Hollywood whitewashing (1921- ), also called racebending, is where White actors play people of colour. It has been going on since at least “The Sheik” (1921). You would think it would have died out in the 1960s, with the civil rights movement and the rise of Sidney Poitier, but it is still going strong in 2015.
Some examples, with before and after pictures:
Gods of Egypt (2016) – Gerard Butler, a Scottish actor of Irish descent, plays Set, an Egyptian god.
Stonewall (2015) – Jeremy Irvine, an English actor, plays a “straight-acting” White American gay man who starts the Stonewall riots. Most eyewitnesses say it was started by Marsha P. Johnson, a Black American trans woman.
Exodus: Gods and Kings (2014) – Sigourney Weaver, a White American actress of English, Scottish and Scotch Irish descent, plays Tuya, the wife of an Egyptian pharaoh, Sethi I.
The Hunger Games (2012) – Jennifer Lawrence, a White American actress, plays Katniss Everdeen, who in the book had olive skin, grey eyes and straight black hair. The before picture shows one artist’s interpretation of the book’s description. I did not read the book, but from fan art, I never thought of her as completely White.
Argo (2012) – Ben Affleck, a White American actor of Scottish, Irish, German and Swiss descent, plays Tony Mendez, of Mexican, Italian, French and Irish descent.
The Last Airbender (2010) – Nicola Peltz, a White American actress of Austrian Jewish, Russian Jewish, German, Welsh and English descent, plays Katara.
21 (2008) – Jim Sturgess, an English actor, plays a character who in real life was Jeffrey Ma, an Asian American.
A Mighty Heart (2007) – Angelina Jolie, a White American actress of German, Slovak, French-Canadian, Dutch,and Huron (Native Canadian) descent, plays Marianne Pearl, of Dutch and Afro-Chinese-Cuban descent. Jolie is not one bit Black.
World Trade Center (2006) – William Mapother, a White American actor of German, English and Irish descent, plays Sgt Jason Thomas, a Black American.
The Passion of the Christ (2004) – Jim Caviezel, a White American actor of Swiss, Slovak and Irish descent, plays Jesus, a Palestinian Jew. The before picture shows what someone of Jesus’s time and place looked like.
Alexander (2004) – Colin Farrell, an Irish actor, plays Alexander the Great, a Macedonian Greek. Not a case of whitewashing, strictly speaking, but making him blonde and Irish is in that same spirit.
Kung Fu (1972-1975) – David Carradine, a White American actor of mainly Irish descent, plays a Eurasian character Bruce Lee meant for himself. Carradine is not one bit Asian.
Cleopatra (1963) – Elizabeth Taylor, an English American actress, plays Cleopatra, an Egyptian queen, who was probably part Greek and part Egyptian. The before picture is a forensic reconstruction of a woman who was likely Arsinoe, her half-sister.
The Conqueror (1956) – John Wayne, a White American actor of Scottish, Scotch Irish, Irish and English descent, plays Genghis Khan, a Mongolian.
Notice that even Whites from the Mediterranean are getting screwed, even though they would make much more believable Alexanders, Cleopatras and Jesuses.
Los Angeles:
- 49% Latino
- 29% White
- 11% Asian
- 10% Black
- 1% Other
Hollywood executives who greenlight films:
- 94% White
– Abagond, 2015.
See also:
559
^^^Do you not have a blog? Then go write about these “important” issues there.
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@Kiwi
That is a big list. I knew about 21, but was not aware of many others on that list.
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@Lord of Mirkwood
So you view strawman arguments as a legitimate one? I can’t backtrack on something I never said. I never claimed to be anti-racist. I did however claim to be anti-your bs.
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I’m tired of the forkery. BOYCOTT!!!! I’m glad POC are waking up.
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Reminds me of the film “Dolphin Tale,” when to white engineers were merged into a black fictional character played by Morgan Freeman.
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Or when Idris Elba played Thor.
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@David Korvini
Idris Elba never played Thor. He played Norse.
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@David Korvini
On top of that you are missing the point. Most of the movies listed above are not Fictional. For example, in the movie 21 it was based on a true story about Asian-American students. Yet that did not stop it from being white-washed and played by white American students.
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Correction Heimdall a norse God
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
Ah, I see you’re trolling. Abagond should delete both of your comments on general principle alone.
As for Hollywood’s pathological love of casting only the biggest, whitest names in acting, that’s par for the course. None of those execs are even concerned about how those movies look, just as long as they get to make big profits from them.
If we want our stories told the way we want them to be told, we’ll have to do what we’ve always done (and should start doing once more): create our own and distribute them ourselves.
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@Lord of Mirkwood
You make every issue about the Irish or the Rich to dismiss real issues. Particularly POC issues. Whitewashing movies is an issue because it removes the idea that POC are involved in anything or did anything. A lot of white people take movies to be an accurate view of life.
Secondly you did not say anything about Anti-black racism. If you did decide to address it then you would need to acknowledge that practicing racist are not Rich, Republican, or the police.
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@Abagond
Jesus was Jewish, not Palestinian. Please correct the error!
Here are pictures
Jews
Ed Miliband
(https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CAcQjRxqFQoTCM6y66rvjskCFYFeJgodRisFiw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailymail.co.uk%2Fnews%2Farticle-2325395%2FEd-Miliband-surges-power-list-influential-Jewish-people-despite-struggling-convince-voters-leadership-credentials.html&bvm=bv.107467506,d.eWE&psig=AFQjCNF7lSn7eH5I-whClY_FUilIgCbqHw&ust=1447554595924591)
Mila Kunis
(https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CAcQjRxqFQoTCP-h9ffwjskCFUJjJgod3YYCkg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdeadline.com%2Ftag%2Fmila-kunis%2F&bvm=bv.107467506,d.eWE&psig=AFQjCNE7-z6rj7716eCkK8GVcd836GBFkg&ust=1447555050613695)
Stephen Spielberg
(https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=0CAcQjRxqFQoTCJ2cn7XyjskCFULuJgodxgwIxg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fspielbergfanclub.com%2F2011%2F11%2Fsteven-spielberg-makes-top-10-jewish-celebrity-list%2F&bvm=bv.107467506,d.eWE&psig=AFQjCNGqx_QwYIxOqPeS04FDsGFdZ3Qd8g&ust=1447555041555920)
St. Paul
(https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=0CAcQjRxqFQoTCIC-i5XzjskCFULCJgodATQC2A&url=http%3A%2F%2Fshoebat.com%2F2013%2F09%2F03%2Fst-paul-vs-todays-conservative%2F&bvm=bv.107467506,d.eWE&psig=AFQjCNG5BbFwhzDbrsGyGt3xb5scg2TifQ&ust=1447555646798627)
Raul Wallenberg
(http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.raoulwallenberg.net/wp-content/uploads/RWvocie-of-rusia.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.raoulwallenberg.net/news/wallenbergs-family-to-appeal-to-russia-in-hope-to-shed-light-on-diplomats-fate/&h=268&w=460&tbnid=NBrOSQmTaTCb8M:&docid=C021n45WJW8U6M&ei=waFGVvWEGsevmQG6uoyoBQ&tbm=isch&ved=0CDUQMygBMAFqFQoTCLXpxo30jskCFcdXJgodOh0DVQ)
Jonathan Cahn (Messianic rabbi)
(http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.conservativefiringline.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/temporary-blog1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2015/09/warning-to-america-shemitah-2015-with-jonathan-cahn-what-you-need-to-know-video-video-video-2472730.html&h=340&w=618&tbnid=jcTP7SivFZV-EM:&docid=f8Q2s7v9X1ms0M&ei=YqJGVtbYH4bymAG-_ZL4Aw&tbm=isch&ved=0CCAQMygDMANqFQoTCNaRr9r0jskCFQY5Jgodvr4EPw)
Anne Frank
(https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:AnneFrankSchoolPhoto.jpg)
Arabs
Kim Kardashian
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kim_Kardashian_at_the_2009_Tribeca_Film_Festival.jpg)
Gamal Nasser
(http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=imgres&cd=&ved=0CAkQjRwwAGoVChMI2qek__aOyQIVhUQmCh38XAIA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcontent.time.com%2Ftime%2Fcovers%2F0%2C16641%2C19580728%2C00.html&psig=AFQjCNG7fvJyI9VQrbwGxY63xSpmUpqVYw&ust=1447556680948963)
The Shah of Iran
(https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=0CAcQjRxqFQoTCN39x8T3jskCFYxCJgodFF4D5w&url=http%3A%2F%2Fi-cias.com%2Fe.o%2Fpahlavi_d.htm&bvm=bv.107467506,d.eWE&psig=AFQjCNG6Dqp1ci3TqnQQPNqPJ07IjdacSQ&ust=1447556807351252)
Arabs and Jews, although very similar in physical appearance,and very similar in culture, are DIFFERENT as well as the SAME. However, it is important to note that although they both originate in the Middle East, they have different customs and behaviors. Just my own two cents!
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Jesus was NOT Palestinian, Abagond! Get the facts right!
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That wikipedia list is only a small sampling. I can think of dozens of others.
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A huge difference (above). Only in Hollywood.
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@Everett F. Pomare
Abagond said Palestinian Jew. He never just said he was just a Palestinian. The link gives detail on the meaning of the terms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Jews
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https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCUQFjADahUKEwjrzMPyjI_JAhVR6GMKHbEiCVc&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fnews%2Fmorning-mix%2Fwp%2F2015%2F11%2F11%2Fa-white-actor-was-cast-as-mlk-until-the-black-playwright-caught-wind-of-it%2F&usg=AFQjCNEC0wh64YexMFGMLZQBxi4p59LEWw&bvm=bv.107467506,d.cGc
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‘The Mummy’ (1999) portrayed Imhotep – the world’s first multi-genius – as a villain. That’s like portraying Albert Einstein as a serial killer in a horror film. Only in Hollywood. Fifty years from now I wouldn’t be surprised if MLK is portrayed be a white American. Like a magician, Hollywood folks use their magic wands to turn historical people of color into modern-day White people.
Btw, legend has it that the magician’s magic wand was made from the holly tree (hence holly wood). Hollywood love performing tricks.
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@ Jabari Jones
I heard about that! Since it is not Hollywood, it did not make the list, but it did help to push me towards writing this post.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
You’ve never actually stopped and wondered why your arguments keep going over this crowd like a lead balloon, have you? It’s a common trait among trolls and examples of the Dunning-Kruger effect in action.
Next time, remember that many black Americans treat issues like police brutality, GOP nonsense and Hollywood whitewashing with equal seriousness and merit. They don’t need a concern troll to rap their knuckles with a ruler for “being concerned about the wrong things.”
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@ Everett F. Pomare
Kim Kardasian and the Shah of Iran are not Arabs.
The Jews you listed are mostly European or White American Jews, which is the very reason I described Jesus as a Palestinian Jew, meaning one from Palestine.
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You forgot the worst example of them all – Ben Kingsley as Ghandi 🙂
I agree that this stuff is ridiculous, but there is the rare occasion where it’s a matter of availability of star power to fulfill the role. Accomplished actors with the pedigree and name recognition to match a particular demographic can be hard to come by.
Example: the movie currently in theaters based on the book “The Martian”.
The head of NASA is supposed to be a guy named Venkat Kapoor. Indian, Hindu. But in the movie they cast academy award winner Chiwetel Ejiofor to play him, and named him Vincent Kapoor. The boards at IMDB are lit up by new threads accusing the film makers of racism just about every day. I don’t know if they approached any Indian actors but the role in question is very important and an actor of Ejiofor’s caliber was required, not to mention that an unknown actor playing such an important role would have lessened the appeal to audiences.
Amazing book, amazing movie btw!
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Ben Kingsley is Eurasian. His father is of Asian Indian descent.
Do people object to Eurasians playing Asians or whites, or to Blasians playing Asians or Blacks? or maybe something else altogether like Latino or Native American?
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They call it acting. One person acting like another!
Most of this is “old old past” history which most of the world is aware of!
Please encourage Blacks to attend acting schools so they are ready to play the role of Blacks like “12 Years a Slave”, “How to Get Away With Murder”, “Empire”.
They have to be ready to starve while they wait their chance.
Many of the “new” movies include Black Actors (both male and female)!
Have you her of Danzel Washington or Will Smith?
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“You’ve never actually stopped and wondered why your arguments keep going over this crowd like a lead balloon, have you? It’s a common trait among trolls and examples of the Dunning-Kruger effect in action.”
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LOL
Laughter is good medicine!!!!!
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Allen Shaw: Did you even read the Abagond’s post? Most decision makers in hollywood are white. So most of what you see in movies, on TV, and even in books is directed toward a white audience. This is why Egyptian (ie, African) gods and people are white and why most “Black” people in hollywood are actually bi-racial — or not black at all.
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@Abagond, @sharinalr
Jews (whether American or not), are ultimately from the Middle East, and are therefore indigenous and native to the land of Israel. Their cultures are so similar it’s almost hard to tell the difference! They are NOT (and never have been) “Palestinians”, since those people arrived much later.
Benjamin Netanyahu is as Middle Eastern as they come!
(https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=0CAcQjRxqFQoTCKDSvcivj8kCFQwrJgodxKwJlg&url=%2Furl%3Fsa%3Di%26rct%3Dj%26q%3D%26esrc%3Ds%26source%3Dimages%26cd%3D%26cad%3Drja%26uact%3D8%26ved%3D0CAcQjRxqFQoTCKDSvcivj8kCFQwrJgodxKwJlg%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.scanvine.com%252Fauthor%252Forlando-crowcroft%26psig%3DAFQjCNHQAc811qu2L2_XLqRYgmum1BJolQ%26ust%3D1447571810037587&psig=AFQjCNHQAc811qu2L2_XLqRYgmum1BJolQ&ust=14475718100375870)
P.M. Netanyahu, the current leader of the Jewish people, is NOT of European ancestry, and he never has been. Jews aren’t Europeans, and neither are the Arabs.
Jewish dancing
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/PikiWiki_Israel_3011_Jewish_holidays_%D7%97%D7%92_%D7%91%D7%99%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D_%D7%92%D7%9F-%D7%A9%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%90%D7%9C_2009.JPG)
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PikiWiki_Israel_9089_Water_Festival_at_Kibbutz_Ramat_Yohanan.jpg)
(http://blogs.brandeis.edu/cmjs/files/2012/10/FolkDancing.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b3/Debka.jpg)
Those Arabs are dancing the “dabke”, which is very similar to the Jewish Bar Mitzvah dance.
This proves that ultimately, they aren’t European!
Netanyahu speaking Hebrew
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EnwfNl2Ixg)
Arabic
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKXenCuWkEs)
They are similar languages, similar (but different) people.
Genetic proof
(http://scopeblog.stanford.edu/2013/12/20/new-genetic-study-more-evidence-for-modern-ashkenazi-jews-ancient-hebrew-patrimony/)
(http://www.trinicenter.com/more/Jewsarabs.htm)
Lastly, some Chick tracts to back it all up completely
“The Outcast”
(http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/5008/5008_01.asp)
Rahab was an Arab woman working as a prostitute in Jericho, and was rescued from there by Jewish armies, led by Joshua.
“The Promise”
(http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/5004/5004_01.asp)
“Squatters”
(https://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1019/1019_01.asp)
“Love the Jewish People”
(https://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1019/1019_01.asp)
“Somebody Angry?”
(http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1055/1055_01.asp)
This PROVES that Arabs and Jews are NOT of European origin, and that they are the rightful owners the land they call Israel.
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Abagond,
I really, really think one of these is not like the others. Colin Farrell, as miscast as he is in “Alexander”, is not an example of whitewashing.
That movie is full of problems. For example, to follow Farrell’s Irish accent, all people playing Macedonians were made to speak in an Irish accent, while all people playing Greeks were those speaking in English accents. Since Greeks are/were considered to be of higher culture than Macedonians, it does create some unfortunate implications, but not of the whitewashing kind.
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[…] Hollywood whitewashing https://abagond.wordpress.com/2015/11/14/hollywood-whitewashing/ […]
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Not to quibble … it would be roman administrative district of judea for nazareth and bethlehem and isreal (ot) for nazareth and judah (ot) for bethlehem, i think philistia is basically the west bank of today?
Or did you mean ethnically, i’m confused here by palestinian as well
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Always interesting the amount of “confusion” and petty sidebar-ing when it comes to an argument that is presented in a pretty cut and dry manner. Hollywood white washes characters and has (almost) since its inception. Pretty easy concept to follow and to prove….but because of white fragility we have to try to make the white folks feel comfortable about confronting this issue which is presently still happening at a fairly regular clip. So by bringing up the handful of times PoC characters were interchanged with each other or the even fewer times PoC were allowed to play “white” roles, Jesus’ ethnic make-up, or telling PoC that our notice and general ‘pissed off-ness’ about this glaring issue is ‘small potatoes’ and what we ‘should be’ focused on is XYZ; just smacks of white privilege.
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@ v8driver @ Everett F. Pomare
As Sharina pointed out, if I had just said “Palestinian”, that would mean a Palestinian Arab. “Palestinian Jew” is a real term:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Jews
In written English it goes back to 1836:
https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Palestinian+Jew&year_start=1500&year_end=2015&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CPalestinian%20Jew%3B%2Cc0
Both the Roman and British empires called that region Palestine:
Even today, Bethlehem is in what is still called Palestinian land – the West Bank.
The Bible does call it Judaea, the older Roman name for the province, but calling Jesus a Judaean Jew would be confusing. So would calling him an Israeli Jew.
I could have called him a Mizrahi Jew, but I think that would be as clear as mud to most people, besides being kind of anachronistic.
If I just called him a “Jew”, then most people in the US would think of Seinfeld and Spielberg – Ashkenazic Jews. Which, given the topic, would be misleading.
In hindsight, it does seem “Palestinian Jew” is confusing too, but at least it brings people up short and makes them think, unlike just the word “Jew” alone, and it is the proper term for what I meant.
“Sephardic Jew”, though, might have been better overall, even if less precise.
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@ Mira
What are you saying? That they used Irishness as a way to mark him as not Greek, not as a way to Nordicize history?
I did point out in the post that, strictly speaking, it was NOT a case of whitewashing. I did throw it in, though, because, like all the other examples, it does seem to be a case of Nordicization.
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Brainwashing. I was a victim of that and now I am not.
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@dulce vita i think you say ‘point of order’ in a debate and it’s obviously something to it based on abagond’s reply.
In regards to the topic at hand, it is an unfortunate byproduct of american society, in these cases art does not imitate life
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
Hollywood whitewashing is part of the racist brainwashing of US culture. It affects everyone regardless of colour. It helps White Americans to maintain their sense of moral superiority as the “good guys” of history, leading to the deaths of millions abroad and brutal policing at home.
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Curious how Hollywood never seems to have trouble finding actors of colour to play the bad guys. But when it comes to playing the hero, that is suddenly SO difficult.
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@ Allen Shaw
Denzel Washington and Will Smith, unfortunately, are the exception, not the rule.
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Abagond,
What are you saying? That they used Irishness as a way to mark him as not Greek, not as a way to Nordicize history?
Yes, you can say so. I don’t know if they made it explicitly so, but it was one of the unfortunate effects. Oh, and let’s not forget Angelina Jolie (who played Alexander’s mother), who had one of the most horrible, offensive generic “Eastern European/Balkan” accent in recent cinema. She sounded like a bad rendition of Dracula.
That being said, I am not sure if whitewashing = “Nordicizing”? After all, Irish people are white, and so are Macedonians and Greeks. It IS a big issue, but it’s more along the lines of European ethnic (not racial) problems; it’s not racial.
I mean, I am from the Balkans. I have dark hair and eyes. I do not pass as any form of Anglo-Saxon/Nordic person and I can tell most white Canadians are lighter than me, but… I am white. So is Colin Farrell. What I mean, it’s a different problem we had with “Alexander”. What is offensive about Alexander is that they didn’t get any Greek actors (I think); that was never an option, even for Alexander’s mother, who wasn’t supposed to have a native English accent. They could have cast a Balkan actress but nah.
I am surprised LOM didn’t complain about Alexander; it was offensive to Irish people now that I think about it, because they are implied to be of lower civilization level than the English.
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Sorry, Abagond, I totally misunderstood your comment (in my defense, it’s around 5am here and I’m sleepy).
They used Colin Farrell’s Irishness to diferentiate between Macedonians and Greeks. However, the mere fact that Colin Farrell, who is not exactly blond and blue eyed has his hair blond in this movie reflects common stereotypes about the ways “Ancient Greeks” looked like (yeah, I know he was Macedonian but general audience can’t differentiate between the two).
Now, as we know, Ancient Greece is seen as a “cradle of European/Western civilization” TM, so we wouldn’t want someone who, you know, looks like an actual Greek (olive skin, dark hair and eyes – which Colin Farrell kind of fits) to play Alexander – we want someone who symbolizes Greece as a cradle of the Western civilization (especially coupled with his WOC wife, played by Rosario Dawson – who was kind of miscast because her ethnicity doesn’t match Roxanne’s, but that’s another issue).
So yeah, it’s messed up but not whitewashing in the sense these other things are, UNLESS you argue that Greeks are somehow not white.
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This is how Farrell actually looked around that time. He’s closer to that portrait of Alexander than how he looked in the movie:
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@ Mira
So why in the world did they make him blonde?
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@Everett F. Pomare
Please do not engage in a straw man argument. I never said anything about their culture being the same. I made it very clear that he did not in the post just say he was just “Palestinians”. The post clearly says Palestinians Jew. Palestinians Jew “refers to a Jewish inhabitant of Palestine (also known as the Land of Israel) prior to the establishment of the state of Israel.” Not sure why you’re confused.
The remainder of your links and such do nothing more than muddy the water. They are irrelevant and do not disprove or really change what was said. Sorry.
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@V8
“Or did you mean ethnically, i’m confused here by palestinian as well.”—-It is simply referring to the land he inhabited. For example if I said an American Jew. He is an American Jew because he inhabits America. Or a Parisian Jew because he inhabits Paris.
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I kind of liken the term ‘palestine’ to ‘middle east,’ ijs.
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Ok…
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_(region)
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@V8
“The boundaries of the region have changed throughout history. “—-This is very significant from your link. Depending on the time period depends on what we will view as what area.
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“So why in the world did they make him blonde?”
Because blonde or blonde-red is a very common ancient description of the colour of his hair?
http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/alexanderarticles/ss/031211-What-Color-Was-Alexander-The-Greats-Hair.htm
Aelian:
“They affirm likewise that Alexander Son of Philip was of a neglectful handsomness: For his Hair curled naturally, and was yellow;”
Callisthenes (might be just attributed to him):
“For he had the hair of a lion and one eye was blue;”
For example. That Alexander the Great was said to have blonde or blonde-red hair isn’t exactly news. That’s how he’s been depicted for *several thousand years*, going back to when he was alive essentially. The differences in hair colour was less marked across Europe and the middle east as recently as a thousand years ago. Not that uncommon with red or blonde hair in what is today the Middle East during the crusades for example. No, I don’t mean the crusaders.
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@sharina sheesh i’m takin a lot of flak over this one, i think since i’m always like back to balfour i’d say the ‘middle east’ which can also easily be referred to as palestine is up there with the vietnam war in terms of my favorite history stuff to study, and since i’m a latin scholar, i can go with that i guess it goes back way further than that (the name) and idk what else to say lol i know abagond said middle east was not so ‘pc’ at some point it was mostly directed to him but anyway…
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@Everett Pomare
“Jesus was Jewish”
Jesus was not “Jewish.” He practised judaism, but definitely was from Palestine, not Europe or America, which makes him a Palestinian.
“P.M. Netanyahu, the current leader of the Jewish people, is NOT of European ancestry, and he never has been. ”
In fact he is of European descent. His father was born in Poland to a Belorussian bloke named Nathan Mileikowsky.
@Abagond
“Curious how Hollywood never seems to have trouble finding actors of colour to play the bad guys. But when it comes to playing the hero, that is suddenly SO difficult.”
Right, they know precisely what they’re doing.
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“Jesus was not “Jewish.” He practised judaism, but definitely was from Palestine, not Europe or America, which makes him a Palestinian. ”
A Palestinian Jew to be more exact. Sheesh. Being Jewish is both an ethnicity and a religion. Palestinian back then was neither, it just described the region, which is what Abagond meant. Being a Jew has NOTHING to do with what geographic area you were born in.
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@naishee
“Being Jewish is both an ethnicity and a religion”
OK, if that’s how you want to define it, then Jesus was Jewish by religion, but not ethnicity. And yes, different ethnicities can have a common religion.
“Palestinian back then was neither, it just described the region”
OK, and Jew “back then was neither.” It wasn’t invented until the 16th century, not to describe an ethnicity.
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@v8driver
Not sure why you think you are getting flak? You said you were confused. I simply explained.
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@resw77
You… are in the “not even wrong” territory.
Unsure if you’re trolling or just… completely ignorant.
Judaism is a religion. Being a jew is an ethnicity. Judaism is the most common religion among jews, and generally it’s considered only jews can practice judaism.
And “Jew” being invented in the 16th century?
That’s… That’s so staggeringly ignorant.
But again: at the time of Jesus, in the land of Palestine, live a people called jews (their ethnicity), who practiced judaism (the religion of the vast majority of them, nearly 100%). Of them, Jesus was one. He was a jew from Palestine who practiced judaism.
*shakes head* I kinda hope you’re just trolling and not actually serious.
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Just read an article about the casting of a white actor in Kent State University production of Katori Hall’s The Mountain Top. The Mountaintop dramatizes the night before Martin Luther King was assassinated in 1968. The casting of a white actor and a black actor, when the playwright got word of this she was infuriated. Is this what they call taking artistic licence? The director of the play Michael Oatman said he chose a white actor for the production “To explore racial ownership and authenticity.” Oatman states he didn’t want this to be a stunt, but a true exploration of King’s wish that we all be judged by the content of our character and not the color of our skin. I don’t know if this is the same kind of white washing that’s been done in films, this may just be an experiment in art. I think that it’s an interesting device to use when creating art. The playwright Katori Hall response gave me food for thought when she said “I just really feel as though it echoes this pervasive erasure of the black body and the silencing of a black community-theatrically and also, literally, in the world,” When Hall made this statement it gives me pause, especially about silencing a black community. Think Black Lives Matter and how white folks lose their minds when this statement is uttered.
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The definition of who is a Jew and who is not and whether the word defines an ethnicity or a religion is highly political. Once oil drilling stops making sense and the corporations start ignoring the middle East the confusion will hopefully dissipate. I am of the opinion that most modern Jews are converts and descendants of converts. Last time I checked Ethiopian Jews are called fake Jews by some very respected Ashkenazi Rabbis. Once the political aspect is peeled away from “who is a Jew” question then we can have an honest discussion.
During Jesus time the people called Jews were darker in skin tone just like most Palestinians or Jews in Palestine.
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@naishee
“Judaism is a religion. Being a jew is an ethnicity.”
We agree that judaism is a religion. However, not all people who practise Judaism are of the same ethnicity. Just like not all people who practise Christianity are of the same ethnicity. It really is not a complicated concept.
“And “Jew” being invented in the 16th century?”
Yes, “Jew” is an English word that dates to the 16th century. Clearly you’re the ignorant one. Its etymological origins are from the Greek word Ioudaios, which means a resident of Judea. Jesus spent much of his life in Galilee, not Judea. He was by all means a Galilean. FYI.
Your weak attempts to link Jesus ethnically to the pale descendants of Europeans who practise Judaism don’t work on me.
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@resw77
The word Jew has a longer history in English than the 16th century; the pronounciation and spelling having changed. It didn’t suddenly appear in the 16th century. The origin isn’t somebody from Judea either, but one of the tribe of Judah, one of the 12 tribes of Israel (which doesn’t refer to the country). “Jewish” today essentialy means “israelite”.
As Maimonides wrote in the 12th century:
“He [Jesus] was a Jew because his mother was a Jewess although his father was a Gentile. For in accordance with the principles of our law, a child born of a Jewess and a Gentile, or of a Jewess and a slave, is legitimate. ”
You repeatedly seem to confuse region with ethnicity. Or possibly you confuse ethnicity with race (“pale descendants”?). Yeah, Jesus is linked to todays jews through religion and ethnicity. Where somebody was born has no bearing on their ethnicity.
You should also read up on what an ethnoreligious group (like the jews) is.
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@ villagewriter
“During Jesus time the people called Jews were darker in skin tone just like most Palestinians or Jews in Palestine.”
.
Is it your opinion that during Jesus’ time, the Egyptian people were considerably darker than the Egyptian population is now?
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@Fan
The Egyptians yeah I believe they were.
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@ villagewriter
Jesus’ parents, Mary and Joseph, took baby Jesus into Egypt to escape Herod, according to Matthew 2:13 (New Testament) in accordance with an angel’s instruction, right?
If Mary and Joseph AND Jesus were then the complexion of what the typical Egyptian is today, wouldn’t they have stood out in stark contrast to the much darker Egyptians in their era, negating the entire hiding out/fleeing from Herod and his plan for little Jesus?
If the 3 of them were light skinned among the much darker Egyptians, it would be similar to someone of Desmond Tutu’s complexion trying to “hide” out in Finland. That couldn’t work out very well, would it?
Any thoughts?
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@naishee
“The word Jew has a longer history in English than the 16th century”
Unfortunately it’s not written in any book (in English) prior to the 16th century.
“The origin isn’t somebody from Judea either, but one of the tribe of Judah, one of the 12 tribes of Israel”
The oldest inscriptions of Ioudaios and its etymological links make geographic reference. And centuries later it was used as a proper name for people who both did and did not practise Judaism. The whole tribe of Judah idea didn’t come until much much later in history.
“As Maimonides wrote in the 12th century”
Maimonides didn’t write in English. So he didn’t use the English word “Jew.” Try again.
“You repeatedly seem to confuse region with ethnicity”
Actually, that’s what you did and continue to do. I’m making a clear distinction.
“You should also read up on what an ethnoreligious group”
LOL. You should read up on the history of Jesus, as well as the different ethnicities of people who practise Judaism all over the world.
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@Villagewriter said,
I am of the opinion that most modern Jews are converts and descendants of converts.
Uh.. the Jews are NOT converts, and they never have been, since you can’t convert yourself to another ethnicity. They are the physical descendants of the Israelites, and they still are Israelites. It is important to know that not all Jewish people practice the religion. They are the same people you read about in the Bible, and their own holidays (such as Passover and Rosh Hashona) prove it.
Once again, here is a Chick tract to prove it:
“Miss Universe”
(https://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0287/0287_01.asp)
Every single modern Jew is alive today because of what Queen Esther did. You can’t convert from one ethnicity to another.
“The Passover Plot”
(http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0068/0068_01.asp)
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@resw77 @Abagond @naishee
You should read my above posting as well. Perhaps the links to the Chick stories will clear up the confusion.
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@ Everett F. Pomare
The Wikipedia on Chick Publications:
More:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_tract#Criticism
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@Everett F. Pomare
“the Jews are NOT converts, and they never have been, since you can’t convert yourself to another ethnicity.”
You can, however, convert to a religion. It happens even today. You should read up on the history of voluntary and forced conversions to Judaism.
“You should read my above posting as well.”
No thanks. You were wrong about Netanyahu’s European origins, so I don’t trust what you have to say.
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@Abagond @Everyone
You shouldn’t always believe what you hear on the Web. Chick Publications is NOT a hate group (and it never has been). See for yourself
“This Was Your Life”
(https://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0001/0001_01.asp)
“Who’s the Real Hater?”
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1925/1925_01.asp)
The entire series of black tracts
Click to read, and tell me what you think of them
(http://www.chick.com/catalog/tractbykeyword.asp?subject=Black%20Tract%20Series)
The REAL story of Jack Chick himself
(http://www.chick.com/information/authors/chick.asp)
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@resw77
Netanyahu is NOT European! His ancestors just returned from Europe to their homeland!
The P.M. speaks the language of his Middle Eastern ancestors. the rightful and true owners of Israel
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EnwfNl2Ixg)
There is your proof!!
Netanyahu himself
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/Benjamin_Netanyahu_2012.jpg)
His features are in no way whatsoever (including language and linguistically) European! He’s a Middle Easterner through and through!
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@Everyone
Who in their right minds sees the people of Israel as Europeans/ They’re not, not even Netanyahu! The prime minister’s ancestors are a very ancient family in Israel, having been living there since Bible times. Please get the facts correct!
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@resw77
Netanyahu is not of European ancestry, and he never has been. His family’s been in their rightfully owned ancestral homeland since the days of the Old Testament. Get the facts right, and stop fooling yourself!
Hava Nagilah
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egvyLJnoZrs)
This is not European, and neither are the clothes.
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Jack chick comics?
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Jabari Jones and others from Allen Shaw
That is it in a nutshell!
People with money use their money the way they want to! They cater to a White audience and quite frankly do not care what a few intellectuals talk about. Movies have to make money or the producer looses their shirt. The making of movies is a business that must make a profit.
When the $$ of the Black public are large enough to make a difference things will change!
We have Black producers of movies and they seem to do alright; however they do not make the same $$ as White producers selling a product to the White public.
Once again you are talking about a business that must make a profit!
Finally, one of these days the people of this nation are going to wrap up the past horrible conditions that existed and move on into the future.
The White’s of this nation will soon be a minority, and while Blacks talk about White privilege a vast number of Whites are living in abject poverty in most of the Southern States.
Blacks will move upward as they apply themselves by gaining an education. Today the Community Colleges are full of young Black individual who will move on into successful jobs, which make up the middle class! It will not be helpful to them to fill their heads up with the past which can never be repeated.
When an intellect looks towards Africa which is the main source of the Black American they see the rising of individuals who will overcome the old traditional tribal thinking. More and more individuals are gaining wealth and will become leaders of a new Africa that will assist in equalizing and reducing the power the European (White) have had.
Do not cry – Get educated “hi school, jr college, bs, mS, PHD” upward and onward always doing your best regardless of the barriers.
Do you really care if some White does not accept you!
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@Everett F. Pomare
“Who in their right minds sees the people of Israel as Europeans”
You wrongly said Netanyahu had no European ancestry, when in fact, he does. His father is of Belorussian and Polish descent, his mother Lithuanian and Polish.
His father changed his surname from Mileikowsky to Netanyahu. I guess that’s why you’re so confused, or are you attempting to revise history?
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Everett Pomare’s misbeliefs are a good example of the power the white “Jewish” run Hollywood has on people’s perceptions of reality. It really is sad.
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@v8driver @Abagond
I don’t see anything at all hateful. in the Chick stories. See for yourselves
The complete listing of all stock and non-stock titles. To see the non-stock titles, just click on the “Don’t see what you want?” button.
(https://www.chick.com/catalog/tractlistcustomWcovers.asp?language=English)
@resw77
Of course Netanyahu is Middle Eastern native
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/Benjamin_Netanyahu_2012.jpg/800px-Benjamin_Netanyahu_2012.jpg)
His wife, Sara ben Artzi de Netanyahu
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Sara_Netanyahu.jpg)
His brother, Jonathan
(https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/People/yoninetanyahu.gif)
His father, Benzion Netanyahu
(data:image/jpeg;base64,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)
And finally, his grandfather, Nathan Netanyahu
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZFfAOmzMlm0/T47nYbMfz8I/AAAAAAAAAqQ/02BAMXjfaJU/s1600/Asher+Ginsburg+-+Cultural+Zionism's+founder.jpg)
Now here’s a final extra: The P.M. celebrating Hanukkah back in 1996
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZFfAOmzMlm0/T47nYbMfz8I/AAAAAAAAAqQ/02BAMXjfaJU/s1600/Asher+Ginsburg+-+Cultural+Zionism's+founder.jpg)
Although some do have some slight European ancestry, overall, NOT one of them in that family is of European descent. They are Middle Easterners (Jews), and ought to be very proud of that!
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Re: Alexander’s hair color. It is true some sources mention blond or reddish-yellow it’s just some of the ways Alexander was described… Pointing out hair and eye color or even skin shade was not really how they described people (not in the way we do today at least).
Nevertheless, the “real” Alexander is not the point here; it’s more of an image of Alexander as an Ancient Greek, and Ancient Greeks are typically imagined as Greek statues: pale. Which gave rise to the idea of “Western ideal of beauty”. Which I think the filmmakers were going for – they wanted to make Farrell look like a Greek statue. Which yeah, is problematic in this sense – mainly because this is exactly what Western Europe did starting 18th century – they appropriated Greek culture for themselves – Western Europeans saw themselves and their civilization as the continuation of Ancient Greek civilization and not those 18th century Greeks (dark, short), enslaved by Ottomans for centuries. So they basically stole and appropriated a lot of Greek culture for themselves and sidelined Greeks/tried to divorce them from their own cultural legacy.
So yeah, there are a lot of problematic elements going on in there but again, not whitewashing in the sense most of the other examples on this page are. Why am I insisting on this? Because I see it as two separate issues, and by including an example of appropriation among two different groups of white people it kind of dilutes the whole argument because it’s just not the same when POC are whitewashed (which is the issue here).
I mean, I personally appreciate that you talked about this, Abagond, because the issue of conflicts between whites in Europe is important – in Europe, it’s not enough to be “white” – you have to be of the “right” ethnicity and some ethnic groups (mainly those from Eastern Europe, South-East Europe/Balkans, or South Europe, or even the Irish) are seen as inferior to the Anglo-Saxon/”proper” Western Europeans. So yeah, that IS an issue, and it’s still important in the European context. But it’s a different issue than whitewashing in the US sense.
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@resww77
Those are not ” false beliefs”, my good man. Those are facts! The Netanyahu family has (with the Polish and Lithuanian exceptions you mentioned) been living in Israel for thousands upon thousands of years, making them (and other Jews) the original, native inhabitants who had the land stolen from them by the Romans in 70 A.D.
Here’s a video from Bryan Denlinger (husky394xp) to clear things up
1.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdpeZwpek00)
2.
Bryan Denlinger debunking some of your weird facts
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-Y8LlN_MI4&index=9&list=PLL4itf8rGtj4NuE1WDElVtgH_gNYdVvB0)
Hope I clarified.
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@Mira
“Ancient Greeks are typically imagined as Greek statues: pale. ”
I agree with most of what you said , but to be clear, ancient Greeks typically didn’t portray themselves as pale, nor did they consider themselves pale in literature. The Greek statues were colourful, much of which has either worn off or been deliberately removed.
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@resw77
Israelis are all Jews, native and indigenous to the land. They are not European!
Jewish children in Israel
(http://njjewishnews.com/njjn.com/070308/mosderotkidsMO.jpg)
Those kids are native to the land that was stolen from them by the Romans. They are not one bit European, and neither is their leader and neither were any of the Holocaust victims. The victims of that returned to the land that belonged to them, and them alone. Read correct history, @resw77!
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@Everett F. Pomare
We see you’re a revisionist. I’m sorry but you can’t change the fact that Netanyahu’s parents are Europeans.
There are many other Israelis with ancestry in Europe, Africa, and elsewhere in Asia. Sorry, we don’t buy your Zionist lies!
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Proof about Jesus @ resw77, @Everyone
(http://www.gotquestions.org/was-Jesus-a-Jew.html)
Pastor Bryan Denlinger debunking the misconceptions of @resw77
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-Y8LlN_MI4&index=9&list=PLPtAOpWObw6Vs3pdd5aqih-Ee9cErOio2)
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resw77,
Yes, exactly. The statues were painted but the paint didn’t survive to our days. (Same goes for Greek temples – also painted in bright colors). The whole aesthetics of Ancient Greece is different than imagined today.
This includes Ancient Greek people, too. There was a lot of mixing going on in those areas of the world and since our ideas of race didn’t exist back then it was not seen as controversial, nor did anyone bother to describe people in what we’d today call “racial lines”.
Greeks did differentiate between themselves (native speakers of Greek language) and barbarians – those who did not speak the language. BUT! – they also differentiate between “civilized” barbarians such as Egyptians and those inferior, wild and “uncivilized” barbaric tribes on their north and west (= today’s Europe).
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@resw77
Sorry, but the Jews are Middle Easterners. They are natives, my friend, and it (Israel) belongs to them, not to the Arabs. Those Jews on the West Bank are just settling on land that’s been theirs for thousands of years, promised by God himself.
“Squatters”
( https://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1019/1019_01.asp)
Why we need to support Israel
(http://www.gotquestions.org/support-Israel.html)
“Somebody Angry?”
(https://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1055/1055_01.asp)
“Love the Jewish People”
(https://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1000/1000_01.asp)
Josh Feueurstein (Messianic) on Obama and Israel
(https://www.facebook.com/joshua.feuerstein.5/videos/636068526495833/?pnref=story)
That will clarify for you!
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resww
I’m not being a “revisionist”. Just stating facts
The Jews are the owners of Israel, just as the Indians were owners of America.
(https://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1055/1055_01.asp)
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@resw77
I meant to write “@resw77”. Sorry. Read my comment above, and click on its link to see what I exactly mean. Then you’ll be enlightened with truth and will understand. The Jews the world over had been praying to return to their land one day for many generations
“Prophecy Fulfilled: American Jews Return to Israel”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rzo4YKnYqc)
That is all the proof, right there! They’re native, and returning to their ORIGINAL homeland. The same homeland of Jesus and his disciples and St. Paul, who were all Jewish!
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@Everett Pomare
I forgot to mention yet one more factual correction to your web of lies, Israelis are not “all Jews” as you said. There are many who are Christian and Muslim.
“I’m not being a “revisionist””
Yet you’re basically telling me that Netanyahu, the son of a self-proclaimed Zionist Revisionist European is somehow not European. Sounds like revisionism to me.
” Just stating facts”
That’s funny, I didn’t catch any facts from you. Almost everything you said has been debunked by actual facts I’ve laid on.
“The Jews are the owners of Israel”
I’m sure people who call themselves Jews are since Zionists stole much of Palestine after launching a war in 1948. Of course the Romans, Ottomans and British had already tried.
And if you’re trying to convince me that some pale, Zionist Europeans have their ancestry in Palestine, please save it, I don’t believe in the fairy tales Zionists came up with in the 1800s.
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@rew77
Here is Pastor Bryan Denlinger debunking your false beliefs
“Rewarded for Blessing the Jews”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdpeZwpek00)
You are promoting a belief that is against the Bible. Consider yourself proven wrong. Watch and tell me what you think.
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@resw77
I meat to type “resw77” in the comment above. See the truth, be enlightened by the linked video above by Bryan Denlinger
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@Kiwi
First off, did you watch the video in the link above? If you did, Pastor Bryan Denlinger debunks the false beliefs/assumptions that you and @resw77 are promoting. In it, Pastor Denlinger PROVES, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the Jews are native to Israel/Mideast. Once you’ve watched it, in the spirit of debate, see if you can try to “debunk” what Denlinger says. I for one, am not convinced by what you both are saying. Watch the video, and see that you are wrong.
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@Everett F. Pomare
Most of what you are relying on is comic strips and assumptions from youtube videos Versus DNA evidence. Your pastor Denlinger is not proving beyond a reasonable doubt. He is going through scriptural versus and interpreting them to mean xyz. I am not asking you to believe what anyone says, but I am asking that you stop acting like it is fact when it is not.
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Want more proof? Well, here it is @Kiwi @sharina @resw77
John Hagee’s website
(http://www.cufi.org/site/PageServer)
(http://www.cufi.org/site/PageServer?pagename=Scriptures_About_Blessing_Israel)
(http://www.cufi.org/site/PageServer?pagename=CongregationalRepresentative)
Peace for Israel (Jack Heintz)
(http://peaceforisrael.net/about)
DNA proof that they are NOT Europeans!!
(http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/05/000509003653.htm)
Jesus
(http://www.gotquestions.org/was-Jesus-a-Jew.html)
Why we MUST support Israel
(http://www.gotquestions.org/support-Israel.html)
Josh Fuerstein (Messianic)
( https://www.facebook.com/joshua.feuerstein.5/videos/636068526495833/?pnref=story)
Consider yourself educated!
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@Sharina @Kiwi
Herwe’s a link from FB disproving your fallacies
(https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1660983380852249&id=100008218094520&comment_id=1661220890828498¬if_t=feed_comment)
Bottom line: No such thing as a “Palestinian Jew”.
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@Kiwi
As a matter of fact, I do! Among them, are the editor of my high school’s newspaper, an old classmate, and the captain of the school’s girl’s lacrosse team. They are all very good people, and great to be around. I’m not “imposing” any heritage. What I’m saying is that there’s no such thing as a “Palestinian Jew”. The majority of my friends growing up have been either white or Jewish, so I know. Also, the word “Palestinian” is a fake term created back in the sixties in order for the Arabs to falsely claim the land of Israel, which belongs to the Jews, and to them alone! They are not white, but Middle Eastern, and have each and every right to be proud of that fact! Israel is their land, the Jewish homeland, as the Bible says!
Here’s a link from the Christian Broadcasting Network (CBN News)
(http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/insideisrael/2015/august/americans-canadians-immigrate-to-israel/)
They are returning to the land of which they are the ORIGINAL AND TRUE inhabitants, reclaiming their lost lands, just as some of the Indians have already done.
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@Kiwi
They are also the chosen people of God, and you cannot deny that!
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Also, Netanyahu is a literal descendant of ancient Israelites, @Kiwi, and you can’t deny that either. Israel belongs to them.
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@Kiwi
Their ancestors are from the Middle East. The reason why you say “European” is because the Romans forced them out from their native land in 70 A.D. Get the facts right! Because of this, many of them ended up in Europe, but kept to themselves (although some married natives) which explains why some do have “White” features.
Jews and Arabs are basically the samne, being descended from Abraham
Look at the weddings
Arab wedding
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFYmqLIGHYs)
Jewish wedding
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nacYgnQLHjY)
Notice how in both videos, they’re doing versions of the Horah. This proves that Jews are as Middle Eastern as they come, and not from Europe! Not only that, but Jews are very proud of their Mideastern heritage/culture, and they’ve every right to be!
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Good lord, People are now using Chick Tracts to try to prove their point? He once made a tract about D&D. He believes they perform actual demon summoning rituals when they play…
as for resw77…
“Unfortunately it’s not written in any book (in English) prior to the 16th century.”
Linguistics, ever heard of that discipline? The roots of the modern English word is hardly obscure, it didn’t just pop into existence in the 16th century. Seriously…
“Maimonides didn’t write in English. So he didn’t use the English word “Jew.” Try again.”
That’s completely irrelevant, since the question is about jews as an ethnicity, and that’s what Maimonides described. “Jew” is the modern English word for that, but the concept, and the word, existed in the English language well before the 16th century.
““You repeatedly seem to confuse region with ethnicity”
Actually, that’s what you did and continue to do. I’m making a clear distinction.””
? YOU are the one claiming the place one is born (region) decides one’s ethnicity. A Jew (or an Arab, or a Kurd and so forth) may be born in the US, France, Japan or whatever. A Kurd being born in Sweden would still be a Kurd ethnically (and may ALSO identify as a Swede ethnically. Dual ethnicity. It happens).
“LOL. You should read up on the history of Jesus, as well as the different ethnicities of people who practise Judaism all over the world.”
99.9% of the people practicing judaism over the world are ethnic jews. Care to give any examples of non-jews practicing judaism “all over the world”?
But I think it’s quite clear from all your comments here that you don’t understand the difference between “race” and “ethnicity”. So what if a lot of jews are pale and identify as white? Lots of ethnicities are predominantly white, jews less so than, say, Finns or Scots.
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Lol..guys you have just encountered a ”chosen people” believer on this blog. Logic will not work on him, he basicallt worships the ”Holy Land” and the white people that occupy it. That’s why I say that we should wait until the oil is no longer in that region for us to really talk honestly about Jews.
@Fan
I didn’t know Herod sent his soldiers to Egypt to look for Jesus. I was of the opinion that Egypt would have been under a different Roman Governor at that point who would not have allowed another Governor to conduct military activities in his territory. At that point of time Egypt would have been mostly populated by dark skinned people but with immigrants from Libya, the Middle East and so on. So, Jesus and his parents would have comfortably fitted in with the population. Any thoughts?
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@naishee
It would be easier to believe you if powerful Jews actually believed what you say about ethnicity. But the racism within the groups that identify as Jewish is just to obvious to ignore.
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@naishee
“it didn’t just pop into existence in the 16th century. ”
I guess that’s a “No,” you don’t know of any use of that word prior to the 16th century.
“That’s completely irrelevant”
It’s quite relevant if you’re denying that “Jew” was introduced in the English language in the 16th century.
“YOU are the one claiming the place one is born (region) decides one’s ethnicity”
I said no such thing. I specifically said “not all people who practise Judaism are of the same ethnicity.” Your problem is that you’re confusing religion and ethnicity.
Like a typical Zionist, you want me to believe all people who practise Judaism have some right to Palestine (except the black and brown ones, of course) just because of your personal interpretation of a storybook. I’m sorry, save it for someone else.
@villagewriter
“But the racism within the groups that identify as Jewish is just to obvious to ignore”
That’s pretty much to the point. I should have said that earlier to avoid all naishee’s nonsense.
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@Kiwi, @All
Here is Pastor Denlinger again
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdpeZwpek00)
Also, read the link from FB:
(https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1660983380852249&id=100008218094520&comment_id=1661220890828498¬if_t=feed_comment)
They (Jewish people) are the rightful and TRUE owners of Israel, and you can’t change that. They are not European settlers, since it has been theirs from time immemorial.
(https://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1055/1055_01.asp)
Stop disrespecting Israel, and support P.M. Netanyahu now!
Why we should support Israel
(http://www.gotquestions.org/support-Israel.html)
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@Everett F. Pomare
The facebook link you posted says it no longer exists. I am guessing the original poster realized how false it was and removed it. So we are back to the point where you are presenting fallacies and convincing yourself everyone else is.
“Bottom line: No such thing as a “Palestinian Jew”.”—-Those links above says they are. Links that have more credibility than comic strips and a youtube pastor saying he thinks.
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@Everett F. Pomare
Here is the link you presented to Rews above. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/05/000509003653.htm
It states: Jews Are The Genetic Brothers Of Palestinians, Syrians, And Lebanese
Also:Consequently, Jews and Arabs share a common ancestor and are more closely related to one another than to non-Jews from other areas of the world.
In short your own link just proved YOU wrong. If you don’t realize how then….just wow.
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@sharina
Fine then. I’ll paste it here
It is true that their is no such thing as a palestinian Jew. In fact the term palestinian did not even come about until the mid 20th century. Don’t trust everything you read on the website
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@sharina @villagewriter
Also, map of the land God promised to the Jews in full:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Davids-kingdom.jpg)
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@Everett F. Pomare
“Fine then. I’ll paste it here”—If it is a meme, comic strip, opinion piece, or youtube video. Don’t bother.
“In fact the term palestinian did not even come about until the mid 20th century.”—It does not matter when it came into existence, because if we are going to play the word game then middle eastern need to not be used because it would be inaccurate today considering the territorial changes. Using that bs to excuse you being wrong is not an excuse. I just hate dishonest people.
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Not it exactly, but close enough
.
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@Everett F. Pomare
Please take your straw man arguments and have a seat. I am not interested in your fallacy after fallacy argument to muddy the waters. I never said anything or disputed anything about the promised lands to jews. So save it. Plus that jpg proves about as much as a pictures of the moon in a murder case.
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Why we should support Israel: @sharina, rews77 @All
(http://www.gotquestions.org/support-Israel.html)
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Everett F. Pomare
Another irrelevant link. I could go to the same site or similar, ask a question, and get a thorough answer. How legit it is will depend on if my audience chooses to give it credibility. Your point?
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Israel has all the support it needs including 400 nuclear weapons. No one is going to attack that country soon. The struggle in the Middle East is all about resources and power. That is all; there is nothing ”divine” or ”chosen” about it.
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@All
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5hZGv4vP08)
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Here is a new link:
(http://www.ifcj.org/site/PageNavigator/eng/involved/prayer_team/prayer_team)
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@Everett F. Pomare
What is the purpose of link after link that just do not prove your point? You simply can not be taken seriously and this is considered the last comment to you for that very reason.
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@Kiwi @Sharina
That is because Terrorists constantly attack Israel, therefore they’re protecting their RIGHTFULLY OWNED land. Read the link below and see what I mean.
((http://www.ifcj.org/site/PageNavigator/eng/involved/prayer_team/prayer_team)
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@ Fan
By that time there was a large Jewish community in Alexandria. Jews were a fourth of the city or about 250,000. Jesus would have never been found there.
He also did not stick out in Jerusalem of the time: he had to be betrayed by a kiss. The people of Jersualem were darker skinned then since it did not have so many European Jews.
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@ Mira
I did say in the post that it was not, strictly speaking, a case of whitewashing.
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@ resw77
From Wycliffe’s Bible of 1395 (emphasis mine):
The same verse (John 9:22) in the King James Bible of 1611 (emphasis mine):
So “Jew” existed in English by at least 1395.
According to Etymology Online;
Source:
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=jew&searchmode=none
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https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/1374832_10203543887666367_2438597428767202215_n.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=f1fdc05402828e8465d02bb7e2824a2d&oe=56ECEF9E
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@ Everett F. Pomare
According to Etymology Online:
Source:
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=palestinian&searchmode=none
So can we stop already?
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@ Everett F. Pomare
A whitewashed Hollywood Jesus does strengthen the land claims of European Jews to a patch of South West Asia. But that is not a point you seem to be arguing. Instead you seem to be ranting off-topic.
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@ villagewriter
“So, Jesus and his parents would have comfortably fitted in with the population. Any thoughts?”
….
Yes. There remains a lot of historical controversy: about the Bible, its major protagonists, geography and the people that are called Jews. I have a lot of research and studying to do on this matter. Here’s one webpage that has some very interesting things to say:
http://stewartsynopsis.com/africans_wrote_the_bible.htm
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@Everett F. Pomare
My understanding of the history of Palestine is vastly different. It is my understanding that the earliest inhabitants of Palestine were the Neanderthals. Their presence predated early Homo Sapiens who migrated out of Africa roughly 60, 000 years ago. The early humans and Neanderthals intermingled and their descendants formed the basis of the first people of Palestine. http://www.techtimes.com/articles/29413/20150128/humans-and-neanderthals-interbred-in-middle-east-evidence-from-ancient-skull.htm
Those early people were hunter-gatherers and later agriculturalists/pastoralists. They formed matriarchal and matrilineal societies that worshipped a great Goddess who went by many names in the region. They eventually organized themselves into city-states such as Samaria and Jericho. http://www.britannica.com/place/Samaria-historical-region-Palestine
Around 2,000 BCE, nomadic tribes who spoke an ancient version of Hebrew began wandering through the land of Canaan, which roughly covers the present Palestine/state of Israel. According to some scholars, over the course of centuries, the tribes “… slowly infiltrated the land and never conquered all of it, settling mostly in the higher hill areas, while groups like the Philistines continued to dominate the richer lowlands. Many modern scholars believe that the group coming out of [Egyptian enslavement] actually united with various peoples already living in Canaan, and …[adapted] their own Egyptian-influenced beliefs to those of the Canaanites, forged a new religion and created the “twelve tribes” which make up the traditional Hebrew nation.” http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/wcsyllabus/answers/jews.html
It is my understanding that though the Hebrews eventually dominated parts Canaan, they continued to live side by side (sometimes uneasily) with the original inhabitants. These neighbors still referred to themselves by their town or city-state names like most other people in the world since there were no nation states at that time of human history. It wasn’t until the time of Roman rule that the Canaan region was “…was re-named Palaestina, from Philistia. The name Palaestina became Palestine in English.” http://www.salaam.co.uk/themeofthemonth/may02_index.php?l=8
That renaming of Canaan to Palestine occurred around the early 300s CE.
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@Fan
You do realize that many of the residents of Ancient Egypt were not ethnically Egyptian. And that the Egyptians themselves had already mixed with several other peoples by the time of Christ. So it is quite possible that the residents of Egypt were not as dark as they originally were, meaning that Jesus wouldn’t necessarily have to be particularly dark to hide among them.
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http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Palestine.html#.Vkj2bfmrSUk
wow, ham not shem
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afrofem said:
“The early humans and Neanderthals intermingled and their descendants formed the basis of the first people of Palestine.”
interesting, maybe something to do with the nephilim lol
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@Fan
I was intrigued with the information about the Lemba. Too bad they would be discriminated against in the ”Land of the Jews”. Thanks for the link.
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@v8driver
I wasn’t familiar with the term ‘nephilim’, but perhaps the Neanderthals form the basis of the that group in the early legends and and folkways of the ancient Canaanites/Palestinians.
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@Afrofem
Interesting. Some people speculate that perhaps Enkidu, Gilgamesh’s companion from the Sumarian Epic of Gilgamesh, was in fact a Neanderthal.
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@ villagewriter
“I was intrigued with the information about the Lemba. Too bad they would be discriminated against in the ”Land of the Jews”. Thanks for the link.”
.
You’re welcome. Yes, racism is rampant globally, even in the so-called Promised Land.
This thread has renewed my intrigue (in the mentioning of who is NOT) based upon Revelations 2:9 and Revelations 3:9. Is there more there than what initially meets the eye? Possibly.
I’ve learned from much experience that conventional wisdom is often utterly false and misleading.
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@Abagond
“Jewis” is not “Jew” (and Middle English is not English). That was my only point. Since naishee wanted to quibble that the word “Palestinian” was not used back in the day, I was also being technical about when the word “Jew” was introduced, which was not until the 16th century.
@”Originally, “Hebrew of the kingdom of Judah.””
If that’s true, then to be a Jew you have to be both a Hebrew and of the kingdom of Judah.
So what is a Hebrew? Etymology of Hebrew:
“late Old English, from Old French Ebreu, from Latin Hebraeus, from Greek Hebraios, from Aramaic ‘ebhrai, corresponding to Hebrew ‘ibhri “an Israelite.” Traditionally from an ancestral name Eber, but probably literally “one from the other side,” perhaps in reference to the River Euphrates, or perhaps simply signifying “immigrant;” from ‘ebher “region on the other or opposite side.””
So what is an Israelite? Etymology of Israelite:
mid-14c., “one of the people of ancient Israel,” from Latin israelita, from Greek Israelites, from Israel (see Israel). The Middle English adjective was Israelish (Old English Israelisc), sometimes Israelitish.”
So practising a religion such as Judaism doesn’t make Europeans automatically Jesus’ cousins and heirs to Palestine..
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@ resw77
Well, if that is how you want to look at it, then every word we use was “invented” after 1450. Not only were there no “Jews” before 1450, there was no anyone.
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@ resw77
Since you claim that the English word for those descended from from Abraham through Isaac did not exist until the sixteenth century, can you show me documented proof?
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@Everett F. Pomare
“That is because Terrorists constantly attack Israel, therefore they’re protecting their RIGHTFULLY OWNED land. Read the link below and see what I mean.”—Please explain to me what this has to do with you falsely claiming that there is no such thing as a Palestinian Jew? I could care less about a site dedicated to prayer. I could careless about your straw man arguments. Your dishonest behind was wrong and cowardly hide behind a bunch of Bo point, no sense making articles that you want to claim prove or show or refute something that no one ever said.
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@Sharina @resw77
That is because there really is no such thing as a Palestinian Jew. The Palestinians are not native to the land. Here is another link from Pastor Denlinger
( http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AtOHGmbEoY4)
For the rest of the videos, just go to YouTube and type in “Replacement Theology Lies”. You both can tell me what you think. I happen to believe that you both are promoting replacement theology.
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@Everett F. Pomare
Again that is not proving that there is no such thing as a Palestinian Jew, but I see 3 links above now that prove otherwise. You are grasping at straws.
“I happen to believe that you both are promoting replacement theology.”—I happen to believe you are in denial and don’t engage in reality much. According to your comments…. That would be true.
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It is true that “Palestinian Jews” do not exist, since the Jewish people are the TRUE natives of that land. Stop fooling yourseves, @Kiwi, resw77, and Sharina. In fact, the Palestinians were once known as “Canaanites” and “Samaritans” in Bible times. The Bible says towards the end of Second Kings, that when the northern Jewish kingdom fell to the Assyrians (Arabs) some Arabs immigrated there. Originally, the plan was to send a rabbi to teach them the ways of the Israelites. However, what they did was mix up their own paganism with the worship of Yahweh, and you got the Samaritan original religion. Many years later, in the New Testament, Jesus spoke to a Palestinian woman at the well, and Jesus reminded her that “salvation was of the Jews”. The word “Palestinian” as a matter of fact, comes from the word “Phillistine”. The Phillistines were Arabs who, in the old testament times, ruled the Jewish people with an iron fist, continuing to attack the Jews up until King David’s time.
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@Everett F. Pomare
If it were true, then you would have no problem proving it. So far the score is
YOU: 0
Everyone else:3
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@Abagond
“Not only were there no “Jews” before 1450, there was no anyone”
That’s not what I was arguing. Naishee said “Palestinian,” an English word, didn’t exist in Jesus’ time, and my point was neither did “Jew,” and English word. Just because words used in Aramaic and Greek texts that were translated into English centuries later does not mean they have the same meanings.
And the word Jew as used today does not necessarily have the same meaning as its Greek and Aramaic ancestors.
@Everett Pomare
“The Palestinians are not native to the land”
Regardless of your belief, Palestinans (people from Palestine) were in Palestine before Europeans who practise Judaism came and stole it.
Zionism is a real movement begun in the late 1800s by . They were looking for a place where the Jewish would be the majority, and they used the British armed forces’ control of Palestine and powerful Jewish bankers to accomplish this goal.
Palestinian Jews (Palestinians who practise Judaism) are the ones who were there before Zionism (a real movement begun by Theodor Herzl, a European, and fueled by activists like Benzion Mileikowsky, Netanyahu’s European father), and European Jews (Europeans who practise Judaism) are the ones who came since Zionism.
Not all Jews (people who practise Judaism) are Zionists (people who believe in a majority Jew state in Palestine) like you.
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Of course the Jews are native to Israel. The Bible says so. Stop revising history.
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@sharina @Kiwi @resw77
Please learn history. It really is their homeland. Many people have proved it before, even HENRY LOUIS GATES, JR. himself! Alan Dershowitz has proved it, Pastor John Hagee has proved it, the government has proved it, the UN has proved it, your teacher has proved it, your pastor has proved it, TBN has proved it, Paul Crouch has proved it, George Washington has proved it, Ben Carson has proved it, the Bible has proved it, your Bible study class has proved it!
Link from Prof. Alan Dershowitz’s “The Case for Israel”:
(https://books.google.com/books?id=Dunx_i1P6fMC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false)
So there, the proof is there. That is all the truth you need.
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@Everett F. Pomare
Why would I need to learn history when I never said anything or made a claim on Jewish history? I never said it was not their homeland not once. Learn how to debate. Learn how to provide adequate proof to your claims.
“So there, the proof is there. That is all the truth you need.”—That book is still not YOUR proof. It does not support your original claim and it does not dispute what I said. Try again.
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As a side note you might want to carefully read that source. It does not support you as much as you would like.
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@sharina
Israel really is the Jewish homeland. It has been proven time and time again, throughout history. In the bgook of Nehemiah it says:
Also, in the book of Ezra it says:
So you see, it is their land! Stop being ignorant of history. The same Jews that you find in the Bible are those same Jews today, and you can’t change that!
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@resw77
That picture is clearly photo-shopped. No Jewish person would reject Israel in a million years. It is their land, and their land alone. The constitution of that country clearly states that it a a Jewish and democratic state. Those settlements in the West Bank have always been on Jewish land, because God said it was. Stop posting fake pics of things that are not real, like the one above.
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OFF TOPIC: Jewish land claims to Israel/Palestine.
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2
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@ Everett F. Pomare
Comment deleted for being off-topic.
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@Everett F. Pomare
No, nothing was photoshopped. You’re just in denial.
And no, nothing in the Bible proves any claim you’ve made.
Judging from your comments, you clearly watch far too much TV and have probably watched The Ten Commandments, another whitewashed, Zionist-produced film, one too many times.
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@everett in nj, when i was going to christian bookstores back in the 80’s, they kept the chick comics hidden up on a high shelf (they had those graphic novels then too) out of sight at one place, the proprietor said the catholic kids would come by and throw rocks at his window!
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@V8driver
You mean the Crusader series?
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@resw77
What’s wrong with the “Ten Commandments” movie with Charlton Heston? I don’t see anything wrong with that film There’s even a “Ten Commandments” series for kids they made back in 2003 or thereabouts. Here is the link:
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5ofBhXe9N4)
Tell me what you think after you watch. Trust me, it’s NOT “whitewashed”, as you claim. .
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@Everett F. Pomare
Don’t care.
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How’d I know he watched too much Ten Commandments?
@Everett Pomare
The problem is that it is a typical whitewashed Hollywood film. It inaccurately portrays the Egyptians and Kushites, as well as Moses and his wife. For example, they cast African Americans to play the Kushite royalty (inaccurately dressed–Kushite royalty actually dressed similar to Egyptians) but cast a white woman to play Moses’ wife even though the Bible says Moses married a Kushite:
Numbers 12: “And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Cushite woman whom he had married: for he had married a Cushite woman”
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@resw77
Numbers 12:1-9 (KJV)
Actually, it says that Moses married an Ethiopian woman. You are definitely correct about that, and I now see that there is finally something that be both can agree on for once!
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Num. 12:1-9 (KJV)
” And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.
2 And they said, Hath the Lord indeed spoken only by Moses? hath he not spoken also by us? And the Lord heard it.
3 (Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.)
4 And the Lord spake suddenly unto Moses, and unto Aaron, and unto Miriam, Come out ye three unto the tabernacle of the congregation. And they three came out.
5 And the Lord came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.
6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the Lord shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?
9 And the anger of the Lord was kindled against them; and he departed.”
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@Everett Pomare
FYI: The word “Cushite” is interchangeable with “Ethiopian” depending on which version of the Bible you use.
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The Bible says so.
If the Bible told you to go jump in front of a train would you do it? Just wondering.
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@Kiwi
No. I am not cherry picking. The Jews are indeed God’s chosen people. For you to say that is both bigoted and insane!
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Just a question: if Will Smith and his daughter Willow Smith would play Otto and Anne Frank (with all characters in the Secret Annex being African-American), would that make any waves in the USA?
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@Jeff
For me it would, considering we already know what Anne Frank looks like and could easily get a young Jewish girl to play her.
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How am i not surprised everett read the jack chick graphic novels, oh well i guess he’s toast
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@ sharinalr
Thanks.
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[…] Source: Hollywood whitewashing […]
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Excellent, revealing post. Now I want to read The Hunger Games.
Not nitpicking on the Jolie ancestral info; her late mother was of part North African descent (can’t recall at present whether the country is Morocco).True, that still doesn’t automaically make her Black, but that ties her to the Mother Continent. Just sayin’…
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In Spike Lee’s “Summer of Sam” (1999), the leading Italian characters all were played by non-Italians, Notably, Mira Sorvino (Greek) as Dionna and John Leguizamo (Puerto Rican) as Vinny. Son of Sam killer David Berkowitz, who was Jewish, was played by Michael Badalucco (Sicilian). I think this was a deliberate touch by Lee, but there are many possible takes on what the point of it was. Partially, at least, it had be because it just worked out that way. But I also think there was a little more to it than that. A commentary on the relationship between culture and descent, perhaps.
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Anonymike:
Mira Sorvino is of Italian descent.
That being said, I haaaaate when movies don’t get European ethnicities right, let alone languages. The number of “evil Russians” speaking Polish, Serbo-Croatian or whatever (and played by non-Russian actors) is astonishing.
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This is silly.
Are we all surprised that Hollywood is ‘whitewashing’?
Hollywood caters to a primarily white audience (read ‘people of European descent’).
That is how they make their money. Don’t be surprised if they cater to the prejudices of white people. (Remember the average person is pretty stupid, regardless of race).
The same happens in Bollywood, the same happens in Chinese films. Call it propaganda, call it whitewashing (Indian-washing, Chinese-washing).
Call it what you want but surely this is class 101 in the process of ethnogenesis?
White people want to appropriate history. Just like Washington DC is modeled on Roman and Ancient Greek architecture (Americans want to appropriate European antiquity), just like the Chinese claim they have a 5,000 year history (more like 4,000), just like the Greeks claim they ‘invented’ civilization (yeah right).
White audiences like to see themselves in films because they like to relate to the actors. ‘Oh, Angelina Jolie is so beautiful, I have blue eyes just like her’ etc.
We black people make up only 15% of the American population, who are we kidding?
Shouldn’t we just boycott Hollywood? Nigerian films are getting a lot better (although I really dislike the term Nollywood).
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Just watched the Gods of Egypt trailer and it looked like a sequel of the movie Thor set in a mystical Egypt located somewhere in the Nordic Lands. The only black man there seems to be a weak god who hides behind a table while muscular white Egyptian gods fight like men. Pathetic
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@Mira
I notice that different ethnicities in Europe have different looks but the “white brush” means that any ethnicity can be played in a movie by any actor who identifies as white.
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@ villagewriter
Notice that English actors can play Americans, even those who are not White.
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Hollywood whitewashing is Aryanist: people of northern European descent are presented as being dominant not just over the past 300 or so years, but for all of history.
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‘Tis but propaganda, abagond.
All Empires employ propaganda as a marketing tool.
Regardless, I fully agree. Alexander the Great having blonde hair was one of the biggest jokes ever played on the American public.
Jesus has blue eyes, Cleopatra was a white woman etc.
For the majority of history, northern Europeans were nothing short of barbarians. Even the exploits of the Vikings are being exaggerated.
But northern Europeans now sit on the Iron Throne and who are we to question what they sell us?
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@ Somali Prince
Of course we should question it. Left unchallenged it will brainwash us and others. As it has.
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“Mira” Upon further review, Mira Sorvino is of Italian descent. If we had to check all of our facts, there would be no online forums. On a conservative website, someone disputed that Lyndon Johnson had served in the U.S. House during the New Deal era. He was elected to Congress in April 1937 in a special election running on a pro-New Deal platform. He served there until he took his Senate seat in January 1949.
Racial and ethnic casting is a big issue. Some years ago, I wrote a one-hour play featuring a Shakespearean treatment of the character of Babe Ruth. Knowing that many theatrical companies practice non-racial casting, I had to consider the question of a black actor playing the character. I finally concluded that, in my treatment at least, the Babe, the name “Ruth” never entered, essentially was a costume character dressed the idiosyncratic male clothing of the era. So there would be no problem with a black actor playing him.
In my treatment of the Babe Ruth character, he was drawn as moralistic, wise in a fatalistic way, and articulate and reasoned in his language in the manner of his background. He took advantage of his opportunities, you might say, and loved excess, but he was a better man that he has been made out to be. He deserves to portrayed as something better than a fat f***, a simpleton and a buffoon. I suspect my treatment of him is closer to the truth than most people know.
In my play, the male leads are a the Babe, a German-American ballplayer based on Lou Gehrig and an anti-Nazi eccentric German emigre medical doctor.
Speaking of ethnic misdirection, many people, I am sure, believe that Babe Ruth was Irish. He was not. He was of German descent.
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@Kiwi
“Hollywood is sustained mostly by non-White dollars.”
I was under the impression that Hollywood was sustained mostly by White dollars.
@abagond @Kiwi
When i said:
“But northern Europeans now sit on the Iron Throne and who are we to question what they sell us?”
I infused a certain amount of sarcasm that I perhaps should have made more explicit.
Regardless, I think the answer is not to purchase.
But again, I enjoy Hollywood films. I accept the whitewashing just as I accept the Empire.
Certainly, awareness helps, but after awareness comes indifference and acceptance.
Sigmund Freud, who wrote extensively about phallic objects, was once asked why he smoked a cigar, he replied ‘sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.’
Similarly, ‘sometimes, a good film is just a good film’.
Whatever other criticism you may lay at its door, it has to be said that Hollywood produces the best films out there.
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@Somali prince
Is that guy on your profile picture still the President of Somalia?
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@Kiwi
Interesting. It would be really interesting to see a breakdown of Hollywood receipts by race.
That being said, the European Union has a population of 508,191,116 (Wikipedia). I will throw out a conservative estimate that 80% are white. The USA has a population of 322,014,853 with 77.4% white (Wikipedia).
If White Americans make up barely half in the US but represent 77.4%, who makes up the rest?
As for overseas sales, the EU is a pretty large market and that’s approx. 400 million white people (conservative estimate).
China has an embargo on non-Chinese films, so they can’t represent that large a market (and their purchasing power is pretty small, the exchange rate is about 0.1 RMB to the Pound).
In India, Americans films face stiff competition from Bollywood.
Latin America has around 31% white people (Wikipedia), so that’s another 180 million people.
Add in Canada, Australia and New Zealand (mainly White).
Weight in their respective purchasing powers compared to the rest.
And that’s a lot of White money.
Guys, let’s face it. There are too many white people and they have too much money.
These numbers are hurting my head.
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///Shouldn’t we just boycott Hollywood? Nigerian films are getting a lot better (although I really dislike the term Nollywood).///
What about the Korean ones? Mainstream Korean movies seem to be very good, I heard.
See also for some Korean gems of last year:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3541262/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2972482/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3697626/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3303728/
The movie-world is bigger than Hollywood alone. Take a profit from that.
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@Jeff Elberfeld
Yup, the movie-world is bigger than Hollywood alone.
Fully agree with that.
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http://www.theguardian.com/file/2015/nov/13/gods-of-egypt-posters-anger-whitewashed-cast-twitter-exodus
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No secret that Hollywood loves to whitewash. LA can be cutthroat for non-white actors and actresses.
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@Somaliprice
US white population is closer to 60%. Most Americans don’t consider many North Africans, Arabs, mestizo Central Americans to be white, but the Census does. Besides, I don’t know of any proof that most white Americans want historical references to non-white characters in movies to be whitewashed.
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A note on Katniss Everdeen. She is white. Literary cultural appropriation is an annoying tactic used by Liberal white authors to make a character more relatable to a wider audience. Ann Rice utilized it recently in her wereworlf series. It usually means ascribing “ethnically ambiguous” features to white characters/people, while maintaining the whiteness of these characters. Exhibit A. In Vogue, they described Gisele Bundchen (a visibly white German Brazilian) as tanned, golden skinned, exotic. In other words, they took traits associated with mixed race Brazilians (whom they NEVER feature) and give them to visible white models.
Suzanne Collins could NOT make Katniss non-white, and so she made her ambiguous, while making her mother and sister pale-skinned with blonde hair and blue eyes. She never confirmed if Katniss was mixed race or not.
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They look like rejects from Gladiator.
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@resw77
White people like to think that their civilization emanates from Antiquity (Greece and Rome), which itself emanates from Ancient Egypt.
In these fictionalised barely-historical tales of the beginnings of White civilization, White people like to think that their White ancestors ruled these places.
Obviously, this is completely untrue. Greeks may have looked more Arab than anything else.
Look at 300, for example. The film obviously appealed to the modern White American gym enthusiast who peels his chest.
The real 300 were probably hairy-chested brutes.
But if you are marketing a movie, it is the easiest way to do it. Plant loads of White people in the film. It is bound to appeal to the White dollar.
Let’s not forget that capitalism is ruled by marketing. These films are marketed in a very specific way to appeal to a very specific audience.
A lot of money goes into these films. If it was more profitable to create a true historial portrayal, it would be done.
But it isn’t.
So instead we get a white-washed watered down version.
I am just following Occam’s razor.
Or more simply:
‘Follow the money’.
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@ Mel
They used the same White-not-White truck with David Carradine in “Kung Fu”: because he was a White actor he could act outside the stereotypes about Asian males without it seeming strange – and without undermining said stereotypes.
Hollywood uses the excuse that White actors are a bigger draw, but in this case they passed up Bruce Lee for David Carradine.
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@ somaliprince
“A lot of money goes into these films. If it was more profitable to create a true historial portrayal, it would be done. ”
If it is just about the money, then why cast David Carradine as the star of “Kung Fu” instead of Bruce Lee?
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“Jess” Hollywood is cutthroat? Darn, no one ever knew until just now.
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@Abagond
Was David Carradine white?
Presumably because audiences preferred to see a white man than an asian man?
I am saying that average audiences are racially prejudiced. You are arguing that film producers are racially prejudiced.
For me, it all amounts to the same thing.
Adele is white, she has appropriated black music, is she more successfull than black people because her company made it so?
Or is it because the ‘heartbroken young white woman’ trope is very appealing to a specific demographic?
It is a numbers game, unfortunately.
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@Abagond
I see your point now. Perhaps they used the good old ‘Elvis Presley’ tactic.
Bruce Lee had tapped into a succesful market as the predecessors to Elvis Presely had.
White people presumably thought they could make Bruce Lee’s formula even more profitable by whitewashing it further.
Just as had been done with Elvis Presley (and Eminem, for that matter).
Didn’t Steven Seagal do the same thing?
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@Abagond
Looks like Bruce Lee recognised this himself:
Hong Kong film-goers prefer to see an Asian lead man.
Chow Yun-fat was a massive massive actor in HK, would he have been as successful had he been white?
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Somaliprince Said,
“Hong Kong film-goers prefer to see an Asian lead man.”
Is that true? I’m not so sure. My understanding is that American films do quite well over seas.
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@MJB
I’m not from Hong Kong so I am not really positioned to say what they prefer.
I am just quoting directly from Bruce Lee, who, you would agree, is better positioned to speak on the matter than I am.
Bruce Lee said:
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Bruce Lee was referring to the example Abagond used himself:
Why he wasn’t picked to star in ‘Kung Fu’.
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@Kiwi
Your comment would annoy a lot of Chinese people.
You basically display a Euro-centric, or even American-centric, attitude yourself.
The majority of China is still 99% ethnically homogenous. English is not at all widely spoken.
The Chinese have their own TV shows and their own blockbusters.
All these shows and blockbusters are 99.9% Han Chinese.
I spent hours and hours watching these shows in order to improve my Mandarin.
You practically never see a white person.
This is basically wrong. White people star in films made by white people where English is spoken, not in Chinese films made by Chinese people where Mandarin is spoken.
How would you find enough White people able to speak Mandarin in the first place?
A White person able to speak fluent Mandarin is a claim-to-fame in itself.
I can list you dozens and dozens of the most popular TV shows and films in China and they are ALL completely ethnically homogenous.
Again, American people are so stuck in their own world, they don’t really know what is going on beyond it.
The Chinese have their own celebrities, their own films and their own TV shows.
The idea that the whole of China is completely fixated on the ‘Amazing White People’ is annoying.
In fact the obssession that EVERYONE on this blog seems to have with White people is annoying.
They say the opposite to love isn’t hatred, it is indifference.
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The reason American films do very well around the world is the same reason French wine sells better than any other wine.
The French are very good at making wine. The Americans are very good at making films. They have been getting good practice at it for a century or more.
If you took a film like Jurassic Park, took out all the white actors and replaced them with the most famous Chinese actors, the film would do even better in China.
If you took a TV show like Game of Thrones and replaced all the white people with asian people, the show would be a massive hit in China.
The problem is, China’s film and TV industry is not as well developed as America’s.
A lot of the Chinese TV shows follow a pretty simple formula and can get quite boring.
American films are not popular because they have loads of white people, they are popular because, admit it or not, they are very well crafted.
But obviously, you’re not going to admit this, you’re going to say that American films are popular because Chinese people just love white people.
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@Kiwi
Enough with saying I am ‘deflecting’ or moving ‘goalposts’.
Can we please not turn this into one of those discussions.
If I addressed every single one of your points, my post would be 2 pages long and no one would read it.
I would end up writing a ‘Jefe’ post. You didn’t address every one of my points, do I whine about it?
I was actually going to send you that link myself, but I thought 2 posts was enough.
It is a known FACT that Chinese people are not receptive to black actors.
I know this myself. I lived in China and was educated in the UK from the age of 12.
I speak fluent English, yet I was passed up for English teaching jobs ahead of French people and Italian people who had a lower level of English.
Why? Because they were white and I am black.
When I was teaching in China, one of the things I heard the most was:
‘You’re not bad for a black guy’
And when it came to discussing films, one of the things I heard over and over was:
‘Even though Will Smith is black, I quite like him’
Why would a poster that puts a black guy on the front cover all around the world suddenly minimise his presence in China?
Is it because they know the Chinese audiences are racist and don’t want to threaten their revenue?
But I suppose you would argue that the Chinese are racist because of white people?
You would also argue that the Chinese like pale skin because of white people?
The Chinese had a preference for pale skin long before White people arrived and the Chinese looked down on the darker races of the south long before White people arrived.
And the reason why the black guy was minimised on that advertising picture was for one reason:
Money.
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No you haven’t. At best, you will get a mixed race Asian person. Watch 爱情公寓 (the Chinese version of Friends), watch 裸婚时代 (luohun shidai), watch 离婚律师 (divorce lawyer), watch 我们结婚吧 (let’s get married), and point out a SINGLE white person, or black person for that matter.
White people usually appear when they are advertising a Western product. An advert for French wine will have a white person. An advert for a German car might have a German person. An advert for high-end fashion might have an Italian person.
That is because those countries are associated with high quality products, the branding makes more money.
Whites are barely existent in Chinese-made films and TV shows. The Japanese are the main ethnicities that appears outside of the Han and they are usually depicted as being evil invaders.
I didn’t answer this point because I have no idea what yellowface is, can you give an example?
The only time I have seen white people in Chinese media is usually when they fill up a one-dimensional ‘laowai’ stereotype. i.e. a rich, stupid and old German husband who can’t speak Chinese.
Does that count as ‘whiteface’?
You are arguing in my favour. White people are associated with good products, the ‘branding’ makes more money.
Of course it is psychological. German cars might not be the ‘best’ cars but people think they are, which is why they purchase more of them.
So again, it comes down to money.
You think the Germans didn’t have to spend money to market their cars as being the best?
You don’t think Coca Cola has to spend a lot of money to plaster its adverts all around the world?
You think people eat McDonalds because it tastes good or because McDonalds has a massive marketing budget?
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I am behind the comment thread here, but here it goes
@Somali Prince,
I am not sure if I should dare add in my 2 cents, but I have been watching both HK produced and US produced films for over 40 years, all the way back to Bruce Lee and the Kung Fu TV series. And I DO live in HK and travel often to China – been to dozens of cities in China, as well as Taiwan and SE Asia.
There are some things I agree with you and some that I disagree with.
* Casting of main character in “Kung Fu” and the issue of a “non-American” in an American hero role v. casting a non-Chinese in a Chinese hero role
I agree with
I disagree that they have to be a full Asian to star in a HK produced movie.
Regarding the quote from Bruce Lee, he was a native US-born person (ie, native born American) with a European grandfather playing the role of a Eurasian raised in China. He was already familiar to US audiences from the Green Hornet and was just simultaneously emerging from a couple of Kung Fu films that were a big hit in the USA. He should have been ideally perfect for the role.
But producers thought otherwise and went with a less well known white actor (although he had a very famous actor father John Carradine). .
Michael Wong (Russell Wong’s younger brother) is a NY-born Eurasian who went to Hong Kong and became one of the most recognized local actors from the late 1980s to early 2000s. He played ABC roles or roles that were mixed race characters and western educated. Locals always ribbed him for his white blood and less than fluent Cantonese, calling him “gwei lo”, the Cantonese slang for white people. Yet, he still was very popular, playing macho hero roles and there was a niche for him in the local HK movie industry.
Why can a US-born Eurasian make it in the HK movie industry, but not in Hollywood? (unless he can get away with playing non-Asian roles like Keanu Reeves). I have my own thoughts about it, but basically it centers around Hollywood being unabashedly racist.
* Chinese prefer to watch Chinese actors speaking Chinese.
Largely agree. I also think Kiwi’s assertion is wrong. There is a limited number of Mandarin speaking white people who do show up in Chinese TV and film, but I don’t think they specifically add them to most productions to boost their appeal to Chinese audiences. Some of the more famous ones do appear, but only because there are only a handful of white people who can speak fluent Chinese.
I can say a similar thing about Hong Kong. The same 4-5 Cantonese-speaking white actors appear in roles in HK films. They rarely are, if ever the star (except for a couple of Eurasians). In the 1970s, they would have dubbed their voices, but of course it is better to find real people speaking with their own voice.
Kiwi is DEAD wrong about this:
China used whiteface for years 1950s-1980s, with Chinese actors playing white people with dialogue in Mandarin. You see it less now as there are now more mandarin speaking white people in China.
(http://asiaobscura.com/2011/11/prosthetic-noses-red-wigs-and-whiteface-american-characters-in-chinese-films.html)
I have seen Chinese actors in HK doing whiteface on local TV shows.
You will see a few white people on ads in China using white actors (sometimes even blacks) to sell a Chinese product, perhaps to give it some cosmopolitan appeal, but it is not the norm. In SE Asia, they tend to prefer to use Eurasian faces in ads to promote certain products that want a pan-Asian cosmopolitan image. They are Asian enough for locals to accept them as localish, at the same time, somehow foreign.
Having white actors in the Hollywood roles does not make it sell better in China. In fact, so many of the films marketed in mainland China are scrambling to add token Mainland Chinese faces with dialogue in Mandarin just to market its appeal to Chinese audiences. However, in my mind, they are still messing it up as they still have to keep the stereotypes that appeal to white audiences as well. It is typical to have a white male in the main role and a Chinese woman in the lead supporting role.
Case in point: Blackhat (2014)
The American hero role is played by an Australian, whereas most of the American actors, including all the native US-born Asian American male actors, play foreign Asian men with no love life and who all get killed, leaving the white man taking away the Asian woman as his romantic prize for his heroic bravery.
I am sick and tired of seeing foreigners cast as Americans (presumably because they are white) and seeing Americans playing foreigners (presumably because they are not white).
There is some truth to that.
Chinese (in the mainland) movies have very tiring, maudlin themes, or they are second rate KNOCKOFFS of American TV and movies replaced with Chinese faces. Most are boring.
I bemoan the HK film industry – once one of the best, now in the doldrums, and being taken over by mainland interests.
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@Kiwi,
Cannot fully agree with either of these.
Sorry, on this case, I will have to agree with Somali Prince that you have not watched that much Chinese media. There is some of what you say, but not that much.
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Again, @Jefe, thank you for your contribution/
I lived in mainland China, you lived in Hong Kong but I think we more or less made the same observations.
I get tired of this perception by Americans (I thought it was usually white people, but it appears Kiwi has fallen for it too) that the Chinese ‘prefer’ to see white people in their films, and that they want to look ‘white’.
As if the Chinese didn’t have national pride and were completely whitewashed as a culture.
Exactly, which goes back to my initial point.
The point that Abagond and Kiwi, pedantic as they can be, tried to argue with.
Audiences like to see their own faces reflected back at them.
Eminem is the most successfull rapper of all time because he is white. White audiences can relate to him. Not because Dr. Dre is racist.
Iggy Azalea is successfull not because T.I. is racist but because she is white and white girls relate to her.
Same for Adele.
The reason Hollywood films are whitewashed is because audiences prefer to see their own image reflected back at them.
Girls love being told they look like a famous actress. Tell a white girl she looks like Angelina Jolie and see the effect it has on her.
Tell a white guy he looks like Brad Pitt and see how he beams.
Tell an Asian girl she looks like Shu Qi and see how delighted she will be.
Tell a Nigerian girl she looks like Genevieve Nnaji and see the effect it has on her.
Tell an Indian girl she looks like Chitrangada Singh and see the effect it has on her.
Occam’s razor: the argument that depends on the fewest assumptions is the one that is probably correct.
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@Jefe
Yes I do too. My favourite actor, aside from Denzel Washington, is Chow Yun-Fat.
That scene in ‘A Better Tomorrow’ where he hides his guns in the flower pots remains my favourite scene.
But my favourite film of all time, without doubt, is Infernal Affairs.
The Departed was an example of the ‘Elvis Presley’ formula.
White people took Infernal Affairs and whitewashed it to make it more palatable to White audiences.
What happened?
The Departed won an oscar.
How come Infernal Affairs (a superior film) didn’t win an oscar?
Because white audiences prefer a film with Irish gangsters than a film with an Asian gangsters.
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Also it works the other way round.
One of the best HK tv shows is 上海滩 (Shanghai Tan) starring Chow Yun-Fat.
The format largely borrowed from the Godfather.
Were there any white people in 上海滩?
No.
The Chinese have been Chinese-washing for decades.
Just as the whites have been doing, just as everyone has been doing.
上海滩 was an enormous success in the Chinese world. It turned Chow Yun-Fat into an enormous superstar.
And there were no white people invovled.
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Wait? Infernal Affairs is the same as The Departed? I’d seen them so far apart that I didn’t even realize any similarities. I guess I’ll be watching IF this morning.
@ Somoliprince – I think your Occam’s Razor point is one that should be taken by many. Some get so caught up in appearing erudite that they miss the larger point(s) being made.
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@Uglyblackjohn
I first saw IF too, but only a few years before The Departed.
The Departed is a good film but it was such a shameless ripoff, I was disappointed.
I also didn’t like the way they merged the two main female characters into one.
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@SP,
It seems like you cherry picked a few things I said, but chose not to pay attention to the others. But one thing we can agree on — Kiwi has not seen as many Chinese film and TV shows as he imagines, so I am not sure where he gets his information. In HK, we have over a dozen channels showing mainland Chinese stuff all day long. Having said that, I only watch that at most 10% of the time as I think most of it is boring. I am making a trip to Shenzhen again this week, so maybe I will tune into something again.
For example, I largely don’t agree with what you said about Kung Fu and Bruce Lee.
I also don’t think one should compare the US TV and movies to Chinese ones as reflective of society, as ….
– I never think of the US as a white country (but a multiracial, multiethnic one), one built on the blood, sweat and tears of millions of POC. I think of Hollywood as being white, the government as being white, corporate America as being white, but not the country itself. As such, I think TV and movies in the USA do not reflect the USA at all.
China is not 100% Han either. I watched a mainland Chinese drama 2 weeks ago which was almost entirely a Uyghur cast (speaking in Mandarin of course). I was watching just to see how they depict Uyghurs. It is difficult for me to know exactly, as I had no choice but to speak Mandarin to the Uyghurs I met in person, so it is hard to know how they feel.
There are not really that many white people in China, and you don’t seem them portrayed much in the media either.
– In addition to not being just a white country, the market for US media extends way beyond its borders. Kiwi was partially right that for some media productions, the audience is mostly not white. So I must also ask why Hollywood must whitewash its stories, and portray POC roles as cardboard characters using cliched stereotypes? The example I gave above (Blackhat) — the producer complained that it flopped in Taiwan, but they should have given Leehom Wang a sexy, romantic role – he is more popular and well known in Asia than Chris Hemsworth. He should have gotten the girl, not just Chris Hemsworth. And maybe the girl could have been white or black.
So, I must say that Kiwi is partially correct to assert that Hollywood producers cannot use the excuse of whitewashing Hollywood in order to pander to a white audience. The argument looks silly.
Thanks for pointing out that “The Departed” is a Hollywood whitewash of “Infernal Affairs” and that the latter is the superior film (a HK film, not a mainland Chinese one, thank goodness), but Mainland Chinese “sino-wash” Hollywood stuff all the time, ie, take a white story and replace it with Chinese faces and Mandarin dialogue.
I don’t like Shu Qi, so I would never say that. 😛
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@Jefe
You disappoint me, how can you not like Shu Qi?
Just kidding, I just remember how obsessed a lot of my students used to be with her.
Yes, I suppose the argument boils down to whether America is classed as a white country and China as a Han country.
And you are right about the ‘sino-wash’ thing.
For instance, I actually really liked Infernal Affairs 2, but I couldn’t help but notice that a lot of it was influenced by the Godfather.
So I suppose it goes both ways.
The Chinese have their own version of ‘Friends’. It is the exact same thing, except with Asian people.
That being said, I think people give Hollywood too much credit.
We only hear about the films that are successful, but the majority of films created in the United States hardly make any money at all.
The world over, film writers, extras, directors and producers hardly make any money at all.
Most writers pander to the forces of the market, not to a bunch of evil Zionist guys in a room.
50 Shades of Grey was made into a film, not because Hollywood decided to but because there is a massive market of middle class white women who are into that stuff.
The only problem with saying ‘Hollywood producers’ is that it is begins to sounds like those conspiracy theorists who say: ‘they are controlling the world’.
Who is ‘they’? What do you mean by ‘they’?
It kind of sounds like you are referring to some malevolent force, hiding in the background, that is purposefully plotting these Hollywood films.
Just like ‘Lord of Mirkwood’ when he goes on about the capitalist elite.
It just sounds a bit bonkers.
The reason Hollywood still appears ‘white’ in my mind, is because white audiences still represent a majority of the demographic and have a higher purchasing power.
This is changing over time.
I know that it sounds controversial but I just don’t like conspiracy theories.
And the explanation:
‘Because these Evil Zionists hate us!’
just doesn’t cut it for me.
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@Jefe
I said the same thing to Kiwi, I make a lot of points that not everyone responds to. You made a lot of points and I couldn’t respond to each one.
I didn’t accuse you of cherry-picking so I don’t think you should do it yoursef.
I am trying to stay on-topic.
The basic argument is whether Hollywood is driven by racism or by market forces.
I agree that Hollywood is probably racist but I don’t think that would stop them making a black film if it was profitable.
I didn’t address your point about Bruce Lee because Bruce Lee made the same point I am making, so I thought the issue was settled.
Why don’t Eurasian actors make it as big in Hollywood?
I presume it is because they aren’t as popular.
A point to remember here is that it also comes down to preference.
Jay Chou is a massive star in Asia but barely anyone noticed him in the Green Hornet.
When white women become obsessed with Brad Pitt but not Jay Chou are they just expressing a preference? or are they discriminating against Asian men?
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*Gives Somaliprince and Jefe the side eye*
Are we forgetting Michelle Yeoh?
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@Sharina
How can I forget MIchelle Yeoh.
But most importantly, how can I forget ‘Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon’, one of the best films ever made.
Michelle Yeoh is probably one of the most beautiful women of all time, of any race.
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@ Somali Prince
This is way too simple. It does not account for why US film and television is markedly Whiter than the US itself is:
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After my wife, of course.
(and Genevieve Nnaji)
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@Abagond
Your post is good and I don’t necessarily dispute it.
But what you have done is called ‘data mining bias’.
To get a real representation of what you are arguing, you would have to include shows that were not successful.
Since you do not think that success is a criteria for how these shows are constructed, you would have to look at all the other shows produced by different networks in America that were not as successful and see their racial make up.
Did you consider less mainstream shows that appealed to a specific audience?
What if there were ethnically diverse shows that never got picked up, or that were produced, but never got high ratings?
A very very good example of this is The Wire.
(one of the best shows of all time).
The Wire had, I think, more black actors than white actors, but it was never a mainstream show. It has only really gained a cult following in later years.
The Wire was nearly cancelled a few times and had a very low budget.
If The Wire had been cancelled, or never made because of a lack of funds, it wouldn’t show up in an analysis like yours.
That doesn’t mean that there were people out there who didn’t want to make the show because it was ‘too black’ but that they simply couldn’t get enough funds to make it.
Someone on that post you linked actualy made the same point:
In other words, white people, generally, are racially prejudiced.
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@SP,
I don’t think Hollywood Zionists are evil or a conspiracy, just out of touch. But as long as they make money most of the time, there is not much they will change until they start losing more money. In the meantime, expect more rewritten narratives and whitewashing. We don’t have to spend money on Hollywood if we don’t like it, right?
Maybe we should ask. When Americans (and I mean blacks, Asians,Latinos, as well as whites) think about China, do only the Han come to mind? How much do black Americans think about the plight of the Uighur? Do they expect non-Americans to think much about “Black” in America?
I just said that I did not agree with it.
Some do, like Keanu Reeves. They just have to be able to cross over to do non-ethnic (ie, white) roles or other non-Asian roles (like Lou Diamond Phillips). Russell Wong got locked into stereotyped roles after he did his initial stints in HK in the 1980s.
Maggie Q is another to go to Asia first, and come back to Hollywood, but playing only Asian roles. Even Russell Wong went back to Asia to Singapore to do a TV series a couple years ago.
Do you liken it to the recognition that Bruce Lee got after the Green Hornet in the 60s?
Better not go there. That’s a whole other topic in itself.
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@Jefe
Yes that is largely my point. Film industries like Nollywood are desperate for viewers. If more people watched Nollywood films, the production budgets would increase and the films would get better.
I think a lot of ABCs have sussed out that Hollywood is not receptive to them and have moved to Taiwan or Hong Kong as a result.
Monga is a good example of this. It is a pretty good Taiwanese gangster film with actors like Mark Chao (a very good actor – he’s Canadian-Asian) and Rhydian Vaughan (not a very good actor – he’s British-Asian).
Infernal Affairs II also starred Edison ‘laptop’ Chen, who was raised in Canada.
Eason Chan (one of the top selling Asian artists) was raised in the UK.
Yes I think a lot of Chinese have a misconception that America is largely White in the same way than China is largely Han.
Not really. He was typecast as the Asian character. I think Keanu Reeves’ success is largely attributable to the fact he looks ‘white’.
Jay Chou gets a lot of hate, but I actually think he’s talented.
Overall, I think we largely agree that the American public is racially prejudiced.
And this is reflected in the films they watch.
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Michelle Yeoh IS one of the , most beautiful women alive – not the prettiest but she just comes across as calm and strong.
For a while it seemed like Hollywood was just taking every successful Asian horror film and remaking it with an American cast.
The remake of ‘Oldboy’ was an insult to the original trilogy.
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@somaliprince
“White people like to think that their civilization emanates from Antiquity (Greece and Rome), which itself emanates from Ancient Egypt”
That’s because over the last century and a half there’s been an well organised program put in place by western historians and the media to indoctrinate westerners, not just whites, to think that way for purposes of maintaining white supremacy.
It didn’t start with movies and TV. It started in school before the advent of motion pictures.
“But if you are marketing a movie, it is the easiest way to do it. Plant loads of White people in the film. It is bound to appeal to the White dollar.”
You act as if there’s an alternative. The masses are going to eat up whatever the media serves them. If a top Hollywood producer released a more historically accurate version of Exodus: Gods and Kings, I don’t think gross takings would have been significantly different.
The reason they don’t make more historically accurate representations in Hollywood has more to do with taking part in the white supremacist paradigm. Hollywood has no problems accurately portraying certain historical figures, as long as they’re in certain roles.
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@Everyone
resw77’s post is exactly the kind of mentality I have been trying to guard against.
He doesn’t know the first thing about anything yet claims to have all the answers.
And which historians are these? Left wing historians or right wing historians?
Revisionist historians or orthodox historians?
Do you even know what it takes to get an academic paper published?
And these historians are working together with the media?
And they have a program?
Could you provide me with any sources to back up your claims?
What program is this? When do the meetings take place?
I would like to attend.
I presume the meetings occur in a freemason lodge?
I presume they are part of the Illuminati as well and that the number one thing on their agenda is: ‘We must whitewash Hollywood’.
Did you even read what I wrote? What you just did is called data selection bias.
You are only looking at certain films in a sample, not ALL the films in the sample.
Do you not know that thousands and thousands of films each year fail to make money?
Do you know people lose their jobs if a film doesn’t make money?
If an audience doesn’t like a film, they don’t buy tickets. If they don’t buy tickets, the film loses money and people lose their jobs.
I like how you dropped the word ‘paradigm’ to sound intelligent. So if you want to make a film in Hollywood, you have to join the ‘white supremacist paradigm’?
How do people suscribe? White supermacists don’t like Jewish people. A lot of people in Hollywood are Jewish, how do they make films?
The one truth you have not considered is the following:
There is nothing stopping you from making a film if you want to.
If you have enough money, you can make a film about anything you want, but would you spend millions and millions of dollars making a film if no one is actually going to pay to see it?
In your eyes, if American Sniper had portrayed Chris Kyle as exactly what he was, a murderous racist psychopath, the film would have made as much money?
Do you really think American Sniper would have made as much money if the Iraq War had not been whitewashed?
Sorry to go hard on you, but you walked into that.
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@Uglyblackjohn
The remake to ‘Oldboy’ was awful, I couldn’t watch more than 30 minutes.
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somaliprince
Instead of discussing it with everyone. Perhaps you should do so with resw77. Everyone knows something. I would not be so quick to dismiss him as knowing nothing.
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Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon was a great film and still is to this day. Was it not one that played in t American theaters in the original language?
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@Sharina
I havn’t had the pleasure of interacting with resw77 yet, so I don’t know if he’s a youtube-historian troll or someone who can back up his claims.
Maybe he’ll prove me wrong.
Yes, ‘Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon’ was one of the few films to breakthrough into Hollywood.
It made 213.5 million on a budget of 17 million (I wonder why the White-Supermacist-Zionist-Illuminati lobby let that happen, maybe they were caught napping, they must have been on holiday that weekend).
The reason why it was successful is pretty clear: It is an extremely well-crafted film that isn’t overly complex.
The acting, the production, the music, the fight sequences, are all on a Hollywood standard if not higher.
It has some of the most spectacular fighting sequences ever shot, such as this one: (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhCHw0Ovqf4)
Infernal Affairs might have been a bit too complicated for a general audience.
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@LoM
Glad we agree. I also think the problem with American politics is big money. Just as America has become more ethnically diverse, the Republicans have ensured they retain control by introducing things like ‘Super PACs’.
But I know that this discussion is going to veer of into ‘the capitalist elite’ domain and I wouldn’t want to go off-topic.
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@SP
What Resw77 is refering to is the white centric construct Hollywood views the world through. It’s not a conspiracy it just how it is.
Hollywood has less of a monopoly on film making today then it did ten years ago. It’s likely that in the future when films are released people will just order them directly from their phones or internet. The number of people attending movie theaters drops each year.
In the old days it took grips buildimg sets and specialty actors jumping off of buildings to do stunts. Not anymore. All the special effects are done with soft wear. It’s grafic technology in gaming that’s driving technology and it will get to the point where anybody wil be able to make a movie and market it on line.
As demographics change, technology increases and becomes cheaper, Hollywood will become less and less relevant.
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@MJB
I thought I was the one arguing that it is just the way it is. As it is in many other countries.
resw77’s statement:
Does sound very Conspiracy Theory-ish.
But that’s off-topic.
Yes and even then, I doubt these new films won’t have the same racial prejudices.
When all films are made on youtube, will people still talk of conspiracy theories?
Some of the most watched youtube prank videos are ‘In the hood’ pranks, where white boys pull tricks on black guys.
There are no producers, no zionists, no all-seeing-eye, just a bunch of racist white kids. The same white kids who buy Hollywood film tickets.
Growing up in Somalia, we had preachers of the Boko-Haram variety who told us we couldn’t watch Disney films because the White Man had inserted specific Devil-Worshipping subliminal messages into them…
They were just children films..
Disney nearly went bankrupt before the Little Mermaid came along, they were more worried about making money than brainwashing the young people of the world.
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@ Somali Prince
No one is saying it is a conspiracy theory. That is YOUR straw man. Racism does not work like that.
You are sounding like those Anything-But-Racism Whites.
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“Yes and even then, I doubt these new films won’t have the same racial prejudices.”
Exactly. Independent film makers will be viewing the world through their own unique lens. Some films might have the same prejudices but ultimately it would be the market that determines content.
Within the Western world historians view history through a white centric lens. They release works that then get reviewed by their peers which reaffirms their view of the world. That’s how I see it. I don’t necessarily believe that it is a conscious choice to perpetuate white supremacy. It is just their social construct. The winners write the history through rose colored glasses.
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@MJB
I like how you have co-opted my argument.
I thought I was the one arguing that Hollywood was governed by market forces and that white racism happens subconsciouly?
Did you just pull the good old Bill Clinton ‘triangulation’ trick on me?
resw77 argued that it happened consciously, with a well drawn out ‘program’.
(Like white people even think about black people that much. When the murder of a black teen comes on the news, whites just flick the channel).
I have just written 20 pages on why Hollywood is determined by the subconscious racism of white people and suddenly, according to Abagond, I am on the side of the apologists?
Well played, sir.
Well played.
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@ Somali Prince
You are a huge White apologist. At every turn, the White elites are helpless innocents whose actions are determined by forces beyond their control. The poor things! *sniff*
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@somaliprince
“Sorry to go hard on you, but you walked into that”
You could’ve fooled me. All you did was retort with some unfounded claims and questions, many of which were irrelevant and/or asinine.
“And which historians are these? ”
Most historians at western academic institutions.
“Left wing historians or right wing historians?”
LOL! I didn’t know history had political wings.
“Do you even know what it takes to get an academic paper published”
Yes. A signed contract with a private publisher. If you’re referring to publishing in an academic journal, it only requires peer review of a biased author and the blessing of the biased editor. Not any objective set of standards.
“And these historians are working together with the media”
Just because people or institutions are working to further the interests of white supremacy, does not mean they are working “together’ however that word is construed, e.g., Red Cross and Doctors without Borders are both working to further similar interests, but not necessarily in a concerted effort. Get it now?
“What you just did is called data selection bias”
No what I did was provide an example. Feel free to try to disprove any statement I made.
“Could you provide me with any sources to back up your claims”
Yes. In acadaemia:
– Aside from the countless “academic” publications that use philosophy and pseudo-science to support white supremacy, e.g., by Arthur Schopenhauer, Madison Grant, Voltaire, etc.
– The numerous “academic” publications that analyse white supremacy in addition to the Critical Race Theory, such as Frances Lee Ansley and Charles Mills.
In law and society:
– race-based slavery
– Naturalization Act of 1790
– legal segregation in US gov’t and in society due to state laws
– “Jim Crow” laws
– disparity among blacks in getting tougher sentences for same crimes as whites
– disparity among blacks in getting loans, jobs, etc. compared to their less qualified white counterparts
And in Hollywood:
– Use of whites in blackface in Hollywood to portray blacks.
– The facts Abagond mentions in this article about the many films that inaccurately depict historical accounts, in which whites play roles of non-whites
– Studies like the USC’s Annenberg School For Communication & Journalism that non-whites are underrepresented in Hollywood
“I like how you dropped the word ‘paradigm’ to sound intelligent.”
It’s just a word. Sorry it went over your head.
“resw77 argued that it happened consciously, with a well drawn out ‘program’.”
Let’s not fabricate things. I said it’s a program, I said nothing about whether whites were behaving “consciously” or “subsciously”
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@ SP.
I agree with your economic assements not just on this thread but others. We undestand markets in the same way.
It’s unclear to me what Resw77 meant by his statement. I gave a possible interpetation. Your aproach to Resw77 was a strawman though.
I don’t believe in conspiracies either and i don’t recall posters on this blog ever promoting them. Social media is full of lots of people pushing all kinds of crazy conspiracies.
I think racsim is an unconscious social construct for a lot of people. But white people have no problem protecting their interests by being deliberately racist and then pretending that they are not and make up excuses deflecting it everywhere but at themselves.
Hollywood is a top down hierarchy. YouTube and Vismo are not. I think with the direction technology is going, and with non whites accesiblity to technology to make thier own films, the white lens within Holyrood becomes less influential. As demographics become less white the market for what people will want to see will change accordingly.
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Well d*mn….
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Someone mentioned ‘Exodus; Gods and Kings’
It seemed that Hollywood bent over backwards to have as few POC in a production about POC as possible.
I could see using any actor in any part with the right makeup but the casting of Zipporah was way off the mark. While the actress who played her was beautiful I think they could have at least used someone like the racially ambiguous Zoe Saldona instead. Saldona has played a green woman in ‘Guardians of the Galaxy’ and a blue woman in ‘Avatar’. I think audiences could see someone like her as the wife of Moses. Even DreamWorks’ animated ‘The Prince of Egypt’ came closer.
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Hollywood also like to have white saviors in movies about Blacks, Native Americans ect.
It helps deflect away from white collective guilt and the real horror of genocide, rape, slavery ect. It allows white people to imagine that if they were alive at that period in time they “would have done something about it” and relate to the savior not their grandparents, ancestors. That way they can experience being on the “good” side.
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@Abagond
Again, perhaps I forgot to add sarcasm to my original post.
My approach to resw77 was based on what he wrote. I havn’t read any other of his posts. We have all, presumably, read other trolls on the internet who sound like resw77, what he wrote sounded very similar.
@resw77
Just as in mathematics, historians disagree a lot more than they agree.
The notion that they act in a concerted manner, and with the media, as you asserted, is wrong.
The study of history is a much livelier field than you think. Niall Ferguson is a right wing historian (‘glory to the British Empire’). Pankaj Mishra is a left wing historian.
Not just that. A bachelor’s degree, a master’s degree and, more often than not, a Phd. And after that, a position at a university.
Sure, you can publish in a cheap academic journal that no one reads without those things, but you are not referring to that, are you?
You’re referring to the ‘elite’ historians.
The set of standards for the top journals is very objective. You have a very high set of standards when it comes to thoroughness and referencing.
Even after you publish an article, you are then judged by its ‘impact’ factor. How many references does it get? does anyone read it? Is it deemed an addition to the literature?
The statement you made was that they had a specific ‘program’ lined up.
The statement you made was that ‘Gods of Egypt’ would have been as successful without whitewashing. I said: Would American Sniper have been as successful without whitewashing?
If they had shown Chris Kyle to be a murderous racist psychopath (as he actually was), would American Sniper have been a box office success?
I have listed lots and lots of examples of whitewashing (The Departed, Eminem, Elvis Presley, Iggy Azalea, Adele etc.). Have a look at my previous posts.
None of them would have been as successful without whitewashing.
The examples you listed are not what I was attacking. I was attacking your argument that White Supremacy is a carefully drawn out plan.
If it was so carefully drawn out, then why does the White Empire make so many mistakes?
I have argued that White Supremacy is the natural extension of Empire Building when a form of tribalism based on skin-colour exists.
This is a point on which Abagond and I have diverged many times. See the ‘Game of Empires’ thread, before I go off topic.
Having a program implies that it is done consciously…
And again, I am advocating the military destruction of the White Empire.
Abagond is advocating reconciliation.
.
.
.
.
.
*sniff*
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@ MJB – In any relationship there is always one who is greater than the other. ‘White Savior’ or ‘Magical Negro’ – I think these are attempts to downplay racism by showing that different groups can work together.
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@MJB @Uglyblackjohn
I agree.
That is the clearest example possible that Hollywood serves up what white people want.
White people loooove the ‘good white guy’ trope.
The Last Samurai, Avatar, Dances with Wolves, District 9, The Last King of Scotland, the list goes on.
It is the ‘White Man’s Burden’ all over again.
White audiences just lap it up, it makes them feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
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somaliprince
resw77 isn’t a troll. This would be the second off base accusation you have made about him followed by “I never read any of his post.”
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michaeljonbarker
I think much of what you said can be seen in action now. Most people use YouTube and other online sources for entertainment. Some as a result of rising prices and others as a result of more creative, edgy, or raw entertainment. I fit in both categories and have found the amount of people following suit surprising.
I noticed Hollywood is trying to pull people back by adding a bit more diversity (blackish, Fresh off the boat, and soon telenovelas), but even those shows have too much of a white element to them to really pull people like me in .
Asian entertainers get a lot of exposure on Youtube and it removes a lot of stereotypes that Hollywood usually showcase Asians as.
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@Kiwi
No you havn’t. Fair share implies a sizeable number. You have 大山 (Dashan), the French guy Julian and a few other famous Mandarin speakers.
These guys arn’t even actors. You may have seen 4 or 5 white people speaking broken Chinese but that doesn’t count as a fair share.
You were implying that Chinese productions is rife with White people speaking Chinese, which is deceitful.
Your inevitable conclusion was that Chinese media represented white people disproportionately, which isn’t true.
That’s a pretty strong accusation. I actually think the way you have carried out arguments with me has been pretty dishonest, but I havn’t taken it to heart the way you appear to be taking it.
I have been pretty consistent with my line of argumentation since I arrived here, even if it caused upset.
It is precisely because of money that race matters, in Hollywood.
Who said that money meant racism didn’t matter?
I am not explaining away racial discrimination, I am saying that the average person racially discriminates.
And Hollywood provides the necessary fodder to feed that prejudice.
When did I say economics explained racism?
I said that Hollywood is largely based on the racism that white people have.
Where racism comes from is a topic for another discussion.
I am not saying racism is ‘okay’, I am saying racism is prevalent amongst white consumers and that the best answer is to boycott Hollywood.
There is definitely conscious racism. I disagreed with the ‘program’ thing resw77 was arguing.
Most people dont think they are racist, but subconsciouly they are.
A lot of people are openly, consciously, racist.
Hollywood producers are most probably racist, but that matters little to me.
Hollywood producers are probably racist against the Chinese, but that doesn’t stop them bending over backwards to please them.
Hollywood producers are probably racist against Blacks, but that doesn’t stop them casting a Black actor if it will be profitable.
Dave Chapelle recognised this. He realised most of the White people he worked with were racist and that they were just trying to make money off of his back.
It doesn’t justify racism. It means we have to move away from Hollywood.
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I don’t recall reading a resw77 post before. I know I don’t recall because I keep having to type his name out and I don’t recognise it.
How could I know he was a regular contributor?
I didn’t say he was a troll, I said he sounded like one.
I asked him to back up his claims and he did, case closed.
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SomaliPrince
I am well aware that you have not. I am not accusing you of any prior interactions to a point that you should no better. I am simply pointing out that if you have not then stop making such accusations.
This is what you said:
We have all, presumably, read other trolls on the internet who sound like resw77, what he wrote sounded very similar.
This implies he is a troll like “others” you encountered that sound like him. Not the “he sounds like a troll” you claim to have said.
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@ sharinalr,
Two of my boys watch Japanese anime every week on YouTube. Their are a number of different ones that are in a series. They are in Japanese with English subtitles.
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@Kiwi,
I’m not sure if there has been a study on this, but certainly Hollywood producers are driven by forces other than the market, and it looks like conscious racism just like the textbook choices made by Texas school boards look like conscious racism.
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@ Kiwi
I don’t think you have established a case of SP lying but rather using poor comparisons that don’t relate nor were similar to each other.
I do the same thing sometimes and Jefe has blown up some of my well intentioned ideas and pointed out blind spots.
I try to be philosophically consistent but it doesn’t always work out like I think.
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@Abagond,
Sometimes he uses the “Take Japan, For instance” trope and substituting China in.
But that is also another “white” apologist tactic.
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I’m gong to take a risk hete.
SP thinks like a Somali not like a Westerner. We think like Westerners because we have been raised to view society through race. He was raised not to see ethnicity as defining identity but rather family ties within the clan. It was the matrix make up of families within clans that Samali identity is derived from not ethnicity or race. It was drummed into his head as a child what ihis identiy was, what their legal traditions were, what his clan afflictions represnted. and how he would he fit into that comunity. Thus a prince means “a son of a clan with elder statis”. We at first understood it as ego but it was a formal introduction of his identity.
It is this close knit society that collectively could function without a state because society wasn’t broken down between individuales made up of different ethnicities which is the frame work Western society is built on.
The judicial system within Somali included judges from within the clan community and not from an outside sorce like how it is done through Western tradition. In that way justice made whole both the individuale and the clan. By contrast Western justice makes whole the State at the expense of both the individuale and the community. When SP makes seemingly color blind statements those are derived from his cuturall tradition that he is remaing consistant to, not from him cultural appropriating Western cutural and appearing to be a White apologist. It is we who are judging his statements through the lens of Western supremecy and dismissing his legitimate traditional values.
When he argues for Empire he does through understanding that power is derived through wealth. It is the collective make up of wealth within the clan that determined social status amongst the hiearchy of different clans. The marraige amongst clans stabalizes the wealth of the clan as.well as insures peace. It strengthens society so that when foreign invaders come they have a hard time breaking it.
I am gomg to.make the assumption that a foreiner could move to Somalia, marry.into a clan, and whatever ethnic background he had would be replaced with a family title representing the clan he became apart of. He would have to understand and know through oral tradition the history, laws and family clan connections. This wipes away his ethnic identity and replaces it with a Somali one.
So Somali Prince’s resistance to arguments about viewing people soley through race come from a thousand year tradition. He views whites through their economics because it is their that he sees their power originating from within. He is saying that in order for Blacks to have any politicale power Blacks must attain economic power outside of the white power structure. He seems comfortable using white strategies in order to attain that means. He is comfortable with capitalsim. But he is a still pointing back to Black family values and history as the basis for a Black society.
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@Somaliprince
“The notion that they act in a concerted manner, and with the media, as you asserted, is wrong.”
I specifically said the opposite: “Just because people or institutions are working to further the interests of white supremacy, does NOT mean they are working “together’ however that word is construed…NOT necessarily in a concerted effort. Get it now?”
Clearly you didn’t get it.
“Not just that. A bachelor’s degree, a master’s degree and, more often than not, a Phd. And after that, a position at a university”
No sh!t, Sherlock…and acceptance to a university, a high school diploma, a junior high school diploma, an primary school diploma, since you want to nitpick. Obviously if we’re talking about academic works, it was assumed that such works are by academics.
“The study of history is a much livelier field than you think. Niall Ferguson is a right wing historian (‘glory to the British Empire’). Pankaj Mishra is a left wing historian.”
There’s no such thing as a “right wing historian” or a “left wing historian.” There are no political alliances in history. Either you’re a historian or a revisionist.
“I didn’t say he was a troll, I said he sounded like one.”
If anyone sounds like a troll it’s you. You’re a fake Somali, a fake prince, have been commenting on this site for a matter of weeks, and all your comments have a common theme.
I, on the other hand, have been commenting here for years, on a wide range of topics, and my comments aren’t part of an agenda.
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@resw77
You wrote this:
You then wrote this:
You first statement clearly implies that they are working together, you then backtrack from that completely.
Africans don’t have to think the way AAs do.
I am saying that money is what controls Hollywood.
I regularly purchase films and TV shows from African producers, do you?
It is easy to criticise but much harder to build.
I have setup 2 businesses based in Africa so far, one in property, one in trading. I ship goods back and forth between Africa, China and Europe.
I live in Ireland in order to take advantage of the lower business taxes.
Very little of the money I make goes to white people. The majority of it goes back to Africa (my family and my businesses).
I take advantage of off-shore tax havens and keep the cash I need for my day to day operations in Swiss bank accounts.
I do business regularly with white people, jewish people, chinese people and arabic people.
My accountants are black, my financial advisors are black and my employees are black.
I understand capitalism and play the game accordingly.
There are countless of other Africans who had adopted a similar strategy to mine.
The most famous one being Akon.
I suppose you would call him ‘whitewashed’ too?
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michaeljonbarker
I agree with you and gathered that from him first commenting, but he does have a lot of inconsistencies. I get his main points, but too much is seen as cut and dry and that is not how anything is.
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@somaliprince
“You first statement clearly implies that they are working together, you then backtrack from that completely.”
No it doesn’t, and this is not a hard concept to grasp. I’ll give you yet another example: McDonalds and Burger King both sell hamburgers, however, it does not mean that they are in cahoots.
That western historians and the media are both supporting white supremacy does not mean they are in cahoots.
“Very little of the money I make goes to white people.”
Except all the money you supposedly pay in taxes, and nearly all the money you supposedly spend in Ireland that goes to whites. Relevance?
In fact I honestly don’t see how anything else you said is relevant to Hollywood whitewashing. Sounds to me like my suspicious of you being both a fake Somali and a troll are probably accurate.
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Howard Zinn is a left wing historian. I wouldn’t describe his works as “revisionist”.
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@resw77
You’re right, we have gone off topic.
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@michaeljonbarker
Merriam-Webster defines “left wing” as follows: “the part of a political group that consists of people who support liberal or socialist ideas and policies : the part of a political group that belongs to or supports the Left”
“left wing” refers to political ideology, not history. How you can conflate the two is…well…interesting.
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@Abagond
My apologies in advance.
@resw77
I am trying to stay on topic, but I couldn’t resist a reply.
The job of a historian isn’t to simply study events.
The majority of a historian’s work is to piece primary sources (archaeological finds, historical texts, ancient architecture) together and to try to solve the riddle of what actually happened.
Because of this, historians will differ in their interpretation.
A historian will never say ‘I am a left wing historian’, but it nevertheless becomes apparent that a lot of historians who study the same sources end up with different conclusions.
These conclusions can often place them on different sides of the political spectrum.
Niall Ferguson is a famous right wing historian.
He might not say he is right wing, but his research is used by people on the right of the political specturm to confirm their right wing views.
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I thought SP was a troll when he first arrived here. He was arrogant and later apologized.
I belive he is who he says he is. He does need to not make assumptions about posters and it seems to me he is still weaving together his worldview and that their is work that needs to be done their. All of our world views are constantly evolving.
This whole debate was about what the word “program” meant. Sometimes it’s not about winning the argumet but understanding what the argument actually IS.
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The whole idea of a left wing or right wing historian is ridiculous. Why does it matter what political leaning he has? If he/she sets out to be biased in some way he/she will. After all…there work is up for interpretation.
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I personally don’t think the idea of Marketing holds a huge amount of weight. I am not saying money does not play it’s part, but let us look at what white people are buying. They are the biggest purchasers of rap music, tv shows and movies such as black-ish. The Cosby show, and Straight outta Compton did not gross as much as they did based solely on black people. This tells me that whites are ready and willing to see “others”. So the real question for me is, If it is about money then why is Hollywood not giving them what they want?
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History is always presented as neutral but it is never neutral.
Historians view history through various idilogical lenses and frame history around specific idilogical biases and ideas.
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@somaliprince
“The majority of a historian’s work is to piece primary sources…Because of this, historians will differ in their interpretation.”
We mostly agree on that…
“but it nevertheless becomes apparent that a lot of historians who study the same sources end up with different conclusions.”
This is where I separate theories from facts, e.g., it is a historical fact that Barack Obama won the US presidential election in 2008. It is an opinion that he won it because he was black.
“These conclusions can often place them on different sides of the political spectrum.”
Only if those conclusions are opinions about political matters (in very limited circumstances), otherwise, I don’t see the relevance.
“He might not say he is right wing, but his research is used by people on the right of the political specturm to confirm their right wing views”
That doesn’t make him a “right-wing historian.” Using that same logic, white American racists use the bible to justify racism, but that does that mean the people who wrote the bible were white American racists.
I’m saying that accepted interpretations of historical events (like in Exodus: Gods and Kings) and America’s long history of denegrating non-whites have a much greater influence on Hollywood’s whitewashing than you think. I understand your “it’s only for the sake of capitalism” argument, but I think it’s extremely naive.
@michaeljonbarker
Well taken.
@sharinalr
And the list goes on…NBA, NFL, etc. Good point.
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You make some good points, Sharina.
I think that some whites are not consciously racist but subconsciously racist.
Or at least subconsciously racially prejudiced.
There may even be some whites who are not racially biased at all.
These whites watch films with black people and listen to hip hop music.
Just like whites will watch films like ‘Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon’ because they are very good films.
My point was that Hollwood producers have discovered that good films made by black people or asian people will actually make more money if they remake it in a whitewashed format.
The ‘Elvis Presley’ formula.
Straight Outta Compton was a very good film, but it still didn’t make as much money as 8 mile.
2pac was probably the greatest hip hop musician ever, but Eminem quickly outsold him.
Eminem says it himself: ‘Let’s do the math: if I was black, I woulda sold half’
In my opinion, Black films and musicians have to be very good before they are taken seriously.
Whereas white people can be entirely average and still make a lot of money (Iggy Azalea, Vanilla Ice, Rebecca Black).
I don’t know how the psychology of it works, but I believe white people have a tendency to root for their own – no matter what.
They are a lot more critical of black films, black actors and black artists than they are of white people.
That is why I think we should boycott Hollywood and start rooting for our own.
MJB has rightly pointed out that the influence of Hollywood is waning, let’s see what happens next.
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@@somaliprince
For the most part I agree with you, but…..
“The ‘Elvis Presley’ formula.”—I think it had more to do with removing black artist as a household name and replacing it with a white face, than money. Young white girls were being influenced by the negro. Sneaking around dirty dancing with black males they believed had a musical gift. Replacing it with a white face might have made them more money, but it also ensured their young innocent white girls will not stray. You have to remember that older whites did not agree with how Elvis danced, but they were likely more horrified by blacks doing it and tricking their little innocent children into the dirty dancing.
“That is why I think we should boycott Hollywood and start rooting for our own.”—Completely agree.
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I listen to music that I like to hear. It’s not based on the race of the performer.
I like action/survival type movies.
I met this white rapper at an anarchist camp festival. He was selling his CD’s for 5 dollars. He will never get signed mainstream so he has his own label.
I like his stuff because it sounds good and for what he has to say.
Fetti Profoun / American Dream
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIGyS-WI8GI)
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@ SP – Why boycott? Just learn to write and direct.
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@Uglyblackjohn @MJB
When I say boycott, I mean boycott the whitewashed films. Don’t boycott films that contribute positively to the black community.
@MJB
That’s a good song. It reminds me of one of my favourite artists: Brother Ali.
Check out this song: (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OO18F4aKGzQ)
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Looks like Chinese media takes Hollywood Whitewashing one step further.
(CNN)
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/12/08/asia/star-wars-china-racist-poster/index.html
Chinese state media hits back at claims of racist ‘Star Wars’ poster
(Expat website discussing China issues)
http://shanghaiist.com/2015/12/08/racist_chinese_star_wars_poster.php
Is the Chinese Star Wars poster racist? The Global Times doesn’t think so
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@Kiwi
I just spent two days in mainland China again and flipped through 50 local channels over a period of about 6 hours.
— only saw one white person appear on a nature documentary program that was co-hosted by a Chinese mainlander
– saw two blacks on the sports channel broadcasting an NBA game – the camera panned to them in the locker room during half time.
Otherwise, only saw Mandarin speaking Chinese (about 99.9% of the total). There was one (1) channel called the “pearl River Channel” broadcasting in Cantonese. No foreigners (even Asian foreigners) appeared during the whole time on any of the mainland channels.
They did have one of the English language HK channels available, and one of the programs featured English people (from UK?). Even that channel featured only Chinese people on the other TV programs (including mainland TV travel show dubbed in English).
I acknowledge that you claim that Chinese TV is flooded with (or at least has some tendency to feature) white people, but in the past 20 years, that has never been my experience. They show a couple dozen Mainland Chinese TV channels in HK, and although they may occasionally feature white people, that has never been a regular feature (except for the English language news programmes, and even then, they are not the main feature). There are maybe two travel shows that feature a white female host speaking mandarin opposite her male Chinese co-host.
Maybe you can share what kind of mainland Chinese TV programs you have encountered that feature so many white people. I really would like to know more.
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I know it’s not technically Hollywood, but WTF?!?
http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/27/entertainment/joseph-fiennes-michael-jackson-feat/
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@ Open Minded Observer
So, so sad.
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http://www.theguardian.com/film/2016/feb/22/major-study-hollywood-endemic-diversity-crisis
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http://www.theguardian.com/film/2016/feb/18/hollywood-diversity-box-office-money
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@ Herneith
Ridiculous claim… everyone knows that Egyptians are White!
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Not only that, they are Northern European with British or Scottish accents to boot!
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^Saints preserve us! ‘Tis the Finnegan Pharoh!!!!
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Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
That is a dark skin black man! Black people are the only people that have woolly hair. All the people of the bible are black. Christ was not white he was black. Enough of the lies of the European. If you go to Russia in all their old ancient churches Christ and the Disciples are drawn as black men as is Mary! It’s only in Europe all the people of the bible are shown as white. Now why is that?
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James Beckwourth mulatto cowboy turned white in a 1951 film.
(http://www.badazzmofo.com/2015/02/23/lessons-in-black-history-james-beckwourth/)
Snoop Dogg would be perfect to play him.
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GroJo,
Snoop looks too laid back to play him..
just from that picture alone, James Beckworth looked like a real serious dude, who did not take any s… from anyone!
Good information though.
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At least one hollywood director admits that he resorted to whitewashing. But his excuse was quite lame and he offered no workable solution to fix it.
With the current crop of Hollywood executives we can only look forward to whitewashing to continue.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/11/02/doctor-strange-director-owns-up-to-whitewashing-controversy.html
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@Jefe
I admit that I do not know fully the origins of Dr. Strange, but looking at he trailers it felt as if he should have been Asian. It was weird seeing some white guy up there. It was out of place. To find out the original Dr. Strange was indeed Asian. I felt that here we are again with a movie I can’t support.
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In 1994 Julia Roberts was one of the names floated to play Harriet Tubman.
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What a joke!
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Surprised they didn’t go for Tom Hanks. /s
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Who cares. This is stupid
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I have some skin in the game to an extent. In the early 2000s, I wrote a one-hour play with the characters of Babe Ruth and a Lou Gehrig-like individual in it. Many theatrical companies, and especially college drama departments, practice non-racial casting. I thought about the idea of casting Ruth and a manifestly German-American ballplayer with black actors. My conclusion was, the Babe, as I drew him, was a costume character, and there would be great problem with a black or other non-white actor playing him. With the other ballplayer, whose German-American descent was a significant issue, I’m not so sure it would work. But it’s theater.
By the way, Ruth was, like Gehrig, also of German descent. Some people think, based on his wide nose, that he was part black, and some of his opponents trash-talked him on the issue. But he was provably entirely of German descent. The straight-on photos flattened his features. Pictures in profile show that he had a large and somewhat upturned nose, perhaps a common feature among Central Europeans.
My treatment of Ruth might be a departure. In my plot, he is already retired from baseball. He is not depicted as an oaf at all, but as someone who is world-wise, moralistic in his way and generally exact in his expression. Darn, it would be nice if someone produced the work.
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