White women seem more beautiful than they are. Even though beauty is in the eye of the beholder, many things point to a shift among beholders worldwide towards an idea of female beauty that is light-skinned, thin and more European looking.
That shift goes hand-in-hand with Westernization. East Asia and Black America are good examples:
East Asia: Double eyelid surgery has spread hand-in-hand with Westernization. So has a Eurasian idea of beauty. But not women lightening their skin: that goes back to the old days when only the well-to-do did not have to work in the fields.
Black America:
- Hair: Black women had little desire to straighten their hair till they came to America – it certainly was not common in the West Africa that most of them came from. Instead it came from copying blacks in the 1800s who were better off. These better-off blacks had generally straighter hair for the same reason that they were better off: they had white blood relations.
- Body shape: Black women who go to white universities favour a thinner sort of beauty than those who go to black universities.
- Skin colour: Light-skinned women are generally considered to be better looking. The same is true in the cities of West Africa, yet far from the cities where people are less Westernized, skin colour seems to matter much less.
These changes make white women seem better looking than they would otherwise be.
Some of the beauty of white women is natural but some of it comes from looking at them through the white lens of Westernization.
People of colour apply that white lens to themselves too: it is what makes some think their their hair is not pretty, their nose is too wide, their skin too dark, their lips too big, their eyes all wrong or whatever it is that sets them apart from white people.
The power of white people to shape the world’s ideas of female beauty is clearly shown in the death of the hourglass figure.
In the 1960s Playboy models and Hollywood beauties had hourglass figures. Think of Raquel Welch, Brigitte Bardot or Sophia Loren. Then in 1967 came Twiggy. Back then even white people thought she was too thin and dangerously underfed. But fashion designers loved her: it was so much easier to design great-looking clothes for her kind of body. So the fashion industry shifted towards rail-thin models.
By the late 1970s anorexia appeared among White American girls. By 1979 Hollywood could call Bo Derek a “10” despite her lack of what used to be called a full figure. In America even Playboy rarely shows women with an hourglass figure anymore.
So now thin is considered beautiful among whites generally in both Europe and North America. It is spreading to East Asia and seems to be spreading to Black America too. Anorexia has reached even Nigeria. All this has taken place within living memory.
See also:
It’s a little of both: some white women I work with are pretty, some are beautiful and other’s are stunning. But not all of them, like any group of people, are on the same level of beauty.
US wants to tell us there is only ONE type of beauty yet with so many of us here, they know we won’t alway’s believe it. So they force it upon us daily to reinforce it. As the saying goes, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and the ones who “beholden -the – money” is making sure we hear what they are saying!
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And abagond, I just noticed your “visitor locator” on the right: wow! so many people visit your page!
I think that is so awesome! Keep up the good work Abagond.
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Society makes them so. Living in The States, you can run into what I call the Stepford Wife Syndrome. You’ll see practically the same types of females (almost identical) everyday, with a sprinkle of POC females spread out. Yeah, there are plenty of white women I find attractive, but there are also plenty of POC’s I’d like to see as well, and I usually prefer the latter while getting radical with it due to the saturation of white beauty.
Somehow, this reminds me of that Korean Air commercial, where it’s all white people, specifically highlighting the white woman w/ hair blowing in the wind and “legs’ gracing the screen, only to include actual Koreans at the end as stewardesses (who were actually cute)…talk about blatant!
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Some are. And some are completely not. Most are of average appearance. Just like every other group of women.
I don’t personally tend to think white women are more beautiful. They also weren’t the “ideal” where I’m from.
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Somehow, this reminds me of that Korean Air commercial, where it’s all white people, specifically highlighting the white woman w/ hair blowing in the wind and “legs’ gracing the screen, only to include actual Koreans at the end as stewardesses (who were actually cute)…talk about blatant!
Well, you have to take it in from a business perspective: Maybe most of their travelers (ie: Money spenders) are white. So they will try to appeal to them.
If they were smart, they would also try venturing out but, again, they are looking at the money.Most of the US is white (about 70%). That doesn’t mean the full 70 has money but there’s a higher chance that 70 will spend money over the remaining 30 (everyone else).
And I’m not forgiving them for leaving out the rest of the west: just taking things in from a business perspective. Capital likes demographics.
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eeehhh… I won’t get caught on this one again. I think I said enuff what I know about the backround of the Thin is In ideology among fashion world. 😀
But I do like Sophia Loren! I like women who look like women, black or white or brown or yellow or what ever. More than any particular body type, I’m attracted to women who are ok with themselves. That is the most important thing.
It is very clear that the media is pushing the White is Right thing, sometimes more overtly, sometimes more hidden ways. I wonder how long they can do so, since more and more the audience is mixed.
Maybe it is slowly changing, in the movies etc.?
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We can say it this way: The most beautiful 10% of white women are more beautiful than the most beautiful 10% of black women.
It has to do with testosterone levels.
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Makeup does wonders.
If women just had washed faces, ideas of beauty would be different.
I think darker women have more beautiful faces, because their color naturally produces shadows and contours that make up is used to do.
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“We can say it this way: The most beautiful 10% of white women are more beautiful than the most beautiful 10% of black women.”
I love when people start assigning actual percentages to things that couldn’t possible know. It’s the science of “anecdotology”
What are white penis size percentages? And how did you find out?
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Y’all seem like a cool bunch, so I’ll be confessionary and honest:
I realize that I tend to be attracted to light skinned black women at a higher rate than I am to non-lightskinned black women.
But here’s the thing – the vast majority of white women I see are not attractive to me in the least. They’re just not pretty to me as often. Their light skin and straight hair and thin lips and noses do zilch for me, frequently.
By what you’re saying above, it should be a continuum, where the women who posess the “whitest” features should be the most prized, but it’s not that way for me and I suspect many many MANY black men are probably on the same page as I am.
My suspicion is that what we see with the idealization of lighter black women is really the idealization of women who are more racially mixed.
We see this again and again with cultures who have “mixed” looks: Ethiopian women, Dominican and Brazilian women, Mediterranean women, Phillipinas, Bajan and Trini women, etc.
We don’t tend to think of it that way here in the US, because most of the mixing that happened in the United States was black with white (honestly, I don’t even really think that many black folks have that much Indian blood in them, at this point, be we have tons of white blood.)
I’m not saying a purebread Nordic princess of superior aplomb will be fronted on – she won’t. But the simple fact of a Caucasian women having straight hair and small lips isn’t really rocking most black men’s worlds like that.
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“US wants to tell us there is only ONE type of beauty yet with so many of us here, they know we won’t alway’s believe it. So they force it upon us daily to reinforce it. As the saying goes, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and the ones who “beholden -the – money” is making sure we hear what they are saying!”
well…said….beauty is just something that is relative to personal preference,which are shaped mostly due to conditioning and brainwashing…we’re. it’s hard to be in the western world and not be brainwashed w/ this white ideal.
Chuck said…
“We can say it this way: The most beautiful 10% of white women are more beautiful than the most beautiful 10% of black women.
It has to do with testosterone levels.”
Chuck…that’s your opinion. Although I can tell you right now bw testosterone level are no higher than the average female of any race. If it were then bw wouldn’t menstruate or be able to reproduce children…duh.
However, your opinion is your opinion. However you form it and regardless of how brainwashed you may be that is your opinion….so if you think ww are more beautiful…good for you…go and get one 🙂
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CDF I agree about lots of white women trying to do the stepford thing. I find the overwhelming number of dyed blondes I see among white women, especially young ones, really troubling. Some, if they already have lightish brown or reddish hair look fine with the dye blonde but so many of them just look horrible, especially if their real hair is really dark, and it just doesn’t match their skin tone. They look so much prettier with their own hair color but b/c of society they think blonde is best and I’ve seen terribly plain to (imho) unattractive white women who b/c of blondeness (natural or otherwise) be raved about as great beauties.
It is a little imilar but not to the same degree as black women and our hair and obviously being naturally brunette isn’t going to cost a white woman a job and subject to ridicule by some in her community but more and more it seems like every white woman wants to be blonde and it is more and more prevalent.
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“Hair: Black women had little desire to straighten their hair till they came to America – it certainly was not common in the West Africa that most of them came from. Instead it came from copying blacks in the 1800s who were better off. These better-off blacks had generally straighter hair for the same reason that they were better off: they had white blood relations.”
Ummm … maybe if people just got off the case of and stopped obsessing over these “better-off blacks” with “straighter hair”, there wouldn’t be so many bad feelings over physical appearance. Asians may appreciate the beauty of Eurasians (as do most other groups) but they don’t seem to feel great jealousy and resentment towards them at the same time as expecting Eurasians to take care of them.
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Hathor said:
“If women just had washed faces, ideas of beauty would be different.
I think darker women have more beautiful faces, because their color naturally produces shadows and contours that make up is used to do.”
that is another thing, people forget that money can buy good looks and since on average white women are more economically stable than bw that already gives them an advantage in the beauty hierarchy…
It’s easy to be goodlooking or think of yourself as good looking when
a.) the majority of the women on tv look like you and the world tells you constantly how beautiful you are
b.) you have money to afford good,nutritious food (that doesn’t make you fat), you can workout and afford a gym membership or trainer or just jog through your neighborhood w/out fear of being mugged or hitting a pothole.
c.) you can afford makeup/nice clothes
d.) you can go to mostly any store and find makeup that caters to your complexion…whereas most bw and women of color have to go to special makeup places for that…
so money does buy good looks that is absolutely true…
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“I’ve seen terribly plain to (imho) unattractive white women who b/c of blondeness (natural or otherwise) be raved about as great beauties.”
*cough cough* Elin…
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Once again Abagond displays his child-like racism in which he attributes the blame for the shortcomings of his own, self-defined group to despised others (really anyone a few shades lighter than Whoopi Goldberg).
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Elin was okay looking, perhaps she was “cute” at times but people went WAY overboard w/ calling her gorgeous and incredible looking…come on there are better looking blond women and better looking women in general
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Ethiopian women, Dominican and Brazilian women, Mediterranean women, Phillipinas, Bajan and Trini women, etc.
most Ethiopian women look black, I am in an area where there are alot of Ethiopians and…uh they look black. I don’t know where people get the idea that Ethiopias look more “mixed’ than any other ethnicity in africa…yeah some do, but they are the minority and also Ethiopians have a wide array of looks, the Ethiopians in the South and North etc…can look quite different, but still black get it?
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peanut:
That’s my opinion huh? Here are three citations I quickly found on race and testosterone. It is common knowledge that blacks have higher testosterone levels than whites; this applies to women as well. In one study, older black women were found to have 51% higher levels of free testosterone in their blood than white women.
And it is stupid to say that if black women had higher testosterone then they wouldn’t be able to menstruate or reproduce. Do you think that every single woman who has given birth has the exact same testosterone level? Some are higher than others, but differences can still exist while allowing for births.
Men generally find more feminine women to be attractive. Do you reject that claim? If you don’t, then the fact that black women have more testosterone than white women implies that black women are generally less attractive to men.
http://books.google.com/books?id=6ZkzYk97BREC&pg=PA35&lpg=PA35&dq=black+women+higher+testosterone+levels&source=bl&ots=-5F5ugzl3H&sig=Fx74r4xcQ6NpLPrwo6xKaack-lI&hl=en&ei=GpDZTLS1DIOBlAe7_PXuCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CD4Q6AEwCTgK#v=onepage&q=black%20women%20higher%20testosterone%20levels&f=false
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3455741
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/92/2/509
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and also Scipio Africanus….
“My suspicion is that what we see with the idealization of lighter black women is really the idealization of women who are more racially mixed. ”
So, do you think this “idealization of women who are more racially mixed…” applies to men as well. I’ve always been baffled as to why mixed/lighter type women are doted on but the same is not applied to men…it seems more acceptable to be a dark-skinned/ non-mixed man than a woman…what is that?
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Great post! I’ve been wondering if you’d write this one, to go with black women post.
Like Natasha said, most of the white women are average looking (surprise, surprise). It’s not surprising. There are also stunningly beautiful ones. And the ugly ones. <- Of course, it all depends on who you're talking to. These things are subjective.
But it leads us to another issue: is it possible to say which of our preferences are truly subjective and unique to us, and which are socially constructed. I am not even sure if "truly subjective" preferences exist.
So, people all over the world are brainwashed in seeing white beauty as THE beauty, and a standard to measure all the women.
We can say it this way: The most beautiful 10% of white women are more beautiful than the most beautiful 10% of black women.
Well, that’s just, like, your opinion, man.
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“Once again Abagond displays his child-like racism in which he attributes the blame for the shortcomings of his own, self-defined group to despised others (really anyone a few shades lighter than Whoopi Goldberg).”
Well, let’s pick apart the statement you just made:
“Once again Abagond displays his child-like racism…”
There is NOTHING “child like” about racism. It is an Adult disease which children are TAUGHT. Further, YOUR idea of racism is mixed with critique. We are discussing an issue. No one is being racist and EVERYONE is entitled to their opinon.
“in which he attributes the blame for the shortcomings of his own self-defined group to despised others…”
“His own” has two interpretations: his own thoughts or his own race. Which one are you referring to?
“(really anyone a few shades lighter than Whoopi Goldberg).”
Do you really think many of us are similar in shade to Whoopi? I”m am a helluva lot lighter than her and i do not look mixed.
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I don’t personally tend to think white women are more beautiful. They also weren’t the “ideal” where I’m from.
Same. Honestly, where I’m from, no one talks about who’s “most beautiful” but White people are pretty comfortable dogging each other’s looks, especially (for women) super-pale skin, stringy blonde hair, and noses that are “too” pointy. Blonde hair + blue eyes won’t get you very far here. But obviously I live in an alternate reality. 🙂
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Peanut,
I’m referring to the perception. The perception is that many/most people form the horn of Africa and maybe Northern Sudan have a”different” kind of look than the range of looks we see from most of the rest of sub-Saharan Africa.
Black men check for Ethiopian women alot. The straight hair and facial features that are prevalent among many of the people from that corner of Africa probably plays a role in that.
I understand the range of ethnicities and cultures within Ethipia. I’m talking about the ones you’d see, say, in DC, or LA. Are you saying that the Ethiopian girls I used to see in Dream, in DC on a Friday night, are indistinguishable from a girl from Lagos, or Kinshasa, or North Philly? I very much see a difference on a regular basis. If you don’t…
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Black men check for Ethiopian women alot. The straight hair and facial features that are prevalent among many of the people from that corner of Africa probably plays a role in that.
I’m not too far from DC and i don’t know what you’re seeing, but i don’t see many ethiopian women w/ straight hair and their facial features look…like a diverse range of facial features i would see anywhere in africa…i see Eithopian women dark brown, reddish brown and occassionally a light yellow, most of them have kinky or very kinky hair. I see them wearing cornrows…etc…I just don’t understand where this “perception”comes from…
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in my experience…Ethiopian women tend to date other Ethiopian men…i’m not saying they don’t date other black american men…but I don’t see it that often to be honest…
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Peanut,
I’ll take you at your word that you see no difference.
And I was actually going to mention that in my experience
there is a difference in the dating habvits of Ethiopian women who are recent arrivals (i.e., haven’t been in the US very long or grew up in Ethiopia) versus the ones who were born and raised here or came when they were very young. The Ethiopian women I went to college with mostly fell into teh latter group and they dated non-Ethio black guys all the time.
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@ Chuck
Chuck, since you’re familiar with the references you posted above, can you please just pull and post the quotes from them that say that Black women have a higher testosterone rate than other women?
I’m not saying it’s not true, but it would save a lot of time, for all concerned, if you could pull a few quotes from the text.
Thank you.
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Of course it’s mostly society that feels the need to cram this ish down our collective throats! It’s patently obvious to anyone with two eyes, a functioning brain, and the ability to analyze and comprehend data.
I, personally, don’t really care about other people’s opinions; I’m sure that most people don’t really care about mine, either. I’ve had people become offended with me for giving them MY opinion of something when they asked for it! I say, “Why get angry? You asked for MY opinion and I gave it to you!”
Digressing here…let me note a personal story of something that happened to me in Jr. High school. I played volleyball and was damned good at it; so good in fact, that I played Varsity even though I was in 8th grade. One of the girls on the team, who was a senior at the time, always had guys tripping over their tongues because they thought that she was “a hot piece” with a “nice ass”. I recall looking at her ass one day, then comparing it to mine. How funny that the ass they raved over was a flat pancake, while mine was (and still is) a pert, perky, tight round bum! She was a skinny, scrawny, 5’6″ 105# weakling, but she was “hot” because she dyed her black hair blonde. Me? I was 5’8″ and weighed 120# and had the hardbody from hell, but because I wasn’t ‘mighty whitey’ I wasn’t even given a second glance! I laughed about it then, and I still laugh about that to this day…if I lived my life according to what others expect, I would be a miserable person!
I don’t like Kool-aid so I don’t drink it. Others would be wise to do the same, no? : )
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P.S. – the ‘hourglass’ figure that most people tout is never truly natural…that’s what corsets and bustiers are for! It’s called redistribution…
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@sheree
You do have a point in regards to the business model. The thought did come to mind after viewing it a view times. The visuals just came off a bit watered down for my tastes…
@LJ
From my high school days looking at dirty blonds w/ roots of their true hair color showing, all the way to the university I work at, where you’d think it was an assembly line AKA The Clone Wars…and yeah, those with natural hair color look a lot better!
@sepultura13
Interesting tale! It’s almost comedic to hear folks clamor over standards such as that, only to be confused as to what exactly they’re looking at!
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Abagond:
Blackwomen gave beauty to all women, but they don’t get the credit. Whitewomen utilize various aspects of black beauty in american and european culture, and act as if they created it. The vast majority of whitewomen in tv and film are either southern, italian, jewish, latin, or middle-eastern. As a general rule, you’re not gonna see a lot of “real” whitewomen in Maxim, FHM, or Cosmo. Pure whitewomen have pale pinkish skin, blonde hair, thin noses, thin lips, small breasts, and flat butts. Blackwomen beat whitewomen in every category, and that’s a bonafide fact, not an opinion. Whitemen think that kissing the ass of whitewomen will make them stay loyal to them, but they’re wasting their time. Blackwomen are innocent victims of racial bulls$$t they have nothing to do with. Whitewomen want to maintain the political and economic clout they have attained due in large part to slavery and colonialism, which explains why sistas have such a hard time in the fashion and modeling industry……If whitewomen are so much better looking, why block access for blackwomen and other women of african and asian ancestry? Money and power are the motivating factors, not beauty!!!
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@Tyrone, ita
“Blackwomen are innocent victims of racial bulls$$t they have nothing to do with.”
Good post.
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Tyrone said…
“Blackwomen gave beauty to all women, but they don’t get the credit. Whitewomen utilize various aspects of black beauty in american and european culture, and act as if they created it. The vast majority of whitewomen in tv and film are either southern, italian, jewish, latin, or middle-eastern. As a general rule, you’re not gonna see a lot of “real” whitewomen in Maxim, FHM, or Cosmo. Pure whitewomen have pale pinkish skin, blonde hair, thin noses, thin lips, small breasts, and flat butts. Blackwomen beat whitewomen in every category, and that’s a bonafide fact, not an opinion. ”
I don’t think the purpose of this post is to take away from the beauty of white women. There are some beautiful white women who have all the features you just mentioned (small frame, pale skin,thin lips etc.) and they ARE beautiful. There is no one set standard for beauty, I think that was the point of the post…I agree that bw are definitely discriminated against and our beauty is never given credit, and yes eurocentric beauty IS shoved at people above anything else, but that doesn’t mean white women aren’t beautiful in their own right. Beauty is beauty. I don’t think that bw should become the beauty standard or be seen as superior anymore than I think ww should…I think the beauty standard should be eliminated and people should be seen as beautiful on an individual basis and accepted as who they are…
all i want is for bw to get their due respect and stop alienating bw for not meeting these societal, eurocentric ideals…I know that’s all I ask nothing more nothing less.
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I do agree that accepting black, asian and other types of beauty would pose a threat to eurocentric beauty ideals only because people would learn that there is no superior beauty…one race does NOT have a monopoly on beauty and there is a wide and diverse face when it comes to beauty…
so people just need to stop thinking that one race has a monopoly on beauty…that’s ridiculous and racist…
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sepultura13, i agree. don’t be fooled by the so called hourglass shape because women back then wore certain outfits to make them look curvy and womanly.
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Glad to see you’ve taken up my suggestion for this post (Also endorsed by Maria) Abagond.
Or did you already have it in mind?
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i agree with peanut. i don’t think any woman of race is better than the other. i’ve seen beautiful white women who are natural and don’t get all that unnecessary stuff on them. charlize theron, demi lavato, just to name a few white women who i think are gorgeous. black women have always been bashed for our looks since the beginning of time and all we ask for is give credit when it’s due. but i won’t be so quick to put white women down to make a point because it’s wrong and it’s just as bad as the media making black women feel bad about not being thin. to hell with a beauty standard because beauty is everywhere, skinny, thick, big, short, tall, black, white, or whatever: we’re all beautiful and it’s time we start seeing that.
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@ Tyrone
I agree with peanut.
Everyone has their own personal preferences, but the point of the post is not to replace one kind of racial prejudice with another.
No “kind” of women has to beat out any other “kind.” It’s just a case of different forms of beauty that can be perceived and appreciated differently by different people.
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I mean, even though she is overhyped, I still think Megan Fox is very beautiful, I thought she was pretty when she was in Mary Kate and Ashely movie and that was before she became overhyped. She has thin lips, small frame, pale skin, granted she isn’t a blond, but is she not beautiful just because she has those things??
Same thing applies to people who take every opportunity to degrade black beauty. People will say, oh dark skin is unattractive, kinky-hair is bad, ‘fat’women are ugly…Well all we have to do is look at this blog to see that these stereotypes aren’t true…we can look at many thick,dark-skinned bw on this very blog and see beauty…
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White women appear less attractive to me than they really are.
And the importance you place on the “hour glass” figure is just as damaging as the ‘rail thin’ ideal
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The one thing I’m staring to notice is a lot of white women with minimum musical talent and average looks becoming very successful.
Taylor Swift
Lady Gaga
Katy Perry
Fergie(Black eye peas)
Kesha
While dark skin black female musicians need to be extraordinarily talented like Jennifer Hudson, Lauren Hill or Whitney Houston.
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@Redman1000
Interesting point. Reminds me of the “green” movement, though I’d say the vast majority of Earth’s citizens have been living “green” either by no choice or since time began.
I’ve also noticed how the so-called “geeky chick” is popular, especially when viewing shows on G4TV and general gaming communities. I would say the tomboy chick as well, but that doesn’t fit the usual trend.
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“And the importance you place on the “hour glass” figure is just as damaging as the ‘rail thin’ ideal”
I was trying to resist commenting on this post. But I must say, I couldn’t agree more.
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Redman1000 says,
The one thing I’m staring to notice is a lot of white women with minimum musical talent and average looks becoming very successful.
Taylor Swift
Lady Gaga
Katy Perry
Fergie(Black eye peas)
Kesha
While dark skin black female musicians need to be extraordinarily talented like Jennifer Hudson, Lauren Hill or Whitney Houston.
laromana says,
Redman1000, this is an excellent observation. It’s dishearthening to see this ANTI-BW trend in the American music and enterntainment industries.
lil’vina says,
black women have always been bashed for our looks since the beginning of time and all we ask for is give credit when it’s due
laromana says,
lil’vina, your comment is so on point.
I especially detest when WW are OVERPRAISED for having features that are COMMON to BW while BW are NEVER PRAISED for having the same features (eg. full lips, full butts, etc.). An excellent example of this is Sophia Loren. Much later in her life, Sophia admitted that one of her grandparents was Black. This really helped to explain Sophia’s unique beauty in comparison to most of the WW of her generation (since she’s part Black).
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Redman1000
The one thing I’m staring to notice is a lot of white women with minimum musical talent and average looks becoming very successful.
Taylor Swift
Lady Gaga
Katy Perry
Fergie(Black eye peas)
Kesha
While dark skin black female musicians need to be extraordinarily talented like Jennifer Hudson, Lauren Hill or Whitney Houston.
——————————————————————–
I think Taylor Swift is gorgeous, stunning even, facially.
But, I do agree that those you listed is category A , have average talent at best;Lady Gaga is comfortable with pushing the envelope, and her voice is pretty good actually,so she has that in her favor.
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Taylor Swift is cute, IMO. The others, not so much. Kesha is plain annoying. She should stay away from “rapping”.
peanut,
“I don’t think that bw should become the beauty standard or be seen as superior anymore than I think ww should…one race does NOT have a monopoly on beauty and there is a wide and diverse face when it comes to beauty”
Co-sign.
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“black women have always been bashed for our looks since the beginning of time and all we ask for is give credit when it’s due.”
Actually no.
At one point, everybody was Black and living in Africa – according to anthropologists. In fact, it was probably lighter skin that first seemed out of place and abnormal.
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Laramona, I agree. Any time you see a non black woman who has features like a black woman(Kim kardashian, Jennifer Lopez, Angelina Jolie, Scarlett johanson) they are praised as beautiful. I’m not saying women of other races can’t acheive this look but why is it okay for them to be praised but not black women who’ve had it all their life? Guess I’ll never understand that.
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There are beautiful White women, Sophia Loren for one, I think she is flat out gorgeous but I saw some women in the “Nous sommes tres belles” post for example, that were just as lovely.
Men have been quite dismissive of women for ages, Blacks have been dismissed for a while as well, so why is it whenever the subject of “women” comes up, its all about “hot or not” and the bottom line is always pale + whatever body type is in style? We’ve been forced fed this ideology and very little else.
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Chuck,
Women whose ancestors come from tropical or sub tropical zones, usually enter puberty earlier. I would assume they would also enter menopause earlier, which would account for their testosterone level to be higher than a woman who isn’t in menopause.
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This . . ..hmm
I don’t believe that individual ideas of beauty for young women are shaped (at the all important young ages) by the media as much as they are shaped by their parents and those really responsible for molding them.
I go to a Historically White University, and I’m more than proud of my wide hipped, natural hair, Caribbean body.
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@ chuk: somehow I don’t buy your testosterone idea. If blacks have higher leves of that, they would be the ones opressing others, wouldn’t they? Also, wouldn’t that make the white males more feminine than blacks?
Hmm… Maybe you tried to convey that to us??
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White women are used to sell products more than other ethnic groups of women. Advertisers sell and image then sell a product to support it, or help the individual build it, hence all the self mutilation (‘beautification’) minority women in these nations that engage use white women in that fashion…
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@ lil’vina
those women (dont forget christina hendricks) get praised b/c they have all the features of black women but none of the hair and skin tone…ie they are white….
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@ Hathor
Except that I can’t find any direct references to higher testosterone levels in Chuck’s citations… and I’m beginning to seriously wonder if Chuck even knows where the references are himself.
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just discount Chuck’s comment….
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I find it interesting that when Chuck stated his opinion that the top percent of white women are more beautiful than the top percent of black women, people just nodded and told him that was his opinion, end of story, “go find him one” (a white woman). When Tyrone essentially says the opposite by stating his opinion that black women are more beautiful than white women, a number of people go on diatribes naming beautiful white women, how the goal isn’t to replace one from of beauty with the other, etc. Isn’t his opinion opinion too, or is that only the case when that opinion is part of the norm? Not that I don’t agree with peanut or King, but the implicit assumption that preference for white women “makes sense” while preference for black women is somehow politicized and problematic is becoming more and more annoying.
I do agree that beauty is in all races of women, body types, etc. but this type of response (shrugs at preference for white women, the side eye at preference for black women) seems to point to something else going on.
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@laromana
Where/When did Sophia Loren say that one of her grandparents was Black?
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@ Nate
Really? did I just nod???
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@ King
No. You (and I think only you) did not.
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Why are Asian women over-represented as telly news girls in US, Canada, UK, Australia etc. in proportion to their numbers in the general populations of those societies?
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@ Nate
Well, at least I asked Chuck about his testosterone explanation above… even though I find his ridiculous HBD beliefs to be the epitome of nonsense…
I wonder why he hasn’t answered yet?
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This post is odd to me. Aren’t all ideas of beauty of subjective? It just makes me lightheaded to read that you objectively believe white women are less attractive than society says they are, who are you to make such claims? As far as what society is trying to tell you is beautiful, can’t we just point out the obvious? This is a consumer society, filled primarily with white people. White people are marketed to, with white things. The way you phrase things sometimes Abagond, you seem to think white peoples main objective is to demoralize black people rather than the obvious, which is sell things. It is impossible to determine what will factor into someones personal tastes for women, but it includes a lot of things. Some of it is all types of marketing, their DNA, perhaps personal experience blah blah. You can’t come up with a percentage of what makes it up, but it is different from person to person. Not one single anecdote from a poster here is any kind of evidence of what society thinks either.
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@Chuck,
Black women have almost every primary feminine physical characteristic associated with the adult female…almost every single one, buddy!
I respect that you may have a preference for white or Asian females but I promise right here that to attempt to impose some lessor feminine status on Black women( by subtracting from their value as females) is a huge mistake!
You can thus carry on peddling this stuff about testosterones being evident of Black female physical de-femininity (and I happen to agree with you as far as the levels of testosterone existent in Black females in comparison to other races of females) but you do so at your own risk.
But like I say: have your physical preferences, I have mine. Serena Williams happens to epitomise my preference.
Menelik Charles
London UK
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Sure white women are beautiful. But absolutely, their beauty is exaggerated by social conditioning.
Given the nature of the US entertainment juggernaut, people the world over get the dominant US standard of beauty beamed into their TV sets and plastered on their billboards. Of course that has an influence.
Personally, I’m not so much into white women, although I tend to find women who are white and mixed with something else very appealing indeed. On appearance alone, I find black or Asian women better looking; but then, that is entirely my personal preference. I don’t claim that there is some empirical scientific theory that backs this up, as Chuck was attempting to do earlier.
Next – blue is a better colour than red! Scientific studies prove it to be true!
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Nate, you’re right.
I should have said more to Chuck. But his comment was just so stupid that I didnt’ want to waste time on it. But, you are right in what you said…if Chuck can make remarks that are degrading to bw, then I guess Tyrone should be able to make comments degrading to ww…in all fairness. you’re right. I apologize. I guess i’m so used to bw being disparaged on the internet somethings I just don’t bother to argue over, while other things I do…
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@ Menelik Charles:
Serena Williams? Not for me.
But it’s all good. Vive la difference!
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I was just pointing out that my qualm is not that I want bw to be looked at as superior, I just want fair-treatment. Also, I don’t understand why people need to constantly bash bw and uplift ww at the same time…if ww are so great, then get the f*ck off this blog, get your azz out there and get one… and leave the rest of us in peace.
See, I don’t care if someone prefers ww or not…just don’t degrade me in the process. Get a life and stop sitting on the internet lusting after “hot ww,” when you probably can’t even get that woman to look twice at you in reality…
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Funny note about Chuck’s first link: It also said black women have higher estradiol levels. Estradiol is responsible for secondary sexual characteristics and maintenance of pregnancy. Couldnt one argue black women re more feminine because of this?
I suppose so, but most of us here dont have agendas to undermine the femininity of non-black women…
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The classic bw are masculine stereotype is to be expected and its also becoming played out. Now people are using pseudo-scientific articles to justify the de-feminization of bw…grand.
Well ,since bw are so testosterone-rich and were so masculine…I say we all join together and create a bw, testosterone army, go out and take over the world…why not? Since we’re so masculine and strong and full of testosterone….i mean some of yall need to be careful what you say…cuz bw and our testosterone are coming to get you… *rolls eyes/sarcasm*
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@ young sister Y,
that’s EXACTLY what I saw but I was keeping it back until (or unless) Chuck declined my advice to stay away from this line of ‘debate’! When I say dark-skinned Negroid-featured females are the most physically envied and desired females at the level of the sub-conscious (sub-conscious because white men have CONSCIOUSLY imposed their females upon the rest of the coloured world) I can absolutely prove it!
The reader may not like my adoration of the Amazonian Serena Williams but (no pun intended) she has far more feminine physical characteristics than either you typical or Asian or white female.
“And what physically defines a female?” you may ask. Well, don’t ask is my advice because you may not like the answer!
Good day America!
Menelik Charles
London UK
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@ Rolo
The vast majority of white people are brunette’s and are no where near thin. If advertising and the media was really about simply selling white to white people, then we’d see the average white person all over the TV screens. Instead we see thin blonds, who even the average white person (whom are supposed to be automatically beautiful) are forced to envy and swoon over.
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@peanut- I’d be all up for that, but I have a mani-pedi tomorrow. Can we schedule that world take over for say…Friday? After Lattes of course?
As far as white women being the standard of beauty and our socialization towards acceptance of that fact; yes I can definitely agree that, without said socialization, they would not be placed on an aesthetic pedestal as often as they are.
I’m sure any black female can attest to having that one white female friend who covertly expressed/es envy or resentment if you get more attention, are more beautiful, are thinner, or have a “better mate” than she BELIEVES she does/is. It’s not just the men who peddle this, the women buy into it too and fully believe that they are more desirable than we are AT ALL TIMES, regardless of plain observation to the contrary.
As far as my testosterone. It unfortunately did not save me from getting my butt kicked the night I thought I could “play wrestle” my army buddy during a drinking binge. *wince* LOL!
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I mean maybe that’s what all this is about…this WHOLE situation, maybe people are just legtimately fearful of bw, so to keep us in our place they gotta degrade us w/ these stereotypes…hmmm…something to ponder…
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When I was younger, I remember children (white) making fun of my eyes by pulling the corners. I wanted to look more like them to the point I even considered having surgery to make my eyes bigger. I seriously thought something was wrong with me. Of course, there was nothing wrong with me.
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torchandlyre said…
“I’m sure any black female can attest to having that one white female friend who covertly expressed/es envy or resentment if you get more attention, are more beautiful, are thinner, or have a “better mate” than she BELIEVES she does/is. It’s not just the men who peddle this, the women buy into it too and fully believe that they are more desirable than we are AT ALL TIMES, regardless of plain observation to the contrary.”
Yeah, it aint just ww that do that either…asian women do that, white latinas do that…it seems like so many people just got the idea that no matter how ugly and busted they are… there’s always a bw beneath them…
torchandlyre…
“As far as my testosterone. It unfortunately did not save me from getting my butt kicked the night I thought I could “play wrestle” my army buddy during a drinking binge. *wince* LOL!”
that’s another thing…its a damn shame our testosterone doesn’t stop bw from being molested/abused/ raped at a rate far higher than our “less testosterone” prone white counterparts. It’s a damn shame…man I WISH that testosterone would start to kick in…
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Bo Derek’s figure not only comes to mind. I remember how Bo Derek made it “cool” and popular by sporting cornrow braids. Wth? How is it she made it hip and happening when BW have done that particular style for years?
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torchandlyre said:
I’m sure any black female can attest to having that one white female friend who covertly expresses envy or resentment if you get more attention, are more beautiful… than she BELIEVES she is… It’s not just the men who peddle this, the women buy into it too, and fully believe that they’re more desirable than we are AT ALL TIMES, regardless of plain observation to the contrary.
Menelik says:
with respect, a sense of self-entitlement is NOT the same as white white women believing they’re more aesthetically attractive than Black females. I strongly suspect (and I have supporting evidence) that white women in the main envy Black women. Not those ‘Black’ women dipped in caramel but those dipped in chocolate.
Menelik Charles
London UK
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Nate wrote: “I do agree that beauty is in all races of women, body types, etc. but this type of response (shrugs at preference for white women, the side eye at preference for black women) seems to point to something else going on.”
ITA.
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did anyone else notice that chuck has found his ‘evidence’ just by typing ‘black women higher testosterone’ into google (follow the link and you can see for yourself)?
and that his ‘study’ is a citation of a specific research group of american women in their first trimester of pregnancy?
anyone else see any difficulties extrapolating AT ALL regarding BW and WW based on this pathetic shred of evidence?
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Ok, Ok i get it…black women are just absolutely horrid to behold. The mere thought of us being feminine seems to be too much work for others to comprehend.
If you prefer white women over black women, fine.
If you prefer light-skinned women with straight hair and keen features over dark-skinned women with kinky hair and strong features, so be it.
Just stop talking about us like we’re supposed to be Ok with the fact that we are the most undesirable and unattractive group of women.
Abagond, as much as I appreciate you making threads like this, I feel like the only thing it did was make way for comments to justify why people prefer white women or women who are light-skinned over dark-skinned black women.
So yeah, I get it…there’s never been a day that I haven’t because of the constant reminder of such.
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and you agreed w/ Chuck on his testosterone comments btw…i hope everyone read that…
“You can thus carry on peddling this stuff about testosterones being evident of Black female physical de-femininity (and I happen to agree with you as far as the levels of testosterone existent in Black females in comparison to other races of females) but you do so at your own risk.”
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Damn, if my testosterone were higher…ooo i’d be careful…ooo
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so back to what i was saying before i was rudely interrupted…
if bw had such high levels of testosterone then maybe bw wouldn’t be abused, raped, and made to be slaves (to do this day) at an unprecented rate…maybe bw wouldn’t be forced into sexual slavery in countries throughout the middle east and europe…i wish our testosterone would have prevented these things from happening…
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@peanut- Me too. Perhaps we can do some kind of arm-chair BS analysis for this. Maybe our testosterone levels are sniffed out by predatory men and their biology rewires to them not think of us as women any more but equals. Equals that can be conquered…*rubs chin*
Nah! It’s just because if and when something happens to us it won’t make the news and the police will barely search. LOL!
That’s not funny. But it is. That’s why I’m not having children and sticking with cats. Think of what my daughters would be born into.
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torchandlyre,
“Nah! It’s just because if and when something happens to us it won’t make the news and the police will barely search. LOL!
That’s not funny. But it is. That’s why I’m not having children and sticking with cats. Think of what my daughters would be born into.”
Yes, when we go missing and no one searches…I guess its cuz they think our testosterone levels will protect us from predators and there is no need to send out police to recover us cuz we’re so street-smart and testosterone prone…it all makes sense now.
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@ Menelik Charles
Thats funny. I wrote up a whole rebuttal but decided Chuck should be ignored. But Since people decided to go for it I just wanted to add that tidbit.
Also one of the articles linked is merely an abstract. Anyone who does research knows abstracts dont “tell the whole truth”. Not because the researchers have something to hide, but the abstracts are used to “catch” your attention and make you want to read the entire research paper! They are merely previews.
@peanut
LMAO, I have tests all this week, but Im free starting Friday. We can take over the world then!
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They are not only made to be beautiful, but are made to be the standard of what beauty is especially in America. When one is asked to picture what a beautiful American woman would look like chances are great that they will picture a blonde, blue-eyed white woman, and thanks to white domination with most of the world, some girls of other ethnicities want to have white women’s physical qualities.
It’s sad because I find beauty in all women. I especially like thickness on a woman in certain areas 🙂 Still, beauty in all women must be appreciated, but here in the west, it’s a rare occurrance.
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“Thats funny. I wrote up a whole rebuttal but decided Chuck should be ignored. But Since people decided to go for it I just wanted to add that tidbit.”
that’s what my intent was to ignore his comment, but as it was brought to my intention if i’m gonna give someone a pass on their views, then I should have given Tyrone a pass for his same views…
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I was expecting a battlefield. But it’s so quiet in here compared to previous posts of this nature.
Maybe it’s just the calm before the testosterone storm.
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abagond are you here?
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I would like to apologize to Tyrone…even though I still meant what I said about beauty. Tyrone does have a right to his opinion just as Chuck does and people have the right to disagree, but he does have a right and atleast (unlike some) tyrone was TRYING to defend bw from the many insults hurled at our testosterone-prone likeness…
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so thank you tyrone for trying to defend bw…although i don’t agree w/ everything you said…i appreciate you trying to defend us…
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the topic is also about how white female beauty affects WOC perception of their own beauty…it is very fitting then (in my opinion) to mention bw and perceptions of masculinity
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White women are held up in this society as the epitome of femininity and bw are seen as the opposite, masculine…this perception colors how many people view our beauty…some people see darker skin as automatically being masculine and less beautiful than lighter skin and that is due largely to the white female beauty being placed on a pedestal above all other types of beauty…and now we’ve got people trying to use pseudo-science as an excuse to further demoralize and defeminize black female beauty…
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some people see long straight hair as beautiful. leigh mentioned how she was made to see the shape of her eyes as inferior. these white female beauty ideals affect everyone and it is very DESTRUCTIVE to only champion one form of beauty as the only form of beauty. This is a diverse country and people need to see a diverse range of beauty.
As a bw, we’re put on the bottom of the hierarchy when it comes to beauty and on top of that we’re made to seem masculine. So it’s incredibly annoying to see people making comments (whether black or white) about bw being masculine and having higher testosterone levels…if I was a young black girl reading this why would I want to be made to feel that my natural look was less feminine and beautiful than other women? Why would I want people passing around pseudo-scientific articles explaining WHY bw are less feminine and less beautiful than other women??
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contrary to popular belief in these parts, the thin look is not synonymous with Europeans. Some Europeans are built studier than others. The same can said of Africans who vary in height and built according to ethnic group and even thin, there is variety.
Sara Bartman’s body type isn’t common among African women.
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Kid W/Golden Arms
White women are used to sell products more than other ethnic groups of women. Advertisers sell and image then sell a product to support it,
because they are selling to a largly white audience. People like to see themselves in models.
China is a just emerging audience for Western goods. China(unlike Japan) seems to like seeing Asian models so you’re seeing more Asian models used in high fashion.
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peanut
Ethiopian women, Dominican and Brazilian women, Mediterranean women, Phillipinas, Bajan and Trini women, etc.
most Ethiopian women look black, I am in an area where there are alot of Ethiopians and…uh they look black. I don’t know where people get the idea that Ethiopias look more “mixed’ than any other ethnicity in africa…yeah some do, but they are the minority and also Ethiopians have a wide array of looks, the Ethiopians in the South and North etc…can look quite different, but still black get it?
As someone who is part Ethiopian. Thank you for this^^^. Some of us even look like African-Americans and West Africans.
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I find it funny that you all reject my citations or seek to qualify them when I am the only one who has provided a shred of empircal evidence to this debate.
The rest of you are arguing from some grand notion of “love is colorblind” which has no basis in fact either. Your argument just happens to be more socially acceptable than mine.
The truth of the matter is this: men are more turned on by and attracted to post-pubescent women when the gap between the man’s testosterone and woman’s testosterone is greatest.
And the truth is that the male-female gap reaches a nadir when we are talking about black women, on average. Of course, this doesn’t apply to any of the black women here.
Men are the arbiters of the valuation of what we are talking about here; their attractions decide the debate. Men of all races seem more attracted to women with lower testosterone levels than the opposite. Asian women and dainty white women are the ideal because that’s what men find most attractive not because society has forced this to happen.
Of course, I must caveat this all by saying that there are plenty of attractive black women out there.
I’d be willing to tackle Menelik Charles’ theory that white men hold Negroidal women as their subconscious ideal if only he would let us in on his thesis.
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I just deleted quite a few comments by Menelik, Peanut and Dr Vagrant X. Rape and abuse of black women is off-topic.
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fair enough
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i was actually going to ask you to delete some of my comments anyway that’s why i asked where you were abagond…
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Kwamla:
Right, this post grew out of your comment back in August. I had promised to do it, so here it is, for good or ill.
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peanut says,
As a bw, we’re put on the bottom of the hierarchy when it comes to beauty and on top of that we’re made to seem masculine. So it’s incredibly annoying to see people making comments (whether black or white) about bw being masculine and having higher testosterone levels…if I was a young black girl reading this why would I want to be made to feel that my natural look was less feminine and beautiful than other women? Why would I want people passing around pseudo-scientific articles explaining WHY bw are less feminine and less beautiful than other women??
laromana says,
EXCELLENT point, peanut.
It never ceases to amaze me the lengths ANTI-BW RACISTS will go to use “RACIST PSEUDOSCIENCE” to PROMOTE ANTI-BW LIES, MYTHS, and STEREOTYPES.
To state that ALL BW have “higher testosterone levels” than ALL NON-BW and are therefore “MORE MASCULINE” and “LESS ATTRACTIVE” to MOST MEN is the height of ANTI-BW RACIST BS, regardless of the “SO CALLED SCIENTIFIC FACTS” SOME may claim to back it up.
BW/PRO-BW SUPPORTERS MUST do all they can to CONFRONT/CONDEMN/WORK to DESTROY ANTI-BW RACISM, no matter how it is DISGUISED.
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Chuck, the problem is a case of what you consider to be empirical evidence. You are making statements which are rather simplistic in their derivation.
Your thinking goes as follows:
1) Testosterone is an androgen responsible for elements of male development.
2) Ostensibly, “Black” women have higher levels of of testosterone, on average, than do “White” women.
3) Therefore, in general, Black women tend to be more masculine than White women, and thus are less attractive to men, in general—since men are most attracted to the most feminine women.
Is that a fair assessment of your theory, in a nutshell?
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contrary to popular belief in these parts, the thin look is not synonymous with Europeans. Some Europeans are built studier than others. The same can said of Africans who vary in height and built according to ethnic group and even thin, there is variety.
Co-sign. I don’t get what the hell does thinness has to do with whites and asians. I’ve seen many thin black women. I don’t find big butt attractive either. Buffie looks like a circus freak to me. But I’m being biased because I myself have a flat pancake butt. I don’t fit into either standard of beauty, so I say screw them both. Americans need to stop enslaving themselves by putting themselves into boxes. Blacks looks, whites look like that. I believe that there’s a difference, but I think that people make the differences much more than it really is. How can I believe blond straight hair, super thin with big boobs or dark brown skin, kinky black hair and big butt is perfect when I don’t fit into either?
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here is some evidence…
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laromana,
caps don’t make your statements true. if a young black girl read this you could make two points to her. first, you could tell her that these are only averages and thus don’t give insight to every single individual. for instance, i’m a redheaded man, and i know that redheaded men generally aren’t perceived as being all that attractive. i accept this generality. a young black girl could be made to understand that there isn’t a certain pattern but that she could be an outlier to that pattern. second, you could tell the young black girl that looks aren’t everything and that their value as a human isn’t a function of their beauty. if black women aren’t as objectively attractive as women of other races that doesn’t diminish their value as humans.
if i was racist i would say that black women are less valuable as humans than white women, but i don’t believe that to be true.
further, the topic of black women versus white women was brought up for discussion by abagond. he opened the can of worms. he encouraged debate by doing so. i find it shameful that you would call people who engage in this debate or who believe something different from what you believe to be racist and worth condemning. you can bring up counterpoints to disprove us, but it is pathetic for you to try to shout us down as irrational racists.
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….yes ALL bw are so masculine…we all are and that’s just what it is
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if i was racist i would say that black women are less valuable as humans than white women, but i don’t believe that to be true.
You don’t have to be a racist to be a bad scientist.
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Chuck said…
“a young black girl could be made to understand that there isn’t a certain pattern but that she could be an outlier to that pattern. second, you could tell the young black girl that looks aren’t everything and that their value as a human isn’t a function of their beauty. if black women aren’t as objectively attractive as women of other races that doesn’t diminish their value as humans. ”
chuck’s idea of encouragement…
okay, little black girls…” yes bw are uglier than other women and more masculine, but that’s okay you may be the exception…”
what a foolish thing to say Chuck…
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If you are a young bw reading this…pay no mind to Chuck’s comment…you’re not masculine and you’re just as beautiful as any other woman…no matter what people say 🙂
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I know not everyone has the same taste…but I just don’t see how anyone could say any of the women I posted are truly masculine…I just don’t understand it…
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But regardless of what personal taste are…above all people need to learn to accept people for who they are…this idea that there is only one superficial form of beauty needs to stop. JUst because something is not your personal preference doesn’t mean its not someone else’s and it doesn’t mean there is something wrong with it…so please just stop.
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The TRUTH of the matter is that testosterone does not = masculinity. BOTH men and women produce testosterone in their bodies, just at different levels. Also, having a higher level of testosterone may make you more lean (thinner) and less flabby.
The big question really is how much testosterone? For instance, if you have two hairs on you body, and someone else has only one, you will have TWICE a much hair as the other person! It sounds like a big difference, but practically speaking, it will make no appreciable difference in your appearance.
This is the danger of reading other peoples research, and coming to your own simplistic conclusions based on it. Most HBDers have graduated Magna Cum Laude from YouTube University, and have learned what they know from a cabal of non-specialists and discredited, minor “scientists” who couldn’t get a show on public access cable.
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it’s the fact that Chuck (even though he doesn’t understand what he was talking about) was TRYING to imply that bw were inferior to bw by using quack pseudo-science. That is the issue…the issue is that he is stating that bw are inferior…he’s not stating a preference…he’s not speaking from his POV, he is trying to state that bw OVERALL are inherently less feminine and attractive (inferior) to ww in terms of their appearance and that is messed up…
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* inferior to ww
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anyway, i’m done with this….it’s a waste of time…this blog is stressful.
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blah blah. you all are only in the business of preserving peoples’ self esteem. i don’t really care about all that. i’m interested in the real way the world works seperate from how those truths are interpreted by individuals.
i’m curious King, how much have you read about HBD and why do you think that it is quack science? let’s start with an easy one for you: why are black men more athletic than white men?
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Why don’t we start with something even simpler? What is a “Black man” and what is a “White man?”
Definition of terms.
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er… this may end up taking us off topic:
We may need to take it up here, rather than to pollute this thread.
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King:
a black man is a man who has more in common genetically with men of his similar racial group which has a more recent geographical jumping off point from sub-Saharan Africa. thus a black man is a man who has similar characteristics to other black men. those black men have more genetically in common with men from Africa than do white men.
i know where you’re going with this, btw. you want to derail the discussion by arguing that race is a social construct.
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Let’s go to the other thread. We’re off topic.
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Chuck said:
We can say it this way: The most beautiful 10% of white women are more beautiful than the most beautiful 10% of black women.
It has to do with testosterone levels.
Menelik says:
I just spotted this….loooool great assertion but where is the evidence for this, my man?
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@chuck: just observing your comments here, seems to me that you are trying to emphesize the masculinity of the black women vs. femininity of the white women. You talk about how attractive “very young women” are and how repulsive the masculine black women are for the “majority”, but as we all know, you talk about yourself.
I might be wrong here, but from your posts I get the impression that for you this whole debate is about insecurity of your own sexuality. It looks to me that from your point of view black women are not attractive because they remind you of men and, ergo, if you would confess that you like black masculine women somebody somewhere might think that you might have some hidden homosexuality in you.
As a very secure heterosexual male I can tell you Chuck that even Serena Williams is a very good looking woman, even though she is well trained athlete and has visible muscles. That, of course, does not make her a man and even if you like her, that does not make you a homosexual.
Of course, it might be, that you like “very young women” and for you femininity means submission, weakness and total subservient status aside of a man, and white woman for you is somehow the epitome of that and black woman, with her high testosterone leves, is not. At least that you are implying.
You also seem to say that this very young weakling white submissive soft woman is better and more attractive than normal and healthy black woman, sorry, testosterone buffed up raging black amazon. Am I wrong here?
Personally I do not think that is the true. It is very funny that you make claims about the science behind your jabbering, since for majority of MY friends do not give a shit about the race or color of a woman. See, it is more complicated issue than just color. This liking I mean. And these are WHITE friends I am talking about. Very much likely more racially pure whites than you, my friend, since there has been so much mixing over there in USA.
So are white women more beautiful than black? Of course not. There are beautiful black women and white women. It is not about hormone leves, Chuckie.
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Chuck:
I didn’t say I thought you were an irrational racist: you must have read my mind there.
I said I thought your argument – and your “evidence” for it – sucked.
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Peanut:
no it isn’t “just you”. there’s nothing “masculine” about any of those women. which of course surprises neither of us in the least.
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I do agree that white women are emphasised as being more beautiful than they actually are. There are films and TV series where they make it clear that the main white female character is meant to be a woman that tempts all the men and yet when you really look at her you can conclude she has average features. Yes, you can see why some might like her if they have a thing for redheads, bedroom eyes, or a dazzling smile, for example, but it’s not enough to justify her being the woman all the men lust after. Yet they do.
Speaking as a Eurasian, I do not think double-eyelid surgery is only to do with westernisation. Half the Chinese population are born with double eyelids. One third of the Korean population are born with double eyelids. It’s somewhere around a quarter among the Japanese population. If you go further down to South East Asia, the majority are born with double eyelids. Asians born with double eyelids can have the crease up to 1 cm away from the eye. But Asians with single eyelids aren’t trying to look like the Asians with double eyelids, NO… whites are so amazing, they MUST be trying to look like them! Never mind that they’re still obviously Asian after fiddling with their lids, they are definitely on their way to using plastic surgery to transform into white people. LOL
Also, did you know that the occurrence of single eyelids is higher among Asian men than among Asian women? It may have come to be seen as more masculine to have a single eyelid, which is why the majority of people getting these operations are women.
In addition, looking ‘cute’ is ideal in some cultures. For example, in Japan. Most western women would feel offended to be referred to as cute and putting any effort into it would instantly render you an immature fool to your peers. Getting a double eyelid (either temporarily or permanently) makes the eyes pop and look bigger. A lot of the women doing this then also use the ulzzang contact lenses from Korea (those coloured contacts where the iris is bigger than your natural iris). Together, this gives them cute puppy eyes. Even in Japanese films that are meant to arouse men (e.g. gravure), the women are still smiling sweetly, giggling and tilting their heads down while looking up at the camera so that they appear cute and innocent.
As for the Eurasian ideal of beauty, they typically have the features that are prized in their culture, but on a predominantly Asian-looking face. They have the pale skin (which isn’t impossible for East Asians: many are paler than white people), the slightly higher nose bridge, the double eyelids… but they generally have an Asian face shape, a small mouth (width-wise), small nose and Asian eye structure (shallow eye sockets, extra fat above eye).
The ideal of being thin in the west is not spreading to Asia. Their own thin ideal has already been there a long time and is far more extreme. If you’re 50kg and above, you’re fat. Doesn’t matter how tall you are, you… are… FAT. I’ve always weighed around 48/49, went up to 50 and my Asian grandma was telling me I was fat and needed to exercise more. Yet, at the same time, I often got nasty comments from white people about being anorexic.
Just like models in the west are all given the same measurements and weights no matter how different they look, the same is done in Asia. It takes a brave woman to defy them and admit she actually weighs more than 50kg. Even though she clearly still looks slim, people care so much about the numbers. Can’t remember where I read it, but one model insisted her real weight be published and it caused quite a stir.
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all this talk of this testosterone talk makes me think of my own post
black women so unfeminine
Asian women too feminine
white women just right
black men very masculine
asian men unmasculine
white men just right
As for east africans, I have seen west african who looks east african and vice versa. One girl I know I thought she was Eritrean but nope she is Nigerian (hausa/yoruba) to be exact. So yeah…
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“black women so unfeminine
Asian women too feminine
white women just right
black men very masculine
asian men unmasculine
white men just right”
ya.
What’s peculiar about this particular set of offensive stereotypes is that it is not even internally consistent. The stereotype of a BW is large breasted and hipped -signifying ‘femininity’. Yet somehow your six lines seems to entirely sum up conventional views on this… I don’t even see how it works
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Chuck said,
“The truth of the matter is this: men are more turned on by and attracted to post-pubescent women when the gap between the man’s testosterone and woman’s testosterone is greatest. ”
There are no pre-pubescent women, they are children. So what’s his point.
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Even a post-pubescent woman can remain a child for several years. If this his preference and he thinks this feminine what does this make Chuck.
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I’m with Chuck on this one – say what you will about him, but at least he’s offered some scientific evidence to back up his claims. If you disagree, it seems to me the best way to do so would be by presenting countervailing scientific evidence, and to date none of those who take issue with what he saidd have done so. Not a convincing counter argument, does this make, in my view.
Moreover, I think all the kneejerk reactions are unnecessary. Why?
Because, think about this, and Chuck hinted at this in one of his last comments above – would this even be a matter of debate if, say, the issue was about shorter Men versus taller Men, or in Chuck’s case, Men who have red hair versus Men who have black hair? It is a simple matter of observation who Women, accross the board, culture and time eras, tend to prefer as mates if and when they can choose, which is most of the time. Males display, Females choose, yes? If that’s true, then it is also true that most Women, most of the time, would choose a taller Man over a shorter one; and a Man who doesn’t have red hair over one who does.
These two situations are undoubtedly genetic in origin – although one can be more readily addressed than the other, that isn’t the point. Both have genetic roots, and Women make no bones about their hardwired preferences either – if anyone doubts this, all they need do is go to the more popular online websites like OKCupid, Match.com, or eHarmony, and see for yourself.
Yet, it is hard to see Abagond, or anyone else for that matter, putting up for real debate and discussion, a post entitled “Are Tall/Other Than Red-Haired Men Handsome, Or Is It Society That Makes Them Seem So?”. Indeed, many of the very same female voices who are all up in arms right now, would turn right around and have no qualms rejecting, out of hand, guys who are well under 5’6″ and/or who look like Howdy Doody. But these are conditions these Men cannot help – they were born that way, just like Serena Williams was born the way she was, or Jennifer Hudson. Yes, both can lose weight, etc. But neither are going to be percieved in the same way that say, Carrie Prejean is. the latter remains the American and more broader ideal of what beautiful and feminine is; the former two examples, not so much.
Why this is such a huge sticking point for so many Sistas, I don’t get. After all, Black Women have made the self-mutilation practice that is the haircare business a multi-billion per year endeavor. If Black Women enmasse didn’t care about this topic so much, so many of them wouldn’t be doing that, they’d let their hair grow into more natural patterns for their genetic makeup. But they don’t. Which tells me, that there’s a there, there.
So many short Men and/or red-haired Men face all manner of documented discrimination all the time, on the job and off, and this includes rank discrimination and bigotry from Women too – yet, they soldier on and go about the business of living their lives. Why can’t Black Women just do the same?
Comments?
Holla back
O.
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theobsidianfiles,
I don’t know where you live, but only a short while ago, a black woman in the US could not work if she wore a natural hair style. Work is not something that has been optional for most of us, even if we have a husband and supportive family.
There was not a wanting to look white, it was demanded for a very long while. Put a girdle on that big butt, don’t wear too much color(this included black men), put that white powder on your face and don’t tie up that head, straighten or pull you hair back tight. Natural hair now isn’t exactly accepted in corporate jobs now. After a century of this pressure, you think it is easy to not buy into this and especially living in a culture where all women a made to be sensitive about their looks.
On a more personal level, black men may say they like black women with natural hair, but it doesn’t play our like that. Women do what it takes to appeal to men.
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Obsidian:
Chuck did not present evidence. He sprayed his comment with links he found in a Google search. Links he did not even quote from. I have seen my own posts presented as “evidence” in just that way for things I never said.
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But Abagond doesn’t write posts about which men are more attractive, does he? It’s only women who are endlessly rated according to their appearance. He’s not unusual. A lot of people see women only in terms of their sexual attractiveness to men.
So it seems a bit rich to accuse black women of obsessing about this topic
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Chuck said:
“blah blah. you all are only in the business of preserving peoples’ self esteem… “
That is an ad hominem and one that can be applied to you too since your positions favour your own race as well.
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2+2=5. Here’s the evidence:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_%2B_2_%3D_5
http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts-apparel/unisex/generic/60f5/
http://www.kfunigraz.ac.at/imawww/pages/humor/twoandtwo.html
Click to access Vukmir10.1.pdf
I only want to understand the way the world works! I am interested only in empirical evidence!
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my problem with what chuck is saying isn’t whether or not blacks have more testosterone, that may be true. My problem is the jump from that to the idea that black women are less attractive because of it. Besides these are averages we are talking about not hard and fast rules.
For example I’m white and I run into several black men that are smaller and less “testosterony” (just made that word up) than me every day. And as a matter of fact once you actually spend a considerable amount of time around different groups of people you start to realize that these averages and statistics don’t mean anything because there is so much diversity within every group.
I think that the main reason white men may not find BW attractive is that we tend to not view them as fellow human beings or people. We see a black women and it’s like we don’t even bother to see anything else about them. Preconceptions get in the way and almost literally blind us to what’s right in front of our faces.
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Chuck hasn’t addresses the tidbit in his first link about black women having higher estrogen levels than white women. Instead, he sees that he wants to see, and jumps to T levels.
Am I the only that caught this.
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Hi Hathor,
Replies below:
H: I don’t know where you live, but only a short while ago, a black woman in the US could not work if she wore a natural hair style. Work is not something that has been optional for most of us, even if we have a husband and supportive family.
O: Then the above kinda contradicts itself. Bl;ack Women have always been a huge part of the Black American working force, going all the way back to the end of the Civil War, long before Madam CJ Walker came along. And of course, the millions of Black Women making use of her and subsequent products did so for reasons other than making them employable – as your parting shot below proves…
H: There was not a wanting to look white, it was demanded for a very long while. Put a girdle on that big butt, don’t wear too much color(this included black men), put that white powder on your face and don’t tie up that head, straighten or pull you hair back tight. Natural hair now isn’t exactly accepted in corporate jobs now. After a century of this pressure, you think it is easy to not buy into this and especially living in a culture where all women a made to be sensitive about their looks.
O: For one thing, corporate jobs are a recent phenomenon, most people didn’t work sitting in a cubicle all day. Secondly, Black Women themselves have made the choice to wear their hair a certain way; they alone can make the choice to change that. Some have, others haven’t. And none of what you said addresses the meat of my comment above: short Men and red-haired Men have and continue to face all manner of documented (UPenn, among a great many other studies) discrimination on the job and and off, and this includes that which comes from many of the very same Sistas and Women in general who take such extreme issue with posts and discussions like these. In another time such views would be considered hypocritical, if not at the very least inconsistent. In any event, these Men manage to find a way to get on with their lives, sans the fanfare and flailing about. Why can’t Black Women follow their example, Hathor?
H: On a more personal level, black men may say they like black women with natural hair, but it doesn’t play our like that. Women do what it takes to appeal to men.
O: Tru dat; so what’s the problem then? You either do what it takes to meet market demand, or you don’t.
*shrugs*
O.
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Also, for many years, Black women didn’t have the same access to the “feminine goodies” that White women did.
-Makeup was made to compliment very fair skin, and not dark skin.
-Hairstyles and hair products were created to suite White hair textures.
-Clothing was created in colors uncomplimentary to darker complexions, and fits were created in patterns uncomplimentary to fuller figures.
The percentage of disposable income that Black women could spend on Beauty was much lower, because they were kept much poorer, due to unfair prejudices,
ALL of these things influenced the “You’re Not as Feminine as Me” meme, for many years, until it became an assumed truth among White people.
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Hi Abagond,
Replies below:
A: Obsidian:
Chuck did not present evidence. He sprayed his comment with links he found in a Google search. Links he did not even quote from. I have seen my own posts presented as “evidence” in just that way for things I never said.
O: Fair enough; but how do you then deal with what I said in my comments above, about the realities shorter and red-haired Men face, not only in terms of the wider society, but also in terms of the dating world? Your response?
O.
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BTW Chuck, the scientific evidence that disproves HBD is waiting for you on the other thread.
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Hi King,
Replies below:
K: Also, for many years, Black women didn’t have the same access to the “feminine goodies” that White women did.
O: How then do you explain Madam Cj Walker, King? She was America’s first Woman millionaire, of ANY color…
K: -Makeup was made to compliment very fair skin, and not dark skin.
O: True; but then, Black Women bought products that actually lighten their skin, so…
K: -Hairstyles and hair products were created to suite White hair textures.
O: Again, Madam CJ Walker’s empire, and those who would follow in her footsteps as the 20th century progressed, directly challenges your claim…
K: -Clothing was created in colors uncomplimentary to darker complexions, and fits were created in patterns uncomplimentary to fuller figures.
O: How then do you explain things like the Harlem Renaissance, the Savoy dances, etc?
K: The percentage of disposable income that Black women could spend on Beauty was much lower, because they were kept much poorer, due to unfair prejudices,
O: Again, see Madam CJ Walker above, plus the fact that today Black Women spend billions of dollars per year on their hair and related products and services. See Chris Rock’s recent film on this, plus the Wall Street journal did a story on this as well.
K: ALL of these things influenced the “You’re Not as Feminine as Me” meme, for many years, until it became an assumed truth among White people.
O: Again, you would have to explain that which I’ve noted above, starting with Madam CJ Walker, running through to the present. Essence magazine is now in its fourth decade of continuous publication. Same with Ebony and Jet. *shrugs*
Good luck with that…
Holla back
O.
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Obsidian, Madame C,J. Walker was not competition to the bevy of brands out there available to White women.
Miss Walker was successful because she began to address the imbalance, not because her existence eliminated it.
The collective feminine beauty industry that was geared to White women was still light years ahead of Miss Walker, in resources, market, and in technology.
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O,
When you are become a Black woman, you can dispute my second paragraph.
This was the pressure when I was growing up. You don’t think women in the 19th century were not pressured to look or adopt whiteness to be acceptable. Your head is in the sand.
I could care less about what you said about red headed men.
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Hi Jason,
Replies below:
J: my problem with what chuck is saying isn’t whether or not blacks have more testosterone, that may be true. My problem is the jump from that to the idea that black women are less attractive because of it. Besides these are averages we are talking about not hard and fast rules.
O: Yes, but in the world in which we live, averages mean something. That’s just the way of the world, and we aren’t doing anyone any good by pretending otherwise. For whatever reason, Black Women are seen as more “sassy” than White or Asian Women. Sure, there are many examples where that’s not true all around, but perception is reality, and that’s the reality in aggregate when it comes to Black Women. Nor is this likely to change anytime soon.
J: For example I’m white and I run into several black men that are smaller and less “testosterony” (just made that word up) than me every day. And as a matter of fact once you actually spend a considerable amount of time around different groups of people you start to realize that these averages and statistics don’t mean anything because there is so much diversity within every group.
O: True, but that still doesn’t change the fact that, for example, virtually all of the long distance runners in the Olympics have been of East African origin, or that nearly all of the Olympic winning sprinters have been of West African origin, or that the NBA and NFL has virtually all Black teams, etc. In other words, there is such a thing as Human Bio Diversity, Jason. And there’s nothing wrong with admitting this. The issue with the HBDers, is in how they pervert a legitimate line of scientific inquiry and bend it to their own sociopolitical ends.
J: I think that the main reason white men may not find BW attractive is that we tend to not view them as fellow human beings or people. We see a black women and it’s like we don’t even bother to see anything else about them. Preconceptions get in the way and almost literally blind us to what’s right in front of our faces.
O: No doubt racism plays a role, especially prior to the end of the Civil War and the decades following it. But it still doesn’t rule out the simple fact that White Men may indeed perceive Asian Women and at least some White Women as being more dainty, feminine and and the like, than say, Serena Williams or Jennifer Hudson or even Beyonce’. Acknowledging this doesn’t mean that Black Women are doomed to a life of penury or ugly duckling status – all three of the Women mentioned above have no problem finding willing mates.
I also find it fascinating that to date, no one has addressed the points I’ve made wrt shorter and/or red-haired Men, and both of these conditions are a matter of genetics – are they not? Yet, Women and this includes Black Women, have no problem discriminating against such Men. If it’s OK to do it then, why is it NOT OK for it to be done to them? And more importantly, if these Men can find a way to get on with their lives in spite of such rank discrimination against them, sans all the fanfare and the like, what are Black Womens’ excuse?
Your response, sir?
O.
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Hi Hathor,
Replies below:
H: O,
When you are become a Black woman, you can dispute my second paragraph.
O: OK, so out comes the ad hominems – which as I always say, are the last refuge of scoundrels. You can’t address my point, so you attempt to dismiss it by appealing to authority – your own. Nice!
H: This was the pressure when I was growing up. You don’t think women in the 19th century were not pressured to look or adopt whiteness to be acceptable. Your head is in the sand.
O: We all face pressures growing up – that was my point when I mentioned shorter Men. They too face all manner of documented pressures in all spheres of life – yet, many of them learn to cope with it and to overcome it. Why can’t Black Women do the same, is my question. And a larger question I have is, why is it OK for Black Women themselves to be so blatantly bigoted against such Men, yet want to turnaround and cry discrimination when it comes to topics such as these? Are you telling me that YOU have personally sought out and dated Men who were say, significantly shorter than 5’6″, Hathor? Or Men who were red-haired?
H: I could care less about what you said about red headed men.
O: I suppose that answers my questions above…
O.
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O,
Corporate can mean working as a bank teller.
When I say corporate, I do not mean NGO’s or non-profit organizations.
Being in management may be relatively new, but there are Black women who do go into and are being trained in management. I know for a fact that they are told to have a certain wardrobe, hair isn’t stated, but there are code words used to indicate that natural hair isn’t desired.
Like I said when you become a Black woman in the work force, you might have some credibility. Or if you are a Black woman you have been incredibly lucky.
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Hi King,
Replies below:
K: Obsidian, Madame C,J. Walker was not competition to the bevy of brands out there available to White women.
O; Of course not, nor did I say or imply otherwise. She saw a market demand and met it, end of.
K: Miss Walker was successful because she began to address the imbalance, not because her existence eliminated it.
O: Walker was successful because she saw a demand that hadn’t been met by her competitors. Again, end of.
K: The collective feminine beauty industry that was geared to White women was still light years ahead of Miss Walker, in resources, market, and in technology.
O: Yet, as a direct result of Walker’s pioneering effort, today the Black haircare business is so lucrative that not only Whites have been moving in on it, but increasingly so have Asians. Again, please see the Wall Street Journal’s writeup about all this.
Waiting to hear back from you on what I’ve said about short and/or red-haired Men…
O.
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Hi Hathor,
Replies below:
H: Corporate can mean working as a bank teller.
When I say corporate, I do not mean NGO’s or non-profit organizations.
O; For one thing, Blacks haven’t historically worked in either setting, both were relatively recent developments. Non-sequitur anyone?
H: Being in management may be relatively new, but there are Black women who do go into and are being trained in management. I know for a fact that they are told to have a certain wardrobe, hair isn’t stated, but there are code words used to indicate that natural hair isn’t desired.
O: Then why can’t these Sistas follow Madam CJ Walker’s lead and form their own companies?
H: Like I said when you become a Black woman in the work force, you might have some credibility. Or if you are a Black woman you have been incredibly lucky.
O: I am a Black Man who just happens to have spent most of his entire life around and among Black Women. Not that this makes any difference or have any bearing on the actual evidence I have brought to bear on the discussion, but I thought it would be interesting to add that tidbit to it. In any event, you attempt at ad hominem is noted, and quite highly flawed.
Try again. 🙂
O.
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I believe it comes down to personal preference. Pepsi or Coke which one is better? U.S. society pollutes one;s mind to make white women the perceived the standard of beauty.
So answering your question Abagond, I think society makes them beautiful, the power majority is the one that sets the standards, rules, and regulations to make it so.
You can find all the research in the world to suit your personal stance on any issue. Hence the 2+2=5 scenario, which I believe was quite brilliant!
First time post, long time lurker 🙂
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O,
If you are a Black man you expect damn much from Black women you want them to do what you will not do.
You still did not address what I said about the pressure black women went through in the 19th century.
For your information before corporate jobs, grocery stores or retail stores weren’t all that interested in having black cashiers or associates with natural hair.
Since you are a Black man why don’t you actually talk to the black women you know, because you certainly don’t believe the Black women you talk on the net. Or do you in general just believe that the Black women here are posers as I believe you are. I remember other comments you have made on this blog.
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O,
BTW Black women do start up a lot of small businesses and are successful.
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O, I think maybe you are arguing a different point than I am. I am arguing to a lack of aesthetic parity (Between Black women and White women in past years) based on the asymmetrical allocation of resources and services to each group.
I am not arguing as to whether or not Madam C.J. Walker was meeting a market demand or not. The economics aspects of this may be interesting (to some) but this post is about the perceived aesthetic valuation of White women in this society, not on wether C.J. Walkers was a pioneer or not.
Got to go to work.
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“So many short Men and/or red-haired Men face all manner of documented discrimination all the time, on the job and off, and this includes rank discrimination and bigotry from Women too – yet, they soldier on and go about the business of living their lives. Why can’t Black Women just do the same? ”
eharmony and online dating sites are not valid sources for determining attraction…there are many attractive red-haired white men (although not all, i’m sure there are people on this blog who are red-haired, white men and they’re may be insecure and ugly)but in there are plenty of attractive red-haired men , such as Prince Harry. Don’t you think the red-haired stereotype is just something that is ALSO culturally-conditioned…you don’t exactly see alot of red heads on televsion or being held up as the ideal man. You don’t think this colors our perception?
In terms of “short men,” short is a relative term to me. I’m only 5’1, so to me 5’6 isn’t short and I would go for someone that height.
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Peanut,
The point is that Women don’t like to date or marry Men who are shorter than they are. Period – and we have all manner of evidence pointing to this fact. So what you said about “relative” height is irrelevant – the point is, you, at 5’1″, aren’t likely to seekout Men who are 4’10”. And you would be consistent with what Women deem attractive in Men accross racial, cultural and class lines.
Again: we can cite numerous documented studies that consistently shows how shorter Men are discriminated against in all manner of ways. Yet, they don’t seem to react so strongly to the crosses they bear in this life; they seem to get on with the business of living.
WHY can’t Black Women follow this simple, quiet example?
Your thoughts?
O.
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i’ve rarely seen men who are 4’10 at my age, the shortest man i’ve dated was 5’3″ though…and also I could argue that the short-tall man is also colored by societal influences/media
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Hathor,
I can see how this is a deeply personally sensitive topic for you, and as such it may not be possible to discuss the matter with any degree of impartiality or objectivity on your part, and for what it’s worth, I respect that. I think it might be time for us to just respectfully agree to disagree.
Thanks.
O.
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Peanut,
Again, the point is made: Women prefer taller Men. Period.
Do you deny this simple fact of life?
O.
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anyway back on topic, the point is bw are not inherently uglier or more masculine than ww
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peanut,
“So, do you think this “idealization of women who are more racially mixed…” applies to men as well.”
I was going to mention this, but this post is about women, so I didn’t. The answer is a resounding no.
This difference has been noted and there’s some book I saw on Amazon once about it. Essentially, the thesis is that light skin in many places throughout the world has been perceived as more feminine, whereas dark(er) skin has been seen as more masculine.
Yeah, the idea of light-skinned pretty boy does exist, but I bet if you polled a sampling of Black American women, using images of good looking guys of various hues, they’d tend to like the darker guys more. My assertion – not fact.
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and in terms of bw and testosterone…are any of you endocrinologist who specialize in discerning who is more tesosterone prone? Cuz I can ask someone who actually KNOWS what they’re talking about and whose JOB it is to deal w/ hormones and they’ll give a staight answer w/out using pseudo-scientific articles to reinforce their bigotry…
I am getting sick of this argument going on…i can’t even believe people are still discussing this…
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Peanut,
The issue is whether Men think so, and I would argue that the basic eyeball evidence in this regard is quite clear – yes, Black Women are seen, for whatever reason, not as beautiful as White or Asian Women. Please note that I have placed no value or moral judgment or endorsement on the matter, nor have I stated that I agree with such a view. Just merely pointing out a simple fact of day to day life – just like pointing out the simple fact that Women prefer taller Men to themselves, than Men considerably shorter than themselves.
O.
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O.
“Do you deny this simple fact of life?”
Yes, I do…
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“eharmony and online dating sites are not valid sources for determining attraction…”
why not? I think they are.
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Peanut,
Whatever the reason, Black Women, in aggregate, are seen as more “sassy” than are White or Asian Women. To attempt to argue anyone down about this, why it is, etc, et al, is really a waste of time, because it won’t change the minds of those who actually matter the most in this instance, and that’s Men. They can and will choose those Women they perceive, rightly ot wrongly, not to be as “sassy” as Black Women.
Just like Women, regardless of color or time period or social rank, will tend to choose Men who are taller them themselves rather than Men who are shorter than themselves, regardless as to other more sailient factors and features of such Men. Why this is so hard for you and other Black Women in this and other forums to accept and simply move on, is quite fascinating to me.
O.
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O
“yes, Black Women are seen, for whatever reason, not as beautiful as White or Asian Women. Please note that I have placed no value or moral judgment or endorsement on the matter, nor have I stated that I agree with such a view. ”
uh…don’t try and change your argument now…you didn’t say anything about people’s perceptions, you were implying that perception was fact. We know there is a beauty hierarchy in this society, no one ever said there wasn’t, I don’t think. What I was arguing is WHY bw are perceived as being uglier than ww. Some quacks on here were trying to imply that it’s the inherent masculinity of bw that causes bw to be on the bottom and I DISAGREE with that notion and it doesn’t make any sense to me.
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Peanut,
You do, huh? Alright then – on what empirical grounds do you deny this? Can you offer any evidence to the contrary?
O.
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O:
“Just like Women, regardless of color or time period or social rank, will tend to choose Men who are taller them themselves rather than Men who are shorter than themselves, regardless as to other more sailient factors and features of such Men. Why this is so hard for you and other Black Women in this and other forums to accept and simply move on, is quite fascinating to me.”
I have the right to defend my POV, just as you have the right to defend yours. I never said bw weren’t perceived as being on the bottom, I actually mentioned that I felt black women’s beauty WAS perceived as being on the bottom. WHAT I WAS DEBATING was the fact that it’s SOCIAL/CULTURAL INFLUENCE that colors this perception, not some inherent biological difference…BLACK WOMEN are a diverse group and its IMPOSSIBLE to label ALL BW as biologically inferior in looks to ww…that’s ridiculous and that was my point…if you paid attention. Again, as I said…beauty is beauty.
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Peanut,
You said:
“uh…don’t try and change your argument now…you didn’t say anything about people’s perceptions, you were implying that perception was fact. We know there is a beauty hierarchy in this society, no one ever said there wasn’t, I don’t think. What I was arguing is WHY bw are perceived as being uglier than ww. Some quacks on here were trying to imply that it’s the inherent masculinity of bw that causes bw to be on the bottom and I DISAGREE with that notion and it doesn’t make any sense to me.
”
O: I said that Chuck offered some degree of scholarship and scientific evidence to back up his assertions, which were challenged by Abagond himself, among others, and to which I conceded the point.
Personally, and I try very hard not to interject my personal views here or anywhere else, I really don’t think it’s relevant as to WHY Black Women are perceived as less attractive to the Whiter society at large as White Women or Asian Women; to me, the bottomline is, that they are. So, the question for me is, where do Black Women go from here? do they spend all their time attempting to change the minds of resistant White folk, White Men in particular? Or do they simply get on with the business of living their lives? This is the question faced by short Men, and by all accounts, they’ve done well, without all the flailing about and fanfare, which begs the question:
WHY can’t Black Women simply do the same?
Your response?
O.
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I said I disagreed w/ what you said…where is YOUR empirical evidence O…I didn’t see any…???
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O,
“Personally, and I try very hard not to interject my personal views here or anywhere else, I really don’t think it’s relevant as to WHY Black Women are perceived as less attractive to the Whiter society at large as White Women or Asian Women; to me, the bottomline is, that they are. So, the question for me is, where do Black Women go from here? do they spend all their time attempting to change the minds of resistant White folk, White Men in particular? Or do they simply get on with the business of living their lives? This is the question faced by short Men, and by all accounts, they’ve done well, without all the flailing about and fanfare, which begs the question:”
ummm…i think that bw ARE living their lives, they are out working and getting degrees and contributing the same as everyone else. so what are you talking about??? What you think bw are crying in a corner or something and not living their lives?? Many bw ARE living their lives, but if someone makes an ignorant comment, its the right of anyone who disagrees to CHALLENGE that POV, so what is your point and stop detracting from the point that i’m making by simply stating ” just get on with it…”
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BACK TO THE TOPIC!
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Peanut,
I don’t recall making the case that ALL Black Women were ugly ducklings. We’re talking about large groups in aggregate, not isolated, atomized individual cases. Again, there are many handsome short Men, but that doesn’t change the fact that Women prefer handsome taller Men. Why is that so hard for you to accept?
O.
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Peanut,
OK then, so let’s pursue your line of argument: that it is Society, in this case, one that is shaped and determined by Whites, that is the cause for deeming Black Women in toto, as unattractive.
OK – so what?
If all you say is true, that Black Women are indeed moving ahead with their lives in any event, what’s the disagreement?
My point is this: it doesn’t do Black Women as a group any good at all to be fighting these kind of “wars” online or off. They have much bigger fish to fry than whether so and so thinks they’re pretty or not for whatever reason or cause.
O.
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I’m done talking/debating w/ you O…i’m not repeating myself again. you can keep going on about it, but i’m no longer going to respond to you on this page.
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Translation: Peanut can’t engage the discussion on the merits raised…
LOL
O.
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O,
Throwing out ad hominem, and other logical fallacies doesn’t make your arguments true.
My intuition tells me that you think Black women ugly for the most part and you have some prurient interest in proving it.
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Hathor,
Ironic, your statements, since you engage in Ad Hominem yet again, LOL. And your intuition would be wrong, since I’ve dealt primarily with Black Women romantically, of my own volition, for the better part of my adult life (since 18). Again, it just isn’t possible to have a objective discussion with you, or Peanut, or most, not all but most, of the Black Women in this forum, because the topic cuts a bit too close to the quick for too many of you. Again, I get that.
So, again, we’ll just have to agree to disagree…hopefully, without being disagreeable…
O.
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*looks around at comments* *shakes head*
People who don’t have a background in certain subjects should not attempt to present themselves as experts in that subject. Not to be arrogant or exclusive, but it’s pretty obvious Chuck, et al don’t have a background in biochemistry or biology, period. And it makes me weep to see my beloved subjects butchered. I was trying to avoid commenting on this, since it seems clearly off-topic, but let’s clear up some misconceptions:
Mean testosterone levels alone tell us nothing about the role of testosterone in a given person’s body. Absolutely nothing.
It is well known to anyone with a background in biochemistry that
(a) the “right” level of testosterone depends on the individual and their particular genetic make-up because testosterone does not affect everyone equally
(b) testosterone levels vary depending on the stage of life, health, and numerous other factors, and most importantly
(c) other hormones, particularly estradiol and other estrogens, are antagonistic to testosterone, in fact, their levels are crucial to understand before any judgments regarding testosterone can be made.
Given these biological facts, it is sloppy at best and downright dishonest at worst, to conclude anything about “femininity” or “masculinity” from mean serum levels of testosterone.
But wait! That’s not the only place where Chuck erred, quite egregiously. The most important blooper is this, as King stated: nowhere in any of those sources does it state that black women have higher testosterone levels than white women.
The first source says that pregnant black women in their first trimester had higher testosterone levels than pregnant white women in their first trimester. Okay, this is not all black women and women are in their first trimester for less than 1 percent of their entire life. But also, the source says that they had higher estradiol and estrogens levels as well. Remember that estradiol and other estrogens are antagonistic to testosterone? There’s the “gotcha”.
The second source only mentions men, not women (that one is also inconclusive, but irrelevant to this discussion, for that reason).
The third source: see above on comments for the first source.
Chuck forgot to mention all of this because he clearly didn’t read the sources before posting them.
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Natasha W:
Thank you very much for clearing all that up!!!
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Natasha,
Good refutation of Chuck’s sources. Let’s see what he comes up with in response.
As for my point, it remains: people can and will make judgments based on a whole range of reasons, be they legitimately rooted in empirical study, or be they the stuff of stereotype, or some amalgamation of the two; so what? Why does it matter so much at the end of the day? Why can’t Black Women simply ignore that and get on with their lives? After all, this is what shorter Men have done – right?
O.
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yes natasha thank you
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@ O.
I think you were making some point about red heads and short men?
I don’t get it? A red head can just die his hair, cant he? How is that the same thing?
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I think it’s rather obvious that a mostly white (western) societies would try to portray WW more beautiful than BW. But of course it’s totally subjective.
I don’t let anybody tell me what I should or shouldn’t deem beautiful.
I think BW are beautiful, especially the ones posted by “peanut”. WA-WA-WOOOM! Currently, I’d go as far as choosing a beautiful BW over a beautiful WW -providing of course, that she possesses all the qualities I look for in a woman IN GENERAL. You know, the usual what EVERYBODY on this planet looks for in a partner: intelligence, sense of humor, kindness. etc, etc…and last but not the least, “chemistry”. I blame feromones for that instead of testosterones, tho. 😉
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Yes, good job, Natasha. I suspect somebody here is a subscriber to National Craniology Magazine…
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O,
“After all, this is what shorter Men have done – right?”
Men are taught to be stoic in the face of challenges of this type – that we’re not supposed to be complaining about getting neglected for being short. A complaining man is a soon-to-be clowned man.
This probably reflects the historical reality that men had more autonomous avenues open to them to improve their lot if life: men could always work, be the titular head of the household (even if the wife really ran things), possibly accumulate wealth and thereby attract a mate that way.
Historically, women had to rely moreso on their beauty and basic fitness for marriage (fertility, domesticity, etc.) in order to have a decent, safe life. In those times, probably especially after the industrial revolution brought people into the cities and out of the small villages, being perceived a spretty was a huge factor in getting a man.
Of course, things have changed drastically and far fewer women need men for day-to-day survival. BUT. The old ideas that beauty is super important still are around, and alot of women still seem to base alot of their sense fo self-worth on it.
I find that women laregly are blowing alot of hot air when they declare theyd on’tw ant a short man. It’s definitely insensitive, and most of the women who openly say that stuff seem to not realize they have all these unpacked prejudices that are problematic. But they seem to toss alot fo that stuff out teh window once they get to know the guy. I suspect alot of shorter dudes have learned this as well.
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Curiously, at least here in Finland less than 100 years ago, woman’s most valuable asset was that she was HARD-WORKING. Good looks were a plus, but not a deciding factor. In an agrarian society, strong hands were more important than high cheekbones.
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Rolo said:
“As far as what society is trying to tell you is beautiful, can’t we just point out the obvious? This is a consumer society, filled primarily with white people. White people are marketed to, with white things.”
Like what Nate said, if it were all about market forces or appealing to the masses, then brown-haired, brown-eyed white women would be pushed as the most beautiful – in advertising, in Hollywood and in high fashion. Instead they push an idea of beauty that even most white women can never reach by natural, healthy means.
The number of black, Middle Eastern and particularly East Asian models used by the fashion industry does not begin to match the customer base. It is not the 1950s any more.
“The way you phrase things sometimes Abagond, you seem to think white peoples main objective is to demoralize black people rather than the obvious, which is sell things. “
Nowhere in this post did I say what white people INTEND in regard to black people. Nor is what you say how I think of it. To me it comes down to the simple fact that whites have way more power to pump out images to the whole world of what they regard as beautiful, so much so it affects everyone.
The side effects of that on blacks and East Asians are not good, but I doubt white image creators even think about that kind of stuff much less intend it. Most of them would probably regard this post as “odd” just like you did.
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Good point on replication value, Hannu.
Desirability is seen by different people in different cultures for different reasons. This great mistake is when someone thinks that their own scales are suitable to weigh the rest of the world.
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Hannu,
“In an agrarian society, strong hands were more important than high cheekbones.”
This is what I was getting at with the idea that the Industrial Revolution probably changed this alot by pulling people into the orbit of the cities, and away from the rural areas.
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@ abagond
“Like what Nate said, if it were all about market forces or appealing to the masses, then brown-haired, brown-eyed white women would be pushed as the most beautiful – in advertising, in Hollywood and in high fashion. Instead they push an idea of beauty that even most white women can never reach by natural, healthy means.”
Except that you can sell blondness to the masses in a bottle and thus capitalize on the differences created between the marketing ideal and the statistical reality.
Marketing is about creating an itch
Sales is about charging by the scratch
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And Natasha, I meant Chuck of course, not you.
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Natasha W, FTW!
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FTW? Biker slogans, eh? 😀
What was the babble about short guys? I’m 173 cm, fat and ugly as a freak from a horror show, long haired, goatee and tattoos but I have dated a model who was, not only 20yrs younger, but also 183cm tall. And I have no money, Obsidian, no money at all. I wonder why she was with me?? Hmm…
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Whites have more power? What about the rich people in Arabic countries or South America? All women are beautiful, regardless of colour or race. People´s perception of beauty changes not just from country to country but from person to person.
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Ah…I see a space maybe I can comment now…
Well. I am pleased to see this further clarified and debunked by Natasha’s excellent authoritative critique so we can put Chuck’s, apparent, degree of scholarship and scientific evidence to one side.
Why “O” you would cite this in the first place mystifies me. Unless of course you were seeking to “bait” women into an argument.? Just as well you’ve conceded this as a point then.
But thats not the main thrust of your argument anyway this is:
Lets examine some of this statement.
“…I really don’t think it’s relevant as to WHY Black Women are perceived as less attractive to the Whiter society at large... as White Women or Asian Women; to me, the bottomline is, that they are. So, the question for me is, where do Black Women go from here?”
Really…???? Its not relevant?. Well you are entitled to your view but I would have to disagree. In the same way the title of this thread: “Are white women beautiful or is it society that makes it seem so” is also relevant to your question.
You can ignore both statements, as you say, and go on from there. But exactly where does this lead you as a Black person? And I say person because it doesn’t just affect Black women it affects men too. Though obviously, it affects both in different ways. In TRUTH it effects everyone regardless of colour. This too is a given
Such is the nature of racism and its effects. Just ignoring it doesn’t make it go away. Particular in the minds or PERCEPTIONS of people as PEANUT has already pointed out. Taking on board both of those statements in the minds of Black people – unchallenged. Can lead to all sorts of peculiar internalized perceptions of what is and what is not perceived as beautiful.
But then this is nothing new. Franz Fannon wrote about it in “Black Skins White masks”
Its that core belief that determines your perception. So if you believe, with out fundamentally challenging and substituting alternatives, in either of those two statements above. It will lead you to sub-consciously endorse or even promote them.
This is why “O” I would say they are relevant. Though I remain open to hear your view about why you believe they should not be so.
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@ Kwamla
Well said!
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We’re talking about generalities here. All generalities are dangerous -even this one, as some wise man once said.
Meaning that even if someone like me has some (or several) preferences what a woman should be like, when I actually meet a woman and hit off with her, I’m ready to make fairly big compromises. So, even if I’d prefer a BW, I wouldn’t turn down a WW or AW (least attracted to) just based on their ethnicity.
If you turn down a good woman just because she’s black, I smell a whiff of racism…
I fail to understand how short guys have anything to do with any of this. And for the record, I know a lot of short guys who are not “over with it”. Excluding my compatriot sam.
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Kwamla,
You remind me of a friend of mine, though I can’t quite put my finger on why. 🙂
Taking blog posts (in particular) to the meta-level always seems like an exercise in futility to me. People write about what they want to write about–unless they’re getting paid by their readers I don’t know why whether it’s “important” or not is even an issue. Some people blog about race, others blog about footies–that’s their prerogative. I don’t really buy blogs as insight into one’s feelings and motivations–Abagond isn’t a White woman, so does it mean something that he has a blog post about White women? (Does he secretly want to be one–kidding! :-P)
The only thing I notice is that people who comment most frequently (especially those who write novellas every time) seem to be much more invested in comments as real-time conversation than those who don’t. I personally don’t take a response to a comment (or lack thereof) as an indication of priorities, but different strokes for different folks, I guess.
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Thanks for that quote Kwamala. I can definitely relate to that feeling of cognitive dissonance. I have come to embrace it as an indication that I need to rethink my beliefs if I really want to find the truth.
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Hannu,
Good question. I can’t really speak on short men since to this day I only personally know one man who’s shorter than I am–a friend I made this summer who’s 5’2”. A conversation on short men can’t really happen unless you find a big enough group of women who are consistently taller than most men, otherwise it’s a non sequitur.
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excellent response kwamla , excellent. thank you.
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Well, I’m 6’1″, so I’m really not bothered. 😀
But I sometimes see guys who try to overcompensate their lack of height by pumping iron.
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Tyrone says,
Blackwomen are innocent victims of racial bulls$$t they have nothing to do with. Whitewomen want to maintain the political and economic clout they have attained due in large part to slavery and colonialism, which explains why sistas have such a hard time in the fashion and modeling industry……If whitewomen are so much better looking, why block access for blackwomen and other women of african and asian ancestry? Money and power are the motivating factors, not beauty!!!
laromana says,
Tyrone, thanks for standing up in defense of BW and for CHALLENGING/CONDEMNING ANTI-BW RACISM which is such a fundamental aspect of the American beauty hierarchy.
jason says,
I think that the main reason white men may not find BW attractive is that we tend to not view them as fellow human beings or people. We see a black women and it’s like we don’t even bother to see anything else about them. Preconceptions get in the way and almost literally blind us to what’s right in front of our faces.
laromana says,
jason, thanks for HONESTLY stating the FACT that ANTI-BW RACISM is the MAIN reason MOST American WM don’t treat BW like NORMAL, HUMAN WOMEN.
Maybe if more WM who think this way would OWN up to their ANTI-BW RACISM/ANTI-BW COWARDICE people would STOP BLAMING BW for their MISTREATMENT in American media/society.
Nate says,
I do agree that beauty is in all races of women, body types, etc. but this type of response (shrugs at preference for white women, the side eye at preference for black women) seems to point to something else going on.
laromana says,
Nate, you hit the nail on the head. There’s ALWAYS an ANTI-BW bias when it comes to how Black beauty is perceived/appreciated relative to NON-BLACK beauty and so many seem to want to deny this FACT instead of CHALLENGING/CONDEMNING it.
Hathor says,
O,
When you are become a Black woman, you can dispute my second paragraph.
This was the pressure when I was growing up. You don’t think women in the 19th century were not pressured to look or adopt whiteness to be acceptable. Your head is in the sand.
I could care less about what you said about red headed men
peanut says,
Also, I don’t understand why people need to constantly bash bw and uplift ww at the same time…if ww are so great, then get the f*ck off this blog, get your azz out there and get one… and leave the rest of us in peace.
ummm…i think that bw ARE living their lives, they are out working and getting degrees and contributing the same as everyone else. so what are you talking about??? What you think bw are crying in a corner or something and not living their lives?? Many bw ARE living their lives, but if someone makes an ignorant comment, its the right of anyone who disagrees to CHALLENGE that POV, so what is your point and stop detracting from the point that i’m making by simply stating ” just get on with it…”
maruja de lujo says,
But Abagond doesn’t write posts about which men are more attractive, does he? It’s only women who are endlessly rated according to their appearance. He’s not unusual. A lot of people see women only in terms of their sexual attractiveness to men.
So it seems a bit rich to accuse black women of obsessing about this topic
laromana says,
Hathor, peanut, and maruja de lujo, EXCELLENT responses to O.
I’m not sure why this DERAILER has been harping on an example that is not only NOT RELEVANT to the topic (Are WW beautiful or is it society that makes them seem so?) but INSISTS on presenting a FALSE ANALOGY/DRAWING a FALSE CONCLUSION between the UNIQUE/SINGULAR NEGATIVE EXPERIENCES BW in America face due to ANTI-BW RACISM and the experiences of “short” men/red headed men. One has NOTHING to do with the other
O says,
I really don’t think it’s relevant as to WHY Black Women are perceived as less attractive to the Whiter society at large as White Women or Asian Women; to me, the bottomline is, that they are.
laromana says,
It’s so ANNOYING to see this TIRESOME MEME (BW are “PERCEIVED AS LESS ATTRACTIVE THAN WW/AW)ENDLESSLY REPEATED without presenting the PROPER HISTORICAL CONTEXT behind this ASSUMPTION.
WM in America HAVE NOT ALWAYS CONSIDERED AW to be BEAUTIFUL/ACCEPTABLE to DATE/MARRY. There was a time when MOST American WM DISCRIMINATED against AW and used RACIST ANTI-AW STEREOTYPES/ANTI-AW “SCIENTIFIC FACTS” to justify their MISTREATMENT of AW (much like they CONTINUE to do with BW).
The MAIN reason MOST WM in America NO LONGER TREAT AW in a RACIST manner (but CONTINUE TO DISCRIMINATE AGAINST BW) ISN’T BECAUSE BW ARE LESS ATTRACTIVE THAN AW but because they DECIDED, long ago, to DECLARE AW ACCEPTABLE to DATE/MARRY and REMOVE ANY STIGMA ATTACHED to WM/AW IRR’S.
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Hi Jasmin,
Replies below:
J: Hannu,
Good question. I can’t really speak on short men since to this day I only personally know one man who’s shorter than I am–a friend I made this summer who’s 5’2”. A conversation on short men can’t really happen unless you find a big enough group of women who are consistently taller than most men, otherwise it’s a non sequitur.
O: No, with all due respect, we have quite a bit of everyday evidence that we can all see with our own eyes what the deal is here, its just that so many of you refuse to deal with it because it threatens you as Black Women. The reality is that Women accross the board prefer taller Men than themselves as mates, than shorter Men than themselves as mates. Emphasis on the word “prefer” as well as “themselves”. We can find evidence of this all over the place – and whether we can debate all day long as to whether Black Women have higher levels of T than White or Asian Women do, ie, genetic basis for their disadvantageous position in the American sexual marketplace (SMP), what can’t be denied is that a Man’s height does indeed have a genetic component to it. And value and moral judgments made on this have been documented in this regard. Again, UPenn among a great many others is just one example.
If the point of this discussion is to determine to what extent “society” and by extension, “racism” plays in exalting one group of Women, in this case White Women, over others, in this case, Black Women, and we agree as per Abagond’s premise that much of it does indeed have a societal cause and focus, what are we then to say about the rank social and in this case dating discrimination about shorter Men? Surely, based on all the anecdotal and empirical evidence we have, this is the case – and yet, shorter Men simply don’t respond to it in the same manner that Black Women seem to. for example, there is no industry that makes billions of dollars per annum selling elevator shoes to shorter Men – certainly none that markets height corrective surgery, or growth hormones that promise every Man will at the least meet the average American Male height of 5’10”. Yet on the other hand, as I have noted earlier, the WSJ has documented the billions of dollars Black Women in our time have spent and continue to spend, in an effort to meet a particular look or beauty standard. There are actual discussions surrounding such issues, like this one right now, and so forth. All I am simply asking is, why can’t Black Women simply follow the quiet and dignified example of shorter Men, who despite the slings and arrows of all manner of discrimination socially and professionally and romantically, somehow figure out how to get on with their lives?
What gives?
Comments?
O.
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I’ve been skimming the responses, so I’m not sure if this has been brought up. With all the emphasis on white women being the standard of beauty, why is there a preponderance of eating disorders and running to the doctors to get plastic surgery, or getting their skin tanned? I’m not looking at statistics or research, but it is well-known and common. It is growing in communities of color as well, but I wonder why it happens more with white women if they are the standard? These are important issues that at times get ignored without looking at the effects of the pressures to live up to a certain standard on self-esteem.
I’m a black female, who doesn’t look like the average black female (in terms of shape and size). Since my color cancels me out according to society, it would make sense for me to want to change everything to “fit in.” With that said, I don’t care who does or doesn’t accept me. If you are unable to look at me as a human being with feelings, as an individual, and accept for me for who I am, then I don’t want you in my life. If I don’t need surgery to keep me alive, I’m not getting it for no man or society. I think the challenge for most women and probably men is to accept self, and not allow the pressures of others to have that effect on you. It’s not easy, and it doesn’t mean I don’t wish I looked different, but it helps to take a stand on what’s really important.
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Deevine,
Excellently well put. Thank you!
O.
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@ laromana
I thought you might appreciate that.
But seriously. It’s real. The idea that black women are less attractive IS RACISM (now you got me hitting caps) and nothing else. Really what it is is a narrowing of the standards of beauty so that black women’s features fall outside of the norm. It’s a 100% artificial standard and it’s BULLSHIT! What we see as beautiful is partially hardwired but it is also conditioned.
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Most people prefer those that look like themselves (on average). That’s just human nature. There’s nothing inherently wrong with that.
So given that US society is predominantly Caucasian, the general standard of beauty is Caucasian. It’s really no deeper than that. Beauty is beauty no matter what one’s race happens to be and more and more people date or marry across racial lines. But most folks do not.
Wailing and gnashing one’s teeth that white men tend to find white women more attractive (or vice versa) or calling such preferences “racist” is silly. There are of course racists who actually like to “date” interracially and there are “non-racists” who wouldn’t think of doing such a thing.
Black men do not evidently think that Black women as a whole are less attractive because otherwise they wouldn’t be dating, marrying and/or reproducing with them. And vice versa.
As long as the US is still over 66% White, I wouldn’t expect the beauty standard to reflect anything too different from that.
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jas0nburns
@ laromana
I thought you might appreciate that.
But seriously. It’s real. The idea that black women are less attractive IS RACISM (now you got me hitting caps) and nothing else. Really what it is is a narrowing of the standards of beauty so that black women’s features fall outside of the norm. It’s a 100% artificial standard and it’s BULLSHIT! What we see as beautiful is partially hardwired but it is also conditioned.
Shady_Grady says,
So given that US society is predominantly Caucasian, the general standard of beauty is Caucasian. It’s really no deeper than that. Beauty is beauty no matter what one’s race happens to be and more and more people date or marry across racial lines. But most folks do not.
Wailing and gnashing one’s teeth that white men tend to find white women more attractive (or vice versa) or calling such preferences “racist” is silly. There are of course racists who actually like to “date” interracially and there are “non-racists” who wouldn’t think of doing such a thing
laromana says,
jas0nburnsm thanks for that comment. You totally get it.
Shady_Grady , you’ve OBVIOUSLY MISSED the POINT of this post.
NO ONE has said that Whites/NON-BLACKS are OBLIGATED to be ATTRACTED TO/DATE/ MARRY BW or that there is “SOMETHING WRONG” if they don’t.
What we ARE SAYING is that White beauty standards should not be PROMOTED AT THE EXPENSE OF BW/BLACK BEAUTY.
It’s BEYOND OBVIOUS that America has HISTORICALLY PROMOTED ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE in American culture/media and that this has had a NEGATIVE EFFECT on BW’s lives.
ANTI-BW RACISM has also had a MAJOR NEGATIVE EFFECT on the way MANY BM view/treat BW to the point that ANTI-BW BM PUBLICLY ATTACK the HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY of BW and ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO DO THE SAME.
ANTI-BW RACISM is a SERIOUS PROBLEM that needs to CONFRONTED/CONDEMNED not MINIMIZED as something that is “SILLY” as you put it.
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i agree with usagi and deevine. women should love what they have and stop thinking in order to be beautiful you must change who you are.
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Jason,
Would you also say the same thing of Women who have a marked preference for Men taller than themselves? Is that hardwired or BIGOTRY?
Hmm?
O.
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@ sam
@chuck: just observing your comments here, seems to me that you are trying to emphesize the masculinity of the black women vs. femininity of the white women. You talk about how attractive “very young women” are and how repulsive the masculine black women are for the “majority”, but as we all know, you talk about yourself.
I might be wrong here, but from your posts I get the impression that for you this whole debate is about insecurity of your own sexuality.
Fascinating analysis! I thinking something similar, something along the lines of “testosterone/masculinity = intimidating”.
It’s not the “I don’t find them attractive” factor. It’s the “I can’t get one, so I’m going to pull a sour grapes” factor.
@ Shady_Grady
Wailing and gnashing one’s teeth that white men tend to find white women more attractive (or vice versa)
Finding “one’s own” more attractive is not the problem. Defending that attractiveness is not the problem. It’s going out of the way to declare of everyone else inherently inferiority that’s the problem.
Personally, I’m beginning to find it amusing. Because anyone who’s that hellbent on making people believe they’re inferior is a sad, pathetic individual which some deep-seated issues. *shrugs* God’s will has been done for them; they will eventually choke on their haterade and die forgotten.
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Hi everyone, long time lurker here.
theobsidianfiles, I honestly do not understand why you continue to compare the plight of black women in this country to that of short or red-haired men. There simply is no comparison. Our history is not similar and then is no connection between us. Black women have always been ridiculed for simply being, society has taught us that not only do we not look “right”, we also don’t act “right”, we don’t live “right”, our feelings aren’t “rigt”. Short men or red haired men may be discriminated against, but their value as a human person is not questioned, their worth is not questioned, there are no blogs or websites or books that have been published to demean and degrade them simply for being. I am sure black women would love to move on, to not be reminded of our melanin everyday, to not have our femininity questioned, our worth or value questioned, but until the rest of society moves on from that, we surely can not.
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“they will eventually choke on their haterade and die forgotten.”
cosign
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@ O
Well most of the leading men in Hollywood seem to be quite short in real life i’ve noticed. So you could argue that they are quite well represented.
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@ little_missy
I wanted to say as much but couldn’t find the words, well said.
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“It’s not the “I don’t find them attractive” factor. It’s the “I can’t get one, so I’m going to pull a sour grapes” factor.”
Which goes right back to cognitive dissonance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fox_and_the_Grapes
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I just don’t understand how any adult man (black, white or otherwise) could be so interested in making sure black women know they are ugly, know they are not valued, and know that they are on the bottom of the social ladder at best, and not on the social ladder at all at worst. Its ridiculous and rather strange in my opinion.
I used to tutor young girls when I was in college, and I will never forget the day when this gorgeous brown-eyed, dark skinned 16 year girl told me that she wished that she had never been born because the world treats her like she doesn’t exist. She then began to explain to me why all her features were ugly. All I could do was hug that little girl, her spirit was so broken.
I don’t understand how men could be so invested in making sure beautiful, vibrant black girls feel this way, it doesn’t make any sense to me.
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“I don’t understand how men could be so invested in making sure beautiful, vibrant black girls feel this way, it doesn’t make any sense to me.”
I don’t think that anyone at present is consciously invested. I think people are just continuing to reinforce old patterns without really thinking about it. At this point it is totally an institutional practice that just grinds people down like the girl you spoke of.
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physically speaking yes there is beautifull white women, but there is ugly ones too.i don’t consider the hair and skin color to be beauty, i go by facial features.i don’t consider every blue eyes or every pointy noise to be pretty. but as someone says they are overly exaggerated worldwide. some of the black men i see with white women are barely average. look at t.v in america . i’m pretty much sick and tired of seeing the same looks over and over again. the same scenario, the same culture the same personalites being marketed. the same one or two blacks that have to play that safe role. i watch nollywood movie now which is african movies which i see beautifull black people . i also will watch tyler perry.
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Look… all women are beautiful but society has made white women the defaulted “woman” and othered the remainder of the races. So as a blanket answer to the question – “yes and no” – but ask me if they are overexposed? Ya a whole lot.
Variety is the spice of life, any man who makes the media brainwash him into only seeing one beauty is a fool.
Observe:
http://halloftheblackdragon.com/ldcafe/top100.php
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@little_missy–
“I just don’t understand how any adult man (black, white or otherwise) could be so interested in making sure black women know they are ugly, know they are not valued”
THIS!
“I don’t understand how men could be so invested in making sure beautiful, vibrant black girls feel this way, it doesn’t make any sense to me.”
AND THIS!
what in the hell is wrong with these men who have convinced themselves that they are in some kind live or die competition with black women & girls?
they are going after those with the least power & influence. which should tell us all that they are cowardly, insecure & inferior men–you know, the LEAST of men.
@jas0nburns–
believe it. they are thoroughly invested.
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laromana wrote:
“What we ARE SAYING is that White beauty standards should not be PROMOTED AT THE EXPENSE OF BW/BLACK BEAUTY. ”
In a society which is mostly white, the dominant standard of beauty is going to be …wait for it…. WHITE. I don’t think this is particularly surprising. There are plenty of magazines and other print/electronic media directed at black consumers that have slightly different beauty standards and tend to promote different types of women. These magazines or other forms of media are in the minority because well blacks are in the minority. Again nothing surprising here.
You wrote
“Much later in her life, Sophia admitted that one of her grandparents was Black. This really helped to explain Sophia’s unique beauty in comparison to most of the WW of her generation (since she’s part Black).”
1) Again -do you have any citation for this. I would be interested in it if you did.
2) Whether that was true or not how is that any different from a white person claiming that Halle Berry or Alicia Keys or Paula Patton have a unique beauty compared to other black women because they are part white?
Every group on average thinks that its own group is the best looking, the prettiest, the most handsome, etc, etc, etc. Whites are not different in that regard. If we are waiting for a white dominated media to start promoting black ideals of beauty..well bring a lunch.
Ankhesen wrote
“Finding “one’s own” more attractive is not the problem. Defending that attractiveness is not the problem. It’s going out of the way to declare of everyone else inherently inferiority that’s the problem.”
Yes, but on some level that’s a distinction without a difference. If someone has a strong preference for women with yellow or red straight hair, slender busty frame, light colored eyes, and aquiline noses there will be by definition few black women that meet that standard. If that someone happens to own a media conglomerate his preference may feel to others like he’s saying they are inherently inferior but it’s not necessarily so. It’s preference.
SI, Maxim, and the other (white) lad magazines rarely have black women on the cover-when they do the black women usually look like stereotypical white women in one fashion or another. Why? Because that’s what the editors want and more importantly that’s what sells. Nobody is trying to lose money. People should stop focusing so much on preferences or media that’s not aimed at them.
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little missy i don’t think all men invest their time trying to make little black girls insecure. i think men think with their you know what . they are also competitive and white is considered to be the highest standard of beauty in america. so they feel they gain something. the little black girls today need not only to be told that they are beautifull. they also need to love and value themself. if you have espect for yourself any man could respect that beauty is not all about the face. work with what you have and carry it well. thats a trick some of them need to know. sometimes its not darkskin, whiteskin. women always want all the beauty. work with what you have.
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Medium, it would be an incredible step up if black women were JUST called unattractive, but it is not just our looks that is questioned on a daily basis, it is out ENTIRE existence. We are not even valued on the basic human level, we are seen and treated as almost non-human creatures who just happen to have vag**as. Its so crazy
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@ Greg Dragon
This sexy young songbird survived an assault by her punk ass boyfriend Chris Brown and has taken refuge under the protection of rapper Don Jay-Z… okay I kid, I kid.
LMAO – you’ve got quite a collection there! Did you do that all yourself?
@ jas0n
I don’t think that anyone at present is consciously invested.
I think it’s consciously acceptable to trash black women in America. Not even Michelle Obama has been immune, and she hasn’t done anything to invoke valid ire.
People bash us to make themselves feel better. Or they do it because they’re bored and want to start drama. Either way, I think it’s perfectly conscious, especially when you take the childhood of every black woman who went to to school and grew up with white kids. They do it…because they can. Do they know they’re causing damage or being racist? I’ll quote Mira and say, “They don’t care”…especially at the adolescent stage.
At the adult stage, I realize it’s mostly sour grapes. Face it…BM/WW marriages – not just relationships and offspring – but actual marriages are on the rise. They may not be the majority of marriages, but that doesn’t change the fact they are on the rise.
WM in America don’t have that kind of success with black women (but hear tell, WM in Britain do, so it ain’t the skin factor). We’re not undesirable, not in the least. In fact, it’s the direct opposite.
People don’t go overboard to hate on an actual loser. Human beings don’t care about people who don’t have anything they want or can’t do anything for them. Because remember, I’m not talking about black women being ignored. I’m talking about when people exert real energy to get up and come after us. *chuckles*
‘Cause I’ve spent most of my adult life having white women tell me they want my hair, love my skin, and so on and so forth. Seriously, I’ve spent my days being told by white women that I’m gorgeous. Then again…I live in Appalachia, and white folks out here, in their own way, tend to be civilized.
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here is an example of white women being given a beauty advantage: http://www.hulu.com/watch/86728/battle-of-the-bods-nerds–cheerleaders?c=Reality-and-Game-Shows#s-p1-so-i0
notice how the black girls are lambasted on the show when really they’re no worse looking than the white women…this is exactly what i’m talking about
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“believe it. they are thoroughly invested.”
I mean, I am they. Everything I said above about not seeing black women as women comes from observing my own behavior, prejudice etc. That is exactly the kind of thing that makes little_missy’s girl feel invisible. When you look through someone like they aren’t even there.
That’s something that I would say I was complicit in but never felt invested in personally because I was never aware of it.
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little missy said,
“I used to tutor young girls when I was in college, and I will never forget the day when this gorgeous brown-eyed, dark skinned 16 year girl told me that she wished that she had never been born because the world treats her like she doesn’t exist. She then began to explain to me why all her features were ugly. All I could do was hug that little girl, her spirit was so broken.
I don’t understand how men could be so invested in making sure beautiful, vibrant black girls feel this way, it doesn’t make any sense to me.”
Truly saddening…truly saddening…
Shady said,
“Wailing and gnashing one’s teeth that white men tend to find white women more attractive (or vice versa) or calling such preferences “racist” is silly. There are of course racists who actually like to “date” interracially and there are “non-racists” who wouldn’t think of doing such a thing.”
I don’t think anyone on here is beggin wm for acceptance. what most of us dislike is the disrespect.
LET’S GET ONE THING STRAIGHT I would expect majority of wm to prefer their own race…there is nothing wrong with that. But just because that is their preference does not mean there is something wrong with bw merely because we are not “their preference.” There is no need to go out of your way to degrade our image and YES the media DOES go out of its way to degrade our image and so does society in general.
Calling people nappy-headed hoes for no reasons, attacks against Michelle Obama, pictures of bw as apes on the internet. Then I can’t tell you how annoying it is that in almost every damn romantic comedy where a ww is the lead they ALWAYS got the obese, jive-talking, head-twirling black woman as the antithesis to the “white woman goddess.” He’s Just Not that Into You is a prime example. Then that stupid lifetime movie “what color is love,” is another example. Only in America can you make a movie about a white woman who CHEATS w/ a married bm, gets pregnant and then cops an attitude at his black wife and SHE STILL is made to be the hero at the end…let’s see a lieftime movie about a bw who cheats w/a married wm and gets pregant and becomes the hero…I’m still waiting for that one… I mean its just ridiculous…
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I think most wm just are not consciously aware of how prejudiced they are, that is just my experience. I remember this white guy made the comment that “it was stupid to have a Miss Black America because they didn’t have a Miss White America.” What this white guy didn’t realize was that the reason we needed things like Miss Black America is because every damn day is miss white america. When I turn on the tv all I see is white women all day, when I go to the movies that’s all I see…but in his mind he doesn’t see anything odd about that…he just sees it as the norm because he’s only conditioned to see things from his dominant white male perspective. I honestly think that he wasn’t trying to be vicious, but he was just so oblivious and that is the saddest thing to be.
I also have known wm to casually refer to Michelle O as “handsome” and not think anything of it…so that racism is there.
They may not consciously be aware of how they contribute to the defeminization and disrespect of bw, but they do.
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jason says…
“I mean, I am they. Everything I said above about not seeing black women as women comes from observing my own behavior, prejudice etc. That is exactly the kind of thing that makes little_missy’s girl feel invisible. When you look through someone like they aren’t even there.”
yep, yep.
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I just have to say this to any black girls that may read this blog or see this post: You are beautiful,you are valuable, you are lovable, worthy, you are feminine. Your features are unique and perfectly yours, they don’t need to be fixed or changed. It is not abnormal that you want to be seen and treated as a human person. It is ok to cry, to laugh, to have a bad day, to smile, to giggle. When you look in the mirror, that woman looking back at you is perfect, she is not too dark, her hair isn’t too kinky, her features aren’t incorrect. It may take a while for you to see and acknowledge the beauty that you possess but I promise you that it is there. When you feel down, sad, scared and lonely just know that there are millions of people all over the world that look like you, and they think you are amazing, I certainly do.
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@jas0nburns–
i was addressing those who, due to their own inferiority demons, viciously attack black women & are determined that black women “admit to their inherent worthlessness.” these types really do have a great deal invested in their particular kind of hate speak.
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Honestly, I think that there is much more putting down of BW today then there was in past decades.
If you go back far enough, there was really no need to put the Black woman down—all Black people were already down based on the general racial oppression of the age. But, as time has gone on, Black women have become more free, more economically viable, more powerful, and more expressive in American culture.
To be honest, it wasn’t until Black women began to really stand as equals, and challenge the White Beauty Standard that I began to see this loud and wholesale putting down of Black women en masse.
When Black singers, and movie stars, and talk show hosts, and newscasters, and models began to truly come into their own, and were recognized as beautiful, not just by Black men, but by all men, that’s exactly when I began to notice this campaign to put down the Black woman.
Maybe it’s just me.
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Chuck i’m curious King, how much have you read about HBD and why do you think that it is quack science? let’s start with an easy one for you: why are black men more athletic than white men?
chuck this varies greatly with culture, you do know that right? Some cultures emphasize the importance of sports moreso than others.
Why are some groups of European men so athletic compared to some groups of African men?
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A lot of you keep saying how people tend to be more attracted to their race. While that is true, I think that it is more affected by our society than our instincts. If any of you have friends or live in a community of different ethnic and racial backgrounds, you will see that many people find others attractive DESPITE racial or ethnic make up. Now, just because they find those people attractive does not mean they will marry and produce offspring with them. There’s the difference.
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little missy I don’t understand how men could be so invested in making sure beautiful, vibrant black girls feel this way, it doesn’t make any sense to me
It makes those men feel beter about themselves.
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http://www.hulu.com/watch/86728/battle-of-the-bods-nerds–cheerleaders?c=Reality-and-Game-Shows#s-p1-so-i0
i hope the people noted this remark @ 15:33 this falls in line w/ EXACTLY what were talking about when we say bw are stereotyped as being masculine…there was nothing masculine about the dark-skinned bw nothing not to me atleast…
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“A lot of you keep saying how people tend to be more attracted to their race. While that is true, I think that it is more affected by our society than our instincts. If any of you have friends or live in a community of different ethnic and racial backgrounds, you will see that many people find others attractive DESPITE racial or ethnic make up. Now, just because they find those people attractive does not mean they will marry and produce offspring with them. There’s the difference.”
I agree its social conditioning…
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I’m sure every woman here has had men of all races take a second glace at them or smile when they were walking down the street. Lets not forget that men will screw an animal, each other(not gay) or even a piece of fruit it they get desperate enough. So the question isn’t whether or not blk women are desirable because we are without a doubt.
The issue is this… Men look at women as possessions. To a man it’s my house, my car, my stamp collection and my woman. Men also like to pull rank with other men. A woman who his seen as high value by other men will be more appealing to most men than a better looking girl who isn’t as coveted. Take Amber Rose and compare her to the best looking girl/woman you know. Most men would prefer to have Amber Rose because she coveted/desired by many men.
Now why is Amber Rose so coveted by many men??? If Kayne West hadn’t dated her would she rank so high? ?? If her face wasn’t plastered all over blogs and gossip rags would she rank so high???
NO!
this is about 50% of the equation. Add in colonization and the issues that it brings and you have …
I could break this down further but I trust you all get it.
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peanut, the masuline line is something people are repeating because they hear other people say it. Just like ” I just threw up in my mouth a lil”. People repeat and copy the actions of other without giving it much thought.
+
the element cutting up in public, behaving in a way that mainstream culture looks down upon.
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I think it’s consciously acceptable to trash black women in America.
i was addressing those who, due to their own inferiority demons, viciously attack black women & are determined that black women “admit to their inherent worthlessness.”
Yep and yep, hence the particular brand of racialized misogyny that afflicts Black women. Do you notice how some of these men have the same “you better listen to me when I’m talking to you” attitude that some Whites have towards POC? There’s an expectation of deference–women have to pay these men attention or face continual harrassment. When you think about it, the similarities are uncanny.
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“the particular brand of racialized misogyny that afflicts Black women. Do you notice how some of these men have the same “you better listen to me when I’m talking to you” attitude that some Whites have towards POC? There’s an expectation of deference–women have to pay these men attention or face continual harrassment. When you think about it, the similarities are uncanny.”(Jasmine)
————————————————–
I think your’re on to something. I attended a conference (2005) in England once, and there were several blk men and women present; one blk fellow whom I ‘befriended’, immediately began referring to me as ‘the colored woman’, which he said with a condescending humourous tone. I asked him why he referred to me as such, and he stated that ‘colored women’ amused him. huh? I wore a heavy winter coat, and he would always chuckle about that ‘colored woman in the winter coat’. It never sat right with me. Also, I’m no fan of Condeeleza Rice, but at a presentation by one of the blk men in attendance, entire presentation was how Ms. Rice was a wh–re, and he had these extremely degrading pictures of her in his powerpoint presentation, in implied sexualesque poses. I was greatly troubled by these expressions of how did you phrase, it, ‘mysognistic racism’ by these blk men. Very disturbing. I used to think that racism was my biggest concern; sexism too? et tu brute’?
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peanut says,
I don’t think anyone on here is beggin wm for acceptance. what most of us dislike is the disrespect.
LET’S GET ONE THING STRAIGHT I would expect majority of wm to prefer their own race…there is nothing wrong with that. But just because that is their preference does not mean there is something wrong with bw merely because we are not “their preference.” There is no need to go out of your way to degrade our image and YES the media DOES go out of its way to degrade our image and so does society in general.
Calling people nappy-headed hoes for no reasons, attacks against Michelle Obama, pictures of bw as apes on the internet. Then I can’t tell you how annoying it is that in almost every damn romantic comedy where a ww is the lead they ALWAYS got the obese, jive-talking, head-twirling black woman as the antithesis to the “white woman goddess.” He’s Just Not that Into You is a prime example. Then that stupid lifetime movie “what color is love,” is another example. Only in America can you make a movie about a white woman who CHEATS w/ a married bm, gets pregnant and then cops an attitude at his black wife and SHE STILL is made to be the hero at the end…let’s see a lieftime movie about a bw who cheats w/a married wm and gets pregant and becomes the hero…I’m still waiting for that one… I mean its just ridiculous…
laromana says,
peanut, thanks for this EXCELLENT observation.
You (and MANY OTHERS on this post) have clearly, convincingly articulated the SERIOUS/REAL problem of INSTITUTIONAL ANTI-BW RACISM/SEXISM and only someone who wants to INTENTIONALLY DENY the MISTREATMENT that BW face/have faced in America would attempt to JUSTIFY/RATIONALIZE it.
Maybe as we discuss ANTI-BW RACISM/SEXISM HONESTLY, we can find a way to begin to DESTROY it so that we can create a more POSITIVE America for BG/BW in the future.
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laromana you coined the term “anti-bw racism,” lol. i use it all the time now.
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Thanks, peanut. I hope the term helps people better understand what BW are facing.
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I gotta give props to Kwamla for bringing up Frantz Fanon (one of my heroes!) because his theories are highly relevant to this discussion.
Besides cognitive dissonance, we should also remember his theories on language and hegemony, because I think how people often describe Black women, Asian women, and Hispanic women, is very telling when compared to how society describes White women. There’s always a use of coded-language: “big butt”, “fiery”, “agelessness”, “nappy hair”. Those are just the ones that come to mind, but I’m sure the commenters here could think of more.
Yet when describing White women, society (but notably not individuals, especially among people of color!) tends to generalize it, keeps it non-specific and basic: “long hair”, “big breasts”, “wide eyes”, and so on.
It’s interesting to me because I (personally) rarely hear these traits ascribed to beautiful Black women, Hispanic women, or Asian women. The language society — at least American society — uses to describe White women seems inherently different than that used to describe women of color.
But maybe I’m over-analyzing?
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@laromana:
“Then I can’t tell you how annoying it is that in almost every damn romantic comedy where a ww is the lead they ALWAYS got the obese, jive-talking, head-twirling black woman as the antithesis to the “white woman goddess.”
But wouldn’t it be fun to see a movie where this jive talkin obese black woman would get the Mr Right, all the money, the house and be the Good One? Thats a movie I would like to see 😀
Seriously: the media enforces this stereotyping and upholds the value system whioch presents white women as a standard. Not better looking per se, but as a standard to which all the others are and should be compared to.
Personally I think this is load BS, but I think that this is the key problem. Even if a media, say magazine, does not consoder itself racist, they uphold this idea without even realizing. It is kind of weird though. It is like when eating ice cream we would think every time “But how this compares to pure vanilla?”.
It think it will change due to the demographics some time and it will fade away, but it takes another 20-30 years or so.
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Peanut wrote
“Then I can’t tell you how annoying it is that in almost every damn romantic comedy where a ww is the lead they ALWAYS got the obese, jive-talking, head-twirling black woman as the antithesis to the “white woman goddess.” He’s Just Not that Into You is a prime example. Then that stupid lifetime movie “what color is love,” is another example. Only in America can you make a movie about a white woman who CHEATS w/ a married bm, gets pregnant and then cops an attitude at his black wife and SHE STILL is made to be the hero at the end…let’s see a lieftime movie about a bw who cheats w/a married wm and gets pregant and becomes the hero…I’m still waiting for that one… I mean its just ridiculous…”
Ok I see exactly what you are saying here. However AFAIK the only solution is to ignore media that is not made for you and only consume media that IS made for you. This can be quite problematic I know but what other choice is there? Humans are tribalistic creatures and will generally create depictions that exalt themselves and ignore/put down others.
The writer Steve Barnes has written extensively on this sort of concern in media and literature.
http://darkush.blogspot.com/2010/04/steven-kings-stand.html
http://darkush.blogspot.com/2010/03/congrats-hurt-locker-and-question.html
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Hi Jason,
You said:
“@ O
Well most of the leading men in Hollywood seem to be quite short in real life i’ve noticed. So you could argue that they are quite well represented.”
O: first, please define “quite short” – are we talking the American male average of 5’10”, or well below it?
Second, please give me say, ten such “leading Men”?
Third, I could say the same thing wrt the subject matter at hand – Essence, Ebony and Jet, three major publications that feature Black Women regularly if not specifically, have all been around longer than many of the participants of this discussion has been alive, present company included. I can also point to many other media examples where Black Women are featured.
So, by your argument, Black Women have no room to complain, just like shorter Men don’t – right?
Holla back
O.
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Hi Zek,
Yes, you are over-analyzing, and please notice how I brought up a legitimate point of comparison to how others in our society are routinely discriminated against and note the reaction by the very same Black Women who cry victim.
Fascinating.
My point was that, as Shady Grady noted above, those other groups I mentioned somehow get on with living their lives, many manage to overcome their challenges, and all without all the gnashing of teeth and discussions, and blogs, and this, and that – WHY can’t Black Women simply do the same thing? Why?
You response?
O.
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Little Missy,
Thanks for taking the time out, and my bad for getting back to your comments so late. Replies below:
theobsidianfiles, I honestly do not understand why you continue to compare the plight of black women in this country to that of short or red-haired men.
O: Because I wish to illustrate just how much, if not more so they have in common. It is simply an unassailable fact that shorter Men are discriminated against in just about every major way that counts. This is widely documented and quite frankly, makes that which many here are complaining about wrt Black Women pale in comparison. Yet, those shorter Men find a way to move on with their lives WITHOUT COMPLAINING. My question, which continually gets dodged is:
WHY can’t Black Women simply do the same thing? What prevents them from doing this? What is it that shorter Men, as a group, have that Black Women, do not?
LM: There simply is no comparison.
O: See above.
LM: Our history is not similar and then is no connection between us.
O: TYhe history of Gays/Lesbians and the history of African Americans aren’t the same, yet both have faced their fair share of discrimination, have they not?
LM: Black women have always been ridiculed for simply being, society has taught us that not only do we not look “right”, we also don’t act “right”, we don’t live “right”, our feelings aren’t “rigt”.
O: And shorter Men have been discriminated against, often by the very same Black Women you lionize, no wonder you’re so quick to dismiss a quite valid claim…
LM: Short men or red haired men may be discriminated against, but their value as a human person is not questioned, their worth is not questioned, there are no blogs or websites or books that have been published to demean and degrade them simply for being.
O: Uh, yes there are books and peer-reviewed studies documenting just how shorter Men are demeaned in our society from worklife to lovelife, its just no one here wants to be honest in admitting that because then they couldn’t claim special victim status. It’s time Black Women got on with the serious business of facing a particular set of challenges and problems they and they alone face, and stop wasting time majoring in the minors.
LM: I am sure black women would love to move on, to not be reminded of our melanin everyday, to not have our femininity questioned, our worth or value questioned, but until the rest of society moves on from that, we surely can not.
O: Yawn. There is NOTHING holding Black Women back from finding love, from going to school, from building their own businesses, etc, et al. Black Women as a whole enjoy a level of comfort and wealth never seen before in the history of the species. They can do better than this.
O.
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Hi Kwamla,
Sorry for getting back to you so late. Replies below:
K: Ah…I see a space maybe I can comment now…
O: Glad to see ya; pull up a chair!
O: I said that Chuck offered some degree of scholarship and scientific evidence to back up his assertions, which were challenged by Abagond himself, among others, and to which I conceded the point.
K: Well. I am pleased to see this further clarified and debunked by Natasha’s excellent authoritative critique so we can put Chuck’s, apparent, degree of scholarship and scientific evidence to one side.
O: Until Chuck responds with a stronger counterargument, I agree.
K: Why “O” you would cite this in the first place mystifies me. Unless of course you were seeking to “bait” women into an argument.? Just as well you’ve conceded this as a point then.
O: Because I was concerned that no one was dealing with Chuck’s point, straight on, and, that I would make the case that despite the apparent fact that Black Women as a whole aren’t as valued as White Women, SO WHAT? How does that prevent them from living full lives? That’s a question that continues to go unaswered…
K: But thats not the main thrust of your argument anyway this is:
“Personally, and I try very hard not to interject my personal views here or anywhere else, I really don’t think it’s relevant as to WHY Black Women are perceived as less attractive to the Whiter society at large as White Women or Asian Women; to me, the bottomline is, that they are. So, the question for me is, where do Black Women go from here? do they spend all their time attempting to change the minds of resistant White folk, White Men in particular? Or do they simply get on with the business of living their lives? This is the question faced by short Men, and by all accounts, they’ve done well, without all the flailing about and fanfare, which begs the question:
WHY can’t Black Women simply do the same?”
Your response?
O.
K: Lets examine some of this statement.
O: Please…
“…I really don’t think it’s relevant as to WHY Black Women are perceived as less attractive to the Whiter society at large… as White Women or Asian Women; to me, the bottomline is, that they are. So, the question for me is, where do Black Women go from here?”
K: Really…???? Its not relevant?. Well you are entitled to your view but I would have to disagree. In the same way the title of this thread: “Are white women beautiful or is it society that makes it seem so” is also relevant to your question.
O: How so? Please explain? How does it prevent Black Women from getting an education, circa 2010? All the Black Women commenting thus far have achieved this lofty goal. How does it prevent any Black Woman from securing employment? By all accounts, Black Women have done well for themselves on that front as well. Please point out to me the real impediments to Black Women the topic question presents to Black Women enmasse? I’ll wait…
K: You can ignore both statements, as you say, and go on from there. But exactly where does this lead you as a Black person? And I say person because it doesn’t just affect Black women it affects men too. Though obviously, it affects both in different ways. In TRUTH it effects everyone regardless of colour. This too is a given
O: How so, precisely? You haven’t explained this or made it clear. I say it doesn’t affect ME, at least not in the way you allude to. There is nothing that’s gonna stop what I consider beautiful or sexy, nor do I ask anyone else to validate it. I choose to like Black Women because that’s who I’m most attracted to, and I couldn’t give a rat’s hindequarters what anyone else thinks of that. I say Black Women have much bigger fish to fry along these lines to be worrying about whether “society”, ie White folks, thinks if they’re pretty or not.
K: Such is the nature of racism and its effects. Just ignoring it doesn’t make it go away. Particular in the minds or PERCEPTIONS of people as PEANUT has already pointed out. Taking on board both of those statements in the minds of Black people – unchallenged. Can lead to all sorts of peculiar internalized perceptions of what is and what is not perceived as beautiful.
O: Just ignoring it has worked very well for me, and I would dare say, millions of other Black Men, because the US Census stats on this matter are quite clear – Black Men invariably choose Black Women as mates way moreso than they choose anyone else. I and they, couldn’t care less what “society” thinks along these lines. If Black Men can ignore it, why can’t Black Women? Hmm?
K: But then this is nothing new. Franz Fannon wrote about it in “Black Skins White masks”
“Sometimes people hold a core belief that is very strong. When they are presented with evidence that works against that belief, the new evidence cannot be accepted. It would create a feeling that is extremely uncomfortable, called cognitive dissonance. And because it is so important to protect the core belief, they will rationalize, ignore and even deny anything that doesn’t fit in with the core belief.”
— Frantz Fanon (Black Skin, White Masks)
K: Its that core belief that determines your perception. So if you believe, with out fundamentally challenging and substituting alternatives, in either of those two statements above. It will lead you to sub-consciously endorse or even promote them.
O: The most fundamental “challenge” to any of these beliefs, is saying to the world, I choose a Sista as my mate. Doesn’t get any more “fundamental” than that, and again, Brothas do this all the time without much ado. Again: WHY can’t Sistas simply shut up and get on with the business of living life?
K: This is why “O” I would say they are relevant. Though I remain open to hear your view about why you believe they should not be so.
O: Please review the above? I think I’ve made my position on these matters quite clear. Thanks.
O.
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theobsidianfiles , I simply am not going to waste my time debating with you. Any adult “man” that seriously believes that black women and short, red-haired have an equal struggle is not worth my energy. Just as I wouldn’t spend my time arguing with a white supremacist about why blacks haven’t just gotten over it.
Ladies of the board, I think maybe you all should also discontinue your “conversations” with theobsidianfiles. His objective is not to listen and understand your experience, but to let you know that its not really that bad and you should just get over it anyway.
I don’t think that theobsidianfiles can’t see the harassment that black women are put, I just think he doesn’t care. The lack of empathy is quite telling actually, no matter how much WE tell him what we go through,he tells us that WE are wrong, WE need to get over it (like the redheads do lol), WE need to just shut up and sit our ugly, mannish black selves down somewhere cause we’re blocking his view to gorgeous white womanhood lol.
Like a stated earlier, it takes a very interesting type of “man” to behave the way theobsidianfiles behaves.
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@ Obsidian
“Third, I could say the same thing wrt the subject matter at hand – Essence, Ebony and Jet, three major publications that feature Black Women regularly if not specifically, have all been around longer than many of the participants of this discussion has been alive, present company included. I can also point to many other media examples where Black Women are featured.”
Essence, Ebony and Jet? are you serious? That amounts to sufficient positive media representation? your joking right?
“So, by your argument, Black Women have no room to complain, just like shorter Men don’t – right?”
No, that’s YOUR argument and it’s irrelevant at best. You want to play oppression Olympics with short men and black women. That is pointless. As little_missy said there is simply no comparison. It’s apples and oranges, give it up.
My comment about short actors was kind of a joke anyway, It’s not like you can tell that Stallone is only 5’7 unless you see him in person without lifts.
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I agree with Shady_Grady’s comment. The media is run by white many of which
1. Don’t care about how Blacks are portrayed or
2. Are racist and intentionally portray these images
One thing people have to understand is blacks for the most part are not in control of our media image. With the exception of, say, Tyler Perry how
many mainstreamed black producers can you name who makes sucessful( by mainstream standards) movies catering with a predominately nlack cast?
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That last part should be “with a predominantly black cast”?
Until more black producer get shine we will continue to see this pattern. The only alternative is to reduce consumption of mainstream media and support people who portray positive images.
As far as Holly-weird switching up to accommodate blacks and other POC, I just don’t see it happening anytime soon. When people do complain to Hollywood what happens is someone with produce one token film to shut POC up for a while. After that they will revert back to the regular pattern
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K: Really…???? Its not relevant?. Well you are entitled to your view but I would have to disagree. In the same way the title of this thread: “Are white women beautiful or is it society that makes it seem so” is also relevant to your question.
O: How so? Please explain? How does it prevent Black Women from getting an education, circa 2010? All the Black Women commenting thus far have achieved this lofty goal. How does it prevent any Black Woman from securing employment? By all accounts, Black Women have done well for themselves on that front as well. Please point out to me the real impediments to Black Women the topic question presents to Black Women enmasse? I’ll wait…
O. What you are arguing is essentially that, once basic rights are granted, no further steps should be taken towards achieving the same parity of perception and value in society with other women. That, of course is utterly ridiculous.
Just because, (if you work hard enough, circa 2010) you can get an education and a job, doesn’t mean that it wouldn’t be easier to compete for one if you were equally valued with other women.
Consider the Natalee Holloway empathy gap. To this day, the allocation of state resources for women who look like Natalee Holloway are much greater than those that are mustered for a Mitrice Richardson.
Natalee Holloway
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natalee_Holloway
Mitrice Richardson
http://www.swrnn.com/southwest-riverside/2010-07-29/news/missing-mitrice-richardson-believed-to-be-in-las-vegas
Unfair as it may be, perception DOES matter, and it is a worthy battle that,not only Black women should be fighting, but also Black men in their behalf.
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Y, can you delete the last comment made on your blog? It’s by me. Thanks.
“With the exception of, say, Tyler Perry how
many mainstreamed black producers can you name who makes sucessful( by mainstream standards) movies catering with a predominately nlack cast?”
With people like him and Lee Daniels, it’s better to just not have blacks in the media at all.
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Y,
My and Shady Grady’s sentiments exactly. It seems ridiculous to attempt to change the minds of those who seem pretty set in their views about the way the world works. Besides, as I’ve said above, few Black Women go without mates if they want them – the US Census is pretty clear on that point. Black Men couldn’t care less what “society” thinks is hot or not, most of them choose Black Women as mates. Simple as that – and Sistas like Little Missy and others would do well to recognize this fact, and move on to actual matters of import to Black Women.
Thanks for once again showing far and away more wisdom than your young years would otherwise suggest. 🙂
O.
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King,
Your citation of Holloway doesn’t address my points at all. You haven’t proven that perceptions of Black Women, even if negative, has prevented them from attending college, securing gainful employment, etc et al. Far from it, in fact.
Yes, White Women are deemed more valuable in our society. And…? Again, how does this prevent Black Women from achieving in this country, circa 2010?
I await the evidence on this front…
O.
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Natasha,
Perry is immensely successful as a playwright, screenwriter and the like, supported virtually entirely by Black America and more to the point, BLACK WOMEN. It seems to me that what he does resonates very strongly with Black Women overall.
O.
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@Natsha W
Sure thing. And yes, the Tyler Perrys and Lee Daniels aren’t help any.
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Jason,
I kind of got the impression that you weren’t serious when you tried to suggest that Hollywood was just chockfull of leading Men who happened to be short, and you proved that. I was going to ask you to produce a list of Oscar winning Male actors who were well under the American average height of 5’10”, but since we know you weren’t serious there’s no need to pursue this line of reasoning further. Btw, neither Stallone, nor Tom Cruise, has won Oscars. Both Denzel Washington and Forrest Whittaker, on the other hand, have. They both have something in common over the other two. They both are above average height.
As for what I said about Ebony, Jet and Essence, I am serious as a heart attack. Essence was founded in part by legendary photography and film director Gordon Parks and remains the premiere publication promoting the beauty and lives of Black Women, for four decades straight now. There are many other examples of Black Women in the media that we can point to as exemplars of Black beauty. Again, there are much bigger fish for Black Women, as a whole, to fry, rather than bemoaning the fact that White society thinks that White Women are more comely than they are.
O.
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Obsidian said:
“Again, there are much bigger fish for Black Women, as a whole, to fry, rather than bemoaning the fact that White society thinks that White Women are more comely than they are. “
Relative to this thread that is a derailment. For most subjects there is almost always something more important.
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“I kind of got the impression that you weren’t serious when you tried to suggest that Hollywood was just chockfull of leading Men who happened to be short, and you proved that.”
no no. it is. believe it. It’s just that they aren’t presented as short so it doesn’t matter. also it’s irrelevant to the discussion.
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hi Jason,
Then it should be no problem for you to present the evidence – just like I can present evidence that Black Women do quite well for themselves in the desirability department, yes?
Abagond,
This isn’t a derailment at all. We all agree that White Women are deemed more valuable and desirable in our society, for whatever reason. And…? I mean, where do we go from there? I’ve proven that Black Women don’t want for mates if they want them, the US Census is quite clear on this point. I also noted major media outlets like Essence, Ebony and Jet. What more needs to be said?
O.
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It would be no problem but it would be a derail and a waste of my time since I have no interest in looking up sources to support something I already know. You are the interested party, you brought it up. do your own homework.
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No Jason, that’s not how it works. YOU made a claim that I then asked you to prove, and you balked. I on the other hand, can back up my claims. That you can’t handle it because it doesn’t fit your script, isn’t a problem I can or should solve.
O.
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Either O is deliberating missing the point here, or…well, there is no “or”.
Anywho, last I checked, this post wasn’t about short men. Where’s Abagond with the deleting? *blink*
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@theobsidianfiles
You know what else is wildly successful? Jersey Shore. Argumentum ad populum.
Just because something is popular doesn’t mean it holds any merit.
As a Black woman, I don’t find Tyler Perry appealing. I don’t like hackneyed Bible thumping and someone insinuating that all of my problems would be solved if I just found myself a blue collar jerk off, Jesus, and a curly weave.
I like to think I have more dimensions to myself than that, BUT, considering how Perry is one of the few mainstream media playwrights featuring black ensembles, I’m wondering if he’s so popular because he deserves it or because everyone wants some form of solidarity.
Even if it’s solidarity based on a crappy antiquated message of Black womanhood.
Obviously the issue of the way Black women are viewed weighs heavily on some of our minds. Your derailing tactic, while imaginative (like creating a shamwow tampon) doesn’t negate the reality of how some of us feel in regards to this issue.
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@ O
OK you win, your awesome congratulations!
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Ankhesen:
The short man thing is a comparison. It is on-topic, even if it is a “It happens to white people too” argument, the very kind that Uncle Milton loves. But whereas Uncle Milton might not know better, Obsidian does or should. So he comes off as being deliberately obtuse.
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“King,
Your citation of Holloway doesn’t address my points at all. You haven’t proven that perceptions of Black Women, even if negative, has prevented them from attending college, securing gainful employment, etc et al. Far from it, in fact.”
Actually it does, you just don’t understand the connection.
But I’ll explain it to you. The same kind of social value estimate that makes it easier for the press, and the police to spend more money, media, and manpower, searching for a White blond woman is present in the interview process when a Black woman may not be seen to be as valuable an asset as hiring a White woman. The fact that the Black woman may eventually land a job of some kind, does not mean that it’s not worth the trouble to work for equal footing.
Yes, White Women are deemed more valuable in our society. And…? Again, how does this prevent Black Women from achieving in this country, circa 2010?”
Whites in general, are deemed more valuable in our society than are Black people. How does prevent Black people from achieving in this country, circa 2010?
Or is this to be a Larry Elder argument?
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Abagond,
Replies below:
A: The short man thing is a comparison. It is on-topic, even if it is a “It happens to white people too” argument, the very kind that Uncle Milton loves. But whereas Uncle Milton might not know better, Obsidian does or should. So he comes off as being deliberately obtuse.
O; No, I’m not – discrimination is discrimination, and everything you said above about how Black Women are viewed in relation to White Women, I can say about how shorter Men are viewed in society, proofed by numerous actual studies that show, for example, that shorter Men get passed over for promotions in favor of taller Men, simply because of being shorter. And we all know how much Women openly discriminate in this regard.
The problem is that my citing this upsets the apple cart of special victim status that some Black Women here seem to want to nurse, hence the reason why they either try to ignore it outright, or bemoan and belittle as not being important.
O.
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Hi Torch,
Replies below:
T: You know what else is wildly successful? Jersey Shore. Argumentum ad populum.
Just because something is popular doesn’t mean it holds any merit.
O: Yes it does; Perry is wildly popular among Black Women, which says that quite a few disagree with you and others.
T: As a Black woman, I don’t find Tyler Perry appealing. I don’t like hackneyed Bible thumping and someone insinuating that all of my problems would be solved if I just found myself a blue collar jerk off, Jesus, and a curly weave.
O: That’s not what Perry’s films and plays focuses on and you know it – and keep in mind please, I am not for or against Perry. Actually, I’m neutral on the matter, unlike you, given your comments above. Appealing to authority, anyone?
T: I like to think I have more dimensions to myself than that, BUT, considering how Perry is one of the few mainstream media playwrights featuring black ensembles, I’m wondering if he’s so popular because he deserves it or because everyone wants some form of solidarity.
O: Ask Black Women, who make up the bulk of his fanbase…
T: Even if it’s solidarity based on a crappy antiquated message of Black womanhood.
O: Perry doesn’t feature Hattie McDaniel-type Women in his films…
T: Obviously the issue of the way Black women are viewed weighs heavily on some of our minds.
O: And my question is, in light of what I have presented, WHY?
T: Your derailing tactic, while imaginative (like creating a shamwow tampon) doesn’t negate the reality of how some of us feel in regards to this issue.
O: Translation – I don’t have anything with which to meaningfully respond to Obsidian’s points, so I’m gonna either attack them or attack him personally…
Try again..
O.
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Hi King,
Replies below:
“King,
Your citation of Holloway doesn’t address my points at all. You haven’t proven that perceptions of Black Women, even if negative, has prevented them from attending college, securing gainful employment, etc et al. Far from it, in fact.”
K: Actually it does, you just don’t understand the connection.
But I’ll explain it to you.
O: OK…
K: The same kind of social value estimate that makes it easier for the press, and the police to spend more money, media, and manpower, searching for a White blond woman is present in the interview process when a Black woman may not be seen to be as valuable an asset as hiring a White woman. The fact that the Black woman may eventually land a job of some kind, does not mean that it’s not worth the trouble to work for equal footing.
O: Most Black Women have college degrees, often advanced degrees, and in fact often outearn White Women.
“Yes, White Women are deemed more valuable in our society. And…? Again, how does this prevent Black Women from achieving in this country, circa 2010?”
“Whites in general, are deemed more valuable in our society than are Black people. How does prevent Black people from achieving in this country, circa 2010?”
K: Or is this to be a Larry Elder argument?
O: Two questions: what does Elder have to do with the discussion, and secondly, what is wrong with Larry Elder? Personally, I haven’t found a heck of a lot he’s said that is so very objectionable.
O.
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Jason,
“@ O
OK you win, your awesome congratulations!”
O: You’re welcome. I accept!
O.
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Folks, here’s an example and I hope it is not “derailing”.
It is not the same thing but it is similar. I am a music fanatic. I LOVE music. So over the years I would purchase many of the guitar magazines. But it became increasingly obvious that with a few exceptions (BB King/Jimi Hendrix/Buddy Guy/Albert King) most of the magazines I was reading religiously would virtually never have a black guitarist on the cover. In fact features on black guitarists were rare. People that were MONSTER guitarists in various genres (Eddie Hazel/Franco/Prince/Ernie Isley/Curtis Mayfield/Catfish Collins) etc were ignored. Even if white guitarists mentioned them as seminal influences, at best most black guitarists would only get mentioned when they passed away. Maybe. But any white person that managed to stumble his or her way through a 12 bar passage could get massive attention.
Some magazines were worse than others but all of them (Guitar Player/Guitar Edge/Guitar) pretty much had extremely limited coverage on blacks. After a while this really p****d me off and I wrote emails/letters. Generally I was ignored but one editor replied to point out that they were content with their coverage and if I didn’t like it I was free to read something else.
And that opened my eyes. Those magazines were marketed to a particular audience, which didn’t include me. So I needed to find other print media which did have the sort of coverage I needed. And I did that.
So everyone’s tolerance point is different of course but I just don’t see how it makes a lot of sense to consume media not meant for you and then complain about the taste.
There is media out there which does uphold the beauty of black women. Use that. Stop using other media. Or don’t. But then get used to complaining about things you can’t change…
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So where’s the blog on heightism?
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“O: Most Black Women have college degrees, often advanced degrees, and in fact often outearn White Women.”
Wow, Really? This is indeed good news that I was unaware of! My apologies.
What percentage of Black women have college degrees? Like 65%, 70%, maybe 90%?
Source please.
How much more money does the Black female demographic make than the White female demographic?
Please site the source, as well.
O: Two questions: what does Elder have to do with the discussion, and secondly, what is wrong with Larry Elder? Personally, I haven’t found a heck of a lot he’s said that is so very objectionable.
Why did you infer from my question that I was implying that there was anything wrong with larry Elder?
As to how he ties in, Larry often made the argument (on his radio program) that prejudice didn’t really matter because it could be easily overcome. I considered his argument (in that regard) to be a little naive, but he’s entitled to hold it.
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O. In regard to your claim, you may wish to take issue with this article from the American Prospect
“Most Black Women have college degrees, often advanced degrees, and in fact often outearn White Women.”
“Despite a history of strong labor-force attachment and despite gains in educational attainment and occupational status, black women earn less than black men, white women, and white men. In 2005, for the same hours worked, we earned 85 cents for every dollar earned by a white woman, 87 cents for every dollar earned by a black man, and 63 cents for every dollar earned by a white man. In 2006, over 13 percent of black women workers were poor, compared with 5 percent of white women, 7.7 percent of black men, and 4.4 percent of white men. Our unemployment rate is nearly double that of white women and white men.
These statistics are especially depressing because slightly more than three decades ago, black women earned 96 cents for every dollar earned by a white woman. Between 1975 and 2000, the median earnings of white women grew by 32 percent while the median earnings of black women grew by only 22 percent. This recent experience contrasts sharply with the gains realized in the 1960s and 1970s when the income growth among black women outpaced that of other groups thanks to the improvements in black women’s educational attainment and the elimination of the most blatant discriminatory barriers to employment and occupational mobility.”
I’ll wait…
Source here:
http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=black_women_the_unfinished_agenda
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King,
I discussed Elder in the way I did because he isn’t regarded too highly among many African Americans. That’s a bit different from whether the veracity of his arguments hold up well to scrutiny.
There’s a book call Two Nations, by Andrew Hacker. It provides all the proof you need to answer the questions you have wrt my statements about Black Women and their educational and employment attainment.
O.
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@O.
So you answer the logical fallacy of argumentum ad populum with “Nuh-UH! Argumentum Ad Populum!”
Yes, mate. I can say that you’ve definitely bested me.
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Torch,
YES. Because what I said was on point.
a logical fallacy can still be valid, depending on the context. In this one, what I sai was valid – Black Women do indeed think what Mr. Perry has to say in his plays and films is relevant, so much so, that they have made him one of the most successful people in Hollywood, regardless of color or gender. That you find his works objectionable are of interest only to you.
And if Black Women felt the same way about The Jersey Shore, I would say the same thing.
Next question?
O.
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As usual, the media brainwash plays a big role. If you want to sell an image as beautiful which is far from perfect you have to pump it up. Glamourise it. Overrate it. Throw tons of money into it until polished enough that lots of sheep buy it as the only true beauty.
Take the white female newcomer in showbiz, telly, film etc. The media keep banging on about how drop-dead gorgeous she is, coming from a family with a long blood line of pedigree, perhaps having adorable kids, a handsome husband. Even their dogs are the epitome of pet beauty. Her picture gets plastered everywhere etc etc… and then I take a closer look and think – hmm, unbelievable who they grant journalist’s licenses these days…
The media know well enough that their overrating is nothing but a bubble anyway, so they happily accept bribes from the industry and pump it up with plenty of hot air. Makes it rise faster too. And the masses look up.
You rarely ever see that happening with black female newcomers in the media who are usually introduced in a rather austere manner, if at all. The comments about their beauty usually come first from the background noise of male admirers, way before the media picks up on it. And they do pick it up sooner or later. In some countries sooner than in others, and in some countries never 😉
It seems that, as Abagond mentioned, since Twiggy the concept of natural beauty in the public eye degenerated. Perhaps it was initially a reflection of the vibes of the times. The post-war years were almost forgotten and “eat up your plate cos’ you never know what will come!” was not an issue anymore. Starving yourself down became almost like an antithesis to the previous era of stocking up. It later developed a life of its own. My father used to say that Twiggy was the poster girl for declaring that the war was definitely over.
I really like Kwamla’s quote of Frantz Fanon about the cognitive dissonance. I think it’s one of the most stubborn and constantly mutating social viruses. I see it along the lines of “what should not be must not be”. I would even extend “core belief” to perception when transferring the idea to the 21st century. For the last 10 years I feel a permanent bombardment of seemingly plausible half truths, junk science and outright lies that are spread to justify certain twisted ideologies.
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@theobsidianfiles
I’m a black woman, so obviously making such a generalized statement flies in the face of your logic. I could probably introduce you to a plethora of other black women that feel the same way.
You’ve attempted to make us into a monolithic group to suit your purposes, which is fine. For that, I’ll give you a Nutrigrain bar and a Perrier for your originality.
As far as questions? None for you. Your stances are rather typical. If I wanted to hear them I’d turn on Steve Harvey or the other men assuming they know US better than we know ourselves even when we’re speaking on the subject of SELF as black women in America.
Do I speak for all black women (as you are trying to do and you’re not even a black woman) no. Do I speak for myself as a black woman? Absolutely. And just because it doesn’t fit your ideology of who you think we should be or are, doesn’t make it any less valid.
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“There’s a book call Two Nations, by Andrew Hacker. It provides all the proof you need to answer the questions you have wrt my state.”
Excellent!
What are some of the pertinent arguments and verifiable facts that he used to make them? Surely you can present the gist of his assertions here. We certainly can’t make our arguments by pointing to books, can we?
BTW, What are his credentials?
Where can I access his work online?
You do realize, of course, that almost everyone else says the exact opposite as what you’re asserting that he has said? Can you please state, in your opinion, why the majority of research in this area is wrong and why Andrew Hacker’s is right.
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The way I feel, unless we can get more black people in high places(that wont sell out, which is rare because money talks in America) we will continue to see the same patterns. The best we as individuals can do is
1.support those who support us
2. make a way for ourselves.
The more I think of it the more futile it sounds to complain about white run media. In a country like America equipped with the racial baggage and beauty standard its obvious black women *in general* will not be viewed as well as white women *in general*.
In all aspects of American life black is promoted as the antithesis of white. White people are promoted as smart, blacks not so much. White people are promoted as being well behaved, not so for blacks. And on and on… And the same applies to beauty standards and dating preferences.
Its true this is unsettling and unfair to say the very least. However, its not good to fixate on the problem because, for the most part, the circumstances will not change. At the end of the day we dont control mass media. When this country becomes less white and blacks make MAJOR inroads in Hollywood then we will see results.
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@Y- I’ve started feeling as if an abandonment of Hollywood all together is the way to go. There are plenty of accomplished, beautiful, black women making inroads in other arenas. Claudia Alexander has been my role model for as long as I could remember, and you won’t see her in any film.
Back to the classics; literature, the sciences, fine art, the humanities.
Let the rest of the country wallow in its self-imposed ignorance.
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@Shady
I noticed that comment aswell. You can disagree with Obsidian but it’s unfair to say jump to the conclusion that he thinks black women are hideous jut cause he has a disagreement. I read his blog and have dug up his comments at Roissy’s challenging the commencers for their unnecessary racism towards BW. You guys may disagree with him but those of us how have been following him for a while know he’s not a basher. He may be rough in the delivery of his “truth” but he doesn’t hate black women.
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@ torchandlyre
Exactly. If I dont like what I see I will turn off the tv, read a good book, or find something more interesting online. I already know how my group is veiwed in America. There is no use in me watching the negativity and getting offended/defensive. I’ll just do something that will enrich my personal life.
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@obsdinian:
Believe me, in Hollywood you have loads of guys who are not that tall, but since you seemed to be so sure that there are no stars under 5,10, heres few who are:
1. Sylvester Stallone.
2. Tom Cruise.
3. Michael J. Fox
4. Emilio Estevez
5. Al Pacino
6. Rick Moranis
7. Danny DeVito
8. Linda Hunt
9. Seth Green
10. Ashley Olsen
11. Penelope Cruz
12. Ben Stiller
13. Sandra Bullock
14. Don Cheadle
15. Angelina Jolie
16. Catherine Zeta-Jones
17. Matt Damon
etc.
Yeah, I know you demanded just ten to prove that there are Hollywood stars under 5,10 but hey, few more is more convincing. And just to say: I have no idea what this has to do with whote women/black women discussion, except that you are making comparison between short men and black women, which is very funny indeed :-D.
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LMFAO @ Jasmin & Zek
I love how your biggest fan responded to a statement that you didn’t even direct at him. LMFAO! He claims not to be a stalker but the shoe certainly seems to fit, especially coupled with the fact that he had to find a new blog for the same type of behavior that he is displaying here. And then you just curtly ignored him. Brava! Brava! Bravicima! That’s poise if I ever saw it.
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All this talk about the short redheaded stepchild lol reminds me of a white commedian in the UK Russell Howard who has this show on BBC that makes fun of the news around the world (a little bit like “The Soup”.) Anyway there was this guy who was talking about how racist was a”hug a ginger day” and was comparing to the plight of black people and Russell just made so much fun of it.
Black person:my people were enslaved for many years and and made to feel inferior becasue of the colour of their skin and were lynched
White Ginger person:I’m so freckly. and can’t go out in the sun for very long. Can’t we just agree that we both have suffered?
LOL God I wish I had a clip of that.
I dissappear and go back to reading the comments no point of me to engage in tomfoolery
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Hi Sam,
Well, first off, it was Jason who brought up the whole notion of there being so many Hollywood “leading men” and the like. When I asked him for a list of such guys, he demurred. I can’t say that of you, though what I can say is that your list, such as it is, leaves a lot to be desired.
Both Matt Damon and Daniel Craig, for example, are two hugely successful stars; both of whom have very successful film franchises under their belts. And both have something else in common – they’re both 5’10’, which is the American national average height for Men. In fact, if you study the history of Hollywood film making, part of what it took to be a “leading man” was HEIGHT. John Wayne, Cary Grant, Robert Mitchum, Rock Hudson, etc et al, none of these guys were the same height as say, Tom Cruise, who’s about 5’7″. Craig, who portrays the current Bond, is the shortest ever at 5’10” – Connery, the original Bond on film, is about 6’3″, which was the Hollywood standard and for the most part, still is.
No one would ever accuse DeVito or Moranis of being leading men in Hollywood, nor can you or anyone else here give me a list of say, five or more Oscar winning actors who were their height.
What’s my point in bringing all this up? I had thought I made it clear, but I’ll happily do so again –
It is documented that “society” puts heavy costs on Men for being born short. Yet, they manage to get on with the business of living their lives. Why can’t Black Women do this, too?
You response?
O.
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King says,
Unfair as it may be, perception DOES matter, and it is a worthy battle that,not only Black women should be fighting, but also Black men in their behalf.
laromana says,
Thanks for this EXCELLENT comment and for standing up for BW.
If you listen to the IRRELEVANT, OFF TOPIC, NONSENSE posted by the DERAILERS you would be convinced that it’s IMPOSSIBLE for ANYONE to find a way to UNDERSTAND that ANTI-BW RACISM/SEXISM in America is a REAL/SERIOUS PROBLEM that has/continues to affect the QUALITY of BW’s lives and that it NEEDS to be CONFRONTED/DESTROYED.
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le_missy says,
Hi everyone, long time lurker here.
theobsidianfiles, I honestly do not understand why you continue to compare the plight of black women in this country to that of short or red-haired men. There simply is no comparison. Our history is not similar and then is no connection between us. Black women have always been ridiculed for simply being, society has taught us that not only do we not look “right”, we also don’t act “right”, we don’t live “right”, our feelings aren’t “rigt”. Short men or red haired men may be discriminated against, but their value as a human person is not questioned, their worth is not questioned, there are no blogs or websites or books that have been published to demean and degrade them simply for being. I am sure black women would love to move on, to not be reminded of our melanin everyday, to not have our femininity questioned, our worth or value questioned, but until the rest of society moves on from that, we surely can not.
laromana says,
le_missy, your comment PERFECTLY sums up the MAIN POINT of this topic and WHY it’s IMPORTANT to discuss ANTI-BW RACISM.
Many DERAILERS have claimed that ANTI-BW RACISM/SEXISM ISN’T A UNIQUE PROBLEM that BW face or that BW just need to “move on”/”feel good about themselves”.
These DERAILERS seem to believe that IGNORING/PRETENDING that ANTI-BW RACISM/SEXISM DOESN’T EXIST will STOP the MISTREATMENT of BW in Amercan culture/media or ERASE its OBVIOUS NEGATIVE effects on the QUALITY of BW’s lives.
Of course this is a LIE BW/PRO-BW SUPPORTERS can’t afford to believe.
ANTI-BW RACISM/SEXISM MUST BE ACTIVELY CONFRONTED/CONDEMNED EVERY TIME it rears it’s UGLY HEAD until it’s DESTOYED.
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@ Laura: Well, thank-you! I mean, I don’t know you, but thank-you! We try ; )
It’d be great if we could get back on topic, but I’m not sure it’s possible at this point. We’ve been taken over by red-headed shorties who have it SO HARD it might as well be the same as racism.
But let me give it a shot!
The best way I see to change what we see in the media/world about beauty standards is to support productions/people that show diversity and create diversity.
Some of the more disturbing things I’ve been reading coming out of Southeast & East Asia where White standards of beauty are becoming (hell, have become) incredibly popular to the point that many Asian women effectively rebel against their own bodies to change into a White women. I’m thinking specifically about Bridal Styling in Taiwan, or eye-color operations in Japan, Korea, as well as complete facial reconstruction in Korea.
This is an example of colonization of people’s bodies by hegemonic standards of beauty. And it doesn’t just happen over there! In America how many Black women kill their hair trying to make it straight? How many women binge and purge to meet some ideal? It’s sad since most of these women are beautiful already.
I’d say in response to Abagond’s title, and the overall question in this post is that White women can be beautiful, but it’s society that makes all White women beautiful. Whereas Women of color can be beautiful, but society doesn’t notice it.
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Hi Zek,
One would think, given your enthusiasm to confront discrimination anywhere and everywhere, that you would get my point, but of course you can’t concede that, LOL. What a constant source of fascination and entertainment you are for me.
I think Tyler Perry addresses your suggestion above, since his productions feature exclusively Black Women in all their permutations. He isn’t the only one, but he is one of the more better known, and enjoys the support of a large swath of the Black Woman community.
O.
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deevinej23,
“I’ve been skimming the responses, so I’m not sure if this has been brought up. With all the emphasis on white women being the standard of beauty, why is there a preponderance of eating disorders and running to the doctors to get plastic surgery, or getting their skin tanned? I’m not looking at statistics or research, but it is well-known and common. It is growing in communities of color as well, but I wonder why it happens more with white women if they are the standard? These are important issues that at times get ignored without looking at the effects of the pressures to live up to a certain standard on self-esteem.”
This is an excellent point: these beauty standards also affect white women. The issues you mentioned are more common amongst white women because they can conceivably meet the ideal with a few alterations; other women can rarely, if ever, meet it. Someone brought up Megan Fox as beautiful… well how many surgeries has she done to achieve her look? She certainly doesn’t look like the average brunette she once was. Everyone is clamoring to be the “hottest”, and the cycle perpetuates itself.
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King,
Hacker is very well known, a quick Google search will give you his CV. Nor should you be lulled into thinking that just because everyone agrees with something, doesn’t necessarily make said thing right.
Holla back
O.
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Natasha,
How many Men take themselves through all manner of changes to make themselves more appealing to Women? Happens all the time, in fact, when you think about it. Simply put, people don’t want to lookat Susan Boyle as a leading lady. That may not be right, but it is life. Why it is we can’t deal with life on its own terms, continues to fascinate me.
O.
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this blog is toxic
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Why it is we can’t deal with life on its own terms, continues to fascinate me.
O.
Obsidian, I was lurking on your site for a couple of months and you talked about a dangerous encounter with the police where you feared you were going to be seriously hurt. You obviously wanted sympathy and understanding. I noticed that you brought up that episode a few times, seeking sympathy/empathy from your readers.
I find it “fascinating” that you didn’t just deal with that aspect of “life on its own terms” and brush it off, as you’re now saying that black women should do when their beauty and therefore their worth is being devalued when compared to white women’s.
In both cases, blacks are being devalued. Why was your pain any worse than a black woman’s? We all know that when left unchecked, devaluation of people can become very extreme.
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abagond,
I’m revising this comment because I couldn’t find where I read that Sophia Loren had a great-great grandparent who was Black/part Black.
ORIGINAL COMMENT:
laromana says,
lil’vina, your comment is so on point.
I especially detest when WW are OVERPRAISED for having features that are COMMON to BW while BW are NEVER PRAISED for having the same features (eg. full lips, full butts, etc.). An excellent example of this is Sophia Loren. Much later in her life, Sophia admitted that one of her grandparents was Black. This really helped to explain Sophia’s unique beauty in comparison to most of the WW of her generation (since she’s part Black).
REVISED COMMENT:
laromana says,
lil’vina, your comment is so on point.
I especially detest when WW are OVERPRAISED for having features that are COMMON to BW while BW are NEVER PRAISED for having the same features (eg. full lips, full butts, etc.).
An excellent example of this is Kim Kardashian who is often PRAISED for her SURGICALLY ENHANCED REAR END.
Many BW can attest to the fact that they have/are called “FAT” and CRITICIZED for having a rear end that is “TOO BIG”.
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Wow. This thread is getting longer than a short man!
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“King,
Hacker is very well known, a quick Google search will give…”
@ obsidianfiles
The point of reading a book about ideas is to be able to 1) internalize and 3) communicate those ideas to others.
If I had to read every book someone pointed me to, in the course of an internet debate, I could do little else than read other people’s favorite books.
Making an argument means making and argument not starting a book club. It simply won’t do to say, “Oh, all of this was explained in Ulysses,” or “Cicero”, or “the Elder Edda”.
If you have read something that you are basing your argument on, then, by all means, regurgitate the argument, and point to the supporting data. If that’s not possible then leave off making the argument. Book suggestions are great, but they should not be used in place of an argument.
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@jorbia
“In both cases, blacks are being devalued. Why was your pain any worse than a black woman’s? We all know that when left unchecked, devaluation of people can become very extreme.”
I would answer that, but you can probably find the answers better on a site like “What About Our Daughters?”
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King,
I’m sorry that I don’t have Hacker’s book Two Nations in front of me, but I have been known to quote large passages from it in the recent past. The point is that my argument is based on it and what Hacker gives inside.
All that said, there’s nothing stopping you from at least looking the Man up for yourself on Google.
O.
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“All that said, there’s nothing stopping you from at least looking the Man up for yourself on Google.”
That I will certainly do. I’m just surprised that, having read them man, and having quoted the man, that you can’t or won’t explain the man.
I wasn’t asking you for a line for line rendering of his work, chapter and verse, but surely you can simply outline his basic points? I don’t mean to be demanding… Am I asking too much?
And can you really not give the reason why you believe that his minority opinion is more correct than the majority opinion?
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Jorbia,
Replies below:
J: Obsidian, I was lurking on your site for a couple of months and you talked about a dangerous encounter with the police where you feared you were going to be seriously hurt. You obviously wanted sympathy and understanding. I noticed that you brought up that episode a few times, seeking sympathy/empathy from your readers.
O: Yes, I recall the incident well; it was earlier this Spring…
J: I find it “fascinating” that you didn’t just deal with that aspect of “life on its own terms” and brush it off, as you’re now saying that black women should do when their beauty and therefore their worth is being devalued when compared to white women’s.
O: Is a Woman’s sole worth in her beauty, or lack thereof? Haven’t we all been told by the Feminists that this isn’t so? Please explain?
As for your comment above, I did indeed get on with the business of living my life; and I should like to note that no Black Woman ever faced the prospect of being shot full of holes simply because she wasnt deemed as comely as Sophia Loren or any other White Woman.
No one is disagreeing with the basic premise of this post; the point is, “now what?”. And that’s not what I’m hearing too much from those who squawk the loudest here; where do we go from here?
J: In both cases, blacks are being devalued. Why was your pain any worse than a black woman’s?
O: Because in my case, my actual life was on the line, that’s why. No one ever died from merely told that they weren’t hot.
J: We all know that when left unchecked, devaluation of people can become very extreme.
O: when people start dropping dead from such “etremeties”, by all means please let me know…
O.
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White women are beautiful, but not anymore so than Black women. It’s American society only which ranks them below than the former, otherwise both groups have extremely beautiful women at the same amount, also the same with men.
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Hi King,
As I recall, you had asked for the data on which Hacker made his arguments. Something I haven’t committed to memory, and again I don’t have the book in front of me and I’m out of town for the moment; my books are back at home.
But the point that Hacker was making was how Black people are impacted in various ways in terms of employement and the role that race plays in it. hacker was observing how Black Women did well in relation to Black Men and in some cases, even White Women and then gave some data to support the view. Something that again, I can’t cite for you chapter and verse right now. Honestly, given the nature of the venue, I had assumed that people here would be famil.iar with Hacker’s work. Once again I have learned, to always question my assumptions.
O.
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@ O. very well. But when you have access to the information again, please post it.
I’ll wait…
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@ obsidian: well, I found a list that stated that matt damon was 5,8. but ok.
Is society kicking short guys more to the head than black women? Wonder what history says about this?
Well, the sargofagus of Alexander the Great is about 150 cm long so the guy was less than that and still we remember him as Alexander the GREAT. Stalin was 160 with his hair combed right, Hitler was 160 in his fancy pants and Napoleon was not too much taller. Ok, granated, Chalemagne was over 180 cm tall based on the measurements on his leg bone and Peter the Great was about 2 meters tall. But no, I do not think that short men are somehow more opressed than the black women.
Like I said before I’m 173 cm and it never bothered me, never stopped me nor it never was an obstacle to get any women. I think it is kind of funny to compare these two. I have no idea where you live or what are your experiences but I’ve been around, around the globe that is, and my height or lack of it has never been an issue anywhere. So from my personal experience I can only say that as a not so tall man I must say that I have never ever faced any of the troubles that black women or men have to face.
Bernie Ecclestone is very tiny guy but he is the dictator of the whole Formula One circus and well known of her fashion model girlfriends. Maybe 2 billion dollars makes up the lack of height, I would think so. But the point is that this tiny ugly guy was able to create that business almost single handedly. And you can take it to the bank, that guy is short.
Excluding Oprah I don’t know any other black woman in that class. But there are several chinese, malesian, european, american (both North and South) short guys who are billionaires, millionaires, bosses of some sort etc. So I just don’t see the comparison you are making between these two.
Maybe it is just me, maybe I am Old Skool, but I think if a guy is a man, it really does not matter how tall or short you are. It is about being a man, not a whining sissy. Not that I mean you by this. I’ve seen short guys knock out huge guys down with one punch in and out of a ring. I’ve seen short guys pick up the best looking women at the discos. I’ve met some short guys who were so respected and revered that tall guys stepped aside when these midgets walked by. So really, I can not see what you say. But like I said, this is just my experience and opinion based on that.
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@obsidian:
Just noticed that you had an incident with some cops. Well, I’ve had some too. Once in the middle of a night in USA with my black friends at night. So that is a familiar thing for me too. Being white at that moment meant nothing, untill they figured out who I was. But then it was like what the F I was doing in a car with black guys. This happened in the 80’s when I was living in the States. I also had one incident with some native american friends and cops and that was even scarier experience.
But still I can not compare those to the experiences that black women have in their lives. For me they were just moments. Black women face challenges every day and still manage to get on. That is respectable in my eyes.
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I do agree that white women for many are the universal standard of beauty. I am so glad that my mother exposed me to black beauty at a young age because that has helped me to see the beauty in my own people.
Personally, I think black women will always be the lowest on the totem pole since society at large refuses to change it’s perceptions about us (black women).
I sympathize with all women of color who have been made to feel less attractive because they don’t have blue-eyes and blond hair.
On another note I am curious as to why black women get labeled as ugly and not so much black men? Black men are seen as desirable by all races of women.
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“Black men are seen as desirable by all races of women.
Huh? Where did you get that?
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Wiggywack,
It’s because Black Men as a group are seen as the most masculine of Men, whereas Black Women are seen as the most masculine of Women. That’s why.
O.
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Even though they are not
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Hi sam,
Replies below:
S: Is society kicking short guys more to the head than black women? Wonder what history says about this?
O: I never claimed any such thing, only that shorter guys have indeed faced their fair share of documented discrimination, much of it at the hands of Women in the dating realm, and have managed to get on with their lives without recourse to woe is me sessions and the like. Am I asking why Black Women can’t do this too, something that to date, more than several hundred posts in, no one has actually answered.
S: Well, the sargofagus of Alexander the Great is about 150 cm long so the guy was less than that and still we remember him as Alexander the GREAT. Stalin was 160 with his hair combed right, Hitler was 160 in his fancy pants and Napoleon was not too much taller. Ok, granated, Chalemagne was over 180 cm tall based on the measurements on his leg bone and Peter the Great was about 2 meters tall. But no, I do not think that short men are somehow more opressed than the black women.
O: Strawman argument.
S: Like I said before I’m 173 cm and it never bothered me, never stopped me nor it never was an obstacle to get any women. I think it is kind of funny to compare these two. I have no idea where you live or what are your experiences but I’ve been around, around the globe that is, and my height or lack of it has never been an issue anywhere. So from my personal experience I can only say that as a not so tall man I must say that I have never ever faced any of the troubles that black women or men have to face.
O: I am in the USA and am speaking on things from that perspective, and here a Man’s height matters. Obama was voted as president of the USA in part because of his height, nor is this unusual at all in terms of American presidential elections.
S: Bernie Ecclestone is very tiny guy but he is the dictator of the whole Formula One circus and well known of her fashion model girlfriends. Maybe 2 billion dollars makes up the lack of height, I would think so. But the point is that this tiny ugly guy was able to create that business almost single handedly. And you can take it to the bank, that guy is short.
O: Oprah Winfrey has more money than him and virtually no guy can be heard pining away for her. *shrugs*
S: Excluding Oprah I don’t know any other black woman in that class. But there are several chinese, malesian, european, american (both North and South) short guys who are billionaires, millionaires, bosses of some sort etc. So I just don’t see the comparison you are making between these two.
O: Just because you can cite a few obscure to American ears names of shortish Men who made it to the top doesnt negate what I’ve said earlier. The discrimination against shorter guys is real and documented and all manner of academic study has been done in this regard, AND Women, and that includes Black Women, can and do discriminate against them in a romantic context all the time. Even as we speak. I suppose it takes one to know one, hmm?
S: Maybe it is just me, maybe I am Old Skool, but I think if a guy is a man, it really does not matter how tall or short you are. It is about being a man, not a whining sissy.
O: so now we resort to shaming language when we cannot legitimately debunk what the studies say, hmm, Sam? That’s it now? So, let me try this out – maybe I’m old school, but I think if a Woman is a Woman, it doesn’t really matter how Black you are. Its about being a Woman, not a whiny b*tch.
Think about that for a moment, and if its cool with you, its cool with me…
S: Not that I mean you by this.
O: Of course not…
S: I’ve seen short guys knock out huge guys down with one punch in and out of a ring.
O: So have I. Moreover, I’ve seen quite a few hot Black Women and more than my fair share of ugly White ones. So?
S: I’ve seen short guys pick up the best looking women at the discos. I’ve met some short guys who were so respected and revered that tall guys stepped aside when these midgets walked by. So really, I can not see what you say. But like I said, this is just my experience and opinion based on that.
O: Exactly. Data must give way to personal anecdote. And the data is on my side here.
S: Just noticed that you had an incident with some cops.
O: Yes; earlier this year, I was nearly shotdown Amadou Diallo style by a bunch of em.
S: Well, I’ve had some too. Once in the middle of a night in USA with my black friends at night. So that is a familiar thing for me too. Being white at that moment meant nothing, untill they figured out who I was. But then it was like what the F I was doing in a car with black guys. This happened in the 80′s when I was living in the States. I also had one incident with some native american friends and cops and that was even scarier experience.
O: did they have their guns drawn on you?
S: But still I can not compare those to the experiences that black women have in their lives. For me they were just moments. Black women face challenges every day and still manage to get on. That is respectable in my eyes.
O: Again: when the day comes that Black Women are in danger of being shot by the Po-Po merely for being Black Women, then they’ll have my stauch support on the matter. Until then, they need to take a page out of Alexander the Great’s book and learn to overcome whatever shortcomings they perceive themselves to have, and let the woe is me fest go to bed.
O.
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Wiggywack
What’s considered desirable in men is almost always the opposit of what’s considered desirable in women(generally speaking)
I would argue that the black races has been masculinized in mass media. Blacks are perceived as a masculine and aggressive race of people. This workings in favor of black men because more masculine men are considered attractive by women. However women who are perceived as masculine, dominant, and aggressive are not considered the most attractive to men.
However I don’t think black men are the most desired race of men. White men are the most preferred from what I can see. White men may not be considered as masculine as black men (in general) but white men are perceived as having higher social status and being better providers.
In know these are stereotypes. But from what I’ve gathered by talking to friends that have strong preferences for black or white men, that about somes it up
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According to the website OkCupid white men are the most desirable. Black men are second last, behind East Asian men but ahead of South Asian men:
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“I would argue that the black races has been masculinized in mass media. Blacks are perceived as a masculine and aggressive race of people. This workings in favor of black men because more masculine men are considered attractive by women. However women who are perceived as masculine, dominant, and aggressive are not considered the most attractive to men.”
Totally agree. The whole race was painted as primal, less inhibited, half savage, and aggressive. I think this was mainly done to insinuate that Blacks were closer to animals than to Whites. It was also done because they believed that this would be the last thing that a White woman would be interested in sexually. Based on their understanding of women (particularly a the time) they thought that all women would be repulsed by the idea of these aggressive Black brutes.
However, as times and attitudes changed toward sexuality, it turned into a bit of a plus in the eyes of some women. It began to play out as more masculine, and more potent, and more exciting.
In other words, it backfired, big time after the sexual revolution.
But unfortunately, the same stereotypes that were imposed on ALL Blacks did not fair as well for Black women, because it translates into masculinity a lot easier than into femininity. In women, it gets read either as masculine, or as an oversexed whore.
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@King
Where I’m from this is how black men are seen (being more desirable than black women). Maybe it’s just a regional thing. Idk.
@theobsidianfiles and Y
Thanks for the clarification on the matter. I wanted to understand it better. It was just something that I have noticed in my own experiences.
And Y, I agree with you that black people as a whole are viewed as overly masculine. Some use this stereotype to “prove” that we are brutes.
But for me this whole black women being masculine thing is new. I have been more acquainted with the “Jezebel” and “Mammy” stereotypes than the “Sapphire” stereotype that seems to be all the rage.
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It’s interesting regarding how white women are considered beautiful. The most beautiful, goodlooking women I’ve encountered happened to be women of color.
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“However I don’t think black men are the most desired race of men. White men are the most preferred from what I can see. White men may not be considered as masculine as black men (in general) but white men are perceived as having higher social status and being better providers.”
So, there are certain women of other races who are looking for “experiences” with Black men… flings, affairs, or one nighters, but the White guys are good for marriage.
Black guys are still stereotyped to be kind of dumb, like overgrown boys, who are incapable of being monogamous, and who will probably never make much money.
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“It’s interesting regarding how white women are considered beautiful. The most beautiful, goodlooking women I’ve encountered happened to be women of color.”
Cosign, Leigh
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According to the website OkCupid white men are the most desirable. Black men are second last, behind East Asian men but ahead of South Asian men:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/10/13/okcupid-and-race-and-dating/
You are willing to us the OKCupid study as “evidence” where it relates to Black men (who finished 2nd to last) but you are not willing to do the same as it pertains to White women (who also finished 2nd to last). Interesting.
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@leigh204
I absolutely agree with you. And I didn’t notice how “average” many white women were until I moved into a predominantly white neighborhood. That definitely shattered my previous idea that most white women looked as good as Cindy Crawford.
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The OkCupid study is certainly an interesting treatise on the dating habits of younger people online, but I’m not sure how much I’d trust their data either. Too small of a sample size. Too much of a agenda for them when it comes to dating. I prefer something peer-reviewed and non-partisan.
That said, depending on where you go and who you ask, the ratings are going to be pretty widely dispersed. But if you went to Nowhere Nebraska, I get the feeling that the dating scene is White-on-White, and all others good luck!
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just a guy wrote:
“this blog is toxic”
Abagond:
have you noticed that your posts which attract BY FAR the most attention are those which offer the opportunity for commenters to criticize the attractiveness, intelligence or political acumen of black women?
does this give you any pause for thought? i say this with great respect for you as a writer and social commentator.
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Women have to understand that men (of all races) are not rascists when they prefer lighter-skinned women. It’s not even mass media! Before the advent of colonialism in places such as the Middle East, India, China, and much of Asia, lighter-skinned women were heavily preferred before the Europeans came along and set the bar higher. For example, the sultan of the Ottoman Empire would marry a Turkish woman out of ceremonial or traditional concerns, but his harem would be full of European women concubines brought over by the slave trade. A few Arab women were also present and almost no African women have ever been discovered by historians to have been in the harem.
Men are just born to prefer lighter-skinned women. Here’s where you can find a psychological study that examined why men prefer light-skinned women:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-535828/Why-men-prefer-fair-skinned-maidens-women-like-dark-handsome-strangers.html
Basically, what researchers found that, “Men are subconsciously attracted to fairer-skinned icons such as Nicole Kidman or Kylie Minogue because of the skin tone’s association with innocence, purity, modesty, virginity, vulnerability and goodness.”
Oh, and for the small percentage of men that preferred darker women, here’s why:
“In effect, men drawn to darker looking women – such as actress Monica Bellucci over rival Michelle Pfieffer – are expressing a preference for danger.
Dr Baumann said this appreciation of a darker complexion in women is “less common” but “appears to coexist with a
view of such women as more overtly sexual.
‘In other words, darker women are seen as more promiscuous.'”
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(Sigh) the “Turkish Harem” argument should be it’s own post, based on how many times I’ve heard it.
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@peanut
I watched that Battle of the Bods vid on hulu. That was one of the most disgusting shows ever-for various reasons but I won’t get into that.
The comment by one of the nerds that the dark skin black girl looked like she should be playing on the football team was absolutely gross. There was nothing masculine about her. Even though she was one of the cuter faces she ranked last in the face rankings. Overall ranking she got last again. The only one where she did good was the butt ranking (she had the stereotypical black girl booty).
The lighter skinned black girl didn’t get it as bad but didn’t do that good either in spite of the fact that she was the most attractive out of all of the women.
The one who did the best was the average looking, petite blond who wore too much makeup and probably had breast implants.
This is an excellent example of how an average looking white girl will usually beat out an equally average or more attractive black girl in beauty contests, dating choices, etc.
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You can find some hard data on biological racial differences here: http://psychology.uwo.ca/faculty/rushtonpdfs/Race_Evolution_Behavior.pdf
Personally, I found pg 22-28 quite interesting.
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Anon,
I do hope you’re not using that study seriously. Right? Because no matter how many times people try to “prove” race exists in the biological sense, and that different races have essential characteristics in their DNA that leads to behavioral/social/cultural differences, it will STILL be racist. And wrong.
The Human Genome Project has already shown that humans are 99.99% genetically the same. Race is a constructed identity, and that can be seen historically as much as genetically. Studies linking brain size to intelligence, or even intelligence to with testing, have also been disproved & debunked as racist, and unscientific.
Rushton himself has been lambasted over & over again by the academic and scientific communities for his racism, and poorly done research. Groups as myriad as the SPLC to the ADL have all shown, and labeled Mr. Rushton what he is: a racist.
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@ Anon
SIGH… how many times do we have to disprove this HBD nonsense, before it sticks? Is someone going to show up every day with a new paper that reads like the concepts of an 8th grader’s view of the world?
My sincere apologies to intelligent 8th graders.
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@ zek
Not to mention the numerous times it’s already been discredited on this very blog
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Maybe it’s good for the HBD stuff to be widely circulated and discussed because clearly it represents racism’s very best effort. It’s really the best racists can do. So I say get it out there right along with everything that debunks it. Sunlight is the best disinfectant so the saying goes. I mean theres no reason to shout it down because it fails on it’s own.
It seems like at this point HBD’s biggest strength is the Taboo factor. The “ssssh this is what those politically correct liberals don’t want you to hear” factor.
Give em more rope I say.
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Jason:
I agree completely.
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Comments about Obsidian’s relationships with black women is an ad hominem and off topic.
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Cosign jas0nburns. Let it all come out.
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What does HBD stand for? (sorry, kinda new here)
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@ Obsidian
No one is disagreeing with the basic premise of this post; the point is, “now what?”. And that’s not what I’m hearing too much from those who squawk the loudest here; where do we go from here?
You seem to constantly try to pick at black women about one thing or another. Why? It’s obvious that you have a beef with black women about something.
O: Because in my case, my actual life was on the line, that’s why. No one ever died from merely told that they weren’t hot.
You said on your site that men determine whether women are attractive. A woman’s value is still largely decided by men based on her attractiveness because men place a higher value on more attractive women. So we’re talking about a woman’s “worth” here. The basic issue here is that a lot of black women are devalued and rejected simply because they don’t look “hot” like “hot” white women. That deprives those black women of various types of opportunities that “hot” white women get in this society. You need to stop trivializing that.
O: when people start dropping dead from such “etremeties”, by all means please let me know…
You’re trivializing this simply because you have a beef with black women about something. Are you the same Obsidian that talks non-stop on your site about the pain for black men to be denied jobs and advancement on their jobs due to being black? I never heard of a black man dropping dead when he got rejected for a job either. Then wouldn’t you agree that black men just need to get over that constant rejection and go on with their lives too? Yet, you sure do sound like you’re in pain when you write about it on your site.
I know by now you’ll say that’s “different.”
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Anon,
I had a friend who’s a science major read your so-called “scientific paper,” and he said the guy who wrote it would’ve failed high school biology.
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HBD = human biodiversity, a form of pseudo-scientific racism
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Abagond,
Thanks for clearing that up.
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wickywack,
yes the whole show is outrageous and sexist as well. I don’t see how people could not see how targeted the bw were in that show.They immediately started attacking the bw and pegged them as having “tacky” eyebrows when in reality their eyebrows weren’t anymore tacky than the ww on the show. the show is a classic example of how ww have beauty privilege just from being white.
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i also noticed how one of the blond ww(emily) casually remarks that the darkskinned bw (trakeila) has “too much” booty. that was interesting…
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that show was just ridiculous…but I wanted people to see there we’re not b.sing when we say that bw get mistreated no matter how beautiful/classy just for being black. i’ve been made to feel inferior due to my blackness more than once or people have tried to make me feel that way. Also trakeila ( the darkskinned bw) seemed to have the nicest personality, but that didnt’ stop her from being degraded for no reason this is the type of thing bw go through on a reg. basis.
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You can find some hard data on biological racial differences here
You can find out just how he gathers his biological data thus:
Articles in the Canadian press based on interviews with Rushton’s first-year psychology students reported that Rushton had surveyed students in 1988 by asking “such questions as how large their penises are, how many sex partners they have had, and how far they can ejaculate.”[31] First-year psychology students at UWO are required “to participate in approved surveys as a condition of their studies. If they choose not to, they must write one research paper. Also, many students feel subtle pressure to participate in order not to offend professors who may later be grading their work. However, if a study is not approved, these requirements do not apply at all.”[31] For not telling them they had the option to not participate without incurring additional work, Rushton was barred by the university where he is tenured from using students as research subjects for two years.[31]
Also in 1988, Rushton conducted a survey at the Eaton Centre mall in Toronto where 50 whites, 50 blacks, and 50 Asians were paid to answer questions about their sexual habits. For not receiving permission of the university committee where he is employed, the administration at the University of Western Ontario reprimanded Rushton, calling his transgression “a serious breach of scholarly procedure,” said University President, George Pederso
Maybe I should go around asking strange men these questions, that way I won’t be wasting time. I could say I am conducting ‘scientific research’! Now that’s a plan!
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@peanut
I agree with everything you’ve said.
Another thing that irked me was when they were doing the face rankings and one of the girls suggested to the dark skinned girl that she go in last place because her features were “exotic”. WTH?! I thought men liked exotic features. No, what the girl really meant was “black girl go to the back because there is no way in hell that these guys will think you are attractive!” The racism given to her nice and subtle.
And I agree with you that the dark skinned girl had the nicest personality. She also seemed to be the smartest while the other girls, including the light skinned black girl all seemed to have the IQ’s of 50.
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wiggywack said,
“Another thing that irked me was when they were doing the face rankings and one of the girls suggested to the dark skinned girl that she go in last place because her features were “exotic”. ”
yeah that was funny, what was even funnier was that Emily (in my opinion) was the least attractive in the bunch…but yet no one disputes or defend trakeila. i guess bw just automatically are the bottom and the sad thing is trakeila was cute but even in the beginning before anyone even said anything, trakeila said she’d take the fourth spot when really she should have atleast been # 3 as far as i’m concerned. bw always relegated to the bottom no matter how pretty or intelligent we are…
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But you know what peanut the young lady Trakeila seemed too classy to be on that show. I don’t what her reasons for going on there were, but those other those girls weren’t on her level, especially intelligence wise. And besides any man who would pick superficial beauty over natural beauty and low intelligence over high intelligence isn’t worth any real women’s time.
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black women are just as beautifull. i think for white women its not all about their beauty. they have always have the resources ,the education,, and the advantage and alot of men is drawn to that too. black women on the other hand are tied to demeaning stereotype coming all the way from slavery.
we are not only taunt by white supremacy, but every other race you could think of. because i’ll say it again we are the only distinct race. especially when it comes to our hair. every other race of female has almost similar hair, mostly long and silky looking. which make them feel they have a closer relation to white. most black women have kinky hair. totally the opposite.
some black people don’t want to accept themselves. it is not all history. also most of the people in the world is of lighter complextion, than black people. so maybe they pick on the odd, which is black people, the darker skin. it give them a feel of supremacy. or it give them a feel that they are closer to white. its not only white people that market these stereotype.there is the other races and black people as well that contributes to these myths. i feel at times we try too hard to fit in and is not accepting of our distinct beauty. when the truth is there is not one standard of beauty. can we accept that there is not one standard of beauty?
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@ calculator
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-535828/Why-men-prefer-fair-skinned-maidens-women-like-dark-handsome-strangers.html
Oh dear. Here it strikes again. As I mentioned before, the media brainwash. First of all the Daily Mail is a populist tabloid, known for its ultra conservative stance in general. Not to mention their fascist tendencies throughout their history. They are also infamous for sloppy journalistic research, distortions, fabricating “facts” or blowing them out of proportion. You have to read their stories by weeding through their casual but fundamentally manipulative rhetoric.
Some people choose to blindly believe what fits their ideology best. As soon as they hear or read something which supports their ideas they shut their senses off. Many are already so brainwashed that they are unable to see the main purpose of articles of this nature. That is, selling their rags by touting already existing populist concepts. Not to mention the promotional boost for Kylie Minogue and Nicole Kidman, but on the other hand perpetrating the “sleazy” image of Monica Bellucci. Did I spell manipulation correctly?
Another example – when certain people read something like “scientists may have found evidence that humans and apes do not share a common ancestor”, they immediately affirm without any further reflection or own research. “See! I always knew it!”
The unfortunate fate all those articles share in terms of credibility is that they are catered to the lowest common denominator. Don’t think for yourself, we will tell you what you already believe, just in a repackaged and polished form. Hey come on, thinking is boring, isn’t it?
I see. “too big to be explained by biology”. “…deeply rooted and enduring cultural values” …exemplify the link between “aesthetic and moral judgements”.
No further questions, your honour.
Who stands out from the crowd in the majority pale old UK… yes, you guessed it, someone dark. The seemingly plausible half-truths come to mind again.
Stories like those should be clearly marked with the “For entertainment purposes only” disclaimer.
Or to quote one of the reader’s comments
“What a load of twaddle!”
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Hi Jorbia,
Replies below:
J: @ Obsidian
“No one is disagreeing with the basic premise of this post; the point is, “now what?”. And that’s not what I’m hearing too much from those who squawk the loudest here; where do we go from here?”
J: You seem to constantly try to pick at black women about one thing or another. Why? It’s obvious that you have a beef with black women about something.
O: Let’s assume for the moment that I did indeed “have a beef with Black Women or something”. So what? What does that have to do with the discussion points at hand? How does that lessen the impact of what I, or Y, or Shady Grady, have said – that Black Women need to MOVE ON with their lives, because there is NOTHING they can do to change the minds of “White society” insofar as how they regard Black Women in terms of aesthetics and so forth. You have addressed this; you’ve only speculated about what my personal motivations are.
O: Because in my case, my actual life was on the line, that’s why. No one ever died from merely told that they weren’t hot.
J: You said on your site that men determine whether women are attractive.
O: Yes, that’s correct.
J: A woman’s value is still largely decided by men based on her attractiveness because men place a higher value on more attractive women.
O: Yes, that’s also correct at least to a large extent.
J: So we’re talking about a woman’s “worth” here. The basic issue here is that a lot of black women are devalued and rejected simply because they don’t look “hot” like “hot” white women. That deprives those black women of various types of opportunities that “hot” white women get in this society. You need to stop trivializing that.
O: “Opportunities” like what, precisely? If you’re arguing educational opportuinites, I think the evidence as we have it is quite clear that Black Women are doing very, very well for themselves on that front. If you’re talking about employment opportunities, again, Black Women are none too shabby there either. If anything, Black MEN take a bigger hit on both fronts – and there’s no huge hew and cry about it from any quarter – yes?
O: when people start dropping dead from such “extremeties”, by all means please let me know…
J: You’re trivializing this simply because you have a beef with black women about something.
O: Rubbish; you’re just upset because I refuse to participate in a pity party that in the end is a massive timesuck.
J: Are you the same Obsidian that talks non-stop on your site about the pain for black men to be denied jobs and advancement on their jobs due to being black?
O: I see you have a penchant for hyperbole. Out of nearly 300 posts I’ve had less than a dozen on the topic which you refer to above.
J: I never heard of a black man dropping dead when he got rejected for a job either. Then wouldn’t you agree that black men just need to get over that constant rejection and go on with their lives too? Yet, you sure do sound like you’re in pain when you write about it on your site.
O: For the most part, Black Men do indeed get on with it; when’s the last time you saw a national conversation taking place along said lines? I’ll wait…
J: I know by now you’ll say that’s “different.”
O: Yea, something like that…
Holla back
O.
PS: I also wrote a post call Brothas Gonna Work It Out – Alone – which says in essence to Brothas, “get over it”. Of course, you wouldn’t have seen that, right? 😉
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O: Let’s assume for the moment that I did indeed “have a beef with Black Women or something”. So what? What does that have to do with the discussion points at hand? How does that lessen the impact of what I, or Y, or Shady Grady, have said – that Black Women need to MOVE ON with their lives, because there is NOTHING they can do to change the minds of “White society” insofar as how they regard Black Women in terms of aesthetics and so forth.
But black women in America HAVE moved on and DO are achieve at record levels despite being devalued. It’s well known that ALLwomen talk or vent to ease their stress or pain, so I would expect for black women to talk in order to vent. Women are not socialized to be stoic. Maybe black women are behaving just like all other women. The question is why do you have a beef with these women talking about their devalution? You apparently do have some sort of problem with black women talking about this because you talk about it here and over at your site quite a lot, telling them to suck it up like short men do :-), for some odd reason.
On your site, you urged more black men to speak out about their pain, but you want black women to be quiet?
There is “NOTHING” you can do to change the minds of the HBDers either, yet you regularly assail them. That is also a “massive timesuck.” Why don’t you be quiet towards them? Why don’t you just suck it up like you say short men do and move on the way you exhort black women to do?
O: For the most part, Black Men do indeed get on with it; when’s the last time you saw a national conversation taking place along said lines? I’ll wait…
The million man march WAS a national conversation among or about black men, wasn’t it? There’re always the conversations hosted by Tavis Smiley and others who focus on black men primarily. There are lots of articles and such.
From the articles I read on your site, you talked a lot about the plight of black men. Why deny that?
Insofar as opportunities that black women don’t get, then just by your assertions that men are the gatekeepers who allow the most attractive, (based on their notions of “hotness”) women to come through the gate, then anyone reading this can easily infer that there are plenty of gates open to “hot” white women that are closed to black women in many areas, and some of those gates are even controlled by black men.
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Joriba,
I do because they are other, much more important and pressing, fish to fry for Black Women that they either can’t or won’t address, that’s why. And its understandable, because who really wants to address really important and ugly problems THEY can do something about?
As for Smilely, please name for the the many forums he’s conducted that focused on Black Men, I’d sure like to hear about them and I’ve watched virtually every one of his annual forums for a decade now. I’ll wait…
Again, I’ve written upwards of 300 posts on my blog and not more than a dozen were geared specifically toward Black Men, and quite a few garnered very little response from Black Men themselves.
I, and a suspect more people than they’re willing to openly admit, are simply tired of hearing Black Women complain. They’ve made gains that are unparalleled in the history of human beings. They need to just get on with it already. And I think this is why there are quarters of the Profressional Pity Party Grievance Sistahood that wants to shut voices like mine down, because we’re getting tired of hearing the constant complaints over nothing at the end of the day and are starting to demand that Black Women start taking a good, hard look as to why the real problems in their lives are not only going unaddressed by them, but are often of their own making. As my blog shows, the truth, hurts…
Holla back
O.
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This thread seems to have gone quiet again. So maybe its time for me to comment. I do have to wonder where this is going Obsidian !!!
You see thats part of the ongoing mystification here. I am certainly no more clearer, despite diligently wading through most of your responses to other commentators, (beats watching TV sometimes!!!) including mine; WHAT EXACTLY IS THE POINT YOU ARE MAKING?
Assuming you have been attempting to to do this and not a 2+2=5 debate as Abagond commented way back here.
Buts lets say your really trying to say something here which is a bit more than obvious. For instance. Just recently in response to jorbia you posted this:
I added the “NOT” because I am assuming this is a word you meant to include. – I don’t think I fully comprehend that part otherwise.
Anyway, as you say, MOVING ON… And I think jorbia does a good job of responding to this in her follow up post…
What you effectively have been saying; and you used the ridiculous example of short men to illustrate this; is summed up, for me, in this statement:
Black women should stop perpetuating the cycle of playing the victim; acknowledge their position in white society; but then disregard these limitations and MOVE ON.
Now if you’re saying anything more than this then you will have to make it clearer because I haven’t read anything of merit more than what I’ve echoed in that statement so far.
You did express this to me in your last post about your idea of MOVING ON (reposted just to refresh your mind…):
This to me seems consistent with what you expressed to Jorbia and my own assessments of what your saying so far. Which is why I specifically put this question to you in my original/First post:
Just to make myself clearer here. I am saying OK. LETS MOVE ON. BUT WHERE ARE WE MOVING ON TO????
Yes. Lets agree Black women should accept their lot in a paranoid racist white society. Stop bitching an playing the victim but where should they be moving on to????
For me this is the one specific question YOU Obsidian are not honestly addressing. If you have a view on this. And I am assuming you do why not be upfront and just say where you believe Black women should be moving on to.
By now, unless I’ve misrepresented your view, I think most people have gotten your point. So please explain in detail or one line (which ever is more agreeable) where you think Black women should be focused on going from here?
Perhaps then we could engage a more exploratative and open discussion instead of this perceived talking over everyone who disagrees with your empassioned viewpoint.
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I do because they are other, much more important and pressing, fish to fry for Black Women that they either can’t or won’t address, that’s why.
Oh, so you are taking on the role of adviser to black women? 🙂 You think you know what’s best for black women? I believe that MOST people talk or vent about what they consider to be most important TO THEM.
As for Smilely, please name for the the many forums he’s conducted that focused on Black Men, I’d sure like to hear about them and I’ve watched virtually every one of his annual forums for a decade now. I’ll wait…
No matter what I cite, you would just dismiss it or minimize it if it’s not what you think or believe. We both know that. Isn’t that what some of you are talking about on that other thread here now, about how people invest in a belief and will not change, despite all good evidence to the contrary.
Insofar as black women having other more pressing concerns in your opinion, I think you’re alluding to what I read on your site that single professional black women should just settle down with blue collar black men? Some professional black women have decided that’s not what’s best for them. That’s an unattractive choice to them, just like lots of men will not accept a woman who they consider to be very unattrractive, no matter how wonderful she may be.
.
quarters of the Profressional Pity Party Grievance Sistahood that wants to shut voices like mine down, because we’re getting tired of hearing the constant complaints over nothing at the end of the day and are starting to demand that Black Women start taking a good, hard look as to why the real problems in their lives are not only going unaddressed by them, but are often of their own making. As my blog shows, the truth, hurts…
Black women have to listen to the gripes of other people all of the time, so you can choose to listen to black women’s gripes or not.
I haven’t read where anyone is trying to shut you up, not nearly to the extent you try to shut black women up, on your site and her.
If you’re talking about your site’s shut down, didn’t YOU say here somewhere that was because you infringed on that woman’s rights? Why blame her, if you’re blaming her. I certainly wouldn’t care whether voices like yours are out there or not because I can choose to listen or not. I’m “choosing” to listen to you and I’m choosing to respond. I “chose” to read your posts on your site. No one forced me. NO ONE is forcing you to listen to black women.
YOU are the one who’s seemingly trying to shut down black women’s venting voices by exhorting black women repeatedly to be quiet and model their behavior after short men. You and anyone else can ignore black women if you don’t want to hear them vent, yet you’re now accusing black women of trying to shut you up. :;)
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“The Human Genome Project has already shown that humans are 99.99% genetically the same. ”
Lewontin’s fallacy, really Zek? I thought you were too smart. That’s SNP pairs, not alleles. We’re also over 94% genetically the same as mice, by that metric.
“I think I do want a big juicy lollipop.”
“I think I do not want a big juicy lollipop.”
Those sentences are almost genetically the same!
There, dispelled that silly statistic with an elementary analogy for you.
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@obsidian: yep, they had they guns drawn untill they noticed that I was a white guy. The other incidient, with some AIM guys, they did not have pistols, they had assault rifles and they were Feds, and there my long black hair and ponytail did not improve the situation. It was only after they established that I was indeed a white foreigner I got different treatment, but till then…
Just try to figure out your point: are you saying that black women should shut up and put up because short black men have to do so? Or what? I can’t figure out what you want to say.
Try to answer with a little shorter text, please. Those ramblings are too long for me, sorry. Thanks.
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“Groups as myriad as the SPLC to the ADL have all shown, and labeled Mr. Rushton what he is: a racist.”
As “myriad” as “the SPLC and ADL”?
LOL! Why not throw the One peoples project in there too, for good measure! All far left blank slate liberal creationists.
astrophysicist Steve Hsu is working with the BGI to find the genetic basis of intelliegence, and he has no problem with the validity of Jensen, Rushton, et al’s work:
http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2010/10/some-data-on-regression.html#disqus_thread
Perhaps you could head over there and let the genius know that he has it all backwards!
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jorbia says,
-So we’re talking about a woman’s “worth” here. The basic issue here is that a lot of black women are devalued and rejected simply because they don’t look “hot” like “hot” white women. That deprives those black women of various types of opportunities that “hot” white women get in this society. You need to stop trivializing that.
-Oh, so you are taking on the role of adviser to black women? You think you know what’s best for black women?
-Insofar as black women having other more pressing concerns in your opinion, I think you’re alluding to what I read on your site that single professional black women should just settle down with blue collar black men? Some professional black women have decided that’s not what’s best for them. That’s an unattractive choice to them, just like lots of men will not accept a woman who they consider to be very unattrractive, no matter how wonderful she may be.
-Black women have to listen to the gripes of other people all of the time, so you can choose to listen to black women’s gripes or not.
I haven’t read where anyone is trying to shut you up, not nearly to the extent you try to shut black women up, on your site and her.
-Insofar as black women having other more pressing concerns in your opinion, I think you’re alluding to what I read on your site that single professional black women should just settle down with blue collar black men? Some professional black women have decided that’s not what’s best for them. That’s an unattractive choice to them, just like lots of men will not accept a woman who they consider to be very unattrractive, no matter how wonderful she may be.
-YOU are the one who’s seemingly trying to shut down black women’s venting voices by exhorting black women repeatedly to be quiet and model their behavior after short men. You and anyone else can ignore black women if you don’t want to hear them vent, yet you’re now accusing black women of trying to shut you up. :;)
laromana says,
jorbia, thanks for trying to REASON with IGNORANT/INSOLENT ANTI-BW RACIST BM.
It NEVER ceases to AMAZE me how ANTI-BW BM who GO OUT OF THEIR WAY TO PUBLICLY DEGRADE BW/COULD CARE LESS about the HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY of BW feel they have the RIGHT to DICTATE HOW BW should live THEIR LIVES.
As I’ve said MANY times, unless ANY man is a PRO-BW SUPPORTER, he has NO RIGHT STICKING his nose in BW’S BUSINESS or TRYING to tell us how to live OUR LIVES.
Until an ANTI-BW BM learns to RESPECT BW and fulfill HIS RESPONSIBILITY of STANDING UP in DEFENSE of his SAME RACE WOMEN WHO BIRTHED HIM, he needs to SHUT HIS MOUTH, MIND HIS OWN BUSINESS, and STAY OUT of BW’S LIVES.
BW have the RIGHT to be treated with the SAME CONSIDERATION/RESPECT as NON-BW and we should NOT have to SETTLE for DISRESPECTFUL, DEMEANING, DEGRADING, RACIST ANTI-BW treatment.
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Sam,
YES, I am saying to Black Women that, in the year 2010, there is not a heck of a lot for them to be complaining about. And that should be viewed as a GOOD THING. Moreover, there are other groups of people who face being the low man on the totem pole too by “society” and it would do well for Black Women to take a page out of these other groups’ books and apply it to themselves. shorter guys are discriminated against in all manner of ways, yet they find a way to get on with their lives, find mates, have a life and call it a day. Black Women have the same ability to do this. That some of them either can’t, and in many more instances than we’re willing to admit, won’t, do this, is really the issue that we need to be discussing, not how “society” views them.
Clear now?
😉
O.
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Hi Jorbia,
Replies below:
“I do because they are other, much more important and pressing, fish to fry for Black Women that they either can’t or won’t address, that’s why.”
J: Oh, so you are taking on the role of adviser to black women? You think you know what’s best for black women? I believe that MOST people talk or vent about what they consider to be most important TO THEM.
O: Yes, that’s right, and most of what they consider important to them, is either off-base to begin with, or deeply flawed for other reasons. Very often, we are incapable of being objective about these kinds of things. That’s why consultants became important.
O: As for Smilely, please name for the the many forums he’s conducted that focused on Black Men, I’d sure like to hear about them and I’ve watched virtually every one of his annual forums for a decade now. I’ll wait…
J: No matter what I cite, you would just dismiss it or minimize it if it’s not what you think or believe.
O: Not necessarily. I just want to see if you can back up what you assert with actual facts.
J: We both know that. Isn’t that what some of you are talking about on that other thread here now, about how people invest in a belief and will not change, despite all good evidence to the contrary.
O: Sure, but that isn’t me. If you can provide clear and present proof where I’m wrong on something I will consider it.
J: Insofar as black women having other more pressing concerns in your opinion, I think you’re alluding to what I read on your site that single professional black women should just settle down with blue collar black men? Some professional black women have decided that’s not what’s best for them. That’s an unattractive choice to them, just like lots of men will not accept a woman who they consider to be very unattrractive, no matter how wonderful she may be.
O: Yes, that’s some of it, though there’s more, much, much more. Let’s examine the more than 70% out of wedlock birthrate, shall we? Now, the conventional conversation tends to focus exclusively on the “deadbeat dads”, but human sexuality says that, barring rape, the female chooses. So, shouldn’t we begin the examination there? Why can’t Black Women examine their poor mating choices that leads to such a sorry state of affairs to begin with? Wait, I got it – “society” has something to do with that, too – right?
And, you didn’t quite get the above right. I did indeed mention some of what you said above, but I also was careful to say that Black Women have every right to decide for themselves what their lives will be and who they choose to share said lives with – but they then can’t complain if things don’t turn out the way they had hoped.
So, if a Sista finds that she simply can’t “settle” for a Blue Collar Brotha, that’s fine – but if she also finds herself not being able to attract and/or hold on to the more Professional Brothas more to her liking, she has no one but herself to blame. Such is life and adults tend to understand that. Keep it moving. We really don’t wanna hear about your having to Dumb It Down and so forth.
.
“quarters of the Profressional Pity Party Grievance Sistahood that wants to shut voices like mine down, because we’re getting tired of hearing the constant complaints over nothing at the end of the day and are starting to demand that Black Women start taking a good, hard look as to why the real problems in their lives are not only going unaddressed by them, but are often of their own making. As my blog shows, the truth, hurts…”
J: Black women have to listen to the gripes of other people all of the time, so you can choose to listen to black women’s gripes or not.
O: Uh, isn’t it Black Women who try to, in one way or another, to shut down Hip Hop? Yea, real openminded cohort there…
J: I haven’t read where anyone is trying to shut you up, not nearly to the extent you try to shut black women up, on your site and her.
O: Uh huh…
J: If you’re talking about your site’s shut down, didn’t YOU say here somewhere that was because you infringed on that woman’s rights?
O: Yes, that’s correct; it was based on a technicality, but one that was used for other than honorable reasons. The actual reason was because she nor her White Knight enabling boyfriend couldn’t attack what I said, and she couldn’t hack it, and so, there you go.
J: Why blame her, if you’re blaming her.
O: I blame her because that’s where the blame belongs.
J: I certainly wouldn’t care whether voices like yours are out there or not because I can choose to listen or not. I’m “choosing” to listen to you and I’m choosing to respond. I “chose” to read your posts on your site. No one forced me. NO ONE is forcing you to listen to black women.
O: No? Their voice is ubiquitous, from Oprah on down. Black Women have had their voices heard continuously for what, easily two decades running now – with no end in sight? Sheesh…
J: YOU are the one who’s seemingly trying to shut down black women’s venting voices by exhorting black women repeatedly to be quiet and model their behavior after short men. You and anyone else can ignore black women if you don’t want to hear them vent, yet you’re now accusing black women of trying to shut you up. :;)
O: Nonsense, please point out to me the blogs or writers I want to see shutdown or silenced? I’ll wait…
Keep trying, Jorbia, one of these days you’ll get it… 😉
O.
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Kwamla,
Please see my replies to Sam and Jorbia for answers to your questions put to me. If you have any further questions, by all means don’t hesitate to ask!:)
O.
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Kwamla,
Well if anyone needs to move on, shouldn’t it be Abagond? There wouldn’t be a conversation if he didn’t write a post about it.
Move on, Abagond, move on! Don’t make me get the cattle prod. 😛
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@ Anon
The general scientific consensus seems to be that while it is possible to isolate genetic differences between racial populations, those differences don’t amount to anything more significant than differences within racial populations, which may be even more variable.
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Anon,
“Lewontin’s fallacy, really Zek? I thought you were too smart. That’s SNP pairs, not alleles. We’re also over 94% genetically the same as mice, by that metric. ”
the difference is mice and people cannot reproduce and have viable offspring togethere…whereas humans of different “ethnicities,” can reproduce and have completely healthy, viable offspring. if we were really that genetically/biologically different could we do that??
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“The general scientific consensus seems to be that while it is possible to isolate genetic differences between racial populations, those differences don’t amount to anything more significant than differences within racial populations, which may be even more variable.”
There’s a “general scientific consensus” on whatever reporters decide is politically correct at the moment. Behind the scenes, there’s a lot more controversy. Multi-regionalism is coming back in a big way. The recent neanderthal admixture revelation is just the tip of the iceberg. Prepare yourself for more admixture papers, again in some populations and not others. Also mentally prepare yourself for what China is doing researchwise with genetics and intelligence.
To your point, another liberal creationist fallacy often trouted about is the “within population differences exceed group differences”, due to the liberal war on statistical thinking.
There’s more weather variation at the locales of florida and NY than there is between them. That doesn’t mean they have the same overall climates.
There’s more height variation between people in Thailand than there is between Thailand and the US. That doesn’t mean that Thais will produce any numbers of NBA players anytime soon.
etc
etc
“the difference is mice and people cannot reproduce and have viable offspring togethere”
Which completely makes my point. Small differences have huge effects. Genes have to be looked at via their funtional units, which are alleles, not SNPs.
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Why do liberal creationists expect that all human traits will be distributed EXACTLY EVENLY across all human populations across space and time, despite enourmously varying selective pressures? Why do they believe that human evolution stopped at the neck?
What god is overseeing this magical thing?
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@ Anon,
The fact that human-beings are 99.99% the same actually means a lot more than an interesting grammar lesson. But good attempt at making a bad a parallel! Yes, we are 94% similar to mice — and 98% similar to apes — but to other humans we are 99.99% similar. Hell, some populations are even closer than that, and they don’t even live that close! But like I said, good try.
Now, I’m sure Steve Hsu is a wonderful astrophysicist, but frankly that doesn’t mean a damn thing. (In his post he’s speculating on the reason for IQ variation as much as anyone I noticed.) It’s simply put: not his field. Oh, and one person or even two people who say something does not make it true — no matter how much you want it to be ; )
But I do mention the SPLC and ADL because those are groups whose main issues are dealing with racism, anti-Semitism, and other forms of prejudice. They keep an eye out for things like that. However, if you want scientists who’re saying the same thing, let me give you some: American Anthropologist magazine, Journal of Black Studies, American Psychological Association, American Anthropological Association, Stephen Jay Gould, James Flynn, the list goes on and on, but I don’t really want to ramble.
The point is: HBD has been debunked. It’s about as scientific as intelligent design or creationism.
Hopefully you don’t believe in those either.
P.S. Lewontin is Jewish. In the HBD world shouldn’t that make him smarter than Hsu or Sailer, or even you? Hell, since I’m Jewish too, I guess that means I’m smarter than you as well! =P
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Zek,
Actually, per the reasoning of the HBDers, you would indeed be cognitively superior to Gentile Whites and even many Asians, on average. Jewish folk are deemed to be among if not thee smartest of the White races.
Again, to me the point of interest is, what do the HBDers wish to do with the “supreme knowledge”? Again, I maintain that science doesnt mean a heck of a lot without seeing how it actually plays out in the real world, like all ideas, no matter what their origin. It seems clear to me that the HBDers want to change or otherwise influence public policy – that, because some racial groups aren’t as smart as others, it is a waste of public resources to invest in say, schools in Black neighborhoods, or Affirmative Action and how it should be ended because it gives opportunities to inherently dimmer Blacks and shunts aside more deserving Whites, and so forth. Because of the way the debate” is structured right now, we can infer these things, but we never get to hear these things come straight from the HBDers themselves, and the big reason for that is because we keep quibbling over the science of it or the lack thereof. I want to hear them say, outright, what they intend to DO with HBD. That’s a much more fruitful and engaging discussion to have, on a whole host of levels, rather than a somewhat limiting and esoteric to layman’s ears, debate over its science, legitimate or not.
This is why I support Jason’s view – let’s have a full throated debate on HBD, in the public square. This will give the HBDers the chance to state how things would be run if they had the chance to do so – and it then gives us the chance to examine, in the light of day, their views.
See, I don’t need science, one way or another, to deal with HBD. All I need are commonsense and the US Constitution.
Period.
I say, bring on the HBDers! They don’t stand a chance…
O.
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…expect that all human traits will be distributed EXACTLY EVENLY across all human populations across space and time, despite enourmously varying selective pressures?
My guess would be insufficient time in isolation for significant changes to occur.
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“It’s simply put: not his field. ”
Actually, it is.
That’s the thing about being a physicist, you’re smart enough to do pretty much whatever you want.
Do you think the Beijing Genome Institute would be inviting him for lectures and collaboration if he knew nothing? Since he gets paid to work in the field, it is his field. Now.
“But I do mention the SPLC and ADL because those are groups whose main issues are dealing with racism, anti-Semitism, and other forms of prejudice. They keep an eye out for things like that. ”
They are left-wing (at least when it comes to America, on Israel, they curiously take a more sensible tack – wonder why?) political groups who smear anyone who doesn’t agree with their version of blank slate liberal creationism.
“However, if you want scientists who’re saying the same thing, let me give you some: American Anthropologist magazine, Journal of Black Studies, American Psychological Association, American Anthropological Association, Stephen Jay Gould, ”
Anthropology hardly counts as science. And why don’t you ask any evolutionary biologist what they think of SJG? (Hint: his reputation in the field is as lustrous as mud, and it has nothing to do with just M.o.M.)
“James Flynn”
The only respectable person you’ve named thusfar, since he was last, I hope you’ll continue that trajectory. Personally, I think if you take the time to read the rebuttals, Flynn gets pwned quite handsomely. But at least he deals with data and not verbal gymnastic or anthropological “interpretive soft science” like most anthropologists (I grant there are a few good ones, however most of the field hardly counts as science).
“The point is: HBD has been debunked. It’s about as scientific as intelligent design or creationism.”
?
HBD is a natural consequence of rejecting creationism. You don’t know what you are talking about, if you think you can tie HBD to creationism!
The same evolutionary pressures that caused visible differences between you and your GF caused other differences as well.
“Lewontin is Jewish. In the HBD world shouldn’t that make him smarter than Hsu or Sailer, or even you? Hell, since I’m Jewish too, I guess that means I’m smarter than you as well!”
You must be on the left side of the jewish bell curve if you think you can directly project group averages on individual performance.
Like I said, liberals have declared war on statistical truths.
“My guess would be insufficient time in isolation for significant changes to occur.”
Tell that to lactose tolerace, Sickle cell, or to other MEASURABLE differences like brain size and performance. : )
How many white men have run the 100m dash in under 10 seconds again? How many non-West Africans?
Come on man, take off your blinders.
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HBD is everywhere you look: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1261675/
Take off the blinders and don’t be a liberal creationist.
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Hahaha, Anon, you’re like a text-book case of scientific racism. You’re something straight out of a comic-book!
You’re grabbing at any straw to prove your point and ignoring all the people telling you they’re not gonna hold up the stack of cards.
It’d be funny if it didn’t remind me that people like you actually exist. So sad =/
But I’ll pass on further debate. The world proved that what you’re saying is wrong a loooooong time ago, and has been doing it every day since.
P.S. Read Abagond’s Last Man Talking post. You might be a text-book case there too.
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Anon,
That’s the thing about being a physicist, you’re smart enough to do pretty much whatever you want.
I am sorry, but it doesn’t work that way.
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@ Calculator
said about the research that men are naturally drawn to fairer skin thats a bag of bull. the white men that are surrounded by black women are very much attracted to them. you should see white men in africa, and the carribbean. it is very natural for male and female to be attracted to each other no matter what race.
i’m sorry nichole kidman do not look better than halle berry as fair as she be, and she don’t look better than jennifer lopez to me. also white is associated with purity and virgin. please in some cultures white women are looked at as the most immoral women on earth, men just want to screw them thats it.
its taught and marketed and depends on what society you live in. white men and white women was taught these myths by their parents and very much master taught it to his slaves and his bastard children etc. distributed by white supremacy. its the respect behind it for black and white. they where taught not to respect black women. all this preference bullcrap doesn’t come naturally babe. it have alot to do with money and power . OLUMFEMI seem to be making sense. the people that will more understand what i’m talking about is the ones that travels. its not one standard of beauty
excuse my spelling
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medium says,
@ Calculator
said about the research that men are naturally drawn to fairer skin thats a bag of bull. the white men that are surrounded by black women are very much attracted to them. you should see white men in africa, and the carribbean. it is very natural for male and female to be attracted to each other no matter what race.
its taught and marketed and depends on what society you live in. white men and white women was taught these myths by their parents and very much master taught it to his slaves and his bastard children etc. distributed by white supremacy. its the respect behind it for black and white. they where taught not to respect black women. all this preference bullcrap doesn’t come naturally babe. it have alot to do with money and power . OLUMFEMI seem to be making sense. the people that will more understand what i’m talking about is the ones that travels. its not one standard of beauty
excuse my spelling
laromana says,
EXCELLENT comment, medium.
ANTI-BW RACISM is the REAL REASON MOST American men DISCRIMINATE against BW.
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I feel like the odd one out here, because I’m a “swirler” (WM married to BW with kids) who actually thinks “HBD” is true. I don’t think it is polite or very nice though. There’s not a single policy that public HBD acceptance would bring about that you can’t get to from a classical liberal position. There’s no need to rub in people’s faces facts about group differences just to argue against policies like affirmative action. Ward Connerly does fine without it.
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I feel like the odd one out here, because I’m a “swirler” (WM married to BW with kids) who actually thinks “HBD” is true.
So you think your swirled kids are likely to be more athletic, but unfortunately, less intelligent than you are.
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I feel like the odd one out here, because I’m a “swirler” (WM married to BW with kids) who actually thinks “HBD” is true.
That’s bizarre.
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That Anon guy is hilarious! And this HBD is really funny! Are these comedians or what?:-D
“That’s the thing about being a physicist, you’re smart enough to do pretty much whatever you want.”:-D
Don’t kid yourself Anon. I have a world class physicist in my family and even he does not belive that crap. And I can assure you, this Steven Hsu guy is no where near my relatives class in physics internationally, no where near. 😀
And what is this thing about evolution? Are you seriously denying it? That is hilarious!! You may not know but nowhere, absolutely nowhere in the field of science, in the World, that is outside of the US based creationist cuckoo circles, nobody is seriously thinking that. If you think they are, try to study evolution. It may not be what your preacher has told you. 😀
I understand that you are scared for some who-knows-why reason that there are smart people in other colors too and that they might be much better in all aspects of life than you, but hey, thats the way things are. You can pretend all you want that some weirdo “science” proves that you are smarter than they are just because of your skin color but let me get you in on a secret: it does not. 😀
And how this HDB or what the F it was is connected to the subject at hand? Does this Hocus Pocus prove that white women are gentically prettier than black? 😀 What a science, what a science! 😀
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White men generally think that white women are more attractive. White women generally think that white men are more attractive. Black men generally think that black women are more attractive. Black women generally think that black men are more attractive. And so on. Obviously there are plenty of exceptions to this but as a general rule it’s valid.
These preferences are reflected in the media. That’s really all there is to it. If the markets were such that blacks were the largest and most profitable group then probably the general standards would be different.
It doesn’t necessarily mean that a person is “racist” if they have a preference. They may be or they may not be. Most people have preferences. Some are stronger than others.
Again, getting too bent out of shape over things you can’t control doesn’t seem to make a whole lot of sense. What is more under a person’s control, the aesthetic and sexual preferences of billions of people or how they relate and respond to the loved one/significant other(s) in their own life?
Support media that you like and do not support media that you don’t like. But if a person wants to do a Pickett’s Charge against something as hidebound as people liking themselves, good luck with that.
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“It doesn’t necessarily mean that a person is “racist” if they have a preference. They may be or they may not be. Most people have preferences. Some are stronger than others.”
You’re missing the point. It’s not whether a PERSON’S preference is racist. It’s whether society as a whole is racist for promoting the idea that WW are the most beautiful and BW are the least.
This is a great example of how inextricably woven into the fabric of society white supremacy is.
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“You’re missing the point. It’s not whether a PERSON’S preference is racist. It’s whether society as a whole is racist for promoting the idea that WW are the most beautiful and BW are the least.”
Society (at least in the US) is mostly white. It is nothing more than the aggregate of millions of individual preferences. It would be unusual to say the least if media that was largely made for and by white people, reflected anything other than the sum of white preferences-which is ..white.
There is plenty of black media created for a black consumer. That’s what people need to create, support and consume. There is no other solution.
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“White men generally think that white women are more attractive. White women generally think that white men are more attractive. Black men generally think that black women are more attractive. Black women generally think that black men are more attractive. And so on. Obviously there are plenty of exceptions to this but as a general rule it’s valid.”
you speak as if these preferences are perfectly natural. Is that what you think?
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@ Obsidian
O: Yes, that’s right, and most of what they consider important to them, is either off-base to begin with, or deeply flawed for other reasons. Very often, we are incapable of being objective about these kinds of things. That’s why consultants became important.
Well, if you have taken it upon yourself to be the consultant to all black women, then I guess you shouldn’t have any objection to Bill Cosby taking it upon himself to be the consultant to all black American men. You also shouldn’t object to black women or anyone else telling black men what to do either because fair is fair.
About black women poorly choosing mates, I completely agree. I don’t know why they even bother with those men. There are apparently a very low level of professional black men, compared to black women, so I don’t know why they would even focus on those few men. Someone certainly needs to convince black men to stay in school, but I know that you don’t approve of that, so excuse me for being a consultant to black men about that. 🙂
About that conversation about black men that you seem to want, it seems to me that black men are constantly talked about and it’s often said they are failing on every front. I don’t know exactly what else you think needs to be said. Don’t you get tired of hearing that?
@ Shady Grady
Society (at least in the US) is mostly white. It is nothing more than the aggregate of millions of individual preferences. It would be unusual to say the least if media that was largely made for and by white people, reflected anything other than the sum of white preferences-which is ..white.
It seems like whites choosing white based on their “preference” is okay with you? If you’re a black man, that’s surprising because don’t you see that whites will ALSO choose other whites for the best jobs, the best health care, the best housing, and so on. That’s exactly why white racism is viewed as bad and needs to be eradicated. When you consider the HUGE power differential between blacks and whites, white “preference” for other whites is always going to be very bad news for blacks.
And–
There is plenty of black media created for a black consumer. That’s what people need to create, support and consume. There is no other solution.
Even in black media, there tends to be a preference for lighter more European looking women, so that is not the solution, at least not from the standpoint of a lot of black American women, apparently . I’ve read many times where American black women have criticized black American men about their tendency to think that whiter women are more beautiful.
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“And what is this thing about evolution? Are you seriously denying it? That is hilarious!!”
Those high-IQ physicist genes do not run strong in you, my padawan.
Try reading comprehension. His point is that HBD-denialism IS creationism. Denying HBD is akin to denying evolution, for incredibly obvious reasons. There’s no “social construct” that gives Aboriginals brains that are only 80% the size of European brains, for instance.
The best way to demonstrate HBD is to compare blacks and Asians. Blacks on average have smaller, lighter brains and -not coincidentally- significantly lower IQs than NE Asians. Every study that has looked at it, has come to the same conclusion. Blacks are also physically much more robust, with higher proportions of fast-twitch muscles. Thus they dominate athletic events that Asians could never dream of being competitive in, such as the 100M dash.
These group averages do not mean there is no overlap in the distributions, before anyone brings up that idiotic counterpoint again.
Why is HBD silenced in public discourse nowadays? Well, look at the tempest in a teapot in Oceania over the Maori “warrior gene”. That’s just a small fraction of the outrage that would occur if studies showing racial differences in average cognitive ability came to light.
Fortunately, thanks in no small part to research in homogenous China that is undertaken completely free of the PC demands of underperforming minorities, within a few years the truth will be widely known. Blank Slatism is false. Creationism is false. Humans were not all created equal, because we were not created. William Saletan bravely tried to prepare liberals for this eventuality here: http://www.slate.com/id/2178122/entry/2178123/
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The fact of the matter is, yes, society does make white women, on average, seem more beautiful than they are. The fact of the matter is, though admittedly I have no studies by which to prove this, most people are “average” looking. Further, one’s understanding of beauty is both influenced by nature and nurture, so I wouldn’t be surprised if a white male who lived a rather insular existence (e.g.-lived in a predominantly white suburb/city/town, watched television programs with predominantly white people being featured, watched movies with a predominantly white cast, etc.) showed a distinct preference toward white women. Further, I wouldn’t be surprised if any man/male raised under those circumstances, or similar ones, presented the same or a similar preference.
However, what one comes to understand based on these conclusions is that the understanding of beauty as we know it is not objective, ergo no one can actually say whether or not any “group/race” of women is the “most beautiful”. Society, at least as it currently stands in the States, is inundated with images and subliminal messages which try to get you to buy into an ideal which may, or may not, be in one’s best interest or make any rational sense.
Regardless, I believe it is patently foolish, not to mention ridiculous, to make assertions pertaining certain types of beauty being universal. For all we know, further down the line of human development and evolution, straight hair, or hair period, could be found to be absolute repulsive. The same could be said for certain coloured eyes, hair colours, etc. Concepts of beauty are not stagnant or eternal, so if you someone wants to believe that white women are the most beautiful women on earth based on some nonobjective unpeer-reviewed (yes, I made that word up) “study”, I say let them.
In some length of time, whether short of long, they’ll just end up looking silly and archaic as humanity, as a species, marches on.
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Hello Jorbia,
Replies below:
J: @ Obsidian
O: Yes, that’s right, and most of what they consider important to them, is either off-base to begin with, or deeply flawed for other reasons. Very often, we are incapable of being objective about these kinds of things. That’s why consultants became important.
J: Well, if you have taken it upon yourself to be the consultant to all black women, then I guess you shouldn’t have any objection to Bill Cosby taking it upon himself to be the consultant to all black American men. You also shouldn’t object to black women or anyone else telling black men what to do either because fair is fair.
O: I don’t recall Black Men complaining to the degree that Black Womendo, writ large. There is no Black Male equivalents to Oprah, or Essence, Jill Scott or Bene Viera. Do you? If so, I’d sure like to hear about them. By all means, run out a list so we can address them as well!
J: About black women poorly choosing mates, I completely agree.
O: So why aren’t Black Women like YOU addressing that?
J: I don’t know why they even bother with those men.
O: Again, Black Women like YOU need to be stepping to these Sistas. But you aren’t. Why NOT?
J: There are apparently a very low level of professional black men, compared to black women, so I don’t know why they would even focus on those few men.
O: That’s easy. Its called hypergamy.
J: Someone certainly needs to convince black men to stay in school, but I know that you don’t approve of that, so excuse me for being a consultant to black men about that.
O: I don’t take a position one way or another wrt Black Men and college/school; what I say is that there is more than one way to actualize oneself in this world, and we ought not be boxed into a corner on this issue. Black Women though, like all Women, are creatures of the heard, and have a very difficult time thinking outside of the box – this is especially true of Black Women who’ve had the college experience. So, this is one of the reasons why they find themselves in the situation they’re in when it comes to relationships. There are other reasons, but as we’ve both established, Black Women in aggregate aren’t a terribly introspective lot, hence the need for people like me to make this plain and clear to them. Of course, the likelihood that they’ll actually listen and apply any of this is another matter – I won’t hold my breath, that’s for sure…
J: About that conversation about black men that you seem to want, it seems to me that black men are constantly talked about and it’s often said they are failing on every front. I don’t know exactly what else you think needs to be said. Don’t you get tired of hearing that?
O: No, because that’s not what I’m asking; I am asking for Black Men to speak in their own words on these issuesw. Black Men are talked about, as you rightly noted, but they rarely if ever are asked to speak for themselves. If we listen, we just might be surprised at what they have to say. I’ll give you a clue – rappers.
J: @ Shady Grady
Society (at least in the US) is mostly white. It is nothing more than the aggregate of millions of individual preferences. It would be unusual to say the least if media that was largely made for and by white people, reflected anything other than the sum of white preferences-which is ..white.
It seems like whites choosing white based on their “preference” is okay with you? If you’re a black man, that’s surprising because don’t you see that whites will ALSO choose other whites for the best jobs, the best health care, the best housing, and so on. That’s exactly why white racism is viewed as bad and needs to be eradicated. When you consider the HUGE power differential between blacks and whites, white “preference” for other whites is always going to be very bad news for blacks.
And–
There is plenty of black media created for a black consumer. That’s what people need to create, support and consume. There is no other solution.
Even in black media, there tends to be a preference for lighter more European looking women, so that is not the solution, at least not from the standpoint of a lot of black American women, apparently . I’ve read many times where American black women have criticized black American men about their tendency to think that whiter women are more beautiful.
O: Then the solution is for more darker skinned Women to make their own media, like Oprah Winfrey did. In fact, they can directly appeal to her for help and funding, etc, especially now that she has her own network. Stop complaining about what others want for themselves. Life isn’t fair, and you don’t have a right to a Man, nor do you have the right to determine for him what he thinks is or is not beautiful.
O.
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jas0nburns wrote
“you speak as if these preferences are perfectly natural. Is that what you think?”
Beauty is both biologically and culturally determined. It does seem to be universal that all else equal each group on average thinks itself to be the epitome of beauty. Humans are tribalistic. I don’t see that changing any time soon.
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In my opinion, black women are just as beautiful as white woman. Our beauty maybe different but it is just as pleasing as any other group. We have beautiful brown skin, full sultry lips, voluptous figures, and beautiful almond shaped eyes. The only thing some black women don’t have, according to most people, is the hair. But that, in my opinion, is just a myth as well. Many black women do have long, thick hair. Beauty, in my opinion, is a result of being healthy. If you take good care of yourself and are healthy, plus have a positive attitude about yourself, then you are way more likely to be beautiful. Race has nothing to do with it. We live in a society that says that you have to be white in order to be beautiful, but that is just one of the many lies that this society tries to force down our throats. In the 70’s, we celebrated our beauty. We allowed our hair to be natural and we believed that “black is beautiful”. And, oh boy, our people were so beautiful and elegant, back then. What a wonderful time. We need to get back to that.
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“There is NOTHING “child like” about racism. It is an Adult disease which children are TAUGHT. Further, YOUR idea of racism is mixed with critique. We are discussing an issue. No one is being racist and EVERYONE is entitled to their opinon. ”
The vast majority of racism is expressed in a subtle/coded/passive aggressive form. Anti-mixed racism is almost entirely of this variety so most people don’t even recognize that it exists. The one drop rule functions to conceal black on mixed racism.
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We, as a people, shouldn’t wait for white people to find us attractive. What do white people have to do with it anyway? If we wait for other races to put us on a pedestal, we will be waiting for a long time. It is up to us to define for ourselves what beauty is. We did it in the 70’s, quite successfully, I might add. And we can do it again. I hate to say this, but sometimes we can be our own worst enemies. No one can make you feel inferior without your permission. In the 70’s, we celebrated our natural beauty, but for some reason, our people started to abandon those principles. By the late-70’s, we started to embrace white standards of beauty again. We abandoned our Afro’s and began to take up old patterns of behavior. I am not saying that one has to wear an Afro in order to promote black beauty, but we should develope similar attitudes that we once had before. We can’t wait for the larger society to embrace us. Like I said before, they don’t have anything to do with it. We must do it.
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And black women, don’t wait for all black men to accept your beauty either. A few black men may not care about how black women are perceived, because they may feel that if it doesn’t affect them, why should they care? It is a lack of sensitivity and maturity on their part. Don’t let it stop you from treasuring yourself. Make the right choices for you, no matter what anyone might think. If you don’t love yourself, then no one will. So practice self-love and don’t let other people’s attidude get you down.
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jorbia wrote
“It seems like whites choosing white based on their “preference” is okay with you? If you’re a black man, that’s surprising because don’t you see that whites will ALSO choose other whites for the best jobs, the best health care, the best housing, and so on. That’s exactly why white racism is viewed as bad and needs to be eradicated. When you consider the HUGE power differential between blacks and whites, white “preference” for other whites is always going to be very bad news for blacks.”
I make a bit of a distinction between the public/the private and the intimate. As the US society we have made, or tried to make open discrimination in housing, jobs, justice illegal. I think that is a good thing. We have used the power of the state to prevent that, try to root that out and punish it when it happens. The attempts to do that are not as vigorous as they were before , which I think is mostly bad. And such attempts were met with quiet determined resistance at every step. And in many cases they just didn’t work at all.
But there is -to my mind anyway- a HUGE difference between the state or an employee/would be employee suing someone because they did not hire or promote Blacks and suing someone because they did not date/marry enough Blacks. If I want to go work for Scarlett Johansson and she tells me that she does not hire Blacks , I have a case. If on the other hand I want to date Scarlett Johansson (assuming for this argument she wasn’t married already LOL) and she tells me that she doesn’t date Blacks then that’s just too bad for me.
I have no recourse and just need to deal with it. She has the right to her preference. The state can not interfere with that.
If, as is the case, millions of white Americans feel the same way as that hypothetical actress, the media that they consume will reflect their views. I can sit there and complain and allow other people to control how I see myself or I can move on.
jorbia wrote:
“Even in black media, there tends to be a preference for lighter more European looking women, so that is not the solution, at least not from the standpoint of a lot of black American women, apparently . I’ve read many times where American black women have criticized black American men about their tendency to think that whiter women are more beautiful.”
See, here’s the thing. Whatever the preference is there will always be someone that’s left out. If dark skin were considered to be the best then lighter skinned women would be complaining. Would anyone (any woman anyways) pay too much attention to a middle class or low class man that was constantly complaining he couldn’t get the women he really wanted because he didn’t make enough money or was too short?
All that a person can do in life is make the best of the gifts that they do have and find someone who appreciates them. Being concerned about what millions of people think is silly. Folks only need to concern themselves with what their significant other thinks.
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Here is a song by India Arie. I love it!!!
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@ shady grady
i don’t know what your talking about because. this kinda of mindset goes a long way. its not only in america. you said america is prodominately white. china and india etc. have these same type of issues and these are people that are living in a prodominately asian enviroment. not only that they rate black women as the lowest on the scale . you said that white prefer white and black prefer black. well in this society alot of black do not prefer black.they also was taught to prefer white.
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Not to derail the discussion about “HBD” any further but why is it that the perpetrators are so obsessed with “liberals” and socio-political concepts? In all of their pamphlets I see at least one mention of “the liberals” or “the left”. If they claim scientific value, this whole controversy should be entirely and purely about natural science. There should be no rhetoric whatsoever about political concepts. If they have scientific proof beyond all doubts, peer-reviewed and confirmed they could care less about politics. Just bring on the data in all its details for review.
Back to the subject of why white women are considered more beautiful. If the socio-political supremacists claim to be scientists, they should be able to come up with a scientific explanation why so many white men in Europe, Africa and the Caribbean are attracted to black women. To the point that they actually get married and keep very long and healthy relationships.
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black women are devauled by society and it has hurt us in different types of way.that every race you could possible think of look down on us. what make this issue worst is that they have brainwash the blackmen to have these same views. the main point to this topic. the black women has been abandoned. robbed
women are here to mate with men and bring fourth their offspring . become one and try to survive . now do you get the point. the most serious problem. they have broken her home. then tell her she’s unfit. tell her she’s ugly, and tell men of all creed not to marry or mate with her.
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@ olefemi
as i said people who travel will understand. more white men very much find black women beautifull and at times its not about physical beauty. here in america the culture do glorify white beauty. africa the motherland have some of the most beautifull black women. maybe the reason they don’t market our beauty is because they don’t want it to go against them.
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@Olufemi
That is right! African women in other parts of the world are valued far more than here in the United States. I personally think that the U.S is an extremely racist country. And part of their scheme to hold on to their priviledge is to constantly say that black women are “ugly”. They realize that if blacks began to have a more positive attitude about themselves, they will be far more successful. A group of people can’t survive if they consciously or subconsciously hate themselves or hate their own women. It is all about divide and conquer. And what is sad about it is that many black men go right along with this plot. They could resist but for some reason( self hatred, selfishness,) they don’t. How can we as a people survive, if we don’t support one another? If our people don’t make it, we have no one but ourselves to blame. Period. Lets end self-destruction right now.
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@ Obsidian–
O: I don’t recall Black Men complaining to the degree that Black Womendo, writ large. There is no Black Male equivalents to Oprah, or Essence, Jill Scott or Bene Viera. Do you? If so, I’d sure like to hear about them. By all means, run out a list so we can address them as well!
Maybe you selectively listen to black women? Black women seem to annoy you, but you still seem to focus on them a lot. :-). It is normal for women to ease their stress by talking. ALL women do that.
You also mentioned “hypergamy.” That’s also normal for ALL women. That’s a “selected” trait for women.
It seems that many black men complain a lot about how whites keep them down or won’t let them do things or treat them unfairly or white pumping drugs into black communities and on and on. Whites definitely get tired of hearing that, but black men don’t stop complaining. 🙂 You complain a lot on your site about whites preventing black men from rising in the unions and in corporate america. If black men are not blaming things on whites, they seem to blame all the rest of their shortcomings on black women, as you’re doing in this thread. Do black men ever talk to each other and hold each other accountable for anything?
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@ Shady Grady–
I make a bit of a distinction between the public/the private and the intimate.
This may sound right, but the public and private are twins. If someone has a preference in private, they have that preference in public. No amount of laws will be able to prevent them from exercising their preference. They will find a way to not prefer you and they will find a way to justify it.
You proved my point by making this statement:
See, here’s the thing. Whatever the preference is there will always be someone that’s left out. If dark skin were considered to be the best then lighter skinned women would be complaining.
People of good morals need to work against these preferences. Whites make the exact same types of rationalizations when they want to discriminate against blacks. I’ve heard other whites say, “Well, somebody has to be poor . . .” in order to justify the structural racism that keeps blacks disproportionately poor. HBDers make the similar argument–that blacks are low on the totem pole because they have lower IQs. Both of these arguments attempt to justify a preference for Euro looks or Euro people.
Would anyone (any woman anyways) pay too much attention to a middle class or low class man that was constantly complaining he couldn’t get the women he really wanted because he didn’t make enough money or was too short?
But class and height are not nearly the STOPPERS that complexion or race is. Why stretch to compare them? Do you really think they are the same? This is like comnparing night and day. A short man or a middle class or even a lower income American man can fly to another country and in a matter of hours get the most beautiful woman there, whereas a darkblack person is darkblack everywhere. Black people even discriminate against other blacks even in America and in other black countries. In some black countries, the blacks treat whites much better than they do blacks.
My point is that preference based on how close a person is to beiing or looking white is at the root of so many problems throughout the world. When you travel, you notice this a lot.
I didn’t grow up in America. In my family, there are all complexions. When higher class people came to visit, my darker cousins with different hair were kept in the back room. I know that sounds incredible, but that happened. Because my complexion and hair are considered “pleasing” or “presentable,” I was allowed to meet the guests. But you seem to be saying that somebody has to be kept in the back room, so the darker people should just grin and bear it?
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@ medium & Jeri
Absolutely. People need to get out more and broaden their horizon first hand instead of just blindly believing what others write. Those “others” who clearly have an agenda.
Just another trivial anecdote but when was in the shop today there was an attractive blond woman (that Italian style blond, apparently fake maybe not, darker skin, dark eyes). Anyway, an amazingly beautiful black woman entered the shop and I could immediately sense men’s eyes (my own included ;)) veer off the blond woman towards the black woman. Guess what, most of the men were white.
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@ jeri
overall teach our children, family,etc to be proud to be black. don’t be afraid to speak up and realize that this is a problem. take action. like tyler perry did and BET that aired black girls rock. talk to the youths. the people on this site can make a difference. its time to set it straight. i’m not afraid. thats how our ancestors made a difference.
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@olumfemi
i’m telling you they don’t know its the structure. i have to be a little prejudice because i am a black women. have you seen the bone structure on some black women example angela bassett. from head to toe . i have never seen a white women that hold such structure. but i have seen black women that look just as angelic that they say white women are.
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@olumfemi
i’m telling you they don’t know its the structure. i have to be a little prejudice because i am a black women. have you seen the bone structure on some black women example angela bassett. from head to toe . i have never seen a white women that hold such structure. but i have seen black women that look just as angelic that they say white women are. wow
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@ jorbia
you go jorbia, shady grady is a master or he is still a slave
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@dumbmoch: 😀 you’re a funny guy!
“The best way to demonstrate HBD is to compare blacks and Asians. Blacks on average have smaller, lighter brains and -not coincidentally- significantly lower IQs than NE Asians. Every study that has looked at it, has come to the same conclusion. Blacks are also physically much more robust, with higher proportions of fast-twitch muscles. Thus they dominate athletic events that Asians could never dream of being competitive in, such as the 100M dash.” 😀
Suegetsu Shingo, bronze medal in Paris 2003 World Athletic Championships on 200 meters. Not bad for a asian who0 can not even dream to be competetive in these events. Naoki Tsukahara, 10,09 sec/100 meters. You can run faster, being a supreme white being yourself, eh?
HBD is total crap from the scientific point of view. Chinese view people very often by racial standards and guess what, you are far below a chinese in their eyes. That is right! In China you are just one stinkin pink devil, that is all. So I find it very funny that you are praising chinese racism as an example how wonderful this racist “science” is since you are, in their scale, really just a stinkin pink devil. Nothing more at all. 😀
As for the brain size. You do know that the neaderthals had bigger brains than you and your white supreme buddies, don’t you? Yeah, that is true. But hey, they must have been far superior than homo sapiens, even though they somehow dissappeared from the history. I mean, they had bigger brains than you or any of your heros. 😀
Then again, what this HBD bull has got to do with the fact that the media promotes race standards? Nothing of course, but you being such an supreme white being don’t seem to get even that 😀
This is truly hilarious!
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I don’t have much to add i just thought of something…
How come “Angelic” is usually only used to describe a white person? It’s so annoying, i’ve seen many Black women who look angelic (cherub face ,wide bright eyes, pouty lips and an overall ‘innocent look’), but they are never described as “Angelic”. And yes, i know cherub is a white baby angel, but i’ve seen Black women with that face shape who look very Angelic (pure, innocent, cute, whatever..)
Black women are usually described as “strong”, sexy, tough, fierce, hot etc..
Never soft, beautiful, pretty etc etc
I’ve seen many Black women who are very beautiful, but they are not seen as much in the media because the media prefers the Gabourey sidibes or the queen latifahs.
Hollywood loves to pump out the Sara jessia parkers of white women and uphold them as the most desired and beautiful.
I would love to see more of the Gabrielle Unions of Black women being represented in the media…
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@J:
I would love to look like Gabrielle Union. She’s gorgeous! Sarah Jessica Parker has a horse face.
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I do think that there are plenty of beautiful female black entertainers that don’t get nearly the attention as their white counterparts, but I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone call Sarah Jessica Parker hot. In fact, I feel bad for here getting the titles of most unsexiest woman in the world. I even found a website dedicated to how much she looks like a horse. I don’t think she is a stunning beauty, but she’s not that ugly. There’s plenty of other entertainers I find just as “blah”.
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@Medium
I agree with you wholly. We have to teach our children while they are young to love themselves. We must stop using terms like “bad hair” and tell our children that they are beautiful exactly how God made them. And you are right in that we cannot be afraid to speak up against those who spread lies about both African men and women. We are a beautiful and amazing group of people. We must continuously rebuke lies and those who support them.
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jorbia says,
@ Obsidian–
O: I don’t recall Black Men complaining to the degree that Black Womendo, writ large. There is no Black Male equivalents to Oprah, or Essence, Jill Scott or Bene Viera. Do you? If so, I’d sure like to hear about them. By all means, run out a list so we can address them as well!
-Maybe you selectively listen to black women? Black women seem to annoy you, but you still seem to focus on them a lot. . It is normal for women to ease their stress by talking. ALL women do that.
-You also mentioned “hypergamy.” That’s also normal for ALL women. That’s a “selected” trait for women.
-It seems that many black men complain a lot about how whites keep them down or won’t let them do things or treat them unfairly or white pumping drugs into black communities and on and on. Whites definitely get tired of hearing that, but black men don’t stop complaining. You complain a lot on your site about whites preventing black men from rising in the unions and in corporate america. If black men are not blaming things on whites, they seem to blame all the rest of their shortcomings on black women, as you’re doing in this thread. Do black men ever talk to each other and hold each other accountable for anything?
@ Shady Grady–
-I make a bit of a distinction between the public/the private and the intimate.
-This may sound right, but the public and private are twins. If someone has a preference in private, they have that preference in public. No amount of laws will be able to prevent them from exercising their preference. They will find a way to not prefer you and they will find a way to justify it.
-You proved my point by making this statement:
-See, here’s the thing. Whatever the preference is there will always be someone that’s left out. If dark skin were considered to be the best then lighter skinned women would be complaining.
-People of good morals need to work against these preferences. Whites make the exact same types of rationalizations when they want to discriminate against blacks. I’ve heard other whites say, “Well, somebody has to be poor . . .” in order to justify the structural racism that keeps blacks disproportionately poor. HBDers make the similar argument–that blacks are low on the totem pole because they have lower IQs. Both of these arguments attempt to justify a preference for Euro looks or Euro people.
-Would anyone (any woman anyways) pay too much attention to a middle class or low class man that was constantly complaining he couldn’t get the women he really wanted because he didn’t make enough money or was too short?
-But class and height are not nearly the STOPPERS that complexion or race is. Why stretch to compare them? Do you really think they are the same? This is like comnparing night and day. A short man or a middle class or even a lower income American man can fly to another country and in a matter of hours get the most beautiful woman there, whereas a darkblack person is darkblack everywhere. Black people even discriminate against other blacks even in America and in other black countries. In some black countries, the blacks treat whites much better than they do blacks.
-My point is that preference based on how close a person is to beiing or looking white is at the root of so many problems throughout the world.
laromana says,
jorbia, bravo to you for your EXCELLENT responses to the RACIST ANTI-BW DERAILERS.
It’s so TYPICAL for RACIST ANTI-BW BM to CARE LESS about ANTI-BW RACISM/the MISTREATMENT of BW in America because BM have been MAINSTREAMED and have NO PROBLEM establishing relationships with women of ANY RACE (since there’s NO LONGER a STIGMA AGAINST MOST women of ANY RACE to who choose to date/marry them).
On the other hand, MOST BW in America, are still NOT being treated like NORMAL, HUMAN WOMEN by MOST men of EVERY RACE.
These RACIST ANTI-BW BM who PUBLILCLY DEMEAN, DEGRADE and DISRESPECT BW are the MAIN reason the HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY of BW is not respected in America.
This is also why I strongly agree with you that ANTI-BW RACISM MUST BE CONFRONTED/CONDEMNED/DESTROYED whenever/whereever we see it practiced.
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Jeri says,
@Olufemi
That is right! African women in other parts of the world are valued far more than here in the United States. I personally think that the U.S is an extremely racist country. And part of their scheme to hold on to their priviledge is to constantly say that black women are “ugly”. They realize that if blacks began to have a more positive attitude about themselves, they will be far more successful. A group of people can’t survive if they consciously or subconsciously hate themselves or hate their own women. It is all about divide and conquer. And what is sad about it is that many black men go right along with this plot. They could resist but for some reason( self hatred, selfishness,) they don’t. How can we as a people survive, if we don’t support one another? If our people don’t make it, we have no one but ourselves to blame. Period. Lets end self-destruction right now.
laromana says,
EXCELLENT point, jeri.
RACIST ANTI-BW BM in America, are the only race of men who REFUSE to DEFEND the HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY of their SAME RACE women and, instead, GO OUT OF THEIR WAY to PUBLICLY DEGRADE, DEMEAN, and DISRESPECT BW.
These RACIST, ANTI-BW BM then have the AUDACITY to DICTATE to BW about HOW we SHOULD/SHOULDN’T FEEL about our MISTREATMENT (and WHAT we SHOULD/SHOULDN’T DO about it) when THEY are MAJOR CONTRIBUTORS to it.
They have SOME NERVE!
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Hi Jorbia,
Replies below,
@ Obsidian–
O: I don’t recall Black Men complaining to the degree that Black Womendo, writ large. There is no Black Male equivalents to Oprah, or Essence, Jill Scott or Bene Viera. Do you? If so, I’d sure like to hear about them. By all means, run out a list so we can address them as well!
J: Maybe you selectively listen to black women?
O: Nope, you didn’t hear me stutter; I maintain exactly what I’ve previously said.
J: Black women seem to annoy you, but you still seem to focus on them a lot. . It is normal for women to ease their stress by talking. ALL women do that.
O: There is a big difference between “talking” and “complaining” and its time someone told Black Women, to whom this sort of thing applies, to actually start putting those “strong, independent” characteristics they brag about so much to good use, and Man Up and Shut Up. Black Women have no real stress to be complaining about, and what stress is there, its usually of their own making. There, I’ve said it.
J: You also mentioned “hypergamy.” That’s also normal for ALL women. That’s a “selected” trait for women.
O: Sure it is, but the problem for Black Women is that they aren’t as able to have their need for this met as much as say, Ms. Ann does. That’s just too bad. Adults understand that they can’t get everything they want in life. Trust me, the vast majority of Black Men would love to have a Dime on their arm too, but they somehow come to the realization that there simply ain’t enough of them to go around. Rather than bitching and whining about the dearth of Dimes in the world to go around, they somehow get on with the busines of living life by making do with the rest of the Black Women that are available, call it a day and keep it moving. Black Women have been whining and bitching about not enough “eligible” Black Men to go around now for a generation at least, and one would think that if their complainiong would have made a difference and changed things for the better it would have done so by now. It hasn’t, so they might as well give it a rest. They need to take a page out of Condoleeza Rice’s book, a very successful Black Woman who you never hear whining, moaning and bitching about such things. She accepts her lot in life with grace and dignity. Black Women could learn from her example.
J: It seems that many black men complain a lot about how whites keep them down or won’t let them do things or treat them unfairly or white pumping drugs into black communities and on and on.
O: Again – please name me the Black Male equivalents of Oprah, Essence, Jill Scott, Terri McMillan, Bene Viera, etc, et al? You have yet to supply me or the rest of the forum with a list of such individuals. I’ll wait…
J: Whites definitely get tired of hearing that, but black men don’t stop complaining.
O: See above.
J: You complain a lot on your site about whites preventing black men from rising in the unions and in corporate america.
O: Yup – I also say that Brothas Gonna Work It Out – Alone, too. I’ve yet to hear that kind of talk from the Sistahood…
J: If black men are not blaming things on whites, they seem to blame all the rest of their shortcomings on black women, as you’re doing in this thread. Do black men ever talk to each other and hold each other accountable for anything?
O: I don’t know; we rarely ask Black Men for their opinion on anything, now do we? Wait, we can point to one instance where a Black Man went out of his way on a very busy time of his life to “hold Black Men accountable” – Barack Obama made it a point to upbraid Black Men on a whole on Father’s Day, 2008. And by all accounts, the majority of Black Men went on to vote for him. I’m glad I didn’t. So, there you go. Please notice that he has yet to give any such Mother’s Day address to hold Sistas accountable, and has appeared on Oprah, the covers of Essence and Ebony, etc et al. SMH
J: This may sound right, but the public and private are twins. If someone has a preference in private, they have that preference in public. No amount of laws will be able to prevent them from exercising their preference. They will find a way to not prefer you and they will find a way to justify it.
O: Yup. Such is life.
J: You proved my point by making this statement:
See, here’s the thing. Whatever the preference is there will always be someone that’s left out. If dark skin were considered to be the best then lighter skinned women would be complaining.
People of good morals need to work against these preferences. Whites make the exact same types of rationalizations when they want to discriminate against blacks. I’ve heard other whites say, “Well, somebody has to be poor . . .” in order to justify the structural racism that keeps blacks disproportionately poor. HBDers make the similar argument–that blacks are low on the totem pole because they have lower IQs. Both of these arguments attempt to justify a preference for Euro looks or Euro people.
O: So, how do you explain the success of Oprah or Rice, two darker skinned Black Women?
J: Would anyone (any woman anyways) pay too much attention to a middle class or low class man that was constantly complaining he couldn’t get the women he really wanted because he didn’t make enough money or was too short?
But class and height are not nearly the STOPPERS that complexion or race is.
O: YES THEY ARE. And we have all manner of documented evidence to prove it, you just don’t want to deal with it because again, it upsets the pity party for the Sistahood apple cart. But too bad, you don’t get a special monopoly on such things, joine the club and grow up.
J: Why stretch to compare them? Do you really think they are the same?
O: YES.
J: This is like comnparing night and day.
No, it’s not.
J: A short man or a middle class or even a lower income American man can fly to another country and in a matter of hours get the most beautiful woman there, whereas a darkblack person is darkblack everywhere. Black people even discriminate against other blacks even in America and in other black countries. In some black countries, the blacks treat whites much better than they do blacks.
O: There’s nothing stopping a Black Woman from flying to France and finding love there. Or many other points in Europe.
J: My point is that preference based on how close a person is to beiing or looking white is at the root of so many problems throughout the world. When you travel, you notice this a lot.
O: Evidentaly, you haven’t traveled enough yet…
J: I didn’t grow up in America. In my family, there are all complexions. When higher class people came to visit, my darker cousins with different hair were kept in the back room. I know that sounds incredible, but that happened. Because my complexion and hair are considered “pleasing” or “presentable,” I was allowed to meet the guests. But you seem to be saying that somebody has to be kept in the back room, so the darker people should just grin and bear it?
O: Not at all. They should leave deeply dysfunctional families like yours and surround themselves with people who appreciate them for who they are. The. End.
🙂
O.
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Medium wrote
@ shady grady
“i don’t know what your talking about because. this kinda of mindset goes a long way. its not only in america. you said america is prodominately white. china and india etc. have these same type of issues and these are people that are living in a prodominately asian enviroment. not only that they rate black women as the lowest on the scale . you said that white prefer white and black prefer black. well in this society alot of black do not prefer black.they also was taught to prefer white.”
Again, the overwhelming majority of black men who marry, marry black women. The overwhelming majority of black men who date, date black women. The overwhelming majority of black men who have children, have children with black women. I don’t know what stronger indication of revealed preferences exist than that. Nobody marries, dates, lives with, or has children with black women MORE than black men.
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Jorbia wrote
This may sound right, but the public and private are twins. If someone has a preference in private, they have that preference in public. No amount of laws will be able to prevent them from exercising their preference. They will find a way to not prefer you and they will find a way to justify it.
(shrugs) The state is not allowed to interfere with PRIVATE intimate decisions such as who we find attractive, or with whom we decide to date, marry or have children. I’m okay with that. Do you want the state to start interfering with those decisions? Yes or no.
People of good morals need to work against these preferences. Whites make the exact same types of rationalizations when they want to discriminate against blacks. I’ve heard other whites say, “Well, somebody has to be poor . . .” in order to justify the structural racism that keeps blacks disproportionately poor. HBDers make the similar argument–that blacks are low on the totem pole because they have lower IQs. Both of these arguments attempt to justify a preference for Euro looks or Euro people.
It is completely par for the course that white people tend to have a romantic/aesthetic/sexual preference for white people. Do you think that white people should have a preference for black people? How exactly would that have come about? Black people still have a preference for black people. Why would you expect whites to be any different? Why is it not enough for you that black people tend to prefer other black people? Are black people racist for having preferences for other black people?
But class and height are not nearly the STOPPERS that complexion or race is. Why stretch to compare them? Do you really think they are the same? This is like comnparing night and day. A short man or a middle class or even a lower income American man can fly to another country and in a matter of hours get the most beautiful woman there, whereas a darkblack person is darkblack everywhere. Black people even discriminate against other blacks even in America and in other black countries. In some black countries, the blacks treat whites much better than they do blacks.
No analogy is perfect but it’s not as much of stretch as you seem to think. Virtually universally in humanity, women prefer men who are taller than they are and/or make more money/have more wealth than they do. Women make no apologies for their preferences in this regard nor would I expect them to do so.
Height of course is not at all something under an individual’s control and to a MUCH lesser extent ambition and success are also correlated with things that aren’t just up to an individual. But short men or men that make less money than some woman thinks they should don’t sit around complaining-when they do they are usually mocked by both men and women. LOL.
Their solution is to work on other aspects of their attractiveness they have control over and find a woman that accepts them Life is far too short to be complaining that you can’t get some person you think you ought to have when there are millions more that would be happy to have you just as you are. If you can’t get the one you love, love the one you’re with…
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Medium wrote
@olumfemi
i’m telling you they don’t know its the structure. i have to be a little prejudice because i am a black women. have you seen the bone structure on some black women example angela bassett. from head to toe . i have never seen a white women that hold such structure. but i have seen black women that look just as angelic that they say white women are. Wow
LOL. So it’s okay for YOU to have an aesthetic preference for people that look like you do but if white people do the same, THAT’S racism????
If a white person said “You know I have never seen a black woman with the bone structure and beauty of Heidi Klum or Rachel Nichols. Black women just don’t look like that” would that be preference or racism? Hmmmmmmmmmm…
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laromana says,
jorbia, bravo to you for your EXCELLENT responses to the RACIST ANTI-BW DERAILERS.
It’s so TYPICAL for RACIST ANTI-BW BM to CARE LESS about ANTI-BW RACISM/the MISTREATMENT of BW in America because BM have been MAINSTREAMED and have NO PROBLEM establishing relationships with women of ANY RACE (since there’s NO LONGER a STIGMA AGAINST MOST women of ANY RACE to who choose to date/marry them).
On the other hand, MOST BW in America, are still NOT being treated like NORMAL, HUMAN WOMEN by MOST men of EVERY RACE.
These RACIST ANTI-BW BM who PUBLILCLY DEMEAN, DEGRADE and DISRESPECT BW are the MAIN reason the HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY of BW is not respected in America.
Right. Because someone doesn’t agree with you they are of course by definition racist. O-kay.
And it’s Black men’s fault that that White men aren’t dating or marrying Black women in the numbers you’d like to see. Got it!
And Black men have been mainstreamed in America and are enthusiastically welcomed by all when they attempt to date/marry interracially. And those non-Black women on dating sites who list every man under the sun as acceptable BUT black men, they’re just playing hard to get. They really secretly like Black men. I never knew.
And since there’s no longer a stigma against Black men marrying or dating women of any race, I guess we can presume that when the police stop a black man with a white woman in his car they are just coming to congratulate them both for bravely upholding diversity. I learn so much from you!!!!
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It is singularly unsurprising that media in a majority white country reflects white aesthetic values. I don’t deny that this can be a problem if you are not white. But there is no way consistent with our legal and constitutional system to change it.
The only solution is to create, support and consume media that is directed at you. In large part that is why black media was created in the first place.
There is no other alternative. White media is never ever ever going to consistently depict black standards of beauty. At most they will show a few tokens or outliers and/or black women that fit more closely to a white aesthetic.
Again, the question is why are some people consuming media that is not made for them and then complaining about the taste. While I have complained about lack of black representation in some white media I found it much more productive and helpful to switch to media that was aimed at me.
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@Shady Grady–
Again, the overwhelming majority of black men who marry, marry black women. The overwhelming majority of black men who date, date black women. The overwhelming majority of black men who have children, have children with black women. I don’t know what stronger indication of revealed preferences exist than that. Nobody marries, dates, lives with, or has children with black women MORE than black men
It seems that black american men want a standing ovation for marrying black women. I mean that’s the way it sounds–as if you guys are doing black women a tremendous favor when you do marry them. 🙂 Did you mention anywhere what percentage of black american men marry?
The state is not allowed to interfere with PRIVATE intimate decisions such as who we find attractive, or with whom we decide to date, marry or have children. I’m okay with that. Do you want the state to start interfering with those decisions? Yes or no.
The “state” is involved in EVERY aspect of life in most countries and definitely in the U.S. EVERYTHING is tracked and regulated in the U.S. The state even determines where you’re born and where you will be buried in MOST cases. The state shapes, manipulates, and regulates each one of us. Don’t believe that your decisions are solely yours. If I knew enough about you, I could trace the fine hand of the state manipulating or guiding you in practically every single decision you’ve ever made. So of course your intimate partners are not a private decision. The state is there in the bedroom with you.:-)
The masses of blacks, whites, and others have been duped into thinking that their choice of intimate partner, along with many other decisions, is their “private” decision. 🙂 Not true. This is a socially state-engineered decision in MOST cases. Some of us are very aware of this and some have pointed this out in this thread. So, maybe you’ve decided to go along with the state, but at least be aware that you’re not making a “private” decision.
Socially aware people with morals and principles don’t uphold a complexion hierarchy that has destroyed millions of people because complexion has nothing to do with the substance of a man or woman. Isn’t that what your civil rights movement was all about? If you are a black man, why would you support a complexion hierarchy?
Bringing short men into this discussion trivializes this situation because this state-sponsored complexion hierarchy has KILLED millions of people or denied them access to “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.” I’ve never heard of the state doing this to short men.
And for every white woman you could find with Heidi Klum’s bone structure, I’ll bet a black woman with that same bone structure could be easily found because when you consider all of the mixing that has occurred, especially in the U.S., race is a total social construct. I hope you’re aware that many whites in the U.S. have more than a few drops of black blood. Heck, in the U.S., I’m usually viewed as white in some places, and there are a lot of drops of black blood in my family.
So, that desire for Klum’s bone structure is just a shield 🙂 for those who “prefer” to further support the complexion hierarchy. When whites desire to propagate themselves, there is nothing wrong with that . I actually have more respect for non-violent Stormfront folks than I do for black and white folks who support the complexion hierarchy while hiding behind “sheets.”
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Jorbia,
Now you’re just souinding downright delusional. Nobody’s suggesting Black Men be awarded medals for being the mates of Black Women(!); SG, I and others were just pointing out the fact that Black Women were hardly going through life alone as a generation of spinsters, LOL. If a Black Woman wants a mate, she can get one, end of. But NO, her chances of landing a Prince Charming type guy, is gonna be slimmer than other groups of Men. Such is life, buit then again, like I said earlier, you don’t hear Black Men complaining about the dearth of verifab;e Dimes out there either. So it is, what it is. And Black Men somehow lower their expectations and get with the many Blacl Women who aren’t Halle Berry or Beyonce or Buff the Body and get on with it. Black Women just have to grow up and do the same thing.
And you seriously contradicgted yourself when you said on the one hand that the State is all powerful and intrusive, yet somehow shorter Men are exempted from this. Again, there are documented studies showing how shorter Men are discriminated against on the job and off, in school and out, yet you can’t deal with that because again, it upsets the apple cart of Black Women as special vicrtim status. I and others like me, like Shady Grady and others, will continue to call BS on that and will keep bringong up iuncomfortable facts auntil Sistas learn to grow up, shuut up, and get on with the business of living their lives like the rest of us adults do.
Oh, and btw, you’re welcome for the service. 😉
Holla back
O.
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@ Jorbia
Get down with your bad self!!!
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As Abagond himself pointed out the adage, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. There are beautiful people of all races, both men and women included.
But yes, the euro-centric viewpoint of beauty bores me to death….they want us to believe that there are a few predetermined set of criteria to be called beautiful….
For example, some people may find Sandra Bullock pretty, so also Julia Roberts, Nicole Kidman, Kate Winslet, Sophia Loren, Audrey Hepburn (yikes to me) etc….you must have guessed my opinions on them by now…
Tom Cruise is truly handsome, but so is Denzel Washington and by virtue of his personality, must be far more attractive altogether than Tom to many females (or males)…..
It just “depends”….but beauty is a commodity, just like FMCG’s and hence there has to be a good marketing of it, and because of the “wealth tag” that the western world has on it, the concept of beauty as is sold in the market is also fixated likewise….
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@KM: hey, kate winslet was good looking in Titanic! Well, she was nude there, granted, but I like that! 😀
Seriously, I think white women are no more beautiful than black women, or any other for that matter. I believe this is changing. It is up to us all that we open up and accept that beauty is subjective. I like women that somebody else doesn’t. It is ok. What is not ok is that the media keeps up this White is right dope. And we can, as the society, say to media houses: “hey, what about this girl or that woman? You say she’s not good because of her color, hips, hair?? WTF? Are you racists?” 😀
Today that scares most media houses. Just tell them. Hey, there are women all shapes sizes and colors. Put them out there. Into the movies, magazines, papers, tv-shows etc. Pronto!
Thank god there are no two similar women in this planet! I love them all 😀
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“The state shapes, manipulates, and regulates each one of us. Don’t believe that your decisions are solely yours.”
“The masses of blacks, whites, and others have been duped
into thinking that their choice of intimate partner, along with many other decisions, is their “private” decision. Not true. This is a socially state-engineered decision in MOST cases. Some of us are very aware of this and some have pointed this out in this thread.”
“So of course your intimate partners are not a private decision. The state is there in the bedroom with you.:-) ”
Utter and complete balderdash. I expected better.
Again, you skipped the question, perhaps because it reveals more about your ideas about the proper limits of state power than you are comfortable stating openly. I’ll repeat… Do you want the state to start interfering with those decisions? Yes or no???
How would that work? Would it be like a Title IX for relationships or marriage?
Joe Blow, a white man has decided to marry Suzie Cupcake, a white woman. Unfortunately for Joe Blow
the local state complexion commission has decided that the quota of white/white marriages has already been reached in their area. Mr. Blow may marry Tamika Thomas, a Black woman or no one at all. Miss Cupcake on the other hand can’t be married at all, because not enough black women got married in the past quarter.
Or Kevin Jenkins, a black man has decided to marry Keisha Williams, a black woman. Unfortunately for them, Keisha Williams had a white great-grandparent and is a bit too light-complected for the self-esteem of some of the local complexion commission members. Mr. Jenkins is therefore NOT allowed to marry Miss Williams. He may marry another black woman to be determined later, provided her skin tone is no lighter than that of Wesley Snipes. Miss Williams, on the other hand is to be given a free marriage pick from any available white bachelor.
Ridiculous….
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jorbia you again miss my point. I make no claim of the relative beauty of Klum or Basset. I think they are equally attractive.
The point is this:
If if is okay for a self-described black female commenter to marvel at Basset’s beauty and even go so far as to say they’ve never seen such bone structure on a white woman, if it is okay for another commenter to claim that Loren’s beauty must have come from African ancestry and that she has a body like a black woman, then it OBVIOUSLY must be okay for whites to have preferences as well. These preferences will usually be white women OR black women that “look like” white women.
Everybody likes their own group best. We see that in the comments. There is nothing wrong with that. Nothing is going to change that.
Therefore one can either get in where they fit in OR they can continue to chase validation from the other group. The second path is a bit more fraught with insult and dislike but I guess it’s worth it for some. Whatever floats your boat. You are guaranteed the pursuit of happiness, not happiness itself. Perhaps the black women that are so bothered by this would do well to go talk to white men to see why white men are picking white women or Asian women over them if they are not satisfied with being picked first by black men.
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@Shady Grady–
Again, you skipped the question, perhaps because it reveals more about your ideas about the proper limits of state power than you are comfortable stating openly. I’ll repeat… Do you want the state to start interfering with those decisions? Yes or no???
I thought it was clear from my comment that no, I don’t want the state to control ANY of my choices in ANY area of life, (stamping my foot here!) but I realize that it DOES influence the choices of all of us by shaping, manipulating, regulating us to like certain things and not like others. You seemed to be saying that YOUR intimate partners are a “private” decision, decided on by you, ALONE. I was just pointing out that that doesn’t occur.
This topic of Agabond’s is actually saying exactly what I’m saying. Most commenters have agreed that white women are considered more beautiful BECAUSE the state has shaped and manipulated people into believing this. This favors whites because it means that white women will have a lot more opportunities and access than black women. Yet you and Obsidian are advising black women to just be quiet, “suck it up” and get on with life instead of supporting black women in saying this is state-sponsored racism. You guys seem to be SINGULARLY focused on telling black women not to expect white men to validate their beauty? My focus is elsewhere.
State manipulation of the complexion hierarchy has almost always worked against black people across the board. Sorry to have burst anyone’s bubble, but I was surprised to find ANY blacks arguing that it’s best to just be quiet, suck it up and get on with life. Silence is a form of consent.
Everybody likes their own group best.
But is this actually true when it comes to american blacks and even with other groups of blacks? Many blacks have a marked preference for whites and all things Euro or more Euro-looking, even though they may say they prefer their own.
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I’m going to step out of this at this point because I have some papers I must finish. 🙂 However, I’m in full support of any black, white, or other person who sees the dire need to tear away this insidious complexion hierarchy. In my life, I’ve been fortunate enough to meet people of all complexions and races who work to do this.
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@ shady grady
i was the one that said i have never seen certain type of bone structure on a white woman.but i have seen black women that look so called angelic like they said white woman is. and have the same body structure. now be honest with your self and tell me if you have ever seen a white women with the structure of serena williams? i know what i’m talking about maybe your blind but black women is the only woman on earth that carry this structure. only hispanics comes close to it . jennifer lopez is very close to it. look at her face and look on her booty but i’ve seen firmer than that. this is what we call the strong body where i come from. this don’t have nothing to do with preference. for i for one don’t have that body. ok just showing off the diversity of our beauty. why do you think body builders tan. because their structure, bone mass and density shows up more. even if they go to the gym 50 times a day it still wouldn’t look the same.
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@ shady grady
“The state shapes, manipulates, and regulates each one of us. Don’t believe that your decisions are solely yours.”
shady grady
you said this
the state have shape you and your decisions is not soley yours
your a hypocrite because almost everyone here on this blog is going against the state. and don’t want to be manipulated no more. anyone with a brain is capable of doing this. so you must be working for the states.
.
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jorbia says,
@Shady Grady–
-Again, the overwhelming majority of black men who marry, marry black women. The overwhelming majority of black men who date, date black women. The overwhelming majority of black men who have children, have children with black women. I don’t know what stronger indication of revealed preferences exist than that. Nobody marries, dates, lives with, or has children with black women MORE than black men
-It seems that black american men want a standing ovation for marrying black women. I mean that’s the way it sounds–as if you guys are doing black women a tremendous favor when you do marry them. Did you mention anywhere what percentage of black american men marry?
-The state is not allowed to interfere with PRIVATE intimate decisions such as who we find attractive, or with whom we decide to date, marry or have children. I’m okay with that. Do you want the state to start interfering with those decisions? Yes or no.
-The “state” is involved in EVERY aspect of life in most countries and definitely in the U.S. EVERYTHING is tracked and regulated in the U.S. The state even determines where you’re born and where you will be buried in MOST cases. The state shapes, manipulates, and regulates each one of us. Don’t believe that your decisions are solely yours. If I knew enough about you, I could trace the fine hand of the state manipulating or guiding you in practically every single decision you’ve ever made. So of course your intimate partners are not a private decision. The state is there in the bedroom with you.:-)
-The masses of blacks, whites, and others have been duped into thinking that their choice of intimate partner, along with many other decisions, is their “private” decision. Not true. This is a socially state-engineered decision in MOST cases. Some of us are very aware of this and some have pointed this out in this thread. So, maybe you’ve decided to go along with the state, but at least be aware that you’re not making a “private” decision.
-Socially aware people with morals and principles don’t uphold a complexion hierarchy that has destroyed millions of people because complexion has nothing to do with the substance of a man or woman. Isn’t that what your civil rights movement was all about? If you are a black man, why would you support a complexion hierarchy?
-Bringing short men into this discussion trivializes this situation because this state-sponsored complexion hierarchy has KILLED millions of people or denied them access to “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.” I’ve never heard of the state doing this to short men.
-And for every white woman you could find with Heidi Klum’s bone structure, I’ll bet a black woman with that same bone structure could be easily found because when you consider all of the mixing that has occurred, especially in the U.S., race is a total social construct. I hope you’re aware that many whites in the U.S. have more than a few drops of black blood. Heck, in the U.S., I’m usually viewed as white in some places, and there are a lot of drops of black blood in my family.
-So, that desire for Klum’s bone structure is just a shield for those who “prefer” to further support the complexion hierarchy. When whites desire to propagate themselves, there is nothing wrong with that . I actually have more respect for non-violent Stormfront folks than I do for black and white folks who support the complexion hierarchy while hiding behind “sheets.”
jorbia,
Again, you’ve delivered an EXCELLENT response to the ANTI-BW DERAILERS who continue trying to MISREPRESENT comments posted by BW/PRO-BW SUPPORTERS on this post.
The FACT is that, in America, BW are/have HISTORICALLY been told that features that are COMMON to BW are UGLY on them but BEAUTIFUL on NON-BW.
Also, American men of ALL RACES have been told that BW are “NOT GOOD ENOUGH to DATE/MARRY BECAUSE THEY ARE BW” PERIOD.
Of course these are CLEAR examples of ANTI-BW RACISM and these practices CONTINUE to affect the way BW are viewed/treated in America to this day.
No matter how hard the DERAILERS try to TWIST the TRUTH, they can’t HONESTLY DENY the REALITY of the MISTREATMENT of BW.
The only way to CHANGE ANTI-BW RACIST ATTITUDES/ACTIONS is to CONFRONT/CONDEMN/ and DESTROY ANTI-BW RACISM WHENEVER/WHEREVER it is PRACTICED.
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Kwamla says,
Such is the nature of racism and its effects. Just ignoring it doesn’t make it go away. Particular in the minds or PERCEPTIONS of people as PEANUT has already pointed out. Taking on board both of those statements in the minds of Black people – unchallenged. Can lead to all sorts of peculiar internalized perceptions of what is and what is not perceived as beautiful.
laromana says,
Kwamla, this is such an EXCELLENT point.
Thanks for confronting the DERAILERS and challenging their WARPED thinking regarding WHY it’s NECESSARY that ANTI-BW RACISM be ACKNOWLEDGED/CONDEMNED/DESTROYED.
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@Shady Grady
I can’t believe I am saying this, but I agree with half of what are saying!!! I am not overly interested in white men preferring or not preferring me. I could care less. I think some white men are attractive and everything, but I am not interested in being with someone who is not interested in me! I am not going to beg or plead for someone to love me. You either like me or you don’t. Personally, I love myself. I am intelligent, compassionate, and supportive. I am a catch and I know it. My husband knows it too. I don’t need anyone’s permission to love myself. If you like it, fine. If you don’t, whatever. You said black women should concentrate on those who love and appreciate them. I agree. Black men are way more supportive of black women than other men, according to you. I agree with you on that. I said this earlier and alot of women wanted to blow my head off. I gave up.
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@Shady
I think black women should only be with those who have a mind of their own. All this nonsense about black women having high testerone level, being too masculine, etc is just too much. Why in the world would want to be with someone who has such a low opinion of you!!! Marriage is no joke. Trust me. I know. I have been married 6 years!! Believe me when I say this. You don’t want to be with a jerk for the rest of your life!!!! You spend everyday with this person. It is important that you spend time with someone who is not brainwashed by the larger society. He must accept, trust and love you. Period. If you feel that the relationship is shaky from the beginning, then it will probably only get worse. So black women have to be very selective. Choose men who respect and love you. Most of them may be black, a few maybe white, but selective them based on how they treat you!
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@Shady
I want to say more but I am too exhausted right now. I will discuss later what I don’t agree with you about. Especially when it comes to the media. I definitely disagree with some of your comments on that subject!! I will continue with this subject later.
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Jorbia wrote
You guys seem to be SINGULARLY focused on telling black women not to expect white men to validate their beauty? My focus is elsewhere.
Uh no. I guess you didn’t read my personal example of the general futility of trying to tell (white) music magazines that they needed to have more black musicians on their cover. Or the hypothetical example about Scarlett Johannson.
Let me state it again. Black men *generally* are not having a public snit about the fact that by and large white women prefer white men over them. Those black men who DO do that are usually mocked and told to get a life by both black men and black women. If Black men were doing that I would find it just as silly.
I think that everyone should be with those they find attractive and who find them attractive. I also think people should recognize where their chances for success are highest.
If I wrote comment after comment bemoaning the fact that most white women wouldn’t give a black man the time of day and that somehow this was “state sponsored racism” I rather expect that some of the people here would find it laughable. I find such comparisons lacking because they trivialize the real racism that my parents/grandparents/ancestors went through.
Being forced to sit at the back of the bus? Racism.
Not being hired or promoted? Racism.
Not being able to vote? Racism.
Being harassed, beaten or killed because you were in the wrong neighborhood? Racism.
Being forced to take your hat off in the presence of a white man or step off the sidewalk when a white woman walks by? Racism.
Not being able to try on a dress in a store and having to wait until all the other white customers were served? Racism.
Being murdered because some white man said you were uppity or some white woman said you looked at her the wrong way? Racism.
Being called Auntie/Uncle by white people who you had to call Mr./Mrs./Miss? Racism.
In 2010, being declined for a date by a white person? Preference.
To my point , with which you should agree, in the last example there is NOTHING the state can do to change that. There is no law, no Title IX like regulation, no tort available to rectify that. That’s what I saying and what I think Obsidian is saying as well.
So some black people can continue to complain about that sort of thing to no avail (trying to guilt trip people into finding you attractive doesn’t work) OR they can be with those people (black or white or mixed or East Asian or South Asian or Hispanic or whatever) that do find them attractive. Either way, life is short.
You have power over your life and your preferences.
You do not have power over the lives and preferences of millions of other people.
Which one do you think you’re more likely to change?
Jorbia wrote
But is this actually true when it comes to american blacks and even with other groups of blacks? Many blacks have a marked preference for whites and all things Euro or more Euro-looking, even though they may say they prefer their own.
And still in America most black people wind up dating, marrying, living with or reproducing with other black people. That’s a pretty strong indication of preference. If that’s not good enough for you, nothing will be.
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medium wrote
@ shady grady
“The state shapes, manipulates, and regulates each one of us. Don’t believe that your decisions are solely yours.”
shady grady
you said this
the state have shape you and your decisions is not soley yours
your a hypocrite because almost everyone here on this blog is going against the state. and don’t want to be manipulated no more. anyone with a brain is capable of doing this. so you must be working for the states.
Uhh, medium you appear to be misattributing quotes to me. No biggie, easy mistake to make. I did not write this
The state shapes, manipulates, and regulates each one of us. Don’t believe that your decisions are solely yours.
Jorbia wrote it. As should be clear from subsequent comments I disagree with that statement profoundly.
I don’t believe that the state has any control over who I find attractive. Obsidian and I have completely different ideas about what sort of women are attractive. If the state caused that, how did it manage to create such starkly opposing results?
If you believe that the state does have control over who people find attractive then it is incumbent upon you to explain exactly how you want the state to intervene in people’s lives to rectify this wrong. Good luck with that.
The paranoia and inability to even understand that people have different POV on things is unfortunate.
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@shady
So whats all this I hear about young black girls feeling ugly and worthless because of their not white enough features like kinky hair, fuller lips, and wider noses?
It seems like this “preference” by the white majority has been doing quite a number on the self esteem of black females.
Many of your examples of racism could be classified as things that make a person feel like a second class citizen or as if they are worth less than whites. Don’t caucasian skewed beauty standards have the same effect?
I don’t think personal preferences are the main issue, and I believe they can be shaped in part by societies preferences.
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Jeri wrote
Choose men who respect and love you. Most of them may be black, a few maybe white, but selective them based on how they treat you!
Yes. That’s it exactly!!!!! That is good advice for everyone. Life is very short.
Jeri wrote
I want to say more but I am too exhausted right now. I will discuss later what I don’t agree with you about. Especially when it comes to the media. I definitely disagree with some of your comments on that subject!! I will continue with this subject later.
Cool. Points of disagreement can be places where we all learn. I will check for your comments later.
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@jas0nburns
My examples all had had the use of force behind them and they were all in the public sphere. If a black man or black woman didn’t go along they ran an excellent chance of being harmed by agents of the state or by white citizens who knew agents of the state would look the other way or assist.
That is entirely different than the private sphere and where there is no force or threat of force involved. Each citizen gets to decide for themselves who they are going to sleep with or marry and who they find attractive. The state can’t force people to find a certain look attractive.
To the extent that black people find media depictions lacking, insulting or just missing completely the choices are to stop buying such media, build their own media or keep hanging around complaining. In the third option, every now and again someone will get lucky and break through but it will generally be a black woman that matches a white aesthetic in some key way. Even there it will always be a small number.
Sports Illustrated and Marie Claire and Cosmo and Playboy and Maxim and GQ and Loaded and etc… will have their black woman on a cover or feature once every so often but that’s really not what their primary market considers most attractive.
So I don’t think that Black women ought to waste their time looking for validation in media that’s not aimed at them. If they do so then of course they run a risk of thinking they’re not up to par, which isn’t true.
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@ shady
“all had had the use of force behind them and they were all in the public sphere.”
So basically something has to meet that criteria in order for you to consider it racism.
I would disagree. For example I consider white flight to the suburbs racism yet it doesn’t meet those criteria.
I think that the abandonment of urban centers by whites was driven by racism and has taken a huge toll on America in general.
http://www.helium.com/items/359978-white-flights-negative-impact-on-the-education-of-african-americans
So basically in the 1950’s just as blacks were starting to make substantial gains in American society white people decided to get the f**k out of dodge and take all their tax money with them.
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Generally it has to meet that criteria for me to think that the state should be able to intervene.
Personal decisions on who to sleep with or marry or live next door to are not things that the state can do anything about in general. Such decisions are personal and private.
The state can say public schools can’t discriminate, but it can’t stop whites from sending their kids to private schools. It can state that a corporation has to hire black people but it can’t make the white (or increasingly Asian) managers at that corporation give black people the inside unwritten rules that are in effect, act as mentors, invite black people to their non-work social gatherings or do any of the other small yet key actions which help people rise on the corporate ladder. The state can invalidate racial covenants in housing but it can’t prevent whites from generally moving away once the black presence in a neighborhood moves above a certain tipping point.
All those things are beyond our ability to control. And on some things I look sideways at people who WOULD like to control.
So the question is what to do next. I don’t pretend to have all the answers and wish some things were different. But they aren’t. This is the world we live in and need to thrive and succeed regardless of who doesn’t want to marry us or live next door to us. I just know that uncritically consuming media that’s not meant for you is just not helpful.
If a white woman (say Gwynneth Paltrow) with very strong stereotypical Anglo-Saxon/Anglo-Celtic features and what many American blacks would think of as a too skinny frame spent most of her time reading Essence, Ebony, Jet, King, Smooth, Vibe, etc or watching movies in which none of the leading ladies looked like her I can definitely see how that might cause some internal anomie. I would tell such a woman the same thing I tell anyone else-change the media that you’re consuming…
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@ Shady
When did state intervention become the focal point? I must have missed something in the discussion, certainly it isn’t central to the OP. If we’re just going to talk about state sanctioned racism Abagond might as well retire this blog cause racism is over and what ever racism is left we should just ignore it.
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@ Shady Grady–
In 2010, being declined for a date by a white person? Preference.
To my point , with which you should agree, in the last example there is NOTHING the state can do to change that. There is no law, no Title IX like regulation, no tort available to rectify that. That’s what I saying and what I think Obsidian is saying as well.
I don’t know why you and Obsidian can’t seem to speak for your individual selves. I’ve noticed how you and he often include each other in your response. Do you feel you need for back-up or something when responding to me? 🙂
Anyway, a black woman not getting a date with a white man seems to be your SINGULAR focus because you constantly bring that up. This topic is a BROAD topic. Why do you keep reducing it to either short men, red-headed men, and black women getting dates with white men?
I’m not in a “snit” about anything. I’m expressing my views about the insidiousness of the complexion hierarchy.
I thought this topic was a broad topic that was speaking to this phenomenon of elevating of Caucasian female looks over black female negroid looks and the flagrant RACISM in that. My position is that the current complexion hierarchy is very harmful to these black females in personal and other ways because it prevents them from having many opportunities that similar white women get. All people of good principles and morals should work against this because it is RACISM.
For example, when a black woman doesn’t get a job in the public arena because her lips and behind are considered “too big, raunchy or NEGROID looking” yet Angelina Jolie and Jennifer Lopez’s lips and butt respectively are raved about as being the epitome of female beauty, this is racism, NOT preference. There are many black women who are naturally built like Sophia Loren and with lips and cheekbones just like hers, but they get the silent treatment. These SAME lips and behind on a white woman are view as a positive, yet on a black female, these are seen as negative. How can anyone defend this and call it anything other than racism?
I know that many whites who are reading this know, just like I know that there are often high profile jobs that black women do not get simply because their NEGROID features or natural hair are not the look that white employers want to put out front. These black women cannot sue because no white employer is dumb enough to tell a black woman that “we can’t hire you for that high-profile position because some of our staff or clients will be offended or frightened by your natural hair” or don’t want to look at the width of your nose or dark chocolate skin.
This is a form of theft. The tax dollars of those black women and their families are used by the state to subsidize these corporations, the media and others who use this complexion hierarchy to discriminate against those black women for having NEGROID features and hair. This is state-sponsored racism.
So why would you advise black women to be quiet about this or even try to suck it up? Instead, you black men should be out front making as much noise as you can about this complexion hierarchy. Now, I’m YOUR consultant. 🙂
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All I have to say is Peanut…..those are some really nice photos you posted. Except for the red headed white boys tho. I don’t care what society say. And they got it all twisted. White women aint got NOTHING on a sista that look like the ones Peanut posted. Black women’s bodies are a lot stronger looking then white women’s. And that aint a bad thing. Just ask The Kardashian sisters (kim & Khloe), Jennifer lopez, and some more I can’t think of at the moment.
And I do agree. There are beautiful women in all races and there are some ugly women in all races. But I prefer mine just like my coffee, sweet, very hott, and BLACK. No cream.
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@Jorbia
You made an excellent point!!!Shady keeps bringing this whole “black women are upset about white men not wanting them” topic. I thought this topic was about much more than that. He is assuming that black women are all having a fit because some white men don’t want them but that is not the point of the topic. Like you mentioned earlier, white people clearly admire black women’s bronze color, lips and body shape but will only admit to this preference when it involves someone who is not black!!! Like Jeniffer Lopez or Sophia Loren. Excellent point!!!! When I saw that picture of Sophia Loren that Abagond posted, the first thought that I had was that many black women have a similar shape!!! Like you mentioned earlier, to withhold your praise for the same characteristics in an actual black woman, is racism!!!
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@Shady Grady
What I wanted to say is that I do expect the media to cater to the interest of black women just like they cater to the interest of white women. I mean, why not? If you say you are not racist, then what is wrong with putting very beautiful African ( not just those who are mixed) women on television and portraying them in a non-stereotypical fashion!! The media seems to only want to cater to the interest of whites and that is racism!! When the media does this, it causes alot of problems for African American women. People automatically assume that all black women carry themselves the way the media portrays them or that all black women look like those on television. It is very common to see very attractive light skinned black women on tv but not very attractive darker skinned black women. If you see a darker skinned woman on TV, she is either overweight or ghetto acting.
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@Shady Grady
There are millions of beautiful darker skinned black women all over the world. Some are in Africa, Europe, South America, the Carribean etc. Many are intelligent, educated, and very feminine. But do you see these type of women on TV. No you don’t!!! And it is not because they don’t exist. There are thousands of beautiful darker skinned black women who are trying to make a breakthrough in acting or modeling. But they can’t catch a break because those who control the media are determined to reject them in their RACIST attempt to portray black women in a negative way only. If these women are not ghetto acting or not overweight, whites don’t want to see them!!! Now are you saying that is not racism!!!! To refuse to employ all these beautiful and talented women!!! I personally think that black people should boycott certain movies and TV programs until those who control the media changes their focus!!
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@Shady Grady
You said that there is little one can do about some forms of racism because, according to you, some forms can not be controlled by the state or government but I think boycotting or refusing to spend your money on certain projects is enough in itself. When that stupid movie “Precious” came out, every black person all over the world should have refused to spend money seeing that movie!!!! Hollywood would have lost money and Hollywood would be careful the next time it wanted to make a movie concerning black people. Money is power. It can have more power than the government or state!!
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Jeri,
One of the most important Black Women to come down the pike in more than a quarter of a century, is Oprah Winfrey. One of the most high profile Black Women in gov’t ever, is Coldoleeza Rice. A Black Woman in Mae Jemison has gone to space and back. Everyone knows who these Black Women are, and make no mistake about it, they are most assuredly Black.
See, this is what I mean; it seems that there is a cadre of Sistas who seem to revel in majoring in the minors. Give it a rest, already, there are bigger fish for the Sistahood to fry…
O.
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@Obsidian
I don’t agree with you!!! Issues concerning the media is very important to most black women!! If you are not interested, then that is how YOU feel! It doesn’t mean I have to go along with it!! Are you an African American male? Well, I am sure you have concerns that have to do with African American men. I wouldn’t tell you to “give it up” if a very important issue dealing with African American men was of concern to you!!! Issues such as “driving while black” or “black men not being employed like white men”!!!I would respect your opinion and probably support your right to express yourself. You seem to have a problem with black women and their “opinions”. I guess that is something you have to deal with. It is not my problem.
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Like you mentioned earlier, white people clearly admire black women’s bronze color, lips and body shape but will only admit to this preference when it involves someone who is not black!!! Like Jeniffer Lopez or Sophia Loren.
Where is it written that because somebody likes something on X that they have to like it on Y?
Should people who only drink Coke be lectured for not spending their money on Pepsi, since they are both basically carbonated water, sugar, acid and caramel color? And if they would rather have a Sprite is that a form of “color bias”.
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@Truth B Told
Wow, it has been a long time since I have heard from you! Still the same, I see. Well, it is obvious that when the media goes out of their way to portray black women in a negative fashion, that it is not some sort of coincedence. And I am going to say it again. If the media is going out of its way to not hire all the thousands of darker skin women who are trying to be actors or models, then that is racism. Period. I don’t know how else to put it.
You know what is amazing about black men such as you. You want black women to support issues that concern black men but you have a problem with black women expressing their opinion concerning their own issues. I said it earlier. Men like you have a serious maturity problem. If it doesn’t affect you, they you are not concerned. Real selfish in my opinion but that is typical of some men like you.
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jorbia says,
-Anyway, a black woman not getting a date with a white -man seems to be your SINGULAR focus because you constantly bring that up. This topic is a BROAD topic. Why do you keep reducing it to either short men, red-headed men, and black women getting dates with white men?
-I’m not in a “snit” about anything. I’m expressing my views about the insidiousness of the complexion hierarchy.
-I thought this topic was a broad topic that was speaking to this phenomenon of elevating of Caucasian female looks over black female negroid looks and the flagrant RACISM in that. My position is that the current complexion hierarchy is very harmful to these black females in personal and other ways because it prevents them from having many opportunities that similar white women get. All people of good principles and morals should work against this because it is RACISM.
-For example, when a black woman doesn’t get a job in the public arena because her lips and behind are considered “too big, raunchy or NEGROID looking” yet Angelina Jolie and Jennifer Lopez’s lips and butt respectively are raved about as being the epitome of female beauty, this is racism, NOT preference. There are many black women who are naturally built like Sophia Loren and with lips and cheekbones just like hers, but they get the silent treatment. These SAME lips and behind on a white woman are view as a positive, yet on a black female, these are seen as negative. How can anyone defend this and call it anything other than racism?
-I know that many whites who are reading this know, just like I know that there are often high profile jobs that black women do not get simply because their NEGROID features or natural hair are not the look that white employers want to put out front. These black women cannot sue because no white employer is dumb enough to tell a black woman that “we can’t hire you for that high-profile position because some of our staff or clients will be offended or frightened by your natural hair” or don’t want to look at the width of your nose or dark chocolate skin.
-This is a form of theft. The tax dollars of those black women and their families are used by the state to subsidize these corporations, the media and others who use this complexion hierarchy to discriminate against those black women for having NEGROID features and hair. This is state-sponsored racism
Jeri says,
-@Jorbia
You made an excellent point!!!Shady keeps bringing this whole “black women are upset about white men not wanting them” topic. I thought this topic was about much more than that. He is assuming that black women are all having a fit because some white men don’t want them but that is not the point of the topic. Like you mentioned earlier, white people clearly admire black women’s bronze color, lips and body shape but will only admit to this preference when it involves someone who is not black!!! Like Jeniffer Lopez or Sophia Loren. Excellent point!!!! When I saw that picture of Sophia Loren that Abagond posted, the first thought that I had was that many black women have a similar shape!!! Like you mentioned earlier, to withhold your praise for the same characteristics in an actual black woman, is racism!!!
-@Shady Grady
What I wanted to say is that I do expect the media to cater to the interest of black women just like they cater to the interest of white women. I mean, why not? If you say you are not racist, then what is wrong with putting very beautiful African ( not just those who are mixed) women on television and portraying them in a non-stereotypical fashion!! The media seems to only want to cater to the interest of whites and that is racism!! When the media does this, it causes alot of problems for African American women. People automatically assume that all black women carry themselves the way the media portrays them or that all black women look like those on television. It is very common to see very attractive light skinned black women on tv but not very attractive darker skinned black women. If you see a darker skinned woman on TV, she is either overweight or ghetto acting.
-@Shady Grady
There are millions of beautiful darker skinned black women all over the world. Some are in Africa, Europe, South America, the Carribean etc. Many are intelligent, educated, and very feminine. But do you see these type of women on TV. No you don’t!!! And it is not because they don’t exist. There are thousands of beautiful darker skinned black women who are trying to make a breakthrough in acting or modeling. But they can’t catch a break because those who control the media are determined to reject them in their RACIST attempt to portray black women in a negative way only. If these women are not ghetto acting or not overweight, whites don’t want to see them!!! Now are you saying that is not racism!!!! To refuse to employ all these beautiful and talented women!!! I personally think that black people should boycott certain movies and TV programs until those who control the media changes their focus!!
-@Shady Grady
You said that there is little one can do about some forms of racism because, according to you, some forms can not be controlled by the state or government but I think boycotting or refusing to spend your money on certain projects is enough in itself. When that stupid movie “Precious” came out, every black person all over the world should have refused to spend money seeing that movie!!!! Hollywood would have lost money and Hollywood would be careful the next time it wanted to make a movie concerning black people. Money is power. It can have more power than the government or state!!
laromana says,
jorbia and Jeri, thanks for your EXCELLENT responses to the DERAILERS who CONTINUE to MISREPRESENT/DISMISS the MAIN POINTS of this post.
To ANYONE who is willing to take an HONEST look at the way ANTI-BW RACISM is used in American culture/media to ATTACK the HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMINNITY of BW and PROMOTE a NEGATIVE/FALSE IMAGE of BW, there is NO DOUBT that this is a REAL PROBLEM that has/continues to HURT BW AT EVERY LEVEL of OUR LIVES.
BW/PRO-BW SUPPORTERS (INCLUDING ALL BM) NEED to take ANTI-BW RACISM in America SERIOUSLY and ALWAYS CONFRONT/CONDEMN IT so that it can be DESTROYED ONCE and FOR ALL.
The FACT is that THERE IS/HAS NEVER BEEN ANYTHING WRONG with BW.
WHAT had been WRONG is the ANTI-BW RACISM that has ALWAYS BEEN PRACTICED AGAINST BW in America.
NOTE: Jennifer Lopez is a LIGHT SKINNED (WHITER LOOKING) AFROLATINA (easier to see this in OLDER PICS of her) and I think it’s ANOTHER EXAMPLE of ANTI-BW RACISM that her “NON-BLACK” look is praised while DARK SKINNED AFROLATINAS/BW who have the SAME features as her are IGNORED .
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@Jeri
The men in this thread have repeatedly asked for answers and have not gotten any concrete ones. So I will ask again:
What do you propose? It is more simple and direct to oppose acts of commission (employment discrimination, driving while black, etc) because there are remedies that can be enacted (lawsuits, suspensions, etc). How do you oppose acts of omission (choosing one aesthetic over another)?
What do you propose that is practical (can actually work in the real world) and does not violate anyone’s personal freedom?
Immaturity is complaining without offering a solution. So there is no need for me to call you immature, I’ll just wait for your proposed solutions.
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Jorbia wrote
@ Shady Grady–
In 2010, being declined for a date by a white person? Preference.
To my point , with which you should agree, in the last example there is NOTHING the state can do to change that. There is no law, no Title IX like regulation, no tort available to rectify that. That’s what I saying and what I think Obsidian is saying as well.
I don’t know why you and Obsidian can’t seem to speak for your individual selves. I’ve noticed how you and he often include each other in your response. Do you feel you need for back-up or something when responding to me?
Keep dreaming. Jorbia in a response to me that you wrote YOU included Obsidian within-claiming that both of us weren’t supporting women in this state sponsored racism against Black women. I looked through my responses and the only times I mentioned Obsidian was to defend him against a particularly ridiculous ad hominem attack that he just preferred white women AND in response to your aforementioned comment. So that’s two times out of roughly twenty comments. So if you are going to claim that Obsidian and I have the same wrong POV then don’t be surprised when I respond for myself and hazard a guess as to what Obsidian’s point is. Obsidian and I have completely different POV on a myriad of issues.
Jorbia wrote
There are many black women who are naturally built like Sophia Loren and with lips and cheekbones just like hers, but they get the silent treatment. These SAME lips and behind on a white woman are view as a positive, yet on a black female, these are seen as negative. How can anyone defend this and call it anything other than racism?
In her day Sophia Loren was one of the most beautiful women on the planet. She’s still striking even at 76. By definition, there aren’t very many women of any race that have lips and cheekbones just like hers. However arguing that Loren’s looks are typical of black women would ignore several other Italian and especially Southern Italian women that are indeed somewhat similar in phenotype to Loren and certainly much closer than most Black women. If we imply that the reason why Loren got attention was her (allegedly) “blackish” looks we are really no different as I mentioned than the white person who says that Patton, Berry or Keys get attention for their Caucasoid ancestry and THAT’s what explains their beauty.
Again, black men do not view black women as secondary wives/sex symbols/girlfriends/etc; white men do. White men (in the aggregate) prefer white women. White women prefer to model themselves after white women. There are many many exceptions to this but that’s the rule. Humans are tribalistic. Why is this so problematic for you?
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@Truth B Told
I am not going to lie to you. I don’t know all the answers concerning how to solve the problem. I mentioned before that boycotting is one of the solutions. Not spending your money on racist movies is another. Supporting artist and directors that portray black people in a non-stereotypical fashion is another. I did mention solutions. You didn’t read what I said earlier?
I just hope and pray that more black people will take what is going on in the media ( hip hop, sapphire stereotypes) more seriously. It is extremely important in how it affects our lives. And it doesn’t just hurt black women! It also affects how black men are perceived as well. Many black men are perceived as gansta’s, pimps, playas etc. That can’t be good for their image neither. So this should not just be an concern for black women but black men as well. We have to unite to solve our problems. Not attack one another!
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@Laromana
Thanks for your support. I totally agree with you in that black people must do something against anti-Bw propaganda. It affects all black people in different ways and we must take it seriously!!!
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Jeri wrote
@Jorbia
You made an excellent point!!!Shady keeps bringing this whole “black women are upset about white men not wanting them” topic. I thought this topic was about much more than that. He is assuming that black women are all having a fit because some white men don’t want them but that is not the point of the topic. Like you mentioned earlier, white people clearly admire black women’s bronze color, lips and body shape but will only admit to this preference when it involves someone who is not black!!! Like Jeniffer Lopez or Sophia Loren. Excellent point!!!! When I saw that picture of Sophia Loren that Abagond posted, the first thought that I had was that many black women have a similar shape!!! Like you mentioned earlier, to withhold your praise for the same characteristics in an actual black woman, is racism!!!
I think you are stretching things just a bit. There are plenty of women that have a more generous body shape, natural color or features that you assume are non-Caucasian but who are actually Caucasian.
When I first saw this actress in “Casino Royale” I ASS-umed that she must have been Black-White biracial, South Asian, Lebanese, Turkish or other Middle Eastern, Afro-Arab or other “non-white”. As it turns out she’s Italian –Sardinian to be exact- and by American (and Italian) standards anyway, white.
To recognize her beauty doesn’t necessarily mean that one wouldn’t find the same features attractive in a “Black” woman. I certainly would. However were this woman “Black” she would be of course light skinned and with an aquiline nose, that would also set some people off. =)
The EXACT same argument can be made and has been made that any good looking black woman (Lena Horne/Halle Berry/Dorothy Dandridge/Alicia Keys/Beyonce) is only liked by black men because they can’t afford/aren’t allowed/are prevented from seeking out similar (and more common) features in white women and thus overpraising black women with “white” features is a form of racism.
Again though it was Black men, not white men, that went absolutely gaga over Serena Williams. Generally it is Black men that praise Jill Scott or Angie Stone or Angela Bassett or several other Black women who possess a decidedly non-Anglo phenotype. So I don’t really understand why that’s not enough for some Black women. Enjoy the media and men that celebrate you, ignore those that don’t. I don’t know any other solution than that.
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I agree (as I’ve said many times) that not using media that doesn’t reflect you is the best way to make changes.
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@Jeri
You did mention some solutions (boycotting bad media). That is a good way to deal with acts of commission (negative potrayal of Blacks).
Dealing with acts of omission is the trickier part and the part that I think is driving much of this debate.
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@Shady Grady
Look, you keep bringing up this topic about white men and their preferences. Like I said earlier, that is not the issue!! For me, the issue is that white producers and directors insist on portraying darker skinned black women in a negative (often stereotypical) maner. Going out of its way to promote white beauty standards and negative anti-bw stereotypes. It is racism and I do believe that if black people stop supporting these people by not spending their money, then some of this racism would end. Hollywood wants to make money. It is a business. Black people often overlook what is going on by having the same attitude that you have. The “what can you do about it” attitude. Black people have power. It is just about how we focus that power. It is that simple.
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@Truth B Told
I think that how we spend our money can deal with acts of omission also. If a director does a movie with postive characters and makes millions as a result then that would encourage Hollywood to do more movies that are similar. If you have other solutions, then you should express what they are, not just attack those who offer solutions you don’t like or solutions you don’t think will work. Come up with your answers!
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Ah. Angela Basset. The one and only for me. ´Sigh´
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@ shady grady it look like you said that quote but if jorbia said i don’t know what he meant .if so i apologize
i understand what your saying to a point when you said find someone that love you. true. but because of the negativity that’s thrown out there by society . only a small percentage of black women will experience this. the darker you are is the harder it is. it a mindset against black women.i see it everyday beautiful black women, inside and out, with their head on their shoulder,hard working etc. struggle emotionally because somebody hurt their feelings about them being too dark or undesirable and i’m like are you kidding your beautiful. some resort in to mating with someone lighter, so their kids won’t suffer like they did.
we are good enough to screw but not good enough to be seen in public on your arm or represent you. society set it that way and a lot of men do succumb to this sort of thinking. where are you going with that nappy headed gal. ghetto booty etc. and a lot of men cannot take that humiliation. its easier to accommodate a women that more physically acceptable. lighter, whiter skin and flowing hair. this is what they use to belittle black women distinct beauty. black in America are taught not to love themselves. through the media,porno,dolls,t.v. racism etc.
how many time have you seen black men that have risen to power or money their women get lighter and lighter. some of them all of a sudden have a preference. they found a new society and nappy headed gal cannot fit on that pedestal. obama is one black man that i see had the balls that took his chocolate women all the way to the white house. you know how many people have a problem they don’t look at michelle obama as a good women, but she is not pretty, she look angry,i don’t picture him with her. they are so use to seeing black men with women of other race. it seemed unnormal for him to have a black women with so much money and power.
barbara bush ain’t cute and hilliary ain’t cute . nancy ain’t cute. an none of their face seem inviting to me. and taye diggs wife is ugly. and this isn’t broadcast .that’s the thing with white society they are unaccepting to anybody that’s not like them, walk like them and chat like them, look like them, which is the issue of this post. even white people suffer under this kinda of society. the white culture honestly believe that they are god and are of some perfection. i don’t have a problem with a white individual, but i do have a problem with the white culture. that shape the minds of both black and white.
society got a lot of you twisted, love know no color but preference does. its too many choices for every damn body to have the same preference. don’t you think .( preference) black women not included that’s what preference mean to me.
America the great is a racist its build off of racism. and still feed off of racism. mainly between black and white. no other race of people in America have been oppressed like black people,( next in line the Mexicans). they destroyed the black family and destroyed how black view themselves. the blacks that’s raised in predominately white society get way more brainwash than those who are closer to there roots. (look at tiger woods), they hate themselves. and have to play the role oh i’m not like other blacks. act all passive. always striving to be accepted. my point is a lot of people look at slavery as if its done and gone and it doesn’t have its effects.
this is 400 years and then, Jim Crow, segregation,etc. yea today we have freedom and are responsible for our own lives. but some people really want to blow it off as if it was nothing, its in the past. and the blacks who understand, knows for a fact that this is the cause of a lot of the black community dysfunction, a lot of trials, trauma,legacy, tribulation etc. but don’t act as if it doesn’t have an effect. plus there is still racism. and this topic falls right on the list, happening today in America.
you have black, Asian, Hispanics, etc Americans. that work pay their taxes. we are Americans when it comes to war. but something else when it comes to being civil. stop brainwashing our children with all this white beauty. mix it up. show us some respect in how you sell us to the media.how you portray us. we are women not baboons. and acknowledge the fact that you have destroyed and is destroying our people culture and our lives. there have always been black people trying to rebuild the black community. so why stop now. black women is not society ugly women. and we ain’t going to stop here. its time for a change. we want our children, family and men back. and other men are welcome if they going to treat us right and respect us. why settle? to be a second class citizen.
i’m doing my part
excuse my spelling
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Education, education, education. Hollywood is BS! It just mimics status quo.
You should try to affect the people in responsible of educating american youth. After parents, school teachers are the most influential in one’s life. So, equal perception of all nationalities, cultures and “races” should be stressed upon in every school on this planet.
Yeah, I know. “As if”.
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And yes, I know, I’m full of egalitarian bull***t. And proud of it.
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@Medium
Excellents points. I agree with everything you just said. I wish more people are willing to listen to the outrage and hurt that black women suffer everyday. And you are right, there are many beautiful, intelligent darker black women who suffer emotionally as a result of racism. Many black women really believe there is something wrong themselves . And yes, often our men don’t support us. Sometimes they do and I applaud those black men and men in general who sincerely support us. But many of us feel alone in this world.
Medium, you spoke from the heart and I applaud you for that. Thankyou.
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Jeri wrote
I do believe that if black people stop supporting these people by not spending their money, then some of this racism would end. Hollywood wants to make money. It is a business. Black people often overlook what is going on by having the same attitude that you have. The “what can you do about it” attitude. Black people have power. It is just about how we focus that power. It is that simple
Jeri that is a distillation of all I’ve been saying throughout this discussion. In literally every post I’ve written I’ve said that the only solution which I see as valid and satisfactory is for Black people to stop consuming media that they don’t like. Over and over and over again I’ve written that. So if we agree on that, salut!
The point where I think we may not agree is that I’m not convinced that such a boycott would necessarily bring about huge change. But it might. I don’t know. Cosmopolitan or similar magazines are not all that interested in the black dollar. Ebony and Essence on the other hand are..
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@ shady grady
how much time have you seen this scenario
look at television. it would be a caste of a bunch of white individuals. one black, maybe two. no hispanic, no asian ,no indian,etc. your trying to tell me that these other groups don’t go to acting school. but they sure do find alot of them to play extras. racist country.
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@ hannu
you have a good point
@ jeri
thank you
those who feels it knows it, babe
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@ hannu
hannu you have me laughing about angela bassett, you better head to hollywood. you might have a chance
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@medium:
That’s one terrific post!
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@Shady Grady —
In her day Sophia Loren was one of the most beautiful women on the planet.
My point in comparing her to black women was to say that there are many black women in the world who have the Sophia type measurements (big breast, tiny waist, large behind) and some of those women are just as beautiful facially or even moreso BUT they never get to the big screen or to be widely seen period due to the complexion hierarchy. So no one will ever know about them. Also, there are plenty of women of all races who could be made to look really gorgeous by the time Hollywood makeup artists finish with them. For example, Alicia Keys is said to have bad skin, but how many of us have seen her acne pock marks?
@ Jeri —
It is racism and I do believe that if black people stop supporting these people by not spending their money, then some of this racism would end. Hollywood wants to make money.
Well, don’t hold your breath! A BIG part of this problem is that so many black people are avid supporters of the current complexion hierarchy TOO. I think that only a tiny number of black people, especially the men, would be willing to withhold their dollars. They feel they are entitled to their preference as is being argued in this thread.
Since men determine which woman is beautiful, I think that if black men were serious about demolishing the complexion hierarchy among blacks, all it would take is for the majority of the most prominent, influential, and richest black men in america to start dating only women who can’t pass the paper bag test. Every black man reading this could actually start doing that now. 🙂 Other black men would emulate those guys. If this went on for a few years, this would also send a strong message to Hollywood about ALL the types of black women that black men find beautiful. I’ve noticed that in the re-runs on TV, there were a lot of darker bw on TV and even in the movies years ago.
If somebody here has a billion dollars, would you please pay a large number of black men in america to start dating only those black women who can’t pass the paper bag test? 🙂
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@medium
You wouldn’t happen to have Angela’s mobile number? woot 😀
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“Since men determine which woman is beautiful, I think that if black men were serious about demolishing the complexion hierarchy among blacks, all it would take is for the majority of the most prominent, influential, and richest black men in america to start dating only women who can’t pass the paper bag test.”
I guess everybody has their own experiences and their own reality to inhabit. But, in my world, most guys are lucky enough to find a beautiful woman of ANY complexion, and are quite happy when they find one who will go out with them. I’ve never known any of my friends to say, “Wow, she’s too dark!” In fact, I’ve known, and to this day know, several very dark women who have men falling all over them all the time. One of my friends can’t even buy her own coffee at Starbucks without men (of several different races) asking to buy her coffee. I wouldn’t have thought it possible if I hadn’t seen it with my own eyes.
I get the Social hierarchy… the” blondes have more fun” angle and all but on a street level, it doesn’t seem to work like that in field of observation.
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I just don’t sign to this Anglo-phenotype whatnot. Most of the black women presented in media, despite superficial categories are hotties to me. And I also like Pink and Fergie. I love strong women.
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I just don’t sign to this Anglo-phenotype whatnot. Most of the black women presented in media, despite superficial categories are hotties to me.
Funny, I’ve known two Black female friends who’ve vacationed in Scandinavian countries, and both were SHOCKED to have been approached by so many Scandinavian men. One was telling me it felt like “Bizarro World,” where everything is backwards. She said it’s the only time she felt like she knew how blue-eyed blonde women felt in walking around in the U.S.
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jorbia says,
Since men determine which woman is beautiful, I think that if black men were serious about demolishing the complexion hierarchy among blacks, all it would take is for the majority of the most prominent, influential, and richest black men in america to start dating only women who can’t pass the paper bag test. Every black man reading this could actually start doing that now. Other black men would emulate those guys. If this went on for a few years, this would also send a strong message to Hollywood about ALL the types of black women that black men find beautiful. I’ve noticed that in the re-runs on TV, there were a lot of darker bw on TV and even in the movies years ago.
If somebody here has a billion dollars, would you please pay a large number of black men in america to start dating only those black women who can’t pass the paper bag test?
laromana says,
jorbia, thanks for this EXCELLENT, INSIGHTFUL comment.
The FACT that MOST ANTI-BW BM in America CONDONE/PROMOTE ANTI-BW RACISM is the MAIN REASON BW are VIEWED in a POSITIVE/RESPECTFUL way.
Today MOST ANTI-BW BM in America PUBLICLY DEMEAN, DEGRADE, and DISRESPECT BW and this REINFORCES ANTI-BW RACISM in the CULTURE/MEDIA.
On the web (INCLUDING this post) MANY ANTI-BW BM MAKE EXCUSES for ANTI-BW RACISM and CONDONE/MINIMIZE/RATIONALIZE it INSTEAD of DOING their BEST TO CONFRONT/CONDEMN/DESTROY IT.
It’s OBVIOUS that ANTI-BW BM COULD CARE LESS ABOUT BW or HOW BW are VIEWED/TREATED in Amercan SOCIETY/MEDIA.
NON-BW in America DON’T have to DEAL with their SAME RACE men PUBLICLY HUMILIATING THEM/TRASHING their HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY LIKE BW DO.
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@ King —
But, in my world, most guys are lucky enough to find a beautiful woman of ANY complexion, and are quite happy when they find one who will go out with them. I’ve never known any of my friends to say, “Wow, she’s too dark!” In fact, I’ve known, and to this day know, several very dark women who have men falling all over them all the time.
I’m sure you’ve heard that expression: “She’s pretty for a dark woman,” or “She’s dark BUT she’s pretty. That means that it’s accepted among black people and others that it’s unusual for a dark woman to be pretty.
I think the point of this topic is that most men think that the majority of white women are above average or hotties. I think it was Hannu who said that Hollywood just accepts that status quo.
In other words, a dark complected woman has to really be very pretty to be pretty, but a white woman can just be ordinary looking or even less than ordinary looking (like Sara Jessica Parker) and be presented as gorgeous. And no one questions it. That’s the complexion hierarchy and black men rubber stamp that hierarchy every day TOO.
@Hannu–
I just don’t sign to this Anglo-phenotype whatnot. Most of the black women presented in media, despite superficial categories are hotties to me. And I also like Pink and Fergie. I love strong women.
It’s nice to meet you. 🙂 It’s great to encounter men who can think for themselves.
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King says,
Funny, I’ve known two Black female friends who’ve vacationed in Scandinavian countries, and both were SHOCKED to have been approached by so many Scandinavian men. One was telling me it felt like “Bizarro World,” where everything is backwards. She said it’s the only time she felt like she knew how blue-eyed blonde women felt in walking around in the U.S.
laromana says,
King, I’ve heard other BW who have visited Europe say the same things as your friend who vacationed in Scandinavia.
It seems that once BW LEAVE AMERICA and go to EUROPE we SUDDENLY BECOME REAL, VISIBLE, NORMAL WOMEN.
It CRAZY that I/MOST BW WILL HAVE TO LEAVE THE U.S. to EXPERIENCE BEING TREATED WITH LOVE/RESPECT (LIKE NORMAL HUMAN WOMEN).
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@Laromana —
It seems that once BW LEAVE AMERICA and go to EUROPE we SUDDENLY BECOME REAL, VISIBLE, NORMAL WOMEN.
It CRAZY that I/MOST BW WILL HAVE TO LEAVE THE U.S. to EXPERIENCE BEING TREATED WITH LOVE/RESPECT (LIKE NORMAL HUMAN WOMEN).
Isn’t that wonderful! If nothing else, this topic has brought this out. There are some places where black women are regarded as “real, visible, normal” women and pursued as such. Just imagine that!
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“Isn’t that wonderful! If nothing else, this topic has brought this out. There are some places where black women are regarded as “real, visible, normal” women and pursued as such. Just imagine that!”
Yep, I’m in Scandinavia 🙂 Born and raised here and i am a visible Black woman, and i have been treated like a normal woman all my life lol I am actually afraid to visit America, i’m not sure i would be ready to face any racism. I’ve heard so many stories…I don’t understand why America treat Black women like aliens, you would think after all this time that Black people have been in America, they wouldn’t be treated like second class citizens.
Here, a woman is a woman, you are an individual. I can’t speak for all nordic european countries, but the country i am in is like that. I don’t ever worry about my skin color being a problem. I go to places where i might be the only Black person, but it doesn’t bother me, i don’t think about it and i don’t get treated differently.
I get approached by all kinds of men, but mostly white men because there are more of them here.
I would describe it as being raceless, or colorless because it has no importance here, at least that has been my experience all my life.
When i look at America and how it seem they treat Black women, i feel really sad. America is supposed to be the melting pot, which it is, but then why is everyone so separate? Why the hyphen for everyone except White American people? It’s very disturbing.
To sum it all up. Here, if you are a beautiful woman, you are simply a beautiful woman. My honest advice for Black American women would be to travel to Europe. If you are not appreciated in America you are not obligated to stay where you are mistreated in the media and daily life.
If your skin color and womanhood is used to discriminate and belittle you then that is enough to pack your bags.
Life is too short to stay where you are not welcome.
It seems Black women in America are stereotyped and bashed by everyone who wants an easy target (racism + sexism) and surprisingly even from Black men.
I feel awful for little Black girls who have to grow up around that poison, and i feel lucky to have never gone through that.
/”Anon”
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Laromana wrote: “It seems that once BW LEAVE AMERICA and go to EUROPE we SUDDENLY BECOME REAL, VISIBLE, NORMAL WOMEN.”
Yes, indeed.
When I was 17 I went on a trip to the cities of Stockholm, Copenhagen, Jerusalem, Rome and Paris. I had admirers in each city we visited, and even went on two dinner dates whilst in Jerusalem (we were in that one city the longest).
Not only were the men in these cities attentive (and not just the locals; I had a GORGEOUS admirer from Baghdad who I met in my last few hours before departing Copenhagen) but we were generally treated like royalty everywhere we went.
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@ leigh
thank you
@ hannu
i want her number for my self so she can pay for my plane ticket to go to scandinavia, i’ll take lamorna and jeri with me , get out of this mess
and abandon the tribe
just jokes
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@ hannu
they sold out marcus garvey for rice
i sell them out for a plane ticket to scandinavia
just jokes i have to laugh too
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I remember a few months ago I saw a picture of Sophia Loren and her family, and I remember thinking this: Who is this mixed woman? I’ve never seen her before. I read the fine print and realized it was Sophia Loren and her son’s family. Even before I read years ago where she admitted that her grandfather was black, I thought there was something special about her beauty, not that it was better. To me, she is the most beautiful white woman in hollywood history. I don’t abide by the one drop rule. To me she is white.
I work in the film industry and I write, produce and act in my own films. I am currently working on my second film as a writer and producer and will soon start casting for the third film. I’ve held castings and I have to say that even though I see all races of women as “equally beautiful” meaning that no one race is more beautiful than the other, I will say that when comparing headshots of white women with other women of color, I find myself gazing at the women of color longer or first. I think the beauty of women of color is just “standout”. That is not a slight against white women because white women can hold their own but to me women of color have that something extra.
The only reason the media forces that nonsense down our throats about white women being the most beautiful is because that’s the only way to get the masses to believe, not that many do anyway.
No offense to “overweight black women” but I am sick of the mammy image of black women that is being promoted. Yes, their stories need to be told to and yes they should be represented but there are other types of black women that are not being presented. My goal is to promote positive non stereotypical images of black women in my films. I will mostly put attractive, classy, slender/thin/non-overweight black women in my films. That may sound harsh, but black women have to be in control of our image. We can’t have others choosing our representation for us. Of course, they will choose the type of woman that is no threat to the system.
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medium says,
@ hannu
i want her number for my self so she can pay for my plane ticket to go to scandinavia, i’ll take lamorna and jeri with me , get out of this messand abandon the tribe just jokes
laromana says
medium, I would love to join you and jeri on a trip to Scandinavia (always wanted to visit that part of the world).
jorbia says,
Isn’t that wonderful! If nothing else, this topic has brought this out. There are some places where black women are regarded as “real, visible, normal” women and pursued as such. Just imagine that!
laromana says,
jorbia, it is wonderful that there are OTHER places where BW are treated like the BEAUTIFUL, LOVING, INTELLIGENT, WONDERFUL REAL WOMEN THAT WE ACTUALLY ARE!
Anon,
Thanks for confirming that there are OTHER COUNTRIES where BW are NOT treated INVISIBLE ALIENS but BEAUTIFUL, NORMAL WOMEN.
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Shan
I remember a few months ago I saw a picture of Sophia Loren and her family, and I remember thinking this: Who is this mixed woman? I’ve never seen her before. I read the fine print and realized it was Sophia Loren and her son’s family. Even before I read years ago where she admitted that her grandfather was black, I thought there was something special about her beauty, not that it was better. To me, she is the most beautiful white woman in hollywood history. I don’t abide by the one drop rule. To me she is white.
No offense to “overweight black women” but I am sick of the mammy image of black women that is being promoted. Yes, their stories need to be told to and yes they should be represented but there are other types of black women that are not being presented. My goal is to promote positive non stereotypical images of black women in my films. I will mostly put attractive, classy, slender/thin/non-overweight black women in my films. That may sound harsh, but black women have to be in control of our image. We can’t have others choosing our representation for us. Of course, they will choose the type of woman that is no threat to the system.
laromana says,
Thanks for mentioning that you, too, had read about Sophia’s Black grandfather. I couldn’t remember where I had read it and I couldn’t find ANYTHING online to corroborate this interesting fact about her ancestry.
Thanks, too, for choosing to portray BW in a POSITIVE way on film.
For so long I’ve suggested that BW/PRO-BW SUPPORTERS in the movie industry create films that portray BW in a POSITIVE, NON-STEREOTYPICAL way.
I’m THRILLED to hear that it is your goal to IMPROVE the IMAGE of BW in film and help CHANGE the NEGATIVE images that have been PROMOTED, via ANTI-BW RACISM/RACISTS, in American culture/media.
I wish you the BEST in this ADMIRABLE endeavor!
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I think the following documentary film successfully summarizes much of the questions and issues raised in this thread.
In my view its not enough to ignore the effects of such harmful artificially created beauty standards.
The “internalised racism” amongst Black men and women that so many of these comments reflect is just one of those harmful effects.
They have to be successfully addressed before any attempts can be made to “MOVE ON” Otherwise you are doomed to perpetuate their continuance.
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-modern-racist-paradigm/
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Kwamla,
Thanks for being a PRO-BW BM who cares enough about BW to encourage others to STOP IGNORING ANTI-BW RACISM (and it’s MANY NEGATIVE EFFECTS on BOTH BW AND BM) and work hard to CONFRONT/CONDEMN/DESTROY IT.
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Your welcome Laromana!!
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@ kwamla
i agree with what you said absoulutely.
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Thank you Laromana.
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Argh. Seems that I don’t know how to use the “quote”-function. Damn it!
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It’s nice to meet you. It’s great to encounter men who can think for themselves.
Well thank you! Believe me, scandinavian women in general definitely aren’t “way above average looking hotties”. I wish! But of course it might seem like an oasis to foreign guys when they go to a nightclub. And by the way, most of them are fake blonds anyway. Nothing against blondes, but they are not as fair as nature made them.
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@medium
Come one, come all! Hey, i have a single friend who’s 6´1″ like me, but he’s got blond hair and blue eyes and lotsa muscles. And an ex-model, might I add… 😉
Lol, this is getting interesting…
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You’re welcome, Shan.
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bw are beautiful: http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kynm3uMDcc1qb8ulqo1_500.jpg
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I forgot to mention in my last post that Hal Williams who played Lester in 227 once mentioned in an interview that producers/directors were reluctant to cast “beautiful black actresses” alongside white actresses in fear that the black actress would steal the show. That could have a lot to do as to why hollywood has no problem promoting the “black mammy”. It’s a non threatening image.
I personally don’t think one race is better looking than the other. Each race has a feature that all other races admire or like anyway. I think hollywood would be more interesting if this divide didn’t exist. I actually believe that the actors would be more talented or either take their craft more seriously if they knew that their success would be solely based on their talent.
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Shan says,
I forgot to mention in my last post that Hal Williams who played Lester in 227 once mentioned in an interview that producers/directors were reluctant to cast “beautiful black actresses” alongside white actresses in fear that the black actress would steal the show. That could have a lot to do as to why hollywood has no problem promoting the “black mammy”. It’s a non threatening image.
I personally don’t think one race is better looking than the other. Each race has a feature that all other races admire or like anyway. I think hollywood would be more interesting if this divide didn’t exist. I actually believe that the actors would be more talented or either take their craft more seriously if they knew that their success would be solely based on their talent.
laromana says,
Shan, my sister who has friends in the industry, confirmed that what you’re saying about Hollywood’s ANTI-BW attitude is correct. It’s great to see that you are ACTIVELY confronting this problem.
It’s time this WARPED/RACIST/ANTI-BW mindset was challenged so that actors can be judged on their TALENT and not their RACE.
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@Kwamla —
artificially created beauty standards . . . have to be successfully addressed before any attempts can be made to “MOVE ON” Otherwise you are doomed to perpetuate their continuance.
YES! I SO appreciate your insight!
@Shan–
I personally don’t think one race is better looking than the other.
Actual beauty is totally subjective, despite all of the attempts at fake proof and scientific analysis. What most people consider to be beautiful in a woman has simply been spoon-fed to them by the state. I think very few men have the courage to take the state’s lens off and see ALL the beauty. Or maybe the state lens has blinded them permanently to all the beauty.
I actually respect the courage of men who will simply say I prefer white women or Euro looks simply because I prefer them, without trying to explain their garbage to others or trying to get others to understand or approve of their “preference.”
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jorbia said:
I actually respect the courage of men who will simply say “I prefer white women or Euro looks simply because I prefer them”, without trying to explain their garbage to others or trying to get others to understand or approve of their “preference.”
Menelik says:
there is nothing courageous about preferring a societal norm lol. Now saying publically you prefer sex with animals…
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I’ve always felt that the idea of White beauty is one of the hottest things this society has ever packaged and sold. I think black women, especially on the darker end of the spectrum, feel they have to compete with this prefabricated notion of beauty that clearly doesn’t fit them. The contrast is too extreme for that and it’s best left up to women who in general have more in common with them physically.
I think Black Women would be better engaged in setting to a standard of beauty that highlights features that set them apart. Unfortunately with any standard there has to be a decision to achieve it in order for it to be a solid, cultural representation.
The concentration of melanin and hair texture is what sets the majority of Black women apart from other races and combos and that needs to be played up.
The eyes should be clear (the whites). Nothing makes the Almond shaped eye most black women have more piercing than against radiant, clear skin darker skin. A great smile benefits all women but again that skin tone is your canvas and your smile will be noticed more. The textured hair should be arranged in styles that are unique and attractive. When a black woman with her natural texture smooths her hair away from her face there are rows and rows of waves, when she braids her own hair the ends form a coil, I like afro puff the most on black women-really accentuates the neck and those eyes, styles that can only be accomplished with that texture. Plus you have plenty of evidence the textured hair can grow past your bra strap, it’s cheaper just to grow the stuff. The body should be healthy (not in pounds but tone) and carried with grace. Women in Africa carry jars on their heads and babies on their backs and they glide as if they are empty handed.
Lauryn Hill in the 90s is a perfect example of this, Vanessa A. Williams (the dark one) in her Soul Food years.
Other races of women should not have to be put down to make Black Women feel good about being Black Women either. Don’t treat being a Black Woman like a burden because everybody else will empathize and try to help you “cope” with it.
I purpose less money spent on weaves and designer shoes and handbags and more on trips to the dentist and dermatologist, the result are more cost effective and last longer. More sleep, a better diet, and less stress makes the result even better.
Everything I just said is attainable and doesn’t rely on a White Scale meaning you will be more appreciated for perfecting what you were given instead of changing it.
Plus most black women aren’t prone to excessive body hair and that is very feminine indeed.
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@all you black ladies and all you guys out there:
One more time, this is what has happened up here:
Iyabode Ololade Remilekun Odusoga aka Lola Odusoga, at present Lola Wallinkoski. Miss Finland 1996, second runner up in Mss Universe 1996, Miss Scandinavia 1997. Successful model, media personality, has her own tv- shows etc. Finnish beauty to the bone and yes, a black woman. Has a nice way of swearing too!:-D
http://www.google.fi/images?q=lola+wallinkoski&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:fi:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=it_kTOe1EIyGhQeNyZCDDQ&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CDEQsAQwAA
There you have some pictures of her. So, it is possible to be black, a finn and successfull up here. Of course, we have racists here too, but as she proves, there is nothing to stop you doing what ever you want. Black or white.
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heres another black lady who has made a career and life in the snow white northern wilderness:
http://www.google.fi/images?hl=fi&lr=lang_fi&client=firefox-a&hs=G6f&rls=org.mozilla:fi:official&q=caron+barnes&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=_-XkTI_AMsvtsgaNsNS0Cw&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CDQQsAQwAA
Caron Barnes, brittish born black singer/model/actress. Married to a finnish guy, has been acting on a lead in finnish theater in Tampere.
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@Kwamla
thanks 4 posting the documentary
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and here are some black finnish actors:
the guy on the right, Henry Hanikka, was in one of the most iconic roles in Finland when he played the legendary war hero Rokka in the teather version of Väinö Linnas Unknown soldier. And he did very well indeed. Also directing etc. Has appeared in tv movies etc. Great actor!
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@Menelik–
there is nothing courageous about preferring a societal norm lol. Now saying publically you prefer sex with animals…
I attract black men on campus or at my job who are attracted by my Euro “looks.” When they find out I’m not actually white, some are so “relieved” because they then don’t have to try to explain their white preference to other blacks. These guys love to tell others that I’m black. I would respect them if they just said to everyone, “I prefer white women,” rather than be with me under the pretext that I’m a black woman who just happens to be white-looking. I feel used when that happens because I know that the main reason they’re attracted to me is because of the “white” in me. I feel like a fetish. For that reason, I’m suspicious of why a black man is even interested in me.
That’s what I mean. I don’t believe that most black men have the courage to just scream to the world: “I want a white woman.” You may not know this, but plenty of them have that preference. Apparently, it is not a societal norm in America for black men to prefer white women because in that case, these guys wouldn’t put themselves and me through this.
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Jorbia,
Sounds to me by your own experience, that if anything, i’s Black Women who take the most issue with Black/White dating etc than Black Me, because Black Women don’t have to go through all the changes you just talked about that Black Men do when they encounter someone who is White or as you put it, has some White in them. Again, Jill Scott has made her disdain for Black/White IR dating quite well known in Essence magazine, and she is by no means alone among Black Women. Please show me the articles Eric Benet and Sean Coombs have written registering how they felt some kind of way about Black or otherwise non-White White Women hooking up with White Men?
I’ll wait… 😉
Holla back
O.
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Obsidian, your comment was not fully clear, but I can’t say I’ve had a problem with black men in public objecting to me going out with white guys because when I’m with a white guy, I think it’s assumed that I’m white. When black men know I’m not white and see me out with a white guy, a few of them have made little comments later.
I know of obviously black women who do have a real concern about going out with white men because they say that black men sometimes heckle them in public situations and accuse them of selling out or of being a “slave girl” or make other ridiculous comments.
There are black women on my campus who have experienced that and I’ve read where other black women have had similar experiences. Women are concerned about safety. 🙂 I’ve also read in the news lately of very violent attacks on 2 black/white couples by groups of black men, where the woman was black and the man was white. The white guys in both cases had to be hospitalized. Do you know of cases where black women violently attacked black men with white women which required hospitalization? If someone has the links, they can post the links to these stories. I wondered why these black men have a problem with black women who are with white men since the rate of black men going out with white women is so much more.
So, no I haven’t read where any male celebrity publicly objected, but it’s obvious that a lot of black men don’t like it when they see black women with white men.
And even though some black men may not believe that “snow makes you smarter,” a lot of those same guys do believe that snow makes a woman prettier.
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Obsidian,
Black men have a different way of publicizing their disdain for bw/wm relationships. Of course they are not going to speak publicly about it the way women do. They are men. They (such as Chris Rock and other comedians) say things like, bw don’t want wm or bw are not attracted to wm. How would they know? They are neither bw or wm, but yet they are speaking for bw. Do you hear bw in the media telling others who bm like or want? No. Do you hear wm in the media telling others who bw like or want? No. Only bm do that. Why do t hey do that? Maybe hoping the interracial numbers between bw and wm don’t increase. I’ve seen and know many bw who date wm or who are attracted to them and of course there are some who are not attracted to wm. So why only play up one side of it?!
WarrenAZ,
You are spot on. I don’t understand the mentality of some bw. Maybe some are just not strong enough even in mature age to see past the bull that the media promotes. The very features that bw have that make them unique are the very features that others admire in non bw who have them. The euro standard of beauty is for WHITE WOMEN and other women who look white. Why follow something that goes against how you were naturally made? It’s foolishness anyway.
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Shan said:
Black men have a different way of publicizing their disdain for bw/wm relationships. Of course they are not going to speak publicly about it the way women do. They are men. They (such as Chris Rock and other comedians) say things like, bw don’t want wm or bw are not attracted to wm. How would they know?
Menelik replies:
because Black women have said so themselves…privately and publically. Most Black women prefer Black men (and vice versa) agreed? Won’t bother asking how you know this to be true though lol
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jorbia says,
-Obsidian, your comment was not fully clear, but I can’t say I’ve had a problem with black men in public objecting to me going out with white guys because when I’m with a white guy, I think it’s assumed that I’m white. When black men know I’m not white and see me out with a white guy, a few of them have made little comments later.
-I know of obviously black women who do have a real concern about going out with white men because they say that black men sometimes heckle them in public situations and accuse them of selling out or of being a “slave girl” or make other ridiculous comments.
Shan says,
Obsidian,
Black men have a different way of publicizing their disdain for bw/wm relationships. Of course they are not going to speak publicly about it the way women do. They are men. They (such as Chris Rock and other comedians) say things like, bw don’t want wm or bw are not attracted to wm. How would they know? They are neither bw or wm, but yet they are speaking for bw. Do you hear bw in the media telling others who bm like or want? No. Do you hear wm in the media telling others who bw like or want? No. Only bm do that. Why do t hey do that? Maybe hoping the interracial numbers between bw and wm don’t increase. I’ve seen and know many bw who date wm or who are attracted to them and of course there are some who are not attracted to wm. So why only play up one side of it?!
WarrenAZ says,
You are spot on. I don’t understand the mentality of some bw. Maybe some are just not strong enough even in mature age to see past the bull that the media promotes. The very features that bw have that make them unique are the very features that others admire in non bw who have them. The euro standard of beauty is for WHITE WOMEN and other women who look white. Why follow something that goes against how you were naturally made? It’s foolishness anyway.
laromana says,
jorbia, Shan and WarrenAZ, I feel that it’s OUTRAGEOUS that MOST ANTI-BW BM (INCLUDING SOME CELEBRITIES) USE ANTI-BW RACISM to PUBLICLY DEGRADE, DEMEAN, and DISRESPECT BW (as well as VIOLENTLY ATTACK their NON-BLACK PARTNERS).
By PUBLICLY DISRESPECTING BW/THEIR RELATIONSHIPS, these ANTI-BW BM SEND the NEGATIVE MESSAGE that BW’S HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY AREN’T WORTHY of RESPECT BY ANYONE.
ALSO, WHEN ANTI-BW BM PUBLICLY DECLARE their EXCLUSIVE PREFERENCE for NON-BW (SOMETHING ONLY ANTI-BW BM DO) they SEND a STRONG, NEGATIVE MESSAGE that they DON’T CONSIDER their SAME RACE WOMEN “GOOD ENOUGH” to DATE or MARRY and that OTHER MEN SHOULDN’T EITHER.
SINCE ANTI-BW BM have NO BUSINESS INTERFERING in ANY ASPECT of BW’S LIVES (ESPECIALLY THEIR RELATIONSHIP LIVES), THEY HAVE SOME NERVE DOING THIS.
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@ Shan —
They (such as Chris Rock and other comedians) say things like, bw don’t want wm or bw are not attracted to wm. How would they know? They are neither bw or wm, but yet they are speaking for bw. Do you hear bw in the media telling others who bm like or want? No. Do you hear wm in the media telling others who bw like or want? No. Only bm do that. Why do t hey do that? Maybe hoping the interracial numbers between bw and wm don’t increase. I’ve seen and know many bw who date wm or who are attracted to them
True, Shan. I’ve noticed this too. Black American men seem to believe they should speak for black women. Why is that? Because of America’s stature in the world and due to various American high-profile black women, American black women are known for being intelligent, well educated, well spoken, and obviously highly capable of speaking for themselves, yet black men like Chris Rock and others, do try to point white men and black women away from each other using various tactics. As you said, it does seem that they try to discourage black women and white men relationships. Why would black men even care especially since they are themselves having relationships with white and other women at a high rate?
I noticed how Obsidian TOLD black women the other day what we should talk about and what our priorities should be as if women are not capable of knowing what we want to talk about or of choosing our own priorities. Instead, it seems to me that black American men need to tell each other what THEIR priorities should be since these men obviously need help. Obsidian even talks about that on his site and complains that no one is paying attention to black men. Then, why don’t they pay attention to each other?
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@Menelik–
because Black women have said so themselves…privately and publically. Most Black women prefer Black men (and vice versa) agreed? Won’t bother asking how you know this to be true though lol
I don’t agree, not when it comes to black women. Menelik, it may make you feel better to believe this, but many black women would tell a black man they prefer them to make that man feel better. Some women are highly aware of how the ego of certain men need to be stroked. If a black woman were to tell a man like you that she prefers white men, what would your reaction be?
Some black women are very attracted to white men. They even prefer them. Some black women are very attracted to black men. They even prefer them. As I said above, some black women are very cautious about how they relate to white men when they are around black men due to heckling, crudeness and sometimes even worse.
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jorbia says,
As I said above, some black women are very cautious about how they relate to white men when they are around black men due to heckling, crudeness and sometimes even worse.
laromana says,
jorbia, I believe in RECIPROCITY when it comes to how BW should relate to BM.
For example, if I PREFER WM, THAT’S MY BUSINESS, and I WON’T ALLOW ANY BM TO “INITMIDATE ME” INTO NOT ACTING ON MY PREFERENCE.
WHO DO THESE ANTI-BW BM THINK THEY ARE ANYWAY?
If an American BM is ANTI-BW, I DON’T OWE HIM ANYTHING and IF HE ATTEMPTS TO INTERFERE IN ANY PART OF MY LIFE I HAVE THE RIGHT TO DEFEND MYSELF/MY LOVED ONES IN ANY WAY I DEEM APPROPRIATE.
BW have the RIGHT to LIVE THEIR LIVES ANY WAY THEY CHOOSE and NO ONE, ESPECIALLY ANTI-BW BM, is ALLOWED to DICTATE (IN ANY WAY) HOW WE LIVE OUR LIVES.
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jorbia, I believe in RECIPROCITY when it comes to how BW should relate to BM.
For example, if I PREFER WM, THAT’S MY BUSINESS, and I WON’T ALLOW ANY BM TO “INITMIDATE ME” INTO NOT ACTING ON MY PREFERENCE.
Yes, we all want a stress free social life. No woman should feel that they’re going to have a problem just because they’re going out to the movies or hanging out somewhere with a man they like. There are a lot of different nationalities and races on my northeastern campus, and the only women who ever talk about feeling they’re going to be harassed for going out with men from other groups are black women. Some women from Africa there say that black American men have made little comments to them too if they see them with white guys or guys who they even think are white.
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For that reason, I’m suspicious of why a black man is even interested in me.
And this is one of the things that bothers me about this “conversation”. A dark skinned black man like myself can never win. I would guess that I am darker than 98% of the women I meet, no matter her race. If men like me DARE show any interest in any woman lighter than ourselves (even though 98% of Women fit the bill) then it must be some form of brainwashing/self-hate/beauty standards/black woman hating, etc.
It can never be that they are NORMAL HEALTHY MEN who like ALL MEN are interested in ATTRACTIVE women. No, we are supposed to limit ourselves to only a small portion of the human female population. A White man by default can never be “colorist” seeing how most non-white women are automatically darker than him.
And notice that it is only a one way street. If a Dark skin man pursues a light skin woman than there is some great affront being committed on darker skin women. It never seems to catch on with the colorism police that the light skin woman is CHOOSING a darker skinned man over potential lighter skin men. The ligher skin woman never gets credit for overcoming “media brainwashing” , instead she gets attacked for “stealing” dark skin men from dark skin women.
The opposite is true. If a light skin man pursues a dark skin woman, then he is treated as a “independent thinker” and the colorism police is silent and no one ever questions light skin men about “stealing” dark skin women away from dark skin men (as if any group “belongs” to another). No one ever accuses dark skin women of being “brainwashed.
Nevermind that we all consume the same media. Magically only dark skinned men (and the light skin women that indulge them) are susceptible and accountable to the effects.
This “conversation” gives Black men 3 options:
1) voice your opposition to the nonsense and endure all sorts of attacks on your character for DARING to speaking out of the place designated for you (in dark skin womens beds ONLY). Just merely speaking is “evidence” of your being brainwashed/self-hating/beauty standards promoting/black woman hating, etc. If anyone has the leverage/power don’t be surprised to even have your voice muted from the conversation.
2) ignore the conversation and “accept” that you are brainwashed/self-hating/beauty standards promoting/black woman hating, etc. Even though you really aren’t it is better than the alternative that is #3.
3) surrender you manhood and LIMIT yourself to a small segment of the female population out of some misguided notion that you are striking a victory for “civil rights”.
I fluctuate between option 1 and option 2. I don’t forsee myself ever doing option 3, as I don’t do “sympathy sex” let alone “sympathy romance”. Besides, I couldn’t respect ANY WOMAN that I needed to be browbeated and shamed into being with. Even more so, I can’t respect ANY WOMAN who feels that it is okay to “acquire” men who have been browbeaten and shamed into “liking” them.
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Black men will stop giving advice or voicing their opinion about Black women when Black women stop voicing their opinion about or giving advice to Black men. In other words, about three weeks past never.
Women and men of every race or ethnicity constantly give their opinions (some self-serving, some not) about the opposite gender. It’s human nature.
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Menelik,
I know it to be true because I am a bw. Bw who prefer bm publicize it. Bw who prefer wm or who are open to dating non bm don’t publicize which makes it seem that all bw prefer bm when that is not the case.
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@ Truth B. Told —
I would guess that I am darker than 98% of the women I meet, no matter her race. If men like me DARE show any interest in any woman lighter than ourselves (even though 98% of Women fit the bill) then it must be some form of brainwashing/self-hate/beauty standards/black woman hating, etc.
I think that you are greatly simplifying this situation to the point of being disingenuous. I’m sure you know what the issues are here and if not, then maybe a guy here can explain it all to you.
It can never be that they are NORMAL HEALTHY MEN who like ALL MEN are interested in ATTRACTIVE women.
Per this thread, when most of the “ATTRACTIVE” women are thought to be white women or those who can pass the paper bag test or are Euro featured, then don’t you find that it’s suspicious and brutal to good women that so many men can’t see the the attractiveness in women who are darker than the paper bag? This is the same complexion hierarchy that victimizes you as a black man, but in other ways.
(in dark skin womens beds ONLY).
You make that sound like that would be a curse or something. What does it matter whether she’s dark or not. That’s the whole point to the thread, I thought. ALL women are WOMEN. A dark-skinned woman is STILL a woman. She can be much more attractive than a light woman. Would you ever complain about being ONLY in a white woman’s bed? Would you make that sound like a curse too?
I don’t forsee myself ever doing option 3, as I don’t do “sympathy sex” let alone “sympathy romance”.
Well, some of us women who are lighter than that paper bag don’t want to be “fetish” romance OBJECTS either. I don’t want any man wanting to be with me because he’s think that “snow” makes me prettier.
Besides, I couldn’t respect ANY WOMAN that I needed to be browbeated and shamed into being with. Even more so, I can’t respect ANY WOMAN who feels that it is okay to “acquire” men who have been browbeaten and shamed into “liking” them
Well, I couldn’t respect any man who wants me ONLY or MAINLY for my complexion or can only see me as attractive if I’m of a more-Euro complexion or featured. There are women like me who know that some black men want them for their complexion and they don’t care. Some of those women use their complexion to manipulate the situation to get what they want. I just happen not to be one of those women and I think it does a lot of harm to most black women who don’t happen to be lighter than a paper bag or don’t look Euro because that’s called upholding white supremacy or the complexion hierarchy that so many blacks constantly complain about. Why would YOU, a black man, want to do that?
Black men are known to be notorious for this. It’s common knowledge by now that lots of black men seek out lighter women or white women simply because they’re lighter. I hope no one will start posting those links citing faulty or selective research about how ALL men supposedly are attracted to lighter women.
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Shady_Grady says,
Black men will stop giving advice or voicing their opinion about Black women when Black women stop voicing their opinion about or giving advice to Black men. In other words, about three weeks past never.
Women and men of every race or ethnicity constantly give their opinions (some self-serving, some not) about the opposite gender. It’s human nature
laromana says,
SG, ANTI-BW BM AREN’T JUST “GIVING THEIR OPINION”. WE WOULDN’T BE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION IF THAT WAS ALL THERE WAS TO IT.
SEVERAL BW HAVE ALREADY MENTIONED HOW ANTI-BW BM WILL TRY TO “DISRESPECT/INTIMIDATE” THEM WHEN THEY’RE OUT WITH NON-BM OR THINK THEY HAVE THE “RIGHT” TO DICTATE WHO BW SHOULD/SHOULDN’T DATE. THAT’S WHAT WE’RE TALKING ABOUT SG, AND I’VE GOT NEWS FOR YOU, BW DON’T OWE ANTI-BW BM MEN ANYTHING.
WE CAN LIVE OUR LIVES ANY WAY WE WANT WITHOUT COWTOWING TO ANTI-BW BM OR ANYONE ELSE. GET IT?!
Truth B. Told
For that reason, I’m suspicious of why a black man is even interested in me.
And this is one of the things that bothers me about this “conversation”. A dark skinned black man like myself can never win. I would guess that I am darker than 98% of the women I meet, no matter her race. If men like me DARE show any interest in any woman lighter than ourselves (even though 98% of Women fit the bill) then it must be some form of brainwashing/self-hate/beauty standards/black woman hating, etc.
laromana says,
TBT, WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? MOST BW COULD CARE LESS WHO BM DATE.
IT’S HYPOCRITICAL, RACIST, ANTI-BW BM, WHO HATE BW, WHO ARE GOING AROUND TRYING TO CONTROL WHICH MEN BW DATE OR MARRY.
DATE/MARRY WHO YOU WANT AND TELL ANTI-BW BM TO STAY OUT OF BW’S BUSINESS.
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Shan & jorbia,
both of you are somewhat delusional and ill. If you insist something is so then I shall accept it because you speak for the vast majority of Black men and women (both groups according to you two prefer white women and men).
Seriously, in your perverse, and desperate, attempts to score points against Black men you are prepared to turn a half-truth into a full-blown lie and a lie into an outrageous racist assault!
I feel sorry for you both.
Please take my advice and assimilate into the white race. Cease commenting on any issues relating to Black America. Give Glen Beck a try. The masses of self-respecting Black people can do without you.
Bye!
Menelik Charles
London
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laromana,
I’d like to know how my remarks are disrespectful, violent, or abusive. Black women need to set their on standard of beauty, is that something you think would lead to the abuse and violence against Black Women? I highly doubt it.
Shan,
It’s such a bold statement for a collective of Black American Women to promote and perfect these differences. Imagine the self esteem they could foster among the young girls and the respect it would command in this nation. In the age of Youtube there is no reason why this seniment can’t be shared and demonstrated as any other idea or solution that Black Women adapt.
All,
If Black American Women want to stem the tide of negative representation they have to create and fortify their own positive image. I challenge Black American Women to be creative and diligent in this pursuit. So far there is no positive standard for asthetics that Black American Women can agree on unless it qualifies all Black American Women and that itself defeats the purpose of having one.
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@ Truth B Told,
is great to have you back, man; yours is always a voice of reason who’s guaranteed to cut through the lies and delusions many on here peddle as crystal-clear truths.
Welcome back, Bro!
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Menelik,
Delusional and ill? If you are going to use that type of language simply because you don’t agree maybe YOU should leave. Where did it say in my post that most bw and bm prefer wm and wm? Find it! I never said that. Reread the post to clear your head. I simply said that bw who are open to dating wm and other non bm do not publicize it. Bw who prefer bm are the ones who usually publicize it which will make it seem that most and all black women prefer bm which may be the case but its not a strong majority. What that means Menelik, is that there are plenty of bw (even though your ego may not be able to handle it) who like non bm. And yes the majority of bw may like and prefer bm but there is a substantial number of bw who are OPEN to dating other races but no one is speaking on their behalf which makes it seem that there are no bw who may be open or interested in other races.
I can walk past a bm and ww who are conversing and laughing and it will not phase me. Yet, when I am conversing with a wm or having a laugh some bm and ww give me the side eye. Can you explain that? Is it because bw dare not “stay in their place?” This is from my personal experience and has happened on numerous occasions so these are not isolated incidences. I’ve actually had bm approach me after I was through talking and laughing with a wm and say “Why you talking to all these white boys?” as if I owe them an explanation. And yet these same bm will turn around and “holler” up white women, latinas and dare me or any other bw to say something about it. Of course there are some bm who don’t care but I’m obviously not speaking about those men.
In the 90s and early 2000s, bw were publicizing the “nothing but a brutha” propaganda. I don’t hear that as often today. It is because many bw are opening their eyes to the hypocrisy of some bm who bed down and marry white women and latinas and get googly eyed over them and yet expect bw to sit around and either be alone or wait for that “good brutha.”
Interracial numbers are increasing, not that I’m impressed with that. There are way more bm dating interracially than bw anyway, but the playing field will soon even out. Maybe that’s what many bm are afraid of…..they don’t want bw interracial numbers to equal or surpass theirs…..just a thought.
You may think that I prefer wm simply because I’m not on the “nothing but a brutha” bandwagon, but that is far from the truth. I just don’t listen to the mind control propaganda that many bw are under and I march to the beat of my own drum. Most of the men I’ve dated were black, and I find other races of men to be attractive and handsome and I make no apologies for it, as many bm don’t make apologies for their attraction to latinas and other non bw.
If you can’t respond in a mature manner without the insults, then do not respond to any more of my posts as I won’t respond to any of yours. Thank you.
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Shan said:
Menelik,
I know it to be true because I am a bw. Bw who prefer bm publicize it. Bw who prefer wm or who are open to dating non bm don’t publicize which makes it seem that all bw prefer bm when that is not the case.
menelik asks:
know what to be “true”? What have I said wasn’t apparently “true” that you were disputing?
Answer that question and I’ll answer yours!
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WarrenAZ says,
laromana,
I’d like to know how my remarks are disrespectful, violent, or abusive. Black women need to set their on standard of beauty, is that something you think would lead to the abuse and violence against Black Women? I highly doubt it.
laromana says,
WarrenAZ,
I NEVER said that YOUR remarks were disrespectful, violent, or abusive. I AGREED with your remarks and believe we feel the same about ANTI-BW BM (group of men I feel ARE violent, disrespectful, and abusive towards BW).
I think you’ve misread my comments.
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Shan says:
Menelik,
I know it to be true because I am a bw. Bw who prefer bm publicize it. Bw who prefer wm or who are open to dating non bm don’t publicize which makes it seem that all bw prefer bm when that is not the case.
laromana says,
Shan, thanks for pointing out this FACT about BW’s PREFERENCES.
It makes no sense to me that MANY ANTI-BW BM who are of NO to LOW VALUE to BW, feel that THEY SHOULD ONLY WANT THEM, while they’re FREE to LOVE ANYONE BUT BW.
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@ laromana,
once again I have absolutely no idea what the hell you’re talking about!
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http://checkerofreality.blogspot.com/2010/08/why-certain-black-women-hate-nerdy.html
And you ‘ladies’ talk about everyday inter-racial harassment?
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Dear Shan: your words are like they are written from my head! I would love to help you on your endeavour :)) I hope you have a blog or something, or email.
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@ warren az
your right work with what you have, i do, i take care of me
that guy talking on the video sounds stupid
you have polite, friendly, sistas. what club is he going to. he also make the other women seem easy. its all about your approach and he sounds arrogrant. being too friendly we don’t want to be harassed. a women have the right to be selective. a black women can see threw you. i guess we just tired. of the same old cornball. you have a few good black men but you have a whole lot of ass holes that always trying to disrespect us. so we picky. we have to feel you any women in here right mind ain’t going to be at the club showing her teeth to every men in there.so we ain’t going to smile because we don’t want you to come over. it’s you we are trying to chase away.
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@Warren AZ —
Black women need to set their on standard of beauty,
I AGREE. It’s ridiculous for ONLY light and white women to think they’re beautiful. But women are told over and over that ONLY men can decide which woman is beautiful and the majority of bm consistently put those black women who are lighter than the paper bag or white and Latina women on the beauty pedestal, so it’s easy to see why many black women feel the way they do.
Just notice what’s happening in this discussion thread where the black women are TOLD that we should be talking about other things, have other priorities, or told that we are “delusional” or “ill” when we notice and talk about certain things that impact black women negatively.
@ Truth Be Told–
It never seems to catch on with the colorism police that the light skin woman is CHOOSING a darker skinned man over potential lighter skin men. The ligher skin woman never gets credit for overcoming “media brainwashing” , instead she gets attacked for “stealing” dark skin men from dark skin women.
There are many major DARK black male stars in the media eye constantly, including Idris Elba, Denzel, Samuel Jackson, Morris Chestnut, Fifty Cent, Wesley Snipes, Eddie Murphy, Lil Wayne just to name a few who are dark-skinned, so the lighter woman is not “brainwashed” to like dark men if these dark men are presented as stars. Stars are considered highly desirable. So, it’s natural that the women would like them. In order for your statement to hold true, there would have to be barely any dark skinned male stars or these dark black men stars would have to be presented as undesirable the way black men used to be presented during the Jim Crow time as mindless buffoons.
@Menelik —
Shan & jorbia, both of you are somewhat delusional and ill.
You need to stop talking about YOURSELF.
I am here expressing myself and talking about my experiences and those of some other black women I’ve known and all of it is related to this topic. Yet, some of you men are obviously having a hard time reading this. It makes me wonder whether you’ve ever heard black women express their views HONESTLY. It sounds to me like you’ve just had your ego stroked a lot.
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that negro on that video really erkss me. he really rub my nerve, because alot of them seem to think that they doing black women a favor. like they expect everybody to jump on their d—. there is something call morales. dumbass
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@Menelik–
http://checkerofreality.blogspot.com/2010/08/why-certain-black-women-hate-nerdy.html
And you ‘ladies’ talk about everyday inter-racial harassment?
That article was written in 1996 which was 14 years ago.
Why don’t you also stick in article links to the two recent stories of how groups of black men violently beat white men who had black girlfriends. It took a whole group of black men to attack one white man in each of the cases. Also, my roommate told me about a case last year of a group of black marines who had killed a white man and his pretty black wife out in CA.
Instead of those black women writing black men’s names on a “wall of shame,” they should have been dating some of those fine white men on the campus. Writing someone’s name on a wall never sent anyone to the hospital or graveyard.
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jorbia said:
There are many major DARK black male stars in the media eye constantly, including Idris Elba, Denzel, Samuel Jackson, Morris Chestnut, Fifty Cent, Wesley Snipes, Eddie Murphy, Lil Wayne just to name a few who are dark-skinned, so the lighter woman is not “brainwashed” to like dark men if these dark men are presented as stars.
Stars are considered highly desirable. So, it’s natural that the women would like them.
Menelik said:
sweety, if you wish to reinforce your case then at least get the context right! “stars” are socially constructed entities, there is nothing “natural” about liking them as this very blog entry would suggest lol
The vast majority of people prefer those of their own race. You seem to have a problem with this fact. T’was why I suggest this problem can be located a little closer to home, darling!
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@ jorbia,
thing with guys is that we don’t generally complain about Black women harassing us when we date out (I don’t, by the way) because we don’t see dating out as taking out some private, perverse revenge against our Black mothers. We just do what we do, and to hell with the flack!
jorbia said:
That article was written in 1996 which was 14 years ago.
Menelik says:
you know what? I have no objections to anyone calling me the N-word; really I don’t. But I do take extreme exception to people insulting my intelligence (MENSA-level I’ll have you know!) so suggesting that something is irrelevant because it occurred sometime back is insulting my intelligence, sweety!
Your logic renders all of history irrelevant unless you sanction it! I guess you’ll be deny the consequences of slavery next!
Move on, please.
Thanks
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@ Menelik —
“stars” are socially constructed entities,
Tell that to all of those black men who drool over Halle Berry and Beyonce and women like that. Both of them along with many other women are “constructed entities.” A light or white woman is also a “constructed entity” which is my exactly my point. Some light women don’t want to be treated like construction and darker women shouldn’t be penalized because of the beauty construct that places lighter women on a pedestal.
I still can’t believe how so many black men had fits about Halle Berry’s ROLE (a construction) in Monster’s Ball which was a MOVIE–a totally construction from beginning to end. Just imagine that. They were having fits about a construction in a construction!
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@ Menelik Charles
You do know that incident at Brown happened over a decade ago?
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@ jorbia,
and what, pray, is your point?
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“It is a familiar lament of single African-American women: where are the “good” black men to marry?
A new study shows that more and more black men are marrying women of other races. In fact, more than 1 in 5 black men who wed (22 percent) married a nonblack woman in 2008. This compares with about 9 percent of black women, and represents a significant increase for black men — from 15.7 percent in 2000 and 7.9 percent in 1980. “
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@Menelik–
Your logic renders all of history irrelevant unless you sanction it!
You’re selecting history points to support your argument that black women are these terrible harassers of black men by citing ONE article. If I chose, I could find a lot more than ONE article link where black men were harassing or assaulting black women who were dating or marrying white men in 1996 and long before. Since they’re doing it now, we know they were doing it then. Are we going to turn this thread into an article citing contest of which gender harassed the other the most for dating out. I’m sure I would win.
my intelligence (MENSA-level)
Yikes! You’re scaring me. People who are really smart don’t need to go around telling people they’re smart. You are really funny!
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thing with guys is that we don’t generally complain about Black women harassing us when we date out (I don’t, by the way) because we don’t see dating out as taking out some private, perverse revenge against our Black mothers. We just do what we do, and to hell with the flack!
And black women who date white men are simply going out with a man they like and we’re not even thinking about “private, perverse revenge” against ANYONE, but a lot of black men are apparently threatened by black women with white men because they often verbally and sometimes PHYSICALLY harass us.
Women would be stupid to ignore the verbal and physical harassment and not complain about it. Women know that when they ignore verbal harassment from a man, it usually escalates to the physical. I am sure that black men who date white women don’t worry nearly as much or at all about black women assaulting them. The solution is for everyone to mind their own business. We are going to be with the man of our choice. Black men have to get used to that. Now go tell other black men that.
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jorbia said:
You’re selecting history points to support your argument that black women are these terrible harassers of black men by citing ONE article.
Menelik asks:
how many articles, Youtube videos and anecdotal evidence do you want, women? To you this isn’t a moral issues at all but a point-scoring exercise in which you attempt to paint Black men in general as harasser of Black women in relationships with white males!
the history of your country is littered with dead Black men whose only crime was to look in the direction of a white woman. if you want an historical context to the very subject of which you speak then right away you got one!
Instead: silence!
The contemporary also has Black women in countless magazine and newspaper articles; talk shows and news special complaining about Black men’s alleged obssession with white women.
To this you: nothing!
Instead you attempt to paint Black women as these much sought after, feminine cuties whom white men are invading the African-American community to woo and wed. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Moreover, the few ignorant Black men who harass Black women in unions with white men are held up as representative of MOST Black men. Again: nothing could be further from the truth.
First you insinuate that most Black men prefer white women (another astonishing lie!) and now you imply the same Black men are organising themselves into lynch mobs to prevent you from riding off into the sunset with some white boy (you do like to reach, don’t you?). Where does it end, woman?
it is Black men who are constantly being PUBLICALLY shamed into sticking with Black women NOT the other way around!
Black men do not occupy the position of Asian men who watch the majority of their women reject them for mainly white males. This status (at least in many Black women’s fevered imaginations) is held exclusively by Black women in the Black community where white, Latino and bi-racial women are concerned.
Acknowledge it, sweety, and then get over it!
Menelik Charles
London UK
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Wow this thread has taken a whole new turn.
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yeah, “a whole new turn”:
http://blackmenconfrontingthelies.blogspot.com/2010/11/even-president-has-to-take-fault.html
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@Aiyo
No lie lol. It’s bananas!
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@Menelik Charles
I don’t understand how that link relates to the orignal post.
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@ Aiyo,
there are many comments and links you’ve curiously by-passed that you could ask the same question of. Why don’t you?
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Menelik Charles
I have pointed in my previous comments how people’s comments have gone way off topic and when I made my recent one I was talking about in general not just you, but then you quoted me and then posted your link and then I wrote what I wrote.
Oh well.
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Yes Aiyo, I quoted you asking me this specific question:
@Menelik Charles
“I don’t understand how that link relates to the orignal post”.
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SG, ANTI-BW BM AREN’T JUST “GIVING THEIR OPINION”. WE WOULDN’T BE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION IF THAT WAS ALL THERE WAS TO IT.
SEVERAL BW HAVE ALREADY MENTIONED HOW ANTI-BW BM WILL TRY TO “DISRESPECT/INTIMIDATE” THEM WHEN THEY’RE OUT WITH NON-BM OR THINK THEY HAVE THE “RIGHT” TO DICTATE WHO BW SHOULD/SHOULDN’T DATE. THAT’S WHAT WE’RE TALKING ABOUT SG, AND I’VE GOT NEWS FOR YOU, BW DON’T OWE ANTI-BW BM MEN ANYTHING.
WE CAN LIVE OUR LIVES ANY WAY WE WANT WITHOUT COWTOWING TO ANTI-BW BM OR ANYONE ELSE. GET IT?!
@Laromana, is there a particular reason that you type so much in CAPITALS? It’s rather annoying and doesn’t really help any point you’re trying to make. Much the opposite actually.
My point stands. Men and women of every race will give advice to, criticize, manipulate, try to guilt, shame or occasionally even intimidate the other gender into doing what they want. This is never going to change.
To pretend that this behavior is somehow unique to black men is bigotry.
If they could get away with it every racial/gender combination would likely maximize their own choices while restricting those of the opposite gender. Just human nature.
You will not find anything that I’ve written that suggests that Black women owe Black men anything. You will find suggestions galore by others that Black men owe Black women something. But I guess that’s okay with you. Hmmm.
You could also find stories of black men or white women who have been harassed by citizens or worse, by agents of the state when they are out and about. It goes with the territory. But again, somehow I doubt those stories would mean very much to you.
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Shady_Grady
@Laromana,
you could…find stories of black men or white women who have been harassed by citizens or worse, by agents of the state when they are out and about. It goes with the territory. But again, somehow I doubt those stories would mean very much to you.
Menelik says:
Bro there aint nothing shady about you; you’re spot on!
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Jorbia wrote
I AGREE. It’s ridiculous for ONLY light and white women to think they’re beautiful. But women are told over and over that ONLY men can decide which woman is beautiful and the majority of bm consistently put those black women who are lighter than the paper bag or white and Latina women on the beauty pedestal, so it’s easy to see why many black women feel the way they do.
Where did all the dark skin black men come from then?
I mean people inherit complexion from both parents , no?
So somebody is marrying/dating/reproducing with dark skin black women. Hint: It’s not by and large white men, Latin men, Asian men or Hispanic men.
This is about some Black women’s lack of self-esteem more than anything else. The only solution, as has been said over and over again is to create, produce and consume media directed at black people.
People would fall out laughing at a Black man that spent all day complaining that he wasn’t the apple of some white woman’s eye and then blamed black women for that. If other black men chimed in with “Well I hear good things about Hungary” or “Try Germany, they love brothers over there” that would just put into crystal clarity what the real problem was.
It is not something that can be laid at the feet of black men that on average white American men don’t want to marry black women and that white American women don’t want to model themselves after black women.
People just need to deal with this and stop casting blame.
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Thx, MC..
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My point is that the ones of you black men who do any of this harassing need to grow up and stop having tantrums when black women talk about what WE want to talk about anywhere we want to talk about it, decide on OUR priorities as we see fit, or go out with the men we want to be with when we get ready. Accept it and get over yourselves! You need to accept that every black woman is not interested in a black man, or not exclusively, though some may pretend they are. Some black women are not interested in ego-stroking you. Just go and be with whichever women who are willing to do any of that and be grateful. Don’t concern yourselves with the men who want or don’t want to be with us. It’s NOT your business.
The bottom line is that there is nothing you can do to stop us. You do not own us and you don’t have the power to control us. The harassment, attempts to silence us, stalking us, calling us names (“ill” “delusional”) or other choice terms for having our own opinions simply proves to everyone what we’re saying, that the ones of you do this are HARASSERS who are trying to browbeat us into silence or into kissing up to you.
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I scrolled up to see why this topic has devolved to interracial dating again, and it was Obsidian who brought it up, (Jill Scott anti bm dating interracially) in response to my comment about how black men are attracted to my Euro looks. My comment was specifically related to this thread topic of the “white beauty construct.”
Some of the black men here need to ask themselves why it is that they keep finding a way to take the topic back to interracial dating. 🙂
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@ Jorbia and Shan,
Do you two have email addresses? I want to send something to you.
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Natasha:
If they give me their permission, I can send you their email addresses. That way they do not have to post them here for the whole world to see.
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@ abagond
Thanks, that would be great. I was hoping you could send them if they agreed.
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Agabond, it’s fine with me to send my e-mail. Tks.
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Whoa. And I thought finnish men and women have a complicated relationship…
But yeah, anybody should be allowed to date anyone they please without any pressure or aggression from ANY group.
I suppose here the more volatile relationship is that of a BM/WW. BW/WM relationship probably gets only envious looks from other finnish males, lol. Well, from me, at least 😉
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Jorbia,
Whew, you really do need to get a grip. Replies below:
J: My point is that the ones of you black men who do any of this harassing need to grow up and stop having tantrums when black women talk about what WE want to talk about anywhere we want to talk about it, decide on OUR priorities as we see fit, or go out with the men we want to be with when we get ready. Accept it and get over yourselves! You need to accept that every black woman is not interested in a black man, or not exclusively, though some may pretend they are. Some black women are not interested in ego-stroking you. Just go and be with whichever women who are willing to do any of that and be grateful. Don’t concern yourselves with the men who want or don’t want to be with us. It’s NOT your business.
O: I don’t recall myself, Shady Grady or any other self-described Black Man, which includes the owner of this forum, saying otherwise. None of us have any problem in the least with whomever Black Women choose to go out with, marry, etc. Moreover, that was never the topic of discussion to begin with; the topic was whether White Women were seen as beautiful and the reasons for it. Personally, I couldn’t care one way or another, but what I do care about is Black Women wasting their time on stuff that doesn’t mean anything at the end of the day. As SG said to you several times now like a broken record, Black Women need to seek out those media outlets that supports them. One of the biggest examples of this is Oprah Winfrey, the Woman now has her own channel for God’s sakes. One would think that would be something to be proud of, along with the major successes of Condoleeza Rice, or Mae Jemison, or Essence magazine, and so on. Yet, Jorbia and others of her ilk continue to whine and moan about nonexistant crap like two instances of BW/Wm couples being whupped up on, or why White media companies don’t focus on Black Women who have noticeably darker features (forgetting all about how the very same White Media fawned over the Sista who starred in the film Precious and how she got a cover shot on I think it was Vogue or Elle? One of those high powered fashion mags…sheesh). Jorbia’s very fair skinned by her own admission and from what I can infer rather young as well, which shows. I say she’s got a lot of internal turmoil about all of these issues that she’s using this discussion to work out, otherwise she wouldn’t be going on and on and on about. regardless as to how much actual evidence I or Sg or anyone else shows her, she insists on tilting at windmills. *shrugs* Jorbia, get therapy, no one’s really all that interested in hearing you work out your deeply rooted psychosocial familial problems.
J: The bottom line is that there is nothing you can do to stop us. You do not own us and you don’t have the power to control us. The harassment, attempts to silence us, stalking us, calling us names (“ill” “delusional”) or other choice terms for having our own opinions simply proves to everyone what we’re saying, that the ones of you do this are HARASSERS who are trying to browbeat us into silence or into kissing up to you.
O: Again, name the Black Men bloggers who have been known to have Black Women bloggers shut down or otherwise silenced? I’ll wait. Meanwhile, I can give you names of the reverse. If Black Women are as strong and independent as they claim, why the need to even bring such things up at all? simply forge ahead and do your thang Sista! *LMAO*
J: I scrolled up to see why this topic has devolved to interracial dating again, and it was Obsidian who brought it up, (Jill Scott anti bm dating interracially) in response to my comment about how black men are attracted to my Euro looks. My comment was specifically related to this thread topic of the “white beauty construct.”
O: Nonesense girl, my very first post on this thread had nothing to do with IR dating or Jill Scott at all, and what I said about the latter was in direct response to this notion that Black Men everywhere are so against the relatively few Black Women who have White mates. I can prove that this is not so, in any number of ways. One of them was by way of Jill Scott, who just goes to show that if it’s anything, its Black Women who are most against IR dating and the like. Save The Last Dance, anyone? 😉
Following my comments to you is the very fist comment I made in this thread. Please review it.
J: Some of the black men here need to ask themselves why it is that they keep finding a way to take the topic back to interracial dating.
O: I don’t know, I’m not one of those Black Men, though i agree, it is an interesting question…
theobsidianfiles
Nov 10, 2010
I’m with Chuck on this one – say what you will about him, but at least he’s offered some scientific evidence to back up his claims. If you disagree, it seems to me the best way to do so would be by presenting countervailing scientific evidence, and to date none of those who take issue with what he saidd have done so. Not a convincing counter argument, does this make, in my view.
Moreover, I think all the kneejerk reactions are unnecessary. Why?
Because, think about this, and Chuck hinted at this in one of his last comments above – would this even be a matter of debate if, say, the issue was about shorter Men versus taller Men, or in Chuck’s case, Men who have red hair versus Men who have black hair? It is a simple matter of observation who Women, accross the board, culture and time eras, tend to prefer as mates if and when they can choose, which is most of the time. Males display, Females choose, yes? If that’s true, then it is also true that most Women, most of the time, would choose a taller Man over a shorter one; and a Man who doesn’t have red hair over one who does.
These two situations are undoubtedly genetic in origin – although one can be more readily addressed than the other, that isn’t the point. Both have genetic roots, and Women make no bones about their hardwired preferences either – if anyone doubts this, all they need do is go to the more popular online websites like OKCupid, Match.com, or eHarmony, and see for yourself.
Yet, it is hard to see Abagond, or anyone else for that matter, putting up for real debate and discussion, a post entitled “Are Tall/Other Than Red-Haired Men Handsome, Or Is It Society That Makes Them Seem So?”. Indeed, many of the very same female voices who are all up in arms right now, would turn right around and have no qualms rejecting, out of hand, guys who are well under 5’6″ and/or who look like Howdy Doody. But these are conditions these Men cannot help – they were born that way, just like Serena Williams was born the way she was, or Jennifer Hudson. Yes, both can lose weight, etc. But neither are going to be percieved in the same way that say, Carrie Prejean is. the latter remains the American and more broader ideal of what beautiful and feminine is; the former two examples, not so much.
Why this is such a huge sticking point for so many Sistas, I don’t get. After all, Black Women have made the self-mutilation practice that is the haircare business a multi-billion per year endeavor. If Black Women enmasse didn’t care about this topic so much, so many of them wouldn’t be doing that, they’d let their hair grow into more natural patterns for their genetic makeup. But they don’t. Which tells me, that there’s a there, there.
So many short Men and/or red-haired Men face all manner of documented discrimination all the time, on the job and off, and this includes rank discrimination and bigotry from Women too – yet, they soldier on and go about the business of living their lives. Why can’t Black Women just do the same?
Comments?
Holla back
O.
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Obsidian, I scanned your “book” above but simply won’t respond to you because you’re once again trying to hijack the thread to harass black women. Despite my youth, I’ll be the more mature person here. 🙂
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this thread is funny
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@Obsidian
I still think that this short, red haired men is not an issue. Sounds more like a red herring to me…
You can’t possibly compare BW with short men?? That is insane. I’d say that there is a biological preference for tall men, but I don’t think there is a biological, but societal/learned preference for women of certain complexions.
Even as an outsider, I feel that YOU are the local Don Quixote, not jorbia or any other BW posting here.
And would it be possible to please, PLEASE make your posts A LOT shorter? Like those red-haired dudes?
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@Hannu L —
BW/WM relationship probably gets only envious looks from other finnish males, lol. Well, from me, at least 😉
I don’t know if you mentioned how you managed to escape being sucked in by the notion of the overwhelming beauty of white women?
My view is that some white women AND some black women are beautiful but it has nothing to do with complexion IMO. A man’s complexion alone definitely doesn’t attract or repel me. I’ve been strongly attracted to white men and black men.
Question: From your conversations with other European guys, how do you think the typical white man who appreciates black women feels about black women’s varied complexions: chocolate-dark, Cinnamon-brown, white-light (like Mariah Carey)?
I ask this because a lot us black women in this part of the world cannot imagine how our beauty would be viewed if it weren’t almost totally viewed through the Hollywood lens or American society/media.
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Hannu,
It would behoove you to read that which is written, so that you might at least give the appearnce of sounding informed? There you go. 😉
O.
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@jorbia
I didn’t get sucked in because of the homogenity of Finns. Everybody looks pretty much the same. And women (as well as men) look AVERAGE. It makes sense, not just statistically, but instinctively as well. When I personally started seeing MTV (late 80’s-early 90’s) I fell in love with house (and black music in general) and since many lead vocalists were beautiful black women, me and my friends thought that those black women were HOT! I’ve always been attracted to “exotic” women, but unfortunately they were/are very scarce. 😦
I’ve heard that a lot of European guys like darker, african-looking black women. I have no personal evidence of this, because frankly, the complexion of the woman never enters the discussion between me and my friends. Women are either hot or not.
I hadn’t even thought about that before entering this blog. But after giving it some thought (and I’ve dated a bi-racial light and a Nigerian VERY black woman) and I still don’t know. A woman is more than the sum of her parts. Interestingly, I never used to pay any attention to ( finnish) woman’s hair: whatever looked good on her, was fine by me. In the case of black women, I think I prefer natural hair. Once in a nightclub in Helsinki I saw this bi-racial (my assumption, not sure) ordering drinks next to me wearing this HUGE afro. And I thought she looked GORGEOUS! Very apologetic and comfortable with herself.
I’d also like to state that I don’t have anything against relaxed hair, but I think I prefer “au naturel”.
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@Obsidian
I always appreciate poorly-hidden insults! 😀
Maybe I’ll read your posts again, but I have to admit that I do often read only bits of them, because, more often that not, your position of topics discussed is well established here. Honestly, long posts make you a disservice. But that’s the way it goes, it often sounds like people with long posts only try to convince themselves.
Peace.
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@Hannu L–
A woman is more than the sum of her parts.
Definitely. It’s so refreshing to hear such a balanced view.
Interestingly, I never used to pay any attention to ( finnish) woman’s hair: whatever looked good on her, was fine by me. In the case of black women, I think I prefer natural hair.
Yes, black women’s natural hair is beautiful. If more black women were around men who appreciated their natural hair and complimented them about it, more black women would get rid of the perms.
Thanks!
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@jorbia
Agree on the hair issue. Why wouldn’t black women celebrate a feature that is unique to them? You can still play with it, just check out African hairstyles. Anyways, from what I’ve heard, natural hair is preferred here. If black men don’t dig it, it’s their loss!
I think it has a lot to do with what kind of women are preferred in Europe overall: less make-up, less hairspray, more natural looks with very light make-up ( AND independent, liberated, freet hinking, equal…). Nothing turns me off more than a totally over-painted WW from US with silicone boobs, botox lips and a “big hair”. Belchh!
A suggestion to (black or other) women traveling to Europe: go for more natural looks. Some of the hottest black women in Europe are french. Oh-la-laa! Keep your posture and your head up high, men love it over here!
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Society doesn’t determine beauty. Beauty is determined by the individual. For every perfect 10 hottie, there are 10 guys who don’t think she is all that. If you can’t escape society’s grip on you then that is your problem. Not society’s. Be man or woman enough to find beauty in what you feel is beautiful and not base your ideals on what society says you should like. This is a childish post. Blame society for something that you can control but choose not to.
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Just an anecdote about an interracial relationship I encountered… when this bi-racial girl came to see me, she gave me a souvenir like this: (which was returned with lots of kisses by me, natch! :D)
And the history of said candy goes like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chocolate-coated_marshmallow_treats
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@Obsidian
I don’t have hooves, but horns. I wear ballerina shoes. 😉
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jorbia said:
You’re selecting history points to support your argument that black women are these terrible harassers of black men by citing ONE article.
Menelik asks:
how many articles, Youtube videos and anecdotal evidence do you want, women? To you this isn’t a moral issues at all but a point-scoring exercise in which you attempt to paint Black men in general as harasser of Black women in relationships with white males!
the history of your country is littered with dead Black men whose only crime was to look in the direction of a white woman. if you want an historical context to the very subject of which you speak then right away you got one!
Instead: silence!
The contemporary also has Black women in countless magazine and newspaper articles; talk shows and news special complaining about Black men’s alleged obssession with white women.
To this you say: nothing!
Instead you attempt to paint Black women as these much sought after, feminine cuties whom white men are invading the African-American community to woo and wed. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Moreover, the few ignorant Black men who harass Black women in unions with white men are held up as representative of MOST Black men. Again: nothing could be further from the truth.
First you insinuate that most Black men prefer white women (another astonishing lie!) and now you imply the same Black men are organising themselves into lynch mobs to prevent you from riding off into the sunset with some white boy (you do like to reach, don’t you?). Where does it end, woman?
It is Black men who are constantly being PUBLICALLY shamed (via both the white and Black media) into sticking with Black women NOT the other way around!
Black men do not occupy the position of Asian men who watch the majority of their women reject them for mainly white males. This status (at least in many Black women’s fevered imaginations) is held exclusively by Black women in the Black community where white, Latino and bi-racial women are concerned.
Acknowledge it, sweety, and then get over it!
Menelik Charles
London UK
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@Hannu L–
Why wouldn’t black women celebrate a feature that is unique to them?
Yes! I don’t perm my hair, but I would love to just wear my hair in it’s natural state. Instead, I blow it out so that I can look like a clone American college girl. 🙂 Cowardly, I know. It doesn’t matter whether I’m around whites or blacks, I think they both prefer my hair hanging down.
You can still play with it, just check out African hairstyles.
Yes, black women can do all kinds of things with their natural hair because in its natural state, most of our hair has a lot of natural body.
Anyways, from what I’ve heard, natural hair is preferred here. If black men don’t dig it, it’s their loss!
Thanks, I hope black women are taking notes. If only more black women could spend more time around men who appreciate us as we naturally are. I get tired of spending my precious time to get hair that blows in the wind like the CLAIROL girl’s.
Off to work . . .
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“I didn’t get sucked in because of the homogenity of Finns. Everybody looks pretty much the same. And women (as well as men) look AVERAGE.”
Don’t some of them look sort-of-Asian, like Bjork?
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jorbia said:
Obsidian, I scanned your “book” above but simply won’t respond to you because you’re once again trying to hijack the thread to harass black women. Despite my youth, I’ll be the more mature person here.
Menelik says:
isn’t it strange than when women and men on here attack Bro Obsidian they consider it defending themselves and their right to date out etc (not once has the Bro ever attacked such a right but has simply told certain folks on here to stop complaining and do as you damned well please!).
But when the Brother uses direct quotes in order to explicitly show the fallacy of their position (and the baseless nature of their attacks upon him) it is he who is accused of harassment, sexism and being anti-inter-racial relationships (strangely enough Bro Obsidian has not once accused his harassers of being anti-Black-on-Black relationships…which they appear to be via their collectively hostility towards Black men).
Bro Obsidian has consistently asked that the women on here stop complaining about…wait for it, being harassed by the white mass media, for example, and get on with the business of living their own lives free from pointless concerns.
That is all.
Menelik Charles
London UK
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@FG
Hm, um…Björk is Icelandic. I have a (finnish) friend who spent some time in Reykjavik, and told me that most women, contrary to the image, looked more like dark-haired gnomes instead of gorgeous, blond Valkyries…???
So, it’s all relative. Yes, we have a lot of blonds, but most of them who “perceive” themselves as blondes, dye their heir BLONDER than what they actually are! Most of them are more like “dirty blondes” or “light brunettes” So it’s a really complicated issue here as well. Then again, there are a lot of women who dye their hair BLACK to match up with the image of a hardcore HEAVY METAl fan (very popular in Finland). And by the way, my sister has slightly slanted eyes -A MONGREL? GASP! In a relationship with a woman as well, might I add…
You might start to understand why I feel the way I feel. LET LOVE RULE! It really is a very complex issue here in Scandinavia as well. Because most women here can’t LIVE UP to the image of ULTIMATE FEMININITY (?) without artificial help.
It all depends on the IMAGE you want to project. Some people are comfortable the way they are, some feel like a little tuning is in order. It has a lot to do with WHO they want to attract.
Self esteem is what I’m talking about. And the lack of it is very unappealing.
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Yea, I know Bjork is Icelandic, but I just heard that some Scandinavians in general have what are regarded as “Asian” features. Not that they are necessarily related to Asians, but that they have experienced similar environmental conditions leading to the development of similar appearance over time.
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@FG
Hm, interesting… there are some features in Finns that might look like “Asian”. There’s a lot of debate among Finns about our ancestry. Because, of course, “asian” ancestry would make us “less European” and thus, less desirable/intelligent/etc, etc…so it has more to do with our self esteem than anything else. So yes, some Finns do have Asian features, because some of our genes come from there. Ergo, there is no PURE RACE. We are all connected in a sliding scale.
That’s the point I’m trying to make: we’re all equal, but some features are seen as more desirable than others only because we have the power to impose it. Because Europeans and their offspring (americans) have a cultural and economic stranglehold on the rest of the world and have the ability to spread our ideals across the globe. Those in power tend to do so. I have little doubt in my mind that if the power was held by blacks or asians, they would impose their own ideals.
We’re all selfish animals.
Hey, what do you know? It’s not that easy to make a short post…
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“There’s a lot of debate among Finns about our ancestry. Because, of course, “asian” ancestry would make us “less European” and thus, less desirable/intelligent/etc, etc…”
Not according to “HBD”ers. Actually the reverse 😉
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And, to clarify, I studied in a school of arts and crafts, and you people are very well aware of the notorious liberalism among “artistic” people…
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I didn’t know that European nationalities were concerned about how “white” they are perceived. I always thought that was more of a New World thing. The more I read about Europe, the more it seems that racial issues are not so different from what they are in the US, Brazil, Mexico, etc.
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@FG
Ah, well, nobody in their right mind gives a s**t what those delirious dudes & dames think. I think they have been debunked a long time ago, but they themselves are the only ones who DON’T GET IT. They’re like creationists.
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@FG
I think Finland is a bit of a special case. First we were invaded by Swedes for 800 years, then by Russians for the next 100 years. So Finns have traditionally viewed them selves less Europeans than our continental or Scandinavian counterparts. Finns have a much, much lower self-esteem compared to Swedes (or at least used to, thanks to Nokia). Besides, Europe is not a single entity, it consists of myriads of different cultures, habits and languages. It never was “one”.
Europe isn’t that much different from US: the most “hideous” threat a lot of Europeans think that they are facing is –
IMMIGRATION!!!!
Good god! There are people of different ethnicity, culture and religion, who try to take all our women, jobs AND social security! It is only natural that those with less are moving to more prosperious regions
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Hannu L says,
@Obsidian
-I still think that this short, red haired men is not an issue. Sounds more like a red herring to me…
-You can’t possibly compare BW with short men?? That is insane. I’d say that there is a biological preference for tall men, but I don’t think there is a biological, but societal/learned preference for women of certain complexions.
-Even as an outsider, I feel that YOU are the local Don Quixote, not jorbia or any other BW posting here.
-And would it be possible to please, PLEASE make your posts A LOT shorter? Like those red-haired dudes?
laromana says,
Hannu L, thanks for challenging one of the INTRANSIGENT, ANTI-BW DERAILERS on this post. I appreciate all of your PRO-BW comments.
It’s SAD to see CERTAIN ANTI-BW BM GO OUT of THEIR WAY to EITHER ATTACK BW on this blog/SERIOUS ISSUES THAT AFFECT BW or INVENT IRRELEVANT TOPICS that CONTRIBUTE NOTHING to the IMPORTANT DISCUSSION AT HAND.
B says,
Society doesn’t determine beauty. Beauty is determined by the individual. For every perfect 10 hottie, there are 10 guys who don’t think she is all that. If you can’t escape society’s grip on you then that is your problem. Not society’s. Be man or woman enough to find beauty in what you feel is beautiful and not base your ideals on what society says you should like. This is a childish post. Blame society for something that you can control but choose not to.
laromana says,
This is a perfect example of an individual who is COMPLETELY OUT OF TOUCH WITH FACTS/HOW THINGS WORK in the REAL WORLD.
To hear him tell it ANTI-BW RACISM was invented by the women who have HISTORICALLY had their HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMINININTY ATTACKED by EVERYONE in American society/culture. What UTTER NONSENSE.
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@hannu; I have to disagree with you on this selfesteem thing. I think its a myth generated by the elite to keep us in our place. It is like our history, which is swetisist to the core. Written by the conquerers. One example: they denied the existence of the Vanajankaupunki and claimed that it was a myth. Well, guess what? Yeah, they found it right across the Hämeenlinna castle. And it did have stonewalls too :D!
If we talk about our neighbours, heres couple really funny things: In Sweden there has always been a finnish population above the Uppsala region. Just don’t ask swedes, because they get very upset by this.
The present day russian people, the so-called Big Russian population (iso venäläinen kantaväestö) is actually a mix between southern slavic tribes and the fenno-ugrig people of that region. This happened during the migration of some slavic tribes around 600 or so.
Also, don’t tell this to the swedes or russians, but they actually found the DNA of Rurik, the “eatern vikinbg” who founded Russia. And guess what? Right, he was not a swede nor a russian. His genes are finnish 😀 Real story, Hannu! The results were published in the Net. I forgot where it was.
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@laromana
Thanks. It really seems that you need all the support you need. I mean, after all, you’d think that BM would be your first and foremost supporters, but instead they seem to be more concerned with “come-uppance.”
I mean, personally, even though I’m a white caucasian male, I’ve met some prejudice: being a tall, bald, fairly robust, blue-eyed guy, I’m often labeled as a skinh**d or a n***i or just generally a bigot. I doesn’t feel nice. Not nice at all.
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@sam
I agree with you, the lower esteem of Finns in general has been forced upon us. People believe what they are being told by the elite. Not enough people have challenged this notion.
And the whole Russian empire was founded by swedes/ruotsi/rus, hence the “Russian” empire. But people tend to forget all the influences of other cultures and peoples just to stress the importance of their own kind.
But there is no such thing as “ORIGINAL RACE” OR “CULTURE”. We all have been influenced by other peoples.
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Hmmm … I didn’t know that the Scandinavians had their own pecking order. This is interesting. I guess ethnicity/identity is somewhat problematic everywhere!
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Very apologetic and comfortable with herself.
I of course meant UNapologetic.
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“Hm, um…Björk is Icelandic. I have a (finnish) friend who spent some time in Reykjavik, and told me that most women, contrary to the image, looked more like dark-haired gnomes instead of gorgeous, blond Valkyries…???”
It’s all good. I go for the dark-haired gnome types anyway. LOL.
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Hannu L says,
@laromana
Thanks. It really seems that you need all the support you need. I mean, after all, you’d think that BM would be your first and foremost supporters, but instead they seem to be more concerned with “come-uppance.”
I mean, personally, even though I’m a white caucasian male, I’ve met some prejudice: being a tall, bald, fairly robust, blue-eyed guy, I’m often labeled as a skinh**d or a n***i or just generally a bigot. I doesn’t feel nice. Not nice at all.
laromana says,
You’re welcome, Hannu L. BW need all the support we can get and MAYBE SOMEDAY ALL BM will find a way to SUPPORT THEIR SAME RACE WOMEN (like MOST NON-BM DO WITH THEIR SAME RACE WOMEN).
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Why is my comment in moderation?
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Laromana,
I read your commnet and I agree that I misread it. Fair enough. But if the topic is about the perception of white beauty I’d like to focus on that if you don’t mind.
Jorbia,
Black American Women will continue to be marginalized in the realm of beauty for as long as they allow it. Since Black American Beauty hasn’t been defined it’s ripe for development, marketing, and almost every aspect of industry in this nation. BAW would be fools to wait on other races, Black American Men, or even other BAW to hinder the potential for such a cultural shift.
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One more thing. The “Fro Hawk” on a Black Woman is such a perfect example of a style only woman with that texture can wear and that THEY decided to wear with no apologies.
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WarrenAZ says,
Laromana,
I read your commnet and I agree that I misread it. Fair enough. But if the topic is about the perception of white beauty I’d like to focus on that if you don’t mind.
laromana says,
I’m glad that’s cleared up and feel free to focus on what you want.
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@Warren AZ–
The “Fro Hawk” on a Black Woman is such a perfect example of a style only woman with that texture can wear and that THEY decided to wear with no apologies.
I agree completely with everything you said. You are an “outside the box” thinker. Yes! The “Fro Hawk” is a blazing style, but a lot of BAW would not wear that because a lot of BAM would NOT like it. The vast majority of BAM love hair that hangs down and blows in the wind. Since a lot of BAW only go with BAM, those that do are held captive by what the men like.
I know that some may want BAW to be trailblazers, but when they do that “with no apology” as you say, then people consider them to be “aggressive” or “man”nish, and men don’t like them romantically. A lot of BAM and others want the docile, submissive, meek type woman. I love your idea, but I don’t think it’s fair to push BAW to be more brazen and unapologetic because they end up alone. Who’s got their back? Which men are going to step out there and love and protect that bold, unapologetic BAW?
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Sometimes there is absolutely nothing finer than a beautiful, “proud” woman walking down the street with the attitude of “I’m gorgeous and I don’t care what the f**k YOU think”.
Hubba-hubba!
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Sometimes there is absolutely nothing finer than a beautiful, “proud” woman walking down the street with the attitude of “I’m gorgeous and I don’t care what the f**k YOU think”.
Hubba-hubba!
It’s really a double-bind for BAW. A lot of BAW do have that F-YOU attitude. They have to have it when they step out for work or school in order to survive on the mean streets on any given day, to be left alone by disrespectful men. These women are labeled as “angry black women” or “b$%ches.” Men may want to look at some of them and admire them from a distance, but nicer, refined men who have good intentions don’t tend to approach them.
Where-Oh where are the nicer, refined men? Calling all nicer, refined men. We black women are interested in you. 🙂
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Sounds like a paradox. BW are putting “shields up” to block the unwanted men, but only those unwanted men “dare” to approach those women!
You’re damned if you do, damned if you don’t! 😀
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Exactly, Hannu. That’s the double bind.
I think men in this society have been in a sense “trained” to only go so far in public with a white woman or even with a woman like me. I get more respect in public from even the thuggy or vagrant men on the street than the darker black women I know. This is another aspect of “white women are more beautiful.”
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You americans are nuts! 😀
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in this society, i’ll never understand why “beauty,” is equated with value. Like everytime a ww goes missing they always gotta say thing such as ” a beautiful young blond woman,” is missing in the mountains today. Like it makes her more valuable that she’s beautiful and blond? If she were ugly would that make the situation any less tragic?
That is why beauty affect bw so badly if we’re not considered beautiful in this society then we’re not seen as valuable that is the problem.
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jorbia says,
-A lot of BAM and others want the docile, submissive, meek type woman. I love your idea, but I don’t think it’s fair to push BAW to be more brazen and unapologetic because they end up alone. Who’s got their back? Which men are going to step out there and love and protect that bold, unapologetic BAW?
-Exactly, Hannu. That’s the double bind.
I think men in this society have been in a sense “trained” to only go so far in public with a white woman or even with a woman like me. I get more respect in public from even the thuggy or vagrant men on the street than the darker black women I know. This is another aspect of “white women are more beautiful.”
-It’s really a double-bind for BAW. A lot of BAW do have that F-YOU attitude. They have to have it when they step out for work or school in order to survive on the mean streets on any given day, to be left alone by disrespectful men. These women are labeled as “angry black women” or “b$%ches.” Men may want to look at some of them and admire them from a distance, but nicer, refined men who have good intentions don’t tend to approach them.
Where-Oh where are the nicer, refined men? Calling all nicer, refined men. We black women are interested in you.
peanut says,
peanut
in this society, i’ll never understand why “beauty,” is equated with value. Like everytime a ww goes missing they always gotta say thing such as ” a beautiful young blond woman,” is missing in the mountains today. Like it makes her more valuable that she’s beautiful and blond? If she were ugly would that make the situation any less tragic?
That is why beauty affect bw so badly if we’re not considered beautiful in this society then we’re not seen as valuable that is the problem.
laromana says,
jorbia and peanut, thanks for your EXCELLENT OBESERVATIONS regarding the way ANTI-BW RACISM affects how BW are treated in American culture/media.
EVERYONE NEEDS TO UNDERSTAND that BW ARE NOT TO BLAME for the UNFAIR, NEGATIVE, MISPERCEPTIONS of us in American society/media.
The way BW are treated in America will CHANGE FOR THE BETTER when ANTI-BW RACISM IS DESTROYED/EVERYONE LEARNS to RESPECT the HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY of BW and TREAT THEM with FAIRNESS/CONSIDERATION (like they treat NON-BW).
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@Peanut–
in this society, i’ll never understand why “beauty,” is equated with value.
Let’s take race out of this for a second. Probably a lot of men would never admit it, but I think most men think that a more beautiful woman of any race is a MORE valuable human being than a woman who is unattractive.
When race is in it, this still holds. There’ve been experiments that studied the importance of attractiveness where they placed a slim, young blond woman at the side of the road standing by her broken down car and they observed to see how many people would try to help her versus a non-blond, chubby, frumpy looking white woman. The vast majority of men either offered to help or stopped to help the slim blond and mostly ignored the frumpy woman.
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@Laromana–
The way BW are treated in America will CHANGE FOR THE BETTER when ANTI-BW RACISM IS DESTROYED/EVERYONE LEARNS to RESPECT the HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY of BW and TREAT THEM with FAIRNESS/CONSIDERATION (like they treat NON-BW).
I think that the majority of white men and white women value white girls and women. This is the reason white women are protected and search parties form when a white girl or woman goes missing.
Also, I was watching some videos about white women and street harassment from men and then I watched videos about black women and street harassment. Of course, black women received tons more harassment. The question is why. Is it because black women are considered more beautiful? I don’t think so. I believe it’s because most of the street harassers know that there will be much more severe repercussions from white men for harassing white women.
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@ jorbia
I don’t perm my hair, but I would love to just wear my hair in it’s natural state. Instead, I blow it out so that I can look like a clone American college girl. Cowardly, I know. It doesn’t matter whether I’m around whites or blacks, I think they both prefer my hair hanging down.
me and my cousin do the same no perm. we just go to the dominicans and let them blow it out . i think alot of black women should get up on this. because your hair look more full this way. i don’t think that i’m trying to be accepted because i also wear it nappy, twist, braided, or a curly weave sometimes at the top. i just love the diversity of black hair. sometimes i feel like i want to make it lock, but because i love to change so much. it wouldn’t be for me. i love to enhance my beauty in different ways. i’ll wear a wig too it depends on how i feel. but i also show the world that i love me too. i love my hair and i love my cocoa complextion.
alot of black women like to hold on to damage hair that they put in a pony tail a nice cut every now on then is good. a short cut or a low cut can be very sexy. i know that society is in love with hair, but love your main and work with what you have give your hair some tlc.
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@ jorbia
Also, I was watching some videos about white women and street harassment from men and then I watched videos about black women and street harassment. Of course, black women received tons more harassment. The question is why. Is it because black women are considered more beautiful? I don’t think so. I believe it’s because most of the street harassers know that there will be much more severe repercussions from white men for harassing white women.
very true,
they know who to f— with. but i think its the cowards that be in the streets doing the harassing. a real man will approach you if he has something to say.
take tips my brothers
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I blame one particular WM for imposing his own preference to the rest of the western society:
Hugh Hefner.
I think his fixation with blondes has done more harm to women’s self-image (not just NON WW, but also WW) than anything else. Oh course my view is highly subjective and somewhat exaggerated, but you get the gist.
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jorbia says,
Also, I was watching some videos about white women and street harassment from men and then I watched videos about black women and street harassment. Of course, black women received tons more harassment. The question is why. Is it because black women are considered more beautiful? I don’t think so. I believe it’s because most of the street harassers know that there will be much more severe repercussions from white men for harassing white women.
laromana says,
jorbia, this is an EXCELLENT observation that reinforces the FACT that BW in America are the ONLY women who have to face the MOST ATTACKS on their HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY, NOT JUST FROM a RACIST/ANTI-BW CULTURE/MEDIA, but from MANY RACIST, COWARDLY, ANTI-BW BM.
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I don’t really understand all of the controversy over the bw’s higher free testosterone levels. They are easily explained by their relatively poor diets, elevated levels of emotional stress, higher rates of PCOS, and higher diabetes rates.
They are therefore mostly an indicator of the poor physical health of many American black women. Using it as an indicator of femininity or physical beauty would only be relevant when comparing similarly-situated populations, and controlling for general health. Health is attractive obviously, so it makes sense that less healthy women are less attractive. But it says little about core divergence in racial beauty or femininity.
Besides, even though bw have overall higher testosterone-levels, they also have overall higher estrogen levels, perhaps also because of higher obesity rates.
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Oh, I just saw Natasha’s refutation. Never mind, then.
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@ sister Alte,
it’s so good to see you back sister friend!
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Time to annoy everyone here again a bit, with my odd mix of views. Interesting to see you, Obsidian, and Chuck here, as its very fun to discuss with all of you.
I thought of Abagond after reading the review of At the Dark End of the Street in the Washington Post today. And then I realized that I hadn’t checked in here in a while. Amazing how many readers and comments he now has.
Congratulations, Abagond, on your successful blog!
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@ sister Alte
And it’s interesting to see you here, and however “odd” your “mix of views”, you at least you always attempt to to be fair. One cannot ask for better than that.
God Bless.
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^^^
*sigh*
*chic noir looks around the room*
*finds someone she hasn’t seen in a month of sundays*
Hey alte, I was just asking about you on another blog a few days ago.
*chic noir air kisses alte on both checks*
I asked david where you went to some time ago 🙂
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Alte where have you been? Why did you shut down your blogs?
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I have a new blog: http://traditionalcatholicism.wordpress.com/
Oh, I was just a bit burnt-out. But I’m back now. I think I’m going to write something today about the whole HBD/IQ debate, as I think a lot of people are completely missing the most interesting part of it.
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@Alte–
thanks for the link to the “At the End of the Dark Street” book review over at WaPo. this book is in my ‘to be read’ pile.
i liked this from the review:
“Years before the Montgomery bus boycott, a coalition of poor and middle-class black women raised money; formed organizations; wrote, mimeographed and distributed fliers; attended trials; and boycotted the businesses of rapists. These actions created the strategies and alliances that the same women would use later to extend their rights. In fact, the civil rights movement was a continuation of the anti-rape movement; the early college sit-ins, largely by women, came in response to sexual violence, and Rosa Parks was a central figure well before she refused to give up her seat on the bus”–WaPo review 11/21/10
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“Years before the Montgomery bus boycott, a coalition of poor and middle-class black women raised money; formed organizations; wrote, mimeographed and distributed fliers; attended trials; and boycotted the businesses of rapists. These actions created the strategies and alliances that the same women would use later to extend their rights. In fact, the civil rights movement was a continuation of the anti-rape movement; the early college sit-ins, largely by women, came in response to sexual violence, and Rosa Parks was a central figure well before she refused to give up her seat on the bus”–WaPo review
Amazing info! So it seems that BAW have done something positive after all. Creating those “strategies and alliances” that staged the grounds for the civil rights movement is really an earth-shattering contribution. I say that because I read often where BAM who uphold the complexion hierarchy- consider that white women are more beautiful- tell BAW that they don’t owe black women anything.
Not just BAM, but even other groups have used and benefited from using some of these same strategies. Such ingratitude.
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jorbia says,
Amazing info! So it seems that BAW have done something positive after all. Creating those “strategies and alliances” that staged the grounds for the civil rights movement is really an earth-shattering contribution. I say that because I read often where BAM who uphold the complexion hierarchy- consider that white women are more beautiful- tell BAW that they don’t owe black women anything.
Not just BAM, but even other groups have used and benefited from using some of these same strategies. Such ingratitude.
laromana says,
jorbia, it’s so TYPICAL for EVERYONE to BENEFIT from the POSITIVE EFFORTS of BW but NOT SHOW GRATITUDE/GIVE THEM THE CREDIT THEY’RE DUE.
This is SO WRONG.
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“Amazing info! So it seems that BAW have done something positive after all. Creating those “strategies and alliances” that staged the grounds for the civil rights movement is really an earth-shattering contribution.”
@Jorbia–
yes, that’s why i appreciate Alte posting the link above to the Washington Post review.
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I am also planning on reading the book, as I’ve read a bit about that era, but it always starts with the men. I had no idea that there was a woman’s movement begun before that.
Here is the HBD/IQ post. Rather than bothering to debate the “low black IQ” stuff (although I discuss it with O in the comments), I posit the article as “Well then… so what?”
Enjoy!
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@Alte–
I am also planning on reading the book, as I’ve read a bit about that era, but it always starts with the men.
Were the men being raped too? Thanks for posting that!
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That’s an interesting question. I wouldn’t be surprised, as epidemic rape is generally a result of perceived legal impunity, and I doubt the legal protections were higher for men than for women. I suppose we’ll all have to read the book and find out!
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I don’t understand why all you ladies waste your time on the menlick from london character. He is a typical bw hater. He even said on the mr laurelton queens that MOST bw are unfeminine and agressive:https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=7984086939803982935&postID=2445426324171180219
So are most bm uneducated? Are most bm prone to criminal behavior?
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I’ve read on a few sites lately that some BAW and BAM are saying that they should just part from each other. It’s reached the point of utter hatred and it’s so intense on the internet. Eeeuuuwww!
It reminds me of a couple going through a never-ending bitter, hateful divorce. Yet neither one of them will just leave the other alone. It’s just deadly.
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Wow, some of the comments here are quite unbelievable! I imagine or assume that many of the commenters here are 30+ years old.
What a difference a generation or two can make.
The dating scene is quite different for people born in the mid to late eighties and early nineties. This is a generalization (and I am speaking purely from my experiences of course), but people from this particular generation don’t really care about interracial dating at all. It’s pretty much a non issue.
Looking at all of these posts has made me happy that I was born when I was.
That is all I have to say. Peace.
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There are beautiful and ‘ugly’ women/men in all races, ethnic groups. The question (to me) is more, is, or why is, ‘white’ the default race for/of beauty? I’ve seen (yt) celebrities/actresses, models who are declared as ‘bombshells’, classic beauties, ‘stunners/stunning, and thought, um, not. And seen blk women who I thought were attractive to ‘breath-taking’, and never seen their attractiveness mentioned, or presented as ‘nice-looking’, ‘ok’, ‘good-lookin’, [somewhat] pretty and so on. The framing of ‘white’ as the consumate ‘beauty group’ sets this stereotype up, and the mass media/industrial complex has run with it.
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Anonymous
Wow, some of the comments here are quite unbelievable! I imagine or assume that many of the commenters here are 30+ years old.
-What a difference a generation or two can make.
-The dating scene is quite different for people born in the mid to late eighties and early nineties. This is a generalization (and I am speaking purely from my experiences of course), but people from this particular generation don’t really care about interracial dating at all. It’s pretty much a non issue.
-Looking at all of these posts has made me happy that I was born when I was.
-That is all I have to say. Peace.
laromana says,
Anon, you’re right that MOST younger (20’S -early 30’s) men/women are LESS RACIST than MOST older men/women but there are exceptions in both demographics (eg. RACIST John Mayer, MANY YOUNGER RACIST BAM, etc.).
ALL of us, REGARDLESS of AGE DEMOGRAPHICS, need to do our part to help CHALLENGE/DESTROY ANTI-BW RACISM (and other brands of RACISM) in American culture/media.
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http://vimeo.com/16210769
Hope this is useful to this discussion.
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After thinking on this subject off and on over my 4-day holiday weekend, I tend to feel that the 24/7 media circus is the main reason, but not solely responsible for, the idiotic notion that white women are the epitome of female beauty. News programs, so-called ‘reality’ shows, E! programs that focus on the inane Kardashians or the vapid Hiltons, the list goes on…
It used to be that the only time a celebrity was reported on in a regular news program would be if he or she ODed, was committed to a hospital, was implicated in a crime, or got married/divorced. Now we have ‘info-tainment’ – half-truths and biased stories read off of teleprompters by plastic cyborgs and fembots.
I was watching Stephen Colbert the other day, and apparently there is a new ‘reality’ show called ‘BridalPlasty’ where the contestants (18 women, I believe) compete for a head-to-toe, full-body makeover which includes a laundry list of cosmetic procedures to prepare for a “celebrity-style wedding gala”. The whole shebang can be seen here:
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/366750/november-29-2010/tip-wag—bridalplasty–tom-delay—aids
Back to my point; white women aren’t more beautiful than other women. They just seem to be more willing than other women to do ANYTHING, no matter how reprehensible, crazy, or downright stupid it is – simply to get attention from any man, anywhere.
Guess what – it works for them! Me, I’m glad that I’ve never had to crawl in the mud with the pigs, or debase myself, for attention or approval from anyone. Self-confidence is a beautiful thing, and it doesn’t come from a bottle of hair dye or a surgeon’s scalpel…
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I’ve never heard of her, hence this post
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jorbia said:
“@Warren AZ–
The “Fro Hawk” on a Black Woman is such a perfect example of a style only woman with that texture can wear and that THEY decided to wear with no apologies.
I agree completely with everything you said. You are an “outside the box” thinker. Yes! The “Fro Hawk” is a blazing style, but a lot of BAW would not wear that because a lot of BAM would NOT like it. The vast majority of BAM love hair that hangs down and blows in the wind. Since a lot of BAW only go with BAM, those that do are held captive by what the men like.
I know that some may want BAW to be trailblazers, but when they do that “with no apology” as you say, then people consider them to be “aggressive” or “man”nish, and men don’t like them romantically. A lot of BAM and others want the docile, submissive, meek type woman. I love your idea, but I don’t think it’s fair to push BAW to be more brazen and unapologetic because they end up alone. Who’s got their back? Which men are going to step out there and love and protect that bold, unapologetic BAW?”
Let me apologize in advance for the way this may come across. This is a sensitive topic with a lot of emotion attached. With that being said I believe you’re reaching a bit.
You are suggesting that BAW can’t move forward in pursuing their own standard of beauty because Black Men or society as a whole won’t like it and to me that is an excuse to continue playing the martyr in the realm of Beauty. Are BAW really so content in this role that they’ll use what you said as a legitimate stumbling block to stay where they are?
What you wrote is a classic example of how BAW have been more responsible for their self consciousness post Civil Rights than any outsider. How? Because it is a sentiment that is shared among BAW and overheard by younger girls who then share it with their peers.
I found out about the FroHawk when our Staff Attorney wore it to a company networking function. She seemed to be more concerned with keeping her dress from getting dirty than the fact that she was the only person with that hairstyle and she wore it like a hairstyle just like the WAW at our job wear buns and ponytails and cuts. There are quite a few Black Guys at our office but I’m almost 100% sure she didn’t call the lot of them to ask if they would “like” her hair in this style. “What Black Men Like” is a convenient excuse for an apparent dissatisfaction of being black that makes it look like BAW want to be validated for being Black and not for being beautiful in their own way.
If BAW aren’t willing to validate themselves and each other than what can the rest of us do except let them host their pity party while some Blond runs the beach in a bikini looking quite happy about what makes her different from you-that is her confidence.
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Bro Warren AZ,
you don’t need to apologise for checking this woman! She got it wrong but not for the reason of ignorance but due to a simple, and abiding, malice towards Black men.
Consider that the very obvious reality is that Black women are far more fearful of negroid hair on a female head, no matter what its style, than are Black men (many consider it sensual ‘n’ chic just s they do locks); consider also that those Black men who prefer straight hair are quite literally brainwashed by mothers, aunts etc from birth to perceive negroid hairstyles as abnormal and unfeminine.
That’s right: Black females teach and demonstrate this to their sons, nephews and brother etc!
By contrast, the ‘Black Is Beautiful’ movement (borne out of the ‘Black power Movement’) was led by Black men who sought to teach one and all to accept that their “noses are broad; are lips are thick and hair is nappy and we are beautiful!” (Kwame Ture, I believe).
The strong Black Woman Movement of the modern era – which was promoted originally by the CIA, and perpetuated by deliberate government neglect of the “Negro Family” (see Patrick Moynihan’s Report), has produced nothing but pity parties and racial self-loathing!
Warren, like I said: don’t apologise for a damned thing since the guilty party are in fact the ones complaining about the very pathologies they promote within the home!
Menelik Charles
London UK
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@WarrenAZ–
You are suggesting that BAW can’t move forward in pursuing their own standard of beauty because Black Men
or society as a whole won’t like it
Look at it on the individual BAW level. The individual BAW is not an outlier because only a small percentage of people are outliers. Yes, the outlier BAW and a small number of others in unique circumstances could and do wear the Mohawk Fro and similar hairstyles, but you can’t know for sure what kind of extra stress the BW staff attorney might be incurring for wearing her hair like that. I don’t think BAW want to bring on more stress and disapproval on themselves. Your staff attorney may be an outlier or may be positioned in a certain way in your company structure and in her life and may not have to deal with or care about others criticizing her hair style, or rejecting her due to it.
and to me that is an excuse to continue playing the martyr in the realm of Beauty. Are BAW really so content in this role that they’ll use what you said as a legitimate stumbling block to stay where they are?
No, I don’t think BAW are content in this role but the masses of humans tend to conform in certain ways and go the path of least resistance just to reduce stress and problems. Why would you or anyone expect BAW to be different? BAW are not superhuman. So I’m not sure why BAM (assuming you are one) expect for the women to revolt and lead this and that.
If BAW aren’t willing to validate themselves and each other than what can the rest of us do except let them host their pity party
I don’t understand this. Don’t men constantly tell women that women can’t decide who is a beautiful woman and that only men can decide that? Are you saying that BAW should just decide that they’re beautiful and discount what BAM think? Some BAW have tried that and they’ve still seen Quality BAM lust after blondes or women who are considered higher on the complexion hierarchy.
ALL women want to be viewed as beautiful and desirable, so most women of all groups are going to do at least some things to look as much like the most pursued women, and those women are the lightest women, and the blondes. This is why I oppose the complexion hierarchy.
Overall, I’m really confused about why some people think that BAW are different than other women. Aside from our complexion and hair, we are the same inside as any other woman. We want the same things as other women.
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@Menelik Charles–
Coming to fight a BW? That seems to be one of your favorite pasttimes. I’ve read where you go around the internet, blaming BW for everything or name-calling BW.
So you’ve read a psychology book and now think you are a master mind reader?
You have not lived as a BAW any day of your life. Most BAW know that the overwhelming majority of BAM do not see natural hair as ‘sensual and chic.’ It’s actually just the opposite. We know this because WE are the ones who get the comments from BM about our hair. If our hairstyle is straightened or longer, those comments are rarely negative, but when our hair is natural, there are either no comments or we are often rejected as they pursue straighter/longer haired women.
You may not know this, but a lot of BM love to “run their fingers through” straight hair or see it blowing in the wind. Some BAW are still very interested in what BAM like.
Not saying that ALL BAM are like this, but so many BAM will not admit that they prefer straight/long hair or lighter skin, or will find all sorts of convoluted reasons for who they choose to date and those women are usually lighter, straighter-haired woman, that is, if they can get her.
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@jorbia:
Excellent posts!!! I enjoy reading them. Keep it up! 😀
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I agree. I really like Jorbia’s posts.
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@Leigh204 & Hannu L
THANKS!
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God, that “fro hawk” looks gorgeous!
I mean, I’m a scandinavian blue-eyed blond (before getting bald), and me and my ex styled our son’s hair (blond) as a mohawk when he went to first grade, and he looked COOL! Everybody thought he was a tough guy!
Ah, those BAW hair styles look so great! I can’t stop staring at them! There’s just so much u can do with it, let your imagination go wild!
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Seems to be a little bit of both. Sure there are black men that reject “negroid” featured black women romantically. In western society were white is right it would be idiotic to say there aren’t black men(some not all) that dot like African features on women. That could cause black women with certain features to feel self-conscious and want to change their racial features to gain romantic approval. At the same time I do believe some women use the black men who prefer white/non-black women as justification for changing altering their features. Personally I’m not going to judge why people do what they do, or whether or not it’s right or wrong, but I believe people have to own up to their preferences. You like what you like. If you prefer hour hair straight just say you prefer straight hair. But don’t deflect you preference and pretend you prefer kinky hair but you straighten your hair for acceptance.
Sure acceptance is part of it but at the end of the what YOU like is going to determine how you style yourself. I know straight hair is seen as prettier(on average) that kinky hair yet I wear an Afro. Why? Because I like it regardless of who doesn’t.
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@Hannu L–
Ah, those BAW hair styles look so great! I can’t stop staring at them! There’s just so much u can do with it, let your imagination go wild!
You’d see many little tiny Black girls with this hairstyle and similar ones in the more segregated Black American neighborhoods. I think that it’s when most Black girls get older or become more aware of the hair of girls from other groups that they really want their hair to hang down, sometimes due to teasing at school or to fit in. Some Black mother start putting in those terrible “perming” chemicals at this point to make their daughter’s hair hang down, so their daughters don’t feel different. I don’t have a daughter yet but I’d rather shave her hair off and pass her off as a boy 🙂 than put those chemicals on her head.
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I respect you for that. Props.
And besides, short hair looks good on a woman! I always had a soft spot for short-haired women… black, blond or brunette.
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MC says,
Bro Warren AZ,
-you don’t need to apologise for checking this woman! She got it wrong but not for the reason of ignorance but due to a simple, and abiding, malice towards Black men.
-Consider that the very obvious reality is that Black women are far more fearful of negroid hair on a female head, no matter what its style, than are Black men (many consider it sensual ‘n’ chic just s they do locks); consider also that those Black men who prefer straight hair are quite literally brainwashed by mothers, aunts etc from birth to perceive negroid hairstyles as abnormal and unfeminine.
-That’s right: Black females teach and demonstrate this to their sons, nephews and brother etc!
-By contrast, the ‘Black Is Beautiful’ movement (borne out of the ‘Black power Movement’) was led by Black men who sought to teach one and all to accept that their “noses are broad; are lips are thick and hair is nappy and we are beautiful!” (Kwame Ture, I believe).
-The strong Black Woman Movement of the modern era – which was promoted originally by the CIA, and perpetuated by deliberate government neglect of the “Negro Family” (see Patrick Moynihan’s Report), has produced nothing but pity parties and racial self-loathing!
-Warren, like I said: don’t apologise for a damned thing since the guilty party are in fact the ones complaining about the very pathologies they promote within the home!
jorbia says,
jorbia
@Menelik Charles–
-Coming to fight a BW? That seems to be one of your favorite pasttimes. I’ve read where you go around the internet, blaming BW for everything or name-calling BW.
-You have not lived as a BAW any day of your life. Most BAW know that the overwhelming majority of BAM do not see natural hair as ‘sensual and chic.’ It’s actually just the opposite. We know this because WE are the ones who get the comments from BM about our hair. If our hairstyle is straightened or longer, those comments are rarely negative, but when our hair is natural, there are either no comments or we are often rejected as they pursue straighter/longer haired women.
laromana says,
jorbia,
Again you’ve posted an EXCELLENT, INSIGHTFUL, INTELLIGENT response to CERTAIN ANTI-BW RACIST, IMBECILE, AH BAM who ONLY want to CONTINUE TRASHING the HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY of BW.
It’s CLEAR, to anyone with ANY INTELLIGENCE, that MANY BAM have TOO MANY ISSUES of THEIR OWN to be CONSTANTLY STICKING THEIR IRRELEVANT NOSES in BW’s business.
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I’m sorry, but…
WTF is it with these black dudes? I understand if they’re pissed off with IR-dating, but HAIR as well? Get lives, dudes!
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@Y–
I believe people have to own up to their preferences. You like what you like. If you prefer hour hair straight just say you prefer straight hair. But don’t deflect you preference and pretend you prefer kinky hair but you straighten your hair for acceptance.
I think that a lot of the acrimony between BAW and BAM is due to utter hypocrisy and dishonesty. During the days of “Black is Beautiful,” it’s been documented that most of the most prominent Black male leaders (even the Black Panthers) of that movement pursued white women for girlfriends and bedmates. Yet, these BAM leaders (spouting “black is beautiful’ and ‘power to the people’) pressured Black women to support them, follow them, and respect them as leaders for the “Cause.” We see now that some of the leaders of the Civil Rights movement such as Vernon Jordan, Julian Bond, and I could cite others, had white girlfriends and have since married white women. Heard rumors even about Dr. King to that effect. Yet, when Black women like Alice Walker married a white man, she was labelled a “sellout” and was hit with all kinds of nasty criticism by prominent BM. Many BAW don’t date WM to this day due to that fear of that nasty criticism. This is rank hypocrisy.
If BAM prefer White women, so be it, but when BAW prefer White men, then so be that too.
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@ jorbia
I think the problem (or at least one of them) is that we like to try and pretend that we can truly tell the difference between a preference and a prejudice, and often we can’t.
When someone tells you that one thing is more beautiful over and over again and then you just happen to “prefer” that very thing… well, you get the picture.
A LOT of our so-called “preferences” don’t happen in a vacuum. An intellectual understanding that you have been brainwashed to prefer vanilla does not make your taste buds start craving chocolate. At least not right away.
There is somewhat of a rift between BAM and BAW because we have both been miseducated as to what is beautiful within ourselves.
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Jorbia
You are right about that. I believe a lot of this fighting about IRR, hair, skintone ect can be avoided if people stop the hypocrisy and just own up to what they like. I certainly don’t apologize for liking what I like nor do I pretend to like what I dont like to save face.
I definitely see how people talking about “black is beautiful” yet proceeding to date white/non-black can raise eye brows. however, not everyone who dates white is looking to reject their own race.
I can’t help but notice that a lot of people, men and women alike, take IRR too personally. They see it as an afront to their own desirability and the desirability of people who look like them which isn’t necessarily the case. I’m willing to bet most of the time it’s just preference. Sure there are people who date interacially because they feel their race of men/women are unattractive and/or posesses negative qualities(ie BW perceived attitude) but I don’t think those people deserve to be hyped. Like I said before some people will use stuff like BWs attitude as a reason why they date IR, if you ask me they are just looking for an ‘excuse’ to date IR. The people that do that just need to admit they have prefereneces for other women and leave it at that. Nothing to be ashamed of IMO
I was all over the place, lol.
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@King–
I really like this type of honesty:
An intellectual understanding that you have been brainwashed to prefer vanilla does not make your taste buds start craving chocolate. At least not right away.
Okay, but then don’t try to make me believe you prefer chocolate or natural hair when everything in my experience tells me that you prefer vanilla (straight hair that blows in the wind.) That’s a BM’s struggle, not a typical Black woman’s. I don’t want to be with a man who’s struggling to try to get his taste buds in line with his intellect to like me. Yuk! Just leave me alone so that I can be with a man who already knows he prefers me.
This doesn’t apply to all BW, but typically BW don’t like WM because they’re white or have straight hair that blows in the wind or look Euro. Wm haven’t been pitched at BW as being “beautiful” men. Typically, BW like WM due to the way that WM is productive, treats her or due to the way she sees him treating other women. Not saying that all WM treat women well. Not at all. Doesn’t mean he’s guaranteed to treat her that way either, but this is the appeal. I know this is the case with me.
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I agree with King in the sense that even if someone has come to the conclusion that they are “conditioned” to like vanilla that they will not automatically start to like chocolate… This why I really don’t care to argue about IRR, features ect. At the end of the day that preference is going to be hard to change…As long as the person who likes vanilla isn’t talking trash about chocolate its cool…
But too many people like to justify their preference for vanilla according to what chocolate is or isn’t doing, which is wrong IMO… If you like vanilla, you like vanilla and leave it at that and leave chocolate alone.
Jorbia,
I also agree with you 1st paragraph. I don’t want to be with a man because he feels he has to be with me. I want a man that wants me out of love not obligation. I want him to want me(like the song LMAO). I don’t want to an “affirmative action” wife/girlfriend. I’d rather be alone than be with a guy that is forcing himself to be turned on by me
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@Y–
You are right about that. I believe a lot of this fighting about IRR, hair, skintone ect can be avoided if people stop the hypocrisy and just own up to what they like. I certainly don’t apologize for liking what I like nor do I pretend to like what I dont like to save face.
So TRUE! I’m all for people being honest about what they want or prefer. Some BM (just like those BM leaders) will refuse to own up to their preference or desire for White or other women because they fear they will lose access to Black women’s bodies and other things they want from BW. Simultaneously, they can’t stand the thought of those Black women being with White men and they will therefore criticize and harass Black women to discourage them from being with WM and tell WM that BW don’t like them. That’s such dishonesty, deception, and hypocrisy.
This would all be resolved if BM and BW could just leave each other alone to be with whom they choose.
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Well, in my own case, I’ve chosen chocolate most often, but I’ve also dated outside of our race. So naturally, I don’t have any problems with BAW dating out either—in fact, I tend to secretly root for it.
I live in a place where everyone tends to date out, at some point. I know very few people who have NEVER dated a person outside of their own race. I think it tends to open your mind a bit to other cultures and other ways of thinking.
But I still understand that some BAM and BAW are just stuck on White or White-like. Often times, it’s not a preference but an ingrained prejudice. But the solution to such a prejudice is complicated because it’s difficult to separate outside influences from personal likes. It’s inception – the planting an idea in somebody else’s mind so that they believe that it’s their own idea. Why do you like what you like?
Not always easy to answer.
But I agree with you, the kind of ethnic territorialism and protectionism that has been so common in past generations is an obstacle to personal discovery and truth.
If you truly like people of your own ethnicity exclusively, then you will find that out if and when you try to date somebody who isn’t. If you can find compatibility with people outside of your ethnicity, then you will discover that too. there is nothing to be gained by playing the dating police.
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I should probably reword this:
“I know very few people who have NEVER dated a person outside of their own race.”
IT SHOULD READ
I know very few people, in my age group and younger, who have NEVER dated a person outside of their own race, if they are dating at all.
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@King–
But I still understand that some BAM and BAW are just stuck on White or White-like. Often times, it’s not a preference but an ingrained prejudice.
Well, I don’t have a preference or an ingrained prejudice for either white, white-like or black men. So, I can’t relate to that at all when it comes to men. It all depends on the caliber of person the man is and the way he makes me feel.
I can relate to preferences and ingrained prejudices when it comes to certain foods though. I definitely have an ingrained prejudice against certain foods though, without every tasting them, and I can’t explain exactly why I don’t like them. Stuff buried in my unconscious, I guess.
But it does seem that a “preference” is actually an “ingrained prejudice.”
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“But it does seem that a ‘preference’ is actually an ‘ingrained prejudice.”
In a very directly defined sense, it is.
But I am using “prejudice” to signify the indoctrinated racial hierarchical system, commonly imposed in the Western world, these past few centuries.
I am using “preference” to indicate the non-systemic personal “likes” that stem from personal experiences rather than worldview education.
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i agree preference is an ingrained prejudice. it just sounds stupid to me. it is the insecurity within themself. when someone say to me well i prefer white women over black women. how could you prefer whole race of people without knowing them all as individuals. there is not one standards of beauty and i think that is fair to say, with me being a black women. i would respect any man that tells me that he love beautifull women rather than one who say he prefers a certain race then you shouldn’t be in my face because obviously you think your better than me.
i love being a black women because although society have their standards of beauty. a beautifull woman will stand out regardless. i’m not light skin, i’m not white. but it something you call silence them all. or what is to be must be. i don’t feel inferior. alot of black women although they feel hurt by these myths. they also believe them. putting light skin women and white women as haveing a advantage. yes i know prejudice do exist but its just not strong enough to stop me from being beautifull.
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@jorbia
I’m going to reply in corresponding sections.
Grace, our bacon-saver, wore her FroHawk to our event because it was a casual setting and so was her attire. While in the office she wears more conservative styles that are still unique to the texture of hair that is prominent in her race in conservative attire. There are BAW who serve in the armed forces who wear their hair in styles that are unique to their race and still fall within uniform standards for grooming regulations. There are BAW in professional work settings who do the same and still fall within corporate standards. To suggest that it isn’t possible for BAW to be creative and informative about their hair options sounds like another excuse made not to take on the task of at all.
If that was the case than BAW would not be so vocal with their concerns in the realm of American beauty. They would be complacent, even silent because they would be taking “the path of least resistance just to reduce stress and problems.” I don’t think BAW have some sort of hero serum they’d have to take to begin setting their standard but I do think it’s very disappointing to hear BAW who have the buying power, education, and marketing resources tell the world they can’t do something that would benefit them the most.
I’m not saying BAW should tell themselves anything. I said BAW should be setting their own standard of beauty based on what is unique to their race and turn a profit while they’re at it if they can. There are still going to BAW who will considered unattractive simply because they are unattractive. Luckily for them beauty itself is subjective and she will have a standard she can relate to that will allow her to showcase the physical qualities she shares with that standard.
“ALL women want to be viewed as beautiful and desirable”, tell something I don’t know. This is not by any means an attempt to raise the self esteem of BAW (self esteem is a better example of something on an “individual BAW level”). Am I telling BAW to discount what BAW or any man thinks about this subject? Yes, because they were born Black and Female, the textured hair and the darker skin isn’t going anywhere so why treat like a burden?
BAW will still wear cosmetics, scents, lingerie, women’s clothing, and carry handbags because
1.)they are women
2.)these items/enhancements are not racially unique
3.)Men including BAM like seeing 1 and 2 together
So I can’t accept your premise about BAM dictating what BAW should look like. The only way BAM want BAW to look is good naked-that’s all, the rest is entirely up to you.
There is a hierarchy, we see it and acknowledge it, the question is how does this stop/slow the process for setting a standard within each level? It doesn’t, the goal isn’t for others to find the value, it’s up to the people who benefit the most to find the virtue in it. BAW do want the same things other women do and have the same emotional needs other women do but this exchange isn’t about that, it’s about, again, BAW setting their own standard of beauty, that’s it.
Don’t make an assumption about my race or sex based on what I’ve posted. “Consider the source” is the worst advice ever given to the masses. It gives us an excuse to focus more on the speaker than the content. Nobody can really know until I divulge it.
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@Menelik
Are you sure that I am a male and/or black? LOL
I’m not trying to set anyone straight, I just want BAW to take a more proactive role in establishing a standard they can identify with.
I still stand by what I said about BAW having a much larger hand in how they perceive what is distinctive to them.
“Black is Beautiful” was a tied to the Black Power Movement and unfortunately when it declined so did the sentiments ties to it.
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@Y
Yeah I agree with you. Alot of people seem to get off on mistreating black people of the opposiste sex just because they like lightskinned or white people in a romantic sense. Why can’t people just like what they like without being offensive. It is like these people deep down inside get a kick out of trying to make people feel inferior or jealous. Sometimes it is about revenge also. These people need to grow up! There are very few people who haven’t been attracted to someone of another race rather they admit it or not. But everyone doesn’t spend all their time dissing people in their own race (of the opposite sex). It is only immature people who do this.
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@Y
I meant to say that everyone doesn’t diss people in their race because they are occasionally attracted to someone of another race. It is only vengeful and spiteful people who do this!
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@WarrenAZ–
Okay, I’ll respond to several of your points since you want to have this debate with me.
To suggest that it isn’t possible for BAW to be creative and informative about their hair options sounds like another excuse made not to take on the task of at all.
I can’t control what you think I’ve “suggested?” That’s up to you. You’ve presented a strawman. I never said anything about what’s “possible.” Practically anything is possible.
I was merely stating some of the reasons why many BW do NOT wear their hair naturally.
Also, you are perfectly free to start a campaign for BW to wear their hair naturally.
Grace, our bacon-saver, wore her FroHawk to our event because it was a casual setting and so was her attire. While in the office she wears more conservative styles that are still unique to the texture of hair that is prominent in her race in conservative attire.
I agree with much of what you say, but IMO, without Oprah or a mini-Oprahlike force event to propel this, you’re being idealistic.
If we’re going to simply start talking about ideals or about what it would be to Black peoples’ benefit (financially and otherwise) to do, I could list numerous ways that Black should and could change and make them a lot of money, and benefit themselves across the board.
Guess what? They’re heard it all before. The reason for the slow change is because Blacks have to live and survive moment by moment in the REAL, lonely, challenging world. In the real world, there is constant pushback and competition, and if you, as an individual BW don’t have the power or resources to defend yourself, all by yourself, you’re going to be toast.
BAW are frequently under attack already for just about everything. Barely anyone defends us except for individual ones of us. We don’t have a BAW defamation league.
Some people are outliers or decide to fight the pushback. Most people won’t. So when a BW make a decision to step out there and go against the flow, she knows she’ll, in all likelihood, be all alone.
For ex, what if I think that the frohawk IS an okay style for wear at the office every day. Idealistically, why would there be any pushback? Who exactly makes this decision about whether a BW’s hairstyle is conservative, radical, or is in an okay style? You? Who?
BW do need to think about that because we’re the ones on an individual basis who will have to deal with the consequences. I’ve seen with so many Black people that they constantly try to push other Blacks out there, but they will only come out if they see that you’ve survived the battle. They don’t come to your defense when you’re being slaughtered.
This is the slippery slope that many BW try to avoid because many BW are already going through enough social hell these days, so some of them just wear styles that they believe others won’t object to and styles that at least some men seem to like.
The only way BAM want BAW to look is good naked-that’s all, the rest is entirely up to you.
This is exactly why a lot of BAW are willing to get “naked” with BAM or dress outlandishly because they believe this is the only way they can get and keep the attention. This is exactly my point. If BAW’s natural hair and natural beauty were seen as beautiful just as they are by BAM, they would be treated like they’re beautiful and wanted. They wouldn’t feel the need to get naked so fast, wear unnatural hair or do some of the other things they do, just to have a man.
BW want to have a social life too 🙂 just like other normal women. They also want to have as much calmness in their lives as possible. Why do you think Michelle Obama doesn’t wear her hair in its natural state? Why do you think her daughters hair is usually straightened? I remember when one of her daughters had twists while they were on vacation. There was media FRENZY about that–even closeups of her child’s head!
Often when BW do assert that they are beautiful just as they are, they are made fun of and presented as freaks of some sort. For ex, just look at what some of those “Big and Beautiful” BW go through with all the ridicule thrown at them for even being size 12 and 14 and having the “nerve” to think they’re beautiful.
If I didn’t blow my hair out, I would have massive clouds of hair around my head. I would be pointed at and stared at like a freak. I already know that some people would try to touch my hair because they’ve done that before. They want the “experience” of sinking their fingers into my textured hair. That’s VERY stressful. YOU were never there to stop them. So, if I don’t want to cut it, I wear it straight.
This is why I said you have to look at each BW as an individual because there is no one else there to help her to fight her battles.
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Thank you peanut. I think a lot of white people are oblivious to how the media shapes a black person’s self-worth. I almost wish I wasn’t born black because of all the idiotic prejudice against us. I think Chuck seriously needs to call himself “Up Chuck” because he’s regurgitating racist propaganda under the guise of science. What’s even more disgusting to me is how some black men cosign on that racist BS against black women too.
I don’t agree with everything said on this blog but I’m not oblivious to the obvious prejudice and outright bigotry against blacks and black women in particular.
I feel bad for my little black girls. I will not defend white girls because everyone has their backs including black males
😦
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@ pamela
so true
but black men and black women contribute to this problem.
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Pamela, stay away from things that make you feel that way. visit sites etc that affirm who you are in a positive way.
here are two sites for you
http://www.vogue.it/en/vogue-black
http://tobia.tumblr.com/ -abagond check this one out. you may find something of intreast here.
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I am not going to read all of these comments but I will say one thing. When Chuck make the comments about testosterone he should have been ignored. Go to stormfront or any racist site and that is one of their go to arguments, also his usage of the word “negroidal” They are always talking about the masculinity of black women over there. There is no science to it. At all.
And the answer to the question is that white women are no more beautiful than any othe race. I remember the press about Elin, Tigers wife and how beautifuil she was. I googled because I didnt know her and was not impressed. But because she is blond she is seen as gorgeous,not just what she is which is average. Also the movie spiderman. MaryJane is supposed to be insanely beautiful. Why did they cast Kirsten Dunst, who is not very pretty?
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Jorbia…that is deep, girl. And it is true. 😦
As a biracial woman with skin that is damn near white, I won’t pretend to know what it is like to be dark-skinned.
But I have lived in the South all my life. I’ve experienced racism because my fair skin and kinky hair are often a tell-tale sign of my mixed heritage.
I’ve been on the receiving end of dark-skinned women hating me because I look white…little do they know that I am a woman of color. I’ve spent nearly 30 years of my life in this world being made to feel like I have no right to be here.
I view Black women as beautiful. Although the hostility and rejection that I perceive from some Black women hurts me, I understand it. Because my skin is fair, they assume that I benefit in society somehow. They believe that because I have more of a non-black phenotype, I feel superior.
This is not true. Very few white people see me as one of them. Thanks to the racist “one-drop rule” I’m considered nothing but a n***er to some folks.
I believe that SOME white women are beautiful. The same holds true for all other kinds of women. Are white women the most beautiful? No, because it is impossible for one type of individual to be the most of anything, let alone a collective group.
I will not disrespect or belittle anyone’s physical characteristics, but I will say that beautiful Black women are a sight to behold. Unfortunately, some people will never recognize this beauty due to racism disguised as “preference”. And some people will flat-out disrespect Black women simply because they hate Black women.
There is nothing wrong with liking white women or Asians and Latinas…but I’ve never understood the need to put Black women down. One can prefer the features of a white woman without calling Black women ugly and masculine.
Last year I was at the grocery store being helped by the clerk, a young Black woman. She was gorgeous even in her uniform…beautiful brown eyes framed by long lashes, smooth dark chocolate skin, and the prettiest smile. I complimented her on her braids and it was really amazing to see how she lit up when I said that.
But it broke my heart, too. I’m a heterosexual married woman but I thought this girl was fine. It’s a damn shame that I’m one of the few people to ever tell her how beautiful she is. It is proof that Black women have to struggle to be viewed as feminine and worthy of respect in this society.
I remember shopping at Victoria’s Secret once and the salesgirl, who was dark-skinned, asking me if I was mixed. I said yes. Then she said wistfully: “I want to have mixed babies someday”. How could I respond to that? It was really sad. And it says a lot about the way whiteness is privileged in this society. She was a pretty girl, with her full lips and kinky hair and voluptuous figure…but like many Black women in America, she obviously internalized the false notion that she is not beautiful.
SOME Black women are unattractive and unfeminine. The same applies to SOME white women and Latinas and Asians. It seems that Black women are the ones who are often slapped with the labels of ugly, inferior, loud, angry, etc. I’ve seen some racist whites online refer to Black women as “sheboons”, comparing them to monkeys.
Society definitely contributes to the way Black women are viewed in comparison to other groups and how their self-perception is often influenced by the white beauty ideal. When one of my cousins was little, she wanted to relax her hair so she would look like the girls in the Pantene commercials. My family thought this was funny…they didn’t see anything troubling about the fact that this child viewed straight hair as prettier than her own kinky hair.
As to the last comment…I agree. Elin Woods is pretty, IMO, but not as gorgeous as some people make her out to be.
Kirsten Dunst isn’t ugly, but she’s no beauty either. She is very plain.
I’ve heard people say that Jennifer Aniston is beautiful. Personally, I don’t see it.
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@Cinnamondiva:
Amen! What a great post!
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All right, let’s compare black women and white women and see who stacks up better.
1) White women have thin lips. Black women have full voluptuous lips.
2) White women start to age really bad when they get in their thirties. Black women generally look younger than they really are. One black woman counselor at my school told me it was her birthday one day. I asked her how old she is. I thought she was like 40 or 42, while her answer surprised me–60! And let me say that this black woman never puts on makeup or anything. Also, many white women are starting to get wrinkles at a younger age because they tan. Sure, a tan blonde 20-something looks alright right now, but 10 years down the road she’ll implode because of the skin damage.
3) White women (and Asian women) have, on average, thin flat bodies. Black women have curvier bodies (bigger breasts, a curvier booty).
4) White women start losing their hair at a certain age. Like white men that start to go bald. It’s genetic. Black women, on the other hand, have thick full hair.
5) Black women appreciate when you do something nice for them like opening a door or buying them gifts. White women are spoiled since they believe they’re all princesses on pedestools.
6) Black women know how to take care of a man. Evil spoiled White women divorce you and steal half of everything in your life–including your children.
7) Black women have soft cute round noses. White women have razor-sharp knife-sharp thin hooked noses. I could cut butter with a white women’s nose.
8) White women are full of self-hate since they try to be like black women (tanning, breasts implants, booty implants, lips like Angelina Jolie).
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My vote’s for a good looking black or latin women any day over a good looking white women, …and i’m a white guy. I was born in the wrong country-it should’ve been Brasil.
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@ Matt,
you got great taste, mate!
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Jorbia,
It’s not a Strawman because it takes away your excuse. And it’s not just about hair either. In my original post I talked about a healthy physique, nice smile, clear eyes and skin, and hair. You say you’re giving examples of why Black Women don’t go natural and unfortunately each one you gave was a glorified excuse.
Black Women choose to relax their hair, black women choose to relax their toddlers hair too so who has their backs?
If Black Women don’t want to fight against conventional physical standards in this country then they should be silent about the issue. Period.
Sidenote; I wonder how Black Women who like looking and being Black feel about racially insecure Black Women who try to speak on their behalf about hair and skin.
One more thing. You want Black Women to be taken on an individual basis. Valid point, but are you willing to do that for members of other racial groups and black men?
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@ Warren,
you make some astonishingly good points!
Damned good!
@ Calculator,
Black women are awesome but go easy on bashing the characters of white women…not least of all because you appear to be describing the characters of a distressing number of Black women!
Just saying, bro.
Menelik Charles
London UK
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@WarrenAZ–
It’s not a Strawman because it takes away your excuse.
You believe what you want, and I’ll believe what I know. I think a Black woman should wear her hair the way she can afford to wear it because there can be a price to pay. So that’s her individual decision.
One of the things I always notice is how BAM constantly want BAW to go out and fight social battles. Some BAM ought to be so ashamed.
Let’s say that a group of high level BAW sales reps at a major communications company started wearing their hair natural and some of their company’s bigwig clients got the word to the company’s upper echelons that they didn’t want those women handling their accounts any more. What would BAM actually do to support and defend those women? Would 10,000 BAM cancel their cell phone service account with them? No, they wouldn’t and they didn’t. The women talked about filing a lawsuit, but that’s a long drawn out process and so stressful. These Black women have children and responsibilities and they knew they were alone.
Black men can get on the internet and talk tough, but most of them don’t do much of anything strong or positive to help BAW on a day to day basis not to feel alone. Do BAM really have the women’s back? Most BAW would say no.
To bring this back to the thread topic, the ONLY reason why White women are viewed as the “most beautiful” is because White men have fought just about everybody down through history to make sure that White women can wear that crown comfortably. They have White women’s back. White men have beaten White women’s beauty into the brains of just about every man in the world. I believe that most Black men are too scared to reject White women’s beauty, so to save themselves, they “prefer” it, no matter how the White woman actually looks.
What do the Black men who call themselves “conscious” or “warriors” ever do to help Black women aside from talk. 🙂
If Black Women don’t want to fight against conventional physical standards in this country then they should be silent about the issue. Period.
Go out and get some BAM to stand up and fight for Black women instead of pushing women out there to break down the barriers. When BAW lose their jobs or don’t get promoted or are labeled as “troublemakers” because they fought against the social conventions, where are Black men? Do Black men step up to pay their rent or mortgage note? Buy food and clothes for their children? Help them handle the stress?
So, you can try to talk Black women into putting themselves on the line like that. I won’t. Better still, try to persuade Oprah or Michelle Obama to go natural.
One more thing. You want Black Women to be taken on an individual basis. Valid point, but are you willing to do that for members of other racial groups and black men?
Always. I always give individual credit where individual credit is due.
black women choose to relax their toddlers hair too so who has their backs?
What percentage of Black mothers relax their toddlers hair? Say it. I would bet it’s only a small percentage. You’re just stretching hard here to portray Black women in a negative way. I could just as well point at the number of White mothers who push their tiny daughters out there on the beauty queen circuit to compete to be Little Miss Strawberry Festival or something like that. There are some silly mothers in all groups.
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To answer some posts awhile ago… @king: i find the comparisons between preference and ingrained prejudice interesting, because there is also a thing called acquired taste. To me, the older I get, the more beauty I see among women of different ethnic features. To me it’s an ongoing progress, evolution of taste. I wasn’t born to like red wine, nor gorgonzola.
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I have nothing against any other hairstyles, but I love BW with natural hair!
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jorbia says,
@WarrenAZ–
It’s not a Strawman because it takes away your excuse.
You believe what you want, and I’ll believe what I know. I think a Black woman should wear her hair the way she can afford to wear it because there can be a price to pay. So that’s her individual decision.
One of the things I always notice is how BAM constantly want BAW to go out and fight social battles. Some BAM ought to be so ashamed.
Let’s say that a group of high level BAW sales reps at a major communications company started wearing their hair natural and some of their company’s bigwig clients got the word to the company’s upper echelons that they didn’t want those women handling their accounts any more. What would BAM actually do to support and defend those women? Would 10,000 BAM cancel their cell phone service account with them? No, they wouldn’t and they didn’t. The women talked about filing a lawsuit, but that’s a long drawn out process and so stressful. These Black women have children and responsibilities and they knew they were alone.
Black men can get on the internet and talk tough, but most of them don’t do much of anything strong or positive to help BAW on a day to day basis not to feel alone. Do BAM really have the women’s back? Most BAW would say no.
To bring this back to the thread topic, the ONLY reason why White women are viewed as the “most beautiful” is because White men have fought just about everybody down through history to make sure that White women can wear that crown comfortably. They have White women’s back. White men have beaten White women’s beauty into the brains of just about every man in the world. I believe that most Black men are too scared to reject White women’s beauty, so to save themselves, they “prefer” it, no matter how the White woman actually looks.
What do the Black men who call themselves “conscious” or “warriors” ever do to help Black women aside from talk.
If Black Women don’t want to fight against conventional physical standards in this country then they should be silent about the issue. Period.
Go out and get some BAM to stand up and fight for Black women instead of pushing women out there to break down the barriers. When BAW lose their jobs or don’t get promoted or are labeled as “troublemakers” because they fought against the social conventions, where are Black men? Do Black men step up to pay their rent or mortgage note? Buy food and clothes for their children? Help them handle the stress?
So, you can try to talk Black women into putting themselves on the line like that. I won’t. Better still, try to persuade Oprah or Michelle Obama to go natural.
One more thing. You want Black Women to be taken on an individual basis. Valid point, but are you willing to do that for members of other racial groups and black men?
Always. I always give individual credit where individual credit is due.
black women choose to relax their toddlers hair too so who has their backs?
What percentage of Black mothers relax their toddlers hair? Say it. I would bet it’s only a small percentage. You’re just stretching hard here to portray Black women in a negative way. I could just as well point at the number of White mothers who push their tiny daughters out there on the beauty queen circuit to compete to be Little Miss Strawberry Festival or something like that. There are some silly mothers in all groups.
laromana says,
Excellent comments, jorbia. I’m sick and tired of seeing MOST BAM do NOTHING to defend the humanity, dignity, and femininity of BW from the MANY/CONSTANT attacks of ANTI-BW RACISM we face at every level of our lives.
It seems that MOST BAM are MOSTLY USELESS when it comes to helping BW fight mistreatment but these same imbeciles are quick to blame BW for the ANTI-BW problems THEY/OTHERS have created/are creating.
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@Hannu–
i find the comparisons between preference and ingrained prejudice interesting, because there is also a thing called acquired taste.
ITA, Hannu! When I read his comment, I thought the same thing. Just because Black men might grow up seeing White women projected everywhere as the most beautiful women, it doesn’t mean that they have to continue thinking that way. There is such a thing as “acquired taste” as you say.
To me, the older I get, the more beauty I see among women of different ethnic features. To me it’s an ongoing progress, evolution of taste. I wasn’t born to like red wine, nor gorgonzola.
I wonder that about BAM who prefer Whiter beauty. Since so many of them complain about Whites and racism, why can’t they evolve to the point of acquiring different or additional tastes that doesn’t prop up racism? They want BAW to respect them, but obviously some of them don’t want to acquire a taste for those Black women who look more Black and have textured hair. I don’t think it’s that Black men can’t acquire new tastes. If you can do it, so can a lot of them. It seems to me that some BAM don’t want to acquire new tastes. They prefer to prefer white women’s beauty. The question is why. I wonder whether it makes to feel more like White men or what?
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@Laromana–
It seems that MOST BAM are MOSTLY USELESS when it comes to helping BW fight mistreatment but these same imbeciles are quick to blame BW for the ANTI-BW problems THEY/OTHERS have created/are creating.
A lot of them want the perks of being men without shouldering the responsibility. They then wonder why some BAW act more verbally aggressive than some other women. The fact is that these women are scared, so they put on a tough act to protect themselves.
If BAW had men to fight for them and protect them the way White women, Asian women, and other women have, BAW would have never needed to learn to try to protect themselves. I’ve seen how a White woman’s tears cause people to rush to help her. A Black woman can cry a river and no one says anything except to scold her. BAW didn’t just wake up one morning and decide to go to “self-protection school” for no reason. But BAM then blame the women for having to protect themselves from mistreatment most often from these same BAM.
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@jorbia
Hmm,yes, on the other hand, acquiring taste means to me that I acquire a wider palette. The fact that I love corgonzola or gruyere dosn’t mean that I would’t appreciate good, domestic cream cheese. Some black guys seem to disown their roots, so to speak.
Like many of u women have noted, in order for u to have a preference in women does not require dissing women of other ethnic backgrounds.
And yes, I prefer BW! (shock)! 😉
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And I refuse to represent “my race” or gender. I’m an individual, and I represent only myself. I don’t feel like I need to defend white women. But I do inist defending ANYBODY against prejudice, black men included.
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@Hannu–
Hmm,yes, on the other hand, acquiring taste means to me that I acquire a wider palette. The fact that I love corgonzola or gruyere dosn’t mean that I would’t appreciate good, domestic cream cheese. Some black guys seem to disown their roots, so to speak.
Yes, I like all kinds of men with all kinds of skin colors, of all ethnic and racial groups, different religions, different hair types or no hair, different heights, different body builds, and so on. If we click, we click. It’s hard to meet a person who makes you feel special, so why close yourself off? That’s just how I feel.
Like many of u women have noted, in order for u to have a preference in women does not require dissing women of other ethnic backgrounds.
ITA. I think this happens with Black Americans because if a BAW says she prefers White men, other Blacks just assume she is dissing Black men, which may not be the case at all. She may not even think about Black men romantically.
And yes, I prefer BW! (shock)! 😉
Nooooo! You don’t mean it. 🙂
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@ Hannu–
I don’t feel like I need to defend white women.
I don’t think that White women are constantly under attack since they’re viewed as the most beautiful women, with all the perks that go along with that. So, they aren’t in need of protection. I think there’s an automatic system that protects them. White men have seen to that.
BAW, as you can see from this board, are constantly under attack here and elsewhere. So, I would expect any man who I’d respect to do his best to protect me from mistreatment. BAM don’t normally do that and instead often tell Black women that it’s our fault that we’re being attacked by whomever it is attacking us.
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@jorbia
I quite look forward to your comments, because we seem to think alike. Admittedly, I came across this blog to find out if black women were attracted to WM. But I was, and still am apalled at the animosity portrayed by BM towards BW dating WM. personally I’m of course delighted that I have more choices. everybody knows how difficult it is to find a lasting relationship. Nobody needs extra hurdles!
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@Hannu–
I quite look forward to your comments, because we seem to think alike.
(Smiling) I feel the same about you.
But I was, and still am apalled at the animosity portrayed by BM towards BW dating WM.
Yeah, it is so weird because so many BAM favor White women and practically any non-Black woman over Black women. The percentage of BAM with White women dwarfs that of Black women with White men here in the U.S., yet BAM will often have a cow when they see a Black woman enjoying herself with a White man. I’ve mentioned some of the nasty comments I’ve gotten.
everybody knows how difficult it is to find a lasting relationship. Nobody needs extra hurdles!
A lasting, really special relationships, even within the same race, religion or ethnic group is becoming more and more rare. So, I’m not about to take on those extra hurdles. When I find the ONE, that’s it!
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@jorbia
If you want to send me a message through fb, my name is hannu lipponen. I’d be delighted to exchange opinions and world views with you.
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YEah, i know white women don’t need special protection. When I’m around women, I feel that they are under special protection. Meaning of course that normally men have the tendency of protecting women of their proximity. and not just because of ulterior motives.
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@Hannu–
If you want to send me a message through fb, my name is hannu lipponen. I’d be delighted to exchange opinions and world views with you.
Well, in that case, I’m Jori. And I’ll look you up on fb in a few days.
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@jorbia
Looking forward to that.
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WarrenAZ, I hope you weren’t referring to me when you said “racially insecure Black women who try to speak on your behalf about hair and skin”.
You didn’t actually say my name but if you have something to say…please share what’s on your mind. There’s no need to throw out petty comments. It is pretty obvious that you were talking about me.
I will have you know that I am not “racially insecure”. I’ve been through a lot but I’m proud of my blackness.
Maybe the reason I shared my perspective is because I’ve actually experienced racism despite looking the way I do. Light skin, long hair, and lots of white blood don’t make me immune to racism.
I wasn’t aware that I need to be dark-skinned in order to care about how other people feel and to empathize with their experiences.
I’m not speaking on anyone’s behalf. I simply see how Black women are belittled and disrespected. I have also experienced this on various levels. I speak from a position of pain. I care about Black women’s issues because they are also MY issues. Being biracial doesn’t change that worth a damn.
Does that clear it up for you?
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I am wondering if anyone can please tell me how the west has made white women look more beautiful in the eyes of men. I feel I am born with eyes liking the beauty of white women but if that is more propaganda than true would really like to know because I love the truth not by way of opinion but the truth
even though beauty is in the eyes of the beholder I would like to know if their is something else contributing as well and how especially if it is the media
I have heard the west has brainwashed us but how?
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IT depends, Interested.
Are you exposed to western media?
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yes I am but how does western media propagate it
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Are 51% of white women beautiful? Hell no!!! If you believe that you are a delusional ethnocentric! Been around plenty of WW on a daily basis and I don’t see what is so special about them. In fact, an ugly white women is not rare to find. If you walk by 100 of them it wont take like to find some fugly ones. Some ugly, some average, & some beautiful.
Too many comments to address, but the one from Chuck & Scipio Africanus stood out from the little comments I read.
This 10% theory is complete BS. If I took the ten hottest white celebrity women and compared them to black celebrity women, I would go with the black list. It’s all subjective. Your declaration that the hottest 10% WW are more beautiful than the hottest black 10% holds no weight.
I somewhat agree w/ Scipio Africanus. Although I do not hold his preferences I don’t accept the theory that whites or racism has influenced “black standards of beauty.” If that was so, wouldn’t this apex of beauty for most black males stop at some Nordic snow bunny like this?
From my experience it seems most black guys would prefer this:
http://www.google.com/search?um=1&hl=en&rlz=1C1RNXN_enUS364&biw=1366&bih=677&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=king+magazine&aq=0&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=king+maga
over the blonde hair, blue eyed look….
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I feel like the media gives the false impression that even average white women are beautiful and that a lot of people have bought into this belief. For instance Zoe Daschanel, Reese Witherspoon, Hillary Swank and Sarah Jessica Parker Naomi Watts, are consistently raved about as being “beautiful” when they are average at best.
If the average white woman looked like Sophia Loren, Grace Kelly, Natalie Portman, Angelina Jolie, Diane Kreuger or Charlize Theron then there might be a case for saying most of them were beautiful.
I suppose if you consider light eyes, skin, and flowing long hair to be beautiful to the exclusion of anything else then yes, white women are more beautiful from that perspective.
If you value full lips, dusky skin and curvaceousness then black women and other women of color are more beautiful.
As a black woman, I’m biased. I think we on balance are more attractive.
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I do believe white standards have affected black males’ idea of female beauty. Every single woman in your second link is wearing fake hair, fake in texture, length and for some even color. Would these women have the same appeal otherwise, sadly, I don’t think so. And pretty much all of them are the same “safe” skin tone. Why? Because the very idea of a “beautiful” woman is racialized.
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@Poetess
“or instance Zoe Daschanel, Reese Witherspoon, Hillary Swank and Sarah Jessica Parker Naomi Watts, are consistently raved about as being “beautiful” when they are average at best.”
Zoe Daschanel is NOT average. She is a really pretty white women. The best looking white girls have dark hair, clear eyes, & pale skin. I usually HATE pale skin on every race, but for some reason this color contrast combination works on them.
Hilary Swank & Sarah Jessica Parker are straight up ugly to me. The rest of those girls are pretty avg
I have considered your theory b4. It sounds the most reasonable to me, so far.
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@Gen
“Every single woman in your second link is wearing fake hair, fake in texture, length and for some even color”
So? That still doesn’t mean white women or racism have anything to do with it. Longer hair just looks better. Unfortunately, kinky hair textures tend to be harder to manage, so it doesn’t grow as long. Even if whites, colonialism, or slavery never existed I doubt black men would prefer shorter hair. Also, I’ve nv heard of a black guys voicing any hair color preferences. I mean I do, but it’s for jet black or darker hair colors…
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@ Cynic
Yeah that snowbunny does nothing for me at all—nothing.
Blond/blue isn’t really my thing. Of course (as in every group) there are a few exceptions.
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I don’t know what’s wrong with admitting the beauty of a white woman. There are some very pretty white women but most are average, as are women of all races. I think most men prefer a woman with healthy, thick hair be it curly, straight or fine.
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@ Cynic
“Longer hair just looks better”. This is an opinion and not a universal rule. An opinion that is shaped by what exactly? Did I say it’s white women’s fault? No, beauty ideals influenced by racism? You bet. That’s like saying light eyes just look better because I said so!
So, essentially, evolution gave black women hair that is found naturally less attractive by their male counterparts and it has little to nothing to do with generations of being sh*t on for being woman while black? Also trying to use texture to explain away issues with length doesn’t compute, because even when wearing short hair styles, many black women feel the need to change their hair texture anyway so its not just about sheer length its about certain ethnic markers being less acceptable on women, black men aren’t compelled to change their texture whether they wear their hair long or short and this is one area where racism and sexism intersects.
Also, “kinky” hair grows just fine, I see it in the mirror everyday and I wouldn’t trade it for having to keep touching up roots when harsh chemicals and worrying about fried hair breaking or overpriced extensions destroying my hairline.
I’m confused how you can strip away white supremacy and think this would still be the outcome. The idea has been challenged and I’m going to leave this here.
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“Longer hair just looks better”
“So, essentially, evolution gave black women hair that is found naturally less attractive by their male counterparts”
What are you saying? Are you saying that Black women don’t have long hair? Where are you getting that idea from?”
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@Gen
“This is an opinion and not a universal rule.”
-Yeah, ur rite it is an opinion. One shared by me and the majority of men in this world. White, Asian, Indian, and Black most men would opt for long hair over short.
“So, essentially, evolution gave black women hair that is found naturally less attractive by their male counterparts and it has little to nothing to do with generations of being sh*t on for being woman while black?”
-Logical fallacy. Straw man. But if you really want an answer than I’ll give it to you. No
“even when wearing short hair styles, many black women feel the need to change their hair texture anyway”-Who said anything about what black women feel compelled to do? I thought we were talking about what black men prefer? I have never seen a black guy sneer at a woman who wore her natural hair texture nor have I seen the white media say ANYTHING negative regarding Afro hair texture in my entire life. Their aren’t even enough blk women rocking natural hair to determine whether most black guys like it or not.
What I can tell you is that the majority of the time I hear the term “good hair” it’s uttered by black women. The only race gender combo I have ever heard say things like, “you need a perm” to women have been other black females…
Why is it that I see so many adolescent black girls w/ straightened hair? Most of these girls are being raised by their single MOTHER and I know their mom isn’t catering to the hair style she thinks the boys on the playground prefer on her daughter. So why would a mother perm her own damn daughter’s hair?
“where racism and sexism intersects.”
-So we were talking about opinions earlier? You still haven’t demonstrated why I should accept this as fact…
“Also, “kinky” hair grows just fine, I see it in the mirror everyday and I wouldn’t trade it for having to keep touching up roots when harsh chemicals and worrying about fried hair breaking or overpriced extensions destroying my hairline.
-The majority of black women are continuously touching up their roots w/ harsh chemicals, frying their hair, or wearing extensions. I think you just proved my point. No matter what blk women do to their hair it will always be naturally kinky. If they do all of the things you yourself say destroys hairlines, aren’t you admitting they aren’t managing it in a way where it will grow?
Like I said b4 the white media & black men aren’t explicitly or implicitly telling black women to straighten their hair, so who is? Do you honestly believe the women on King mag covers would allow themselves to be photographed w/o the weave?
“I’m confused how you can strip away white supremacy and think this would still be the outcome.”
-How are you confused? Bc I’m not one of those people who believes EVERYTHING they hear jus bc it’s said over and over again. That makes no logical sense. This is a nice theory and all, but I’m going to have to see some empirical proof b4 I believe it. Abagond didn’t even provide any sources for his evidence “suggesting” white supremacy has changed black males perception of beauty. White folks are not a bunch of god-like beings that have the magically abilities to make ppl unnatractive. I’m sorry, but I just don’t see how we can blame whites for what ppl prefer.
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@King
“Are you saying that Black women don’t have long hair?”
Yes, the majority of Black women don’t have long hair.
“Where are you getting that idea from?”
My eyes.
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@Gen
You should watch this vid:
2 Things Some People Want to Ignore About Natural Hair
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@ Cynic
Most of the Black women I know who have “short hair” have it because they have used harsh chemicals on it or have mistreated it in other ways. Even I could grow long hair if I liked the style (which I don’t, on a man).
When you think “long hair” do you mean straight & long? How about long/curly?
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One thing we have to remember when we talk about the beauty standards is this: follow the money. M-O-N-E-Y.
The whole billion dollar business is based on beauty standards which absolute majority of women, all women, can not achieve. Be it the hair, the eyes, the belly, the tighs, the butt, what ever.
The industry lives on the frustrations of women. They present imaginary women as standards of beauty and demand in subtle ways that all women should look like this. And today, when all images are photoshopped and/or fake, it is getting even more ridcilous than ever before.
Supermodel Cindy Crawford once said that she has been following her mole. She has one on her face. It moves around or dissappears from picture to picture. She also recalled that one time somebody congratulated her of her beautiful sun tan when there was none: the magazine had published her pictures with a fake photoshopped tan.
The idea that there are standards of beauty, set in stone, is today based on marketing the beauty products. That billion dollar business needs desperate women to buy its lotions, fake nails, eyelashes, hair colors and extentions, this and that. That is all. And notice, they are doing it for men too now a days.
In Finland, where an very old northern macho culture has been alive for decades, no self respecting finnish male ever colored his eyebrows or eye lashes, shaved, used gels or any other fancy pants hair products, lotions and creams, or such. They have been pushing these items for men in Finland for some 25 years now but untill recently it has not been successful.
Today, the younger generation of males, are beginning to use those. When I was in my teens there were no male bulimics or anorexia patients. Now there are. When I grew up, boys went to barber to cut their hair short. Now they do hairstyling. They color their eye lashes. They shave. They have fallen into the trap, just like women.
Truth is this: there can be a woman on a heavy side who is just ashtonising. There can be a short woman who looks absolute beautiful. There can be tall, skinny, black, white, brown, asian women who are just unbelievable beauties. Each one is individual. Looks just like herself and no one else. But still is beautiful.
The so-called beauty standards just fool us not to look beauty but to search women who fit into those standards which are presented by the industry which has billions of dollars at stake here. So beware and recongnize this. It is not about the beauty but the money.
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@ King
I don’t know if you read my comment. The “longer hair” quote was taken from Cynic.
@ Cynic
Really? There are and have been many majority held opinions that need to picked apart. I tend to look past the “what” and check out the “why”. You can’t make a statement like “Long hair just looks better” when someone points out that the women aren’t only changing their length. Now I’m really wondering what do you picture when you think “long hair”. Why do women in general do half these taxing or unhealthy beauty regimens in the first place? Not just so people won’t “sneer” at them, its so they’re not an invisible cast off (media’s current approach to hair is railroading women with shampoos to prevent “frizz” and getting a “sleek, smooth look” and using slogans like “superior preference” etc). If you’re a man, you might not notice these things.
You go on to say not enough black women wear their natural hair to judge whether black men like it or not. Shouldn’t that be a huge red flag? That didn’t just “happen”. A lot of white women dye their hair blonde for white men, some Asian women bleach their skin to appease Asian men, so let’s not try to separate what black women do to their hair from what what black men like and place it square on the shoulders of female paranoia.
Your “observation” on the length of black women’s hair is good enough but Abagond experiences that lead him to say that white supremacy has affected they way black men see beauty isn’t?
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@King
I speaking solely about length. Long healthy Afro textured hair looks better to me than short straightened hair.
@Gen
I tend to look past the “what” and check out the “why”
-This is great. Asking questions is a nice place to start. However, using emotions instead of logic to answer these questions isn’t always the best way to go about things.
media’s current approach to hair is railroading women with shampoos to prevent “frizz” and getting a “sleek, smooth look” and using slogans like “superior preference” etc).
-This is called supply and demand. Those hair companies are giving women what they want. If there was no demand for a “sleek, smooth look” those companies wouldn’t try to supply women w/ a product to achieve it.
I should also add that black men don’t own those hair companies and I doubt white ppl care enough about black hair to denigrate it through the media.
A lot of white women dye their hair blonde for white men, some Asian women bleach their skin to appease Asian men, so let’s not try to separate what black women do to their hair from what what black men like
-This is horrible logic. You can’t just say that bc white & Asian women change their appearance to what their male counterparts prefer that the same is true for black women.
Your making a huge assumption. Like I said b4 many black women are getting their hair straightened by their single mothers at ages where males are not even pursuing them. Why? Your assumption that white supremacy has infested the sexual minds of black males(while curiously bypassing black women?) doesn’t answer this.
Your “observation” on the length of black women’s hair is good enough but Abagond experiences that lead him to say that white supremacy has affected they way black men see beauty isn’t?
-I have no idea why you put that in quotes. I think you’d have to be blind not to concede my observations are true.
I’ll give you a short answer. Yes. Hair length is a physical visible observance. Thoughts(white supremacy in this case) are abstract and therefore harder to judge.
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I just realized I engaged in a debate about whether female beauty ideals would be the same even if history was completely different. As you were.
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@cynic: “This is called supply and demand. Those hair companies are giving women what they want. If there was no demand for a “sleek, smooth look” those companies wouldn’t try to supply women w/ a product to achieve it.”
Well, it is not so simple. In this system the economy does not operate like that at all. The indudstries are very good at creating needs and demand. If I look back my life time, I know for sure that 35-40 years ago nobody “needed” or “wanted” a computer at their home. Nobody even dreamt a life were you are on the reach of a phone 24/7 or imagined that you would need to be. Now these are norms.
Thirty years ago, in Finland at least, it was okay if your blood pressure was say 130/65, 140/70. Now it has to be 120/60 or to the farmacist you go. Why? Demand? No. Somebody wants to sell you some pills.
Thirty years ago people were sad and cried for a while if they had sorrows. Widowns dressed in black for few months up to a year and everybpdy knew that they were in mourning. Now their doctors tell them that this is not normal, that they should go and buy some pills and feel not so sad and get back to work. Why? Demand? Oh no. Somebody wants to sell you some pills.
I remember days when nobody called me at home and still I met all my friends on time. I remember summer holidays when nobody called our family for two months because we were on our summer place which had no electricity. Nobody felt bad about it. Now people get itchy and nervous if nobody calls them all day.
Was there a huge demand for phonecalls? No. Mobile phone industry created that.
I understand your point, but things are not that simple.
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@Gen
Is their something wrong with having such a debate? I don’t understand how you can connect preferences for longer hair w/ white supremacy. Do you attribute the general black male preference for thick thighs and fat asses to white supremacy too?
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@Gen
Just so you know, I love natural hair. I honestly have no preference for straight, kinky, curly, or wavy hair. As long as it looks neat I’m good. Although, long and dark(esp. jet black) is what I prefer. I am not incapable of finding women with short hair attractive. MSNBC news anchor, Tamron Hall, is a great example of a very attractive short haired woman.
This is what I call good hair.
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@ sam:
Very eloquent, and very true! I’ve been in the modeling industry, and know all about the airbrushing, taping, spray-on skin-tones, lighting, photography lenses, hairstylists, makeup artists, personal trainers, personal nutritionists, personal tailors, etc., ad nauseum, ad infinitum…
It costs money to be ‘perfect’ and very few people can afford everything it takes to be considered so. Also, one person’s idea of ‘perfect’ is another one’s idea of “YUCK!!!!”
Ultimately, being yourself is best! 😀
You’ve also asked the question, “How can I (sam) have bedded females of all types, being a short, hairy, Finnish Quasimodo?” (I put words in your mouth and apologize, but that’s the gist of the question) – I can answer that very easily.
One word: CONFIDENCE.
Two words: BEING YOURSELF.
That’s all it takes! 😎
In the words of the late, great Jack Palance:
“Confidence is very sexy…don’t you think?” 😉
In general, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Period.
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sepultura13
beauty, as studies have shown, is actually in the mind of the beholder…
Just saying.
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@sepultra: Confident women who are ok with themselves are the ones that make the hair on my belly curl up. It does not matter too much what kind of a woman she is but if she has no selfrespect, no healthy dose of self esteem and confidence, huge amount of humor, I just can’t get it on. There are no sparks.
But if she has those, then the beauty is in the hands of the beholder.
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from the comments most of what I see is opinion which leads to more debate I prefer to hear the facts some of you have used history studies and population facts i highly disagree with population facts because an entire religion is wrong yet it will have many followers from reasons of ignorance or pride or greed etc…
but i do agree with history because there is always can be an influential source that misleads an entire nation in this case an entire preference
e.g.
fact: the media uses subliminal messages to make white women seem more beautiful
opinion: white women make me vomit
fact: one way that the media make white women seem more attractive is that when you see people acting as false angels you see the angels white to represent the light
yet every woman and man has their own beauty and the eye sees beauty with the mind and eye
fact: with history it has had enough time to send a lot of subliminal messages
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@interested
Everything I’m saying isn’t drawn from opinion. I just don’t believe that:
1)White ppl have a conspiracy to make white women appear more attractive & black women less
2)The media is used as a tool to visually uplift white women
3)That not finding a certain phenotype attractive is racist
4)Racism can affect how ppl view beauty
Here are 2 old sayings from colonial Brazil and Cuba, respectively, that I was reluctant to post earlier bc… well… bc they are pretty damn disgusting. But, since you asked for facts…
Brazil-“Every Brazilian male needs three women in his life” runs a common saying that manages at once to be sexist, elitist, and racist:A white women to bear his heirs, a black woman to cook for him, and a mulata to make love to.”
Cuba-“White women were for marrying, black women for work, and mulatas were for sex.”
From reading these adages you can easily infer that mixed women were considered more attractive to white males in Cuba & Brazil, two racist societies. Mixed people were enslaved in both, considered inferior to white, discriminated against. In fact, up to this very day mixed folks are more likely to be in the lower classes of those societies. Yet, even though this group shares a similar history and status to the black ppl in those countries, white males still manage to prefer mixed of white girls.
I think a lot of white men just aren’t checking for black girls. They don’t find traditional African features appealing. Now this isn’t all of them, but it is a significant amount. I really can’t tell you why, but I don’t believe it is bc of racism.
I think as black ppl we tend to take everything as racial and interpret it as racist. I think this is a bit hypocritical considering that I have encountered many black women who have said that they aren’t attracted to white and Asian men as opposed to black and Latinos.
http://books.google.com/books?id=IWYuUakodQoC&pg=PA311&lpg=PA311&dq=Americas:+the+changing+face+of+Latin+America+and+the+Caribbean+By+Peter+Winn+every+brazilian+male+needs+three+women+in+his+life+common+saying&source=bl&ots=kHsmi50pOH&sig=n3B1km3V8nT1pSfLG1YVTJTc0jg&hl=en&ei=7eXLTbePKNK3tge_ibGKCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=pB6IIKGtP2cC&pg=PA229&lpg=PA229&dq=white+women+were+for+marrying,+black+women+for+work,+and+the+mulattas+for+making+love.&source=bl&ots=zI7SOJf-w4&sig=CZOLcy-CVSpHNZynuxQW2R5avWc&hl=en&ei=_ufLTenyA5G2twfJm8SGCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CFYQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q&f=false
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@ The Cynic:
You should read the sister post to this. Among other things it talks about how a light-skinned Black American woman was pursued romantically and openly considered attractive in Brazil way more so than in America:
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@Abagond
I think it’s ludicrous to suggest that there is no racism towards light-skinned blacks/mulattoes in Brazil.
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I am not suggesting there is no racism, just that it is not the same as in America. Which means that ideas of beauty are affected by racism, that it is more than a matter of mere preference.
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I agree that there is no conspiracy, in the smoke-filled back room sense of the word. I don’t believe that the Imperial Wizard, Steve Sailer, and David Duke are having weekly conference calls in order to control the televised image of “the superior White female.”
However, I do believe that there were certainly instances of media industries uplifting the image of the white woman as a superior type of woman. Much of this was already in the american mindset, and therefore it was easy to sustain the idea even in cases where the bias was not purposeful.
But it is a chicken and egg argument, in a sense. Was it American society prejudice against African-American women that influenced the media? of was it the media who influenced American society to be prejudiced?
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@Abagond
Which means that ideas of beauty are affected by racism
That’s the thing. I don’t believe the racism directed towards lights-skin blacks/mulattoes in Brazil is all that different from the racism directed towards blacks in Brazil or the US for that matter. I have a light-skin black friend from Brazil(currently involved in the blk movement since moving back) who could identify as mulatto if he wanted to and he feels the socio-economic racial issues are the same if not worse in BR.
In Brazil it is not enough to not to just be black. To evade anti-black racism you have to not look black.
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Abagond:
Some black people say that there is no conspiracy amongst the white elite who control corporate america, madison avenue, and hollywood, but, is that really the case? Black people should always do the math, and try to make sense of what their ingesting into their eyes and ears. 90% of what we see in the media is a lie, because, the truth is oftentimes omitted to slant what we’re seeing. Abagond, black people who are fans of your blog know how to decipher what they see and hear in white media, but, that doesn’t apply to all of us. Fox News is a perfect example of what i’m talking about. The blonde-haired, blue-eyed whitewoman is held up as the apex of female beauty, but, how often do you see real blonde whitewomen on network and cable tv. The majority of whitewomen at Fox News are natural brunettes, but, Rupert Murdoch and the gang encourage/force them to dye their hair blonde, Why! If whitemen loved whitewomen so much, why did they rape so many blackwomen? Are whitewomen that naive and clueless about what their white brothers did to blackwomen in africa and the americas? Forcing dark-haired, olive-complexioned whitewomen to whiten themselves is not fooling anybody. If i can figure out the game, i’m sure that other sistas and brothas can do the same. Keeping a lie alive is hard work. Abagond, as i’ve said before on your blog, whitewomen are a means to an end for whitemen, which explains why they spend so much time exploiting them…Playboy, Hustler, Penthouse, Adult Films…the facts speak for themselves. What sane group of men would want other men to desire their women?
Tyrone
Don Aquarius
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@King
The media does not uplift white women as some type of superior women or downgrade black women. Their are ugly and pretty white chicks in movies, television, etc. I have read that the fashion industry prefers white women, but who the hell watches runway shows? If you asked an average black dude to name some models he would say Tyra Banks & Naomi Campbell. The End. He can’t name anymore. Who cares if all of the women on Maxim’s Hot 100 are white. Most black ppl don’t read that sh*t anyways.
I’m going to need specific examples of the media
1)Uplifting white girls(in terms of beauty)
2)Downgrading black, Indian, non-white Hispanic, & other girls
Bc I honestly don’t see it.
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“The blonde-haired, blue-eyed whitewoman is held up as the apex of female beauty,”
not really. white yes but brunette’s seem to be all the rage these days.
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hmm Cynic, really? It’s pretty obvious to me (a white guy) that beauty standards are skewed way white. I absolutely do not believe in conspiracies (people are to incompetent as a rule to manage vast conspiracies) but I do believe in tendencies. And the media in general tends to favor the white standard of beauty.
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Cynic:
You’re right brotha, most brothas that i know don’t know the names of any white models either. But, whites insist on shoving whitewomen down our throats anyway. What gets under my skin is the hypocrisy and arrogance of some white people. They make a big deal about Jennifer Lopez and Kim K having a coke bottle shape, when blackwomen have had it from day one. They made a big deal about Bo Derek having braids, when blackwomen have had braids since the beginning of human history. Blackwomen can’t have the spotlight for themselves in commercials and tv shows…a token whitewoman is included to poke blackwomen in the eye and annoy them. Their mindset is, “We’ll put a brown girl in the commercial, but the white girl is still better.” Whitewomen may think that it’s cute, but, it just digs a deeper hole for themselves over the long haul. And, let’s talk about Jessica Alba and the other morenas in entertainment. They can get magazine covers, cosmetic-ads, and product placement because they’re bronzed and beautiful latinas who owe much of their beauty to blackwomen, but, blackwomen are not given equal consideration, Why? No matter what blackwomen do, the powers-that-be don’t want sistas to win, because, they wanna perpetuate a lie that’s not relevant anymore. Why should non-black women benefit and profit from african beauty and culture, and blackwomen not? Cynic, sistas are our strength, keep them close to your heart?
Tyrone
Don Aquarius
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@cynic: check the so called super models of the 80’s. One of them was black. All others were white.
We are bombarded by images all day long. Somebody estimated that in one week we see 3000 images of thin mainly white women. That is much more than avergage man saw during his life time just 100 years ago.
This bombadment is a form of brainwashing. We are not aware of it because it is constant and everywhere: tv, billboards, commercials, porn, magazines, news papers, even sports. Constant image bombardment 24/7 all of our lives.
And that influences our way of looking at others. We start to think that normal woman is a teenage girl who is 180cm tall and 50 kgs. The concept of beauty seeps into our minds. Unless we are alert, we start to think that this is normal and these are the normal standards of beauty.
There is no conspiracy in a sense that there is a secret conclave of whote middlle aged men who decide: lets make the whote woman number one. It does not work like that. The conspiracy is in everybodys mind, in our own minds, when we start to think that these fantastique creatures of the fashion industry or Hollywood are realistic. Then we are part of that culture which up holds these ideals of beauty.
I give you an example from Finland. Even during the 70’s the sauna culture was very strong in Finland. This meant that when you grew up, you saw your mother, sister, cousins, grandparents, family members and neighbours in the nude all the time. You saw what the real humanbeing looks like at the age of 5, 10,15, 20, 35, 50, 60, 70 etc.
During the 80’s the traditional sauna culture started to decline a bit. What happened? That was the decade that I heard about the first anorectic girls in our school. In the 90’s it had become just one of the problems of young girls. Now, in this millenia, there are bulimic and anorectic boys too, grown women and men with eating disorders etc. because they try to fit in the image of beauty. Where that came from? The media. The industries which make money from this.
And thin white woman is the epitome of this disease or conspiracy in our culture and minds.
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@jas0nburns
The media has absolutely no affect on what men(esp. blk men) find attractive. All the media does is give men what they want and make women insecure.
The biggest socially influenced affects on what a guy thinks is attractive is what his brothers, friends, and community like on women. Not the tv. Black American beauty standards were not created or influenced by whites. They evolved separately for a myriad of reasons. The brunette white woman is not at the apex of this black male standard.
And the media in general tends to favor the white standard of beauty.
Examples?
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Abagond
Have whitewomen waved the white flag, or, are all the brunettes just a passing fad?
Tyrone
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Well Cynic, you probably have to look with a longer eye.
I can remember when I was a kid, and my mom would take me and my brother shopping for school clothes at Sears. I didn’t really think about it back then, but every single model display in the store was of an attractive White woman. All of the sales collateral and in-store board advertising were of White women. Every time an example was give as to, “how this product is supposed to look,” it was demonstrated on a White woman. Now, this was the rule even in stores that were in Black neighborhoods.
My mom was a somewhat zaftig as we were growing up and she used to buy pantyhose for her size, and skin color. However, she always complained because the pantyhose she could find were called “Big Mamas” and the woman on the package looked like some hefty, Black sapphire broad. It was decades before the images of Black women on products went from Aunt Jemima to Mavis Beacon. It was genuinely difficult to find attractive Black women used advertising anywhere.
Now today, it’s quite different (in Los Angeles). When I go into Target, Sears, Macy’s, Nordstroms, etc., all ethnicities are represented and it looks great. However, I have come to understand that it’s not like that everywhere.
There still remains remnants of the the years of media exclusion and misrepresentation that helped to shape the negative image of the Black female, however.
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I think the American media showcases what most white men find beautiful. This isn’t bc of racism, but bc most males in American society are *drum roll please* WHITE!
If you take 100 black men and put them in a room, take another 100 WM and put them in another, and then tell them both to pick their top 25 most beautiful women list, you will wind up with two completely diff list. I seriously doubt the BM list will be filled with snow bunnies.
Sigh… that example prolly want work tho, considering most ppl have it in their minds that all blk men want a white women. So, consider this…
@King
it was decades before the images of Black women on products went from Aunt Jemima to Mavis Beacon. It was genuinely difficult to find attractive Black women used advertising anywhere.
Ummm… are you 4getting how American society portrayed the image of black men in the past?
How is that handsome? As a black male I can honestly say I have nv been made to feel that I have to look white to be considered physically attractive, nor do I feel as if white men are put on a pedestal(as far as attractiveness). In the media all of the “hot guy” roles are filled w/ white men, tho a substantial amnt of BW I know aren’t attracted to them(at least not as much as their own race) and don’t show a significant preference towards mixed/light skin men.
B4 somebody comes at me w/ the, “beauty affects women more” stuff, keep in mind that this doesn’t make male beauty obsolete for women. If a girl had 2 guys who were identical in personality, wealth, & education except one was handsome and the other was ugly, the women will always pick the hot motherf*cker b4 the ugly guy!
So why isn’t any1 claiming white racism has influenced what black females find attractive on a guy?
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Cynic,
I’m sorry, but I strongly believe that the media has more influence on what defines beauty than we want to believe. I’m not saying it’s the main source as white beauty has seemingly been the standard in this society for years, but to leave it out of the equation may be a mistake. I’m just sayin.
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@ cynic,
I think that the script was easier to flip on the Black male stereotypes because of the way that the script was originally drafted.
Whites used what stereotypes against Black men that seemed to make sense at the time. Essentially, they used what was thought to frighten and disgust white women.
Blacks (both men & women)
1
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@ Cynic,
I wouldn’t say that the media has no effect but i agree it’s not quite as adept at brainwashing as many seem to believe.
I have always been more into the Jessica Alba types despite the over representation of light skinned blonds on TV in the 80’s-90’s growing up. I don’t think my preferences came from any outside force really.
The problem as I see it is just that black women don’t really belong in that separate small niche category that the media puts them in.
But to say that the main effect of all this is on Black woman’s self esteem….well yeah, and I think that’s pretty important actually. It’s kind of abusive really.
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@ cynic,
I think that the script was easier to flip on the Black male stereotypes because of the way that the script was originally drafted.
Whites used what stereotypes against Black men that seemed to make sense at the time. Essentially, they used sexual stereotypes calculated to frighten and disgust the sensibilities of the pure and innocent, White female. In fact, these stereotypes were applied to both Black men & women.
1) More animalistic/primitive
2) Lower morality
3) Lower power of self control
4) More aggressive/combative
5) More sexually dominant, less gentle
And for the most part, these descriptions probably did their job back in the days that they were applied. But years later, (after women’s emancipation and the sexual revolution) these traits could be reinterpreted by some White women as follows:
1) Energetic/high stamina
2) Open minded and sexually experimental
3) Uninhibited
4) Voracious/high sexual appetite
5) Manly, decisive, takes what he wants
But those same “race-based sexual traits” are often interpreted for Black women as:
1) Oversexed
2) Nasty/dirty
3) Slutty/easy
4) Intimidating/untrustworthy
5) Manly, hard, ungentle
You can see how the same assumptions can work for a man and against a woman.
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@Brothawolf
I’m sorry, but I strongly believe that the media has more influence on what defines beauty than we want to believe.
I think Madam C.J. Walker got rich off of selling bleaching creams and hair straighteners b4 the tv was invented…
@Jas0n
well yeah, and I think that’s pretty important actually. It’s kind of abusive really.
I agree even though I think there are plenty of white girls w/ self-esteem issues. You see this in eating disorders, plastic surgery(not saying those are restricted to white girls)
@Brothawolf, Abagond, & King
How many black guys do you personally that would co-sign this dude right here vs those who wouldn’t?
I don’t know any in my personal life. I do believe there is a bend towards light skin & softer hair textured women, but I don’t think it is as rampant as everyone says. I don’t see lighter skin & softer hair as being inherently beautiful, but I don’t think these preferences arose from white supremacy either…
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“How many black guys do you personally that would co-sign this dude right here vs those who wouldn’t?”
I’ve known enough of them, in my time.
– The old trophy White wife.
Not saying it’s the majority, by any means, but I think that it represents a reasonable percentage of us (especially athletes)
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@King
What do any of those race-based stereotypes have to do with physical beauty? A woman can still be beautiful and carry all of those negative traits. Of course I doubt many men would consider her attractive.
Now how many of those “reasonable percentage” of black men specifally expressed to you that they wanted a “white trophy wife” bc they found them to be more physically beautiful? Or was it bc of those race/gender stereotypes?
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Because negativity contextualizes one’s perceptions of beauty (or the lack of it). Believing that a woman is a dirty and possible diseased slut effects the way that you appreciate or depreciate her entire appearance.
Most women present a range of appearances, from dressed up and made up to unkept and and undone. What you believe about who they really are is what helps you decide which appearance is the REAL them.
I think that it’s a lot more subjective than most of us think.
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The white women should be asking; Are white men ugly or is it the white women who make them so?
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@The Cynic:
No offense, but you aren’t appreciating or absorbing the scenarios that King, brothawolf, Abagond, and sam have stated. You’ve convinced yourself that “oh, beauty standards can’t possibly be THAT racist, because I don’t see them!” – so you’ve built a wall.
Guess what? Race-based stereotypes DO affect how people interpret physical beaurty! How do I know? Simple: I’ve been in the industry. I was a model a few years back, and I’ve seen/experienced the ugly underbelly.
For instance, did you know that ALL hairstylists are REQUIRED to know how to style the hair of white females, but white hairstylists aren’t required to know hairstyles of all other (non-white) females? I’ll bet you’ll claim that racism isn’t behind that decision, but it is. Fact.
When a woman hears “Wow – you’re really pretty…for a BLACK GIRL” – that’s an offensive, racist disclaimer, meant to demean, insult, and marginalize. Fact.
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Cynic,
I did say, “I’m sorry, but I strongly believe that the media has more influence on what defines beauty than we want to believe.
However, I also said “I’m not saying it’s the main source as white beauty has seemingly been the standard in this society for years, but to leave it out of the equation may be a mistake…”
In other words this has been around for years upon years even before TV, that’s true, but at the same time, media images help make white women not only beautiful, but precious. Like I said, we can’t talk about this issue without involving the media’s role.
As far as the vid goes, I’ve never known any personally, but there are some of us that go that route without question especially in the athletic field for some reason.
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@Sepultura
What a biased response. You can’t tell me I’m not appreciating arguments bc I disagree with the conventional thought around here. I don’t believe racism has affected black beauty ideals or that whites are racist for every damn thing they do. How the hell did that become an iconoclastic idea?
My beliefs are not static. I have no motives that keep me from agreeing with King, Abagond, or anyone else. I listen to facts, logic, and my personal exp. Ill change my mind when I feel I have heard something that makes sense
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Some white women are indeed beautiful but they don’t monopolize beauty. The most beautiful women I’ve come across have always been women of color.
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Abagond:
As blackmen, we can praise blackwomen from sunup to sundown, but, women need to see themselves live and in living color. Sistas love the praise from us, no doubt, but they want their beauty acknowledged for all to see, not just amongst blackmen. Sistas have swagger just as much as brothas do, so, why would we expect any less.
Tyrone
Chocolate…Caramel…Peanut Butter…Pecan…Honey…Lemon-Lime…Berry…Cola…Sweetness
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@cynic I said most…
and here I am seeing more opinions most profoundly weather something is racist or not
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“Some white women are indeed beautiful but they don’t monopolize beauty. The most beautiful women I’ve come across have always been women of color.”
-leigh204
I agree.
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I always wondered whyMOST black women wouldn’t consider white/Asian guys and prefer black/Latino men. Now I know it’s because of their deep seated prejudice and racism.
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i have to say that one thing i love about this blog are the number of eccentrics it seems to attract.
if we’re talking about media when we say society then if you live in a mostly white society you are going to be fed images of white beauty – of men and women.
as some people have already said, most people are average looking. when you walk down the street most white women you see do not like like poster girls. but this is the whole point. the beauty industry makes it’s money off telling us that we do need to dye our hair, we do need to buy slimming tablets, we do need that dress and we’re simply nothing without big voluminous hair.
i currently reside in hong kong and in every subway station that are posters explicitly telling their (already skinny) city to lose weight to look better, the chinese are not even subtle about it lol. in mainland china there were ads in the tv with all these fat ladies admiring this dancing skinny lady. they popped some pills and they transform into happy, dancing skinny ladies too.
i think we should just make the best of what we’ve got and be happy with it. look neat, present yourself well and value yourself a whole person.
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@Jorbia
First you have to prove that I am a man, black, and American. I haven’t given you that information.
You entire argument is built on the strength that I MUST be all 3. So again we have a series of excuses and now an appeal to individualism when you haven’t offered that courtesy to me, whites, or the entire black male demographic in the US.
You what percentages of black mothers who relax their young girls hair (which is something I consider to be abuse) when they aren’t necessary. If most black mothers weren’t relaxing their daughter’s hair then why would Natural Hair be considered “a movement”?
As far as fight social issues, BAW make their lives into a social. It’s a horrible and cheap way to gain sympathy for the inconsequential they bring up now. The sad part is that they past their insecurities to the next generation and the cycle continues.
Can Black Women where their hair how they want to? Sure, they are adults. I never said they couldn’t. But children aren’t given the same option and they grow thinking something is wrong with their hair and if black mothers who do this wouldn’t look for short cuts when they should be managing their time to accommodate their daughter’s appearance properly there would be no need for a Natural Hair Movement…lol.
BAW are insecure about being BAW. I know where that comes from and I understand. Meanwhile when someone says “Hey, you don’t have to be, you have your own standard and you look good.” They get lectured on the preferences of BAM and the indifferent media. I just want to know where their responsibility to your ego ends and where your self esteem begins. That is all.
@Cinnamondiva
I am not familiar with you yet so no, I was not addressing you, your sentiments, or directing any portion of my posts to you.
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My points are simply these.
-BAW do NOT have to conform to anything standard. So the excuse that they have to just that, an excuse.
-The Media and BAM get blamed for how black girls feel about themselves. Only to a certain extent. However the group that is responsible for the insecurities of young black girls/teens in the US are BAW.
1.This is done by relaxing their daughters’, nieces’, and grand daughters’ hair or even making nasty comments about their hair when they do it.
2. Passing on the inferiority complex through media (Mags, blogs/vlogs, FB, Twitter, etc).
In short BAW can handle this situation without the consent or assistance from mainstream media or BAM.
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@WarrenAZ,
I think your wrong. It seems like your trying to speak from a perspective without any credibility.
Here’s my perspective:
1. It wasn’t “BAW” who made me insecure, it was the white girls who made nasty little comments about me when they saw me getting compliments for my features. So, that’s one point debunked.
2. It wasn’t my mother, who made me insecure, because even before I ever relaxed my hair it was to my waist and wavy. Every “BAW” who did my hair complimented it. It was the Panteen Pro-V commercials that only showed white women, it made me feel like I wasn’t pretty. Another point debunked.
3. I was always being demeaned by black men and white people for my looks, it was like I knew I was beautiful, but they were convinced I wasn’t because a black woman is never “beautiful”. I don’t recall walking up to them and saying, “Woe is me, I’m so ugly! Its not fair!” I remember thinking I looked great and having them act like brats about it. So…it can’t be me making my life into some social issue for sympathy…
As to the main post:
The truth is that whiteness (White Privilege and Supremacy) wouldn’t exist without blackness that they could demean. Because whiteness is based on an idea of natural superiority, everything that isn’t white has to be negative for it to work. So, if they were going to be able to say that all white people are beautiful, they would have to say that all black people were ugly. It doesn’t matter that there are plenty of fugly white women who get grouped into the “beautiful” category just for being white, all that matters is that they are white, so they enjoy the benefits.
There are plenty of beautiful white women in the world, and black women, and asian women, etc., but I fear that society still plays a role in reinforcing that beauty for white women, while making sure to debunk that beauty for everyone else.
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@WarrenAZ
-BAW do NOT have to conform to anything standard. So the excuse that they have to just that, an excuse.
-The Media and BAM get blamed for how black girls feel about themselves. Only to a certain extent. However the group that is responsible for the insecurities of young black girls/teens in the US are BAW.
1.This is done by relaxing their daughters’, nieces’, and grand daughters’ hair or even making nasty comments about their hair when they do it.
2. Passing on the inferiority complex through media (Mags, blogs/vlogs, FB, Twitter, etc).
In short BAW can handle this situation without the consent or assistance from mainstream media or BAM.
co-sign
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@ sailorscout
I think that you perhaps believe that in order for racism to be racism, it must be malicious and blatantly intentional from root to twig. That is not the case. However, when you poison the root, the rest of the tree cannot help but be effected.
When you start out race relations, in the US by killing and displacing the original population; then forcibly importing a dark-skinned population to serve as your labor beasts; and finally trick poor class Chinese here, as indentured servants, then you’ve poisoned the root.
There is already an obvious and historical assumption that Whites are superior to the original savages, the imported slaves, and the oriental servants. So when all the advertising in the country shows beautiful White people for the next 100 years of history (to the exclusion of all others) these ideas will be further reinforced and that will be “racism” whether that’s what was intended or not.
Now, I’m not saying that things could have been much different, at the time. I mean, the attitudes of racial prejudice already existed, and even if the advertisers had been ‘enlightened angels’ of racial equality, they could not have sold soap by using images of Blacks as equal to Whites. BUT THE INABILITY TO PRESENT SUCH IMAGES WAS ITSELF, A RESULT OF THE INTERTWINING INFLUENCE OF PREJUDICE.
You see, the marketing was not based on simple demographic choices—if it were, then they would simply represent Blacks as equal members of society when advertising in majority Black customer-bases. This would have certainly boosted their sales and promoted brand loyalty among their Black customers. But they didn’t do this because the primary driving force was not demographic, or economic, but was racial.
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@king: well said. It is in the culture. There is no conspiracy but in our minds. Very few if any people working in the fashion industry think themselves as racists but the conventions are just that. This is because, just like you said, the beginning is the beginning of the american racism.
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@King
What does killing Native Americans have to do with the media, race, and beauty? Your entire comment is in past tense. Its 2011. Only a little over one out of ten ppl in America are Black. Why is it surprising that most ppl in the media are white when they make up the majority? I’m flipping thru the channels on tv right now and I see a ridiculous amount of black ppl in news, commercials, & shows compared to our proportion of the population.
The tv, music, radio, and movies really aren’t that racist at all. Fashion prolly is and the news media is def racist. The fashion industry is the only thing I can see affecting beauty and most black folks(esp. men) don’t pay attn to it.
This is the thing. If you see racism in an institution quit being optimistic about it! Especially if that racism/prejudice is implicit. Go out and create your own magazine, show, movies and showcase the type of beauty you want. Its much more pro-active than worrying about white perceptions of us.
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White people are racist for finding other whites attractive?
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@ Cynic
The history is important because of social inertia.
If the facts that you are working with are that a car went right past the offramp, you may conclude that the driver did not wish to get off there.
But if further facts could inform you that the car was moving at 160 mph when the driver noticed the offramp sign, it changes the story somewhat.
In one case, it’s just about choice. In another case, it’s about how much time it takes to slow down, and change course.
America had been moving in a certain direction for hundreds of years. What I, and a few others, are saying is that our current trajectory is still influenced by the kinetic realities of that original course. We can’t analyze this as if history had come to a complete stop, and then we all decided on a new direction.
“The tv, music, radio, and movies really aren’t that racist at all.”
You’re right, it’s sooo MUCH better than it was before! But that change happened because of advocacy which began with discussions such as we are having right now. That is why these discussions continue online and elsewhere. They have been effective, and there are still some aspects that can benefit from the light of awareness.
“This is the thing. If you see racism in an institution quit being optimistic about it! Especially if that racism/prejudice is implicit. Go out and create your own magazine, show, movies and showcase the type of beauty you want. Its much more pro-active than worrying about white perceptions of us.”
You’re saying that it’s not possible to do both? You cannot address and discuss perceived wrongs AND battle racism by doing your own thing?
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“White people are racist for finding other whites attractive?
Of course not, but it’s a question of degree.
If a White person believes that White people, as a whole, are objectively more attractive than Black people as a whole, then yes, it’s racism.
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There is a relatively low percentage of the women in the world today who you could scrub all the makeup off of, wet their hair and brush it back, dress them in a simple, gray, tunic, and honestly call them stunningly beautiful.
There are only a few.
The rest are helped by wealth.
Cosmetics
Hair Products
Cosmetic Dentistry
Plastic Surgery
Skin Products
Medicine
Personal Trainers
Time
If you are not wealthy (1st World), you will likely not have the access, the means, or time to spend on being beautiful. This often reinforces the idea that Whites are more beautiful because they have had (in past years) the greatest access to beauty.
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@King
“The history is important because of social inertia.”
The history has not created social inertia. Racism has not made white women seem more beautiful. Most white folks are simply accustomed to their own features and make up the majority race. This is why they showcase this in the media.
“If a White person believes that White people, as a whole, are objectively more attractive than Black people as a whole, then yes, it’s racism”
No, it’s really just a preference and opinion. I suppose you think Abagond is a racist for writing these post:
-https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/12/08/what-i-like-in-black-women/
“First, black women are beautiful. They have the prettiest eyes and the best figures.”
“pale skin turns me off.”
-https://abagond.wordpress.com/2007/11/27/black-women-are-beautiful/
But for me black women are the most beautiful women in all the world.
I used to tell myself that I like all races of women equally, but it’s just not true. I like certain things in women and black women are way more likely to have them”
You should also read his PC beauty post. FEW ppl are truly subjective in what they find beautiful. This is why you guys absolutely refuse to believe white ppl can’t have preference w/o racism.
You’re saying that it’s not possible to do both? You cannot address and discuss perceived wrongs AND battle racism by doing your own thing?
Of course it’s possible, it’s just a waste of time. Putting a band-aid on a gaping wound doesn’t solve anything if in fifty, sixty years later you are still bleeding
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All right then – since my words are obviously too complex, long, and ‘lashing-out/hostile’ to some, check out this link below:
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/mom-year-daughter-botox-young-young/story?id=13580804
This is a far cry from some BAW braiding or straightening the hair of their daughters with harsh chemicals, but some want to vilify everything BAW do – and that’s pathetic. 🙄
When a girl who isn’t even close to puberty says: “I can’t wait to get a nose job and boob job so I can be beautiful and win pageants!” – that is a child who has been brainwashed and psychologically abused. Anyone who believes that these actions are normal and not of concern, are just as insane and mentally damaged as those abusive ‘pageant moms’.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1386312/Pageant-mum-gives-year-old-daughter-BOTOX-WAXES-legs.html
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Abagond:
The subject of whitewomen is not a trivial thing. Some people may think that a bunch of black folk having a combo about the negative consequences of shoving another race’s beauty standards down the throat of a specific race is comical, Nope! Telling blackwomen that their hair, eye-color, nose, lips, hips, and butts are less than because they’re of african descent is evil, and everybody knows it. Blackwomen don’t walk around telling whitewomen that their straight hair, thin noses, thin lips, small breasts, and flat butts are unattractive, but, whitewomen feel that they have the right to critique the beauty of blackwomen. Women who truly love themselves don’t hate on the beauty of other women. Abagond, blackwomen don’t get down like that, sistas love their big brown eyes, regal noses, kissable lips, ample breasts, wide hips, and apple bottoms. Sistas are not jealous of any other group of women on this planet, but, I can’t say the same thing in regard to non-black women. Whitewomen have issues with blackwomen, asian women have issues with blackwomen, native-american women have issues with blackwomen, etc. Blackwomen deserve ownership of their unique beauty and culture, but other women see it differently. Women are catty, and always have been, but the bs that takes place today is offensive as hell. Blackwomen created african, latin, jazz, and hip-hop dance, and now all of a sudden non-blackwomen are better dancers, Really? Blackwomen along with blackmen created “Greek Stepping” at historically black colleges and universities, but now white and latin women who are in college think they created the dance form, How So? The mainstream media in this country and beyond assaults the intelligence of blackwomen on a daily basis, and yet, the same media has no problem committing cultural theft for their own financial benefit. “Colorblind Racism” is the worst kind of racism, because it insults your intelligence. White latin women act like their s**t doesn’t stink because they have black blood in them, but blackwomen are treated as second-class in latin-america. And, non-black latinos in the US want to inject themselves into african-american culture in this country, despite, being fully aware of their hypocrisy in latin-america. Sistas have to “REVERSE IT.”
Tyrone
Black Diamond
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1. You were insecure AFTER getting snide remarks that FOLLOWED compliments? My point was not debunked, you decided whose opinion was more valid for yourself.
2. No you decided to internalize what you saw on the tube and became insecure even after being complimented. Again all you.
3. So let me get this straight; BM and WW have made you insecure about your looks? Let’s start with the fact that unless you are a lesbian, choosing to make WW’s comments a priority was unnecessary and again your choice. BM had an issue with your looks but did any other men?
If the answer is “No” than a case can’t be made for media influence because all men AND all women-including BW should have been influenced, you would have never been complimented in the first place.
If the answer is “Yes” than why weren’t they mentioned considering that I never mentioned WW but you did?
The experiences you mentioned are incomplete so I can’t accept your premise.
My points still stand too. Either you made the choice to be a victim of media manipulation or the BW in your life didn’t equip you with enough confidence or perspective to see things as they are. Either way there is a BW at the root of why you felt/feel the way you do.
Your sentiments only have as much strength as you’re willing to give them and in this case you’re asking for a majority white society to elevate BW (from anywhere) to the same status as the largest consumer demographic in this country and for what? What do they have to gain from doing such a thing? I know what white society used to do to black women and their image, everybody does. And I also know that black women have had enough resources in the past 30 years to promote whatever they wanted to see and the opportunity to do it big. Instead they wait to be accepted into a realm that was not created for them in the first place. Now we have the internet, another opportunity for BW to showcase themselves anyway they choose. Complaints should be followed by solutions and so far all we’re getting is excuses.
I listed the advantages BW/BAW have in the beauty realm and all I got was why “some” black women can’t……from BW.
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“The history has not created social inertia. Racism has not made white women seem more beautiful. Most white folks are simply accustomed to their own features and make up the majority race. This is why they showcase this in the media.”
Cynic, what you’re saying is not possible if you really think about it. You’re saying that exclusive self-promotion of one race (to the exclusion of all others) will NOT make that race seem more beautiful? If what you’re saying is true, then you may correct the entire history of advertising, and image association, because it does not work.
Again, I am not judging the MORALITY of it all, I’m only judging what the results of such actions would be.
[Whites believing that Whites are objectively Better Looking] “No, it’s really just a preference and opinion.”
No, it would be an opinion only if the word objective were to be replaced with subjective, but as the statement stands, it would racist.
I suppose you think Abagond is a racist for writing these posts”
No, because Abagond seems to be talking only about his own subjective likes and dislikes. He is not under the illusion that his beauty preferences represent any greater measure of truth than anyone else’s preferences.
“Of course it’s possible, it’s just a waste of time. Putting a band-aid on a gaping wound doesn’t solve anything if in fifty, sixty years later you are still bleeding”
I don’t understand, earlier in this post you were saying that television media is not that racist anymore. But fifty or sixty years ago there were still Colored entrances in restaurants and we were watching Amos and Andy.
What is this ineffective band aid?
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@King
You’re saying that exclusive self-promotion of one race (to the exclusion of all others) will NOT make that race seem more beautiful?
-White people don’t self-promote themselves as anything, but normal. The prototype humans. They can be good, evil, ugly, beautiful, smart, dumb. Nowhere in the media do white folks ONLY show themselves as being beautiful while making blacks ugly. You’ll have to go back in time to find that ish in mass bc Pepsi Max type commercials are rare.
No, it would be an opinion only if the word objective were to be replaced with subjective, but as the statement stands, it would racist.
-When have white folks in general ever said that their racial preferences in attraction weren’t subjective. Either way stop acting as if their MOST human beings make it a point to say this is what I find beautiful. If I told someone Halle Berry was butt-ugly, just disgusting looking they would look at me like I was mental. Why? Bc most ppl don’t truly believe beauty is objective. Even Abagond agrees w/ that last statement:
No, because Abagond seems to be talking only about his own subjective likes and dislikes.
-I don’t believe this. I think Abagond has the same views on beauty as these “racist” whites in the media. Just switch the race from white to black.
I don’t understand, earlier in this post you were saying that television media is not that racist anymore. But fifty or sixty years ago there were still Colored entrances in restaurants and we were watching Amos and Andy.
-I was speaking through your beliefs, not mine. You believe the media is still plenty racist. Racist enough to brainwash black ppl up til this very day. If you still see the problems fifty years later why would you think you will continue to make strides though complaining to whites? Are you waiting another 50yrs for that half empty glass to become full?
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@WarrenAZ
Co-sign again, however, you’re attempts to get thru to these guys are probably useless. They make blacks seem so weak and pitiful. If all it takes is one white woman flinging her hair around for 30 seconds in an ad to make blk ppl hate themselves, then our race is doomed!
Black people ARE victims. It is true that we have been raped, exploited, and abused. However, what type of sense does it make for a rape victim to ask their rapist for bus fare right after they’ve been taken advantage of?
@Everyone
Stop BEGGING for white acceptance. It’s like watching slaves who refuse to run away from the plantation until massa says he loves them. If you feel white controlled institutions are discriminating against you, then create your own damn institutions and run them how you like. White ppl are ALWAYS going to have prejudice & racism. Everybody else does(even blacks!), so why would you expect it to change to a point where blks can become fully integrated?
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@King
What is this ineffective band aid?
Affirmative Action, tokenism, integration, and generally begging white ppl to accept us as if they are God-like beings a child-like race needs in order to do anything this world.
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@King
Bc most ppl don’t truly believe beauty is *subjective. Even Abagond agrees w/ that last statement:
“Politically correct beauty (c. 1977- ) is the idea that all races of women are equally beautiful. Black women are as beautiful as white women are as beautiful as Asian women. Like in a Benetton ad.
Many people say they believe it – and want to believe it – but few truly believe it deep down.”
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-White people don’t self-promote themselves as anything, but normal.”
I’d say that it’s getting there. I personally see very little blatant racism on television today. These days when there is racism, it usually goes on in the casting and writing end of the business. The idea that a black actress can’t play that part or not writing an Asian man to play a certain role.
As I have implied earlier, most of the blatant racism is past tense, but still relevant because it’s implications still have shaped the ideas of many people who grew up on it.
“When have white folks in general ever said that their racial preferences in attraction weren’t subjective.”
Well, it used to be assumed all of the time, in past generations, but today there are still some remnants of it. It can probably be best seen in modeling agencies who will send White models to shoot for publications all the world, but assume that Black or Asian models do not possess the same kind of universal beauty.
“most ppl don’t truly believe beauty is objective.”
Well beauty isn’t isn’t completely subjective, there are clearly some universals, but beyond that, there are more individualized preferences.
“I think Abagond has the same views on beauty as these “racist” whites in the media. Just switch the race from white to black.”
You mean that you believe that he is a Black beauty Supremacist?
“You believe the media is still plenty racist. Racist enough to brainwash black ppl up til this very day.”
I have said that media has improved drastically from what it once was. But as for the effects of past racism, it was a combination of influences that range from racist legislation, media, and social norms. All of those things have had an effect on many people who grew up under them, and as a result passed on the distrust, anger, or hopelessness, to their children. This is why certain kinds of systemic, society-wide problems don’t disappear in 50 years, but often take a generation or two to resolve.
“Stop BEGGING for white acceptance.
There is a difference between begging for acceptance, and simply calling out inequality when and where you see it, not just for Blacks but for everyone.
[Ineffective Bandaids]”Affirmative Action, tokenism, integration…”
Three of those things have brought a lot of progress to people along the way. The fact that the did not bring with them Nirvana riding on a unicorn does not make them ineffective, in my view of things. Nothing is perfect.
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I believe it. I don’t think that all races of women are beautiful IN THE EXACT SAME WAY, but I think that they all present their ow unique brand beauty. I ‘ve made this analogy on this site somewhere in the distant past.
If you are familiar with art, it may make some sense to you. Most people begin with loving art that is super realistic. They appreciate the skill it takes to reproduce reality. But often people are introduced to more interpretive styles, like impressionism or expressionism. Most people start out hating modern art (my 3 year old could have painted that!) until they really get into it and then they love it.
My point is that you can appreciate each artistic style/movement with a different eye, and for different reasons. You have to understand the movement first, and then you begin to get the beauty.
I feel the same things about women of different ethnicities. I can see different things to admire in each case, and they’re all beautiful in different ways.
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@King
The idea that a black actress can’t play that part or not writing an Asian man to play a certain role.
-And yet, you nv seem to want to talk about blacks creating their own institutions?
Well, it used to be assumed all of the time, in past generations, but today there are still some remnants of it.
-So should we cry bc white ppl think we are ugly? Who are the hell r white people for us to give a damn what they find attractive?
It can probably be best seen in modeling agencies who will send White models to shoot for publications all the world, but assume that Black or Asian models do not possess the same kind of universal beauty.
-So why can’t black people start their own modeling agencies?
You mean that you believe that he is a Black beauty Supremacist?
-Yes.
This is why certain kinds of systemic, society-wide problems don’t disappear in 50 years, but often take a generation or two to resolve.
-No, it’s bc we don’t want to create our own institutions that shield us from this shit. Instead we throw pity parties about how much our white Gods wont accept us.
There is a difference between begging for acceptance, and simply calling out inequality when and where you see it, not just for Blacks but for everyone.
-I am aware that there is a difference btwn acknowledging racism and victimology. I made no typos…
Three of those things have brought a lot of progress to people along the way.
-Nope. All they have done is:
1)Allowed a significant number of blacks to believe we are fully integrated into this country and that the civil rights era is over and
2)created lingering racial tensions that could of been quashed w/in a couple of decadesa(wth did you think was fueling HDBism?)
Basically it’s a band-aid covering a gaping wound.
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@King
The idea that a black actress can’t play that part or not writing an Asian man to play a certain role.
-And yet, you nv seem to want to talk about blacks creating their own institutions?
Well, it used to be assumed all of the time, in past generations, but today there are still some remnants of it.
-So should we cry bc white ppl think we are ugly? Who are the hell r white people for us to give a damn what they find attractive?
It can probably be best seen in modeling agencies who will send White models to shoot for publications all the world, but assume that Black or Asian models do not possess the same kind of universal beauty.
-So why can’t black people start their own modeling agencies?
You mean that you believe that he is a Black beauty Supremacist?
-Yes.
This is why certain kinds of systemic, society-wide problems don’t disappear in 50 years, but often take a generation or two to resolve.
-No, it’s bc we don’t want to create our own institutions that shield us from this sh*t. Instead we throw pity parties about how much our white Gods wont accept us.
There is a difference between begging for acceptance, and simply calling out inequality when and where you see it, not just for Blacks but for everyone.
-I am aware that there is a difference btwn acknowledging racism and victimology. I made no typos…
Three of those things have brought a lot of progress to people along the way.
-Nope. All they have done is:
1)Allowed a significant number of blacks to believe we are fully integrated into this country and that the civil rights era is over and
2)created lingering racial tensions that could of been quashed w/in a couple of decadesa(wth did you think was fueling HDBism?)
Basically it’s a band-aid covering a gaping wound.
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-And yet, you nv seem to want to talk about blacks creating their own institutions?
Well, what do you mean? Like Tyler Perry, or FUBU, or more like Farrakhan or Marcus Garvey’s ideas about a Black economy?
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‘in this case you’re asking for a majority white society to elevate BW (from anywhere) to the same status as the largest consumer demographic in this country and for what? What do they have to gain from doing such a thing? I know what white society used to do to black women and their image, everybody does. And I also know that black women have had enough resources in the past 30 years to promote whatever they wanted to see and the opportunity to do it big. Instead they wait to be accepted into a realm that was not created for them in the first place.’
This.
This begging for acceptance from a group who couldn’t give a damn about blacks is baffling to me. We really need to just start doing/sorting out things ourselves. This is the point I make in pretty much every post. But for a change this beauty topic is not something I care about anything to write a novel about.
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@King
What do you mean, what do I mean? If banks wont give out loans to ppl in your neighborhood, go start your own damn bank. If white people aren’t putting you on tv, go make a damn tv show. If white people wont hire you, create your own damn business. It’s not hard.
And no, I am not talking about low-grade basic sh*t like Tyler Perry’s work.
Well, what do you mean? Like Tyler Perry, or FUBU, or more like Farrakhan or Marcus Garvey’s ideas about a Black economy?
None of this is enough. If it was, black people wouldn’t be in the situation we’re in now. I don’t listen to Farrakhan and I know little about Marcus Garvey’s ideas.
All I know is complaining creates no results. Institutional racism has been explained over and over again in this blog. After saying, “white people are racist” in a thousand different ways I think ppl get the idea. If we know racism is never going to go away and that it hurts blacks why not talk about what we can do about?
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I’m not sure if this goes off topic but I put my few cents in:
@cynic, sailorscout:
This, I think, is not about begging anything from whites, acceptance or anything else. This is about racism. As long as white woman is considered automatically to be the epitome of beauty, the beauty standard, which in many cases she still is, the race is defining thing.
This is cultural thing. How old this concept is? Just look at the religious paintings from whenever times till today and how many black Eves you see in those? And yet, biologically, Eve should be black, if there would be any honesty in the whole story. But she is white. As is Adam.
So when you think the beauty standards in USA, you have to understand that this thing has its roots in the minds of the very first white settlers. For majority of them, in 1600’s, blacks were not even humanbeings. This went on for a very long time. First cracks came after the French revolution, The Hatian black revolution etc. Maybe blacks were humanbeings after all? Whites were still debating did the native americans and blacks even have souls at that time.
Still after the aknowledgement that blacks were humans too, there was no black beauty. Some white men aknowledged mythical “black princesses” in Africa, but not in USA. In USA blacks were domesticated work force, slaves and servants. They were usefull, childlike semi-humanbeings, and their looks were the same as with perhaps in cute puppies. This was not only the concept in USA.
My friend has an old book, Maailman ihmeitten kirja, The Book of Wonders of the World, finnish print of a foreign fact book. It was printed in 1911. This is my transaltion of what it says in one chapter (with pictures to prove the point): “Modern science has brought us from Africa during the recent years the big humanlike apes and very small apelike humanbeings”. They are talking about pygmies and gorillas.
The idea of that black women, or men, could be even considered as beautiful is very recent in the larger framework. Before WW1 it was practically unheard of. After WW2 it started to bubble under. Underground blues and jazz world, speakeasies and their exotic floor shows with good looking black dancers started a very slow and very silent change. There were beautiful black women in US after all, but not officially. Not for a long long time. Lena Horne still had too look vaguely exotic in order to make it. Billie Holiday and others still faced enourmous obstacles.
Black women became normal in movies in 1950’s, in small parts, small films. That is why in 1960’s the whole Black is Beautiful theme rose up. Black was beautiful but somebody had to say it out loud. It was only after the cultural revolution of the 60’s that the wider population and the mainstream media accepted the fact.
But still, in 2011, the basic assumption is that a beautiful woman is white, or at least looks more white. It is so deep in the mind of us. That is why it is important to know it and bring it down. It is part of the racist history and culture, tradition which we are trying to get rid off.
As good as it sounds to put up your own magazines and fashion things “for blacks”, that is volunteering to walk into the ghetto. Those jews who accepted and co operated with the nazi regime (for various reasons) accepted that jews must have their own separate living areas and institutions and walked straight in to those ghettoes were they could be jews, just like the nazis wished.
Apartheid was the same system. Same went in Australia untill 1970’s. Blacks over there, whites over here. Minority on its own and the real world over here.
I say No. More mixing, the better. In images, pictures, movies, relationships, cultures, in everything. That is the way to bring down racism. That is the way to realise that there is only one race in this world and that it is truly The Human Race.
Sorry about the preaching. Peace! 😀
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“What do you mean, what do I mean? If banks wont give out loans to ppl in your neighborhood, go start your own damn bank.”
You mean like One United Bank?
https://www.oneunited.com/
or Carver Federal?
https://www.carverbank.com/home/home
They do exist. But should we then stop calling out predatory banking practices in our community from all other banks? Should Black people all use the same Black banks? Is it impossible to both have Black-owned banks and still discuss and act when other banks act badly?
But in the case of media, and how it effects the perception of Black female beauty in society, I suppose the analog would be to create Black media companies…
Like BET, Def Jam, or more recently Tyler Perry!
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@Sam
Idgf what the hell white people think they are. They can believe whatever the hell they want about themselves. Who tf are whites for blacks to give a damn?
@King
“They do exist.”
-Wow, 2 out of the 40 million blacks in the US. It’s great that they exist. Now we need to worry about their expansion.
“But should we then stop calling out predatory banking practices in our community from all other banks?”
-Yes. Racism, classism, & prejudice will NEVER end. Black people shouldn’t have to beg for anything. Why would blacks even want to do business with an anti-blk racist institution?
“Should Black people all use the same Black banks?”
If the rest of them are exercising anti-blk discrimination, then yes.
“Is it impossible to both have Black-owned banks and still discuss and act when other banks act badly?”
“You’re saying that it’s not possible to do both? You cannot address and discuss perceived wrongs AND battle racism by doing your own thing?”
-You asked me this exact same question up-thread, so I’ll give you the exact same answer.
“Of course it’s possible, it’s just a waste of time. Putting a band-aid on a gaping wound doesn’t solve anything if in fifty, sixty years later you are still bleeding”
“Like BET, Def Jam, or more recently Tyler Perry!”
-Great and if that is not enough, we should expand.
_____
King, now you just making excuses. Your’e saying the problem is that these white dominated institutions are discriminating against black people, but when I suggest replacing those discriminatory institutions w/ blk friendly ones you want to make it seem as if they wont work.
You have a bad case of White God-complex. You don’t think black institutions will work bc you don’t believe blk ppl can do anything. We are a child-like race that needs white Gods to fix everything for us. We talk about black pride, black power, but you make us out to look weak and pitiful.
I’m not taking this p*ssy sh*t anymore. White ppl are not important enough for us to care about their perceptions of us. I’m not going to have you fight to make black people ugly, as if we should care about some superficial subject. Life ain’t fair. If white supremacy is our competition then we should accept and win this battle gladly. Whites have no incentive to give up their racism, so stop believing you can make it go away. Evade that sh*t. It doesn’t matter. Quit beggin for acceptance.
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“King, now you just making excuses. Your’e saying the problem is that these white dominated institutions are discriminating against black people, but when I suggest replacing those discriminatory institutions w/ blk friendly ones you want to make it seem as if they wont work.”
Looking back at my posts, I don’t see that I’ve done that.
What I have said is this:
– There has been much progress in racial justice due to the efforts of those who have been “complaining” and demonstrating until finally laws were changed and over the years, even many attitudes.
– The history of ingrained White supremacy, in the US culture has lessened, but it will lessen even more dramatically, when people who were brought up under the harsher aspects of it (both Black and White) have passed away.
– But in the mean time, it is useful to continue to exert social pressure in order to continue the curve of progress which has brought us past and present successes.
– This can be done concurrently wile establishing our own businesses and institutions.
– Therefore, I agree that everything is not perfect, but I think that we should continue to address our grievances, first to one another, (consensus building) and then to the appropriate or offending institutions, as necessary.
—————————————————————-
I’m not taking this p*ssy sh*t anymore. White ppl are not important enough for us to care about their perceptions of us.
I’m not fighting against White people, in general, I’m resisting the remnants of a longstanding White-favoring system that is often exercised, not only by Whites, but even by minorities against themselves, and other non-White groups.
For me, part of that is being part of the discussion, both here and in other public forums. Another aspect of my resistance is in the real world, at work, talking to friends, donating money to causes that I think are fighting the problems I care about.
Flaws in my thinking?
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@King
These are your main flaws:
I think that we should continue to address our grievances, first to one another, (consensus building) and then to the appropriate or offending institutions, as necessary.
-Stop believing these institutions(really the ppl w/in them and society at large) are ever going to give a damn.
But in the mean time, it is useful to continue to exert social pressure in order to continue the curve of progress which has brought us past and present successes.
-Social pressure on who? Whites? If that is who you are talking about, then no. Complaining and throwing pity parties are not useful. Whining is what ppl w/ no power do. Pity parties do nothing, but make blacks believe we are helpless in this racist society w/o white Gods.
This can be done concurrently wile establishing our own businesses and institutions.
-Thing is, this isn’t being done bc we are wasting time complaining. Which is the exact reason why we should stop doing it.
The discussion is over. It’s gone on long enough. We know about institutional racism, prejudice, stereotypes, & stigma. Now it is time for us to combat it along with re-adjusting the cultural problems that are failing us.
Black People Should Be Less Emotional
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-Stop believing these institutions (really the ppl w/in them and society at large) are ever going to give a damn.
No matter how much progress has been made?
“Complaining and throwing pity parties are not useful. Whining is what ppl w/ no power do. Pity parties do nothing, but make blacks believe we are helpless in this racist society w/o white Gods.”
The test of “being a grown up race” is not isolationism. Nobody expects Black people to live in a majority White country without interacting economically with White people. What other race do we judge because they are not completely separated and independently operating?
“-Thing is, this isn’t being done bc we are wasting time complaining. Which is the exact reason why we should stop doing it.
I don’t know of anybody who didn’t start a business because they had budgeted so much time to complaining, that there was no time for starting a business. In fact, my barber does a very good job of doing business and complaining all at the same time.
“The discussion is over. It’s gone on long enough. We know about institutional racism, prejudice, stereotypes, & stigma. Now it is time for us to combat it along with re-adjusting the cultural problems that are failing us.”
I would argue that we have been combating it (which accounts for past and present progress). But I’m all for re-adjusting the cultural problems that are failing us, as well.
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@King
This debate has ran its course. Just know I think your wasting your time with a useless endeavour. Pity parties our not productive. In fact, I believe they are hurting the black community. Keep waiting on your white Gods to save you
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” Just know I think your wasting your time with a useless endeavour.”
Fair enough, then we must agree to disagree, on this point.
…although, I don’t completely disagree that true “pity parties” harm the Black community. I just don’t define pity parties in the exact same way that you do.
Keep waiting on your white Gods to save you
I’m not waiting for perfection or racial salvation. I’m just trying to make things better in the best ways that I can. In this case, I happen to think that, in present circumstance, the “Livin’ without Whitey,” idea is a dead end.
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@sailorscout1986
That about sums it up and it sends the right message.
@Cynic
You are correct. If everything blacks do is based on the relevancy of white guilt and participation blacks will never solve anything.
Every act of normal civility extended from whites in terms of romance, friendship, education, employment, and exposure will be seen as a HUGE gesture of kindness. This is how people are supposed to treat each other but blacks will see it as a mission accomplished. I’m not talking about completely isolating blacks from whites, unless you personally feel you must, this is about not making them relevant or a barometer in solutions.
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@cynic: Frustration? Understandable but if your grandparents and their parents would have isolated themselves into some kind of “Only for and by Blacks” ideology, there you would be still in, all of you. White USA and the elites would have been more than happy to have isolated blacks into reservations with seemingly black companies and black institutions, totally controllable from outside with the same power structures that still have a hold from the system.
Self imposed racial separation, “positive” apartheid is a very dangerous trap for any minority. It means that majority can forget the whole issue and walk away from any restructuring of its conventions.
Building new walls, creating voluntary apartheid, these are not solutions. Tearing down the last ones, ripping apart the last racist conventions in the culture and society, are.
When nobody mentions the color of skin anymore, when it really does not matter what level of melanin you have, when there is no need to mention race in news or magazine stories or what ever, then the american racism is done. Not before.
When Denzel Washington is no longer a black actor or Halle Berry the black actress, when Beyonce is no longer a black super star and so on, racism is dissapearing. When there is no longer reports about poor blak communities but just poor communities, the idea of race as defining thing in our lives, begins to dissappear.
I see you have Malcolm X in your picture there. Check out what he saw in Mecca, what he wrote after he had been there. It was a revelation to him, that there were white skinned, blue eyed, blond haired muslims there.
He saw that people of ALL races can and do have the same ideas, religions which cross all race barriers. He realised that racism in USA was not something god given but willingly imposed idea. It was not about natural state of whites, but about an ideology based on the idea of separate races. In reality there is no such thing. There is only one race: human race.
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I happen to think that, in present circumstance, the “Livin’ without Wh*tey,” idea is a dead end.
^Definition of White God-complex^
You guys totally aren’t getting this idea. To understand all you have to do is look at the way Asians came into this country. They created their OWN businesses(many of which are in blk neighborhoods), kept their culture in tact, and put an emphasis on education. They never experienced institutionalized racism bc they were never that dependent on white ppl for jobs. Compare that to West Indian immigrants in the UK or North African/Muslim immigrants in Europe. The latter groups are facing high unemployment & prison rates bc they didn’t take the dependence & integration model.<—these groups take all that slavery/Jim Crow and past sh*t out the window.
I'm not saying create a closed electric fence around black neighborhoods. I am talking about empowering and finding independence for ourselves when we encounter discrimination in institutions that hurt us socially & economically. Owning BLACK businesses in BLACK neighborhoods is NEVER a bad idea. I swear there are more Asians(proportional-wise) than blacks owning services in my area alone. That’s unacceptable. What is stopping us from doing the same thing they are doing in this day & age?
I have gone to all black schools my entire life and I can tell you right now money and racism is not the problem in US education. The middle school I went to was BRAND SPANKING NEW. We had textbooks, new gym, library, computers, chalk boards, overheads, projectors, track, summer school, sizable classes all in a safe suburban environment. We had everything we needed to learn. There was no racism. All of the teachers were black and they made sure integrated AA heritage w/in the curriculum. What was the problem then? Why did the children under-perform in school? Why were their fights EVERYDAY? Easy, they didn’t give a damn about their education bc their parents didn’t instill the value of it.The end.
Yes, you can talk about how racism has diluted our culture, but it doesn’t matter. What matters is what we are going to do about it. Whites are not included in that. They don’t give a damn and they will never give a damn to the point where it matters on a sociological level.
We don’t have to create black this, black that everywhere. All we have to do is encourage building wealth & jobs independent of whites.
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I am not preaching anti-white racism or isolationism. I am preaching black dependence.
If massa is giving you the whip, stop begging him to stop hitting you and take that sh*t from that motherf*cker’s hand.
If you feel the problem is white racism then take white racism out of the equation bc it ain’t goin nowhere.
__________
Why do you guys think Jewish folks were able to evade institutional racism concerning Jewish economics in Europe? Just take a minute to think about that.
Italians, Irish, and other European immigrants socially & economically advance bc jobs were available to them. They were dirt poor coming here AND were viewed as inferior, so how did they rise? I’ll explain it to you exactly how my old history teacher did:
When those Southern and European immigrants went on factory strikes the big business guys in the North would get trucks filled w/ Southern Blacks and hire them to work in the factories. After the Euro workers got the idea and came off strike every single Black was fired mercilessly for the European immigrants that were preferred.
That was not word-for-word, but it was the best I can do. Now on to the point. Imagine if the owners of those factories had been black. Do you still believe they would have fired all of those black ppl?
Both the Black and new immigrant Whites were hated. The only difference is that one was hated less and was allowed to side-step economic discrimination. Affirmative Action can only go so far. Blacks are still being discriminated in the work place and the only way to fix that is for blacks to create businesses in their own communities when the others wont hire them. This is not isolationism, its maneuvering around the prejudice. Prejudice that will NEVER going to leave this society no matter how loud you beg.
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@King
The only reason why you worry over whether white people think your intelligent or beautiful is bc you believe their acceptance is needed in order for blacks to progress w/in this society.
That’s a problem(def. of White God-complex) and I hope you realize why. Blacks have every power in the world to get themselves out of this rut and people like you, those who want to wait on massa to say we can leave the plantation, are holding us back.
Waiting for those institutions you feel are constricting blacks to get less racist is an utter waste of time.
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Excellent Cynic, excellent analysis.
Malcolm’s commentary after his hajj didn’t suggest integration as a solution and what really stood out to me was the burning question in the minds of the majority media; Did he still have any animosity towards whites?
Their main concern was his lack dependence or his indifference to their approval.
Black economic stability is important and shouldn’t have to include provisions for the comfort of people who can’t benefit.
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@WarrenAZ
Exactly. Malcolm’s ideology wasn’t too far off from mine concerning economics. In fact, dude was probably a lot more radical.
@Sam
Sigh… there was a really great compilation of clips on youtube w/ Malcolm outlining his thoughts on black economics. Unfortunately copyright issues got it taken done. This video will have to suffice.
I repeat. I am not preaching total black isolationism. I do not believe forming a country w/in a country is feasible. All I am saying is that if Sheila lives in an area that is 98% Black, but she goes to get her car filled up at a gas station owned by Indians, gets her nails done by the Vietnamese, buys her weave from Koreans, has that weave sewn onto her head by Dominicans, gets Chinese food across the street, passes about 20 Mexican construction workers during her travels, does her grocery shopping at Walmart(owned by the Waltons), and works for a company where her white counterparts who have the same education as her are getting promotions she knows she deserved, then Sheila’s got a problem.
Complaining about it ain’t gonna do sh*t bc the Indians, Vietnamese, Koreans, Dominicans, Chinese, Mexicans, & Whites don’t care. They are to busy working and living their own lives. Their is no incentive to stop what they are doing to appease Sheila. In fact, many of them don’t like Sheila and refuse to listen to anything she says. So what are her options?
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@ Cynic
I’m sure that you already know that the immigration restrictions have been much stricter for East Asians, and I’m sure that you also no that there a many Asians wh don’t share in this stereotype of success.
That being said, I don’t disagree with your goals if they do not include financial or social isolationism.
I’m just as sure that you know that ‘West indian’ and African Blacks are more highly integrated into the majority society than are African-Americans (by and large) in many western countries, and are seen, by many, as model minorities.
http://thesouthern.com/news/opinion/editorial/page/article_2b589221-b917-54e5-a6b6-b57e3c25bf63.html
Click to access Society_45.pdf
Yikes!!! Where did you go to middle school!? NOT Los Angeles, I’m sure!
Well Cynic, a lot would depend on where else your schoolmates had gone to school before they ever got to your middle school. But again, supposing that they had great facilities and great teachers, all they way up, then yes, it would have be problems at the family level.
Black society is still pretty broken for may reasons that we have all discussed before, but you’re not looking for reasons, I take it, you’re looking for solutions, yes? Then I agree that a lack of enthusiasm for education as a necessary means of success is one of the problems passed down by generations of miseducation and lack of real opportunities, even if you were educated.
Clearly, the solution to that is for educated Blacks to continue to work in even greater numbers within our communities to spread the word that education NOW works. If you go to school and study in a field that’s in demand, you will probably get a pretty good job whether you are Black or not. Most of the people who post on this board have done just that.
I also have no problem at all with starting up more Black businesses. In addition to my 8 to 5, I have started several of my own that make money for me every year (albeit, not a fortune). I’ve done consulting work for very successful Black startup businesses, both in the medical and engineering fields.
But everyone can’t and shouldn’t work for a Black business. It’s also just a legit to seek your fortunes in the Fortune 500. Becoming successful there blazes the trail for other Blacks to be seen for their potential, not their skin color. As in many other areas of discrimination, once the color line is successfully broken, at many high level positions, there is a dramatic change in the game.
Prejudice that will NEVER going to leave this society no matter how loud you beg.
No, I’d guess that it’s never going to be gone entirely from human race. Even when racial prejudice becomes less effective, other prejudices will take it’s place. And it will always be part of the Anti process to identify and address these prejudices—first by talking about them, and then by taking individual or group action against them.
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Sorry. Irocsox is another username of mine, not a sock puppet. I have no idea why it showed up.
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@King
I did not mention Africans or West Indians in the US. I said UK. Also I did not compare Asian Americans to African Americans. I compared them w/ West Indian and North African/Muslim immigrants in Europe. The same can be said for Canada. I took slavery and Jim Crow out of the equation for a reason.
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“That’s a problem(def. of White God-complex) and I hope you realize why. Blacks have every power in the world to get themselves out of this rut and people like you, those who want to wait on massa to say we can leave the plantation, are holding us back.”
Have I have said all along this path that I encourage and Black businesses? Have I also not said that I encourage higher education? My one great crime has been that I have said that this can be done concurrently while addressing social grievances, when deemed necessary.
All of these ‘plantation’ and ‘God’ metaphors don’t make any sense, given what I’ve actually said. You seem determined to frame the discussion, based upon a certain idea that you hold in your head, about the current divisions of thought in Black society.
Unfortunately, I haven’t really taken the opposing side, but you would still force me into your mold, to make the point.
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Geez, sorry about the typos.
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My one great crime has been that I have said that this can be done concurrently while addressing social grievances, when deemed necessary.
-I’ve already explained why I believe this is a waste of time and how it hurts Black people.
I’m just as sure that you know that ‘West indian’ and African Blacks are more highly integrated into the majority society… in many western countries, and are seen, by many, as model minorities.
-Again going off of what I was addressing concerning West Indians in the UK(not US). Check the statistics in the 1st min.
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Back to the original question “Are white women really beautiful or is it society that makes them seem so?”
Beauty is highly subjective and is influenced by many factors, some of which are unsavory and unhealthy. Examples of the negative would be the unbalanced media images being distributed all over the world, and the long-term effects of colonization/subjugation over the centuries.
Beauty is something that cannot be argued, although I think Abagond’s topics on beauty open us up for very useful discussions. There is no right or wrong when it comes to beauty. It’s just a matter of what one RECOGNIZES as beautiful. No amount of heated arguing makes a person change his/her mind about what is appealing. People have been known to change their opinions over time on their own. We don’t necessarily have the same tastes we had a decade ago.
There are many heated discussions on line about what constitutes beauty. Some people become highly offended when others don’t agree with their ideals. I don’t. Granted, we all want to be attractive/desireable to others, but I don’t give any person or group so much power that I get riled up (or overly gratified) by what they think. If some think white women are more beautiful, fine. If others think Eskimo, Black, Asian, Latina, or Aborigine women are more beautiful, that’s fine, too.
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@cynic: Yeah, I get what you say. I have no problem with the idea of black business or black economical success. I also agree on certain level that there is a lack of culture of success and trying among many american blacks, but I see that as a part of the problem. Not believing, loosin faith, creates the apathy and acceptance of inability to better ones life. Sort of “Who cares” attitude. And that is a big problem. But I think that came originally from the wider context and the history. That culture was created during the long years of open racism in USA.
Jewish economical success AND their comparative isolation in Europe lead straight into pogroms and holocaust because the nazis were able to sell their version to the general public. Why? Because the jews were easy pickings because they had very clear isolated culture, their own religion etc. Nazis were able to utilize the Them vs Us idea to the hilt.
While some of them were very successful pre-1930’s, most jews were not. The jewish immigrants of USA came mainly from the jewish slums and ghettoes of the eastern Europe. Why they “made it” in US? Because over there the defining element was not religion but skin color. And we have to remember that jews could not get into some hotels in USA as late as in 1940’s, AFTER the holocaust and the fall of Hitler. So it was not just smooth sailing for them either. There was just not the culture of pogroms in USA as there was the culture of racism.
I think black businesses can be succesfull and there should be more of them, owned by blacks, but in the long run it is not possible without breaking out to the wider markets. Staying and focusing only on blacks as customer base and workforce clips to wings of growth at some point. Record industry is a good example. Most rap records today are bought by whites. They are the consumers buying records by black owned record lables, made by black producers and artists, talking about black issues in USA. If the those black artists and companies had just focused on black market and customers, the would’ve been succesfull but not in this gigatic scale.
Also I see this question, as with the white women/black women beauty, in wider context. I see it as a political question as well. The poor vs the rich, the have nots vs the few who have the most etc.
As for Malcolm X, after becoming hadji he realised how fkd up the racial situation in US really was and that it was a much bigger problem, on both sides of the racial divide. It was not just whitey vs blacks, but the whole unfair social system which had been playing poor un educated whites againts the blacks all along, just like in your example of white workers vs black workers. I try to find some of his thoughts on this, if I can.
Peace!
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It gets annoying when the so-called beauty of white women are pushed down our throats.
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well i am so glad that there are some other commenters on here who don’t believe in whining about racism is the way to progress.
‘The discussion is over. It’s gone on long enough. We know about institutional racism, prejudice, stereotypes, & stigma. Now it is time for us to combat it along with re-adjusting the cultural problems that are failing us.’
thank you. amen. omfg at last someone sees sense
and cynic is right to bring up the example of west indians and now increasingly the african population in the uk that are showing up disproportionately on crime statistics. i live in the uk and i see this for myself everyday. i too have brought this up before. start looking at the facts people! the black diaspora is in trouble and too many of us are happy to blame whites for everything. a blog like this encourages it. there are many intelligent people on here but for some reason self-reflection seems to be a mammoth task for you. wake up before it is too late! we are not babies. african americans, black europeans, Caribbeans and africans do not need white acceptance. we need unemotional analysis our our faults and solutions on how to move up.
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and btw the post on ‘how can it be racist if asians do better’ is just excuse after excuse. the uk pretty much had an open immigration policy in the 70s and 80s especially for ex-colonial countries. the indians (who we call asians in the uk ) arrived in droves. they experienced awful racism around that time -culminating in the 80s with the skinheads and the propping up of white nationalist parties. yet, they have done extremally well here. they set up businesses, the educated their children, they kept out of trouble. if you’re saying that these indians were middle-class or had some type of advantage over blacks then you are kidding yourself. but then my mother always used them as an example of why there is no reason why i shouldn’t do well either. i guess sometimes it’s about the lessons you are handed down from your parents.
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@ Cynic
Sorry for the delay.
How does addressing West Indians “taking slavery and Jim Crow out of the equation?” West Indians have their own long and well-documented history of slavery in the tobacco and sugar cane plantations of their region.
And I can tell you from my own family history that Jim Crow was also practiced (without necessarily using that label) on most of the islands. You had a smaller but privileged White population, often run by an English, Spanish , or French governor. You had all White business and sizable land owners. The factories and plantations were all run by White foreigners, the mangers and supervisors where all White people. All of the government jobs were perennially White positions. Natives could not belong to any of the social clubs, play on the golf courses, and tennis courts, or swim in the swimming pools. They also couldn’t eat in certain ‘private’ restaurants.
Education for Black children was totally separate and drastically unequal and underfunded. In many places, all education beyond elementary school was private and had to be paid for. To this day, there are many citizens of the West indies who’s entire education consisted of years 1-6.
How exactly does this make your point?
What you are looking at in West Indians is relatively analogous to the experiences of African Americans in many respects. There was not a Ku Klux Klan, and there were fewer lynchings, but the institutional miseducation, exclusion, oppression, and targeted racial psyops was all there.
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bulanikgirl – well yes. or you can call it pride, determination, ambition – whatever
the point is that they have managed to overcome these barriers and make themselves successful. and i think it’s to do with those qualities mentioned above. they weren’t looking for acceptance or hand-outs. they just got their hands dirty and knew what they had to do.
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But, on the other hand, knowing the reasons why is just part of solving the problem, and perhaps it’s the easy part. It is necessary for Blacks to know why they are where they are, and what factors led them to it.
However, obviously we cannot say that every Black pathology is purely the result of White mistreatment. Yes, it is necessary to combat long-standing issues on the Black side of the equation as well. You can deal with those two aspects together or separately.
Abagond has dedicated his efforts, on this site, to dealing with the “How we got to this point” question. He has said that he doesn’t deal with the issues of Black pathology in this particular space. I can accept that. It doesn’t mean that my entire world is this site, and that I, or others, never do anything else but examine the issues of White prejudice that are discussed here.
Talking about the history of how we got where we are—not out of Black ineptitude or stupidity, but because of prejudice—is not whining, or griping, or begging, or White God worshipping. It’s examining a specific aspect of historical and present injustice for a specific reason.
When you wish to deal with the second aspect of “Where do we go from here?” then there are plenty of other places to deal with that. There are brick and mortar organizations where you can volunteer your time and treasure to make things happen in the real world. That is what I do, and I highly recommend it as the antidote to internet frustration.
The internet is like a giant buffet. You’ve got plenty of things to choose from to make up your meals. If you get tired of eating butternut squash, then simply don’t put it on YOUR plate for a while, until you want it again—Don’t complain about anyone else who is eating it.
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@ Bulanikgirl
Agreed.
That’s not all there is to it, of course! But it just gives you the perspective to move forward to other issues. And surprisingly, even in this day and age, there are a lot of people who don’t understand what has become more than obvious to many of us.
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“the uk pretty much had an open immigration policy in the 70s and 80s especially for ex-colonial countries. the indians (who we call asians in the uk ) arrived in droves. they experienced awful racism around that time -culminating in the 80s with the skinheads and the propping up of white nationalist parties. yet, they have done extremally well here.”
Sailorscout, every situation is different. For example, things might have been been quite different in the U.S. today if most of the Blacks had immigrated here in droves in the 1970s.
The difference is that by the 1970s, African-Americans had been through so many cycles of promise and disappointment that they had very little trust that they would ever succeed beyond a modest living, at best. As a result, African-Americans in the 1970 were not nearly as entrepreneurial and optimistic as the new wave of Indian immigrants in Britain.
Also, regardless of an open immigration policy, the very act of voluntary immigration itself is a great filter as to the type of people you are likely to naturalize. The results (as you can imagine) are quite different than if you forcibly import people, and then abuse them for a couple of 100 years. You are dealing with vastly different populations that live in different western countries for entirely different reasons. It is therefore, no surprise that they also have different group attitudes.
Also, consider that colonized India was a different environment than was a Caribbean plantation, or an American cotton farm. The Indians were subjugated, but in the shadows of their own past great civilizations. They could still walk the grounds of the Taj Mahal, and sit in the shadows of palaces of the Maharajas. It was infinitely easier for them to believe in their own cultural worth than it was for a slave in a foreign plantation who may have never seen Africa, and had only heard bad things about it.
MY POINT IS that different peoples have different stories, they come at different times in history, and direct comparisons quickly become hopelessly complicated.
African and Caribbean immigrants have done very well in the U.S. and perhaps, not so well in Britain. Why? What are the differences? It’s not likely to be an easy-bake answer, which is probably why it’s ill advised to use one group’s success to try and prove that another group SHOULD be equally successful.
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In American society a significant number of bw do not take care of themselves. Many American bw are overweight/obese and have thin, disheveled, & frumpy looking hair. In comparison, this may make American ww seem more beautiful than they reallareri bc ww generally take better care of their appearance. A lot of ppl take that and attribute it to traditional African features(uncontrollable) instead of weight and hair management (controllable). This allows them to make accusations of racism along with media blaming.
To fix this problem I think more American bw should check the last paragraph of sailorscout1989’s 1st comment on this thread.
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which is probably why it’s ill advised to use one group’s success to try and prove that another group SHOULD be equally successful.
Sigh… when did I ever ask WHY African Americans aren’t successful? I am telling you why. It’s bc they don’t own sh*t, don’t have any power, and don’t attempt to gain any power as a group. If you see another group succeeding why wouldn’t you attempt to copy & paste their success? Why can’t what worked for Asians work for AA’s? What is so infeasible about taking the bootstrap approach? What is so controversial about suggesting the bootstrap approach when we KNOW whitefolks aren’t gonna give us anything? When we know complaining to progress is pointless on a wider sociological scale?
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@ Cynic
I was actually referring to something that sailorscout said.
And, as you know, I’ve said nothing against emulating best practices from other groups.
So what do you have specifically in mind?
What are the big ideas?
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@King
Well I mean I was the one that initially brought up the diff immigrant groups. I really don’t see how Sailorscout insinuated that either, but whatever.
My ideas are all upthread.
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So then, the “Start your own business” idea, en masse.
OK, what exactly should be done to make that happen?
(It’s OK, I’m not trying to trap you)
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@bulanikgirl
‘Have you assessed the outcomes of UK Asians from the Caribbean islands?
There is no controlled survey that I know of, but from my own observations & experience, they’ve done no better or worse than their African-descended countrymen from those same islands – depending on this:
how much or how little they have internalized the (negative) identity of ‘blackness’ as defined by racist ideas about colour, etc.’
there aren’t many non-mixed asian Caribbeans in this country to really make an observation on that. in fact i don’t know any asian-Caribbeans that are not ‘coolie’ or mixed with black. and they usually see themselves as just black. if that is what you are asking – i may have misunderstood you
‘ If you see another group succeeding why wouldn’t you attempt to copy & paste their success?’
because i’m afraid it seems as though black would see this a defeat. as some sort of bowing down. a blow to the ego. when in fact it is anything but. nations have copied successful things from other nations since the beginning of time. you don’t lose any dignity by doing this. we’re all human and we all need to take inspiration from one another
@king
the first step is to start spreading the culture and ethic of hard work. decreasing the drop out rates of black kids in school. enforcing the power of a good education. black parents being strict. don’t allow your young kids to be outside all hours of the night. make sure our boys know that having multiple girls and not using contraception every singly time is just unacceptable. setting a good example ourselves so they know the reward of hard work by looking at what we do. to cite what the now infamous (amongst aa) bill cosby once said ‘be the person you want your children to become’. then the businesses, entrepreneurship will follow suit. we need to start from the roots.
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@King
“How does addressing West Indians “taking slavery and Jim Crow out of the equation?” West Indians have their own long and well-documented history of slavery in the tobacco and sugar cane plantations of their region.”
Omfg how did I miss this. I said West Indians IN THE UNITED KINGDOM! Not West Indians in Barbados, St. Vincent, Bahamas, or any other island. My parents are both from Jamaica. I, most of my cousins, and many of my friends/acquaintances are first generation Americans. My mother did not graduate high school, my father didn’t go to college, in fact I only know one aunt who graduated college(after moving to the US). The majority of my 1st gen American cousins are doing just fine. Many of us are in college, about to be in college, or have already graduated. History is nice, but I can tell you that, that “long and well-documented history” has not impeded our growth or success one bit. It’s NOT an excuse for me or anyone else of my background.
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Ahh!! Sorry Cynic! Wrong Indians!! I blame Christopher Columbus and his mistakes!
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sailorscout:
“the first step is to start spreading the culture and ethic of hard work. decreasing the drop out rates of black kids in school. enforcing the power of a good education.”
I agree with your goals, but you’re kind of giving a ‘World Peace’ kind of answer.
“In order to have world peace, countries should stop being aggressive toward each other. They should concentrate on being fair, and stop seeking their own advantage over that of others.”
All of what I said is true, but all that I was just doing there was taking the criticisms about war, and saying, “stop doing that!”
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what are you talking about? how is being strict and not having a lax culture being compared to advocating world peace?
what i’m talking about can start with an individual. it can start with parents in their own households.
it’s a shame you can’t even avoid making those simple steps sound crazy and unrealistic.
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Read my post again.
What I said was that simply saying, “be good” is not really sharing an idea that is very helpful, any more than saying, “don’t fight” is very helpful to solving world peace.
What are the specifics? It easy to just say, “value education more.”
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“History is nice, but I can tell you that, that “long and well-documented history” has not impeded our growth or success one bit. It’s NOT an excuse for me or anyone else of my background.”
The effects of history should not be used as an excuse not to try and do our best to succeed.
just as
The success of some people should not be used to excuse the effects of history on others.
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i said a lot more than ‘be good’ or anything general of that nature.
my point IS THAT IT STARTS AT HOME.
i don’t think i can be any clearer than that.
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So then there is really no action point or further discussion about it. It just starts at home.
Good advice.
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ok well let me break this down, but it is going to sound like a good parents manual – you have been warned:
‘the first step is to start spreading the culture and ethic of hard work’ – drill into your kids everyday how important it is to make your way in this world through hard work. it’s sad, but we should tell our kids that because they are black then they will have to work twice as hard as the next white person. there is nothing wrong in knowing what you are dealing with from the off-set. accepting no less from those around you. women should stop putting up men who don’t want to get out there and earn a decent living. women should stop chasing after/allowing themselves to be chased by guys who are simply no good.
‘decreasing the drop out rates of black kids in school’ don’t let your kid drop out from school. if they are truly having a hard time then try to move them. do something – don’t let them wander onto the streets.
‘enforcing the power of a good education’ no tv on the weekdays. no play-station. homework. buy kids maths. science etc books from the bookstore and make them do that! get them to read to you. whatever..don;t let kids brains rot
and etc…
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@King
The success of some people should not be used to excuse the effects of history on others.
“Some” people my ass. I am speaking from experience. The history you outline in this comment:
… is not an excuse for anybody that has a similar background as me. Period. If you are going to make the ludicrous assertion/suggestion that the racial history in the Caribbean cam impede the success of West Indian immigrants to a 1st world country, then I am going to need you to come full circle w/ that thought and explain exactly how that is possible.
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Well thank you. Now you’re actually explaining what you’re talking about.
But you’re still just only giving advice. You are, in essence saying, “This is the way that people should raise their children.” Like you say, it is a good parenting manual. But how do you propose that good parenting actually gets implemented? Because good advice (by itself) is seldom enough to affect large scale change.
Like I was saying before, you can give the world good advice about not pointing missiles at their neighbors, but it doesn’t begin to solve any problems unless it goes beyond that.
Do you have an idea beyond the advice?
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king
‘But you’re still just only giving advice. You are, in essence saying, “This is the way that people should raise their children.” Like you say, it is a good parenting manual. But how do you propose that good parenting actually gets implemented? Because good advice (by itself) is seldom enough to affect large scale change.’
well, king, i don’t have any grand ideas above giving good advice. to our neighbours, friends, kids etc. this can spread like wildfire if people decide that ‘yeah that could be a good way to live. i’m gonna try another way because what i’m doing/my parents have been doing obviously isn’t working’. a blog like this, with so many readers could be a great platform for that.
bulanikgirl
‘“Coolie”- is the word for indentured labourers who came from India (or China) used to replace the enslaved Africans following their manumission. Certainly free and of legal status, coolies were slaves all but in name.
Sometimes “coolie” can be description for an Indian said in friendly banter, but, it has its sting of racial degradation.’
ahh right. i was under the impression that ‘coolie’ was the Caribbean name for mixed people of black and indian descent. didn’t even know it could be offensive. i still have never met an unmixed asian-Caribbean.
‘For some, the link is too broken, the pressure to conform too great, ‘standing apart’ takes too much thought and energy, because being accepted as ‘not different’ is just easier, and has preferable privileges.’
interesting. and i cosign with your last 3 paragraphs. food for thought
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i understand that argument but i just don’t buy it. humans are capable of so much it’s unreal. if blacks want to they can get over the past and make a better future.
it’s early morning over here now so i’m off to bed.
toodles
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“well, king, i don’t have any grand ideas above giving good advice. to our neighbours, friends, kids etc.”
Well it might be worth taking the next step, and developing your ideas beyond the advice stage.
You see, we can complain about White oppression, or we can complain to Blacks that they aren’t doing enough to raise their children properly, but either way, without a plan, they BOTH end up being no more than either “whining” or “nagging.”
Now, on the White oppression end of it, there has been a long history of the whining and complaining developing into actual protests, campaigns to call your congressman, and court cases. These critical steps beyond the discussion stage have been what has gotten laws, and corporate policies changed for the better, these past decades.
If you’re serious about campaigning to make real changes on the Responsibility/Renewal end of the equation, then you will probably need to go further than just telling people how you think they can do better. You’ll need to think up ACTIONS that activists can take to improve the situation.
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@King
Realize I’m not saying racism hasn’t hurt black people(it has), all I’m saying is that it didn’t have to post-Civil rights. Economically speaking, I believe it is possible for groups to protect themselves from racism. It’s just that black folks tend to wallow in misery while watching our culture implode, rather than working through the prejudice we face.
Here is a bit of unofficial history about blacks in Britain.
@King
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I get you, Cynic.
Although the post-Civil rights era still had plenty of pretty bad racism, at least into the early 1990s. It wasn’t until about the mid ’90s for me, that I began to feel that race was not being seen as the huge a factor as it had been previously. (at least on the West Coast)
It’s just that black folks tend to wallow in misery while watching our culture implode, rather than working through the prejudice we face.
I think it’s difficult to readjust because for so long White prejudice was so big a problem that it was hard to even think about anything else. Today, it’s still a problem (HBD etc) but it is less so than in the past and therefore we should shift some of our external attention to the internal problems.
But, as I’ve been saying, I think that it’s possible to to both.
Thanks for the video, I’ll have to watch it at lunch.
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@King
You see, we can complain about White oppression, or we can complain to Blacks that they aren’t doing enough to raise their children properly, but either way, without a plan, they BOTH end up being no more than either “whining” or “nagging.”
Either way, one of these problems is clearly changeable and will likely get better one day, the other.. well… not so much
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Oh, sorry.
it’s short for Human Biodiversity
it’s a brand of “scientific” racism.
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HBD = human biodiversity, a euphemism for scientific racism. More here:
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Black is just as beautiful as white.So what is the big deal?
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@ King–
If you’re serious about campaigning to make real changes on the Responsibility/Renewal end of the equation, then you will probably need to go further than just telling people how you think they can do better. You’ll need to think up ACTIONS that activists can take to improve the situation.
You are so right about actions. If you notice, all of those other groups of people that Blacks are compared to still start out by getting married before they start having children. That’s a major first action. That’s a basic brick in the “responsibility/renewal” house. Without that, the rest of this talk is a joke.
Why do so few American black men want to marry anybody?
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Are white women beautiful or is it society that makes them so?
I strongly believe there is beauty in all races . I am also very aware that this is not felt by all and in my opinion, and as others have alluded to I firmly believe that this dates back to slavery. It was well known that black women were used and abused by their ‘owners’. The wive(s ) who were aware to a more or lesser degree about their husbands rape of their female slaves needed ‘reassurance’. To appease the missus you can imagine ‘the massa’ degrading and vilifying every aspect of the said black females including the physical appearance to wifey whilst elevating her very being as a white woman to ensure she doesn’t remain disgruntled. I guess being told that over hundreds of years would resonate and become fact – after all what do dumb blacks know and whites rule the world, right???? hence the ‘myth’ then becomes a reality and an ideal that many have aspired to for centuries.
My friends and I were chatting (as us girls do ) about experiences etc from yesteryear. In particular, recollecting our formative years, where me and my black female friends encountered times when we were likened to what were probably seen as ‘less or unattractive’ black women either around us or in the media by WM in an attempt to reiterate and reinforce their revulsion of BW. I can also say that these morons do things like this once again to belittle the individual that they are referring to due to their ‘fear’ of black people in general and their ignorance therein. They feel safe when they can write people of, they become insignificant, something they can disregard and treat as an object of fun to relieve themselves of that fear. I vividly recall being in a bar where one such WM was telling my friend (who happened to be a white female) who he thought I resembled to which she furiously protested and told him who she thought he looked like (he wasn’t pleased at 25 to be likened to Phil Collins –the musician, it seems ). Not being aware of this (I was in the bathroom) on my way back through I had a very different experience. A random guy came up to me, he said hi, I responded. He said ‘I’m not trying to pick you up or anything, I am here with my girlfriend. I just wanted to tell you I think you are beautiful’ I thanked him and we went our separate ways. When my friend told me what had been happening in my absence (by this time the guy who was running me down was sneering at her with his friends) I had to take time to put it all in to perspective but, sometimes, just sometimes, I lose sight of what is really happening and I too start believing what society has been telling black girls like me for years about my complexion and my ‘ethnic’ features.
Years later I encountered the dickhead again…at his wedding. His wife works with my husband and we were invited via her (I never knew his name so it didn’t click until I saw him). The funny thing is, his brother was with and eventually married a black woman. A lovely girl who I personally think is gorgeous but to ‘society’ and the ideals that are still pervasive, she probably would not be deemed so.
It is refreshing to me that at last WM are being more honest about being attracted to BW and I am glad to see much more diverse examples of Black Beauty in the media than before – certainly significantly more than when I was growing up.
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Personally, white woman are way more attractive than black woman 🙂
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White women are helped by having a skin type that is greatly enhanced by make-up, without which most of them would look like witches.
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@ Shaka
That’s not exactly true. Modern makeup was first produced with White Western women in mind as it’s primary customers. In other words, it was created to enhance that particular range of skin coloring. In more recent decades, as the Western population has become more diverse, makeup production has been expanded to better serve other ethnic markets.
Today, makeup can be found to enhance many different skin tones. But there is little difference between White women without makeup and many other shades of women. Your “witch” comment is probably more about your own dislike of the White beauty ideal than on anything concrete. We would probably all be better served if we refrain from making disparaging remarks about the women of other ethnicities.
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GLORY BE TO WHITE WOMEN AMEN WHITE WOMEN TRUELY ARE SUPERIOR ME BIENG PUERTO RICAN I ONLY WORSHIP WHITE WOMEN POWERFUL ALMIGHTY ELEGANCE THAT IS THE WHITE GODDESSES OF OUR WORLD WHITE WOMEN ARE SUPERIOR IN EVERYTHING THEY HAVE NO COMPETITION THEY ALWAYS WIN WHILE MINORITY UGLY HOES SIT THERE AND WATCH WHITE WOMEN RUN THEIR SOCIETIES I SEEN THE LIGHT I TRUELY BELIEVE WHITE WOMEN WERE CHOOSEN BY OUR WHITE GOD THANK YOU WHITE JESUS FOR WHITE WOMEN TEHY TRUELY ARE A BLESSING WE SERVE A WHITE GOD PPL BOW TO WHITE WOMEN TREAT THEM WITH CARE AND DEVOTE YOUR LIFE TO WHITE WOMEN I KNOW I DO WHITE WOMEN COMPLETE ME AND COMPLETE ALL MINORITY MEN LIKE ME PRIASE THE ALMIGHTY WHITE WOMEN AMEN
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Demerera says,
It is refreshing to me that at last WM are being more honest about being attracted to BW and I am glad to see much more diverse examples of Black Beauty in the media than before – certainly significantly more than when I was growing up.
laromana says,
EXCELLENT comments, Demerera. It’s clear from certain ANTI-BW HATER comments/commenters that they have bought into ANTI-BW brainwashing from American culture/media.
The FACT is that there are beautiful and unattrative women in EVERY race.
NO ONE race of women is the most beautiful SOLELY on the basis of race.
NO ONE race of women has a monopoly on beauty or unattractiveness.
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jorbia says,
@WarrenAZ–
It’s not a Strawman because it takes away your excuse.
You believe what you want, and I’ll believe what I know. I think a Black woman should wear her hair the way she can afford to wear it because there can be a price to pay. So that’s her individual decision.
One of the things I always notice is how BAM constantly want BAW to go out and fight social battles. Some BAM ought to be so ashamed.
Let’s say that a group of high level BAW sales reps at a major communications company started wearing their hair natural and some of their company’s bigwig clients got the word to the company’s upper echelons that they didn’t want those women handling their accounts any more. What would BAM actually do to support and defend those women? Would 10,000 BAM cancel their cell phone service account with them? No, they wouldn’t and they didn’t. The women talked about filing a lawsuit, but that’s a long drawn out process and so stressful. These Black women have children and responsibilities and they knew they were alone.
Black men can get on the internet and talk tough, but most of them don’t do much of anything strong or positive to help BAW on a day to day basis not to feel alone. Do BAM really have the women’s back? Most BAW would say no.
To bring this back to the thread topic, the ONLY reason why White women are viewed as the “most beautiful” is because White men have fought just about everybody down through history to make sure that White women can wear that crown comfortably. They have White women’s back. White men have beaten White women’s beauty into the brains of just about every man in the world. I believe that most Black men are too scared to reject White women’s beauty, so to save themselves, they “prefer” it, no matter how the White woman actually looks.
What do the Black men who call themselves “conscious” or “warriors” ever do to help Black women aside from talk.
If Black Women don’t want to fight against conventional physical standards in this country then they should be silent about the issue. Period.
Go out and get some BAM to stand up and fight for Black women instead of pushing women out there to break down the barriers. When BAW lose their jobs or don’t get promoted or are labeled as “troublemakers” because they fought against the social conventions, where are Black men? Do Black men step up to pay their rent or mortgage note? Buy food and clothes for their children? Help them handle the stress?
So, you can try to talk Black women into putting themselves on the line like that. I won’t. Better still, try to persuade Oprah or Michelle Obama to go natural.
One more thing. You want Black Women to be taken on an individual basis. Valid point, but are you willing to do that for members of other racial groups and black men?
Always. I always give individual credit where individual credit is due.
black women choose to relax their toddlers hair too so who has their backs?
What percentage of Black mothers relax their toddlers hair? Say it. I would bet it’s only a small percentage. You’re just stretching hard here to portray Black women in a negative way. I could just as well point at the number of White mothers who push their tiny daughters out there on the beauty queen circuit to compete to be Little Miss Strawberry Festival or something like that. There are some silly mothers in all groups.
laromana says,
jorbia,
Thanks for your EXCELLENT repsonses to ANTI-BW BM who actively/passively CONDONE/PROMOTE ANTI-BW HATE in American culture/media.
Until ALL BM choose to CONFRONT/CONDEMN/WORK to DESTROY ANTI-BW HATE and defend the humanity, dignity, and femininity of BW (the women who GAVE THEM LIFE), BW will continue to DEMEANED/DEGRADED/ DISRESPECTED by EVERYONE.
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Have some self respect and stick with your own kind.
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@ king i do too when ppl come up with their own P.O.V.!
What are white penis size percentages? And how did you find out?
GOOD ONE! LOL.
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Are we sure that the desire to be thin in East Asia came from the West? We have evidence that the desire to be fair-skinned might not be attributable to recent western origin, and eyelid surgery might have been affected by Western ideals of beauty, but did we find supporting evidence that “thin is beautiful” came from the West too? It is possible, but I have not researched the history of this belief in other parts of the world.
I do find the desire to be thin even more extreme in East Asia than it is in the West.
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@ Jefe:
I have friends from different East Asian ethnicities and being thin is not thin enough for them. They lent their fashion magazines to me from their respective countries and there is a slew of weight-loss products and “miracle” diet aids advertised. A former Chinese friend of mine constantly remarked how fat she was. And she was barely 90 lbs. She ate minimally and drank a lot of those slimming herbal teas. I dropped her as a friend when she would make comments about me looking “big”. Big meaning 105 at the time!
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Higher testosterone is a blessing. Studies affirm that Africans have denser bones(one of the benefits of higher test); therefore less likely to develop osteoporosis. Men in average produce over TEN times more test than women; so BW having certain percentage higher than WW will NOT MASCULINIZE BW. In fact they will stay younger, leaner and with denser bones. The only way a woman will develop male characteristics is by changing estrogen to test ratio(steroids).
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Sorry, being thin, having wide eyes and pale skin was the beauty standard in East Asia before we ever knew white people existed.
In fact, lighter skin in females is due to estrogen output, and is considered attractive in many non-white societies regardless of “colonial imagery”.
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@mcheng. error wrong. look at ancient african societies where they preferred darker skin, not lighter skin. tan-mocha color is attractive light, but pale-pinkish colors tend to look ugly and rough to me
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no other race is as beautiful as caucasians
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Trollicious!
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My above comment was @raja
Anyway, why are people acting like Asian women and White women are on the SAME spectrum of perceived attractiveness by people as a whole? Society STILL paints the White woman as the “model”, “most popular/hottest girl in school”, “femme fatale”, and “the prize the geeky guy gets” moreso than the Asian woman. Just one look at general American media tells all.
And what roles do Asian women usually play, and HOW are they usually perceived by people in real life? Either the stereotypical overachieving nerd, the karate-chopping tiger woman, the secondary best friend, or just plainly hypersexualized.
Speaking as an Asian woman myself, it’s pretty hard to evade these indirect messages. It’s not like you can completely turn yourself off from the world, you know?
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^ All of this has been subliminally ingrained in both men and women from the day that they were born. So no wonder you have males from any race subconsciously idealizing the White female, regardless of what they say to themselves or to other people to try to prove otherwise, and no wonder WOC have deep-seated insecurities, no matter how small or how well they try to mask it, about their worth.
Individuals tell us “Be proud of who you are”, but society as a whole incessantly dictates otherwise. Is it realistic, and is it expected, in a predominantly Westernized world? Absolutely. Does that make it fair, and does it make it right? Absolutely not.
How the HECK does one go about ending this prevalent and vicious cycle, I often wonder. It’ll take a great institutionalized effort before we start to see any significant changes.
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I don’t know what is the endless discussion of this topic beacuase right know average american women regardless of race don’t take care of themselves in their health and appearience, don’t want to have a femenine in atittute. etc etc it’s pointless.
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its not really just in America. White ideals of beauty are everywhere Latin America, Asia and Africa etc. So for those who are trying to blame the american media think twice about it.
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Are white women beautiful or is it society that makes them seem so? | Abagond
The Slave of the Husband
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Just FYI: The accepted official standards of an hour glass figure are equal bust and hip measurements. The waist measurement is AT LEAST nine inches smaller (you can look info this up). This is why statistically only a small percentage of the female population fits this standard.
I CONSTANTLY see complaining that the fashion measurements only cater to “hour glass figures,” yet when I see the models, they are more of a twig shape, and the clothing is designed to drape on that. Maybe they do have some hips or bust, but I doubt what would fit standards when you pull out a measuring tape. I think people tend to throw around the term rather flippantly, and I agree, true hour glass figures are NOT represented in our society and media. They’re considered fat these days.
What makes no evolutionary sense to me is that we consider women with small hips and thin thighs beautiful. Estrogen promotes fat storage in hips and thighs. Women with small hips, bone structure included, may have more difficulty in natural childbirth, which in olden times could mean the difference between life and death. I once read somewhere that the most healthful hip measurement for a woman to have was around 40 inches, since at that measurement, childbirth death is less likely, and hip fat with lean stomachs can be healthy for women (they have less risk for diseases like diabetes).
All I can think of for society’s idolization of the twig figure, is that it sets off our instincts of how it resembles a VERY young, not yet developed girl just going through puberty-one who has many years of fertility ahead of her, and time to develop secondary sexual characteristics. Yet this is still ironic, because young pregnancies can be VERY susceptible to complications and death, even more so that their older counterparts.
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West Africa woman they are the most ugly woman in the world thy are very very ugly woman spishily etipaian woman
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The claims regarding African women being uglier due to higher testosterone are obviously false. Testosterone production may be higher, but their overall hormone profile is in balance with estrogen production; otherwise they would store most adipose tissue within the same region(s) as men.
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I am thin and I am not anorexic. People have different morphology. They should accept the body they have. I am thin and tall never bothered to be a model. Everyone who wants to become a model should think twice. What does it mean “vanity”. There are many more important things in this world than wanted to become a model. BMI is what defines the right weight for the right height. If people would concentrate more on the inside more than on the outside the Earth will be a better place
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Time Pass BEAUTY TIPS,HEALTH SECRATE,Celebrity Gossip,JOKES, Videos AND MUCH MORE http://healthyjoke.blogspot.com/
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[…] https://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/10/19/are-white-women-beautiful-or-is-it-society-that-makes-them-s… (accessed on May 12, 2014 […]
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Plain and simple the Western standard of beauty makes white women beautiful.
Whether a woman is wearing a lip plate (in East Africa or South America), neck rings (in South Africa or Myanmar) or has broken feet (old China) all women are beautiful. Beauty is skin deep!
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I have the feeling that the straightening of the hair of black women was as much of a requirement then as is it in some cases STILL a “passive aggressive” requirement. Personally, I do not believe that we just wanted to look like black folks who “seemed to have it better” than most others. If that were the case, why is it that the United States military is requiring black women to wear specifically designated “hairstyles”, each of them requiring either chemicals or the inclusion of materials that dot originate from the wearer (i.e. it isn’t hair growing from the troops head.. it is either woven or braided in ). NOT ONE OF THE STYLES APPROVED BY A MAJORITY WHITE MALE MILITARY IS A NATURAL HAIRSTYLE.
That said, WHO is it that requires that we maim ourselves in order to take on the appearance of a people/culture/race that has OWNED us for four centuries?
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@ Valerie Kelley
I’ve noticed this with dancers like ballerinas, vegas showgirls etc. Since the majority of the women are white and the companies want them to have a uniform look that look becomes white. A perfect example of the white default in that the intent may have not been harmful but the idea that no one other than whites exist/matter so to speak leaves so many others (but namely black) women out.
I’ve seen BW with white women’s hairstyles that I assume took them forever to do while doing something as physically taxing as dancing knowing its going to be sweated out by the end of the night forcing them to go through the grueling task all over again & I just feel bad for them. No one should have to go to that far of a length to do something they love. I say to hell with looking for so-called acceptance, make, support & promote more black dance companies instead. More black owned businesses period.
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Check out this blog: http://confessionsofabengali.wordpress.com/2014/10/22/white-is-better-white-is-beautiful/
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Actually had you read her blog you would know she made a quite compelling point.
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I’m with you, Sharina. I think ConfessionsOfABengali nails it completely regarding the people she’s referring to.
But I have to say, even if -you know who- had read her blog post, the totality of what’s there would probably still elude him. One doesn’t overcome the effects of digesting a lifetime of the Matrix’s “blue pills” that easily.
Cluelessness is a mother….!
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I might be pretentious, but hey, at least I’m not a noted Dumb-Azz!
🙂
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Its being tied up with rope that makes white women beautiful.
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@ George
In a few paragraphs you should have got the point she was making. All of which was based on her experiences. You simply did not read it at all and then went back to try to skim through.
Like I said to you before, you agree and disagree on things without a clear understanding of it.
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@George
That is good, but you might try that first next time.
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I think many people know that the dominant society places white women, particularly blonde-haired white women, over women of color. Why? White women are the standard of beauty or, at least, that’s what everyone is taught in society or shown on television. But the standard of beauty is changing in our American society.
Like every guy I was bombarded with white blonde beauty. Do names like Farrah Fawcett, Suzanne Somers and Morgan Fairchild ring a bell? Rightfully so, these were some beautiful blonde white women (in my day). But I know beauty is not confined to a few white blonde chicks.
In terms of blonde and brunette-haired white women, ask men between the ages of 35 and 65 who’s better-looking – Ginger or Mary Anne (of Gilligan’s Islands)? About 85 percent of them would say Mary Anne is better-looking. Ask men (age 35-65) who looks better Farrah Fawcett or Jaclyn Smith? About 70 percent would say Jaclyn Smith looks better. Or ask any man (age 35-65) who’s better-looking – Chrissy or Janet (of Three’s Company)? About 90 percent of them would say Janet is better-looking. I would be in that higher percentile group as well. In terms of white female preference, most white and non-white men prefer the brunette-haired white woman.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but for some people, particularly PoC, beauty is a mental conditioning as well.
Internal and external beauty is found in women of all ethnic groups. (The Creator played a little favoritism when creating the female and I ain’t mad, I’m glad.)
To me, my Fijian mother (who’s black and bu-i-niga/”frizzy-haired”), my wife (who’s black and woolly-haired) and two young daughters (who are black and woolly-haired) are the most BEAUTIFUL females on the planet. Ashe!!
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Apparently somebody found African women attractive, otherwise there would be no light skinned African Americans.
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I prefer European women. I think others can be sexy, and I don’t mind having sex with them, but at the end of the day, I feel more romantically attached to people of European descent.
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Most hot blooded men will take a leg-over wherever it’s available or they can get it. What’s wrong with you?
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Maybe they find themselves beautiful but I never thought that way about white woman.All I know is that their skin is red,when their skinny they’ve no shape and when fat all you see is the belly,their lips are so tiny,their hair thin and are so proud of themselves.I can say kate winslate is beautiful so is beyonce so is katrina chopra so is haifa.Women are all beautifull stop the rascism.
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All I know is that their skin is red,when their skinny they’ve no shape and when fat all you see is the belly,their lips are so tiny,their hair thin and are so proud of themselves.
you have just described the patrons of a Bingo Hall!
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Again, I am Adeen. I just changed my name and made a blog for myself.
I believe that it is society that makes them out to be more beautiful than they are. I am not denying that there aren’t beautiful White women out there. There are some beautiful White women that I have seen in the public eye and in reality. There are also beautiful Black, Latina, East Asian, Pacific Islander, Native American, East Indian, Arab women out there as well. I really think the media makes White women out to be the most beautiful and only beautiful women on there. And it isn’t fair to beautiful women of other races out there.
I am aware that many if not most men out there have individual tastes and preferences on what they like on a woman. I know there are some men who feel that White women are the most beautiful and aren’t attracted to Black women. And there are some men who find Black women the most beautiful and so on. Based on my experiences and observations, most men prefer to mate with women within their own racial and cultural group. There will be some men out there who date, marry and mate interracially but they make up the minority of men who choose to date, marry and mate with a woman. Regardless of the tastes and preferences of many men, many of their preferences in women tend to lean towards a Eurocentric standard but there are some exceptions to the rule.
However, we all have to remember how White womanhood being upheld as the pinnacle of beauty and femininity was used to promote White supremacy. White women’s beauty was used as a way to have women of other races try as hard as they can to live up to a Eurocentric standard of beauty that didn’t include them especially women of African descent. And it was used to have men believe that White women were the most beautiful women in the world. Thus colorism, skin bleaching and internalized racism among those of African, East Indian, Hispanic people etc became common place in these communities. And in these communities, a woman that is closer to White in skin tone and features is considered more beautiful than women with more ethnic features and darker skin. And all of this colorism and internalized racism goes back to the White supremacist ideals that White women are the most beautiful out of all women and deserve to be uplifted, cherished and protected much to the expense of women from other races and cultures.
And I am aware that the Eurocentric beauty standards are so narrow that even many White women don’t fit them either. However when I look in the media today, the majority of these actresses are medicore looking but can be praised for their ”beauty” due to having White skin and Eurocentric features. I have seen average to below average White women praised for their ”looks” based on their White skin and features.
How does this affect Black women and how their looks are perceived in the media?
Black women have to be ten times as good looking as the White woman to be considered good looking because Black women aren’t seen as universally beautiful. Our dark skin and features goes against what is considered ”beautiful” in the eyes of the media and people around the world. That is why the majority of Black actresses that you see on TV and in the media today are beautiful and always look so beautiful. Yet I see many average looking White starlets in mainstream media get praise for their looks when they aren’t even above average! This is how deeply entrenched White beauty standards is in our society.
Overall, I believe that there is beautiful and ugly people in every race and culture out there. No race holds an monopoly on beauty or ugliness. However for too long, the world has been taught that Black skin, naturally coiled hair that grows up to the sky and our nose and lips was a sign of inferiority and ugliness while White skin, long, straight hair, pointy noses and thin lips was seen as a sign of beauty, privilege and superiority. I am not here to put down any race of women. However I am here to point out how Eurocentric beauty standards play a big role in how any White woman regardless of how she looks like can be praised for her ”looks” while beautiful women of other races and cultures are overlooked.
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Black women tend to naturally have more curves (woman shaped bodies) then any other race. Just because they will fight back and won’t take being slapped around doesn’t make them manly. High levels of testosterone include hairiness. Most if not all black women I know aren’t hairy.
PS dark skin makes you look more muscular (that’s why body builders were bronzer) maybe that’s why people say they are less feminine.
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“Black women tend to naturally have more curves”
Not sure that is true. I used to think that too but it turn’s out that all women have curves, it’s just a matter of how they are distributed. I think that what you find is that there is a great variety of body types in women of all the “apparent races.” Even sisters in the same family will often have differing body types.
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I agree King. I have big boobs and small buttocks! I have a hard time purchasing bras and have to have them fitted! Can anyone spare some money to help me purchase some new ones? How about it King?
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I have never sen so much hate leveled at one black woman like it has been at Serena Williams. I think it strange that the curves and body parts of a black woman on a white woman is seen as exotic. I don’t get celebrating Kim Kardashian as some exotic siren and giving Serena Williams ish because of her strong curves and athletic body.
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seen^^
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I find it strange that white women are always trying to hijack black women’s style especially they are trying to get in on the natural hair movement.
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@ Herneith
ANYTHING for a good cause. 🙂 Naturally.
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@ Mary
I think the hate is leveled at Serena because she is a Black woman who took a White-dominated sport and has OWNED it. The fact that she comes from Compton makes it even worse for the naysayers. What it hints at is what just might be possible for these “ghetto kids” who they have so quickly written off as incorrigible parasites.
So, what they take aim at is ONE stereotype of Black women’s bodies and try to focus on that. But the truth is VERY few Black women look like Serena Williams. Black women come in all shapes and sizes (Just like other women). Some are tall and lean, others are short and curvy, still others are muscular and flat. Some have wide hips, some have narrow hips, some have “big butts” and many more have butts that would not appear with Sir Mix-a-Lot.
BOTH Black and Whites need to come to the realization that Black people (and therefore Black women) do not all look alike.
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@King: Good points. There are attractive women in all ethnic groups.
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@ Mary
The truth is that there are a lot of Black women who are built like these
(http://40.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9a8zyMbxs1rw2a8zo1_500.jpg)
(http://gidilifestyle.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/pchoco-reader-ashamed-skinny-1.jpg.png)
And I think we ALL have to get over this brainwashing that EVERY Black woman looks like this, and if they don’t then there’s something wrong with them.
(http://img7.lwhs.me/images/201405/goods_img/117618_P_1401366680161.jpg)
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” I have big boobs and small buttocks! I have a hard time purchasing bras and have to have them fitted! Can anyone spare some money to help me purchase some new ones?”
-As a long time reader of this site, I’m of fan of your commentary! As such, I’m willing to part with some spare change (lol) toward helping you gain some NEW undergarments!
Next time you’re stateside, give a holla! Maybe we’ll meet up for a little chat .., and shopping. 😉
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I agree with peanut from earlier in the thread. Really, you can’t keep up with all these comments! I am in a group on fb that’s supposed to be “united” but they’re always pro black(mostly) or pro minority – which is fine, but I rather we be pro-humanity than just a single race and they really mostly favor minorities. I don’t understand this to be honest, I am hispanic, I understand the disparage of being a minority race but being against the majority doesn’t seem to be very helpful for us in my opinion. I rather be with them along with everyone else – it just creates animosity among races, and there is already enough of that as it is. I like most of the people from that group but it just chills me a little the way they exclude a single race… why become like those who we have been so against?
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[…] can be found in this article: “Are white women beautiful or is it society that makes them seem so?” A question to which the only reasonable response, who […]
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Raquel Welch and Sophia Loren are not white, but mixed-race.
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@ Roger lee
Mixed with what races?
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i don’t think white women are beautiful makeup helped them a lot,black women are the most beautiful and most of them use less makeup,thats why white women age so BAD and black is beautiful and black don’t crack
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Supermodel Magazine has harassed my life. Back then, when I had just an oval face, no one looked like me, but Now EVERYONE DOES!!!!! And Everyone has the same face just as I do in a Magazine!!!!!!!! My face is topsy-turvy, and my jaw is upright with a fairly short nose. I am The Golden Ratio for The Caucasian Standard even for just being an Asian!!!!!!!!
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Black does not “crack” due to their skin color and the sun, light skin tones age quicker when exposed to the sun than darker tones, not because of make-up. That was just a ridiculous response, sorry.
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hi
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that’s interesting; i was thinking about this thing the other day… you know if i go to a public area where there will be mixed races, i guess, my eye will sort of take account of? the black females, i guess to be disgustingly honest, and well i have come to appreciate certain things like a tone of skin, and certain facial and body features that may not be associated with caucasian women, so these things are learned perhaps except when you stay to your own phenotype? so to some degree, white people would express or perfuse a preference due to what they learned and are used to, so if white people made the film or other work of art… there ya go.
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I really wish hollywood would start using more African American actresses, just so that they can become sought after and black men will stop chasing after our white women.
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” … just so that they can become sought after and black men will stop chasing after our white women.”
@Nyala Lam
Umm.. what exactly do you mean by “our white women”?
Words (in a sentence) matter, too. 🙂
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@Nyala Lam: “our white women” Hmmm…..You sound like that beast that murderd those poor Black people in church in Charleston, South Carolina.
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isn’t that sophia loren in that picture?
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@v8driver: Yes that is Sophia Loren.
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Here are findings from one of a number of studies that debunk the claim that black women have higher testosterone levels than women of other ethnic groups. This study dealt with menopausal women. Every time I find another such study I will post it here. Take special note of the last paragraph.
This from the ShareCare Women’s Endocrine Health Webpage:
“Boston Women’s Health Book Collective , Administration, answered
Until recently there was little information about ethnic differences in women’s experiences of the menopausal transition and beyond. However, investigators for the Study of Women Across the Nation (SWAN), a study of multiple ethnic groups of women from across the United States, reporting on hormonal changes during the menopause transition, examined whether women from different ethnic groups had different levels of hormones.
The SWAN study is following more than 2,000 women, from ages forty to fifty-five, over an eight-year period as they go through the menopause transition. The women are African-American, Chinese-American, Japanese-American, Hispanic-American, and Caucasian and live in various states across the country. The SWAN study is large enough to help us compare the experiences of women from different ethnic groups and take into account factors such as age and body size.
A comparison of hormone levels of women from different ethnic groups threw up many differences. However, when an indicator of weight for one’s height (body mass index) was considered, most of the ethnic differences disappeared. Heavier women have higher levels of the hormones FSH, SHBG, estradiol, testosterone, and DHEAS. When body mass was taken into account, estradiol levels were the same across the ethnic groups.
However, some ethnic differences can be seen even when body mass is taken into account. FSH levels are higher and testosterone levels are lower in African-American and Hispanic women than in Japanese- American, Chinese-American, and Caucasian women. The effects of higher FSH and lower testosterone levels are currently unknown, but the SWAN study investigators will be looking at whether these differences in hormones have any effect on health, for example, heart disease or bone health.”
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@Jonquil
Thanks for posting that information. Do you have a link to a summary or abstract to that particular study?
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White women are horrible looking. Their pale, lizard-like skin and long, beak noses look disgusting. Their hair usually looks dirty and unkempt. Not to mention the fact that the majority of them are fat and flat, or skinny and flat. I see white women the same way I see roaches. The bile rises in my chest every time I see one.
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Wilson doth protest too much….
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Afrofem, doth protect white women too much
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@ Wilson
dry chuckle
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My personal preference is all kinds of women and then some (extra-terrestrial) you never know. I see some people here are still confusing political advantages over actual people in terms of hate.
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