Note: The following is just me thinking out loud. It is not based on studies or anything.
Americans think in terms of race and class. Those things do affect people profoundly, but there is a third thing that affects them just as much: something I will call rootedness, meaning rootedness within the society at large.
There are three main kinds of rootedness:
- the transplants: those who come to America willingly to make a better life. Most join the middle-class within a generation or less through education and hard work. Newspapers hold them up as proof that America is fair and just. Examples: Koreans, West Indians, Jews, Italians; in the 1800s: Germans, Scots.
- the rooted: those who are fully part of the mainstream culture. They are not seen as “other” by those who run society. Examples: White Americans; in the 1800s: WASPs.
- the uprooted: those who have been forced from their homeland. In America they tend to experience high rates of unemployment, imprisonment, substance abuse, broken homes and dropping out of school. Examples: Native Americans, Black Americans, Laotians, Cambodians; in the 1800s, the Irish.
When I read about the Sioux Indians I noticed how much they were like Black Americans: high rates of imprisonment, substance abuse, etc.
When I read about the Maori in New Zealand it was much the same. And then when I went to New Zealand I noticed they held the same position as blacks in the States: working fast food joints, becoming famous through sports, being blamed for their poverty, etc.
Whites often blame race or culture – but what in the world would the Sioux, Maoris and Black Americans have in common? The only thing they have in common is trying to live in white racist Anglo society.
But it is not just racism alone: when West Indians and Africans come to America they do much better than Black Americans even though they face racism too and are foreigners on top of that.
Koreans also do better, though the racism against them seems weaker. But then there are Asians who are stuck in poverty too and have high dropout rates and all the rest: Laotians and Cambodians.
So something besides just race is at play. And something besides class too: most West Indians who come to America are not middle- or upper-class but poor.
It is rootedness: the Irish, Laotians, Black Americans and Native Americans belong to four different races and yet all lived in poverty in America longer than newspaper editors would expect. What they have in common is that they were all were uprooted from their homelands – by famine, war, chains or conquest.
The Irish have moved from uprooted to rooted; the Sioux have not. Rootedness seems to require assimilation into the mainstream culture and race is part of that.
The Jews were uprooted way back in Roman times but have been that way for so long that they have become, in effect, perpetual transplants. The same with some overseas Chinese.
See also:
- The Sioux today
- Maori
- Jews
- The model minority stereotype
- The white club
- The Chinese Invasion Experiment – a thought experiment about White Americans as uprooted and the difference it would make.
Yes, the root determines how the plant will grow.
West Indians and Africans who have had their beginnings
in their own country where there was no interaction with
Whites and limited media where Black was the NORM, do
well in school and life as immigrants. a study showed recent Africans in America routinely outperform East Indian and Asian and Oriental students CONSISTENTLY. Their self esteem hasn’t been dependant on a white perspective from birth.
Even
when they get harassed/villified, they know that this negative environment is limited geographically. The realisation (which native Black Americans don’t have) that this is not the way things have to be frees their mind.
There have also been studies that show that in environments where people who are even the same colour/ethnic stock, the ones who are oppressed consistently underperform scholastically in life/school
Look it up.
Japan: Japanese vs Koreans( Koreans are considered stupid, lazy and consistently rate low on IQ tests but when both in America, their scores are similar)
Ireland: Protestants vs Irish
Israel: Jewish vs Palestinians
The study noted that IN EVERY COUNTRY studied, the oppressed consistently underperformed.
This how one’s environment can affect a whole innocent people’s self esteem.
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@Grena
Wow that is a intersting way of looking at it and I do agree with you
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Hello Aiyo, I was surprised myself when I saw the results of this study. I wish it was broadcast to all these young Black, impressionable innocent children in schools.
I think it emphasizes as well the necessity of turning off or limiting the TV to educational programs only and showing our young Black children mainly books on African accomplishments, the ancient rich kingdoms, the rich culture, Black Drs, Black lawyers, writers, Black inventors. I want my Black child to have little or no clue who the Black sportstars, superstars, or rap artists are.
Black children need to see their potential as LIMITLESS!!
I had a young cousin who grew up in Belgium, little self esteem. I took him to the African American Museum in Detroit where he learned of Black achievers.
He later said that it was the first time EVER he was proud to be Black and that pride continued down to this day.
Just 2 hours changed his life. Imagine if he had been exposed to these positive influences while young..
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abagond, you wrote:
“The Jews were uprooted way back in Roman times but have been that way for so long that they have become, in effect, perpetual transplants.”
Based on the extreme ignorance expressed by the preceding sentence, it is impossible to accept your post for anything other than silliness.
Clearly you know nothing about Jews. Meanwhile, blacks would benefit from adopting the strategies of Jews that enable them to prosper wherever they live.
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grena, you wrote:
“Japan: Japanese vs Koreans( Koreans are considered stupid, lazy and consistently rate low on IQ tests but when both in America, their scores are similar)”
Where did you find the preceding nuttiness? It’s very easy to judge an ethnic group when there is an entire nation of them to observe. South Korea and Japan are both prosperous democracies populated by people of intellect and ingenuity. The success off the two nations does all the talking.
Locally — here in Brooklyn — the Korean kids, like the Chinese kids, do well in school. Why? Culture. Not money.
You wrote:
“Ireland: Protestants vs Irish”
You do not even know who is who and what is what in Northern Ireland — which is not the Republic of Ireland. The conflict has been between Catholics and Protestants. All the players are Irish. And they have lived there, side by side, for centuries.
You wrote:
“Israel: Jewish vs Palestinians”
The “Palestinians” are merely arab muslims who claim to have been residents of a nation that never existed. Meanwhile, the problem is Islam. Nothing else.
Almost every muslim nation in the world is an economic failure, and the failure is the outcome of the self-defeating devotion to Islam.
You wrote:
“The study noted that IN EVERY COUNTRY studied, the oppressed consistently underperformed. ”
Claiming to be oppressed is a cheap dodge. That’s what under-achievers always say. They always blame their problems on someone else, even when the whole country is populated by the underachievers.
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Meanwhile, blacks would benefit from adopting the strategies of Jews that enable them to prosper wherever they live
Most of the Jews that I know are able to prosper because they look white and are mistaken for white unless they say otherwise.
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@ Grena:
I loved your comments, both of them. But just a word of warning about No Slappz: I am not sure if you know, but he believes whatever facts suit his argument. I tried holding an argument with him – it was a waste of time. There is no getting through to him.
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I am not American so I think I will limit my comments here.
Just to add much of West Indian and African countries are/were imaged towards the colonialist culture. Remember many of these islands in the Caribbean and countries in Africa only gained their indepedence in the 1960s
Moreover, in some of the Caribbean islands you have Whites there, with other different minorities.
As for Caribbean’s doing well in the US it is agreed that their Caribbean counterparts in the UK are not as ‘successful’. It is also the same for the African community too in the .
It appears, well from that US may be the land of opportunity – but not necessarily so for the indigenes.
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Read Malcolm Gladwell’s ‘Outliers’ for an interesting perspective on Jewish ‘rootedness.’ Essentially, he says Jewish people prosper because they were originally uprooted in their homelands, and forced to become good at tradework. When in America, where crops ruled for a long time, during the industrial revolution, Trades were valued, and thus Jewish people found a niche and excelled. The results of have a trade based foundation within a family typically results in a better work ethic, study ethics in school, and thus, a better career -Lawyer or Doctor esque.
But that’s beside the point.
I agree, especially as a result of slavery, not having defined roots to call your own is…indescribable. I recall being in high school with one of my Irish friends, who was rightly proud of her heritage and could tell you where her ancestors lived, where her family was from, her pictures when she visited her distant family in Ireland and her family crest. The feeling I got when asked about my ancestors and where they were from, was an odd feeling of displacement. There always seems to be a feeling within my family that we have to start things anew, rebuild a foundation that should have already existed. I wonder how my life would have been different had I known more about my past, and my family benefited from it. It’s slavery, of course, but the history involved within it, I believe, would make a lot of the difference.
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This is a CUT AND PASTE for happyslpz..
Please locate and argue with the scientist below as they did the study and not me.
“There are countless examples around the world where the dominant ethnic group scores higher on IQ tests than the discriminated minority, even when the two groups are of the same ethnic stock. Here is a partial list:
Group Differences Around the World (1)
High IQ/grades, Low IQ/grades,
Country Dominant class Discriminated class
———————————————————-
Australia Whites Aborigines
Belgium French Flemish
Czechoslovakia Slovaks Gypsies
Great Britain English Irish, Scottish
India Nontribals Tribal people
High caste Low caste
Israel Jews Arabs
Western Jews Eastern Jews
Brahmin Harijan
Japan Non-Burakumin Burakumin
Japanese origin Korean origin
New Zealand Whites Maoris
Northern Ireland Protestants Catholics
South Africa English Afrikaaners (Dutch)
United States Whites Blacks
Whites Latinos
Whites American Indians
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Rest of article below H-Slpz ENJOY !!!! xx
CUT AND PASTE
Perhaps the most dramatic example is the Northern Irish. Even though they come from the same ethnic group, Catholics (the discriminated minority) score 15 points lower on IQ tests than Protestants.
In the U.S., both Korean and Japanese students score above average in IQ tests; many scholars agree that, genetically, they are about as close as two ethnic groups can get. But the Korean minority living in Japan scores much lower on IQ tests than the Japanese. Why? The Japanese are extremely racist towards Koreans; they view them as stupid and violent, and employ them only in the dirtiest and lowest-paying jobs. Tensions are so great between the two groups that violence often erupts in the form of riots. In the U.S., Polish Jews arriving before 1910 were also perceived as stupid (for no other reason than they were accustomed to a different culture and spoke another language). So many “Pollock” jokes arose that Americans still tell them to this day, even if no one remembers why. The Polish Jews suffered heavy job discrimination and suspicion of criminality; not surprisingly, their children suffered low grades and IQ test scores. Today, of course, many Americans hold the opposite prejudice; Jews are viewed as the most brilliant of ethnic groups.
Russian-born Jews who became American soldiers in World War I also scored low on IQ tests. So low, in fact, that Carl Brigham, the creator of the Scholastic Aptitude Test, declared that the results “disprove the popular belief that the Jew is highly intelligent.”
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This is the source Happy Slpz.
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-inferiorIQ.htm –
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There are simple reasons Jews and others advance in most settings — education and an understanding that some approaches to life work and some fail.
abagond wrote:
“the uprooted: those who have been forced from their homeland. In America they tend to experience high rates of unemployment, imprisonment, substance abuse, broken homes and dropping out of school. Examples: Native Americans, Black Americans, Laotians, Cambodians; in the 1800s, the Irish.”
The US accepts refugees from virtually everywhere. That list has included Cambodians, Laotians, Vietnamese, Cubans and many other ethnic and national groups.
Native Americans are NOT uprooted. They’ve been living on land granted to them for over 100 years. You might have argued that the Geronimo and Sitting Bull were leaders of Native American tribes that were uprooted — until they were settled on reservations.
Over the last century they have been given vast amounts of social services, including money, food, education, ownership of natural resources and now — casinos. Few get such good treatment. Still, there are big substance-abuse problems in the Native American world. Sorry. They have to look inward to solve those problems.
The Irish began moving to America when food became scarce in Ireland. Contrary to your view, after about a generation, the Irish began rising through the ranks. In NY City and Boston they moved into municipal jobs — cops, firemen. Then into politics. They became teachers and city administrators.
The path they blazed was followed by Jews who began arriving in the US about a generation after the Irish. But Jews climbed up the education totem pole, heading off to college and entering professions.
All this from starting mainly in poverty, like my great-grandfather who was born in Austria and landed on the Lower East Side of Manhattan around 1880.
These days, asians are the strivers, ripping it up in school and filling the freshman classes at the best colleges in the US.
Unless success is based on looks — as it is for models — then looks have almost NO impact on success.
Dress and personal comportment are different matters. If people dress in self-defeating ways, if their speech is off-putting, if they fail to understand what is important is social settings, they can lose opportunities. But that is a personal failing.
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Whilst on this topic I do remember a book, and it is from U.S
Tribes: How Race, Religion and Identity Determine Success in the New Global Economy by Joel Kotkin
Just one other thing does IQ in fact measure ‘intelligence’ and/or does it signify anything socially – I mean the IQ??
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J, you wrote:
“Tribes: How Race, Religion and Identity Determine Success in the New Global Economy by Joel Kotkin”
People love books that purport to explain success. Thus, writers have reasons to write them. Meanwhile, on a lot of Harlem street-corners there are people selling books that focus on black failure and how it is all caused by whites.
You asked:
“Just one other thing does IQ in fact measure ‘intelligence’ and/or does it signify anything socially – I mean the IQ??”
IQ tests are about 100 years old. Thus, all the geniuses of earlier ages went about their business of being brilliant without having their brainpower measured by a test taken on some sunny afternoon.
Einstein never took an IQ test. However, I am sure we can agree he was a smart guy.
Bottom line — however — there is a statistically significant correlation between IQ test scores and later success. Moreover, there is correlation between SAT scores and later success. Of course an SAT or IQ test means nothing if a person uses something other than his brain to earn his living.
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Abagond , thanks for your advice. This article below is amazing!
It show AFRICANS (ones who grew up in a wholly positive Black environment) OUTPERFORMING Whites and ASIANS CONSISTENTLY.!!
http://www.jstor.org/stable/3134029
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tina, you wrote:
“Read Malcolm Gladwell’s ‘Outliers’ for an interesting perspective on Jewish ‘rootedness.’ Essentially, he says Jewish people prosper because they were originally uprooted in their homelands, and forced to become good at tradework.”
Jews were uprooted from their homelands? What nonsense. Everyone was pushed around for centuries. One conquering horde followed another. Europe was over-run several times.
The Ottoman Empire — a muslim mess — expanded for hundreds of years, exploiting every non-muslim group that fell under its control — that means Jews, who supplied most of the intellectual advancements that appeared in the Ottoman Empire.
Anyway, no one is a slave to his ancient ancestors. But family values matter, and Jews have always had a family culture placing a massive value on education. It is that simple.
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grena, you wrote:
““There are countless examples around the world where the dominant ethnic group scores higher on IQ tests than the discriminated minority, even when the two groups are of the same ethnic stock.”
Since IQ tests are less than 100 years old and have been refined over that period, it is utterly silly to debate the meaning of a test relative to the social and economic standings of various groups.
By arguing as you are, you are claiming the scores on the IQ test account for the underperformance for the lagging group.
How about this — some people are smarter than others AND some groups are smarter than others. It is said the average white IQ is 100. But the average Japanese IQ is 105. Not much of a difference.
What does the number tell us? It tells us that as a culture, the Japanese have exercised their brains somewhat more than white Americans. But there are virtually no towering geniuses in Japan. The really smart guys are here — in the US. And Europe.
How do we know? We know because of their intellectual output.
There are no consequential geniuses in muslim countries. Why? Simple. Islam is opposed. Independent genius is an affront to Islam. Thus, there are NO good universities in muslim countries. Those muslims who reach the upper levels of the academic world go to school in America, England or Europe.
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there seems to be some confusion as to what is “white,” “white american,” and jewish, etc. a jew is not a race, its a religion or culture, so obviously there are white and black jews. i have never met a black jew myself, so i don’t know anything about them. but white jews are fairly easy to recognize, and are subject to constant stereotypes – as much as any other group. are jonah hill and adam sandler white? i suppose so, but as a “white” man i recognize them as jewish right away. there success did not come from being a “white” jew, it came from talent and hard work – just as there are black actors and comedians who succeeded the same way. which brings me to my next point, you need to be more specific as to what is “white.” if you mean all people of european descent, then you include irish, polish, gypsies, italians, greeks, european jews, european catholics, and the many other underpriveliged, white people who were persecuted at one time or another. there are lots of “white people” and there is a lot of prejudice among different whites. it seems to me like everyone’s concept of “white” is a typical blond haired, blue eyed, american, captain of the football team, protestant christian, republican who inherited money and lives in the suburbs with a white picket fence, plays croquet and lawn bowling, drives an suv and has a puerto rican maid- happily living it up with no concern or awareness of the outside world. the perfect american white boy. i personally do not know anyone like that, and those “white” people only really exist on tv. it seems like a lot of the arguments on here are a little too “black and white” (no pun intended).
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grena, you wrote:
“It show AFRICANS (ones who grew up in a wholly positive Black environment) OUTPERFORMING Whites and ASIANS CONSISTENTLY.!!”
The article shows nothing like that. Nothing.
It compares unlike groups and acknowledges nothing about the academic pursuits of the students.
Keep something in mind, other than going to school in South Africa, few whites travel to black nations for college.
The article cites a statistic about foreign black students earning PhDs at rates above the rate of indigenous whites.
But what is not said is that blacks get PhDs almost exclusively in black studies or sociology. On the other hand, in the US the number of blacks getting PhDs in science and math is roughly ZERO.
There is a correlation between technical inventiveness and the prevalence of technical PhDs. As we know, there is virtually no need for patent offices on the African continent.
Anyway, the article does a dis-service to black readers by giving a sense of achievement that is false.
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rogerrabbit, you wrote:
“…a jew is not a race, its a religion or culture, so obviously there are white and black jews. i have never met a black jew myself, so i don’t know anything about them. but white jews are fairly easy to recognize…”
Let’s see. According to you, there is no Jewish race — thus no Jewish gene — BUT Jews look alike.
From this bit of brilliance I gather that practicing Judaism causes believers to begin sharing a common appearance.
Does practicing Judaism cause a yarmulke to grow on Jewish heads?
Let me know what features Jews share. Let me know if you think those features were evident in Paul Newman.
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Slappz is back!
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grena, you cut and pasted:
“In the U.S., Polish Jews arriving before 1910 were also perceived as stupid (for no other reason than they were accustomed to a different culture and spoke another language).”
This sentiment is merely the popular bias of 1910, which was based on nothing. Moreover, there were no IQ tests in those days. The only measure of intellectual prowess was one’s own achievements. Thus, someone knowing a little calculus was ahead of 99% of the country.
You wrote:
“So many “Pollock” jokes arose that Americans still tell them to this day, even if no one remembers why.”
Really? The only people I hear telling ethnic/racial jokes are black comedians.
You wrote:
“The Polish Jews suffered heavy job discrimination and suspicion of criminality; not surprisingly, their children suffered low grades and IQ test scores.”
Wrong. Jews from Poland were orthodox Jews — the Jews with the beards, the black hats, and other ritual forms of dress and behavior. They were subjected to the age-old anti-Semitism. Meanwhile, those who stayed in Poland were murdered by Hitler. That is the reason there are virtually no Jews in Poland today.
You wrote:
“Today, of course, many Americans hold the opposite prejudice; Jews are viewed as the most brilliant of ethnic groups. “
Prejudice? Jews are seen as smart people for a simple reason — they are. Check the records. When it comes to winning Nobel Prizes in the sciences, math and economics, Jews win the prizes like they own the game.
The territory that became Israel was a wasteland before Jews arrived and cultivated the land in a modern manner. In the US, when it comes to academics, Jews have been leaders for a century. But lately asians have risen into the top levels.
When it comes to college acceptances, asians are the new Jews. Now it is asians who are threatening to over-populate freshman classes at the best schools in the US. Now there are limits on the number of asians admitted by the top schools. Too many qualified applicants are seeking entry. To achieve “diversity” the best schools have to cut back and admit less qualified non-asian students. Amazing.
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@Herneith
Unfortunately.
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One article I found interesting on the HIGH LEVELS OF JEWISH POVERTY in the U.S.A.
1. http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/spages/924897.html
2. http://www.forward.com/articles/6262/
Again, these comments good and bad shows that as a people, we need to do our own research and take charge of teaching our impressionable young Black children that they can be anything they want to be. There are countless wonderful examples of successful professional Blacks that they can aspire to be !! Not just entertainers!!
We already see how fast the Black Middle Class is getting bigger and bigger and bigger! In South Africa alone in 2007 over a period of a year,the Black Middle Class grew by 30%
There is also the show Dragon’s Den (Shark Tank in the USA) which decided to run in Nigeria because due to inventive ideas and entrepreneurial spirit shown there!!
When my family go the Caribbean to visit my relatives or meet them in the Uk or America, we always have a laugh about how we’re supposed to be downtrodden like the Blacks on TV while sitting in my families’ beautiful homes, looking at their children’s graduation from medicine,or a picture of a cousin’s new business. (and yes, I only knew WHITE people who cleaned my house when I was growing up…)
So let’s start teaching kids from young all the Black Inventors, take them to the museums, teach them about Botswana (which is a much better place than South Africa),gorgeous Bermuda, Bahamas,Barbados, etc and how other Black countries economies are steadily/beginning to grow economically.!
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grena,
Is it news to you that there are poor Jews?
The Haaretz article is recent, but the article from the Forward is several years old. Meanwhile, neither article examines the nature of the poverty experienced by Jews.
However, in short, there are few substance-abuse problems. But some of the orthodox Jewish communities have chosen their devotion to religion over earning a little more money.
Meanwhile, they get by on food stamps, medicaid, social security, medicare, rent subsidies and other social service supports. Moreover, anyone who is a Holocaust survivor, or the spouse of a Holocaust victim gets a monthly check from the German government.
As far as poverty in Israel goes, the majority of the poor are muslims. But the muslim citizens of Israel are better off than the muslims who live in the surrounding muslim countries, which are dirt poor.
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Cheers No_Slappz but taking the issue slightly further
IQ Tests: Do they Measure Intelligence??
…The problem is that the term intelligence has never been defined adequately and tehrefore nobody knows what an IQ is supposed to measure…
http://iq-test.learninginfo.org/iq02.htm
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Most of the Jews that I know are able to prosper because they look white and are mistaken for white unless they say otherwise.
What a brilliant explanation! It also explains why East and South Asians are so successful in America. Oh wait… it doesn’t.
The average Jew in Europe and America has always been richer and more educated than the average white Christian, even in the past when Jews were actively discriminated against.
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Always? A hundred years ago they were living in the slums of the Lower East Side in New York. On the army IQ test in the First World War they were at the bottom with blacks and the Irish. A commenter on this very thread, No Slappz, is one of their descendents.
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I am sure No Slappz will be glad to inform you how poor and stupid Jews were back then. After all, he has no trouble telling us how screwed up blacks and Muslims are using the same sort of arguments. And he has no pride in being Jewish or white, so he will see the facts for what they are and not try to sugarcoat them or explain them away.
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@abagond
No, he will say something completely irrelevant to the point!
Then say that “you’re in denial of reality”
He’s a tool, a troll and frankly his antics get vey old, very quickly!
no_slappz needs some Slappz! lol!
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J, you wrote:
“…The problem is that the term intelligence has never been defined adequately and tehrefore nobody knows what an IQ is supposed to measure…”
Somewhat true. But there is a high correlation between Japan’s average IQ and the general level of education and prosperity in the country.
Thus, whatever an IQ test measures, the results correlate with important outcomes.
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The troll is still here!
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abagond says:
@ Grena:
“I loved your comments, both of them. But just a word of warning about No Slappz: I am not sure if you know, but he believes whatever facts suit his argument. I tried holding an argument with him – it was a waste of time. There is no getting through to him.”
He’s just a typical troll!
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abagond, you wrote:
“A hundred years ago they were living in the slums of the Lower East Side in New York. On the army IQ test in the First World War they were at the bottom with blacks and the Irish.”
abagond, your knowledge of Jews is so lacking, there’s little hope of filling in the gaps.
Before there were IQ tests, how as a person’s intelligence judged? If Einstein had taken an IQ test, do you think the results would show a high number? Was he less intelligent because he never took an IQ test?
As they say, the proof is in the pudding. The muslim nations of the world are poor, undeveloped countries — including those with oil — like Iran and Iraq.
The black nations of the world are abjectly poor. Do you understand why Haiti is such a horrible mess today?
As for pride in my ancestry, well, to me, the facts are merely interesting information. My family tree has its roots in Austria, Sweden and England. However, none of that has had any impact on my life.
The only thing that really matters are the genes in my body and what they enable me to do.
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Vindicator, you were right! He used my pitiful lack of knowledge about Jews as an excuse to sidestep the question!
I nominate No Slappz for the Barbara Bush Award for Deluded Whiteness:
Do I hear a second?
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I second that nomination abagond!
Personally I would just ban his a***!
Abagond, why do you put up with no_slappz’ trollish antics!
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That’s certainly one thing they all have in common, what they also have in common is being direct descendants of tribal societies that were not as technically or educationally advanced as the anglo invaders. What western societies have is a lot of human, military and cultural capital that allowed them to spread across the world and create advanced societies that tribal people could not defend against or compete with. In countries like Japan that already had a lot of pre-existing human capital, their domination by the West was short lived and they eventually rose to economic superpower status. China is about to become the next.
West Indian and African immigrants are analogous to the Korean immigrants. They are people that know the value of education, being resourceful and taking advantage of immense opportunities in the West to better oneself. With the indigenous cultures you mentioned earlier, that mindset was never adopted. They viewed the dominating culture as an enemy, not to be embraced or emulated, not to mention the fact that racist laws kept them from integrating.
Laotian and Cambodian social values are probably a lot different than what you find in NE Asia. For example, I don’t think it’s in their culture for the parents to be as obsessed with educational achievement as you’d find in Korea or Japan.
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Thomas Sowell wrote pretty extensively about this subject in his trilogy:
Amazon.com Review:
Anyone curious about this topic might find these books of interest.
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I mentioned this in another post, but I think we should stop calling IQ test “intelligence tests” because I don’t think everyone that does poorly on them is unintelligent.
What I think IQ tests measure specifically, is the ability to apply abstract reasoning to solve problems. Not all intelligence involves abstract reasoning. You can bomb an IQ test, yet be smart when it comes to raising children, having common sense, or just general life wisdom. Not all intelligence involves analyzing numbers and data.
The link above contained a very interest concept I hadn’t thought about before, that that’s to what effect curiosity is responsible for inventiveness. Is curiosity tied to high IQ or independent of it? Are unintelligent people as likely to be curious as highly intelligent people? High intelligence + curiosity does seem to be a winning formula for high levels of productivity and inventiveness.
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No_slappz, you said that all black PhDs are in black studies in sociology. Do you have a source for that?
You also seem to be subtly implying that black/Africana studies and sociology aren’t valuable topics to study. I’m not saying they should be the ONLY thing studies or that there’s nothing more important out there to study, but they have their proper place as well.
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“Abagond, why do you put up with no_slappz’ trollish antics!”
He’s hilarious!
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Always? A hundred years ago they were living in the slums of the Lower East Side in New York. On the army IQ test in the First World War they were at the bottom with blacks and the Irish. A commenter on this very thread, No Slappz, is one of their descendents.
Don’t be so literal. Due to pogroms, migrations, and other upheavals there were brief periods during the last 1000 years when Jews in Christian lands may have been poorer than the majority populations. Yet, in the long run, Jews have always been more successful than Christians, almost all of whom of course were dirt-poor peasants for most of the time period under consideration.
By the second generation at the latest, Jews rise to the top of any society they immigrate to. Far from considering Jews stupid, the early 20th century WASP elite in America felt threatened by their intelligence. The Ivy League, for example, instituted quotas to keep them out.
What’s the source for the claim about army IQ tests?
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Dare I go back into this matter. Once again we are delving into the Philsophy of science as it relates to the Social Sciences. Perhaps Ana may want to comment here, since she is in a far better position to do so.
One of the problem with this area of analysis when you are talking about social groups are that it can lead to ‘(over-)generalisations’ and/or even sterotypes.
In addition you have the problem of establishing ’cause and effect’.
Of course ‘factors’ can be identified but once again they have to be given a human interpretation against the backdrop of the socio-economic/cultural environment.
As for the matter whatever an IQ test measures, the results correlate with important outcomes.
You must not lose sight also that the IQ is also culturally-relative, which again is another problem of IQs ie they are not standardised.
Personally I think it is the ‘social environment’ that determines peoples expectations and ultimately their outcomes in life – not their IQ
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It isn’t funny to me! I getting tired of no_slappz’ pseudointellectual bull!
It’s like arguing with a 7 year old!
I’ve got no time for it! Infact, even typing and chatting about no_slappz is a waste of time, energy and oxygen.
I have very little tolerance for his trollish ilk!
He’s a tool and a troll, nothing more!
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tulio, you wrote:
“No_slappz, you said that all black PhDs are in black studies in sociology. Do you have a source for that?”
Google it. There are plenty of credible sources of information about who gets what degrees in college, graduate school, and post graduate school.
Meanwhile, I said ALMOST all blacks who get PhDs get them in black history or sociology. Add education to the list. In other words, fuzzy stuff that requires no serious intellectual horsepower.
I am a graduate of an engineering school and I can tell you I have never met any blacks with PhDs in science, engineering or math. Of course there are some. But very, very few.
You wrote:
“You also seem to be subtly implying that black/Africana studies and sociology aren’t valuable topics to study.”
The subjects may be interesting. But they are easy, and are aimed at creating a fog around too many rather unimportant issues while at the same time attempting to elevate their significance.
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Vindicator,
I wouldn’t worry about no_slappz’s comments. Especially as the internet is a marvellous tool for locating/researching positive information and dispelling lies. There are rich Muslim Countries like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, the UAE and Qatar where hordes of foreigners go and work tax free and live a life of unimaginable luxury. My Aunt went to Saudi and the level of wealth/education among the average Saudi was quite high.
There are hordes of Black inventors(in Scientific areas and other areas) and a high rate destitute poor jews living in America (and the number is getting higher!)
Can you take someone seriously who admires Adolf Hitler? Abagond’s writing is very clear, logical and concise(with facts) where no_slappz comments are emotional, laughable and make no sense at all, just like a 7 year old.
And the best part is he’s wasting his time because NO ONE on this site will be influenced, by his useless diatribes..
I mean, look at the KKK? Where are they now? If a member came up to me and spewed out all comments like no_Slappz, i’d have a good laugh, go home, tell my friends and family and laugh more..And so should you!
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By the way, if you come to the UK, there are hordes of
Black Doctors and other Blacks who have other
science/engineering Degrees. Blacks and Indians here are
more likely than the average White Brit to run their own
company.
From personal experience as well, in my immediate family,
most of our jobs/schooling are science related.
In fact, a family member is taking a difficult specialised science university course where the classismade up of Blacks and Indians but a few Whites.
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This article clears up a bit of no slappz sloppy statements about black PhDs…
http://www.jbhe.com/news_views/50_black_doctoraldegrees.html
Most blacks aren’t getting doctorates in black studies and sociology, the largest bulk of them get them in education.
The SAME proportion of whites get degrees in social studies as blacks do. So there goes another stereotype down in flames.
No slapps would have you think most whites getting doctorates are earning them in balls to the wall fields like science and engineering. But only a whopping 12% of white doctorates are in science.
The article does indicate that yes, there is a huge under-representation of blacks in sciences at the doctorate level, and in many fields of science, there were zero blacks earning any doctorates. However looking at the vertical chart on the right showing degrees awarded in the physical sciences, only 2100 were given these degrees in the year of 2004. That’s 2100 people out of population of 300,000,000 or IOW .0007% of America’s population. So when talking about the absence of blacks in science doctorates, let’s frame that by remembering that the number of people earning these degrees are staggeringly small no matter what race we’re talking about. The question is bigger than why are few blacks earning doctorates in science, it’s why are so few Americans earning them period.
As far as engineering goes, a field which slappz boasts membership, engineering made up 4.5% of black doctorates. Compared to 7% of white doctorates. Percentage-wise, I wouldn’t say that’s leaps and bounds in difference.
Looking at the pie chart on the page, you can see that the majority of white PhDs got their degrees in subjects that slappz refers to as “easy” subjects in humanities and
social studies. So there goes yet another stereotype down in flames.
Keep in mind, we’re only talking about PhDs here, if we’re only talking about bachelors and master degrees, you will certainly see many more blacks with degrees in science and engineering. I think you intentionally drew the line at the doctorate level in order to dramatize your argument.
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Tulio, you just proved how the internet is invaluble for doing our own research that corrects negative information. And it shows how we cannot afford to be spoonfed by people and the media who manipulate, twist data to make themselves look better. (like Fox News). What a joke! We need to get someone like Oprah to promote a book for EVERY young Black child that demonstrates the achievers in our community.
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Yes, you’re right “something besides just race is at play”.
Now, Is it because Black people here in the U.S. do not conform to the white social structure of those in charge (“the WHITE way of DOING THINGS”).
For example, WE have OWN beliefs in who WE support politically, economically, AND socially. And because of this, The white power structure has been so ANTI-Black by providing, inferior educations, shutting us out of employment AND opportunities, AND the granddaddy of them all, expanding the PRISON-INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX SYSTEM!
God Bless America.
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The report from the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education includes a lot of information. The raw data is accurate. Some of the derived data is wrong.
The report was constructed from information gathered by the University of Chicago. It includes the following:
A report prepared by the National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago finds that 1,869 African Americans earned doctorates in 2004.
The report shows 41.3 percent of all doctorates awarded to African Americans in 2004 were in the field of education. In contrast, only 19.1 percent of doctorates earned by whites were in this field
Twenty percent of all doctorates awarded to U.S. citizens in 2004 were earned by U.S. racial/ethnic minority groups. This is the largest percentage ever, and continues a steady upward trend.
Among the 25,811 doctorates earned in 2004 by U.S. citizens who identified their race/ethnicity (98 percent of all U.S. citizen doctorates), 1,869 doctorates were earned by blacks, 1,449 were earned by Asians, 1,177 were earned by Hispanics, and 129 were earned by American Indians.
The broad fields with the largest percentages of minorities were education, in which blacks were the predominant minority group, and engineering, in which Asians were predominant.
Meanwhile, during the 2003-2004 academic year, the 419 universities in the United States that conferred research doctorates awarded 42,155 doctorates.
The number of doctorates awarded by broad field in 2004 was greatest in life sciences, which conferred 8,819 Ph.D.s. The numbers in the other broad areas were 6,795 in social sciences; 6,635 in education; 6,049 in physical sciences and mathematics (combined); 5,776 in engineering; 5,467 in humanities; and 2,614 in business and other professional fields.
The article in the Journal of Blacks in HIgher Education goes off the rails when its author calculated percentages of degrees earned by blacks.
Readers too easily accept the notion that the percentage of blacks receiving degrees in various subjects is comparable on a one-to-one basis with whites getting the same degrees. It is not.
It was stated that 1,869, or about 7% of all PhDs were awarded to blacks. However, if blacks earned PhDs on proportion to their percentage of the population, the number would have been about 13%.
Further, the article states that 770, or about 41% of black PhDs were awarded in Education.
It is also stated that blacks earned 84, or 4.5% of engineering PhDs. This number is compared with the figure for whites earning engineering PhDs, which is stated at 7% — of all PhDs earned by whites.
In other words, the article slyly compares slices of two different pies. But it attempts to pass them off as the same pie.
In 2004 there were 5,776 engineering PhDs awarded. Even if all of them went to asians (asians earned a total of 1,449 PhDs in all fields) that would mean 4,327 were earned by whites.
Putting it another way, those 4,327 white engineering PhDs are 50 times the number of black engineering PhDs.
tulio notes the smallness of the numbers here. However, tulio ignores the extraordinary impact of these few people.
Rather than play defense by claiming they are a rounding error, it would be smarter to focus on multiplying their numbers since it is so obvious their presence has enormous and far-reaching effects. Intellectual leverage, you might say.
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grena, you wrote:
“There are rich Muslim Countries like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, the UAE and Qatar where hordes of foreigners go and work tax free and live a life of unimaginable luxury.”
Almost all the money in Saudi Arabia comes from sales of oil. The oil is owned by the royal family, but the family does NOT share the wealth with everyone in the kingdom.
Moreover, Saudi Arabia is a very, very conservative muslim kingdom, which means ALL the women wear burqas and are effectively the property/slaves of men. A woman cannot drive a car in Saudi Arabia. And openly practicing Christianity is a crime.
You wrote:
“My Aunt went to Saudi and the level of wealth/education among the average Saudi was quite high.”
The level of education among Saudis is low because the country is a muslim kingdom that does not approve of true intellectual pursuit. The people with money are members of the royal family, or they are directly tied to it. But there are no industries in Saudi Arabia other than oil. They make nothing. No car-making. No computer makers. No pharmacuetical companies. Nothing.
You wrote:
“There are hordes of Black inventors(in Scientific areas and other areas)”
The preceding statement is simply false. There are also no muslim inventors. Nothing except suicide vests has come out of a muslim country in the last 1,000 years.
You wrote:
“…and a high rate destitute poor jews living in America (and the number is getting higher!)”
There are poor Jews in the US. You make the statement as though it is revealing a dark secret that Jews would rather keep hushed up. But few are “destitute.” The usual social programs supporting other poor segments of the population are there to support Jews too.
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@Lynette
no_slappz doesn’t need any data! He just has to run his mouth and bulls*** comes flooding out of it!
He gets his kicks from sometimes stating the obvious, disregarding anything we say that counters his claims and just plain avoiding the question!
Typical trollish behaviour really!
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Slappz emotionally and senseles comments are hilarious!. If you want to look at numbers rather than percentages, i’m sure more than 50 x white people are on welfare compared to Blacks numberwise. As for wealthy muslim countries, wealthy is wealthy whether it comes from oil or slavery(in england, wealth has never been shared with the common man) The average English person is happy to have a 700 sq ft semi (with no garage!) Lastly DRAGONS DEN tv show went to Nigeria.!! It rewards inventors and entrepreneurs. No show would go set up in a country if there were no potentials. Slappz is so funny, I had a good chuckle at his comments. Maybe you should go work with one of Grenda’s white maid or help out in one of the numerous Jewish ghettos to blow off some steam lol
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no slappz said:
I think you’re missing the main point. You can say whites earned 4,327 engineering PhDs but that number PALES in comparison to the number of whites earning their PhDs in the “easy stuff” as you put it. Nothing you said above contradicts anything I said.
The purpose of my last response was to point out that you were basing your statements about black degrees off nothing but stereotypes, saying most black degrees are in “black history and social studies” when that’s not the case. In fact whites are even slightly *more* likely on a percentage basis to go into social studies than blacks. You drew your conclusion ONLY based on stereotypes, not any prior knowledge. I just wanted to set the record straight on that.
I also felt that you were over-exaggerating the number percentage of whites who go into sciences and engineering versus those that go into social studies, education and humanities. MOST whites earn their degrees in the latter fields, not the hard stuff. Science PhDs make up a extraordinarily tiny fraction of our population none the less and most people, black, white, Asian, Latino or whatever can’t cut it in those courses. Of those that do, yeah, it’s mostly whites and Asians, but don’t assume that therefore most whites and Asian are good at it. It’s like assuming most blacks are world class sprinters just because most the elite sprinters are black.
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tulio, you wrote:
“yeah, it’s mostly whites and Asians, but don’t assume that therefore most whites and Asian are good at it. It’s like assuming most blacks are world class sprinters just because most the elite sprinters are black.”
Not quite. You miss the meaning of what happens at the margins. Yes, the world’s greatest sprinters are black. And if we examine the sprinting world from those who hold the Olympic records back to those first races in grade school, we find that blacks are always at the head of the pack.
It’s not that there are NO speedy white runners. But relative to speedy black runners, the percentage of speedy whites is like the percentage of PhDs going to blacks. Actually, probably not as good.
But this raises a second issue. There is no limit on the number of PhDs that can be earned. Getting a PhD is not a competitive race in which there is only one winner. If a million people entered PhD programs and successfully met the degree requirements, then one million people would receive doctorates.
As for what people study, well, as I said, blacks get PhDs in black history, sociology and education — all soft subjects. An education PhD is one of the easiest to get. A lot of credit is gotten for simply participating in seminars.
Bottom line — few blacks — on an absolute and percentage basis — go into the sciences and engineering. The sciences include medical school. I know the percentages for whites.
The shift starts early. Before high school. Blacks back away from math and science. Why? You tell me.
Furthermore, this fact shows in standardized test scores all the way through public school. NY City public school students take standardized tests in English and math almost every year. Science tests are given every couple of years.
The results of all tests given to students in the NY City public school system are published. The results are available for each school in the system and for the overall student body enrolled in NY City public schools.
The results are broken out by grade level, by race and by other factors. The numbers show a performance gap between races. The gap is present all the way through school and it appears in SAT scores as well.
Racism cannot account for this reality.
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lynette, you wrote:
“My husband received his Ph.D. in biochemistry. I know of several other Blacks with doctoral degrees in the sciences.”
So that’s about five or six people. Not enough to move the meter.
You wrote:
“You also stated that there are not many talented Black writers.”
The reference was to fiction writers. There are few talented black fiction writers. My list includes Ralph Ellison, James Baldwin, Frederick Douglass and Booker T Washington. Ernest Gaines has a solid reputation but I have not read his work. Richard Wright is over-rated.
You asked:
“How would you know that information?”
By reading.
You wrote:
“My father is an outstanding writer with many publications. Oh, and his Ph.D. happens to be in English.”
He may be a good writer of academic treatises and literary criticism. If you tell me his name I will read some of his work and judge it for myself. Anyway, as he will tell you, there are not a lot of blacks with PhDs in English.
Did he get his doctorate in the US?
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Still chatting c*** no_slappz! I don’t why people on this site find him funny!
He’s like an annoying kid nobody likes!
This kid can’t get it through to his thick skull nobody likes him or wants anything to do with him!
Sad really! What will he say next?
No doubt something to do with negativity of blacks and muslims!
Such a TOOL! Such a TOOL! Such a TOOL! Such a TOOL! Such a TOOL! Such a TOOL! Such a TOOL! Such a TOOL!
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angel, you wrote:
“i’m sure more than 50 x white people are on welfare compared to Blacks numberwise.”
Here’s your assignment. Get those numbers. With a little searching you can determine the number of whites on welfare and the number of blacks on welfare. You will find that your estimate is a little off.
You wrote:
“As for wealthy muslim countries, wealthy is wealthy whether it comes from oil or slavery.”
Only Kuwait divides its oil wealth among all it MALE citizens. In the other oil kingdoms, the money goes to either the royal family or the thugs running the government. As a result, most citizens are dirt poor.
However, when you calculate the AVERAGE per capita wealth, things look rosy. It’s not until you realize that a tiny group of people keep everything that you can understand why lots of Iraqis and Iranians still depend on horses and mules.
You wrote:
“Lastly DRAGONS DEN tv show went to Nigeria.!! It rewards inventors and entrepreneurs. No show would go set up in a country if there were no potentials.”
The population of Nigeria is about 100 million. About half of the people are still waiting to get electricity and running water. The country is a dump run by thugs who steal all the oil money. By the way, the only factor keeping the Nigerian oil industry functioning are the foreign (US et. al) professionals who run it. When the Nigerians seized the refineries, the were unable to operate them and they ceased to function. The current government re-hired the American experts and since then things have gotten better.
But in a country where no one knows a thing about physics and chemistry there is not much chance of developing anything more sophisticated than a wheel.
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There aren’t a lot of blacks with Ph.D.’s in English?! Woooow! I’m a black woman getting a Ph.D. in Latin American History and half the black academics I know getting Ph.D.’s are getting them in English! I also know several blacks getting degrees in Anthropology, American Studies, and Petroleum Engineering. There are entire organizational bodies dedicated to black people involved in getting X type of graduate degree.
Moreover … What is an “easy” degree? The process of graduate school is grueling! No matter what you are getting the degree in. That’s why most people don’t do it and why many can’t.
It’s amazing to me how no_slapz can use his own personal experience as evidence to back his arguments, but when other people do, its dismissed – because it doesn’t conform to his day-to-day existence or the stats he pulls. If you have 80 people of color tell you they all see the same thing and you pick a study that says, “Well …It’s REALLY X,Y,Z” and it doesn’t conform to your personal narrative – then the real life experiences of PoC don’t matter? They’re invalid? Or “not enough to move the meter”? That’s such a classic move that IIIIIII am moved to laughter … Seriously … I’m dying over here! White people have been pulling that since time immemorial …
Who’s meter? Your meter? Like the worthwhile black writers who have the honor of making your “list”? Have you ever thought that these meters, lists, etc. are rooted in racism from the get go? Just like “merit”? But white people in the U.S. got to decide what “merit” was? Just like whites decide the American literary “canon”? And ideas of “objectivity”?
“Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted.” – A. Einstein
Can we keep no_slapz? He brings laughter to my day!
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No Slappz said:
“angel, you wrote:
“i’m sure more than 50 x white people are on welfare compared to Blacks numberwise.”
Here’s your assignment. Get those numbers. With a little searching you can determine the number of whites on welfare and the number of blacks on welfare. You will find that your estimate is a little off.”
I agree that 50 x is way too high, but YOU are absolutely the LAST person on this blog who should be telling someone to look up his facts. You, sir, have NO FUCKING RESPECT for facts. Sometimes you are so delusional I think you must be a MENTAL PATIENT at some hospital.
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LOL … Abagond you’re so right. He has no respect for them, but he does an excellent job of manipulating them. He’s an expert.
In fact, I bet he can say something and find the facts to support it. Then state the exact opposite and find the facts to back that. Then he can argue with himself …
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@Abagond:
LOL!!! You may have to ban yourself after that word! Ignore the lunatic or make some flippant remark when responding to his posts. He’s like a bad itch, if you stop scratching it goes away.
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lauren, you wrote:
“There aren’t a lot of blacks with Ph.D.’s in English?! Woooow! I’m a black woman getting a Ph.D. in Latin American History and half the black academics I know getting Ph.D.’s are getting them in English!”
According to the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education — cited earlier in this thread — the number of PhDs awarded ot blacks in 2004 was 1869. The breakdown showed Humanities doctorates were 9% of the total. That’s 168 degrees awarded in the humanities. Some were doctorates in English. Any way you slice it, the crowd is small.
You wrote:
“I also know several blacks getting degrees in Anthropology, American Studies, and Petroleum Engineering. There are entire organizational bodies dedicated to black people involved in getting X type of graduate degree.”
No one has contradicted this reality. The question is WHY are the numbers as low as they are?
You asked:
“Moreover … What is an “easy” degree?”
The academic world considers a degree in Library Science to be the easiest. After that, education. Following those two, sociology.
You wrote:
“It’s amazing to me how no_slapz can use his own personal experience as evidence to back his arguments, but when other people do, its dismissed – because it doesn’t conform to his day-to-day existence or the stats he pulls”
I see. You base your claims on anecdotal evidence and ignore a credible source like the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education. But even that journal plays a loose hand with the analysis of the numbers.
Bad math skills are murder when looking at various numbers. Journalists and people who write about soft subjects such as the subjects discussed here regularly distort the numbers they depend on. Sometimes the distortion is willful, but mostly they have no grasp of numbers or logic.
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lynette, you wrote:
“You fail to realize that I have lived among Blacks in academia all of my life, but I realize there is no getting through to you.”
Oh. Does that mean people who have not lived through various experiences cannot hold a valid view?
If you believe what you wrote, you believe humans must forget everything they think they know about the history of man.
Or did you mean that because you have lived among black academics, you expect to see black academics everywhere you look?
In other words, adaptive expectations. It’s sunny today, therefore it will be sunny tomorrow.
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With regard to:
“In other words, ADAPTIVE EXPECTATIONS. It’s sunny today, therefore it will be sunny tomorrow”
I think the term you are alluding to here is ‘induction’principle, and the same very example of the sun rising was utilised by the English philosopher, Bertrand Russell in his book ‘Problems of Philosophy’ Ch6, entitled
‘On Induction’
http://www.ditext.com/russell/rus6.html
And once again
We would have gotten away with it – except for those pesky kids…Scooooby Dooooooooooo
he he he he he
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j,
I think the term I wanted was the one I used — “adaptive expectations.”
Feel free to bandy terms and use your choice — induction principle.
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Thank you…
Just to clarify, it was not the term per se (ie ‘adaptative expectations’) that I saw as ‘problematic’.
It was rather the use of the analogy (ie of the sun per se rising) which caught my attention, knowing it to be an argument within Philosophy to demonstrate another point.
If you follow my drift…
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I just poked my head into this blog and no slappz is already annoying the hell out of me.
Nonetheless, a few things:
“Rootedness” is certainly a factor. I don’t think anyone (except for no slappz) would seriously argue that indigenous Americans, Australians and New Zealanders do not suffer from the legacy of colonialism.
But culture, class and history have a lot to do with it. For example:
CULTURE: Chinese, Japanese, Koreans and Indians share one thing: their cultures place enormous value on getting a “good education” and a “good job” (I use quotes because what they consider a good job is not a universally shared value).
Maori culture does not focus on this to the same extent. They are more concerned with church, family and sport. Obviously many Maori succeed academically as well, but they are not pushed by parental and societal expectations in the way that the aforementioned Asians are.
CLASS: Poverty and its associated ills – low education and social problems – are often self-sustaining, because children grow up without role models of advancement, and lack the wealth and opportunities to break out of the cycle. This is common in indigenous communities as well as in African-Americans. One reason African immigrants succeed so markedly in the US and elsewhere is that a great many of them were already from wealthy, educated and privileged classes in their original countries. In this sense their children have good role models for pursuing education and high-paying work.
HISTORY: no slappz mentioned the example of Haiti. Haiti’s story of chronic poverty cannot be told without reference to France’s colonial exploitation, which set the tone for its subsequent history. US interference only made things worse, perpetuating it as a kleptocracy in which the rich are very rich and the poor starve.
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eurasian sensation, you wrote:
““Rootedness” is certainly a factor. I don’t think anyone (except for no slappz) would seriously argue that indigenous Americans, Australians and New Zealanders do not suffer from the legacy of colonialism…But culture, class and history have a lot to do with it. For example:”
Gee. Suffer? Yeah. The “native Americans” — many of whom are descended from members of nomadic tribes and tribes that were violent — had rough encounters with the US Cavalry way back in the late 1800s.
Eventually, however, the “native Americans” were given land, rights to the minerals and resources beneath the land and more recently, the right to operate casinos. There have been numerous programs designed to improve their education and to create opportunties for them.
Alaska takes good care of Eskimos, who get a regular royalty check derived from North Slope oil sales.
Life is not fair, but America has taken many steps to help the “native Americans” improve their lives. Many of those native Americans have chosen self-defeating alternatives.
As you noted, some cultures embrace practices that bring prosperity, and some cultures devote themselves to perpetuating failure.
As for Haiti and the tired excuse of the French colonialists, well, sorry, but every part of the Western Hemisphere was settled by colonists from Europe.
Claiming that Haiti’s existence was impaired by France might have held water if we were living in the 1800s. But not today. The country is surrounded by a modern world. But its residents have chosen backwardness.
The world could simply walk away and treat Haiti with indifference. What would happen? Would Haiti organize itself and become a stable productive nation enjoying increasing prosperity? Or would it slide even further and get even closer to a state of Nature?
Obviously, if left to handle its own affairs, Haiti would disintegrate.
Today, about one-third of its national income is from remittance payments sent to Haiti from Haitians and other benefactors living elsewhere in the world.
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@ no slappz:
“But its residents have chosen backwardness.”
As a person of white European background (if I’m right in assuming that’s what you are), do you not see that there might be a difference in your ability to “choose” your life path, as opposed to someone born into a slum in Haiti?
We are not all born with equal options in this world.
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@Eurasian Sensation:
I enjoy reading your comments on your blog. It’s quite good. 😀 However, please try not to respond to that person. He’s been vying for some attention…any attention. It’s sad, really.
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@ leigh204: it’s kinda like when I have a scab… I know I shouldn’t pick at it, but it’s so tempting!
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@Eurasian Sensation:
Picking a scab would be a perfect analogy for you know whom. LOL! 😛
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LOL
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What I love about NoSlappz is his classic Hitlerean big lie strategy. Like Hitler, he argues logically from false postulates and then refuses to let anyone challenge said postulates, usually by haring off in another direction.
For example, the idea that “peoples” are actors analogous to individuals, that they choose according to the strictures of free will, that – like indivisuals – they are indeed the same entity year to fear, even century to century… All of this is absoultely unscientific hogwash that’s been disproven time and again by the social sciences. Nations are not actors in the psychological sense of the word: they are another sort of entity entirely, a social entity.
But NS knows that many people gloss nations as if they were human beings, so he uses a logic appropriate to, say, drug rehab or whatever, in order to criticize their “choices” – ignoring history, culture, society and everything that we know of how these things work.
It’s classical “big lie” rhetoric of the kind Hitler perfected: argue logically from ridiculous postulates which you will under no circumstances discuss.
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“it’s kinda like when I have a scab… I know I shouldn’t pick at it, but it’s so tempting!”
That’s the spirit. Ridicule, ridicule and then ridicule!
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eurasian sensation, you wrote:
“As a person of white European background (if I’m right in assuming that’s what you are)…”
English, Swedish and Austrian
You asked:
“…do you not see that there might be a difference in your ability to “choose” your life path, as opposed to someone born into a slum in Haiti?”
This is the typical black dodge. According to you, the past has such lasting and devastating effects that it is impossible for blacks to move from their primitive state in Haiti to the 21st century.
How did Singapore go from an asian backwater to one of the most prosperous and successful economies in the world in about 40 years?
What were the factors that allowed South Korea to develop from a poor rural naton into one of the world’s most prosperous countries in 50 years?
Next, you should look into the vast efforts of American citizens to bring education and advancement to the lives of Haitians. Unfortunately, their efforts have failed almost completely.
Haiti is a violent, dangerous and ungoverned nation. Its problems are the results of the behavior of its citizens. No one else.
If you claim Haitians themselves are not responsible, then you believe in lawlessness and anarchy.
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thad,
Your post made no sense at all. Try again.
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See what I mean, folks?
LEt me ask the crowd: anyone else out there have any difficulty at all understanding my post?
Like I said: he argues logically from false postulates and categorically refuse to examine any of said postulates. In this case, the postulate is that nations act as if they were individuals.
If you can’t understand those big words, NS, may I suggest a dictionary?
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thaddeus blanchette,
Your earlier post contains several meaningless words that make several sentences unintelligible. However, the overall point of your comment was to play the ad hominem game on a new level. You wrote a few sentences that boil down to calling me a liar.
Okay. Suit yourself.
As far as “false postulates” go, you should feel free to offer your own analysis of any “postulate” I mention. Instead, you offer generally silly superficial responses that suggest you really have no grasp of the topics.
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Your earlier post contains several meaningless words that make several sentences unintelligible.
And your post don’t?
However, the overall point of your comment was to play the ad hominem game on a new level.
Expect more of this!
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Thad:
Your comment about No Slappz made perfect sense to me and my active vocabulary is no where near as large as No Slappz’s.
It was not ad hominem either since you were talking about his style of argument and not about him as a person.
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So what about the social experiment about ignoring “You-Know-Who”???
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@D&nni:
LOL! I want it to work. Oh, please….oh please…oh please. 😉
*crosses fingers*
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I just wish that troll could just shut up and leave!
He’s like the kid nobody likes because the kid thinks he’s smarter then he actually is!
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as long as people keep engaging him in responding to his posts then he will never stop or go away.
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