HBD (1994- ), short for “human biodiversity”, is the form of pseudoscientific racism that Steve Sailer, Half Sigma, OneSTDV and others believe in. It underlies Herrnstein and Murray’s “The Bell Curve” (1994) and was laid out in J. Philippe Rushton’s “Race, Evolution and Behavior” (1995). It grows out of the science paid for by the Pioneer Fund.
It believes that 50% to 80% of human behaviour and intelligence is wired into the brain by the genes that you get from your parents at conception. Being mostly genetic means that intelligence and behaviour:
- Does not change much throughout life
- Is shaped more by evolution than by society.
- Is not going to be hugely different among most of those of the same race and sex. (So the stereotypes about blacks are pretty much true.)
Important teachings:
- Race realism: Race is a fact of nature just like one’s sex. Mankind has evolved separately on each continent, affecting not just their hair and skin but their brains – and penises – too.
- Blacks are naturally faster runners: They have been winning the 100-metre run at the Olympics since like forever. Proof that the races are genetically different in more than outward appearance – and that HBDers can say something nice about black people.
- IQolatry:IQ tests are a good measure of human intelligence. They work equally well all over the world. IQ is not everything but it does seem to be the main cause of success and failure in life, for both people and countries. Important IQs to remember:
- 113 Jewish
- 106 Asian
- 103 White
- 89 Latino
- 85 Black
- Snow Makes You Smarter: Whites and north-east Asians have the most intelligence because they have lived for so long in the coldest (and therefore most challenging) part of the world.
- Social Darwinism: From the above they conclude that the injustices of society and history in regard to race and sex are the natural outcomes of genetic differences.
They do not think they are racists – they are not like Stormfront or the Klan! But most middle-class White Americans who come across them seem to think so, which is pretty bad.
Stuff HBDers seem to forget:
- Correlation is not cause. Much of what they say about IQ forgets this.
- The genetics that affect intelligence is poorly understood. Some do point this out but believe it is just a matter of time before science proves them right. But that is faith, not science.
- There is no good, broad sampling of IQs in Africa, Latin America and most of Asia. Not even China as a whole.
- Genetic time (evolution) is way too slow to account for the ups and downs of history. High-IQ northern Europe, for example, was a backwaters till 1600 but now is not.
- IQs they forget to remember:
- 92 Greeks
- 87 Mesopotamians (Iraq)
- 86 Andy Warhol
- 85 White Americans in the 1950s (according to the Flynn Effect)
- 83 Egyptians
- 79 Mayans (Guatemala)
- Black Americans in the 1940s from the northern states did better on the army IQ test than White Americans from the south.
- All clear advances in hominid intelligence took place in Africa.
See also:
- HBD Bibliography – tons of links!
- Blogs
- Steve Sailer’s iSteve Blog
- Half Sigma
- OneSTDV
- Asian of Reason
- Guy White
- Sagat
- Gucci Little Piggy – commenter Chuck
- HBD is fake
- IQ
- guns, germs and steel
- just world doctrine
- equality
- racism is unnatural
I generally agree with this, but I am not sure about the statement on Neanderthals. First of all, we are not quite sure if it was our (Homo Sapiens Sapiens’) fault for their extinction. Also, we still don’t know much about them, their intelligence or behavior. We have no idea what was going on, so arguing our species was somehow “better” or better adapted is not the best thing to do, imo.
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The Neanderthals of cold Europe were no match for the humans who came from hot Africa.
Ouch. *cue drapto infestation*
Brava, Abagond, et merci.
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What’s the point in focusing on and trying to find racial differences anyway? What if it all the HBD stuff was proven to be true? Hooray social stratification based on race! Why? Oh because of a couple IQ points and a couple of milliseconds in the 100 yard dash.
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Thanks for the link.
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Actually, I disagree. The whole HBD thing has a precise point and a goal; that’s why it’s so popular among certain people. It argues that races are a biological fact and not a social construct. Meaning, they are “natural” and “set in stone”.
There’s nothing we can do about it, it’s just the way nature is; it doesn’t mean we are responsible about them and we can’t do anything to change them nothing more than we can change the fact female humans are born with vaginas. It’s sure something beyond our control and doesn’t depend on our behavior, right?
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I don’t understand the point Mira is making regarding vaginas.
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@ Boddler
You just like saying that word!
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The point is, it’s a physical, biological fact about female body that has nothing to do with society, its norms and values towards women, etc. We are not responsible for it! lol
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No jasonburns, because so-called oppressed groups use achievement gaps as an example of the oppressive culture’s institutional racism and bigotry.
By ignoring HBD truths, black people can rely on victimology that has sustained them as a people for 40 years now. Instead, it isn’t society that is keeping them from achieving on par with white people in this country, it is inherent deficiencies in intelligence and non-criminality.
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Really? And which particular group of Black genetics is deficient?
Oh, let me guess… all of them?
Haha.. you really are about as clever as a bag of wet cement, Chuck. Keep on ducking the questions, and keep on believing in your religion for the inept, if it gives you hope for yourself.
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I be I’m going to regret this, but I’ll ask:
How do you inherit non-criminality?
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I be I’m going to regret this, but I’ll ask:
How do you inherit non-criminality?
Don’t regret it! If nothing else, you will get a comical response!
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If black people cling to the achievement gap argument, then white people cling just as tenaciously to HBD. Truth is relative for each side.
europeans and their white offspring are genetically deficient anyway (mutant albinos/neanderthal mixed species most likely), it’s only a matter of time before they are extinct and we won’t have to deal with them anymore. Having a conversation with them about their defective nature is like teaching a colorblind autistic how to solve a rubik’s cube. Hopeless.
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First of all, here is a real undenieable empirical fact that shoots down one of the main arguments of HBDers and their kind:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olmeus_Charles
Yes, a black guy is the slowest long distance runner ever in the history of olympics! He was so slow that he delayed the whole olympic games for full fourteen minutes and ran alone in the stadium for six laps. And his buddies were the slowest on shorter distances! HA! What say thee HDBers?? Whos fast and whose not?? 😀
(personally I think the guy was having fun on everybody else, including the tv viewers :D)
@aiych: really? How about them teenage mutant ninja turtles? 😀
@chuck:
“By ignoring HBD truths, black people can rely on victimology that has sustained them as a people for 40 years now. Instead, By ignoring HBD truths, black people can rely on victimology that has sustained them as a people for 40 years now. Instead, it isn’t society that is keeping them from achieving on par with white people in this country, it is inherent deficiencies in intelligence and non-criminality. ”
Say what?
“it isn’t society that is keeping them from achieving on par with white people… it is inherent… non-criminality”.
So, blacks should really get going on in criminality since the non-criminality is keeping them down? And, it is the gentical in-herited criminality of the whites that has given them an advantage over the blacks?
Say what, dude??:D
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jas0nburns said:
“What’s the point in focusing on and trying to find racial differences anyway? What if it all the HBD stuff was proven to be true? Hooray social stratification based on race! Why? Oh because of a couple IQ points and a couple of milliseconds in the 100 yard dash.”
White Americans want to believe their society is just and that they got to where they are fair and square. HBD allows them to do that. Like what Chuck just did in his comment, it allows them to dismiss charges of white racism as black victimology.
Most whites do not need HBD to do that – they just go on believing in racism while remaining blind to it. HBDers seem to be too race conscious for that to work. So they need science to excuse their racism. They are the thinking man’s skinhead.
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Excellent post. Also important to note that IQ is subjective, testing measures are questionable, and it measures only certain types of intelligence.
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@ALL: Happy new year!!!
This has been educational, funny and thoughtful blog to follow. Hope it will be so next year too. Thanks abagond for everything! sam
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My pleasure! Happy New Year!
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Mira:
You are right about the Neanderthals – no one knows for sure why they died out. I reworded my last point accordingly. Thanks.
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“No jasonburns, because so-called oppressed groups use achievement gaps as an example of the oppressive culture’s institutional racism and bigotry.”
Well, if you look at the academic achievement gap from a historical perspective there is no question that institutional racism and bigotry were huge factors, considering that blacks simply were not allowed to go to school at all (unless they built the school themselves) before brown v. board.
In the modern era the achievement gap has fluctuated wildly even coming close to closing completely in the 1990’s before widening again. How could that be if achievement is hardwired into the genes? There wouldn’t be much fluctuation if that were the case.
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@Abagond:…”Most whites do not need HBD to do that – they just go on believing in racism while remaining blind to it. HBDers seem to be too race conscious for that to work. So they need science to excuse their racism. They are the thinking man’s skinhead…”
wow! Excellent.
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I have to go shopping but I will return!
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Once again we see a symmetrical myopia shared by racists and anti-racists.
The so-called “achievement gap” can neither be definitively proven at present by either Chuck-proposed HBD or jas0nburns-proposed institutional racism.
I would suggest that both beliefs are toxic, as they tend to poison one’s attitude towards the future.
A black person considering these options is offered the lose-lose choice of either a genetic limitation to their potential success, or a societal one.
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How do I put this? It’s core principal to me but I never try to articulate it.
One of the failures of our society, and education system, seems to be that few people learn how to suspend judgment when being introduced or meeting an individual – any individual – for the first time.
And actually, I don’t believe in suspending judgment, rather my process is to give everyone a wide benefit of the doubt about who and what they are, until they actually start to demonstrate in irrefutable ways who and what they really are.
This isn’t a feel-good exercise to avoid being prejudiced or racist. This is a survival technique as far as I’m concerned – it’s a function of a certain kind of intelligence that serves humans well.
The habit requires reserving or disregarding presumptions about appearance or hearsay “testimony” about such people.
Whatever someone says about “groups” is not interesting or really helpful to me.
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@ Randy
Once again you’re conflating the issue. You need to stop injecting this course of action thing into the debate because it’s misguided.
We aren’t talking about options to consider here. Do you think POC wander around all day trying to decide which excuse to use?
The recognition of institutional racism isn’t about blaming the achievement gap on white people. The achievement gap is probably the result of a variety of factors all coming together and reinforcing one another.
Racism is one of those factors. HBD? not so much. I think the burden of proof is on those who want to blame the victim.
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Notice as well, that HBD preachers cherry pick the subjects that they will discuss on their websites. (HBD is a pseudoscience that is mainly advanced by blog posts. There are no university courses on H.B.D., it has been completely rejected by the field of geneticists)
For instance the article I’ve sited from COSMOS magazine simply never gets brought up on HBD blogs. Consider this information from the article:
Damaging mutations
“The other investigation shows that Americans of European descent have more potentially damaging mutations in their DNA than African-Americans, a finding that settles a long-standing debate.
It is now clear, the researchers say, that all persons of European descent, and not just isolated geographic groups, experienced a “genetic bottleneck” – probably between 30,000 and 100,000 years ago – as a small, founding population moved into present-day Europe.
As a result, the gene pool in Europe was restricted, and possibly harmful mutations in DNA were handed down over the generations instead of being flushed out of the genome through the evolutionary process of natural selection…”
“…The proportion of a subset of “probably damaging” variations in DNA base pairs, called single-nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs), was 12.1 per cent for African-Americans and 15.9 per cent for Americans of European descent.”
Now, if anything, this information would suggest that European genetic makeup is, in some ways, inferior to the more diverse and robust African genetics. The European “genetic bottleneck” is a widely accepted, and scientifically verified theory… but HBDers never blog about the possibility that Europeans are genetically inferior. That sort of theorizing is reserved only for Blacks, Latinos, Southeast Asians, and Aboriginal peoples, based on the HBD evolutionary fairy tail.
If HBD was as dispassionate and objective as they claim, then why are none of the studies that seem to indicate European genetic inferiority ever seriously considered, if they are just following the facts?
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“Snow Makes You Smarter: Whites and north-east Asians have the most intelligence because they have lived for so long in the coldest (and therefore most challenging) part of the world. ”
Yet the planets earliest advanced civilizations came from hot regions of the world.
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“Snow Makes You Smarter: Whites and north-east Asians have the most intelligence because they have lived for so long in the coldest (and therefore most challenging) part of the world. ”
Yet the planets earliest advanced civilizations came from hot regions of the world.”
That would probably be because the regions farther away from the Mediterranean were covered in Ice thousands of years ago and humans would have been still expanding out of Africa.
The middle east had the longest stretch of time with a stable climate. When you see some of the same discoveries and milestones attributed to middle eastern cultures occuring independantly in more isolated (south america) or colder regions (northeast Asia and Europe) it puts that “snow makes you smarter” notion back into perspective.
Remember and North Asia had long periods of glacier coverage so they had to be settled in 2 separate waves, giving other areas in the world a “head start” yet these two areas are the most advanced.
It looks like IQ and societal stressures account for this IQ gap. It’s not just one or the other.
All in all though, it’s funny to see the institutional racism and white privilege folks freak out when confronted with HBD. Why? Because their belief in White privilege is even more faith-based pseudo-science then HBD, which could one day be proven or disproven.
Those that believe in White privilege and institutional racism have nothing but their faith.
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@snowgirl: You gotta be kiddin?? 😀
One good point to start is to study some history. That is really good. You learn about the acinet civilizations. And most of all you learn when they were. Also then you learn when the last ice age was around. And then you can see how funny it is to explain that white north did not have a great civilization before the “other people” had because of the ice. Besides, whats that got to do with it? Isn’t it the snow and the ice which makes us whites so friggin smart?
Also, if you study really hard and lots of stuff, like biology and stuff, you know, you learn stuff like race, you know. And then you would know, that there is only one human race, which is kind of embarassing from the HBD point of view because it sort of negates the whole thing, you know, there are no other human races and stuff like that.
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Flo-Jo looks like she’s mixed, so how do we know what side of the gene pool her running ability comes from?
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@Sam
Stay away from the sarcasm. You aren’t nearly smart enough to handle it.
As for “race” it exists to one extent or another. Tell a researcher in Seoul or China that “race” means nothing when they are figuring out the effect on a particular drug in asians as compared to the White and Black Americans it was tested and approved on.
Or tell that forensic specialist that race is a social construct when they can quite easily note the difference in pelvis and skull shape.
Also, when you talk about scientists and race, you better be clear you’re speaking on garbage SOCIAL scientists. That’s the group that has so strongly pushed the notion that race is a social construct. If race doesn’t exist, how can we possibly all be one race hun?
There are several subspecies where the only difference is slight coloration or bill shape. They can produce viable offspring with one another, yet the physical differences are well…obvious.
Enough with your faith-based pseudoscience.
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@snowgirl: I was not sarcastic, I was laughing at your ignorance on this one. 😀
I am talking about biologists and such, not social scientists. Basically I am talking about scientist, not some coward racists who try to make up funny “scientific” stories to veil their ideas of racial supremacy. 😀
“Or tell that forensic specialist that race is a social construct when they can quite easily note the difference in pelvis and skull shape.” 😀 This gotta be one of the funniest things ever in this blog! Show me a forensic specialist who can tell a racial difference on the bones of one year old and I’ll show you a liar. 😀 Yeah, I know. Funny, isn’t it?? 😀
“There are several subspecies where the only difference is slight coloration or bill shape. They can produce viable offspring with one another, yet the physical differences are well…obvious.”
Well, you do know that different races can not produce offsprings, do you? And even if they can that offspring can not. That is why you can not mix races, like you can not make a cat-dog or horse-cow. That is also why you can not mix chimpanchees and humans, even though we are the closest races biologically on this planet.
Now, you must know that no matter what color a humanbeing is, he/she can produce offsprings with any other humanbeing. And the offsprings can do so as well, as his/hers and so and so on. Now, if there are several different races of humans, how in the hell they can produce offsprings?? 😀
See, it is about biology, not social science. 😀 It is about science, not mumbo jumbo HBD or any other like that, scientology comes to mind. What I can not understand is this: why can’t you be just a racist?
Why do you need these pseudoscintifical explanations? What is wrong with racism? You do promote it, so why be a shame of it? Why you just can not say; “N****s are stupid.”? Why do you feel the need to have “scientifical crutches”? That is mystery to me.
Being a 100% white northener myself I have always been wondering about you guys. What is so problematic in your identity that you feel the need for this sort of comedy at all? Why not just be who you are? Is there a nagging uncertainty that somewhere along the line there might be a darker than night n**** in your family tree? That I would like to know. 😀
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@ Snowgirl
You’re applying circular reasoning. You assume “race” in humans as a biological fact without delivering a precise, uncontested biological definition. The problem is that there isn’t any. There are in fact plenty of sociological (and a couple of anthropological) definitions for “race”, most of which are several centuries old and all of which became more or less common knowledge in many parts of the world. However, “common knowledge” means “according to culturally constructed notions”. The attempts at a purely scientific classification of humans into larger subgroups are/were all motivated by sociological and ideological concepts. Genetics/nature don’t give any clear answer to the concept.
The forensic craniology example has several problems, especially in a global context. First of all, for this method to even have the slightest usefulness at all, you’d have to assume several neatly separated populations where each population is very homogeneous in itself. But even then, it is very likely that a forensic expert in the UK will run into problems trying to identify a 180cm tall Pakistani from a skull alone. Or to tell him apart from a 178cm tall Somalian or a 182cm tall Scotsman.
In addition, because of subjective components, any attempts at facial reconstruction from a skull will not hold water in court. Apart from that, craniometry is widely considered pseudoscience in the scientific community.
If you assume “race” as a biological subspecies you would have to assume a taxonomic hierarchy within the human species. Even Darwin already extrapolated that such hierarchy is incompatible with evolution theory. The only living subspecies of the species Homo sapiens is Homo sapiens sapiens. That is current scientific knowledge. And it is very likely to remain the only one, unless Sasquatch or the Yeti decide to walk into a science lab for a DNA test one day.
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@Sam. That was an excellent analysis of breaking down race as opposed to species along biological lines. No doubt wasted on Snowgirl.
@Femi. Your obvious more factually, informed and knowledge based reasoning in this area of social and /or biology as determinants of race is lost on Snowgirl. However it serves as a benchmark for other more worthy pseudo scientific HBD posters!!!
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Cheers Kwamla!
I also co-sign Sam’s comments about the closet racists.
It’s like – hey! you can come out of the closet. We’ve spotted you.
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@femi: 😀
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For those who believe that the concept of “race” has no biological basis, please explain the existence of the drug “BiDil”.
http://www.nitromed.com/pnt/about_bidil.php
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Randy, do you REALLy not understand how that is irrelevant to race? Because I will be embarrassed to presume upon your ignorance.
Please tell me that you know that this isn’t an indication of race.
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@ Randy
lol
Ask the pharma industry. The product was most likely made very cost-effectively, hence making sure to maximise profit for the company. The active ingredients will work exactly the same way on every human with the disorder the product is allegedly addressing.
Still no biological definition of “race”….
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That is why you can not mix races, like you can not make a cat-dog or horse-cow.
I beg to differ!
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQJ4BjHxMATYDLiNHxSjKrHgq6Modd9QhjZKUzkWEyVDiZSMeCp
As for horse-cow:
Well he tried! 9 months later, or whatever the gestation period would be:
Why do you feel the need to have “scientifical crutches”?
It beats being a drunkard or one of those low IQ trailor park inhabitants!
Is there a nagging uncertainty that somewhere along the line there might be a darker than night n**** in your family tree? That I would like to know.
You might be on to something sam!
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Stay away from the sarcasm. You aren’t nearly smart enough to handle it.
sam is a genius! He’s white and from Finland. If anything, he is the smartest person here based on HBD, he has the reindeer to prove it and the reindeer are smarter than he is. The combination of cold weather, huge heads, and evolution has caused this. Why the reindeer sam owns, are so smart, that sam cant even understand them when they try to converse with him. In fact they become frustrated and angry. Many a time sam has had to evade their hooves and antlers when they get teed off with him! Here’s a picture of sam’s beloved reindeer Jaakko, laughing as he envisions kicking sam in the head for not understanding him:
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African Americans require hospitalization for heart failure more frequently and at a younger age than do whites.7
@ Randy
Do you see how Femi sees the obvious truth and you don’t? That is because you’ve allowed your head to be filled with HBD nonsense.
So, in fairness, it’s not just you, it’s most of these HBD sites that bring up these kinds of erroneous arguments all of the time. Then, the collection of online dimwits all come together to pat themselves on the back, completely unaware that what they are so ferociously espousing doesn’t make any sense.
The A-HeFT researchers that conducted the testing for BiDil didn’t conclude that all Black heart failure victims will benefit from BiDil, or that it’s not effective in other ethnic population groups. It was simply first trial tested on Blacks, due to the statistically higher incidence of debilitating heart failure among African-American patients. (not said to be genetic)
Now, that’s not to say that this medication, or any future medications, may not be effective in treating ailments that have a higher occurrence in African-Amercans, but it’s doubtful that such remedies will work EXCLUSIVELY on Black patients to the exclusion of all others.
Therefore it’s not a good proof of race issue to raise.
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King and Femi,
Why are people are so resistant to the idea that “race” may exist? So what if it does?
It says nothing about the *quality* of groups of people to simply describe differences between populations of humans who share a common geography over a period of time.
Here are but a few examples of these differences:
“..circulating ADMA levels are significantly higher in healthy black African males than in white European males. This may contribute to … higher incidence of cardiovascular disease seen in black Africans.”
http://hyper.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/49/4/873
“Black-white differences in response to antihypertensive medication.”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=7674354&dopt=abstractplus
“Scientists have found the reason why blacks dominate on the running track and whites in the swimming pool: it’s in their belly-buttons, a study published Monday shows”
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hRv5sUxxWidc9Go7BQLl8iSIwcJw
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Note that there are some similarities in thought between “HBD” and “anti-racism.” According to both:
1. Whites are incredibly powerful, cohesive, and in possession of unassailable social dominance.
2. Non-whites (and especially blacks) are weak and generally incapable of improving their position in society by themselves. Amelioration of social conditions for minorities results largely from shifts in the attitudes of whites.
Where the the two philosophies diverge is in the cause of these conditions; HBD posits biology and evolution while anti-racism argues that historical conditions and sociological forces are to blame. Unfortunately, neither position suggests that non-whites can move up the social ladder through an exercise of agency and initiative. Both risk self-fulfilling prophecies in this regard.
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“King and Femi,
Why are people are so resistant to the idea that “race” may exist? So what if it does?”
Because the science doesn’t support it, and we prefer science to emotional and religious responses to the data.
As for the differences between groups, yes we acknowledge that human beings adapt to their geography to some extent – but not enough to become different *kinds* of human beings.
Now, if you choose to call the differences in groups “races” it stretches the original meaning of the word. But lets accept that for a moment. I you want races so badly, then we shall give them to you. But you’re going to need more races (based on genetic variance) than they culled off in the past centuries. And the races won’t be arbitrarily color-coordinated. There will be several European races, many Asian races, and a large number of African races. Are you ready to accept “race” like that?
Or are you really trying to get to here?
White Race
Asian Race
East Indian Race
Arab Race
Hispanic Race
Native American Race
Black Race
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It says nothing about the *quality* of groups of people to simply describe differences between populations of humans who share a common geography over a period of time.
Another reason is this:
What is the “common geography” of the African continent?
What is the “common geography” of the European sub-continent?
What is the “common geography” of the Asian continent?
What is the “common geography” of Australia?
After a while, you actually have to try and answer some of these glaring inconsistencies in your HBD theory.
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Randy,
Why are people are so resistant to the idea that “race” may exist? So what if it does?
Nobody says race doesn’t exist; it does. However, it’s not a biological fact. It’s a cultural construct.
(But being a cultural construct doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist or that it isn’t real. It’s just not based on biology).
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King:Now, if you choose to call the differences in groups “races” it stretches the original meaning of the word.
I’ve got no attachment to the term “race”, rather I use it because it’s part of the established vernacular and is used in political policy. In other words, the term is imposed on us by society.
King:After a while, you actually have to try and answer some of these glaring inconsistencies in your HBD theory.
I have no HBD theory or agenda at all. However I am bothered that political correctness stifles legitimate scientific inquiry. A truly “progressive” society should not allow ideologues and their orthodoxies to interfere with science.
Sure, from time to time you’ll have folks cherry-picking data to bolster some agenda, but those types are generally self-marginalizing.
I posted an example above where a real-world benefit of such inquiry can be seen. Knowing that African men have reduced bio-availability of epithelial nitric oxide compared with European men will likely lead to ethnically-specific treatments for heart disease which will save lives.
King:There will be several European races, many Asian races, and a large number of African races. Are you ready to accept “race” like that?
I don’t have a problem with that.
FG: I’ve made the same observation, though yours is much more eloquent.
A relevant question is “why” the anti-racists should wish to so encumber the minorities which they nominally strive to protect. The only reasons I can think of is that populism is historically an easy sell to those who feel disenfranchised, and there’s a lot of money and power to be acquired in the “Victim Industrial Complex”.
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@Mira-I guess pigmentation, hair texture, dental, pelvic, cranofacial etc. etc. differences are social construct too.
You guys are worse than the HBD folks in your denial of the truth.
Something you and some of the hokey white “anti-racists” should consider. Did you notice that you are finding common cause with a lot of seriously racist black folk? Or just greedy black grievance hustlers who use faith-based concepts like “white privilege” to get whatever they can from Whites or other intimidated minorities?
Go back to Orwell and notice that you’re in league with a lot of pigs.
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I guess pigmentation, hair texture, dental, pelvic, cranofacial etc. etc. differences are social construct too.
If you can prove me that ALL members of a certain race, and NO members of another race have distinctive pigmentation, hair texture, pelvic measures, etc… Then I’d be willing to believe you. But since it’s not the case (and many, many people tried to prove it- and failed – over and over again), I think it’s safe to say race as a biological fact doesn’t exist.
And it’s not because we are all “basically the same”. Quite the contrary, it’s because humans are genetically very diverse. So diverse that there would be many “biological races”, if you really want to define them. And when I say many, I mean thousands of them, certainly not 5-6 (or whatever) as we have today.
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I agree with Mira: no matter what feature you pick, not all members of any geographic or social race will have it while no one from any other race does.
For example, not all blacks in America have flat noses, kinky hair and brown skin. Far from it. There are blacks with white skin, with flowing hair, with aquiline noses.
There are DNA testing companies that will tell you what % of your genes are European, Asian, sub-Saharan African, etc. But even that does not work: there are “whites” with more sub-Saharan African blood than some “blacks”.
There are also people who can pass for either black or white depending on the circumstances. Which race do they “really” belong to?
Or: when Angela Davis was growing up in Jim Crow Alabama, the shoe store would not let her walk through the front door because she was black. Yet if she spoke with a foreign accent, not only would they let her through the front door, they were nice to her too! Yet her physical race had not changed one bit.
Race, at least in America, is not as simple as a set of hard-and-fast physical or genetic characteristics.
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I would repeat in essence what Mira said, the concept of “race” obviously exists but first and foremost in the heads of many people, in social science and on all sorts of documents.
There is no resistance to accept “race” as a biological concept. Where is that assumption coming from? The point is, there is no scientific proof for it. Full stop.
However, the fact that is truly remarkable in all of this is how keen certain people are on proving the biological validity. Or to see it proven.
All that effort would be much better invested in research for genetically based disorders.
By the way, before administering drugs, each patient’s case has to be individually diagnosed and assessed for potential intolerance, regardless. I hope people realise how irresponsible it would be to prescribe drugs solely based on “race”. And it would be plain insane to do that based on the looks of a patient.
Btw, my sister is pharmacist. She cringes every time she hears about those “race-targeted” drugs.
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“I’ve got no attachment to the term “race”, rather I use it because it’s part of the established vernacular and is used in political policy. In other words, the term is imposed on us by society.”
Exactly, Randy. But the term represents a concept, and that is what is imposed upon us by society — the concept that the visible differences or samenesses that we observe are equivalent to “race.”
“I have no HBD theory or agenda at all. However I am bothered that political correctness stifles legitimate scientific inquiry. A truly “progressive” society should not allow ideologues and their orthodoxies to interfere with science.”
Stop being naïve, of course you have and agenda. There is no such thing as “pure science.” The questions we ask and answer by way of science, always serve or defend our presumptions to one degree or another. We are all grinding the axe of our bias.
“I posted an example above where a real-world benefit of such inquiry can be seen. Knowing that African men have reduced bio-availability of epithelial nitric oxide compared with European men will likely lead to ethnically-specific treatments for heart disease which will save lives.”
I agree, that some lives will be saved. But it is still not an ethno-specific condition. Besides, the use of race comparative statistics can be misleading. Just because African-Americans have a certain condition at a higher rate than Whites doesn’t mean that even the majority of African Americans have the condition. If only 3 African-American men have a very rare condition that only 1 White guy has been diagnosed with, then Blacks have the condition at an ALARMING 200% HIGHER RATE than Whites!!!!! Even though we’re only talking about 4 guys in total, (Black and White) and 99.9% of Blacks don’t have it at all.
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@herneith: not to mention the polar bears we have to avoid on our way to work each morning. Now a days there are very few of them left since we have killed them for nice fur hats, but few decades ago they were plenty. We also had plenty of wolves around too. That is why we had so many great long distance runners, who were also very smart. 😀
@snowgirl: “Go back to Orwell and notice that you’re in league with a lot of pigs.” Well, you do know that Orwell wrote that with his experiences in Spanish civil war in mind and also USSR in mind? And I guess, you do know that both of those were run and done by WHITE EUROPEANS? You know, Joe Stalin etc.? 😀
“Did you notice that you are finding common cause with a lot of seriously racist black folk?”. Say what? Where did I do that? Racism is racism is racism. I think you missed my comment on teenage mutant ninja turtles above? 😀
I just don’t like hypocracy, pretenders, fakes, or any of that nature. That is why I’m callin you guys out: I urge you to show your real colors. I think it is pityfull and somehow embarassing that you try to mask your own racism into something which you then call a science, when it is clearly not. What the heck, just be a racist. I think being who you are is liberating.
Wait! Now there is the real question with this whole HBD and its kind. Why they can not be openly racist?
Why they have to pretend they are just studying Human Bio Diversity when they are trying to construct the biology of race?
Could it be that somehow they know that racism is little bit stupid, embarassing or not so popular? Hmm…
As for me being apologist or something like that, the finns were exploited, opressed and colonized by the swedes and russians for 800 years so I think I have no need to make excuses for myself or feel bad about something.
Well, I once stole candy from a store and did not get busted. That still bugs me and that happened more than forty years ago. 😀
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@king: not to mention that living standards, diet and such have a huge influence on heart diseases.
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A truly progressive society should first of all not allow ideologues and their orthodoxies to hijack science for promoting their ideologies.
HBD and Bell Curve proponents always veer off into ideological territory when their hypotheses are challenged on a scientific level. Why don’t they stick to the issue at hand and face the questions and doubts about their scientific methodologies? If they claim to have no ideological motivations why do they permanently assume them in their scientific critics?
When people make scientific claims it is their sole responsibility to deliver all of the evidence and to take all elements into account which contradict their claims. Science is about knowing or not knowing or work in progress. It is not about believing.
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@snowgirl and randy
Where do gingers fit into all of this then? Surely with their odd pigmentation and hair color they should be considered a separate race. And shouldn’t we separate light skinned blond whites and dark haired olive skinned whites into separate “races” too? I mean, you can plainly SEE how different they are duh! I’m with you guys now, what a great way to be spending time, chopping people up into little racial categories is a great way to understand the world and each other!
Sike.
I think race is somewhat relevant when it comes to medicine in the same way family medical history is relevant. Beyond that, there is simply no reason for it to be socially relevant. It’s social relevance needs to be undone not reinforced imo. We’ve already way overblown the social significance of race. Even if HBD found some shiny new evidence it wouldn’t be enough to justify the racism that exists today.
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jas0nburns,
But aren’t dark whites sometimes seen, even today, as “not really white”?
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@ mira
I don’t know, maybe by some people, sometimes. I was imagining a Kardashian type coloring which is generally considered white.
What i’m trying to say is that some differences are biological realities, like hair color, eye color, skin color. But what makes those differences socially relevant? What if you could prove other differences existed? What would make those differences relevant? Where do you draw the line? and why? Why bother?
Those are questions I wish HBDr’s would ask themselves.
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One really interesting question is this: how the hell HDBers explain the racism between african tribes and nations? 😀 That is something I would like to hear!! 😀
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@ jas0nburns
“Where do gingers fit into all of this then? Surely with their odd pigmentation and hair color they should be considered a separate race. And shouldn’t we separate light skinned blond whites and dark haired olive skinned whites into separate “races” too?”
That’s exactly what I was trying to explain to Randy.
“If you want races so badly, then we shall give them to you. But you’re going to need more races (based on genetic variance) than they culled off in the past centuries. And the races won’t be arbitrarily color-coordinated. There will be several European races, many Asian races, and a large number of African races.”
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What I find particularly telling is the fact that these proponents of HBD, and other nonsense, scream; “POLITICAL CORRECTNESS!”, whenever anyone challenges them. Well, I don’t believe in political correctness(whatever that is), and call it like I see it. You all, or is it Y’all, are nothing but dyed in the wool racists hiding behind pseudo-science and mumbo jumbo. Your screams of Political correctness is just so much hot air.
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@ Hernieth
I’m with you, Hernieth. I think they should call themselves RACIAL MAVERICKS.
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To me it’s like they are fiercely devoted to a triviality.
If anti-racism is about reducing the social impact of a biological triviality than HBD is about stressing the importance of and increasing the impact of a biological triviality.
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@ sam
Good question indeed.
Another one along those lines would be the overproportional underachievement and problems of North Africans in France, of Turks in Germany, and of Asians from the Indian subcontinent in the UK (including many light-skinned, straight-haired, aquiline-nosed).
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@femi: 😀 yes, and on the same vein, how HBDers explain the racism between the asians which is quite open even today; koreans vs. japanese, chinese vs. everybody else, japanese vs. everybody else etcetcetc.??
And I would like to know how come these most high IQ’s from far east have not taken their dominant position in finnish society? According the HBDers these are the most superior race intellectually and we do have our chinese, koreans and vietnamese here, so why they are not rulings us yet??
I think some clarification is in order here! 😀
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I’ve been on hiatus for the holidays, so I now just saw this thread. Thanks for the link, Abagond, even if you do mean to ridicule some of my views. I’ll return the favor in kind one day. 😉
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I was watching a video of Blake Griffin dunking and it made me wonder how HBDr’s are counting mixed race people in their “research”? Are they using the one drop rule? If so that isn’t very scientific.
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@ Jasonburns,
Almost all tests in America that have to do with race use self identified race to categorize the participants. Yes, that’s not a very perfect standard, but genetic tests have shown that almost all(98%) of people correctly self identify. Only a small minority identify wrong. This may be Blacks trying to pass or it may even be some mixed persons who consider themselves Black yet are mostly White.
The fact is that a large percentage of Blacks in America are mixed. On average, Blacks have about 20 percent European genetic contribution.
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Here’s a study posted today on yahoo where diet is shown to affect IQ.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110208/lf_afp/healthfoodlifestylechildren
It seems like there are about a million different factors that could contribute to IQ differences between races. So it’s highly suspicious that HBD proponents would jump right to genetics as THE explanation.
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To Jas0nburns:
Here’s a study posted today on yahoo where diet is shown to affect IQ. …. So it’s highly suspicious that HBD proponents would jump right to genetics as THE explanation.
Apparently they do cover it…do a search for Steve Sailer and nutrition and you’ll find this:
http://isteve.blogspot.com/2006/12/nyt-is-catching-up-to-vdarecom-on-how.html
and
http://isteve.blogspot.com/2009/04/award-winning-economist-im-ignorant.html
“Richard Lynn himself has repeatedly pointed to poor nutrition as one cause of low average IQs in some poor countries. We know of two micronutrients — iodine and iron — that can lower your IQ when not in sufficient supply in your diet. That’s why in America salt is fortified with iodine and flour with iron. Extending these fortification programs to the Third World as a way to raise average IQ would probably give more bang for the buck than anything else.”
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Sagat return back to hell were you came from
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xxxphantomxxx: “Sagat return back to hell were you came from”
As he hasn’t been around these parts for a while, I wouldn’t be surprised if, at this very moment, he’s having tea & scones, and reminiscing the good old days with Satan.
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@Parfum Bleu well yes I know my words were very strange forward but his kind get ion my nerves, if they would just simply read a history book and not the trash their hbder thugs write they would find all of the answers their.
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“The Neanderthals of cold Europe were no match for the humans who came from hot Africa.”
Some scholars do guess that the Neanderthalers and moderns, would have disagreed with that, and that they were actually such a good match for eachother that the Neanderthaler with its greater brain capacity and violently living women, as in “Staying at home, while you are gonna hunt some mammoths? NO WAY!”, was miscegenated out of existence…
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Inter-ethnic hybrid vigor, much needed with the un-diverse human , makes whites genetically more intelligent than Europeans. Cognition gets more and more important as robots and computers do the mundane stuff. This could make it hard for Europe to recover from the debt crises.
Why aren’t Blacks, with their repository of genetic diversity, out-competing whites? Are small brains favored in hot climates since they are heat sources? High temperature does not prevent Indian AND Black Immigrants from out-performing European and Asian immigrants. It’s mostly poverty. Poor people ON AVERAGE aren’t given enough “environmental enrichment”. Also, their brain gets specialized for “street smarts”. Thus they seem “stupid” because they got too little and the wrong type of brain workout. Correcting for income eliminates most of this, but cultural differences (including oppressive Christianity) and residual racism still leave a gap.
It’s a shame. The increase in diversity and any vigor effects are probably mild, so plenty of blacks would be average normal Americans. However, a slight shift and variance increase have a drastic effect on the tails of the bell curve. There would be far more black than white geniuses if the race was fair. Brilliance that is good for both colors.
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This HBD, upon consideration appears to be crap. But obviously there are differences between races, which are infinitely fascinating. What are the causes? Humidity in the native land, what we ate? We need an unbiased, non-politically/racial supremacy motivated version of this science. Not to devise some “pecking order”, but to understand what makes us tick, and just maybe, why.
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[…] here. Here, blogger bigWOWO talks about it. Blogger abagond talks about it here and here. Ken Weiss discusses it here. Magnus Hansen talks about HBD in the first of a four-part series […]
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I think it helps more to have a mother who is a mathematician, then it does to have genes from a particular continent.
The Story Of Esther Okade, The British Math Prodigy Who Attends College At 10
“Now, 10-year-old Esther Okade is enrolled in a university math course and getting straight A’s as one of the youngest undergraduate students in the country.”
http://www.bustle.com/articles/68690-the-story-of-esther-okade-the-british-math-prodigy-who-attends-college-at-10-will-inspire
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@ jefe
“The Story Of Esther Okade, The British Math Prodigy Who Attends College At 10”
I commented recently on this at the thread entitled “What to unlearn to learn African history” in an attempt to react to former messages by Erik Sieven.
See:
and
Basically I challenged the HBD folks to try to fit this case in their picture of Black Africans (she is the daughter of African immigrants to UK) as having an average IQ of 70.
I’ll not repeat my arguments here, but I think that the typical statistical model based on the Gaussian with a middle point at 70 and a standard deviation of around 10, hardly can fit a case like this.
There is much more to say about this phenomenon of “child prodigies”:
* how frequent are there in the general population?
* how oft a “child prodigy” is spotted versus the total cases of potential “child prodigies” (many surely pass unnoticed)?
* etc
Another somewhat similar case appears a few years ago again in UK:
http://www.africanamerica.org/topic/britains-brainiest-family-is-black-and-have-9-year-old-high-school-bound-twins
And last year we have a “not exactly a child prodigy” case of:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/03/31/ivy-league-admissions-college-university/7119531/
You, yourself, Jefe, wrote in a comment in another thread (something like autobiographic notes) that you were able to master math stuff more advanced than the “normal” at a younger age. So, there are certainly many more bright children and teenagers than some people realize.
I would predict that as more Blacks (Africans or Americans) attain a college degree and are able to remain attached professionally to the fields they followed at college so this phenomenon of bright or even prodigy kids will appear more frequently at their children’s generation. Even more frequently if those cases reach the larger public and gain its attention.
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