Note: This is another in my continuing series on Possible Racial Futures for the US. This one is based on the last chapter of “The White Racial Frame” (2010) by Joe R. Feagin, a White American sociologist.
The US is capable of becoming less racist and more democratic, as shown by Reconstruction in the 1800s, which freed slaves and made them citizens, and Civil Rights reforms in the 1900s, which overthrew Jim Crow.
But both Reconstruction and Civil Rights were later seriously weakened because they left two things in place:
- Ideological: The white racial frame (white racism).
- Economic: Huge racial inequalities in wealth, income and education.
Therefore you need:
- Ideological: The liberty-and-justice frame of the Founding Fathers along with an understanding of stereotyping and institutional racism.
- Economic: Reparations, especially for Black and Native Americans.
Reparations: Crimes against humanity, like slavery, genocide and Jim Crow, have no statute of limitation. Without reparations it will take hundreds of years for the wealth gap between Whites and Blacks, for example, to close. Whites need to be educated to understand the huge historical damages of racial oppression and the need for major government compensation to pay for said damages.
The damage has not just been material but psychological, so something like South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission is needed as well.
The liberty-and-justice frame: Whites say they believe in it, but their enforcement of civil rights laws shows that deep down they do not, at least not when it goes against:
The white racial frame. It cuts off Whites culturally from much of the US and the world. It leads to bad foreign policy abroad and a huge waste of human capital at home. It limits freedom and democracy. It limits White thought, feeling and action, making Whites severely lacking in empathy for others. It makes them into hypocrites, saying one thing (the liberty-and-justice frame) while doing another (the white racial frame).
Some ways to weaken the white racial frame:
- Education:
- Teach Racism 101 and Stereotyping 101 at all levels of education.
- Teach about famous people of colour, especially the racism they faced.
- Read first-person accounts of Americans facing racism.
- Teach the true history of racism and anti-racism in the US.
- Teach how civil rights organizations apply the liberty-and-justice frame, seriously and carefully considering their point of view.
- Consciousness raising: Have students keep diaries of racial discussions and events and then discuss them.
- Train teachers to understand stereotype threat, etc.
- Teach critical thinking.
- Media:
- Show people of colour in less stereotyped ways.
- Calling out racism, best done by:
- appealing to a sense of fairness.
- appealing, where possible, to common religious moral ideas.
- making the racial “they” into the American “we”.
- having support groups for outers.
The US needs strong enforcement of civil rights laws, which requires:
- Leadership that looks like America at top institutions, particularly the Supreme Court, leadership that supports racial change, reparations and restoration. That in turn requires:
- An anti-racist movement supported by people of all races, one like the abolitionist movement of the 1800s or the civil rights movement of the 1900s.
Over the next 40 years or so Whites will have to come to terms with becoming a minority. That presents a golden opportunity to change the US for the better.
See also:
- Other possible racial futures:
- Painter – multiracial middle-class
- Bonilla-Silva – Latin Americanization of race in the US
- The Smedleys – racism as slowly fading away
- Huntington – clash of civilizations
- Other posts based onFeagin’s book:
- Ta-Nehisi Coates: The Case for Reparations
- Jim Crow
- Nelson Mandela
Here’s a great article that I had to read for a political ecology class:
http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/05/the-case-for-reparations/361631/
I agree. Even as a new arrival to this country, I will be glad to contribute to help this community. It’s embarrassing that even Brazil has more policies, such as affirmative action, to reverse still present racial disparities.
Great blog and thank you.
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FYI:
Silence is not how we defend ourselves against an ideological battle, it is how we surrender.
Peace, Abdulhaleem ibnBoyd
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Instead of reparations (or comparable actions) there could also be an event that set everbody back to zero, like a devastating war or hyperinflation.
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@Kartoffel
There’s nothing that can set everybody “back to zero,” nor should there be. We’ve had devastating wars and hyperinflation (plus currency has always devalued over time), but some families have remained wealthy for many generations primarily b/c of their real estate holdings (and gold and silver, but the US gov’t confiscated it as recently as 1934).
The problem with many African American families was involuntary land loss, which has been extensively studied by many academics. US Civil Rights Commission also noted USDA and FmHA discrimination of blacks (and billion $ settlements were received in 2010, but is not nearly enough to satisfy the long-term damage that has been done).
And the other side of the equation is business ownership, and we know that both banks and gov’t discriminated against non-whites, who were less likely to get business loans to start or grow their operations.
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The normal inflation doesn’t hurt the wealthy, but if you have a hyperinflation and currency reform after that, most of the accumulated wealth that had been handed down from the profits of slavery and Jim Crow would be gone. I don’t think that’s desireable and it would certainly be unconstitutional to to that be design. But it is a possibility to level the field.
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I have three white friends that have worked through most of their racism and privilege. Two I have known for over 10 years and the other I have known for 5 and I consider him my best friend. I have regular discussions about racism in the United States with them without them getting defensive like the vast majority of whites in the US.
One thing that all three of them have in common is that they are all aware of the true history of their ancestors. My eldest friend actually visited all the countries that his ancestors were from (which included Germany and several Eastern European countries). My best friend, who is mostly of Pennsylvania Dutch background, learned German on his own and became fluent (no one else in his family has did this), and is a lifelong student of European and world history. My other friend also has a strong sense of history and even took a DNA test to see where his ancestors came from. He recently discovered (as of a few months ago) that his grandmother was an adopted Swedish woman.
The point of all this? I believe that these three have a much more frank and honest look at themselves than most American whites who might be able to tell you what countries their ancestors are from but don’t really know any history or anything of cultural value. I believe most white Americans have a fairy tale view about themselves and other whites and why they came to this country to begin with and what they did once they got there. The usual narrative that goes around is that their ancestors came from nothing, didn’t own slaves (like that would make a difference to me), worked hard, learned the language, and now they see being “white” as one big collective family that has these qualities. The truth of the matter is far more complicated which includes plenty of white inter-ethnic violence (that didn’t really stop until rather recently), plenty of people who never really mastered the English language (my friend who visited Eastern Europe had relatives that only spoke Polish until the day they died even though they were naturalized citizens), and white gang violence that makes the black and Latino gangs of today look like boyscouts in comparison. Was that the majority of white immigrants? I’m not saying that. But neither are the majority of blacks and Latinos “gangbangers” even though we are stereotyped as such.
My friends, even though they understand they are “white” in America simply because of how they look, don’t identify as “white” and actually see it as somewhat absurd to identify as such. They understand the “one big white happy family” as a recent invention that has been used as an exclusive club to put down other people and they are not about to drink that cool-aid. It’s not that they want to be a black or Asian or non-white person, they are actually more interested and know more about their history than most other white people but they don’t romanticize, idealize or simplify it the I see most white Americans doing. So to sum things up I think it’s important for white Americans to learn about their own history (actually this is true for everyone but the subject at hand is white people) in an objective way. It’s really hard to believe in “whiteness” when things are viewed as they are. I’m not saying this is some sort of magic bullet but I think it is a vital part of the equation. I don’t know how much my post made sense, it’s probably a mess but I was short on time and typing from my iPhone.
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Another excellent post. “Racism 101” and “Stereotyping 101” would be an excellent integration in the K-12 public and private school curriculum. As a health science teacher I would include Nutrition 101 in the K-12 curriculum as well.
As our ancestor Frederick Douglass said: “It’s better to build a child than to repair an adult.”
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@kartoffel
“The normal inflation doesn’t hurt the wealthy, but if you have a hyperinflation and currency reform after that, most of the accumulated wealth that had been handed down from the profits of slavery and Jim Crow would be gone.”
Not necessarily, as I tried to explain above, hyperinflation does not adversely affect the value of land and commodities, which maintain their value in hyperinflationary environment.
So no, hyperinflation wouldn’t necessarily wipe out wealth accumulated as a result of slavery, if such wealth is held in the form of real estate, gold, silver, etc. The value of the US dollar in just 100 years has declined 95% and still Abagond was able to come up with a lengthy list of companies and institutions that profited from slavery but still exist today–financially stronger than ever.
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@ Kartoffel
resw77 said:
There’s nothing that can set everybody “back to zero,” nor should there be.
I agree with resw77.
——————————————————————————————————-
Hyperinflation and war ravage humans and ravage human spirit. They are not a solution, they are destruction.
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resw77,
As always, you’ve got a laundry list of rationales for failure to start on the road to prosperity. And there’s that favorite rationale about slavery and how the slave-owners moved their wealth into other assets.
Yes, hyperinflation in the US would change everything, and we came as close as we need ever to come in the 70s to early 80s when interest rates soared, a period when short-term Treasury bills peaked at 21% and long-term Treasury bonds hit 15%.
Savings & Loans went bust because Carter ended Regulation Q, but wouldn’t allow commercial banks to acquire the savings & loans. Through the 80s home-buyers all over the country stopped paying their mortgages and mailed their house-keys to the lenders holding their mortgages.
High inflation destroys real estate values, though high rates make things easier for all-cash buyers.
After President Ford legalized gold ownership for private citizens, US gold prices soared from $35 an ounce to $800 and ounce. In 1979 the Hunt Brothers cornered the silver market, driving the price up to about $50 an ounce. Then the price collapsed and the Hunts were hammered.
Where’s gold now? Around $1,300. By every measure, gold has been a lousy investment, though it may be handy if you’re smuggling your net worth out of one ragged economy into a safer one. Where’s that? The money all comes to the US.
Capital flight and money laundering are two key uses for gold.
Despite these silly claims I’ve seen here, no business, industry or institution operating today is getting along on whatever it might have earned through links to slavery.
And none of today’s family fortunes were funded by slavery.
The real question to answer is the one regarding creativity and turning that creativity into financial success. Where’s the new Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Warren Buffett, Larry Ellison and Richard Branson, etc? The black ones.
There’s Richard Johnson and Oprah. After those two? Athletes and entertainers. But no inventors or investors, In other words, too few to make a widespread difference. So, focusing on the future is the only way. Obsessing over the past is a waste of time.
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[…] Note: This is another in my continuing series on Possible Racial Futures for the US. This one is based on the last chapter of “The White Racial Frame” (2010) by Joe R. Feagin, a White American sociologist.The US is capable of becoming less racist and more democratic, as shown by Reconstruction in the 1800s, which freed slaves and made them citizens, and Civil Rights reforms in the 1900s, which overthrew Jim Crow.But both Reconstruction and Civil Rights were later seriously weakened because they left two things in place: Ideological: The white racial frame (white racism).Economic: Huge racial inequalities in wealth, income and education.Therefore you need: Ideological: The liberty-and-justice frame of the Founding Fathers along with an understanding of stereotyping and institutional racism.Economic: Reparations, especially for Black and Native Americans.- Click through for more – […]
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[…] Source: abagond.wordpress.com […]
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@ Kartoffel
Is hyperinflation or war something that you would like to occur in the U.S.?
————————————————————————————————–
@ Kiwi
I thought Kartoffel’s comment was strange.
I was troubled by it and also thought it strange.
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This appears very complex and Idealistic.
Instead of focusing on idealistic goals of unity the focus should be on what tactics and strategies are the most effective and beneficial to black and brown peoples.
Being aware of racism is one thing but unless you have the knowledge and resources to defend yourself from those intent on practicing on you ,said awareness is the equivalent of watch your own execution.
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@ Kartoffel
I think I get the scenario you’re talking about: the kind of tabula rasa / blank slate that starts things again by levelling, and builds a better world from there.
It’s an ideal for equality, etc., very different from any kind of DESIRE to see anyone nation or people hurt or deprived or something horrible like that.
I do not believe that is what you meant or tried to say.
As an idea, it’s regular theme in Sci-Fi and so on.
(There was a time when I used to hear a particular friend he wished the all the computers that belonged to world’s richest bank’s would all meltdown at the same time, and all the debt owed by the poorest countries would just disappear in one go…)
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Typos. Last paragraph in brackets SHOULD read:
(There was a time when I used to hear a particular friend say he wished all the computers that belonged to the world’s richest bank’s would all meltdown at the same time, and all the debt owed by the poorest countries would just disappear in one go…)
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@sb32199
“As always, you’ve got a laundry list of rationales for failure to start on the road to prosperity.”
If you actually read my post, I specifically pointed to a proven way to preserve wealth, which is land and commodities ownership.
“Yes, hyperinflation in the US would change everything”
We’ve already seen hyperinflation in the US, and any family that saved their wealth in dollars has lost 95% since 1913.
“Where’s the new Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Warren Buffett, Larry Ellison and Richard Branson, etc? The black ones…There’s Richard Johnson and Oprah. After those two? Athletes and entertainers. ”
Broadcasting your ignorance yet again, I see. African Americans have since 1821 filed thousands of patents, including the same black man who drafted both Alexander Graham Bell and Thomas Edison’s most famous patent applications.
And if you’re looking for the “black ones” look no further than John W. Rogers Jr., Isabel Dos Santos, or Aliko Dangote, a self-made entrepreneur who’s worth 5 times as much as Richard Branson.
And they’ve been able to achieve that in the face of discrimination, oppression and the ENORMOUS head start whites have had…SMH. Now I see why racists like you have tried so desperately and unsuccessfully to keep blacks down.
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@sb32199
“Where’s gold now? Around $1,300. By every measure, gold has been a lousy investment”
LOL, it’s so lousy that it’s up 3600% since 1971 in dollar terms, and up 233% in the last decade alone. Besides, I never called gold an investment, I said specifically that it is a commodity that retains the value of wealth.
“And none of today’s family fortunes were funded by slavery.”
That’s your opinion, which we know means very little, and it can’t be proven.
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@ Bulanik
Of couse I don’t advocate such a drastic upheaval or hope for it. It would be devastating and at the end everyone would be a lot poorer, but equally poor (not completly, as resw77 has correctly pointed out, not every wealth is destroyed by hyperinflation or currency reform. But there can be no doubt that much of the accumulated wealtch would be lost. We don’t even have to speculate about this, just look at the examples of hyperinflation in the past.)
@ resw77
“We’ve already seen hyperinflation in the US, and any family that saved their wealth in dollars has lost 95% since 1913.”
That’s not hyperinflation, just regular inflation. It also diminishes the savings, but not nearly radical enough to lead to the described “blank slate”.
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@ Kartoffel
Quite so!
Of course you weren’t advocating, or hoping, for such devastation visited on anyone.
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@ Abagond
“Teaching about famous people of color ,especially the racism they faced”
I hate to tell you but this one is not working..and never will. How many book reports and papers about black people have white children done in school during Black History Month. Nah.. this country’s racist ideology is too far gone for that. An appeal to the conscience is hit or miss because there really isn’t one. Capitalism pimps racism and sexism for its own ends. Because not only is there an ideology, there is the will behind it . Ask any Native American about broken treaties.
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I noticed that there is civil unrest among POC when there is injustice or perceived injustice. But when are the skinheads, neo conservatives and Neo Nazi’s trotted out? When there is an economic downturn. Look at East Germany, Russia,Great Britain, Greece,Spain….The whites feel entitled. That’s it. Its hard to deny. Communism usually took hold in homogeneous countries..Cuba is an exception.
This boils down to how to teach away a feeling of entitlement based on a faulty sense of superiority? White people have the general outlook that there are not enough resources on this planet to go around. They truly feel this way. So ..can they really be helped?
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“Jacque:
“I hate to tell you but this one is not working..and never will. How many book reports and papers about black people have white children done in school during Black History Month. Nah.. this country’s racist ideology is too far gone for that.”
I have to agree with this. Whites will have to be drug, kicking and screaming to allow their children in-roll into such a curriculum.
Racist they would say it is, ignoring the fact that the current teaching of subjects in school is racist, being it only teaches children about white people.
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Media: “Show people of color in less stereotyped ways” Yes to that. I feel that is how non whites perceptions of people of color are shaped is by the main stream media. The main stream media is very culpable in how the dominant culture make generalizations about marginalized groups.
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You can’t teach old dogs new tricks in order for any of this to work, the old heads would have to die out and you’d have to start with fresh young minds for this concept to work. Commenter Michael Cooper’s quote of Fredrick Douglass summarizes my point about “Better to build a child than repair an adult.”
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@Kartoffel
“That’s not hyperinflation”
Maybe you didn’t see my comma and “and.”
By “we’ve already seen hyperinflation,” I meant just that. It occurred in 1779, in the 1860s and as recently as the 1970s.
And the dollar losing 95% of its value in 100 years is not “regular” by any means. It is a result of the Fed (or any other central bank) intentionally debasing it. Real money does not inflate.
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“And if you’re looking for the “black ones” look no further than John W. Rogers Jr., Isabel Dos Santos, or Aliko Dangote, a self-made entrepreneur who’s worth 5 times as much as Richard Branson.
And they’ve been able to achieve that in the face of discrimination, oppression and the ENORMOUS head start whites have had…SMH. ” Aliko Dangote and Isabel Dos Santos faced discrimination, oppression?! Are you serious? Please tell me when and how these things occurred, because both of them were born with silver spoons in their mouths in overwhelmingly black nations.
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@ mary burrell
So true. Media is one of the most powerful tools of white supremacy…
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@Michael Cooper: Love the Fredrick Douglass quote It complements this thread post.
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@Bulainik: Exactly, you are on the money.
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Thank you, Mary Burrell.
Again, the idea of integrating Racism 101 and Stereotyping 101 to the K-12 curriculum would be an excellent way curing people from racism and ethnic stereotypes. But, of course, we would have to integrate Nutrition 101 as well. There’s a lot of health disparities in our communities, which would be eliminated if students were informed and taught about nutrition in the K-12 educational system. I’m at many school board meetings giving my input and displeasure of the lack of nutritional knowledge that our school children are embedded with. Nutritional and health-illiteracy leads to childhood obesity, diabetes, hypertension, etc. Unfortunately, we, blacks, are number one in these poor health-related dis-eases. I teach at a predominantly white school where even the white kids are at a nutrition-illiterate level. Nutrition and health-illiteracy is not confined to one ethnic group.
As a health teacher on the high school level it is imperative that I stress nutrition 101 to my students. As for society I live by an example of good health and fitness.
Watch my YouTube slideshow:
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MB and Bulanik are right about the media. They are the talking heads filling us with information about the world and support white supremacy.
The next is education, which filled us with so much MIS-information we cannot even evaluate the media.
I think americanasanguine alluded to another important point: People need to learn their own history, even whites. Education and the media has replaced their actual history with a white fairytale history.
And People need to learn the actual history of non-white and non-Anglo people in the USA. Most of that has been omitted and erased.
Economic resetting might be needed for some things, but what we really need resetting of our history, not of what happened, but of how it is remembered.
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Up thread was a typo I meant to say whites perception of people of color is due to the main steam media’s perception of black people and other marginalized people.
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@gro jo
“…faced discrimination, oppression?! Are you serious? Please tell me when and how these things occurred, because both of them were born with silver spoons in their mouths in overwhelmingly black nations.”
Racism has nothing to do with money, as many blacks were born into wealth, but still face racism.
And being in an “overwhelmingly black nation” has nothing to do with discrimination and oppression. Both Nigeria and Angola are former (really current) European colonies, and it may come as a surprise to you, but British and Portuguese companies still dominate, specifically the banks.
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resw77, Please name the Portuguese and British banks that dominate Angola and Nigeria and provide me with concrete evidence that Dangote and Dos Santos were discriminated and oppressed in their respective nations. I’m having trouble figuring out how the daughter of the president of Angola and a scion of one of the biggest business dynasties of Nigeria would be discriminated against and oppressed. I suspect that you are extrapolating the US black experience to all blacks everywhere around the world. the following links on Zenith bank, the largest bank in Nigeria indicates that it is run and owned by Nigerians.
http://businessdayonline.com/2014/07/13-nigerian-banks-make-worlds-top-1000-banks-ranking/#.U9hwImMl-E4
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zenith_Bank
http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/people/board.asp?ticker=ZENITHBA:NL
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[…] Note: This is another in my continuing series on Possible Racial Futures for the US. This one is based on the last chapter of “The White Racial Frame” (2010) by Joe R. Feagin, a White American sociologist.The US is capable of becoming less racist and more democratic, as shown by Reconstruction in the 1800s, which freed slaves and made them citizens, and Civil Rights reforms in the 1900s, which overthrew Jim Crow.But both Reconstruction and Civil Rights were later seriously weakened because they left two things in place: Ideological: The white racial frame (white racism).Economic: Huge racial inequalities in wealth, income and education.Therefore you need: Ideological: The liberty-and-justice frame of the Founding Fathers along with an understanding of stereotyping and institutional racism.Economic: Reparations, especially for Black and Native Americans.- Click through for more – […]
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resw77:
And if you’re looking for the “black ones” look no further than John W. Rogers Jr., Isabel Dos Santos, or Aliko Dangote, a self-made entrepreneur who’s worth 5 times as much as Richard Branson.
I can see from what you’ve written that you believe you know something about economics, finance and who’s who among the wealthy, but, in fact, you don’t.
John W Rogers Jr? He’s a nobody on Wall Street, though, because he is black he is a recipient of the Affirmative Action that Wall Street practices. Ariel Capital is less than a drop in the bucket. It exists only because there are laws requiring pension funds and other large investors to hire a black firm to manage a few dollars here and there.
Isabel Dos Dantos? Hilarious. Every dollar in her bank accounts came into her possession via her father, the corrupt thug in Angola who transferred valuable assets into her name. Her affluence was obtained the usual way it’s obtained in Africa. A thug dictator controls the country and hands out special deals to friends and family. Someone gets a cell phone franchise for an entire country. Someone else gets the mines. Another one controls the oil. On and on it goes.
Aliko Dangote? Another African corruption story. He has monopoly control of some industries in Nigeria and in a couple of other nearby nations. You can reach monopoly status only when the government prevents competition by handing a deal to one clown. He’s big in sugar. Pretty much controls the sugar business in Nigeria, which means he provides all the sugar to the soft-drink makers, They buy from him, or they can’t get sugar.
He’s big in Nigerian oil refining. That’s an area of extreme incompetence among muslims. The Nigerian refineries — there used to be four, but several years ago Nigeria decided to nationalize them. So they took them from the oil companies. It didn’t take long for the Nigerians to run them into the ground. They didn’t maintain them properly and they were totally unable to repair them. So, the refineries eventually stopped functioning. The Nigerian government enlisted the help of the oil companies to get them running again, and along the way Dangote got his fingers into the pie.
Just another example of African corruption.
He’s a muslim. This may come as a surprise to you, but muslims are incompetent business people. They make money only when they have government control of the business — a monopoly. That includes the oil industry in the middle east, which, of course, is operated by non-muslims.
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How it’s done in Africa — The Dangote Way…
In the late 90s, he returned to Nigeria, where he backed the People’s Democratic Party. After the PDP won the election, he used his clout to secure an agreement to build the biggest cement factory in the world — with the stipulation that the government would limit how much cement could pass through Nigeria’s ports. They agreed, and suddenly, Mr. Dangote had taken his cement business, and turned it into the only game in town.
Get it? The Nigerian government granted him monopoly power over an industry. Only the corrupt nations of the world permit this kind of abuse. Actions like this one define the business climate in Africa, which explains the absence of US companies, except on the periphery, such as providing services to the corrupt business leaders. The US government does not permit — though it happens anyway — US companies to pay bribes to foreign governments and bureaucrats.
Obviously the writer of the article about Dangote is so naïve that he doesn’t understand he has presented Dangote as a bribe-paying, anti-competition strongman. And apparently the usual readers don’t get it either.
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you know, i work as a subcontractor for now, for a national restaurant chain, and well i been in about 80 or so stores now for this one, and out of that, only one had the ‘maglock’ on the front door during daylight, and so after the corporate dude left i asked the general manager, why do you do that, ie lock the damn front door on a pizza joint in the day, he said ‘demographics’. trust and believe i let him know that wasn’t the right answer, but up there in that neck of the woods, i haven’t felt nothing like that anywhere else and i been on the hood tour for a couple decades.
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@ Jacque
I agree about school reports. Especially those about Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King, who have been thoroughly disinfected.
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@sb32199
“He’s a nobody on Wall Street, though, because he is black he is a recipient of the Affirmative Action that Wall Street practices. ”
LOL, Rogers founded a company just like the guys you mentioned, and it has performed very well. No one gave him millions of dollars, no one ran his company for him, no one magically made him invest well. Of course racists have a double standards.
“Aliko Dangote? Another African corruption story. He has monopoly control of some industries in Nigeria and in a couple of other nearby nations. ”
Enlighten us on how Dangote is corrupt and which antitrust laws he’s violated. What he did was take a small loan from an uncle and turned it into a billion dollar business.
If you want to talk about monopolies, talk about your boy Bill Gates, whose old Microsoft violated US antitrust laws, and China is probing it as I type.
“Every dollar in her bank accounts came into her possession via her father”
Not true. She wasn’t born a billionaire. Whatever money her father gave her has grown a lot due to her investments and business acumen. She has far more money than her father ever had.
@gro jo
“I’m having trouble figuring out how the daughter of the president of Angola….
She does a considerable amount of business in Europe, FYI, much to the dismay of many Europeans.
“…and a scion of one of the biggest business dynasties of Nigeria would be discriminated against and oppressed.”
Which family was that? The Dangote turned a $3,000 loan from this big business dynasty into a multi-billion dollar company. What nerve of this “scion” to accept such a huge loan! How unfair.
“I suspect that you are extrapolating the US black experience to all blacks everywhere around the world.”
I suspect you wrongly believe that an African cannot be subject to racism in an ethnically diverse African country, especially one that was under British rule until 1960.
“the following links on Zenith bank, the largest bank in Nigeria indicates that it is run and owned by Nigerians.”
Actually First National Bank is the largest, and was started by British, who remain the largest shareholders.
While Zenith Bank is a good Nigerian success story, it doesn’t operate in a Nigerian bubble. It has British shareholders and conducts business internationally.
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@ Jacque
“I noticed that there is civil unrest among POC when there is injustice or perceived injustice. But when are the skinheads, neo conservatives and Neo Nazi’s trotted out? When there is an economic downturn. Look at East Germany, Russia,Great Britain, Greece,Spain….The whites feel entitled. That’s it. Its hard to deny. Communism usually took hold in homogeneous countries..Cuba is an exception.”
I don’t understand the first part. Your remark about communism is wrong, Tsarist Russia was an extremly hereogeneous cociety, in the rest of the Eastern European contries communism was imported through russian troops, the situation of the country played no role at all.
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“Obviously the writer of the article about Dangote is so naïve that he doesn’t understand he has presented Dangote as a bribe-paying, anti-competition strongman. And apparently the usual readers don’t get it either.” Hahaha, sb32199 now tell us how US tycoons made their mints by playing strictly by the rules of free competition. A capitalist’s dream is to kill the competition. Your absurd claim that Dangote got where he is solely due to being given a government license to print money overlooks the fact that his money to pay the requisite bribes along with the acumen to know whom to bribe and how to run the business was inherited from his great grandfather Alhassan Dantata, the king of the west African kola nut trade during colonial Nigeria. Your condescending tone points to your ignorance in these things and nothing else. Your comments on Dos Santos are just as idiotic. New flash genius Blacks, Muslims and non-Muslims have been doing business successfully for centuries. Hell, in 1489 an African trader took over the island of Janjira in India and created an Afro-Indian dynasty, the Sidi nawabs of Janjira, that lasted until 1948 when it was merged into modern India. Try a little harder next time to hide your naivete when you feel like playing Mr. superior white man.
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“I suspect you wrongly believe that an African cannot be subject to racism in an ethnically diverse African country, especially one that was under British rule until 1960.” Sorry but this just wont do, you made a clear assertion that they were discriminated against. I asked you to show proof and all you could comeback with were vague claims about discrimination in general, that tells me that you know of no such instance where either Dangote or Dos Santos were discriminated against. The correct answer to my question should have been that on such and such date so and so prevented them from doing or getting something, because they are black,of a particular religion or in Dos Santos’s case because she is female. “Actually First National Bank is the largest, and was started by British, who remain the largest shareholders.” I gave you links to back my comment, please provide the link backing your claim, or should I just trust you on that? The Businessdayonline.com article I linked to above has Zenith as the biggest bank for Nigeria, I see they have First Bank as third or fourth I don’t see First National Bank listed unless First Bank and First National Bank are different names of the same bank. “While Zenith Bank is a good Nigerian success story, it doesn’t operate in a Nigerian bubble. It has British shareholders and conducts business internationally.” I’m not sure I get your point, I can’t think of any big non-government owned bank anywhere around the world that exists in a bubble and that doesn’t have foreign investors, or doesn’t do business internationally.
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“Which family was that? The Dangote turned a $3,000 loan from this big business dynasty into a multi-billion dollar company. What nerve of this “scion” to accept such a huge loan! How unfair.” Wow, you really believe the Horatio Alger pr myth! See my comments to @sb32199 for the source of the Dangote wealth.
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I laugh when people say “racism will end”. It’s like saying murder will end, stealing will end, or adultery will end. It’s an ugly side of human nature. But as long as humans exist, their will be fault. .
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@ Gro jo
I’m not sure I get your point, I can’t think of any big non-government owned bank anywhere around the world that exists in a bubble and that doesn’t have foreign investors, or doesn’t do business internationally.
Absolutely! I knew resw77 would respond with anything but an actual concrete example of the godawful racism suffered by the two non Americans you are both discussing.
Besides throwing vague ideas about, to push ideas, clichés and false notions, resw77 will simply lie as well when it suits him. I hardly understand why: lying is not needed to demonstrate that racism indeed exists and is a serious problem in the world. It’s terrible to make stuff up on top of the actual injustices that go on.
—————————————————————————
Here is an example of what I mean. In the following conversation I and resw77 still went by our former monikers. He was Resjan, and I was SW6.
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resw77 — Hilarious responses.
Of course every builder of a business dreams about having a monopoly. But in the US, with only a couple of exceptions, monopolies are not permitted. The legal monopolies are utility companies. There’s no benefit to there being more than one gas or one electric company serving a city.
But we now have several cable/satellite TV companies competing to serve every square inch of the country. Cell phone companies are even more competivie. But not in Africa.
One strongman controls an entire region and no other competitor is allowed to operate.
As for Bill Gates and China, you really don’t know much. China steals everything. If there’s an anti-trust suit in the works, it was filed by Microsoft against China for their incessant stealing. Apple has the same problem. Every company doing business in China knows that going to China opens the door to theft of proprietary information and loss of trade secrets. But, it’s still worth it.
Anyway, all you have to do is read the little tales of how the African entrepreneurs became wealthy. Every story is the same. They got a government license to operate a business without competition, and based on the license, certain banks were willing to fund the projects.
You don’t really believe Dangote knows anything about building or running an oil refinery, do you? But he and the bankers and Exxon/BP etc know what it means when he gets an exclusive license with the Nigerian government. It’s legal there. It’s a license to print money. But it’s the definition of corruption in the leading nations of the world.
John Rogers. Nope, like I said, he’s nobody. I’m familiar with his company due to my own work on Wall Street. He’s nobody other than another recipient of Affirmative Action. And almost every Wall Street firm founded and headed by a black has gone down in flames. Usually there’s some dipping into the customer’s money and usually there’s some substance abuse and sometimes everything breaks into the open when the founder dies in bed with a bottle of vodka, an ounce of coke and the hooker runs out the door.
Perhaps the story of WR Lazard will amuse you.
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Isabel Dos Dantos — every dollar she has resulted from exclusive contracts made possible by her father. She is the walking definition of corruption. She couldn’t survive in the US business world because it’s not possible to buy dominance here. The government and your competitors won’t stand for it.
Except when the government is the monopolist, as it is with the public school system.
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@grojo
“Sorry but this just wont do, you made a clear assertion that they were discriminated against.”
I actually made a general statement about all blacks in business, including Rogers and any other successful black entrepreneurs, and you chose to focus on Dangote and Dos Santos, based on the naive assumption that discrimination and oppression doesn’t exist in Africa or in international commerce.
” I gave you links to back my comment, please provide the link backing your claim, or should I just trust you on that”
If you doubt the fact that First Bank is the largest bank in Nigeria, which is a tangential point anyway, it doesn’t hurt me one bit. If you doubt that and the fact that it was started by Brits, then it should be very easy for you to disprove. I’ll wait.
“See my comments to @sb32199 for the source of the Dangote wealth.”
No thanks, I’ll just wait for you to provide me photocopies of the source, date, page number and specific paragraph that prove he got all his money from his great-grandfather, the exact amount, date it was given to him, etc.
“I’m not sure I get your point, I can’t think of any big non-government owned bank anywhere around the world that exists in a bubble and that doesn’t have foreign investors, or doesn’t do business internationally.”
And that’s precisely why post-colonial economic exploitation works so well.
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@sb32199
“But in the US, with only a couple of exceptions, monopolies are not permitted. ”
Right, and that’s why your boy Bill Gates’ old company, Microsoft, was found guilty in court for violating antitrust laws. See, e.g., U.S. v. Microsoft, and why the European Commission fined it $730M after its antitrust investigation.
Again, why do I have to teach you everything?
“If there’s an anti-trust suit in the works, it was filed by Microsoft against China for their incessant stealing.”
No, in fact China’s State Administration of Industry and Commerce launched an antitrust probe, which Microsoft has acknowledged. You’re the only one simple enough to deny it.
“They got a government license to operate a business without competition, and based on the license, certain banks were willing to fund the projects.”
No, Dangote doesn’t have a government license to operate a business without competition. Just another lie you made up to make yourself look even more foolish.
“He’s nobody other than another recipient of Affirmative Action. ”
Wow, I had no idea affirmative action could start his business for him and make him invest wisely, delivering consistently solid returns for his clients. Or perhaps you’re just jealous because you couldn’t make it on Wall Street. Cheer up, you’ll find another job.
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“I actually made a general statement about all blacks in business, including Rogers and any other successful black entrepreneurs, and you chose to focus on Dangote and Dos Santos, based on the naive assumption that discrimination and oppression doesn’t exist in Africa or in international commerce.” That’s what I thought, hence my comment about your extrapolating from the Black American experience. You could have saved me the trouble of refuting your groundless claim with facts. I’m amused by your pretense to care about facts when you wrote the following “No thanks, I’ll just wait for you to provide me photocopies of the source, date, page number and specific paragraph that prove he got all his money from his great-grandfather, the exact amount, date it was given to him, etc.” Until I pointed it out to you above, you didn’t even suspect that the uncle he got the ‘$3,000’ you thought he turned into $25 billion was the grandson of Alhassan Dantata the kola nut magnate. That’s the reason you put my description of the man as a scion of that powerful family in quotes. I’ll hazard the guess that his mother inherited a nice sum. Your claims concerning First Bank are just as groundless. As for the ignorant sb32199, his stupidity makes him a poor foil for you since you two resemble each other. This genius knows nothing, but that doesn’t stop him from writing garbage, sad to say that you are only marginally better. Next time you want to score points in a debate don’t invent nonsense that’s easily refuted. The idea that Dangote or Folorunso Alakija are modern day exemplars of the Horatio Alger myth is false. They started life as the children of very rich people and had the brains to keep and improve on their patrimonies. Nothing wrong with that, that’s how most rich people do it. I’m done with this nonsense.
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resw77
John Rogers money management firm, like all legitimate operators, posts its results;
https://www.arielinvestments.com/performance/
The best claim that can be made is that he’s average. But in virtually every category his performance is so close to his benchmarks that there’s no point in paying him to do what can be done for free through an index fund or ETF.
But, that’s the money management game.
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While the ideas of the this article are admirable – as noted – a key part of this is leadership. Could we get enough leaders to support what is suggested in this article? Even if we could, could we get said leaders into power if they weren’t already?
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@gro jo
“hence my comment about your extrapolating from the Black American experience”
Although it’s obviously news to you, discrimination and oppression is not unique to Black Americans.
“I’m amused by your pretense to care about facts when you wrote the following”
I’m amused at your difficulty you have following along. My comment mocked your earlier request for me to spoon-feed you detailed citations and page numbers from an encyclopedia I referenced. In other words, sarcasm.
“Until I pointed it out to you above, you didn’t even suspect that the uncle he got the ‘$3,000′ you thought he turned into $25 billion was the grandson of Alhassan Dantata the kola nut magnate. ”
All I said was he got a small loan from an uncle. The only thing I didn’t suspect was the lie you told that he received lots of money from a great-grandfather whom he NEVER even met.
But again, I’ll just wait for your evidence of how much his dead great-grandfather gave him, how much it was and on what date it was given. Maybe it was his ghost. I’ve got a rich great-grandfather I’ve never met too. I guess that must mean I was given lots of money to start my business too, eh?
“I’ll hazard the guess that his mother inherited a nice sum. ”
Oh, so now it’s guesswork. How scholarly of you. I guess that must mean my mother inherited a “nice sum” from my rich great-grandfather and that she in turn gave it all to me. I guess I’ll see that money someday.
“Your claims concerning First Bank are just as groundless. ”
And clearly that’s guesswork too, since the claims I made are 100% accurate. Come back when you have some facts.
“Next time you want to score points in a debate don’t invent nonsense that’s easily refuted. ”
And yet you haven’t refuted anything. Not one thing. Or maybe I should wait for all this evidence that you demand to see, but refuse to show. Not even sb32199 is that bad.
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resw77,
Obviously you don’t know the difference between a Settlement and a Verdict. Microsoft was not found liable (in criminal cases, the verdict is “guilty or not guilty”. In civil cases, the defendant is found “liable” or not.) in the civil suit.
But in the interest of bringing the government harassment to an end, the company “settled” with the government and agreed to institute some changes in its operations.
The changes made no difference in the company. And no money was forked over to the government. It was amusing that the government argued that Microsoft was a monopoly when nothing stopped competitors from using the operating system of their choice to run their computers.
Apple, for example, has its own. And there is UNIX. The government went through the same failed exercise with IBM. However, one monopoly the government broke up was the Bell Telephone monopoly. However, it truly was a monopoly and after the Supreme Court ordered its break-up in 1984, the telephone industry began a period of explosive growth which has yet to slow down.
Of course the government allowed Bell to operate as a monopoly to ensure that basic telephone service was made available everywhere in the US to virtually everyone. Like the Post Office, which is still granted the privilege of holding the monopoly on First Class Mail. It’s long past time for that to end too.
You also seem naïve on the topic of government extorting cash from big companies that have some to spare. Again, a payment is generally a “settlement” which makes the litigation go away. And the settlement usually includes a statement from the government acknowledging that “the company neither admits nor denies…”
China? The Chinese just want industrial secrets. Grow up.
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@Jeff Elberfeld
“Too bad you do not want to provide the actual texts with us. What are you afraid of?”
Hey, if you’re too lazy and/or cheap to go look in the encyclopaediae I referenced then that’s not my problem. I’m not your secretary or research asst.
“If you meant to say that the 6.5 million figure was about 1939”
Whether it’s 1938 or 1939, where’s the evidence of the dramatic rise in population?
“Is that enough as a dramatic rise for you?”
Are you serious? That doesn’t show a rise in population, that shows phony estimates for minimum and maximum LOSSES in the Holocaust. There’s no source for those numbers anyway. And besides, I asked you to prove that Jewish population in Nazi-occupied Europe rose dramatically from 1939 to 1944, and you gave me death estimates.
If you have no evidence for a dramatic Jewish population rise from 1938/1939 to 1944, then why do you care that the encyclopaedia’s population figure is from 1938, 1939 or 1942?
“Yeah what was the point of the 5,6 million in your maths anyway?”
Actually that’s 5,8, but I mentioned it b/c I knew someone like you would come along and use the bogus argument you pulled out of that silly book.
“Who said “that 6 million Jews were killed in Nazi concentration camps”
Well, I’ll rephrase: 6 million Jews were killed by Nazis primarily in concentration camps and “kiling centres”
And again, how does any of what you said prove that 6 million Jews were murdered in the “Holocaust”?
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@sb32199
“Obviously you don’t know the difference between a Settlement and a Verdict. ”
Obviously you don’t know nothing at all about case law.
The US district court judge’s conclusions of law (findings of fact) found Microsoft in violation of US antitrust laws, a fact, whether you know it or not. On appeal, the judge did not reverse the lower court’s findings of fact and remanded to the district court for a different penalty. DOJ decided not to break up Microsoft and Microsoft proposed a settlement.
Once again, you have no clue what you’re talking about.
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resw77,
Microsoft wasn’t required to pay damages or change its operations due to a court order. The “settlement” allowed Microsoft to keep doing what it had been doing.
You don’t understand that even when nothing happens, the Federal prosecutors want to make it appear as though they got the best of the defendant.
I’m sure it’s painful for you, but if you keep looking at the records you’ll find that Microsoft was ultimately untouched by the court’s actions.
Meanwhile, if Dangote tried his tactics here in the US, he’d be prosecuted on a criminal level.
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@americanasanguine: So how do you propose to get massive amounts of whites to know that true knowledge of their history? And where does one get this knowledge from? Obviously the standard school curriculum doesn’t cut the mustard, otherwise we wouldn’t be having this discussion. You mentioned how one of the friend was “a lifelong student of European and world history.” Do you think it should be incumbent upon most whites to do it to that level? Is that what will be needed to truly begin to stomp racism dead? And when you mention “world history”, that means non-European history, right — does that include it just as much from the perspective of the world’s people of color, as opposed to just white-written and from a “white” perspective?
What do you think of jefe’s comment here? Do you believe this is a good way for history to be taught or studied?:
It mentions six different angles for which one (presumably, everyone) should learn history. The first is the history of “oneself and one’s ‘own people'”, which would seem to encompass the type of history you are talking about. Getting the real and true history of the people as opposed to racist or national mythology. The second is the history of your country, which will include both the perspective of one’s “own people” and also the other people of that country, i.e. in America, that means learning it from the perspective of people of color as much as from a white perspective. The third angle is the history of the region in which you live, which means also of the people that were there before your country was formed or evolved to its present form, and the natural history of the region as well. And it would emphasize the views of previous peoples over those of the present peoples. The fourth angle is the history of the world, demographically weighted (meaning it’s going to be mostly POC history, not white European history). The fifth and sixth angles are special interest areas. I’d propose also a seventh angle as well: “Big History” — the broad history of the universe and the planet Earth to put humanity into its far more immense cosmological context. This would include a proper appreciation of deep and cosmic time, stretching from the Big Bang up to the dawn of humans.
I’d be curious to see how such a history curriculum would be assembled. I’d sure like to be able to learn such a comprehensive treatment of history.
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Those are good ideas about how to create an alternate universe where the white collective changes (specifically, in America). I don’t think this could actually happen but the steps would certainly have to involve destruction of a worldview.
One problem is that those with the greatest power to effect sudden social changes are the ones who benefit from an unjust system. Therefore there is a positive feedback in favor of more and more inequality.
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@mike4ty4,
Are you saying that you like the idea of learning history from 6 angles like that?
I do think that they way history is taught should be completely revamped. I think the purpose should be to teach students how to learn history and why they should learn history and then go and do it.
The purpose of angle #5 is not purely for special interest purposes, but to give students experience learning about a history of a people that is not “their own” by researching it.
The purpose of angle #6 was to give students the experience learning about a history that is not specific to a particular peoples or country.
In any case, #1-#6 will not come out of a single textbook, esp. one written based on white American mythology, unless that is the subject of one of the “special interest” topics.
The angles #1-#6 all deal with human history, particularly during the period of recorded history.
Your angle #7, while certain dealing with history, is more dependent on the application of other disciplines for its research, e.g., geology, astronomy, biology and the anthropology of prehistoric man – History of the Earth, the solar system, the universe. Wordynerdygirl and Bulanik mentioned it in the the thread you referenced.
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“I’d propose also a seventh angle as well: “Big History” — the broad history of the universe and the planet Earth to put humanity into its far more immense cosmological context. This would include a proper appreciation of deep and cosmic time, stretching from the Big Bang up to the dawn of humans.”
This excellent comment is about to get me off on a tangent. I was trying to resist because I don’t want to derail the thread but…
That’s a really deep and beautiful concept. I believe this sense of our palce in the big picture is the way in which many people considered primitive are ahead of the world in which we now live. Our existence within this civilization is characterized by a kind of disconnection that permeates every aspect of our relation to each other and to the world. Though I’ve kind of accepted it as demonstrative of the effects of such a viewpoint.
Over the past few years I’ve experienced a uniting of my readings of ‘scientific thought’ with a study of the beliefs of some people in Africa and India. When their invaders were more ignorant their saying things like “the cosmic seed” or “the cosmic egg” must have sounded really strange. Yet with re-search yielding theories such as the “big bang” the analogy is clear. The idea is that the universe grew out a of pre-existing potential just as a plant grows from a seed. (I believe Ancient Egyptian Atum/’seed’ and Khepri/growth also represent this idea) The pre-existing potential is a quiescent state that is represented by their often aloof or “sleeping” high ‘god’ (in quotes because that’s a term with many connotations). Since processes at quiescence resulted in a universe emerging it is sometimes represented as dream or illusion of the high god. Simply put, it’s a simulated universe concept that presents consciousness or spirit as an independent thing rather than something that emerges from certain combinations of matter. Matter is seen as coming about as a result of the spirit (the subject) seeing aspects of itself as object. Therefore the physical universe (interesting etymology) could be seen as arising as a part of a process of cosmic introspection. I started to understand some ancient symbols and myths better from this standpoint.
Certain aspects of this view (esp. the idea that reality is illusory on a certain level of thought) are not widely accepted today in the western world. The primacy of matter is necessary for a completely materialistic way of life to thrive. Yet a well respected scientist once said something rather interesting:
“Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.” -Albert Einstien
Science (as we know it anyway) tells us today that atoms are anything but indivisible. In fact, they are mostly (> 99%) empty space. One could say that they are ‘nothing’ at the limit because scientists keep finding more subatomic particles which are themselves mostly empty. Then there is quantum mechanics that turns everything on its head by starting from ‘quantum wave functions’ rather than any objectively existing thing. They find the model promising but they’re left with the question: what makes the possibilities settle into the particularities we observe? I think the ancients would answer ‘unitive consciousness’ of which we’re all a part in some way. I can see how that would help to create coherent communities and keep the demons of excessive individualism (or selfishness) at bay.
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I don’t think America will ever be a truly “multiracial” society. There is an increase in interracial dating and more tolerance for gays and people of other races but let’s face it, racism will always exist. It will never go away. America was founded on racism and the enslavement of African slaves and taking away land from Native Americans. And racism is still ingrained in the American culture and psych of Americans. So I don’t see how America could move away from racism and it’s racist past when one of the country’s founding principles was racism. America will always be a racist country.
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Sadly, I think Adeen may be right – at least for the foreseeable future.
My country, UK, was also shaped largely by racism, enslavement, imperial oppression and exploitation. I used to think that Britain was becoming less racist. I was one of those annoying, oblivious, naive white people who only saw the tip of the racism iceberg and so assumed that was all there was. These days I see new far-right hate groups springing up all over, and I see them gaining more support and, it seems, more mainstream acceptance.
I don’t know which is truly growing faster, racism or my ability to recognise more of its disguises. I suspect both, but mostly the former.
Some here are aware of my Anarchist-communist politics. I dread a reset-event of the magnitude that has been mentioned here. It would cause unimaginable pain to all. But, without something as drastic as that to wipe away the entrenched evil in men’s souls and the evil systems that we have built… Well, I just think the odds are stacked against a fair and equal society. Ever.
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** Missed out a sentence above.
Should have read:
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@Buddhuu
Thanks for proving my point. I live in the USA and I don’t see racism going away anytime soon. America is just as racist as ever before. Racism will always exist no matter what we do. It is our job as tolerant individuals for teach our future generations to be more accepting and tolerant of other races, ethnicities and people of different religions.
I see many rightwing groups coming up here in America too because of their opposition of a ”Black” (I digress calling President Obama Black because he is a product of a White American mother and a Black African Kenyan father) president and his policies. Many racists have come out of the closet since President Obama has been elected. And many White Americans are disgruntled that interracial dating, homosexuality and diversity is becoming more acceptable and fear losing their power in this country.
There was even an incident where the owner of an NBA basketball team, the Clippers, Don Sterling was video taped telling his mixed race half Mexican half Black mistress, V Stiviano not to bring Black people to the basketball games. That is ironic considering the fact that the basketball team, Clippers that Don Sterling owns is made up of majority African American men. And Don Sterling has a history of discriminating against Hispanic and Black homeowners in the housing market too.
The whole incident was crazy.
If so much powerful and wealthy people in America are racist and don’t want the poor and non White minorities to have any power or wealth, then I don’t see America becoming a multiracial country that promotes equality.
America is just as racist as ever before.
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@Adeen: Hello, young queen so good to see you. Loved you comments, wel said. Good to read you.
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@buddhuu: Great to read you as well. Everytime i hear a song from “The Clash” I think of you. LOL!
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@Mary Burrell
Nice to see you again. How are you? I haven’t seen or heard from you in a while.
I decided to comment on this article because I don’t believe that America is really heading in the direction of actually being an multiracial country that promotes and practices equality in education, economics, socially or politically. America is just as racist as ever before and Blacks, the poor and minorities still suffer from educational, social, economic and political disparities that holds them back. Honestly when I think of multiculturalism, I think of Brazil.
There are many mixed race people in Brazil and the country professes itself as multicultural nation that accepts all people yet poverty and lack of opportunities disproportionally affects the Black and brown population of Brazil. Now something doesn’t sound to me there. How can you promote multiculturalism when your Black and brown citizens don’t have the same opportunities and living conditions as their light skin or White counterparts that live in the SAME country?
I want to believe in multiculturalism. I want to believe that America is moving towards being a multiracial utopia where everyone is accept but I just can’t. It doesn’t work that way in real life. Studying Brazil and other Latin American countries show me that multiracial societies doesn’t cure or get rid of institutionalized racism or prejudice. It just shows me that this colorblind, multiracial utopia is just a fantasy for those who wish we lived in such a world. We don’t.
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@Adeen:Well said.
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I do believe that people are growing more tolerant however I don’t think we will ever live in a colorblind, multiracial country. That is just fantasy. We must live in the real world
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The kind of world we desire to live and be a part of is intimately tied to the kind of world we believe is possible. If cannot imagine a world or America (they are not the same by the way!) as a fair, justice and equal society ALL.can live and be a part of. Then that world will never come into being or existence. The same applies to the way we think about racism. If we believe this will never be eradicated then that will be the experience for us.
If we honestly believe such a world is NOT possible or UN-realistic then which world are we consciously saying we support the continued existence of?
This is just basic reasoned logic!
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Thanks, Kiwi!
I’ve been going back and forth between threads so much that I got confused.
@Abagond,
Please delete my post to Jeff Elberfeld (and this one), as it should’ve been on the holocaust thread.
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@Kwambla
Get real, White supremacy will never truly go away as long as the powers to be keeps it alive and benefits from the system. I would like to believe in multiculturalism and multiracialism but America will never be a multiracial country. America was a racist country from it’s inception and will continue to be a racist country. Nothing is going to change that.
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@sb32199
“Microsoft wasn’t required to pay damages or change its operations due to a court order. The “settlement” allowed Microsoft to keep doing what it had been doing.”
Aren’t you tired of being wrong? First, I never said the settlement required Microsoft paid damages. Second, contrary to your inaccurate claim, the settlement reached required Microsoft to share its programming interfaces with third-parties and give records and source code to a panel and prohibits Microsoft from conducting certain retaliatory conduct, among other things.
Clearly it is you who needs to read the settlement agreement. Because, once again, you’re talking about things you know not.
“Meanwhile, if Dangote tried his tactics here in the US, he’d be prosecuted on a criminal level.”
And, again, what tactics are those? I’m still waiting.
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@ Adeen
This is why I say check the logic of your thinking Adeen!
If you believe, as you say:
“…America was a racist country from it’s inception and will continue to be a racist country. Nothing is going to change that…”
Then STOP complaining about eliminating racism and believing in “multiculturalism and multiracialism! You’ve just said these things cannot happen or change.
So start living with that reality!
(Please note: its Kwamla NOT Kwambla !)
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Kartoffel,resw77-prehaps unintentional,sb32199
excellent job of derailing
I suspect persons like Kartoffel would much rather see a catastrophic disaster occur or perhaps consider equality and justice for black ,native american and latino’s as a catastrophic disaster.
americanasanguine
“The usual narrative that goes around is that their ancestors came from nothing, didn’t own slaves (like that would make a difference to
me), worked hard, learned the language, and now they see being “white” as one big collective family that has these qualities. ”
“The truth of the matter is far more complicated which includes plenty of white inter-ethnic violence (that didn’t really stop until rather
recently), plenty of people who never really mastered the English language (my friend who visited Eastern Europe had relatives that only
spoke Polish until the day they died even though they were naturalized citizens), and white gang violence that makes the black and Latino
gangs of today look like boyscouts in comparison. ”
summed up the truth about the white american population as apposed to the delusion….
Jacque
“I noticed that there is civil unrest among POC when there is injustice or perceived injustice. But when are the skinheads, neo
conservatives and Neo Nazi’s trotted out? When there is an economic downturn. Look at East Germany, Russia,Great Britain,
Greece,Spain….The whites feel entitled. That’s it. Its hard to deny. ”
This boils down to how to teach away a feeling of entitlement based on a faulty sense of superiority? White people have the general
outlook that there are not enough resources on this planet to go around. They truly feel this way.”
maybe its due to a pervasive sense of inadequacy as a result of lacking skin pigmentation.
Reparations: Crimes against humanity, like slavery, genocide and Jim Crow, have no statute of limitation.
thats what gets me about current european and especially american law specifically and morality in general,
most current white americans especially police officers ,have this stance that they of all people are “law” abiding and moral at the same time complete refuse to even discuss their racism or the fact that much of their ancestors conduct would be highly illegal currently.
Also I note the pessimism of a few of our regular commentors,on another blog “but same host server” the optimism fortified by loads of
technical resources of a poster makes this view seem almost absurdly short sighted.
the blog is about the technological developments leading to whats known as a singularity
Over the next 40 years or so Whites will have to come to terms with becoming a minority.
how about within or around the end of those forty years having a static phenotype – that is a phenotype your born with and thus you group
identify with those of similar phenotype – becomes obsolete , so much for minority majority politics….
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@Kwamla
your application of reasoned logic is excellent however I’m sure your aware that ,reasoned logic and intelligence is currently not equitably distributed amongst our species.
I also find unfortunate but slightly amusing how members of our species regularly make statements which include the word never ,a word depicting a infinite future said by extremely finite beings in both experience and knowledge.
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I’m loving the new jet covers ,black female beauty through the decades um um.
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@Kwamla or whatever you call yourself on here
I am not talking about eliminating White supremacy. It will never go away. My point is racism will never go away no matter how much people mix with other races. I doubt you even read ALL of my posts on here to even see my point. And that is the reality I live with and I am content with that.
P.S. I wasn’t complaining. I happen to be passionate about issues that affect me as a young, Black woman living in America especially when it comes to racism, sexism, interracial dating etc. So how am I complaining when I am just writing my opinion about a topic on here?
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Damn…..these stupid trolls on here sure can get on my nerves. I will stay off of here for a while to cool off because sometimes these trolls get on my nerves.
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@Mbeti
Yes, sb32199 derails all the time, but I don’t mind being the one to put him in his place.
“I suspect persons like Kartoffel would much rather see a catastrophic disaster occur or perhaps consider equality and justice for black ,native american and latino’s as a catastrophic disaster.”
That’s what he’s saying (the former statement). I think it’s veiled communism.
I simply think reparations are justified from the US and any other gov’t that has wronged certain groups of people and denied them opportunities to obtain and pass down wealth. Clearly the US govt was found to have done this, and the billion-dollar Pigford settlement with black farmers for USDA discrimination is a step in the right direction, but not nearly enough since the government did much worse to non-whites in many areas and for many many years.
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Mary Burrell said,
LOL!
Thanks, Mary. 🙂 That means a lot to a Clash fan!
(Coincidentally, at the age of 54 I have just joined my first punk band as guitarist!)
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For a multi-racial, egalitarian society to develop, this has to stop:
http://www.brooklyneagle.com//articles/both-suspects-caught-despicable-robbery-and-beating-midwood-2014-08-01-150000
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resw77,
As I said, the Microsoft “settlement” was a non-event. The code sharing was temporary.
Meanwhile, you were attempting to argue that US corporations were regular abusers of anti-trust laws. Your best example was the non-event of Microsoft, which was a media event, but not an example of a monopoly undergoing a bust-up by the federal government.
So, you should stick to the topic as you defined it. I repeat that Dangote and every big-daddy African business leader is, by every definition used for anti-trust litigation in the US, a monopolist who pays off those needing payments. That might mean the leader of the country, or it might mean a series of bureaucrats.
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Kwamla said,
What you say is, of course, valid. Starting out with a defeatist frame of mind isn’t a great first step.
That said, I can imagine that better world – in some detail, including the principles by which people might need to live in order for it to work. Generations of thinkers have made it pretty easy to envisage (for me those guys included Kropotkin, Bakunin and USA’s Murray Bookchin).
The problem is not of one of vision or desire for a better world, nor even lack or willingness to work or fight for it. The huge issue for me, and I can only speak for myself, is that the establishment will fight with all its overwhelming wealth and power to make sure that we, the REAL people can never free ourselves. Even democracy is loaded against us having real ‘grass roots’ influence over the directions our countries take.
Just because the odds against substantial improvement are overwhelming in no way diminishes my determination, nor that of my ideological brothers.
Don’t confuse pessimism with realism, nor trepidation with apathy. Hell, there’s no way I’m going to avoid dying sometime, but I still get out of bed and live and love.
Onwards and upwards. Do or die.
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Apologies. In my post above I should have said “ideological brothers and sisters”.
Unconscious sexism.
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@resw77
nice to know where you stand on reparations and I agree completely.
As to the derail thing ,I kinda knew it wasn’t you ,I fortunate in my misfortune as I don’t have time to waste on those who are mostly a waste of time.
Not that you where wasting yours.
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@sb32199
“Meanwhile, you were attempting to argue that US corporations were regular abusers of anti-trust laws. ”
You called Dangote a monopolist, and I said that Gates, whom you brought up, has had his company be ruled as violative of federal antitrust laws in the US and in Europe, and elsewhere. You are in denial of the facts, and still have not been able to tell us how Dangote has violated any antitrust laws, because you have no basis to back up your claims, per usual.
“For a multi-racial, egalitarian society to develop, this has to stop”
And so does this:
http://www.chron.com/neighborhood/spring/news/article/Fatal-Spring-shooting-leaves-5-dead-suspect-5610401.php
Newsflash, sb32199: pale people like you kill too, and quite often.
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@ Adeen,
“…I am not talking about eliminating White supremacy. It will never go away. My point is racism will never go away no matter how much people mix with other races. I doubt you even read ALL of my posts on here to even see my point. And that is the reality I live with and I am content with that. ..”
If you are of the view or opinion that Racism (white supremacy) will never go away. Then you cannot avoid the logical conclusion in your own mind it must be natural – like having sex – and something that will always be with us.
To something which is not biological but a social construct that is giving an awful lot of power just to a simple belief….
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@ Buddhuu
“…Just because the odds against substantial improvement are overwhelming in no way diminishes my determination, nor that of my ideological brothers.
Don’t confuse pessimism with realism, nor trepidation with apathy. Hell, there’s no way I’m going to avoid dying sometime, but I still get out of bed and live and love…”
If your pessimism becomes you realism or reality. Then what would be the point of getting out of bed every morning?
In most cases its not really about being pessimistic or optimistic because both states are fundamentally influenced by what beliefs we cling to (unchallenged) which underpin those positions.
If we believe the odds against substantial improvement are overwhelming then we are just kidding ourselves by being optimistic for sake of it!.
Instead we need to look for and invest in more empowering beliefs which will impact our understanding and desire for the positive way we say we wish to experience reality. Beliefs which serve us NOT against us!
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@ Mbeti
“…I also find unfortunate but slightly amusing how members of our species regularly make statements which include the word never ,a word depicting a infinite future said by extremely finite beings in both experience and knowledge…
Of course, that is an excellent and true point…
I would add to it as: Knowledge, experience and perception!
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