This is my summary of “Tourism Black and Blues” by Ana Paula da Silva, a PhD in anthropology who currently teaches at the University of São Paulo as a post-doctoral fellow. She is also a gringo watcher and wife of commenter Thaddeus Blanchette:
English-speaking media is so strong in the world that how Black American tourists see Brazil affects how Black Brazil sees itself. Black Brazil sees itself partly through black gringo eyes.
Tour operators in America use two things to draw blacks to see Brazil: the beautiful and supposedly easy women of Rio and the African roots of the black city of Salvador in the north-east.
The women: Black American men tend to see Brazilian women as more natural, easy-going, sexy and less overweight than their own women back home. Which is strange: Brazilian women, in fact, use more cosmetic surgery and are more uptight about sex – and many are overweight. Brazilian men would also be surprised to learn that Brazilian women do not stand up to them.
African roots: Surely the heritage tourists who come to see Brazil’s black culture first-hand are more serious. Well, no:
- Few bother to learn its history or read its great writers.
- They tend to see Black Brazil as somehow part of their own history even though it never was – it is a completely separate branch of the African Diaspora.
- They apply their own ideas of what is truly “African” to Brazil. That determines what they see and know, like capoeira, but not, say, black symbolist poets like Cruz e Souza.
All this gives them a rather odd picture of Brazil.
If Black America were viewed the same way there would be no Richard Wright or Malcolm X – because who needs to know the history and the literature? Jazz would be dismissed because it has no “African” beat. Black Baptist churches would be seen as sell-outs for not worshipping African gods. The Gullah of the Carolina Sea Islands would be the “true” Black America because its culture is more purely African.
Black Americans, by overvaluing what is “African” in Brazilian culture, undervalue what is Brazilian, what is special, what is new and now. As if Brazil was stuck in 1600.
You could argue that tourists do this all over the world: what tourist ever sees the “true” Japan or the “true” Greece? Well, yes. But the trouble comes when Black Americans go back home and help to shape America’s idea of what Brazil is like, particularly of Black Brazil. That in turn gets pumped out to the whole world and so comes all the way back to Brazil itself and its blacks.
Blacks may not be particularly powerful within America itself, but because they live in the land of the world’s biggest media machine, their ideas about blackness get carried all over the world, shaping how blacks everywhere see themselves.
For the blacks of Brazil this means that the richness of their history and culture has to fight against whatever Black Americans see as more “truly black”.
Three icons of the Black Brazil tourists know little about: Cruz e Souza, Abdias do Nascimento and Milton Santos.
See also:
- O Mangue:Tourism Black and Blues – read the whole article
- Brazil
- Afro-Latinos – two-thirds live in Brazil
- stereotype
- the single story
- my thing for Brazil
- white gaze
This is an interesting article that raises many issues. Firstly, I think I would need to read and see the entire article before I could do it a fair assessment.
Here are some thoughts that spring to my mind, in no random order, after reading the article.
1. The science of anthropology I believe has not fully tackled itself on the issue of ‘cultural relativism’ if I can use that term and I still have issues with this ‘social science’, which would take too long to go in here. Perhaps the author is somewhat ’embedded’ by the underlying assumptions of this social science. However, as I said I have not seen or read the full article.
2. What are the ‘differences’ if any, between African-Brazilians and say African-Surinamese??
3. What is the ‘differences’ between the aforesaid groups and groups like African-Mauritians, African Seychllians etc located in the Indian ocean if any, because of what is termed ‘the other slave trade’
4. Is there such a thing as a global ‘African/Black’ identity?
5. When is it appropriate to simply refer to an individual ‘Black’ culture, and/or when is it appropriate to refer to a commonality?
Hmmm!!
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Wow, a powerful thought! And, yet so true. However, how many blacks in the U.S. really dig underneath the facade of black history? All too many of us are happy with the same old tales about the slave trade as if the beginning of blacks in the Americas begins there. So, the impression of Africa and Africans is built on the imagination of blacks in the U.S. while very few know any Africans intimately. Very few even know other blacks in South, Central and North America (few people realize Mexico is North America and there are black people that have lived there for thousands of years) or the Caribbean.
Unfortunately, now, per this post this imaginary black history, and imaginary African is being circulated around the world. My thoughts have changed over the years and I have come to realize that black people have been the Americas so long that what we see as African may never have derived from Africa but, originated here in the Americas with blacks thousands of years ago. As in the post, some things that blacks from the U.S. see in Brazil as African, is wholely Brazilian.
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I have to disagree with the point that you are trying to get across here Abagond. Although I agree on some points, I don’t think the manner in which way black americans view themselves is as destructive or as polemic as you say it is. And it certainly doesn’t affect black Brazilians in such a detrimental way.
First of all, I agree that there are several facets of the African Diaspora, however, I don’t believe that Black Americans have the power nor the numbers to render something “black” enough or “african” enough. Most people I have spoken to have been able to recognize that Brazilian culture in general is a rich mix of African, European, and Indigenous influences, and titling something as solely “black” or “african” is very limiting.
Additionally, one must look at the positive aspects of Black American culture. For years Brazilians have held themselves in high regard for being a “raceless” society, but countless amounts of racism have occurred in the fields that impact the most lives i.e. (government, medicine, technology, etc…) One rarely sees blacks as vanguards in any of these fields, and many are relegated to live in over-populated favelas.
So, although here in the U.S. things aren’t extremely better, one thing that Black Americans can say is that they have fought for their human rights and have demanded to have their minority recognized; while many Black Brazilians can’t say the same.
There are undoubtedly several problems with Black American culture, but I by no means believe they are changing on a grand scale the way Black Brazilians view themselves.
I’m sorry for the length of my comment. 😀
Ate logo!
http://www.notlikereallife.blogspot.com
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Does not Eddie look a lot like Cruz e Souza?
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Sorry Eddie Murphy!
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@ J. I just read your comment, and I think you brought out some really interesting points.
4. Is there such a thing as a global ‘African/Black’ identity?
5. When is it appropriate to simply refer to an individual ‘Black’ culture, and/or when is it appropriate to refer to a commonality?
And all I can say is that there isn’t a global “African/Black” identity. The problem is that so many people want to limit the multiple definitions of a group of people; especially when it comes to regarding people of color. We dare not say that there is a global “European/White” identity. Many are quick to distinguish the differences in language, customs, and traditions of the various European groups, but the same can not be said for Blacks. Sure many of us may look similar or share similar characteristics, but sometimes the similarities stop there.
http://www.notlikereallife.blogspot.com
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I think for the most part though, Brazil is still off the beaten path for most black American tourists. When most of us take international trips, I think Europe and the Caribbean are the most frequented destinations. But we’re talking about those that actually go abroad. Only around 25% of Americans have passports, probably much less than that for black Americans. And most Americans that travel abroad prefer Europe over S. America.
So how much can black Americans be effecting Brazil when relatively few of them go there?
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Thank you for totally polluting my image of Cruz e Souza for the rest of my life, Ensayn! 😀
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I’ll let Ana answer most of the comments here, but the answer to Tulio’s question, “How much can black Americans be effecting Brazil when relatively few of them go there?” is two part.
First of all, it’s not Brazil per sethat they are affecting but Black Brazil.
Secondly, this has to do with the fact that American blackness is now hegemonic in the world when it comes to thinking about Black people.
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Great post Abagond.
OMG Ensayn! he so does maybe they are related never know LOL
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My response to this interesting article is: Aren’t Black Brazilians accountable for how Black Americans (and other Black tourists) see them? If Black Americans are getting the wrong image of Black Brazil, shouldn’t Black Brazilians inform Black American tourists about their true heritage, so that Black Americans don’t go away with stereotypes?
I’m of Black Jamaican descent, and scores of Black Americans travel to Jamaica each year. It is up to Black Jamaicans to give Black Americans or tourists in general the “real deal” when they visit Jamaica. You cannot blame the tourists for what they see when traveling to your country.
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@ Thaddeus….Sorry bout that…LOL!!!
@ Aiyo…Who knows they could very well be related. When we really look at the annals of black history in the western hemisphere its quite possible.
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Love this post!
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^^^
It annoys me when someone refers to a “Latino” as “Spanish”.
Makes me recall an interesting conversation that I once had in college with a classmate who happened to be an actual Spainard. He bemoaned the fact that, in his words, “there weren’t any other Spanish people around.” I pointed out that there were many Puerto Ricans, Peruvians and the like around and that they speak Spanish. He quickly retorted, “No, I mean REAL Spanish people!”
As for Brazil being a hot tourist spot for black Americans, I have heard that before. Yet, have never personally met a black American who has visited the country or had any desire to. I agree with a previous poster. Europe and the Caribbean seem to be more “in demand”. I agree with some of this post though. The largely black population and the “exotic allure” of Brazil most likely drive its appeal for the black American tourist who actually do visit.
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Ana writing, Thaddeus Translating…
Dear J,
I`ll try to answer your questrions one by one.
1) I`m not quite sure what you mean by anthropology not having “fully tackled the notion of relativity”, given that anthropology arguably invented this notion in the social sciences and certainly popularized it all across the world. But what I do not understand is what you think is relative in my article. Perhaps you could explain?
2 and 3) There’s plenty that’s different, beginning with the mother-lode of all culture: language. As Paul Gilroy points out (and yes, like my husband, I am very much a fan of Gilroy), blackness is experienced as a diaspora which is not a homogenous negritude. Each situation in the diaspora created its own cultures and histories which, while linked, are not the same.
4) No, there is no global black identity. There may, perhaps, be global black politics, at least in theory. In practice, I see very little of this.
5) I would say that it is never appropriate to refer to a black culture unless you ground it in a particular historical experience.
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Regardless of whether American Blacks visit other countries of the Diaspora, America has many Black intellects devoted to a world view of blackness. Much of it is not even under the discipline of anthropology, but of myth and wishful thinking guiding the theories. These people are supported by large universities and to challenge them, one is labeled as sell out, Tom and the rest.
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Ana writing, Thaddeus translating…
Ensayn, though I don’t know what you mean about blacks being in the Americas foor thousands (as opposed to hundreds) of years, I do agree with the general thrust of your post!
Btw, I don`t think that Cruz e Souza looks like Eddie Murphy, but… 😀
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During the late sixties, I remember an Ugandan friend tell me that he thought my Afro-centric friend was more African than Africans.
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Ana writing, Thaddeus translating…
Dali,
The point you bring up is particular to minorities. When a group is in the miority, the only way it can grab power is by closing ranks and presuming that there’s no differences whatsoever. Avtah Brah, and Indian scholar, points this up. The problem is that such a view ends up cresting a minoritarian and hegemonic view that loses much of the actual complex back-and-forth that really constitutes domination. Subjectivities and, in fact, entire collectivities can be lost in this sort of manuevering.
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Ana writing, Thaddeus translating…
Patricia writes…
My response to this interesting article is: Aren’t Black Brazilians accountable for how Black Americans (and other Black tourists) see them? If Black Americans are getting the wrong image of Black Brazil, shouldn’t Black Brazilians inform Black American tourists about their true heritage, so that Black Americans don’t go away with stereotypes?
Patricia, imperialism is as real a power relation as racism. So let`s couch your questrion in terms of racism and see what you think:
Aren’t Blacks accountable for how whites and other people see them? If whites are getting the wrong image of blacks, shouldn’t blacks inform whites about their true heritage, so that whites don’t go away with stereotypes?
Patricia, I understand what you’re trying to say, but neither I nor any other black Brazilian is morally responsible for being your tourist guide when you come to my country. Aside from all my other responsabilities and projects, I am not “speaker to gringos”. The minimum that I can do, I am doing with articles like this one. I am not responsible for gringo prejudices regarding Brazil.
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Thaddeus continues to translate for Ana…
Dali,
One more point. You comment the following…
So, although here in the U.S. things aren’t extremely better, one thing that Black Americans can say is that they have fought for their human rights and have demanded to have their minority recognized; while many Black Brazilians can’t say the same.
This is an extremely good example of the gringo prejudices and ignorance that I`m talking about.
Have you read Brazilian black history, Dali? If not, based on what are your views if not preconceived notions of Brazil?
Black Brazilians haven`t fought for recognition…? My God. This statement is absolutely shocking to any Brazilian who has studied our history. That gentlemen at the bottom of the post, Abdias do Nascimento, founded the black theater in the 1950s. He was a senator in Brazil when the U.S. had no black senators at all. Brazil has had a very active and fertile black movement and always had. This is something you`d know if you’d pick up any book on black Brazilian history.
But Americans don’t do that, do they? They apprehend Brazilian blackness through The Lonely Planet and the occasional Brazilian acquaintence.
This is absurd.
If you were to go to France or involve yourself with the French, you`d read about the French history, right? You`d at least acquaint yourself with the fact that they`d had a revolution and several wars with Germany. But when it comes to Afro-Brazil, hell, why read anything? I mean it`s not like they have a real history… right?
Again, as I point out in my article, ignorance is typical of tourism. What bothers me is that it is occuring among people whom one would suspect would be a bit more discerning in their attitudes. I very much doubt that a black American would go to France and say “hey, but at least we have democracy in the States, unlike you French.” But you have said essentially the same thing about Brazil, Dali and – in my experience – your view is very typical among black americans.
You don’t find this attitude in the least bit ironic and – perhaps – patronizing and imperialistic?
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Is there any historical books you could recommend in regards to Afro-Brazilians in English? Thanks.
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@ Thaddeus, I don’t think my comment shows black patronization at all. In many ways the days of Jim Crow unified blacks in America than divide them; and I am trying to say that the same type of unification hasn’t happened in Brazil. Instead of classifying themselves as “black”, Brazilians have multiple descriptions of colors than continue to divide the populations. And yes, I would try to acquaint myself to any culture and tradition of the people I may want to visit in the future.
Furthermore, how is my thinking Imperialistic? Far from it. I am not authorizing Americans to come and take over any country or any people, that is far from it. I say to look at examples of successful movements for people of color and learn from them. The very same can be said on the part of Black Americans as well.
In fact, I am an Nigerian, and I would be very offended if any people or nation tried to influence mine. However, there is a unity between Black Americans that I feel is greatly needed for countless groups of people of color. Countless times have I seen white people take the resources and money of the people of my nation; and I believe that if there was more unity and less corruption in my country, we could have advanced in more ways. However, the primary divisions of different ethnic groups and religions has continued to deter the country’s efforts.
I feel the same can be said for Brazilians of color; and other groups around the world.
Its about learning and molding what you learn to your own circumstances. That’s all. Nothing imperialistic about it.
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“I understand what you’re trying to say, but neither I nor any other black Brazilian is morally responsible for being your tourist guide when you come to my country”…
And that comment. So then what are you supposed to do? Sit around and continue to let your dislike of Black Americans’ and their imperialism ferment? Action is key.
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abagond:
“You could argue that tourists do this all over the world: what tourist ever sees the “true” Japan or the “true” Greece?”
i agree.
I think the only way to trully understand a country is to live there. Then, you experience it down to its core. All the reading in the world and hotel vacations in Rio wont show you the beauty of it, alonside the poverty of it. Living there is the only way.
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Ana says (Thaddeus translating)…
Few good books on race in Brazil have been translated. Here are some off the top of my head:
Blackness Without Ethnicity: Constructing Race in Brazil, by L. Sansone
The Mystery of Samba, by Hermano Vianna
Black into White, by Thomas Skidmore
The Negro in Brazilian Society, by Florestan Fernandes
Toward a Global Idea of Race, by Denise Silva. Though not specifically about black brazil, it is written by a black brazilian working at the bleeding edge of race analysis.
Most American authored books re-invent the wheel by “discovering” that racial democracy doesn’t exist in Brazil, something first explored by Guerreiro Ramos and Florestan Fernandes in the 1950s, for Pete’s sake! (We know, we know already. Move on…) But looking at Amazon.com, I can’t find any of their major works translated and in print.
This explains quite a bit regarding my point: how is it I can find book after book written by gringos about blacks in Brazil, but in English there is next to nothing written by Brazilians? When gringos are “discovering” in 2009 what the Brazilian social sciences have been discussing for 50 years, then I’d say there is a problem. This sort of thing is generally called “cultural imperialism”.
This problem is illustrated by some of Dali’s presumptions about Brazil and the U.S.
Dali, I have dozens of books on my desk about the U.S. civil rights struggle and I know that it was neither a unified nor harmonious movement. Nor was it exclusively black nationalist: white and other people played significant roles. “Unification” didn’t so much allow it to be successful as good planning, preserverance and – very crucially – the recruitment of non-black and non-american allies. That is what moved civil rights forward, not some great unified uprising by black americans who one day all went forward into the sun in lockstep. The amazing thing about the civil rights struggle is that it more-or-less worked in spite of the infighting and disunity.
That’s right: more-or-less worked. Because if you’ll note the county-by-county election returns from the last twelve years, you’ll see that the largest concentrations of black population in the U.S. south are somehow consistently voting Republican. Forgive me if I am being ignorant here, but how is that possible if they truly have one man one vote in the U.S.?
It is also worth remembering that when the U.S. went through civil rights, we were passing through 20 years of U.S.-backed military dictatorship where little protest of any sort was allowed. All of our social movements were repressed during this period.
Do you think that that might possibly have played into the fact the Brazil didn’t go through the same political processes in the 1960s and ’70s as the U.S.? I do. Especially given the fact that the Brazilian black movement was strong both before and after the dictatorship.
In other words, Dali, there is no conclusive proof that Brazil`s multi-valenced view of race has “retarded” our civil rights in comparison with the U.S. There is much proof that the worst effect on Brazilian civil rights of all sorts was caused by two decades of military rule. But black americans often like to believe that it has been a superior understanding of race which has somehow pushed them forward while brazilian multi-valenced racial beliefs has kept us back.
Well, if that’s the case, how do we elect more blacks to our senate than the U.S.? How were the quilombo communities recognized? Why are we having a national debate on affirmative action? How come we have a Ministry of Racial Relations when the U.S. doesn`t? Why is racism illegal in Brazil when it isn`t in the U.S? And I have never seen black voters being massively disenfranchised in Brazilian elections. Obviously, then, we must be doing something right.
My point is not that racism doesn`t exist in Brazil or that any of the above do not have their problems and corruptions. But I feel it is simply social-evolutionary and ultimately racist to feel that American blacks have a superior understanding of race and that this has given them a much better position than Brazilian blacks. This strikes me as a hidden form of social evolutionary thought which goes back to a black form of internalized racism of the early 20th century. Back then, it was relatively common to hear black american leaders claim that american blacks were the most “evolved” in the world due to their “constant competition with the anglo-saxon”.
I don`t feel much releived that this discourse has moved from biology to culture when it consistently situates black and brown Brazilians as politically backwards when compared to their american cousins.
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Well I just glanced at the topic and a few of the comments and it’s obvious that some or more educated than others. But I would most definitely have to disagree that Black Americans influence what Black Brasilians think of themselves.
Without a doubt Black American culture has an influence on cultures all around the world, unfortunately mainly hip hop (its funny seeing whites, Hispanics and Asians with wave caps just for example). But “Brazilians” not just black Brazilians have to take responsibility. Me coming from Texas will not allow someone from Bahia or Rio Grande do Sul for that matter, tell me what Texas is about, especially if they’ve never been or visited for only 10 days. There are many proud black Brazilians who take pride in they journey, their history and culture. But there are also many there who don’t. Though Brazilians uses what I believe a complex color scheme to describe themselves many do deny any black that may flow through their veins and only proclaim any blackness when its convenient.
And in regard to the Brazilian women, without a doubt there are many beautiful Brazilian girls there. But in my travels, I’ve seen beautiful women in every country I’ve been no matter what ethnicity or color. But there are just as many not so attractive women in Brazil as there are in North America or any where. There’s also many people overweight in Brazil too, not just in the US. I also believe that Brazilian women do not enjoy sex any more than any other groups of women. Majority of these women that the “gringos” return to their land bragging about are prostitutes in which they do cater to their clients much different than prostitutes elsewhere. It’s a dream and gringos buy it.
I respect the Brazilian culture and its people. But I still wish blacks there grow stronger and take a greater pride in their race and color. All the people of color in that country and hardly any of them are in the public eye (if so, they are mainly musicians and athletes). Black Americans are far ahead of Blacks in Brazil, though Blacks in America still remain behind. I must say, me being a dark skinned Black American have experienced more racism in Brazil than I have in America, and the racism there comes more from the people of color in Brazil than the whites, though they dish it out also. But when they discover I’m American, its all good and I’m excepted. I’ve read a lot on Brazil and currently live there and still there’s much about this country that I just don’t know. But for example, I’ve received more love in a small town called Monte Mor (more white) in Sao Paulo, than I did in Salvador where most of the people look like me, in Rio it could go either way. But these topics are good because they’re educational.
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Also Thaddeus, I really appreciate your comments, especially your last one. You can say what you want about the civil rights here in America and its true that other races participated, no has ever argued that. But atleast we can say where were there to fight and we do reap some benefit today. I don’t know anything that runs smoothly, especially in the arena of politics, organizations or whatever group or cause people have joined in unison. So don’t attack the civil rights movement in the US. At least an attempt at freedom and equality was given. It beats sitting on the morro in one of thousands favelas drinking Skol all day doing nothing. And that was the purpose of the civil rights movement to be able to vote. People have the right to vote for whatever party they want to, so what’s it to you if a black votes republican, its there right. At least they vote. In Brazilian they vote only because it’s the law, it’s mandatory. But blacks voting republican in America is just as bad as the naïve Brazilians that allow a politican to come into their neighborhood, buy them alcohol in return for a vote. That’s why selling alcohol during election time there now is against the law. Also don’t blame America for Brazil not having a civil rights movement. Also you may have a few more black political officials in brazil than in America, but blacks only represent 13% of the population in America, far less than the number of blacks in Brazil which holds the largest group of blacks outside of Africa.
Affirmative action is needed in brazil but its flawed. for example, at the federal universities there all those who enter by passing the test are white who had private education but when they are white and not smart enough to get in, that’s when they pull out the family photo album that’s been hid in the basement and say look, my grandfather was black, my such and such was black…And don’t speak about the Ministry of Racial Relations there, its set up to look pretty. Tell me what has this branch of government accomplished??? Go to the favelas (ghetto) what are the peoples color there? What group of people lack education most in Brazil? Lack jobs? Blacks! Racism Is illegal in Brazil but it is also in America. Of course America is not perfect though many people abroad think it is and hate America because of their belief but I know for a fact had I been born black in Brazilian, I would already be dead, in jail or a drug lord. Brazil boasts about the mix of races but its no place for a black woman or man. You have no value there.
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I tried to comment on the original post but for some reason I was unable to.
I think the problem might be the so-called “single story” and stereotypical image of a country, culture or a group. The same group can be seen differently – it all depends on who’s watching. Like any other stereotype, it’s quite different than reality. It’s even more complicated if a country (culture, group) is associated with a certain myth that tourists share, especially if it concerns them, their culture, and their heritage.
In case of tourism, it’s a bit complicated because countries benefit from tourism. So, if believing in hot women, party time at Rio carnival or African roots culture will bring tourists (and their money) in Brazil, I don’t think it’s easy to break those stereotypes (or the myths).
What is interesting in this article (written by a Brazilian black woman) is that the sense of belonging and shared heritage is quite different than is often expressed here (@ Abagond’s). I’ll take a wild guess and say most of the people who post here are Americans- even more, African-Americans. I don’t know any of these people personally, but their posts reveal somewhat different picture. The posts seem like most of the people see some profound, heritage and culture shared by black people: black people only, and all black people all over the world. Like it’s implied that being black always comes first. Ana Paula’s article, on the other hand, reveals somewhat different picture: being a member of a country comes first. It’s not the same to be a black person in Brazil and in the US.
My stereotypes about Brazil
I always try to stay away from any stereotypes about certain country or culture, but sometimes it’s impossible to fully resist them. What is interesting here, is that my stereotypes about Brazil don’t really include “loose women” or “sex tourism”.
I think the stereotypes about Brazil I am closest are “football” “all mixed people nation”. I know these are as faulty as any other stereotypes, but they don’t really include anything about “more natural” people, nor African culture roots (for some reason, I always thought diaspora wasn’t the best- or any good- for searching one culture’s roots, unless you want to explore culture in diaspora).
@ Abagond
You could argue that tourists do this all over the world: what tourist ever sees the “true” Japan or the “true” Greece?
What’s interesting about Greece is that some people (mostly west European people) go to Greece to explore roots of western culture. After all, Greece was the cradle of European civilization, right! (riiiigh?) They go to Athens and other places expecting.. I am not quite sure what, but whatever they want that’s not the reality. They want to see the myth. So clever souvenirs salesmen try to create that myth for them in order to earn some money. Of course, Greece itself benefits from tourist money, so they don’t do much to teach people reality; myth sells better.
By the way, I know a story of a British woman who was so bored during visit to Athenian Acropolis (often seen- rightly or not- as the place where European civilization was born), that she was very happy when her tourist guide said it was time to go back to the hotel. “Finally!” she said “Back to civilization!”
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Hi, Ana! Thank you for the list of books – and of course the article itself! I hope I can find at least one of those books through the library.
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confused:
I would be interested to know what you think of this post:
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Thanks for the list Ana! I will try to ferret them out somehow, again thank you!
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@ Ana,
Ana writing, Thaddeus translating…
“Ensayn, though I don’t know what you mean about blacks being in the Americas foor thousands (as opposed to hundreds) of years…”
From Wikipedia;
“The Olmec flourished during Mesoamerica’s Formative period, dating roughly from 1400 BCE to about 400 BCE…”
Wikipedia among other sources point to the so called “Olmecs” as “flourishing” from 1400 BCE…This alone puts blacks in the Americas for thousands of years. Yet, when we think about the Olmecs “flourshing” from 1400 BCE to 400 BCE we have to consider how many years it was from the time the so called Olmecs arrived and how many years it was they thrived here before they reached a point of”flourishing.” Again this alone could be another 2000 years before they began to flourish.
The so called Olmecs are just one group of black people that have been agreed upon by people of all “races” that have occured. Many others speak of blacks in the Americas in addition to the Olmecs and long before the Olmecs.
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I dunno about that.
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I do, Tulio. I’ve lived here for decades and I get all over the place. While sure, Americans are probably on the whole fatter, Brazilians also run out a series of unattractive physcial attributes more often than Americans do, such as bad teeth, skin disease, nutritional illness, etc.
But let’s be more specific: attraction is subjective (aside from some very general characteristics such as bodily symetry and the like) and this is quite provable. Your view of “attractive” isn’t the same as mine. So when you claim there are more “attractive” women in Brazil and that this is a general truth, you’re stating a logical fallacy. “Attractive” to you, perhaps.
Currently prodding Ana to read posts and respond…
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Of course, it’s all opinion, but judging by all the the comments of the beauty threads in this blog, I think many of the guys here have similar ideas of what is attractive.
I remember from the second I stepped off the bus in Rio, just standing right there in the rodoviaria waiting for a taxi I was like “dayum!” everywhere I looked. And that was just the bus station, not even getting to the beaches and Lapa yet.
Sure, not all Brazilian women are beauties, and I admit guys do tend to over exoticize them, but I think a greater percentage of them are on average prettier. I think it’s because of the mixing and the fact that people with mixed heritage do often inherit the best of both worlds.
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““Black women were once at the center of black men’s lives, as wives, mothers, lovers and partners… However, in this generation, black women have become somewhat of a nuisance, a burden, and perhaps even a pariah in black men’s lives…
For the first time ever, large and growing numbers of black men have the option to ask what they perceive to be a legitimate question: Are black women necessary?”
http://aalbc.com/reviews/dont_blame_it_on_rio.htm
Damn, I guess anything is better than a plain ole black woman these days…guess there’s no hope for me
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Thaddeus translating for Ana Paula…
I originally wanted to write a long response to James. But much to the disgust of my husband (who likes nothing more than to spew words by the yard), I realized that I only had to point out one thing.
This is James belief as to how black Brazilians spend their day. We “sit… in one of thousands favelas drinking Skol all day doing nothing.”
In other words, we are lazy, poverty-stricken achoholics who are too bamboozled by the powers that be and the ideology of racial democracy to do anything for ourselves.
I would like to thank James for giving me a sterling example of the ignorance and arrogance my article pointed out. While there are many black americans positively engaged with black Brazil, far too many more think exactly as James do and believe themselves to be a superior, more “advanced” and more “evolved” version of blackness.
James recites some of the grossest sterotypes of black Brazilians that I could possibly imagine.
With “allies” like him, who needs white bigots?
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Thaddeus translating for Ana Paula…
Abagond, I love the “back to civilization” story! Heh, heh….
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I curious , could one give a better citation than wikipedia on the Olmecs, because how did they get to America and since their isn’t anything such as race in the scientific community, who is it that agrees these people had the same features as the some African.
Being Black in this country has to do with a construct, it has no scientific basic. It seems when Black people accept this pseudo science we can have no argument against eugenics and phrenology.
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Ensayin:
“Wikipedia among other sources point to the so called “Olmecs” as “flourishing” from 1400 BCE…This alone puts blacks in the Americas for thousands of years. Yet, when we think about the Olmecs “flourshing” from 1400 BCE to 400 BCE we have to consider how many years it was from the time the so called Olmecs arrived and how many years it was they thrived here before they reached a point of”flourishing.” Again this alone could be another 2000 years before they began to flourish.”
Where did you read that the Olmecs were black? that’s not true. The Olmecs were Native American just like the Aztecs and the Mayans.
Broad features are not exclusive of the black race, the stone heads show something that the blacks do not have and that is the typical Asian eyelid. The great majority of scholars who specializes in Mesoamerican archeology and history has regarded this speculations as incorrect, furthermore Wikipedia shows this only as an alternate (and groundless) theory.
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the stone heads show something that the blacks do not have and that is the typical Asian eyelid.
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Huh…….. what is an “Asian” eyelid?
There are “quote” “unquote” sub-saharan Africans with epicanthic folds.
Epicanthic eyefolds are NOT exclusive to the “quote unquote” “Asians” either.
Not every “Asian” has epicanthic eyefolds anyway.
It seems to me these “scholars” are stereotyping facial features on both sides.
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“Huh…….. what is an “Asian” eyelid?
There are “quote” “unquote” sub-saharan Africans with epicanthic folds.
Epicanthic eyefolds are NOT exclusive to the “quote unquote” “Asians” either.
Not every “Asian” has epicanthic eyefolds anyway.
It seems to me these “scholars” are stereotyping facial features on both sides.”
Mongoloid eye folds…. ok? I said that, not the scholars, if I’m wrong then I apologize.
The scholars did say that it’s not a valid theory. There is a lot of evidence that proves that this theory is not true, you may start reading this books to learn more about the Olmecs:
Los Olmecas- Jack Soustelle
I’m sure there must be an English version
About those sub-saharan Africans with ephicantric eyefolds I’d like you to name them and I’d like the source of your information.
I live in Mexico and I’ve seen people with similar features to those stone heads and they are all ethnic Native Americans. (hopefully this won’t be needed to be quoted, after all I live where the Olmecs lived, and we do care to learn about our origins)
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“They have a belief called mejorar la raza where the latinos believe that if they marry and breed with a white person that it purifies and advances the latino bloodline.”
wow, your a complete….well, your incorrect. you obiously have no idea what your talking about. You act like every race is one person. Lainos this, Latinos tha,t like they all do the samw thing. get over yuorself.
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Hmmm…still continuing my trail of thought from my first post
It was Diop who said something like:
“Ancient Egypt should serve as the same kind of model for Africa as ancient Greece served for Europe (ie law, government, religion, architecture, ‘civilisation’ etc)”.
It is in this respect just as England and Germany (two different Western European nations); you can even sight Australia and New Zealand (two diasporic European nations) derive their ‘cultural unity’ from Greece.
Those who descent can be classified as Africans can also follow the European cultural outlook by tracing their ‘cultural unity’ back to Egypt.
It is in this respect one can choose to focus on the ‘cultural unity’ between ‘African Brazilians’ and ‘African Americans’ (especially as the identity of ‘Brazilian’ and ‘American’ is only around 500 years old) rather than differences – just as the Western nations do for Greece (and by extension Rome too).
This would be the political aspect of ‘identity’ notwithstandingthere are many forms of identities, whcih can be forever changing.
On a ‘lighter’ note, forgive the pun here. I observe the addition of the ‘racy’ picture, since my first post, of a lady whose rear is being shown, in a post alluding to Black Brazilian women – but who would not actually be classified as ‘Black’ in Brazil. Kind of reminds me of journalist searching for a picture intheir photo-library but not being able to find the aprropriate one
Hmmm!! – and not a lustful sigh at the luscious peachy rear either…
Thank you!
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It is in this respect one can choose to focus on the ‘cultural unity’ between ‘African Brazilians’ and ‘African Americans’ (especially as the identity of ‘Brazilian’ and ‘American’ is only around 500 years old) rather than differences – just as the Western nations do for Greece (and by extension Rome too).
Hmmm.
The problem is that cultures rarely last more than a couple hundred years at most.
Can you give me one cultural thing black Brazilians and black Americans share with ancient Egypt?
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Sergio said: About those sub-saharan Africans with ephicantric eyefolds I’d like you to name them
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Are you serious?
Look up Khoisan aka San aka Bushman tribe. Very well-known, very ancient African tribe
Nelson Mandela, for pete’s sake, also has epicanthic folds, he is part of the Xhosa tribe.
Africa has every phenotype imaginable (no surprise we ALL came from Africa)
I think it can be said that “no race” has “exclusive” monopoly OR “Limit” on facial features.
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“Hmmm. The problem is that cultures rarely last more than a couple hundred years at most. Can you give me one cultural thing black Brazilians and black Americans share with ancient Egypt?”
With regard to the above. We must not lose sight of the ‘categories’ we are referring to, and/or conflate them.
For Diop et al there would be very little difference in the ‘phenotype’ between Ancient Egyptian, the ‘Black Brazilian’ and the Black American
I deliberately chose not to use the term ‘race’ here.
Just as I believe it was inappropriate to state and refer to ‘culture’ – rarely last more than a couple of hundred of years, soa s to validate a position.
The Western historians who suggests that democracy etc is derived from Greece would have a different concept on how long culture lasts, especially as the zenith of Greek civilisation is c. 300BCE?
Peoples may die but cultural legacies can far outlive them.
Finally Diop wrote a whole section about “Peopling of Africafrom the Nile Valley”. Remembering that it is accepted that life or at the very least the oldest anatomical skulls are derived from that basin.
Many of the nations and African peoples who were taken from places around what would now be modern Nigeria and their corollary places during the slave trade era did not originate there.
For instance Diop suggests the Serer nations came to Senegal from the Nile basin.
Hope this clarifies the perspective of the Diopian position and his issue of ‘cultural unity’ and how it could relate to Blacks in forging an identity.
This was his perspective and analysis of which there are many others that are different that could be sighted.
Thanks!
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@ Thaddeus. I know this is late but obviously you’re not seeing my reasoning. Your tendency to throw in vocabulary such as “retarded” and “backwards” show that you are taking my comments out of context.
Like I said before and like another commenter, James, mentioned, it is about taking action and informing others about your nation and your people.
As one man said, don’t confuse racial co-existence with racial equality…Brazil isn’t a racial democracy.
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Thaddeus and Ana Paula, I figured my comments would strike a nerve. How do you expect to attack Blacks in America and you don’t get a response. I know that comment I made is not true about black brazilians being drunk all day….but it sounded as silly as your comments made about blacks voting republican and the civil rights movement in America. Instead of trying to dominate this topic or belittle others, you should look at and appreciate what blacks in America have accomplished as well as what black Brazilians have accomplished. Bitterness will kill you!
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Hi!!!
Sorry it took me time to get back to these comments, since I have just seen it for the first time. Here is a brief feed back,in capital letters for distinction.
Dear J,
I`ll try to answer your questrions one by one.
1) I`m not quite sure what you mean by anthropology not having “fully tackled the notion of relativity”, given that anthropology arguably invented this notion in the social sciences and certainly popularized it all across the world. But what I do not understand is what you think is relative in my article. Perhaps you could explain?
[WESTERN] ANTHROPOLOGY, IF I CAN CALL IT THAT, ORIGINATED AS A SUBJECT, AT THE TIME OF WHAT IS REFERRED TO IN HISTORY AS ‘THE NEW IMPERIALISM’ 1860-1914. THIS COINCIDED WITH EUROPEANS GOING ACROSS THE WORLD AND STUDING THE ‘OTHER’ WHO WERE USUALLY VIEWED AS INFERIOR. THE FUNNY THING HERE, IN MY OPINION IS THAT THESE EUROPEANS NEVER SEEMED OR WANTED TO UNDERTAKE AN INVESTIGATION OF THEIR OWN SOCIETY BY SIMILAR MEANS. IT IS THESE TYPE OF IDIOSYNCRACIES IN ANTHROPOLOGY THAT I AM REFERRING TO.
ONE OF MY MAIN CONCERNS WITH ANTHROPOLOGY IS THE
“WHAT” IT CHOOSES TO STUDY AND “WHY”.
IT IS IN THIS CONTEXT I VIEWED YOUR ARTICLE.
TO SUM UP AND I CANNOT DO IT JUSTICE HERE I THINK THERE IS A GREAT DEAL OF SIMILARITIES BETWEEN BLACKS BROUGHT TO THE WESTERN WORLD, VIA THE WESTERN TRANSATLANTIC SLAVE TRADE, BUT ITS NOT IN THE INTEREST OF ANTHROPOLOGY TOSTUDY THESE CONNECTIONS
2 and 3) There’s plenty that’s different, beginning with the mother-lode of all culture: language. As Paul Gilroy points out (and yes, like my husband, I am very much a fan of Gilroy), blackness is experienced as a diaspora which is not a homogenous negritude. Each situation in the diaspora created its own cultures and histories which, while linked, are not the same.
GILROY IS GOOD, BUT ONE HAS TO BE AWARE OF HIS ‘POLITICS’ AND THAT CANNOT BE SEPARATED FROM HIS THEORIES IN MY OPINION
4) No, there is no global black identity. There may, perhaps, be global black politics, at least in theory. In practice, I see very little of this.
THAT IS FAIR ENOUGH. THOUGH IT ALSO DEPENDS ON WHAT LEVEL ARE YOU REFERRING ‘IDENTITY’ TO? FOR INSTANCE BLACKS MAY HAVE AN IDENTITY OF THEMSELVES IN THE WORLD VIS-A-VIS RACISM, BUT MAY NOT ‘POLITICALLY’.
5) I would say that it is never appropriate to refer to a black culture unless you ground it in a particular historical experience.
THAT IS MORE THAN FAIR ENOUGH.
I hope this of some clarity and has not confused issues even further.
Thank you
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Ana Paula says (with Thaddeus translating)…
Again, we seem to be back to the old “Brazilians believe in racial democracy” myth.
According to recent research, 85% of Brazilians believe that Brazil is a fundamentally racist nation. The racial democracy myth was deflated by Brazilian social scientists in the 1950s. There’s not a single intelligent, well-educated and informed Brazilian who believes in this myth today who doesn’t have some overt racist agenda.
And yet Dali sees fit to inform me that…
<emAs one man said, don’t confuse racial co-existence with racial equality…Brazil isn’t a racial democracy.
Oh, really? 😀
Dali, seriously, I respect what you’re trying to say but where – in anything posted above – have I said or implied that Brazil is a racial democracy?
What I have said is that Brazil is not more “backwards” than the States when it comes to the racism issue. That we have had significant advances, just like the States, and that also just like the States, much needs to be done.
How in any way, shape or form can this be glossed as belief in racial democracy, Dali?
I think you owe me an explanation here, especially for a man who feels that I am taking his comments out of context.
And regarding your comments, correct me if I’m wrong here, please. Your original post was as follows:
So, although here in the U.S. things aren’t extremely better, one thing that Black Americans can say is that they have fought for their human rights and have demanded to have their minority recognized; while many Black Brazilians can’t say the same.
Now, it seems quite clear to me that you are articulating a heirarchy. What you are saying is that you feel that more black americans have fought for their rights than black Brazilians. You are stating, then, that one group is more “advanced” in its struggle and the other is… well, choose your politically correct synonym for “backwards” or “retarded”. The intent is what matters here, not the word itself.
That is quite clear to me. Am I wrong?
Now, presuming that I am not, my question to you still stands: based on what – other than prejudice – can you make this claim? Do you have a resistance-o-meter? More to the point, have you really studied Brazilian history? This is where my point about the dictatorship comes in: while American blacks were fighting for civil rights, Brazilians of all colors had NO CIVIL RIGHTS AT ALL. The efforts of our left – both black and white – were necessarily more directed to getting the jackboot off of our necks during the 1960s and ’70s than to worrying about this or that subgroup’s specific situation.
Given this, I think it is very innocent and somewhat self-serving to say “Oh, look! American had a black civil rights movement in 1967 while Brazil had nothing similar. This proves that Black Brazilians are fight less for their freedom than Black Americans.”
Black Brazilians who were concerned with freedom in 1967 were more likely to be working against the military government than for black civil rights because without a democratic basis, “civil rights” means nothing at all. The proof of this theory is the following: as soon as the military government collapsed and we got democracy back, concern with black civil rights has exploded in Brazil.
Now this is a very, very simple point which many black americans do not seem to get.
Why do you think that is, Dali? Could there possibly be some unexamined prejudices at work among black americans who look at Brazil?
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Thaddeus, translating for Ana…
Hit a nerve, James? Claim that black brazilians are lazy drunks who won’t get off their asses to fight for their rights and believe that this would hit a nerve with a black brazilian woman?
Why would you ever believe such a thing, querido? 😀
Now,I’d like you to do one simple thing for me, please: point out where I have attacked blacks in America (leaving aside for the moment that I, too, am in America).
I have CRITICIZED some commonly arrticulated U.S. black beliefs about Brazil – beliefs which you obviously share, correct?
This is hardly an attack: this is a critical analysis of things which you, for one, quite clearly believe.
But let’s clear one thing up off the bat: I never said blacks vote republican, did I? What I did say (and this is following the commentary of such known “racist” and “black American hating” institutions as the Southern Poverty Law center), is that in spite of civil rights, blacks obviously do not have a “one man, one vote” system in the south, even today. If they did, much of the south would be democrat because the vast majority of blacks obviously don’t vote Republican. In the last 3 elections at least, the south has been solidly republican and the reasons most likely involve black disenfranchisment and white gerrymandering.
This stuff was all over the global news during the last election. Pointing it out is hardly “hating American blacks”. It is saying that, like Brazil, the U.S. has a long way to go to achieve equality IN SPITE of its past advances.
Now, you say…
…you should look at and appreciate what blacks in America have accomplished as well as what black Brazilians have accomplished. Bitterness will kill you!
The point of my article is precisely that black americans, in general, do not appreciate what black Brazilians have accomplished. I quite appreciate what American blacks have achieved. What I would also like is for the favor to be returned. Unfortunately, it generally isn’t. Your condescending views regarding black Brazilian “backwardness” are, unfortunately, all too common among black Americans.
It was my hope that an article like the one I wrote would give certain people pause.
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What makes Ana Paula’s article controversial (at least here) is the fact it challenges, in a way, the idea of black unity and shared experience.
It is implied (in the article) that being black isn’t enough to understand, or even appreciate, black Brazilian culture. From what I can see, many people here disagree with the idea.
Maybe my reading of the article and people’s responses is wrong, but that’s how I see it.
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Thaddeus, translating for Ana…
J, you probably don’t realize this because you aren’t an anthropologist, but the one thing anthropology has certainly been studying, full time, since the late 1960s are its imperialist premises. This is the point, in fact, which anthropology just won’t shut up about.
What I am curious about, though, is why you think my article falls into “old school” anthropological thought. I’m a black Brazilian woman criticizing certain black american presumptions about Brazil. I have to do this via my husband’s English. I’m certainly not in the imperialist driver’s seat here, am I? 😀
With regards to the study of similarities in the Black Atlantic, lord, that’s all a huge portion of Brazilian anthropology has done in the past 60 years, isn’t it? It was certain anthropologists, after all, who originally fostered the notion that Bahia was a west african relic society… We have libraries of this sort of work and the recent generation is rebeling against it precisely because it has been so hegemonic in terms of the international portrayal of Brazilian black realities.
If you like, I could give you a list of anthropologists who have spilled oceans of ink making comparisons between Bahia and Nigeria.
This is hardly a repressed topic in Brazilian anthroplogy.
Regarding your warning about Gilroy’s politics, that applies to everyone and everything. But what do you see as Gilroy’s politics? I am curious.
Finally, you say:
FOR INSTANCE BLACKS MAY HAVE AN IDENTITY OF THEMSELVES IN THE WORLD VIS-A-VIS RACISM, BUT MAY NOT ‘POLITICALLY’.
I follow F. Barthes on this. All identities are ultimately political, not essential. Culture itself is constructed as a political artefact. So yes, “black” is an identity born out of confrontation with racism.
The problem is that racism itself is not homogenous. This is one piece of black nationalist dogma that has been conclusively disproven. The assimilationist ideology of Brazil, for example, has created different forms of repression and resistance than the segregationist ideology of the American south, for example.
“Rights” were never such an issue to Brazilian blacks because we have been formally guaranteed them since the late 19th century. PRACTICES have been infinitely more important, as well as the right to have black cultural forms respected as being “equal to” white cultural forms. This is why so much of black Brazilian resistance has been “cultural” in comparison to that of the U.S., where a clear-cut legal fight was taking place.
In Brazil, laws are not so important because we know that laws are pretty much voided at will. Much of the resistance impetus in the legal realm has therefore gone into what one could gloss as “citizenship”: the dissemination of the belief that the law is for everyone. You’ll find many black Brazilians fighting in this field which is not often recognized as a “black” form of resistence. But given the Brazilian context, it is far more important than militancy in favor of civil rights.
Because of the way Brazilian racism works, culture has also been an important field for political resistance. Brazilian society’s racism can be defined, in a nutshell, by the idea that blacks must become white. In this context, supporting black cultural traditions takes on far more overt political importance than in the U.S., where segregation for a long time stipulated that blacks could have a cultural space for themselves.
So this is the problem with “black”. We say it and understand us all to be brothers against racism, but the ways in which blackness have been constituted in Brazil have constructed forms of resistance and identity which, in many moments, seem antagonic to the black american forms of the same. Thus, when a black american comes down here, it’s quite easy for them to form a simplistic and even deeply prejudiced view of Brazilian blackness. And because black americans share in the imperial power of the U.S. and the English language – even if they only get the crumbs off its table – their views of us have far more power in the globalized image market than our views of them or even, occasionally, our views of ourselves.
The best way I can put it, perhaps, is this: though black we may all be, Black Americans shouldn’t take their socio-political and cultural structure as the highest point of black evolution. This is what occurs when Black Americans consider themselves to be modern, globalized citizens, while simultaneouly understanding Black Brazilians as picturesque remnants of an africa that never was, or kowtowing, shuffling uncle Toms who hate black identity.
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@ Hathor,
African origin of Olmecs authors;
Paul Alfred Barton
Ivan Van Sertima
Cheik Anta Diop
R. A. Umur S. Bey
Leo Weiner
Authors on other Black Civilizations in the Americas;
Barry Fell
Jack Forbes
Rev. Radine Amen Ra
Jose Pimienta Bey
Runoko Rashidi
I hope this helps. Wikipedia was the fastest to go to but by far not the basis for this.
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Hi!!
Thanks for the response.
You cover so many points that I am not quite sure where to start, so I will preamble and then you can take from whatever is said and comment upon it.
Anthropology
1. If I was a martian just arriving on the planet – some would suggest I am…no seriously. Just imagine I have come down for the very first time and I sided with Black people (from the Black nationalist view). I could easily create the following anthropology by raising the following question, do field research, derive theories etc:
1. What is it about White people that caused them to
create an ideology of the White race being superior and all other races being inferior?
2. Are they inherently evil because using this ideology they may have killed up to and over 200 million plus people across the whole planet?
3. Would the world be a relatively better place without White people??
4. Is Frances Cress Welsing correct in her theory or not??
and so forth
This is what I mean by my concerns about the ‘what’ anthropology chooses to study and ‘the why’.
Not that I am seeking that these questions should be answered but my point here is that they would not be asked in the first place.
Further it is possible to critique anthropology as a social science utilising the methodogy of the ‘philosophy of science’ irrespective of whether I am an anthropologist or not.
2. I am based in London, I sense and understandably so that we are all caught in our own ‘cultural relativism’ and/or ‘ethnocentricism’. And I suspect there may be something about being ‘Brazilian’ which has engendered your viewpoint… I don’t know. In London England, the whole country is affected by US Black popular culture from House/Techno music to Hip Hop/RnB,and so forth but in UK we would simply view it as ‘American culture’. We would not assign a race component to it.
3. The Brazilian (and or South American concept) of race is derived from the Iberians. Whereas the US concept is derived from the English. This needs also to be taken into account, when taking about identity, racial consciousness and awareness and so on
4. As for Paul Gilroy all I would say here is that he is popular with the mainstream, some intellectuals, but not so with the radicals.
5. As for Black Americans looking down on Black Americans.
I am reminded, if I remember correctly, from Amy Jacques Garvey who said until Garvey Blacks in Africa would look down on Blacks in teh West. Blacks in US would look down on Blacks in A Caribbean and so on. Now taking this as my lead and it all depends upon perspectives. Wherever you go in this world Black people are at the bottom. Even in places like the Pacific Ocean.
And being at the bottom creates an ‘existentialism’ that is ‘common’.
This then brings me back to my point about anthropology. How would anthropology (and not the common White Supremacy anaylsis) explain this phenomenon…
Oh I forgot…it does not (forgive my sarcasm here)??
I hope some of this makes some sense especially as I feel we may have expanded (ie diverged) our conversation since my original post.
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Thaddeus translates for Ana…
Dear J,
All of those “Martian points” you bring up have, halfway jocously, have serious counterparts in today’s anthropology. James Clifford, just to begin with.
My doctoral thesis, for example, studied the social construction of Pelé as an internationally recognized symbol of Brazil within a nationalist, white supremacist and racist context. I had to seriously study Brazilian myths of race and nation to do that, just as your “Martian” would suggest.
Thaddeus’ doctorate was on the integration of anthropologists into U.S. Indian administration from 1870 to 1945. He used this to show how nationalist presumptions about manifest destiny and white supremacy had invaded what people normally consider an “objective” scientific field.
So I’d really say your Martian is about 30 years behind the times if he doesn’t think that racism (as opposed to race), whiteness, the upper class, nationalism, colonialism and imperialism are under the anthropological microscope. In certain fields of anthropology, that’s all that gets discussed these days.
As for critiques of anthropology from the “philosophy of science” viewpoint, interesting you should bring that up as I teach philosophy of science. The one thing that’s pretty much a given in science these days is that no science actually does what its philosophy preaches. If your criticisms run to the idea that anthropology is insufficiently objective, that’s a charge that can be leveled at all sciences. If your criticisms run to the idea that anthropology deals with meaning and not inanimate objects, well, hermaneutics, Dilthey and Max Weber addressed that problem at the end of the 19th century. Science is indeed descriptive as well as predictive. Anthro is no less a science simply because it leans to the highly descriptive side of things.
I could talk about anthro’s problems and blind spots all day, but what I dislike is when someone brings them up in shorthand form as a means of attempting to dismiss my point of view without addressing it.
And I suspect there may be something about being ‘Brazilian’ which has engendered your viewpoint…
Perhaps, but I’d say you’re taking a risk of romantic essentialism when you say that. I agree that there are national tendencies and patterns and that these can be reflected in our thinking. My article, in fact, does that. But I think these need to be demonstrated and not presumed if we’re going to avoid a spiritualist view of human action.
The Brazilian (and or South American concept) of race is derived from the Iberians. Whereas the US concept is derived from the English. This needs also to be taken into account, when taking about identity, racial consciousness and awareness and so on
Thaddeus could speak to this better than I as he’s the comparative historian in the house. But from what I understand, he believes that both the U.S. and Brazil’s notions of race developed more in the Americas than in Europe.
It is interesting that you bring up Garvey, though. On several occasions, Garvey made some very strange social-evolutionary comments regarding Africa. Much of his political program revolved around the idea that American blacks should recolonize Africa and bring it up to standard. While Garvey may have indeed eliminated the view that african blacks were superior to new World blacks, I’m not so sure that he didn’t in fact, simply reverse this view, not to mention internalize a whole series of presumptions about what is civilization.
How would anthropology (and not the common White Supremacy anaylsis) explain this phenomenon…
No “would” about it: anthropology quite clearly situates it as a product of racism and colonialism.
Your problem with anthropology isn’t this, my friend: your problem with anthropology is that it would also go on to say that in spite of racism and colonialism, a homogenous black identity and politics is not created, precisely because of racism and colonialism’s fractal and complex nature.
And want to talk philosophy of science, J? Even if we were to presume homogeneity, like causes to not always create like results. 😀
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Thanks yet again…
I think your response leads me to the thrust of what I see problematic about your article.
For me your article, and I hope you do not take it personally reveals much more about your perspectives, racial outlook internally and externally than say teh objective reality of the situation.
I am interested that my ethnocentricism would treat the situation as Americans whereas you find it necessary to highlight race.
You make some interesting points above but I feel you miss the thrust of the point that I am trying to get across in a critique of your article.
I know their is often a ‘knee-jerk’ reaction when our position is confronted – so in essence I can understand this.
Hopefully in pt 2. I might be able to show you some of my concerns
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PT 2: My emphasis is in capital so as to make a distinction.
English-speaking media is so strong in the world that how Black American tourists see Brazil affects how Black Brazil sees itself.
Q: WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE ENGLISH-SPEAKING MEDIA DOES BLACK PEOPLE OWN WHETHER IN THE US AND/OR
OVER HERE IN THE UK??
EVEN IF BLACKS OWN A LARGE PROPORTION HOW REPRESENTATIVE ARE THESE OWNERS VIS-A-VIS THE MASSES OF BLACK PEOPLE IN THE US??
IN FACT WHAT IS THE STATISTICAL FIGURE THAT YOU ARE UTILISING AND HOW DOES IT COMPARE WITH OTHER ETHNIC GROUPS IN THE US??
Black Brazil sees itself partly through black gringo eyes.
Response: IF BLACKS DO NOT OWN OR HAVE CONTROL OF THE MEDIA BRAZIL IS SEEING ITSELF EITHER THROUGH A WHITE GAZE AND/OR FROM A UK PERSPECTIVE IT WOULD BE AN ‘AMERICAN GAZE’
Tour operators in America use two things to draw blacks to see Brazil: the beautiful and supposedly easy women of Rio and the African roots of the black city of Salvador in the north-east.
R: I OBSERVE THE ‘NEUTRAL TERM’ TOUR OPERATORS. CAN THESE TOUR OPERATORS BE CLASSIFIED INTO BLACK OR WHITE, IN THE SAME WAY AS YOU REFER TO A BLACK MEDIA?? WHO ARE YOU REFERRING TO.
The women: Black American men tend to see Brazilian women as more natural, easy-going, sexy and less overweight than their own women back home.
Q: SO DO BLACK AMERICANS GO TO BRAZIL TO LOOK TO FIND A WIFE AND/OR SEX PARTNER WHEN THEY GO TO BRAZIL?
Q. IF IT IS SHOWN THAT BLACK MEN DO, CAN THE STATISTICS BE KINDLY PROVIDED?
Q. FURTHER WHAT IS THE ETHNIC BREAKDOWN OF PEOPLE WHO GO TO BRAZIL FROM THE US??
Which is strange: Brazilian women, in fact, use more cosmetic surgery and are more uptight about sex – and many are overweight. Brazilian men would also be surprised to learn that Brazilian women do not stand up to them.
African roots: Surely the heritage tourists who come to see Brazil’s black culture first-hand are more serious. Well, no:
R. THEY MAY WELL IN FACT BE SERIOUS, BUT NOT EVERYONE IS AN ACADEMIC
Few bother to learn its history or read its great writers.
R. MAYBE ITS A UK STEREOTYPE BUT IT IS ACCEPTED BY MOST THAT PEOPLE IN AMERICA DO NOT READ AND THAT IS ACROSS ALL THE RACES
They tend to see Black Brazil as somehow part of their own history even though it never was – it is a completely separate branch of the African Diaspora.
R. AND THIS IS MY POINT ABOUT NOT BEING ACADEMIC ETC. THESE BLACK AMERICAN SO IDENTIFY WITH BRAZILIAN CULTURE THAT THEY WILL TAKE THE TIME TO TRAVEL THERE…BUT YET AT THE SAME TIME IN YOUR ANALYSIS THEY ARE NOT SERIOUS.
WHETHER BRAZIL HISTORY IS A SEPARATE BRANCH OF THE AFRICAN DIASPORA IS SURELY A SUBJECTIVE ISSUE. AN INDIVIDUAL SHOULD NOT WANT TO BE IMPOSING THEIR VIEW OF HISTORY. SO FOR INSTANCE IF ONE BELIEVES IN A PAN-AFRICAN IDEOLOGY THEN BRAZIL WOULD BE A PART OF THEIR HISTORY. IF ONE REFUSES TO BELIEVE IN IT THEN IT WOULD NOT. HOWEVER, SURELY THIS IS THE RIGHT OF INDIVIDUALS. JUST AS IT IS THE RIGHT OF A BRAZILIAN TO EMBRACE, NEGATE HIS PORTUGESE CULTURAL TRADITIONS
They apply their own ideas of what is truly “African” to Brazil.
R: OFF COURSE THEY WOULD FROM THEIR ETHNOCENTRICISM
That determines what they see and know, like capoeira, but not, say, black symbolist poets like Cruz e Souza.
All this gives them a rather odd picture of Brazil.
If Black America were viewed the same way there would be no Richard Wright or Malcolm X – because who needs to know the history and the literature?
R: I AM NOT SURE IF THE ANALOGY FOR MALCOLM X IS CORRECT HERE. SINCE AT THE VERY LEAST PEOPLE WOULD NO OF THE FIGURE OF MALCOM X, EVEN IF THEY MAY NOT KNOW ANYTHING ELSE
Jazz would be dismissed because it has no “African” beat.
R; AS I SAID I AM NOT SURE OF THIS PART OF YOUR ARTICLE. Many have linked Jazz to African traditions and there are others who have not
Black Baptist churches would be seen as sell-outs for not worshipping African gods.
R: FROM A DIFFERENT CULTURAL PERSPECTIVE – THIS COULD WELL BE POSSIBLE
The Gullah of the Carolina Sea Islands would be the “true” Black America because its culture is more purely African.
Black Americans, by overvaluing what is “African” in Brazilian culture, undervalue what is Brazilian, what is special, what is new and now. As if Brazil was stuck in 1600.
R: THE IRONIC THING IN LIFE IS THIS, WHAT WE SAY ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE IN FACT REFLECTS MORE ABOUT US. AND I ALLUDED TO IT MY LAST POST. IF BLACKS IN THE US ARE ‘OVER-VALUING’ THE AFRICAN ASPECT OF THE BRAZILIAN CULTURE. THEN THAT SPEAKS MORE ABOUT blacks U.S. THAN BLACK BRAZILIANS.
THIS THEN LEADS US INTO ANOTHER PROBLEM, WHAT IS OVERVALUING? WHAT IS BEING COMPARED AGAINST? IS THERE ANY EVIDENCE OF THIS IN REAL/EMPIRICAL TERMS??
You could argue that tourists do this all over the world: what tourist ever sees the “true” Japan or the “true” Greece? Well, yes. But the trouble comes when Black Americans go back home and help to shape America’s idea of what Brazil is like, particularly of Black Brazil. That in turn gets pumped out to the whole world and so comes all the way back to Brazil itself and its blacks.
Q. WHAT EVIDENCE IS THAT IT GETS PUMPED OUT TO THE WHOLE WORLD? I CAN SAY IT HAS NOT REACHED ME IN LONDON.
Blacks may not be particularly powerful within America itself, but because they live in the land of the world’s biggest media machine, their ideas about blackness get carried all over the world, shaping how blacks everywhere see themselves.
Q. AGAIN WHO CONTROLS THE MEDIA IN THE US?
For the blacks of Brazil this means that the richness of their history and culture has to fight against whatever Black Americans see as more “truly black”.
R: I CANNOT ACCEPT THIS.
And so this is my concern about the article.
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Thaddeus translating for Ana…
I am interested that my ethnocentricism would treat the situation as Americans whereas you find it necessary to highlight race.
Yes, and there’s a reason for this: white and black Americans do not approach Brazil in the same fashion.
This is a distinction that lies at the core of my argument, J.
White Americans do not come to Brazil in search of their “heritage”: black Americans often do.
White Americans tend to see Brazilians as irredeemably other.
Black Americans tend to see Brazilians as a failed approximation of self.
Now, I have a pretty heavy critique about white Americans in Brazil and their endless attempts to replay Indiana Jones in their minds. What I am more concerned about, however, is the oft-stated perception that Black “heritage” tourism in Brazil is somehow necessarily a positive thing. I am trying to point out some of its unexamined negatives.
Now, to take your points. Most of them seem to be responses to Abagond’s gloss of my article and are not really pertinent to my article per se, so I’ll just set them aside for now.
I OBSERVE THE ‘NEUTRAL TERM’ TOUR OPERATORS. CAN THESE TOUR OPERATORS BE CLASSIFIED INTO BLACK OR WHITE, IN THE SAME WAY AS YOU REFER TO A BLACK MEDIA?? WHO ARE YOU REFERRING TO.
Black-directed tourism is generally run and operated by U.S. blacks here in Brazil, whether it be sexual or heritage in focus.
SO DO BLACK AMERICANS GO TO BRAZIL TO LOOK TO FIND A WIFE AND/OR SEX PARTNER WHEN THEY GO TO BRAZIL?
Yes, may of them do.
Q. IF IT IS SHOWN THAT BLACK MEN DO, CAN THE STATISTICS BE KINDLY PROVIDED?
On any given night in Copacabana, a neighborhood which probably accounts for about 50% of the sex tourism dollar in Brazil, one can find anywhere from 200-5000 foreign men who are out on the prowl specifically looking for commerical sexual partners. The daily average is probably about 300 or so. Given that the average trip to Brazil is 10 days in length, presume that Rio probably gets around 10000 sexual tourists a year. About half of this crowd is U.S. American and some 10% of that is black. So we’re talking probably around 500 fairly hard core black american sexual tourists in Rio, per year. These numbers come from our field work.
Now, note that in my article I do not claim that Brazilian women’s reputation in general is created or even significantly maintained by black Americans, so why these numbers are an issue is a bit beyond me.
Q. FURTHER WHAT IS THE ETHNIC BREAKDOWN OF PEOPLE WHO GO TO BRAZIL FROM THE US??
Difficult to say.
THEY MAY WELL IN FACT BE SERIOUS, BUT NOT EVERYONE IS AN ACADEMIC
J, with all due respect, perhaps you should read my articel before trying to critique it? You’re quoting Abagond’s words back at me, not my own.
Strange behavior for a man concerned with science. 😀
I am happy to hear critiques, but I would that they were of something I wrote, rather than of what a reviewer has wrote, no matter how well-meaning the reviewer.
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THANKS FOR YOUR QUICK RESPONSE.
I AM AFRAID I NOTE A TENDENCY IN YOUR WRITING TO BELITTLE, OR SCORE POINTS. ITS NOT NECESSARY AND IT IS USUALLY A SIGN OF ARROGANCY AND INSECURITY AT
THE SAME TIME.
PERSONALLY I WOULD FIND THIS TRAIT VERY WORRYING, ESPECIALLY WITH RGEARD TO THOSE THAT ‘LEAD’ WHETHER IN SCHOOLS OR THE MASSES GENERAL
ITS NOT CLEAR WHY YOU MAKE REFERENCE TO ME BEING
A MAN OF SCIENCE, WHEN YOU DO NOT KNOW MY POSITION? NOR IS IT A CLAIM I HAVE MADE FOR MYSELF EITHER.
NEVERTHELESS I AM GRATEFUL FOR THE INFORMATION PROVIDED.
AT THE OUTSET OF MY VERY FIRST POST FRIDAY 8 JAN. I SAY – AND I HAVE CUT-N-PASTED THIS:
IN THE OPENING PARAGRAPH I STATE:
“This is an interesting article that raises many issues. Firstly, I think I would need to read and see the entire article before I could do it a fair assessment”.
AND AGAIN I REFER YOU TO THE LAST SENTENCE
“1. The science of anthropology I believe has not fully tackled itself on the issue of ‘cultural relativism’ if I can use that term and I still have issues with this ’social science’, which would take too long to go in here. Perhaps the author is somewhat ‘embedded’ by the underlying assumptions of this social science. However, as I said I have not seen or read the full article”.
SO I HAVE STATED IT TWICE. NOTWITHSTANDING IF A PIECE IS SUBMITTED ON A WEBPAGE AND IS POSTED FOR COMMENTS. ITS A BIT OF AN ANOMALY TO TELL THE PERSON TO READ THE WHOLE ARTICLE – EVEN WHEN TEH PERSON HAS ALREADY ALLUDED TO THIS POINT.
THERE WERE A FEW OTHER THINGS I WOULD HAVE LIKE TO COMMENTED UPON BUT I FEEL WE ARE TOO MUCH INTO SCORING POINTS.
AND AS I SAID WHEN I FIRST CAME HERE THAT PEOPLE WILL WANT TO BELIEVE ANYTHING THAT BOLSTER THEIR WORLD VIEWS, EGOS ETC. – AND I AM NOT THE MAN TO DISRUPT THEIR WORLDVIEW.
IF THEIR IS ANYONE INTERESTED IN CHALLENGING THEIR OWN WORLDVIEWS. THEN I AM MORE THAN WILLING TO HAVE A DIALOGUE WITH.
FINALLY AND I THINK IT SHOULD BE SAID THAT MANY OF THE THOUGHTS HERE ARE JUST THEORIES AND IDEAS, SOME TIMES ITS ALSO ABOUT PERSPECTIVES. SOMETHING YOU TOUCHED UPON QUITE WELL WHEN YOU MADE REFERNCE TO ‘PHILOSOPHY OF SCIENCE’
THANKS!!
PS
BEFORE DEPARTING MY KEYBOARD WAS STILLIN CAPS AND WHEN I NOTICED IT. IT WOULD BE TOO LATE TO REVERT BACK TO LOWER CASE…
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Hi!!
With regard to:
“J, with all due respect, perhaps you should read my article before trying to critique it?”
Can you kindly direct me to where it will be possible to read the article in its entirety?
Thanks!!
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When people say things like “America and Black America” that type of rhetoric does nothing to unite people. It simply drives the wedge of division deeper. We are all Americans if we live in America.
“The Man” wants us to stay divided because he knows we are too strong if we are united. Let’s not play his game anymore.
Unity by any means necessary!
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Please ignore my request for where your article can be read in entirety.
Since I managed to find it – It looks as if my short-sightedness is becoming more acute than I thought.
Having read it, and since I tend not to go back on what I say. All I would say I think Abagond’s precis of your article is quite accurate…but for reasons expressed earlier I will not choose to go into it).
Nice one (as I move at the speed of light to which will be hopefully my last post for the day – well at least in this part of the world)
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Thaddeus translating for Ana…
Having read it, and since I tend not to go back on what I say.
Jay, half of your points were about how I was saying that Black Brazilians have their view of self dominated by Black Americans.
Can you point out to me one place in the article where that is even implied?
ITS NOT CLEAR WHY YOU MAKE REFERENCE TO ME BEING A MAN OF SCIENCE, WHEN YOU DO NOT KNOW MY POSITION?
Note that I said “a man concerned with science”, which is completely different and which I feel is a fair assumption, given what you’ve said above. You disagree?
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Thaddeus hisself…
I`m white says:
Unity by any means necessary!
So we put the dissenters up against a wall and shoot ’em, huh? 🙂
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With regard to:
ITS NOT CLEAR WHY YOU MAKE REFERENCE TO ME BEING A MAN OF SCIENCE, WHEN YOU DO NOT KNOW MY POSITION?
Note that I said “a man concerned with science”, which is completely different and which I feel is a fair assumption, given what you’ve said above. You disagree?
I would like you to read your same comments see below in its full context
ITS NOT CLEAR WHY YOU MAKE REFERENCE TO ME BEING A MAN OF SCIENCE, WHEN YOU DO NOT KNOW MY POSITION?
“J, with all due respect, perhaps you should read my articel before trying to critique it? You’re quoting Abagond’s words back at me, not my own.
Strange behavior for a man concerned with science. (smiley face/laughing)”
Now replace the word ‘concerned with’ by the single word ‘of’….in the last sentence.
and have a think therewith.
And again…
“J, you probably don’t realize this because you aren’t an anthropologist, but the one thing anthropology has certainly been studying, full time, since the late 1960s are its imperialist premises.”
Once again here is another example of presumptuousness.
I am fully aware of Anthropology and its attempts to rectify its positions of the past – just like any other science. However, my position is I do not think it has even remotely come far enough.
This is the only reason why I referred to the ‘Philosophy of Science’ so as to demonstrate that one does not have to be an anthropologist to know of its traditions or critique it.
I am not a man ‘concerned with’ science its an assumption on your part which is not correct.
And this is what I meant in my comments yesterday.
As for your article I really do not want to discuss it. Its clear you have your perspectives – but I think we are coming from two different positions.
I guess the only thing we can both conclude upon is tht all truth is relative, all truths is relative to the perceiver. However, there is a possibilty in our perspectives and in our analyis of truth – we can also be wrong.
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Hey, J. Thaddeus here.
I’m up the coast at my teaching station in Macaé until Friday, so I’m not going to be able to translate your response to Ana and get her’s back until then.
Just letting you know so you don’t think she’s blowing you off!
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Thank you for letting me know
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Referring to your other post ‘My Thing for Brazil’, I too have had a long affinity for Brazil. There is just something about it. If there was any one place in the world that most represented the term ‘melting pot’, it is Brazil. I have been trying to get there for the last 8 years to experience the carnival, landscape and rich melting pot of cultures, but not quite made it. I even contemplated buying property out there (was cheap a few years ago), but again never followed it through.
Unfortunately, I have to agree with the last lines of this post regarding African-American’s perceptions of other black people/cultures. African-Americans (sorry to say) do have a habit of painting a negative picture of black people in other countries. You only have to read the ignorant views that many have of Africa (even on this site). Some don’t even realize that Africa is actually a continent rather than a country!! Yet, they complain about white racism and prejudice but then buy into the negative images portrayed. The film ‘Coming to America’ which is a great movie, portrays this well by using comedy to illustrate the stereotypes.
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The funny thing about Brazil is that we really DON’T have as rich a melting pot of cultures as, say, the U.S.
We just don’t deny that a lot of interracial screwing goes on, unlike the U.S. That’s about it.
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Within this post I had written the following:
“…WHETHER BRAZIL HISTORY IS A SEPARATE BRANCH OF THE AFRICAN DIASPORA IS SURELY A SUBJECTIVE ISSUE. AN INDIVIDUAL SHOULD NOT WANT TO BE IMPOSING THEIR VIEW OF HISTORY. SO FOR INSTANCE IF ONE BELIEVES IN A PAN-AFRICAN IDEOLOGY THEN BRAZIL WOULD BE A PART OF THEIR (ie African American) HISTORY. IF ONE REFUSES TO BELIEVE IN IT THEN IT WOULD NOT. HOWEVER, SURELY THIS IS THE RIGHT OF INDIVIDUALS. JUST AS IT IS THE RIGHT OF A BRAZILIAN TO EMBRACE [or] NEGATE HIS PORTUGESE CULTURAL TRADITIONS…”
Now we see a real-life example of the aforesaid…
Senegal’s President says he will offer free land and “repatriation” to people affected by the earthquake in Haiti. President Abdoulaye Wade said Haitians were sons and daughters of Africa
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8463921.stm
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RELOCATING DEBATE FROM https://abagond.wordpress.com/2007/06/13/the-ten-most-beautiful-black-women-in-the-world/#comment-38437
can you show me one video they did that they really cut a monster samba?
Why is samba your choice for the be-all and end-all of quality Brazilian music? Asking Paralamas (note spelling) to produce a first-class samba is a bit like asking Frank Zappa to produce a first-class country ‘n western ballad: it just ain’t their medium, nor should it be.
And let me tell you something: far,. far many more Brazilians listen to Paralamas than to Luizão. Whatever you think their relative musical merits might be, it’s damned obvious which is more culturally normative and hegemonic.
I didnt say all sub sahara music is in 6/8, I said its in most all of the cultures in sub sahara Africa along with duple meter.
Duple meter is all over the world, B.R. and certainly all over Europe, Africa and the Med. It’s hardly an African distinctive cultural trait. And 6/8 time is not the dominant characteristic of most subsaharan musical cultures. Sorry.
Man, great if you name is out here, but, what am I going to gain from showing you what I do and have you get arrogant with it…
Arrogance? Your comments on how you’ve lived longer here than me and know so much more about all this than me but curiously still have great difficulties reading and writing the national tongue aren’t arrogance? You’ll notice, B.R., that I’ve made very few presumptions about your knowledge of Brazil up to now. And yet you seem to feel you know everything about me in relation to you: how well I dance, how long I’ve lived here, what I happen to know (or don’t know) about music… You’re basically asking “Você sabe com quem você está falando?” which, if you know as much about Brazilian culture as you claim to, is about the most arrogant thing you can ever ask of a Brazilian. It’s the kind of claim that causes fistfights at a drop of a hat.
And you’re worried about my arrogance? Do tell.
Well here’s a few things I’m seeing in your comments. Given your recent presumptions of superiority, I hope you don’t find them unbearably arrogant.
My wife wrote an article recently about a tendency you display: you, like a lot of gringos, seem to feel qualified to tell Brazilians what’s truly “original”, “unique” and “worthwhile” in their culture and these things are always those which you presume have been brought over, mostly untouched, from Africa.
Bossa Nova was at one time criticized in the same way you now critique Brazilian rock: as being essentially an American musical form with Brazilian bits tossed in. Today. however (given the list of musicians you see fit to site as true Brazilian geniuses), you apparently think it’s solidly roots and Brazilian all the way through. Your view of Brazilian music seems to me unable or unwilling to grasp the way in which the country has taken other forms and made them their own. What you consider to be “quality Brazilian music” today is simply what an earlier generation considered to be gringo-inspired pop trash. Your pooh-poohing of Brazilian rock thus makes little historical or logical sense and seems to me to be essentially snobish: the superficial elitism of an immigrant (?) who believes he has properly assimilated a “correct” and “true” Brazilian culture where others haven’t.
Tell the truth, man: you DON’T live in Brazil. You don’t really speak the language. You essentially vacation here. This country and its music are your hopbby, not your life. I’m sure you know an awful lot about how to dance and how to play music, but that point has never been at question, has it? What I question is your belief that somehow you understand Brazilian cultural history because you dance samba.
B.R., seriously: name me ONE Brazilian – academic or musician – who believes that the Zulu invented samba. There’s no evidence of this and plenty of evidence that it came out of Angola, Nigeria and Europe. The Zulu were not in contact with Nigeria and Angola, B.R. There was no cultural diffusion between those places. Whatever your talent in music might be, it simply doesn’t authorize you to snap your fingers and invent historical facts, man. Seriously. That’s the only thing that’s being discussed on my part. I really fail to see how your being light on your feet resolves that issue.
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Its really silly to put words in my mouth, Thad.That is a reacurring problem you have.
I just made it clear that i didnt say the Zulus invented samba, I said they demonstrated that they had some dance steps that looked like samba and obviously predate Brazilian samba. Where they got them from I dont know but i know the steps when i see them.If a brazilian scholar saw that, they would have to deal with it and im sure they would agree with me that it looks like samba
Its really arrogant for you to put words in my mouth.
I say duple meter but African duple meter has a special call responce syncopation that is unique to it self. Its power migrated to the Americas and distintly dictates the feel . No European or mediteranian music resembles it. You didnt know that? You dont really know music
More Brazilians have heard Luizao, he recorded on just about every major stars record for a period, they just dont know it. Luizao had a bald spot on his head,from doing so much studio work.
But you come from a strange point to think success and money mean higher leval. Ive always been about knowing who the great players are.They have secrets and knowledge the pop stars dont have.Even though some players play in pop bands. As i said, Palaramas are a great pop band , but they arnt as great players as the people i have mentioned.
I dont care about what Ana said(with all due respect),I disagreed up and down. If you want to take it like you said, be my guest, you are no more brazilian than me. You think if you speak perfect Portuguese you are more Brazilian ? What about a whole lot of Portuguese in Portugual? Are they more Brazilian?
I dont care what you think about me, i laugh at your definition,you are absoulutly no authority to me.That is your hang up, Thad, youthink you are everyones professor outside of your class, get for real, this is the real world. Your opinion of me just vacationing here is just low leval ludicras blather on your part. I mean what are you going to do about it?
I think you dont know much about music. You cant even tell the differance from the great players and the regular pop stars. I never brought a record because it was popular, i got it because the music is what is important. Its the same in America, the jazz players just mop the floor with the rock and pop people, every one who knows music knows the jazz players play better, but the rock guys make more money.You cant have everything, you can make the money but you arnt the greatest player
I dont care what you think Brazilians used to think about bossa. I always knew better. Jobim was influenced by jazz but also modern classical music, and, there was plenty of Brazilian music before that that indicated this change was coming, from Laurenda Almeida, Dorival Cayime, Johnny Alf,Ary Barroso.And the Americans cant cut a samba rhythm on a bossa to save their lives. That is what makes it uniquly Brazilian, didnt you realise that? You dont know music
You dont get that, its the groove, that is what makes rock rock and American influenced and bossa a family of samba
If you play the star spangled bannor as a samba, what is it? its a samba
if you play the brazilian national anthem as funk what is it? its funk. the groove dictates what the music is.
Or didnt you know that?
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Thad, what is this about scholars , scholars?
Scholars arnt the authority on jazz, as a matter of fact they are ruining it. They dont really have the whole truths. You think its differant in Brazilian music?
I spent hours and hours and months and years and years to find the truths to come to the conclusions i have and im still tweaking it. You think because a scholar who has spent less time than me comes up with an intellectual position that i know is wrong im suposed to just pretend i dont know what i know?
I like Hemanos docu very much, but he didnt include everything there is.Ive been to the northeast also, went to sedes of foclorico groups, filmed things that are really interesting but i dont have some grant or anything to get the exposure.There is plenty i can learn from him and there is plenty he can learn from me.
By the way I answered Ana every step and she didnt convince me . I saw that she was actualy trying to make another point that was very valid but i didnt agree with the points she was using to make her statements.
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I just made it clear that i didnt say the Zulus invented samba, I said they demonstrated that they had some dance steps that looked like samba and obviously predate Brazilian samba. Where they got them from I dont know but i know the steps when i see them.If a brazilian scholar saw that, they would have to deal with it and im sure they would agree with me that it looks like samba.
I bet the Zulus and the Ioruba both had spears, too. Hell, Norwegians had spears! So maybe they’re all culturally linked, right?
That’s part of the problem here: you see as exclusively African things which human groups developed all over the world. The general step of samba is NOT particularly hard: it’s the speed and variations which make it hard. So I’m not surprised you see things that look like samba elsewhere. That doesn’t mean – as you definitiely implied in the beginning of this debate – that the Zulus have some link to samba.
You are no more brazilian than me.
Actually, I bet I am in the ONLY way that’s fundamentally and essentially important: I am a citizen. I would bet my bottom dollar that, you aren’t. So, yes, I am Brazilian and you aren’t. Period.
Now, what this has to do with anything we’re discussing here is beyond me. I don’t care about relative degrees of Brazilianness. I DO care if you happen to know what you claim to know. So far, it seems to me that you know a lot about the music of this country and very little of its cultural history that strretches beyond the kind of myths that are taught to grade school children down here. I might be wrong, but so far that’s what you’ve shown.
I’m curious as to what you find so objectionable in Vianna’s work, anyhow. you claim to have read it. You say you disagree with him. About what, precisely?
Thad, youthink you are everyones professor outside of your class, get for real, this is the real world.
Chats on the internet are the real world? OK….
I say duple meter but African duple meter has a special call responce syncopation that is unique to it self. Its power migrated to the Americas and distintly dictates the feel . No European or mediteranian music resembles it. You didnt know that? You dont really know music.
You know, I wish you’d stop calling me arrogant when you are doing the same things yourself or worse. We’re both arrogant. Fine. That still doesn’t mean that there’s an exclusively transafrican “special call and response duple meter”. There are call and response forms outside of Africa and there is no one form that is in all African cultures. And yes, I do have a pretty good knowledge of music for someone who’s not a professional.
More Brazilians have heard Luizao, he recorded on just about every major stars record for a period, they just dont know it. Luizao had a bald spot on his head,from doing so much studio work.
Heard, maybe. Recognize, certainly not. And this is the point, B.R. Whether or not he’s a better musician than Vianna, it would be very difficult to claim that he’s more culturally relevant. And that’s ALL that I’m talking about here. you’re the one who keeps on bringing up subjective rguments of quality, my friend, not me.
But you come from a strange point to think success and money mean higher leval.
Who said “higher”? I said “culturally normative” and “culturally relevant”. The two things are completely different. I prefer Naná Vasconcelos to Pitty, but there’s no doubt in my mind that, if we use Durkheim’s definition of what’s “normal” in a society, Pitty is more that.
As i said, Palaramas are a great pop band…
For a guy who knows so much about Brazilian music, you certainly have difficulties spelling the name of one of the country’s most famous bands! 😀
And no, I don’t think you ever said Paralamas were a great pop band. In fact, you were basically dissing them as unrepresentative lightweights who essentially play American music.
You cant even tell the differance from the great players and the regular pop stars.
No, I have my own views of what’s great and what’s not. But I’m not trying to objectify my own subjective views of greatness in any case: what I AM talking about is cultural relevance and what’s provable as history and what’s myth. This has nothing at all to do with either your subjective musical tastes or mine. And here’s a simple historical fact: many of the “great” and “truly Brazilian” artists you love today were, in their time, trashed as cheesy immitation Americans.
Give you 20 more years, B.R., and you too will be telling us all how “great” Paralamas were. Why? Not because their music has changed, but because your in-crowd of Brazilian hipster friends will have changed THEIR views on what constitutes relevant Brazilian music. This has happened time and again in Brazilian history and it’s ALREADY happening with the ’80s rock bands. By 2020, hip musicians will be drooling over them in the same way that your buddies now drool over Tom and Vinicuius. 😀
And the Americans cant cut a samba rhythm on a bossa to save their lives. That is what makes it uniquly Brazilian, didnt you realise that?
Oh, yes. Samba is some essential Brazilian trait that’s carved into Brazilian genes. [roll eyes]
You know, I listen to a lot of Radio MEC and El Dorado out of SP. I’m not a music doyen, by any means, but I do hear what a lot of the “great” musical people you talk about have to say. Many of them are quite impressed with certain foreign groups’ grasp of Brazilian music. The Japanese, in particular, come in for high marks. So no, I do not think that samba is any more rarified than any other human cultural form. And you know WHY few Americans can do samba? Because outside of a tiny little crowd of mostly eastcoast hipsters, most Americans couldn’t care less about samba. If samba were all of a sudden to become a major force in American pop, people would start playing it. It is learnable, like anything else in human culture.
I dont care what you think Brazilians used to think about bossa.
Jesus! What I think? You seriously believe that this is all a figment of my imagination? That “Desafinado”, for example, was written because Bossa had achieved such hard core success with people like you in Brazil back in the early 50s…? 😀 Dude, if you’d lived here then, you would have HATED bossa and your argument would be “it’s not roots. It’s not really samba. It’s the bastardization of a cheap American pop form with some samba sprinkled on top.” This is exactly what people like you were saying back then. 😀
If you play the star spangled bannor as a samba, what is it? its a samba
if you play the brazilian national anthem as funk what is it? its funk. the groove dictates what the music is.
Or didnt you know that?
And if no one listens to what you’re doing, or cares, you are culturally irrelevant.
Or don’t you know that? 😀
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I spent hours and hours and months and years and years to find the truths to come to the conclusions i have and im still tweaking it. You think because a scholar who has spent less time than me comes up with an intellectual position that i know is wrong im suposed to just pretend i dont know what i know?
Yeah, when said scholar has probably put more time into this than you, when he lives here and you don’t, when he has a family history of dealing with the topic and you (probably) don’t, when he READS, WRITES and SPEAKS the language comfortably and you don’t and – crucially – when he’s done a ton of research on a much wider series of fields – ethnographic, bibliographic and historiographic – than you. Not to mention that this guys work is reviewed by his peers both in the music and academic fields and has been widely acclaimed by pretty much everyone while you’ve published… what, exactly?
Hell yeah, I think Vianna knows more about the history of Brazilian music than you do. I’m sorry if that strikes your ego, but their it is.
So tell me again: what do you think Vianna got wrong and why?
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By the way I answered Ana every step and she didnt convince me.
Hell, you still think Fanon is picking on people for dating outside their race when J and I have explained, meticulously and repeatedly, why this isn’t so. Ana’s tolerance for these sorts of arguments – especially when they are in English – is much lower than mine.
But you know, if you’d like to put your money where your mouth is in any number of ways, why don’t you write to her in Portuguese so that I don’t have to translate? I’m sure she’d be happy to yak all you want then.
But think about this for a sec: you are a gringo who can’t read and write Portuguese after supposedly 20+ years living in this country, and yet you present yourself as an expert on what is and what is not truly Brazilian music. You are unwilling or unable to engage Ana in HER language, forcing her to either learn YOUR tongue or use my services as a translator in order to speak in an international forum about her own cultural experiences.
You extrapolate about Brazilian music all the time and I’m sure you’re considered to be well informed on the topic back home. And yet if Ana makes one small observation regarding AMERICAN culture, she’s told she knows nothing about it.
It seems to me that this situation pretty well exemplifies much of what Ana has written above.
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Are you having fun yet,Thad? Who sais I cant read Portuguese? I speak well enough to get around , where do you get the idea i dont live in Brazil? You really like to tell out right lies .That is why you dont deserve to know any more information about me than you know now, because you are just a distorter of what people say.oh Only Thad can be the arrogant one…yeah we are both arrogant.
Would you read correctly, I said I saw his documentary on tv and I liked it. Its just not the definitive word on Brazilian culture. Why would you say I hated what he said?
Thad sais”I bet the Zulus and the Ioruba both had spears, too. Hell, Norwegians had spears! So maybe they’re all culturally linked, right?
That’s part of the problem here: you see as exclusively African things which human groups developed all over the world. The general step of samba is NOT particularly hard: it’s the speed and variations which make it hard. So I’m not surprised you see things that look like samba elsewhere. That doesn’t mean – as you definitiely implied in the beginning of this debate – that the Zulus have some link to samba.”
I cant beleive your ignorance here. You have no distintion of what the African contribution to the world is, what its genius is. By the way, I never said it arrived in tact to Brazil. Of course Brazil evolved its own unique expresion of these beats and dances. Like jazz evolved its own expresion. But my god, any one who has listened even a little to sub sahara African rhythms , recognises the roots of such great idioms as gua gua co, samba, jazz, funk, mambo, marakatu, coco, hip hop etc You are really dense about this. Its hard to get through to someone who cant even understand this.
You know Europe had the church lording over everyone that they cant have pelvic thrusts. They have no concept of groove. The syncopation is stiff and minimal. The genius of classical Indian music is linear. They use pollyrhythms, but not as a base. South India has grooves, but , not like the sub sahara African beats. Arab beats are more linear based on a phrase not call responce. Koto drums are not in a groove that is call responce. You dont know anything about this but you spout off just to hear your cyber lips flap.
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You think Paralamas will be my favorite band in 20 years and recognised more than Luizao?
Ever hear of Rudy Valee? He was the pop star of the 20’s. He was the Paralamas of back then. Guess what, nobody remembers him. They study what Louis Armstrong and Duke Ellington did now. In 100 years from now, the Beatles and Rolling Stones and Bob Dylan will diminish and they will be studying what Miles Davis and John Coltrane were doing in the early 60’s….wait , they already are. The major music schools are studying them because they have more to offer, more depth. And Jobim
In twenty years they will be studying Chico Science ( yeah i know they hooked up with Paralamas and with Sepulcura, and not my favorits , but it will be Chicos work that will get remembered)
I dont know if you really get that any electric bass player in Rio playing a decent samba is playing 3/4 Luizao, I dont know if you understand the immensity of that. I guess you just dont. You are one of the people who will scream “no ,the beatles will be forever” what ever I dont know that any more than you know what i think, why in gods name to you think you know what I like or that I might all of a sudden love rock based music? Im not like a leaf in the wind , son, Ive been into Jazz, Brazilian music, Cuban music . African music and James Brown since I was 8.
They never recorded Luizaos music with him playing it ( with a couple of exceptions), it some of the best anywhere in the world. How very lucky I am to know it intimitly.
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“Yeah, when said scholar has probably put more time into this than you, when he lives here and you don’t, when he has a family history of dealing with the topic and you (probably) don’t, when he READS, WRITES and SPEAKS the language comfortably and you don’t and – crucially – when he’s done a ton of research on a much wider series of fields – ethnographic, bibliographic and historiographic – than you. Not to mention that this guys work is reviewed by his peers both in the music and academic fields and has been widely acclaimed by pretty much everyone while you’ve published… what, exactly?
Hell yeah, I think Vianna knows more about the history of Brazilian music than you do. I’m sorry if that strikes your ego, but their it is.
So tell me again: what do you think Vianna got wrong and why?”
I do live in the country, its music, its about ears, and dance is about understanding it and body immersion, I can dance better than Vianna, Im married to one of the finest Afro Brazilian dancers anywhere, she is an encyclapedia of quite a few Afro Brazilian dances, I stand by my relationships with some of the geniuses of Brazilian music, which i guarentee you dont know one 10 of my real story with them.Ive been studying these musics since i was 8, longer than him, I can read Portuguse and understand documentaries on tv,
no i dont think i know more than him about Brazilian music, I just dont wilt in comparison to his knowledge, but you do compared to mine.
Im sorry if you think scholars and their ilk are the last word, they sure arnt mine.They dont know squat about jazz, I wouldnt trust a scholars idea about what jazz compared to talking to a real musician is. Sorry to burst your little bubble.
You know , all due respect to Ana, I do like you alls research, but, her little terms like “Imperial privleged travlers from the empire..” dont impress me one iota
How about I just let my wife wail on her instead and show her how profound an afro brazilian woman who really knows the deep roots of her country is like.
Fanon? you are the expert on him, I just dont buy the lets psycho analyse every one and point our slimy little fingers at them with fetish conclusions.Ill leave that up to you
so sorry your attemt to dig at my portuguese skills doesnt affect me one iota, i know you are betting the farm on that to try to get to me, but, it just doesnt amount to hill of beans in your argument
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You think Paralamas will be my favorite band in 20 years and recognised more than Luizao?
Recognized more than Luizão? They already are. YOUR favorite band…?
Let’s put it this way: if trends continue the way they are, I fully expect to see you bobble your head along with the rest of the hipsters when, 20 years from now, the “really great people” in Brazilian music publicly attribute their skill to Paralamas’ influence, describing the band as Brazilian through and through. Whether or not you actually LIKE them is another question entirely, but I expect that you’ll cheerfully hail them as great Brazilian artists along with the rest.
Are you having fun yet,Thad?
Bunches.
Who sais I cant read Portuguese?
Comfortably and fluently? Complicated texts? I very much doubt it, if, as you say, your Portuguese is only “good enough to get around”. And I bet that you do not live here. I bet this is your situation: you live in an east coast american metropolis and come down here a few months out of every year. Maybe occasionally you spend up to sex months here. You may even own property here. But Brazil is not your home, nor are you a member of the res publica. That’s my best guess. Given that you hide behind anonymity, we’ll never really know, will we? 😀
Its just not the definitive word on Brazilian culture. Why would you say I hated what he said?
Did you READ the book, by the way? This entire argument started because you apparently disagree with Vianna’s thesis. I’m wondering now if you know what it is.
I cant beleive your ignorance here. You have no distintion of what the African contribution to the world is, what its genius is.
I only say this because you started it, B.R.: I’d be willing to bet dollars to donuts that I know a lot more about African cultural history than you do. Sorry, there is no specifically “African” contribution. Africa is too big and diverse to have any one cultural element in common that the continent doesn’t also share with many other nmon-African groups. Your view that “Africa” is somehow a cohesive cultural unit is simply a politically correct, touchy-feely version of the old racist canard that blacks are fundamentally all alike.
Sorry, man, but internalized racism is a bitch and we all have it. This particular view you have of African cultural unity seems to betray yours.
You know Europe had the church lording over everyone that they cant have pelvic thrusts. They have no concept of groove. The syncopation is stiff and minimal.
All over Europe, everywhere, over the last 2000 years, huh? Sorry, man. even I know more about European musical variation than that.
You are making two cultural PARODIES which you then lable “European” and “African”. You then raise your subjective definition of “groove” to be THE defining and key characteristic of music – which, frankly, is the kind of ethnocentric and exoticist position one historically sees in white American hipsters who are interested in “black” music. BAM! You’ve now created a new musical taxonomy which seems to adequately describe what you see in the world.
Congrats! As mythological taxonomies go, it’s actually quite sophisticated. What it is NOT, however, is cultural history. It is, in fact, a PARODY of cultural history created by your selective emphasis of some facts (to wit, the relative polyrythmic density of MOST tradional African music as opposed to most Modern European miusic) and your convenient ignorance or occulting of others (the polyrythmic density of several non-modern and traditional European forms of music).
My only point since the beginning, B.R., is that while your mythology may work fine for you and in fact aid you to become a better musician, it is not cultural history. Period.
Ever hear of Rudy Valee? He was the pop star of the 20’s. He was the Paralamas of back then. Guess what, nobody remembers him. They study what Louis Armstrong and Duke Ellington did now.
And here’s one of the problems lack of a real cultural historical comparative matrix causes: you seem to presume here that Brazilian musical history is simply American musical history rewrit small. Pop has an entirely different dynamic down here than it does in the States. Once a pop figure has reached a certain point in the public consciousness, they have to really screw the pooch in a very public way in order to be forgottn (Wilson Simonal being probably the best case in point).
But the tendency in Brazilian musical history – for close to 150 years now – is that yesterday’s poptarts become tomorrow’s True Blue Examples of Brazilian Visionary Genius. Now, let’s not think I’m talking EVERY pop star here. Certainly, few people are going to remember Kelly Key as anything more than an amusing flash in the pan 100 years from now.
But as long as BRAZIL remains a national project in construction, in need of a usable cultural history upon which to build its national myths, then you’d better bet your bottom dollar that today’s massive pop stars will become tomorrow’s national cultural idols.
Hell, this is occurring right now even with Wilson Simonal, for chrissake! With bloody CHACRINHA! Ask your 50-something hipster pals what they thought of Chacrinha and odds are they’ll say “tripe”. Ask the same thing of a 20 year old hipster and odds are he’ll give you some damn spiel about Chacrinha’s brilliant successful juxtaposition of Brazilian tradional cultures to the T.V. variety show format.
Brazilian culture is an industry here, B.R. and the kind of people who are teaching you about it are its gatekeepers. They are NOTORIOUSLY fickle in their opinions – as a class, if not as individuals – over the medium to long term. There are no absolutes with this crowd that aren’t contextual. One would think that 20 years of supposedly living here would have taught you that.
In twenty years they will be studying Chico Science ( yeah i know they hooked up with Paralamas and with Sepulcura, and not my favorits , but it will be Chicos work that will get remembered)
Here’s your dichotic American winners/losers mentality peeking through. Sure they’ll remember Chico. Just like today we remember Tom Zé. But that doesn’t mean Tom has suddenly puched Chico and Caetano into obsurity and Chico, likewise, will not occult Paralamas. Chico will be seen as the brilliant genius of his generation and Paralamas will be seen as the great pop pioneers. Plenty of room for both in the new mythology that’s currently being built, B.R. And gringos like you, 20 years from now, will be touching your caps to both as “truly original expressions of Brazilian culture”. 😀
I can dance better than Vianna, Im married to one of the finest Afro Brazilian dancers anywhere, she is an encyclapedia of quite a few Afro Brazilian dances…
Fine. I mix a mean caipirinha. NONE of that has any bearing whatsoever on our understanding of Brazilian cultural history. Think about how ridiculous you sound, B.R.: you’re saying that because you’re a great dancer, you know more about Brazilian cultural history than one of the country’s most universally renowned musical anthropologists and historians.
With that kind of view, I can’t understand why you can’t read and write Portuguese adequately. I mean if DANCE allows history to seep through your ears via osmosis, it should also due the same for basic literacy, don’t you think?
(And when I say “read”, I don’t mean follow the newspapers. I mean picking up a book like “Casa Grande e Senzala” and getting through that with no significant problems – something Vianna, assuredly, has no trouble at all with. I mean being able to carry out this discussion we’re having in written Portuguese).
Im sorry if you think scholars and their ilk are the last word…
Winners and losers again, huh? They aren’t the “last word”. That’s your gloss. Cultural historians ARE more qualified to speak on their area of expertise than amateur dabblers. Their opinions, for one thing, have to be peer-reviewed. Saying this does not deny laymen’s expoerience nor is it a radical thing. When my plumbing breaks, I go to a trained plumber, not to my neighbor who thinks that because he can use a sink, he’s qualified to take one apart and put it together.
I’d say that you and Vianna have different areas of expertise. No one has ever denied that. What you seem to think, however, is that knowing how to dance samba suddenly makes you an expert on its history. Vianna wouldn’t say that knowing the history of music qualifies him to front for Elza Soares.
So who’s really being arrogant here, B.R.? Who’s claiming the last word in areas outside their expertise? it’s netiher me nor Vianna, friend: it’s you.
You know , all due respect to Ana, I do like you alls research, but, her little terms like “Imperial privleged travlers from the empire..” dont impress me one iota
Well, Ana’s a social scientist. She beliefs that human phenomena exist well beyond the individual level and it is in this sense that she made her comments on privilege. The power to move about this world as one chooses is definitely not equally distributed and to pretend that it is is in my view jejeune. Given your apparent beliefs – that everything which occurs to individuals, all their rights and privileges, are a manifestation of said individual’s will or lack thereof – I’m frankly surprised that you even admit that racism exists.
How about I just let my wife wail on her instead and show her how profound an afro brazilian woman who really knows the deep roots of her country is like.
I’m sure Ana would enjoy that. But the real question is why can’t you? After 20 years here, your Portuguese should DEFINITELY be up to the task. This isn’t a dig: it’s a simple fact. unless, of course, you’re living like so many gringos who “just love Brazil” in a basically English-speaking world.
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two differant tribes from Africa playing a very similar beat
the second very close to a Gua gua co
I just shattered your whole African argument, you look like a fool ,i could do this all day
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zulu drumming, the first part not far from the beats above, the second part in 6/8
you are starting to try my patience with your running off about what you think is African culture
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Here is something Hermano missed that I think he would like.
Coco Raiz. The African roots are blatent. The melodie is what is fascinating, if you slowed it down and put a shuffle on it, it could be a blues from the States.
I dont care what you think some surface concept of how pop culture is going to be remembered. Its groups like these and Aurinha de Coco who will be carrying a tradition that will be examinied in 100 years that is important. Your analysis seems really petty and short sighted to me. Really weak.
No I am never going to tip my hat to the rockers in Brazilian culture. Its you and Ana who will be, I just dont respect your opinion at all
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Here is something Hermano missed that I think he would like.
You think that anything Hermano couldn’t fit into a half-hour long documentary p’ra gringo ver, he needs must be unaware of, is that it?
I just dont respect your opinion at all.
And that’s the ultimate problem here: you won’t respect any opinion which might call the fabricated roots of your personal musical origin myth into question.
Well good on you, B.R.! I’m equally certain that if we were to look at the historical roots of Coco Raizes, we’d find that they were as syncretic as anything else is here. We have people out in Rio’s serras studying jongo right now and it’s a similar story everywhere: sure, there are some cultural survivals and just as manny cultural acretions. It ain’t a pure, millenial, untouched surviving tradition.
But I think Ana’s point is right on spot here: if we were to apply your view of what is “good” and “authentic” in Brazil to American black culture, Michael Jackson is irrelevant as is pretty much every black pop star over the last hundred years. The only REAL black american music would be a handful of experimental jazz artists and some field singers out in the Carolina Sea Islands. 😀
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Please, English only on this blog! If you want to quote something in another language, please provide a translation or paraphrase.
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abagond clipped some relavant you tubes you missed
but lets get this straight, Thad, you implied I was almost a racist for my concept on sub sahara Africa, yet i just blew your bs out of the water. You are coming up real short, your credibility aproaches nil
And you are trying to tell me that Brazilian pop will be the standard remembered in 20 years for Brazilian culture.
Well isnt that special, since Brazilian pop is mostly white and pushed into the media by the companies paying big bucks to get their mostly white rock artists exposure and make them history.The Brazilian media is a big prostitute open to the highest bidder and its about as racist as anything in Brazil.
Your scholars are going to force on the history books, a white racist veiw of Brazilian culture , and Hermano for sure is going to make his brother part of it, Mean while, the great players and foclorico groups are going to be left in the dust. That is what you are all for and about , that makes you a chump.And that is why i dont trust scholars
You have made a lot of trash talking implications, like i dont live in Brazil ( you think telling you who i am is going to change your pillsberry dough boy smother the truth with soft white nothingness implications), like Im racist for my African concept that i just proved with out a doubt is true, that if I bring in Coco Raiz its pra gringo ver(? that is idiotic) and any number of bs lies you have put here.
But its you supporting the white racist media crap that is shoved down people throats that is your position here. That makes you a hypocrite
Another falacy you put out, like the Brazil history is based on its pop past. Think about the thirties, what the young people are flocking to learn now, is the chorinhos, the players music. Another example of how wrong you are and that in the far future, its the real players and foclorico that is going to be checked out, and Brazilian rock is going to fade into the dust.
And, what i tried to say in the post that was clipped is, I dont hate paralamas, or hermano, I just see them in the real perspective of who is the more important people to watch. Paralamas is one of the better rock groups, but, what i said was, the people i know blow them out of the water on the bandstand, and that is true.I never said anything was wrong with Hermanos book, that was your bs, i just said there are many more important things to be checking out also.
Your petty insults are really weak, you have come up short over and over, i cant give your music opinion any respect what so ever, stick to Fanon
agagond, he was ragging me ad infinitum about my portugese, i mean he got his on, but, go ahead, its your blog.
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and i do mean blow them out of the water…
Paulo Russo
Paralamas
Ill let the people here come to their own conclusions
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“like Im racist for my African concept that i just proved with out a doubt is true, that if I bring in Coco Raiz its pra gringo ver(? that is idiotic) and any number of bs lies you have put ”
just to clarify, what is true is my concept of how rhythms of sub sahara Africa, have similarities…not that it is racist, that is what Thad implied
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misspelled you name , abagond
Hey Thad, if you think being able to make a caiparinha is equal to dancing samba, that is exactly the problem with your position.
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Thad sais :
“Your view that “Africa” is somehow a cohesive cultural unit is simply a politically correct, touchy-feely version of the old racist canard that blacks are fundamentally all alike.
Sorry, man, but internalized racism is a bitch and we all have it. This particular view you have of African cultural unity seems to betray yours”
That is a pretty low blow acuasation , there , Thad.But Youtube is pretty awesome. You can say a million words, and scholors love to say a huge amount of words, but there is absolulty nothing , especialy when we are talking music here, better than looking at the real thing. And , I just showed 3 examples from 3 completly differant areas of sub sahara Africa , that conclusivly show that they had a thread of similarity that represents the African genius and that was transfered to the Americas and was represented in various grooves like , gua gua co, mambo, certain grooves from Bahia, like what the atabaques play to the galope , super fast, and axe , certain capoeira beats (slower)and certain condomble beats , some Jamaican calypso and other Caribean grooves.
Can I expect some kind of acknowledgement that my concepts and ideas have a validity?
Because you have blown a lot close to insulting wind my way, and , Im proving you to be wrong
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Thad, you implied I was almost a racist for my concept on sub sahara Africa, yet i just blew your bs out of the water.
First of all, I PRESUME that you are a racist on some level or another, like almost everyone in the west, myself included and I made this VERY clear. The concept that all sub-saharan cultures are essentially similar – THAT is racist and that is what I’m criticizing, not you as a supposed racist.
And you are trying to tell me that Brazilian pop will be the standard remembered in 20 years for Brazilian culture.
No, I’m trying to tell you that Brazilian pop has ALWAYS helped defined what it is to be Brazilian, usually at a 50 year remove. “Popular”, friend. Look the word up in Portuguese: there IS noessential difference between that term and the “folkloric” you so love to toss around. Both mean “what the people do”.
What was crap two generations ago becomes today’s “true Brazilian sound” for most people. As much as I hate the idea, by 2060, today’s crapola funk will probably be stepping up to that particular plate. By 2030, people will be praising the Brasilia rock sound as pure Brazilian innovation instead of cultural theft. In fact, it’s happening already.
Well isnt that special, since Brazilian pop is mostly white and pushed into the media by the companies paying big bucks to get their mostly white rock artists exposure and make them history.The Brazilian media is a big prostitute open to the highest bidder and its about as racist as anything in Brazil.
LOL! No kidding! And this is supposed to be news? We’re talking about national myths here: who’s been in charge of the Brazilian national myth for the last 500 years? You’re suprised and shocked that this is the case – different than, say, the U.S., where “black” culture isn’t considered national culture either, but rather some rarified ethnic subset thereof?
Your scholars are going to force on the history books, a white racist veiw of Brazilian culture , and Hermano for sure is going to make his brother part of it,…
Here we go again: you haven’t even read Vianna’s book, but you already think you know all about it. I’m sorry, man, that’s just ignorant.
Vianna, in fact, has managed to dig up more of the forgotten roots of samba than any other scholar I know of. In particular, he’s criticized its use by the Vargas regime to PROMOTE the idea that a cohesive Brazilian culture exists. Vianna is very much a doubter of official culture.
Oh, and by the way, those “folkloric, roots” musical forms you’re on about? Most of them wouldn’t be around today and CERTAINLY wouldn’t be performing for publics larger than a small village if it weren’t for government culture subsidies. Folklore has been heavily subsidized in Brazilian history. It certainly has no call to complain that it’s forgotten. You think “the people” put on things like the national jongo festival or the Portable Music School (which teaches choro to kids here in Rio)? Dream on, man… 😀
But its you supporting the white racist media crap that is shoved down people throats that is your position here.
Oh, come down off your high horse, B.R.. Where have I said I support anything of the kind? All I’ve done is explain what’s happened in the past with supposed “trash” pop forms and say that I believe that this is going to continue in the future. I also believe that your President Obama is going to continue the war in Afganistan and Iraq in the future, too. That doesn’t mean I support you Americans killing innocent civilians.
As for you “proving” things… Let me see if I understand this: you cherry pick a few videos of African music – some by groups of peoples who you can’t name, whose history you don’t know, whose MUSICAL history you don’t know, you proclaim that they all have the “same essential groove” and you think that this proves that all subsaharan cultures are essentially similar?
Do tell, B.R.
Think about the thirties, what the young people are flocking to learn now, is the chorinhos, the players music. Another example of how wrong you are and that in the far future, its the real players and foclorico that is going to be checked out, and Brazilian rock is going to fade into the dust.
Actually, that’s PRECISELY what I’m saying. Back in the 1930s, chorinhos were NOT considered quality music. Guys like you turned their noses up at it. Now, however, it’s been reclaimed as a true and “authentic” Brazilian sound. That rock you hate so much is going to “fade” because it’s going to become reclassified by music snobs such as yourself into something “truly Brazilian”. They’ll probably insist on changing the name to “roque” or something, just to make their point.
As Roberto da Matta says, “Brazil doesn’t pass through historical epochs, Brazil collects historical epochs”. Whether something is trash or not is a PURELY subjective decision, my friend, made up of fashion and politics and NOTHING else. Today’s Brazilian trash will inevitably become tomorrow’s “roots ‘n real” Brazilian sound, exactly as was the case with choro. Took choro 60 years to get there, but like I’ve been saying, this is a long-term process. Choro players were not considered to be “real and folklorico” back in 1920. They were by and large considered to be “not really good musicians and certainly nothing that you could call ‘serious culture’ “. When Chiquinha played the Presidential Palace, people were scandalized. Pixinguinha had to go to France before people began to realize that he was good. And you know who DECLARED Pixinguinha to be “roots and folclorico”? People like Gilberto Freyre and Sérgio Buarque de Holanda – the self-same “scholarly elite” that you poo-poo as not being in touch with “real” Brazilian music. 😀 It’s because of them that you are aware of him today, B.R., not because of the “great and creative resistance of the Brazilian people”.
This is what I find ironic about this whole deal: gringos like you would have never even heard of jongo if Brazilian scholars and academics hadn’t been deputized by the Estado Novo back in the 1930s and ’40s to put their stamp of approval on all things folkloric and “really Brazilian”. You also would have never heard about it if your mostly middle-class hipster friends hadn’t gotten seriously into in it in the 1990s. You didn’t “discover” these sounds up on the hill, friend: you had some middle class Brazilian musical snob take you to them and tell you in suitably hushed tones that this was “real roots Brazilian culture”. 😀 😀 😀 😀
Ask where all those “roots” and “good” musicians you love from the 1940s to the ’80s cut their teeth as national public figures: on Radio Nacional, founded and run by that arch-intellectual scholar, Edgar Roquette-Pinto. I bet your pals today absolutely cream their jeans when they talk about how wonderful “Radio Nacional” was back in the day.
Pull your thumb out, B.R.: NOTHING is more moderated by the Brazilian scholarly elite than what is “truly” considered to be “real” Brazilian culture this year. You should THANK Vianna because he’s the one who’s alerting us to this fact. “The people” by and large don’t give a sweet flying f@#$ about jongo and Coco Raiz and they only know Chico Science because he did the right thing and sold out to the gravadoras. You know what “the people” are listening to, freind? Calypso. And I do not mean the musical form…
Hey Thad, if you think being able to make a caiparinha is equal to dancing samba, that is exactly the problem with your position.
There speaks a man who doesn’t know how to make a good caipirinha. 😀 It’s the apparently simple things in life that are often very hard, B.R.
But again, I ask you: what does your dancing samba or my knowing how to make a caipirinha have to do with either of our understandings of Brazilian cultural history?
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Thady ThadyThady
Your notions are about as foolish as foolish can get.No dilly scholar passed on knowledge of Samba da Roda to my wife. She is the source, and got it from the sources up there, as well as condomble, axe, and many other dances and beats.
And , you are talking about university music students who wait for blow hard scholars like you to pass the ok. The great musicians in Brazil always knew the value of choro , and, not fromt he radio, that is for the public, they learned it form othe musicians.
To equate choro with rock and its three chord knowledge is mind boggling.
You cant hide behind your Brazilian passport and portuguese to pass off bs to me . Your credibility is shot. The Youtubes speak for themselves, your words sound extremly hollow and shallow in comparison.
And your bowel movements on my charactor are dirty and speak of an insecure blow hard who is just bsing himself.
Have you read “Frevo ate Manguebeat “? Well i have , back off your riding my portuguese
And id be extremly disapointed if you havent read the biography of Elza Soares.
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Great musicians pass information on the bandstand and that is how it gets passed down. They know the originators who pass it down to the next generation and to the next. You hear things on the radio, you learn on the bandstand. You know absolutly nothing about the bandstand.
If i know so little about these African rhythms, why can i hear them and be able to identify which grooves they hook up with in the Americas. Like the pattern in the Sengalise clip that is a direct root of the cascara pattern of Cuban music.Or how they directly relate to the Brazilian grooves I discussed
Another reason I wont wilt with Vianna but you do to me is that i do have the overveiw of Brazilian music culture with Haition music culture, with Cuban music culture and American music culture and how they relate to African music culture.That is how i can see the similarities with candomble, voodoo and santera and even into the black American church.
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If you are so musicaly smart
Tell me exactly the innovation that Luizao was responsible for.You cant google that up, buddy
Tell me origin of Tambor de Criola
What really put bossa nova on the map around the world? And what is the real history of how it broke in the USA
And let me tell you, most of the great artists i know dont get any benifits from these organizations you are talking about.
Most of the great coco groups i know dont get anything, They struggle in obscurity, and what happens is a few people get the grants and get the exposure. Salu got all the exposure,i had to find Coco Raiz by huge reseach. Jornal de Comercial is one of the best cultural news papers in Brazil. And they contacted me after an article about me in that paper.
My wife is a great Brazilian dancer who is profesional and has more real culture dripping from her than most recognised performers , she never got one bit of help from these organisations
You know, the great musicians i know never let the trash talkers dictate what was good and wasnt. They dug up the information themselves by going to the bandstand and to the great older musicians. The radio doesnt play most of what these people learn.Any great musician will tell you the radio is extremly shallow,they have to dig much deeper
You keep putting me in with these trash talkers, you are really ignorant about where im coming from
I would say its the same in jazz, but you are so uptight about these kind of referances that you would say your stupid anti american crap, which you can shove under a rock
See, as well as being arrogant, you are uptight, scholorly uptight
Paulo Russo wipes out Paralamas
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For Gods sake , do you really think Luizao and Paulo are these nazi for choro university students of the 90’s?
you really do get boring, please, stick to Fanon, and the subjects you really know. You really came up short on the African youtubes. They really speak for themselves. I have a bunch of records too,been listening to the Folkways records when you were in diapors
man all you are is blah blah blah blah blah blah
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No dilly scholar passed on knowledge of Samba da Roda to my wife. She is the source, and got it from the sources up there, as well as condomble, axe, and many other dances and beats.
Sorry to pop your bubble, B.R., but your wife also probably thinks Radio Nacional was just the bee’s knees. I’m sure she’s listened to a lot of stuff and I’m equally sure she’s probably not aware how much of that stuff was there for her to listen to because of its glorification by a bunch of academics back in the 1940s.
As for Axé… You want me to take you seriously about how “great and original and folkloric and uncorporate” your wife’s musical tastes are and you bring up Axé? Ah, yes. No corporation touches Axé. It’s a roots tradition of the people… 😀
Axé is big bidniz, B.R. and has been for over 20 years. It ossified as a musical form some time following Carlinho’s Brown’s defection to pop and every year we get to watch the same-old, same-old on Rede Globo when Bahia’s Carnaval comes up on the screen.
Axé. Whoopdie-doodle, my friend. Now THERE’S a serious roots Brazilian musical form for you! 😀 😀 😀 😀
Axé is an excellent example, by the way, of how yesterday’s pop crap becomes today’s “Real Brazilian Sound”. Your wife didn’t have to truck up any old hill to hear axé, B.R. In fact, if she was like the rest of us back in the early 90s, she would have had to truck FAR, FAR away, up onto a mountain off into the hinterlands in order to NOT hear Axé. And even then, odds are good she’d find some damned paulista backpacker playing Pivete Semgraça on his portable tape system. 😀
Hoo-rah for Axé, the most over-marketed Brazilian pop musical form of the last 30 years.
“Candomblé” (note spelling) is not a dance but a religion, renowned in Brazil today for being the gay religion. You heard me right, B.R.: that’s whose keeping the terreiros going and funded these days: not “the roots”, but middle-class homosexuals who (because they are Brazilian) have a yearning for God but who have been rejected from every other organized religion in the country for loving members of their own sex. The “roots” – both here and in Bahia – is getting into U.S.-based evangelism in a very big way. The “roots” tends to think that candomblé is satanism. Here in Rio, those nice “popular, folkloric and afro-centric” roots guys occasionally show up to trash a terreiro or beat fieis. And you know who is one of the major groups in the National Congress pointing out that this is religious intolerance and fighting for police protection for the terreiros? You guessed it: those self-same “elitist and racist scholars” who are so out of touch with the people. These are the guys who got the terreiros of Bahia declared as national treasures, B.R., not Axé musicians.
By the way, why are these academic elites doing this? Again, because back in the 1940s people like Gilberto Freyre declared candomblé to be truly Brazilian and, back in the 1960s and ’70s, the people who were today’s academics mentors were wildly in love with Candomblé because it was so authentic – rather like today’s academics and their love affair with Forró during their undergraduate years in the 1990s.
By the way, Forró is an excellent example of the syndrome I’m talking about. David Byrne once made a Forró disk called “Music for Maids and Taxi Drivers”. It got that title because back in the 1980s, when he cut it, everyone of his hip Brazilian musicophile friends who learned about his interest in Forró said: “OMG! Grody!! That’s music for maids and taxi drivers!”
Comes the late 1990s and all of a sudden Forró became hip among these people’s nephews and nieces because it was oh so “roots Brazil”. The young middle class was madly in love with Luiz Gonzaga and if you were a hip young thing with an instrument and NOT playing in a forró band, you weren’t s*&%.
Then, ’round about 2002, everybody started flocking over to Choro and the Forró craze “faded into the dust”, as you put it. Don’t worry though: it may not be pop anymore, but it DID finally acquire its middle-class seal of approval, so it’s assured funding from the Ministry of Culture for at least the next twenty years, long enough for a new group of university kids to “discover” it all over again. That’s how these things get by from generation to generation. 😀
And , you are talking about university music students who wait for blow hard scholars like you to pass the ok.
Let me tell you something as a Brazilian university professor who has known more university students in his time than you can possibly imagine: students do not consider us nor the university to be the fountainhead of knowledge. In fact, there’s NOTHING more typical, among those music students you disdain (but who probably make up a good portion of your Brazilian friends), than the type of opinion which you are spouting off right here: that truth and beauty is lies with the people in the streets and not in some dusty library.
Why do students believe this? Because it’s a hell of a lot more fun to go down to the Pelô, drink a beer and watch Timbalada than it is to crack open a book in some flourescent-lit academic dungeon.
I know of no Brazilian musical student who waits for any professor to declare anything at all about musical quality. These kids have made up their own minds as to what’s cool and what’s not long before we get to them. In fact, you’ve got it turned around bassackwards: it is these musical students who are, more often than not, responsible for making some hitherto ignored bit of Brazilian pop culture “respectable”, giving it the shine of “authenticity” that musical elitists like yourself mistake for “quality”. Want to make a career in Brazilian musical studies? Hype some minor folk tradition to the gills out in gringolândia as an authentic survival of “X” culture and a sterling example of Brazilian roots,
That’s the way things work here, B.R.
I’m really surprised that after 20 years pooting around the Brazilian music bidniz, you have not figured this out and are still entranced by fabricated and hyped “folklore” like Axé.
Have you read “Frevo ate Manguebeat “?
Yeah, I have. So let me get this straight: you think a book by a journalist who’s actively involved in trying to hype the Pernambucan scene ISN’T a gear of that corporate, elitist cultural machine that you despise, but that Vianna’s book – which hypes nothing at all and in fact DEMYSTIFIES quite a bit of samba – is a conspiracy by racist corporate lackeys to hype Paralamas? 😀 😀 😀 😀
What is your definition of “roots”, anyway, B.R.? “If my wife likes it, it must be roots?” “If I read about it in the ‘Jornal Commerical’ it must be roots?”:D
Most of the great coco groups i know dont get anything, They struggle in obscurity, and what happens is a few people get the grants and get the exposure. Salu got all the exposure,i had to find Coco Raiz by huge reseach. Jornal de Comercial is one of the best cultural news papers in Brazil. And they contacted me after an article about me in that paper.
My wife is a great Brazilian dancer who is profesional and has more real culture dripping from her than most recognised performers , she never got one bit of help from these organisations.
Well, job opening for you, then, my man! Given what you know about how the music bidniz works in this country and given your vast number of celebrity contacts, it should be VERY easy for you to hype Coco to the gills among the NYC hip set, just like Byrne did with Tom Zé. Do that for a few years and I’m sure you can get your friends a nice chunk of the federal folkloric pie.
They’ll be ever so grateful they might even forget that you are a gringo. 😀
Hell, those “music students” you snob off would DIE to be in your position. You could make bundles of bucks and acquire massive ammounts of cultural status. Then you could be JUST like this guy right here, a real Brazilian “cultural promoter”:
Who knows? In a few more years, you too could be selling canned Brazilian cultural roots and feel good about your supporting authentic Brazilian culture while you do so:
(Both clips taken from the film “Cronicamente Inviável”.)
What are you waiting for? If I were your wife, I’d be complaining that you haven’t yet mounted up your musical safari and hauled your trophies back to be mounted on the wall of some U.S. Hard Rock Café. 😀
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…real culture…
Now there’s an interesting concept. Define “real culture” for me as opposed to “fake culture”, please.
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For those who can’t follow Portuguese at all or very well, here’s a transcript of the first clip. The attitude I’m talking about, note, is so common in Brazil that film makers can PARODY it for laughs. This is the face of the great Bahian folkloric scene that B.R.’s on about. A parody, sure. Hyperbolic, sure. But the essential critique is spot on and very real.
[Scene: Apoador Beach in Rio de Janeiro. A large, drunken crowd of middle class people gather in front of stage]
[Cut to two guys: a slick, blow-dried, 30-something white promoter in sunglasses and a rayon shirt and a frumpy 50-something white academic watch the band come on stage]
[Promoter turns to Academic and grabs him by the shoulder…]
P: People criticize me. I want to see what they do. I took all these kids right off the street, man. I’m talking about dignity, understand? I got them all a dignified job. We’ve already put on a lot of shows. Made A LOT of money.
[Academic makes a face]
P: So you think that’s bad, huh? You think that’s bad…
[Cut to stage. Banner behind the band reads “Bahian Cultural Week”. Band starts drumming. The band is made up of maybe 20 underfed black kids, most obviously minors. They are without shirts or shoes and dressed in identical cheap blue pants. The obvious visual reference for anyone who knows anything about Brazilian history is a band of young slaves.]
[Cut to multi-racial middle class crowd, dancing and drinking to the music. They are highly differentiated, each one an individual, wearing fashionable swimwear and sunglasses.]
P: Just look at ’em. Look at ’em girl! [Promoter claps hands and shakes the hand of a random girl on the other side of the Academic]
P: All you gotta do is give a chance to these boys and they’ll go far, man!
[Promoter shakes academic by shoulders. Academic turns and stalks away in disgust. Promoter continues with his soliloquoy, momentarily unaware that he’s talking to himself]
P: Why don’t we try to take them to New York? Take them to Florida? Brazil really has a lot to show the world, y’know? Don’t you think….?
[Promoter turns to empty space recently occupied by Academic and is surprised to find he’s talking to the air. Frowns and turns back to the band. Gives them the old white guy double-fisted “you rock” hand pump.]
[Cut back to band who finish their selection competently but disinterestedly].
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…and here’s the second clip.
Academic wanders through the middle of the Bahian Carnaval. Axé music blares as the camera pans across an almost all-white crowd of uniformed revelers who have paid for the priviledge to be allowed to follow the sound truck. Academic stops to watch crowd.]
A: Happiness: a perfect form of authoritarian domination.
[Cut to military police using billy clubs to keep mostly black and poor ununiformed revelers away from the soundtruck.]
Police: Get! Behind the rope! Move!
[Academic watches, detached]
A: But it’s interesting how people still insist on criticizing Bahia. People say that it’s envy of the genius of the ‘Bahian Project’.
[Academic turns and walks through the crowd, moving away from the sound truck while everyone else is heading towards it]
A: While the rest of the world tries to dominate the masses through capitalism, socialism, war, revolution and even consumerism, the Bahians do things differently. They do just enough to generate happiness. Keep everyone poor, put a sound system out on the street and there you go. OK, they’re geniuses. But why are the people who don’t want to act happy obligated to participate?
[Camera pans back until Academic is lost in a crowd of revelers.]
A: If everyone prefers to be happy, why don’t we just forget about this “Order and Progress” stuff? [“Order and Progress” being the words written on the Brazilian flag] Why don’t we take up for once and for all the fiction of this moribund, rotten and pissed upon happiness? This overmarketed image of canned Brazilian happiness which is good for everyone, always?
[Camera pans across crowd, which is reduced to a mass of pululating points]
A: I’m too old to make money off this crap.
[Cut to two young men pissing on a doorstep while a bunch of young women pass by].
Young woman: Don’t you have your own house to go piss on, you pigs?
[One of the young man glances at her disinterestedly as she walks off-camera. The men then shake themselves dry and one of them reaches up to unlock the door. They walk in. It is their house.]
[Cut to stream of urine, slowly trickling it’s way across and around Pelourinho’s picturesque cobblestones. Police helicopter noises sound in the background. Urine stream runs into a young black man with ripped clothes who’s lying face down, unconscious in the gutter. Urine pools under his face as helicopter sounds increase.]
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Again, your understanding of the real Bahian culture is weak. I was in Bahia way before the comercial axe movement came about, which is not my favorite , since you have 3 white girls as the leaders, 2 of whom are ok. But what is good about that movement is the revenue and employment it generates,and it is a lot.
I was in Brazil before you, that is when i made my contacts. By the way I liked Byrnes documentary but i dont like his or Arto Lindseys music. I hang with the best, in New York and Rio and Recife.You are just a Wisconson white rock boy with your taste, very week
But my wife comes from the real axe, she is the real axe, you want to know what is real, she is one of the real talents. Two time world music billboard charting artist along side notable names like Marisa Monte and Margarath Manezes and world names on the same charts. She has paid her dues and any one lucky enough to see her dance is seeing the real deal.
Where she lived has nothing to do with the gay side you flipantly homophobicly describe, its reality in that place, huge amounts of houses and practicers, which she isnt, but she snuck into those places and learned drums and the dances, which is a very valuable part of that culture outside the religious part. It has great value to study those dances and beats. You obviously dont get that.
The truth is , its about the power of the black women in Bahia, its about their unity in the face of the poverty and neglect. You really are insulting them with your flipant homophobic description.
I mean what is this hip hip hurray for the scholarly intellects to be giving this reconginitions, its what the heck they are suposed to be doing, and its too little.Its bread crumbs.
When Vianna records Luizao’s music , you let me know, his web site is a lot more boring than Jose Teles book.
Im talking about the music students, you dont know anything about music so you wouldnt know
I really laugh at people like you and any of your kind that use the gringo as a scape goat, it shows the weakness of your arguments, i just step over it like its waste, those are really tired and shows you dont have a handle to to really discuss what is really important about the music and culture.
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Not impressed with your clips, I like the drums though.Again, huge amount of people make money from the movement. and I dont like a bunch of the acts, but ,any music movement that can get some funds in peoples pockets is healthy. Like i said I was in Bahia way before it was a big deal , and Recife only started to get the recognition it deserves. I was there also way before it started to get on peoples map.Its just amazing the weakness of your arguments, the flipantness, the insults.
Lets see now, you have managed to insult candomble , Luizao Maia, Jose Teles, Paulo Russo and some really top notch musicians who were funtioning way before the 90’s, you have insulted the opinion of really great musicians the world over who recognise that sub sahara Africa is the roots for the pop music of all the countries African slaves were brought to, therefor insulting people who you feel their racial pride in that.
For you, the rock movement is the bees knees , like that is some kind of jewal, you never mentioned Tim Maia or Eddie Motta, people who could hang with the greats and mean something,
Im afraid you are played out, you come up short and all you can do is scape goat the gringos, which is a sure sign of the weakness of your arguments.You know, Imperial Empire sham jive when you dont have a leg to stand on.
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Not impressed with your clips, I like the drums though.
You would. That was the point. The slick white dude is making money hand over fist off those kids and all the spectators can think is “Wow! Great drumming!”
Thanks for proving my point, B.R.
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Where she lived has nothing to do with the gay side you flipantly homophobicly describe…
Oh, get real, B.R. How is mentioning the very well known fact that homosexual men are making a big entrance into candomblé “homophobic”? That makes no sense at all, unless you happen to think that simply MENTIONING gays is homophobic.
Now there’s some real logic for you.
Jeezis, you really think you’re plugged into some sort of deep spiritual roots thing, don’t you? It absolutely offends you that someone could come along and say “This culture is contigent, transitory and syncretic, like all culture.” You’ve really got some huge ego involvement in the idea that there’s “real” and “fake” culture in Brazil and that you’re somehow tapped into the “real” side.
I’ve met people with “old gringo” syndrome before, B.R., but I’ve got to hand it to you: you take the cake.
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No , that is not it, its the intellectual film makers picking that as though that is the way it always is. Its an exremly limited point of veiw, like yours
Why dont you go down to Triboz and run some of your bs by him and see what he sais
Do you have the courage?
I never said anything about Vianna book, why are you lying and putting words into my posts.
I said ill keep my eye out for it but there are other great things to check out i respect more, like the musicians themselves and that the people i know can wipe Paralams off the stand, which is now put down on them, these are some of the greatest in the world.
Pauluo Russo wipes out Paralamas, i already proved that, of heh heh , you actualy dont beleive that?
Yeah, when you dont have a leg to stand on , go to the Imperial Empirde jive sham shuffle, you are real good at that
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their arguments are wead Your failure to mention the black women and their role in candomble is revealing of your agenda
You get for real, you are weak, I think you are the fake superfucial “look at me im so rio so brazilian” and you come up so short
I walk over weak people like you who use the gringo as scapegoat when when
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….when they are coming up short and dont know what they are talking about
who pat them selves and these scholars on the back for doing what the heck their suposed to be doing
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you are the Imperial Empire jive sham gringo shuffle expert
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I spent 7 years in Rio and know more incredible first class musicians than you have in how many years?
Luizao Maia, Paulo Russo, Gilson Peranzzetta, Barrosinho, Rafael Vernet, Ricardo Mattos, Luiz Avelar, Itamar Assieri, Jose Luis Maia, Idris Boudrioua, Osmar Milito, Elza Soares , Ricardo Mattos, Rafael Barata Carlos Malta, etc etc the list goes on
and I have to listen to your amateur blab?
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Sorry I have been following this debate…but not knowing where it originally started. I am somewhat confused as to what is going on here, as the discussion appears to be diverging – which is natural.
Could one of you gentlemen kindly tell me please what is it that led to this conversation starting, and what are/were those issues??
Thanks!!
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Now tell me some more about all your gringo scape goats, how they are just ruining your little party of people thinking you can shape what the history of the music and culture is
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J that post was made for Thad, who knows nothing about muscic and culture, who doesnt ackowledge that sub sahara Africa has many roots for Brazian culture and thinks that Brazilian rock is more important than the greatest musiciand the country has produced
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I brought in several African videos that clearly show the roots of much of Brazilian culture, and he denies that there is any connection.
I told him i saw a documentary of Zulus dancing a step that resembles samba that must have been around before slave were brought to Brazil, I never said it was the exact roots of that step , but that there are roots of it obviously in Africa.
Music is not Thads expertise, Im married to one of the great Afro Brazilian dancer and all he can do is ridicule and put down and put words in my mouth i didnt say in typical Thad fasion, every one knows that here.
and he is always using the gringo as his scapegoat when his arguments are weak.
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H doesnt think there is in sub sahara Africa , a logic of music in beats and dance that has connections though out sub sahara Africa even with each tribe having its own unique way to express itsefl, but some things are very similar with each tribe and i showed that on 3 you tubes
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He tried to make out candomble as a gay infested religion when in fact it is based on the black woman as the head of the house and she has her circle of black women around her, and it is very impowering for these women in a soiciety that doesnt offer much. Some men who practice, are gay, but where my wife is from , that is not true by any means
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Thanks B.R.!!
I had grasped this part of the debate, and had a feeling that it was important but the only thing I was not sure whether if it was this that started the debate.
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He tries to say Brazilian rock is going to be more important than contributions by some of the most high leval Rio musicians like Luizao Maia, when in fact, the high leval musicians know he is a great innovator and will be remembered when all the rock bands will be forgotten
Scores of great bass players in Rio copy the style he innovated
Thad is constantly lying about what i have said about people he loves. I never read his heros book , I said I would try to get it but i have sources that give me a lot moer about the true nature of the culture , like my wife who is a great Afto Brazilian dancer
and I have lived in Brazil longer than him and he can only call me a deluded gringo. The pot calling the kettle black
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It did start with him reccomending Hermano Viannas book, which i said i would check out, but i have sources i depend on more like great musicians and dancers and my 24 years of experiance.
After that, he started slinging mud in true Thad run off at the mouth fasion, and i just dont back down and inch because he tries to make it seem that he is the expert on brazil
Thad is very intelligent at what he has studied, he hasnt studied music like i have and he is out of his element, he is in my house, but he wont admit that and sluffs me off as the imperialist empire gringo
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Im sure Thad will have his say, but im out for a minute and will be happey to anwere any one elses quetions about this and anwere anything Thad will be saying, which Im sure he will be saying something
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He tried to make out candomble as a gay infested religion…
Gay INFESTED religion? Jesus, B.R.! Who’s being homophobic now?
Candomblé and its derivatives are indeed the fastest growing religions among gay men in Brazil. This is a simple fact, B.R.
You seem to think this discredits the religion, not me. I think it’s great. I think it’s giving candomblé a much needed lease on life.
The only thing I have pointed out is that this new influx is what’s keeping the faith goping in most places in Brazil these days, at least financially. If it weren’t for the gays, many terreiros would be closing their doors.
Now riddle me this, B.R.: how is saying this homophobic?
What’s the matter? upset that you have to share your purist roots religion with the gays? 😀 Because that’s the only reason I can think of why you’d be reacting the way you are.
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Dear J,
The main argument revolves around the fact that B.R. seems to feel that there’s a “real” and “roots” Brazilian culture which lives in RESISTANCE to the corporate pop behemoth that wants to pasturize and standardize all music. He feels this way because he can dance samba and has a Bahian wife who’s also a dancer.
I, on the other hand, believe that most of the musical forms and cultures that B.R. finds so “real” and “roots” live in a complex symbiotic relationship with said corporate pop culture. I feel this way because I read cultural historians who’ve looked deeply into how “pop crap” gets transformed into “authentic Brazilian culture” over time (and vice versa, I might add).
I think B.R. pretty much made my point for me when he pointed out Axé music – one of Brazil’s most corporate hyped musical forms – as a good example of the stuff he finds to be “real” and “roots”.
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Here, by the way, is a video of a gay marriage in candomblé. It’s pretty cool, I think…
http://senzalamundi.com/news.php?item.52.12
One very interesting thing that this gay-candomblé link has created is bajubá, a “secret” language used by tranvestites to communicate on the street and which has now become generalized throughout Brazil’s gay communities and their supporters.
Bajubá is based on the Yoruba used in candomblé rituals.
Check this out:
http://jovemgay.com/jovemgay/dicionario.asp?id=o
I have friends who are doing great research on Bajubá. It’s really quite interesting.
So figure this one out: I’m supposedly exagerating gay men’s participation in candomblé for mysterious and unexplained homophobic reasons. Meanwhile, one of Brazil’s fastest growing dialects is a gay slang built around Yoruba and candomblé terms.
B.R. apparently has a problem with gay participation in Candomblé. I don’t know why: it’s a big part what’s keeping the religion alive these days in most of Brazil.
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Isto está ficando tão áfrica… Abafa cleide! 😀
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I would say my views and people can draw whatever conclusions they like.
I would also like to add that I do not know much about Brazilian culture, nor do I profess to know as much as the two respective gentlemen on this topic either.
1. Personally I would not be suprised if there are Zulu retentions in Samba music. It is already known the Zulus did not originate in Southern Africa. Some suggest the possibility of a migration from the Congo around 1500s
2. Personally I think musicologist (ie here read Euro centred) are too narrow in their analysis of African music and its influence on the West. So there is a suggestion that since most of the slaves came from West Africa the music must therefore be ‘indigenous’ to West Africa, forgetting about migration and other surrounding cultural influences.
3. Europeans used to say that all Africans were the same, and I agree that was based on racism. This point is alluded to in one of Fanon’s book. However, there is definitely a ‘cultural unity’ between many nations on the African continent. This is not to say that these cultures are exactly the ‘same’. I am aware that this is an issue in anthropology. However, the African centred view attempts to recognise a ‘unity’, rather than ‘differences’. I guess its a case is the glass half-full or half empty. Again it will depend on perspectives, but I think most African centred scholars would adop teh Diopan approach on this matter.
4. I am not a fan of popular music culture and I believe the ‘quality’ lies underground. This is not to minimise the music of ‘popular culture’. Since music is a human expression and at the same time ‘popular music culture’ has its place and relevance to others. We should often remember that there is neither good or bad music but music taht people can identify and have a social value to.
5. There is also other aspects about the concept of music between the Western and the African point of view. In many traditional African culture there was no word for ‘dance’. Since ‘music’ and ‘dance’ were in fact the same very thing. Hence no need to create a new word to describe the body moving to sound. You do not have this concept generally speaking in the West. Again the music was ‘participatory’ ie communal. Then you have the way musical instruments were conceived and perceived, the importance of music in religion and so on
6. For me there are definitely African retentions in much of the music of the Western world where Blacks reside, and since this topic is about Brazil, also for Samba. If I was seeking the origin of the 6/8 beat of Samba then I would start in Africa. Some would suggest I would do that anyhow since my perspective is to be African centred ha ha ha ha ha
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Sure, samba has a Western African beat. It also has European instruments and harmonizations and inputs from all over the Atlantic world, including the U.S.
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I agree with you here…
However, from an African centred perspective, I would add the following caveat.
It involved a ‘re-interpretation’ of European harmonisations and music tradition into a ‘Black one’.
If this was not the case then Europeans could/would have invented Samba since they were also exposed to all the same cultural variables as the African-Brazilians – but they did not.
Either way, today (as far as I know) Samba is the music of Brazilian people.
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Thank you Thad!!
I just saw your comments for teh first time about what your debate is about here – presumably as I was typing my long dissertation he he he…Grade F I guess he he he
In a way you both have some interesting points of views, but I think youare both coming from two different perspectives- and perhaps irreconcilable position.
However, if you guys should choose to continue, I have learnt a lot.
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It involved a ‘re-interpretation’ of European harmonisations and music tradition into a ‘Black one’.
That cuts boith ways, actually. It became a mixed tradition.
Either way, today (as far as I know) Samba is the music of Brazilian people.
Well, that’s one of the problems. Samba got that status pretty much by decree during the Vargas dictatorship: it came from the top down, not the bottom up. It is an invented national tradition – like Scots and kilts – and not some great Brazilian unanimity which corageously fought its way to popularity agianst all odds. The people who made samba an “official” Brazilian music weren’t the roots but activist scholars of the white elite such as Roquette-Pinto (founder of Radio Nacional), Gilberto Freyre and Sergio Buarque de Holanda. These were the sorts of guys – and their gringo allies like Blaise Cendars – who hyped samba into a “national music form”.
This is also part of my debate with B.R. He seems to think these things happen “naturally” without the intercession of the local elite. The most provably have not in the past and I doubt they will in the future.
My point is that pretty much ANY Brazilian pop tradition – no matter how bad, no matter how borrowed or invented – will sooner or later serve as fodder for this country’s “official identity mill”. B.R. classifies Brazilian rock as crap and not “really Brazilian”. He does this, I feel, because he hangs around with a very self-conscious, middle-class and educated Brazilian musical elite who have all been educated to see YESTERDAY’S pop crap as “real Brazilian culture”, forever and ever, amen.
My hypothesis is that within the next 20 years, we’ll see Brazilian rock go through the “identity mill” and, at that time, young gringos who will be then like B.R. was 24 years ago will be waxing all enthusiastic about how Brazilian rock is a “true Brazilian cultural tradition”.
B.R. seems to believe that culture has an ultimate and absolute quality all its own and that the kind of music that he enjoys is self-evidently “better” than, say, the music of Calypso. While I might subjectively agree with him, objectively he doesn’t have a logical leg to stand on. ALL culture is interpreted through a lens of politics and fashion and, as these change, so do society’s definitions of what is REAL and GOOD.
I’ve given several examples of how this has already happened, time and again, in Brazil. This seems to have offended B.R. who appears to be about as emotionally welded to the idea that Coco is absolutely (and not relatively) REAL and GOOD as I am to the idea that safe sex and not abstinence should be taught in schools.
😀
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Thanks…I understand what you say here about popular culture. Isn’t there a theme in Cultural Studies on Popular culture, sub-cultures, mainstream and so forth??
Can you clarify for me, is it true at one point in time Samba was only played by Blacks and rejected by Brazilians pe se. if this is not so, or even partially correct would you llike to comment, filling in the relevant pieces??
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Well, this is what Vianna talks about. It’s his belief (and he backs this up with some impressive arguments) that samba in Rio was a lower class thing, which meant it was mostly black and brown, but also included influences from lower class whites – say, for example, the Polish prostitutes who were a big part of Rio’s night life scene at the time. People who played for these lower classes played all kinds of stuff – polka, jongo, samba de roda, maxixe, etc. Samba as we know it grew out of this mixed pop bag. It didn’t exist before the late 19th century. And from its beginnings it existed in a complicated relationship with power and wealth.
Vianna claims that even when it was “officially” rejected by upper class Brazilians, many of them secretly enjoyed it, the way wealthy people today in Barra might get a kick out of funque. He claims this because we do indeed have a lot of evidence that the pop musicians who are at the roots of modern samba were making money off of playing private shows for the elite.
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Cheers!!
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j you are a welcome presence .All your African points make sence to me. I never implied that all Africans were alike, I agree with your point that there is a unifying cultural base, with each tribe having their own interpretations. I beleive in this genius of sub sahara African music and its contribution to the world which is enormous.I agree and feel how the dance and the drum are one and has been passed on to any culture that slaves were taken and dominated the popular musics in those countries in the rhythm and dance concepts. The way harmony is a European gift to the world. No where has investegated harmony like European classical music (Im not talking about melody).I love your comment on Zulu migration.
The truth is, I had my concept about how the samba steps were developed, I had traced them as far back in Brazilian culure as I could, with the samba da rodas and steps in Pernambuco I had seen. But when I saw this docu on Zulu music, I cant find it on youtube, my jaw dropped because it was very close to the samba step as we know it today.I told Thad I dont know where it came from but any scholor would have to deal with it.I totaly had to revise my thinking on it.
Thad also has a way to mischaratorise what people say, and sluff them off with on any point about Brazilian culture as some gringo point of veiw which is not valid.
I urge you to look at the clips I brought in from Africa from differant tribes including the Zulu, and the continuity is obvious. The argument is done right there.
I never said Brazilian rock wasnt Brazilian, i said it was rock influenced and that the geniuses that I have been lucky to know, in Rio music, were higher leval players.Please check out if you can the clips I brought in with Paulo Russo, them his group of example Paralamas and tell me your conclusion.
And that , while having little recognition, because intrumental Brazilian music is at the bottom of the barrell of recognition, in time, many years, it will be recognised as a far more important contrubution because of its depth, very much like American jazz. But Thad cant handle these comparisons and launches into the gringo put down, which is weak and does show his arguments arnt very compelling.
He fails to ackowledge that the samba rhythm/dance was actualy developed in Bahia in its basic form before it got to Rio, my wife being a prime example of how to do it and what it was for, stomping on the mud to make bricks to build the houses, which was a parralel to coco which they used it to do the same thing. They were cousins, with similarities and differances. You can see an example of coco with another of the videos i brought in and it very much has similarities to the African videos I brought in. Please check them out if you can and tell me if you dont agree.
I never said, samba didnt evolve in Rio, it did very much like jazz did in New York to its highest form. The passista is a special Rio creations that is unique and unbeleivable. What I am trying to tell Thad is, for sure all the things he is saying about the developement politicly are true , what I am saying, if it never got out of Bahia , it still would have existed and would have been a valid art form and valuable to study.At this point, Thad will revert to his gringo scapegoat logic and try to use that to invalidate what I am saying.
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Thad, I am very aware of the gay presence in candomble, but , for you to say only that and not mention that it is a cell of Black woman who take care of the terreiros and it is a very empowering thing for them , is leaving out very important aspects. And in the place where my wife is from, it is very prevalant and definitly is not a gay dominated thing. Maybe in Rio, but not in Area Branca.And where she is from is the most concentrated place of its origin in Brazil. It is everywhere , though, even the predominantly white south of Brazil.
I also keep telling you, I am very aware of the comercial axe movement, but, I was there before, and my wife again is a person who represents the rich tradition before the comercial movement ballooned it to something else.Its just a fact, I learned this from her.
Its also this mischaractorising and sometimes blatent lies about my position. I never ever said I read the book by Vianna, I said I would like to check it out. I said I saw his documentary that followed the path of the 30’s film crew that filmed much Brazilian culture back then, and , I said I liked it. You took it somewhere else . It really invites a negative feeling , which is too bad.
I also wonder why you didnt mention Tim Maia or Ed Motta and I am not against baile funk and I like pagode.But Im not going to argue about which is better, but, Luizao Maia and his contribution cannont be denied. You cant say an innovator who influenced huge amounts of players is not an important cultural contribution. I agree with j, things with depth can be undergound but extremly important.
If you want me to say that Brazilian rock is Brazilian, Im happy to accomodate you. How could i not recognise it as a Brazilian cultural form, its been the most dominant culrural form in the media since i arrived.
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Thad, I am very aware of the gay presence in candomble, but , for you to say only that and not mention that it is a cell of Black woman who take care of the terreiros and it is a very empowering thing for them , is leaving out very important aspects.
Fine, B.R. A LOT of important aspects of candomblé have been left out of these comments. I stand by the main one I made, which you seem to find homophobic for some unexplained reason: if it weren’t for the gays, even more terreiros would be closing all over Brazil (and plenty are closing even with them). The gays are currently keeping the religion viable.
Maybe in Rio, but not in Area Branca.
How many fieis do you want to bet are in Areia Branca as opposed to Rio, B.R.?
I also keep telling you, I am very aware of the comercial axe movement, but, I was there before, and my wife again is a person who represents the rich tradition before the comercial movement ballooned it to something else.Its just a fact, I learned this from her.
Be that as it may, your point ´was that Axé is somehow a good example of a small, backwoods, roots musical tradition. It is nothing of the kind. It is a huge corporate cashcow and it was syncretic and modern from the get-go. Sure, it had to start somewhere and I imagine it was fairly small at the beginning. But it isn’t and never has been some sort of folk survival tradition, B.R. That’s like calling The Grateful Dead roots bluegrass and then saying your wife used to tour with them back in the Kesey days. Fine. Fun it was, I’m sure. Roots folklore it ain’t and never was.
I never ever said I read the book by Vianna, I said I would like to check it out.
But you’ve repeatedly characterized the book’s relative worth, haven’t you? A book you have not read.
Luizao Maia and his contribution cannont be denied. You cant say an innovator who influenced huge amounts of players is not an important cultural contribution. I agree with j, things with depth can be undergound but extremly important.
Who’s denied his cultural contribution? You’re talking about his musical quality. I’m talking about what things Brazilians listen to and go “Now that represents us!” and why.
If you want me to say that Brazilian rock is Brazilian…
Sigh. I could CARE LESS whether Brazilian rock is “really Brazilian”, B.R. What I am saying is that given the way the Brazilian cultural and national identity machine works, that is how it’s going to be portrayed within 20 years time, independent of your or my feelings about it and independent of your or my views on the music’s quality.
My beef, B.R., is with this silly notion that there are “authentic roots” and “real culture” – as opposed to what, “fake culture”?
I don’t like Calypso, but they are as Brazilian and cultural as Coco Raiz.
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With regard to:
“…my wife being a prime example of how to do it (ie Samba) and what it was for, stomping on the mud to make bricks to build the houses, which was a parralel to coco which they used it to do the same thing??”
Can you slightly expand here on all this and what is Coco by the way??
Thanks!!
On the issue of Candomble. I would say that these types of religions in the diaspora (ie Cuba) reflect African retentions.
In Africa (or I should say parts of it) the role of the Women was pivotal in these religion completely different to those in the West, and this is so for Candomble. I think it is agreed that there are large features of African cultures where women have their own unique space relatively ‘free’ of men
Can I ask any of you gentlemen whether the movement of gays into Candomble is at the expense of Women and/or a loss of something ‘African’ about the religion and/or again just a normative cultural change with no ‘real’ significance,
or is there something else at work here??
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Thanks for asking ,j
Samba da Roda can have differant funtions, but , one of the funtions that my wife told me that they still do now is, if someone is building a small mud house, they call everyone in the community to come over and they start the samba da roda and the dancers will get in the middle and the dance steps will stomp on the wet mud to be able to mix it up to make mud bricks. Since she is out at this moment , I will double check when she gets back to also see if its to harden the earth floor to build over.
Coco is a cousin of the Samba da Roda . The samba da roda is in Bahia, and the coco is in various states around Bahia, especialy Pernambuco and Maceio. I saw a documentary where a practicionor said its not for religion or any other purpose but to get together and have a good time, and one of the funtions is exactly the same as i described above as the samba da roda , to help stomp on the mud to make it usable for making bricks and hardening the floor (get back to you to verify it). They have steps that pound into the floor and if you looked at the video I brought in you can see this clearly.
The samba da roda and coco are very close cousins with slight differances in the accent in the beat. But these differances are notable . Samba of Rio has the samba da roda as its roots as far as the beat and dance step,but samba in Rio started to develope and evolve in a much more powerful and definitive way, with many other influences and transformations.Samba in Rio is the cutting edge definitive samba. Like the bateria da escola da samba. The drum ensembles. The instruments would hardly resemble the pandeiros or atabaques that were used for samba da roda, but the accent of the groove is easily recognisable . For sure if it was coco that arrived in Rio, its accent would be much noticibly differant.
Thank you for your affirmation and referance to another African root of Candomble reguarding the women.That was my only point to Thad, that the women are pivital to the terreiros and they do make their own space. To not mention that would be leaving an important point reguarding black women out.
The similarities to candomble, voodoo and santeira , are bracing.
The gay participation is something more pronounced in Rio and Thad can probaby define why that is. But , I asure you, where my wife comes from, hetero males are very much a part of it as well as gay males.
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Another important factor about coco and samba da roda I want to mention is that, the melodies are very call responce, with heavy use of pentatonic scales or happy type melodies.
The pentatonic scales can sound very blusey at times and the happy melodies like calypso or things like that.
Various songs by coco groups I know can almost sound like blues, work songs, calypso, gosple and other things.
Urban coco’s in Recife have really aggresive beats that break away from their country cousins.
Samba in Rio introduced a huge amount of new influences with the melodies and harmonies, but, they still have forms of it that can implicate the call responce cadences of the samba da roda.
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To your post Thad
What do you mean axe started huge from the get go when axe was a referance to various beats and dances like Ijexa, afroxe , samba de rais?
The bloco afros started way before the comercial boom, I was up there when it was devoloping.
“national identity”? What American would consider jazz his national identity? (please, no gringo imperial referances)
Viannas book? Look , Thad, I think you and me are having a fundimental misunderstanding. Correct me if I am wrong, but isnt Viannas book about what was the develpement of samba in Rio and how as you said, certain people were fundimental in making it a national entity?
Does he go into any detail at all about the beats, how they evolved, how the surdos changed their cadence in Rio so its differant from any other samba interpretation in Brazil?
Beleive me, I will look for this book, I dont have a credit card , can i get it at any bookstore well stockec?
But you have to understand, I am interested in samba from a musical stand point first and its history second. Im interested in where it came from, how did it sound where it came from, how those sounds changed and evolved in Rio,and I mean how they sound, not that its because of Polka affected the horn lines.
That is where Luizao takes on gigantic preportions, he changed the basic way bass players aproach the bass in playng samba. Its not based on geo politic analysis, its based on groove and what he did to it. It is more important to me this information.
If Viannas analysis of these things you say is more important to you, great, but, like with jazz, i want to know the history, but its how it sounds, how the aproaches and grooves changed over time that interests me more than the political ramifications. Both are important and interesting, but , Im coming from the music point of veiw.
I like the group Calypso, they have a nice dance esthetic. Its not my favorite group, but ,Im not turned off by them. I am turned off by rock of any country, I just dont like it
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…and, Brazilian rock is the Brazilian cultural face right now, as i said, when i hit Brazil it was the media cultural face of Brazil and in twenty years it will be…
Im talking about 100 years when they look back, I truly belive they will be giving more attention to other things, and it probably wont be Claudia Leite either or the comercial part of the axe movement
That is what i beleive….
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Thanks!!
And with regard to:
Samba da Roda can have differant funtions, but , one of the funtions that my wife told me that they still do now is, if someone is building a small mud house, they call everyone in the community to come over and they start the samba da roda and the dancers will get in the middle and the dance steps will stomp on the wet mud to be able to mix it up to make mud bricks
Now I understand, it seems like another ‘African retention’.
Just one other question to either of you. When you are speaking of the development of ‘Samba’ does this include Batacuda or is this something complete from your discussion.
Once again please feel free to elaborate??
Cheers!!
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j your answer and some mop of some things i said and Thad
Just to be certain , I looked up the Portuguese wikipidia definition of “batucada” and they say that in principle , it means:
it comes from the word “batuque ” and means reunions of black people to sing and dance. This Purtugues definition in wikipedia sais it refers to batuque da roda, when groups of angolians or congolese would form a circle to sing and dance using atabaques and hand claps.And it sais some researchers say batucada is the part where they beat the drums in the religion candomble.
me now : And I have heard it to just refer to some drummers playing African style grooves.So , again, your notion of samba da roda being African retention is on point, and, if batucada is used in a loose sence to drummers playing African styles, some samba drummers could be included in an example of batucada. And I have heard it refered to that also
second, my wife confirmed samba da roda , when used for making a house, is for making bricks. The people can get together with just voice melodies and some percusion playing, there is no need for melocid instruments.
Thad, you are correct about axe music being the comercial genre “axe movement ” ( the word itself is actualy a condomble word meaning “force”). What I really meant to say is that all the differant beats and dances , like afoxe (doh misspelled it as afroxe) , Ijexa ( a rhythm played in candomble for certain orixais), bloco afros etc ,were all existing without any comercial blow up. I saw the blow up later and the term as you said “axe movement” to describe it.
I have to clarify that, I dont have a bunch of middle class freinds sitting around to discuss these things. My freinds are and were Luizao, who lived in a very modest apartment in the back section of Copacabana where some of the prostitutes lived also, Paulo, whose modest house , I slept at several times with his large family, in Linss de Vasconcelos is not middle class either, and Barroshinho , who struggled all his life.These are not middle class well to dos making up what they think is the reality, they are the real deal purveyors of top quality instrumental music in Brazil.
Again I think we can seperate the visceral nature of being inside the music with the academic record of the history of these musics.
Its like the differance with dealing with understanding the intriciceis of Pursuance of A Love Supreme by John Coltrane and tieing together that it is a 12 bar modal blues informed by modern 20th century harmony in the middle of a new pollyrhythmic innovation on the drums, as oposed to studying that jazz came from New Orleans.
Both are important and have their place, and I am in the middle of grasping the visceral aspects of the wonderful Brazilian rhythms and dances and I am picking up the history as I go. I do intend to look for his bookd,and didnt you ever read the various times when i said I liked his documentary very much?
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Nice one…thanks again!!
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j Here is an interesting youtube from a film in 1962 of samba de roda. Its staged but its a pretty good look from the past .I may have to pick up some of those steps myself.
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J asks:
Can I ask any of you gentlemen whether the movement of gays into Candomble is at the expense of Women and/or a loss of something ‘African’ about the religion and/or again just a normative cultural change with no ‘real’ significance, or is there something else at work here??
The book to read here is Ruth Landes’ “City of Women”, published in the 1940s. It is absolutely excellent on this point and an abligatory reference for anyone studying gender and candomblé.
Landes would have been absolutely unsurprised at the “pinking” of the religion because she reported that this was going on back in the 1940s. Because she did that, she was kicked out of Brazil and her book was blocked for decades in the U.S. by Africanists who wished to see, in Candomblé, a “pure African cultural survival” which they imagined in strictly heterosexual terms.
Landes point was that “male” orixá can possess female faithful in Candomblé and vice-versa and that this was opening space for subversions of gender. She also situated this as a change from some of the older African religious traditions from which candomblé is descended, which had female spirits possessing strictly female bodies.
This offended some American and Brazilian male africanists who believed that Landes was taking the opportunity to call blacks gay. In short, they reacted a bit like B.R. reacted above.
And remember, this was all some 70 years ago. So no, this isn’t a new thing. It is a VERY old debate.
As for a loss of something “African”, there’s to ways of looking at it.
One would say “Yes, this is a perversion of our roots. The Yoruba didn’t allow men to be possessed by female spirits back in the 1500s, so that means this is a diluting of our sacred culture!”
The second point of view says “Cultures are not fossilized objects but living, breathing ways of dealing with the world and that means they change. This change follows the logic of the system as a whole and reflects black realities today, so no, nothing’s being ‘lost’ and, in case you didn’t notice it, we aren’t in Africa anyhow.”
My sympathies lay more with the second group than the first, but not absolutely so. I think that the culture has changed, yes, and that inevitably means thinks have been lost as well as gained. Is that a tragedy? No. That’s the nature of culture. If you want a living culture, you have to accept the fact that it changes.
Secondly, I think the first argument is a bit calculately hypocritical. In the first place, men didn’t receive spirits in Yoruba culture PERIOD. And many of the people who are decrying candomblé’s “cultural contamination” by gays are straight black men who areoccupying positions in the terreiros they’d never have occupied in 1500 in Ilé Ifé.
Finally, there’s the gay counter argument, which goes like this: “When Pomba Gira takes me, I AM, indeed, a woman, so there’s no contradiction at all. In fact, there’s less of a contradiction than occurs when some het, butch ‘Pai de Santo’ gets possessed because as a man, he shouldn’t be housing the orixá at all. When I house them, I am a woman. I am comfortable with that. Where’s the contradiction?”
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“national identity”? What American would consider jazz his national identity? (please, no gringo imperial referances)
Who’s talking about American national identity?
But, having said that, what American would not consider jazz to be A PART of his national identity? Hell, even rednecks like certain forms of it.
Im talking about 100 years when they look back, I truly belive they will be giving more attention to other things, and it probably wont be Claudia Leite either or the comercial part of the axe movement.
Why not? What we’re looking at NOW were the pop musical and “garbage” cultural forms of 1910, not “samba da roda” or “coco” or even really “jongo”.
I like the group Calypso…
Gag me with a berimbau. Or with Joelma’s hair-straightening brush, as the case may be…
http://site.bandacalypso.com.br/#/home
Again I think we can seperate the visceral nature of being inside the music with the academic record of the history of these musics.
Never disagreed ther. What I disagreed to – and what you seem to inferred, several times – is that the visceral nature of being in these bands (or dancing samba) somehow translates into a superior form of understanding of Brazilian cultural musical history.
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Humourous aside regarding gays in candomblé…
Jó Soares Sherlock Holmes in Rio pastiche “A Samba for Sherlock” have Holmes and Watson consulting a famous Pai de Santo who claims to have a message from the beyond for them regarding the identity of the murderer they’re chasing.
They arrive at the terreiro and Holmes is immediately possessed by Pomba Gira, who’s sort of the Afro-Brazilian goddess of over-the-top femininity. Think the Jezebel stereotype, hormonally enhanced and raised to the status of minor divinity.
So the scene in the movie version is a hoot because here’s this typical Watson fellow (chubby, greying, English to a T) prancing about and hooting in dialect while rubbing up on Holmes all the while.
The Pai de Santos looks over at Holmes and says:
“Wait a minute. That’s Pomba Gira. She only comes down into women. Unless… Is your friend there ‘affected’…?”
Holmes blinks and answers “I don’t know what you mean.”
“I mean is he, you know, light on his feet, a nancy boy, a swisher? Does he piss siting down?”
Holmes draws himself up, offended. “Certainly not! He’s an Englishman!”
“Ahn. Pomba Gira must have gotten confused, then”.
(The implication in Portuguese, of course, being that she can’t tell gays and the English apart).
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ha ha
“Finally, there’s the gay counter argument, which goes like this: “When Pomba Gira takes me, I AM, indeed, a woman, so there’s no contradiction at all. In fact, there’s less of a contradiction than occurs when some het, butch ‘Pai de Santo’ gets possessed because as a man, he shouldn’t be housing the orixá at all. When I house them, I am a woman. I am comfortable with that. Where’s the contradiction?” ”
Thad, I never said there were no gays in candomble , or that I was offended by gays in candomble. Your example here is what I would have said. I know about that poscesian and the costume of a man dressed as that orixai.
I remarked and you ackowledged that to leave women out of what candomble is , misleads people, thats all. Thank god for j’s educated input here , also.My wife verified that where she lives , there definitly are lots of hetero men involved. And, when I said there was more candomble in her area, I forgot to say in the Salvador area , where Area Branca is, I think you would agree there is more candomble there than in Rio.
You know, both of us are speculating about the future. I do beleive that things like instrumental Brazilian music, which is really unbeleivibly under represented in the media, will be studied very diligently . You can only find it on channel 15 or a couple of other government stations, and Rio is severly under represented.
Im not sure I can relate to your comparison of what is happening today with Brazilian rock and Claudia Leite, to early samba. The police persecuted samba , rock and Claudia Leite are revered in the media and get unbeleivable support from corporate beer companies and the like. I dont see the comparison at all.
about Calypso ? ha ha, well there arnt my favorite group , but, I like the dance and some of the melodies seem like it is a sound from Belem. The other thing I like is,they didnt get any media support at first. You know the Rio , Sao Paulo hype media machines didnt want to touch them with a ten foot pole. They only got on after they sold several millions of cd’s.
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Thad, again, its not about putting down academia of these cultures, I thought I made that clear. I am trying to say that my deeper focus is the visceral side and that the academic side will be addressed in that process. But that is my focus and preferance, and yours is more academic. That is why I said I was interested in the book but it wasnt priority in learning. Its not as important to me as finding out what Luizaos innovation was and how deep and powerful it is. Learning that was a revalation.Or trying to figure out the evolution of the samba step and other dance steps in Brazilian culture
And that is the thing, there are so many angles about learning these cultures.
I have heard hundreds of songs in Samba, I cant remember the names of 3/4s of them, I recognise the melodies, but , there is either a record collector with hundreds of records that does , or a profesional melodic playing musican that does also, with reems of sheet muscic, both of them with their own agendas. And they would be arguing with you and me that their point of veiw of knowing these songs and catalouging them is more important than the history (to them, that is the history) or for sure more important than what Luizaos innovation is or what the evolution of the beats and dances is , which is my main passion and focus.And Im sure they couldnt define what Luizaos contribution is (except the pro , maybe)
We have to allow for peoples preferances and point of expertese. Im sure you can tell me things about that history as I can tell you deep details about the dances and beats and inner workings of the ryhthm section and how it got to where it got.
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Thanks Thad…
This looks interesting the matter on Landes. iIam about to pop off, but i want to do it justice, so I will not read it now, but whence I return…
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I would like to add there is another factor to culture that you did not mention in your analysis. I am not saying it is so, since I don’t know, but culture can also be co-opted.
This brings us back to the issue of sub-cultures etc in subjects like Cultural Studies.
And finally with regard to the role of men in Candomble in Africa. Personally I do not think it would be an issue of concern for the men. It is a introverted Euro centred conception of the male-female tension in Western history.
Did not Herodotus, if I remember correctly (or was it one of the Arab travellers) who suggested from their perspective
‘African’ women had too much ‘power’??
Even many Western scholars would concede this if you start from Greece coming down through the ages.
From a long time on the African continent, it is generally agreed that African woman had more ‘freedom’ than their Western female counterpart, who up to the early 1900s in UK at least were the property of men, who could be sold on the auction block if need be by their husbands.
I can see why there may be tension over these issues.
Thanks again for enlightening me.
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From a long time on the African continent, it is generally agreed that African woman had more ‘freedom’ than their Western female counterpart, who up to the early 1900s in UK at least were the property of men, who could be sold on the auction block if need be by their husbands.
[snort]
Try telling that to some people on this site. I once did and was accused of saying “but the Irish were slaves too!”
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j
“candomble ” would be the Brazilian manifestation and interpretation of African religions , but, with its own charactoristics.
voodoo is Haitian and santeria is Cuban
here seems a good article about it:
http://altreligion.net/?page_id=269
With multiple wives by the men and clitoral disfiguration a reality for some African women, I wonder if the African woman has it easiar in the world? What is your take on that, j?
And, I need your opinion about this, j. We can see how in candomble , voodoo, and santeria in Cuba, they hid the orixais behind cathiloc saints. There are rituals with drums that at some point , a practicionor will get poscessed and go to the floor .
I went to a black American church cerimony ( I am not religious and it was just a matter of going with my friends once ) and my friends ( in another post i mentioned I was lucky enough to be accepted and have a black American social experiance growing up), sometimes in a party , in kind of a comic moment, would immitate some elders they had seen in church,and would go to the floor in that “Ive got the feeling” type of expresion…
Do you think this phenominon in the black American church ( Im not sure which denomination, could be pentacostal) were doing the same thing as the practicionors of these other Afro retentive religions were doing? Dealing with possecian of the spirit , based on those cultural traces from where their ancestors were brought from?
The USA surpresion of hand drums /dances and the African cultures leaves large holes of ommision from the black Americans past.
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With regard to:
“Try telling that to some people on this site. I once did and was accused of saying “but the Irish were slaves too!” ”
You would be right!!
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Here’s my humble opinion:
1. With regard to the position on the African continent. Sometoimes you look ‘unity’ but at other times there is also ‘dis-unity’. This is something Thad has pointed out correctly in my opinion. Sometimes its a case of timing.
I think by and large African women role on the continent was more ‘expansive’. If you read the role of women especially like in Greece, and even as late as 1900s in England, its just terrible if we being honest. This is not say there was hundred per cent equality in Africa either, but I am trying to highlight a difference
Perhaps its an African centred bias – I am not totally sure but I think the position is that much of what you refer to, when you quote
“With multiple wives by the men and clitoral disfiguration”
This is something usually attributed to Islam and Arabic influences.
Diop et al has suggested that most African societies are
‘matrifocal’ (ie women centred), Arab society would be ‘patrifocal (if that word exist or patrilineal)
2. As for the church you describe, it definitely sounds like a Pentecostal church. Personally I would say this is another example of ‘African retention’.
This idea of being moved by ‘the spirit’ is defintely an African one. though obviously it is encapsulated in biblical terms ie the Holy Ghost.
Something just sprung in my mind this type of feature ie Pentecostalism/African religions ie music, drums handclapping, worshipping is what many of the Arabs ‘despised’ when entering Africa
Even in music, and I am sure you would be aware more than I, than many musicians are moved by ‘the spirit’ when performing or even a creating a song.
Did not Robert Johnson, regarded as many by the ‘Fathers of the Blues’ moved by the spirit of the ‘Devil’??
Even in everyday life here in England, you will hear youngsters far removed from Africa talking about ‘waiting for a vibes’ to do something or conversely the ‘vibes’ is not right to do something.
Finally and I know this may sound strange, but I think you may well just understand it. There is also a ‘spiritual’ retention that I believe goes back than merely the ‘physical action’ of singing African derived songs and so on, and lies well beyond academia and the logical way Western world science frames this world.
Hope this of some help!!
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Here would have been a good read but unfortunately the bit about ‘music and religion’ has been removed, even though it is a small section:
A little about music in the African psyche is alluded to at pg 9.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=i9ezVqxxxqgC&pg=PA25&lpg=PA25&dq=john+mbiti+african+music+religion&source=bl&ots=Yk3vi4HYI9&sig=2WWTyjNnlb07kVwzNsbeMtnVQxw&hl=en&ei=bs2DS–NGcK5jAeW5dCJAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CAkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false
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I had a look at this site
http://altreligion.net/?page_id=269
I observe it says Voduns practitioners will not allow Whites in…I would be very surprised if the Haitians were operating a Nation of Islam philosophy on this.
Sometimes its ‘strange’ how writers place different emphasis on things.
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j
Thanks for your info, like islam is more the catalyst for the disfiguring the clitoris .I asure you I am well aware of the differances in the tribes and countries in Africa so I apreciete your point about the wives.I spoke in general terms about those customs because I didnt know where they came from and I thought you were reffering to the facts about African woman being more in power as a general statement also.
Great point about the transe state that African styles can put you in.That is the fundimemtal principle of many of the popular dance grooves and music styles that dominate the Americas .
The pricipal of the drum ensembles is that each drummer or section holds their own part in a syncopated, call responce , repeated groove, that is then layered by another drummer or section with a polyrhythmic beat against it so that what happens is that , the music takes on a life of its own, not depending on a score to read, or, a linear phrase that the musicians follow , that goes to another linear phrase that you have to follow. The west African groove takes on a life of its own so you dont have to think as much, its about letting go of the mind and trusting the intuition. Other cultures Africa didnt influence can have trance built in, but , the west African aproach has its special unique way that influenced things like mambo, samba, funk, rumba, calypso , jazz , reggae , hip hop etc all world recognised beats with dances made to go with them.
Most of them have influences of Europe (the colonizing country) and Indians ( who dont have a call responce beat , its more one one one one), also, but its amazing how the Arican concept of beat absolutly dominates any where it goes. Some times the European concept with writinn and reading a score and an arrangement can be used.
But, in the case of jazz for example, great black artists like MIles Davis and John Coltrane were simplifying their structures , using modal scales with less chord changes and easy bar form structures in 8 bars or 12 bar blues , to actualy put themselves in a blowing situation they could think less and feel more, while using their incredible knowledge of melody and harmony to improvise over that.. And these simple stuctures allowed the powerful drummers in their groups to push more polyrythms into the music. They were thinking less and getting in touch with intuition to guide their expression more. This is the African concept personified and for me Ill say in one of the most powerful forms of music expresion .. .
I also saw a documentary about black dance in America and they mentioned that the solo dancers objective was to literaly go into a trance to express his movements.
Didnt know you were in England, I asked about the church thinking you were in America
Ill check your sites out
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Yes that is where I located but those same Pentecostal churches are in England too…
I am not a musician but I was just about to follow what you say, and I do agree – not that I am an expert to agreeing he he he.
Just one other thing, have you ever come across this before…Again a challenge to our one-dimensional view on how music develops, but this time the perspective is from Europe
“This established tradition was greatly boosted by the craze for ‘Turkish’ military bands that swept across Europe in the 18th Century…By about 1770 the new style of military band, augmented by some new and very loud percussion instruments, was customary all over Europe. The kettledrum and long trumpet of teh earlier miltary band had been borrowed, as we have seen from the east.
The fashion for what was called ‘Janissary’ music the word
means basically, a Turkish soldier – entailed the addition of five or more ‘Oriental’ instruments.
there were now large cymbals…a large bass drum…there was now a large triangle, much heavier than its modern counterpart…also a large tambourine…most spectacular and by far the noisiest of the innovations was the Turkish crescent or chapeau…the Turks called ‘chaghana’…a word soon anglicized to ‘johanna’ in the Royal Artillery Band.
..The Turkish rage spread both to popular music, with composers writing special parts for the triangle and the tambourine…
…But in fact the musicians who played in these ‘Turkish’ military bans, and wose playing inspired instrumental and rhythmical innovations by composer, were more often
Africans and people of African descent.
Elsewhere, when Turkish musicians died or were discharged they were usually replaced by Black men – so that when Freerick II of Prussia commanded his ‘Turkish’
band to perform before the Turkish Ambassador, the latter complained: That’s not Turkish…’
** Black musicianship had a far earlier influence on European concert music than most historians of music and compilers of musical encyclopedias have been prepared toa dmit. the outstanding exception is H.G. Farmer who writes:
“It should not be forgotten that these negro drummers not only gave a tremendous filip to regimental music…, but it was their contribution in this so-called ‘Turkish music’ that opened the eyes of the great composers, beginning with Mozart & Beethoven, to the possibilities of a new tone, colour and fresh rhythmic devices in the wider realm of orchestral music”
Peter Fryer
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hello everyone… I like the dialogue here. My wife is also Brazilian from Salvador and I am American. I also speak Portuguese – almost with no accent. Often times I am mistaken for Brazilian when I first meet others and speak Portuguese with them.
Rio de Janeiro has Candomble practioners, but in my opinion has many more “Umbanda” followers. I say this because that is where I lived and what I observed as a younger man. (not sure if it is still that way)
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Great colorluv, look forward to your opinion, check out some clips I brought in on “the most beautiful black women”
j nice sites and fantastic info about turkey percusion and the black percusionists in the orchestra.
People have a lot of preconceive notions about things in music and have no idea of the background.
Take the banjo. A long time ago I thought it was a white man’s country and wetern instrument….wrong…its from Africa. And they have some great banjo playing in samba.
There are a lot of white kids playing rock and roll and dont know its black music.
By the way, Thad, no , I dont think the average American would classify jazz as their national cultural identity.I honestly beleive that.Of course, I do…
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I think by and large African women role on the continent was more ‘expansive’. If you read the role of women especially like in Greece, and even as late as 1900s in England, its just terrible if we being honest. This is not say there was hundred per cent equality in Africa either, but I am trying to highlight a difference.
This is the sort of thing that really shows up the “continental model’s” faults. Cultures are rarely homogenous – no, cultures are NEVER homogenous and rarely even similar on a continental scale.
In the case of “Western Europe”, for example, there are at least two major models of femininity: the mediterranean model and the northern model. Women have definitely been under more control in the Mediterranean model. In fatc, this was a huge sticking point between the Celts and Romans at one point. There’s even a dialçogue recorded by a Roman historian where a celt woman and a roman woman are insulting each other regarding their respective sexual and gender behavior.
Certain african cultures, likewise, have been much more repressive of women than others. Clitidectomies (SP?) aren’t an “African” thing. They’ve been practiced in some parts of Africa, but not others and have also been practiced outside of Africa. Multiple wives are also not an “African” thing. That’s acceptable in some cultures and not in others and, again, that’s the case outside of Africa, too.
So trying to use these cultural artefacts and applying “African” or “European” to them and then trying to make a decision as to “better” or “worse”… Well, this generally tells you a lot more about the concerns of the person doing this than the cultures themsleves and how they (don’t) relate.
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By the way, Thad, no , I dont think the average American would classify jazz as their national cultural identity.I honestly beleive that.Of course, I do…
I think most of the Americans I know would classify jazz as PART of their national identity, yes. Note the way that’s phrased.
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Colorluv, Rio probably does have more umbanda practicioners than candomblé practicioners but the problem is where exactly do yoiu draw the line?
The Bahians will say that the only TRUE candomblé is what they practice, but that’s a bit of a tautology because their definition of “true candomblé” is whatever Bahians practice. So their changes to the tradition end up being seen as completely understandable (at least by Bahians) while EVERYONE ELSE’S are classified (again by Bahians) as “diluting the true essence of candomblé”.
Bahians are funny like that.
Here in Rio, Candomblé came down in the 1930s and got overlaid on the older Angolan-based tradition known as “macumba” (a word which has since been turned into a prejorative for any African based religion). It also encountered stronger European spiritualist traditions like Kardecism. The result has been a more syncretic mix, but no less “roots” in its own way for all that.
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Thad –
1. The main difference is that Candomble centers on receiving the spirits of the Orixas and holding more true to the original Yoruban roots and language while Umbanda allows for the receipt of “spirits” -not only “Orixas”. For example, many practioners of Umbanda receive “Preto Velho” (The Old black spirit who was once a man, not an Orixa. I have personally witnessed the position of Preto Velho in a practioner) I believe there is also a difference in Umbanda referring to “Exus/ as spirits” and the actual singular Orixa, Exu. Exu exists in both as an Orixa, but Umbanda also refers to Exus as lesser spirits. You will find that the practioners of each will tell you they are different.
2. A DIFFERENT NOTE/RESPONSE for another topic mentioned frequently in this thread:
I see a lot of people getting hung up on what is Black or White, the difference, “White man accepting a black woman, vice versa, etc…..”
I would like to first cite information I pulled from Wikipedia:
“The vast majority of Brazilians have some African ancestry (86%, according to a genetic study). However, because the intensive mixing with Europeans and Native Indians, Brazilians with African ancestors may or may not show any trace of black physiognomy.”
— In other words, a person may appear white without having any distinguishing features one would associate with being “Black”. Note that I am white and while living in Brazil, people would say to me, “Voce tem um pe na Africa / You have a foot in Africa”, in reference to my coarse curly hair, even though I am entirely of European ancestry.
I also know of families in Brazil that have siblings, first cousins, Aunts/Uncles that are black AND white, and everything in between. You can literally take the family and have both black AND white people in it – AND they are all related by blood!!!
I understand we talk about it differently here because we are such a segregated society, and I think that sucks! I also hate the way people in the U.S. tend to segregate themselves. Almost as it it is self imposed apartheid. (Sorry for the rant…. I must digress and let others participate) I will finish reading some of the other comments I have not yet had a chance to digest.
3. Love the music history. Always have been intrigued. I’ve been trying to find some information about the roots of Celtic/Irish percussion. I recall that I read somewhere about sharing a rhythm with Africa and being the only European country to have had that shared experience????? Not sure but the dialogue here got me thinking about that again.
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— Thad,
Forgot one more thing. (Don’t want you to think I was preaching to you about the differences in Umbanda/Candomble, just “sharing experience and knowledge.”
Also regarding Macumba, based on my own personal experiences in Brazil, Macumba is the use of Umbanda/Candbomble for ‘darker purposes’. So, when people in Brazil refer to Macumba, they are talking about the “darker side” of certain practices. You would not go see a “Mae de Santa”(Saint Mother) if you wanted to do something bad, you would try to find a Macumbeiro….
so, to put it simply, Macumba is some bad medicine! LOL…
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Thanks Thad
With regard to:
“So trying to use these cultural artefacts and applying “African” or “European” to them and then trying to make a decision as to “better” or “worse”… Well, this generally tells you a lot more about the concerns of the person doing this than the cultures themsleves and how they (don’t) relate.
Personally I believe this denial of things ‘African’ and ‘European’ is also the denial of a cultural groups’ humanity. Personally I see this as a Euro-centred concept.
The African centred perspective takes the opposite position
No-one is saying that it is better or worse but those value judgements can only be assigned as a ‘comparator’.
So for instance, Spartan culture compared to itself is merely Spartan. However, when you compare and contrast it to Harrappan (Indian) civilisation. You can say they are ‘different’ and if you want ‘apply a value judgement’.
Hence the use of my word ‘expansive’
The issue of African women came about because we were speaking of Candomble. The reason why the women in Candomble is prominent is because many African societies were ‘matrifocal’, in my opinion. This is all I am trying to say.
And if you study the African women on the African women and compare her to Europe then there are ‘differences’.
Can I ask Thad have you ever studied African culture, and the ideas like Diop, since it appears you keep coming from a Euro-centred perspective??
On of the bigegst problems facing Africans in the Western historiography of its people and the continent??
However, irrespective of that can you offer any light why women are so prominent in the Candomble religion??
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The main difference is that Candomble centers on receiving the spirits of the Orixas and holding more true to the original Yoruban roots and language while Umbanda allows for the receipt of “spirits” -not only “Orixas”. For example, many practioners of Umbanda receive “Preto Velho” (The Old black spirit who was once a man, not an Orixa.
Yes. I’ve heard it argued that this is a result of the Angolan influence on umbanda. Angolans were more animistic and spirit-oriented in their beliefs whereas the Yoruba had a by-God theology. For a (somewhat misleading) similar example in a European context, think of the ancient Germans versus the Ancient Greeks.
So cariocas are much more open to declaring ANYTHING a spirit capable of possessing one. Orixás, in this view of things, are moved over to being the titular heads of spiritual lines.
For years I’ve been agitating for the inclusion of Elvis Presley as the spirit of white trash American culture.
I recall that I read somewhere about sharing a rhythm with Africa and being the only European country to have had that shared experience?????
Sounds like drunken Irish blarney to me. Almost all European folk cultures have had very rich polyrhythmic traditions, if you go back far enough. People forget that Classical Music was NOT the European people’s music.
Also regarding Macumba, based on my own personal experiences in Brazil, Macumba is the use of Umbanda/Candbomble for ‘darker purposes’. So, when people in Brazil refer to Macumba, they are talking about the “darker side” of certain practices. You would not go see a “Mae de Santa”(Saint Mother) if you wanted to do something bad, you would try to find a Macumbeiro….
This is due to linguistic shifting and also due to Candomblé “winning” the battle for the attribution of being THE african brazilian religion back in the 1940s (see those elite academics I was on about – this is another one of their responsabilities).
Up to the early 20th century, macumba was used to describe african brazilian religions in Rio like candomble is used today in Bahia. Because most of the “black” religions in Rio were descended from the beliefs of animistic angolans. macumba was a much looser set of beliefs than candomblé.
When candomb´lé started moving in in the ’30s and ’40s, macumba got shoved aside to the point where the word is now generally pejorative or – as you state – took to mean “bad juju”.
Things weren’t always that way.
As an aside, this is also what happened with “crioulo” and “boçal”. Originally, a crioulo was a black born in Brazil and a boçal was one recently imported from Africa. Today, crioulo generically means black and boçal means “stupid” or “fool”.
Guess who one that particular intra-black struggle.
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^won
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Ha…. I’m laughin “me arse” off! You said, “Drunken Irish Blarney”!!!
Hmmmm, you must hate the Irish! Are you trying to tell me that all Irish are drunks and therefore this is the reason they were considered the lowest class of Europeans until recent history – Forced into slave labor???!!!
All I have to say is: It would be a pleasure to sit down with you over a nice glass of Irish Whiskey and discuss this intellectually. LOL !!! (Or chopp, ou Caipirinha…. Qualquer coisa ta otima comigo!)
Just joking… Seems as though people around here have a lot of hate in the blood! But I do like the subject matter.
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Personally I believe this denial of things ‘African’ and ‘European’ is also the denial of a cultural groups’ humanity.
Both Europe and Africa as cohesive units are conceived that way due to a very particular European understanding of the world: the post rennaissance colonizer-conquistador understanding.
There is nothing natural, eternal, or even cultural-diffusionist in those two attributions, so it’s hard for me to see how questioning them denies peoples’ humanity.
The reason why the women in Candomble is prominent is because many African societies were ‘matrifocal’, in my opinion.
This is a bit of a myth, promulgated – ironically enough – by white feminists in the 20th century. Sure, some African cultures were matrifocal. As were some European and American and Asian cultures. Not all. Not even most, actually.
There’s a certain naive feminist view which has really polluted a lot of our thinking about other cultures. It states that patriarchy is a Western invention which took place some time during the shift from hunter-gatherer cultures to agricultural cultures. There is no proof that this is so and plenty that it’s not. Unfortunately, it has become a common cultural meme in the English-speaking world these days to presume that more “primitive” peoples are more matrifocal, matriarchical, matrilinear or what have. Anthropological fieldwork has tended to demystify this view in almost all cases.
Can I ask Thad have you ever studied African culture, and the ideas like Diop, since it appears you keep coming from a Euro-centred perspective??
I first read Diop back in 1987 and I generally agree with his views on the western bias against seeing blacks in Egypt. I also very much agree that Egypt influenced parts of Africa. In particular, I think the Egyptian-Sudanese-Merowe connection is pretty well documented and I’ll even go as far as to say that it’s plausible that iron-working was brought out of Merowe to Yorubaland by a renegade branch of the Merowe royal family. No proof at all of that yet, but it’s PLAUSIBLE and worth studying and following up on.
Where I get off the afrorific boat is when Diop starts using an essentially discredited European cultural diffusionist theory to carve up the world. Civilization theory has been pretty well debunked as a rule and so has the über-diffusionist beliefs which back it up. Diop does not make civilization theory suddenly plausible or believable in my mind simply because he sees TWO cradles of civilization rather than ONE.
The world’s a hell of a lot more fractal than civilization theory lets on, J. Putting a bad theory in blackface does not suddenly transform it into good theory.
I think Diop’s worth is as a necessary corrective to classical archeological thought. But he is most certainly working and writing within a modernist European way of carving up the world. He himself just happens to stand in a different portion of that world when he takes a long hard look at the resulting turket slices.
I also think that it’s conspiratorial thinking in the extreme to dismiss rational objections to theories because one finds them to be “European” or “Jewish” or “Black” or “feminist” or what have you. What you’re saying when you do that is “I’m not going on the evidence: I’m going on my faith in a particular ideology”.
I’m a scientist. “Where’s the beef?” is my motto. Show me proof that there’s cultural unity and I’m there. But frankly, I have my doubts about this whole “culture” thing to begin with.
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Are you trying to tell me that all Irish are drunks …
Not at all. I’m saying THIS particular theory is the kind of thing you hear when Irish romantics with too much passion and not enough knowledge of history have knocked away 20 or so pints and get to feelin’ maudlin about how they are supposedly “the Blacks of Europe”. 😀
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There is a series of Books referring to the African Presence in Ireland
Maybe this is what ColoofLuv…I don’t think so somehow ha ahah
Hi ya ColorofLuv and welcome!!
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Macumba is reffered to a lot now as the offerings you find on a street corner or on the beach , the plates and food left on blankets.One of the most in depth books I ever saw on candomble was by Bishop Macedo of the Universal church. I think he was learning how to get converts for his church.
They sure celibrate European roots and Octoberfest in the South, a celibration I would stay as far away from as posible. Where I live, you see more reports on tango than samba.
Thad, there is a radicle differance from the way European folk music sounds compared to the sub sahara west African concept, especialy noted by the youtubes I brought in.
The Irish have an extremly lively culture with their percusion and jigs. But , check their dance out, their steps always come on on the one and dont really have the syncopation and shuffle steps mixed with pelvic thrusts the African dancers use from the tribes that influenced the Americas.Compare any jig to the tap time step , which was an African American invention imitating the jig but coming out African. There is a very syncopated off the beat entry on it. The jigs are all one and digity digity digty digity one and etc
Flamenco is another feircly hard driving music and dance, but there are just radicle differances in the aproaches of beat cadence to the sub sahara African concept. Look at any of them, Greek celibrations , any of them, they lead on the one with no counter beat, steps on the one, no shuffle steps on the back syncopated beats.
And you can see direct relationships with these African grooves to certain American hemisphere popular grooves like funk, mambo, jazz , samba calypso , etc etc
Maybe you just dont hear it.
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Gr. This got posted elsewhere by accident.
I’ve read that book, too, J. Years ago I did a review of all of this “African conquers the world” lit and some of it is quite interesting.
The problem with the “hemitic peoples colonize Ireland” thesis is that there were people there long before there was anything like adequate sea-faring tech in Africa. Or the mediterranean, for that matter. Or ANYWHERE.
The “Welsh is really Egyptian” argument is droll and interesting enough after one’s smoked a big fat spliff. Got me imagining things, at any rate. But from the linguistics viewpoint, it’s utter pants.
The author is also simply ignorant of human genetics. He seems to believe that curly hair is a specifically African gene instead of a common human gene.
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Thad, there is a radicle differance from the way European folk music sounds compared to the sub sahara west African concept, especialy noted by the youtubes I brought in.
There’s a radical difference between the way Irish music sounds and, say, Transylvanian folk.
But polyrythyms? They got ’em up the butt.
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I am interested to hear that book reached as far as Brazil or were in US at the time?? Since it was in limited print and very hard to get hold off, even though the authors were in the UK and came in 3 parts…
small world ey…
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I was in the U.S. in an Afro-American history class at the time and decided to do my final reseacrh project on afro-centric views of history. Started wioth “Black Egypt” and worked my way forward and back from there.
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Thad, its in a radicly differant way, if you cant hear it, I can understand , but, beleive me, top leval musicians have discussed this, and I can hear it .Musicologists have written about it . Its common info out there. You cant just think because you say it and spell correctly and use big words that its correct. This isnt opinion , its fact.
Bring in youtubes to show what you mean. Ill be albe to define what the differance is.
Youtubes sure cut through a lot of words for nothing.
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No one is saying they are the same. B.R., but polyrythyms are indeed there.
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Cheers Thad
An interesting research project…it would be interesting to have read it.
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ok Thad
Knowing those differances is important, and I guess you do.
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It ended up being a project where we had to create primers – collections of readings with intro pieces – for high school level kids. So I did up an “African explorers” primer and included everything I could find on possible African xolonies or explorers the world over. The Olmec stuff, the Phoenicians in Brazil stuff, the Irish are really African stuff… Mostly I concentrated on the Egyptian stuff and the Egyptians as teachers to the Greeks hypothesis.
Probably in my mom’s basement somewhere now. That was 23 years or more ago!
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I realize this topic has fluctuated quite a bit on various subject matter involving Brazil, but given the fact that the question I’m going to pose pertains to religious experience, of which mine will utilize Umbanda in Brazil, I will post it here.
I look forward comments from Thad, B.R. and others with personal experiences to any African influenced religion.
I do not practice or necessarily believe in these religions as an absolute – just as I don’t in Christianity. While in Brazil, I knew a practioner of Umbanda who would often call in the spirit of “o Preto Velho” and come under posession. I was chalked this up as some altered state of consciousness. (still do) However, after having many discussions with this practioner and trying to understand his religious philosophy, there was one particular occasion I will never forget. I was in his apartment “discussing the nature of Umbanda, proof, etc.. and he began to share with me the fact that he could see the spirits of two children that roamed his building. As I questioned him about them, I heard two children laughing in the corner of the room and there was noone there! I was freaked out! He then asked me if I saw them ( by the astonished look on my face) and I said no, I just heard them. He only smiled…
Now I realize you may think I was crazy or this was some trick or suggestion, but another person was there and heard the same. (This has always had me thinking about possible “spiritual forces that we do not see or have yet to scientifically understand.)
Now, please don’t think I’m crazy, but I’m curious as to how many others have had experiences such as this related to these types of religions, or any religion for that matter?
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To Ó Dochartaigh –
You do a good job of explaining your reasoning for non-belief in the bible and “Christianity” in general. I was wondering if you do have any belief in God or spirtual forces of some sort? – just curious if you may have any “personal experiences” you would consider to be of a spiritual nature that is “unexplainable”?
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colorofluv
Each person has have their own experiances and come to their own conclusions.
Your experiance is your experianca and who am I to deny it.
I have always seperated the religious parts of Candomble from the cultural , musical parts. My wife pretty much has also, except she grew up among serious practitioners, including her motherm and of course the conflict the mother has with her father who is catholic.My wife has veiwed her mother in trance like states and possesed. Surly that has affected her in some way in her being.
But what I have seriously plugged into is the trance like states that the drumming and dancing are able to put one into.The religion picked up on this, its not the other way around. African musicians have asured me that the drumming and dancing exist seperatly in their culture for other things also, like work, or mating rituals , or preparation for war.Their religion is just another entity in their culture that uses the power of the drums and dance.
Understanding this puts me in a much deeper state to be prepared to receive and play black American style jazz that evolved to using simpler forms to get in touch with feeling the music and letting intuition take over.To think less and feel more, but extraordinary jazz musicians bring huge amounts of intellectual musical knowledge to the table that they process through this intuitive aproach.
Intuition is a key word for me, scientists are showing that intuition and subconcious part of our being are acting faster and independent of our thining minds.
African drumming and dancing is a culture that understands this and expresses this intuition in an extrordinary way.That is part of the genius for me of sub sahara African drumming and dancing and the musics and dances it influenced in the Americas.
As far as super natural experiances, yes , I have had some of my own that leave no doubt that the material plain is just one dimension we are dealing with in our experiances. Music , especialy in the moment improvisation , certainly is a gateway to a deep invisible universe that resides inside a person
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I, too, have experienced most “wierd” trance states such as you describe while dancing or drumming, colorofluv.
Well, that and while I was enjoying an illegal smile (as John Prine would have it)…
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To ColorofLuv
“I was wondering if you do have any belief in God or spirtual forces of some sort?”
Well this sort of thing could take pages to answer, so I’ll try to make it short. Do I believe in a god or gods? If your concept of god is supernatural then no I do not, in fact I do not believe in supernatural things at all. If something manifests in reality, by all definition it has to be natural. So the same goes for “spiritual forces” if they appear in this universe then they have to have an natural explanation, and if humans are unable to find one, then they are unexplained, but that does not mean they are supernatural. You mention hearing children laughing but not seeing them, there are a ton of explanations for this. 1. Our minds are very weak when it comes to deception and what we want to believe, if this man was telling you there were spirit children and you wanted to believe it your brain has the capacity to do so either through audio or video hallucination. 2. The man intentionally tricked you with speakers or what have you, to make you think there were actual children. 3. There were children nearby, in the next room maybe, upstairs or outside and you heard laughter through a vent or duct. Occam’s Razor says the simplest explanation is usually the right one. I had experienced similar situations as a christian, and looking back on it now a realize I made things seem more supernatural then what they really were. I wanted to believe, therefor I convinced my self it couldn’t happen any other way other then a miracle.
I think there is more to life then just your born you live you die though. There are things science is yet to discover. And as far as life after death I can’t even begin to assert I know what happens, to say nothing happens is just as bold as saying you go to heaven or hell, only the dead know the answer to this question. I practice Zen and Taoist philosophy. When asked what happens after you die, the Taoist monks say I return back into the arms of the Tao from which I came, that is all I know.
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I pretty much believe the same as Ó Dochartaigh, with the provisio that we are finite beings and the universe is infinite, so I’m sure that there’s a lot of stuff that goes on out there that we simply can’t pick up.
I also believe that for good, solid, natural reasons, the universe may be far more weirder that we are willing to accept.
Here’s some excellent, fun but heavy reading for people who want to play around with this idea: Neal Stephonson’s Anathem
…and my review of it:
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To Thad
Wow that book looks great I think I’ll have to give it a read.
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Yeah. You gotta be a particular kind of person to enjoy Stephenson’s work, but if you like sci-fi with first rate, nuts’n bolts ideas in it, you can’t beat Anathem.
Without spoiling the book, I’ll say this: Stephenson does to today’s modern physics, with its notions of multiple universes and closed time-like loops what Asimov did to Robots or Heinlein to space travel. He makes way-out-there science accessible to the average intelligent reader and explores some of its ramifications in story form.
Highly recommended sci-fi.
His Baroque Trilogy is a similar treatment of the roots of science, modernity and rational western thought in our world.
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Neal’s work transports me to where I can almost see spirits. Or reasonable facsimiles thereof. 😀
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” I, too, have experienced most “wierd” trance states such as you describe while dancing or drumming, colorofluv.
Well, that and while I was enjoying an illegal smile (as John Prine would have it)…”
hahah That is a funny, Thad.
I know the inner workings of 4 men on a bandstand , improvising in the heat of firey wordless comunication, probably escape you , since you dont do it, but, 4 instrumentalists in the middle of true improvisation are dealing with extremly fine and high esoteric arts.
Like esp, trying to feel to the core of the being of the person you are accompanying to perceive where he is going.Its like exercises in extra censory perception each tune.The idea of wordless comunication from one beings inner universe to another beings inner universe , and anticipating where they are going and trying to hook up with them is a form of communication that academia cant quite describe.
Which is just part of it , since you are riding on energy mathematic principles that come out in grooves of the beats, depending what idiom you are in (classical music from India has a more intellectual aproach to the linear rhythmic flow as oposed to the groove call responce m trance of the Afro diasporic drum/dance concepts) and the concept of the notes , which European harmony ,its unique properties give its contribution , or the pentatonic melodic scales of Africa and other countries to the microtones of the Indian from India concept.
If you ask me, master improvisors are like shamons who can give you visions of deep insights into other universes invisible to the human eye
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Then think of the passista improvising to the drummers. There is a wordless comunication there that is far differant from the”hand up on one, shoulder move on 3 and step forward on 4″ of most cheorographed dance peices.
She is like an improvising horn , with the steps like percussive notes and the body takes on a lyrical like melodic statement that the drummer has to be following the imporvisation and anticipate where she is going and the rise and fall of her energy.
there is somthing very special going on in these improvised trance inducing, call responce pollyrhythmic dance drumming Afro sub sahara originated concepts
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WOW B.R. —
“If you ask me, master improvisors are like shamons who can give you visions of deep insights into other universes invisible to the human eye”
deep stuff from a muscial perspective.
Side note: Do you ever get to do any gigs/events in Miami, FL? That is my current location. Just asking since I know you may travel a lot.
By the way, my wife is good friends with the Band Manager for “Chica Fe”. They’ve performed during Salvador’s Carnaval several times. His brother has also done several duets with Ivete Sangalo.
http://www.bandachicafe.com.br/index.php
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colorofluv
Thanks for the linc, I will check it out.
Miami is heavy in our sights, I would love to hit there. Its a hard city to crack with out an inside connection.WE hope to get there, I think it will be New York or San Francisco in the states this year, but I dont know for sure, still negotiating.
I love the Mango club…ahhhhhh
Yes, I have that much respect for the great jazz musicians and the depth of what they are into.
And, I really do beleive in the genius of the subsahara African drum dance concept and that they plugged into an incredibly powerful force that manifested in being able to allow intuition to totaly take over in their drumming and dancing.
Think about how they allowed it to be used by their religions (as I said , it was used for other things also not just religion), the ones that used juju and came over to the Americas as santeria, voodoo and candomble. They have a theme of posecion of the spirit, and the drums and dance are important to creating a trance feeling that can allow these spirits to take posecian.
Its this trust the intuition that is fascinating to me. They dont base it on intellectual scores and mathamatical complex odd time signitures and various sections to go to. Its about layering pollyrhythms and holding them so the music takes on a life all its own based on every one holding their parts.
The soloist then is able to totaly allow his intuition to take hold.
Scientists are proving that intuition and subconcious are reacting before the thining mind. Here is a culture that understands that and allows it to flow in their music and dance.
It can be as simple as all of us going to a disco to dance the night away, or as deep as John Coltrane playing A Love Supreme or as ferocious as the passistas dancing to an escola da samba.
And the health benifits are enormas, drumming ,dancing, all proved to be great for the body and soul
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oh yeah, Chica Fe is the brother of the guy in banda erva
Here is my son’s web site
http://www.mrejackpotter.com
You can hear his music and there is a youtube linc to all his stuff and some of my Brazilian and jazz stuff
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Lots of variations on you tube for “Chama da Paixao” by Chica Fe.
(thanks for the link, I will check it out at home. No volume on the work computer.)
From a musical perspective, I came across a great arrangement of bagpipes with afro-brazilian percussion. I thought the combination was awesome!
MacUmba – “Damp Carpet”.
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colorofluv….far out…they did pull a Vicki Sue Robinson,though (Turn the Beat Around)
Their five note bass drum stroke is coming on the one
it should be on the “1and two and one and dododododo (with the last do on the one”
and the tamborines are catching the wrong hit
sorry , got to be a stickler about the details or else its stew, and nothing wrong with stew, but, the cats need to go back to the drawing board, I sure had to, many ,many , many times over.
It reminds of that comedien Louis Fernando Guimaraes during the Axe early craze doing a comedy skit about an Italian opera star arriving in Pelo, ready to look for some bloco afros to make a hit with opera…
Great sound , though I agree with you there. But comon, lets root for the real deal to get out there or else you are just not letting people know the real sound of the drum cadence.There is tons and tons of stew out there of Brazilian music. Nothing wrong at all about mixture, but lets get the beat on the right cadence at least (its like hearing James Brown with the backbeat on one)
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Here is a real jazz shamon, Dr Lonnie Smith:
http://www.youtube.com/user/91849?feature=mhw4#p/u/11/BzzG0Muadv0
His left hand is broken and he is still dealing…
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Thad, dont play bs games with me about your use of the word “gringo” to me, and set up some kind of stupid game like Im suposed to pass your test.
B.R., I was sincere about what I wrote. It’s not a stupid game to me or a test.
I don’t use “gringo” as an insult because it is, very simply, not an insult. No one uses it that way in Brazil. You know this, I know this and you also know, damned well, that this is why you’re not going to find one – let alone three – examples of it being used as such.
So let’s concentrate on the real issue, shall we? You and I disagree on certain aspects of Brazilian music and culture.
And yeah, I can see why you think me qualifying some of your positions as being “typically gringo” condescending, but if that’s bad, then why isn’t it bad to qualify positions as “typically white” or “typically academic”, as you yourself have done with me on several occasions?
Hell, there are comments of yours above which flat out state that, as an academic, neither I nor Vianna could ever possibly have the depth of knowledge of music that you do.
Condescension?
Are you so academicly stiff and dense that you cant hear sub sahara African principles playing out in any modern disco from here to Calcutta?
Sure, but I’m not so romantic and intellectually sloppy that I forget that these principles have been tossed all over the place by modern pop. There not the expression of 4000-year old fossilized “cultural DNA” which somehow permeates, uniquely and thoroughly, all sub-saharan African cultures.
Thousands of years of culture playing out right up into the present. That sounds like culture that lasts and lasts and lasts.
Frankly, B.R., it does because you want it to. And I would suggest that you want it to because you are abidingly and romantically linked to the notion that there’s some sort of “deep culture” at loose in the world and that this can be found in Africa.
Personally, I think that said idea has a lot of very unsavory presumptions attached to it, such as belief in some sort of ur-primitive and unchangeable way of being. It’s no surprise that such a notion of culture gets attached by white folks to the notion of Africa, given Africa’s valencing as an unchanging, primitive land occupied by essentially identical “tribes” (as opposed to nations, states, or empires).
I also think that this sort of thing ties into your penchant for thinking that such marginal evidence as full lips and wide noses on Olmec statues “proves” that Africans colonized tha Americas some 5000 years ago. You see very marginal evidence as “proof” of whatever romantic notion you want to believe in.
B.R., yes, there are African musical forms, no doubt, just as there are European or Asian musical forms. But these forms are incredibly diverse, changing, fractaled and – in the last 200 years – in contact with the rest of the world. This is why you hear them from here to Calcutta, not because there’s an ur-African essential musical form which has been preserved, unchanging, at the root of Sub-Saharan music for tha last 5000 years.
This is ridiculas talking about music principles with someone who isnt even an amateur musician, who can only see cultural developement through books, but cant even tell what reverse clave cascara sounds like if he heard it in African drumming.
Here we go again: I’m being condescended to because I am not a musician. And you are using “academic”, above, in the same way that you accuse me of using gringo: to belittle and condescend.
Show me!!! Dont play your stiff argument about youtube, youtube is right here now to show us what music and dance look like and sound like.
B.R., you tell me how to show you that something DOESN’T exist, and I will happily post as many Youtube videos as you like.
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oh boy, here we are in the boon docks, not even Herneith comes over here to crack on us.
“primitive”? God, you insult my intelligence, all Ive been saying is genius and you insult my with this depiction of what I could think
Your gall is astounding….
Did you ever check out that Luizao clip? Luizaos innovation is as plain as day…can you tell me what it is , yet?Can Hermano (I definitly consider Hemano a differant leval than you)? Can you give me one peice of information in his book that I could have taken to the bandstand to play with Luizao? That would have helped me to hook up with his bass part?
Well, buddy, the pygmys are about as deep as it gets at looking at an unspoiled snap shot in time of what drumming and dancing culture in Africa could have looked at more than 7000 years ago.
Take a look at the first you tube…at about 1:05, a stick pattern comes in, dont you recognise it? Its the bell pattern you can find behind certain candomble rhythms. Its plain as day to me. After that , there is some melodic mixed with rhythm that is 3 against 2, very similar to “Bumba meu Boi” up in Belem in its pollyrhythmic execution
The second youtube is some monster 6/8. The foundation for the jazz splang a lang is all in there. Of course things evolve and take on differant charactoristics, but the fundimental essences stay in tact.
The fundimental essences. Do you understand that? Can you hear these essences? I can, I can hear it in disco, mambo, gua gua co, funk, jazz, samba, candomble, bumba meu boi, maracatu, calypso
The last you tube…”primitive”? God your arrogance and insulting is beyond beleif. Listen to the narrator and look at some of those dance steps. Of course they are more complex than the “afro diasporic” grooves that evolved in the Americas.But you surly see that some of the dancing is the parent of many dancing that has evolved down the ages into the Americas. The shuffle steps against the pollyrhythms.
And I never said the Olmec statues were the Olmecs, I said they were made of people the Olmecs saw.
If you are so smart about that, tell me about the bearded figures of white men in old Indian ruins before Colombus ever got there, or the coceine nicoteine mummies in Egypt
You know, you sometimes give the impresion that you would deny any one who has Afro diasporic ancestry their claim to genius
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“primitive”? God, you insult my intelligence, all Ive been saying is genius and you insult my with this depiction of what I could think.
Modern romantics conflate primitive and genius. There’s no contradiction in that for folks like you. Very much the opposite, in fact. Modern romantics have a tendency to see the past in a warm golden light and distrust change. They feel that the future is terrible and that modernity is leading humanity to its doom.
Nor is there any necessary contradiction between complexity and primitivity in the modern romantic mind.
My point, however, is that NO GROUP on the planet can be considered to be living a “roots”, “untouched” (or whatever politically correct synonym you come up with for “primitive”) culture. There ain’t no such animal. You’re upset because I used the word “primitive”. I’m upset because you BELEIVE in the essentials of primitiveness.
Primitive means “of the earliest of times; original; primary”. “Root” has those same basic meanings. A neo-romantic like you sucks that sort of stuff up.
You should do a google on a guy named John Collier, head of the U.S. BIA during the 1930s. You guys would have probably got along great guns.
Its the bell pattern you can find behind certain candomble rhythms.
I hate to break this to you, B.R., but that pattern isn’t exclusive to Africa and you know it.
Culture gets invented and reinvented all the time. A similarity here to something over there does not necessarily mean any link. Just like full lips on an Olmec doesn’t mean that his granddaddy was an African. If you like the DNA motiff, think of this: like DNA, there is not one cultural element that’s SPECIFIC to a given people alone. Zulus, for example, used spear throwers. Some peoples of the Congo used blowguns. Indians in the America both used the same weapons, but that doesn’t mean they learned this from the Africans.
It’s called parallel cultural development, B.R.
Well, buddy, the pygmys are about as deep as it gets at looking at an unspoiled snap shot in time of what drumming and dancing culture in Africa could have looked at more than 7000 years ago.
Actually, sorry, they aren’t. The “Pygmies are the worlds most primitive and unchanged peoples” thesis has been thoroughly debunked. The !Kung have been going through non-stop cultural change along with the rest of us for the last 7000 years. There’s not a single people on the planet who are doing what they ancestors were doing 7000 years ago.
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How about we all just enjoy the music!
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… and dance
he he he he
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Thad
“There’s not a single people on the planet who are doing what they ancestors were doing 7000 years ago.”
What about the Australian Aborigines? Isn’t their culture supposed to be 40,000 years old? I just watched a documentary on them, and it said they are practicing a culture that is well over 7,000 years old.
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“primitive ” is the word you are super imposing on what I said.
Back it out of my face….I never did like your mischaractoisations and attempts at silly manipulations.
In Recife, you can go see a tremendous Maracatu group. Nacao Pernambucu . Maracatu is 300 years old (and of course, with African roots). This group plays the cadences from maracatu and they dress in the court costumes of colonial times. It is a living snapshot. Of course they live now , in modern ti mes, but, part of their cultural expresion is to express Maracatu….and they even use electric bass and a horn section…something that wasnt in original maracatu…but, they have retained the essences and it has the living snap shot effect I have mentioned that you can see in these youtubes.
“The term pygmy denotes the ancient dwellers of the forest. The first records of pygmies were made by the Egyptians over 4000 years ago. They described short stature people living near the ÒMountains of the MoonÓ extolling their abilities as dancers and story tellers. Homer and Aristotle also made mention of them. Significantly both the pygmies and the Òrecent inhabitantsÓ of the last 600 years (the Bantu) believe the pygmies to be the ancient dwellers of the forest. ”
Are you going to deny the Egytions didnt see pygmies 4000 years ago and that they didnt note they sang and danced well ?
I never said the pygmies were the only group of Africans evolving their culter 7000 years ago. I said these youtubes are like living snapshots of what that culture could look like as much as 7000 and more years ago. I stand by that, your academic assesement is weak.
Wake up and listen!!
Like there are times when Coco Raiz evoke what music made by slaves in Brazil from the last centuries, before Baio or forro.
And its just one more differant group in Africa , who demonstrate the principles I have been talking about relating to the genius of sub sahara African drumming and dancing.
You show me who uses that bell pattern !!! The native indians dont have anything like it , or the English, Poruguese, Spanish, etc But, afro Cuban does, candomble, Haitian voodoo
Show me man, because Im tired of your flapping cyber lips with no meat on the bones. You are just talking. And even if you could find another example, that isnt Afro diasporic, its obvious the Africans worked with it first ..
And even more obvious that when its done in candomble, voo doo,santera etc , in the Americas, its from its sub sahara African origins that is thousands of years old.
You are just wrong , you need to do an over haul on your theories just to fit your peg board on what you want the world to be..
I hear people like Zakir Housein saying Indian music is thousands of years old, many master master percusionists and drummers saying the beats they got come from mother Africa, and then listen to an academic like you who wouldnt recognise cascara and clave and how it sounds in Africa if it was on your nose, and I laugh
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The God Bes
http://wysinger.homestead.com/bes.html
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“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKZFnAmqET0
two differant tribes from Africa playing a very similar beat
the second very close to a Gua gua co
I just shattered your whole African argument, you look like a fool ,i could do this all day
on Thu 18 Feb 2010 at 17:38:08 B. R.
zulu drumming, the first part not far from the beats above, the second part in 6/8 ”
i brought this in before, I guess I have to do it again
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didnt come up up there
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What about the Australian Aborigines? Isn’t their culture supposed to be 40,000 years old? I just watched a documentary on them, and it said they are practicing a culture that is well over 7,000 years old.
Well, first of all, there’s no one Aborgine culture, but several. Secondly, one or two cultural elements may survive, but again, a CULTURE – properly speaking – is a cohesive set of such elements and that set is definitely different from what it was 7,000 years ago.
Finally, western culture needs the “primitive” like a junky needs his fix. I’m thus not surprised that the BBC makes statements like that, but I very much doubt they’re true.
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“primitive ” is the word you are super imposing on what I said.
Yes, that’s my take on it, B.R. You tink the word is “evil”, so you’d never use it. You’ll use “roots” instead. But the basic outlook of primitivism is all there in your thoughts, man.
This group plays the cadences from maracatu and they dress in the court costumes of colonial times. It is a living snapshot.
There is no such animal, sorry. Maracatu has indeed changed over the last 300 years: it is not a fossil culture.
Re: pygmies, whoever said that they didn’t exist as a biotype 4000 years ago? You’ll notice that their CULTURE is not the same thing as their physcial bodies, B.R. 4000 years ago, there were people who looked a lotr like today’s Greeks living in what’s now Greece. Many of today’s Greeks may even be descendents of them. Hell, they still maintain the Parthenon, don’t they?
But you’d be wrong to believe that today’s Greeks have the same culture as those 4000 years ago. They don’t even speak the same language, B.R.
“Culture” is not an ineffable “peopleness”: it’s a cohesive and wholistic set of practices and tradtions.
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Thanks , J
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It’s always a marvel to me that when some white americans like yourself seek meaning in another culture, you always go for the primitive – for what you consider to be primal, unchanging, roots and untouched.
Why is this such an important deal to you guys? You can’t just appreciate things because they are good, they have to be an expression of some sacred milenial tradition in order for them to be good?
Sheesh!
Sorry for telling you that your candybar ain’t macrobiotic, B.R. Just go ahead and eat the damned thing and enjoy it. That’s what it’s there for.
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What in blazing hades makes you think you know what maracatu is? Have you ever been to Recife and seen it up close?
I just dont agree with you. You sure havent convinvced me
You are absolutly no authority on music and dance could evolve in sub sahara Africa.
You may know anthrological facts, but, you dont know music and are superimposing anthropology over music and dance.
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How about taking your pshyco analasys and sitting on it
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Im a drummer, that is why its important
You are not even an amateur musician
I dont respect your analasys
I think you should stuff it
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What in gods name do you know about drumming and dancing?
And I have to listen to this kind of crud?
You are constepated
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god …you are absolutly galling
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Here’s a set of odd statements from that link of J:
The oldest known fossil remains, according to Dr. Louis Leakey, were found in the Olduvai Gorge region in Kenya, Uganda and Tanzania. These first “small stature” people were known as the “Twa”, who worshipped the God Bes, a primitive human form of Horus I, being the earliest form of Ptah the God of Gods. The Twa, are modern humans or Homo sapiens sapiens. They are a diminutive Africoid people residing in the rain forests of Central Africa. Related groups live in South and Southeast Asia.
So this nutter thinks Leakey’s fossils were the same people as the “Twa”? The Olduvai fossils found by Leakey is 600,000 years old (not 5,000) and is probably not even in the human lineage.
Hell, if I were to make this claim that Olduvai man were the Twa, every hyperactive twit on this board would be jumping down my throat, saying “That’s exactly a white racist for you! He can’t even see black people as human beings!!!”
But let a pan-africanist do the exact same thing and all of a sudden we suddenly have “history”. 😀 😀 😀 😀
Folks, I know it’s tempting to think that the Twa, Olduvai man and todays pygmies are all the same people because they are short and lived in the same region, but that’s simply romanticism at work again. Biology isn’t culture, in any case. Sorry.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OH_5
Link to a description of Leakey’s fossils.
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yeah, what is it with white boy stiff academics like you, just talking out of where the sun dont shine about things you know nothing about…
hey, I got a candy bar for you to eat , all right
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What in blazing hades makes you think you know what maracatu is? Have you ever been to Recife and seen it up close?
Yep.
What’s more, I have colleagues who’ve done theses on it’s evolution over time. Sorry, B.R.: it ain’t fossilized culture. It’s changed from what it was. That is, in fact, the DEFINITION of living culture.
I just dont agree with you. You sure havent convinvced me
Friend, you think Africa colonized Central America 5,000 years ago and apparently now think it’s cool that someone says that a 600,000 year old species that wasn’t even human is, in fact Egypt’s Twa and today’s pygmies. Worse, you seem to believe that there was no substantial cultural change over those 5,000 (or is it 600,000?) years among those people.
Shit, you’re the kind of guy who goes and sees 2012, listend to news about the current rash of earthquakes and begins to get upset about the future of your children.
I know damned well, B.R., that I’m not going to convince you of anything unless it is spectacular, colorful and/or has rilly bitchin’ special effects. You ENJOY magic thinking. Why should you give up fantasies when they obviously work for you?
What in gods name do you know about drumming and dancing?
And I have to listen to this kind of crud?
You are constepated
Pretty harsh words for a guy who began the day whining about my use of the word “gringo” and how it was so condescending.
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this aint about Twa and Olduvai man between you and me bud
tell me where the cascara and clave in the last youtube is and we can talk
until then, you are a lot of hot air to me
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No problem BR
I forgot to mention – and the link does not mention it either unfortunately, viz. that Bes is a ‘dwarf’ (God), in just the same way as the people who worshipped him
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B.R., I don’t claim to know shit about music. I DO know what musical anthropologists tell me about it. Everyone has their field.
And no, the musical forms of Brazil are not unchanged from Africa, let alone Africa 5000 years ago. That’s simply wishful, romantic thinking on your part.
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Im off to bed, if Thad has another brain fart, Ill answer him in the morning
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I forgot to mention – and the link does not mention it either unfortunately, viz. that Bes is a ‘dwarf’ (God), in just the same way as the people who worshipped him.
You know, the Scandanavians talked a lot about mountain-dwelling dwarfs, too. So does that make Scandanavian culture another off-shoot of this 5,000 year old ur-African culture you guys are on about? 😀
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It simply means that the Twa types were first to populate the earth…
And if you go across the world you will see reference to small, diminuitve people’.
As I have shown already as was the case in Taiwan. in the post entitled ‘Negritos’.
As an anthropogist you should be aware of this – or maybe not in your case
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Y’know, J, using your own methodology and that “Bes” link you posted, I’d be justified in saying that you don’t think black people are human.
I WON’T do this because I don’t need to slander people with cheap rhetorical tricks because I disagree with their opinions.
G’night.
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It simply means that the Twa types were first to populate the earth…
No, it doesn’t. The Olduvai people weren’t even homo sapiens sapiens. No Olduvai is in your family tree nor mine, J, no matter how far back we go. They were another hominid entirely.
If you go around the world, you’ll also see references to big primitive hairy men who live in the woods.
Your point being…?
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The point being that science has revealed that the first human beings were the small black types, and that they populated vast areas of teh world, even before teh White race had existed.
I hope this has clarified for you
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J, let me say this very simply and carefully: OH5, which the Leakeys found in the Olduvai Gorge, is not an ancestor of modern human beings. It is another hominid entirely. It is not part of our family tree: our ancestors diverged from theirs long ago.
The olduvai men thus CANNOT be the ancestors of the Twa – or any other human beings for that matter.
Now, what human beings looked like when they first came out of Africa is a very good question, but we have no clear answer for it as of it. One thing’s for sure: they certainly weren’t Olduvai man.
So that link you posted there is basically saying that the Twa – and by extension these mythical little black people you believe in – weren’t human.
That’s a very interesting position for someone like yourself, who claims to be an anti-racist.
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This is what your problem. You cannot reason properly, and or understand both sides of an argument.
It is for this reason and this reason alone you cannot understand what I say, or many people here.
I find this very disconcerting considering your position in academia.
The argument which you are attempting to convolute should read thus:
The first hominoids and homo sapiens sapiens were probably ‘diminutive’ (ie Twas – as a collective term), and the ‘larger’ types followed subsequently.
This is what the empirical evidence points to today.
What I find interesting with you is that when a Black historical fact is brought forward it usually seems to irks you, and how quick you are to run to quote ‘eurocentric scholars’ verbatim.
It is this aspect within you which I find very interesting and as I said it reveals ‘how deep the rabbit hole goes’ with you.
Hmmm!!!
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B.R.
My only gripe is your making a big deal about particular rhythms, and time signatures, and saying you don’t hear it anywhere else in the world, but you can hear variations of African beats everywhere, especially in the Flamenco. So does that mean you have to lump in Mediterranean music with African music?
Bluegrass music originally came from the Scotch Irish music, it has the same uptempo 4/4 reels and 6/8 jigs, and they essentially play the same instruments. Should we call Bluegrass music Scotch Irish? I don’t think so. They are close cousins, they sound quite similar, but they are not the same.
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This is what your problem. You cannot reason properly, and or understand both sides of an argument.
I understand you alright, J. You think the fossils found in the Olduvai Gorge prove that the first human beings to colonize the world were short.
Correct?
This is what you’ve said twice, above. Did I get it?
The problem isn’t that I didn’t understand, J: the problem is that you are wrong. Those Olduvai fossils aren’t human.
End of story.
What I find interesting with you is that when a Black historical fact is brought forward it usually seems to irks you, and how quick you are to run to quote ‘eurocentric scholars’ verbatim.
No, I run to scholars who are scientific and who present their work for peer review. Show me something like that, anywhere, which claims that Olduvai man is the ancestor of the Twa and I’ll give it a read.
Things aren’t simply because you would like them to be, J. And just because you see yourself as “African” doesn’t mean that every idea that takes your fancy is “afro-centric” or correct.
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Exactly, OD!
And to say that they aren’t the same is no put down of either.
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With regard to:
1. I understand you alright, J. You think the fossils found in the Olduvai Gorge prove that the first human beings to colonize the world were short.
This is your reasoning
2. With regard to the ‘Olduvai man is the ancestor of the Twa and I’ll give it a read.
Since this reasoning is in your own head. I am sure you will be able to find and read the book – in your own mind.
Again yet another example of the poor reasoning skills.
I shake my head…
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The first hominoids and homo sapiens sapiens were probably ‘diminutive’…
Perhaps. We don’t yet know. Jury is still out on that one.
This is what the empirical evidence points to today.
What empirical evidence is this? You haven’t shown any yet. The Bes link certainly doesn’t have anything to say about it. There may indeed be evidence for this hypothesis, but OH5 isn’t it.
By the way, J, I hold your “scientific” affirmations to the same standard that I hold Steve Sailor and Jeremy Rushtons: things aren’t simply because you say they are. There needs to be proof, that proof needs to be adequately collected and that proof needs to be more convincing than other evidence for a theory to be accepted.
Sailor’s theory that blacks have a genetically lower capacity for intelligence fails on all three of those points and I’ve called him to task on it several times. Your theory that OH5 is, in fact, the Twa also has similar problems.
My problem is convenient political fantasy masquerading as scientific fact. I dislike that whether it’s white supremacist, as in the case of Sailor, afro-centric, as in the case of those folks who think the Olmes were Nigerian, or simply looney-toon, as is the case of those folks who think a 600,000 hominid is the same thing as today’s pygmies.
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You DON’T think the Leakey’s fossil “simply means that the Twa types were first to populate the earth…”? Did I not understand you correctly there, then?
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I don’t know what the fossils prove or disprove.
What I do know from the empirical evidence of skeleton remains that the first hominoids appear to be ‘diminutive’ and its also the case for ‘homo sapiens sapiens’, and the ‘larger types’ followed subsequently.
These diminuitive types can bereferred to collectively as Twas – because of the height
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With regard to:
“My problem is convenient political fantasy masquerading as scientific fact”
Is this not also one of the classic ‘eurocentric scholar’ party piece when critiquing an African centred perspective – a bit like The ‘Great White Man’ does also??
Here you have proved my very point – about reaching and quoting eurocentric scholars verbatim
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What I do know from the empirical evidence of skeleton remains that the first hominoids appear to be ‘diminutive’ and its also the case for ‘homo sapiens sapiens’, and the ‘larger types’ followed subsequently.
These diminuitive types can bereferred to collectively as Twas – because of the height.
How about showing us some of that “empirical evidence”?
Is this not also one of the classic ‘eurocentric scholar’ party piece when critiquing an African centred perspective – a bit like The ‘Great White Man’ does also??
You think distinguishing between fantasy and scientific fact is eurocentric, J?
A question, then: you believe that to challenge scientifcally Phillip Rushton’s fantastic proclamation that blacks are intellectually inferior is also eurocentric?
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With regard to:
“How about showing us some of that “empirical evidence”?
If you do NOT know the argument, how about you go and do your own research.
Here we go again, yet another example of not being able to understand,
“You think distinguishing between fantasy and scientific fact is eurocentric, J?”
Again I did not say this, nor does it even come close to the point I was bringing forward – but this is how you viewed it, viz teh ability to hear (in this instance read) and comprehend what is in your mind.
So in essence most of the time you are in fact having a dialogue with yourself and not another person
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Just looking through what I can wiki up and going to the primary sources cited, it seems that Asian pygmies are very genetically distant fromAfrican pygmies.
Furthermore, it seems that even western african pygmies are genetically distant from the eastern – or Twa – peoples that you’re on about.
Here’s what Wiki has to say about it:
commonly held belief is that African Pygmies are the direct descendants of the Late Stone Age hunter-gatherer peoples of the central African rainforest, who were partially absorbed or displaced by later immigration of agricultural peoples, and adopted their Central Sudanic, Adamawa-Ubangian, and Bantu languages. This view has no archaeological support, and ambiguous support from genetics and linguistics.
…following that with a list of a couple of good sources.
Now wiki is not the greatest source in the world. So if you have a peer-reviewed scientific source which gives some evidence that the Twa, negritos, bushman and what have you are all the same original people who once came out of Africa, I’d love to see it.
AFAICS, the best candidates for that would be the western Mbenga pygmies.
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Yeah, whatever J.
You’ve been calling me a racist and closet white supremacist for days now. It comes as no surprise to me, by this point, that anything In say will be turned back on itself as proof of your position.
Whatever turns your crank, man.
I have to admit that you are definitely one of the best masters of rhetoric that I’ve come across in a long while. If you actually have real world charisma to go with that mastery of rhetoric, you’d be a fairly dangerous political opponent.
But people who do politics for real, don’t spend hours constructing circular logic to ensnare internet opponents.
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Thad, with ‘genetics’ things, you should know better.
I have often quoted Diop on this blog that it is possible to that a White Swede can be closer to a Black African on the genetic level, than another African on the continent.
Ah, but this is mDNA that they’re looking at, J. While it doesn’t tell you what your genetic make up is, it does indeed tell you where your ancestors come from.
The pygmies in Asia – your negritos – split off from other Asian groups. They didn’t come over from Africa directly. mDNA can tell us that.
Again I reiterate the first human beings appear to be ‘diminuitive’ the larger types of humans (ie non-pygmoid) seems to appear later, from the
empirical evidence we have thus far.
OK, I’m hip to the hypothesis. Doesn’t seem unreasonable to me.
Where’s the empirical evidence, though?
You are the one who are trying to make them into the ‘same original people’ with the aim to hopefully ‘shoot’ down my non-scientific, Pan-African theories to academia.
Nope.
This thread got started above because B.R. apparently believes that today’s pygmies are the same people – culturally and physically – as the group reported by the Egyptians 5,000 years ago. You got drawn in because you posted that link to the site which made the ridiculous claim that the Twa were the same peole as the fossils found by the Leakeys in Olduvai.
Take it as presumption on my part, but when I see people post links like that in an argument, I presume that they mean that they fundamentally agree with said arguments.
This is why, of course, I asked above is that what you meant?
We agree that humans came out of Africa, I presume. I’m willing to believe that the first people out of there were short and black. Why not? Black’s likely for environmental reasons, short is less likely but I see no reason as to why it’s an impossibility.
What I do NOT believe is that pygmies, wherever we find them, are the direct, unchanged descendents of these people. And I certainly don’t believe, as B.R. apparently does, that the culture of today’s pygmies is essentially the same as that of the groups which left Africa at the dawn of human transcontinental migration.
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And now I am truly out of here, perhaps for a few days or weeks in fact. Lot’s of stuff coming up on my plate and while this is fun and interesting, as always, it sucks up time like nobody’s business.
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“Initially and for the purposes of clarification, we should state that when speaking of ‘Diminutive Blacks’ we are referring to the importanty but much romanticized subgroup of Black people (or Africoids) that are phenotypically characterised by (a) unusually short stature (b) skin complexion that range from yellowish to dark brown (c) tightly curled hair and (d) in frequent cases, steatopygia (excess fat in the buttock region).
The Diminutive Blacks may be more familiar or better known to us by such terms -some pejorative – as: Pygmies, Negritos, Negrillos, Grimaldis, Aeta, Sekai, Orang Asli, Semang, Twa, Black dwarfs, Khoi Khoi, Hottentots, San, Bushmen, !Kung, and Little Black Men.
From their initial places of origin in Africa, these Blacks have scattered around the earth…
The Diminutive Blacks are of particular importance to us because they are morphologically related to the world’s first Homo sapiens sapiens and are typically found to be at the population bases of the inhabited zones of teh world…
Traces of the presence of Diminuitive Blacks have been identified in the most remote periods of prehistoric Eastern Asia.
Regions:
Andaman Island=Negritos
Central Africa= Negrillos, Negritos, Pygmies, Pygmies Twa
China=Black dwarfs
Ice Age Europe=Grimaldis
Malysia= Orang Asli, Sekai, Seman
Phillipines=Aeta
Southern Africa= Bushmen, Hottentots, Khoi Khoi, !Kung, San
Taiwan=Little Black Man
Source: Runoko Rashidi
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“And I certainly don’t believe, as B.R. apparently does, that the culture of today’s pygmies is essentially the same as that of the groups which left Africa at the dawn of human transcontinental migration.”
Hades no I dont beleive that, you idiot. Stop putting words in my mouth.It has nothing to do with the group that left Africa
Thad has become academic flatulance at this point. I have brought in youtubes, lincs and proof of what Im saying, all he does is flap his cyber lips, cant identify musical grooves , so he doesnt even hear what Im talking about.
O
Bluegrass , as most American popular music has been affected by black American culture.
If you are going to make some statements , give me some youtubes so I can analyse it. That is what I have done.
I never said you are suposed to call jazz African music, I said you have to recognise origins of things like the beat and dances. Of course they have been recycled, but, the origins are clear as day with anyone with some ears . It seems like flatulent academics like Thad want to deny the cultural contributions by certain people.
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Thad “What’s more, I have colleagues who’ve done theses on it’s evolution over time. Sorry, B.R.: it ain’t fossilized culture. It’s changed from what it was. That is, in fact, the DEFINITION of living culture.
Friend, you think Africa colonized Central America 5,000 years ago and apparently now think it’s cool that someone says that a 600,000 year old species that wasn’t even human is, in fact Egypt’s Twa and today’s pygmies. Worse, you seem to believe that there was no substantial cultural change over those 5,000 (or is it 600,000?) years among those people.”
oh well, please tell me about the beat, can you play it at all? I just told you that Nacao Pernambuco uses electric bass and horns but they retain basic essences.Im suposed to trust your acacemic freinds who cant play it either?You or your academic freinds cant even identify what the innovation of Luizao Maia is, how can I trust what your take on maracatu is?
Who in gods name said Africans colonised Central America ? I said the statues mean they saw Africans
and I didnt say anything about 600,000 year old species
Where do you get off making up lies like this ?
You totaly afrim that academics like you dont have any credibility about things that isnt your specialty.You run off at the mouth spouting hot air and dont even look at the facts.
Where are your youtubes? This is music and dance we are talking about ,not literature.
You cant idetify cascara /clave in African music
You cant identify Luizaos innovation
You wont ackowledge I brought in various youtubes that show with out a doubt that there is a similarity in some sub saharan African music even if there are unique charactoristics with each variety of people in their culture and dance
You actualy try to imply a bell part that is in candomble could have been parallel developed when it is painfully obvious that it is from Africa
You spout bs that is largly negated by master drummers and percusionists around the world , but, it means nothing for your thick skull
You keep your little academic world, Im in the real world of music, its my profesion, you sound like someone quite ignorant of the realities of its origins and evolutions
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B.R.
Unlike most American music, Bluegrass has been effected probably the least by African music, other than the Banjo, and some Jazz type arrangements. There was an African influence, just not as much as say Rock and Roll or even country. Here is a great article on the history of Bluegrass.
http://www.nativeground.com/originsofbluegrass.asp
Also here are some comparisons:
Irish reel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtxdaAui4tw&feature=related
Bluegrass Reel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaLE1tWNF0c
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B.R.
I responded to you but my comment is in moderation for some reason.
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B.R.
Also call and response came from the African slaves, Bluegrass singers in a group use call and response quite often.
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For sure, O , I can see a similarity in the two and they definitly are examples of not being influenced by African American influence.
the effect of oompha oompha is for sure a very unsyncopated aproach and more european (polkas would have this oompha oompha effect, there are just a little more jig in this music than a polka)
and I dont think this style shows all blue grass styles and the article itself mentioned the banjo and its large roll.
I think if you brought up other blue grass examples , you would see more varieties of aproach to the rhythm , which would seperate it from its Irish parents, for that reason it being able to be labled “blue grass”, an American music.
The harmonic concepts are very similar.
The European influence on American music is enormous , just like the African influence. Outside of blues (which is an enormous African American influence on American music) most of the harmonies would have origins in European harmonic principles.
What you see in American musics is huge varieties of styles and influences that produce musics that can , on the one hand, be more European oriented , with more arrangements written out in European invented staff music. Even if you are playing jazz, if you have some written music on sheet paper, you are using something that came from Europe.There is lots of Spanish influence in the USA , in its histroy and now , especialy.
On the other hand, you have musics that are more Afro centric, like James Brown funk, Louis Armstrong ,hip hop, with lots of mixtures in between.
And then you have the enormous popularity of dance crazes that since the Cake Walk, have been international dance crazes and drove popular beats and songs. These dances and beats are mostly black American innovated . The Charleston, Tap, the Lindy Hop, Rock and Roll, the Funk and Rhythm and Blues , Disco (by way of Soul Train)Break etc, all have enormous international repercusions and are some of the dominant forces in American music. And , this druming/ dancing definitly has sub sahara African origins.
This music you brought in for sure retains more European (meaning Scotch Irish) roots , has a kind of stiff syncopation that would surly point to that as well as the harmony, I just think there are other blue grass styles that would bring in into a more American definition of what blue grass is, and seperate it from its Euro cousins.
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B.R.
I thought syncopation was when stress is applied to a normally unstressed or rested beat. That oompha oompha sound is the Mandolin chopping on the offbeat while a guitar or bass plays the the downbeat. I’m not a drummer but isn’t that what syncopation is?
Here are more videos tell me what influences you hear.
Here is a beautiful waltz: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXKGMcNZsuA&feature=related
“I just think there are other blue grass styles that would bring in into a more American definition of what blue grass is, and seperate it from its Euro cousins.”
So far the examples I have shown you are pretty much the definition of what Bluegrass is.
Hey I love Bossa Nova any good musicians I should look into?
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B.R.
I responded but my comment is in moderation again, I think it has to do with the youtube links.
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Got to stop cursing me out on the blog, O
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Naw man, you seem like a nice guy I couldn’t do that. I asked this in my comment that is in moderation, I really like Bossa Nova what are some good Bossa Nova Artists/groups? I am clueless most of it is in Portuguese so I am having trouble finding some good ones. I like Céu, she probably isn’t considered Bossa Nova, but I like her none the less. I also like Antonio Carlos Jobim, any suggestions?
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B.R.
Here is my response without links.
I thought syncopation was when stress is applied to a normally unstressed or rested beat. That oompha oompha sound is the Mandolin chopping on the offbeat while a guitar or bass plays the the downbeat. I’m not a drummer but isn’t that what syncopation is?
“I just think there are other blue grass styles that would bring in into a more American definition of what blue grass is, and seperate it from its Euro cousins.”
I had three more examples but Abagond won’t take them out of moderation, but so far the examples I have shown you are pretty much the definition of what Bluegrass is. That oompha oompha beat is pretty much standard in Bluegrass. Unless it is a waltz or slip jig.
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Jobim is a monster composer. Look for songs by him , done by anyone , like ,Fotografia , Wave, Jinji , Triste, Chega de Saudade , Desafinado , Corcovado ,Tristeza Nao Tem Fim , there are so many more
Joao Gilberto
Rosa Passos
Ellis Regina (doing Jobim)
Leila Pinheiro
not quite bossa but in the realm would be someone like
Djavon
Clara Nunes isnt bossa but great,
Johnnie Alf
Great musicians like Luizao Maia said “Eu sou da bossa”, meaning great players would use the hamonic lessons of bossa and make great instrumental music.
besides Luizao, look for Gilson Peranzzetta, Paulo Russo, Luiz Avilar,Barroshinho
This is just off the top of my head, there are so many great bossa artists
dont know Ceu
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O
It is a kind of syncopation 101
Nothing against it at all, but, playing with that oompha oompha for a whole song would be limiting for a drummer used to jazz or samba . I would feel locked in .
The Irish have some of the more livliar folklorico music from Europe. But it mostly has a lot of things leading in on the one even if there is an strong second beat.
Look at some of the River Dance dancing and compare it to the great black tap dancers.The syncopations are much more sophisticated against the one they are stating.
Flamenco is a powerful syncopated music , but, its based on a phrase you have to follow within a 12 beat cycle. It isnt the kind of call responce beats in Afro diasporic grooves, you dont have to think of a phrase in a 12 beat cycle, you have to hold your part that is synced up with the other parts in the groove , then it takes a life of its own you dont have to think about as much as a Flamenco peice.
Nothing bad about the Flamenco peice or Irish music, but the idea of grooving so hard that you are letting intuition take over and turning the thinking brain off, and letting feeling come through, is part of the magic of the sub sahara African concepts.
“soul”, “swing”, “groove”, “feel it”,”ginga” , ” in the pocket” are all examples of phrases that are used to describe Afro diasporic musics
Notice your first cut, you brought in, its arranged, changing every few bars back and forth, you have to think of the arrangement all the way through ( for sure there are lots of black American music that is arranged and changes the beat in the groove, but, they also can use techniques from European arranging and harmony), but the deep groove music Im talking about, allow the music to flow to allow intuition to take over and makes the harmony and arrangement be submissive to a continuous groove.
James Brown (lots of kicks and changing b sections sometimes but deep in the grooves), hip hop, clave from mambos and salsa (also can use kicks and arrangements, but the groove has to be the king for the dancers to dance), jazz that uses less arranging and kicks for more swinging and grooving like Miles Davis or Coltrane on A Love Supreme or Kind of Blue compared to highly over arranged big bands.Bossas, blues, reggae, calypso , merengue and many others fall into this catagory.And they have European influences also.Some have more, some have less.
These are examples of music that the European harmonies and arrangements have to be submissive to the groove.
some of the music you showed uses simplicity, but, again the depth of rhythmic groove is not as deep as James Brown, for example
Was that second youtube ,you showed, with an Irish group or blue grass musicians playing an Irish song?
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B.R.
“Nothing against it at all, but, playing with that oompha oompha for a whole song would be limiting for a drummer used to jazz or samba . I would feel locked in.”
Yeah that is probably why there are no drummers in Bluegrass. LOL
“These are examples of music that the European harmonies and arrangements have to be submissive to the groove.”
“some of the music you showed uses simplicity, but, again the depth of rhythmic groove is not as deep as James Brown, for example”
So if I understand you correctly, in your opinion the groove in Bluegrass is secondary to the melody/harmony? If that is what you are saying I would have to agree. The complex melody is what makes Bluegrass loved by so many Appalachian people, there is a history in that melody. The same way there is in African beats I suppose.
“Was that second youtube ,you showed, with an Irish group or blue grass musicians playing an Irish song?”
The second one was an American duo playing a Bluegrass reel, 100% Americana, it does have a measure of 6/8 thrown in there, but overall I would say it is a reel. It definitely has an Irish feel to it though. Which was my point from the beginning.
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O, can you show me an Irish group playing Irish music , using that “syncopation” of the emphasis on the back beat?
That would be interesting to me.Something told me these guys were American , but, if you can find an Irish group playing traditional Irish music (not U2), with a back beat emphasis, it would reveal something as well as if you cant find one playing that style.
If you can, check this out, just to see an example of what deep groove and syncopation and incredible ties to sub saharan African roots , looks like:
If Thad thinks this is paralell developement, there is a tremendous problem with his ears.
These guys are rolling off of 2/3 clave. Its important to use 2 of the African youtubes I brought in (not the pymies) to see how deep the connection is. In one of them, a guy riffs exactly the 2/3 clave lick these guys are building the whole groove off of.
Sure, they are using horns from Europe and the American invented trap set, and electric bass, but, this Cuban based music is totaly built off of a sub saharan African base that is undeniable.
Paralell developemet? Ridiculas
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O
Here is some Irish drumming
As Ive said before, its lively
But, I hope we can all notice that it kind of a marching on the one cadence.
Nothing wrong with that, and there is some Scottish snare drum teqnique that is very good , but, also in a march kind of on the one cadence.
This isnt about saying about which is better, just pointing out the properties that make them what they are and understanding the differances from other cultures
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B.R,
“O, can you show me an Irish group playing Irish music , using that “syncopation” of the emphasis on the back beat?”
Like you said earlier that oompha oompha sound is very Polka ish, there is a reason for that, many people don’t know this but polkas have been traditional dances in the British Isles for a long time.
The sound quality is not so good on this one: Irish Polka http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18Xb_Sfc5-A
This one is close: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0__-Y_iqi08
Also the second largest group of immigrants to come to Appalachia were the German and Polish. They brought their Polka with them as well.
If you scan up about ten comments there are more youtube links that were in moderation.
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O
Thanks. They definitly have a differant feel than the clips you brought in from blue grass.
it makes me think that that back beat they put in the blue grass is an American thing, its American influence…
but, keep looking and I will too, id like to see if there is some pure Irish music that had that back beat hit on the guitar like the blue grass did
For sure we can start to see the syncopation differances from the Irish music and sub sahara African music
nothing like youtubes to clear things up, words just dont do when you can hear it and see it.
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Well as stated in my last comment the British Isles has Polka dances so the influences could have come from that. The first video in my last comment is an Irish Polka that has that oompha oompha sound to it.
Also you mention sub Saharan African drumming a lot, but isn’t the drumming style different among different regions or tribes, in the sub Sahara? I guess that is what I meant earlier when we were discussing culture and drum beats, and I disagreed with you. You mentioned Classical music is spread throughout Europe, but it has to be taught individually and it is not really a cultural thing in my opinion. Isn’t the drumming in Sierra Leon different than say South Africa? When you look at the folk music in Europe it is greatly different in different regions, there really is no one unifying music in Europe, other than Classical which is not cultural.
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O , I have many times said that each region of people in sub sahara Africa has their own unique charactoristics, and, their own styles of drumming and dancing.
I never said it all sounds the same.
And I also said that they have some rhythms that cover a similar concept that you can find all over sub sahara Africa.
I have proved this various times. Cant you hear the similarity in the drumming from Semagal to Ghana to the pygmies to the example from the Zulus ( they have plenty of stuff that sounds differant , but the example I gave sounded similar to those others)?
Didnt you listen? Cant you hear that? I sure can.
Why do you say Classical music has to be learned individualy? What is the differance from the African traditions Im talking about being passed down , as well as the customs of the people from individual regions also. I have already shown pygmy youtubes that shows customs that are obviously implicating an older time.
Thad sais they change , for sure , some things change, but they hunt with bows and arrows , and spears, , live a life style that has many similar things to how people lived thousands of years ago, so , aspects of their music has that also, as well as parts that did keep developing.And I think they were just one people who were developing drumming and dancing concepts that were similar in sub sahara Africa at that time. And , I beleive some of those aspects were passed down centuries as well as aspects evolved also.
I dont see why you are willing to say Europe can have diversity of language, customs and folkloric musics unique to their regions, but, can have Classical music, that has a similar standard that all the countries write symphonies, ballets and operas .
Why cant sub sahara African have the same thing? With its own unique standard and genius. Its simple to me, and , most important, I can hear it. I can hear the similaraties in some drum beats from Senagal to the Kikuyu and Watusi and Ghana drumming and aspects of some of the pygmy drumming that expresses a genius of how to aproach polyrhythmic drum /dance that has the ability to turn off the thinking brain and get in touch with the intuition.
If you dont think it can be similar in various regions, how could these concepts also get to the Americas ( you did listen to the African stuff I said to compare with the Cuban stuff, right? I mean you did note the absolute connection right? Because if you didnt listen , we are just wasting words).
Even the religious expresions followed the slaves with these beats and dances and intuition in the form of candomble, voo doo, santera etc.This was not parrallel developement.
Of course things mixed with other influences in the Americas to create new styles , but, the origins and essences are easily recognisable.
Man, harmoney is something that European classical music gave to the world.
Even in black innovated jazz, besides the Afro influenced blues chords, just about any harmony that is expored, was explored first over in Europe. And then brought over to the Americas. I dont see why we cant say the same thing for sub sahara African rhythms and how they are the origins for so many grooves and dances that you find in the Americas that had slaves.
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B.R.
First of all I wouldn’t even consider classical music European anymore because classical music is being written all over the world, and there is no culture attached to it. The automobile was invented in Germany, so does that mean all cars should be considered European?
I don’t think Europe has one culture or musical style, just like I don’t think Africa does. There is intermixing in said culture and music, but that does not make it is one whole culture in Europe or Africa.
When I hear you say sub Sahara culture or music, to me it makes no sense. It is like saying European culture; what does that mean? There are so many cultures in Europe, to just say it is all one culture just sounds wrong to me.
I hear the similarities in African beats and European harmonies and it might make them related but it doesn’t mean they are the same culture.
Lets say you hear a Irish jig being played on a drum, would you say that it is a European jig, or an Irish jig? I would have to call it a Irish jig, to just say it is European is too broad of a statement for me. If I hear a Flamenco peace, I call it Spanish not European.
So B.R. the bottom line is; we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I would really like to learn more about different sub Saharan drumming styles though, I could learn a thing or two from a man like yourself.
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gees, O , I already talked about the diversities , in Europe and Africa, Ive said it over and over, but you arent hearing me or the music.
Did you listen to the youtubes Ive brought in? Didnt you make the connections ?
Everyone knows that Europe is the place where the priciples of Classical music were put together.Sheet music is read in all kinds of styles of music , but, everyone knows the concept of reading off of 5 line staff music is a European one.
Yeah play an irish jig on a drum and its an irish jig, you play “clave” and you are playing sub sahara African oriented music.
above is some bluegrass that definitly shows its American side. Plus, the guitar backbeats of the American stuff you brought in is from an American style of guitar playing that is in jazz and blues , I cant find it in pure Irish music. If you can please bring it up
(why is it me brining in the Irish drumming and livliar blue grass? It should be you.Is it because I know how to research music better? )
about above–Those of us who really play these rhythms for a profesion know about the African roots. Just listen to this drum educator talk about it in the first part of his presentation.The rest gets more complicated, but pay attention to what he sais in the beginning.
You and Thad can agree with each other to disagree , but, those of us who have gone into the depths of learning how to play these rhythms and dances from jazz, to funk to hip hop to Afro Cuban, to Brazil to African music itself, know the truth about the roots.Its all I hear from the masters , that the roots are from Africa.Who am I going to beleive? Them or you and Thad?
You and Thad arnt masters, you are reaching for something you really dont know about, making up theories.Thad has anthopoligical knowledge, but, doesnt have music knowledge.
Thad cant hear what cascara and clave is, calls it paralell developement .How in gods name can he make statements that a bell pattern, that obviously has origins in Africa, could be parallel develped in South America or Cuba? Like spears or blow guns? Ridiculas, ridiculas as thinking sheet music written in a classical music style in Japan was a paralell devoped form of sheet music invented in Japan.
You could say samba is something that has origins in Africa , but, has evolved and developed into something unique in Brazil.
Nobody is saying that these styles didnt mix and develope into new styles in the Americas , unique to each country they were developed in. We are talking about origins , and, how those origins were brought to the Americas and developed into new styles of music and dance.
Nobody sais Brazilian music is African music, but, we can definitly see the origins of many of the beats and dances.
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East African Kenya drumming. The first part is almost a rumba /cha cha cha feeling , not the same cadence as the Ghana drumming , but very much in the principles of the sub Sahara African drumming Im talking about. But, get to 3:25 and they hit a groove that is like a slow version of the Ghana and Senegal drumming I brought in.
More East African Kenya drumming…..its kids….look at their groove!! very much in the groove of the Ghana and Senegal drumming
O, Ive brought in sub sahara African drumming from west Africa, south Africa, east africa, different tribes, differant languages, and they have , besides culture and music that is unique to their own regions, other grooves and beats that are extremly similar in concept.
What in hades is it going to take? Ive proven my point over and over and over again. They can even do differant cadences, but the groove concept ive talked about is in effect. Where are your ears , man? Forget you and Thads words, the music is right here to prove it.
I can bring in a bunch of 6/8 from all the regions that would have a similarity in culural concepts, and I can bring in the culural concepts that are differant , just to show I know there are culurlal differances also.But, my point is proven, above your disagreement , or Thad, who really tries to sound like he is an expert , when he is not.
Im bringing in mostly duple meter grooves to show the similarities to many black cultures in the Americas, but they all have 6/8 also (candomble, voo doo, santeria)
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Now , just for some dazzling drumming and dancing:
forget about the “whats wrong with this picture ” at 2:37, this is some forceful African drumming dancing concept.
Its hard for me to try to show the truth to people like you and Thad, who dont have the ears to really hear it.
You would almost think its a couple of white boys who just dont want to recognise the sub sahara African genius whose beat and dance origins absolutly dominates the popular music scenes in our present day pop cultures around the world.
But I wont go there yet….
Herneith….please come in here and crack on us, I need your humorous outlook on the head ache Im getting….
But, I think its just the crickets chirping now over here in the boonis
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Its all about perspectives BR.
Is the glass half full, half empty or is there just a liquid in the glass??
Even when you make reference to ‘European music’ we have already discussed the ‘African’ influence via Turkish band.
Even here in the UK you had a sound called ‘Jungle’. Even though it is primarily Black people who ‘created’ it. It is never ever viewed this way and was viewed as as a ‘British thing’, and I suspect this is the way the music history books will classify it specifically by area and not the peoples…
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Yeah, J
Its funny, the argument was if there was any continuity in a sub sahara African drumming and dancing concept .
I bring in youtubes from west , south and east Africa that show beyond a shadow of a doubt that there are similar concepts in these drumming styles , even though they come from differant tribes and languages , that have their own unique expresions also.
Yet, O and Thad say that the truth before their very eyes is not true.
How can people like Thad, say a bell part ,that is obviosly African, be paralell developement ? It bogles my mind !!
And, then its obvious…..HE CANT HEAR IT….HE CANT HEAR CLAVE….HE DOESNT RECOGNISE GROOVES….THERE IS NO INDIAN OR PORTUGUES BELL PATTERN LIKE THAT IN BRAZIL, ITS AFRICAN !!!!! HE JUST CANT HEAR IT!!!!
Anthropology is not music and dance.But they ought to recognise that,it would help them get closer to the truth. Except he would have to go back to the drawing board on all his “there is no one culture” theories and tweak it a little…I think that would hurt too much
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B.R.
“Yeah play an irish jig on a drum and its an irish jig, you play “clave” and you are playing sub sahara African oriented music.”
I don’t think you understand what I am saying, if you are playing a clave, you are playing the clave of whatever African country created it. To just say sub Sahara is too broad of a statement. I am not discrediting African drumming styles, or their influence on the world, in fact I think you are not giving the individual countries or regions enough credit.
As far as Bluegrass is concerned I would say that back beat is more Polka in nature, than Jazz or Blues. There was more Polka brought to the Appalachia area than African influence. I suspect the song arrangements, and the way one instrument plays the melody or lead, and the rest of the instruments play rhythm are where the Jazz influence comes in.
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B.R.
“beyond a shadow of a doubt that there are similar concepts”
The key word here is SIMILAR, not the same. I never disagreed that they are not similar B.R.
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B.R.
Most people can’t tell the difference between Scottish and Irish music, for the most part I can. To call Scottish music Irish, or vice versa is disrespectful to their cultures. If you told a Scotsman you liked his Irish music, he would not be too happy about it.
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O, im not sure where I mixed them up, I just mentioned Scottish snare drums as a referance to something in that area of the world that has an interesting take on how to play rudiments in a march context.I never meant it to substitute or represent the Irish.
As I said, I could have brought in examples of their diversity in those African youtubes , but, the “similarity ” of these specific youtubes I brought in, proves what Im talking about beyond a shadow of a doubt.
About the guitar parts,it is in a “polka ” context, but they have inserted a technique that guitarists in the USA use for other idioms.That doesnt diminish the origins they are trying to express , but , ackowldedges they are incerting other influences from America where thay live.
Its based on many many guitarists Ive worked with in the states in a jazz of blues or rhythm and blues idiom. They use that clipped choked effect to emphasize that back beat, actualy imitating a snare hit in rhythm and blues and blues, and, if you cant show a pure Irish group that uses this technique, you have to asume that it is an American influence, and , part of that influence, like the banjo, is black American, with African origins.
But, if you can find a pure Irish group doing their traditional songs with that effect (they have to be trying to play traditionaly , because its obvious there are many modern Irish who do rock and rhythm and blues), that would show it is a pure Irish influence.
Look for it and let me know….Ive done my part to prove my points.
“I don’t think you understand what I am saying, if you are playing a clave, you are playing the clave of whatever African country created it. To just say sub Sahara is too broad of a statement. I am not discrediting African drumming styles, or their influence on the world, in fact I think you are not giving the individual countries or regions enough credit”
No , you are wrong, I brought in clips from various African countries, that were playing a very similar groove, including the last clip, a guy in the end, is playing the exact 3/2 clave and a guy in the Senegal clip is playing a 2/3 in his part, so , no, its not from one country, its from a bunch of areas.
I dont think you or Thad really understand what you are saying…
Did you look at all the clips? All of them including the Cuban clip ? The pygmies, the Senagal and Ghana, the kids, the east African groups , the Zulu group ?
Do you understand what I am saying?
Did you hear what the educator said?
Did you see the children ? I mean the children , O, the children, how could you deny the children ?
Because your repeated arguments show that you dont get it at all, bra…..
Please keep trying !!
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With regard to:
“Its funny, the argument was if there was any continuity in a sub sahara African drumming and dancing concept “.
This much I understood, my point is if you do not believe or do not want to see ‘continuity’. Then you not going to see it.
Whereas if you see ‘continuity’ then it will exist. I think most Black and or Black-orientated musicologist do see continuity.
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I am not going to debate the African rhythm thing any more, you could show all the rhythms across Africa, they could all sound similar, but that is not going to convince me that all of sub Sahara shares the same culture.
Here is a traditional Irish band playing a traditional Irish peace with emphasis on the back beat, you can really hear it kick in around 2 minutes and 4 seconds.
Believe me B.R. there is a lot of British and Irish music with this sound, more so in Britain than Ireland though.
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B.R.
That first band was from Isreal, so they may not have been from Ireland, but they were playing it traditional style. Here is another video that is a Irish band, with emphasis on the back beat.
Here is another one with a oompha ommpha sound to it.
Pretty much any hornpipe from the British Isles has this feel to it.
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B.R.
Okay this is the last one. This band is from England, if you watch the guitar player he is using a chopping pattern emphasizing the back beat, just like a lot of bluegrass players use.
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B.R.
I lied; this will be my last comment on African beats.
I was thinking hard about this, and I came up with this analogy.
Most native Americans play drums, most of the drum beats go thump thump thump thump, striking the drum on every 1/8 note. Most native Americans used bows and arrows, and dressed with animal skins. These are all similarities, but that does not mean they shared the same culture. They had different languages, hunting strategies, different fashion, different creation stories and different culture. Just because most of them played the drum with the same thump thump thump thump on the 1/8 note, and they all shot bows and arrows, does not mean there was some unified culture among them.
Now apply this analogy to sub Saharan African tribes. They are similar, but it does not mean they are unified, or that they share the same culture.
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B.R
“Its funny, the argument was if there was any continuity in a sub sahara African drumming and dancing concept “.
I didn’t say there was no continuity in African drumming, that was Thad. My argument was just because there might be a continuity does not mean they share the same culture. I don’t know enough about African drumming to know if there is a continuity.
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Whew, what a cultural exchange, huh ? By now , I certainly know the differances between the African concept and the Irish concept.
There never was a question about the “oomphaa oompha”, I just noted that it seems the blue grass guys are having a little more “chick ” to their back beat hit,I could be wrong, and, I know that “chick” technique is done by some American guitarists in blues or rhtythm and blues, implicating a snare hit. But, that isnt as important as they are in a polka feeling , no matter what.
Well, interesting you mention the Indians, because , down in Brazil, when they show their drumming, it is exactly how you described, not far off from Indian drumming in the Southwest Ive seen , with of course some differances, but glaringly similar concepts.
Which actualy plays into what Im saying, even though these Indians come from long distances and from differant tribes and languages, there is something that is similar in their music concepts of how they aproach drumming.
They certainly are more close in concept with each other than say this sub sahara Arican concept Im talking about.
I think you have to take note of that , and, put that in your theory. Tribal and regional cultures may be differant, but , musical concepts , like drumming, seem to carry over past boundries of tribes or regions , and reach back to before migrations to the differant areas they went ( I mean the Indians did come over the Bearing Straights, so , these concepts were brought over with them. As they split up , or from differant waves of migration , they developed differant cultures, but, aspects of these concepts stayed with them.
Same with sub sahara Africa. For some reason, these polyrhtymic drumming concepts are spread out over Africa , and , its a sound unique to them.
Drums are one of the oldest instruments to man.
What I suggest is, in Africa, some of the fundimental aspects of polyrhythmic drumming must have been set in place before migrations . And, tribes that broke off and went in other directions ,brought some of those concepts with them, and then developed their own unique cultures in their new destinations.
The aural evidence is too overwelming.
I think that the problem is when you try to say things like language and hunting strategies are equal to the drumming concepts of these peoples. The drumming concepts of these respective groups (Africans and Indians) , while being differant for each of them, go back a long way.
How else can you explain it? Why can I bring in you tubes that prove their are similarities to various regional sub sahara African drumming concepts?
And, these African concpets are differant from native American Indians, who have their own drumming concepts, that sound similar from North to South America ( at least in certain tribes Ive seen north and south).
From Turkey to Afghanistan and into India, there is another kind of drumming concept that is a phrase based rhythmic concept (I brought in a history of the tablas linc that verifies the tabla came into India from the Arabs, but , the Indians (of India) had started their “tala” concepts as far back as 4000 years ago).
J, for sure, I see and feel and hear the continuity. And, Im also deeply aware how the sub sahara African drumming concepts have a power to create a life of their own (” the ” groove” ), and tap into the subconcious and intuition.
In jazz, this intuition and improvisation, a very deep part of it, and , a group of African drummers, playing together holding their parts and letting one drummer solo, is the same as a jazz rhythm section holding the swing and form while a front person takes a solo.We hold our parts down while the soloist improvises on top and we ,feel it, and allow intuition to come to the front as we turn off our thinking brains ( at least to the point of following a simple enough form to make that happen. A more dificult form, requiring more thinking about the form, would be a differant process and bring in other aspects of making music that were perfected by other people’s concepts.)
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B.R.
“I just noted that it seems the blue grass guys are having a little more “chick ” to their back beat”
There are a couple reasons for that:
1. Most British/Irish groups play with a Bodhron Irish drum, Bluegrass players don’t have a drum so they make up for it with a more percussive “chip.”
2. British/Irish don’t usually play with a mandolin, mandolins have a particularly loud “bark” which makes the chopping technique sound more percussive.
“What I suggest is, in Africa, some of the fundimental aspects of polyrhythmic drumming must have been set in place before migrations . And, tribes that broke off and went in other directions ,brought some of those concepts with them, and then developed their own unique cultures in their new destinations.”
Well I don’t think I can disagree with that. Like I said earlier though my only gripe was that I don’t think drumming and a very distant connection in the past, unifies or connects them culturally. I still think saying sub Saharan drumming is a little vague though, since different regions have evolved there own style, but the is just my opinion.
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O,O,O,O
Many times I have said that there are obvious cultural differaces , like language , for instance.
So, there is some agreement. I get that you are portraying me as saying that everything is uniformaly the same in sub sahara Africa, when I have painstakingly done everything I can to imply that is not where I am coming from.
Now here is the one thing we have to confront about. Where we can agree that culture like language is differant in the sub Sahara, and , there are many cultural artistic expresions that are differant , at least we have to say that drums are cultural also.
And, where I did say that , there are drums and beats that are unique to each region and from tribe to tribe,my youtube proof shows there are culturaly connecting concepts of drumming and beats. Drumming and beats that seperate themselves from Indian drumming, or what you can find in Europe, or the mid East, or Japan etc.
So, at least , if you are making your hypotheses of what is differant in cultures in the sub Sahara, at least you do have to acknowledge what is connected and similar in concept.And, if you actualy saw those youtubes, you know its the truth.
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Well Black Brazil in this Black gringo’s gaze was depressing. Black Brazilians may not share a common history with
I recently visited Rio de Janeiro and I practically cried when I witnessed the disparity between darker Brazilians to their lighter counterparts.
I saw white Brazilian children being walked to school past Black Brazilian children sitting on the streets begging for change. I was helped in stores and restaurants by white Brazilians 90% of the time and they were absolutely none working in the hotel we stayed on Copacabana Beach.
Most of the people living in the shanty towns were Black Brazilians and in the recent election, I only saw two Black Brazilians out of scores of people running for office.
And don’t get me started on interracial relationships. I can count on one hand the number of Black Brazilians walking with a White Brazilian who was a significant other. In fact, my best friend and I drew looks because I’m black and he’s blonde and blue eyed.
Yes, Black Brazilians are different from African Americans and both cultures are rich in history, but we are all haunted by the effects of the African diaspora despite the fact that the ship we arrived in arrived on different continents.
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Sure, Brazil is as racist as the day is long. This should be no surprise to anyone. But if you only saw two black Brazilians out of scores running for office, you weren’t looking very hard. I presume that one of those two, at least, was MArina da Silva, the presidential candiateS who got 20% of the vote and tosse the election into a second round? Or did you not notice her?
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Abagond,
Black-Americans and Black-Brazilians share the same african ancestry, but not the same black ideology or mindset. As you have stated many times on your website, blacks in latin-america never had a civil-rights movement. They don’t love their blackness in the same way that we love our blackness as black-americans who are unapologetically black in every aspect. Living in Miami, born and raised, I see the contradiction and insecurity of our latin sistas and brothas on a daily basis, especially the sistas. I see a lot of them in relationships with white and mestizo(indian) men who really think that they’re blackmen, but real blackmen aren’t good enuf for them. It’s funny and sad at the same time. Their racial insecurity and brainwashing benefits the likes of Jennifer Lopez, Eva Mendez, Sofia Vergara, and many other white latin women. As with everything else in black culture, intelligent, independent, self-loving blackwomen are the key to salvation. I don’t hate our latin sistas and brothas, but, they gotta get their mind right if they wanna deal with us in a meaningful way.
Tyrone
Momma Africa Always Wins
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Tyrone says,
Abagond,
Black-Americans and Black-Brazilians share the same african ancestry, but not the same black ideology or mindset. As you have stated many times on your website, blacks in latin-america never had a civil-rights movement. They don’t love their blackness in the same way that we love our blackness as black-americans who are unapologetically black in every aspect. Living in Miami, born and raised, I see the contradiction and insecurity of our latin sistas and brothas on a daily basis, especially the sistas. I see a lot of them in relationships with white and mestizo(indian) men who really think that they’re blackmen, but real blackmen aren’t good enuf for them. It’s funny and sad at the same time. Their racial insecurity and brainwashing benefits the likes of Jennifer Lopez, Eva Mendez, Sofia Vergara, and many other white latin women. As with everything else in black culture, intelligent, independent, self-loving blackwomen are the key to salvation. I don’t hate our latin sistas and brothas, but, they gotta get their mind right if they wanna deal with us in a meaningful way.
Tyrone
Momma Africa Always Wins
laromana says,
Tyrone,
MOST BAM are some of the most obvious self hating BP on the planet. This can especially be seen in the ANTI-BW HATE they condone/promote in the BC/American culture/media.
MOST BAM only date/marry WW/NON-BW and they constantly PUBLICLY trash the humanity, dignity, and femininity of BW (as well as go along with NON-BP who do the same).
I know from first hand/real life experience that Afrolatinas (like J-Lo/Eva Mendes who are NOT “White” latinas) are open to date/marry QUALITY men of ANY RACE.
Just because Afrolatinas don’t RESTRICT themselves to BM (like BAM don’t RESTRICT themselves to BW) doesn’t mean they “gotta get their mind right”.
It’s clear that BAM have too many of their OWN issues with race to “get straight” before they go around criticizing Afrolatinos (or any other NON-BAP from around the world).
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@laroma
Black Americans are self-hating? LOLOL
I don’t know any black folks that would trade their African heritage. Not one! The anti-BW AND BM hatred today is just a racialized gender war w/ an emphasis on gender.
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The Cynic says,
@laroma
Black Americans are self-hating? LOLOL
I don’t know any black folks that would trade their African heritage. Not one! The anti-BW AND BM hatred today is just a racialized gender war w/ an emphasis on gender
laromana says,
The Cynic,
I didn’t say ANYTHING about “Black folks wanting to trade their African heritage”.
It is a FACT that MOST BAM ARE PUBLICLY promoting ANTI-BW HATE and by doing so they are demonstrating a lack of respect/appreciation for their own Blackness.
Just because their ANTI-BW HATE is sexist as well as racist doesn’t mean they don’t need to deal with THEIR race issues.
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So if Black Brazilians aren’t black then what race are they? Brazil has black people…South America has black people. There’s black people all over the damn globe. Different ethics, different cultures, some different mixtures but they’re all of the same African Diaspora ancestry. Brazilians in my opinion aren’t more or less MIXED than African Americans. So why do they get to play this “mystery race card” but we don’t? Why do they even want to be “raceless”? How does dissociating yourself from other “Afro” people in the world make life easier? How is this limiting? When was being “black” limiting to ones culture? Sounds like self hatred to me. Brazilian is their nationality just like American is ours. So what is their race? During slavery there was MORE Africans shipped to Brazil than America so if anything their BLACK population is waaaay higher than the black population in America! I seen several times that the largest population in Brazil is BLACK. Come on now. Black people have been all over the globe for centuries since ancient times. A different culture, a different ethinic doesn’t mean you’re not black. ONLY black have this self idenity crisis..NO other race have this issue. Europeans & Asians can celebrate their MANY different cultures,ethinic groups, mixed ethinics in their continents & in the world BUT we can’t? We run from ourselves and each other. It’s sad really. That the black man world wide is unhappy with himself and the title “black, African, Afro, etc”
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YES!! this article is completely on point!
i have felt this way for years about the attitude and self-serving, naval-gazing perspectives of our black american brothers and sisters in regard to places like latin america (including, of course, brasil).
the audacity of transposing ones’ own relatively narrow and definiately place-specific understanding of race to another culture is ridiculous and ignorant to say the least.
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moreover, i think transposing our own perspective on race to other places, such as latin america, backfires in our understanding of not only blacks there but the others in those societies, as well. take black american views of, say, “white” cuban-americans, for example. how many black americans see a “white” latino as somehow not “reallly latino”? it’s ridiculous. and ignorant. (how would we feel if some random foreigner didn’t feel WE were “real” americans because we didn’t look like the Cleavers (theorectically their perception of “authentic” Americans)??
i’m curious, agabond, have you seen henry louis gates, jr.’s specials, “black in latin america”? i’d be interested to see your take on it.
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fascinating discussion. i am black american who has traveled to China, Thailand, Indonesia, Sweden and Brasil. I speak chinese in addition to having studied anthropology and the philosophy of science to a master’s level.
i wrote a paper on Cruz e Souza as a university student. i am familiar with the works of Diop, Clarke, Geertz, Boaz, Clifford, Fanon blah blah.
i wish to offer some observations about my own experiences as I’ve moved through the world.
i lived in China in the early 90s. Most of my friends were “black.” One sister was 1/2 Russian of a Zairian father, who grew up in Stockholm. She spoke French, Swedish in addition to Chinese and English. Francophone, Anglophone, the African peoples tended to co-associate. The Africans treated me as a brother, that is cordially though most of my time was dedicated to study. We only spoke in Chinese together. My “girlfriend” of sorts was a Mexican who was in the same program.
At the time, western media hadn’t so inundated China. I had dredlocks and have hazel eyes. The Chinese were struck, but were clueless as to what type of person I was, though some soccer fans would associate me with the “Dutch” footballer Ruud Gulit (sp) or just “modernity,” a psychic illness gripping China for the past century.
I attended a wedding reception at the Guinean embassy on one occasion, where an African man had taken a Chinese woman, clad traditional in African attire, as his bride. They played black music at the party. I don’t mean black American music. I’m talking about the stuff that makes music good. Bob Marley is in that bag. Fela is in that bag. Of course, so is Jorge Ben, though they didn’t play any of his stuff to my knowledge. Was it he, Mr Ben who, no doubt in a fit of bad-faith, made an album Africa Brazil.
When I went to Brazil, Salvador, in May of 2001, I had already traveled to Thailand and Indo for extended stays. My experience in a Muslim country was exceedlingly pleasant and the people were kind beyond my expectation, very different from Thailand. I could not help but think that the people were in part as they were toward me because we were the same colour. In Java, the Papuans, who also have nappy hair, most natural, would stop me to determine whether I was one of them. I don’t identify with Papuans, per se, but I don’t think it’s a stretch for different peoples of nappy hair to see they have more in common than they know. This is a beautiful mystery.
One thing I will say for certain is that the black women of Salvador are no where near as fat as the black women in all the states, with the exception of California. I wonder to what extent the sun plays into this, given solar deficiencies among blacks of N. America. Second, the presence of black American music, particularly from the 70s, was unmistakable. Contrast this from the frequency with which John Denver or Karen Carpenter or Simon and Garfunckle in China or Metalica and the Eagles in Thailand. What could account for such a different sound-trac?
Let’s back the camera up shall we and take a look a a voluble and emotive group of so-called Americans from a state like Georgia. Take a look at what they eat. Listen to the sounds they make. You don’t hear them saying “oo-la-la”, but the sounds are the same as the ones you hear West Africans making. White or black. The blackness of white Americans (US) is most evident when you contrast them from their Europ-Australian counterparts. Of course on some ineffable level white southerners know this, which is what drives the psychosis of whyte supremacy. Poor S. Africans. jajaja.
I surmise that something similar informs our author’s comments. Brasil just doesn’t know how to come to terms with just how African it actually is. Every great American cultural expression–that is unless you consider Hollywood culture–has mined the rich cultural repository of its Africanness. It’s very much the same in Brasil, but the best they–that is the apologists for whyte supremcy– can do is miss the forest for the trees. When you see that even now the repression exerted around black natural hair in Brasil, the entire exercise strikes me as more “academism,” than having anything to do with the realities confronting black people of the Americas (yes we include the Garifuna, Gulla, and the unrepentant of Surinam), in particular, but globally as well.
That said, Brasil is a vast country and it’s not reasonable to presume that the Nazis residing in on the Argentine, Paraguan, and Bolvian boarders, relative new comers, are more than a spruce and a pine amidst a forrest of mahogany.
What is Jorg Ben on about anyway? I’m sure Brasileros would NEVER do as the anglo-phonies who sit about smoking pot listening to Marley having NO clue about the lyrics
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Every culture is unique; therefore, it is hard to use one culture to judge another. You can never really fully understand a culture unless you were born into it or have truly experienced and lived it for many, many years, a decade or more.
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[…] This is my summary of "Tourism Black and Blues" by Ana Paula da Silva, a PhD in anthropology who currently teaches at the University of São Paulo as a post-doctoral fellow. She is also a gringo wat… […]
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Ok, well if someone wants to bring up this thread again, I have some new comments to make on it…too bad Anna cant debate me on it…
first of all , a minor point, I dont know where she got the jazz beat isnt considered Afro diasporic, because it most certainly is…
But , after various recent business trips to the Northeast and Salvador, and my son getting seriously involved with the culture and bringing me even more new information to add on to the vast amount I have already absorbed…I just dont agree with her position about what black americans can or cannot get out of Salvador
We just picked up a whole bunch of new CD’s and DVD’s that go seriously in depth into the beats and dances of Candomble…which I knew some from before, but, this new DVD by Bira Reis,just breaks it down like no other…and I learned things that are seriously opening my head to new ways to play Samba, which is a hugly popular Afro diasporic dance and beat…and Candomble beats hold deep treasures to the secrets of popular dances and rhythms that developed later on…if someone really wants to understand popular Brazilian dances and beats, Candomble beats have wondeful information to some of the origins
and , the 6/8 Afro oriented sticking beats (I knew a lot of the hand drum beats but hadnt really studied the sticking beats) have opened up wonderful new physical benafits to playing the jazz swing beat…yes, the jazz swing beart has serious Afro roots and 6/8 candomble sticking beats, just shoot my jazz swing beat into a more effortless , more physical apropriation of how execute that swing even harder
I dont see black americans only looking at Afro Salvador culture for Afro roots, but as living snapshots at something that has been dissmissed , buried or destroyed in their own culture…even as a white American, it tells me an incredible amount of our history in the Americas and slavery, and fills in great gaps that are hidden in Americas slave history
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[…] This is my summary of "Tourism Black and Blues" by Ana Paula da Silva, a PhD in anthropology who currently teaches at the University of São Paulo as a post-doctoral fellow. She is also a gringo wat… […]
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Funny, Nascimento said he didn’t feel his work was truly recognized until he came to the US in 1968 and was received by the African diaspora there. He had a pan-African perspective but this article would imply otherwise.
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I can’t believe this post was 10 years ago.
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A black gringo— Now, that’s hilarious!
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