An African is someone from the continent of Africa. That sounds like a simple, straightforward fact of geography, but the strange thing is, it is not that simple.
Here is a list of people and the present-day countries where they were born along with their race or ethnicity. Which of these do you count as African? Why or why not?
- Alek Wek (Sudan) – Dinka
- Anwar Sadat (Egypt) – Arab
- Augustine (Algeria) – half Berber, half Roman
- Camus (Algeria) – white French
- Cleopatra (Egypt) – Greek and Egyptian
- Hannibal (Tunisia) – Carthaginian
- King Tut (Egypt) – Egyptian
- Malcolm X (USA) – black American
- Marcus Garvey (Jamaica) – black Jamaican
- Naomi Campbell (Britain) – black and Chinese Jamaican
- Nelson Mandela (South Africa) – Xhosa
- P. W. Botha (South Africa) – white Afrikaner
- Phillis Wheatley (Senegal) – ???
- Sade (Nigeria) – half Yoruba, half white British
- Serena Williams (USA) – black American
All these people were either born in Africa or are at least part African by blood – or both. But despite that there are only two that most in America would agree are African without doubt: Alek Wek and Nelson Mandela, the only ones who are both pure black and born in Africa. The rest are, at best, African In The Technical Sense.
Why is that?
Because the Western view of the world has been screwed up by the Transatlantic slave trade and what followed.
By the 1700s the slave trade had led to a self-serving racism among Europeans that saw Africa as a backward land of savages. The rise of white rule in Africa in the 1800s made that view even more necessary.
To maintain this fiction the civilizations in northern Africa that Europeans knew all too well, like those of the Ancient Egyptians and the Arabs, had to be seen as not “truly” African. They became a part of Technical Sense Africa. The “true” Africa started somewhere further south where the well-known facts were fewer and easier to deny.
Meanwhile those who were taken as slaves were made to forget about Africa: they were made to give up their names, their languages, their religions and so on. They were cut off physically too: few were ever able to return.
Blacks in America were still calling themselves “Africans” in the 1700s, but in the 1800s that had changed to “negro”, “coloured” and “black”. They were forgetting the Africa they once knew and in its place was put the Africa of white racists – that land of naked savages. Africa became a shameful place – calling yourself “African” was now unthinkable. You can see the side effect of that in the very first word of this paragraph.
“African” made something of a comeback in America in the late 1900s with the term “African American”. That only became possible because blacks started to learn the facts, not the half-truths, about Africa and could begin to take pride in it once again. But even so, unlike Irish or Italian Americans, most still feel the need to add the “American” after “African”.
See also:
- stereotypes about Africa
- Chinua Achebe: Africa’s Tarnished Name
- BHF Magazine: I Am African
- Is Africa backward? – in which I show my own stereotypes!
- “Africa is a country”
- The blackness of Africa
- Names for blacks:
- Transatlantic slave trade
- The white lens
- internalized racism
- This history of black history
- race conscious
“Which of these do you count as African? Why or why not?”
I consider all those born and raised in African nations to be African. However, I don’t consider those born in other countries (U.S., Britain, etc) to be African. They are of African descent, but they are not African. Their life experiences, culture, and sense of self are rooted outside of Africa, so it seems a bit misleading to count them as African. I make a distinction between African and what is perceived as “black.”
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“To maintain this fiction the civilizations in northern Africa that Europeans knew all too well, like those of the Ancient Egyptians and the Arabs, had to be seen as not “truly” African. They became a part of Technical Sense Africa. The “true” Africa started somewhere further south where the well-known facts were fewer and easier to deny.”
Egyptians and other Northern Africans are just that… African. And I’ve yet to meet an Egyptian who claims not to be African. The only people saying that North Africans aren’t Africans are (surprise, surprise) non-Africans.
“Meanwhile those who were taken as slaves were made to forget about Africa: they were made to give up their names, their languages, their religions and so on. They were cut off physically too: few were ever able to return.”
This is precisely why I don’t view those of African slave descent in the diaspora as African; their ties to Africa are very tenuous.
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I think this poses a good question. On J alluded to in the previous post. What is considered African or “Negroid” isn’t as broad as what is considered Caucasoid or Mongoloid.
At any rate I would considered anyone born in Africa or anyone how has citizenship in an African nation(non-blacks included) African. Blacks living elsewhere are of African descent(still African).
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I agree with Natasha W. The only people I hear ranting and raving about Berbers and Arabs in the North not being African are non-Africans. I have yet to meet an Egyptian that says they aren’t African. Its typical of non-Africans to just say African=black.
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Regarding your question “Which of these do you count as African?” I would first make a ‘hit list’ of even more questions. Although most of the people you’ve listed would be unable to answer them, most answers would still be obvious.
– in this particular order :
1 how long have you lived on the African continent?
2 how long have your direct family members who you know and interacted with on a regular basis lived on the African continent?
3 do you have any living direct relatives somewhere on the African continent?
4 if any of your (far) ancestors that you’ve never met are of African descent, how many times have you visited the African continent and for how long?
5 if any of the previous questions were answered ‘zero’ or ‘no’, do you plan to emigrate to a country on the African continent or live there for an undetermined time and possibly get naturalised?
If all of those questions are answered ‘Zero’ or ‘No’ I would not count the person as African at all.
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Malcolm X was born in America but also identified with his Grenadian heritage. Read Ghosts in Our Blood by Jam Carew.
Anwar Sadat was Nubian and identified as an Arab also.
North Africa has many different ethnic groups in addition to the sub-Sarahan African that were moved north during the centuries of Sub-Saharan slave trade.
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Thank you for this, Abagond.
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Abagond,
Not that it means I am right. Its the first time I have seen Augustine ‘ethnicity’ so accurately defined ie Berber & Roman
In fact many of the important early church fathers of Christainity were born in North Africa.
Its just a pity I can not even remember one name at present – What is happening to me??
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With regard to who is an African?? The African Union (AU )recognises the diaspora as ‘African’??
17.1 The Diaspora is envisaged as the 6th Region of Africa. Besides providing it with a say in the running of the African Union through the ECOSOCC.
This became ratified last year methinks
http://www.africa-union.org/official_documents/speeches_&_statements/other/the%20african%20union%20our%20common%20home.doc
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With regard to the definition of an ‘African’. The strange thing here is if Western nations did not conquer ‘Africa’. There would NOT be Africans – because the continent was never a ‘unified’ geo-political.
Then again this can be applied for numerous terms of identification like Polynesian, West Indians, Mongoloid, Caucasian etc
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With regard to North African identifying or NOT identifyiing with Africa.
I think it safe to say they do not classify, themselves as ‘Black’.
Although we can say for sure some of the Blacks in Sudan do view themselves as ‘Arab’.
Personally people will use identity in a number odf consistent and also inconsistently depending upon ‘context’
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A little bit of cheating on my part, early church fathers,
Origien (Alexandria, Egypt), Tertullian (Carthage, N. Africa),
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Hi guys,
I consider anyone of African descent to be an African. Period. Sade is mixed race (no shame in that) but then so to are the vast majority of African-Caribbean, American & African-Latin peoples. Black African or African Black refer to exactly the same people…those of African descent.
As a man of Trindadian-Grenadian origin born in the Britain, I make a distinction between nationality (the three nations above provide passports) and racial identity. The term, for example, African-American is a reference first to one’s racial identity and second to one’s nationality.
You see where I’m going with this, don’t you? The simple fact is that I am an African by race and PW Botha is an African (South African, that is) by way of nationality alone.
Thank you.
Menelik Charles
London England
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PS notice how Indians, and Chinese people in the Caribbean are always called Indian and Chinese? No reference to their place of birth which might be in Trinidad or Jamaica.
I am African!
Menelik
UK
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I tend to agree with Femi’s comment. I have a sense that the majority of African-Americans do not have any meaningful connection with Africa, apart from their genetics.
Likewise, most white Americans do not think of themselves as “European Americans” because over the centuries they have lost that sense of being from Europe.
This is different to Americans who have immigrated from Africa or Europe within a generation or two. Their connection to their continent of birth is still tangible for them.
Obviously, there are many African Americans who have regained a sense of their ancestry and African-ness, but I don’t know that it is true of the majority.
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@ Eurasian Sensation,
sir, if I were deaf, dumb, blind, and stuck on planet Mars, I’d still be an African! My racial identity is seperate from my level of racial or cultural consciousness!!!!
Eurasian Sensation said:
Likewise, most white Americans do not think of themselves as “European Americans” because over the centuries they have lost that sense of being from Europe.
Menelik replies:
doubtless you are not referring to Irish, Italian, Polish, Dutch, German, Scottish, Welsh (I could go on!) Americans, are you? Oh, and surely, the very essence of being European IS being white, is it not?
Menelik Charles
London England
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PS notice how Indians, and Chinese people in the Caribbean are always called Indian and Chinese?
In my neck of the woods, Toronto, most of the Chinese who hail from Jamaica are referred to as Chinese-Jamaicans. The Indians from Trinidad, call themselves ‘Trini’, but so do most hailing from that country, regardless of their background. Funnily enough, the Indians from Jamaica tend to two different descriptions, either Indian, or black. The ones who call themselves black usually have a black partner. From what I gather, the ones who call themselves ‘Indian’ sans the hyphenated ‘Jamaican,’ ain’t to fond of black people as a whole. In fact, I have come across many who aren’t to fond of black folk period. The Indians from the continent don’t look to kindly on their Caribbean ‘brethren’, but they don’t look to kindly on blacks either. I refer to myself as Black Canadian. As a rule, I defer to Ghanaian, Yoruba, Ibo, and other people from the various African countries in regards to who they perceive as African. The people I have spoken to from various African countries, have given me different perspectives ranging from those examples given by Natasha and Femi. For those born in the diaspora, they have given definitions similar to Menelik. I find it fascinating to say the least.
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@ Herneith,
you provide a slight variation of my comments while also adding something of a confirmation of my points prior those you’re responding to now.
here’s what I wrote earlier:
as a man of Trindadian-Grenadian origin born in the Britain, I make a distinction between nationality (the three nations above provide passports) and racial identity. The term, for example, African-American is a reference first to one’s racial identity and second to one’s nationality.
So Chinese-Jamaican confirms my point above. Indians of Trinidad referring to themselves as “Trinis” is merely a term used to placate Africans in Trinidad who tend not to refer to themselves as Black or African but simply TRINIDADIAN.
Take it from me, Bro, the Indians of Trinidad are acutely aware that African-Trinidadians envy their success in education, business and family life and so typically seek to cosy up to those cultureless Africans with talk of us being all one people i.e. “Trinis”.
I am not fooled.
Menelik Charles
London England
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It’s weird, but of all the people on that list the one one I did not consider an African was P.W Botha. It’s not because of his skin color but because this man and those who thought like him saw themselves as superior to Africans. The few Afrikaaners I’ve known seem to feel that South Africa belongs to them despite the fact that their ancestors were invaders from the Netherlands. Some of them (A.W.B. members and those of that ilk) even wanted to establish their own country in South Africa after apartheid ended.
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@ Menelik Charles:
I’m certainly not telling you or anyone that they are or are not African. But I’m referring to the reasons that many of the black diaspora are not referred to simply as “African”.
Regarding white Americans, I figure that how much they identify with their ancestral country depends on how long ago their family migrated.
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@ GreatMuta:
interestingly, Botha would probably have considered himself to be African much more than some others on that list would consider themselves African.
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To Menelik Charles,
doubtless you are not referring to Irish, Italian, Polish, Dutch, German, Scottish, Welsh (I could go on!) Americans, are you?
You’ll definitely find Americans of Italian and Irish decent who will call themselves Irish or Italian without the hyphen, this is much more common in ethnic enclaves that have historically hosted those ethnic groups such as Boston, NYC, or New Jersey. But if you get away from those areas, you’ll find such identification but it is decidedly less prevalent. As for Americans calling themselves Scottish, Welsh,Polish, German, etc… as Eurasian Sensation indicated it’s not at all common to do so unless they are immigrants or their (both) parents were.
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Eurasian Sensation said:
interestingly, Botha would probably have considered himself to be African much more than some others on that list would consider themselves African.
PW Botha said:
I believe that the Afrikaner is an honest, God fearing person, who has demonstrated practically the right way of being. Nevertheless, it is comforting to know that behind the scenes, Europe, America, Canada, Australia-and all others are behind us in spite of what they say….
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=7228515974&topic=16215
Menelik replies:
I think PW Botha claimed a cutely worded Afrikaner identity (as did most white South Africans) so as to rob Africans like Mandela of their homeland and African identities. Don’t you think. Moreover, when push came to shove, Botha made it clear where his kith and kin resided…whether it be in Europe or America!
Menelik Charles
London England
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White Afrikaners most certainly think of themselves as Africans – it is in their very name for themselves. In fact, they avoided calling blacks in South Africa “Africans” but used other names like “Bantus”.
Likewise the British when they ruled parts of Africa in the days of the empire tended to call the people there “natives” or “savages”, not “Africans”.
In Conrad’s “Heart of Darkness” (1899), for example, “African(s)” does not appear even once, while the n-word appears 10 times, “savage(s)” 25 times and “native(s)”, 7.
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Uncle Milton:
I have heard White Americans say they are Italian or Irish – though this is in and near New York. On the other hand even “The Economist” calls Asian Americans simply “Asians”.
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I agree with Natasha. I see those born and raised in Africa as African, and I see those born in other countries to be of African descent.*
However, I don’t see people who lived in antiquity (Tutankhamen, Cleopatra, Hannibal) as African because “Africa” didn’t exist back then, so to speak.
*But like any other thing of this sorts, it’s not absolute. I must admit I see all black people to be of African descent, but not all whites: if their parents or grandparents were born and raised in Africa, then ok. But otherwise, no.
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First of all don’t get me wrong, I’m certainly not bashing anybody who is genuinely interested in Africa’s past AND present. Just a daily dose of realism.
You feel a genuine affinity to the continent as a whole, or maybe even to a major part North or South of the Sahara, North or South of the equator. Then again, Africa is huge, diverse and the reality is that there ARE politically and culturally distinct countries. Which one would you pick as the one you see yourself belonging to? Looking only at West and central African countries, already between African French and English speakers I could always vibe subtle tensions. The rather disciplined and perhaps more repressive approach of Anglophones sometimes stand in contrast to the more laissez-faire but confrontational mentality of Francophones. The difference is quite perceptible in certain details, not to mention all the differences within one region across different tribes.
The sad truth is that a lot of people from the self-declared “African diaspora” don’t even bother reading contemporary African media but instead limit themselves to literary romanticism, over-idolised stories about a battered continent and second hand information from their local media – if any available at all. On the other hand, when some people do read contemporary articles from born and bred African journalists, they are either shocked or immediately come up with a “white-led” conspiracy theory of shills who are sent out to discredit their homeland.
Africa as a whole continent has been belittled and exotified by the West/North for centuries. It won’t do anybody a favour, the least Africans themselves, trying to neutralise the white half truths and lies by black half truths from the West.
Unfortunately there’s also is a bit of hypocrisy sometimes from some of the alleged ‘brothers and sisters’ outside of Africa. I’ve been talking to a lot of POC about Africa. There were always 3 or more of the following points I could see or they would state themselves.
* They wouldn’t eat many of the traditional dishes.
* They pretend to like it but when you turn your back they make fun of the music and the accents people speak with.
* They make fun of certain behaviours that seem odd to them.
* They wouldn’t make any effort to communicate with locals who don’t speak English, let alone learn a tribal language.
* They would frown upon some of the local traditions and possibly even get upset.
* They think Africans make unnatural efforts to be “smart asses”.
* They would go mental in dealing with the patchy infrastructure where electricity and communication outings are potentially a daily annoyance, also in metropolitan areas.
* They would get bored over the conversations after a while. (Politics is a permanent topic in daily life, at least in my grandmother’s native Cameroun. And those are real life basic politics that concern everybody there. There aren’t many discussions about “white people this, black people that”, only when there are riots with black youths involved somewhere in the West. Or when Obama was elected president.)
* They cringe over the thought of ever living in Africa. “Visiting is alright but staying – hell no!”
Experiencing the previous points first hand will make the majority of Western born and raised POC lose at least some of the romanticism and eventually choose to be very… errm… Western…
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Well, the thing is, Western born and raised POC ARE Westerners. Some might not see it that way, and they are certainly different than white Westerners- but they are Westerners and they can’t escape that.
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With regard to:
“The sad truth is that a lot of people from the self-declared “African diaspora” don’t even bother reading contemporary African media but instead limit themselves to literary romanticism, over-idolised stories about a battered continent and second hand information from their local media – if any available at all. On the other hand, when some people do read contemporary articles from born and bred African journalists, they are either shocked or immediately come up with a “white-led”
If Africans on the continent do not know much about other African countries including their nearest neighbour, let alone an understanding of their own historical achievements.
Then how are Blacks outside the continent, going to be reading about Africa. Notwithstanding that it would involve researching 52 countries, notwthstanding the various tribal groups, which takes it into thousands.
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the one one I did not consider an African was P.W Botha. It’s not because of his skin color but because this man and those who thought like him saw themselves as superior to Africans. The few Afrikaaners I’ve known seem to feel that South Africa belongs to them despite the fact that their ancestors were invaders from the Netherlands.
Oh, yeah…like that Terreblanche guy.
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That’s why I put the question in the beginning –
“Which one would you choose?” – or if applicable, which one do you know or think you may belong to?
Just a few sources that I read quite regularly.
http://www.lemessager.net/
http://www.cameroon-info.net/
http://www.afriquemagazine.com/
I also buy the paper version when I see it in the shop.
I sometimes read online news from Gabon from various sites. I was supposed to go on a job assignment there.
As for English speaking ones
http://cameroonnews.com/
and sometimes
http://www.abujainquireronline.com/
(my wife’s family is from Abuja)
I also listen to online radio from Cameroon – when the streaming works…
There’s plenty more.
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With regard to identity and its various conceptualisation
And with regard to the definition of ‘African’ since the homo sapiens sapiens therein. It is possible to say that ‘humanity’ in the broadest sense of the term is ‘African’.
However, because of prejudice, ethnocentricism, racism etc this cannot be said.
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Cheers Femi,
Thanks for the links also.
If you do not mind me saying that by way of the links you provided, it was tied to that part of Africa where your ‘links’ are: Cameroon/’French West Africa’ and also Nigeria.
This is what I was trying to suggest that someone outside of the continent still has a lot of research to do, like Southern Africa, Eastern Africa, Northern Africa. Then you have the off-coast countries like Cape Verdes etc.
Its a lot of work keeping abreast of many of the issues, notwithstanding separating the ‘differing politics’ of what you read.
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Y,
“I think this poses a good question. On J alluded to in the previous post. What is considered African or “Negroid” isn’t as broad as what is considered Caucasoid or Mongoloid.”
I don’t know why since Africa, particularly Africa south of the Sahara, has the highest phenotypic diversity in the world. Although Americans, black and white, have bought into the idea of Africans (especially W. Africans) being only or mainly dark brown in complexion, the highest diversity in skin color in the world occurs in Africa below the Sahara (even higher than in the Americas):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11126724
[Note I regard the racial classifications (Mongoloid, Caucasoid, etc) as bunk]
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^I always forget to logout… the above comment is by me.
Mira,
“*But like any other thing of this sorts, it’s not absolute. I must admit I see all black people to be of African descent, but not all whites: if their parents or grandparents were born and raised in Africa, then ok. But otherwise, no.”
What if they themselves were born and raised in Africa?
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Haven’t gotten through the replies yet, so someone my have brought up this point already, but I’d say many of the Latin American disporic groups (I’m really thinking of the Cubans and Brazilians, mostly) did retain their Africanness fairly strongly. There were spots in Cuba where many people in the town still knew enough Yoruba to be considered at least conversational, if not fluent, as late as 50 or 60 years ago.
That policy of enforcing complete disassociation from Africanness seems to have been more of a British (Protestant?) thing than an Iberian (Catholic?) thing.
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With regard to:
“http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11126724”
Full text:
Click to access relethford1.pdf
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J,
“If Africans on the continent do not know much about other African countries including their nearest neighbour, let alone an understanding of their own historical achievements.
Then how are Blacks outside the continent, going to be reading about Africa. Notwithstanding that it would involve researching 52 countries, notwthstanding the various tribal groups, which takes it into thousands.”
Whether Africans know about countries outside of their own is beside the point since they identify with their respective countries and ethnic groups first and foremost (this goes for non-Africans as well — what does the average Italian know about the history of Sweden? IME, much less than I do). The point that Femi was trying to make was that if those of African descent on other continents are going to claim “African,” then it would neccesitate actually know something about Africa and a willingness to identify with the continent on more than a superficial plane.
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With regard to:
“That policy of enforcing complete disassociation from Africanness seems to have been more of a British (Protestant?) thing than an Iberian (Catholic?) thing”.
Many used to say speaking colloquially off course (not sure if this is the case now with the effects of globalisation) etc that Haiti is the ‘most African’ island within the Caribbean
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Alek Wek (Sudan) – Dinka
Yes – of course
Anwar Sadat (Egypt) – Arab
Yes – of course
Augustine (Algeria) – half Berber, half Roman
Yes – He was part fo Roman society, but Rome was right across from Africa, and he was half Berber, so yeah.
Camus (Algeria) – white French
Don’t know jack about him, but if he was raised up in Algerian culture, I’ll say yes.
Cleopatra (Egypt) – Greek and Egyptian
Yes, but – She probably had little to no Egyptian blood. She was the product of tons of Ptolemaic inbreeding, and the Ptolemies had only been in Egypt about 300 years by the time of her birth. But she was “about” Egyptian culture, and she was born there, so yes.
Hannibal (Tunisia) – Carthaginian
Yes, but – Hannibal was essentially of Phoenecian stock. But the Phoenicians had colonzied Carthage long before, and the culture he grew up in was almost certainly influenced by the people whom the Phoenicians had come to hold sway over.
King Tut (Egypt) – Egyptian
Yes, of course.
Malcolm X (USA) – black American
No. Members of the British Americas (this includes both his parents) seem to have been thoroughly scrubbed of most super direct links to Africa. Only small, subconscious stuff remains, imo.
Marcus Garvey (Jamaica) – black Jamaican
No. Same as above.
Naomi Campbell (Britain) – black and Chinese Jamaican
No. Same as the above two.
Nelson Mandela (South Africa) – Xhosa
Yes, of course.
P. W. Botha (South Africa) – white Afrikaner
This is the toughest one. I don’t know how much of the indigenous culture(s) white people in S.A. from that generation typically absorbed or acknowledged. My hunch is that a country that would implement apartheid is also a country that would try really hard to shield it’s ruling white class from absorbing too much, but I could be wrong. I’ll say no.
Phillis Wheatley (Senegal) – ???
I think she was like a teenager when she came here, right? I’ll say yes.
Sade (Nigeria) – half Yoruba, half white British
No. She’s culturally white British, wwith African ancestry.
Serena Williams (USA) – black American
She ain’t no African, she from Crenshaw Mafia.
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Scipio Africanus,
“Serena Williams (USA) – black American
She ain’t no African, she from Crenshaw Mafia.”
ROTFLMAO.
Ouch, my stomach.
But I agree with respect to Cubans (don’t know about the other Caribbean nations), but I still view them as Cuban rather than African, and I think they also identify with the former moreso than the latter.
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Sade was actually born in nigerian, so that makes her nigerian/African.
She has a british mother and nigerian father, may have come to London like a lot do. But yeap her mix is in Africa as well as european.
So she is both. But african but a british citizen.
I think you cant speak for everyone, as people will claim what they want to, you only know by asking them.
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J, I was thinking about that s I wrote that post, but chose to just ignore it because it’s early in the morning.
I would actually question just how African Haiti really is. That is to say, I would question the assertion you quote, which I’ve also heard, more or less, in other places and from other people. Maybe it *is* the most African place in the West, but I think that question should be examined deeper than it currently is.
Kreyol is fairly Africanized, but the vast majority of Kreyol vocabulary are clear reworkings of French words.
People probably think of vodun and other religious practices coming from that Ghana-to-Nigeria corridor as more evidence. But Haiti is actually fervently Catholic – straight ahead Catholic, actually – and vodun doesn’t really represent that strong of a religious part of the country.
Those are just two things I’m guessing peopel would typically point out.
Then there are the other countries with French backgrounds – Martinique, St. Lucia, Guadeloupe, Dominica. Hardly any of those countries are probably widely perceived as retaining tons of African cultural.
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Cheers Scipio,
I think the reasoning behind Haiti is because of the Haitian revolution, whereas the other islands remained ‘colonies’ until just recently.
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How fitting that this post would come just as I was debating whether Charlize Theron should be called African-American.
South African American is her nationality. Some smartly pointed out that Charlize is not culturally African, since she speaks a Euro-derived language (Afrikaan), and was raised in a fully European culture in South Africa, so despite being born there, she’s only African by nationality/residency.
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In regards to black westerners. My family’s background is Caribbean.
The reason I shun the term African is that it’s pretentious. It’s hard to say you’re African, when you know next to nothing about Africa, never lived there, your parents have never lived there, your parents parents have never lived there, and you don’t care about the politics, culture of Africa, and certainly don’t practice any African culture, be in Xhosa, Yoruba, etc.
Walking around in colorful African robes and giving yourself a made-up African name is not enough to be able to call yourself African.
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Abagond is right about the issue with North Africa.
It’s not blacks who are refusing to recognize North Africa. Eurocentrics and their supporters decided that North Africa, due in large part to Egypt’s ancient glory, belongs to them. They determined that it’s to be separated from the rest of Africa.
To draw wedges between North Africa and the rest of Africa, they started referring to North Africans as ‘Caucasian,’ insisting that Egypt is bi-continental, and not African, and started using terms like “sub-Saharan’ Africa.
They even go as far as to suggest the pale-skinned, blue-eyed people living in North Africa are more native to it that the ‘black’ people, completing ignoring the fact that if they are Cauc-asian, it means they originated from the Caucasus region and therefore can’t be indigenous to Africa; furthermore, they try to ignore the recent and not so recent influx of European blood among the peoples in these regions.
It’s troubling, but because of the Eurocentic dominance, even North Africans (and some East Africans) accept this ‘Caucasian’ nonsense.
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notice how Indians, and Chinese people in the Caribbean are always called Indian and Chinese? No reference to their place of birth which might be in Trinidad or Jamaica.
Indian and Chinese are nationalities as well as ethnicities. Calling a person Chinese doesn’t mean you think they’re from China. It just means they are ethnically Chinese.
Yes, India has many different ethnicities, while China is nearly monolithic, but nonetheless, Indian is used as an ethnicity also. In other words, it’s possible to be ethnically Chinese and nationally Chinese, and these can be mutually exclusive.
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Thanks for breaking it down so adroitly, Femi. And I agree solidly with your points. Most Black Americans ARE stuck on a romanticized “land of kings” Africa concept that is, with respect to contemporary Africa, befuddled – there’s only discussion of the glory of numerous empires, but little in the way in how they interacted, geography, comparative linguistics, or current events since apartheid (officially) ended. It may do much to instill some pride and a *sense* of solidarity, but it doesn’t exactly resonate socially with African Africans.
And the parallel with White/European Americans is very apt: the average American of Irish ancestry, for example, couldn’t hang in Ireland and almost certainly wouldn’t bother to learn the language, music, dancing, or modern holiday traditions. The comforts and conventions of the US are what define us (Americans of all races and ethnicities), for better or worse.
For example, I’m partly of Persian descent. I know how to cook a few dishes, how to write my name in Farsi, have attended Persian weddings/haft seens, how to cuss a bit…but AM I Persian? Not really – I live and work in the US, speak English way more than any other language (Spanish is second; Cymraeg third), have an American partner, play xbox way too much, listen to overwhelmingly western music, read overwhelmingly western literature most of the time, etc.
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In my time I’ve been labeled many wrong things, over inclusive things and things that drained me of color and interest. Finally, in 2010, I thought I could self-define myself, then my teenage daughter shot me down, seems our society is more stratified along ‘color lines’ than ever before, that defining yourself means matching some color card cutout, and be careful, because unless you are ‘pure’ anything, you will be mocked, especially by people who don’t have strong ties with any ethnicity.
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Darth Paul,
“And the parallel with White/European Americans is very apt: the average American of Irish ancestry, for example, couldn’t hang in Ireland and almost certainly wouldn’t bother to learn the language, music, dancing, or modern holiday traditions.”
What? This might be the case for Scotch-Irish in the South, but this is definitely not true of the Irish Americans in the Northeast (mainly Catholic). The Irish in my hometown are immersed in Irish culture, can speak Irish Gaelic, and celebrate every possible Irish holiday. Same for Italians and those of Jewish descent They are one of the few American groups that retain their connections to the Old Country.
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Natasha and Darth Paul,
Not in the Midwest–I go to a “traditionally” Irish Catholic university, and most of the people there are about as Irish as the guy on the Lucky Charms box. Even where I’m from (Chicago), I’d say the groups most connected to origins overseas are those of Greek, Serbian, and Chinese descent (maybe some Koreans). But it’s the Midwest (though I say Chicago doesn’t really count :-P), so it’s not surprising.
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For me, anyone born in a country located in Africa is African…if their parent(s) or grandparents are recent immigrants from Africa and know their ethnicity and culture, then they are African…as for the rest of us in the diaspora…we are African-descended.
I agree that affiliation to a particular tribe/ethnic group or “country” was destroyed due to slavery lumping everyone together…but I wouldn’t say that blacks in the diaspora are totally ignorant…
I know that in Jamaica, (like many of the other islands) we’ve retained in our culture remnents of our African ancestry but I could only make an educated guess as to which tribe/ethnic group it came from…
for this reason, I wouldn’t consider us “African” and also for the fact that other races and cultures intermingled with the African slaves–both blood and traditions–to give Jamaica it’s modern day culture/traditions.
The Jamaican maroons (original members were Taino/Arawak Indian and African slaves brought in by Spain who ran away together after British invaded) began alot of Jamaica’s culture & traditions: the patois we speak, the “bush” medicines we love to use before we take “western” medicine, the food we eat i.e. Jerk Pork–Tainos used seasonings native to the land & the Africans roasted meat underground (jerking).
Children are taught “Duppy” (ghost) stories …most people won’t admit it but I know that many Jamaicans still believe in “Obeah” which is similar to Voodoo and Santaria …both of these are legacy’s from our African ancestors.
As for the Jamaican Chinese that I know, they call themselves Jamaicans first when we are amongst ourselves, I have heard them hyphenate to “Chinese-Jamaican” when speaking to Americans about their ancestry because the Americans are confused as to why this Chinese person sounds like “Bob” the rasta.
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and I forgot the most important tradition gifted to the islands by our African ancestors:
Carnival!!!
Big up to Brazil and New Orleans for also keeping that one alive.
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@ Jasmin –
I hear ya and fell ya regarding Chi-town and the midwest in general.
You know what I loved about St. Louis the most when I first arrived? (oh the irony in this) Question One: What school did you go to? Answer: Illinois State. (Dumbfounded look) Question Two: “No… I mean, what highschool did you go to?” Answer: Ummmm, you’re kidding right. ha ha ha…
Question Three: No, seriously. What school? Answer: “fill in the blank’.
First actual statement: “Oh, you’re not from here… Ok. What do you do?” (it got to be a bit entertaining f&^%$ with people’s minds, but then it was just sad. I was at social events talking to with Doctors, Lawyers, Engineers and kept thinking – these people are really stupid…)
That is why i’m here to say, “St. Louis is the biggest small town in America.”
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By the way: the biggest small town in America comes with both GOOD and BAD things stereotypically associated with small towns.
@ Linda
CARNAVAL — Ohhhh Yeaahhhhhh….. We need a thread on this one Abagond! (Carnaval, Carnival, Mardi Gras…) You name it.
By the way #2: Anybody know that inside the United States, St. Louis Missouri has the second largest Mardi Gras celebration outside New Orleans, LA? Yep… Very heave on the Catholic influence in St. Louis compared to the surrinding Protestant areas and proximity to the bible belt.
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COL,
You went to ISU? So did my mom! (And plenty of people from my hs.) 🙂
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Forgot to mention: the few people at school who actually do participate in Irish traditions are viewed just as much as oddities (when they talk about them) as Muslim, Jewish, international (etc.) students are.
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With regard to:
“and I forgot the most important tradition gifted to the islands by our African ancestors: ”
Carnival derives from European culture
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One of the problem of ‘African identity’, which has not been alluded to so far is, if people in the diaspora are NOT African
Then their history begins at the point of slavery.
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@ Jasmin –
You and I had touched on the subject in a previous thread. I participated actively in the Multi-Cultural institute while a student there. (between 1994-1998) prior to that I served in the Military, so I wasn’t your stereotypical College Freshman. – lol
@ J –
I would grant people “Afican” identity regardless of their ethnic background as long as they were born there. Just as I do Brazilians, Americans, Jamaicans, etc…
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“Carnival derives from European culture”
I didn’t want to be the one to say it.
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@ Scipio Africanus
This is one of the reasons I sort of moved the topic to the suggestions thread.
While being of European origin, there are a lot of strong African influences exhibited in its celebration within the New World. Remove “Africa” from Carnival in the new world and its just not the same! Granted, Carnival is not African. However, in the Caribbean & Brazil, Carnival would not be what it is WITHOUT Africa.
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ColorofLuv,
And how could you omit Carnival in England and Holland??
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I might be totally wrong here but seems to me that this is one of the obsessions of americans, this Roots thing. I have never met people who have been trying so much to belong into some ethnic group or identify so much with foreign countries and regions as I did in US.
Guys in the gym:
– So, where you come from?
– Well, I live in this city but actually my grandmothers father came from Scotland and my mother is french-german-greek-swede-swiss.
– I’m from this city but my family is originally from south-eastern-western part of England and half portugese-florentian-apulian-lowlander.
– Right…
– Where do you come from?
– Ööh… From Finland.
– And? Is that it?
– Yep. Just one country.
– Oh, sorry.
Actually, the only guy who seemed to know where he came from was a black dude with whom I got along more than well. He said that he was american and born and raised in south side Chicago and proud of that too. He did not want to be called african, african-american or anything else.
– Man, I was born and raised in Chicago, damn!
Maybe it is because USA is relatively young nation. It is still in transformation. The only guys who are original natives have names like Jack Eagle Hawk and Johnny Tall Elk. Everybody else have their roots originally somewhere else. Maybe this is why this question is so important for americans in general. Be that african americans, irish americans, american italians, finnish americans, american scandinavians, so called spanish americans, latin americans, chinese americans, japanese americans, jewish americans, german americans, polish americans, american portugese etc.
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One suggestion to Mel: don’t tell this to any kabylian berber:
“They even go as far as to suggest the pale-skinned, blue-eyed people living in North Africa are more native to it that the ‘black’ people, completing ignoring the fact that if they are Cauc-asian, it means they originated from the Caucasus region and therefore can’t be indigenous to Africa.”
Kabylian berbers are one of the most acient tribes in North Africa. They are know as incredible stubborn warriors and very independent minded people. Some of them have blue eyes, blond hair. Yes, they are africans.
If you go to Kabylia and start to tell them that they come from Caucasus region, they might get little bit agitated and slap you around some. And for good reason. The people from Caucasus are nor not blond, blue eyed.
I don’t know where you get this caucasian definition, but I think this was talked about on a another thread. It is an invention. It has no real connection to the real world other than for reasons unknown outside of USA, in US white are defined as caucasians.
The real people of Caucasus are the azeris, armenians, georgians, the ossetians, abhasians and the tshetshens. They all have, usually, brown eyes, black hair, and lots of black body hair. Blond blue eyed ones are rarity among them.
Among the berbers of Kabylia there are people with blond, curly hair, blue or green to grey eyes much more often than among the real caucasians. But, like I said, kabylian berbers are definetly africans. And very proud of that too. So in case you visit Algeria and Kabylia do not, I repeat, do not say to berbers that they are not real algerians or africans. Berber women used to castrate french soldiers during their wars so they are not the folks you want mess with.
That said, arguably the best ever french soccer player Zidane had berber roots. Great, great player. One of the greatest in the history of the game.
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@J,
“Carnival derives from European culture”
Hey J, don’t rain on my parade 🙂
But seriously, please give me more information on how Jonkonnu was derived from European culture.
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Sorry there Linda, I did not mean to do that
Just to say that Jonkunnu is an African derived celebration in Jamaica but this is not the same as carnival.
Remember it is only recently that carnival has been introduced to Jamaica. Previously carnival was a part of other islands in the Caribbean notably Trinidad but not Jamaica.
Cheers!!
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Ok I see what you mean…
I’ve always called Jonkunnu “carnival”…I know trinis say “Carnival” too; I’ve always thought Trini carnival is similar as ours….
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Jamaican Carnival
This brainchild of Byron Lee started as a very small affair in 1990 amidst negative critics and a host of failure prediction from the naysayers.
Persistence, commitment and the desire to share the fun and bacchanal scene, and his experience of Trinidad carnival allowed, Lee set out to create something similar for the Jamaicans.
The dream became a reality and today it has become a tremendous success as one of the largest annual event on the Jamaican calendar. Though many had tried their hands in times past at promoting a Carnival in Jamaica no one succeeded. Out of a dream that was natured over the years, came this pageantry that has become Jamaican Carnival.
The first staged parade was held in April of 1990 and had approximately 1400 masqueraders by 1998 that number grew to over 1.2 million.
http://www.caribbeanchoice.com/jamaica/carnival.asp
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On Haiti retaining more of it’s Africaness than any other Caribbean island.
“People probably think of vodun and other religious practices coming from that Ghana-to-Nigeria corridor as more evidence…”
True, however the Petwo (Petro) rite is heavily influenced by indigenous and native American ceremonies including the drawing of Veve’s.
Is this baby African?
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3060907/Black-parents-give-birth-to-white-baby.html
“Unfortunately there’s also is a bit of hypocrisy sometimes from some of the alleged ‘brothers and sisters’ outside of Africa…”
Femi, I totally agree. Many times those of us that are born of our ancestors here in the Americas and raised in the Americas since the advent of white European incursion and call themselves African generate such questions from me.
I will often ask “when have you last eaten at the one of the many Nigerian, Liberian, Morocan, or Ethiopian restaurants in our area? The answer is often, never. I ask if they listen to Papa Wemba, or have listened to Fela Kuti, Brenda Fassi, Manu Dibango or whomever and the answer is often, never. Then I ask why not? I get a blank stare…LOL
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J said:
One of the problem of an ‘African identity’, which has not been alluded to so far is, if people in the diaspora are NOT African
Then their history begins at the point of slavery.
Menelik replies:
but their racial identity begins at the point of the African continent!
Menelik Charles
London England
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Cheers Menelik,
I understand what you are suggesting:
My post was in regard to this thought (or series of thoughts):
“In regards to black westerners. My family’s background is Caribbean.
The reason I shun the term African is that it’s pretentious. It’s hard to say you’re African, when you know next to nothing about Africa, never lived there, your parents have never lived there, your parents parents have never lived there, and you don’t care about the politics, culture of Africa, and certainly don’t practice any African culture, be in Xhosa, Yoruba, etc.
Walking around in colorful African robes and giving yourself a made-up African name is not enough to be able to call yourself African.”
If the aforesaid is true, then it means the ‘history’ surely starts at the point of slavery, in the Caribbean??
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Menelik said:
notice how Indians, and Chinese people in the Caribbean are always called Indian and Chinese? No reference to their place of birth which might be in Trinidad or Jamaica.
Mel replied:
Indian and Chinese are nationalities as well as ethnicities. Calling a person Chinese doesn’t mean you think they’re from China. It just means they are ethnically Chinese.
Menelik replies:
but the point of reference IS China!!! There are 1000s of such people in the city of Liverpool (where the Beatles were born) who have been in England longer than African-Caribbeans but no one calls them English (an ethnicity) or even British (a nationality).
Mel said:
India has many different ethnicities, while China is nearly monolithic, but Indian is used as an ethnicity also. In other words, it’s possible to be ethnically Chinese and nationally Chinese, and these can be mutually exclusive.
Menelik replies:
but the point of reference IS China and India, which is precisely the point which prompted your response in the first place!. Wow, Mel! Wherever you see a white man, you see Europe; wherever you see an Indian man, you see India; wherever you see a Chinaman, you see China. But whenever you see an African-American man, you see a bunch of chains, and sadistic whips!
It matter not that many Americans cannot point to India or China on the map, the point of reference is always India and China. I am a descendent of slaves whose point of reference IS Africa!
Thank you.
Menelik Charles
London England
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Mel said:
The reason I shun the term African is that it’s pretentious. It’s hard to say you’re African, when you know next to nothing about Africa, never lived there, your parents have never lived there, your parents parents have never lived there, and you don’t care about the politics, culture of Africa, and certainly don’t practice any African culture.
Menelik replies:
wow, Mel, if the “Willie Lynch” character were true, he’d love you! Anyway, here’s a debate I had with a sister about how we can bridge the cultural gap issue. It’s real long, but I hope you enjoy it.
http://blackmenconfrontingthelies.blogspot.com/2009/03/are-ir-black-women-victims-of.html
Menelik Charles
London England
PS in the debate I post under ‘anonymous’ but sign off as myself, Menelik Charles.
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I see everyone as african you listed except people who’s families have lived in a different nation for generations. like the black people in america cant connect with their african roots.. they dont have the same culture anymore. now they are just americans in my eyes, who are black
like i come from an african family and i have just as much in common with the african slave descendants in america as with white people, or asians. just cause we’re black doesnt mean we have the same culture. african culture is just different.. and very diverse too
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Abagond’s question made me think, and I was surprised by some of my answers.
– African:
. Alek Wek
. Anwar el Sadat
. Cleopatra (She was partly of African descent and mostly of African culture)
. King Tut
. Nelson Mandela
. Phillis Wheatley
– Of African descent:
. Malcolm X
. Marcus Garvey
. Naomi Campbell
. Serena Williams
. Shade (Though choice. I first filed her under “African”, but her mostly british background made me change my mind)
– Uncertain:
. Augustine (I had to google that one…)
. Hannibal (Actually I always considered him African, but that Phoenician argument of Scipio makes sense… Still, I’m not sure. I will have to further investigate the matter.)
– Not African:
. Camus (a french guy who incidentally happen to be born in Africa is still a french guy to me)
– Definitely not African:
. P.W. Botha (See Camus above, but replace “french” by “dutch” or whatever this thing is descended from. That racist piece of sh!t, African?? Gimme a break…)
To be able to decide estimate the African legacy in the african-descended diaspora, one needs to have some familiarity with African culture(s), which is actually not often the case. I tend to believe that, due to the sketchy and folklorized perception of Africa in the western world, cultural African influences in America and the West Indies are much underestimated.
Still, I won’t argue with an African-descended individual who feels his roots are as much (or more) European or Asian, and who do not feel any particular link to Africa. On the other hand I feel kinship for those who feel their African heritage is dominant.
I have much to say regarding the topic and the comments, but I have little time right now.
I’ll be back.
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is that a promise?
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Natasha,
What if they themselves [whites] were born and raised in Africa?
In that case, yes, I do see them as African. I know it probably doesn’t make much sense, but that’s how I see it.
I guess the problem here is nobody knows what “African” really means. But it’s not just an African problem. You could say the same thing for America (what “American” really means), or other continents, including Europe.
I know this all sounds too much like pointless blah blah blah, but it is true: the term “African” has different meanings for different people.
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J said:
One of the problem of an ‘African identity’, which has not been alluded to so far is, if people in the diaspora are NOT African
Then their history begins at the point of slavery.
Menelik replies:
but their racial identity begins at the point of the African continent!
@ J and Menelik, Do we disregard all the information of the Americas, including the Caribbean, being populated not only by Africans prior to the advent of whites from Europe coming to the Americas, but from the South Pacific?
Should we label people that are from the South Pacific as African? If so, shouldn’t we then label whites from Europe African? As the Roman general and historian Pliny, writes of “swarthy people inhabiting the British Isles. Or is skin colour the determining factor of labeling people African? Can we not consider a time when black skinned (this includes light skin negroid types) people covered the Earth?
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Wit regard to:
“Hannibal (Actually I always considered him African, but that Phoenician argument of Scipio makes sense… Still, I’m not sure. I will have to further investigate the matter.)”
From what I can remember, as for Hannibal’s identity, he was born in the city of Carthage.
The Phoencians (akin to the Cannanites in the bible) left around the area of ‘Middle East’ and built cities in Carthage (ie around Tunisia), abround 800 BC.
Phonecians are usually viewed as ‘Semitic’, with connotations that CANNOT be ‘Black/African’.
As we have seen on this blog elsewhere ‘Africoid’ types had existed in the Middle East/Arabia etc.
Since Carthage had been influenced by Semeticism, the argument often suggested is that Hannibal could not have been ‘Black and/or African’
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Cheers Ensayn,
I think one would have to disregard the African presence in the Americas pror to Columbus, if we are being logically consistent.
I suggest this because if we follow the ratonalisation, the demarcation for those who suggest they are Brazilians, Barbadian etc must be the beginning date of those respective countries which is slavery.
I am willing to admit that there could be one other possibility that these individuals may choose to ‘co-opt’ the history of the Amer-Indians, Arawaks etc as their own also.
I hope this makes some sort of sense.
As for the Pacific, this is a very interesting area.
And finally at one point in time because of how natur is/was constructed, the ‘Africoid’ type were the only ones on the face of the earth in Africa, and then subsequently in parts over the world, up until the ice age era – that is teh evidence we have before us thus far
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I remember being on a bus in Toronto, and an East Indian girl proudly claimed to be African. I assume she was born and raised in Tanzania or Ugando. I also had an East Indian friend who identified as African (she was from Tanzania).
Race has nothing to do with one’s national identity. There are Black Europeans and White Africans. Not sure about Asia though since it appears that those who identify themselves as Asian are racially the same.
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You are only an African if you were born in Africa. You can be born someplace else and have African culture though, like if your parents pass it down. It doesn’t matter if you are black, white, yellow, etc.
I don’t consider the slave descendants in America to be African anymore.. they don’t have African culture anymore. They have created their own American culture. Yeah their descendants came from Africa but so did everyone else in the world.
African citizenship and/or African culture is necessary to be African in my book.
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Ensayn,
I see Yakub is up to his old tricks again, with that baby.
(j/k)
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EnSayN said:
Menelik, Do we disregard all the information of the Americas, including the Caribbean, being populated not only by Africans prior to the advent of whites from Europe coming to the Americas, but from the South Pacific?
Should we label people that are from the South Pacific as African? If so, shouldn’t we then label whites from Europe African? As the Roman general and historian Pliny, writes of “swarthy people inhabiting the British Isles. Or is skin colour the determining factor of labeling people African? Can we not consider a time when black skinned (this includes light skin negroid types) people covered the Earth?
Menelik replies:
I would be more than willing to respond to what you have to say but rhetorical questions have their own answers built into the questions! So, please just maybe a couple of straight question, and we can go from there.
Thanks
Menelik Charles
London England
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Dee said:
I don’t consider the slave descendants in America to be African anymore.. they don’t have African culture anymore. They have created their own American culture. Yeah their descendants came from Africa but so did everyone else in the world.
Menelik asks:
hi Dee, could you please give us some cultural examples produced by “slave descendants” (you don’t called them the N-word, nor coloured, nor Black, nor African)?
M Charles
UK
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Ensayn,
To be serious for a moment, though, the first thought I had when seeing that babay was to say that that’s probably how white people, and other “races” arose in the first place. Some Africans soemwhere in cenmtral Europe thousands of years ago just popped out a little white child from out of nowhere. Then that kids traits get passed on, and before you know it, you have Vikings.
Plus, that child’s facial features looks straight subsaharan to me.
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Menelik: Well I couldn’t say African-Americans or Black Americans because not all black people in America were slave descendants. Often the ones who aren’t still have African culture because they are part of the first generations to live in America. And I don’t use words like the ‘N-word’ or ‘colored’
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/14/africans.in.america/index.html
There’s one example, from an article. But I also experience it personally because I’m part of the first generation of my family to live in America. I came here when I was 6, from the UK, and I’ve developed some American culture but at home its mostly African, cause my parents and etc all came from Cameroon.
Like I feel different from the other black people here. With other black Africans its like we have more in common for some reason. The schools I’ve been to have been pretty diverse, in good towns, but for some reason most of the black people I saw felt they must be “ghetto” and stuff like that.
Some I understood, cause they moved from this other town which was pretty poor and stuff (people of different races who moved from there as well acted similar.. some Spanish people for example), but a lot of others have been like living in the suburbs and stuff. I dont know if they feel like they must act that way or if thats just their family’s culture
I wonder if that’s really how they feel or they just do it to fit in, or they are just closed-minded to other things. Like someone once called me an oreo cause I like to listen to rock music (alt).. wtf?
And like I cant talk about African things with them.. like food, Cameroon, special get-togethers, African jokes, etc. For that I talk to other Africans, most of them from my huge family or they are family friends, which I consider family anyways. Im not the only one in my family to feel the way I do either. Theres obviously a difference between Africans and the ones who’ve been in America for generations. If I stayed in America and my descendants stayed here for generations, the culture could be lost and they wouldn’t really be African anymore too
I’m just saying they seem different to me.. even though I’ve been friends with black people that I dont really consider African, like someone doesn’t have to be exactly like me to be my friend. Im friends with all types of people. but sometimes I can’t really relate to things they talk about I guess, like as if they were spanish, asian, or white. It would be easier to talk about racism with them though.. but I still feel I relate the most with other Africans in my situation
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@ Menelik Charles, Yakub ha, peace and understanding!
Do you consider the dark skin people of the South Pacific Africans? If so why?
@ Scipio Africanus,
I had the same thought.
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@ EnSayn,
I cannot what I might have said to prompt anyone to ask me such a question. Please, do tell. Quote me, if possible…I’d appreciate it.
Thanks
Menelik Charles
London England
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Dee said:
I don’t consider the slave descendants in America to be African anymore.. they don’t have African culture anymore. They have created their own American culture. Yeah their descendants came from Africa but so did everyone else in the world.
Menelik asks:
hi Dee, could you please give us some cultural examples produced by “slave descendants” (you don’t called them the N-word, nor coloured, nor Black, nor African)?
Dee said:
Menelik: well I couldn’t say African-Americans black people in America were slave descendants. Often the ones who aren’t still have African culture because they are part of the first generations to live in America. And I don’t use words like the ‘N-word’ or ‘colored’.
Menelik replies:
the point, Dee, is that “slave descendants” is not an identity you’ll find on any census form in the world, least of all in the US! You gave these people you labelled as such no other identity. So what are they then?
Menelik Charles
London England
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EnSayn said:
@ Menelik Charles, Yakub ha, peace and understanding!
Do you consider the dark skin people of the South Pacific Africans? If so why?
Menelik replied:
I cannot think what I might have said to prompt anyone to ask me such a question. Please, do tell. Quote me, if possible…I’d appreciate it.
Thanks
Menelik Charles
London England
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That’s just a way to referring to them. Do you have any other way to distinctify when you are talking about them and Africans seperately? Americans of African descent with American culture? That’s all I got. Cause someone can be an American of African descent with African culture. Its like if I was talking about Jews whose descendants weren’t in the Holocaust, and Jews whose descendants were in the Holocaust. Im not putting them down for their ancestry or anything, I just don’t know any other word to describe things like that
Maybe we need to come up with a new word for “Africans of African descent with American culture”.. but its just not used often cause in America people like to group all black people into one blob. Their identity is American. There is black American culture with the blues, r&b, rock, gospel, food, mannerisms, clothing, etc. Do you have a problem with that just because this culture hasn’t been around for generations on generations on generations? American culture in general is still pretty new, excluding Native Americans. Yeah black people were taken against their will to America but because of that a new culture has developed whether people like it or not
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@Menelik
“I consider anyone of African descent to be an African. Period. Sade is mixed race (no shame in that) but then so to are the vast majority of African-Caribbean, American & African-Latin peoples. Black African or African Black refer to exactly the same people…those of African descent.”
This creates asymetrical racial definitions though. You may define an African as anyone of African descent but can’t simultaneously define, say, an Indian as anyone of Indian descent (unless you admit multiracial identity). A Trini who is 80% Indian and 20% African would fall under both definitions. You need to provide a good explanation for why African ancestry takes precedence over other types of ancestry. On the other hand, you can define an African as anyone with a predominance of African descent and create analogous definitions for other groups.
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Ensayn,
With regard to people in the Pacific, I would consider them to be ‘African’. However, there are some who would not consider themselves as such – and understandbly so.
Since when they left ‘Africa’ there was no ‘Africa’
There is research that these groups left around from the region Tanzania many thouands of years off course.
I have first hand experience and also through book source that the Fijas – or at least some – I cannot say what percentage – are aware of another possible origin, bt do not use that but rather the existing home of place as their ‘identity’
All in all it just reveals how ‘fluid’ identity can be. Since when we speak of a ‘racial African identity’. This only comes about because of ‘processes’ impacted on groups within a certain landspace.
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With regard to my last comment:
“All in all it just reveals how ‘fluid’ identity can be. Since when we speak of a ‘racial African identity’. This only comes about because of ‘processes’ impacted on groups within a certain landspace”
What I meant to say, and I have stated it earlier. Black people only became ‘Africans’ because of the ‘contact’ and the ‘political actions’ of Europeans.
If this did not happen, I can more or less guarantee that we would probably not be speaking of ‘African’ identity on this board now
This is what I meant when I alluded to ‘processes impacted on groups within a certain landscape’
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Following on from J’s last comment.
Black people only became “Black” because of the contact and political actions of white Europeans too!!!
Both terms or descriptions “African” and “Black” were derived from intimate contact with “others”. This was the mentality or psychological mind set of the then white Europeans. (how they defined themselves unconsciously) Not that a great deal has changed now. Just by looking at America today!!!
I would like to pose a different question here on all this discussion of who is and who isn’t African.
Why is it so important to want to place people; regardless of where they were born, and which parents they were born to; into separate and distinct categories?
In whose interest does it serve?
What are some of the implicit assumptions built in behind the intricate classifications being debated here?
Its been debated time and time again here that there is no scientific basis for the classification of differing peoples into “races” so why do we still persist?
Where does this implied notion of starting from a “pure” race of people come from? If this were ever possible!!
And why wouldn’t this also apply to identity?
If a person can be male, a doctor, a child, a rapist, a Judge, bi-sexual or a holy and spiritual monk. Why is it so difficult for us to conceive of the same for someone who might claim to be: African, French, Russian, Jewish, Black, Armenian, white, Polish and American even Alien?
Or maybe some people might think identity too should be fixed and pure.
Why does identity have to be viewed as fixed, static or incapable of growth? Who is defining the limits?
And again if you think it should be so why is it so important for you to be able to define people as such?
I am not saying defining people is unimportant or doesn’t matter. Its obviously helpful when explaining things. What I am saying why is can not these definitions be allowed to grow and expand. When do they always appear to have to contract?
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Defining people is important because of identity. People have their own personal identities, but also they have collective identities. It’s what makes them “them”.
I am not a huge fan of collective identities either, but I can tell most of the people don’t share my opinion so I respect that.
Also, “who you are” consists of two things: the way you see yourself, and the way others see you. You might see yourself as an X, but if everybody else see you and treat you like Y, it’s just pointless.
In case of people who identify themselves as black, especially, I might say, black Americans, to say not to see them as black- especially if you’re white- is a huge insult. It means denying a large part of who they are. Even if the thing is not really there (like race- race doesn’t exist biologically), but because it exist culturally, it is there, and it is a big deal.
Again, I do repeat: I am not a huge fan of collective identities but one must respect the need and wish of so many others who choose to identify themselves as members of particular group(s). That’s why becomes important who is African and who is not, and what it means to be African in the first place. But the problem is, people don’t really stop to think and define these terms; they just go with what feel “natural” and logical to them, and it’s often not natural at all, it’s cultural- it’s something they learned growing up in a particular culture.
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@ Kwamla
I totally agree
@ Mira
Why should it be a big deal for a white person to see a black person as being black? As long as they understand and aren’t oblivious to racial issues a white person shouldn’t see them as a black person, but just as a person. People have attributes and having dark or light skin is one of them. I don’t think a big deal should be made about it. Just because people are black or white doesn’t mean they are going to act a certain way, so I don’t get the “wanting to belong in a group” aspect. You’d have to have a similar culture, and black people have different cultures all over the world, just like everyone else
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I don’t know if it’s a big deal for whites to see blacks as black. From what I can tell, it’s not: they do see black as black. They, however, fail to see themselves as white.
But because they don’t understand racism, many of them believe that admitting to notice a person’s race is a bad thing. That being colour blind is the best. Maybe, but nobody is colour blind. Everybody see race.
Now, as far as wanting to belong in a group, it’s a human aspect. That’s what people are. They need to have some sort of identification and, like it or not, they always identify with certain groups. These groups don’t have to be racial. They can be national. Or religious. Or gender. Or whatever. But every person has a full right to identify any way he or she wants. If black Americans feel the need to identify themselves as belonging to one group, and if others (namely, white Americans) see them as members of one group, I don’t see why you or I should oppose.
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Kwamla and Dee, I totally agree with you. As long as there is this “race” concept and it is used, there will be racism. We should get rid of it. I try to do so. I refuse to make any descions about people which are based on their color or any other such thing. I refuse to believe there is more than one human race.
There are different kinds of people, different looks and cultures, but only one race. But to say that whites and blacks are different race? Well, that is based on their skin color, their looks. So why not create a new race for fat people? Or skinny people? Or short? Or tall?
It is not easy, but I refuse to uphold this concept of race in my life. I don’t deny cultures or nationalities, languages or such. But I refuse to believe that there is more than one human race. There is just one.
Anybody who states that there are different separate races, is basically a racist. By saying that, they are forcing this idea of separate races and this leads to racism. I’m not naive nor I’m not blind, but this is the way I see it. As long as you promote the idea of different races, you are basically promoting racism. Weather you like it or not, wetaher that is your intention or not.
So I have decided that I will not be categorized by any race epithet. I am just me. Others may put me in some locker or the other, but I’m just me. My skin is white, yes, but that is my skin. It is not who I am. Your skin may be black, but that is just your skin. That is not who you are. You are much, much more than that.
I have a long beard. Is that part of my race or culture? What does that say racially? Absolutely nothing. I get very dark tan. Does it make me what? I have a black hair. If my skin is brown and I have a black hair, I might be latin just by the looks. But I’m not.
The concept of race is the whole base for racism. That is the first thing we should get rid of. After the fact that there is only one human race gets more widely known, it will be the final count down for the racism.
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Sam said:
The concept of race is the whole base for racism. That is the first thing we should get rid of. After the fact that there is only one human race gets more widely known, it will be the final count down for the racism.
Menelik replied:
then you’d be left with cultural chauvinism. Do you then propose getting rid of the concept of cultural identity?
Menelik Charles
London England
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FG said:
a Trini who is 80% Indian and 20% African would fall under both definitions. You need to provide a good explanation for why African ancestry takes precedence over other types of ancestry.
Menelik replied:
with respect, sir/madam, I need provide no explanation since the whole views such people as Black or African just as they would an Ethiopian or a Somalian. Barack Obama is half white but the world (not I) views him as Black. This is not my doing.
Menelik Charles
London England
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Good points and questions Kwmala
In fact so many I am not sure I can do them justice.
However a lot o f what you ask and say has to do with ‘political expediency’
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How many commenters are going to throw around ” african slave descendants” about Black Americans as if we don’t have prefers titles such as , ” Black American” or African American.
Are we nothing more than slaves? Are you too uncool to be “African” cause we don’t no about African history ( I like how people are ignoring that our African history was stolen from us. But i guess we should just forgot about what was taken from us and not try to reclaim>>)
@DEE
You said: ” Do you have any other way to distinctify when you are talking about them and Africans seperately? Americans of African descent with American culture? ”
African-American is a term used by so called slave descendants because we DO NOT know what country are ancestors are from…
People who have ties to African can call themselves “your country”-Americans. So Black Americans and African-Americans implies the whole slave thing without throwing the word around.
And since *we* can’t be ” African” why do *they *get to be ” African American. fair is fair
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Nice one Sisou!
Why should, for example, a Nigerian born in the US get to call himself African-American but not you? You got Asian, Italian, Irish, Mexican-Americans, and Americans of all countries and continents, and you have to be satisfied with a colour! Something is wrong with this picture!
We maybe a lost and confused tribe of African people but we are the same ones who are returning to our Motherland its stolen history: its dignity and glory. Continental Africans should, therefore, be very careful about judging us Africans by way of the ignorant comments and behaviour of ghetto folk or ‘educated’ Negroes!
Some of us “slave descendants” know an awful lot more about Africa than what many of our African brothers do. This is especially true of a certain individual whose step-father is Ghanain, and as a consequence, has visited Africa more many times than he has the island of Trinidad, Grenada and Barbados, combined!
I am African!
Some people on here are simply uncomfortable calling themselves African. Sixty years ago these same people would have felt ashamed calling themselves ‘Black’. Nothing has changed!
Menelik Charles
London England
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@ Sisou
I still don’t get why “African-Americans” still see themselves as Africans, like they just came from there. Europeans moved from Europe to South America, Australia, South America, Brazil, etc. and have no problem calling themselves Americans, Australians, South Americans, etc. After living somewhere else for generations and losing the culture they aren’t African anymore, they can just say they are American and when talking about their roots say its African. Their culture is American, not African. Or I guess its a derivartive of African culture like people in the Carribbean. But this culture is still influenced by a lot of things going on in the West. See at the end of this I still can’t think of a different way to rename the descendants of African slaves. I wish they came up with a term for that instead, instead of the broad term “African-American”
@ Mira
I think its perfect to be color blind, as long as you realize that there are issues because of people’s skin color still prevalent in society because of things that happened in the past as well as today. But people’s skin color shouldn’t matter at all IMO, with choosing who to hire, who to marry, who to be friends with, etc. As long as you are the best for the job, love each other (and can compromise if you come from different cultures), and have the traits you want in a true friend. But its not like we don’t notice attributes like the color of ones hair, their skin tone, eyes, etc. Maybe what I’m saying should be called a different thing but thats what I try to go by in life.
I wish more people were like that.. and were more open minded about people they meet. Nobody wants to be put in a box but they’re perfectly fine doing it with other people? Jeez. Like if I meet someone who’s of asian ancestry I’m not thinking “she’s super smart, a bad driver, etc” like stereotypes say. I make my assumptions based on how people are actually acting, not other people’s stupid opinions, or even past experiences with people that “looked like her”. wtf people can be so stupid sometimes. because people look similar they are going to have similar beliefs, culture, etc! BS. Even people with the same beliefs and same culture can be pretty different.
Anyways, black people who are slave descendants are more similar to other black people of slave descendants than to recent African immigrants is what I’m saying. Even African immigrants are very different because there are so many different cultures and languages in Africa. Just because african slave descendant people outnumber the recent African immigrants we have to stick to that term they made “African-American”. So white people just call every black person that. What if it was reversed and white people were the slaves & minority in America, and called themselves European-Americans? Europeans would get offended because they’d be pretty different people, and many would want to be recognized as being French-American or w/e because different countries in Europe have different cultures.
So I dont think its fair we should be grouped into the same thing just because of our skin color. Its funny how we’re the minority in a minority group. Us African immigrants. But yeah so pretty much people should stop feeling so anal about being in a specific group because race is just a social construct and theres a huge chance your ancestry is all over the place. but we all come from africa so why not just take solace we’re all 1 big group of humans. Yeah sh** wen’t down in the past but we are all imperfect, get over it and just try to fix sh** up for a better future
@ Sam
I TOTALLY AGREE. Gosh, write a book or something! lol. Culture has way more importance in differentiating people than skin color. And your individuality differentiates you from everybody. Nobody is exactly like you. People should stop trying to put themselves and other people in little groups and sh**. If they find themselves doing it they should correct themselves. Cause thats how we get sh** like stereotypes, racism, etc.
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Dee said:
See at the end of this I still can’t think of a different way to rename the descendants of African slaves. I wish they came up with a term for that instead, instead of the broad term “African-American”.
Menelik replies:
if the term African-American is so broad, why is it so unacceptable to you? The term ‘family’ is also a broad one; perhaps you’d advocate replacing it with another which you are simply unable to think of right now!
Seriously, sir/madam renaming “the descendants of African slaves” should really be rather easy since you could drop the words “descendents” and “slaves” and just attach word “African” to American.
Easy!!!!
Menelik Charles
London England
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@ Menelik Charles
Well if the Nigerian born in the US has Nigerian parents they probably are going to be brought up with Nigerian culture, hence Nigerian-American. I’m seeing it from a cultural perspective. But a black person who doesn’t have African culture and is born in the U.S. just has what makes up American culture, hence is just American. Its silly to still say they are African, because everyone once came from Africa anyways. So why don’t we call every american african-american! I know people want to identify with Africa, and people were taken against their will on the slave boats but I can’t lie and say they are African just so they feel better. The American culture a lot of the slave descendants live is a derivative of African culture, influenced by all the other things going on in America. All the different cultures here. But you can say ANY culture is a derivative of African culture, unless you mean modern African culture. since once again, we all came from africa!
I don’t get why you are “lost and confused”. but I’m not stereotyping or anything. Its not like African immigrants have an easier time with the racism in america than the african slave descendants. Im not being elitist or anything lol. all i want is proper classification. Instead of the broad term “African American” I call for a different name for african slave descendants that isn’t confusing. If african slave descendants were the only black people in america there’d be no problem but thats not the case. cause then people forget about the African immigrants and forget that they are different people. Any suggestions for such a word?
Anyone can develop African culture at any time. I’m just against someone never going to Africa or or living the sort of lifestyle, and then wanting to be called African. Just because I become a historian on Japanese culture doesn’t mean I’m going to develop Japanese culture. That would just be observing it. Like someone may know all these facts on Africa and etc but won’t really be living like an African, or have the experience of everyday life like someone who grew up there, or had parents talk about it, go to traditional events, eat traditional foods, etc all your life. actually living the culture.
I’m African because I have African culture. Specifically Cameroonian. I also have a lot of American, and a little British culture cause I’ve lived in America and England. It doesn’t matter where your ancestors are from if you don’t even live a similar way. Like if I had a Dutch ancestor it wouldn’t really matter at all since I don’t live with Dutch culture at all. So it shouldnt make a big impact on my “identity”
Why can’t african slave descendants be happy with the culture they are living with in America, or any other country they move to? If they really want African culture live with some Africans or go to Africa. Nothing’s wrong with that
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Dee said:
a BLACK person who doesn’t have African culture and is born in the U.S. just has what makes up American culture, hence is just American.
Menelik replies:
then why are you struggling to come up with a term for people who’ve called “the descendants of African slaves”? Why not just call them Black-Americans?
Dee said:
Europeans moved from Europe to South America, Australia, South America, Brazil, etc. and have no problem calling themselves Americans, Australians, South Americans, etc.
Menelik asks:
and what exactly did Europeans do when they got to Australia, Brazil and the rest of South America? Anything we should know about, Dee? And who named these nations Australia, Brazil, Canada etc?
Dee said:
Why can’t African slave descendants be happy with the culture they are living with in America, or any other country they move to?
Menelik asks:
you really are confused, aren’t you? Did “African african slave descendants” move i.e. immigrate to the Americas’ and the Caribbean islands, Dee?
Dee said:
If they really want African culture live with some Africans or go to Africa.
Menelik asks:
would you say the same to Asian-Americans who practice their cultures, and who speak their various languages, Dee? Do you see anything wrong in there being a category ‘Asian-American’? Or is it just “African slave descendants” reclaiming their identities you have a problem with?
Menelik Charles
London England
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I prefer geography-based to ancestry-based identity. People should identify with the countries or regions they actually live in, and hence the populations they are organically connected to.
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FG,
and you do realise that what one prefers, and what is actually fact are two separate things, yes? Thus, I am a London-born, English-based citizen of Great Britain whose parents were born on the island of Trinidad to parents who in turn were born on the islands of Grenada and Barbados. I guess I can take my pick of geographic location for an identity, right?
Fact is, though, I am African! This is an ancestral fact whether I like it or not. Preference has nothing to do with it!
Thank you.
Menelik Charles
London England
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This is why I believe self-id is important. Anyone should call themselves whatever they want but obviously things are not that simple.
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@ Menelik Charles
Black-American works for me but I still think there should be word specifically for the descendants of African slaves, because they have their own culture too. Like when you are reffering to them specifically. Since not all black americans were descendants of slaves.
Haha I know whites did much wrong in many a country. Who named many of the African countries as well? Cameroon was named by the portuguese but that doesn’t mean I won’t call myself Cameroonian. I’m not excusing the wrongs done in the past, but the countries have already been named and probably won’t be renamed. if you live Australian culture why not call yourself Australian? Especially if thats your nationality too. Whites have done the most damage in the world but that doesn’t mean the other races have been saints either. People can spend a lot of time arguing about stupid stuff in the past, continuing conflict and seperation, or we can realize what happened in the past but try to fix the future so we don’t let those sorts of things happen again. Just because someone’s white doesnt mean its their fault if their ancestors were responsible for sh**, if they don’t share those same beliefs. Just like I don’t blame or look down upon people who’s ancestors were part of the american slave trade. slaves were victims
I never said they moved to the Americas. Obviously they were taken against their will, I’ve noted that several times in my previous responses. You misinterpreted what I said. I said “any other country they move to” because the ancestors of the slaves taken to the Americas have moved to other places in the world too. People don’t have to stay in the same place where they grew up anymore, in this day and age. for example, caribbeans in the UK
I think its sort of a different situation. Asian Americans weren’t brought here on slave ships. I think they were able to preserve their culture more. Though I know they’ve been treated unfairly a lot in America as well. I don’t know a lot about Asians but the ones who’ve been here for generations probably are more Americanized than the ones in Asia. Assuming we’re not talking about Native Americans, but things like when the Chinese first came to America around 1820. I only talked about the African-American situation because that was the one I most identified with, so I have a lot more to say on it. I didn’t even think of mentioning other similar situations
Anyways, you’re wrong because Asians do get more classifications. Just look at the census report. http://2010.census.gov/2010census/how/interactive-form.php (check out #9). Asians get to be the most specific. But not whites and blacks! Stupid “races”.
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Dee said:
See at the end of this I still can’t think of a different way to rename the descendants of African slaves. I wish they came up with a term for that instead, instead of the broad term “African-American”.
Menelik replies:
if the term African-American is so broad, why is it so unacceptable to you? The term ‘family’ is also a broad one; perhaps you’d advocate replacing it with another which you are simply unable to think of right now!
Seriously, sir/madam renaming “the descendants of African slaves” should really be rather easy since you could drop the words “descendents” and “slaves” and just attach word “African” to American.
Easy!!!!
Menelik Charles
London England
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Dee said:
a BLACK person who doesn’t have African culture and is born in the U.S. just has what makes up American culture, hence is just American.
Menelik replies:
then why are you struggling to come up with a term for people who’ve called “the descendants of African slaves”? Why not just call them Black-Americans?
Menelik Charles
London England
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Dee said:
Black-American works for me…
Menelik asks:
why don’t you concede that you’ve shifted the goal posts in order to accommodate the numerous contradictions in your statements above?
Dee said:
I still think there should be word specifically for the descendants of African slaves, because they have their own culture too.
Menelik says:
I can promise you that you cannot give one single example of African-American culture: not one! Try it!
Menelik Charles
London England
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Dee said:
I don’t know a lot about Asians but the ones who’ve been here for generations probably are more Americanized than the ones in Asia.
But they’re still called Asian-Americans!
M Charles
UK
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@ Menalik Charles
But everyone is African..then. Or Asians and Europeans aren’t African anymore since they left the continent such a long time ago? I totally agree with FG’s comment at 2:17:58 btw. I know some white people who have ancestry from so many different European countries but its not a big deal because they’re happy living the way they are today.
@ Jade
I disagree. Okay, today I’m going to be Japanese even though I’ve never lived there and don’t live the culture!! Just because it makes me so happy inside to be in that group even if its not really revelant to my life! If you’re going to self-identify, be realistic. Someone lives in Haiti, they live the Haitian way. You are not in Africa, you are not living African culture, you are living Haitian culture whether you like it or not. If you want to live in a different culture, live someplace else.
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@ Menalik Charles
Because most black people in America are african slave descendants, most Americans treat us like we’re all the same with terms like “African-American”, when we are diverse people
Goal-posts? what do you mean by that? I don’t get what contradiction I’ve made in calling americans of african slave descent black-american. it makes more sense than them considering themselves african-americans, seeing as most of them have never been to Africa and dont live with african cultures. although I don’t like the whole “race” system, most of America doesn’t seem to have a problem with using it so ‘Black American’ makes sense in this day and age, since you can be black anywhere, its just a physical attribute. But at the same time people from other places who werent descendants of the African slave trade (ive said that so many times lol) are also black as well.. which is why I still feel discontent with it.
African American culture is young, the production of which, has been shaped and altered by the collective experiences of African Americans up to this point in the U.S. There IS such a thing as AA culture. It’s just nowhere near as ancient as virtually all the others. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_American_culture One example is hiphop, both the dance and the music.
“But they’re still called Asian-Americans!” you said. not according to the census. you left that part out. they get way more categories in the census.
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“Black American” is good enough for this “descendant of African slaves”. After all, we are the ones who first embraced “Black” as a racial/ethnic identifier during a time when many others still considered “Black” an insult, and were content to remain Negroes and Coloreds.
If there are black immigrants who fear being associated by the “powers that be” with “the descendants of African slaves”, then maybe they should be the ones who conjure up a nifty new name for themselves — a dignified one that emphasizes the supposed non-slave status of all their ancestors!
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Menelik asked:
would you say the same to Asian-Americans who practice their cultures, and who speak their various languages, Dee? Do you see anything wrong in there being a category ‘Asian-American’?
Dee replied:
you’re wrong because Asians do get more classifications. Just look at the census report:
http://2010.census.gov/2010census/how/interactive-form.php (check out #9). Asians get to be the most specific.
Menelik replies:
I never said they had less, I merely asked whether you had a problem with there being a category ‘Asian-American’ (see above for confirmation!). I also made references to Asian cultures (plural) and languages (plural) and so obviously I’m fully aware of the distinctions between Asian-American people.
You, on the other hand, do not seem to be aware, or perhaps, do not care, that we have had to fight to get from slave, to nigger, to Negro, to colored, to Afro-American to African-American: and all to get a sense of who we are!
Menelik Charles
London England
PS you ever heard of Willie Lynch?
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Menelik said:
“But they’re still called Asian-Americans!”
Dee replies:
not according to the census. you left that part out.
Menelik replies:
OK, so Asian-Americans don’t exists according to the US census…
Dee said:
they get way more categories in the census.
Menelik asks:
“they”? This is a collective term. Who or what group of people are you referring to here? Could it be this varied group below?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_American
for a group which apparently doesn’t exist according to the US Census, you, I, and millions of others, have no trouble placing them in just a single category lol
Menelik Charles
London England
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@ Abagond,
awaiting moderation: why?
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Dee said:
I still think there should be word specifically for the descendants of African slaves, because they have their own culture too.
Menelik says:
I can promise you that you cannot give one single example of African-American culture: not one! Try it!
Dee said:
There IS such a thing as African-American culture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_American_culture
One example is hip hop, both the dance and the music.
Menelik replies:
thank you very! AFRICAN-AMERICAN Culture! We got there in the end!
Menelik Charles
London England
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It is the European the travled the world that named any black skinned person they saw during their travels as African, period. To argue that every black skinned person on the planet is African is to continue white Eurocentric thought. Dr. Ali Mazrui maintains that no history should be exclusive of the people’s own myths of their origins. Some of these myths of origins by various black skinned people around the world speak nothing of Africa or Alkebulon or Kemet.
To disregard the people’s own history in favor of a white European historical perspectives, leaves one at the foot of the white European, no matter how intellectual you want to pronounce yourself. If one wants to maintain that they are African, then you continue to label youself with the white European’s moniker. Feel free to do so.
There was a recent “discovery” of a negroid/Africoid type people in India. The article spoke of these people as a lost tribe of Africa. When the people themselves were queried, they spoke nothing of deriving from Africa. None of their oral tradition spoke of Africa, yet the white author of the article still referred to them as a lost tribe of Africa. And, yet there are black people that chime in and agree, basically saying these people don’t know who they are. No matter what they say they are labeled as African.
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@Menelik,
“with respect, sir/madam, I need provide no explanation since the whole views such people as Black or African just as they would an Ethiopian or a Somalian. Barack Obama is half white but the world (not I) views him as Black. This is not my doing.”
Oh, really?
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1036510220080610
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Ensayn,
With regard to:
“It is the European the travled the world that named any black skinned person they saw during their travels as African, period. To argue that every black skinned person on the planet is African is to continue white Eurocentric thought”
If we then be logically consistent.
Then surely anyone calling themselves ‘African’ must also be also carrying on eurocentric thought.
Notwithstanding that Europeans did not go naming ‘African’ people across the globe.
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@DEE
I hate to keep this debate going but I think there something that needs to be made perfectly clear.
Which is that groups of people get to decide what they call themselves not outsiders.
Dee, You have be told by at least three African Americans, Black Americans or Stolen Africans ( as paul mooney said) that we don’t want to be called ” slave descendants” And now I am telling you it is outright offensive and that should be enough. Our ancestors are other Black Americans and Africans( or do you think slaves werent African? lost that when the boat left, huh?) they should be treating be who they were not by what they were forced to be…
You were given enough terms to use. And your excuse about not being about to distinguish between African Americans and African-American immigrants makes no sense. Because the use of “immigrants” in your own posts makes the clear who u are and are not talking about.
Did u also see how I did those terms? immigrant ( or descendant of immigrant) and not immigrant?
Also, I’m pain so I will point out the African American should have no hyphen when applied to us ” descendants of alot other African Americans”
I know many don’t catch that the hyphen is wrong but
There are a million different ways to clarity the African American from the African immigrants And first generation Black Americans. the fact that you refuse to do so shows your prejudice towards us Black Americans. You can make your point without using offensive terms. And telling us what we should calling ourselves is no less abusive then Whites telling us who we are.
By the way, you said we should just call ourselves “Americans” you know who also tell us that ?White Americans who then turned around and claim that we are not real Americans…
Dee says,
I still don’t get why “African-Americans” still see themselves as Africans, like they just came from there. Europeans moved from Europe to South America, Australia, South America, Brazil, etc. and have no problem calling themselves Americans, Australians, South Americans, etc.
As you pointed out we were slaves not immigrants. Came to America in fear not in pride. And most of us are still treated like we aren’t American…
And to imply as you did that African American culture and American culture mean the same thing is just wrong. You have said yourself we have our own culture…
So African Americans are not American, we are not African and not Black Americans ( cause thats to broad so we should change our name even though we made it and we here first) guess we aint nothing… Blank Americans!( better?)
Since we seem to understand racism, Dee. I am assuming you understand divide and conquer? so stop disrespecting us and lets be Black brothers and sisters.
And thats all I will say on the matter. Because regardless of what other Black people think we Black Americans will decide who we are and what we call ourselves. Stop treating Black Americans like children who can not make decisions cause slavery stole our minds and our right to be respected.
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Menelik said:
Barack Obama is half white but the world (not I) views him as Black. This is not my doing.”
FG asks:
Oh, really?
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1036510220080610
Menelik replies:
allow me to quote from the link you provided to illustrate your point. Here goes:
“many people in Brazil refer to Obama as a mulatto — a term used to describe people of mixed ancestry. It is uncommon to call someone mulatto in post-slavery United States but the description is popular in Brazil’s melting pot”.
Menelik replies:
the vast majority of the world sees Obama as ‘Black’ and have referred to him in their mass media as ” America’s first Black President” (making no distinction between himself and Michelle!). Nit-picking aside, would you like to argue this point?
Menelik Charles
London England
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And I can tell people are getting pissed whenever I say “african slave descendants” but thanks to society, we don’t have an actual word for it, so I have to continuously say that description when I’m reffering to them, when I differ them from the recent African immigrants. If you know a word for it, please tell me.
Menelik said:
“they”? This is a collective term. Who or what group of people are you referring to here? Could it be this varied group below?
Dee says: I’m not denying the existance of the “Asian-American” classification. But Asian-Americans get more classifications within that classification, while there is still no names created for differentiating descendants of African slaves and the recent African immigrants to America
Menelik says:
thank you very! AFRICAN-AMERICAN Culture! We got there in the end!
Dee says:
That is the culture created by the African slave descendants. That is not the culture of recent African immigrants (unless they adopt it), and of other Africans. Its just a branch off African culture, and has been influenced a lot by different cultures and experiences in America. When they say “African American culture” they really are reffering to the culture and experiences of African slave descendants throughout history, which is unfair to the people who don’t share that culture but are still called “African-Americans” as we are all wrongly lumped into the same category.
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Take it from an African. If you did not grow up in Africa and understand the culture (which is painfully different from American) YOU CAN NEVER BE CONSIDERED an African. Being African is a culture e.g arranged marriage, virginity, respect for one’s elders, christian or muslim, strong family bonds and so on.
African is a culture and a way of life not skin complexion. So AA’s, south americans and Carribean people cannot be considered African. They are of African descent though.
When foreigner’s visit even AA’s we call them ‘Oyinbo’ which means light skin/ foreigner because they behave differently and we deem foreigners as special, new exciting and welcomed.
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I agree with Bims apart from the arranged marriage thing. My family’s not into that
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With regard to:
“Take it from an African. If you did not grow up in Africa and understand the culture (which is painfully different from American) YOU CAN NEVER BE CONSIDERED an African. Being African is a culture e.g arranged marriage, virginity, respect for one’s elders, christian or muslim, strong family bonds and so on.
African is a culture and a way of life not skin complexion. So AA’s, south americans and Carribean people cannot be considered African. They are of African descent though”.
If we are following the logical consistency of the words here, its difficult to understanding the reasoning even if the conclusion makes some sort of sense.
I say this because:
respect for one elders, strong family bonds, religion are strong features within the Caribbean.
I am intrigued that you should mention virginity, presumably to suggest ‘promiscuisty’ ‘strong family presumably ‘illegitimacy’, ‘arranged marriages’ presumably no marriages at all.
If being African is about ‘culture’ and a way of life and not ‘skin’. I see you do not mention identity with regard to birthplace. Then with regard to Blacks in the Americas and elsewhere do retain some aspect of African culture – but not enough to be so by your own reasoning.
I hope this makes sense since I am multi-tasking – not my strongest point.
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Femi said:
“* They wouldn’t eat many of the traditional dishes.
* They pretend to like it but when you turn your back they make fun of the music and the accents people speak with.
* They make fun of certain behaviours that seem odd to them.
* They wouldn’t make any effort to communicate with locals who don’t speak English, let alone learn a tribal language.
* They would frown upon some of the local traditions and possibly even get upset.
* They think Africans make unnatural efforts to be “smart asses”.
* They would go mental in dealing with the patchy infrastructure where electricity and communication outings are potentially a daily annoyance, also in metropolitan areas.
* They would get bored over the conversations after a while. (Politics is a permanent topic in daily life, at least in my grandmother’s native Cameroun. And those are real life basic politics that concern everybody there. There aren’t many discussions about “white people this, black people that”, only when there are riots with black youths involved somewhere in the West. Or when Obama was elected president.)
* They cringe over the thought of ever living in Africa. “Visiting is alright but staying – hell no!”
I totally agree with her, that’s the same thing I experienced with black people in some European countries and in America as well…and funny things is that black Europeans and Americans don’t like the way white people treat them but they behave exactly the same way with black Africans. I’m not trying to be mean or hurt people but Africans do not consider black Americans as African they just Americans to us, period, and do not fight over stupidity the way black Americans do such as rivalry between light and dark skin, disrespecting their own women etc…and I’m like why are you so eager to said that you are of African descent while you don’t even respect proper Africans.
I’m not saying that all Black Americans or Europeans are like that but most of them are.
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The Arabs weren’t African. They ruled North Africa, but they came from modern Saudi Arabia. That’s like seeing French people are Africans because of French West Africa.
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What about Andries Pretorius (Boer leader)
His great-great-grandmother was the African slave Nantsana van Madagascar, making Pretorius 1/16 black
And consider his father, who was alive until Andries was 32, was 1/8 black in addition to 1/16 Indian (the Gandhi kind, not the Sitting Bull kind), and thus likely looked mixed.
And the Boers chose Andries Pretorius as their leader.
So much for the whole myth of Boers/Afrikaners being “racist”…there was never the one drop rule in South Africa…
When did White Americans ever choose a man who was 1/16 black to be their leader?
You expect us to accept those born in Europe to non-Europeans as true Europeans. Never mind that they are the first in their family to be born in Europe and have no European blood.
Meanwhile, Pretorius, all 8 of his great-grandparents were born in Africa, and he was 1/16 African by blood (enough to cause him trouble in many Southern states during Jim Crow), and yet blacks are agitating to rename Pretoria because they hate him. (Probably they are jealous of his achievements because their ancestors don’t have comparable achievements).
So, riddle me this.
Why should I accept Sadiq Khan, who has no ancestors born in Europe and 0% European blood as a European, when you people don’t accept Andries Pretorius, who had 8 African-born great-grandparents and 6.25% African blood as an African?
Also, @abagond, if you want to do a post on a great White South African leader who has some black heritage, Pretorius is a great choice. A post about him could bridge White History Month with Black History Month.
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North Africans are genetically, linguistically, and culturally distinct from sub-Saharans.
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