Franz Boas, the foremost anthropologist in America in the early 1900s, thought that the low position of blacks in the country was due mainly to white prejudice – yet he believed that race was a fact of nature and that whites had bigger brains on average.
Boas, more than any other single white thinker, has made White American thought less racist, especially at the level of science. He has even affected how black thinkers like W.E.B. Du Bois, Alain Locke and Carter G. Woodson saw black people.
Yet it is easy enough to find racist statements in his writing, like this one about blacks:
The alveolar arch is pushed forward and thus gains an appearance which reminds us of the higher apes … The same may be said of the broadness and flatness of the nose … We find here at least a few indications which tend to show that the white race differs more from the higher apes than [does] the negro.
He notices how blacks look like apes (those alveolar arches and flat noses), but not how whites do (like thin lips and straight hair).
On the one hand Boas was Jewish and saw anti-Semitism and the racism against blacks as flowing from the same mindset. So he had personal reasons to doubt and disprove racism.
Yet he also clearly saw himself as white and shared certain white prejudices even while doubting others. He was still “of the times”, even if less so than most.
A good example are stereotypes about blacks: he believed most were true and yet he did not think such faults were inborn but created by American conditions (since blacks in West Africa did not share them).
He did not think race was a “social construct” – to him it was a fact of nature, something he studied a great deal as a scientist. Yet he thought that culture – meaning society and history for the most part – had a much greater effect on people than whatever physical differences there were between the races.
For example, according to the known facts of his time, blacks had smaller brains on average than whites. But the difference was too slight to account for the low position blacks had in society. After all, 80% of whites and blacks had brains of the same size.
While the difference in brain size could account for the low number of black doctors, professors and business leaders, it could not account for the low number of black skilled labourers.
A further sign that physical differences between races mattered little was West Africa, where most Black Americans came from. While most in America saw it as a place of savages, he knew about its art, its empires, its people and its level of civilization, which compared favourably with Europe of the Middle Ages.
If blacks in America had fallen from such heights, it was mainly the fault of whites, not of any fault in the genetics of black people.
See also:
Great post as always Abagond! I especially like the picture of the Benin Bronze plate. It definitively shows the level of skill and artistic intricacy that was produced by the Africans of Benin City. It’s important to note that many of these were taken by the British in their rampage of the African lands and many currently reside in the British Museum.
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Abagond,
You are right when saying that “he was still ‘of the times’, even if less so than most.” This raises an interesting question though. How much should we expect from White people regarding race relations? I think our expectations should not be too high before we consider someone possibly on our side or whishes us no ill will.
For me, I usually let racially insensitivity comments slide especially if the person has already demonstrated in actions that they don’t really have a thing against Blacks. It can be annoying but I don’t blow up their spot because I think if they knew they were being insensitive and why it was insensitive, they wouldn’t do it. That makes a difference at least to me.
In general I’ve found non PC Whites don’t take racial insensitivity very seriously (probably because they can’t relate to the pain associated with it) but I still don’t think that necessarily makes them a racist. I think there is a real difference in a racially insensitive, racially ignorant, and a flat our racist person. The first two I can work with and chalk up more to societal forces. The last one I think says more about that individual than anything else.
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Great post, Abagond. May I suggest that you write a post about the West African culture that Franz held in esteem? I believe this would help people to let go of their prejudice against blacks. It’s a sad truth that many people today still believe that blacks never really had any culture before whites came into contact with them, and therefore blacks aren’t that intelligent.
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@ Abagond
I wonder just how deeply Franz delved into various African cultures. Because I don’t remember him ever mentioning the level of advanced government various groups like the Edos, Yorubas, or even the Akan had.
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Yes interesting there are many such stories you can do to enlighten people Abagond and not those racists sagat, eurasiansensation or guy white, but you need to enlightenten people more with your blog please do some reseach Abagond and tell of those such as Gannible, or Anton Wilhelm Amo, or Adolf Badin. The are very note wothy
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also Abagond look at Ty Hobson-Powell, 15-Year-Old Graduates From The University of Baltimore, not simply from high school but from college.
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No disrepect intended but the ones who aren’t that intelligent are those who believe that Blacks didn’t really have a culture before the advent of Europeans. Even if there is no anthropological consensus as to just what constitutes “culture”, there certainly are basic elements that most laypersons would agree on: language, cuisine, celebration/holiday, costume, folk tales, customs, art, dance, et cetera. It is mostly those who are themselves imbeciles (no offense to the imbeciles) who believe that Africans spent their entire lives like wild animals – doing nothing more than survival instincts require –scavenging for food; excreting waste; sleeping; and fornicating. It’s amazing to me that having a supposedly superior intellect doesn’t prevent some whites (and others) from actually believing that their progenitors spent tens of thousands of years doing nothing more than sh*tting and f*cking…oh, and lest I forget, waging war with other shiftless Negroes on the continent….
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@ xxxphantomxxx:
not those racists sagat, eurasiansensation or guy white
Seriously, you are mentioning me in the same sentence as those two guys? Your weird obsession with me and my alleged racism (which no one else but you seems to be aware of) is getting out of hand.
If there is a particular thing I’ve said that you don’t like, then address that point wherever I’ve said it. Otherwise, shut the f*** up. Slandering me all over Abagond’s blog and mentioning me in posts that I’m not even involved in is an act of cowardice.
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@ Eurasian Sensation
Sagat: An “Other Asian” (his term) Immigrant Lapdog who assumed the role of “Asian Doormat to White Supremacy” in order to gain acceptance by white small-minded people, by achieveing “non-threatening minority” status, through his blog topics.
Guy White: Consistently incorrect (not to mention stupid) white racist that was tired of looking foolish by irrefutable and untwistable facts, that turned his already unintelligent blog into password (invite) only, in order to keep his “Circle Jerk of Stupidity” alive.
Eurasian Sensation: Err…huh?
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lol, what is xxxphantomxxx smoking?! I can’t make heads or tails out of his post…
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Phantom reminds me of those dudes that Aaron McGruder would call a Farraconvict. Otherwise known as a fanatic. Or more properly termed Black rage. Found primarily among the NOI, NBPP, and other hateful organizations who cannot cope with the destructive nature of living in a racist society and so consequently become DBR right quick.
That said, I don’t think phantom is a bad dude. Just confused. Meanwhile Eurasian hasn’t even harmed a fly in my estimation.
Back to Franz Boas. His student Kroeber, summed up his views of Boasian anthropology that made it a real science as such:
1. The method of science is to begin with questions, not with answers, least of all with value judgements.
2. Science is dispassionate inquiry and therefore cannot take over outright any ideologies “already formulated in everyday life,” since these are themselves inevitably traditional and normally tinged with emotional prejudice.
3. Sweeping all-or-none, black-and-white judgements are characteristic of categorical attitudes and have no place in science, whose very nature is inferential and judicious.
But with regards to scientific racism, a little known study of Boas’s done on immigrants in New York yielded perhaps the most interesting theories. Boas studied some 17,000+ immigrants, divided into ethno-national groups and measured their cranial capacity. By comparing these groups born in the US to immigrants, and to those who still lived in their home countries, Boas was able to prove conclusively through measurements that in each generation, environmental influences were changing the morphological/physiological/physical characteristics of these groups.
Summation? Race is not immutable.
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Tne bloggers likes this post.
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“I think there is a real difference in a racially insensitive, racially ignorant, and a flat our racist person. ”
That’s interesting, I see it in a similar way but I think of racism less in terms of how racist a particular person is, and more in terms of how racism effects people. I don’t know that it’s easy to know how much racism effects a particular persons thoughts or actions because whites tend to hide our racism even from ourselves. This is probably one reason POC insulate themselves from whites to a degree, because you can never really know how we really feel.
This is one reason I try to be straightforward about how I feel about certain topics on here even if my racism shows through, because even if I end up saying something offensive, at least it’s an opportunity for people to see how some WP actually think.
Even the most extremely racist WP will try to hide or justify their beliefs and won’t admit to their racism. “I’m not racist but damn I hate ni**ers!”
So I figure it’s more honest and beneficial for WP who want to be part of these discussions to just be open and not try to hide the extent to which racism has crept into us as individuals.
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“Seriously, you are mentioning me in the same sentence as those two guys? Your weird obsession with me and my alleged racism (which no one else but you seems to be aware of) is getting out of hand.”
I agree. It is unfair for any poster to have to constantly defend themselves against an ongoing campaign of empty accusations.
Continually repeating allegations, and refusing to provide any proof, is simply another form of AD HOMINEM, and should be treated as such.
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Zek J Evets
Just because a group doesn’t like white people doesn’t mean that they are a hate group. The NOI really is only concern with Black people and could care less about white people unless they are threatened by them. You would think the founder of the NOI was justified in his rage having seen lynchings before he was an adult.
The NWPP are wanabe revolutionaries and that so called incident here in Philadelphia was exaggerated by the right wing. They were legally there as poll workers and one guy wanted to look intimidating to any potential voter harassment. He only managed to look like a security guard in a small store.
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@ jas0nburns
Do white people hide their feelings from each other too or is it only toward non-whites? If they do, how do you know who to trust in your culture?
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The NOI regularly involves itself in anti-Semitic hate speech, and has been labeled a Hate Group by the SPLC. They state that White people are “potential humans”, and many of their members make wild accusations against Jews — like that we injected Black people with AIDS.
While many people like the NOI for their radical stance against White racism, they do not do much good by combating hatred with more hatred.
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I was speaking specifically about racism. Saying WP hide their feelings is an over generalization, but saying WP hide their feelings about racism is not.
I think that because racism is a seen as such a strong negative thing people don’t want to face the fact that they might have racist thoughts or feelings so they won’t admit it even to themselves. That’s what i was referring to.
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@ jas0nburns
I guess what I want to know is from a White person’s perspective, how should a POC who is truly trying to be objective determine a White friend or foe?
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@lookinforanswers: How to determine a White (:D) friend or a foe? Just like anybody. That is the whole point. There is no difference, really. There are cultural differences. I got along well with many american blacks way back when I was there, I did not get along with many white americans etc. I have no idea why those black guys were not so suspicious about me, being a white guy, Perhaps I was justa foreigner to them?
The thing is, in my point of view, that we have to bring down ALL the walls between all of us. There is no You and Them based on skin color. Culturally there are differences, not by color of our skins. I refuse to belive that and I refuse to accept that and I refuse to determine any humanbeing by his/hers skin color. Why? Because that is racism.
Peace!
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@ sam,
I think you are missing the point of my question. In the Black culture, among ourselves, it is fairly easy to determine friend or foe because we understand our own cultural queues which happen to be rather explicit. But if Whites tend to hide how they feel specifically from POC, I’m interested in knowing from a White person’s perspective the best way to determine if a White person is favorable toward me, not favorable toward me (perhaps because of my race) or is just indifferent.
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@Lookingforanswers
I think if a WP is really unfavorable to POC you’re probably going to know right away. based on that person’s behavior. But in general it isn’t so much that WP will be unfavorable or will be hostile, but they will probably always be a bit more suspicious of you than they would a WP. they will always assume you’re going to be better at basketball and dancing. And if you’re bigger they will always be a bit on guard. This will all be mostly subconscious to them but you will probably pick up on it. This doesn’t necessarily mean they won’t think you’re a great guy and really like you, it’s just that racism is part of american culture and we are raised to see things that way. WP usually are not aware of their own racism but it’s safe to assume it exists at least if they are American.
Growing up in America is like living in a pool that someone has peed in. if someone pees in the pool, everyone is going to have some pee on them whether they KNOW it or not.
But i think that a WP who really has race issues will give him/herself away really quick by making some lame comment sooner rather than later. I’ve been that guy myself so I know. It’s all about what you are willing to put up with when it comes to having white friends.
I assume 😉
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@ jas0nburns
Is there anything a POC can do to quickly make a White person less suspicious or beholden to stereotypes at the workplace, on interviews, at stores, etc?
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@Lookingforanswers
I have both conservative and liberal friends. I always say what I think and how I feel, but I do think my more conservative friends hide their true emotions. I’ve often told my friends that I really like the way black women look, and I can pretty much tell from beforehand, who are the ones who totally approve and who are the ones who stay silent.
None of my friends (nor my parents) have ever judged my choice of women. They are smart and compassionate enough to make my own mistakes.
I would never let anyone dictate how I should feel about a woman.
If I am favourable to a beautiful bw, I will smile at her and will stare at her for quite some time…long enough to find out if she feels the same and returns the favour…
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“Is there anything a POC can do to quickly make a White person less suspicious or beholden to stereotypes at the workplace, on interviews, at stores, etc?”
This reminds me of the book Whistling Vivaldi by Claude Steele
The book is about Stereotype threat but the title comes from a story of a black man who noticed that whites would avoid him on the sidewalk, cross the street etc. So he started whistling Vivaldi while he walked in order to signal to whites that he wasn’t a thug and that he was cultured. He noticed that when he did this whites relaxed in his presence.
So maybe something like that. I don’t know how effective it really is though.
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LookingForAnswers,
I would suspect ALL white people to be racist until proven otherwise, either to you. That doesn’t mean you can’t associate and/or be friendly with white people, but letting them get close could be a HUGE mistake.
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“but letting them get close could be a HUGE mistake.’
I’m a little confused by statements like this. Yes lots of WP are pretty racist, but how is that supposed to translate into some kind of danger? At worst your up against a racist joke. I mean, i’m white so I know I don’t get it but…that doesn’t seem like it’s the end of the world or anything. You actually have more to gain from getting close to (connected) WP than you have to lose. But that’s an outsiders perspective so…
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@ Jas0nburns
“but letting them get close could be a HUGE mistake.’
This kind of stuff is right out of a bad black exploitation movie. It is best said while wearing a black beret, dark glasses, and a Black Power T-shirt, whilst typing onto the internet with hand not being raised in a defiant fist. This is good thinking for social dinosaurs.
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Jasonburns said:
““but letting them get close could be a HUGE mistake.’
I’m a little confused by statements like this. Yes lots of WP are pretty racist, but how is that supposed to translate into some kind of danger? At worst your up against a racist joke. I mean, i’m white so I know I don’t get it but…that doesn’t seem like it’s the end of the world or anything. You actually have more to gain from getting close to (connected) WP than you have to lose. But that’s an outsiders perspective so…”
I can’t speak as a POC, but I can speak as somebody who has been female and letting males into my life as platonic friends.
If you’re close to somebody who has a privilege with somebody on you, it’s like they are armed with a weapon that they normally flail around and don’t think much of, most of the time they aren’t even aware of it. Unless they are very aware of their holding that weapon, and are actively interested in making sure you aren’t harmed by it (AT ALL TIMES, even when you’re at odds), it’s easier just to simply never put that much faith in them. It’s a lot of mental and emotional energy to navigate those minefields when the chips are down.
As soon as stuff gets patchy, you become just another crazy woman– or any other disadvantaged type of person, depending on the context. They will always have that on you, and there’s nothing you can do about it. It is a rare gem of a person who is so motivated in improving conditions for others in the most meaningful senses, I don’t blame non-white people for not giving many of us the benefit of a doubt.
You wouldn’t think the ‘right’ to comfortably make sexist/racist jokes or throwaway comments without being called a racist/sexist would be something people would cling to, but it often is… After so many times, I’ve all but given up on forming meaningful, personal platonic friendships with new men simply ’cause I hate being resigned to teaching lessons, or being somebody fun to “challenge” and “debate” with, or otherwise just having to tolerate the same stupid jokes over and over again. It’s just toxic for a person and it’s something straight cis white men of a certain class and able body just don’t have to deal with. Nobody should have to, which is why many choose just not to have that liability around.
Well, most of us have to have it around for some reason or another (work, relatives, living situations), but I 100% understand why somebody would opt out of it on the most personal meaningful levels given the choice.
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“As soon as stuff gets patchy, you become just another crazy woman– or any other disadvantaged type of person, depending on the context. ”
right but I guess my point was is that such a tough storm to whether givin the fact that keys open doors and WP have way more of those keys? i’m just trying to weigh the actual tangible detrimental effects of being around privileged people against the tangible advantages to POC. I’m not trying to minimize the detriment because I don’t have to experience it.
I mean WP are going to be racist regardless. Why not go get yours? The truth is if POC had better relationships with WP they would get hooked up with sh*t. I know there’s a special word for that among black Americans but it’s not 1864 and your not selling anybody out anymore. You can tell a WP that his joke was racist. You can be close to WP and still stand up for yourself these days. You on’t have to take any sh*t for being a woman or a POC so why self isolate?
Am I wrong here?
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@ jas0nburns
I’ve known Whites that have done things on my behalf and I have know some that have done nothing but try to keep me down. The problem is that it’s very difficult to tell which is which until after the fact because many pretend they have no problem with you but the behavior for some over time indicates something else. What I want to know is how can someone tell early on that a White person has a problem with them for whatever reason? When it comes to other Blacks, we can tell right away because we understand our own cultural queues. What are the cultural queues Whites rely on to understand each other?
Simply put how does jas0nburns know if another White person is a friend or enemy or worse yet a frienemy?
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I don’t even think about it. I’m stumped sorry. I give pretty much everybody the benefit of the doubt until they do me dirty.
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Jason: if you have no sites of oppression, you probably will not understand, and you have no reason not to give most people the benefit of a doubt. that’s privilege, dood.
White people don’t give cultural clues very often because we like to think of ourselves as Good People above everything else. I think it’s part just willful self-delusion. The teeth come out as soon as you call a person’s behavior into question and people can turn hard on you. Some don’t, but POC shouldn’t have to shoulder all of the emotional perils of those who do just for the sakes of the others.
I “don’t have to take any sh*t for being a woman” but I actually do, I do all the time. I shouldn’t HAVE to, but yes, I bite my tongue often and am learning the fine art of picking my battles. It isn’t worth your office hating on you for telling them that they shouldn’t say misogynist things casually when it happens every day, sometimes. It takes energy to fight those battles, and sometimes you just want to just do your job in peace. It’s easier to wear headphones than be the office b*tch, just as I assume it’s easier to just quietly distrust white folks instead of enduring some sort of race card accusations.
It’s also, to many people, just easier on the soul to be mistrustful and distant rather than actively having to engage in duplicitousness. Some can, and they’re fine for doing so, but what a drain, constantly just bending over so someone else can get their giggles at the expense of your humanity.
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@ jas0nburns
Can you then see what Derrick Witherspoon was driving at and the predicament Black people are in? Do you think Blacks (or anybody for that matter) can afford to give Whites pretty much the benefit of the doubt until they do us dirty (as you put it)? Even if (and especially because) White people hold all the keys, do you think that’s a reasonable approach for us given this country’s history and our position in society today?
White people in general (and not you in particular) never seem to be able to put things into historical context. They think Black people are paranoid when we say things that Derrick said but nobody seems able to even answer a simple question like how can a Black person know when to trust a White person.
I don’t like the idea of not trusting a whole culture because it does feel paranoid but it also seems crazy to simply give the benefit of the doubt to a culture that has a very poor history of mistreating others different from themselves. It’s like giving a million dollar mortgage to a person with a 520 credit score and a bad credit history. So that’s our choice as Black people, being paranoid or crazy.
This is the legacy of the White culture in this country that causes so much distrust in society but Whites don’t want to take responsibility for any it. They just choose to make comments in a vacuum as if this country started yesterday.
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It’s not such a simple question really. I guess another thing is that I personally try not to put myself into situations where someone is in a position to take advantage of me. There is really no need for it. Im trying to think of a situation where I would be vulnerable in the way you seem to think you might be vulnerable. What exactly do you imagine that a WP wants to do to you and why?
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Jason, my initial response is yet to be posted (I must have tripped a bad word, sorry for the inconvenience), but your recent comment is pretty condescending. It’s not like POC who don’t trust white people have never actually thought about the consequences or why they do what they do.
It’s that anytime, a white person can show their true colors, even after long periods of camaraderie. And often they do.
It’s the microaggressions that can occur that are indicative of a lack of empathy. It’s the jokes and the “jokes.” It’s being generally mistreated, and then it’s not being taken seriously when you discuss being mistreated. It’s that the people you need to see you favorably (bosses, landlords, lawmakers, business-owners, or even just perfect strangers) failing to see themselves in you and extend to you the benefit of a doubt that many are privileged to get. It’s accumulative, and pervasive. It’s coming home at the end of the day and sighing that you wouldn’t have to notice or care about any of those microaggressions if you weren’t the type of human being you are.
Not to mention the macroaggressions that still occur… but I assume you’re talkin’ about average mundane situations.
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@ jas0nburns
“It’s not such a simple question really.”
But see, it is. Whites in general just don’t like the answer, which is practicing deceit when dealing with POC is culturally acceptable for them and is often the default.
“What exactly do you imagine that a WP wants to do to you and why?”
EVERYONE knows qualified Blacks are largely shut out of good middle class jobs and good promotions because those jobs and promotions are usually reserved for people recommended by Whites who are almost always White or for people in certain inner-circles that Blacks are rarely part of because Whites actively practice isolating themselves from us. But they want us to believe that this country is a meritocracy when it’s really just one big good ol’ boys club. It’s hard to legally prove something like job discrimination but anybody can connect the dots and see what’s often going on.
Even if an individual White person doesn’t feel that way, they tolerate intolerance in other Whites. You can’t tell me how to know when to trust another White person because you know culturally and historically POC can’t. Can a POC trust individual Whites during casual interactions? Sure. But can you trust a White person to side with you if it means rocking the boat with other Whites, probably not.
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“They think Black people are paranoid when we say things that Derrick said but nobody seems able to even answer a simple question like how can a Black person know when to trust a White person.”
Because really what are you worried about? Trust a white person to do what exactly? Hold your baby? Not cheat you at poker? Not rob your house? I mean there isn’t all that much we can really get away with any more even if a WP really wanted to “get you”
You could go over to” stuff white people do” and read through countless examples of white racism. All you are going to find are examples rude insensitive remarks and ignorant comments. I could understand not wanting to hang out with people who are constantly making rude insensitive remarks but again if a person does that there is no special trick to figuring out they couldn’t be trusted. And if it takes 6 months for said WP to make a racist comment than you should know them well enough and like them well enough by then to just be like “not cool” and get a swift and sincere apology.
You might be giving us to much credit when it comes to hiding our true feelings.
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@ EvaEvaEva
I could have saved myself the trouble of writing my response if I would have saw yours first. I do think jas0nburns is one of the good guys though.
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@ jas0nburns
My comments in moderation will explain when it’s posted.
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@ Eva
“t’s not like POC who don’t trust white people have never actually thought about the consequences or why they do what they do.”
it was a genuine question. I really don’t understand the consequences or the motivation. I’m not saying POC don’t i’m saying I don’t. no sarcasm.
Your recent comment helps and I’ve heard comments like that before and I believe you. So you’re saying that by avoiding whites you’re better off because you don’t have to deal with as many microaggressions. And dealing with the microaggressions is worse than any benefits that might come from having lots of white friends.
If that’s the case ok I believe you.
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” I do think jas0nburns is one of the good guys though.’
aha that’s what i WANT you to think muahahahaha
jk
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@ jas0nburns
My comment cleared. You can see my explanation above.
After you read it, I want to add one other thing. Whites say that their intent is not to discriminate when they hire a referral instead of seriously interviewing applicants but that’s the insidiousness of the White culture because they purposely live in such a way that can only lead to recommending other Whites. Simply put: Whites isolating themselves from Blacks + looking to hire referrals first = job discrimination based on race. But doing it that way grants deniability and self-delusionment that this country is a meritocracy when it’s really not. It makes it easier to say “look at those Blacks. They don’t want to succeed!” but you can’t really fault someone for not wanting to play a game they know is rigged can you?
You wrote: “there isn’t all that much we can really get away with anymore”
Can you understand now how untrue that is?
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@ LookingForAnswers and EvaEvaEva:
Doesn’t this become a self-fulfilling prophecy?
I’m not from the US, but it seems to me that if you carry around an attitude that white people are inherently worthy of suspicion, then isn’t it more likely that you will be hypersensitive to any slight, real or perceived? If you have the mindset that racism and racists are everywhere and all-pervasive, you are more likely to see racism and antagonism even when it’s not there.
If blacks can’t bring themselves to trust whites, then how can they progress in a white-dominated society if they convey an attitude that they don’t trust whites? Obviously it’s possible to be professional without getting overly chummy with white people, but being able to connect on a personal level with colleagues is often an essential aspect of being successful in one’s career.
The “don’t trust whitey” approach may have a sound basis in past history, but it would appear to be a barrier to progress in the future.
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“Jason: if you have no sites of oppression, you probably will not understand, and you have no reason not to give most people the benefit of a doubt. that’s privilege, dood.”
I understand that. The question was literally “how does jas0nburns do x” So I just answered that question honestly. I didn’t assume it would apply to anyone else. I didn’t say that what works for me would work for anyone else.
Interesting comment nonetheless.
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So exclusion. Something whites can do to harm blacks is to deny access to resources. So your saying that you shouldn’t trust WP because they might do this to you at some point? We’re going to do this either way on a broad scale. We’re already doing it. You right now as a black man are being excluded by systematic racism whether you trust WP or not. so what good is it doing you in that regard to avoid and not trust WP. absolutely none. Your better of taking your chances and giving certain WP that seem like good people the benefit of the doubt because you have nothing to lose. Everything that was ever going to be taken away from you was already taken the moment you were born into a racist society.
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@ Eurasian Sensation
“if you carry around an attitude that white people are inherently worthy of suspicion, then isn’t it more likely that you will be hypersensitive to any slight, real or perceived? If you have the mindset that racism and racists are everywhere and all-pervasive, you are more likely to see racism and antagonism even when it’s not there.”
Of course. Which is why the only middle ground is to play Russian roulette. You play the game knowing that you can get hurt at anytime because when push comes to shove, it’s socially and culturally acceptable for Whites to mistreat us or deny us opportunity. How many Black people work hard to not see race in everything just to be the first ones laid off? It’s not about carrying around an attitude. It’s about being aware of your circumstances and keeping it in the back of your head. White people as individuals are not inherently worthy of suspicion. It’s White American culture’s treatment toward Blacks that is.
“Obviously it’s possible to be professional without getting overly chummy with white people, but being able to connect on a personal level with colleagues is often an essential aspect of being successful in one’s career.”
You are missing the point. THEY do everything possible to isolate themselves FROM US which makes it impossible to connect on a personal level so it becomes easy to mistreat us. You think they don’t ask us over to the house because they think we’ll say no?
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@ jas0nburns
What I’m saying is that it’s hard to separate the issues. When Blacks see an entire culture actively keeping them locked out and then on an individual level deny that its happening, it’s hard to trust, that’s all. How many White people you know (other than yourself) acknowledge these things are happening? They think we are delusional. Can you trust someone who thinks your delusional? Can a Jew trust a German that denies the holocaust ever happened? There are some White people I trust but only to a point if they deny the undeniable or defend the indefensible.
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“Yes lots of WP are pretty racist, but how is that supposed to translate into some kind of danger? At worst your up against a racist joke.”
I’m sure James Byrd (who trusted his acquaintances enough to “hitch a ride” home with them) would have preferred a racist joke to being beaten, urinated on, and, to top it all off, dragged to death behind a truck.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_James_Byrd,_Jr.
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@all: My personal take on all this is that I refuse to see black or whites. I see individuals. The moment we, any of us, beging to talk about Them and Us, racism is breathing. As long as any of us, you, me and everybody here, look at each other and say “White people are blablabla” or “Blacks are blablabla”, we uphold the basic element of the racism we all claim to fight against.
Yes, there are cultural differences between people around the world, but american black has more common things with a white finn than with a guy from Mozambique, regardless of romantic ideas.
What I want to do, how I want to live, is to meet and treat people as individuals. Not a single black guy is Blacks to me. Nor is a single white guy Whites to me. I simply refuse to think like that. This black guy is my friend and this other is not. Fine. I’m not friends with all the whites either.
I have friends from different ethnic groups, different religions, from jews to muslims, from arabs to russians, from africans to americans, englihsmen and so on. I refuse to cathegorise them by the color of their skin. To me they are themselves, black or white or what ever.
I know it is difficult but I think it is the only way out. As long as the blacks in US are suspicious of whites and vise versa everything remains the same. Lucky for us, there are some craks in this race barrier. And we have to remember that in american culture there is an element of fear present in all relationships. It is in the very core of american social culture: call it a sige mentality. “Any outsider is not a new friend but a potential threat. Somewhere out there is someone who is going to hurt me”.
Lookingforanswers, that seems to be the core of your thinking too. Suspicion, fear, negative thoughts which feed the racism on both sides.
I placed myself in the potential dangers many times when I was younger and found out that in most cases the rumours and stories are not true. Only one american black guy ever wanted to beat me up and just because I was white. That is racism, right? In Africa I once spent full night among pitch black criminals whom everyone said were going to kill any white man they could get their hands on. They did not. Instead we had a hell of a time: they had a very dark and riotous humor which suited to me well. And mind you, they were stoned out of their minds and drunk and had more guns on them than american SWAT Team.
So I learned that not all blacks are what they are supposed to be at any given time. I also learned that not any ethnic group is what they are supposed to be. It is all about individuals.
I know there are racist whites. But there are racist blacks too. We must try to finish this curse and my way is to look at you all as individual humanbeings. No matter what your skin color is. I simply refuse to look at you any other way. It is not easy, but that is what I do.
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Jason: Rest assured that people of color have plenty to lose, still. And frankly, they shouldn’t have to placate us white people constantly, but they have to, professionally. Who wants to use their personal energy like that? White men do not have to to nearly the same extent.
I’m going to reiterate that I can’t speak for POC, just for my experience as a woman (my hope is that in trying to engage in this, a POC won’t have to waste their energy, instead, and as a WP I see it as my fair duty to help other WP get a grip on their privileges). It drains me enough to placate men and tolerate blatant misogynist language and behavior, or to educate them, or to be a sounding board. In my personal time I am highly, highly selective and tend not to extend the benefit of a doubt to men I haven’t known for years and years (well enough to have trained them as I trained myself to deal with a sexist world). It’s probably a far cry from what POC experience, so my understanding is limited.
My thinking is, though, that what you’re saying is sort of implying that POC just haven’t thought of simply expending all of their emotional energies to get some of that sweet White People Pie. There’s no reason for them to work extra hard in a way white men do not have to, and sacrifice their innermost energies for that– or for you to have that benefit of a doubt you seem to really want.
And, actually, the black people to whom I’ve been closest actually don’t exhibit this, now that I think about… they usually extend a lot of benefit of a doubt to white people, and have many white friends, usually due to their upbringing in whiter neighborhoods. I can’t speak of their inner workings, but they gave me a benefit of a doubt (as far as I was able to infer) and as do many POC. For some it may be easier than others. I don’t want to paint all POC with the same brush. I just completely respect and understand them not trusting white people. That’s their right, and they’re doing what makes sense to them based on their lifetimes of experiences navigating that system. The fact that our system does not actually provide equal opportunities that is the problem and the true source of said “self-fulfilling prophecy”, not their mistrust. It is kind of absurd to put that onus on them.
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@ EvaEvaEva:
A very insightful post. I couldn’t have said it better myself.
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@ EvaEvaEva
“The fact that our system does not actually provide equal opportunities that is the problem and the true source of said “self-fulfilling prophecy”, not their mistrust.”
Bingo! Jackpot! Lotto! Jenga!
This is the key and source of so many problems in this country past, present and future. It may be more common in some areas than others but inequity based on race exists in ALL areas of life in this country and POC are almost always on the short end of the stick.
Until a White person understands this, he or she can never understand why there are so many problems in this country. But again, they are taught a lie from early on that this country is a meritocracy so everything is viewed in that light. If a POC doesn’t succeed it’s because he or she didn’t try hard enough not because he or she didn’t have the same opportunities as someone else who did succeed.
What they don’t realize is that they are ultimately sacrificing the future of their own children because in a few years you will have a country where the majority is POC who haven’t had the opportunities that past generations had to grow or succeed and the country will be unprepared to complete with the rest of the world. All because of a lack of equal opportunities for POC. It appears that this country’s original sin will be its own undoing.
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@ EvaEvaEva
“as a WP I see it as my fair duty to help other WP get a grip on their privileges”
Why can’t more White people feel this way?
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“My thinking is, though, that what you’re saying is sort of implying that POC just haven’t thought of simply expending all of their emotional energies to get some of that sweet White People Pie. There’s no reason for them to work extra hard in a way white men do not have to, and sacrifice their innermost energies for that– or for you to have that benefit of a doubt you seem to really want.”
Look, I’m aware that i’m out of line here. I’m aware that I’m privileged. I’m aware that I’m suggesting a course of action that I myself will never have to take. My thinking was that my own privilege was unimportant to a discussion about how POC might advance their careers in a workplace dominated by whites. I assumed that everyone was aware of my privilege including myself and so we wouldn’t really see a need to talk about that. Apparently that’s not the case. Apparently we must always recenter the discussion on how privileged WP are, as if that’s going to solve anything.
The reason i’m typing here is because someone was asking me about my insights into whiteness as a WP. I assumed that I should try to answer and give my views dispite my privilege because I was asked to do so. If i’m wrong so what? maybe I can offer an insight or 2 into how WP think. maybe not. whatever.
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At the end of the day though, even if every WP on earth admitted to their privilege and tried really supper hard not to let it show, would POC be tangibly better of? and is that likely to happen anyway?
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@ jas0nburns
No but what Whites in this country can do is embrace policies to dismantle the uneven playing field but many would rather label it wealth redistribution, socialism, class warfare or reverse racism. They are totaling missing the point.
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yeah I know, I guess I just don’t see the point in going on and on about what WP should be doing. I mean it’s all true it’s just so much wishful thinking.
What is the point in talking about what WP “could do”? How does that help you? Do you think that the simplest, easiest, and most likely path to your own success in life is WP changing our ways? I don’t. So why bother with it?
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@ jas0nburns
No I don’t think that’s the path to success. I think the key is to understanding how Whites really think which is what makes people like you so valuable in conversations like this and why I asked you those questions.
I think everything got derailed when ‘King’ made the comment about it ‘being right out of a bad black exploitation movie’ followed by ‘Eurasian Sensation’s suggestion that it was a self-fulfilling prophecy. I think you just got caught in the middle of a food fight.
I do believe though people see the value in your responses so they try to make you even more conscious of how we see things so that you can be more introspective (for our sake) when telling us how White people think. You shouldn’t always need a disclaimer though. We know where you are coming from.
@ Abagond
Can we just declare on this blog all the White posters that we know acknowledge White privilege so that they can talk freely without a constant need of said acknowledgement (sort of like a ‘friend to the blog’ list)?
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@leigh204, @lookingforanswers:
Thank you very much for your kind words, but I’m doing anything special. So many writers and bloggers and speakers of color have better articulated all these ideas on privilege…If it were up to me it’d just be expected to have that attitude.
@jas0nburns:
That insight seems to be “I don’t get it!”
I do know that you’re trying, I mean, I’ve been reading your comments on here and a few other blogs for a long time. I do know you try. You just might be overestimating the value of your input in this case when it basically consists of “why don’t POC just do X?” POC can figure out their own solutions and like everyone are very invested in living well and succeeding.
OUR end of the bargain is what you should be concerned about. What we should be doing is to listen, to educate ourselves and one another, to vote in a pro-POC pro-true-equality manner, to boycott racist media and products, to normalize among whites expectations for absolute equality, to treat POC with the dignity and respect they deserve in our everyday lives– and we figure out exactly what that means through aforementioned education. I’m actually having your back by telling you all this (even if you’ve heard it before), Like one who would inform another of his fly being unzipped. I know you’re trying, but just because you’ve heard it before doesn’t mean it’s not down again.
“Why bother with it” is just callous and self-pitying. You bother with it because it is the right thing to do. Now zip up your fly, we can do this.
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Woops, I’m sorry. In that above post I meant to say I’m NOT doing anything special!
But I wholeheartedly appreciate your kindness.
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@Eva
Point taken. On the other hand though, nobody answered my question. (you don’t count) I’m guessing it’s not because my fly is down.
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@ jas0nburns
Which question?
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Well as Eva paraphrased it went something like
“why don’t POC do x?” x being form more personal relationships with WP, because WP hold most of the keys to recourses. lookingforanswers did kind of answer me, but he seems to think that’s a decent plan at least for himself. It was actually his questions that made me wonder why more POC don’t go that route. Its not that I want POC to just think “hey were not that bad” to make myself feel better about whites. It just seems like that route would be beneficial to POC and I wanted to know if it was just that it’s to much of a pain? Or maybe many POC just don’t feel comfortable enough around whites to actually pull it off. I’m sure there is a good reason either way. I’m not trying to insult anyone’s intelligence here.
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@ jas0nburns
When Blacks try making friends with Whites, they are not very interested in allowing us in their personal circle. They will be professional at work but often won’t go further than that. They only want to deal with you when they have to. It’s like trying to make friends with someone trying to avoid you. After a while you feel like a dork so you just stop trying.
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@jas0nburns
evaevaeva answered your question in 2 of her comments. And 2 PoC cosigned her (3 counting me). You saying that you don’t accept her explanation is your choice, but it’s dishonest to say that your question wasn’t answered when the truth is that you reject the answer.
I point this out because it’s one of the millions of reasons why these conversations fail–people dismissing legitimate points.
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Whites are people too. How can you know to trust anyone? Short of being a mind reader and a soothsayer you cannot.
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Zek Evets dont talk to me son just don’t.
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Nice article!
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