Ota Benga (c. 1883-1916) was a black man put in the Bronx Zoo in New York in 1906:
The African Pigmy, “Ota Benga.”
Age, 23 years.
Height, 4 feet 11 inches [1.50 m].
Weight, 103 pounds [47 kg].
Brought from the Kasai River, Congo Free State,
South Central Africa, by Dr. Samuel P. Verner.
Exhibited each afternoon during September
The head of the zoo saw nothing wrong: after all, the zoological society was for it. But the secretary of the zoological society was a scientific racist: none other than Madison Grant.
The New York Times did not miss Grant’s intended message:
… the pygmy was not much taller than the orangutan, and one had a good opportunity to study their points of resemblance. Their heads are much alike, and both grin in the same way when pleased.
Black Christian ministers in New York saw it differently:
Our race … is depressed enough without exhibiting one of us with the apes. We think we are worthy of being considered human beings, with souls.
The New York Times did not see what the big deal was:
As for Benga himself, he is probably enjoying himself … it is absurd to make moan over the imagined humiliation and degradation he is suffering. The pygmies are … very low in the human scale… The idea that men are all much alike except as they have had or lacked opportunities for getting an education out of books is now far out of date.
This was not Benga’s first appearance in America. He was at the 1904 St Louis World’s Fair as “the only genuine African cannibal in America” (he was no cannibal). He appeared along with Geronimo and others to represent the different races of mankind. Geronimo gave him an arrowhead.
Earlier in 1906 Benga was at the Natural History Museum in New York dressed in a duck suit to amuse visitors. The museum kicked him out after he nearly killed Florence Guggenheim by throwing a chair. They still have a cast of him.
After the chair thing, Samuel Verner, the African explorer who brought him to America, took him to the Bronx Zoo. They bought Verner’s chimpanzees and took Benga too.
The zoo let Benga help the zookeepers and had him sleep in the Monkey House. He took care of Verner’s last living chimpanzee and played with the orangutan. Soon he found himself playing with the orangutan in a locked cage!
Black ministers protested and in time the zoo unlocked his cage, but then people followed him, poked him, tripped him, laughed at him. When he made a bow and arrow to defend himself, the zoo threw him out.
The ministers sent him to one of their orphanages and then onto Virginia where he was taught English by Anne Spencer, a black poet. Through her he met Booker T. Washington and W.E.B. Du Bois. He went to school but soon dropped out to work at a tobacco factory.
He wanted to go home but had no money. In 1916 he shot himself in the heart and died.
– Abagond, 2010.
See also:
A common feature of Western white civilisation vis-a-vis personage/cultures who were designated as ‘Non-White’ non-western ‘primitives/savages’
Human Zoos
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_zoo
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As my mind went back to the terrible film ‘Elephant Man’. I was reminded of a closely related subject, which was a feature of parts of Western culture
Freak Show
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freak_show
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And if it is true, that individuals and/or cultures behaviour toward ‘others’ say in fact more about the individual/culture than it does about the projections on to the recipients??
Then what does these acts say about Western culture per se?
And this is why, some suggest that Western anthropologist would be best served studying their own civilisations and cultures in that same ‘critical’ manner they did for other non-white people across the world, to provide such answers. – but obviously this will never happen
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This breaks my heart.
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The Houston Zoo is dangerously close to crossing the line with their African Forest Exhibit due to open in Dec. 2010. They must have gotten enough angry letters because the tone on the website seems been dialed back; but now there is hardly any real info on what will be going on. There will still be huts and bs like that, but tours will be led by zoo staff. I am so curious to see what the ‘zoo staff’ will look like. Sad.
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SO tragic…
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No words to describe this atrocity.
And this is why, some suggest that Western anthropologist would be best served studying their own civilisations and cultures in that same ‘critical’ manner they did for other non-white people across the world, to provide such answers. – but obviously this will never happen
Actually, J, it is happening. Western anthropologist study their own cultures, and anthropology “at home” is really popular in the past several decades.
I am more interested in the reverse situation: non-western anthropologists studying western culture(s).
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” Black ministers protested and in time the zoo unlocked his cage, but then people followed him, poked him, tripped him, laughed at him. When he made a bow and arrow to defend himself, the zoo threw him out.”
Who knew he was Smart enough to defent himself against vicious attacks !? Only humans do that! Could it be that he’s……..
How sad.
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Agabond, I don’t know if you’ve heard about this or not, but it seems like it’s making a comeback. The blog Stuff White People Do talks about this:
http://stuffwhitepeopledo.blogspot.com/2010/05/displace-non-white-peoples-and-put-them.html
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Poor Man
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Madison Grant… Why am I not surprised?
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And this is why, some suggest that Western anthropologist would be best served studying their own civilisations and cultures in that same ‘critical’ manner they did for other non-white people across the world, to provide such answers. – but obviously this will never happen.
This has been happening for 70 years now. Look up “Urban Anthropology” and Street Corner Society.
I’m an anthro. My masters was on gringos and my doctorate on anthropologists and the BIA. A colleague of mine did her masters on bankers. Her doctorate is on bar culture in Buenos Aires and Rio de Janeiro.
Since the 1970s, post-colonial anthropology has focused on colonial societies and racism.
J, seriously: you don’t have the slightest clue what you’re talking about on this one.
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Great comments; reminds me of one of my favorite Twilight Zones, “People are alike All over”; not clear on how to share Youtube’ links…
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Look at how they treated Saartje Baartman. They made casts of that poor woman’s vagina and bottom.
Why do white people feel the need to treat everyone else as subhuman?
The lady doth protest too much. It is like those men who brag constantly about how big their genitalia is and driving huge trucks. Overcompensating for what?
I wish these people would leave my people be.
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With regard to:
“J, seriously: you don’t have the slightest clue what you’re talking about on this one.
Cheers and yet another one more subject that I do not know what I am talking about.
However, what is consistent here is yet another failure by you to understand the words in cyberspace.
Be that as it may:
Can you name me one White anthropologist that has given an explanation and account by studying European behaviour, societies/country to provide a theory of White racism and genocide over the last 500 years, as it relates to those who have been designated as non-white (here read non-humans)??
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With regard to:
“I am more interested in the reverse situation: non-western anthropologists studying western culture(s)”.
I never really thought about this – but it would be interesting. Though there are a number of scholars who have already assessed and critiqued Western civilisation like Diop, Marimba Ani et al
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And wih regard to freak shows, human zoo, and anthropology back then, were essentially one and the same thing Whites viewing other non-whites as inferiors
and this was in essence my point about anthropology viz.
white anthropologist going around the world studing those they designated as non-whites and inferiors but not making a study of their own racism and genocidal behaviour
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He probably lived longer in the US than he would have in the Congo. The same can be said for all the living descendants of US slaves.
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History, psychology, and economics are the only social science disciplines worth anything. Anthropology, with all due respect, leads to this kind of behavior – placing human beings in zoos. I also find traditional zoos to be depressing places.
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sick, twisted, and stupid. I see no similarity between the monkey and Ota benga…the people who put him there should have been locked in the damn cage to exhibit their stupidity…how bout that??
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Many posters here seem to think that Whites hold a monopoly on cruel behavior.
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Whites are not the only thieves and murderers of history but they are by far the worst. It is not even close.
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I agree with Abagond.
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Can you name me one White anthropologist that has given an explanation and account by studying European behaviour, societies/country to provide a theory of White racism and genocide over the last 500 years, as it relates to those who have been designated as non-white (here read non-humans)??
Nicholas Thomas
Johannes Fabian
John and Jean Comaroff
Pretty much anyone involved with post-modern anthropology, actually.
No, J. You do not know what you’re talking about on this one.
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Whites are not the only thieves and murderers of history but they are by far the worst. It is not even close.
I’d be interested in how you measure something like that, Abagond.
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And how could I forget Edward said, who’s opus is now required reading in every anthropology program I know of?
But I’m curious, J: how did we all of a sudden move from the following comment of yours:
And this is why, some suggest that Western anthropologist would be best served studying their own civilisations and cultures in that same ‘critical’ manner they did for other non-white people across the world, to provide such answers. – but obviously this will never happen.
…to this comment…
Can you name me one White anthropologist that has given an explanation and account by studying European behaviour, societies/country to provide a theory of White racism and genocide over the last 500 years, as it relates to those who have been designated as non-white (here read non-humans)??
So white is synonymous with western in your book?
Interesting.
Said, you realize, understood himself to be writing and producing within a western tradition.
Or is this yet another of your endless tautologies, whereby you define “white” and “western” as writing from a tradition that ipso facto precludes any contemplation of self?
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Hmmm… Abagond and J have some homework assigned by Thaddeus, and i can’t wait to read their essays.
I wish to call on derailment, although Thaddeus has made some good question.
But the legendary epic and systemic failure of western civilizations to follow their own moral compass could only have a few explanations.
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Cheers Thad,
It is interesting you chose to classify Edward Said as ‘White’
(he is an Arab) and also an ‘anthropologist’.
He provided a critique of Western civilisation from an Arabo-centred perspective.
He was not critiquing Western civilisation as a Westerner but rather from an Arabo-centred perspective
I do not know of any of the other anthropologists you have cited, but if they are like teh example of Edward Said, then I doubt if they critique Western civilisation with its racism and genocide vis-a-vis people of colour.
Just for the record I am aware of one writer, who is not an anthropologist, who is Canadian who has attempted to do so, in at least two controversial books.
Anyhow back to the subject at hand………… of Ota Benga.
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Thad:
This probably needs a post of its own, but in short:
Whites as thieves:
– North America
– South America
– Australia
– Siberia
– MILLIONS of slaves
– colonialism
– Most of the world under white rule in 1930
Whites as murderers:
– TENS OF MILLIONS of innocents killed under Hitler and Stalin
– Wiping out the natives in North America and Australia
Only the Mongols and Arabs can even start to come close to this level of theft and murder.
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JGreyden
With regard to:
I wish to call on derailment, although Thaddeus has made some good question.
I would stick with the former, especially as this is not the first instance.
It would be nice to see what you think of Abagond’s and I homework
Marks out of 10 please, Good Sir??
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“This probably needs a post of its own, but in short:
Whites as thieves:
– North America
– South America
– Australia
– Siberia
– MILLIONS of slaves
– colonialism
– Most of the world under white rule in 1930
Whites as murderers:
– TENS OF MILLIONS of innocents killed under Hitler and Stalin
– Wiping out the natives in North America and Australia
Only the Mongols and Arabs can even start to come close to this level of theft and murder.”
I think this is only because “whites” (i.e. Western Europeans) possessed much more advanced transportation and weaponry than other groups. If “people of color” had this sort of technology, they would also have plundered the rest of the world. “People of color” regimes, such as the Aztecs, were also quite brutal, though on a smaller scale.
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It seems to me that Russia has always been more of Eastern despotism than a modern Western power, so I wouldn’t classify it as white in the sense that most people understand the term.
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I don’t think Abagond denies that. Still, as much “what if” discussions are good for good understanding of history, humankind and social process, there is still the fact that, well, whites DID do all those things on a larger scale than the others.
But no, I don’t believe whites are born evil.
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Russians are white. End of story. At least that’s how they see themselves. After all, “white” and “European” doesn’t equal “western European”.
Russians, bless them, see themselves as much, much different than the westerners. Fair enough. But their country (historically and in the present) is still large and powerful. In so many ways it’s more similar to America than smaller Eastern European nations.
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Land can’t be stolen only conquered.
Most of them got sick. And buy the way I think North America at least is under better management.
Please those guy were so primitive they made Africa look like Singapore. No big loss there
The place was barely populated and in the vast majority of cases the Russians let the natives do what they want
We needed the labor and Africa was selling
You can thank us from puling most of the world from the darkest feudalism and into some semblance of modernity (although Africa could have used a few more decades)
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Its odd how we talk about “Whites” wiping out millions, yet seldom do we see people talking about the Conquest and Conquer of Human beings, in Human terms. It seem as though it has to be “Whites”, “Blacks”, “Asians”, etc…
The Incan Empire “wiped” out many native cultures, languages, and people in order to impose their own “centrist” ideas and expand their “civilization”. One of the few surviving ethnic groups that did not succumb to the Incan Empire’s 2,000 mile long reign of (dare I say terror?) were the Aymara. (Found predominantly today in Bolivia.) I always found it odd how so many conversations talk about the “White” Conquistadores and the poor natives, when in fact, the Inca themselves were ruthless Conquistadores!!!
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With regard to:
” Its odd how we talk about “Whites” wiping out millions, yet seldom do we see people talking about the Conquest and Conquer of Human beings, in Human terms”
I think before Western colonialism across the world I think you would find people talking about it in more ‘regional terms’.
As for ‘human deaths’, I do not think you are going to get this to happen. In England many times tehre has been a tragic plane crash with hundreds of people losing their lives and the focus has been on the one person (or maybe two British) who lost their lives.
I am sure this phenomena also occurs across the world.
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It is interesting you chose to classify Edward Said as ‘White’….
Did I now? So the words “Edward Said understood himself to be writing and producing within a western tradition” means the same thing as “Edward Said is white”?
Is that what you’re saying, J?
White = western?
“…and also an ‘anthropologist’.”
And the words “Said is required reading in all anthropology programs I know of” now suddenly mean “Edward Said is an anthropologist”.
Beautiful examples of strawmen, J.
He was not critiquing Western civilisation as a Westerner but rather from an Arabo-centred perspective.
Which pretty much contradicts everything Said wrote about or stood for.
No, he didn’t present an “arabo-centric” perspective: it was a very consciously crafted ENLIGHTENMENT perspective. A western-style analysis of the west’s obsession with orientalism. In fact, Said has been criticized on this point by many people like yourself.
Furthermore, Said himself was a socialist who cosnciously worked within that tradition. He was not some sort of crypto ethno-politican.
You’d do better if you’d actually read Said, J.
As for Said not being an anthropologist, he’s an integral part of the curriculum these days. Darwin was likewise not an anthro and neither was Galton, but you seem happy enough to throw them our way as basic to the discipline’s history.
So why not Said?
I do not know of any of the other anthropologists you have cited, but if they are like teh example of Edward Said, then I doubt if they critique Western civilisation with its racism and genocide vis-a-vis people of colour.
Ah, so we come down to the nut of it: you don’t know any of four of the most famous anthropologists who are currently hard at work critiquing the west from an anti-racist perspective. These guys are hardly minor names in the field, J – I’m sure Mira can back me up on this one.
So what it comes down to, J, is that your knowledge of anthropology apparently stopped in 1950. Your critique of the discipline has nothing to do with what it’s actually doing: it’s based on your relative ignorance of what’s been going on in anthropology over the past 50 years.
50? Hell: try 100. Franz Boas offered up a critique of racism back at the turn of the 20th century that’s still valid today.
What pisses me off, J, is the portrayal of anthropology as some sort of homogenous field run by white racists. More than any other science, anthropology has CHALLENGED the tennets of scientific racism. It was the first major science to do so – long before biology, sociology or pedagogy got on the boat.
In short, you don’t have a decent knowledge of the discipline’s history, J. As per usual, you’re mouthing off dogma.
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@Abagond:
This probably needs a post of its own, but in short:
Whites as thieves:
– North America
– South America
– Australia
– Siberia
– MILLIONS of slaves
– colonialism
– Most of the world under white rule in 1930
Whites as murderers:
– TENS OF MILLIONS of innocents killed under Hitler and Stalin
– Wiping out the natives in North America and Australia
Only the Mongols and Arabs can even start to come close to this level of theft and murder.
Abagond, I’m asking about the comparative aspect of it all. You said “the worst”. When I asked how you can arrive at that conclusion, you give me a litany of crimes.
But the question wasn’t “What crimes have whites done?” The question was “I’d be interested in how you measure something like that, Abagond.”
“Something like that” being – quite obviously – “by far the worst”.
This implies a quantitative and qualitative analysis and I’d be interested in seeing the methodology.
But you and I both know there is no methodology: your comment was simply rhetoric, so why not admit it and we’ll move on?
Btw, interesting that you toss both Hitler and Stalin in the same racial boat, seeing as how Hitler was pretty emphatic about the Slaves being non-Aryan subhumans. With that sort of definition of “white”, I think it’s pretty damned safe to say that you have no historical definition of the race whatsoever.
And since when are Mongols and Arabs a “race”? It seems to me that the only way your comment can even make any logical sense is if you toss everyone who a black american would today call “white” into the same boat (no matter what they said about each other racially) while simultaneously comparing that race to what us social scientists would call “nationalities” or “ethnic groups”.
That’s a bit unfair, Abagond. At least have the common courtesy to use similar units of analysis.
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@Mira
there is still the fact that, well, whites DID do all those things on a larger scale than the others.
Did they now?
Proof…?
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@Mira
Russians are white. End of story. At least that’s how they see themselves. After all, “white” and “European” doesn’t equal “western European”.
No, that’s not “the end of the story”. You’re an anthro. You know that identity has two components: what you see yourself as and what others see you as.
Read Nell Painter: Russians weren’t “white” until very, very recently. Neither were you Slavs for that matter. This is a simple, historical fact.
So it seems to me rather ideological (not to say stupid) to all of a sudden classify every crime done by Slavs as a “white” crime. It seems to me that the methodology being used here is the following:
“If the person has light skin and did something evil, they are white. (i.e. Stalin). If they have light skin and did something admirable, they are not white (i.e. Edward Said).”
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True, Thad, but for the sake of the argument, I really believe most of the world cultures see Russians as white. Americans might be an exception to the rule here, but still, even they (when it comes to “scientific” classification) put Russians under white (maybe “ethnic white” but white).
Of course, we can argue how individual Americans, “westerners” or whoever see Russians; but for the sake of this argument they are seen as white by most of the cultures (at least, they are classified as such). Same goes for other Slavs.
While it’s true most of the Slavs weren’t powerful colonial nations and therefore might be seen differently than colonial whites, it doesn’t change the fact they are a) see themselves as white and b) are classified as such.
In that way, it can be said it’s “end of the story” on whether Russians are whites or not. But yes, we can argue what it means to be white in your culture, my culture, American culture, etc. Similarly, we can argue whether Greeks or Italians are white, but they are now seen as such and we can attribute their crimes to “white race” if we’re into that sort of things.
PS-Said isn’t white???
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As for Hitler, it is true, Hitler saw Slavs as lesser beings (as non-Aryans), but I though (assumed?) today’s “official” racial classifications, whatever they might be, don’t assume that only Aryans are white.
Did they now?
Did they know what? (And who are “they”?) Whites?
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Sickeningly sad!! Similar to the Saartjie “Sarah” Baartman (Venus Hottentot) story, where an African woman was displayed in Europe as a curiosity and abused sexually.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saartjie_Baartman
Just makes you want to scream.
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I really believe most of the world cultures see Russians as white.
Hitler didn’t. Neither did the people who made up the immigration quotas in the U.S. If you’re talking TODAY, perhaps. But wasn’t the focus of this discussion white crimes in the past? How do folks who were never historically considered white suddenly become white when it’s time to ladle out blame for things done 50-100 years ago?
PS-Said isn’t white???
Not according to J. According to J, he’s an “Arab” (and let’s forget the fact that he’s a Palestinian socialist for the nonce. To J, it’s all “Arabs”.)
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Did whites do those things on a larger scale?
Who are you classifying as white? Based on what scale?
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If I’m not mistaken, Harry Truman referred to the Russians as “Asiatics.”
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Hmmmm, true, I was just thinking on who is considered “white” today. Which is a wrong way to go, I guess, since some of these groups were not “truly” white at the time of their crimes.
Who are you classifying as white? Based on what scale?
Today’s “official” scale on who’s white and who isn’t.
I never thought Said wasn’t white (but then again, Middle Easterners are white to me).
Now, we all know that this, like any other discussion about race, is subjective. So obviously J would put a man whose work he likes as a non-white to prove his point. But that’s another story; you can’t have any discussion about race without being subjective.
Still, I thought we were talking about “officially recognized as white today” cultures here. many of those “white” atrocities happened before human kind invented the idea of race as we know it.
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If I’m not mistaken, Harry Truman referred to the Russians as “Asiatics.”
I don’t know about it, but it’s not like it’s completely random… They do live in Asia after all. Still, Russians tend to be very light (many of them, not all of course), so it’s often difficult to tell the difference between them and other light Europeans.
On the other hand, I believe Truman called them Asiatics because of racist reasons, to make them look inferior (because Asians are inferior to whites)? Just a guess.
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Thad,
Just for the record Edward Said was an Arab, and he critiqued Western civilisation in his book ‘Orientalism’ and also the ‘Question of Palestine’ from an Arabo-centred perspective.
Now back to your discussion with Mira, who suggests that he is NOT White.
By citing him as a ‘White anthropologist’
the ball is now in your court to provide an answer…BUT NOT TO ME , on how he is an anthropologist but to Mira,
…On why do you classify him as White??
Hope this response will aid you to understand and give the appropriate answer for once.
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If you’re asking me, J, he’s white to me- I never thought otherwise. Arabs and other Middle Easterners are white to me. I never thought about it.
Also, all of my professors challenge the idea of white supremacy- but they are not western Europeans and you might not see them as white.
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“Arabs and other Middle Easterners are white to me. I never thought about it.”
Arabs and Middle Easterners are very phenotypically diverse. Some look European white. Others are black or close to black. Most seem somewhere in between. So I would find it difficult to generalize about what race they would be classified as.
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Mira,
Then I am confused because you wrote:
“PS-Said isn’t white???.”
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It doesn’t matter how they look, FG. I am unable to escape my cultural glasses and see them as another race, be them light or dark. They- most of them- are classified as Caucasian and that is enough for me. I am aware that a) they probably don’t see themselves as white and b) Americans don’t see them as white. It’s all nice and good, but I am unable to escape my own cultural perceptions and that’s why I never gave second thought about Edward Said.
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Then I am confused because you wrote:
“PS-Said isn’t white???.”
I didn’t catch your comment and I thought Thad was the first one who mentioned it. So I got confused, I didn’t see that coming.
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On second thoughts Mira, do not worry to address that questionI would like to kindly suggest back to the topic at hand……… Ota Bega.
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OOOh oooh too late I see (my last post)
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Thad,
“If the person has light skin and did something evil, they are white. (i.e. Stalin). If they have light skin and did something admirable, they are not white (i.e. Edward Said).”
Isn’t this the same logic that Eurocentrists apply to “black” groups? That Egyptians created a civilization so they are not “black” (or even African!)?
Mira,
“True, Thad, but for the sake of the argument, I really believe most of the world cultures see Russians as white. Americans might be an exception to the rule here, but still, even they (when it comes to “scientific” classification) put Russians under white (maybe “ethnic white” but white).
I don’t know a single American who doesn’t think of Russians as white (no, I don’t know FG so he doesn’t count). Maybe if I ask some old professors they might not, but the general agreement is that they are “white” (whatever that entails is up for debate).
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I really don’t think it true that Slavs see themselves as white. To say so is to oversimplify their history and culture.
I don’t know any Slavs who don’t see themselves as white (if they see themselves as Slavs, they see themselves as white). Of course, not white as “Aryan” or “western European”- but it’s generally believed being a western or a northern European is NOT the only way to be white or to be European. Other European groups see themselves as fully European and white.
Never heard of a Slav who didn’t see himself/herself as white.
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What an indignity to be heaped upon this man. I cannot even imagine how completely lonely his life must have been. I wonder if he was married, had children, had the chance to know joy before his capture? I wonder if his culture uses Griots and if there is any history about his life before captivity?
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Thank you, Natasha. 🙂 That’s what I thought, but I wasn’t sure. Of course, we can argue what it means to be white, but that’s another story.
@SW6
Right or wrong, I started to look for these differences. Today, i would say that i can point out a Slavic person just by looking at their facial features.
Interesting. What would be typical Slavic features? Round face is usually listed as the most “telling”.
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I never said that in current times Russians are considered non-white, though they were in the past. I was pointing out that in discussions of the African Slave Trade and the conquest of the Native Americans, “white” refers to those groups belonging to the Western European cultural area.
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SW6,
“I really don’t think it true that Slavs see themselves as white. To say so is to oversimplify their history and culture.”
IME with them (mainly with one of my best friends who is Polish, my ex-boyfriend who is Bulgarian, and their family/friends), they think more in terms of nationality than race. My ex saw himself as Bulgarian, first and foremost. He did see himself as white, but being white didn’t mean he had any special affinity or ties to, say, a Scot.
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““If the person has light skin and did something evil, they are white. (i.e. Stalin). If they have light skin and did something admirable, they are not white (i.e. Edward Said).”
Isn’t this the same logic that Eurocentrists apply to “black” groups? That Egyptians created a civilization so they are not “black” (or even African!)?”
But it’s unclear that the Egyptians were black. And when I say black, I mean they looked black. Undoubtedly some of them were, but there’s no clear indication that the majority was.
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IME with them (mainly with one of my best friends who is Polish, my ex-boyfriend who is Bulgarian, and their family/friends), they think more in terms of nationality than race.
Oh, you mean on main identity? Sorry, my mistake! Yes, Slavs do think about themselves as members of their nations and ethnic groups (I thought it’s true for all Europeans). “White” is usually not Slavic mind. But when asked about their race, I believe all of them would pick “white” without hesitation.
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FG,
“But it’s unclear that the Egyptians were black. And when I say black, I mean they looked black. Undoubtedly some of them were, but there’s no clear indication that the majority was.”
…This is all not taking into account that what a “black” or “white” person looks like was/is arbitrarily and sloppily defined.
But in any case, Slavics have Asian admixture (and look like they do as well). The majority of them look different from a Northern European. That’s not even approaching the median appearance of an Arab vs. a western European. So it is indeed the same logic.
———-
Anyway, back to the topic: I thought Pygmies weren’t “black” ? These categorizations make my head spin.
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Unbelievable….
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It’s not really whether Pygmies were black… When Ota Benga was displayed in the Zoo the card said “The African Pigmy, “Ota Benga.” Age, 23 years.” Not “Human, Ota Benga”.
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“…This is all not taking into account that what a “black” or “white” person looks like was/is arbitrarily and sloppily defined.
But in any case, Slavics have Asian admixture (and look like they do as well). The majority of them look different from a Northern European. That’s not even approaching the median appearance of an Arab vs. a western European. So it is indeed the same logic.”
It’s funny how you only apply this “racial appearances are fuzzy” business when it comes to debates regarding whether certain prestigious groups, like Ancient Egyptians or modern biracial celebrities, are black. It’s basically a strategy to impose black identity on individuals who don’t look at all black.
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lol, FG!
Well, first of all… And I don’t know how to say this… We DON’T really know what Egyptians looked like. We suspect they didn’t look like Yaphet Kotto or Dolph Lundgren. But it has nothing to do with how they would be perceived today. You don’t have to be of darkest skin colour to be considered black, right?
As for Slavs, I never thought they look like having Asian admixture. Well, some, a bit maybe, around the eyes or something (?) but generally, to me, Slavs do look like any other whites.
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FG,
‘It’s funny how you only apply this “racial appearances are fuzzy” business when it comes to debates regarding whether certain prestigious groups, like Ancient Egyptians or modern biracial celebrities, are black. It’s basically a strategy to impose black identity on individuals who don’t look at all black.’
It’s funny how you always (a) make a debate personal and (b) attribute notions to me that I’ve never expressed. This has to be the fourth time, at least that you’ve been guilty of (b).
I can count on two fingers the number of times I’ve discussed biracials as a general subject (Beyonce’s mother is not a biracial topic). Sorry, not everyone is concerned with your multiracial movement. As for my thoughts on Ancient Egyptians, you can see the post “Cheik Anta Diop” for that. You’ll notice that I never stated they were black. I say racial categorizations are haphazard pretty much every other post. It’s not my issue that you only pay attention to the comments you believe pertain to your agenda.
Mira,
‘It’s not really whether Pygmies were black… When Ota Benga was displayed in the Zoo the card said “The African Pigmy, “Ota Benga.” Age, 23 years.” Not “Human, Ota Benga”.’
The first sentence refers to him as a black and one of the quotes by the “Black Christian Ministers” begins “Our race…” so I took this to mean they saw him as black.
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“Well, first of all… And I don’t know how to say this… We DON’T really know what Egyptians looked like. We suspect they didn’t look like Yaphet Kotto or Dolph Lundgren. But it has nothing to do with how they would be perceived today. You don’t have to be of darkest skin colour to be considered black, right?”
That’s basically what I was saying. We don’t know what they looked like. But to American eyes, the modern Egyptians at least don’t look white or black for the most part.
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They did see him as black, but they didn’t see him as human.
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FG,
If Russians are not white, then definitely Egyptians aren’t white either. They were Africans, and I don’t know why this is so difficult for some people to understand.
The only more difficult thing would be making people understand that race is not a scientific fact but a social construct, so how someone looks like is unimportant, and it definitely didn’t exist back in the days of Ancient Egypt (so Egyptians, Greeks, etc. were neither white, black, brown, mixed or any other of today’s racial category!)
Your attitude makes discussion with you difficult sometimes, if I might add. Nobody was attacking you or mixed people; so why do you have to bring it in every post?
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They didn’t want to see him as human.
I have always been fascinated by this process
recognition – identification – denial of right
To deny a right for a human require first to recognize him as a human long enough for explaining that his right will be denied.
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But, she really wanted to put up a demarcation between her and other whites and emphasizing her Slavness (sorry) was a way for her to do that.
Yes, that is definitely true. Slavs don’t want to be associated with western European whites. They often see the west as “rotten” and bad and don’t see western Europeans or Americans as “one of their own”. Needles to say, the crimes of white westerners during the colonial time are nor their crimes and they don’t want to be associated with them.
In that sense, even though Slavs know they are white, they don’t see themselves the way “white” means in America, and sometimes they are hurt by the reality that non-whites all over the world see them as white as colonial oppressors and treat them as such (they don’t seem to complain about getting white privilege if they decide to live in America, though).
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JGreyden,
They knew putting a human in a zoo, or enslaving a human was a bad thing to do. So they “changed the rules” a bit, and decided blacks and other non-whites are not really human, that they are the missing link close to the apes or something. Putting an ape in a zoo or making it work for you or killing it was not really a crime.
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“Nobody was attacking you or mixed people; so why do you have to bring it in every post?”
You’re not serious, right? I’m able to read between the lines and detect propaganda. People are just surprised when I call them out on it.
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But how can you tell a black from a white, you must first acknowledge and define the existence of black .
That’s the same dilemma that Colbert had to face with his Black Code. You can’t put a law on something that doesn’t exist, so first he had to acknowledge the existence of slaves, only to write a law saying that they had no access to justice.
In Benga’s case, they had to speak with him and make him understand to enter the cage, and feed him, they had to build a basic human relationship with him, and simultaneously deny him his human right.
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I can’t understand people who objectively knows that their theories are erroneous and still believe in them.
Even for the sake of mass manipulation, this does not make sense.
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I certainly hope that there is no one here that believes that the sale of a human being against his or her will is a good thing in any way for any reason.
I hope that no one here excuses the treatment of slaves and the Native Americans in any way for any reason.
I am not sure as to HOW the natives of the Congo are faring because I have never been there, but I hope that there is not anyone here that believes that it would be a breeze for ANY American trying to survive in the Congo… not just the descendants of slaves. Of course, there are always some small exceptions so save the “Great Debates”.
Now, when all of the cute and fancy debating is all said and done and someone wins his or her cookie… I would like to believe that all of these wonderful brains have love and decency above all else.
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Forget my last reply.
It appears that knowledge is what is both true and believed.
And there was no truth to be found there.
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Once again I’m amused by the double standards in the race whiner community. Some pygmy got a bad deal a century and it’s a big deal. Present pygmies are being hunted down and eaten by their big “bruthas” in Congo and you wouldn’t hear a peep from the great crusaders against whites… oops injustice
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2933524.stm
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As an African-American I’ll always expect to enjoy anything that America has to offer. I have as much right as anyone. After all, my ancestors were forced to labor in this place for centuries. Whether or not a fellow african sold them or not, they did not ask to be here, nor did they ask to go through what they had to endure. They have certainly earned it for me. As far as injustices in the Congo or ANYWHERE else for that matter… trust me, injustice anywhere turns my stomache and I wish that it sickened everyone. We don’t all have to be angels… just decent.
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davi said:
“Once again I’m amused by the double standards in the race whiner community. Some pygmy got a bad deal a century and it’s a big deal. Present pygmies are being hunted down and eaten by their big “bruthas” in Congo and you wouldn’t hear a peep from the great crusaders against whites… oops injustice
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2933524.stm
“
So what are you saying? That putting black people in zoos is not such a bad thing after all?
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theebonyangel said, “injustice anywhere turns my stomache.”
Exactly! For this to have happened is completely absurd.
@Davi
Maybe you should go over to the suggestion thread and provide some examples regarding your observations about the injustices in the Congo. Abagond might actually do a post on it if you were sincere and provided some interesting leads for him to pursue.
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Mabel:
This was a very hard post to cut down to 500 words, so it only talks about his time in America which he is famous for. But back in Africa he was married and he did have children. Unfortunately they were wiped out along with many others by an army sent by the king of Belgium to take over the rubber trees of the Congo.
After the world’s fair Verner brought him back to Africa as promised. Benga remarried but then a snake bit his wife and she died. He travelled Africa with Verner and then came back to America with him – a big mistake, as it turned out. Verner was broke. He had no luck selling his African treasures to the Natural History Museum. So then he tried at the Bronx Zoo, which bought his chimpanzees – and took Benga.
It is unclear to me what Verner thought he was doing by leaving Benga at the zoo. Possibly because most of what we know about Benga comes from a book that Verner’s grandson wrote in 1992.
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That is so sad! Poor man!
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@Jeri:
Co-sign. It’s sad he ended his life, but who can honestly blame him? He was treated no better than an animal. What a travesty.
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I wish Ota Benga could have known and told them that Europeans, not Africans, have the Neanderthal gene.
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Racism is too often framed as a Southern thing. The dehumanizing treatment of Benga at the Bronx Zoo and the associated coverage by the New York Times are suggestive of the the level of anti-black antipathy which existed at the center of Northern society.
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FG,
You’re not serious, right? I’m able to read between the lines and detect propaganda. People are just surprised when I call them out on it.
Sorry if I sounded like a bit#h or something. I have nothing against you. I simply didn’t see the connection between the biracial subject and the current discussion.
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Just for the record Edward Said was an Arab, and he critiqued Western civilisation in his book ‘Orientalism’ and also the ‘Question of Palestine’ from an Arabo-centred perspective.
Just for the record, you have obviously not read Orientalism.
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Said’s analysis was rooted in French post-structuralism, not Pan-Arabian arabo-centered whatever. He very firmly rooted himself in the SAME post-modern tradition that most of today’s anthropologists worked in.
In short, in spite of being PALESTINIAN-AMERICAN, Said was as western as the day is long.
And this is ONE of several Western authors who critique the west from an anthropological perspective. “Cultural critique” being, after all, what anthros do these days.
Face it, J: you seem to have lost touch with anthropology back in 1950 or thereabouts. 😀
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I wish Ota Benga could have known and told them that Europeans, not Africans, have the Neanderthal gene.
Rest assured, some racist a$$hole will soon be using that as “proof” of European superiority. [roll eyes]
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But aren’t Neanderthals seen as inferior, unintelligent beings?
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This story makes me sick to my stomach. Poor guy. It’s unbelieveable that this was allowed to happen in the last century. Not in Nazi Germany but New York no less.
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Who is white… who is Arabic… who did what the worst. The capture and enslavement of another human being has unbelievably negative effects (which is putting it way too lightly) on ALL parties involved… as in the victim and families of the victim as well as the foolish perpetrator and family of the perp.
Amazing how any one would want to justify this type of behavior. The people guilty ( all who stood by and allowed it included) of this type of greed and ignorance really proved how animalistic in behavior THEY were….
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What a heart-breaking story.
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sometimes death is better than the arbitrary act of degradation that many have been subjected to through the ages. spartacus prefered to face off with the roman legion than live as a slave or gladiator who killed to entertain the bloodthirsty romans , even knowing that all odds were stacked against him, nat turner did the same centuries later. i know for certain everyone, everyman are going to be judged according to their deeds, we are not animals but humans our free will is what separates us from beasts of the fields. heaven has been prepared and hell too. just like human courts of law justice will eventualy be served for i believe in life after death, this world is a stepin stone to the world beyond. OTA BENGA MY BROTHER OF BLESSED MEMORY YOU ARE NOW WITH YOUR ANCESTORS AND YOUR MAKER SINGING BEAUTIFUL SONGS WITH THE ANGELS I KNOW FOR SURE YOU ARE IN A PLACE OF PEACE WERE THE WICKED ONE CAN NEVER REACH OR TOUCH YOU
ANYMORE AMEN PRAISES BE UNTO HIS NAME AMEN AND AMEN
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The more I think of this story the more I am reminded of the parallels with the racist movie King Kong (1933).
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davi wrote:
Once again I’m amused by the double standards in the race whiner community. Some pygmy got a bad deal a century and it’s a big deal. Present pygmies are being hunted down and eaten by their big “bruthas” in Congo and you wouldn’t hear a peep from the great crusaders against whites… oops injustice
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2933524.stm
Davi, the alleged acts of cannibalism by MLC troops were proven fake in 2004:
http://www.mail-archive.com/ugandanet@kym.net/msg15681.html
http://monuc.unmissions.org/Default.aspx?ctl=Details&tabid=1583&mid=1561&ItemID=2606
But if you used Google to find the link you posted above, you probably know it already, eh?
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But aren’t Neanderthals seen as inferior, unintelligent beings?
They’ll switch it around somehow, Mira. Count on it.
In fact, I bet we could do a google of white racist blogs and sites right now and find someone already talking about it.
The logic is this: white people are given as superior. Thus, anything that distinguishes Europeans (who are all considered to be white) from the rest of humanity must, ipso facto, contribute to that superiority.
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I agree. That white people are better than everyone else is a given. Everything else is played up, played down, lied about or twisted to support that conclusion.
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I agree. That white people are better than everyone else is a given. Everything else is played up, played down, lied about or twisted to support that conclusion.
I agree. But, whites were the ones who created “Neanderthal as a lesser being” narrative, so I don’t know how many of them would be thrilled to learn they have a Neanderthal as their ancestor (of course, it would be interesting to see someone’s reaction to that fact… as the opposite of someone’s reaction to the fact his grand grand father was black).
I believe I read something about red hair being a Neanderthal trait (that is passed to today’s humans). Some of my ancestors had red hair, so I wonder…
Ok, now that I think of it, I can find how whites could twist this Neanderthal thing. Neanderthals are seen as Europeans, and Homo Sapiens came from Africa and basically killed them all (in the first genocide). So they could go “OMG, Africans killed us and assimilated us!!!111”
… or something.
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One of the problem with this idea is that there were also African neanderthalensis…though one would never realise it.
The origins of the hominoids is already been manipulated before our very eyes.
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Thad,
“In fact, I bet we could do a google of white racist blogs and sites right now and find someone already talking about it.”
You’re right about that. I’ve seen it on a few “race realist” blogs already. Guy White did a post on it, if I recall correctly.
abagond,
I agree. That white people are better than everyone else is a given. Everything else is played up, played down, lied about or twisted to support that conclusion.”
Some of the truest words ever written.
Mira,
“Ok, now that I think of it, I can find how whites could twist this Neanderthal thing. Neanderthals are seen as Europeans, and Homo Sapiens came from Africa and basically killed them all (in the first genocide). So they could go “OMG, Africans killed us and assimilated us!!!111″
… or something.”
From what I’ve seen, racialists are using it to support the idea of race as a biological reality and debunk the “Out of Africa” theory. Whites and Asians evolved separately from Africans, hence why they are more intelligent, among other differences.
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Yes, J, but reality and biological facts (and lack thereof) never prevented people from building harmful narratives to suit their needs.
The origins of the hominoids is already been manipulated before our very eyes.
What do you mean?
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Natasha,
But how did they (those who built this Neanderthal-as-our-wonderful-ancestors story) “forget” about the fact Neanderthals are seen as lesser beings, unintelligent, unable to speak, etc? It would be interesting to see!
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^I’m sure they didn’t. But like abagond said, unsavory bits tend to be left unmentioned or downplayed in the quest to present whites as all-superior beings.
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The attempt in the past to make neanderthals the ancestors of Europeans and at the same time ignoring the African neanderthanal types.
My understanding is that all hominoids including homo sapiens sapiens have their origin in Africa and migrated at different epochs.
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My understanding is that all hominoids including homo sapiens sapiens have their origin in Africa and migrated at different epochs.
Yes, that is correct. We know this because all of the oldest human remains are found in Africa.
As for Neanderthals, I don’t know what to say here. The way I learned, they also originated in Africa. At least that’s what my professors believe.
But like abagond said, unsavory bits tend to be left unmentioned or downplayed in the quest to present whites as all-superior beings.
Of course. That’s precisely one of the reasons why myths can hardly be trusted as correct depiction of historical facts. In building this kind of narratives, there are three common mechanisms: updating history, upgrading history and excluding the bits we don’t like.
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Remember skull shape theory, Mira?
For decades, Dolocolic shaped skulls were supposed to indicate superiority because they were the most common “white” type. Bracciocolic skulls, the most common “African” type were sub-evolved.
Lo and behold, one day, someone did a really big comparative study and it was discovered that certain subsaharan African populations had the hightest indexes of Dolocolic skulls on the planet. Immediately, the explanation flip-flopped and Dolocolic skulls became synonymous with inferiority.
NEVER underestimate the flexibility of this sort of white supremacist BS.
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True, true. If nothing else, recent discoveries about Neanderthals and series of scientific and pop science articles about them (such as the one published in National Geographic) tend to go in the direction of improving the image of Neanderthals. From there there’s only one tiny step towards superiority.
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/10/neanderthals/hall-text
I mean, look at the title: “Eurasia was theirs alone for 200,000 years. Then the newcomers arrived.”
And from there, only one step towards “well, WE (whites) are Neanderthals and only mixing with us made humans as intelligent and speshul as they are today… But only those (whites) who have Neanderthals as their ancestors”.
Maybe I should stop wit this. I mean, this blog is very popular and I don’t want someone to read it and get some ideas. Still, it’s scary how easy this narrative can be constructed (I just have an ugly imagination… or maybe I know humans very well).
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Black ministers protested and in time the zoo unlocked his cage, but then people followed him, poked him, tripped him, laughed at him. When he made a bow and arrow to defend himself, the zoo threw him out.
This is a sad story. Who can blame him for trying to defend himself against those racist jerks. I would have done the same.
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Here’s one bit: we’ve known for some time that Neanderthals actually had bigger brains, on average, than Cro-Magnons.
Watch the Storm front crowd take that little tidbit and run with it. [roll eyes]
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A young and VERY intelligent young woman! Kudos to you Mira!!!
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Thanks! Though I’m not really sure if I should be happy for making a harmful narrative that easy. Then again, this sort of crap is a) never logical, b) always easy to make and c) always easy to make people believe in it.
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Aboriginal Warrior Yagan Laid To Rest After 170 years
The head of an aboriginal warrior who died resisting the British colonisation of Western Australia has been laid to rest near the city of Perth.
Yagan was killed by a settler in 1833 and his severed head sent to England where it was displayed in a museum.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia_pacific/10585852.stm
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I never understood that. How morbid.
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Poor poor man. He obviously died of a broken heart, like all these young people who commit suicide because they were bullied non-stop or not accepted for being gay or transgender or drugged and gang raped and had pics and video of the rape passed out to everyone in their school. It’s quite easy to do things to make people not want to live anymore, once you’ve seen the worst side of humanity like he did.
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