Yes, a post that does not follow its own advice:
Since I am so bad at talking to White Americans I will, for the most part, simply list the opposite of what I do:
- Smile.
- Master small talk. I am terrible at this. Big time.
- Do not be yourself. You know, like what they seem to do.
- Keep your feelings to yourself. Mine make them uncomfortable.
- Do not point out the wrong in what they say – unless they will blame you for it later (“Why didn’t you tell me!?” )
- Never make it clear that you have more money or intelligence. They will hate you for it.
- Use the same kind of English as Ellen DeGeneres: accent, grammar, word choice, rhythm, volume, all of it, as close as you can get it. Because people who do not talk right have something wrong with them. Even Jane Austen words are bad: you might be suspected of having too much intelligence!
- Do not talk about books – unless they are Approved Reading Material: mysteries, romances, bestsellers and anything for work or school. Anything else hide and say nothing about it to them.
- Avoid saying much about yourself. Anything out of the ordinary, good or bad, will be used as an excuse to look down on you. Because different is bad.
- Do not bring up any subject they do not bring up. Most of them seem to have narrow interests.
- Follow sports.
- Avoid politics.
- Avoid race as much as you can. There is no way you can win. At best it will make them feel uncomfortable, at worst they will hate you for it or think you are being unreasonable since they, like, Control Reality.
- Shut out your own experience from your mind: imagine that you are in some cloud with them where the only thing that matters, the only thing that is true, is what comes out of their mouths.
- Do not express your ideas as your own – they will be instantly discounted. Instead say something general like, “I heard somewhere that…”
Always remember:
- They smile before they stab you in the back.
- If you are different they will make you feel like there is something wrong with you. There is nothing wrong with you – except the regular stuff, like not exercising enough.
- Do not take what they say to heart unless you know for a fact you screwed up (missed a deadline, broke a promise, robbed a bank, etc).
* This is not based on the latest studies because there are no latest studies. It is based utterly on my own experience – you know, Personal Anecdotes that are not Statistically Significant – most of it in or near New York.
Some of it applies to Americans of any race – like the thing about intelligence – but all of it applies best to those who grew up in White American middle-class suburbia. It does not seem to apply well to West Indians or South Asians.
See also:
Another clever and on-point post, Abagond.
Now, watch and wait for the number of white folks that will come on here and agree with everything you post about talking to them. Lol
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LOL – let the drama begin. *shakes head* Talk about being on point….
Excellent work again, mate.
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LOL X1000
I grew up in a predom. white suburb, this is so true. I fail epically at the small talk, that is why I usually kept to myself…
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#2 – yeah…I can’t do that. I’ve got too much actual shit to say.
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LMAO.
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Well I guess its just best for me to stay away from white people cause Im not good at kissing ass.
1.They smile before they stab you in the back.
This is true especially at work. White people smile in your face then complain or lie on you to your boss.
This is the post is truthful and brilliant.
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Wow. Fifteen ways to say “I’m Paranoid.”
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Hmmmm… This is a good list, but may I add it’s true (in my experience) in general situations, not just when a non-white person talks to whites. This is how whites talk. To each other. Especially: #2, 3 and 4. #2 seems to be the key. If you screw that up, you fail at conversations.
Now, I always assumed ALL people are like this.
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Well, not all people, but all groups of people.
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This is not based on the latest studies because there are no latest studies. It is based utterly on my own experience – you know, Personal Anecdotes that are not Statistically Significant – most of it in or near New York.
I love it when they do this! Resort to quoting statistics, charts or other references, when you have made it clear that you are speaking anecdotally! You have to continually state this throughout the conversation. For some reason, they do-not understand this. And no, it is not due to paranoia. They ask you a question or questions and you answer them. My take; IF YOU DON’T LIKE THE ANSWERS YOU RECIEVE, THEN TOO BAD!
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Except those South Asians who grew up in white middle-class suburbia (and where most well-off South Asians live).
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I love the talking like Ellen DeGeneres part….
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Having gone through your list, reminds me that hasn’t times changed ha ha??
“…But the colonial officials trained for their task in British public schools were not only paternalistc, aloof, and class- biased.
They were trained also to be unadaptable, unreceptive to
criticsm and unimaginative in the face of changing circumstances…It was the ‘native’ who had to adapt.
Black people in the British colonies were indeed expected to ‘adapt’ cheerfully to the very unpleasent and sometimes quite bizzarre behaviour on the part of the white rulers.
E.K. Lumley, a British district oficer in Tanzania for many years relates in his memoirs how he boxed the ears of a black man who wouldn’t take his hat off: ‘I was only then informed that he was the African priest of the local Lutheran mission’.
A district commissioner [d.c.] in the same territory:
‘was in the habit of going for a long walk every evening, wearing a hat. When, towards sunset he decided to make his way home, we would hang his hat on a convenient tree and proceed on home hatless. The first African who passed that way after him and saw the hat was expected to bring it to the d.c.’s house and hand it to his servants, even if he was going in the opposite direction with a long journey ahead of him.
If he ignored the hat he would be haunted by the fear that d.c’s intelligence system would catch up with him…
Peter Fryer
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…definitly dont talk to me about books….
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e said:
“Except those South Asians who grew up in white middle-class suburbia (and where most well-off South Asians live).”
Right. Part of how I arrived at this list was, strangely enough, by comparing the South Asians I know and where they grew up: white suburbia, Queens, the West Indies, South Asia itself and even TCK (Americans who grow up overseas). The richer or more White American (in the cultural sense) they are, the worse they get – but in my experience never as bad as the whites themselves (except for this one woman I knew…).
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That’s a pretty broad generalization there abagond, come to Appalachia, 9 times out of 10 they will tell you what’s on there mind. Number 8 “Do not talk about books” we don’t read books in these here parts. LOL Sounds like you spend to much time around uppity New Yorker types, country folk are quite different they will tell how they feel regardless if you want to hear it or not. Ankhesen should know what I’m talking about.
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Country folk can be harder to deal with on soooo many different levels though. Because of there anti suburb/middle class/establishment attitude. And as far as the accent goes you would be hard pressed to find someone who talks like Ellen Degeneres, half the time you can’t even understand people because they have such a strong holler accent.
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What’s so special about the way Ellen Degeneres speaks? Maybe I’m not remembering her voice correctly since I haven’t watched her show in a while, but I think her way of speaking could be considered “neutral.” Or is that the point?
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Right.
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Ok, now I really have to ask: is this post written as ”
How to talk to white people if you are non-white”, or how to talk to white people, period?
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Abagond, oh, okay, just checking. There does seem to be something about ebonics they are particularly averse to. And they tend to think that all/most black people speak like that, and if not they consider it noteworthy. Very weird. I’m ashamed to admit my SO did say when we first met, “You don’t sound like the average black person.” Which of course sparked a heated debate on what the average black person sounds like.
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Ó Dochartaigh said:
“That’s a pretty broad generalization there abagond, come to Appalachia, 9 times out of 10 they will tell you what’s on there mind. “
Read the post. I say flat out that it “applies best to those who grew up in White American middle-class suburbia”. So for example a Korean American who grew up in such a place would be closer to this than anyone from Appalachia, which from what I understand is not mainly middle-class and suburban.
I put “white people” in the title to keep it from becoming ungainly. And, ONCE AGAIN, according to the rules of the English language there is no invisible ALL before “white people”. So the asterisk, strictly speaking, was not necessary – except that I know from tiresome experience how “white people” read “white people”.
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4. Keep your feelings to yourself. Mine make them uncomfortable.
Little advice. There’s a time and a place for discussing feelings. Maybe you miss the cues of when and where.
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talking to a white person is like talking to a brick wall. and they are so damn fake with each other. even husbands and wives talk to each other like they are strangers. not one drop of realness. white women are afraid of their husbands and it shows when white couples talk to each other. and speaking of white women, what the hell is going on with that fake high pitched voice? if i had to hear that on an everyday basis i would lose my damn mind.
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Never make it clear that you have more money or intelligence. They will hate you for it.
Hate? Ridiculous. Envy? Envy is universal.
However, I cannot recall the last time I heard or read about a white guy putting a gun to black guy’s head while he was withdrawing bales of money from his bloated bank account.
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8. Do not talk about books – unless they are Approved Reading Material: mysteries, romances, bestsellers and anything for work or school. Anything else hide and say nothing about it to them.
Oh yeah. Devotion to literature is all over the black world. Just go over to the Hue-Man Bookstore in Harlem next door to the Magic Johnson Movie Theater and see for yourself how popular Jane Austen is.
The store is filling up with Thug Lit and may well lack a copy of Ralph Elllison’s Invisible Man.
I’m thinking Magic Johnson Inc. holds the lease and gives the store a very special and very deep discount on the rent.
Meanwhile, aside from Barnes & Noble, the chief outlets for quality writing in NY City are generally found on the sidewalks of Greenwich Village and Upper West Side where booksellers put their inventory on card tables for sales to passersby.
Most of the sidewalk vendors are black and most of the buyers are white.
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So this post is less about white people and more about conformity, and Christian middle America, which happens to be mostly white. Conformity and group mentality is the cause for most of this, not skin color. I can’t wait till you do a post on that.
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13. Avoid race as much as you can. There is no way you can win. At best it will make them feel uncomfortable, at worst they will hate you for it or think you are being unreasonable since they, like, Control Reality.
No way you can win? Win what?
Your preceding statement is an admission that a black alternate reality is a pervasive illusion.
This reminds me of a conversation I had with a group of blacks about Michael Jackson. They said he was not a pedophile and had never molested any of the kids who slept in his bed with him.
They said the fact that Jackson paid $20 million to one boy was the proof of his innocence. As if paying off a victim is evidence the defendant didn’t do the crime.
I was also informed the case was a conspiracy designed by a white father to take money from Jackson because he was black. So, yeah, it’s tough for blacks to “win” that race-based argument.
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Somehow, I find most of this really impossible to believe. Maybe New York really is as bad as they say. Or is this a clever little April Fools? *glances at date*
I think #4 is the only one I could say is true, at least by my own experience. There tends to be a time and a place for discussing feelings – of course, I know people who feel awkward discussing them at any point. I’d include myself in that – but it doesn’t mean that they don’t want to listen.
On the other hand? If people don’t like what you do, what you say, who you are? Sod the buggers and find new people. No use crying over spilt milk.
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“I put “white people” in the title to keep it from becoming ungainly. And, ONCE AGAIN, according to the rules of the English language there is no invisible ALL before “white people”.
So guess you should have labeled it “How to talk to middle class Christians”, regardless of color middle class Christians are more uppity about this sort of behavior. I have a feeling that this has more to do with a persons skin color with you, and less about their class.
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Long time no post but I have to say that this MUST be pretty tongue-in-cheek. I didn’t know all white people were the same. LOL. How do you talk to black folks? South Asians? East Asians? Polynesian?
There’s truth to some of the tips but to be honest I feel that can be applied to Americans as a whole.
The U.S. is a very anti-intellectual, conformist society and it can be argued that it is based on the white majority’s customs and thought patterns.
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There’s truth to some of the tips but to be honest I feel that can be applied to Americans as a whole.
The U.S. is a very anti-intellectual, conformist society and it can be argued that it is based on the white majority’s customs and thought patterns.
I was going to say just this, but with a much more long-winded comment… thanks for sparing me. With the exception of maybe the last three, this list coud apply to most people I know. Not being smiley and loathing small talk have been my downfalls with people of all races, as well as liking to read and discuss literature rather than TV.
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Well, the only people I know are white and non-American, but if you don’t know how to do #2, you fail. Simple as that.
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Ó Dochartaigh,
That’s a pretty broad generalization there abagond, come to Appalachia, 9 times out of 10 they will tell you what’s on there mind.
Well, now. Look who went and rediscovered his roots.
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I’m not sure if this post is serious or just sarcastic humor along the lines of the Stuff White People Like blog.
Whites, like blacks are too varied in personality to make such generalizations. I know blacks who can’t talk about anything more than hiphop and sitcoms, and I know whites who’ve traveled all over the world and can sit down and tell me endless stories. And vice versa. What’s up with the over-generalizations?
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Ankhesen
Hey, now. I never lost my roots. I am proud of who I am, and my people. I’m just not proud of the racism, and ignorance in this area. It is the strong will, determination and anti establishment attitude that I love about the Appalachian people. I was just pointing out that that list does not compare to most of the white people I know. 😉
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Ó Dochartaigh,
Mm-hm. You never did tell me which state. Where I’m at, it’s “wild and wonderful”.
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Nobody said it was a walk in the park.
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Ankesen
I live on the Allegheny Plateau near the Ohio river. Most beautiful place on earth. You?
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Wild and wonderful “wess ginni” West Virginia. Being black in this area is “nothin ta shake a stick at” LOL. Did you grow up around here?
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How to talk to white people if you are non-white”, or how to talk to white people, period?
Mira, I wondered which Abagond meant too. To me I think it applies much more to non-whites. The pressure to conform is less severe if you are already white.
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Bay Area Guy said:
“I’ve come to accept the fact that we whites will always be in the wrong unless we accede to every black demand. Therefore, I and other whites might as well not even try. Racial equality and reconciliation is a Sisyphean task.”
Right, it is too hard, so why even try? Because in America, short of war or genocide, black people are not going anywhere nor are whites. The good white people who founded America made it a country of many races.
When whites think they cannot win for losing, like what you are saying, it comes from seeing everything in a “white is right” kind of way. The better thing to do is to try to put yourself in other people’s shoes, try to see it from their point of view long enough so you can understand it, to LISTEN to what they ARE SAYING not to what you THINK THEY ARE SAYING.
Many white commenters are so stuck on their own point of view that they do not even understand what I am saying in the post, as clear as I try to be. But without understanding nothing else good is possible.
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Many white commenters are so stuck on their own point of view that they do not even understand what I am saying in the post, as clear as I try to be. But without understanding nothing else good is possible.
People should ask questions. It seems they rarely do. I do hope enough commenters here and elsewhere are open for discussion and honest communication. And if I learned something, is that people should be open for discussion and give benefit of the doubt. I hope there are at least some people like that here. Even admitting you have prejudices is a good step forward.
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Gotta get the rich people, the people at the top to listen, to stop the racism in the system.
This is a good idea but I don’t think it would work. Why? Most of the people at the top are white, and they do not have much interest in ending the racism. Some of them are violent racists, but there are plenty of the so-called “colour blind racists” who don’t even realize there is something that needs to be changed. Racism is over, isn’t it?
Only when white people realize racism hurts THEM, only then they would change. But how to make them see racism hurts them is another issue, because in most of the cases, it doesn’t.
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I think Ellen DeGeneres is a good example to used. I am sure at onetime that she had a southern accent, having grown up in New Orleans and Atlanta.
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no_slapppz,
Why do you visit Black blogs if Blacks are so illiterate?
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With regard to:
“Then again, the difference between Person A and Person B is that Person B always seem to listen (read) what other people write. Person A often grab any sentence or line she likes or dislikes to poin [out such and such].
Funnily enough I have found that to be common here and not with regard to the above commentator only.
More often than not what someone says is either taken out of context, or in isolation so ‘essence’ of the point is ‘lost’.
Then again it is a ‘skill’ to properly, read and understand what someone is saying, irrespective of whether one agree or disagree with the position. In the academic world this constitutes a subject area of study known as ‘critical thinking’
Though this all goes out of the window if the aim is merely to ‘score points’. Then all of the above would make ‘perfect sense’ (taking words out of context etc)
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Wow, the reactions on this post are very interesting: from dead-on to tongue-in-cheek to aren’t you making this up? And it does not follow as clear of a black/white divide like most of my posts.
As to how white or American or middle-class all this is, I cannot say. I suspect that it is a mix that comes together most noticeably in white middle-class Americans.
I would say the stuff early in the list are middle-class things (small talk, hiding feelings, being phoney, etc), the stuff in the middle is American (anti-intellectualism) and the stuff towards the bottom is driven by racism (race and politics as things to avoid talking about with white people, etc).
In my younger days I read two books that nailed this stuff for me:
Sinclair Lewis: Main Street (1920)
Gloria Naylor: Linden Hills (1985)
The first is set in 1920 in small-town white America somewhere in the Midwest. The second is set in the 1980s in black middle-class suburban America. And to me, the way I read them at least, BOTH were making fun of this mindset that I am talking about: every one should be the same, no one should think for himself, expressing your feelings is bad, etc, etc.
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Funnily enough I have found that to be common here and not with regard to the above commentator only.
Well, true, true. You’re right. That’s why it’s best to always comment on the entire posts commenters wrote, instead of one sentence.
I know you and I had our disagreements based on miscomunication, so I think it’s the best to always ask if something other poster wrote is unclear to you.
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Moving it on slightly ha ha…Maybe this should be ‘How To Talk To Other Bloggers’ ha ha ha
I agree when in doubt, one should seek ‘clarification, but it can be difficult in this type of conversation on a chatboard and hence the importance of ‘critical thinking’.
There are a number of other ‘diversionary tactics’ apart from taking words out of context. There is the constant ‘shouting’ as well as ‘talking at’ people. The subtle innuendos of insults and/or belittling, battling over semantics and so on and so forth
but very rarely is it about directly answering an argument with a counter-argument in a logical and coherent way.
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Well, one must understand Internet communication is different than the real-life, eye to eye one. Some people are just not good with written words, while others have problems when talking to other people in real life (this is me).
But when I said taking words out of context, I meant on taking, for example, your line:
“I agree when in doubt, one should seek ‘clarification”.
And saying: “Black people always seek clarification because we all know they are unable to understand things properly”.
The problem here is not whether the comment was incorrect or racist, but it makes any discussion/communication impossible.
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abagond, you wrote:
The better thing to do is to try to put yourself in other people’s shoes, try to see it from their point of view long enough so you can understand it, to LISTEN to what they ARE SAYING not to what you THINK THEY ARE SAYING.
Now that’s an idea for YOU.
There is a standing problem. It boils down to the black delusion that equality should exist in every dimension of life simply because you are demanding life to be that way.
Whites have plenty of inputs for feeling and believing there’s something a little wrong with the black view.
Whites see black achievement where it exists. What’s visible? Sports and Entertainment. Meanwhile, a top figure in car design at Chrysler is black.
But blacks seem to have no knowledge of blacks who have actually gotten somewhere in the business world. Ken Chenault, for example. Or Reginald Lewis, former CEO of Beatrice the orange juice company.
There’s no black Bill Gates; no black Warren Buffett. But there are a number of famous white software innovators and a number of successful, famous white investment analysts.
Race makes no difference in those two pursuits, which means another blocking factor is at work. What is it?
Instead of simply getting down to business and doing some seriously influential creative work, blacks seem more devoted to claiming something happened a couple of thousand years ago in Egypt that sucked the knowledge out of their heads and left them benighted for the following millennia.
I’ve heard excuses, but that one takes the cake.
The subtext of this craziness is the seemingly unshakable belief among blacks that people are a hostage of their ancient history and until the white people of the present renounce every belief they have about themselves, blacks will remain in intellectual bondage.
As I’ve said, if blacks were to create ONE benevolent, prosperous nation, a democratic, capitalist nation that emulates the leading nations of the world, the existence of that nation would have a profound effect on the way whites view blacks.
But as long as almost every African nation is a cesspool of disease, violence and backwardness, whites have no reason to think blacks are capable of operating successfully under black rule.
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I am not totally sure I understand but yes to
“The problem here is not whether the comment was incorrect or racist, but it makes any discussion/communication impossible”.
I don’t think I can find it, so this is from memory…
When in a conversation. There are 6 speakers
1. The person who INTENDS to speak (here type)
2. The person who CONVEYS (here type) what he intends to say in his/her mind – this is NOT always possible to convey what you have in your internal mind, externally
3. The recipient who hears/sees the word – but not necessarily the intent if the thought is not articulated accurately
4. The recipient who then has to INTERPRET those words
5. The recipient who then has to interpret those words but on a different level, NOT only as he understands it. Rather as the speaker intends the point to be conveyed.
Then the process begins again
6. The recipient now becomes the speaker, who intends to speak and has to go through the processes of 1-5
Why is this becoming like an English Language class? ha ha
However, the point is nevertheless instructive methinks
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Abagond, your list made me sad, because it is exactly what I experienced as one of two token blacks in a large white office setting for many years. All of it, every last one. The other black was so traumatized that he quit, gave up Christianity, and sought out an African woman to marry. This was remarkable because at one time he had studied to become a priest and was what white folks would call well-assimilated.
It also made me sad on another level. At least half of that list applies to the experience women endure with men on a social level, and a little too often, a dating level.
While hard on blacks not in denial or in an unusually fortunate situation, black women get a double dose of this oppression that’s more unrelenting and acute than what white women go through.
I thank God for the strengths and skills we are forced to develop to cope with it.
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I remember one angry post of yours, Abagond, you used so many words that would get any of our comments into moderation. I must admit I quite liked the response.
But then again, I agree: being calm is a better way to go.
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abagond, you wrote:
In my younger days I read two books that nailed this stuff for me:
Sinclair Lewis: Main Street (1920)
Gloria Naylor: Linden Hills (1985)
Is it news to you that writers love to skewer the manners and morals of the societies in which they live?
Take it back to 19th century France. YOu seem like a literate guy who might have read a little Balzac and a little Zola.
Bring it forward to late 20th-century America and you will find Tom Wolfe rewrote one of Zola’s works and titled it Bonfire of the Vanities.
The characters in these stories commit various crimes, but the crimes are more often social crimes or great deceits rather than actual murder, though there was a critical murder in Balzac’s Therese Raquin.
I recall reading Richard Wright’s Native Son and shaking my head at Wright’s idiotic naivete about communism and how he wore his beliefs like a new suit. Of course some white writers were equally, if not more idiotic about the great experiment conducted out of Moscow.
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Kit:
Thanks for your comment! I mostly experience this stuff at work, but now that my kids go to a white school they are starting to bring home the same rotten attitudes (they also have more of a surfer dude accent now). That is part of what led me to write this post. The other part is something Peanut said in the Roissy thread, which gets to your point about how this applies to dating:
“It just seem like no matter how hard I try to explain stuff, it doesn’t get through. Like there is a wall up or something and I’m finding this to be true in 90% of the interaction w/ white guys I have. there might be 2 who try to understand what I’m talking about, the rest seem to have issues either admitting that there is benefit to being white in this day and age or just avoid/ignore issues of race altogether.”
In fact, this post started out as “Free dating advice”, all tongue-in-cheek about how to talk to white people, but it wound up being this more bitter piece.
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Kit:
That much of it applies to women and doubly so to black women points to some kind of power relationship underlying the whole thing.
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No Slappz said:
“Oh yeah. Devotion to literature is all over the black world. Just go over to the Hue-Man Bookstore in Harlem next door to the Magic Johnson Movie Theater and see for yourself how popular Jane Austen is.”
Do you have any idea how utterly brainless that comment is?
It assumes:
1. Black people do not take the subway.
2. Black people do not have library cards.
Harlem is so amazingly well-connected to lower Manhattan – where all the good bookstores are – that in the 1980s I thought it would be all white by now. Also some of the branches of the New York Public Library are excellent – in addition to the main library on 42nd Street.
Harlem is not only one of the best places IN THE WORLD to live if you love books, it has also produced great writers. Which is more than I can say for most of America, unfortunately.
Even worse:
You missed what I said in the post (surprise, surprise): people HIDE what they are reading. I do it, my sister does it – because of the dumb-ass ignorant jerks who set the tone of American society. And YOU would know that if you were a serious reader. Which makes you a fine one to look down your nose at the reading habits of others.
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I don’t get it: why is so embarrassing to read? I understand in the high school: kids will make fun of you, calling you a nerd (or whatever), but later in life? Isn’t that a plus? In my part of the world most of the people want to present themselves as serious readers… even if they’re not (so they start claiming Paulo Coelho (or even DaVinci Code) as a serious literature).
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Hey, don’t f$ck with Pauno Coelho.
The man is srs bznz. 😀
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I don’t know. It sounds more of a middle-class/social status thing to me. The neighborhood that I grew up in,(mainly upper-middle class black) the people acted “EXCALTY” like the white people you’re talking about.There was little to no difference between and the typical WASP.Maybe the main reason why blacks and whites don’t like each is because they’re so much alike.
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“# Do not talk about books – unless they are Approved Reading Material: mysteries, romances, bestsellers and anything for work or school. Anything else hide and say nothing about it to them.”
Don’t forget Revolutionary War and Civil War narratives, as well as biographies of the Founding Fathers and Lincoln 😉
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Typical white middle class reading choices may be somewhat limited, but something is better than nothing. Large segments of the population don’t read at all.
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abagond, you wrote:
Do you have any idea how utterly brainless that comment is?
No. In fact, I think your response is more support for my view. You wrote:
It assumes:
1. Black people do not take the subway.
2. Black people do not have library cards.
I see. If I walk on 125th Street –east to west — I pass a Pathmark supermarket, cell phone stores, sneaker stores, fast-food places, electronics stores, Starbucks, churches, clothing stores, bodegas, one thrift store, the Apollo (which Percy Sutton nearly destroyed), government offices, a school and finally, the Cotton Club.
Along the way there is NOT ONE BOOKSTORE.
You claim Harlem’s readers get their literature in other parts of town because it’s so easy to reach bookstores by subway. If the subways are so efficient, why are there any stores on 125th St?
As for using the library, well, I go to the Brooklyn library. Usually the main branch. It’s a popular place. As for the racial balance of book borrowers — I really cannot say. But one thing is certain. The library’s Internet-linked computers are extremely popular with blacks.
Back to 125th St:
The sidewalk booksellers on 125th St peddle a combination of Thug Lit, Zane and racist diatribes probably composed by members of the Nation of Islam.
As for Thug Lit, I credit the authors who sometimes sit at the sidewalk sites trying to move their own books. But the pricing is wrong. Others are part of Prison Lit programs, programs where inmates contribute their writing for publication. Seems to me I saw work by a female inmate serving time for murder. Her work was, I believe, on someone’s card table on 125th.
Zane is Zane, and I guess Zane has built a readership. That’s the game.
But the racist stuff, the lunatic nonsense that blames whites for every problem in black life, well, it seems to be the the relative equivalent of porn.
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No Slappz:
Get a grip. If there are no stores on 125th that sells beds, say, does that mean everyone in Harlem sleeps on the floor? The people in Harlem live in New York City. So 125th Street is, at best, a local market, like Canal Street is to Chinatown.
By your reasoning we can assume that no one in Harlem ever drank at Starbucks until one opened on 125th Street. Is that even believable? Harlem is not an island, it is part of a huge city, so give it up already.
Do you get why I do not think you are a serious commenter? My 11-year-old son has these very same kind of arguments with me, but to him it is an elaborate joke – like the why game or that Calvin & Hobbes cartoon where the father says everything used to be in black and white – but you seem to believe what you are saying.
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Calvin & Hobbes: Black & White photos explained
Here is the cartoon:
Here is the dialogue:
Calvin: Dad, how come old photographs are always black and white? Didn’t they have color film back then?
Calvin’s dad: Sure they did, in fact, those old photographs ARE in color. It’s just the WORLD was black and white then.
Calvin: Really?
Calvin’s dad: Yep. The world didn’t turn color until sometime in the 1930s, and it was pretty grainy color for a while, too.
Calvin: That’s really weird.
Calvin’s dad: Well, truth is stranger than fiction.
Calvin: But then why are old PAINTINGS in color?! If the world was black and white, wouldn’t artists have painted it that way?
Calvin’s dad: Not necessarily. A lot of great artists were insane.
Calvin: But… but how could they have painted in color anyway? Wouldn’t their paints have been shades of gray back then?
Calvin’s dad: Of course, but they turned colors like everything else did in the 30’s.
Calvin: So why didn’t old black and white photos turn color too?
Calvin’s dad: Because they were color pictures of black and white, remember?
Later…
Calvin: The world is a complicated place, Hobbes.
Hobbes: Whenever it seems that way, I take a nap in a tree and wait for dinner.
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Abagond,
Why is, ahem, “it” still here?
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abagond,
You mentioned beds. There is a Sleepy’s on 125th, but no bookstore.
The point, lost on you apparently, is that most of 125th Street is filled with chain stores, either local, regional or national. Chain stores believe in bringing the product to the buyers. But not one chain bookstore operates in Harlem. Just Hue-Man, and that is a one-store operation.
About the only independent store on 125th St is the lone thrift store just west of Lex. But even though thrift stores have a well deserved reputation as places to buy good books cheap, that thrift store stopped selling books. No buyers.
If Barnes & Noble could sell profitably in Harlem, it would be there. It’s not.
Maybe bookstore managements look at the school population in the area and base decisions on what they find. Whatever. Maybe they check the results of standardized reading tests.
You seem to have a vision problem that disables you and stops you from recognizing what is NOT there. A fill-in-the-blank problem.
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my social skills are so horrible that i basically just avoid talking to people all together.
my mom likes to remind me that we blacks have this look on our face that makes whites think we are mean or in a bad mood, when we are not. although in my case, i am always in a bad mood so it doesn’t really matter.
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I’m not sure why no_slappz is antagonised so considering some of his points arent intellectually obscure…but i must say these over-generalizations of white people are incredibly cringe-worthy. particularly number 3.
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bay area guy- I think you are overreacting. Abagond didnt say any of that above. Pointing out white racism is not “hating whites”. I think abagond wants a even playing field for all races ( I dont think that’s possible). Let’s just be honest whites are priveleged because they are white, blacks are disadvantaged because they are black latinos are etc.
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i used to joke around that when people had problems with you, there was the white way and then the black way.
the black way was to tell you to your face they don’t like you or to do something mean to you in front of everyone.
the white way was to talk about you behind your back.
then you had the black and white way which was to talk crap about you but not to your face, as if you weren’t in the room. i guess with that route it was to anger you because you couldn’t do anything about it as it could be denied or worse, you could get yelled at for easedropping when technically they wanted you to hear.
i don’t know if what i said makes any sense….
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Ankhesen said:
“Abagond,
Why is, ahem, “it” still here?”
Long story short: he does not break my comment policy. He is a troll but a civil one.
In January I ran a poll to see how people feel:
“Should commenter No Slappz be banned?
Yes, he is just a troll. 66% (66 votes)
No, that would not be fair. 34% (34 votes)”
More here:
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*eavesdropping.
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With regard to Bay Guy Area comments.
I thought long and hard and before posting this – Perhaps you may want to remove it Abagond, but my
mind goes back to ‘karma’…lets hope it does not come back on me.
Anyhow my mind goes back to the Fanon posts , the abuse hurled, and some other things too.
As I said this board is a very crazy place…
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therighttoparty said:
“I’m not sure why no_slappz is antagonised so considering some of his points arent intellectually obscure…but i must say these over-generalizations of white people are incredibly cringe-worthy. particularly number 3.”
1. No Slappz is intellectually dishonest. His powers of reasoning, as shown on this very thread, are those of a child.
2. For the 40-gazillionth time the title of this post is “How to talk to white people*”. Follow the damn asterisk. It is not “How to talk to ALL white people”. CLEARLY I am making GENERAL statements about a race of people who ARE NOT ROBOTS. Though, SAD TO SAY, they are not quite as individualistic as they imagine. I think this post makes clear why. At least to those who have ears to hear.
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Bay Area Guy, let me try this:
If I don’t talk about race, then I’m living in denial and ignorance. If I do talk about race, but don’t talk about it in the manner a black person wants me to talk about it, then I’m being condescending, bigoted, disingenuous, and backstabbing.
Um, no. Not really. But what white people tend to do many times in discussions about race is immediately go on the defense, and try to explain away events as having nothing to do with race. It is like they put their fingers in their ears and say “Lalala. Black people always place the race card. Lalala.” No one wants to believe you are racist, but when you (using the general you) do this, it comes off as indeed, very bigoted and condescending. The only thing blacks and other minorities would like is for whites to acknowledge their arguments; recognize that racism and white supremacy still play very large roles in our everyday lives, and is not just a thing of the past. They don’t want them to feel guilty or give them a hand out. Just try to see how they might have arrived at their conclusions and try to see the world from a different perspective.
I’ve given up, for there is no way a white person like me can do right in the minds of blacks or other equally angry non-whites. Obviously, whites cannot interact with non-whites without oppressing or psychologically harming them. The only possible solution to racial problems is for whites to completely separate themselves from blacks. At least that way, the harm they can do to black individuals will be minimized.
No, that’s not the solution. The solution is for whites (and blacks), to realize the unconscious and sometimes conscious ways they allow racism and bigotry to persist in this nation. Realize it and try to change their behavior. Ignoring the problem won’t make it go away.
You constantly claim that you do not hate whites and that you are just imploring us to listen. You’re just “telling it like it is.” I understand, you don’t really hate us! You simply think we’re these deluded, ignorant, backstabbing, narcissistic, oppressive control freaks. How nice.
Whites are not all of those things, but many are ignorant of the true experiences of non-whites in this country, and are content to live in their bubble of ignorance. And, yes, this sometimes leads to delusions of the worst kind and narcissism. Narcissism because they view their perspective and way of being as the correct and right way, and all others abnormal. But again, simply stopping and listening, rather than immediately dismissing would help tremendously to cure this ignorance, delusion, and narcissism.
Speaking of that, based on what I’ve read here and elsewhere, whites and blacks can simply not live together in harmony. Therefore, I actually do believe that voluntary separation is the only viable solution. The very fact that we keep having these conversations is evidence that attempts at integration and other forms of interracial interaction are doomed to failure.
Hmmm, I live with my SO quite happily. By all measures we are the picture perfect couple. So I doubt the above very much. And we do have conversations about race very, very often. Yet the one thing he does not do is deny my experience or try to defend “whites” when there is nothing to defend (okay, sometimes he does, but I’ll give it some time. 🙂 ). I acknowledge when he has a point and he does the same with me.
Oh well, I’ve come to accept the fact that we whites will always be in the wrong unless we accede to every black demand. Therefore, I and other whites might as well not even try. Racial equality and reconciliation is a Sisyphean task.
If everyone does their part, it does not have to be so hard of a task. You’re not as helpless as you believe. Just imagine if each person took steps to change today, how different the world would be in a short amount of time.
Bay Area Guy, I believe you are sincere and somewhat well-meaning, but you tend to fall into the white way of thinking that blacks won’t be satisfied until every white person’s head is on a platter. Not so. Just admitting that their are ills that plague this country and doing whatever you can to alleviate that, is not giving up everything. In fact, you would be helping the nation more than you think.
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“This is true especially at work. White people smile in your face then complain or lie on you to your boss.”
Unfortnuately, I have noticed this as well. When you deal with most black people and they have a problem with you, you definately know it. You know where they stand. But in the workplace, I’ve seen this numerous times. But it is not just against blacks, some do it to their own race.
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I think this is the very nature of the ‘world of work’
which is very ‘competitive’ and there is ‘much to be gained’ by being disingenuous etc.
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Bay Area Guy,
Again, after I admit all of my delusions and acknowledge that every nice thing I have comes at the expense of oppressed non-whites, what do you want from me? Somehow, I think that simply trying to “do my part” to alleviate ills won’t be enough.
…And you would be wrong. The sad thing is there are many, many, many white people who think just like you and that’s exactly why things will not change.
I’m sure that reparations demands and various other demands will follow.
This just sounds silly and a bit paranoid.
Too many blacks also act as if they can somehow read the minds of white people. In fact, they know more about us than we know about ourselves! They have all clearly been blessed with these psychic abilities that allow them to accurately assess all white people and detect their hidden racism.
I don’t believe blacks know everything about white people, but they tend to know more about white people than vice versa. Just based on my experience. There are plenty of reasons for this.
I defend whites because so many people (not necessarily abagond) think that we’re uniquely pathological and deluded. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being white!
Lol. Really? Because many whites tend to think there is something wrong with being black. I guess being on this blog gives whites a feel of what it is like to be on the other side. Indeed, it is not pleasant and it causes you to wonder if you are living in an alternate universe.
On another note, blacks act as if white power makes all whites deluded when it comes to race.
Well, power corrupts and all that jazz.
But, seriously, maybe I didn’t get this through clearly. Due to the dynamics of this country, many whites are in a position where they have minimal contact with non-whites and even if they are in contact, they do not have to acknowledge their existence or consider it to be of minimal importance. This does leads to delusions, because they are cut off from an entire realm of experience. Why you are finding this hard to understand, I don’t know.
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@Natasha W
Yes, with that mindset, it’s no wonder things are the way they still are.
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To Abagond:
So where are you meeting these White people..? It sounds like it’s mostly at work. It doesn’t sound like you are talking about close personal friends.
In my opinion, as others have said much of what you are writing about White people could apply to Americans of any race.
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Bay Area Guy:
I never said half the things you put in my mouth. You make my position more extreme than it is and then paint me as unreasonable. But when you do that who is being unreasonable?
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Bay Area Guy:
You quote me as saying:
“Avoid race as much as you can. There is no way you can win. At best it will make them feel uncomfortable, at worst they will hate you for it or think you are being unreasonable since they, like, Control Reality.”
That seems to be what is going on right now. You have been painting me as unreasonable at length.
But what do I know about white people?
I just know them mainly from work.
I just know them from the names they used to call me and now call my sons.
I just know them from the gunshots I used to hear all the time because the police were not terribly interested in protecting blacks and Latinos.
I just know them from the police who stop me in a white neighbourhood and ask for ID and ask me where I live. Or how the same cop car keeps passing me.
I just know them from the bad schools that I am twisting my life to keep my sons out of.
I just know them from real estate agents who show me black neighbourhoods and avoid white ones two blocks down which, for some strange reason, have no houses that “fit my criteria”.
I just know them from the racist thinking they pour forth on my blog.
And on and on.
But what do I know? I am no mind reader.
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Bay Area Guy:
I did not say that ALL whites are smiling backstabbers.
I did not say that ALL whites try to paint me as unreasonable when talking about race.
I did not say that ALL whites have narrow interests.
Uncle Milton, for example, is guilty of none of that as far as I know. He seems fair, broad-minded and straight-up. So, no, not ALL whites are like that.
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Abagond is just race baiting. I don’t think any white people should be offended by this post. Abagond post these outrageous topics so he can generate alot of hits for his blog. If you notice, none of Abagonds posts about non-race topics get any hits.
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May I ask a personal question here? Do you (you = anyone who cares to answer) have any real friends of different races? I mean, real friends, not just acquaintances, neighborhoods, collegues. Real friends. I am not trying to make a “I have a black friend” argument- I am honestly interested.
If you do have at least one such friend- do you talk about these issues with him/her? How do they react? Or did you find communication impossible?
And yes, I would like Abagond to answer, if nobody else.
If you find these questions too personal I won’t push it.
PS-Of course, another question would be: how would you (all) feel if your child starts dating/wants to marry a person of a different race.
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Bay Area Guy,
Really? I don’t find such a sentiment silly or paranoid, especially considering that many blacks make such demands.
Yes, really. It is silly and paranoid. We’re a little past the point of reparations; it would become too tricky to figure out who is owed what and why. Some blacks may say that, but I think the vast majority would be satisfied with similar school systems, housing, and treatment that whites are afforded. Which shouldn’t be much from a country that was founded on, and still prides itself on, equality.
In other words, you’re no better than us. Indeed, a world ruled by blacks certainly wouldn’t be pleasant for whites (of course, I know it’s very unrealistic that blacks will rule any time soon). Therefore, why should I go out of my way to empower and help blacks and various other non-whites? Why should I aid someone who’s hostile towards me and bears me ill will?
No, you missed the point. That was meant to be more tongue-in-cheek than anything else. But it was meant to make you see how such feelings might arise, no matter how odd they seem to you. I don’t think blacks would make life very difficult for whites if blacks ran the country. That is a bit of a white delusion. And not because blacks are some benevolent creatures that do no harm, but because they know what it’s like to be in that position.
So what, 60% of the population is delusional just because they don’t know the realities of 13% of the population (I’m not including other non-whites, since we’re mainly talking about blacks here)?
Yes, many are, but not all. Not for the reason above, but because they believe their reality is the only one: that whatever they do not perceive, does not exist. That is practically the definition of delusion.
If you want to convince whites to get on board with anti-racism, then you need to adopt new strategies.
Me, adopt new strategies? I assume you mean the general “you.” I’m not trying to convince anyone of anything.
And no, I’m not “renting a negro” in order to prove my point.
Oh, yes. Yes, you are. And I’m not buying it, no sir. Should I quote Tim Wise or Peggy McIntosh and tell you how correct they are?
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May I ask a personal question here? Do you (you = anyone who cares to answer) have any real friends of different races?
I do. Plenty. I grew up in a suburb where my family was one of two black family and everyone else was white, but I went to a school with mostly East Asians. The city itself is more minority-majority; half the people were minorities –black and non-black Latinos mainly, and the other half were white. But it wasn’t segregated for the most part, only on the outskirts where I lived.
If you do have at least one such friend- do you talk about these issues with him/her? How do they react? Or did you find communication impossible?
Yes, I do. Asians and Hispanics mostly agree with my sentiments. Whites, eh, it depends on their level of experience with these kind of issues. If they’ve never dealt with it before they go into that dismissal, denial, and avoid mode. But eventually they come around when they see with their own eyes how these things happen.
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*families
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Mira & Uncle Milton:
I have friends, not just acquaintances, who are black, white, East Asian and South Asian. It is a zillion times easier to talk about race with those who are NOT white. A zillion. Point two. (But easiest with blacks.)
My best WHITE friend I have known for years. She is very liberal and intellectual and one of the least racist white people I know. She has even lived in black neighbourhoods (“beyond civilization” her mother called it) – and got robbed and called names (but not raped, RR). Most of her boyfriends are white though she has had one black boyfriend and two Asian American ones.
But despite all that, race is still bad ground to be on with her. She knows I am not making this stuff up, that I am not just whining, which is huge, and she will LISTEN to you, but even with her there are limits. If you push it too far she becomes offended, uncomfortable or “tired” of the subject.
She still has a white pride that can be wounded. She can still say some pretty racist things like, “Why do black women have to dress like prostitutes?”
One time she was talking about a friend of mine. It was pure Sapphire stereotype all the way. I got angry and said, “You do know that that is a stereotype, right?” She was profoundly offended (because I was calling her a racist in so many words) and would not speak to me for a week. It upset her so much that her mother called me (yes) and asked me how I could be so mean. The “feelings of white people”.
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Wow, abagond, I didn’t know your wife was white. You always compared her to black actresses so I assumed she was black. That means almost about half of us commenters have a white SO.
But if we’re including our better halves, my SO is similar to abagond’s wife. He is more pliable and diplomatic though, he’ll just get to the point where he just agrees with whatever I say without offering any commentary in the hopes that I’ll stop. And yes, he still says racist things like “You don’t think that most black men are a bit anti-intellectual?”
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That comment was about my best white friend, not about my wife (who is black). I just edited it to make it less confusing.
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Oh, I thought you said something about being separated (did you delete that version)?
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Yes, since it confused you – and so will probably confuse others.
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Nancy said:
“Abagond is just race baiting. I don’t think any white people should be offended by this post. Abagond post these outrageous topics so he can generate alot of hits for his blog. If you notice, none of Abagonds posts about non-race topics get any hits.”
If you look in the right-hand column under “Good Stuff” you can see which posts are currently getting the most hits. This post is currently number one, true, but that is more because it is new than because it is about race. You will rarely see any post about racism there that is more than two weeks old. “Thick black women”, meanwhile, has been under Good Stuff ever since I wrote it in 2007.
Talking honestly about racism is a poor way to increase hits. It turns off too many white people.
If all I cared for were hits, then I would turn up the T&A and turn down the race stuff, but I have done the opposite.
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abagond, you wrote:
people HIDE what they are reading. I do it, my sister does it – because of the dumb-ass ignorant jerks who set the tone of American society. And YOU would know that if you were a serious reader.
Your statement is truly saddening. For two reasons.
First, it is an admission that blacks criticize others for reading. Second, at the same time, by admitting that you and your sister hide the stuff you are reading, it also says you and she are desperately concerned about what others think of you. That worry shows a troubling level of insecurity.
There may have been a time when a few guys would have snickered at me if I had been reading books by Judy Blume. But the only comments I’ve heard while publicly reading books were either “Any good?”, “I liked it,” or “not my cup of tea.”
If any mocking comments were said, I missed them.
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abagond, you wrote:
I just know them from the gunshots I used to hear all the time because the police were not terribly interested in protecting blacks and Latinos.
Oh. So the police were riding through the neighborhood firing their weapons?
Or blacks were NOT calling the cops to report illegal, unlicensed handguns in the house?
Or too many people in the neighborhood were opposed to stop-and-frisk because, you know, it makes blacks look bad.
Yeah, I used to hear a lot of gunfire in Brooklyn. I was along one edge of Prospect Park in the Windsor Terrace neighborhood. But around the corner on the south side of the park, the population was almost all black and on summer nights I could hear the guns firing over there, often resulting in injury or death.
We occasionally saw police cars in our neighborhood, and never saw cops walking a beat. But the violent crime problem was very low. However, it was not zero. The few murders in the area were committed by blacks, including one about 18 months ago when the black employee at a dry-cleaner/laundry killed his asian boss, a woman.
Meanwhile, the police are a constant presence in the black neighborhood on the south side of Prospect Park, where Church Avenue runs. Surprise, surprise, crime is down, though lately it has started to rise again.
Are you claiming a police presence actually induces and increases crime?
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No Slappz said:
“There may have been a time when a few guys would have snickered at me if I had been reading books by Judy Blume. But the only comments I’ve heard while publicly reading books were either “Any good?”, “I liked it,” or “not my cup of tea.””
Well, it depends on what you read, as I said in the post. And it might also depend on your race too: in your case, for example, white people are not looking for reasons to look down on you. As your own comments show, though, SOME white people DO LOOK FOR REASONS TO LOOK DOWN ON BLACK PEOPLE.
I once had a white manager who would come to my cubicle and ridicule me in front of everyone for the stuff I read – because I did not have the presence of mind to HIDE it. One of the books, I remember, was the “Select Letters” of Augustine. He wondered how a person who reads Vibe magazine could read that too.
Another white manager was nicer: he talked to me in private. That time it was a copy of “Foreign Affairs” magazine I had left on my desk. In that case I know he had not seen it but someone else told him about it. Are you getting this?
Mostly it is just people with a screwed up look on their face saying, “Why are you reading THAAAT?” Not “Any good?” – as if they might want to read it – but “WHY” I am reading it.
One time when I stayed late after work I looked at other people’s book shelves in their cubicles. It was all, ALL, Approved Reading Material: computer books, business books, “Blink”, “The Tipping Point”, political biographies, books about nutrition and children. Each book was either a bestseller or had a sound business, family or civic motive behind it – an “excuse” for reading it. One woman had Chekhov, but because it was in Russian I doubt any White American there knew she was reading something Literary. Which is like a sin (unless the book has been made into a Hollywood film or a Broadway play, of course).
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No Slappz said:
“But around the corner on the south side of the park, the population was almost all black and on summer nights I could hear the guns firing over there, often resulting in injury or death. “
Well then you know what I am talking about.
“Are you claiming a police presence actually induces and increases crime?”
The duty of the police is to uphold law and order. Not just in white neighbourhoods but in black ones too. But the way they go about things is often arrogant and racist. Google “police brutality”. They become hated and mistrusted. When the police stop you your heart is racing a mile a minute even though you have done nothing wrong – because you know they are a law unto themselves. But in the case I am talking about it was more a matter of malign neglect: the police were doing little to crack down on the drug trade – they were more concerned about protecting the nearby white and Asian neighbourhoods from it.
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I said:
“When the police stop you your heart is racing a mile a minute even though you have done nothing wrong – because you know they are a law unto themselves.”
Until the other day I thought EVERYONE was afraid when the police stopped them. As it turns out, only 11% of whites are.
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I sure am afraid of the police, sadly. The corruption of police and profiling of blacks in the city where I grew up is well documented. I don’t think of them as allies of any sort. I wasn’t always so jaded on them though, but I’ve had family and friends brutalized and mistreated by police and received no retribution. The police just turned it on them and instead they got punished. I now know they can do whatever they want and I can’t do a thing about it. Being a police officer is like being a demigod in this country.
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I agree.
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Mira,
My current best friends are 2 Black girls and 1 Mexican girl, but most of my close childhood friends are White (in elementary and middle school we had a Gifted/Talented class that was about 50/50 White/Black). I think I’ve mentioned that my boyfriend is a Jewish White man, so obviously I wouldn’t have a problem with my kids dating/marrying someone non-White (and/or non-Christian). Interestingly, my girl friends are mostly Black, while all of my guy friends (except one) are White. I only had one Asian friend (Vietnamese, I believe, adopted by White parents) before college, because Chicago is very much divided along Black/White (with a smidge of Hispanic) lines.
As far as talking about race, my boyfriend and I have our disagreements but I feel like he “gets it” fundamentally (maybe since a big deal was made out of him being the only Jewish kid when he was young), but he’s more of a softie than I am when it comes to the whole “people can change” thing. I feel like my best friends and I have many similar beliefs and backgrounds, and we are all the “calling people out” types when they say something racist. As far as my White friends, the ones from home are way different than the ones at school, since I go to an elite, wealthy White university and many people there have never met a person of color (unless s/he was a cook/nanny/gardener).
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Ó Dochartaigh,
Wild and wonderful “wess ginni” West Virginia. Being black in this area is “nothin ta shake a stick at” LOL. Did you grow up around here?
Yup. Kanawha County mostly, but now I reside in the “River City”. Thundering Herd and all that.
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I once had a manager who would come to my cubicle and ridicule me in front of everyone for the stuff I read – because I did not have the presence of mind to HIDE it. One of the books, I remember, was the “Select Letters” of Augustine. He wondered how a person who reads Vibe magazine could read that too.
This blows my mind! What business is it of anyone what books/magazines/newspapers, one reads? Funny if you are reading Bugs Bunny comics or something equally inane, no-one remarks on it, it’s par for the course. If you are reading a bodice ripper romance and are female, that’s understandable if you’re female. Read any literary, academic, or anything of that ilk, you are looked at askance, or for the more bold, asked why are you “reading that”? My response, being a curmudgeon, “Why do you care, what bearing does it have on your reality”? In other words, sod off and mind your own business!
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Abagond, you have the patience of Job!
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Herneith:
“. If you are reading a bodice ripper romance and are female, that’s understandable if you’re female. Read any literary, academic, or anything of that ilk, you are looked at askance, or for the more bold, asked why are you “reading that”? “
Right. you got it.
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To Mira
“May I ask a personal question here? Do you (you = anyone who cares to answer) have any real friends of different races?”
“If you do have at least one such friend- do you talk about these issues with him/her? How do they react? Or did you find communication impossible?”
I have family does that count? Two cousins who are half black, a cousin who is half native American, a aunt who is black, her two children are black, and an uncle who is Native American from Peru. These sort of issues don’t come up, we all are pretty much are an open minded family. That is why I am this blog talking to POC who are angry about these sort of things. Honestly the people in my family white or black just don’t seem too concerned about this sort of stuff. Grant it, we do have a few bad apples in my family who are kind of racist, but for the sake of peace at family gatherings they are usually told just to shut up LOL.
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@Herneith:
Your post immediately reminded me of what transpired a few weeks ago. During my lunch break, I was reading a local ethnic newspaper written in English. A co-worker remarked that she was amazed the publication was in English. And I replied, “What? Are you kidding me?! So I’m supposed to be reading a newspaper in a foreign language despite the fact that English is my first and only language?” She said I didn’t have to be so touchy and she walked away. It becomes annoying when some people make assumptions.
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Ankhesen
“Yup. Kanawha County mostly, but now I reside in the “River City”. Thundering Herd and all that.”
Well how bout that, I have friends from that area. I live on the Ohio side now, but River city is no to far away. Small world!
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I said:
“I did not say that ALL whites are smiling backstabbers.
I did not say that ALL whites try to paint me as unreasonable when talking about race.
I did not say that ALL whites have narrow interests.”
Bay Area Guy said:
“Not all, but most , right?”
It depends on what it is.
I doubt MOST white people are smiling backstabbers, at least I HOPE that it is not much above 10%. But just because a white person seems friendly and all I do not assume that he LIKES me. They can seem to like you but in fact look down on you. They can seem to like you and then screw you.
MOST of them, the middle-class ones at least (the white working class seems more direct and honest, even in their hatred), are shellacked with this thick coat of FAKEY POLITENESS that you have to somehow read through. So the easiest thing to do is not trust them too much. Some are WELL MEANING, maybe even most, but some are straight-out snakes. But often it is hard to tell which is which till it is too late. So middle-class NICENESS makes it HARDER to trust them.
As to how many are uncomfortable talking about race or want to paint me as unreasonable on that subject, I will go with Peanut’s figure of 90%. If anything, that is low. It might be more like 95%.
As to how many have narrow interests, I would put it at 90% too, but that is harder to tell. Maybe it is not that bad. But given the comments I get for not being that way, I think it is at least 70%. So, yes, most White American middle-class suburban people. In my experience.
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Bay Area Guy –
First of all, you’re inner emoid is showing.
You are being whiny. You are being petulant. You are engaging in attention-seeking behaviors. You’re making the classic mistake of making a racial discussion “all about you” uh…not the focus, partner.
Secondly, men like Tim Wise and Robert Jensen aren’t self-hating…just FYI. Now, White America may not appreciate them, but that’s to be expected. I mean, White America executed John Brown. White America repeatedly robbed before finally murdering Elijah P. Lovejoy when he was only 35. They derailed the hell out of Lucretia Coffin Mott. William Lloyd Garrison was jailed, fined like hell, and just barely escaped being lynched. John Greenleaf Whittier was mobbed, stoned, driven from town, and his anti-slavery publication offices were burned to the ground. White America even burned pepper around the lecture halls of Lucy Stone (old school tear gas) to drive out her listeners. They also threw a bunch of different shit at her.
So, your attitude…*shrug*…nothing new.
You might, however, stop trying to “win”. This isn’t a game or a competition; there’s no “winning” here. This attitude of “how do I win an argument about race with POC” is counterproductive and self-serving. Racial discussion is about educating and examining the self…which you’re avoiding like the plague.
So I’m going to go into clinical mode here (’tis what I do best) and do a quick recap:
1) You came to a blog post in which a black man essentially wrote about his experience with whites – as many bloggers of color often do – and the experience was negative. Other bloggers of color then came on here and related similiar experiences with whites.
2) Naturally, you flinched; it is never comfortable to read about people who look like you doing dumb stuff (and by the way, Ó Dochartaigh, this is precisely why I love West-by-God-Virginia; WP are used to seeing WP do dumb shit and never hesitate to call them out on it *shakes head at non-Appalachian white fragility*).
3) You talk about your right to disagree. Okay – what exactly are you disagreeing with and why are you so angry about it? Abagond had a bad experience in which he was the wronged party. He is upset, as is his right. He has expressed this, as is his right. Other people who experience the same thing with whites are upset, as is their right. They too express this, as is their right. They’re the wronged parties…so why are you angry?
4) Is it possible you’re angry at/disappointed in white people? This is a volatile issue for some white people, and expectedly so. In a country where their dysfunction is hidden as much as possible, and the media caters to salvaging their image at every turn, and for entertainment, they’re constantly being told not to seriously think about their historical and modern reality, feeling even slightly disappointed or angry with fellow whites brings about cognitive dissonance of epic proportions.
Fashion tip from Moi: if you came onto a blog post like this to disprove that white people are like this…demonstrating the exact behaviors he described (specifically #4, #5, #9, and #13) is probably not the smartest route…just FYI.
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LMAO. Thanks, Ankhesen. You are priceless.
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Ankhesen, you rock! 😀
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Ankhesen
I never thought I would be saying this on this blog, but score one for the Hillbilly’s. LOL White people can be far too fragile sometimes. At least Hilljack’s know there dysfunctional and are proud of it.
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Look at it this way. Were your parents ‘self-hating’ when they told you to eat your vegetables? Told you to do your chores? Told you to clean your room? Censored your speech in regards to swearing, saying inappropriate things? Taught you proper social comportment, etc? Look upon this blog as something similar! It’s for your own good!
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Sorry, but I’m not buying that. Traditionally, no group truly wants equality (like that’s even possible), but special privileges and power of their own. This usually comes in the form of autonomy, but it can manifest itself in other benefits.
…Okay, I see this is futile. Well, nice talking to you!
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Thank you for your answers, I really appreciate it. 🙂
The reason I asked is the fact I can sense problems in communication here, so I was curious about real life situations. I wanted to know if you have true friends of different races and how you deal the issue of racism, race, etc. I mean, it’s not like I was using you for a scientific study or something, but I did notice race is a really difficult to talk about among whites and non-whites, so I was interested to know if you are able to have true, close friends with people of different races. I mean, this issue is important. It’s not like: I like X actor and you dislike it, no big deal. Yet, it seems that whites and non whites have very different (if not, opposite) ideas of what’s going on when it comes to race- and it is a very serious issue.
So maybe I’m jumping into conclusions, but your answers seem to speak about a huge problem here- whites do not want to talk about it. Simple as that. Whether they like you or not, whether they believe racism i s a problem- they don’t really want to talk about it. There’s no help for those hard core racists, but I don’t think most of the people are violent, KKK kind. So what about the rest? They feel like you are attacking them personally. Why do whites avoid talking about this subject so much?
I have a lot of experience with different problems (ethnic and religious hate/issues among Balkan people), and I can see some similarities with racism, but one thing is different: people don’t have problems talking (arguing) about it.
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abagond, youwrote:
Well, it depends on what you read, as I said in the post. And it might also depend on your race too: in your case, for example, white people are not looking for reasons to look down on you.
As if I would care. You seem overwhelmed by what you believe other people think of you. Obviously you want your boss to see you as an honest dependable employee. But other people with no power over your life? Who cares? You, it seems.
You wrote:
I once had a white manager who would come to my cubicle and ridicule me in front of everyone for the stuff I read – because I did not have the presence of mind to HIDE it. One of the books, I remember, was the “Select Letters” of Augustine.
This anecdote seems to be part of the black alternate reality problem. Why? Because it involves you reading personal stuff on the job. I understand. I’ve been called out for the same thing. See it for what it is. But your next comment is the real giveaway.
He wondered how a person who reads Vibe magazine could read that too.
He wondered? So you were reading his mind? That is one of the central factors in the black alternate reality. This belief you can read people’s minds. Big mistake.
Another white manager was nicer: he talked to me in private. That time it was a copy of “Foreign Affairs” magazine I had left on my desk.
Again, like it or not, the subtext of this little talking-to was really about you reading non-work stuff during work hours.
In that case I know he had not seen it but someone else told him about it. Are you getting this?
Am I getting this? Yeah. I get it. The boss was trying to tell you, subtly, that during office hours it helps to play a little game that involves looking like you are thinking about work even when you are not. Wake up.
In this way I am a big offender. There was a time when my office was a library of used books — fiction — I’d bought from guys selling them off card tables near my midtown Manhattan office. It was noticed, and commented on, negatively, by superiors.
Mostly it is just people with a screwed up look on their face saying, “Why are you reading THAAAT?”… but “WHY” I am reading it.
I see. Now you can read minds at the instant you make contact with another person. As though your reading material were the consuming object of their thoughts at that moment. Please.
Based on your following commentary, it seems you are aware of how the game is played, but at your own risk, you refuse to play along.
One time when I stayed late after work I looked at other people’s book shelves in their cubicles. It was all, ALL, Approved Reading Material: computer books, business books, “Blink”, “The Tipping Point”, political biographies, books about nutrition and children. Each book was either a bestseller or had a sound business, family or civic motive behind it – an “excuse” for reading it.
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Tim Wise and Al Sharpton share the same pea pod. But among whites, I am certain Sharpton is far better known.
I’ve never seen Wise interviewed on TV or by print reporters in any venue above barely circulating local rag newspapers.
The fact that Wise has developed a fan base among blacks is, in itself, a sign that too many blacks will put faith in anyone who stands up in public and critcizes whites, no matter how nonsensical the critic.
It seems to me Wise more-or-less said Bush ordered Hurricane Katrina to hit New Orleans. But more troubling was the nonsense he spewed about personal and government risk and responsibility regarding floods.
Wise is yet another wing ding who knows zero about economics and financial reality. Including flood insurance.
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To Mira
I think it is easier for POC to talk about it because they are the victim, white people don’t like to talk about for a few reasons:
1. They are racist and they don’t want other people to know they are racist.
2. They don’t want to be blamed for something there ancestors have done even if they are not racist themselves, and have no control over being born with majority privilege.
3. They don’t want to look like a bad person for being proud of being white, white pride is usually associated with racism and the KKK in America.
4. No matter what they say or do they are usually labeled a racist or a “Drapto” as Ankhesen puts it, so it is better to just not talk about it.
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Basically I think most white people feel like that if I don’t say anything then no one can label me racist regardless if they are racist or not. Because being called a racist in America has a Demonizing quality to it.
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^I think that’s true. But it comes down to not wanting to examine their views to see if they actually are racist or believing that racism must necessarily involve hate.
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I think that sums it up perfectly. For example, if I encounter a random black person who’s obviously in pain, I’m not going to ask him about his troubles or try to understand his situation. Yeah, I may appear to be narcissistic and unwilling to show empathy, but at least I won’t open myself up to accusations of dishonesty, hypocrisy, condescension, and backstabbing.
…Pardon? Why would a black person accuse a white person of all those things simply for asking them if they are feeling okay? Instead of being grateful that someone noticed? Do you think black people hate white people [that much]?
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^Well, it’s a pity you have such an attitude. I don’t distrust whites in general. If a white person asked me “What’s wrong?” when I looked troubled, I wouldn’t be suspicious of them. That’s paranoia on a whole new level. People are not guilty until proven innocent.
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ankhesen wrote:
it is never comfortable to read about people who look like you doing dumb stuff
You must live on another planet. Industries exist to exploit the idiocy of humans — Because People Love It.
Race is not a factor.
The National Enquirer finished off John Edwards political career by exposing his lies.
Governor Mark Sanford got caught with his Argentinian babe, which cost him everything — because the public eats up this stuff. Love story or lunacy? You decide.
Governor Eliot Spitzer was caught boinking hookers. Hilarious. No one misses him, but New York is now stuck with David Patterson, who is simply incompetent.
The comedy business is mainly about highlighting human idiocy. Celebrity magazines thrive on catching well known people in embarrassing situations.
You really need a course in everyday reality. Americans love reading or seeing news about people doing dumb stuff. When the supply of dumbness in the news runs low, we go to the movies, TV and buy books to get more of it. Our appetite for stories of humiliation is insatiable.
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Bay Area Guy is painting blacks as way more extreme than they are so that he does not have to take anything they say seriously. It is part of his Not Listening.
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Our appetite for stories of humiliation is insatiable
that sounds like a S&M convention! Anywho, I love the National Enquirer, good reading material whilst on the toilet! The Star is a close second.
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That question was answered already.
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@Ó Dochartaigh
1. They are racist and they don’t want other people to know they are racist.
I thought that kind of racist people are proud of being racist and don’t want to hide it.
2. They don’t want to be blamed for something there ancestors have done even if they are not racist themselves, and have no control over being born with majority privilege.
How does “not talking about it” prevents that? Or, how does “talking about it” make people having control over majority privilege. Privilege and past are there, talk about them or not. So in any case, it’s better to talk.
3. They don’t want to look like a bad person for being proud of being white, white pride is usually associated with racism and the KKK in America.
So, it is assumed a white person must be proud of being white?
4. No matter what they say or do they are usually labeled a racist or a “Drapto” as Ankhesen puts it, so it is better to just not talk about it.
I must say I disagree. “Sweep under the rug” technique never helps. If there’s something about me that people around find annoying or bad, I’d like to know. If I don’t understand, I’d like to talk about it and see what you’re talking about. Especially if you’re my friend. That is one of the reasons I asked whether people have true friends of different races. You should be able to talk about this stuff with your friends, if not with collegues or random people.
All in all, “not talking about it” doesn’t seem like a good solution.
Basically I think most white people feel like that if I don’t say anything then no one can label me racist regardless if they are racist or not. Because being called a racist in America has a Demonizing quality to it.
So, in order to avoid being called racist, people won’t talk about the problem, they won’t even recognize it? Do you think it’s fair? Is “I avoided to be called racist!” really that important, is it really that much of a goal? It does look like many people care more about not being called racist, instead of caring not to be racist.
In the end, if nobody call you racist- does that mean you aren’t? (General you)
@Bay Area Guy
I think that sums it up perfectly. For example, if I encounter a random black person who’s obviously in pain, I’m not going to ask him about his troubles or try to understand his situation.
?!?
Let me get this straight: You would refuse to help a human being who is obviously in pain because he or she is black?!?
Yeah, I may appear to be narcissistic and unwilling to show empathy
No… Actually, you appear to be racist. (In given situation).
, but at least I won’t open myself up to accusations of dishonesty, hypocrisy, condescension, and backstabbing.
So what? You try to help. Someone say you to STFU and mind your own business. Why is that such a bad thing? Don’t tell me you were never accused of being a hypocrite or a backstabber or anything similar, by a white person? You never had a white person completely missing a point of what you wanted to do/say?
For most whites, they’re just trying to get through their daily lives. It makes no sense to stick your neck out, especially when such actions are unwanted.
But blacks are not just some kind of… stuff that appear in whites’ world every day, but they choose not to be concerned about it, like garbage on the street or something. Those are humans. They are just trying to get through their daily lives too.
However, I don’t think anyone will disagree with me when I say that the black individual would be distrustful of the inquiring white person. Abagond and various others do not trust whites, and I in no way blame them.
Trust and respect are earned, they are not given, Bay Area Guy. You don’t assume people trust and respect you, you have to earn their trust and respect. I don’t think it’s any different for a white person. Don’t tell me whites automatically trust another white who is “trying to help”?
In any case, you tried. If someone doesn’t want to give you a chance or a benefit of the doubt, it’s their problem. At least you tried.
Therefore, when I encounter black strangers, I do not strike up conversations or try to delve into that person’s life. Don’t get me wrong. If a black individual I encounter is friendly and wants to talk to me, then I’m more than happy to have a friendly conversation. If someone wants to engage me in a dialogue, then Im not disrespectful enough to turn them down or ignore them.
So, you expect THEM to show YOU they’re friendly. You expect THEM to make the first move because, what?- it’s given that a white person is open and friendly? Why would they make a first move if they don’t know you’re interested? This is especially true in dating.
It seems you assume whites are friendly and open for conversation and friendship with blacks, while blacks are usually unfriendly and distrustful. But, is that really the case? Are whites really that ready to make friends with blacks? Don’t you think black have their doubts because, I don’t know… They tried, but “friendly white” soon turned out to be someone who is just faking politeness? All I’m saying it goes both ways, and waiting for blacks to make the first move doesn’t make sense. If you are friendly like you say, that is nice, but how would they know it? Wear “I am friendly to black people” T-shirt? Or actually making a friendly approach?
However, since I’m not going to stick my neck out, there has to be a certain level of trust and safety in order for their to be such conversations.
To be honest, I didn’t get this.
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To Mira
“It does look like many people care more about not being called racist, instead of caring not to be racist.”
Sad but true, at least for most white Americans.
“I thought that kind of racist people are proud of being racist and don’t want to hide it.”
Some are kinda like closet homosexuals I guess, a lot of people are racist, but they don’t want to be judged for it.
“How does “not talking about it” prevents that?”
It does not prevent it, but it does prevent a verbal or physical confrontation.
“So, it is assumed a white person must be proud of being white?”
Nobody must be proud, but most Americans are proud of being white, and there is nothing wrong with that, but some minorities see white pride as superiority which it is not always the case. If you can’t be proud of yourself and your culture, then what?
“I must say I disagree. “Sweep under the rug” technique never helps.”
I agree to some extent, but shutting racist people up is a good thing. It is better than them spouting hate wherever they go.
“In the end, if nobody call you racist- does that mean you aren’t?”
Racists do not care if they are racist, but many do care about how it effects their relationships with other whites who are not racist. They know it is bad, so they withhold there feelings from more open minded whites, so they are not judged as a bad person.
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Bay Area Guy,
However, all else being equal, interactions between white and black strangers are far more tense because of the race factor.
I think you’re painting a very extreme picture. I don’t think “Oh jeez, a white person” and try to avoid it, whenever I have to mingle with white people. They are people, just like me; it’s not that complicated. Race really doesn’t enter into the picture until something racially motivated is said or done.
Ó Dochartaigh,
Nobody must be proud, but most Americans are proud of being white, and there is nothing wrong with that, but some minorities see white pride as superiority which it is not always the case. If you can’t be proud of yourself and your culture, then what?
I’m interested in this idea of “white pride.” What is it based in? Certainly no one has ever expressed that they are proud to be “white” to me and I know plenty of white people on a personal level (although plenty are proud to be “Irish,” “Italian,” what have you, but those are not races).
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To Natasha W
(although plenty are proud to be “Irish,” “Italian,” what have you, but those are not races).
That is exactly what I meant, I’ve known a few people who visited Germany and said it felt like they had found there true home. I think it is pretty natural to feel a kinship to the “motherland” and people that are like you, wherever that might be.
Pride does not = hate in many white people.
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I think being proud for a white person in America starts with knowing your surname, understanding where your ancestors came from, thinking about the hardships they had to endure in the old country to get to America, and being proud of that. I think most African Americans can probably relate to this, just with less historical detail.
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@Bay Area Guy
However, all else being equal, interactions between white and black strangers are far more tense because of the race factor. There is that added historical baggage that doesn’t come into play during a conversation between two white individuals. All I know is that when it comes to interracial interactions (especially between whites and blacks), you have to tread far more carefully.
So, whites can’t be relaxed around black people, is that it? Because they are constantly scared of saying something wrong. So they chose not to say anything at all?!?
WHAT is so wrong at saying “something wrong”. If you don’t know it’s wrong, here’s a chance you learn something new. If you do know it’s wrong, and you claim you’re not racist, you won’t be thinking the “wrong” thing at all. No, seriously: saying wrong things isn’t such a horrible thing. Not trying to do anything is.
Be the change you want to see in the world…
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No harm done. I removed the first one.
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Also I think Bay Area Guy summed it up in a little more detail than I did. Usually only racists are proud of the genocide and slavery. The rest of us are just proud of our positive achievements as a race.
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So…Bay Area Guy is a teenager – nailed it!
Ohhhhh…that explains so much!!!
Oh…this is hilarious. Oh this is too hilarious. I was actually going to answer some of his questions but I’m thinking I should’t even bother. Like…this is too friggin’ hilarious.
*shakes head* Give him 5-10 more years and he’s likely to start singin’ a different tune. In the meantime…. *laughs from a deep, healthy place*
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I think being proud for a white person in America starts with knowing your surname, understanding where your ancestors came from, thinking about the hardships they had to endure in the old country to get to America, and being proud of that.
I think it’s kind of sad, actually.
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Ó Dochartaigh
That is exactly what I meant, I’ve known a few people who visited Germany and said it felt like they had found there true home. I think it is pretty natural to feel a kinship to the “motherland” and people that are like you, wherever that might be.
Pride does not = hate in many white people.
Well, I agree. And I think most black people would agree. Their is nothing wrong with being proud of the country you or your ancestors were from. They wouldn’t think that is expressing superiority. But this is not exactly “white” pride. I mean, what do the French have in common with Greeks, apart from that they would both be classified as white in the U.S.?
Bay Area Guy,
“It?” I’m guessing by it, you mean the situation, not the white person him/herself. It’s no biggie, and I don’t believe that’s what you meant, but I couldn’t help but notice that.
Yes, I meant the situation. Sorry, multitasking.
Until something racially motivated is said or done. Interesting, because whites are frequently chastised for refusing to talk about race. So, race isn’t an issue until a white person like me says or does something racially motivated. At the same time, if we don’t talk about race, then we’re accused of living in ignorance in denial.
I don’t think I specified from who the racially based comment or action had to come from. This could be from either black or white.
In any case, simply because the situation puts a spotlight on race that wasn’t there before, that doesn’t mean people should avoid cease discussion from then on. I don’t know about you, but continual growth and awareness of myself and those around me is a top priority. I don’t sweep things under the rug.
What is white pride based in? It’s based on those who founded this nation, it’s based on our institutions of higher learning unrivaled around the world, it’s based on our technological innovations, it’s based on our relatively free and prosperous societies that continue to attract immigrants of all races (even though I’m not a huge fan of immigration), and based on the fact that people of all groups can say and do things here that they could never even think of doing in most non-western nations.
That’s nice and all, but what’s that have to do with white people? American is not a synonym for white. Many non-white people helped lay the foundations of this nation and play their part in maintaining it.
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So, whites can’t be relaxed around black people, is that it? Because they are constantly scared of saying something wrong. So they chose not to say anything at all?!?
WHAT is so wrong at saying “something wrong”. If you don’t know it’s wrong, here’s a chance you learn something new. If you do know it’s wrong, and you claim you’re not racist, you won’t be thinking the “wrong” thing at all. No, seriously: saying wrong things isn’t such a horrible thing. Not trying to do anything is.
Be the change you want to see in the world…
Mira, I sometimes think you are a perfect being. If only more people thought as you did.
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Ó Dochartaigh,
You seem to be confused about “white pride”. A person who is proud to be Polish or Irish is not expressing a white pride, but an ethnic pride (race and ethnicity is not the same!!!!) Your ethnic background might be Irish and you can be proud of it, but it’s not the same as being proud to be white, because there are many whites who are not Irish (it’s not the same).
What is white pride based in? It’s based on those who founded this nation,
What nation?
it’s based on our institutions of higher learning unrivaled around the world, it’s based on our technological innovations, it’s based on our relatively free and prosperous societies that continue to attract immigrants of all races (even though I’m not a huge fan of immigration), and based on the fact that people of all groups can say and do things here that they could never even think of doing in most non-western nations.
Hmmm… If by “nation” you mean “United States of America”, by the above you’re expressing the “proud to be American”, not “proud to be white”.
Plus… I disagree with many things you wrote there, but that’s another story.
Of course, one of the frequent anti-racist critiques of white pride is that whiteness is an abominable social construct used to divide people, and that people should be proud to be Irish, Italian, Greek, Polish, etc, as opposed to white.
White as a race is a social construct. Ethnic pride, nation pride and race pride are three different things. You can’t swap ethnic pride for race or nation pride for it to be the same.
Not to mention, I don’t think any of it is a good thing. But that’s just me I guess.
One of the other reasons why I believe in white pride and pan European unity is that maybe, just maybe, this whiteness will stop different European groups from fighting one another.
No, it won’t. Trust me on this. To some groups, ethnic identity is much stronger than race identity. You can’t change that.
Whites do have a rich culture and much to be proud of, yet so many whites of my generation instead try to latch onto other cultures because they think they don’t have a culture. Sad, but true.
No, “whites” don’t have a culture. Race doesn’t equal culture. White Americans have one culture, white Russians have a different one (or am I missing something?) I bet you and I don’t have the same culture, and I bet your culture is more similar to Abagond’s, than mine- and we’re both white.
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To Thad
I think it is kind of sad to be ashamed of, or reject our ancestors accomplishments, and not be proud of them.
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Thad, why are you against ethnic pride? I think you might have a legitimate opposition to it.
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To Mira
Most African Americans have no idea what country or culture their Ancestors came from. Should they not be proud of being black?
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I agree with Thad about the ethnic pride. It’s not a good thing, but in most of the cases, people can’t avoid it.
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Bay Area Guy,
I remember my history class during my freshman year in high school. We were discussing South Africa and apartheid, and the racism of whites against blacks. This one white kid, who came across as fairly liberal, constantly referred to South African blacks as “African Americans.” WTF! Even after the teacher politely explained that blacks in AFRICA are not “African Americans,” he referred to them as “African Americans” again!
Well, that was an ignorant comment. And he was rightly corrected. I’ve made ignorant comments before and still do, and people have corrected me. And I’m glad, so I won’t make such remarks again. I don’t see what the big deal is. Unless people would rather wallow in awareness.
First of all, I’m a young adult, not a teenager. Secondly, what you’re doing amounts to nothing more than an ad hominem. So, none of my points are worthy of being addressed simply because I’m a “teenager?”
Nineteen is a teenager. And age has a lot to do with experience and, to some extent, enlightenment. But I agree; your statements should not be disregarded due to your age (now if you were a troll the likes of other commenters thatshallnotbenamed, then that’s another story). But your statements haven’t been ignored, for the most part.
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@Ó Dochartaigh
Most African Americans have no idea what country or culture their Ancestors came from. Should they not be proud of being black?
I thought we were talking about white pride, not black pride?
In any case, the term “pride” is a fishy one here. It is actually about building one’s identity. Human’s can’t live without building some sorts of identities. Each human does this for him/herself, and of course, in time, identities can change.
So, identities are personal and individual. However, they help human socialize because we are all part of a group. of different groups exactly. We live in a society and it shapes us. It shapes the way we see ourselves.
Humans have a need to belong. Their identities are build on this need. “I belong to a group” in person’s mind becomes “I am”. I belong to a group: white race = I am white. And so on. But categorizing yourself is only the first step, because the group wants to be homogeneous in order to be distinctive from the others. So, there are rules. “I am black” doesn’t simply mean you’re, well, black (which is a social construct), but also all those unspoken (and spoken) rules of being black. If you don’t homogenize right, you fail (for example, you are “acting white”). Etc.
The point is, there are various groups and in order to build your identity, you become member of those groups. But choosing a group to identify with, and building your identity is not absolute, nor it’s natural. It’s a construct. In other words, it’s not real.
Now, we don’t consciously choose many of our identities- most of them (gender, race, ethnic) comes with our culture- we are socialized into those groups and we see them as natural. But in order to be strong, like I said, he group needs to be homogenized, and the set of rules is established- the set of rules to make a distinction between “us” and “them”. This is where “pride” comes in. This is where all the tales of heroic past come in, all the stories of great accomplishments, historical figures, etc. Not to mention they all serve as myths.
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To Mira
I believe black people have gone through way to much sh!t, to not be proud of there race. If you and Thad believe they should not be proud of being black and proud of the hardships they have overcome, then maybe it is just an American thing.
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To Mira
“I thought we were talking about white pride, not black pride?”
It does not matter, and you never really answered my question, a very lengthy responds but no real answer.
The question still stands, most African Americans have no idea what country or culture their Ancestors came from. Should they not be proud of being black? I believe they have gone through too much Sh@!%t to not be proud, they have a right to be proud, they have overcome a lot.
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@Ó Dochartaigh
I believe black people have gone through way to much sh!t, to not be proud of there race.
One thing: I know I will sound like a horrible c… , but could you please write their instead of there? It confuses me.
Now, ok. I UNDERSTAND race/ethnic/nation/religious/whatever pride. I understand it. But personally, I don’t think you can be proud of something it’s not your accomplishment. Being born white or black is not anyone’s accomplishment; it’s not something you chose. I can be proud of my writing skills, for example, but not of my small hands. It’s the wrong word here. It’s all about the identity, and identities are not a natural thing, they are built.
If you and Thad believe they should not be proud of being black and proud of the hardships they have overcome, then maybe it is just an American thing.
Who are “they”? Define “they” and you’ll see the problem. Or, let me rephrase: do you think I could be proud of the hardships black people overcome during the slave days? And what about the accomplishments of Celts, can I be proud of that? Please, answer.
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Bay Area Guy,
I’m not referring solely to the United States, but successful European nations as well.
So you would like white Americans to join European whites (that they probably have not the slightest clue about) in a catch-all white unity simply because they are from economically developed countries? Bogus.
Also, you can hate them for being bigoted slavers all you want, but this nation’s founding fathers were white men.
I don’t “hate” anyone. Fostering hate is like carrying around a gangrene-infected arm.
And the term “founding fathers” means nothing in terms of who actually built this country and made it what it was. It was not one group or group of people.
Many groups have contributed to this nation through their labor and military service, and then expanded freedoms for all Americans through the Civil Rights movement, but whites laid the initial foundation for this nation.
I’m sorry, but I find this disturbing. So you think that the efforts of people who played vital roles in developing the U.S. were just side “contributions?” That the U.S. did not need them: all they needed were the white men to clear out all the Native Americans to make the U.S. what it is today?
Also, up until 1965, this nation had an immigration policy designed to keep this nation white, and only over the past few decades has the United States changed from being an over 80% white nation to a multiracial nation around 60% white. Therefore, this nation has historically been a predominantly white nation.
This comment is even more appalling, given the (un)subtle bigotry pervasive in it.
Historically, this country was predominantly Native American. 300 some years is but a blip in the timeline of history.
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To Mira
LOL There, Their, and They’re are my Achilles heel, so to speak when it come to writing. I’ll try pay closer attention.
They are African slaves brought to America.
“I could be proud of the hardships black people overcome during the slave days? And what about the accomplishments of Celts, can I be proud of that? Please, answer.”
No I do not think you could have the same pride a black person or a Celt could have for their people. As far as being proud of something that is not your accomplishment. I am the product of that accomplishment that is why I am proud.
So you don’t think black people should be proud of being black?
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@Bay Area Guy
I’m not referring solely to the United States, but successful European nations as well.
What? “Unsuccessful” European/white nations dont’ have anything to be proud of? And what is “successful” anyway?
Ó Dochartaigh
It does not matter, and you never really answered my question, a very lengthy responds but no real answer.
That’s because it’s impossible to answer shortly. Maybe Thad could do that better.
The question still stands, most African Americans have no idea what country or culture their Ancestors came from. Should they not be proud of being black?
I was just saying that being proud of being black/white is not the same thing as being proud of being Russian/Jamaican.
I believe they have gone through too much Sh@!%t to not be proud, they have a right to be proud, they have overcome a lot.
So, if they didn’t, they would not have any right to be proud?
I am not asking this to ridicule you or black people. Of course I know what happened to blacks and of course I know being black makes important part of any black person’s identity. I am asking so I could help you see how the concept of “ethnic pride” doesn’t make sense in a way people usually think it does.
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Mira,
What? “Unsuccessful” European/white nations dont’ have anything to be proud of? And what is “successful” anyway?
I knew you would chime in with that! But I think Bay Area Guy assumes “European” is synonymous with “successful.”
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I think black pride is vastly different from white pride. In the case of black pride, it is a makeshift ethnic pride. Since many whites can trace their ancestry, there is no need for a “white” pride. Unless in reaction to black pride. But I was more interested in the issue of opposition to ethnic pride. I think it may have negative consequences, but I’m not sure it’s entirely bad.
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Black Americans and white Americans are not symmetrical categories and so it does matter which is being discussed. Black pride in the face of white persecution is justifiable and most black pride, minus afrocentrism, is pride in the achievements of Black Americans who constitute a distinct ethnic group from the world black race at large. Ask yourself, what are the achievements common to all the different ethnic groups that are classed as white in the US that Blacks do not have equal right to be proud of? I’m a third-gen eastern european jew – if I’m not white in America I don’t know what white is. What does America have that I *as a white person* should be proud of that a black person should not?
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To Mira
I realize your view point, that all people are one race, so on and so forth, but you have 3 options: 1. Be proud of who you are. 2. Be ashamed of who you are. 3. Just not care. I feel that being proud of who you are and your race, gives you a stronger constitution in life, and can help you feel better about yourself, regardless if your white or black, or what troubles or lack there of, your race has endured.
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Bay Area Guy: there is too much to refute in your above comment. But I’m about to head to bed, so I don’t want to begin a cascade of what constitutes what. Maybe tomorrow.
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No I do not think you could have the same pride a black person or a Celt could have for their people. As far as being proud of something that is not your accomplishment. I am the product of that accomplishment that is why I am proud.
I see. So, you don’t think I can identify myself as black, or as a Celt? Why not?
For a black, it’s an easy answer: nobody would consider me black, so let’s forget about it. Now Celts, let me see. Celts were the first people who settled my home city, they lived here, their genes are in my countrymen genes, and mine, probably. So my city, my people and I are, in a way, product of Celtic accomplishment. Can I identify myself as Celt and be proud of it?
Now back to black people. Human species originated in Africa. We are ALL Africans. Can I identify myself as African and be proud of it?
See? Identities are not absolute, and there’s no one way you can build them. Furthermore, there’s no RIGHT way.
So you don’t think black people should be proud of being black?
They were born black and that’s not their personal accomplishment. So in that sense, no, I don’t think so. However, in order to build their identity and their sense of self, many black people choose to build it around the idea of belonging to the black race. There’s nothing wrong with that. It’s the word “pride” I dislike, that’s all.
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To bingregory
See answer above.^^^^^
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With regard to:
“The question still stands, most African Americans have no idea what country or culture their Ancestors came from. Should they not be proud of being black? I believe they have gone through too much Sh@!%t to not be proud, they have a right to be proud, they have overcome a lot.”
One of the facts of life and it is a paradox, there are some who want Blacks not to have ‘pride’ in their culture etc, but who do not also advocate this for other groups (ethnic, race etc) across the world.
So in essence Blacks must remain ‘dis-armed’ whilst others people are taking pride in their cultural, ethnic, racial etc identity/history (mutatis mutandis).
This reminds me of something I was reading earlier. By way of illustration but I think the point is very germane
“Let us be clear here, ‘Against Race (ie Paul Gilroy’s book talking about ‘deconstructing’ the idea of ‘race’) is NOT a book against ALL collective identities.
There is no assault on Jewish identity, as a religious or cultural identity, nor is there an attack on French identity or Chinese identity as collective historical realities.
There is no assault on the historically constructed identity of the Hindu Indian, nor on the white British. Nor should there be any such assault.
But Gilroy, like others of this school, see the principal culprits as Afrocentrists who retain a complex love of African culture, consciousness of African ancestry, and belief in Pan Africanism”.
http://www.africawithin.com/asante/new_understanding.htm
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To roll all of Bay Area Guy’s comments into one statement: White is right. [Add Palin-style “You betcha” for emphasis if needed]
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To Mira
If your a Celt by blood, follow Celtic traditions, language, history, music etc, then by all means be proud. I was not born in Africa, and I am not black, even my DNA has changed from African to Celtic, so I can not identify as African. I am assuming neither can you.
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I realize your view point, that all people are one race,
All people are one race, but that wasn’t my point.
so on and so forth, but you have 3 options: 1. Be proud of who you are. 2. Be ashamed of who you are. 3. Just not care.
Finally, we’re getting at it. You are assuming that your identity is WHO YOU ARE. It makes sense. But, who said you have to base your identity on race, religion, ethnicity or nationality? Being, say, American is not “who you are”, unless you chose to be, unless you chose that to be your identity. Same goes for race, gender, etc.
Now. I know you can’t choose your race or sex. But. You can choose whether you want to identify with it or not. Ok, not really choose, because you are fed with the choices your culture found appropriate since you were a baby. But still, it’s not absolute or natural.
For example, I don’t identify with my race or ethnicity. I won’t say I don’t identify at all, but it’s really not particularly important to me. In case of ethnicity/nationality, I am in specific position because breaking of Yugoslavia marked the shift of identities- suddenly, you have to forget about one identity and adopt another. Most of the people, as far as I can tell, did this with great pleasure. Not me. That part of my identity was broken and I never properly built a new one. But it gives me certain freedom, so to speak, not to be blinded by some aspects of politics and propaganda (we’re heading to “why is ethnic pride bad” thing here).
I feel that being proud of who you are and your race, gives you a stronger constitution in life, and can help you feel better about yourself, regardless if your white or black, or what troubles or lack there of, your race has endured.
This is a social construct that I don’t share, but it’s just me, and it’s because a) I tend to base my identity on individual, rather than collective identities and b) I know race and ethnic traditions are constructs and not truth, so it’s hard for me to believe in them.
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If your a Celt by blood, follow Celtic traditions, language, history, music etc, then by all means be proud.
(Define Celtic traditions). But, anyway, you are claiming that your DNA, traditions and language must match your identity. Or am I missing something?
And where is Thad when I need one?
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To Mira
I understand what you are saying, to me this is like God, God is a construct, a crutch, and not reality, but it helps some people get through life. On the other God as a construct can cause a awful lot of pain and disagreement, as can race.
Mira the bottom line is, this is my crutch and I enjoy it.
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I think it is easier for POC to talk about it because they are the victim, white people don’t like to talk about for a few reasons:
1. They are racist and they don’t want other people to know they are racist.
Co-sign.
2. They don’t want to be blamed for something there ancestors have done even if they are not racist themselves, and have no control over being born with majority privilege.
Co-sign. Those with white privilege generally want to enjoy it in peace; one of the perks of the privilege is that they don’t have to “think too much” about how it came about or at whose expense. Another perk is that they can “choose” to not see that attitude as sociopathically racist.
3. They don’t want to look like a bad person for being proud of being white, white pride is usually associated with racism and the KKK in America.
Mm-mm, not white pride* – white power. HUGE difference.
4. No matter what they say or do they are usually labeled a racist or a “Drapto” as Ankhesen puts it, so it is better to just not talk about it.
*shakes head* Puttin’ words in my mouth, for I have explained right here… (if people would just bother to check more often and more thoroughly).
By the way, on Abagond’s “drapto” post, Thad asked a very important question about how people can healthily discuss race, which I only got to answer recently.
Not talking about it helps no one. Branding whites who do talk about it insightfully and intelligently as self-hating “race traitors” is equally counterproductive.
I repeat:
White America executed John Brown. White America repeatedly robbed before finally murdering Elijah P. Lovejoy when he was only 35. They derailed the hell out of Lucretia Coffin Mott. William Lloyd Garrison was jailed, fined like hell, and just barely escaped being lynched. John Greenleaf Whittier was mobbed, stoned, driven from town, and his anti-slavery publication offices were burned to the ground. White America even burned pepper around the lecture halls of Lucy Stone (old school tear gas) to drive out her listeners. They also threw a bunch of different shit at her.
What did all these people have in common? They were all white abolitionists – the “self-hating race traitors” of their day. And yet it is precisely because of their contributions that [ungrateful] white people today have the privilege of invoking the knee-jerk, “My ancestors never owned slaves” statement. They’re part of the reason UWP even have the opportunity to try to “distance” themselves from all that unpleasant “ancient” history. Had these people – along with countless other whites and non-whites – not risked their lives for their beliefs, slavery may never have even ended!!!
So to answer the question of why POC even bother with whites at all, it’s because we know they can be better – their own ancestors (you know, the ones who generally get written out of history or are portrayed in a negative light) have proven this again and again. Whether it’s advocating against killing Native Americans, or rebelling against slavery, or marching and sitting in with POC during the 1960s, there have always been white people who have shown they don’t need or want special privilege and are more than happy to create a world without it.
Some of those people died because of their beliefs – the ultimate sacrifice. The ultimate “Fuck you” to white privilege.
Whites today…don’t even have to make that big of a sacrifice and yet they have a nervous breakdown over conversation?
*cue every dead white social justice activist turning in their grave*
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*By the way, no sane POC has an “issue” with white folks being simply proud of being white – I, for one, co-sign. If it means an end to tanning salons, lip injections, and ass implants, just tell me where to send my donation. I happen to get my nails done every two weeks and some of the ish I see is ridiculous. *shakes head disdainfully*
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“On the other hand”
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Thank you Ankhesen, white pride is not white power, that is exactly my point.
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I understand what you are saying, to me this is like God, God is a construct, a crutch, and not reality, but it helps some people get through life.
And still, you were trying to point out all the bad things about religion because you, personally, are an atheist.
I am not trying to fight against identities. By all means, they are necessary. Humans can’t live without them. But if you know how they are shaped, changed, used for propaganda/politics, you can never look at pride with the same eyes. At the same time, people adopt them as something natural, as something that makes them be THEM. Which is their right as human beings, of course.
I hope everybody here understand I am not saying black people should not have their identity or something.
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To Mira
“And still, you were trying to point out all the bad things about religion because you, personally, are an atheist.”
No I pointed out that it helps as a crutch.;)
I’m just teasing there are some good things I suppose.
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If your a Celt by blood, follow Celtic traditions, language, history, music etc, then by all means be proud. I was not born in Africa, and I am not black, even my DNA has changed from African to Celtic, so I can not identify as African. I am assuming neither can you.
…Um, what?
No, your DNA did not change. All human beings, regardless of outward appearance, have 99.9 percent of the same genes (the .91 percent make for phenotypic variations). They are not different at all. Europeans, Asians, and Africans are one species, in case that needed to be clarified.
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Bay Area Guy: what? Blacks aren’t mind readers, but you are? That is not what I was going to say at all. Just relax.
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BAG, also, your above comment (long one) sounds like that of a closedminded white supremacist. Which means if they continue on that path, I’ll probably be ignoring them.
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What is white pride based in? It’s based on those who founded this nation.
Translation: Genocidal slave-owners.
it’s based on our institutions of higher learning unrivaled around the world
*Mm-mm* shakes head. Nope, not “unrivaled” in this whole wide world. And in case you haven’t noticed, USA has a tendency to “import” faculty, like it does with much of everything else.
it’s based on our technological innovations
See what I mean? Tell that to Europe and Asia.
it’s based on our relatively free and prosperous societies that continue to attract immigrants of all races (even though I’m not a huge fan of immigration), and based on the fact that people of all groups can say and do things here that they could never even think of doing in most non-western nations.
*sigh* If the immigrants are from south of our artificial border, then this is technically their country to begin with (indigenous descendants and all that complex drama).
If they are educated professionals or students, they were most likely “imported”.
If they are fleeing a nation in crisis, it is prudent to check the history of each nation to find out why. Many are simply following the trail of resources…you know, the ones stolen/ripped/sucked out of their homelands.
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No, that’s simply my response to those who claim that non-whites “built” this nation for us.
Define “us”.
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BAG,
No, that’s simply my response to those who claim that non-whites “built” this nation for us. That’s my response to those who act as if every nice thing we have comes at the expense of non-whites. That’s my response to those who say we simply got rich off the sweat and toil of others.
We did far more than that.
IOW, white supremacist. I got that point already.
Have a nice night!
Ankhesen,
If they are fleeing a nation in crisis, it is prudent to check the history of each nation to find out why. Many are simply following the trail of resources…you know, the ones stolen/ripped/sucked out of their homelands.
And that is part of the point I was going to make. What do you know? Black people are mind readers, after all.
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Natasha W
Yes my DNA did change, or rather it mutated. I have r1b1b2a1b5 + L159, this DNA is not found in Africa. It is a prominently Celtic marker. We all have mutations in our DNA, some DNA like mine is only found in north western Europe.
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And just what does one marker have to do with differentiation amongst organisms? When millions are exactly same? I thought you were a biology major? Is a cream tulip different from a pink tulip because the cream tulip has a slightly different gene for color? Or are they both tulips?
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Please, give up Bay Area Guy. Please. Because sadly, my opinion of you has progressively deterioriated over the length of this discussion. Sheesh, you could be chumming it up with the Stormfront people, and I don’t mean that as an ad hominem, but it sure seems that way. Having pride doesn’t mean denigrating other people. But maybe you just don’t know any better.
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Ó Dochartaigh said:
“most Americans are proud of being white, and there is nothing wrong with that”
I disagree. What about Americans who are not white?
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^Lol. Didn’t you get the memo, abagond? American is a synonym for white.
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Most Americans are white, they are the majority, hence the word most.
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most americans are white…??? i thought most americans were people of color
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This reminds me of the perpetual foreigner stereotype, wherein all non-white Americans are seen as foreigners. This is why they can be told “Go back to _____,” when no one tells white people to “Go back to Europe.” Even whites whose ancestors arrived in the U.S. much later than many blacks and other minorities. Seems like most/all(?) white people have this perpetual foreigner idea in their head — they are the only true Americans. Utterly ridiculous.
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To Natasha
If one Tulip only grew in Africa to suit it’s climate, and another Tulip only grew in Europe to suit it’s climate, that mutation is the key difference between the two. Without the that mutation there would be no Tulips in Europe so they are different, yet the same.
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To Natasha
Are you denying that most Americans are not white? I never said people who are not white are not American. I said most Americans are white, just stating facts.
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white racists like bay cant hide their spots for long.
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isnt that theory that people always use…
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Bay Area Guy,
I’m guessing you didn’t have a high opinion of me in the first place, so that doesn’t bother me.
I did think you were well-meaning and willing to learn, just genuinely confused by the approach taken on this blog. But I see you already came with preconceived notions of the ills and cures regarding race in the U.S., so I won’t bother.
I’m just like those Stormfronters, eh? Wow, good one, because such a label for whites like me has never been used before!
Is this supposed to be some sort of comeback?
If not giving much weight to non-white contributions to this nation, extolling the virtues of whites, and observing black hostility and distrust towards whites makes me a white supremacist, then so be it. If preferring my tribe over others (which is perfectly natural) makes me a vicious supremacist, I won’t lose any sleep over that.
Thanks for outlining just exactly what a white supremacist is. Cheers!
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Ó Dochartaigh,
If one Tulip only grew in Africa to suit it’s climate, and another Tulip only grew in Europe to suit it’s climate, that mutation is the key difference between the two. Without the that mutation there would be no Tulips in Europe so they are different, yet the same.
This doesn’t even make sense, sorry. Now, you’re just blathering.
The original point of contention was this statement made by you:
I was not born in Africa, and I am not black, even my DNA has changed from African to Celtic, so I can not identify as African. I am assuming neither can you.
So, a cream tulip is not a tulip (because indeed a cream tulip results from a *meaningless* mutation)? You fail genetics.
Are you denying that most Americans are not white? I never said people who are not white are not American. I said most Americans are white, just stating facts.
And when whites become the minority in the near future, what then? Should we then relegate whites to the status of “other” American or foreign American?
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I dont understand why people who hate the message of this blog and blacks in general post here. I would love to have this explained to me. The topic of this discussion has nothing to do with the original post.
* How do I quote a person’s comment?
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C, lol. They are gluttons for punishment, that’s why.
You can quote by adding italics or bold. To do that, see the commenting tab which appears at the top of every page.
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By the way…
it’s based on our relatively free and prosperous societies.
Notice you didn’t say “equal”:
“Dovidio, Mann and Gaertner argue that white opposition to affirmative action is rooted largely in a subtle, pervasive form of racism they call “aversive racism.” They define aversive racism as the adaptation of one’s attitude which has resulted from assimilating an egalitarian value system with racist and prejudiced beliefs. This causes an ambivalence between racial biases and a desire to be egalitarian and racially tolerant.
“Some social psychologists state that aversive racists believe they are nonprejudiced and not overtly racist. But when aversive racists are uncertain about what the right thing to do is, or if they can justify their actions on something different from race, their negative feelings toward Blacks will come out.
“When white college students were asking to rate Black and White people on a simple “good-bad” level, the students rated Whites and Black positively. When the continuum was made more subtle, Whites were more often consistently rated better than Blacks. The researchers believed that aversive racists see Blacks as not worse, but Whites as better. When white college students were asked to rate weakly qualified Black and White job candidates, both were rejected, showing no bias. When applicants had moderate qualifications, Whites were evaluated a little bit better than Blacks.
“When the candidates had strong qualifications, there was a significant difference in the ratings. The bias was even more obvious when a Black person was rated in a position superior to the White person evaluating them. The researchers postulated that the bias was even greater because the possibility of being in a subordinate position to a Black person threatened deeply held (but possibly unconscious) notions of White superiority. (Tatum, 1997)”
http://bilingualeducationmass.wordpress.com/category/modern-racism-and-its-psychosocial-effects-on-society-including-a-discussion-about-bilingual-education/
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Bay Area,
I realized that I’ve caused much anger and distress on this blog
Oh, don’t give yourself so much credit; there are plenty of your ilk that post all the time on this blog. Or do give yourself credit, seeing as you’re a white supremacist and all (I know, low blow, but it was too easy).
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To Natasha
I never said we both are not people, obviously a Tulip is a Tulip regardless of color, but you can’t call a cream Tulip a pink Tulip when it is not. That “meaningless” mutation has caused a world of difference. Small mutations are the key to evolution. Chimpanzees share 98% of our DNA but that is a pretty big difference isn’t Natasha? Or is that a “meaningless’ mutation?
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To Natasha W
“And when whites become the minority in the near future, what then? Should we then relegate whites to the status of “other” American or foreign American?”
Well since blacks are a minority and they get there own box, then when whites become a minority nothing should change. We both can be minorities with check boxes.
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Ó Dochartaigh
I never said we both are not people.
No, your argument was not about “people,” it was about Africans and who can call themselves that.
obviously a Tulip is a Tulip regardless of color, but you can’t call a cream Tulip a pink Tulip when it is not. That “meaningless” mutation has caused a world of difference
But a cream tulip is not a tulip, by your logic.
If all people derive from Africans, but they now have a different phenotype, they can not call themselves Africans. Therefore, a cream tulip is not a tulip because it has a different phenotype.
Poor cream tulip, left all alone.
Chimpanzees share 98% of our DNA but that is a pretty big difference isn’t Natasha? Or is that a “meaningless’ mutation?
You just love red herrings, don’t you? They are your logical fallacy of choice, when your arguments are sinking quicker than sand.
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Obviously, our great universities cause great talent to pour in, not the other way around.
It’s the money they can earn.
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To Natasha
“But a cream tulip is not a tulip, by your logic.”
No a cream Tulip is not an African Tulip, they are both obviously Tulips, and I never said otherwise. I was not diverting, we are talking about mutations you think they are “meaningless” evolution says otherwise.
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No a cream Tulip is not an African Tulip
lolwhat?
In this analogy “African” and “tulip” are the same. Please don’t confuse yourself further.
I was not diverting, we are talking about mutations you think they are “meaningless” evolution says otherwise.
I’m assuming you haven’t gotten far into evolution in your biology major. Come back when you have.
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I often hear that neighborhoods/areas that are less white have less police protection and maintenance. May I posit that this may be due to tax revenue specific to a place? If the area is poorer there is probably less money going into the system to support a stronger police presence. I always thought of it more than a class problem than a race issue.
Certainly being below middle class is a vulnerable situation. That’s why even though I think about having kids, I am standing on the low edge of middle class (working 55 hours weekly) and feel it’s a scary move. I don’t pretend to understand another’s experience but wanted to offer another possible facet to the puzzle.
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To Natasha
Are you saying that 2% difference is meaningless? I’m not going to lower myself to ad hominem attacks by insulting your reasoning skills or your education like you have me, but that small mutation is the difference between computers and airplanes, and slinging poo and eating eating bananas. If you can’t agree then I guess this discussion is over.
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to Natasha
“In this analogy “African” and “tulip” are the same. Please don’t confuse yourself further.”
No in this analogy Human and Tulip is the same.
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Red herring, red herring, red herring. Why don’t you debate the original point? Is it because… you can’t?
Anyway I was planning on going to bed a while ago. But someone was wrong on the internet, and you know how that goes. Talk you later, maybe.
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To Natasha
Pink Tulip = Africa, cream Tulip = Europe, both are Tulips but both are continents, mutations and thousands of years apart.
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Ames:
Police protection is not a class thing, at least not in New York. For example, Jamaica, Queens and Harlem are both black parts of New York. The black part of Jamaica is way more middle-class than Harlem yet it has a way higher homicide rate.
Meanwhile the whites in Queens are POORER on average than are blacks. And yet white neighbourhoods are way safer. Why? Because the NYPD is racist. I know that sounds “too simple” and “inflammatory”, but it is true. The degree of their racism shocked even me. I need to do a post on it. Thanks for bringing it up.
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Ó Dochartaigh,
First of all, Europeans are white, so I don’t know why you even brought Europe up.
Because they generally can’t stand Americans and see themselves as having very little in common with you. Many of them don’t even subscribe to the notion of being “white” or “Caucausian”.
So just as Whites Americans tend to “distance” themselves from the less flattering history of themselves, Europeans tend to “distance” themselves from you. They do not consider their accomplishments and legacies as yours in any way.
The “white race” is a convenient construct created centuries by the rich elite to keep identured whites (namely the Irish, ironically) and indentured and enslaved Africans from becoming allies.
It’s one thing to be proud of pale skin and the like, but if this construct is what you’re really a fan of, welcome to supremacist land.
A now a message for fans of Noel Ignatiev:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dear Race Traitor:
I read your statement “What We Believe.” I am a sixteen-year-old white girl and so far as I know I have never done anything wrong to any person of another color. Why do you hate me simply because I have white skin? You say you want to abolish the white race. You people are as bad as the Ku Klux Klan.
A reader
Editors’ reply:
Thank you for writing. You have misunderstood our meaning. We do not hate you or anyone else for the color of her skin. What we hate is a system that confers privileges (and burdens) on people because of their color. It is not fair skin that makes people white; it is fair skin in a certain kind of society, one that attaches social importance to skin color. When we say we want to abolish the white race, we do not mean we want to exterminate people with fair skin. We mean that we want to do away with the social meaning of skin color, thereby abolishing the white race as a social category. Consider this parallel: To be against royalty does not mean wanting to kill the king. It means wanting to do away with crowns, thrones, titles, and the privileges attached to them. In our view, whiteness has a lot in common with royalty: they are both social formations that carry unearned advantages.
http://racetraitor.org/
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@ Bay Area Guy’s emo farewell speech,
There’s an unfortunate theory that white males, when they when can’t “win” something the way they want to, either change the rules of the entire situation or bow out a la sour grapes.
*nods*
Confirmation received.
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i dont know who the hell your talking about, when you speak of these white ppl you cant be yourself around, or you cant mention books around…i mean, come on.
heres a reason not to talk to someone- maybe that person generalizes every living thing about you and judges you before they even talk to you. ya, its called racism. you know, if you are so sick of white poeple, dont live in new york city. ok? im sorry but you want to moan about the weather, get outta the rain. maybe if you think being around white poeple is so bad, move to atlanta. there problem solved. the slow movemnt of races to their separate states. than all will be well, right…yea think again. hate and fear will only grow more as races become more and more separated. and YOUR part of the problwem, like it or not. when will people, both white and black realize that people are individuals and we dont all act alike. i can understand why black people would feel hesitant towards talking to\ becoming close with whites, but to make a preconsieved decision to not accept them regardless of their acceptance of yuo, now that a bunch of bulllllllllll.
abagond, maybe you could explain to me examples of what these white poeple say and have done to you when you try and speak your mind or mention books, politics, etc. and no, the internet doesnt count, cuz ppl can say anything on the internet. real life examples.. please.
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* This is not based on the latest studies because there are no latest studies. It is based utterly on my own experience – you know, Personal Anecdotes that are not Statistically Significant – most of it in or near New York.
Some of it applies to Americans of any race – like the thing about intelligence – but all of it applies best to those who grew up in White American middle-class suburbia. It does not seem to apply well to West Indians or South Asians.
I like how people either skip, read only the bold part, or skimmed and then forgot about this part altogether.
I’m beginning to see why you keep these types around, Abagond. They can quite be entertaining.
*gasp* Is this some sort of naughty secret of the blogosphere? Have you been holding out on me?
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Huh??? said:
@ Abagond: if you’re so sick of white people, don’t live in New York City. ok? I’m sorry but you want to moan about the weather, get outta the rain.
Maybe if you think being around white poeple is so bad, move to Atlanta. There, problem solved.
Menelik replied:
or go back to Africa (as the KKK advise), right? Now you see what Abagond was talking about? Share an opinion around certain types of white people and this is the response you get!
Huh??? said:
Abagond, maybe you could give examples of what white people say and have done to you when you try and speak about books, politics, etc… not the internet; real life examples… please.
Menelik replies:
Are you serious about not using communication over the internet as examples of how white people react when Abagond brings up uncomfortable issues around race?
How utterly convenient!!! I’m not sure what problem such an approach solved because you even got me going: huh?
Consider this solution, however: maybe if whites would simply go back to Europe and stop complaining about Blacks complaining about them and an even bigger problem would be solved!
Deal?
Menelik Charles
London England
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Consider this solution, however: maybe if whites would simply go back to Europe and stop complaining about Blacks complaining about them and an even bigger problem would be solved!
*cue eager nods from Native Americans*
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Ankhesen
“First of all, Europeans are white, so I don’t know why you even brought Europe up.”
I don’t recall writing this, refresh me please because I can’t find this conversation.
“It’s one thing to be proud of pale skin and the like, but if this construct is what you’re really a fan of, welcome to supremacist land.”
I’m just proud of who I am. I was thinking about this earlier, I am happy and glade I am a white man, but if I were a Black women I would probably feel the same. I can’t imagine (or even want to) being a women, but if I were, I probably couldn’t imagine being a man. LOL I feel the same about being white. That is the best I can describe it.
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Bay Area Guy:
You forgot one of the “boosts” that people of colour gave to America: THE FUCKING LAND.
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Was that too angry? Does that prove how Unreasonable I am, that there is just no talking to me?
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Menelik Charles
“Consider this solution, however: maybe if whites would simply go back to Europe and stop complaining about Blacks complaining about them and an even bigger problem would be solved!”
Yes but then what would you do with all the “ignorant” Americans you Brits love so much, if you had to deal with them everyday. First stop London England; could you imagine millions of white Americans coming to Britain all at once. You could try to bore us to death with your dry humor and sarcastic wit. LOL JK I love British people.
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@ huh???:
Learn to read. I did not say ALL white people were like that. See Ankhesen’s comment right after yours.
Menelik has it right: you are making a “Go Back to Africa” argument, one that lets white people to do whatever the hell they want to black people, even slavery (it is an old slave owner argument, in fact):
As to examples, scroll up. There are plenty – despite the fact that white people are less fake online than they are in person. As Ankhesen pointed out, Bay Area Guy is a good example:
My best white friend is an example of some of this:
I gave some examples about the book thing too:
I am not making this stuff up or merely imagining it and it is not just New York either – black people from other parts of the country have noticed the same thing. Scroll up to the earlier comments.
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Menelik Charles said:
Consider this solution, however: maybe if whites would simply go back to Europe and stop complaining about Blacks complaining about them and an even bigger problem would be solved!
Ó Dochartaigh replied:
Yes but then what would you do with all the “ignorant” Americans you Brits love so much, if you had to deal with them everyday?
Menelik replied:
complain about them, of course!
Menelik Charles
London England
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Racial pride:
1. For people of colour in America it is necessary and healthy. Without it they lay themselves wide open to internalized racism.
2. For whites it can be healthy too, but too often it turns into an excuse to put down people of other races. That is the point at which it becomes something unhealthy and wrong.
White pride has a bad name in the States because of skinheads and so on. So very few White Americans think they have it. But nearly all of them do. It is why their guard goes up so quickly when you say something bad about whites, why they take it so personally. It is why most white commenters are unwilling to admit they are wrong and feel the need to “win” or derail the argument rather than to try to understand the other side.
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Ankhesen said:
“There’s an unfortunate theory that white males, when they when can’t “win” something the way they want to, either change the rules of the entire situation or bow out a la sour grapes.”
I notice that too, though I would add that some just try to out-talk you.
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Hathor said:
“I think Ellen DeGeneres is a good example to used. I am sure at onetime that she had a southern accent, having grown up in New Orleans and Atlanta.”
Good point, which would mean that her accent is something learned on purpose to sound as Generic American as possible.
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“Racial pride:
1. For people of colour in America it is necessary and healthy. Without it they lay themselves wide open to internalized racism.
2. For whites it can be healthy too, but too often it turns into an excuse to put down people of other races. That is the point at which it becomes something unhealthy and wrong.
and so forth…”
With regard to this matter.
Sometimes we have a discussion without placing things in their historical context.
The reason that ‘pride in race’ is an issue is because White Western nations formulated the world that way, and conquered other peoples utilising colour of skin (ie race).
Now the ideas and cultural value that went with that ‘baggage’ has not just disappeared overnight it manifest itself in everyday life today.
So now we come to the crux of the issue, Black pride and/or people of colour ‘pride’ is something which HAS to be ‘asserted’ in a world where being Black etc is ‘negated’.
White people do NOT have this problem to contend with.
Theirs is a completely different ‘process’ if we are to reach the ‘mark’ where we can talk of ‘humanity’ as a reality’ and not something ‘abstract’.
So in essence I am not sure if ‘Whites’ need ‘White pride’…Perhaps rather they need a ‘humbleness of spirit’, to look at themselves ‘in the mirror’, as Michael Jackson sung ha ha.
Then again there are some Black historians who aver that when you examine European societies before their global expansion with regard to quality of life, justice, social values etc. Its no surprise that they ‘projected’ on to the rest of the world that which had been on-going in their own cultures etc for hundred of years.
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It amazes me how some commenters just don’t get it…AT ALL.
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J,
So in essence I am not sure if ‘Whites’ need ‘White pride’…Perhaps rather they need a ‘humbleness of spirit’, to look at themselves ‘in the mirror’, as Michael Jackson sung ha ha.
Lol. And I agree with the rest of this comment and I said as much on the “white pride” post.
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i agree w/ natasha, black pride and white pride really are not the same thing as far as i’m concerned. not at all.
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Ó Dochartaigh,
Pink Tulip = Africa, cream Tulip = Europe, both are Tulips but both are continents, mutations and thousands of years apart.
No, that’s not true. The only changes in both cases are superficial. The effect is neutral.
But what do you consider the “world of difference” in Africans and Europeans to be? Besides appearance and perhaps culture?
This could be interesting.
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abagond, you wrote:
Police protection is not a class thing, at least not in New York. For example, Jamaica, Queens and Harlem are both black parts of New York. The black part of Jamaica is way more middle-class than Harlem yet it has a way higher homicide rate.
For starters, you understanding of NY City demographics and crime stats is skewed.
Meanwhile the whites in Queens are POORER on average than are blacks. And yet white neighbourhoods are way safer. Why? Because the NYPD is racist.
Again, you are spewing more demographic and crime-stat nonsense. The most violent white neighborhood in NY City is safer than the least violent black neighborhood.
It seems you think because blacks in Queens purportedly have a slightly higher household income than whites that a flip-flop of crime stats should occur. News flash, over 95% of violent crime in NY City is committed by blacks and hispanics. We whites have pretty much gotten out of the business of violent crime in NY City.
Hence, wherever there are blacks there is violent crime.
Second, your understanding of Jamaica Queens is sadly limited. It is like my neighborhood. Some of it is quite nice and some of it is not. There are several apartment buildings that are home to drug dealers and petty criminals. They commit the local crimes and they are part of the neighborhood demographic. They have no money. But they are here.
Third, since you claim the higher murder rate in Jamaica Queens must be due to a lack of police presence, it appears you believe that blacks are whites are equally disposed to committing murder. But, as we both know, that is false.
Moreover, the police presence in white neighborhoods is low. Why? Because there is very little crime. Police presence is usually a deterrent to crime. But when there is almost no crime to deter, it is smarter to send the cops out to patrol the places where crime most often occurs. Guess where that is?
You should try harder to work with the facts. As I’ve said, there are no benevolent and prospering black nations. Here in NY City, even in neighborhood where the middle class includes a sizeable percentage of blacks, there is more violence touching them than nearby whites.
And you know that exactly ZERO white guys are rolling into black neighborhoods to commit violent crimes.
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abagond,
An article for your consideration. No doubt the crime stats of Harlem reflect the changing racial demographic. Still no bookstore, however.
NYT: “No Longer Majority Black, Harlem Is in Transition ”
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On white pride,
For whites it can be healthy too, but too often it turns into an excuse to put down people of other races. That is the point at which it becomes something unhealthy and wrong.
Yeah, like tanning, lip injections and ass implants.
*shakes head*
You know, whenever I go to get my nails done, I notice that the tanning lotions have really weird names like “Black Beauty”, “Dark Chocolate”, and “Brown Envy” – no lie.
*raises eyebrow*
WTF is that about?
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Tack on BlackOut, Black Storm, and Designer Skin Black Tanning to the list…check them out on Amazon.
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Ankhesen–you noticed that too? Those tanning lotions do have the oddest names.
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To Natasha W
Yesterday you questioned my education and reasoning skills, just because I disagreed with you, mutations are not are not insignificant or meaningless. Are you one of those types of people that doesn’t believe in evolution?
“But what do you consider the “world of difference” in Africans and Europeans to be? Besides appearance and perhaps culture?”
That is the difference! There are two types of Chimpanzees in Africa, Pan Panicus is the smaller more docile easy going chimp. Pan Troglodytes are the larger more aggressive chimp. They both are Chimpanzees yet a small phenotype of difference causes completely different “appearance and cultural” differences. Leading to a completely different taxonomical category. Again I ask you do you believe in evolution? If you understood evolution you would understand the differences I just explained.
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Ó,
I questioned you because you were speaking as if you’ve only been in Bio 101.
And you’re doing it again — the vast majority of mutations are meaningless. For two reasons: 1) degeneracy of the genetic code ensures that changes in codons do not usually result in changes in amino acids, which would lead to changes in proteins. 2) The overwhelming amont of genes that comprise the human genome don’t code for anything, so mutations in these regions have no effect.
Why are you talking about chimps? You do realize that those are two different species of chimps, whereas all humans are part of one species?
…Do you think the cultural differences between people are a result of genetic differences? What proof do you have of that?
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abagond
Racial pride
Excellent points abagond! Why do you think ethnic pride seems more prominent in North America though?
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@alwaysright101:
The ones doing the insults/put-downs says more about them than their target.
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To Natasha W
I realize the majority of mutations are “meaningless,” but if a mutation takes hold, given enough time, drift, and separate, they no longer are meaningless. As far as the Chimps go;. one of the determining characteristics of a species is “geographic isolation”. If the two animals were in captivity they could probably breed successfully, but the offspring would be a hybrid or a mutation. They share the same genus and most of the same DNA. If black people and white people were isolated from each other for a few hundred thousand years, the same thing would occur to us as it did the chimps. The differences between people are small at this time, but they are there.
…”Do you think the cultural differences between people are a result of genetic differences? What proof do you have of that?”
At this point cultural differences are probably not genetic, but appearance is. The reason is because there was no real isolation for a long enough period of time between the two people.
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To Natasha W
I just did some research Pan Panicus and Pan Troglodyte have already been interbred with success, so the difference between the two is very small.
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Ó,
I realize the majority of mutations are “meaningless,” but if a mutation takes hold, given enough time, drift, and separate, they no longer are meaningless.
…And just why not? If these mutations only result in surface differences and not internal differences? Unless, like I asked before, you would like to tell me what other differences exist between human beings.
one of the determining characteristics of a species is “geographic isolation”.
??? No, that’s not what defines a species.
That’s describing allopatric speciation. As you know (or not, apparently), allopatry is not the only way a species can arise.
If the two animals were in captivity they could probably breed successfully, but the offspring would be a hybrid or a mutation.
Mutation… what?
And no, they definitely could not produce offspring. Because they are separate species, they can not interbreed. If two organisms are able to produce viable offspring, they are not of different species. This is why we know the chimps aren’t the same species in the first place.
If black people and white people were isolated from each other for a few hundred thousand years, the same thing would occur to us as it did the chimps.
Very speculative. And irrelevant to what we are discussing now — that they are not separate species.
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Also, nice copy and paste job from here:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100108163002AAUO2kd
I knew that “definition” sounded fishy.
Clearly this discussion can go nowhere since you don’t actually know much about human biology.
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To Natasha
A Donkey and Horse share less genetic similarity than these Chimps. Yet when you breed a Horse with a Donkey two separate species you get a Mule. So yes they can interbreed!
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A mule is sterile, Ó. Meaning, not viable. Even someone with no background in biology knows this.
Okay, I’m done. I have better things to do than debate with someone who doesn’t even know basics.
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To Natasha W
There have been Mules that have given birth before!
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Natasha,
You know how slavery went on for centuries but White Americans only want to talk about how they ended it? (You know, single-handedly, as a unified nation who just rose up one day” and finally figured it was wrong?)
Or how all human beings have somewhere in the ballpark of 99.9% identical DNA but White Americans always leap to and strictly focus on the the meaningless .1%…which by the way, is less genetic information than what is required to determine whether or not someone will be lactose intolerant?
Or how Neo-Nazis form parties in places like Norway, Denmark, and Russia even though, as you know, the Nazis invaded and occupied (in some cases) their lands…not to mention raped and killed lots and lots of their people?
My point?
Mr. O felt the need to come on a blog which seeks to educate whites and non-whites about the negative effects of various moral disorders on POC…and turned it into an overly extensive discussion about his white pride. The catalyst for his obsession came about when Mira pointed out he was erroneously trying to tie cultural and historical [white] pride into his DNA.
Highlighting this fallacy, quite naturally, kinda freaked him out and set him on a mission.
The way you’re handling it…bellissima.
*tips hat*
PS – I’m gettin’ a bit of a young’un vibe….
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Ankhesen
I didn’t mean different as superior, just different as in different.
In no way does my argument try to belittle POC.
I’m 24 if that is a young’un then I guess I am.
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Ankhesen
Abagond agrees that pride is a positive thing, obviously it can go too far though. Mira asked a question and I answered it. I’m sorry you don’t like my answer.
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Ankhesen
Also I’m hardly freaked out because someone disagrees with me.
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Ankhesen,
You know how slavery went on for centuries but White Americans only want to talk about how they ended it? (You know, single-handedly, as a unified nation who just rose up one day” and finally figured it was wrong?)
Yup, that one is my favorite.
Or how all human beings have somewhere in the ballpark of 99.9% identical DNA but White Americans always leap to and strictly focus on the the meaningless .1%…which by the way, is less genetic information than what is required to determine whether or not someone will be lactose intolerant?
Exactly. Exactly. It’s like they purposely focus on miniscule differences and blow them out of proportion. To prove what? The “us and them” mentality is pervasive on so many levels with white Americans, ime. Not to mention they wouldn’t know what a book on genetics was if it hit them on the head. Instead they scramble and copy and paste from “yahoo! answers” in a desperate effort to construct any argument at all.
,Or how Neo-Nazis form parties in places like Norway, Denmark, and Russia even though, as you know, the Nazis invaded and occupied (in some cases) their lands…not to mention raped and killed lots and lots of their people?
Lol, but they don’t care! Whites are one race, and that race has to stick together or perish.
…Sheer craziness.
Mr. O felt the need to come on a blog which seeks to educate whites and non-whites about the negative effects of various moral disorders on POC…and turned it into an overly extensive discussion about his white pride.
And yet I still don’t get white pride.
The way you’re handling it…bellissima.
*tips hat*
Grazie!
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Ó Dochartaigh,
Ankhesen
I didn’t mean different as superior, just different as in different. In no way does my argument try to belittle POC.
You’ve displayed the consistently expressed superiority on this blog, whether you’ve “intended to” or not.
Like with Macon, Abagond often writes about the negative stuff white people do which harms POC. Your coming on here to talk about white pride in the face of this analysis belittles POC because you are in essence defending slights against them rather supplying extra insight about why white people do what they do, and how you – a white person – can get fellow white people to stop.
Fashion tip from Moi: stroke your white pride on your own blog.
Abagond agrees that pride is a positive thing, obviously it can go too far though. Mira asked a question and I answered it. I’m sorry you don’t like my answer.
1) Um…emo much?
2) No, duh – you and Bay Area Child are classic examples. You are also examples of white fragility; you hide behind your privilege to keep from having to flesh out and analyze what you do…while you do it on this very blog.
Also I’m hardly freaked out because someone disagrees with me.
Methinks you doth protest too much. Again – Abagond wrote about a negative experience which many POC can co-sign. The point of such a post, of course, was to discuss why white people behave in such a manner or if/when/how you’ve experience the same with white people.
Your response, however, was to go on obsessively about white pride.
Now…*chuckles* you can go on branding, say, men like Robert Jensen as self-haters, but at least they have some balls. They don’t have to deflect or cower or run crying to their secret supremacy stash to make themselves feel better.
Fashion tip from Moi: I dare you to discuss white dysfunction clearly and intelligently. Abagond, fire away on an unpleasant experience which you know the rest of us POC have most definitely experienced.
And everybody, Mr. I-can-do-that-but-I-don’t-wanna’s homework is to fully, openly, intelligently, honestly, and seriously discuss whatever Abagond puts before him without deflecting, denying, employing un-funny humor, or deviating in any way. I’m taking bets on whether he can do it or not, by the way – which of you think he can pull it off? Personally, I don’t think he can or will.
If he can, then I will write an honest, serious post which doesn’t focus on white dysfunction, but white virtue.
If he cannot, then Ó Dochartaigh becomes my tenth case study which, ironically, will allow me to reach my goal of turning Jensen’s Theory of White Fears into Jensen’s Law.
Lord knows he’s given me more than enough to work with.
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Ankhesen
Honestly I don’t even who know Robert Jensen is, so I can’t go on branding him a “self hater,” I never said that anyway. I “doth” protest, about abagonds broad generalizations, that is pretty much it, I agree with a lot of what he says. I already told you I know white people are dysfunctional. The last thing I have to say, is you are far to condescending, I have been pleasant with you in every conversation yet you treat me like I’m some mentally challenged person that needs studying. I am sure now I will be labeled a “emo”, “dropto”, or a “young’un.” Because I am obviously far too emotional, ignorant, or young to understand what you are saying.
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No Slappz:
When you learn to use Google we can talk. Your stereotypes are not something to base an argument on – unless you are talking to other white people.
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No Slappz:
Are you racist?
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^ Is the grass green? Is the sky blue?
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leigh204,
Bwahahahahahahahahah!!!
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Ankhesen:
This thread was much better when it was, like, about the post. Then Bay Area derailed it – which was good, though, because he proved what he was trying to disprove about the post. But then last night it got onto this racial pride and genetics thing. Though the white pride thing was partly on-topic because I think it is part of what lies behind the behaviours noted in the post. But not the genetics.
So from this point I am deleting comments about genetics that are not tied into the post. And white pride too if it does not relate to the post – like how it drives said behaviours.
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Abagond
I agree about the genetics thing, sorry for getting off topic.
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Ankhesen:
1. It was Bay Area who called Jensen and Wise self-haters.
2. Ó Dochartaigh’s age does not matter here: his statements stand or fall on their own. To think otherwise is ad hominem thinking.
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Ankhesen:
Ad hominem is not just a logical fallacy, it is against my comment policy. You make very good comments, so I would hate do delete them (as I have some of Thad’s) over one word, like “young’un”.
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Abagond,
1) Touche about Bay Area Child, qu’il repose on paix.
2) O is not a “kid” per se, but had he had been, then is his coming onto the blog of an adult of color would be an excellent example of white privilege: i.e., the “proud” white child who sees himself as more knowledgeable than an adult of color – that’s the only reason why I brought up age.
3) This may sting a little, but…*shrug* your blog, your rules – elle est votre maison. However…the post you did after this one suggests your steadily growing exasperation with commenters. You’re not being heard/read properly by “some”, and it’s clearly frustrating you. And yet…they’re still here, they’re not being redirected to your topics, but are creating and focusing on their own, and they sound the same on this blog as they did on the last one, and the one before that. “Some” are even sounding worse than before. They’ve gotten comfortable, and why wouldn’t they? They’re privileged guests, after all.
Shallow apologies and shoulder rubs notwithstanding, of course.
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Good point about the derailers.
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These privileged guests are leaving their nasty, soiled drawers around. They’ll run out there welcome soon enough. 😉
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No Slappz:
Are you racist?
Does a bear sh#t in the woods? I doubt these same people would hold forth on their views, face to face with a black person. They would be lucky to leave with their face intact!
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@Herneith:
Co-sign!
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I get this strange look from white people too. It is hard to put into words. It is kind of like they do not know what I am going to do next, like maybe I might hit them or something. I have grown so used to it that I am surprised when I do NOT get it.
The police give me this hard-eyed suspicious look. I always thought that is just how police are trained to be but now I am beginning to wonder if they do that to everyone.
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herneith, you wrote:
I doubt these same people would hold forth on their views, face to face with a black person. They would be lucky to leave with their face intact!
I would. I have.
Nevertheless, it’s your view that speaking candidly would get me a beating. Therefore, it is clear you believe blacks want to resolve issues with violence.
On the other hand, when I’m told by blacks — face-to-face — of their views on the sins of whites, it never occurs to me that beating them wouild accomplish anything.
I’ve also noticed that when these indirect challenges are thrown down by blacks, they tend to experience verbal stumbles when I respond and keep the conversation a conversation about the topic they raised, rather than letting them use the moment to hammer me as the point-man for all whites.
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abagond, you wrote:
I get this strange look from white people too. It is hard to put into words. It is kind of like they do not know what I am going to do next, like maybe I might hit them or something.
Ah. Another admission that you believe in mind-reading, but at times your system is balky.
Some advice. Always remember you have no idea what another person is thinking. For that reason you have no idea what factors are causing the facial expressions of those physically near you.
Like what happened to me yesterday. I was walking along a sidewalk in a retail area when I noticed a 30-something black guy next to me. A normal-looking person.
He started talking, to me, it seemed. “Eyes lookin’ left, eyes lookin’ right, checkin’ it out.” All said in a rather odd monotone. Not loud, but loud enough that it was easy for me to hear him.
He had come up from behind me and I had been looking left and right, so it seemed he had been watching me. He walked past me, and then because I was curious about what had happened, I picked up the pace. Periodically, he spoke, sometimes while he was beside other people, sometimes when no one was near him.
In other words, he was just walking and talking out loud — the the world. Did he want my attention? I really do not know.
You wrote:
The police give me this hard-eyed suspicious look. I always thought that is just how police are trained to be but now I am beginning to wonder if they do that to everyone.
Police training includes developing a command presence, and that means the cops understand how intimidation generally makes certain interactions go smoothly and according to procedure.
I get the feeling your actual experience with the police is limited and mostly a product of what you have heard and your imagination.
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Privilege is relative. You always want more, no matter how much you have. Unfortunately it is a HUMAN trait. Blacks will never be satisfied. They are as racist, bigoted, hateful, and privileged as they claim whites are. Abagond is a delusional, whiney, arrogant, lying, hipocritical, racist, black-privileged piece of coddled excrement. Even God fears the day the slave becomes the king, because the tyrant-king is cruel to the nth degree, i.e. Hitler, Saddam Hussein, Kim Jong-Il. I will fight people like you, Abagond, with my dying breath. You are a poisoner of children and a black hole that will never be happy. You suck the light out of the world to feed your never-satisfied fragile ego.
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What do you mean by black privilege?
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See, abagond? It’s people with thinking like this that reinforces my belief that white people are very, very afraid of blacks/POC.
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Shock horror, I agree with No Slappz, I don’t get comments like ‘you wouldn’t say that to a black person’s face’.
I mean, what does that imply exactly? A threat of violence?
I’m perfectly capable of having a calm and rational discussion about race with any racist loony without the threat of violence. That’s just feeding into a stereotype about black people that we’ll rumble at a drop of a hat..geez!
Besides most likely they’ll kick my arse first, am slightly built 😉
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abagond
“The police give me this hard-eyed suspicious look. I always thought that is just how police are trained to be but now I am beginning to wonder if they do that to everyone.”
I used to think this was over exaggerated by some people, but I have seen too many cops in action not to believe what you just said. I thinks cops do that to minorities more than whites, but I think they tend to do that with almost all men from the age of 16 to 40ish. I think most cops in America have a guilty until proven innocent attitude, especially with men in their prime.
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Ó Dochartaigh said:
“I think most cops in America have a guilty until proven innocent attitude”
I can certainly agree with that!
Thank you for your answer. It was much more helpful than the one given by No Slappz, who is too busy putting down blacks (and Muslims).
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I mean who answers a question by putting down the questioner? What kind of person does that?
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The kind of person who argues for the sake of arguing.
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And one who ask rhetorical questions like what is the point of this post??
ha ha ha
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LMAO! Just to be on the same page, we are discussing that person, right?
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With regard to the comments:
“I will fight people like you, Abagond, with my dying breath”.
It kind of reminds me of Churchill’s famous speech
“We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France,
we shall fight on the seas and oceans,
we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be,
we shall fight on the beaches,
we shall fight on the landing grounds,
we shall fight in the fields and in the streets,
we shall fight in the hills;
we shall never surrender”
Question: ‘I wonder what’s the point of this post is?’ he he
Answer: Sorry, I could not resist it ha ha ha ha
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abagond
Well No Slappz can say what he wants about police training, but I have been pulled over by cops before, told over a loud speaker to stay in my car, they waited for backup to arrive, then 3 cops with guns drawn told me to get out of my car and refused to tell me why. Then they proceeded to search my car without my consent or probable cause, they found nothing in my car, they told me to get back in my car and drive away. They never apologized for infringing on my constitutional liberties, they just told me to leave. Why they did they do this I honestly don’t know, I was driving in a bad end of town at night, and I think they were trying to make their drug bust quota for the day.
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“Right” is the word, Leigh2004
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lol! Good. I thought so. 😉
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Nevertheless, it’s your view that speaking candidly would get me a beating. Therefore, it is clear you believe blacks want to resolve issues with violence.
I was being facetious. I doubt any sane black person would stick aroound to listen to any or your diatribes. Well, maybe some would under the guise of having an ‘intellectual discussion’. That is, until they really listened to you.
I’ve also noticed that when these indirect challenges are thrown down by blacks, they tend to experience verbal stumbles when I respond and keep the conversation a conversation about the topic they raised, rather than letting them use the moment to hammer me as the point-man for all whites.
What verbal stumbles? Elucidate. Maybe it’s you tripping over your tongue. As for hammering you as a point-man for whites, what about you doing the same thing in regards to sterotyping blacks? That is if you were speaking metaphorically about the ‘hammering’ part.
Some advice. Always remember you have no idea what another person is thinking. For that reason you have no idea what factors are causing the facial expressions of those physically near you.
Yes, perhaps they all suffer from facial ticks.
I get the feeling your actual experience with the police is limited and mostly a product of what you have heard and your imagination.
Nope, studies bear this out:
The unpleasant truth is that profiling can be statistically valid, but have discriminatory real-world results, since most blacks who are stopped on suspicion will be innocent people. The more innocent people within a given group who are treated as suspect, the more all members of the group will attribute discriminatory motives on the part of the police. Paradoxically, police behavior that is rational in terms of crime-solving may increase racial stereotypes and worsen racial tensions. That is one reason why statistics alone can’t determine public policy.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1272/is_2651_128/ai_55500428/
If we really wish to end the scourge of racial profiling, we must address its roots: drug laws that encourage police to consider members of broad groups as probable criminals. We must redirect law enforcement toward solving specific, known crimes using the particular evidence available to them about that crime. Whatever one’s opinion on drug legalization may be, it’s easy to agree that the state of seizure law in America is reprehensible, even given last year’s minor federal reforms. It should be obvious that there’s something nutty about a legal system that assumes suspects in murder, robbery, and rape cases are innocent until a trial proves otherwise, but assumes that a landscaper carrying some cash is guilty of drug trafficking.
Drugs, prohibitionists commonly point out, can damage a user’s mind. They apparently can have the same effect on the minds of law enforcement officials.
http://reason.com/archives/2001/08/01/the-roots-of-racial-profiling/3
No It is not a figment of the imagination. There is both statistical and anecdotal evidence for this. Google it, you will get a couple of a million hits. You have still avoided the question as to whether or not you are racist. Well, are you racist?
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Drug prohibition is one of the biggest racist movements in the country, I really really really wish abagond would research this and do a post about it.
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O.D:
Like what do you mean? Give an example or two.
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@ Herneith: Thanks.
@ No Slappz:
1. So how do the police look at you? If you think I am imagining things it seems they must look at you differently.
2. You did not answer my question of whether you are a racist. I am not going to put you on the spot and press for an answer. I understand that it is a personal question. But if you want to answer I would like to hear what you have to say.
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abagond, you wrote:
2. You did not answer my question of whether you are a racist.
Here’s you answer. No. I am not.
You wrote:
I understand that it is a personal question.
This is an anonymous website/message board. Thus, the concept of “personal” has no meaning.
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abagond, you asked:
1. So how do the police look at you? If you think I am imagining things it seems they must look at you differently.
On the contrary. When the police stop me, they assume a power position and demand I comply with their requests. There is always a hint of hostility in their manner.
Ya get it? During an encounter, they are nobody’s pal.
And once I was shaken down by some small-town cops and a corrupt judge in upstate NY.
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herneith,
When the victim of a mugging says the assailant was black, the cops look for black muggers.
In NY City 95% of violent crime is committed by blacks and hispanics. If a victim tells police about a white assailant, the police will look for the white assailant. But 95% of the assailants are black or hispanic. It’s that simple.
There was murder not far my house last Friday about 6 pm, on a street beside the athletic fields known as the Parade Grounds by Prospect Park in Brooklyn.
An 18-year-old hispanic gang-banger (DDP = Domincans Don’t Play) was walking with a girl. About a dozen members of a rival gang jumped him on the sidewalk in broad daylight by a playground, and killed him with baseball bats and a machete, beating, stabbing and hacking him to death.
I’m betting the girl set him up. The killers are still at large, but there were many witnesses who gave general descriptions of the attackers.
Do you think the cops should stop white women in their search for the killers?
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Abagond,
Did you honestly expect it to out itself?
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When the victim of a mugging says the assailant was black, the cops look for black muggers.
Oh, they don’t take into account height, weight, skin tone, age, hair style, clothing etc? Given your premise, they would stop every black person they came across!
But 95% of the assailants are black or hispanic. It’s that simple.
Hence it is okay to stop every black, man, woman and child? Looking for an assailant based upon every a clear description is one thing. Doing so because they belong to a profiled group is quite another. All it does is engender suspicion in that particular group.
Do you think the cops should stop white women in their search for the killers?
Based upon the ‘general’ descriptions given, they should not stop anyone. It is a well known fact that eyewitness accounts are unreliable:
http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-2684-Law-Enforcement-Examiner~y2009m12d31-Eyewitness-testimony-unreliable-according-to-experts
Or:
http://www.law.yale.edu/news/2727.htm
Unless a person knows a perpetrator, the likilihood of giving an accurate description is greatly reduced in most instances. Unless of course, the witness has a photographic memory. That is not an excuse to stop members of racialized groups in the hopes you might find the perpetrator. The only thing this serves to do is cause suspicion and distrust in that particular group especially when innocent people are constantly being detained. As for anecdotal situations, most of my male relatives have been stopped by police, is it in their minds? For instance, my brother in-law, a high ranking police Officer, has been stopped or dealt with in a highly degrading manner SEVERAL TIMES. Is it in his mind also? Is it in my nephews, uncles, brothers, cousins, friends etc, minds. As far as I know, they were stopped or dealt with poorly because they were black, nothing else. They were not dealt with or detained due to a crime having been committed in the vicinity or someone pointing them out. In many instances, they were stopped on a seemingly random basis. So no it is not in there minds.
On a lighter note, if you are not racist, you have a funny way of showing it!
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I’m beginning to think it’s universal that people hate cops….
From the time I was child until now, I’ve consistently observed that people hate cops.
In my academic and professional life, it seemed that everyone from students to professors to social workers to domestic violence counselors to attorneys to judges utterly detest cops. As a student I participated in a sociological study and the results came out that 0 students trusted the police. I remember being surprised. As a person of color, you’re automatically warned from childhood not to trust cops no matter what. I’ve never had a truly negative experience, but I just never trusted them by default.
LOL…that day though, I found out white kids get the same warning from their parents. At least out here, they do.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen white guys – seriously – get busted for Walking While White out here – no lie. Don’t ask me why; I do not know what’s going in Appalachia…I must have missed a memo or something. A dude will be strolling and suddenly, three cop cars pull up and dude is face down on the pavement with a “WTF?” expression.
Today – LMAO – one of my 6-year-old clients, an adorably freckled little redhead, overheard his mother say “cops” while he was playing with his toys. He stopped, looked up at me, and shook his head saying, “Cops just aren’t friendly.”
????
And when the subject comes up in casual conversation, every single person seems to have some horrific anecdote.
No seriously…????
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abagond
This is a huge issue in America, I am surprised you haven’t researched this. This is another reason why black men have disproportionately high numbers in prison.
http://www.drugpolicy.org/about/position/race_paper_history.cfm
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/opinionla/la-oew-gutwillig7-2009sep07,0,1308672.story
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Ankhesen
It is true “cops just aren’t friendly,” if a six year old knows this you know there is a problem.
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Ó Dochartaigh,
You know…it honestly didn’t hit me fully until he said it. When I was in kindergarten, we were always being told to trust policemen. Some kids wanted to grow up to be one. But now, they’re strictly “cops” and children are trained early to neither like them nor tell them anything.
Like…damn.
*wipes brow*
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By the way, everyone, this is what I meant –
Notice how when “cops” came up, EVERYONE immediately started to agree on stuff.
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Yeah all except No Slappz.
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herneith, you wrote:
As far as I know, they were stopped or dealt with poorly because they were black, nothing else.
Yeah, As Far As You Know. In other words, you don’t.
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Yeah, As Far As You Know. In other words, you don’t.
I know because they told me. These are professionals, university students, etc. They have never been in trouble with the law so as to serve as constant persons of interest. They do not live in run down areas with high crime rates.(even so, they shouldn’t be stopped). You don’t seem to get it, do you? Innocent people, with no connexion to crime are constantly stopped with no justification whatsoever. Just because some criminals who happen to be black, are at large, doesn’t mean they can stop every black Tom, Dick, and Harry, in hopes of catching the culprit. It is this kind of behaviour which causes distrust amongst blacks and other racialized people. They are in effect being criminalized because they are black. In other words I do know because you sure as hell don’t.
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@Maria
Say what? This side eye is just for you.
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herneith,
As I said, you and the people who have informed you about these matters are equally in the dark about the reality of searching for criminals.
When victims call the cops and describe white perpetrators, the cops stop whites. The cops are well aware of the sometimes faulty nature of descriptions of people often seen for brief periods. Thus, they stop a range of people.
I was once stopped for armed robbery. Why? Because a jewelry store had been robbed, the owner said the robber was white and I was in the area shortly after the robbery.
The experience was unpleasant. The cops had their guns drawn, gave me a serious pat-down and thoroughly searched my vehicle. But they determined I was not their man, and drove off.
The encounter was no fun, but I didn’t take it personally, as you seem to think everyone should.
Your response indicates that you also believe in mind-reading and omniscence, as though the police should know the entire history of a person before stopping that person in connection to a recently reported crime.
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Ó Dochartaigh,
Notice how when “cops” came up, everyone who COUNTS immediately started to agree on stuff.
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if I did everything in this post, I would never have any fun!
(wink)
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leigh204, you’re a racist plain and simple. You are what you loathe. Why don’t you go and examine the wicked history of Asians before you come on here and label all whites as bad guys. Yes, that’s it, white people are afraid of blk people. Sigh… No, we will challenge assholes and extremists like you and Abagond. We will not let you define who we are and try to dehumanize us.
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@John or shall I say…Maria? lol!
Pffft. A$$hole and extremists?!?! Hahahaha! Okaaaaay there. Thanks for making me laugh. 😉 I’m well aware of Asians and their histories among each other as well as with non-Asians. I can say what I want. You don’t like it. Oh, well. Too bad so sad. And John, oops, I mean, Maria, you don’t have to worry about me or abagond or others defining you or dehumanizing you. Whatever nonsense you spout about speaks for itself.
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@Leigh:
It’s the old, “But they did it too!” argument! Hahaha! It puts me in mind of the song “Cry Me A River”
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@Herneith:
I know, eh? I’m thinking, “Boohoohoo. They’re picking on us.” lol!
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Ladies and gentlemen, Whine is served.
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@ John:
Leigh said:
“Oh, well. Too bad so sad. And John, oops, I mean, Maria, you don’t have to worry about me or abagond or others defining you or dehumanizing you. Whatever nonsense you spout about speaks for itself.”
I agree. The stuff white commenters say is way more damaging than anything I or Leigh can say. When we say it everyone knows it is merely our opinion. But then white people get on here and say stuff that removes all doubt how deep and ugly their racism runs, giving a bad name to all whites.
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do not be yourself: as a mixed race person, i often enjoy the company of black people more because i find that- ‘i will say what i want from the heart’ attitude refreshing. I have found that some white people only tend to say things that they think will impress others and seem to care more about fitting in than black people do.
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Most persons, no matter what race, are very ego centric and see the world through the very narrow prism of their own experiences. I’ve found that the number one offense that is taken to be an act of racism is simple ignorance on the part of the other party. It’s as if some persons can’t fathom that somebody else with a completely different life experience doesn’t see the world the way they do and get annoyed at this fact.
That’s the whole back and forth of this thread in a nut shell. One side fuming at the other that they aren’t like them. It’s pretty silly and pointless. I don’t expect everyone else to think the way that I do; if that was the case then what would be the point of conversation?
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avoid race as much as you can: hah i’ve learnt that. i can do this with one white friend. but most others i’ve ever met either act as if racial difference and racism doesn’t exist or vilify you for mentioining it.
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@melissa
most others i’ve ever met either act as if racial difference and racism doesn’t exist or vilify you for mentioining it.
You know why? Because it’s in bad form. That’s not the kind of thing you bring up in everyday conversation. One of the most important aspects of having social skills is to know your audience and the vast majority of people don’t enjoy antagonistic subjects. It doesn’t matter if it’s about race or politics. There’s no reason to stir up debate with persons that don’t want to engage you.
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Sagat:
Wow, that was so classic.
So by your reasoning if my neighbour ran over my dog and killed him I should keep my mouth shut because to bring it up would be “bad form”, not “knowing my audience”, bringing up an “antagonistic subject” he does not “enjoy”. After all, no reason to “stir up” someone who does not want to “engage” me.
This is not called “having social skills”. Wrong. That is an obscene euphemism at best. No, it is called white privilege. Blacks HAVE to talk about race, whites do not, not unless they want to. And most seem to avoid because, as you say, they do not “enjoy” that subject.
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Sagat:
Maybe you should read this:
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Abe,
Wow. You counter my point by using an example that is totally unrelated and not even comparable. You think that your everyday interactions with White people is akin to a traumatic situation involving the death of your pet? Please. If that’s the way that you perceive things, then I’m right in saying that you lack social skills. In fact, I’d say that you’re seriously maladjusted if that’s the way you see the world. If you think Blacks HAVE to talk about race constantly with Whites, then you are no different than a crank that complains constantly about how bad his life is. Who the hell wants to have to deal with a person like that?
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If you think Blacks HAVE to talk about race constantly with Whites
Surely there’s some area in between “talk about race constantly with Whites” and “avoid race as much as you can”? I mean, I talk with my husband, for instance, about feminism, sometimes, and I don’t make it the theme of every dinner conversation.
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Surely there’s some area in between “talk about race constantly with Whites” and “avoid race as much as you can”? I mean, I talk with my husband, for instance, about feminism, sometimes, and I don’t make it the theme of every dinner conversation.
Yeah, there’s a time and place for everything. I’m fervently anti-war, but I don’t bring it up all the time. If the subject is broached, I’ll definitely jump in with my two cents, but I don’t consider it my mission in life to convert every person to my viewpoint. You see, I can accept that other persons see things differently than I do. I’ve learned to pick my battles and there’s nothing to be gained from arguing with others that don’t want to argue. I don’t need to prove that I’m right.
The same goes for racial issues. Why bring up contentious issues in a social setting? That’s not how you have a good time. Maybe pissing people off is how some have a good time, but as I said, that’s a clear sign of being maladjusted.
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Sagat,
The way I see it… Nobody says you MUST talk about race ALL THE TIME if you are in a company of black people. I don’t even believe (correct me if I’m wrong) that black people want or expect you to talk about race only (they are interested in other subjects and issues after all). However, I do believe it’s very important for a non-white person to know talking about race IS POSSIBLE with you (general you). It doesn’t mean you have to talk about it 24/7, but a black person should know it’s possible to talk about race with you if they feel the need to talk about it (without you “running away from the subject”).
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Also, if an issue is truly important to you (racism, being anti-war, homosexual marriage, whatever), avoiding the subject just for the sake of having a good time doesn’t make any sense. Why would I want to have a “good time” in a company of a war supporting homophobic racist if those the issues I feel strongly about?
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@abagond:
Exactly. You can clearly see how calling them out on their bs upsets them.
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I guess Miss “fight people like you” Maria/John or Johria didn’t get the side eye pic.
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@ Mira,
Why would I want to have a “good time” in a company of a war supporting homophobic racist if those the issues I feel strongly about?
Why would I be hanging out with people that are my polar opposite in the first place? Like I said, there’s a time and place for everything. If someone is being obnoxious and spouting viewpoints that I don’t agree with, then I don’t associate with them. If you’re at a party with a bunch of people that you don’t feel comfortable with, then leave. If you can’t leave, then find common ground. These aren’t radical ideas or anything. It’s what you do to get along with others. I’m not even sure what the objection is to these basic rules of social etiquette. Maybe some of you are just young, but it shouldn’t take long to learn that race, religion and politics are subjects that are going to lead to agitation. I know sometimes you need to agitate, but you have to learn that it’s totally ineffective to be a 24/7 malcontent.
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Sagat:
No one but you is talking about 24/7 malcontents. Give it up already.
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Sagat:
So if I am in a Social Setting and someone says something out-and-out racist, what should I do according to you?
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@Abagond
sarcasmn well you shouldn’t call them racist for saying somthing racist becasue that will hurt their feelings.
LOL
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You’d have to give an example. I’d like to know what you would qualify as being out-and-out racist. I know you live up in New York, but I live in the South and people can be pretty damn offensive here and I get the impression that your perception of offense is a lot different than mine.
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Abagond,
Oh how I’ve missed you…I haven’t been here in a while but it is nice to see that you are still amusing!!
Keep up the humor with your personal reflections and insights…
As a West Indian immigrant, I had to learn some of your golden rules very quickly in order to swim these murky waters in the US of A……after University, I started working for a corporation and the black Americans were wary of making friends with me but after several lunches together, they did warn me about our white American co-workers and told me to be careful because they’re fake.
and on the flipside, the white Americans loved to tell me I was “different” (probably due to my accent), loved to compliment me on my flawless English, and they decided that since I was not American, to warn me about not picking up any behaviors that are considered “black” (i.e talking loudly{obviously they didn’t know me})…but this advise came about only after I went to several lunches with the white group and they realized that I didn’t dislike white people.
The funny part was, in the back of my mind, all I’m thinking is “I don’t want any part of this–I am just here for the money! and thank God my boss was German”
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So if I am in a Social Setting and someone says something out-and-out racist, what should I do according to you?
Let me guess… Ignore it and simply continue to talk about weather.
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It’s interesting to read all this anti-white racism. Congratulations you’ve learned your lessons well!
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I wonder if the white commenters that come here and say how racist it is, would go to Stormfront and tell them how racist they are being? This blog isn’t even on that level in any sense, yet some white commenters find room to complain. I’m sorry — don’t care.
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@Natasha W –
Going out on a limb here, but most “White” commenters are here because they think outside the box generally speaking and want to engage in dialogue from a cultural perspective. (Observation: odd that several of us are “Brazilian” so to speak)
The others are derailers….. (no explanation needed)
The few persistent ones enjoy a good debate, and continue to butt heads with opposition here on this blog. However, once in awhile good points are made, and it serves to further education and intellectual debate. (albeit not always…)
As far as this site being racist: When I first came across this blog, my immediate assumption was that it is; However, after participating in threads and actually reading Abagond’s articles, I see that it is not racist. Does that mean there are not prejudices or racial overtones? Of course not.
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ColorofLuv
Going out on a limb here, but most “White” commenters are here because they think outside the box generally speaking and want to engage in dialogue from a cultural perspective.
I wasn’t referring to the commenters that actually discuss things here in an intelligent, impartial way, but the ones that come and say “Well, this blog has shown me how racist black people are! Congrats!” They are usually only make a couple of comments, or are around for a short period.
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@Natasha W – understood.
Unfortunately, too many are guilty of driving by and shouting “racist” without ever taking the time to soak in the view and contemplate.
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What’s up with that smiling before they stab you in the back??? I just learned about this one first hand. Scary!
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^ Been knew about the smiling before stabbing you in the back. Its just something white folks do especially on the job.
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I think whites do this to everybody (including themselves). Not sure about the other races, so I can’t speak anything about it, but (white) people I know definitely do smile-backstabbing thing way too often.*
*SOME people, of course
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@ Leaveumthining –
That has happened to me quite frequently in my professional career. I have been stabbed in the back, had others take credit for my work, etc… but I’m not sure it was racially motivated. I’m White… I credit this behavior to bad individuals acting badly. (I now cover my arse as best as i can and call people out that need some corrective action handed to them.)
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@ Leaveumthinking — My apologies. I just realized your comment was in regards to the “fly bys/drive bys” on this blog. If I could erase my previous comments, I would.
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Yes my comments are not directed to all whites. I’m only talking about the whites who are racist.
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The stuff white commenters say is way more damaging than anything I or Leigh can say. When we say it everyone knows it is merely our opinion. But then white people get on here and say stuff that removes all doubt how deep and ugly their racism runs, giving a bad name to all whites.
My point exactly. In an effort to disprove whatever you say about them, they show up here and confirm it.
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Brilliant strategy, I might add.
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My point exactly. In an effort to disprove whatever you say about them, they show up here and confirm it.
Yeah. And the likes of RR and No_Slappz are surely the norm among whites… right?
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RR is black or so he says.
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Phbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbt.
And I’m Timmy Wise in disguise.
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Lol.
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Abagond, I guess this post is honest with a touch of sarcasm. I do se some of your point, and I imagining you enjoy fucking up white middle class garden parties, tea parties or whata fuck you calling it. I do think Ó Dochartaigh have some good points claming this is a class phenomena, not related to skin color. This is related to people who struggle to be something they may not are, or struggle to keep their position. People with very specific sets of values they try to show others they live up to, also tend to get easily offended. Associate this list of yours being typical for “how to speak to” American (white) Christian middle class, I may tend to agree more to your generalization. Not that this is unique only for these group.
One the other hand (I’m may wrong cause I’m white) if you constantly talks about your feelings, how smart, educated and moneyed you are, which books you reading, constantly talks about your self, your experience and brilliant ideas and always points out the wrong in what other says: Yes, then I would easily define you as an extremely annoying person I would make an great effort avoid speaking more than necessarily to. I don’t think you have to be white American to jump to that conclusion. If you on top of that, pull up the good old racist card because I’m avoiding you or you sense that I pity you, I probably just would look for a good place to dig myself a hole.
I know it’s cocky, and I just realized I have some values and expectations of how I expect people to behave my self, sadly.
In my experience people who are happy with what they are, and not in a defending position, tend to give more dam, are less judging and doesn’t get easily offended or disgusted. If anyone wants some extreme views and theories on that, I’m easy to ask.
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@ Thaddeus (if you’re still around)
Yes, actually. And so are you.
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Abagond,
So, basically you are suggesting that people be total cowards and not be themselves. Why? Your generalizations about white people are racists, ignorant bullshit. They ignore the fact that white people are individuals. There are also many cultural differences among white people.
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16: Do not be sassy or show confidence in oneself. This is acceptable amongst latino and black people. When a black person says ‘yea I can win this competiton’, other black people don’t bat an eye lid. But white people see it as arrogance.
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You know what , grow up. It’s evident that most of you minorities make your own problems, by observing the hypocrisy and immaturity in your post. Please, your the ones who don’t see it both ways. Just like you don’t like to see white people stereotyping you, we don’t like to see stereotypes being used for us. Please, if you want respect, grow up, and respect yourselves. Don’t try to intimidate me neither; I’m a white girl you wouldn’t want to cross in real life because I am real and I am racist. I grew up and live in queens. I do not trust blacks and Hispanics because most are insecure and take it out on all white people( including children). This is the truth whether you call me names or not. I work at a daycare where I see insecure Hispanics do nothing but talk shit, complain about every white person they meet (no matter how real or nice), and mentally abuse and mistreat white children. They do so explicitly I may ad. Don’t get me wrong, I hate fake white people too, theyre the reason we get picked on. I’m not ignorant about white privelidge neither, I just think you exaggerate it to an extreme and let it rule your life and self esteem. I do emphasize the self esteem part. You are unwilling to see life from different perspectives, which is why I will be called names in the following comments. You can go ahead and prove me right. I judge people individually, but am not naive to the fact that most of you are great whiners and hypocrites held down by your own self esteem issues. If you think that’s a bigoted statement, your right, but it’s no different from any of yours. When you respect yourselves, expect it in return. Most people will respect you regardless, you will not receive it though, because of your warped saddened mind. Like I said, most people will give you respect regardless of if you act like an ass or not. Do not take your insecurities out on me.I for one will not take it. If you cross me , I will make your ass cry.
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I love how people say they only hate the racist white people, while they accuse every white person who defends themselves of being racist. You are an impossible brick wall who is a hypocrite. I only seek to defend my hard working family who struggles and is honest from your stereotypes and every day bigotry which is all around us. I don’t give in to your peoples hypocrisy though; yes I’m a bigot also, but I am held responsable for my actions, while you are not. You are held up by fake ass white people who are too afraid to talk, too afraid to defend themselves and their families. So I guess th OP was right in a way. But like I said I fucking hate hypocrites.
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Oh, and I love how minorities never talk about how alot of whites voted for Obama, they only talk about one or two white supremacists who probobly would of never went through with their death threats. Also to the person who made a comment about white people only talking about ending slavery, look at it this way: Black people only talk about some white people having slaves, and not the fact that they gave their life for your freedom, or that they marched in civil rights marches. Why don’t you practice what you preach and focus on your own people, which are part of the problem. Yes I said it, some of your ignorant, violent , people are part of the reason why racism still exists in this country, just as some white people are. This is the case so why not focus on your own people and let white people focus on their own as they already are for the most part. This way, the very few white people who question blacks and ” don’t exclusively look after their own people” would be fewer in number. Respect yourselves, learn to recognize that you are part of the problem or you will continue to feel marginalized and insignificant. I will also continue to be the honest bigot I am today.
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@Angie:
Ooh, big talk from some online bad ass. LOL! 😀
Aw, how nice. An honest bigot! LOL! 🙂
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Slow down Angie, you’re heading toward cardiac arrhythmia.
This is a site that speaks specifically to the structural majority racism, as experienced *primarily* in the United States. We are speaking to a specific, serious, and and long-term problem. No one is denying the idea that this is the ONLY problem. It is just the main focus of our discussions here.
And lastly, no one is under the illusion that Blacks and other minorities are somehow incapable of causing some of their own problems.
“Black people only talk about some white people having slaves, and not the fact that they gave their life for your freedom, or that they marched in civil rights marches.”
Angie, have you ever heard the term, “It takes money to make money?” Slaves could make you a lot of money, but they were also expensive to purchase, house, and maintain. Most White Southerners didn’t have slaves because they SIMPLY couldn’t afford them – although they completely supported and condoned the system and saw nothing wrong with treating human beings like stock animals (including women and children).
As for northerners “giving their lives for our” freedom, you might want to check out a history book from the library trailer. The Civil War did not begin with Abraham Lincoln declaring the slaves free and provoking the Southern States into an secession. There were many economic and states rights issues of which slavery was only one component. Lincoln himself had planned to free the slaves and deport them to Latin America. The “self-sacrificial Northerners” spent another hundred years cruelly discriminating and calling Black people ‘niggers’ before much changed. I don’t think that most of them were giving their White lives to free those same ‘niggers,’ do you?
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Another troll talking out of their arse….
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I’m a white girl you wouldn’t want to cross in real life because I am real and I am racist.
Well at least you’re honest!
If you cross me , I will make your ass cry.
I wish I had a violin so I could write myself a concerto!
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I want to say a few things first:
I’m white, middle class college student from the suburbs
I understand the seriousness of racism, I have read a number of books on the subject all written by black people, as well as countless articles by both black and white people like Tim Wise
Lastly, I agree with you on many points about racism in the US, and I am well aware that I benefit from white privilege.
And yet, I will probably never go out of my way to seriously fight against racism. And why would you expect my to after making a post like this? And not just this one, but others, especially the one titled: “What this blog has taught me about white people”
As I read through dozens of your posts, I can’t help but ask: where do you keep meeting these white people? Where are these white people who actively put down blacks out of jealousy and in attempt to preserve their self worth? Where are all these white people who don’t give a shit about politics and hate people who are smarter than they are? Were are all these white people with a “sick, insecure, wife beater” frame of mind? Where are all these white people who never talk about their feelings and only ever use small talk? Yeah, okay, I meet these sorts of people regularly, but the vast majority of people I converse with are nothing like that.
But that’s not the point. One prevalent theme in your blog is the idea that non-white people are incapable of the same racism, which from my experience, couldn’t be further from the truth. I live in Toronto, a city that’s only 50% white, and I have seen and heard about ridiculous amounts of racism from white and non whites alike. I have met countless minorities who are simple minded about politics, relationships, and everything else. I have met “model minorities” who turn out to me complete and utter clueless morons whenever I talk to them about anything outside of schoolwork. Most of all, I have met minorities who without restraint lump white people into easily swallow-able stereotypes -in other words people just like you Abagond. It has become increasingly obvious that if the power balance was ever reversed, so would the roles, if not more so.
The people commenting on your posts are even worse and more blatant, (though admittedly most comments are made by the same 4-5 people who seem to make a dozen comments a day) completely contradicting your notion that white people are the jealous and bitter ones in this struggle. The most surprising one was when some white lady posted about how she LITERALLY thought most white kids were freaks and would grow up to be serial killers – the post it self was silly, as she seemed to just be terrified by a culture different from the one she grew up in. But then you followed up by saying that it was “wonderful, beautiful, and lovely”, and that she is “exactly how white people should be like”.
It’s no wonder that Tim Wise never tells his audience to go explore what minorities have to say about their own plight, because he knows what kind of hatred that lies there – the kind that would immediately turn away any white person. It’s not just here, I have been to many sites and forums where minorities discuss this obviously serious issue, and every time I begin to notice this same hatred and blatant assumption that they know everything about white people and white people don’t understand them. It’s always the visitors of those sites that are the worst, the ones that will spew nothing but hatred that sometimes would be hard to distinguish from Stormfront if you were to strip away the context.
It’s especially no wonder that so little progress in race relations has been made since the civil rights era. Because every time a white person tries to educate themselves on this subject they find people like you and lose the will to go further – because why fight something that doesn’t hurt you? Why care about people who despise you?
Now, I’m not saying I no longer care about people of a different race – it’s just that while I have grown to be more enlightened on the seriousness of racism, my respect for people who fight racism has progressively fallen. Every time I see the damage that racism does to the world, I am reminded about people like you and I lose my will to do anything about it.
I just want you to know that when people tell you that you hate white people, it’s not because they’re offended by your accusations about racism, it’s because you really do hate white people.
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Let the bitter, angry backlash flow…
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Anon:
What makes you think I hate white people? What in particular did I say? Please give examples.
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@ Anon
Just want to first clarify that I’m not to seem like I’m against you or anything.
But in the past I’ve noticed that whenever an angry white person visits one of the handful of black sites (when in comparison to the overwhelming number of whites sites) that talk about race issues, they often use the “we’ll never progress, if you don’t stop this hatred!” type of responses. But on white sites that are deliberately hyperbolic and hate filled, you rarely/never see this same type of moral outrage from responsible whites. Even on sites that don’t censor/delete posts. More often than not, you see white posters hanging on to these words like they are the gospel.
(*cough!* HBD, Stormfront, DeadNiggerStorage, SBPDL, etc…*cough!*)
Now this is obviously speculation on my part, but it seems like there a certain amount of fear from these absent whites. It seems that inevitably being called a “Race Traitor” and a “White Guilt Pusher” (sanitized version of “Nigger Lover”) by fellow whites (no matter how wrong the accusers are) and being “kicked out the white club” for responsibly speaking against such issues is a fate worse than death for some whites.
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@abagond
Okay, here’s an example: This blog post.
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And what in particular did I say in this post that makes you think I hate white people?
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@Franklin
That’s why I posted my “credentials” in the beginning, to show that I’m not making those excuses. I hate it when people make those excuses too, but they’re not hate filled, it’s a result of not knowing any better.
The “white club” thing is a metaphor, you can’t be kicked out of it, especially when you post anonymously on the internet.
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Abagond, how about you actually address my post? I’m not wasting my time on this bullshit.
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Anon:
You tell me I hate white people, it seemed to be one of your main points, but now you are unwilling to back it up. Who is wasting whose time?
On my blog I try to give my honest opinion. I am not going to sugarcoat it for the tender ears of white people. Screw that. If they are not interested in honest opinion about race, then they cannot be all that serious about it to begin with.
There is hatred of white people out there, of course, but I think you are mostly confusing anger and criticism for hatred. People have every reason to be angry about racism and criticize it.
My advice to you is the opposite of Tim Wise’s: Read as many people of colour as you can. But when you read, put yourself in their shoes, not yours.
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So you aren’t going address anything I said? That’s up to you.
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Anonn:
See also:
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I have already stated in my original comment that I’m not making those arguments, and yet you still insist on the idea that I’m just offended by your “realistic attitude”. This just shows how you’re uninterested in any reasonable discussion and only care about your own views.
Also the reason I’m not going to argue why I think you hate white people is because it only draws away from my point. Address my whole post, not a tiny part of it.
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@anon: what an earth is your point, other than that abagond and all minorities hate whites, sometimes even secretly?? I see no other point.
And yes, I am a white guy, a bit older than you and just from my personal experience I say this: think. Get around. Get to know people. I mean really know them. Not just on the Hi-Hi level. You’d be surprised.
Racism is a fact. It lives in your head too. You blame the minorities of being sick and tired of majorities. You blame the opressed of anger. Which is very common and comes naturally from somebody who is young and still sees this world in two shades. This world is much more complex, so is racism. It is a whole system of thinking. You may even not notice when you are going along with it. It comes naturally in a world which is racist.
Personally I try to keep things on individual level. If somebody is a dumbass, he/she is, REGARDLESS of the color of the skin. If somebody is a-hole, so be it, no matter what the color is. BUT
I try not forget the history and the backround of the said person. While I may no agree with that person, I try to understand why he/she is like he/she is. There is a wider frame too. I try to figure that out and then figure out how this individual fits in the big picture. If the person is a black american, I better remember where he/she comes from. He/she reacts the way he/she has learned, in the framework of the culture he/she comes from.
If you get tired at the age 20something of trying to figure out the racism in our lives, well, you have no stamina. Me, pushing fifty, I am still working it out. Thinking does not end when you finish the school. Then it begins.
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If this blog discourages you from fighting racism then you were not all that serious to begin with.
You think I hate white people. I disagree:
I have never said, once, anywhere, that blacks are not racist against whites. What I did say is that black racism against whites is like a drop in a bucket compared to white racism against blacks due to the difference in power between the two in America:
That does not make black racism right, of course, but it does mean that saying it is just as bad or worse than white racism is laughable. There are white people who say that, of course, but that is because they are blind to the scale of white racism.
If you are fighting racism to “help” other races, then you are probably in it for the wrong reasons and, as a white person, you would probably do more harm than good. You fight racism because it is just plain wrong, because it is an injustice. Even from an economic view, it destroys the human capital of the country.
Racism even hurts white people (though most look the other way due to its benefits):
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@Anon,
I’d like to add. The above is a typical response I’ve come to expect a white person would make. Its what can be termed a “cop-out” and it should probably be added to this list. It smacks of ingrained, smugness and indifference brought on by years of over indulgence in white privilege.
Apparently, inequality and social justice is not worth fighting for as long as it doesn’t affect you personally.
If only Black people or POC had the same luxury…
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White commenter here.
@ Anon
“it’s just that while I have grown to be more enlightened on the seriousness of racism, my respect for people who fight racism has progressively fallen. Every time I see the damage that racism does to the world, I am reminded about people like you and I lose my will to do anything about it. ”
If POC have an opinion about us in general it’s our fault for showing them that face. Yes you and I know that WP aren’t a monolithic bunch of a**holes. but if we always act like Assholes towards POC they will think we are a**holes. I can’t blame them because I know that this is the side of us that most whites show POC. The fact that this is generally the side of WP that POC see is well documented.
The only time most POC see a non-a**hole WP is on TV, and even there WP are pushing POC out of the picture (so to speak).
So, if you have a problem with how POC see you than stop being an a**hole and maybe that will change 😉
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Sagat
@melissa
most others i’ve ever met either act as if racial difference and racism doesn’t exist or vilify you for mentioining it.
You know why? Because it’s in bad form. That’s not the kind of thing you bring up in everyday conversation. One of the most important aspects of having social skills is to know your audience and the vast majority of people don’t enjoy antagonistic subjects. It doesn’t matter if it’s about race or politics. There’s no reason to stir up debate with persons that don’t want to engage you.
@ sagat:
You obviously must have some bashful boring people in your life if you have no one you can talk to about topics that may interest you whether that be race, politics or sex (hush).
I don’t go around having racial debates with people out of the blue to make them uncomfortable but if someone says something I find offensive then I may feel I want to say something depending on the situation. take for example a white girl tells me she walked past a group of black men she thought were scary I might want to ask why these men were scary because they were black.
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I don’t thing that is a issue of the color for the skin. I thing it is all in there mind. Today, if you would like to be as “good” you have to lie and if you are good – just good, that worry people. Because people do not believe in good people anymore, so you anyway bad. It is crazy. Sometimes it is good I can’t speak so good English, so I have a excuse.
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This list sounds like it was made by someone who doesn’t actually know any WP. Clearly Abagond’s real interaction is limited or he has chosen to engage in confirmation bias.The list isn’t racist because Abagond as a black man lacks the power component. However, I would call this an unapologetic promotion of a racially prejudiced mindset.
It’s easy for someone who is on the outside of a particular group to reduce said group to some narrow and usually negative list of behaviors. This list could just as easily been written by an angry white goth teenager to describe his view of “jocks” or “preps” and it displays just as little insight or maturity.
I suppose Abagond feels that this type of reductionism is ok when directed at whites because we have all the power. I would argue that while it is definitely less damaging it is nonetheless ignorant.
POC who adopt this way of thinking are doing more harm to themselves than good. It may make you feel better to isolate yourself and tell yourself WP suck and are shallow after encountering some racism, but that’s not going to help you get anywhere in a society dominated by whites. If you refuse to engage you’re going to miss out on untold opportunities.
I wonder if Abagond really has the best interests of POC in mind when he posts stuff like this, or if it’s just his way of licking his own wounds in public.
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Umm… well I don’t follow much of anything on this list when speaking to middle class suburban whites(virtually all the white ppl I kno) & I don’t have any trouble speaking to them. Friend or acquaintance most seem friendly on the surface. However, in the back of my mind I often wonder if they have any hidden prejudiced or hateful beliefs in this PC atmosphere we live in.
That being said, I don’t assume anything about white individuals when conversing w/ them. *Shrugs* I just hope those kinds of whites have the courtesy to abstain from my presence.
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“However, in the back of my mind I often wonder if they have any hidden prejudiced or hateful beliefs in this PC atmosphere we live in.”
Totally reasonable imo.
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wow, that post was so true! my child is biracial. it was so shocking to me that this guy was sitting around my house for over a year, and the second I said I was pregnant, he said “I’ll be right back.” and that was it…. in the time since then I have seen all your points come to life. maybe this article will help me next time I have to be near his horrible family. Because I do notice the complete loss of interest when I try to bring up anything moderately serious, and forget about anything regarding our child that is anything but vapid stories of frivolity, the zoning-out is almost instant.
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also that racist no_slappz person proved your points for you repeatedly. especially about not discussing race… it’s crazy, you can say your great-great-great grandmother had her children ripped away from her, was raped by her master and then died 6 days later while picking cotton, and there’s always a white person who will pop up and tell you how innocent the institution of slavery was, and how we should just “let it go already”. or ridicule the economy of a low-income community where, duh, barnes and noble don’t set up shop because they’re in it for the money, and the statistics they select locales by has nothing to do with race, but income in an area. low-income black people go where the rent is cheaper, low-income whites move back in with their parents rather than admit they are low-income and get in the welfare line where they belong :-p
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I can hardly relate to this, but I’m white so I guess I’m not supposed to (Now my post has already been discounted by the majority of readers! Bummer). I grew up in Sacramento where white is practically the minority. I don’t have many white friends at all—mostly asian, black and mexican friends. We all get along really well…I don’t think they particularly hate me for my vile white ways. I generally just say what’s on my mind and I don’t pretend I’m something I’m not. I don’t look down on people when they express their personal opinions or beliefs either. Neither does anyone in my family. So please understand, when I read something like this, I personally find it a tad ignorant and rude. Perhaps it’s supposed to be funny, but I’m pretty sure it’s based on how you truly feel…which is awfully disgusting. If you have truly felt this way about every white you’ve spoken to then wow, our race has a lot of work to do. Generally, though, I think you’re just a bitter person who needs to see a little more of the world before you truly decide to form such a radical opinion.
Stop the hate. Thanks!
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I LOVE THIS THANK YOU!!!!!!!
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Man, it is great to be white. When I’m in a traffic jam, the police come by and shoo the minorities out of the way. My customers pay me extra and thank me for, “just being white.” I vote twice and the registrar winks at me and says, “You really should vote three times because you are so smart and good looking and this country really appreciates all your hard work and contributions. At work, I get promoted even though the minorities word harder, are smarter and more dedicated, and steal less than me. At the doctor’s office, I get to go to the head of the line, and usually get free care. When I get audited, the IRS writes me a check. Every other time I get gas, it is secretly comped. The government forgave my mortgage, my cable is free, and I haven’t paid an electrcity bills in my heavens I don’t know when.
White privilege is so cool, and I’m often unaware of all the benefits of it!
I’m off to the country club!
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@ Abe Goldstein
That is not what white privilege means:
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This is very true and helpful. It’s going to be great for me to remember so I don’t punch there ass square in the face when I’m talking to them. Thanks a lot.
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Isn’t that the way all people have to talk to strangers when they first meet that what I was always told.
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In my experience as a non strait white women I have to talk like this to most people I suppose that’s why you mentioned ellen
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invert the occurences of white with black on this page and repost. see what comments you get. this is a racist page friends
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@andy
“this is a racist page friends”
Okay buddy!
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I work at a sports pub and most of the time all there is to converse about is sports with white folks but its mostly the fellas, occasionally I flirt with the female patrons or coworkers but not to the point they think Im a creep, talking about music and musicians is something I do also but its getting boring….mostly to me in general……any other ideas would help..this is a dilemma!
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You shouldn’t change how you talk to anyone(especially everyday americans you might encounter in everyday life) depending on race. I’ll tell you what. You might just get a knuckle sandwich from someone who lives up to Dr. Kings dream…. Judging someone not by the color of their skin, but by the content of what they type on a blog. WATCH YOUR MOUTH.
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Don’t put up a disguise.. be you (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2BelSdIUOY)
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@ Abagond,
Interesting. Most of your advice applies to white readers as well as black. I was taught growing up that in polite society you shouldn’t discuss:
1.politics
2. sex
3. money
So that would cover 12 & 6 on your list. And as a general principle avoid discussions about race and religion if not in like-minded company.
I suppose most of the items on your list can be summed up under the title of white culture. We are always smiling and shaking hands and talking about what team did what over the weekend. So if you are white or black and want to ingratiate yourself with whites following your dictates plus mine on race, sex and religion should see most people through the day without crossing any social boundaries.
Aside from our views on race, white middle class culture is very conservative.
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Hiya, this is my first time commenting on this blog although I have been gorging on it for a few months now. First I want to say thank you for creating this space. I am a Black American who has lived in England for some time.
This post rings so true to me! Recently my coworkers have been trying to discuss politics but I don’t bother responding anymore. When I do give my opinion they all go quiet and then change the subject.
Reading this blog helps me to just roll my eyes and laugh at the situation so I can get on with my day. Many thanks Abagond!
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I once worked at a place where all my co-workers were white. It was definitely a different environment for me. I learned to how to be fake and caught on to their vocabulary and taste in music (yay, nay, the more the merrier, bat outta hell, touché, Coldplay, Van Halen, country music, cycling, etc). Picked up the small talk, as well. Out of work, it became easy to engage white people in small talk (be fake, follow rule # 7). One thing I did notice among some white males is beta males who would try to so hard to play the alpha role. It was very stupid but funny.
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Reblogged this on kimsbeeblog110.
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thanks, dude!
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The fact that non-whites aren’t excepted for being themselves and have to hide feelings and frustrations, is why I think there’s no hope for humanity and I’m done with humanity. This world is so fucked up, I don’t want to live in it anymore.
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Hi Kristy
I used to find myself thinking and feeling like you. Please ignore me if I am preachy and condescending.
I can’t remember what thing that brought me out of that abyss of despair. (I had never thought that apartheid would ever end). For me, in part, is living with hope. But there is so much more to it.
Perhaps it was understanding what ‘Black is Beautiful’ means or when reading and learning about Black people and other oppressed peoples struggles, locating the very the best examples of humanity. In learning about Harriet Tubman, extraordinary courage. Saartjie Baartman, unimaginable resilience. Queen Nzinga, fearless warrior against the Portuguese . Angela Davis, Toni Morrison. And thousands and thousands more. And that is just the women.
Amidst the chaos and despair, are very beautiful people who are good, loving, kind- hearted, courageous, creative and strong. As an older person, I also derive much pleasure from seeing younger people creating their own spaces.
You /we are so much more than they think we are (and their opinion should not matter. How could they know?) We are also so much more than we think we are. No doubt, you are a beautiful and bright young woman and the world is better place because you are in it. And by your own example of triumph, beauty, love, creativity, goodness, can influence some- one/ society in a profound way.
Steve Biko writes that the special contribution of Black people is in the field of human relationship and our greatest gift is giving the world a more human face.
And although this is an on-line virtual space, I wish the very best for you in your journey.
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This gives me the giggles. Because there is quite a bit of truth to this.
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I try not to discuss social injustice issues it makes them nervous or annoyed even with my white best friends it makes them uncomfortable.
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Mary said “I try not to discuss social injustice issues it makes them nervous”.
If a black person brings up social justice then the white person will think the black person wants something from him, like his tax money or an apology. White people think social justice is like welfare, given to people who don’t really want to work, and those that demand it are activists, agitators and unemployable.
When I bring up social justice to white people I have been called a “social justice warrior” as if I’m forcing something upon them. I’ve also been called an “activist” a “progressive” and a “cultural Marxist”.
White people will label other white people with hyphens if your views fall outside the standard default.
If you want to watch a white persons head explode just mention White supremacy or make arguments for reparations.
White people who acknowledge white supremacy are so rare that the statement
“being on the political fringe” doesn’t apply because your not even on the spectrum.
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When I have spoke about racism to white people it was pretty much to see what level of awareness they possessed about their white privilege – or if they believed that systemic racism AGAINST BLACK PEOPLE existed.
One persistent belief I’ve seen again and again is that Black people (supposedly) have societal (RACIST) advantages… because they’re Black. The typical reasoning I hear is that Black people are more prone to get into colleges of their choosing,.. taking slots that should have gone to harder working whites with better GPAs.
I have also seen that the subject of reparations is a very touchy or volatile topic for a lot of DIFFERENT people. It’s like non-Black (and even some Black) people believe that reparations should be a zero-sum game. The argument is that if everyone doesn’t benefit, then neither should any particular group, because the belief is that reparation money will come directly out of their pocket, or if it is otherwise paid, it will somehow hurt them.
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I know this is a very old post, but I just have to say…
Oh, goodness. *I* follow these rules. Not around *all* other white people, of course, but certainly around a great number of them. Ugh, I can’t stand that culture. The whole “never talk about anything important, just goof off and chat about shallow fluff” social mentality… it makes me ill. T_T I very often have to be quite cautious about expressing any personal opinion around those groups.
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Looks like by your post, South Asians are just like white people.
South Asians are super passive aggressive. It’s considered NORMAL by them.
Typical old-school South Asian: nice/polite to your face, bitch about you behind your back.
Always make small talk.
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