“My family never owned slaves” is something you hear White Americans say. Although not racist in itself it has the effect of turning a blind eye towards racism.
The statement by itself is true for most whites: even back in slave days in 1860 fewer than 2% of whites owned slaves! Slaves cost way too much for most people and in half the country it was against the law. On top of that millions of whites came to America long after the slaves were freed, like most Italians and Jews.
The trouble with the statement is not its truth but how it is used: to cut white people off from history. When they say black people live in the past and need to give the slave thing a rest, they are making the very same argument: history does not matter, it somehow magically does not affect anyone alive now. If we are affected at all by history it is only through our families, nothing else.
That is wishful thinking. America’s slave past still profoundly affects its present. Most white people, it seems, refuse to see that: it makes them uncomfortable. By saying “My family never owned slaves” they are trying to buy themselves a pass from American history, both past and present. As if their family had been living on some Robinson Crusoe island all these years – and still does.
Your ancestors did not have to own slaves to benefit – either then or now. If anything the opposite seems to be true: most descendants of slave owners seem to be black, not white, like the descendants of Thomas Jefferson. Most blacks are part white and most of that white comes from slave owners.
A white American saying “My family never owned slaves” is like the daughter of a Mafia boss wearing her diamonds and pearls and saying she never murdered anyone or shook anyone down for money. As if the diamonds and pearls fell from the sky.
America grew rich on the red man’s land worked by black slaves. For a long time cotton was the main thing America sold to other countries. Profits from cotton (made mainly in the North and in Britain, not in the South) in turn helped to underwrite the growth of the country’s industry. The racism that grew out of slavery kept most blacks at the bottom as a supply of cheap labour. That benefited all whites through lower prices.
Even today whites continue to benefit from racism in the form of better education, higher incomes, longer lives and all the other unearned benefits of white privilege that have grown out of slave days.
Whites want to benefit from their ugly past – and their less ugly present – but they do not want to face up to it and set things right. Two attempts were made – the civil war and the civil rights movement – but both were incomplete. “My family never owned slaves” becomes an excuse not to do anything more.
See also:
Good post, Abagond!
Great post! nothing more to add here.
I totally agree Well done Abagond!
I feel exactly what you’re saying, but I think this is one of those articles that preaches to the converted. I’m not sure that an average white person stumbling across this post is going to be able to read this and make any connection to him or herself. White privilege is difficult for whites to comprehend, or rather, difficult to for them to see how it’s relevant in the modern world. To the typical white person who thinks America is now “post-racial” because there’s a black president, I think more concrete examples will have to be given to them so they see the HOW of white privilege.
i always felt when talking about racist issues with someone its best to stick with the present and recent history (such as jim crow) but most importantly recent history because when you go as far back as slavery, it opens the door all the way for whites to dismiss the argument.
i mean, i know many issues stem from slavery, but since whites won’t listen to that, the best next thing is to prove the racist incidents happening today. which we all know is hard since most whites justify most racist incidents away and won’t listen to reason.
but at least when you stay in the present, and a white person gives that lousy “my family never owned slaves” argument, then you can call them on it and say “since when were we talking about slavery?”.
it just seems like when people use slavery as an example, they seem to lack other more recent examples that really apply to the time we are living in.
its kind of like how republicans only refer to slavery as their example of being for black rights. they lack any further examples to show they are for black rights.
Most people think people like me who lived during Jim Crow are dead. They also think I have lost my memory. Very interesting when people will contradict your life.
Abagond ,
I think what’s worst is when they tell you that Blacks owned slaves or that Africans sold more slaves than the Arabs. Of course they never say those Blacks had been separated because they were slave owners children ( they could own property, but had few other rights)or that tens of millions of slaves didn’t swim across the Atlantic.
ColorofLuv,
The majority of white voters voted Republican last election.
US. Census Bureau:
80% of population is white
13$ black
15% hispanic
5% Asian
uh… its proven, more than half the white population in this country voted for Obama. It is a fact!!!
^^^
Obama is in office due to a coalition of liberal whites and a solid voting block of minorities. And he didn’t exactly win by a landslide.
So it is both true that MOST whites did not vote for Obama, and it’s also true that without the significant minority of liberal whites and without minorities voting together in bloc, we would not have Obama in office.
It’s not an either/or thing.
Thanks for the follow up Tulio !!!
I’m trying to find more statistics. Maybe I got confused because I remember him Taking the state of IOWA in a landslide with somethin like 60% of the white vote. I remember is was a slam dunk in a virtually “all white” state.
I’m trying to double check…
Obama won 44% of the white vote.
I think “my family never owned slaves” (when used in arguments) is attempt for white people to make themselves look completely free of racism, not just in a way they’re not racists (hey, in theory, someone whose family once owned slaves, or who had Nazis in his family could be a good person)- but that is not the point. Or the problem.
The problem is in the fact white people do not see their privilege. It looks like most of them can’t understand how they can be privileged. I do think that’s the step one- to make white people learn about the white privilege. Or they would not be able to understand how “my family never owned slaves” argument doesn’t make sense.
I am not trying to sound preachy here. I am the first one who don’t really understand how white privilege works. The first time I was told I had a white privilege (happened on this same site, and Abagond was the one who told me), I thought it was completely ridiculous. To be honest, I still can’t picture myself as having any white privilege in America (because I am completely under the impression that being a foreigner from a “questionable” part of the world would wipe out any white skin privilege – but simply because that’s something that affects my group). It would be nice (well, not nice, but interesting) to test the privilege/discrimination thing and see what happens.
Also:
America grew rich on the red man’s land worked by black slaves.
This.
Obama won 44% of the white vote.
And what percentage of whites are democrats? (In a way they always vote for a democratic candidate)?
ColorofLuv,
I believe you are thinking about the democratic primaries, when it was believed that Iowa would “make or break” Obama, meaning it would determine whether he had a real shot at securing the nomination.
Here in Australia you can hear similar arguments relating to the Aborigines, not in regard to slavery but disposession and other aspects of colonial violence
“My ancestors never killed any Aborigines”, etc, etc.
Now personally, I’m fairly sure that none of my ancestors had anything directly to do with oppressing Aborigines. But I cannot forget that I am someone who enjoys the benefits of a wealthy society built on the subjugation of indigenous people and the theft of their land. Australia is much like the US in this way; a wonderful place to live, but it could not exist without an ugly past of murder, theft and injustice.
That’s why I think Tim Wise is instrumental. If blacks say what he’s saying, it can easily be dismissed by whites as just another black whining again. I think a white man talking powerfully and articulately about white privilege makes whites sit up in their seats.
^^
I’ve seen some white people still deny white privilege after reading or watching Tim Wise AND reading “Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack.” Some even believe they are the ones who are less privileged since they don’t have special “clubs” or “affirmative action.”
Natasha W,
Those complaints of “special clubs” and (especially) scholarships for minorities and HBCU’s get me especially riled up. It’s a perfect example of white privilege (and no understanding of history in the country).
I don’t think they ever stop to think that the Harvards, Yales, Ole Miss’, Vanderbilts and UPenn’s of this country ARE historically white, even if (now days) not explicitly stated.
I think a lot of them become conditioned to tune out what minorities have to say because it’s so common to see PoC dismissed as whining, being ungrateful or “reverse racists”. I don’t think there’s actual THOUGHT and reason going on when they make the outlandish statements they do.
Itsmeagain,
I don’t think there’s actual THOUGHT and reason going on when they make the outlandish statements they do.
Yes there’s quite a bit. I actually read where a white student was awfully upset and claimed reversed discrimination over their admission denial, with their 11 point margin on the SAT of a Black student. That was a few years after the Bakke case, so I don’t remember the source.
Heard some whites call Tim Wise Jewish because he speaks against white racism. I never heard him call himself jewish.
No, Tim Wise definitely has called himself a Jew.
http://www.counterpunch.org/wise06152005.html
“I am a Jew who was raised to think that part of my cultural tradition was to question everything I was told by authority figures, which by necessity includes my rabbi and the ADL.”
By some definitions he is not. (his mother is gentile like mine…)
America grew rich on the red man’s land worked by black slaves. For a long time cotton was the main thing America sold to other countries. Profits from cotton (made mainly in the North and in Britain, not in the South) in turn helped to underwrite the growth of the country’s industry.
How were profits mostly made in North and not the South..? I open to the idea but I would like to see a link on that. I had read before the civil that the wealthiest cities were in the South. Cotton trading and ports were almost exclusively in the South. For the most part whatever wealth was developed by slavery was destroyed or substantially reduced by the civil war. The poorest regions of the US were until the 1960s the former slave states. Slavery certain produced wealth for a privileged few but in my opinion reduced the overall wealth and potential of the US.
Look at the country (Portugal) that traded and profited (per capita) the most from Africa slaves was and still is the poorest in Western Europe.
The wealthiest countries of Europe, Sweden, Norway, Switzerland, and Luxembourg. Never had colonies (well Norway was a colony of Sweden) nor were involved in the slave trade. Slavery reduces human capital which brings relative poverty to nations which engage/engaged in it compared to countries which were free from slavery, slave trading, and serfdom.
If you believe that the US is rich from slaves then why is Canada also rich..? (Canada did have slavery but at a much reduced level than the US.. and most of the slaves were house servants not field hands..)
That said you won’t get an argument from me for greater investment in human capital in the Black community.
thanks, now I have someplace to refer my white friends when they bring this up…
This is definitly a good subject to address. I think it depends on the context.And , its more like there are far fewer context that it would be posible to use “my family didnt own slaves”, as compared to an excuse to not confront racism and discrimination as it exists today in Amercan society ( lets be clear we are talking about American society here).
Actualy, being in another country that had slaves, more slave trade than the USA, and who abolished slavery in the late 1880′s and people still brought slaves in illegaly after, it is more clear than ever , how slavery passes down enormous burdens , obsticles,and discrimination, generation after generation , the way wealth and privlege can be passed down generation after generation. Many people do escape the boot of poverty that was a legacy for most black Americans, but , they cant escape the discriminitory mentalities that have been passed down generation to generation , some , actualy brutal, Others subtile false lies and promises and manipulations .
Again, after reading those cold blooded statements Lincoln made , about what he wouldnt do “for the negro”, and what he felt “the negro ” was and did or didnt deserve, you actualy see great white American men show their inner reality of how they relate to black Americans . Lincoln was trying to reach out to the defeated southern white man , to try and heal a country that had just been through one of the most brutal and bloody civil wars anywhere.That doesnt lesson the sting of the seemingly cold veiw of “the negro, and there is the deep down inside ring that quite a few white Americans aproximate the same cold unwillingness to really accept black American as their equals in the wealth and riches. Oh , some blacks get it, but its a stuggle every step.
Herneith gave what seemed to be an acurate ascesment that Lincoln really went to war for economic reasons, slavery really didnt have anything to do with it. And we have to realise that the average white men in the army, didnt hear that truth, they heard they were going down to free the slaves,and, it is just a fact that thousands of white men died horrible bloody deaths , going to , as they would put it (i read this somewhere) ” we are going down fighting this war to free the n-word”, which, there again, is that stinging discriminating , seperate , distancing , that even as these men gave their lives for something that wasnt really true , there is a bad taste in it.
It is complex , but, at the bottom , is some basic inability to accept black American into their rightful place into American society. Every step is struggle, a step somewhat ackowledged in a patronizing way, with even laws on the books, but, when a black man and a white man go looking for a job, we all know the real reality that the white man will in much greater odds, get the job.And it plays out in other areas.
But, if we can see this and understand that, it is only another good thing to understand all the players in the history of sub sahara African slave trade. To leave out the Arabs , or the African tribes who conquered the slaves, or the European business men and merchants and their crews to do the transport, all the countries in the Americas that had slaves just isnt the whole picture.Its good to know the whole story , and the truth, if its not used as an excuse to deny racism and discrimination and the legacy slavery has really left right in society now…
And, one of the few excpetions I would make is , why a woman would use as an excuse that all white American represent the history of slavery in his background, to not date? Its the white man who is using todays excuse about being against affirmative action or who baits Obama and Michele in a real put down , almost blatently racist way, who is the guy that you dont want to date.Who would chew on the n word around his freinds but comes on sexualy to a black woman.These of course , are men riding the negative white mentality of that streak passed down from the cival war, and before, even if its white immigrants, they learned fast in th USA.
But at least a black woman or man, can think the idea in general of dating white people is just a turn off ,because of these reasons and just general racism in society and choose to stay away from dating white people all together, or , they can put aside things like thinking the history of slavery in America is not the same for every white person, they ought to be judged on how they really are right now.
Uncle Milton,
Within 2 hundred years the US as a nation grew to the largest economy in the world. Canada has never ranked close to the US.
http://www.economywatch.com/economies-in-top/
Within 2 hundred years the US as a nation grew to the largest economy in the world. Canada has never ranked close to the US.
I am referring to per capita wealth. The link says that China is second wealthiest country surpassing Japan and Germany but on per capita basis China is decidedly poorer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29_per_capita
Uncle Milton,
Check out the CIA fact book on richest countries ranking. They do per capita income. I think Liechtenstein is first.
Check out the CIA fact book on richest countries ranking. They do per capita income. I think Liechtenstein is first.
Yes my Wikipedia link about in my previous post has per capita income estimates from 3 different sources including the CIA Factbook. Ahh to be a Liechtensteinian. Or would it be a Liechtensteiner..?
On swpd macon d had a post on this and how his friend family actually did own slaves,
http://stuffwhitepeopledo.blogspot.com/2009/10/point-out-that-theyve-never-owned.html
Willow wrote,
So now I’m wondering, what about people whose ancestors *did* own slaves? What do they say? “Oh, but my ancestors were nice to their slaves…”?!
That’s exactly what they say! Or at least what some of them say. In fact, I’ve heard that often enough, from several different descendants of slave-owners, that I’ve been considering a post on it, something like “claim that slaves were treated well.” Also, I have a friend who just went on a plantation tour in the American South. I asked (sarcastically) if the tour guide talked about how nicely the slaves had been treated. “Basically, yes,” she said. “And other than that, the whole presentation just sort of glossed over the whole issue of slavery.”
I can find the other post but Macon d said he was talking to a friend and her family did own slaves and how they were treated nicely and when slavery was abolished of course the slaves didn’t have anything so they came “right back home”
Itsmeagain
I’ve been on several websites for these “museums” and what really INFURIATES me is that fact that most of these plantations (: Oak Alley, Houmas House, Destrehan, Myrtles and Nottoway House etc.) are being used for WEDDINGS! Weddings! You know, even the slave quarters at Nottoway have been converted into “Cottages on the Lake”. The disrespect is unnerving. Who the hell would want to spend a romantic weekend on property stained by the blood of hundreds. There’s no telling what kind of tragedy those estates have seen, and these idiots are having picnics on the back lawn.
The whole thing just turns my stomach.
See that is some freshly squeezed bull crap right there who the hell would do that? that’s like buliding a spa on a burial ground it’s one big f-u! Not trying to turn something bad into something nice.
I think “White Privilege” is a misnomer. If you live in a country where you are part of the majority you are treated fairly, if you are part of the minority you tend to get treated unfairly. I have spoken to white people who live in Japan and they speak about how the Japanese tend to be racist towards white people, and a Japanese boss is more likely to hire another Japanese person over a white person. They don’t have Asian Privilege, but they do have an advantage. Maybe you should change it to Majority Privilege. In the end the majority has the advantage not the skin color.
“My family never owned slaves” “they are trying to buy themselves a pass from American history, both past and present.”
My family is of Irish decent, and in fact were enslaved for hundreds of years by the British. There have been whites that have suffered just as much from slavery as blacks, but this never gets talked about. In the 16th and 17th the Irish were known to be beaten to death more readily then black slaves because they were cheaper and more numerous. Irish women were forced to have sex with black men to create a larger slave population.
“Whites want to benefit from their ugly past – and their less ugly present – but they do not want to face up to it and set things right.”
I have faced up to my ugly past but it is not up to me to set things right, we human beings as a whole need to set things right.
To Ó Dachartig:
Irish women were forced to have sex with black men to create a larger slave population.
Do you have a link to a site that describes this..? Many of he original colonies outlawed sex between the races fairly early on (I think Virginia was the first..) For the most part it was not really enforced between white men and black women but it was enforced between black men and white women. There may have been some isolated incidents where a slave owner forced white women and black men to procreate but I believe it was rare.
For reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-miscegenation_laws
“It has been argued that the first laws banning all marriage between whites and blacks, enacted in Virginia and Maryland, were a response by the planter elite to the problems they were facing due to the socio-economic dynamics of the plantation system in the Southern colonies. However, the bans in Virginia and Maryland were established at a time when slavery was not yet fully institutionalized. At the time, most forced laborers on the plantations were indentured servants, and they were mostly white. Some historians have suggested that the at-the-time unprecedented laws banning interracial marriage were originally invented by planters as a divide and rule tactic after the uprising of servants in Bacon’s Rebellion. According to this theory, the ban on interracial marriage was issued to split up the racially mixed, increasingly mixed-race labor force into whites, who were given their freedom, and blacks, who were later treated as slaves rather than as indentured servants. By outlawing interracial marriage, it became possible to keep these two new groups separated and prevent a new rebellion.“
itsmegain said:
“I’ve been on several websites for these “museums” and what really INFURIATES me is that fact that most of these plantations (: Oak Alley, Houmas House, Destrehan, Myrtles and Nottoway House etc.) are being used for WEDDINGS! Weddings!”
The plantation mansion pictured at the top of this post is of Oak Alley.
@ Uncle Milton:
First, welcome back!
Second: most of the wealth created by the slaves did not go to the slave owners, like people think, but to the middle men. In this case that means the American North and Britain. Just as today most of the money made on a Barbie doll does not go to the factory owner in China.
I found that out reading Braudel. I ran across it again a few weeks ago reading about the history of Haiti: Haiti used to produce more wealth than all of English-speaking North America and yet most of that wealth went where? To France. France created Haiti not for the greater good of Haitians but for the greater good of the ruling class of France. Thus Toussaint L’Ouverture.
America started out the same way. Part of why America broke away from Britain was that the shipowners and merchants of New England wanted what they thought of as their rightful share of the action. America was created in the interests of Britain, not in the interests of Americans. Read Tom Paine.
@ Ó Dachartig:
I need to do some posts on the history of Ireland and Irish Americans. I do not think American history and particularly Black American history can be properly understood otherwise. In fact I hereby declare March as Irish History Month on this blog.
@ Uncle Milton:
Slavery was bad for slaves and so from a human capital point of view America was shooting itself in the foot – and still is because of racism. I do not disagree with that.
But that is taking a long-term AMERICAN view of it, a view that is rare among White Americans.
From a short-term white point of view both slavery and now racism make a great deal of sense. Both screw black people for the benefit of whites – and harm America overall.
Apart from a few nuts, white people do not walk out their door in the morning saying, “I am going to screw black people”. But they do not have to: their forefathers set up the country to, in fact, screw black people for the benefit of whites. It is still going on. White people tend to think America is a colour-blind meritocracy but if they were black their view would be a bit more nuanced.
The English oppressed the Scottish, The Welsh and the Irish. In the fifties, people had signs No Blacks, no Irish, no dogs. They were also more likely to marry each other as they were outcasts. Mass migration occured of Irish to America because the English made them farm one type of potato which caused the Irish potato famine where millions died. The crops were diseased. They also dance with their arms held tightly at their sides. The English outlawed their language, Gaelic, I think, and dancing. So when dancing, if they kept their arms to the side, the patrolling English couldn’t see through a window their feet moving. White people arent the same like Africans are not all the same. They have had their tribal warfare(clans). The difference is that an Irish could change their name and accent in one generation to assimilate with the English. An African’s descendants would have to marry White through generations in order to assimilate fully.
Some Irish feel a deep kinship with Blacks because they suffered as oppressed people under the English. That’s why you see people Bono from the musical group U2 fighting desperately for Africa to combat AIDS and poverty. They’ve felt that pain of being the underclass. U2 was alway one of my fav bands. Their stock went up when they created the Red Credit card to help Africa. Bono is truly a humanitarian, not a racist.
Angel – good post…
The Irish were used “essentially” as slave labor for the longest time in Great Britain.
For the reasons you mention above, this is why many African Americans actually have Irish last names. There was a lot of interaction between the Black and Irish communities long ago.
abagond, you wrote:
“By saying “My family never owned slaves” they are trying to buy themselves a pass from American history, both past and present. As if their family had been living on some Robinson Crusoe island all these years – and still does.”
As if their family had been LIVING IN ANOTHER COUNTRY all these years. They were. The US is a nation of immigrants.
A huge percentage of today’s Americans are descended from people who arrived in the US AFTER the Civil War.
But that fact is irrelevant. Contrary to black economics, slavery contributed little to the sustained wealth of this country. Today, there are no Rockefeller-like fortunes linked to slavery.
The belief that America’s wealth derives from the labor of slaves is a myth almost matching the myths of black intellectual achievements in Africa.
angel, you wrote:
“The English oppressed the Scottish, The Welsh and the Irish. In the fifties, people had signs No Blacks, no Irish, no dogs.”
In the fifties? Yeah. The 1850s.
No No_Slappz
Why are you speaking of things you do not know – or is that a silly question on my part ha ha ha??
You do not even live in the UK and yet you are going to contradict soomeone – who sounds as if s/he does live here…I do not know if this is the case or not.
Irrespective of my last comments what Angel said is
very true
A case of Slappz stick comedy…Don’t you think so?? ha ha ha
abagond, I get the feeling you simply spin your ideas from the top of your head.
There is no basis in history and economics to support your claims about the impact of slavery on the US economy. Or the supposedly widespread benefits of the practice.
The US economy was largely agrarian in the South, but the North moved into manufacturing well before the Civil War. It is clear to me you do not know much about the evolution of the American economy, thus, you default to these mythical tales of how the current wealth of the nation owes everything to slavery.
However, based on your reasoning, Microsoft, headquartered in the state of Washington, owes a debt to slavery.
Capatilism and Slavery by Eric Williams
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=B6AWWVGBaswC&dq=capitalism+and+slavery+eric+williams&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=3QuIS4vwCqS60gT9wNXMCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CB0Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=&f=false
This is the same argument as when people today say: I don’t support child labor, sweatshops, deforestation etc in third world countries. Just because you don’t see it in your back yard doesn’t mean the products you buy aren’t produced using these practices.
We are all part of the system to a greater or lesser degree. What our ancestors did (can’t be changed) may be less interesting than what we do now (can be changed).
J:
No Slappz only believes the facts he wants to believe. For example, Senegal is full of black people so it must have a high murder rate – despite whatever the statistics say. Or if Philip Roth says he did not write “The Human Stain” about Anatole Broyard, well Roth is simply wrong.
Despite his good spelling and vocabulary skills he is easily the poorest reader among my regular commenters.
Angel, that’s interesting what you say about the Irish identifying with Black american oppression. I identify with the Irish myself for the same reason, I also am of part Irish descent.
ha ha!!
I will be honest at first he had some ‘interesting’ comments from his ‘perspective’ – but what he has had to say off late leaves a lot to be desired, and I am being very generous in my choice of words.
What I don’t understand, is if this personal vendetta against you.?? Although the internet is a free-space etc. Having his own board, I am sure he himself would like ‘positive’ contributions to that board, and hence have this understanding with regard to yours, even if he does not agree with your ‘racial politics’.
Personally any individual who is secure in his/her belief system would not spend time, elsewhere debating others on the issue of race, especially when he knows his own view is contradictory to the status quo.
I guess the staying here aruguing helps to convince and/or reinforce his belief system, which he probably doubts is correct.
Only insecurity, or a vendetta would keep such a person here.
Just me playing Fanon…Didn’t someone say I had been reading to much of it ha ha ha ha??
My relatives were part of the mass migration from the Carribean to England. They experienced seeing the signs No Irish, No Blacks. It was a blessing in disguise because the West Indians ended up buying property because no one would give them a room. And if they married white people, it tended to be almost always Irish back then as they were discriminated against by the English. If you want to get an Irish, Scottish or Welsh person upset, call them English. Even today, they are still upset with how the English oppressed their language and culture.
To Uncle Milton
“Many of he original colonies outlawed sex between the races fairly early on (I think Virginia was the first..) For the most part it was not really enforced between white men and black women but it was enforced between black men and white women.”
Most of this happened under British rule of America, and the largest majority of Irish were sent to the Caribbean.
Here are some links:
http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/sesostris-the-great-the-egyptian-hercules/the-irish-slave-trade-forgotten-white-slaves/
http://www.raceandhistory.com/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl/noframes/read/1638
http://www.revisionisthistory.org/forgottenslaves.html
Just a bit of common sense, please: White Americans had slaves for hundreds of years. Clearly it made them money otherwise slave owners would be out on fhe street and other whites would avoid the practice. And, given how they were morally uncomfortable with it but did it anyway, it must have made them quite a bit of money. Not to say there were not planters who lost everything, like Jefferson – but as a whole they had to have made money off of slavery or it would have died out on its own (and not through war).
Once again – glad you brought up some of the history on the Irish.
Slavery is not about “Black & White”. Slavery is as old as the age of Human Kind.
Whether it was the Egyptians, the Moors, The English, the Ottomans (Turkish Empire), the Incans, it was slavery. (and the list goes on) Here in the “New World”, the most recent slavery was that of White Americans engaging in the slave trade from Africa, and consequently why slavery in general is seen as a predominantly White vs. Black.
Other than Genocide, SLAVERY IS THE GREATEST CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY.
Because it is not commonly taught in the history books, people seldom discuss the fact that the INCA in South America enslaved, conquered and eradicated many of the other indigenous cultures throughout the Andes. The Inca empire spanned almost 2,000 miles and did so because of slaves. One ethnic group that to this day proudly defines themselves as “non-Inca” descendants is the Aymara. They were one of the few groups able to resist the Inca Empire why they still hold on to their language and culture.
People forget that even today slavery still exists in this world. Fortunately, there are watchdog groups out there working to eradicate this terrible crime.
I just wish we could all come together and stop this black/white hate propaganda.
Ó Dachartaigh –
Wow… I am Irish descendant and really appreciate some of the links! I knew the Irish were treated as the lowest forms of life but did not know they were actually sold and shipped as well.
Thanks for adding to my education and knowledge on the subject.
KNOWLEDGE IS POWER!
abagond,
Slavery as a source of labor is subject to the same realities of the marketplace as any other source of labor.
If slaves were acquired at a low enough price, it was possible for slave-owners to utilize them profitably.
The question of owning a slave versus paying an hourly worker is the standard economic question of “buying a machine outright, or renting it.”
When automation was still a dream and most work was unskilled, it was possible for slavery to have the economic edge. However, well before the Civil War, things were changing and slavery was turning into a money-loser.
Given the direction the US economy was taking in the second half of the 19th century, the South would have collapsed had there been no Civil War and had the Confederacy attained its sovereignty. The Civil War hastened the pace.
The Confederacy would have collapsed because it was failing to change with the times. Agriculture was becoming more mechanized, which raised worker productivity beyond levels slaves could match.
Hence, the market value of slaves was declining. When assets — slaves — lose value, a chain of events put pressure on operating results.
Funny.
On Macon’s site when I mentioned the history of the Irish, I was accused of trying to use that to defend african slavery.
But here’s a question, Abagond…
You claim that slavery is a major part of what has made the American economy relatively competitive and successful, correct?
Land stole from the Indians, too, right?
So….
Why isn’t Brazil also an economic superpower, given that we stole MORE land and had MORE slaves?
I mean if these are indeed the keys to economic success, we should be sitting pretty, right?
The Irish faced oppression and discrimination because most Irish are Catholic.
The anti-Irish sentiments were rooted in opposition to Catholicism, not the Irish themselves.
This may be perhaps a slight simplification of the facts. Especially if you start at the very beginning when Norman/French England invaded Ireland making its England first colony.
Remember the Irish were of Gaelic descent…
Personally I would say the English did/do have a dislike of the Irish per se.
Though of course you are correct to say that religion is/was an issue in the whole affair.
Good point Thad… Brazil imported more slaves than any other country and currently 80% of the total population as some African blood.
I often compare Brazil to U.S. since both have many similarities historically and economically. The primary economic difference being the Industrial Revolution here while Brazil remained primarily based in Agriculture/Minerals.
J –
not so sure on the slight simplification of facts regarding the Irish slaves and discrimination.
It would be interesting to see what Angel has to say since he (or she?) has a more personal experience with this.
If I understood correctly what No_Slappz was referring to…
I took his last response as a refutation of Angel’s position
that the Irish are:
“Even today, they are still upset with how the English oppressed their language and culture.”
To which No_Slappz replied:
“…The anti-Irish sentiments were rooted in opposition to Catholicism, not the Irish themselves”.
Perhaps No_Slappz may come and clarify what he was referring to and/or even expand upon his position.
If I have erred in my interpretation – then do forgive me.
I do find this idea insulting that knowing my family didn’t own slaves somehow makes me complicit. I’m Irish, with family that lived in the NYC ghetto, and built the railroad (not so much by choice, thank you). They worked in sweatshops, and were denied education. Yet, apparently, they are at fault. I voted for Obama because of his outstanding qualifications, personal drive, and standing on various issues, but apparently, according to above posters, this isn’t really the case. It was because of my guilt, or naivete or God knows what else. As a female I make a lower income than males, but apparently even though I obviously have no power to affect this, I am at fault for wage disparity amongst the races. I just grow livid when there is a presumption that because I am white I am racist. There seems to be no acceptable argument to combat this.
J – ah sorry…
I was referring to some previous comments by Angel, who is Black and in the UK and his (or hers) personal experience with this.
Also by another poster: Ó Dachartaigh
“Many of he original colonies outlawed sex between the races fairly early on (I think Virginia was the first..) For the most part it was not really enforced between white men and black women but it was enforced between black men and white women.”
Most of this happened under British rule of America, and the largest majority of Irish were sent to the Caribbean.
Here are some links:
http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/sesostris-the-great-the-egyptian-hercules/the-irish-slave-trade-forgotten-white-slaves/
http://www.raceandhistory.com/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl/noframes/read/1638
http://www.revisionisthistory.org/forgottenslaves.html
Katy – I feel you! I am currently in a position making a very low wage and have many Black Friends that make Way MORE money than I do. (By the way, Best BOSS I ever worked for was a Vice President who was female and Black. I have never had the pleasure of working for such an outstanding person in my entire professional career.)
She retired and the team went down hill.
1. I’m white
2. I’m male
3. I’ve lost my job twice to the economy and been unemployed for months at a time taking anything I could to help pay bills.
4. I am a Military Veteran (should help, right? nope)
5. I put myself through college after I got out of the military on my own. (no scholarships, no help, just my money and two jobs – plus GI Bill from the military)
6. I am mult-lingual: Portuguese, Spanish, English
7. I am making nowhere near what I used to make before this economy hit.
I am currently the only WHITE-Non Latino in my company. I was able to get this job because of the languages I speak. (THANK GOD!!!)
I feel for ANYBODY suffering without a job right now. Been there done that and thankful I’m back in the game “fighting the good fight!”
I am in the UK too…I have got my own experiences as well even though I am not Irish
Just a little secret there ColorofLuv – but remember not to tell anyone he he
Cool J !!! (did not know!) thanks for the comments…
To Abagond and others re the Irish:
I remember seeing some cartoons that portrayed Irish people as apes and such, I found a website that has reprinted them:
http://www.nde.state.ne.us/SS/irish/unit_2.html
Some of these portrayals were still common as late as the 1970s.
As for no_slappz comments about anti Irish sentiment and Catholicism… to the best of my knowledge the same stereotypes did not exist about the French who by and large are also Catholic. (Indeed it was common for the upper class British and Americans to learn French to show a sense of refinement….)
Awesome paper Uncle Milton!
From WEB Du Bois himself!!!!
“W.E.B. Du Bois, founder of the NAACP, and the preeminent historian on slavery in the Americas, wrote: “Any attempt to consider the attitude of the English colonies toward the African slave-trade must be prefaced by a word as to the attitude of England herself and the development of the trade in her hands.”
Du Bois gives us a logical starting place for discussing racism and the legacy of slavery in America: it begins with the “Mother Country’s” dominant role in the Atlantic slave trade. Before all white Europeans are lumped together with the British as colonists and slave keepers, let us consider Britain’s treatment of the Irish and the Africans, and the many parallels of subjugation and enslavement to be drawn.”
The Irish in England were seen as slovenly,lazy, irresponsible. This stereotype also included the men habitually drinking away their wages the minute they got paid then finishing off the weekend by coming home to a grungy 2 roomed house to beat the wife. Birth control was a no-no as well so the stereotypical Irish wife was perpetually pregnant with already a huge broad of unruly, out of control kids. If you want to get an idea of how life was rough in Ireland, read books by Frank McCourt. His book chronicles the misery of growing up in Ireland dirt poor. Even if you want to see another side of English oppression, watch Braveheart. It’s historically inaccurate but the basic gist of the story,(English abusing the Scots) is true. It also shows that White American mentality is different from Scottish mentality which is different from Welsh and Irish mentality. What White people in America think on race, culture and standards can be 360 degrees different from a White European.
To Angel:
What White people in America think on race, culture and standards can be 360 degrees different from a White European.
Ummm.. wouldn’t that be 180 degrees…?
360 means you come back to where you started…
uncle milton, you wrote:
“As for no_slappz comments about anti Irish sentiment and Catholicism… to the best of my knowledge the same stereotypes did not exist about the French who by and large are also Catholic. (Indeed it was common for the upper class British and Americans to learn French to show a sense of refinement….)”
Yeah. Nothing but peace and harmony between France and England for the last thousand years.
The points in life on which the Irish and English differ are found mainly in the clash between Catholicism and Protestantism.
The presence of the English Channel had something to do with why some of the same religious issues were less of a driving force separating the English and the French.
Meanwhile, a little mockery of one group by another hardly matters. But punitive laws and battle cries are something else.
When it comes to punitive laws driven by religious and political zealotry, you should consider the Spanish Inquisition — the Catholics against Jews and others not sufficiently loyal to Torquemada and the Pope.
Lol. Thanks. It’s a figure of speech which I totally agree doesn’t make sense. Doing a 360 where i’m from means a change completely opposite of the original…
Katy,
Your Irish family although they faced discrimination, never dealt with legalized segregation. Never were they treated as livestock rather than people in this country. They were allowed to intermarry with other groups, and they now have assimilated into being white, including being able to partake in white privilege, which many whites fail to acknowledge.
Yes Irish people were discriminated again, but they have managed to mainstream. With a legacy of slavery and Jim Crow, blacks still have not been accepted, and at this rate never will.
To no_slappz:
Yeah. Nothing but peace and harmony between France and England for the last thousand years.
Fierce rivals yes, but nonetheless British and American upper class saw the French as cultured and refined. The British had some control of France in the 15th century but were never able to replace the French political and legal institutions and language unlike what happened in the Ireland. Ireland was a colony of Britain for centuries….France was not.
The presence of the English Channel had something to do with why some of the same religious issues were less of a driving force separating the English and the French.
Then why didn’t the Irish sea have the same effect (or lack thereof…) on Anglo-Irish relations..?
To Katy
“Your Irish family although they faced discrimination, never dealt with legalized segregation. Never were they treated as livestock rather than people in this country.”
When the first large wave of Irish immigrants came to this country there was legalized segregation, there were “Irish need not apply” signs everywhere. Irish people could not get jobs, eat at the same restaurants or go to the same churches that other white Americans could.
As far as being treated like livestock here are some links you should check out, please read them carefully. The Irish were just as mistreated as Blacks, not only that but they were enslaved for a longer period of time.
http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/sesostris-the-great-the-egyptian-hercules/the-irish-slave-trade-forgotten-white-slaves/
http://www.raceandhistory.com/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl/noframes/read/1638
http://www.revisionisthistory.org/forgottenslaves.html
Hey Abagond
I think this Preacher has something to say to you!!
^Such a house negro.
In the beginning of the video, he was making some sense. Blacks do have issues that have nothing to do with racism and that should be addressed, such as the large number of single-parent households. However, when a white American makes a statement which is full of ignorance, and yes, based in racist sentiments (whether they realize it or not), I don’t see anything wrong with calling them out on it. Or would they prefer to stay ignorant?
Yes, It’s wonder, how white folks can live with themselves. I mean really.
Their history and their consciousis is one that is so ugly, destructive, vulgar, hateful and vile. And they wonder why Black people are angry, and distrusting of them.
What a WRETCHED bunch!
God bless’em.
As well, after slavery ended in the Caribbean, they tricked East Indians into coming over to work as “indentured servants”
They were also abused, payed barely enough to live on and had to leave families back in India, sadly never to return. My background in addition to African is also Sikh Punjabi, Hindu and Muslim yet my ancestors were forced to give up their religion and language.
The British had no respect for their names. They gave them Christian names and misspelled their Indian names or dropped their last names.
As a result, many of my relatives from the same Carribean island have different spellings of one name that phonetically sounds the same.
There was heavy duty brainwashing as well into believing Whites are superiour. As a result, if you meet an East Indian from a Caribbean country where there is a large community of them, a significant amount are obsessed with marrying ANY White person.
Some would gladly and proudly marry a White gas station gas pumper or a White person on welfare rather than a Black Doctor.
For the radicals, racism is not about prejudice but about imaginary structures of domination, which are evidenced in any disparities in the status of blacks and whites, that appear to them to be detrimental to blacks. Just as Marxists are convinced that there is class “oppression” when everyone is not economically equal, so race radicals claim that racial oppression exists when any disparity appears between racial groups. As long, that is, as the disparity works against the “oppressed.” No one, for example, argues that the diminishing presence of whites in major athletics is the result of a racial conspiracy by blacks or that it requires a government remedy.
uncle milton, you asked:
“Then why didn’t the Irish sea have the same effect (or lack thereof…) on Anglo-Irish relations..?”
But you had already answered your own question.
“Ireland was a colony of Britain for centuries….France was not.”
jalylah, you wrote:
“For the radicals, racism is not about prejudice but about imaginary structures of domination…”
Nicely put.
Slappz, is that one of your two or three regular posters at your blog? I mean Jaylah.
Maybe their family never owned slaves, but I wonder how many had descendants who participated in lynchings (watched, picnic, traveled from the next town over, collected and mailed souvenirs)? Especially those with families deeply rooted in the South.
^^^^^^^^^
I was waiting for the real point of your posts. Why didn’t you write so in the first place?
Herneith, I knew it was coming too. It’s always coming, lol.
Believe me they didn’t get “White Privilege” they earned privilege.
http://tigger.uic.edu/~rjensen/~irish.gif
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/38/Punch_Anti-Irish_propaganda_%281882%29_Irish_Frankenstein.jpg
http://chnm.gmu.edu/courses/magic/news/irish3.gif
To Natasha W
I don’t get it you act like your the only people that have ever suffered from discrimination. I understand that Black people are discriminated against in America but so are many other Races and Religions as well. If your an Atheist in this country it you may as well be black. Better not tell your boss your an Atheist because you will get fired, this happened to a friend of mine.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I knew this was coming! SMH!
Ó Dachartaigh,
No one is saying that blacks are the only people that have ever suffered from discrimination. I think abagond is well aware of other groups being discriminated against, however, that is not the particular topic of this post.
And LMAO at the atheist example. I can’t even believe you are comparing that to being black. Atheists are not facing discrimination in droves and never have; my SO is an atheist so if they were I would know about it. And no one will ever know if you are an atheist unless you tell them. Whereas one can never hide the color of one’s skin.
To Jade
Ok Jade please explain to me what this blog is all about, why you feel the way you do, and what the rest of the population is supposed to do about it. I actually am an understanding person, I’m trying to understand.
To Natasha W
Ok maybe I should have compared Atheism to Homosexuality and everybody knows gays are discriminated against, probably more then anybody else. Most people in American Black or White don’t like Gays.
Like I said, you can hide your sexual orientation, your beliefs, or what have you. But you can not hide the color of your skin.
Ok maybe I should have compared Atheism to Homosexuality and everybody knows gays are discriminated against, probably more then anybody else.
But the topic is not about homosexuality or atheism.
To Jade
Ok Jade please explain to me what this blog is all about, why you feel the way you do, and what the rest of the population is supposed to do about it. I actually am an understanding person, I’m trying to understand.
She doesn’t have to. Read the rest of the blog and draw your own conclusions. It is not Jade’s job to explain anything to you nor anyone else. If you are understanding, which I am sure you are, you will be able to comprehend this.
Well, from all I know about the US (correct me if I’m wrong), atheists and agnostics are indeed discriminated, at least in a way that their existence is not understood or encouraged, nor would an atheist have much chance to become a president (again, correct me if I’m wrong).
But to compare it with discrimination against blacks is… a bit tasteless. If nothing else, being an atheist isn’t physical. Being black is. It means that police, employers, random people on the street, etc. can’t know if you’re an atheist and use it against you. You can freely go shopping without being followed, if nothing else.
However, these sort of posts show one important thing about discrimination that we should all think about. People only care about their problems, or problems concerning their group. Not ALL people, of course, but most of them. If something doesn’t concern you or a group you belong to- you don’t care about it. You don’t see it. You see your own problems, and your group problems. Other things don’t exist.
I sometimes wonder what would happen if an ordinary white person could become black for, say, a few months. And an ordinary black person to become white. I wonder if they would understand each other better. I do wonder if white person would finally understand that some things he thought were normal and given (not being stopped by the police randomly, or not being followed in shops) were, in fact, a privilege. And would a black person realize there are still problems in his life, and discrimination, especially if he become a poor white person.
To Mira
“People only care about their problems, or problems concerning their group.”
I’m trying to understand, that’s why I’m here.
Mira,
Well, from all I know about the US (correct me if I’m wrong), atheists and agnostics are indeed discriminated, at least in a way that their existence is not understood or encouraged, nor would an atheist have much chance to become a president (again, correct me if I’m wrong).
It depends on where you are. In liberal areas, people wouldn’t bat an eyelash at someone saying they were agnostic or atheist. In fact, they would probably think twice about someone professing devout Catholic or Baptist beliefs. In more conservative areas, it is the reverse.
I don’t think people would have huge problems with an agnostic or atheist president, as long as s/he wasn’t pushing their views.
People only care about their problems, or problems concerning their group.
True. Very true. And it’s quite sad.
If something doesn’t concern you or a group you belong to- you don’t care about it. You don’t see it. You see your own problems, and your group problems. Other things don’t exist.
I’m always trying to see other perspectives, so I empathize with the issues of other groups and other people. When Ó Dachartaigh speaks of the Irish, I understand and I empathize. However, this is not the place for that. As it was presented it seemed like a way to excuse the injustices done against blacks. It’s like telling a person to stop crying about their mother dying, because your mother died too. It doesn’t make things better and it fails to see the big picture.
Also why aren’t the Blacks in Brazil as angry about there mistreatment, as Americans? I have talked to Brazilians and it doesn’t seem to be as big of an issue.
@Natasha W
I admit I was making a generalization, but I wrote what I think is true. I do know there are many people who do care about things that don’t directly affect them and their group. However, what you think, and what I think, and what anybody thinks isn’t really important- when viewed as groups, humans do tend to show the tendency I described above. Maybe I do take “a person is smart, people are stupid” way to literally, but I do believe it’s true.
So, in other words, I didn’t accuse anyone in particular here of not being interested in other people’s problems. It’s just the general trend I noticed.
Oh, and thanks for the info about atheism. I guess I was under the wrong impression. Many things I know about America, sadly, comes from media (news, movies), which obviously doesn’t equal the true picture. I did hear some stereotypes about atheists that I thought were ridiculous (I was raised in an atheist family and my husband is an agnostic) so I know those things make no sense, but I guess (I hope) it’s not the prevalent thinking about atheists in America.
“X people are discriminated against too!” is, 95 times out of 100, a derailment argument. It is called the Oppression Olympics.
Mira, I was agreeing with you (Hence, “True. Very true.”).
As far as religious belief goes, I think devout Christians are a dying breed in many parts of the US. Most people have Christian beliefs (76.5 percent of Americans identify as Christian), yet there aren’t many active and practicing Christians, just the type that attends at Christmas and Easter, and prays when they fall on hard times. In contrast to the number of agnostics and atheists, which has nearly doubled in the past two decades.
“X people are discriminated against too!” is, 95 times out of 100, a derailment argument. It is called the Oppression Olympics.
Except when someone’s trying to draw comparisons between, say, two different kinds of oppression. Then the “Oppression Olympics” is a derailment gambit itself.
To Mira
According to this poll Atheism is the second most negatively viewed belief in America. Natasha W says “It depends on where you are. In liberal areas, people wouldn’t bat an eyelash at someone saying they were agnostic or atheist.” Liberal areas are few and far between in America it is not the majority.
http://theframeproblem.wordpress.com/2008/04/16/atheism-no-longer-the-most-despised-group-in-america-thanks-scientology/
Ó Dochartaigh,
Are you really trying to derail this topic, as abagond stated? I was going to take your claims seriously, as it seemed you were genuine, but I see you’re just trying to divert our attention away from the topic at hand. Btw, there are more liberals and moderates in this country than there are conservatives. I could discuss with you for days. But that’s not the subject of this post, so I’ll stop right there.
I’m not trying to derail anything, regardless if there are more Liberals in this country, poll after poll shows Atheist are one of the least liked and understood groups in America. Liberals tend to stay in more metropolitan areas which is not the majority of this country.
The only reason I brought this up is because I’m trying to understand why some Black people feel this way about White people and others don’t. And when Black people disagree with Abagonds point of view they are called “House Negro”, that was your quote not mine.
I’m trying to understand the best I can that is why I brought up the slavery in my families past.
Ó Dochartaigh,
Maybe you didn’t see what I wrote the first time. Atheists are not walking around with “Atheist” on their forehead. So they don’t have to worry about being discriminated against unless they let their beliefs be known, and even then it is not a sure thing. You’re presenting the issue as if atheists are standing in the unemployment lines, lol. It’s really a non-issue in the grand scheme of things. Bringing them up is just so irrelevant and, really, a mockery of the topic at hand.
Most black people probably feel similarly to abagond, if not as extreme. But it’s fair to say they wouldn’t be jumping for joy at the proclamations of that house Negro. Btw, I called him that because he is trying to shame black people and patting white people on the back. He could’ve presented a more evenhanded argument.
Ó Dochartaigh said:
“And when Black people disagree with Abagonds point of view they are called “House Negro”, that was your quote not mine. “
Please do quote me: I do not remember saying that.
The term I mostly use is Rented Negro and that is mainly for conservative blacks who support white opinion and so get their books printed, their faces on cable news, etc. People like Clarence Thomas, Thomas Sowell, Amy Holmes and John McWhorter.
None of my commenters, so far as I know, are like that. The only one who has opinions anything like theirs is Tulio and I have never called him that – nor would I unless he sold out and got rich off of said opinions. And even in that case it is not the opinions that I object to so much as the selling out.
So far as I know I do not make it my business to police people’s opinions. I expect people to disagree with me, I expect them to think for themselves and come at things from their own experience of life.
abagond, s/he wa referring to my comment above about the preacher in that youtube video.
To Abagond
Sorry Abagond I was Quoting Natasha W.
@ Ó Dochartaigh:
Oh, I get it now: you were talking about Natasha W in regard to house Negroes.
To Natasha W
“So they don’t have to worry about being discriminated against unless they let their beliefs be known, and even then it is not a sure thing.”
I don’t think it is a for sure thing that Blacks will be discriminated against just because there black. Listen I’m trying to understand this the best way I can, that is why I am bringing up things that I have experienced. Most people don’t even try to understand what it would be like to be a different color, at least I’m trying, but everyone is bashing me for it.
You’re failing to see the bigger picture. Being black in this country is an issue all in itself. People will always question your credentials or stereotype you based on your color. The discrimination is nowhere close to the same:
Atheists have not faced hundreds of years of discrimination that still effect them today. Atheists did not have to get beaten down for the right to vote. Atheists do not have to deal with subpar housing. Atheists do not have others leave neighborhoods once they move in. Atheists do not have to wonder if they weren’t hired for a job, if it was due to their race. Atheists do not have to get shot, and have their killers go free. Atheists do not have to deal with negative stereotypes in the media. The list goes on. You’re being incredibly shortsighted with this comparison, and even my atheist SO agrees with me on that.
*due to their beliefs
To Natasha
The discrimination is nowhere close to the same:
“Atheists do not have others leave neighborhoods once they move in. Atheists do not have to wonder if they weren’t hired for a job.Atheists do not have to deal with negative stereotypes in the media.”
Media Glen Beck Blames murder because of Atheism:
Fox news Bigotry on Atheism:
Man Shot for being an Atheist:
http://www.parallelpac.org/murder.htm
This girl can’t play on the High School Basketball team because she is a Atheist:
Believe me I grew up in Appalachia, and being threatened with death for being an Atheist is not rare.
See what I mean: derailing.
I’m not derailing I’m trying to empathize, if you can’t guess I am an Atheist that has seen and felt discrimination for being a minority. Why can’t you understand that I’m not downplaying your situation.
Ó Dochartaigh,
How long does it take you to Google the links to back up your spurious claims? Isolated events do not prove anything. I could provide links of left-handed people facing discrimination and try to twist it into a major deal the way you are doing. Yet we all know it is nowhere near that level.
abagond,
Yes, I see. I don’t think I will be continuing this debate much longer.
Abagond you are a cold human being my friend, not every white person hates you. I’m trying to relate and your giving me the cold shoulder telling me I don’t understand, please enlighten me.
“Derailing” = “Someone brought up a point that I am not willing to look at.”
Most of the time, that’s what it is.
To Natasha W
Not long this kind of Discrimination is not that isolated especially were I’m from.
Ó Dochartaigh,
How are you trying to relate? If you were really trying to understand, you would ask more questions instead of providing “answers.”
To Thad
I guess when discrimination does not involve them personally then I’m am “Derailing.”
To Natasha W
I have given no answers, all the things I have posted are acts of Discrimination that I have experienced that relate to being a minority; therefore trying to relate.
No, you are derailing when you bring up a topic that has nothing to do with the subject at hand to try to divert attention away from said subject. Abagond already said he would write about the plight of the Irish next month. So you can discuss that and the woeful discrimation against atheists some other time.
To Natasha W
“woeful discrimation against atheists some other time.”
Your sympathetic tone makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside lol. I guess what Mira said earlier is right; if it doesn’t effect you personally you won’t care.
To Natasha W
Oh and the subject at hand was Slavery and Discrimination both of these things are what I have been talking about.
Ó Dochartaigh,
I care about your issues. I think all discrimination should be addressed, no matter how small. However, this is not the time or place to be addressing it. And since you keep doing so even after being told indirectly to stop, I can only believe you are purposely trying to minimize the issue at hand.
This post was about slavery, racism, and the denial of. Not the catch-all term, “discrimination.”
Ó Dochartaigh said:
“Abagond you are a cold human being my friend, not every white person hates you. I’m trying to relate and your giving me the cold shoulder telling me I don’t understand, please enlighten me.”
Perhaps I was quick to judge but it just seemed to me that the thread was being taken off into talk about discrimination against atheists – to what end?
Discrimination is a subject on this thread because people who say “My family never owned slaves” mostly think racism is dead and gone, that the slaves were freed and Jim Crow was overthrown and all is peaches and cream now – whatever troubles blacks still have is their own fault (bad fathers, etc).
So your argument, I take it, is that it is not peaches and cream for anyone – not for the Irish, especially in the old days (very true) or for atheists even now.
So fine, if you are not derailing, then what is your point?
I guess my point is your blog at times seems very angry; many of the Black folks who comment also seem very angry, and I feel this anger is misplaced. Many of your post say things like How White people Think, The Hearts Of White People, or White People Are Still Racist. But it is this generalization that keeps fueling the flames of Racism and separation. I am an Atheist and instead of blaming the Jews for inventing there religion or blaming the Catholics for spreading hate and separation; I blame the individual for there ignorance there lack of understanding, there hate and there willingness to discriminate. From what I have read on this blog your generalizations are screaming for separation. I love all people; I am white, and I wish we could move towards togetherness, not black race or white race but just the Human Race.
A bad analogy, anti-atheism equivalent to racism. is not off topic?
Slavery,laws prohibiting Blacks from getting loans, discrimination as well as the utter breakdown of the family is why Blacks are poor. If you look at Black Africans who did not endure slavery, the majority are married and when they come to the Uk and the Us, they consistently excel in education and generally open up businesses so they don’t have to rely on whites for jobs. A study was done in England. Resumes with an English, African and Indian name were sent out to various employers over a period of time. The qualifications were the same. The resume with the white name got more call backs for interviews,the Indians next, then Blacks last. They are now discussing putting a number rather than name on resumes.
Excellent post, Abagond. Really nothing of substance to add here.
Great post. And some of the most VICIOUS interactions post-bellum Blacks have had were with Irish and Italian American communities. The NY Times recently exposed 2 communities in the Bronx for their ongoing anti-Black housing policies: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/06/nyregion/06housing.html?ref=nyregion
Chicago suburbs (predominantly Italian) were fiercely anti-Dr. King. And we all know Boston’s reputation. What’s strange is, both of these groups were marginalized by mainstream whites.
To Tragimulattos – “What’s strange is, both of these groups were marginalized by mainstream whites.”
so true… There are probably a lot of reasons for this but I don’t feel educated enough on the topic to give it a good shot. (Keep in mind the Irish were slaves. When many came to the U.S, there was close proximity to a lot of the Black neighborhoods and more mixing between the communities than many are aware of. As I’ve stated previously, this is why many Black Americans today have Irish last names. (Not because Irish owned slaves, they were slaves!)
And some of the most VICIOUS interactions post-bellum Blacks have had were with Irish and Italian American communities.
Granted. And yet can you name one major city that was dominated by the Irish or the Italians that countenanced legal segregation?
BtW, regarding the Irish, it`s not a black thing. I think that any ethnic group can state the same. The only difference with regards to the blacks is that the Irish were actually a step or two farther up on the social ladder. Normally, it was they who were getting pissed on.
But remind me to write sometime about the big Irish/capoerista war in Rio de Janeiro in 1829…
@Ó Dochartaigh
“I guess my point is your blog at times seems very angry; many of the Black folks who comment also seem very angry, and I feel this anger is misplaced”
I can’t speak for all black people, but as a young black American woman “anger” is quite exhausting. If I speak up, no matter how calmly I’m speaking, I’m immediately labeled as the “angry black woman”
My parents both grew up during the civil rights movement and my dad was 10 when school integration happened and he told me that some white little boy spat at him and called him the “N” word–and back then my father had no idea what that word meant and asked my grandmother what it meant. My parents saw the ugliness at that time and they never told me or implied “I don’t want you playing with those people b/c they’re (fill in the blank)” They didn’t care if I brought home friends that were non-black.
I’m only twenty-eight and I’ve learned that you cannot change the minds of people that decide that they want to judge you because of your ethnicity. If they have a problem with me being black, it’s really not my problem but theirs. My frustration is mostly geared towards the way that the system is set up. I think this Equal Opportunity Employer stuff is a bunch of bull. I had a friend from the Phillipines tell me that she’s glad when she sees the EOE note at the end and I asked her what difference does it make? To me, you wouldn’t need to put that there if you’d just JUDGE the person on their qualifications and not their ethnicity! I also hate when jobs ask for my race, because in the back of my head, I feel like they’re doing a secret “diversity” survey like we have x amount of blacks, x amount of whites, asians, etc…so we need to hire more (fill in the blank with whatever race you feel like).
It seems that to some people it doesn’t matter that I have a Bachelor’s and a Master’s. They don’t care that I speak two other languages besides English. Or when they do learn this about me, I’m seen as “unique” black person. Sometimes I wonder if I were white, would I get this “unique” sentiment?
I have friends from Asian and European countries and I feel that I’m most able to comfortably discuss racism with them without being told “Maybe it’s something else” or “Stop playing the race card.” I’m in no way saying that discrimination doesn’t exist in Europe, because it does–I dated a French guy and he said that the French are quite racist towards N. Africans and another friend from Spain said that the Spanish pretend everything is all peaches. The only difference, I think is that we’re talking openly about it over here.
I think what riles me up the most is that when some white people–please note that I said some and not all–make it seem that the U.S. is/was only set up for them. My lineage is also made up of Cherokee Indian from my mother’s side, so I get annoyed when I’m repeatedly told to go back ‘home’. I feel that I’m repeatedly silenced when certain incidents do happen, I’m almost told that it’s in my head, etc.
Also, since I’ve moved to Los Angeles–a city that claims that it’s so diverse–I’ve been approached by several white men who feel the need to remind me of my skin color by saying “I dated black women, “etc–when I’m not even thinking that! It’s weird for me, because my ex-boyfriend was white with blonde hair and I tell them this and then ask them, why do they bring up my skin color? I’ve gotten it(still get it) so many times that I now respond by saying, “You mean I’m black? I thought I was just a dark skinned white person.”
BTW I also think that this “politically correct” attitude has done this country more harm than help. Sorry about the rant, but that’s my two cents.
To SickandTired,
You sound a lot like me and share some similar experiences, except I am a dark-skinned white person! (please don’t take that as condescending. It is not. I’m being serious.)
Actually, I am not ‘dark skinned’ per say, but am white and have passed for Black/”Mixed”.
Stick around for a “solutions to colourism” post that Abagond is working on!!!
Thad –
“But remind me to write sometime about the big Irish/capoerista war in Rio de Janeiro in 1829…”
I would love to hear about it. By the way, I should have been an anthropologist! I opted not because I was told they didn’t make any money. (Hey, I still don’t make any point so what was the point? LOL)
Thanks for your posts.
tragicmulatto said: Chicago suburbs (predominantly Italian) were fiercely anti-Dr. King. And we all know Boston’s reputation. What’s strange is, both of these groups were marginalized by mainstream whites.
Dr. King- Housing March in Gage Park Chicago, 1966
Great to hear your experiances and insights, Sickandtired…
Jade, absolutly riviting that youtube , I was 16 or so in Chicago at that time, I remember that interview and having to accept that white racism in the North was actualy more brutal and “hostile ” than even in the south.
I feel so blessed that my parents wanted me to be raised in an integrated envirnment, it profoundly influenced me and made me the person I am today. Im not saying everyone raised in an integrated envirnment would feel like I do, but, I could never imagine being raised in a white neighborhood that had that much hate for a great man like King and so threatened by black people….just riviting.
Does anyone care about modern slavery – i.e., human trafficking?
Or are we too busy fighting ancient battles?
Thad:
Please use only English.
Abagond, don’t you think it’s just a wee bit reactionary to censor a post for one phrase – not even a complete sentence – in Portuguese?
No. Read my comment policy.
Why should you take the blame for someone else’s wrong? I don’t take credit for anyone else’s good.
Maybe you should.
Thad,
The Italian American suburbs of Chicago were anti-integration. What else do you need to know about it.
Furthermore, the “Irish” thing was anti-black. Part of it stemmed from economic competition. The other part was that although they were maligned by mainstream whites, they still felt racial entitlement. PERIOD. Especially the 20th century immigrants.
My family was a part of the American Revolution – I can trace it back that far and earlier to Ireland, Scotland, France and Germany.
My Irish/Scottish/French side did own slaves – they also were negotiators in the treaties with the Native American Indians in Virginia.
I grew up *not knowing* that they did indeed own slaves until February of this year – my great grandparents didn’t live in Virginia so discussing the family history of slavery wasn’t brought up since they raised my grandparents a good distance from Virginia.
Slavery is part of my family history though, a fact.
Owning another person is inhumane and disdainful, and I don’t know how many white people share in knowing their family owned slaves, but I do.
For what it’s worth – I would offer a sincere apology to the people on this blog today for my ancestors role in subjugation and the dehumanizing ordeal of slavery. It may be lame to apologize on a blog – I don’t know for sure, but I am sure I will find out – but I just want to say I’m sorry for the past, my families past and the dehumanizing affects my family’s role has played in the history of Africans and Americans.
tuesday said:
“My family was a part of the American Revolution – I can trace it back that far and earlier to Ireland, Scotland, France and Germany.
My Irish/Scottish/French side did own slaves – they also were negotiators in the treaties with the Native American Indians in Virginia.
I grew up *not knowing* that they did indeed own slaves until February of this year – my great grandparents didn’t live in Virginia so discussing the family history of slavery wasn’t brought up since they raised my grandparents a good distance from Virginia.
Slavery is part of my family history though, a fact.
Owning another person is inhumane and disdainful, and I don’t know how many white people share in knowing their family owned slaves, but I do.
For what it’s worth – I would offer a sincere apology to the people on this blog today for my ancestors role in subjugation and the dehumanizing ordeal of slavery. It may be lame to apologize on a blog – I don’t know for sure, but I am sure I will find out – but I just want to say I’m sorry for the past, my families past and the dehumanizing affects my family’s role has played in the history of Africans and Americans.”
You have nothing to apologise for! You yourself had nothing to do with american slavery!
I don’t and neither should anybody blame you for something that you had no control over!
Sins of the father should never be upon the son, or something like that!
Vindicator – I disagree with your opinion. Apologies are never too late and since I seem to be one of the few who come here whose family owned slaves, I am making an apology. Now, back off.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/23/opinion/23gates.html?hp
For what its worth, here is an article in todays New York Times about slavery and the blame game that is relavant to these discusions.
Im the first to tell you no white American should hide behind the Arab slave trade and Africans selling Africans into slavery to diminish the affect slavery has on America in the past and into todays society.
However, I do feel the whole truth about African slave trade is valuable
vindicator- its actually the sins of the father will be put onto the children for multiple generations… which does bring up karma, but karma could be applied to all who have suffered. Are they suffering for past sins and when does the suffering stop? I havent suffered in my life much at all, and I don’t experience racism daily. I have benefitted greatly from being white despite my efforts to self induce struggles. White people should own up to our privilege and apologise for our role in the past and make the efforts required to affect change in the present.
Oh…*shudder*….if I hear this excuse one more time….
*cue fountain of vomit*
what excuse?
I would never say that we should forget History, and yeah some white people “cop out” like that, but the truth is, that the U.S. prides itself on individuality. I don’t want my children to pay for my mistakes, so I seriously don’t want them to pay for what a far-off distant relative MIGHT have done. Not to mention the fact that not all “white” people in the U.S even have family lines that far back in American history. They could’ve come from some random country in Europe that didn’t participate in slavery. And even so, the reason I even found this site is because I am doing a report on black/Native American slave owners and there were A LOT of them, especially in Latin America. Slavery was an economic system. And we shouldn’t forget it, because as the old parable goes “those who forget history are doomed to repeat it” …nonetheless, just because someone’s skin is white does not mean that they should have to live their lives feeling guilty or pay anybody anything just because their skin is black. As far as blood lines go, the white person could have had slave ancestors too, should they get reparations? Not all blacks had ancestors here during slavery either. And most importantly, I wish people would stop acting like the U.S. invented slavery or something. It has been around forever. Sure, the south got out of hand, and it was almost a blessing in disguise, if not, who knows how long it would have been before it was abolished.
And hello! Did you ever take a History class in your life? Do you know what happened to the very small minority of whites who still owned slaves during the Civil War? During Reconstruction they lost everything. White and Black Union soldiers raped the wives and daughters of slave owners, burned down everything they owned, killed their livestock, killed them if they were not off fighting in the war. The slave owners had to start from scratch. Now, this is nothing in comparison to what the poor, newly “freed—if ya wanna call it that” blacks had to endure. But nobody was “profiting” after that I can promise you.
And don’t even get me started on Africa. Do you think scared little white prissy boys were going deep in those hot African Jungles to search for slaves…heck no…African men met them at the dock with them.
And if you do your homework, it is reported that black slave-owners were the cruelest masters of all.
All those wanting an apology for something I DID NOT DO, and sure the heck am not BENIFITING from, well, I am a Christian so I won’t even tell you what I think about that. But get off your lazy behind and do something with your life like the rest of us. I am “white” whatever the heck that means, and I grew up in a small town where whites and blacks didn’t hate each other because they are equal NOW, and nobody was pointing fingers about what strangers did. WE all work side by side to better our community.
There will always be racism—ON EVERY SIDE—just like there will always be discrimination between sexes, against homosexuals, old people, kids, you name it. Sure, people were idiots, some still are, but don’t make those of us who just want to live peaceful lives suffer for it. All the programs offered out there, mostly the ones started by the Carter administration, make complaining about it being unfair a bunch of bull-honkey.
It is people like you that keep the hate percolating. For once, just trying treating people like you want to be treated, instead of how you think they should be treated because someone who Looked like them hurt someone who looked like you 200 years ago. I’ll pray for you…
I know you won’t post my comment because it proves that your arguement is phony; however, I do hope you read it. You really need to do some research and let go of all the hate and anger you hold in your heart. I don’t know you but I love you, because that’s how I am. Nonetheless, i do not like your attitude, and I will continue to pray for you daily. In fact, I have already added you to my daily prayer list so that I cannot forget. God Bless you
sounds like another self righteous fake christian…yet another example of why many are turning atheist.
I am so tired of racists using God like that. People like that are better off worshiping Satan. Their perfect for each other.
Nonetheless, i do not like your attitude, and I will continue to pray for you daily.
Pray that I win the lottery on Friday night! Perhaps then, we will all let go of the hate and anger in our hearts, as we will be too busy shopping! God Bless you dear!
^^ Your comments always crack me up
Can’t help it when people make absurd remarks!
“‘My family never owned slaves’ becomes an excuse not to do anything more.”
What do you want done?
im curious…what does anyone expect white people to say about it? im white…but i didnt have anything to do with slavery, even if my family did own slaves. which they didnt. but even if they had…do i owe an apology? im sorry for the injustice that comes towards people. i dont understand why people are racist…doesnt make sence to me, but all i can do is be myself and be fair to people, no matter who they are and what they look like.
i believe you’ll tell me i’m derailing again, but, the CIVIL WAR had nothing to do with slavery. i’m sorry but, if you think that, you’re sadly mistaken. good ol’ abraham lincoln said himself that he didn’t care about the slaves, and the south could keep them. the civil war was about much more than that.
other than that, like the person above me posted, what ARE we supposed to say about slavery? really? i don’t agree with it, but i didn’t have anything to do with it. neither did my irish and indian ancestors. and i may be stupid here, but how on earth does slavery from hundreds of years ago, affect the life span of a black american today?
The Civil War was really about socialized health care.
“other than that, like the person above me posted, what ARE we supposed to say about slavery? really? i don’t agree with it, but i didn’t have anything to do with it. neither did my irish and indian ancestors. and i may be stupid here, but how on earth does slavery from hundreds of years ago, affect the life span of a black american today?”
Good point. It’s often the case that those who harp on ancient grievances that nobody currently living was responsible for are those who are unwilling to take charge of their own lives and work for their own betterment.
the civil war, was about the south succeeding from the union. the south wanted out, and abe liked the tax money he was getting from the south.
that’s the truth no one wants you to know about.
I asked this question back in May and have not received a response. What do you want done?
the civil war, was about the south succeeding from the union. the south wanted out, and abe liked the tax money he was getting from the south.
that’s the truth no one wants you to know about.
And the south wanted out WHY, exactly? They just woke up one morning and say “Hey, let’s secede?”
What was the PROXIMATE reason for succession, according to practically every major southern politician of the time? (Hint: it wasn’t taxes.)
^secession
read, and be enlightened:
the slavery issue was not a factor in the civil war until the emancipation proclamation. the confederate states seceded from the union over the issue of states rights and the power of state governments to totally rule over its land and decide its own issues.
the south broke away for a number of reasons, one of them was not slavery. this is fact because of the use of common sense. Tell me how the north can fight for the emancipation of slaves in the south when this peculiar institution still existed in the north. slavery wasn’t abolished until 1868, 3 years after the war. thus kentucky, missouri, maryland, and delaware still had slaves. (Union States)
this struggle was over the power in government. the south was rich in the agriculture industry and traded with europe, the north was industry and had no trading partner whatsoever. so when Lincoln was elected president, he taxed all southern goods and bankrupted many. thus the south broke away because of balance of power. hmmmm this sounds like the original 13 colonies ehh? well they wont ever teach you that in our kids history books. slavery was not an issue, lincoln even asked president davis that slavery would be intact if they came back into the union. davis’ response was no because slavery is not the struggle we fight in this war.
and just to make you happy:
the primary cause for secession was states’ rights. therefore, slavery played a role here since the union was trying to strip Southern states of their “right” to own slaves, but slavery wasn’t the full cause.
slavery was not what the south wanted, RIGHTS was what we wanted. think about the revolution. this country was trying to turn into the SAME THING all over again. and the south DID NOT want to be a part of it.
slavery was not what the south wanted, RIGHTS was what we wanted. think about the revolution. this country was trying to turn into the SAME THING all over again. and the south DID NOT want to be a part of it.
Are you from Texas?
Ooh! Enlightenment! Such a deal!
the south broke away for a number of reasons, one of them was not slavery.
O rly? Y’know, that’s extremely odd, because when I read the quotes from the great southern politicians regarding why the south needed to secede, I find stuff like this…
Jeff Davis, in 1861:
[For the development of our economy] the labour of African slaves was and is indispensable… with interests of such overwhelming magnitude imperilled, the people of the Southern states were driven by the conduct of the North to the adoption of some course of action to avert the danger with which they were openly menaced.
Or how about South Carolina’s declararion of independence in 1860, which listed in its “Declaration of Causes” the following: “Fourteen of the States [free states] have deliberately refused for years to fulfill their constituional obligations.” And what were those obligations, according to the South Carolina Congress? they had “ssumed the right of deciding upon the rights of property established in fifteen of the states [the slaveholding states] and recognized by the Constitution;…”
So the North was saying let’s confiscate the South’s property? But they must have meant ships and cotton and other things, right? No. South Carolina goes on and is quite specific in its complaint:
“…they have denounced as sinful the instittuion of slavery; they have permitted the open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the the peace and carry off the property of the citzens of other States [that's the abolitionists they're talking about there, Heather]. they have encouraged and assisterd thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection”.
And what about this missive of March 1861, written by Confederate Vice President Alexander Stevens?
The foundations of our new government are laid, their cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man, that slavery – subordination to the superior race – is his natural and normal condition. Thus our new government is the first in the history of the world based upon this great physcial, philosophical and moral truth.
Heather, dearie… The idea that the seccesion had nothing to do with slavery was invented AFTER the south had its ass well and roundly kicked by the north. After the confederacy had lost the war. This is just like what happened with all those ex-Nazis who all of a sudden roundly hated Hitler when they were creamed by the Allies.
If you go to the hundreds – no thousands – of declarations made by southern leaders in 1860 and 1861, you’ll clearly see that while there were indeed many issues dividing the two sections, the southern people themselves found the spectre of the abolition of slavery to be the last straw. This is a very well supported fact, in spite of what southern revisionists would love you to believe.
Read the original documents and be enlightened.
Tell me how the north can fight for the emancipation of slaves in the south when this peculiar institution still existed in the north. slavery wasn’t abolished until 1868, 3 years after the war.
Any freshman American history text will give you the answer, Heather. Lincoln did not intend to abolish slavery: he intended to keep the republic whole. It’s well documented that he never intended an abolitionist crusade. The leaders of the south didn’t see things that way, however. Lincoln’s position was that slavery would no longer EXPAND. The south would not be allowed to export it into the west. The South saw this as an ipso facto declaration of abolitionist intent and revolted.
Lincoln was real clear on why he eventually made the Emancipation Proclamation: not because he was a die-hard abolitionist, but because it was a great weapon to be used against the south at that injuncture of the war – principally because with one stroke of the pen, Lincoln thus blocked any chance of British intervention in the war. He didn’t do it until September 1862 (note: 18 months after the war began and not three years as you claim) because the Union had been getting its ass kicked by the CSA up until then and a declaration of emancipation, in those circumstances, would have been seen as a desperate attempt to win political points. For that reason, the Declaration only occured after the Union’s first major victory at Antietam.
But you’re right: Lincoln WOULDN’T have abolished slavery if the south had stayed in. The south didn’t see things that way, however, and thus they left. This interpretation is backed up by pretty much everything their leaders said upon secession.
The South thus began the war out of PARANOIA: paranoia that a Lincoln presidency meant the end of their way of life. It didn’t necessarily mean that, but southern reactionism ensured that it eventually would. I leave it to the readers to draw parallels between that situation and today’s white southern insanity over Obama. (But I myself think it means that when it comes to matters racial, you folks are not now and never have been wrapped very tight).
the north was industry and had no trading partner whatsoever.
?
Sorry, honey chile, that’s just not true. The North was trading a plenty in the Americas already. Yes, tariffs were a big gripe between the two regions: the North liked them to protect its industry and the South hated them because they wanted to sell cotton to Britain. But the North was fighting to EXTEND its trade – not eliminate it. And with the northern victory, the American empire took off precisely because American manufactured good COULD compete with Britain’s all across the Americas.
So the fact that you’re here chatting with us now via computer instead of hoeing cotton out back for some British (or, more likely, American) company is due to the northern victory, sweetie. Brazil, the country I live in, followed your dear South’s route and was progressively underdeveloped as a result. We are only now beginning to climb out of that hole. There’s a reason not a single agricultural export economy of the 19th century generated a world power in the 20th.
Not a one, Heather. Exporting farm goods to Britain was not the path to a solid economy.
For what it’s worth I wish the north HAD let you secede in 1861. The blacks would have still flooded north and you southerners would be living in the third world right now, instead of sucking down our taxes and filling up the American congress with lunatic Christian extremists. Yankees would own anything of substance in your country through their control of your tiny elite and people like you would be good rickets-wracked, toothless southern patriots literally whistling Dixie.
Humanity definitely lost an opportunity to isolate the most reactionary, uneducated and lunatic fringe of white America when the North decided to fight for Union. If I could go back in time, I would let you folks be on your merry and don’t let the screen door hit you on the ass on the way out.
“For what it’s worth I wish the north HAD let you secede in 1861. The blacks would have still flooded north and you southerners would be living in the third world right now, instead of sucking down our taxes and filling up the American congress with lunatic Christian extremists. Yankees would own anything of substance in your country through their control of your tiny elite and people like you would be good rickets-wracked, toothless southern patriots literally whistling Dixie.
Humanity definitely lost an opportunity to isolate the most reactionary, uneducated and lunatic fringe of white America when the North decided to fight for Union. If I could go back in time, I would let you folks be on your merry and don’t let the screen door hit you on the ass on the way out.”
really? honestly, what does it matter to you, being that you’re in brazil? and the whole south doesn’t agree with the “lunatic christian extremists”.
and it seems to me you missed the whole “it wasn’t slavery we didn’t want taken away, but the RIGHT to have slaves.” it was about RIGHTS – states’ rights, to be exact.
like i said here:
“slavery was not an issue, lincoln even asked president davis that slavery would be intact if they came back into the union. davis’ response was no because slavery is not the struggle we fight in this war.”
you also left out an explanation for this part:
“Tell me how the north can fight for the emancipation of slaves in the south when this peculiar institution still existed in the north.”
how WAS the north fighting for emancipation of the precious slaves when the north STILL HAD THEM, themselves?
do you even realize the importance of STATES’ RIGHTS that the south fought and died for? it was the right to make your own laws, for each state, so the country would be a REPUBLIC [A republic is a form of government in which at least a part of its people have some element of formal control over its government, and in which the head of state is not a monarch. The word "republic" is derived from the Latin phrase res publica, which can be translated as "a public affair".]
but, i guess i digress. because as you did in your last comment, you pick PARTS of what i say to argue with, ignore what you CAN’T argue down, and pretend to be superior.
by the way, i may be a WHITE SOUTHERN young woman, but that isn’t why i disagree with this blog, or [i'll be flayed alive for this one] why i don’t like president obama. if you wanna know why i don’t like him, it’s his political platform. ask any obama supporter,
“why did you vote for him?”
“because he wants ‘change’.”
“what kind of change?”
“i don’t know…..just change”
i got that from MANY obama supporters, and from my black friends who didn’t agree with his platform, i got this:
“i feel like it’s my duty as a black person”
really now? because i thought it was your duty as an american to vote with your conscious. not with your race.
if you wanna know WHY i don’t agree with his platform, have you heard of ron paul?
maybe, maybe not….i voted for HIM. check him out….or don’t. and just babble some more about the south and how dumb we are. it amuses me….really.
really? honestly, what does it matter to you, being that you’re in brazil?
Because I am still an American citizen, Heather, and I vote.
and the whole south doesn’t agree with the “lunatic christian extremists”.
Indeed. But that is by and large how the south VOTES, isn’t it?
and it seems to me you missed the whole “it wasn’t slavery we didn’t want taken away, but the RIGHT to have slaves.” it was about RIGHTS – states’ rights, to be exact.
There was only one right that was threatened: the right to human property. And that right was not even REALLY threatened, according to the majority of serious historians that have looked into the issue.
Can you cite us any other “right” in property that was threatened by the North, other than the right to own slaves? Hell, can you show us any proof that the leaders of the North even intended to do aay with slavery?
No, you can’t.
Face it, Heather: you southerners let your mouths run away and sign a check you couldn’t cash. If you’d have kept quiet, slavery would have gone along probably until close to the 20th century, just like it did in Brazil.
Oh, and by the way, your English trade partners? They would have eventually pushed you into abolition, just like they did Brazil. So all your southern piss-and-vinnegar bought you was devastation and a position as the U.S.’ poorest region for the better part of a century and a half.
Well done, guys!
how WAS the north fighting for emancipation of the precious slaves when the north STILL HAD THEM, themselves?
I answered that. apparently, southern schools are still churning out sub-standard readers.
The north wasn’t fighting for the slaves: it fought to maintain the Union. Slavery, as an issue, had nothing to do with the north’s goals and everything to do with the south’s FEARS. You people FEARED that a Lincoln presidency meant the end of slavery. This is a fact supported by every utterance made by southern politicans in 1860-61 and YOU YOURSELF, above. Said fear pushed the south to revolt and the North acted to preserve the union.
So you’re right in saying abolition wasn’t a northern war goal until late 1862. Where you’re wrong is in saying the war wasn’t about slavery: you southerners obviously thought it was. The supposed “threat” to your “rights” in human property posed by a Lincon presidency pushed you to revolt. The war was most DEFINITELY about slavery then, according to the Southern leaders themselves.
In the grand southern romantic tradition, your foolish ancestors went and shot themselves in the foot, then whined that it was all due to an evil Yankee conspiracy.
do you even realize the importance of STATES’ RIGHTS that the south fought and died for?
Nope, I don’t. My great-great was a German-American republican abolitionist who fought at Vicksburg in a Wisconsin regiment. Piss on those rebel terrorist traitors and their so-called “states’ rights”.
A republic is a form of government in which at least a part of its people have some element of formal control over its government, and in which the head of state is not a monarch. The word “republic” is derived from the Latin phrase res publica, which can be translated as “a public affair”.
Nice to know that Southern schools at least teach their students how to use Wikipedia, even if they don’t teach them reading comprehension.
Heather, the U.S. government is and always has been at least partially formally controlled by at least a part of its people. The head of the U.s. state has never been a monarch. So what do your so-called “states’ rights” have to do with this issue again?
but, i guess i digress. because as you did in your last comment, you pick PARTS of what i say to argue with, ignore what you CAN’T argue down, and pretend to be superior.
Why do you looney southern so-called patriots always claim no one can argue you down when that’s precisely what happens all the time? You folks are the flat earth society of American history: the last blind adherents of the great lost cause. No one can “argue you down” because you have faith in your ignorance and will hold to it no matter what facts are presented.
I presented three 1860-61 quotes from key southern leaders clearly claiming that they revolted to protect slavery. I could present another hundred or even a thousand. The documents and newspapers of the time are full of such claims. None of that is going to make a whit of difference to you, Heather, because history is not based on facts for you: it’s based on faith and emotional, unreasoning loyalties to a cause which died a century and a half ago and which was dedicated, body and soul, to the proposition that some human beings should naturally be the property of others.
A thinking, rational southerner would be ashamed of your igniorance and the bigotry which it is based upon. I know the south, however, and am well aware that the whites there have little to be proud of other than their mythical lost cause, which is why i understand where you’re coming from.
It’s also why, however, I think it’s a pity that you yahoos didn’t get what you wanted and so richly deserve: your own country, followed by political and economic colonization and abject poverty.
by the way, i may be a WHITE SOUTHERN young woman, but that isn’t why i disagree with this blog, or [i'll be flayed alive for this one] why i don’t like president obama
Oh, perish the thought. Why would a Confederate appologist dislike Obama because of his race? What a completely unusual thought!
really now? because i thought it was your duty as an american to vote with your conscious. not with your race.
By your own admission, you’d rather be living in an independent CSA, so what the hell would you know about responsabilities to the USA and – moreover – why would you care?
maybe, maybe not….i voted for HIM. check him out….or don’t. and just babble some more about the south and how dumb we are. it amuses me….really.
People in general don’t ‘babble’ on about why they voted for a particular politician? Anyhow, what does voting for Obama, or any other politician have to do with the topic at hand? The discussion isn’t about present day politics. How is it you managed to interject Obama into the conversation?
i’m not letting anyone here pull me into anymore arguments. i’m done. i’m over this. i don’t even know why i got involved with this hugely racist blog anyway.
i don’t even know why i got involved with this hugely racist blog anyway.
Because you’re a poor lil’ southern belle who’s been hugely done for by that big, bad, mean ol’ Unka Sugah?
Hey, Heather, you go ahead and vote Republican and watch them cut corporate taxes and rape the south even more than the Democrats. People like you have been cutting your own throats at the polls for 150 years, so I doubt that you’ll stop now.
The Demos are jerks, I agree. But only a fool – or a white southerner – would believe that that somehow makes the Republicans white knights.
one more point i wanted to make, since this wasn’t a push into an argument…
anyone with a brain knows your typical “john mccain” republican, or “george w. bush” if you will, are exactly the same as the democrats, behind closed doors. they say what you want to hear, then when you AREN’T listening/watching them, they do the same things.
i don’t vote specifically for republicans. i voted for ron paul, in 2008. when he didn’t win in the primary, i wrote him in anyway. not because he’s republican, but because i agreed with his platform. i will vote for a libertarian in the ga. governor’s race. i vote with my conscious, not with a party. and when i DON’T agree with ANYONE’S platform, i don’t vote, out of protest. [i know someone will tell me, i don't have a right to say ANYTHING if i don't vote, and i have my own views on that, ask me if you wanna know.]
I am Irish in Boston. My great grandparents came here in the early 1910′s. While trying to understand my own heritage, I know full well that my family may have been racist, but also that they were very poor living in the projects in Boston, working as servants in rich people’s homes and although things may have been ‘easier’ for them than for blacks, it still wasn’t easy and it wasn’t a life of privilege. There was racism against the Irish, and the English made indentured servants out of the Irish too. My parents moved out of the projects as a young adults and now our family is doing alright. But, sometimes I feel an accusatory stance from black people who assume that we’ve had it easy because we’re white and that we’re all responsible for what happened 200 years ago. I’ve never used “my family never owned slaves” statement in a conversation or argument with any black person ever in my life, but I can understand where it comes from. I disagree with the analogy of the mafia daughter with the pearls. Not all white people in this country have benefited from slavery. And I think it is legitimate for many of us who are white and who are trying to get a true sense of our own family history to know outright that the ugliness of slavery does not have to be incorporated into our personal sense of identity.
I asked this question back in May and earlier in August and have not received a response. What do you want done? What I see is a great amount of discussion about slaves, whether one’s ancestors “owned” slaves or not. I merely want to know what action is wanted, what should be done now? Bottom line.
@ Integrity
You should check out Abagond’s posts on Irish Americans and Ireland. I enjoyed the posts and there are a lot of interesting comments there too.
(caps mine for emphasis)
abagond says,
America grew rich on the red man’s land worked by black slaves. For a long time cotton was the main thing America sold to other countries. Profits from cotton (made mainly in the North and in Britain, not in the South) in turn helped to underwrite the growth of the country’s industry.
The RACISM that grew out of slavery kept MOST blacks AT THE BOTTOM AS A SUPPLY OF CHEAP LABOUR.
That BENEFITTED ALL WHITES THROUGH LOWER PRICES.
Even TODAY WHITES CONTINUE TO BENEFIT FROM RACISM IN THE FORM of BETTER EDUCATION, HIGHER INCOMES, LONGER LIVES, and ALL the other UNEARNED BENEFITS of WHITE PRIVILEGE that have GROWN OUT of SLAVE DAYS.
laromana says,
The essence of White privilege are the UNEARNED benefits it gives ALL Whites SOLELY because they’re White and the UNEARNED disadvantages it creates for ALL Blacks SOLELY because they’re Black.
If ALL Whites/Other Non-Blacks (who BENEFIT from White privilege) gained a clear awareness of why/how White privilege harms/has harmed ALL Blacks and were WILLING to ACTIVELY work to DESTROY it, we would be on our way to ending the negative effects of slavery/racism on American culture.
I think we shouldn’t forget about the Africans that sold their own people into slavery. We should trace their bloodlines to see who of the African decent is guilty for slavery as well. Selling your own people into slavery is just as bad(or worse) as owning a slave of another ethnicity.
@ Abe
How are you going to do that?
My family DID own slaves. My great grandfather owned slaves until the Yankees illegally “liberated” them without just compensation in 1865. I AM racist. And NONE of my best friends are black. And I think the election of a black man as president signals the irrevocable demise of America into a second-rate nation — as happens wherever Africans dominate and whites are in powerless minority. So what? Living Whites don’t owe blacks anything for the deeds of Dead Whites. And I don’t owe Blacks anything because I am racist — any more than a homosexual owes heterosexuals anything because he prefers his own sex. Yet Blacks STILL demand the “right” to associate with me!
The problem with blacks is that they have a lower average group IQ than other races. This low IQ prevents Africans from creating a civilization on par with Whites or Asians. That’s why Whites, as a group, will ALWAYS have more than Africans — because Africans are too stupid to invent an alphabet or a mathematical system that is the necessary foundation of an advanced civilization. White oppression or racism had NOTHING to do with Black stupidity. Blame God for that. In fact, the more white blood Africans have, the smarter they become. It’s called genetic up-breeding.
Yes, Africans did labor that helped build America — just as horses and mules did, but the brains behind it all were White. There was no way Blacks could ever have crossed the ocean to get to America without Whites. Yes, Whites, led by Jewish slave traders, foolishly imported
Africans into the bosom of their White civilization. By doing so they imported the Black Plague into their heartland and cursed their descendants with Black Death.
As Blacks flourish, White civilization withers. When the White Host dies, Africans will inevitably resume a place befitting their native IQ and temperment in the natural order of human species. There won’t be a White Supreme Court to stop Whites from prefering their own kind. There won’t be a White Congress to redistribute the wealth of White taxpayers. There won’t be any more White taxpayers. The non-white races will continue to shun the African, just as the White man did, because self-improvement and self-preservation dictate the shunning of the inferior — and virtually all races instinctively regard the African as inferior.
That’s what Racism, aka ethno-centricism, is all about, and it’s inevitable. Racism is why Africans are incapable of seeing themselves from the perspective of non-Africans. It’s impossible for Blacks to comprehend or reconcile the massive disconnect between their own self-affirming, positive self image and how free, uncensored non-Africans instinctively see them: as giant, walking, talking cockroaches. It is likewise impossible for Whites to affirm the unflattering view that Blacks have of them. What is unforgiveable or detestable to one race is perfectly acceptable and understandable to the other. That’s why segregation is essential for ethnic self-determination and preservation — and why I make no apology to Blacks for preferring my own kind over theirs. The only thing I’m willing to give to Blacks (as a matter of national policy), is a one-way ticket back to Africa. Any takers?
What are we as whites supposed to be sorry for slavery? I am not sorry but I don’t feel accountable….Asking any white person to say sorry is just stupidity. People around the world and Black American’s think that our president was voted in by blacks only what B.S. Blaming all white people whose family may or may not have even lived here in the days of Slavery is just stupidity again.It would be the same if white people asked for an apology from black people over any crime they commit towards white people. Which black people have and still do target white people for their non-sense hatred towards everyone who is white (And I am not talking about every black person). I have known for years that only the rich white people owned slaves it wasn’t only in the south either it was all over the country. It is a known fact that Gen. Sherman didn’t like black people and thought black people was beneath white people he thought the only reason we were at war with each other is the south broke the law. But most of you hold him in high regards.I don’t hate black people,I don’t hate anyone. But I am not going to be ashamed because I am white or say sorry for anything. I am pretty proud to be white just as Blacks and Hispanics are allowed to be. If you still feel like white people are holding you down it’s your own fault.
“Pollynkorect”: Writes lengthy, hate-filled missives to “cockroaches”. Probably makes late-night crank calls to ‘ants’. Not to be taken seriously.
Pollynkorect bears a stunning resemblance to the astounding She- Monster:
http://www.superstrangevideo.com/prodImages/Astounding%20She-MonsterFront.jpg
Sh is probably a minion of Cthulu!
Some people really do need to get a life.
@Herneith:
Witty and humorous as usual.
i am shocked the chick had the nerve to have her picture up here. But then again, true racists have lots of nerve!
You mean this one?:
http://www.superstrangevideo.com/prodImages/Astounding%20She-MonsterFront.jpg
Just looked up family tree to 1400′s on three lines..original settlers of Va., Mass., N.C., Texas..found many old wills…most were planters, not farmers…several were high peers of the crown, original settlers of Virginia….and they owned slaves…dozens and dozens of them…..
The black tribes in Africa enslaved other tribes and sold them…or else it would not have ever happened…
Chaka Zulu killed a million black people to satisfy his blood lust and ego…there has never been a “civilization” in Africa…and now as per Yahoo news 47 rapes an hour in the Congo…every hour on the hour…..the blacks brought over here were better off than the ones in Africa in that era or any other era…
Not an ounce of racism here…isn’t racist if it is true…
And the blacks here now are reaping the benifits of any infrastucture…economic or otherwise the slaves may have bought with their labor….
If you want to experience racism in America today, try being white, a college graduate, well mannered, and you stop at stop signs…the most racist here are the Mexicans….
In short, who cares? Is slavery in the past causing black women to have five bastard children by the time they are 21? With birth control free at Planned Parenthood..With at least four fathers?….seriously…..and sell poisonous crack , heroin, and meth. to black children in the Hood? The only racism I have seen with my eyes was from blacks and hispanics towards whites…for real…..and to pretend somehow that any white person that ever lived is in any way to blame for their life somehow not being fair….? Get real…wake up…..finish high school at least…stop having bastards…..get a job and don’t just loaf when you get there and call it racism when you get fired…oh, don’t worry they are afraid to fire you…unless you just don’t show up for a month….
^THIS^
White dude above me is the EXACT reason why I am saying addressing racism to whitefolks is useless. Too many are just too damn delusional to get through to. How many blog post does Abagond have dismantling every damn argument this dude just made? This is why we need to worry about taking care of ourselves and not clueless white people. Your average black person doesn’t need you to tell them why all of those arguments are dumb. This man does and we waste time explaining to him(as if he will understand once we are done).
Black people, stop wasting time and start being proactive.
Actually reading Polynkorect found the average IQ of South African blacks is 65…other areas range from a low of that to a high of 72….
^ The internet is full of half baked fools. We both know this isn’t representative of anything but his own ignorance.
@ TW
Click on the “see also” links at the end of the article.
Delusional…..?…Did Martin Luther King die so clueless black kids in the hood could walk around with their pants sagging? Is that the best response they can muster to their environment….
I am not even angry..give every person respect if I interact with them…but it is getting old…
@TW
I didn’t even read past the first sentence. Find somebody else to give a damn about your opinions
Delusional because I won’t indulge and enable your dysfunctional concepts that blacks are owed a living here? Or that someone else is the cause for their unhappiness?
It is the complete lack of a family structure…or a positive family structure…in the black community….no role models except pimps, drug dealers, con artists…
And the latest scammers are the three hundred pound ministers…opps they all call themselves Bishop….
Bishop Willie Green…pimpin’ Jesus….and all for the sex they can get, food, money….gluttony…and control
What about the Rwandan genocide…are white people responsible for that….
I am saying get honest…get the chip off your shoulder and go on with your business…are are you just going to keep the old tired train rollinig? For other young blacks growing up to pimp….that is all it is….
Is anyone even taking TW’s obvious lack of education seriously?
Did he actually say that there was no civilization in Africa, and that white people had nothing to do with Rwanda? His talking points are the ones of old, that current White Supremacists don’t even use anymore. All because they’ve been quashed that hard.
He’s obviously a troll…
And before he predictably responds with this, I don’t call him a troll because “He sees the truth, and I don’t like it!” or whatever “stupidity protecting slogan” he wants to use, but because he’s actually quite unintelligent.
Wrather than keep beating this old dead horse on your blogs, why not something productive like a blog to keep black youth in high school at least. Or a link to Planned Parenthood in every community..
Or is it that you made it past community college and you are doing these blogs so the crack heads back in the hood don’t accuse you of acting white….just because you use proper English.
And the blog about white women not so attractive….black women are not in the least attractive to me because beauty is not just skin deep…Because the family stuctures they are raised in influence them to basically be on the ball to play men for a sucker before they get played…
Did white people have anything to do with Rwanda? Once it became open season on bloodlust..it just went wild…are the ones there not responsible for what they did? Or is it like the murder lust now along the border with Mexico with the drug trolls…oh, I forgot, it is the demand for drugs here in the US that turns them into blank minded brain eating zombies….they couldn’t have been mindless brain eating zombies to begin with….
Actually, the Republicans may be racist in their whole point of view, don’t know..not a Republican…I did vote for Obama, not anything to do with race..he was the most intelligent one running and I agreed with most of his policies…not the Republican, sell out the middle and lower classes to the Corp. machine….
What about the whole “NO SNITCHING” thing in the black community…if people would turn in the drug dealers selling poison to young black kids..the ones that are stealing the souls and all hope..of several generations by now..maybe a neighborhood or two could get turned around..and a productive economy could exist there…..I do think for first or even second offenders drug related…rehab. may save a few and not just hard time where they are ruined for good….but there is a time to weed out the ones killing the spirits of black youth…
But this whole Black intellectual angst about racism is counter productive….please, address the real problems in the black community…and blaming helps no one…education, family planning, nutrition, preventive health care….how to start a small business, and racism with banks etc. may be a factor there….
Not saying racism doesn’t exist…it does…but in multiple directions….
So, educate me…what will make a real world difference in the black community? I grew up extreme inner city…in 1971 all the other kids in the neighborhood within a half mile from my house, white and hispanic at my High School were on IV heroin. In Jr. High the hispanic against white racism and violence was so extreme I did 500 punches a day altenating between heavy bag and speed bag, ran a mile every day..every day for two years….to have the courage to go to school…I was not that tough, I was that scared….broke seven noses in the seventh grade to finally get the street credit so they left me alone….later was youngest bare knuckle open weight senior black belt in karate (Isshinryu, a legit style) in the state of Texas. Last week, still living in same neighborhood, did move out twenty five years, inherited house..back free rent..own..someone came on my front porch…took cat box with four kittens in it…cut mother cat’s throat, later three kittens ended up dead on my front yard…did call police..wanted neighborhood to see…no problems with any neighbors…random..
Also, while doing loss prevention security at most inner city Family Dollar in town…loss was $200 dollars a day with security and cameras there…a black man with a ski mask came in…pointed a snub nosed revolver at my chest and said ,”Get on the Floor”…I said, “Just take the money”…he did…we all lived…
Not to pat myself on the back…but I have seen inner city…and problems that lead people to crime…don’t hate any black person…but realistic, what will change this in the short term and long term is what is needed…
To preemptively negate that there is no need to “pull oneself up by the bootstraps” seems to worsen the situation..if a person doesn’t do what they can to improve whatever their lot is…waiting for someone else to or for the situation to magically change worsens the situation…
Education, HIV awareness and treatment, not having unplanned children, employment, whether jobs or starting a legit. business, nutrition…both food availability and nutritional awareness, health care, esp. preventive…on an on…are what need to be addressed, short term and long term…..
And yes, black people do not need to look to white people to get their identity…but too many inner city black youth look to the drug dealers, the pimps, the fast talkers…with a racket, the mothers with five children working the system..trading baby formula for smokes on the street are two often the ones emulated…
So, please, you tell me what will work….
@ TW
We’re not experts on what will work. We seek the same solutions that you do. Many of us work in our own communities trying to make a difference.
Sometimes it’s rewarding. Sometimes it’s discouraging.
You want a straight answer? A problem that took centuries of slavery and Jim Crow to create (over generations) is not going to get totally fixed in just one generation.
I truly wish that it could.
That’s not an excuse for bad behavior, but it’s going to take time to negate all of the negative effects that have been building up from many decades of screwing things up. When you mess up family structure, and economics, and education, and socialization, it doesn’t just snap back like a rubber band.
We all just have to keep on working at making it better, both Black people and White.
A few points were brought up earlier that I”d like to comment on.
1) Comparing the experiences of atheists and African-Americans is talking apples and oranges, but one point: there is a (self-identified and visibly) black president, and no such parallel for atheists. The Democrats won’t run an openly atheist presidential candidate because they fear it would galvanize voter turnout among the Christian Right.
Of course there most likely have been atheist (or at least agnostic) presidents who have concealed their beliefs. So atheists can certainly conceal themselves in a way people of dark skin cannot; but I ask, would you really consider things much better if you could avoid discrimination by changing your skin?
2) No discussion of privilige and oppression should ignore homosexuals. In America, Africa, and most of the world homosexuals face a level of discrimination and violence that is unmatched by any ethnicity. We know of the enslavement of Africans by European Americans, of their continuing oppression under Jim Crow, modern discrimination (and yes, white privilege), and the wounds all of this inflicted on black American culture. You know why so many people think that “all these gays” are a new thing? Because homosexuals were so fiercely persecuted that they couldn’t risk having the gatherings and rituals that create a shared culture.
3) I found a way to “change my colour” and be a minority – I moved to China. What strikes me most is how pyschologically exhausting it is to be stared at all day. Some people just call me “laowai” (foreigner) and don’t bother to learn my name. But most people are just curious and like me for being different. Of course it’s not at all like being black in America, but it’s a change from being white in Canada.
Amen….
are you kidding me? this is the stupidest post I have ever read. Your comparison with the mafia daughter is completely off.
If someone in my city has a slave how does that make me a slave owner? Slavery is alive more now than ever, there are over 100 million people in slavery worldwide and thats more than ever so why dont YOU do something about it and stop blaming white people for something that happened 2-3 generations ago. If you do your research the big city of 500,000 + people close to your home also has slave labour. Does you not doing anything about it make you as guilty of it as the people who are forcing the slaves to work? 1 million people per year are being trafficed across borders internationally to force work in the sex trade. Stop whining about the past and if you care about the issues do something about the situation today.for example spread awareness.
About the race issues…..America is so stupid with that, they dont realise that the day people stop caring and joke about race is the day the problem goes away. When you are so serious about it all, wondering whether you should call a black guy an african american or whether you are saying some stereotype of the blacks, than the contact is very distant and not real. thats still ways to go maybe america is on its way, I’d say 7-8 generations perhaps than things will be much better.
@ bobbi
And why do you assume that nobody is doing anything about it? There are many people who give money to anti-slavery organizations or volunteer time. I have made donations myself..
For other young blacks growing up to pimp….that is all it is….
Can I be a she-pimp? Because you’d be the first man-whore I’d turn out! That is if you could stop babbling for a moment and get to work!
Is anyone even taking TW’s obvious lack of education seriously?
No. Hence some bizarre responses from myself. Anyone care to join in?
Delusional because I won’t indulge and enable your dysfunctional concepts that blacks are owed a living here? Or that someone else is the cause for their unhappiness?
Delusional because you have the audacity to post such racist drivel. Did you do it with a straight face?
Or is it that you made it past community college and you are doing these blogs so the crack heads back in the hood don’t accuse you of acting white….just because you use proper English.
No, he is writing these post for folks like you who post these absurd and sometimes hilarious responses(I guess in many instances unintentionally so). Most of all, it provides endless comic fodder and for me personally. The racist responses are like something out of a satirical magazine. How literally ignorant some people are! You seem to ‘know’ alot about blacks and the ‘ghetto’ they all hail from. Anything to bolster your own self worth eh? Oh, the author of this blog has the patience of Job for your ignorant insults about ‘crackhead’ back in his old neighbourhood.
Because the family structures they are raised in influence them to basically be on the ball to play men for a sucker before they get played…
I see you were spurned by a black woman, that explains everything.
So, educate me
Nope, you will not get lessons in ni****ology from me. Perhaps someone else will be willing to give it a try. Besides, you seem to be already educated in the current stereotypes, why shatter you illusions? Also, people who teach get renumeration of some kind.
In America, Africa, and most of the world homosexuals face a level of discrimination and violence that is unmatched by any ethnicity.
Who taught these people homophobia? In many aboriginal cultures for example, such folk are referred to as two spirited and are almost sacred. Now when the white man came, he forced them to his viewpoint via residential schools etc. I wouldn’t be surprised if something similar occurred in many African societies, pre-colonialism. Of course all homosexuals are white, so they are the only homosexuals that count. Oh and how about being black in Canada? Oh, that must be out of your purview.
@Herneith
Who taught these people homophobia? In many aboriginal cultures for example, such folk are referred to as two spirited and are almost sacred. Now when the white man came, he forced them to his viewpoint via residential schools etc. I wouldn’t be surprised if something similar occurred in many African societies, pre-colonialism.
I’m sure Christian missionaries (and not just white ones) had some influence in spreading homophobia in Africa. However, I’d also point out that Islam has been just as influential. Finally, Uganda just passed a law establishing the death penalty for homosexulaity – a position on the issue more extreme than anything inherited from colonial times. Clearly there is more at play here than white influence, and I think your position denies the ability of Africans to think for themselves.
Of course all homosexuals are white, so they are the only homosexuals that count.
I don’t even know what that means. Homosexuality seems to be common across all human societies, although practised with different levels of discretion. They all “count” for the same amount, whatever that means.
Frankly, if you’re going to assign arbitrary views to me I wish they were a bit better thought-out.
Oh and how about being black in Canada? Oh, that must be out of your purview.
You’re right, I’ve never been black in Canada. But you have, and therefore your views on the repression of homosexuals are the only ones that count? Or did you bring that up for no reason at all?
However, I’d also point out that Islam has been just as influential.</em.
Oh, and Islam isn't capable of proselytising like Christianity is? I wrote pre-colonialism, that includes the Arab colonizers as well.
Finally, Uganda just passed a law establishing the death penalty for homosexuality – a position on the issue more extreme than anything inherited from colonial times.
It didn’t pass. Anyhow, who do you think is spearheading this movement—The inheritors of the colonialist Christian missionaries’ ideologies!
Homosexuality seems to be common across all human societies, although practised with different levels of discretion.
Racialized homosexuals are marginalizes in the white gay community, therefore, the white homosexuals are seen as the default homosexuals just as whites are seen as the default race.
But you have, and therefore your views on the repression of homosexuals are the only ones that count?
You brought up the fact that about being white in Canada as compared to being seen as a minority in China. I was referring to your ‘being white in Canada’ quip. I could care less who someone is humping in the scheme of things. But lets not be disingenuous here about the racism of white homosexuals towards black people, this would include both heterosexual and homosexual blacks. In fact the homosexual blacks have it worse than the white ones overall. Let me ask you a question. This post is about a common retort whites give when American slavery and it after effects are discussed, ‘My family never owned slaves’. It is not about Uganda or homosexuals. Why are you bringing it up?
To Herneith:
Can I be a she-pimp? Because you’d be the first man-whore I’d turn out! That is if you could stop babbling for a moment and get to work!
I don’t know about Canada but in the US women can be charged with pimping:
http://easterniowanewsnow.com/2011/04/14/cedar-rapids-woman-charged-with-pimping-again/
I guess in common parlance if you ran a house filled with male sex workers, then you could considered a madam. If they were physically attractive and capable and you routinely engaged them in quality assurance sessions then I know some women (and a few men…) who would call you lucky.
@Herneith
iOh, and Islam isn’t capable of proselytising like Christianity is? I wrote pre-colonialism, that includes the Arab colonizers as well.
Yes, of course Muslims proselytise, that’s why I brought it up. To point out that homophobic influence on Africa wasn’t limited to white preachers.
It didn’t pass. Anyhow, who do you think is spearheading this movement—The inheritors of the colonialist Christian missionaries’ ideologies!
Glad to hear it didn’t pass. As I recall, the proposal was met with considerable international condemnation (including from the former colonizers). Yes, there are powerful Christian lobbies pushing for these kinds of laws in developing nations, but outside of the existing context of African homophobia it wouldn’t be possible.
Racialized homosexuals are marginalizes in the white gay community, therefore, the white homosexuals are seen as the default homosexuals just as whites are seen as the default race.
I had no idea there were default homosexuals. I guess I’m not as in tune with the nuances of gay culture, but in the few gay clubs I’ve been to I’ve seen people of all ethnicities mingling easily. I assumed that if anything, their own experiences with prejudice and discrimination would make homosexuals less prone to racism.
In fact the homosexual blacks have it worse than the white ones overall.
Well the ones in Uganda certainly do.
Let me ask you a question. This post is about a common retort whites give when American slavery and it after effects are discussed, ‘My family never owned slaves’. It is not about Uganda or homosexuals. Why are you bringing it up?
That’s what the post was about, but the resulting discussion touched on everything from Irish slavery to atheism in high office. I was just picking up a few of the interesting threads.
“I assumed that if anything, their own experiences with prejudice and discrimination would make homosexuals less prone to racism.”
That would be a mistake. If anything, White male homosexuals often give themselves a pass on their ow racism, siting their own minority status.
@King
…White homosexuals often give themselves a pass on their own racism…”</l."
I have, more than once, spoken with white gay men white who have actually told me, quite openly, that they are 'racist' because Black people are 'homophobic'!
I see I still haven’t got the hang of making italics work properly!
King said:
‘…White homosexuals often give themselves a pass on their own racism…’
Bulanikgirl said: ‘I have, more than once, spoken with white gay men white who have actually told me, quite openly, that they are ‘racist’ because Black people are ‘homophobic’!
In part I agree here. This is one group I have encountered who are the most likely to stereotype people. Also, in my experience and surprisingly, they often harbour misogynistic and disrespectful opinions on women particularly black women. Whilst often they admire and revere the physique of black men, I have never found that this translates to black women. The gay people I have known over the years much prefer to picture BW as chariacatures and unless she is strong and has an ‘athletic’ build they dont initially get their respect. The amount of rows I have had with gay guys who try to liken the predjudice they have received as the same as what I go through and then, mostly unwittingly, they insult me and my intelligence by foisting their stereotypical opinions on me. Maybe I have been unfortunate and met with a ‘bad individuals’, over the years I dont know.
I’m pretty sure that these people are not reflective or representative of the whole gay community….
@King, Demerera
This kind of ‘tat for tat’ hate-transaction is certainly not typical of all white gay men.
However, like Demerera, I can only attest to my own personal experience which seems to confirm that there is a form of thinking among a portion of white gay men which almost ‘cultivates’ a dislike of Black women.
I first encountered this when I was on the periphery of a conversation in which 2 gay men where joking with a few women and calling them “breeders”.
I always thought that a ‘breeder’ was the designation given by white male slaver owners to their Black female chattel that were given up to ‘slave reproduction’, or breeding. I told them the 2 men this, the most light-hearted manner I could muster, but neither were too bothered. This surprised me as both men were professional trade unionists, otherwise serious, thinking people who made it their life’s work to fight injustice, discrimination, and so on…
Please excuse my typos…
@Bulanikgirl
I suspect the term “breeder” or it’s non-English equivalent has been used in all slave societies in some form, as slave-owners have usually equated slaves with livestock.
That said, I’ve always taken the use of term by gay men and women to be more innocent. Although at first glance it carries the same connotations of superiority, referring to heterosexuals as breeders also acknowledges the inability of homosexual unions to produce children. It’s a rather self-depreciating slur, and dare I say… it’s kind of funny?
Maybe if homosexuals were the majority I might not have laughed out loud the first time I was called “breeder”.
@Awrgug
I got the joke, and the irony, straight away.
I’m just not sure though, if the people I mentioned the other connotation to, got it!
I guess I’m not as in tune with the nuances of gay culture, but in the few gay clubs I’ve been to I’ve seen people of all ethnicities mingling easily.
Perhaps they were looking for a leg-over, and any racist concerns went by the wayside. Are you familiar with that free newspaper ‘Now’? Many a time I have read the ‘singles’ advertisements for entertainment. In fact I have burst out laughing when reading an obscene one. It read like something a early adolescent boy would come up with. Anyhow I digress, quite a few contain stipulations that no blacks or asians need apply. This is apparently a common complaint. I think the black men and the asian men should get together! The racialized gays seem to be afflicted with the same self-loathing woes as their straight counterparts. My philosophy is more men for me to appreciate! Except for their sexuality, gays ain’t different than their heterosexual brethren.
@Herneith
Well this breeder felt like sending them Grace Jones to give ‘em a good whipping!
I talked about this over at The Fighting 44s (the legendary Asian American Blog) a ways back.
http://www.thefighting44s.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6720
@King, Demerera
Okay, thanks – now I see that Demerera and I are not imagining it!
Perhaps Demerera noticed this phenomenon because it goes on, and not because we don’t understand humorously-intending, self-deprecating slurs.
@King and Bulanikgirl
King: I read your blog with interest. It brings forth much that I have experienced in my encounters with gay white men, even down to the ‘you go girl’ finger clicking/head snapping that you and your bloggers discuss.
Whats the saying about people making jokes of things they really do admire?? Anyway, I think deep down there is an admiration for the strength of black women and by taking on this persona, it gives them courage. Unfortunately, they chariacature the most negative facets of any BW and use this as the measure for all BW. They cannot/will not except that we are all different and individual.
Its amazing how they will discriminate in terms of looks too. If a BW is attractive and confident with it they will steer clear, labelling her ‘bitchy looking’ with ‘attitude’.
Well this breeder felt like sending them Grace Jones to give ‘em a good whipping!
Methinks this would be more of a pleasurable experience to some rather than a punishment – but that goes for many hetrosexual men too lolol
@Demerera, King
“They cannot/will not except that we are all different and individual.” Too true.
In my own experience, the ‘caricature’-mode seems to kick in if the appearance of the BW in questions ticks the boxes that more readily fits the racist stereotypes among male gays.
Once a male gay activist put me right about a couple of things he had noticed in racist white male gay thinking and BW, such as:
- Firstly,privileges in society were scarce and no-one in power is going to help you get those privileges if you did not use everything in your arsenal to acquire them, so – yes –
- Undermine the most attractive BW with confidence because they draw the sexual interest of MIP (men in power) and are a direct threat, and, also
- Champion the less attractive BW for the opposite reason, but this would also bring with it the kudos of Black and female support when needed – because BW didn’t like beautiful BW either!
I don’t know how true this is – but what an education….
Bulanikgirl Undermine the most attractive BW with confidence because they draw the sexual interest of MIP (men in power) and are a direct threat,
Champion the less attractive BW for the opposite reason, but this would also bring with it the kudos of Black and female support when needed – because BW didn’t like beautiful BW either! And an instant bodyguard too. No matter the build or stature of the woman in question there is a perception that if you are black, you must be able to turn it on and be aggressive.
This seems to make sense and would explain a lot Bulanikgirl. Divide and conquer is the approach many ‘groups’ take so this would be a way to achieve any particular goal.
@ Bulanikgirl & Demerera
In my opinion, who you sleep with does not give you a pass on racism. A White man does not suddenly become a POC because he fancies other men in bed, or as long-term partners.
And the whole idea of taking on the ghetto stereotype of Black women, then magnifying it as a caricature of the flamboyant gay man (oh no he di’nt) does not pass the smell test. If there is a 40-year-old White guy, purposely walking around trying to sound like he’s a 19-year old Black rapper, it will raise a few eyebrows. However, if the same man happens to be attracted to other men, then he is somehow welcome to impersonate Foxy Brown? I don’t get it.
Then you have other problems with the “Blacks need not apply” dating ads, and the rice queens, and other race-selective behaviors, on top of the obvious prejudice comments. It’s not that I think that there is some specific conspiracy of racism amongst gay Whites, I just point out that sexual preference does not erase either your Whiteness or your prejudice. A White gay man can be just as prejudice as a White redneck, albeit probably expressed in different ways. My point is that gayness is not an excuse to stereotype, exclude, or impersonate.
@King
A White gay man can be just as prejudice as a White redneck, albeit probably expressed in different ways. My point is that gayness is not an excuse to stereotype, exclude, or impersonate.
I totally agree. Just as homophobia can’t be justified by tradition or culture.
@ awryguy.
Agreed.
@Demerera, King, Awryguy
Regarding those discussions I had with white gay men mentioned earlier. To fully contextualize it, I think it could be useful to outline a few other issues that came up at the time.
It is my view that the experience of homophobia – especially the cruel, and sometimes violent end of it – is not that different from some experiences of anti-Black racism.
Demerera, I am not sure what direction your discussions with white gay men took as they likened their experience with yours of racism?
I have heard it said by some (heterosexual) Black people that gays (meaning I think, homosexual whites) choose to be gay, whereas Black people cannot normally just ‘hide’ their Blackness to escape prejudice and escape the worst aspects of bigotry. So, the saying goes, white gays can choose to avoid being gay and therefore avoid being targets of homophobia should they wish, whilst Blacks do not have the luxury of choice.
I can only say that the discussions I had with white gay men were probably more good-natured than those I had with some Black people about homosexuality and homophobia, because the following was revealed:
- that some Black people think that gayness is just another outgrowth of exclusively ‘white’ cultural and racial degeneracy, and,
- that male heterosexual rape of women (whether straight women and lesbian) was actually more ‘acceptable’ than any consensual activity between gay men, because that kind of rape was at least ‘normal’ (and maybe no bad thing for a Lesbian)…..
These heated discussions made me wonder not only about the causes for some Black people’s cultural arrogance (the “white-people-are-racist-because-sexually-sick-and-not-like-us” argument) but also about:
), and,
1. the ‘double whammy’ experience of being gay and Black – or even being Lesbian and Black (triple-whammy
2. the way that this belief just added enforcement to the sexualization of women’s rape as no more than an only-to-be-expected-but-hardly-serious infraction.
Still haven’t got the hang of doing italics right… I thought I had only italicized 2 words!!
@Bulanikgirl
You’re probably using this slash \ instead of this one /
@Awryguy, perhaps. And I was sure that I was finally getting it… ;-DD
@ Bulanikgirl
There is homophobia in the Black community, as there is in All communities. I can’t be sure that it’s higher among Blacks than elsewhere. In my experience, it isn’t, but I can’t be sure, based on my own observations. Much of it depends on your definition of “homophobia.”
@King.
Surely. I can also only speak of my own experience.
@Bulanikgirl, King, Awryguy
It is my view that the experience of homophobia – especially the cruel, and sometimes violent end of it – is not that different from some experiences of anti-Black racism.
‘Demerera, I am not sure what direction your discussions with white gay men took as they likened their experience with yours of racism?’
Yes, Bulanikgirl,
It is much as you initially describe, likening their own experiences to that of anti-black racism. On discussing things the people I spoke with certainly could relate to many aspects of being on the sharp end of discrimination and prejudice. In a general sense it was agreed that we have that in common but the way this manifests itself for the gay guys I have encountered, unless they are openly ‘camp’ and proudly parade their sexuality, it is not as immediate as what I have encountered as a black woman. But, when bigotry does rear its ugly head, it evokes the same/similar feelings in the ‘victim’ – for sure. I have never thought about sexual preferences being a ‘choice’ though like you I have come across hetrosexuals who are disdainful of gay people and who think that somehow it is!!
In terms of the experiences I have aluded to in previous posts though, being honest, I have been left perplexed when particular individuals have reverted back to the cliche ridden sterotypes. Particularly when they have been so candid about their experiences and felt things so acutely themselves. Clearly, I am not speaking about ALL gay men here and not even about all the gay men I have encountered or know. In fact, if I think about it objectively, the people that I am referring to are of a certain age and generation anyway so a significant factor is potentially that they are just a product of their time but, in light of what they have and do go through, I would have hoped for some sensitivity/tact/awareness to be more apparent.
My bisexual friend came ‘out’ to me years ago, I wasnt surprised and half suspected it but when she revealed this to some of our other friends, they would discuss it in her absence and as I was particularly close to her they would say ‘don’t you feel uneasy around her…etc etc’ which I didnt. She always had a ‘colourful’ sex life and she used to delight/shock me with tales of her sexploits too lol but one thing I always admired about her was that she never judged anybody. She would have been deeply hurt by what those guys thought about her had she of known, but to be fair, they too learned to overcome their prejudices and fear – she was too decent a person and too good a friend to lose for anyone to ‘hold’ that against her for any length of time. Now, I’m not saying they were all enlightened but certainly more aware and in as diverse a society as this is, that can only be a good thing.
I understand your are hurting and are in need of some reconciliation but writing a post about a problem without offering up solutions is a waste of everyone’s time – including that of the writer. You’ve made no ground whatsoever on this topic; you’re just stirring the pot. As a very empathic white person (I’ve had nearly debilitating guilt since I was 8 and first learned of the treatment of Native Americans and Africans) I was hoping to add to my understanding of the black person’s position on this issue specifically: what response does an AA desire when confronting a WA with the enslavement of AA?
@aeduclos@msn.com
A general point, rather than in answer to your question (which, frankly, doesn’t sound genuine, BTW):
Do you really think the writer has really been wasting his time?
Some people actually learn quite a lot and are impelled to think deeply about this, and the many, many other topics Abagond writes about – you obviously have no idea, have you?
As a very empathic white person (I’ve had nearly debilitating guilt since I was 8 and first learned of the treatment of Native Americans and Africans) I was hoping to add to my understanding of the black person’s position on this issue specifically: what response does an AA desire when confronting a WA with the enslavement of AA?
You had debilitating guilt since you were 8? Maybe you are mentally ill. As for what to ask an AA(Alcolholic Anonymous?), how about a forty ouncer and a case of beer? Oh…enslavement! Give me my 40 acres and a mule factoring in today’s money and inflation; that should be a couple of billion dollars..Yes I would be willing to forgive!
My family owned slaves. Not really ashamed of it either. My great-something-grandfather treated them well, even let them become educated and had them write a book he dictated (he actually never learned to read and write). Every race has been a slave at some point. Its just how human history went. Time to get over it. Wounds can’t heal if you won’t let them.
Also, while thinking about it, slavery was actually a good thing for modern black people. I don’t think anyone can argue that living in the U.S. is worse than living in Africa. Not saying it was right, but saying a lot of good came out of it too. Diversity = Prosperity. And as for me benefiting from my family’s slaves, not always. I’m going to school on loans, my family is on welfare from lack of job opportunity, and we get wonderful reverse racism living as a white minority in a black majority in our area. I think it’s time to stop looking at black/white and look at human/human instead.
@Unashamed
I can’t even.
Why don’t you let Black people tell you whether they think being in the US or Carribean or Latin America is indeed better for them than being raised in Africa.
FYI, Africa is a continent not a country…some places good some places bad just like most of the world. Having lived here my whole life, I can confidently say I would never want to live anywhere else.
My family did own slaves and owned quite a bit of land in Northern Alabama and used their sweet and blood to profit. I know that and acknowledge it. But I refuse to feel guilty for something that my family did several generations before I was even born. I agree, slavery is a horrible thing, something that must never happen to anyone, but I cannot do anything about my family’s past, so why feel guilty about it? One probably reads my post and thinks of me as a racist or a bigot; well feel free to do so, but I am a avid support of civil rights, not just based on race but nationality, sexual orientation, and religion. For me as an American I feel the obligation to support such things because American will not live up to its own creed until there is equal rights for all people in all circumstances.
@Pollynkorect Is it just me, or is there a distinct correlation pride in one’s racial ancestry and lack of anything about oneself to be proud of?
@ Sid,
You’ve hit the nail on the head right there.
Well, both your (Abagond’s) post and the myriad number of posts that agree with you prove that “white” people aren’t the only ones that can make bigoted generalizations.
I am glad that you at least mentioned that millions of people came here from Europe AFTER slavery and many African-Americans (not sure if most, but it is possible) have White slave-owner ancestry. The truth is, likely EVERYBODY in this world has ancestors that were slave owners somewhere at some point in time, whether they were “White”, “Black”, “Brown” or “Yellow”. However, the rest after that are gross generalizations.
Many of the people considered “White” today were not back then, especially those that arrived in the late 19th and early 20th centuries of Sicilian ancestry (I have Sicilian ancestors on one side) due to their complex racial and ethnic heritage, which includes Arab, North African Berber, Italian, Greek, Black African, Catalan,Aragonese and Norman, among others. Black slavery and Jim Crow are definitely not ignored in school. I don’t know how much it is mentioned in the South, but it is definitely taught in the North and in the West. You know what’s NOT talked about in schools? The lynching of 11 Sicilians in Louisiana in 1891 (considered the largest mass lynching in U.S. history) for a crime they were not guilty of. The people involved in the lynching were people of Irish and French ancestry AS WELL AS some Blacks. Lynchings of Sicilians continued in the years after that. Here is a one link: http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~lamadiso/articles/lynchings.htm
It includes pictures of three of the men in the later 1899 lynching, all full-blooded Sicilian (a rarity these days). There are many other documented cases of lynchings of Italians in different parts of the country besides Louisiana including: New York, Florida, Pennsylvania and Colorado, amongst others. In no way am I trying to claim that it happened more to those of Italian descent in this country than to African-Americans, nor should we forget that Mexicans, Chinese and Native Americans were also lynched, but is also certainly happened to Italians.
Sicilians in general were not considered “White” by white Southerners and their children were often not allowed in White schools and so went to Black schools. Sicilians were often called “Dagos”, “Guineas” and “Wops”, among other things and still continue to be called those things, in addition to “Greaseball”. Sicilians are continued to be stereoptyped as being in the Mafia, including, it seems, by yourself, although you didn’t explicitly mention “Sicilians” in regards to that, but that is often what is implied.
I’d also like to inform you that besides African-Americans, many Sicilian-Americans were instrumental in the formation of jazz, which paved the way for other muscial styles, but is most often mainly attributed to African-Americans. Many of these Sicilian-American pioneers included African-Americans in their bands, even when they were told by segregationists not to. From the Wikipedia page on Louis Prima:
“He became interested in jazz when he heard it streaming out of clubs and by fellow black musicians, including Louis Armstrong. At the time, segregation between blacks and whites was extremely prevalent. However, Italians and African Americans got along famously. Each shared the same economic, social, and political values. They also embodied similar entertainment rituals. Clubs such as Matranga’s, Joe Segrettas, Tonti’s Social Club, and Lala’s Big 25 were all owned and operated by Italians but allowed Blacks and Italians to play[3].”
During the tragic Hurricane Katrina crisis, all I heard on the news referring to New Orleans’ great jazz musicians was the African-American ones. Not a single Sicilian-American jazz musician was mentioned, not even Louis Prima. What a shame. Unfortunately, he is RARELY even mentioned when talking about the history of jazz and swing. And when people hear his songs, featured in many popular movies (such as “Analyze This” – a Mafia movie – uggh), people assume that it is Louis Armstrong singing (their voices were quite similar).
Prima had visible African ancestry in his Sicilian bloodline (do a Yahoo! images search for him). Then there’s the 1922 case of Rollins vs State in Alabama, in which Jim Rollins, a Black man, was convicted of “miscegenation”. He argued that the woman in question that he was with was “not white” because she came from Sicily. The court found him not guilty, because they found that: “The mere fact that the testimony showed this woman came from Sicily can in no sense be taken as conclusive that she was therefore a white woman, or that she was not a negro or a descendant of a negro.” Link: http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~thematic/umbach/fallpolice/rollins.html
There were also Italian-Americans (with ancestry from various regions of Italy) that made contributions to the Black Civil Rights Movement. Among them: Father Groppi (in Milwaukee), Vince Lombardi (parents from Salerno in mainland Italy. He was denied service at a restaurant in the South because the waitress thought that he was Black. Among many other strides, he refused to allow White segregationist hotel owners to make his Black players stay overnight in the bus. More information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vince_Lombardi) and Mario Savio of Sicilian descent, who also worked hard for Civil Rights for African-Americans and others in the 1960s.
Watching any of Spike Lee’s movies that have become such a big part of popular culture, one would never have any idea about the history of Sicilian-Americans, the prejudice that they,too, have gone through, their close historical relationship with African-Americans and their part in advancing Civil Rights. So, how exactly are all people considered “White” by you benefiting from Black slavery in this country?
You said: “Even today whites continue to benefit from racism in the form of better education, higher incomes, longer lives and all the other unearned benefits of white privilege that have grown out of slave days.”
Not all “White” people fit that description. Many don’t. And not just in the Appalachians, as many people assume. Contrary to your assumption, not all who aren’t considered “Black” have peachy, happy, trouble-free lives. Also, how is a “longer life” necessarily a good thing? It depends on what age you are talking about and how much of an age difference there actually is. The difference in life expectancy between Euro-Americans and African-Americans is less than 5 years. Not only that, but Latino Americans have 2 years greater a life expectancy than Euro-Americans and Asian-Americans have a life expectancy almost ten years longer than Euro-Americans. Most people that live into old age suffer badly from all sorts of health problems, anyway.
You said: “Whites want to benefit from their ugly past – and their less ugly present”
Again, you are lumping all “Whites” together, as if everybody that falls under that label has the same history in this country. Quite contradictory to what you stated at the beginning about only 2% of whites owning slaves, millions of “Whites” coming to this country after slavery and that Blacks are far more likely to have White slave owner ancestors in this country. So, if you believe all of that to be true, wouldn’t that imply that Blacks are the ones with an ugly past? Also, if reparations for slavery were ever to be imposed in this country (which I’m guessing you’re all for), wouldn’t that mean that the vast majority of people paying into it would be Blacks? So that they would essentially have to be paying themselves?
Please stop making hateful generalizations about those of European ancestry, when NOBODY’S ancestry in this world, including Black-Americans, is totally “clean” and “innocent” of wrongdoings.
Celo, interesting information you have there about Sicilian history
Nothing against Louis Prima, one of the greats, but, there is nothing in Italian culture that has the syncopation and call responce layering of pollyrythms that the Afro diasporic cultural contribution brought to the table. And, it is the foundation that jazz is built on. For sure , black American jazz musicians were part of their American culture, and , some, exactly because Jim Crow laws forced them to have to play with only black people, were classicly trained and brought harmonic knowledge from all the European countries that had contributions to the classical music cannon, including Italy and its rich opera history.
And, there have always been white men who loved jazz, and white players who went the extra mile to really understand it. Like you point out , Louis Prima, there were also Cuban musicians who were early associetes of Loius Armstrong.
In Chicago, Benny Goodman , who is Jewish, had one of the first integrated bands with Lionel Hampton and Teddy Wilson
Mezz Mezzrow was anothe white musician who understood many things in black American jazz…he never was as important a player as Loius Prima, but, he knew what the deal was.
But, jazz is black American music. The grooves and dances are from AFro diasporic concepts,. The harmonies are from all over Europe , filtered through the blues, another black American concept
You just dont have the groove concepts in Europe that they have in black Africa
@B R
It would have been enough to state that Jazz was a synthesis of musical concepts that couldn’t have taken place anywhere else in the world. “Jazz” as such may have been named by black Americans, but nothing exists in isolation nor is started from scratch. Once the synthesis was made, it spread far beyond its roots and became a major music form.
You can listen to some great Jazz from the early 1900′s at this site:
http://www.redhotjazz.com/buddy.html
No , Joshua, trying to make it seem like jazz was a magical synthesis put together by various influences is not doing justice to the basic Afro diasoporic roots that is the backbone and foundation of what jazz music is.
There is no culture that puts together pollyrhythmic duple triple , call responce, syncopated , made for certain kinds of dancing meant to go exactly with these beats, like the Afro diasporic cultures
The same dynamic played out in any country black African slaves were brought to, Cuba, Brazil , Jamaica, Puerto Rico, Trinidad, Haiti, etc
Just look at their popular musics and dances
Dont fool yourself, really research these musics and you will find the truth
By the way, this debate about jazz belongs on this thread:http://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/04/03/miles-davis/
Id be happy to meet you over there to debate this subject
The race of people who have been picked on worse than blacks is the ginger. No black person alive today can say they are picked on and experience more negative judgement than gingers.
This guy is just tryin to keep racism alive. If you want racism to be over than quit blamin present whites for something they had no control of hundreds of years ago. NAACP keeps racism alive also, the whites don’t have an organization that claims racism every time something happens to a white person. Im not sayin forget the past but quit blamin whites today for what happened years ago. If my family owned slaves or not has nothing to do with me and how I view other races.
john, please allow me to introduce you to:
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/06/01/broken-record-dept/
So, discussing racism is what causes racism?
Is discussing murder the cause of murder? Will there be fewer incidents of murder if our society pretends that murder doesn’t exist?
Let’s give it a try and see what happens….
Several centuries of social engineering based on race has resulted in a present-day racist reality. In the past white American society actively and openly opposed, enslaved and terrorized black people in order to attain social, economic, and political advantages. Now racism is camouflaged by claiming that it is not about the multi-generational misdistribution of wealth and power but about whether black people can use the same latrine as a white person. The latter is just the open sore while the forrmer is the much more deadly septicemia.
The Klu Klux Klan, for example, used intimidation and violence to achieve political, demographic, and economic aims. Even during segregation black people made economic progress and racist whites were not at all pleased. Ever heard of the Tulsa race riots in which the successful black town of Greenwood (‘Negro’ Wall Street) was torched (even bombed from the air) and hundreds killed? It was never rebuilt to its former glory. In fact, they’d hatched a plan to play with re-zoning and property values in order to prevent its reconstruction. These events were swept very much under the carpet with scarce reporting even in the newspapers of the time.
So when today’s whites comment on whatever ills they claim exist within the “black community” after centuries of slavery and Jim Crow it is really like cutting off someone’s legs and then calling them shorty. They should shut up and worry about fixing the psychopathical tendencies within their own group. But despite their predilection for discussing the problems of “others” whites tend get nervous whenever POC sit and discuss white racism. They often show up lecturing POC on how much they need to “forget the past”. It is not in their interest for POC to understand WHY society is structured as it is but to accept it as a given. Even if they claim they’re not racist they instinctively know that.
Broken record indeed!
Fiamma “Is discussing murder the cause of murder? Will there be fewer incidents of murder if our society pretends that murder doesn’t exist?”
No. Pretending murder doesn’t exist won’t stop murder. But not inciting racial hatred will probably result in a few less. Abusing history and making false claims of racism against others does create racism. Which is, of course, exactly what abag and most of you nutbags want.
“…Which is, of course, exactly what *abag* and most of you *nutbags* want.”
*****
Hmmm,,,, seems to me that mr. (perennially agitated/agent provocateur/agenda troll) duckgoofs is trying awfully hard to get himself BANNED from this blog.
: / Can’t you ban yourself, or do you need some moderated assistance??
You always hear from some white person that they had nothing to do with slavery so why should they have to endure hearing about the consequences slavery has created. Its hard to imagine with all the evidence on the table, of discrimination and outright racism and the obstacles thrown directly and purposfully in black peoples way ( Jim Crow laws or segragation in national sports just back in 1949 or so police profiling etc etc) that they cant get there is racism in society and if you are white, you dont get the institutional racism or discrimination that came directly out of slavery.
And I understand the black people who say , dont worry about slavery in the past, just deal with the very blatent racism in society right now…at the same time , I do see how slavery has still left ugly traces of its existance on anyplace in the Americas that had black African slaves brought to their shores
Please compile all your posts together in a book. We need it.
so a white person saying ‘i never owned slaves’ is like the daughter of a murdering mafia boss wearing jewels saying she never killed anybody? That is the worst analogy I ever heard. Did the guy who lived 2 blocks away get any diamond jewelry? If white people today benefit from the slavery of the past, then everyone benefits from it. Because what you are saying is that the reason things are so good in the US is because of slavery, then every person living here is a beneficiary of it.
I don’t care what you say – my family was poor, late immigrants, farmers or small neighborhood business runners. My great grandfather was an immigrant, who worked a small farm until he was 99. My grandfather laid cement until well into his 70′s. Obviously my farfar’s far didn’t arrive until slavery was over & I don’t know of any special benefit he received, because he worked hard land labor until the day he died. I, myself, had a young mother, divorced with 2 kids, poor, free lunch at school & I never got any better or special treatment at school or anywhere else because I was white. Anything I obtained it was because myself into an almost early grave, some years working 6 days a week with no vacation time, 50-60 hours a week for years.
How dare you talk about some murdering father and a hypocritical diamond encrusted daughter receiving the benefits of his killings as a comparison to all white people – that’s the most racist pile of garbage I’ve ever heard.
to say that the anti-irish sentiment amongst the anglo-protestant community at the time was wholly based on religion is ridiculous, ignorant, and completely unfounded in reality. after my ancestors land was taken by the same group that owned most of the slaves, my family was FORCED to immigrate to America or starve. So any benefit you see in my bloodline was forced upon me, not that I dwell on that. history is ugly. for a lot of people. I, born in 1984, am the first male in my family on either side to not work in a coal mine, steel mill, or as a subsistence farmer. my great great grandfather was killed while working as an indentured servant of the railroad company outside media, pa and buried in an unmarked grave to the side of the tracks, killed by a “nativist” mob because he was Irish, not solely because he was Catholic. i am from a mixed neighborhood in Philly widely known as one of the “worst” in terms of poverty and crime. I still live here. my family goes back 4 generations here. we never made it much farther than the piers we arrived on from Ireland. did your family have a terrible shake in the hand fate dealt? absolutely. worse than most? probably. but black people as a group are the only oppressed people to ever try to survive in America. I’m more interested in evolving as a species than assigning blame, particularly in a society that is clearly making progress, albeit not as fast as anyone would like. I don’t blindly and generally hate the English for what they did to my ancestors because that would be ridiculous. we need to see each other as individuals and judge based on the content of the individual, not the assumed group identity based on generalizations. that is the only hope we as a human race have for a decent future – a future i believe could be realized. call me dopey and optimistic, but anger and blind judgement doesn’t get us anywhere. it makes me sick to think of the africans plight in this country and the centuries of abuse they have endured. i do not mean to lessen it or trivialize it by my comments. but it is time to accept the past for what it was and put our collective energy in to making a better future while accepting the horrible truths of our collective past. by the logic presented in the original post, I would have every right to expect ALL people of protestant English decent to assume blame for something they as individuals had no part in, regardless of their ancestors actions. if you think all white people in this country have an easy ride, you’ve never spent time in Kensington, Philadelphia, PA.
I’m Russian. My family didn’t own slaves OR benefit from slaves. Not African ones at least (and if we’re talking about enslaving your own race that opens a whole different can of worms. One in which your ancestors are not innocent.)