from people like Brothawolf, Matari and Truthbetold talking about it and realising they made a lot of sence. I dont feel any need to defend “whiteness” and what that and what racism has done.
How it affects mind sets, and rationalisations that are in abundance on this blog from whites who cant see any humanity in black Americans, and, have steretyped and pegged them at every turn.
Its this type of stereotyping and mindsets and disconnects from humanity that set the stage for George Zimmerman to think Martin was a thug and had to be followed, and , lets a lot of white people actualy want to defend him and donate money for him
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no if the races were reversed zimmerman would not be prosecuted much less arrested. let’s talk about the black kids who set a white kid on fire, the supreme courts decision not to prosecute black people for voter intimidation.
white american’s responsible??? zimmerman is not white. racism is not even relevant in today’s world except that equal rights have gone far past what is equal and minority’s like blacks are given preferential treatment for jobs in government and schooling.
stereotyping is around for a reason it works. . yes martin was a thug because he acted and dressed like one. perception is reality. you dno’t know that the people who donated to zimmerman are white because he is not white. gold teeth are indeed a sign of thuggery I don'[t know any well to do black folk who would wear such trashy things.p.s. I have lived in the south all my life. get a grip on reality.
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We are not anti-white, we think you’re wonderful!
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white people??? do you know how many different types of white people there are??? whole lot more than there are of blacks that’s for sure. to lump all cocosoids together is even worse than lumping all blacks together. most of the rest of the black world thinks the worst of american blacks as they are lazy, uneducated(through their own fault and not society’s), unkempt, & have a horrible attitude the whole world owes them something. it’s time black american’s got over slavery it was over 150 years ago. spaniards were slaves for 700 years but we are not crying about that past every day like it’s still holding us back. grab life by the reigns and if you face a roadblock go over, around, or under but stop blaming the roadblock which in today’s society is put there by black people themselves. education is the key to success.
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cleonette–
Yeah whatever. Right.
Blacks talk about how blacks and whites tend to sound different and use different phrasing and even words all the freakin time.
Sure there are some blacks who sound just like whites and some whites who try to sound like blacks, due to rap influence and whatnot on wiggers and others.
However those blacks who sound just like whites don’t generally choose things like no_limit_nigga as their twitter handle, or sport a lower gold grill on their facebook.
The amount of bias which you and every single other black on this thread exhibit in your analysis of the facts in the case, (with most doing almost no analysis but you’ve done some) is pretty astounding. It’s been an education around here for me. Things are way worse than I had thought, most evidently.
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@ cleonette…I have been trying to give DuckDuckgoose the benefits of the doubt. As for Doug he is just walking around in circles. I have done nothing more but throw things he have said himself back at him and he has been trying to puzzle them in to make Zimmerman’s story look correct. All the while telling a trail of lies to keep up with the loops.
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cleonette “No one here is anti-white, just anti-racist and if the two are one in the same for him, then that is a reflection on how he views himself.
How can you be sure “no one here is anti white”? There are an awful lot of people here. Given the nature of this blog it only seems reasonable that some may be.
White does not equal racist to anyone who is anti-racist on this blog and for him to even think that, is an insult to the truly wonder people who share his skin tone.”
I noticed a recent post asking for any and all non whites to provide examples of “white racism”. So that would certainly seem to be the message being sent.
@BR Can you see white people caused all that?
I agree with some of your examples more than others. But I can certainly see that some whites participated in those things. Just as I can see that some other groups have participated in those things as well. One of my main disagreements, however, is with your need to assign collective guilt to whites as a whole. I haven’t seen that standard being applied to others. If someone were to assign collective guilt to blacks for the misbehavior of a few then I have no doubt you would denounce that as racism.
Herneith We are not anti-white, we think you’re wonderful!
Awwww. That’s sweet! 🙂 But Sharina thinks I’m a “douche”. She said so. I think I like you better than her. You haven’t called me a douche… yet.
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Sabrina–
What lies have I told?
That’s right, none.
Your arguments for why Zimmerman wasn’t acting in self defense permitted under Florida law have been very weak and all been refuted by me.
The amount of bias and prejudice as opposed to fair mindedness you bring to this case have been enormous. But then that’s true of every single other black poster on this thread.
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@duckduckgoofs “I have no idea why you’re so defensively claiming not to be racist and mentioning all of your multiracial acquaintances as evidence.”
When did I get defensive or did you assume that? I am going to say assume because in actuality my response was out of sympathy because everyone else was bashing you. Now that you are going to be ignorant then I will no longer give you the benefit of the doubt.
A racist is defined as “a person who believes in racism, the doctrine that a certain human race is superior to any or all others.” So explain to me in what post did I say I as a black person is superior to others. I don’t have multiracial acquaintances I have multiracial friends and family. They are a huge part of my life and I am the type of person who does not invite an acquaintance into my life. Just because it seems as if you don’t know what that is let me define that for you as well “a person known to one, but usually not a close friend.” You have actually suggested several times that I may be a racist, but if you want to start acting dumb I can gladly point those posts out to you as well. The most recent being the incident with JT, who in your opinion said racist things; You stated to me why am I on this board if I myself am not racist and do not have racist views. You also wanted to know if I agree with JT. Secretly trying to imply my racism.
Here is the quote: “So you don’t like polls or statistics. But its okay to make those kidns of racist statements if they’re NOT backed by polls and statistics?”
The you made some what of a sympathetic post about most commenter and I responded in kind to you again. The you go and show your ignorance and you know how the story goes from here. You act stupid and i will treat you that way.
“I was simply trying to gauge your opinion of some of anti white comments on this blog which you seem surprisingly reluctant to acknowledge.” You did not ask me to acknowledge anyone other than Jt in any of your posts and What did I say to you? I stated I do not agree with all comments, but I also stated to you that these comments are about white racists and not about whites in general. Do you need the indicator in the front for you to know the difference? I assume you were a grown man and could tell the difference. I guess not.
I am guess you did not get that post so here it is :
@duckduckgoose…I have also cheerfully chosen to participate in conservative blogs as well, but that is neither here nor there. I see nothing wrong with having an opinion and I personally don’t think I should have to agree or disagree with his statement just so you have your proof that I am a racist, but just so you feel better. I don’t agree that all whites are that way. I do agree that there are racist whites, just as there are racist blacks and non-racist blacks.”
Just to touch up on what I said. I agree what they say in this blog is exactly what a “racist” white person is like.
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@Sharina “Just to touch up on what I said. I agree what they say in this blog is exactly what a “racist” white person is like.”
Okay. But for my future reference, could you describe what a “racist” black person is like?
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@doug
You have told lies. Would you like me to start at the beginning? I could be here all night….We had a conversation regarding that Zimmerman being in shock (this mainly took place between you and Deedee). You told the story of how Zimmerman walked the police through the crime scene the next day. I simply asked you where it was located because I wanted to look over it and view it. You did not know and stated, but i am sure it is somewhere. Ok I looked and looked and did not find it but happily found my information which I felt was not accurate to my words so I squashed it as truth. You proceeded to claim that information as true to another poster. Still could not provide any evidence at all. So where is it? I can conclude that as a lie if it can not even be produced.
In another post you stated how there was ear witnesses that proved what Zimmerman was saying was true….Where are these magically ear witnesses? Again no response on that.
I can go on with some of your layers and layers of contradictory information as well if you like.
You brought up deedee time and time again so I asked you a few questions in regards to her. One minute you paint her as corroborating Zimmerman and when I point one simple thing out you all of a sudden switch to her not being credible. She is either Credible or not. I just found it funny how when it was in agree with Zimmerman you were all in good to bring her up but when it seemed as if she was not she was not credible.
I am biased and prejudice. LOL and all the posters are, but you have yet to put up the proof that the conservative blogs are not. Oh yea you want to get on that high horse of yours right. Did you know that their are actually white bloggers in here? How is the view on your horse? You are a complete hypocrite. Your glass house will shatter.
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@ Doug what did you refute. I can copy and paste those arguments and 8 times out of ten you did not even respond when I addressed things to you in regards to your weak argument.
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@duckduckgoofs…Sure A racist black person to me is one that feel they are superior to other races. Same as a white “racist.” The skin color is the only thing that sets them apart. that is just how i see it, but others may feel different. i think anyone really who terrorize, singles out, stereotypes, etc. simply because of skin color falls into that category for me.
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@ Doug you spent more time contradicting yourself than you did arguing anything. Even after I pasted the laws, you couldn’t even tell me what part of it protected him in regards to self-defense. You just went on with your belief of him being innocent statement, which if that is what you believe then hey.
When you can’t dispute something you start arguing about Liberal media, Crump, and black community biased. You did that several times when you did not have answer for something. I told you several times not to bring that into because we should focus on the issue. I asked for you to provided links or some type of information to what you had. You would not. I am not against Zimmerman out of racism and I told you that as well. This could have been a white kid with a hoodie and sweat pants on and I would have argued the exact same thing. I look for the little things that need to be turned over and to be honest any good legal personnel would be asking the same darn questions I asked. Attention to detail in this case is key because any little thing Zimmerman says can free him or get him further into trouble, but you acted like you knew what Zimmerman was thinking. Like you were in this mans head and for that I questioned you. You had little to no answers and spent time after time walking in circles with your answers. Just like you told one of the posters he was in shock and how he could be in shock for 1 hr to 1 year. Also told a poster he did not know he shot him, yet the minute it is brought up about him walking the police through the scene the next day (still waiting on that information) and not then realizing he had shot this kid…You start talking about you did not say he did not know that Martin was dead.
This is the reason I asked you not one, but several questions over and over again. When I put in an alternative to things that you would actually answer, you gave the bias response of how that could not happen (throws your objective approach out doesn’t it). You would bring in evidence and every time I put in an alternative you would make the witness not credible or go on a rant about media lies and how your sources are so much more reliable. Media is media and no amount of integrity seems to keep them from adding their opinion.
Just because one caters to your own biased opinion does not mean it is right. The only evidence I have presented other than Florida law is the 911 tapes and you are having trouble swallowing that. I would hate to see your reaction when Martin’s Autopsy is presented.
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Sharina—
Completely and utterly untrue. I told you in detail point by point in how it doesn’t bar Zimmerman’s self defense at all, in a long response. Maybe you didn’t understand it, though it shouldn’t have been hard to understand. Now Abagond’s system did have that post in moderation for a long time while letting other shorter of my comments through. So maybe you didn’t go back to look.
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@ Doug re-post it. Solves the problem right there if you have that much detail.
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@ Doug also before we get too far off topic. You stated once that conservative bloggers are objective and such. I am still waiting on that proof. I am still waiting on one conservative blogger that has said something remotely nice or decent or sympathetic about Martin? Since only black blogs are biased and all.
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Sharina—
There’s nothing you’ve argued against a valid self defense for Zimmerman that I haven’t been able to refute.
I completely agree that attention to detail is key in this case and that is exactly what I’ve done.
The last part of what I quoted is absurd. I have suggested what was likely in both Trayvon’s and Zimmerman’s heads from the evidence. Yes I’ve paid attention to what Zimmerman has said through his proxies (his father and brother mostly, I don’t put much weight on what his first lawyer claimed), but I’ve also weighed it against what the physical evidence was, what the eyewitness John said, and also what the Reuters long article had to say about Zimmerman’s pattern of conduct when calling in other suspicious characters to the police and sometimes following them. He’d never started any fight with any of the others and in fact had never questioned any of the others. Then as likely here, he just tried to keep them within sight, but not always being able to do so. What Zimmerman was primarily frustrated about in is police call It sounded like from the tone of his voice and what he said was that he’d lost sight of Trayvon, leading him to worry that police wouldn’t be able to find them because he couldn’t tell them exactly where he was, I think. Am I absolutely sure of that, no, but it’s plausible and consistent with how he’d acted before in his neighborhood watch capacity.
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Sharina–
Another long response to you in moderation.
Anyway look upstream. I did respond to you post quoting certain provisions of Florida’s self defense law in detail point by point but Abagond’s system held it in moderation for a very long time.
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Sharina–
Here:
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http://www.freep.com/article/C4/20120405/NEWS07/204050441/Night-of-Trayvon-Martin-s-killing-filled-with-conflicting-reports?odyssey=nav|head
Probably one of the most thorough mentions of current evidence I have seen. I would like to have the times (phone calls) verified but taking the article just as… Now I’m wondering how did Martin and Zimmerman meet back up when 3 minutes passed, Zimmerman finally ending the phone with police after Martin is seen running. Either Zimmerman continued to follow Martin (possible) or Martin back-pedaled to Zimmerman (possible). Martin’s girlfriend never mentions him 1)hiding from Zimmerman or 2) going back to see if Zimmerman was gone. However, both are possible. So many questions ><.
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@ Doug111,
You are a racist who is trying to twist the case into a justification for your view points. Your not trying to honestly examine the situation, you stopped doing that the minute you decided to dismiss everyone who disagrees with you by their race. If people here are “biased”, you are definitely among the worst of them.
The fact is, you think that bias against blacks is justified and normal, so you don’t consider that strange. You think that’s being “truthful” or “objective”. You, however, can’t handle anyone disagreeing with you who don’t share your prejudices, so you just dismiss them.
@ Sharina,
You’ve got the patience of a saint. It has to get tiring repeating the same argument.
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@Doug Ok found your post so let’s analyze it:
“Doug1111
Sarina–
The way you don’t distinguish between parts of Florida statue you are presumably quoting and your commentary makes it hard to read.
76.041 Use of force by aggressor.–The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
This can be interpreted many ways considering that Zimmerman could have been arrest for simply detaining Martin without any legal cause to do so. He could have been seen as in the process of committing a crime by detaining Martin.
There is no evidence whatsoever that Zimmerman was detaining Martin in any way. Further the Reuters article I linked not far above (which involved a good deal of good ole fashioned reporter shoe leather, in interviewing his neighbors, etc.) says he’d never done that before with any of the other suspicious looking characters he’d phone into police.
Further it can’t be interpreted in the way you’re doing. Detaining someone is nowhere close to being a forcible felony. That portion of that statute is completely inapplicable.
—- With all do respect this does not explain anything. A forcible felon by law is treason and any felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against a person. This can be an assumption as no one knows what Zimmerman said or did to start that fight. If there was a threat would Martin not fight back? You proved nothing this could go either way. You have said countless time as have I. No one knows who started that fight and how it started. For all we know Zimmerman could have had that gun drawn.
“If Zimmerman started the fight though, then the stand your ground part of Florida’s self defense statute isn’t applicable, though since eyewitness John’s statement to police and no doubt future testimony in court corroborates that Trayvon had Zimmerman pinned to the ground on his back (while continuing to beat him repeatedly in the face and smash his head against the concrete as he screamed directly to John for help), Zimmerman had no option to flee.”
—This also proves nothing in Zimmerman’s self defense. John did not see who started it and neither did anyone else. I have never refuted that Martin was not fighting Zimmerman back. Hell what reasonable person would not if they felt in danger?
The lead investigator for the prosecution admitted to the court on the stand during questioning from O’Mara that the prosecution has no evidence as to who started the fight or to rebut Zimmerman’s claim, which I have argued his highly plausible for reasons I’ve given, that Trayvon did.”
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@ Doug
Your unhealthy obession with this case must be tiresome for you and your mate. Why don’t you take the night off and have some wine?
It might relax you and ease your breakdown.
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@deedee7789
That is a valid point and it is not a sure win for either side because no evidence fully supports Zimmerman and none fully supports Martin.
The one things out of all of this that tells me if Zimmerman can lie about this he can lie about anything is that Zimmerman stated he was not aware of Martin’s age. He stated he believed that Martin was a little bit younger than him. Zimmerman is 28 years old so a little bit younger than him for me would be 25 or 26. In the 911 tapes…He stated that he believed Martin to be in his late teens. That is 17 to 19 for me.
Also at the end of it why did he just not meet police at the mailbox. He made the decision not to and told the operator to have them call him and he will tell them where he is.
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haha Truthbetold, I see where you are going with Doug having a nice drink of wine….
Duckduckgoose, how many times have I seen sweeping statements about “black people” by the various race realists on here ?
And, you really have to understand this, implicating “whiteness” is not implicating all white people. White people did create racism, and like you said, there are things you have to agree with what I said happened.So, what is our responsibility in this ? You see, this “whiteness” concept is passed down to new arriving whites and to any people coming in so they start to develope stereotypes of black Americans that arnt true.And media feeds it to death. So, people like you and me who happen to be white, should start listening to our black American colleagues and start condemning this “whiteness” concept. Right? We know that we whites have big responsibility in creating all this so we have a big responsibility in pitching in and fixing the problem we created and then start to join our race, the “human race”…I never concemned all white people, I just genererlised like everyone else and condemn “whiteness” and “white racism”
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@Sharina
Exactly. It is weird for him to not lead the police to him. It is like he didn’t WANT police to do their jobs since “they always get away” according to Zimmerman. Also, isn’t also strange that in Zimmerman’s father account he is reaching for his cell phone after answering Martin’s “question”. Why wouldn’t he keep his phone in his hand at all times? Every little detail just makes Zimmerman seem more dishonest to me..
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@ DeeDee,
Great point there. I am curious about this myself. A lot of inconsistencies there.
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doug , your determinatino for truth & justice are to be commended . the racist are the ones who are trying to twist things with no fact into making it seem like it’s ok to ignore your perception for fear of offending an offensive group of people who think gloryfing thuggery is ok. the facts are coming to light every day that martin was indeed a criminal who was more than likely casing peoples homes for burglary. a normal member of a neighborhood does not dress out of the norm for that neighborhood & assimilates to the norm. which in that neighborhood would not include baggy pants , a hoody , or gold teeth. these are all things that are part of the costume of a criminal. perception is reality so if you know that’s how society percieves that uniform to be. so if you don’t want to be followed or prfiled as a thug or criminal don’t dress like one.
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Circusboy,
First of all, no group of people think thuggery is okay and that includes blacks.
Second, that statement alone indicted Martin to the role of a thug even though he clearly wasn’t armed or the cause of his own death.
The “facts” as you call it of Martin being a criminal is nothing more than the usual racist mentality that criminalizes black men based on appearance alone and nothing more.
Your “dress code” on what constitutes as what a criminal looks like is not only racist but just plain stupid. Criminals wear what they want to wear. For instance, mafia members and corporate crooks wear three-piece suits. White supremacists wear Nazi gear and hoods, and biker gangs wear leather branded jackets and jeans. In short criminals come in numerous apparel, not just the kind your brilliant mind can come up with.
To be honest for a guy that claims to have many Ph. Ds, you sound like you could barely pass a blood test.
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@ brothawolf:
lol! Circusboy9010 aka Miguel Miquel’s doctorates are legit…in clown college. 😀
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you don’t have to tote a gun to be a thug. again perception is reality. if I saw him I would assume he is armed too. the facts have nothing to do with racism. you evedently have not been next to an open dictionary in quite a while. appearance means everything . again perception is reality. if you dress what society percieves to be a thug then you are one in the eye’s of society. yeah and his actions walking around in the rain late at night when he should have been at home doing homework not casing peoples homes (walking around with no purpose of being there) .
the roofers in the area noticed that every black kid they say hanging around doing nothing productive(not even playing stickball or anything kids normally do) were the ones police found stolen items from break ins in the area. I call them like they are instead of trying to be politically correct and ignoring prima facia evidence. however for the record I know people with phds who can’t even make a phone call or check email.
“dress code” we all have one. yes there is a certain way every social group associates with eachother and dressing alike is one of the most powerfull one of them. you will not see a banker wearing a tshirt shorts & birkenstocks to work . nor will you see a welder wearing a miniskirt. however the grup of young black thugs wear gold teeth, baggy pants , & hoody’s . how do I know this to be true? I drive taxi on occasion and keep alive by knowing the real difference. it’s called common sense and if you used a little more of it you would see that things are not as you were told there were from the beginning . I know it’s hard to admit you are wrong and easily led astray by the media . your smarter than that I know you are. if it were known for a certain fact that all of or the majority of break ins were black teens then profiling one is not a crime nor wrong especially when identifiying himself as such by dressing as one. walks like a duck quacks like a duck it’s not a dog. perception is reality. nothing else matters and is a load of horse shit being sold to you by people who would love to gentryfy your neighborhood too so they can sell to richer folk.s when you sell. I’ve seen police departments move criminal elements into an area to depress the property values with crime buy all the property and sell high. trayvon is no angel and was probably a criminal. I blame his parents for allowing him to dress like what is known to be gang wear. I blame the whole black society for glorifying violence and criminal activity with the hip hop culture. yeah it was the whole black culture who is responsible for this. perception is reality. don’t wear a hoodyy in a gated community and yiou won’t have people bugging you asking what the fuck you are doing there , which is their right. however it is not someones right to attack anybody for being asked what they are doing there. all you need do is say hey I live at such and such address and the person moves on.
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Sharina Sure A racist black person to me is one that feel they are superior to other races. Same as a white “racist.” The skin color is the only thing that sets them apart.
I agree with you in spirit. But I don’t think superiority and inferiority are what determines racism. Suppose an alien came to earth who really was superior to us in every way. Would it be “racist” to consider us inferior if we really were? On the other hand, would it not be racist of us to resent them for their superiority? I think it equally likely either group would be racist against the other.
In my opinion, feelings such as bitterness, hatred, jealousy, contempt, prejudice, etc are what determine racism. Not whether one thinks him/herself superior or inferior to another. One who considers him/herself superior could just as easily feel compassion as contempt. And one who considers him/herself inferior could just as easily feel admiration as jealousy.
What do you think?
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@ Duckduckgoofs,
The problem with your analogy is that,racist whites are not those “advanced aliens” who have no choice but to see us as inferior because they truly are superior. They’re average people who think they’re better because they have lighter skin than someone else. They have nothing that their “inferiors” would want to be jealous of or hate them for, they just insist on causing a divide by maintaining that status-quo. Disliking someone because they demand you live according to their notion of racial hierarchy is not racism.
Racism is based on a feeling of superiority (this is according to definitions as well as personal testimony), and those other feelings of hatred and contempt are just a symptom of it. Someone has a right to feel bitter if they’ve been discriminated against for all of their lives. They are not racist for disliking the people who’ve decided to do those things to them.
@ Brothawolf,
Wow. Doug is the paragon of truth and justice now? I find it strange they associate prejudiced attitudes with anything true or just.
I don’t know why it’s so hard to figure out. We aren’t required to wear a dress code to walk around a neighborhood, and that attire is not “thug” attire, it’s teenager attire. Despite what they think, no, they can’t just justify black teens getting killed by what clothes they wear. That’s not only stupid, but totally irrational.
I also love how they claim that black people love “thuggery”, as if every black person in the world agrees with violent crime. I guess all white people love being angry, since so many white kids love to to listen to “angry music”.
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@circusboy9010…
i have asked you this before but I guess reading is not your strong point. Zimmerman described Martin’s attire as a hoodie and jeans or sweatpants. Explain to me how that is thug wear?
It is so sad that you can make a whole run on sentence and not make one point at all. You have no facts because if you did have anything you would be able to properly argue it.
If you are going to support Zimmerman at least get your information correct. If I was Zimmerman and reading these boards then I would proudly say “Is this the dipsh*t that actually supports me.”
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@duckduckgoofs…That is an interesting concept to ponder. Once again I am going to speak for my self on this as I can not speak for everyone.
The thing in the Alien scenario is what would make then superior? To me superiority is a frame of mind just as inferiority is. Think about all the Alien movies you may have ever seen. If those humans laid down to the laws of the Aliens then what would they be? They would be slaves, subservient to an alien race. Instead in each of those movies they fought back. They proved that they are worth being respected by those aliens. So maybe they had superior technology and education, but what they did not have was a heart. The compassion and strength to see these people as beings worthy of respect. That underestimation is always usually the death of the aliens in those movies to.
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Them*
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@Ace The problem with your analogy is that…
There was no analogy. It was purely hypothetical. That’s why I used aliens.
Disliking someone because they demand you live according to their notion of racial hierarchy is not racism.
I’ve heard that before. The thing is, some of those saying it are just mad others won’t live according to THEIR notion of racial hierarchy.
Racism is based on a feeling of superiority (this is according to definitions as well as personal testimony), and those other feelings of hatred and contempt are just a symptom of it
I’ve explained my opinion. You can disagree if you like.
Someone has a right to feel bitter if they’ve been discriminated against for all of their lives. They are not racist for disliking the people who’ve decided to do those things to them.
I don’t know you and I wasn’t there. So I don’t know if you have a right to be bitter or not. But people can usually find a reason to justify a grudge. Just remember this – Hatred corrodes the vessel in which it is stored.
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@Sharina The thing in the Alien scenario is what would make then superior?
What makes us superior to insects? I can tell by the rest of your comment that you’ve personalized the example. As I told Ace, it was purely hypothetical. I was using it to illustrate abstract concepts.
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@ duckduckgoofs…
“Suppose an alien came to earth who really was superior to us in every way. Would it be “racist” to consider us inferior if we really were? On the other hand, would it not be racist of us to resent them for their superiority? I think it equally likely either group would be racist against the other. ”
What would make them superior? That is the point you are missing in my post. This is the point you keep missing and that is messed up thinking. It is completely racist for someone to think they are superior. You want to say they are superior, but how are they superior if you do not even know what makes them that. What makes that supposed Alien different from humans other than their appearance? These are questions any racist should be asking themselves.
Resenting someone is not racist, especially if their is no real superiority other than what is in someone’s head. The humans in your scenario would have to acknowledge that the Aliens are superior for one. If they don’t then they would not be resenting them for that.
To break away from you scenario. Blacks as well as some whites have come to the realization that their is actually nothing that makes them more superior than the other. The best example of the mindset I can give you is one from my women’s study course I took a few years back.
A white female wrote in a diary stating her utter confusion on why slavery had to end. She believed that the negros loved being slaves and that her family was helping them. She had been raised in a bubble to believe that it was right and blacks liked it as much as she did (again poor mentality).
Even a lot of whites thought they were superior to black until they went to war. Many of them saw that in war they are all one people and one falls they all fall. That superiority fades when you are in less than par conditions and you realize that you are no more superior than the man fighting beside you.
Their are whites that are brainwashed to believe they are superior. They are quick to look for flaws in other races to prove how so much more superior they are. For example…when some whites found out their husbands where sleeping with a particular black slave; They would belittle them and make them do ridiculous things to make them feel inferior; just so that white female can feel she has a one up on that black slave.
We are not superior to insects. You should read the bible.
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@duckduckgoofs
Just a side note. You asked my opinion on the subject and I answered. i am not obligated to answer it the way you want. Now if you want to debate on things then so be it, but do not tell me how I should answer it. The problem is you have a mentality that you tell someone what to do and they should do it the way you want. Every post you make is an answer my way or you are wrong response. I am not here to pacify you answers if you want that then go to a board that tells you what you want to hear how you want to hear it.
With that being said do you want to hear what I have to say or do you just want to tell me how to respond without having to address the context of what I said?
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@ DuckDuckgoofs
“There was no analogy. It was purely hypothetical. That’s why I used aliens.”
Fair enough
“I’ve heard that before. The thing is, some of those saying it are just mad others won’t live according to THEIR notion of racial hierarchy.”
But why does there need to be a hierarchy? That’s the question people here are asking. A hierarchy based on race is unfounded, the only true way is a horizontal relationship (that’s my career talk coming in). Believing that white people are just people and shouldn’t be elevated above all others based on their skin color? That in itself is not racism.
“I’ve explained my opinion. You can disagree if you like.”
Well the great thing about “opinions” is that your not entitled to them being treated as “right” just because you feel that way. That’s where personal experience and proof come in. You just said that racism wasn’t about elevating one race above another, which is directly contradicted by real life experience and definitions of the term.
“I don’t know you and I wasn’t there. So I don’t know if you have a right to be bitter or not. But people can usually find a reason to justify a grudge. Just remember this – Hatred corrodes the vessel in which it is stored.”
Correct. It’s not really something you would have an accurate perspective on, especially since it wasn’t a “there”, it was a lifetime. Also, it wouldn’t really be up to a person who thinks in racist terms to decide whether or not someone else is justified in their feelings on the subject. I do not think the experiences of a victim of racism are there just to excuse a “grudge”. People don’t look at white people and think, “Gee, I really hate whites, and this one is racist, so now I have an excuse to hold a grudge!”
I’m just going to say that putting yourself on a pedestal and using your skin as an excuse to degrade, attack, and look down on others is not the same as being mad at that person who put themselves up there and acted that way. One form of “hatred” is unjustified and unfounded, the other exists purely because of the first, and would not if people weren’t being antagonized.
And you don’t need to give “advice” on what “hatred” does when right up there you’ve said racist things. That’s about as wrong as a person who made homophobic statements telling a gay person what to feel about the homophobia they’ve felt all their lives. It’s honestly a little insensitive. Talking about racism and seeing it as a bad thing is not the same as “hating” anyone.
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@Sharina
Just a side note. You asked my opinion on the subject and I answered. i am not obligated to answer it the way you want.
That’s true. But neither am I obligated to agree with your opinion.
Now if you want to debate on things then so be it, but do not tell me how I should answer it. The problem is you have a mentality that you tell someone what to do and they should do it the way you want. Every post you make is an answer my way or you are wrong response. With that being said do you want to hear what I have to say or do you just want to tell me how to respond without having to address the context of what I said?
I didn’t tell you how to answer it. I’m more than willing to have a reasonable discussion. But I don’t want to engage in an emotional and personalized argument. The last time we disagreed you called me a “douche” and started cursing. So this time I backed off.
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@Ace “But why does there need to be a hierarchy? That’s the question people here are asking. A hierarchy based on race is unfounded, the only true way is a horizontal relationship (that’s my career talk coming in). Believing that white people are just people and shouldn’t be elevated above all others based on their skin color? That in itself is not racism.
I think you misunderstood my response. I wasn’t saying there should be a racial hierarchy. I was observing that some of those complaining were doing so merely to promote a racial hierarchy themselves ie affirmitive action, etc.
Well the great thing about “opinions” is that your not entitled to them being treated as “right” just because you feel that way.
Neither are you. The rest of your comment was just a meritless personal attack.
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@BR
BR how many times have I seen sweeping statements about “black people” by the various race realists on here ?
I don’t know. Did you agree with them? No. You probably called them racist. So why would you think I’d agree with your sweeping statements about whites?
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@duckduckgoofs
That is were you have poor mentality. I am not asking you to agree and not one post have I done so.
Do you even realize why I called you a douche? You have seriously got to be kidding me. I called you a douche because you were trying to take my words and make them out to be something they were not. Listen just because you are a racist or race realist does not mean every other person is one or even agree with your ideology. It is like most people with that mentality stroll black sites look for ways to confirm their insanity. Ways to justify their behavior. I personally believe anyone that claims to be that much superior should not have to do such things. If race realist are the all great things they claim to be that would not have to do that.
When it all comes down to it, you still can not tell me exactly what it is that makes you superior. If we break down the hierarchy of whites, do you realize that white Europeans feel they are superior to white Americans? Are they right? If you want to quote statistics and crime reports then so be it, but that proves what? If you are biased then you are going to look for statistics that prove what you want to believe. It is your perception of things and nothing anyone says is going to change that. If I got a report that says black kids out scored white kids, then you would refute it and call it biased all day long.
Hell where I live whites go to jail every day. I see it on the news, yet reports still claim blacks are committing the majority of crimes. The biggest problem in our area is Meth heads. Just like a few years ago the news would give full detail of the crime when a black committed it, but if it white you would only hear the crime and never the race or even see a picture of the person. It amazes me how because the scale has tipped a little bit that their are white racist people out there screaming racism and biased media.
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The funny thing is last night I mentioned the term race realist to my husband and he concluded that it was just a modern day term for racist. He told me to stop using it and giving it life.
He also stated something very interesting to ponder. If no minority lived on the earth and all was white. Whites would find someone to try to be superior to. It could be poor whites, whites of different religion, whites with lower education, etc, but the idea of superiority would not change or die out.
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Randy–
I do, and the answer is absolutely not. Asking someone what the are doing around here is not in any way illegal to even the slightest degree. Nor is following them for a reasonable amount of time, esp. at a distance,which is all that we know Zimmerman did. Further according to DeeDee as well as Zimmerman through his proxies, he wasn’t even the first one to speak, Trayvon was.
Both stand your ground and traditional self defense when you’re unable to retreat (as we know Zimmerman was once the fight began, from John’s eyewitness testimony and that of a 13 yo walking a dog) are fully available to Zimmerman.
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Sharina—
There’s no reason to think that except for your great prejudice in this case. He’d never detained other suspicious to him characters he’d many times called into the police in the past in his capacity as a neighborhood watch captain yet so far as we know he’d been armed with his gun then too. Why not carry your gun if you’re gonna follow even at a distance someone suspicious? Why even have a gun if you wouldn’t carry it in such a circumstance. So far as Zimmerman knew Trayvon might have been an armed gang member casing the neighborhood for burglary opportunities.
He could have stayed in his car but had no legal obligation to do so.
Zimmerman says on his call to police that he had lost sight of Trayvon and he sounds frustrated by that, and that so many of those he’s called into police had gotten away because he couldn’t tell police just where they were when they arrived.
I by the way am not at all sure that Trayvon WASN’T casing townhouses for robbery opportunities. There’s no strong evidence that he was, but it does look like he’d been caught with stolen jewelry at school, which was part of the reason for his current suspension, along the baggie containing marijuana residue. It seems pretty strange to have wanted to walk the almost mile it was going and coming to the nearest 7-11 in the hard rain just for one iced tea and one bag of skittles. Maybe that was just his excuse and he brought them from home. But whatever, there’s certain no good evidence he wasn’t on an innocent altruistic errand for his half brother.
This prosecution will be thrown out at the immunity hearing under Florida’s self defense statute.
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Sharina–
I certainly make my share of typos in most of my comments, and drop words and on when typing fast and not editing. That that’s none of those type of things.
It’s also not English.
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the biggest and most important part of stand your ground laws, are that a person should not have to run if they have the option , running shows the agressor(& his/her comrades in criminality.) that the victim is an easy mark, for a later date for (in this case most probable home invasion or street jacking) attack. attack someone and start bashing their head on the pavement?? expect to be killed from self defense. this keeps another murderer off the planet. self defense is not murder.
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http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/04/29/crump-vs-omara-the-apologycondolence-controversy-and-much-much-more-videos/#comment-107545
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@Sharina
That is were you have poor mentality. I am not asking you to agree and not one post have I done so.
No. But you’ve attacked me for not doing so.
Do you even realize why I called you a douche?
Yes. You didn’t like the question I asked.
Listen just because you are a racist or race realist does not mean every other person is one or even agree with your ideology.
Ad hominem.
It is like most people with that mentality stroll black sites look for ways to confirm their insanity. Ways to justify their behavior.
Not that I don’t think it’s an excellent description, you’re just applying it to the wrong group.
When it all comes down to it, you still can not tell me exactly what it is that makes you superior.
I never said I was.
If we break down the hierarchy of whites, do you realize that white Europeans feel they are superior to white Americans? Are they right?
I’ve yet to meet any group who didn’t have some who thought they were superior. And, in my experience, that’s just as true of homo africanus americanus as anyone else.
If you want to quote statistics and crime reports then so be it, but that proves what?
It depends on which statistics and crime reports are quoted.
If you are biased then you are going to look for statistics that prove what you want to believe. It is your perception of things and nothing anyone says is going to change that. If I got a report that says black kids out scored white kids, then you would refute it and call it biased all day long.
Yes, and if you are biased then you may dismiss statistics that disprove what you want to believe.
Hell where I live whites go to jail every day. I see it on the news, yet reports still claim blacks are committing the majority of crimes.
Both of those things may be true.
The biggest problem in our area is Meth heads.
I don’t know if it’s the “biggest problem” but it’s a big problem.
Just like a few years ago the news would give full detail of the crime when a black committed it, but if it white you would only hear the crime and never the race or even see a picture of the person.
That may be confirmatory bias. One would need to compare news coverage to crime reports to know.
It amazes me how because the scale has tipped a little bit that their are white racist people out there screaming racism and biased media.
Are you suggesting that blacks who “scream racism and biased media” are right but whites who say that are “racist”?
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Circusboy (With your kind of mentality, it’s no wonder why you call yourself that. You do belong in the circus.)
First off, perception is reality from the point of view of the individual. Whom you define as thugs could be nothing more than regular people in clothes you believe are thug attire.
Second, you’re right, appearance means everything especially in a society so hung up on looks. In a nation like the United States, white skin is seen as the definition of beauty, intelligence, and purity while black skin is seen as the skin of ugliness, stupidity, and deviousness. That is the core of racism, and you believe in it, which makes you a racist.
Third, black kids were hanging around. Big deal! What’s wrong with that? Is it because they’re black? And for the record, I don’t buy that “they stole items” bit. Even if it were true, you, like a typical racist, are trying to make it seem that’s what black people, and only black people do. You make me sick.
Fourth, you said “trayvon is no angel and was probably a criminal. I blame his parents for allowing him to dress like what is known to be gang wear. I blame the whole black society for glorifying violence and criminal activity with the hip hop culture. yeah it was the whole black culture who is responsible for this.”
You said he was probably a criminal? How so? Can you prove it without going to a racist or right-wing website? No. And how dare you blame his parents for his own death! How dare you think black people glorify violence and criminal activity, and thus, are responsible for his and other deaths of black people all over the nation!
I blame GEORGE ZIMMERMAN! I BLAME GEORGE ZIMMERMAN!
You know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about black people and what we do, say, or think. I’m willing to bet that all those stories about black people doing all sorts of dirt are nothing more than lies you came up with in a span of one minute to try demonize the black people here into guilt for being born black, just like a typical racist that you are.
You are a heartless, senseless troll who should be ashamed for those statements. You make up stories about your numerous Ph. Ds, travels across the country, and positions to cover up the fact that you haven’t accomplished a damn thing and probably have committed crimes in the past like stealing and what not, and you project those inadequacies on black people to hide your guilt.
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@duckduckgoofs…I told you why I called you a Douche and you dismissed it and said it was because I did not like the question you asked. I am going to answer it one more time and then we need to actually move on. I called you a Douche because you were trying to imply I was a racist simply because I did not chastise Jt for what he said. I further went on to tell you how he is a grown a** man and it is not my job to tell him he is right or wrong. Same way I have treated you have I not.
“Not that I don’t think it’s an excellent description, you’re just applying it to the wrong group.”—Please so tell me how I am applying it to the wrong group? Or perhaps I would say the wrong person if you are not like that. I have seen several individuals under the cloak of equality do this and then change position when they can not plan the seed of insanity.
“I don’t know if it’s the “biggest problem” but it’s a big problem.”—I was actually referring to that being a big problem in my area.
“That may be confirmatory bias. One would need to compare news coverage to crime reports to know.” On this I can agree with you because again this is my area specific, but I have also seen others mention this in other chats as the case in their area. This is also something that happened in the past because as of now it does not matter what color you are if you commit a crime then views are given full detail.
“Are you suggesting that blacks who “scream racism and biased media” are right but whites who say that are “racist”?”—No, in all honest the whites that I have see do it are racist and I have only seen it done in chats because the white individuals in my area are equal about all things. The way they see it is that if that person commits a crime they want to know who it is and because of a collaborated complaint from the community I believe that is what made our area news more fair. I personally don’t think everything is racist and blacks that use it too freely are wrong, but I feel the same about the wave of racist whites that are using it on blacks are equally wrong. I think that when you are racist no matter what color it blinds you to your own follies.
“Yes, and if you are biased then you may dismiss statistics that disprove what you want to believe.”—As I stated earlier and I have stated several times, I don’t follow statistics. I learn from my real life experiences. Books and numbers can not teach you everything and people who hold on too them like the bible find themselves in positions not to get to know people and reach out to others just because they are cool. They make them a statistic and never find out the merits of the individual. I have stated all statistics are biased and I stand by that.
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@ duckduckgoofs…I also stand by the bias that I have seen in the media against blacks. It was biased because it would give pictures, details of the individual, where they are from, etc; Where in cases of if it was white they would not show the picture or disclose the name. They would only say that a white male was arrested today on charges of blah blah. Do you not think that is biased? I think it may happen more than you realize because I have been on other chats who have mentioned this as well. I also think that racist whites are the one’s harping about whites in media and how it is biased. They will only stop harping about biased media when it goes back to the way it used to be.
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Sharina—
You wanted to know a source for my statement that Zimmerman walked Sanford police through the events leading to the shooting. This Orlando Sentinel article isn’t where I first say it but they do say that’s what Sanford police say Zimmerman did the next day after the shooting:
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-28/news/os-george-zimmerman-evidence-trayvon-20120428_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-evidence-police-headquarters
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@ doug… Please look up poor mentality. If you took time to look up other stuff instead of focusing on Zimmerman we might actually be having a decent conversation.
Also you are once again peddling media crap about Crump. What part of I don’t know or care about Crump do you not understand. It is you who is giving life to his supposed bias, yet has the nerve to come in here complaining about black people and their emotional responses and Crump peddling lies.
Also why are you still circling information I have agreed on in the first place. Are you mental of something? This is getting sad that I have to go over things we already went over so you can feel better about yourself. You are still trying to prove yourself right and you are running on crap for ammo.
“There’s no reason to think that except for your great prejudice in this case. He’d never detained other suspicious to him characters he’d many times called into the police in the past in his capacity as a neighborhood watch captain yet so far as we know he’d been armed with his gun then too. Why not carry your gun if you’re gonna follow even at a distance someone suspicious? Why even have a gun if you wouldn’t carry it in such a circumstance. So far as Zimmerman knew Trayvon might have been an armed gang member casing the neighborhood for burglary opportunities.”—I never said he detained other suspects. Not one post of mine mentions that. Hell I have only went on my feelings about the 911 tapes and I have told you that countless amount of times because the other information is too biased. Also I never denied or should not carry a gun but what I did say is that if he has one he should have acted responsibly with that said gun. If he was properly trained I believe he would have. Also what is considered thug wear? Zimmerman even said Martin was wearing and hoodie and Sweat pants, so explain to me how that adds up to thug or gangster attire. That dumb comment along shows your prejudice. You are just as prejudice in this case the sad part is you can’t even admit to it. You are too busy trying to prove you are better to admit it. Sad and once again Pathetic. You are tying to take any thing I say to make yourself right.
He could have stayed in his car but had no legal obligation to do so.—I didn’t say he had a legal obligation to, but would he be in this situation if he had.
Zimmerman says on his call to police that he had lost sight of Trayvon and he sounds frustrated by that, and that so many of those he’s called into police had gotten away because he couldn’t tell police just where they were when they arrived.–I never denied that he did not lose site of Martin. Martin saw Zimmerman watching him in his vehicle, Martin ran, Zimmerman quickly unbuckled his seat beat and chased him. Ok he lost him. What point are you making that has not already been discussed? Hell these are things I have said to you in regards to his frustration. If you check I also told you frustration was reasonable
I by the way am not at all sure that Trayvon WASN’T casing townhouses for robbery opportunities. There’s no strong evidence that he was, but it does look like he’d been caught with stolen jewelry at school, which was part of the reason for his current suspension, along the baggie containing marijuana residue. It seems pretty strange to have wanted to walk the almost mile it was going and coming to the nearest 7-11 in the hard rain just for one iced tea and one bag of skittles. Maybe that was just his excuse and he brought them from home. But whatever, there’s certain no good evidence he wasn’t on an innocent altruistic errand for his half brother.—Look I never attested to Martin being this sweet innocent kid and last I heard the jewelry was not stolen and the baggy was believed to have marijuana. Also who cases out a neighborhood on the phone. Since you claim to know thug mentality so much you will know that that is not normal to talk on the phone and case a neighborhood.
This prosecution will be thrown out at the immunity hearing under Florida’s self defense statute. Once again you on a simple blog can not match Zimmerman’s self defense claim to the law, yet you are certain of how things are going to happen. Wow the arrogance of Mr. High Horse is insane.
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@ doug…I will take a look at it and post later
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@doug I am also still waiting on this supposed unbiased conservative blog you keep raving about.
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@ Doug “Police described one as a re-enactment.” I am guess this is what you are referring to. Did you know re-enactments can actually take place at the police station and not at the crime scene. Especially if the police would like to avoid tainting evidence.
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@botherwolf no I’m not a racist, read a dictionary or 20 like I did. I’m in no way a racist by any definition. all cultures are beutifull , some just have more social problems than others. (like our american blacks who are even shunned by the rest of the black world. I do have friends from every nation on earth from travelling in many circuses. I don’t have any enemies)
perception is also the reality of an entire culture or society not just the individual. most people do share this unversal ting in common by perception, you might heard of it, it’s called realty. I have even talked to many black folk in the locker room down @ the fitness club, they even said trayvon was a thug.
samuel clemens said that travel cures racism,bigotry ,& ignorance. I”m here to tell you something . I’ve travelled my whole life and have been to most every city of any size over 100k many times over for weeks at a time. , & have probably travelled 6 or 7 million miles in my life. I meet people everywhere I go and help as many people as I humanly can when i see someone who needs help no matter what it cost me to do so. I”m no racist sir by any definition. it’s not racist to know that some races have tremendously better ethics than others , like the japanese whoh have the best work ethic .
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It took place at the crime scene. Yes I’m sure that’s what the media, probably the Orlando Sentinel, said several weeks ago.
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@Sharina I called you a Douche because you were trying to imply I was a racist
Actually, I didn’t. But since you’ve made that implication about me should I call you a “douche”, too? I’d prefer if we just agreed not to call each other names.
Please so tell me how I am applying it to the wrong group?
Basically, you’ve appointed yourself the arbiter of sanity. But you’re rulings seem arbitrary.
I think that when you are racist no matter what color it blinds you to your own follies.
That can be true but not always. As they say, “Even a stopped watch is right twice a day.”
As I stated earlier and I have stated several times, I don’t follow statistics. I learn from my real life experiences.
I have no problem considering both statistics and real life experiences. While statistics CAN be biased so can the way one views their real life experiences. But once one has vetted and fully understands both the two are often in agreement.
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@doug I can quote you word for word what the article said. It said re-enactment. It did not say it took place at the crime scene. Now I may be a little Forward to ask this, but do you see how bias works. You may not even realize you are but you actually are in this case. You took re-enactment to mean at crime scene when in actuality it could be in the police station. This does not specify.
@ Ace…I may have the patience of a saint, but trust me it is starting to wear thin.
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Left leaning criminal defense lawyer Jeralyn has done very unbiased analysis of the evidence, but has come to think that it looks like the prosecution doesn’t have much of a case so far. She of course reserves final judgment until all the evidence is out there. See her analysis of the bail bond hearing which involved O’Mara examining the prosecution’s lead investigator on the stand, based on her reading of the CNN transcripts:
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/4/21/22713/4445?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TalkleftThePoliticsOfCrime+%28TalkLeft%3A+The+Politics+of+Crime%29&utm_content=Google+Reader
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“The Miami Herald in its Tuesday editions reported that it had obtained a Miami-Dade Schools Police Department report that showed the slain teenager was suspended in October for writing obscene graffiti on a door at his high school. During a search of his backpack, the report said, campus security officers found 12 pieces of women’s jewelry, a watch and a screwdriver that they felt could be used as a burglary tool….
…Miami-Dade Police confirmed that it had been asked by school police to help identify the property taken from Martin’s backpack. It notified school police that the jewelry did not match any that had been reported stolen….”
http://tampa.cbslocal.com/2012/03/27/police-investigated-trayvon-martin-over-jewelry/
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Sharina:
You took re-enactment to mean at crime scene when in actuality it could be in the police station.
You are correct, reenactments mostly occur at the police station and not at the crime scene, but apparently George Zimmerman did reenact the event at the site of the shooting:
“The day after the shooting, George Zimmerman, according to his father, returned with at least three police officers to the Retreat at Twin Lakes, back to that grassy area where plaintive cries for help had gone unanswered. The investigators, accompanied by someone with a video camera, wanted him to re-enact the events of the night when the two strangers had stood their ground.”
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@ duckduckgoofs… I can completely agree not to call you any names anymore. I am not disputing that my life has not made me biased to reality. A lot of what others experience i can’t say that because here things are just not like that. My husband would say different because he has seen idiots in all races. He has always said he has had to deal with idiots of all races.
@ everyone…I will tell you something in regards to my feelings of Zimmerman’s lack of training and responsibility. My husband got into an aregument with a black guy last year. The guy was actually mad at my husbands uncle, but was taking it out on him. My husband not know if the man was armed and the man was starting to approach him, He pulled up his shirt to let the man know he was armed. Gun was in the holster. Did not remove it once and the man backed off. It is called gun responsibility and if you can’t take responsibility for mistakes that arise when you have a gun….Don’t buy one.
@ Doug. Once again you are raving about how the liberal media is wrong yet you are the only one giving it life.
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@Uncle Milton…Thank you for that information. i appreciate that you were able to provide that.
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Sharina–
Right I’m the only one giving the liberal media’s bias life. Especially until the bail bond hearing that was almost the only message out there. The public’s, especially the black public’s mind was made up early on by them being so easily spun by Crump and the Orlando PR firm he engaged. Spun by lies about what Trayvon and Zimmerman looked like at the time of the shooting, who could do what to whom, what Trayvon’s real getting into trouble background was and so on.
Yes I care about those things. It’s a large part of why there’s been such black anger and in come cases hysteria about this case based largely on misinformation.
Yeah I don’t want to see blacks riot like they did after the Rodney King criminal verdict, when this judge throws out the prosecution at the Florida self defense immunity hearing before the judge only. If they do it will be largely because of the incredible bias, and misinformation the left liberal media spun in persuit of it’s “racist vigilante white great white defendant hunts down and murders black child for no other reason than that he was black and wearing a hoodie and therefore looked suspicious to him” utter horseshiite. LA police say that more than 40 people died as a result of those LA riots 20 years ago.
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Chuck Rudd has been fair. He’s also dug up tons of info. Sure he’s come to have strong opinions on Zimmerman’s self defense claim being valid as more info came in and he dug it up after this post.
http://glpiggy.net/2012/03/31/zimmermans-injuries-werent-fatal-enough/
This conservative blogger has done a TON of digging and has analyzed the evidence in a very detail oriented fashion. Yes he’s come to view the evidence as being STRONGLY on the side of Zimmerman’s having acted in valid self defense but it’s based on tons of detailed weighing of the evidence. Much of his commentariat is more biased but they’re still mostly operating on detailed knowledge of the facts learned mostly at that site most likely. It’s nothing like the fact free of light or extremely selectively considered by all the blacks around here and a good number of far leftist whites here too. He like many of us has come to detest Crump as well, due to all the evident lying he’s been doing and stuff that sure looks like it is probably lying.
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/04/17/update-9-trayvon-martin-shooting-case-latest-developments/
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Where’s Bliff? He is either playing golf or in a drunken stupor somewhere.
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@ Doug,
this is beyond obesssion.
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Herneith
I made him angry on the How to be a Victim Thread. That’s why he’s not here.
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Sharina–
I commented quite a lot on that and subsequent threads dealing with the Trayvon-Zimmerman prosecution. At one point after I’d done so she commented to someone else that 1) I was quite knowledgeable about the facts and issues, and 2) that my views and tentative conclusions where quite close to her own.
The small collective blog being entitled TalkLeft I got some sniping for my views and for commenting too much but she was basically defending me, with a caution or two about minor stuff. Quite a few others agreed with me though.
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@Truth:
I thought that he would be on this thread chastising the negroes as he isn’t allowed on the life experience thread. Hahahahahahaha!!!!
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Sorry immediately above I was talking about Jacylen’s writings about the Trayvon-Zimmerman prosecution.
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@ Doug “More importantly, I think who first approached whom is irrelevant if Trayvon threw the first punch, and Zimmerman sustained a broken nose and the lacerations we saw in the photo released today by ABC News, taken three minutes after the shooting. Whether Trayvon was doing anything wrong before their encounter is not the issue and neither is who spoke to the other first. No one is legally permitted to punch another person because they were asked a question.”—This is not unbiased. If you ponder the evidence then you do not know if Zimmerman was punched first because you do not know how the fight started. Another biased blog or whatever you want to call it. He made good points but he still was not able to separate his opinions from facts. Fact is no one knows.
Still waiting on a conservative blog that shows sympathy or some type of emotions for Martin’s death. Just because you agree with Zimmerman does not mean you have to bash Martin.
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I also stand by the bias that I have seen in the media against blacks. It was biased because it would give pictures, details of the individual, where they are from, etc; Where in cases of if it was white they would not show the picture or disclose the name. They would only say that a white male was arrested today on charges of blah blah. Do you not think that is biased?
I’m sure there are times when they give extended details of both black and white criminals just as there are times when they don’t give extended details of either. To know whether it was biased one would have to analyze the data. I’m sure some patterns would emerge. You might find that one station’s coverage overrepresents crimes involving women whereas another station overrepresents crimes involving men. Or whoever. And then of course the coverage may be different from one area to the next. And in every one of them you’d probably find both whites and blacks who think they’re getting a raw deal. In one area, blacks may be right whereas in another area whites may be. But without an analysis, I don’t see how you can dismiss whites as “racist” for basically making the same criticism you are.
I think it may happen more than you realize because I have been on other chats who have mentioned this as well. I also think that racist whites are the one’s harping about whites in media and how it is biased. They will only stop harping about biased media when it goes back to the way it used to be.
So people have mentioned it to you in chats and now you’re looking for it? Well, it may be true. On the other hand, it may just be confirmatory bias which is a tendency of people to favor information that confirms their beliefs. I’m not saying you’re doing this but most people do. And without data there’s no way to know.
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I can completely agree not to call you any names anymore. I am not disputing that my life has not made me biased to reality.
Thanks. Everyone has biases. I have some, too. In my opinion, those who refuse to even consider the possibility are among the worst.
My husband would say different because he has seen idiots in all races. He has always said he has had to deal with idiots of all races.
I tend to agree with your husband.
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@ doug…I never said you are the only one peddling media biased, but as I have stated several times. I don’t listen to the news. It has been years since I have even looked at the news and half the people you are mentioning that is Liberal media as you claim, I don’t even know. What part of that are you not getting? You are trying to beat into my head about the media this and media that and I don’t and have not even gone by that. On top of that you are constantly trying to throw in his immunity based on Florida self- defense law and yet you still, in your own post, can not even prove how it applies to him.
I have done nothing but gone by 911 tapes and you are still talking about misinformation. The only other information I have used was the public viewing of his bail hear, which last time I checked you still can not refute the lie he told there. It is like beating a dead horse with you. I have stated time and time again. None of that information is a definite for any side, yet here you are trying so hard to I guess convince yourself because you are far from convincing me.
“I commented quite a lot on that and subsequent threads dealing with the Trayvon-Zimmerman prosecution. At one point after I’d done so she commented to someone else that 1) I was quite knowledgeable about the facts and issues, and 2) that my views and tentative conclusions where quite close to her own.
The small collective blog being entitled TalkLeft I got some sniping for my views and for commenting too much but she was basically defending me, with a caution or two about minor stuff. Quite a few others agreed with me though.”
Are you 2 or are you just acting that way? Do you really need someone to agree with you to feel your views are right. You views are your own, but I don’t have to agree with them and it appears that is what you are trying to make me do. Your information is biased (although you still wont admit it) and any one who challenges it you do not sit and ponder well maybe…..you just tell them they are wrong and that it is a sure win for Zimmerman. Ignoring the fact that you do not have all information and peddling the stereotypes. I did not stereotype Zimmerman, but I have constantly made note of people needing to take responsibility for their actions as gun owners.
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@Sharina
Long comment in moderation.
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@ duckduckgoofs..I can say one thing. After looking at Snapped and deadly women, I can say that books and statistics have completely under-estimated women. LOL. If those shows can go for season after season of women killing, then there is no way women are not killing as much as men.
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@Sharina
I must be out of the loop because I’ve never heard of Snapped. Surprising fact, 40% domestic violence cases are women beating men! LOL! I shouldn’t laugh but some women are mean. I’ve met a couple of bunnyboilers that have scared the bejeezus out of me. I ran. haha
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@duckduckgoofs
…D: You have NEVER seen Snapped…Oxygen channel. Watch it O.o.
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http://oxygen.com/tvshows/snapped/ <–Snapped info
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deedee
Thanks for the link. I didn’t realize that show was about real crimes. I thought she was talking about a show like House or Dexter or something. I saw a little bit of one show on youtube where some chick castrated and murdered her dad. I don’t even know what to say about that.
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@ Deedee and duckduckgoofs.
I am scared because some of those women are not currently in jail if I am not mistaken.
@ Deedee thank you for providing that information earlier.
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I am a white guy and yes I do think he should be arrested, but assigning guilt is not the job of the masses. He should be given a fair trial. Personally, I think he was wrong in following the young man and that got him in the situation where he may have had to use the gun in self defence. I think in the end he will probably get manslaughter and spend 20 years in prison. We should leave this up to the attorneys and the joury. Let due proccess do its job.
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@ Shane I can agree with that. I would like to see the courts do their job. I think the most upsetting part it the lax behavior that the police department has on these cases and it appears that this is not the first. People have to take on some responsibility with guns and that is something that needs to be looked into with this case as well. Even with a gun I could never see myself following someone, especially if I think they could be armed or on drugs. And if someone goes by reasonable standards how many people on this blog can say they would do the same.
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@ Shane,
I agree with you, completely.
I want him to be held accountable for taking someone’s life, especially since he chose to follow him with a loaded, usable gun. Especially after being instructed not to do so. If he was really so “concerned” he should have called the cops and waited instead of taking it upon himself to “police” someone who had every right to walk around in that neighborhood unmolested.
I hope that he gets the punishment that he deserves, and I hope the family at least get’s some reprieve considering how painful it is to lose a child.
@ Sharina,
The funny thing about this is that I don’t know any kid who hasn’t been told by their parents to not talk to strangers, especially if they do not have a real badge. Your not supposed to sit still and answer questions about where you live, because that means he could possibly follow you home. Any one in the neighborhood watch would know that.
Frankly, all I want is for people to stop injecting their racism into this stuff and start seeing black people as people who have the right to grieve and want justice, just like they do. No more victim blaming, no more “blame black culture, even though a black man didn’t kill that kid”, no more “blame the parents”. For all of the time they spent trying to smear the reputation of a young man (and save the reputation of his killer), they could have been holding Zimmerman accountable for his actions and this could have been handled appropriately a long time ago.
@ DuckDuckgoofs,
Snapped is a good one, but Deadly Women can be pretty messed up too.
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@ Ace…I agree. The police should handle these cases properly and not just let it go so easily as they have. They have compromised so much in their actions and this is the disturbing part. In those positions you take oaths and if this is a regular thing in this area then law makers need to start taking this very seriously. People are loosing lives and the killers are getting off becasue they claim self-defense. I actually wonder how many cases are clear self-defense and how many are “I got mad; shot someone; claimed self-defense.”
I thought at one time if you shot a person anywhere above the waist it was considered attempted murder and you could be arrested. I remember my husband mentioning it once.
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ace there is nothing to be held accountable for when you are defending yourself against potential death. it does not matter if the person is armed or not, hands can be lethal weapons.
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@ Sharna,
My feelings exactly. I have cops in my family, my great uncle was even NYPD. I think that’s part of the reason this case bothers me so much. Yeah Zimmerman killed Trayvon, unjustly. And he’s been arrested and will be put on trial (hopefully), and while the attempt to excuse his actions has been rather offensive to me, I am more angry at the fact that the police reacted the way they did. I was taught that cops were supposed to protect ALL citizens, not just the ones with the right skin color. The fact that they decided to treat Trayvon like a criminal (since they did this before knowing a thing about him), it just disappoints me. They smeared the honor and reputation of all police officers when they did that, IMO.
I’m also a person who believes that guns can be a necessary part of personal defense. We recognize that a family stuck in a home invasion might thank God they had a gun locked away that someone could get to. But not if your going to treat like like a license to cowboy it up at anyone who strikes your fancy.
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sharna the police did handle it properly according to the states attourney who did not want to press any charges and waste the states time and money on a obvious self defense case, plus the world is less one criminal.
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ace a police dispatcher has no power over a citizen, even if they did the phrase “we don’t need you to do that” is not an order to not follow the criminal. also having a gun is not intent to use it. if this were your neighborhood you would probably be content to have one of these thugs invade your home and kill you because you are afraid to be pc uncorrect and call a spade a spade.
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Circusboy a.k.a. Miguel,
I don’t care about your pathetic attempts to make yourself sound educated and successful.You’re about as convincing as a random guy trying to hook up with a beautiful girl at a bar by telling her complete lies. I don’t buy all those traveling stories, accolades, jobs, and whatever else you’ve accomplished in your own imagination. So, don’t lecture me or anyone else on reality when you, yourself, don’t even know what it means.
Also, don’t tell me that the black folks you’ve met agreed with you about Trayvon being a thug. I’m willing to bet that’s all in your head as well. And if they did exist, that doesn’t mean that he was a thug simply because black people said so. That is the lowest level of thinking imaginable.
One thing’s for sure, you are a racist. Your responses confirm it, and I don’t want to debate about that anymore because it speaks for itself.
Finally, for the record, anyone with a Ph. D or better would laugh at you if they read what you’ve written. They would not take you seriously, and they shouldn’t. Besides, why would someone with several Ph. D’s show up at a blogsite and have comments overflowing with nonsense and grammatical errors. You could be doing something more constructive with your degrees.
But back to the subject at hand, you try to justify Trayvon’s murder at all cost. That is a cruel and horrific response. It shows that your moral compass is malfunctioning, assuming you ever had one. A kid got murdered, but the fault isn’t the murderer or racism. To you the blame lies directly with his parents, the black community, and himself for looking like a thug.
You said black people worship crime and violence. If that were true, we wouldn’t have cared about Trayvon’s murder or the murder of black people across this nation. Abagond, myself, and other black bloggers wouldn’t have bothered writing about his death. Black people would never have tried to stop the violence in the communities, nor would they attempt to get the media to present fair and unbiased images of the black community to society and the world. Members of the black community would not have done anything to the crime and violence that happens across this nation.
Instead, if we did worship crime and violence, we would’ve been pleased as punch that Trayvon got shot and killed just like the trolls–such as yourself–who visit this and other blogs to laugh, joke and try their hardest to justify his death. In other words we would be just like you.
Don’t tell me black people don’t do that because you don’t know black people. Period.
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@ CircusBoy
And Zimmerman had no power over Trayvon. So why follow him in the first place? Also, why call the police if you aren’t going to listen to what your told to do by them?
And no. Because I know that people aren’t “thugs” because they wear a hoodie and loose jeans (like the many young men and women of all races ). You know my nice, country club neighborhood that happens to have young, accomplished black men living in it? I’m more worried about the freaks hanging out behind our houses in the boonies smoking weed (oh, and they’re white!) than the random kids who walk through the neighborhood. Also, you don’t know a damn thing about me and what I”d be content with, so don’t even try to tell me.
I’m not afraid of being “pc incorrect”, because I know that’s just the excuse for the ignorant and the bigots to spout their bile and then hide from the consequences. If you want to truly be “pc incorrect”, then examine the difficult things, don’t just resort to low-effort thinking because it fits your prejudices.
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@ circusboy9010…I have a Bachelors in Criminal Justice and I worked in the solicitors office a year before I left to have my baby. They did not handle this case properly and it is obvious that you don’t know squat about the Justice system.
I also find it funny that you are bold enough to respond to me, yet still lacks the balls to answer my question of what makes him a thug? What makes him a criminal for that matter? Oh that is right you don’t know. So go copy and paste your response from your ignorant websites and eat the sh*t you woke up in.
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Sharina,
Circusboy believes that Trayvon was a thug because he dressed like one. To him that’s all it takes, and that’s why it’s his, his family’s and the black community’s fault that he’s dead.
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@ Brothawolf,
And yet you don’t see him trying to turn mass murder into a white thing.
I wonder if he notices the hypocrisy of calling black culture a “culture of violence” when he sits here making excuses for violence.
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Circusboy is a racist. No other explanations needed. Stop arguing with this idiot. I don’t even know why he is here. He is certainly not wanted or needed here and his words are like filthy rags. He is a waste of space. A disgrace to humanity. He is offended by black skin no matter who is inside of it. I will not argue with him or respond to anything he has to say because his mentality is corrupt. The very fact that he functions is society is amazing to me. It doesn’t take a genius to be a racist; just a bunch of statistics and pseudoscience to support your ignorant views.
The only way this idiot got through life, received an education, and got a job is because his skin is white. Instead of affirmative action, he got “white action”. White action do sh*t like allow us to have a president who got c’s in college but question the intelligence of a president who graduated with honors. White action do sh*t like hire an idiot like Circusboy or some other idiot for a top position and hire a black person for less money to actually do the work. White action does sh*t like believe a kid wearing a sweat suit is trying to rob someone one, so you shoot him, cry self-defense, say you are not racist, but welcome support and money from racist individuals. White action allow racist little sh*ts like Circusboy to excel in life coasting on white privilege and look back and tell all the people who had to suffer because of said white privilege that they need to work hard to get where he is. A black idiot is just a black idiot but in Circusboy’s world, a white idiot can become president. Unfortunately, his world is the world we all live and exist in, so with that said, Sharina, give up. He is not worth the fight. The world would be a better place if his parents had used a Trojan. ~Drops mic~
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what makes him a thug??? perception is reality, dressing like a thug , wearing gold teeth like a thug and baggy pants. not to mention the attitude. I know what a thug is from experience driving them around in my taxi. I seen them beat the living dog shit out of a man , and seen them pimping out whores, & dealing drugs . I’ve been allover this great land of ours and know what I”m talking about lady. I”m not no television watching idiot who thinks they know reality , I live it every day and most likely have even been to your town and sold your parents the cotton candy you ate as a kid.
no cleonette I”m not a racist you need to read a dictionary and see the definition of racist. just because I know our blacks here are low class compared to the rest of the blacks in the world does not make me a racist.
sharina my step mom was a paralegal in the local justice syststem y neighbor a judge , most everybody I grew up with are cops now. I know a few things about justice from the massive amounts of speeding tickets I never had to goto court for. I also know if the states attorney chooses not to prosecute then it’s not a case. self defense is not murder and there was really not enough evidence .
ace any citizen has the power to arrest , anywhere anytime. it’s called citizens arrest. yes anybody has the power to follow another citizen if they suspect they are up to no good. the police dispatcher has no power over a citizen though, and even then “we don’t need you to do that’ is not a command. get your fact’s straight , the talking poiints you are parroting are confusing you and the reall issues here.
no lot’s of kid’s that are not thugs do not wear that attire with gold teeth and walk around aimlessly in the rain.walks like a duck quacks like a duckl it is a duck.
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Circusboy is a racist. Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck. It’s a duck…
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This case should be and I think will the thrown out at the self defense immunity hearing before the judge.
Zimmerman had a right to follow Trayvon. Trayvon had no right to commit aggravated felony assault and battery on Zimmerman which is what he did, just because he felt “dissed” at being profiled, suspected, and followed. That felony assault and battery is why Trayvon was shot and why he died.
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raciss, raciss, raciss.
It gets old.
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Doug, for once I agree. It does get old. Nice to see you agree that racist people should totally get over it. There are always gonna be black, Asians, and Hispanics. We all think racism is old but they just can’t let it go…
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@doug111
Zimmerman had a right to follow Trayvon.
In that case, Trayvon equally had a right to ask why he was being followed.
Trayvon had no right to commit aggravated felony assault and battery on Zimmerman which is what he did, just because he felt “dissed” at being profiled, suspected, and followed.
Considering he is no longer with us I am dubious as to how you have come to that conclusion. Besides, you wouldnt feel ‘dissed’ at being profiled as much as ‘pi$$ed’ that someone is assuming that you are intending to be/are up to no good.
That felony assault and battery is why Trayvon was shot and why he died.
No, the fact that ‘Keystone Rent-a-cop’ Zimmerman didnt do what he was damn well told is why a young life has been lost needlesly.
IF this is indeed what happened. You state this like it is fact but what it actually is is only a representation of your version of the truth where you have cobbled bits together to make a feasible story that fits your own narrow and jaundiced POV. I dont believe this is an ‘open and shut case’ in the way that you would like it to be Columbo…..
I’m sure your ‘much younger’ nubile partner get fed up of you posting absolute tosh on here and neglecting her needs. Why dont you give your arse a rest so your mouth can speak and desist with this nonsense.
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@doug111
Zimmerman had a right to follow Trayvon.
In that case, Trayvon equally had a right to ask why he was being followed.
Trayvon had no right to commit aggravated felony assault and battery on Zimmerman which is what he did, just because he felt “dissed” at being profiled, suspected, and followed.
Considering he is no longer with us I am dubious as to how you have come to that conclusion. Besides, you wouldnt feel ‘dissed’ at being profiled as much as ‘pi$$ed’ that someone is assuming that you are intending to be/are up to no good.
That felony assault and battery is why Trayvon was shot and why he died.
No, the fact that ‘Keystone Rent-a-cop’ Zimmerman didnt do what he was damn well told is why a young life has been lost needlesly.
IF this is indeed what happened. You state this like it is fact but what it actually is is only a representation of your version of the truth where you have cobbled bits together to make a feasible story that fits your own narrow and jaundiced POV. I dont believe this is an ‘open and shut case’ in the way that you would like it to be Columbo…..
I’m sure your ‘much younger’ nubile partner *must* get fed up of you posting absolute tosh on here and neglecting her needs. Why dont you give your arse a rest so your mouth can speak and desist with this nonsense.
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@circusboy9010 “what makes him a thug??? perception is reality, dressing like a thug , wearing gold teeth like a thug and baggy pants. not to mention the attitude.”—As I stated before and choose your words carefully. Martin was not found with gold teeth in his mouth, Martin was wearing sweat pants/Jeans according to Zimmerman, so what part of that says Thug. I wear sweat pants when I go to the gym, walking to my mailbox etc. If you check out some proper information you will find that most Athlete wear sweat pants when they train at times. It is common wear among teenagers in general that are on the football teams. If you agree with your statement then you are calling Zimmerman a liar. Think about that long and hard before you respond.
“sharina my step mom was a paralegal in the local justice syststem y neighbor a judge , most everybody I grew up with are cops now. I know a few things about justice from the massive amounts of speeding tickets I never had to goto court for. I also know if the states attorney chooses not to prosecute then it’s not a case. self defense is not murder and there was really not enough evidence . “—Good to know. Then you also know that speeding tickets is not the same as someone killing someone. AS I stated before if the case had been handled properly, then no matter what Zimmerman claimed he would not have been sent home the next day. He would have been arrested, booked, and sat in jail to await a bond hearing while evidence was collected. Bond hearings can be the same day or the next day depending on how late it is. I never said the states attorney does not have a say in prosecution, but they can have all the evidence they need a still choose not to prosecute as well. For example during my last month in the Solicitors office there was a lady and her husband who robbed the courthouse. They had video evidence and all. The lady worked there and everyone knew her and perceived her to be a good person. They made the decision not to prosecute. The lead attorney also made the decision to step down after much heat from the public.
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@ Doug…It is funny how you are yelling about people calling you racist, but have the never to come in here and make a statement like that. I know you will avoid this as you have avoided a lot of what I have said. What makes you think he felt “dissed.” Oh you did answer it….You know black teens right. How many black friends to you have to know black teens?
Also what makes you think that Zimmerman in his frustrated state did not go to take all efforts to “catch the criminal this time”? You seem to ignore that part because it does not fit into your theory. Heck I have noticed that you ignore everything that does not fit into your theory. Hell in countless conversations you have stated things that made Zimmerman a liar and when you realized that it does then you back peddle. All the while still ignoring that you are biased, yet wanting some respect. I can’t respect any man that can not even own up to his mistakes. Oh yea Its the black community, Crump, and liberal media’s fault you can’t own up to your mistakes.
Doug sit your inspector gadget but down somewhere.
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@ brothawolf
It is funny that he feels that way, but can’t even remotely tell me what thug wear he was actually wearing. Last I checked Zimmerman said he was wearing a hoodie and sweatpants or jeans. He never said the jeans were baggy either. I am just wondering how he can support Zimmerman and call him a liar at the same time.
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@circusboy9010
“ace any citizen has the power to arrest , anywhere anytime. it’s called citizens arrest. yes anybody has the power to follow another citizen if they suspect they are up to no good. the police dispatcher has no power over a citizen though, and even then “we don’t need you to do that’ is not a command. get your fact’s straight , the talking poiints you are parroting are confusing you and the reall issues here.
no lot’s of kid’s that are not thugs do not wear that attire with gold teeth and walk around aimlessly in the rain.walks like a duck quacks like a duckl it is a duck.”
A citizen’s arrest is an arrest made by a person who is not acting as a sworn law-enforcement official.—Now was Zimmerman that? No, so he could not arrest under your theory of citizen arrest. further Each state, with the exception of North Carolina, permits citizen arrests if the commission of a felony is witnessed by the arresting citizen, or when a citizen is asked to assist in the apprehension of a suspect by police.—I don’t think Zimmerman fell into that either.
You have the right to follow, but you also have the right to face the consequences of following. Most people do not know what someone is following them for and if you follow someone that is the risk you take. I can personally say if a person is following me and got up on me, then I would respond by hitting back. Women have gotten rapped, kids kidnapped, and people murdered for making the mistake of letting someone walk up on them and not paying attention.
I believed Zimmerman had to grab Martin personally. I know from my own experience that when I am on the phone and it is raining and I am walking; I tend not to pay attention to my surroundings and focus on the goal ahead. Most people who do the same have gotten grabbed from behind plenty of time because they are trying to focus on the conversation and getting home out of the rain.Just last week I was on the phone, it was raining and I was trying to get the kids inside. (My husband was not home at time). On my last run to get my purse out of the car my husband came up beside me with an umbrella and scared the crap out of me. Apparently he had made it home, parked the car, saw me running back and forth and went inside to get an umbrella for me.
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Demerra—
I agree. But that question which is close to the wording DeeDee says she heard Trayvon demand of Zimmerman, isn’t why Trayvon got shot.
The young life was lost because Trayvon committed aggravated felony assault on Zimmerman by breaking his nose and bashing head repeatedly against the cement sidewalk.
What’s narrow or jaundiced about it? I’ve considered all the available evidence. No one saw the fight begin other than Zimmerman, who’s obviously self interested. But he did speak to Sanford police extensive both the night he was taken back to the police station in handcuffs and questioned from 8pm until 3am. He went with 3 police officers the next day to the crime scene and reenacted what happened and where. He was questioned on other occasions as well, Zimmerman said three times on the bail bond hearing witness stand and the press has sometimes said five times. (Maybe police were counting separate running through the whole story in the same session as a separate time.) His story has apparently been reasonably consistent. (Defendants are rarely 100% consistent with a complicated event.)
Unless Zimmerman turns out to have been very inconsistent about key bits of the story he told Sanford police, he’s gonna walk after the self defense immunity hearing before the judge only.
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Sharina—
I haven’t yelled at anyone on here. I’ve corrected them in calm and measured terms, but that’s hardly keyboard yelling.
The epithet “racist” is thrown around like rice at a wedding these days, particularly at this blog. According to Abagond’s use of it, it’s practically impossible for any white not to be racist, as he’s said himself on some occasions.
I think most people would feel disrespected in that situation. But most wouldn’t slug and then keep beating on someone because of it. But yes, I think you black males are particularly prone to feeling “dissed” when suspected esp. by a non-black.
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@ Doug… I won’t call you a racist, but I sure as heck can conclude you are prejudice. For starters I am not a man. I am a woman as I have stated not once but several times on this board (goes to show how much you are not paying attention to my post).
Secondly..What are you basing your knowledge of black men on? Every time I ask you questions like this you can not even answer it. You have little to no answers to much of anything and you want to come in here on your high horse. Sorry but some of the things you say can be considered suspect to you being racist. You don’t know any black males to even say that they are considered prone to being “dissed.” That is your own ignorance at work. News flashy doug…Movies does not depict the average black man and if you actually met one you would know that. It is still funny how you talk about media bias yet your opinion of blacks is based on the same dumb media bias.
That is equivalent to me saying white people are all racist. That is not true.
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Sharina–
“you black males” was a typo. Meant to type young black males. Sharina is a feminine name. I’ve always thought you were a woman. You sound like a woman as well. You also talked about your husband just above.
Yes I know and have known black males. I don’t currently know any young black males but have in the past.
What a preposterous statement. It’s pretty hard to live in the US and not have ever known any black males. Maybe it can be done in certain mountain west states if one lives and grew up in a rural area. I live in NYC.
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@ doug “His story has apparently been reasonably consistent. (Defendants are rarely 100% consistent with a complicated event.)”
This is what I am talking about in regards to your inconstancy with this case.
” Police have said that his statements where for the most part consistent on all the big stuff.”—Did you not post this? That in itself implied he was lying about some things and here you are claiming he was 100% accurate. Small discrepancies play a part in this as well. It seems that he has told the truth all the way up until how the fight started. It is too easy for him to say Martin started it because it is his words against a dead man. Also how do you conclude his public lie about him not knowing Martin’s age and thinking he was a little bit younger than him? I agree it is fact that he did not know Martin’s age but he thought he was in his late teens not a little bit younger than him.
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Sharina–
That seems much less likely than the other way around for the reasons I’ve given.
I think you just emotionally want to believe that so that Zimmerman doesn’t get off on self defense. Although actually he still could since this isn’t a stand your ground situation according to not only Zimmerman, but also eyewitness John and the 13 yo boy walking his dog. Zimmerman couldn’t retreat since he was pinned to the ground after Trayvon broke his nose and kept smashing his head against the sidewalk.
It would a harder case for Zimmerman though if the judge or jury believe he started the physical fight. Maybe technically it shouldn’t be since it still comes down to whether Zimmerman reasonably believed he was in imminent danger of great bodily harm, a violent felony, or death. But emotionally it would be, and the “reasonably” is a judgment call.
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@ doug….You can live in the United States forever and not ever really “know” a black man. Black males feeling “dissed” went out with the 90s. During the 90s gangsta rap things that kind of behavior would have been in abundance from not only black teens, but white teens who were at the stage or rebelling.
Today most black teens are into the whole skinny jean fashion as most whites are. I like to call it the skateboard look because the jeans are fitted with a little bit of sag. Granted some still wear baggy clothes but it is a fashion not an behavior or attitude. My cousin wears baggy clothes and he actually works 12 hour shifts 5 days a week. If a cop or any authority figure (mostly white ones have) ask him something he answer, but I can tell you that he will not accept that authority figure grabbing on him and skin color does not matter.
I have noticed that all teens will give authority figures attitude, but it is when you grab them that they actually may fight back. None of them like to be touched or handled improperly. Go research that.
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@doug111
Demerra??? I’m not precious about spelling mistakes but I suspect you have done this to get a reaction and cos you felt ‘disssed’ by me – LMAO
What’s narrow or jaundiced about it?
About every comment you’ve made, every so called element of conversation you have carefully selected posted on here and every statement you have EVER made about the Trayvon case – how bout that for starters.
What a preposterous statement. It’s pretty hard to live in the US and not have ever known any black males. Maybe it can be done in certain mountain west states if one lives and grew up in a rural area. I live in NYC.
Those first impressions aye…after all, there is NO way you would actually acquaint yourself with any of these people, even if your paths did cross and circumstances permitted. I pity them if you did actually, your negative perceptions would always prevail and, if they had a mind to, they would continually be spending time trying not to be typecast in your own ‘black people/you blacks do this scenarios’ *smh*
I never ever realised that fear could manifest itself in such a way where a grown ass middle aged man would take relish and glee at re-living the murder of a young person.
Please read and digest ‘Give your arse a rest so your mouth can speak’ I cant dumb it down for you any more than that. Oh, and if you need a translation, just ask!
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@ Doug “The young life was lost because Trayvon committed aggravated felony assault on Zimmerman by breaking his nose and bashing head repeatedly against the cement sidewalk.”
If it was self-defense Martin would only be charged with that if Zimmerman decided he did not want to pursue a fight and back down and Martin would not let him. Until you can prove Zimmerman did not start that fight, then stop claiming that Martin was participating in aggravated felony assault. As far as anyone know that was self defense for Martin and it was just as reasonable as Zimmerman the stalker shooting him.
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@Sharina
That was a good point about teens fighting back when touched. If I remember correctly (I will have to double check) a 911 caller mentions hearing loud voices like a argument and several other witnesses mentioning seeing (or maybe hearing I need to check again) a scuffle. It makes me wonder if more arguing occured after the Martin’s phone disconnected. Also, it is possible that a “shoving match” happened like what the girlfriend mentioned. Either way contact was made and it probably escalated from there. I’m sure the big evidence reveal will make things more clear but it does feel like maybe we shouldn’t know about the evidence anymore. I just want to know if Zimmerman will be convicted or not. But I suppose the public has the right to know everything.
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comment in moderation.
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Sharina—
No it doesn’t necessarily imply lying at all. Often some things are a little fuzzy in a struggle. The process of trying to remember something accurately can involve a certain amount of filling in the blanks between things you’re sure of. As well you can remember something later that you didn’t remember at first or the other way around. Interrogators know this. Big inconsistencies are something else and usually have a different character to them.
What is very unlikely to be fuzzy is who spoke to who first and who hit who first. If GZ changed his story on that it would be suspicious. The exact words might be a little fuzzy though.
If Zimmerman didn’t say anything about his gun being visible or maybe visible to Trayvon and he feared it became so in the course of the struggle which is when he pulled it out and shot Zimmerman, the first couple of times he went through the story, then I’d doubt that that is why he shot Trayvon. That wouldn’t make me necessarily believe that Zimmerman wasn’t afraid for his life or great bodily harm or that he was lying about everything else. He could simply have been fuzzy about that. A lot would depend on if he seemed to be trying to tell the truth or was nervously trying to keep his story straight – which is one reason cops often videotape interrogations. If he said his gun had he feared become visible the first time through his recounting, and then another time said that Trayvon had seen it and was reaching it, well that could be that Trayvon saw it before Zimmerman shot him, and GZ wasn’t sure exactly when he saw it, before GZ went for it, as he was doing so, or only when GZ had a hold of it, but he knew or very much suspected that Trayvon could see it if he looked there. He might have remembered that differently in fact, in the filling in the dots kind of way the mind tends to work, esp. in highly emotional situations.
That doesn’t show that Zimmerman was lying about that. I’ve said many time why I think it far more likely that Trayvon started the fight and no one’s refuted each or any of my reasons, you and other just say I claim to know for sure what was in Zimmerman’s head, which is ridiculous.
What he said on the stand was he thought he was “a few years younger”, and on the recorded police call he estimated “late teens”. He might have thought Trayvon was 18 or 19 on the phone, when looking at him from a distance with his hood up, he was 6’2” after all, and might have thought somewhat older than that when GZ was looking at him up close with a mad or fierce face while getting beaten up by Trayvon. You’re really clutching at straws with that.
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Deedee—
She concluded that Zimmerman must have hit Trayvon first but does so for essentially no reason other than her biases. She says she heard his earpiece come out of his ear and then the call was abruptly ended by Trayvon. She thinks that means Zimmerman must have hit Trayvon. I’d say assuming what she said is the truth, that that’s more consistent with Trayvon getting ready to hit Zimmerman first, by pocketing his earpiece and phone first. If Zimmerman sucker punched Trayvon (who remember showed no signs of injury other that the gunshot wound according to the funeral director) Trayvon likely would have tossed his phone to the side without taking the time to hang up so as to defend himself as quickly as possible.
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Demerera—
Ahhhh, no. And I use four 1’s. But that’s ok.
That’s a ridiculous, highly emotional, and very prejudiced assertion – for starters.
Wrong.
I’ve never taken any relish or glee that Travyvon died. I’ve taken interest in the incredibly biased view every black on this thread has taken of what the evidence suggests actually happened. I’ve taken interest and been agast at the incredibly biased and one sided narrative the media for a long time applied to this story. That’s been slowly changing, especially since the bail bond hearing.
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Sharina–
You obviously don’t understand the law.
Even if Zimmerman did start the physical fight, which I think a preponderance of the evidence suggests he did not (though there’s certainly not proof beyond a reasonable doubt that he didn’t, nor need there be for this to be thrown out), that still doesn’t permit Martin to keep beating Zimmerman’s head against the concrete once he’s on top of him, such that Zimmerman feared great bodily harm such as going into a coma, having a severe concussion, or death, while pinning GZ to the ground. All that wasn’t necessary to defend himself. Not even close.
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@doug111
Two things I would like to mention:
1) There was an exchange of words. I would not see a “sucker punch” being likely when both parties facing one another with some slight distance between them.
2) Sensibility is not present when adrenaline starts to kick in. We could rationalize the best choice of action now but people in a tense situation generally do not. Martin personally manipulating the phone, although plausible, isn’t a guarantee. He would have most likely been concerned with the person who was near him at the time.
If Martin did in fact state what Zimmerman mentioned then Martin gave an advance warning that he was going to strike so a “sucker punch” is less likely to occur.
Also, I’m fairly certain that the girlfriend mentioned hearing someone getting pushed and then another push where she assumed Martin was pushed since the call ended. From her statement it is not clear who pushed whom first. If no evidence of Martin punching Zimmerman in the face can be determined then it is still likely that Martin did take part in a shoving match. It is also still possible that Martin starting bashing Zimmerman’s head on the concrete on the ground once Zimmerman lost his footing. I can understand wondering why Martin didn’t run after possibly gaining the upper hand but you must understand that Martin could have also been unsure if Zimmerman had a gun or not. Pushing someone to the ground isn’t disarming them or ensuring that they will stop following either.
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Deedee–
No ABC did not quote her as saying that on the recording that Crump made of her statement to him. She concluded that Zimmerman “must have” been the first one to shove for the reasons I said, which aren’t at all persuasive and I think tend to cut somewhat the other way, towards Trayvon starting the physical fight, for the reasons I explained above.
The fact is we can’t know for sure. However I think it’s much more likely for the reasons I’ve repeated that Trayvon started the physical fight. To recap:
1) Zimmerman didn’t sound mad at Trayvon, just suspicious of him on the call he made to police, nor did he have a reason to be mad at him. He wasn’t sure Trayvon was casing the neighborhood for burglary, he just suspected it. In contrast Trayvon did have a reason to be mad at Zimmerman. He had reason to feel dissed at being he probably thought racially profiled, suspected, and followed.
2) What Zimmerman said his aim was on the call he made to police was to keep Trayvon in sight so he could point him out to police when they shortly arrived. He expressed frustration on the call when he lost sight of Trayvon. He didn’t say he wanted to question Trayvon or detain him, that’s what he’d called the police to do and he knew they were coming. Nor had Zimmerman ever questioned or detained any other of the persons he’d called into police as being suspicious. In stead according to the Reuters article he’d sometimes followed suspicious to him persons at a distance while awaiting the arrival of police.
3) He knew the police were coming shortly, while Trayvon did not. It would be pretty dumb to start a fight that someone might have seen start, with the police arriving, and neighbors knowing who you are.
4) He had taken a gun training course before getting his concealed carry permit. He would have learned in it that it’s really dumb to start a physical fight when armed, since what did happen could happen with at the very least all sorts of complications for him, or worse the opponent could discover the weapon in the struggle, take it from him, and shoot him. Trayvon didn’t know Zimmerman was armed, whereas Zimmerman wasn’t sure if Trayvon was armed or not.
5) Trayvon was much taller than Zimmerman, 6’2” @160+ to Zimmerman’s 5’8 @ 170. That makes it a lot less likely that Zimmerman would start a physical fight as well.
6) According to Deedee as well as Zimmerman it was Trayvon who started the verbal confrontation between them. We have no reason to think that Zimmerman even approached Trayvon rather than the other way around which is what Zimmerman says and Deedee doesn’t contradict.
Given all that, with no eyewitness as to how the fight started other than Zimmerman, it seems to me that the preponderance of the circumstantial and other evidence indicates that it was probably Trayvon who started the fight. Sure there’s no proof beyond a reasonable doubt that it went down that way but it’s easily more likely than not.
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@doug 4 one’s 🙂
I’ve never taken any relish or glee that Travyvon died.
Oh but you do by re-living it and depicting it vividly. You revel in the fact that this young buck is one less threat to you and your ilk such is your fear of all black men and your mind’s eyes depiction of them as thugs and predators. Particularly ghoulish methinks
That’s a ridiculous, highly emotional, and very prejudiced assertion – for starters.
There is nothing emotive about my response. You read it from your frightened corner and it evokes an emotional response in you (one that is too embarrasing and emasculating to contemplate) and thats the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Forgive me if I am wrong but if I recall correctly Doug, on one of the other threads you alluded to the fact that you were attacked by black people so, bearing that in mind, who out of the two of us is the most likely to have an emotive stance in response to a situation like this – think about it!
I’ve taken interest and been agast at the incredibly biased and one sided narrative the media for a long time applied to this story. That’s been slowly changing, especially since the bail bond hearing.
Listen love, you can’t kid a kidder. One sided stories you say? Strange that since the sad event happened you have been numero uno commenter about the so called ‘facts’ and had already earmarked several publications that supported your base and narrow viewpoint. Your problem is, when people present facts that are alien to your preconceived conceptions of people, you cant reconcile this as the truth.
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deedee
Response to you is in moderation.
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Demerera–
Nope. Not true at all.
And I’m not frightened of blacks. I would be in some neighborhoods but I don’t go there.
You’re wrong. I never have been.
And yes what I was responding to of yours was definitely emotionally driven and highly prejudiced. It comes through clearly from the wording. It was also an absurd claim. I’ve dealt dispassionately and in detail with the actual evidence, all of it that’s out there so far.
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This is an open comment to everyone.
It doesn’t matter whether Trayvon was a thug or Zimmerman has been arrested before. Neither proves guilt or innocence.
It doesn’t matter whether Zimmerman followed Trayvon or Trayvon came back to confront Zimmerman. Neither justifies the use of force.
If I understand Florida law, the only thing that matters is who attacked who. If Zimmerman attacked Trayvon then its manslaughter. But if Trayvon attacked Zimmerman then its self defense.
The only witnesses say Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman beating him. That shows a struggle took place. But it still doesn’t prove who started it. Because no one saw the start except Zimmerman and Trayvon. That a struggle took place makes self defense plausible. But it doesn’t prove it.
The only injures (besides the obvious gunshot) are Zimmerman’s nose and head. That doesn’t prove Trayvon started it either. Maybe Zimmerman swung and missed. Maybe Zimmerman grabbed Trayvon and wrestled him to the ground. Either could have happened. And neither would have left marks on Trayvon. But there’s no evidence to show it happened that way.
That’s what it really boils down to. It’s not that the evidence proves Zimmerman’s innocence. It’s that the evidence doesn’t prove Zimmerman’s guilt. I wish there was hard evidence to prove one way or the other. But there’s not. That’s why people keep arguing over this – because there’s just no hard evidence to prove one way or the other.
The courts instruct jurors not to convict unless the defendant’s guilt can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. That means a lot of guilty people go free. I don’t like that any more than anyone else. But if the burden of proof were on the defendant there would be a lot more innocent people in prison. And I don’t think anyone wants that, either.
The police wanted to arrest Zimmerman but the state’s attorney told them not to because there wasn’t enough evidence for a conviction. I don’t know whether the judge will dismiss the charges at the evidentiary hearing. But I believe that if this case goes to trial Zimmerman will be acquitted. That doesn’t mean Zimmerman is innocent. He might be guilty as sin. But someone shouldn’t be convicted because they MIGHT be guilty.
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@duckduckgoofs
Very nice comment. I just hope that people are playing up stories of growing hostilities. Regardless of if Zimmerman is found guilty ot not or even reached a trial, justice will be served. I just worry that some have a different opinion of what that “justice” consists of.
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@Doug1111
Demerera said: About every comment you’ve made, every so called element of conversation you have carefully selected posted on here and every statement you have EVER made about the Trayvon case – how bout that for starters.
Doug said: And yes what I was responding to of yours was definitely emotionally driven and highly prejudiced. It comes through clearly from the wording. It was also an absurd claim. I’ve dealt dispassionately and in detail with the actual evidence, all of it that’s out there so far.
Nope. It is merely fact – plain and simple. My response to you is as dispassionate as you ‘maintain’ your observations and judgements are regarding this case.
However, what is ludicrous is your constant denial about what is staring you in the face both in terms of this case and your own fears and how they are manifesting themselves on this blog.
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Duckduckgoofs—
Good comment but you’re not right on Florida law.
I’ve got a long comment in moderation for all the reasons mostly circumstantial evidence for why I think it’s easily more likely than not that Trayvon and not Zimmerman initiated the physical fight.
But even if Zimmerman did start it he’s not automatically guilty of manslaughter
The relevant piece of Florida self defense law if so is this (which Sharina has quoted a ways above):
I’ve bolded the parts that fit the facts as we know them, if we assume arguendo that Zimmerman started the fight.
2a) is applicable given the severity of the beat down Zimmerman received, and screaming for help satisfies 2b).
However Zimmerman will be much less sympathetic to a jury or the judge at the self defense immunity hearing if they think Zimmerman started the fight. Might well result in a hung jury and the judge refusing to grant immunity.
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Demerera–
Utter rubbish.
The narrow is utterly ridiculous. I’ve given BY FAR the most comprehensive analysis of all the known facts in this case of any commenter on here. Most comments just tell stories pushed in the early days by Team Trayvon about what they think happened for which there’s no evidence at all “hunted down like a rabid dog for being black and wearing a hoodies in the racist vigilante Zimmerman’s neighborhood”. Others pick out a few little bits of evidence such as Zimmerman’s saying Trayvon looked to be a late teen to him on the phone call to police and then said on the stand that he thought Trayvon was a few years younger than him, that he was lying then, and lying in everything. That’s the sort of thing that isn’t remotely balanced and is narrow.
The jaundiced is almost equally absurd. Yes I’ve come to conclusions based on the evidence so far, but I’ve weighed the evidence even handedly, and discussed it that way, unlike most of the black commenters on here.
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@doug111
The jaundiced is almost equally absurd. Yes I’ve come to conclusions based on the evidence so far, but I’ve weighed the evidence even handedly, and discussed it that way, unlike most of the black commenters on here.
You keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.
The fact that you lump ‘most’ of the black commenters on here who disagree with you and state that it is in relation to the hue of their skin and not simply the fact that they dont agree with your blinkered PoV demonstrates just how far you are willing to go to deceive yourself.
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All—
From a conservative blog that’s followed the Trayvon-Zimmerman case very closely and done lots of good analysis:
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/05/01/site-note-for-followers-of-the-trayvon-shooting-occams-razor/
I.e. if DeeDee was on the phone with Trayvon when they first began to speak to each other she probably heard things rather different (and a lot less favorable to Trayvon) than she weeks later said she did not even directly to a reporter but rather to Crump who recorded it, after ample opportunity to be coached by lawyer Crump.
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@ Duckduckgoofs…I can respect your comment because you are saying you do not know. Which no one does know.
@ doug instead of trying to correct his stance you should take the time to read exactly what Duckduckgoofs has said. You are too busy trying to tell him he is wrong to event think about what he is saying and that is sad.
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@ Deedee…I agree with your statement fully.
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Circusboy,
Now you’re backed into a corner because you’re repeating yourself. In any case I’m through arguing with you because you are not on my level or even on the level of the race realists here.
The only thing you’ve made clear is that you ARE a racist. You’ve made racist statements, sometimes you’ve said the same statements more than once.
You think black people are thugs because of the way they dress. What about whites, Latinos or Asians who dress the same way as you’ve described how thugs dress. By what we laughingly call your “logic” that would make them thugs too, right?
You keep saying that perception is reality, but you have no idea what reality is. If you did, you wouldn’t be saying the dumbest statements pertaining to this case.
You are soulless by trying to excuse and justify the murder of a young teen. That is beyond cruel, and you should get on your knees to apologize to whatever god you believe in and beg for forgiveness. However, something tells me you would not have the gall to say what you’ve been vomiting here to Trayvon’s parents.
Lastly, what about white serial killers? What about white pedophiles? What about white mass murderers? What about white crime period? You’re so hung up on black crime you think we’re the only people responsible for crime, and you believe we worship it. That’s insulting if not sad. You see black people as a monolith. Why can’t white people be seen as the same? Answer me that, genius.
Like I said, you are a lost cause. You are not worthy to have an intelligent conversation with because your head is so wrapped up in arrogance and ignorance so deep that it would make those who actually have Ph.Ds laugh themselves to death. So, I’m through with your willful stupidity and heartlessness.
Adios.
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@ doug…You have not refuted anything. I can start the copy and pasting again because you constantly keep forgetting what you type in here. Any time I have refuted you on things and re brought it to your attention you have started talking about the black community and not answer the darn question. If you would actually answer them then I would not re-ask you.
Same thing I did about you reading the article where Zimmerman walked police through crime scene and it took Uncle Milton to provide the link. When it was provided I did not question you about it. You think if you beat your lies into someone they will give in and believe your story, but sorry I am not the one. You can lie all day Doug but it does not make it true.
You obviously do not understand the law or what I said.You are claiming that Zimmerman had the right to use deadly force against Martin to save his own life, but you are trying to say that Martin did not have the right to use deadly for against someone who possibly could have attacked him first. What since does that make? If indeed Zimmerman did push or hit Martin first then news flash d*umb a** Martin’s force was reasonable and actually acceptable under Florida law. Maybe you need to spend more time reading that statue. You are basing your reasoning on your belief Martin started and thus you are concluding that Florida law does not apply.
Once again take you bias out of it long enough to see the case straight, because both sides of the fence can act in self-defense and the kicker will be who started it first. You have not provided any thorough information in this case whatsoever. You dismiss anyone who does not agree with you, so how in the world does that point to you being the most conclusive commenter. It does not it points to your blindness and complete stupidity.
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@ Doug…Hell you have not even answered my question regarding your own biased and you have yet to refute the last statement I made prior to this so as I told Circusboy. Until you can actually have a serious debate instead of whining about the black community, Crump, and the liberal media….eat the sh*t you woke up in.
Oh and Dougy I thought deedee was actually going to prove Zimmerman was right. Oh that is right…you decided she was not credible because you could not make her story completely agree with Zimmerman.
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@ Doug “The narrow is utterly ridiculous. I’ve given BY FAR the most comprehensive analysis of all the known facts in this case of any commenter on here. Most comments just tell stories pushed in the early days by Team Trayvon about what they think happened for which there’s no evidence at all “hunted down like a rabid dog for being black and wearing a hoodies in the racist vigilante Zimmerman’s neighborhood”. Others pick out a few little bits of evidence such as Zimmerman’s saying Trayvon looked to be a late teen to him on the phone call to police and then said on the stand that he thought Trayvon was a few years younger than him, that he was lying then, and lying in everything. That’s the sort of thing that isn’t remotely balanced and is narrow.”—You stated your facts on what? The crap you drug up from supposedly unbiased conservative blogs. You have done nothing but waist space but nothing you said has been based on any “comprehensive analysis.” Ego. I have told you time and time again my information was based on 911 tapes so please tell me how I was able to be sucked in by the media. I don’t have cable or a converter box and as I have stated I only watch the news when visiting relatives and if they are watching it (looks like Dougy is wrong again). I think you need to put your glasses on. I stated that When Zimmerman lied about not knowing the age of Martin yet stated in court he thought he was a little younger than him that if he could lie about that what else could he lie about, so I began to study the 911 tapes from their. Get that information straight and stop twisting my words. You are not completely right in this case so get over it because you don’t have all the information you claim you have.
—Hell at this point I don’t trust you or respect you simply because you are not even man enough to admit your obvious prejudice and bias. You can’t even admit in places where you have been wrong and lying(and trust me throughout this blog you have been wrong on many things and lying about this you have said). I have even watch you time and time again take things I have said to you and try to claim it as your own conclusion. If your “comprehensive analysis” includes stealing things from other people I can almost promise you that you would be thrown out for plagiarizing.
The jaundiced is almost equally absurd. Yes I’ve come to conclusions based on the evidence so far, but I’ve weighed the evidence even handedly, and discussed it that way, unlike most of the black commenters on here.”—There you go again blaming your lack of efficiency on the black commenter. Time you take some blame for your own lack of performance.
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I am beginning to believe Doug thinks he is Zimmerman. Thinks he knows the law (doesn’t), thinks he knows what Zimmerman was thinking (doesn’t), referring to his information as fact and everyone else as lies (wrong). I honestly believe people like him needs help. Although I have been laugh at the guy I seriously think he needs some type of help. I know this case can be heated but it causes concern when a person gets that delusional about.
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Sharina—
I don’t know if she’s telling the truth or not. I posted a long quote from a site that’s following this very closely and the blog own said what he said. The points he makes do create suspicion.
I’d have to see her cross examined.
She or Crump certainly could have made up a far more damaging to Zimmerman narrative of what she heard. As I said I don’t think she is that damaging to him at all.
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The blog I said was quite unbiased on this is the TalkLeft one or rather Jacelyn at it.
The conservative blogs I linked have or certainly developed some bias yes, but they the ones I linked are light years less biased than the blacks on this blog, and most others I’ve seen around the net. They go through ALL the available evidence in detail and don’t just make stuff up. They do develop theories yes.
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Sharina
That is just a ridiculous statement. You don’t back any of that up. You don’t show where I’m wrong about Florida’s self defense law, when you tried you failed. I only infer what Zimmerman was likely thinking from his 911 call, and information about his background with blacks and his past behavior as a neighborhood watch captain appointed such by the watch committee, and so on. I weigh Zimmerman’s statements against the other available evidence.
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@ Doug “’ve bolded the parts that fit the facts as we know them, if we assume arguendo that Zimmerman started the fight.
2a) is applicable given the severity of the beat down Zimmerman received, and screaming for help satisfies 2b).
However Zimmerman will be much less sympathetic to a jury or the judge at the self defense immunity hearing if they think Zimmerman started the fight. Might well result in a hung jury and the judge refusing to grant immunity.”
You mean you bolded the facts you think you know.
“(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant;
or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.”
—-2(a) goes hand in hand. You can not bold the part you think applies and then decide he is going to get off only on what you choose to acknowledge. He would have to have exhausted every reasonable means to escape this danger. If that meant he had to break an arm, then so be it. If that meant he had to run then so be it. If that meant he had to shoot him in the leg them so be it, but if that meant he had to flash his gun then so be it. That would not apply to Zimmerman
—-2(b) As I may have stated this is something he actually could get off with. If they did fight and he wanted to with draw. The thing about it is you do not know for fact what went on and what did not went on. I hope this at least make you realize how biased you are becoming and if it does, then do seek help.
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@Doug,
I suggest you should either suggest a “Will Zimmerman go to trial” thread to Abagond or just stop posting in this thread. You made your point so can you just leave it alone. Also, the aggressor law you showed doesn’t apply to the law for self-defense that prevents criminal prosecution. Statue 776.032. Sharina statement about you isn’t as ridiculous as you think. You are one of the sole commenters still keeping this thread alive. You almost seem to have a vested interest in this case. Her observation is understandable because your actions seem to make her statement appear true. Please give this thread a rest. i understand that new evidence pops up which is why I suggest to ask Abagond to make a new thread. This thread is no longer relevant since Zimmerman has been arrested and brought before a judge for a hearing.
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Sharina—
The 911 tapes are an inadequate base of information to form a tentative judgment in this case. There is lots of other evidence. I have had no intention of debating you solely on the basis of 911 tapes no matter how many times you’ve said that.
What have I been lying about? Nothing. What have I been wrong about, that I said was a fact or at least a reported fact? I can’t think of anything and certainly nothing substantial.
You’ve been endlessly insulting yet I’ve hardly insulted you at all. Your style of argument is very unattractive though it does appeal to the bulk of black and far leftist white commenters on here.
Complete rubbish. In fact the whole comment was. It was full of generalized attack with no specific backing up examples given. Zero none. All hot air, noise and indignation.
Intellectually dishonest and full of hate and really bigotry.
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@ doug…too me it doesn’t matter what deedee says. You keep throwing her in the mix. I based my conclusion of how I feel about the case on 911 tapes and the bond hearing. That is it. The law that I quoted was because you were claiming you knew it so well and how it applied to Zimmerman, so I wanted you to see it instead of quoting off the top of your head.
Also when a blogger states his or her opinion (which I happily quoted for you) They are no no longer unbiased. If that blogger had stated facts and allowed reader to determine on there own I would take that much more seriously and consider it. I also stated it was great all the way up until they started stating their opinion as if they are trying to tell me what to think. In case you have yet to notice with me I form my own ideas.
“That is just a ridiculous statement. You don’t back any of that up. You don’t show where I’m wrong about Florida’s self defense law, when you tried you failed.” —Doug I proved you wrong several times and I noticed in all the blogs I have you decide not to answer it. Those are usually the blogs that follow with your statement of how the black community, Crump, and liberal media are bias. Hey check my statement above and see where I proved you wrong once again. I have done it consistently and when it is something you agree with you peddle it as if you said it first. Another thing you fail to get about me is that I never once said Zimmerman was racist. I don’t even care about what relationship he had or did not have with blacks.
I know this is hard for you because you are used to lumping blacks in one category, but you are going to have to try really hard to not do that with me, because you have once again confused what I am saying with things that have been going on with other blacks.
“Now this is something he can use, but the big kicker to the case is Martin’s Autopsy. This would have to show signs of a fight. Granted it could be that Zimmerman never landed a punch or Martin Never landed a punch, but considering what Zimmerman is claiming (life and death situation and all) it will require some type sign that Martin was indeed fighting.”—Here is what I stated regarding 2(b) of that statue.
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Sharina–
As I said when you said that, that’s just wrong. Zimmerman does seem to have never landed a punch or at least a hard effectual one, by what the funeral director said. There is plenty of evidence that Zimmerman had just be in a fight and beaten badly. That’s what matters.
No I’m not used to doing that. But I’ve been frankly surprised with how universal the one sided prejudice that Zimmerman must be guilty and that self defense isn’t valid by blacks not only on this site but on others as well. Not competely universal elsewhere but WAY in that direction. That’s what national polls have shown too.
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@ Doug you are so quick to respond to everything everyone says that you are not in anyway paying attention to what they are saying or what you are saying for that matter. Name one time you have not blamed the black community, Crump, or liberal media when you could not get your point across or you can’t make a point?
Secondly I have not once asked you to debate on the 911 tapes. If you pay attention to what I said then you know that I stated I based my decision on that alone. You have been wrong on things in here and you are sooo blinded by your own bias that you can not see it. All you have to do is read other post and see your mistakes (I have admitted my mistakes). You can see where you have been wrong, but your level of blindness has only allowed you to see and interpret things the way you want. Do you not seriously see something wrong with that?
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deedee–
As I said way above, the same issues that applied to whether there was sufficient probable cause to arrest Zimmerman apply to whether he should get granted immunity from trial and from a civil lawsuit under a Florida self defense immunity hearing before the judge only.
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@ Doug…Just so you have a clear case of where you lied…You stated that ear witnesses with corroborate what Zimmerman said. I asked you about the ear witnesses and you completely ignored me and would not answer. To your claim the ear witnesses said they heard Martin as the aggressor with his yelling.
Not sure how “ear” witness can determine whose voice is who, but ok.
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Sharina
You know you accuse me of posting to much and too fast and then when I don’t answer every single point in every post you make you think that’s an outrage as well. You’ve hardly answered every point I’ve made, or anything close.
I did not say that, I said almost the opposite. I said that at least one ear witness, Mary, heard what she called whining and that she thought it must be that of “little kid” Trayvon. As to how she knew, I made just the same point that you do in your second paragraph.
There was another ear witness who heard an argument and that one voice sounded angry and dominant. I don’t think she had a view as to who that was. I said that I thought that was likely Trayvon for the same reasons I listed not far above for why I think it far more likely that he started the physical fight. I don’t think I said this but that ear witness suggests that it wasn’t an equally heated exchange.
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Sharina–
Also to characterize my not responding to a question you asked as lying is absurd, and shows huge bias.
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@ Doug…..how does it show biased because I stated your refusal to answer questions. Also I want you to show me where I have not answered any of your questions?
“You’ve hardly answered every point I’ve made, or anything close.”—Show me where I have not answered every point you made. I think you have selective reading going on. Take your time and read through my post and you will quickly realize that I have.
“The two women earwitnesses to the events before the gunshot and of the gunshot, heard someone they described to CNN’s Anderson Cooper as “whining” who they concluded “had” to be the child Trayvon, probably due to all the child photos of 6’2 athletic football 17yo high school senior (said by police to be 160lbs) that the Martin’s black attorney has spun the media into accepting as “current enough” and into running. (Which is appallingly biased.) However Trayvon’s father told the media the rather high pitched voice shouting for help wasn’t that of his son, and two of Zimmerman’s friends one of whom is now an attorney spokesperson for him and the other of whom is black, says it was that of Zimmerman. (Actually both women were eyewitnesses after the shot, but I’m not sure that both heard the shouting for help described as whinning. “——Did you not type this? I never knew witnesses all of a sudden is one.
“Police said Zimmerman had a bloody back of his head, a bloody nose, and a bloody lip. That blood can be cleaned up. Two eyewitnesses saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman pinning him to the ground, bashing his head against the pavement and repeatedly punching him in the face. No eyewitness of the actual fight contradicts that. One ear witness who didn’t see the fight only Zimmerman standing over Trayvon after he was dead does but only by jumping to unwarrented conclusions. She says the voice screaming for help “had to be” that of the “little kid” Trayvon because it ended right after the gunshot and it was somewhat high pitched. However Travon’s father said after he first listened to 911 tapes said that wasn’t the voice of his son, and Zimmerman would have stop screaming as soon has Trayvon was shot and no longer hitting him. She’s also obviously very prejudiced against Zimmerman and for Trayvon if you see clips of her interviews well after the night of the shooting with all the media spin and pictures of “little kid” Trayvon” —-Again here you are claiming one.
You want to change your story again to show how you do not lie to fit the situation.
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end result and this is for all those who have assumed zimmerman to be automatically guilty of murder, self defense is self defense no matter who starts it. however following someone who appears to be a criminal(and also fits the profile of the burlar who were caught , and there were many of them and all were black young males trayvons age.) deserves to be followed and observed on a routine basis. it does not have to be a police officer doing this either. in our society we have something called citizens arrest. stand you ground is a really great law. no person should be forced to make themselves appear to be even more of a target by running away. these thugs usually hunt in packs and communicate to eachother .
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@ Doug “Still both she and Zimmerman say it was Trayvon who initiated interchange between them. Ear witnesses say the interchange had one dominant voice that sounded angry. That I think is by far more likely to be Trayvon, who was much taller than Zimmerman and had reason particularly from the point of view of many you black males to have felt dissed for being profiled, suspected and followed. “—I found your statement and yes it does show that you stated you believe it to be Martin. So in this I am wrong.
“As to how she knew, I made just the same point that you do in your second paragraph.”—Let me ask you something. If I have made no point and have not answered your questions at all. How is it you can conclude that we made the same point on that statement? Why is it you only acknowledge what I have said because it is something you agree with? Are you getting my point yet? or are you still in denial? Why all the responses to me for points you claim I have not made? I never answered you so why so many responses to me?
You keep proving my point. As much as you want to claim it is absurd, so if you answer it then you acknowledge truth to it and if you don’t then it is not true?
Want me to find more things i believe to be lies? Part of the confusion may be that you are stating these things as facts and not as your thoughts. Then you saying something and find yourself back peddling what you said. You will do less back peddling if you stop trying to blame liberal media, Crump, and Black community for every time you do not have an answer.
FYI–I never accused you of posting too much. I accused you of posting without taking the time to read or realize what you are saying and what others are saying.
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@ Doug…I am going to go through and show you all the times you have contradicted yourself, claim biased when you could not answer the question, and even did a few lies. I think copy and paste is the only way you will truly be able to see your words and see some of the things you say. After that if you want to continue to argue a point I will just let you argue with yourself.
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@Doug
“Fri 27 Apr 2012 at 20:13:47 doug
Sarina–
Further it can’t be interpreted in the way you’re doing. Detaining someone is nowhere close to being a forcible felony. That portion of that statute is completely inapplicable.
If Zimmerman started the fight though, then the stand your ground part of Florida’s self defense statute isn’t applicable, though since eyewitness John’s statement to police and no doubt future testimony in court corroborates that Trayvon had Zimmerman pinned to the ground on his back (while continuing to beat him repeatedly in the face and smash his head against the concrete as he screamed directly to John for help), Zimmerman had no option to flee.”
Sun 29 Apr 2012 at 23:28:39 Sharina
“A forcible felon by law is treason and any felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against a person. This can be an assumption as no one knows what Zimmerman said or did to start that fight. If there was a threat would Martin not fight back? You proved nothing this could go either way. You have said countless time as have I. No one knows who started that fight and how it started. For all we know Zimmerman could have had that gun drawn.”—-Once again refutes your claim that Zimmerman could not fall under the law for your reasoning.
Would you like me to go on because there are pages and pages of this stuff? Now tell me that lie again how I never responded to you or refuted anything you said. You want me to go count how many times you blames the black community, Crump, or Liberal media when you could not get a point across?
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To Sharina:
If Zimmerman started the fight though, then the stand your ground part of Florida’s self defense statute isn’t applicable..
That’s my interpretation of the law also.
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to those of those who can’t read, or only want to read what they want to into the law, stand your ground does not care who started the fight , nor should it matter in ordinary self defense, the person in fear of their life is the one who has the right to not appear as easy prey and end it by killing the person who would kill them. merely asking someone what they are doing somewhere is no grounds for assault. (or police officers would be in trouble for asking homeless people why they are sleeping in a park) however all corroburating evidence points to trayvon being the instigator but asking ” if zimmerman had a problem” and then assaulting him (next logical sequence of events) . yes there were actual witnesses to this.
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@ Uncle Milton..That is what I believe as state officials have come forth to say that it would not apply in this case and was not meant to apply in this case.
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@ Doug…My favorite is how Deedee goes from relevant to irrelevant with you. \
Doug—“Even DeeDee says that Trayvon initiated the verbal confrontation by demanding of Zimmerman “Why are you following me?”
Doug—“But DeeDee’s statement of what she heard while Trayvon was on the cell phone, and the circumstantial evidence all suggest it’s much much more likely that Trayvon started the physical fight than that Zimmerman did.”
In these statements she is relevant as she makes your claim that Martin is the aggressor. Now watch how that changes.
Sat 28 Apr 2012 at 23:56:19 doug1111
Sharina
@ Doug…Once again….How does “why are you following me?” prove that Martin started the altercation.
First of all we don’t know if DeeDee is telling the truth especially as to the exact words used.
Sharina— What that does prove it that there was never that cheesy line of “You got a problem” No. “Well you do now.” Which proves another lie for Zimmerman.
Doug—” Now you’re being both illogical and highly biases. Why do you assume what DeeDee said was Trayvon’s first words were were the truth whereas what Zimmerman says they were was a lie? DeeDee’s claimed phrasing sounds cleaned up and rather white to me. Zimmerman’s sounds a lot more like what a black teen would say, to me.”
Would you now like to discuss your back and forth on how Zimmerman did not know Martin was dead and then the quick change of how he did know?
See the difference between me and you is that when I am wrong I admit it. You have been wrong with evidence and you still choose not to acknowledge that. I despise people who are like that as they cannot fully call themselves an adult. When you do something wrong you should own up to it. That is what an adult does. That is integrity. You do not have that. I feel sorry for you. I feel sorry that you are harboring hate because of past experiences. Get therapy. Get over it. Go clear your head. You bias will forever cloud your judgment if you don’t
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this is the florida law, 776.041 Use of force by aggressor. —The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.
asking a person what they are doing there (part 2 here is what is applicable to what martin supporters say makes stand your own ground applicable) asking someone what the fuck they are doing in the neighborhood does not provoke(nor warrant an attack).
a man’s pride does not give him the right to put his hand’s on someone. throughout history this was settled like real men , with a duel to the death under arranged and equal circumstances for the both , matched pistols @20 paces, boxing, fencing. sucker punching for dishonoring your intentions does not mean sucker puch the fucker ,(who might have been wrong). it means telling him to fuck off and walk away. only a criminal would respond like martin did.
so to all you people who think stand your own ground does not apply . it really does . tell us what part of the above makes it not apply. even if you do provoke the attack part 2a is yet another exemption from manslaughter charges(which is the most it could be even if this did not apply) read the word’s “such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he /she is in imminent danger of death or BODILY HARM. this means zimmerman is innocent. having your brain bucket bounced on pavement would cause any person to believe their life was in danger and they are already recieving great bodily harm as your brain is the most important organ other than your skin.
2+2 =5 when it comes to martin supporters who thinks this law does not apply to zimmerman.
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This is another open comment to everyone.
None of you are ever going to convince the other. So the better choice is to agree to disagree and respect a difference of opinion. Otherwise. you’ll just keep repeating yourselves for several hours a day with nothing to show for it except your own frustration.
But for the sake of argument, let’s say one of you does manage to convince the other. So what? It won’t change anything. You’d still have 300 million more people to convince. And not a one of them matters except the 6 people who will be sitting on the jury. It’s just not worth arguing over.
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@ duckduckgoofs…As I have stated before i am not trying to convince any one of anything. I have happily made my stance and I believe many others have. The point of my post was to show Doug of his countless contradictions and how he constantly is claiming he is not biased yet at the same time making extremely biased statements. He can believe or not believe in Martin. The bottle line is do not tell a lie that I can back up with your post.
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@ circusboy…The amount of stupidity you exhibit everyday is amazing. You quote a law and still do not know what it means. You throw out dribble and have not one fact to support it. Just your mindless speculation. Here’s an idea gets some facts and stop speculating.
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@ circusboy…It is obvious that you can not read the stand your ground law. You quoted self-defense. Stand your ground is a different statue. LOL!!!! Oh my goodness that is so embarrassing. I guess When Jeb Bush stated stand your ground does not apply in this case he was wrong? LOL!!! I needed a good laugh.
Here is the link to the stand your ground statue. http://www.floridastandyourground.org/. If you are going to support Zimmerman at least get accurate information.
I will give you credit though. At least you said Martin supporters and not black community or black people.
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@ duckduckgoofs I also want him to admit his bias since he keeps telling me I am biased, but I see your point. That is something he will not admit so I should just let it go.
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@ circusboy9010 “Based on stand your ground: An established legal principle, the Castle Doctrine, has long allowed people to use reasonable, and sometimes deadly, force to protect themselves from an assailant inside their homes. But on public property outside the home, a person who could safely retreat from a threat generally has a legal duty to do so.”
—Again if you are going to defend Zimmerman,defend him with accurate information. Zimmerman forfeited stand your ground when he followed. He can claim self-defense though.
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Sharina–
The more you comment the more I lose respect for your intelligence.
What you wrote and what I quote here is absolutely not true. There’s nothing in Florida’s criminal self defense statutes that says that.
That is completely and utterly wrong.
It’s merely what you want to believe.
Emotional black thinking.
This thread has been an education for me.
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This thread has been an education for me.
Funny that, your posts have merely acted as confirmation for me..
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“What you wrote and what I quote here is absolutely not true. There’s nothing in Florida’s criminal self defense statutes that says that.
That is completely and utterly wrong.
It’s merely what you want to believe.
Emotional black thinking.
This thread has been an education for me.”
@Doug
Hmm, odd.
I totally agree with that statement in that he forfeited his right to stand his ground when he purposely pursued and engaged Martin.
He had no damn right to engage this kid.
I’ve stated before on a different site, yes he might have been profiling but damned as it may have been he should have sat his ass back and waited for police to arrive if he was that concerned.
This guy needs to be charged with murder, an unjust murder. I would not want this guy walking around anywhere near me nor would I feel safe if he were to walk away guilt-free.
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yawn yes he did have a right, anybody who lives in a good neighborhood a person has every reason & right to question what most of decent society percieves to be a criminal element. I blame the parents for letting the young man go out like that especially in a gated community. perception is reality. however none of that really matters. the only thing that matters is stand your ground apply’s to zimmerman no matter who started the fight read the law I have posted it several times. there is one important word there, unless. which is the qualifier for zimmerman to apply part 2a .
however again a civilized person may be offended and can pull a challenge for his honor, sucker punching someone is not an honorable way to win your honor back. if trayvon threw the first punch then it is plain and simple self defense. again asking someone what they are doing there is no excuse for assault and attempted murder that trayvon would surely have done if he had not been stopped by lead poisoning. if trayvon was fearingn for his safety he would not have approached zimmerman and asked him if he had a problem. either way it’s not even important who threw the punch or who followed who. stand your ground still applys. this is not me supporting zimmerman I don’t even know him, this is me supporting justice which reads as I’ve posted several times.
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@ @ Doug (Zimmerman)…
After much thought last night I realized what a negative person you really are. I also realized I did not want to get sucked into your negativity as that was what was beginning to happen the more the conversation went on. I have talked with others about this case in other blogs. Many of which who supported Zimmerman, but all of us agreed that we did not have all the information and it can go either way. We did not dismiss the alternative views as each side made good points. You on the other hand are in no way like them yet still claim your information is the most accurate conclusion, when there are obvious flaws in your information (the lack of evidence to support). I have never met anyone who has a lack of information on suspect and defendant and still claim their way is right, even when what you have so far points to it going either way. Hell you level of hate for Martin is astonishing (proved it based on your obvious conclusion that he must be a thug; again no concrete evidence just speculation).
Your level of bias and prejudice has completely blinded you in all aspects of this case. You will ignore anything that does not agree with you Zimmerman…..I mean Doug. For example; you did not have enough knowledge of the law to quote it in the chat yet went on all claims that it support Zimmerman without even fully knowing it. In actuality only one part may support him and even that is not concrete. Then with another poster you took parts out of the statue that you felt would apply to try and make more than one part support your claim, ignoring the other half that stated duty to retreat. If you can not see that level of bias and prejudice you need to see help. It is amazing that anyone would choose to be that blind. You cannot have a comprehensive analysis if you ignore other possibilities. With the information you have at best it is inconclusive.
I am still going to support Martin, because the evidence does not without a reasonable doubt support that Zimmerman was not the aggressor. I am going to support him based on my own analysis of the information. I am going to support him because I want to. It doesn’t make my support for Martin any wrong or less accurate than yours for Zimmerman. I don’t pretend to know Zimmerman or Martin’s frame of mind. I don’t personally know them. I guess Zimmerman(Doug) would know Zimmerman though.
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@ Yawn…..
My husband’s theory actually is that Zimmerman may have went after Martin with the gun drawn and when Martin turned around to say why are you following me and saw the gun he may have grabbed at it. Martin’s sudden movement could have lead to Zimmerman shooting him. Interesting theory.
I personally believe that Zimmerman may have grabbed him, which resulted in fighting.
I personally wish they would re-evaluate this law as it seems to be nothing more than a license to kill. I agree in defending yourself, but if it leads to fatality and the person is not armed, then the individual should get jail time.
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sharina also this law is awesome it is not a license to kill it’s a license to defend yourself against killers like trayvon. it does not matter if the person is unarmed or not if they are trying to kill you (see part 2a of the law) they can do so without a weapon. if they are putting bodily harm to you then again you have the right to kill them. laws like this are what keep our society civil because nobody will want to screw around with someone when they have the right to kill you in retribution to your attack. get real lady. martin was a thug who got what he deserved.
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Circusboy,
What part of “George Zimmerman was the killer” did not register in your head?
And you’ve just shown, once again, that you don’t give a damn about the lives of black people.
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@circusboy9010
If you are going to attempt to debate me I urge you to actually read what I said.
“I personally wish they would re-evaluate this law as it seems to be nothing more than a license to kill. I agree in defending yourself, but if it leads to fatality and the person is not armed, then the individual should get jail time.” This is what I quoted. This is a personal opinion it is not fact. I never once said that is what the law said. Your post is incorrect in it’s entirety, but we will get to that later.
Secondly , I actually know the law so I do not need to butcher and take parts out of it to make it fit my point of view. I urge you to actually take a look at the law so that you have an understanding that 2(a) does not apply to Zimmerman and only 2(b) can apply to him.
“2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant;”—This is the statue 2(a) you are referring to. I have highlighted the part you keep ignoring. This is a duty to retreat. He must have actual made an effort to retreat this situation without the use of deadly force, so far Zimmerman has not stated if he did even make an effort to retreat and calling for help is not an effort to retreat. Running away is; nut shots and running away is. Breaking an arm is.
Thirdly, you keep claiming Martin as a killer and you have yet to provide proof of him being a killer or a thug. If you are going to support Zimmerman support him. Even Zimmerman stated Martin had on a hoodie and sweatpants or Jeans. He did not describe either as baggy.
I think it is obvious who needs to get real here. I think anytime you can quote someone’s words and still twist them around you need to get back to reality. I mean hell you are even trying to twist Zimmerman’s words. Even he did not claim Martin as a thug, but funny how his supporters (uneducated ones anyway) are peddling him as a thug.
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@ brothawolf…
In the case of Circusboy…that kind of stupidity can not be grown in a lab. I am beginning to notice a common pattern with people like him. They see what they want to see and even with clear cut evidence they still see what they want to see.
I mean look how quick he changed my opinion in to fact. He is so use to making his opinion fact in this case that anytime someone gives their thoughts he believes they are stating a fact.
That type of bias is dangerous. He might just kill you for your opinion alone. LOL.
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Yawn—
I don’t give a rats ass what you stupidly believe. You’re wrong. The stand your ground section of the Florida self defense statute isn’t even needed. GZ couldn’t flee. He was pinning pinned to the ground by Trayvon while he continued to smash his head against the concrete, potentially causing a coma, severe concussion or even death.
It’s was not illegal for Zimmerman to follow Trayvon for a reasonable period of time. There is no evidence whatsoever that GZ “pursued” TM. There is evidence from the police call me made that he was following him at a distance. You’re just making stuff up to fit your anti-non black prejudices.
Further engaging TM in speech was also not illegal. However both Zimmerman and DeeDee say that it was Trayvon who began the verbal confrontation, and there’s no contrary evidence whatsoever. Again you’re just making it up, as so many blacks have here and elsewhere around this case.
Trayvon had absolutely NO right to break GZ’s nose, knock him to the ground, straddle him pinning him to the ground so he couldn’t escape, repeatedly bash his head against the cement concrete which could have put GZ into a coma, given him a severe concussion, or even killed them. It was very, very likely the Trayvon started the physical fight as I explained in detail HERE, and there’s no evidence that he didn’t, as the lead investigator admitted to O’Mara at the bail bond hearing.
Florida law permits the potentially deadly use of force in self defense in such circumstances as follows:
Even if GZ did initiate physical fighting, which he’d never come close to doing in any of the previous times he’d called in to police suspicious to him characters in the neighborhood, he has the right to use if under Florida law as per the relevant bolded by me provisions of Florida law as I explained HERE .
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@circusboy9010
Another little tidbit for you….I actual have a gun, but because I was taught to give a good ole fashion a** woop’in; my weapon is second fiddle. I would never shoot or even point my weapon at an unarmed individual. If they are armed then that is a different story.
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Sharina–
There is only license to use potentially deadly force when a person reasonably believes he’s in immanent danger of death, great bodily harm, or suffering a forceful felony (e.g. forcible rape).
If Trayvon had hit Zimmerman in the face, breaking his nose and knocking him to the ground, but not gotten on top of him or slammed his head against the concrete, but did use racial slurs and insults such as “that’ll teach you to go race profiling black teens just for wearing a hoodie and being black, cracker”, started to walk away, and Zimmerman had then shot him, Zimmerman would be guilty of 2nd degree murder. Trayvon would be guilty of assault and battery, but being dead that would be moot.
The two main things different about Florida law is that it has a stand your ground provision, which means there’s not a duty to retreat if you believe someone is about to commit a crime on you, and there’s also a provision that civil suit for wrongful death is barred if at a self defense immunity hearing the judge determines by a preponderance of the evidence (50.1%) that you acted in lawful self defense.
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@ Doug…
“The more you comment the more I lose respect for your intelligence.
What you wrote and what I quote here is absolutely not true. There’s nothing in Florida’s criminal self defense statutes that says that.
That is completely and utterly wrong.
It’s merely what you want to believe.
Emotional black thinking.
This thread has been an education for me.”
You truly are a fool to no end. Yet again you manage to pick one part of my post out and fail to acknowledge the part of the information that proves how this law does not apply to Zimmerman. I use forfeit but you can put what you like in it. Either way he can not claim stand your ground. Jeb Bush along with other Florida law makers have come forth to say how Zimmerman can not claim this in his defense.
“Based on stand your ground: An established legal principle, the Castle Doctrine, has long allowed people to use reasonable, and sometimes deadly, force to protect themselves from an assailant inside their homes. But on public property outside the home, a person who could safely retreat from a threat generally has a legal duty to do so.”—-This is what you failed to acknowledge. All you seem to do is blame the black community for the answers you do not have. “They must be making emotional responses so they can’t think straight…Blah…Blah…Blah.” This is all I hear from you due to your lack of adequacy. You don’t know something so you try to down play my responses to make yourself feel better.
Try taking your bias out of the picture and you might actually be able to see somethings clear. That is your big problem. I am not saying if you eliminate bias you will support Martin but I am saying that if you did then you may be able to see that your information does not support as much as you claim. You are afraid to be wrong and I think a lot of that has to do with your fear that a black person will be right.
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Sharina–
That’s true in the majority of states, but not true in Florida, or twenty other states. You I note don’t even link or even state where you’re quoting from.
I imagine Jeb Bush knows a lot lets about the facts of this case than I do. As well he and the principal sponsor of the law who are I think mostly interested in defending and keeping the stand your ground law were so far as I’ve seen speaking early on when a very biased against Zimmerman media narrative was out there and the impression had been created that Zimmerman had in some way attacked Trayvon first.
As I’ve said many times GZ can’t use the stand your ground (no duty to retreat) clause of Florida’s self defense law if he was the first one to physically attack the other in an illegal act (assault and battery). That doesn’t mean he forfeits no duty to retreat because he was following Trayvon at a distance or even closely or if he was the first one to question the other, though both GZ and DeeDee says Trayvon was the first to verbally demand of Zimmerman something (“Why are you following me?”)
Except it does.
I’ve got two long comments that have been in moderation for hours.
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@ Doug….”You I note don’t even link or even state where you’re quoting from.”—I will be happy to do that for you as a link is not one problem at all.
“As I’ve said many times GZ can’t use the stand your ground (no duty to retreat) clause of Florida’s self defense law if he was the first one to physically attack the other in an illegal act (assault and battery).”—Now you are claiming he can’t use the stand your ground law when You gave me an earful when I stated earlier that he can’t use it. Change your positions much.
“That doesn’t mean he forfeits no duty to retreat because he was following Trayvon at a distance or even closely or if he was the first one to question the other, though both GZ and DeeDee says Trayvon was the first to verbally demand of Zimmerman something (“Why are you following me?”)”—
I never said he forfeits his duty to retreat. What I said is he forfeited the stand your ground law. Where did you even get I said he forfeited his duty to retreat?
“Except it does.
I’ve got two long comments that have been in moderation for hours.”
Doug you contradict yourself constantly. I don’t think you know what you are saying anymore. With that being said you wouldn’t know if you information was wrong if the truth slaps you in the face. You can not say without a doubt your sub par detective work leads to Zimmerman not being the aggressor. You don’t know. You think you do, which is sad in itself.
You always claim your explanations are in moderation and then they never appear. I am beginning to wonder if you put them in at all.
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@ doug Link one to the law…http://www.cfif.org/htdocs/freedomline/current/in_our_opinion/florida-self-defense-law.htm and link two http://theweek.com/article/index/227159/stand-your-ground-laws-do-they-offer-a-license-to-kill.
“Florida has a “stand your ground law”. Under that law you’re allowed to use force including with a firearm if you reasonably believe that your life is in danger or you’re about to suffer a physically violent felony.
If Trayvon Martin was physically beating the Hispanic Zimmerman up as the eye witness reported, then Zimmerman falls within what’s permitted by Florida’s law.”—Is this not where you say Zimmerman can claim self-defense.
“As I’ve said many times GZ can’t use the stand your ground (no duty to retreat) clause of Florida’s self defense law if he was the first one to physically attack the other in an illegal act (assault and battery).”—Now here you are stating he can’t use it.
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@ Doug…
What concrete evidence do you have that Martin was the aggressor? If you can tell me that I will change my position. You don’t even have to write a long paragraph to tell it to me. I just want to know what concrete evidence you have that proves you are right and Martin started.
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Two people can keep a secret if one of them is dead….
It is quite apparent that the people on this blog defending Zimmerman are racist/bigots/prejudice. If Zimmerman were black and Trayvon was white, you would be using Zimmerman as proof that blacks are dangerous animals out to kill precious, innocent white children. He would be just another black statistic you can throw around in this blog.
If you really cared about Zimmerman, why come to this blog and defend him. Go to the media, his website, his lawyers…. You don’t give a f*ck about Zimmerman, because the people who do could care less what a bunch of people on a black blog care about him. We are not the media, we are not lawyers involved with this case. We are citizens just like you who have a problem with people like you who try to justify the killing of a kid.
I don’t care if he had 10 kilos of crack up his azz and sliced off 8 of Zimmerman’s fingers, the kid shouldn’t have died. Don’t you think his family would rather their kid be in jail for beating up someone other than six feet under? Even if he did do what Zimmerman said he did, his injuries were hardly life threatening and Trayvon wasn’t trying to murder him. It’s easy for you to believe that Trayvon was some black, thug, on a murderous mission to kill a little innocent white/Hispanic/?black? (lol) man protecting and defending his neighborhood. I guess he was thinking, “Oh I guess I will pick up some Skittles for my brother, a can of tea to drink, kill a white man, then come back home and enjoy watching the game!” Please give me a break.
The kid was walking home from the store, in the rain, with his hood up. he was talking on the phone with his girlfriends. His crime: walking while black. If he wasn’t black he would still be alive because Zimmerman wouldn’t have batted an eye. If you can’t admit that then all of your augments are baseless.
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“I blame the parents for letting the young man go out like that especially in a gated community.”
Black kids can’t walk to the store. They get shot by people like Zimmerman and Circusboy.
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“If Zimmerman were black and Trayvon was white…”
I think if Zimmerman had shot Doug instead of Trayvon that you’d be taking Zimmerman’s side.
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I don’t condone murder. Try again.
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Sharina—
There isn’t proof beyond a reasonable doubt that Trayvon threw the first punch. I’ve never said there was. But that’s hardly the applicable legal standard and is entirely backward at a jury trial. In the Florida self defense (whether stand your ground or otherwise) immunity hearing, O’Mara must prove to the judge by a preponderance of the evidence that he shot Trayvon in permissible self defense, if he is to get the criminal prosecution thrown out then, and have immunity from civil wrongful death suit.
However there’s a good lot of circumstantial evidence. Enough to meet that 50.1% burden, and vastly more than needed for a non prejudiced fair jury to refuse to convict on a beyond a reasonable doubt standard. Which I detailed here:
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Preponderance of the evidence is 50.1%.
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@ Doug….I know there is no proof beyond a reasonable doubt that Martin threw the first punch, but I wanted to be sure you realized that. In this link you give me your information is based solely on your belief that Martin started the fight. What you believe and what happened are two different things. You are mixing the two and coming to this you are right conclusion which is biased in its entirety. You are basing your Comprehensive analysis on your prejudice belief of how Martin felt or thought. You don’t know Martin. You don’t know what he was thinking. This post you gave me is irrelevant and proves nothing you are stating it is supposed to prove. This is why I keep saying you have know Idea what you wrote and are pulling smoke out of your butt. Please read your own post. Just read it. I mean nothing but pure speculation all through it. Is this speculation really what passes for proof. You would be kicked out of the courtroom for this mess. As we all know speculation does not equal evidence.
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@ Doug…first of all the quote I used was my opinion, so try again. I know the law because I was the one that quoted it to you. Again several posts too late. I have already explained this same crap to you. I just love how you take things I have posted and try to peddle it as your own. I am cracking up here..
“The two main things different about Florida law is that it has a stand your ground provision, which means there’s not a duty to retreat if you believe someone is about to commit a crime on you, and there’s also a provision that civil suit for wrongful death is barred if at a self defense immunity hearing the judge determines by a preponderance of the evidence (50.1%) that you acted in lawful self defense.”—-Oh by the way Dougy….I have only been quoting Florida law I never once touched any other state. Not even my own, so late again. Never mentioned anything about lawsuits because that does not matter to me.
Based on the law you so happily decided to focus on, Martin had just as much of a right to be there as Zimmerman so again based on your rational both could claim self-defense. Based on your reasoning Martin had the right to stand his ground and beat the living snot out of Zimmerman per the law. He had the right to use deadly force if he believed it necessary.
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@ Doug….I wanted to correct you on something. Zimmerman on the 911 call was in his car the whole time. He did not leave his car until Martin ran and he chased him. He may have followed at a distance once he got off the phone with the 911 operator, but he was not doing that on the 911 call.
And since you like to mention deedee so much. If deedee mentioned that she heard Martin ask Zimmerman “why are you following me?” He had to be close enough for Martin to notice. That is no longer considered following at a distance.
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Sharina–
Zimmerman says through his brother I believe that he was walking back to his car when Trayvon approached him from behind and to the side and demanded according to GZ “you got a problem with me” to which GZ says he replied “no” and started reaching for his phone in his pocket when TM punched him in face hard, breaking his nose, and knocking him to the ground. DeeDee’s says different things were said but it was roughly the same, with DeeDee’s version sounding “cleaned up” to me. BTW I imagine GZ turned to face TM when he began speaking to him.
As for whether GZ was in his car the whole time he was talking to the police dispatcher I don’t think we can know that for sure from what was said. But I think it probable he was on foot at least by the later part of the call because when the dispatcher asked if he was following Trayvon he said yes, and given the layout of the community (I’ve linked to it way above but you can also find it at the wagist.com blog) the only way it’s likely that Zimmerman could find Trayvon after losing sight of him would be if he got on foot and walked the sidewalk to the T intersection with another sidewalk.
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Sharina–
I didn’t lie about having read in the press that Zimmerman walked police through the crime scene events the day after the shooting and haven’t lied about anything else on this thread. You keep accusing me of lying but then never link anything I said that you think is a lie, and showing why you think that.
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@ Doug…You are late once again. If you actually read that quote I said Uncle Milton provided the link. You could not even provide the link, but you claimed it as fact and becasue I asked you several times for the link and you failed to provide it that is when I accused you of lying. That I believe was the first time I started accussing you of lying.
The second reason I have accused you of lying (please take note of this because you are constantly missing it) is because you keep claiming that it is fact that Martin attack Zimmerman based on your knowledge of back men. If you do not know that for a fact or have concrete evidence then you are officially telling a lie. You can’t peddle something as fact you do not know. If you are speculating, then say that. You whole analysis is based on your speculation and once again specualtion is not fact.
If you check that is also when I asked you to provide concrete evidence. You could not.
Thirdly you lie about things you say. One minute you are claiming Zimmerman can not claim “stand your ground” and next you are saying he can. When I brougt that up you were quick to switch position and you did this on different topics at different times. Check my other posts because I copied and past the things you said and the contridiction. I even asked you which part was a lie becasuse you obviously don’t know what you are saying. You refused to comment.
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Sharina—
He had the right to be there yes. He didn’t have right to stand his ground and hit zimmerman first when Zimmerman had done nothing illegal.
He had the right to stand his ground and fight back if Zimmerman hit him first, which there’s no evidence he did (as the prosecution investigator admitted on the stand to O’Mara) or even that Zimmerman hit him at all. The police have made no mention of any injuries on TM other than the gunshot wound, and the funeral director has said there weren’t any to the media.
He didn’t have the right however to bash Zimmerman’s head against the concrete sidewalk repeatedly which could kill him, put him in a coma or give him a severe concussion (the later two of which are great bodily harm), unless Trayvon reasonably feared for his own life if he didn’t. Given that there’s no evidence that Zimmerman hit him at all and that Zimmerman’s gun was concealed at least until the last few seconds before Zimmerman drew it and shot Trayvon well after Trayvon had already broken Zimmerman’s nose and kept bashing his head against the concrete and face with his fists, no he had no right to have been committing that aggravated felony assault on Zimmerman.
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Sharina–
It’s not a prejudiced belief. It’s a belief based on the circumstantial evidence I listed in detail here, and the lack of other evidence. It’s also what Zimmerman said happened but of course he’s got a major stake in all this. How strongly it will seem that it was Trayvon that started the physical fight will depend in part on how consistent Zimmerman’s story is on the big things he can be expected to remember clearly. Who started the fight is certainly something he would remember as would be where he was when it started and so on.
Tryers of fact make inferences on what parties to a possible crime were likely thinking based on evidence including circumstantial evidence all the time, in most trials in fact. In this case the first to do so will be the judge at the Florida self defense immunity hearing, for which no date has yet been set and in fact which O’Mara hasn’t yet filed a motion for.
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@ Doug…I could give a crap what the brother said as the only word that matters in this case is and will continue to be Zimmerman’s. If you listen to the 911 tapes you hear Zimmerman unbuckle his seat belt, open the car door, and start running after Martin (Zimmermans heavy breathing confirms running). This is the where the infomous statement of the operator asking “Are you following him” and “You don’t need to do that.”
Once Zimmerman hangs up that phone you don’t know squat about what happened. This is the same things I keep telling you and you are too dense to even catch on. This is where no one knows what happened. You can speculate all day that Zimmerman started walking back to his car, but you have no concrete evidence. You have nothing!!!!
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Sharina—
Yeah and you were wrong about my lying about that or anything else weren’t you.
You didn’t ask me several time for a link you asked once, not that that matters, but if I were you I’d probably say you were lying about that. I responded that I didn’t remember, but that it might well have been the Orlando Sentinel. I.e. I didn’t feel like doing web research for you. I’d read it some time ago. I have only so much time and doing web research on the same topic yet again to convince you I wasn’t lying wasn’t a priority for me.
You’re more than tiresome and petty minded up the ying yang.
About the only thing you’ve provided is an accurate quote of ONE of the provisions of Florida self defense statutes that may be relevant to this case, which you then proceeding to wrongly analyze and misapply to the known facts.
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@ Doug…You do not know what Zimmerman did Doug. You do not know if he did something illegal or not. Once again a paragraph full of speculations and not facts, but based on that law if Martin did have reasonable fear he could actually claim that stand your ground whether you like it or not. Laws are not made for you to like they are made for you to follow. Sit down relax have tea. If you were a lawyer you would be laughed out of the courtroom right now.
I think your biggest issue is that you feel because I support Martin I must not be looking at the facts or I am going by emotions. I am just not looking at your rendition of facts. I am not prone to having anyone force feed me their ideals and I am not going to sit here and let you do. We don’t have all the information. It is as simple as that. You are making it complicated. Speculation is not evidence.
“it’s not a prejudiced belief. It’s a belief based on the circumstantial evidence listed in detail here, and the lack of other evidence.”—–Doug do you even know why you are prejudice. Are you seriously asking me to respond to this? You are prejudice because you are judging Martin simply because he is black. You know nothing about that young man. You based your analysis on the belief that all black men are a certain way. That is prejudice. Would you like a definition?
“ho started the fight is certainly something he would remember as would be where he was when it started and so on.”—If a persons life depended on who did and who did not start a fight would they not lie? You are once again speculating on Zimmerman. You do not know this man unless you are indeed him.
circumstantial evidence doesn’t really go far in cases. If they did then I can tell you a lot more people would be in jail.
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@ Doug….If you actually checked. When I was wrong I stated I was wrong. I have no problem with it. You do and I have also written several posts on that as well. Try again.
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Sharna–
The brother is obviously relaying Zimmerman’s version of the events, perhaps imperfectly. He wasn’t there, wasn’t on the phone with him at the time and only knows what his brother has told him. For obvious reasons Zimmerman isn’t going to talk directly to reporters, no defense lawyer would let his client do that, although there are indications that Zimmerman wanted to. He did call Hannity up according to Hannity, but Hannity says he promised he wouldn’t repeat what Zimmerman said to him on the air.
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Sharna—
Wrong. You’re just too dim to understand or remember exactly what it is I’ve said.
I said he can claim stand your ground so long as he wasn’t the initial aggressor by doing something illegal to Martin first, such as hitting him first. If he did hit him first, which I don’t believe he did and the prosecutor’s investigator admitted on the stand they have no evidence that he did, then he can’t use stand your ground and would have to retreat IF HE COULD. But he couldn’t.
Though he can’t use the “no duty to retreat” aka stand your ground (in the face of an imminent attack) if he was the one who started the physical fight, he doesn’t need to, to have a valid self defense use of deadly force he doesn’t need to because once Trayvon knocked him to the ground and straddled him and pinned him to the ground he couldn’t retreat.
Eyewitness John and physical evidence at the scene and the 13yo walking his dog saw Trayvon on top of the guy with a red top (Zimmerman) pinning him to the ground, bashing his head against the cement sidewalk, and repeatedly screaming help directly at John while Trayvon kept punching him having already broken his nose. The injuries Zimmerman sustained are consistent with that account as well, as are his wet and grass covered back which the police noted at the scene (his body was on the grass, his head over the sidewalk).
Because Zimmerman could reasonably believe that he was likely to suffer great bodily harm (you can get a severe concussion, a coma, or even death from having your head repeatedly bashed into cement) he was justified in using potentially deadly force in self defense under Florida law even if he started the fight without putting Trayvon’s life in danger, under Florida self defense law.
Understand now??
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@ Abagond
Do you have the address for Bellevue?
Doug needs…a ride….
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@ Doug…I hope you are not a betting man, because not only am I going to show you posts where I said sorry, but I am going to show you the posts where I asked for the links. If you did not feel like looking for the link all you had to do was say that.
“About the only thing you’ve provided is an accurate quote of ONE of the provisions of Florida self defense statutes that may be relevant to this case, which you then proceeding to wrongly analyze and misapply to the known facts”—How was it misapplied to the case? with the little facts that are know do tell me Mr. I am all knowing how it was misapplied to this case. For my wrong information you had not problem taking it and peddling it off on your own. Just because you have little or no understanding of the law do not even remotely try to make me out to be wrong. Just because you can’t just get one over on me and then you decide “oh let me insult her so I can feel like Mr big shot.” I don’t pretend to know everything, but I know what I spent 4 years in school, and 2 years in the profession learning.
You are just a pathetic white man who wants to be right about something and refuses to admit that he does not. It bothers you that someone black knows more that what you thought. You came into this chat with the pure purpose of trying to school us black people and found yourself getting schooled.
“You’re more than tiresome and petty minded up the ying yang. “—Why bother to respond. I had been stop responding to you once I repeatedly proved you wrong by posting your numerous contradictions. If you had actually stop contradicting yourself then I would not have question you, but I did and here you are getting angry because I pointed it out.
What is your point? I am not going to change my position and neither are you so give it a rest and let the evidence do what it do. You are the only one ready to have stroke over this.
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@ Doug…Do I really need to go through the copy and paste of you actual words to show your numerous contradictions? I have done ti before…..I have no problem doing it again. You don’t remember what you say so why get made at me about that. That is a personal issue.
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@ Doug….”Understand now??”
LOL…I think you should be asking yourself that question. Anyone who is making their speculations facts has some serious issues. You are eluding reality. You are recycling things I say and claiming it as your own. If it does not verify Zimmerman’s innocence then you claim I am misapplying the law. LOL you are off your rocker.
They have medicine for that.
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Sharina—
It’s just simply not true that I have a problem admitting I’m wrong about something when I realize it or when someone shows me that I am. I admit that right away. It’s just that no one on this thread that I’ve noticed has shown where I’ve been wrong about the law or the reported facts of this case.
For instance I initially said though I think not on this thread but perhaps that Zimmerman was 5’8” and about 250 lbs., and was therefore obese and unlikely to want to take 6’2” 160lb athletic Trayvon on for that reason among others. I concluded obese from the weight the media were reporting him as having, coming I’m pretty sure from Crump who emphasized that Zimmerman outweighed Trayvon by 100 lbs. As soon as I head Zimmerman’s black friend say GZ weighed about 170lbs I changed what I said, and no longer claimed Zimmerman was obese. He was still six inches shorter however and no athlete.
No one on here has shown me specifically where I’ve been wrong about something or I’d say so. I also don’t consider my conclusions about something to be facts and don’t say they are. Instead I give reasons why I’ve made conclusions.
I will also be looking for how consistent Zimmerman’s statements to police were or weren’t. I don’t expect them to be completely and totally consistent as I explained in a post addressing that, but there are ways of being inconsistent that look like someone is having a hard time remembering all important things about a made up story that should be easy to remember if true. Other things are harder to remember completely accurately. I gave examples. But yes I’ll be reevaluating around that.
I suspect the prosecution is going to try to make hay out of Zimmerman’s maybe having said at least once to the police that he did manage to get his head off the concrete in the course of the struggle and that therefore he could no longer reasonably believe that he was in danger of death, great bodily harm, or a forcible felony if he didn’t shoot him. However Trayvon hadn’t stopped struggling with him and could have gotten his head back above the concrete. You can also die if the bone from a broken nose is shoved by more repeating punching up into your brain. That is taught in some martial arts classes.
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@ Doug…I have showed you several time where you have been wrong. I can’t say for sure, but you seem to feel offended by a black person proving you wrong.
Besides that if you are going by your own speculation and not fact then no matter what I say right or wrong you are not going to listen. You have this elaborate story of poor Zimmerman in your head. You are putting together a puzzle with several missing pieces and guessing what the picture is.
Did you not contradict yourself in your posts?
Not once but twice so far I showed you your contradictions and only one you had an answer for. You still can not explain your contradiction in the other. Check my other posts when I ask you about it and how you ignore it and move on to something irrelevant to my original post.
I made another post on you going in circles and not getting to the point of what I originally asked. Also ignored. Do you see a pattern with you?
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@Sharina
I’m surprised that you are still engaging Doug. I hope the dialogue has been interesting. You will probably not get any answers to your questions from Doug but nothing is wrong with trying. The only way a person can see that they have a problem is when they admit they have a problem. Others-wise it will be the usual run-around.
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@Doug…It makes my day to prove you wrong.
“Wrong. You’re just too dim to understand or remember exactly what it is I’ve said.
I said he can claim stand your ground so long as he wasn’t the initial aggressor ”
“Fri 23 Mar 2012 at 17:09:39 Doug1
Florida has a “stand your ground law”. Under that law you’re allowed to use force including with a firearm if you reasonably believe that your life is in danger or you’re about to suffer a physically violent felony.
If Trayvon Martin was physically beating the Hispanic Zimmerman up as the eye witness reported, then Zimmerman falls within what’s permitted by Florida’s law.”—This is exactly what you said in that post. Now explain to me how I got this wrong. These are the exact words you put in I did not make it up or change a thing. I only copied and paste, so how again am I dim. Ready to admit you are wrong yet? No where do you mention if Zimmerman was the initial aggressor.
Shall I go on?
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Sharina—
I honestly don’t remember any of them and I remember that sort of thing. I might not have read every single one of your comments but I think I have. You’re more into the details than by far most here who side with Team Trayvon and I respect that. Can you link me? Maybe you’ll remember a phase you used that you can put into your browser’s find and find pretty easily?
As for the second sentence, not at all. I don’t enjoy being told I’m wrong in a highly insulting, assuming the worst motives, sort of way from someone of any race, but otherwise nope, not at all. There are no doubt some black people who are smarter than me, not a lot but some, and especially more knowledgeable about some particular subjects. Abagond is the later re: black American history, though not such an even handed truth seeker and teller I don’t think. I’m not saying I know nothing or very little about that, just that it’s a lot more his passion than mine and he’s evidently spent a lot more time on it. I’ve long thought he’s probably an African American or African studies professor at some NY university, though not sure of course.
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@deedee7789
I know I should have gave up a long time ago. It has become so tiring actual giving this guy proof and he has still convinced himself that I never did anything. Its actually quite sad really. I even copied and paste for him so he can see his own words. I guess at this point I need to let him beat his head against a wall.
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Sharina–
You’re not also sometimes calling yourself Sharna are you? At first I didn’t notice the diff., then I did, and also Sharna seems to argue somewhat differently from you.
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Sharina–
The link in your last comment above was to this whole post at the beginning, not to your comment. To link to your comment first click on the date of your comment, and then copy from the web address window to create the link.
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Sharina–
No beating of my head against any wall gonna be happening. No reason for it. That’s delusional.
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@ Doug…This is very tiring. You can spend all day convincing yourself I never said this or said that, but bottom line is it is time stamped right here for you to look at. If you want to take the time to look at that information then feel free to. If you don’t you are happy to continue convincing yourself you are right. I don’t care what you do, but bottom line you need help. I just hate that you would demonize a young man you do not know simply based on your belief that you know black men (this is when I actually got upset).
You have proven yourself to be no better than the people who demonize Zimmerman and not know him, yet I have watched you claim you are better because of your “comprehensive analysis.” I have watched you claim your information is most accurate because of your lack of bias, but all the while you have been completely bias (your bias has been another issue I brought to your attention). Your bias has actually gotten so bad that you had even started twisting my words.
You are not on a higher plain than anyone in this room. Some make emotional statements and some don’t but there an obvious difference between the two and you had this one look on black people and you would be so quick to lump me into that. Each black person is different and it angers me that you can not see that. It angered me that anytime I made a statement you did not like I became the emotional black person who my statements became wrong.
See how your focus on this case made you belittle people and you did not even realize I was angry about your racist and prejudice attitudes and not at all about what you believed Zimmerman was. These are things I tried to point out to you and when I tried to you complain about Crump, Liberal media, and black community. They had nothing to do with it. When that stopped working you decided to make me the incompetent black girl. Did not work either. I don’t need a man on a blog to tell me how intelligent I am. I know I am intelligent. I don’t need the White man’s approval.
—I feel how I feel about this case and at the end of the day…That is what matters. You are becoming very delusional and if you don’t see that…Once again seek help.
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@ Doug one final set of questions? If you did not even know these laws. Why would you spend the whole first part of the blog quoting it as if you knew what it said? Trying to prove others wrong but you really had little idea what that law said?
Did you or did you not contradict yourself in other posts? No, long paragraphs as this is a yes or no question.
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@ doug…You have an excuse for everything just so you will not have to admit where you are wrong. Now you don’t read all posts. Whatever lie of the week floats your boat and makes you feel better.
Seek Help.
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Sharina–
In other words you can’t remotely intellectually compete.
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@ Doug…The thing about it is that I have competed and won and I no longer need to rub it in your face. I have proved my point step by step and you can’t even find the lie to answer the questions.
Each time I confront you on something you make up lie after lie. The latest one being you don’t read all the posts. Ok I will give you that one, but what is your excuse now. I have put in two questions for you and you still do not have the balls to answer. Go think of a lie. I will give you time, but bottom line is. I no longer need to prove my superiority.
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You are black delusional which isn’t unusual in this case.
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@ Doug
“In other words you can’t remotely intellectually compete.”—I guess in the past you have proved your intellect based on people quitting and getting tired of explaining things to you on a daily basis. P-A-T-H-E-T-I-C.
You must be lonely. As I may have stated previously. If you want people to say you are right, then go to the other boards where they put up little to no effort to challenge you.
Once again you are insulting me to avoid answering the question. I guess you figure if we go in a back and forth fight you can bring up the trial and Zimmerman and not have to own up to anything or answer any of the questions I have asked. Ok go ahead. I know me and you do, so do what makes you feel better about yourself. Bottom line it is another ploy to avoid answering the questions.
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@ Doug…”You are black delusional which isn’t unusual in this case.”
Again you are avoiding the question. I am also beginning to believe you have a split personality, but that can be discussed some other time.
The only delusions going on here is you. You have been delusional this whole thread, but hey you will not admit it if it means you are wrong and a black person proved you such.
They have hospitals for that.
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@ Doug….
circusboy9010 has the same opinions as you and he also has more of my respect than you. He managed all that and did not have to use big words to get it. The reason being is that circusboy9010 did not constantly contradict himself like you. He answered my questions when he could and he moved on to state his opinions. I did not agree, but I admired that he was not saying one thing and changing it in another post saying another. You could learn a lot from him. Hell you can actually learn a lot from duckduckgroofs. You were so quick to tell him he was wrong instead of hearing what he had to say. Both have my respect.
You don’t simply because you are ignorant and you are not even man enough to address the simple questions. You can use as many words as you want to make you sound more educated than you are, but it does not change the fact that you have issue and that you have been wrong.
Stop blaming black people because you are wrong. Man up and own your mistakes. I wouldn’t be throwing them in your face so much if you did.
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Sharina–
So if you’re not going to actually competently link to a prior comment of yours that proves I was either wrong or lying, but still claim the same, even after I’ve told you in detail how to actually link to your particular comment, don’t expect me to comment on it. You fail.
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@Sharina
“Again you are avoiding the question. I am also beginning to believe you have a split personality, but that can be discussed some other time.
The only delusions going on here is you. You have been delusional this whole thread, but hey you will not admit it if it means you are wrong and a black person proved you such.
They have hospitals for that.”
Don’t indulge him, It’s pretty obvious he’s set in his way and nothing .. no matter how wrong he might be will change his mind.
@Doug
“You are black delusional which isn’t unusual in this case.”
But I’m not black, and even I side with her against you. You’re in the wrong, the more you defend a murderer the less credibility you have, but once you hit this thread you had none whatsoever.
Just quit it.
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Sharina–
I’ve read and heard it said at smart sites that smart people find it very difficult to talk to a lot less smart people on any intellectually involved subject when the difference in IQ’s is 15 points or one standard deviation or more. I’ve always thought that exaggerated and thought the gap (though there’s gonna be a gradation of difficulty) in mutual respect and intelligibility would more likely occur after about 25 points difference, or almost two standard deviations (do you even know what that means?)
Well whatever. I’m quite sure that’s present here, at whatever IQ gap. And not just with you. You’re actually one of the smarter blacks on this thread. Abagond is the smartest I think. You just don’t get it, and are racially insulting in self defense against relative dimness. Seems to me.
I mean I have patiently and endless explained the law relative to the facts in this case and you just either can’t or refuse out of black solidarity prejudice to get it.
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@ Doug…
Remember how you told me I am not going to search for it for you when it came to that link about where Zimmerman walked police through the crime scene? Well I am not going to search for those answer for you. I have already wasted enough time on you copying and pasting your exact words and putting in a question for you to answer. Here you are still acting like you don’t see them. Why should I waste more time re-copying and re-pasting the same crap and already did in several time. Already asked you the same questions you ignored. Several times. You did not answer them then and you are not going to answer them now. I put in the leg work. No, I did not use links I just did old fashion copy and paste.
In the end YOU FAIL. You are consistently failing and looking for excuses. I guess you figure the longer it take me to look for it the longer it takes you to come up with a lie. Only catch is I have already pasted the information.
One of the questions I asked:
Do you not contradict yourself in posts that you make?
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@ Doug…
“I mean I have patiently and endless explained the law relative to the facts in this case and you just either can’t or refuse out of black solidarity prejudice to get it.”—What you have done was speculate the laws based on what you thought might have happened. You used some facts, but places where there was none you just put in your thoughts and tried to hide it under the radar as facts.
You have managed to do nothing, but bring about a ring of confusion that you are constantly back peddling on. I can copy and paste that information for you as well, you have an issue with actually analyzing information.
When you are confronted with anything it is the black people fault. MAN UP. Be a man for once in your life and stop blaming others for your follies.
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Yawn–
Far leftist, he isn’t a murderer, he acted in valid self defense.
Trayvon was threatening at least great bodily harm if not death.
Open and shut case if not for the threat of back rioting.
Plain as day.
I kinda think this judge does have enough balls, but aren’t sure.
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Sharina–
You already found it probably using my advice as to how to easily on this thread, according to you, you just incompetently linked it. Unless all that from you was a lie. So having found it once, presumably easily with my advice, you should be able to find it again even more easily in the restricted domain of this thread, and now according to my advice, competently as opposed to incompetently (dumb ass), link it.
But you know I’ll beat the hell out of you intellectually if you do. You just can’t remotely intellectually compete, except as to emotionally appealing to the black peanut gallery around here, which is hardly intellectually.
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@ Yawn…The thing for me is I am incomplete disbelief that anyone could be that delusional. I mean I really can not believe that he can be looking at things I wrote and still convinces himself he never got it or he never read it. I mean that is the new one because before he would ignore it, so I guess that is a step up.
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Sharina–
Calling me ignorant is a laugh riot. I know more about world history and genetics and many other subjects than any commenters on this site. I’m tres smart. The only black on here who is kinda smart is Abagond.
Calling someone “ignorant” was and is a cultural Marxist / new left meme for calling them non compliant with leftist dogma. Pure and simple, end of story.
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@ @ Doug….I never took your advice on the linking things as I stated in that post. I actually just copied and paste.
“But you know I’ll beat the hell out of you intellectually if you do. You just can’t remotely intellectually compete, except as to emotionally appealing to the black peanut gallery around here, which is hardly intellectually.”—Trying to belittle me does not change the fact that you did not answer my question. Still need to man up. You are getting mad over something so simple. Goes to show you are losing your cool and before long you are going to either have to man up or shut up.
DO YOU NOT CONTRADICT YOURSELF IN POSTS?
If you can answer that then I will go and get the information for you. If you can’t….I WIN AGAIN. 🙂
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@ Doug…”world history and genetics and many other subjects than any commenters on this site. I’m tres smart.”—I never pretended to know much about those things, but that does not make you tres smart because you still can’t comprehend the subject matter at hand.
I see you are good at making up stories and pretending. You should write a book or act. Do you get much attention because ever since I told you about the things that make me angry you have been trying your best to do it just to get me to respond to you?
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Whatever.
Out for now at least.
Other things to do.
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@ douglas
Wow!!!!
Still at it, eh?
Poor baby…….no valium left?
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@ Doug…Give a little…Get a little and until you can answer that simple question I no longer have anything to say to you. You can bounce responsibility of finding the information back and forth all day, but bottom line is I proved what I needed to.
I find it funny that you put so much pressure on me to find this and you could not be bother to find something I politely asked for earlier (article of Zimmerman walking police through crime scene). You should be asking yourself why should I bother.
Anyway it is bed time for the kiddies, so I will have that information ready for you tomorrow as soon as you can answer my question.
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Oh Great. Now he runs away when I come at him direct with the question. If that is all it took to shut him up I should have done that a long time ago.
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Did your graduate from Stanford with honors?
Did you graduate from a top five law school on law review?
Did you move over into the finance side of wall street a few years after working for a NYC highest paying BigLaw firm?
I did, With zero affirmative action.
I’ve come into the black racially attacking camp at one of it’s headquarters. And you lot can’t do squat against me except by emotional unsupported arguments.
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Now out for reals tonight.
Will be back though. Not tonight.
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@ Doug…I never claimed to have graduated from Stanford or any of the top law schools. Check back on my post and it show you what i actually did though. i am not a big wiz when it comes to finances, but another thing I did not claim.
I can’t speak in regards to affirmative action because don’t know if I was hired based on that or not. I would say my 4.0 grade average made an outstanding difference in there choice to hire me, plus I got the job due to a white friend I knew, who was buddy buddy with one of the attorneys in the office. The thing you fail to realize about affirmative action though is you must have the experience to be hired. If you are black and don’t know squat about finances they will not hire you. That is white racist delusions.
Oh so now you are a lawyer? Interesting.
“And you lot can’t do squat against me except by emotional unsupported argument”—LOL if it is so unsupported then why is it so hard to answer the question. It is like pulling teeth over such a simple question. It is yes or no. Don’t need to analyze.
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@ Sharina:
You are doing a fine job of dismantling Doug’s posts. 😉 Btw, try to take everything Doug comments with a grain of salt. A lawyer, huh? Doug reminds me of another commenter circusboy9010 aka Miguel Miquel who claims he had not one, but SEVEN PhDs! Imagine that? And they have nothing better to do with their time except to be argumentative?
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@ Sharina,
Well Doug’s response is ridiculous. He got plenty of affirmative action. It’s called “being white”.
That little quip was just the death knell of his argument. He couldn’t keep up with you.
@ Leigh,
I don’t believe he did any of those things, especially since he doesn’t conduct himself like a lawyer, and he doesn’t handle opposing arguments with tact or mature reasoning.
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@ Sharina
Doug is delusional. He has no intellectual honesty. Talking to him is a waste. It is like talking to a madman in the subway.
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@leigh204, Ace, Abagond…I am more in disbelief than anything. I have never in my life met anyone that is remotely that delusional. It just amazes me that he feels the way he does out black people and still comes to this board on a daily basis.
A padded cell is too good for him. He reminds me of the mad hatter.
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Sharina,
I must say, you deserve an award for actually trying to converse with Doug–the poster child of ‘An exercise in Futility’.
God bless you for trying to reach out to the dark side but as you can see 100+ posts later, he refuses to walk towards the light.
You’d probably have more luck teaching a hamster how to use and flush the toilet than getting Doug to be honest.
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@ Linda…He actually seemed rational at first. I blame myself really for letting it go on this long with him. I should have ended it a long time ago when he first could not answer my question. It is good to see how crazy some people really are though. I thought racists were mild, but dang he surprised the heck out of me.
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http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/01/2778234/myspace-page-is-latest-salvo-in.html
“Zimmerman’s crude MySpace page from 2005 uncovered”
Hmm. He called a woman a “ex-ho”. He makes rude comments about Mexicans who he equates to “wanna be thugs” all while using slang. Zimmerman is indeed turning out to be a complex (and cocky) man. As I figured, he was no saint.
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none of that matters, the only thing that matters is he was on his back getting his head beat into the concrete. that alone gives him the right to have killed whoever it was no matter what their race creed or color. it does not even matter who started the fight. read the law.
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@ circusboy9010
You are right. To me that does not matter, but you should read your law because Martin had just as much right. If Martin feared for his life from Zimmerman then he had the right to stand his ground.
Also I find it funny that you see it as ok to demonize Martin, but a complete upset to demonize Zimmerman. Another tidbit if his character is called into question that myspace page is going to be the nail in the coffin.
“In any other place where a person “has a right to be,” that person has “no duty to retreat” if attacked and may “meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.”—Per this law Martin had a right to be there. Granted so did Zimmerman. If attacked Martin had the right to meet force with force and has the right to go so far as deadly force if he felt that it would protect himself from major harm.
Unless you can say you know for a fact that Zimmerman did not attack Martin first then you have no claim. Zimmerman can not claim this and you should be asking yourself why….If his actions were so noble then he should be able to right.
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@ Deedee
So much for Saint Zimmerman. LOL.
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@circusboy9010
I have seen the law and the “aggressor” law does not make someone free from persecution, ergo, it can still be seen as criminal, so it does matter who started the fight. I have already listed the statute that indicates what would make Zimmerman immune from persecution and the only law that he can apply if self-defense which doesn’t include the “aggressor” law by the way. Just wait for the rest of the evidence because nothing supports if he did or did not fear for his life at this point.
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@Sharina
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-03/news/os-trayvon-martin-circles-george-zimmerman-20120503_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-source-police-department
An article about the inconsistencies of Zimmerman’s testimony. It is almost like what you and the other commenter have been discussing. Very interesting, it shows what I have figured for the longest, Zimmerman has not been completely honest.
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Sharina, Abagond—
Some more “delusional” commentary on this prosecution. Yeah right.
Trayvon did have the right to stand his ground if Zimmerman hit him first, and had the right to fight back and win the fight. In such a case Trayvon wouldn’t be guilty of assault and battery. However he didn’t have the right to use so much force against Zimmerman so as to be potentially deadly or put Zimmerman at risk of great bodily harm, which breaking his nose and continuing to beat him in the face while keeping him from escaping by pinning him to the ground, and also pounding GZ’s head against the cement sidewalk.
More importantly, even if Zimmerman is assumed arguendo to have started the physical right, while he couldn’t then rely on stand your ground and would have to try to flee before using potentially deadly force, if he couldn’t flee because pinned to the ground by Trayvon as seen by eyewitness john who saw the fight by far the longest and was the closest, he is permitted to use potentially deadly force if he had a reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily harm. Since having your head repeatedly pounded against cement can give you a serious concussion, a coma, or even kill you, Zimmerman had the right to shoot Trayvon when he did.
That is true even if Zimmerman started the fighting, for which there’s no evidence at all, and considerable circumstantial evidence against as I detailed HERE , even though in that case Trayvon could stand his ground and fight back (up to a point of severity) without committing a crime.
I will once again quote the relevant Florida self defense statue in the event that we assume, despite circumstantial evidence to the contrary, that Zimmerman started the physical fight.
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deedee–
The police say he was very consistent on the important points. Some of the claimed inconsistencies by Crump aren’t. Just because Zimmerman said to police the Trayvon had his hands over his nose and mouth when he was on the ground and the screams for help weren’t muffled (the ones that were heard on the 911 tapes anyway) doesn’t mean TM had his bands over Zimmerman’s mouth the whole time he was screaming.
As for it being inconsistent that Zimmerman was scared about a confrontation
when TM circled his vehicle and stared at him and so rolled up his windows doesn’t mean he wouldn’t follow or try to find TM at a distance so he could tell police where he has when they arrived.
Zimmerman may have big inconsistencies. We haven’t seen the police transcripts or tapes of their questioning him and neither has O’Mara. I just haven’t read about any significant or suspicious making inconsistencies yet, and the Sanford police saw none.
As for the special prosecutor bring this case we all know she was appointed to do so and basically ordered politically to do so and wanted to herself to get re-elected. There were credible veiled and not so veiled threats of black rioting in Florida if she didn’t.
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I saw this a long time ago but thought I’d link it anyway. A guy at the blog wagist (which I think but aren’t sure tends to be fairly liberal) has researched the hell out of the facts of this case. One thing he’s uniquely done is to get a map of the gated community I think off google earth, calculate distances, and also time various moments in Zimmerman’s call to the police dispatcher. He develops what he thinks the most likely routes each of Trayvon and Zimmerman took and when they were where.
BTW it looks like Zimmerman at first thought Trayvon had gone out the back entrance to the complex which is why he went to spot labeled E on the map which I think this guy could tell from GZ’s police call.
http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/evidence-that-trayvon-martin-doubled-back
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@ Doug
Wagist as a source? Really? Are you like on drugs? Or is this whole thing some kind of huge joke for you? You dishonour Stanford.
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tm had no reason to fear for his life, also he could have been involved in the felonious criminal activity of casing peoples homes for robbery. following a perp is not illegal. however if you feel tm was justified in attacking gz then gz was definatly justified in killing tm , wether or not tm was armed has nothing to do with the law. read part 2a which starts by stating a person initiating a fight has no right to stand their ground , unless. that is the biggest word there, unless they are in fear of their life, so no matter who started the fight gz was both percieving his imminent death, & being bodily harmed. if gz is found guilty the worst case should be manslaughter, & he would only be found guilty because of political pressures and not any real amount of justice.
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@ Abagond
Dougie is , like, one step away from the admittance office at Bellevue.
Ignore him.
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@dee dee no the law clearly states it does not matter who started the fight . read it again and see the word UNLESS.
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@ Sharina
Doug needs a valium, xanax, lithium rum cock-tail.
His obesssion with this child is…weird..
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Abagond
Wagist as a source for analysis and good map work, sure. Guy there has done a ton detailed fact filled work on this case. What’s wrong with them?
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Oh and linehan and I think Trayvon actually doubled back to Zimmerman twice.
The first time was after Zimmeran had stopped his truck at location C so as to be able to see Trayvon as he walked down the sidewalk headed in the direction of E. It seems fairly soon after Trayvon started down that sidewalk he double back and circled GZ’s parked truck according to GZ as reported in the Orlando Sentinel article that DeeDee linked (and which I’d seen before). Then he seems to have started back down the sidewalk leading to the perpendicular one which he then likely went down headed to where he was staying at location D.
From the angles he would have lost sight of Trayvon before he got to that perpendicular sidewalk. GZ said on his police call that he thought Trayvon was going out the back entrance to the gated community location E so Zimmerman went there first to look down the street outside that sidewalk exit.
Linehan thinks Trayvon got all the way to D not long after Zimmerman ends his call, assuming Trayvon continued to “run” or job. Even if he changed to fast walking he’d have gotten close by then.
The shot was fired two or three minutes later iirc.
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This case is all about black race rabble rousing, complicit MSM race pandering and their great white defendant sought for narrative, first brought to wide public attention by Tom Wolfe in his great book “Bonfire of the Vanities” (lousy movie but great book). Lots of similarities to this case in fact.
On present publicly available evidence GZ shouldn’t have been charged (he was arrested by any popular non Florida understanding of that word). On the same he should have this criminal prosecution dismissed at a Florida self defense immunity hearing before the judge only, where if O’Mara can prove by a preponderance of the evidence (50.1%) to the judge that Zimmerman acted in valid self defense under Florida law, not only will the criminal prosecution be thrown out, but he will also have immunity from any civil wrongful death civil suit, which is Crump’s hoped for payday.
Of course if new evidence to the contrary emerges I’m prepared to change my analysis and opinion.
I think the two things the prosecution will most try to advance is that 1) Zimmerman has been too inconsistent to be believed in anything, and 2) that he’d managed to get his head over grass not concrete shortly before the shooting so he no longer had a reasonable belief that he faced imminent danger of great bodily harm. As to the last, even if that’s convincing as to what happened from GZ’s many recountings to the police, TM could very well get his head over the sidewalk again. He hadn’t stopped beating GZ until the shot we know from John.
I think 2) is a loser, but as to 1), well I’ll just have to see. Nothing yet that’s publicly out there remotely arises to that level of purported inconsistency. The Sanford police say he was consistent on all the important points through many rounds of questioning without a lawyer. The special prosecutor had to charge Zimmerman for political reasons we all know if we’re even remotely honest.
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Doug, correct me if I am wrong, but…
Isn’t the title of this blog post “Should George Zimmerman be arrested”?
If it is, then why post this information here? Shouldn’t it go to the Open Topic section or another relevant section? I mean, after all, Zimmerman was indeed arrested. It’s kind of a moot point now, eh?
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@circusboy9010
“776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—
(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).”
http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2011/776.032
776.041 Use of force by aggressor. IS NOT listed as a law that would give Zimmerman immunity from persecution.
@doug1111
That is assuming that Zimmerman has been telling the entire truth which cannot be determined with what little evidence has been released. We cannot assume what happened. PLEASE let the courts do there job and wait for future evidence to be released.
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@ circusboy
“m had no reason to fear for his life, also he could have been involved in the felonious criminal activity of casing peoples homes for robbery. following a perp is not illegal.”—Show me something that actually says that he was involved in the felonious act. You have nothing and your comment is speculation as you do not know what Martin was doing. Your comment is about as logical as me saying you look like a racist who is going to commit a hate crime, so I should follow you, approach you, shoot you, and claim self defense. OK.
“following a perp is not illegal.”—never said following someone is illegal. Hell rapist follow their victims before they rape them, but once that rapist takes action that female has every right to defend herself.
“Read part 2a which starts by stating a person initiating a fight has no right to stand their ground , unless. that is the biggest word there, unless they are in fear of their life, so no matter who started the fight gz was both percieving his imminent death, & being bodily harmed.”–You keep complaining about reading part 2(a). I think you need to consider learning to read and then try reading part 2(a) again. You keep only stating the first half and ignoring the part that says “and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant.” Think about what that means. I will not put my commentary on it until you have had time to think about it.
“If gz is found guilty the worst case should be manslaughter, & he would only be found guilty because of political pressures and not any real amount of justice.”– -I have stated on other boards that I feel it should be manslaughter and not second degree murder. As for politics that is a different subject altogether and not going to get into that on this board.
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As I’ve said repeatedly before, the same issues apply now as did when there was heated controversy as to whether George Zimmerman should be arrested.
I think he was for political / Florida black riot reasons entirely.
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The racism on this thread and at this blog is overwhelmingly black anti-white racism,and blog proprietor Abagond is a leader in that.
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I am kinda surprised that he hasn’t banned my reasonable, measured, attacks on instances of black rampant racial prejudice on here, but I half respect that, and half think he figures for his black and rabid white leftist fellow travellers, I’m gonna hang myself in their view. I haven’t of course by any reasonable view, but that would cut out most of Abagond’s followers.
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No it isn’t assuming Zimmerman has been telling the entire truth.
It’s nuance, not either or.
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Doug, you have a Zimmerman/Martin conspiracy board in your basement, don’t you?
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@ Doug…You assume people are racist because they are treating you like crap. You have been treating everyone including the white posters on here like crap and then in turn want some type of respect. You get respect when you earn it and you have not done that. You have managed to isolate yourself from people who even feel the same way you do on this thread simply because of your own ignorance.
Look up racism. You so far are the only one claiming some kind of massive superiority over the black posters. That is racism.”—You have you just don’t realize it. You hung yourself with me when you couldn’t even answer a simple question. Still managed to avoid answer it, but then again I was warned about that.
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O.o …o.O…-_-“…nothing to see here…except a train-wreck.
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@deedee
LOL.
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In terms of this subject, it is a waste of time and energy for any commenter to provide facts, debate and converse with certain commenters.
The core foundation of their beliefs is that young black people are ALL on the pathway to criminality by very definition of their hue such is their inbred fear.
I enjoy people treading roughshod over these people but I urge you, dont get sucked in to their nonsense. See it for what it is, a young person cut down in their prime unecessarily and know that for the most part these indivduals are breathing a sigh of relief that another PoC is no longer….
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Most not all of the frequent white posters on this particular thread have been extreme leftists, like Sam (who I do believe is a white Finn) and JT, who I doubt is white though he’s says he is a few times. Why the difference”? Nuance and intuition based on many small signals. We humans work that way, some of us more accurately tuned than others. I’m not positive JT is black but I think he is, still. Might be a mixed person though, who identifies largely as black.
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@ Doug
It is quite possible that people disagree with you not because they are black or left-wing or brainwashed or emotional or suffer from some other such disorder but simply because you are WRONG. Given that you use Wagist, I would say that is extremely likely.
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@ SomeGuy
I would rather the debate stay here. It would clutter the Open Thread and it is better than when I had several active Trayvon threads and the debate got split up.
If Doug wants to write a 500-word summary of his position I will put it up as a guest post. Speaking as a moderator, that would be useful: this thread has become too long for its own good.
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@ abagond,
This thread ending is devestating news[/sarcasm]: at least soften the blow by writing a “Trayvon’s lawyer, Krump, is responsible for George Zimmerman being villified thread.”
It’s not Zimmerman’s relying on right-wing dingbats to fund his defense case nor his 2005 myspace page loaded with racial epiphets against mexicans (http://www.wistv.com/story/18063156/old-george-zimmerman-myspace-page-surfaces) nor his stalking nor shooting of a young boy nor his ever-evolving CONTRIVED story (http://www.newser.com/story/145424/zimmerman-trayvon-martin-circled-my-car.html) nor his lack of anything remotely resembling serious bodily injury like he claimed resulted from this so-called “severe beating” (http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/03/29/george-zimmerman-shows-no-sign-of-injury-in-video-taken-after-killing/) nor his lack of sincere repentance (http://drlillianglass.com/body-language-blog/2012/04/20/george-zimmermans-monotone-and-lame-apology-to-trevoyns-parents-may-hurt-him-and-gives-insight-into-zimmermans-character/) that make him look shady.
” It’s KRUMP’s fault” thread would be priceless. Zimmerman can’t get a fair trial because of that big bad Krump and the LAMEstream media.
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http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-04/news/os-george-zimmerman-legal-defense-fund-20120503_1_legal-defense-funds-legal-costs-o-mara
^
Who is donating mass amounts of money to help Zimmerman?
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@ Abagond
Over 1,300 responses….mostly to condemn Trayvon of his own death.
Wow.
God Bless AmericKKKa.
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been seeing more and more rational black folk who are recognizing tm for the criminal he was. strange the breaking and enterings have stopped since his death.
@truthbehidden what’s to love about a criminal who attacked a man who was merely looking for the welfare of his neighborhood? it does not matter who attacked who , stand your ground still apply’s to his innocence. racism is mostly kept alive by black people so they have an excuse for not trying.
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@ Someguy
“Doug, you have a Zimmerman/Martin conspiracy board in your basement, don’t you?”
LMAO! He should just ask the guy out on a date already.
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To circusboy and Doug, rational black folk are those that agree with them.
Circusboy, let me ask you something? Where are you getting this information from? You know, that Trayvon was a criminal?
And if you think that racism is kept alive by black people because they don’t try, you’re not as brilliant as you see yourself.
No one with so many degrees would say the dumbest things you’ve said. So, those Ph. Ds you claim to have only exist in your own mind.
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from facts, trayvon was caught with women s jewelry and a burglars tool. you just don’t want to see the truth , because you probably are a closet racist and you overcompensate buy kissing black cultures collective ass. al sharpton & jeesse jackson keep racism alive where it is really dead,. it’s not dumb just because it does not line up with your brainwashed preconceived notions.
gm was the killer ??? self defense is not murder . just because a person kills another person it does not make them guilty of murder quit drinking the cool aide. non of this racist bs matters, nor does it matter who hit who first stand your ground still counts for gz. read the law line by line and word by word, it is there in plain English , unless is the key word.
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no a rational person would not bring race into this, and they would also read the law which states it does not matter who threw the first punch. read the law and remember the key word UNLESS.
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“Delusional, you are.”
-Yoda
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Racism is kept alive by black people so they have an excuse for not trying? Racism is kept alive by white people like you so that you can keep advancing in life while being a complete moronic, idiot! You look like someone with a chromosome disorder so I will try to be a little more tolerant until Abagond boots your mentally challenged azz.
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Racism is kept alive by white men and white women. Each are arguably as bad in their own ways at maintaining the system that oppresses Blacks. MiguelMiguel aka drunkcircusboy might not see it but that doesn’t mean that its not there. Its is quite apparent to those of us that don’t see through blurry vision, or get some sort of sick pleasure from talking about how he has hired and fired “1000s” (as you put it) of Black men. With that type of early childhood conditioning and subsequent distorted vision, I am surprised you’ve made it along this long without needing a helmet to walk to and fro.
Truth.
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oh and how about those 7 phDs of yours. How are they working out at the circus?
People in glass houses should not be throwing bricks.
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@ circusboy9010…
What black people are you referring to. I for one never said I agreed with what you were saying. Fact: I noticed that you have managed to not be able to read or comprehend anything I said. So much for those invisible PHDs
Now tell me when was it Martin was found with burglary tools. Oh that is right never. He was found with a screw driver which police assumed was a burglary tool. He was found with jewelry that was not reported stolen by anyone.
Do me a favor and start getting your information straight. You make yourself look more and more like a fool every time you post.
“read the law line by line and word by word, it is there in plain English , unless is the key word.”—You can’t even read the law so it is funny you are trying to quote it or even tell someone else to read it. You are reading a part of the law honey and that is not the whole law.
Define racism. When you are done with that then we can move on to show your complete idiocy.
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@ circusboy9010
“no a rational person would not bring race into this, and they would also read the law which states it does not matter who threw the first punch. read the law and remember the key word UNLESS.”—Oh do tell where the law says that. Quote it. So you are basically saying that Zimmerman threw the first punch but he is allowed to self-defense or are you saying that if Martin threw the first punch he is allowed to self-defense. LOL… too stupid.
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yes sharina, the words after the unless , pertaining to if gz threw the first puch are unless Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; . so you see it does apply to zimmerman even ifhe did throw the first punch.
nothing else matters, the racism, the following, the profiling, the hoody. the only part that counts is someone banging another persons head on the sidewalk. that allows zimmerman deadly force. read the law sharina . the only one too stupid is you for not reading the law and understanding emg;ish . someone else (a tm supporter) posted a different law concerning law enforcement response which is not applicable here as they have a different burden of proof than a citizen.
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sharina it is not foolish to read the law , it’s in plain english no legalese , & plainly states gz is innocent no matter who threw the first punch.
so your telling me that if you are found in a store with merchandise and no receipt you are not a thief?? the jewelry does not have to have been reported stolen to be stolen because the victim might not have had time to report it stolen. a screwdriver can be a burglars tool, a person can remove a door knob withit. having a burglars tools is evidence of theft right there , it’s called defacto theft.
you call me more of a fool the closer the truth comes to home & you can’t handle that. facts are scary for you for some odd reason. the little motherfucker is a criminal and you can’t handle it because your probably subliminally still operating off of tm 4 year old photo, thinking he is mama’s little angel. when in reality he is a grown full blown thug. recent reports have shown burglary rates have dropped since then.
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(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
amazing read the words after the little (a) having your head beat against the sidewalk fits both parts of this qualifier. gz is an innocent man. . this is not me being a gz supporter. it is supporting the letter of the law.
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@ circusboy9010
Now read that again slowly and let it sink in for you. Obviously not and I love how you just quoted have of that law. Also no where in that law does it says it does not matter who started it.
The law you are quoting refers to the aggressor, so you are agreeing Zimmerman is the aggressor. With him being the said as the aggressor the law is stating he can not claim stand your ground or self defense if he is :(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony;—This is what I mean by read the full law idiot. You read part of it. You just got it WRONG.
Ok lets take a look at part (a) since you believe it qualifies him so much. Let’s say Zimmerman approached Martin and they got into a fight. Zimmerman per that law needed to have exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant. Once you take that in we can move on. I don’t like to make people look stupid all at once.
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then there is #1 if tm was escaping from casing houses then he had no rights.
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@ circusboy9010
“sharina it is not foolish to read the law , it’s in plain english no legalese , & plainly states gz is innocent no matter who threw the first punch.”—Tell me where the law says that because the law you quoted so far was enough evidence to prove you wrong and stupid.
“So your telling me that if you are found in a store with merchandise and no receipt you are not a thief?? the jewelry does not have to have been reported stolen to be stolen because the victim might not have had time to report it stolen. a screwdriver can be a burglars tool, a person can remove a door knob withit. having a burglars tools is evidence of theft right there , it’s called defacto theft. “—For starter when Martin was shot he was found with skittles and Ice tea. So tell me how he was in the commission of a crime at the time? The example you did does not apply to this case. Try again. Also making up legal terms does not make it legal.
“you call me more of a fool the closer the truth comes to home & you can’t handle that. facts are scary for you for some odd reason. the little motherfucker is a criminal and you can’t handle it because your probably subliminally still operating off of tm 4 year old photo, thinking he is mama’s little angel. when in reality he is a grown full blown thug. recent reports have shown burglary rates have dropped since then.”—-I think you are having trouble processing the facts. Heck you are having trouble processing period. I for one have always refered to Martin as a young man. Never once said he was a boy and by the way. I have seen some pictures of him older so there goes your little boy theory.
LOL…Sooooo stupid.
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no sharna I’m not agreeing on who started it , I’m saying that if gz started it.
it does not matter who the aggressor.
someone sitting on your chest beating your head into the pavement does not allow any way to escape. however a person should not have to run and make themselves a mark for aggression in the future.
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@ circusboy9010
“then there is #1 if tm was escaping from casing houses then he had no rights.”—-Keyword is “If”.. and if you had half a brain you would know that. LOL.
Whoever told you you were smarter than a fifth grader needs to be fired. And the person who issued your Ph. Ds. You might want to ask them for your money back. Invest in common sense next time. LOL
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Racism Is Mostly Kept Alive By Black People So They Have An Excuse For Not Trying.
Racism is mostly kept alive so white racist drunkards can keep the liqour companies in business.
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“read the law sharina . the only one too stupid is you for not reading the law and understanding emg;ish”—- I have been trying to get you to read the law for several posts now. Nothing has been more stupid than you trying to explain the law and can barely read it let alone write a sentence in English.
“someone else (a tm supporter) posted a different law concerning law enforcement response which is not applicable here as they have a different burden of proof than a citizen.”—You are the most stupidest man alive I do declare. No one posted any laws in here regarding law enforcement, so what are you even talking about. All laws posted in here have pertained to self-defense and nothing more. This is why once again I am telling you to learn to read.
You should not be discussing this case with a group of people that are far beyond your iq. You can not even keep up with the conversation. You as so far out there that you have no idea what you are saying or what is going on. You keep try to quote a law you can not even comprehend.
Do you even know why Zimmerman supporters are trying to prove or saying he did not throw the first punch moron? Because if he did he can not claim self defense. The law would not support him.
You are arguing for Zimmerman yet are too stupid to realize that you are pretty much proving the point of Zimmerman is the aggressor. You quoted a law supporting the idea that Zimmerman was the aggressor. Do you realize that if he is then he can only claim self-defense for part 2(b). He can not claim it under 2 (a) because he would have actually had to attempt to leave with out harming Martin.
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circusboy,
You’ve just said each and every stock response to racism that typical person clouded by whiteness would say.
I asked you’ “Where are you getting this information from? You know, that Trayvon was a criminal?”
You said, “from facts, trayvon was caught with women s jewelry and a burglars tool. you just don’t want to see the truth , because you probably are a closet racist and you overcompensate buy kissing black cultures collective ass. al sharpton & jeesse jackson keep racism alive where it is really dead,. it’s not dumb just because it does not line up with your brainwashed preconceived notions.”
What facts? From where? What sources?
This is followed by the usual whitewashed responses to race and black people.
You continued, ” gm was the killer ??? self defense is not murder . just because a person kills another person it does not make them guilty of murder quit drinking the cool aide.
First off, there’s something called run-on sentences. Learn it. Second, taking a life for whatever reason is murder no matter what, even if it was for protection. And third, protection from what? Zimmerman had a gun. The kid was unarmed.
Moving on, you said, “non of this racist bs matters, nor does it matter who hit who first stand your ground still counts for gz. read the law line by line and word by word, it is there in plain English , unless is the key word.”
It’s amazing. You continue to humiliate yourself as if your picture on the right wasn’t stupid-looking enough. Let me ask you something that I’ve asked others who’ve made responses similar to yours: If Trayvon was white or white-hispanic and George was black, would you still say the same thing? After all, you said race doesn’t matter. Be honest.
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Circusboy—
On that part you’re mistaken if Zimmerman hit Trayvon first. Stand your ground is then unavailable, and Zimmerman did have a duty to retreat if he could without great risk to himself before using potentially deadly force.
However in the quite well established facts of this case (though it’s always possible new evidence will surface), as soon as Zimmerman was knocked to the ground and pinned there and well before he shot Trayvon, he was unable to retreat. So he doesn’t need stand your ground.
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I guess around here in this super hostile environment I need to say that of course there are some things which aren’t very well established in this case, such as who started the physical fight, but other things that are, such as what happened soon after the fight began.
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@circusboy9010
Let me dumb it down for you because you are too dumb to comprehend otherwise.
If you look like a racist and my husband decides to confront you. You take a swing on him because you don’t like what he says. You guys fight. You are getting your but kicked so you decide you want to retreat. If my husband decides he wants to still pursue that fight, then he can not later claim self-defense if something goes wrong. You at that point can if he pursues and something goes wrong.
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@ Doug
I don’t agree with you on much of anything, but I can agree with you on that.
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There’s a preceding comment in moderation in which I say that circusboy is wrong about Zimmerman’s getting stand your ground if he started the physical fight, he had a duty to try to retreat in that case before using potentially deadly force, but since he couldn’t retreat once Trayvon had knocked him and pinned him to the ground, it doesn’t matter. Zimmerman still has self defense available under Florida (and most states) law if he reasonably believe that either his life or great bodily harm were imminently likely at stake.
Florida’s self defense statutes are actually a model of clarity and simplicity. There’s very little of referring to this that and the other provision or definition elsewhere (instead of simply writing it out) or specialized legalese. They are very easy to understand for a smart, logically inclined, person, as statutes go.
Many statutes read a good lot like spaghetti computer code. Logic within logic, like subroutines, and so on.
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Which in statutes like computer code can have bugs (logical mistakes), that tend to be much harder to figure out they are that in statutes. Can’t just do 1000 computer codes runs over a day or two or hour or two. Takes years to get a hundred often, and then politics comes into whether it was a mistake or not.
And no I’m nor have I ever been a member of the professional software writing party. (You being jejune will probably not get the reference. Which is to the McCarthy hearings, which predated me too by they were still resonating during my late youth.)
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“he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or”—-I am going to take away from the legal stand point and make my own personal opinion here.
When I see exhausted every means I take that to mean I have punched him in the nuts, head butt, stomach gut, pistol whip something. I find it hard to believe that anyone who is pinned down and does not know what is going to happen would not fight in like minded fashion. Now I know some people that would say punching a guy in the privates is wrong, but in a life and death situation it is not. Yelling for help is not exhausting any means.
I just find it hard to believe for any man to let another man beat you like that and the only thing you do is yell for help. I would not let another female hit me like that and just lay there and take it. If he had enough strength to grab that gun during the infamous head slam then he had just as much strength to get Martin off of him. If that meant a broken arm then so be it.
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@ brothawolf
He will never answer your questions. When he is proved wrong or does not have an answer he starts to avoid any conversation with you. Seems to be a pattern for Zimmerman supporters.
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” Racism” so called despite being the most taboo view in our society, is kept a live because blacks are so obviously way less smart than whites. On average, of course not in every case.
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@ Doug
This coming from the guy who still can’t answer a simple yes or no question. Did the blacks in this room force you to make the racist comments you made? No you made them all by yourself so tell me how blacks are keeping racism alive in well.
This thread was not in anyway about racism until idiots like you ran in here putting your racist views into the mix. You assume this case was about racism simply because blacks are not quick to rally to Zimmerman’s side. It is not. So that proves you are in here on racist agenda’s by that ignorant statement alone.
I think you come in this chat to talk crap and when it comes back at you you are the first to call foul. Get a life Doug. Don’t get made because some average blacks just made you look like an idiot.
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Doug,
By your logic, sexism is kept alive by women. Homophobia is kept alive by gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transexuals. And Islamaphobia is kept alive by Muslims. In other words it’s those who are marginalized who keep the separations going and never the dominant groups.
So, in that case if a group of white men in a vehicle runs over and kills a black man because he was black, it was the black man’s fault for being black.
So, still using your logic, It was Trayvon’s fault that he was shot and killed because he had the nerve to be born black.
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sharina This coming from the guy who still can’t answer a simple yes or no question.
What’s the question?
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This statement makes no sense and is bordering on a non sequitur.
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Sharina,
Circusboy is apparently a lost cause. A 400 lb. guy farting sounds way more intelligent than this joker.
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@ Brothaworlf
LOL.
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no the law states the agressor does not have the right to use stand your ground unless they are fearing their life, or are being bodily injured. having your head being beat into the pavement is enought to clarify this. yes the agressor can use stand your own ground . so no matter what, zimmerman has the right to use stand your own ground. it does not matter who threw the first punch really read the law people.
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@ circusboy9010
You go tell a legal professional that so they can laugh you out of the office.
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sharina noticing blacks lack education , because most of them make the statment ecucation is not a black thing, is not a racist stament. if you read the law zimmerman is innocent no matter who threw the first punch , that has nothing to do with racism , period.
intelligence?? I”M not the one who refuses to read the law that is in plain english & exonerates zimmerman.
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@ duckduckgoofs
The question to Doug was: Do you contridict yourself in posts you make on this board?
That is the main one but there have been others. Each time I ask him he gets mad and disappears. Sometimes he asks for proof. I give him proof and he then pretends he did not read it or see it.
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Just as I thought and just as you thought Sharina. Circusboy won’t answer my questions about his “sources”.
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Sharina
Everyone contradicts themselves on occasion. That’s because most people hold conflicting views. That kind of goes along with our earlier discussion of everyone having some form of bias. What was Doug supposed to have contradicted himself on?
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@ duckduckgoofs
I understand everyone does, but the reason why I was so harsh on Doug about it was because I noticed he would change his views only when it conflicted with his views on Zimmerman.
For example…. Doug was constantly bringing up deedee(Martin’s girlfriend). I never even knew the girls name, so I was not quick to comment on what she stated to police. Doug was constantly raving about how she proves Martin started it and blah blah blah. She was the great key to the puzzle for him.
When I pointed something out to him (can not remember at the moment), he became defensive and started talking about how deedee can not be trusted and so forth.
If she can not be trusted then so be it but ot make her relevant and then decide she is not because it does not fit into your puzzle is ridiculous.
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@ Miguel Miquel
“sharina noticing blacks lack education , because most of them make the statment ecucation is not a black thing, is not a racist stament.”—What are you even talking about? What black person has ever said education is not a black thing. It obviously is not your thing and you may want to consider investing in it.
“if you read the law zimmerman is innocent no matter who threw the first punch , that has nothing to do with racism , period.”—Even another Zimmerman support told you where you were wrong. I am guessing he also assume you are too dumb to hang with this conversation
“intelligence?? I”M not the one who refuses to read the law that is in plain english & exonerates zimmerman.”—Read the law…LOL…I posted the law you keep referring to in this chat. On another note if you consider intelligence an insult the you are beyond the scope of and idiot.
Miguel the Moron. Try again
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Sharina—
No you have NOT given my proof.
First of all I don’t believe you asked me if I’ve contracted myself, you asserted that I did. Further you have repeated claimed I’ve lied left and right on this case but been able to link to no examples.
You have never given any proof by quoting and linking of my having contradicted myself on this thread. The one time your purported to link to a comment of mine to show me you in fact linked to the post in chief and not my comment. I told you how to link to the comment (first click on the date and time and then copy the url from the browser address bar, not before so clicking), but you didn’t follow up and do that.
I may have contradicted some stuff later on no so important suff that I said a lot earlier on in the thead, when more info came out or when I’d actually read all the relevant Florida self defense statutes as opposed to at first only seen other legally compete people describe key provisions of them. I think you think I’ve contradicted myself because you don’t understand Florida self defense law, and can’t figure out the minor complexities of it – though they’re pretty minor.
What have I contradicted myself about or lied about? I know vastly more about the facts of this case and understand Florida on self defense so much better than you do. I think you’ve actually learned a lot about what you know about it from me, and then twist around some way of making Zimmerman guilty.
And no I’ve never disappeared from her because I was mad at your badgering over stuff you don’t understand or mis-recall (which if I were you I’d call lying). I have other things to do in my life.
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Circusboy—
No the initial aggressor cannot use stand your ground. He has to attempt to flee, however if he can’t flee as Zimmerman could he can still defend himself with potentially lethal force if he reasonably believes he’s in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm. Having your head repeatedly bashed against cement, which can cause a severe concussion, coma, or even death, certainly qualifies.
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@ Doug…
You are a freaking retard from this point forward. I have told you several times and several times over I have not attempted to link anything so what in Gods green earth are you freaking talking about. I told you that I have only copied at paste things that you have said and I asked you questions on that.
I told you I will no longer do the copy and paste until you answer my question. DID I NOT DO THAT MORON OR DID YOU CHOOSE NOT TO READ THAT PART?
” I may have contradicted some stuff later on no so important suff that I said a lot earlier on in the thead, when more info came out or when I’d actually read all the relevant Florida self defense statutes as opposed to at first only seen other legally compete people describe key provisions of them. I think you think I’ve contradicted myself because you don’t understand Florida self defense law, and can’t figure out the minor complexities of it – though they’re pretty minor.”–I understand the law pretty darn well and I am not pointing out florida law as your only contradiction. Funny how you still believe you one upped me on that one and forget to realize you did not even quote the law until it was pasted in this chat by me. It is like the old saying of how steal information from others and claim it as their own. Just what you are doing. Take credit for the leg work I put into this post and trying to claim it as something you did.
“What have I contradicted myself about or lied about? I know vastly more about the facts of this case and understand Florida on self defense so much better than you do. I think you’ve actually learned a lot about what you know about it from me, and then twist around some way of making Zimmerman guilty.”—As I am stating to you the Zimmerman’s closet lover, I have ony been going by the 911 tapes. I stated that day in and day out. The facts you claim you have in such abundance in regards to this case are nothing more than biased opinions you believe to be facts.
“And no I’ve never disappeared from her because I was mad at your badgering over stuff you don’t understand or mis-recall (which if I were you I’d call lying). I have other things to do in my life.”—This whole paragraph attests to your delusion. it funny how now you pretend like you have things better to do. For example I asked you if you contradict yourself in posts. That post was ignore. The next post right after that I commented on something and you were quick to respond to it.
I think you are a big liar on that note alone. You only commented this time because you did not want to look bad in front of duckduckgoofs.
You still want proof then get off your lazy azz and read the post where I gave it to you. Scroll up. Look for it because I have had enough of my busting my but to get information and show you things to only turn around and have you claim it as your great revelation to others.
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@ duckduckgoofs
This what I am talking about. Now he wants to respond and claim he may have contradicted his self, but only because you as a fell white poster got involved. He would have never responded had you not. I was just looking at one post where he contradicted himself, but never does he apologized. Never does he admit his mistake. He played it off figuring no one would notice. Well I noticed and he is trying to down play my intelligence because I did.
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Sharina—
That clause is only applicable if Zimmerman was the one who threw the first punch. The state’s lead investigator has admitted that they have no evidence that he did. The jury would have to believe beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman did throw the first punch for that provision to be applicable.
I have shown that circumstantial evidence suggests it more likely than not that it was Trayvon who started the physical fight. Circumstantial evidence when not contradicted by harder evidence is weighed by juries and by judges in pretrial self defense immunity hearings all the time. I showed it here:
Zimmerman says he did struggle to get out from under Trayvon. It’s very hard to hit someone effectively when they’re pinning you to the ground. You’ve got no momentum to any munches, no wind up. You can’t knee someone in the nuts when in that position either.
That’s ridiculous, illogical and ignorant of fighting. It’s vastly easier to pull out a gun and shoot than it is to get someone who’s on top of you off you, esp. if they are fit and you not so much.
As well Zimmerman says in the course of his struggle to get out from under Trayvon, his gun became visible and his father says that Trayvon was starting to go for it when Zimmerman pulled it out and shot him. If that happened that’s open and shut for valid self defense. It’s entirely plausible. However if Zimmerman never mentioned that to the police when they questioned him that night for hours down at the station house, I’d be skeptical about that. If he did, I’d tend to believe him.
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Sharina–
You haven’t quoted any contradiction or error I’ve made about Florida self defense law, and I don’t think I’ve made any, certainly for a good long while now.
I’d read it well before then, but I did go back and check if you quoted it accurately. I will not it took quite a few posts of my making distinctions between various sections of Florida self law before you understood it – if you even do now.
In other words you can’t back up your claim of my frequently contradicting myself and lying whatsoever with any specifics. And yes links or accurate quotes which I can do find on are necessary. It’s a web standard on blogs and comments, at least among the bright.
Many of your comments are too stupid and vague for me to bother responding too. Many like this one are full of endless insults.
You’re really not very bright you know Sharina. Plus a nasty piece of work. Oh and your husband’s theory of the case is idiotic and ignores large amounts of solid evidence.
Piss off, you don’t have any. Total fail.
Oh and I’m off to eat.
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@ Doug The incompetent…
“First of all I don’t believe you asked me if I’ve contracted myself, you asserted that I did. Further you have repeated claimed I’ve lied left and right on this case but been able to link to no examples.”
on Fri 4 May 2012 at 01:14:05 Sharina
DO YOU NOT CONTRADICT YOURSELF IN POSTS?
on Fri 4 May 2012 at 00:46:17 Sharina
One of the questions I asked:
Do you not contradict yourself in posts that you make?
on Thu 3 May 2012 at 23:22:52 Sharina
@ Doug one final set of questions? If you did not even know these laws. Why would you spend the whole first part of the blog quoting it as if you knew what it said? Trying to prove others wrong but you really had little idea what that law said?
Did you or did you not contradict yourself in other posts? No, long paragraphs as this is a yes or no question.
Yea so here is where I prove you wrong. These are posts and dates where I specifically asked you if you contradicted yourself.
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@ Doug the incompetent…
DID YOU OR DID YOU NOT POST THIS?
“on Fri 23 Mar 2012 at 17:09:39 –Zimmerman might have said something to Trayvon that he thought was challenging him and dissing him as young black males are prone to do including to actual cops, and started beating on him. Don’t know but it’s not implausible.
Florida has a “stand your ground law”. Under that law you’re allowed to use force including with a firearm if you reasonably believe that your life is in danger or you’re about to suffer a physically violent felony.
If Trayvon Martin was physically beating the Hispanic Zimmerman up as the eye witness reported, then Zimmerman falls within what’s permitted by Florida’s law.
on Fri 23 Mar 2012 at 21:12:47 Doug1—–think what happened is that Zimmerman questioned him, Martin got pissed at being dissed or profiled etc., Zimmerman didn’t verbally back off, and Martin started beating Z up. Z got scared he was really going to get seriously injured and or maybe killed, yelled to eyewitness John for help repeatedly, (who was the only one who saw as opposed to heard what was happening before the gun shot), and shot Trayvon Martin.”
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@ Doug…
I am not going to debate my opinions with you in that previous post as you are taking it to serious and I don’t like to change subjects when you have not addressed the first one. i will address one thing though.
“As well Zimmerman says in the course of his struggle to get out from under Trayvon, his gun became visible and his father says that Trayvon was starting to go for it when Zimmerman pulled it out and shot him. If that happened that’s open and shut for valid self defense. It’s entirely plausible. However if Zimmerman never mentioned that to the police when they questioned him that night for hours down at the station house, I’d be skeptical about that. If he did, I’d tend to believe him.”—-Now the story is Martin grabbed the gun. Either you need to stick to one lie or Zimmerman needs to stick to one lie. Hell the way you are acting you two seem to be one in the same.
I have made two posts above. I know this is a stretch, but when you decide to read them you will see what I am talking about in regards to why I am frustrated with you and why I am treating you the way I am.
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@ Doug….
“You haven’t quoted any contradiction or error I’ve made about Florida self defense law, and I don’t think I’ve made any, certainly for a good long while now. “—-CAN YOU READ? I wrote that you have contradicted yourself on things. I never said it was Florida law. Not once did I say that at all. The only thing pertaining to the law that I stated you contradicted yourself on was that one minute you are stating Zimmerman can claim stand your ground and the next you are stating he can not. Now that you realize that please move on because it seems like a ploy to avoid my addressing my questions.
“In other words you can’t back up your claim of my frequently contradicting myself and lying whatsoever with any specifics. And yes links or accurate quotes which I can do find on are necessary. It’s a web standard on blogs and comments, at least among the bright.”—I never pretended to be a blog whiz. Heck before this blog I have not really been as active, but doug you are wrong once again because I have accurately quoted several things you have said. Just because you decide not to read it…that is not my fault. That is yours, but then again it is so easy to claim you did not read it so you can hold on to that superiority in your mind.
Off to eat Zimmerman’s shlong I am guessing. Run Doug. Run away.. You are good at doing that when you lack the ability to address the real issues with you being wrong.
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I’ve been fair minded.
You’ve been nothing but an extremely race preducitged black bitch.
Of course4 that is supported on this extremely anti-white, bigoted, by any definition black racist web site.
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@ Doug……
LOL….Your insults only prove what I have been saying from the start. You can’t stand your lack of intelligence in this situation and because I am black it hurts all the more. Poor Dumb Racist White Doug…. A complete embarrassment to the White race. Guess what? You can do what other racist do. Ride the coat tales of the intelligent whites and pretend like you accomplished something. LOL.
You did succeed at one thing though. Not answering my question
On a side note. You were all into my post up until you realized I did not agree with you. I was the smart black to you; right up until I started to question you. I guess you are use to people believing whatever you say. Not I!!!!
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My insults????????????????????????
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I don’t usually gloat when a person does not know something as in most case I talk it over with them and come to some type of understanding or we gain knowledge from each other, but in the case of Doug……I WIN YOU RACIST SPOILED SNOT!!!
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My insults???????????
Your’s have been legion and have exceeded my reluctant ones by about a 100 to one ratio.
Hypocrite. Vile person.
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LOL XD
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Sharina–
Yeah well I’ve earned millions stupid black bitch.
In high finance. If you are bright enough to figure out what the means.
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*that
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So why am I racist under any reasonable definition of the term, which would be if true or likely true, or reasonably believed to be true, it can’t be racist?
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Sharina–
The white hating bigot.
Abagond the white hating bigot.
This whole blog is around those Abagond white denigrating, demonizing and white hating sentiments among blacks. This is a thoroughly anti White racist and race animous blog, and attracts like minded supporters.
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Sharina–
You’re pathetic. You’ve been totally disproven.
You rely on your low IQ black peanut gallery around here to support you.
You fail.
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@ Doug
Here is the definition of racist: a person who believes in racism, the doctrine that a certain human race is superior to any or all others. I copied and pasted it for you so you will not claim I changed it. Now think how many times you have come in here claiming you are superior to all the blacks.
Don’t Call foul now doug. You can say what you want about me. Say it as much as you want. I know who I am and do not need your approval. I know plenty of whites that would beat you down telling you how wrong you are about me.
At the end of the day….I WIN. Sorry you can not handle that.
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Sharina,
I think you got him right where it hurts, his ego.
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@ Doug…That is the major difference between me and you. I don’t need approval. I know who I am. I am happy with myself. If you agree with me then high five…If you don’t then hey high five. Opinions are like azz holes….everyone has one. Yours just stink and so people comment on that.
FYI…Most of my white friends are republicans and conservatives. They are better than you all around. I think people like you give them a bad name. I mean we disagree on things but they never insult my intelligence and I do not insult theirs as we know that one or the other may know more in a certain field about something.
The fact that you constantly had to claim superiority was laughable because I always thought that if you are, then you did not need to constantly claim it. Heck Jesus was superior, but he never went around constantly saying it.
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Somebody is MAD! I heard the shouting all the way over in another topic!
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Sharina–
Really you’re too stupid to respond to.
It’s very frustrating to talk to someone so much stupider than you are, This is a well demonstrated sociological effect, though of course in this academic cultural Marxist environment, it is ominipresent.
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@ brothawolf…
Either that or reality is setting in.
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@ Doug
Hey you are contradicting yourself now. LOL.
Anyway continue showing your true racist side. It is so amusing watching you make a complete idiot of yourself. I will go get popcorn.
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Sharina,
That’s just it. When it comes to people so sick with whiteness, their enemy is reality and the truth. Neither matters as much as being white, “superior” and have all the privileges that come with it that most whites don’t believe they have.
From what I’ve seen being white means to be right all the time. Doug wants people to agree with him on every subject even the ones he has no knowledge of. You caught wind of this. You took it, found major flaws, and used it against him. Now, he’s breaking down as you’ve back him into a corner with no way out. So, now he’s gone into a rage because you disrupted his comfort zone of white supremacy.
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@ brothawolf
You know I though I would feel bad for saying what I did to him, but in all honesty. It is too funny.
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@Sharina
High five for keeping it classy, respectful and brilliant with your tactful techniques of showing flaws in arguments.
@doug
Get banned, go ahead, you should. You attacked Sharina’s race, gender, and intelligence and yet she is “stupid” and “vile”. You really need to go and do some self-reflection. Your judgment is questionable and you are rude.
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@ deedee7789
No need to be too drastic. After all, he’s had a hard day yachting and sailing around the coastal area. Doug probably needed to wind down with a few glasses of peppermint schnapps and several double slices of rum cake. He’ll go away for a few hours, sleep it off and return to us the same snuggly bigot we all know and cherish.
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Sharina,
Don’t feel bad. You may have achieved what so few have done. You broken his spirit of whiteness, and like deedee said, you did it with class, respect and brilliance. You truly were the better person.
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@ Doug:
You can leave now. You are banned.
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oh wow! Sharina made him explode. I bet bits of black crime stats were stuck all over the walls…
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Allow me to be the first to shake your head, Sharina! You are the hero of this blog!
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Correction. I meant to say “shake your hand”. I was just amazed at Sharina’s power.
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@ Sharina,
Wow. I have to say that you have effectively done the impossible and knocked him off of that racial pedestal. And you did it without compromising your civility. You handled that with class.
@ Brothawolf,
You and me both.
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@Sharina
I agree with both Ace and brothawolf.
You were patient and tenacious but persistent. The truth will ALWAYS out with individuals of this kind. He stopped talking to me much earlier on here and I must say, I was relieved as my patience had already worn thin.
Hail Sharina 🙂
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How could Doug say that and not expect consequenses ?
Kudos, Sharina, for exposing another white racist for what he is
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Thank you everyone.
I had no idea the racist were that bad in here at all. I mean I should be tipping my hats off to you guys because you handle it each time you are here. I am not sure I could handle a doug day in and day out. So Kudos all around.
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Wow!!! WTF? What happened here???
That was a wonderful display Sharina!!!. I agree with previous commentators you handled that in an exemplary manner!
I actually couldn’t believe how DUMB Doug appeared to be!? Its like you handed him a script and he just “literary” played it out in this post? How dumb and stupid is that?
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@ Sharina
Have you met Randy? LOL!
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^^^That’s me, Truthbetold, by the way…
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@ diaryofanegress
Nope. Not yet, but I am guessing he is another Doug. LOL. Oh are they really that sad?
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@ Sharina
Yes, All of them. Their attraction to us is so creepy.
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@Sharina, I stopped commenting a while ago because I just couldn’t stand another minute of the non-stop crap flowing out of Doug’s mouth, and I can’t thank you enough!!!!
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Sharina, you were channeling the power of Nyabinghi. I love when one of our African Queens shows her strength. Great job!
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Sharina,
The ones you have to worry about are Circusboy a.k.a. Miguel Miquel, Brahms, duckduckgoofs, Randy, dave, and the inconvenient truth. However, be on your guard because more will show up.
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brothawolf
I would not give Circusboy a.k.a. Miguel Miquel that much credit. I personally think he mentally retarded and even that is giving him too much credit.
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That clown Doug 666, had a nervous breakdown right before our eyes! Well, with his ‘millions’, he can afford a top notch lunatic asylum. The lobotomies and ice baths will do wonders for his moods and perhaps will cure him of the DDTs whilst undergoing treatment!
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The meals aren’t too bad either!
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the ones to worry about are the ones that can’t read plain english, where the stand your ground law shows no matter who attacked who gz is innocent. this is not a racial issue it’s an issue of justice not being used properly , gz should have neer benn arrested according to this law stand your ground.
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Calling circusboy aka miquel miquel mentally retarded is an insult to people are are actually mentally retarded. He’s more willfully ignorant.
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@Miguel Miquel
Then I guess I definitely should be worried about you. You can barely write English let alone read. LOL
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@ cleonette
Your right about that.
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You’re right Sharina and Cleonette. Circusboy is definitely not a threat.
Miguel, you’ve yet to answer my questions. Why is that I wonder? As a side note, my top blog bar indicated me that you responded to me. You’ve defended me listing you as someone to worry about, but you haven’t answered my questions. That in itself says a lot. It must mean that you have no sources to speak of and yet, you claim that (and I quote) “the little motherf*cker is a criminal.”
You based that on what, facts? What facts? You cited absolutely nothing, not even biased articles. Not that that would’ve made any difference.
You’ve disgraced all of your imaginary Ph. Ds. with your ignorance, denial of said ignorance, and utter lack of respect.
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you poorly orchestrated attempts of ad homnym are ridiculous. out of the many languages i speak english has never been my first or favorite one. however. I can read at a rate rather more proficient than anyone here . I own several english dictionary’s one of which is over 4000 pages long. read the law & you will see that there is an exemption for even attackers to use stand your own ground, which means no matter who attacked zimmerman is innocent, as it is hard to escape with someone sitting on your chest pounding your head into the pavement. only a racist would support martin.
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@ Miguel Miguel,
No, if it were an issue of “justice not being carried out” then he would have been arrested, arraigned, and tried from the beginning instead of using every trick in the book to get around bail, pull out his black friends, , and show utter disregard for the family of his victim.
Last time I checked, if you kill someone who is unarmed and then claim self-defense, the onus is on you to prove you had a right to.
But then I can’t say I’m surprised, I just read of a case of genuine self-defense where the young trans woman was told to pay a 500,000 dollar bail and had to plead to 2nd degree manslaughter, even though she was ganged up on by a group of white cisgendered straight people, hit with transphobic and racist insults, attacked, cut with a bottle, and then forced to defend herself with a knife which resulted in one of them dying.
How is a gang of white supremacist, transphobic people who ganged up on someone, followed them, and literally attacked them some more sympathetic of a victim than a unarmed 17 year old minding his own business? And how the heck is someone who shot an unarmed 17 year old an “innocent” who deserves to be free, when someone like that young transwoman was arrested, given a high bail, and made to plead guilty for killing someone who was genuinely threatening her life and in a position to take it?
Now that I’ve seen this, I am more than certain that Zimmerman has had treatment that was more than fair, in fact it was beyond lenient when one considers his offence.
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@ Miguel Miquel
Define Racist and then we can talk?
Secondly your are too stupid to even be remotely considered a threat. The only truth you have spoken in your whole paragraph was “English has never been my first or favorite one.”
Time and time again poster after poster, Even doug aka Zimmerman has stated to you that Zimmerman can not claim stand your ground. Only an idiot like you believes that. You can post it all day and all night, but buddy it will not make it true.
Just like it is not true that stand your ground and self-defense are the same thing. Stand your ground refers to you not having a duty to retreat. It mainly refers to when you are in your home, but can also refer to places where a person has a right to be.
You are killing yourself with your stupidity.
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Miquel (assuming he’s responding to me),
First off, where in my reply have I made an ad hominem against you?
Second, what does your supposed proficient reading abilities have to do with anything?
Third, what do you owning several dictionaries have to do with anything?
Fourth, Sharina is way better at law than you as she has clearly demonstrated. So, she can run circles around your futile attempts to paint Zimmerman as innocent. So, she is more qualified (as she had experience) in telling you a thing or two about law, this case, and Stand Your Ground way more than I am.
Fifth, let’s get some things straight. You are defending a killer of a young teen whom you’re sending to hell for absurd and ridiculous reasons: “He dressed like a thug. He was a criminal.” And as of yet, you STILL haven’t produced any sources to support your statements.
I’ll have to conclude that you haven’t been as focused on this case as you believe. It also shows that you know very little about common sense, human dignity, and respect for the dead, traits seen in most trolls whose racism is revealed through the internet.
You reject facts that are presented dead in your face. You rely on stereotypes to be the kinds of people you want a certain group to be. You believe image is everything and should determine life and death. And, you have little regard for the very people you stereotype.
So, in conclusion you are desperately trying to TURN Trayvon Martin into a criminal with no proof whatsoever because you can’t find any that is objective. So, in your heart you want his murder to be reasonable and Zimmerman to be a hero. Your comments back up that observation very nicely, but failed miserably in sounding convincing. That’s why you can’t and won’t answer my questions. You run away from them like a rat running away from a cat.
You have humiliated yourself long enough, my friend. Your arguments hold no significance and are as profound as a bag of catfish.
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@ Brothawolf,
First of all, great response right there.
Do you notice how many people have tried to make up lies in order to turn Zimmerman into the innocent party? Its like, when racist’s can’t validate their thoughts with proof, they just make it up as they go! It’s almost like they have this weird obsession with turning a dead 17 year old into OJ reincarnated, so they can have some sort of sick satisfaction out of his death and the anguish of his family. .
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@ Miguel Miguel,
I forgot to tell you. You would not find legal stuff in a dictionary. I must say impressive amount of dictionaries, but it is still pretty obvious you do not comprehend what is going on. It is almost too sad that you believe the stuff you are making up.
They have padded cells for that.
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Ace,
I’ve noticed that too. It’s disgusting that some people will go through great lengths to defend a murderer and demonize the murdered. If you try to tell them they are excusing the murder of a child, one of the usual responses is that Trayvon wasn’t a child because he was 17. He was STILL someone’s child and he didn’t deserve to die like that.
Sharina,
Miguel is pathetic if he truly can’t or won’t see how his arguments hold no weight and severely lack any credibility. Through his statements alone, can not take such a person seriously no matter his supposed “experience” and (ah-hem) “knowledge”. A person with a Ph.d would laugh at Miguel. Straight up.
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Brothawolf,
“I’ve noticed that too. It’s disgusting that some people will go through great lengths to defend a murderer and demonize the murdered. If you try to tell them they are excusing the murder of a child, one of the usual responses is that Trayvon wasn’t a child because he was 17. He was STILL someone’s child and he didn’t deserve to die like that.”
It is so messed up. I want to ask them: Since when is 17 not a child to someone? But then I realize that to them. he’s black. Innocent terms like “child” doesn’t apply to him. And many people like Miguel hold no respect for black people because we aren’t supposed to be respectful for them, or understand their loss. We’re supposed to constantly attack, jeer, or find ways to discredit them.
Speaking of, I saw someone try to justify a young person of color’s suicide as the fault of “anti-racism”, because expecting white people to want to be around their “inferiors” was like wolves being forced to be around dogs, and therefore if we’d all just let them discriminate they wouldn’t feel cornered enough to attack people of color. They really feel like white people are victims of the very existence of people of color, and therefore they think we deserve to be shot and victimized. Applying that logic to how Trayvon’s death is treated, we get a very disturbing picture of why people seem to stand behind his killer.
Also, I know that part is directed at Sharina, but I had to respond to it:
“A person with a Ph.d would laugh at Miguel. Straight up.”
I’ve got a family full of educated people, the youngest is in college and the oldest members all have either Master’s Degrees or PhDs. They’ve heard arguments like those said by Miguel a lot, not just in school but in their professional worlds. The thing that makes them laugh at this fact is that they still all share the common trait of thinking their racism is their “qualification”. They don’t have to really be educated or knowledgeable about any field.
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“Speaking of, I saw someone try to justify a young person of color’s suicide as the fault of “anti-racism”, because expecting white people to want to be around their “inferiors” was like wolves being forced to be around dogs, and therefore if we’d all just let them discriminate they wouldn’t feel cornered enough to attack people of color. They really feel like white people are victims of the very existence of people of color, and therefore they think we deserve to be shot and victimized”
What the hell .. ? Who could ever say such a thing? That’s just …unreal. Justifying the suicide of someone by blaming anti-racism, wooow. Excuse me while I go bang my head against the wall in hopes such people are few in numbers and on the quick decline.
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http://newsone.com/2014996/marissa-alexander-sentence/
No words…
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@ cleonette
Thanks for sharing that. I am in complete shock because I feel that such an action should be acceptable. For anyone to say the justice system is fair is really walking around with blinders. This story alone proves it.
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no sharina because the woman had a way out and did not have to go back into the house. don’t bring race into the situation when it is not one.
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@circusboy9010
At what point did I mention race? Better yet at what point did anyone mention race? In this case alone this woman should be able to claim stand your ground or simple self defense due to the fact that she was protecting herself. She fired a warning shot and a warning shot is not taking a life. It is letting a person know to back off. She should not have gone to jail.
Secondly, your level of stupidity is getting ridiculous. You might actually believe you are doing a good job for the white man. Are they patting you on the head feeding you doggy treats for your stupid responses on this board? No. They are reading what you are saying and laughing at you because it makes no sense how stupid you are. I forwarded things you have said to one of my white friend and she could not stop laughing at you. I bet she is forwarding that same stuff to all of her white buddies and they all are sitting around laughing at your ignorance. I mean seriously no one could be that dumb like ever.
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what I say makes plenty of sense. your the one who makes emotionally based illogical statments unsupported by any facts. ignorance?? I can read a basic sentence and know zimmerman is innocent. if you read what happened to that women she was in no way fearing for her life as she had a way out. if your not such a racist you would not have mentioned your friend color but just said friends.
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@ circusboy9010
To you it might make sense, but then again you are stupid. I have yet to make an emotional comment to you. I have spent more time laughing at you than taking anything you have said serious.
“I can read a basic sentence and know zimmerman is innocent.”—Ok Mr. I can read please elaborate where I mentioned race. Take your time…I know reading is such a chore for you.
“what happened to that women she was in no way fearing for her life as she had a way out.”—News flash dumbo she is not the first woman to do this. Other women have actually killed the man under the same circumstance and gotten off with self-defense or batter wife syndrome so do take some time to do research. Your ignorance sticks
“f your not such a racist you would not have mentioned your friend color but just said friends.”—Again define racism and then tell me how I fit into that category. With all your dictionaries this should not be a problem, but we already established you can not read so another mute point. Seeing as you idolize the white man you would not believe me if I did tell you my black friends laugh at you, so since you are a Hispanic I will tell you this. My Hispanic relatives laugh at you too. They feel you are a shame to them and should not even be online a public place showing your stupidity. As for my black friends well you know how that goes right because you know black people.
Zimmerman is only innocent in your dreams. Keep dreaming Justice will be served one way or another.
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@ Circusboy
At the end of the day you are no more than a white man’s lapdog hoping to get a treat if you do his bidding. How does that feel? You are a bottom feeder. You lost in your Zimmerman argument and hey you are loosing now. You can make up whatever you like, but it does not change the fact that you lost in your argument.
You based your assumptions on little or no facts. Could not back up anything you said with any bit of rational information. You ran off on an emotional rant that brought you to the same lack luster conclusion you were at before.
Just to save you some trouble Racist is defined as a person who believes in racism, the doctrine that a certain human race is superior to any or all others. I have yet to display that I am superior to anyone unless of course you mean my display of superiority to you. In that case maybe I am a racist.
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hahaha your funny you should be a comedian if you think any rational person would take you seriously. white mans lap dog?? yo so hispano & bow down to no man god or government. everything I have stated is based on solid granite facts . the only one who is losing here is the ones who tink it was ok for martin to attack a man who was doing no harm to anyone. one less worthless criminal in this world, the police should be giving zimmerman a medal of honor.. zimmerman has rightly pleaded innocent. syg protects his actions no matter who attacked who.
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@ Yawn,
“What the hell .. ? Who could ever say such a thing? That’s just …unreal. Justifying the suicide of someone by blaming anti-racism, wooow. Excuse me while I go bang my head against the wall in hopes such people are few in numbers and on the quick decline.”
Yep. It was one of the most disgusting things I’d ever read, but I had to share what I saw in regards to how people of color are viewed as victims who deserve what happens to them. It’s crazy how they think.
@ Circusboy,
First of all, she was in a lot more danger than Zimmerman was, yet you argue Zimmerman is justified and she is not. Did he not receive instructions NOT to follow the teenager? Did he not feel “safe” enough to follow him? According to your own logic, he’s guilty and was in no danger. Your bias is showing…like usual.
Second of all….
Tell me, what do you think would happen had Trayvon been white and Zimmerman been just Hispanic? Do you think people would support his “innocence”? Or do you think people would call open season on all people of Hispanic, Latino, or Mexican descent? Do you honestly think people wouldn’t be baying for blood and deportation if Trayvon was white? Think about that before you come up with another half-baked reason why Zimmerman was “innocent”.
Thirdly…
Don’t you get tired of defending viewpoints that people use to justify persecuting people like you when they’re not being used to justify persecuting people like Sharina?
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@ Circusboy,
Oh, by the way, how do you feel about calling a young man with potential and aspirations a “worthless criminal” when the man you killed him has been charged with felonies, assaulting a police officer and domestic violence at different points of his life?
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@ circusboy9010
I know two white attorneys that are on another board having this same discussion with a bunch of half with idiots like you (since you do not believe black attorneys) would you like to take up your fictional claims with them. I will be happy to provide that link.
“everything I have stated is based on solid granite facts”—Also what facts have you provided. I asked you about those facts once and you could not provide not one of them. You simply changed the subject like you just did when I asked you when did I mention race in regards to the link cleonette provided. You have nothing. Just another white man wanna be loser. Do your knees hurt?
Stand your ground does not apply to Zimmerman and if you can read you would know that and you would also know why. The fact that you don’t is laughable on all counts. Even lawmakers have stated it does not apply to Zimmerman. Do you hear that lap dog? The men that made the law says it does not apply to Zimmerman. What is even more funny is you still believe that stand your ground and self-defense are one in the same. LOL.
News flash Zimmerman has been arrested, so if you want to discuss this further I suggest you go to open thread.
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@ circusboy9010
The saddest part is you simply are too closed mind to get what I am saying to you. It is not about whether you support Zimmerman or don’t, but the fact that you are supporting him without proper information. I told you once and I will say it again defend him with accurate information. Your whole case is flat and like I told doug you guys would be laughed right out of a court room with your non sense.
Your responses are emotional backlash. Can you really blame me for laughing? Have you seriously read some of the things you have wrote? My 5 year old has far more comprehension skills than you and you are a grown man.I would be embarrassed if anyone ever read something I wrote on this blog and it sounded even remotely like the dribble you keep posting. I feel sorry for you.
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Puh-lease circusboy.
Stop trying to deny that race is the core of your support for the freedom of Zimmerman and the imprisonment of Alexander. Besides, we are hip to your game.
You are simply toying with us because you have a sick pleasure in offending other people. You do not take this issue seriously, not in the least, and you’re making such remarks because you know you can get away with it.
You say that everything you’ve stated is based on facts, but as I’ve always been saying, you have nothing to back it up, not even links to any articles which would still be a feeble attempt to legitimize Trayvon’s death and Zimmerman’s innocence. And the reason why is because you can’t. None of them exist. Even if they did, I doubt you would know how to find them.
No one has ever said that Trayvon Martin had the right to attack him because there was no sound evidence to prove that he provoked anything. Again, if you disagree, at least have a more intelligent argument. Repeating the same statements over and over again, is not intelligent.
Face it. You’re the one losing this race. But then again, you’ve been running backwards believe that you’re ahead of everyone else. And you want us to believe it too. That is why none of us take you seriously.
Man up, and admit that you’re not into having a serious conversation about this case. You could care less about the death of a teen, and you use that to shame us into thinking we’re defending a violent thug. That’s what makes you sick, and your so sick, you’re enjoying this comfortably in your room.
Just admit it and be done with it. That is, if you’re man enough.
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A teenager walking down the street is one less criminal in this world? You’re probably not stupid but you’re sure as hell full of hate.
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@ Ace
Tell me, what do you think would happen had Trayvon been white and Zimmerman been just Hispanic? Do you think people would support his “innocence”? Or do you think people would call open season on all people of Hispanic, Latino, or Mexican descent?
You mean the way blacks have been using this incident to attack others?
Don’t you get tired of defending viewpoints that people use to justify persecuting people like you when they’re not being used to justify persecuting people like Sharina?
Blacks on this thread have been screaming how ZImmerman was a “white hispanic racist” and now Ace wants a hispanic guy to join the colored coalition to stick it to da white folks. smh
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@ Duckduckgoofs,
“You mean the way blacks have been using this incident to attack others?”
Nope, because there were only a small group who did that, versus the majority who wanted Zimmerman’s arrest and trial nothing more. (I notice how you didn’t bring up white violence, Trayvon targets for gun ranges or the neo-nazi presence. Typical) However, there is a established history of resorting to almost instant punishment when the victim is white and the killer is not. Since there is a racial heirachy in this country, Zimmerman’s support would not be here had the victim been white. It’s only here now because Trayvon is lower on the social totem pole, due to his skin color.
Oh, by the way. How’s that fair and balanced viewpoint based on logic going? I am enjoying your selective application of that.
“Blacks on this thread have been screaming how ZImmerman was a “white hispanic racist” and now Ace wants a hispanic guy to join the colored coalition to stick it to da white folks. smh”
No one has been “screaming” anything beyond Circusboy, and Doug. really, “da white folks”? Wow, aren’t you classy! I love how you tried to use “black-talk” to, in a typical fashion, attempt to be snide about something I am saying. I’m not black, but but even I find that hilarious. Cute. Because asking for fair treatment for a victim and his family has been “screaming”. Clearly it’s all a ploy to stick it to white people. Because EVERYTHING revolves around white people.
Circusboy claims he’s a Hispanic man, and there has been a huge backlash against Hispanic people, often orchestrated by the same people who openly support Zimmerman, and it’s based on ethnicity. Many of their justifications for singling out Hispanic people are the same ones he’s using in regards to black people. Oh, by the way, since white and hispanic are not synonymous with racist, it’s a reasonable question to ask if a hispanic person thought about the backlash against them when they say racist viewpoints leveled at black people.
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@ Duckduckgoofs,
Also, in regards to:
““Blacks on this thread have been screaming how ZImmerman was a “white hispanic racist” and now Ace wants a hispanic guy to join the colored coalition to stick it to da white folks. smh”
You might have had a point had Circusboy, Doug, and others not been calling Trayvon a “black worthless criminal” first. You might have had a point had they not made up lies to support their views when the truth would not, or if they didn’t resort to ad hominems and personal attacks (often racially based) on members of this thread that they thought were black. You might have actually had a point had YOU not, right up there, tried to say blacks were universally impartial because some of them on a jury acquitted OJ. Sorry, but if your going to insult the victim and use racism to get away with it, you don’t get to pretend to be the “rational party”.
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@duckduckgoofs
“You mean the way blacks have been using this incident to attack others?”
..And also how some neo-Nazi groups have been planning a race war against black people, how some white college students harassed some black college students at Cornell and threw bottles at them and when a black student asked them to stopped one white student called the black student “Trayvon”.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-usa-florida-skinheadsbre8471en-20120508,0,2116697.story
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/the-cornell-sun/citing-trayvon-people-all_b_1496841.html
The point is that a FEW people, both Black people and White people, have used the Martin case as an excuse to be criminal. That does not mean that anyone is accepting of it and it is being downplayed.
“Blacks on this thread have been screaming how ZImmerman was a “white hispanic racist” and now Ace wants a hispanic guy to join the colored coalition to stick it to da white folks. smh”
Not sure if this is your quote due to the italics but i will comment on it anyway.
I did a search of this thread of “white hispanic racist” (and mixes of some of the words) and..I couldn’t find a single “Black” commenter who made that statement. Yes, some mentioned racist rights who were backing Zimmerman, that Zimmerman made white racist statements, and that some commenters’ were called white racists but I could not find anyone except doug1111 (who is not black) who used words indicating that Zimmerman was a white Hispanic and racist(although doug1111 was making a statement and not calling Zimmerman a racist per se).
It does seem like it would be more appropriate to move any further discussion of the Martin case to open thread or @circusboy9010 you can ask Abagond to make a new thread for the case specifically.
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@brothawolf.
this case has nothing to do with race . I”m not even white or so I’ve been told my whole life everywhere I go. I’ve been called everything but white. I”m of spanish decent on both sides of my family. it’s about one person attacking another. in the end it doees not matter who attacked who or what race either one was, zimmerman iss innocent under Florida’s syg law. your the racist who’s making this about race sir.
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@ circusboy9010
“this case has nothing to do with race .”—You yourself was all too quick to make this case about racism only a few comments ago. I guess it is quick to forget when you are in the hot seat. I have never mentioned race in any post I have made to you and you were quick to tell me I had to justify the fact that you were harping on race.
“Florida’s syg law.”—He can not plead under stand your ground law. It does not matter how many times you say it. How much you want to believe it. It is not and can not happen. The first part of that law pertains to a persons residence. Martin was not in Zimmerman’s or anyone else home. The second part of that law pertains to being in a place where the individual had a right to be. They both had the right to be there. Actually check out this link and educate yourself for yourself http://www.cfif.org/htdocs/freedomline/current/in_our_opinion/florida-self-defense-law.htm
“your the racist who’s making this about race sir.”—Again define racist. The fact that you keep calling people that and have no idea what it means is too funny. Don’t you have 4000 dictionaries?
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@Abagond
I apologize for my last comment towards circusboy. I will be more civil with this one:
@circusboy
Now, you’re starting to recycle the same statements, Circusboy. It looks like you’re backed into a corner. You don’t answer other people’s simple questions, and yet, you want to be taken seriously? That’s not how it works, my friend.
Sharina’s proven herself to be more experienced in law than you, not to mention that she has followed this case way more carefully than you and can understand what’s going on. You seem to be running on empty to try to convince anyone, including yourself, that Zimmerman was defending himself.
But you know what’s really disgraceful is that you are trying your hardest to defend a murderer of a young man, a person who already got in trouble with the law, but got off easy for unscrupulous reasons that still baffles a lot of people.
I won’t engage in an argument about his age determining whether he was an adult or not. Regardless, he was SOMEONE’S CHILD. Was he perfect? No. What teenager is? Still, he did not deserve to die. And to sit here and either imply it or say it outright is low.
And your reasons behind it are the following:
1. Trayvon was the aggressor.
2. Zimmerman “stood his ground” which is the law in Florida.
3. Trayvon was a thug/criminal.
4. Black people worship crime.
To you, that’s not being racist. To you, those are facts based on…YOUR experiences. However, that is subjective, not objective, and it makes no sense to contradict yourself saying such comments and claim that you are not racist. That shows extreme denial – if it were genuine.
But you see, you say these statements on purpose because that’s what trolls do. They cause tension and trouble online for the sake of amusement. You are saying all of the right things to stir up a post about the murder of a black youth by a white Hispanic, and you will continue because you know you won’t get caught outside the net. Plus, you try not to say anything that will definitely get you booted from this blog. But, we know the game.
It’s clear you care nothing for Trayvon, but I’m willing to bet you could care less about Zimmerman as well. You just get a huge kick out of all the attention you’re getting from your meager attempts to save the freedom of a killer.
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@ Brothawolf,
Wonderfully put.
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I care about justice period. don’t care about either one of them yes you are correct. the law states the man is innocent and a criminal is dead. assault and battery (attempted murder ) is a crime , no matter who attacked whom, zimmerman is innocent stand your ground.
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@ circusboy9010
You don’t give a crap about justice, so give it arrest on trying to be Mr. World Peace. Your other post spoke loud and clear in regards to your true feelings. If you were about justice then you would not be so quick to endorse the things you said.
“assault and battery (attempted murder ) is a crime , no matter who attacked whom, zimmerman is innocent stand your ground.”—Again repeat it all day and does not make it true. Let me ask you something….Define assault and battery because if what you say is true and Zimmerman assaulted or did battery to Martin first then guess what?????? Go ahead guess……Zimmerman was in the commission of committing a crime buddy which means he is not even protected under self-defense, so not only did you blow his stand your ground case (could not claim it anyway) but you managed to blow his self-defense. LOL. See what happens when stupid talks. LOL. Also attempted murder and assault and battery are two different things.
Classic.
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@ brothawolf
excellent post.
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following a suspicious person is not a crime, read the law , the word unless clarify’s that even e \a person committing a crime has protection under stand your ground . however zimmerman was not committing a crime.
worldy/?? no I”m not very worldy I’ve only seeen all of north america about 8 times for over a week or so pervisit to every major city in north america. knowledge I read voraciously . I’ve read hundreds of thousands of pieces of literature. so your right I”m just some dumb hick . if you believe that I’ have a ketchup popsicle you might be intereseted in, or a freezer for use only in canada. either way zimmerman qualifies for syg no matter who hit who first and zimmerman was not involved in criminal activity.
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miguel/circusboy
Give
it
up!
Zimmerman murdered a young man BECAUSE he thought he looked suspicious and was up to no good. All you’ve done to support your “argument” is akin to what Zimmerman believed. He thought Trayvon was a thug exactly as YOU continuously put it over and over again. Yet, all you’ve done was continuously repeated it based on what YOU think as you’ve provided NOTHING to back it up.
It is pointless to continue justifying your belief that Trayvon was a criminal based on nothing. All you’ve provided was your NARROW-MINDED OPINION and nothing more.
Check this out, right: no one remotely believes that you’ve done all of the things you’ve claimed to have done because every comment you make is not based on fact or educated opinion. We asked you to provide something that backs up your statements. Yet, you’ve provided NOTHING. No one’s to blame for not listening to you other than YOURSELF.
The facts are that:
-Trayvon had NO WEAPON.
-Trayvon had NO JUVENILE HISTORY.
-Trayvon most likely DIDN’T provoke the first punch.
-Zimmerman, against the advisement of police, FOLLOWED HIM when he DIDN’T HAVE TO.
-Zimmerman HAD a weapon.
-Zimmerman HAD incidences with police, but had his charges DROPPED because, according to several articles, Zimmerman had experiences studying law.
-It took more than ONE MONTH for the police to charge Zimmerman for a crime.
-Zimmerman MURDERED a 17-year old, unarmed black male with no criminal history.
Here’s your “facts” again:
-Trayvon was the aggressor based on nothing provided by you.
-Zimmerman “stood his ground” which is the law in Florida based on your opinion.
-Trayvon was a thug/criminal based on what you believe black people are.
-Black people worship crime based on what you believe black people do.
If you can not discern why you are seen as a comedic low-life troll based on what I’ve presented, then there is no reason why I or anyone else should waste our time with you. You are a lost cause.
By the way, not to veer off the subject, but you know nothing about the Alexander case. If you did, you would realize that she didn’t return to the house just to have a stand-off with her abusive husband, she went back because she tried to escape in her truck, but she didn’t have any keys, her garage door was jammed, and she had no phone. How do I know? This is a link to a post written by Lincoln Alexander, Jr :
http://justiceformarissa.blogspot.com/2012/04/lincoln-b.html
So, there goes your justification of Alexander’s arrest and Zimmerman’s freedom. Now, go ahead and deny that race has nothing to do with Zimmernan’s case or your feeble-minded attempt to contrast his case with Alexander’s. Go ahead and tell us how you’ve read hundreds of books, been all over the country, and yet, say the dumbest comments ever known.
In the end your comments are meaningless.
Peace.
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One last thing miguel/circusboy,
You don’t care about justice. You don’t care about the law, and you don’t care about facts. The only thing you care about is living in your own self-deluded euphoria that can only be caused by your toying the emotions of other people over issues you could care less about. Period.
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whatever . zimmerman killed swomeone who was po0ounding his head into the cement, period, the law does not care what color either one of them is , or their cultural background. the law does not care who attacked whom. this is not a racial issue. toying with your emotions?? there should be no emotions involved here as nobody on this board is related to either one of them.
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@ miguel miquel
“following a suspicious person is not a crime, read the law , the word unless clarify’s that even e \a person committing a crime has protection under stand your ground . however zimmerman was not committing a crime.”—You don’t even know what the stand your ground provision says. You have been quoting the self-defense part of it the whole time. Two different things, so you don’t know what you think you know. #1 reason you are being called stupid. You are also starting to contradict yourself because one minute you say Zimmerman did not commit a crime yet based on your own twisted reasoning he did.
Oh and by the way it does matter who hit who first. If Zimmerman hit Martin first it would at that point be considered battery. An assault is the threat of bodily harm and the ability to cause that harm. These are crimes and are cause for arrest. If Zimmerman attempted to assault Martin (did not have to hit Martin) he was committing a crime and thus not able to claim stand your ground or self-defense, but all this is based on your reasoning alone. The battery part makes it all more of a win for Martin. LOL. This is what I mean by think before you speak and proper information, so far you have managed to build a decent case against Zimmerman LOL.
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hahaha your funny because the only people who have not thought before they speak are the ones who are trying to defend someone who was seen beating another person’s head on concrete. nothing else matters at this point, zimmerman at this point had the right to shoot the brat dead , period, end of point. read the law. I will go through your list later on today when I actually have time because everything on your list is so full of holes it would never float .
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oh the syg law also says if the person is breaking a law(if zimmerman hit martin first) they still can claim syg if they are fearing their life. like the law says it does not matter who hit who in this case.
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@miguel miquel
Again where did I mention color? You are the one that keeps bringing it up yet you still managed to not think before you speak. I not once in any thread mention the color of Martin or Zimmerman. I went straight law on you and here we are you still not able to keep up.
“I will go through your list later on today when I actually have time because everything on your list is so full of holes it would never float .”—Feel free you will not find anything. You may try to put words in my mouth though because that is the only way you will by making up stuff I said. My case is rock solid and if it actually had holes you would have addressed it when I first said it. Not when you decided to sew on some cotton balls.
“oh the syg law also says if the person is breaking a law(if Zimmerman hit martin first) they still can claim syg if they are fearing their life. like the law says it does not matter who hit who in this case.”—Quote the law word for word and stop trying to make it up as you go. If you value being stupid then more power to you. I just hope you don’t pass this much stupid on to your kids. Oh do you hear that…Its the white people you worship laughing at you LOL. Go bleach your skin and start licking the racists boots.
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Miguel,
Who has seen Trayvon beating up Zimmerman? Who has seen the confrontation and objects that it was Trayvon that started it? For that matter, if Zimmerman had a gun, why would a 17-year old try to beat him up?
So, just because it’s the law, as you say, he had the right to shoot a child dead. You know you are a real piece of work for saying that. Especially since you’ve admitted that you care nothing for Zimmerman, and yet, spend precious time defending him with the flakey arguments.
Sharina has shown where you failed in your arguments. I have shown where you lack the ability to answer simple straightforward questions.
Sharina is correct about you preferring stupidity than logic, but I would also like to add that you also prefer to be a jerk because of the way you view the death of a young black teen.
All in all, you proved yourself to be a mere troll with an idle mind and a broken moral compass.
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-Trayvon had NO WEAPON.
that does matter his hands are weapons when bashing a man’s head into the cement
-Trayvon had NO JUVENILE HISTORY.
trayvon was repeadatly kicked out of school for various infractions
-Trayvon most likely DIDN’T provoke the first punch.
this is not known either though it is most likely he had more motivation to do so seeing as he was probably scoping homes out for further burlary attempts.
-Zimmerman, against the advisement of police, FOLLOWED HIM when he DIDN’T HAVE TO.
the word’s “we don’t need you to do that ” are not advising anything. the police dispatcher has no authority over a citizen.
-Zimmerman HAD a weapon.
it is his god given right to have one .
-Zimmerman HAD incidences with police, but had his charges DROPPED because, according to several articles, Zimmerman had experiences studying law.
having incidences with police does not make one a criminal. I have incidences all the time as a street performer when police don’t even know the law and you have to stand your ground against false arrest by knowing the law.
-It took more than ONE MONTH for the police to charge Zimmerman for a crime.
because the states attourney did not see this as a prosecutable offense. thousands of similar non crimes are kicked out monthly.
-Zimmerman MURDERED a 17-year old, unarmed black male with no criminal history.
tm’s criminal history has no basis in anything as lot’s of criminals get away with crime their whole lives.
the only thing that matters is a man was on the ground getting his head beat into the pavement , according to syg it does not matter who started the fight, what race they are, or if criminal activity was involved.
as far as failing my arguements?? that’s what a person who lost theirs say’s about valid points which no tm supporter has brought up any so far. they only thing I hear from them is.
unarmed child…
an unarmed child can be just as deadly (not a child by any means 17 is a young man not a child) as any adult. if not more so because an adult will subliminaly try not to hurt a younger person , while a person their own age is no mercy.
rasicm..
there is nothing racist about profiling it is a system that works.
just read the law carefull. also notice burglary’s have dropped significantly since tm death. so even if it were not him this has sent a message to the other criminals in the area to stay away.
(99% of the burglary’s in the area were by black male youths’ , that is not profiling that is reality.)
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@ circusboy9010
Again you are missing the point.
WHERE DID I IN MY POST (NOT ANYONE ELSE POST) MENTION SKIN COLOR OR RACE?
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@circusboy9010
You still have managed not to address my posts. You are addressing things you have made up or you read on other people post but you have yet to address anything I have said.
I am beginning to believe you can’t because you know you will be proven wrong.
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@ brothawolf
I mean seriously what is wrong with people like circusboy aka miguel where they can not even answer a simple question?
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@ Circusboy,
Stop injecting your made up facts into the case. Jesus Christ.
I have had enough.
I am tired of you making excuses for why this boy deserved to die.
I am tired of you treating his killer like some hero cop instead of the violent, unstable man he was. He was not a cop. He was a guy with a bad criminal record, a history of violence. He shouldn’t even have been able to get a gun, let alone patrol around with it like he was an actual law enforcement officer. If anything HE attacked Trayvon’s rights, not the other way around. It’s not freaking rocket science, he should have been arrested from the damn start, and put through the criminal justice system instead of always getting a pass or an excuse. If you really cared about crime, you’d want him behind bars, he’s a danger to his community.
I am tired of you making up “infractions” because you can’t even justify why you try to portray Trayvon as a criminal. He had no freaking record. At worst he did things millions of young white men do every damn day and not ONCE is it used to criminalize the lot of them.
I am definitely tired of you thinking you have the right to bring up Trayvon’s past as if Zimmerman had some freaking paper detailing everything Trayvon did when he followed him. His past didn’t make a difference over who he was, but Zimmerman’s past definitely made him who HE was. How telling you don’t care about that.
How dare you even attempt to blame burglary on Trayvon or act smug about his death, as if the “wrong element” has “learned” from it. That is nothing but evil, vicious racism and callous disregard for the UNJUST loss of someone’s life.
If Profiling were a system that works, then there wouldn’t be such disproportionate arrests because people wouldn’t instantly call 1-800-RENT A NEGRO when they want to find someone blame crap on.
How freaking hard is it to understand? You shoot someone, you go to jail. You are not a victim, you are not a hero. You followed him. You impeded his right to exist. You own up, take your licks and be a man, don’t act like some Christ-like martyr after YOU took someone’s child away from them due to your own inability to control yourself.
So, if some guy decided that they should follow, confront, and eventually shoot my autistic brother for looking “suspicious”, you’re going to try to say that “at least criminals learned from his death”? Are you going to tell me that “well he could have been a burglar”? Are you going to try to make up “facts” about how he somehow couldn’t be a decent as people think he was, and therefore he deserves what he got?
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not able and refusing to answer an idiotic question are two different things.
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Circus clown is probably drunk 24-7 just as his picture illustrates, hence the disjointed ramblings.
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http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?mode=View%20Statutes&SubMenu=1&App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=790.001&URL=0700-0799/0790/Sections/0790.001.html
“790.001 WEAPONS AND FIREARMS (13) “Weapon” means any dirk, knife, metallic knuckles, slungshot, billie, tear gas gun, chemical weapon or device, or other deadly weapon except a firearm or a common pocketknife, plastic knife, or blunt-bladed table knife.”
Florida law doesn’t seem to legally define fists (hands) as weapons. Weapon seems to be defined as external and not physically on a person.
____________________________________________________________
Martin had no police record so..Sharina’s point is still valid.
Although it is true that “having incidences with police does not make one a criminal”, it does not mean that no crime was committed. Pushing an officer and hitting a woman constitutes assault. He had to take anger management classes rather then receive a charge. That was ordered by a judge but by law then Zimmerman may have very well committed a crime which would have made him a criminal at the time. He was just not a convicted criminal.
______________________________________________________________
Please read :http://www.sanfordfl.gov/police/flyers/Bias_based_policing.pdf
Sanford police racial profiling policy document. Racial profiling is unconstitutional.
“Along with this right to equal protection is the fundamental right to be free
from unreasonable searches and seizures by government agents. Citizens are free to walk and drive our streets, highways and other public places without police interference so long as they obey the law.”
______________________________________________________________
Peace
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“[T]he FBI is now looking into charging him with a hate crime[….]if Zimmerman is charged and found guilty of a federal hate crime involving murder, he could face the death penalty.”
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/fbi-seeks-charge-george-zimmerman-hate-crime/nN5pR/
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profiling by officers might be unconstitutional, zimmerman is not a cop. gated community’s are private property and people do not have the same rights to indiscriminatly walk around with no reason to be there, or expect to not be asked what they are doing there.
profiling however exist’s because it works.
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*rubs temples*
Miguel/circusboy
I swear, not even the commentaries on Fox News is this obtuse. You probably got your information from them.
Thank you deedee:
“790.001 WEAPONS AND FIREARMS (13) “Weapon” means any dirk, knife, metallic knuckles, slungshot, billie, tear gas gun, chemical weapon or device, or other deadly weapon except a firearm or a common pocketknife, plastic knife, or blunt-bladed table knife.”
Florida law doesn’t seem to legally define fists (hands) as weapons. Weapon seems to be defined as external and not physically on a person.
It is not known if he was kicked out for various infractions. So for now, I think you just made that up, to continue to justify his death. SMH
And this is based on what, that he was a young black male in a hoodie? Is this based on your premise that looks matter which means that if he was a young black male in a hoodie in a gated community, then he was obviously up to something based on your opinion?
As this point I wonder why you keep defying the obvious that you have a racist mindset. Only someone who’s sick with racism would use that to justify the murder of a black child, and you are indeed sick as hell.
Yet, Zimmerman followed Trayvon anyway. And don’t even think of typing that he was only protecting his neighborhood. That still doesn’t mean that he had to shoot a young kid.
Speaking like a true right-wing conservative. He was armed because it is God’s will. Oh yeah, God what’s all of his people to have guns even if they are too mentally unstable to use them. It is part of God’s great plan. SMH.
First off, I believe you when you said you had incidences with the police. Second, maybe it doesn’t make him a criminal if he got charges dropped, but it sure as hell makes him lucky. Third, based on your comments, you have about as much use for law as Charles Manson have for vegetables.
That should be a dead ringer for who screwed up with country’s justice system really is.
You can’t or won’t prove that Martin had a criminal history. Why? Because he HAD NO criminal history. Don’t say things you can’t back up.
Again, to you it doesn’t matter if a young boy was killed because he was black. Why don’t you just come out and say it and stop dancing around the issue. You think Trayvon deserved to die. Why not man up and just admit it?
Again, Deedee, provided a link that shows that racial profiling is unconstitutional. And while you try to avoid the strong possibility that race is part of this whole mess, you – as you always do – imply that race has everything to do with how you see black people and why Trayvon had to die.
j
Reality based on what? Again, I’ve asked you to provide from information. Deedee has. Sharina has. You haven’t. What’s your excuse?
And even if most of the burglaries were committed by black males, that still doesn’t mean that black men in that area should be suspected. If you weren’t a racist, you wouldn’t make such statements in the first place. You continue to show just how racist you really are, and you continue to hide behind your weak defense that “I am not racist”. Do you think we are not intelligent enough to recognize racist statements when we hear or see them? Do you think we are too stupid not to catch on to the asinine comments of a deranged lunatic who justify’s the murder of a child with no information to back it up? Are you really that deluded to think that your comments hold any merit?
Whether you want to admit it or not, you are disgraceful. To say that a child deserved to die based on nothing significant is the epitome of human shame. That is why I have this beef with you while Sharina is constructing a logical argument against your weak comments, and I thank Deedee for providing info as well. But, you not only can’t provide any information, you won’t even listen to kind given to you. No intelligent person would resort to childish methods and expect to be taken seriously. In conclusion you are not intelligent enough to talk about jellybeans, and you are certainly not moral enough to bring God into your argument.
In short you’ve lost, you’re pathetic, you’re annoying, you’re ignorant (as hell) and you’re morally deprived. Deal with it.
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it is the states job to prove guilt , so untill then zimmerman is innocent.
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yes it does mean that if most of the burglary’s are by black males that you should look at all black males in the area as suspect, especially the ones walking around aimlessly looking @ homes & watching them to see who is or is not home like trayvon was. there is nothing strong about an emotional argument.
it is not important wether or not tm had a criminal history he attacked a man who was breaking no laws. none of this matters except tm was on top of gz and was about to kill him, it does not matter who attacked who , or if one was green skinned and the other purple skinned. it does nto even matter gz was armed(it is his right as a citizen ). however anybody should act as if everybody else is armed and then they won’t have to worry about being shot .
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@ circusboy9010
You are still derailing the conversation and avoiding it for that matter. You stated I was a racist and I mentioned race in my post. Did you find it yet? You have not evidence to what you are saying. You hands are typing and you do not have a clue what is going on. As has been stated Martin was going home. Did you not forget he was going to his fathers fiance’s house? He was in a neighborhood he had a right to be.
You can play the non-racist card all you want you proved you were several posts ago. I guess your tune changes when you think the white people are looking at you. LOL.
Your post are pointless. No one said Zimmerman did not have the right to bear arms although if he is a felon he actually does not have that right anymore. In any case it does matter who was the aggressor because that actually can make or break Zimmerman’s case. This is why you are stupid because you are actually breaking Zimmerman’s case.
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http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/autopsy-results-show-trayvon-martin-had-injuries-h/nN6gs/
“WFTV has learned that the medical examiner found two injuries on Martin’s body: The fatal gunshot wound and broken skin on his knuckles.”
However, it could be self-defense wounds as well as signs of Martin attacking Zimmerman. It is not clear which one it is.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-medical-report-sheds-light-injuries-trayvon/story?id=16353532#.T7P1VsWmGIY
Zimmerman medical reports has been released. He was observed by a family physician. The report mentions many injuries. It also mentions that before the incident Zimmerman was prescribed Adderall and Temazepam.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0000166/
Some side effects of the medications that are interesting..
– feeling unusually suspicious of others
– hallucinating (seeing things or hearing voices that do not exist)
– aggressive or hostile behavior
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0000808/
Temazepam symptoms in link above.
The is also some news of a possible hate crime charge being used. i think that may be a little extreme but the people overseeing the case know more tham I do.
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@ deedee
Do you want to know what I find interesting? He went to a family physician for something that is suppose to be life and death. I also find it interesting that more wounds were not on Martin considering Zimmerman claims it was a life and death struggle.
I have always asked the question who and I mean who lays down and just lets someone punch them in the face or just beat them. I have never seen that no matter what the situation no person just lays down and takes a beating. I still believe Zimmerman either grabbed him in an unwanted manner or pointed a gun at him.
Before doug was banned he mention that Zimmerman’s father told the story that Martin may have grabbed for the gun. If I am to believe that then the gun may have been drawn or positioned in a threatening manner.
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@Sharina
“Before doug was banned he mention that Zimmerman’s father told the story that Martin may have grabbed for the gun. If I am to believe that then the gun may have been drawn or positioned in a threatening manner.”
Exactly, the gun was under his jacket, within the waistband of his pants. Martin would has needed to be looking at Zimmerman’s waist to have seen it become “exposed”. I would really like to know if Zimmerman had those prescribed drugs in his system that night because he would have hallucinated and that would make his story less reliable.
I also find it interesting that he had a family physician who could technically write whatever in the medical report. Not to devalue that physician’s work but I think a hospital medical record would have been better.
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@ Deedee
I just finished reading the article. It stated that Zimmerman declined follow-up appointments and only went to doctors to get released to work. That does not in anyway sound like a person suffering from being so terrible beaten. It also noted he did not have a concussion (meaning the head slamming could not have been that bad or as bad as he is claiming). It also stated he was to get a psychological evaluation which he declined.
You would think these would be important, but I believe he thought claiming stand your ground it would just go away. Just like ever other incident in his life.
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@ Circusboy,
“yes it does mean that if most of the burglary’s are by black males that you should look at all black males in the area as suspect, especially the ones walking around aimlessly looking @ homes & watching them to see who is or is not home like trayvon was. there is nothing strong about an emotional argument.”
You are seriously trying to pull the snotty “your being emotional” card? After all of the ridiculous, unsubstantiated crap you’ve come up with? Seriously? Wow that is hilarious to me.
So which is it? You say that Sharina was “racist” for bringing up race, yet you were the one who keeps justifying racism, racial profiling, and making racist statements about black people. So, either his race matters or it doesn’t. You don’t get to pick and choose when.
That’s not a job for Zimmerman, that’s a job for the cops. Neighborhood watch is not allowed to just profile and case people based on race. Clearly he wasn’t doing it right, since other black residents of that community have said he followed them or treated them suspiciously. They weren’t criminals, and yet he saw fit to harass them as if they were. What about that?
Also, “like Trayvon was”? Seriously? First he was going to the store, NOW he was aimlessly looking around watching homes to see who isn’t there? Your actually trying to imply that he was CASING homes to break into?
“it is not important wether or not tm had a criminal history he attacked a man who was breaking no laws. none of this matters except tm was on top of gz and was about to kill him, it does not matter who attacked who , or if one was green skinned and the other purple skinned. it does nto even matter gz was armed(it is his right as a citizen ). however anybody should act as if everybody else is armed and then they won’t have to worry about being shot .”
So why bring up his “criminal record”? You did that. If it didn’t matter, why put so much effort into making up false accusations against him in order to justify him getting killed pointlessly? How do you know he was about to “kill” him? Last time I checked, the only person with a loaded, ready weapon was Zimmerman. I wonder why it was ready to use, if he wasn’t planning on having an altercation with the person he followed. And no, you aren’t actually allowed to waltz around with a concealed, loaded gun. And honestly, if he was so “threatened” why did he follow him? Why not just settle with waiting for the cops? He had no emotional connection to him, he wasn’t a victim of violence nor was he attacked by him prior to deciding to follow him. Also, remember, the ONLY person with a criminal record and history of violence was ZIMMERMAN. So try all you want to treat a murder victim like a criminal, that still doesn’t change the fact that the only criminal was the one who pulled the gun.
Also, what about Trayvon’s right as a “citizen” to walk around without being followed and harassed? Last time I checked, black people had rights to. You don’t get to just corral black people into designated areas and follow the ones who “don’t belong”.
Also,
What about Trayvon’s right to walk around that community unmolested? You seem to lack the reading comprehension to acknowledge that he was actually visiting family. So your whole theory of his “motive” for being in that area is completely shot. An average citizen does not have the right to question someone and then follow them, nor would they have the “right” to walk around with a loaded gun with the safety off (which it would have to have been if he was able to shoot while “being attacked”).
Zimmerman would be labeled a creep in my neighborhood, if he thought it was okay to follow young men around and ask them where they lived.
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Circusboy
That is not only racist, but just stupid. You’re basically saying that black men in that area don’t belong there because they are up to no good simply because they are black. Now, you’re going to ramble off and deny that you could be racist.
And how do you know Trayvon was looking and surveying homes moments before he was killed? That is what you think. That is your warped opinion. You don’t have anything to back it up other than your make-believe knowledge of people and you’re own immature racist mindset that justifies racial profiling, a practice that helps destroy black and brown communities and governs control above justice.
It must be important to you if Trayvon had a criminal history. To you, he does, and it is based on your simpleton’s assumption that black men are natural born thugs. You’ve been repeating it over and over. So, the assumption is important to you.
Everything you’ve said is based on what you think. It is based on your extremely limited and prejudiced mindset regarding blacks which have absolutely no basis of fact. You basically judge an entire race based on stereotypes, and support racial profiling. In short you are simply racist, sir.
Seriously, you sound like a skinhead or a KKK member with your comments.
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@ Ace and brothawolf
I know some neighborhoods where if Zimmerman had pulled that crap he did then he would have been beaten down by all the men in the neighborhood and then they would have called the police. Gacy is one man that comes to mind that would lure young men into his home and rape them and then murder them. I can honestly say I would have done the same thing Martin did.
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@sharina, that would never have happened there as zimmerman is a respected member of that community. gated community’s are all private property even the streets, anybody can be questioned to the validity of their being there.
limited ??? prejudiced?? I dated a black woman for 6 years and we almost married. in that neighborhood most likely if you were black you don’t belong there, & yes the majority of convicted burgulars that area were black. this is not racist to know these facts.
to be racist I would have to think my race to be superior, I don’t feel any race to be superior, (not even the japanese). Martin had more than enough time to make it home, most likely he was casing homes for burglary & gz caught him in the act, so he attacked the man.
I feel sorry for you that you think the way you do that the young man is automatically innocent & gz automatically guilty with you having a mindset built on a fallacy that was produced with aa 4 year old photograph. god bless you anyhow.
everything I’ve mentioned here is very substatiated or I would not bring it up without fact checking unlike some people I know here.
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Sharina,
I see it like this: If Zimmerman believed he had the right to defend his neighborhood by any means, Martin had just as much right to defend himself from the gun-toting vigilante.
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@ Brothawolf,
And yet, I’m sure we will see him claim he’s not racist and that “race doesn’t matter”.
@ Sharina,
Exactly! Gacy, Dahmer, and more than those two. The US has a history of serial killers choosing vulnerable young men and luring them (or following them) into an area where they can be killed. So why would a young man logically be forthcoming to some weird guy who he doesn’t know? That is counter-intuitive to what all young people are taught. I wonder if Circusboy would be justifying Trayvon’s murder if Zimmerman followed him back to his family’s place and wound up feeling “threatened” enough to hurt them?
I’m sure that, in my neighborhood, Zimmerman would be the one followed, and this time he’d be followed by actual cops. A man who thinks like him, with a violent history? He wouldn’t be able to case around our neighborhood looking for suspicious “young men”.
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limited ??? prejudiced?? I dated a black woman for 6 years and we almost married. in that neighborhood most likely if you were black you don’t belong there, & yes the majority of convicted burgulars that area were black. this is not racist to know these facts.
You dated a black woman. Big deal. You know how useless that defense is as we’ve heard similar lines before numerous times? Just because you dated and almost married a black woman doesn’t make you immune to having a racist mindset. Period. So, stop repeating the same lame defenses like “race doesn’t matter” and “I’ve dated a black woman.” They don’t fly, young man, and repeating it won’t make them any more important.
You don’t have to think your race is superior to be a racist. You can think that a certain race is inferior to yours and support any and all kinds of methods to keep them down based on dimwitted prejudices. By the way, what race are you?
Martin was on his way home. He minded his business until Zimmerman appeared, and are you still on that kick about him casing homes to rob? Give it a rest. You don’t have anything to back it up. So stop repeating it. That is something you think and what you think is not always fact or a reasonable opinion. Again, you’re basing this on your prejudices and stereotypes, and the more you repeat it without any info to support, the more it looks apparent that you’re just assuming.
And I feel sorry for you for having such a poor intelligence and moral factor to actually believe the way you do about black people and as such believed Trayvon deserved to die. You haven’t disputed that your sense of morality is screwed. So, I must be on to something. And you’re lack of knowledge and common sense adds insult to injury. All you’re doing is condemning a young man based on your racist and ignorant assumptions, and that is nothing to be proud of.
If you believe in God, you should get on your knees and beg for forgiveness because if He is what most people think He is, He won’t like the fact that you’re trolling online demonizing a child just for your own twisted amusement.
everything I’ve mentioned here is very substatiated or I would not bring it up without fact checking unlike some people I know here.
If you’ve fact checked, you should at least cite it so other people can look it up because we just can’t take it at face value just because you said so. So, for the hundred billionth time, WHERE ARE THEY? Why are you too chicken to list them. Could it be that you don’t have any?
You may as well back down. You don’t have anything left but the same steaming pile of ignorance you continue to recycle. Your trolling is evident. So, your best bet is to let it go for all our sakes including your own.
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@ circusboy9010
What are you even talking about or do you know? Where did I say you were racist? Point to me exactly where I said that.
You are the one calling me racist and have been for a while now. You prove my point every post. Every single one you mindlessly keep responding to.
I don’t care if you dated someone black purple or green. You have been spouting racism and now trying to cover it up but talking about stuff I never said.
Let me repeat myself for you: When did I mention race in my post? When did I call you racist for that matter?
If you have not gotten the clue that you have no idea what you are talking about from this then you really are loosing it.
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@ circusboy9010
—Once again please tell me how I am going to make a judgement on something I have not seen. I told you that in yet another post, but I guess good old stupidity keeps convincing you that I have. I must have to come to my conclusion according to you right. Oh yea wrong. If you check my post I always refer to Martin as well Martin or young man. Never once said kid or child cause I never saw his kiddie pictures.
—I posted links to my facts in this chat. Where are yours? in LALA land.
Here’s a tip. Stop responding you to me until you can figure out who you are talking to. You are the poster child for why kids should stay in school.
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@ Circusboy,
“limited ??? prejudiced?? I dated a black woman for 6 years and we almost married. in that neighborhood most likely if you were black you don’t belong there, & yes the majority of convicted burgulars that area were black. this is not racist to know these facts.”
You dated a black woman? I suppose this is as true as your many degrees?
Oh, stop the presses. He dated a black woman. That totally means he knows black people and isn’t racist, no matter what ignorant, made up, Stormfront-crazy crap the throws around.
I love how you aren’t “limited” or prejudiced, but not only throw out that you “dated a black woman” as your justification, and then go on about black people being unlikely to have belonged in that neighborhood, as if the BLACK RESIDENTS who talked about Zimmerman’s behavior totally never lived there.
So, tell me this. What about “that neighborhood” would make it a place black people don’t belong in? If you aren’t a racist or don’t believe in any form of racial prejudice, you would already know that black people do not just spawn in the ghetto, and the ones who are born there aren’t any more likely to do anything than the white and hispanic people who are. In fact, what do you know about neighborhoods like that? I did say that I LIVED in one, but what do I know?
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there is nothing racisty about knowing that certain social groups have more preponderance of violent criminals than others, it’s called reality.
you can continue with your ad homnym attacks all you want , it just shows your lack of real arguement. which is very weak and based purely on excitement and emotions, with no real substance. only a racist would attack a man who was merely defending himself after defending his neighborhood.
I have never spouted any racist statements but merely statements that reflect the reality of the situation. loosing it?? whatever believe what you want to believe because you live in your own tiny narrow minded world based on a media lie. god bless you anyhow. only a racist would assume gz to be guilty with even less evidence than the state had or has, & they declined to prosecute. the states attourney declined to prosecute that night. the only reason anything is happening now is from pressure from racist who called racism and demanded a trial were one is not necessary
don’t know what I’m talking about?? whatever believe what you want to because your so narrow minded you will never accept any facts that don’t align with your prejudiced ideals of tm being a totally innocent teen . let me tell you something sister. murderers (I have known a few in las vegas who would plant you in the desert just for looking at their woman sideways much less have a discussion about this bs attack on a most likely innocent man) don’t stick around for the cops if they are innocent. tm had more than enough time to just go home or call 911 if he was so innocent. face the truth and listen to all sides of an argument before letting one side convince you. .I don’t care if gz is guilty or not, I really don’t. why don’t you use logic to convince me instead of pure bable and emotional bs that has nothing to do with facts. walk me through the entire scene as you see it in your mind and discuss , then prove every statement as if you were a defense attourney for the little thug. funny burlary rates have dramatically dropped since tm dropped. however remember the word’s innocent till proven guilty. what if it were you in gz’s shoes? till you walk a mile in another person’s shoes stfu . really though tell me what you think happened and justify your remarks with the evidence known & the eye witnesses accounts(they are quite different to eachother and not all of them cooberate eachother) . I”ll be waiting patiently please. tyvm & god bless you for thinking this litttle thug is innocent though in reality he is probably a hardened thug like most kids fitting his description. profiling exist because it works. if it did not i would not be alive from driving for hire vehicles & taxis in many very dangerous city’s.
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Sharina,
I don’t know if he’s talking to you, me or both of us at the same time. I doubt if he even knows who he’s talking to.
I called Martin a child and kid. So, he may have been talking to me, but is referring to you. (I don’t understand it either.) I believe I also mentioned race in my comments.
I know I’ve asked this guy for something to back up his statements. He has yet to do so. All he did was based his information on nothing but his own prejudices. So, he really is a failure in this debate. It’s like watching George W. Bush arguing with Michael Eric Dyson.
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Yeah, cool it on the ad homonym attacks. And the ad hominem ones too.
It does not matter how many PhDs commenters have or how many dictionaries or black girlfriends. What matters are the facts and reasons they offer. Both geniuses and fools have had multiple black girlfriends, PhDs and dictionaries.
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@ circusboy9010
For starters you still have managed not to remotely address my post. You keep calling me a racist yet you still have not even remotely been able to point out where I said anything racist? You have yet to point to where I mentioned race as a factor in this case. Never once did and you are once again derailing.
If you are looking for my theory and proof try actually reading the posts I actually put up and you will have proof, links, quotes of witness accounts on what they heard, etc. I have provided my facts not once, not twice, but several times. You actually have done nothing but go on rants and have not provided any proof although asked not once, not twice, but several times but several different commenter.
This long post you just made was nothing more than a derailment to avoid having to provide the proof you claim you have. You have lost your argument and your case.
“what if it were you in gz’s shoes? till you walk a mile in another person’s shoes stfu .”–Sorry my mother raised me with common sense and if it was me in Zimmerman’s shoes I would have never followed a potentially dangerous individual.
“I”ll be waiting patiently please. tyvm & god bless you for thinking this litttle thug is innocent though in reality he is probably a hardened thug like most kids fitting his description”—-I always gave proof you just actually have to read. Go up a few posts and you will find it. I never said Martin was innocent, but I also never said he deserved to die.
“profiling exist because it works. if it did not i would not be alive from driving for hire vehicles & taxis in many very dangerous city’s.”—Some one once told me that the average terrorist is blonde hair blue eyes. So much for racist profiling huh.
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@brothawolf
I think we may have confused him because he does not know if he is coming or going.
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@ circusboy9010
Here is a little tidbit on how Zimmerman lies. In the 911 tape he states he thought Martin was in his late teens. Link to 911 tape and other 911 callers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin
At bond hearing he told Martin’s parents he thought Martin was a little younger than him. Zimmerman is 28 years old. A little younger than him would be 25 or 26 which is stretching it.
If he can lie about something so simple, then who knows what else he is lying about. Stay tuned because I will be giving you a mountain of other evidence for you to choke on.
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@ Circusboy
“you can continue with your ad homnym attacks all you want , it just shows your lack of real arguement.”—I already won the argument. I did that several comments ago with good old fashion facts. You are just having a hard time accepting it. That is why you keep trying to make up things and claiming I said it.
Again. Where did I call you racist or bring up the race of Zimmerman or Martin?
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Sharina,
Yea. He seems to be talking to both of us.
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I’m also curious as to why he’s stuck on this issue? He seems to want to stay here and talk about this case until the end of time.
Frankly, I’m tired of talking to him about this issue. In the end he will stick to his guns. I’m moving on. It’s for the best. Circusboy can stay here if he wants.
Besides, this thread is already stuffed to the extreme with comments. It’s getting slower and slower to load up on the computer.
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wow , unlike you I have a life , don’t have time to scroll through this again and again with some kind of nerouces(spelling) . the truth is always something to stick to as it is what usually what works best. the only thing that matters is tm was on top of gz, about to kill gz for merely doing what most people on watch would do, follow a perp who did not appear to fit in. gz had no way of knowing tm had a home there or not.
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@circusboy9010
“gz had no way of knowing tm had a home there or not.”
The interesting thing is that the neighborhood watch is suppose to check in with his neighbors and know who is leaving or visiting (the neighborhood watch guide is on the sanford city site).
“the only thing that matters is tm was on top of gz, about to kill gz for merely doing what most people on watch would do, follow a perp who did not appear to fit in”
But it also needs to be clear what lead up to that situation. Martin could have also been defending himself. Also, according to the neighborhood watch guide, Zimmerman was never suppose to follow a suspicious person but just call the cops and let them do their jobs.
I can understand you wanting an innocent man to not be trialled but it isn’t completely clear that no crime was committed. Just understand that making assumptions about the victim is just as vicious as making assumptions about the defendant.I think that is where the biggest issue lies with your argument.
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@ circusboy9010
So when you are hit with some hard facts and you have to prove some things you are saying you turn tail and run. You were so quick to ask me to provide you with evidence and because you can’t handle the truth you all of a sudden are too busy and have a life. You didn’t have much of a life when you thought you were right. I guess the truth must be really killing you right now.
If that little bit of evidence hurt I would hate to see what will happen when you finally decide to read the information deedee provided with links for the fact searching impaired.
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the city of sanford has no power inside the gated community, so the city’s guide is irrelevant. if they wanted to they could have a double layer fence with a river full of pyrana’s no matter what the city guide says.
sharina , you want hard facts?? did you watch good morning america today??? looking more and more like george zimmerman is going to walk, like he should.
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@circusboy9010
I don’t listen to media outlets because they are biased. I prefer cold hard facts that I can review myself. Like the 911 tapes and oh yeah that is right Zimmerman’s own words. You know the facts I just threw at you a few comments ago. All from Zimmerman’s own mouth.
Not one single evidence that the Media has presented even points to who started that fight. Not one and it is way too easy to say a dead man did it because he will never tell. Grow up. If you are looking to the media for answers this your argument is weak as all get out.
Just to give you some equal amount of information. Self-defense law states clear as day a duty to retreat. All the evidence that the media is bringing up is showing day in and day out that Zimmerman made no duty to retreat.
It’s sad that you are confusing the media Intel with facts. Goes to show you have no independent thought. You go by what people tell you. I figure that much from reading your other lame excuses of post.
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Good Morning America!? That’s a hot one!
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The media has neglected to report the fact that Zimmerman made the last minute decision not to meet with cops. Wanted them to call him so he can tell them where he is.
Media keeps reporting that two witnesses saw the whole thing when in fact they only saw fight. Have no idea who started it.
Media keeps reporting the fact that Zimmerman got out of his car to give police a house number, when if you listen to the 911 recording Zimmerman actually got out of the car to chase Martin.
I guess the media is lacking in a lot of areas.
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I’m just laughing that circusboy said that Good Morning America has hard facts as if the media is a reliable source of information. That is rich! Ha ha ha.
Now I know you’re a “circus boy”, not just by looking at your picture, but you belong in a circus. You’re a clown, man. Ha ha.
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The first number that popped up in my mind regarding a ruling for Mr. Zimmerman was 50. Maybe Mr.Zimmerman will get 50 years. Or zero, doesn’t matter to me.
“the city of sanford has no power inside the gated community, so the city’s guide is irrelevant”
Yeah, like the police have no authority either right? I mean why on earth would they create a neighborhood watch guide for a program that they oversee? I mean CLEARLY the cops have no authority right? READ MY SOURCES.
Click to access NWProgramHandbook.pdf
Good Morning America….XD.
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@ deedee
I think Zimmerman forgot to read teh manual. LOL.
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then city’s manual has no bearing or control of how a person operates their private patrol on private property. no dee dee police are not allowed on private property (which a gated community is) unless they are called there. so no they have no authority over how the watch is performed. if the residents who perform this watch wanted to they could walk around with machine guns & german shepards. .
the video of trayvon in 7-11 shows exactly how scary looking of a thug he really is, & how much strength he had while attacking an innocent man who was merely protecting his neighborhood. profiling might be illegal for some policemen but not so for citizens.
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@ circusboy9010
If you actually believe that to be true then you do not mind posting a link where that is stated as fact. Excuse me if I am not taking your word for it, but you have a history of talking in fictional terms and have yet to provide any facts.
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circusboy,
Let me ask you one question because you’ve gone beyond ridiculous: If somehow Trayvon Martin came back to life, would you tell him to his face that he deserved to get shot and die?
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@ brothawolf
One thing I notice about circusboy is when he thinks he has the smoking gun he runs in here to say it but when you asks for facts for any type of questions you bring to him….he does not respond back.
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@sharina I have researched everything stated here and fact checked. this is not about me or my opinions but fact backed up by reality. you are so caught up in the emotion and hype you can’t believe anything because you still have the 4 year old photo of trayvon. look at the video of him in the convenience store & you will see the grown thug he is. period. this has nothing to do with race but reality.
again I will repost the law and dissect it for your simple mind.here is the entire law my responses to help your simple mind will be in caps.
776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.
776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.—
(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.
(2) The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person; or
(b) The person or persons sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or
(c) The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an unlawful activity; or
(d) The person against whom the defensive force is used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person entering or attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer.
(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
(4) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person’s dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.
(5) As used in this section, the term:
(a) “Dwelling” means a building or conveyance of any kind, including any attached porch, whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent, mobile or immobile, which has a roof over it, including a tent, and is designed to be occupied by people lodging therein at night.
(b) “Residence” means a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or permanently or is visiting as an invited guest.
(c) “Vehicle” means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, which is designed to transport people or property.
776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—
(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).
776.041 Use of force by aggressor. —The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.
this is the part that applies to zimmerman
776.041 Use of force by aggressor. —The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
SEE THE WORD UNLESS???? SO EVEN IF GEORGE ZIMMERMAN STARTED THE FIGHT THAT ONE WORD EXONERATES THE MAN. SO YOU SEE IT DOES NOT MATTER WHO STARTED THE FIGHT OR WHAT REASON HE WAS FOLLOWING TRAYVON MURDERER (TRAYVON WOULD HAVE KILLED ZIMM IF HE HAD NOT BEEN STOPPED) READ THE WORDS LADY . HAVING YOUR HEAD BOUNCED OFF OF CONCRETE SATISFY’S THAT REQUIREMENT. OF COURSE IN YOUR UNIVERSE 2+2=5 .
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@ circusboy9010
I am going to be bold enough to call you a stupid emotional idiot. I have told you several times I did not see Martin’s photo as a child. I have stated several times my information is from the 911 tapes, so where are you getting this belief that my answers are based on photos. I have only seen Zimmerman’s photos. I have also not once referred to Martin as a child, but a young man which is what is is dumb a**.
I have shown little or no emotion in my responses but have given facts. I stopped bothering with facts when you became to dumb to understand them. Still too dumb to understand them as far as I am concerned. Copy paste from emotional racist irrational sources and not even the balls to do a real comprehensive fact check.
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@ circusboy9010
Now to answer the information you copied and paste from my other posts.
I will start at the bottom and dumb it down for you.
“776.041 Use of force by aggressor. —The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or”—Since you so believe this applies to Zimmerman then you will agree with the rest of the room (we have already discussed this) that Zimmerman attached Martin. This is the only way and reason why this statue would even remotely have anything to do with Zimmerman. Again you have made no point in this. Everyone in this room already speculated that Zimmerman attacked Martin. Now that we are in agreeance lets move on.
Now lets analyze this unless part. “(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or”—Do you see that little part that sates clear as day that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger. This part requires that Zimmerman made an effort to escape and he did not he just shot him. Martin should have not only had a gun shot and bruised knuckles if Zimmerman had tried to escape, but he should have had a bruised chest, arms, even head. Martin’s Autopsy shows that Zimmerman did not land any punches on him which begs the question of how much fight did Zimmerman put up. Zimmerman did not even need to punch him to get him off but bite. He had more options than that gun alone.
Also Zimmerman’s own family stated that he only shot because Martin went for the gun. Considering that gun was in Zimmerman’s waist band, I can speculate two things here. 1) Zimmerman had the gun drawn and Martin grabbed for it. 2) Zimmerman at some point got the best of Martin and chose to shoot. I find it hard to believe that Martin is punching him and then decides to grab the gun in his waist band, while straddling Zimmerman.
You tired of losing yet.
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@ circusboy9010
As far as the first statue you presented it does not apply to Zimmerman and I think you know good and well why, but I may analyze it later so you can finally wrap you simple mind around how stupid you really are.
“SEE THE WORD UNLESS???? SO EVEN IF GEORGE ZIMMERMAN STARTED THE FIGHT THAT ONE WORD EXONERATES THE MAN. SO YOU SEE IT DOES NOT MATTER WHO STARTED THE FIGHT OR WHAT REASON HE WAS FOLLOWING TRAYVON MURDERER (TRAYVON WOULD HAVE KILLED ZIMM IF HE HAD NOT BEEN STOPPED) READ THE WORDS LADY . HAVING YOUR HEAD BOUNCED OFF OF CONCRETE SATISFY’S THAT REQUIREMENT. OF COURSE IN YOUR UNIVERSE 2+2=5 .”—-Actually that one word does not excuse him and I have happily explained why. I did not say he had to have a reason for following Martin, but that statue does rule Zimmerman out if he did start it because contrary to what you believe who started it plays a big role in whether or not Zimmerman goes to jail or not. If it did not matter who started it then Zimmerman would have simply said he did and why he did instead of trying to say a dead man started it.
Actually 2+2=4, but I can understand with you lack of education how you came to that conclusion.
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@ Sharina
LOL! You have the patience of Job. Circusboy has taken over from Douglas.
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@ circusboy9010
If you don’t mind post links. i am the type of gal that likes to read for myself. I am not big on people telling me what to think. Although that works for you, It does not work for me.
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@ truthbetold
I can give dougie a little credit though. He atleast had sense enough to know what parts of the law did not apply to Zimmerman. Circusboy has no idea which part applies and believes they all do. LOL. To make matters worse is keeps getting me and brothawolf confused with each other. Half the time I am not sure he knows who is he responding to.
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wow that’s amazing because I”ve travelled for over 14 years doing what i do because i don’t suffer idiots or control freaks. I can’t work for other people because i always think for myself. so there goes that one about me not thinking for myself. I observe facts & double check before anything comes out of my mouth.
if you read the first part which excludes zimmerman , the unless part includes him because he was perceiving his eminent death , which is included in the unless, part of unless means. so it does not matter if anyone was profiled(which is not illegal for citizens to do), or who attacked who (it is known martin attacked zimmerman), who was white , black or purple. martin was trying to kill a man who was breaking no laws though it was more than likely possible martin was casing homes for robbery . it is also a known fact crime has dropped more than 80% since martins death. want to read for your self love?? do what I did spend hours combing through racist bullshit and rants.
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I knew he wouldn’t answer my question.
You disappoint me, circusboy.
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emotional idiot?? I”m not the one who’s making statements based on emotion instead of facts. like I ssaid, in your world 2+2=5. read the law according to the law it does not matter who attacked who. really read the law. if you say other wise you are either retarded and lack reading comprehension skills , or your emotions are clouding your judgement.
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@brothawolf, you are way too rapped up in this if you think this is about you. I”m just a tunnel for information & truth which is if you read the law all the way through, the only thing that matters is martin on top of Zimmerman slamming his head on hard concrete, that alone justify’s slaying that fucking cretin. purple , yellow, polkadotted color is not an issue in this case. attacking a man who is protecting his neighborhood is.
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@ circusboy9010
Working for yourself has little or nothing to do with thinking for yourself. I can find the same stuff you just posted on a racist website word for word. Throws your theory of thinking for yourself out the window. Do you want a link to the very racist site that says everything you said word for word. Your ability to double check must be a biased website but you have far from checked facts. You can’t even post the links to your facts, so I hardly doubt you checked one.
Ever since I been on this board not once have I hung on to another persons theory. I came up with my own based on my own research. Good look finding someone that I have copied word for word.
“if you read the first part which excludes zimmerman , the unless part includes him because he was perceiving his eminent death , which is included in the unless, part of unless means. so it does not matter if anyone was profiled(which is not illegal for citizens to do), or who attacked who (it is known martin attacked zimmerman), who was white , black or purple. martin was trying to kill a man who was breaking no laws though it was more than likely possible martin was casing homes for robbery “—-This is where you screw up because you can’t read past unless. I walked you through like a kindergartener and you still do not get the unless part of the whole law. Let me dumb it down more.
Zimmerman is the aggressor per that law (are you keeping up so far). As the aggressor (Zimmerman) he can not claim stand your ground and he can not claim regular self-defense thus you would have 776.041 Use of force by aggressor (Zimmerman). —The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who…to fall back on. In the case that he (Zimmerman) claim self defense as the aggressor (Zimmerman) would only be safe if:
1. Zimmerman were not attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of a forcible felony (Treason and any felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against a person. If a felony is classified as forcible, it may have significance for other aspects of the criminal law). Now if you threatened someone you would not be safe under part 1 of that law. According to your own words that you are too dumb to realize, Zimmerman has committed a Forcible Felony which excludes him from the first part of this law.
2. If Zimmerman believe that the person would kill him and he made every reasonable possible aspect of escaping the situation without an amount of force that would cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant (Martin), then he would be safe under this law. The fact that Zimmerman made little or no effort to escape should exclude him from this law as well.
The reason Zimmerman has so little options to cling to in regards to self-defense is because he is the aggressor. You yourself have openly agreed he is the aggressor. The problem is you know so little about the law that you really have no idea what he can and can not claim so you just throw in a statue and convince yourself he can claim them all.
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@circusboy9010
I would have to disagree about something being wrong with a person if they do not find the law to support it not mattering who attacked who first.
776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution..which I have listed before does not excuse Zimmerman since A)He was not in his residence or place he has the right to be (So the Home statue does not apply), B) it is not clear from the evidence that Zimmerman shot Martin in self-defense (so the self defense statues do not apply). Therefor the statues that would prevent persecution have not been sufficiently proven for Mr. Zimmerman case so he can be prosecuted by law.
Then we have 776.041 Use of force by aggressor. Sharina basically covered everything about that part. It does not excuse someone from prosecution. Please reread 776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution.. and see how that statue(776.041) is not listed meaning that Zimmerman would still be prosecuted even as the aggressor.
The lack of wounds on Mr.Martin…implies that it is very unlikely that Zimmerman, like Sharina has mentioned, did everything in his power to get away. Regardless of if racial profiling is not “illegal” for citizens it does not give someone the right to follow and harass someone because then it becomes “illegal” stalking and when it becomes physical it becomes “assault” because guess what HATE CRIMES are illegal regardless of if a person is a citizen or employed by a city or government. To put into the same sentence racial profiling and not about race is foolish because racial profiling is COMPLETELY about race.
Just try to be considerate of all the facts instead on bashing Mr.Martin and try to connect on a human level and consider that MAYBE he was not a thug, MAYBE he was just a normal teenager who made mistakes, just like how Mr. Zimmerman is a normal man who also has made mistakes. Can we please just look at the evidence and NOT do character assassinations because we do not know those two men.
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@ circusboy9010
I am still waiting on you to tell me where I mention the race of Martin or Zimmerman. I have not at all and yet you keep claiming how I did.
“want to read for your self love?? do what I did spend hours combing through racist bullshit and rants.”—I would love to read those magically crime statistics for myself, but considering you refuse to post links…I doubt they are actual facts. Also if you have to comb through racial bs then those are not facts. There is not a comment section at the end of hard facts. LOL. Sorry you are that confused with the difference between media facts and actual facts.
“emotional idiot?? I”m not the one who’s making statements based on emotion instead of facts. like I ssaid, in your world 2+2=5. read the law according to the law it does not matter who attacked who. really read the law. if you say other wise you are either retarded and lack reading comprehension skills , or your emotions are clouding your judgement.”—I have actually posted links to my facts. None of them have lead to a news report or comment board. They all have been actual statues or just plain recording etc. You can’t post a link because it exposes the fraud in you. The only emotion I have showed is laughter because there is nothing funnier than you making a fool of yourself with your comprehensive media facts. LOL.
Did you study law on Fox or ABC? LOL. How about your math skills huh? Did you learn that from Captain Crunch. Come back when you can provide some actual links to your facts,
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I must say. Nothing funnier than watching a racist pretend he is not a racist.
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nothing about me fits any defintion of racist. there is a black woman making love to my cuban father as we speak. After going to my mexican buddy’s to get a vehicle fixed. nothing about me screams I think my race is superior to any other race. no farthest thing from racist as i have friends from all creeds and colors I met in circus life and am welcome in anyone of thousands of city’s all over the world with a spare bedroom for me anytime I like. some even let me use their cars. you just hate someone has martin supporters pegged for the racist they are because if martin was puerto rican they would not care about justice.
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circusboy,
I’m not going to argue because that’s what you want. It’s not the same as agreeing with you. It’s just knowing when to turn your vehicle when you realize that you’re heading down the path that leads to a cliff.
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@Sharina
…If Martin had no bruises on his body.. and Zimmerman was bruised and apparently bleeding.. would that not make Martin having the upper-hand? Making Zimmerman shoots in desperation?
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@ stevenhaws
I never said Martin did not have bruises on his body, I said he had a gun shot and bruised knuckles. I also never said Zimmerman was not beaten and that Martin did not have the upper hand, but let me be fully clear on something Martin having the upper hand does not excuse a shooting if Zimmerman did not make every effort to get away before resorting to shooting. The fact that Martin lacked any type of bruising other than knuckles and a gun shot actually suggest Zimmerman just laid there and decided to resort to shooting, but it was not a last one.
Logically speaking….What man or woman for that matter is going to let someone attack them and just not once try to hit them back? Who just lays their and take that? Not one idiot no matter how out of shape, not matter the upper hand, nothing is going to stop them from fighting back.
Even in cases of rape victims they fight back, they bite scratch something…Do they not?There are cases where they don’t if a gun is on them or knife or other circumstances, but those grabbed in an alley don’t usually just say “hey rape me.”
Before trying to confuse what I am saying please take the time to read exactly what I said. I hate being accused of saying something I did not.
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@ miguel miquel
I could tell you how you are racist and prejudice or I could allow you to expand your knowledge by reading some of your own comments. You like to read…right?
Guess what? Almost everyone in this room has friends of different cultures and races. Hispanic or Mexican is not a race it is a culture.
Lastly what makes Martin supporters racist…because they don’t agree with you. There response to Martin is no different from your response to Zimmerman and if you are claiming not to be racist then they are not racist.
I would also like to point out that Martin supporters are white, black, have Hispanic backgrounds, etc. Now who are they suppose to be racist against. How can they claim superior race too who exactly.
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@ stevenhaws
Just to be fair because you just joined in the conversation. I never said Martin did not beat Zimmerman. What I said and have been saying is Zimmerman is not as squeaky clean as he claims. Martin being a teenager is not either.
Zimmerman got my suspicion when he lied at the bail bond hearing. In his 911 tapes he clearly stated that he thought Martin looked to be in his late teens. AT the hearing in his apology he told Martin’s parents he thought he was a little bit younger than him. Zimmerman is 28. If he could lie so easily about something so small then I figured what else can this man lie about.
The became his tale of life and death. I was in a life and death situation with my sister. I tell this story as if it was a friend a lot of times, but I am going to be bold and tell you my story. When my sister was high she came at me with a knife over a pair of shoes that were mine, but because it was similar she thought were hers. I did not lay and let her senselessly attack me I hit her back. I hit her with what I could get my hands on and even bit her. She ran away and called 911. I did not chase.
Zimmerman and his family have been painting this picture of him not fighting back which is completely unrealistic. I would be more likely to believe him if he had stated…he tried to get in a few licks or he tried to do something or better yet he actually did something.
The reason for this is I am actually beginning to believe that Zimmerman felt that if he did not hit him then he would be protected under stand your ground. He thought it was an open and shut case. Did he plan to kill Martin? No, but I believe he had intentions of detaining him until the cops came.
I also took into consideration that Zimmerman had the gun in his waist band, which is striking considering his father and brother(not saying it is true) stated that Martin may have grabbed at the gun and then Zimmerman shot him. Tell me what kind of real sense does it make…If you have the upper hand in the fight…Why reach for a persons gun in their waist band? What good would it be when you are winning?
Lets say he did reach for that gun. Then would the two not be struggling with it? A clear shot to the chest would be unlikely.
These are the simple little flaws in his story that no one cares to question. They are more concerned with what Martin was wearing or Zimmerman’s bruising to even look at some evidence in front of them.
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@ Abagond:
Miguel said:
“nothing about me fits any defintion of racist. there is a black woman making love to my cuban father as we speak”
LOL!
I needed that. It’s been a rough 2 days at work.
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@ truthbetold
I did not even catch that. LOL
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yes sharina you are correct, except for following someone is not starting a fight. even if zimmerman did start the fight , the exception to that come after the word unless, where he was having the perception of loss of life which is the exception to the law that covers his action not matter who started the fight or if anyone was breaking the law. read it again. your inherent racism , emotional thinking , or retardation is keeping you from seeing this.
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@circusboy9010
Read these documents that have been released to the public. Something as simple as Zimmerman’s weight that night has even been included (apparently he was 200 pounds that night giving him 40 pounds on Martin). It may help you in helping others see your reasoning for supporting Zimmerman or it may help you to see to understand why people are in support of Martin.
184 pages, so take your time. I haven’t looked through everything but it can make for great discussion 😀
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http://www.foxnews.com/us/slideshow/2012/05/17/photos-from-george-zimmerman-investigation-released/#slide=10
Good photos of Zimmerman injuries that night and of the gun.
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@ Sharina
Miguel visited by blog last night and left a few gems.
I’ll be writing a post about them in the next dew days…for my pleasure.
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@truthbetold I”m sorry you have to subject your personality to the whims of other peoples demands for mere pieces of paper and an illusion of security. I am a clown @ times and helping other people laugh or smile when they need it fullfills me. however I take great offense at being called a racist because I deal with people of all creeds and colors all day long when I work , giving out free balloons to everybody that will take one. I don’t critisize anybody (ok just homeless people) for race color creed or age. I can live anywhere on the planet I want to because what I do allows me to travel anytime and anywhere i want. most likely I”ve been to your town and likely have tried to or have sold something to you. (cotton candy, sno conde show light stuffed animal etc.)
samuel clemens states “nothing kills prejudice l& ignorance like travel” well I’ve travelled probably about 11million miles in my short life, & read tens of thousands of books. I seek enlightement not ignorance and emotional thinking based on lack of knowledge that is why things are the way they are. this case has nothing to do with race but is being used to create a chasim between colors and keep the population from uniting against the powers that are holding us all down equally. tyvm & gb. quit your job sell everything & be freee.
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@ circusboy9010
I have an idea. Respond to something I have said to you. I know I am correct. I have been correct since I started even remotely responding to you. You are still too blind to realize that. To you correct means agreeing with you.
“except for following someone is not starting a fight. even if zimmerman did start the fight , the exception to that come after the word unless, where he was having the perception of loss of life which is the exception to the law that covers his action not matter who started the fight or if anyone was breaking the law. read it again. your inherent racism , emotional thinking , or retardation is keeping you from seeing this.”—This is where you start to look stupid. You have been quoting a law that states Zimmerman as the aggressor. You have been stating how this law applies to Zimmerman in all your post and now you are claiming he is not the aggressor. You are completely delirious. You have no idea what you are saying and when you are saying it. Again you think all laws apply to him and they, my friend, do not. He can’t be the aggressor and not be the aggressor on a whim simply because you realize it does not prove him as innocent as you want him to be.
I have read unless and have explained unless to you yet here you are believing the word unless exonerates him of crimes. Again I ask you. If it did not matter who started then crime, then why is Zimmerman and his team constantly claiming Martin started it. Only Martin was the aggressor and even a fool knows that if you start an argument the law is limited in its ability to protect you.
Again you can not remotely tell me or prove where I have been emotional, racist, or retarded. Where have I remotely displayed any of that. Oh that is right in your mind. If anyone has fit the definition of retarded it has been you. You are not only obviously stupid, but you are obtuse and have waged a completely ineffective argument that only circulates around your inability to understand the legal situation at hand. I don’t think you really understand anything for that matter.
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@ circusboy9010
I want you to quote one shred of proof that I stated something racist, regarding Zimmerman or Martin’s skin color, or emotional. Just one. Since you keep claiming I have said those type of things.
The fact that you are losing a dispute and now need to try to make someone look incompetent is sad (try being a complete overstatement). What is more sad is that you spend most of your time copying and paste what you sadly considered to be intelligent people verbal up chuck. Get a brain from somewhere.
Repeating things won’t make it facts and it won’t make your failed case more realistic. It is still a work of fiction. Do more research on your case and then come back when you actually can get it together enough to not only know who you are talking to, but actually know what you are talking about.
LOL. This dude believe unless exonerates Zimmerman. I should take this to facebook. LOL
I tell you what clown ( maybe that is why you are such a joke) when you can fully read that law and stop taking it apart to read the part you want to believe, then we can talk seriously…Until then Adios sucker.
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@ circusboy9010
I almost for got. If you truly believe the unless protects Zimmerman (lol). Then would you be willing to bet money on it. I can get an actual lawyer to come in this room and tell you whether or not Zimmerman is protected by that unless and if it matters who started the fight or not. Better yet we can get one of those lawyer hotlines or send the questions to a neutral professional. If I win I will not comment anymore. If you win what do you want?
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@ Deedee
The problem with people like circusboy is that their logic is based on nothing. I mean you as well as others have provided some information for him and he goes to the same logic or trying to twist everything to make it seem like he is right about Zimmerman.
I just watched him take a law (he posted it again) states how it applies to Zimmerman and just toss it on a drop of the hat just because he realized that it makes Zimmerman the aggressor and in order to back peddle then changes starts going on how it does not matter who attacked who.
He is really at that delusional point where you don’t know whether to pity him or break him down a little bit more. I think he should provide his own facts. If he is going to take a stance on Zimmerman then do that with dignity, but for him to not post anything and when he is cornered start trying to insult others is ridiculous.
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@circusboy9010
Again where has anyone on this board mentioned race? You have been the only one constantly peddling race. Race this race that….that has been all you and only you. I don’t know if you are trying to convince us or yourself that you are not racist but you are doing a terrible job at it.
“because I deal with people of all creeds and colors all day long when I work , giving out free balloons to everybody that will take one. I don’t critisize anybody (ok just homeless people) for race color creed or age.”—-Get out of here. Even the most hard core racist deals with people every single day.
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pages 26-27 has some interesting information concerning the case.
1)Martin was running in the direction of where he was residing.
2)police found no indication that Mr.Martin was committing any crime at the time.
3)The encounter between Mr.Zimmerman and Mr. Martin “was ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman…”
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@ deedee7789
Thank you for those links. I will take the time to read them and get back to you as soon as I get the chance.
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I have 7 phd’s & a high propensity to learning & an open mind. the only way, according to the law, zimmerman is guilty is in the law of a racist, because only racist thingk zimmerman is guilty. the law says if the person is involved in ann illegal activity. so let’s suppose zimmerman was chasing trayvon gun in hand, which would be illegal since trayvon would not have been attacked him. if this was true and trayvon somehow got the better of the man and was on his chest pounding his head in, at that time zimmerman would be in perception his life was about to end hence making him available to be in included in stand your own ground law. no matter how you put the situation, zimmerman was on his back percieving the end of his life, it does not matter who did what or if anybody was racist in their intent.(trayvon was actually stalking zimmerman according to the 911 calls) it was probably martin.
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@ circusboy9010
Your 7 PHDs still have not helped you answer the simple questions I and others have asked you. Blah Blah Blah is all your words mean at this point. You can circle the drain with the rest of the Sh*t.
What Circusboy has accomplished:
1. Avoiding providing links
2. Avoiding facts.
3. Avoiding simple questions a 5 year old can answer.
4. Avoiding integrity.
“so let’s suppose zimmerman was chasing trayvon gun in hand, which would be illegal since trayvon would not have been attacked him. if this was true and trayvon somehow got the better of the man and was on his chest pounding his head in, at that time zimmerman would be in perception his life was about to end hence making him available to be in included in stand your own ground law”—Seeing as this is a scenario I will not comment on the unlikelihood of it, but in that event Zimmerman is the aggressor (you keeping up here). Martin gets the upper hand ( this sounds so similar to my scenario it is almost funny). At this point Zimmerman has only one option under the law because fearing for your life does not satisfy the statue enough for him to claim it (main reason is because Zimmerman is the the aggressor in your scenario). This is where the duty to retreat comes in. Zimmerman would have had to made an effort and a clear one to withdraw from the fight (then he would have been covered under 2(b) of the law. Or Zimmerman made every effort to escape the fight without bringing any deadly harm to the assailant (Martin) (If Zimmerman did do this then he would be protected under 2(a)) but we all know what he did. Oh I am scared pop pop.
Why do I feel he did not? He could have pulled the gun on Martin and he would have stopped attacking him. He could have bit Martin and ran away. He could have punched Martin and ran away. He could have kicked Martin in the balls and got away. All acts that allowed him to get away without further harm to himself or the death of Martin. All of these are reasonable means of escaping danger without the use of force which would likely cause death or great bodily harm.
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@ circusboy9010
FYI I like how you used my scenario and changed the words a bit hoping so desperately it will line up with your views. Try again.
Although I know you will avoid this question like the plague, at what point was Martin stalking Zimmerman?
Martin was in the road walking. Zimmerman only mentions that he looks strange and that Martin was staring at him. Looking at someone is not stalking. Here is a nice definition of stalking for the learning impaired “the act or an instance of stalking, or harassing another in an aggressive, often threatening and illegal manner: Stalking is now a crime in many states.”
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The 180+ document link has some interesting information…
The shot was a contact shot and went through a part of Mr.Martin’s heart and his lung. The medical examiner (forensics) listed it as HOMICIDE because of the type of shot. The police at the scene wanted to pursue a HOMICIDE charge (manslaughter). There was blood on Mr. Zimmerman’s clothes that was his but if I remember correctly there was no way to determine if the other blood was of Mr. Martin and there was even some non-human blood (…O.o). Mr. Martin’s body , however, had his and Zimmerman’s blood on it. The blood sections are in the 180+ doc linked up earlier so someone may have to fact check. Interesting…
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@ deedee
I just took a look at the photos. Are those from that night or the day after? If those are from the day after or even the day. LOL. I have had more bruising falling off my bike.
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At least circusboy admits he is a clown. You have to give him that. lol
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dee dee the coronors report has nothing to do with anything ulness it shows trayvon shot in the back . the only thing that matters is zimmerman was getting his head bashed in by martin hence allowing him use of deadly force by stand your ground law. following someone once is not stalking, stalking is a multiple instance offence , & if anybody was stalking anybody it was martin because he was staring zimmerman down and probably phsically daring the man to get out of his vehicle. for all that is really known marting could have been setting zimmerman up for killing so they could go on about their burglary crimes with nobody to watch them.
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“I have 7 phd’s & a high propensity to learning & an open mind.”
LOL!!!! I can’t take it anymore!!! Hahahahaha!!!! It’s too much! LOL!
@ Sharina
What circus boy and Douglas failed to say is the night when Zimmerman accosted the boy, the police declined to give him a blood and ETOH( alcohol ) test. Any evidence that Zimmerman was intoxicated is long gone, which could’ve proved without question, his state of mind.
Plus, against the lead investigators advise, they let him go home. And not only that, they let him leave the crime scene with the blood and grass stained shirt he was wearing when the alleged attack took place. This shirt could’ve proved to be a valuable piece of evidence in the case.
And last but not least, because Martin was a minor and they neglected to call his parents, it’s a breach of standard police procedure.
So many elements here are twisted and reek of a police cover-up and racial prejudice.
My ex-co worker, who works in Orlando for a TV station, tells me that Sanford has had a long and ardous history with KKK activity. This isn’t a shock that this police cover up happened. What I do find shocking, is the happiness in AmeriKlan for a dead boy.
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@ brothawolf
I guess I could give him credit for that. LOL.
@ truthbetold
I am realizing even that does not shock me anymore.
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@ Sharina
Have you read my post?
http://diaryofanegress.com/2012/05/23/scary-clothing/
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@ truthbetold
Not yet. Thanks for the link.
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@ circusboy9010
So now your theory is Martin was the stalker because he was staring at Zimmerman, yet you say stalking is only considered stalking if done more than once. LOL. **rolling on the floor** LOL. Now Martin is a they…LOL. You are too much LOL.
Did you forget the part about how the stand your ground law makers believe Zimmerman can not claim it.
“Dennis Baxley, a Republican state representative and co-author of the 2005 self-defense law, said Zimmerman negated his ability to claim immunity under the law by chasing Martin.
“This law is for innocent, law-abiding citizens who are under attack by a perpetrator,” Baxley told The Huffington Post. “Anyone who is out pursuing and confronting people is not protected by this statute.”
Former Republican State Sen. Durell Peadon, another co-author of the law, said Zimmerman “has no protection under my law.”
“They need to prosecute whoever shot the kid,” Peadon told the Miami Herald on Tuesday.
Gun rights advocates also question the decision not to charge Zimmerman.
“I don’t see why he hasn’t been arrested,” said Sean Caranna, executive director of Florida Carry, a gun rights group.
Zimmerman had no right to follow and confront Martin in the first place, Caranna noted.”
Some night time reading for you.
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@circusboy9010
“if anybody was stalking anybody it was martin because he was staring zimmerman down and probably phsically daring the man to get out of his vehicle”
This is without a doubt one of the dumbest things I’ve read anywhere ever.
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For those of you trying to use the fact that the photos were of him when he was younger and don’t represent him properly, I give you this (taken about 9 days before he was murdered)…..
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@ Michelle
Thank you very much for posting that picture.
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After the tragedy of the murder of a minor child, comes the tragedy of certain individuals desperately trying to convince themselves and everyone else that Zimmerman was dead to right in targeting, stalking and gunning down this kid — a kid who no one has yet been able to show was doing anything other than chatting on a cell phone with his girlfriend while making his way home from an errand to buy candy and tea.
Imagine skinny, teenaged Trayvon, who was Black, was replaced in this tragedy with a skinny, teenaged apricot-haired, blue-eyed, freckle-faced, white Cody, then it wouldn’t be difficult at all to imagine that nearly all of these same indignant and self-righteous individuals would be screaming murder most foul. [This scenario reminds me of the late 90’s film, “A Time to Kill”, starring Samuel L. Jackson and Matthew McConaughey, wherein McConaughey’s character, an attorney, know the only way he even had a chance of getting a conviction against the gang of white men who brutally raped and beat Samuel L. Jackson’s young daughter, was to have the members of the white jury close their eyes and imagine it was a little white girl who had been so savagely raped and beaten.]
But Trayvon wasn’t white, he was Black; so, even though his only wrongdoing was perpetrating the inexcusable crime of being an unidentified young Black male while making his way quietly through a mixed raced community, his murder is justified in the minds of certain people because of their own need for him to stand in as the whipping boy / scapegoat / substitute for the Big Black Boogeyman who rapes, robs and murders them in all their worst imaginings….
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I am curious as to how many people that are against arresting George Zimmerman only went to the “anti-Trayvon Martin” sites to get their information. I am only asking because I saw a slew of them that started a smear campaign and posted pictures trying to portray him as a “thug” and the pictures were not even him. The sites were forced to retract the photos and apologize…but they still kept up with the smear campaign. What I find really interesting is that Circusboy9010 talks about Zimmerman fearing for his life but not once admits that Trayvon may have been fearing for his life while he was being chased down by a grown man.,.,oh but wait I forgot…he heard a 911 call(not for sure which one he listened too since ALL of the 911 calls that I listened to clearly prove Zimmerman chased after Trayvon) that somehow gave him the 7phd conclusion that Trayvon was chasing Zimmerman. This may clear some things up for him since he can’t seem to find any links to prove his “theory” …
Phone records prove Trayvon was on the phone with his girlfriend when he was approached and attacked by Zimmerman:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-arrest-now-abc-reveals-crucial-phone/story?id=15959017#.T72mA0VDyAU
Witness 911 call (A man with a white T-shirt on top):
http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DDSyBNJqSQic%26feature%3Dshare&h=MAQGcgR7kAQGGav8yfe9gfV6uZrwcIdm90O-8mRh-g40jQw&enc=AZNS7tDEdHrqHRQQ0v05Joibfz4dLe-BIYKzBf6nlWpATVG1UN8AdEwQFfQDbcHsDf9S4r8LuyRNwB8vkdKSFPBB
Witness ignored by police the night of Trayvon’s murder:
http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D08Rf4G0JOOk%26feature%3Dshare&h=qAQFjoOm6AQEFnKxGEG31PDnjjJnEabflqZ36_saYww7YXA&enc=AZOnIbdPE9YDcbgPMpw5hXDIEBetFpxqO1DQesKMqG0XHI0hq9OAehl5Wjxi3deKr-b1tm0HT7F5Wmete4dQ46wP
George Zimmerman 911 Call:
http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DDAUM4gfdI-w%26feature%3Dshare&h=KAQF9gq_TAQE96ZatwkwGGFWIbD0a-ev6d5xJGejU0S1pCg&enc=AZPG0GLVR9IG2F_xXd5X7pP2rsVUgmTKWoB6IiQmyXjJ8TkZH-W3FuypTIZu0hLEHh9kO8TASq7bKR4AZk86mG79
I have more links to other witness 911 calls if anyone wants me to post them let me know.
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@ Sharina
You are welcome 🙂
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“Imagine skinny, teenaged Trayvon, who was Black, was replaced in this tragedy with a skinny, teenaged apricot-haired, blue-eyed, freckle-faced, white Cody, then it wouldn’t be difficult at all to imagine that nearly all of these same indignant and self-righteous individuals would be screaming murder most foul. [This scenario reminds me of the late 90’s film, “A Time to Kill”, starring Samuel L. Jackson and Matthew McConaughey, wherein McConaughey’s character, an attorney, know the only way he even had a chance of getting a conviction against the gang of white men who brutally raped and beat Samuel L. Jackson’s young daughter, was to have the members of the white jury close their eyes and imagine it was a little white girl who had been so savagely raped and beaten.]”
thi is not a black or white thing, it happens that the people breaking into homes where all young black males, if it were young green space alien males(assuming space aliens have males ) gz would have been targeting (profiling. nothing wrong with that it exist because it works) green space aliens.
martin was the stalker in this case most likely because he was standing there watching gz’s movements and was not merely walking to the store and back he was randomly walking around casing homes for burglary. he was standing there and even walked around gz’s truck looking at him with evil intent.
just because another theory does not line up with your racist theory that martin was hunted down like the animal he was does not mean it’s stupid to think of such. that thinking is narrow minded & racist.
if martin was fearing for his life why does his call to his gf not reflect that sentiment?? however martin still had a way out and had no reason to attack gz and had more than enough opportunity to have gotten away with nobody (includingn gz) finding out his domiciles location. which reflects the fact that martin most likely attacked zimmerman. a runnint person in great physical shape like martin could have made the 70 yards home in about 15 seconds, martin had over 4 minutes. a person in fear for their life does not stay on the phone with the gf, martin was probably toying with zimmerman. a person in fear of their life would have the gf call 911 while he rand directly home or to a friends house and gotten inside as quickly as possible if even to a strangers home and called 911 from inside.
a smear campain ?? martin did that when he wore a hoody (like a hoodlum or thug) gold teeth(like a gangbanger or drug dealer) & tattoos. none of these things on their own really spells alot . though walking around in the rain randomly reall does not help . the 711 video really shows the thug he was and little resembles the 4 year old photo’s most people associate with the little criminal.
child??? he was a young man not even a child. 17 in many places is old enough to own your own home, be married etc… have all the responsibility’s of an adult . so to call him a child is only to demonize gz who cimmited no crimes that night.
Zimmerman had no right to follow and confront Martin in the first place, Caranna noted.”
actually yes he did have the right to follow him, they were not on a public street, they were on private property in a gated community , where normal rights are not the same. even on a public street anybody has the right to follow what they percieve as a criminal in their neighborhood. this however was all private property and yes gz did have the right to approach the thug to access his being there and what he was doing out walking around in the rain(escpecially since there was a rash of break in’s , & martin fit the description of burglars described by roofing crews that were caught and proven to be the type of person doing the break ins young black males).
the information that shows martin to be a thug , criminal , is all directly from news,911 calls, video feeds, eye witnesses, etc. reality is not an anti martin website or sentiment , but a fact the dude was in fact a criminal who attempted to kill an innocent man. this has noting to do with race but justice for a man who was only protecting his neighborhood, and is a good member in standing with his community.
gz’s past has nothing to do with this as being charged with crimes does not make one a criminal. however martin was convicted by his school & kicked out many times, found with burlary tool and womens jewelry, empty pot bag.
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Ladies and gentlemen:
I give you the crux of this debate:
“gz’s past has nothing to do with this as being charged with crimes does not make one a criminal. however martin was convicted by his school & kicked out many times, found with burlary tool and womens jewelry, empty pot bag.”
The past, as Circusboy calls it, does not apply to whites. Hence the “Get Over It” argument. The past, however, does apply and will continue to apply to all blacks regardless of: length of time for said allegation, penance for said allegation and admittance for said allegation.
This is truly the root mentality of white Supremacist AmeriKlan. But to point it out to them would only cause severe mental distress furthering them into a downward spiral called pathological denial.
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wow you should change your screen name to lie be told. it’s not a race issue, gz was not convicted hence it does not matter martin was convicted hence it does matter. this is not a white or black issue in any way. you brought up color where it is not an issue .
the get over it ?? hey my people were slaves for 700 years alot longer than black people who are not and were not the only slaves ever. but to hear an american black talk you would think you were the only slaves ever. however this self defense of george zimmerman is not a racial issue. the only people who think it is are the racist supporters of martin, a man who would have killed zimmerman if he had the chance too. the only downward spiral I see here are the ones who can’t read the basic english law stand your groundn which states it does not matter who attacked who or if anyone was breaking anylaws, zimmerman is innocent.
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@ Miguel
LOL! Thanks…I needed that.
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The only people who think of this murder of Trayvon Martin as a racial issue are the racist supporters of the man who murdered him. In any event, in light of several key witnesses recanting their original statements, it doesn’t look all that good for Zimmerman. One witness states that there was no scuffling noises at all, only the sound of a very young voice “whining”, and that this whining sound ended immediately with sound of a gun fire. Another witness claimed that cops tried to get her say that the person on the bottom of the tussling pair was wearing a red sweater, even though she had already stated that it was too dark to make out any colors. Other witness statements are also not adding up to Zimmerman’s claims either.
In trying to piece this whole thing together, it doesn’t appear that Trayvon was even actually astride Zimmerman the moment that Zimmerman fired a bullet into the boy’s chest. Trayvon was more than likely standing at some distance away from Zimmerman, whining in fear for his life, as Zimmerman pulled a gun from his panties and shot the kid in the chest.
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@circusboy or miguel miguel…
So are you saying that I am racist? Because I noticed that you commented about some things that I posted, even though you did not mention my name. If so who are you saying I am racist against? I will say this…Up until a few days ago…Before Abagond (BA)…I considered to myself to not be racist at all. But now…After Abagond (AA)…I found that I was very wrong. AA I realized that their is more to racism than just “you are or you aren’t” so I felt their are 3 classifications (if anyone would like to add any please feel free) 1. The Knowing Racist-Someone that is fully aware and blatant about their racist views and have no desire to change. 2. The Unknowing Racist (In my opinion the most dangerous kind-which is what I was until a few days ago)-Someone who claims not to be racist but is oblivious to what actually is racist in the eyes of the beholder. 3. The Enlightened Racist (I categorize my self in this type because I am still in the educational and listenting phase)-Someone who starts off as a Knowing Racist or an Unknowing Racist and become humbled and begins the process of Learning and Listening in order for them to become free from Racism. With that said I have another question…Are you saying I am a thug? Because by your definition I apparently am. I wear hoodies all the time especially when it is raining and cold. They are comfortable to wear and warm…the hood provides protection from the elements. I have a tattoo of a scorpion that I got because it is something that identifies a part of me in an artistic form. I may not have gold teeth…but I do have silver teeth because I could only afford to have my front teeth made out of porcelain after having an accident when I was 11. But from how you sound none of that would matter if you seen me because you are stereotyping him based off of his appearance…oh and the fact that he was caught with an empty marijuana baggy….but let us try to forget all of the bad things we did when we were teenagers….I mean heck, I did a whole lot worse than any of the things that they have dug up on Trayvon when I was a teenager. I truly hope that you will sit back and take a look at what you have posted on here and try to understand how racist you actually sound. If I can admit to it so can you 😉
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the only people who think this is about race are the race baiters and racist. I know that race should not be an issue in this case.
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@Miguel Miguel
you only answered one of my questions…I now know you think I am racist.,..but you did not answer…Who are you saying I am racist against? And…Are you saying I am a thug? Please….enlighten me 😉
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@Miguel Miguel
“I know that race should not be an issue in this case.”
I do agree with that statement…It shouldn’t be about race! But…the hard sad truth is that IT IS! You cannot say that it isn’t when you implied that what he was wearing and behavior made him a thug. From my understanding and beliefs that range way back to the first time I ever heard the word “thug” used…was to describe a black male involved in gang/drug related violence. The term “hood” was used to describe the same type of activity for white males. Not sure what the terms for white men now are because I am out of the loop on that but the point is….by stereotyping and using that term you sound racist. Also you claim to not be racist…but consider the fact that you just might be an Unknowing Racist and with that acceptance you can then choose to become an Enlightened Racist (like myself) and LISTEN and LEARN so that you may actually become free from Racism. 🙂
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@ Miguel Miguel
I guess that means you are considering you are the only one that keeps bringing up race.
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@ Miguel “the fail”
So you are basically saying that the individuals that wrote the law and signed it into law can not read English? LOL. Please stop.
I would love to see you tell someone outside of this message board that stupidness. LOL.
Based on your reason I could stalk you and kill you and I would be able to claim stand your ground. LOL!!!!* Rolling on the floor* LOL.
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no sharina that’s not what even happened. you keep forgetting the part where zimmerman was flat on his back with someone sitting on his chest banging his head into the pavement. lol please stop you. your the one who cant’ read and the states attourney is only prosecuting this for political reasons, the states attourney had said exactly just that. it was not prosecutable because the law say’s he is innocent.
michelle calling the young man a thug has nothing to do with race or racism.
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@ Miguel
You do realize what you said and what my question was are two different things right?
I was actually referring to your racism. You are the one that keeps bringing up race. You do realize that right? You are so far gone even the Zimmerman supporters will not align with you to support your stance.
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@ Miguel Miquel
I like how you are still avoiding my question and providing facts though. Keep that up. Works for a lying worm like you.
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nope , I don’t lie it does not align well with the image of integrity I’ve built up over a lifetime of working to do otherwise. you just can’t handle the truth. sorry i bring this up every now and then in the real world, locker room, street corner making balloons etc.. with random people . they read the law and all of them say (I don’t refer to names or color) zimmerman (the person I represent to be zimmerman) is innocent and stand your ground counts him innocent no matter what. this is after going through every possible scenario. you lose sharina carinia. alling me names only makes you seem more the racist you really are. nothing I’ve done or said reflects any definition of racism. have a good night and get back to life and the real world if you know where that is honey.
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@ Miguel
“nope , I don’t lie it does not align well with the image of integrity I’ve built up over a lifetime of working to do otherwise.”—That is a laugh, but let me point out some of your lies.
1. Miguel quote [7 phds] Do you realize how much schooling it takes to get those many PHds? Considering your age and your lack of ability to understand a basic sentence I truly doubt you have 7 phds
2. Miguel quote [black Americans all over do say to be educated is not black.] Funny how blacks have actually be advocating education. Here’s a link http://ed-policy.blogspot.com/2009/03/booker-t-washington-advocate-for-black.html.
3. Miguel quote [so yes honestly I can say with all honesty(not biased I love all people ) that black people are very lazy uneducated & prone to crime.] Funny because I have not one but two degrees to prove this wrong. I don’t wake up with dreams of robbing a store, and I work out almost everyday. It must really hurt you to know I don’t fit that stereotype.
4. Miguel quote [Martin is a stalker] Ok show proof of his previous stalking activity. Heck show proof that he did anything wrong.
“alling me names only makes you seem more the racist you really are.”—Again how does what I said makes me racist? Provide me with one racist statement I said. Calling you stupid is not me being racist. It actually me stating a fact. You are stupid and you have proven it several times. read your own post…Never mind you are too stupid to read.
“you lose sharina carinia.”—Are you two now? My five year old does not even say things like this. You are a grown man. Seriously?! LOL.
“nothing I’ve done or said reflects any definition of racism. have a good night and get back to life and the real world if you know where that is honey.”—Need I quote more of your racist remarks or are you done making a fool of yourself. As far as your real world comment.. *sigh***Rolling eyes* Do you even know what reality is. I guess that is a moot point because if you did then you would actually join the rest of the room in living in it. I guess all the clown suits and mini taxi cars have warped your brain into believing that is real. I will give you a slight pass for that.
Anyway I guess you are not tired of looking like the loser you are so reply at your own risk. I am far from tired of making you look like a loser.
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Ive not looked like a loser at any time. however your trying to pound someone down into the dirt for not having a racist viewpoint is getting old.
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