The Srebrenica Genocide, relatively unknown to most Westerners – well, at least to Americans – was the most atrocious mass killing in Europe since World War II when the Nazis tried to exterminate the Jews. Srebrenica was declared a U.N. “safe-zone,” an area where people could seek refuge from mass killings and be protected by U.N. troops. Yet over 8,000 men and boys died, with more mass graves still to be discovered. Srebrenica, a Bosniak (Muslim) majority city in eastern Bosnia, was overrun on July 11th 1995 by Bosnian Serb forces under the command of Ratko Mladic – at least according to Western media.
However, according to many eyewitness testimonies, including those at the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (ICTY), the Dutch peacekeeping soldiers assisted Serbs in committing genocide by helping the Serbs separate men from the women and children.
Mustafa Ceric, Grand Mustafi of Bosnia, said this to Spanish journalist Juan Goytisolo in an interview during the Bosnian War:
I am the only member of the Muslim religious community in Bosnia educated both in the Near East and the West. Until last year I firmly believed in the humanist values of Europe: its democratic ideals, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the freedom of belief at the heart of its lay states, that is, in the noble precepts inscribed in their constitutions. The Bosnian people — Bosniaks and many Croats and Serbs — believed in them as well: they wanted to live within the framework of a multi-ethnic, multicultural state. Since May 1992 we have been sacrificing our lives for the principles of the United Nations Charter. And what has happened? Instead of helping us, European governments, led by England and France, have folded their arms: they are allowing us to be exterminated and deny us the right to defend ourselves by imposing an arms embargo that leaves us defenseless at the mercy of the enormous arsenal of the Yugoslavian army that Milosevic confiscated for his own personal use.
After this bitter cup, I can no longer believe in European humanism. The ideas worthy of respect in the Universal Declaration on Human Rights have died in Bosnia. Tens of thousands of men and women who also supported them are now stacked up on top of each other through lack of space in the cemeteries of Sarajevo or lie in common graves throughout the territory of Bosnia. Say it loud and clear: they died defending these ideas in the midst of the indifference or hypocritical compassion of European statesmen and diplomats.
With such an embarrassing response by the West, many Muslims have bitterly pointed out the fact that the Jews, no matter how westernized or liberal, were still massacred by Hitler. The Bosniaks were some of the most liberal, pro-American, westernized people, yet it still did not stop the massacre, nor did the West do anything until it was too late.
See also:
- The original on Serpentus’s blog: The Srebrenica Genocide–The Hypocrisy and Betrayal of the West
- Also by Serpentus: Stereotypes about Russian women
- genocide
- How to deny a genocide
- The genocide in Southern Sudan
If you consider that the failure of the previous Dutch peacekeeping mission on the Balkans is best remembered as the First World War, there was improvement…
Good News on the Dutch-Ethiopian front:
A church in Addis Abeba sends out a couple of missionaries to the Netherlands, (they still had a couple hanging around, who came from the country before… but still christians from an AFRICAN country are evangelizing Europe again and paying for that in gold, yay! )
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This is low-grade Muslim propaganda. While about 7,000 Bosnian Muslims were killed in and around Srebrenica for about 4 days beginning 11 July 1995, most of the dead were soldiers. Moreover, the Muslim garrison at Srebrenica, led by the loathsome Naser Oric (who was hated by most Muslims for his cruelty) had murdered thousands of local Serbs from 1992 to 1995. What happened was payback. An ugly war crime, to be sure, but hardly genocide. I won’t even go into the established fact that the Muslim government in Sarajevo actually allowed the massacre to happen, so they would get Western direct intervention … which they did.
You need to get your facts straight. And btw, Reis Ceric is an apologist for Islamic extremism, hardly a balanced source.
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How is it that the racist graffiti at the end of the post is “Dutch” when it is clearly written in English? The languages are closely related, but even the words that are pronounced similarly tend to have different spellings.
Menken: Genocide is a crime that has a very high evidential threshold: both investigators and courts determined that the Srebrenica Massacre met that threshold to count as a genocide, in terms of scale of the crime and the intent of the perpetrators. The only disputes are how far up the chain of command one assigns responsibility, and the far more individual question of “what does this all mean?”
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“Reis Ceric is an apologist for Islamic extremism, hardly a balanced source.”
Ceric has certainly made public a number of controversal views: he is certainly a Bosnian nationalist and Islam plays a central role in his nationalism, but given the amount of interfaith work he has done, his condemnations of antisemitism, et cetera, it’s hard to make the argument that he has strong links to Islamic extremism– and it seems to me that most Islamic extremists would view him as some form of apostate.
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The poster at the end of the post is by Bosnian artist Šejla Kamerić. She got the graffiti from the army barracks near Srebrenica where the Dutch soldiers stayed. Here is the original graffiti:
It was not the only graffiti in English:
http://srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com/2008/06/dutch-graffiti-in-srebrenica-sickening.html
According to the Wikipedia 87% of the Dutch know English.
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I realize that Dutch people are often fluent in English, I just find it a little odd that Dutch soldiers would be using English to communicate with one another in their off-hours. Is it possible that some of this graffiti was made by British or Canadian troops who also participated in UNPROFOR?
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Ian, you are assuming that the Dutch were writing the graffiti only for themselves. Has it occurred to you that they may have wanted many more people to be able to read it, even after they had gone, and therefore wrote it in an international language?
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A problem is that what is written in Dutch is not translated, but that a beautifully done text in GERMAN, is called Dutch.
(Though English in the Dutch military is about 100 %, German is much less popular.)
That’s enough to make me suspicious.
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But it only takes one guy who can write German.
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I’m not dismissing the possibility, King, I just find it odd that Dutch soldiers would graffiti in English unless they were deliberately trying to communicate with English speakers– so I wonder if this was an exclusively Dutch barrack.
This isn’t to defend the Dutch members of UNPROFOR: their inaction during the Srebrenica Massacre is damning enough.
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Here are Dutch children
Here are Bosnian children
See the difference? The Bosnians are clearly genetically inferior!!
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@ Ian
“I’m not dismissing the possibility, King, I just find it odd that Dutch soldiers would graffiti in English unless they were deliberately trying to communicate with English speakers.”
Perhaps.
Do many Bosnians speak Dutch?
Do a higher percent of them read English?
Maybe they wanted the insult to be clearly understood by the insulted?
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As for 22 is to 22,000,000 or more, the Cellist of Sarajevo played.
Adagio in G by Albino
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@mencken: yeah, the dutch figured that those hunderds of boys aged between 12 to 15 were mafiosi?? What a BS.
The dutch were chickens and let the serbs to kill more than 7000 civilians, some muslim gunmen, some hospital patients, just to save their own asses. That is called cowardice in any culture. Lucky for us that the media was there to show and record it for the whole world.
Maybe I did not write the name Mladic correctly but I know what he did and so do you. He gave the order to kill all men above the age 12. And his men did.
I don’t care what this Cercic is. I know what I saw and heard from the refugees, eye witnesses.
Nobody is denying that US war in Irak cost some 250 000 civilians dead. Some estimates are 300 000.
In what capacity you served in Bosnia and in which troops? This is getting interesting.
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Abagond:
The UN is a waste of time and money, as it relates to protecting the innocent on this planet. If you’re white and muslim, they might ride in on a pale horse to save you, but if you’re black and christian/muslim in africa don’t hold your breath. Why are the lives of white arabs and eastern-europeans more precious than those of blacks in africa? Abagond, I’m tired of the bulls**t from holier than thou intellectuals in London, Paris, and Rome. This is the same group that pressured Obama to go into Libya, but I haven’t heard a peep out of them as it relates to Congo, Ivory Coast, and Somolia, Go Figure! They obsess over black people and culture, but can’t protect blackness at the same time.
Tyrone,
Free Aquarius
PS…PBS is airing a special by Dr. Henry Louis Gates tonight at 8PMEST titled “Blacks In Latin-America.”
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@ Tyrone: Yeah, I know.
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@Mencken
“This is low-grade Muslim propaganda.”
This is the truth! SREBRENICA GENOCIDE IS NOT A MATTER OF ANYBODY’S OPINION; IT’S A JUDICIAL FACT RECOGNIZED FIRST BY THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL TRIBUNAL FOR THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA AND SUBSEQUENTLY BY THE INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE.
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Yell much?
I find people yell when they don’t have facts on their side.
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@Mencken
“most of the dead were soldiers.”
Most of the dead were defenseless men, boys, and the elderly.
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Simply untrue. Go read the UN reports, they are all available. Most of the men between 16 and 60 inside the Srebrenica enclave were soldiers of the ABiH 28th Division. The fact that they in many cases took off their uniforms does not make them civilians.
Of the 7,000 dead at Srebrenica, approximately 2,000 were executed very quickly by elements of the VRS 30th Diversionary Detachment, the rest died over the next 4 days in a series of very one-sided engagements. Several thousand Bosniaks survived and reached the lines of ABiH II Corps starting 13 July.
No denying that the Serbs killed many of the dead in a non-military way, but a lot were killed by artillery and long-rage machine gun fire too. It was a war crime, ie a cold-blooded massacre, not genocide in the sense that, say, Rwanda was.
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@Mencken
“Yell much?”
–ad hominen logical fallacy
“I find people yell when they don’t have facts on their side.”
I have more than enough facts.
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Where are those facts? Please refute my last, quite detailed, comment, if you can.
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Statement by Carla del Ponte tribunal prosecutor to the ICTY (07 June 2006):
“1) The Prosecution has proven an international armed conflict in Bosnia and Herzegovina no less than five times. This proves that there was no civil war in Bosnia-Herzegovina as previously thought, but a full blown international attack on Bosnia-Herzegovina by neighbouring Serbia.
2) An amendment to the Rules was adopted that would allow a Trial Chamber to direct the Prosecutor to cut counts in an indictment, which Mrs. Del Ponte justly refuses to do.
3) Serbia has the main responsibility to locate, arrest and transfer all six fugitives. The co-operation provided by Serbia to the ICTY has been and remains very difficult and frustrating.
4) Nobody is searching actively for primary orchestrators of Srebrenica massacre: Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic. [Also see: $5,000,000 Reward posted by the US Justice Department for the capture of Radovan Karadzic and/or Ratko Mladic]”
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“It was a war crime, ie a cold-blooded massacre, not genocide.”
The Srebrenica Genocide is a judicial fact recognized first by the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia and subsequently by the International Court of Justice.
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“Naser Oric had murdered thousands of local Serbs from 1992 to 1995.”
Naser Oric was acquitted of any war crimes.
http://static.rnw.nl/migratie/www.rnw.nl/internationaljustice/tribunals/ICTY/080703-naser-oric-ICTY-appeal-redirected
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I have been an expert witness at the ICTY, for both prosecution and defense cases, so I’m pretty sure I know a lot more about this than you do.
The ICTY is hardly the arbiter of historical fact. Guilty people have been acquitted, and in a few cases innocent people have been convicted.
The ICTY is far more a political than judicial instrument, as everyone involved with it knows. The fact that Oric walked means nothing. I recall OJ did too.
BTW if the Serbs did nothing to locate Karadzic, why have they already handed him over to The Hague?
Again, get your facts straight.
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“I have been an expert witness at the ICTY, for both prosecution and defense cases, so I’m pretty sure I know a lot more about this than you do.”
O.K., just who are you? You’re not Jelena Rasic who bribed witnesses in order to defend Serb murderers are you?
“BTW if the Serbs did nothing to locate Karadzic, why have they already handed him over to The Hague?”
Then why have they not handed over Ratko Mladic and other war criminals wanted in court? When Serbia apologized for Srebrenica, most suspected it was just for E.U. membership.
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I’m not a Serb, in fact I’m not from the Balkans at all – so why don’t you apologize for that gratuitous insult implying criminality on my part? Or are you that rude and crude?
Believe me, the Tadic government would love to hand over Mladic, they are sick of the issue.
Have you spent any time in the region? Do you speak any of the languages? Or are you just a typical American who reads a lot of stuff online?
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“Again, get your facts straight.”
I believe you should get your facts straight. I do not know why you are denying a clear-cut case of genocide. You are just like the Holocaust-deniers.
Are you Serbian? Is that why you try to deny genocide. I’ll let you know that there are brave and prominent Serbs that realize what truly happened–such as Mothers in Black.
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You are really something … when did I mention the Holocaust at all? Which OF COURSE happened.
And OF COURSE you think I’m a Serb. How very … racist of you.
Special, you are.
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I am questioning your use of the term genocide because I have spent a lot of time in the region, particularly Bosnia, in several capacities, including service as a peacekeeper. I know what I know; I was there.
Please establish your bona fides on this topic.
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“Why don’t you apologize for that gratuitous insult implying criminality on my part?”
I was just joking, but things typed can mean differently than in speech.
I should think you should apologize for denying genocide.
“Have you spent any time in the region? Do you speak any of the languages?”
That is another ad hominen logical fallacy. You yourself said that you weren’t from the Balkans.
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Some joke. People sue for libel over less.
So, in other words, you know nothing about the Balkans, never been there, are ignorant of the languages and cultures, and think you are informed because you’ve read a lot of highly polemical stuff online.
As I expected.
FYI that I am not from the Balkans gives me an advantage, as I have no “dog” in the fight and can approach questions without undue bias (unlike you, who have imbibed a great deal of Bosniak propaganda). I speak all the relevant languages and have spent years in the region. As stated, the ICTY considers me an expert witness (I have mostly worked to prosecute Serbs – you really should apologize if you have any decency).
I know Americans are short on decency, but really.
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You should apolgoze also for your overt racism, assuming I must be a Serb. Very ugly, exactly the sort of thing you accuse the Serbs of doing.
Of course you won’t …
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Time’s up – you’ve been pwned as the uninformed hypocrite and racist you are.
PS your blog is embarrassingly bad, almost impressively awful.
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Mencken,
Because of the anonymity of this type of forum why would it be racist or liable to ask who you are, from your only form of ID, your remarks.
It was asked if you were Serbian, not stated.
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1. “O.K., just who are you? You’re not Jelena Rasic who bribed witnesses in order to defend Serb murderers are you?” (Allegation of serious criminal misconduct, committed by a Serb.)
2. “Are you Serbian? Is that why you try to deny genocide.” (Speaks for itself).
Assuming I must be a Serb here, or asking if I was a criminal Serb, is a classic ethno-racist trick.
How would those sound if he asked if I was black or Jewish? You KNOW the answer.
Prejudice is prejudice.
Also: “You are just like the Holocaust-deniers.” — again, I never mentioned the Holocaust in any way, this is a serious slur.
He is an idiot and a racist who is filled with hatred for Serbs and who knows who else.
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“Time’s up – you’ve been pwned as the uninformed hypocrite and racist you are.”
O…..kay? I had a quick errand to do. It’s not like I don’t have a life.
“PS your blog is embarrassingly bad, almost impressively awful.”
Yeah, it’s kind of disorganized, but I’m new to blogging and my blog is about one month old.
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“You should apolgoze also for your overt racism, assuming I must be a Serb.”
I never stated you were Serb. I only asked since most people I’ve encountered who deny the Srebrenica genocide are Serb extremists.
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“I speak all the relevant languages and have spent years in the region.”
Ako ti pricas Srpski-Hrvatski onda kazi sto ovoje na Angliski:
Chetnici ubili malena djieci bis razloga.
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“FYI that I am not from the Balkans gives me an advantage.”
I also am not from the Balkans.
“(unlike you, who have imbibed a great deal of Bosniak propaganda)”
What makes you think you’re invulnerable from Serb propaganda, which I think you have imbibed a great deal.
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It seems as if mencken thinks just because he has visited the region that he is an “expert.” He is like white people who believe that they truly understand black people just because they have black friends and have spent time with blacks.
Perhaps I should have asked, “Are you Dutch?”
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You still have not translated the following sentences I asked for:
Ako ti pricas Srpski-Hrvatski onda kazi sto ovoje na Angliski:
Chetnici ubili malena djieci bis razloga.
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Good one. Spell it right first.
You never esatblished any bona fides, so TTFN.
You and your mom 🙂
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I am too civilized to insult or threaten you back. You cannot even translate a simple sentence into English for one who claims to be an”expert.”
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mencken has hardly addressed any of the issues I’ve brought up and has, instead, resorted to childish name-calling.
Why are you so emotional for one who claims to be “objective.”
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I could’ve sworm there were more comments.
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I deleted some commented both here and on the Emmett Till thread, where Mencken has been busily name-calling.
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“The Srebrenica Genocide, relatively unknown to most Westerners – well, at least to Americans – was the most atrocious mass killing since World War II when the Nazis tried to exterminate the Jews.”
No disrespect to the Bosnians, but I would probably attribute that to Rwanda.
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The worst genocide since Hitler in terms of numbers dead was in southern Sudan where 1.9 million died from 1983 to 2000:
Next after that comes Rwanda (800,000), then Darfur (300,000+) AND THEN Bosnia (200,000 Muslims dead).
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Those numbers don’t lie…but it’s still more jarring that those 800,000 (some say closer to a million) deaths happened in about 83 days, as opposed to 17 years. Jarring to me, anyway.
I’m a peacenik though, so even one murder is too many to me. Seems like the more I read, the less I understand the things we do to one another.
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“The worst genocide since Hitler in terms of numbers dead was in southern Sudan where 1.9 million died from 1983 to 2000.”
I actually meant to say the worst killing IN EUROPE, but forgot. I think it may have been to the 520 word limit. My bad.
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I corrected the post.
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You are, of course, a total coward.
Free speech for blacks, and fellow-travelers, only … of course.
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BTW get yout facts straight – ICRC numbers, endorsed by ICTY, are 100.000 dead for the Bosnian war of 1992-1995, for ALL sides. Approx 62.000 Muslims, half of them military dead.
So the “200.000 dead Muslims” number is as accurate as your Till squelchings.
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@ serpentus: We’ve had our negative moments, but I suspect we both believe in free speech. Blacks don’t, here’s your proof. Peace out, brother.
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@ Mencken:
Grow up. I have a comment policy. Read it.
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I be growed up, thanks, massa!
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@mencken
I support free speech but I do not support insulting people. Also, 100,000 is still tentative since mass graves are continually being discovered and thousands of people are still missing. I am not your brother.
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Suuuure ….
So now the ICRC and the ICTY are in on the Serbian Honky conspiracy, eh?
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Way to delete postings, HNIC!
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“He is an idiot and a racist who is filled with hatred for Serbs and who knows who else.”
I do not hate serbs. I hate the crime of genocide committed by the chetniks.
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Wow, I did not think anyone still used the word “honky”, but in any case it is now a moderated word.
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Lmao!!! These comments are hilarious. I’m loving the battle btwn Mencken & Serpentus.
We’ve had our negative moments, but I suspect we both believe in free speech. Blacks don’t, here’s your proof. Peace out, brother.
LOL!
@Hathor
Oh and thx 4 the music Hathor. It made for a great soundtrack while reading the comment section.
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@mencken: Typical for guys like you. I asked from the get go in which capacity you served and in which troops and you, of course, did not answer.
You just claimed that you were a peacekeeper there. Well, in which unit and when? Where?
You claimed that you testified in the Hague. When? For whom?
No answers. It looks pretty sure that you did not serve in Balkans as peacekeeper nor you ever did testify in the Hague. But that is typical when anonymity allows one make claims like that.
You came here to deny the Srebrenica massacre and used the same arguments as those who try to deny or plau down others like that all over the world. Be that Sudan, Rwanda, Holocaust or soviet gulags, there is always guys like you who, for some reason or other, try to deny what happened.
Unfortunately for you, tv-cameras were all over the Srebrenica, international media was there and the whole atrocity was recorded as it happened. To try to claim that you are an expert and therefore know that there was no massacre, is like someone would claim that he/she was at Hiroshima and knows that it never happened like everyone else is saying.
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Just ban this racist Menken already.
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@ Sam
I know i hate it when people claim superior knowledge of a topic just to win an argument, without DEMONSTRATING superior knowledge of a topic.
And then when you call them on it they just insult you.
mmm, childish.
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@Abagond
He’s a pest, and he’s not adding anything. Least of all a counterview. Even those HBD people like Schwartz and whoever actually had arguments if weak ones.
Its your blog obviously but I’m just saying.
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Anybody who uses the word “pwned” and “your mom” in a discussion such as this is just begging to not be taken seriously.
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LMAO. I agree, Mencken is a sand-kicker. Calling people names is not a “debate”, unless you are like six. God help us all if this is what Georgetown Law produces and what the Hague puts its faith in.
He knows I have a comment policy. If he can follow it, fine. But if I have to delete three more of his comments, then I am banning him. I cannot sit here 24/7 babysitting my blog because of people like him.
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@ Serpentus
Based off of what you I ran through a translator, I really don’t think Menken understood you. As if spelling mattered.
Thats why he quickly left the thread.
LMAO! “Yeah, and your mom(to whatever I think you just said)”
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@ abagond
I’m surprised he didn’t rebut with “Nyah, nyah, you’re a poop face!”
As if an online declaration of expertise is an airtight alibi.
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Mustafa Ceric, Grand Mustafi of Bosnia
That should be Grand Mufti.
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I am the only one who has put down concrete numbers, units, and dates, and no one has even tried to take me on about those.
All I hear is “genocide denier” over and over, nothing of substance. Name calling, that’s it.
My bona fides speak for themselves. I repeatedly asked serpentus to establish his, and there is nothing.
Difficult for me to respond when Abagond keeps deleting my posts.
As for my specific identity, like Abagond I desire anonimity. Suffice to say that I have served in Bosnia with both UNPROFOR and IFOR/SFOR, and in Kosovo with KFOR.
BTW since Agabond says 95% of whites are racist, why not just ban postings by whites altogether?
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Nobody is denying that US war in Irak cost some 250 000 civilians dead
I deny it. Those numbers are obvious propaganda. No one made a real count. On top of that, most of the civilians killed were killed by other civilians, not as a consequence of the war.
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Of course no one has an exact number, but if you don’t think many hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have died violently since OIF kicked off – and tens of thousands have been killed directly by US forces, many of them civilians – then you are delusional.
This is NOT “genocide” and in most cases really is just “collateral damage” to use the Pentagon-approved term, but to deny that the dead are … dead is immoral.
I served in Iraq twice in OIF and it was common knowledge that every time US forces got hit by an IED the whole convoy went full auto in every direction, even in crowded urban areas. On one occasion I witnessed – ie I was in the convoy – we took zero casualties, but there was no way we didn’t grease a couple dozen locals in response, including of course women, elderly, and kids.
And this thing happened every day for years, and if you’ve got the Iraq Campaign Medal too, you know it.
Turns out that almost 80% percent of captured insurgents we talked to (while in custody; no, we did not torture them) said they have joined the fight against us because they had lost a relative killed by US forces.
Speaks for itself.
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@mencken:
Ok, now we are getting into specifics. Since you served in Kosovo in KFOR just tell me which company/platoon and which area. We might know the same guys who served there! 😀 Just let me know when and in which comapany and I’ll check it out with my mates! 😀
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@ sam – Which part of “like Abagond I desire anonimity” is unclear?
Revealing a specific unit – since I have given a ton of bio data already – is tantamount to giving my name.
I’ll reveal mine when Abagond does the same. 🙂
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Also, since you obviously know little about the military, I am a rather senior officer, so I didn’t serve in a platoon or company … duh.
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@mencken:
What a busy boy you have been. I guess your expertise from Srebrenica comes from your military career: UNPROFOR 1992-95, IFOR 1995-96, SFOR 1996-98, 1998-2004, KFOR 1999-present. And from what I gather from your answers you also have served extensively in Irak?? Wow. A regular Rambo you must be.
I kind of wonder in what unit you served since during all this time US military was engaged elsewhere too and from what you say you seem to have served in US army. You imply that you served more or less a decade in Balkans but what we know from other sources, that did not happen nor it does happen even today in US military.
How many tours of duty you said you had in Balkans? In Irak? In Kosovo?? This is really getting interesting. You do know the policies of US military conserning the rotation of troops, their replacements etc.?? Verrry interesting indeed…
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@mencken: 😀 I have served in military, sir! 😀 In finnish army! So I’m not totally at lost here, sir! 😀 But some of my friends have served in some other armies as well… 😀
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@mencken: So you must be a major at least? A colonel?? This is getting more and more interesting all the time 😀
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When did I say all my time in the Balkans was in uniform?
When did I say I was on active duty all that time?
I suspect I know a great deal more about US military personel policies than you do.
🙂
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I was offline for a day and I missed this post (here and back at Serpentus).
I will write a longer reply, of course, but I just want to say here is that the Dutch didn’t really do anything. That is the whole point. They knew what was going to happen: Srebrenica was a revenge for the crimes Muslims did immediately before. And they did nothing to prevent it.
PS-As for Ratko Mladic, who knows. Some people claim he’s dead. All I know is that the current government would hand him over, if they knew where he was.
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Reading his posts, this Mencken character couldn’t have gotten anymore childish in his responses. It’s pretty obvious he’s a just game-playing poseur.
“Mencken
Good one. Spell it right first.
You never esatblished any bona fides, so TTFN.
You and your mom.”
“Mencken
Also, since you obviously know little about the military, I am a rather senior officer, so I didn’t serve in a platoon or company … duh.”
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@mencken
“I have given a ton of bio data already.”
I still have no clue who the heck you are.
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@ serpentus
He was all things to all people — a jack of all trades but a master at none
a fool who is now gone.
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Dear , , ,
The story of humanity’s inhumanity takes another tragically nostalgic turn. The primary difference is the indifference of the Dutch as personage of the UN. They stood around doing nothing but to truly understand the situation lets take a look at the rules of engagement or ROE.
Under the ROE, U.N. forces cannot carry out offensive operations without specific approval; must use die minimum force necessary; can use their weapons only as a last resort; cannot retaliate; and must cease fire when an opponent ceases fire. Thus, hostile forces (usually Bosnian Serbs in this case) can ratchet up their provocation to just under the threshold beyond which UNPROFOR can use force. It is also possible that they could draw U.N. forces into a vulnerable position and then attack them. The resulting military and political loss could be heavy, along the lines of Beirut in 1983 and Somalia in 1993.
The underlying problem is that the ROE, which might work in a true peacekeeping operation, are being used in a situation in which there is no peace. The U.N. forces were expected to operate in the Bosnian countryside, securing safe areas, protecting civilians, and monitoring the opposing forces (see the section on “Cordon and Search Operations”). Yet, the ROE do not allow the forces the means to carry out such operations effectively or at an acceptable level of risk.
Or in other words the UN mission was doomed to failure before it began.
Now, I’m going to get the on my high horse so feel free to stop reading. The essence of the problem is the unwillingness in the “liberal” western democracies to get their hands dirty. They are looking for a high minded and clean solution but war is a dirty business and if you want to stop slaughter you need to be prepared to get down in the mud and slug it out. I suspect it is a smug moral cowardice propagated by those who are unwilling to carry a rifle in the face of evil.
I think the obvious but not the only solution in the future is to call out the USMC and let them beat the piss out of the evil doers. Knowing that it will be costly in both terms of lives and treasure. It will be immoral, we will kill innocent people (not murder) but we can prevent the greater immorality of the wholesale slaughter of innocent civilians.
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“Under the ROE, U.N. forces cannot carry out offensive operations without specific approval; must use die minimum force necessary; can use their weapons only as a last resort; cannot retaliate; and must cease fire when an opponent ceases fire.”
You call that an army?!
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The Bosnians never wanted the world to fight their war for them. They only wanted to buy weapons to fight. However, they couldn’t because the West imposed an arms embargo.
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Srpentus, no, that is a UN peace KEEPING mission, handy in case you have two sides who both genuinely want peace, but do not trust eachother at all.
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I don’t believe in the U.N. The U.N. has always ended up in quagmire in every situation they’ve ever gotten involved in. I challenge someone to name just one success the U.N. has accomplished.
“handy in case you have two sides who both genuinely want peace”
But that’s the thing, one side didn’t want to have peace.
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@King
If only I didn’t know people in real life who do this.I’ve called out several of them.
When you do it though, they either back-peddle, or they say absolutely nothing.
I once had someone tell me New Orleans was discovered by the Spanish after I gave overwhelming evidence that the French discovered New Orleans. Now it was briefly under Spanish control but for most of it’s existence until the US bought it, it was a French/French speaking territory. Even the name New Orleans is named after the Duke of Orleans and Louisiana is named after King Louis IV . The same person who discovered Qubec discovered New Orleans. Easily verifiable facts that they refused to acknowledge.
When I finally presented irrefutable proof from an expert, in person no less. They just sat there quietly looking embarrassed/pissed. They seemed kind of mad at me too, even though I was EXTREMELY nice about telling them that they were wrong.
This is after they claimed to have expertise in history(laughably they haven’t even been to college, they actually dropped out three times and work a menial, low paying job). I never condescended to them or made them feel bad about it though, other than by being myself. They just acted that way on their own. Even when I suggested reading material to give them a better handle on the subject, the expert did too (he was a visiting professor that I consulting for research on another project) in a humorous friendly way, they didn’t take follow up on it, as far as I know.
I don’t bother arguing with said person anymore. Or even trying to discuss anything of interest or importance to me.
The weird thing is, this person is always trying to make conversation, even though I just ignore them. Maybe they’re trying to save face?
I don’t understand this bs tactic that people use. The two people I’m thinking of are obviously insecure for different weird reasons. I think they were both sexually abused as kids, and even though they are intelligent they both have learning disorders that make school difficult for them. And they’re both lazy and overly concerned with what people think. They want to be admired, so they tell lies. And they admit to telling lies but then when you call them on it, they swear that they always tell the truth.
It’s so annoying and people do it all the time. Mind you people that I have talked to that are experts usually don’t do this.
Anybody heard of Dunning Kruger affect? I didn’t think it was this prevalent, but if you think about the number of people who are severely ignorant about everyday facts
Good article about it in Psychology Today.
I don’t know how to hyperlink sorry.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolved-primate/201006/when-ignorance-begets-confidence-the-classic-dunning-kruger-effect
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@mira: presicely, the dutch did not do anything. The whole conflict was such a mess that UN should have been more disciplined and better lead there. Now it was a hodgepodge of different troops doing what ever they where doing where ever they where doing it. Or not doing anything like the dutch at Srebrenica.
@e-dub: I know several instances were weapons were used by finnish peacekeepers since the conflict in Cyprus 1960’s onwards. I’ve seen videos from my friends who were peacekeepers in Libanon using their guns against the extremists and israeli Army, not actually fighting them but making sure that if it comes to that, there will be a fight. I know that the guys from Fidzi did the same in Libanon. They were very much “respected” (feared) by all parties involved. Usually the otherside understands this and backs away from UN troops, at least this is how it used to be.
@serpentus: stamping out the small box, for one, keeping the Cyprus cool for few decades and thus avoiding open war between the greeks and the turks. This comes to mind. Also, the operation in East Timor went ok because the australian peacekeepers did their job well under the UN flag.
UN mission must be well defined and well lead. The problems rise from the fact that some countries try to use them as a tool for their own interests or as a fighting force to advance their agenda. That makes those operations failures, like in Bosnia. Too many cooks in the kitchen and too many spices on the pot. The same happened with the french in Libanon back in 80’s.
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Ok, I’m here now, and I can, maybe, answer some questions. It’s quite difficult for me though; this thing is so close to home, and I usually avoid that kind of subjects.
As far as I know, everybody’s quite pissed at the Dutch. But nobody can do anything about it. Still, nobody trusts UN and peace missions here anyway, so this kind of thing was expected, to say the least.
As for the genocide, I honestly don’t know much about Rwanda or what was going on in there, but this whole thing was different than the Hitler and the WWII Germany. You didn’t have one attacker that performed killings and genocide on the other ethnic groups; all groups involved in the ex-Yugoslavian conflict were both aggressors and victims. Like I said, I don’t know if that’s what was happening in Rwanda, but it’s definitely what had happened here.
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As for the western involvement in the whole thing, I don’t think we’ll even know what was really going on. All I know is that there was a heavy western involvement (even to the point of encouragement) in the war(s), but then again maybe it’s anger and desperation speaking from me.
You don’t really know what was like before the war. Most of the people didn’t saw it happen, even 5 years prior to it. Even during the war in Croatia, people in Bosnia believed “it can’t happen to us here”.
But I guess hate is very easy to build.
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UN is an undemocratic organization. the security council has 5 permanent members, 3 of them strong ex-colonial powers that ravaged the world. They choose the temporary members(those who are ready to play along) and decide the fate of other countries. By what virtue do these permanent members have permanent membership?
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By what virtue do these permanent members have permanent membership?
They pay the bills. They started the club. The other countries are free to start their own club with themselves as “permanent members”, but then they won’t have the USA to pay their bills. On a regional level there are smaller clubs like OPEC, OAS, EU and a few others. they are for the most part inconsequential.
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Wow, I hate it when a potentially interesting comment thread turns into a pissing contest.
Wish you’d showed up earlier, Mira!
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Me too, but I was off the Internet for a day.
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Abagond:
Great Post!
In my opinion, genocide is comparable to “The Missing White Female” syndrome that is prevalent in mainstream US media. If the victims are white, regardless of national origin, the media gives more attention to the problem. All of us as black people know the routine by now, but knowing the ugly truth doesn’t make swallowing a bitter pill less painful. Abagond, none of this crap makes any sense.
1. US oil and gas companies can’t drill in the US, instead, we have to import at least 25% of our oil from the middle-east and north africa, which pays for radical islamic groups such as Al Qaeda and Al-Shabab in Somalia.
2. Europe imports a large chunk of it’s earth resources into the continent from Africa, and at the same time, european nations in the UN couldn’t find the time to send military forces into Rwanda and Sudan to stop self-hating blackmen from killing their own people, but they found the time and money to invade Libya for oil and gas and save white arabs, Irony!
3. Why is Europe and the US neglecting human-rights in Africa? Africa has every kind of earth resource known to man, as well as the bedrock of human civilization…Black People. And yet, the powers-that-be in the world are trying to save desert nations in the middle-east, Illogical
Tyrone
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Tyrone,
So, are you saying the Balkan war(s) got more attention because white people were killed? I am not quite sure that the westerners saw Balkan people as “one of us”. No way. All the classical symptoms of othering were there, including displaying dead bodies and all. But the Balkan is a special case of “Other”, that is closest to Oriental other, but not quite. They see people in Balkans as being half way between us and them; it’s a special “bridge” position to be in. But no, they don’t see Balkans as “one of us”.
On the other hand, it DID happen in Europe. And for some reason, people do think things are more horrible when they happen in Europe.
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“So, are you saying the Balkan war(s) got more attention because white people were killed? I am not quite sure that the westerners saw Balkan people as ‘one of us’.”
Yes, it could be that they got more attention because they were white.
During the Cold War, any country that declared itself communistic was immediately stamped by America as an enemy of America. So, Americans probably thought,”Hey, look, commies killing commies.”
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Balkan region is not seen as “commies”, at least not today. It has a long history of othering. I don’t know about the US (where race is the first thing that counts), but in Western Europe, Balkan is never seen as “one of us”. Never. It’s seen as a border to the East, at best. But Balkan people think of themselves as the heart of Europe. It’s very, very complicated.
But I can assure you nobody here thinks, or feels that westerners see them as “one of their own”, quite the contrary. Nor anybody see them as such. Despite the skin colour.
On the other hand, when it’s happening in Europe, it sure seems more extreme than when it’s happening on other places.
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“But I can assure you nobody here thinks, or feels that westerners see them as ‘one of their own’, quite the contrary. Nor anybody see them as such. Despite the skin colour.”
Wait a minute. The Balkan people don’t see westerners as one of their own? Why?
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The West believes that Greece is the cradle of Western Civilization. Greece is in the Balkans. Therefore, westerners must see the Balkan people as “one of our own.”
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Mira
Is this what people are really like in the Balkans?
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@ Mira. I remember seeing a sign held by someone in one of the Balkan countries that asked: “Aren’t we white, too?” But I can assure you nobody here thinks, or feels that westerners see them as “one of their own”, quite the contrary. Nor anybody see them as such. Despite the skin colour. >
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@Serpentus,
Greece is not considered a Balkan country. Furthermore, the only reason Greece is considered “white” is because it founded a great civilization that cannot be dismissed, as it set the foundations for western society. Had Greece not done so, the “whiteness” of its people would’ve been in jeopardy.
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“Greece is not considered a Balkan country.”
Why not? By whom?
“The only reason Greece is considered “white” is because it founded a great civilization.”
Then the Incas, Mayas, Egyptians, and Aztecs would be considered “white” since they also built great civilizations.
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Mira,
yep, that’s pretty much the way it is
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Dear Everyone,
Do you really want a bunch of Europeans policing the continent of Africa bringing them civilization? Last time, I checked, it didn’t work out to good.
And for the people trying to save the dessert nations not a chance. The US, France and UK are turning a rather deliberate blind eye to those who have been on our side (Yemen) and not such a blind eye to those who have been a pain in the but or have nothing to offer Libya.
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Serpentus,
Wait a minute. The Balkan people don’t see westerners as one of their own? Why?
Eh. It’s complicated. It’s not that Balkan people don’t see westerners as one of their own entirely, but it’s… igh, complicated. Well, some countries have a strong connection to the west, and see themselves as part of the west, I guess (not sure if west see them as one of their own): Croatians and Romanians, for example.
But majority of the Balkan people are not western in religion, so it’s one major thing. There just don’t seem to be enough cultural or ethnic connections. Most of the Balkan peoples are Slavs. Westerners aren’t Slavs, and were often very explicit about stating Slavs are not “one of their own”. Also, most of the Balkans was under socialism. And while Yugoslavia was never under the Russian type of socialism, I am not sure if west can see the difference. Not to mention, in many Balkan countries (mine, for example), westerners are seen as enemies.
However, not seeing westerners as “one of our own” doesn’t mean not accepting Europe as a concept as one of our own. Like I said, Balkan sees itself as a heart of Europe. Being a western European is sure not seen as the only way to be European.
Of course, thinking westerners are not one of our own also means we think we’re much better than the westerners. It’s how othering go.
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Serpentus,
The West believes that Greece is the cradle of Western Civilization. Greece is in the Balkans. Therefore, westerners must see the Balkan people as “one of our own.”
Greece is not seen as part of the Balkans. No way. Greece is always seen differently, because westerners see Ancient Greece as part of their cultural legacy.
Some western Europeans even went as far as claiming Ancient Greek cultural heritage their own, and not Greek (meaning, westerners- especially ones in the 19th century) saw THEMSELVES, and not Greeks, as true descendants of Ancient Greeks. (I guess actual Greek peasants were considered too darkish and “uncivilized” to be descendants of Ancient Greece).
See the Elgin marbles controversy as a telling example of it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elgin_Marbles
As for the Greeks themselves, they have two major points of self-identification: Ancient Greece and Byzantium. Both are extremely important and they see both as Greek first, everything else second. Which means they hate, hate, HATWE when westerners appropriate Ancient Greece as the cradle of European civilization.
Mel,
Mira. I remember seeing a sign held by someone in one of the Balkan countries that asked: “Aren’t we white, too?”
That is interesting. I sure don’t think west treats us as whites in the full sense of the word, that’s for sure, nor that it sees us as “real people” (in Abagond’s sense of the word). But the sign is interesting because of another aspect: what does it mean to be white for a person on Balkans? We don’t really think much of it (we’re all whites, our main friends are whites, our main enemies are whites), but still… Does that mean that we expect to be “treated as whites” because we’re, well, white?
On the other hand, Greeks are seen as darker and not worthy of western ideal. However, they are seen as white in Europe.
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Serpentus,
Unfortunately, I can’t watch the video right now. I think I’ve heard about this documentary, though.
What is video about? (And what did you mean by: “is this what people are really like in the Balkans?)
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Mira
Have you tried watching the video on my blog?
Here’s the link:
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O.K. I’m sorry. I keep pasting the link, but the video keeps showing up.
Just go to youtube and search for “Trailer of ‘My Name Is…Sarajevo’.” You’ll easily find it.
“What is video about?”
It’s supposedly about correcting the misconceptions and stereotypes that westerners have about Bosnia. This is just the trailer. I don’t know where to find the actual documentary.
(And what did you mean by: “is this what people are really like in the Balkans?)”
Sorry to say this, but I had my stereotypes about Balkan people as being sad, poor, and disenchanted. The trailer shows the total oppposite of that. The people there are so happy and smiling. I’m wondering if it wasn’t staged. I find it hard to believe that someone can be that happy and upbeat in the Balkans. Sorry, that’s just a stereotype I had about Balkan people.
“
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The video is working; I don’t have speakers on this computer, that’s all.
Sorry to say this, but I had my stereotypes about Balkan people as being sad, poor, and disenchanted.
Well, that’s how we’re often portrayed. But domestically, we often portray ourselves as way too into partying (and not thinking about tomorrow), drinking, having fun despite the bad things (and constant lack of money). The truth is in the middle- there are pessimists and there are optimists, as anywhere. Most of the people are poor, though- but most of us are kind of used to it (and that often doesn’t prevent anybody from enjoying life and be happy… with constant whining about not having money, of course).
The culture imperative, I’d say, is to have as much free/fun time as you can. It depends on the culture (not all Balkan cultures are the same, especially ones that were not part of Yugoslavia), but the emphasis is on the fun (as the opposite of work). Once again, it’s the stereotype, but stereotypes that people create about themselves are telling. In my culture, for example, rich night life is a very important imperative.
Basically, nobody has money, but it’s kind of a normal state of things. As people say, money isn’t a problem- there is no money.
Stereotypes you mentioned are interesting. I had no idea it’s how Balkan people are portrayed. If nothing else, I thought they were seen as “happy fools”. You know, the stereotype about poor people who are somehow happy about it, who drink a lot and don’t think about tomorrow. Lazy at work, but boy, they can dance and drink and have fun. That sort of stereotypes. If nothing else, that’s sort of stereotypes people here build of themselves.
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Mira
Who are the Montenegrins, as in who are they ethnically? Are they Serbs? Croats? Bosniaks? Albanians? If they were really Serbs, then why did they secede? The Balkans can be pretty hard to understand.
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Montenegrians are… Montenegrians. Half of them believe it’s basically the same as Serbs. Half of them believe it isn’t. The religion is the same. The language is the same (though they try to proclaim it as a different language- but like I said back at your site, like it or not (and most people don’t like it), Serbs, Croats, Bosniaks and Montenegrians speak the same language (Serbo-Croatian).
It’s all due to the fact medieval states (that weren’t states in today’s sense of the word, but heck, I can’t remember the word at the moment grrrr ) didn’t progress, historically, to modern countries because of the foreign intervention. There were Turks for about 500 years, and Austro-Hungarian Monarchy in the west. They assimilated the medieval countries and feuds. What is today’s Montenegro was a small state surrounded by mountains and the sea, and it had an autonomy during the Ottoman rule, because Turks (and others) couldn’t really conquer it because of the terrain. So it kind of remained a separate entity.
There were various ruling dynasties in it during the Middle Ages, and most of them were what is considered Serbian dynasty today (same goes for Bosnia). But (and this is something people here fail to understand) you can’t really say a dynasty was “Serbian”. The idea of a nation, or even ethnicity in the full, modern sense of the word didn’t exist back then.
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Thanks for the detailed explanation. That clears up a lot.
I guess it could be compared to Wales and the United Kingdom.
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Hmmm… Not sure what you mean. Welsh people are certainly not English. Or are you referring to the geography? I am not sure about the Wales, but Montenegro is sure difficult to approach.
Which also makes train scenes in “Casino Royale” hihgly laughable, to say the least.
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@mira: I guess looking from the states Europe seems to be one chunck of earth, looking from the outside in the internal tensions and old grudges dissappear pretty fast. Also the internal tensions in different countries of Europe get lost easily. Just check the last election of Finland.
Nobody was expecting it and yet, it has been brewing here for at least a decade when the right wing conservative goverments (with the assistance of social democrats) have been chipping away the wellfare state and benefits in the name of the free markets.
And now, finally, the middle class started to feel the pressure and became unsecure and voted for xenophobic nationalistic party. And yes, it has happened elsewhere in Europe since 1933. 😀 And it will happen as long as the politicians toe the line of the Big money.
Just look at the Tea party! Yes, they look nutty and sound too, but so did the Trues Finns just couple years ago.
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Yes sam. You can also look at Belgium. Uncontested world champion as a country without government for more than 300 days. The financial crisis, caused by a bunch of brain-damaged psychopaths, has sparked some serious mud slinging across the rift that has never been deeper before between Flamands and Wallons.
Those are welcome opportunities for right wingers and their divisive agenda.
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Really, Tyrone? The Sudanese have no reason to be jealous of the US-NATO attention (bombardment, impending invasion and exploitation of the resources, that is) Libya is getting.
There is good chance that Sudan will get the Libya treatment within a few years. Conveniently, the oil rich Darfur is in the middle of a crisis, so “the United States is critical of Sudan’s human rights record and has sent a strong UN Peacekeeping force to Darfur”, as wiki puts it. The United States tried to topple the government in Sudan before and is quite likely to do so in the near future. One war per presidential term – isn’t that the going rate?
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@ Tyrone
Taking armed forces into ex-colonies is a touchy subject for the ex-colonialists who have the means but are split within their own population, including expats from the former colonies. The motivation for resistance to send troops is less about “let’s leave black Africans on their own”. It’s about the fact most people, especially in the African nations, don’t want any more neo-colonialism than there already is, especially if it comes in military uniforms.
I’d be the first to oppose if Cameroon, the home country of my grandmother and part of my family who live there, was invaded by French troops, not to mention British or US.
Where do you think Italy’s opposition to military strikes on Libya is coming from? It’s their former colony and it took them decades to establish a somewhat stable diplomatic relationship. Italy gets virtually all of its oil from Libya…
The reality is that most of the African leaders who were backed by ex-colonialists turned out to be dictators at some point until the next potential dictator is put into power. Helping to put someone into power with armed forces is a kick in the teeth of democracy itself.
If you go into a crisis zone and half of the population welcome you but the other half see you as “backing the traitors”, you’ll inevitably incite even more hatred and escalation between the opposing groups. There’s always that crucial question – who’s right and who’s wrong? How to assess the true problems from a distance?
Letting diplomacy fail is not an option.
Btw, the French were actually the first to recognise that a genocide was in progress in Rwanda and the only ones who at least somewhat curbed further genocide, on missions the US and the UN refused to participate in. Also it was mainly on US pressure that UN forces pulled out. US officials even denied the fact that a genocide was happening after thousands were already killed. Dallaire who was on the ground and who was informed of a possible mass murder plot before the massacres even began was ordered by the UN HQ to do exactly nothing.
Despite obvious failures in the beginning of the crisis and before, France was actually the only country to maintain any help at all in limiting the blood shed. Everybody is aware that more should have been done and the quota on selling weapons to Rwanda should have been respected. That’s the bottom line.
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Funny how people claim that there is proof that the Srebrenica massacre did happen just because the judges at the court at Den Haag decided that it happened. The victor writes history and the ICTY was set up by the victors (NATO) but officially as a UN institution. Later this court was given other assignments aswell to make it look like it didn’t serve merely to justify Western involvement.
It is also funny that mainstream media still write about this massacre with a one-sided view, without going into any details, also merely trusting the convictions by the ICTY to be the “holy truth”, whereas several researchers and people involved in the investigations have made claims which have raised serious doubt about the accuracy of the allegations made.
People faild to realise that the battle for Srebrenica was one of the largest battles in the Bosnian war. Soldiers die in battle, u can’t expect their enemy to bury them in individual graves. Certainly civilians were slaughtered aswell. On all sides and by all sides. Look up the latest estimates of people killed and most importantly look at the shares of each etnic group and the division beween military and civilian casualties. If u see this, then ask yourself why is only this one particular case being shown in the media over and over again? Perhaps because the Srebrenica massacre was used as justification for Western involved to support one side in a war were all sides were equally guilty?
If you won’t admit that maybe you are wrong, at least admit that you really cannot possibly know what really happened over there.
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There are enough reports about other mass graves to be found if u look for them, but they never got any attention. Who would still care about the Bosnians if their newspaper or tv would show footage of Bosnians killing Serbs?
And for those who trust the ICTY’s judgement blindly, I have some bad news. Serbia was acquitted from genocide, but it was stated that Milosevic was guilty of being aware of genocide going on and not doing anything to prevent it … that’s a farcry from his 1999 nickname of “butcher of the balkans”
Genocide is the intent to destroy a specific etnic group. Separating 16+ males from woman, children and elderly people and killing the combat capable males only, is not etnic cleansing. Children form the next generation of any etnic group, letting them live would be weird if u would want to exterminate an etnic group. The nazis did kill jewish children, because they actually intended to destroy an etnic group.
“the evidence did not show that these terrible acts were accompanied by the specific intent to destroy a group that is the required proof of genocide”
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When you look only for proof that Srebrenica did happen, you will find only that, because it was in all mainstream media. The proof is however superficial or consists only of the words: “It has been proven by the ICTY investigators” or “person X has been convicted for genocide by the ICTY.”
On the other hand when u look for proof that questions the reality of Srebrenica you will find both the piece that do not doubt ICTY judgement at all, and pieces that actually do question their correctness with references to official documents by a.o. the ICTY and UNCHR, which can be checked.
Do some actual research and dont just look for things u want to find. Read all of the articles without bias (if that is possible). Some of it might be propaganda, but then again how certain are you that anything you see on TV is not propaganda, how certain are you even that the judges at the ICTY are completely unbiased, or that even if the judges themselves are unbiased, the evidence and witnesses they rely on are not manipulated in some way, by people who would want a specific outcome for a trail?
The video images of the trials are broadcasted with a 15 minute delay, I mean what’s the point of that?
I’ve actually spend 10 years of reading about this matter, and I decided that I cannot really know, but am a little disturbed by the fact that some people follow ICTY rulings blindly. In fact I’ve even noticed that no matter what you tell these people and no matter what proof you refer to, they will not believe you until either their TV or the ICTY tells them differently. I’ve actually had cases of people apologising to me after an official “expert” or a TV documentary told them the same thing I tried to tell them …
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Also remember how the video about six 16 year old being shot by a paramilitary unit made up of released criminals was seen as absolute proof that 7000 bosniaks were killed bosnian serb regular mlitary in cold blood? I really couldn’t believe people’s reactions at the time … How’s a video showing 6 people being killed proof for an alledged murder of 7000 people?
There’s no actual footage of the murder of 7000 men at Srebrenica. There people in this thread who have claimed differently, who said it was all over the news.
But try to recall, what exactly was in the news? They showed bodies. Those bodies did not show whether they were soldiers, they did not show whether they were killed in battle or in cold blood.
Moreover u have never seen 7000 bodies in one shot. And u most certainly have not seen the actual act of killing those 7000.
It could be true that 7000 men were killed in cold blood, but it could also not be true. Also has no-one ever wondered, why only men? Soldiers are mostly men. So they could be 7000 soldiers. They might have been killed in cold blood. But they also might have died at the Battle for Srebrenica, in which the Serbs were winning, but the stubborn Bosniak commander Naser Oric refused to accept defeat for too long and kept sending his troops to certain death? Or perhaps it was something in between?
Also as for the witnesses: give a poor Bosniak or Serb 500 euros and they’ll tell you anything you wanna hear. Testimonials make up a large share of ICTY proof …
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@ivan: yeah, right. And all those mass graves here and there were nothing, all those bodies all around in the hills and forests were nothing, and those tv shots of men being escorted en masse away by the serbian forces was nothing, all those men and boys who were filmed and just dissapeared was nothing…
I guess that Auschwitz is nothing too…
The thing is, nobody is saying that the bosniaks did not commit war crimes, they did. It has been proved. But so is Srebrenica massacre. To claim it hasn’t been is pretty funny.
No, you do not have a pictures of 7000 men and boys at one place dead. No, you do not have pictures or images of their deaths. But you have the bodies and the dissapeared in and around Srebrenica after they were taken away by the serbian forces.
You do not have millions of Stalins victims in the same picture either, but you have the mass graves and the lost ones who were sent to the gulag. You do not have one picture of the millions who were killed by the nazis, but you have the mass graves and owens, piles of teeth, hair, and in the case of the germans, the records. Their own.
I understand that it is not a nice thing, this Srebrenica massacre, but it did happen in reality. Not because some judges in Hague made it up. There were bodies and such, you see. Not in the Hague but at Srebrenica and its environs.
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“Perhaps because the Srebrenica massacre was used as justification for Western involved to support one side in a war were all sides were equally guilty?”
The Serbs committed at least 90% of the ethnic cleansings and war crimes in Bosnia and Hercegovina according to the CIA:
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Western governments, news media, and the U.N. War Crimes Tribunal in The Hague have assiduously misled the public about the nature of the massacre. The International Commission for Missing Persons, also known as ICMP, is systematically deluding the public about the true reach of DNA technology in order to foster the illusion that its laboratories hold the key to the solution of the Srebrenica enigma. On the 16th anniversary of the Srebrenica massacre this year ICMP claimed that it has “closed 5,564 cases of Srebrenica victims” and that “only about 1,500 remain to be resolved.” However, that announcement is completely at odds with science. By calling persons that it has allegedly identified by using DNA techniques “Srebrenica victims” ICMP is taking a clear position that they were in fact executed prisoners (victims, rather than legitimate combat casualties) and also that their deaths are related to Srebrenica events of July of 1995. Both suggestions are false. DNA technology serves only to identify mortal remains or reassociate disarticulated parts of the same body, but it has absolutely nothing to say about the manner or time of death. ICMP has no means to differentiate “victims,” i.e. executed prisoners, from persons who perished in combat and whose death therefore is not a war crime. ……… http://www.srebrenica-report.com/ Internationally respected military forensic specialist Dr Zoran Stankovic, who reviewed the findings of the six experts employed by the Tribunal wrote that the effort lacked standard procedures, several of experts also lacked familiarity with wounds inflicted by military ordinance and some parts of the reports are “contrary to the generally acceptable forensic standards”. According to Dr Stankovic, many of the bodies exhumed from 17 gravesites were found in an advance state of decay “skeletonized, disarticulated and decomposed” lacking soft tissue and body parts that could help determine the cause of death. “Ascertainment of the cause of death in the cases of decomposed bodies is generally extremely difficult and in most case impossible…It is not allowed that [ICTY] experts provide their opinion in that regard and put forward the assumption having no grounds in autopsy findings.”Between 200 and 300 blindfolds and ligatures were exhumed with bodies by the ICTY, and as Dr. Stankovic notes, these are sure signs of execution.http://www.balkanstudies.org/articles/dna-testing-and-srebrenica-lobby http://europenews.dk/en/node/10656
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mencken you are bi big lier learn more over internet but true is there in the un office- new york un- united nothing
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[…] https://abagond.wordpress.com/2011/04/19/the-genocide-in-srebrenica/ […]
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All of the land is rightfully Serbian anyway. They had the right to to as the please with undesirables.
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“The UN is a waste of time and money, as it relates to protecting the innocent on this planet.”
There’s a growing number of people around the planet who see the UN as an aggressive arm of the West. Even the “watchdog” agencies have become agents of propaganda. Very cynical times we live in.
Here are several interesting doc’s on the subject of Bosnia
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tS5Sbz5pG4g)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUuhSGnLvv8)
The last one is particularly disturbing with evidence that the US was hoping for a big body count so it would have justification in doing an invasion. It is a matter of public record the US and EU intended to bring the former soviet bloc satellites in the EU, and this is how it began.
As for the Bosnian girl on the poster, she looks Serbian to me. We are darker than Bosniaks (Muslims) who converted early on to Islam to appease the Turks and never got raped for centuries the way we did. They are biologically more Slavic than we are. .
Some classic spin in that war: “Seventy-five percent of Bosnia occupied by Serbs!” headlines declared, implying invasion. They forgot to mention Serbs had been occupying 75% of Bosnia for 1500 years, and yes, the fifty Serbian villages surrounding Sarajevo were preyed upon sadistically for several years before they began fighting back.
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