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black rape statistics

The use of black rape statistics is a common white racist argument. It seeks to prove that black men have a dark and savage nature by showing that they rape women at vastly higher rates than white men. The beauty of the argument is that few whites question it because it plays on two stereotypes they have about black men: they are violent and they have stronger sex drives that they cannot control.

First, as black crime goes rape is rare. Here are the top ten crimes committed by blacks in America according to FBI numbers on arrests made in 2007:

  1. 485,054 Drug abuse violations
  2. 261,730 Larceny, theft
  3. 316,217 Assault (non-aggravated)
  4. 183,810 Disorderly conduct
  5. 109,985 Aggravated assault
  6. 97,472 Driving under the influence
  7. 68,052 Burglary
  8. 62,278 Drunkenness
  9. 57,745 Weapons; carrying, possessing, etc.
  10. 54,774 Robbery

Forcible rape was not even close to making this list: there were only 5,708 arrests.

Second, white men are a far bigger threat. Despite the racism of the police and the stereotypes about black rapists, the police still arrest twice as many white men for rape.

Going by the stereotypes, you would expect whiter countries to be safer. Wrong. Despite the millions of black men in America, women are way safer there than in Canada and Australia, where rape is more than twice as common.

So where are the statistics that show black men are such dangerous rapists? It comes from comparing not all rapes but just interracial rapes. Comments like this often appear on this blog:

Fact – blacks rape white women 2000 (yes 2000) times more than whites rape black women. In New York City, about 300 white women are raped by blacks every year BUT there has not been a black woman raped by a white male in anybody’s memory (going back over 20 yrs.) Consider: Al Sharpton had to go upstate New York to find a hoax and that was almost 20 years ago. (Source NYT 4/22/05)

That looks solid: the New York Times said so! Except that it did not: there is no such article.

I looked up the numbers for myself:

The FBI does not break out numbers for interracial rape but the Justice Department does for “rape and sexual assault” – based on a crime victim survey it does every year. But interracial rape is so rare that there are fewer than ten cases in its sample. So you cannot draw any firm statistical conclusions.

On television rape is a dark-alley crime, but in fact strangers commit only 2% of rapes. Half are done by current or former boyfriends, dates and husbands. Interracial rape is rare for the same reasons that interracial marriage is rare. So rare that there are not even solid government figures on it.

But better numbers would not help: after all, if you applied the same reasoning to numbers on marriage it would “prove” that black men are by nature also more likely to marry.

The argument is built not on sound reasoning and solid facts but on white fears that go back at least to Jim Crow times.

See also:

821 Responses

  1. Sometimes one has to question and ask the reason why (then think) to what end and purposes things
    are constructed the way they are??

    Living in the UK, can I ask someone here to inform me (and for others who may also be interested), if all crimes in the U.S. are broken down by the FBI and/or other agencies into race and/or ethnicity??


  2. This comes as no surprise to me.


  3. I would not read much into the FBI not breaking down rape by race: it has no trouble doing it for murder.


  4. The Justice Department in its crime victim survey has dozens of tables breaking down different crimes not just by race but also age, sex, income and even marital status.


  5. Everytime I hear people cite the so called black rape crime statistics, I just laugh.


  6. I didn’t know about this stereotype, but frankly, it makes sense. White people are scared of blacks (because of the stereotypes). There’s also “pure white woman” stereotype or whatever is called. Plus, don’t forget that people see only what they want to see. So a white man raping a white woman is seen as a sick individual. A black man raping a white woman is seen as… a black man. :( It seems that 100 white rapists are individuals, but one black rapist is a proof blacks are violent, oversexed creatures.


  7. I mean, it’s not that 100 white rapists are not individuals, but that’s not the point… Hope you get what I’m saying.


  8. on Wed 7 Apr 2010 at 19:09:13 Ó Dochartaigh

    Abagond

    I don’t know if you read those links I gave you, but this stereotype became hugely popular because of drug prohibition. Back in the day the government would say black men would smoke reefer or do coke, and go on a sexual rampage. It worked very well to scare white people out of doing drugs. There were major corporations at that time losing money to hemp and Marijuana products, so they used reefer madness and racism to outlaw both.


  9. Surprised? Hardly. The fear of black men is so woven in this society that it’s become acceptable to believe the myths rather than listen to facts.


  10. We should here from the trolls soon enough!


  11. O’ Dochartaigh –

    The whole F&*^*^ system is screwed up. How is it a person can get busted with a reasonable amount of “reefer”, get several years in jail, while a wealthy financial investor steals more than $500 M I L L I O N Dollars, gets sentences to 10 years, will probablly do 3 on a plea bargain…. and still get to keep the money!!!??? (obviously its been laundered and hidden away somewhere.)

    *There is a case currently going on down here in Miami. I’ll try to find the link…


  12. Excellent post, abagond, and great breakdown of commonly-cited bullsh1t stats, detailing where they come from.


  13. Thank you for posting this. Once that nut job David Duke said that 40,000 White women a year get raped by Black men.

    It’s like everybody believed this bs. 40,000/yr. That is a freaking epidemic. Even if that was true. What does that say about White mens ability to protect “his” women.

    It doesn’t add up.

    Anyway. Good post.


  14. Color of Luv:

    No, please DO NOT dig up that LINK.

    This post is about BLACK RAPE STATISTICS. So please stick to THAT.

    Black rape statistics have been used repeatedly on this blog to derail other threads. So now that I write a post on it – long in coming – YOU are NOT going to derail it too.

    When I talked about drug violence it was derailed into rape. Now that I am talking about rape you want to talk about what? Drug laws. O.D. is leaning in that direction too.

    So you can stop it right now.


  15. One question: does that so-called “rape statistic” records victims’ race? Because I get the feeling it’s mainly about white women being raped by violentblackmen, NOT about black women. I might be mistaken here, though (like I said, I never heard of it (rape statistic) before).


  16. on Wed 7 Apr 2010 at 20:42:30 Ó Dochartaigh

    Abagond

    I definitely don’t want to derail, just thought I would give the readers some history on this subject and how it became so popular so quickly. The black rape argument was pushed by the government, and white people ate it up.


  17. Mira:

    You made a good point earlier: when blacks do something bad it is “because they are black”. When whites do the very same thing, they are “individuals”. So their crimes are almost never framed as “white” as they are on the blog White Watch:

    http://whitewatch.wordpress.com/


  18. Mira,

    America prefers to believe that only white women get raped. Women of color get raped too, but are far less likely to report it. In fact, many rapes (esp. of women of color) go unreported.


  19. on Wed 7 Apr 2010 at 20:46:13 Ó Dochartaigh

    Ankhesen

    Why is that


  20. I guess it all goes with “white being neutral and default”. But it’s worse than that, I guess. It all goes with portraying blacks as criminals (because they’re black). Well, there are black criminals, but they are individuals (if white criminals are, so are blacks), so saying “black man did it” doesn’t explain anything. It’s just common sense I guess. It’s simply not fair to do this, the government, politicians, police, Hollywood, ordinary people AND to claim America is the best, most fair or democratic place on Earth to live.


  21. ColorofLuv, it would be more on topic if you posted that linked under the post “black crime statistics.”


  22. *link


  23. My previous comment was answer to Abagond.

    America prefers to believe that only white women get raped. Women of color get raped too, but are far less likely to report it. In fact, many rapes (esp. of women of color) go unreported.

    Thanks for your answer. So, it’s basically white women “we” care about? Is it really that simple?


  24. reported rape= actual rape?


  25. Mira:

    The FBI does not break out rape statistics by race, like they do for murder.

    The Justice Department, however, does a crime survey every year where they ask a random sample of Americans about what crimes they have experienced during the past year – regardless of whether or not the police did anything.

    In that survey they do ask about the race of the victim and the rapist. But in their sample there are fewer than ten rapes in which blacks took any part at all (but there are more than ten white-on-white rapes).

    If you take small, statistically insignificant numbers and extend them to the whole country, you can get wild numbers, the kind that David Duke, Pat Buchanan and trolls use, the kind quoted above, the kind you see on Stormfront.

    But you can use the very same numbers to “prove” that white men are more likely to rape women then black men, that black men rape four times more white women than black women. But no one points that out.

    The numbers are not solid enough to say what Duke and others say – and can be used to say other wild things too that they never say.


  26. If 40,000 white women were in fact being raped by black men that would make rape almost as common as robbery – which does not seem right. Further if it was that high whites would never stand for it. It would be painstakingly documented. It would not have to be backed up by mythical New York Times articles.

    Crime is as high in America as it is in part because those who run things do not care when bad things happen to black people. Because it is happening to “them” not “us”.


  27. Thanks for additional info. From what I can see, racist use unscientific methods to prove their point. I never visited Stormfront (but I can imagine what’s out there), but it doesn’t really matter- it’s not Stormfront that is important. If majority of (white) people and (white) institutions buy this stereotype, there’s a problems.

    Also, what about white rapists? It does seem there are enough of them (and also, serial killers tend to be white)- but you warned against derailing the topic so I won’t go into it. Still, it is clear there are white rapists, and I’m not saying people don’t pay attention on them, but I get the feeling they are, indeed, treated like individual “bad people”, never “they rape because they are white”. (I’m not saying they do rape because they’re white, but saying blacks do is unfair and racist).


  28. Sorry, non scientific methods.


  29. @Abagond,

    Natasha W. is right. If you want to move my post over to “Black Crime Statistics”, it would be better suited there.

    Thanks


  30. If 40,000 white women were in fact being raped by black men that would make rape almost as common as robbery – which does not seem right. Further if it was that high whites would never stand for it. It would be painstakingly documented. It would not have to be backed up by mythical New York Times articles.

    Well, the only logical explanation- except from blatant racism- would be that white women don’t report those rapes (made by blacks) to the police or The Justice Department, but they chose to report to New York Times. NOT LIKELY!

    Crime is as high in America as it is in part because those who run things do not care when bad things happen to black people. Because it is happening to “them” not “us”.

    I agree. I don’t really know how bad the things are since I’ve never been in America, but whenever you label someone “other” (as the opposite of “us”), AND the power is in your hand, nasty things happen. And in most of the cases, those who have power don’t really care.


  31. Abagond, have you read ‘Soul on Ice’ by Eldridge Cleaver? In it, Cleaver describes what has been called a ‘rape ideology': a way to deal with the love / hate relationship with the white woman by raping as many of them as he can, a way of living which Cleaver regrets later in his life. This book, written in the Sixties, might have contributed to the stereotype involuntarily, I guess.


  32. Abagond:

    A few corrections:

    ” But interracial rape is so rare that there are fewer than ten cases in its sample. So you cannot draw any firm statistical conclusions.”

    No… for one year 2005 White on Black interracial rape fell below 10 cases. But take 10 year rolling average and you will see there were more than 10 cases found by the DOJ for White on Black rape albeit it’s pretty low. Black on White rape statistics are higher for every year.

    “Second, white men are a far bigger threat. Despite the racism of the police and the stereotypes about black rapists, the police still arrest twice as many white men for rape.”

    Arrest records are not broken out for ethnicity. (at least not the ones I have seen from the FBI.. you may be citing a different source…) Hispanics are frequently (more 90%) lumped in together with Whites. The rate of Hispanics in prison per capita is 2.4 times higher than for Non-Hispanic Whites. Some of this could be explained by socio-economic issues as well as the average age for each group. The average age for Hispanics in the US is 27, the average age for Non-Hispanic Whites is 40.

    For example:

    http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/fugitives/ravelo_e.htm

    Place of Birth: Mexico Eyes: Brown
    Build: Medium Race: White (Hispanic)
    Occupation: Unknown Nationality: Mexican

    Is the man I linked above White..?

    Now for some good news… violent crime against all races and ethnicities has dropped dramatically in the last 16 years. There are 70% fewer violent crimes committed against Blacks since 1993:

    http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/bvvc.pdf

    and the gap for victimization against all groups is narrowing.


  33. I never heard of white watch before. There are some sick news out there (well, all of them are). As I understand, they just take the real life crimes and label criminals as white, which others, I assume, don’t do.


  34. @ Mira,

    No, no…White Watch just takes the news stories AS IS and posts them (occasionally with some additional commentary of course). There’s no “framing”; the blog is very honest about its purpose and method: it focuses on crimes committed by whites worldwide which don’t usually get much attention, esp. in America, because the American media hesitates to pick and part and lengthily analyze white dysfunction.

    Dysfunction of color, however, is always up for grabs in America.


  35. To Abagond:

    On television rape is a dark-alley crime, but in fact strangers commit only 2% of rapes.

    No… for all races it is sizable 34% per table 27 of the PDF linked below.

    http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/cvus0502.pdf

    For Whites specifically it is 42.7%:

    See table 30:

    http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/cvus0502.pdf

    Perceive race of the offender (for sexual assault) see table 40

    http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/cvus0502.pdf

    White 32.8 %
    Black 48.5%
    Other 15.4 %
    Not available/Not Known 3.2%

    For multiple years check out this link:

    http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbtp&tid=3


  36. Melanin is just spooking these people!

    Well the melanin is Asian Indians doesn’t spook these people.


  37. To Joe Clyde:

    Thank you for posting this. Once that nut job David Duke said that 40,000 White women a year get raped by Black men.

    It’s like everybody believed this bs. 40,000/yr. That is a freaking epidemic.

    Well looking at the DOJ data.. I’d say that’s fairly accurate:
    See table 42

    http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/cvus0502.pdf

    For other years:

    http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbtp&tid=3


  38. My post above should read:
    Melanin is just spooking these people!

    Well the melanin in Asian Indians generally doesn’t spook these people.


  39. Now we come across some of the problems of the DOJ survey, in 2005, the perceived race of the offender for sexual assault for Blacks was 48.5% (Whites were 32.8%)

    From 2005 – Perceive race of the offender (for sexual assault) see table 40

    http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/cvus0502.pdf

    White 32.8 %
    Black 48.5%
    Other 15.4 %
    Not available/Not Known 3.2%

    Whereas in 2006 the numbers are very different
    48.8% for Whites
    and 18.8% for Blacks.

    From 2006
    See table 40

    http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/cvus06.pdf

    Therein lies the problem of taking data from only one year, that and the survey is rife with less than 10 samples.


  40. Doesn’t everyone know that Black women can’t be raped, so those convicted must be raping white women? Even when a 13 year old is gang raped its her fault and the Tawana Brawley incident will exonerate white men forever.


  41. To Hathor:

    Doesn’t everyone know that Black women can’t be raped, so those convicted must be raping white women?

    No clearly from the DOJ statistics Black women are raped at a substantially higher rate than White women. In those cases the large majority of the perpetrators are Black men.

    Even when a 13 year old is gang raped its her fault
    Are you joking..?


  42. Uncle Milton,

    Clearly, I was not speaking of statistics.

    It was many years ago, but basically that is what happened to that 13 year old. I thought that thinking had stopped until I saw how Tawana Brawley was and still is vilified. She was 15 and it was never considered that she was troubled teenager, that dug herself a hole she couldn’t get out off. She became the slut, whore of Armageddon, and representative of the destruction of white male purity. Otherwise, why would her name even come up when the Duke Lacrosse team was accused of rape.

    During my time rape was a capital offense and as a child I heard a story in which a white woman cried rape, because she was caught with a Black man. Of course I heard it from the Black side, but I never knew the outcome of the trial, whether it was the death penalty or prison. It didn’t matter if she was believed or not. When that happens now, there is no outrage as with Crystal Magnum. There have been several instances involving sports teams which were mostly Black where, the white woman had falsely accused one of team. But just as in rape, she’s just a misguided individual.

    And to make things a little clearer, there is nothing as disconcerting as to hear a judge tell you that you do not have enough injuries to look like you have been raped.


  43. To Hathor:
    And to make things a little clearer, there is nothing as disconcerting as to hear a judge tell you that you do not have enough injuries to look like you have been raped.

    Who or what case are you talking about..?


  44. To Hathor:

    Clearly, I was not speaking of statistics.

    Here’s what you said:
    Doesn’t everyone know that Black women can’t be raped, so those convicted must be raping white women?

    You can joke or make wisecracks all you want I suppose.. .I’ll reply with data. since that’s the theme of the thread.


  45. Uncle Milton,

    Let me be clear, I don’t joke about rape.

    I was the person in front of that judge.

    If you could see beyond the statistics, which you so much want to believe, I was merely describing the attitudes that one has, which lead to misuse of statistics, That is something many people have trouble with. I see this all too often on blogs.

    Let’s say that the population of America is 300 million and Blacks are 12 percent. That would mean there are 36 million blacks.

    So tell me how 37percent of 264million is less than 48percent of 36million?

    Innumeracy is the basis of your belief system.


  46. To Hathor:

    I was the person in front of that judge.

    I am very sorry to hear that.

    If you could see beyond the statistics, which you so much want to believe..

    Why do you say I want to believe them..? Some of the information that Abagond posted was incorrect (at least if he citing the sources I think he was citing…) You can look at my links if you wish. Also, f you look through my posts, you’ll see that I make a note that the statistics, are not cut and dry.

    So tell me how 37percent of 264million is less than 48percent of 36million?

    Here’s my post that you were probably referring to:

    http://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/04/03/black-rape-statistics/#comment-46532

    As I noted before
    1) the numbers for 2005 and 2006 are very different.
    2) This is a survey of crime victims not arrests or convictions
    3) The percentages are based upon the perceived race of the attackers.

    Here are the numbers:
    [This is for single offenders so it does include gang rapes..)
    (Single Offender) Total Rapes/Sexual assault/a 160,270

    http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/cvus0502.pdf

    See Table 40

    Perceived race of attacker
    White 32.8% – White Rapists 52568
    Black 48.5% – Black Rapists 77730
    Other 15.4% – Other 24681
    Not known/ Unavailable 3.2 %

    It is not clear if White (victims or offenders..) include Hispanics. For arrests the FBI generally lumps Hispanics in with Whites.

    The picture for 2006 is radically different:
    See table 40

    http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/cvus06.pdf

    [This is for single offenders so it does include gang rapes..)
    (Single Offender) Total Rapes/Sexual assault/a 222,400
    White 48.8 % – White Rapists 108531
    Black 18.1% – Black Rapists 40254
    Other 16.2% – Other 36028
    Not Known/Not available 17.0%

    Once again it is not clear if White (victims or offenders..) include Hispanics. For arrests the FBI generally lumps Hispanics in with Whites.

    As I suggested to Abagond before the DOJ Crime survey is a very rough guide to crime victimization and it would be best to look at the averages over a 10 year period of time.


  47. To Hathor:
    So tell me how 37percent of 264million is less than 48percent of 36million?

    I didn’t say that.. I have responded but for some reason the post is awaiting moderation perhaps because of all the links. Simply put the percentages (from the DOJ crime survey..) vary widely from year to year and are based upon the perceived offenders race. If there are 200,000 rapists reported in a given and 130,000 are White and 50,000 of them are Black and 20,000 of the are other then the numbers would be:

    White 65%
    Black 25%
    Other 10%

    And does have to do with the total population in the US. If however you are talking about the percentage of rapists in a given year within a population group then the overall numbers become relevant.


  48. This paragraph in the previous post:

    “And does have to do with the total population in the US. If however you are talking about the percentage of rapists in a given year within a population group then the overall numbers become relevant.”

    Should read as:

    “And this does not have to do with the total population in the US. If however you are talking about the percentage of rapists in a given year within a population group then the overall numbers of various racial groups become relevant.”


  49. Well, anecdotally, the various kinds of sexual boundary pushing I’ve gotten from men (including the one forcible groping) have been lopsidedly skewed toward white men, so it didn’t surprise me to learn that a large majority of rape is intraracial. It just convinces me all the more that the feminist argument about rape being a crime that’s about power rather than lust or misunderstanding is right. Rape is a matter of predatory men going after whoever they think they can get away with attacking, which, if you’re a white woman, probably means white men attacking you rather than black men.

    On Soul on Ice, and Eldridge Cleaver, I remember reading part of that book as a teenager, and not being able to bring myself to read further, once I got to the part where he talked about raping white women. Years later, after he’d gone through a major ideology change, a friend of mine went off to some gathering of, I think, people who had formerly been associated with the Unification Church, and came back saying she’d met Eldridge Cleaver there and he’d hit on her; I remember thinking that wouldn’t be an approach to inspire confidence. But of course the whole black rapist stereotype way predates that book.

    Less anecdotally, here’s a link to a page discussing a study of people exonerated of crimes of which they’d been previously convicted: http://www.truthinjustice.org/exoneration-study.htm

    Some 90 percent of false convictions in the rape cases involved misidentification by witnesses, very often across races. In particular, the study said black men made up a disproportionate number of exonerated rape defendants.

    The racial mix of those exonerated, in general, mirrored that of the prison population, and the mix of those exonerated of murder mirrored the mix of those convicted of murder. But while 29 percent of those in prison for rape are black, 65 percent of those exonerated of the crime are.

    Interracial rapes are, moreover, uncommon. Rapes of white women by black men, for instance, represent less than 10 percent of all rapes, according to the Justice Department. But in half of the rape exonerations where racial data was available, black men were falsely convicted of raping white women.


  50. To Lynn Gazis-Sax:

    On Soul on Ice, and Eldridge Cleaver, I remember reading part of that book as a teenager, and not being able to bring myself to read further, once I got to the part where he talked about raping white women.

    As I remember, in the book, Eldridge Cleaver said he “practiced” by raping a Black woman first.

    Interracial rapes are, moreover, uncommon. Rapes of white women by black men, for instance, represent less than 10 percent of all rapes, according to the Justice Department.

    The author is referring to the DOJ surveys which are all over the map for rape. For the year 1999 Black on White rape is listed as only 7% for the rapes of White women. For 2005 it jumps to 34%. Supposedly every year they survey 135,000 people but often they have categories where they say they received less than 10 samples. Such figures would suggest that at best the survey is a rough guide and individual years should not be quoted as valid statistics.

    You can check here:

    http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbtp&tid=3

    Table 42 is the one with White/White Black/Black White/Black Black/White rape stats.


  51. I am so over the black rap stats argument it has been used so much. Most rape is intrracial meaning that white women are more likely to get raped by a white man. And you are more likely to be raped by somebody you know than some seedy looking stragner in a dark alley watch a Lifetime movie.

    Whoever posted the black girls are blamed for their own rape is nothing new it’s been going on since slavery and ties into the jezebel sterotype. The website What About Our Daughters is a perfect example

    http://www.whataboutourdaughters.com/2010/04/rowan-towers-i-am-at-a-loss-about-what-i-can-do-to-stop-this-war-on-black-girls/


  52. Uncle Milton,

    You see how easily it is to redefine the statistic.


  53. Hey Aba,

    Great post once again:)

    You said that ‘Interracial rape is rare for the same reasons that interracial marriage is rare.’ Could you please elaborate on that?

    Thanks and peace.


  54. Aiyo,

    Thanks for the article. I’m posting it now.


  55. on Thu 8 Apr 2010 at 12:40:01 Menelik Charles

    Question for everyone:

    where’s no_slappz when you need him? This is surely his territory lol

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  56. abagond,

    Nicely evasive post. Following are some things known about rape in the US. I omitted redundant “facts”. Moreover, each item also included a reference to supporting research. In the interest of space, I omitted them, but the link is here:

    http://www.feminist.com/antiviolence/facts.html

    All research on rape points to numbers similar to those included below. Key point — Inasmuch as almost two-thirds of women who report being raped are raped by someone they know, the race of the attacker is no mystery. Meanwhile, it appears hispanics are identified as “white.”

    U.S. STATISTICS

    Fact #2: 64% of women who reported being raped, physically assaulted, and/or stalked since age 18 were victimized by a current or former husband, cohabiting partner, boyfriend, or date.

    Fact #4: The FBI estimates that only 37% of all rapes are reported to the police. U.S. Justice Department statistics are even lower, with only 26% of all rapes or attempted rapes being reported to law enforcement officials.

    Fact #14: According to the National Crime Victimization Survey, more than 260,000 rapes or sexual assaults occurred in 2000.

    Fact #16: More than half of all rapes of women occur before age 18; 22% occur before age 12.

    Fact #18: About 81% of rape victims are white; 18% are black; 1% are of other races. (Violence Against Women, Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1994.)

    Fact #19: About half of all rape victims are in the lowest third of income distribution; half are in the upper two-thirds.

    Fact #20: According to the Youth Risk Behavior Surveillance Survey (YRBSS), a national survey of high school students, 8% of students had been forced to have sexual intercourse when they did not want to. Overall, black students (10%) were significantly more likely than white students (7%) to have been forced to have sexual intercourse.


  57. on Thu 8 Apr 2010 at 13:09:00 Menelik Charles

    oops, there he is lol

    menelik charles
    london england


  58. abagond,

    Here’s a little more to chew on. I omitted most non-rape information. From the Department of Justice:

    Non-lethal violent crime in the US — 2008

    Law enforcement agencies made 2,487 arrests for forcible rape…The following table presents the racial demographics of these non-lethal violent crimes in the United States for 2008:

    Rape
    White 65.2%
    Black 32.2%

    White Americans were arrested more than any other race for non-lethal violent crimes in 2008, making up 58% of all arrests. White Americans, constituting approximately 79% of the total population, were significantly underrepresented in the total arrests made.

    Asian Americans and Pacific Islander Americans, constituting approximately 4% of the total population, were also significantly underrepresented, making up only 1% of total arrests.

    African Americans were significantly over-represented for non-lethal violent crimes in 2008, making up 39% of all arrests.

    The following table presents the racial and ethnic demographics of non-lethal violent crime victimization per 1000 persons age 12 or older in 2008

    Rape
    White — 0.6
    Black — 1.9
    Hispanic — 0.6

    Any way you slice the data, it is clear that blacks are more rape-prone than whites.


  59. hathor,

    Tawana Brawley was NOT raped. She perpetrated a hoax with the help of Al Sharpton, Vernon Mason and Alton Maddox. Every statement she made to the police was a lie, and her lie was perpetuated by black opportunists who maliciously libeled Steve Pagones, a local DA.

    She deserves no sympathy and should have faced a prison sentence for her actions. However, because she was 15 at the time she participated in the hoax, she got a free pass.

    Crystal Mangum is another liar. As medical tests showed, there was sperm in her vagina, from many sources, but it seems to have been provided by everyone in North Carolina except the Duke lacrosse team.


  60. ah yes… the good ole’ rape argument


  61. No Slappz:

    Please give the source for your numbers, like a working link.


  62. abagond,

    I included a link in my first post on this topic. With respect to my second post, the information came from here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States

    The data I selected was taken from Department of Justice reports that were listed in the article footnotes.

    Somewhere I have a book — a sociological study — of rape in black society. The title mentions “silence”, and the book looks into why black women under-report this crime.


  63. abagond,

    From reading your post on rape, it is clear you are NOT a numbers guy.

    If you understood numbers, you would see that virtually every statement you made points to blacks committing rape at a far higher rate than whites.

    By the way, reliable rape statistics are not available from most black countries simply because the data collection is haphazard and the crime is defined differently.

    Moreover, in muslim countries, men are legally empowered to abuse their wives in ways that would get them arrested for rape in the US. Thus, by virtue of muslim law, it is not possible for a muslim man to rape his wife. She has no right to refuse her husband.

    As far as the realities for women living in rape-ocracies goes, the one offering the most reliable statistics is South Africa.

    However, the country in which being a women means rape is part of life is Congo. It is fair to say that Congo is the site of an ongoing rape holocaust.


  64. @Uncle Milton: I’ve poked around the DOJ web site before looking at racial breakdowns in crime statistics, though not specifically the ones about rape. (When I last looked, I was more looking for stats around the net, theirs and others, to see what I could conclude about what degree of racial bias was or wasn’t present in the criminal justice system. FWIW, I came to the conclusion that the degree of racial bias seems to be highly variable by type of crime.) It’s true, of course, that any one year may not be representative, and you get more reliability by looking at a range of years. Likewise, any one study of crime (like the one on exoneration that I cited) has to be placed in perspective by comparison with other studies.

    However, pretty much all of the statistics I’ve seen on rape that look to be done by any remotely reliable researcher do point toward most rape being intraracial, and to a very large proportion of rape being acquaintance rather than stranger rape (which probably goes a good ways toward explaining why most of it is intraracial).

    @no_slappz: However, the country in which being a women means rape is part of life is Congo. It is fair to say that Congo is the site of an ongoing rape holocaust.

    Ongoing armed conflict tends to be associated with higher rape rates in many parts of the world. See, for instance, Susan Brownmiller’s Against Our Will on the association between rape and war. I sure wouldn’t want someone concluding that people in the Balkans are rape prone because of what happened in Bosnia, and likewise I don’t think events in the DRC are representative of how rape prone black men are.


  65. Don’t forget that official rape statistics do not count prison rapes, which are mostly black-on-white. As so many Black males, especially from their twenties to their forties, are incarcerated, they cannot be on the streets endangering women (of any color).

    You could reduce the number of Blacks in prison until it corresponds to the percentage of Whites who are incarcerated.

    But then the out-of-prison a.k.a. “official” rape statistics would skyrocket.


  66. The Black compulsive rapist stereotype is definitely closely linked to the ongoing stereotype about black male and “uncontrollable sexuality”. Notice how no matter how many Lettermans, Clintons or Spitzers exists, when we discuss Black men who cheat their Blackness is always a factor.


  67. no_slappz,

    You have proved my point.

    Why is it that you think, I don’t know the facts.

    Let me say one other thing.

    There is no such thing as a Black child, either.


  68. hathor,

    You comments suggest you believe Tawana Brawley was attacked and raped by white men, and that everyone who says otherwise is wrong.

    You should state your positions clearly. Do you believe Tawana was raped? Yes? Or No?

    You wrote:

    I was the person in front of that judge.

    Your statement cries out for someone to ask exactly what happened. I’ll do it. What happened? What race was the perpetrator?

    You wrote:

    Innumeracy is the basis of your belief system.

    I can see from your comments that you do not know how to read the crime statistics regarding this crime or any other.


  69. no_slappz,

    You need to learn to read with out pictures.


  70. prison rapes, which are mostly black-on-white

    Reference? I question this claim.

    As so many Black males, especially from their twenties to their forties, are incarcerated

    A fact that’s very largely shaped by different rates of incarceration for nonviolent drug offenses.


  71. To see the real truth of the matter, let us take a look at the Department of Justice document Criminal Victimization in the United States, 2005. (Go to the linked document, and under “Victims and Offenders” download the pdf file for 2005.)

    In Table 42, entitled “Personal crimes of violence, 2005, percent distribution of single-offender victimizations, based on race of victims, by type of crime and perceived race of offender,” we learn that there were 111,590 white victims and 36,620 black victims of rape or sexual assault in 2005.

    In the 111,590 cases in which the victim of rape or sexual assault was white, 44.5 percent of the offenders were white, and 33.6 percent of the offenders were black. In the 36,620 cases in which the victim of rape or sexual assault was black, 100 percent of the offenders were black, and 0.0 percent of the offenders were white. The table explains that 0.0 percent means that there were under 10 incidents nationally.

    The table does not gives statistics for Hispanic victims and offenders. But the bottom line on interracial white/black and black/white rape is clear:

    In the United States in 2005, 37,460 white females were sexually assaulted or raped by a black man, while between zero and ten black females were sexually assaulted or raped by a white man.

    What this means is that every day in the United States, over one hundred white women are raped or sexually assaulted by a black man.

    Here’s the thing, if you look at the TOTAL number of rapes of black and white women, blacks committed 50% of them, while they only make up approx 12% of the population, whereas whites account for about 30% of the total, when they actually make up about 65% of the population. So this effectively means that in comparison to population percentages by race, the overall likelihood of a black committing a rape compared to a white guy is statistically quite higher. The numbers don’t lie.


  72. NOTE: if you are going to talk numbers, then please provide a WORKING link so we can see those numbers for ourselves.

    People say all kinds of things about rape numbers. Rarely are they backed up by a working link with the same numbers they are talking about.


  73. Here’s the link that John obviously forgot to provide. Otherwise, his path to the info is true and his reading of the stats is accurate. 37,460 white females were raped by black men in 2005 and less than 10 black women were raped by white men in the same year. David Duke got it just about right. Read it and weep…idiot.

    Follow this link:

    http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=1095

    Click on the “victims and offenders” PDF

    Go to table 42

    Read and analyze the section on “Rape/Sexual Assaults”


  74. To Abagond:

    abagond
    NOTE: if you are going to talk numbers, then please provide a WORKING link so we can see those numbers for ourselves.

    People say all kinds of things about rape numbers. Rarely are they backed up by a working link with the same numbers they are talking about.

    If you are talking about John’s (who could be a troll…) post the numbers appear to be accurate but specifically for 2005. As I have stated one should take a rolling average of probably at least 10 years on the DOJ surveys.

    http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/cvus05.pdf

    Other years (which have rather divergent figures from 2005) can be found here.

    http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbtp&tid=3


  75. To Eric:

    David Duke got it just about right. Read it and weep…idiot.

    Why the name calling…? Individual years should not be relied upon for data. Check out the other years for the survey:

    http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbtp&tid=3


  76. To Lynn Gazis-Sax

    As so many Black males, especially from their twenties to their forties, are incarcerated

    A fact that’s very largely shaped by different rates of incarceration for nonviolent drug offenses.

    According to the DOJ in 2008 of the Black prisoners incarcerated – 22% were for drugs whereas of the White prisoners incarcerated 15% were for drugs. So the figures are divergent but not dramatically so – at least at the state level.

    See table 7 in the link below:

    http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/p08.pdf


  77. Lynn Gazis-Sax

    However, pretty much all of the statistics I’ve seen on rape that look to be done by any remotely reliable researcher do point toward most rape being intraracial, and to a very large proportion of rape being acquaintance rather than stranger rape (which probably goes a good ways toward explaining why most of it is intraracial).

    We are on the same page about doing a multi-year average for the DOJ stats. As for stranger rape the figures on average appeared to be around 30 to 35% (at least per the DOJ crime surveys…) So no overwhelmingly acquaintance rape but the majority of time.


  78. Rates of forcible rapes in cities with large black populations
    1. Detroit, Michigan 81.6 % black….36.4 rapes per 100,000
    2. New Orleans, Louisiana 67.25…23.1
    3. Baltimore, Maryland 64.34…21.6
    4. Memphis, Tennessee 61.41…54.5
    5. Atlanta, Georgia 55.8…23.6

    Cities with highest rates of forcible rape, 2008 (black population %)
    1. Cleveland, Ohio 97.6 rapes per 100,000 (51 % black)
    2. Minneapolis, Minnesota 97.4 rapes (17.4 % black)
    3. Anchorage, Alaska 93.9 (6.3 % black)
    4. Colorado Springs, Colorado 88.5 (7 % black [?])
    5. Columbus, Ohio 81.8 (26.4 % black)

    The cities with the largest black populations in the USA don’t have the highest rates of forcible rape. The cities with the highest rates of forcible rape don’t necessarily have very large black populations. Anchorage and Colorado Springs have some of the highest rates of forcible rape but have very small black populations.

    Black criminal or street subcultures in North America and the Caribbean seems to discourage rape. So even in poor ghetto neighborhoods with high violent crime rates you can expect rates of forcible rape to be much lower then other forms of violent crime. People don’t appreciate this fact.


  79. Abagond,

    I have to commend you for having the courage to broach this topic. The subject of racial differences is always fraught with controversy, especially with respect to crime. Your willingness to write about racial differences regarding rape in a data driven fashion is encouraging to me. It tells me that there are people out there who are willing and able to at least attempt to view controversial subjects in a objective manner. I salute you!

    Let’s examine a few of your remarks in detail:

    The use of black rape statistics is a common white racist argument.

    Your statement that white racists trumpet rape statistics because it plays upon the stereotypes that whites have regarding black men (oversexed, extremely violent, lacking in self control etc.) is probably correct, but requires additional explanation. It seems to me that white racists and others (like me) use rape to illustrate two points:

    1) Rape is a crime in which police bias is minimized – Typically, liberals try to get around the fact that black men commit much more crime than other groups by stating that the police hate black men and consequently are inclined to arrest them disproportionally. White racists circumvent this argument by quoting rape statistics because the police don’t conduct rape sweeps as they do with drugs or guns. Innocent black men are not ensnared in this fashion with respect to rape, thus it provides a clearer picture of criminal propensity.

    2) Rape is a crime in which blacks (for the sake of argument, blacks in this context means American blacks) are disproportionately represented among the perpetrators and victims (referring to male/female rape).

    A more pertinent question is why the stereotypes of black men persist in the first place, especially given the media’s tendency to go out of its way to portray black men positively. It is my belief that the stereotypes regarding black criminality persist because of the underlying reality of black crime. Before Jackie Robinson entered the Major Leagues, it was widely believed that black men were too weak minded to stand the pressures of big league baseball. With the success of blacks in baseball, that particular stereotype whithered and died. Why haven’t the stereotypes about black crime also whithered?

    First, as black crime goes rape is rare.

    I don’t think “rare” is quite the right word to use. Rape, insofar as the data collected from victim surveys, is less frequent than other types of crime (although my feminist friends tell me otherwise), but rape is not rare. By your line of reasoning, all crime is rare, being that the opportunity to commit crimes greatly outweigh the actual instances of crime.

    Second, white men are a far bigger threat

    This depends on how one views the data. Regarding black women and rape, statistically speaking, white men are not a threat at all. In 2007, if the BJS victim data is to be believed (http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/cvus0702.pdf, table 42, page 33), no black women were raped by white men as single offenders. White women identified white men as their attacker in 75.5% of cases, while identifying black men in 7.6% of cases. In table 40 (page 28) of the same document, 63% of women identified their attacker as white, while women identified their attacker as black in 15.5% of the cases. Being that white men comprise approximately 70 % of the male population of the US and black men approximately 12%, we can compute a propensity indexes for both white men and black men. 63/70 = 0.9 for whites and 15.5/12 = 1.29 for blacks. Given this we can compare the indexes, 0.9/1.29 = 0.69. In other words, statistically speaking, black men are approximately 30% more likely to rape a woman, regardless of race, than white men are. So while white men are a bigger threat to white women than black men are in absolute numbers, black men are, on a percentage basis, more likely to commit rape than white men are. And note, 2007 was a year in which rapes perpetrated by black men were significantly down from previous years.

    you would expect whiter countries to be safer. Wrong.

    How can you be sure about this? Canada, for instance, does not compile rape statistics with respect to the race of perpetrators of rape. Canada has a significant non-white population. Until you can show the rape statistics with respect to race of these majority white countries, you have nothing to base this remark on.

    So where are the statistics that show black men are such dangerous rapists? It comes from comparing not all rapes but just interracial rapes.

    Not so. As Uncle Milton and others (including me) had demonstrated previously, the trend is that black men commit rape in disproportionally higher percentages than white men do. This is without taking interracial rape into consideration. The rate goes somewhat asymptotic if one were to compare interracial rape, which is where the astronomical figures many white racists quote come from. Their assumption is that very few white men (zero for purposes of their calculations) rape black women, thus if one compared a very small number (in the denominator) to a significantly larger number (in the numerator) then one gets a very large number.

    interracial rape is so rare that there are fewer than ten cases in its samples

    Again, I think infrequent, rather than rare, gets across the more accurate meaning here. Feminists say that rape is dreadfully underreported, especially in the case of black women. I would agree that rape is probably underreported, but I do not believe that one third of all women in the US are subject to sexual assault, as many in the feminist community claim, but that is another soapbox.

    As for the sample size in the victimization surveys, we find many figures annotated with “*Estimate is based on 10 or fewer sample cases”. Initially, I thought this meant that 10 or fewer cases were in existence ,which would support your statement. But after reading the documents more closely, I have to question that assumption. The estimate may not refer to cases in existence, but rather that estimates were given for computing ease, or were given because more accurate data was inaccessible. Let’s take, for example, the 2007 data for “Percent distribution of multiple-offender victimization, by type of crime and perceived race of offenders “(table 46, page 35). For the category of “Rape/Sexual assault/a”, each one of the figures is marked by an asterisk, indicating the figure is an estimate with a sample size of 10 or less. Note this includes the total number of victimizations (8310), which I would figure could not possibly be based on an estimate with a small sample size. I sent email and left voicemail for the BJS for clarification on this point.

    Interracial rape is rare for the same reasons that interracial marriage is rare.

    Let’s see if the numbers back up this assertion. Using the 2007 data, we see that black men were identified in 15.5% as the attackers of white women (single offender attacks, the stats for gang rapes are worse for black men), while 0% of white men were identified by black women as their attackers. Assuming that the out-marriage rate for blacks is 8% for men and 4% for women, it seems that black on white rape is more common, on a relative basis, than marriage between black men and white women. On the other hand, white on black rape is significantly less common than marriage between white men and black women, relatively speaking.

    The argument is built not on sound reasoning and solid facts but on white fears that go back at least to Jim Crow times.

    The arguments of white racists are often hyperbolic, but often so are yours, like when you asserted that the police were the cause of crime in black neighborhoods. It seems, although their numbers are exaggerated, white racists have the preponderate amount of data on their side.


  80. Abagond,

    I made a mistake. I wrote:

    Let’s see if the numbers back up this assertion. Using the 2007 data, we see that black men were identified in 15.5% as the attackers of white women

    This is wrong. The 2007 data shows that 7.6% of white women identified their attacker as black. Correcting for this, the rate of rape of white women by black men is approximately the same as the out-marriage rate for black men. White on black rape is significantly less frequent than marriage between white men and black women.


  81. Captain:

    Thanks! I was thinking of doing a comparison like that myself but with states.


  82. Does someone have the statistics filtered for socio-economic class and marital status, as well as race? That would be interesting information to know.

    For instance, is a married, middle-class black man statistically more or less likely to rape than a unmarried, unemployed white man?

    Without that information, and similar filtering (does he live in a city or in a rural area?) the statistics are rather meaningless, I think. They would also have to be filtered by age. White people have a declining birth rate, but black people do not. That means that a higher percentage of black men are young than white men are.

    I think we should also keep in mind that BM/WW couples are much more common than WM/BW couples, so the opportunity to rape interracially is much higher.


  83. Alte wrote:

    For instance, is a married, middle-class black man statistically more or less likely to rape than a unmarried, unemployed white man?

    Without that information, and similar filtering (does he live in a city or in a rural area?) the statistics are rather meaningless

    This is an absurd statement. You seem to be saying that we can’t draw any realistic conclusions about the racial disparities regarding rape without knowing everything about everything. Perhaps the gravitational effects of the moon should also be taken into account?

    I think we should also keep in mind that BM/WW couples are much more common than WM/BW couples, so the opportunity to rape interracially is much higher.

    Huh? What does this have to do with anything? How does this indicate anything about the opportunity to rape?


  84. @ RR

    Thank you for doing the math, but why does someone have to be a racist in order to publicly and truthfully point out that a lot black men rape a lot of white women?

    @abagond

    I like how you call out people who refute your assertions when they don’t provide links that back up their stats, yet when someone like captain fails to provide a link while trying to make you look good, it’s all good. Anyways, I’m not denying that men from all races are capable of rape. What I am confirming is that black men rape a lot of white women.


  85. Eric said: Anyways, I’m not denying that men from all races are capable of rape. What I am confirming is that black men rape a lot of white women.
    ********************

    That’s BS. People can take all sorts of statistics and come to absurd conclusions.


  86. Wow. Judging by the posts (and the links to the figures) above, I’d be forced to conclude that Abagond’s initial blog entry is incorrect in a number of places.

    I’m a Black guy, but the figures seem to be against this argument, unless Abagond is about to reply with an argument that I have missed in my calculation of the logic, presented so far.

    My own previous research into D.O.J. figures (when available by racial breakout) is that Whites commit more crimes in total numbers, but Blacks commit more crimes per capita. So, the criminals within the 13% of the American Black population commit more crimes, by percentage of ethnic population, than do White criminals—rape included.

    That being said, the chances of an individual being raped by a STRANGER of another ethnicity are pretty low, and fall into lottery and lightning strike statistical rarity when measuring the recorded incidents against the American population of 30 million.

    As has been mentioned above, most rapes are done by a person known to the victim, and intra-ethnic rape is much more common than inter-ethnic rape. And because the highest total number of rapes are done by White men (only because they are the majority ethnic group) a random woman on the street has a higher chance of being raped by a White man than a Black man (because there are far fewer Black men than White).

    This racial calculus will probably make little difference to the woman who is raped.


  87. Maybe the best thing for you to do is look at the Department of Justice statistics that were linked, come to your own conclusions, and tell me how I and the other people in this forum who agree with my conclusions are “absurd.” I’d love to be proven wrong. It pains me to know that any women are the target of so much violence. We’ve already stated our case. State yours.


  88. Sorry, last post was directed at Jade.


  89. What is probably absurd is the claim amongst White racists (the Stormfront brain trust) that “Black man rape” is a larger problem overall than is rape in general. Race is seldom the motivating factor in rape cases, and it shouldn’t be used to further divide people. Rape is an terrible crime, no matter who is doing it.


  90. @ RR

    “This is an absurd statement. You seem to be saying that we can’t draw any realistic conclusions about the racial disparities regarding rape without knowing everything about everything. Perhaps the gravitational effects of the moon should also be taken into account?”

    I think you may be missing Alte’s point.

    Alte is saying that you cannot draw statistical probabilities in regard to individuals/individual crimes, based on the disparities in ethnic crime statistics. In order to make individual assessments, of any kind, you need more information than ethnicity.


  91. I’d love to be proven wrong.

    I’m sure you would!

    I salute you!

    Praise Glory!!!

    We’ve already stated our case. State yours.

    Is that an order?

    oops, there he is lol

    Looks like he brought some of his friends, hahaha!

    I like how you call out people who refute your assertions when they don’t provide links that back up their stats, yet when someone like captain fails to provide a link while trying to make you look good, it’s all good.

    Oh please, Google it like the rest of these posters did!


  92. @Biziet

    Where did you learn that race is seldom a motivator in sexual assault? Can I get a link to the study/data?


  93. The answer is in the statistics, that most rapes occur between people who know one another, and the fact that it happens most often between people of the same race.

    Of course, historically speaking, White men were in a position of social and economic power especially as compared to Black women. In these years, however, the population of mixed race children increased significantly. Since White men held the power (including force of law) and Black women did not, it is reasonable to assume that a significant number of Black women were raped or coerced by White men, especially since so very few Black women were married to White men.

    Would that be considered a racial motivation for rape? I suppose it could, but I was speaking about the now, not the then.


  94. on Fri 9 Apr 2010 at 05:59:24 Menelik Charles

    @ Everyone,

    this is evidently a highly emotional subject, and one in which all sorts of disparities are apparent. For examples:

    Captain said:

    The cities with the largest black populations in the USA don’t have the highest rates of forcible rape. The cities with the highest rates of forcible rape don’t necessarily have very large black populations.

    no_slappz said:

    As far as the realities for women living in rape-ocracies goes, the one offering the most reliable statistics is South Africa. However, the country in which being a women means rape is part of life is Congo. It is fair to say that Congo is the site of an ongoing rape holocaust.

    Menelik responds:

    and clearly the only thing sorely lacking in these race-based statistical (very broadly speaking) ‘analysis’ are the different context in which rape occurs; the socio-cultural context, for example.

    Context better explains statistical findings than does race-baiting and racial point scoring, surely!

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  95. @Uncle Milton: According to the DOJ in 2008 of the Black prisoners incarcerated – 22% were for drugs whereas of the White prisoners incarcerated 15% were for drugs. So the figures are divergent but not dramatically so – at least at the state level.

    Well, 22% is half again as high as 15%, so, relative to each other, the difference between those stats is large. But I’ll take the correction that drugs make for less incarceration overall than I’d thought.

    As for stranger rape the figures on average appeared to be around 30 to 35% (at least per the DOJ crime surveys…) So no overwhelmingly acquaintance rape but the majority of time.

    That fits with the kinds of figures I’ve seen at sites giving information about rape (perhaps because they also were using DOJ stats). Not an overwhelming majority, but still quite a large majority.

    @RR: And that business about most rapes being acquaintance rapes is why I’d expect, if race had no other influence, to see more black men raping white women than white men raping black women. The more a given pairing socializes, the more they’d be in the set of people available for acquaintance rape. Actually, I’d have expected the BM/WW rape rate to be higher than the intermarriage rate, other things equal, since intermarriage trails other social interaction (I’m sure the rate of consensual sex between BM and WW is significantly higher than the intermarriage rate).

    On the other hand, the WM/BW rate you’re getting from the 2007 data still looks surprisingly low to me, and leaves me wondering if these rapes are particularly unlikely to get reported.

    Which brings me to …

    Rape is a crime in which police bias is minimized – Typically, liberals try to get around the fact that black men commit much more crime than other groups by stating that the police hate black men and consequently are inclined to arrest them disproportionally. White racists circumvent this argument by quoting rape statistics because the police don’t conduct rape sweeps as they do with drugs or guns. Innocent black men are not ensnared in this fashion with respect to rape, thus it provides a clearer picture of criminal propensity.

    I think bias works in more complicated ways than this, and it’s actually hard to find a crime where some sort of bias couldn’t be influencing the rates we see. Consider, for example, the fact that white men appear to be more heavily represented, relative to black men, as child molesters (http://childprotection.lifetips.com/cat/63573/sex-offender-statistics/index.html) than as rapists of adults. Does that actually mean that white men are molesting relatively more children, while black men are raping relatively more adult women? Maybe it does (though it’s hard to imagine a racial/genetic difference that would cause such a disparity, there could be cultural factors that would cause it). But it’s also possible that it’s a reporting difference. Maybe children in the neighborhoods where white people live are being more heavily watched for signs of abuse. Maybe people are more likely to report the sorts of rapes where they think the police and the courts will believe them. (That could certainly influence, for example, the disparities people are citing in interracial rates for different pairings, if, for example, white women are more likely to think they’ll be believed about being raped by black men than black women are to think they’ll be believed about being raped by white men).

    Also, any disparity that does exist, independent of bias, could have various causes (e.g. if the crime is one particularly likely to be committed by young men, then any race whose population skews younger will commit relatively more of that crime), so, there could be racial differences that would go away if you controlled for age, or income, or some other factor.

    This doesn’t mean that BOJ statistics don’t give useful information, of course, but it does mean that, even if you do things like take ten year averages (as Uncle Milton and I agree is preferable to taking any one year), you still don’t have a source immune to bias (that doesn’t exist in this sort of area), and you still have a result that could be open to various causal interpretations.


  96. I have a long comment that appears to be in moderation; maybe I put too many URLs in it. In the meantime …

    @Eric: yet when someone like captain fails to provide a link while trying to make you look good, it’s all good

    Here’s a link to rape rates in different cities: http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2010/tables/10s0298.pdf

    I haven’t checked it to see whether it reports the same results as Captain, but if you want to, feel free.

    @RR: I would agree that rape is probably underreported, but I do not believe that one third of all women in the US are subject to sexual assault, as many in the feminist community claim, but that is another soapbox.

    I think figures like that come from surveys that use definitions of sexual assault that are broader than just rape (for example, getting forcibly groped in non-penetrative ways).


  97. on Fri 9 Apr 2010 at 06:22:28 Menelik Charles

    Alte asked:

    1) Does anyone have the statistics filtered for socio-economic class and marital status, as well as race?

    2) is a married, middle-class black man statistically more or less likely to rape than a unmarried, unemployed white man?

    Alte also suggests:

    1) without that information, and similar filtering (e.g. does he live in a city or in a rural area?) the statistics are rather meaningless, I think.

    2) they would also have to be filtered by age since whites have a declining birth rate, but blacks do not. That means that a higher percentage of black men are young than white men are.

    Menelik responds:

    the above is the sorts of social investigation/questioning necessary in order for the “alarming” statistics to be placed in their proper context. There’s a saying in England which goes: “there are lies, damned lies and statistics”.

    Makes sense to me!

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  98. It’s not that there is no truth to the statistics. Abagond’s initial blog entry was entirely based upon statistics. It’s just defining what truth is actually being revealed.


  99. on Fri 9 Apr 2010 at 10:00:47 Menelik Charles

    Biziet said:

    It’s not that there is no truth to the statistics. Abagond’s initial blog entry was entirely based upon statistics. It’s just defining what truth is actually being revealed.

    Abagond said:

    1) The use of black rape statistics is a common WHITE RACIST ARGUMENT. It seeks to prove that black men have a dark and savage nature by showing that they rape women at vastly higher rates than white men.

    2) The beauty of the argument is that few whites question it because it plays on TWO STEREOTYPES they have about black men: they are violent and they have stronger sex drives that they cannot control.

    Menelik replies:

    @Biziet

    evidently Abagond’s initial blog entry was almost entirely based on debunking stereotypes and assumptions surrounding the issues of race and rape. And he attempted, successfully or otherwise, to challenged said stereotypes and assumptions USING statistical ‘evidence’.

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  100. Uncle Milton:

    1. When I wrote the post I looked at the 2006 DOJ report but tried to keep the post as independent of particular numbers as possible.

    2. Ten years of numbers would be better, but the sample size would still be statistically insignificant.

    3. In some cases taking an average will give you a number “closer to the truth” but in other cases it is a waste of time.

    For example, if I measured something repeatedly and got like 1.25, 1.23, 1.25, 1.20 and 1.27, an average would probably be closer to the true value.

    But if the numbers are all over the place, like 0.3, 5.0, 1.0, 2.3 and 4.7, an average would be meaningless.


  101. Biziet:

    Menelik has it right: my post tried to show that the argument rests not on sound data but on white stereotypes.

    It is VERY MUCH LIKE THE IQ DEBATE: use whatever numbers you can find, even when they do not hold up to common sense questions, and use them to excuse your own racism under the banner of Truth – when in fact there is no search for truth, just the shoring up of prejudices learned in childhood.

    Look at the comments for yourself: most black commenters quickly grew bored – because the black rapist argument is that brainless. If black rapists were some huge threat they would know it more clearly than whites would. Meanwhile white commenters are trying to “save the numbers”. Why????


  102. Eric & John:

    You both need to learn to read. My post addresses your very points. Either you did not read it or read it but did not understand. Or did not want to understand.

    You also failed to understand the DOJ report: when it says there are “less than ten cases” of white-on-black rape they do not mean less than ten cases in the whole country, they mean less than ten cases IN THEIR SAMPLE. Inotherwords, the sample size is too small to draw any “accurate” conclusions from, one of the main points made in my post.

    In the 2006 report there were less than ten cases of black-and-white rape for the simple fact that there were less than ten cases of rape in which blacks took any identifiable part at all.


  103. Uncle Milton:

    Again about the ten years of numbers: I covered that in the post by saying this:

    “But better numbers would not help: after all, if you applied the same reasoning to numbers on marriage it would “prove” that black men are by nature also more likely to marry.”


  104. I am pretty sure that there are way more black-on-white rapes than white-on-black rapes in America. Simply because most rape is done by people the victim already knows. It is widely observed in the States that black men date white women at way higher rates than white men date black women. So that alone would drive up the rates of black-on-white rape. Also most blacks know more white people than whites know blacks, which again would drive up the numbers.

    But does that mean black men are more given to rape? Hardly. It just means they have more opportunity. Uncle Milton was quick to make the very same argument in defence of white men when I said that few of them married blacks because they are racist.


  105. Lynn:

    Thanks for the data on cities. It was my mistake not to ask Captain for it.


  106. No Slappz said:

    “Any way you slice the data, it is clear that blacks are more rape-prone than whites.”

    What makes blacks are more rape-prone?


  107. In my initial post I had said:

    “what end and purposes thingsare constructed the way they are”??

    and

    “Living in the UK, can I ask someone here to inform me (and for others who may also be interested), if all crimes in the U.S. are broken down by the FBI and/or other agencies into race and/or ethnicity??”

    “There are two matters pertaining to this subject and the observation and question I raised, and I do not think have been looked at thus far, in a substantial way”.

    1. The Philosophy of Science
    2. The Problem of ‘experimentation’ in the social sciences

    Philosophy of Science

    Any specific area of study viz. specifically why study a certain phenomena is a ‘subjective’ process??

    With regard to the rape statistics. Scholars have found that there are a number of ‘rape myths’ in society. One of those myths is that rape is committed by a certain group of men whether it be race and or class.

    Very rarely do scholars suggest that rape is specifically a crime committed by ALL men, and thus a male problem. Only a few feminist scholar may suggest this like Brownmiller who avers that all men have the potential to commit rape against women, to the angst of males.

    Now broadening Susan Brownmiller hypothesis further. I could undertake a study to show that the problem with the world is the male species. I can look at history, to view that most of the wars in the past, have been the creation of ‘males’. I can use statistics to show that it is males who sexually assault women, and in some other instances other men, as well as children.

    I can use the stats in the to show the disparity in the wages between men and women and so on and so forth.
    AT the end of my study I can reach the conclusion that the male of the human family appears to be ‘dsysfunctional’, if not ‘evil’ – if I am making a ‘value judgement’.

    However, this type of study, although it can be proved to be ‘demonstrable’, is never undertaken.

    Question: WHY?


  108. Part 2 –

    Problem with Experimentation in Social Sciences
    The problem with statistics goes merely beyond you can interpret them in any way possible.

    There is a more fundamental issues that have to be looked at. For instance, how are the statistics collected?? Is there any ‘biases’ that have affected the process of collection? Furthermore do the statistics provide a ‘veridical’ representation of the world, in other words can you establish cause and effect??

    With regard to the rape statistics, let us assume that the figures do show that Black males do commit more rape than other racial groups. Could it be the figures in fact reveals something else viz. that Black males are the ones that get CAUGHT by the criminal justice system compared to other groups, as opposed to Black males are committing more rape?

    To demonstrate that Black commits more rape than any other social groups, much more rigourous experimentation would be required. Probably the issue of correlation (ie where two variables appear to be related will NOT do in this instance ie rape statistics and Black males).

    Rather cause (ie being Black then leads to a preponderance of rape) and effect, would have to be established, never an easy thing in the social sciences.
    For reasons we have discussed here before.

    So on a fundamental level these are the ‘problems’ that one in ‘essence’ should be looking at.


  109. Based simply on the arrest numbers, it seems that black men in America commit rape at a higher rate than white men. True, the police are racist but black women are also less likely to report it, which I imagine would more than offset whatever police racism there is.

    But that does not prove that black men are more given to rape BECAUSE THEY ARE BLACK. If it was as simple as that then Jamaica would would NOT be safer than Canada and Australia, nor would America. Instead, in spite of large numbers of black men, both countries are SAFER than much whiter countries.


  110. Also, whatever the rate is at which black men rape women, WHITE MEN are STILL BY FAR the BIGGER THREAT – PARTICULARLY TO WHITE WOMEN.

    These arguments about black rapists are not about protecting white women – they are about excusing white racism and the society it has made.


  111. No Slappz was quick to excuse racist policing based on his “fact” that 95% of the violent crime in New York is committed by blacks and Latinos. Yet when he admits that white men commit 65.2% of the rape they get a pass and black men are AGAIN the big threat.


  112. One more point: there is a difference between saying that America is 13% black and saying that the “perceived race” of someone was black. The 13% is based on the US Census. Unlike the police, that is not based on PERCEIVED race but self-reported race. Two different things. As I have argued elsewhere, the country is probably close to 20% black going by PERCEIVED race – mostly because of black Hispanics.


  113. And I felt I had to comment on this, which I find highly amusing:

    With regard to:

    “Abagond,

    I have to commend you for having the courage to broach this topic. The subject of racial differences is always fraught with controversy, especially with respect to crime. Your willingness to write about racial differences regarding rape in a data driven fashion is encouraging to me. It tells me that there are people out there who are willing and able to at least attempt to view controversial subjects in a objective manner. I salute you!”

    Here read thank you very much now I can prove the fact that Blacks commit more rapes, and something is wrong with them.

    And again

    “It seems to me that white racists and others (like me) use rape to illustrate two points”

    Here read it is good to be in comparison with the White racists to prove that Black males are ‘dysfunctional’

    Furthermore

    “A more pertinent question is why the stereotypes of black men persist in the first place… It is my belief that the stereotypes regarding black criminality persist because of the underlying reality of black crime”

    Here read that I will put the cart before the horse and still expect to carry my goods to the market – and the process entirely remains logic

    ha ha ha – classic


  114. Thanks, J.


  115. j, you wrote:

    I could undertake a study to show that the problem with the world is the male species. I can look at history, to view that most of the wars in the past, have been the creation of ‘males’. I can use statistics to show that it is males who…

    That’s right. And from that point you can undertake a closer examination of males to determine many more of their characteristics and traits.

    With respect to anti-social behavior, it is the relative differences between groups that matter.

    There are crimes that are perpetrated by whites and blacks at roughly equal rates. In those cases the silly hypothetical comparisons of education, wealth, class etc of perps might lead to some useful understanding.

    But when it comes to murder and rape, the racial divergence is huge. Meanwhile, dissemblers want to dodge the obvious fact and run the discussion toward the occurrence of inter-racial rape. Truly a red herring, a diversion from the true topic. All that matters is why these violent crimes and other violent crimes are so regularly a part of black life.

    When it comes to rape, the situation is terribly murky. Most African nations have populations with a median age of about 19. Some are lower — 17. Meanwhile, the expected lifespan of people in these countries is usually no more than 50.

    What does this tell you? It tells you girls begin having sex and reproducing at very very young ages. Based on the numbers, it looks as though every male in those countries has violated the statutory rape laws of the US. But those laws do not seem to exist in Africa.

    Then there is the muslim factor, which permits marriage of children. And allows the beating of wives, who are virtual slaves.

    Meanwhile, back here in America, blacks have created massive problems for themselves through illegitimacy and fatherlessness.

    Teenage pregnancy and motherhood are huge and problematic issues among blacks. How sexaully pressured are teenaged black girls? When does the pressure and coercion cross the line into rape? Hard to say.

    But the teen motherhood rate among blacks says there’s a lot of pressure.


  116. However, what you say here No_Slappz does NOT minimise what I have said about

    1. Problems of Philosophy of Science – Why certain things are investigated?

    2. The Problem of experimentation, statistics within social sciences – Do they measure and/or reveal ’cause and effect’

    I think your position should be that you believe that Blacks have a greater proclivity to violence than Whites and your understanding of the stats show this.

    This is a completely difference process from saying that the stats reveals that Blacks ARE more violent than White.

    Or are you adopting some other position which is not clear to me??


  117. @Abagond, according to the Jamaica Gleaner, there were 423 reported rapes in 2004 in Jamaica. http://www.jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20060319/news/news5.html.

    According to my calculations that means Jamaica has a rape rate of about 15 per 100,000.

    Wikipedia says Jamaica is 91.2 % black and 6.2 % ‘mixed’.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaica#Ethnic_origins

    Canada is roughly 85 % white and 15 % non-white. The majority of non-whites are South, East and Southeast Asian. Blacks make up just 2.5 % of the country’s total population. In 2002 Canada had a rape rate per 100,000 of 77.64. Much higher then the much blacker nation of Jamaica.

    see page 40 of http://www.unodc.org/pdf/crime/eighthsurvey/8sv.pdf.

    The black population of Canada is concentrated in urban centers, especially in the Toronto area, Montreal and the Halifax-Preston area. Toronto is in the province of Ontario,
    Montreal is in Quebec and Halifax-Preston is in Nova Scotia.
    Canada doesn’t break down rapes by race of perpetrator and victim. But it does break it down by province:

    http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85f0033m/85f0033m2008019-eng.pdf

    Quebec and Ontario, with the largest black populations in Canada, both have rape rates below the national average. Nova Scotia’s rape rates are slightly above average but not the highest in the country.

    The provinces with the highest rates of rape in Canada are those that had relatively small black populations. Manitoba and Saskatchewan, with smaller black populations then Ontario and Quebec, are the provinces with the highest rape rates in Canada. Rates of sexual assaults are even higher in the northern territories of Yukon, Northwest Territories and Nunavuk. These territories have only very tiny black populations. If a black guy committed a rape in Inuvik or Pond Inlet I don’t
    think the police would have too much trouble finding him.

    All of these stats would lead one to conclude that black men are not responsible for the majority of rapes in Canada.

    Similar data can be found in the US. The states with the highest rates of sexual assault (Alaska, New Mexico, Washington, etc.) mostly have black populations that are well below the national average. The states with the largest black populations (D.C., Mississippi, Louisiana, etc.) do not have the highest rates of rape.

    These stats can be found on FBI, Department of Justice and US census websites.


  118. “A more pertinent question is why the stereotypes of black men persist in the first place… It is my belief that the stereotypes regarding black criminality persist because of the underlying reality of black crime”

    Stereotypes about black men in general are, what, violent, rape prone, highly sexed, possessed of big penises? With the minor compensating virtues of being able to dance and shoot hoops well? It’s not a picture that at all resembles any actual black man I’ve had occasion to interact intimately with, so the notion that the stereotype in general persists because of underlying reality doesn’t pass the smell test with me. On the other hand, it fits very neatly with the ordinary human bias we all have to believe we’re better than other people in the qualities we find important; it’s only natural that the group that’s more powerful gets to claim for itself the qualities our culture values most, and assign to other groups the qualities our culture fears most.

    This isn’t to say that one or another element of the stereotype might not, at this time in place, on average, actually be true. Who knows, maybe if I took out a measuring tape and got to work I’d discover that black men really are on average somewhat better endowed. But it does mean that one can’t infer much reality from the fact that white America surrenders its stereotypes about black men not being good at some particular sport more readily than its stereotypes about black men being particularly violent and sexually out of control.

    “When it comes to rape, the situation is terribly murky. Most African nations have populations with a median age of about 19. Some are lower — 17. Meanwhile, the expected lifespan of people in these countries is usually no more than 50.”

    Which would tend to lead one to expect that most African countries would have a higher reported rape rate than countries where the average population is older (since crimes of violence tend to be committed by young men), but in fact that turns out not to be the case. Here are rapes by country:

    http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita

    South Africa leads the way, and, in case anyone wants to use these to draw inferences of genetic predisposition, it’s nice to see that the country of my own ancestors, Greece, has a relatively low rape rate. But it turns out that Australia’s right up there behind South Africa, while Zambia’s rate is lower than that of most countries.

    I’m not sure how reliable country comparisons are, given that reporting rates may well vary widely from one country to another, but, such as they are, they don’t point to black men as black men being especially rape prone, but rather to the conclusion that any racial differences in rape rates that exist on average in any particular time and place are probably highly contingent to that time and place.


  119. on Fri 9 Apr 2010 at 14:23:17 Menelik Charles

    no_slappz said:

    All that matters is WHY these violent crimes and other violent crimes are so regularly a part of black life.

    Menelik replied:

    hallelujah! Now’s your chance, no_slappz, finally tell us why “violent crimes are so regularly a part of black life”.

    I eagerly await your reply.

    Thanks.

    menelik Charles
    London England


  120. If rape conviction rates in the US correlated with, for example, low income, it would make sense of the contradictory facts that black men get convicted more often for rape without areas with high black populations actually having higher numbers of rapes. Maybe in any given area it is either the case that low income men are committing proportionally more rapes, or that men who can’t afford good attorneys are proportionally worse at getting themselves acquitted (and therefore, people being rational at assessing their odds, probably also more likely to get reported, arrested, and indicted).


  121. @ Lynn Gazis Sax

    Criminal justice statisticians readily admit that comparing crime rates by country is virtually useless. This is because of different perceptions of what constitutes a crime, methods of criminal justice, traditional cultural dependence or lack thereof on the criminal justice system, how accessible an individual system is to victims of crimes such as rape, how much easier it is to report rape in a country where women possess basic human rights versus a country where clitoral amputation is still practiced, etc.

    On the surrender of stereotypes, what interests me about this discussion is not the opportunity to prove or disprove that one race is more peaceful or violent than the other, I’m not a barbarian, but instead the attempt to draw a path to at least one place where these perceptions originate. Why blame civilian white people, and thereby hypocritically suggest that they possess some social malfunction based on their race, when it’s the government that’s reinforcing these perceptions with THEIR data. If a white person goes to the DOJ web-site and sees that a DOJ survey concluded over a 5 year span that proportionate to white men, black men commit a significantly higher level of violent crimes, what do you expect the perception to be? How does one surrender the “stereotype” when it’s so readily confirmed by the “man?” If the figures are bogus, blame them and their practices, not me.


  122. Eric, one problem is that a Caucasian who speaks Spanish does not, by virtue of his language, become another ethnicity. Neither is it incorrect for a person of mixed ethnic lineage to choose to identify himself with the Caucasian side of his ethnic makeup. In other words, just because you can pull a few Latino’s out of the hat that don’t fit into your idea of the classical Caucasian “look” doesn’t mean that their self-identification as Caucasians is suspect.

    Do you really assume that whenever the crime statistics seem high for Whites, that the real problem is that too many Latino’s (or others) are identified as White, and that these people are the real problem? Are there really so few “pure White” criminals in the world? How about all the trailer parks, and hick posse’s, and biker meth gangs? Is it so impossible that White people are doing these crimes that we must resort to the idea that Whit- identified non Whites are being unfairly counted as to skew the numbers?

    Consider your assumptions.


  123. Eric:

    I deleted a comment of yours because it was about murder. Let us stick to rape, please. I was already derailed on the subject of murder to talk about rape. I am not going to be derailed back.


  124. @King –

    drive around predominant White rural America, and you will see poverty….

    Meth labs are abundant in rural poor White America…. and it is stuffed full of criminals.


  125. @ King

    Do you really believe that those Latinos self-identified as white? Do you think that they checked “white” on their census form or on job applications?

    You’re the one making assumptions about me. I never said that I believe that white crime numbers are relatively high and I never said that those numbers are spiked by the confusing state of what whiteness entails in modern America. I simply threw out the idea in order to remind people that whiteness is a pretty abstract and subjective concept in America.

    However, if Los Angeles County starts placing Hispanic offenders under the come one come all category of white, it’s pretty obvious that white crime numbers will increase and can then be considered skewed. If the same method of classification was applied on a nationwide basis the same thing would happen but on a lower level. This is not because I’m attributing a higher level of anti-social behavior to Hispanics, but instead because Hispanics comprise a large portion of LA county’s population and a significant portion of America’s general population while being every bit as prone to criminal behavior as anyone else. Without delving into Hispanic crime rates, I believe this and assume this with a high degree of confidence. It’s common sense. By the same token, if white crime started being labeled Hispanic crime I would fully expect Hispanic crime numbers to go up.

    Outside of being white and defending white people in a forum where they’re being illogically dog-piled, I’m not sure what I did to make you assume that I’m filled with ingrained, racist assumptions. But hey, if that’s how you need to view me, go on with your bad self. Did it ever occur to your that you’re the one making the racist assumptions?


  126. @ color of luv and king

    Yes, the meth epidemic in white rural America is a tragedy and it has, from my studies, primarily increased property crimes in those areas to a level matching the national average.

    However, you should do some homework into who controls the meth trade. Here’s an article:

    http://www.valleymeth.com/chapter_5.html

    An article about meth use in the black gay community:

    http://www.diesellife.net/meth-use-rising-among-black-gay-men.htm

    Abagond,

    Please don’t delete this comment. Your advocates brought up the meth trade and you didn’t delete their words. All I’m doing is educating them and trying to get them to think about the problem in more complex and truthful terms. The meth epidemic is far from existing in a white vacuum. People need to know this. It’s counter-productive to creating a remedy when problems like this are falsely ascribed to one community.


  127. “Do you really believe that those Latinos self-identified as white? Do you think that they checked “white” on their census form or on job applications?”

    So… they didn’t self identify as white? You’re saying that because you’re looking at them, and they don’t match your own definition of white, that they certainly didn’t self-identify as white?

    Here’s a piece or news: Many hispanics actually do consider themselves to be caucasian hispanics. They self-identify with the caucasian ruling class of counties like Mexico or Argentina.

    As to where meth comes from, it comes from a lot of places, just like cocaine and heroine does. A significant amount of it is homemade by white biker gangs, but I don’t really care where it comes from.

    Meth is to the white poor as was
    Crack to the black poor.


  128. The way most people try to make sense of ethnic crime statistics (including rape) is totally wrong in the first place. The vast majority of amateur analysis done is based on a totally faulty understanding of what the figures actually indicate.

    1) If the statistics show that rape is proportionally higher among black men, then more black men must be committing rape.

    UNTRUE: The statistics are not counting people, but incidents. The figures could just as well be indicating that those who do rape, within this community, are more active. That doesn’t make much difference to the community in which the rapes are occurring, but it does make a difference when making assumptions about the higher PERCENTAGES of black men who are rapists. But why would the rapists in this community be more active? Maybe it’s easier to get away with rape, in that neiborhood, based on what crimes the police are prioritizing. It probably has nothing to do with melanin.

    2) If rape statistics are high in a certain neighborhood, then the risk of being raped in that neighborhood is also high for the White women who work there.

    UNTRUE: Further statistics may reveal that all of the reported rapes took place between the hours of 9:00 pm and 4:00 am, or they might indicate that 92% of the incidents were date rape. So, if a white woman is not out on a date between the hours of 9:00 -1:00, she may be statistically, just as safe as she would be in her own neighborhood.

    3) Higher rape statistics, in a given ethnic community, mean that there is a higher “chance” that a person of that ethnicity will be a rapist.

    UNTRUE: If someone is not a rapist, there is a 0% chance of him raping you. The fact that rape numbers (by percetage of population) are higher in the black community than in the white community, does not make any individual black man more likely to rape anybody.

    All of this should be obvious, but you’d be surprised by how many people seem to miss it.


  129. Rape is like the national pastime of the African comunity. After all, you can’t spell “rape” without “ape.”


  130. what a loser… You’re probably some pre-pubescent teenager who knows nothing about reality yet.

    Grow up Petey and learn that you should only spew crap from the hole that God made for that purpose, and not out of your mouth.


  131. Abogond said:

    “What makes blacks are more rape-prone?”

    Higher testosterone levels.


  132. @Eric: Criminal justice statisticians readily admit that comparing crime rates by country is virtually useless.

    I mostly agree. I mainly offered that link because other people in the thread had already dragged in rape levels in the Democratic Republic of Congo and in South Africa, both of which countries, for different reasons, are highly unrepresentative of Africa as a whole when it comes to rape statistics.

    I would qualify the “virtually useless,” though, by saying that in some cases, comparisons of crime rates in the US with crime rates in relatively culturally similar countries (such as the UK, Canada, and Australia) might be informative (but you’d still have to be aware that there could be multiple reasons for whatever differences you’d find).

    On the surrender of stereotypes, what interests me about this discussion is not the opportunity to prove or disprove that one race is more peaceful or violent than the other, I’m not a barbarian, but instead the attempt to draw a path to at least one place where these perceptions originate.

    It’s hard for me to tell, in this discussion, which people are actually arguing for the stereotypes and which may be making more limited points about statistics and perceptions. I don’t get the impression that Uncle Milton is arguing for the stereotypes, but I’m pretty sure at least some of the people in the thread are (even aside from obviously trolling remarks like the last one by Peter Lerman).

    Why blame civilian white people, and thereby hypocritically suggest that they possess some social malfunction based on their race

    I’m a cultural determinist all around when it comes to racial differences (less thoroughly so when it comes to gender differences), so I don’t think white people have any unusual social malfunctions that people of other races lack (similarly, of course, for black people). On the other hand, I don’t think the “black man as likely rapist” stereotype is primarily drawn from BOJ statistics, as a) most people don’t know or look at those statistics, and b) most people who do look at them, do so only to promote the position they already hold.

    Rather, I think that the stereotype draws support from several general human biases: 1) the tendency to think better of our group than not our group, however “our group” may be defined at any given time, 2) a tendency not to distinguish very well at all between “group A is overrepresented in category B” and “most people of category B are part of group A,” so that, once people conclude, whether correctly or not, that a higher percentage of group A do such-and-such, they then recklessly generalize further, and 3) a tendency to side with the winner (so, since black people obviously fare worse than white people in various ways in the US, they have to be doing something wrong, relative to white people). (I suppose, for this particular stereotype, I should add the “group A is coming to get our women” bias, one that does crop up in other cases than white people’s fears about black men, even if white people’s fears about black men provide a particularly obvious instance of it.)

    They aren’t special white people biases, but general human ones; I figure that, everything that annoys me about black people, white people would also be doing in their shoes, and every time they get frustrated that we just don’t get it, they wouldn’t get it any better if they were in our shoes.

    Do you really believe that those Latinos self-identified as white?

    Some Latinos identify as white, and some don’t; the boundaries of whiteness get fuzzy when it comes to the “Latino” and “Middle Eastern” categories.

    whiteness is a pretty abstract and subjective concept in America.

    On this point, I agree.


  133. Does someone have the statistics filtered for socio-economic class and marital status, as well as race? That would be interesting information to know.

    Alte makes a valid point.

    On the street, it never pays to base your choices on a single criterion.

    The fact that ON AVERAGE AND IN THE AGGREGATE, black males are more prone to crime than white males — and it is a fact, let’s drop the silly pretenses — dwindles to near irrelevance when all other variables come into play.

    Jesse Jackson once said that when he sees two young black men coming towards him, he crosses the street. But that only proves what a sheltered lifestyle Jackson lives and that he has lost his instincts if ever he had any.

    If you have lived in the big city for a while then you become wise to clues: dress, demeanor, body language, your “spidey sense”. Basing your decisions on skin color alone could cost you your life.

    Also, statistics — and they are what they are — must not dictate how I approach a stranger. Every human being starts out with the presumption of innocence. If you have lost the ability to give people the benefif of the doubt, you have lost your hiumanity.

    Staistics can be important when deciding on matters of public policy. For example, claims of a white-led “holocaust” against black people based on their much higher incarceration rate can be brushed off by simply pointing to their higher crime rate.

    But, the points made by Alte are always valid. You have to grab any and every item of data that you can and then integrate to get a rounded picture. Beware of over-simplification.


  134. on Fri 9 Apr 2010 at 19:46:47 Menelik Charles

    Alte said:

    We should also keep in mind that BM/WW couples are much more common than WM/BW couples, so the opportunity to rape inter-racially is much higher.

    RR asked:

    Huh? What does this have to do with anything? How does this indicate anything about the opportunity to rape?

    Menelik replied:

    ever heard of 1) date rape or 2) acquaintance rape? I have.

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  135. Talk about letting the trolls run free.

    ColorOfLuv,

    I concur. This is precisely why I factor in people’s ages when they comment serious topics.


  136. Lower intelligence, lower impulse control, the inability to defer gratification… all of these things could contribute to higher rates of rape as well.


  137. @ Ahoo Betty. It might seem so, at first blush, but that’s only because you’re expressing a child’s view of what rape is.

    Rape is about power—the sexual component is secondary. Many rapists go home to wives or girlfriends. The idea that rape happens because someone is really, really, horny and just can’t help but rip some poor women’s clothes off, due to high testosterone levels, is the 7th grade theory of the phenomenon.

    Reading books may help you.


  138. no_slappz said:

    All that matters is WHY these violent crimes and other violent crimes are so regularly a part of black life.

    We know why: fatherlessness. The difference in violent crime rates disappears completely when single motherhood is taken into account. And fatherless white men are just as likely to be antisocial as fatherless black men. It trumps every other indicator: race, class, neighborhood, education level, citizenship, marital status, etc.

    And, as we’ve just seen on the news, single motherhood is increasing dramatically, including single white motherhood. But I don’t mean to derail the thread.

    King made some good points about statistical interpretation, as well.


  139. inmyview,

    Beware of over-simplification.

    Why not, it suits their purpose?


  140. @Mira — “It seems that 100 white rapists are individuals, but one black rapist is a proof blacks are violent, oversexed creatures.”

    Phhhtttt. The rare times I do hear of a White rapist, here’s what I think: “Oh, a rapist. A white rapist. Bummer.” Not “Oh, an individual.”

    Get it together. What’s this gauze over your eyes?
    The issue is that blacks rape a lot more often.
    Another issue is that the media covers the news up, preferring to go nuts over stuff like cotton balls dropped in the parking lot of a black dormitory.


  141. This just peachy king! All this discussion has provided is a place for the peacocks to strut their stuff and smugly say, you blacks rape more than me.

    One day a statistic will not save your ass.


  142. Phhhtttt. The rare times I do hear of a White rapist, here’s what I think: “Oh, a rapist. A white rapist. Bummer.”

    In other words, you see that as something strange (a white rapist) and I bet you don’t think he rapes because being white is what makes him violent?

    Try living in all white country. All rapists are white, and there’s no shortage of them.

    The issue is that blacks rape a lot more often.

    No, the issue is why people believe they do, and there’s no really a proof for that.

    Another issue is that the media covers the news up, preferring to go nuts over stuff like cotton balls dropped in the parking lot of a black dormitory.

    I have no idea what you’re talking about.


  143. @Mira:

    Try living in all white country. All rapists are white, and there’s no shortage of them.

    Right on. As if living in an all white society will prevent wm from raping. Yeah, that’ll happen. *sarcasm*


  144. on Sat 10 Apr 2010 at 11:56:11 Cannibal Rabbi

    Anyway, i think i’ve made some fair points, and civil.
    Any squirmy “honkies”, “crackas” at this site feel free to visit and be enlightened, at this location. You too of course Albagond

    http://incogman.wordpress.com/

    Feel free to indulge in racial epithets, hate speech or any other form of communication you care to jndulge.

    Cheers.


  145. Yes, please take your ilk along with you.


  146. @Cannibal Rabbi

    what does that have to do with anything click on the red cross on the corne of the screen and exit the blog


  147. Despicable site for white supremacists, why bother? We don’t do ‘racial epithets’ over here. That’s your speciality, ignorance, hatred, utter nonsense!
    I’d tell people like you where to go, but heck you’re already there lol


  148. alte, you wrote:

    We know why: fatherlessness. The difference in violent crime rates disappears completely when single motherhood is taken into account. And fatherless white men are just as likely to be antisocial as fatherless black men. It trumps every other indicator: race, class, neighborhood, education level, citizenship, marital status, etc.

    Close. White males who grow up fatherless are more trouble-prone than those from in-tact families.

    Where does that view take the debate? How is fatherlessness prevented?

    How do you define “fatherlessness.”? Does it mean having a mystery dad? An anonymous father, or one the mother will not identify? A father in prison? Perhaps a known father who abandoned mother and child? A dead father?

    As with virtually all social pathologies, this one reaches the extremes among blacks.


  149. Phhhtttt. The rare times I do hear of a White rapist, here’s what I think: “Oh, a rapist. A white rapist. Bummer.” Not “Oh, an individual.”

    Get it together. What’s this gauze over your eyes?
    The issue is that blacks rape a lot more often.

    TBH, I never thought of rape as a “black thing.” The crimes I associated more often with blacks (a certain segment) were gangs and drugs. In the city where I grew up, all the rapists I heard of in the news were white, and their victims were almost always white too. Which made sense to me, since although the city was only about half white, the surrounding towns are almost all white. When I moved to a majority black town, I rarely heard of rape; mainly robberies and such. So, if I think about, rape to me was a “white thing.” It’s only until I came to this blog that I began seeing rape associated with black men almost exclusively.


  150. Natasha W:

    “TBH, I never thought of rape as a “black thing.” The crimes I associated more often with blacks (a certain segment) were gangs and drugs. In the city where I grew up, all the rapists I heard of in the news were white…”

    Same here. In all the black neighbourhoods I have lived in or know of rape was never a big issue. If it was a rough part of town it was more drugs and shootings and sometimes prostitution. So when I was talking about drug violence on another thread and RR suddenly wanted to change the subject to black rape – he even called it an epidemic – it seemed VERY ODD to me. Because in my experience it was only white men who make it into a big issue like that.

    I do not want to belittle rape, of course. It is a terrible thing. But “black rape”, as opposed to just “rape”, is a white way of looking at it. It is not something that was started by people reading DOJ reports, nor did it start with drug prohibition. It started shortly after the slaves were freed when whites were afraid of all the black men who were suddenly “on the loose”. They STILL have that fear – which is, I think, a big reason so many black men are in prison. But that is another post which I hope to write.


  151. Cannibal Rabbi:

    I deleted most of your comments. They were way off topic. Please read the comment policy:

    http://abagond.wordpress.com/comment-policy/


  152. @ Julian Lee

    Phhhtttt. The rare times I do hear of a White rapist, here’s what I think: “Oh, a rapist. A white rapist. Bummer.”

    “Get it together. What’s this gauze over your eyes?
    The issue is that blacks rape a lot more often.”

    Maybe you need this explained for you slowly. The majority of rape incidents in the United States are committed by White people. So, when you turn on your T.V., or open your newspaper, or check your local crime report, most of the rapes will have been committed by a White assailant.

    Black rape is higher PER CAPITA, which means that in order to even understand that it’s higher, you have to make an incident to population calculation—you have to do some math.

    So, the times that you hear about a White rapist is not rare, since those are the majority of the rapes in America. But it’s interesting that you think that it is.


  153. YOU LIE:

    The department of Justice 2005 report on interracial rape shows over 100 White women raped by blacks PER DAY versus somewhere between 0 and 10 black women raped by White men.

    Chances are, you’ll will delete this comment since you cannot have your blatant lying exposed.

    But that’s OK, since I’ll expose you BIG TIME elsewhere.


  154. on Sat 10 Apr 2010 at 16:17:04 Cannibal Rabbi

    I cant be bothered reading your comments “policy” as i’m sure it’s superceded by your censorship and B/S policy. The comments were right on topic as you know. They skewered your self delusion, you couldn’t take it.Chop. The irony is your comments will stay up, at incogmans site. All the sad wanna be wiggas on here. Life and unfolding events, political and economic, may conspire to deal you a harsh lesson. Good luck with that.


  155. @ no_slappz

    “As with virtually all social pathologies, this one reaches the extremes among blacks.”

    It’s funny how you always begin the story with Black modern pathologies, Native American modern pathologies, or Kanaka modern pathologies, without first referencing the Caucasian racist pathology that preceded them.

    If you began the story with: Whites brought millions of people to the Americas against there will, then tried to erase their former ethnic culture, and treated them like animals and property. If you went on to explain how even after hundreds of years of slavery, this displaced ethnic group was treated as a permanent racial underclass for another century. If you explained that it’s been about only 50 years since the civil rights movement began to take hold in America, then you might have a slightly better grip on the “extremes” in black pathologies.

    But maybe we should ask why the Native American population has a drinking problem? Oh, never mind… it’s probably genetic.


  156. Who moved the rock..?


  157. Incog Man:

    1. Learn to read. The DOJ report does not say that. The 0 to 10 refers not to the whole country but to their sample size.

    2. If you cannot be bothered to read my comment policy then I cannot be bothered to have you here. If I came to your house and refused to follow your rules, you would throw me the hell out. And rightfully so. Well, the same here.


  158. Incog Man said:

    “The comments were right on topic as you know. They skewered your self delusion, you couldn’t take it.Chop. “

    Wrong. This post is about black rape – not whatever it is you want to talk about. Black rape is used to derail other posts, so there is no way in hell I am going to put up with the very same derailing shit here.


  159. Incog Man:

    It is not your truth that is getting you in trouble here, it is your behaviour, which has BAD NEWS written all over it.


  160. @Julian Lee: The rare times I do hear of a White rapist

    Well, you sure live in a charmed world. I hear of white rapists all the time – in the news, from friends who have been raped, etc. I’ve heard of a lot more white rapists than I have heard of black rapists (at which I’m not surprised, since I’m surrounded by a lot more white people than black people).

    @AhooBetty: Sure, your suggestions about testosterone and impulse control and the like would make perfect sense, if I were constructing an imaginary fantasy world filled with elves and dwarves and trolls, and trying to explain why the trolls behaved as they do. In the real world, the one where, just a century ago, people who looked like me were in the “we all know they naturally have low IQ and don’t have much impulse control, and lets keep their immigration numbers low” bucket, and now, with no change in our testosterone levels or other biology, we’re not, I think I can discount such ideas.

    @Natasha_W: TBH, I never thought of rape as a “black thing.” The crimes I associated more often with blacks (a certain segment) were gangs and drugs.

    Yes. Not all white perceptions of black crime are elevated way out of whack to what crimes black people actually commit. Still somewhat out of whack, given the general human tendency to be biased toward our own, but not totally out of whack, because there’s some crimes that a certain segment of blacks do commit more. But rape is off in its own category, with a certain segment of white people convinced that black people rape all out of proportion to how often they actually do, and that white people fail to rape all out of proportion to how often they actually do.


  161. Abagond wrote:

    ”Based simply on the arrest numbers, it seems that black men in America commit rape at a higher rate than white men.”

    This was the issue at hand. You and many others seem to be under the impression that black crime is a figment of an overactive racist imagination, as if most racists are unhinged. The stereotypes of black criminality do have some basis in reality. That is why the stereotypes persist.

    ”But that does not prove that black men are more given to rape BECAUSE THEY ARE BLACK.”

    I don’t quite get what you mean by this. The statistical reality is that black American men rape more often, on average, than white American men in the US. Are you saying that the rape differentials with respect to race don’t have anything to do with race?

    ”Also, whatever the rate is at which black men rape women, WHITE MEN are STILL BY FAR the BIGGER THREAT – PARTICULARLY TO WHITE WOMEN.”

    While true in absolute numbers, this statement glosses over the very real racial differences in crime rates. By your line of reasoning, parents are the biggest threat to children. The reality is that some parents are more at risk of abusing their children than other groups of parents. This is similar with rape. Demographics matter. If a single woman is looking to rent an apartment, she would be well advised to take crime statistics into account when making her decision to move into a particular neighborhood.

    For example, if I measured something repeatedly and got like 1.25, 1.23, 1.25, 1.20 and 1.27, an average would probably be closer to the true value.
    But if the numbers are all over the place, like 0.3, 5.0, 1.0, 2.3 and 4.7, an average would be meaningless.

    This isn’t necessarily true. Both sets of numbers could be bogus or true, depending on the circumstances of the measurement. How well correlated are the numbers to the item being measured?

    If black rapists were some huge threat they would know it more clearly than whites would.

    You have created a straw man. The problem of black rape is not presented as being a huge threat to the white race. The problem of black crime in general is not presented as a huge threat to the white race. Black crime, including rape, is, nonetheless, a significant problem. Black crime is especially problematic given the widespread assumption that all races are the same. What is one to do when presented with data that blatantly challenges this assumption? What are we to do with this racially inspired cognitive dissonance? The hullaballoo over race no doubt seems irrational to you because you believe that the concept of race is specious in itself. Others of us view things more realistically. And realism requires a clear-eyed analysis of our situation, regardless of whether some feelings might get hurt.

    I am pretty sure that there are way more black-on-white rapes than white-on-black rapes in America. Simply because most rape is done by people the victim already knows. It is widely observed in the States that black men date white women at way higher rates than white men date black women. So that alone would drive up the rates of black-on-white rape.

    But then why don’t we see the same pattern with Asian men? Asian men in this country are more likely to know/date/marry white women than are black men (http://www.asian-nation.org/interracial.shtml), but Asian on white rape is almost unheard of.

    But does that mean black men are more given to rape? Hardly. It just means they have more opportunity.

    But black men seem to make their opportunities. Also, you are conflating interracial rape with rape in general. In general, black men are more given to rape, statistically speaking, than white men are.


  162. Lynn Gazis-Stax wrote:

    It’s not a picture that at all resembles any actual black man I’ve had occasion to interact intimately with, so the notion that the stereotype in general persists because of underlying reality doesn’t pass the smell test with me.

    You individual experiences, while important, don’t bear directly on the issue we are addressing here. We are discussing aggregates and averages. I happen to know many black men of sterling character also. This doesn’t change the fact that we (black men) commit more violent crime, like rape, on a percentage basis, than other groups of men do.

    On the other hand, it fits very neatly with the ordinary human bias we all have to believe we’re better than other people in the qualities we find important

    Humans are a highly competitive, status seeking species, so I agree with you. But humans are also, generally speaking, rational. Outright falsehoods, whether flattering to the collective ego or not, are eventually exposed for what they are. It is my belief that racial stereotypes persist because they contain some truth.

    On the other hand, the WM/BW rate you’re getting from the 2007 data still looks surprisingly low to me, and leaves me wondering if these rapes are particularly unlikely to get reported.

    Perhaps the crimes are being underreported. The methodology of the BJS might very well be flawed, but why wouldn’t black on white rape be similarly underreported? Also, the BJS reports that black criminals are about 50% less likely to have victimized a relative or intimate than white criminals and that younger men generally are more likely to victimize a stranger than older men (black men are younger on average than white men). Page 16 of Survey of State Prison Inmates (http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/SOSPI91.PDF)

    Consider, for example, the fact that white men appear to be more heavily represented, relative to black men, as child molesters (http://childprotection.lifetips.com/cat/63573/sex-offender-statistics/index.html)

    It could be true. I went to the link you specified, but the link itself did not provide a reference for the data. While trying to verify this, I ran across a number of links that referred to the Survey of State Prison Inmates, 1991 (http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/SOSPI91.PDF ) to support the assertion that 70% of convicted child molesters were white. I searched the document, albeit cursorily, but could not find anything supporting the statement that 70% of convicted child molesters were white. If you find a BJS document supporting your assertion, please cite the reference.

    white women are more likely to think they’ll be believed about being raped by black men than black women are to think they’ll be believed about being raped by white men

    Maybe, but this seems unlikely to me. It seems to me that the police have a tendency to go out of their way to pursue white victimizers of blacks, as evidenced most recently in the Duke Rape Hoax (http://www.vdare.com/stix/070113_duke.htm).

    Also, any disparity that does exist, independent of bias, could have various causes (e.g. if the crime is one particularly likely to be committed by young men, then any race whose population skews younger will commit relatively more of that crime), so, there could be racial differences that would go away if you controlled for age, or income, or some other factor.

    Ok, but so what? It does not minimize the reality of crime or the reality of the racial disparity. Ron Unz recently made this argument in the American Conservative with respect to Hispanic crime. If age is positively correlated with crime and a given population is on average younger than typical, what difference does it make to crime victims or to people looking to move into safe neighborhoods?

    you still don’t have a source immune to bias (that doesn’t exist in this sort of area)

    The idea was not to assume bias was eliminated, but to select a crime category, like rape, in which bias was minimized.


  163. Biziet wrote:

    I think you may be missing Alte’s point.
    Alte is saying that you cannot draw statistical probabilities in regard to individuals/individual crimes, based on the disparities in ethnic crime statistics. In order to make individual assessments, of any kind, you need more information than ethnicity.

    While I agree with you that statistical probabilities lose their predictive power when applied to individuals, I disagree that I missed Alte’s point. I don’t think Alte’s remarks pertained to individual characteristics at all. Alte seemed to be saying that the conclusions reached by some regarding racial differences in criminal propensity are too simple and that we need to take into account a much larger array of information (age, employment status, marriage status, regional status etc.) before we can draw meaningful conclusions regarding crime. I disagree with that. We can draw meaningful conclusions regarding crime by observing who/whom, i.e. who does what to whom.


  164. on Sat 10 Apr 2010 at 17:46:09 Cannibal Rabbi

    Your comment is awaiting moderation

    Why?


  165. Abagond wrote:

    So when I was talking about drug violence on another thread and RR suddenly wanted to change the subject to black rape – he even called it an epidemic – it seemed VERY ODD to me. Because in my experience it was only white men who make it into a big issue like that.

    If you remember correctly, you were not just talking about drug violence. YOU BLAMED THE POLICE FOR THE VIOLENCE IN BLACK NEIGHBORHOODS. You original remarks are show below:

    It means that the police will push drug violence into YOUR neighbourhood and then do little to stop it. You know, because who the fuck cares if black people die.

    And I wrote in response:
    You are being hysterical now. The police PUSH DRUG VIOLENCE INTO BLACK NEIGHBORHOODS???!!! So, the police are the ultimate source of drug violence in black communities? This is ridiculous on its face. But even if I take what you say at face value, what about the large amount of other types of violence, like rape, that occurs in black neighborhoods? Are white cops causing black men to rape black women in black neighborhoods too?

    We wrote about rape for awhile in the “equality” thread where you wrote that you would dedicate a post to rape statistics. And here we are. I did not “suddenly” change the subject to black rape. The subject we were discussing was the cause of violence in black neighborhoods.


  166. RR,

    Almost, but not quite. People are subject to confirmation bias, which means they seek out examples that confirm beliefs that they already hold. So while it may be true that some Black man raped some woman on X day at X time, that doesn’t necessarily make it true that Black men rape more than usual, because the average stereotype holder is biased to look for information that compliments his/her beliefs and ignore that which doesn’t.


  167. Cannibal Rabbi said:

    “Your comment is awaiting moderation

    Why?”

    Because you could not be bothered to read the comment policy, you have no idea how things work. So now you want me to spoon feed you. Well, fuck that.


  168. Jasmin,

    I agree with what you say, but the data we are discussing are the results of a victim survey (primarily). The people in the survey presumably presented their experiences as they perceived them. What they perceived was that black men rape women at higher rates than white men rape women. Now, many of the women may have misperceived the race of their attackers in some of the cases, but Americans, are pretty good at determining whether someone is black or white as race is defined in this country.


  169. RR,

    I agree with your last sentence, but that circumstance is mitigated by eyewitness testimony, which pretty much sucks. It’s not uncommon for people to incorrectly report the race of someone committing a crime (sometimes deliberately for social desirability, sometimes unconsciously because of how the brain works), so there’s really too little information, and too much emphasis on self-report, to “know” for sure.


  170. Jasmin,

    Ok, you don’t believe the victims. Do you disbelieve them all? Do you really think that a large percentage of them misidentified the race of their attackers? For the sake of argument, let’s assume you are correct. But then, what of arrest statistics? Are rape arrests also subject to the same degree of racial bias? Just looking at black on black rape for a minute. Before anyone can be arrested for a rape, his description must be given to the police. Do you believe that black women regularly misidentify black men to the police?


  171. Sounds like JAYLOVE47 is experiencing racial cognitive dissonance like a m*f*! I can understand Jay’s sentiments and even identify with them to some extent, but he is being unfair. Blacks do not choose to live the way we do. Blacks do not like living in slums. There is no reason to hate people, especially black people. I don’t think we conscienously chose to create bad neighborhoods. The following conditions/events have conspired to thwart our aspirations:

    1) Liberal attack against morality (i.e. Christianity, law and order, sexual restraint).

    2) Unfettered immigration.

    3) Low average IQ.

    At the moment, there isn’t much we can do about 3, but 1 and 2 can definitely be addressed. And here, I have to blame white people. 1 and 2 are great for many white people (and a few blacks), so they support these policies, all the while claiming to be “Friends of the Black Man”. Baloney! This is total crap. Unfortunately, I fear that whites aren’t going to wake up until the country has been destroyed. Fuckin’ white bastards! Ooops. I apologize. To all you fuckin’ wh…., I mean to all my Caucasian brothers and sisters who are offended by my remarks, I truely regret that you are offended. I’ m just trying to keep it real here.


  172. on Sat 10 Apr 2010 at 18:51:50 Cannibal Rabbi

    Out of the last two vids i posted you removed the one with the thoughtful, reflective black guy. And leave up the one with the inhuman monster? Then you resort to profanity over a humourous trifle. ‘sup?


  173. In charged discussions about racial disparities in a given problem behavior, people often take one of two different stances. Either they 1) use statistics as a basis for lambasting the members of the group alleged to engage in the behavior disproportionately or 2) they attempt to discredit the statistics entirely, regardless of their likely validity. I disagree with both of these dispositions. The proper way to approach an issue like this is to make a reasonable assessment of the accuracy of the statistics and then, if they are judged reliable, to soberly reflect on ways to improve the situation.


  174. @ RR

    “Alte seemed to be saying that the conclusions reached by some regarding racial differences in criminal propensity are too simple and that we need to take into account a much larger array of information (age, employment status, marriage status, regional status etc.) before we can draw meaningful conclusions regarding crime. I disagree with that.”

    Alte is correct. Rape statistics represent raw datum. The problem comes when people think that they have the ability to draw broad conclusions from the figures without applying the necessary controls that would be necessarily applied in a peer-reviewed academic model. (a key question to always ask is whether the people who actually collected the data came to the same conclusions as the amateur theorist, or is this their very own idea, imposed upon someone else’s numbers)

    The rank amateur usually takes very limited information (totally raw numbers) and without testing for extenuating circumstances, and/or alternate causal effects, they extrapolate conclusions based on their own held theories. This creates a hybrid of scientifically gathered datum, filtered through thoroughly unscientific methodology, which, of course, produces unscientific conclusions.

    In other words, it’s what stupid people do when they’re given access to numbers that they don’t understand. Now, I don’t think that you’re stupid, but I’d certainly apply that assessment to a few people up the thread.

    For example, if I were to tell you that most crimes were committed by right-handed people, would you be surprised? But what if I told you that left-handed people commit less crimes, but at a higher rate, as compared to their percentage of the population?

    Would you draw the conclusion that “leftness” is some kind of indicator or criminal propensity, or would you think it an interesting fact, but worthy of a lot more study before any such conclusions were drawn?

    What if I were to tell you that most crimes were committed by people under six feet tall, or by men with dark hair, or by people who weigh less than 190 pounds, or by those 35 and younger?

    OK, so what if I told you that individuals with a certain amount of melanin in their skin committed a higher percentage of crimes, as compared to their percentage of the population? Are you still ready to draw your conclusions, or are you ready to defer your judgements, and start asking more questions, as Alte is suggesting?


  175. @RR: But then why don’t we see the same pattern with Asian men? Asian men in this country are more likely to know/date/marry white women than are black men

    There are fewer Asian men than black men in this country, so, however much more higher the percentage of Asian men may know/date/marry white women than the percentage of black men who do, you still get practically twice as many white women married to black men as to Asian men. Hence, from the white woman’s point of view, more black men than Asian men who have social access to her. (The percentages are reversed for white men marrying out only because white men so overwhelmingly choose Asian women over black women.)

    If you find a BJS document supporting your assertion, please cite the reference.

    It turns out to be amazingly difficult to find any sort of offender characteristics for child sex abuse crimes on the BJS site; I’m giving up on searching, since exactly how many white men are pedophiles is a side issue in this thread anyway. It also turns out that most references I find at medical sites profiling pedophile characteristics fail to give any racial data at all; I gave up searching there, as well. I did manage to find nice sexy pictures of black men with blonde women while doing my search; those turn out to be lots easier to find on Google than well referenced crime statistics of any kind. (But further down I’ll tell you what I did find.)

    While trying to verify this, I ran across a number of links that referred to the Survey of State Prison Inmates, 1991 (http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/SOSPI91.PDF ) to support the assertion that 70% of convicted child molesters were white. I searched the document, albeit cursorily, but could not find anything supporting the statement that 70% of convicted child molesters were white.

    I can’t find it, either, skimming the document (though maybe whatever phrase they’re referencing is just so little emphasized that it takes more than skimming to find it). I did see information that would be consistent with a higher representation of white offenders among child molesters than among other offenses (e.g. white offenders more likely to know their victims, which tends to be true of child molesters), and also, what surprised me more, this, on page 15:

    Among violent inmates, a higher percentage of
    whites (76%) than blacks (60%) or Hispanics (63%)
    injured their victims. These differences largely reflect
    the higher percentage of white inmates (33%) who
    raped or sexually assaulted their victims compared
    to black (14%) or Hispanic inmates (16%).

    However, don’t completely despair of getting any racial data on child molesting; I did find for you this reference:

    http://www.mincava.umn.edu/documents/sexoff/sexoff.html

    In it, Lawrence A. Greenfeld, Statistician, Bureau of Justice Statistics, Office of Justice Programs, U.S. Department of Justice, reports on “Sex Offenses and Offenders: An Analysis of Data on Rape and Sexual Assault.” The relevant bit is the comparison between racial data for rape and racial data for “other sexual offenses,” which I figure would be where all the child molesting would go. If you do a search of the document, you should be able to find the following:

    The racial distribution of arrestees for rape is similar to the racial distribution for all violent UCR arrests–56% of arrestees for rape in 1995 were white, 42% were black, and 2% were of other races. White arrestees accounted for a substantially larger share of those arrested for other sex offenses, composing 75% of those arrested for these types of offenses in 1995.

    So, black men, for whatever reason, are proportionally more likely to get convicted of rape, and white men, for whatever reason, are proportionally more likely to get convicted of “other sexual offenses,” according to a Bureau of Justice statistician.

    With that, I’m going to retire from this thread, since there’s only so much searching of crime statistics I’m willing to do on a sunny California day.


  176. king, you wrote:

    It’s funny how you always begin the story with Black modern pathologies, Native American modern pathologies, or Kanaka modern pathologies, without first referencing the Caucasian racist pathology that preceded them.

    Yeah, yeah, yeah. Slavery ended 150 years ago and since then immigration of blacks to this horrifying country has sped past slavery as the chief source of new black residents. Find a new excuse.

    You wrote:

    If you began the story with: Whites brought millions of people to the Americas against there will…

    The Nazis exterminated One-Third of all the Jews in the world in campaign that ended in 1945. One-Third of all Jews in the world.

    Despite the near annihilation, Jews have managed to do what they have done throughout history — build their lives using their inherent strengths.

    No Jews are forgetting the Holocaust, but no Jews use it as an excuse for dropping out of high school, committing crimes, substance abuse or leaving children fatherless.


  177. RR,

    You seem to use “disbelieve” to suggest I’m accusing victims of lying. Not so (though there are false rape accusations, of course). What I’m saying is that eyewitness testimony is faulty, hence why it’s never solely relied on in convictions.

    I’m confused by your point re: arrests. Arrests and convictions are 2 different things, and neither is necessarily indicative of guilt. Police can (and do) arrest people in suspicion, or probable cause, all the time, and if someone is resistant they can always charge “obstruction of justice”. So by itself, I’m not sure what number of arrests can tell us about likelihood of having committed a crime.


  178. @ no_slappz

    Hahaha! Yeah, when slavery ended, so did prejudice, institutionalized economic oppression, and deliberate, one-sided, racial unfairness? It was all done with 150 years ago!!! C’mon, fire a synapse, why don’t you?

    Even after laws were changes, in the 1960s, it took decades before public attitudes, and social inertia caught up to the legislation. And there are still residuals of the old prejudice lingering around today. Has a lot been accomplished in this country re: race relations and social justice? Yes, very clearly it has. But to point toward slavery emancipation as the waymarker for an expected recovery, is to display an appalling and absolute ignorance of history.

    “Hey the JEW is doing great…yada yada”
    Are you really this obtuse? Extermination is not the same thing as exclusion/marginalization. Extermination is far worse, but exclusion results in a different outcome. If a person survives and attempt at extermination, then they may recover (financially and socially) but if you define a person as less intelligent, and incapable of certain achievements, then they cannot recover in the society until those ideas have been defeated. Each case of an ethnic group being oppressed (or exterminated) by White people is different. The Jews who lived in America, during WWII were not being exterminated and were thus, still able to conduct business that Black people were excluded from.

    I’m not saying that all the problems of Black American are the results of White oppression, because Black culture has a lot to answer for, as well. But just let’s not forget the overall context in which these things occur.


  179. Jasmin said to RR:

    “Arrests and convictions are 2 different things, and neither is necessarily indicative of guilt.”

    Right, it is known as innocent till proven guilty. The police have been known to make mistakes.


  180. Jasmin,

    I don’t believe you think victims of rape are lying. I think you allow for the possibility of a victims misperception of her attacker’s race. It seems to me that you believe these sorts of misperceptions are rampant among black women who have participated in the victim surveys.

    Regarding arrests, and let’s look at arrests as separate from convictions, it requires a woman (a black woman in this case), to report a crime (rape) before the police attempt to find an alleged perpetrator. My point is that, assuming an alleged victim is not lying about having been attacked and she identifies a black man as her attacker, then a black man has committed rape. The police might arrest the wrong individual or the woman may ID the wrong black guy, but the race of the alleged perp will not change and the reality of his crime (assuming the crime actually occurred) will not change. This is why arrest rates wrt rape are important. It gives some indication of who/whom: who does what to whom. It seems to me that very few women would lie to the police about rape. It does happen, obviously, but my impression is that it is an infrequent occurrence. So, if an outsized number of black women report that they were raped by black men, it gives some indication of the prevalence of rape among blacks.


  181. List of Rape Myths

    Myth: “Most offenders are African-American men.

    Fact: Over 90% of sexual assaults occur between people of the same ethnic or racial background. The myth of the black rapist is rooted to the racist history of our country.

    http://www.houseofruthdothan.org/rapemyths.htm

    And again

    http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jhamlin/3925/myths.html


  182. J:

    Right, just what I have been saying.

    Something said in the second link:

    ” Myth: Rapists are non-white. Rapists are lower class. Rapists are “Criminal types”.

    Fact: Rapists that fit the myth are more likely to be prosecuted but a rapist can be anyone: doctor, policeman, clergyman, social worker or corporate president.”


  183. okay white boys you win. black men commit more rapes. are you happy now? does your white skin look better to you now? i know if were white and i had to look at that pale ugly color all day i would try to make myself feel better too by telling lies on black men.


  184. Lynn Gazis-Sax,

    I have to strongly disagree with your assertion that black men have more social access to white women than Asian men do. Black men have higher rates of incarceration than Asian men, which obviously removes them from the dating pool for white woman. Black men also have higher mortality rates which has a tendency to lessen black male/white female interaction. Then there is the issue of college attendance and employment, areas in which Asian men have proven themselves to be much more eligible than black men. Given these facts, I think white women are much more likely to encounter Asian men in their social circles than black men.

    You wrote:
    “So, black men, for whatever reason, are proportionally more likely to get convicted of rape, and white men, for whatever reason, are proportionally more likely to get convicted of “other sexual offenses,” according to a Bureau of Justice statistician.”

    I agree with the first part of your statement, but the second part is questionable. Minnesota, as of the 2000 census, was 92% white. Blacks constituted approximately 4% of the population. So, even if 75% of those convicted of “other sexual offenses” were white, whites would be disproportionally underrepresented in this category. The document does not give the figure for the percentage of blacks convicted of “other sexual offenses”, but I think we can safely assume that, given the disproportionally high percentage of blacks convicted of rape in Minnesota (10x their share of the population), it is at least double the percentage of the black population in the state. So, on a percentage basis, blacks are more likely to get convicted of “other sexual offenses” than whites.


  185. And if we being very honest…rape is essentially a ‘male crime’ and any attempt to ‘de-construct’ the matter as if certain members of males from a certan race can be ‘absolved” above another is pandering to the ‘rape myths’ and also reinforcing racist stereotypes at the same time.


  186. King,

    You wrote:

    ” Rape statistics represent raw datum. The problem comes when people think that they have the ability to draw broad conclusions from the figures without applying the necessary controls that would be necessarily applied in a peer-reviewed academic model.”

    Average folk don’t need all that mumbo-jumbo. Most of us aren’t all that interested in the causes of crime. We just want to be safe from it. So, raw crime data, without high-falutin’ analysis by propeller heads, is all that is required for most people to determine whether it is safe for them to live in a particular area.

    ” But what if I told you that left-handed people commit less crimes, but at a higher rate, as compared to their percentage of the population?
    Would you draw the conclusion that “leftness” is some kind of indicator or criminal propensity, or would you think it an interesting fact, but worthy of a lot more study before any such conclusions were drawn?

    Now you are cookin’ with gas! That’s the ticket. Jump on the RR crime avoidance funk train wit yo bad slef! I most certainly WOULD think left-handedness was an indicator of criminal propensity, ON AVERAGE. If there was an at a glance indicator of handedness and lefties were to live among themselves in particular neighborhoods, I would probably avoid those neighborhoods. Of course, this would be dependent on the degree of correlation between left-handedness and crime. If lefties only committed 5% more crime than righties, then the correlation would be an interesting fact. If it were 30%, that would be startling, and I would avoid crowds of lefties. Of course, some of my best friends are lefties. I happen to be a product of a mixed-handed marriage and I am ambidextrous, which allows me to relate to my downtrodden lefty brothers. Maybe, one day, I will run for president so the country can transcend handedness. I had a dream that one day left-handed children and right-handed children will all come to together and soul clap to the tune of that old Negro spiritual “Car Wash”, by Rose Royce. I love that song! I know all the words. I’ll clap and sing it at odd times. My wife thinks I’m crazy, but what does she know. She is a lefty!

    OK, so what if I told you that individuals with a certain amount of melanin in their skin committed a higher percentage of crimes, as compared to their percentage of the population? Are you still ready to draw your conclusions, or are you ready to defer your judgements, and start asking more questions, as Alte is suggesting?

    Alte is not asking the right type of questions. Alte seeks to dodge the reality of racial differences by assuming that everything is related to everything and that nothing can be concluded until everything is known. My questions, in order of importance, would be the following:

    1)To what degree are the high melanin folks committing crime. Is it 5% more than the typical group? 30% more? 50% more?

    2)Are we talking about people of West African descent? Which group has the greatest percentage of melanin?


  187. All the sad wanna be wiggas on here. Life and unfolding events, political and economic, may conspire to deal you a harsh lesson.</em?

    the only harsh lessons here is your ignorant caterwauling! What 'wiggas"?

    Then you resort to profanity over a humourous trifle. ’sup?

    Humourous trifle indeed! It’s his blog, he can say what he wants. In fact, I find him to be tame in his cursing. Too bad!

    “The comments were right on topic as you know. They skewered your self delusion, you couldn’t take it.Chop. “

    Here’s a ‘skewed’ comment for you; “Blow it out your hole”!

    Fuckin’ white bastards! Ooops. I apologize. To all you fuckin’ wh…., I mean to all my Caucasian brothers and sisters who are offended by my remarks, I truely regret that you are offended. I’ m just trying to keep it real here.

    RR, this is uncharacteristic of you! What ever disagreements I may have with your comments, you have been for the most part polite! Has your IQ deteriorated or have you been drinking?

    In all the black neighbourhoods I have lived in or know of rape was never a big issue.

    Same here. It is drugs and drugs related murders that have been the majority of crimes with black perpetrators. In my experience, most of the rapists and diddlers, have been white. I have observed this over a number of years at close quarters. And no, I am not going to quote statistics! I find it bizarre that some of these respondents are obsessed with these ‘statistics’ from a sexual point of view. Admit it, if you are secretly attracted to black men, no need to hide your attraction to them by spewing rape statistics to cover it up! Get on with it!

    It started shortly after the slaves were freed when whites were afraid of all the black men who were suddenly “on the loose”. They STILL have that fear – which is, I think, a big reason so many black men are in prison.

    Bingo!!!!


  188. Thanks for the links, J. It was a very good read.


  189. Not Googling anything new, and confining my activity on this thread to correcting misinterpretations of things I’ve already said.

    @RR: I have to strongly disagree with your assertion that black men have more social access to white women than Asian men do.

    That’s because you’re perversely failing to understand what I actually said. I said that, for any given white woman, the number of black men who have social access to her will on average be larger than the number of Asian men who have social access to her, and that the reason for this is the fact that there are more black men than Asian men in the US. (As it happens, this isn’t true of me personally, since I live in California and work in the computer industry. But there are a whole lot of white women who live in areas where there aren’t that many Asians.) And the evidence for this is the fact that, if you look at percentages of white women in interracial marriages (rather than percentages of Asian or black men marrying white women), you find that a higher percentage of white women are married to black men than to Asian men. Unless you assume that white women are strangely eager to marry men to whom they have no social access, you have to figure that the absolute number of black men with social access to white women is probably larger than the absolute number of Asian men with social access to white women, and that any interactions, good or bad, from the white woman’s point of view ought to show more black than Asian men.

    I agree with the first part of your statement, but the second part is questionable. Minnesota, as of the 2000 census, was 92% white.

    You’re assuming that the data is from Minnesota, because the URL is at the University of Minnesota, but it looks to me as if the University of Minnesota is reporting on national data. The country as a whole isn’t 92% white. More like two thirds white.


  190. RR,

    Misperceptions aren’t common just in this context; they are common across crimes and situations. So I don’t think people are any more or any less likely to make errors (which are often subconscious) in this situation than in any other.

    I’m still confused about your point on arrests. Let’s say one neighborhood has 10 arrests a day, and another one has 3 arrests a day. Neighborhood B seems safer, until you find out that those 10 arrests are of the same person in Neighborhood A, while those 3 arrests are all different people in Neighborhood B. Arrests are not discrete, so number of arrests does not equal number of perpetrators. And that still doesn’t solve the problem of arrests not equaling convictions. (We could go on about how being found “guilty” in court is not equal to “guilt” in the objective sense of actually having committed the crime one is accused of, but I think you get the idea.)


  191. “Average folk don’t need all that mumbo-jumbo… So, raw crime data, without high-falutin’ analysis by propeller heads, is all that is required for most people…”

    A common fallacy actually. The “mumbo jumbo” of a statistician making sense of the statistics is the only thing that stops us from making stupid assumptions based on our own uninformed interpretations. The big problem is that people think that simple = straightforward. Often, it does not. If the subject of study is complicated, or nuanced, then the truth about it may be just as complexed.

    “Now you are cookin’ with gas! That’s the ticket. Jump on the RR crime avoidance funk train wit yo bad slef! I most certainly WOULD think left-handedness was an indicator of criminal propensity, ON AVERAGE.”

    Yes, but you would be wrong. Left-handedness would not be an indicator of criminal propensity. ON AVERAGE doesn’t really mean anything, on an individual level. It seems as if you are leaning toward the idea of collective responsibility.

    It’s as if there were two large families, one with 8 brothers, and another with 12. Let’s call them the Johnsons (8) and the Smiths (12) Now, let’s say that 3 of the Johnson boys were criminals, and 4 of Smith boys were as well.

    Now, just imagine if the Smiths went around town saying, that you couldn’t trust the Johnsons, because they are criminal types. Some people would be bound to point out that the Smiths had criminals in their family too. But then the Smiths would angrily argue that a LARGER PERCENTAGE of the Johnsons were criminals. Can you see where I’m going?

    So, some of the people in town (like you) began to do the math, and discovered that although the Smiths had more total criminals in the family, that the Johnsons had a higher percentage of criminals in theirs, because they has a smaller family than the Smiths. So they decided that in order to be safe, they should just avoid ALL the Johnsons. The other Johnson brothers pleaded that they were not criminals, and were, in fact, the biggest victims of their brother’s crimes. But hey… they had the same last name so…

    Based on the raw statistics, it was more likely that a Johnson would rob you than anyone else in town. The Johnson family crime figures were the highest, PER CAPITA, although, as an inconsequential aside, the Smiths actually stole more stuff by sheer volume.

    And that is how your amateur statistics work out. Now a professional might suggest that you forget about identifying the threat based on race… oops, I meant family name, and simply identify which brothers of each family were actually criminals and which were not.

    But, as you said, average folks don’t need that mumbo jumbo.


  192. Abagond, or whatever your name is:

    No, you learn to read. From my article (PDF link from DOJ backing me up, below):

    In Table 42, entitled “Personal crimes of violence, 2005, percent distribution of single-offender victimisation’s, based on race of victims, by type of crime and perceived race of offender,” we learn that there were 111,590 white victims and 36,620 black victims of rape or sexual assault in 2005. (The number of rapes is not distinguished from those of sexual assaults; it is maddening that sexual assault, an ill-defined category that covers various types of criminal acts ranging from penetration to inappropriate touching, is conflated with the more specific crime of rape.) In the 111,590 cases in which the victim of rape or sexual assault was white, 44.5 percent of the offenders were white, and 33.6 percent of the offenders were black.

    In the 36,620 cases in which the victim of rape or sexual assault was black, 100 percent of the offenders were black, and 0.0 percent of the offenders were white. The table explains that 0.0 percent means that there were under 10 incidents nationally.

    I had to find the PDF again since the DOJ changed the link, but go here readers: http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/cvus05.pdf

    Readers: Scroll to Table 42 for some in your face facts.

    Also, go here to my original article on the subject:

    http://incogman.wordpress.com/2008/02/19/what-you-dont-know-could-get-you-raped/

    This person is obviously changing stuff around, because SHE’S THE RACIST and ANTI-White.

    Whites: Just hink about what goes on in your region. At least 10 White women are raped by blacks every month in my area alone. Almost never do we hear of the other way around.

    During 2005, over 100 White women were raped by black male strangers in the US.

    Per capita, blacks are the most crime prone and violent race in America. For every 3 blacks you meet, 1 will end up in jail. Think about that: Almost 33%.

    I’ve done plenty of research into this.

    I’ve seen White women crying their eyes out, while their feet are up in the stirrups, getting the rape test done. Bruised and battered by some crazed black looking for some fast fun with a whitey. Little old ladies, too.

    We’ve plain sick and tired of black behavior in the US. And we’re tired of your militant lies, too.

    The day will soon come, you best believe it.


  193. Oh, so you’re going to moderate my comments, huh? Too scared to let others coming here read the truth?


  194. Another two things to bear in mind is the population differences. Blacks have a smaller base population than Whites. Per capita, blacks are far more likely to commit crime. Look at prisons, for chrissakes.

    Also, a very big thing is that the Department of Justice crime figures incorporate HISPANIC perps into the White numbers.

    Say what?

    Oh, yes. White Perps also include illegal aliens.


  195. Lynn Gazis-Sax,

    I think I did understand you correctly (and even if I didn’t, I don’t see what would be perverse about such a view). The problem is that your explanation was flawed. You wrote:

    ” I said that, for any given white woman, the number of black men who have social access to her will on average be larger than the number of Asian men who have social access to her, and that the reason for this is the fact that there are more black men than Asian men in the US. “

    You are assuming that exposure is tantamount to access. A given white woman might be more casually exposed to black men in a setting such as a train station, a store or on the street than Asian men due to the differences in population numbers, but exposure is not the same as social access. This is especially true in highly racially segregated areas, which holds for most of the US. Many people meet their significant others in one of four places:

    1) At school.
    2) At work.
    3) Where they live.
    4) Where they play.

    Being that Asian men are, generally speaking, more integrated than black men in terms of education, employment, law abidedness, and locality, I believe that Asian men have more social access to white women than black men do. Additionally, people tend to socialize with and date/marry people of similar intellectual temperament and achievement. Given that the IQ difference between blacks and whites is greater than the difference between whites and Asians, whites are more likely to encounter Asians socially than they are likely to encounter blacks.

    And the evidence for this is the fact that, if you look at percentages of white women in interracial marriages (rather than percentages of Asian or black men marrying white women), you find that a higher percentage of white women are married to black men than to Asian men.

    Of course. It stands to reason that since black male/white female couples out-number Asian male/white female couples that a higher percentage of white women marry black men than Asian men. You are not really making much of a point. A more germane argument could be made with respect to the interracial access rate for black men and black women. Black women, due to their higher high school attendance and graduation rates, higher college attendance and graduation rates, higher employment rates, lower incarceration rates, lower addiction rates, and lower mortality rates, have higher social access to whites than black men do. Yet, despite this, black men date and marry whites at a significantly higher percentage than black women do. The absolute numbers are higher also, and this with a slightly smaller population of black males compared to black females.

    Unless you assume that white women are strangely eager to marry men to whom they have no social access, you have to figure that the absolute number of black men with social access to white women is probably larger than the absolute number of Asian men with social access to white women, and that any interactions, good or bad, from the white woman’s point of view ought to show more black than Asian men.

    You are making a wild assumption here. As I showed with the case of black women, increased social access does not necessarily translate into increased dating/marriage rates or increases in absolute numbers of pairings. The converse is true for the Asian male/white female and black male/white female comparison. Increased absolute marriage numbers do not necessarily translate into greater social access. It could mean that black men are more successful with white women than their marital eligibility numbers (education, employment, incarceration etc.) would indicate, as compared to Asian men, who nonetheless, marry white women at greater rates than black men.

    Even if we were to assume that what you say is true (that black men have more social access to white women than Asian men do), it still doesn’t explain why Asian men don’t rape white women to any measurable extent. This is true in areas with lots of horny eligible Asian guys and lots of hard drinking white women, like Northern California or Wall Street.

    You’re assuming that the data is from Minnesota, because the URL is at the University of Minnesota, but it looks to me as if the University of Minnesota is reporting on national data. The country as a whole isn’t 92% white. More like two thirds white.

    You are right. I stand corrected.


  196. “Per capita, blacks are far more likely to commit crime. Look at prisons, for chrissakes.”

    Actually, that’s incorrect.

    The figures indicate that black criminals are arrested for crimes at a higher per capita rate. They don’t say anything about the likelyhood of black person to commit crime.

    Besides I said that above.


  197. @ Incog Man, John, Eric and anyone who thinks black men rape 40,000 white women every year:

    Incog Man said:

    “In the 36,620 cases in which the victim of rape or sexual assault was black, 100 percent of the offenders were black, and 0.0 percent of the offenders were white. The table explains that 0.0 percent means that there were under 10 incidents nationally.”

    That is just where you are wrong: there were fewer than 10 IN THEIR SURVEY SAMPLE. They do not call everyone in the country, but some statistically large enough sample. But in some of the permutations, like interracial rape (or, at least in the 2006 survey I saw, black rape of any sort) there were fewer then ten cases in their sample. Hardly enough to base any firm conclusions on.


  198. Incog Man:

    “Oh, so you’re going to moderate my comments, huh? Too scared to let others coming here read the truth?”

    No, I am not too scared to hear what you have to say. Give me a break. You are too dumb or too much of a jerkwad to read the comment policy.

    This post is about black rape and you come on here wanting to talk about STDs and black men beating up old white women – without ANY EFFORT (until much later after I deleted them) to tie it to the subject at hand.


  199. King,

    You wrote:
    Yes, but you would be wrong. Left-handedness would not be an indicator of criminal propensity. ON AVERAGE doesn’t really mean anything, on an individual level. It seems as if you are leaning toward the idea of collective responsibility.

    As I have stated previously in this thread, averages lose their predictive power when applied to individuals (although they are useful if the averages are produced by and are applicable to individuals, like individual batting average). But if left-handedness were in fact correlated with criminality, it would have significance.

    It’s as if there were two large families, one with 8 brothers, and another with 12. Let’s call them the Johnsons (8) and the Smiths (12) Now, let’s say that 3 of the Johnson boys were criminals, and 4 of Smith boys were as well.

    I like where you are going with your argument. Rap on.

    So, some of the people in town (like you) began to do the math, and discovered that although the Smiths had more total criminals in the family, that the Johnsons had a higher percentage of criminals in theirs, because they has a smaller family than the Smiths. So they decided that in order to be safe, they should just avoid ALL the Johnsons.

    Your argument just went off the rails. How would I avoid all Johnsons? Those bastards might find me, despite my efforts. I have a better hypothetical situation:

    What if there was a town composed of two families: one large extended family that inbred to some degree named White and another large extended family that inbred to some degree named Black. The Whites numbered 100k while the Blacks numbered 13k. These Whites and Blacks don’t get along so they segregate themselves in separate contiguous areas of town. Due to the nature of the work, you are required to live in this town. As you are researching neighborhoods, you discover that the Whites were responsible for 58% of violent crime in town. The Blacks were responsible for 42% of violent crime. Again, remembering that the town is highly segregated and the neighborhoods are contiguous, which area do you choose to live in?

    I will tell you what my wife would do. She would realize that, despite the fact that the Whites commit a larger percentage of violent crime and are more numerous than the Blacks, she would run the numbers and discover that the rate of violent crime committed by the Blacks was 6.5 times that of the Whites. She would insist that, if we had to live in this town that we live with the Whites, because the probability of becoming a victim is lower on the White side of town than on the Black side. Note that my wife’s decision would have nothing to do with individuals. She would be playing the averages, like most people, but her decision would probably keep us safer than the alternative.


  200. You are making a wild assumption here. As I showed with the case of black women, increased social access does not necessarily translate into increased dating/marriage rates or increases in absolute numbers of pairings.

    Um, your whole argument for why white women should experience a larger number of rapes by Asian men than by black men, as stated upthread, was:

    Asian men in this country are more likely to know/date/marry white women than are black men

    So, the fact that white women make up a larger percentage of the Asian men’s dating population is supposed to be relevant, but the fact that black men make up a larger percentage of white women’s dating population, is supposed to be totally irrelevant? Has nothing whatsoever to do with who white women are more often alone with? The fact that black men make up a larger percentage of the population as a whole than Asian men is also irrelevant? There should be more Asian men raping white women than black men raping white women, even though there are way more black men than Asian men in the US to begin with, because Asian men score higher than average on some IQ test?

    Your argument doesn’t make a lick of sense.

    Frankly, given what Abagond says about the size of the samples and the low numbers that leaves for any of the interracial rape categories, I’d be surprised if they get enough Asian-Americans in the sample to make interracial rape estimates involving them at all statistically useful. There’s only so much you can get out of a sample of a given size, for statistical groupings that are going to be small to begin with; it’s just not going to be a sample large enough to draw statistically significant conclusions about the things you’re trying to read into it.


  201. Many people here simply in denial. DOJ statistics prove that a black male is far more likely to commit rape than a white male. This is simply undeniable. The disproportion of black-on-white rape — given their lesser numbers — has only gotten worse since the earlier studies. White people, get a brain.

    Interracial Rape Statistics

    http://library.flawlesslogic.com/rape.htm


  202. The most prolific rapists in this country have all been white men. From John Wayne Gacy to Ted Bundy. Not making this as an argument of ‘Hurr lolz whitez rape more den blacks!1″ but it just shows how people distort reality to justify their racism.


  203. I meant to say in the sentence “During 2005, over 100 White women were raped by black male strangers in the US…” EVERY DAY.

    Now, this is 2005 DOJ statistics. Forgive me for not studying years since then. However, I strongly believe it’s the same thing.

    The US media and the US government does everything they can to obfuscate the real facts. Like including hispanic numbers with the Whites. This skews things so blacks don’t look as bad as they do.

    You can simply go to my embedded link from the DOJ and look at the figures, while bearing in mind the population differences.

    If 36,620 rapes and sexual crimes (they don’t separate them out) are black perps from a 14 million population, versus 111,490 White sex crimes from a 100 million + population (including hispanics), then the PER CAPITA situation shows itself to anyone with a clear brain.

    Table 42 right here:

    http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/cvus05.pdf

    Scroll down to Rape/Sexual assaults.

    It also shows that WHITE on black crimes of this nature are somewhere between 0 and 10, statistically meaning it never happens for White men to commit this kind of crime on a black woman (I can see that).

    But it’s not just sexual assaults. Blacks ARE violent and murderous. Just take a drive in the hood.

    Us openly “racist” Whiteys are growing more and more. Soon, it will spread like wildfire. Enjoy the future.


  204. White people, get a brain.

    You mean they didn’t have any to start? There have been brainless morons, aka whites, posting here all the time? If that’s so, that would explain the idiocy contained in posts like you, Incog Man, ahooBetty, Peter Lerman, Rabbi and their ilk! Good advice! Get a brain indeed!

    Any squirmy “honkies”, “crackas” at this site feel free to visit and be enlightened, at this location. You too of course Albagond

    You got the ‘lingo down pat don’t you onanist? If I want to be enlightened, I’ll go turn a light on, it would effect the same outcome-nothing.


  205. @Herneith:

    White people, get a brain.

    You mean they didn’t have any to start? There have been brainless morons, aka whites, posting here all the time? If that’s so, that would explain the idiocy contained in posts like you, Incog Man, ahooBetty, Peter Lerman, Rabbi and their ilk! Good advice! Get a brain indeed!

    LMAO! Oh, girl, you’re too much! ;-) The getting a brain part reminds me of the Scarecrow from The Wizard Of Oz.


  206. “Your argument just went off the rails. How would I avoid all Johnsons? Those bastards might find me, despite my efforts.”

    You couldn’t… but I didn’t say that you could, I simply said that you would decide (attempt) to do so, which would make perfect sense and is the point that you are missing.

    You see, once you’ve calculated that black people, en masse, are a threat, then you should avoid the threat to the best of your ability.

    So, in addition to certainly not moving into a black neighborhood, you should also:

    1) Not hire any black people at your place of business.
    2) Not allow black people into your social clubs
    3) Keep blacks out of your schools!
    4) Refuse business with blacks, unless absolutely necessary
    5) OBVIOUSLY don’t EVER marry one!!!

    It’s unklanny! All of this makes perfect sense, once you paint all African-Americans with the same black brush, and assume them to be a threat, based on the DOJ figures on black criminals.

    OR you can assume that criminality is a behavior, not a racial feature.

    “These Whites and Blacks don’t get along so they segregate themselves in separate contiguous areas of town. Due to the nature of the work, you are required to live in this town. As you are researching neighborhoods, you discover that the Whites were responsible for 58% of violent crime in town. The Blacks were responsible for 42% of violent crime. Again, remembering that the town is highly segregated and the neighborhoods are contiguous, which area do you choose to live in?”

    Hogwash.
    That would be a nice analogy… if this was 1950, but we don’t live like that today (in most of America). You’re presenting a false choice.

    Instead of making decisions based purely on melanin, you should do what Alte recommends—get more information! Because there probably isn’t one amorphous black community but many, and there will be great differences between them, depending on education, income, religion, and countries of origin. Instead of taking a vast generalized racial category, (which was never meant to be used for house hunting) you should look at all of the factors that you would in any other community, and if it matches your criteria, then the skin color of the people is not going to make a difference. Well-educated, upper middle class black people are just as “safe” as upper middle class white people—even per capita. Do I really need to tell you this?

    All of your “probabilities” are based on being too lazy to look beyond simple color. All white neighborhoods are not safe, and all black neighborhoods are not unsafe, and most neighborhoods are both. It doesn’t really matter which race can claim more safe neighborhoods, what matters is that you pick one of them.


  207. The way they skew these statistics reminds me of kids in a playground. “I might do bad things, but you do badder thing!” type of arguments. Sort of like” Nanananana, you’re in trouble”. The fact is, they use these myths in hopes of scaring the white women away from black men. It ain’t working. The perennial black ‘bogeyman’ myth in action.


  208. on Sun 11 Apr 2010 at 05:33:27 Leaveumthinking

    dude007
    okay white boys you win. black men commit more rapes. are you happy now? does your white skin look better to you now? i know if were white and i had to look at that pale ugly color all day i would try to make myself feel better too by telling lies on black men.

    I know!!! LOL…These pale pasty ass white trolls on here are so damn jealous of black men. Thats why they spend so much time out of their pathetic miserable lives reading a black man’s blog. They are nothing but a bunch of wimps and closeted homosexuals. Why else would they obsess about black men, their skin color, penis size, testosterone levels, and make up LIES about rape.


  209. Leaveumthinking said:

    “they obsess about black men, their skin color, penis size, testosterone levels, and make up LIES about rape”

    I know. It is bizarre. Even more so since it is not the sort of thing anyone would think to make up.


  210. RR:

    I agree with Lynn that the black rapist thing does not pass the smell test – and the numbers are not strong enough and solid enough to overcome that. The thing has wings only because of white racist fears, nothing else.

    Black America is far from perfect and not all of its ills are rooted in racism. And the way some of that stuff hits the headlines is in the form of crime. I have NEVER denied that crime was not a serious issue. I think Alte is on to something when she talks about fatherlessness though I would not go as far with it as she does.

    Side note: There was a time when I believed that 60% of the bad in black society came from fatherlessness, 40% from racism. It fit what I saw and my Catholic beliefs. I think that is just where Alte is at now (she is Catholic too). But then in reading about the Maori and the Sioux, and the experience of being a father myself, I saw that racism is at the root of far more of it than even most black people suspect. So now I would put it at 75% racism, 15% fatherlessness, 2% genetics and 8% other stuff.

    I think the main thing that separates our views is that you think justice is a natural outcome in American society while I do not. Injustice has been BUILT INTO American society since the 1660s and much of it is STILL THERE. Not so much in the laws anymore as in the way people think and act – thought and behaviour that has its roots in slave days and Jim Crow. Why do black women wear weave? Why does Pat Buchanan talk about black rapists? This stuff does not fall from the sky – it comes STRAIGHT OUT of the past.


  211. 2% genetics

    ????

    What do you mean by “genetics”?


  212. Mira:

    Well, there are genetic differences and they do have effects. It is a big reason blacks were brought across the Atlantic in the first place: they stand up better in the face of tropical diseases than whites. Even when Costa Rica wanted to build a railroad to export coffee the only way they could get it done was to hire Jamaicans (not their first choice) – because they did not fall sick so often.

    The last 500 years make way more sense if you look at a malaria map of the world.

    On the other hand, people like RR and Steve Sailer would put the effect of genetics not at 2% but at 60% or more. They think the genetic differences between blacks and whites have profound effects on intelligence and character. That is why they are called scientific racists. They think their racism is rooted in hard science when, in fact, it is pseudo-science, like astrology, UFOs or creationism.


  213. I understand there are some genetic differences. Still, I don’t understand how they contribute to “bad things in black society” as you called it. I don’t see any connection between genetic differences and group behavior, or crime. Sure, a person genetic can contribute to the problem, but it is individual and not race specific.

    What I’m saying is, maybe there is a genetic reason black people to be better sprinters (but not swimmers)- I say “maybe” because I am not sure if there is, indeed, any biological reason for this (as the opposite of socio-cultural or economic reasons). Still, it would make some sense, perhaps. But I can’t think of any genetic (biological) reason for black crime, not even 2%, since everything there is social. If an individual has some behavioral problems, they could be genetic, but it has nothing to do with being black.


  214. abagond, you wrote:

    I think the main thing that separates our views is that you think justice is a natural outcome in American society while I do not. Injustice has been BUILT INTO American society since the 1660s and much of it is STILL THERE.

    The evidence provided by black history says you are wrong. If there were a black nation demonstrating — today — that blacks are capable of forming a government and building a prosperous advanced society, you would have a basis for your belief.

    Blacks have yet to form an Israel. Instead, there is Liberia, Somalia, Zimbabwe, Congo, Sudan, etc.

    However, the Nation of Islam continues to demand that the US government carve out a large piece of land inside the continental area and hand it over to blacks, and then provide several decades of financial support for this new nation within a nation.


  215. Three points:

    1. The Rabbi and Incog Man are the same person. I did not ban him as a sock puppet because I thought that was clear when the Rabbi said what his website was called.

    2. Most Hispanics think of themselves as white. It is in the US Census. Look it up.

    3. Hispanic is not a race but a culture. So if we are talking about race and rape, as we are, then many of them will count as white – especially when it comes to “perceived race”.


  216. The last 500 years make way more sense if you look at a malaria map of the world.

    I don’t understand.

    I know sickle cells gene (most often found in people of African descent) can prevent malaria. Still, malaria map shows African countries, as well as some Latin American and Middle Eastern countries as the most affected.


  217. 3. Hispanic is not a race but a culture. So if we are talking about race and rape, as we are, then many of them will count as white – especially when it comes to “perceived race”.

    It sure makes sense to me, since many Hispanic people I saw (on the images) look… well, white to me. But would be they considered as such in the US? Would a victim say the rapist was white in her report? Or would she say “Hispanic” or “Latino” and police or whoever is in charge change that into “white”?


  218. Jasmin,

    I agree that there may not be a 1 to 1 correspondence between arrests and number of perpetrators, but your objection misses the point of my argument. From my perspective, it doesn’t matter whether a single rapist attacks 20 women or 20 rapists attack 20 women. That 20 instances of rape were reported would be significant in itself. Arrest rates are significant because they give an indication of the overall level of crime within a community. How efficiently justice is meted out after a crime is committed is another question, which is why conviction rates are irrelevant to our particular discussion.


  219. Leaveumthinking said:

    “dude007
    okay white boys you win. black men commit more rapes. are you happy now? does your white skin look better to you now? i know if were white and i had to look at that pale ugly color all day i would try to make myself feel better too by telling lies on black men.

    I know!!! LOL…These pale pasty ass white trolls on here are so damn jealous of black men. Thats why they spend so much time out of their pathetic miserable lives reading a black man’s blog. They are nothing but a bunch of wimps and closeted homosexuals. Why else would they obsess about black men, their skin color, penis size, testosterone levels, and make up LIES about rape.”

    Penis size? Of course, “muh dik.” That’s the ultimate display of Negro logic. If you can no longer argue the relevant facts, start talking about penis size and sex with white women. Muh dik. Is that all you “people” ever think about?


  220. In all honesty, white people (men AND women) tend to focus on black men penis size way too often.


  221. Still, malaria map shows African countries, as well as some Latin American and Middle Eastern countries as the most affected.

    Malaria was eradicated from the US in the 1940s, but used to be endemic in at least parts of this country (http://www.cdc.gov/malaria/history/eradication_us.htm).

    A major commitment was to the malaria control and assessment activities associated with the Tennessee Valley Authority. The advent of World War II necessitated the control of malaria in and around the many military bases located in malarious areas, primarily in Southeastern U. S. These efforts were so successful that at the end of the war and the founding of CDC, one of the initial tasks was to oversee the completion of the elimination of malaria as a major public health problem. In 1949, the country was declared free of malaria as a significant public health problem.

    The role of CDC became one of surveillance within the U. S. and of assistance in the world-wide efforts to eliminate or control malaria in the economically underdeveloped areas of the world.

    Malaria has been endemic in the US until the late 1940’s. Most of the transmission occurred in the southeastern states. (From this derives the fact that CDC, originally derived from malaria control operations, is located in Atlanta, Georgia).

    I’m not sure whether sickle cell related malaria resistance and the former presence of malaria in the Southeastern US were in fact large factors in the motivation for the importation of African slaves, but they could have been.


  222. Herneith,

    You are right. I was being rude and vulgar. I shall refrain from using vulgar language in the future.


  223. Lynn Gazis-Stax,

    I think we need to review Abagond’s remark that is the source of our current disagreement. He wrote:

    I am pretty sure that there are way more black-on-white rapes than white-on-black rapes in America. Simply because most rape is done by people the victim already knows. It is widely observed in the States that black men date white women at way higher rates than white men date black women. So that alone would drive up the rates of black-on-white rape.

    I then raised the question regarding Asian men and rape. Asian men date/marry white women at higher rates than black men, but commit less rape.

    You wrote:
    but the fact that black men make up a larger percentage of white women’s dating population, is supposed to be totally irrelevant?

    It would be relevant if you could prove that black men make up a larger percentage of the average white woman’s dating pool as compared to Asian men. Thus far, you have not proved this. Your argument rests on the fact that black men outnumber Asian men, thus, by your line of reasoning, comprise a greater percentage of the average white woman’s dating pool. I don’t think population numbers translate into social access. I think that white women, like other women, are selective about whom they date and are more likely to date men in who share their social environment. My argument is that black men are less likely to share the social environment of white women than are Asian men for the reasons I stated previously (lower levels of education, higher incarceration rates, higher mortality rates etc.)

    There should be more Asian men raping white women than black men raping white women, even though there are way more black men than Asian men in the US to begin with,

    I’m not saying Asian men SHOULD rape white women. I raised a question regarding Abagond’s assumption that social access is positively correlated with rape frequency. If his assumption was true, more Asians would be the perpetrators of rape against white women, especially in areas like northern California, where there are lots of young Asian guys and white women, but very few black men. Asians constitute 12% of the population in California and blacks are 6.7%, but blacks were arrested in 18% of sex offenses cases in California in 2005 while Asians were arrested in less than 5.5% of sex offense cases (http://ag.ca.gov/cjsc/publications/candd/cd05/tabs/2005Table31.pdf).

    I guess one could argue that none of the statistics can be trusted, so we have to remain agnostic on the question of race and crime. I would prefer not to though, because we live in the real world where probabilities matter. If we continue to dodge the relationship between race and crime, we are denying reality. This denial of reality leads to many other areas of denial. It leads to a host of lies and undermines the faith the public has in our institutions of government.


  224. Abagond,

    I realize that the black community is not perfect, but you are under the assumption that white people are the source of the bulk of our problems. You state this belief frequently and very dogmatically, without the slightest shred of evidence. It seems to be a religious belief with you. Take your statement:

    So now I would put it [i.e. the cause of black problems] at 75% racism, 15% fatherlessness, 2% genetics and 8% other stuff.

    Could you please explain how you arrived at the 75% figure? Do you have any evidence to back up this assertion? Or are you operating from your gut. This is what disturbs me about blacks. We don’t do much real analysis regarding race and have a tendency to rely on emotion and gut instinct rather than numbers. We have a tendency, as all humans do as Lynn pointed out, to dismiss those things that make us look bad as compared to others. I would be for this if this tactic actually helped us, but it doesn’t. It just prevents us from confronting hard realities, that may be within our power to control.

    I think the main thing that separates our views is that you think justice is a natural outcome in American society while I do not.

    No. This is not what separates our views. If I have given you the impression that I believe we live in a just society then I have not done a very good job explaining my views. We live in a very unjust society. We are currently engaged in two useless wars, we just forfeited our economic futures for the benefit of powerful financial interests, the environment continues to be stressed at an alarming rate due to carelessness and immigration and we have almost lost our manufacturing capacity. I am far from naïve about such things. I just think you wildly overstate the importance of racism’s impact on black progress. This over-statement of racism’s impact on your part is what separates our views.


  225. King,

    You have jumped from one reasonable area of endeavor, finding a safe place to live based on crimes statistics, to advocating generally discriminatory policies in an attempt to show that all forms of discrimination are equally irrational. Let’s look at your points in turn:

    1)Not hire any black people at your place of business.

    One could do this and, as you know, this was standard practice in many areas of the US until about 40 years ago. The problem with this is that it denies individual differences. An employer can always interview/test a potential candidate to determine whether there is a good fit.

    2)Not allow black people into your social clubs.

    This would be problematic. Would blacks be barred from performing in social clubs also? Barring blacks from performing would probably be a bad business decision. Would a social club really benefit from keeping people like Tiger Woods out.

    3)Keep blacks out of your schools!

    One could do this, but what of it? Given the levels of segregation in this country, that is pretty much the case as it is regarding primary and secondary education.

    4) Refuse business with blacks, unless absolutely necessary.

    And how would one define absolutely necessary? Would it be like what Koreans or Indians do now? And why might they do that? How does discriminating against blacks help Koreans or Indians?

    5) OBVIOUSLY don’t EVER marry one!!!

    Maybe, but love is where you find it. Interracial relations are problematic on the macro and micro level. I would have no problem with social prohibitions against interracial marriage, so long as interracial marriage remained legal.

    That would be a nice analogy… if this was 1950, but we don’t live like that today (in most of America). You’re presenting a false choice.

    This was a hypothetical situation that YOU originally constructed. I just developed it a bit more. The point of the illustration was to demonstrate the usefulness of crime statistics. These statistics are useful. The statistics don’t insure perfect safety, but again, life is a question of probabilities. Where one chooses to live is hardly a false choice. People take levels of crime into consideration all the time when deciding where they should live. And if a person did not have access to crime data for a particular neighborhood, he would probably take race into account in assessing the level of crime he could expect in that neighborhood and it would be reasonable for him to do so.

    Instead of making decisions based purely on melanin, you should do what Alte recommends—get more information!

    More information would probably not hurt, if one could get the information in a timely fashion, but most prospective home buyers don’t have that kind of time. Crime stats are usually readily available for specific neighborhoods. The level of crime and the quality of schools are good enough for most home buyers when assessing the quality of a neighborhood.

    It doesn’t really matter which race can claim more safe neighborhoods, what matters is that you pick one of them.

    Yes, but picking one of them involves assessing the level of crime in each neighborhood. If one neighborhood has a higher crime rate, a prospective buyer would be reasonable to take that into consideration. Have you ever been a home buyer? I gather you have never been through this process. You probably don’t have children either.


  226. on Sun 11 Apr 2010 at 14:59:59 Leaveumthinking

    If you can no longer argue the relevant facts, start talking about penis size and sex with white women. Muh dik. Is that all you “people” ever think about?

    People have provided you with links to relevant facts but you whites want to believe your own lies instead of acknowledging facts.
    And in regards to black men, penis size, and their sex life thats all you white men think about. Its all over the internet you white men overly concerning yourselves with black men and their private parts. All this imagination of black men and rape must be another inferiority complex white men suffer from. Are you that scared “mandingo” is going to “steal” all the white women? Well thats just too bad.


  227. @Leaveumthinking:

    Notice how these commenters such as Peter Lerman head straight for the penis size issue? Talk about a one track mind.


  228. @ RR

    “You have jumped from one reasonable area of endeavor, finding a safe place to live based on crimes statistics, to advocating generally discriminatory policies in an attempt to show that all forms of discrimination are equally irrational. ”

    Not so fast. All along, your proposed method of “finding a place to live based on crime statistics” was to look at NATIONAL D.O.J. numbers, by ethnicity, and then make your housing choices based solely on the COLOR of the people in each neighborhood.

    Let’s review what you said about left-handedness and crime:

    RR: “I most certainly WOULD think left-handedness was an indicator of criminal propensity, ON AVERAGE. If there was an, at a glance indicator, of left-handedness, and lefties were to live among themselves, in particular neighborhoods, I would probably avoid those neighborhoods.”

    Now, please switch the words “left-handedness” with black.

    And here you are again talking about crowds of people on the street.

    RR: “Of course, this would be dependent on the degree of correlation between left-handedness and crime. If lefties only committed 5% more crime than righties, then the correlation would be an interesting fact. If it were 30%, that would be startling, and I would avoid crowds of lefties.”

    If you apply the DOJ numbers on black criminals as an indicator of criminal propensity of ALL black neighborhoods or groups of blacks walking on the street, then you are segregating, not only in housing choices, but in life in general.

    The time has come to stop trying to think of a new argument, and to start trying to think about a new way of seeing things.

    Yes, what you are proposing actually IS irrational.


  229. I have known many people with the idea that black men were naturally more savage than any other race, especially when it comes to sexual appetite, however I treat each person as an individual and make it known that there is good and bad apples in every bunch. I feel sympathy for those that have been a victim of rape. At some point though it fosters the idea of white superiority, to believe that blacks are just going around looking for white women to rape and I can assure that this idea is purely false, but what it did historically was to try to make the white woman feel more valuable than what she really was…people are people. White men have even used this as the excuse when on those nights where they disappeared from their wife’s beds and fathered a black child that their white wife was to pure to be touched when they really had a desire for the exotic black woman, but the truth is you don’t keep touching what you don’t like. As far as I can recall in school as early as grade school, I was friends with both black and white children, but it was usually the white children who were reporting to their teachers and other children that their natural fathers were molesting them and also their brothers. More than 40% of the white children I knew experienced rape and incest in their own homes and at an early age, and it seems that it persists to this very day, the appetite for children sexually has been very high among the white community. I have always felt sorrow for those poor children. Let me also mention that the system failed to protect them because many of the one’s who swore to uphold the law was the perpetrators! Are there any statistics on this category?


  230. And in regards to black men, penis size, and their sex life thats all you white men think about.

    You and others of your ilk, are the ones who bring up these topics of genital size, high testosterone levels and IQ as a reason for black men supposedly ‘raping’ at a higher rate than others. It leads one to think that you are indeed obsessed with black men and their sexuality. If you weren’t, you would treat the topic of rape for what it is, a crime of violence regardless of who the rapist is. To impute a characteristic such as this to a whole group of men based on their racialization speaks to your own racism!


  231. RR,

    I still don’t think arrests rates = crime, because the reasons people get arrested are so varied, and I would care a lot more about 20 different people getting arrested than the same person getting arrested 20 times. (No lie, a man was arrested something like 73 times around where I live, and released every time.)


  232. RR,

    Aren’t you confusing Asian men White women with Asian women/White men? Asian men have the lowest intermarriage rate–well they have to, because there are so few Asians in the US (so even Black women are higher by default). The only group that marries out disproportionately is Asian women (most often to White men).


  233. RR,

    The thing is, no one talks about racism without using instinct–there’s no factual way to go about it. At best, you can use statistics to get at frequencies and correlations, but no science can determine what is “racist” in the first place. I think it silly (and very shortsighted) for people (not necessarily you) to argue that they discuss things “objectively” and there is no objective way to do so. That’s like saying, “Let’s talk about war objectively.” If it wasn’t important on a personal level, it wouldn’t be important enough to talk about. Hence why you don’t hear people talking about why 2 + 2 = 4 very much.


  234. It seems to me that everyone readily accepts the fact that black men are savage rapists, but most white men don’t take the time to look in the mirror and see just how many of them have raped and impregnated black women, this is a crime of violence against man and GOD and the perpetrators regardless of who they are, white…or black WILL be dealt with by GOD.


  235. RR,

    I don’t think it makes sense to use “rape” and “crime” interchangeably. Since most rapes are acquaintance rapes, I agree with King in a way–shouldn’t you just isolate yourself so no “acquaintances” can attack you?

    I go to a PWI, and all of the sexual assaults this year have been committed by tall White males, and almost all were acquaintance rapes (people getting attacked in dorm rooms, at parties, etc.). It makes no sense (and is impossible) to avoid White males here–the best “protective” thing you can do is avoid being alone with men in situations with alcohol, since that’s the context in which these things usually occur.

    I’ve never met (have you?) anyone who didn’t move into a neighborhood because there were a lot of Black people and Black men will rape you. When talking about “crime”, people seem to worry most about (in no particular order) shootings, drugs, and pedophiles. I wouldn’t move in a town with a lot of sex offenders (most of whom happen to be White), but that’s not the same as not moving into an area that happens to be predominantly White.


  236. King,

    We started out discussing Alte’s assertion that crime statistics were meaningless without additional information like SES, locale etc. I believe that crime statistics are useful without the additional information. You said that you thought he was right. Then you when on to construct some hypothetical situations seemingly intended to prove the uselessness of crime statistics without additional information. I expanded on your hypothetical situations to show that crime statistics were useful without additional information. The illustrations I expanded upon have nothing to do with the BJS data we had been using in discussing rape. You have confused the issues.

    You wrote:

    If you apply the DOJ numbers on black criminals as an indicator of criminal propensity of ALL black neighborhoods or groups of blacks walking on the street, then you are segregating, not only in housing choices, but in life in general.

    Not necessarily. One could make generalizations about certain neighborhoods based on race if one didn’t have access to other information, but still view and judge people individually. You are assuming that because one discriminates in one area that one would be obliged to discriminate in all areas. For instance, I don’t believe that women should be allowed to participate in front line troop operations because I don’t believe women are physically or mentally equipped for sustained combat operations. Despite this prejudice, I would have no problem reporting to a female supervisor. Just because I think women are ill equipped for combat doesn’t mean that my bigotry affects other aspects of my social interactions with women. Similarly with whites who are inclined to view blacks as being crime prone. One can generalize with a particular group, yet not extend those generalizations to personal interactions. People are perfectly capable of separating general cases from specific cases, and do so all the time. There is nothing irrational about this.


  237. Jasmin,

    Remember, we are talking specifically about rapes. With respect to rape, the reasons for arrest are not varied. A woman makes an accusation and the police apprehend a suspect on the basis of that accusation (presumably).
    Contrary to popular opinion, the out-marriage rate for Asian men in the US is significantly higher than the out-marriage rate for black men (http://www.asian-nation.org/interracial.shtml, Arthur Hu’s take http://hu1st.blogspot.com/2007/04/race-of-rodney-dangerfields-white-men.html)

    You wrote:

    The thing is, no one talks about racism without using instinct–there’s no factual way to go about it.

    I agree with you, but there are rational forms of discrimination and irrational forms of discrimination. A NYC cabbie who refuses to pick up black men for fear of robbery is exercising rational discrimination (a larger percentage of cabbies in NYC are black themselves). A white person who refuses to sit next to a black person because blacks smell is being irrational.

    Home buyers frequently seek out the crime statistics on prospective neighborhoods. Many brokers have the information readily available. To my knowledge, most people don’t focus on the crime of rape when purchasing into a neighborhood. The general level of crime seems to be more important (which includes rape, of course).


  238. Us openly “racist” Whiteys are growing more and more. Soon, it will spread like wildfire. Enjoy the future.

    Run for the hills! They are not growing. They are just coming out of the woodwork!

    2. Most Hispanics think of themselves as white. It is in the US Census. Look it up.

    They aren’t when it comes to rape! They are then Hispanic(read non-white) for the purposes of these racists. That’s right, they become ‘other’ when they commit some negative act according to these clowns. All of a sudden, they are no longer ‘white’. Make up your mind racists, who’s ‘white’ and who’s not!

    A white person who refuses to sit next to a black person because blacks smell is being irrational.

    RR, you’re a trip! If the person has extreme body odour it’s because he or she has an aversion to soap and deodorant, or some congenital condition for which they have no control over. Not because they hail from any group. Any fool who thinks that b.o. is exclusive to one group is indeed irrational! The same reasoning can be used for rapists being predominate in one group, they aren’t.


  239. RR,

    That doesn’t take into account the situations in which the victim describes an unknown attacker. “He looked like X” would be subject to eyewitness biases. Your point would only apply to acquaintance rapes, in which the woman knew her attacker and identified her by name, not general appearance. I think you made the point earlier that race stacks up on a tally sheet of sorts (i.e., 5 Black men picked up is 5 Black men, regardless of whether any of them did it or not), but then when you start talking about crime rates that gets tricky. I wouldn’t want to live in a neighborhood where the police made a lot of arrests but nearly always arrested the wrong person.

    Since we are talking specifically about rapes, I don’t think crime statistics and their implications fit this discussion, since we both agree that few people use rape specifically as a criterion for assessing the criminality of a neighborhood. There is no “cut-off” point for when a neighborhood has “too many rapes to be safe”, probably because rapes are so underreported and no neighborhood is going to have a high enough rape rate (on paper) to deter most people from living there. 15 rapes per 100,000 people isn’t very many, especially if you take into account that the majority of rapes are acquaintance rape. I don’t know if even 100 rapes per 100,000 people (.1%) would phase me personally, because I’m more likely to be assaulted by the guy next door than some guy in the bushes. So I can either get me to a nunnery or accept that the factors involved in rape go way beyong location.


  240. “We started out discussing Alte’s assertion that crime statistics were meaningless without additional information like SES, locale etc. I believe that crime statistics are useful without the additional information. “

    That depends on what you mean by “useful.” If you mean that you can make an uninformed choice based on limited information, rather than on no information, then that’s an odd definition of “useful.”

    My hypothetical was based on reality—a majority, which produces most of the crime vs. a minority with a higher per capita rate of crime. Your expansion of the hypothetical envisioned a world of 100% segregation, two crime rates, and very limited additional information. Your hypothetical took a realistic analogy and made it into a pointlessly false scenario. That is why I called you on it.

    “One could make generalizations about certain neighborhoods based on race if one didn’t have access to other information, but still view and judge people individually.”

    Firstly, one always has access to other information, there is no point in hypothesizing the impossible. We live on Earth, so let’s stick to the realities of this particular planet. And secondly, the same reasons that you can’t predict for individual behavior, is true when trying to predict for group behavior. If you can’t judge one household based on the D.O.J. report, and the color of their skin, you also can’t judge two houses, or a block of house, or a neighborhood. These groups are made out of individuals. D.O.J. figures were never meant to be used as predictors of criminal probability. It is irrational to try.


  241. Jasmin,

    I would hope you would want to live in a neighborhood in which very few instances of rape were reported to the police, regardless of the number of wrong arrests. This is the point! The most important factor here is that women report rapes because they were presumablely raped. It is the instance of rape and the description of the alleged perpetrator that you should be focusing on.

    Since we are talking specifically about rapes, I don’t think crime statistics and their implications fit this discussion, since we both agree that few people use rape specifically as a criterion for assessing the criminality of a neighborhood.

    I disagree. I explained to Abagond why a discussion of rape is relevant. I’ll quote myself:

    It seems to me that white racists and others (like me) use rape to illustrate two points:

    1) Rape is a crime in which police bias is minimized – Typically, liberals try to get around the fact that black men commit much more crime than other groups by stating that the police hate black men and consequently are inclined to arrest them disproportionally. White racists circumvent this argument by quoting rape statistics because the police don’t conduct rape sweeps as they do with drugs or guns. Innocent black men are not ensnared in this fashion with respect to rape, thus it provides a clearer picture of criminal propensity.

    2) Rape is a crime in which blacks (for the sake of argument, blacks in this context means American blacks) are disproportionately represented among the perpetrators and victims (referring to male/female rape).


  242. King,
    You wrote:
    If you mean that you can make an uninformed choice based on limited information

    If the choice is based on information, however limited, it is an informed choice. Your statement is a contradiction in terms.

    Your hypothetical was clearly NOT based on reality, where two small crime prone families spread rumors about each other and then complain that the other family is spreading rumors about them. I don’t know what kind of world you inhabit, but from my perspective, your scenario didn’t work. Not only is your scenario unrealistic (not that it was supposed to be, since I assumed it was hypothetical), it failed to prove your point. My scenario at least supported my contention that crime statistics in and of themselves, provide useful information. And here is my definition of useful:

    “being of use or service; serving some purpose;
    advantageous, helpful, or of good effect”

    So yes, in my scenario, the statistics were useful. And yes, crime statistics are useful to home buyers.
    Being that I have actually gone through the process of researching neighborhoods and schools before a home purchase, I really have found crime statistics useful, as have most other people who have gone through the process. You sound naïve to me.

    Firstly, one always has access to other information, there is no point in hypothesizing the impossible.

    Wow! You really are presumptuous! There are many times when one has very limited information at a particular time and a particular setting and a quick decision is required. It happens all the time (just ask a cop). You are obviously not very well acquainted with the impossible.

    And secondly, the same reasons that you can’t predict for individual behavior, is true when trying to predict for group behavior.

    You are wrong. Standardized tests like the SAT, LSAT, GRE etc., predict first year grades quite well (relative to other measures) for individuals and groups (for blacks, these tests have a tendency to over-predict first year grades, but that is another thread). Baseball statistics are very useful in predicting future performance both at the individual level and at the team level (Bill James has made a fortune parsing baseball stats for teams and has been quite successful) I think I understand you. You don’t like statistics because you don’t like generalizations being made about blacks. I understand that. But don’t indict statistics as a whole. People use statistics precisely because they are useful.

    It is irrational to try.

    Why is it irrational to try? What is so irrational about trying to use crime statistics to avoid being victimized? A person could be wrong in his assumptions regarding a particular set of statistics, but the attempt itself is not irrational. Are NYC cabbies, many of whom are black themselves, irrational because they bypass young black men? I don’t think so. The black cabbies that pass on black men in NYC are being perfectly rational and that rationality helps keep them alive.


  243. With regard to:

    I explained to Abagond why a discussion of rape is relevant. I’ll quote myself:

    It seems to me that white racists and others (like me) use rape to illustrate two points:

    1) Rape is a crime in which police bias is minimized – Typically, liberals try to get around the fact that black men commit much more crime than other groups by stating that the police hate black men and consequently are inclined to arrest them disproportionally. White racists circumvent this argument by quoting rape statistics because the police don’t conduct rape sweeps as they do with drugs or guns. Innocent black men are not ensnared in this fashion with respect to rape, thus it provides a clearer picture of criminal propensity.

    2) Rape is a crime in which blacks (for the sake of argument, blacks in this context means American blacks) are disproportionately represented among the perpetrators and victims (referring to male/female rape).

    I think these are the fundamental flaws in the argument
    and in fact starts from a ‘false’ premise and thus affecting the whole ‘logical’way you look and assess the ‘facts’.

    * The lack of understanding statistics and what can be inferred from the statistics, and also how the statistics are derived?

    * The lack of understanding about ‘rape myths’ and how such myth operates in a racist society?

    * Base rate fallacy

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_rate_fallacy


  244. You see, RR, rape in particular, and crime in general, are BEHAVIORAL problems; they are based on how you act, not on how you look.

    The problem is that you (and others) have tried to look at ethnic percentages as predictors of racial propensity toward crime. But, as you admit, those figures mean nothing when dealing with an individual. But they also don’t mean anything when dealing with a group or a neighborhood. Neighborhoods can be as individual as persons are.

    There are many, many, neighborhoods that the D.O.J. crime figures would tell you nothing about, because just like individuals, neighborhood activity can not be predicted on an individual basis.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_Hills

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Country…ills,_Illinois

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/View_Park-Windsor_Hills

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithonia,_Georgia

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladera_…%2C_California

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Vernon,_New_York

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_M…ashington,_D.C.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambria_Heights,_Queens

    And why? Because crime is based on behavior, not ethnicity. The problem is when people try to do racial bean counting and then make ethnicity the big dividing line.

    THE REAL DIVISION SHOULD BE BETWEEN CRIMINALS AND NON-CRIMINALS—Nobody should be saying, “Well that group has more crimes than my group.

    Your group when it comes to crime, is “Non- Criminal” the other group is “Criminal” those are the only two groups in the world, on this issue. When you fall into the fallacy of trying to hold non-criminals accountable for the actions of criminals, who happen to share a similar shade of skin color, you are being a fool.

    If one skin color division has more criminals in it than the other, it has NOTHING to do with the non-criminals who share the same skin color. You don’t treat them any different, and they are no more likely to do a crime than you are.

    THAT is holding people accountable for their actions, not their ethnicity.


  245. RR: “If the choice is based on information, however limited, it is an informed choice. Your statement is a contradiction in terms.

    Actually, a choice can clearly still be uninformed, if you don’t have the necessary information to make the decision.
    For example, if you know that a meteor is on a collision course with the Earth, but you don’t know whether the meteor is the size of a golf ball or a football field, then your decision will still be an uniformed one. You have not met the threshold of information necessary to inform your actions.

    You’re grasping at straws.

    I’m not going to go over my hypothetical again, because, clearly you didn’t read it, based on your misstatements above.

    “Standardized tests like the SAT, LSAT, GRE etc., predict first year grades quite well (relative to other measures) for individuals and groups”

    Yes, but the context of my statement was CRIME STATISTICS. And using national crime statistics based on race, or left-handedness, or whatever criteria, cannot predict how safe a specific neighborhood or group would be, based on the race of the people who inhabit it. That is the point.

    The SAT, GRE, or any other test cannot predict the behavior of any group of students, based on their race. It can predict national trends, yes, but it can’t predict for neighborhood size groups, or families walking down the sidewalk—which is what we’re talking about.


  246. King,

    Crime is behavioral and unless one is a racial absolutist (I am not) race is not causal with respect to crime. Nonetheless, propensity to commit crime is not evenly distributed across racial/ethnic lines. The crime statistics do bear this out. And they are relevant with respect to neighborhoods. Again, you seem to object to crime statistics simply because they cast blacks in an unflattering light. Reality is reality. Denying that crime does in fact vary by race/ethnicity does no one any good.

    You wrote:

    There are many, many, neighborhoods that the D.O.J. crime figures would tell you nothing about, because just like individuals, neighborhood activity can not be predicted on an individual basis.

    There is no need to rely on DOJ data. One can find out local data from sources like this one:

    http://www.crimereports.com/

    And why? Because crime is based on behavior, not ethnicity. The problem is when people try to do racial bean counting and then make ethnicity the big dividing line.

    But there is a correlation between race/ethnicity and crime. Some racial/ethnic groups are more crime prone than others. This is a fact. I don’t like it and I’m sure you don’t like it, but it is a reality nonetheless.

    THE REAL DIVISION SHOULD BE BETWEEN CRIMINALS AND NON-CRIMINALS—Nobody should be saying, “Well that group has more crimes than my group

    But your statement overlooks the fact that crime runs along a continuum. Some people, and groups specialize in specific types of crimes. Just as athletes vary with respect to race, so do criminals.

    THAT is holding people accountable for their actions, not their ethnicity.

    But it prevents people from making informed decisions about where they should live if they wish to live in safety. Political correctness should never trump safety.


  247. RR,

    But quoting rape statistics makes no sense in regards to crime if I (and most people) admittedly don’t use those specifically to determine how safe a neighborhood is. Even if I decided that single statistic was most important to me in deciding where to live, I’d have to realize that most of these rapes were likely reported by women who knew their attacker. So what could I do then? If most of the attackers were Black and I found that significant, than I would have to never associate with Black people, not just live near them, as King said, since associates aren’t just limited to people who live near you.


  248. Jasmin,

    Rape statistics are still relevant for the following reasons:

    1) A significant number of rapes are stranger rapes and black men are somewhat over-represented in stranger rapes than are white men.

    2) One tends to become acquainted with one’s neighbors. If one’s neighbors have a higher than average tendency to rape, then one would be at higher than average risk of rape.

    What should a girl do? She should look at the statistics and move to the safest neighborhood she could afford.

    All blacks are not the same. There are black neighborhoods that are safer than white neighborhoods, despite the fact that on average, black neighborhoods are more crime prone than white neigbhorhoods, but one wouldn’t know that without crime statistics. So, just because blacks are, on average, more crime prone, does not mean that one should assume that all blacks are crime prone.


  249. RR,

    1. Depends on what you define as “significant” since almost 80% of rapes are acquaintance rapes.

    2.How would you know if one’s neighbors have a higher than average tendency to rape? Since they are individuals, the “safety benefits” one would receive by using race as a criterion would be miniscule.

    I agree that one should look at the statistics, I just think that if there were an individual category of crime I would consider in moving somewhere it would be gun-related crimes (which would likely correlate with drug and gang activity), not rape.

    Incidentally, my college campus is considered “rape prone” for a number of factors, including the high population of upper-class White males in the student body.


  250. King,

    A decision can be under-informed, but a decision based on some information is an informed decision. Again, I urge you to talk to a cop or a soldier in a war zone. They make snap decisions all the time, with very limited information. Their decisions are not uninformed.

    You wrote:

    For example, if you know that a meteor is on a collision course with the Earth, but you don’t know whether the meteor is the size of a golf ball or a football field, then your decision will still be an uniformed one.

    But you haven’t even defined what decision a person in your example would make, so how can you say that the decision will be an uninformed one. Suppose, on hearing that a meteor was going to hit the Earth, one decides that he should write his will, just in case. That is an informed decision, no matter how you slice it.

    Yes, but the context of my statement was CRIME STATISTICS.

    But the statement you made was with respect to being able to predict individual and group performance. You were wrong.

    The SAT, GRE, or any other test cannot predict the behavior of any group of students, based on their race.

    But they can predict achievement based on their scores. That is why colleges use them. Admissions offices use them because of their predictive power. And we know that the tests over-predict black scholastic achievement because the results are fairly consistent.

    but it can’t predict for neighborhood size groups, or families walking down the sidewalk—which is what we’re talking about.

    The statistics obviously don’t predict perfectly, but they are positively correlated with behavior. Crime is not randomly distributed across a town, region or country. It is not evenly distributed either. Again, life is basically a question of probabilities. We probabilistic games every time we walk out the door. Political correctness isn’t going to change this reality.


  251. RR,

    I think we’ve had this discussion before, but SAT/ACT scores predict first-year achievement only, in the range of 16-18%. The best predictor: family wealth. Colleges use them because they always have (and they benefit people with money, which means big endowments and generous alumni), not because they actually work.


  252. Well, we can muddle over these small points for an eternity. Suffice it to say that if I were to hear that tomorrow’s lottery numbers would include a 1 in it, and I spent my life savings buying tickets with all 1’s on them, then you would think it an informed decision, and I would not. To me an informed decision is one in which there is enough information available to make a reasoned choice. To you, as long as anyone has any information, it’s an informed decision. I doubt that many people will agree with your version, but you are welcome to insist upon it.

    “But the statement you made was with respect to being able to predict individual and group performance.”

    AS RELATED TO CRIME, not to school scores, peaknuckle tournaments, or barbershop quartets.

    “The SAT, GRE, or any other test… can predict achievement based on their scores. That is why colleges use them.”

    Obviously, but you could not test all the black high school students in the country, determine an average score, and then use that score to predict how black students in any given neighborhood or group would perform. That is what you have been asserting.

    You keep trying to make this about whether “crime statistics” are useful, which is absurd. Nobody has disagreed with you that they are. My disagreement is when you think that the figures for black criminals reflect somehow on the overall criminal propensity of black non-criminals. They do not.

    Black people who don’t break the law are no more likely to do so just because the black criminals who are breaking the law do so at a higher per capita rate than whites. Their ethnicity does not tie them to those crimes in any way.


  253. I also agree with Jasmin’s assessment of pre-collegiate testing and it’s predictive powers.


  254. King: THAT is holding people accountable for their actions, not their ethnicity.

    RR: But it prevents people from making informed decisions about where they should live if they wish to live in safety. Political correctness should never trump safety.

    King: No it doesn’t, it just encourages people to research the crime figures of an area or neighborhood, not those of an ethnicity.


  255. RR:

    Even within New York City itself going by race and ethnicity is a poor way to keep yourself safe, despite what white people from the suburbs might think. Here are the four worst precincts in terms of major crimes:

    1 Bed-Stuy (black)
    2. East Harlem (Hispanic)
    3. Midtown South (white)
    4. Lower East Side (Asian, Hispanic)

    Midtown South (well-to-do and white) – between 42nd and 34th Streets – is WORSE than the middle of Harlem (black and poor, though gentrifying). I bet 95% of the white people there think Harlem is more dangerous.

    Even class does not work well: the blacks in Harlem are mostly poor, while those in Jamaica, Queens much more middle-class – yet Harlem is way less violent.

    Crime does not neatly follow race or even class.

    When I am in a strange neighbourhood and trying to figure out how safe it is I look at three things, none of them having to do with race:

    1. Abandoned buildings
    2. Women walking alone
    3. Prostitution


  256. Jasmin wrote:

    I think we’ve had this discussion before, but SAT/ACT scores predict first-year achievement only, in the range of 16-18%. The best predictor: family wealth.

    Not quite. The best predictor is parental IQ, of which wealth is a proxy. But even then, poor Asian outscore (and have higher GPAs than ) upper middle class blacks on the SAT.

    King wrote:

    Obviously, but you could not test all the black high school students in the country, determine an average score, and then use that score to predict how black students in any given neighborhood or group would perform.

    Obviously, we COULD test all black high school students if we as a country were so inclined, but there is no need to do that. One could go by the SAT scores of a particular high school in a particular neighborhood to determine the average score for a given neighborhood and predict the average performance of the students from that neighborhood.

    AS RELATED TO CRIME, not to school scores, peaknuckle tournaments, or barbershop quartets.

    Why do you think statistics suddenly lose their predictive power when applied to crime? Again, crime stats are useful, that is why those involved in law enforcement use them. What you are asserting here doesn’t make sense.

    Abagond wrote:

    Crime does not neatly follow race or even class.

    Crime doesn’t have to NEATLY follow race or class. Just because crime is positively correlated with race and class doesn’t mean that the correlation is 100%. Crime can occur anywhere, but that doesn’t mean crime is 100% random.


  257. Abagond,

    I meant that crime was negatively correlated with class.


  258. King wrote:

    My disagreement is when you think that the figures for black criminals reflect somehow on the overall criminal propensity of black non-criminals. They do not.

    We are talking about criminal propensity of races. Every race has it share of criminals. The percentages vary according to race and the types of crimes vary with race. This is what the statistics reflect. So when you talk about non-criminals you might as well be talking about non-players in Major League baseball. Non-criminals are not relevant to crime, obviously, but are impacted by crime, and crime varies with race/ethnicity.


  259. The principle problem with correlation tests in the social sciences is that it does NOT establish ’cause and effect’.

    Or as stated in the link below…

    Correlation measures association. But association is not the same as causation”

    Spurious Correlations

    http://www.burns.com/wcbspurcorl.htm


  260. abagond, you wrote:

    Midtown South (well-to-do and white) – between 42nd and 34th Streets – is WORSE than the middle of Harlem (black and poor, though gentrifying).

    Before accepting your claim that midtown south crime is WORSE than central Harlem crime, I’d like to know a few details.

    Like the crimes committed and the descriptions of the perpetrators.

    I would also like to know if your map of midtown south goes from 42nd to 34th AND from the East River to the Hudson. If yes, then your region includes people high and low on the economic ladder.

    Sometimes, when you comment about neighborhoods, I think you know very little about New York City. As I am sure you read, Times Square was the site of some gang activity on Easter Sunday. Surprise, surprise, when the cops nabbed the offenders, they were black.

    Though today Times Square and 42nd Street west of 6th Ave are unrecognizable compared with how they were 15 years ago, the area below 42nd St retains some of its former grimness and the crime that grim lives of desperation can bring. The bad boys are not white.

    You wrote:

    I bet 95% of the white people there think Harlem is more dangerous.

    And they would be right.


  261. king wrote:

    My disagreement is when you think that the figures for black criminals reflect somehow on the overall criminal propensity of black non-criminals. They do not.

    Would this line of disagreement arise if the subject were the appearance of disease in a specific group?


  262. So can I ask you No_Slappz. I thought I would turn the tables for once ha ha

    Do you think there is a cause and effect between ‘crime’ and ‘race, and if so, would you like to muse over
    ‘crime’ and ‘race’ but this time on the ‘international level’??

    Cheers!!!


  263. RR and no_slappz grasping at straws is f*cking hilarious!


  264. j, you asked:

    Do you think there is a cause and effect between ‘crime’ and ‘race, and if so, would you like to muse over
    ‘crime’ and ‘race’ but this time on the ‘international level’??

    Yes to both questions.

    With respect to “crime”, I am stating there is a link between an aspect of crime — violence — and race.

    However, if we look at the range of crime, we can identify plenty of crime that is non-violent and those most inclined to commit it.

    Meanwhile, the high incidence of violence among blacks correlates with black dominance in many sports, like boxing and football.


  265. RR, I simply don’t understand what you are arguing. On one hand, you keep talking about race to crime correlations, and on the other, you’re talking about looking at the total crime statistics of particular neighborhoods.

    There is obviously no need to look at race to crime correlation if you can just look at the total crime numbers for a specific neighborhood. Why would race even come into the picture if you could look at a website, or a printed report that told you that the neighborhood in question was crime free? Or if it wasn’t crime free, then what possible good would it do for you to know the race of the criminals in the area? It’s completely irrelevant.

    The only way that I can see that considering race to crime statistical correlation makes sense is if you plan on making decisions about the safety of people, or places, based on their ethnic makeup.

    Race/ethnicity is a categorical label of convenience, there is really no such thing a “black people,” there are only black peoples. There is no single “black culture,” there are many black cultures. The wide umbrella of “blackness” is just a large and fuzzy category that is convenient to use at one level but inappropriate to use at others (like criminal propensity).

    Trying to describe “how black people act” is like trying to describe the characteristics of red cars.

    The category simply is not discrete enough to treat as correlative.

    Does buying stocks make you money?
    Are canines good pets?
    Is liquid poisonous?

    There are questions you cannot answer. They don’t make sense because what’s being asked about is far too broad a category to be resolved with a single answer.

    The same is true of ethnic correlations. One must always ask, “which black people are you talking about? Which White people are you talking about? Which Asian people are you talking about? Because there are that many differences between them.


  266. @ no_slappz

    “Would this line of disagreement arise if the subject were the appearance of disease in a specific group?”

    It depends on whether the disease was sorosis of the liver, or smallpox.


  267. Cheers No_Slappz!!

    I think I understand what you are trying to get at. However, you have convoluted the argument.

    Your post begins with you believe that violence is based specifically to what race you belong to. (ie causation) and then you end with Blacks being violent because of the sports they participate in (correlation).

    However, by your own argument this correlation would be ‘redundant’ since you already have the ‘causation’ why they participate in such sports…No??

    Moving on…

    I am not quite sure I fully understand this sentence. I think I do but just need further clarification on your position.

    “However, if we look at the range of crime, we can identify plenty of crime that is non-violent and those most inclined to commit it”.

    What non-violent crimes are you referring to here, and who is mostly likely to commit it??

    Cheers!!


  268. king, you wrote:

    It depends on whether the disease was sorosis of the liver, or smallpox.

    No it doesn’t. The discussion would boil down to an objective examination of who, what, when, where, how and why.

    Self-induced diseases like cirrhosis have their etiology and sicke-cell anemia has its.

    A discussion of most diseases is not fraught with the problems that impair most race/crime/violence discussions.


  269. j, you wrote:

    Your post begins with you believe that violence is based specifically to what race you belong to. (ie causation) and then you end with Blacks being violent because of the sports they participate in (correlation).

    I believe success in sports like boxing and football derives from one’s capacity for violence.

    Hence, sports are often a socially acceptable venue for otherwise problematic behaviors.

    Like the fact the the most powerful street gang in the world is the US Marine Corps. A lot of Marines have been known to exercise their violent tendencies BEFORE and AFTER their service.


  270. @ no_slappz

    Yeah… is this “disease” analogy going to shed new light on the subject? Would it be easier just to talk directly about your ideas about rape or crime statistics?


  271. With regard to what you said No_Slappz and following it from my initial question and your response. What you say here about boxing/football and the US. marines is ultimately a reflection of U.S. society

    1. For allowing those sports, if what you say is correct
    2. The ‘training to make a ‘competent’ (here read violent) marine, and also the lack of rehabilitation process for returnees etc?

    However, it would not tie into causation and specifically a race, or certain races may be more violent…No??…Yes…Or some other factor(s)??


  272. King,

    I don’t have a problem with ignoring race at the macro level, but many others (including many blacks) do. How about we do away with Affirmative Action, which uses race in an attempt to increase the level of success among blacks (and LOTS of others)? And maybe guys like Abagond wil stop blaming white people for 75% of the problems facing blacks. I think what you suggested is a good idea. Probably not workable though, because even if we ignored race officially, we would still be stuck with unequal results in levels of achievement, crime, illegitimacy etc., which people tend to notice.

    You wrote:

    Race/ethnicity is a categorical label of convenience, there is really no such thing a “black people,” there are only black peoples

    Here in the US (and my focus has been on the US) , we are talking about American Negroes. I have been talking about those blacks who are descendents of slaves brought to the US. We are one people with one culture.

    Trying to describe “how black people act” is like trying to describe the characteristics of red cars

    Describing American blacks is more like talking about a particular model of a general make of car.

    Does buying stocks make you money?
    Are canines good pets?
    Is liquid poisonous?

    Like Alte, you are asking the wrong questions. More pertinent questions would be:

    Will stock A make an investor money as compared to stock B?

    Are German Shepards more aggressive toward children than Labradors?

    Is flouridated water carcinogenic?


  273. “Here in the US (and my focus has been on the US) , we are talking about American Negroes. I have been talking about those blacks who are descendents of slaves brought to the US. We are one people with one culture.

    But that is the very extent of your complete misunderstanding. Firstly, we must consider, not only the descendants of slaves, but also those who have immigrated here to America in all the years since slavery. But then, even “American Negroes” are not one culture or one people. There are many different black cultures within blackness. Some are educated, and some are not. Some are wealthy, some are violent, some are Democrats, a few are Republicans. They live in different places, and eat different foods, they even talk different. There is as much diversity within blackness as there is in all of the races without.

    That is why you can’t simply link “black people” as a whole to black crime statistics. Truth be known, most of the black crime is coming out of a certain, specific, and identifiable group within the black monolith. MOST of the black subcultures are not very much different than any other ethnic group. They have nothing to do with crime, and are as harmed, and disgusted by it as every other citizen.

    The fact that there is a certain black criminal subculture that deals drugs, fights gang wars, supports prostitution, etc., and that their numbers spike the statistics for the “black people,” everywhere, has nothing to do with the black people who are not in that subculture.

    People have to stop defining blacks based on the lowest common cultural denominator. We don’t define white people by those who cook up meth in the trailer parks. We don’t define Asians based on the the Yakuza. The VAST majority of black people are not criminals—and they can’t control, or somehow be collectively responsible, for those who are!

    The only black people who can be linked to black crime statistics are black criminals. End of story. Same as any other race.


  274. King,

    I am an American Negro. I will focus on problems relating to AMERICANS generally and to AMERICAN NEGROES in particular.

    Your views are very similar to Alte’s. You both seek to eliminate problems related to race by disbursing the range of people analyzed and the parameters of analysis. I’m surprised you didn’t recite the old “Race does not exist” mantra of those seeking to avoid problems associated with racial differences. I hope I did not inspire you in this regard.

    You wrote:

    The VAST majority of black people are not criminals—and they can’t control, or somehow be collectively responsible, for those who are!

    I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. Nonetheless, we have a higher percentage of violent criminals among us than other groups do. This is a fact! I don’t like it. You don’t like it. But there it is! Deal with it!


  275. “I am an American Negro. I will focus on problems relating to AMERICANS generally and to AMERICAN NEGROES in particular.”

    Hey!!! Is anyone inside your head actually listening??? American Negroes are NOT ONE MONOLITHIC CULTURE>>Yes, AMERICAN NEGROS!!! GET It? We’re NOT all the same culture. Should I say it one more time?

    Just like people with different skin colors can have different cultures, so can people WITH THE SAME SKIN COLOR!

    EVEN IF THEY LIVE IN THE SAME COUNTRY.

    Besides, who says “Negroes” any more?


  276. “Nonetheless, we have a higher percentage of violent criminals among us than other groups do. This is a fact! I don’t like it. You don’t like it.”

    I don’t have a problem accepting that. It doesn’t have anything at all to do with me, does it?


  277. on Tue 13 Apr 2010 at 02:29:23 Menelik Charles

    no_slappz said:

    Meanwhile, back here in America, blacks have created massive problems for themselves through illegitimacy and fatherlessness.

    Menelik replies:

    I think it’s fair to say that blacks perpetuate these two social phenomenons but to say they created it, well, this statement just about represents the most ahistorical one you’ve come up with to my knowledge!

    In truth, we both know who first created fatherlessness, baby mammas and rampant illegitimacy among African-Americans. And more so since the latter day Black victims of these problems carry the very names, and speak in the same tongue, of the persons and race responsible for what you call “massive problems”.

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  278. King,

    This Negro says Negroes! Let’s just review the facts, Jack:

    1) American Negroes vote Democratic in overwhelming numbers. Barack Obama received 96% of the Negro vote in 2008.

    2) American Negroes pretty much like the same type of music: R&B (ie Rap mostly). Nothing wrong with that, but we have fairly limited musical tastes as a group. We don’t even support Jazz or Blues to any great degree anymore.

    3) For those of us who enjoy sports (and that’s most American Negro males) we focus intently on two of those: basketball and football.

    4) American Negroes have an illegitimacy rate of 70%, which doesn’t seem to be effected at all by class.

    5) American Negroes are overwhelmingly Christian, despite 4.

    6) American Negroes have a tendency to blame all of our problems on whites.

    Perhaps this doesn’t look like cultural cohesion to you, but it sure seems like it to me.

    You say black crime has not affected you. So be it. Most of the black people I know HAVE been affected by black crime, either personally or through family and friends. Not to mention the minor problem of not being able to get cabs in NYC due to the prevalence of black crime and other such problems. Perhaps its me. Maybe I live a charmed life so far outside the Negro mainstream that my expericence with black crime is actually distorted. Maybe most blacks don’t experience crime. Maybe I’m the only one. Maybe I’m all wet concerning American Negro culture. Maybe there is no such thing as American Negro culture or American WASP culture or maybe there is no such thing as culture. Who knows? Who cares? Fuck it! I’m just a black man trying to maintain his sense of integrity in a cold and cruel world. One thing I will continue to do is to be realistic about our situation. Wishful thinking and doubletalk regarding race will never get us anywhere.


  279. on Tue 13 Apr 2010 at 07:13:16 Menelik Charles

    I dunno about you guys but I sort of like RR and what he has to say…though I take issues with the assertion that complaint is a form of cultural expression!

    Go Bro!

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  280. menelik charles, you wrote:

    In truth, we both know who first created fatherlessness, baby mammas and rampant illegitimacy among African-Americans. And more so since the latter day Black victims of these problems carry the very names, and speak in the same tongue, of the persons and race responsible for what you call “massive problems”.

    Yeah, that’s it. You’ve taken the black alternate reality into new territory. You’re claiming whites are responsible for injecting sex into black life. You’re selling the notion that sex is an uncontrolled infection afflicting blacks in ways they cannot control and that it has persisted, generation after generation.

    Wow. I am impressed with that one. The ultimate statement on black victimization.


  281. Ó Dochartaigh,

    Ankhesen

    Why is that

    *blink* Whom are they going to report it to? That cares?


  282. “Racist Stereotypes – Better Than Google!”

    Or so No Slappz seems to be believe.


  283. on Tue 13 Apr 2010 at 12:36:49 Menelik Charles

    In truth, we both know who first created fatherlessness, baby mammas and rampant illegitimacy among African-Americans. And more so since the latter day Black victims of these problems carry the very names, and speak in the same tongue, of the persons and race responsible for what you call “massive problems”.

    o_slappz said:

    Yeah, that’s it. You’ve taken the black alternate reality into new territory. You’re claiming whites are responsible for injecting sex into black life. You’re selling the notion that sex is an uncontrolled infection afflicting blacks in ways they cannot control and that it has persisted, generation after generation.

    Menelik replied:

    first, history is NOT an “alternate reality”! Second, by removing sophisticated cultures e.g. languages and family structures, whites left a gaping hole into which they implanted a range of dysfunctional behaviours which are apparent for all to see in the present

    You choice not to place certain behaviours in their proper context but instead choose to torment African-Americans (who have a condition in place of a culture) with what afflicts them.

    I’ve seen your kind before, Mr. Typically they’re groupies for the likes ‘celebrity’ holocaust deniers. You are a cruel and pathetic man whose thoughts I would hate to have revolving around my head!

    Mr Menelik Charles
    (a descendant of slaves)
    London England


  284. RR,

    The biggest supporters of rap music (financially) are suburbans White kids, so I don’t know about that. Do you go door to door asking Black people what they like, and do you fit into all the stereotypes you listed? You seem really eager to essentialize Blacks, but have yet to indicate that you include yourself in that group. If X applies to (all) Blacks and you are Black, logically X applies to you too.


  285. With regard to

    .”..One thing I will continue to do is to be realistic about our situation. Wishful thinking and doubletalk regarding race will never get us anywhere…”

    With regard to the aforesaid, unfortunately I think you are in
    ‘doubletalk’ and ‘wishful thinking’ regarding race…unfortunately you just cannot see it, which ironically is the same thing you are alleging for the Black race in the US who cannot ”recognise their own social ills etc (mutatis mutandis)


  286. And I should have added…

    This would justify why you would say that ‘you and White racists’ are concerned about Blacks in US ills – as if White racists are truly concerned about it – except for their own well being and survival.

    Personally I do not think you are concerned,


  287. RR:

    J makes a good point: if you are so concerned about blacks then how come you sound so much like those who mean black people no good??


  288. RR:

    Rap is not a kind of R&B. They are two different styles of music, although, yes, sometimes they are used in the same song. Jill Scott is R&B, 50 Cent is rap. They are very different. Thus the supposed narrowness of black people’s taste in music.

    It is true that whites are the main supporters of blues and jazz these days – but the same is true of rap, as Jasmin points out.


  289. King said:

    “Besides, who says “Negroes” any more?”

    Besides RR the only other person on this thread to use it was Peter Lerman:

    “Penis size? Of course, “muh dik.” That’s the ultimate display of Negro logic. If you can no longer argue the relevant facts, start talking about penis size and sex with white women. Muh dik. Is that all you “people” ever think about?”


  290. I was going to say a ‘House Negro’ would but I am not sure if Abagond would have permitted this joke

    ha ha ha ha


  291. @ RR

    I don’t think that even you truly believe that the things that you listed above constitute a “culture.” I mean, it’s not a big shock that there was overwhelming support for the first black president by the black populace. But then again, many cultures voted for Barack Obama. Voting for him (even overwhelmingly) doesn’t make a culture.

    “2) American Negroes pretty much like the same type of music: R&B”

    Not really. I’d say that R&B and R&B/Pop/Rap hybrid music has become pretty mainstream these days. But the reverse has also happened. A lot of black young people listen to a much broader range of music. R&B is probably only one of the many kinds of music that they listen to.

    “3) For those of us who enjoy sports (and that’s most American Negro males) we focus intently on two of those: basketball and football.”

    WHAT??? How about baseball? I have lots of friends who like baseball. But also, the hard core sports fanatics just watch whatever comes on ESPN. Seriously, there is absolutely no way that you could know what sports black guys are watching at home. You’re just relying on old stereotypes.

    “Maybe I live a charmed life so far outside the Negro mainstream that my experience with black crime is actually distorted.”

    If you actually do live outside of the “Negro mainstream” then you should be more open to the the possibility that some of your ideas may not be up to date.

    ———–
    I find that most black people, on a fundamental level, are the same as people of other ethnicities. They aren’t more violent, or more aggressive, or trouble prone. However, in just about every city, there are small, predominantly black trouble spots. We all know about these places.

    Here in L.A. it’s
    1) South Central
    2) Watts
    3) Compton
    4) Inglewood

    These areas are always poor, with high dropout rates, and poor school performance. They also are full of drug traffic, crime, and violence. There is a highly developed gang culture in these areas, and a distrust of the police. 80% of all black crime is black on black and happens in these hot spots. I’ll say it again… The vast majority of black crime doesn’t even effect white people.

    Everyone knows where these places are, and everyone knows that all of the IRREGULAR crime numbers come out of these problem communities. If you took all of these places out of the equation, black crime statistics would probably be pretty close to those of whites.

    Now, there are a lot of predominantly white neighborhoods around, since whites are still the majority ethnicity in the United States. A minority of these neighborhoods are sketchy, but most of them are average to excellent. Predominantly white areas are generally thought of as nice places to live.

    However, in today’s world, when black people become financially successful, they seldom move into an upscale, all-black enclave, as they did in the past. Today, they can move almost anywhere they want, So they mix in to diverse and pluralistic neighborhoods, along with successful people of other races.

    As a result, the only neighborhood that ends up being identified as a predominantly black place is the ghetto. People start calling it “the black part of town” or “where the black people live,” even though black people live all over town, just not in as dense a racial concentration. The ghetto becomes the most visible face of “blackness” to the rest of the community. Given enough time, they begin to think of black people as ghetto people and criminals. They begin to hold all black people collectively responsible for what happens in the ghetto.

    But the truth is that the black people who don’t live in the ghetto have no more power to fix things there than the white people who don’t live in the ghetto. Rape statistics are not owned by a color, or an ethnicity, they are just a tool to help the police to better plan their resources. They were never intended to be, nor can they be, used as a scoreboard to determine what color of people are “more likely” to commit certain crimes. That’s just not the way it works.


  292. Menelik Charles,

    I appreciate your kind words.

    Jasmin,

    I am aware that many whites buy Rap music, but a higher percentage of blacks listen to it. I listen to it myself. I do not consider myself outside of American Negro culture. I am a product of it in many ways. My point is that we are somewhat monolithic, at least compared to American whites.

    J wrote:

    as if White racists are truly concerned about it – except for their own well being and survival.

    Well, why shouldn’t they be concerned about their own survival? You expect the white man to love you. The white man does not have to love you. Get over it!

    Abagond wrote:

    Rap is not a kind of R&B

    Rap is a sub-genre of R&B just as Heavy Metal is a sub-genre of Rock. And blacks listen to Rap music to a much greater extent than they listen to Jazz or Blues. That is, we support Rap music more than we support Jazz or Blues.

    J makes a good point: if you are so concerned about blacks then how come you sound so much like those who mean black people no good??

    J makes an asinine point. One can receive useful information from another whether they intend to help you or not. If you consider white racists your enemies, study your enemies. Listen to what they have to say. Know what drives them. Are the questions they raise reasonable? If a white racist points out that illegitimacy is a big problem in the black community, does the source of the comment make the comment less true? Stop focusing on how racists state their arguments and focus on what they are saying.

    Like J, you want white people to love you and you become offended when they don’t. I don’t expect white people to love me. I expect them to act in their rational self-interest, just as other people, including blacks, do. You act as though racism is some sort of disease that makes people crazy. The problem is that you have a very immature view of race and race relations. I view racism as a natural part of human nature. Certainly, it is not a good thing when taken to extremes, but racism is the nature of the human beast. We need to deal with this reality.


  293. King,

    Blacks listen to R&B in higher percentages than other groups listen to R&B. This is the point. Regarding violent crime, we commit more of it, on a percentage basis, than other groups. THIS IS A FACT!

    But the truth is that the black people who don’t live in the ghetto have no more power to fix things there than the white people who don’t live in the ghetto.

    I agree with this statement. But then why do blacks blame the problems of the slums on whites? Abagond (and he is hardly unique) believes that 75% of our problems are due to white racism. This belief is insane! It flies in the face of logic. But many blacks have similar thoughts.

    Although I agree with your statement, whites (and some blacks like Barack Obama) support policies that make life in the slums much harder than it has to be. Two of the most deterimental policies are listed below:

    1) The concerted effort to undermine morality (i.e. Christianity, law and order, sexual restraint).

    2) Unfettered immigration.

    These are policies we can change.

    Rape statistics are not owned by a color, or an ethnicity

    Rape stats don’t have to be “owned” by a race to be influenced by race. The races vary in propensity to commit crime. This is a reality.


  294. “Regarding violent crime, we commit more of it, on a percentage basis, than other groups. THIS IS A FACT!”

    We do? Who is “we?” Do you mean that you and I commit more crime? Why are you still trying to own something that you have no part in, and have no control over?

    If you want to say that black criminals commit crimes at a higher per capita rate (based on their percentage of the U.S. population) than white criminals do, then you would be correct. But that is an academic point that leads people to yawn and cross their eyes.

    If you go around saying the “WE commit more crime,” then you’re making it sound as if we, as black people, have some great wrong that we must admit to and apologize for.

    If we’re not criminals, then we don’t—not any more than brunets must apologize if it turns out that brown-haired people commit more crimes than blondes or redheads.


  295. With regard to:

    “Well, why shouldn’t they be concerned about their own survival? You expect the white man to love you. The white man does not have to love you. Get over it!!”

    And this is exactly my point, and why I suggested previously that I believe you are a ‘White’ person, in a conversation with another person here.

    With regard to the aforesaid, I knew you would miss the point altogether.

    My point is why would you in unison and in conjunction with White racists – this your opwn words here on two occasions, talk about shooting yourself in the foot – be concerned with the social ills problems of Black people.

    White racist are not – when they do become ‘concerned’ it is because they think the ‘Black plague’ or ‘Black peril’ is going to destroy ‘White’ civilization.

    And I am sure you are aware that this is the ‘classic’ White racist argument, along with Black preponderance to violence, Blacks being rapists, and Blacks being less intelligent – all arguements you have espoused here.

    Need I say anymore??


  296. Need I say anymore??

    ha ha..I think I will

    With regard to he issue:

    “Like J, you want white people to love you”

    This is a strange, illogical and preposterous position to adopt.

    Here are you allegedly a Black poster – I aver not endorsing and supporting the views of even the most extremist of racist and you have the temerity to suggest
    that Blacks who challenge this is seeking White peoples’ affections.

    Now seriously, what would you expect any self-loving respecting Black person to do in this situation??

    However, teh above quote reveals much more about you and your ‘mindset’…

    Need I say anymore again…ha ha


  297. Back again ha ha

    Just one more question for now:

    ..And why would you want to associate yourself with (extreme) White racists??


  298. King wrote:

    If you want to say that black criminals commit crimes at a higher per capita rate (based on their percentage of the U.S. population) than white criminals do, then you would be correct.

    I have already stated this, multiple times.

    But that is an academic point that leads people to yawn and cross their eyes.

    No it doesn’t! It gets many people quite excited. Black people (and many white people) really hate the fact that blacks commit more crime than whites. It’s depressing. Why does it bother me? Because I am a Negro American and I would like to see Americans, especially American Negroes achieve.

    If you go around saying the “WE commit more crime,” then you’re making it sound as if we, as black people, have some great wrong that we must admit to and apologize for.

    You are making a distinction without a difference. If you wish to characterize yourself as something other than black, that’s cool. If you wish to say you that you are not a criminal and don’t have anything to do with the black crime rate, that’s fine too. But if you consider yourself black, you own the black crime problem whether you like it or not. 80% of the players in the NBA are black, that is to say WE comprise 80% of the players in the NBA. This does not mean that you or I play in the NBA or even watch the game. Get it?

    If you go around saying the “WE commit more crime,” then you’re making it sound as if we, as black people, have some great wrong that we must admit to and apologize for.

    It depends on how one chooses to look at it. If crime is really beyond our control, then maybe the racists are right. Maybe we have a genetic propensity for crime. If this is the case, then I agree with you. We have nothing to apologize for because it wouldn’t be our fault that we commit more crime. But by that line of reasoning, whites would be justified in instituting segregationist measures to protect themselves from black crime. After all, if blacks are genetically predisposed to commit crime, that’s not the fault of whites.

    If, on the other hand, black crime can be mitigated through moral suasion and enforcement of our immigration laws, then WE own the problem.

    I prefer the latter case.


  299. RR,

    How would you know if a higher percentage of Blacks listen to Rap music? The point of tracking music sales is that it’s a pretty efficient count that doesn’t take research resources. Even a survey wouldn’t do a very good job, because a) they tend to be used by media companies who ask questions in a way to inflate their alleged “popularity” and b) if you just ask people what music they “listen” to, almost every genre will be overestimated, because everyone has “listened” to a bunch of genres a time or two.


  300. “No it doesn’t! It gets many people quite excited. Black people (and many white people) really hate the fact that blacks commit more crime than whites. It’s depressing. Why does it bother me? Because I am a Negro American and I would like to see Americans, especially American Negroes achieve.”

    You forgot to say “per capita.”

    Yes, but the people who get all excited are fools.

    Anyway, blacks don’t commit more crimes than Whites. Black criminals commit more crimes, per capita, than white criminals, and there is a big difference.

    White people can’t control white criminals, and black people can’t control black criminals, and trying to play this game or how many black marbles are in the bottle as compared to how many white marbles, is a fools errand.

    If somebody robs you, or rapes you, or sells your kids drugs, the last thing that you care about is how much melanin was in his skin. It really doesn’t matter, what race a criminal is. What matters is his criminal actions. Society should have the same response, and the same concern with all criminals. Counting them up by race achieves nothing. You are so thoroughly steeped in this idea that all blacks are responsible for all other blacks, that you’ve become a slave within your own prison of illogic.

    “But if you consider yourself black, you own the black crime problem whether you like it or not.”

    This is a prime example of your perverse illogic. You accept (at least for the sake of argument) that I’m not a criminal. You admit that I can’t go out and stop black crime. Sure, I can do all of the things that people do—plead, bribe, beg, threaten—but people don’t change unless they truly want to. They can’t really be forced. So how am I responsible for black criminals, just because I’m black? Are all latino’s responsible for latino criminals? Are whites responsible for white criminals?

    OR do we all pay our taxes to the same police department. Get real.

    “80% of the players in the NBA are black, that is to say WE comprise 80% of the players”

    With athletes, we both agree with, and support, what they are doing. Our association with them is based on their performance, not their race. Sure, we see that they are black, but that doesn’t make us responsible for their successes or failures. But with black criminals, we do not support them, in fact, we despise them! So why in the world should we be responsible for their actions?

    “If crime is really beyond our control, then maybe the racists are right. Maybe we have a genetic propensity for crime. If this is the case, then I agree with you. We have nothing to apologize for because it wouldn’t be our fault that we commit more crime. But by that line of reasoning, whites would be justified in instituting segregationist measures to protect themselves from black crime.”

    Hahaha! The Coup de grâce of ridiculous thinking. So, in your mind, because black non-criminals can’t somehow control the behavior of black criminals, white people would be perfectly justified in segregating themselves from ALL black people. Do you realize how stupid that sounds? They should do this, even though white people can’t seem to control white criminals either. Come to think of it, Asians can’t control Asian criminals. But, I guess because black criminals commit crimes at a higher per capita rate, then it makes perfect sense to quarantine everybody with dark skin.

    Well, before we fall to that extreme, lets try running this idea up the flagpole: Hows about we just segregating all the CRIMINALS, no matter what their color… we’ll call it JAIL.


  301. RR said:

    “Like J, you want white people to love you and you become offended when they don’t. I don’t expect white people to love me. I expect them to act in their rational self-interest, just as other people, including blacks, do. You act as though racism is some sort of disease that makes people crazy. The problem is that you have a very immature view of race and race relations. I view racism as a natural part of human nature. Certainly, it is not a good thing when taken to extremes, but racism is the nature of the human beast. We need to deal with this reality.”

    Right, you think it is NATURAL for whites to treat blacks like SHIT. And why not: according to you blacks have much less intelligence and are more given to crime. Darkies are just born bad. What you call maturity I call internalized racism.

    There is a HUGE difference between wanting to be LOVED and not wanting to be treated like SHIT. If I take your comments at face value then YOU apparently do not know the difference.


  302. RR:

    Pardon me if you have already answered this question, but why do you use the word Negro? I thought only old white people used that word anymore with a straight face. With your use of that word and the positions you take your comments seem to be lurching into self-parody, like you are playing some huge joke.


  303. abagond said:
    “RR:

    Rap is not a kind of R&B. They are two different styles of music, although, yes, sometimes they are used in the same song. Jill Scott is R&B, 50 Cent is rap. They are very different. Thus the supposed narrowness of black people’s taste in music.”

    Rap/Hip Hop is really an amalgam of black music – Jazz poetry, Reggae Toasting, the beats of Funk, Soul and Rock and Roll!
    What we call R&B today came about in the mid 80’s while Hip Hop/Rap came about in the early 70’s!


  304. If we being pedantic – one of my roles on her he he

    R&B=Rhythm & Blues=1948 (onwards)

    Perhaps RR was reffering to that time period

    he he he


  305. RR said:

    “Here in the US (and my focus has been on the US) , we are talking about American Negroes. I have been talking about those blacks who are descendents of slaves brought to the US. We are one people with one culture.”

    Well, no. When I say “blacks” I am thinking of any person who looks black enough in North America to be affected by racism in a bad way. Most are Black American but not all. There are also Black Canadians and people who came to America and Canada from the Caribbean and Africa. Much of what I say also seems to apply to Britain as well as North America.

    Blackness is a creation of white racism. Black American culture is a side effect, not a cause, of being black.


  306. king, you wrote:

    Anyway, blacks don’t commit more crimes than Whites. Black criminals commit more crimes, per capita, than white criminals, and there is a big difference.

    When it comes to some crimes, in fact, blacks win the prize for highest rate and highest absolute numbers. Murder, for example.

    You might want to analyze the crimes in which blacks and whites are equally — your per-capita measure — involved.


  307. no_slappz, you still don’t get what I’m saying.

    I’m making a distinction between black people, in general, and black criminals. In the same way, I would make the distinction between white people in general and the the white criminal culture.

    If you have two brothers standing in front of you , and one of them has been proven to be a murderer, how much of the responsibility for the murders would you place on the other brother?

    Does the fact that they are brothers even come into play, when you’re talking about responsibility?

    Sure, they are related biologically… but they are not related in responsibility or culpability. You don’t turn to the other brother and say, “How could you let this happen? What’s the matter with you two?”

    We understand that each man stands for his own actions and his owns faults. The same principle is true when dealing with ethnicities. Non-criminals should NEVER be held accountable for the actions of criminals, whether they share the same hair color as the criminal, or come from the same country, of belong to the same religion, or share similar pigmentation.


  308. King,

    LMAO @ we’ll call it jail!

    I’m thinking I should separate myself from all White men and Catholics. With those pedophilia and child molestation rates, they can’t possibly be safe to be around!


  309. @ Jasmin

    Well, RR is being ridiculous!

    Why is he so desperate to hold the entire black population responsible for the actions of the criminals?


  310. He is the same way about believing that blacks lack intelligence. He honestly thinks that black people in the Caribbean are borderline retards even though it goes against all common sense.


  311. What?!! But why the Caribbean, of all places?


  312. Because IQ tests say the average IQ of blacks in the Caribbean is 71. Yet those who come to America have an IQ higher than that of Black Americans. He says this is because they are “self-selected for IQ”. Which is nuts. The difference between those in my own family who got to America and those who did not had nothing to do with intelligence. The immigration laws in regard to West Indians are so screwed up and overly bureaucratic, to put it nicely, that it was more a matter of luck than anything else.


  313. Do not let that derail the thread. I just brought it up to show that RR goes against common sense in other ways to believe that blacks are born bad.


  314. He should avail himself of Malcolm Gladwell’s article from the New Yorker Magazine, Black Like Them if he hasn’t already.

    http://www.gladwell.com/1996/1996_04_29_a_black.htm


  315. king, you wrote:

    I’m making a distinction between black people, in general, and black criminals. In the same way, I would make the distinction between white people in general and the the white criminal culture.

    If you have two brothers standing in front of you , and one of them has been proven to be a murderer, how much of the responsibility for the murders would you place on the other brother?

    You have a problem understanding the difference between discrete events and common ground.

    Look at this way, sickle-cell anemia afflicts many people. But it is more prevalent among blacks than whites? Why?

    Each case of sickle-cell anemia is a discrete event, but there is some aspect of being black that accounts for its more-frequent appearance among blacks.


  316. So… then, breaking the law is… what, a genetic disease?

    Are you really that stupid? Or is this just an act for my benefit?

    OK then, please site the peer-reviewed, scientific study that identifies the “crime causing” nucleotide sequence. Or else, please identify which proteins must be damaged or missing in order to effectively cause this deviation. Or, is the problem in the long-sequence RNA? What causes this genetic deviation, or insufficiency?

    Where’s the study? Who conducted it? Where was it field or lab tested? When was it published, and in what scientific review? What were the published responses from the top genetic specialists?

    It might help if you could provide links to this information.

    Or… is this your own stupid contribution to something you don’t understand? Do you actually have ANY academic/scientific evidence for this scientific hypothesis?

    I can provide you with everything that I’ve asked for above, for Sickle Cell Anemia. It’s a fully documented, peer-reviewed, and accepted, genetic disorder. So the same should be available for your mystery disease. Post it.


  317. on Wed 14 Apr 2010 at 21:15:30 Patricia Kayden

    Have to admit that I also believed the “Black men commit the most rapes” hype.

    Good article — pointing out errors and lies is always a good thing.

    The one thing I know for sure is that White men commit alot of sexual crimes against children — at least in North America. I’m not saying that Black men don’t commit similar crimes, but it seems that every time I hear about a child being raped, the predator is a White male.

    With the sad exception of the Shaniya Davis case, which sickens me to this day.


  318. Patricia,

    I agree, we do hear a lot about White male pedophiles. (Pedophilia is a diagnosable psychiatric disorder, and most are White males in their 30s.) The thing is Whiteness is not what makes someone (i.e., predisposes him/her) to pedophilia, just as Blackness doesn’t predispose someone to rape. Obviously rape is not a psychiatric disorder, but it’s implicated so often in sexual disorders (pedophilia, frotteurism, voyeurism, etc.) that researchers do look at commonalities between people in treatment. They’ve found higher testosterone levels, more negative attitudes about women, and higher sex drives for lots of disorders, but race isn’t a risk factor. The best you could do to implicate race in anything (as a causal factor) would be to link it to a combination of factors, because there’s no way you could glean anything out of the .1% difference between the races that would be strong enough to predict a character trait on its own.


  319. With regard to:

    “The one thing I know for sure is that White men commit alot of sexual crimes against children — at least in North America”…

    I have this funny feeling that there will NOT be any stats to help create and foster this ‘stereotype’ in the U.S….

    And if so this refers to the earlier point made regarding ‘Philosophy of Science’, viz why certain phenomea are measured and others are not, especially in the ‘social sciences’ and ‘society’ per se??


  320. With regard to:

    “The best you could do to implicate race in anything (as a causal factor) would be to link it to a combination of factors, because there’s no way you could glean anything…”

    Just to add that linking other variables etc may or may not establish ‘causation’.

    Causation ie ’cause and effect is the very essence of ‘science’, and is related to issues like the ‘predictive power’ to determine the outcome a number of events, under a variety of different settings, empiricism, epistemology (knowledege) and so forth…


  321. j,

    With regard to:

    “The one thing I know for sure is that White men commit alot of sexual crimes against children — at least in North America”…

    I have this funny feeling that there will NOT be any stats to help create and foster this ’stereotype’ in the U.S….

    “Those inmates who were convicted of committing violent acts against children were more like to have been white, a percentage of nearly 70%, than any other race.”

    “White inmates were nearly three times more likely to have victimized a child than black inmates.”

    http://ezfame.com/tag/pedophiles/

    Original source: Survey of Inmates of State Correctional Facilities by the U.S. Department of Justice Bureau of Justice Statistics (separates by race as well as by Hispanic and non-Hispanic origin)
    ;)


  322. Thanks Natasha

    ha ha ha ha ha!!

    I will have to partly retract what I said then on the ‘Philosophy of Science’ and ask where are the theories to develop and write books etc offering an explanation
    for this phenomena??

    One for No_Slappz methinks…and not to forget RR too??

    Since I do not know much on racial profiling in the U.S.
    with regard to crimes – something not the norm here in the UK. One thing that caught me is that they have differentiated ‘Hispanic from Whites’ in Child abuse
    but not in rape cases

    he he he he


  323. “White inmates were nearly three times more likely to have victimized a child than black inmates.”

    From anecdotal observations I’ve had, this is true. Funny these stats aren’t bandied about like the rape statistics are.


  324. king, you wrote:

    So… then, breaking the law is… what, a genetic disease?

    The “law” is a social construct. In the US in almost every scenario it is illegal for one human to kill another. However, in many islamic countries a husband can kill his wife with impunity.

    Meanwhile, there’s nothing about killing that is contrived, which means “breaking the law” is irrelevant. The key element is the homicidal anger that defines the moment an untimely death occurs, when one unlucky person succumbs to the violent rage of another.

    Those violent rages arise most often among blacks, who, as I have said, and the DOJ confirms, kill in greater numbers and at a much greater rate than whites.

    Why don’t you take a stab at explaining why lethal rages overtake blacks more than whites?


  325. Yeah yeah, great…

    PLEASE PROVIDE THE SCIENTIFIC STUDY that demonstrates that violence or rage is a genetic disease.

    Where’s the study? Who conducted it? Where was it field or lab tested? When was it published, and in what scientific review? What were the published responses from the top genetic specialists?

    Links please.


  326. J,

    Spot on–I was in a hurry and didn’t want to bother explaining causation vs. correlation, but long story short 1) you can never prove anything, because just one counterexample will knock everything down and 2) to suggest that one thing causes another you have to do a controlled experiment, which is impossible under the parameters of the current discussion, for ethical concerns. So even though we use “cause” all the time in casual conversation, we can’t actually say “smoking causes lung cancer”, because not all smokers have lung cancer, so there must be additional components.


  327. No Slappz:

    This thread is about rape, not murder. J asked you for proof and you want to change the subject. No.


  328. No Slappz:

    You like to tell us how fact-based your thinking is. Well, now is your chance.


  329. *cue Final Jeopardy music in the background* ;-)


  330. They don’t compile rape statistics here in Canada based on race, as they don’t with other criminal activities. However, I can attest to the fact that, albeit anecdotal, that most of the rapists and other sexual predators are white. Does that mean that all white men are rapists or sexual predators? No. To assume such from my vantage point would be ridiculous. Besides which, as many other posters have written, these statistics must be put into context, not just quoted by rote.


  331. herneith,

    In fact, statistics on race and crime in Canada do slip out.

    A Northern taboo: Research on race, crime, and criminal justice in Canada.

    by Scot Wortley

    Although statistics on race and crime are not normally released in Canada, the information that is available suggests that certain racial minorities are also over-represented in the Canadian correctional system. Table 1 combines data from the 1996 Census (www.statcan.ca) with data released by federal corrections (Solicitor General of Canada 1997). The data reveal that while aboriginal Canadians represent approximately 4% of the population, they account for 14% of federal prison inmates. Similarly, while black people account for only 2% of the population, they represent over 6% of those in federal correctional institutions. Overall, aboriginals suffer from the highest incarceration rate (184.85 per 100,000), followed closely by African- Canadians (146.37).


  332. Sorry No_Slappz, but you left out the most relevant information

    “What accounts for the apparent relationship between race and crime?

    Two contradictory explanations are often proposed. The first explanation is that minority groups suffer from discrimination within the criminal justice system. Compared to white people, minorities are more likely to be arrested, convicted, and punished for their behaviour.

    The second explanation maintains that racial disparities in prison populations are caused by higher rates of offending among minority groups…”

    At least you could have quoted the article in its context rather than just have picked the part you wanted.

    This is a very bad example of just googling an item, since the piece continues thus

    “The Argument Against The Collection of Race-Crime Statistics

    Critics maintain that race-crime statistics present many dangers and that these dangers outweigh the potential usefulness of this type of information (Roberts 1994; Doob 1991). The argument against race-crime statistics can be divided into three major points: 1) the poor quality of crime statistics; 2) the difficulty of measuring race; and 3) the possibility that race-crime statistics will be used to support racist theories of crime and subsequently justify discrimination against racial minorities.

    The accuracy of crime statistics — particularly official crime statistics — is often questioned (Nettler 1978; DeKeseredy and Schwartz 1996). One criticism is that official data only capture crimes that have …”

    http://www.questia.com/googleScholar.qst;jsessionid=LGTYXJmBN181kYVrskRgWl5kxL9fYHWJKwvhLvQ7yfgQYWysHpg8!-1568431780!-459975982?docId=5001256297


  333. Aren’t you supposed to be looking up the studies upon which you’ve based your brilliant Darky DNA idea on?

    So, Native Americans, (Aborigine) and Blacks, suffer abnormally high incarceration rates. Hey! …weren’t those the very same people who were purposely kept on the bottom rung of Canadian society for hundreds of years, by white people?

    I wonder where they developed these problems, like drinking and taking drugs? Somehow, their morality has gotten all screwed up! There must be some reason for it…

    Oh! I almost had it… don’t worry, it will come back to me.


  334. Scott Wortley has also been an authority on racial profiling in Canada:

    http://criminology.utoronto.ca/home/scot_wortley.html

    In any case, since there is no stats based on who is committing what crimes, what’s that got to do with blacks committing rapes disproportionate to the rest of the populace in Canada? Hence one cannot draw any conclusions in that regards. However, Wortley uses these stats to show injustice in the court system, hence his use of race in these numbers. He also uses stats to show that racial profiling exists. I will reiterate, most of the rapist and sexual predators I have come across are white. Most of the blacks convicted of crimes are for economic reasons, not because they are out raping women, or white women en masse. This is where context comes in. What it boils down to, is that a miscreant is a miscreant regardless of race. If a particular group is being profiled, the police are bound to find some criminals among those they stop. Visibility goes a long way in these instances. If a group is being targeted, other ‘criminals’ are getting away with other crimes since the police are not targeting their group in particular. As for the overly represented aboriginals in the Corrections system, that can be put down to residential schools combined with history, which went, and goes a long way in wreaking havoc on past and present generations of aboriginals. But this post isn’t about aboriginal people. It is about the myth of the black ‘rape-hound’ which is essentially the gist of this post, in particular raping white women for this is what this fear is about really. When stats are brought up about intra-racial rape for example, these racists will conveniently downplay them. They aren’t concerned about black or racialized women being raped, however, they are concerned when white women are raped. If they had any decency and morals, they should be concerned when any women is raped. They use these stats for their own racist agenda.


  335. And if we reverse the process again, with regard to the figures that you have provided, this time for Canada.

    It could be argued that whenever, ‘People of Color’ live vis-a-vis ‘Whites’, whether it be in New Zealand, America, Britain, France, Australia, Canada, South Africa (add any other country) their socio-economic indicators with regard to quality of life is always below that of Whites

    Just another statistics I thought I would throw in there


  336. Hey! …weren’t those the very same people who were purposely kept on the bottom rung of Canadian society for hundreds of years, by white people?

    That’s it in a nutshell. Human Rights legislation came into effect fairly recently considering, in Canada. Mass immigration of racialized people did not occur until the mid to late 1960s’. Many of the right wingers still detest Trudeau for allowing this. Although the black Canadian population was very small before that, they suffered a history of discrimination almost as bad as the blacks in the States. You just never hear, heard about it. They had school segregation in some parts, many areas were off limits to black, anti-Asian(yellow peril), rampant anti-semitism, etc., was the norm. There were certain signs saying no blacks, jews or dogs allowed. There was even a riot at Christie pits between jews and gentiles in the 1930s’ at a place called Christie Pits(a park). As much as they like to project themselves as ‘not like the racist Americans’ this was not so.


  337. “Although the black Canadian population was very small before that, they suffered a history of discrimination almost as bad as the blacks in the States… They had school segregation in some parts, many areas were off limits to black, anti-Asian(yellow peril), rampant anti-semitism, etc., was the norm… There were certain signs saying no blacks, jews or dogs allowed.”

    You don’t say?
    Aren’t they over that yet?
    Whatever are they doing in Jail?


  338. King said to no_slappz:
    “So… then, breaking the law is… what, a genetic disease?

    Are you really that stupid? Or is this just an act for my benefit?”

    The former! LOL!
    Pay no attention to no_slappz!


  339. I don’t think black men are more prone to commit rape, however, black men do commit much more crime than other races in America because of the environment they grow up in. 99% of all the ghettos in America a predominantly black. A lot of blk men are not raised in good homes that teach proper morals.


  340. King,

    You don’t want to be lumped in with black criminals. I understand that. You are not directly responsible for the black crime rate (assuming you have not fathered any children out of wedlock and are actively helping to raise any children you have within wedlock). But because you are a black male (presumably) you will nonetheless possibly suffer because of the outsized crime rate of black men. Black people exalted in Obama’s victory mainly because he was a black man and he was one of us (supposedly). We took collective pleasure in his winning the white house. Should we have done this? After all, very few of us participated in his scholastic or legislative achievements. So, why were black people so excited about Obama’s victory? Why did we view his victory as our own? For the same reason Italians get excited about Columbus (but resent like hell references to the Mafia) or that Jews are proud of Einstein (but dismiss outsized Jewish involvement in bringing the Communist party to power in the former Soviet Union) etc. Humans have a tendency to inflate our tribal achievements and minimize our tribal failures. This is human nature.

    You wrote:

    “Yes, but the people who get all excited [about race differentials] are fools.”

    No they aren’t. They are tribalists. Most people are. We (that is, everyone except you) all have a tendency to favor our own and to disparage those outside of our group. This is the nature of human beings.

    With athletes, we both agree with, and support, what they are doing Our association with them is based on their performance, not their race

    BULL! Our association with ball players is based on their performance AND their race! Note, blacks, generally speaking, don’t identify with stellar Rock musicans. Or NHL stars. Or NASCAR racers. Or Nobel prize winning physicists. Why? Because very few blacks are engaged in these endeavors. This is not to say that there aren’t blacks who do follow non-stereotypical fields of endeavor, but some fields are considered stereotypical for a reason.

    Hows about we just segregating all the CRIMINALS, no matter what their color…we’ll call it jail

    This makes sense to me, but blacks will complain about it. We (not you necessarily) complain about this now. Even I don’t like it, even though I advocate for it. No one likes seeing their family members (again, recall the definition of race that Sailer has expounded: race is a large extended family that inbreeds to some degree) locked up in disproportionate numbers, even if they deserve it.


  341. Abagond wrote:

    Right, you think it is NATURAL for whites to treat blacks like SHIT.

    You are being hysterical again. White Americans do not treat black Americans like shit! It seems to me that you have never seen really bad treatment up close. Again, I ask you to back up this statement with FACTS! You quantified the degree to which racism impedes black progress, but you never stated how you wound up with your 75% figure. Could you please provide some evidence that white Americans treat black Americans like shit? And before you do, we need a reference group that we can both agree is/was being treated like shit by some other group. Then we can compare a truly oppressed group with our test case. I suggest the Fur (http://peacewomen.org/news/Sudan/Sept04/lastinghurt.html).

    Pardon me if you have already answered this question, but why do you use the word Negro?

    Because the word is part of the English language and is a perfectly descriptive word. I do not associate negative connotations with the word as I would with “colored” or “nigra”. I also use the word because I know that it will annoy blacks of a particular political inclination. I would much prefer American Negro or American black to “People of color”. I hate the phrase “People of color” as much as black leftists hate the word Negro. So, if you want to annoy me, knock yourself out.

    Well, no. When I say “blacks” I am thinking of any person who looks black enough in North America to be affected by racism in a bad way

    This is your choice. I am focusing on American blacks (descendants of slaves brought to the US) regardless of skin tone and regardless of degree of racial angst.


  342. You don’t want to be lumped in with black criminals. I understand that. You are not directly responsible for the black crime rate

    Of course I don’t. But neither do I feel the need to try and live my life vicariously through the achievements of other black people. I am my own person. I am a black person. But my blackness does not define me. I am many things, and one of them is black. I like being black (among other things), but others like being who they are, and they should.

    “Yes, but the people who get all excited [about race differentials] are fools.”

    No they aren’t. They are tribalists. Most people are.

    If you’re a tribalist, you don’t have to be a racist, but if you’re a racist, you must first begin as a tribalist.


  343. on Fri 16 Apr 2010 at 10:21:55 Menelik Charles

    King said:

    the people who get all excited [about race differentials] are fools.

    RR replied:

    No they aren’t. The’re tribalists. Most people are. We (everyone except you) all have a tendency to favor our own and to disparage those outside of our group. This is the nature of human beings.

    Menelik replies:

    it certainly is. And examples of racial tribalism are obvious and so extensive that it would take a month to run through maybe a quarter of the examples…and those are just the ones I can think of!

    Open expressions of our tribalistic natures are often suppressed and/or censored by the PC police that dominate social institutions and social environments. This is not necessarily a bad thing as it runs in opposition to the most blatant and uncivil forms of tribalism responsible for so much grief and unfairness e.g. slavery, apartheid, Hitler, Jim Crow, no_slappz etc.

    Still racial tribalism rears its head at every opportunity not least in the recent US presidential elections where Hillary Clinton was said to appeal explicitly to women voters…but which women voters one might ask? The kind that looked like Oprah Winfrey, perhaps?

    Barack Obama had to tread more carefully since he sought cross-tribal appeal e.g. to whites. So his reminiscences about his white grandparents (and to a lessor extent his mother) spoke to millions of Americans (read whites). It resonated.

    His most important appeal to fatalistic African-Americans (many didn’t believe a ‘Black’ man could possibly win) was unspoken and came in the gracious and bootilicious form of Michelle Obama…nuff said!

    Still, at various points during the campaign it was thought that Obama wouldn’t make it. This was especially true when white racial tribalists unleashed Sarah Palin late on in an effort to win over embittered white tribalists female voters who supported Mrs Clinton failed bid for the White House.

    It didn’t succeed. This was in no small measure to Palin’s fellow white tribalists in the liberal mass media who lampooned her at every turn, and night-time comedians who mocked her folksy ignorance (ala Dubya Bush). It was they who ultimately conspired with a pissed off white electoral masses to get Barack elected.

    So I guess in a sense the most unsporting acts of tribalism were subverted and rendered irrelevant by this one momentous, democratic, act; that of a electing a non-white President and consequently making a 1st Lady of a descendant of slaves.

    Only in America, as you guys say!

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  344. King,

    It isn’t a question of living vicariously through others. It is a question of being proud of your relatives (or ashamed, depending). If you had a brother or sister who had done something notable and admirable, would you not be proud of them? And even if you weren’t, most people are cognizant of their relatives achievements/failures. You may not feel like most people, but I don’t think it is reasonable for you to blame humanity for assuming that you have feelings of consanguinity. If you are an exceptional human being and you really don’t care about your family, bully for you (I guess). Perhaps you are better off for it. Only you can answer that question. But family, tribes and races exist by cooperating and looking out for each other, both for good and for ill. This is the nature of humans. And regardless of what you may think, incidents like this:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/25/us/25mobs.html

    will influence how people (both black and white) view you. Just as surely as incidents like this:

    or this

    will influence how the police are perceived, by whites and others.

    You wrote:
    ” If you’re a tribalist, you don’t have to be a racist, but if you’re a racist, you must first begin as a tribalist.”

    I view tribalism and racism as being one and the same. Racism is just tribalism scaled upward.


  345. Menelik Charles,

    I agree with the bulk of your post. I think the bulk of Abagond’s posts miss the essential fact that racism is a naturally occurring phenomenon. Until we all come to grips with this fact, it will be impossible to minimize the impact of racism in ways that are acceptable to most tribes/races.

    You wrote:
    ” Open expressions of our tribalistic natures are often suppressed and/or censored by the PC police that dominate social institutions and social environments. This is not necessarily a bad thing as it runs in opposition to the most blatant and uncivil forms of tribalism responsible for so much grief and unfairness e.g. slavery, apartheid, Hitler, Jim Crow, no_slappz etc.”

    I disagree with the sentiment you are expressing here. Political Correctness really only affects whites. The same prohibitions are not applied to non-whites or non-Christians. This is a major problem. Also, whether we like it or not, some people as a group behave badly. The fact that they are behaving badly must be pointed out to them if they are to change their behavior. Political Correctness inhibits this healthy process of racial/tribal criticism.


  346. menelik charles, you wrote:

    So I guess in a sense the most unsporting acts of tribalism were subverted and rendered irrelevant by this one momentous, democratic, act; that of a electing a non-white President and consequently making a 1st Lady of a descendant of slaves.

    Unfortunately, this “democratic act”, which demonstrated white America’s sense of fair play, has given us a president who is showing many of the stereotypical traits of black leaders.

    As a consequence, a failed presidency is in progress, and it is a presidency that will benefit almost no one as it tediously compromises with or appeases the worst forces in the world.


  347. @ RR

    I don’t understand what you mean when you say, “a naturally occurring phenomenon.” What is the alternative, an artificially occurring phenomenon, or a supernaturally occurring phenomenon?

    Racism is a learned social behavior. No matter what your theory of human origins is, we all agree that humans began as one family, and developed, over time, into one tribe. Racism, and even tribalism was impossible in the earliest epochs of human history. It’s not inevitable, it’s something we learned over time… and so it can be unlearned over time.


  348. It isn’t a question of living vicariously through others. It is a question of being proud of your relatives (or ashamed, depending).

    That doesn’t make a lot of sense. Most people of my race aren’t my relatives (except in the very remote sense in which everyone in the world is my cousin). Many of my relatives aren’t of my race. Race doesn’t have a lot to do with family; it’s an arbitrary social line that gets drawn to throw people into certain categories.


  349. But family, tribes and races exist by cooperating and looking out for each other, both for good and for ill. This is the nature of humans.

    RR: Oh, the irony. Let me repeat — Oh, the irony.


  350. I agre with Lynn RR.

    If I am proud of my family, it is because I’ve grown up with them, and I know them. My pride is based on our having a relationship, not on us being related. I would be more proud of a friend whom I know, than a blood-related stranger.

    If you think that all black people are your family, then, as Lynn points out, why not all of humanity? And if not all of humanity, then why consider your race to be family? It’s all about where you CHOOSE to draw the lines.

    If you look at history, you will find that none of the European tribes thought of one another as family. They were all quite busy hacking each others limbs off, based on tribal rivalries. The same is true in Africa were the standard “family greeting” was to politely run your “brother” through with a spear, if he was wearing the wrong beads around his neck. These people had no concept of these vast colo-based races. They did not see all blacks or whites as one amorphous monolith.

    Free your mind.


  351. King,

    Racism is a naturally occurring phenomenon as opposed to an artificially occurring phenomenon. Some behaviors are learned, but racial differentiation is NOT learned. It has been shown that even infants differentiate on the basis of race. And racial, that is to say familial, favoritism is not something that has to be taught. What has to be taught is the habit of resisting the natural urge to favor one’s own.

    You wrote:

    Racism, and even tribalism was impossible in the earliest epochs of human history.

    This is nonsensical. Of course tribalism/racism existed. What ever happened to those Neanderthals anyway? Would you care to guess (http://www.socialtext.net/wired-mag/index.cgi?what_happened_to_the_neanderthals)?

    You mentioned the relationships you have with your family is what would incline you to feel prideful regarding their accomplishments. What of your ancestors? Are you not proud of the notables among your ancestors even though you may not have met them or knew them very well? Black Americans are proud of people like Harriet Tubman, Jack Johnson, Jackie Robinson and Barack Obama because of their achievements AND their race.

    If you think that all black people are your family, then, as Lynn points out, why not all of humanity?

    Because race is relative. Some groups of people are more related to each other than they are related to other groups of people.

    If you look at history, you will find that none of the European tribes thought of one another as family.

    No, they thought of themselves as races. Again, family, tribe, race are relative gauges. It is the degree of relatedness that matters.

    They did not see all blacks or whites as one amorphous monolith.

    They didn’t have to view blacks or whites as monoliths. They just needed to note the differences between groups of people, which they did. Race is a continuum. The boundaries are fuzzy, but races clearly exist and people act on these racial realities.


  352. Lynn-Gazis-Sax,

    Recall Steve Sailer’s definition of race: A race is a very large extended family that inbreeds to some degree. Granted, human beings are all related, but some of us are more related than others. You are more related to people of your race (I assume you are Caucasian) than I am as a black American. Family is relative, thus race is relative, as Sailer is fond of saying.

    You wrote:

    ”Many of my relatives aren’t of my race.”

    Ok. But they are partly of your race. Your closest relatives have the strongest genetic ties to you. Family is relative, thus race is relative.


  353. RR, your tremorous grasp of logic sorely disappoints me. Where on earth is your deductive reasoning?

    If humankind can be traced to a single ancestor, then there once was a time when there was only ONE race/ethnicity. How on earth could there have been racism at that point? Are you quite mad?

    If there was a single human ancestor, (or pair) then it would have taken many generations before humankind was able to reach any appreciable level of phenotypical variance. At some point, we all looked the same, we all shared the same culture. You may cross check that fact with any source that you care to.

    As for ancestors… I suppose you mean recent ancestors, because if we reach back far enough, the pool gets smaller and smaller until we discover that we are all climbing in the same family tree (to mix metaphors). But to be honest, I don’t have much of a connection to my ancestors beyond my Grandparents. I imagine that’s true of most people. I know a little about a few of them, but it’s not a big deal.

    Black people may be proud of Harriet Tubman, Jack Johnson, Jackie Robinson, and Barack Obama, etc. and there is often a perceived racial component involved. But Chinese-Americans are also proud of Harriet Tubman, Jack Johnson, Jackie Robinson, and Barack Obama, because they were/are exceptional Americans, and exceptional human beings. So who’s pride is more real? The color doesn’t matter does it? Does it??

    Because race is relative. Some groups of people are more related to each other than they are related to other groups of people.

    So what?

    Many people hate family members and cherish their completely unrelated friends.

    Race is just an idea, it’s a categorization tool, it’s ultimately undefinable. Only persons with a distinctly unsophisticated view of the world talk about race as if were anything more than that.


  354. King,

    There is a little known theory called Evolution. Perhaps you have heard of it. In this theory, a given species, humans in this case, selects for the most viable traits for a given environment. Being that early humans were not limited to a specific region, they evolved different traits over time. And humans evolved differently, thus producing the various ethnic and racial groups we see today.

    If there was a single human ancestor, (or pair) then it would have taken many generations before humankind was able to reach any appreciable level of phenotypical variance.

    Are you a Biblical fundamentalist? What makes you think humans evolved from a single pair of humans? It is you who is not making sense here.

    But to be honest, I don’t have much of a connection to my ancestors beyond my Grandparents. I imagine that’s true of most people.

    Speak for yourself. Again, you are being quite presumptuous. You are assuming that your experience is universal, when in reality, your experience is unique. There is a reason that services like Ancestry. com are money makers. People (not you obviously) have a habit of being very interested in who their relatives are/were.

    But Chinese-Americans are also proud of Harriet Tubman, Jack Johnson, Jackie Robinson, and Barack Obama, because they were/are exceptional Americans, and exceptional human beings.

    This is totally and utterly ridiculous! How close an emotional connection Chinese Americans have to America to begin with is highly debatable. Being that the Chinese are generally contemptuous of non-Chinese, especially blacks, your statement flies in the face of racial reality.


  355. King wrote:

    Only persons with a distinctly unsophisticated view of the world talk about race as if were anything more than that.

    Only those with a completely naive and unrealistic view of the world would believe that most people are unconcerned about their family/ethnic/racial group members. The history of the world belies your assertion. In many parts of the world, familial relationships are THE most important types of relationships and have been for millennia. Just look at Iraq, where most people marry their relatives.


  356. A mitochondrial Eve and a Y-chromosomal Adam have been found. Naturally they both lived much longer ago than the Biblical fundamentalist version of Adam and Eve, and in fact, due to greater variability in male fecundity than female fecundity, they lived thousands of years apart. Both of them lived in Africa, unsurprisingly.

    Y-chromosomal Adam probably lived 90,000 and 60,000 years ago in Africa, so we all had a common ancestor in around that time frame, FWIW (which is actually a pretty short time frame in evolutionary terms).

    “Race” is a common way of dividing people now, but it hasn’t always provided the categories into which people divided. In the Ottoman Empire, the different millets were distinguished by religion rather than “race” (and, as a result, Greeks and Turks actually have about the same proportion of European/Asian/African ancestry, not having any One Drop rules to keep them in distinct slots). In ancient Greece, it was language, the difference between Greeks and non-Greek speaking “barbarians,” that mattered. Racism/tribalism is innate only in the sense that it builds on a certain built in human tendency toward hierarchy.


  357. I’m white, and have not partaken in any conversations about ‘black rape statistics’, you have to be fueled by a lot of hate to be spreading it. Doesn’t anyone watch Dateline? How many times has Chris Hansen told a brother, to “take a seat”? I’ve even seen a rabbi caught on that show.


  358. I always found it amusing the looks on their faces when these scumbags were caught.


  359. I meant to add…priceless.


  360. How can a man, I use the term loosely, even think of doing that to a boy probably close to his kid’s age? Ugh, that’s just sick.


  361. RR,

    You are assuming that your experience is universal, when in reality, your experience is unique.

    You didn’t really just type that with a straight face did you?


  362. Lynn Gazis-Stax,

    You wrote:

    A mitochondrial Eve and a Y-chromosomal Adam have been found.

    This does NOT mean that the bodies from which these DNA samples were retrieved were the SINGLE pair from which modern humans were descended, as King said. There were other early humans around at the time with which these humans mated. King’s argument is Biblical.

    Racism/tribalism is innate only in the sense that it builds on a certain built in human tendency toward hierarchy.

    I agree with this statement, mostly. I would add that racial taxonomy is a product of human rationality. Racial classification is an outgrowth of our attempt at better understanding our world. It isn’t any different than other systems of classification.

    We are a highly social and hierarchical species. We group ourselves largely in relation to our lineages. Our tendency toward hierarchy and tribalism is innate. We have to be trained not to indulge our baser instincts.

    Jasmin,

    Yes, I said that with a straight face. Many people believe their experiences are universal. It is a very limited and naive view.


  363. RR,

    You do realize you are talking about yourself right? Well, yourself and all of your rap-music listening friends. Ha, you crack me up. Thanks!


  364. Jasmin,

    I’m not quite sure what you mean. In some respects, my views are non-mainstream for a black American. In other respects, they are quite common. Certainly regarding racial kinship, I am in the majority.


  365. I love to catch a predator it is so funny. The most funniest on is where they caught a guy had him on the floor and he was like “I didn’t do anything YET” meaning that he was going to do something. They need to bring that show back people were complaining after that guy shot himself and the show was taking things to far.
    They are kiddie fiddlers, peadophiles better to be safe than sorry, they came to the house with condoms and beer and said nasty things.


  366. RR (sigh) Geez, what a maroon…

    There clearly would have to have been a singular point when Homo Sapien Sapiens had:
    1) branched distinctly away from other bipedal hominids; 2) displaced all other niche-competitive species;
    3) became the dominant primate species in the evolutionary ladder.

    Your rather poorly thought out idea that somehow evolutionary competitive or progenitive species displacement was some kind of primitive “ethnic cleansing” or or intra-primate “racism” only goes to shows the appalling extent of your complete miseducation and misunderstanding of the subject. Other primates, no matter how promising, were not “human” and were not the same species. Racism occurs between human beings. That’s why we don’t say that keeping monkeys in a zoo is “racism.” Or do you?

    At the point when Homo Sapiens evolved and became a distinct and ascendant primate species, the distinction would have to have begun with a set of random genetic mutations (according to all evolutionary theory). Such mutations would not, and could not have occurred simultaneously in an entire group of hominids. (This isn’t the X-Men comics) The mutation would have occurred in the DNA codex, of a single hominid, in order for it to have been a genetically transferrable trait to offspring. The mutated trait(s) would also have to be genetically dominant traits. Therefore, it would be a biological necessity to begin with a single mating pair, an “Adam” and “Eve” in order to sire the evolved genetics of the Homo Sapiens species.

    Homo Sapiens, at this point, were brothers, sisters, cousins, and second cousins. They all looked alike, they all shared the same “culture” they were the same people. They did not force Neanderthals to ride on the back of the Mammoth, they did not post signs that read, “No Neanderthals allowed.” Any displacement of competitive or progenitive species was NOT RACISM or anything like it! Who have you read who has called this kind of evolutionary extinction a process of racism? I’d be quite interested to know. Did you make this up yourself?


  367. “This is totally and utterly ridiculous! How close an emotional connection Chinese Americans have to America to begin with is highly debatable. Being that the Chinese are generally contemptuous of non-Chinese, especially blacks, your statement flies in the face of racial reality.”

    Um… It’s debatable that Chinese-AMERICANS have a close connection to AMERICA?

    “Being that the Chinese are generally contemptuous of non-Chinese”

    Careful RR, or you may begin to sound like an ignorant racist.


  368. With regard to:

    Careful RR, or you may begin to sound like an ignorant racist.

    I have to say I admire your ‘fortitude’ King, and hence perhaps teh name ha ha ha…

    However with:

    Black being less intelligent than the White race
    Blacks are more violent than Whites
    Blacks commit more rape than Whites
    Black females vis-a-vis othe races (ethnic groups) are the only one to continuously talk about rape in slavery to bash Black males
    Too much immigration in the U.S is creating ‘decadency’

    and now

    Chinese-Americans may NOT have a close connection to Americans presumably as say ‘Whites – its just a guess on my part

    Hmmm!!!


  369. on Sun 18 Apr 2010 at 22:29:58 Menelik Charles

    Menelik said:

    So I guess in a sense the most unsporting acts of tribalism were subverted and rendered irrelevant by this one momentous, democratic, act; that of a electing a non-white President and consequently making a 1st Lady of a descendant of slaves.

    no_slappz replied:

    Unfortunately, this “democratic act”, which demonstrated white America’s sense of fair play, has given us a president who is showing many of the stereotypical traits of black leaders.

    As a consequence, a failed presidency is in progress, and it is a presidency that will benefit almost no one as it tediously compromises with or appeases the worst forces in the world.

    Menelik replied:

    you know, you really have to make up your mind, bro. Either Black men are predators or appeasing pussies; which is it because your logic determines that it can’t be both?

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  370. on Sun 18 Apr 2010 at 23:11:51 Menelik Charles

    RR said:

    How close an emotional connection Chinese Americans have to America to begin with is highly debatable. Being that the Chinese are generally contemptuous of non-Chinese, especially blacks, your statement flies in the face of racial reality.

    King replied:

    Um… It’s debatable that Chinese-AMERICANS have a close connection to AMERICA?

    Menelik replied:

    I agree with RR here – for is it not also “debatable” whether European-Americans have a “close” i.e. positive connection to African-Americans, and vice versa?

    Sharing a nationality (in this case a US one) is not the same as sharing a race, is it? Look how delighted Chinese-Americans were when Beijing got to host the Olympics? And How did continental Africans react when Barack & Michelle entered the White House as President and 1st lady?

    race trumps nationality every day of the week, and not necessarily for negative reasons, either!

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  371. Chinese-Americans would be those who are off Chinese descent born in America. Hence teh appellation ‘Chinese
    and America’

    Now if this statement:

    “It’s debatable that Chinese-AMERICANS have a close connection to AMERICA?”

    Then it surely must mean that Chinese-American are presumably a threat to American society.

    Perhaps its a re-visit to the 1930s with the ‘Yellow Peril’ by some


  372. on Sun 18 Apr 2010 at 23:27:19 Menelik Charles

    King said:

    Black people may be proud of Harriet Tubman, Jack Johnson, Jackie Robinson, and Barack Obama, etc. and there is often a PERCEIVED racial component involved.

    Menelik replied:

    there is an ACTUAL racial component involved!

    King said:

    But Chinese-Americans are also proud of Harriet Tubman, Jack Johnson, Jackie Robinson, and Barack Obama, because they were/are exceptional Americans, and exceptional human beings.

    Menelik asks:

    Chinese-Americans are proud of African-American heroes and heroines? Who told you this?

    King said:

    So who’s pride is more real? The color doesn’t matter does it? Does it?

    Menelik says:

    let’s assume, I don’t know the answer so I’ll ask you this: do Asian-Americans have a stake in the success of Tiger Woods (despite them seeing his mother as soiled goods)?

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  373. RR,

    I mean that you stereotyped Chinese-Americans (among other groups, that’s just the most recent) and then typed with a straight face that some people think their experience is universal, and that’s naive. Hello Mr. Pot, meet Mrs. Kettle.


  374. Abagond,

    Will you write a post on stereotype theories (formation, maintenance, etc.)? I think most people just don’t understand how they work, hence this thread. (Hint: It’s the opposite of what the “layman’s view” would have you think.)


  375. @ Menelik Charles

    “race trumps nationality every day of the week, and not necessarily for negative reasons, either!”

    But should it? I think it unfortunate that Americans put race before pretty much every other consideration and that national identity only becomes important in the run up to wars. The French go overboard with their republican ideology in, say, not collecting data on racial inequality. However, I agree with their stance that citizenship should be given more weight than racial group membership.


  376. on Mon 19 Apr 2010 at 01:22:26 Menelik Charles

    SAID:

    race trumps nationality every day of the week, and not necessarily for negative reasons, either!

    FG replied:

    But should it? The French go overboard with their republican ideology in, say, not collecting data on racial inequality. However, I agree with their stance that citizenship should be given more weight than racial group membership.

    Menelik replies:

    there is nothing wrong with being proud of one’s race, so race isn’t necessarily a negative concept as I suggest. racial chauvinism, is however, a problem which is precisely why the French refuse to collect data on racial inequality!

    Moreover, their emphasis on citizenship functions as both a cover for widespread racial discrimination and a denial of its existence…so no, I don’t agree with this stance!

    I agree with St Patrick’s Day, Black History Month etc because I believe fundamentally in the uniqueness of all races, and in their inherent potential to understand one another and live harmoniously as one.

    Put another way, my heart is Martin Luther King but my penis is Louis Farrakhan…a bit like MLK penis, come to think of it lol

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  377. Charles, perhaps I could have been more precise and said that “SOME” Chinese-Americans are proud of Harriet Tubman, Jack Johnson, Jackie Robinson, and Barack Obama.

    After all, even ALL Blacks are not proud of the afore-mentioned pantheon above. But I can say, that many among the Asian-American activist community truly respect and are proud of African-American activists who are seen as pioneers and role models for their own cause.

    But questioning the connection between Chinese-Americans and America, is over the line. What is this based on, a bad experience in Chinatown restaurant? Please.


  378. “I agree with St Patrick’s Day, Black History Month etc because I believe fundamentally in the uniqueness of all races, and in their inherent potential to understand one another and live harmoniously as one.”

    Not every culture upholds this notion of a social order based on discrete racial groups with special characteristics that serve as a source of esteem for their members. Latin American and Islamic societies tend not to. I myself prefer less divisive forms of social organization.


  379. I think that we have all been programmed way to much in the concept of race. None of it has any use to real people. I hope we evolve to a level where we no longer see race. It is a misperception. We are one Species. Social Engineers have reprogrammed us to not pay attention to this needed fact. Therefore we continue to observe race and miss the mark everytime. Please try to remember that we are one Species a far more superior level than race. “As a man or woman thinketh, so they are.”


  380. on Mon 19 Apr 2010 at 03:59:04 Menelik Charles

    FG said:

    Not every culture upholds this notion of a social order based on discrete racial groups with special characteristics that serve as a source of esteem for their members. Latin American and Islamic societies tend not to. I myself prefer less divisive forms of social organization.

    Menelik replied:

    not all cultures/races were subject to the types of oppression and marginalization as were African-Americans and Irish people. Some, like Brasil, have far more integrated or inclusive societies hence annual the multi-racial Brazilian carnival.

    As regards Islamic societies, well, I’m not sure where they fit into your argument but I think you’ll find that Muslims are becoming increasingly radicalised, and thus are seeking to redeem their collective self-esteem by opposing what they perceive as a white western religious crusade against them. I believe such people are known as “terrorists”, yes?

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  381. “I think that we have all been programmed way to much in the concept of race. None of it has any use to real people. I hope we evolve to a level where we no longer see race”

    I have no problem with seeing race, just so long as we drop the divisive tribalistic aspects of race theory. Isn’t it time we stop looking so hard at our differences and begin to consider also how much alike we all are?


  382. Perhaps Jasmin was right about the need for a post on stereotype/attitude formation – which in fact is a very interesting and eye-opening subject.

    First it was Chinese-Americans being un-American (presumably over the way they prepare the food in the restaurant I guess – ha ha ha) and now we have
    moved on to Muslims=Terrorists

    “Muslims are becoming increasingly radicalised, and thus are seeking to redeem their collective self-esteem by opposing what they perceive as a white western religious crusade against them. I believe such people are known as “terrorists”

    Hmmm!!


  383. I think Jasmin is right.


  384. on Mon 19 Apr 2010 at 15:34:20 Menelik Charles

    King said:

    Menelik, perhaps I could have been more precise and said that “SOME” Chinese-Americans are proud of Harriet Tubman, Jack Johnson, Jackie Robinson, and Barack Obama.

    Menelik replied:

    Perhaps you could have been more precise still and said that a statistically insignifcant miniscule minority of Chinese-Americans are proud of Harriet Tubman, Jack Johnson, Jackie Robinson, and Barack Obama, and left it there!

    Chinese or Asian-Americans are most likely to be proud of the likes of Jackie Chan because they have a racial affinity with him. African-Americans, by contrast, are merely likely to be fans since they have no racial stake in his mainstream acceptance and success.

    They do, however, have a racial affinity with Chris Rock, and thus are proud of his mainstream success. Chinese-Americans, at most, are but fans of Mr Rock.

    Either way, race trumps nationality as a source of pride and hightened self-esteem all day long. What is the point of arguing otherwise?

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  385. “Perhaps you could have been more precise still and said that a statistically insignificant miniscule minority of Chinese-Americans are proud of Harriet Tubman, Jack Johnson, Jackie Robinson, and Barack Obama, and left it there!

    Excellent. Then since your talking about statistical minorities, than please provide a link to where you’ve gotten this statistical information.

    You’re talking about a reasonably large population of people when speaking about the Chinese-Americans. You’ve stated that a statistically insignificant minority show pride or support for Black-American activist pioneers.

    So… how many Chines-Americans do you know? How much time do you spend in the Chinese-American community? How many of the Chinese-Americans, whom you know, have you surveyed on this particular issue? How many Chinese-Americans are there in the USA? (total population figures)

    I’m going to just assume, at this point, that whatever your answers to the above questions, that you don’t know, or have contact with, nearly enough Chinese-Americans to render a decision based on your own personal experiences. Therefore, I presume that your comments are based on a study or survey—ere else, how could you have come to such a conclusion about such a large population?

    I’d just be interested in seeing the study, if you please.


  386. on Mon 19 Apr 2010 at 19:55:35 Menelik Charles

    Menelik said:

    Perhaps you could have been more precise still and said that a statistically insignificant miniscule minority of Chinese-Americans are proud of Harriet Tubman, Jack Johnson, Jackie Robinson, and Barack Obama, and left it there!

    King said:

    Excellent. Then since your talking about statistical minorities, than please provide a link to where you’ve gotten this statistical information.

    I presume that your comments are based on a study or survey—ere else, how could you have come to such a conclusion about such a large population?

    Menelik replies:

    I have come to no such statistical conclusion at all! I have made an assumption which I’m certainly willing to bet my pension on is absolutely true! And not least because (and you don’t appear to want to accept this) race trumps nationality forever and a day!

    Thus, Chinese-Americans are FANS of Chris Rock – not because of his achievements but because he is ‘out there’, but they have a racial and socio-cultural attachment to Jackie Chan and are, therefore, proud of his success.

    Blacks were great fans of Bruce Lee but would you translate this into their being proud of his success? Would you? Would you not hypothesise that a statistically insignificant number of African-Americans were proud of Mr Lee’s global success?

    For heaven’s sake, get real, man! Black History Month does not incorporate the achievements of Asian-Americans and Chinese New Year celebrations makes no reference to the year of the Snoop Doggy Dog! Either way, I don’t see a problem.

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  387. Well Menelik, if it’s just your assumption, then I’d caution you on expressing it without qualifiers.

    If I say that “People love ice cream” I’d think that would be a fairly broad statement, but also a fairly safe one. Now, in reality, most of the global population has probably never tasted ice cream… but I’d think that most of those who haven’t are not going to take offense at it.

    But if I say, “Black people love chicken” it gets a little more problematic. Someone’s bound to ask, “Who made you the expert on what Black people like?” Although it’s still a fairly innocuous statement.

    But if you say, “Black people hate Mexicans” then you’d better have something more concrete than your opinion for it.

    NOW about pride. There are non-black Americans who are proud of Martin Luther King Jr., as a fellow American. There are also other minorities, who are proud of Martin Luther King Jr. as a fellow minority leader. There are non-black Christians who are proud of Martin Luther King Jr. as a fellow Christian.

    Your assumption is that people of the same race are the only ones who can be proud of a black person. That opinion is short-sighted. A black person can be many things beyond being just black. There are other affiliations that may bring pride to those who share them.

    I am proud of certain friends of mine. They are not black, so does that reduce me to a FAN, who cannot feel genuine pride in their accomplishments, simply because we don’t share the same skin color?

    The Chinese-American activists that I know feel proud that non-white, American minorities stood up to the system and made a difference. They are proud, as minorities, and as activists, for what was achieved.


  388. on Mon 19 Apr 2010 at 22:38:01 Menelik Charles

    King said:

    ALL Blacks are not proud of the afore-mentioned pantheon above. But I can say, that many among the Asian-American activist community truly respect and are proud of African-American activists who are seen as pioneers and role models for their own cause.

    Menelik replies:

    Bro, you really do appear to be confusing the term pride with ADMIRATION! Consider the following: my son does well at school, your son does equally well at school; I’m proud of my son’s efforts because he’s my son. However, I admire you son’s success because I want our people to being doing well.

    Have I made this distinction clear?

    Perhaps not, so here’s another example: I am a huge admirer of Sigmund Freud. I have his collected works; I’ve studied psychoanalysis at university; and I’ve a huge framed picture of the ‘master’ on my living room wall.

    I have also attended many gathering discussing the work of Freud and typically, I am the only black person present. Most of those present are Jews…gathered together to discuss one of their own.

    How proud they must have felt. Me? I’m just an admirer, an avid one it has to be said, but an admirer all the same.

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  389. King,

    There are a number of falsities in your last post to me. You stated:

    ” There clearly would have to have been a singular point when Homo Sapiens had:

    1) branched distinctly away from other obipedal hominids”

    There was no branching away from other hominids because the Neanderthals were not ancestors to Homo Sapiens. Your remark is tantamount to saying that whites branched away from blacks. They were a distinct group unto themselves and co-existed, for a time, with Cro-Magnons (ancestors to Homo Sapiens). There is even evidence that they interbred. See htt://anthro.palomar.edu/homo2/mod_homo2.htm
    Here are a couple of choice lines from the article:

    Based on this information, Svante Paabo of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Germany concludes that the Neandertal and modern human genomes share 99.5-99.9% of their base unit sequences. He estimates that the Neandertal line began to diverge from ours by about 800,000 years ago and that we were “genetically distinct” by 300,000 years ago. He also suggests that there was only minimal interbreeding if any between these two lines of humans after they came into contact in Europe beginning around 40,000 years ago. This DNA evidence supports the contention that Neandertals were not a subspecies or variety of our species and that they were not our ancestors.

    “Your rather poorly thought out idea that somehow evolutionary competitive or progentive species displacement was some kind of primative “ethnic cleansing” or or intra-primate “racism” only goes to show the appalling extent of your complete miseducation and misunderstanding of the subject.”

    I think it is important to focus on facts, rather than invective. The idea that early humans committed genocide against the Neanderthals is not mine, which you would have known if you had bothered to research my statement (or if you even bothered to read the article I cited previously). See http://www.aaas.org/spp/dser/02_Events/Lectures/02_Lecture_2002_1010summary.pdf

    Here is a choice quote:

    What occurred after Cro-Magnons moved into Neanderthal territory to cause the latter group to die out? Two theories predominate, said Tattersall. The first is that the Neanderthals were absorbed into the invading population by interbreeding. However, the genetic evidence does not seem to support this view.

    The second theory is that the Neanderthals lost out in competition: direct and violent competition, indirect economic competition, or both.

    Such mutations would not and could not have occurred simultaneously in an entire group of hominids

    It depends on your definition of “simultaneously”. From an evolutionary perspective, such a mutation could have occurred in 10000 years. Even that would not have been required. The only selection pressure would have been through differing environments of early humans. And the environments of early humans were varied, thus leading to genetic differences between early tribes/races of humans.

    Therefore, it would be a biological necessity to begin with a single mating pair, an “Adam” and “Eve” in order to sire the evolved genetics of the Homo Sapiens species

    Now that’s bizarre! What of the problem of interbreeding? How would have Homo Sapiens survived if there really was a single family from which the species descended? Let’s look at this from a modern perspective. Let’s assume for the sake of argument that your Adam and Eve mated and had children. Their children would have then mated with each other. Their grandchildren would have mated with other descendents of Adam and Eve, etc. From what we know of biology, Homo Sapiens could not have possibly grown and thrived due to inbreeding depression. So please, explain how we got around this problem, if you can.

    Any displacement of competitive or progentive species was NOT RACISM or anything like it!

    How can you be so dogmatic here? How do you know? You haven’t even researched the possibility yet. There is some evidence that the Cro-Magnons wiped out the Neanderthals. Assuming this actually happened, it seems to me that racism would have been a factor. Here are some more references to the theory that humans wiped out the Neanderthals:

    http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1912195,00.html

    This is my kind of quote:

    “Neanderthals met a violent end at our hands, and in some cases we ate them,” Rozzi said at the time of the discovery.

    http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=43002649

    I hope that I have convinced you that this is not my theory or that it is some crack-pot racist theory. A number of mainstream scientists support this idea. Now, I’m not asserting that humans did kill off the Neanderthals, but given that racism is part of human nature, I wouldn’t be too surprised.

    Careful RR, or you may begin to sound like an ignorant racist.

    Well, I certainly wouldn’t want to sound like those guys, but sometimes, those guys are right. With respect to Chinese-American attachment to the US, I remain dubious of the most recent immigrants. Too many of them have come here in too short a time frame for their attachment to be solid. It seems to me that very few of the more recent Chinese immigrants would be willing to lay down their lives for this country, especially if we went to war with China. I can hear you say, “Well RR, what of the Japanese. The Japanese population during WWII was very loyal but, due to racist sentiment like yours, they were interned during the war. That was racist and mean.” Well I would say that, although herding Japanese-Americans into internment camps during the war was racist and mean, it was not irrational being that there was substantial evidence that many Japanese were in fact, spying for Japan. “But”, you would say, “German-Americans were not interned!”. My response would be, “Exactly!” I would be of the same opinion (weak attachment to the US) regarding Italians, the Irish and the Jews if there hadn’t been an immigration moratorium enacted in 1924 that severely limited immigration to this country for 41 years.

    But I can say, that many among the Asian-American activist community truly respect and are proud of African-American activists who are seen as pioneers and role models for their own cause.

    This is a hoot! Asian-American activist community?!! Very few Asian Americans are community activists (to their great credit). Asians are famously non-activist. And it scares me to think that some of them would like to have their own Al Sharpton. Perish the thought!

    I have no problem with seeing race, just so long as we drop the divisive tribalistic aspects of race theory.

    I think you do have a problem with race, because seeing race means seeing racial differences. And racial differences lead to unequal outcomes and the formation of stereotypes. What I think you would like to say is that you wish that races were the same in terms of levels of achievement. That way, one could argue that race was skin deep. Unfortunately, race is more than skin deep.


  390. Menelik Charles wrote:

    I agree with RR here – for is it not also “debatable” whether European-Americans have a “close” i.e. positive connection to African-Americans, and vice versa?

    This is an interesting point. Extending the notion of race affinity, it seems to me that American Negroes would probably be significantly less loyal, on average, to the US than a WASP would be. America is, after all, a white nation that WASPs built for the most part. Hmmm. I’ll have to get back to you on that.

    race trumps nationality every day of the week, and not necessarily for negative reasons, either!

    Yup! Except when race and nationality are one and the same, like in China.

    Some, like Brasil, have far more integrated or inclusive societies hence annual the multi-racial Brazilian carnival.

    I don’t think Carnival is a good example of racial inclusion. The Portuguese still posses the bulk of the wealth in Brazil.

    Perhaps you could have been more precise still and said that a statistically insignifcant miniscule minority of Chinese-Americans are proud of Harriet Tubman, Jack Johnson, Jackie Robinson, and Barack Obama, and left it there!

    You are cracking me up! I couldn’t have said it better myself. What reason would a Chinese-American have to be proud of Jackie Robinson? A Chinese-American might admire Jackie Robinson’s achievements, but where does pride come in to it? A Chinese-American might be happy that he lives in a country that strives to confront racial injustice, but then again, this might lead said Chinese-American to wonder why so many NAMs (non-Asian minorities) are given Affirmative Action when he so badly wanted to go to UC Berkeley, but couldn’t because there exists a de facto quota on Asians at Berkeley. Said Chinese-American might get angry. He might stop admiring black heroes and, perhaps, start resenting them, especially if Negroes continue to steal from his father’s grocery store.


  391. Jasmin wrote:

    I mean that you stereotyped Chinese-Americans (among other groups, that’s just the most recent) and then typed with a straight face that some people think their experience is universal, and that’s naive.

    I think you misunderstood me. A person can believe certain stereotypes without believing that his personal experiences are universal. In fact, a person can believe certain stereotypes despite personal experiences to the contrary.


  392. If you use your stereotypical beliefs to argue a point, that seems to suggest you think they are universal. Otherwise, wouldn’t you start your statements with, “I’m about to say something stereotypical and unfounded, y’all…”?


  393. @ Menelik

    “Bro, you really do appear to be confusing the term pride with ADMIRATION! Consider the following: my son does well at school, your son does equally well at school; I’m proud of my son’s efforts because he’s my son. However, I admire you son’s success because I want our people to being doing well.

    Have I made this distinction clear?”

    Yes, clear as mud. Evidently, no black people were proud of the Apollo moon landing, because (although they were Americans) none of the astronauts were black.

    Therefore. black people could only ADMIRE it, because the only shared categorization in the world is skin color. I see it perfectly now.

    Let me say, yet again, that people can be proud based on more than shared skin color. They can be proud based on a shared nationality. They can be proud based on a shared religious faith. They can be proud because they went to the same high school, or grew up in the same neighborhood, or served in the same military unit.

    People can be proud of people who they feel that they claim a commonality or identity with them, but color is not the only basis for shared identification. People are proud of their sports teams, or Olympic teams, who represent their cities or countries.

    Your idea that only people of the same color can be proud of people of the same color, is simply wrong. You can continue to argue otherwise, but not convincingly.


  394. RR, it is simply going to be too painful to try and correct all of your misunderstandings of anthropology. I’m just not willing to go another 300 posts loaded with links to the fate of the Neanderthals. (yawn)

    Suffice to say this: My post was not even arguing about what you think happened to the Neanderthals. My point was that it was not Racism/ There can be no RACISM between different species. That much should be obvious.

    Otherwise, we would call crocodiles racist when they attack wilder beasts, or lions when they attack gazelles. If Homo Sapiens single-handedly wiped out the Neanderthals (highly doubtful) then it was not an act or racism, but a case of one species driving another species into extinction. That’s not racism, it has happened millions of times as a process of evolution. NOBODY in the scientific community has ever called this racism, as far as I know. Do you?


  395. on Tue 20 Apr 2010 at 19:00:52 Menelik Charles

    Menelik said:

    Bro, you really do appear to be confusing the term pride with ADMIRATION! Consider the following: my son does well at school, your son does equally well at school; I’m proud of my son’s efforts because he’s my son. However, I admire you son’s success because I want our people to being doing well.

    Have I made this distinction clear?

    King said:

    Yes, clear as mud. Evidently, no black people were proud of the Apollo moon landing, because (although they were Americans) none of the astronauts were black.

    Menelik replies:

    I’m sure most African-Americans were as excited and wide-eyed as the rest of America at this feat (I know my London-based Caribbean parents were). But to suggest they felt the same way about this momentous event as European-Americans is nonsense!

    How African-Americans felt about White America’s excursion to the moon was tempered by two simple factors; 1) their collective inferior citizenship status in what they described as “white America” and 2) whether or not one of our people were aboard the space craft.

    king said:

    Therefore. Black people could only ADMIRE it, because the only shared categorization in the world is skin color. I see it perfectly now.

    Menelik replies:

    I never came close to suggesting such a thing since it is demonstrable nonsense!

    People can share a nationality but what use was that to the former Cassius Clay coming back from the Rome Olympics and unable get a meal at a restaurant because of the colour of his skin (clearly “white America” was proud of their “native son”); or to Africans down South denied the vote by white Americans because of the colour of their skin?

    King said:

    People can be proud of people who they feel that they claim a commonality or identity with them, but color is not the only basis for shared identification. People are proud of their sports teams, or Olympic teams, who represent their cities or countries.

    Menelik replies:

    now we’re talking…about DEGREES of pride. I’m proud of my home-town soccer team, Arsenal, when they do well. I have supported them since I was eleven. They were an all-white team back then. Now they’re dominated by Black men (as are most of the top soccer teams in England) and so there success means significantly more to me than it did way back then.

    I guess it’s the same for white Americans when the white Belgian, Justine Henin knocks the stuffing out of the Williams sisters on the tennis court, no? Why is race trumping nationality here, King?

    King said:

    Your idea that only people of the same color can be proud of people of the same color, is simply wrong.

    Menelik replies:

    it is not my idea. And since we’re entertaining the notion of degrees of pride I put it to you that African-Americans felt a great deal more pride in Barack Obama’s success than white Americans. Would you seriously doubt this?

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  396. Menelik… how on earth are you going to measure these “degrees of pride?” I mean, some Black people don’t feel very much pride about Barrak Obama at all (like Republicans).

    There is no way to measure pride—it’s an emotion, and every person feels it differently, based on their own capacity, aptitude, and experience.

    A White person, or a Chinese person, or a Latino person, can feel pride in a Black person. A Black person can feel pride in a White person. It all depends on their connection.

    Does a Black Republican feel more pride in Barrack Obama than a Latino Democrat? There’s simply no way to measure that! Best to just say that pride can be felt and expressed across color lines, and leave it at that.


  397. on Tue 20 Apr 2010 at 21:20:21 Menelik Charles

    Menelik said:

    it is not my idea. And since we’re entertaining the notion of degrees of pride I put it to you that African-Americans felt a great deal more pride in Barack Obama’s success than white Americans. Would you seriously doubt this?

    King replied:

    how on earth are you going to measure these “degrees of pride?” I mean, some Black people don’t feel very much pride about Barrak Obama at all (like Republicans).

    Menelik replied:

    I think the question is ridiculous especially since you’re already assuming Black Republicans feel LESS degrees of pride towards Obama than, say, Black Democrats!

    Moreover, any student of the various psychologies (especially the medical model) will tell you that emotions can, and are, measured all the time. The frequent measurement of self-esteem is as good example of any attempted measurement of emotions…just like brain waves, in fact

    failing that you can always make assumptions of degrees of pride as you do below.

    King said:

    People can be proud of people who they feel that they claim a commonality or identity with them, but color is not the only basis for shared identification. People are proud of their sports teams, or Olympic teams, who represent their cities or countries.

    Menelik replies:

    you see, degrees of pride says everything here. To what extent do you feel or believe African-Americans feel proud of Serena & Venus Williams in comparison to Tiger Woods? With whom do they most have in common and share an identity?

    You talked about the “claim of commonality or identity! so let’s see how it works between African-Americans, the Williams sisters and Tiger Woods!

    King said:

    A White person, or a Chinese person, or a Latino person, can feel pride in a Black person. A Black person can feel pride in a White person. It all depends on their connection.

    Menelik replies:

    you surely cannot have it both ways, bro! First you dismiss pride as a mere emotion, and suggest, by you’re very question, that it’s impossible to measure, and now you boldly assert that a that a Chinese or Latino individual (is that an Afro or Euro-Latino?) can feel as much pride in a Black person’s achievements as a fellow black.

    Well, as it happens, I agree with this last part but I figure the number who do would be statistically insignificant i.e. nowhere near double digits!

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  398. I asked you how you were going to measure this pride, I didn’t say that there is no different in how much or little that people feel pride. It’s just complicated.

    Anyone can sit down and fill out, on a scale of levels 1 – 10, how much pride that they feel, if the questions are phrased that way. Does that really mean that you’re measuring pride? NO it doesn’t. Because, how do you know that my level 5 and your level 5 are equivalent? You don’t, do you?

    You’re asking people to weigh, each with their own private and personal scales, and all come up with the same standard weight at the end of the process. It doesn’t work that way. Every mind is different, every body is different, so if you think that you just connect some wires to someone’s finger tips and get a reading of how proud they are, you’re dreaming.

    There is no scientific way that you can measure pride from person to person. There is no scientific way that you can measure love from person to person. Nice try,but it doesn’t work that way.

    “you surely cannot have it both ways, bro! First you dismiss pride as a mere emotion, and suggest, by you’re very question, that it’s impossible to measure, and now you boldly assert that a that a Chinese or Latino individual (is that an Afro or Euro-Latino?) can feel as much pride in a Black person’s achievements as a fellow black.

    Actually I didn’t say that… but at this point, we’re SO far off the original topic, that I’m sure that Abagond will soon shut down the thread!


  399. on Tue 20 Apr 2010 at 23:30:12 Menelik Charles

    King said:

    1) perhaps I could have been more precise and said that “SOME” Chinese-Americans are proud of Harriet Tubman, Jack Johnson, Jackie Robinson, and Barack Obama.

    2) there is NO scientific way that you can measure pride from person to person. There is no scientific way that you can measure love from person to person. Nice try,but it doesn’t work that way.

    3) anyone can sit down and fill out, on a scale of levels 1 – 10, how much pride that they feel, if the questions are phrased that way. Does that really mean that you’re measuring pride? NO it doesn’t. Because, how do you know that my level 5 and your level 5 are equivalent? You don’t, do you?

    Menelik asks:

    may I asked how you ascertained that “SOME Chinese-Americans are proud of Harriet Tubman, Jack Johnson, Jackie Robinson, and Barack Obama”?

    And how did you arrive at “some”, and not a few or a minuscule minority? If there’s no scientific means of measuring pride then what means did you resort to measuring Chinese-American pride in African-American icons?

    Answer this one question, please and I’ll get back to you on the other matter.

    Thanks

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  400. The word “SOME” is an imprecise measure. I can go to the store and get SOME bottled water, or a cruise ship can pick up SOME water while in port. The difference may be in millions of gallons. SOME is an all-purpose word.

    When using an imprecise word you don’t need to answer questions about it.

    When you make a pretense to knowing more precise percentages, [Like a "miniscule minority"] that’s when you have to start explaining yourself.

    WE ARE WAAAY, way, off topic. Shall we retire this thread?


  401. Jasmin,

    I was referring to one’s individual experiences being viewed as universal by the individual in question. One doesn’t have to engage in stereotypes to believe that one’s experiences are universal. King is under the impression that because he isn’t much interested in his ancestry that most people aren’t. This is an immature view. This is what I was pointing out to King.

    All stereotypes are not created equal. Some stereotypes have wide appeal while others are cast away relatively quickly. I think that those stereotypes with the largest amount of truth to them are the most enduring.


  402. King,

    I can understand why you wouldn’t want to defend the many errors in your posts here, but let’s just focus on two.

    You wrote:

    Racism, and even tribalism was impossible in the earliest epochs of human history.

    You based this remark on the assumption that there was a single human progenitor pair, like the Biblical Adam and Eve. You went on to say:

    Homo Sapiens, at this point, were brothers, sisters, cousins, and second cousins.

    I asked you to show how Homo Sapiens avoided the problem of inbreeding depression. This is a basic question. I would like to hear your answer.

    Secondly

    If Homo Sapiens single-handedly wiped out the Neanderthals (highly doubtful) then it was not an act or racism, but a case of one species driving another species into extinction.

    It seems to me that you have not researched this topic to any great degree. There is DNA evidence that shows that Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons did procreate with each other and that the pairings were exclusively between Cro-Magnon males and Neanderthal females (was there rape too?). Different species CAN’T procreate. This is an essential element of speciation. So, if these two groups of early humans were able to mate, then they were very close genetically speaking. So, Cro-Magnons really could have engaged in racism against the Neanderthals, even by your immature definition of racism. Please address the fact that Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons reproduced with each other.


  403. RR,

    Er, not quite. That’s the layman’s understanding of stereotype formation and maintenance, but in actuality it doesn’t have much to do with “truth” (in the numerical sense of X amount of people doing Y); it has more to do with motive and bias, both of which can be either positive or negative.


  404. on Wed 21 Apr 2010 at 01:51:17 Menelik Charles

    King said:

    The word “SOME” is an imprecise measure.

    Menelik replies:

    it’s not that imprecise, Bro King! From what I gather the term ‘some’ – as an adjective or an adverb, CAN mean the following

    1) “relatively MANY but unspecified in number”

    2) “imprecise but FAIRLY close to correct”

    here’s the link:

    http://www.audioenglish.net/dictionary/some.htm

    the words” imprecise” and “unspecified” certainly stand out here but the so does the term “many” and phrase “close to correct” which are forms of specification.

    So I will ask the question again, if I may: If there is no scientific means of measuring pride then what means did you resort to measuring Chinese-American pride in African-American icons?

    King said:

    A White person, or a Chinese person, or a Latino person, can feel pride in a Black person. A Black person can feel pride in a White person.

    It all depends on their CONNECTION.

    Menelik replies:

    and isn’t this “connection” a means by which to measure group pride (you appear to have used it as such)? So what’s the “connections” between the white astronaut, Neil Armstrong, and African-Americans of the 1960s? I would guess nationality and not much else.

    Blacks became especially interested in space travel only when the first African-American, Guion Bluford, entered space. It depended on their “connection”, you see!

    Before Bluford it was merely a game between the white USSR and white America!

    So using this notion of “connection” as a means of measuring pride we could argue that African-Americans were COLLECTIVELY proud of Guion Bluford’s achievement, irrespective of the varying degrees of pride felt by individual African-Americans.

    I am equally arguing that the idea of Chinese-American activists telling you of their pride in African-American icons is every bit as shallow as an Arab or an Indian calling me “Brother” when I enter their store!

    Thanks

    Menelik Charles
    London England


  405. RR said:

    ” I think that those stereotypes with the largest amount of truth to them are the most enduring.”

    To put “stereotype” and “truth” in the same sentence like that would be like putting “prostitute” and “love” in the same sentence. Shall we try it:

    ” I think that those prostitutes with the largest amount of love to give are the most enduring.”

    Half the point of this post was to show that stereotypes have very little to do with the truth.


  406. Jasmin,

    I think enduring stereotypes have quite a lot to do with truth, regardless of intent. This is why stereotypes endure.

    Let’s take the common stereotype of the short Oriental nerd. This stereotype endures because, on average, Oriental males are shorter than other groups of males and Orientals are disproportionately represented in the hard sciences. The stereotype reflects reality although not in all cases, or even most cases, but contains enough truth to it to be plausible.

    What about the stereotype of watermelon eating blacks? This is a stereotype that was very common at one time. One hardly encounters it anymore (at least in the US) because blacks don’t eat a disproportionate amount of watermelon, thus the stereotype is easily falsifiable. The stereotype of the black criminal is very common and has been around for a long time. It has legs because blacks do commit a disproportionate percentage of violent crime. So there is an underlying reality supporting the stereotype of the black criminal.

    Abagond,

    You wrote:

    ” I think that those prostitutes with the largest amount of love to give are the most enduring.”

    This is a very wayward analogy you have constructed for yourself. Exactly what are you trying to say? How do loving prostitutes endure? Does love make prostitutes immortal? You are not making a good argument. Let’s see:

    Truth is to stereotype as prostitutes are to love.

    Truth can be objectively verified, regardless of the difficulty of proving a truth. Stereotypes may, or may not reflect an objective truth. A stereotype’s endurance is related to the reality the stereotype poses to people. Prostitutes may or may not be capable of love, but they endure, nonetheless. The endurance of prostitutes is quite outside the realm of love.

    Your analogy falls flat. Let’s see if we can make a better analogy. How about the following:

    Truth is to stereotype as money is to value.

    Truth can be objectively verified. Value can be objectively verified. Stereotypes may or may not reflect an underlying reality. Money may or may not reflect underlying value. Yes, that is much better. What was your point again?


  407. on Thu 26 Aug 2010 at 19:01:03 Reality vs misconception

    granted the fact that our genes shape everything in us,like feelings,tastes,sexual preferences,and grated that our genes slowly or fast change or even replaced through our single lifes,from exterior factors,then why its so hard to accept that may some people have genes that drime them crazy about women or having the exact sexual behaviour?Our genes maybe changing maybe not,but those are responsible at that time for our behaviours and the ones when someone rapes a woman/girl at that exact time.Some say its the brain/mind factor but the brain its the result of genes and through its procession in our lives have a huge impact on our genes.What i want to say its that its not evil,”racist” or nazi to conclude that various or single human genetic groups expose violent behavours at given times.The subject is not to villify people and find scapegoats,or play it always-innocent,its to make our lives better.Putting the race card and calling every report on criminality and race a prelude to a new Auschwich,its hypoctical and wearsome.Saying that this kind of fish presents more violent acts than the other,doesnt mean we want to exterminate this kind or worsen its situation(nor we owe to make it better always).I agree that white men many times are jumping the shark,and not giving a damn to stop white women from getting raped,but this is not a good reason to disqualify renounce the statistics and facts and disqualify from our lives the truth.


  408. More reality, and less misconception, please.

    “granted the fact that our genes shape everything in us,like feelings,tastes,sexual preferences,and grated that our genes slowly or fast change or even replaced through our single lifes,from exterior factors”

    None of that even factual. Genes are not like some sort of magical computer program that determines everything in your life. There is not a gene for cursing, and another one for college, and yet another one for raping women.

    Have you ever even studied genetics, or statistics?


  409. on Tue 21 Sep 2010 at 22:05:54 Reality vs misconception

    I’ve studied a hell lot of statistics and other types of mathematics because there were necessary to finish the university faculty i had chosen(believe me the mathematics you are taught in a high engineering university faculty,are a lot more complicate than in economical directions or in your biology classes).Anyway the our point is not statistics,i haven’t study biology so i don’t consider my opinion objective to that of geneticist’s or biologist’s(not to mention that even genecitists seems to fight like dogs and can’t agree to a lot of topics related to genes).Nothing of them though prevents from expressing my opinion on any subject,otherwise the owner of that blog should have deleted a lot of his posts and omit a lot of his poster’s replies.But i’ve got to say it and its my opinion after all,its not statistics that make genetics.Anyway at least i know that statistics dont determine the formation or faculty of a gene ,but describe it.They are indifferent subjects to relate them,when it comes to the reasoning for the mere existence of a gene.Besides that you are wrong for misquoting me,i didnt say that genes resemble to computers but they are made of chemical substances that allows them to change,mutate(if mutation isn’t a change) and many other things.That special or not substances that every gene is made of are responible for its faculties.For mostly enviromental reasons,our genes are changing at a certain rate.Some certain creatures developed in certain enviroments.Be it the first reason for violence shortage of food or shortage of space,for certain reasons we know that they have adapted to their enviroments,when immigration to another place failed or was impossible by any means.Adaption equates development of certain genotypes,formation of new genes,mutation and i dont know what else as non-expert on the issue.Some of that genes are the products of long period,and some of them are too difficult to change or vanish given a present movement of the bearer.For instance the slave-trading,when blacks from nigerian tropical region were relocated to a colder american east coast,where that group of people given their presence at that area for a longer era they maybe would have adapted “peacefully”,so non-black people who came later wouldn’t blame on them many heidous behaviours).Some other genes maybe are able to somekind of a quick upgration.A violent or abusive enviroment at an early stage of an individual’s life maybe has an impact,insignificant or not,to his/her genes.The problem is that most people give importance to the last reasoning,so that is our system at that time,the welfare system or educational programs of that time to blame always.Maybe its not,and we have to look in the first reasoning,and its not “white man’s” school or society to blame.I am not saying this so in that case to hint that all blacks are an inferior race,but that we should stop devoting our efforts in denial of the causes and reasons of rape in this case.Maybe some certain people need some special “medical” treatment to become less violent,and a new utopian educational system wont change the situation.I don’t blame black people for their imbalanced presence at most crime statistics.The english,spanish,dutch,jewish and french that brought them as slaves in America are to blame,but they are 250 years dead by now,and we should solve it by ourselves .Some people cannot adapt to certain levels of civilization as we conceive civilization most of us in the “west”,and forced intrusion(e.x.relocation of slaves) to “hostile” enviroments,until adaption being accompliced would lead to violent situations,if proper measures not taken.I dont wont to vilify black americans,extermination or defamation is not the answer.


  410. Huh?


  411. par·a·graph   
    [par-uh-graf, -grahf] Show IPA
    –noun
    1.
    a distinct portion of written or printed matter dealing with a particular idea, usually beginning with an indentation on a new line.


  412. Herneith–

    Huh?

    RDKirk–
    He’s saying the “Final Solution” is the only real solution, but he’s too nice to say so out loud.


  413. Is that reality guy on speed or what?


  414. The guy claims to be a university grad and yet doesn’t have the slightest clue what the word “faculty” means, apparently.


  415. I know he posting something, but I got cross-eyed after the third sentence.


  416. Tsk, tsk. It’s a pure shame what cocaine can do to a body…


  417. And bad liquor!


  418. Cisco, Thunderbird, or Nighttrain you reckon?


  419. Every study has shown that blacks have much lower IQ, much shorter time horizons, much higher impulsivity and violence, much higher sociopathic indicators, much higher testosterone levels, and much higher sex drive than other races. It’s only to be expected that black men would commit rape far more than men of other races. This does not mean of course that all black men or most black men are rapists; it means that within the black population there is a rape-prone sub-population that commits rape at an extremely high rate.


  420. and much higher sex drive than other races.

    Sounds like your jealous.


  421. @herneith: :D


  422. AND THEY STINK.


  423. Yeah, he’s jealous alright.

    Peter Lerman says “BLaQck pEopLes bE sTnYyk” to compensate for his a small penis.


  424. @king: :D


  425. @peter lerman

    your research stinks.


  426. anyway, in america , the history the media,and society, do potray blacks as being everything that is bad. so of course by all means necessary they are going to say black men commit the most rape. then they conduct certain research to make it more believable.and folks like peter lerman waiting to eat it all up. he don’t know better. he is a born racist

    i wonder if they have statistics of black women that was raped in slavery ,jim crow etc. , and reaserch the white men testosterone level, IQ, and sex drive. at that time?

    excuse my spelling


  427. AND THEY STINK.

    Must be your upper lip you’re smelling.


  428. Reinstate slavery.


  429. Reinstate education for trailer-bound rednecks with internet access.


  430. on Fri 17 Dec 2010 at 02:09:21 America Gentleman Samuel

    The Negro is the Beast of the Field. The Beast with Hands. The Beast that Talks. It is a vile, soulless creature, completely devoid of human emotion and incapable of rational thought. We must take Dominion over the feral Nigbeast, to prevent its wickedness and savagery. Go in Peace, and Praise the LORD, Amen.


  431. We must take Dominion over the feral Nigbeast, to prevent its wickedness and savagery. Go in Peace, and Praise the LORD, Amen.

    We must take dominion over purulent jacka**es who exude such suppurating pus! Sirrah, you are a pustule on the buttocks of a degenerate corrupt rascal. May God have mercy on your soul, someone has to. God protect us from such calumnious cretins Praise the Lord and pass the dough! Amen!


  432. America Gentleman Samuel:

    White men wiped out nearly everyone who used to live in what is now America, brought a half million in chains and raped their women and yet it is blacks who are somehow the savage beasts? Whites made their own children into slaves, yet is is blacks who are “vile, soulless creature, completely devoid of human emotion”? For all the bad things blacks have done in America it does not even begin to compare to what whites have done.


  433. @samuel: I know you are scared, boy, but relax. Negroes do no care about you and your kin. You can still wear your pointy hood and stumble around in dark woods beyond them hills in the middle of the night while doing so. :D

    Negroes are no coming after you, my son. They let you be. They have moved on, eehhhh… About forty years ago. With some luck, your own mayor is a negro, just like that president in that WHITE house is BLACK. :D

    And I bet your daughter has listened some black negro entertainer in the loneliness of her room and by-god-dammit hasn’t she let her fingres travel around in unsuitable places while fantazising about that fore said negro male in her bedroom!

    And by-god-dammit ain’t it true that there are more and more interracial relationships around! Just look at the magazines and teevee and ya’ll see all those negro males openly having affairs with all them white women who don’t even look a shamed!!

    And goddammit ain’t there white boys going out with black women openly in crystal clear daylight too!! Yes there are. And these are making babies who are brown and all kinds of colors goddammitt!!

    Well, samuel, looks like yer watch is about one century and a half out of time. But hang in there, son. One day some negro might be friendly enough that you move to live in a house owned by that negro instead a trailer owned by your klan buddy. And that negro might be christian enough not to rip you totally off with the rent. Then you shall praise the Lord truly! :D


  434. @american gentleman samuel

    is that the kkk scriptures?


  435. Every study has shown that blacks have much lower IQ, much shorter time horizons, …

    Every study? Every what? Study? That’s a word you only know from the internet, don’t you?


  436. @american gentlemen samuel

    well i reckon y’all beta light up the cross

    lol


  437. I was almost jumped in my alley by two black men. I’ve been harrassed by multiple black people asking for directions (then money), diapers (then money). It’s all bull(&*@#


  438. on Fri 11 Feb 2011 at 04:16:09 Menelik Charles

    Brenda,

    I’m sorry to hear of your experiences.


  439. why do blacks have more negative statistics


  440. This article completely disregards rapes by Blacks in conjunction with the population of blacks. In a nation where whites compile 74.8% of the population of course their crime rates are going to be high.

    But when we compare the amount of rapes by race to the size of the demographic we see a different pictures. 32.2% of rapes per year in the US doesn’t sound that bad compared to the 65.2% except for the fact that blacks are such a small minority in the US. So small in fact that they comprise 12.4%. Yet in that 12.4% they comprise more than double their percentage in rapes.

    These percentages are based on numbers compiled by the NCVS.


  441. The Justice Department does keep statistics by race. Black’s commit rape at numbers that far exceed their population demographic.


  442. This article is nonsense.
    First, the FBI only look at a small proportion of cases that warrant cross state attention.
    You need to look at the DOJ victim report stats.
    You do this and state “interracial rape is so rare that there are fewer than ten cases in its sample.”
    That’s for WHITE ON BLACK rape. Statistically negligible, but for technical reasons they used the 0-10 category.
    You conveniently ignore the BLACK ON WHITE stat from DOJ 2005, which gives a figure of 37,460.
    There is little more to be said after seeing that figure.


  443. I believe you are wrong, but if you can provide a link I will look at it. It has been a year since I had my head in this stuff, but if I remember correctly, that “0-10″ bit is what people keep misunderstanding and makes everything else they say wrong.


  444. The actual empirical statistics you have shown only prove that black men commit those crimes more than rape, not that they do not commit at high rates. They do commit interracial rape at higher rates than white men. Thus, it proves they are the real racists. And, I don’t want to hear whitey deserves it for all those years of oppression. Every individual is responsible for their own crimes/sins. No black person alive today suffered institutional segregation or slavery. Only rapists if anyone would deserve to be raped. As for Canada and Australia, what is the ratio of men to women in those places so abundant with wilderness compared to civilization and higher alcoholic content in their beer, etc?


  445. There’s just no way to get an accurate measure of this, for a few reasons:

    1) Most rapes go unreported.
    2) Most rape victims will be white for the simple reason that most women in America are white.
    3) The race of the rapist probably impacts the likelihood that the rape is reported (although I won’t guess to what degree).

    Even if we started with the assumption that black men do commit rape on a statistically higher basis, I would argue that poverty and not race is to blame.

    4) Poverty –> Drug Abuse –> Rape. Whether you’re a guy jacked up on coke or a drugged up woman unable to resist, drugs and rape are a common combination.
    5) Poverty –> Gang activity –> Rape. This one shouldn’t need an explanation.
    6) Poverty –> Rejection, Anger –> Rape.

    All that said… there is the persistent degradation of women in the black gangster culture. Of course white men listen to that stuff too, so who knows what impact it’s having.


  446. Crimes follow certain social migration patterns that have little to do with skin color. For example, violent crimes tend to migrate from areas of lesser education and wealth into areas of greater education and wealth. However conversely, financial exploitation (like the sub-prime A.R.M. real estate crimes) tend to migrate from areas of greater wealth and education into areas of lesser wealth and education.

    To put it plainly, as regards to rape, rapists generally try to strike in neighborhoods that are less dangerous (softer) that their own. In fact, you will rarely find a criminal going into a neighborhood that he perceives to be more dangerous than his own, to commit violent crimes (unless he is desperate, impaired, or crazy).

    Case in point is, most White rapists are not going into Harlem, Watts, South Chicago, or other poorer Black neighborhoods, to commit their rapes. This is because they perceive these areas to be risky. In fact, they may stay away from many majority Black areas altogether, because they don’t make any distinction between poor and middle-class Black neighborhoods.

    On the other hand, Black rapists, from poor and undereducated areas, will be more likely to target people in more affluent areas because they consider them to be less dangerous, and less vigilant. It is likely that a higher percentage of White people will be living in those affluent areas.

    It’s a simply an issue of criminal calculation, not one of color.


  447. @King

    Another excellent point.

    After some consideration – some of that about whether I should even mention it – I’ve decided that a better measure, if you actually wanted to know, would be to compare rape statistics among college students. Then you’d be looking at a situation where everyone involved was on a fairly level economic plane and living in equally safe or dangerous conditions.

    Ultimately rape is the crime of an individual, and that’s the only place moral responsibility can lie. Some explain rape in social and economic terms, and I don’t doubt those are factors. But before every rape there is a man choosing to hurt someone badly for his own pleasure. Nothing excuses that.


  448. The most important words in American History are: “Segregation today, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever.” If we had followed this sagacious advice of George Waqllace we would not have to suffer this holocaust against the white race. A great back lash will erupt and it will not be pretty for those who have promted, encouraged the destruction of the Aryan peoples. Once aroused we can destroy the mongrels and their mud allies in an afternoon of vengence.


  449. @ Jon acord

    Save your breath. There will be no great backlash. There will be no new dawn for for the ill-conceived and ill-imagined “Aryan” people. Just forget about it.


  450. The most important words in American History are: “Segregation today, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever.

    No sir, the most important words in American history are Praise the Lord and pass the dough!

    If we had followed this sagacious advice of George Waqllace we would not have to suffer this holocaust against the white race.

    I you had followed the sagacious advice of Alfred C. Newman, you would have been even more hilarious than this George “Waqllace’. Any relation to Alfred C. Newman?

    A great back lash will erupt and it will not be pretty for those who have promted, encouraged the destruction of the Aryan peoples.

    The only backlash to occur will be against products of incest such as yourself!

    Once aroused we can destroy the mongrels and their mud allies in an afternoon of vengence.

    Once aroused you can whilst away the afternoon fantasizing about corn liquor and it’s ill effects on the brain!


  451. @ Herneith

    Ha! lolz :-)

    @ John

    Perhaps you should pay heed to Governor Wallace’s more recent words:

    “Wallace announced that he was a born-again Christian in the late 1970s, and apologized to black civil rights leaders for his earlier segregationist positions. He said that while he had once sought power and glory, he realized he needed to seek love and forgiveness.[note 3] In 1979, Wallace said of his stand in the schoolhouse door: “I was wrong. Those days are over and they ought to be over.” His final term as Governor (1983–1987) saw a record number of black appointments to government positions.”

    Try to keep up with the times…

    Now repeat after me: “This is 2011.” Good! Now again… very good!


  452. “Maybe John could try to join us (in 2011) one day…”

    Maybe Bulanikgirl, but I wouldn’t hold my breath in the mean time.


  453. The reptiles are crawling out from under the rocks

    There are many more of us out there ready and willing to crush you Bolsheviks. We await the day when we assume power in one guise or another. It might surprise you. Hope you are around to enjoy your final days spreading hate against the Aryans. You will be the first to be disciplined.


  454. The reptiles are crawling out from under the rocks

    Not only that, they are getting their groove on!

    Here’s a reptile who crawled out of a toilet!

    There are many more of us out there ready and willing to crush you Bolsheviks.

    Not if more of us ‘reptiles’ crawl out from rocks and toilets you won’t!

    We await the day when we assume power in one guise or another. It might surprise you.

    I can’t see that happening anytime soon. You see you have to be sober to do those things, not bombed out of your skulls. Besides, the aliens already beat you to it.

    Hope you are around to enjoy your final days spreading hate against the Aryans. </em.

    I don't think so. I will be too busy at the BINGO parlour to care.

    You will be the first to be disciplined.

    Sounds like something out of a cheap S&M fantasy, no thanks!


  455. “We await the day when we assume power in one guise or another. It might surprise you.”

    Mwahahahahaha!

    Aren’t you forgetting about Z.O.G.? You will never defeat ZOG!!! And since we are all the willing thralls of the almighty zogsters, I don’t think that you have a prayer of a chance. Resistance is futile, you filthy pinkskin!!!

    Bow to ZOG!!


  456. @King:

    Dotar Sojat!


  457. Thank you sir for your blog as it at least encourages thought and debate. I can see that you are very selective on what facts and stats you cite. Anyone can run a search “Black on black rape” and see for themselves. The justice Department does report rape percentages committed by both black men and white men. Yes, some racist scumbags will use that as anecdotal evidence that blacks are “inferior” or predisposed to violence. A much more accurate and sober conclusion would point a finger at the inner-cities and fatherless boys growing up with very little good values reinforcement. I would like real facts published without a political agenda to point out the fact this county’s inner-cities need help and a reinforcement of traditional values and respect for women. Anyone is welcome to contact me on this. God bless everyone.


  458. Well, it’s the white woman’s “fault”. They spread their legs open too much, b/c they know they gonna get some nice BBC.
    They want the black babies. Spreading our seed is our duty, my brothas!


  459. ^ Nice try YT (I don’t think anyone believe’s your Black)


  460. “Well, it’s the white woman’s “fault”. They spread their legs open too much, b/c they know they gonna get some nice BBC.
    They want the black babies. Spreading our seed is our duty, my brothas!”

    ur disgusting.


  461. Hey Cap 40. That is sick. I hope my daughter does not meet you. Enough said.


  462. Out of all the comments on here, RR makes the best arguments. Some of you can learn a lot from him.


  463. RR has been banned because he doesn’t make any sense


  464. RR was banned for his stalkerish behaviour.


  465. If “the police still arrest twice as many white men for rape” as black men, then given that there are way more than twice as many white men as black men, this proves that black men are more dangerous, because they are more likely to commit rape. You’ve made a basic error in conditional probabilities.

    Pretty much everything else is wrong too, but we can start with that.


  466. Haha… What a dunce. The mathematics of collectivism.


  467. @ james:

    I deleted your comment as a cut-and-paste plagiarism. Please put it in your own words.


  468. It’s no surprise that racist trolls would come out in full force to speak out against this entry and throw their whiteness around.


  469. White guy here! Glad to meet ya! How are you folks doing this fine autumnal evening? Why, alongside my tasty wife Cass (hands off! LOL), I’m enjoying a nice glass of micro-brew after a healthy wild-caught salmon dinner. We even had a side of organic veggies lightly-sauteed in coconut aminos. Yummy.

    Anyhoo, I’m gonna throw my unrelenting dislike of ALL rape around and suggest that anything outside of a straight-up psychopath would find serial -rape, no matter the demographic of victim or perpetrator, sick and terroristic. Newsflash: Caucasoids, Mongoloids, and Negroids all count equally. What a concept. Say it slowly now so it sticks: “Respect all humanity that doesn’t mess with me or my brother/sister innocents.” The media, the academy, and the govt. conspire to divide the races and stop us from conjuring the mighty force of unity and burning their figurative house down to the ground. Any regular person on the street who buys into the racial war is a chump digging his or her own bitter grave. Get it together before it’s too late. All violence is deplorable and must be spoken out against with the loudest of voices. There’s enough love and bling for everyone!


  470. Boy, a read through a lot comments – way too many for such a simple topic. Do blacks rape whites more than whites rape blacks? That’s the question. The answer is yes, and to a startling degree. What does it all mean? It means that if a white woman had to get home and she had two choices – one was to walk through a pack of 100 white men, the other a pack of 100 black men – what should she do? She goes towards the white group. What is so hard to understand? This simple analogy can be extrapolated to neighborhood, school, work, etc.. Please continue with your subterfuge, I doubt you’re convincing even the average among us – the days of pulling the wool are ending.


  471. Brahms said:

    “Baa baa”

    He addresses none of the points in the post but instead just bleats the same old lie that whites have been telling themselves for over a hundred years.


  472. It means that if a white woman had to get home and she had two choices – one was to walk through a pack of 100 white men, the other a pack of 100 black men – what should she do?

    Pick the pack with the best looking men in it. Barring that, canvass them all and find out which men have the best paying jobs and their views on marriage. Find out if they enjoy female led relationships. If all else fails, blame Canada!


  473. “He addresses none of the points in the post but instead just bleats the same old lie that whites have been telling themselves for over a hundred years.”

    Things racist trolls do.


  474. Two ad hominems and one unrealistic suggestion. The fact that American blacks are currently more violent than other races is proven – it is up to the individual (blacks included) to decide how best to protect themselves. You assume racism but you are incorrect (you use this word to associate me with NeoNazis and the like -its a Guilt By Association and invalid). My stance is not racist it is realistic; this increased tendency towards violence is not shared by all blacks (“all” is key to defining one as a racist) nor is this racism shared by large sects of blacks around the world. I do not believe that all blacks have an inherent tendency towards violence so my stance cannot be racist. I do believe that through government programs, message (media, school), and dysgenics (also fostered by govt), violent pathologies and racism are and have been perpetuated in the black community. All races have a natural tendency towards group identification and if this tendency is fostered with claims of persecution by the Other group, violent retribution can result. It is no different than saying White Germans were racist and violent Jews, or Hutus were against Tutsis – both examples of racial violence against the supposed oppressor. We are living in a time in history when American Blacks are taking out their racism on Whites, Koreans, Mexicans, et al.; this racism is fostered by the government and supported by black leaders and white liberals who preach persecution by the other races (mainly White).


  475. @ Brahms

    So wait, are you saying that white people suffer from a violent pathology? Is that why women are more likely to be raped in Canada and Australia,since those countries are much whiter than America? Is that why white people killed so many Jews, Gypsies and natives in North America, Australia and elsewhere?


  476. Whites practice racial violence as well -Whites would be included in “all races” I believe ( I gave the example of White Nazis above) – did you read my post? Everyone is capable of violence – its not a pathology. Anytime inherent racial tendencies are stoked by claims of oppression by the Other, violence is a possibility. We are talking about interracial violence so you’ll need to show how the rapes in Canada are interracial for me to discuss it – like I said, blacks are not inherently more violent than other races.
    When one race is attacking another race(for whatever reason), the attacked race will fight back. What Liberals (and others mentioned above) are brewing-up is a race war.


  477. I probably shouldn’t have said “pathological violence” – what I was trying to convey was the increased violent nature among a sub-population of American blacks. It may be completely normal – psychologically speaking.


  478. Interesting term – “race war.”
    Makes me wonder what exactly has been taking place in the last, say 400-500 years … “racial skirmishes??”

    If only whiteness -could- take a really hard analytical look at itself.. ITS OWN PATHOLOGIES (which is like asking the police to police itself)
    **smh**


  479. Matari – what ever do you mean?
    Of course race wars have been going on for centuries – that was kind of my point :) Shall I name a few?
    What should White people be noticing about themselves? Are you insinuating that it is Whites who are perpetrating the violence against Blacks in 2011?- statistics show the opposite.
    But I know what you are getting at: you believe that white people are evil, racist, and responsible for almost all of the world’s problems since the Roman Empire – sounds like its time for a little payback. I’ve heard it before – in fact I was taught something similar in college;
    White man killed the Indians and all that. Its almost as if you people believe Whites have a monopoly on racial violence – I’d suggest waking up. All races are capable of racial violence and whites are now on the receiving end – some cheer this fact.

    SINS OF THE FATHERS — Euripides (c. 485-406 B.C.), Phrixus, fragment 970: “The gods visit the sins of the fathers upon the children.”

    “They just said ‘Oh, white girl bleeds a lot,'” said Perry, 22, who was attacked at Kilbourn Reservoir Park over the Fourth of July weekend.
    (this was a quote from one of thousands of victims of black racist violent crime)


  480. “But I know what you are getting at: you believe that white people are evil, racist, and responsible for almost all of the world’s problems..”

    *******************************
    See if you can wrap your mind around these words – in a literal fashion.

    White people are NO MORE evil than anyone else. And yet as a collective/group they ARE “UNIQUELY” BASE to the nth degree due to their acceptance and breadth/depth/application of their whiteness – how it affects them, and how it affects others.

    The overwhelming extent of the effect of whiteness on white (and non-white) people is so extraordinary inhumane over hundreds of years that I can only refer to it as – DEMONIC.

    Now, if you or others take what I just said to mean that I’m saying that white people are especially evil – then that’s on you. I’m not responsible for anyone’s lack of reading comprehension.


  481. Yeah, pretty much what I said. People who share race have and will attack others of a different race – not always violently of course. The problem is when you, and people like you, label Whites as the only race that does this – as the above quote does. A white person in 500 A.D. living in what is today Eastern Europe would say the same thing about Asians (Huns).

    Were you trying to make a different point?


  482. @Brahms

    “Hutus were against Tutsis”

    HOW EXOGENOUS FORCES PREPARED THE GROUND FOR THE RWANDAN GENOCIDE

    “…….ethnicity never played a decisive role in pre-colonial Rwandan history (Robbins, 1999: 294). Yet, using “modern scientific methods like the measurement of nose and skull size”, the colonizers established a system of “rigid ethnic classification” soon after their arrival….”

    http://prospectjournal.ucsd.edu/index.php/2010/03/how-exogenous-forces-prepared-the-ground-for-the-rwandan-genocide/

    as oppose to say…. this

    God and Croatians- Vatican’s Holocaust 1/6 – N@zi Croatia death camps

    N@zi “Death Camp” Jasenovac History


  483. @ Brahms

    Your paranoid fears are WAY off.

    For example:

    1. Interracial rape in America is so rare there are no solid numbers on it. Just numbers cooked up by fear mongerers like Pat Buchanan, Stormfront and Internet trolls.

    2. The black homicide rate in America is way higher than the white one, but the numbers are driven up by black-on-black murder, not black-on-white murder. According to FBI numbers for 2008, a white person is six times more likely to be murdered by another white person than by a black person.

    Blacks are not deranged savages who kill and rape at random. They kill and rape for the same reasons as everyone else. The black crime rate is higher than the white one because the police are not particularly interested in protecting the lives and property of black people.


  484. @Brahms

    Put your money where your mouth is. Show me the numbers that show most, half, or even a significant amount of black people are rapist and/or racist


  485. Abagond

    1. The stats are in table 42.

    http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/cvus06.pdf

    2. The majority of black violent crime is not black on black. 57% of black violent crime is against non-blacks.

    3. Police don’t instill morals. Blaming the police for actions of black violent criminal is about as…well its ludicrous.


  486. Goldfire – your position is that only whites band together as a race and attack other races? If you don’t like the Tutsi example fine, there are plenty more.


  487. cynic-

    “Put your money where your mouth is. Show me the numbers that show most, half, or even a significant amount of black people are rapist and/or racist”

    Why would I try to prove something I never said nor believe?


  488. You know what’s funny?

    White people LOVE to bring up black-on-white crime, but they NEVER bring up white-on-WHITE crime. While they are so worried about black men raping a white women, white women are being raped by a white men. But, the former seems to matter more than the latter almost everytime.


  489. We can talk statistics or we can talk anecdotal; both are legit in my book.

    In the U.S. there have been multiple cases of roving groups of blacks indiscriminately attacking whites for no other reason than to hurt them. Please show that this type of behavior also occurs in the inverse – white gangs attacking innocent blacks.

    Aside from the James Byrd dragging incident, I can think of none. The Byrd case is really not valid because the two whites knew Byrd quite well.


  490. BrotherWolf

    If a white women had to take a chance of walking through 100 random blacks vs 100 random whites on a dark night which should she choose? Since blacks rape at a much higher rate than whites – its an easy decision.

    That’s why it matters.


  491. You say blacks rape at higher rates than whites. Show me some evidence to back that up.

    Also, my point is that while you’re worrying about a hypothetical situation, white dudes here in America and all over the world are raping white women…and in some cases white youth.

    We’re not saying that interracial rapes don’t occur, but you’re making it sound like black men have some kind of inherit high sex drive and an inability to control themselves. Plus, you make it sound like black men are raping white women at extremely high rates. Even if that’s true, what are you doing to protect them? Where are the white men protecting their women from the evil, black male rapists?

    SMH


  492. Besides, why the hell would a white woman, all alone, be walking through 200 men on a dark night any way?? lol


  493. @Brahms

    Please show that this type of behavior also occurs in the inverse – white gangs attacking innocent blacks.


  494. If violence against black people has dropped around 70% and rapes are what 1/10th of what they used to be even back in the 80’s, then wouldn’t that imply that the liberal attack on morality has actually caused a serious drop both in black crime and crime in general?

    Instead of the reverse as has been claimed a couple times in the conversations in this debate?

    Hispanics claim themselves as white? Isn’t the average hispanic, ones in the US not ones actually in spain, around a third native, plus some black plus something else and somewhere around 60% white?


  495. @Brahms

    “If you don’t like the Tutsi example fine, there are plenty more.”

    On the continent of Africa? Please do, I’m all ears. However, prior to doing so you might want to take a look at this:

    Colonialism in Africa
    http://youtu.be/47wyvMv5ba8 :)


  496. Some excellent video contributions Cynic and GoldFire…


  497. GoldFire – I chose the Hutu -Tutsi example because it is a shocking example of how easily people divide by race. If you’d like other examples from Africa then look into Arab expansionism in Africa, 640-1900.


  498. Cynic – OK that’s almost legit. I only see one white kid but I’ll give it to you. If you’d like to now declare that black mobs attacking innocent whites is as great a problem as white mobs attacking innocent blacks then we can be done.


  499. Here is a video and a column:

    http://www.creators.com/conservative/walter-williams/hiding-black-interracial-crimes.html

    Hiding Black Interracial Crime
    According to the 2004 FBI National Crime Victimization Survey, in most instances of interracial crimes, the victim is white and the perpetrator is black. In the case of interracial murder for 2004, where the race of victim and perpetrator is known, more than twice as many whites were murdered by a black than cases of a white murdering a black. The failure of civil rights leaders, people like Jackson and Sharpton, as well as politicians to vocally condemn black-on-white crime — and the relative silence of the news media in reporting it — is not simply a matter of double standards. It’s dangerous, for it contributes to a pile of racial kindling awaiting a racial arsonist to set it ablaze. I can’t think of better recruitment gifts for America’s racists, either white or black.

    Walter E. Williams

    Tavis SMiley – Larry Elder

    Just to show that my argument is not a racist one.


  500. BrotherWolf – As I’ve said before, I don’t think Black issues are genetic. About as close to genetic as I get is when I say dysgenic. What I mean by dysgenic is the pattern of births – who is having the kids. Dysgenics is happening among whites as well. Simply, irresponsible people (often with low IQs) are having the majority of the babies.

    “You say blacks rape at higher rates than whites. Show me some evidence to back that up.”

    To black rape:
    Perceived race of attacker – all rapes
    White 48.8% Black 18.1%

    Blacks are 12.6% of population Whites are 72.4% = higher rate among blacks

    Table 40

    http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/cvus06.pdf


  501. Finally, on racial division: even in the black community in America, blacks identify by skin tone – he’s dark, he’s light, etc. (and I grew up in this so I’m not going to prove anything for you – and you know I’m right). We don’t do that in the white community – some whites are darker (maybe from Spain) some are very light (red head from Ireland) – we don’t talk about it. Race is more important to blacks than whites, but that’s another topic.


  502. I definitely don’t believe that gangs attack White People a lot. Like Abagond said and we know whites do not move near neighborhoods around blacks. And most whites will not walk around a lot of Black Men because they are prejudice.I have walked around a gang of black men and they were high schoolers not gangs but still, they never did anything. And also majority of statistics are false 85% are I honestly believe and know Abagond’s statistics are true but every time I see whites are the victims statistics you know what I mean like (fake statistics FYI) 80% of blacks attack whites or something negative else about Black people. And just because you don’t hear whites ganging or beating black people doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. You never see Black Women who have gotten kidnapped get attention like White Women who were kidnapped. Does that mean that Black Women NEVER get kidnapped? FYI there has been a major increase of White Men attacking Black Men not only by white police officers but random Men. I saw a video of these whites randomly calling a Black Man the n word about to attack him. A (ex or current) police officer was verbally attacked by these 2 white guys whites didn’t do anything of course. A Black Man named Elree Jones was attacked randomly slashed against his face by a white man and he still terrorized by that, of course. A Black guy at a university was beaten by a few white man (maybe 3 or more) because he was talking to a white woman and etc. Also I forgot to mention this but I was walking and 3 white guys in a truck yelled the n word at me and they drove down the street and of course I went the other way but I was/am so sure that they could have killed me that night, but just because you don’t hear whites attacking Blacks does not mean it doesn’t happen. They actually attack black people way more.

    http://scienceblogs.com/worldsciencefestival/2010/08/85_of_statistics_are_false_or.php

    Most white Americans generalize and are racist sorry those are facts.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misuse_of_statistics

    @Brahms What they could have done was y’know go to a prison and get all black prisoners and a little over half of them attacked a white person or a non Black person and that’s how they got 57%. I don’t believe they went to every prison in the US and that was the number. I don’t believe 57% attack non blacks, sorry. Now white Americans are saying and spreading(of course) that black people create the most hate crimes. I mean which one is it us creating a lot of hate crimes or black on black crimes? Make up your minds. Black on Black crime makes more sense to be honest. I mean you just can not win with White Americans “you see Blacks are always attacking each other”. “Oh blacks are always attacking whites they are so racist”.


  503. Oh wow, I typed a lot I have to stop that. It’s so weird because I am so quiet outside of the Internet.


  504. Gio – wake up.

    Denver, CO – A White female teenager, Brandy DuvaI, is raped, sodomized, tortured with a broomstick and stabbed 28 times by a gang of six blacks and Hispanics. Her skull is caved in and corpse dumped into a ditch. Police confiscate a blood soaked mattress as evidence. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

    Killeen, TX – A White couple, Todd and Stacy Bagley are kidnapped on the way to church, lit on fire, burned to death and shot in the head by four blacks. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

    Flint, MI – Three White teenagers, Michael Carter, Dustin Kaiser and (girl’s name withheld by police) are attacked by six black youths. Carter is shot and killed. Kaiser is beaten and shot in the head, but recovers. The girl is forced to perform oral sex on her black attackers, pistol whipped and shot in the face. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

    South Carolina – A White female, Melissa McLaughlin, is raped, tortured and skinned alive in a tub of bleach by seven blacks. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

    Racine, WI – A black gang member, Nazeer Ghani, fires into a crowd of White concert-goers while shouting racial epithets, killing father of two, Joe Rowan. Although identified by 30 witnesses, police release the killer for “lack of evidence.” This was not investigated as a hate crime.

    Jacksonville, FL – A mentally retarded White man, Gregory Griffith, is beaten and stomped unconscious by blacks. The blacks admitted to the police that they beat Griffith because “he was White”. The group allegedly had planned to attack the first White man who walked down the street. A witness testified that he saw fists flying and a White man backing out of a crowd, swinging and ducking before falling to the ground and being kicked in the midriff and head. Griffith died 13 days later from blunt head trauma.

    Kansas City, MO – A black male shoots two White co-workers, Michael Scott and Traci Riehle. Scott is killed and Riehle is critically injured. Police find a note referring to “blood sucker supreme White people”. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

    Alexandria, VA – An eight year old White child, Kevin Shifflet, is killed when his throat is slit by a black who also stabs his 80 year old great grandmother and punches her in the chest. Police find a rambling, handwritten note stating. “Kill them raceess whiate kidd’s anyway”. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

    Burlington, NC – A 10 year old White child, Tiffany Long, is raped, sodomized, sexually tortured and murdered by two black males and a black female. The black female rams a broomstick up her vagina and rectum. The parents were prohibited from seeing their dead daughter’s body. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

    Fayetteville, NC – Two white women, Tracy Lambert and Susan Moore, are carjacked by a group of seven blacks and Hispanics and shot execution style in the head. This murder was part of a gang initiation. The bullets found in the victims’ heads were painted blue, the Crips’ gang color. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

    Miami, FL – Seven Whites are murdered by the Yahweh Cult whose leader orders the members to cut off and return the ears of the victims as proof of the murders. The trial was conducted at the same time as the Rodney King trial! This was not investigated as a hate crime.

    Cincinnati, OH – Bricks were thrown by black rioters through car windows at the heads of any White drivers unfortunate enough to be in the area. A White woman was dragged from her car and brutally beaten by a black mob. An albino African American woman suffered a similar fate until a voice called out, “she is black.” At which point the beating stopped. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

    Charleston, SC – Troy Knapp and his friend, Gary Thornburg were riding their bicycles when they happened onto a group of black men. This mob attacked the two White men, knocking Gary unconscious and beating Troy with various objects including pipes. A large portion of Knapp’s skull had to be removed to allow for swelling in his brain. A damaged portion of his brain had to be surgically removed. He is seriously and permanently injured, and will never recover from the injuries of this beating. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

    Wilkinsburg, PA – A black man, Ronald Taylor shot five Whites, killing three. A black acquaintance stated that Taylor had said, “I’m gonna kill all White people. Prior to the attack, he told a black woman that he wouldn’t hurt her because he was “out to get all White people.” This was not investigated as a hate crime.

    Wichita, KS – Two black men broke in to a house and attacked five young Whites, all in their twenties, threatening them with guns. After driving their victims to an ATM and ordering them to withdraw money, the kidnappers took them to a deserted soccer field. There they raped the two White women in front of the men, including the fiancé of one of the young men. Finally they ordered the five White victims to kneel and shot them all execution style. Only one of the young women was not killed. She walked more than a mile, naked and bleeding through the snow until she found help. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

    Seattle, WA – Mardi Gras or “Fat Tuesday” celebrations in that city were disrupted when gangs of black men roamed the crowd of thousands attacking White men and women, killing one and injuring 72. They were heard yelling racial epithets during their attacks. Killed was Kris Kime, beaten to death with a 40 ounce beer bottle after coming to the aid of a White woman he didn’t know who was being attacked by the black mob. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

    Charlottesville, VA – Police arrested 9 black men for a series of vicious gang assaults against White students in that college town. Of the nine arrested, one was an adult and the rest juveniles, one a local high school football “star.” Even though some of the blacks told cops that they intentionally chose their victims based on their race, authorities have declined to classify the attacks as “racially motivated.” This was not investigated as a hate crime.

    Salina, KS – A White man, Michael Streeter, 21, was kidnapped by three black men while pumping gas into his SUV. After being driven to a remote location, Streeter had an ear and multiple fingers hacked off, an eye gouged out, then was repeatedly run over with his own SUV, breaking his ribs and puncturing his lungs. The vehicle was found abandoned and on fire a short distance from the attack. The same blacks are suspects in the car-jacking of Postal employee Kyle James, 43, eight days earlier, during which the blacks used racial slurs. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

    Annapolis, MD – Three black teen-agers were charged with armed robbery in the attack of a White woman, Tracy VanDagna, 22, which left her in need of plastic surgery. One of the alleged perpetrators, Tacarra Tyler, 17, was charged as an adult. VanDagna was walking to her car when a black man struck her in the face with a rock, knocking her to the ground, then grabbed her hair and pulled her head back while a boy ran up and repeatedly kicked her in the face. The victim suffered a broken nose and needed five stitches on her hand. Police said that even after VanDagna turned over her backpack, the teen-agers continued to attack her. One witness told investigators that the assailants said they “beat up Whites because they don’t like them.” This was investigated as a hate crime.

    St. Lucie, FL – Three black males in a racially motivated attack beat a White female high school student. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

    Delray Beach, FL – Crystal Monique Thomas, 19, and Crystal Antoinette Adams, 20, were charged with battery for yelling racial slurs at a White woman. Thomas was also charged with a hate crime for slapping the woman and calling her a “stupid White bitch.”

    Tampa, FL – Two black youths, Telly S. Warren, 14, and James Taylor, 17, were charged with aggravated battery with a deadly weapon for throwing a deadly missile into a vehicle occupied by White passengers.

    San Francisco, CA – Lavonne Adams, 42, was charged with involuntary manslaughter and felony assault for kicking a White woman using a walker who fell, broke her hip and later died.

    Seattle, WA – Police asked prosecutors to consider hate crimes charges against a black teen who is accused of beating up and robbing Whites during Mardi Gras. The perpetrator allegedly told police he believed he was in the middle of a “racial war.”

    San Bernardino, CA – Catzrina Tatum, a 25-year-old black woman, was charged with “suspicion of a hate crime” for assaulting a White woman because of the woman’s ethnicity.

    Bowie, MD – Three black high school girls were charged with second-degree assault for attacking and verbally abusing a White male student. The three girls, one of whom was overheard saying she hated White people and that she and her friend would “pick on a different White person each day” — pushed the boy to the ground. The boy suffered a contusion to the head, a bloody nose and scrapes and bruises.

    Geneva, IL – A 32-year-old black man was charged with aggravated assault after he threatened to kill White police officers and their families.

    Minneapolis, MN – During a blizzard a car full of black gang members becomes stuck in the snow behind that of a White family. When the family got out of the car to help, they were beaten with baseball bats, with their 10 year old son going into a coma. The media reported that police were looking for a “blue car full of men” without mentioning the race of the attackers. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

    Springfield, TN – Two black teenagers murdered

    a White man who had displayed a Confederate flag on his pickup truck. According to testimony, on Jan. 14, 1995, the two black teenagers were cruising the highway when they spotted Michael Westerman, 19, and his wife Hannah, 21. Angered by the flag, the teenagers rounded up two other cars and followed Mr. Westerman and his wife. Boxing Westerman’s vehicle in with one car, the black youths pulled along side and shot Mr. Westerman to death. The two teenagers were found guilty of murder and attempted aggravated kidnapping. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

    Fall River, IL – Four black men, Damien Gouse, 20, Terry Lewis, 17, William Wheeler, 22, and John Baker, 19, were charged with attempted murder for shooting a White teenager.-This was not investigated as a hate crime.

    Edwardsville, IL – A black man, Taiwan Davis, 17, was convicted of first-degree murder for his participation in the mob-style beating death in August of a White man. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

    Alton, IL – A White male, Richard Skelton, is attacked and stomped to death by a group of 25 blacks while black onlookers yell, “Kill the cracker”. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

    Los Angeles, CA – Race riots erupt throughout the city resulting in 53 deaths, 10,000 arrests, 2,300 injuries, more than 1,000 buildings lost to fire, thousands of jobs lost and an estimated cost to the city of $1 billion in damages. The riots lasted several days, during which time, Reginald Denny, a White truck driver, was pulled from his truck by Damian Monroe Williams and Henry Keith Watson, who began beating and kicking him unmercifully. When he was dazed and helpless, Watson pinned him down with a foot on his neck while Williams threw a brick at his head, disfiguring and nearly killing him. Then Williams did a little victory dance. Denny, a man his attackers didn’t even know, was hospitalized for 16 days for multiple physical injuries and brain trauma. He has had recurring physical problems since, including blood clots in his legs and lungs. Although police helicopters and cameras overhead captured the event on videotape, the two blacks were acquitted by a predominantly black jury. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

    New Orleans, LA – A 28-year-old White man was attacked a few blocks from his home in Algiers Point on the day of Marti Gras by approximately 12 black teen-agers. The victim was attacked as he was exiting his vehicle. When the victim’s wife went outside to find the source of all the noise, she witnessed her husband being dragged across the street as the teens kicked and beat him with a steel garbage can lid. The victim suffered a broken jaw and other serious facial injures that required reconstruction. Police are treating this as a hate crime, which still remains unsolved.

    Cleveland, OH – A five year old White girl, Devon Duniver, was stabbed to death by a black teenager who said after the murder, “She got what she deserved.” This was not investigated as a hate crime.

    Kansas City, MO – A six year old White child, Jake Robel, is dragged to death by a black carjacker who drove away even as the boy being dragged screamed outside of the car door while still partially attached to the seat belt. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

    Buffalo, NY – A White man, Gary Traska, is stomped to death by three blacks. Many of his organs were actually split apart from the savage beating. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

    Fayetteville, NC – A White male, Donald Lange, is stomped by ten black males. Lange is now brain dead and a complete vegetable. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

    Bloomington, IL – A White female, Patricia Stansfield is dragged two miles to her death during a carjacking by a black male. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

    Reno, NV – A Polynesian immigrant kills a White police officer, George Sullivan, with a hatchet. Sullivan is struck 20 times. The immigrant admits to killing Sullivan because “he was a White police officer”. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

    Boulder, CO – A White female college student, is gang-raped at gun-point by six Asians. Because of court proceedings and fear of retaliation by the “Asian Crips”, she is referred to as “Jane Doe”. The Asians admit to raping the girl “because she was blonde and White”. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

    Pine Ridge Indian Reservation, SD- A White man is dragged to his death by Indians. Federal officials hesitate to call it a “hate crime”. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

    Philadelphia, PA – 16 year-old White youth Eddie Polec was beaten to death on the front steps of his own church by a roving mob of blacks who had chased and assaulted him and other White kids. This crime drew worldwide headlines due to the fact that dozens of frantic calls for help to (black) 911 operators went unanswered. Eddie bled to death in his girlfriend’s arms. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

    Fairfax, VA – A group of about 11 people attacked a White teen-age girl while yelling anti-American and anti-White slurs. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

    Annapolis, MD – A black teenager taunted a White woman and her daughter with a racial slur and punched them in the head.

    Ft. Pierce, FL – A black teen was arrested and charged with aggravated battery with evidence of prejudice for beating a White student in a racially motivated incident.

    Barstow, FL – Tavares Wright, 20, and Brandan Gatlin, 21, who are black, were charged with attempted second-degree murder and aggravated battery by a jail detainee for beating a White fellow inmate. This was not investigated as a hate crime.

    Jacksonville, FL – Two black men, Terrance McCray, 19, and Ledel Lawrence, 21, were convicted of murder in the beating death of a White man.

    Like


  505. Here’s a black leader who is rallying the troops for war.

    The NOI is not some fringe group – Obama employs them in high positions

    http://ibloga.blogspot.com/2008/02/how-many-nation-of-islam-members-will.html


  506. LOL @ Brahms

    “The NOI is not some fringe group – Obama employs them in high positions”

    NOI – Coming soon to YOUR (white) neighborhood! lol

    You’ve been watching Birth of a Nation, again? lol


  507. Anon L – Birth of a Nation? A film from 1915 – look up “relevant”. There were at least 10000 people in the audience. Now name a white equivalent.


  508. Brahms’s long list of crimes by people of colour against whites was posted at Stormfront in 2006:

    http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t312257/

    No dates or news sources are given there either.


  509. It may have been posted at storm front but that’s not where I found it. Anyway, this discussion is useless – a resolution needs to be found because this is leading to something very bad. In an economic disaster in this country, the PC media will not be able to cover up the actions of blacks – and whites will protect themselves. Its fixable but it takes courage – honorable blacks must stand up and apart from black monolithic thought.


  510. No, you’re asking black people to side with your white paranoid bullshit out of fear of “the consequences” lol. I find it funny yet sad that it’s almost always somebody white who parrots this race war crap. Doesn’t matter where you found that list of yours, it’s still a pile of junk meant to rile up the “I’m white and I’m under attack” crowd (which for some reason always finds themselves in black men’s pants). You share this rock with people who aren’t like you, suck it up.


  511. Brahms,

    You’re right. This discussion is useless when you try to disprove a blog topic while at the same time prove to everyone that you’re one of those people this topic refers to. To wit, you’re just proving that you’re a mere racist troll (trying to make whites feel good and blacks feel guilty) who should be ignored in order for the topic to get back on track again.

    By the way, if you didn’t get that list from Stormfront, where did you get it from?


  512. The list needs to be better documented for in diuscussions like this one has to be specific to the point of being perceived as pedantic. Perhaps, one could refer to just about any large daily newspaper to reconstruct the general theme that black on white violence is out of control. In fact, if you expand the concept of white to include east asians, hipanics and asians the statistic would be much higher than suggested by DOJ findings. Brams, this is the group that is so delided they belive the Pyramids and momuments of Egypt were erected by some long past black African civilization. Believing that nonsense makes them ill prepared to accept the modern, everyday reality of excessive black on white violence.


  513. Who cares where I got the list? Maybe it was storm front; I simply typed in “black on white crime list” sue me. The statistics have been shown and you chose to ignore them. How can we have a discussion when you choose to ignore government crime statistics? You’ll pretend blacks are oppressed, when its whites who suffer the attacks, and you’ll justify black on white violence with the “sins of the fathers” morality.
    What’s new?

    Sincerely yours,
    Blue Eyed Devil White


  514. The subject about black male rape is the white racist’s meth.

    Jon,

    First of all, daily newspapers are likely to report any crime committed by blacks faster than they would report on their successes. Does that mean blacks are incapable of great things? Hell no, but you can’t use the news as an objective source of information. Second, black-on-white crime is rare, not in epidemic proportions. Third, even if it was, who’s to say this isn’t a form of “historical karma?” White people haven’t exactly been saints and angels in the past 500 years in regards to people of color.

    Brahms,

    Save that “whites are victims of black attacks” babbling for the people at Stormfront because they will likely come to your support faster than the people who frequent here. What you said is nothing new. It’s been said way before you were even born even when white-on-black attacks were more open. By the way, no one justifies black-on-white attacks in here. However, considering how whites have made the lives of black folks in this country a living hell, and like Abagond said in another post, who’s the say it wasn’t totally undeserved. You see, whether you want to admit it or not, white people in this country get to live, while blacks and browns are forced to just survived. That isn’t a delusion nor is it an exaggeration.

    I’m done. You two are not worth the stress.


  515. Brotherwolf – you are proving exactly what I’ve implied. You actually think white people, as a collective, are doing something bad to black people; this justifies the attacks on whites. Your anger should be directed at the government who has turned a once honorable race into a dependent and angry rebellious rabble. Why are black neighborhoods horrible, crime filled, single mother, wastelands?
    Why are black family virtually nonexistent? Why are black children so anti-education? Why are 80% of black children born out of wedlock. Try to think a little deeper – its not whites its government programs instituted in the 60s after your communist savior primed the masses. If you want to blame white people, at least blame the right white people – Leftist whites, originally lead by Jews (the movement has snowballed) (King was a member). Who broke up the once successful black business districts? And don’t give me that crap about race riots – they didn’t happen in nearly every black business district yet they all dissapeard. And even if you believe the race riot theory, why haven’t they returned? What really happened?
    I know its not all blacks who hate whites or who attack whites – I’m a realist, you are indoctrinated in black anti-white thought.

    If you like – how have whites made the lives a black people a living hell?


  516. @ Brahms:

    Who is indoctrinating black people and how are they doing it?


  517. abagond

    Universities, Hollywood, news, govt – about every public dispensary of pop culture. What is the message? Is it that blacks are criminals and a problem for civil society? No. Its that blacks are noble people who are treated unfairly, held down, and they must break the oppression of whites. Did Roots help black white relations?
    The govt, through hate crime laws, affirmative action, quotas, and all the various govt hand out programs – instills in blacks the idea that they are being oppressed by whites – why else would they need all this help? The only other possible reason would be that they are inferior – but that’s not the message.

    This is not a master plan by “government” – that’s not how it works. Govt does the bidding of special interest groups who provide either money or votes.

    The bigger picture is why did they do it. Basically to break up white cohesion and power – blacks were only one piece in the game; they also used feminism, various anti-Christian wedges (outlawing bible reading in school – supreme court 1963), birth control, immigration of anti-white people, gay rights, sexual freedom, global citizen idea, change in anthropology – race is a “social construct”, cite white man as the enslaver and destroyer, destroy art (modern art), allow obscenity under freedom of speech or expression, portray sex as entertainment instead of child producing, place govt. in the stead of father, encourage easy divorce and give women the upper hand, break up all white areas by pushing non-whites in (mainly through urban renewal but also section 8 housing), and of course multiculturalism (whites can’t claim American culture anymore – America doesn’t have a culture they say).

    Who doesn’t like white cohesion and power among the populace? Non-whites – and who organized them – World Jewry.

    Who wrote King’s speeches? Stanley David LEVINSON, fund manager for the Communist Party USA. Who runs the ACLU? Southern Poverty Law Center?
    Who are the most outspoken critics of white privilege? What religion is Tim Wise?


  518. The NOI is not some fringe group – Obama employs them in high positions

    No he doesn’t, he employs these fellows:

    Believing that nonsense makes them ill prepared to accept the modern, everyday reality of excessive black on white violence.

    Say what? What are you on about? Seriously, you belligerent fools are truly sick. You are obssessed with black men’s sexuality. Could lack of ‘stats’ also indicate that black women being raped are less reported? That the justice system over there is so skewed that many black women do not come forward to report rapes as they do not think they will be heard? That is another sign of white privilege,; not coming forward when a crime is perpetrated because the person(s) may feel they will not have their day in court nor justice among other concerns. Don’t worry, there are enough white chicks to go around if that is what you are really concerned about. Alternately, get yourselves a man and call it a day, they are wonderful!


  519. *Sighs*

    Brahms is starting to sound more and more like David Duke.

    Here’s the truth. White folks who think like you, Brahms, WANT black people to be seen so badly that it will excuse your racism and other insecurities, AND you WANT us to be immoral, oversexed, and unintelligent. You WANT us to be bad which explains why you bring up black-on-white crimes. You WANT us to rape your women, rob, assault and beat up YOUR people so YOU can have a good EXCUSE to hate US. That’s why YOUR here.


  520. Who is indoctrinating black people and how are they doing it?

    Cthulu! Here’s Cthulu indoctrinating a white man in the ways of ‘whiteness':

    http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSbxD_yoN0jWO90j9QymUC6yCEpn12DErS2tyIyqmzrMkac5Z9_

    If it worked for them, it can work for anyone!

    Who doesn’t like white cohesion and power among the populace? Non-whites – and who organized them – World Jewry.

    Ah, now we get to the gist of your argument, your real argument that is! I guess it was the Jews who ordered, manipulated whatever, all those black men to go out and rape all those women? You are delusional!


  521. Dag! This would be a nice blog if there wasn’t a troll of the week poppin in every week like clockwork to gum up the works.


  522. @Brahms

    “If you’d like other examples from Africa then look into Arab expansionism in Africa, 640-1900.”

    Arab expansionism? LOL. Hellooooooooooooo!!!!! You do realize that black africans, and your very own anthropologists consider arabs white don’t ya?


  523. @ Goldfire

    “Arab expansionism? LOL. Hellooooooooooooo!!!!! You do realize that black africans, and your very own anthropologists consider arabs white don’t ya?”

    Um…only when it comes to talking about their accomplishments, are Arabs “white”. When it comes to terrorism or anything else that’s negative, they’re kicked out of “The White Club” and are simply “dirty muds”.

    @ Private

    “Dag! This would be a nice blog if there wasn’t a troll of the week poppin in every week like clockwork to gum up the works.”

    Although it’s his house (and his rules), sometimes I DO wish Abagond would ban trolls. And I just mean the “broken record trolls”, who recycle the same drivel and clearly demonstrate that they are interested in doing nothing but creating distractions, by making excuses for the problems of whites.


  524. @ Brahms:

    You are the one not coming to grips with statistics. Interracial rapes are so rare in America that there are no firm numbers on them.

    The government DOJ numbers on it, for example, are based on SAMPLES of fewer than ten. Interracial rape is that rare. When whites read that they say that there are fewer than ten white-on-black rapes across the whole country. There are fewer than ten black-on-white rapes in the sample too but completely different thinking is applied to that. There they use the next-to-useless, asterisked DOJ numbers to cook up some laughable ratio, like that black men are 2000 times more likely to rape white women.

    Interracial rape is rare because America is highly segregated and rape is an acquaintance crime – rapists almost always rape someone they know.

    White men seem to have this huge hang-up on black men raping white women. It is very strange:

    1. It is not based on empirical data.

    2. Even when you point this out to them they twist the numbers back! They WANT to believe that black men are raping white women! What on earth for? Since when does anyone want to believe in a nightmare world like that?

    I mean if I like thought wolves were preying on small children and found out it was all cooked up by the media or something, I would be RELIEVED. I would not try to twist the facts back into believing that wolves were in fact eating children.

    This is sick and twisted stuff. Something is NOT right in their heads. Or maybe there is a Perfectly Logical Explanation that you can fill us in on.


  525. it’s the same old excuse that was used for lynching black men, the same tired excuse that’s been used for centuries…most white women are raped by white men and most black women are raped by black men, but for some reason like abagond said people want to fall into the “big black man,” rape myth…who jumps out of the bush and assaults the pure white woman, it’s very racist…and btw little known fact these same racists who argue that black men are out raping white women will never acknowledge the black women who are raped in prison by prison guards (majority of whom are white) yes, I’m researching it for one of my courses and white on black rape does happen. not only that but the sex trafficking is overwhelming women of color (black and latina women) but you NEVER hear about that… but as abagond said, most rape occurs between the same race because same races tend to associate more with eachother than across races in this country…


  526. Brahms is so busy scrambling for an excuse to validate white bigotry on account on the black man’s “voracious sexual appetite for pure, innocent white female flesh” that he’s resorting to “World Jewry” conspiracies. Pathetic.

    Meanwhile, black women remain in America’s perpetual blind spot when it comes to sexual violence.


  527. @Brahms

    Did Roots help black white relations?

    I’m intrigued with this question – “Roots”, in the most general sense, was a look at history and the slave trade following the descendents of a family, right?

    History, is not always positive as you know but, we look at things that happen in the past, to learn from them, to ensure that whatever mistakes were identified, are not perpetuated in the future.

    Ask yourself honestly Brahms, if the US is as progressive a country as you are trying to maintain, and there was no credence to the comments made by commentators on this blog, why would broadcasting a programme such as this, have a negative effect on black/white relations? Realisitically, people would be able to say ‘phew, can’t believe that happened X amount of years ago, thats SO far removed from the way things are now’ that it just cant be real’ wouldnt they?


  528. Demera – Roots was not an accurate depiction and it is not history. For an accurate picture, the movie could have shown that only a small minority (5%) of whites owned slaves; that poor whites were called “crackers” and often lived under worse conditions than slaves, that white indentured servants often were never freed, that the majority of black slaves were not whipped or treated harshly, that the slave ports, slave ships, accountants, sellers, and money handlers were not white but Jewish.
    The snatching of Koonta Kinte would not have been by whites but most likely other Africans or possibly Portuguese or Spanish but not American Whites.

    Haley plagiarized the “non-fiction” book Roots from a fiction book The African – this is NOT history.

    The main plagiarist was not even Haley but the Jewish author Murray Fisher (editor at Playboy magazine).

    The movie could have shed some light on the white slave trade by Arabs as well. Between the 16th and 19th century alone, 1 million plus whites were taken into slavery. Whites have a history of slavery too – that’s something that is not taught.

    In other words, the book/movie could have lessened the gap between black and white instead of widen it – but that would have defeated the purpose.

    PS: I always find it interesting when people call another poster a “troll” – it seems a troll is someone who disagrees.


  529. Abagond – the numbers are there in the Bureau of Justice Statistics report -which has been cited. Yes, rape is a rare occurrence and difficult to measure when using surveys (as opposed to looking at all victim reports). If you read the methodology of the study you will understand. Nevertheless, the data shows that blacks rape whites more than whites rape blacks. Are you claiming that the data is statistically insignificant? It is significant. The sample sizes were large and the victim reports were small – as was to be expected. Simply because, out of 10000 surveyed, only 10 reported a rape by a black (or other iteration) does not nullify the statistics. There were so few white on black rapes that the percentage was statistically ZERO; as opposed to 16.7% for black on white. I’m sorry you don’t like the statistics by they clearly show that more blacks rape whites than vice versa.


  530. Mack Lyons – you have libeled me by claiming that I am attempting to validate white bigotry. Please cite where I have shown bigotry.

    Gen –
    “I find it funny yet sad that it’s almost always somebody white who parrots this race war crap.”

    No, that would be a black man – Walter E Williams
    “The failure of civil rights leaders, people like Jackson and Sharpton, as well as politicians to vocally condemn black-on-white crime — and the relative silence of the news media in reporting it — is not simply a matter of double standards. It’s dangerous, for it contributes to a pile of racial kindling awaiting a racial arsonist to set it ablaze. I can’t think of better recruitment gifts for America’s racists, either white or black.”

    Walter E. Williams


  531. Roots was not an accurate depiction and it is not history.

    Would you say the same about Titanic? This is a fictionalised story based on a real situation of the Titanic. it is a made for Hollywood style movie which would have had far less impact if they hadnt made a storyline i.e. the situation between Kate Winslet and Leonardo diCaprio

    For an accurate picture, the movie could have shown that only a small minority (5%) of whites owned slaves;

    Brahms – I dont recall the movie ever saying ALL white people were slave owners. It merely showed individuals who were involved in the passaging of slaves and the households of the slaves and slave owners therein.

    that poor whites were called “crackers” and often lived under worse conditions than slaves, that white indentured servants often were never freed, that the majority of black slaves were not whipped or treated harshly, that the slave ports, slave ships, accountants, sellers, and money handlers were not white but Jewish.

    Come on now, you and I both know that this is NOT strictly true. If it were such a fallacy, why is it that black people in America have been fighting for equality ever since?This is highly documented – you really can’t refute this without it appearing you have an agenda for doing so.

    The snatching of Koonta Kinte would not have been by whites but most likely other Africans or possibly Portuguese or Spanish but not American Whites.

    Really!

    The movie could have shed some light on the white slave trade by Arabs as well.

    But the movie wasn’t about the white slave trade – i’m sure there must be other films that address this?

    As for the accusations of plagarism etc by Alex Haley, I have heard and read all about this, but this seems to be deviating from the point somewhat. To discredit the man himself does not mean that what he has written was based on fact.

    Why are you taking the burden of responsibility for absolving the white race from having participated in slavery? YOU are kidding yourself and I fear that you have discreted all of your previous comments to by responding in this way. There is a saying ‘scratch beneath the surface….’ and you have certainly proved that the veneer you tried to depict in your earlier posts was merely a way to derail the subject of this post.


  532. Demera – what specifically are you calling untrue?
    “that poor whites were called “crackers” and often lived under worse conditions than slaves, that white indentured servants often were never freed, that the majority of black slaves were not whipped or treated harshly, that the slave ports, slave ships, accountants, sellers, and money handlers were not white but Jewish.”

    “Come on now, you and I both know that this is NOT strictly true. If it were such a fallacy, why is it that black people in America have been fighting for equality ever since?This is highly documented – you really can’t refute this without it appearing you have an agenda for doing so.”

    I’ve told you why black people are fighting for equality – it is to break up white cohesion; they’ve been duped. They are taught that they don’t have freedom but they do. Blacks are a pawn; they’ve had equality for 50 years yet they still fight. Care to hazard a guess why, over that 50 years of freedom, black out of wedlock births have gone from 23 to 80 percent? Why black communities are morals fell after freedom? Lets see you try to blame that on white people.

    It is you who called Roots historical – yet it was a hoax and amazingly, you already knew that. I’m sorry you don’t like being called to task but that’s life. The Titanic was a love story, dealt with a boat sinking, and never CLAIMED to be factual; the importance of the two movies is barely comparable. Roots was portrayed as a factual piece (12 years of research by Haley – lie) yet the book itself was fiction and it gave the impression to viewers that whites are the historic oppressor (yet millions of whites have been captured and sold into slavery). And no, there are no movies about white slavery- and that is not at all surprising.

    If you don’t want the post “derailed” (which seems to mean anyone whose comment doesn’t share in the white “oppression” delusion) then don’t respond to me.

    Roots trailer

    I’ve asked this before and got no reply from anyone – How are whites oppressing blacks today?


  533. For what its worth I thought I’d relay a personal experience to highlight the monolithic racism in the black community . The divide between black and white is held and perpetuated mainly by blacks not whites. When MLK was shot, there was an outpouring or white sympathy; when a black was elected to run for president, 43% of whites voted for him (95% of blacks did).
    I attended grade school at a 60-40 (black to white) school. When Ronald Reagan was shot, an announcement was made over the speakers – what was the result of this announcement? Was there sorrow, anger, despair? No, there was cheering and laughter ( a raucous celebration by any definition) by the blacks (this made the local news); phrases like, ” MFer shouldna been in da hood’ were heard by me. My black friends told me I was “white on the outside and black on the inside” – not hard to see the racism there is it? Yet, I saw ZERO racism in other direction.
    So who are the racists again?


  534. @Brahms

    Demera – what specifically are you calling untrue

    “that poor whites were called “crackers” and often lived under worse conditions than slaves, that white indentured servants often were never freed, that the majority of black slaves were not whipped or treated harshly, that the slave ports, slave ships, accountants, sellers, and money handlers were not white but Jewish.”

    The fact that black slaves were not treated unfairly, the fact that you are using Jewish people as a scapegoat and the fact that you are doing this because although white in complexion, you dont see them as white. I dont doubt there were poor whites and that they lived in poverty but I sincerely and strongly refute that in contrast, and notice I say in contrast here, that they were treated as appallingly as the black slaves were. I know all about indentured slaves, particularly Irish ones too…You seem very knowledgeable about the poor whites of this time, is this because they are your descendents? Are you family still classed as ‘crackers?’

    Mostly Brahms, I am having trouble believing much of what you say and this is simply because, in few sentences, there seems to be something else underlying. I feel that it is more your own personal stance that you are putting forward here and that you are taking historic occurrences and speeches out of context to support your ideology. Unfortunately I can hear you coming cos the shackles of disgust and guilt have clearly followed you all your life are loud and clear but you resent it and throw it out there trying to blame some other oppressed individuals to make your point. Your self loathing is truly saddening – that and the fact that you are trying to ‘whitewash’ history with your own kind of fable.

    It is you who called Roots historical – yet it was a hoax and amazingly, you already knew that. I’m sorry you don’t like being called to task but that’s life

    Here is actually what I said “Roots”, in the most general sense, was a look at history and the slave trade following the descendents of a family, right?

    *Sigh* I’m pretty sure it does not say that it is a factual historical account and that I didnt say it in my original post either. *Rolls eyes* A hoax was it – all those cowards in white sheets were just another part of the fairy tale that was being spun here was it!

    Blacks are a pawn; they’ve had equality for 50 years yet they still fight

    Equality from what exactly Brahms….After all, werent you trying to say that the only thing holding black people back is themselves? Yet in the statement above you are clearly alluding to the fact that there has been some kind of inequality and injustice perpetrated against black people that they have had to rail against…..


  535. Looks at Brahms’ comments and thinks to himself, “Man, this is painful.”


  536. Not much to respond to here. Claims that I have some underlying reason for commenting etc., nonsense; but if it makes you feel better I’m sure you’ll believe it.

    Brotherwolf- Your statement makes no sense. Some kind of personal attack I guess.

    Demera:

    “Blacks are a pawn; they’ve had equality for 50 years yet they still fight”

    “Equality from what exactly Brahms….After all, werent you trying to say that the only thing holding black people back is themselves? Yet in the statement above you are clearly alluding to the fact that there has been some kind of inequality and injustice perpetrated against black people that they have had to rail against…..”

    Jim Crow et al of course. There were laws discriminating against blacks which should have been abolished and were. What are blacks fighting for now? How are whites oppressing blacks now? Does anyone want to take a stab at that? It seems a pretty easy question since all you talk about is how white people are causing you problems – lets hear how.


  537. @Brahms

    “What are blacks fighting for now? How are whites oppressing blacks now? Does anyone want to take a stab at that? ”

    Disparities in unemployment rates:

    http://www.racismreview.com/blog/2010/04/28/black-unemployment-in-the-u-s-so-bad-the-un-is-investigating/

    Who does all the hiring?

    Disparities in pay, even when controlled for education and experience:

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30437468/ns/business-careers/t/racial-disparities-persist-higher-paying-jobs/#.TsHABlYjVrM

    Who decides on compensation?

    Disparities in arrests for nonviolent drug offenses:

    http://apublicdefender.com/2007/12/05/racial-disparities-in-sentencing-for-drug-offenses/

    Who runs the criminal justice system?

    Disparities in who gets the death penalty (depending on the race of the victim):

    https://death.rdsecure.org/article.php?id=54

    Who typically are the judges, prosecutors, and sit on juries?

    Do you need more evidence Brahms, or the does the FACT that White people run this country and control everything that goes on in it (political, economically, and socially) still escape you?


  538. My black friends told me I was “white on the outside and black on the inside” – not hard to see the racism there is it? Yet, I saw ZERO racism in other direction.

    Here’s an anecdote from my school years(elementary), this is real folks! I was called ‘nigger’, ‘spook’, ‘jungle bunny’ and ‘spearchucker’ on a daily basis. Well the black children didn’t call me this as there was only a couple of others in the school. I saw zero racism from them, however I saw 90 % racism from the white children. But I suppose you will not see the racism in that, so be it. I wonder at you having any black friends at all. They probably didn’t see the ‘real’ you. The ones that did were kerchief heads to start.


  539. “Jim Crow et al of course. There were laws discriminating against blacks which should have been abolished and were. What are blacks fighting for now? How are whites oppressing blacks now? Does anyone want to take a stab at that? It seems a pretty easy question since all you talk about is how white people are causing you problems – lets hear how.”

    In the first place there were ANTI-discrimination laws signed that was supposed to end discrimination. In the second place even though those laws passed DISCRIMINATION AND RACISM CONTINUED. In what way you asked? See MK82’s response for more details.


  540. @ Brahms

    I will do a post on the DOJ numbers themselves and break it down. You are hardly the only one who misreads them according to the Black Brute stereotype.


  541. @ Brahms:

    Points to keep in mind:

    1. The letter of the law is no longer racist in most cases but America remains almost as segregated in housing and schooling as it was in Jim Crow times. The difference between white and black unemployment, even when you take education into account, remains where it was in the 1960s.

    2. Laws are only as good as they are enforced. Racial steering, for example, is still extremely common even though it is against the law.

    3. Whites have found ways to undermine the law, like streaming in schools or ways to make juries whiter than they should be.

    4. The courts do not work well unless you have money. In a country where whites have a hundred times more wealth than blacks the courts will heavily work in their favour. And even apart from that:

    5. The reforms of the 1960s left the police and the courts largely untouched. Racial profiling, for example, is LEGAL. It is nearly impossible to prove in a court of law that the courts are racist – the Supreme Court has made sure of that. Drug laws are written and enforced in such a way that blacks are far more likely to wind up in prison even though whites use drugs just as much.

    Not to say that the civil rights reforms were useless. Hardly. But neither did they wipe the country clean of racism and its effects.


  542. @ Brahms

    That you did not notice white-on-black racism at your school is hardly surprising. First, it is completely in keeping with your comments here. Second, people will be far quicker to notice racism against their own race than that against others.


  543. Hernieth said:

    “. I wonder at you having any black friends at all. They probably didn’t see the ‘real’ you. The ones that did were kerchief heads to start.”

    I thought the same thing.


  544. @ MK82: Thanks for the links.


  545. What a bunch of nonsense. You are all basically saying the same thing: Whites are racist against Blacks because Whites are more successful and do better in general. What else could it be besides….RACISM? Whine. I suppose racism explains Black out-of-wedlock birth rates as well? White racism is causing Black promiscuity – amazing.

    It seems we’ll have White racism in this country until blacks reach the exact same social and economic status as whites – until then, they are being kept down by the white man.
    Keep complaining and being antisocial, I’m sure you’ll get there some day with that brilliant strategy.


  546. Concerning White on Black racism in my school – no it was not present; just as it is not present in the vast majority of integrated schools. I saw multiple fights, and when it was a white vs black – there was a huge crowd of blacks surrounding the fight, chanting racial slurs. You people are living in a make believe world of oppression – but it serves you well doesn’t it?


  547. Another example of Black antisocial/racist behavior. About anything that’s considered “black”. Why do Blacks insist on naming their children non-White names? Dressing in non-White clothes? Changing their cars to look non-White? Speaking non-White? Etc. ad nauseam. Ponder that. Must be more White racism in effect.


  548. @ Brahms

    “What a bunch of nonsense. You are all basically saying the same thing: Whites are racist against Blacks because Whites are more successful and do better in general. What else could it be besides….RACISM? Whine. I suppose racism explains Black out-of-wedlock birth rates as well? White racism is causing Black promiscuity – amazing.
    It seems we’ll have White racism in this country until blacks reach the exact same social and economic status as whites – until then, they are being kept down by the white man.Keep complaining and being antisocial, I’m sure you’ll get there some day with that brilliant strategy.”

    Thanks for exposing yourself for the racist troll that you are. Instead of presenting factual information to counter what Abagond, Brothawolf, et. al have stated in regards to systematic WHITE RACISM, you dismiss what has been written and  equate to “complaining and being antisocial” (because of course, YOUR opinion is more valid than ours).

    “I’m sure you’ll get there some day with that brilliant strategy.”

    It actually is a brilliant strategy. White people didn’t end Jim Crow in the South and its more sophisticated twin in the North out of the goodness of their hearts. De facto segregation ended because Black people were COMPLAINING and BEING ANTISOCIAL (marching, boycotting, being arrested, etc.).

    As and for out-of-wedlock birth rates. Blacks out-of-wedlock rates have been on a decline in the last number of years, but guess which race’s rates have been exploding, that right WHITE PEOPLE’S. Would you happen to have an explanation for this? Let me guess, they have been listening to hip-hop and influenced by “Black culture” too much?

    “About anything that’s considered “black”. Why do Blacks insist on naming their children non-White names? Dressing in non-White clothes? Changing their cars to look non-White? Speaking non-White? Etc. ad nauseam. Ponder that. Must be more White racism in effect.”

    I don’t know, maybe because Black people ARE NOT White?!?!? Why should I name my children with Anglo-Saxon European names? I am not European, my ancestor ARE NOT from Europe. White people love to scream that this is a free country: shouldn’t I be free to do what I want (baring that I am not breaking the law)?? Or it is that I am only free if White people agree with what I am doing? What is dressing non-White, what is changing cars to look non-White, what is speaking non-White? Specifically on the last question, do all White people speak standard English? Are all White people educated??


  549. @ Brahms

    No one here said that out-of-wedlock births are caused by racism.


  550. @ Brahms

    If it were just a matter of white success then the inequalities would fall along class lines. Yet even when you take class into account, you still see the same inequalities. For example, blacks are at least twice as likely to be out of work than whites even if you look just at those Americans with university degrees.


  551. “About anything that’s considered “black”. Why do Blacks insist on naming their children non-White names? Dressing in non-White clothes? Changing their cars to look non-White? Speaking non-White? Etc. ad nauseam. Ponder that. Must be more White racism in effect.””

    I’m not sure how you make a car look non-white. Kindly explain. When Billy Gibbons drives Cadzilla is he trying to look non-white? And I could have sworn that a great deal of the custom car owners and fans I’ve run across are white. Someone should tell them they should stop modifying their vehicles. It’s not a “white” thing to do.

    But as far as your other questions, if someone is not white why should they have a “white” name? Are there a lot of Anglo-Saxon or otherwise European descended Americans walking around with names that indicate African heritage? Are you similarly concerned and upset with the decidedly non-European names of East-Asian and South-Asian Americans or is is just black Americans that incite your ire?

    But it’s even deeper than that. Why is it that some whites are so threatened by the mere existence of black culture that they feel the need to deny its existence or stigmatize it? That’s the real issue raised here.


  552. @ MK82

    “Why should I name my children with Anglo-Saxon European names? I am not European, my ancestor ARE NOT from Europe. White people love to scream that this is a free country: shouldn’t I be free to do what I want (baring that I am not breaking the law)?? Or it is that I am only free if White people agree with what I am doing? What is dressing non-White, what is changing cars to look non-White, what is speaking non-White? Specifically on the last question, do all White people speak standard English? Are all White people educated??

    Excellent response! Well-stated…
    I wanted to add something regarding names: White doctors used to urge and encourage black women to give their children names like “Syphillis”, Ghonnorhea”, “Venereal”, and various other foul, disgusting, disease-based identifiers. Small wonder that names that sounded tribal or ‘ethnic’ became more popular and palatable! That, and the fact that it’s a “free country” makes the question regarding names a stupid, racist, ‘straw man’ non-argument posed by yet another vacuous troll who is only here to disrupt, derail, and deny.


  553. Oregon is a paragon of fairness when it comes to housing. Here’s an article from just this year:

    http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2011/08/crying_racism_on_rentals.html

    For that matter, up until 1979 or so, there were racist laws in place on deeds for land and housing – they were listed in the CCRs (Codes, Covenants, and Restrictions) and specifically stated: “This property shall not be deeded to those of Chinese, Japanese, Negro, or Latin descent.” Native Americans didn’t even rate mention at that time, due to the tribal land lawsuits that were prevalent.
    But no, there’s OBVIOUSLY NO RACISM THERE… *SMDH*


  554. MK 82

    How am I a racist?

    “I don’t know, maybe because Black people ARE NOT White?!?!? Why should I name my children with Anglo-Saxon European names? I am not European, my ancestor ARE NOT from Europe. White people love to scream that this is a free country: shouldn’t I be free to do what I want (baring that I am not breaking the law)?? Or it is that I am only free if White people agree with what I am doing? What is dressing non-White, what is changing cars to look non-White, what is speaking non-White? Specifically on the last question, do all White people speak standard English? Are all White people educated??”

    So you’re OK not assimilating; you want to be African not European. Yet, you whine about blacks being discriminated against and exclusion (housing, schools) is often cited – can you see the hypocrisy? If you want to be African and not assimilate in White culture then stop complaining about not assimilating. It is blacks who are creating their own separation – and they’re proud of it. You can’t have it both ways.


  555. Abagond

    “If it were just a matter of white success then the inequalities would fall along class lines. Yet even when you take class into account, you still see the same inequalities. For example, blacks are at least twice as likely to be out of work than whites even if you look just at those Americans with university degrees.”

    There is institutionalized (legal) advantages to Blacks when seeking employment and advancements. Remember the firefighter fiasco where no blacks passed the test to advance? They still advanced if I remember correctly.
    Again, college educated Blacks being unemployed is not de facto racism; who knows why they are unemployed. We already have affirmative action and quotas – what else can possibly be done to appease you? Are dark skinned Bangledeshies having these same problems? No. They chose to assimilate – oh the horror speaking white (they probably even watch Friends without being ostracized).


  556. Shady Grady

    “But as far as your other questions, if someone is not white why should they have a “white” name? Are there a lot of Anglo-Saxon or otherwise European descended Americans walking around with names that indicate African heritage? Are you similarly concerned and upset with the decidedly non-European names of East-Asian and South-Asian Americans or is is just black Americans that incite your ire?

    But it’s even deeper than that. Why is it that some whites are so threatened by the mere existence of black culture that they feel the need to deny its existence or stigmatize it? That’s the real issue raised here.”

    I hope everybody understands that some blacks have chosen to assimilate – I’m talking about the majority that hasn’t – you people.

    Cars – are you black? You’re telling me that blacks don’t go for a certain look when customizing their cars? No, not all (always have to add that). Have you ever seen a white guy driving a 76 Cutlass with gigantic wheels?

    Names – Everybody besides blacks takes on European sounding names – its called assimilation. Only first or second generation Asians have Asian names. If a race/ethnicity is not taking on the names of the culture in which they immigrated to -they are not assimilating – not part of the “melting pot” and the country is in trouble (that would be us).

    Whites are not threatened – it is you who is complaining about discrimination yet it is you who doesn’t want to assimilate.


  557. Sepulchura

    Your Oregon story is a joke – here’s the real reason they initiated their lame study. There were no masses of blacks complaining of discrimination it was simply –

    “The city paid the Fair Housing Council of Oregon, a nonprofit, $19,000 to conduct the testing last summer. It is part of an analysis Portland must complete every five years to show it’s trying to reduce housing discrimination and to keep $9 million to $11 million in annual federal grants.”

    You have the power of the federal govt on your side looking everywhere they can for racism and you still complain about being treated unfairly,


  558. @ Brahms

    Circular discussion with Brahms starting in three, two, one……

    “ So you’re OK not assimilating; you want to be African not European. “

    No I do not want to be African, I am a Black American of African descent, just like you are a White American of European descent. You need to get this crazy idea out of your head that American = White European. Just in case you need a history lesson Black people have been in this country just as long as White people have, and Native Americans even longer! If it wasn’t for the contributions of People of Color (POC) to this society (economically, politically, and socially) AMERICA WOULD NOT BE THE NATION THAT IT IS. Why is it that we need to assimilate? What gives White people the authority to demand this? Is this a sense of “entitlement” that you feel? But again, Whites are the first one to start yelling about “freedom” and “democracy”……

    “Yet, you whine about blacks being discriminated against and exclusion (housing, schools) is often cited – can you see the hypocrisy? “f you want to be African and not assimilate in White culture then stop complaining about not assimilating.”

    So it is hypocrisy to expect White people to treat their fellow Americans as equals? It is hypocrisy to expect White people to live by this “freedom” and “democracy” crap that this nation was supposedly built on, and that White people use justify the belief that “makes America they envy of the world”??? So in your mind the only way for Blacks to get some measure of respect is to surrender who we are and as you put it “assimilate in White culture”, but WHITES HAVE TO SURRENDER NOTHING to get this same respect from POC? That is a fair society in your mind, and you wonder why I call you a racist?????

    “It is blacks who are creating their own separation – and they’re proud of it. You can’t have it both ways.”

    So all of these ALL WHITE neighborhoods, schools, jobs, clubs, etc. etc. etc. are created by Black people? No, it is WHITES who can’t have it both ways: you control all the economic, political, and social levers of power in this country, demand that people of color surrender who we are (assimilate) to MAKE YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE, then have the nerve to turn around and call our society fair and just.

    Whiteness is indeed a sickness…..


  559. MK 82

    “Why is it that we need to assimilate? “

    I’m sorry but if you chose to be separate then you will not be included (makes since right?) -plenty of blacks will be included but not you (you call those blacks Oreos maybe). We’re not racist, we’re nationalistic and feel we actually DO have an American Culture (a culture made up of various races yet sharing customs, beliefs, language syntax, heroes, given names, religion). I’m sorry you don’t want to be a part of your country. You want a separate black America – fine -start working on it (but then you’ll have to stop complaining about whites so much – where’s the fun in that?).

    “So in your mind the only way for Blacks to get some measure of respect is to surrender who we are and as you put it “assimilate in White culture”, but WHITES HAVE TO SURRENDER NOTHING to get this same respect from POC? That is a fair society in your mind, and you wonder why I call you a racist?????”

    Whites have already given much – safe schools, neighborhoods, city streets. They offered their hand and you rejected it because you didn’t want to “act white” – I’m sorry if you don’t like me but this country was 89% white a few decades ago- shall all whites start acting black?

    “demand that people of color surrender who we are (assimilate) to MAKE YOU FEEL COMFORTABLE, then have the nerve to turn around and call our society fair and just.”

    Sorry, but if you don’t want to assimilate you can’t complain – you did fight for it in the 60s – remember? School integration, housing integration????? Yet, you don’t want to be part of white America so why in the hell would you want to live in a White neighborhood or apartment building? Seems to me, you’d be much happier in an all black town.


  560. Let me give you a very simple example to show why your non-assimilating idea doesn’t work. This is just one of thousands of problems. When you shake hands with a black guy, you do the black handshake. What do you do when you shake hands with a white guy? Do you kowtow and do a regular handshake or do you try to give him a black handshake. Pretend that the black handshake is actually African – problem solved – in Africa I would do the black handshake and an African in American would do a white hand shake. But you want some quasi-African culture in America and expect the majority to kowtow to you – it is you who must assimilate not me (I’m in the majority). That, or you can separate fully, get your slavery reparations and go away.

    BTW – do you expect Muslims to assimilate or are you OK with them continuing their culture unchanged?


  561. Have you ever seen a white guy driving a 76 Cutlass with gigantic wheels?

    Yep:

    http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3016606/1984-oldsmobile-cutlass-supreme

    Maybe it isn’t a 76, but a cutlass with big wheels nonetheless. This wigga is presenting! Or is it representing? He even has all the stereotypical hand gestures down pat!

    I’m talking about the majority that hasn’t – you people.

    Is that a bad thing, not suffering from crackeritis? Where else would you get your jollies, castigating a bunch of non-conforming negroes on a blog you bellicose fool.

    Everybody besides blacks takes on European sounding names – its called assimilation.

    Take out the ‘imilation’ and what do you have left? Ass!

    Whites are not threatened – it is you who is complaining about discrimination yet it is you who doesn’t want to assimilate.

    Are you a representative of the Borg?

    There is institutionalized (legal) advantages to Blacks when seeking employment and advancements.

    Where? Prison? That seems to be the biggest place where blacks enjoy the legal system in the States. You can get a ‘promotion’ to the kitchen from the laundry. If you are lucky, you may get an extra meal!

    who knows why they are unemployed.

    Only the Shadow knows!

    We already have affirmative action and quotas – what else can possibly be done to appease you?

    How about some malt liquor and ham hocks since you resort to asinine stereotypes?

    Yet, you whine about blacks being discriminated against and exclusion (housing, schools) is often cited – can you see the hypocrisy?

    Not really, but I can see the stupidity in that contention!

    How am I a racist?

    Based upon the reams of bull turd you type, it is quite obvious you are racist. Either that you are just plain clueless!


  562. @ Brahms

    “We’re not racist, we’re nationalistic and feel we actually DO have an American Culture (a culture made up of various races yet sharing customs, beliefs, language syntax, heroes, given names, religion).”

    Didn’t you say previously “If you want to be African and not assimilate in White culture then stop complaining about not assimilating.” Are you backpedaling, or just pretending that you didn’t imply that White culture = American culture??

    “Whites have already given much – safe schools, neighborhoods, city streets.”

    Really?? I though those PUBLIC services were provided by tax payers, of all colors, or maybe in your messed up mind the only people who pay taxes are White people….

    But I bet you didn’t have a problem with the situation that existed until the early 1970s, a situation in which Black taxpayers were denied access to schools, libraries, government jobs, and other resources that THEIR OWN TAXES paid for!!!

    “Seems to me, you’d be much happier in an all black town.”

    I would be happier, I wouldn’t have to deal with idiots such as yourself. However, one of the MAJOR goals of the civil rights movement (which you choose to ignore) was to get BLACKS ACCESS TO THE SAME RESOURCES (jobs, education, public services) as Whites, because of course White people monopolize ALL OF THESE THINGS. So until I have the same access to these resources, that my ancestors slaved, fought, and died for, you will continue to hear me, and people who think like me, complain!!!


  563. @ Brahms

    “BTW – do you expect Muslims to assimilate or are you OK with them continuing their culture unchanged?”

    The more you write, the more you expose yourself to be an ignorant twit. Muslims are followers of Islam which is a religion. Muslims are and can be of any race or ethnicity. Would you question make sense if it was:

    “do you expect Christians to assimilate or are you OK with them continuing their culture unchanged?”


  564. Brahms,

    I have to say that farts sound more intelligent than you right now. lol


  565. “Didn’t you say previously “If you want to be African and not assimilate in White culture then stop complaining about not assimilating.” Are you backpedaling, or just pretending that you didn’t imply that White culture = American culture??”
    Yes, white culture = American culture; but you don’t have to be white to have white culture. Its only white because Europeans are white and Europeans founded the country and made up about 90% of the country until recently. You think America has many cultures -you may be right but I disagree that its a good thing and I’ll fight to reverse that course.

    “Really?? I though those PUBLIC services were provided by tax payers, of all colors, or maybe in your messed up mind the only people who pay taxes are White people….”

    No idea what you’re talking about – blacks make the streets dangerous, that was my implication.

    “But I bet you didn’t have a problem with the situation that existed until the early 1970s, a situation in which Black taxpayers were denied access to schools, libraries, government jobs, and other resources that THEIR OWN TAXES paid for!!!”

    Not knowing, at the time, that blacks, upon receiving full representation, would take that equality and use it to fuel black rebellion against me – -I would have thought it an injustice. Not knowing that blacks disliked me for my color, I would have included them in my “world” and fought with them against injustice. Now, in retrospect, segregation would have been much better for me – that’s what happens when liberals wake up (and many are).

    “BLACKS ACCESS TO THE SAME RESOURCES”

    We tried that you moron – it was called “separate but equal”. But that wasn’t good enough; you needed assimilation. Well here it is, all the assimilation you could ask for and what do you say? F$#%# assimilation, I’m black, I don’t want that white sh*^ – I don’t want their names, their food, their clothes, their language – but I’ll take the women.


  566. MK 43

    “The more you write, the more you expose yourself to be an ignorant twit. Muslims are followers of Islam which is a religion. Muslims are and can be of any race or ethnicity. Would you question make sense if it was:”

    You completely comprehended my allusion to Muslims as any generic person of a vastly differing culture who immigrates to this country (unless I hope you did). So good show chum, you’re really smart.


  567. I’m beginning to think that most here would prefer a new and improved “separate but equal” – how am I doing? You don’t want to be involved with white culture too much so – what other solution is there? Maybe this is something we can come together on in mutual understanding and trust. Take all the ethnocentric blacks and let them have their own cities; the normal blacks can stay an assimilate. Word. Or maybe you’re going to say – “no way man, make the white people go away, why should I go?” Ok, maybe we can work on that as well; just trying to keep you happy like a good white boy.


  568. @ Brahms:

    Do you think most White Americans are racist? If not, when was the last time, if ever, that most of them were?


  569. Abagond – pre-1960, I’d say most whites were racist. They didn’t like blacks and perhaps they had a good reason for that, I don’t know. We are taught that blacks are innocent and its simply ignorant white racism that’s to blame. But is it that simple? Whites didn’t like it when the Irish came over either but it didn’t take long for the Irish to assimilate and become like any other white. Same is happening with Hispanics, Asians, Indians – they all want to assimilate (slight problem with HIspanics but only because of numbers) and will. But with blacks it was different, whites didn’t think it would work and they were right; blacks don’t want to assimilate.

    How long was it after the Civil Rights Act 1964 that we had our first black instigated race riot? 1967 Detroit maybe. So with equality, without equality, doesn’t matter. Prior to this race riot, there were other incidents of whites going in to black neighborhoods to avenge a black on white rape usually. So maybe the whites had a long history with black/white conflict and had a very valid justification for their skepticism.

    I’ve always wondered what type of black parent would send their kids into an all white school in 1957. Were they forced or coerced in some way?


  570. Abagond – Its also interesting to look a group that never assimilated. Orthodox Jews. They live in their own neighborhoods and try very hard to not even talk to a white. Why don’t blacks just do that? Marcus Garvey type stuff; you leave us alone, we leave you alone (actually we already leave you alone).
    I think this is happening – look at Atlanta, Birmingham, or about any downtown area in the South – not too many whites. The difference between Hasidics and blacks is that Hasidics stick it to whites through rental properties and dishonest business practices; blacks do it through violence. I don’t know if you followed the Hassidic slaughter house in Iowa story – talk about screwing over the whites.

    Orthodox Jews and Black Ethnocentrics – I have no sympathy for the Orthodox, or any Jew that is ethnocentrc but I do still have sympathy for blacks. I can think of no more dire a lot in life than to be a black man trying to do the right thing – his own people will reject him for it. Shame on you.


  571. I’m sure the state of white-black relations (prior to 1960) is not too much different than it is today. I’ll take the word of W.E.B. Du Bois

    “In the city of Philadelphia the increasing number of bold and daring crimes committed by Negroes [since 1890] has focused the city on this subject. There is a widespread feeling that something is wrong with a race that is responsible for so much crime, and that strong remedies are called for. One has but to visit the corridors of the public buildings, when the courts are in session, to realize the part played in law-breaking by the Negro.”
    Book: The Philadelphia Negro – 1898 (pg. 241)


  572. @ Brahms:

    So like it is all right to deny blacks equal rights because of how their cars look?

    First, since when are political rights based on cultural assimilation? I mean from a legal or moral point of view, not from a bigoted or racist point of view. I thought it was based on citizenship and a common humanity.

    Second, Black Americans are vastly more like White Americans culturally than any Asian immigrant could ever hope to be. Your assimilationist rhetoric is just a thin cover for your anti-black racism.


  573. Abogond

    1. “So like it is all right to deny blacks equal rights because of how their cars look?”
    I was making a point about blacks not wanting to assimilate of course.

    2. Political rights? Blacks have all the political rights whites have; more actually. Even so, they chose not to assimilate – that’s the point. I believe I stated already that any legal discrimination based on race is wrong (which is why quotas, affirmative action, race based scholarships, etc., is wrong).

    3. Asians are far more assimilated and similar to whites, beyond doubt this is true. You may be referring to first generation Asians which is not really germane to the topic. Blacks are not first generation Africans – but if you’d like to compare apples to apples then you should compare 1st generation Africans and 1st generation Asians to whites.


  574. @ Brahms:

    You justified discrimination based on a lack of assimilation:

    ” it is you who is complaining about discrimination yet it is you who doesn’t want to assimilate.”

    Discrimination means a lack of equal rights in regard to housing, employment, education and so on. You are excusing that lack of equal rights because of a lack of assimilation by blacks. An example you gave were how their cars looked. This is the bizarro argument YOU made.


  575. There is no discrimination and no lack of equal rights. There is racism for sure on both sides. You are more than welcome to present examples of white racism by individuals and I will present the same in the inverse but that is not discrimination with a capital D. To prove discrimination by whites you’ll have to show examples of something systemic. Showing how blacks make less money than whites is not proof of discrimination any more than showing 80% black out-of-wedlock birth rates is discrimination. There was discrimination under Jim Crow, that’s history.

    Housing – no discrimination, blacks can buy a house just as a white can. In fact, the banks were giving out loans to almost any black that wanted one not too long ago – this was a govt program. You have all kinds of govt rent and mortgage assistance.

    Employment – do you know what percentage of govt jobs are held by blacks? You have quotas as well and blacks often get preferential hiring.

    Education – what ever do you mean? Affirmative action ring a bell? Or are you referring to the poor state of black undergrad public education? I went to a majority black public school – the problem is not the schools, its the students. Blacks don’t value education, in fact they have names for black kids that try hard in school – Uncle Tom.


  576. @Brahms,

    Other than school as you mentioned earlier, what other dealings/involvement do you have in your adult life with the minority groups that you resent i.e. black people and Jewish?

    Are your ‘comments’ merely from and observers POV or are you somehow reluctanlty immersed and in turn excluded from these communities?


  577. I am done, Brahms is a lost cause (totally believes that all of the evils White have committed and still commit are justified). This person has the nerve to say that White race riots were done to “avenge rapes committed by Black men against White women.” I think the post “The poison of White American History” applies directly to him…


  578. @ Brahms

    “I’m black, I don’t want that white sh*^ – I don’t want their names, their food, their clothes, their language – but I’ll take the women”

    LMAO, the true reason why you are here has finally exposes itself…..


  579. MK82

    I’ve said it before, they almost always end up in black men’s pants, I think I even said it in this very same thread. It’s a little depressing if you stop and think about it too long.


  580. Demera

    No special dealings with minorities. I work in a field that deals with the public.

    I don’t resent either group you mentioned; I deal with individuals not races, in my mind. That’s a good way to differentiate between a true racist and a realist BTW.


  581. MK 82 and Gen. That was a bit of a joke but I see you’re not denying it. Care to get into a little? Would you personally date or have relations with a white woman? Let see how serious you are about your ethnocentrism. For me, I have and would had relations with black women. These women acted white so you’d probably call them Aunt Thomasenas.

    How easy the live’s of blacks would be if they simply assimilated like almost every other race; that, or actually separate. Yet, ethnocentric blacks want some hybrid of that – to be separate yet beneficiaries of white tax dollars and govt enforced advantage.


  582. Demera – correction. I do actually resent Hassidic Jews who have isolated themselves, this is true, and I also resent a certain type of black ethnocentrist as mentioned above. If you can think of another race/ethnicity/religion that has chosen to isolate while, at the same time, dealing dishonestly or from a competitive position with their host race, I’ll probably resent them too – ha, just thought of one, Gypsies.


  583. @ Brahms:

    White Americans are extremely ethnocentric. They also choose to isolate themselves, at least from blacks, even middle-class ones. At the same time they deal dishonestly with blacks or from a competitive position. So by your reasoning blacks SHOULD resent whites,


  584. I wouldn’t bother , i were you abagond. This random logic is just Intellectualization of his basest desires , and i don’t think it would matter much pointing out his logical flaws.

    He finally admitted what was the core of his perspective by letting slip those two words: “host race”. As soon as you admit that there is a race, a category of chosen humans, that is hosting all the others, everything that he has been saying start to make sense.


  585. Abagond – the majority group cannot isolate itself. You’re back to this idea that whites should assimilate to black culture. Whites practice the mores of the culture so are the default. Surely, America has A culture that is the default?


  586. JGreyden

    Please expound on your thoughts about host race. Is there not a host race in Japan, China, India, Tibet, on, and on.

    It seems you think you’ve “got me” – lets hear it.


  587. MK 82
    WHAT EVILS DO WHITES COMMIT?!

    “(totally believes that all of the evils White have committed and still commit are justified)”

    After Emancipation, it appears that blacks almost immediately began to be a thorn in the side of civil society.

    W.E.B. Du Bois

    “In the city of Philadelphia the increasing number of bold and daring crimes committed by Negroes [since 1890] has focused the city on this subject. There is a widespread feeling that something is wrong with a race that is responsible for so much crime, and that strong remedies are called for. One has but to visit the corridors of the public buildings, when the courts are in session, to realize the part played in law-breaking by the Negro.”
    Book: The Philadelphia Negro – 1898 (pg. 241)

    I don’t think any legal racism is justified; I did not believe Apartheid was justified. I would like an honest evaluation of black-white relations and a look at feasibility. I notice that blacks and whites get on quite well in the rural setting but no in the urban. Anyone care to hazard a guess why?


  588. If you can think of another race/ethnicity/religion that has chosen to isolate while, at the same time, dealing dishonestly or from a competitive position with their host race, I’ll probably resent them too – ha, just thought of one, Gypsies.

    Gypsies – Do you mean travellers – Irish people? I dont live in the US so not sure what is meant by the term Gypsy there. Are Gypsies treated in the same way as Crackers? – maybe you could feel an affinity here if you thought about it…

    For me, I have and would had relations with black women. These women acted white so you’d probably call them Aunt Thomasenas.

    How does somebody ‘act’ white? I certainly wouldnt be calling them any names but I would question their sanity, particularly if you started harping on about things the way you do on here, dear oh dearie me….Nothing turns a woman off more than a man that comes across as bitter and insecure in terms of their interactions – albeit extremely limited by the sounds of it, with other ethnic groups. ….

    There are always gonna be factions of society that choose not to mix or are unawares of the cultures surrounding them whilst others are fascinated and embrace the ‘differences’ and are open to experience this. This is life, people and HUMAN NATURE. Seriously, how do you cope in day to day life i.e. within an organisation where the infrastructure is very hierachial i.e. managers converse with senior personnel and say factory workers getting on and going for a beer afterwards? Maybe you’re coming on too strong that in itself is off putting


  589. @ Demerera, MK82, Herneith, Brothawolf and Gen:

    LMFAO at a racist tool who has serious comprehension issues – I cite a specific example, and his response is “It’s a joke”, yet this turd expects us to buy his out-of-context quotes by W.E.B. DuBois. :roll:

    The REAL joke is the self-proclaimed ‘public employee’ who can’t read, much less spell, properly! :cool:


  590. This is seriously getting old not to mention way off topic. I’m dedicating a troll post just for you, Brahmsy boy.


  591. “I hope everybody understands that some blacks have chosen to assimilate – I’m talking about the majority that hasn’t – you people.”

    Most Black Americans have roots that go back much further than many whites-especially so-called ethnic whites. Black Americans have no old country to return to, no language of their own to use. One can make an excellent case that Blacks are more “American” than anyone else. So perhaps you ought to be trying to be more American-that is Black. =)

    “Cars – are you black? You’re telling me that blacks don’t go for a certain look when customizing their cars? No, not all (always have to add that). Have you ever seen a white guy driving a 76 Cutlass with gigantic wheels?”

    I thought you were being facetious before but now you’re just being stupid.
    There is a HUGE predominantly white subculture of customized cars and hot rods. Quick-go to these sites and tell them that by customizing their cars-adding supercharged engines, cutting them down, using outrageous colors,wheels, tires, etc they are not living up to “whiteness”. Let us know how that works for you.

    http://www.ckdeluxemag.com/rods/

    http://www.roddersjournal.com/

    “Names – Everybody besides blacks takes on European sounding names – its called assimilation. Only first or second generation Asians have Asian names. If a race/ethnicity is not taking on the names of the culture in which they immigrated to -they are not assimilating – not part of the “melting pot” and the country is in trouble (that would be us).”

    Hmm. And here I am working with non-Black American citizens with such European sounding names as Gopalakrishna or Khodr. Maybe I’ll let them know that they need to name their children names like Becky or John and not Anoushka or Jagannathy. I’m sure they will be happy to take my unsolicited advice. After all they can’t truly be happy making the six figure salaries they do-they need European names!!! The country depends on it!!

    “Whites are not threatened – it is you who is complaining about discrimination yet it is you who doesn’t want to assimilate.”

    Newsflash. I am not of European descent. There is nothing special about being of European descent. I don’t wish to be nor will I pretend that I want to be of European descent. There is nothing in the law which says this country is only for whites. I know that must be something which causes you great pain but that’s life.


  592. @Sepultra and Bulanik

    Brahms came on here to ‘drop knowledge’, to tell black people in the US where they had been going wrong!. He states that his comments are not ‘racist’ but ‘realistic’ but the only interactions with POC he seems to have had, have been with people at school so I do question the ‘reality’ he refers to. I fear he has been reading too much of the tabloids…

    BTW Sepultra – how do you get the little icon with the rolling eyes effect?


  593. Brahms,

    I have only one question to ask you. Then, I’m done because we’ve moved off topic. It’s a simple yes or no question. No essays. No statistics. No reports. Just a simple answer. Be honest with us and yourself when answering. Don’t tell us the answer we expect to read.

    Do you want to be black?


  594. @ Demerera:

    LOL!! You nailed it on the head! I’m going to do a post on my blog about my interactions with white people in my neck of the woods, and write it in the same vein as the ‘race realists’ – it will be hilarious! :cool:

    To do the rolling eyes, type this (without the spaces) – : roll :
    and it shows up like :roll:

    I used to know a number of the emoticon shortcuts, but some aren’t available anymore, or have different / updated text to put between the colons.


  595. This is a fascinating discussion, although I have to conclude the blog is wholly delusional. Black people are a culture and race apart and incapable of being assimilated into any other culture but their own.


  596. “Black people are a culture and race apart and incapable of being assimilated into any other culture but their own.”

    So why did White people bring us here?


  597. Black people were considered to be a source of inexpensive labor required to produce goods for export to Europe. They also were expected not to compete for political and economic power with their masters. Once the industrial revolution produced machines as a substitute for human labor there was no need for a slave system.


  598. @John Acord

    So white people caused this problem ,aka “people who are incapable of being assimilated” living in the US, to happen in the first place correct?


  599. Would you personally date or have relations with a white woman?

    No, as I am not interested in women. However, If I met a rich old white man with one foot in the grave and another on a banana peel, I’d jump at the opportunity to date him. He probably couldn’t do anything anyways.

    I am done, Brahms is a lost cause (totally believes that all of the evils White have committed and still commit are justified).

    Have pity on him! He’s been off his meds for a week now.

    These women acted white so you’d probably call them Aunt Thomasenas.

    No I wouldn’t. I would call them misguided fools. However, the fact that you dated these negresses in the past speaks volumes as they did not last. If that was the case they weren’t as dumb as I originally thought. As for the noxious term ‘Aunt Thomasina’, I prefer kerchief head as it is gender-neutral.

    Yet, ethnocentric blacks want some hybrid of that – to be separate yet beneficiaries of white tax dollars and govt enforced advantage.

    You mean like those Wall street bung holes who received those bailouts and are still getting lucrative bonuses? To me that is the ultimate ‘welfare’! I wouldn’t mind collecting their cheque’s!

    At the same time they deal dishonestly with blacks or from a competitive position. So by your reasoning blacks SHOULD resent whites,

    Come on now, don’t confuse him!

    I notice that blacks and whites get on quite well in the rural setting but no in the urban. Anyone care to hazard a guess why?

    With only cows, goats, sheep and yes, donkeys for company why wouldn’t they?

    The REAL joke is the self-proclaimed ‘public employee’ who can’t read, much less spell, properly!

    That’s why he is a public employee!!!! Folks your tax dollars at work!

    Do you want to be black?

    No but maybe he wants some black in him but is afraid to say so!

    This is a fascinating discussion, although I have to conclude the blog is wholly delusional.

    Is that you Alfred e. Neumann?

    They also were expected not to compete for political and economic power with their masters.

    How do you explain the majority white trash back then? What was their excuse? why were they brought over? Oh enlighten us nigroes with your wise old crackerisms sah! You sound like someone out of a second rate MAD magazine. Did you type that tripe with a straight face?

    Here’s John Acord on geetar, and Brahms on the banjo:

    It makes me want to scream ‘Yeehaw” whenever I hear it. Maybe I am becoming ASSimilated!!!!!


  600. Yes, our white ancestors, who had thrown off their own enslavement, forced this upon black people for their own economic and political gain. However, it was not an awakening of a moral conscience that caused the end of slavery but the fact that it was no longer economically important. Once freed from slavery, black people formed their own communities, institutions and economic institutions only to have it destroyed by white radicals who wanted them to remain wholly subservient to their political machines and machinations.


  601. By White radicals you mean White racists correct? And regarding these “black institutions” that were destroyed, the loss of these institutions have lead to the disparities (economic, political, family related, etc.) that we see today correct? A perfect of example of what you talk about would be the destruction of Rosewood or Black Wallstreet in Tulsa? Or the loss of good paying blue collar manufacturing jobs in the inner city? Or the intentionally trafficking of Heroin and Cocaine in Black neighborhoods by White organized crime (with the help or wink of an eye by law enforcement)? It is nice for once that we have a troll that acknowledges the impact of racist White actions and violence on the Black community…….


  602. @ Herneith

    You need your own show, lol!


  603. I could not agree more with you. Black people today are being as exploited by these so-called multiculturalists as any slave master of the 19th Century.


  604. “Do you want to be black?

    No but maybe he wants some black in him but is afraid to say so!”

    I KNEW he wanted some brown sugar! LMFAO.


  605. White multiculturalists committed those acts? I always though those acts were committed by Whites who’s mindframes were similar to yours…..


  606. @MK82:

    Must be crackeritis setting in.

    To John Acord and his sidekick ‘Brahms:

    On a serious note, what in the world has all this blathering have to do with ‘black’ rape statistics?


  607. I really did not want to take part in this but I guess I must, now that I stopped from laughing.

    @john acord:

    “Black people are a culture and race apart and incapable of being assimilated into any other culture but their own.”

    Which ones you mean? What culture you mean? Hoxas? Masais? Yorubas? Jamaicans? Brazilians? Aborginales? Somalis? You know, there are litterally thousands of “black cultures” around the globe. As there are languages and such. It is very hard to understand what you mean by that.

    As for the race, that good ole thing, unfortunately you are, John, biologically an african. Granted, because the enviromental affects in your heritage and genes, your skin is a bit paler and hair straight, but inside, biologically and scientifically, you are an african. Sorry.

    And on that note, some scientists think that because of our genes are so close to those of chimpanzees, we should be, biologically, seen and cathegorised as one group of chimpanzees.

    So not only you are in reality, genetically, an african yourself, you might be also a chimpanzee. Just like me. Sorry again.


  608. Forgive me if I don’t respond to all the witty “get whitey” pile-on comments.

    By “white radicals” he means White/Jewish leftists – the same people that funded MLK and wrote his speeches, who are the presidents of the NAACP, ACLU, SPLC. Pretty sure, white racist didn’t push for things like integration but gee wiz guys, I could be wrong.

    Do I want to be black – no, because I wouldn’t want to have to conform to your culture. Being white, I have the freedom to be me; but blacks must conform or face ridicule from fellow blacks. The culture that they conform to is base.

    So what’s the game? What do blacks want? To join whites and live as one culture? No. To be separated? No. To leave this country for Liberia? No. It seems the only thing blacks can want is for whites to bow down and accept all things blacks – good and bad; blacks, as a people, must be exempt from judgement but free to judge all others – its the price whites must pay for slavery.


  609. To address – what is white culture:

    Its very broad but does have some confining mores. One difference between white and black culture would be the whiten more against criminality and racism. Whites frown heavily on criminals whereas blacks accept their criminals (rationalizing it by blaming whites or police). Whites condemn their racists but blacks accept and promote their own racists: a KKK rally would be booed out of town by whites by a Black Panther or NOI rally is never countered by a black crowd. Black comedians have free reign to make white racist jokes (and boy to they ever). Words like Cracker are not bad words in the black community but N#@$@#, Coon, whatever black epithet you can imagine, is a sure way to face social isolation in the white community.

    Whites try to get along, blacks don’t. Reading comments here, it seems blacks have no intention of getting along.


  610. @ Brahms:

    As far as you can tell, are most whites more racist than you, less racist or about the same?


  611. @Brahms

    Thank you for your informed (i.e. my friends, friend, brothers uncles sister who works with someone who is black) and insightful (this is what the tabloid press say so it must be true) comments!

    So, to get back on topic here and bearing in mind your initial comments, do you think that Black people have a predisposition towards immoral anti social behaviour and violence?

    Are these the underlying factors behind your assertions that black men rape more than any other race?

    BTW, I wasn’t aware that the Black Panthers held anarchic and disruptive rallys…??? If you feel left out, why don’t you try the Black and White Minstrels. Those guys really knew how to entertain *rolls eyes* – the whole purpose of their act was to mock and ridicule – how do you think that compares to the Comedians you refer to, who by the way, laugh at the idiosyncrasies in ALL ethnicities!!!

    Anyway, the festive season is nearly upon us – go pull a Cracker and chill!


  612. Some interesting facts:
    “Excuses, Excuses: How the Right rationalizes racial Inequality in America (Criminal Justice)”

    http://www.blackcommentator.com/139/139_wise_2.html

    “And Justice for Some: Differential Treatment of Youth of Color in the Justice System”

    http://www.nccd-crc.org/nccd/pubs/2007jan_justice_for_some.pdf

    A greater percentage of African American youth are detained than white youth for every category of offense. White youth were 66 percent of those referred to juvenile courts but only 53 percent of those placed in detention. Black youth, on the other hand, were 31 percent of those referred (though African Americans are less than 15 percent of the population), but 44 percent of those detained.

    — Similarly, white youth were 66 percent of those referred to the juvenile justice system and only 44 percent of those detained in drug cases. Black youth, on the other hand, were 32 percent of those referred, but 55 percent of those detained.

    — Minority youth are one-third of the U.S. population, but they are two-thirds of the 100,000 juveniles confined in detention facilities and prisons.

    — Black youth with no prior admissions were six times more likely (and Latino youth were three times more likely) to be incarcerated in public facilities than white youth with no prior admissions when charged with the same offense.

    — Two-thirds of the 7,400 youth under 18 admitted in 1997 to adult prisons were minorities. Between 1985 and 1997, the number of people under 18 who were sentenced to adult prisons more than doubled from 3,400 to 7,400.

    — Though Black youth were 41 percent of cases processed through the juvenile justice system involving a juvenile charged with a felony, they were 67 percent of such cases transferred from juvenile courts to the adult criminal justice system.

    — White youth were 59 percent of all drug -related cases petitioned to be sent to adult courts, but only 35 percent of cases actually waived to adult courts. Black youth charged with similar offenses were 39 percent of cases petitioned for adult court, but 63 percent of cases sent to adult court.

    — As compared to a white juvenile who committed a violent crime, a Black juvenile is 18.4 times more likely to be sentenced to prison by an adult court, Hispanics 7.3 times more likely, and Asian Americans 4.5 times more likely.

    — In 1997, three times as many African American youth as white youth were sent to juvenile prison for a drug offense.

    — Black youth are more likely to be detained before trial than white youth, even for the same offense. Whereas 27 percent of African American youth are detained before trial, only 15 percent of white youth are detained. When the case involves drugs, 38 percent of African American youth are detained before trial, and only 16 percent of white youth are detained.

    — Seventy-eight percent of drug offense cases involving African American youth are formally processed through the judicial system, while only 56 percent of similar cases involving white youth are formally processed.

    — Nationally, custody rates for Black youth are 5 times as high as for white youth. For Latino youth, custody rates are 2.5 times as high as for white youth.

    AMERICAN RAPE STATISTICS

    http://www.paralumun.om/issuesrapestats.htm

    http://www.rapetraumaservices.org/rape-sexual-assault.html


  613. “Do I want to be black – no, because I wouldn’t want to have to conform to your culture. Being white, I have the freedom to be me; but blacks must conform or face ridicule from fellow blacks. The culture that they conform to is base.”

    That’s all I needed to know Brahms. That’s all we needed to know.


  614. @Brahms:

    “One difference between white and black culture would be the whiten more against criminality.”

    Bleeding the Beast: Polygamist sect accused of abusing welfare
    “Allen said the group also collects government assistance for children with disabilities – disabilities she attributes to inbreeding in the FLDS community. She claims “in the state ofArizonaalone, they’re getting between 20 and 30 million dollars a year” and most of the members “are living off taxpayer money.”

    http://insession.blogs.cnn.com/2011/08/03/bleeding-the-beast-polygamist-sect-accused-of-abusing-welfare/#comments

    Colorado City and Homeland Security

    BANKING ON HEAVEN Polygamy (Trailer) Must watch


  615. @ GoldFire:

    Nicely done…keep it up! :cool:


  616. Abagond – When did you stop beating your wife? A racist is someone who dislikes another because of their race – I don’t do that and I know nobody who does. I simply understand that those of the same race will always rally together against the majority race. The majority race never sees the problem until it is too late. If you want to see some white racism, just wait a decade or so.


  617. Demetra – quit living in the past – you were not alive for the minstrel shows.


  618. Goldfire

    “Black youth, on the other hand, were 31 percent of those referred (though African Americans are less than 15 percent of the population),”

    You can’t be serious – this tired crap? Blacks commit more crimes per capita – deal with it, its not racism its reality.


  619. Brotherwolf

    “That’s all I needed to know Brahms. That’s all we needed to know.”

    Profound


  620. Goldfire

    “Polygamist sect accused of abusing welfare”

    Whites frown on polygamists; whites ostracize those whites who don’t follow the rules, blacks support their crimnals and blame whites.


  621. This is great story – Toronto has approved its second black-only Afrocentric school. I’m sure all white European-centric schools are right around the corner (right) – we already have those right guys? This is a perfect example of black delusional thought – whites can’t have even a white interest group on a college campus because “that’s racist” but blacks can have black-only schools. What about all that desegregation stuff? Good god, how long will white people sleep? But hey, I’m white, my great great great grandparent might have owned a slave, I need to keep my white mouth shut.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/africentric-high-school-wins-board-approval/article2239058/


  622. @Brahms

    “Blacks commit more crimes per capita – deal with it, its not racism its reality.”

    Lol, you’re sounding peevish dear Brahm. Perhaps you’re just an auditory learner.

    No need to thank me. My pleasure :)

    “Whites frown on polygamists; whites ostracize those whites who don’t follow the rules, blacks support their crimnals and blame whites.”

    Is that why they’ve been able to get away with it in plain site for so long? Lol. As I recall when the whole FLDS crime syndicate first came to light, the Amur’can people where more concerned about the members religious freedoms rather than their criminal activity. Just like David Koresh. Another pedophile. Speaking of Pedophilia…. What is it? 70% of convicted child molesters are white? If you’re invested in stats that is. :)

    And in closing, and in no particular order, some of your most celebrated criminals:

    Billy the Kid
    Jesse James
    Baby face Nelson
    Pretty-boy Floyd
    John Dillinger
    Bonnie and Clyde
    Al Capone
    John Gotti :)

    .


  623. on Fri 18 Nov 2011 at 08:32:40 strangevisitor72

    Blacks fear their criminals just as Whites feared the Mafioso’s. We have to live with them you don’t. “Stop Snitching” is just a nice way to say “If you don’t keep your mouth shut you’ll end up dead.”


  624. @Brahms

    @Demetra/Demera???? One of your exes?????

    – quit living in the past – you were not alive for the minstrel shows.

    I wish I were living in the past, The Royal Variety show and programmes of its ilk were showing acts like this when I was younger.

    It is YOU who needs to face reality here…..


  625. @brahms:

    “Whites frown on polygamists; whites ostracize those whites who don’t follow the rules, blacks support their crimnals and blame whites.”

    Are you kiddin me? For the past 20 years the white media could not hail enough those guys who stole billions from you in Wall street! Those cheats, swindlers and thieves were appraised as heros by the white upper classes for years and years. They still are.

    Whites cheered to president Bush who broke all the international agreements and UN basic rules by allowing american troops and personel use torture as an OFFICIAL POLICY and then decalred that international war tribunal had no right ti deal with US soldiers. Basically he did the same what Saddam Hussein, serbian leaders from Slobodan Milosevic down, Al Qaida, the chinese killing tibetans, and some other nice guys had done and you white folks cheered on him.

    Under his leadership and command americans committed war crimes on regular bases because of his orders. American soldiers on the field were forced to do so because of the policies of president Bush. And you do ostracize those who do not follow the rules?

    So do not blabber about how white folks ostracize those who don’t follow the rules. That is more than funny.

    Whites frown on polygamists? Tell it to the mormons, for starters. Then tell it to the growing sect of the white youth who calls themselves as polyamorous, meaning they are in steady relationships with more than one person at the same time. Tell that to those millions of white swingers who on regulra bases swap partners, to those whites who have commonlaw wives, lovers, girlsfriends and so on at the same time when they are married.

    Get it?

    By the way “Brahms”? Seriously? Famous composer?


  626. Accord to White people who think like Brahms “Stop Snitching” reflects the criminalized culture of Black people, but my question is what does the “Blue wall of silence” in law enforcement (that is run by White people) represent? What is the “whistle blowing is bad” culture among US corporations (that are run by White people) represent? Why the double standards??? Aren’t crimes being committed in ALL cases?


  627. “Accord to White people who think like Brahms “Stop Snitching” reflects the criminalized culture of Black people, but my question is what does the “Blue wall of silence” in law enforcement (that is run by White people) represent? What is the “whistle blowing is bad” culture among US corporations (that are run by White people) represent? Why the double standards??? Aren’t crimes being committed in ALL cases?”

    You forgot “National Security” and “Classified Information”.


  628. @ GoldFire:

    Here are a few more names to add to your list of celebrated, GLORIFIED individuals:

    D. B. Cooper
    Colton Harris-Moore
    ‘Bambi’ Bembenek


  629. Goldfire – do you think tim Wise proved something? Maybe you don’t understand fractions – there aren’t less whites in jail, there are substantially more blacks. Blacks were segregated til the 60s, their opportunity to commit crime grew markedly after integration (why would that be?) so that today they outnumber whites in jail. Tim Wise- another Jewish messiah of the black man

    Oh god – whites frown on polygamy that’s polygamists go hide in compounds – you are batting a thousand. What was the other one…David Koresch, yes he was in a compound too. Being in a compound is kind of being ostracized.

    And finally, your “whites molest 70%” thing – -yeah, whites make up 85% of the population. If you’d like me to explain the significance of that just ask.

    StrangeVisitor – there may be some truth in that but the mafia was not a generalized problem.

    Demetra – maybe so. Have you seen White Chicks? Its this really funny movie where two black actors wear white face and pretend to be white girls. I was so hurt and offended; I’m glad we can share each other’s pain.

    A corporation has never mugged me, Bushes wars didn’t mug me either or punch me because I was white and then post it on World Star Hip Hop Videos.

    This conversation has really had a melt-down – whites are now responsible for wall street, the economy, wars…. ding dong cuckoo cuckoo. Good luck with your delusions.

    You guys forgot Jack the Ripper – he was white too. What childish nonsense.

    Did you know that white people are terrible drivers? – yeah, check this out – white drivers account for 75% of all car wrecks! Can you believe that shit? White blue eyed devils can’t drive! hahaah crazy ass crackas.

    I also heard that white people, when attacked by a knife wielding crazy – like in Friday the 13th – will stay around the cabins even after they see the dead bodies of their friends – why do white people do that? Must something seriously wrong with the white man. Whenever I see a movie depicting this behavior, I can’t help but yell at the screen or yell to one of my friends several rows away – I can’t help it.


  630. – maybe so. Have you seen White Chicks? Its this really funny movie where two black actors wear white face and pretend to be white girls. I was so hurt and offended; I’m glad we can share each other’s pain.

    Definately so. I’m sure you can appreciate this type of behaviour much better than I, after all, your people were called Crackers and were trying to fit in to society, then you went to a school where your peers were telling you that you came across as ‘part black’ and so poor confused you, didnt quite know where you wanted to fit in did you.

    I ‘get’ why you would appreciate the concept of White Chicks too. This is why I directed you to the black and white minstrels so you can have the best of both worlds. I sincerely hope you can dance, certainly more than a 2 step shuffle – otherwise you might find yourself feeling ‘left out’ again against all these comparitively rhythmical people and that just wouldnt be fair would it!

    BTW, women love it when men can dance. It can be a great indicator as to other things… this might be your saving grace when you meet your next woman if you can – and before you ask, no, moshing and po-going dont count!!!!


  631. @Abagond

    Can we have spell check on here? – some people seem to have trouble with their spelling. Whilst I respond to some of the comments, can’t be sure they are meant for me and I dont want to discriminate or leave anybody out – Thank you ;-)


  632. This argument about more White women being raped by White men than by Black men, and more being raped by men they know than by strangers, is just so damn silly I have to comment on it.

    By this skewed logic I can make the argument that street crossings are more dangerous than hand grenades, because more people in most Western countries die every year from being hit by cars at street crossings than are killed by hand grenades.

    The truth is that more White women are raped by White men than Black men for one single reason: Most White women aren’t stupid enough to be alone around Blacks. (And no, I don’t believe MOST Blacks who find themselves alone with a White woman will try to rape her, But the risk of being alone with a Black man is certainly much higher than being alone with a White man.


  633. Personally, I think white people are more likely to commit rape offences more than anyone else, from my observation over the years.

    Of course, that doesn’t mean other races don’t do the same.

    The crime statistics can only be recorded if the victim comes forward, or the perpetrator found, as well as other DNA evidence available if the perp has not been caught, yet.


  634. @Bulanik

    Throughout the years of living in the UK, I couldn’t help but notice that numbers of individual white women couldn’t leave many individual black men alone, and really did everything they could just to BE ALONE with at least one of them…

    Truesay, but of course, some wont want to acknowledge this…


  635. @Demerera

    Actually, I live in the UK, born and bred and I can tell you that is the truth.

    Besides, most black men that go out with white women tend to treat them very well, from what I’ve seen.

    Even my black builder was getting some attention from some oldish looking white women the whole time he was doing the work…Every other day they were hovering around him making cheap conversation……So, there you go.

    You never know though, they might have whispering sweet nothings to him because they are scammers trying to STEAL my house offering the poor chap some extra money, these older white ladies tend to have big pockets…LOL

    I have had all kinds of people with affiliations to Abagond prowling around my premises, so I just do not know for certain who is who and what is what.

    @ ABAGOND

    I hope you received the first ever email I sent you.

    PLEASE REMOVE THE LINKS YOU HAVE PLACED IN MY BLOGS WITH IMMEDIATE EFFECT.


  636. I see Brahmsy’s still foaming at the mouth over the truth.


  637. Most rapes are commit by men of close relationship, aka family (husband, uncle, cousin) or friends. Be aware of men you KNOW, not the ones you DON’T.

    A FACT supported by statistics. Race has very little to do with it.


  638. @ Demerera, Bulanik, Happiness

    Black is the new black!


  639. I’ma gonna buy me some buy some big black felt pen or sum mean body paint to get lucky in the bars…


  640. @ Happiness

    It is not me. I do not know where your blog is.


  641. @Happiness

    Women always flock to the ‘hunky’ laborourer dont they? I bet yours was pleased with the amount of attention he was getting – so long as it didnt distract him from his work!.

    @Bulanik

    These white men must be so hurt and jealous when they witness the sexual interest that some white women have in some black men.

    It is the deep seated fear of these types of men but they have to rationalise it in their heads and apportion ‘blame’ somewhere. They don’t get that for some its about personal preference, not necessarily because its better.

    I will respond to the observational part of your post on the open thread.

    @HannuL Black is the new black!
    ;-)


  642. Why wouldn’t some white women have interest in black men? After all, there are white men who are interested in black women! Lo and behold! Mercy, mercy me!


  643. Abagond you’re to be commended by going right to the heart of what is clearly a sensitive issue for both blacks and whites. Perhaps you and others may want to consider actual data rather than emotional beliefs or “common knowledge”. Perpetuating myths is not just a “white” problem or a “black” problem – all racial groups seem to do it.

    I have extensively been researching data from the early and mid-1800s to learn what actually did happen – not what we commonly believe or want to believe. There is extensive US census data that asked whether women or children were of mixed race. There are also collections or articles from that period.

    The census data revels in a nuimber of ways that balck women were not having mixed race children in any significant numbers – white owners were not raping balck women. That’s the factual data. The census data does not show black people or white people reporting mixed children.

    Why not?

    Unfortunately slaves were an economic,ic asset and white owners were terrified of losing control as had happened not to long before in Haiti. Having sexual relations with your property would reduce your power and authority over your slaves. It would also impact on your relations with your peers who frowned on it and could ostracize you.

    Alexis-Charles-Henri Clérel de Tocqueville – a noted French political thinker and historian visited the American South during this time and wrote a number of articles about race relations and brothels. He noted that there were very few “light colored” black people in Southern cities and those could most often be traced to free blacks – not slaves.

    This doesn’t satisfy the people who “want” to believe the worst – and then this also becomes a form of racism.

    I know a little reason and actual fact does not overcome emotional arguments – but it is important to understand whether you have anything to stand on when making these kinds of statements.


  644. @Bob

    I will repeat here what I have said on another post and reiterate this for you as you seem to be in such denial.

    Stop talking out of your back$ide. You know that this happened – why the fuck would it be documented. You think the ‘Slave Masters’ would want to write down their continual and savage wrongdoings for the world to see?

    The evidence is there in society – mulatto babies, people who historically are clearly and otherwise of mixed heritage and considering that people couldn’t be in an IR relationship let alone marry out of their race until the mid 60’s, how the hell do you account for this? I dont doubt there were a small percentage of illicit consensual couples but there are a whole nation of people BP who have white genes in them – you know this fully well Bob. You are merely trying to play dumb in case the girls you are raising discover this and you would be at a loss as to how to explain this away.


  645. Not al rapes -even repetitive ones- end up in pregnancy. Most of them don’t, actually.

    I’m not trying to prove or disprove anything, but you have to be quite careful when drawing conclusions from inaccurate and/or incomplete records 100-250 years ago. Especially by people who might not be totally biased.


  646. @Abagond,

    Well, I really don’t believe you.

    Dave is a police officer and a double agent…..This blog is a cointelpro set up to catch out people who are supposed to be black leaders and all that type of thing.

    For example, I met Dave who happens to work for British Intelligence and Russians as well…..double agent…..Maybe he is a police officer now, also does some moonlighting for Sky hacking people’s phones and planting drugs in people’s houses…..Or maybe you are Dave……Telling lies about running a cleaning business, the guy is a liar, that’s one of his side businesses among other things.

    Additionally, Dave works in Fianacial Services and is affiliated with banking where he deals with properties…..That guy cannot be trusted, of course you would already know that if YOU are Dave.

    I met him while working for Samsung, he works for them too (he’s everywhere), that’s when I was poisoned with radioactive substances and my drink was spiked at Harrods, coincidence it is not.

    You have shady characters lurking on your blog.

    I also see that you speak in code…….I know about all the reading between the lines because I am especially gifted at spotting those patterns.

    Your blog is dodgy and so are you…….Don’t try to play innocent with me.

    You are connected to the Greene’s and Hicktownpress is your other affiliated blog…..Don’t try to be clever….You’re not the only one who is smart, alright.


  647. “Dave is a police officer and a double agent…..This blog is a cointelpro set up to catch out people who are supposed to be black leaders and all that type of thing.

    For example, I met Dave who happens to work for British Intelligence and Russians as well…..double agent…..Maybe he is a police officer now, also does some moonlighting for Sky hacking people’s phones and planting drugs in people’s houses…..Or maybe you are Dave……Telling lies about running a cleaning business, the guy is a liar, that’s one of his side businesses among other things.

    Additionally, Dave works in Fianacial Services and is affiliated with banking where he deals with properties…..That guy cannot be trusted, of course you would already know that if YOU are Dave.

    I met him while working for Samsung, he works for them too (he’s everywhere), that’s when I was poisoned with radioactive substances and my drink was spiked at Harrods, coincidence it is not.

    “You have shady characters lurking on your blog.

    I also see that you speak in code…….I know about all the reading between the lines because I am especially gifted at spotting those patterns.

    Your blog is dodgy and so are you…….Don’t try to play innocent with me.

    You are connected to the Greene’s and Hicktownpress is your other affiliated blog…..Don’t try to be clever….You’re not the only one who is smart, alright”

    …Ummm…What??


  648. @brothawolf,

    Yes, that’s what I said…..Read it again.


  649. Anyway, back to the subject at hand.

    From what I’ve seen, certain people are so hellbent to convince people that black men have this built-in rape component in their psyche, and it’s ALWAYS black men that are on these people’s minds. Let’s keep it real, these people believe in their heart of hearts that black men are the biggest rapists because they are black. They don’t want to admit it. So, they will beat around the bush.

    It’s a road to nowhere trying to teach the willfully ignorant and angry. No matter how much facts or proof to counter their fetish of the black male rapist, they will prefer the myth because it makes them feel better about not being black.

    I’m just going to say this. Yes, there are black males who rape, but to believe that (a.) almost all of the black male population are rapists, (b.) it’s all based on biological information, and (c.) black men are the only men to fear as seen by the responses of these color aroused antagonists is nothing short of insanity of the highest order. In a way it’s nothing short of bullying based on myths to make black people despise themselves.


  650. @ Happiness

    I have no idea what you are talking about and have no idea of how to persuade you of my innocence.


  651. @Abagond,

    You don’t have to convince me about anything. What I don’t like is the way that you are fooling all these people on this blog pretending to be a black person when you are clearly white Jewish, working in the field of finance.

    Those practices are deceptive and you can’t build trust by trying to fool people.

    Besides, I wouldn’t expect you to admit to knowing anything, your posts and their content speak more for your deceptive behaviour than you can.

    But you are very clever.


  652. “What I don’t like is the way that you are fooling all these people on this blog pretending to be a black person when you are clearly white Jewish, working in the field of finance. Those practices are deceptive and you can’t build trust by trying to fool people.”

    Pot calling the kettle black? Or, is someone (clearly not Abagond) not taking (or taking too much of) their medication?

    And for the record, I certainly agree that he IS very clever. One has to be to make sense of the complex, shifting oppressive system that white supremacy/racism is. Even if he were white AND Jewish, I’d still be his fan. I’m a fan of all truth tellers.


  653. Wow – we get racist trolls, then we get the tinfoil hat-wearers! Fascinating…


  654. Matari,

    How am I a pot calling the kettle black…..Please explain…..or are you yourself a paid shill? There is no shortage of those these days.

    As far as Abagond being white and Jewish, I have no problem with that whatsoever because I am not racist, but I have access to information you don’t….Simple as that really.

    I am not on any medication and never have been…..For those who are intelligent enough, and clearly, some people here are not, you can easily unravel this web.

    I have nothing against Abagond at all, when all is said and done, he appears t be a likeable person….However, there is some decption going on here, unfortunately, I can’t go into all the details.


  655. “However, there is some decption going on here, unfortunately, I can’t go into all the details.”

    Why am I not surprised?


  656. brothawolf,

    What are you not surprised about?

    Simply put, a little while back my blog was hacked….I had a picture of one of the suspected people who hacked my blog……Someone sent me a number of links to my blog in th elinks to this post section, which can only be viewed in blogger draft when you log in….Personally, I thought it was Abagond who was posting the links in my blog.

    In the meanwhile, after reading through a number of the links it became clear that Abagond has some kind of affiliation with the writers of the Hicktownpress blog, a blog that I enjoyed reading last year.

    In the meantime, back to my blog….I have had all kinds of problems with incoming links from porn sites, mainly from Romania, Russia and some other places.

    In the link sent to me, there is reference to the fact that the person in question is a good father or is trying to convince me of the fact…..In the meantime, it turns out that there is some scandalous stuff pertaining to someone having an affair or should I say several affairs and all kinds of other crazy stuff.

    Let me just say that my blog has been hacked on a number of occasions, while I’m certainly no hacker, I have other I.T. related skills….anyway, through reading the links, I saw that there was some association with the person who hacked my website, a commenter on here called Val, Valerie, Valentina and another person called Lynn.

    It became clear that the person placing those links in my blog has some affiliation with Abagond’s blog and also Hicktownpress.

    I went over to Hicktownpress to ask questions and next thing I know Stephanie Lynn Green, who is one of the blog editors and a moderator on scam.com forums, (I used to be a member of that forum years ago), decided to ban me with no explanation whatsoever…….Turns out that another person named Lynn used to be the main writer on that blog had died sometime in 2010.

    Anyway, to cut a long story short, somehow or the other people on Hicktownpress decided to start writiing scandalous stuff about people in my family.

    Now, I must mention Dave……Dave is a commenter on this blog. what a number of people do not know is that, and I hope I am 100% correct here, Dave is an undercover police officer or should I say works in some kind of Law Enforcement, private investigator, he also works with the Russians and also for MI5 or some other agency like that.

    On YouTube, using another ID, Dave sent me a number of messages on one of my videos to do with fishing, having had a stalker following me all around in a white van, I reported that particular person to the police. Having read many of Dave’s comments on this blog, I came to realise that it is the SAME Dave that sent me messages in YouTube, says he runs a cleaning business.

    Anyway, I have met Dave offline while I was working in Consumer Electronics a while back…I met Dave once at a training session for Samsung…He has some Russian connections, I saw him at the bar with some Russians at our training day…..Then, I saw him on several occasions where I was working and my drink (half a bottle of water) was spiked with Radioactive substances….Strange because on the days that I saw Dave at Harrods, he was supposed to be working somewhere else, so what was he doing at Harrods I wondered?…The guy appears to be some kind of Double Agent or Spy…Anyway, it turns out that Dave also works for FOX news and SKY as well and my phone has been hacked and my movements have been tracked with that phone…The SAME Dave commenting on this blog…..Basically, this Dave charater is some kind of crooked cop or maybe he is related to Abagond, I’m not so sure.

    Also, apparently, someone has hacked my Internet connection and has probably been committing crimes with my account, so I think the police and other law enforcement were already investigating a few things, unknown to me.

    It’s just a long story….There is more to the story…..Anyway, a few days ago, I discovered that my blog was hacked once again with rude comments coming up on Internet pages I visited as well as these links to stories in my blog talking about all these disasters in coded messages within the links to this post section in draft blogger……According to Dave and the messages he put on my blog, the person who tried to kill all my family is the author of this blog…..I assume he is referring to Abagond.

    Anyway, I’m not too sure is Dave has got some mental problems or whether he is just trying to wind me up and annoy me, but he is NOT a good person and involved in a lot of shady stuff, it seems.

    Well, people who know all about COINTELPRO and Black Operations will know exactly what I am talking about, and yes, it does sound bizarre.


  657. Also, let me add that by his own admission, Dave has stated clearly on this blog that he is racist.

    Now, a twist to the story, someone called Luke Smith tried to take out some mail order catalogue accounts at my house, which needed refurbishment work…..In the links I had on my blog, someone called Tracy Smith’s name came up in the links posted on my blog, Phoenix and all kinds of strange people.

    Phoenix is someone I know from some black hair forums years ago, mixed race, half Korean and half black…..I’ve seen a Phoenix commenting on this forum.

    In the meantime, I have had other problems pertaining to my mortgage and this whole thing seems to stem from PROPERTY and dodgy deals.

    So, apparently, Dave is also involved in property AS WELL. In the links placed on my blog, it appears that Dave is on some kind of mission to change the land title and ownership on the land registry of my house…..This Dave fellow sounds like a criminal who also likes to play pranks, personally, I don’t find it funny at all, especially if people are trying to kill me.

    So, I don’t want to out Abagond in any way, but I have to state my piece……This Dave fellow is harrassing me and he is an undercover moonlighter in a number of shady things….So, people need to know who they are dealing with……There is something NOT normal about that guy.

    I was writing about health and beauty related stuff on my own blog until I stated getting harrassment from all kinds of stupid people…..These people are making me so flaming angry.

    Also, I don’t want people including me in things that I am not involved in…..If somebody had an affair or affairs with others, it was NOT me and I appreciate being LEFT OUT of it and not getting involved with things that are not mine to be involved in pertaining to dysfunctional family relationships……Leave me out of it….PLEASE.

    –End of Transmission–


  658. @ Happiness:

    If you wish to rant further please do so on the Open Thread. Otherwise I will delete your comments – they are WAY off topic here.


  659. Back on topic – @ Bulanik: Yes, I see that…it is amazing that such a major disconnect exists! People like that must have a hard time in life, what with doing their collective best to keep from being sucked into the black hole that sits where their cranial contents should, LOL

    As far as rape statistics go, are we talking about rape of adults by other adults, or do we dare venture into the quagmire of violated children? White men in positions of power seem to be the majority of offenders, from what I gather:

    http://www.kptv.com/story/16113641/vancouver-sunday-school-teacher-accused-of-sexually-abusing-girl

    No, the links I post aren’t “a joke” as some of the racist trolls ASSume or label them! :roll:


  660. @Abagond,

    You know that I am not ranting.

    Brothawolf asked for an explantion and he got one…..I know it’s long winded….Besides, I am glad I got that off my chest.

    I see that you have no comments relating to the parts where I mention Valentine, Valentina, Valerie and hacking my blog…..I know that you know her.

    @Sepultura13

    Rape and especially rape of little children is totally unacceptable and personally, I don’t think that is a joke at all.

    Yes, as you say men in positions of power are the main offenders and KNOW that they can get away with it…..I was reading about one very recent scandal only a few days ago.


  661. Wow – we get racist trolls, then we get the tinfoil hat-wearers! Fascinating…

    Hahahahahaha!!!!!


  662. wow I haven’t been on here in a while, frankly, been trying to get back on track .

    But I hope this happiness freak isn’t talking about me


  663. @ Brahms:

    As promised my post on how whites misread the DOJ numbers:

    http://abagond.wordpress.com/2011/11/23/reading-while-white-black-rape-statistics/


  664. Yes, they all comprehend exactly what you are stating. They will forever continue to indulge their fantasies enabling this dreadful crime to continue unabated until whatever remains of the good will between blacks, whites and Hispanics has been destroyed.


  665. on Thu 9 Feb 2012 at 11:07:47 Rebecca Smith

    Blacks make up 14% of the population and whites about 70-75%. Therefore, white men should be arrested 5 more times for rape if they committed the same amount of rape, not just TWICE as often.

    Therefore your line: “” Second, white men are a far bigger threat “” – is a bogus lie. I also assume white women report rate much more frequently than black women, because I find it hard to believe only 12,780 black women were raped in 2007 versus 185,430 white women. Do you believe only 12K black women were raped in 2007? No way.

    Also, I checked those statistics, you left out the 13% “race not available” for the rapists of white women, meaning 21% of the rapists COULD be black.
    If 20% of the rapists were black, that would equal about 37K white rape victims of black rapists, which is actually more in keeping with the yearly average as reported by DOJ.

    YOU ALSO SAID;
    But interracial rape is so rare that there are fewer than ten cases in its sample.

    The SAME 2007 chart reflects that (*asterisk) meaning less than 10 cases in it’s ‘sample’ of the BLACK ONLY VICTIM rape category for the ‘perceived race of perpetrator’ and we know for a fact that there were at least almost 13,000 rapes against black women, THEREFORE you can extrapolate that when they state they used 10 or less it has nothing to do with NUMBERS of CASES. Otherwise, I guess 10 or less black women were raped last year.

    I can go online right now and find hundreds of cases of black on white rape, so don’t EVEN make up that bullshit lie about the ‘rarity’ of interracial rape. The only rarity is non blacks raping black women.

    From what I can see, both YOU and the people you complain about pick and choose what they want to reveal in bias of their own agendas.

    ALSO – WHERE DID YOU COME UP WITH THIS UNFILTERED CRAP???
    RAPE IS TWICE AS COMMON IN U.S. & CANADA THAN AFRICA?

    Well for one thing, the US & CANADA are NOT WHITE COUNTRIES they are mixed, and up to 30% non white. The closest thing left to a ‘white country’ would be in Europe, like Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Denmark, if you want to compare white versus black countries. Either way, that is complete and total bullshit.
    ALSO, don’t compare a CONTINENT (Africa) with many countries to A SINGLE COUNTRY (United States or Canada) because that is NOT the same.

    HERE’S some South African rape statistics….
    INTERPOL states South Africa is the RAPE CAPITAL OF THE WORLD.
    A woman was raped in South Africa every 17 seconds. This did not include the number of child rape victims.
    It was estimated that one in every two women would be raped.
    Between 28 and 30 percent of adolescents reported that their first sexual encounter was that of being raped or gang raped.
    Of South African men who knew somebody who had been raped, 16 percent believed that the rape survivor had enjoyed the experience and had asked for it.

    CONGO / DRC – Rape is the primary reason for the spread of AIDS, and Congo is #5 in the world for AIDS.

    Those DOJ statistics change so much from year to year, and for some counts, apparently they use small samples, in others not:
    2008
    White vics /117,640 White perp 74.9 Black Perp 16.4* other: 2.8* n/a: 5.9*
    Black vics/ 46,580 White perp. 00* Black Perp: 74.8 * other: 0.0* n/a 25.2*

    So for black victims 25% of perpetrators are ‘race unknown’ ??

    I would seriously like to see a report on how they do their statistics, and I believe they have some reports like that available.

    I honestly don’t see how looking at 10 rape reports out of 13,000 would give an accurate example of anything.


  666. @ Rebecca Smith

    From what I know thousands of black women are raped by white men every year in America and thousands of white women are raped by black men every year. And if I had to bet, I would even say that second number is higher than the first by a considerable amount.

    Why? Because most rapists are ex-boyfriends, stepfathers and so on, and there are way more black men with white women than white men with black women. And THAT probably has way more to do with beauty standards, etc than any supposed extra-special Mandingo savage urge on the part of black men. Or any supposed extra-special impotency (or latent homosexuality) on the part of white men. The world is way more ordinary than it is on television.

    The trouble with the DOJ numbers is that they extrapolate from a SAMPLE and when it comes to interracial RAPE that sample is way too small to draw any firm conclusions. But people hold them up as HARD FACTS and UNCOMFORTABLE TRUTHS. That comes from a RACIST misreading:

    http://abagond.wordpress.com/2011/11/23/reading-while-white-black-rape-statistics/

    As to cherry picking and “Africa is a country” that is just what you did by cherry picking South Africa and DR Congo. Neither are “average” countries in Africa, far from it, and yet you are making them stand for the whole like it was some random sample.

    DR Congo has been in a hugely violent war for 18 years. Shall I write a post on the rapist nature of White American men and base it on what they did in the wars in Iraq and Vietnam? And then compare that to the rape numbers for CIVILIAN black men?


  667. Sherry– what a completely ridiculous rant! Facts are facts, they cannot be denied no matter haw hard you attempt to rationalize or justify the behavior of black men towards white women. By the way, the DOJ statistics have nothing to do with anything that may have occurred or currently occurring in South Africa or the Congo.


  668. In Kenya, earlier this year, Amnesty International released a report titled ‘Insecurity and Indignity: Women’s experiences in the slums of Nairobi, Kenya’. It emerged that women living in slums were so afraid to leave their homes that they would avoid using communal toilet facilities because of the fear of being raped.

    NEARLY one out of every seven victims whose rape was reported by the Namibian Police in its daily crime bulletins last year was ten years or younger.

    RAPE IN BOTSWANA: A NATIONAL SHAME – search

    Gabon -Rape is against the law and carries a penalty of between five and 10 years’ imprisonment; however, rape cases were seldom prosecuted. Only limited medical and legal assistance for rape victims was available.

    Rape stats for some African Countries are not even available; were they so, they would all look like South Africa (which still has the technology to record accurate data).

    Which black countries can we talk about Abagond? Not Liberia, Somalia, South Africa, Zimbabwe, Angola, Nambia, Kenya, Rwawanda.


  669. @ Rebecca and Brahms

    Both of you want to fill in the missing data according to racist presuppositions. All that that proves is that you are racist, not that your racism is supported by fact. When you do not know, you do not know. You do not get to fill it in any way you like.

    And you, Brahms, are making the same Africa-is-a-country mistake as Rebecca except you take it a step further: you are using the slums of one city in one country like it proves something about all of Africa. As if Africa is nothing but a vast slum.


  670. here’s part of the reason we can’t talk about Kenya-

    and let’s talk about rape here in the US in the military (predominately by white men against white women) and let’s talk about how much those rapes are covered up…if we wanna talk about militarized rapes


  671. I am not quite sure why some racist whites are so fixated and obsessed with this fantasy of black men out en masse raping white women.


  672. they like it or something, like maybe it turns them on.


  673. I know, it is strange. The way they keep twisting facts to support it, it is like they WANT it to be true!!!!!


  674. you know after reading some of the stuff about cuckold/mandingo parties and white men (a lot of whom are racist or don’t associate with blacks publicly) paying black men to basically “ravish” their white wives in front of them…i’m starting to wonder if maybe secretly that’s what it’s all about…maybe some really do get turned on by it…I don’t know…I could be wrong…but it is very strange.


  675. @Peanut

    LOL! That’s one way of looking at things. A lot of things fly out the window when you look at the types of porn available (too many to list)!


  676. The author has twisted the facts of the statistics. The math says that black men commit more crimes and rape than white men as a percent of their population.


  677. How impressive. You demonstrated that blacks have a vastly larger colorful resume of criminal history.
    That does not dismiss the facts, that they rape and kill white women far beyond white men committing crime against black women.

    Your a race baiting lying FAIL


  678. @Gabrielalanking
    Why did you come on here to call Abagond out? He is not race baiting lying fail, he is a human being like you that wants to state the facts and state his opinion.


  679. BULL. Zimmerman ain’t even freakin white! Yet it’s a national holiday and “hands across America” for this kid who was killed by the evil oppressive white man?
    While stories of black crime on white people go virtually un reported?
    Here are some more shocking statistics: More than 1,600 Whites are murdered by Blacks each year. Blacks murder Whites at 18 times the rate Whites murder Blacks.


  680. @ gabrielalanking

    Not sure where you are getting your numbers from or what country you are talking about. In America in 2009, according to the FBI, where the race of the offender and victim were known:

    Blacks murdered 454 whites (not 1,600)
    Whites murdered 209 blacks

    Blacks murder whites not at 18 times the rate at which whites murder blacks, as you stated, but at twice the rate.

    Black-on-white murders are way more likely to be reported in the press, as a Google search will show you, but they only account for 6.8% of all murders. Whites are 6.5 times more likely to be murdered by another white person than by a black person.

    The fear that whites have of black men is not driven by crime statistics. I know that because whites keep twisting and exaggerating those statistics to fit that fear, not the other way round.

    Source:

    http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_06.html


  681. Here you go dude, FEDERAL statistics. And keep in mind, white people around 1900 were 30% of the global population. Now, only 8%. And STILL the ONLY group which cannot call itself “minority”. lol

    http://www.examiner.com/political-buzz-in-lafayette/federal-statistics-of-black-on-white-violence-with-links-and-mathematical-extrapolation-formulas


  682. @ gabrielalanking

    I can read the FBI numbers for myself. I do not need (nor would I ever TRUST at face value) the statistical analysis of some white Southern man working for the straight-up racist New Century Foundation. If that report ever became widely believed or quoted, I would take the time to tear it apart. Otherwise it is a waste of brain cells.

    I gave you the link to the FBI numbers. Look at them for yourself to see how badly you have been lied to.


  683. Where do you get your statistics through, Move on dot org? lol. Answer me this hot shot, why is it a media circus for Trayvon, and yet stories like this got virtually NO media coverage. Riddle me that one genius.


  684. @ gabrielalanking

    1. I get my statistics straight from the FBI:

    http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_06.html

    2. I have heard of the Knoxville case so it is not doing too badly.

    3. The coverage for Trayvon is the exception not the rule. For example, Ramarley Graham, Howard Morgan, Aiyana Jones, Kenneth Harding or even Oscar Grant never got anything like this coverage. WHITE people are telling me about this case! It is the biggest case like this since Rodney King in 1991.


  685. After reading about some countries. It is a very sad subject to type about but the stats are there and Africans need to stop raping women. They rape there own women. Not just other races they have issues with it and they to stop treating women poorly. Women cannot live in fear.


  686. Women do not deserve to live in fear. Hopefully we become a more peaceful country and other countries as well. Women deserve more respect.


  687. Kyle,

    Why is it just Africans that rape women? Are you trying to say that men of other races don’t rape their women?


  688. This whole thing is a virtual no brainer people. The lack of Zimmerman’s arrest (public street unarmed kid?) is basic proof the government’s intention is to use this event to stir racial tensions, and distract people from the real issues like:

    #1 Massive multi trillion dollar theft conspiracy dubbed a “bail out”
    #2 The deliberate use of derivatives to collapse the global economy
    #3 911 TRUTH
    #4 The hi jacking of the US gov by Satanic internationalists and the UN
    #5 The complete eviceration of the Constitution, and Republic by same


  689. gabrielalanking

    The belief that white-black tension is a govt. op is the wrong way to think about it. The tension is organic yet the goal is not to turn whites against blacks but to agitate blacks against white society and instill guilt for the white race in whites.

    Any sane person watching the news cannot get the sense that it is whites who are the target of race-based news stories (can you think of one story who’s protagonist is a racist black?).

    The responsibility for this black disgruntlement is to be instilled in the white – this is the secondary objective; whites should feel guilt and acquiesce to anti-white remedies (section 8, AA, anti-white history, etc.).

    The goal is not to distract; the goal is fragmentation of white cohesion – there is no shadowy subterfuge.

    The overall goal is fragmentation of white cohesion; hence attacks on race (no such thing), Christianity, homogenous neighborhoods, nationalism, nuclear family – white cohesion is bad for non-whites (especially Jews, or so they think).

    To think rationally you must first acknowledge that people freely associate and almost uniformly group by race; race is the foremost determinate of shared interests.


  690. To Brothawolf and everybody else on here. I’m not your in shoes so im at fault for saying what I said. There are going to be bad people in every race regardless that is life. Hopefully we can all make better progress with dealing with these horrible issues. Lot’s of countries still do not respect women. This is a subject that is very important for everybody’s future in life. They should start to respect women more. It is just not right for what some people do to children and women in there lives. Hopefully in the future this will not be an issue anymore.


  691. @ kyle white men need to stop raping their women too. Every time i turn on the news I hear about a white man killing his pregnant girlfriend or wife and the pedophilia has to stop…of course not all white men do this, just as not all African men “rape their women,” but if you want to generalize and play games I can play that too…get it?

    people in glass houses do not throw stones


  692. just saw your last comment kyle, i responded before i read it. just don’t generalize and don’t stereotype African/Black men and give white men a pass and not generalize them that was the point


  693. @ gabrielallaking or w/e

    you must be blind not to see the difference between knoxville and trayvon martin. Knoxville did get media coverage. there are countless blacks who are victims of police brutality, crimes and they never get media coverage. but the reason trayvon martin blew up the way it did was because of the fact that his killer is still walking free…unlike i knoxville where the murders were brought to justice and were arrested and are either on death row or serving time. they’re not walking around free. that’s the difference.

    however there are countless black lives lost everyday and not only do they not get mention in the media, but their murders get to walk free, especially if they’re cops.

    if they had arrested Zimmerman and brought him to justice, we wouldn’t be having this discussion right now. but white life is more prized and valued in this country then black life.

    and btw trayvon martin didn’t blow up UNTIL social media caught onto the story. it was the efforts of his parents and local people that brought this into the limelight THEN mainstream media picked up on it so without the efforts of people who used social media this case may have gone by unnoticed as well. period.


  694. also at gabrielalaking,

    why is it that some people love to talk about issues like this “dividing,” the country across racial lines when the country is already divided. it’s very divided, that’s evident when you look at the black schools, the black neighborhoods, the unemployment rate, the country is already divided. why is it that when blacks bring racism up and want justice all of a sudden that’s dividing the country? that doesn’t make sense…


  695. Peanut, much agreement with your comments. However, my opinion is that Zimmerman’s was not arrested to foment racial tension- which is exactly what the gov wants. They want an “LA riot” kind of mind set to ensue. Worse yet, they may arrest Zimmerman, and then let him off. Setting the stage for what the gov calls “civil unrest” translation: justification for more incremental martial law. By all right- Zimmerman should have at least been arrested and tried. He shot an unarmed kid on a public street. I sense political foul play. And, what most blacks do not want to acknowledge here, is that Zimmerman is not even really white. At least, not in the eyes of a white man like me.

    Thanks to the gov “terror hype”, and domestic spying programs, you can expect more drooling paranoid control freaks like Zimmerman to find a warm home for their evolving psychosis in the Homeland Security social engineering infrastructure.


  696. “Brahms”, that’s how it works. The shadow gov takes advantage of organic circumstances like racial tension, and then “directs” and channels it through institutions and movements privately financed by themselves.
    This has been done with religions, governments, movements such as Occupy (spearheaded and funded by Lucis Trust), KKK, Black Panthers, Susan G. Komen, Kony 2012, global warming, you name it, they are behind the social engineering of most groups.


  697. gabrielalanking

    If that was how it worked then whites would be targeted for this fomentation as well.

    There are black on white racist crimes steadily occurring and yet these stories are only covered by local media – what a great lost opportunity to stir up racial tension right? But doing so would foster white cohesion and so these stories are ignored (even though that means lost revenue for the MSM).

    The move to a culturally and economically integrated world with large economic blocks (NAU, EU) is real and I’m not disagreeing – the current Western support for the “Arab Spring” may be to bring in more countries to the EU. National Sovereignty is incompatible with globalization but so is white cohesion or nationalism. What you are missing is an understanding of motivations and strategy. The motivation is to end White Western Hegemony -its a fulfillment of “never forgive, never forget”. The strategy is a psychological attack on white cohesion and a political/economical attack on the white nation-state. Notice, the solidarity of blacks is boosted by the Trayvon Martin story while Whites again are supposed to feel guilt.

    “I think there is a resurgence of anti-Semitism because at this point in time Europe has not yet learned how to be multicultural. And I think we are going to be part of the throes of that transformation, which must take place. Europe is not going to be the monolithic societies they once were in the last century. Jews are going to be at the centre of that. It’s a huge transformation for Europe to make. They are now going into a multicultural mode and Jews will be resented because of our leading role. But without that leading role and without that transformation, Europe will not survive.”

    Barbara Lerner Spectre

    \http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2Vq_e2Z1ug


  698. I just hope in the future more countries start to respect women more. In some countries men do not have any respect at all it is horrible.


  699. On the face of it, these statistics disprove what you call “racist” arguments. On closer inspection, they reinforce them.
    You state that white men are twice as likely to be arrested for rape. So what? They are 76% of the population of the United States. That arrest rate is proportionally less than the white population.
    Also, where do you get your statistics that rape is twice as common in Canada and Australia?
    You twist statistics by talking about INTERRACIAL rape. By pointing out the lack of records on interracial rape, you draw the unrelated conclusion that BLACK rapists do not make up a disproportionately high rate of the rapists in the United States. If that is your logic, please provide us with statistics on white-on-black rape statistics.
    Your whole response is based on the misinterpretation of the original reasoning, statistics and the assumption that all whites conform to your image of them i.e. they are all afraid of black people and stereotype them.
    In summary, this article doesn’t prove your point or disprove the original arguement.


  700. Excuse me I would like to apologize to everybody on here for my negative comments about Africans and rape. In the end I believe every race has to come together and help eachother. Peace everybody lets all try to help one another.


  701. WHAT A LOOOOAD OF CRAP.

    13.6% of the population and majority of assault crimes as suspects and charged?

    Where on earth did you get statistics on other countries other than the US being double in rape crime? HAVE YOU CHECKED THE STATS?

    I’m a police officer with legal background (trained lawyer) in one of those countries you mentioned, know friends who are in the police in the USA, and I can tell you that what you’re mentioning is TOTAL AND UTTER CRAP.


  702. Crime in NY, namely sexual assaults (if the NYPD aren’t lying to the public) has actually gone up 400%. With blacks @ 20%+ unemployment and the elite people retained in jobs, the problem is not fixable as resentment builds all over the United States in these troubled times.

    Black crime WILL go up this year and that includes sex crimes, in the near future and in times to come due to the times we live in. Everybody knows the economy is not fixable unless more war ensues regardless of what beliefs you hold.

    We’re living in a dffrnt era than post WW2 and diffrnt economic structure completely.

    It doesn’t matter what you want to BS about. This is not based on racism, it’s fact.

    NYPD – as my friends told me – lost 6600 cops over recent times.

    You do the math in comparison to where I work and live.


  703. And I actually know friends that ARE BLACK in the USA who work in government.

    I don’t know where you get your stats from but it goes further into psychosocial and social factors than BS stats like this.


  704. Suffice to say, this is NOT about racism at all. Colour of skin and even religion is very illusory given ideology and environment coveys such a social mask; negative aspects of humanity promote violence of life, in particular as example of this reiteration, always. Such is life.
    When you know people that have come from boroughs whereby there’s so much internal hate, societal resentment, substance & sub-cultural addiction, toxic street gossip, general daily/nightly crime, consistent various abuse, and you know black people that have graduated to MA and PHD students, whom have secured their futures, you realise that they have a strength that the rest of the world admires greatly. You can’t buy it. They had to shake off everything to make it out.
    You think it’s about race… yet the people I know will talk to you about environment and how it affects one psychosocially. There’s plenty of rich kids that do not have their education or corporate prowess, yet they didn’t come from their environment.
    There’s a whole slew of issues involved regarding this broader topic and it’s not about lack of money or racism. People I know who are very well educated and black still kicked their goals and they came from a place where there was very little. Crime can happen in every socioeconomic strata, though reality is reality when it comes to particular environmental factors and statistics.


  705. Re; “I looked up the numbers for myself;
    The FBI does not break out numbers for interracial rape but the Justice Department does for “rape and sexual assault” – based on a crime victim survey it does every year. But interracial rape is so rare that there are fewer than ten cases in its sample. So you cannot draw any firm statistical conclusions.”

    First off you don’t know how to read the report or just lied about it. The “fewer than ten” number is for White on black sexual assault. Fewer than ten cases of white on black sexual assault occur every year in the U.S. Meanwhile 50-60 thousand cases of black on white sexual assault are recorded every year.

    I didn’t read the rest of you rant after that blatantly misleading lie.


  706. john t ur a fool


  707. http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cvus05.pdf

    Table 42

    White on black rape is a statistical zero while blacks raped 100 percent of the black victims and 33.6 percent of the 111,490 white victims or around 35,000 white women.
    The * under the white offender column means.. *Estimate is based on about 10 or fewer sample cases.
    That means less than 10 blacks were sexually assaulted by a white offender that year in America.


  708. @ John T

    Learn to READ. You misrepresented (“lied about” as you would put it) the DOJ report in at least two ways in your comment. You are seeing what you WANT to see, not what is written there.

    I wrote a whole post on Table 42. So instead of repeating myself here, read that post, then REREAD what the DOJ report says. If you want to comment further do it there:

    http://abagond.wordpress.com/2011/11/23/reading-while-white-black-rape-statistics/


  709. So if the general theme here is that the numbers say we should be more afraid of Whites than Blacks when it comes to rape, what am I supposed to think about the numbers that show Blacks grossly overrepresented in other crime categories?


  710. I don’t believe white men are afraid of black men. Actually I believe the opposite is true. When you get passed the bravado and everything is equal black men rarely “bow up to whites.” This is coming from an ex street fighter.


  711. F U CK OFF AND DIE RETARD….BLACKS ARE RAPING KILLING AND BRUTALIZING THE FKN WHITES….DOWN WITH THEM ALL AS THEY DO TO US…EYE FOR EYE…EVERY ONE OF US THEY RAPE THEY GET IT BACK…EVERY ONE OF US THEY KILL BACK ON THEM…IM SICK AND TIRED OF THE BLACK B LLSHT GOING ON IN AFRICA AND BROU
    GHT OVER HERE…GET RID OF EM ALL!!!


  712. Always interesting to see the sickness up close here, this is what it is about, why we have the descusions we have , why there are thread titles that are provacative…to fight against exactly the sick deranged mind sets you see a great example of here by slim


  713. Ah Slim, an apt moniker as you are ‘slim’ on brains.


  714. @ B.R.

    “Always interesting to see the sickness up close here, this is what it is about, why we have the descusions we have , why there are thread titles that are provacative…to fight against exactly the sick deranged mind sets you see a great example of here by slim”

    *******

    I don’t know that it’s interesting B.R. from where I sit – but it’s certainly *telling* (to me) that there are way more Bliffs, Randys and Slims than Sams, B.R.s & MaconDs!

    This white/nonwhite PROBLEM has been under discussion for centuries. If “discussions” are the primary component/weapon used against the sick, deranged or deluded racist mind then this is a war/fight that won’t ever be won.

    Discussions might be useful for the rare and few white people with *eyes that can SEE.* I seriously doubt that discussions are going to bring on a paradigm shift for those who worship (consciously or otherwise) at the alter of whiteness. I have absolutely no faith/evidence in discussions’ ability to alter centuries of twisted/sick white supremacist attitudes.


  715. Yeah, Matari , discusions arnt going to alter the sickness displayed . Discussing is what goes on here, since it is a blog, but, I get what you are saying…and for sure, hearing words from you and people like Brothawolf, just helps me get some amunition to load up on to deal with people like this


  716. Slim is probably a fly-by-night troll skimming through here just to leave his poop because he’s pissed off by the fact that he got screwed and is taking out on an entire race. Just in case he isn’t, it’s none the less evident that there are white people who have a severe problem with anything they perceive as “different”. It’s a human trait, but when it comes to white supremacy, it’s unique, complex, and chaotic.

    This ‘slim’ character has shown that racism is simple-minded, emotionally charged, fiction based and logically illogical. He is upset, and he’s chopping it down to a group based on color for the cause of it.

    Shameful.


  717. Considering that Blacks make up 13.6% of the population but have half as many arrests for rape only shows that they are far more prone to rape… if they had the same population as whites, then there count of rapes should theoretically increase by 7 or 8 times, making them 4x more likely to rape than whites.


  718. Check out the rape problem in South Africa where 1 in 4 BOYS not even men admit to raping.Its a similar problem across swaths of Sub Saharan Africa.Its not directed at white women its directed at any women.There is real evidence that the problem is also widespread across North Africa and strict Islamic states but reported rapes are so low because if women say they were raped in these countries they are quite often flogged or put in prison.Liberal media hide the black rape problem in America because they think if people knew the truth it would create social unrest and undermine the social engineering in play regarding race mixing.The Liberal ideology on most things is that the truth is not the most important thing,the ends always justify the means.


  719. Jason, Allen

    Why are you all so hung up on black rape? You two make it seem like rape is something only black men do. Rape is a problem that transcends color. There is a problem with rape in this world. That’s a fact, but it’s not because of black men from wherever. Rape is a universal problem in EVERY single corner of the globe even in places where there are no black people. Only a racist simpleton would colorize that word, throw it in our faces and run.

    If people like you cared so much about rape, why not take on the problem in your own neck of the woods and not base this on the color of one’s skin. Not all rapists have black skin. It’s common sense that people like you seem to avoid for your own twisted amusement.

    I’m honestly sick and tired of hearing that since I’m black and male, then I’m more of a potential rapist than nonblacks as if nonblacks are somehow immune to the problem. Why not look at the problem as a social issue and not as a black issue.


  720. Bianca, van Zyl

    Yes there might not be statistics about raping, but did you know that black men rape women because they believe that raping a virgin will cure them from HIV/AIDS. Most rapes are not reported because women are scared, men threaten them. Most rape crimes goes unnoticed, because women don’t have equal rights and will never have them, men disempower women everyday think that we are theirs to control. 1 in 2 girls/women are raped in south africa. every 17sec women are raped in south africa, so don’t you tell me that blacks are not violent and there are more theft statistics than rape. go do research before you make this website, because you have no idea…i know this information because i am south african, i know my country…don’t make a website if you are not sure about it….


  721. but did you know that black men rape women because they believe that raping a virgin will cure them from HIV/AIDS.

    Did you know White men rape women and men for the sheer sadistic pleasure of it?


  722. To Bulanik:

    I wonder how it compares with the UK conviction rate for rape, which for 2010, was only about 6%.

    This writer in the Guardian disagrees:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/mar/19/myths-about-rape-conviction-rates

    “The conviction rate for rape is 58%. That bears repeating. The conviction rate for rape, is 58%. The conviction rate for reportable crimes of all types is 57%. I know you will have heard the figure of 6%. Everyone has. That figure is actually an attrition rate, not a conviction rate, and even as an attrition rate it is wrong – the attrition rate for rape is in the region of 12%.

    An attrition rate is the amount of convictions resulting from reports of a crime, and is not routinely calculated for any crime other than rape. Therefore without manually undertaking the exercise, it is impossible to compare the (true) attrition figure for rape with other crimes. A conviction rate is the amount of convictions following a trial, and is calculated for all reportable crimes.”


  723. Just to remind all that in 1945 soviet army raped hundreds of thousands of german women in few months and none of the rapists were black. Also serbs and croats raped thousands of bosniak women in 1990’s and none of the rapists were black. Just to remind that raping is not a race thing.


  724. @ Bulanik…

    If i start telling, i wont stop…a woman in south africa have a change 8times higher of being raped in south africa than in the uk…i am a white south african, and i stand up for all colors of women in south africa…here are some statistics

    PE Childline 92nd Annual Report 2009
    Child Abuse/Neglect Cases by age
    0-2 yrs 20 sexually abused
    3-6 yrs 140 sexually abused
    7-13yrs 264 sexually abused
    14-18 yrs 91 sexually abused
    Total 515
    82.33% under 14

    Around 200,000 children a year are raped in South Africa
    At least 500,000 rapes per annum (see above) and according to UNICEF (http://www.unicef.org/southafrica/SAF_resources_gembrief.pdf ) “40% of reported rapes were committed against children during 2004/05”
    This produces a figure of 200,000 child rapes per annum

    According to The Rape Survivor Journal 09/01/2008 (http://www.rape.co.za/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=875)
    A study by Interpol, the international police agency, has revealed that South Africa leads the world in rapes. A woman was raped in South Africa every 17 seconds. This did not include the number of child rape victims. It estimated that one in every two women would be raped. Between 28 and 30 percent of adolescents reported that their first sexual encounter was forced. Of South African men who knew somebody who had been raped, 16 percent believed that the rape survivor had enjoyed the experience and had asked for it.

    A girl born in South Africa has around a 1 in 3 chance of completing secondary school, but she has a 1 in 2 chance of being raped.

    If 60 child rapes are reported and that represents 11.3% of all rapes, they extrapolated that 530 child rapes take place every day. This equals 1 child rape every three minutes.

    Researchers interviewed 1,738 men of all race groups, in both urban and rural settings in the Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal, provinces marked by high rates of AIDS and poverty, and the men answered questions about rape and HIV using small handheld computers in order to guarantee anonymity. Rape of a woman or girl had been perpetrated by 27.6% of the men interviewed, and 46% of those said that they had raped more than once.

    Around 40% of rape victims in South Africa are children.
    In Port Elizabeth, the country’s fifth largest city, it’s estimated that around a dozen children are raped every day.

    “Approximately 40% of reported rape cases are rape of children under the age of 18 years.”

    Forcing sex not violent – 79,007 boys out of 126,696 total boys = 62.35%
    Girls enjoy rape – 40,714 boys out of 126,696 total boys = 32.1% (one third)

    I have grown up in a world of violence, i know how it is how and hows are going there…and its getting worse that i can promise you…more white women are now being raped because black people are still angry because of apartheid, but seriously, they should get over it, if the aboriginals were treated worse than what the black people were treated in south africa, and the aboriginals can forgive the aussies, then i seriously think the black people should get over it…yes the black men believe raping a virgin so they can get rid of their hiv, then they shouldn’t have raped someone in the first place and should have prevented getting it, because if a mother is pregnant and she has hiv, the child have less of a change getting hiv than having it, because there are medication for that sort of thing…and seriously, raping a child less than 2years old is a bloody disgrace, i get sick thinking about it…i moved out of my country because i have more of a change of being raped and killed…south africa is the worlds capital of violent societies, and all that is cause by black people..i’m not racist, a lot of black people sais its the truth…

    At the beginning of the decade there were 40,000 White farmers in South Africa and there have been 3,037 murdered in racial genocide and more than 20,000 armed attacks perpetrated by groups of militant, young Black racists on commercial farmers, since the ANC came to power in 1994. The farmers are often raped first, tortured by having boiling water forced down their throats, tendons cut, burnings, personal humiliations….

    I hope this gives you enough reasons of why women are raped


  725. Sorry for my spelling…i get angry quickly thinking about it and it makes my grammar and spelling a lot worse than what it really is lol


  726. One more thing, I believe (so does a black priest in America, known by a lot of people, I will try to get the video again and post it on here) that apartheid was a good thing, it kept south africa in order, and it kept the black people in line…like i said before, i’m not racist, but when i was still living in south africa, all you see is black men faces everywhere, saying “wanted” on the posters, and all you see is “missing” white faces…since the black government took over in 1994, everything went down the hill, you can’t walk alone anymore at night or during the day, its to dangerous…i still remember how a black guy tried to force me mum out of her car so he could take it…luckily a white man helped us…you can’t own a farm anymore because you would definitely die…the whole violence in south africa at the moment is to kill all whites, there were posters all over to say “kill the boere”, (boere means white farmers) and i don’t even want to know whats happening now…i still have my father and my family there, and everyday i expect a call to say me dad or me family has been killed..and its a very sad thing…i’m more sad at the fact that the black people are still angry…i understand why they are angry, but killing people and raping people won’t chance a thing…yes i saw a couple of white faces saying the killed someone, but it was very rare, and when i did see a white face on a poster, i was really shocked because we barely see it…if i could
    recommend you watching “the lost girls of south africa”, you’ll see what i mean..


  727. Bulanik wrote:

    “Can’t even begin to tell you how wong you are, Allen.”

    – – –

    OMG! That is so wong…I mean…wrong. I can’t believe you did that!


  728. @Bianca

    “apartheid was a good thing”

    You think that forcing into a system of Apartheid the descendants of the people your evil ancestors tried to kill off and from whom they stole land and resources was “a good thing.” So, does that mean that you condone killing, stealing and oppression? So if a majority of South Africans thought whites were better off being oppressed b/c of their evil past, then should they be pushed off their land, forced into shantytowns and excluded from society?

    “i’m not racist, but”

    You’ve already shown how racist you are by trying to lead us to believe that all black men are violent. But, let’s not forget that your own kind has killed many more blacks since first arriving in S. Africa.

    “the whole violence in south africa at the moment is to kill all whites”

    If that were true, which it is not, then why are so many more blacks killed in South Africa than whites? And even if a few do want to “kill the boers” for their iniquitous acts, then so be it. They absolutely deserve it. Those are the consequences of an evil minority oppressing the majority.


  729. Abagond
    Concerning annual murder statistics – you gave:
    Blacks murdered 454 whites
    Whites murdered 209 blacks

    This can be viewed as blacks killing twice as many whites but I think one needs to take population into account. A minority population at 12% accounting for 454/663 – 68% of interracial murders.


  730. @ Brahms

    You could also look at it as blacks being more likely to be murdered by a white person:

    About 11 blacks in a million are murdered by a white person every year whereas only 1 white person in a million is murdered by a black person. Therefore blacks should be 11 times more afraid of whites than vice versa.

    In any case white fear of blacks has little to do with crime statistics. I know because of the utterly disingenuous way they twist the numbers. They are just looking to excuse their racist fears.

    The true root of their racist fear is the fear of revenge. It is one of the reasons they pick on rape so much, which otherwise seems strange.


  731. @abagond

    Well put…I started to respond to this, but knew you would do a much better job


  732. Abagond,

    You mentioned, “The true root of their racist fear is the fear of revenge. It is one of the reasons they pick on rape so much, which otherwise seems strange.”

    This is part one of why Tea Party sheeple are so upset with Obama in the White House. They fear for their lives that he, a man with African blood, will get back at the white man for slavery. Glenn Beck and Fox News lead the charge with that mess.

    In my opinion if they fear that someday historical karma will bite them in the caboose, then deep down they know they are responsible for the racism blacks face daily. They know their sense of pure goodness is a fraud, and they know that it won’t last forever. So, instead of owning up to it, they see reassurance that the sins of their fathers and the privileges they have today are justifiably earned.

    As a side note, Part Two is white entitlement, the mentality that they deserve all the power and privileges.


  733. Abagond – so blacks have more opportunity to attack a white than vice versa and this is the reason for the increased numbers – I’ve heard the argument. The problem is that in S Africa, the population proportions are switched and yet black on white violence is still much greater than white on black.
    The other issue is having hispanic offenders grouped as white while hispanic victims have their own category – the true amount of white on black violence is most likely much less.
    White fear of blacks has mostly to do with the persona many blacks employ; a public image which they chose. Stereotypes come from observation and always hold truth (yes, poor Southern whites are trashy, Irish like to drink) and blacks really do not tip (first hand knowledge).


  734. Brotherwolf

    “In my opinion if they fear that someday historical karma will bite them in the caboose, then deep down they know they are responsible for the racism blacks face daily. They know their sense of pure goodness is a fraud, and they know that it won’t last forever. So, instead of owning up to it, they see reassurance that the sins of their fathers and the privileges they have today are justifiably earned.”

    If my great great grandfather had slaves, am I responsible in some way?


  735. Brahms,

    In the first place, how do you know your ancestors didn’t have slaves. Whenever whites talk about history, that is one of a few events they want to avoid. Some don’t even know their history, national, family or personal.

    In the second place even if your family didn’t owned slaves, you still benefit from white privilege. And before you reject that statement, white privilege is not about having money; it’s about the privilege of having white skin.

    It’s funny. Some people are seemingly obsessed with black pathologies, but from the way they portray their arguments, it seems like they don’t think whites have any pathologies, and to bring it up is racist. I never saw a strange combination of needing us and hating us at the same time. You need us to hate. Plain and simple.


  736. My hypothetical is that my ancestors DID own slaves. Either way, white skin offers no advantage. What can I do that you cannot?


  737. @ hossenfefferbrahms:

    “Stereotypes come from observation and always hold truth (yes, poor Southern whites are trashy, Irish like to drink) and blacks really do not tip (first hand knowledge)”

    Those stereotypes are not always true….for example, studies have shown that Irish teens drink less than other European teens…and most blacks do tip (although studies show that at least 40% of waiters discriminate against them), but, please come to the bars I frequent and see how many whites do not tip at all. How you can define all southern whites as “trashy” is beyond me…first, what the hell does “trashy” mean, and how can you conclude that all southern whites fit that description?

    “Either way, white skin offers no advantage.”

    Does that explain why so many whites think blacks are inherently rapists (even though, historically, whites have raped far more black women)? Or why 95% of all US CEOs are white males, when white males make up less than 30% of the population? Or why blacks get longer jail sentences for the SAME crimes committed by whites in America? Or why white Americans have a better chance at getting a loan at a better rate than their similarly economically situated black counterparts?


  738. Brahms,

    You said, “My hypothetical is that my ancestors DID own slaves. Either way, white skin offers no advantage. What can I do that you cannot?”

    Have you forgotten that this post is not about slavery? So, I will not engage in any more conversations on the subject.

    But answering your question relating to the subject, you, as a white male, are seen as an individual by a stranger. You are most likely seen as an average human being that would never pose a threat to anyone. You are most definitely not seen as a potential rapist.

    I, on the other hand, a black male, is seen with suspicion. No matter how I would look clothing-wise, to strangers I am seen as someone who could harm about person. I am seen as a potential robber, gang-member, drug dealer, and even a rapist all because of the way I look.

    Here’s the real truth. Most rapes are intra-racial and not interracial. So, while there are white women who are scared of the big black rapist and there are white men obsessed that black men are after their women so much, the reality is that white women need to be much more afraid of white men than us.

    You know what’s really f*cked up, Brahms? You and other white male supremacists will not breathe a word on white male violence against white women. Hell, you won’t even talk about the problem of white female adult having sexual relationships with underage boys. And don’t even get me started on white male adults sexually assaulting and raping white children.

    And yes Brahms, it happens way more than you want to know.


  739. on Sun 16 Sep 2012 at 04:02:30 hossnfefferbrahms

    resjan

    Although I will convince you of nothing for your mind is closed, I will continue on for fun.

    Stereotypes:
    The Irish are known for drinking regardless of your study. Russians may drink more; American Indians drink more but the Irish drink more than white protestants. I’m Irish, I know.

    I said POOR Southern Whites not ALL Southern Whites. A people do not have to show 100% congruence of the behavior for a stereotype to reflect reality. Spousal abuse, child abuse, smoking, illiteracy, violence – that’s trashy and found at a higher rate than amongst poor whites in the north.

    A much lesser percentage of blacks tip than whites (better?)- I was a waiter and I’ve had blacks admit as much.

    To my query – how does white skin offer advantage? – you write:

    “Does that explain why so many whites think blacks are inherently rapists (even though, historically, whites have raped far more black women)? ”

    Not sure how this addresses my question.
    “Inherently” – no, that implies genetics and most make no such claim. Most will accept the statistics which show that although whites are responsible for the majority of rapes as you stated, blacks rape at a much higher rate.

    Or why 95% of all US CEOs are white males, when white males make up less than 30% of the population?
    Ability, desire, work ethic, good parents, absence of enabling from govt, society, etc.. Racism – hardly.

    Or why blacks get longer jail sentences for the SAME crimes committed by whites in America?
    Blacks are more often repeat offenders or involved with gangs, hence, more dangerous.

    Or why white Americans have a better chance at getting a loan at a better rate than their similarly economically situated black counterparts?
    Blacks have a higher default rate which is no different than charging blacks higher health insurance premiums (hypothetical) because of their great incidence of diabetes and hypertension.

    Blaming the ills of the black community on whites is called not taking responsibility. The government, education, and media all play this game. In the end, it enables poor behavior and worsens the black community – which is why blacks have deteriorated so much since Civil Rights. After rights were won blacks didn’t stop there. The focus then became not equality of rights but equality of position, wealth, material things; and if their isn’t complete equality, there must be racism – its completely illogical but its a nice excuse for irresponsible behavior.

    A black who applies to medical school, has a higher chance of getting in than a white with the same scores. FACT. That is called legally sanctioned racism.


  740. I am doing an assignment on black women and how they are disempowered in south africa…and since I have done this, I have gained a lot of respect for the black women in south africa, because I never knew this until i have started doing this assignment…the apartheid was a good thing, it kept everyone in line, i’m not saying this because i am a white person, but the same thing happened in australia, and every person in this world judge white people from south africa because of apartheid, but they dont point their fingers to aussies and yet they did the same things we did ages ago…worst is, there are still aboriginals in australia trying to get contact with their parents, even though they know they might never find out who their parents were…I have looked at so many websites trying to get reliable information about black women in south africa, and all i have found so far is black men raping black women…i am doing women studies at the moment and my teacher also teaches me what is going on, even though i am south african…i knew a lot of women have been raped when i still lived there, and that is all…i know A LOT of women, around 30, maybe more, black and white, and they all have been raped by black men…i admit i was saying to much earlier on, and i do apologise for everyone who read that…but everyone has their point of view, and mine is based on the things i know and by the people i know…i have gained so much respect for those black women, but i will not be able to gain respect for men…there are A LOT of black people i adore, i love them to bits, i still keep contact with them, and they were like family for me, and they still do, but sometimes you are just to afraid to trust after what you have heard…i know a young lady, she would be 13 now, and she was raped by 15black men, not all at once…now seriously, please do explain to me how i should change my point of view…and bulanik, i am not a black women and i wouldn’t know how it feels to be raped by a dad, so i couldn’t answer your question…i would have givin you someone’s contacts so you could see what i mean to be raped by someone, but i dont know you and i would never give someone else’s information to someone i dont know…


  741. Lost girls of south africa: part one

    part two

    part three

    part four

    part five

    part six

    part seven

    part eight


  742. Remember I told everyone about the black priest in America…here is what he has to say


  743. on Sun 16 Sep 2012 at 06:02:19 hossnfefferbrahms

    Brotherwolf

    You only have your black brothers to blame. Do you really expect people to not view blacks males with suspicion? Your energy should be directed at your own culture but you have bought into the myth that somehow whites cause blacks to behave badly.


  744. @ hossnfefferbrahms

    I’m interested, do you think that Whites had nothing at all to do with Blacks behaving badly, or do you think that it’s just exaggerated?


  745. To Abagond:

    About 11 blacks in a million are murdered by a white person every year whereas only 1 white person in a million is murdered by a black person. Therefore blacks should be 11 times more afraid of whites than vice versa.

    Per the DOJ data below your figures are not correct. (And would not have been correct going back to 1976)

    Between 2001 and 2005 on an annual basis 8.35 Blacks per 1 million were killed by people classified as White by the FBI which includes most Latinos.

    In the same years 3.27 Whites per 1 million were killed by Blacks. (Again the victims called White generally include Latinos…)

    Since the White population outnumbers the Black population by 6.7 to 1 so the offender murder rate per capita for Black perpetrators with White victims is 2.62 higher than White perpetrators and Black victims.

    http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/tables/ovracetab.cfm#numbers

    Also on a per capita basis Blacks are 87 times more likely to killed by another Black person than a White person.

    In any case white fear of blacks has little to do with crime statistics. I know because of the utterly disingenuous way they twist the numbers. They are just looking to excuse their racist fears.

    Clearly some Whites twist numbers and only nut cases fear Black grannies going to church or similar groups but Whites who live in Black neighborhoods with high crime rates have similar rates of victimization (and sometimes higher..) as their Black neighbors.


  746. @ Uncle Milton

    I was going off the figures Brahms was talking about and assumed 40 million blacks and 200 million whites and divided in my head. I was making a logical point, not a precise mathematical one.

    But even going by your numbers blacks are still more likely to be murdered by a white person than the other way round. But you quickly draw attention away from that by talking about offender rate.

    “Also on a per capita basis Blacks are 87 times more likely to killed by another Black person than a White person.”

    Not only is that beside the point but you brought that up without bringing up that whites are also way more likely to be killed by their own kind. Why did you leave that out?

    “Clearly some Whites twist numbers and only nut cases fear Black grannies going to church or similar groups but Whites who live in Black neighborhoods with high crime rates have similar rates of victimization (and sometimes higher..) as their Black neighbors.”

    Right, and there are safe, quiet black neighborhoods too. Half of blacks are middle-class (or were just before the Great Recession). Why did you leave that out?

    You are creating a twisted picture to excuse the fear of something (black-on-white murder) that is as rare as getting struck by lightning. Why is that? What is the purpose of it? Do you see what is going on?


  747. @ Uncle Milton

    “Clearly some Whites twist numbers and only nut cases fear Black grannies going to church or similar groups but Whites who live in Black neighborhoods with high crime rates have similar rates of victimization (and sometimes higher..) as their Black neighbors.”

    Unlike you I do not see those as “black” neighbourhoofs. First because I know that not all black neighbourhoods are like that. Hardly. Second because of the ones that are like that that I know about personally, the violence is driven mainly by the drug trade and the police doing little about it. Presumably because a) the police are on the take and b) do not give a fuck about black people.

    Further, it is strange for WHITES to make a big deal about this when a) It does not affect them personally, not most of them, and b) They do damn little about it that is serious. No, locking up random black and Latino men for having weed on them is not how you stop cocaine from crossing the border.

    So, yes, these crime statistics arguments seem utt