A guest post by Greg Dragon of the Hall of the Black Dragon:
There’s a great wish in the African American community for a wonderful utopia known as UNITY. The word brings about images of 70′s era movies where everyone picks their blow-out Afros, slaps high-fives and echoes “Right on!” in unison. This reality was lived out by our parents but now the word has become pure fantasy. A fellow AA writer and myself discussed this unity thing and came up with 7 layers of division that keeps black unity a myth. This list may not be exclusive to blacks but it plagues us and keeps us separated in a major way.
The 7 Layers of Division in Black America:
Layer 1 – Bourgie vs. Ghetto
Middle/upper class vs. lower class for those confused by the derogatory terms. These two classes of people don’t necessarily hate one another but cannot coexist due to different outlooks and prejudice towards one another. So how would you go about unifying them?
Layer 2 – American vs. Immigrant
African Americans’ “us versus them” mentality, the effort to stay “the most screwed over minority” and the immigrants who segregate themselves so as not to be confused with native-born blacks is an old and hard issue that will not go away easily.
Layer 3 – Church vs. Cynics
Many of us grew up in the black church only to leave and become cynical. I won’t get into the reasoning for this (there’s a full article on it for those who need clarification). The cynics will never agree with those who quote scripture because they do not respect their stance on anything.
Layer 4 – Racially Scarred vs. Racially Ambiguous
When you grew up being called a nigger and being denied based on your color it is a different world than growing up where everyone is cordial and the “n-word” is something you hear about versus actually hearing it. One says “Don’t trust them” and the other says “Get over it!” Each thinks the other is hopeless.
Layer 5 – Light vs. Dark
Every culture of color has had this issue it seems. The light is right attitude of our ancestors has left a nasty and bitter taste in some of our mouths but sadly many black people still follow it.
Layer 6 – Huey vs. Uncle Ruckus
Uncle Ruckus hates his blackness and hates everything to do with it. Huey loves the skin he’s in and cannot fathom how a black man could hate himself. Like their namesakes from Aaron McGruder’s “Boondocks” there are many who cannot see eye to eye when it comes to blackness.
Layer 7 – Men vs. Women
Many of us are in great relationships with black men/women but sadly enough, we don’t talk about that them as much as we talk about the jerks (guilty) from our past. Men are stereotyped as uneducated jailbirds and women as bitchy co-eds, the Cosby dynamic being laughably inaccurate.
So will black people ever “unify” and appear as together as our fellow minorities? I don’t think so and after seeing the 7 layers that we would have to overcome, you can understand why.
Abagond 
So will black people ever “unify” and appear as together as our fellow minorities?
Anyone who has friends from the another minority group knows that they ALL have just as many layers and divisions as we do. In fact, many other minorities urge each other the be “as UNIFIED as Blacks are.”
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@King
King, you are SO Right! Other groups do see Blacks as being more unified than they are.
But getting back to Abagond’s question–I think that we–Blacks–hold ourselves to unrealistic standards. I was a very observant little kid during the 70s, and trust me, the adults weren’t as “United” as sentimentality would have it. But because this was the universally accepted ideal being strived for, we came a lot closer to “Unity” then than we have since the Me-Decade of the 80s.
The Bougie-Ghetto and skin-color stuff was going on prior, during and after the 70s. Although, I must admit I really never got those particular issues. Where I’m from, up until the 60s, all the Blacks were segregated to one part of town, so the professionals/rich and the working-class/poor all lived together. And did so without downing each other, actually encouraging each other. I know that there were places like DC where the professional/rich Blacks actually lived in an area apart from the rest, but I didn’t learn about that until I was an adult.
Even when we left the city I was born in and moved to the suburbs in the 70’s, we never stopped visiting our friends and relatives in the city. And our friends and relatives in the city came out to see us in the burbs. And that continues to this day.
And the skin color thing–my family on both sides (maternal and paternal) have everything from the lightest light to the darkest dark and everything in between. And it’s never been an issue.
Now, in my adulthood, I’ve met people who suffered serious abuse because they were considered too light or too dark by members of their own families. And the too light thing is not a typo. I know a woman who is the only light-skinned person in her family and she suffered emotional and physical abuse that she’s never gotten over.
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And the Immigrant/Black American thing…
That, to me, is the toughest one to crack. A lot of humans want to feel they are superior to someone, and too many folks from the Diaspora feel they are superior to US Blacks.
I’ve had many Jamaicans and Guyanese, because of my intelligence, work ethic and appearance, tell me that I must be of their ancestry. And they mean it as a compliment. As though being just a plain-old US Black person isn’t enough.
But then again, my Nigerian friends go on and on about how they prefer Black Americans to people of Nigerian descent who were born/grew up in the UK.
Just a human thing…
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[…] Comments RSS […]
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This is a damn good guest post.
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a good post again and a nice picture. My father was at the Mexico olympics -68 and witnessed the fists of Tommy Smith and John Carlos on the podium. He told me that some american journalists were crying for it, that is really crying with tears and all. For what reason, I do not know.
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@Trublu112: Thanks so much for your insight, especially as a person older than myself who has lived in different times, your comment is more valuable than you think. I have seen the light-skinned dissing first hand and I know that a lot of it is revenge by darker adults… just look for all the LSLH topics within the blogosphere.
One thing I must say about writing something like this is that it’s expected to be picked apart. None of us have all the answers and none of us know it all. But people cannot sit there and honestly say that they believe that as a people we are unified any more than any other minority. Let’s be real with ourselves for just one moment and drop the mask that we present to the world. Just because outsiders look in and say “hey you guys are unified, look at reverend whatshisname, and you guys head nod when you walk by each other and then there was Martin and blah, blah, blah” does not mean that in reality we are close. I know that I don’t feel unified and I have done all of the little steps taken to be a good leader in my community (hbcu, nation, charity, writing) – you would think by now I wouldn’t have this opinion.
It’s a topic that we really should discuss and see if there are answers to some of them. Light vs. Dark is strong in the same ghetto areas that many of us don’t frequent, just ask a little dark skinned girl who attends public school how unified she feels… especially when you turn on the radio and hear rappers saying that dark skinned women would “look better red”. I just left a “black blog” where there’s an American vs Immigrant word war going on right now… there’s proof of all these things. All it takes is a second to remove the rose tinted shades and pay attention.
Thank you all for reading, and big thanks to Abagond for allowing me to share.
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Layer 1
Haha team Bougie right here :). Tho I would say its more of a mindset than class. I’m broke right now, but I am the furthest person from ghetto. I’m young and still at the age where I depend on my parents, so I more than likely won’t be poor for long!
Layer 2
Born in raised the USA, but I still hang on to my parent’s immigrant status. I’ve nv identified with the term African American. That term suits the descendants of US slavery who have their own unique (sub)cultures from centuries of ancestors living in the US. Afro-Caribbean American, West Indian, Jamerican are more appropriate terms for me. However, I feel there is no tension btwn AAs & I, so I wouldnt call it a division.
Layer 3 🙂
Layer 4
If we are not counting the internet, racially ambiguous. All the whites I have come cross are either cool race-wise or have mastered political correctness! Some ignorant/mildly prejudiced statements sometimes, but nothing too bad.
Layer 5
Ugh so dumb. I’m on the outside of the ring waiting for this battle to end. I know my skin tone, but I don’t identify with a color. Someone’s color is about as significant as the color of their eyes. Well outside of physical attraction at least…
Layer 6
I’m Huey, tho ya boy can be a little to radical. I love myself, but my race is not my main identity.
Layer 7
Having trouble understanding this one. Is their a typo in their? I guess imma a man…
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@Greg Dragon
You’re welcome.
The point I was trying to make as far as Unity is concerned is that it is a great ideal that we should strive for, but we must also understand that we are human. And the most insecure humans seem to feel the need to uplift themselves by putting others down. Is it logical–not at all. But it’s the way it is.
Hopefully, the little dark-complexioned girl has someone in her life that she loves to tell her that the BS she hears from the rap song or even other kids is exactly that–BS.
And particularly for kids, it can even be hard to believe those who love you when your peers are making fun of you (the teasing I got when I was young was: my lips were too big and I talked white). But, ultimately, I come from a family of bad-asses who don’t care what other negative people think, and encouraged us all to be ourselves and love ourselves. So those attitudes ultimately won out over any peer-inspired insecurities.
So, no rose-colored glasses here. But, Blacks aren’t super Human-we will always have divisions because some people just thrive on it. We do need to work on negative attitudes about ourselves, particularly considering how it affects our young. But we really aren’t any more divided internally than any other group.
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You forgot to.mention that their are a LOT of in-betweeners when it comes to the bougie vs ghetto layer. I would say most Black Americans fall into the middle
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Whoa. You said it a lot better than I would’ve said it Abagond. Great job.
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I think it’s so interesting that most of what is believed to be true of black americans is in the imagination of the beholder. When it comes to this perceived cohesion or unification I think this is especially true. To whites (and others apparently) it seems like blacks belong to a monolithic culture. However, it appears to me that the main thing BA have in common is the ability to perceive one another as people first and foremost. Whereas everyone else just sees their blackness and doesn’t get a whole lot further. Just a theory.
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Should of added homosexuality vs. straight. I don’t believe in any form pan-unity based on color. I went to an afro centric school where they spoke but black history (AA of western descent) and still found ways to put down people. The most popular girl look like a horse, but was “pretty” because she was light-skinned & “long” hair( Not really, it was barely to her shoulders, how people consider that long, I’ll never know) People are petty. I think putting a narrow meaning of blackness and unity is pointless and destructive. It destroys the individuality. I think it causes self-hatred more than anything.
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Numbers 1, 4 and 6, to me, can also be similar to black liberals vs. black conservatives to an extent, or rather the field negro vs. the house negro context.
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Usagi,
I agree to an extent. Black people are not a monolith; we are individuals ourselves even though society judges us collectively. However, I think black unity is possible even if we acknowledge and respect our own differences and agree to disagree. I don’t think it’s about being alike and agreeing on everything per sae, but knowing we are all in the same boat in a white racist society. At least, that’s what I think.
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Today I had to explain to my 8 and 10 year old sons the origin of “the blacker the berry” while schooling them on Tupac. This turned into a conversation about the dilemma of light vs dark in our communities, in all communities as you have pointed out. Sadly, thirty years ago, I had a similar conversation with my father; thirty years from now I can only pray my sons will not have to engage their children this way.
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“However, I think black unity is possible even if we acknowledge and respect our own differences and agree to disagree.”
When Blacks have been united in the past, it was usually forced upon us by White oppression. OF COURSE you’re going to be united if you’re under attack. We are still under attack, to some degree, but the attack has weakened considerably from what it once was. Bottom line, the more successful we become in repelling the attack, the less “unity” we’re going to see.
Black people will have the luxury of individuality, without having to assume the defensive posture of the united front. And that will be a good thing.
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I seriously don’t get the light skin vs. Dark skin thing. I remember from k-12 hearing ppl get on darker blks for their color. I didn’t get. I kept thinking, “if a white person said the SAME exact thing that came out your mouth u wud say they were racist, but since this is intra-racial you think it’s ok.”
Why would you look down on someone your own race for their skin color? Why some ppl can’t accept skin color preference when it comes to attraction doesnt akways equal white supremacy/self-hatred or Afro-centrism? I think half the reason colorism plagues us is bc ppl mistake innocent attraction with supremacy; often out of jealousy or political correctness.
All these blk ppl online talking about how bad colorism is must be unicorns. Growing I was always one of the FEW not laughing when dark folks were being tormented…
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@Cynic-
I think a lot of that also has to do with geographic location. I’m from the South, I get it.
You’re talking about reversing hundreds of years of teaching; not to beat a dead horse (horse=slavery) but for so long we were taught that light is right (ie. house slaves vs. field slaves). That teaching breeds hostility and division and in turn darker skinned Blacks rebel and oppress lighter skinned Blacks when given the opportunity. I don’t think it’s looking down on the opposite shade but like you said, it’s a form of self-hatred.
I didn’t taunt others for their increased melanin nor did I respond when I was teased for my ‘white’ complexion; sometimes silence implies approval.
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:I agree to an extent. Black people are not a monolith; we are individuals ourselves even though society judges us collectively. However, I think black unity is possible even if we acknowledge and respect our own differences and agree to disagree. I don’t think it’s about being alike and agreeing on everything per sae, but knowing we are all in the same boat in a white racist society. At least, that’s what I think.”
I disagree. Rashida Jones, Barack Obama, and Alec Wek are going to have different views on society. Me and a AA women with strong west african features are going to see things differently.
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@palmerbennett
I think I agree w/ what you say about indoctrination. These kids were tormenting darker folks as early as elementary school. The only place I think they can learn this is from the home. Skin color was nv brought up in my HH, so maybe that is why I didn’t adopt this attitude. It’s either apart of the cultural legacy from slavery or kids attacking whatever they feel is different(it was often the <really, really dark folks being teased by everybody else<<High yellows, caramels, & chocolates).
I think the ignorant attitudes about dark skin is a serious issue.
Note:I am talking about those who verbally abuse dark skin ppl, not physical attraction. Maybe I'm biased bc I am not a female, but I think the latter is a non-issue.
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“the immigrants who segregate themselves so as not to be confused with native-born blacks”
What do you mean by this? Are you talking physical segregation? If that’s the case, I am not aware of my family or any other immigrants ever doing this for the purpose of separating themselves from AAs. They only hung out with other J’cans bc they were recent immigrants that shared a common culture.
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“When Blacks have been united in the past, it was usually forced upon us by White oppression. OF COURSE you’re going to be united if you’re under attack. We are still under attack, to some degree, but the attack has weakened considerably from what it once was. Bottom line, the more successful we become in repelling the attack, the less “unity” we’re going to see.”
Of course. It has happened a few times in history, and if it gets to the point where white oppression becomes more severe and obvious, then yes, it will again.
“I disagree. Rashida Jones, Barack Obama, and Alec Wek are going to have different views on society. Me and a AA women with strong west african features are going to see things differently.”
Of course. I don’t disagree with that. In fact I mentioned it. What I was saying is that some people think black unity is about thinking and agreeing together into a sort of hive mind. It can’t be done, but it is possible to unite under a common goal if the people choose to do so, and usually it happens, like King said, if they come under attack.
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“Of course. It has happened a few times in history, and if it gets to the point where white oppression becomes more severe and obvious, then yes, it will again.”
Yes I agree. Strict UNITY is most often a sign that a population feels threatened or pressured. In other words, often you will only find unity when there is little freedom and safety to be had. That is why unity is not as preferable as many people believe.
When you are safe and you are free, you are more prone to choose your own paths, whether it fits within the expectations of “the group” or not.
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i’m fortunate in the sense that i can get on with “bougie” and “ghetto” i grew up in the jack and jill type enviorment, but I’m just as comfortable around my non-jack and jillers…meaning ghetto acting …and when i say ghetto i mean that in a loving way… i love my brothers/sisters in the ghetto…at the end of the day we’re all black and whether or not peopel want to admit it to MOST non-black people we ALL look the same…when they see the ghetto black, they see the bougie black…they us as one in the same…they look at us and see n*gger one way or another…
in terms of immigrant vs. non-immigrant…blacks gotta learn to work together…i’m gradually getting to know my african/caribbean brothers/sisters. I had a very wonderful/meaningful conversation with my senegalese friends about nollywood/african movies and had a really deep and meaningful convo with my nigerian friend at work about black history/my desire to learn more about africa and where i came from. he was really helpful and shared things about his yoruba culture in nigeria and it meant a lot to me. I am finding more and more that blacks have a lot in common, we’ve all been oppressed BECAUSE we’re black across the world…nigerians had colonialism, so did senegalese…caribbeans had slavery and black americans had slavery…we got more in common than we think…
p.s.
the only time blacks all get along is when we’re slaves…and we’re forced to get along.
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and i also learned during ww2 west africans helped build ships and other things and we’re promised payment for their labor and never got it….side note
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I don’t like ghetto people at all. And when I say ghetto I am talking about a mentality and not location/wealth…
Growing up in a quasi-suburb in metro-Atlanta, I came across too many black people who still couldn’t let go of that hood mentality. This is something else I truly couldn’t understand. We may not live in an upscale suburb, but this is no rundown hood. Just a regular neighborhood when it comes to infrastructure & amenities, yet we still have ppl who want to embrace the bottom. I blame hip-hop and one parent HH family structures.
In my area there was a bougie minority, a bigger hood minority, and then a large class of in-betweeners who made up the majority.
@Peanut
“and when i say ghetto i mean that in a loving way”
What is your definition of ghetto? I ask this bc my def. is filled with negative adjectives. If your understanding of the word is similar to mine, I am curious as to why you would co-sign the BS ghetto folks think & do? I don’t care if they look like me. Don’t you see the self-inflicting wounds they bring upon the black community? Do you honestly believe it is in our interest to sanction their sub-culture?
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@The Cynic
There’s your problem right there, the Cynic: associating your negative “ghetto people” image with Black people.
How old are you anyway? I’m not really looking for your exact age, but I believe I read in one of your posts that you were young enough still to get money from your parents. But your attitude about “ghetto people”… I was taught that some older bougie types held this attitude back in the day. So, I’m just wondering if you’re really some old dude pretending to be a young ‘un. 🙂
Seriously, though, some of the most “ghetto people” I’ve ever known (using your negative interpretation) were white. As a matter of fact, I’m working with a guy right now (luckily for me, I don’t have to work too closely with hime) who is the most Ghetto person I’ve ever personnally known. And he is white, middle-aged, fat, loud, barely speaks English (and he is native-born US citizen), says ignorant stuff, takes offense if people aren’t paying attention to him, struts around like his $hit don’t stink–but he’s making money for our company (so far–he’s new, so we’ll see how long that lasts). He is the Epitome of Ghetto.
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Not to be a d*ck, but how much of what we talk about as racism do you think could be chalked up to WP not being able to tell the difference between Bourgie vs. Ghetto BP.
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@Trublu
“There’s your problem right there, the Cynic: associating your negative “ghetto people” image with Black people.”
No, I don’t associate all black people with ghetto people. If I did that I would hate myself and feel ashamed to be black. I put ghetto folks in a category of their own. In fact, they’re not even real black people to me.
Idk why your telling me some story about the most ghetto people you know being white when I nv said “ghetto” was an exclusively “black” trait. Have you ever seen the ‘Jersey Shore’? I think those are some ghetto a$$ white ppl.
In your comment, you insinuated that you define the term ghetto differently than I do. Would you mind letting me know what that word means to you?
So, I’m just wondering if you’re really some old dude pretending to be a young ‘un.
I’ll just say I’m not old enough to legally drink. 😉
Idk why you think I am old bc of the way I view ghetto ppl. All of my friends, who are also young, think the same of them.
I look at them the way I do bc their was a significant population of them at the schools I went to growing up. I know how they act, think, etc. and it’s horrible! I admit that I look at them the same way a lot of whites look at blacks. The difference is I don’t define ghetto ppl by their hair texture, skin color, eye shape, etc. I define them by their personality/culture. The former is flat-out wrong bc those are traits ppl were born with, the former is made up of traits ppl choose to have.
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@ Jason
No, it’s not that most White people can’t tell the difference between the two, it’s just that those who are prejudiced would like to hold the ALL blacks responsible for the Ghetto.
They have this weird and illogical idea of racial corporate responsibility as if Black businessmen could go down to a corner in Harlem or Watts, stand on a soap box, and convince all bystanders to repent of their racial sins. And if law-abiding Blacks can’t control Black criminals, then that really says something terrible about how degraded the race must be.
Of course, when you ask them if law-abiding Whites can control White criminals, they draw a blank. If you ask them how responsible they are *personally* for the thieving White stock brokers on Wall Street, or the pedophile Catholic priests, or the White men who have attacked and killed Asian exchange students, they skip over the question, and again divert attention back to Black pathology instead.
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The problem is the certain Bp do believe that we should all think the same. For example, Tyler Perry is crying about Spike Lee not liking his Lifetime copy movies. God forbid!
LOL! I think he’s self serving, it’s not even funny. His movies suck, period. All of his characters have one personality trait, he uses colorism, and Daddy’s Little Girls was some sexist bs. When he can make a Hedwig and The Angry Inch or American Beauty, then maybe he can talk about why doesn’t get any love. And also, he needs to watch Cartoon Wars from South Park.
Cosigned
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“I don’t like ghetto people at all. And when I say ghetto I am talking about a mentality and not location/wealth…
Cosign as well.
But, I think that no matter how many disclaimers one puts in, some people are always going to translate that as
– I don’t like people who LIVE in the ghetto
– I don’t like people who are poor
– I don’t like people who don’t go to college
– I think that I’m better than people in the ghetto
– I don’t like soul food
I guarantee you that someone reading this right now is thinking these exact things and staring angrily at their computer monitor.
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@The Cynic
What do you mean by this? Are you talking physical segregation? If that’s the case, I am not aware of my family or any other immigrants ever doing this for the purpose of separating themselves from AAs. They only hung out with other J’cans bc they were recent immigrants that shared a common culture.
Not literal, and not physical and most of all not “all” immigrants. What I mean by this is that the general attitude that American blacks has is that every other black person sees us as lazy crybabies. The West Indian people are stereotyped as hard-working weed heads, and everybody else is kinda ignored. Tell an ignorant person that you come from St. Croix and they will probably ask you which part of Jamaica is that. For this a lot of people have a lot of opinions on each other without concrete proof. These people will not associate with “the other” if they can’t help it.
West Indians are stereotyped as crazy, they’ll cut you with their machetes, Jamaican men beat there women, it goes on and on and on. I recently heard this foolishness during the Rihanna abuse episode where women were saying she probably provoked Chris Brown into beating her since “you know how those island women are”. This was an educated woman spouting this. On the flip side I’ve seen a West Indian mother upset over her son dating a “Yankee” with strong meaning to marry her.
Not ALL people carry on like this but enough do to where it is a problem. Like I’ve said, if you haven’t had this reality then you’re lucky, many have.
—–
I sooooo want to join the “ghetto” argument but it’s a bad subject all around. I will say to you non-black people reading that black people in general who are not classified as ghetto feel strongly in wanting to disown their loud, uncultured cousins. But we’re stuck together so you have to grin and bear it. This particular video comes to mind: http://bit.ly/guYknY – and you remember that you cannot disown people that look like you. The comments on thing like that are always “black people acting like —“, and we can scream till we’re blue in the face “but that’s them though!” and outsiders will still see it as a black thing.
Heavy Sigh.
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@ Usai
Sorry, but I couldn’t resist. Tyler Perry’s movies in a nutshell…
I’m sure most people have seen this before…
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And I have no idea why it had me as Walter, I’ve never posted under that name before…
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@ The Cynic
I stand corrected…as long as we understand that “acting a fool” cuts across all racial, ethnic, etc. lines.
Basically the description I had of my co-worker, minus anything to do with race or age.
I understand. Because you’re so young, just a word of warning…some people start out with perfectly logical viewpoints of others, but over time, they devolve into Uncle Ruckus. As long as you don’t let that happen to you, I’m sure you’ll have a good life. You already have a good sense of humor.
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I think black unity in America is hard to achieve because black people are first and foremost–human, and as humans, we all have different agendas.
People tend to come together when threatened by an outside source (Civil Rights Movement or the white guy in the room who said “n–ger), but once the threat is perceived to be diminished, back to business as usual.
I also believe the biggest drawback to unity at this moment in time, is the fact that this country (USA) has a HUGE “it’s all about me, throw anyone under the bus” attitude and rewards competitive, divisive behavior, which further fosters a “it’s all about me as I run after the almighty dollar” behavior…blacks buy into this attitude just as much as whites…(I guess that could be considered national unity)
look at that show “Survivor”, the winner is the one who is not a leader, does not work the hardest, not physically the strongest, lies and changes allegiance, basicly plays the typical “corporate America” game….hmm, now that I think about it, I believe Japanese Samurai society was like this too….
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@Franklin
“@ Usai
Sorry, but I couldn’t resist. Tyler Perry’s movies in a nutshell…
[youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRfDgnapUAw&w=480&h=390
I’m sure most people have seen this before…”
Actually, I hadn’t seen this before…freaking hilarious. Thanks.
I saw most of the 1st season of Boondocks, but after that it kept moving around, so the ones I saw I’d catch while channel surfing.
On another note, I do think Uncle Ruckus is totally hilarious. I was pleasantly surprised to see that kind of character lambasted because, even though I’d met few real Uncle Ruckus’, I’d never seen the like acknowledged in the media before.
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@ Linda
“I also believe the biggest drawback to unity at this moment in time, is the fact that this country (USA) has a HUGE “it’s all about me, throw anyone under the bus” attitude and rewards competitive, divisive behavior, which further fosters a “it’s all about me as I run after the almighty dollar” behavior…blacks buy into this attitude just as much as whites…(I guess that could be considered national unity)
look at that show “Survivor”, the winner is the one who is not a leader, does not work the hardest, not physically the strongest, lies and changes allegiance, basicly plays the typical “corporate America” game….hmm, now that I think about it, I believe Japanese Samurai society was like this too….”
Great observation.
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“Layer 2 – American vs. Immigrant
African Americans’ “us versus them” mentality, the effort to stay “the most screwed over minority” and the immigrants who segregate themselves so as not to be confused with native-born blacks is an old and hard issue that will not go away easily.”
As for this Layer 2, as a Jamaican immigrant, I think it’s more or less accurate, but I don’t think we segregate ourselves because we don’t wish to live with or associate with black Americans out of like or dislike…
its about how to best acclimate ourselves to the US in order to achieve our goals.
You have to understand that when we come here, it’s either legally or illegally…we are not familiar with America or its culture/subculture, we have to learn about it over time…black Americans accuse us of “acting White” because we speak the “Queens English” and we don’t behave the way they want us to…
the majority of the newly arrived immigrants depend on the already established West Indian community to guide them and make connections so that he/she can find a job, place to live, school/college information, basically everything necessary to start life in the new country.
I do agree with you on the “we don’t want to be confused for a black American” because most West Indians wish to retain their cultural/National identity in the US just like how the Italians, Irish, Polish, Cubans, etc have managed to retain theirs, while still being called Americans 2 generations down the line.
The West Indian community offers us the comforts from back home such as food, people who share the same/similar culture and language, and motivations…I think Jamaicans are more united in America than we are back home because of the us vs. them mentality…
but don’t get it twisted, we have always united with black Americans against white racism/prejudice…Marcus Garvey, Harry Belafonte, Louis Farrakhan and many others are West Indians who have contributed to the institutionalized racism struggle in this country…
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That’s exactly the problem, Linda. It has been spreading around the world like a virus for the last 10-15 years. And now the legacy of those backwards thinking, Milton Friedman worshipping psychopaths keep infesting the world with their perverted ideology. That’s where the real ill is. The remedy is simple – keep out.
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“Olufemi
That’s exactly the problem, Linda. It has been spreading around the world like a virus for the last 10-15 years. And now the legacy of those backwards thinking, Milton Friedman worshipping psychopaths keep infesting the world with their perverted ideology. That’s where the real ill is. The remedy is simple – keep out.”
I am not sure I follow, Olufemi…please explain about the “remedy is simple–keep out”
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@ Linda
Which part of “keep out” didn’t you understand?
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Olufemi,
Please clarify for me your suggestion as to the remedy to stop the “It’s all about me” syndrome…
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If we keep wasting resources – pumped out of Africa for the predominant part – at the rate the Western world currently does we won’t have enough for the generations to follow. If we keep stuffing the pockets of a few people who already have x fold more than enough for themselves and who make money out of thin air without contributing any utter substance to society we will all perish. Black, White, Asians, all of us. It’s time to say – no more!
When the “It’s all about me” syndrome will strike at the latest is the moment when those people try to make a meal out of banknotes. Bon appétit!
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Ahh, Thank you, now I understand…
I too wish the world was less consumptive and more into preservation of natural resources but the powers that be don’t want it that way–too much money to be made.
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Hope you don’t mind if I join in. I love conversations like this!
I think the “unity” thing is certainly overstated. I believe we are unified (sort of) in wanting the best for Black people (and, as mentioned above, against threats) but long been divided on how to achieve that best. Also, of course, for so long any attempts at any sort of real unifying process over the decades have been roped out, stamped out and burned out.
It’s only in recent years that we’ve had a chance at becoming any kind of unified force (and this doesn’t mean all thinking alike – that will never happen) but now that we have the law on our side (pretty much) and some people have the monetary means, we have few really cohesive and Black oriented communities. Mind, I’ve never lived in the fabled Atlanta, so it’s entirely possible that I have no idea what I am talking about. But I know here many Black people live in the same area, but that is mostly due to poverty and a lack of other options.
Also, I agree with the poster up above – any one who tells you that there was more unity in the “old days” is probably looking back with rose-colored glasses. Especially if you are talking about the 60s, and the competing social justice movements, and King and the Panthers and Malcolm and all that. Love yes; unity, not a chance.
Anyway, on point 1 – I am probably more bourgie, but I live in a mixed – bourgie/ghetto area of mixed colors and cultures. I wouldn’t say that we can’t coexist, exactly – I have some good neighbors, and some pretty awful ones.
Point 2 – I have come across immigrants who want to separate themselves, and also others who are separate more through matters of culture and familiarity than with wanted to be set apart from AA’s. I’ve often thought that one of the great tragedies of slave-descended Black folk (and, of course, a very small one) is that, of all the various ethnicities and such in the U.S., we are pretty much alone in not having anyone to greet when they “get off the boat”, so to speak. Everyone else immigrated here and then turned around to welcome those from their home countries. Without any home country (just an entire, pretty much unfamiliar continent), and with the various African and Jamaican and so one immigrants greeting each other, we simply had no one to greet at all. In general, of course.
Point 3 – Cynic. I don’t have much to do with church type people at all.
Point 4 – I am both, I think. I grew up in a very multicultural atmosphere, where Blackness was just another part of everything-elseness. Dunno how my mom managed that in the 60s, even in CA. It wasn’t until I was older that I encountered some racism, but I would say I took on the scars of others rather than experienced many scarring incidents of my own.
Point 5 – I’ve always considered myself a “dark-skinned” Black woman, because my mom and brother were, to all outward appearances, white. Colorism wasn’t a big thing when I was growing up, though, otherwise someone would have told me that I was actually (compared to many other Black people around me) light-skinned. It’s still not an issue with me.
Point 6 – Huey, though it took me time to throw off the stuff I absorbed without even knowing it and really study Blackness in order to love it in all its forms.
Point 7 – Eh, that’s every culture. I’ve known some really fantastic Black men and women, and some I wouldn’t want to be associated with for anything. Don’t ask me about my ex-husband, though. (Who was not that bad, considering, but still.)
I am, needless to say, a tad brevity impaired. Sorry about that. Great discussion, though.
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Good post.
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The 7 layers and where I see myself in them:
Layer 1 – Bourgie vs. Ghetto
I’m neither bourgeios (sp?) nor ‘ghetto’ and will say right here that I’ve encountered FAR too many ‘ghettoized’ people of all skin shades for me to consider the term racially, although I do feel that many people feel that it’s solely a ‘black thang’.
Layer 2 – Does not apply. I get along with people who GENUINELY want to get along with me, and I don’t have time for silly headgames. My work ethic and intellect speak for themselves.
Layer 3 – Church vs. Cynics
I’m an agnostic, polytheistic pagan with a touch of nihilism thrown in for good measure. Wrap your mouths and minds around that one! 😎
Layer 4 – Racially Scarred vs. Racially Ambiguous
I guess I’m somewhat scarred by my experiences – I hate the ‘n-word’ with a passion, and despise those who use it, regardless of their skin tone.
Layer 5 – Light vs. Dark
Again, doesn’t apply here. My family members run from very light to very dark…so, ultimately, what does it matter?
On the other hand, if a person wants to get in my face with their trite issues, you can bet I’ll have a thing or two to say in response…
Layer 6 – Huey vs. Uncle Ruckus
I don’t watch ‘the Boondocks’, so I’ll just say ‘not applicable’…
Layer 7 – Men vs. Women
I’m female, yes…
I’d like to add another layer, since I didn’t see it obviously addressed:
Layer 8 – ‘True Black’ vs. ‘The Oreo’
The assumption that a well-read, well-educated, well-spoken individual isn’t “really Black” – what a bunch of nonsense! Why should I speak ‘slanglish’? If my manner of speaking causes you to feel inferior, then that’s on you. I refuse to lower myself merely for someone else’s benefit or comfort level!
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[…] This post is based upon a guest post by Greg Dragon featured on Abagond. […]
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Layer 1: I don’t know. I grew middle-class, but both sides annoy me. I’m more pf a hippy
Layer 2: Don’t really care. I hang around anyone that I think is cool. The rest is purely secondary
Layer 3: I grew up Catholic, but I never truely beilieved in it. I find the black chruch silly and too over the top. I follow the left-handed path.*
Layer 4: I experince bias towards both whites and blacks. I’m Ambiguously Brown(red).
Layer 5: I thinks retarded. I was told I was ugly by both because of my black lips and red skin. The kids in class used to call me a dirty indun. Or that I smoke crack.
Layer 6: Neither. I didn’t love any culture a 100 percent. I like what I like. I take what I like and embrace it. I’m not into American culture in general like that.
Layer 7: Yes, but there’s sexism is Alomst every culture. Me and my Mexian girlfriends have the same issuses.
Left-handed path :” They often reject societal convention and the status quo, which some suggest is in a search for spiritual freedom. As a part of this, LHP followers embrace magical techniques that would traditionally be viewed as taboo, for instance using sex magic or embracing Satanic imagery.[6] As Mogg Morgan wrote, the “breaking of taboos makes magick more potent and can lead to reintegration and liberation, [for example] the eating of meat in a vegetarian community can have the same liberating effect as anal intercourse in a sexually inhibited straight society.”[7]
They often question religious or moral dogma, instead adhering to forms of personal anarchism.[8]
They often embrace sexuality and incorporate it into magical ritual.[9] “
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@Usagi, Nanette, Sepultura
Thx 4 takin the time out to discuss where you fall on each of the layers discussed. I enjoy reading those comments. Very interesting
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Interesting article. As for where I stand on the layers… well I’m no fan of hierarchies but here it goes:
Layer 1 – Bourgie vs. Ghetto
I never identified with either one. I’ve lived in both poor and rich neighborhoods at various points of my life, but I tend to get along better with people who are working or middle class. While I would be upper middle class, I couldn’t stand most people like that regardless of race. They came off like a bunch of selfish, stuck-up, cruel, and egotistical jackasses.
Layer 2 – American vs. Immigrant
My parents are immigrants from Ghana, but I was born here in the USA. Unlike most of the comments here, what I’ve noticed is that some of the Black Americans I knew tended to look down on Immigrants, especially those from Africa and Asia. The stuff that they would say would not be out of a place of a Minutemen rally.
Layer 3 – Church vs. Cynics
I don’t really have a religious affilation and I do not like organized religion due to its use in oppressing people in this country and around the world. As a libertarian socialist I would prefer to see a world free of religion or at least one where religious belief is a private matter and not one to be forced on the people. At the same time, I have no problem with people who are devout in their beliefs but as soon as they feel that they have the right to kill, promote BS, or hold back society…
Layer 4 – Racially Scarred vs. Racially Ambiguous
No one was stupid enough to call me a nigger to my face, but the racism I encountered tended to be more passive-aggressive and from all races. In fact, I got the most shit from other Blacks who felt that because I acted the way I did that I somehow hated being Black. How a person can be a ‘color’ which has no basis in biological fact…
Layer 5 – Light vs. Dark
Never really encountered this attitude in person, though I’m sure the people who thought I was ugly in grade school probably said what they did because of my skin tone. Of course, these same people would then crow about the need for Black Unity. Also, my father discriminated in favor of his lighter skinned children (which he had out of wedlock and without any shame whatsoever). I think colorism is really a form of internalized racism.
Layer 6 – Huey vs. Uncle Ruckus
I’m a Huey, but without the implied misogyny and homophobia. I just hope I never meet someone like Uncle Ruckus in person. That character was depressing at times.
Layer 7 – Men vs. Women
I’ve never dated (didn’t think I was ready for it) so I can’t speak much on this. What I can say is that I’ve gotten shit from both men and women for all sorts of reasons. So, these days, I separate people into two categories: Assholes and not-Assholes. Also, what about people who do not identify with either gender? I’m not one for gender essentialism.
Here’s another layer: Conformist vs. Rebel
Conformists (of all races) believe that you have to act a certain way in order to belong to the group. Rebels resist this and even create their own identities in opposition to this. Hence Black conservatives, Black nationalists, etc. What would anyone here think of that?
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All the time. It annoys me greatly. Chicago is full of them. I have to put them in their place. I don’t see how not liking/relate to ONE form of black culture that only been in existence for 150 years means self-hatred. What about all the white Americans that hate the French ?
Yep, I met a couple before. People try to call me Ruckus, then the same people will turn around and say someone’s ugly because they’re dark. I’m not Huey, though. Like I said, both are too extreme. I’m happy in the middle.
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I cosign this. I don’t actually read/watch Boondocks, so I wasn’t aware of this issue.
lol, sepultura, I agree. I get this one a lot – mostly teasing from my daughter and granddaughter because I don’t eat certain foods a certain way, or because I read a lot and only learned one speech pattern, so on. I don’t usually have Black people say that seriously to me, though when I was younger white people would say or imply it, which was far more of an issue. The whole “you are more like us than like them” thing, in attempts to separate out and definitely un-unify people.
I learned long ago that it doesn’t work that way, though I can think of no greater example than the Katrina coverage, where teachers, housewives, coaches, cabbies, children, babies, thuggish teens, homeowners, lawyers, old people, poor people, better off people, bourgie, ghetto, well-spoken, well-read, illiterate, and basically everyone with a dark face was swept into one big, dark amorphous blob and named “the underbelly.”
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“The whole “you are more like us than like them” thing, in attempts to separate out and definitely un-unify people.”
Sounds so sinister and premeditated. maybe it was in your experience but I have trouble visualizing it that way. It sounds like the same observation when made by family was teasing but when made by white friends became some sinister plot.
I suppose I can’t blame you for seeing it that way, I’m sure you have your reasons.
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@ GreatMuta:
Conformist vs. Rebel – good one! I guess I’m heavily in the ‘rebel’ camp, although I’m no fan of labels, heirarchies or the like, either. I’ve never been ‘faddy’; I tend to buy clothes that I like, whether they’re ‘in’ or not, and my musical tastes are as eclectic as my choice of books or foods. I’ll try pretty much anything once; people who say they can’t stand something, when they’ve never even tried it, are pretty self-limiting individuals IMHO.
@Nanette:
I got the ‘Oreo’ label mainly from Black people or white people (Americans from the USA) – people from other countries generally think that I’m not American, which is fascinating to me…
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Jason, a sinister plot? No, I don’t think so. I don’t think it rose to a level of any sort of plot at all.
I grew up in Southern California in the shadow of the Civil Rights Movement, in the 60s. I was too young to be aware of many of the changes going on, but I do know that a good many Nice White People were very anxious to find some Black folks to love and to “save.” Some gravitated toward the angry, sullen, “scarred by life” types; others the brilliant, fierce, Black nationalist types; and others toward types like me, who they viewed as basically “well-adjusted” and already fairly comfortable with, and integrated into, white society.
I have no idea what the experience of others was, but I definitely remember my experience with the whole “acting white” thing. Only in my day it was more “acting like you *think* you’re white”, which was sometimes the result of this carving out that was attempted not so much by white friends, but white adults. And the term had little to do with grades or speech patterns or anything else, though sometimes that was part of it. It had less to do with the embrace of “white culture” and more with the rejection of “black culture.” Or the perceived rejection, anyway.
It’s difficult to explain, but anyway I rarely got the “acting white” appellation, nor did other Black students no matter how high their grades or their presence on the honor roll or how studious or geeky they were, because they did not act to separate themselves (ourselves, whatever) from the other Black students.
Lots more to it, of course, but yeah… a lot different from being teased about not being “really Black” because I don’t like ranch dressing on my teriyaki rice.
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sepultura — weird. I get the “not American” thing, too, especially when people find out my father is Nigerian. Except, I’ve never met my father (he was with UNICEF and returned to Nigeria when his time was up here. My mom didn’t want to go) and have only recently met other family members.
I have no idea where people get the not American thing. Heck, I’ve never even been out of the country, except to Mexico, and that only briefly.
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Who are we to judge anyone at all whether they are ghetto or not. I think this back and forth about definitions of what is ghetto is redundant. Its just another way to have black people looking down on one another. This is coming from a person who identifies as a person and not some silly label(ghetto, bougie, uncle tom, huey). We have bigger issues to focus on….Just my opinion. It just makes my skin crawl when I hear other black people talk about each other, but if a white person does it, its wrong? I love black people but its not that serious. Enjoy life and make the most of what you have.
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@ Fed up
Have you come in fulfillment of my prophecy?
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2011/04/22/the-7-layers-of-division-in-black-america/#comment-85955
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Co-signed, People are stupid and petty. To me, some AA are too senstive and depressing. I can’t see ghetto means black. What the Bundys or the Beverly Hillbillies ?
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I just don’t like ghetto folks at all and I really don’t care who I offend by saying that. Ghetto is not a race to me. It’s more of a culture that I do not care to define at this moment.
Just bc you look like me does not mean you are my family…
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Here is the quote I was looking for:
“All my skinfolk, ain’t my kinfolk” –Zora Neal Hurston
That goes for Uncle Toms, ghetto folks, & even less melanated ppls who have negative traits that I feel shame the human race.
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Nanette wrote: “Lots more to it, of course, but yeah… a lot different from being teased about not being “really Black” because I don’t like ranch dressing on my teriyaki rice.”
Blacks are supposed to like ranch dressing on teriyaki rice?! Never heard that before–it’s a new one for me! LOL
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Abagond:
As I’ve said before many times on your blog, “Don’t make the simple complex.” As black people, all of us know that we’re living in a country that is controlled by white people, the same white people who kidnapped and enslaved our ancestors 500+ years ago. We were stripped of our freedom, homeland, and lives as well because of human greed and racial envy. We come from the best of the best, which is why black people still exist in this country. Slavery and racism changed us as a people, and we should acknowledge that fact. A lot of black people on this planet have been brainwashed to see themselves as inferior to white people, which is offensive to my brain in so many ways. Despite all of the bs that we have to deal with as black people on this planet, “Victory is ours for the taking.”
Abagond, I fall into the category of “Huey.” Very pro-black, pro-blackwoman, pro-freedom, and so forth. I wasn’t as militant about my blackness in the past as I am now, because, I didn’t know or have the info that is available to us now. Like other black people in this country, I was bombarded with images of whiteness on a daily basis: at home, at school, tv, magazines, music videos, etc. Instead of walking around in a daze, I decided to do something about it. Instead of watching bulls**t on MTV and BET like everybody else, I decided to view what whites watched on tv……national news and financial shows such as (Nightline with Ted Koppel) on ABC. My great-grandmother would give me recent copies of Ebony magazine everytime I would visit her, and I am forever grateful to her for doing that, because it allowed me to see and read about black people who loved being black without apology. Abagond, black people have no more excuses as it relates to class, education, skin-tone, etc. I don’t have any patience for insecure black people, because we have nothing to be insecure about, No Patience! Other blacks may not have the same passion for our race as I do, but that’s okay. Everybody is not wired the same way. In closing, I want black people to love being black, I want blackmen to love blackwomen, and I want black people to be free and happy, Period!!!
Tyrone
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@ The Cynic:
Co-sign. The way some people act is a matter of class level and culture, not race or monetary worth. Some of the most classless individuals I’ve met had plenty of money; conversely, some of the nicest folk I’ve met barely had two pennies to rub together.
I recall a minor incident that had happened to me, long ago. I’d moved to Seattle, WA from a small town in Alaska. Divorced and raising my only child alone, I didn’t have any time (or money) for socializing and getting to know the neighbors. I had to wake up at 4:30 a.m., catch a bus to my son’s child-care facility (in summertime), then catch 2 more buses to get to work – then, repeat the process in reverse when the workday was over. I would get home at 7:30 p.m., make dinner and prepare our lunches for the next day, tuck my son in at 8:30 p.m. and myself in at 9:30 p.m. for a good night’s sleep.
One day, a lady down the hall accosted me when I’d stepped out to check on my laundry. She stated, quite loudly, that “Oh, you think you’re better than everyone else; too good to talk or socialize!” A comment that stupid didn’t rate a response, so I let it die there.
To me, it seemed to be a case of someone else’s inferiority complex. As I’ve stated before, I don’t have the time, patience, or energy to deal with individuals who are obviously damaged.
I carry myself with confidence – that alone is threatening to many, skin color notwithstanding.
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“the same white people who kidnapped and enslaved our ancestors 500+ years ago.”
really? damn those are some old white folks.
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great post! i say the answer to number 1 is that the two groups will never be unified because they often have a completely different outlook towards life – which is usually the reason for their different socio-economic statuses. however there are too many black people who would be considered part of the ghetto group atm. the way to fix that is to get an education and strive for more than your parents.
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Are all Whites unified? All Hispanics? All Asians? NO, no and no.
There is no reason for Black unity except in the face of White racism/hostility. That’s why Blacks were unified in the 50s/60s during the civil rights movement.
There’s no reason for that type of unity now when so many Black Americans are doing quite well and not living in majority Black communities or working in majority Black businesses.
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“There’s no reason for that type of unity now when so many Black Americans are doing quite well and not living in majority Black communities or working in majority Black businesses.”
What percentages do you think?
1) Black Americans doing quite well? %
2) Black Americans not living in majority Black communities? %
3) Black Americans not working in majority Black businesses? %
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@ King:
Great comment. You are one of the people here whose comments I enjoy reading! 😎
When people stop drinking the Kool-Aid, perhaps they’ll utilize their own brains and stop trying to pick others – especially with such ignorant inanity! 🙄
The sheer stupidity of some comments makes me wonder how the questioners survive without some sort of portable life-support system…
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Thank you, sepultura13.
I assure you, the sentiment is mutual 🙂
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@Tyrone and Peanut
Your “black pride” is no different than the KKK’s “white pride”. Racial Purity? Gimme a break! You are racists. Period.
Love –
A black/white dude
ps. people like you made my life the worst. At least your common white person has the sense to be ashamed of their racism.
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I take back those particular insults thrown towards peanut. However saying that ghetto is cool as long as they’re black is a bit wrong headed.
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Agabond,
This is a great post and something that I’ve thought about a lot. Shake my head. I am guilty of falling into several of these categories to one degree or another.
I need more time to think on this post. Keep up the insightful work.
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Abagond:
I’d like to address the comments of Wayne, as it relates to my thoughts on race and racism. This blackman will never apologize for loving black people, Never! I don’t give a damn’ about the opinions of those who are not black, because their opinions don’t matter to me. I respect all people on this planet, but, I’m not gonna allow others to make me feel guilty because I’m black and they’re not. If whites and other non-blacks hate the fact that they’re not of african ancestry, Too Bad! The racial cliches that are often quoted in mainstream media don’t affect me…Race Doesn’t Matter…Love Is Colorblind…We’re All The Same, etc. Do black people love being black, Hell Yes! I want the post-racial crowd to stop the bull***t, because their rhetoric is not fooling anybody. Jealousy and envy are not attractive qualities to have. Exploit blackness, Dilute blackness, Destroy Blackness, and Worship blackness at the same time doesn’t add up to me. Walter, if you’re upset with me because I don’t like self-hating blackmen who think it’s cool to bend over and stand in another man’s shadow, I’m Guilty As Charged!
Tyrone
Black Diamond
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[…] I love the class distinctions in this movie and that it highlights the upper class black demographic in America. Go check it out […]
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[…] The 7 Layers of Division in Black America: […]
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So someone thinks they are so blessed with knowledge that they have narrowed down division among black america to 7 layers. Ha ha. I bet they also think they have everything else figured out too. 😉
Oh the Obama bus tour didn’t visit any black communities that I’m aware of. He’s an Uncle Tom and is selling you blacks out to the “white man”(left wing progressives).
Think for yourself and ponder possibilities. Don’t be fooled into thinking that all blacks are for the black race and all whites are against the black race. You are smarter than that, I hope.
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It seems like some posters on this site are too far gone for rationalization. Those are the ones that are so blind to reason they judge you based on your skin color. They are so ignorant that they don’t even realize how hypocritical they are. It’s almost funny, so i have to catch myself and realize that they too, are human.
You blacks keep screaming discrimination and racism without any reason and you minimize the real cases. You are only hurting your own race but are so foolish you don’t even realize it.
It’s getting to the point that you blacks are turning non-racists white folk into racists. I just want to warn you black racists that if you don’t stop, the white folk will start fighting back. Trust me, you don’t want that.
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Jallen if you’re going to troll at least show up on time.
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@ Jallen
You’re not making sense.
Your first paragraph is particularly disjointed and hard to understand.
What you seem to be saying is that Black people better stop bringing up instances of perceived discrimination because doing so turns non-racists into racist. And we don’t want that.
Is that the gist of it?
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[…] if you are a black person in America and have never had your black wake up call, you may be in a lot of trouble because when it does […]
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don’t know if this applies in USA, but in england there are other such layers:
1) african vs caribbean (especially among the older generations). africans don’t see us as “one of them” and claim we have no culture while many of us refuse to acknowledge our african roots. that, though, is dying out i think because more africans are coming over and getting to know us.
2) relaxed vs natural (women). though there’s no real conflict as far as i know, the relaxed-haired women are clearly the majority.
3) ‘black’ people vs niggers. this roughly equates to your “bourgie vs ghetto” but it’s more to do with attitude/ behaviour/ culture than economic status.
4) lightskin-lovers vs darkskin-lovers (men). unfortunately the former are a very solid majority and are often blind to their own internalised racism.
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I should’ve said hi to everyone when I posted my first comment, but I didn’t. So, hello, everyone. Ever since I was a young black girl, I’v known that there was division among the black/AA race. Its really refreshing to see a website that acknowledges it. From what little I’ve read so far, there’s no sugar-coating. Anyway, your 7 Layers of Division is a breath of fresh air. Very informative and precise. Straight up, no chaser. Feels as though you’ve been reading my mind for years. Thank you very much.
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Thanks for your comment, I too love stalking Abagond’s site for the “straight no chaser” approach to conversation that is presented and felt honored with adding my 2 cents. Lately there has been a question as to whether we black folks should air out the dirty laundry to “company” but I am not sure why that would help anything. Sites like this one, articles that candidly speak to our issues AND offers real solutions to them are much more useful in my opinion but until the collective is ready to talk it will always be a rarity to find the truth through publishing.
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Over here there’r relaxed vs. natural AND real hair vs. weaves/extensions/wigs. I don’t really care who’s winning or who’s won these silly contests. But lots of females have taken it to the extreme.
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Layer 3 – Church vs. Cynics
Christianity has a whole helluva lot to answer for. So does the other “universal” Abrahamic religion – Islam.
These two religions do not respect religious and cultural freedom.
They envision the entire planet converted to their ideologies.
Christian missionaries enter foreign countries to undermine their cultures, traditions, beliefs, religions and families “in the name of Christ”.
Islam does the same.
Black people are better off trying to learn some indigenous African traditions and belief systems. OR taking to Buddhism or Hindu traditions like Hare Krishna or Yoga.
At least the South Asian traditions grok the concept of “freedom of religion” and do not seek to replace one culture or one religion with another.
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It should read: Over here its relaxed vs. natural AND real hair vs. weave/extensions/wigs. I don’t care who’s winning or who’s won these silly contests. But lots of these females have taken it to the extreme.
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This was a great post, Unfortunately, this craziness still goes on and unfortunately it will continue twenty years from now.
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are asking me why about the hair thang?
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My personal outlook on the 7 Layers of Division:
1.) Bourgie vs. Ghetto–I am neither, but I know ppl who are. Even ppl who live in the hood act bourgie. It’s referred as ghetto fabulous. Only real difference is that those residind in the ghetto spend beyond their means and purchase unnecessary items all the time. Bourgie folks could be considered the working class. They are able to afford whatever they want/need/desire. Ghetto ppl look down on bourgie ppl simply b/c they have what they have: a nice/lovely and comfortable home. decent car(s), etc. There’s at least one reason why bourgie folks may look down on ghetto folks. Ni**ers WILL scope out how you’re living and plot to rob your home. I could go on and on about these two groups, but I won’t. I will say this though. Personally, I won’t consider a person (male or female) bourgie or ghetto until I see their true colors. Personally, I’m neither b/c I’m who I am.
2.) Ameican vs. Immigrant–Not sure what you mean, so I’m gonna change this category to African American/Black vs. Immigrant(Chinese, Koreans, etc)–For some years now, I’ve witnessed black ppl having much attitude w/ the Chinese and Koreans for the most dumbest reasons. They’ve opened up stores mostly in black neighorhoods. Ignorant blacks and their kids cuss and fuss at the owner(s) and worker(s) everyday. I feel as though the black males in the neighborhood had been living there for years and not once did it dawn on them to put their money together and purchase/lease a building and provide the essentials items needed by those in the coomunity. Now that non-blacks have accomplished this, blacks want to act disrespectful towards them.
3.) Church vs. Cynics–These two titles are go hand and hand. Let’s see. Selfish, greedy, hypocrites, liars, back-stabbers. Yep, ppl like this fill the church house.
4.) Racially Scarred vs. Racially Ambiguous–By whom? I have never been called ni**er by a white person. Not to my face anyway.
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4.) con’t–Don’t care if anyone, black or white, says it behind my back. An elderly black female called me one, and I called her one right back. When she said, “Don’t be callin’ me no ni**er.” I said, “Well, don’t be callin’ me one.” She never called me one again. I really believe that the likes of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton have racially scarred us by overloading our brains w/ racism. S**t that has absolutely nothing to do w/ racism wll be turned into a race issue. They’ve been doing this for years. So has a lot of other black ppl/organizations.
5.) Light vs. Dark–This is like reverse racism. Blacks hatin’ on blacks b/c of our skin color. Really? Many black ppl were taught/told/given the impression they were ugly. Sometimes in our own neighborhoods and/or homes. Remember that test they performed w/ little black girls about which doll baby they liked/thought was prettier, the black or the white doll? All of the little black girls picked the white doll. What went through my mind when I saw that clip was, Why didn’t they choose the black doll? Was it b/c they had been called ugly? Who called them ugly? I remember when Little Richard said that his daddy called him ugly and said that he wasn’t gonna amount to anything. At the time, his daddy had long passed away and Little Richard was at least 50-years old and you could here the pain in his voice and he started to cry. There were tears in his eyes and he was really overcome w/ emotion. Being told by a parent/parents is a long-lasting hurt.
6.) Huey vs. Uncle Rukus–The few times I watched the Boondocks, Huey reminded me of Michael from Good Times w/ a splash of Black Panthers, a militant midget. He’s pro-black but will respect others, as long as they know where he stands. Uncle Ruckus is the ignorant ni**er I could slap the black off of. There are a lot of these old dudes in every city and town. I hate ’em w/ a passion. And I don’t respect them. There females like him, and I don’t re
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6. con’t) spect any oof those bi**hes. God, I’m so fortunate to not be like them.
7.) Men vs. Women–I really hadn’t realized there was a war/battle between the sexes until Sharazad Ali came out w/ those books: The Blackman’s Guide To Understanding The Blackwoman and The Blackwoman’s Guide To Understanding The Blackman. Those books provided an abundance of infornation for me. I’ve never received that much info/history in school or home. I feel as though she threw my a lifeline, and a friend of mine thinks of Ms. Ali as a lifesavor to any lost and confused person. There’s a few reasons why I respect her. A.) She researched black ppl for 40 years. As she was conducting her research, she was around them and observing them. I don’t know about y’all but sometimes I can’t be around black ppl for 40 minutes. B.) Ms. Ali wrote two books. She didn’t just write one or the other b/c the reality is blackmen and blackwomen could use some help to strengthen ourselves, our communities, our families, our realationships/marriages. You can call it togetherness, unity, or basically being on the same page. C.) The sistah predicted how much criticism she was gonna have to face BEFORE the books even came out and she faced mobs of black ppl head on. She was on Our Voices w/ Al Sharpton and HE agreed w/ her. Didn’t really mean to go on and on, but the sista is correct when she said that black ppl have to start depending on ourselves to take care of ourselves and each other.
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@toomanygrandkids: All excellent points.
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I just read the True Black and Oreo comments. That layer could be a spin-off of the Bourgie vs, Ghetto layer. Unfortunately, ghetto folks consider black ppl who speak proper English as bourgie, even if they also live in the same neighborhood. I’m not gonna try to figure that one out.
All my skinfolk, ain’t my kinfolk–LOVE LOVE LOVE IT!
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thanx mary
has anyone ever heard of this book? I just found out about it this morning.
http://www.pittsreport.com/2010/11/shakedown
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Black communities really became ghettoes during the crack cocaine epidemic. My Lord, I hadn’t seen a group of ppl bow down and worship a drug like crack. It’s been claimed/reported that corrupt CIA/DEA and other gov’t officials permitted tons of it to cross the border(s). Were the black communities targeted? Maybe. But once dealers got a hold to that mess and began offering it to their own ppl, it was the beginning of the end for prosperity (sp?) that working-class blacks had achieved. Gone were the paychecks b/c work/a job became unimportant. Grown-up/Adult parents transformed into unfit and neglectful males and females. Children were taken out of the home b/c mothers became crackhead wh**es/ho’s and men became trifling ni**ers. This epidemic was a forest fire that still burns today. It wasn’t racism that forced black dealers to buy large quantities of powdered cocaine. Racism had nothing to do w/ dealers welcoming those shipments of cocaine into/within the black communities. For entirely too many years too many black folks have blamed the destruction of the black family on racism, slavery, and the white race. These pathetic excuses have played out. se
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May I add, with much respect, you all would be considered bourgie to ghetto folks. They would say that you were talking ‘white’. I have been reading through threads and comments, and y’all have given ME so much info about not only black history but international history. Your thoughts and knowledge are what ghetto pplfrown on. For some reason, they really don’t consider black history important enough to talk about or learn from. The moment I began reading threadsand comments I was like, WOW! I was cooking and almost burned my food b/c I couldn’t stop reading. Info that I had no knowledge of and info that I had forgotten–its all here. Hats off to all of you.
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Reblogged this on Black Supremacy Love and Unity.
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The 7 Layers of Division you just posted was a great read. what i noticed is that there’s ALOT of overlap, especially with layer 4 and 1. but there’s a 8th layer that’s based on sub/pop-culture differences. for instance when ever there’s a black “alt” movement rest assured intra-racism will rear it’s ugly head. basically it’s standard black american culture vs alternative black cultures (i.e, blacks that’s into anything alternative than the stereotypical black american stuff, may overlap with layer 1). black Americans have a very rigid view about what blacks should be into as far as pop-culture goes break that norm and you’re a outcast and ridiculed for liking “white stuff”, on the flip side almost every black alt movement i have seen can’t seem to justify their interest without bitterly trashing other black people. i have seen it in the black metal movement, the afro-punk movement, the black goth movement etc etc…and it always made me uncomfortable. but why are we like this??
and then there’s the obvious division that was surprisingly overlooked. conservatives vs liberals. or alternatively black dems who might be socially conservative/moderates (mostly southern blacks) vs black conservatives vs black social progressives/liberals (because it’s actually a 3 tier rivalry). could over lap with layer 3
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i mean to say the post that YOU posted
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Reblogged this on Undefined.
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[…] Greg Dragon from the Hall of the Black Dragon a site that I found through a chain of blogs (Abagon read the entire article), this has been on the web for a while, and I wish I we had have seen it sooner, but here […]
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We all know the problems with the system. Truth be told it’s a must that we speak life not death into our lives, we have overcome more that this …….TRUTH!!!!
a few seconds ago · Like
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Great post and so true. There is so much division in our communities, it is unreal
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Reblogged this on Failure to Listen and commented:
Before “unity” we must accept ourselves.
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What about division in White America.
1. Christian vs. Jew
2. Catholic vs. Protestant
3. Rich vs. Poor
4. Conservative vs. Liberal
5. Straight vs. Homosexual
6. White Collar vs. Blue Collar
7. Self-hating Whites vs Proud Whites
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@Bobby M:
How about the divisions between men with small genitals and ones with large endowments? How about fat vs skinny? The lists are endless! Tell me Bobby, do you suffer from the Irishman’s curse? Is that why you are here?
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I would like to submit another layer of division for consideration:
Academic VS Concious
Those are the best terms I could come up with to describe the sometimes conflicting approach to “problem solving” among black people because at the end of the day, all our problems come down to the one that never goes away; racism in the form of white supremacy.
Although the two approaches blend quite well when used tactically, Ive seen far too many arguments and lost a good friend over this division. Academics push the myth of linear progress, and the Concious crowd hits you with dogma and theology. Put another way, one side says “look outward”, the other side says “look inward”.
I use em both, since everybody hates me anyway.
I think that sitcom “A Different World” may have highlit the phenomenon on a few episodes?
The only place Ive ever seen the division made whole was during my time at the Cress Welsing Institute. Dr. Welsing is a hard core academic, but she ain’t afraid to make the intuitive leap and drop some voodoo when the opportunity presents itself.
I think she set a good example because she valued both knowledge and wisdom, science and religion, faith and willpower…
My suggestion?
Use the ordnance the target calls for and always be results oriented.
In other words, do and say what works.
What works to do what?
What works to solve problems WITHOUT causing other problems.
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@tishauna: Astute observations on the culture.
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tishauna
black Americans have a very rigid view about what blacks should be into as far as pop-culture goes break that norm and you’re a outcast and ridiculed for liking “white stuff”,
——————————————————————————————————-
Indeed. But the irony is, white alt music is often a style lifted from black people.
For example. David Byrne and Talking Heads were a bunch of art/music majors in college who lifted much of their sound (poly rhythms, ska, zee-bop…) from black/African/dark skinned cultures they studied in school.
So imagine my surprise when someone turned me on to Fela?
Sting and The Police?
its just speed up, watered down Reggae; the examples are countless…
Black people may not get the credit, but we are the inovators when it comes to music.
*be advised”
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A long time discussion, and thread…The so called divisions among blacks are somewhat natural, because the natural differences among us are too vast to completely comprehend. Harder to comprehend are the social differences. The former is due to the limitations of natural understanding. The latter results from the interference by our captors, of our natural understandings. Despite this, we are united under the nature of our genesis. This realization is the prime target of our psychological, physical, social, and intellectual siege. As our discussions of our unity, and realization of our enemy, progress, our unity may become more evident socially. Hampering this, is the realization that when we were united under cultural terms in Africa, we were so viciously attacked, which has left a stubborn fear, a traumatic condition bordering between psychosis and strategy, that sabotages the correct realization from happening, or becoming “mainstream” (the “white” river of satisfaction”). So, work harder, and believe stronger, in our unity, to speed and secure development, making that “mainstream” not a continuing injustice and delusion, but returned to truth.
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Stop acting like white people aren’t important
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Who you talking to, Bobby, Nature?
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Knock it off.
Whites invented the telephone, audio recording, polio vaccine, and penicillin, along with millions of other things
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They also invented haggis so that should tell you their true intentions!
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Blacks invented AIDS. Your point?
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Blacks invented AIDS. Your point?
I don’t have one, but neither do you. That’s the point Einstein.
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@Bobby M
Where did you get the belief that Black people invented AIDs? That is a hilarious yet faulty belief. If you hate Black people so much, why are you on here? And are you aware that White Europeans have stolen and have taken credit for inventions and civilizations that aren’t theirs?
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Honestly I don’t fit into any of these ”divisions” of ”Black America”(There is no such thing in my eyes but whatever). I am my own unique person with my own personal experiences. I didn’t grow up in the ghetto, I am not fat or ugly nor do I ever date thugs. I grew up in a mostly White, small town and I prefer to date outside of my race and I plan on getting a college degree in four years. I am sure that there are some Black people who are like me as well as Black people who grew up in the ghetto. Black people are not a monolith.
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Reblogged this on The3123 and commented:
From Abagond, something that all persons should read. Before we think about UNITY, we have to conquer division.
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Back in the slavery period, the master saw differences in blacks as a form of control mechanism – keep them separate and its easier to control. Make sure they are not united. It’s a damn shame that post slavery we can’t get over that. There are differences in every race, but they embrace it. I think we feel so sorry for ourselves that we don’t control anything in this land, that we abuse ourselves with self-hate. WE ARE ONLY as strong as our weakest link. Our objective should be to strengthening our weakest link so the whole could look at us as STRONG/UNITED/LOVE OURSELVES.
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Reblogged this on Back 2 BLACK and commented:
We have some work to do, SO LET’S START NOW!
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These are psychological and sociological phenomenon in our community. If you don’t address them as such you will find yourself arguing a point with an individual not realizing you are feeding the cognitive dissonance complex within them. Understanding black psychology, psychology, and sociology and scheme methods of countering or nullify certain environmental psychological and psychological phenomenon. but you also need to know how to recognize specific phenomenon and apply that knowledge.
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This list is too simplistic and stereotypical. Each layer can be refuted by the real people we all know. The one thing lacking were suggestions of ideas to unite around. We can sit back and write simple-minded opinions that are gladly accepted by those who have no “skin in the game”, or we can gather around those things that unite us. It does not require acceptance at HuffPost or salon or any other media outlet. Indeed, we would be better off without telling “the man” our business or signaling our next moves.
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[…] https://abagond.wordpress.com/2011/04/22/the-7-layers-of-division-in-black-america/ […]
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Reblogged this on A Black Writer in Berlin and commented:
There are more than seven, actually.
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