What if everything about whites and blacks in America were the other way round?
- America is only 13% white. Whites were brought from Europe as slaves, later freed by President Tubman.
- Presidents are nearly always black.
- One Drop Rule: anyone lighter than a brown paper bag or with known white ancestors is “white”. So:
- Barack Obama is the first white president.
- Halle Berry is good-looking for a white girl.
- Langston Hughes is a famous white writer of the Harlem Renaissance, along with Ernest Hemingway and F. Scott Fitzgerald.
- Angela Davis is a famous white revolutionary.
- beauty: Some white women bronze their skin, wear brown eye contacts.
- hair: White women have dreadlocks, corn rows, put chemicals in their hair for an Afro, wear African wigs, etc. Many colour their hair black – bottled brunettes, many with yellow, brown or red roots. Black women touch their hair without asking.
- Vogue: nearly all the models are black. This month: “Queen of England”, showing a black model in whiteface.
- Miss America: Nearly always black. Vanessa Williams was the first white woman to win.
- Pamela Anderson – white trash beauty: ghetto boobs, hanging yellow hair, barbarian blue eyes. She has limited appeal.
- music: whites invent jazz by bringing together European and African music.
- film:
- Most Disney princesses are black.
- Most film heroes are black men.
- Whites play white best friends and white trash stereotypes.
- Halle Berry is the only white woman to win an Oscar for Best Actress – even though Meryl Streep is way better.
- Gabrielle Union stars in “The Blind Side” where she saves a poor white boy from a life of poverty and violence. He becomes a sports star at her university. What a nice lady!
- television:
- White Entertainment Television: shows reruns of “Roseanne”, “Dukes of Hazard”, Vanessa Williams films, country music videos with half-naked women, NASCAR races, etc. Black-owned with white content, unlike the rest of television, which is black-owned with black content.
- history: Most do not know about the Greeks and Romans, much less about Athens, Aristotle, Julius Caesar or Alexander the Great. World history means West Africa, the Arabs, Egypt. American history means the history of African Americans. Europe is a land of barbarians where they sold their own into slavery.
- White History Month: schoolchildren do reports on famous whites like Booker T. Washington, the first white man to dine with the president at the Black House.
- The melting pot: where blacks wiped out the Indians, steered whites and other genetic sewage into ghettos and allowed any pure African to become a Real American.
- George Zimmerman is killed by a black neighbourhood watchman, Tracy Martin. The black police chief does not arrest Martin till 45 days later after many protests. President Obama says that if he had a son he would look like George Zimmerman.
- The average IQ of Europe is 70 – as proved by IQ tests written in Arabic. Like the Neanderthals, whites seem to be an evolutionary dead end.
See also:
- One Drop Rule
- If blacks ran Hollywood like whites do
- If black women were white women
- “Blacks are just as racist!”
- “white is right”
- What if it were reversed and blacks had guns and ocean-going ships before whites did? – wherein I argue that a technological edge does not always lead to genocide.
Wow! An eye opener and very thought provoking.
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What if everything about whites and blacks in America were the other way round?
The whole country would be like Detroit.
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Have you ever read the Noughts and Crosses novel’s. The whole premise of the books is what if things were flipped. Even though the books are “young adult” novels, the points they bring out in the story are very thought provoking.
Like why most band-aids are flesh colored, aka pinkish tan. What if it were switched and most band-aids were brown. Simple every day things we don’t usually think about.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noughts_%26_Crosses_%28novel_series%29
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Oooh. And Humans wouldn’t be referred to as “Pink-Skins” by various aliens in fiction.
That’s just a minor grievance of mine. Do you know how few humans have skin that is actually pink, even among white people?
I suppose that’s one plus to this scenario.
I imagine that quite a few other misconceptions would be less likely to exist as well, like those based on the supposedly universally recessive nature of “white” genes and traits.
Really, that just creates this weird sort of paranoia about “racial purity” and maintaining the features of the race or something stupid like that. Or wanting a child who “looks like them”.
I suppose I’ve gotten off-topic, but I’ve never seen a bi-racial individual who didn’t look like the child of both of their parents.
Though to be honest when I was younger I thought Halle Berry was white…
@Ashley
I think the word you’re looking for is “beige”.
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It’s funny you should mention this. I was thinking about this just the other day. You see the world was just as you described long, long ago. There was this big get together and it was the Black mans turn to host. Now the story gets sketchy here but somehow Sadam (aka Adam) and Sheba (Eve) stole the tree of knowledge and as is their nature claimed it now belonged to them. They stole all the fruit and rewrote all the history to cover their trail. Everyone knew what they had done and punished them by taking their skin color away.
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I do believe that half the blacks in America would be considered simply “white” in Africa. Terrence Howard would be a white guy, whereas Don Cheadle is just barely able to conceal his European ancestry and “pass” as black.
Barack Obama would be lumped in the same category as the Chinese (which many Africans also label as “white”).
I do believe part-white multi-racial Americans who have travelled overseas understand this phenomenon very well.
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Churches: The whole country would be like Detroit.
-Detroit considered “Too White to Fail”
-Powerful Detroit lobbies successfully for Earmarks and Pork spending
-Detroit awarded Federal funds for “Highway to Nowhere Project”
-Black Street rallies to invest and offer loans to Detroit businesses
-Mostly Black Detroit farmers awarded Federal Farm Aid = more than Welfare
-Construction companies awarded state funds to rebuild Detroit
-5% of the construction jobs set aside fir Whites and Black women
-Detroit declared an “All American” City
-Hipster Blacks begin to gentrify the run down White districts
-Detroit held up as an example of recovery to Appalachia and Southern Whites
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Oops! First Line” -Detroit considered “Too Black to Fail”
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“If” Black Women Were White Women
August 23, 2009
In “If Men Could Menstruate,” Gloria Steinem makes the persuasive argument that “Whatever a ‘superior’ group has will be used to justify its superiority, and whatever an ‘inferior’ group has will be used to justify its plight.”
For too long the definition of racism has been a fight between white and black manhood or “who’s the bigger man”, so to speak. We’ve trivialized the existence of gender between both groups of men in favor for discussion of the “bigger issue”.
This has historically enabled white female supremacy—the most unchallenged form of white supremacy—to escape any critical thought.
What if suddenly, instantly, the power of white femininity were transferred to black women?
The answer is clear: Black women would represent value, purity; and based on their natural traits would be worthy of protection and instantly become the objects of universal desire. White women would represent the opposite.
“Beauty tar potion” would become globally popular to get the “black look.” “Dove” would be replaced with a black soap called “Raven” to help exfoliate the skin and bring out subtle hints of melanin.
White female features would be declared violent. Their “jagged” thin lips, “knife sharp” noses, and “harsh” jaw lines would be nature’s way of expressing why men have a natural preference for the soft features of black women. Soft lips, soft cheekbones, and soft, round noses would be proof of natural femininity. Full, pink lips and large, dark eyes would become associated with virginal black girls whose purity must not be compromised. Black female features would thus be said to represent youth.
Straight, blond hair would be considered “wild and unruly” because when the wind blew, it did not stay in place. Women with naturally straight hair would hide their “unruly” and “wild” stick-straight hair in public. The desire for “lightweight hair” that defied gravity would permanently end the use of blow dryers. Keeping one’s natural blond hair wild and straight would become indicative of a political statement.
The anti-aging properties of black female skin combined with soft, curvy bodies would be proof of the overall reproductive health of black women. Scientists would argue that black women were naturally preferred as long term mates and mothers because they were “healthier.” Men’s attraction to women is based on overall health and fertility, after all.
Suddenly, biracial women would be “in” because the hard features of white women wouldn’t prevent the fragile genes of “black beauty” from peeking through. Men would suddenly have the desire to date “ethnic,” non-black women since they would look “closer to black” than blond women—at least they wouldn’t look like white women.
Statistics would equate the fact that white women make up the majority with their “overpowering” and “strong” population. This would be proof that they could handle unsafe neighborhoods. The “strong culture” they would have created amongst themselves would enable them to withstand their lack of protection from predators and criminals. Statisticians would argue that men were attracted to black women innately because they made up a small percentage of the population. “We tend to value what is rare,” they might say.
Men would proclaim that white women deserve sexual objectification because “flat buttocks” allow for deeper penetration. In ghettos across America, men would stand on street corners and yell “Damn! You got a flat ass!” to remind white women of their sexual status in society.
Upper class women would be afraid that their “asses looked flat” since it would represent animalistic and sexual deviance, like white women. Black women’s buttocks, said to protrude farther from the body, would prove that their natural vulnerability made them “less equipped” to handle hardcore sex and rape like white women could.
“I need a strong white woman!” would become a popular “empowering” slogan for exploitative men who rationalized the emotional, financial, and sexual overburdening of white women.
Overweight white nannies would become the “acceptable white women” in popular culture as they do not pose a threat to black female superiority and privilege. Conventionally attractive white women would serve as a sexual threat to black women for single-handedly breaking down the beauty hierarchy.
Hip hop videos would feature men throwing money at “white bitches” bent over in front of the camera to showcase their white asses, eager for deep penetration. Entire songs would be devoted to hatred of “white gold digging bitches” who believed that they were entitled to the financial security in marriage to which black women were entitled. “Penetrable white asses” and “pale-faced hoes” would become the cash commodity for selling entire musical genres.
White women’s “hard” bodies would be deemed more “capable” of fighting off sexual attackers, while the soft curves of black female bodies would become worthy of police protection. White women, despite being at high risk of being victimized by violence and sexual crimes, would not “need” police protection.
Movies would feature black women as the main objects of men’s desire across racial lines while stereotypes of evil, bitter, and oversexed white women would further prove why men of all races simply did not prefer blonds. “We can’t help those to whom we’re attracted,” men would say. “Preference” would become an unconcealed acceptance of discrimination against white women. White women’s anger towards and sadness about the status quo would show their unreasonable jealousy of the innate superiority of black women.
Republicans would ban abortions to protect the virtue of pure, black motherhood and liberals would advocate increasing the number of abortion clinics in “low income” neighborhoods where white women would be the majority. Liberals would claim that white women had “culturally” approved of sexual objectification and were “safe enough” without outside help since they were warned not to touch “in-group issues” with a ten foot pole.
And so on and so forth.
The most important reality is that black feminists would eventually grow tired of being seen as innocent and vulnerable in patriarchy and would fight to erase the commodity of black femininity. “The innocent, submissive, and vulnerable representation of women is what puts us in danger. The rigid category of femininity has contributed to our oppression,” they might argue.
In the back of every black feminist movement we would hear the quiet and dignified pleas of radical white feminists. “But, we do not represent femininity. We are considered strong, incapable of feeling pain, and sexually deviant—but all this has done is increase our likelihood of being in danger. And aren’t we women too?”
As Gloria Steinem wrote, “In short, the characteristics of the powerful, whatever they may be, are thought to be better than the characteristics of the powerless – and logic has nothing to do with it.”
What remains universally evident is that the many justifications for power and privilege are always inherent, always scientific, and always permeate society to the point that they remain deeply buried within our collective consciousness.
Until someone challenges them.
http://www.shadowandact.com/?p=14378
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Abagond,
In certain countries outside of the USA, Halle Berry and Soledad O’Brien would be considered good-looking for a white women!
Some parts of your alternate universe already exists in many black majority countries…
they already have the reverse “one-drop” rule that shifts Obama and many black Americans with white Ancestry into the brown or white category.
The Heroes in movies, books, and history are black with whites as “perpetual foreigners” or the villians
We had a discussion on another post about the different mindset black/brown people have who come from black majority countries and how they view the world differently because they are not bombarded by white racism on a frequent basis — so many of their actions are similar to white majority societies.
More black Americans should visit these countries so that they can experience (the good, bad, and the ugly) of when black/brown people are running the entire show.
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@King’s response to Churchs
Yep. It’s this knew jerk, snarky BS response by Church that further supports the actual braincells ppl use to keep black ppl (no matter where on Earth they reside) as a permanent underclass. It works on all levels of human thought at this point when SO MUCH of what we do can be viewed and scrutinized via global communications.
PPL with that same mentality:
~HAVE CHILDREN
~Deny qualified black and brown BUSINESS/HOME LOANS
~Are police officers
~Are politicians
~Refuse to promote qualified black/brown ppl
~Take the belief of our intellectual inferiority with them to the CLASSROOM in as they educate our children
~Medically (mis)treat us
And of course, still maintain the “golden” standard of what love, sexuality and beauty is because they control 99.99% of how the rest of the globe views them.
Trojan Pam still stated it best to me. We have sooo much work to do and they are no easy answers.
~SK
*************
@abagond, I know you saw that magazine cover circulating Tumblr with the white model in blackface with the Title “African Queen”. Can you PLEASE do a post on here about that??
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It’s true that many Blacks in certain Black-run countries do see Halle and Soledad as great looking for a white girl. A Black woman doesn’t have to be biracial though. If a Black woman is seen as very light, other Blacks in some Black-run countries more often than not will have a special type of treatment reserved for her, and there’s nothing she can do about it. She is sometimes described as “front-desk.” Browner women can be front-desk too, but lighter women are usually that.
I’ve challenged men about this and they deny they’re treating the lighter woman better. It’s not always romantic. Sometimes, it’s for a job or a social invitation. They’ll say they just prefer the lighter woman for any number of “acceptable” reasons, but I notice that they don’t treat other Black women that same way. Sometimes, there are subtle differences and other times, there are glaring differences in the treatment. Not saying it always happens, but it’s there.
This is why I say that Blacks have many in-house issues they need to address, themselves, without waiting for white-supremacy to collapse or be dismantled.
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This is hilarious. “Whites were brought from Europe as slaves and freed bt President Tubman”. I almost spit my pancakes over my laptop screen. This great. Hehee!!!
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Oops! Forgive my typos I’m still laughing. *by* This is great.
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Wow Abagond. You turned it around and created an alternate universe. I’m done now going to do my breakfast dishes now. You’ve made my day. My spirit has some laughter today.
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I think that Whites often misunderstand the advantages of their Whiteness on a broad racial basis. Most White people are not trust fund babies. Most White people aren’t Ivy League graduates.But they often misunderstand the effects of the advantages that they do have.
For example, I was out jogging one night, and I noticed a young guy (White) standing out by the near the sidewalk in front of his house. The house was not huge but it was in a pretty expensive neighborhood. I’d noticed that improvements were being made to the house for some time. On this evening there were pallets stacked with 2 foot squares of cut sod. I stopped and said hello and asked him when he was putting in the lawn. We talked about Tall Fescue grass, fertilizer, and sprinklers. In the course of talking I got a little background information.
The first thing that I thought, upon seeing this fellow, was how on earth he could afford this place at his age (mid to late 20s). It came out in conversation that his parents had fronted him the downpayment (about $75,000). His wife was taking off some time from work to take care of their toddler son, and he was fixing up the house. This guy’s parents were not extremely wealthy, they were just reasonably well off, and wanted their son to get a good start in life. But think about the advantages.
Chances are they had already helped him to pay for college and he now owned a nice house that he could not have afforded on his own. His wife was able to take several years off from work in order to invest in their son’s early development. And with the money that he didn’t have to save on the downpayment, he was able to make expensive home improvements. I’m not mad at the guy, I’m just saying that there are a lot of Whites like this in the U.S. who have no idea that they exist in a privileged situation.
Often Whites will attribute their success to “hard work” or perhaps “discipline and being smart.” Those who are not doing as well are just not working as hard as them or their ancestors. After all, even if one is privileged one still has to study, take tests, and then go to work every day after graduation. It’s easy to think of this as “hard work” and dismiss the fact that a lot of other people are working just as hard and have less to show for it.
The Civil Rights legislations just happened in the 1960s and much of it didn’t really get truly implemented until the 1970s. Most Black families are not passing down properties or dividing wealth from their parent’s Will. These kind of advantages are often missed.
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I addressed Church’s quip that in a racial reverse scenario, the entire country would look like Detroit. But I want to go just a little further, because this has become a popular talking point in White racist ideology—to point to Detroit as an example of a city being run by Blacks and their poor values and sense of entitlement—a cautionary tale of what happens when Whites are not in charge. But is that really what happened?
Detroit was once a bustling and successful mostly White city. The auto making capital of the U.S. The mainstay of the city was auto making, but quietly the population had been declining since 1951. Detroit had several problems, one was that for legal and political reasons, the city proper could not annex it’s suburbs as most cities do as they get bigger so their tax base did not grow with the expansion of the city. Another problem was than auto manufacturing plants began to spread out to other regions, taking their employees with them.
But the truly defining blow to Detroit was the 1973 gas crisis. Japan was building small, fuel-efficient cars, and Detroit was building much larger gas guzzling cars. People started buying the smaller cars… and guess what? Not only were those Japanese cars more fuel-efficient and less expensive, they were also much better quality that what GM was producing. So Detroit began loosing market share to the Japanese. But even once this trend was clearly established, American carmakers would not change their designs mostly because or arrogance and hubris. White Americans simply couldn’t learn anything from the silly Japanese!
So the auto manufacturers continued to lose market share for decades—making some gains in the 1990s with the truck and SUV craze, but still maintaining a net overall loss to Japanese manufacturers. Make no mistake about it, much of the problem was that the mostly White men who ran the car companies in the U.S. would not admit that they were being outmatched by people of color in Japan. The mostly White Auto Labor Union bosses also had the same attitude and would not adapt to the Japanese model of quality and worker accountability—again, they knew better.
By this time people those who had other options were leaving Detroit in droves (particularly the White working base). So what was left were the poor, the optionless and the disenfranchised. The demographics quickly changes until today, what is left of the gutted population in now 82% Black.
But don’t let anyone deceive you. This is really a story about how White arrogance lost out to Japanese ingenuity and hard work. Once the Whites were beaten, they abandoned the city in mass, leaving it a mess.
But now the story is being repackaged as if the real defining problems were about Black mismanagement and government corruption. Detroit was already reeling when Coleman Young took the helm in 1974 and the city’s fate was sealed, not by the city government but by the White leaders of Chrysler, Chevrolet, Ford, GM, Buick and Oldsmobile. That was the real power in Detroit and the real problem. And that is the real reason why Detroit is a wasteland today.
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Detroit had several problems, one was that for legal and political reasons, the city proper could not annex it’s suburbs as most cities do as they get bigger so their tax base did not grow with the expansion of the city.
TRANSLATION: The city couldn’t loot the white taxpayers living in the suburbs.
Another problem was than auto manufacturing plants began to spread out to other regions, taking their employees with them.
That’s right. Nothing was left but parasites.
By this time people those who had other options were leaving Detroit in droves (particularly the White working base). So what was left were the poor, the optionless and the disenfranchised.
And the parasites.
The demographics quickly changes until today, what is left of the gutted population in now 82% Black.
Yep. Parasites.
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@ KING, I only knew the true history: mis-management from the US auto-maker killed GM in Detroit. I can easily imagine an only-white top rank in GM (with the occasional excuse guy). But I never imagined that the black were blamed for the Detroit state, it is outrageous.
I never heard the argument, but if I hear it I promis to (verbally) kick the ass of the speaker.
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@Churches:
Feel good about yourself now?
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Actually it turned out that the Auto Unions and GM Management were the true parasites.
Mostly White Union Management: The unions knew that their members were making considerably more money than were the Japanese auto worker, even though the average Japanese worker had more education than the American auto worker. Yet, the unions refused to reduce salaries even when it became clear that the level of pay would eventually sink the company. They simply valued their mostly White American work force more than they were really worth. They continued to take much large salaries that the market would sustain for decades.
Mostly White Auto Company Management: The executives also refused to make significant cuts to middle management positions and refused to reduce management salaries, even though it was clear that their leaders had been making poor business decisions. In fact, bonuses continued to be awarded to people who were losing the market to the Japanese. As top executives left, they continued to cash in on “golden parachute” deals which awarded them multiple millions of dollars for their failures. These mostly White executives valued themselves much more than they were really worth.
So Finally, the entire parasitic system imploded and guess who ended up paying for it? 🙂 http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/08/15/auto-bailout-price-tag-rises-to-25-billion-how-high-will-it-go/
But just as all of this was happening, an even more White-dominated industry called Wall Street collapsed and had to be bailed out by the the u.S. taxpayer.
So, in the end, the total cost of the 2008 financial crash has cost the U.S. tax payer more money than ALL THE WELFARE PAYMENTS EVER MADE, not just to Black people but to ALL people since it was created in the 1930s.
http://www.moneynews.com/StreetTalk/crisis-Household-104-350/2010/06/02/id/360785
So now, I ask you…. Who are the real Parasites? 🙂
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@ An interesting and well researched factual account King!
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@King
Well said. I agree with your points.
@Churchs
You should be ashamed of yourself!
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@ jefe
I do believe they don’t. Most of them assume, as you seem to do, that said phenomenon is based on skin tone and phenotype.
The African words which are translated as “white” (Obruni, Muzungu, Toubab, etc…) do not refer to the color “white”, and would be better translated as “westerner”. That’s why not only Whites but also Japanese, Chinese, Lebanese … ( and Africans born and raised in the West ) are labeled such.
(In my mother language, the word for a white person is “yovó”; the word for the color white is “wé”.)
In Africa “whiteness” is not a matter of skin complexion or how (stereotypically) “black” one looks. It has more to do with social status and behavior.
An African-American living in Africa may be of a jet-black complexion, if he lives in a “white” district, shops only in supermarkets, has mostly “white” acquaintances, refuses to drink tap water or to speak the local language (all behaviors we associate with white folks), he will be called “white”.
This said, I have yet to hear/ read (in real-life, on the TV screen, in newspaper or on the web) an African refer to Halle Berry or Barrack Obama as white.
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@ Dahoman X
So what do they call Barack Obama and Halle Berry?
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Adeen
As if Churchs knows anything resembling shame. He’s proved he has no grasp of the concept several times over.
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@ abagond
Black, biracial, American, depending on who you ask.
And you would be surprised by the number of people on the continent who view Obama as an African.
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@ King
Excellent comments! That is just so like how it goes. Thanks.
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@Telhnoun
I guess I can’t convince a racist that he is wrong . I guess I am too young and naïve to realize that.
King, I like hearing from you. Your perspective really gave me a look into the world I am going into when I get older. Yes, I do believe that Whites have an advantage over minorities in this country on a social, economic and political scale etc.
Hopefully for me, I plan on being an author and become famous for it. I love to write.
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@ Adeen: Church is a troll. He’s just on the blog to yank people’s chains. Ignore him. Don’t give these types of individuals the power to distract or upst you. Like I said he’s just trolling the blog. And he wants to get a reaction.
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typo *upset*
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@Mary
Thanks but I am a very sensitive person and people like him just get on my nerves because whenever I go to school, I have to deal with people like Church.
I am originally from New York but live in a small, racist redneck town of NOcala and I hate it. I know Church’s type. Even some of the students my age are like Church. It makes me mad because they always talk about me in class and wonder where I was and crap like that.
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Excellent points, King!
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@ king
If you think I’m going to defend the auto union because a lot of union workers were white then you’re mistaken. I think unions are parasites, too. And you’ve just explained why. Though I’m skeptical of your anti union fervor.
Do you know why unions were started? More importantly, do you know why unions are big in the north but not the south? Unions were started to shut southerners out of the job market. When you talk about “Japanese” putting “American” automakers out of business understand what really happened. Japanese automakers built factories in the south and hired the people the American auto unions wouldn’t. The people the unions wouldn’t hire are the ones who put the unions out of business. That’s awesome.
The whole city of Detroit was full of parasites. The more competent parasites left for jobs in other cities and now have to earn their whole paycheck. The parasites on welfare are the ones who are left and they’re living in the sewer they deserve. I think that’s awesome, too.
By the way, the auto bailout that Obama pushed in his first term was primarily to pay for union pensions. That’s your “rented negro” right there.
Wall Street collapsed and had to be bailed out by the the u.S. taxpayer.
So, in the end, the total cost of the 2008 financial crash has cost the U.S. tax payer more money than ALL THE WELFARE PAYMENTS EVER MADE,
That’s two separate claims. First, the Wall Street bailout. I opposed the bailouts. However, the banks have already paid back MORE than they were given.
http://www.politifact.com/new-hampshire/statements/2012/oct/25/barack-obama/barack-obama-says-banks-paid-back-all-federal-bail/
Second, bubbles and crashes happen. In this case, the real estate bubble was mostly about sub-prime aka affirmative action mortgages. So I’m going to put the onus on the people who didn’t pay their mortgages and not the banks who didn’t get paid what they were owed. Regardless, I don’t believe the crash cost taxpayers more than all the welfare payments ever made. That sounds like BS.
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@King, absolutely awesome commentary. Sooo hard to refute well stated and well researched facts.
Willful ignorance is a disease that is sometimes violently allergic to the truth.
Great info!
SK
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I have visited this blog on and off for the past few years and there is always someone like @churchs around. I am curious, if you find blacks so dysfunctional why are you posting on this sight? What do you get out of it? The thrill that you have told the darkies the harsh truth of their inferiority? Do you feel you are helping to enlighten us poor Negroes who have no idea that whites should be emulated not blamed for problems they did not commit? or are an everyday troll who simply likes to insult people? I am not being facetious, I really want to know what goes through you head when you post on this site.
I would like to add:
Black immigrants would be welcomed in America and everyone would know the contributions they have made to this society. Americans also would also know about the history of blacks from the Caribbean (Marcus Garvey) Africa, (Chinua Achebe) and Spanish speaking countries (Gloria Anzaldúa).
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[…] What if everything about whites and blacks in America were the other way round? America is only 13% white. Whites were brought from Europe as slaves, later freed by President Tubman. Presidents are… […]
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[…] See on abagond.wordpress.com […]
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“Churchs,
Second, bubbles and crashes happen. In this case, the real estate bubble was mostly about sub-prime aka affirmative action mortgages.”
Linda says,
Churchs, churchs….any twirk or little “white lie” to drive home a race realist point, huh!
Sorry, but no, sub-prime loans were definitely NOT “affirmative action” mortgages…I can’t let you continue in your ignorance (at least on this subject)
Subprime lenders became more prominent in 2000-2001 in order to entice investors (like myself) so that we could get around having to provide documentation (that traditional, conventional loans required) in order to buy investment properties…since our intentions was to get fast money to buy and sell properties (flip) in less than 1 year…this was a great way to stay liquid and minimize risk…
the payoff for the subprime lender’s was that they could sell the loans immediately to financial investors (on a secondary market) — this is the part of the market that Wallstreet got caught up in
Those sub-prime loans had nothing to do with racial profiling until the subprime lenders and mortgage brokers realized that no one (like the Feds or Treasury Dept) were paying any attention to what was happening to real estate and they (Feds) kept cutting the prime index to almost nothing …
Banks /subprime lenders started offering creative financial instruments to the Average Joe (whose intentions where to live and keep their property)…even if the buyer had good credit, the mortgage brokers were pushing the subprime loans because they brought in More money than conventional loans…
Seasoned home buyers with good credit demanded conventional loans and got decent rates if they were selling their old home and moving to new homes, but on 2nd or 3rd properties, they were offered the opportunity to buy down points to reduce their interest rates — and plenty of white people got caught up in the mix…and when people with bad credit got into the game, it was raining money!
but isn’t it a shame that banks like Countrywide still offered black/Latino people with Good credit scores higher interest rates than white people with the same Exact scores and financial/ employment history…no surprise, this is America.
the subprime industry was not new and it was not created by the government–it has always been a niche market in the Financial sector (think of it as hard money lenders / loan sharks expanding their market beyond the typical investor)
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“[…]“flat buttocks” allow for deeper penetration.”
– – –
Yuck.
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then white people will be trying to hide their white ancestory and pass for black. They would have studies saying white women are the ugliest women and publish it in a magazine.The whites wouldn’t be allowed in certain neighborhoods after sundown.The police would pull them over for littlle or no reason.White men would be stopped and frisked.There would be people comparing them to dogs and having them in zoos.The kkk would be black and wouldn’t face prosecution while the white version of black panthers,we’ll call them polar bears were trying to fight to protect themselves but are seen as worse the enemy. White men would make up the majority of prison and white women are seen as hos.
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Yeah, and I would definitely be considered white in this alternate universe (“lighter than a brown paper bag”…”known white ancestors”).
Oh well, maybe next up there’s an alternate US history where visibly mixed -race people are on top and running the show!
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Fun post. Imagine all the ladies trying to make their hair defy gravity, surgeries to alter their noses to be more African and everyone wants an Afrocentric birth name for their children. *Do-do-do-do-do-you have now entered the twightlight zone-Do-do-do-do*
@King-go get’em! You speak nothing but the Truth!
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@CHURCH:
you say: “However, the banks have already paid back MORE than they were given. “
IMHO, the banks only have paid 1% of what they own the country!
They f*kced up the economy, put up to 12% un-employment, crashed by 50% the stock market, prevented millions of people to retire on time.
I’ll tell you Church, they should lose everything, go on the road with tar and feather. get stripped of all civic right, put of the lion’s den (and I try to stay polite here).
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@ Church’s
The point is that when you think you have a line on Black people wasting government money, then of course, it’s a question of race. But when you are forced to admit to White people wasting MUCH MORE government money, then it becomes a question of their political alignment. You don’t stop and say. “King, you’re right. We White people really are the biggest parasites, and we need to take responsibility for our reckless actions.”
Yet, that is exactly what you desire from Black people. When it’s Whites, it’s only a certain “sub-group” of people (whom you don’t agree with anyway) who are responsible. But when it’s Blacks, it’s like you expect us to collectively address these problems at the “Black People Meeting” which is held quarterly at the Apollo Theater and chaired by Morgan Freeman.
But notice also what you did in your response. In my narrative, I told the true story of waste on both sides of the political spectrum, but notice how you ignored the ideologically uncomfortable portions of the story and instead only focused in on your usual suspects.
But how about the Republican Conservative executives at GM who refused to cut back on a bloated middle management that was chock full with their sons-in-law, little brothers trying to “find themselves,” and daughter and nieces of their neighbors? How about the guys who kept their top-level jobs after making bad call after bad call and getting trounced by their Japanese competitors year after year? How about the fat cats who cashed in on sweetheart bonuses and golden parachutes when they knew that they didn’t deserve it, and that it would leave the company insolvent?
Yes, it’s easy to just agree with the “bad union” part of the equation because it suits your politics, but you are not ready be honest and to admit that there is another side of the problem that rests with dishonest and opportunistic Conservatives.
White people take exponentially more money out of Washington than do all other ethnic groups. How about Farm Subsidies? Do you know that the U.S. pays farmers to grow crops that are never even consumed? Are you aware that, unlike Welfare, that Federal Farm Subsidies are not even needs-based?
Did you know that Farm Subsidies go mostly to White people? Funny, I don’t ever hear people like you caterwauling about Farm Subsidies! How about Earmarks and budget pork? Who is benefitting the most from building the “Bridges to Nowhere” and all those special “research projects?” Did you imagine that it’s mostly Black people? And before you go all partisan on me, BOTH sides do it!
Black people may have problems, but we are not THE PROBLEM with America.
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@ Adeen
About a year ago I had six or so commenters like Churchs. I used to do posts on scientific racism. They came swarming like flies. Few last more than a few months: their underlying contempt leads them into breaking the commenting rules and they get banned. In most cases it is because they set up a sock puppet.
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Ah… the old Scientific Racism wars… I remember them well.
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You know, I often wonder about the theory of alternate dimensions and multiuniverses. I am not ashamed to say this, but I would LOVE to visit a world where in modern times blacks ran the world, a world where the dominant superpowers were located in Africa and other African colonized nations.
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King,
When it comes to people like Churchs, they tend to only focus on the symptoms rather than the causes, and tries to make white people into the victim of blame caused by blacks. To him it’s like blaming white people is a cardinal sin. Yet, blaming black people is a-okay.
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There is nothing wrong with America, in my opinion. The problem lies not with those of European descent, but with those of African Descent who are the minority. Trying to beg and scrape your way to equality in a society where you are a mere 12% is a waste of time. If you were in an African country and 12% of the population was foreign (White), would you want them to have so much power? Of course, not! So, why is it that many of us think it’s strange that we are treated like second class citizens in America? Whites are doing what they are supposed to be doing – protecting their power structure. If we had done the same centuries ago, perhaps we wouldn’t be in this situation to begin with.
Time to get out and start over. Marcus Garvey had the right idea.
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There was talk on a Black run web site a few years back of rallying well-to-do professional Black Americans into relocating and investing their wealth, knowledge and professional expertise in a chosen country in western Africa.
A lot of the site’s American posters thought it was a great idea, but ALL the African posters, as I recall, were quite dismayed by the thought. One had words to the effect that, while a large investment of Black American money in an African country would be a great idea, the thought that said group of investors might would end up taking the reins of power and authority in that African country was totally…unacceptable.
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“Caffeine & Nicotine@
One had words to the effect that, while a large investment of Black American money in an African country would be a great idea, the thought that said group of investors might would end up taking the reins of power and authority in that African country was totally…unacceptable.”
Linda says,
Because this idea was already done — Liberia and it never did go over well with the natives.
“In 1822, the American Colonization Society established Liberia as a place to send freed African-American slaves. African-Americans gradually migrated to the colony and became known as Americo-Liberians. Hence, the country was named Liberia, which stands for “liberty”. In 1847, the Americo-Liberian settlers declared the independence of the Republic of Liberia.
Although founded by freed American and Caribbean slaves, Liberia is mostly inhabited by indigenous Africans, with the slaves’ descendants comprising 5% of the population.
the area was already inhabited by various indigenous ethnic groups who had occupied the region for centuries. The introduction of a new ethnic group resulted in ethnic tensions with the sixteen existing ethnicities.
The Americo-Liberians regarded Africa as a “Promised Land”, but they did not integrate into an African society. Once in Africa, they referred to themselves as “Americans” and were recognized as such by local Africans. The symbols of their state – its flag, slogan, and seal – and the structure of government they chose mirrored their American background and Diaspora experience.
The West African nation was relatively calm until 1980 when William Tolbert was overthrown by Sergeant Samuel Doe after food price riots. The coup marked the end of dominance by the minority Americo-Liberians, who had ruled since independence, but heralded a period of instability. ”
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/gmdhtml/libhtml/liberia.html
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Abagond, your post reminds me of the novel Lion’s Blood by Steven Barnes. It’s offers an alternate American history in which Africans are rich landowners who enslave the Irish after raiding Irish villages.
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Halle Berry is deemed good looking for a bi-racial woman. Few white men perceive such women as being the equal or the superior of darker-skinned Black women!
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Actually, white europeans did slave each other and yes, they also brought them to the Caribian isles but white slaves died off in that climate, hence the black slave business was invented to keep that system going on. In France white slavery was still going strong at least in 1600’s and in Russia it lasted untill the social upheavals of late 1800’s and early 1900’s. Even the great russian novelist Tolstoi “owned” few thousand “souls”.
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Linda,
Yes, that is pertinent information; and though I do already know something of the history of Liberia and the freed American slaves who were sent there, others might not. Also, thank you for going to the trouble of providing links.
I suppose the owners of the web site I mentioned, however, might have thought that by educated professionals voluntarily relocating to Africa, things might would end differently then they did when un – / undereducated ex-slaves were sent ‘back to Africa’ by whites who showed concern for neither the ex-slaves themselves, nor the native Africans the ex-slaves would rule over.
I myself tend to believe that a large enough group of wealthy & knowledgeable investors would eventually end up running things — and that’s regardless of any beneficient intentions they individually might have believed they had, when they started out on such a venture.
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@Linda–
The Americo-Liberians regarded Africa as a “Promised Land”, but they did not integrate into an African society. Once in Africa, they referred to themselves as “Americans” .
Based on my experiences, I don’t believe it would have mattered what name Black “Americans” called themselves, the Africans most probably would not have viewed the outsiders as Africans. Being an African is a lot deeper than just a name. I wish that some of the readers from indigenous African countries would speak about this here because this is a new fantasy that some Black Americans are creating.
This is mostly a human “us vs them” problem, not a Black-White problem. Black ethnicities who come from Black-run societies experience many of these similar injustices from each other when there’s a significant power imbalance. Just ask some of the Africans who are from smaller ethnic groups who live among larger ethnic groups.
@Caffeine and Nicotine–
One had words to the effect that, while a large investment of Black American money in an African country would be a great idea, the thought that said group of investors might would end up taking the reins of power and authority in that African country was totally…unacceptable.
Those Africans were kind. They know what would happen to those Black Americans. This is a generalization and I will stand by it. African countries are never going to allow Black Americans to come in and take over their country, no matter how much money and knowledge the Black Americans bring. That is, unless the Black Americans are backed by a huge military arsenal and are ready to use it.
Their money would not be safe in certain African countries for sure. I think that some small groups of Black Americans could emigrate and integrate successfully depending on various factors. For best results, they should plan to intermarry with Africans for a couple of generations and keep a low profile before they try to assert themselves, if ever. So, if Black Americans plan to do this, they should do lots of research. There is plenty of information about this available.
My parents love Africa, in general, but they’re not fools. Most Africans do not view Black Americans as Africans. Some of them wonder aloud why Black Americans even call themselves “African”-Americans.
My suggestion for the masses of Blacks in America is to learn their history, but don’t wear it like a sword. Then, become as fully assimilated into American society as possible. None of you will be able to convince Whites (or those who have much more power) to be nice and share, and even if you do, they can change their minds at any time.
@Menelik Charles–
Halle Berry is deemed good looking for a bi-racial woman. Few white men . . . .
I agree with you. This is one reason I dated mostly White men. I know they’re not as likely to be interested in me for my skin shade. On average to a White man, I may be simply attractive but on average to a Black man, I’m light-skinned.
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@ Linda
Sorry, but no, sub-prime loans were definitely NOT “affirmative action” mortgages…I can’t let you continue in your ignorance (at least on this subject)
Yes. They were. If you’re not too shiftless to read the whole article this lists the laws which forced banks to make affirmative action mortgages.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/billflax/2012/07/26/affirmative-action-in-bank-lending-policy-promises-economic-disaster/
and plenty of white people got caught up in the mix…
I’m sure some did. And they got what they deserved, too. Foreclosed and evicted.
but isn’t it a shame that banks like Countrywide still offered black/Latino people with Good credit scores higher interest rates than white people with the same Exact scores and financial/ employment history…
Not really. There are men with perfect driving records who still pay more for auto insurance. That’s because rates are based on statistics. Statistically, even blacks with the same credit score are more likely to default on their loans. Higher risk means higher costs. You’re saying banks should make more and cheaper loans to blacks regardless of the risk. And that’s what affirmative action mortgages are all about.
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@ king
The point is that when you think you have a line on Black people wasting government money, then of course, it’s a question of race. But when you are forced to admit to White people wasting MUCH MORE government money, then it becomes a question of their political alignment.
I’m not “forced to admit” anything. I’ve no problem denouncing government waste by whites. But here is a fine distinction. When whites waste government money most whites denounce it. Not so for blacks. When blacks waste government money the only blacks who denounce it are Thomas Sowell and Walter Williams. And they’re called “Uncle Tom” for they’re trouble. So, yeah, its racial because blacks have made it so.
In my narrative, I told the true story of waste on both sides of the political spectrum, but notice how you ignored the ideologically uncomfortable portions of the story and instead only focused in on your usual suspects. But how about the Republican Conservative executives at GM who refused to cut back on a bloated middle management that was chock full with their sons-in-law, little brothers trying to “find themselves,”
What about it? That has nothing to do with government waste. The bailout did and I opposed it. But management is an issue for GM’s shareholders. And I’m not a GM shareholder.
Yes, it’s easy to just agree with the “bad union” part of the equation because it suits your politics, but you are not ready be honest and to admit that there is another side of the problem that rests with dishonest and opportunistic Conservatives.
Yes, it’s easy to agree with the “bad union” part because unions are parasites. But I’m not making excuses for management. If they’re enriching themselves at the expense of shareholders then they’e parasites, too. But that’s not government waste. The difference is, I have to pay taxes but I don’t have to buy GM cars or stock.
White people take exponentially more money out of Washington than do all other ethnic groups. How about Farm Subsidies?
Exponentially? I doubt it. Not in terms of “entitlements”. And certainly not in terms of per capita welfare. Where whites take more is social security and medicare. Regardless, I’m against ALL entitlements including farm subsidies. I’m even against publicly funded education. Yeah, I’m one of those. So don’t try to claim I’m morally inconsistent on this issue because I’m not.
Did you know that Farm Subsidies go mostly to White people? Funny, I don’t ever hear people like you caterwauling about Farm Subsidies! How about Earmarks and budget pork? Who is benefitting the most from building the “Bridges to Nowhere” and all those special “research projects?” Did you imagine that it’s mostly Black people? And before you go all partisan on me, BOTH sides do it!
Don’t play the “most xxx goes to white people” card with me. Because you’re smart enough to know the difference between relative rates vs absolute numbers even if the others aren’t. Regardless, there are PLENTY of white people “caterwauling” about all those things.
Finally, you’ve accused whits of making issues political when its whites and racial when its blacks. And yet you were the one who said my views regarding government waste were influenced by “political alignment”. YOU were the one who made it political when its whites and racial when its blacks. Not me. You. I never mentioned it.
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Well, couple interesting things here.
It’s hard not to talk about churchs in a non-ad hominem manner because well its obviously some psychology up in there, a hot mess of semi-completed thoughts, not your average fbi stat-touting troll, but clearly [s]he is disenfranchised, to some degree.
That person’s perspective vis a vis detroit seems to be that the corporation as ‘guiding star’ has failed for a plethora of reasons; the star on the top of the christmas tree ie the ‘meme’ of corporate prosperity or iconic american company has gone out, failed, in this case gm, and chrysler, and every other one, It’s not the average worker’s fault that his company was woefully derelict in projecting a safe profit margin to support pensions. This is a huge problem with the federal government right now and this is pervasive right down to your local mayor, police officer, fireman, there is no way that all these exorbitant pensions, which were guaranteed by contract, btw, are going to be honored, just like with social security. Is it a racial issue? Probably. But that’s really not the root cause or the crux.
And well there was a ‘free-state initiative’ that was going round the net some time ago, i think they picked new hampshire at some point around the early 2000’s to try to have every libertarian person they could recruit move there but my interest level in that movement is low and it seems to be defunct off the top.
I actually applied for a couple jobs in S Africa, on a lark, kinda? But it felt like running, I have kids here. Apropos to this thread, it would be funny to see the news cast: “Yes the bloggers have landed, having completed their purchase of a nice tract of jungle in the eastern DRC…”
As Americans, we have to get up, get out there and see our way through this mess. That is my statement.
And you know, I come here because this site really makes me think, I had some travel time on the way to work yesterday on my OWN business because no corporation is gonna hire ME and looking around on wiki about the list of American massacres, it was a lot of racially-related ones, but most seemed to be labor disputes and anti-union action.
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@ Churchs
Nice touch. You are lurching into self-parody. Actually, you already did with the Detroit parasite stuff.
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@ Sugarkiss
Look for it Monday/Tuesday.
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I noticed in Church’s response to Sugarkiss. He used the word shiftless. That’s just so sad and pathetic to me. All I can do is just shake my head.
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But when it’s Blacks, it’s like you expect us to collectively address these problems at the “Black People Meeting” which is held quarterly at the Apollo Theater and chaired by Morgan Freeman
BHAhahahahah. whooo thanks for that laugh King.Then after the meeting its showtime at the apollo.Churchs must attend the White people meeting hosted by John wayne.
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Hahaha! Do you REALLY believe that? Let me explain to you how the world actually works. Whites only denounce waste that they feel they are not benefitting from directly. But if you ask them about waste from programs that are benefitting them, then those who raise the issue are branded, “Uncle Unpatriotic.”
Go onto a military base and ask some of the White military families if quite a lot of waste couldn’t be cut from the 2014 U.S. Military Budget? Mention things like $100 hammers, defense contractor overpayments, and duplication of inventory. You will be run off that base so fast it will make your head spin!
Go to a Farm Convention and start asking the Whites there if the time may have come to put and end to some of these farm subsidies—or at least to impose a needs-based structure to the program, in order to save the American Tax Payer money. You will quickly see that the only thing being “denounced” will be you, and the person who let you in.
Whites are no better than Black people when it comes to this. You just have to ask them the right questions about the right programs. Once they realize they are no longer talking about “lazy minority” programs, you will find that they are quite defensive about their own “entitlements.”
Or in other words, you don’t know how the system works. You see, the taxpayer is always the backstop for big business in the U.S. It might be nice to think that it’s only a case of the shareholders being screwed, but that’s just what they teach you in your business classes. The truth is that American-based global corporations ARE the government, to a great extent. They have the power to fund candidates, to strongly influence legislation, to lobby relentlessly, to punish enemies, and reward friends. There is not enough space here to really make this point sufficiently, and you probably wouldn’t accept it in any case. But rest assured, far more government money is spent every year propping up bad business decisions by wealthy and well-connected White people than is ever spent feeding and housing poor minorities.
http://thinkbynumbers.org/government-spending/corporate-welfare/corporate-welfare-statistics-vs-social-welfare-statistics/#sthash.jjqiZBPf.dpuf
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Ammend: I probably should have said that American-based global corporations are an undeclared BRANCH of the U.S. Government, in modern times.
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Agagond, I think you posted in the wrong thread. Didn’t you mean to put this in the Quvenzhané Wallis thread?
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Right. Thanks.
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@Abagond
Thanks!! I will definitely look forward to that!
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“Churchs,
Not really. There are men with perfect driving records who still pay more for auto insurance. That’s because rates are based on statistics. Statistically, even blacks with the same credit score are more likely to default on their loans. Higher risk means higher costs. You’re saying banks should make more and cheaper loans to blacks regardless of the risk. And that’s what affirmative action mortgages are all about”
Linda says,
Like I said, your ignorance has no bounds because you will say Anything to try and prove you’re race realist non-point.
This statement you made right here just proves what a POS race realist you are. Please drag in the article that shows this statistic about blacks with “high credit scores being high risk” (and I want one that is unrelated to the 2004 housing bubble) and then in turn, I will drag in the information (that you would purposely leave out) whcih shows whites do the same thing when all the factors are equal to blacks.
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Yes, that Churches is comical!
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It’s a nice idea, but as alternate history it needs some work.
At the time of first contact the supermediterraneans had two big advantages, the gun (though the technology and tradecontacts of the subsaharans, would have allowed them to even the field quickly, if things had gone slightly different), and a superior ship building tradition, now look at Western Europe, the whole thing is nothing but islands and peninsulas! Shipbuilding, marine warfare and merchant marines had to flourish there. That Europe would rule the Atlantic Ocean for some time was more or less caused by geography.
The nicest “when it changed story” I could think up for a superhero universe, is one in which the likes of Toph BeiFong, Terra, Terrax, Geo-Force, Magma, Molecule-Man travel back in time a couple of millenia, fight a HUGE fight against a Galactus-level danger on the African coast, damaging it a bit and raising lots of islands around Africa/West of Africa, and are forced back to the present/another era, upon return the changed geography has promoted African shipbuilding, and in the present The Mother Continent Rules The Waves.
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“Churchs
@ Linda
Sorry, but no, sub-prime loans were definitely NOT “affirmative action” mortgages…I can’t let you continue in your ignorance (at least on this subject)
Yes. They were. If you’re not too shiftless to read the whole article this lists the laws which forced banks to make affirmative action mortgages.”
Linda says,
King of “cut and paste” because you have no clue trying to call someone lazy…LOL…you got jokes.
As far as your article– you have GOT to be kidding me…I know that you don’t know much about this topic (and Wikipedia is your best friend) but really?? Why don’t you just say it’s your opinion and stop presenting Bulls’it as fact!
You bring in some opinion piece where the writer used “Affirmative Action” in his title and in one sentence, and so therefore, you want to actually act as if you have a Clue about the subprime industry and the causes of the real estate bubble—GTFOH with that BS
Your writer doesn’t even bring in ANY facts to back up his theory (just like you), he states his opinion, mixed in with a vague hint of an actual event (same thing you like to do):
“Recall before the Great Recession, banks supposedly did not sufficiently extend credit for minorities and less affluent customers. After considerable prodding, lenders lessened standards to accommodate federal guidelines. Politically correct underwriting practices begot financial turmoil
While debased dollars and manipulated interest rates spurring mal-investment were the primary catalysts, politically charged housing quotas doused the flames of financial distress with an accelerant.”
Notice how your writer stated “debased dollar, manipulated interests rates, and mal-investments” were the MAIN cause of the bubble and crash…he doesn’t even Name the federal guideline—he “alludes” to it…since neither he or you, know what the h’ll your talking about, let me clear up your ignorance.
What your writer was attempting to drag in, (every race realists new talking point) is: Clinton/Bush and “The 1977 Community Reinvestment Act” — as if it mattered…
HUD and Fannie Mae’s job since it’s creation was to assist first-time homebuyers (who had to have good credit scores by the way) with low down payments and to buy these secured-mortgages from the originators (banks)…
Once underwriting standards were lowered in the 1990’s, banks took advantage by offering “refinancing” packages to homeowners and they gave Traditional prime loans (not subprime) to 1st time home buyers –who were mostly White.
…how convenient for them (banks) that they could turn CRA products and subprime products into a goldmine when interest rates dropped in 2004. and Thanks to Fannie Mae, CRA mortgages were Guarenteed money for the banks — it was never about fulfulling Any quotas — if it was, at the speed at which they were selling mortgages, they met it in less than 1 week! –keep believing it wasn’t about Money.
Sorry, your writer could not prove that these CRA mortgages caused the crash or were designed to help more black/ minority people than white — and you can’t prove it either…
even though I am sure you will scour the Internet and drag in every article you can that says “yes, it was the governments fault!” to prove yourself right ….. keep this in mind, many of the defaults were on suburban homes and condos, investment properties (by the inexperienced late comers), builders new homes, etc that were NOT eligible for CRA
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@ linda
This statement you made right here just proves what a POS race realist you are. Please drag in the article that shows this statistic about blacks with “high credit scores being high risk”
From page S-4 of The Federal Reserve’s Report to the Congress on
Credit Scoring and Its Effects on the Availability and Affordability of Credit
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@caffine&nicotine
“Oh well, maybe next up there’s an alternate US history where visibly mixed -race people are on top and running the show!”
Your wish may come true in the near future. See link below. 🙂
http://dailymultiracial.com/
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@ king
I’ll give you credit. I agree with a lot of your points. I’m aware people are more likely to support the programs that benefit them and denounce the ones that don’t. Whites are no exception to this. Certainly not when it comes to farmers and their subsidies. Though I think eligible whites are probably less likely to sign up for programs they consider “handouts”. And corporations do tend to influence the government.
Yet you lecture me on these things as if you think you’re telling me something I didn’t already know. That’s not the case. In fact, the arguments you’re making are the reason EVERYONE should be for less entitlements and smaller government. Because they’re abused by individuals corporations alike. So if you’re making these arguments and you support larger government, more entitlements or even maintaining existing entitlements such as medicare, social security or Obamacare then you’re not being consistent. And I’d like to know your position on those programs are because you dodged it the last time I brought it up.
Regardless, you and I both know that you’re using this whole discussion as a Tu quoque strawman to hide from my original point — if the demographics were reversed the whole country would look like Detroit. You can go to dozens of different countries to see the kinds of societies that blacks and whites build. And you’ll pretty much see my point demonstrated in all of them.
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But don’t you see? It’s all semantics! It’s only a case of mindset. When Whites are taking unnecessary government construction projects to fuel their company coffers for the next three years, they don’t CONSIDER it to be a massive and wasteful handout, but that is what it is. In fact, it’s a much bigger and even more wasteful “handout” than 100 lazy minority families taking free housing and food money with no plan of finding work.
The reason it doesn’t feel like a “handout” is because the guys who get it are driving around Mercedes Benz and playing golf on weekends. Yes, actual work is being done by the worker class, but it’s VERY expensive very unnecessary work. Those kind of projects going on all over the county are what’s REALLY sucking up the much of the tax money. Add to that military waste, add to that Farm subsidies, add to that corporate subsidies. They are ALL handouts, whether you call them that or not.
But the problem is that nobody wants to implicate powerful and successful people, so who are we left with? How many people were focused on all of the money that bankers were getting by selling bad paper, cheating investors, even breaking the law? It was under the radar. But the Black family who is using food stamps to pay for their groceries, or Section 8 housing is constantly raised. “These people are parasites! These people are a drag on society!”
Some of them are—you’ll always have some bad apples. But let me tell you that since the Welfare Reform Act of 1996, there have been a lot of changes in how Welfare is managed, but you people keep talking about Welfare as if we were back in the 1970s. Have you read the Act? Do you even know how Welfare works today, or are you just going by what you read on the blogs?
These are the basic requirements of the 1996 Act in a nutshell:
-Ending welfare as an entitlement program;
-Requiring recipients to begin working after two years of receiving benefits;
-Placing a lifetime limit of five years on benefits paid by federal funds;
-Encourage two-parent families and discouraging out-of-wedlock births;
-Enhancing enforcement of child support; and
-Requires state professional and occupational licenses be withheld from illegal immigrants.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Responsibility_and_Work_Opportunity_Act
So Welfare has actually been reformed more than Wall Street has, yet Blacks still get scapegoated as if they are the primary parasites in society. Do you realize that if all of the larger waste was mitigated that you would barely even notice the money that came out of your check for Food and Housing Aid? It’s not the huge drain that racists make it out to be. The real entitlement money is being spent on:
Medicare: Used by members of all races
Social Security Used by members of all races
Unemployment Used by members of all races
Worker’s Disability Used by members of all races
THAT is what is bankrupting the county, not Food Stamps.
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I have asked @churchs on several posts what he gets out of posting on this site. He has never answered me. Could it be because he doesn’t have an out of context quote to address this compulsion and is unable to articulate a reason that doesn’t come from a Stormfront/Vanguard point of few? So again I will ask you why are you here? Should be obvious that you will not find anyone to support your white is always right ideology. So what intellectual, psychological rewards are you getting from being here?
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Reblogged this on The Inquisitive girl and commented:
Interesting reversal
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@ king
Are you really against social security, medicare, unemployment, disability, and government contracts? Or are you just making excuses for people on welfare?
I’ve asked this several times and you’re still dodging it.
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@ Church’s
That’s actually the first time that you asked that question.
No, I’m not against those programs, but they are unsustainable in their current form. Both parties agree to this. Both parties refuse to fix the inherent problems in hopes that they will be able to blame the cutbacks other party.
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@ mstoogood4yall
…at the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library! 🙂
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@ king
If you think the programs are unsustainable then what do you want to do about it?
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Logically the first step would be to reduce the waste in the programs. It would be nice to have a bipartisan agreement to just eliminate all the waste that everyone knows is in each of these programs.
The next step is to get serious about sharply reducing the rampant fraud that occurs, particularly in Medicare and Disability.
We’re al living longer and working longer. Bump up the retirement age for SS to 67 instead of 65.
Those are my recommendation in broad strokes.
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@ king
I don’t think you can eliminate waste from government programs. The political pressure is for programs to become larger and more wasteful. And then pay for it with deficits. I would like to see everything privatized. Police, fire, education, social security, medicare, everything. People below a certain income would be given a stipend to cover the things they can’t afford. But they would buy them from the private sector. Everyone else would be required to save at least X % of their income in private social security and health savings accounts. But the age of eligibility would be raised 3 months for every year away from retirement. So the people close to retirement wouldn’t see a difference. The people a few years away wouldn’t have time to save that much. But that’s fine because they’re age of eligibility would only be raised by a couple of years.
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eh i was born in 69 and i believe my ss retirement age is 67.5. I aint gonna make it that far.
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@ Thomas
The bump would not be retroactive to those already in the system. You’re safe!
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@King
I am with you on this one! You are right, don’t let Church get to you because as a young, Black woman, I feel I could learn so much from an intelligent Black man like you who has more experience in this racially divided world.
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“Churchs,
I would like to see everything privatized. Police, fire, education, social security, medicare, everything. People below a certain income would be given a stipend to cover the things they can’t afford. But they would buy them from the private sector.”
Linda says,
First, I want to put it out there that I am an Independent because I think both parties stink.
Serious question for you: if everything is privatized and government decides to take a back seat and further allow industries to regulate themselves, who will safe guard the public from things such as price-fixing, increased premiums and prices, unsafe equipment and under-supplied departments due to budget constraints, diminished customer service, salaries being further decreased—these things are happening now in the private sector with government regulation.
In order for any of these “companies” to work profitably (because once they become privatized, it’s all about money) they have to be subsidized initially by either State or Federal funds. They will all have a Board of Directors to answer to.
Why do you believe for-profit private companies can do a better job?
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@ Adeen
Debate is good. Even conflict is good, because the fastest way to learn is through crisis. Keep seeking knowledge, and remember there are so many wise people here (both men and women) to hear it from (if you hadn’t noticed) 🙂
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@ Church’s
Well you take that as a axiom, but of course, you realize that its not absolute. Yes, the tendency is for human beings to want more or at least maintain what they have, but this tendency can and has been overcome on occasion.
The Welfare Reform Act of 1996 that I mentioned above is an example of a government entitlement program that was drastically curtailed and reeled in. It was passed bilaterally in congress. I could give you other examples but it just ends up making posts too long.
I would like to see everything privatized.
Well, consider the logic of what you are saying. You’re saying how difficult it is to get a society to cut back on waste and overspending. But you’re proposing to do away with these same programs altogether! And that would be somehow less difficult? That’s like saying that you couldn’t convince the boys to shorten their hair, so you just got them to shave their heads instead!
We have to operate within the limits of reality. If people are going to resist cutbacks, they certainly are not going to accept a wholesale dismembering of the entire social safety net. You’re trying to solve something difficult with something impossible,
But as regards privatization. Some things the private sector can do better, some things the public sector can do better. If someone can demonstrate that privatization would be more efficient in certain areas, and would continue to be so, even on a massive scale, then sure, fine. I’m not closed-minded about exploring new possibilities, but let’s be practical. Nothing even close to the drastic transition you’re suggesting can happen quickly. So, the first thing we need to do is adapt the programs that we already have within more realistic parameters. Once that is done, it will be possible to run test programs in regard to privatization vs. public sector efficiency.
Bring your ideas to table and we’ll see what works, but first you must help us to salvage the existing structure. This need is existential, and it has to be the first step on the road to later improvements.
And with that, I’m pleased to announce to you my candidacy for the United States Senate! I hope I can count on the Abagond vote in the months to come. My slogan will be…
“America Needs a King…” lol!
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Churchs,
I said show me statistics about blacks with “high credit” scores being “high risk”…
you brought in a study that is talking about black Americans with low credit scores. I originally stated that black people with high credit scores still received high interest loans.
So you are basically trying to say that banks and other creditors discriminated against black people with Good credit based on the past performance of black people with bad credit.
Credit risk factors differ because underwriting is subjective and judgmental.
Your article addressed this point:
As far as mortgages go, keep in mind, mortgage brokers received monetary rewards for steering customers towards more expensive loans… they had an incentive.
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King, you already know you’re the Man 🙂
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Ha! I was just being silly!
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“Caffeine & Nicotine,
Also, thank you for going to the trouble of providing links.
I myself tend to believe that a large enough group of wealthy & knowledgeable investors would eventually end up running things — and that’s regardless of any beneficient intentions they individually might have believed they had, when they started out on such a venture.”
Linda says,
You’re welcome. Even though I admire Marcus Garvey, Liberia was already an example as to why the concept of “going back to Africa” would not work…it’s too late to turn back the clock.
As Jorbia mentioned, I think blacks in the diaspora have a sort of fantasy with Africa. black Americans still need to learn about Africa and the continents history (the same way we have to learn European history) just so that they can even understand and respect Africa and who the people really are — the way it is now is too vague with the whole Dashiki wearing, Swahili-learning crowd
I believe it’s important for us to know “where” and “what Ethnic group” our African ancestors came from because this information would give black Americans a sense of belonging and ancestral pride –
That’s why I believe Jamaicans are so arrogant – because of the Maroons, we have a link and knowledge about our African ancestors and their culture, like the Akan (Ghana region) – who were known to be great military fighters and escaped into the mountains to join the Maroons as soon as their feet hit Jamaican soil.
the Maroons fought the British for 200 years and won – Jamaicans take pride in this fact and it gives them confidence that, as black/brown people, we can accomplish anything. (and I can only really speak for my family and acquaintances because this is what I’ve heard all my life, “Queen Nanny mash up the white man”)
I think black Americans are denied this feeling of pride and esteem in conquering the “white man” (that’s why more people were attracted to Malcolm X / Nation of Islam because of their more militant views)
and this group of investors are only trying to find an escape—no matter how they slice it they are Americans and they can’t escape that… black Americans need to “conquer the white man” in a different way…you should be hitting them were it hurts the most – their pockets. Play their game and get into their businesses /industries … Take market share and give them competition. This is how the Asians (and Jay Z) are playing the game and it’s working.
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@ king
Well you take that as a axiom, but of course, you realize that its not absolute.
It looks like an axiom to me.
http://www.heritage.org/federalbudget/growth-federal-spending
The Welfare Reform Act of 1996 that I mentioned above is an example of a government entitlement program that was drastically curtailed and reeled in.
It doesn’t look drastically curtailed to me..
http://www.heritage.org/federalbudget/welfare-spending
I could give you other examples but it just ends up making posts too long.
Other examples? You haven’t given me one yet.
Well, consider the logic of what you are saying. You’re saying how difficult it is to get a society to cut back on waste and overspending. But you’re proposing to do away with these same programs altogether! And that would be somehow less difficult?
Considering there haven’t been any cutbacks on waste I’d say so.
We have to operate within the limits of reality. If people are going to resist cutbacks, they certainly are not going to accept a wholesale dismembering of the entire social safety net. You’re trying to solve something difficult with something impossible,
I disagree. It would be easier to replace public programs with a private option than reign in public waste. It all depends on how its engineered.
Bring your ideas to table and we’ll see what works, but first you must help us to salvage the existing structure.
I don’t want to salvage anything. Let it burn.
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@ Linda
you brought in a study that is talking about black Americans with low credit scores. I originally stated that black people with high credit scores still received high interest loans.
Its not limited to low scores.
So you are basically trying to say that banks and other creditors discriminated against black people with Good credit based on the past performance of black people with bad credit.
No. I said blacks have higher loan default rates than others with similar scores. And the Federal Reserve agrees.
Deny it if you want. Make excuses. It doesn’t change reality.
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“Churchs,
Its not limited to low scores.”
Linda says,
I read the report, it does not address black people with high credit scores…
and if I mentioned that black people with good credit received high interest rates — what sense does it make for you to talk about black people defaulting on loans –apples and oranges…why even address my sentence if you can’t respond to said sentence.
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“Churchs,
Deny it if you want. Make excuses. It doesn’t change reality.”
Linda says,
The only person doing any denying and can’t accept realtiy is you…as usual, you are trying to defend the financial industry who created a mess they couldn’t clean up and as usual, try to pin it on black people…
I can’t see how I am denying anything since I asked you to substantiate your comments about why black people with good credit got rotten loans and as usual, you hop, skip, and jump around the question and bring in a 2007 report about credit score demographics– that didn’t address my original statement.
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Sigh… really?
Read this page Church’s:
http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2006/08/welfare-reform-turns-ten-evidence-shows-reduced-dependence-poverty
You’ll notice it’s from the very same website.
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I am mixed like halle berry and have a similar complexion to alicia keys and have too been told I am pretty for a black girl before, so this topic is interesting to look at it in reverse.
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@ king
Sigh… really?
Yes. Really.
Your link shows that welfare reform succeeded in 1) reducing welfare dependence and increasing employment; 2) reducing child poverty; and 3) reducing out-of-wedlock childbearing and strengthening marriage.
Those are good things. No doubt about it. But we were talking about government waste. And my link shows that welfare spending has increased from less than $600 billion in 1996 to more than $900 billion in 2011. That’s an increase in over 50% in welfare spending.
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Well, just look at the money spent on wars and then look at the money spent on welfare or well being of americans. Now, which one you prefer? Destroying and killing somewhere around the globe or taking care of americans? I think before anything, you should make that choice.
There is always few dozens of billions available on any war at any time, but when a hurricane or what ever creates havoc in your own country, it is all of a sudden too expensive and yadadadada.
I can not understand this. It should be very simple. Thousands of billions spent on war, or hundreds on welfare. Which one benefits the people of USA more?
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This thread would not go down too well with most of the “Traditional”(!) Catholics posting here:
http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=23228&min=5&num=5
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@ Sugarkiss
The post on “African Queen”:
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@ sam
I can not understand this. It should be very simple. Thousands of billions spent on war, or hundreds on welfare. Which one benefits the people of USA more?
First, your asking us to choose the lesser of two evils. And, second, that’s a false dilemma. We don’t have to spend the money on either.
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@Abagond
It’s funny that you mention Halle Berry? Would she be viewed as a good-looking whitewoman? She’s a white female right now, screw the hypothetical nonsense. Halle is half-white, her daughter is white, and her “Boo” is a white Frenchman. Can’t get any whiter than that sistas and brothas. All of a sudden, whitemen wanna wifey mulatto women, What’s the deal? From the perspective of a natural blackman, it’s comical to see all of this taking place. They rejected their so-called colored children during slavery. Now, they want to claim them as worthy of their attention, Interesting???
GoTeam
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@ mochasister
I have heard of Barnes but not that book. Thanks!
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@ teddy1975
I wrote this as a flip without supposing too much of a backstory. But I did assume:
1. West Africans develop guns and ocean-going ships and discover America before western Europe.
2. Africans wipe out the Indians.
3. They make slaves of whites, practising race-based slavery.
4. Have a reverse One Drop Rule.
Even if West Africa did get a technological jump, I doubt it would have been that symmetric. In particular, I think #2 (genocide) and especially #4 (hypodescent) would be unlikely.
Interesting point about geography!
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@Churches
What would you do to curb the corporate problem?
I don’t mean just the social programs as instated by the government for them, I mean basically annhilating the economy of the country and not giving a flip or even profitting off of it?
I mean if you look at the wealthy aren’t they doing better now than they have in years? While the country goes down hill aren’t they only going up
And then thay can’t even b bothered to pay their taxes.
And countries with social programs ala welfare etc…..often have less problems with crime etc….won’t cutting them simply lead to a destabilization of our nation and increase crime, simply leading to another form of wasted income, perhaps an even greater one?
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Hmmm!! thats somthing to think about there. tho i really don’t care for people like them(whites).
where is the dark skin Beauty’s @abagond
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@ Crissjensen
Huh? What do you mean?
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Great topic. I’ve actually thought about this many times from just this same angle.
I’ve long had a fantasy that someone like Spike Lee would write a film based on a scenario such as this where white women darkened their skin and wore cornrows in order to look acceptable. Whites would all have West African first and last names and practice traditional African religion. It would show images of blacks slavers in Barcelona and London marching whites to the port to be shipped to the Americas. It would show Africans beating Europeans, throwing them off ships, raping their wives and daughters and then 200 years of oppression and segregation. Then these same blacks would accuse these oppressed whites of being racist for voting 95% for the first white president.
I’m not a writer and know nothing about writing screenplays but if I was screenwriter I would seriously write a script like this and see if someone like Spike Lee would be interested. Such a movie would cause white people to see racism in a way they never could’ve imagined. They would be able to put themselves emotionally in our shoes if they could see the imagery on screen. They’d be enraged watching blacks spraying whites with fire hoses like dogs in the streets and lashing white men with whips in the fields while black men rape their blond teenage daughters. Can you imagine how powerful and provocative such a film would be?
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^ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Man's_Burden_(film)
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King:
Re:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Man's_Burden_(film)
I saw this “B” movie. It was a VHS only release, if I recall. It was poorly written, directed, a frivolous misuse of acting talent, and a completely wasted opportunity to highlight an important – alternate – view of racism. In other words, it truly stunk!!!
Its only merit – for those studying cinema, it’s an ideal example of how one should NOT to make a movie. It, imo, is the perfect sort of movie Hollywood would release about RACISM. A film that had absolutely no chance to be well received.
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Never heard of the White Man’s Burden movie. Too bad it flopped. My vision for such a movie would be more like Roots but in reverse.
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I recall watching White Man’s Burden — sometime during the 90s, I believe it was. It starred Harry Belafonte and John Travolta.
All the oppressed whites still managed to keep their own natural hair textures and coloring, as well as their light complexions and Western / Euro clothing styles. I remember thinking that it would have been far more realistic if they had worn Afrocentric hair and clothing styles, and if at least some made a point to alway keep their skin as deeply tanned as possible.
Otherwise than that, the movie was utterly forgettable.
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Churchs needs to read an AP Economics textbook, along with some supplemental reading, ‘Naked Economists’ is a good one.
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@ Matari
I heard that about it too although I didn’t see it. I thought the subject matter was pretty interesting. Somebody else should try to do a better job of it,
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@ The Space Between the Stars
I’m a little beyond AP Economics and The Naked Economist. Besides, The Naked Economist by Wheelan is a mixed bag. On the one hand, it does a good job of explaining economic concepts for the beginner. But it goes off the rails by advocating government solutions for everything. Seriously, how dumb do you have to be not to realize that special interestts have too much influence on the government? And he wants to expand government so that they can have even more influence? #smh
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@ Church I agree seems you have a solid base on finance and economics that is presented at the college level. I have been having trouble getting back to you on the Australian question I presented you. I would like to say that the bidding war between China and Japan is keeping keeping the coals warm in Australian mineral markets. Truck drivers are still making a lot of money over there but the housing market would be the reason I would put it on my watch list. Housing has sky rocketed and that is watch.
Halle Berry as a white chick would still be Halle Berry. Vivica Fox might not have been replaced by her. Still I really did like Lisa Bonet but she would probably have shared the fate as not Halle Berry if this was based on the topic.
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@ king of the road
Truck drivers are still making a lot of money over there but the housing market would be the reason I would put it on my watch list. Housing has sky rocketed and that is watch.
The housing market is one of the reasons I’d put it on my watch list… for a correction. Australia has one of the highest mortgage to income ratio in the world. Homebuyers in most countries pay about 3 times their annual income for a home. In Australia its closer to 7. That makes them very vulnerable.
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@Abagond, was this an easy one to write, or did you sometimes get things upside down ?
@Ashley
I do. Same as for “flesh” or “skin-color” or “natural color” bras, tops and underwear. I even wrote to some companies to ask them to change the labels and/or make stuff for everyone to wear. The point being that it should show as little a possible under clothing. I bought multiple-shade band-aid for my family.
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@ Dahoman X
They are referring to “race”. You summed it up quite well…
“Race” is not a physical description, but a sociological labeling.
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@Jennifer
There are people who actually do that… Wow. This is the kind of stuff that’s totally beyond me.
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@ Cornlia
The hard part was cutting it down to 500 words, deciding what to throw out.
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One of the things I was wondering about is; detroit gets brought up a lot but has there been any city in the US that has become majority black that has either maintained or gone up in value?
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^ Atlanta did back in the 90s. I haven’t checked on it lately
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@ Church, sorry that is what I mean they are due for a huge correction. When I first came over in Japan many Australians were over here to work a few years and buy their house. The land size was unbelieveable. Now, they are jamming the money into Australian dollars while the mining boom is still going on you can see how spotty the distrubtion of money is. When the correction comes it seems as if the government there is relying on the bidding war. As you might know the new Prime Minister in Japan is depreciating the yen.
@ Church again, I use to believe in privatization. Except that when private companies make big mistakes, who regulates them?
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Agabond, have you heard of the Nacirema tribe?
Check it out:
Click to access miner_nacirema.pdf
Wikipedia them after you read the article.
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I challenge ABAGOND to justify his believes via email. I think that your views are not correct. my email is jackant2013@yahoo.com.au. I also believe that you have become the very thing you are arguing against and that there is a reason why black people get the most problems with racism. Maybe we both will learn something.
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You know Abagond,
Deep down white people do not really believe in their lies…so phrases like “good-looking for a Black woman” are truly oxymoron because they secretly deem Black women to be the most beautiful in the first place..
I have heard this coming from white classmates and professors time and time again.
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I really think they should make a movie about if America was this way, a whole history reversed, white boys being shot down in the streets like dogs by the police or vigilantes, and later portrayed as trailer park thugs who deserved it anyway, white women going missing and no one giving a damn, white men going to prison in ever increasing numbers over minor drug offenses that blacks get away with all the time, and people seeing nothing wrong with it. Yes it could be quite the movie, perhaps spike lee could direct(I don’t know who else wouldn’t apply the white lens and is popular enough to garner more mainstream attention), Samuel L. Jackson and Forrest Whittaker could be the racist cops who blast Zac Efron for being in the wrong neighborhood, and having a phantom gun, and Denzel could be the courageous black lawyer who helps his family fight for justice. Ebonics is the official language(west African language wouldn’t work for practical reasons), I’m just spitballing here, and probably should have stopped a few lines ago….
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@Phoebeprunette
Well said and I just realized this recently!
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Actually, Joaquin, that’s a movie I’d look forward to viewing! I think Samuel L. Jackson, Forest Whitaker and Denzel Washington would be perfect in the roles such as you envision them!
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Reblogged this on Absurdist Coffee and commented:
A recommended and eye opening read for any person who doesn’t understand “white privilege.”
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@ King,
I think your post sums it up. The story is being repackaged, especially by Republicans as racist code for “black is bad”. I think the real story, the story you outlined needs to be told, and the media isn’t doing it. Pisses me off.
The only critique I have is that if “we” are all in it together. If we take our motto of E Plurubus Unum seriously then I think than saying it is white arrogance that brought down Detroit we should say American arrogance. I get your point though F**k Church. Guys a deranged dick.
“Don’t don’t let anyone deceive you. This is really a story about how White arrogance lost out to Japanese ingenuity and hard work. Once the Whites were beaten, they abandoned the city in mass, leaving it a mess.
But now the story is being repackaged as if the real defining problems were about Black mismanagement and government corruption. Detroit was already reeling when Coleman Young took the helm in 1974 and the city’s fate was sealed, not by the city government but by the White leaders of Chrysler, Chevrolet, Ford, GM, Buick and Oldsmobile. That was the real power in Detroit and the real problem. And that is the real reason why Detroit is a wasteland today.”
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I have been told that when President Obama’s father attempted to take his White wife back to Kenya to be with his family, he was told by his father that he could not bring the White person back home! Is this true and is this reverse racism in an African Elite family.
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