This is for my white American readers. Maybe you already know all of this, but just in case:
- America is still racist. The old Jim Crow racism that the Klan loved is mostly dead, of course, but a much more subtle colour-blind racism has taken its place. It is weaker than the old kind, and it has allowed the growth of a black middle-class, but it is still racism all the same. The words and actions of white people in mixed company have changed far more than their hearts and minds.
- Most whites are blind to their own racism. Because it does not affect them or anyone they love. The anything-but-race argument, like “It is economics not race”, is part of this blindness. Whites can afford to be blind to it like that, blacks cannot. That is why blacks seem so “sensitive”, why they seem to see racism that is not there (you think).
- You are racist. You might not think you are, but you are. America was built on racism and still runs on it. It is still an important part of how white Americans think about themselves and the world. You cannot grow up in America and escape it.
- Blacks are racist too. But blacks do not have the kind of power in society that whites do through the courts, the police, the banks, the newspapers, the film industry and so on. Also, black racism is more turned in on blacks themselves than against white people.
- Nearly half of Black America is middle-class. You would not know that from watching television or if you live in white suburbia – both of which were built by white racism and serve to keep you away from flesh-and-blood black people.
- Snoop Dogg is not black. Well, he is in the strict sense of the word, but most of his “blackness” is a put-on to entertain white people. In the old days it was called a minstrel show. Michelle Obama, despite all her money and education, is way more like how most black people are.
- Blacks are not all that different deep down. If they were, then how in the world could they make music that the whole world likes? Or why would Christianity appeal to them so much? They have a universal humanness that most of the world knows and sees – like in Muhammad Ali and Martin Luther King. Blacks are different, yes, they are not just brown-skinned white people, but they are still just people all the same.
- There is absolutely nothing wrong with being black. Black people are not some kind of mistake that God made on the way to making white people. There is not some secret crack inside them. They are perfectly fine the way they are – certainly no worse than white people.
- Whites look down on people who are different. They act like something is wrong with them. Not all white people act that way, but enough of them do – while the others just sit by like they agree.
See also:
God bless,
Good one there…
Peace
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Good points raised.
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I’ll have to read this a few more times, but my first thought is that you always have “White” with Blond hair and blue eyes as your Example. Most do not look like this.
As far as this quote:
Blacks are racist too. But blacks do not have the kind of power in society that whites do through the courts, the police, the banks, the newspapers, the film industry and so on. Also, black racism is more turned in on blacks themselves than against white people.
Ok. What about Black racism towards the latin community. Towards the asian community? Even the term Black and White, which was created by elitist lawmakers, makes me sick. Neither of these are a race.
Also, where do you stand on Christians? Nobody was more responsible for slavery world wide than the Christians. How can you stand by a religion that has caused so much bloodshed?
My last point, for now, is that All white people live in the suburbs. This is simply not true.
Whites look down on people who are different. Yes, this is true. I would say though that you would have to classify these whites as Rich whites, or corporate whites.
Again, white is a state of mind, not race. We must get past this.
Finally, who would you say used the “N” word more against blacks – whites or blacks?
I think this is a narrow minded post.
Putting Blond hair blue eyed people as the poster of “White” people is the same as putting up a pictures of Snoop as the poster of black people. There are over a quarter of a billion people in this country, and the majority of them do not think as you say they do.
The elite in society, yes. They do. I come across it all the time.
But that is not the majority. I feel this is going to go back and forth all day, so I am ready.
We need to get past simple Black and White, as we are made up of much more than that. Me, I’ve got a nice tan and a hook nose, which gets corporate folks who have mayflower roots a little angry when I don’t act like they want.
Bring it.
-Stal
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haha – love the “Snoop Dog is not black” point. Seems that most Americans expect blackness to reflect what they see in music videos… and then, when confronted with “actual” black people, they see them as angry or eloquent, scary or well-behaved.
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About the picture:
That is a picture of Vanna White. It is kind of a joke.
Here is the picture I first considered:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/istanbulmike/191459332/in/set-72157594201837268/
I love that picture, the trouble is people would tell me she is not “white” but “Latino” and then I would have to change it. Besides she is not even American.
The thing about people with blue eyes and yellow hair is that no one doubts they are white – they are no where near that grey region where the Latinos, Lebanese, Jews and Armenians are.
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Still though, same stereotype as snoop is for black people.
Just saying, the rules have to go both ways.
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I am sorry: Vanna White is way way more like most white people than Snoop Dogg is like most black people.
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Black racism: it does hurt people, I am not denying that, but nowhere near the scale of whites. That has to be understood.
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The evils done in the name of Christ: that is a completely different post. A good one, but not this one. I will add it to my list of Suggestions.
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About whites in suburbs: Sorry, that was a bit of bad wording on my part. I know full well that not all whites live there. New York City is about half white – twice as white as it is black.
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Again on black racism: that is another post, but I would say for now that blacks are hurt by it way more than anyone else.
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Stal: You said:
“Whites look down on people who are different. Yes, this is true. I would say though that you would have to classify these whites as Rich whites, or corporate whites.”
Sorry, that is just not true. It is far more widespread than just that.
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The n-word: Blacks do say it more but that does not make it right. It is a racist word no matter who says it. But that too is another post.
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Stal: I admit it, Vanna is a stereotype to me. Any suggestions of who to replace her with?
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That is pretty much the point. I don’t think one person can represent an entire race of people. I agree with you on the “White” mentality.
You think Vanna White is more like most white people? Really? Empty headed people who just turn letter for a living. I don’t think it’s true.
I guess it’s all where you grow up, right? I mean, take any of those towns in America that were run by the Auto Plants and then put all the people out of work. What about one of them?
What about the coal miners who still live in below poverty conditions.
Celebrity does not reflect majority.
The point is, we need to start coming up with solutions.
How about a picture of Nelly and Vana White together?
That would be balance.
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Now I think you are the one stereotyping Vanna. She is much more of a complicated person than you give her credit for.
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hahahahah – that’s right, she was in Playboy as well.
Vanna, if you are reading this before you are about to turn those letters, I am sorry. Just got a little heated.
truth be told, i was always a more Press Your Luck fan.
No Whammies!!!!
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I got rid of the Vanna White picture. I now have a picture of “white people” from the blog “Stuff White People Like”. Any stereotypes it may have are certainly not of my making.
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Your interesting and provocative post unfortunately arrived with a tidal swell of work. However, a brief response:
America is still racist. “America” is a collection of 300 million individuals of diverse ethnicities, religions and beliefs. There are racists of all ilk in America. There are Nazis, skinheads, crackers, so-called “color-blind” racists (to use your term), etc. There are also black Muslims, Surenos, Asian gangs of all ilk, all of which are abject racists. I have been a part of watchdog groups that have sent out testers to ferret out housing and employment discrimination (and have proven its existence).
There are also millions of decent, kind, thoughtful people here who treat others with respect and dignity regardless of race. I have also sat in corporate boardrooms as executives try to figure out ways to boost minority hiring and advancement. I have scoured resumes for clues of blackness – “Hmmm, let’s see, last name Washington, went to Tulane, coaches youth basketball. Let’s figure out a way to hire this guy.”
In a global context, American is probably the least racist country on earth or in history. Certainly in comparison to Russia, China, Japan, India, Brazil, Mexico, any country in Africa or anywhere in other parts of the developing world, where the most abject forms of jingoistic racism continue to be the social norm, America is head and shoulders ahead in terms of its progressive attitudes toward race. Even compared to the handful of modernized western European states, America is non-racist. Black people in lily white Scandinavian countries are treated like trash. Possibly in Germany, Britain and France there are people as enlightened about race as the United States is. Possibly. Ain’t a lot of black folks living in those countries, though.
None of which should come as a surprise. Any study of history will tell you that racism is the normal state of humanity. Where we don’t have race, we create it. Look at the Crips and the Bloods in Los Angeles. All of them black. All from LA. Yet they voluntarily create their own racial distinctions, via colorful bandanas and fanciful hand signs, and they enthusiastically hunt and kill one another merely for being a member of the “other race.”
If you want to see real racism in America, wait until the economy really begins to tank, fuel and food become genuinely scarce, and Russia, India and China emerge as world superpowers. Then you will see Americans draw up into their own tribes and battle one another for the scraps. Until then, you need to open your eyes to the fact that current America is without historical or cultural precedent in terms of being race-neutral. This is about as good as it’s gonna get, brother.
Most whites are blind to their own racism. Probably true. Most blacks are too. No surprise. People tend to be blind to their own pathologies.
This guy isn’t blind to his racism: http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=5237459&page=1
He’s racist and proud of it. Soon, he’ll be dead because of it. America is a nation that will execute people for racial crimes of hate. The only nation that will do so. Put that in your “America is racist” pipe and smoke it.
You are racist. I’ve been bludgeoned with this quaint false syllogism since the 1970’s. I reject it. I am not racist. Live with it.
Blacks are racist too. …”Also, black racism is more turned in on blacks themselves than against white people.” Wrong. Statistically (as a function of percentage of population), black people are more likely to commit crimes of violence or hate crimes against whites than vice versa.
Nearly half of Black America is middle-class. I do agree that our mainstream media foster a very false view of black America as mainly rappers and gang-bangers.
Snoop Dogg is not black. Whatever. Snoop makes way more money than I make. If I could make his kinda cheddar, I’d be a minstrel too.
Blacks are not all that different deep down. This is at least the second post I’ve seen by you raising this point and it’s the one I find most troubling at a personal level. Do you really think white people need to be told this?
There is absolutely nothing wrong with being black. Again, at least the second time you’ve posted this. Again, do you really think this even needs uttering? Your view of racial relations is so pessimistic and dark.
Whites look down on people who are different. All people prefer others who are like them.
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The we-treat-our-blacks-better-than-anyone argument is one that goes back to slave days. It is one that Pat Buchanan uses.
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Blanc2:
So like if the police shoot and kill my son for being unarmed-while-black I should tell myself, “Thank goodness I live in America! The least racist country in history!” Maybe you should write to Sean Bell’s widow. I doubt she has heard the news.
Do you see how morally broken that argument is? Do you see how only a white racist would be comfortable with it?
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Blanc2, you said:
“There is absolutely nothing wrong with being black. Again, at least the second time you’ve posted this. Again, do you really think this even needs uttering? Your view of racial relations is so pessimistic and dark.”
Yes, it very much bears repeating in a country where only one married white man in 400 married a black woman. One in 400! What are they, lepers?
Even granting that it is quite natural to want to marry within one’s race for plenty of decent reasons, that number should be more like 1 in 40, not 1 in 400.
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All nine points do not apply to all white people. But each one is in answer to things they have said, some of them in comments on this blog.
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If a white person is interested enough in anti-racism to be reading your blog, s/he either knows that stuff already (with the exception of the blac middle-class bit) or is a really obvious, proud racist who has come here to post insults and is thus unlikely to listen to you.
“Whites look down on people who are different. They act like something is wrong with them. Not all white people act that way, but enough of them do – while the others just sit by like they agree. ”
How many people have you met who DON’T look down on peopele who are differet. As a disabed person, I am looked down upon by many people of all races. I have also met many disabled people who believe tht all non-disabled people are bigoted, lazy and stupid. I have met physically disabled people who look down on cognitively disabled people. I have come accross people with Asperger’s syndrome who insist that it is a positive thing, but look down on those with full blown autism. As a woman, I have been told bluntly and openly by a man I respected that women are intellectually inferior to men. I have also been drip-fed images by th media that tell me if I’m not constantly preccupied with looking perfect then I shall be a failure in life. As a person living with clinical depression, I have been told that my illness is “attention seeking” by people who know nothing about either my personal experiences or the science of the human brain. Because my political views do not fit easily into “left” or “right” I have been accused of selling out my prnciples, whe in actual fact I never subscribed to the set of principles people claimed I subscribed to. As a Catholic, I have come accross all sorts of bigotry, ranging from people blaming my depression on my religion, to elaborate and bizarre anti-Catholic conspiracy theories, to a general distaste for Catholicism which has no explanation even in the minds of those who feel it.
I have plenty of prejudices of my own. I used to be very afraid of homeless people. As a middle-class person, I have been taught to fear people from poor neighbourhoods. As a child labelled “gifted” in school, I looked down on those who lacked that label. As a disabled person, I used to assume I was more determined and interestig than non-disabled people. As a Catholic, I have looked down on other denminations, other faiths and those of no faith. As a British person, I used to assume British people were more intelligent than Americans and had a better sense of humour. As a white person, I was very surprised to realise that middle-class blacks are closer to a rule than an exception. I have been taught to believe that black peple lack ambition. I am sure I have hundreds of other prejudices which I do not see as prejudices but as “common sense”.
I am guessing you didn’t mean to imply that white peple are the ONLY ones who look down on people different than they are, but some people might read it that way, which is wrong.
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Ok. What about Black racism towards the latin community. Towards the asian community? Even the term Black and White, which was created by elitist lawmakers, makes me sick. Neither of these are a race
There is racism on both ends of the coin when it comes to blacks and latinos and blacks and asians. Even if you don’t believe in the construct of race, you have to be aware their is a racial hierarchy in this country, whites on top, blacks on bottom and other minorities in between, and many have fallen for and embrace this hierarchy. The focus is on white people because white people are the majority. They have the biggest influence on other races, and the historical significance of blacks and why we are here as Americans. How we were and are treated by the laws and justice system from the inception of this country to the present.
Finally, who would you say used the “N” word more against blacks – whites or blacks?
It’s doesn’t matter who uses the word now, the origins of the word, and the history of the word make it wrong to use period. Not to mention just because someone doesn’t say the n-word does not absolve them from racism.
My last point, for now, is that All white people live in the suburbs. This is simply not true.
True, not all white people live in the suburbs, but I can say that you as a white person have the luxury, if you want to avoid flesh and blood black people at all cost. I as a black person, even in my most militant can not avoid having to interact with whites, whether I want to or not. There is a reason there is the term “white flight”.
Whites look down on people who are different. Yes, this is true. I would say though that you would have to classify these whites as Rich whites, or corporate whites.
It’s not just rich whites who look down upon others. Poor whites look down upon others as well. Even though they are poor and white, it is still assumed in some minds they are better than any black person could be.
Putting Blond hair blue eyed people as the poster of “White” people is the same as putting up a pictures of Snoop as the poster of black people. There are over a quarter of a billion people in this country, and the majority of them do not think as you say they do.
I would beg to differ. I think many think the way Agabond’s post has stated, but they are too scared to say anything, as being labeled “racist” is seen as a negative rather than a positive.
We need to get past simple Black and White, as we are made up of much more than that.
We do need to get past the white and black issue, but the problem is white people don’t want to admit their status in American society and how it has affected other races. They don’t want to let go of their status either. The thought as being seen as an equal to a minority scares many white people for fear that there will be retaliation.
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There are also millions of decent, kind, thoughtful people here who treat others with respect and dignity regardless of race. I have also sat in corporate boardrooms as executives try to figure out ways to boost minority hiring and advancement. I have scoured resumes for clues of blackness – “Hmmm, let’s see, last name Washington, went to Tulane, coaches youth basketball. Let’s figure out a way to hire this guy.”
No one disagrees with that logic, but I will disagree with you as a person who has worked in corporate America and the push to hire minorities. I know as a college educated black woman, I have interviewed for professional jobs in which people assumed I am interviewing for a customer support role, the receptionist role, and less “prestigious” work. I have had people’s jaws drop when they get me past a phone interview and have me come in for an in person interview. The phone interview I was perfect for the job, the in person the tone changes and they aren’t quite sure if I am the right fit. I also know many black people who never get past the HR office, as their resumes are thrown away, regardless of experience or education because some one named their child “Keisha” or “Jamal”. I know in my personal experience, that the white guy with less experience and education will get better raises, get promoted quicker than me, and have opportunities to work on projects I am never offered, and when I push for such opportunities, I get the ones rejected by the white male employees. In terms of resumes and cues for blackness, what about black people like me without the “black name” and HBCU? Where do we stand?
I have actually left corporate america to become a housewife, and hopefully a teacher in the next few months because I would rather take a pay cut than be treated in the manner in which I have been treated.
In a global context, American is probably the least racist country on earth or in history.
Do you really think that, Jim Crow tells me differently. In terms of progressive attitudes towards race, why is it white people cringe at the thought of lower property values when blacks move in, why do I have a better chance of paying higher fees and interest rates on my car and home? Why do I continue to make less on average than my white counterparts for the same job with the same experience and education?
Possibly in Germany, Britain and France there are people as enlightened about race as the United States is. Possibly. Ain’t a lot of black folks living in those countries, though.
There ain’t a lot of black folks here in America in comparison to whites and hispanics.
He’s racist and proud of it. Soon, he’ll be dead because of it. America is a nation that will execute people for racial crimes of hate. The only nation that will do so. Put that in your “America is racist” pipe and smoke it.
He hasn’t been sentenced to death, he has been found guilty, and even though America is the only nation that will execute people for racial crimes of hate, explain to my why in America if a black person commits a crime they will receive a harsher penalty on average than a white person who commits the same crime, race based or not? Why is it most black people are scared of police, even us black folks who live in the “white suburbs”.
black people are more likely to commit crimes of violence or hate crimes against whites than vice versa.
Did you ever think that blacks commit crimes of violence or hate against whites than vice versa is because there are simply way more white people than black people? Most crime in this country is intraracial, not interracial.
Blacks are not all that different deep down. This is at least the second post I’ve seen by you raising this point and it’s the one I find most troubling at a personal level. Do you really think white people need to be told this?
Yes they do. Growing up as a “only black”, you need to be constantly reminded of this. My experiences growing up in white suburbs, amongst supposedly educated people are that some white people honestly think blacks are on a completely different level than them. They feel we are what the media makes us out to be hip hop, gang banging, violent, poverty stricken, ebonics speaking,with children out of wedlock, living on the system type people, and when you don’t fit into that mold, it completely many white people off.
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Sean Bell is a horrific racist incident. There will always be horrific incidents of brutal injustice and violenct, no matter how progressive a nation as a whole becomes. No country or society has ever or will ever be free of injustice. Ever.
That is not the logic of a white racist. That is the logic of anybody with open eyes to the imperfection of the human condition.
You don’t think that there are millions of whites suffering cruel injustices of their own on a daily basis?
The news lately has been filled with reports of the SCOTUS ruling on death penalty for child rape. Have you read the facts of that case? That man didn’t just rape his stepdaughter. He savaged her so fiercely that her cervix was ripped from her uterus and her intestines were portruding from out of her vagina. She will never regain normal excretory or reproductive functionality, never mind the nightmarish emotional hell to which she has been condemned by this brutal act. Does that mean that America is a nation of brutal child rapists? I think not.
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If a horrific act can define an entire nation, I guess America is also a nation of lesbian gang-banging child abusers?
http://news.lp.findlaw.com/ap/o/1110/06-26-2008/20080626012003_12.html
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If a horrific act can define an entire nation, I guess America is also a nation of lesbian gang-banging child abusers?
Are you counting Jim Crow and Slavery as one horrific act? The income disparities between whites and blacks as one act? The numerous accounts of police brutality as one act? James Byrd, Emmitt Till, and hundreds if not thousands of African Americans lynched, murdered, and robbed as one act?
Sean Bell was the case that represented lots of other cases. It was the first you heard of a black boy being slained by officers, but it wasn’t the first incident, nor will it be the last.
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Wait a minute. Sean Belle was not murdered by a white person. The three cops were White, black and Latino..Let’s get the facts straight.
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Slavery and Jim Crow are not germane to our discussion. I’m almost fifty years old and neither has been a part of my life (depending on your definition, Jim Crow officially ended with (a) Brown vs. Board (1954), (b) the Civil Rights Act (1964) or (c) Loving vs. Virginia (1967)).
I doubt there are any posters on this board significantly older than I am. Thus, I am quite certain that nobody posting here was alive during times of either slavery or Jim Crow. In fact, I’d be willing to hazard that many posters here do not even have parents who were alive, or at least sentient adults, during times of slavery or Jim Crow.
Since WWII, America has undertaken an effort of scope and magnitude without historical or cultural precedent for the specific purpose of revising and correcting her attitudes toward minorities, women, gays, disabled, etc. — groups that were historically excluded here and are currently excluded in most other nations of the world. The results of this effort are not perfect, nor can they ever be. However, they have been profound. We have blacks, females, gays, handicapped on college campuses, in professions and corporate boardrooms, as CEOs and other corporate officers, and holding political office of all ilk, all over the country. Some have reached the highest pinnacles of success. Oprah’s wealth and power are exceed by only a handful of individuals. Millions of white Americans are right now enthusiastically campaigning for the election of a black man to the postion of POTUS. Etc.
One can scour the news and find dozens of examples of brutality of all ilk. Child abuse. Spousal abuse. Police abuse. Horrific facts, with victims of every age and race and sex.
It would be incorrect to conclude from those facts that we are a nation of violent sociopaths. In reality, most Americans are decent, hardworking people with good hearts. I’m sure most posters here have, among their familial and social circles, dozens or even hundreds of examples of this.
Similarly, it is bad logic to conclude from a Sean Bell incident (I won’t go to the correct point raised by stalherz that at least one of the Sean Bell cops was black) that America is a nation where cops routinely kill unarmed blacks for no reason. America is a place where cops do sometimes kill unarmed citizens of all ilk (it happens to white people, too, but this almost never makes the news because it doesn’t slake the MSM’s thirst for race-baiting), often without jusification. Though this affects all people, I am certainly aware of ample evidence that it affects black people disproportionately.
At the same time, America is a place where millions of police serve with honor and decency, saving countless black, white, brown and yellow lives every day.
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Slavery and Jim Crow are not germane to our discussion. I’m almost fifty years old and neither has been a part of my life (depending on your definition, Jim Crow officially ended with (a) Brown vs. Board (1954), (b) the Civil Rights Act (1964) or (c) Loving vs. Virginia (1967)).
I doubt there are any posters on this board significantly older than I am. Thus, I am quite certain that nobody posting here was alive during times of either slavery or Jim Crow. In fact, I’d be willing to hazard that many posters here do not even have parents who were alive, or at least sentient adults, during times of slavery or Jim Crow.
Uuhhhmmmmm I don’t know what state you live in, but Jim Crow was alive in well in my parents lifetime, my father was in high school in Texas when schools were integrated, and it wasn’t until 1996 that Dallas Independent School District was declared officially integrated by the Federal Government. I live in Texas, grew up 6 miles from a town still regarded as a Sundown town. Brown vs. Education might have been 1954, but it didn’t automatically end segregation. You think being 50, you would realize that. Let’s re-evaluate and determine 1963 or 1964, and depending on what area of the country you live, you could still be in segregation and not know it. My parents very much remember Jim Crow. By the way my mother is 55 and my father is 59. Like I said, they remember it, but since it didn’t affect you, maybe you didn’t notice.
Maybe you lived up north where everything was peachy, but please learn about Jim Crow before posting about it. Here is some starter information.
Also note that we are only talking close to 50 years ago, do you think the institutionalized racism and inequality of Slavery and Jim Crow is something to just get over. You don’t think it should have an effect on how people are treated and how they react in this day and age? Of course, per usual, we just have to “get over it”, as blacks we just sit around complaining, and never do anything to better ourselves. Do you think that people who remember Jim Crow, obviously excluding you, still don’t have the mindset, the beliefs instill in them? Do you think those people dropped off the face of the earth and no longer work, or have jobs, or don’t have positions of authority in the work place and board rooms, and when they are in their corporate boardrooms trying to increase diversity, they don’t mean for management or professional positions, but more for low wage jobs?
Since WWII, America has undertaken an effort of scope and magnitude without historical or cultural precedent for the specific purpose of revising and correcting her attitudes toward minorities, women, gays, disabled, etc. — groups that were historically excluded here and are currently excluded in most other nations of the world. The results of this effort are not perfect, nor can they ever be. However, they have been profound. We have blacks, females, gays, handicapped on college campuses, in professions and corporate boardrooms, as CEOs and other corporate officers, and holding political office of all ilk, all over the country. Some have reached the highest pinnacles of success. Oprah’s wealth and power are exceed by only a handful of individuals. Millions of white Americans are right now enthusiastically campaigning for the election of a black man to the postion of POTUS. Etc.
Note, you are aware our first potential “black” President has a white mother? We do hold various positions throughout corporate america, but it still doesn’t explain in this day and age why people of the same work experience and education have different incomes when the only difference is color. Using Oprah as the example of a successful black and asking other blacks why can’t they be like her, is like me asking white people why they haven’t achieved the levels of Warren Buffett.
In terms of WWII, I find it funny I had a grandfather fight in that war, just like countless other soldiers and come back
At the same time, America is a place where millions of police serve with honor and decency, saving countless black, white, brown and yellow lives every day.
I’ve never been to jail, but I can say of all my experiences of dealing with police officers, not one incident was positive, but again there is a distinct difference between how they would treat you, rather than me.
It would be incorrect to conclude from those facts that we are a nation of violent sociopaths. In reality, most Americans are decent, hardworking people with good hearts. I’m sure most posters here have, among their familial and social circles, dozens or even hundreds of examples of this
Yes most people are hardworking with good hearts, but usually this is not the first thing that comes to mind when people think of blacks. They think blacks were given hand outs and jobs simply for being black.
Similarly, it is bad logic to conclude from a Sean Bell incident (I won’t go to the correct point raised by stalherz that at least one of the Sean Bell cops was black) that America is a nation where cops routinely kill unarmed blacks for no reason. America is a place where cops do sometimes kill unarmed citizens of all ilk (it happens to white people, too, but this almost never makes the news because it doesn’t slake the MSM’s thirst for race-baiting), often without jusification. Though this affects all people, I am certainly aware of ample evidence that it affects black people disproportionately.
You obviously see what you want to see. Not to mention the race of Sean Bell’s killers is irrelevant. Law enforcement treats blacks inherently differently than whites. Blacks can be racist against other blacks. Have you ever heard of a “brown paper bag” test? The point of Sean Bell is that there is a vast difference in the treatment of minorities vs. whites, and when blacks and whites do go to jail for the same crime, they get drastically different sentences. I guess we are to treat each and every case as an individual.
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Blacks are not racist. Blacks are reactionary.
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“Blacks are not racist. Blacks are reactionary.”
I can see how you say blacks mistreating whites is a reaction to greater mistreatment. I disagree, but I see where you’re coming from. But what about balckpeople who are racist to asians or hispanics? What about black anti-Semites? What about the black people in South Africa who are racist towards Mozambicans and Zimbabwean refugees?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7419862.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/7405072.stm
And, going back to your point about beng reactionary, I think that this is reaction is pretty racist.
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Siditty: Forgive me. I realize now the truth. As long as you live in America, no white person will ever in your life judge you (or any other black person) by your (or his) merits or give you (or him) the benefit of the doubt. In fact, it’s likely that your life will end in a fusillade of police bullets, which is the likely fate of every other black American.
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Siditty: Thank you so much!!! I agree with almost everything you say, especially the corporate bit.
Blanc2: Siditty has been nothing but respectful with you. She has shown way more patience than I ever would have. She does not deserve your sarcasm.
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Sean Bell being shot by a black cop: surprise, blacks are racist against their own kind. It is a very old story. And so is blue on black crime.
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sanabituranima: I am Catholic too and have run into the same thing.
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America freed its slaves. Not every country would have done that.
America overthrew the caste system of Jim Crow. Not every country would have done that.
But that does not mean racism is dead and everything is peaches and cream.
America has about another two more steps to go before racism is dead and gone and being black in America becomes no worse than being, say, Jewish.
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Blanc2: your comments have been an eye-opener for me: I never thought anyone in America married to a black woman could be so blind to his own and his country’s racism.
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sanabituranima: You said:
If a white person is interested enough in anti-racism to be reading your blog, s/he either knows that stuff already…
If only!
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In response to Abagond’s comment, #40:
Don’t be surprised, man. I actually learned this truth a while ago.
It doesn’t matter how educated a white person is, who they date or marry or how many black babies they give birth to or how many friends they have, some very hard truths still elude them and the innate racist attitudes don’t disappear at all.
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Siditty: Forgive me. I realize now the truth. As long as you live in America, no white person will ever in your life judge you (or any other black person) by your (or his) merits or give you (or him) the benefit of the doubt. In fact, it’s likely that your life will end in a fusillade of police bullets, which is the likely fate of every other black American.
LOL, You got your feelings hurt. I presented actual information to you, and now you are reacting with sarcasm. Just FYI, I am married to a white man, I gave at least one white person the benefit of the doubt and at least one white person didn’t judge me, neither did his family. So that makes about 30 or 40 white people. I think the difference between you and him is that he actually doesn’t feel pretending racism doesn’t exist will get rid of it.
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Siditty: Thank you so much!!! I agree with almost everything you say, especially the corporate bit.
Thank you 🙂
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Blanc2: your comments have been an eye-opener for me: I never thought anyone in America married to a black woman could be so blind to his own and his country’s racism.
You have got to be kidding. I wonder when his wife gets followed in a store, or when someone treats her differently than him, does she tell her to get over it, or does he sympathize with her? Or in his part of the world does racism not exist?
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@sanabituranima
Blacks are reactionary and still not racists. I read the articles you presented; both articles are essentially about survival and refugees not race. Both instances show examples of outside groups infiltrating South Africa and affecting people who already are severely limited intheir resources. The looting and taking of resources from the immigrants have caused the South Africans feelings, not race. It is about the access to resources and survival.
As an aside, I would like to mention the Mozambicans and Zimbabwean conditions began with racist White Imperialism.
Black Americans feel hostility against other minority roots not becauseof racism but because of the perception that other minorities take resources away that would be afforded to Blacks. For example, Black Americans have suffered a lack in resources in additon to the general disenfranchisement because of a surge in illegal immigrants (mostly Hispanic) driving down wages and job opportunities historically performed by Black Americans of non-Hispanic descent and also because of outsourcing ( to mostly Asians). Regarding Anti-Semites who are Black, it is still reactionary not racist. The perception is that Jews have taken resources (i.e. businesses and reperations) that could have been afforded to blacks.
As far as the video, it was obviously reactionary although I don’t personally agree with his reaction. The man starts by trying to address a problem where he feels the only reasonable reaction to the racism brought about by Whites across the globe is to kill them. Of course, this is ridiculous but it is not racist.
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“Black Americans feel hostility against other minority roots not becauseof racism but because of the perception that other minorities take resources away that would be afforded to Blacks. For example, Black Americans have suffered a lack in resources in additon to the general disenfranchisement because of a surge in illegal immigrants (mostly Hispanic) driving down wages and job opportunities historically performed by Black Americans of non-Hispanic descent and also because of outsourcing ( to mostly Asians).”
I agree with that, but the same is true of poor white people who are racist. This is why he British National Party is so popular in areas full of poor whites in the UK. Immigrants brong down wages and population rises caused by immigration drive up rents. This is the root of most racism among poor white people in Britain. I’m not justifying it, but it is a reaction. When that reaction becomes hate crime, I call it racist. The same applies to poor black people.
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Response to Blanc2
I think what is so and frustrating to many people of African descent is that people just adamantly refuse to see the cup as half empty or half full; to them the cup is not even present. Racism and especially institutionalized racism is present in America the obvious racism of Jim Crow is no longer present waving the Rebel flag in your face (except is some areas), but the quite racism and bigotry which states you should never try to reach my level is here. People of color especially black people have all experienced this at some point in their lives, and if they have not like my grandmother always says: keep living.
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@sanabituranima
I think we share the same view but just express it differently. Of course, hate crimes are related to hating another group but we must examine the crime. Not all crimes against someone of another race are hate crimes.
There is a distinction to be noted between poor people who dislike another group because of race (E.g. They may describe a person this way: big lips, slanty eyes, niggers.) and poor people who dislike another group because of access to resources(e.g. They might say: They (white ppl) are closing down the factory and building one in Mexico. The Whites have given MY job to the Mexicans.) The later response is not abbout hating another group because of feeling your race is superior.
Black people are reactionary not racist. Racism is stemmed from feeeling your group is superior. Black people in the US are so brainwashed into associating black with negativity that the spending habits (e.g. weave, skin bleach) of Black Americans indicate their desire to further assimilate into the majority.
Therefore, Blacks are not racist only reactionary. The response of Black people react to a perceived problem but does not stem from a feeling of racial superiority that typifies the racism of Whites.
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Jazzy: You framed my own frustration with this discussion perfectly. To me, it is a “cup half full/half empty” issue. However, to my mind, it’s people like Agabond and Sidittiy who refuse to see the existence of the cup or take its measure.
Anybody who has read my posts here would know that I have never denied the existence of racism within the U.S. Hell, I endure racist acts personally all the time in the life of my own mixed family, from both blacks and whites. I’m not blind to the racist slights we encounter as we do nothing more than try to live our quotidian lives.
At the same time, I do harbor an optimist’s view about racism, a “cup half full” view.
I also believe it’s fallacious to say that America is a “racist country” based on the existence of racism among a portion of its citizens, as if a country can possess an anthropomorphic characteristic.
What I was attempting to point out in this post is that, in historical or global context, it’s also incorrect. Racism is as old as humanity, perhaps the most universal of human conditions. In most countries of the world throughout most periods of history, racism was/is overt, vicious, brutal and an express part the weltanschauung of a population group. By comparison, the level of racism within modern U.S. is relatively low.
I note, by the way, that none of my detractors in this thread have addressed the point, in my first post, that, as a percentage of population, blacks commit more race-based crimes of violence and hate against whites than vice versa. And the data on this makes it seem even milder than it really is. The FBI data lumps whites and hispanics together in the “perpetrator” category, but not in the “victim” category. Thus, it artificially inflates the % of white-on-black crime. Even against this artificially inflated measure, blacks as a percentage of population commit more violence against whites than vice versa.
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Blanc2 I have to disagree with regarding Siddity and Abagond not visualizing the cup. I think both of these individuals are very aware that a “cup” exists. All three of your views are shaped from different experiences that will color an individuals perspective.
My personal belief is that America has lots of people of ALL ethnicities that are closet racists. My definition of a closet racist is someone who is not aware that their actions or words are offensive and racist.
Those are the people You, Abagond, and Sidditty (myself included) should try to reach because those are the people that will be more willing to change and to accept others. Those people that are out right bigots and proud of it shrug your shoulders and move on.
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However, to my mind, it’s people like Agabond and Sidittiy who refuse to see the existence of the cup or take its measure.
I’ve measured that cup many times. I honestly don’t understand how someone can downplay slavery, Jim Crow, and the mentality that went with it in regards to both whites and blacks, and not wonder why the two groups see life so differently. The whole “you should be glad you live here, it could have been worse” argument seems to me to dismiss that and pretend as these things don’t affect how whites and blacks see each other.
I also believe it’s fallacious to say that America is a “racist country” based on the existence of racism among a portion of its citizens, as if a country can possess an anthropomorphic characteristic.
Again that is your perspective. I believe most people in America are racist, they can’t help but to be racist. They are not all in the KKK or the New Black Panther Party, but they are the ones who get nervous when they see a group of black boys outside on the street corner, or tense up when they white police officer patrolling the street. Just because someone doesn’t deem me to be a n*gger, doesn’t mean they don’t make assumptions about me, nor because I don’t see all white people as “crackers”, doesn’t mean I don’t have my own reservations about some white people.
in this post is that, in historical or global context, it’s also incorrect. Racism is as old as humanity, perhaps the most universal of human conditions. In most countries of the world throughout most periods of history, racism was/is overt, vicious, brutal and an express part the weltanschauung of a population group. By comparison, the level of racism within modern U.S. is relatively low.
Racism in America has been overt, brutal, and vicious, and just because you don’t see the overt racism, doesn’t mean it is there. I would hope you wouldn’t say racism isn’t brutal or overt to the family of James Byrd, Jr., Sean Bell, or Sparkle Rai. Political correctness ensured that people hide their “true feelings”. Not to mention it is completely different to compare American racism with historical racism, ours is different. No one has offered to return us to “home”, and even if they did, where would they take us? Native Americans were given land (worthless land) and casinos, Japanese descendants and victims of internment camps were given money and allowed to sue, african americans received nothing, except a warm reception of “get over it, it is in the past” diatribe, and a “why can’t you pick yourselves up by the bootstraps” type attitude, forgetting that MOST black people do just that, and wanting to focus on what they watch on BET as an accurate reflection of all blacks.
——–
a percentage of population, blacks commit more race-based crimes of violence and hate against whites than vice versa. And the data on this makes it seem even milder than it really is.
Since you are going to pretend you didn’t see my response to this, let me state it again. Blacks are a small portion of the population, we for the most part have been segregated from the rest of the population. White people can go days and days without seeing a flesh and blood black person, black people cannot do the same in regards to white people. From the police, to their school teachers, to their job, more than likely it will never ever be all black, there will be some whites sprinkled in somewhere. In terms of wealth and income, there is a vast disparity between whites and blacks. Now adding this together it makes perfect sense, whites who are income disparaged usually go after other whites, as they as seen as the “ones with money”, as a black person it is assumed you are poor, why steal from a black person? Black people on the other hand have more access to white people, and the stereotype is “whites are rich”, so who are you likely to go after a “poor black person” or a “rich white person”? It makes perfect sense, to me.
Or would you like me to say as a black person I am just more prone to violence and hate white people?
———-
Blanc2 I have to disagree with regarding Siddity and Abagond not visualizing the cup. I think both of these individuals are very aware that a “cup” exists. All three of your views are shaped from different experiences that will color an individuals perspective.
Thank you Jazzy, you understand me LOL
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Blanc2: Think of it this way: if this country was run by lesbian gang-bangers for 200 years, it would completely warp the mentality of everyone, even or especially the banged. And that mindset would not suddenly disappear just because the lesbians lost the right to gang bang, certainly not if they remained in power.
America is just like that, only our lesbian gang-bangers were white owners of black slaves. Like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson.
Even white people now agree that owning a black person or hanging him from a tree is wrong. So that is progress, but not the sort of progress you want to take pride in when writing blog comments. Much of the thinking that made those things seem right and good – as they once did!!!! – is still with us. Not just in the mind of white people, but even black people. It has screwed up everyone.
So racism is not a matter of a few bad apples, it is not a matter of imperfections in the system. No. It is a matter of twisted thinking that ALL Americans get from the past. Not just Klan members or Byrd’s killers, but Abagond and Siditty and Blanc2 and Stal and Jazzy and Stephanie and even Ann, as beautiful as she is.
Sean Bell’s death is crystal clear proof of it – that it is still here in everyone’s head. I used to live in that part of New York. His death was not some tragic “mistake” – it is the tip of a terrible iceberg that white people do not want to look at. But not looking at it will not make it go away. It will just let it last another hundred years.
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** News Flash **
Jim Crow and Black Slavery isn’t dead.
Have you ever wondered why the U.S. has the highest incarceration rates of all nations?
Jim Crow (or Black Slavery) is still very much alive and flourishing in present day America.
The plantations have only shifted their locations and products a little. They have been remodeled and “white” washed – made to look legally presentable and deftly refined.
These plantations are hidden from the masses in plain view.
And it’s a VERY PROFITABLE and growing enterprise for the members of the elitist cartel.
We could call it the Corporate-Industrial/Prison/Criminal Justice complex… or system.
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Dahmn, excellent list, stuff white people definitely oughta know all right, thank you. (came over from teh linkage at Stuff White Peeps Do.
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Jazzy, Siditty and Agabond:
The fact that I missed Siditty’s first response to my comment about violence by blacks vs. whites speaks to the fact that this post has come at a time of heavy workload and time stress. I did miss it the first time and I apologize for that. I’ve simply not had the time to read or digest every one of the points made here. To the extent I have evidenced frustration or impatience, it has been caused by my stress level and time crunch.
I’m still in crunch mode and cannot address all of the very important points raised by all of you. Just a few points in no particular order:
Jazzy said: “Those are the people you, Abagond, and Sidditty (myself included) should try to reach because those are the people that will be more willing to change and to accept others.” I could not agree more. Keep in mind that a blog like this enables a diverse group of relative strangers to discuss topics like this. It doesn’t change the fact that we are strangers. Intimate strangers, to borrow a phrase. We only know about one another what we choose to reveal. I am quite certain that if I were to put my record of efforts to eliminate or combat racism against anybody’s, it would hold up honorably. Community groups. Volunteer work. Mentoring. As seniority and experience leads to a larger voice in the workplace, using my position to steer hiring, mentoring and promotion decision to minority candidates (keep in mind that this includes minority, female, disabled and gay). Using my dollar, when possible, to buy from black-owned businesses (something, by the way, that most black people I know don’t do). Most important, conducting myself personally so as to treat everybody with the same basic human courtesy and respect. Etc.
I’m not saying this to blow my own horn. The significance to me is that I’m pretty much just an ordinary guy. My parents weren’t radicals or hippies or anything of that nature. We were a conservative church-going family in a small Midwestern town with zero black people. The only thing I’ve had to guide me to this place has been the moral compass my parents gave me – the directive that all humans of all ilk deserve to have their humanity and honor respected.
I have lived a lot of life, in a lot of different parts of the nation. My observation has been that there are lots of people like me, average people who recognize that the responsibility for ending racism resides within the individual heart and that the most important thing we can do is to conduct our lives honorably, taking down racists when we can, extending a helping hand when we are in a position to do so, and in the meantime treating everybody with decency and respect. Just as Agabond has posted multiple times about how “there is nothing wrong with being black” and how “black people are just like white people” and how “most black people are middle class,” I feel the need to repeat certain truths about white people, among them being that there are a lot of decent, honorable white people in this country who understand black people and who are consciously directing our lives to combat racism. When I hear phrases like “American is a racist country,” to me that negates the impact of all of these individual lives, never mind the defeatism embedded in the phrase. As I noted before, I am an optimist by nature. I refuse to embrace defeatism.
As to the %s of IR marriages, as I’ve said in other posts, this is changing, quietly but inexorably. Of my little group of small town friends who went away to college together, two of us have black wives, and the third is married to a Mexican-American woman. In my small department at work, three of us (out of about a dozen) are in WM/BW marriages. Small individual examples, true, but from my perspective representative of what is happening out there in the world.
As to Siditty’s comments to me, yes, I see it when white shopkeepers follow my wife in a store. Yes, I note that, though only a tiny fraction of the population in my suburb is black, a disproportionately large number of police roadside stops involve black drivers. Yes, I am aware that there is a state of educational apartheid in the school districts of most major urban areas in the US. Yes, I have attempted to prepare my son and my daughter for the shock that they will feel the first time somebody calls them the “n” word. Yes, I have learned to braid my daughter’s hair and assure her that she is beautiful; and I support my son in all that he does, letting him know that he too is beautiful and can do anything he wants. Which is true; he’s a sweet, brilliant, wonderful young man. I would lay down my life and die for either of them.
As to the progress, or lack thereof, in America on racial issues, my experience has shown me that this is a spotty issue. What I mean by this is that there has been significant progress toward racial equality in some areas – or more specifically, with some individuals – and not with others. I agree with Siditty (and have posted here many times) that white liberal PC politics has tended to hinder progress rather than help it. It has made any mention of race a taboo, quashing honest discussion of race and replacing it with an uncomfortable silence within which abscesses of racism can fester and thrive.
There are milestones. I mentioned Obama’s candidacy because it is one. In the year I was born – 1960 – there is no way anything more than a tiny handful of white Americans would have supported a black man (or a half black man if that is significant to you for purposes of discussing this issue) for POTUS, no matter how strong a candidate he was. Now, in 2008, millions of white Americans are enthusiastically campaigning for a black POTUS. That change is significant. It is a bellwether of the direction in which America has been moving for the past 50 years. It is one of many.
I have had many open and frank discussions on this very issue with members of my black extended family, especially older members who do very painfully recall the days of Jim Crow, of returning to the US from honorably serving this country in the armed forces in WWII to taunts of “n,” being denied housing due to racial restrictive covenants, being denied university admission, etc. All of these older people have told me that, in their estimation, things in America have gotten much better in the past 50 years. None were stronger on this point than my wife’s grandmother, who lived until 96 and could recall from her childhood her own living ancestors who were freed slaves.
This goes to why I say that slavery and Jim Crow aren’t relevant. They certainly speak to the fact that America has history of brutal racism. They impact but do not define the times we live in now, in 2008. By analogy, the SCOTUS issued the Dred Scott opinion. It also issued decisions like Brown v. Board and Loving v. Virginia. Times change. I agree with Agabond’s recent post here about how a line of thinking can pass through generations and pollute a society, except I would add that this line of thinking becomes diluted as it passes through successive generations, eventually dissipating. I am not suggesting we are at the end of that process, though I am suggesting we have moved a significant distance through that process.
Once of the posters here mentioned something about America not offering to send its minorities back home, or something to that effect (though some racist Americans did raise that as an issue). True. At the same time, I’m not aware of another culture that has voluntarily taken steps to transform a disenfranchised, slave-caste minority into a full-fledged participating member of that culture. It’s a social experiment without documented precedent in human history.
Finally, the reason I chafe at the repeated use of “racism” to describe every injustice is that it is inaccurate. As I have noted repeatedly, injustice is a part of life. Agabond says that this “is the statement of a white racist,” but he is wrong. If things in this nation were truly equal, black people would still experience cruel injustice, just as white people do.
Equality will never equate with an end to injustice. Equality will be achieved when blacks and whites alike endure an equal level of injustice. Combating injustice is of course another important task of every individual, but as we know, there are evil people in the world and it appears to be the human condition that injustice will never be eliminated from human societies.
One night not long ago in San Francisco, a cop – a big, strong white man, about 250 lbs of weight lifter muscle – confronted an intoxicated woman – a petite white woman of about 100 lbs., on the streets near Chinatown. This cop was an asshole with a short temper, a big macho streak and a long history of brutality complaints in his file. He became irritated with this woman and twisted her arm behind her back until he broke it with a snap that was audible to the crowd of people that had gathered about. The cop later said that she was being unruly and he was trying to subdue her. However, in addition to his size and strength advantage, he had many non-lethal tools at his disposal – mace, pepper spray, taser, back-up, etc. Yet he chose instead to break her arm. This was not an act of racism, of “white on white racism,” or “color blind racism” as Agabond might say. “Racsim” is not the explanation for this act of injustice. The explanation is simpler than that: this cop is a bad man and he did an evil thing.
That’s the way life is. Sometimes good people have bad things done to them by scoundrels. This is not the statement of a “white racist.” This is the statement of a person who has been around the block more than a few times and has, on the journey, seen plenty of good people, as well as plenty of cruelty, evil and injustice.
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Blanc2 thanks for explaining your point of view in detail. I think for many people they will agree with some if not all of your points. Good post
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I look forward to reading it.
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Blanc2: Excellent comment.
I do not see racism behind every rock or in every bad thing done to black people. Like the number of black fathers who abandon their children. I am not going to blame white people for that. That is the doing of black men. Its damage to Black America is arguably worse than racism. Blacks are not saints or innocents.
But whereas blacks and even whites, I think, already know about all that, most whites seem like they are blind to their own racism.
And so when I see you and Stal try to explain away or downplay white racism it kind of drives me nuts. He lives in Harlem and you have a black family. That makes it impossible for you two to deny racism, but it does not keep you from downplaying it.
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Blanc2: “America is a racist country”. I stand by that all the way. It is not defeatist, it is merely the truth.
I think our experiences of America are a bit different. You have faith in the good-heartedness of white people, I do not. You feel the need to defend white people, I do not.
When you say “white people” you seem to be thinking of your friends and people you know in the small towns of the Midwest. When I say “white people” I am thinking in part about the New York police and the rich white people in Manhattan. The dog and his master. To call them “good-hearted” or “well-meaning” would do violence to those words.
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Blanc2:
I agree with the majority of your points, and felt that was a great post.
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“America has about another two more steps to go before racism is dead and gone and being black in America becomes no worse than being, say, Jewish.”
Become like Jews — in terms of intellectual achievement, law-abidingness etc. — and we’ll talk.
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And I’m not just being sarcastic. You live in (one of) the most open and tolerant societies on Earth and in history. Make the most of it.
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At first I thought you were just trying to bait me, but it seems you are serious.
For all that blacks have done for America – far more than the Jews – there is no way they deserve to be treated the way they are.
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I once lived in a part of New York where the police protected foreigners – foreigners!!! – better than black Americans, their own countrymen.
As it later turned out, some of those foreigners that the police were protecting so lovingly were making part of the bomb to blow up the World Trade Center.
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Meaning, they don’t deserve special privileges (“affirmative action” etc.) they currently enjoy? I couldn’t agree more.
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As for the foreigners — there should not be any significant Muslim presence in America, period. While the white and black America should find a modicum of civilized co-existence, the Muslims are an irredeemably hostile alien presence.
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I have heard that before about Muslims, that we tolerate them to our cost. I read it in Brigitte Gabriel’s book:
She is a Lebanese Christian who lived through the civil war and then came to America, but now sees the Muslims trying to do the same thing to America they did to Lebanon.
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People who think affirmative action is this terribly unfair thing are blind to how American society favours whites at each and every level, from schools to the police to everything.
Even with affirmative action, blacks still have to stay in school two years longer to make the same money as a white person.
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The system doesn’t favor whites, as whites. It favors merit.
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An in certain crucial areas, such as immigration policy and government hiring, actively discriminates against whites.
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nonserviam, you said:
“The system doesn’t favor whites, as whites. It favors merit.”
You must be pretty young or have lived a charmed life. Even among white people I cannot imagine anyone over 30 saying that with a straight face.
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nonserviam, you should read the post I put up yesterday if you have not already seen it:
Why whites are blind to their racism: https://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/07/02/why-whites-are-blind-to-their-racism/
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Well over 30, actually. And not particularly charmed — although as an American of foreign descent, I suppose I should feel lucky for having made it here. Which I do. And also grateful.
An outsider’s perspective may also be a clearer one, in a lot of cases. So, I’ve read that entry of yours, but I’m simply not buying it. You spread the definition of racism (a real enough evil) too thinly for it to retain any actual meaning.
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You are not buying what – that most whites are racist or that that they are blind to it?
You should explain what you mean about my definition of racism being too thin under the post so it can be part of the discussion there.
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I’m not buying either proposition.
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I read this whole post and dont know what to make of it. Im really trying to understand but I dont. Thanks abagond for conducting civil discourse without the hate and venom Im accustomed to hearing on these issues from your view point. I dont believe Im racist so I must fit the “blind to it” category. I believe that there is racism in this country but it comes in all colors. I married outside of my race and what i dont understand why her family hates me and all whites but my family loves her to death? ( she tells me this ) I personaly would be so bored if everyone looked like me. I love my wife not only for what we have in common ( alot ) but also for our differences.
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Everyone who has lived in America long enough is racist – or prejudiced as some call it. And some are worse than others. Of course there are black people who are more racist than white people and so on. But please remember whose racism affects the most people.
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if you are white and hate black you must hate your mon cause she love that black dick and will give everything to us just to get it by bkw = black kill white
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I’m not sure anyone is still reading this post, but I wanted to offer the idea that a way to improve race relations would be to teach every child, in school, about the contributions of Black people in all areas of American life.
Politicians: Barbara Jordan, Shirley Chisolm, Adam Clayton, Powel, etc.
Arists: Gordon Parks, James Baldwin, katherine Dunham, Alvin Ailey, Josephine Baker, etc.
Inventors: Elijah McCoy, William Hale, John Burr, Garrett Morgan, etc.
Medicine: Charles Drew, Ben Carson, Mae Jemison (also an astronaut), etc.
I could go on, but you get the idea
This would have a far-reaching positive impact on all races of people. It would build self esteem in Black children and a healthy respect in all others because they would have proof that the negative images they see on television don’t reflect most of us, as a people.
They would learn very quickly that their day-to-day existence has been made better by as many Black folks as any other race of people.
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Thanks. This pages still gets about 8 hits a day.
Yes, America needs to do way better on teaching black history – and from a black point of view.
One thought I had along these lines is a student exchange program: white students spend a year with a black family in a black neighbourhood and black students spend a year with a white family in a white neighbourhood.
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Snoop Dogg is not black? Huh, I thin that he and MILLIONS of other black people would disagree.
One thought I had along these lines is a student exchange program: white students spend a year with a black family in a black neighbourhood and black students spend a year with a white family in a white neighbourhood.
All that would do is cement that fact that black and white people have so little in common.
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Snoop Dogg, the man, is black. I am not disputing that. But many whites do not seem to understand that most blacks are not like Snoop Dogg, that he is putting on an act to fill his own pockets, that he is kissing up (down?) to their degraded picture of blacks because it pays well.
Mr Broadus is most certainly black. Mr Dogg is something else.
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Student exchange program:
For some it will give them a worse picture than they ever imagined. It depends on their experiences. But for most it would blast their eyes open and give them a far truer picture than anything they see on television.
The truth is not always pretty, but it is always better than lies.
Blacks and whites have way more in common than either side thinks.
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lacks and whites have way more in common than either side thinks.
Spend some time in the afrosphere and then go and discuss race topics with some whites and get their opinions on the issues and you will see how different the two groups are.
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I see your point.
I say “blacks and whites are more alike than they suspect”, but then over the past several months, when I have been getting comments from whites about race, I have found that they think far more differently than I suspected. They look at the world from a different set of experiences, assumptions and emotional investments. So much so that it is hard to get them to see and understand certain things. In fact, it is just what led me to write this post in the first place.
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I was referred to this site by a friend and while I’m very impressed w/ the scope of the topics and value the observations contained herein I am slightly pained by the perspective. I definitely agree with the person who stated that this post in particular is fairly narrow in scope and I commend the persons who included broader historical and global perspectives. I tend to groan anyway whenever I hear people talk about initiating “open and honest” conversations about race because more often than not these “discussions” are typically just people venting about the reoccurring symptoms instead of examining possible solutions. For me, its like going to a doctor who keeps telling you what your symptoms are but never gets around to prescribing any medication or giving you any preventative measures for the next visit. While venting is perfectly healthy and certainly understandable it’s not very constructive or fulfilling.
We have to get past all the noise about who did what to who (and how often and the date it started or ended, etc etc). You can quote statistics and articles all day long but in the end the only thing that has any real meaning or impact is perception. Like the old saying goes: Perception is reality. If one is lucky to live long enough, and travel far enough, one might finally obtain the expanse of knowledge and experience necessary to figure out what’s really going on but for the rest of us we’re doomed to limp along with the bits and pieces of data we can glean from millions of questionable sources. Ultimately, a discussion about racism is like a discussion about violence or political corruption. The question is not whether it exists, and/or to what extent, its how do we fight it?
Bottom line is this: Humanity is flawed. Since our inception we have built our civilizations and all its wonderful advancements upon the backs of our less fortunate brothers and sisters. Unless you completely rewire the Human psyche this is not going to change. I’ve often wondered what the oppressed truly want from their oppressors. Is it an admission of guilt, retribution, revenge, or God forbid, justice? Common sense should tell us that these people, our “oppresors”, will not just wake up one morning and realize they’ve gone about this thing all wrong for centuries and offer themselves up on an altar begging for the Mercy of the general population.
So with all that being said, the best we can hope for is to minimize the impact of mankind’s inherent weaknesses, and the responsibility for that has always been on the oppressed not the oppressors. We, the oppressed, have 3 basic options:
1.) Allow social change to continue to limp along at its own pace, making modest gains in some key areas while losing ground in others.
2.)Force a sudden and exceeding painful social shift through a violent revolution which is not an intelligent, attractive or likely proposition or however unlikely in might be
3.)Organize and unite, putting our differences aside and ignoring all those little hurts inflicted previously among our various factions, with the clearly defined goal of elevating our race as a whole
I think #3 is our only real option to accelerate social change. We saw something similar to this recently in China’s display at the Olympics. However flawed their policies and politics are, they were able to bring together tremendous resources on an incredibly grand scale to create a timeless moment in History. Whatever flaws it may have had it was an amazing leap forward for that Country at this time. We need to incite the same spirit here. We need the religious, political and civil minority groups to come together and focus on rehabbing one area or small pocket locations (NOLA would have been an excellent opportunity). I’d like to see us leverage the numbers and resources we do have to build a physical and social representation of what our hearts, our minds and our souls are truly capable of. Within the current framework, I firmly believe it’s only through this level of cooperation that we’ll be able to break down the doors and overcome the obstacles that have been placed in our path. Our success would be a resounding wake up call to every culture, creed and class reminding them of the potential encased in every Human’s heart and spirit. That would be a conversation truly worth having.
Just my 2 cents and 5 paragraphs…
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What a load of shit. ALL wrong, you stupid, liberal lunatic. There’s a Black president for fuck sake – and you still say most of America is racist? at what point would you admit it isn’t
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In response to SH’s comment:
Such wonderful language you use. I am a white person. People like you are an embarrassment to the white race.
Though it is a very great step towards improvement, a black president does not take away all of the racist history of our country.
The problem is, white people are in denial. Racism still exists and we still benefit from it (whether we intend to or not).
Educate yourself. Maybe read a REAL history book. Then tell me that all goes away in a day.
I do not think the intent of this article was to peg all white people as maliciously racist. I have honestly found that my experience as a middle-class white woman has been profoundly different from that of my black peers. I have been given far more leeway in life as a whole but never realized it until I took the time to compare my experience to that of another. It may not change the world, but at least you may know why the frustration still exists.
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Well said.
I have to admit that I thought maybe America was too racist to elect a black man as president. I am glad to be proved wrong.
But while it is a huge milestone in the history of race in America, it does not mean racism is pretty much over, despite what whites and some rich black people might like to think:
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Hello abagond,
I just came across this page via an indirect search, and I must say I’ve enjoyed reading this post and your overall blog.
On the subject of race and racism, I just feel it is a matter of education and intellectual honesty. Educating our young and instilling in them a quality of wanting to learn more as they grow as an individual. It’s all about arming yourself with knowledge, and it’s pretty funny how silly ignorance looks when you have a little knowledge.
I’m a 23 year old African American male. I attend college and am currently majoring in Criminal Justice. My favorite subject to read about is true crime, however when I’m not reading about that I try to read anything about my people, the history of my people, what happened to my people, who enslaved my people, the history of those slave owners and their mindsets. (Clarke said it best when he said that you have to know the history of your ‘master’ before you can know yourself, know their fears) I want to learn the strengths and weaknesses of my people and the resulting effects of what happened to my people.
Currently on my desk sits various books from the likes of Dubois, John Hendrik Clarke, and Sister Davis to name a few. This process of educating myself is lifelong. I grew up as an Army Brat in a middle class family. I was born in Ft. Knox, Kentucky. I lived in Frankfort, Germany for six years before living in Indianapolis, IN and Jackson, MS. I’ve had the chance to hang with crowds of varying racial and economic backgrounds.
Personally, I care not in educating whites. I may bring up something from history in debate or discorse, but it’s not up to me tell them that white supremacy still exists. My sister and I have a saying, “white people will be white people”. That is to say that for most of the time, they will act like they have always acted. (example: saying what they really want to say when it’s safe, aka no minorities or intended target is around. With the increase in the hispanic population, i’ve been around whites who would make certain jokes and actually think i’m ‘with them’) This is not an angry generalization. That comes from simply studying their cultures. Moreover, even the most genunine white person will not be as interested in our history as us. That right there is the big wall. They don’t wear the shoes, most of them will not fully grasp the scope and depth of the centuries of colonialism, slavery, and state sponsored institutionalized racism driven by the septic, diseased ideology known as White Supremacy..and the subsequent effects of such pure evil. Hell..a lot of people of color have not fully grasped that, so frankly it’s almost a waste of time educating whites. I would rather educated my lackadasical brothers and sisters, and collectively rise above the ignorance.
Most of everything happening currently is a product of history. Learn and know history! One of the great things about the Obama campagin is that it provided a platform to talk about race and racism. During the election I found my self having to educated my fellow college peers about the infamous ‘one drop rule’ and why Barack is considered black. It amzazed me that some were not aware of that, yet at the same time it’s not suprising when you consider how many folks (mostly white) live in that all comforting bubble.
In criminal justice, we learn that whenever you deal with humans, you deal with all that comes from the human brain, this means racism, sexism, biases ect..That means that in every single field known to man, you are bound to have good AND bad people. Because they are human..that’s why we have bad judges, corupt politicans and policeman, they are human. Now..when you consider something so powerful as an idealogy that says we are superior…well just because…then you don’t have to be that bright to know that something like that doesn’t fade away so easily. White Supremacy (in discourse I pretty much subsitute this for racism. You mine as well just call it out, the racism we know of from this country didn’t come from African Supremacy, Native American Supremacy, or Asian Supremacy, it came from White Supremacy) is an *all-pervading* system that touches every walk of life.
It took centures to mold us into who we are. And it will take more centures to further heal of the original sins of this country. I LOL and tell whites all the time that I wise race didn’t matter too! I’m sure the indengenious tribes of america and africans of centures past wish race didn’t matter as well, but it obviously did and we have to deal with the blowback from all that crap.
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@Perfect Flaw
I agree completely!
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“Ok. What about Black racism towards the latin community. Towards the asian community? Even the term Black and White, which was created by elitist lawmakers, makes me sick. Neither of these are a race.”
You know…many Blacks and Asians make up the Latin community. So are you talking about African Americans? Or Blacks in general?
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Most people look down on people who are different. I don’t think it’s just whites.
Snoop Dogg isn’t “really black”? So who qualifies to be “really black”? Can you please tell me so I can have a better understanding of it, O Supreme Arbiter of Blackness?
(P.S. Is it still being racist if the person isn’t “really black”???? Do people who aren’t “really black” deserve the same treatment as people who are “really black”???? Are there also people who are “really asian” and people who are “really white?? AND HOW CAN I TELL THE DIFFERENCE????????)
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PYANO
Why don’t people like YOU try NOT to look down on people regardless of what race they “really are”? And for your info Snoop dogg is 71% black the same as most AA. Dont worry about telling the difference stupid just treat everyone with equally and with respect.
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Pyano:
Of course Snoop Dogg is black. I said that in the post. The point is that he plays out a stereotyped blackness for the entertainment of white people – just as Al Jolson and Stepin Fetchit once did.
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Hi
I just wanted to say I enjoy reading your blog. Very interesting and astute insights.
I am an Asian-American female so def have come up against racism in corporate America and in my social life. Racism is here to stay and I don’t feel it’s limited to whites only. I’ve encountered racism from all races including amongst Asians. I do think to be non-white in America we as minorities have to sing to the Whites tunes more and conform to their rules as they have the power and set the standards here.
It is frustrating but it is the price to pay for being a minority in any culture. My only gripe is the sense of entitlement Whites take with them when they visit other cultures. I used to live in Asia where some Asians are naive and worship the Whites more than their own kind. So the Whites would not adjust to a different culture and look down on Asians as they didn’t experience racism in Asia. For example, some job ads would say Whites only apply for English teaching jobs. So that would exclude an Asian American who graduated from Harvard but a White Frenchman with only a high school degree could apply to teach English. Then I would hear White expats complain all day long how Asia sucks. Well if they hate it so much go back to your perfect world. No one in Asia made them live there. If things are so great back in White World why did they leave??
I cannot expect equal treatment in my lifetime in America but I do know that I can return to Asia if ever it gets too tough to live in America. Especially since China is developing economically. I only hope Africa could develop economically so that African Americans do not have to rely on the somewhat tolerances of whites. But African Americans have really come a long way in US history tho thru blood, sweat and tears sadly. It’s a catch 22 with racism. There are days where I feel it affects my well being but at tge same time I believe deep down we could all be potential racists if we were part of the majority in power. Not trying to discount your views.
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@aviausa
Thank you for popping in here. It is always nice to see a fresh voice. 🙂
But I just noticed a couple things.
When you see this kind of ad in Asia, it was most likely *NOT* created by a white person. Asians in Asia often use this as a marketing tool to attract more students. A “white” face speaking English seems more authentic than an Asian one, regardless of the actual proficiency. Although this kind of racism appears to benefit whites and penalize Asians (even those who were born and raised and educated in English speaking countries), it is not necessarily a racist behavior that is performed by whites and it is not really good for anyone. Instead of merely pointing out how a racist behavior benefits whites overseas, you might also want to consider simply pointing it out as a racist behavior period. In this case, I condemn the marketing people more than the whites who are benefiting from the racist preference.
It might be a relief for some Americans to hear that other areas of the world might be experiencing economic growth, and that they too might consider relocating overseas to seek their livelihood. This option is technically open to everyone, whites, blacks and Asians included.
You view Asia (or perhaps China) as your region of origin, and it sounds like you see it as “returning” home or something like that. I am sure that you are aware that, for the vast majority of Asian-Americans, the USA is the only home that they have ever known, and they do not have the option of simply “returning” to another place of origin. In many cases, they got cut off from their grandparents and their education in the USA replaced and white-washed any connection they might have had. In fact, contrary to what many African-Americans believe, Asian-Americans might be even much more cutoff from their immediate ancestors than blacks (who can often point to several hundred years of history in the USA). I don’t want to lead any reader to get the impression that Asian-Americans can “return home” if they want. This is not an option for the majority of them.
Having said that, it can sometimes benefit some native USA-born Asian-Americans to go to Asia — in some areas they can attain success where it is NOT available in the USA (esp. in the entertainment field or modelling field). A good example of this would be Wang Lee Hom.
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To be fair, economic problems and racism aren’t necessarily juxtaposed to one another. In fact, in historical (and modern) Japan and Korea, historical economic position has been used as a front for that very racism (tanned Koreans being called ‘primitive’ or ‘savage’ by white Koreans because tanned skin indicates a working-class historical background of life under the sun).
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And I guess the economic hungering of the European states after Columbus, and subsequently most of naval Europe’s invasion of the Americas, contributed largely to the modern racism of the past few centuries as excuse for the horrors that were the transatlantic slave-trade and the scramble for Africa.
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You know what white people should know? That their actions speak louder than words.
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All white, became black?!! Honey you need to go back and do some more research! You are so off base. I bet your white yourself?!! Please research your material before u set it to print!!!
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