I would love to say that the heavens tore open and the angels came down and I saw God, but that is not how it went. I would love to be able to say it is because Christians are such nice people who are leading the revolution to make the world a better place, but it is not like that either. I love books so instead it came through a book: the Bible.
I used to be a Marxist – I rarely called myself that back then, partly because Marxism just seemed like common sense to me. I was a materialist: everything is just matter in motion, no gods need apply. Religion was for old women, like my very Catholic grandmother. No one with any brains would go for that stuff.
I promised my wife that I would read the whole Bible. So I did, from end to end. I was shocked: God told the Jews to wipe out people, to play dirty tricks on them. It was full of all these rules about animal sacrifice and these overly long visions of prophets that made them seem more mad than wise. Then there was Jesus performing miracles – and everyone knows that miracles go against science. Etc.
So at first reading it did more harm than good. My mother-in-law, another very religious old woman in my life, said it was because I had read it like a paperback novel. I forgot to pray! Right: pray to a god who is not there. And besides, I am not that simple-minded when it comes to books. But it was that – knowing about books – that was my undoing.
I had read communist histories of China so I knew what a history book is like when it is blinded by its own ideas. To my surprise the Bible was not like that. And the miracles were rare and surprisingly matter-of-fact.
Then there was the Resurrection when Jesus rose from the dead. The truth of Christianity rises or falls on that one piece of history. I thought it would take me 30 seconds to show how it could not be true. But 30 seconds turned into 30 minutes then 30 hours then 30 days then 30 months – it became all I could think about – and yet still I failed. I thought of everything, like maybe he played dead or his followers went mad. Surprisingly none of it held up.
I did not want to be a Christian. First, it is what my wife and mother-in-law wanted and I did not want to give in to them (and in the end I did not: I became something that in their eyes was even worse than a Marxist: a Catholic. It nearly tore my marriage apart). Second, it went against my intellectual pride. I did not want to be told the answers – I wanted to find them out for myself! But then I remembered something a favourite schoolteacher once told me: the truth is more important than your pride.
See also:
- Seven books that most influenced me – the Bible was one of them, of course, but this post provides more of the background. For example, that bit about “No one with any brains would go for that stuff” had to be taken to pieces by other authors.
- Bible
- Marx
- Catholic
- Christianity
- Jesus Christ
- Does the Bible say that slavery is wrong? – this post grew out of comments there
Excellent post! Best one yet.
There is no doubt that GOD is real and HE is Amazing!
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I still question many things. I turned away from the church sometime ago. I will admit, I do believe in God – but I’m still trying to figure out what God is. One thing is certain, God is not manifest in churches full of hypocrites, and I do not need to surround myself with gold, people, appearances, opinions, or the guidance of some self appointed preacher who claims to have a higher calling. My conversations with God (if there is one) are private. It is and always will be a personal relationship. (Sometimes I feel like a child full of so many questions, trying to have an adult conversation with Albert Einstein on the Theory of Relativity.) It ain’t gonna work. I probably dont’ have the tools and faculty to fully understand. I accept this and leave it at that.
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On a personal level that is how many people start and grow on the road to be a Christian.
Even though each one of us has a different ‘calling’ etc.
I think the ‘mistake’ many Christians make is that they do
not continue their ‘spiritual growth’.
Its almost as if the ‘insurance policy’ of getting to heaven is enough.
So the key is and here St Paul is useful:
“No, dear brothers and sisters, I am still not all I should be, but I am focusing all my energies on this one thing: Forgetting the past and looking forward to what lies ahead,
I strain to reach the end of the race and receive the prize for which God, through Christ Jesus, is calling us up to heaven.”
And again from Martin Luther King’s least known speeches -but one of my favourites, discussing the same point.
“Unfullfilled Dreams”
http://mlk-kpp01.stanford.edu/index.php/kingpapers/article/unfulfilled_dreams/
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abagond, you wrote:
“I used to be a Marxist – I rarely called myself that back then, partly because Marxism just seemed like common sense to me.”
Oh. In other word, you BELIEVED in an economic system that has been a total failure everywhere it has surfaced, and when you tired of that belief, you shifted your FAITH to a system that is free of all real-world proof of its validity, truth, falsity and failure.
Christianity? Scientology? No difference.
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Yeah, the Bible is a complex and intellectual book. People think its alot of rambelings, but some of the most influential minds in history studied the bible intensley. Like Newton for example and many others have come to find it is indeed an incredible work, whether you believe it or not. There is alot of history and fact behind it moreso than people want to admit.
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The bible is too complex and prophetic for it not to be ultimately written by A HIGHER POWER.
There is no way in the world that a mere human could include an infinity’s worth of information into one small book. Each and every word is significant.
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I don’t really know what god ( or GOD, or G-D , or whatever you like) is. I don’t know if this being exists or not. I learn as I go along, and for now that works.
But in western though, it is a very practical and important work. You cant really get very far without finding allusions and such from it.
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Death penalty for working on Sunday? Not a book for me to live by.
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Great post Abagond. The truth is more important than your pride…
The Bible even states that it would be the humble ands meek that would be drawn to God, not the haughty and the arrogant
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Christianity is simply a manifestation of white superiority. Case in point: the picture you chose to accompany this post.
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EVD – “Christianity” does not have a color.
I know what you are saying; however, in this day and age only the idiots must believe that Jesus was “white”. I mean, lets look at the geography of where he came from.
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To Colorofluv
“in this day and age only the idiots must believe that Jesus was “white”.
Jesus may not have had blond hair or blue eyes, but he was a Jew. So there is no belief in whether he was white or not; HE WAS WHITE. Jewish people are part of the the Caucasian race,
so are Italians, Spanish, Greeks, and Arabs. It’s like looking at Jerry Seinfeld and saying he’s not white.
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I think the point evd is raised in this book by Na’im Akbar,
Breaking the Chains of Psychological Slavery
http://www.naimakbar.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=24&osCsid=grmddchchekqr
The last essay, Racial Religious Imagery and Psychological Confusion, is perhaps the most powerful and controversial essay in the book. According to Dr. Akbar, “Modern students and scholars of the mind have not adequately dealt with the influence of religious symbols and imagery on the thinking of people.” “The assignment of particular characteristics to the Creator is one of the most destructive ideas in the world today,” says Akbar.
“The image of the Creator sets the tone for the potential of creativity in the human sphere.” He goes on to discuss how one portrayed in the image of God begins to feel that his particular physical features have endowed him with automatic claims to divinity, while one not so portrayed develops the idea that the image represented is superior and therefore he is inferior.
Dr. Akbar says, “Perhaps the most disturbing fact is that this Caucasian image of Divinity has become an unconsciously controlling factor in the psychology of African-Americans.”
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Remarkably, monotheistic religions evolved among whites and asians. But in Africa, among blacks, no. Blacks developed belief systems that sought the favor of trees, rocks and animals. Yet another reason explorers from Europe believed they had stumbled on some lower form of life.
Unfortunately, it appears about half the population of Haiti believes in voodoo, and who knows what proportion of Africans are animists?
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Was not Akhenaten and the adoration of ra (the sun). The first recorded attempt we have historically of monotheism, and that was in Egypt, Africa??
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It’s possible Jesus was Black. Moses was spoken of having a Cushite wife(black). And a group of Egyptians and other foreigners mixed with the original Israelites. There was found a tribe of African descendants from the line of Aaron. Their habits matched the Levites habits. Their DNA matched White Jewish Americans,….Also,the Bible mentions Jesus having woolly hair…And oiling the hair has been mentioned as well.
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to no slappz:
i think african “religions” are a little more complex than monothesitic or polytheistic. for examples, many traditional african religions believe that there is one higher being, while there are lesser gods (manifesting forms of trees, animals, water, like you said…), and then ancestors that have died that act as mediums between lesser gods and humans. its kind of both polytheistic and monotheistic. also, something like 90% of Haitians are catholic, but, like many societies consisting mostly of Africans (like African countries that have been colonized), many of them keep their previous beliefs as well, just more diluted forms.
to J:
i think the first recorded idea of monotheism was from Zoroaster (or Zarathustra), in Zoroastrianism which was a Persian belief….although their form of monotheism is disputed, and the era in which Zarathustra lived and formed the religion is also disputed….although it was probably around the 5th century BCE.
to Abagond:
do you think you would have gained the same insight had you read any other religious text?-Bagavad Gita? the Quran? The Classics? The Analects? the Upanishads?
and i think you spent a little too much time trying to decipher ways in which the bible was wrong about the resurrection. maybe you should have spent that time thinking about why your God murders entire villages of people (including innocent animals and children) for simply not worshiping him. or why pedophilia, rape, genocide, or slavery are spoken against nowhere in the bible?
it seems like christians, and the people in this (and the other) thread have spent a good deal of time conversing about the legitimacy of the bible (which i think is nonexistent, but thats not the point…) when we (you) should have been analyzing the nature of this God you worship based on the bible. yes, it says that he is omnipotent, omniscient, and caring, but do his actions show this?
and yes, that photo you posted has white supremacy written all over it. besides the fact that Jesus is white, but NO ONE in the rest of the photo is even tanned.
lol….you couldn’t find something with black women in gigantic church hats? shouting? c’mon….
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Thanks Nell…
And that is why I went for Akhenaten which is less well disputed amongst the scholars
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I wish you would have explained what made you actually accept the resurrection.
I rarely hear from adults who can explain it.
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Believe what you wish and let that be the end of it. Humankind was created to worship, no matter how far back we reach into history there has been some form of worship. Why is there such a need in humans to worship? If we do not worship a deity we worship the creation of our own hands, education, beauty, spouse, children etc.. No matter how evolved we say we are we will find something or someone to worship. Perhaps this need is in us because there really is a being worthy of worship.
Peace and blessings!!
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With regard to:
“Jesus may not have had blond hair or blue eyes, but he was a Jew. So there is no belief in whether he was white or not; HE WAS WHITE. Jewish people are Jewish people are part of the the Caucasian race,so are Italians, Spanish, Greeks, and Arabs. It’s like looking at Jerry Seinfeld and saying he’s not white”.
This is the point that evd was alluding to on ‘white superiority’, viz when we think of Jew we think of ‘Caucasian’/White but fail to realise that
there are:
1. Beta Israel Jews – Ethiopia
2. Bene Israel Jews – India
3. Kaifeng Jews from – China
So we have three different land mass, and the former of the aforesaid groups is probably the oldest of all those descended from Jews/Judaism existingtoday.
Finally a Jew is not a race of people but a religion.
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To J
Well Jesus was supposed to be descended from David, an Israeli Jew, David from Moses, and Moses from Abraham. And Abraham was believed to come from somewhere around Iraq.
So Jesus probably looked something like this.
So it is not white superiority on my part, it actually explains Jesus’s genealogy in the bible.
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“Death penalty for working on Sunday? Not a book for me to live by.”
Sunday…you mean saturday?
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To peanut
I think you miss the point; death for working on any day is retarded.
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Are you kidding me? Judaism created the weekend! That should be reason enough to believe in God, LOL.
I really liked reading this, Abagond. I also came to belief through reading the Bible myself. I was a cradle-Catholic but it just washed over me all those years. I actually read it because my (at the time) atheist boyfriend taunted me on being raised a Christian and being Biblically-illiterate. He was right about that.
After I read it, I just couldn’t get over it, and I left him. LOL. God works in mysterious ways.
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To Black&German
The Bible says not to be “yoked” with unbelievers, so you were just being a good Christian I suppose.
2 Corinthians 6:14: “Do not be unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and lawlessness have in common? What fellowship has light with darkness?”
Apparently “Unbelievers are lawless and full of darkness.” Wait a minute; which countries have the lowest murder, abortion, teen pregnancy, and violent crime rates? Oh yeah the countries with an Atheist majority.
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Whether Jesus manifested Himself as Jewish, African, Asian, is really irrelevant. What race He manifested Himself as in not the question, but the Question Is: Will you accept Him into your life by Faith, and do you believe Him by Faith? It appears that what He said would happen is coming to pass. So many earthquakes, floods, hurricanes, tsunamis in diverse places. Do you want to be with Him in eternity? Or do you want to be with satan in Hell for eternity?
For those intellectuals that dont want to believe: you lose nothing to err on the side of Jesus–if He doesn’t exist-you die.
But if He does, and you choose Him, then at the end of the world, you go to live eternally with Him.
It’s your choice. Choose wisely.
wrestlegod.blogspot.com
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Anne Renee
“Do you want to be with satan in Hell for eternity?”
“For those intellectuals that dont want to believe: you lose nothing to err on the side of Jesus–if He doesn’t exist-you die.”
Unless Allah is God and Muhammad was his prophet, then you to will be with Satan in Hell for all eternity as well.
“It’s your choice. Choose wisely.”
I would rather have my mind opened by wonder then closed by belief. And if god is all powerful and all knowing, then he created me knowing before I was born that I would be an Atheist, and before I was born he knew I would be damned to hell. Why create me in the first place?
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@Ó Dochartaigh for your last post : Amen to that!!!!
God who created everything is not “christian” or “muslim” or “buddhist”, God is… and that’s all. He is everything we see, everything we hear, everything we touch, everything we smell and even and mostly what we do not perceive.
You cannot perceive God just with your brain, that is what makes God, so whatever you are, you are still his/her son or daughter.
So you will not go to hell if you are not “this or that”, because God let you be wathever you chose to be, that is why he created you, because he is in you and in others and as he is in everything and is everything, you can be everything you want,… as him/her.
So, don’t stress, just keep doing good in your life and try your best to reach him, whatever is your way to do it.
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Ó Dochartaigh:
“I would rather have my mind opened by wonder then closed by belief. “
Well, reading the comments on this post and on the one about the Bible and slavery it is pretty clear to me that you do not have to be Christian to have a closed mind. In fact, having a closed mind is a big reason people do NOT become Christian.
Galileo, Descartes, Augustine, Newton and, in fact, most of the great minds of the West were Christian.
Whether you are Christian or atheist or whatever, you believe something. There is some set of beliefs that you are living by. So minds are not opened or closed by belief in and of itself.
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To Maluson
Well I don’t really believe in god, other then the unknown mover, ultimate reality sort of way; kinda like the universe is god. But I’m not sure you can ever meet, or speak to he/she/it. I’m glad you use logic and common sense though, it’s refreshing to hear a Theist that thinks rather than feels.
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“Was Jesus white?” is a post in itself. But three observations in the meantime:
1. No one in those days had American ideas about race – which are a side effect of ocean travel and race-based slavery.
2. Jesus had to be one race or another. But he did not come to save a particular race but the whole human race.
3. Most Jews that North Americans know come from Germany, Poland and Russia. They are probably much whiter looking than the Jews of Palestine in the first century. So instead of saying he looked Jewish it would be much safer to say he looked Palestinian. If I had to choose between Jerry Seinfeld or Osama bin Laden, I would say Jesus looked more like Osama bin Laden.
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To abagond
“it is pretty clear to me that you do not have to be Christian to have a closed mind.”
I’ll rephrase myself; mind is open to reality, not hearsay. If I don’t know something I admit I don’t know. Like why we are hear; rather then not. But for the same reasons I don’t know; you don’t know, you hold no extra knowledge of the unknowns, yet you pretend to. If a persons beliefs get in the way with objective reality; that is when there minds are closed.
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About that picture:
I love Giotto so I picked a Giotto painting. Unfortunately he had a bad habit of painting everyone as if they were from Florence, Italy in the 1300s for some reason.
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To abagond
I’m not sure what your trying to say, if your saying I’m painting the same picture for everyone, I’m not; every person is different. But objective reality is the same no matter what.
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Ó Dochartaigh:
Unless you were brought up by wolves, almost everything you believe is based on hearsay and authority.
That is something I discovered when I was 14: to amuse myself I told everyone the earth is flat. Not because I believed it, but just to see what people would say. To my surprise most people’s belief in Round Earth Theory is based on very questionable grounds. It mostly came down to “everyone says it is round”. Wow. So much for “reality”.
If you are not like that when it comes to “reality” then you need to stop whatever you are doing and go into physics.
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maluson said: “God who created everything is not “christian” or “muslim” or “buddhist”, God is… and that’s all. He is everything we see, everything we hear, everything we touch, everything we smell and even and mostly what we do not perceive.”
isn’t it possible that he is nothing we see, nothing we hear, and nothing we touch? nothing at all?
is this constant need (from many religious individuals, not just you) to expand the definition of god an admission to the fact that the idea of “god” is problematic? and how can it be that your definition (or lack thereof) of “god” still has a male pronoun attached to it?
to the rest of the posts:
why question the “race” of someone whose existence is still disputed (Jesus)?
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@ Island Girl, Black & German and others who liked my post:
Thanks!
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Big Man:
“I wish you would have explained what made you actually accept the resurrection.
I rarely hear from adults who can explain it. “
That is another post.
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To abagond
“Unless you were brought up by wolves, almost everything you believe is based on hearsay and authority.”
No you are wrong, ever since I was child I wanted to know why; why the grass is green, why the sky is blue, and after I got an answer I had to test it, to make sure it was right. Most things in my life don’t take belief just observation. And if your comparing the shape of the earth, to the existence of Jesus, then it is no wonder your such a religious man. I personally have flown around the earth so I know it is round. I have witnessed the water cycle, so I know why the sky is blue, and I have studied chlorophyll and Botany so I know why plants are green. I have pointed a telescope to stars and planets and looked at them. Starred into a microscope and have seen germs.
“If you are not like that when it comes to “reality” then you need to stop whatever you are doing and go into physics.”
I’m working on a PHD in Biology and I’m studying Botany and Physics. Objective reality is what it is my man, not what you want it to be.
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To abagond
@ Island Girl, Black & German and others who liked my post:
Thanks!
I have to say I have enjoyed the post, but never really got any answers to why you think biblical slavery is okay. “Was it just the times?”
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Well Jesus was supposed to be descended from David, an Israeli Jew, David from Moses, and Moses from Abraham. And Abraham was believed to come from somewhere around Iraq.
So Jesus probably looked something like this.
So it is not white superiority on my part, it actually explains Jesus’s genealogy in the bible.
I am afraid this is the White or Euro-centred argument that pre-supposses that since Arabs (ie Caucasoid) are in Iraq today that Arabs would have always existed there, irrespectiveof whether you believe it or not
Archaeologists have already spoken of a non-semitic (ie Arab) that pre-dates any ‘Semetic’ existence in Mesopotamia (Iraq).
Even if we take the argument that the population of Iraq remained constant and did not change. Then we also find Black Iraqis who have lived there and who are still present there now for hundred of years.
Now to move away from all this, whether Abraham originated from the Ur of Chaldees, or somewhere else. Whether David is born from the tribe of Judah etc is no conclusive proof, of the race of these biblical characters.
You had earlier been unequivocal on your position that the Jews and hence Jesus was White.
And if we speaking academically, moving away from the bible. You will find the following asserted by Tacitus, and some other scholars of that time
“[2] Many assure us that the Jews are descended from those Ethiopians…”
http://www.livius.org/am-ao/antisemitism/antisemitism-t.html
And finally you present a picture of Bin Laden to represent Jesus, but by US. standards of race this is not a classification of White. Admittedly anthropologists etc may well delineate him as ‘Caucasian’
The argument is becoming confusing
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And since imagery was produced, here is another slant this time from the BBC, which in a tv programe surmised Jesus looked like:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/tv_and_radio/1243954.stm
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Concerning “Was Jesus white?” and your answer, Abagond, I have to say that, since (like you said)
“no one in those days had American ideas about race”, you can’t really determine whether Jesus was white, black, mixed or any other race. If a culture doesn’t have race as a concept, race doesn’t exist. All we can wonder is whether Jesus would be considered white in OUR world (today), but we all know there’s no definite answer to that, either. What’s white by European standards isn’t white in America.
I do think Jesus skin, hair and eye colour were darker than Renaissance artists imagined him. Your bin Laden analogy is good. However, is bin Laden considered white in America?
Anyone who wants to discuss race of Jesus (or Cleopatra, etc) has to think about these problems (which people rarely do). Because yes, in this case “it was the times” really works. It was the times when race didn’t exist.
As for the post itself, I am not sure what to say. It seems really personal and it’s sometimes difficult to comment on personal posts.
I don’t know. Maybe I just see faith as something really personal.
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There is something about this matter of race not existing, which from an African centred which seems incongruous.
I do not know how best to explain it though.
Irrespective of the concept of race existing or not.
If there was a Jesus, he must have been of a certain constitution ie hair, skin colour, hair texture and so forth.
From this constitution, if they could be derived one would then be able to say he resembled a modern day Iraqi, Slavian, Ugandian, Chinese and so forth, irrespective of his race.
If for example say he resembled a modern day Chinese. then all things being equal, it would be impossible for a
Ugandan to stipulate Jesus looks like them
Moving it along slightly but still on teh same theme.
There are Black African people in the Sudan, who would not even classify themselves as such, but rather as being ‘Arab’.
And this is what is happening today. I wonder how they will be viewed and classified a thousands years from now.?Presumably and probably as ‘completely different’ from those who they are fighting (ie African).
I hope this makes a little sense, since when you start to go into hypotheticals, all sorts of other contradictions can manifest itself in a conversation (as I smile to myself)
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To Nell:
I said in my post that God is everything wee touch, smell etc. AND mostly what we do not perceive, so therefore God is also “nothing” as he is everything. Nothing is included in Everything for me and Vice Versa.
Of course this is just an opinion, my opinion.
An when you talk about the definition of God : i’m using the word “God” because I don’t want to use other terms; I could, but I don’t want to, “God” is already a widely accepted term that help defines quite a lot of things.
I assume that when i talk to someone and I use the word “God” that person already has a little idea about what i’m about to express. If I want to go further, I’ll expand my definitions and use other terms to express how I feel and what I think about creation and our world.
So, once again, this is here my opinion, my thoughts.
You said again that my definition (or lack thereof) of “God” still has a male pronoun attached to it.
If you read again my post I said : “you are still his/her son or daughter”. You want me to add a “it” to that sentence, ok lets go for it. I don’t mind, for me God has no gender, this is not something you can define.
Hope you got my point.
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Thanks for your comments J… I appreciate your perspective and thanks for sharing those links.
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To O Dochartaigh –
You said: “And if god is all powerful and all knowing, then he created me knowing before I was born that I would be an Atheist, and before I was born he knew I would be damned to hell. Why create me in the first place?”
This is the very paradox I was eluding to in an earlier post. Is it free choice or fate? If destiny exists, then choice is only an illusion, right? As new discoveries are made in physics, and perceptions of reality questioned, I would not be surprised that both can exist at the same time. I can only “imagine” the concept. Until I have scientific evidence to support that claim, I take it as faith. Just because I cannot understand this does not make the belief “false”.
Please note that I appreciate all of your posts and enjoy a good conversation or debate. (Hey, lets exercise the mind, right?)
FAITH: Faith in believing there is no God. Faith in believing there is a God. (How to disprove one or the other?) I challenge you to prove to me that there is no God. Now, just how would one do that??? Who’s faith is greater, yours or mine? I believe in a God, you do not. But you have to have Faith in that belief, do you not?
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Sorry, if it is a bit confusing. What I was tryign to say is this: “Your ‘BELIEF’ that there is not God requires Faith in that belief, right?”
thanks…
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Then there was the Resurrection when Jesus rose from the dead. The truth of Christianity rises or falls on that one piece of history. I thought it would take me 30 seconds to show how it could not be true. But 30 seconds turned into 30 minutes then 30 hours then 30 days then 30 months – it became all I could think about – and yet still I failed.
So let me get this straight, Abagond: you wasted 30 months trying to prove a negative – to wit, something DIDN’T happen – and busted your head because to prove a negative is a logical impossibility.
Because you couldn’t prove said negative, this, to you, is PROOF that the opposite of the negative MUST be true…?
Excuse me?
You’re far too smart a man to follow that particular road.
Dude, I’m sorry, but I don’t think you’re being intellectually honest with yourself or with us. I think you became a Christian for good solid emotional reasons having to do with the fact that your wife was one. I’d also bet you were going through some nasty personal shit at the time. This wasnt’ a logical decision, Abagond.
Finally, “Marxist” and “Materialist” are not necessary synonyms, just like being a monothiest doesn’t mean you are necessarily Christian. Marxism is a very particular branch of materialism. So the question in my mind is, where you a Marxist, or is this a posterior gloss you’re putting on things, confusing marxism with materialism?
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I wrote a post about What Was Jesus Really Like?, a while back.
Whether you are Christian or atheist or whatever, you believe something. There is some set of beliefs that you are living by. So minds are not opened or closed by belief in and of itself.
I agree. Most of the atheists I know do believe in something, just not in God. Some are even spiritual or superstitious, strangely enough. Many are staunch socialists or even communists, as well.
I wrote about that paradox, in my post called The Benefits of Religion.
I’m originally from Germany, so I know all about those atheist-majority countries. They are dying out, because it turns out that people who aren’t religious don’t bother reproducing. Surprise, surprise.
And they are joyless places compared to the still-vibrant America. What joy is going to be found in a continent filled with geriatrics? Children and youth bring joy and vitality. Without them you must resign yourself to a genteel decline.
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to Ó Dochartaigh:
i would have to disagree with you that there is an objective reality. physics says one thing, and then quantum physics says something completely different. reality is whatever we make it today, and reality for you is not necessarily reality for me because we are different people. the only “reality” that exists is a relative one.
to maluson:
you used a male pronoun in every other situation than the one you named, that is why i commented on it. you may say that you don’t think HE has a gender, but i think you still harbor many ideas about “god” from religion.
to ColorofLuv:
you cannot prove a negative. when theists can agree on what “god” is, then maybe then someone can disprove the idea. but there isn’t nor has there ever been any type of census on the idea of “god”. (you’ll see in this thread alone, there is the catholic idea, all the way to the idea that “HE is everything and nothing at the same time…”. “god” is whatever the individual that believes in him/her/it wants it to be. because it is a part of your imagination and nothing more).
moreover, you cannot prove something exists, because the idea of existence is problematic. everything that we think that attributes to our “existence” can be legitimately doubted (Descartes?). and since the idea of existence has no real foundation, then it can be “proven” that anything exists. using a theists “logic” for god, i could prove….pretty much anything. that doesn’t mean that everything exists, that means theres fault in the logic.
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“because it turns out that people who aren’t religious don’t bother reproducing. Surprise, surprise.”
I highly disagree with that. Just because someone chooses not to have children, does not mean the love GOD any less.
Also, I admire cultures who respect and cherish
the elderly. They are blessed. They’ve made it. They provide wisdom and knowledge that younger people cannot provide.
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That wasn’t what I was saying, IslandGirl. It was the other way around. The statistics say quite concretely that atheists have a lower birthrate, and that the birthrate increases with religious belief (with the devout having the most children).
Obviously, nuns and priests don’t (usually) have children, and that doesn’t make them atheists. But atheists are less likely to have children.
And you obviously have not lived in a place where the majority of the population are over 50. It’s positively depressing, and children are unwelcome. And what good is their wisdom if there’s no one to share it with?
Also, the elderly are not respect in atheist-majority countries. Respecting elders is a habit that religion, and the associated traditions it brings, inculcates in us. There’s a reason why euthanasia is growing in popularity over there.
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to butterfly squash:
you said that religion “stamped out superstition”. yes, it stamped it out, lynched it, shot it, drowned it, put smallpox it its blankets, forcibly sterilized its women, burned it at the stake, and tortured it to death.
you talk about religion “stamping” these things out as if its the united stated government going in to kill the nazis. thats complete nonsense. for one, religion is a word with no real limitations. what is defined as “superstition”, to me, is the same as religion. to me, and to anyone that isn’t christian….christianity is a “practice resulting from ignorance”. to anyone that isn’t Muslim, Islam is a “practice resulting from ignorance”…..and so on with nearly every religion in world. religion and superstition are the same thing. religion didn’t stamp out superstition, it just stamped out any belief that didn’t align with it.
and two, what you mean to say is “ORGANIZED religion”. and your idea of these organized religions killing off superstition sounds like eurocentrism at its finest. i’m sure all the colonizers and felt as though their religions were “stamping out” silly superstitions from the natives…..and maybe thats why they destroyed hundred year old temples, shrines, religious artifacts and mementos, and even killed those who didn’t want to be converted. thats sick, and how you could talk about that as if it has been something positive is equally sickening.
third, those countries he was referring to are western european countries such as Norway and Finland. i think his point was more for you to look at the statistics and status of theocracies, and countries with a religious majority. and those countries (like the United States, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Israel, most African countries) are usually in either a war, a genocide, or some form of exploitation of other countries, with the highest rates of poverty and illiteracy.
and to the comment about the “still vibrant America”.
…..??? you do know we’re in a war right now. and a recession. and record breaking unemployment rates. with crappier healthcare than our rivals…right? i’m not saying america is a pile of crap, i’m just saying that you probably came as a tourist and didn’t experience the ugly side of the the US.
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to black&german:
i resent your insinuation that atheists are sad individuals that have no respect for elderly and promote euthanasia. i am an atheist, and i have much respect for my elderly. i’ve even done a post about how the elderly are like living history lessons in themselves.
what next? atheists don’t have hearts, lack any sense of morality, and thus should be imprisoned for apostasy?
i am not a sad individual, i might be one of the most positive you’d meet, and as opposed to spending my weekends….i dunno….burning churches and beating up children…whatever it is that you think atheists do…..i actually volunteer to 3 organization, one that helps individuals with AIDS/HIV and i give blood (whenever my hemoglobin is up to par) on a regular basis.
as a side note, i think the promotion of euthanasia may be something thats european, and not necessarily something connected to atheism.
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To colorofluv
“FAITH: Faith in believing there is no God. Faith in believing there is a God.”
Well I suppose I have faith that god does not exist, the same way I have faith Leprechauns, or fairies, or Unicorns don’t exist. But I really don’t think it takes faith, to not believe something when there is a substantial lack of evidence. Would you say it takes faith, to deny that there is a giant panda bear at the center of the earth controlling everything we do?
To butterflysquash
“And they are joyless places compared to the still-vibrant America.”
That is a matter of opinion, some people don’t enjoy murder and violence, and would rather live a quiet peaceful existence.
To Nell
I” would have to disagree with you that there is an objective reality. physics says one thing, and then quantum physics says something completely different.”
Quantum Physics does not change objective reality. No matter what Quantum physics tells us, a serpent still can not talk, a man can’t fit every animal on the planet onto a single boat, and if a man dies for three days, Rigor Mortis sets in and the body decays. I could say oh; because we don’t fully understand how Quantum Physics works, I should accept every crack pot idea that goes against logic and reason. But I think that is wrong, because of the unknowns we must be more skeptical. I realize there are going to be things that completely change our view of reality, but until they are proven then I can not accept them. If we want to advance society to the best of our ability, we must embrace the science and education that best describes reality as we know and can observe it.
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I’m sorry if I confused you by accidentally posting under the wrong name: ButterflySquash is my blog. I live in the United States but am originally from Germany. I apologize for the confusion.
Well, obviously if they killed those who didn’t want to be converted, than they weren’t actually converting anybody. They were just killing off the less cowardly ones (which might have been the point, actually). And I’m not for tearing down culturally important buildings. But do I regret the spread of religion? I’d have to lie to agree with that. I’m grateful every day of my life that I am a Christian.
Is there such a thing as “disorganized religion”? Why should I have to preface religion with “organized”? If it’s not organized, then it’s not religion. It’s just deism. Even if you say you have your “own personal religion”, it wouldn’t be a true religion unless you created a formal structure and set of beliefs to follow.
And do not confuse state-sponsored religion with having a religious majority. The majority of European countries have official state religions and they are all majority-atheist. America has none, but it is majority-deist. And America and Iran are complete opposites. The majority of Americans attend religious services regularly, while the majority of Iranians, Saudi Arabians, etc. do not. Religious participation and belief typically declines in a theocracy. The separation of church and state is a powerful way to protect the church from the state.
America is at war with such countries because we are so different from them, not due to similarity. Americans are more similar to the Philippines, South Korea, or Australia. They go to war against us because we are large, strong, unabashedly Christian, and rapidly expanding in size. I hate to say it, but Muslims have noticed that Europe is dying out, and inhabited by a bunch of retirees. If you want to make a name for yourself, you pick a fight with The Big Guy, not Grandpa.
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i think the promotion of euthanasia may be something thats european, and not necessarily something connected to atheism.
It’s connected to a lack of respect for human life, not atheism. But I’ve observed that moral relativity (which is common among atheists) feeds such a lack of respect.
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And my point about superstition wasn’t about Christianity, specifically. Rather it was about religion, in whatever form. Voodoo, Wicca, tribal faiths, Buddhism, Islam, etc. would all count.
But just believing that the Eucharist can work miracles if you eat it, that the trees contain power, or that poltergeists are real is, for me, superstition and not religion.
One of the defining things about religion is that it has boundaries to what it will accept concerning the supernatural. People without a religion will tend to adopt a hodge-podge of beliefs that may not even be coherent, or obsess about things like aliens and political conspiracies. I may not agree with someone else’s religion, but I do have respect for its logic and philosophy.
Perhaps I am an absolutist, but to me there are two logical states: devoutly religious or atheist. It was a simple choice of one or the other. Either there is a God, and I should devote my life to serving Him. Or there is none, and serving Him, or even considering Him, is a complete waste of my time.
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Thad said:
“So let me get this straight, Abagond: you wasted 30 months trying to prove a negative – to wit, something DIDN’T happen – and busted your head because to prove a negative is a logical impossibility.
Because you couldn’t prove said negative, this, to you, is PROOF that the opposite of the negative MUST be true…?
Excuse me?
You’re far too smart a man to follow that particular road.”
Etc.
I will write a post on the Resurrection. Then you and O.D. and others can better judge how delusional and brainless I am.
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You people who think that you have to understand God in order for Him to exist–are foolishly arrogant! Would He be God if you could understand Him, with your flawed intelligence? You don’t even understand why microscopic things like viruses have the power to kill!! You don’t understand why cancer kills, yet you expect to understand God! To those who accept Him by faith, He reveals only what He has for the believer. To those who don’t believe, well they wallow in their unbelief, never even understanding that they dont know anything! Whether you call God God, Allah, or Whatever, matters not. That’s where you’re wrong. God IS and only a fool would think He doesn’t exist, whatever his “name” is. Arrogant people are forever equating God with the antics of man, who use His “name” in vain. Because “Christians” do things that are evil doesn’t mean there is no God! Because “muslims” do things that are evil doesn’t mean there’s no “Allah”!!
Stop equating religion with God because they are mutually exclusive!! Atheists whole existence is wrapped up in God!
Trying to prove to themselves that there is no God–an atheist cannot be an antheist without God! HOW can you be the antithesis to something that doesnt exist??
God requires us to HUMBLE ourselves, not to humiliate us, but to break through the intellect that He gave us. He blessed us with FREE WILL and most of us cannot handle the gift. As is typical, we humans become arrogant–all the world wars and oppression and hatred attests to it. There is that special group, though, who takes arrogance to the highest level and claims there is no GOD! In all honesty, how then do you explain your existence? A big bang theory? An explosion that miraculously forms all life? Who created the explosion?
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To Anne Renee
“You people who think that you have to understand God in order for Him to exist–are foolishly arrogant! Would He be God if you could understand Him, with your flawed intelligence?”
The fact that you are a christian, says to me, that you think you understand god, and it says that you think you know what god wants. You believe that Jesus is the only way to happiness, and all other ways lead to hell, you breath “arrogance” when you say these things. The people that are “HUMBLE” are the ones that say I don’t know, and guess what; I don’t know!!!
“There is that special group, though, who takes arrogance to the highest level and claims there is no GOD!”
I never claimed there is no god, I just said I do not believe in any god that man has described to me. It is arrogant and unhumble to claim Jesus is the only way to salvation, which you have done.
“In all honesty, how then do you explain your existence? A big bang theory? An explosion that miraculously forms all life? Who created the explosion?”
I could ask who created god? If everything has to have a creation then so does god. But I am “HUMBLE” enough to say I don’t know. Thank you for showing how truly “HUMBLE” you are.
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With regard to:
“You people who think that you have to understand God in order for Him to exist–are foolishly arrogant Would He be God if you could understand Him, with your flawed intelligence!”
There is also another flip side to the coin.
We are also ‘foolishly arrogant’ to think that the Creator is in need of finite beings (ie humans) praising him/her/it, and would be visibly annoyed if people chose not to recognise or praise him/her/it.
I think only a human being would react and think in this way…
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to Ó Dochartaigh;
i would definitely agree that there are no such things as talking serpents, or coming back to life after being dead for three days, however that does not mean that there is an objective reality. take for example color-humans can only see something like 1% of the color spectrum. but to most humans (excluding those with color-blindness), we think we can see the entire spectrum. birds can see a different part of the spectrum, while snakes can see another…having to do with heat and ultraviolet….and fish can see another. so what does green really look like? we don’t know. no one really knows. there is no objective “green”. the same with reality. its complete nonsense that one would believe in virgin births or creationism, but the idea that solid objects are made up of atoms, some of which move, some of which combine with other atoms of other elements…..is also a crazy idea as well. i believe the latter, and chuck the former, but that doesn’t make “reality” any more…..real.
to Black&German:
“when the missionaries arrived, the Africans had the land and the missionaries had the bible. they taught us how to pray with our eyes closed. when we opened them, they had the land and we had the bible.” ~Jomo Kenyatta
right you shouldn’t have to lie about regretting the fact that your religion more an likely contributed more harm to indigenous peoples and people of color. the fact that you’re okay with that speaks volumes about you, though. i don’t get this ……this idea that religious individuals have stronger or better morals than non-religious….when most religious individuals are just like you. excusing and even trying to justify the GENOCIDE that people have done in the name of religion (your religion); being okay with people killing others that refuse to convert to their religion…..?? this is sick. YOU are sick. and you talk down on atheists for supporting euthanasia??? please….you’re about about as morally righteous as John Wayne Gacy….and the same goes for your religion.
by “organized religion” i mean that it is a formal religion with a structure; an orthodox; a formal text; a widely accepted view of a timeline of the religion from the followers; etc. Christianity, Islam, Baha’i, Judaism, etc. are organized religions because they have formal texts, they have a formal text, an acceptance of the leader of the religion along with some prerequisites (such as being saved, being baptized, Bah/Bar mitsvahs…). unorganized religion are the religions of some indigenous peoples of Africa, South and North America, pacific islands, australia and new zealand that have no formal text, no preacher or papacy…not even an idea that their beliefs are a “religion”. and no, that wouldn’t make it “just deism”, that would make it “just THEISM”. deism is atheism with a twist.
and there is no “true religion”. religion is whatever you make it. there is a different definition for religion based on who you ask- and this is not just on an amateur level. not even people who formally study religion (comparative religion) or philosophy have come to a consensus about what “religion” is and what its limitation and boundaries are.
and no, america is not majority “deist”. it is majority THEIST. you’re wrong about Saudi Arabia. they have police that beat people to do the 5 daily prayers after it is blasted over a loud speaker. apostasy, adultery, and homosexuality are all crimes still punishable by death. no, the religiosity has no dimmed at all.
and my comment about religious countries being in wars is more about the fact that they’re at war PERIOD-not who they are at war with. the reasonings behind the wars at irrelevant. war is war. it is destruction, and it is religious countries doing it.
also, i doubt that you’re “observed” any atheists. by your remarks, its likely that all you know about atheists you’ve learned from your pastor thats equally ignorant. i am a moral relativist, however, i don’t live as a relativist. no one really lives as a moral relativist. but, if you think religious individuals believe in objective morality, then maybe you should look up the variety of denominations in christianity alone….not to mention the fact that there are MULTIPLE religions.
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To Nell
“take for example color-humans can only see something like 1% of the color spectrum. but to most humans (excluding those with color-blindness), we think we can see the entire spectrum.”
Well I know I can’t see the entire color spectrum, Objective reality is everything we know and even the things we don’t know, a color is a color regardless how, or even if we can perceive it. There are planets and stars that we have not yet discovered, and even if humans never see them they are still part of objective reality. If it manifests in this universe and can be observed and tested, it is objective reality, regardless if it has been discovered or not it is there being; objective.
In philosophy, an objective fact means a truth that remains true everywhere, independently of human thought or feelings.
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I know what God has already revealed TO ME! Which you don’t know, because He revealed it TO ME! You think you understand all Christians by what you have learned from probably by watching the moral majority or the evangelicals. That speaks of arrogance, to me. I didn’t say that Jesus is the only way, Jesus Himself said and says it. With your free will you can choose to believe or disbelieve. You say that you dont know whether He exists but it’s obvious that you believe that you “know” that He doesn’t. Be honest. But to those who humble themselves, He opens their minds and they are able to see the “proofs” everywhere. In the science you study. In the material world, in the heavens, in the dirt, in your own face! I may be “arrogant” to you and with you, but I’m humble with God and before God. I don’t use my intelligence that is God given to then disprove the One who gave it to me! If you WANT to disbelieve, there will be “proofs” everywhere you turn, because you want to DISBELIEVE! But the minute you humble yourself, in the privacy of your own life, then He opens a door to a reality that you can only marvel at! That’s why you have to trust Him by FAITH! I’m sure you’ve read in the Bible where it says (paraphrase) to those who have, more will be given, and to those who don’t have, even what they think they have will be taken away! You don’t have the intellectual capacity to Understand GOD in His infinite-ness! Otherwise you’re equal with Him! Now when you are able to create a world and a universe, then and only then can you be equal with the Majestic and Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent God Almighty!! wrestlegod.blogspot.com
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The statistics say quite concretely that atheists have a lower birthrate, and that the birthrate increases with religious belief (with the devout having the most children).
Statistics also show that athiests are better educated than diests, on the average. Better educated people generally have less children, for a series of reasons. So you folks are ascribing causality to something which might just be linked.
America is at war with such countries because we are so different from them, not due to similarity.
I’m not aware of the U.S. being at war with any countries right now. It’s illegally occupying tow of them, but it’s installed its own puppet administrations there, so it’s incorrect to say that they are at war with the U.S.
Unless, like many Xtians, you seem to see the current fun ‘n games in the east as a sort of anti-Muslim crusade, this statement makes no sense.
Then you and O.D. and others can better judge how delusional and brainless I am.
I would never qualify you as brainless, Abagond, and I don’t think you’re any more delusional than any of us posting here, myself included. But claiming that one CAN’T prove that God DOESN’T exist as a good reason to believe in his existence simply isn’t very logical.
Anna Renee sez:
You people who think that you have to understand God in order for Him to exist–are foolishly arrogant! Would He be God if you could understand Him, with your flawed intelligence?
Who’s claiming the need to understand God, Renee? Me, the person who says “The universe is a big and confusing place and, hey, anything could indeed be going on out there, we just don’t know?”
Or the person who says “This 3000 year old book of textual fragments written by desert nomads with serious psychological issues is, in factm the literal word of the Creator of the Universe?”
Who’s saying they understand, Renee?
I know what God has already revealed TO ME! Which you don’t know, because He revealed it TO ME!
Way to go in the humility and humbleness department, Renee!!! 😀 😀 😀 😀
Well, guess what Renee? God just kneeled down and whispered in MY ear. She said “Christians and other monotheists don’t have a special blessed relationship to the universe. They are often wrong, often arrogant and – taken together as a group – they have killed and enslaved more people than any other human collective in the history of the world. Be very, very skeptical when it comes to buying their particular brand of snake oil.”
She talked TO ME, Renee! TO ME!!!
(‘Course, it could’ve been the ‘tussin talking to, I guess, but I’m pretty sure it was God.)
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Without stating the obvious…
To answer the question, leaving aside God’s calling . Most people are Christians because of the process of culture (here read historical realities) and it is often the same for why we are Buddhists, Islamic etc
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Thad:
I think I know what Anna Renee means even if she kind of shot herself in the foot:
It seems like many of the commenters here want God to fit into a nice little box of their own choosing. Like God must be for gay rights. Or he must not use desert nomads and old books (despite how well it worked). And when God refuses to fit into that box, they say he cannot be God. Which is arrogant, extremely arrogant, because God cannot be put into a box. God is beyond the understanding of man. The best we can do is to understand God to a very limited degree.
Just because the God of the Bible is not the God that we expected does not mean he is not God. It might just mean we are wrong about God.
Many of the commenters here lack the same intellectual humility that I once lacked (see the last paragraph of the post) and I think that is what Anna Renee is getting at.
Intellectual humility does not mean you accept every lie that comes down the road. That would be humility without intellect. You still have to think for yourself. But you must also be willing to admit you are wrong even if you have built your whole life on that wrong. Like St Augustine and Malcolm X did. Or Buddha, St Paul and St Francis. Or Galileo.
Intellectual pride is an oxymoron.
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To abagond
“the truth is more important than your pride.”
I agree 100%, and I have never claimed to know the truth. But choosing one of many, very old books that claim to know the truth without any real evidence, and that book telling you the only way to know the truth is through faith, that is also not the truth. That is why it is called called faith, and not fact.
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Hey, I don’t know the truth. What bothers me is that when other people claim that they DO, they then often believe that their claims to the truth justify their treating other certain holy-mandated groups of people like sS$&*.
Like God must be for gay rights. Or he must not use desert nomads and old books (despite how well it worked).
How well…? Abagond, you’re traveling perilously close to the idea that slavery was all for the collective good after all.
Just because the God of the Bible is not the God that we expected does not mean he is not God. It might just mean we are wrong about God.
Oh, I agree. The obvious problem with that is that the “God of the Bible” may equally not have any relation to God as she really exists. I mean, why believe that the Bible is any more the ultimate truth than, say, the ingredients lable off a can of Chef Boyardee Ravioli?
Or do you have some rational reason why God couldn’t work through Chef Boyardee as easily as she could work through a band of desert loonies?
Many of the commenters here lack the same intellectual humility that I once lacked (see the last paragraph of the post) and I think that is what Anna Renee is getting at.
So let me get this straight, Abagond: “intellectual humility” means other people must believe in your version of absolute truth? C’mon…. 😀
You say YOU have the answer. I say WE probably don’t. Who’s being more humble here? Who’s being more absolutist?
Intellectual pride is an oxymoron.
And this is the man who, on another thread, argues that ETHNIC pride is good for self-worth and the human soul?
C´mon, Abagond. There’s no logic at all to that position.
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Well, guess what Renee? God just kneeled down and whispered in MY ear. She said “Christians and other monotheists don’t have a special blessed relationship to the universe. They are often wrong, often arrogant and – taken together as a group – they have killed and enslaved more people than any other human collective in the history of the world. Be very, very skeptical when it comes to buying their particular brand of snake oil.”
She talked TO ME, Renee! TO ME!!!
God is a he. Your comment is blasphemy.
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To Anne Renee
“You say that you dont know whether He exists but it’s obvious that you believe that you “know” that He doesn’t.”
Belief and knowing are two separate things, something most believers will never comprehend.
“You don’t have the intellectual capacity to Understand GOD in His infinite-ness!”
Then neither do you, yet you say the bible is the word of god, and you understand his word. If god exists then you are right, humans can not understand he/she/it; that includes the bronze age sheep herders that wrote the bible.
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To Leaveumthinking
“God is a he. Your comment is blasphemy.”
To many religions, god is a female. So your comment is blasphemy.
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God is a he. Your comment is blasphemy.
Prove it. 😀
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Thad
God is a he. Your comment is blasphemy.
Prove it.
Read the Bible and find out for yourself.
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Ó Dochartaigh
To many religions, god is a female. So your comment is blasphemy.
I’m not referring to many religions. I’m referring to Christianity.
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Read the Bible and find out for yourself.
I’ve read the Bible several times, Leaveumthinking. Apparently, I’ve read it while paying closer attention that you, because there’s no mention at all of God’s gender in the Bible other than the attributional male pronouns that a patriarchical people like the Israelis would have used no matter what.
Face it Leaevum: you don’t know what you’re talking about.
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What about the Lord’s Prayer: Our Father who art in heaven, etc?
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Thad:
I understand your point, but your posts indicate as much hostility towards people that are Christians as the people who are Christians and believe their way is the right way and everyone else is wrong. Are you assuming that everyone that believes in God is not intelligent or cannot thinking independently? That makes no sense — everyone has their own beliefs for his or her own personal and societal reasons. My beliefs are based on a lifetime experiences – not what has been preached to me.
I believe there is a higher power (God or the universe), but I also believe everyone should have a choice (which is what I understand God gives to everyone also) to believe or not believe and also to question the people and books that tell us what to believe. I have problems with the way the bible is interpreted and a LOT of problems with the bible-toting “Christians” that are usually very judgmental and close minded.
Some of my worst experiences have been with people who attend church on a regular basis so it has definitely changed my perception of Christianty and going to church. I definitely have a problem with some of the rules (tithing, marriage). On the other hand, there is nothing like going to a great church service and being in the company of people who for that moment, is filled with love and respect. What turns me off is immediately after leaving church, they are back to their evil and judgmental ways.
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I guess it was desert nomads who wrote that prayer – in English, huh?
C’mon, Abagond! The Lord’s Prayer probably isn’t even from Biblical times. It’s from a post-biblical document which cites Mark.
And gee, why would people as profuondly patriarchical as the Greeks, Romans and Jews address the creator of the universe using male pronouns and terms?
That doesn’t prove anything other than the Greeks, Jews and Romans were sexist s%$#heads.
Quote me one thing from the Bible where God unambiguously says “Yes, I am male. Not female. Male. I have a penis.”
I mean, don’t you guys think it’s a bit ridiculous to presume that the Creator has one gender?
And why does a “blasphemer” (as leaveumthinking would call me) have to remind you two good Catholic boys of Genesis 1:27…?
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Seems pretty damned UNambiguous to me.
So you want to tell me again how the Bible tells us that God has a dick, leaveumthinkin…?
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I understand your point, but your posts indicate as much hostility towards people that are Christians as the people who are Christians and believe their way is the right way and everyone else is wrong.
I have no hostility to Christians whatsoever. I AM somewhat hostile to the idea that an emotional, faith-based position is somehow supposed to be understood as rational or people will get butthurt and bawwww.
Believe in whatever the hell you like. Just don’t tell me we have to dilute rationality to accomodate fantasy and wishful thinking.
I most fervently HOPE that there is life after death. Do I have proof of this? No. And neither does anyone else. You either go on faith or you don’t go on anything at all. Trying to bullsh$% yourself and the world that your faith is rational simply cheapens faith and rationality.
Are you assuming that everyone that believes in God is not intelligent or cannot thinking independently?
Not at all. I DO believe, however, that people who feel their pope or pastor has some inner skinny on what God wants are deluding themselves, however.
But let’s put it this way, G-Ball…
I a world run by people like me, anyone would be more than free to express their faith and live by it. They WOULD NOT be able to force other people to live by it. In a world run by the Catholics… Well, the list of people who’d be sent up against the wall is long, but we can start with the gays, for starters.
Who’s more tolerant?
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I have a question
If Jesus and god are one being, and Jesus is god in human form, then why did Jesus call him father; why did Jesus ask himself why he had forsaken himself? If they truly are one being then Jesus is essentially talking to himself and asking himself a question. So is god schizophrenic, does he not know the answers to his own questions?
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1. The Lord’s Prayer is in the Bible – twice. That puts it squarely in Biblical times.
2. The Greeks were sexist, yes, but that did not keep them from worshipping female gods – like Athena. Or Artemis (Diana), who had the biggest temple in the Roman world, one of the seven wonders of the ancient world. These were not minor gods.
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Just an observation
The bible says god is Omniscient and Omnipotent. This is not possible, it is like saying I am a married bachelor. If god knows everything past, present and future then he can not change it, and if he can not change it then he is not all powerful, and if he does change it at the last minute, then he doesn’t really know what is going to happen; which means he is not all knowing. He can be one or the other, but not both.
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Thad,
I do think you have a problem in trying to intellectually explain something that can not be explained that way. Faith is different. It’s a different level. Whether you believe in something, or you don’t. You can’t explain it or prove it. If a person believes in something, that is true to this person. I don’t have any problems with that.
I don’t know if you watched movie “Contact”, but there’s a nice line about the faith and proving God’s existence.
On the other hand, I was raised by atheists, and many people I love are atheists or agnostics- so I understand you. In short, I know what is like. However, I do think you show some hostility to Christians. Maybe that’s not something you feel, but it definitely shows in your writings. Perhaps the fact you live in a very religious country has something to do with it, but it shows. Sometimes, you sound like someone who thinks that smart and educated people are atheists (in a way that atheism makes you smart). That is silly. You are an anthropologist. You should know better. It’s impossible to explain faith intellectually, unless you’re talking about its impact on people and society.
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Thad
God made Adam in HIS image. Adam is a male. Look I could care less what you believe, but I do think you called God a she on purpose to mock Christianity and annoy Anna Renee.
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To Mira
“Sometimes, you sound like someone who thinks that smart and educated people are atheists (in a way that atheism makes you smart). That is silly.”
I agree Atheist are not any smarter, just more logical.
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I agree Atheist are not any smarter, just more logical.
Not necessarily. My mother, for example, says it’s impossible to create universe in such a short time (like explained in the Bible). But when you tell her about the Big Bang and the fact universe (as we know) was created in even shorter time, in terms less then a second, she says “oh yes, that is interesting”.
I mean, I love my mother and I understand what she’s saying, but logic has nothing to do with someone’s beliefs.
The problem here, again, is the fact those people try to explain faith intellectually. It’s impossible. Whether you believe or you don’t. And if you believe, you don’t believe because you read something or heard something that intellectually makes sense- you believe because you do, it’s completely another type of experience. Like feelings. You don’t have feelings towards someone (love, for example) because of intellectual reasons. You simply have those feelings. Different level of experience. It can’t be explained intellectually. Just like science can’t be explained with faith or feelings.
Ugh. My English is not good enough for this kind of conversation, I’m afraid. I can’t find the right words to explain what I’m saying.
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Thad:
The one time in the Bible God took human form he did have a penis – Jesus. And even just as a character in a book, the God of the Bible is clearly a male character, not a female one.
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To Mira
“You don’t have feelings towards someone (love, for example) because of intellectual reasons.”
I think I understand what you are trying say, but I think even love can be explained with biological reasons. People love one another because they become attached to the feelings they give them, you love your mother because she has helped raise you and given you advice on how to live, and when she dies there are no more feelings being shared. So people have this sense of dread and loss when someone they have deep feelings for dies.
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There are logical reasons for everything, but for most things we have not discovered what they are.
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We humans as a race are very young, but through each generation we gain more knowledge of the universe, and god has gotten smaller and smaller. The bible says that when it rains it is god opening up a window in the firmament allowing water to pour through from the heavens above. We know now that there is no firmament and there is no water above it, it rains because of the water cycle. Therefore god has gotten smaller.
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I read the Bible and I grew up in a religious household to become an atheist. Christianity turned me off all other religions as well. I read the Bible, and don’t understand how people can embrace the text and doctrine and then twist it to their own agendas. I still don’t. I tried praying, I kept trying to understand how God was speaking to me, I never heard anything. I still don’t.
As a child the Bible scared the hell out of me. Lazarus rising and the Resurrection was like zombies rising from the dead. Abraham being ordered to kill Isaac made me fear that God would tell my parents to kill me and the angel wouldn’t come in time to save me.
I was raised a Baptist, in that religion, everyone is going to hell anyway.
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I also find it offensive that if someone doesn’t believe in your truth, you must be arrogant. Atheism isn’t about pride, it is about lack of evidence.
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“Jesus may not have had blond hair or blue eyes, but he was a Jew. So there is no belief in whether he was white or not; HE WAS WHITE. Jewish people are part of the the Caucasian race,
so are Italians, Spanish, Greeks, and Arabs. It’s like looking at Jerry Seinfeld and saying he’s not white.”
What about Ethiopian, Libyan, Egyptian, Algerian, Moroccan, and Tunisian Jews? Sammy Davis Junior, Whoopi Goldberg?
Or are only real Jews white, even though according the Bible you believe in, they hail from a place known for Brown people rather than white people?
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“To my surprise most people’s belief in Round Earth Theory is based on very questionable grounds. It mostly came down to “everyone says it is round”. Wow. So much for “reality”.”
There are pictures of the earth that show us this. I don’t know how to do open heart surgery, but I know my body cannot function without a heart. I don’t need to physically see oxygen to know I need it and that without it I will die.
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” I challenge you to prove to me that there is no God. Now, just how would one do that??? Who’s faith is greater, yours or mine? I believe in a God, you do not. But you have to have Faith in that belief, do you not?
”
I don’t have faith, I just have a lack of evidence.
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hey guys “white” as a concept did not exist during Christ time. there was no black or white race. you were roman, babylonian, egyptian, ethipian etc. So dont tell me Christ was “white” or “black” he was a hebrew, period.
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also hebrew is a semitic language which is an afroasiatic language. those are can be traced back to east africa btw. Amharic is a semitic language and that is spoken in ethiopia.
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“I was raised a Baptist, in that religion, everyone is going to hell anyway.”
i was raised baptist, I am just Christian now. I’m sorry you were made to feel that way, thankfully I didn’t get that vibe. I grew up in a loving Church. I however identify simply as Christian. I will say this, some things are difficult to relate to in the bible. But what I’ve learned is that you are supposed to question things. I believe the only way to truly grow and understand the Bible is to ask questions about and there is nothing wrong with that. When I really actually do question and sit and down and think about it and relate the bible to what is going on in the world today it never ceases to amaze me how true and revelevant it really is. Thats my personal belief, I don’t judge people who dont’ share that belief.
The only thing I find silly is when people who dont’ share the same belief or who don’t believe in God think I’m being silly or naive or feel superior. That to me is wrong.
At the end of the day both those who do and do not believe it God were not there to witness the inception of the earth (regardless of what u believe it to be) we didn’t create it and we dont’ grow the gras out of the ground, we don’t make it rain. All we do is live here, that should be humbling to all people because ultimately we really have no control over what goes on around us. If an astroid were to hit the earth right now…guess what. That would be a wrap.
So I think humility is something EVERYONE needs to work on. We weren’t there to witness anything, so we really shouldn’t be claim we’re superior than anyone. Believe what you believe, but no one is better than anyone else.
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Abagond ,if you’re into logic and philosophy you should read “Christian Flew’s” there is a God. He used to be a hardcore atheist just based off of the fact that he felt the concept of a higher power didn’t fit in w/ his philosophical, logical views which were the basis of his life. Then, he changed to believing there is a God just because he found that logically there had to be. If you’re into that stuff you should ook into it. it’s very very asbtract, good though.
If you’re not into science i wouldn’t read it.
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*Antony Flew
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“hey guys “white” as a concept did not exist during Christ time. there was no black or white race. you were roman, babylonian, egyptian, ethipian etc. So dont tell me Christ was “white” or “black” he was a hebrew, period”.
With regard to the aforesaid the Greeks did observe the
historical realities of phenotype (or what we might call today racial differences) as did the Romans after them
This is why the Ethiopians were referred to as the land of the sun burnt people (or a translation close to that) denoting the colour of their skin.
Then we have the Greek classification of ‘Eastern Ethiopian’ extending to India – but this time with the additional reference to skin and hair.
Even the bible says in Jeremiah:
‘Can the Ethiopian change the colour of his skin…’
and in the Song of Solomon…
‘I am Black and comely…’
What was different is the division of humanity into 3 or 5 races, the one drop rule and so forth…
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And also Jesus, is a Jew because he is derived from the tribe of Judah (as the Gospel says)
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“I mean, why believe that the Bible is any more the ultimate truth than, say, the ingredients lable off a can of Chef Boyardee Ravioli? ”
There is something in there that just has a ring to it…..
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“Will you accept Him into your life by Faith, and do you believe Him by Faith? It appears that what He said would happen is coming to pass. So many earthquakes, floods, hurricanes, tsunamis in diverse places. Do you want to be with Him in eternity? Or do you want to be with satan in Hell for eternity?
For those intellectuals that dont want to believe: you lose nothing to err on the side of Jesus–if He doesn’t exist-you die.”
What if there is no eternity and I just lay in the ground?
Why is it God or Satan, nothing else, if you’r Catholic, don’t you have different levels and choices to choose from?
I want a different choice.
———-
“I would rather have my mind opened by wonder then closed by belief. And if god is all powerful and all knowing, then he created me knowing before I was born that I would be an Atheist, and before I was born he knew I would be damned to hell. Why create me in the first place?”
Great point.
———–
“I agree. Most of the atheists I know do believe in something, just not in God. Some are even spiritual or superstitious, strangely enough. Many are staunch socialists or even communists, as well.”
Yes we are all socialist communists, and all christians are capitalists, because as the Bible says,
“Then Jesus said to his disciples, “I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”” Matthew 19:23-24
I’d rather be a socialist or communist than a Christian.
————–
“I’m originally from Germany, so I know all about those atheist-majority countries. They are dying out, because it turns out that people who aren’t religiousdon’t bother reproducing.
Surprise, surprise.
And they are joyless places compared to the still-vibrant America. What joy is going to be found in a continent filled with geriatrics? Children and youth bring joy and vitality. Without them you must resign yourself to a genteel decline.”
I’m an atheist and just had a baby (a child I worked damn hard to get by the way), and what proof do you have that these places are joyless compared to America? This whole post was insulting.
Is believing in birth control a devilish belief? Really?
————
“Respecting elders is a habit that religion, and the associated traditions it brings, inculcates in us. There’s a reason why euthanasia is growing in popularity over there”
Now we hate elderly people? Christians here seem to have no compassion for those who don’t share their beliefs.
————-
“Trying to prove to themselves that there is no God–an atheist cannot be an antheist without God! HOW can you be the antithesis to something that doesnt exist??”
This makes no sense what so ever.
—————
” You think you understand all Christians by what you have learned from probably by watching the moral majority or the evangelicals. That speaks of arrogance, to me.”
I was raised in the church, I’ve read the Bible and I think it is arrogant of you to assume how people have decided to take a different path than yourself.
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God IS! Whether we theorize or argue, whether we are “intellectually gifted” or not, whether we Believe he exists or not! Whether I’m humble before you or not! Never said I would be humble before YOU! God exists when She manifests as Wisdom, or He manifests as Jesus! God IS, whether you say you’re not sure or are confused, whether Im struggling with anger or whether you are, whether I’m trusting in my own understanding or whether you are, whether you’re angry deep down inside at Him or whether a “Christian” disappointed you or a “Muslim” disappointed you or the earth quakes, the floods rage,or whether you lift up satan. God doesn’t love you less if you are confused about His existence, whether you like arguing against Him, whether you take many years to finally come to Him–Her arms are open to YOU! Knowing the Bible is knowing about God but not KNOWING God. You could read about George Washington in your history books, but you never knew him, did you? In order to KNOW God you have to do the one thing you and I hate–humble yourself…..TO HIM!! She doesnt need your humble state of mind, you do in order to receive Him! Then the rest is a journey on which many people are in differing places. God is ready to receive you NO MATTER WHAT you have done, thought, said, believed, tried, IF you turn from what you know in your heart is wrong. God is ready to teach you IF you are ready to receive teaching. If you already know it all, then you don’t really need God, do you?
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to Ó Dochartaigh:
if we don’t know it, how is it reality? have you ever heard of the theory – Solipsism? there is no real line between perception and reality.
to peanut:
have you read any other books by atheists? Anthony Flew is the last person i would read to get an idea of atheism. and also, in the same way that there are Christians who calls themselves Christians, and are anything but…..there are also atheists that call themselves atheists for reasons that not always be genuine. some people need to sell books, others are starved for attention and label themselves anything that they feel will shock people.
i would suggest Bertrand Russell, Richard Dawkins, Julian Baggini, David Mills, Fredrich Nietzsche, Sam Harris and Spinoza. but no one individual or book can sum up atheism because these books about atheism aren’t really about atheism (because atheism isn’t really “about” anything, really), they’re about the plethora of problems with religion and with theology.
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To Nell
“if we don’t know it, how is it reality?”
Do you believe the universe existed before there was life on earth, or before you were born? I think it most certainly did; reality does not rely on our perception. But we don’t have to believe in that reality until it is observed. There are tons of things that are real that have yet been discovered, but that does not mean they do not exist. I am not saying you have a large ego or anything I’m sure your a nice person, but I think it is far to egotistical to believe reality relies on our existence. When the human race becomes extinct, the universe will still be here.
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With regard to the aforesaid the Greeks did observe the
historical realities of phenotype (or what we might call today racial differences) as did the Romans after them
Observing phenotypes is not the same thing as recognizing “race” as a concept. I have brown eyes. My mother has green. So what, you might say? Right. But in a world where races are differentiated based on eye colour, that would make a big deal.
Oh, and one more thing: I think some people can’t tell the difference between atheism and agnosticism. It’s not the same. In short and simple, atheists don’t believe in God, they are sure God doesn’t exist. Agnostics are those who are whether not sure about the God’s existence (they need more proof), or those who believe that it’s impossible to proove God’s existence.
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…The reality does not change. People have always observed the external features of other groups and made classifications.
Obviously people observing phenotype had their own taxonomy in the past, and in the 20th century it is called ‘race’, but to say that it never happened in the past would also be misleading
And this is why the Greeks classified people of Southern India and Ethiopia as being the same people, even if they did not use the term race. And also referred to Ethiopians as having ‘sun-burnt’ skin because they lived close to the sun
This is the point I am making, groups have always noted the differences between themselves and others what differs today is the way we ‘classify’ them.
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To Mira
“It’s not the same. In short and simple, atheists don’t believe in God, they are sure God doesn’t exist. Agnostics are those who are whether not sure about the God’s existence (they need more proof), or those who believe that it’s impossible to proove God’s existence.”
Actually Mira that is a common misconception, a person can be an Agnostic Theist or an Agnostic Atheist.
“Atheists don’t believe in God, they are sure God doesn’t exist.”
I am an Atheist, I don’t believe in god, but I am not sure that he/she/it exists or not. So I am an Agnostic Atheist. In reality everyone is a Agnostic, because it is impossible to know. I have talked to many Christians that say they don’t know for a fact whether god exists, but they believe. So they would be Agnostic Theists.
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Oh, and one more thing: I think some people can’t tell the difference between atheism and agnosticism. It’s not the same. In short and simple, atheists don’t believe in God, they are sure God doesn’t exist. Agnostics are those who are whether not sure about the God’s existence (they need more proof), or those who believe that it’s impossible to proove God’s existence.
Well, a person can be both agnostic and atheist. (A)gnosticism refers to what one thinks we can know about the existence of god(s). It is not about belief, but knowledge. (A)theism is about belief. My SO, for example, is an agnostic atheist, since he does not believe in gods (atheist), and does not believe the existence of gods can ever be known (agnostic). Most atheists are agnostic, although it is usually presumed otherwise.
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To Mira
So in reality everyone has to be an Atheist or a Theist. If someone says I don’t know, they have to believe one way or another. Knowing and Believing are two separate things. Usually if a person says they are Agnostic, and you question them hard enough, they will tell you if they believe or not, regardless if they say they know or not. The people that say they know for a fact god exists are called Gnostics, but these people are deluded, because if they knew for a fact they could prove it, but they can’t.
I hope that made sense. LOL
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To Natasha W
“(A)theism is about belief.”
Well actually Atheism is a lack of belief. If Atheism is a belief then baldness is a hair style. If a child is born and they never are told about god, they are an Atheist, but this is not a belief, it is a lack of belief.
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“Trying to prove to themselves that there is no God–an atheist cannot be an antheist without God! HOW can you be the antithesis to something that doesnt exist??”
I think i get what you’re trying to say. You’re saying that…the concept of there being “no god,” doesn’t exist without the concept of “a god?”
Well, the funny thing is…this is an endless debate that ultimately will never end. People can believe what they want to believe. I don’t think anyone is better than anyone else. I believe in God with all my heart, but I don’t judge people who don’t. One thing that gets me though is I find that people tend to judge Christians just as much as Christians are stereotyped as judging non-believers. I don’t think anyone has the right to make someone feel dumb or inferior for believing in something that they don’t.
– As I said, ultimately really none of us that are here today can take the credit for anything. We can’t even take the credit for our own existence. I believe in God for many reasons. I however do not appreciate being put in a box for my beliefs. I believe in God but that doesn’t mean i’m a “conservative,” it doesn’t mean I have certain political views, it doesn’t even mean I agree w/ every way in which the “church,” and institutionalized racism conducts itself.
One of my bestfriends is atheist and we both respect eachothers’ views. This moral superiority bit really doesn’t help anyone at all. We should all be humbled by the fact that ultimately, actually NONE of us have control over the world. We didn’t make it, we had nothing to do with making it. We didn’t put the stars in the sky and we don’t control anything, so what right do people ever have to think they’re better than anyone else or more logical?? One thing i do think though, is I believe “atheism,” is a school of thought just like anything else. I don’t think its simply believing in nothing. I think its a school of thought like anything else. Just like the people who write history are the victors, history is colored by teh perception of the people writing it.
So how can we say one school of thought is superior to the other. Until you were there to witness the earth being formed in whatever way you believe, you’ll never truly know and that’s the bottom line.
You believe in something. All the “evidence,” we have is colored by perception and what we’ve gathered in terms of our present knowledge and is forever changing, so even science is changing and can be misinterpreted and misunderstood. So no one really knows ,no matter how logical or “religious” you think you are. You’re operating off of faith whether you realize it or not. Whether its the big bang, creationism or whatever, you’re going to believe in something. So the two groups are equal and no one is better or more right than the other.
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I understand what you’re saying. You CAN be both atheist and agnostic at the same time, but atheism and agnosticism are not the same thing.
Or maybe there’s a different view on these issues in your culture. This is interesting. I’ll search for some articles on this matter.
My husband is an agnostic in a way he isn’t sure about the God’s existence.
On the other hand, I noticed a trend of people who claim to be atheists or agnostics, but they are actually against the church, not the religion itself. But that’s another matter.
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Ó Dochartaigh,
I put the parentheses around the “A” in (A)theism as I was referring to both theism and atheism. They are both concerning belief, just one being the lack of belief.
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O doch:
belief:
“something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2.confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
3.confidence; faith; trust: a child’s belief in his parents.
4.a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief. ”
Atheism: “1.the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2.disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings. ”
It is of my opinion that atheism is a belief. It’s the belief of “not believing in the existence of god.” Not that different from other religious beliefs really…
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I understand what you’re saying. You CAN be both atheist and agnostic at the same time, but atheism and agnosticism are not the same thing.
They aren’t — one is about belief, one is about knowledge. Although some use the term “agnostic” to refer to beliefs, it refers to knowledge; “gnosis” is the Greek word for knowledge.
My husband is an agnostic in a way he isn’t sure about the God’s existence.
Does he believe in gods or not? He could be a weak atheist (what most think of as “agnostic”). Just saying one is agnostic doesn’t say whether one believes in gods or not.
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Does he believe in gods or not?
To tell you the truth, I am not sure. He’s not sure. I do think he does believe in something, but he usually responds with: “how could I suppose to know whether God exist or not?” Then I try to explain to him that, like you said, belief and knowledge are not the same thing. One thing I know, is that he isn’t 100% sure that God doesn’t exist, and I don’t think he’d ever say that “there’s nothing”. To him, the fact universe exists is a sign there is something we don’t understand, beyond pure scientific explanations.
I am reading about the “weak atheists” as we speak. I had no idea there was such a thing. The way I was raised (and generally in my culture) atheism was simple: you are sure God doesn’t exist.
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Where are you from Mira?
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I am from Serbia.
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Mira, he’s sounds like an agnostic theist.
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First of all, I have no problems with Christians per se, but I DO have a problem with those Christians who think their beliefs must be protected by law and that said protections needs must impinge on the rights to freedom, justice and the pursuit of happiness of others. There is, for example, no reason in the world to hold back marriage rights from gay and lesbian couples EXCEPT for Christians who believe that their faith must be codified in the laws of nations.
Gays have never once tried to make me say – or not say – anything. Christians are constantly trying to get schools to censor learning and the public expression of ideas. They have, in fact, been doing this for millennia.
So while I have no problems with the Christian faith, I do indeed have problems with said faith when it is used as a cover for ignorance and bigotry, as too often happens these days.
Now, Abagond sez:
Jesus had to be one race or another. But he did not come to save a particular race but the whole human race.
…and yet elsewhere he claims that the fact that Jesus came to Earth as a man “proves” that Jesus is male:
The one time in the Bible God took human form he did have a penis – Jesus. And even just as a character in a book, the God of the Bible is clearly a male character, not a female one.
So according to Abagond, Jesus’ race is flexible and reflects nothing in particular about God, but gender is another ball of wax entirely.
Abagond, why is it that you consistently seem to have problems when authority is not coupled with a penis? 😀 https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/12/01/female-led-relationships/
To me, this is the sort of cloudy thinking that adherence to organized religions and their dogma encourages. Abagond is far from being a stupid man, and yet here in the same discussion he uses two completely antagonistic arguments regarding Christ’s identity. As an anti-racist, he believes that God’s race is infinitely plastic: Jesus could’ve logically come down in any color skin, but had to choose one. Maybe he shot dice. Who knows. As a good Catholic and a sexist, however, Abagond simultaneously believes that God MUST be male because Jesus came to Earth as a boy.
These two beliefs are logically incompatible, but they both hold court in Abagond’s head because of his faith – faith not in God, mind you, but in The Church and its earthly representatives.
It’s this contamination of logic by faith that I object to: the belief that one’s emotional needs must carry as much argumentative weight as simple logic.
Now, regarding the Lord’s Prayer…
We do not know it is from Biblical times. It is quoted by two apostles, but that quotation itself most probably comes from a third document, which we have lost : the “Q Document”. No one knows when said document was written, but the Gospel of Mark, as it is presented in the Bible, was most DEFINITELY not written in Biblical times, being that it is itself based on this other, prior, document.
Just a nit, But I thought that needed cleaning up.
Peanut sez:
This moral superiority bit really doesn’t help anyone at all.
I agree.
Tell you what: you get the T.V. evangelists out of politics and out of non-Christian’s lives and I will happily tone down my aggressive remarks about Christianity. Until then… Well, let’s put it this way: I’ve never heard of a Christian being beaten to death by a band of rampaging queers, at least not in this millenia, so I have a hard time buying the notion that it’s really just six on one side and half-a-dozen on the other.
Ó Dochartaigh’s right when he points out that there’s not one committed atheist in Congress and yet the Senate and House are full of Born Again Christians.
It’s not a level playign field, y’all.
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Thad,
It looks like you have a problem with forcing beliefs on others. I agree with this: nobody should be forced into accepting other people’s beliefs and ways, no matter how popular they are. Whether I share those beliefs is irrelevant. I dislike the idea of TV evangelists and the idea people are (more or less) discouraged to be atheists or agnostics. The way I understand Christian faith, it’s about love, so I try my best to behave that way.
Regarding race vs sex (gender), well, Thad it’s not the same. One IS a biological fact, the other isn’t. However, I understand what you’re talking about.
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With regard to Jesus coming to preach to one race or the humanity.
“Matthew repeatedly depicts Jesus as offering his message and his salvation only to Jews. Jesus tells his disciples to preach only in Jewish villages”
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=SHgiy-k_wsUC&pg=PA189&lpg=PA189&dq=jesus+tells+disciples+to+preach+his+message+to+the+jews&source=bl&ots=AKIdbN7Scn&sig=-oES7ZgP4tiqfXfTMqMlkg1UmbU&hl=en&ei=LzSVS5jBON3NjAfWxo2BCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CBYQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=jesus%20tells%20disciples%20to%20preach%20his%20message%20to%20the%20jews&f=false
This is only from a biblical critique off course
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Mira sez:
One IS a biological fact, the other isn’t.
O really, now? 😀 You need to read some Laqueur.
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“Whether I’m humble before you or not! Never said I would be humble before YOU!”
So God is ok with you being arrogant and condescending to others? No one asked you to be humble, but rather civil in not making assumptions about those who don’t share your beliefs.
“To fear the Lord is to hate evil; I hate pride and arrogance, evil behavior and perverse speech.”-Proverbs 8:13
At least know the Bible of which you practice.
I’m not angry at God, I don’t believe he exists, how can I be angry at someone that’s not there?
I’m not confused either, I’m pretty confident there is no evidence of God. Of course I can’t say with 100% there is no God, I just know that the evidence points to him not being there. Call me an agnostic atheist.
Again, I’m not against anything that I don’t believe is there.
—————
” I think some people can’t tell the difference between atheism and agnosticism.”
You can be an agnostic atheist. You can also be an agnostic theist.
—————
“One thing that gets me though is I find that people tend to judge Christians just as much as Christians are stereotyped as judging non-believers.”
That’s the thing, it isn’t just about not being anti-Christian. Atheists don’t believe in ANY religion. People like me were raised as Christian, so that is what we are comfortable with, I couldn’t quote much from the Koran or Torah. I have no familiarity with those texts.
I can talk about the Bible because I read it as both a Christian and as an atheist.
I don’t operate off of faith, I operate off of facts. The facts as they stand now tell me there is no God.
—————-
“First of all, I have no problems with Christians per se, but I DO have a problem with those Christians who think their beliefs must be protected by law and that said protections needs must impinge on the rights to freedom, justice and the pursuit of happiness of others.”
I agree.
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“One thing that gets me though is I find that people tend to judge Christians just as much as Christians are stereotyped as judging non-believers.”
BS.
Never in U.S. history has a person lost a job or been persecuted for being a Christian.
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I didn’t read all the comments, but I recommend The Case for Christ (by Lee Strobel) for those of you who are trying to determine the validity of the Bible.
It’s a good read.
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“One thing that gets me though is I find that people tend to judge Christians just as much as Christians are stereotyped as judging non-believers.”
Thad, I didn’t say anything about jobs. But you might want to do some more research before you go making assumptions, that’s all i’m going to say.
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and also out of my whole post i made…that’s the only message you took from my post??? my point was you supposed to respect people regardless…so i don’t know what you’re point is…
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again i say…at the end of the day we ultimately don’t control much of anything that goes around us, so people across the earth need to realize this and maybe we’ll all and I’m speaking about myself here start living a bit differently.
Even if you don’t believe in the end times. If we don’t destroy the earth through our behavior, who knows what could happen, an astroid could hit or whatever that’s if we don’t destroy our own planet with pollution first. people should think about these things and stop being so cocky. Dinosaurs…dinosaurs thats all i have to say.
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I think most Blacks choose other religions because those ‘religions’ are viewed as a higher form of worship.
What is referred to as animism and or sacrificing animals is the ‘primitive’ phase in the evolution of religion ie ‘paganism’.
Hence religions like Zoraster, Buddhism, Taoism, Islam are viewed as ‘acceptable’ or at the very least not ‘pagan’
Religions like Judaism, Hinduism and Sikhism which usually denote some form of ethnicity are also ‘acceptable’ but usually many people do not convert because of the ‘ethnic factor’.
As for Blacks becoming Christians that should be obvious and there should be no need for me to go into a reason why.
I think it is the ‘pagan’ element that stop people going back to African based religions, after their Christian upbringing.
Finally I could offer many different reasons why the African continent is either becoming Islamic or Christian in its orientation, but that is for a different topic at different time?
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Thad: “Seriously, Peanut: gays, witches and other like folks are NOT attacking Christians, are NOT calling for their expulsion from civil society, are NOT calling them criminals and worse. Christians are doing this to gays and etc. however.
Mutual respect is not possible in that kind of a situation. When someone cannot even pursue happiness because another person’s religion is in the way, how can they be respectful? And why should they?”
thaddeus, if people are judgemental towards others, whether that be gay or witches, then they’re not respecting you are they? obviously, i’m speaking about both people respecting eachother and if you read my comment i clearly mentioned that Christians and people in general should not judge people. I stated that multiple times so ur comment doesn’t make sense to me. has nothing to do w/ what i said.
i clearly stated as long as no one is hurting anyone its not your place to judge, yet your still harping on things that had nothing to do w/ my comment. also most of those “christians,” that you mentioned can be just as ignorant as anyone else and i don’t condone that behavior in the least. i may not agree w/ somethings, but as long as no one is being hurt its not my place to judge and I ask 4 the same respect in return.
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so there is really nothing else i can say in response to ur comment. people should try to respect people, regardless u can’t really argue w/ that…wats there to argue?
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i clearly stated as long as no one is hurting anyone its not your place to judge, yet your still harping on things that had nothing to do w/ my comment.
But that’s the problem, Peanut: people ARE being hurt. While I agree with you that not every individual Christian is complicit in this, most of the organized Christian religions are.
What you’re saying is that people should be tolerant of others if they are members of an organization which would like to kill or disenfranchise them.
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I just had my love for GOD questioned on a blog in which I won’t visit again.
My love was compared to love for pizza because I disagree with amongst other things, my husband making me sleep on the sofa for refusing sex. I was called a feminist (which nothing is further from the truth) in conservative, Christian clothing.
I was raised in church and have a personal relationship with GOD that NO ONE has the authority to question. I pray and talk to HIM constantly.
Admittedly, I do need to study the Bible more, which I am doing. But I don’t understand why people love to judge and point fingers at you for your “sins” when their sins are evident. This person is the most egotistical, arrogant and conceited person I’ve ever encountered. Every post is about how beautiful she is, or how high her IQ is. Isn’t pride how sin came into existence? Sin started long before Adam and Eve. It started with an angle who was full of pride and vanity.
As I grow in my Christian walk, I never want to be the type of “Christian” who constantly judges people wearing my own sins on my sleeve. If I see someone who I think is needs direction, I will help them without righteous anger or judgement. Isn’t that what GOD would want?
Just wanted to vent and your thoughts are welcome.
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Sorry for all of the typos. I just get so furious with people who are so righteous that they refuse to see their own shortcomings.
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I have a personal relationship with GOD that NO ONE has the authority to question. I pray and talk to HIM constantly.
See, now THAT’S the kind of Christianity I respect, not the Church (of whatever sect) with its mealy-mouthings about how these people are going to hell while these will be saved and, oh, by the way, you too can show Jesus your love by giving us money.
Funny how Christians seem to have trouble with feminism, isn’t it?
Boot your husband upside the head for me, Islandgirl.
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It’s pick and choose. Whatever my sin is isn’t as bad as yours. You’re gay so you’re going to hell but my addition to porn will be forgiven. You’re this, which is far worse than that. You’re a feminist, but I’m arrogant, priderful and egotisical, but YOU are a sinner.
The truth is, “for everyone has sinned and fallen short of the grace of GOD”. Why not try to help each other instead of judgemental, vengeful attacks on another’s love for GOD.
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What is Christianity’s beef with feminism anyhow?
Well, here’s aquote from Chris Hedges, which I agree with:
The radical Christian Right calls for exclusion, cruelty and intolerance in the name of God. Its members do not commit evil for evil’s sake. They commit evil to make a better world. To attain this better world, they believe, some must suffer and be silenced, and at the end of time all those who oppose them must be destroyed. The worst suffering in human history has been carried out by those who preach such grand, utopian visions, those who seek to implant by force their narrow, particular version of goodness. This is true for all doctrines of personal salvation, from Christianity to ethnic nationalism to communism to fascism. Dreams of a universal good create hells of persecution, suffering and slaughter. No human being could ever be virtuous enough to attain such dreams, and the Earth has swallowed millions of hapless victims in the vain pursuit of a new heaven and a new Earth. Ironically, it is idealism that leads radical fundamentalists to strip human beings of their dignity and their sanctity and turn them into abstractions. Yet it is only by holding on to the sanctity of each individual, each human life, only by placing our faith in tiny, unheroic acts of compassion and kindness, that we survive as a community and as individual human beings.
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“I actually read it because my (at the time) atheist boyfriend taunted me on being raised a Christian and being Biblically-illiterate. He was right about that.”
Are you kidding me? And I was taunted for the same exact thing!! Again, why is it alright for some, but not me?
Also, a lot of atheist are more versed on the Bible than most Christians. Does that mean the love GOD? You’ve just proven my point.
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Just received confirmation from a Pastor that this person’s approach to me was totally wrong.
There’s nothing wrong with being passionate for GOD and to love GOD, which regardless of what this person thinks, I do. But attacking people with snarky and petty comments is not the way. On top of that, being sinful in your own right while calling out others on their sins, is not right.
If you are going to challenge someone else’s love for GOD while you’re on your Ivory Tower of judgement, you’d BETTER be on point yourself.
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But that’s the problem, Peanut: people ARE being hurt. While I agree with you that not every individual Christian is complicit in this, most of the organized Christian religions are.
What you’re saying is that people should be tolerant of others if they are members of an organization which would like to kill or disenfranchise them.”
I do not support people who behave that way…”love others are you love yourself…” its a hard thing to do and I’m not perfect at it or even good at it, but that is what my goal is to live by. Although sometimes I can get bitter at people, that is something i need to work on. But i would never want to hurt someone just for doing something or believing differently than me. Unless they’re physically hurting another humang being or someone else, then its not my buisness and I shouldnt’ judge them.
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I do not support people who behave that way…”love others are you love yourself…” its a hard thing to do and I’m not perfect at it or even good at it, but that is what my goal is to live by.
So riddle me this, Peanut. Many blacks judge whites in general because of racism, whether or not this or that white SPECIFICALLY supports racism. It seems to be the consensus of the commentators here that this is more than understandable and, ultimately, OK because it brings whites face-to-face with their crimes.
But when it comes to Christianity, a religion that EASILY has as much to answer for as whiteness in general, we’re supposed to go by individual merit, is that it? We’re supposed to be calm, forgiving and not judge individuals for the crimes of the collectivity?
I happen to agree with you on the “individual merit” and judging thing. What puzzles me, however, is how a band of black activists who routinely decry racism in its many forms and who have no problems in judging whites collectively can end up DEFENDING a religion which has historically been one of the cornerstones of racism.
Now, you might say “But Christians were abolitionists and civil rights activists too”. Yeah, and so were many white liberals. I don’t see white liberals getting a pass on this board because they walked against the tide, so why should Christian liberals?
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I consider myself to be a christian. but there are some parts of the bible i do not follow, or at least don’t translate literally. Particularly regarding homosexuality, i fail to understand why same-sex marriage is condemned by ‘christians.’ The pastor at my church (believe it or not is an old white guy from scotland) is a ‘true’ christian in that he regularly preaches God’s acceptance of ALL people, including homosexuals. He once tried to say how so many people in history and today have tarnished the image of the church and have lost sight of what is really about. Accept God’s message of peace to all people, and he will accept you, that is all you need to know.
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Many blacks judge whites in general because of racism, whether or not this or that white SPECIFICALLY supports racism. It seems to be the consensus of the commentators here that this is more than understandable and, ultimately, OK because it brings whites face-to-face with their crimes.
I certainly don’t do this. Doesn’t make sense. Guilty until proven innocent? Not my M.O. If it were, my SO wouldn’t be my SO.
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Thad,
Funny how Christians seem to have trouble with feminism, isn’t it?
Lots of people, particularly men, seem to have an issue with feminism. I never understood their hostility towards the idea in general. There will always be extremists which people not involved will take as being the norm, but equal rights for men and women sounds good to me.
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Voice of Reason,
I agree.
It is important to let GOD do the judging. Some think they have the authority to judge others when judgement is only reserved for GOD. It is impossible to judge someone else when your sins are evident by GOD.
Too many people are being turned away from GOD because of self-righteous, prideful and bitter people who say they are Christians. If you follow the example of CHRIST, HE was none of these things and HE had every right to be because HE was the ONLY One without sin. Someone who condemns and takes it upon themselves to measure your love for GOD has obviously not read the story of Mary Magdalene and JESUS’S response to those who were taunting her.
Natasha,
Though I’m not a feminist, I too don’t know why people take issue with feminism. Wouldn’t you want equal rights? Why do some women want to be treated as a lesser being?
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Someone who condemns and takes it upon themselves to measure your love for GOD has obviously not read the story of Mary Magdalene and JESUS’S response to those who were taunting her.
The prostitute who was being stoned in the Bible probably wasn’t Mary Magdalene, Islandgirl, though that doesn’t invalidate your point.
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One reason most Christians don’t like feminism, is because they bible says they don’t have equal rights.
Timothy 2: 9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
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“Their Bible”
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O’ Dochartaigh,
I’m not a bible thumper, but let me play Devil’s advocate. I believe your quoting most of the old testament. In the new testament, to show that “old’ school of thought was incorrect, Jesus knealt before Mary in front of the other desciples and began washing her feet. The dicisples were shocked at this. (cant remember what else was said…) but needless to say this was Jesus’ was of showing humility and that woman is not beneath man. (for a man to do this at that time was — blasphemy???)
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1 Corinthians 14
34Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
1 Corinthians 11
5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
This is the New Testament so this law definitely still applies to Christian women. Basically if every Christian women obeyed Biblical the way their supposed to, they would look like, and act like Muslim women.
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No colorofluv that was all the New Testament!
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“if every Christian women obeyed Biblical Law the way their supposed to, they would look like, and act like Muslim women.”
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O’ Dochartaigh my boy, I stand corrected!
son of a ….. (and i actually thought I may have had some weight. Good thing I didn’t ‘double down’ on that one.) DOH!
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In fact the books i just cited, were put in the bible after the four gospels. So they can’t hardly be ignored as “old school thought.”
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…There are some who say those books (The Corinthians) even precede the Gospels which in fact was developed much later, after all the relevant tradition about Christ life had been built up. This is based from teh available documents, so the argument goes
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islandgirl (my reply to your comment from the “Toure on…” post:
It’s fine to use the Bible to back up your ideas, the problem is when you pick and choose to whatever suits you.
Yes, that’s what I meant. Cherry-picking verses. And that some people fall back on the Bible when they have no logical explanation for their views.
I’ve tried to have a discussion on that blog and when I didn’t agree, the comments became personal. I won’t be back there.
I saw that exchange when I visited the blog. Pretty interesting. Someone disagrees, they are a feminist. Funny, you are one of the last people I would ever think of as a feminist in the common usage of the word. But I think the author is pretty narcissistic (which she claims is a female trait, ha!), thus anyone who doesn’t say that her writing is anything less than wonderful is clearly deluded.
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Natasha,
Thank you for your response!
Yes, we are in total agreement and I knew what you meant. Cherry-picking to suit you are your arguement is not the right approach. The issue is that some people will try to berate someone, their beliefs or their love for GOD, but they downplay their flaws. When you judge, make sure that you are on point.
It is funny because I am not a feminist and no one has ever considered me one. I just think that women are equal and should be respected and regarded.
After the last post, I have not been back. So, I don’t know the rebuttal or care to know. I wondered if anyone else read the exchange. And I assumed that it would be deleted. So I expressed my views here since it’s on topic.
Narcissism is NOT a female trait. None of the other women commenters here have never come across as narcissistic. In fact, I’ve rarely come across any women IRL who are so. That’s just an excuse for behavior. There is nothing wrong with acknowleging your positive traits, but when it’s done over and over and over…. again, that’s pure narcissism.
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I meant “you and your arguement”.
Thanks again Natasha for your perspective.
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After reading the reception you received in regards to your views, I must say I was surprised at the vehement responses this elicited.
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I just think that women are equal and should be respected and regarded.
A feminist, in other words.
That’s the basic definition, Islandgirl.
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Herneith,
Do you mean vehement responses toward me and my views? Or the responses posted here?
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@islandgirl:
I mean the responses over on that blog you were referring to. You were being attacked for the difference of opinion you had. For someone who professes to be a Christian, they should not have responded in that manner. One Christian is not better than another because they do not know the bible inside out, front to back. I have my own beliefs which I don’t impose on others. I do-not judge others on their beliefs as that is personal and depends on their own relationship to whatever diety or lack of one they cleave to. However, I don”t like it when others are derided espeacilly by co-religionists, regardless of the sect. A difference in opinion is one thing, but to deride someone for that difference is another. Based upon your other posts, I have found you to be respectful of others whether you agree with them or not. There was no call to respond to you in that way on that blog. One of the few things I do-not debate, personally, is religion or its opposite atheism. However, I have gleaned from Jesus’s message, magnamity and consideration for your fellow man. How you arrive at this is based upon your personal relationship with god. I don’t think god or whatever higher being you worship, cares if you know that particular religious book inside and out as long as you get the message.
Being humble seems to be a common thread throughout many religions. To bad, many who profess religion have not gotten this message. Personally, I don’t care what religion a person is as long as they treat other people with respect and dignity. Browbeating people when they disagree with you proves only one thing; they profess being religous but lack the defining element of religion which is spirituality. The two are not mutually exclusive. I hope for the best for you on your continued journey. Don’t let anyone deter you!
As for feminists, there are many who are Christian, Muslim Buddhists, Ba’hai etc. Nothing wrong with that. It should not be taken as an insult even if the person levelling it meant it to be so. Calling people names which they percieve to be insults, are nothing but diversionary tactics. You know who you are, that is all that matters.
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Wow, Herneith, I have not been back to that blog and did not know that all of that was going on. I really do appreciate your thoughtful comment.
Herneith, that is what turns people away from Christianity – imperfect, judgemental and hostile people who call themselves Christians.
You can know the Bible backwards and forward, but if you don’t apply the principles in your life, what’s the point? The Golden Rule of the Bible is to do onto others as you’ve done to you. Those who are free of sin cast the first stone. And the origin of all sin is excessive pride. Those are the traits that some of them are displaying but yet attack me for in essence, not understanding some of the degrading things discussed toward women.
Also, I’ve know atheisists who know the Bible moreso than most Christians. So does that mean that they love GOD because they can recite versus? I don’t think so. GOD is in the heart.
I agree, a difference of opinion is one thing, but personal attacks are all together different. And everyone on the blog are of the same mind. There is no varing of opinion so of coarse they are going to agree and attack.
Yes, being humble is a common theme in most religions, especially Christian. The origin of sin is based on extreme pride and the author has admitted to being very vain. Which is fine because that is for GOD to judge, but to minimize that and magnifiy someone else’s “shortcoming” is simply wrong.
Thank you for your encouragement, reading it brough tears to my eyes. You’re right, everyone’s personal relationship with GOD is just that – personal. And I do know who I am but better yet, GOD knows who I am.
No virtual blogger will make me believe otherwise.
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That’s the spirit!
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Well what can I say………….. I’m not part of any religion, heck I’m not even an atheist. (Atheism is just like any other religion to me!)
I can’t stand fundamentalists (Religious or Atheist!)
As for feminism, It’s a crock of s***!
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Thad,
A feminist, in other words.
That’s the basic definition, Islandgirl.
Yes. And I’m a feminist in that sense. Although the word has morphed over time to mean, to use your own words, “castrating, men-hating, repressed dyk$ b¨&*#,” which I’m most certainly not. And I think that’s what that blogger was trying to imply by calling islandgirl a “feminist.”
It’s quite ironic that the author doesn’t see how her blog is exactly the same as many extremist feminist blogs. If one were to swap the genders and make the same proclamations, they would be accused of being the devil him/herself. But her views are somehow “natural” and “God’s way.” Lol.
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Natasha,
You’re right. If that is the basic definition, according to Thad, than I am too a feminist. Most reasonable people are, then.
Yes, most people know that the implication of “feminist” is the extreme, man-hating women that are always protesting something. Think Gloria Alfred. I love men, but to give them the power to control me and my life to the point that I would let him make me sleep on the sofa for refusing sex, and worship him like a superior being, that’s appalling. Sorry.
The blog is very extremist and, like you said, a different side of the same token.
Her views are “natural” and “GOD’S way”, because that is what she believes and she is always right.
Her words didn’t bother me so much as the approach. The most common reason why people avoid Christianity is because of “hypocrites”. They’ve encountered too many “chrisitans” like this who are very hostile and judgemental and hypocritical. Argueing the Bible for content is one thing, but attacking my intelligence (since she has a ‘genius’ level IQ according to her) and questioning my love for GOD. A total contradiction to how CHRIST lived. CHRIST preached reaching others through love.
The more that I think about this, it is almost laughable and I don’t take her seriously. Obviously, there is more to this story and her and doesn’t add up.
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Interesting how Abagond has accused me of articulating the “darkies should be thankful” thesis for saying that I believe that the Enlightenment has brought some good to the world, for all its measureable short-comings.
And yet here we have a half-dozen or more black commentators talking about how Christianity has brought good to the world – led by Abagond, I might add – and no one has brought up “darkies should be thankful”.
Why is this? Christianity’s record on slavery and rcism certainly isn’t better than the Enlightenments.
Serious question. Would you like to tackle this one, Abagond?
Why does religion get a pass from you but philosophy no?
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I second that question.^ ^ ^ ^
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islandgirl,
You’re right. If that is the basic definition, according to Thad, than I am too a feminist. Most reasonable people are, then.
Abagond sure isn’t. 😉
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Natasha,
Gotcha’;)
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Bible is just a collection of myths, folklore and oral tradition. It’s actually a marketing manual: it consists of bits that people thought would sell the product best, were chosen in the bible.
Life, universe and everything seem to be working quite nicely without a supreme being, thank you.
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Great post!
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I have to say Abagond I am very surprised you let this one go as it seems to echo a valid criticism of this post.
You of all people I would have thought should be able to put your undoubted Christian Catholic views aside and answer honestly on this. Or have I missed another post where this has occurred?
I personal, though brought up Christian, do not retain or hold onto any such views. Bearing in mind the knowledge I’ve uncovered, over the years, about its Egyptian (African) derived origins. And the many plagiarisms taken directly form Egyptian teachings and religions. I could never now take anything about Christianity or the Bible too seriously.
And NO! This does not mean I am an atheist or agnostic. I am neither of those!!! I do believe in a Creator, God, or All That Is. But this is based in a belief in the spirituality of all things which includes all beings.
Its clear the Bible has been purposely constructed to fit the needs of a specific group of people and those people were clearly supposed to be reflected in the teachings of Christianity. As I have already stated there is a strong resonance from the mis-appropriation of deeply held spiritual beliefs found in Egyptian religions. Which preceded Christianity by 1000’s of years.
Is it any wonder that so many Black people of African descent should cling to its teachings so forcefully? Yourself included Abagond.
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Opps!!! You may need to fix this Abagond!!!
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This is a good introduction to how Christianity was constructed. I think you need another post on:
“Why I should not be a Christian”!!!
Its not a bad attempt at debunking the plagiarism involved in the construction of the religion we call Christianity. FAR TOO MANY PEOPLE are totally ignorant of this FACT!!
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Nearly a year later… However @Kwamia seriously deserves a standing ovation. Thank you.
I would also like to point out ethnocentricism, religious thoughts/books are like that. The amount of times Buddhism has been confused by atheists
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…Cont: sorry western atheists getting Buddhism wrong is hilarious. Buddhist thought is ‘atheistic’ because in many eastern religions God is not neccessary because Time is not linear but circular & everlasting. So there’s no beginning & no end.
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Nearly two years later..!.
But thank you Ann for your appreciative comment!
Would you believe your comment came the day after my birthday!
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This doesn’t explain why you became a Christian. It tells how you read the Bible and somehow consciously decided to drink the Kool Aid, without the application of any critical thinking skills.
Why do you believe the stories in the Bible to be true and not simply made up mythology? Mythology has its place in culture. Mythology can inspire and teach ethics, right from wrong, etc. So again, why are you choosing to believe that the stories in the Bible are true?
Moreover, why are you “white washing” and “color treating” Christianity’s long history with oppression and its anti-freedom of religion stance?
The Doctrine of Discovery, anyone?
The Missionary Agenda, anyone?
Going into sovereign countries as a sort of “soft invader” to get them to reject their own indigenous traditions and religions for white washed one from the Middle East, anyone?
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@ Why
I have read plenty of mythology, not just the Greek and Roman sort but even the White American and Red Chinese kind that tries to pass itself off as history but at bottom is just ideological propaganda. That is what I expected the Bible to be pretty much. But the Bible did not turn out to be like that at all, not when you read it all the way through (I had read parts of it before, like Genesis, Job and Matthew). It became even more striking after I read the Koran a few years later.
Christianity’s part in destroying cultures and spreading white rule, that is troubling, I agree. I have not completely worked through it. The Catholic Church has scandals aplenty even apart from that. The short answer is that you cannot judge a religion by those who practise it because then all religion and all non-religion will be found wanting – yet you have to believe SOMETHING, even if it is atheism.
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@ Abagond
I am sorry Abagond but surely you are capable of a more logical rationalization than this?:
If you can’t judge a religion by those who practice it then by whom can you judge it by? How on earth is it possible to separate the two?
If it is found wanting then it is found wanting….!
This is classic cognitive dissonance if there is such a thing!
Yes…We all believe something even those who profess no beliefs regardless of what they wish to call themselves are subscribing to identifiable (when analyzed) sets of some belief system. It would be impossible to have a human experience otherwise. No one exists outside of a cultural vacuum! Unless they have been raised on a different planet!
I must admit I don’t envy you in your attempts to resolve your strongly held beliefs in Christianity – especially as it translates to the Catholic church – with some of your more eloquently expressed views on “whiteness” and “racism”
Having said this…you are probably not alone in nurturing and sustaining such conflicting and opposing beliefs.
I think it is long overdue as a future post of yours….
.
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@ Kwamla
It does sound postworthy, especially in light of some recent posts.
To pick up on what Peanut said, an important insight is that what MANY whites practise is a FAKE Christianity or one that is lip service at best. A true Christian would not be racist. Quite the opposite.
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Can we define who EXACTLY is a Christian?
Is it someone that simply believes that the Christ existed and/or “believes” in the tenets (doctrines) of the so-called Christian religion – whatever that is – whatever that means – or – does being a Christian mean being like Christ – having the SAME anointing/Spirit, relationship with the Creator that he possessed???
Abagond?
Kwamla?
anyone?
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That’s anyone … except Sam!
lol
😉
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Abagond, as someone who is trying to reconcile my beliefs, I’d like to read that post.
I find St. Paul to be full of contradictions. He basically frees himself and men from following the Law: no need for circumcision, but continues to oppress women because of the Law.
Sometimes not even because of the Law but for truly ridiculous logic: because Adam was formed first, then Eve or even worse because “Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.”
I usually just chalk it up to sexism being so imbedded in Jewish society that it was too hard for him to give it up.
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“Christianity’s part in destroying cultures and spreading white rule, that is troubling, I agree. I have not completely worked through it. The Catholic Church has scandals aplenty even apart from that. The short answer is that you cannot judge a religion by those who practise it because then all religion and all non-religion will be found wanting – yet you have to believe SOMETHING, even if it is atheism.”
Abagond. You’re not quite grokking what I’m getting at. Most people don’t because most people are not used to a particular religion being deconstructed based on its ideology. Most people only hear deconstruction of the people who make up the religion; such as when Catholic priests came under public scrutiny.
I don’t give a flying fig about how individual Christians are behaving. I am talking here about the very ideology of the Abrahamic traditions.
Regardless of whether or not the majority of Christians through history were nice non-racist people or not, is not the point.
There is a problem with the extreme monotheism of the middle eastern Abrahamic faiths because that idealogy is based on making you “one true god” the only god for the entire world!
There is a reason why hundreds, thousands even, religions evolved around the world. The traditions, beliefs, rituals, etc all reflect those unique environments and cultures and address the needs of the people born into them.
Abrahamic monotheism says: No! You are all wrong and “the God of Abraham is your God too”.
The god of Abraham is just that – the god of Abraham.
The stories, the environment, the language, the culture, the traditions of Abraham are completely foreign and alien to the people around the world WHO HAVE THEIR OWN PROPHETS, SAGES, GODS AND TRADITIONS.
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@ Matari
“…Can we define who EXACTLY is a Christian?…”
Why do you think this distinction is important to know?
From my point of view anyone who accepts or has been influenced by the doctrines of Christianity as written in any one of numerous versions of the Bible. In Western cultural societies this would invariably mean EVERYONE.
You would need to consciously state your beliefs as “something else” and be able to state your different influences; for example: as someone stating they are Muslim or Buddhist with their corresponding respective beliefs.
This means EVERYONE by default can be described as Christian influenced because this is the default religious belief system in ALL Western Societies. So even self declared Atheists would need to consciously state how their own acquired views differed to be truly considered to hold this alternative “religious” viewpoint.
@ Abagond & Peanut
Compare the distinctions you both highlight about who should be considered a “true Christian” to those we might make of who should be considered a “Racist”
We could say a white person who espouses views and support for the KKK can be considered a “true racist”; whereas someone who simply believes (as Randy does) that ALL peoples are just as capable of exercising racism. Such a person can not really be considered a “true racist” could they? (No doubt something Randy would probably agree with!)
Would you also agree with this equally dubious distinction?
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I think this is a reasonable observation applying to most comments made here.
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~Kwamla
“Why do you think this distinction is important to know?
From my point of view anyone who accepts or has been influenced by the doctrines of Christianity as written in any one of numerous versions of the Bible. In Western cultural societies this would invariably mean EVERYONE.”
.
**********************
.
My sense of what the true essence of a so-called Christian should be is so very far away from the watered down definition in use today.
I understand the word “Christian” to mean – definitively: a person who is like Christ, or Christ-like.
Christ means “anointed” or “anointing.” As in possessing the SAME Spirit of Jesus the Christ, (whether he be the real, mythical, imagined or whatever) son of God.
What is/was the son’s claim?
That he and the Creator (Father) are ONE.
That he came to bring LIGHT (truth) to the world.
That he does whatever the Creator gives him to do, even dying for the Creator’s glory, etc.
That his people (sheep) hear his voice and do his instructions.
That he was NOT a part of the world system, but AGAINST it.
That his followers would have to carry their own specific crosses (suffer).
That his followers would have to forsake ALL, even family, for the sake of the Anointing
And so on.
Clearly, these few above mentioned requirements would disqualify nearly all church going folks, and other BELIEVERS.
Most “church” folks and their pastors, ministers, priests and rabbis ARE very involved in the world’s EVIL system.
They are forsaking little to nothing (or no one) for the sake of the Kingdom of God.
I could probably write non-stop for 365 days just outlining what’s wrong, appalling, unacceptable and outright DEMONIC within the world’s CHRISTIAN organization!
Kwamla, to say that EVERYONE, more or less, is a Christian is like saying that everyone is a RACIST. If we both know the latter to be false, then we should also know that the former is false as well. The same argument you’ve used against everyone becoming a RACIST applies for everyone being a Christian.
It’s almost like you’re saying that ANYONE WHO HAS HEARD – and tolerates – the biblical, historical, mythical, spiritual, original, modified/revised (or whatever) Jesus Christ qualifies as a Christian. We’ll have to agree to disagree on that.
(It’s interesting that the Bible says that God will call his people by a NEW NAME – perhaps because today “CHRISTIAN” means next to nothing…)
Words (labels) are funny sometimes. It’s a wonder that most people who speak English (in my/our case) can communicate at all, with all the doublespeak, dubious, vague, deliberately confusing connotations society have going on today.
Perhaps we’d all listen to each other better if we spoke less?
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I’m kinda new to this site, & never posted here before, but am wondering if someone might have an answer to this question: when did the term ‘Christian’ become synonymous with ‘fundamentalists’? I never heard of it before recent years, & it does irk me- because ALL of the denominations that place ‘Jesus Christ’ as the focus are Christians. Whether you’re a Catholic, Methodist, Presbyterian, etc. etc., believing in Jesus makes you a Christian.
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To my knowledge, it isn’t. Everyone is aware that there are different schools of thought and belief within Christianity.
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The word fundamentalist is irksome to me. People that are God fearing bible believing followers are called fundamentalist. It has negative undertones.
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“Fundamentalist” is any field means someone who believes in the fundamental tenets or beliefs of that particular field. Most people who use the term today are themselves “fundamentalist ignoramuses” and have no real idea what the term even means.
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@ KIng: I agree with the term definition of this term the way you defined it. In the last couple of decades this term has been used. I guess it is just semantics that throw me off. Yes,I agree with you that most fundamentalist that use the term are ignoramuses.
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*I agree with the definition of this term*
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It angers me personally that during times of slavery the founding fathers of this country considered themselves Christians,yet they were complicit in the dehumanizing of other human beings. They used certain passages in the Bible to enslave black people.
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“Yes,I agree with you that most fundamentalist that use the term are ignoramuses.”
That may be true, but I was referring to people who describe others both in Christianity and Islam as “fundamentalists” while having a very shallow understanding of either religion. If you aren’t studied in the religion, then you are not qualified to pontificate on what is and is not fundamental to it.
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@Mary: where you talked about using certain passages- from my experiences, the same holds true today- those who pick out passages to back up their viewpoints or approaches- while at the same time ‘conveniently’ skipping passages that aren’t in tune with what they personally think, want, or do.
@ King: re: your first response- I’ve heard a lot of flak about people of various Christian denominations not being ‘real’ Christians, or even being ‘sinners.’ A couple of examples: Christian denominations that believe in baptizing infants, and celebrate Easter.
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@sunkist123: Yes, people want to cherry pick certain passages without reading the whole text and this to me is problematic.
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This is just my personal thought. It is crazy to me how in Christianity their are so many interpretations of the Bible and so much confusion and bigotry abound. Even among the so called believers of God’s word. Their is bigotry among so called Christians.
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And last but not least the Westboro Baptist Church with it’s extreme ideologies,give Christianity a bad name and cause Jesus Christ to be spoken badly about.
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@ Matari
I am saying that everyone typically raised in Western society is influenced by the dominant religion – which is Christianity.
But as we all know it is not the only way to envisage God or our link, connection to a Creator. Unless you are brought up in say a Muslim or Buddhist household you would never know this.
But it is also true that we do not need ANY RELIGION to feel or celebrate a “Spiritual” connection. Which is all really what religion allows us to do. This is why you find different cultures and peoples around the world practising their different “spiritual” or religious beliefs systems.
But of course…. when you are subjected to the whole structure of the physical, emotional and educational doctrine that RELIGION in our societies undoubtedly plays. It’s difficult to think of this in any other way other than as a “natural” part of life. We just accept it as such. We don’t question it. Why should or would we?
This is why Matari you might feel to pose the question:
“…Can we define who EXACTLY is a Christian?…”
And I might equally pose: Why should it matter?
Most of the comments in this post would not even think to challenge that. This is because of the status and acceptance religion (and specifically Christ-like religion) has within a society like the US.
Its accepted as a way…a part of life…But just like Racism its not “Natural” as a part of our life and it certainly doesn’t have to play an integral part of our life. Certainly not in the form of the CHRIST-like doctrine that is so deeply embedded within American culture and society.
But I know that this is probably going to be difficult for you (and probably most other people commenting here) to accept.
So lets say say I agree with you…about your definition of Christ-like. Very few, if any people, seem able to attain this. But why is that?
Its the belief that IT IS POSSIBLE to be truly Christ-like which perpetuates the belief in Christ and the Christian religion (in what ever form) itself. No one questions this otherwise unobtainable goal. It then literally does become a question of FAITH!
Racism too is a bit like this. It requires a belief or a faith that this is a “natural” system within which we basically have to find a way to “get by” or make the most of our lives.
In the same way everyone is influenced by the doctrine of Racism so too everyone is influenced by the Christian religious doctrine. But we do know that not everyone is influenced in the same way. The affects are not the same for everyone.
We can analyse racism and understand that it could not apply to everyone. And in the same way we can do this for “Christ-like consciousness” and see (as you have done) that it could surely not apply to everyone.
But the bigger question you still would have to pose is: Who does it apply to?
However, I would still pose the same question: Why should it matter?
The question is do you see this?
We can still agree to differ….
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I am a Christian but I am not affiliated with any religion as of right now. I do believe in the King James’ version of the Bible. I just don’t like the Fundamentalists at all. I think Fundamentalists take the Bible way too seriously and interpret it to their own uses to frighten people to think the way they think. Trust me, I have been around these people enough to know about them; I went to a Christian school run by Fundamentalist Baptists who hated others who believed differently from them. I haven’t gone to a Baptist Church in years.
My mother is a Catholic but I don’t necessarily believe in Catholicism because I disagree with some of their doctrine regarding Mary etc. She left the Catholic Church and went to other religions until she went back to her Catholic roots. I wouldn’t go into specifics into what I disagree with right now.
My father is a 7th Day Adventist and tried to convert me to the religion when I was very little but it didn’t work since my mother disagreed with 7th Day Adventism. And it didn’t help that my parents didn’t get along at the time and were split up.
Yes, I am still a Protestant/Baptist in my beliefs but I don’t practice the religion much.
@Mary
The Founding Fathers weren’t Christians, Ben Franklin was an atheist and John Adams wasn’t big on religion either. Out of all of those White men ratifying the Constitution, only about twenty one of them were true Christians. This doesn’t include George Washington, Thomas Jefferson etc. Our Founding Fathers were actually free thinkers and the intellectuals of their day. And the religions they practiced, Deism, Unitarianism weren’t exactly Christian religions either. In fact in 1796 states that America is not a Christian nation and wasn’t founded on Christianity.
Plus the Founding Fathers were rapists who owned slaves and raped their female slaves. They felt they were superior because they were White men and tried as hard as they can to take land from Native Americans.
And that is in no way, Christian to me.
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@In 1796, the Treaty of Tripoli.
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93/93 if i didn’t get kicked out of the oto
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@ Adeen
Again, this is a problem with words and definitions. I think what you probably are getting at is that you don’t like “The Fundamentalist Movement” as it has been self-described by a certain group of people — most recently people like Gerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts, Ralph Reed, George W. Bush, and most of the other popular televangelists.
I think most people don’t agree with or like these guys but they are self-described as “Fundamentalists” however the word does not really apply only to them. Fundamentalism means someone who believes in the fundamentals of a given movement or system and most people don’t have a problem with that. I wish there was another word that could be used for the crackpots.
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@King
Thank you and I don’t like the Fundamentalist Movement at all. I think Fundamentalism takes certain Biblical passages way too seriously and leave out others for their own purposes. Fundamentalism Christianity in my opinion is very dangerous. Trust me, I have been around it. Have you heard of the Westboro Baptist Church? Now there are looney tunes right there.
Nice to hear from you again. Where have you been? Anyways I still believe in the Bible and God.
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The “Fundamentalist Movement” is really a political movement cloaked in religion. It’s true end goal is about controlling people’s behavior by the sword of government rather than advocating a choice. Atheistic Humanism has the same exact same goal from their perspective.
Again, I’ll make the distinction – Fundamentalist Christians, by proper definition, should just be Christians who believe in the fundamentals of Christianity. Unless you feel that the Christian fundamentals themselves are dangerous then you are probably referring the the modern “Fundamentalist Movement.”
Yeah, the Westboro Baptist Church are a bunch of hateful crazies. But if you look into them, it’s only like 14 people… complete Wackos.
I’ve been lurking because work has been kicking my butt, so I just read (and then go to sleep!) haha! 🙂
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@King
I am so glad to hear from you. Yes, I am talking about the Modern Fundamentalism Movement. Sometimes I get it confused because where I live, the Fundamentalist Movement and Fundamental Christianity are interwined together by the religious crazies in my small, Southern town. I can’t wait to move out of that town and move back upnorth.
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Friend Kwamla said:
“However, I would still pose the same question: Why should it matter?”
************
Again Kwamla:
It only matters (in my mind, anyway) because if the discussion is about being a “christian” we should at least perhaps attempt to have similar ideas or a similar understanding of what this – being a Christian – is, or supposed to be.
Why bother having a discussion, on any subject, if what’s being discussed has a very different meaning amongst the participants in the discussion. We’ve observed how DIFFERENTLY the word “racist” is defined among blacks, whites and others everywhere and how THAT hinders meaningful, profitable discussions.
Why spin these same wheels and go nowhere fast (again) on the idea or understanding of what a Christian is, or supposed to be, according to the tenets of its foundation, or cornerstone?
I posed my original question to challenge this mainstream view of Christians… which imo equates to being more of an admirer of the Christ, rather than being an emulator of his anointing/Spirit, his life and his actions … you know, Christ-like.
(I have no stakes whatsoever in this… I’m just an interested bystander/observer. I’ll now return to my post on the wall and continue to watch.)
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My Friend Matari
I understand what you have commented on here. But also why you, along with other people here, might have expressed this as a problem with those who profess to be….“….an admirer of the Christ, rather than being an emulator of his anointing/Spirit, his life and his actions … you know, Christ-like….
I do understand and get this….And its good that you raise it in this way because this is what drives fundamentalist beliefs in the Christian world view. It is the belief that the core Christ-like beliefs are not really understood or practised.
So in response to your comment:
“Why spin these same wheels and go nowhere fast (again) on the idea or understanding of what a Christian is, or supposed to be, according to the tenets of its foundation, or cornerstone?”
This is why I was able to say this earlier before:
But please don’t go back to just being an observer or watcher on the wall. As you know I always enjoy your comments and perspective. What you’ve shared here and allowed me to break down is exactly what I feel this discussion really should be about. Something which most people commenting here would ordinarily never even give a second thought to.
Its no surprise to me that you are at least open enough and able to discuss this…
In my view religion is like a drug. To most people the only way to come off it is to substitute it for another drug (another religion). Such is the extent of the addiction that it never occurs to people that they actually might not need any drug. Which usually translates into a non-belief in God or a Creator – or Atheism?.
When the real truth simply is a drug isn’t needed…
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My view on the subject goes back to a High School teacher who said a Christian is someone who, to the best of his or her ability, follows the ways and teachings of Jesus Christ. I agree with that definition.
However- from my unfortunate experiences, those who call themselves Fundamentalist Christians overlook the ways & teachings of Jesus entirely, and instead haul out ‘Paul’ as the basis of their arguments.
As an example, going by a subject one of the posters here addressed, does anyone think JESUS would approve of what the Westboro ‘church’ does or stands for? Jesus didn’t preach hate, cruelty, harming others, etc.
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@ sunkist123: I agree with the High school teacher. That has always been what I was taught a Christian was. I don’t feel that the Westboro Baptist Church is a representative of Jesus’s teachings. They are a group of bigoted hatemongers. That is my opinion.
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In most cases, I have found Atheism to be just another drug, surrounded by he same faith-based trappings and assertions about the all the big questions. Modern “Science” is as much a religion as it is anything else. And it’s adherents have often been smoking their own stash for so long that they no longer even see the smoke, and believe themselves to be drug free.
What it comes down to is, in the end, there are questions of prehistoric origin that cannot be answered by anything but theory. The true choice is one of saying, “I just don’t know” or “This is the answer that I put my faith in,” whether you call it religion or something else.
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This too is my point King – Atheism is indeed just another of those drugs…
And to put ones FAITH in Science to provide ALL the possible answers too is just as intoxicating.
But what I don’t agree with is that we Don’t Know!
We know more than what we allow ourselves to give credit for. Particularly when we learn to meditate and go deep within ourselves for our own inner guidance and answers. We are continually told not to trust our own inner voices or inspirations forgetting of course that this is exactly how we communicated with our ancestors in the past.
We’ve lost touch with our own personal, deep, divine and spiritual connection. Instead we’ve learned to place our trust in the externally created teachings of people who we consider (consciously or otherwise) to be more divinely inspired and superior in many other ways than ourselves…
How tragic is this…?
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-Kwamla
“Instead we’ve learned to place our trust in the externally created teachings of people who we consider (consciously or otherwise) to be more divinely inspired and superior in many other ways than ourselves…”
I.E. Physicians, Psychiatrists, Clergy, PRIESTS, Ministers, Rabbis, Educators …
“How tragic is this…?”
For those who haven’t unlearned this blind trust – it’s very tragic indeed.
The Creator doesn’t respect one person more than another. We can ALL HEAR its VOICE (know the truth) if we’d simply be *quiet* and *listen.*
That is unless one is purposely tuned in to that OTHER voice – which is a whole other story!
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Matari, that is precisely why I got into Yoga and the Eastern traditions. They are all about quieting and listening.
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Here is a blog that explains Christian hegemony and how to challenge it;
http://christianhegemony.org/what-is-christian-hegemony
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King:
How so? “Science” in its purest form requires you to believe nothing on insufficient evidence, encourages falsification of existing beliefs, and establishes a methodology for the advancement of knowledge.
In contrast, religion primarily tends to value belief over evidence and often requires obedience to dogma which one is discouraged to challenge.
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“Matari, that is precisely why I got into Yoga and the Eastern traditions. They are all about quieting and listening.”
* * * * * * *
@Why?
I notice how your icon kinda reflects that :quieting and listening” w/your mouth taped shut and one eye closed – as if you’re focusing on something (or someone) specific. : ))
My biblical understanding of Yeshua/Jesus/the Son is he often went away from people so that he could commune ALONE, QUIETLY, with the Father.
It’s the same SPIRIT.. imo.
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Randy writes:
“In contrast, religion primarily tends to value belief over evidence and often requires obedience to dogma which one is discouraged to challenge.”
– – –
I tend to agree.
Religion is a really touchy subject, and, as such, I am somewhat apprehensive in engaging in a discussion on the topic. As a person who was raised in the Baptist denomination (and who was even baptized in the River Jordan at age 17), but who identified as an agnostic in her 20s and, as of the last few years, is an atheist, I have found that some (NOT ALL) people who identify as theists (including self-described clergypersons) can be quite vicious towards anyone whom they characterize as being ‘non-believers’. I have actually been called a satanist by some after acknowledging my (then) agnosticism and present atheism (how anyone can pull “evil devil-worshiper” out of the word ‘atheism’ is beyond me; if I worship “Satan”, then “Satan” is in effect my god, and therefore I cannot be classified as an atheist.
personally don’t try to dissuade anyone from their theistic beliefs, but, and at the same time, I don’t feel all that free to discuss my own beliefs / conclusions regarding existence, consciousness and physical matter reality, as some theists do take extreme umbrage to the notion that others do not believe in their gods. The reverse is also true — some atheists / non-theists are very hateful in their denouncements of others’ beliefs in god(s). which probably causes the opposite of the desired outcome, if anything. I know that when I was a theist, I turned a deaf ear to atheistic rants….
I will say this, though: like Paul on the road to Damascus, it was as if scales had fallen from my eyes, but, unlike Paul, my epiphany was the realization that there is really is no “god” (no offense intended to believers)….
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Quieting and listening are good things. I love to be reflective.
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An excellent link you provided here Why?…Because it accurately articulates a major point I’ve been making about the dominance, supremacy and power (hegemony) of Christian religion in Western dominated societies..
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Fiamma & Randy agree: (though probably for different reasons!)…
Sadly, this is not the case…What King has said (which I’ve been trying to explain with my own drug analogy) is absolutely true!
Science is indeed its own Religion!
Now here is an interesting link (for anyone addicted to this religion) providing some evidence to consider:
http://listverse.com/2012/12/15/top-10-reasons-science-is-another-religion/
I quite liked this one:
Belief in whatever form we would like to express it in will always be subject to “bias”. Either your own personal bias or the bias of another group. Why should a belief in Science be any different then?
This is the number one reason Randy (for many years now) can be on a blog like Abagond’s dealing with multiple examples and illustration of the subtleties of Racism……..and yet still not “get it”?
Similarly does belief in a Christian based Religion carry any LESS bias?
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Kwamla, blood letting would be an example of pseudo science. Although “doctors”, they did not apply the scientific method to blood letting. That’s called “quackery” – something not unheard of in the medical field.
Truly scientific minded doctors would not have gone on blood letting for too long once it became obvious to them that it was not working.
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Don’t miss the point – Why?
Blood letting might be considered a pseudo science Today but it wasn’t then otherwise it would never have survived as a practice. Of course there would have been doctors who thought and practiced differently. But their method or practice was not the conscientious – which is the point! .
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I am not religious, and nor am I particularly scientific,
But, during the time I have been exposed to religion, I to and fro about it because although I understand the FEELING behind it, the following of dogma or dogmata, such as believing that the Pope is infallible, makes me pause. This belief in infallibility and certainty.
I can appreciate that many people like nothing more than being certain, and having certainty around them, it’s quite natural.
In faith that belief can be one thing, but in life, certainties can be useless and they can even be harmful.
Certainty underpins the nature of ex cathedra (or “coming from the throne”) in Catholic passion and Catholic reason, because it symbolizes teaching and governing from a throne of authority.
That is not to say all theological enquiry is dogmata, because most Church teachings wouldn’t be classed as dogmata, but what IS considered dogma is Divine: unchanging and — objectively and perfectly — true.
What a Catholic Christian may consider Divine depends on many things, but it’s my opinion that what you believe depends on whether you were born into the religion, whether you were converted into it, and, quite importantly, at what age. I was not born a Catholic, but was converted into it at age 11, in order to get an education, one that could overcome speech and learning disabilities, poorly understood and treated in the Education System I was in. That was the transaction with the Church-schools at that time and place.
The Catholic students and teachers knew their Christianity in no other way. For me, I was in it, but did not embrace it, unable to grasp its root in my child-mind.
Perhaps if I’d actively chosen conversion as an adult, or had been born into a wholly Christian family, I would have responded differently to a Christian identity? Generally, very generally, I saw that those that had been born into Catholicism knew it more intimately and more humbly than the more over-zealous, though sincere, adult converts.
At that age, I struggled with a few concepts, like the Virgin Birth (this, after being disabused about the fantasy of Santa Klaus some while before).
Similarly, I struggled with the pre-existence of Jesus as Christ before his birth from her as a human being. A Polish Catholic I went to school with also felt this way. What was the nature of the Holy Spirit to have this agency to impregnate a human female? Yet, wasn’t the Holy Spirit the most “female” of the Holy Trinity’s parts? And, didn’t Mary plays the greatest part among Catholic Christians? So often I’d see prayer directed at her and her alone, and later on, instincts would prompt me to ask what I did not know yet. The Holy Mother kneels in submission before her son! Something didn’t seem right about that. What was this notion of piety and patience in the face of suffering? What was the purpose of myth and myth-making? Weren’t there reversals, denials and tokenism hiding greater truths? I yearned to learn about what had been concealed and twisted around in the midst of all these teachings. Later, what I found out shocked but didn’t surprise me. What is internalized becomes self-perpetuating.
I tried reading the Bible in full, as I tried reading the Qur’an, succeeding in neither. I didn’t expect to discover that the Injeel (New Testament in Islam) mentioned Jesus more times than Mohammed himself, and encourages seeking and learning over doctrine!
I concluded from these early searches, that above all, human beings, whether we were believers or not, needed comfort and peace, and that the many Christians (and Muslims) that I grew up around found this in their religion. (The Muslims seemed different, from the Christians, though. Their faith could be better described as a System of Living, not only conferring a very strong, simple sense of worth and dignity, but laws that were grounded in mercy for the repentant.)
Years later, and by sheer accident, I found myself staying for longer than I’d intended in Catholic Ireland. At that time, more and more people were insisting that sexual abuse of children by “The Religious” had to be addressed after so many years of cover-up, bullying and blaming the victims. The Religious — aka, the clergy — dodged, and wherever moral high ground could be had it, was played out. I recall one former professor of moral theology, Vincent Twomey, giving an an interview and saying that those Religious Ones who were being attacked in the media were no more than: “the dregs of society” who “never had a genuine commitment to celibacy”.
To his mind, his colleagues were — suddenly — now lowlifes that had failed to curb their appetites. Their “evil was endemic”, yet, for decades no-one, apparently, absolutely no-one, “knew” of it. What an atmosphere this must have been.
The claims were investigated and facts detailed by The Ryan Report.
Shortly after, I recall reading and hearing that there had existed congregations of youngsters under priestly care that had enforced the use of small whips and self-flagellation on a weekly basis, usually during Lent. For discipline. In fact, there were disciplines and humiliations galore: for those that overslept, for instance, they would have to join the others at breakfast with blankets thrown over their heads.
http://www.childabusecommission.com/rpt/pdfs/
Women had no reproductive rights; contraception had been forbidden to them whilst also unable to care for more children than they could manage. Yet, a friend’s mother had told me that priests used the confessional booth to insist that women pay their “marital dues” in full without a thought as to how they’d feed their large families. This was the same Western European country that barred women — using convoluted theological reasoning, as usual — from the study of the theology they had to obey and serve during most of these decades described in the Report.
The nuns and friars that schooled me were exemplary, and did their humanly best. I also see nothing wrong in having faith, loving God, believing in a Higher Power, reverence for the Creation, for those that aspire or seek to cleanse their souls by spiritual practice, to suffer for something or someone you you love, and so on. What I have seen though, too often, far too often, is that human beings do and have done, huge wrong in the name of religion.
And, it was so in theological circles that had promoted The Theology of Sacrifice over The Theology of Mercy.
At its heart, The Theology of Sacrifice promotes “redemptive violence” , and is responsible for so many cruelties dressed up as punishment-for-nothing in an endless cycle of sin and redemption. After all, who were these “dregs” that the professor meant? The poor from large families who endowed their families with honour and status for being one of The Religious, of course! Born in Original Sin and shaped by poverty and colonisation and mental slavery in that country’s past.
During the time the issue was being discussed, what was rarely mentioned — though not a secret — was that the Vatican itself was established as a modern, independent state in 1929, and the legal age of consent was 12 years old. Well, I up until earlier this month, I believe.
I could be mistaken there…
I suppose, at the time, that was the general age of consent under Italy’s laws? If the Vatican’s consent laws have indeed changed, then it would only have been brought about to bear by pressure from the molestation scandals. After all, the citizens of Vatican City are only several hundred (500-600), and it follows that most of them are celibate clergy, so why fix what isn’t broken?
Many people in Ireland battled with remaining Christian, or at least Catholic.
Some Catholics became Protestants. Many more seemed to go to Mass less.
What I found most difficult to reconcile was the making ordinary of of pain and its infliction. Mortification and fleshly suffering was not only necessary part of the religion, it was part of uniting of unchanging Divine nature with changing human nature, and therefore, PAIN. In fact pain was not only at centre-stage, there is joy in it, because it expresses love and has the potential to expiate one’s own sins and even those of others.
Obviously expressing your love for Christ is not satisfying enough?!
I draw a line there.
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@ Bulanik
Western RELIGIONS SUCK in so many ways. History, and current events are rife with examples of how RELIGION is typically used to harm and murder peoples.
If I believed that The Creator of All truly functions within the confines of organized religious establishments, for example: churches, mosques, synagogs and the like, subscribing to and following the ceremonies and traditions of men, I’d be either an atheist or agnostic instead of a believer in a Divine Creator who designed and orchestrates the Universe. The true church is found inside the heart, not outside in some man-made structure.
In other words, mainstream religious practices has devolved and is mostly demonic, imo … much like that other world-wide religious practice known as racism/white-supremacy. There is no Spirit of God in either.
Just my opinion
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Matari, just your opinion? Well, thank you for it. Talk of the heart is often left out of discussions isn’t it? 😀
It’s waaaay past my bed time.
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@ Matari
I would like to return to the subject not only of Christianity, but organized religion in general at another time, when I am fresher.
Even though I focused on the Western world, I feel there is more to it.
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Bulanik & Matari
What you’ve both added and contributed here (especially Bulanik) should be required reading for any open and honest believer or skeptic looking to reconcile their inherited religious views.
The one emotion which is largely and implicitly projected and reflected in ALL mainstream religions is FEAR! This is its basic rationale
FEAR is used as a means of control for not questioning or reasoning to make sense of what is told and explained. Yours is not to reason why but to obey!
Because when you really analyse and subject the teachings and practices – As Bulanik has painstakingly written above – to real life scrutiny…They do not stand up?
However, most drug induced religious devotees never make it to this stage because of this FEAR indoctrination factor. Even just reading or talking about it like this can cause extreme psychological and emotional distress.
Its no different to the anxieties most white people can feel when confronted with personally experienced acts of racism for the first time. It can call into question their whole sense of being having to account for and reconcile what was assumed to be non-existent in our society for all these years.
This latent dominant and controlling FEAR is probably also what has prevented Abagond from doing justice to this subject as a post topic for many years. Though I do live in hope that this will one day change!
There is a tremendous amount of truth in what Matari has concluded here though:
Because once we allow the False, Evidence, Appearing, Real (FEAR) to subside this is effectively what we will all find…
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Abagond, you might be interested to see the Skeptic’s Annotated Bible online:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/
It’s a comprehensive list of all the questionable things in the bible, along with contradictions, scientific inaccuracy and so on. You may have missed it in your own search, so perhaps it is good to have another try, alas it is your own choice and right to be Christian.
I am an agnostic black atheist and I, and many other minorities are a minority in a minority. I believe that the black community needs more black people to break the chains of religion in society. black people, native americans and asian people did not “encounter” Christianity; it was mostly due to brainwashing and forced conversion by white supremacy during slavery and invasion; another reason why I feel so strongly about it.
The atheist community is currently overrun with people of white privilege like Richard Dawkins, etc, those of intellectual smugness and dogmatism. I think it’s about time different sets of people explored atheism, not just those who have nothing to lose.
I agree with your point that “God” does not have to be our ideal vision of a good creator or be aligned with how we feel about things today, along with our philosophy. But my point is, what if that is not a “God” writing that book today? The person writing the bible may seem wise, but if you look indepth, you’ll see he was quite human (and definitely a he), a person with strong emotions and an manipulative edge to them. Religion and belief is such a feeble thing, I believe even Hitler made his own version of the bible one time to support aryanism.
Should we believe in a book, that like so many others has been possibly written to control the political, social and philosophical minds of people? The bible has some truth, but a lot of them are half-truths. I personally believe that agnosticism is important as while we cannot claim there is no God (there’s no proof that any God does not exist) we cannot claim there that there is. This philosophy is not wishy-washy as it is the best way to ensure that false religions and prophets do not alter or manipulate the daily lives of people
People are very susceptible to brainwashing, manipulation, lies, and the thing that has kept Christianity so alive is that people who are searching for more in life find it as a better alternative because “there is more there” as well as a better social support structure. Christianity does not make anyone a good person other than what the person has
That said, Christianity has many important and useful philosophies that I believe should not be ignored in this day and age; at the same time, I don’t believe we have to believe in the Christian God in order to accept some of the sentiments in the book.
Anyway, Dr. Sikivu Hutchinson is an excellent black author who talks about the effects of the church on black people, as well as why the black community is very socially dependent on the church due to the struggle that we face as marginalized minorities. Perhaps you can check out her writings some time.
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