Sub-Saharan Africa (1955), or sSA for short, means Africa south of the Sahara. In practice it means all of Africa except for the countries in the very north – Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco and Western Sahara. It is a way to say “Black Africa” and talk about black Africans without sounding racist.
The term is beloved by the United Nations, the IMF, the World Bank, The Economist, CNN, American think tanks, anthropologists and others. It goes back to the 1950s but did not drive out “Black Africa” and “tropical Africa” and come into its own till the 1980s.
From what I have read sub-Saharan Africa is:
- A place of Aids – above all else.
- A place of dying mothers, economic outlooks and weak governments.
- A place of poverty – with most of the world’s reserves of gold, platinum, chromium and cobalt.
- A place of hunger – that grows flowers for India, wheat for South Korea, bad-tasting tea for Lipton and biofuels for machines in China.
- A place in constant need of foreign aid, American strategies, population control, sad comparisons with other parts of the world and endless statistics.
- A place where outsiders think they know best.
Here is a United Nations picture of sub-Saharan Africa:
Like the word itself, it places a white person at the centre.
The term “sub-Saharan Africa” is Eurocentric and racist:
- “Sub” means below the Sahara. But “below” from whose point of view? Like “Middle East” and “Far East” the word is Eurocentric.
- “Sub” brings to mind “lesser than” – subhuman, subpar, substandard, etc. Maybe it is just my imagination, but given how heavily the word is used with the Broken Africa stereotype, probably not. Words catch on for a reason.
- Mauritania: If it was truly about the Sahara and not race, Mauritania would never be counted as sub-Saharan: Its capital, like most of the country, is hardly south of the Sahara. A geographic Freudian slip.
- It divides Africa according to white ideas of race – making North Africans white enough to count their achievements among the glories of white history but not white enough to, you know, respect the sovereignty of their nations.
- It sees all black Africans as being somehow alike, even though:
- They speak a thousand different languages belonging to six different language families.
- They follow different religions – Islam, Christianity and countless smaller ones.
- They have more genetic diversity than an African offshoot known as “the rest of the world”.
- The soft bigotry of the Saharan Barrier Thesis – the idea that, until white people came to save the day in the 1400s, the Sahara had cut off black people from the rest of the world, thus accounting for their sad-but-true “inferiority”. People believe this even though before the 1400s:
- Islam was found on both sides of the Sahara.
- Christianity was found on both sides.
- Female genital mutilation was found on both sides.
- Arabic and Afro-Asiatic languages were found on both sides.
- Type O blood was found equally on both sides.
- Trade and the Nile flowed right through the Sahara.
– Abagond, 2013.
See also:
Sub-Saharan is a racist term, I agree with you. I preferred Black Africa, because I do not see the word black as being demeaning. It is oversimplified though, because so-called black are not really black but all sorts of lovely shades of chocolate, coffee, toffee, cinnamon etc. Nor are whites white, but loads of shades of pink. So I can accept Black Africa being neither positive nor negative, but just simplification if you take it to mean countries whose populations is mostly “black”. At least it is correct, but as you wrote above, saying Mauritania is sub-Saharan gives the game away: whitey wants to hide his racism.
Finally, the Sahara may not very hospitable, but history tells us that since before antiquity, it has been a highway for trade and people on the move, in both directions. Benin and Ghana were remarkable and refined kingdoms and Timbuktu was a world centre of culture…until fanatics created by indiscriminate Western persecutions destroyed it a few weeks ago.
Colonialists are ignorant and this ignorance endures. Or are they? Is that not just an excuse? Colonial powers went to Africa because they had heard of its riches and culture. Here is a parallel: the Romans conquered and civilised Europe, giving it the pax Romana etc etc. Really?…in fact they only conquered the areas they knew were sure to yield profit, so they left Scotland and Northern Germany/Scandinavia because their envoys reported these areas were poor and would only drain resources. Post-Roman Colonial powers acted/are acting in exactly the same way.
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Sorry, me again. I am so glad female genital mutilations is mentioned, because this is a very serious issueclose to my heart, but I would also like to mention that according to Michel de Montaigne (French Renaissance writer) there were parts of Eastern Europe where it was practised in his days. It is also still practised in parts of today’s Asia. God only knows how any culture can develop this sort of torture in the name of hygiene and morals, but it is not an African monopoly!
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Sounds racist to me. I firmly believe cultures should be called by the names they gave themselves.
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If you think Non-Mediterranean Africa is better, so be it.
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“Sub” brings to mind “lesser than”
Sub tropical, Sub arctic, Sub Saharan. All geographical terms. I think you’re reading too much into it. When you look at a map, Sub Saharan Africa actually is below the Sahara. If medieval cartographers had put the Southern hemisphere at the top then it wouldn’t be. But they didn’t.
If it was truly about the Sahara and not race, Mauritania would never be counted as sub-Saharan
If geography were solely about land characteristics then Mauritania might not be counted as sub-Saharan. But its not. Geography is about both land and people. North Africa is generally arab / caucasian while Sub Saharan Africa is mostly “black”. I’ve never been to Mauritania so I don’t know what the people look like. But it would make socio-political sense to lump a majority black country in with SSA even if it were located in the Southern Sahara.
It sees all black Africans as being somehow alike,
Maybe. But I’ve repeatedly argued with blacks that not all Africans were the same. Indeed, there are at least three different races in SSA. Many Africans are aware of the differences and some don’t even consider the others fully human.
I’ve noticed an inconsistency among blacks when it comes to Africa. Many claim North Africans are non native even though they’ve been there for tens of thousands of years. Others say North Africans (moors, egyptians, etc) are black in order to claim the entire continent as well as hijack the North Africans’ heritage and achievements.
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I prefer just Africa.
You are right, Abagond, that “If it was truly about the Sahara and not race, Mauritania would never be counted as sub-Saharan”
There are millions of blacks who live all across the Sahara, as their ancestors have lived for thousands of years, so I just can’t understand why the theory of some Sahara border/barrier still persists.
Gnawas (whom the French once called, “indigenous Moroccans,” Haratin, Siwis, Nubians, etc are blacks (as Americans would define blacks) and generally live north of “Sub-Saharan” Africa
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@Churchs
“Many claim North Africans are non native even though they’ve been there for tens of thousands of years. Others say North Africans (moors, egyptians, etc) are black in order to claim the entire continent as well as hijack the North Africans’ heritage and achievements.”
Many North Africans are indeed non native, as proven by not just genetics but by their own historical accounts. If you knew anything about history, you’d know that many Eurasian people invaded North Africa over a long period of time, i.e., N. Africa was part of the Roman empire (after the Greeks, Persians, Assyrians, Hyksos), then the Arabians invaded in the 7th century followed by the Ottomans in the 14th century, and later, more Arabians, French, English etc. No these invaders didn’t vanish into thin air, they settled, populated and drove out most but no not all the indigenous Africans.
The ancient Nile Valley civilisations (i.e., Egypt, Libya, Siwi, Gnawa, etc.) are self-proclaimed to be indigenous–that’s the difference, and we can also point to evidence to prove it.
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*correction* ancient North African civilisations (i.e., Egypt, Libya, Siwi, Gnawa, etc.)
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If you knew anything about history, you’d know that many Eurasian people invaded North Africa resw77
I know plenty about history. I know plenty about phylogenetic analysis as well. From The American Journal of Human Genetics:
A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in North Africa
DNA don’t lie.
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@Churchs
The study’s findings are revealed in the first sentence of the abstract: “We have typed 275 men from five populations in Algeria, Tunisia, and Egypt with a set of 119 binary markers and 15 microsatellites from the Y chromosome, and we have analyzed the results together with published data from Moroccan populations.”
THe HYPOTHESIS is revealed in the latter part: “Since the estimates of the times to the most recent common ancestor (TMRCAs) of the most common haplogroups are quite recent, we SUGGEST that the North African pattern of Y-chromosomal variation is largely of Neolithic origin. ”
Do you see that word “Suggest”? It’s used b/c it’s the hypothesis. Do you know what a hypothesis is?
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@Churchs
The term “Neolithic” is overbroad (and overused) anyway
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to be honest i didn’t originally see the term as racist because the sahara desert is a physical place. only the connotations that were added to it (i.e. the broken africa stereotype, dividing the continent by ‘race’ and claiming the desert somehow separated africans from the rest of humanity) i saw as racist.
however, when you said it’s eurocentric because it’s only sub- from europe’s point of view, that was a very good point i didn’t think of before. for the kemetics (ancient egyptians) south was what we call north & vice versa. on top of that, it ignores the fact that the sahara desert used to be a forest and so never was a barrier to anyone (and still isn’t).
anyway, i agree with resw77 in that this division of the same bloody landmass is pointless, especially when done by people other than the natives. i just stick with africa and done.
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“Churchs
I know plenty about history. I know plenty about phylogenetic analysis as well. From The American Journal of Human Genetics
DNA don’t lie.
Geography is about both land and people. North Africa is generally arab / caucasian while Sub Saharan Africa is mostly “black”. I’ve never been to Mauritania so I don’t know what the people look like. But it would make socio-political sense to lump a majority black country in with SSA even if it were located in the Southern Sahara.”
Linda says,
I agree, DNA doesn’t lie but pseudo-intellectuals with an agenda can/ and often do tend to bend the “truth” sometimes to suit their opinions or theories to further a western/”white” ideological prejudices and stereotypes about groups of people.
Just because Africans and US government like to call Egyptians and north Africans white, does not mean they actually ARE white–
they are not — they are mixture of Eurasian and African ancestry (and we can’t say if the African gene is “black or white” either because the terms are fake western terms that shouldn’t even BE applied to Africa by western scholars because of the Diverse ethnical ancestry of the continent)
Look at the Copts–these people are descendants of the ancient Egyptians and they were NOT white/caucasian.
That being said, the Egyptians and majority of north Africans carry a substantial amount of black African genes — so by western standards, they are “mixed race”—how much? now that’s the question.
since Y-chromosome is only half of the equation, what about the X / mDNA?
Here is a article that’s a little convoluted but gives a breakdown (also by periods of migration and region) of just how much “Eurasian and black African” genes/DNA are carried by the Egyptians, East Africans, and North Africans.
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I absolutely believe “sub-Saharan-Africa” to be a racist term. I took a class years ago at Penn State concerning the African continent in the 20th century, and I remember distinctly that just that one class covered the entire African continent, while Asia and Europe were separated into many different classes. Sub-Saharan or “Black” Africa, or even worse, “Dark” Africa were terms that described the cradle of civilization more than once. Northern Africa is considered part of the Middle East and South Africa, even today with the abolition of Apartheid, is still considered European; and therefore more modern and free from many of the white stigmas that still cripple western and middle Africa today.
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@resw77 Do you see that word “Suggest”? It’s used b/c it’s the hypothesis. Do you know what a hypothesis is?
Yes. I know what a “hypothesis” is. Its my understanding, you wish to discount the study because it because it hasn’t been proven. Well, of course not. That’s not how science works. Contrary to popular misconception, very little in science is ever proven. One can never really prove anything. One can only disprove something. If no one can disprove something then it becomes accepted until such time that it should be disproven. At least that’s the way physics works. Phylogenetics is a little less rigorous in that researchers publish their work. Other researchers read the journals reviewing their methods and results as the need arises. If someone finds a problem they’ll write a competing paper to contest either their methods, their results or the interpretation of the data. But, once again, nothing is ever proven — only disproven. At any rate, that paper has been out for several years and, as far as I know, no one has contested it. At this point, the evidence supports their “hypothesis” over your claim. And linda’s link to Mathilda’s blog didn’t do you any favors, either. It’s chock full of studies saying the same thing.
@ linda I agree, DNA doesn’t lie but pseudo-intellectuals with an agenda can/ and often do tend to bend the “truth” sometimes to suit their opinions or theories to further a western/”white” ideological prejudices and stereotypes about groups of people.
Wow. That sure was some fancy insulting, pardner. But I described North Africans as “caucasion” and some SSA as “negr0” — not “white” and “black”. Whereas you spent most of your response haggling over who is or isn’t “white”. And did you even take the time to read and understand Mathilda’s article? Unless you’re going to claim some lame “one drop rule” her article and the studies it linked overwhelmingly suported my position and refuted yours. That’s what you get for trying to argue topics over your head. *smh*
Also, you should google some pics of Coptic Christians or watch some on Youtube before saying “they were NOT white/caucasian”. I’ve known a few and most of them looked “white” to me.
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“Churchs
Wow. That sure was some fancy insulting, pardner. But I described North Africans as “caucasion” and some SSA as “negr0″ — not “white” and “black”. Whereas you spent most of your response haggling over who is or isn’t “white”. And did you even take the time to read and understand Mathilda’s article? Unless you’re going to claim some lame “one drop rule” her article and the studies it linked overwhelmingly suported my position and refuted yours. That’s what you get for trying to argue topics over your head. *smh*”
Linda says,
I’m glad you appreciated my “fancy” footwork, Churchs, but if I really wanted to insult you, I would have just said, “you’re full of s’it”, now that’s an insult 🙂
you haven’t really said much about anything except that north Africans are “caucasian/ Arabs” and that black people are “inconsistent” and they claim that north Africans are non-native to Africa.
when resw77 stated that “Many North Africans are indeed non native, as proven by not just genetics but by their own historical accounts”, you got insulted and stated that you are a well-educated and proceeded to bring in an article to prove just how educated you are.
Then you also state,
“church@ Others (blacks) say North Africans (moors, egyptians, etc) are black in order to claim the entire continent as well as hijack the North Africans’ heritage and achievements.” –which shows you do have an agenda –be honest.
I was with you until you made this statement
“churchs@Geography is about both land and people. North Africa is generally arab / caucasian while Sub Saharan Africa is mostly “black”.
now, with this statement you ignored your own article and did exactly what Abagonds post discusses ..you “one dropped” sub Saharan Africa even though your article clearly mentions that north Africans, east Africans and some west Africans share similar mtDNA:
“A compilation of 185 mtDNAs sampled across North Africa showed (1) that about half of the lineages belonged to the L haplogroups otherwise observed mainly in sub-Saharan Africa” …
you went right on ahead and divided the African continent based on “phenotype” …. so, I do believe you are the person who believes in the US one-drop rule (which is a fake, made-up American bulls’it rule)
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–to continue, Churchs:
Linda says,
and you’re the one that can’t read, sunshine — because I don’t know how you figure Mathilde is backing you up…
unless you are referring to your comment about black Americans highjacking north African history, then yes, that’s one thing you and Mathilda do have in common – you don’t like afrocentrist viewpoints:
Mathilda:
“Honestly, I didn’t start anthropolgy as an Afrocentrist hater. It’s the abuse I’ve got for posting known facts about human remains, artifacts and DNA studies in North and East Africa that’s done it.”
…but she is basically stating, just like your equally convoluted article, that north Africans are mixed-race…so how did they end up being “caucasian” in your eyes and everyone else is “black”? …that’s right, you used you’re “eyes” (phenotype) and not the DNA information that was in your article or Mathilda’s because she is not Eurocentric either:
Mathilda:
“The ancient Egyptian and modern Egyptian populations both show a mix of Negroid and Caucasoid features, to about the same degree. They don’t show a relationship to the Niger-Congo Africans on the West coast any more than they do the Nordics. They are similar to Ethiopians and modern North Africans though, who are all mixed.”
and she shows just how much native African and Arab/Eurasian is found in Egypt” based on both male and female lineage: “From Krings 1999. Which also shows that Egyptian maternal DNA is roughly 25% sub Saharan and 75% Eurasian.”
If you are saying “caucasian” as in “Eurasian” by way of middle east, then I will get off your back, but the way you’re using “caucasian” seems to imply “white” because YOU first brought in the term “black” when you labelled the rest of the continent..so yeah, I have to question your use of “caucasian” since Americans tend to use the term “caucasian” to mean “white”
If your position was that the north Africans were native to the continent of Africa, then I could understand why you might have thought the AJHG article which didn’t really prove anything in that regard.
What your article does acknowledge is that north Africans are “mixed race” and It also spends time discussing the neolithic/Arabic nature of the Y-chromosome and what differentiates the north from the south; as well as the commonalities north Africans share with the rest of Africa.
AJHG:
“Second, just two haplogroups predominate within North Africa, together making up almost two-thirds of the male lineages: E3b2 and J* (42% and 20%, respectively). E3b2 is rare outside North Africa and is otherwise known only from Mali, Niger, and Sudan to the immediate south, and the Near East and Southern Europe at very low frequencies”
Why did you even bring in the AJHG article? what were you trying to prove? that the north Africans are indeed native to Africa…
then if that was your mission, you should have just focused on the commanities that the north Africans shared with their southern neighbors in order to prove that the north Africans ancestors were indeed indigenous to the continent, such as their shared black African genes
or that north and south of the Sahara share a common history of being invaded by the Arabs (because the Eurasian gene can also be found in sub Saharan Africans) — this Eurasian gene doesn’t make them any less African.
h’ll, if you had mentioned the Copts or the Berbers, you would have validated your statement because both of these groups are native, indigenous African ethnic groups — but you didn’t state any of these things — you didn’t say much of anything at all.
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It is absolutely racist. It is that old mentality carried over from “the scramble for Africa” during the Berlin Conference of 1884. Until that time, the term “sub saharan” was not in use. It is used to separate and divide and stifle economic and social progress within African.
When whites use the terms “sub saharan” Africa they are mostly referring to stereotypical phenotypes associated with Black people. The fault with this reasoning is that there is no single Black phenotype in Africa or anywhere else. Even within certain African ethnic groups there is genetic diversity which dictates hair textures and types, eye color, nose shape, skin tone, etc….yet it is still Blackness.
Even the “liberal” white scholars of African History and Geography use the term sub saharan–like Basil Davidson and others. They still have not learned and it becomes counterproductive for Black scholars to cite and use their works while teaching the newer generations of Black students–i’m going off on a tangent–but this is mainly where the term sub saharan has a lot of steam–in academia.
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@ churchs
“Its my understanding, you wish to discount the study because it because it hasn’t been proven. Well, of course not. That’s not how science works. ”
I don’t need a lesson from you when you’re the one who tried to pass off this hypothesis as fact. I’m the one who pointed out that it was not fact.
It’s simply impossible to determine:
(1) when those sampled people arrived
(2) how they arrived and
(3) whence they arrived.
Therefore the hypothesis is completely meaningless. In fact, the study’s abstract doesn’t even tell you which people were sampled…what ethnicity were they? Not all Moroccans are the same, and yes, some are “black,” like the Gnawas.
You’re just desperately trying to prove that the Eurasian descendants in N. Africa are indigenous…but even if the “Neolithic” hypothesis were true, it still begs the question:
What part of the “Neolithic” period did they arrive? 10000 BC or as late as 2000 BC?
Either way, they couldn’t possibly be the ancestors of the ancient Egyptians or the indigenous Amazigh (which is what you really want to prove), b/c we have archaeological evidence of their existence prior to the “Neolithic” period
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I think black Africa and sub Saharan Africa are both racist terms. It’s just Africa, period. And as far as black folks, they’re on both sides of the Sahara as well. Nobody is ever talking about Europe in terms of brown Europe vs. white Europe even though there are Italians, Greeks and Spaniards with very dark skin. They’re all considered white and European. Recently I saw the King Tut exhibit and at the end there was a film about Tut’s paternity and his childhood. The reenactment actors all had white skin. Not tan, pink white skin. White skin, in Egypt, in Africa. WTF?! Please. And go ahead and broach the subject of what race were the Egyptians? The answer is nobody knows. I know they were neither white nor European.
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What jumps out at me is not the word sub-Saharan but the map. The map shows how much power non-African countries wield in Africa. It’s surprising.
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Notice that the study Churchs cited used DNA samples from modern populations in North Africa to back up his claim that “Caucasians” have lived there for tens of millennia. Whatever the genetic affinities of modern North Africans, we actually do have some DNA obtained from ancient North African people (King Tut and his family, no less) which doesn’t agree with these conclusions, at least as far as the Nile Valley is concerned:
Click to access dnatribes-digest-2012-01-01.pdf
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“resw77
Either way, they couldn’t possibly be the ancestors of the ancient Egyptians or the indigenous Amazigh (which is what you really want to prove), b/c we have archaeological evidence of their existence prior to the “Neolithic” period”
Linda says,
The indigenous Amazigh (Berbers) were a large group with several different ethnic groups (like the Kabyle) and the Tuaregs (who some scholars claim weren’t really Berbers but are indigenous to north Africa).
These indigenous groups didn’t disappear — they also intermixed with the Arabs (Eurasians); and modern north Africans carry these genes and also (other indigenous genes from south of the Sahara) …
so, are you saying that they are non-native Africans because they are mixed with Eurasian? are their indigenous genes to be discounted and overlooked?
(I am asking for clarification of your points — this is not an exercise as to who is “right” and who is “wrong” as Churchs attempted to make this discussion)
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@ Linda
No, I’m saying that IF his hypothesis were correct (that the majority of the people who are in North Africa today are the SAME as those who came during the “Neolithic” period), then they could not possibly be indigenous, b/c we have evidence of people there prior to their arrival.
I agree that many North Africans are mixed due to over a thousand years of intermixing with Arabians, Ottomans (Turks) and their European slaves invaders (and some may be wholly Eurasian).
I also aforesaid that there are many North Africans, like the Tuaregs, Gnawas, Siwis, Haratins, etc. who are NOT genetically the same as the intermixed or Eurasian majority.
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“resw77
@ Linda
No, I’m saying that IF his hypothesis were correct (that the majority of the people who are in North Africa today are the SAME as those who came during the “Neolithic” period), then they could not possibly be indigenous, b/c we have evidence of people there prior to their arrival.”
Linda says,
Thank you, resw77, for the clarification. That’s what I find interesting about these discussions because academically, there are many viewpoints as to how “indigenous” these early people were.
I guess what I get tired of are the Eurocentrist who do exactly what the Afrocentrist do (but in reverse), which is they try to “claim” the north Africans as “caucasian/white”, using the neolithic era as a way to establish a link to Greece, ancient Europe etc, so therefore, people like the ancient Egyptians achievements were so called “white” achievements.
The original north Africans, like the Berbers, might be considered “caucasian/ white” but people tend to want to discount that even the original Berbers have been mixing over the millennia with other pre-Neolithic indigenous African groups like the Bafour and Soninke.
Since this post is dealing with the imaginary line in the Sahara and how the term “sub-Saharan” is used as a term to divide the African people into simplified westernized versions of race based on the phenotype….
I find it hypocritical of Americans who have no problem calling “mixed people” in America “black” but the modern day Egyptians and north Africans are “caucasian/white” –totally disregarding the fact that the majority also share in the vast indigenous African ethnic gene pools with their neighbors to the south, east, and west.
I don’t like the term “sub Saharan” creates a divisive picture of the continent and it is not a valid indicator of “who is who” in Africa.
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Why don’t they apply the term “sub-Caucus” or “sub-Alpine” to themselves? Inquiring minds want to know. Hell yeah, it’s racist.
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I don’t think the term “sub-Saharan Africa” is any more racist than the terms: African-American, Black American, Afro-Mexican, or Aboriginal (which sounds like “abnormal”). I think these terms are used to categorize race within a nation. For instance, the term “Asian” is commonly used to describe the Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and Vietnamese. When a classmate told me she was Asian, I replied “really?” She didn’t look like the above. She said she gets that reaction a lot because most people only consider the above to be Asian; never Pakistani. Just like most people don’t consider Egyptians African because they don’t look black. This topic reminds me of the Haiti and Dominic Republic race issue.
Great topic. I’m always intrigued by race and nationality.
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The term has racist origins. Hegel, a prominent German philosopher called North Africa “European Africa” then he said the rest of Africa was part of “unconscious nature”. Clearly this was based on the false notions that the only Africans to produce civilizations were North Africans. Perhaps Mr Hegel was unaware of other civilizations such as Mapungubwe, Great Zimbabwe, Axum, Benin, just to mention a few.
Actually, this racial categorization of Africans was meant facilitate the spreading of racist ideologies in the West to justify plundering of African resources. There’s nothing more to it.
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Abagond why is my comment awaiting moderation?
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@ linda now, with this statement you ignored your own article and did exactly what Abagonds post discusses ..you “one dropped” sub Saharan Africa even though your article clearly mentions that north Africans, east Africans and some west Africans share similar mtDNA:
Are you accusing me of applying the “one drop rule” because I said SSAs are “mostly black”? ಠ_ಠ
“you went right on ahead and divided the African continent based on “phenotype” …. so, I do believe you are the person who believes in the US one-drop rule (which is a fake, made-up American bulls’it rule)”
Of course I divided the continent based on “phenotype”. I divide it based on genotype and geography as well. Those 3 divisions align very nicely. That has nothing to do with the “one drop rule”. If I were using the one drop rule then I’d be arguing that any SSA ancestry made them “black”. Have I been arguing that? No.
and you’re the one that can’t read, sunshine — because I don’t know how you figure Mathilde is backing you up…
Well, I can read the first link on her article. I’ll save you the trouble and repost it here.
From Luis et al 2004. “Oman and Egypt’s NRY frequency distributions appear to be much more similar to those of the Middle East than to any sub-Saharan African population, suggesting a much larger Eurasian genetic component.”
…but she is basically stating, just like your equally convoluted article, that north Africans are mixed-race…
Yeah. There is some admixture. So I suppose you can draw that conclusion if you like. But the studies Mathilda cites show North Africans are of overwhelming Eurasian origin and that ancestry predates the SSA. I should also point out that, per Mathilda’s sources, most of the SSA admixture was not of the Bantu variety.
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@ linda so how did they end up being “caucasian” in your eyes and everyone else is “black”? …that’s right, you used you’re “eyes” (phenotype) and not the DNA information that was in your article or Mathilda’s because she is not Eurocentric either:
Well, of course I used my eyes. “Caucasian” is a term used by physical anthropologists to describe certain physical features. Though obviously, populations who share similar genetics will often share certain physical features as well. Did you think phenotype and genotype were mutually exclusive?
“If you are saying “caucasian” as in “Eurasian” by way of middle east, then I will get off your back, but the way you’re using “caucasian” seems to imply “white” because YOU first brought in the term “black” when you labelled the rest of the continent..so yeah, I have to question your use of “caucasian” since Americans tend to use the term “caucasian” to mean “white” “
Well, don’t do me any favors. I put “black” in quotations because the term isn’t normally used in phylogenetics. I was merely making the point that North Africans aren’t negr0s in terms most could understand. I didn’t mention “white” until you did. Yet you thought I meant “white” because the article I linked said “neolithic”? “Neolithic” is commonly understood to mean middle east circa 10,000 BC. You should realize, however, that roughly European ancestry is largely of neolithic origin as well. In other words, both north africa and europe derive most of their ancestry from the middle east during the neolithic era. So they’re pretty close regardless of how one chooses to define “white”.
Why did you even bring in the AJHG article? what were you trying to prove? that the north Africans are indeed native to Africa…
The point which should have been obvious from the title is that “North Africans” are of “predominantly neolithic origin”. Neoltihic means middle eastern origins as opposed to sub saharan africa and 10,000 BC as opposed to recent invaders.
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@ resw77 I don’t need a lesson from you when you’re the one who tried to pass off this hypothesis as fact.
Excellent. Then you shouldn’t have any problem finding another peer reviewed study to refute it. 😆
It’s simply impossible to determine:
(1) when those sampled people arrived
(2) how they arrived and
(3) whence they arrived.
Actually, it’s not. They do it all the time.
In fact, the study’s abstract doesn’t even tell you which people were sampled…what ethnicity were they?
You’re right. The Abstract doesn’t tell you those things. That information is found in the main report. There’s a link to it in the top right corner. 🙂
+
@ Brandon S. Pilcher
That’s very interesting. I wouldn’t discount what they say just because their a business selling products over the internet. 🙄 But scientists generally publish their methodology along with their data and and conclusions so that everything is available for peer review. I didn’t notice that on your link. Can you provide any links to that? Or are we just supposed to take their word for it? 😆
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@ churchs
“Excellent. Then you shouldn’t have any problem finding another peer reviewed study to refute it.”
Refute a hypothesis? I can do that by hypothesising, but what you really want is evidence that N. Africans are in SOME WAY genetically related to other Africans, and so just READ THE SAME STUDY YOU CITED.
“Actually, it’s not. They do it all the time.”
I agree “they” make hypothetical statements “all the time.” But, it doesn’t make them factual. That’s what you fail to understand.
“That information is found in the main report. ”
Please enlighten us…what specific Moroccan ethnicity was sampled? (Berber is a Eurasian term that characterizes a bunch of culturally dissimilar groups in Morocco, and “Arab” is a linguistic term in Morocco).
The only factual conclusions from the study are:
1. the sampled people are similar to “Middle Easterners,” which I never doubted. As I said, Arabians and Ottomans were among the most recent invaders of N. Africa, and make up a large part of the region’s genetic makeup.
2. the sampled Moroccans carry E3b2, which “is rare outside North Africa…and is OTHERWISE KNOWN ONLY from MALI, NIGER, and SUDAN to the immediate SOUTH (i.e, “SUB-SAHARAN” AFRICA).
The study you provided still does not provide any FACTUAL evidence as to when, how or whence the sampled Moroccans arrived….only that they are genetically similar to people who currently live in the “Middle East” and parts of “Sub-Saharan” Africa.
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@ churchs
“Neolithic” is commonly understood to mean middle east circa 10,000 BC. You should realize, however, that roughly European ancestry is largely of neolithic origin as well.”
Actually, the “Neolithic” commonly refers to the period BEGINNING c. 10,000 BC and ending at 2,000 BC… either way, there is evidence of civilisation in N. Africa long BEFORE the Neolithic period.
Thanks for affirming that Europeans were not first in N. Africa.
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I like the term South Saharan Africa or South of the Sahara. I dislike the term Sub-Saharan Africa for pretty much all of the reasons you listed. I just think it had a negative connotation
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@poetess
“I think black Africa and sub Saharan Africa are both racist terms. It’s just Africa, period. ”
I was thinking the same exact thing, but then I saw you said it already.
But, I guess it should be OK to say North Africa, East Africa, West Africa, Central Africa, etc. Even Tropical Africa should be OK. They use these same terms for Asia and America.
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resw77
Refute a hypothesis?
We both know you’re using that as an excuse to avoid conclusions you don’t like. Do your denials change reality?
but what you really want is evidence that N. Africans are in SOME WAY genetically related to other Africans, and so just READ THE SAME STUDY YOU CITED.
No. That’s not what I want. You say it’s what I want to avoid addressing the real topic. However, I should point out that the study shows those genes originated in north africa and spread to the sub sahara. That’s opposite of what you’ve been arguing.
I agree “they” make hypothetical statements “all the time.” But, it doesn’t make them factual.
The data on which those conclusions are based is factual.
what specific Moroccan ethnicity was sampled?
Table 1 lists the towns from which the various samples were taken. You’re looking for excuses to reject the data. That tells me you know you’re wrong.
As I said, Arabians and Ottomans were among the most recent invaders of N. Africa, and make up a large part of the region’s genetic makeup.
The study shows that half of north african lineages originated in the Near East and spread into North Africa ∼30 thousand years ago when north africa was uninhabited. The other haplogroups evolved internally among north africans and spread to subsaharan africa. Not the other way around. It also shows that there has been a continued influx of genes from the near east over an extended period of time. But it shows the more recent arab invasion you keep talking about had very little impact.
You should stop being ignorant and actually read the study. It makes a very strong case. Plus, it’s interesting. At least, I find it interesting to learn about ancient migrations and how the various peoples are related.
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@ Churchs
“Do your denials change reality”
What have I denied? I pointed out the difference between fact and hypothesis, which you are still have trouble understanding (it happens with your type). I totally accept the FACTUAL results of the study.
“However, I should point out that the study shows those genes originated in north africa and spread to the sub sahara.”
Again, you’re having trouble distinguishing fact from opinion. There is no way of telling where they originated. That’s a seemingly logical opinion, but the factual results of the study are the genetic data and nothing else. The fact is that the sampled Moroccans are genetically similar to both Arabians and some Sub-Saharan Africans…I don’t deny that fact at all.
“The study shows that half of north african lineages originated in the Near East and spread into North Africa ∼30 thousand years ago when north africa was uninhabited. ”
That is incorrect. PERHAPS you need re-read the article and/or stop being deceitful:
“that about half of the [sampled] lineages belonged to the L haplogroups OTHERWISE OBSERVED MAINLY IN SUB-SAHARAN AFRICA and (2) that most [not all] of the REST fell into haplogroup U6, which PERHAPS originated in the Near East and spread into North Africa ∼30 thousand years”
Half were related to Sub-Saharan Africans. And PERHAPS (a clue for you that it’s yet another opinion) U6 originated 30,000 yrs ago….U6, by the way, is just as prevalent in Kenya as it is in Morocco, and so how is it possible to conclude where it originated and when? I’m eager to know.
It’s clear you can’t accept the facts of the study and choose to instead focus on the non-factual hypotheses,
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“Churchs
Linda@ but she is basically stating, just like your equally convoluted article, that north Africans are mixed-race
Churchs@ Yeah. There is some admixture. So I suppose you can draw that conclusion if you like. But the studies Mathilda cites show North Africans are of overwhelming Eurasian origin and that ancestry predates the SSA.
I should also point out that, per Mathilda’s sources, most of the SSA admixture was not of the Bantu variety.”
Linda says,
Golly gee, Churchs, it must have hurt to admit that the north Africans are actually mixed-race but I have to ask…
who said that the north Africans were mixed with “Bantu” ? because I sure didn’t say that in my posts.
I didn’t bring in Mathilde in order to allude to the subSaharan ethnic/racial admixture of the north Africans as “Bantu” — (since when did subSaharan mean “Bantu” anyway?)…so why do you even bring it up.
there are more ethnic groups in Africa besides the Bantus who are considered “subSaharan” by western standards– such as the Oromos, Nubians and Songhai (and many other ethnic groups)
See, churchs, this is what I’m talking about — your last sentence just shows that you have an Agenda and this is when I stop taking you seriously because you are either Eurocentric or a race realist because I’ve noticed they also use the word “Bantu” to imply “black” — just like they use the word “caucasian” to imply “white” …
“churchs@
I realize arabs and europeans are both caucasian. I’m distinguishing between arabs and other whites because most white americans are non arabic and those are the ones abagond appears to have a problem with.”
you keep protesting that you are not making this a “black or white” issue by using the term “caucasian” but your above statements say otherwise.
so be honest, Churchs – you are not some impartial disciple of anthropology just trying to seek the truth
and yes, I know, “you never claimed to be impartial or an anthropological seeker of the truth” (Just thought I would throw in your disclaimer to save you time — I don’t mind doing you favors)
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@ resw77
Half were related to Sub-Saharan Africans. And PERHAPS (a clue for you that it’s yet another opinion) U6 originated 30,000 yrs ago….U6, by the way, is just as prevalent in Kenya as it is in Morocco, and so how is it possible to conclude where it originated and when? I’m eager to know.
Well, since you asked… the entire L and U haplogroups orginated in Eurasia. And the haplogroups they diverged from originated in Eurasia, too. And so on and so on. Check mate. GAME OVER!
–
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_L_%28Y-DNA%29#Origins
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_U6#Origins
–
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“Churchs,
Well, don’t do me any favors. I put “black” in quotations because the term isn’t normally used in phylogenetics. I was merely making the point that North Africans aren’t negr0s in terms most could understand. I didn’t mention “white” until you did. Yet you thought I meant “white” because the article I linked said “neolithic”?
Linda says,
No, Churchs, I did Not think that you meant “white” because your article said “neolithic”
Your discussion with resw77 about the evolution or authenticity of the North African ancestry has nothing to do with it. — I made my “assumption” based on the words you wrote about modern day Africans.
I told you clearly that I felt you implied “white” based on your following statement:
“Churchs@
Geography is about both land and people. North Africa is generally arab / caucasian while Sub Saharan Africa is mostly “black”
why use the term “arab” and “Caucasian” to describe the north Africans and you use a colour, “black”, to describe the people who are classified as “sub-Saharan Africans” ?
Why didn’t you use comparative terms to describe the various ethnic groups found in sub-Saharan Africa? – you could have easily described them (SSA) as Hausa, Nilotic, Amharic, Oromo, Khoisan, Sudanic or even Mande (just examples) –
If you were really trying to be anthropologically correct, you could have even tossed in the terms “Caucasoid, Negroid or Capoid” since certain large ethnic groups in east Africa (classified as SSA) are considered Semitic and Semitic ethnic groups fall into the Caucasoid category.
so are you seriously trying to say that you did not mean to imply that north Africans were “white” because you didn’t use a colour to describe them?!
So I guess Meiners and Blumenbach didn’t use the word Caucasian to mean “white” either – they were just trying to be anthropologically correct –
So be honest, “cupcake”… stop trying to act brand new …
The word Caucasian, for sure, has undergone political changes but it was/is used to descibe people as “white” – there’s nothing new about that.
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@ linda
All that because I referred to North Africans as “caucasian” and SSA as “black”? Well, they are.
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“Churchs
@ linda
All that because I referred to North Africans as “caucasian” and SSA as “black”? Well, they are.”
Linda says,
yeah, all that because you’re a dishonest, bulls’it artist sunshine 🙂
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And I thought we were friends. 😦
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@ churchs
Again, you’re being deceitful.
The article doesn’t say it was haplogroup L-M20 which is most frequent in Pakistan and India (particularly among the black Siddis), it says
“L haplogroups OTHERWISE OBSERVED MAINLY IN SUB-SAHARAN AFRICA”.
Therefore, it is referring to macro-haplogroup L” which (using your same source) says,
“Putting aside its sub-branches, haplogroups M and N, L haplogroups are predominant ALL OVER sub-Saharan Africa”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macro-haplogroup_L_%28mtDNA%29#Sub-Saharan_Africa
You can’t pull a fast one on me.
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Another tempest in a teapot here? I always thought sub-Saharan Africa referred to the climate change between the desert of the north transitioning to the jungles and other regions south of it. Never knew nor have I ever seen any indication that it referred to race. With north at the top of most maps for no other reason than sea travel history and convention, the Sahara is at the top of Africa. I wonder if the Texans complain about being at the bottom of the United States on maps.
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@ resw77 Again, you’re being deceitful.
Not deceitful. Simply mistaken. I went to the Wikipedia article for “Human Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup”, scrolled down to “Major Y-DNA haplogroups” and clicked “Haplogroup L” in the Tree View. It took me to the page for “Haplogroup L-M20 (Y-DNA)”. I thought it was the same thing. My bad. See, when I make a mistake I don’t lie and deny. I own up to it.
Regardless, you claimed “many North Africans” were “non native” “eurasian invaders”.
I claimed they weren’t. And I can back it up with evidence that haplotype U6 entered North Africa from the near east ~30,000 years ago.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC270091/
So now I’m going to punt. Have you got anything to connect SSA migrations to North Africa prior to 30,000 years ago?
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@ churchs
“I claimed they weren’t. And I can back it up with evidence that haplotype U6 entered North Africa from the near east ~30,000 years ago.”
What evidence? The word “probable” (hint, hint: there’s some doubt!) is used, but no evidence is given. In my line of work, when we say “probable” we MUST back it up with hard data. In this case, there is none whatsover. How did you conclude that it was 30,000 years ago? …Again, I’m very eager to know.
U6 is not exclusive to the “Near East,” (whatever that means). It also exists elsewhere in Africa. The same article you quoted says,
“because there are no consistent traces of U6 lineages in Europe, Northwest Africa is left as the most probable place from where the African U6 subclades radiated. Another point is to decide whether the proto-U6 ancestor was also of African origin.”
The NW African origin theory is just that — a theory. And IF it were true, what makes you think these NW Africans with u6 looked like modern Europeans or “Near Easterners” (whatever that means)?
“Have you got anything to connect SSA migrations to North Africa prior to 30,000 years ago?”
I thought you knew that it is widely accepted worldwide that East/Central Africans migrated north some 60-75,000 years ago. There are many many studies on this subject, so you can do some research on your own to confirm.
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@ resw77
Soooo…..you haven’t noticed that Churchs is just posting as he learns, while posturing, so he comes across someone who is knowledgeable of this subject all along. All to hide the obvious fact that doesn’t really know what he’s talking about. Seeing as how he “boldly punted”, but was wrong when it came down to entry level information.
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@ resw77
What evidence? The word “probable”
The word “probable” refers to U6 probably developing in North Africa as opposed to the near east. Haplogroup U6 developed from “R” which in turn developed from “N”. SSA isn’t even an option as a source for U6 because those are Eurasian haplogroups. Whether U6 developed in the near east and migrated to North Africa or proto U6 migrated to North Africa and then developed into U6, it couldn’t have developed in SSA because the haplogroups it evolved from weren’t there..
Of course, you knew that because the paragraph you quoted said it. Only you omitted that part from the quote because YOU are deceitful. Here is the full quote.
“because there are no consistent traces of U6 lineages in Europe, Northwest Africa is left as the most probable place from where the African U6 subclades radiated. Another point is to decide whether the proto-U6 ancestor was also of African origin. Although it cannot be completely excluded, this hypothesis seems highly improbable even invoking strong bottlenecks in African populations. It is clear that the whole haplogroup U is an offshoot of macrohaplogroup N. This lineage, together with macrohaplogroup M, were the only ones that, belonging to the star radiation of L3 in Africa, left this continent to colonize Eurasia. Five mutations separate N from the root of the African L3 [8], and there are only late evolved N lineages in Africa, whereas representatives of the full N radiation are present in Eurasia. Thus, this continent would be the logical homeland of the proto-U6 that came back to Africa and spread in its northwest area around 30,000 ya (Table 4).”
As far as age is concerned, genetic mutations occur at a predictable rate. Age is determined by counting the number of different mutations in the samples.
The NW African origin theory is just that — a theory. And IF it were true, what makes you think these NW Africans with u6 looked like modern Europeans or “Near Easterners” (whatever that means)?
You claimed they were the descendants of recent Arab and European “invaders” and now you ask why I think they look European and Arab? 😆
“many Eurasian people invaded North Africa over a long period of time, i.e., N. Africa was part of the Roman empire (after the Greeks, Persians, Assyrians, Hyksos), then the Arabians invaded in the 7th century followed by the Ottomans in the 14th century, and later, more Arabians, French, English etc. No these invaders didn’t vanish into thin air, they settled, populated and drove out most but no not all the indigenous Africans.”
There are many many studies on this subject, so you can do some research on your own to confirm.
Its not my job to find studies to support your claims. If you have a study then link it.
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You know Abagond There is a french saying ‘les mêmes causes produisent les mêmes effets’ : Translation = the same causes have the same effects. Everything you said is true but why do African people always fall into the same traps every(damn)day ? All you said african people know it but I don’t understand why for the life of me these africans always act as if the whole world is in “peace” and western world, for example, is friend?
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I have been looking for info on this , does anyone have any further info on this,was christianity found in the western sahara before the europeans came and what about west africa ? any info or links would be much appreciated.
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Excellent analytical and deconstructionist post on how the image of black people and Africa is distorted for psychological and economic gain and exploitation by albinic europeans.
Definitely enhanced my knowledge on the issue of the term sub-Saharan Africa.
Another issue – if race is a false concept ,then racism and racist are delusional irrational concepts ,believed and practiced by irrational and deluded people.
However this still avoids the issue of the albinic populations relative effectiveness in subjugation and exploiting all other populations – and those populations all having greater epidermal melanin content.
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@Bulanik
way to go person (don’t know your gender and assume your avatar is just a picture of a very pretty female)
You’ve added and expanded on this post topic – i’m starting to really like you and look forward to your future comments.
“I remember rejecting these words for Africa as a teenager and being looked at like I was out of my mind. ”
how old are you now if I my ask?
seems like there is something deep inside people like us and it starts early if not from birth or before.
Anyway great comment – commentators like you are the exact opposite of the troll we have to endure.
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@ Bulanik
Great comments. It makes my skin crawl too.
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@Bulanik
your welcome
about age – response accepted;-)
Part of me kinda suspected that was you but wow.
“Just this morning I was thinking that indigenous people of Australia are never “Austral-Asians”, but called “Aboriginals” instead.”
and she shoots and scores Again!
“But seriously now, Mbeti: language is a weapon.”
You don’t say ,coming from one as noble and wise as you I’m tempted to accept it at face value and truth but to be accurate language like everything is generally neutral to its primary purpose – example a chair is a tool/device for sitting but you could also use it to threaten injure or kill Or use it for fuel in a tight situation(if wood).
Language’s primary purpose is a means of communication – the type of communication that’s another matter.
” I don’t always understand everything, but, actually, that’s a general problem of mine: ”
you are not alone on this one for as much as I know or think I know ,there is still a LOT I do not know and thus the joy of learning.
And I definitely like you – cause your not just another pretty face.
Peace and Knowledge.
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Well Im so glad we are all in agreement about “sub sahara black africa” as being racist. we have allowed these entities Abagond mentioned , to define the phrase for us, with implications of misery, war, destruction , rape ,poverty etc.Best we just take this phrase and label it as racist.
I mean after all, its all Africa, many cultures, languages,customs, I mean,it would be ridiculous to think there might be a hookup of concepts , that didnt come down from the Sahara, or, north of the Sahara or from Egypt. It would be crazy to imagine that a body of similar concepts , that stretch from Ghana, Nigeria, Senegal, Mali, Angola,Guinea , Chad, Cameroon, etc from the west, over to Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania , Zambia,Mozambique, etc on the east , The Congo, Zambia, Zimbawe etc in the center, South Africa, Swasiland, Botswana in the south, could actualy be a reality…that is unique to south of the Sahara countries , are linked by a cultural similarity, inspite of differant languages, customs, histories etc…I mean that would be ludicriss, you cant find intellectuals talking about it in universities, or a book, or teaching it in music schools…
I mean, its all Africa, you cant seperate north of the Sahara from the west, east and south…After all, this isnt Europe, where, inspite of differant countries, languages, customs, histories etc, there actualy is culture that links them all together, that is unique to Europe that wasnt expressed anywhere else. No one dealt with harmony like the Europeans or put it on staff paper, making sure to be in charge of every move that the orchestra was making.So, in spite of differant countries, languages, customs, you have European Classical music, with similar concepts in how to write symphonies, operas, ballet, with every step choreographed and thought out.You can have a great composer from Brazil like Villa Lobos, from Brazil, but, he has to write his symphonies to the basic fundamentals of European classical music
But, not Africa, this obviously cant be true.Any semblance of a link that could culturaly bind the people who happen to be black/brown, in sub Sahara Africa, could possibly implicate a body of incredible knowledge , and then the term “sub Sahara black African”, might have to mean something super positive, which would spoil our bead on how racist those entities Abagond pointed out, that they define what it means. It might just shoot these entities dead between the eyes to think that “sub Sahara black Africa” might be the fonte of a body of knowledge that is unbeleivably powerful and unique to itself, like no other body of knowledge outside sub Sahara Africa, except where their descendants were taken as slaves in the north Atlantic slave trade…..isnt that ridiculas…we could even end up shooting our position dead between the eyes, because then we would have to change the definition we let those other entities define so well for us to scrutinise, of what “sub Sahara black Africa” could really mean…forget that
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I mean any referance to some link to sub Sahara black Africa to a body of knowledge, just doesnt add up in our Judeo/Christian, Islamic , Western educated highly intellectualised cultures. Its just coincedence that the people in the sub Sahara Africa were the people taken as slaves by the Judeo/Christian, Islamic cultures…
What the heck, it reminds me of the old film footage I brought in of a tribe of pygmies who were not touched by living in the cities and were actualy living snapshots of what their culture would look like thousands and thousands of years before, who knows , maybe 10,000 years ago or more, after all, they are using the tools of the hunter gatherers who lived that long ago. I was amazed to see one guy had his portable , two tone, percusion setup , he just brought with him where ever they settled down , to play his duple/triple, 6/8 beat, he doesnt call it a 6/8 beat , though, we are differant.Gosh, it blew my mind that I go from hotel to hotel on the road and try to set up my little practice two toned thing to beat out my sambas, mambos, rumbas, funk/hiphop and jazzy splang a langity grooves…but its so differant from the little feller with his duple triple , syncopated call responce 6/8.
Can you imagine, if I actualy thought that this guys concepts were the fonte of all those hip grooves Im practicing, my gawd, Id have to call his concepts genius, by the very fact that Im sitting here practicing fundamentals that he was doing maybe 10,000 year ago.I mean how could those fundimentals actualy be developed that long ago, be surpressed in the most brutal way by slavery, and come out in the Americas to dominate their popular cultures in the most powerful forceful mannor? Preposterous….even more so that anyone could think that there could be blatent ancient traditional similar concepts flowing through all those sub Sahara black African countries I mentioned above…
If you look really really really hard, you can actualy find 6/8 grooves in north Africa…some Berbers, Gnawa…. please, we dont have to pay attention to the fact that any dances associated with cultures of Islam and Christianity, that came into Africa, are going to add a very interesting game to their dances. The game of keeping their mid sections and pelvic areas from moving, which the sub Sahara black Africans seem to have a great body of dancing that does exactly that….but dont pay any attention to that, it only implicates something, well, shall we say, unintellectual..and there is no need to draw any attention to that.
Quiet as kept, something interesting happens to the foundations of the musics when they get out of sub Sahara black Africa….they start “thinking” more about manipulating the structures of their expresions, deviding it up into sections, in places like India, making incredible complex intellectual combinations to improvise over.
I mean, it seems that this simple , duple triple, dance drum, syncopated, call responce concept , that allows the body to free itself into letting go of the thinking brain and getting in touch with intuition , doesnt really stack up to all the intellectual thinking that most of the other cultures started gravitating to. I mean first of all, its frivilous drumming tied into dance concepts, not developled like that anywhere else, freeing the whole body in a call responce, body centering, of aggresive dances and rhythms that were put together to actualy turn off the thinking brain and , making intuition the guiding force… i mean they just dont teach that in universities and music schools, it isnt about intellect so why would we try to recognise it as a tremendous body of knowledge that is nothing short of genius?
I think there are more complicated phrases we can come up with to describe south of the Sahara people….like “ancient, aboriginal,native Africans”…hope no one gets confused by aboriginal, since it is very associated with Aboriginal people of Ausralia…I think the more complicated and confusing and intellectual we can make it, the better…Im thinking something like ” ancient, aboriginal, primitave African, jungle natives”
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If they imply that” sub Sahara Africa is misery, poverty, war, violence,” if we cant say that ” sub Sahara black Africa is a fonte of a body of knowledge, going back thousands of years, that has profound concepts that have affected all mankind and it is genius “, then we better intellectualise it and attack the semantic and call it racist…I totaly understant that
“The game of keeping their mid sections and pelvic areas from moving, which the sub Sahara black Africans seem to have a great body of dancing that does exactly that….” is suposed to imply that sub Sahara black Africa seems to have a great body of dancing that does move the pelvic region and hips with shuffle , call responce steps
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Developing an expresion that turns the thinking brain off and puts you in touch with intuition and your spirit takes some of the highest intellagence and intellect that is possibe in man…isnt that what certain meditations that come our of India do? Isnt that some of their highest lessons the world can get from India,in this tech happy un personal world? How to turn off the thinking brain and get in touch with your spirit inside? The Indians got this down seriously in some of their conceps, the sub Sahara black African got it down in his musical concepts that are unique and like no where else in the world…except where black Africans were sent in the Americas for slavery and those concepts dominated the popular musics of all the place they went. But, those societies just regulate this enormous power to entertainment
Yes, absolutly there is other art in Africa the way that Europe has lots of differant art and expresions and languages from each country, but, there is a link in European Classical music that they all come together using unique concepts in music not invented elsewhere, like writing music on staff paper and every inch is plotted out, and the use of harmony, which if not unique in the world, was developed in Europe like no where else
What we need to get about sub Sahara black African concepts is, mathamatics is the fundimental way human kind is learning to understand how the world works. Quantum physics has put us closer to this understanding than ever before. Perceiving fractals, gives us a deeper understanding of how nature and the universe operate and its design from the microcosim to the macrocosim. We could never understand this without the theories of Einstein, who could never have understood it without the mathamatical breakthroughs of the discoveries before him, that couldnt have done it with out the Arabs developing algebra, who couldnt have done it without the discoveries of the Indians and the “0”. In other words, we never could have gotten to the point we are to day without each forward motion by humankind from the past…
Who ever put two rhythms together in simple duple triple form, to exact a result of a call responce , syncopated groove that goes on and on without super imposed changes in the middle artificialy changing direction , was a mathamatical genius.These were incredible results, that carry over into today in a massivly huge way.Music is mathamatics. These pollyrhythms and then the dances that the people who evolved this , were integrated so that the whole body is immersed in these mathamatical principles, which far more than just being intellectual theory, actualy put the being in touch with their soul and turn off the thinking brain.If you really want to describe “civilisation” , and advances in human kind, thereis no doubt in my mind that the developement and evolution of these concepts is nothing short of the first genius steps by human kind , forward in advanced mathamatical principles. Without those steps, we never would have evolved where we are today. Universiteis, anthropologists, historians etc, they need to open up their ears and eyes to look at dance and music to understand how humankind has developed also.And sub sahara black Africa is the fonte of a huge body of work that is loaded with secrets about how we got to exactly where we are today, and those concepts have come all the way down into today to keep leading us…we just dont even know it..
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“Developing an expresion that turns the thinking brain off and puts you in touch with intuition and your spirit takes some of the highest intellagence and intellect that is possibe in man”
“IN MAN”
And this term “mankind” is not sexist? I’ve even heard women defend the term and thus their subordination and the inevitable abuse.
I found a term – Sapien derived from homo sapien the scientific name for our species.
I use it whenever I can ,but I doubt it will catch on because I/we still need more evolution i.e we’re still too stupid;-/
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I didnt say mathamatics was the highest , I said it is the fundamental way we understand how the universe, or parralel universes works
Its exactly because of this European view , or , all the organised religious views, that you will never ever hear them refer to the mathamatical genius properties that are tied into the sub Sahara black African concepts Im talking about…so you will never hear that included in what defines civilisation or advancements in human kind (Mbeti, sure, i used “man” only out of habit, but used human kind in other referances…I dont call that sexist, just not correct in that phrase, a phrase I changed later). That is the main point about that, what could be considered major advancements in human developement arnt even considered…because no one else really gives it the credit it deserves
These sub Sahara black African concepts are only mathamatics? I feel like I have gone out of my way to describe how these concepts get you in touch with the being, the soul,intuition, immersing the total body . Just as in some Indian concepts, they have the meditations and getting in touch with the third eye in the mind, they also cover areas in the hips and genital areas as chakras that hold much power to get to the higher levals.And then they have physical yoga.So, these African concepts cover various properties also, physical, spiritual, mathamatical. Music is mathamatics, if you put two rhythms in duple triple form, against each other, there is a physical result based on sound waves. The Indians work with extremly complex mathamatical combinations that they improvise over. But, some people from sub Sahara Africa, a really really long time ago, came up with these combinations that no one else uses like them, and, it comes all the way into today like a huge flowing river…that is genius…music shows that math can be expressed with out words or written formulas, or what ever people think regular math is
I never have said one is better than the other…ever..I have always said that one is set up to get certain results and the other is set up for other results (what ever culture you are comparing it to)..The sub Sahara black Africans have developed their own way to feel and express rhythms and dance, like no other culture, and, they cause direct results in the spirit and being, that arnt like the other cultures.
I did say that Europeans invented writing on staff paper, five lines to work with the harmony that they have evolved like no other (which I have certainly expressed I dont think it is superior), and, your point about Europe being part of Asia only proves that you can have a body of land , like Africa, and concepts can develope out of a certain part of it, just like Europe/ Asia, and those concepts not be in another part , like north of the Sahara in the case of Africa…when you break it down, its culture.
Sure buildings, what people eat, the untencils they use , what they painted, what they wrote, all valuable, but, music dance, is a deep living snapshot of the soul of a people that also , like these other things, can give great insights into that people, evolutions of people and past histories…universities dont really treat it lke that at all, including music schools , which will just put a peice of staff paper in front of you and make you transcribe solos and read grooves…things you are suposed to feel
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Well, Bulanik, that is a great video, and a perfect example of how in North Africa, through Berbers,or the Gnawa in Morroco, the concepts that emanated from the center of Africa can be found in the north. Even more interesting for the body movements, which, with the exception of belly dancing, is not the norm where there is Islam. It is not easy to come up with these kind of examples from Algeria, where you can find endless amounts of youtubes about sub Sahara black Africa…just click “traditionsl drumming of (put the country in sub Sahara black Africa of your choice)”
Lets take a look at the source, total body immersion :
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2OnCUBrPbA)
how it starts young
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ploTBr1Mg4s)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1Ay-JlgcXM)
super fast aggresive drumming
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qzknaEcgcA)
advanced mathamatics (the only one ive brought in twice before)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qzknaEcgcA)
the source of these musics emanate from the center of Africa and head north, not the other way around
ill answer your comments below
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Bulanik, a comment is in moderation about the great video you brought in, so, lets see if it gets through….but,Ill just respond to some of your comments .
Drum / dance is very important to sub Sahara black Africa . But, as far as individual taste, what is important to each individual for them about Africa is what matters to them. If someone is into arcitecture more than music, those things are going to apeal to them. If someone is enchanted by Arab melodies, there are plenty of examples in Africa , so they might be attracted to that more than drum dance…but, drum dance is incredibly important in sub Sahara black African life
Again, mathematics is only a part of the total picture of what these concepts mean, and , the ancient Africans arnt thinking in Western terms. The pyramids have incredible mathematical properties built into them like pie.These rhythms have incredible mathematical properties built in. The sub Sahara Africans were developing these concepts long before the pyramids.There is no doubt in my mind that these concepts are some of the first steps of genius humankind took.Drum dance is only the physical manifestation, what goes on in the inner self , the turning off of the thinking brain ,being in touch with intuition,are the incredible rewards for practicing these concepts.
The thing Im trying to convey is, these drum dance concepts are extremly ancient . In the concepts of these beats , are mathematical properties that have definite results. If you dont follow the” laws of music”, you cant execute these grooves. It doesnt mean that a person can do algebra better, it means the mental process to execute these grooves in an ensemble, means you have to do specific things to make the affect happen.
when I immerse myself into these concepts, and go into an alpha state, at that point , I have left Greek, Roman, Western, Eastern concepts behind and am entering the concepts brought to us by the sub Sahara black Africans.
Do you practice any sub Saharan black diasporic African concepts?.
http://www.jazz.com/encyclopedia/potter-andrew-scott
this is who I am, minus the last 8 years and what Ive done.
you can see my work here http://www.youtube.com/91849
I really dont get intimidated by statements from scholars. That doesnt mean I cant learn from them. Im not here to say I know about the region of Africa that each of these scholars is from. Im here to say I have been intimitly involved with Afro diasporic concepts for 5 and a half decades. Where I might not know the depth of the region where that scholar is from, to think I couldnt show her something about jazz/funk/hiphop from the USA, or samba/ maracatu, bloco afro etc from Brazil where I have lived the last 26 years , could be a mistake.
Im a performer. Ive documented my work , and, it will stand up to any music anywhere and not wilt…I stand by my work , deeply immersed in Afro diasporic concepts…and, I am still active and beleive I can go on a stage with my crew and lay it down opisite anyone
Are we going to say Wynton Marsalis cant tell a classical music scholar something about playing classical music trumpet?
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Bulanik, good point about the Maasai, I was going to make that point also, saying they are an example of not having a large drum culture like the Kikuyu have,who are in Kenya, also, and the Maasai are suposed to be a part of the wave of people who came back to Africa.
Bulanik, what I am seeing is that both of us are pointing out truths in Africa. My focus is very narrow, I would never argue otherwise. Its about drum/dance, one of the few things I have any expertise in this world about.And Im not even talking about modern Africa, Afro-pop.Im not talking about or arguing against most of the points you are making.Im focusing on folklorico traditional drum/dance , and the genius involved in it and how it has affected the Americas where ever slaves form Africa were brought.
Drummers do improvise and take solos in these concepts. The most important part is holding their parts in the groove.This is what goes down in jazz , in its ties to its African roots, where the ryhthm section holds down the foundation but the soloist plays on top,like a soloing drummer in the African concept, soloing over the foundation.It doesnt go down like Western classical music where every step is plotted. The solo dancer can solo and start their solo anywhere in the beat (this happens everytime I work with Afro Brazilian dancers. There is no set point of start in the solo, and , everynight is differant yet based on similar combinations) . Yes, of course their are ensemble steps, but, the solo improvisational aspects are there. In Afro diasporic dances, there exists the solo aspect in a competition at who can cut the other dancer. You can see this in tap dancing, samba contests where the dancers try to out do the other or even official contests etc
I totaly agree this drum/dance was integrated into many aspects of the community
I totaly agree it is much more than just pelvic thrusts, that is just one aspect that was eliminated in Christian and Islamic traditions. Its not that I am down on Islam, its only clarifying what gets lost by the paramaters of these religions and culture that conquered the other culture.I have always included Christianity and Judism or any other religion that would not accept the African paramaters.They all have the same affect on these cultures
You are totaly acurate that there are tolerant versions of Islam, and, I never mean to put down the mixtures that you get from Islamic culture and African culture, my only goal is to point out what gets lost in these mixtures. The mixtures are fantastic syles in them selves. Jazz is a mixture, using the harmonies of Europe, but , ironicly, in deep black American jazz, the harmony is the slave to the groove…white jazz musicians often come up with a more European style jazz with emphasis on written charts and arragements that take you away from the more Afro diasporic concepts (of coures, black American jazz musicians read and write and arrange also, but, they have innovated these directions that go back to simplicity of form and more pollyrhythms for deeper expresion and improvisation)
The reason I feel so strongly as I do, is because, I have had to try to execute the concepts of these various cultures . I know the mental process of reading music.I know what it takes to concentrate on executing odd times, like Arabs and Indians are the masters of…I would never say they are less valuable, I only know the process that goes down to execute these styles. And, I have found my greatest affinity for these concepts that came out of the places I have aluded to in Africa and, even more so, the Afro diaspora.
Your valuable insights and information about all these other aspects in Africa are valid, and, my constant bringing in of youtubes pointing out to a culture in Africa that are tied together by similar paramaters in dance drumming that were invented by those cultures, is valid also.
I am coming to the conclusion that we are not as much in conflict as it would apear , but are looking at the same thing from differant angles.
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@churchs
“Haplogroup U6 developed from “R” which in turn developed from “N”. SSA isn’t even an option as a source for U6 because those are Eurasian haplogroups. Whether U6 developed in the near east and migrated to North Africa or proto U6 migrated to North Africa and then developed into U6, it couldn’t have developed in SSA because the haplogroups it evolved from weren’t there”
FYI both Haplogroup R and N currently exist in “SSA” , and there are hypotheses that suggest an African origin for both. So, my question remains, how do you conclude where and when they originated?
“As far as age is concerned, genetic mutations occur at a predictable rate. Age is determined by counting the number of different mutations in the samples.”
That’s a theory. And if it were true, there is no study in which this magic 30,000 number has been scientifically deduced.
“You claimed they were the descendants of recent Arab and European “invaders” and now you ask why I think they look European and Arab?”
No, I did not claim that proto-U6 carriers were descendants of Europeans and Arabians. I said that N. Africa was invaded several times by Europeans and Arabians. Most people in N. Africa today are not U6, BTW. If U6 originated in N. Africa, then how do you know whether or not the u6 carriers looked like Gnawas, for instance?
“Its not my job to find studies to support your claims. If you have a study then link it.”
LOL. It’s also not my job to post links for you. If you doubt anything I say then prove otherwise.
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Oh no! What have you done to me, Bulanik?
Now I can’t stop watching that first African Belly Dance video!!!
Abagond, please mark as “Highly Addictive!”
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And you think the Christion countries in the Americas dont have booty shaking?
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“hidden and private” is exactly the problem
I thank the forces above everyday to be able to live in a country that it isnt “hidden and private”…where I can see woman practicly naked when ever it is warm, like today..im going out and see woman who are provocativly almost naked…and it will give me uplifting feelings and feeling of well being and apreciete women and the varieties of how their bodies look beautiful in all the shapes and sizes , including pregnant
You think the point is that North African people of Islam dont have sex? Dont have desires? This is what the represion is all about. Its an un healthy thing
I think you are the one who needs to do the research, Bulanik.
The truth is , you arnt even an amateur musician. Talking with you about music concepts is not an enlightened one because you say things that indicate you dont get it at all.
How many Afro diasporic dance presentations have you done as a dancer? What is your profesional experiance immersing yourself in Afro diasporic culture?
Tell me something, do you actualy think 15 American families down were I live could really give you any insight to deep American culture?
I had the incrredible rich experiance of growing up in a large black American community , social dancing and playing clubs doing James Brown covers. But, my real education of the depth of Afro diasporic culture really took off when I went to the master musicians and dancers and really going into the depth and compexity of Afro diasporic culture. For sure my social upbringing was extremly valuable to get insights the kid going to music school never will get. My mentors were on the bandstand
You bring up scholars, let me inform you, all these trained musicians coming out of the universities taught by scholars, I have to re train them when I am a leader and want to really get into deep Afro diasporic concepts.
The “bandstand” is the real teacher .You can study history and music school and anthropogy and arcaology all you want, but, if you dont really put into practice immersing yourself in Afro diasporic concepts on a near daily basis, and put it on the bandstand or record, you wont ever really get it.
You think that because you can find a few youtubes of North African belly dancing and women booty shaking in a burqua, that that means that is the dominant culture up there? There are hundreds and hundreds of youtubes of sub Sahara black African videos showing this culture in much more profound and complex expresion as these North African youtubes…Yet you seem to think this is your huge proof that it is on the same leval… I said over and over that the Berbers and Gnawa bring elements from the sub Sahara.
I said, and say over and over, it didnt come down from the North, it came up from under the Sahara
You just cant seem to be able to break down the truth in your brain about the origins of these cultures..because when it is all said and done, it is about culture.And the people who evolved these cultures happen to come from South of the Sahara and happen to be black.
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Well, you dont have a grasp of Afro diasporic culture in the Americas. Brazil and the USA have one foot in western culture and the other in African
How can it not! Dont you get that the popular musics of the Americas have a foundation that is firmly rooted in West African culture drum and dance? In a big way.
Sure the woman does samba on point, but, the Afro roots are firmly on display
I asked if you have presented Afro diasporic dances. Have you immersed yourself in the culture? Not if you are a trained dancer.You can be trained but not profesional. Because if you dont really understand what it takes to present this culture, you start superimposing what you want it to be instead of understanding principles of the cultue and what can be lost.
You brought in a youtube from a performance in Zanzibar.Zanzibar was a great of example of how Islam is the main religion in a place that also has rich sub Sahara black African traditions also.It was also the center of the slave trade, from wikipedia:
“Zanzibar was famous worldwide for its spices and its slaves. It was East Africa’s main slave-trading port, and in the 19th century as many as 50,000 slaves were passing through the slave markets of Zanzibar each year.[5] (David Livingstone estimated that 80,000 Africans died each year before ever reaching the island.) Tippu Tip was the most notorious slaver, under several sultans”
Here is a trailier about a docu of the rich traditions of Zanzibar, Islamic and traditional African, and it sais many of the traditional dances are being lost:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuBJBSFUyWc)
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(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmy4ENd7nic)
Here is an actual Afro arab cultural demonstration, its beautiful
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9NHMsqVBlk)
this is what the Afro Arab culture wont be able to do. The narration is tired, but, the point that sub Sahara black Afro culture has plugged into the fact that our hip and pubic bone area are loaded with pent up sexual energy that is very healthy to release long before science told us so.They understood how to integrate the whole body into their culture. Some India cultures totaly recognise this when they talk of their chakras, and meditate on it and deal with it in yoga, but, the sub Sahara black African culture has used its drum dance expresion to express this.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0jyKjgY5ZI)
you wont see this in Islamic influenced culture in Africa
(http://www.hrw.org/news/2012/09/25/mali-islamist-armed-groups-spread-fear-north)
this article is about recent events in Mali, but, shows both the tolerant Islam that is in Africa and the sharia law style that represses
This is a nutshell of what played out. Cultures crossing for various reasons, mixtures of cultures, but, also, traditional dance and drum forms from sub Sahara black Africa, being watered down on the one hand, mixed on the other hand, and destroyed on another leval.
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I have two large comments in moderation , until they come in , Ill say this:
How long did you stay in Algiers? One year? 2?
Where I picked up incredible insights right away from Brazil, it took me at least 10 year living there and seriously immersed in playing and recording (immensly important because you are under the microscope, you cant just half @ss it with the concepts), with top musicians , dancers, and traveling putting on shows and combining with folklorico groups all over Brazil to really start firming up my concepts about what is happening in Brazil.
You really dont get it if you dont think West African dance drum traditions rule in Brazil or the USA. These traditions in the Americas are even coming back to seriously affect afro pop, with James Brown, Salsa, reggae, jazz (Hugh Masakela)
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Bulanik, you mentioned “hidden, private”.
I have always mentioned the mixtures of North Africa with the sub Sahara black African traditions…you think you are the only one saying that ?Im talking exactly what gets changed.
Ive played with great African musicians including Rocky Dzordinou, who actualy played on Stevie Wonder’s Boogie on Reggae Woman. I roomed with him on a Minnie Ripperton tour, we had a solo moment together, he directed me what to play , so we are immersed in Ghana culture at that moment. He cooked an incredible Ghana dish for us and the band also, Ill never forget that.
Ive had the immense pleasure of sharing the stage once with this master African musician and his band “Mandingo Griot Society” are my freinds
http://www.fmsuso.com/biography.html
I mean these are top notch African musicians
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I have brought in proof that is beyond doubt of the exact points I have made, Im a profesional musician , with an emphasis on Afro diasporic culture, listening to pure African drum music since 1956 up to today , where I still study pure African drum music. Ive worked intimitly with Afro diasporic dancers. Ive worked with top players and dancers on two countries dominated by West African drum dance concepts, for extensive periods of time, going to the centers of culture for these two countries, going to the some of the masters of these cultures,proving on the bandstand and studio that I have absorbed the concepts Im talking about and also worked enough on other cultures to understand what it takes to express them.Ive worked on the stage with some top leval African musicians.
I mean really, what is your experiance that you can bring to the table to disprove what I am talking about?
You know what you are talking about, but, you arnt grasping what I am talking about. I can listen to the youtubes you brought in and dissect exactly what the Arab infuence to the rhtym is and what the African influence is. What is your technical expertice to do this?
and you to , Legion? If you are going to try to make a subtle put down on my position, you better let me know what your expertice on this is…
Because talking with amateurs at my profesion is fun, but, it isnt very deep
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Wow….just popping in to read what exactly is going on here?
I think that last comment by Bulanik provides a fair analysis of what I’ve read so far.
@ B.R
I have to agree with Bulanik about relating your obvious direct experience of African music to the central question in the post. Anything else, if it is not to detract from what I’ve read so far, amounts to just the stroking of self-inflated egos.
Which, I don’t know about other readers, makes me wonder what is the point of that? What exactly are we suppose to learn from these voluminous contributions between the two of you?
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This comment that is:
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Bulanik,
Nice to have you back. We got cut off from our previous conversation.
resw77 and churchs were having a discussion about the “white” origin of the North Africans genes — if it was introduced by the Eurasians or was it always the “caucasian” gene always in Africa –basically how “indigenous” the north Africans are to the land.
I would be interested in hearing your take on that. Here’s just a quick look at the beginning of their conversation (follow the links and you can see the rest)
“churchs@
If geography were solely about land characteristics then Mauritania might not be counted as sub-Saharan. But its not. Geography is about both land and people. North Africa is generally arab / caucasian while Sub Saharan Africa is mostly “black”.
I’ve noticed an inconsistency among blacks when it comes to Africa. Many claim North Africans are non native even though they’ve been there for tens of thousands of years.”
resw77 response:
“resw77@
Many North Africans are indeed non native, as proven by not just genetics but by their own historical accounts. If you knew anything about history, you’d know that many Eurasian people invaded North Africa over a long period of time — No these invaders didn’t vanish into thin air, they settled, populated and drove out most but no not all the indigenous Africans.
Linda says,
My position is that being that North Africans (that many call “Arab/caucasians” ie “white”) are mixed race — they do indeed have a claim of indigenous ancestry to Africa through their indigenous ancestors who mixed with the Eurasian invaders.
and yes, I am trying to break up your usual “dance” with BR…time to get back to business 🙂
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@ Bulanik
On the contrary! Your exchanges with B.R have brought this out quiet well. One video on the music and dance particularly amazed me which I had to re-post. The one with the male Arab men obviously dancing to West African drumming. Never would have believed this! What Arab culture is this?
No…I think you’ve done this quite well. It just seemed it was heading into a an unnecessary personal arena of contesting whose African musical knowledge was superior. There really is no need…
What both yourself and B.R have clearly shown here, illustrated through music and dance culture, is the appropriation of African popular culture shows the falsity of the artificial divide between peoples of North and South Africa.
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@ Linda
“My position is that being that North Africans (that many call “Arab/caucasians” ie “white”) are mixed race — they do indeed have
a claim of indigenous ancestry to Africa through their indigenous ancestors who mixed with the Eurasian invaders. ”
It appears that you are working with a flawed premise (i.e., that North Africans look alike). The fact is that NOT all N. Africans have the same ancestry, and not all are considered “‘Arab/caucasians’ ie ‘white.'” This is a very diverse region.
My only point in this unending exchange with churchs is that he cannot prove that “‘Arab/Caucasians’ ie ‘white'” are indigeous to the region, and that other “black” peoples like the Sanhaja, Masmuda, Siwi, Wangara, Zaghawa, Fur, Nubians, etc. have long histories in North Africa too.
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“resw77
It appears that you are working with a flawed premise (i.e., that North Africans look alike). The fact is that NOT all N. Africans have the same ancestry, and not all are considered “‘Arab/caucasians’ ie ‘white.’” This is a very diverse region”
Linda says,
I am quite aware that north Africans don’t ALL have the same ancestry, I don’t believe I said that either, so I am not sure how you got that idea from my post.
Obviously, I was speaking in general terms because throughout my posts, I made it clear that north Africans have diverse admixtures as well as diverse ethnic groups indigenous to the land…that’s why I brought in Mathilda’s articles.
I was also advicing churchs not to go by phenotype to classify a wholo group of people;
which he and most people in the Western world do because the media rarely shows dark-skinned north Africans, (or on the flipside, light-skinned “sub-Saharan” Africans) hence the the popular belief (stereotype) that the majority population in north Africa are Arab/caucasians’ ie ‘white.’
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@ Linda
“I am not sure how you got that idea from my post”
I got it from your statement: “My position is that being that North Africans (that many call “Arab/caucasians” ie “white”) are mixed race…they do indeed have a claim of indigenous ancestry to Africa.” IMO that’s simply too general a statement to make given the diversity of that country. Some may be purely indigenous, some none at all, etc.
But that is a tangential matter (and please note that I said, “it APPEARS that you are working with a flawed premise…). I’m sure you know there is much diversity in the region, but I want to make it clear for churchs and his kind.
“I was also advising churchs not to go by phenotype to classify a whole group of people….that’s why I brought in Mathilda’s articles”
I agree with you here, but Mathilda makes the same false presumptions as churchs. They think they know the origin of haplogroups (e.g., she calls haplogroup J “Eurasian” even though it is also prevalent in Africa) based on modern locations of people. This ignorantly assumes that things haven’t changed much over time.
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@ Bulanik
“I’m always cautious about genetic surveys, and do not trust them one bit.
For a start, R1b (the common marker among white men), proves relatively little, as the “y” chromosome only accounts for a tiny portion of genetic makeup, and in itself does not make one white…”
And R1b is found in central African communities that would never, by anyone’s standards, be considered “white” or “mixed.”
Your skepticism is probably valid. This stuff is often misunderstood and misinterpreted, and I think its highly arrogant for people to use modern genetic data to draw conclusions about origins, dates, or phenotypes (as Linda pointed out).
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on Mon 28 Jan 2013 at 09:55:29 B. R.
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
ABAGOND, I TOOK THE WORDS THAT MIGHT HAVE GOTTEN FLAGGED OUT SO YOU DONT HAVE TO PUT THAT MODERATED STATEMENT IN
The reason I have to bring out my experiance is because some of the arguments made against my points shows a lack of knowledge of the concepts Im talking about. Where instincualy , since I started playing drums at 8, many things immediatly clicked in. But , its taken 30 years to start to put it together to understand why and what happens. I try to convey that and get put down for it.
Bulanik, Ive said many things you have stated are correct, but,you show lack of knowledge about the things Im talking about. And then you try to acuse me of biased notions, you leave me no choice to let you know why Ive come to these conclusions.Its been forged out of decades of immersion. Profesional experiance. Im asking what is yours?If you are going to question my knowledge and inform all of us of the 15 families you knew in England and a trip to Algiers, I have every right to share my experiances and why I have come to those conclusions.
Commonalities….exactly… Just last night, there was a huge report on one channal of an event in South Africa. You all wont get this on where you live, its just another example that living in Brazil, I see things you all dont. It was about the launching of Bisop Macedo’s book. He is a huge power of the evangelecal church called the Universal Church. The report then went on to show how the Universal Church is a huge movement in South Africa now, with black and white people coming together under this banner. They had a lot of voice singing, movements not unlike some of the Islamic Afro apropriations of sub Sahara black African culture. At the end on stage, a band playing kind of a syncopated beat for the people to sway like I described above, and lots of voice singing, in an African style. In Brazil,where Macedo is from and invented the Universal church, the swaying I described, like the Islamist Afro youtubes shown here, would be frowned on.
So what does this tell me. South Africa has a lot of commonalities. The Boers, the British, the huge Indian community down there. Ahuge amount of commonalities , just like North Africa and those influences that flowed down into below the Sahara.
That is why I include “black” when I talk about the cultures I refer to.To make sure there is no question about the south of AFrica, which cultures Im refferring to
the Universal church celibration is a perfect example of how the original concepts of black Africans , are going to get watered down by “commanalities”.These commonalities are what Bulanik is talking about and does take place all over Africa.
Im saying you have to strip away the commonalities to really see the body of knowledge, the high leval it is on, what it exactly means, how it carries over into today in a powerful force right under our noses, only using one 25th of its power.It is about cultures, developed thousands and thousands of years ago, with huge impact on societies today. That is why admixtures , race, immigrations are less important than the origins of this body of knowledge.
There is so much attention put on the pyrimids, the body of knowledge that came out of there and now, the silly fight about who they are. The body of knowledge Im talking about emanated from below the Sahara by people who happened to have dark skin, curly hair .This knowledge was built without huge stones or a building left behind. It has lasted longer than the pyrimids. The drum dance is one aspect, I speak about it most because that is my feild of expertice , but, it is just the outer circle of an inner knowledge that was given to us by these concepts and cultures.
You have to strip away the commanalities to really observe it and understand its richness and exactely what it means.How those principles were brought over to the Americas in slavery and dominated the cultures over there.
“sub Sahara black Africa”, far from being a racist term in the way I use it, is a concise, understandable, communicative , acurate description of the people who brought us these concepts, that cuts through the commonalities that is Africa today.If people heard Western news reports use this term in a way that depicts misery, poverty violence, if white racists use it as a term to indicate no contributions to civilisation, then if you know the truth Im talking about, it is a bullet between the eyes of their language and the term should be shot back in their face with this information, as exactly as I have done. Not be afraid of a semantic because you dont have the knowledge to defend it
Kwamla, those Arab men look pretty stiff in their movements, some white kids in America doing the twist are about their equal in terms of body awareness of the rhythm, Im surprised you say that after the youtubes Ive brought in showing you the reality.
Obviously, you cant add much to say about the body of knowledge Im talking about. About the concepts. Why is that? What in your life experiances and background has developed your blind spot to the truths Im taliking about? My gosh, they are directly out of Dr Marimba…although she is much more clear than I am.Im just relating it based on the one aspect that is my profesion and feild of expertice.
If you saw the youtube I brought in about what is happening on Zanzibar and how certain drum and dance cultures are being lost,I really dont understand your condenscending dig at my truths.You just reveal that there is much knowledge you have yet to learn. Because that is the crux of my point and how it relates to commonalities
Ego, Bulanik? Speaking truths forged in decades of immersion? I suggest it is your ego that is fighting so hard against the huge amounts of proof Ive brought in that with out a doubt colaborate with the truth Im talking about. What is your blind spot about this? Why are you fighting so hard against so much evidance contrary to your resistance
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Its just interesting, all the time on this blog, even recently, you get people putting down sub Sahara black Africans. Saying they didnt contribute anything. You get race realists pulling out IQ tests that certainly have nothing to do with the body of knowledge and intelleigance that represents what Im talking about.
Yet, if you strip away the commanalities of Africa, and examine the ancient knowledge the people from then brought to the world, the understadning of the value of putting together two rhythms and holding the parts on those rhythms so that it takes on a life of its own, and making it call responce so it loops back on itself ( instead of being manipulated by sections or based on phrase you have think about to get through, or a written score that has to be followed), creating dances that immerse the whole body by using shuffle steps, pelvic thrusts , and head balance at the top and open up the posibility of improvisation on top of the beat that has a life of its own, creating a dance drum ethic that turns off the thinking brain and gets one in touch of intuition, the soul and being…. these silly racist notions and misconceptions melt away and look foolish…
Very interesting the blind spot so many people are demonstrating from having these insights and responces to racist drivel
But, I guess it just boils down to “frivilous drumming” for some of you
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I think one big, huge problem here is the way some people tend to look at Africa. For what ever reason they do not understand that is a CONTINENT. It is not a country, a land, a one place, but a whole huge continent.
Saying that sub Sharan Africa is blablabla and north saharan Africa blablabla, is just like saying that Asia below the Himalayas is like this and north of it like this. Claiming that sub saharan Africa forms one sphere is really ignorant. People of Kamerun won’t think that they are alike with the zulus. No more than the inuits see themselves as cajuns. Or in Europe the saami see themselves as sicilians.
White berbers are white in as they might have blonde hair and white skin BUT they are still africans. They are not “mediterannean” or “white” as in Europe or USA. No, they are africans with whote skin. Period. And that should make everyone take a pause. That shoud make it clear to everyone how diverse and huge Africa really is.
This whole genetics discussion is also funny. The genetic diversion between the sub saharan africans is way bigger than the rest of the world. A guy from west coast of Mali is much further from a guy in Kenya, than a black guy in Los Angeles is from the whitest of the poles living in Poland. A japanese is gentically closer to that black guy than the one from Mali is to the guy from Kenya. Somehow people seem to forget this too.
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Frankly , Sam, you cant put that on where Im coming from at all.I have carefully , over many threads, brought in youtubes of sub Sahara black African cultures that come from most all the sub Saharan black African countries. I live in Brazil and I hate to lump it in with South America, it is so differant from any country around it so , I totaly understand that dynamic
Your notion that it is a bunch of countries is also strange , since many countries have changed names and boundries in the last couple of decades, as well as many are colonial boundries , so where I am coming from doesnt even relate to countries…its concepts and cultures , that comes from a long long time ago. And I have carefully said that it doesnt represent all the cultures below the Sahara.
Quite a few of these sub Sahara countries have national dance companines showing exactly these traditions that I am talking about, its like they know all about it
there is nothing lazy about the immersion I have put in learning about these cultures in the last 5 and a half decades.
You know, I dont come in here talking about this for some ego trip. If I want an ego trip, Ill go on stage and get aplause , or read my press clippings and record reviews…..much much more satisfying.
And , its not because Im a musician, Ive been battling for these concepts with musicians constantly in my life to get them to plug into how to turn the thinking brain off and let the intuition rule and feel it.
Where Im coming from is not some intellectual discusion, some university learned subject or something you can read in books or get from some visits to Africa…its visceral reality and against the grain truth right there , coming from a long long time ago for those who want to go the exta mile and really find out about it
Ive been trying to imply, however, that exactly because Africa is so big, I beleive everyone’s point of view has some validity to it.
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Is somebody writing a book ?,caused this the most long winded ,multiple worded discussion I’ve seen in a while – and by the same few people….um go figure.
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Mbeti, you dont know the half of it…this discusion has been going on over multiple threads for about a year and a half now…
I wish this could be my last statement on this, but I cant guarentee it.
“sub Sahara black Africa” is not on some high leval scrutinisation by national or international whistle blowers of what are offensive words.I use it to alude to an incredible positive force and I can use it to defend against racists who use it as a put down or just plain ignorant people who use it like it refers to poverty, violence or disease
Right now, it is just opinions.People can site this scholar or another person’s opinion to agree, but, its still just an opinion at this point.
“miscegenation” always strikes me as a funny word with its “mis…”like its a mis take or something…its almost offensive to me, I mean what am I , a “misgegenator”? or is it a verb “i miscegenated on the floor yesterday” .Or a noun “miscegenation is my business” , adjective “that is a miscegenating moment…” Shakespearian …”to miscegenate or not to miscegenate”
but, I would never interupt someone and say it offends me, or say it is wrong
I can respect everyone’s opinion, but, at this point where it is an opinion, using the term , SSBA, is something that can help me prove some powerful points , about ancient cultures and the people who evolved them, and where it came from. Points that you dont hear a lot in diologue about Africa , points that get lost in the shuffle and barley aluded to . i see lots of good points on here, we all have a right to our opinions.
I hope I can refrain myself from commenting on this subject for now….but, I wont guarentee it …..
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Discussions go on because the root issues are unresolved in the minds of those discussing. A lot of interesting truth comes out of passionate arguments.
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@Abagond
Yes, it’s a racist term. White Arabs are not native Africans…Bottomline!
GoTeam
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@BR:
I was not directing my comment on you but making an general comment.
As for someone living in Brazil, good for you. But that does not make you an expert even about Brazil, no more than living in USA made me an expert supremo about USA. I can only say my opinions and thoughts based on my own experiences. Same goes with Africa.
“Your notion that it is a bunch of countries is also strange , since many countries have changed names and boundries in the last couple of decades, as well as many are colonial boundries , so where I am coming from doesnt even relate to countries…its concepts and cultures , that comes from a long long time ago. And I have carefully said that it doesnt represent all the cultures below the Sahara.”
I very much doubt your insight on african culture goes more than few decades back. Perhaps you know some old traditions but I very much doubt that you lived in Africa way before colonial times. That would make you roughly 150 years old and I just can not quite believe that. I have no doubt that you know some traditions and traditional music, but time before countries… C’mon!
As for countries, well, they do exist there. Yes, many borders were drawn by the colonial powers, many native nations and people were divided artifically etc. That is true. Some border conflicts have their roots in those times. The tuareg problem stems from the fact that those colonial powers did not even understand that Sahara was not an empty place but the homeland of the tuareg. BUT those countries are there. They have parliaments, presidents, governments, police, armies, currencies, flags, border patrols etc.
I bet that if we would ask a malawian guy is he a malawi or is he just the same as a guy from Kamerun, he would answer a malawian, no matter what tribe he comes from. That is the reality today. “Sub-Saharan” Africa is not a place where semisavage natives hop around in lion skins and dance to the beat of drums all night long. It is as modern continent as any. They have universities, top class hospitals, McDonalds and milkshakes, they even fly airplanes these days and they have their own countries too!!!! There are even tv-shows!!!!
I understand that as a musician you must have a romantic notion about the music, an artist must have a spiritual aspect in his work, but lets not be childish about Africa. Lets not pretend it is somehow locked up in some time machine and is just like 50, 100 or 1000 years ago. It is not. The africans I have met have no illusions, good or bad, about their lands or continent, but even though they can party all night long, they are no livin in some mystical mythical Drum-Drum-Land of misty jungles and mighty mountains, pristine savannas and glitterin pure deserts. They drive japanese cars, are late from work, curse the time tables, read tabloids, and talk about their own celebrities and their football teams. Just like any normal humanbeing today anywhere around the world.
But do we see that on our tv-news? Are we told about this in our newspapers and magazines? No. All we see is dusty guerillas in dusty cars brandishing rusty assault rifles, hungry and poor, and then that magnificent nature of the continent. Nobody shows us how wife cleans the house and nags at his husband who has been again working too late, nor we see a young career woman on a fast track professionally because her drive and motivation in the business world.
And that is why we can imagine thousands of miles away that somehow we have this mystical knowledge about Africa just because we like the music.
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Sam, I apreciete you said the other comment wasnt direceted at me, and, Id like to answer your comment. First, I respect immensly that you did travel to Africa, and, your experiances have always been great to hear…and , you and Bulanik both have great angles on Africa, and are well read, even if you dont have profesional music experiance.
26 years living in Brazil does amount to some kind of time to put together conclusions that have some validity, and, absolutly, I am always learning and have more to learn. As far as my profesion there, going on stage with some of the best, going into the interior to research the music, hearing varieties of high leval folklorical expresions, recording and videos with innovators and icons and working with incredible dancers in the various expresions there, certainly give me insights that have great value than if I just passed through or spent a year or two.
My brother went to Kenya, he messes around with congas, and he came back and played better than I ever remember, and had tremendous experiances, but, he cant come close to the insights I have gained with my 5 and 1/2 decades immeresed in these cultures.
Sam, many of these countries have national folklorico ballets of their traditions from centuries ago. When you see youtubes of black and white film of pygmies in the forest in a hunter gatherer mode and one of them pulls out a portable two toned percusion instrument…this is a living snapshot of customs thousands of years old. Dealing with music in the USA and Brazil, there are skills of research we musicians need to understand what are the links to the past , espeicialy of musics not written down or recorded. Afro diasporic music is oraly passed down, in Recife they have coco’s and maracatus, maracatus being 300 years old and coco is also a very old slave expresion of rhythm and melody and dance.They are living snapshots that give you great ideas of how they sound. I can understand that you may think music isnt as thorough as other sciences, like anthropology or history, but, beleive me, on the inside, its serious business for some of us musicians to find out the origins and histories of our instruments, and, dead seriously, anthropolgists and archeologists and historians ought to hook up with musicians that have done the serious research , which doesnt mean university scholars.There is nothing romantic about it
Im perplexed with all the youtubes Ive brought in that are living snapshots of sub Sahara black African culture and how deeply Ive gone into detail about the depth and genius of these cultures that you would think at all that I think its drum and dance all the time all night. Americans know very little about jazz. It just isnt in them. Yet jazz is one of Americas highest expresions .It is our culture, but, very few people can really talk about what it really means including a bunch of university jazz students and scholars.It is extremly low on record sales, and even less play the real deep deal jazz that is the cutting edge innovation.Brazil has incredible instrumental music and it is lower in esteem than jazz in America.
You see Sam, what I beleive what is happening between you , me and Bulanik, is we all have our own angles of seeing what is going on in Africa.I cant deny the real life traveling insights that you got, or Bulanik and her awareness of nuances in Islam and commanalities. But, it would be a mistake to dismiss my angle. I have great expertice on what Im talking about.
This is the conclusion I am coming to about this discusion. Im talking about a body of knowledge that came out of the center of Africa thousands of years ago.If an Egyption 4000 years ago was amazed at seeing a pygmie sing and dance, that is great evidence that these cultures in the center of Africa were developing this long before that. I have said that this body of knowledge is a great sign of advances in human genius and humankind at moving forward, and in my eyes, an advance in humankinds civilisation, that is not built out of stone and morter and isnt written down. If you talk about the Roman Empire, it isnt about an Italian today, and, it covered more territory than Italy today. Same with Greece, and we call these civilisations and look at thier body of written works and buildings and get their messages a long time ago down into today. Society looks at Egypt too, but they dont look at sub Sahara black Africans and their real contributions and genius that has come all the way down from thousands of years ago, the first humans on the planet into today affecting our cultures. Its all around us , right in front of our noses…its here, but we dont ackowledge it.
Now this body of knowledge wasnt a physical empire like the Roman empire..it was various peoples who came out of that area at that time long ago. We know ancient Africans had sophisticated gold mines, we know ancient Africans had jewelry and sewed and that is what seperates ancient humans from neandrathals. But , in all our history classes and universities and sholars, no one thinks to link the ancient customs, preserved in living snapshots of folklorico traditions, of the unbeleivable pollyrhythmic, call responce, syncopted , dupletriple drumming and dancing, made especialy for the drumming, to these developements in humankind advancement. Yet, each 5 years there is a new scientific discovery that our intuition is really controling our beings, that turning off the thiking brain allows us to truly feel our soul…that our young kids dancing in discos is healthy because it lets off pent up sexual energy…get that, this isnt culture that is for sex, its letting us get in touch with our sexual and sensual energy and control it, the opisite of the stereotypes.And the people who sent us their culture from a long time ago, had plugged in to all of this and, after getting repressed by all our organised religions for so long, we just now are getting in touch with things they already knew
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So, that is it, Sam, your observation about present day AFrica is right, and Bulanik it right about commanalities, but, I know I am spot on about a sub Sahara black African body of work , that holds great knowledge and lessons for us , as much as Egypt, the Roman Empire, The Greeks, the Indians and they sure have a lot to offer, the native Americans, the Arab contributions, the European renaisonce etc
Africa is so big, that you can have the things you are interested in and not study the folklorico concepts at all that I would go insane to study. Bulanik knows about the Islamic nuances and all that means in Africa , but her speciality is not sub Sahara black African traditional ancient drum and dance
So, I think we need to respect each others expertice
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…by the way, when I say ancient humans, I mean the homo sapians that we are today…there were various human species..the say that an ancient homo sapian could be taken as a baby and raised in society today and no one would know the differance
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@B. R.
you seem to be the one using (in my opinion) excessive verbiage ie too many words – most commenters are far briefer in expressing themselves on even more interesting or important (not that this topic is not) posts.
I counted using MS word – 1048 – words in just one of your comments!
Most of your comments I just pass up ,too many damn words with little substance.
I noticed thIS phenomena at another specifically anti-racist blog I was a member of years ago – the “white/albinic” commenters always had the most and longest comments and always seem eager for a long mostly pointless discussion with anyone who commented but especially with any black/african or oher P.O.C
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@ Bulanik
– If Arabs are from Arabia (which was multi-racial place), what about Berbers?
They’ve been in North Africa for tens of thousands of years and 80% or so , have a lot of East African DNA.
– The Ancient Egyptians record extensive contact in their Western desert with people that seem to have been Berbers or proto-Berbers.
What does that tell us?
– And what about the Eastern part of North Africa — home to the Egyptians and Nubians? That’s right next to Arabia.
Do this mean the ANCIENT Egyptians and Nubians were also invaders?
I don’t understand what point you are trying to make here. BTW – you do realise that Berber is a linguistic/language group and not a race or ethnicity right? Berbers are multi-ethnic. Berber is a language and culture that originated 5,000 years ago, most likely in the Nile Valley Red Sea areas of North East Africa. It is not a “race” and it is not a phenotype. “Berbers” are not 10,000 years old.
How a Berber looks depends on what country and what region he or she is from. Most Berber living in right in the deserts of the Sahara are obviously black such as the Tuareg and Siwa. Others living along the coasts are lighter in complexion and show a very so-called “mulatto” look. Still others mostly in the Northwestern coastal areas have Mediterranean (in a European sense) and in rare instances a ‘Nordic’ look such as the Riff and Kabyle.
Obviously, the Berber peoples have experienced much admixture with Europe to the North and light-skinned Arabic speakers from the East but of course only black people were aboriginal to the North African land.
And white skin is a fairly recent 10,000 -15,000 year old, trait among human populations. Therefore, it is impossible that there were large white populations anywhere on earth 50,000 years ago.
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Mbeti, when Abagond sais Im talking too much, Ill take notice, I could care less what you think…feel free not to read my posts
Bulanik, exactly what I am saying is contributing exactly why I think using “sub Sahara black Africa” is not racist
Your ignorance on the concepts Im talking about speaks volumes, to you its frivilous drumming..just music, I have heard that a lot
Then again, it was you who was defending Che when I brought in ´proof he was racist against Africans and called them smelly and only concerned about frivilous sex, and I pointed out a group of black scholars that had made a statement that Fidel Castro and his regime was racist against blacks
Isnt that interesting that you also tried to tie Qutb of the Shadow of the Koran and his followers, in with anti white racism , when I brought in his blatently racist remarks about black Americans and jazz and , bingo, frivilous preocupation with sex….
I dont trust your judgement , Bulanik, either your antenna isnt really adjusted to perceive real racism or you have an agenda
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http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/igbo/westafricanorigin.htm
This is my clincher, here is an incredible article on the origins of language…Igbo….and they use “sub Sahara Africa” a lot, just as I have. They show how many words from the Egyption ancient language originated from Igbo. This is what I am saying so much , how civilisation and cultural advances, came from sub Sahara black Africa first….
Even if there are some people questioning how profoundly Igbo affects so many languages in the world, in other article Ive seen, just how it affects Eyption ancient language is mind blowing…all power to the Igbo…
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OK , read that , and intellectualy try to grasp it and then, look at Igbo culture:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmOKYR-C4dg)
This is the culture that goes with the language that is the origin of many languages…These are the points Im making….this is the reality
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Oh really? Nobody on here has ever gone this deep in expaining it:
”
The son of Osiris was called Horus. This is a Greek version of a native Egyptian word Heru, which means ‘Face’, as in ‘Face of the Sun’. Its Igbo original is Iru – ‘Face’. Horus was known as the Lord of the Horizon. The Horizon being known to the Egyptians as the land of the Rising Sun, a place located in the Southwestern direction from Egypt – the original mythological home of the gods of Egypt. Our analyses shows that this land of the Rising sun was known in several other world mythologies as the Center/Navel of the Earth. The actual cartographical center of the earth, as indicated in all old maps of the world is ‘Median Biafra’, for median means ‘Center’. Biafra is the ancient name for the place now known as Igbo land. It’s location on world maps shows that Igbo land was the true ‘navel of the earth’. Igbo land was thus, that Land of the Rising Sun/that Horizon Land to which Egyptian mythologies and pyramid records refer as the Heaven of the Egyptians. The international word ‘Horizon’ is thus derived from the name ‘Horus’, which in itself is derived from Igbo word Iru – ‘Face of the Sun’. To demonstrate their genetic claim to being the true god-men who lived in this land of the gods, Igbo initiates marked themselves with the symbol of the sun – ichi, a word derived from another name of the Sun/daylight, chi, which is also the name of the spirit of God in Man and from which originated the Greek word Christ[14].
Egypt’s most ancient god is called Amun/Amen/Ammun. He is a god residing under the earth and his name implies ‘Hidden inside the bowels of Earth’. According to Martin Bernal[15] the word Amen is derived from imn which is pronounced Amana. These two words have Igbo origins. Igbo equivalent of imn (Egyptian words are usually not written with vowels) is ime ana, and means ‘inside the earth’, while amana is equally an Igbo word referring to the Earth religion, further supporting an originally Igbo-based Egyptian religion and civilization”
And absolutly no one has tried to link the ancient people to the cultures I have been talking about
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zTN7EMMO94)
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You do know that the people writing this papaer are UNN Nsukka
The University of Nigeria , Nsukka !!!
This is getting really tired. The University of Nigeria is using extremly liberaly the term sub Sahara Africa…and you , Bulanik, you too Abagond (yeah , I get it, after this subject has been hashed over a lot before , you bring in this thread “dance puppets, dance”) are trying to call it a racist term.
Ive brought in overwelming information supporting my reasons for using “sub Sahara black Africa”, how it can be a term to indicate a body of great knowledge and genius and culture that deeply affects us all the way down into today in a really big way.And lo and behold, The University of Nigeria has a tremendous paper that overwelmingly sais the same thing , except examining language, and uses the term sub Sahara Africa in the most positive of ways.
You all are letting white racists and media define the term for you.
This paper was really recent.
You know, Im basicly debating with Bulanik, Sam and Abagond and the others who think its racist…but Im bringing in this huge rich , profound and deep information to people like King, Brothawolf and Matari…..I would like to know your opinions on this
This blog has been chock full of white racists coming in saying black Africans and their descendants havent contributied anything..there are testimonies galore about black Americans feeling inner feelings of lack of self esteem and to be made to feel in society that they are somehow less worthy etc
This information Im bringing in, and by the way, these arnt my concepts, I am just the messanger, is just and incredible exclamation point of how absolutly profound the body of knowledge that sub Sahara black Africans and their descendants have brought to this world
No , absolutly not, I dont think “sub Sahara Africa” is racist. Its only racist if you dont know how to answer the racists who have made the term sound that way
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Did they mention India?
“Manu (‘First Man’) Igbo – mmanu (human);
Kash (Kwash) – First People, god-men (Igbo: Akwanshi – ‘First People/god-men’); Kush, the name of the Biblical son of Khem/Ham was the clan name of all Indians (Hindu Kush), but also of all Nubians. Egypt was named Khemet after its founding father, Khem\Ham the post-Deluge settler of the African continent, whose name means ‘Black’.
Sindh (the largest and longest river in India and main source of life, agriculture, trade and sheer survival, from which originated the words India, Hindu) appears to have derived its name from the Igbo word Isi ndu ‘Source of Life’ (pronounced Isi ndhu in Orlu/Okigwe dialects).
An ancient pyramid complex in Kashi, the holiest city of India, had the name Bindhu Madhu, which translates into Igbo as Obi Ndhu Mmadu (Orlu dialect) ‘Mankind’s Sacred Dwelling Place of Immortality’. Kashi was India’s ‘City of Light’, the Igbo equivalent of this word is Oku Eshi – ‘Place of gods of Light’).
Sanskrit Kr means ‘to create/to make’, it is derived from Igbo kere (‘created’);
Sanskrit Dev (‘god/divine’) is derived from Igbo Ide Afa/Ava (‘Demi god of Afa’), pronounced Ava in some core Anambra dialects);
Sanskrit Om/Aum is said to be the first word intoned by god to bring about created life. Its Biblical equivalent is ‘I Am’. Its Igbo equivalent is Oom (‘I am/I am it/It is I’); Igbo Aum/Awu m equally means ‘I am’. Both are derived from Orlu/Okigwe dialect of the autochthons, indicating that Sanskrit, the so called Oldest language of humanity is equally owes some of its vocabulary to Igbo.
Indra is the name of the solar deity of India. His name appears to have derived from Afa word Ndu Ora (‘Life of the Sun’) or perhaps it is a collective name for solar deities – Ndi Ora – ‘People of the Sun’.
The India ancient city of Kashmiri is waterlogged most of the year. Its name appears to have Igbo connotations for miri means ‘water’ in Igbo and would tend to suggest a name such as ‘Kushite Water People’.
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Did they mention Eglish:
“English words
Eve (Ava – ‘Living Soul/God as Mother, Creative Force’)
Nature (Nne Atu Ora – Mother of the Living Word of the Sun God)
Adam (Adaa m – ‘I have fallen’)
Order (Ora dere – cosmically established/god ordained)
Life (Ele ife – ‘Light of Ele’)
Love (Ele ovu/ofu – ‘Divine unity/oneness’)
Oracle (Ora okala – ‘Divination’)
Caesar (Ichie Eze Ora – ‘Most High Sun King’)
Faith (Ifu etu –‘to focus on divine order’)
Chief (ichie efu – ‘Non-initiate community head’)
King (ikenga – ‘anchor of manly force/power’)
Queen (akwu nne – ‘nest of mother essence’)
Equal/equilibrium (akwu ele – ‘divine balance’)
Mind (Omi ndu- ‘Depth of spirit’)
Human (oha mmuo ana – ‘community of earth-dwelling spirits’)
Meet (etymologically derived from Old English moot – ‘gathering of elders’ – Igbo ime otu–‘gathering of elders’)
Choir (Igbo Ukwe Ora ‘Group of singers’)
Cock (Igbo Okuko ‘cock’)
Animal (Igbo anumanu ‘animal’)
Say (Igbo saa ‘to say’)
Marine (Igbo miri ‘water’), etc, etc.
“
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Well, I keep telling you, im not inventing these concepts, Im only the messenger.That these commentators cant seem to put it together what the whole picture is , only shows they didnt go far enough to also include India, English words, Greek words…soon two comments in moderation hopefully will be released and show some of these words
And they were extremly neglectful about the cultures I have brought in which show with out a doubt that these concepts extended in a powerful way from East to West and South with traces that arrived North.Im not just talking about language , buildings, utencils jewlery, the stuff you get all over in the Universities. This paper from Nigeria only re inforces the blatent truth I have been reffering to about how the concepts of drum dancing from sub Sahara black Africa have come out from the past to seriously affect us TODAY
If you think this is some kind of patronising information, that is your hangup, Im just passing information for all to see and make their own conclusions in the face of the lack of ability of the people commenting on here to make those connections
Seriously, if the University of Nigeria freely uses the term “sub Sahara Africa”, that speaks much louder than the criticism on here against it. Ill go with them and what they are saying…not you, wth all due respect
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Abagond, this comment is for you, I have been debating these issues a lot with Sam and Bulanik, over various threads, and you brought this thread in and then delcared that you do think “sub Sahara Africa ” is racist…Its a fact before any of these debates started on other threads , that I am the person who was constantly using the term “sub Sahara Africa” , always talking in a most positive referance to sub Sahara Africa…and it is my strong beleif that these words are harmless in themselves it is the intent of the user that has to be scrutinised. And there have been many assumtions on here that Africans dont identify with that term , therefor it is racist…
I brought in an extremly insightful paper written by a Nigerian, using the term “sub Sahra Africa” and it was a posiive paper putting sub Sahara Africa as a referance to make their point, exactly as I have always done…
Where I know I cant just change everyone’s mind to think like me and I have no intention of doing so, what I have done and want to finish off with now, is prove with vivid youtubes (in the past) and facts, that there is a context to use Sub Sahara black Africa in an extremly positive light. So that I can make it as clear as posable that the context I use sub Sahara black Africa is in the most positive of light.
Im going to bring in four differant posts , because if they are on one post, they get stuck in moderation…Each one is a paper by black Africans (one is co written), all using “sub Sahara Africa”. Where the context of these papers is not the argument, its the liberal use of “sub Sahara Africa” in a positive light that is the point, and done by black sub Sahara Africans.Here is the first :
from Kenya http://firstmonday.org/htbin/cgiwrap/bin/ojs/index.php/fm/rt/printerFriendly/1966/1842
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from Nigeria:
http://books.google.com.br/books/about/Language_Attitudes_in_Sub_Saharan_Africa.html?id=Ghqf-m6ILIgC&redir_esc=y
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from Ghana :
http://www.africanbookscollective.com/books/women-and-law-in-sub-saharan-africa
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a Nigerian professor :
http://web.mit.edu/africantech/www/articles/EnvChall.htm
Where I dont think this is going to change minds, it is more than enough evidance for me to continue using “sub Sahara black Africa” , and know it has no racist context in the mannor I am using…
I fully support scrutinising racist whites and media reporters who would use the term in a racist context and know the people who would condemn them are spot on…but these words can be used in a very positive and uplifting context…
It is amunition to use against racists, people can chose to use it or not, but, at least it is more amunition on the fire to see through the kinds of racism that does exist so much
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@ Bulanik
It seems you are here to tame the lion. Lol. 🙂
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Ha , you just dont get it, Bulanik…my point never was about linguistics , it is just some interesting information, and, the report I brought in , was more in depth than any one else has brought in about it…and , the most important point I LINKED IT WITH THE CULTURES I HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT, THAT IS WHAT THE PEOPLE LOOK LIKE AND HOW THEY EXPRESS THEMSELVES
People here will talk about the languages that went to Egypt, but it is a very nebulous impresion of who those people are
And , its not that scholars cant say things that I dont agree with, I frequently do not agree, especialy about music …(by the way, I had to see thourgh what that scholar said, the other one didnt say anything and looked experianced, but , the first one really means “only Africans can preserve African culture “, and I agree totaly about that)
The point is, you , Abagond , and others have tried to railroad sub Sahara Africa, as racist…you and Sam have tried so hard to imply that Africans dont think that way…and have tried to belittle the blatent truths I have brought in…
And, I just brought in 5 examples from countries of sub Sahara Africa , examples from black Africans, writing in depth positive and informative papers, BLATENTLY USING THE TERM SUB SAHARA AFRICA!!!!
its not even that I have to agree with what the sholars were writing about, its the very fact they use sub Sahara Africa in a positive light…the same way I have used it in trying to discuss a body of knowledge that is extremly quantifyable, yet, very diverse in individuality of how each group expressed those concepts
and guess what, Bulanik, everything I have said and proved, doesnt negate many things you and Sam have said, you both have the barriors from understanding my insights from my experiances. That is your hangup
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Its words , Bulanik, its the intent of the user…
I dont see this issue on the international analysis of damaging racist remarks …
just because you have had news reports at a certain time in your life that you had an emotional reaction to, doesnt mean then that these words havent had great meaning in other peoples expresion of it who are more immersed in its principles to be able to define clearly what that body of knowledge and force is, and it is a term that helps to shine a light on that area…an area by the way that is sevely neglected in getting the credit it is due to its real contributions to the world. Its something you are much less aware of than the nuances of Islam in Africa
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This summer I intend to take a vacation in sub-Alpines Europe, where the sun shines nice and bright and the people have great natural tans.
Can anyone guess which country I am going to based on that description?
I mean when I say sub-Alpines, there are only a few countries in that part of Europe and the people all have similar phenotypes, so it should be easy to guess.
My husband wanted to go to sub-Balkan Europe but we decided not to because they’re getting too expensive (and my husband thinks they cheat on prices) — can anyone guess which country or group of people I am talking about?
Because by saying sub-Balkan obviously I mean southeast Europe and the people there are so similar and share such close cultures that the word sub-Balkan should tell you everything you need to know.
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#Ernesto “Che” Guevara
“We’re going to do for blacks exactly what blacks did for the revolution. By which I mean: nothing.” -Che Guevera
“The Negro is indolent and lazy, and spends his money on frivolities, whereas the European is forward-looking, organized and intelligent.”- Che Guevara
“The American is primitive in his artistic taste, both in what he enjoys as art and in his own artistic works. “Jazz” music is his music of choice. This is that music that the Negroes invented to satisfy their primitive inclinations, as well as their desire to be noisy on the one hand and to excite bestial tendencies on the other”
Sayyid Qutb
I dont trust your judgement, Bulanik…these are people you either defended or brought in as some kind of tie in to fight racism
Ive brought in facts and all you can do is attack my charactor.
Arguing against a black position on this? When Im brining in factual papers from black African’s from sub Sahara Africa using this phrase in the most positive of lights.Sam is trying to tell me that Africans dont think this way….he is black? This is no monlithical black position about the phrase sub Sahara black Africa…
Im talking about a body of knowledge that comes from sub Sahara black Africa, that is a gift to the world and relevant more than ever into today, and you cant even agree and actualy try to just undermine that, and you try to portray me as a racist?
I seek aplause on the bandstand , not on a blog, am I repeating myself about moan chumpski and the farc?
There is nothing racist about using the term “sub Sahara back Africa” , only in the intent of the users
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Linda, what is at stake here is, cultures who have really not been recognised for the contributions to humanity that they richly deserve to be noted for…I hammer over and over about it because so very few people anywhere , in discusions about what people have brought to the table to humanity , make any referance to this at all…
And, these black Africans have used the term to make sure there is not doubt what they are reffering to, in their papers about various subjects, all positive and relevant.
The Nigerian woman who linked all the words from Igbo, did a tremendously complicated work to show that with so much attention on Egypt, people need to look and analyse much more, the contributions that come from black Africans below the Sahara.
She went a lot farther than just Egypt, and , i never knew about the English tie ins
Something incredible came out of there, but not just the Igbo, there are the Dogan from Mali,empires from Ghana , Senegal , Kenya, Uganda, the San,etc etc . It emanated from the center and spread..and , I have brought in youtube after youtube to prove a continuity in cultural expresion, explained over and over exactly why it is unique to the world and how large the affect is…Even if I have to repeat myself from the same arguments coming at me, I have used differant youtubes everytime except once….everytime…differant examples from all over sub Sahara Africa, and , referances to the Berbers and Gnawa in North Africa
I dont feel your analagy is equal to trying to define this , and, exactly because its obvious other black Africans use this term to explain what they are getting at, I feel its strange to try and make these words in themselves some racist connotation…if people heard it in a context that smacks of racism, the intent of the users needs to be scrutinised…I havent heard it used by news casters in the longest time…you do hear it and on this blog by white racists to try to prove that black Africans didnt contribute anything to the world…and I think its a bullet in between their eyes to be able to come back and use the words to describe great genius contributions to the world by sub Sahara black Africans
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“BR,
Linda, what is at stake here is, cultures who have really not been recognised for the contributions to humanity that they richly deserve to be noted for…I hammer over and over about it because so very few people anywhere, in discussions about what people have brought to the table to humanity , make any referance to this at all”
Linda says,
BR, I totally agree with you that Africans don’t get the Honour and Acknowledgment that they deserve for their contributions. If there really was a level-playing field in this world then whites/Europeans and other scholars, who write these history books that teach our children, would give ALL African cultures their due, not just the Egyptians.
In your 4th paragraph, you specified Ethnic groups and throughout your posts, you’ve described what different Ethnic groups contributed…I wish more people in the western world would take the time to actually Learn the names of different African ethnic groups and their culture instead of viewing Africans as one, big monolithic group of people.
That being said, I think it’s disrespectful for western scholars to lump Africans into a 2 part category of : “Sub” or “North”…that’s the choice: either they’re Sub- or they are North- …yep, that sure told me everything I needed to know!
To be equal, we should start calling Greeks, Italiens, and other dark-skinned people of the south “sub-Europeans” – these people also had great historical empires and if I say “sub” this should tell me everything I need to know, right…
Europeans do not lump together their individual countries or ethnic groups achievements, or speak about each other as though they are one big, happy monolithic group: They identify by their Individual Ethnic groups/Nationalities.
I often here scholars/media speak about Europe by regions: Balkans, Scandinavia, Pyrenees, Mediterranean, eastern Europe, etc?
Where’s the equivalency for Africa? The continent is large enough for them to learn enough landmarks to describe the different continental regions—they managed to learn the word “Sahara”
The average, normal day Africans I know would tell me what region they are from or what Nationality/Ethnic group, such as: I am “East African”, “I am from West Africa”, I am from Zimbabwe—that’s in south of Africa…descriptions like those that give an idea of where their country is located and possibly Who they are ethnicity-wise?
And it doesn’t matter if African scholars use the term “sub Saharan Africa” — their primary audience are other scholars (or media) who use this western created word –this still doesn’t give validity to the term.
I’ve never heard the everyday person describe themselves as “sub-Saharan” Africans—and just because the African scholars do it doesn’t mean anything or take away the disrespect it offers:
I’ve heard young Black American teens/men and hip-hop artists call each other “nig’er” – does that make the use of the word OK because they do it? (rhetorical question)
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@Bulanik
“Do you think this is a result of neo-colonial notions many of don’t even see
…do you believe that image has come about and is sustained because it coincides with the West’s own racial and religious divides?”
No, I think it’s just historical. But I think most people tend to forget or are ignorant about the Turkish/Ottoman history in N. Africa that spans 300 years (I’ve met Algerians who were utterly clueless about this historical fact). This was a big genetic/cultural influence on the region.
“Have either of you seen the “Bakkar” cartoons?”
No, but thanks for sharing! That’s both interesting and saddening.
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†THE APPEAL TO MELANIN – A Wite-Magik Attak that tweaks the Appeal to Authority until it glows bronze. This is an attack wherein a non-brown person attempts to negate the argument/complaint/insight of a brown person by claiming the non-brown opinion is
a) Backed up by a black or brown or chinese or filipino or puerto rican etc friend who feels the same way, or that
b) Their word is free of any racist taint simply because they have, for example, paid for the lunch of a mexican ten times, or maybe put a black person through school, or are even sleeping with or married to a brown person. But as any person familiar with these dynamics knows, a White Supremacist viewpoint can exist in any of us. Even those of us with friends as dark as night. Melanin may make skin prettier and stronger, but it is not a guard against the programming that American culture carries.
Source:
The Glosario
http://www.theunapologeticmexican.org/glosario.html#melanin
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@ B.R.
To pick up on Linda’s point, the structure of your argument like that of white people who want to use the n-word:
1. Because SOME black people use it, it cannot be racist. Therefore blacks who get upset at my use of it need to get a life.
2. What matters is the INTENT of the person using the word, not the word itself or the statements it appears in.
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@ B.R.
“Sub-Saharan Africa” is a WHITE RACIST CONCEPTION. That it is used to say good things does not wash that away. If anything it makes it more dangerous because it makes it seem more innocent.
Blackface is racist. The fact that there were BLACK entertainers who used blackface did not make it any less so. The fact that Al Jolson, one of the best American entertainers ever, used it does not make it any less racist.
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@ B.R.
Words like “sub-Saharan Africa”, “Indian”, “Native American”, “black”, etc are GOOD words to use if you are talking about white power and the world it has created – colonialism, racism, racialized identities, etc.
But they are TERRIBLE terms to use, as tools of thought, if you want to talk about the world before 1400 or the world in general apart from what whites have done to it. At best you fall into the “Africa is a country” sort of fallacy. At worst you talk in a way where white racism appears to be an objective and neutral point of view because you are using its framing.
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@ Linda
This whole sub-Saharan Africa thing needs a parody post.
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^ haha! Agreed! The continual dysfunction of sub-Alpine Europe! The bankruptcy and bail-outs, the collapse of the Euro, the lazy, unproductive, siesta taking, beach laying, wine loving, natives!
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@ Bulanik
Ottomans were Islamic, so it’s understandable why you would forget about them or lump them in with Arabs like many historians do. I chuckle when you make a comment like “Europe overtook the Ottomans” b/c I always consider Turkey a part of Europe. At least it’s in the EU, but I forget that culturally, maybe it’s not so “European.”
“Do you think this particular incursion by the Ottoman’s was sidelined because of Napoleon’s expeditions in Egypt, and…. by France’s invasion and occupation of Algeria?… …”
No b/c the Ottomans were in N. Africa much longer than the British/French/Spanish/Italians. British occupation of Algeria in the late 19th/early 20th c. was short and coincided with the rule of the Ottoman Muhammed Ali dynasty. Even when Britain got rid of one disloyal pasha, it replaced him with a more loyal family member. In other words, Britain controlled Egypt by controlling the Ottoman ruling class (some of whom are still in politics today).
In Algeria, yes, more French settlers came and created a real apartheid system. As you mentioned, after Algerian independence many French left, and the majority of Algerians never converted to Christianity. The French undeniably left their mark in Algeria, but IMO the Ottoman impact was more lasting.
“Do you think that the Ottoman influence could be felt more in eastern North Africa (Libya, Egypt) more than elsewhere on that coastline?”
Yes, especially in Egypt where the Ottoman Muhammad Ali dynasty ruled for the longest and continues to have some involvement in politics (Although I am rather surprised that non-establishment leaders like Tantawni, who is half Nubian rose to power in 2011).
As to the uniformity of culture of the Ottoman empire, I think much of what we label as “Arabic” is actually Ottoman, e.g., the popularity of these coffee houses, yogurt, baklava, doner/kebab, wearing the fez, and I think Ottomans popularised the use of tobacco in the middle east. Just some small examples of the influence of Ottoman culture…
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Well, Abagond, I disagree with you…The Nigerian professor wrote a very in depth paper, with information that is even relevant to the english we speak…to equate it to some racist parady is ridiculous
Each paper I brought in was positive and relative to the point that they are trying to get across and what I am trying to get across
I dont think the “nonapologeticmexican” can grasp that, and I dont think it has anything to do with equating my usage of the word and these black African scholars
I think reffering the “Medataranian ” part of Europe is exactly the same thing
You just cant come up with enough real reasons why this phrase is racist in itself
I have been saying exactly , its intent that matters
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The question I have to ask you , Abagond is, what does it mean to you , that I can link youtubes of all of these places in sub Sahara black Africa , various countries, various cultures, that have developed a similar way to express musical concepts, that nobody else came up with ?
What does it mean to you that these concepts come down to us today in an extremly powerful way , and go back farther in time than any other culture on the planet ?
what does it mean to you that these concepts are pretty much not acknowledged by most of the Western world and Arab and Asian world , yet, the people who evolved those concepts , were brutaly taken into slavery , more than 20 million , and from the basic areas that you can link these concepts ? sub Sahara black Africa, and that these concepts dominate the modern world right now
I mean how do you describe that?
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The funny thing is, everyone here on this blog is just a cyber blip to me, there is no eye to eye contact…when I go out of this blog, my profesional life is immersed in Afro diasporic music concepts.
I have a responsibility to understand the properties of the music I play for the dancers , and, if I am a throrough musician,I should know the origins of these music concepts.
You and all the commenters on here, have given me absolutly nothing about how these concepts have originated, where they come from, what the properties are and why…some commenters gave me some terms like “ancient Africans” , which I use also, because I will use any term that can help to put a focus on exactly what these concepts are. At the most , people have tried to describe migrations or evolutions that really are very nebulous about who the people are , and what their culture is…or commonalities that are suffocating , dismissing
Yet, the Nigerian woman has a paper that has some profound actual hands on descriptions of words from the Igbo , and how those words have migrated our of Africa, and she uses the term “sub Sahara Africa” to focus and make clear the origins of the language. Her description , using the phrase and her conveying what are the exact words , goes farther than anything you are the other commentarists have come close to…
and you think its in the same context as “theunapologeticmexican” or “black face”? No , I dont agree with you , Agagond, and your opinion is not cut in stone as the last word on this, nor anyone else on this blog…its just your opinion and I dont agree with it, and you try to railroad where I am coming from as a racist point of view .
I mean blackface, Abagond? Equal to the dynamic that these professors are dealing with and the concpepts Im talking about?
Please, if that is the leval you are trying to sink where I am coming from to, you sure havent convinced me of anything
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And, Ill tell you something else, inspite of the hubris, the attempted railroading it into some kind of racist equal to blackface or a political agenda from Mr unapologetic, and, inspite of the misinformation I have to keep correcting and demonstrating the reality with what the culture is and who the people are making it , and where they come from, and then take this flak…if one person out there reading it absorbs what I am saying and they can get any strength from the ammunition I am bringing in, that arnt my concepts , they are the concepts of the people who evolved it, and can feel what Im talking about , a body of knowledge that is as important as any left us in the history of humankind,and it is from sub Sahara black Africa that comes at us from the Afro diasporic …then I can take the constant belittling and put downs and implicastions of racism..
Amunition that can be used against racists is amunition…you can decide to use it or not, but its still amunition…
Ive been studying this for 5 and a half decades , and I can talk about it that long…so bring your lunch, Abagond
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The people who have passed down these concepts to me, are more Afro diasporic than Bulanik.They are much more profoundly aware and commited to these concepts than Bulanik is…Bulanik does not trump their knowledge, and neither do you , Abagond…
Am i suposed to cast aside their incredible experiance and contributions that they gave to me, because you have your opinion ?
No, Abagond, you and Bulanik, and anyone else on here does not have more knowledge about this than Dr Lonnie Smith, Bunky Green, Marcus Miller, Sonny Sharrock, Barrozinho, Elza Soares, Nacao Pernambuco, Coco Raizes de Arcoverde, Carmen Lundy, Hamid Drake, Steve Mccall, Edi Machado, David E. Tillman, Cleavlon Eaton,Aurinho de Coco, Malawi, Irene Cara (good percusionist), Robert Shy, Rufus Reid, Fred Anderson, Billy Brimfeild, Jimmy Ponder, Ricky Ford, Chico Freeman, Richie Morales , Fred Hopkins, Roberto Santos, Luizao Maia, Doc Johnson,Russle Blake, Clint Houston, Henry Johnson, Fabinho Costa, Raniere Ricardo, Neisha Folkes, Wilbert Bradley , Mayra Conzales, Al Criado, Foday Musa Suso, Rocky Dzonue, Minnie Ripperton,all the wonderful passistas I ever worked with, and many other people I performed with, was hired by, recorded with , etc who are Afro diasporic people, but, even more important, Afro diasporic people who immersed themselves deeper in these concepts than any one on this blog (being Afro diasporic does not mean someone just understands these concepts), and, they passed their knowledge on to me , as much by just playing and performing on the bandstand and in the studio,including the notion that these concepts are from sub Sahara Africa.Not to forget for one minute all my idols I never played with , but, who instilled and inspired the realities of what these concepts mean , and , reading the giants , what they have to say and their referances to sub Sahara Africa, and these concepts…
When I leave this blog, those are the people who I really turn to for the reality on this subject, they are the people who really matter, because they gave me so much knowledge about it…there is nothing you or anyone on this board can say that can trump the profound gifts these artists passed on down to me…
I dont think “theunapoligeticmexican” can either…
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@ B.R,
How is this not just a case of cultural diffusion? The same way the music passed down to you, Brazil and Minnie Riperton? You all had to learn it at some point. Or are you saying it is genetic? If you are then that is racist by definition. Maybe there is something I am missing.
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This is something for me to learn. I see there is a myriad of comments from different commenters. But in addition to Abagond’s post. I found a website. Voice of America News website. This is what I learned. That according to Nigerian born Chika Onyeani, who is chairman of Celebrate Africa. Mr. Onyeani says the term sub Saharan is a racist term because of the HIV/AIDS pandemic. Mr. Onyeani says that the phrase is demeaning to Africa because during the time of Kwame Nkrumah. Nobody referred to Africa as sub Saharan. It was always Africa. But due to the AID/HIV pandemic this term was brought into use.To refer to black Africa as against Arab Africa. But no other country is referred as sub anything according to Mr. Onyeani. Only to the same people who have been referred to as sub humans. I can understand why this would be thought of as racist. This explanation makes sense to me. The other comments are long and kind of padantic. But I will challenge myself to read them all. Because I learn from everyone.
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@ B.R.
I am not saying you are racist. I am saying the term “sub-Saharan Africa” is racist. It comes out of a white racist view of history. It draws a big fat line across Africa based on race. It makes the most diverse part of the world into undifferentiated blob. Like how I used to think of New Jersey when I lived in New York. And with about the same level of arrogant dismissiveness. It is the “all blacks look alike” thing dressed up as objective geography.
And just for those who missed it, they add a “sub” to it. Are Italy and Greece “sub-Nordic”? Are the U.S. and Mexico “sub-Canadian”? Is Latin America sub-Anglo-America? Who the hell thinks up this shit?
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BR,
Dear God, everybody here has seen your videos and listened to you explain the concepts, the “complexity” and “genius” of the beats that originated in Africa that has created the music that we enjoy today.
I have yet to read one person say to you “BR, you’re wrong, the Africans were not musical geniuses”…everyone has already said “Thank you” for the valuable information that we may have/or not have known.
and no one is disagreeing with you about the fact that Africans don’t get the respect and acknowledgements they deserve.
You bringing in musical concepts and it’s origination has nothing to do with the term “sub-Saharan” Africa..if Africa to you represents music in all its genius and glory– then good for you.
if you want to say ” black Africans” as a way to differentiate between the ethnic groups that you consider “white” like the Moroccans or Algerians, then just say “black” Africans – when people say “Africa” anyway, everyone envisions black people.
But the term “sub-Saharan Africa” is just another way for polite white society and ignorant a’s racist to say “black” just like the word “Bantu” is used to mean west Africans that were brought to the Americas during the trans-Atlantic slavery.
this is why ignorance of Africa is rampant.–when do the Africans get a chance to transcend their colour and are seen as a diverse group a people?!
That speak many languages and don’t all Look Alike or share the same identical genes or culture – and they all have Ethnic names that they’ve called each other for 100’s of years.
In America and everywhere else in white-dominated societies, white individuality as people are respected to the point where they transcend being just a colour…they are French, Basque, Sicilian, Serbian, Slovene, etc…
but when they (white people) see a person with dark skin or African, this person isn’t given the same respect they accord whites/Europeans
…instead of them asking this African descended person “who he is” –they just label him “black” and keep it moving because they could care less if the Africans ethnicity is Habesha or Fulani – -they just see the colour of his skin.
I am not OK with this.
black people in Africa are more than the colour of their skin and if we (African-descended westerners) are forced to learn the names and call Europeans and Asians by their nationality/ethnicity, then Africans should be given the same respect by the rest of the world.
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@Linda; I totally agree with you.
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@ B.R.
“Black Africa” is racist too (it is like saying “Yellow Asia”) but it is a much better term than “sub-Saharan Africa”. It means the same thing yet:
1. No “sub”.
2. Its racialization is clear, it does not hide it as geographic neutrality.
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@Abagond; I understand why it’s a racist term I get it. Your explanation was clear to me.
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I love how when people are talking about racism in soccer in Europe. It’s always those Eastern Europeans. Notice the divide, because Western Europe is better. In the same way when I was growing up that Egypt was not Africa. Somehow Northern Africa get’s the divide and of course those Ethiopians were all starving nitwits who couldn’t manage their own country. I tell you, sitting through those geography classes realizing that my classmates didn’t know that Austria was not Austrialia I wonder what chance Africa had. Sub, Under, Lesser, Inferior well I don’t have to be a thesaurs to get the picture. Then again Africa could have just been Libya if you let other people name you. It could just be land envy after all some continents are as large as others.
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So, Abagond, and , Linda, why do we recognise “European classical music” as a body of knowledge , remembering Europe is part of Eurasia, that was between many countries , that had many customs, many languages , yet certain principles of how to express music , are brought under an umbrella of concepts that can be quantifyingly identible ? And on the same body of land you have another part that doesnt have these principles in its musical expresion at all? How does difusion and commonalties deal with that? Difusing it is what really starts to make it “Joe Africa”, and these concepts start to get buried, surpessed, dismissed or destroyed…i brought in a youtube addressing that very powerfully.
“Black”? We have been up and down about this, we use “black ” all the time , I brought in information that indicated “black” and “African” were terms that some slaves used to self identify, not the white people, who used terms like “n word”, “negro”, ” nigra”, ” colored”…not “black”, as well as we went through a whole debate about this and I produced absolute proof that some Africans self identify as “black”…how can you imply that Africans dont use that term to express themselves? It doesnt mean they come up and say “Hi, Im black”
By the same token, Im sure not saying that some Africans dont express that “sub Sahara AFrica” is racist to them, but I brought in 5 vivid examples of Africans who are writing extremly informative and up lifting examples , using the term “sub Sahara AFrica”…I find it ludicriss in the light of that information to imply Africans dont identify Africa that way also…Im sure not saying AFricans walk around and say “Hi, Im sub Sahara black African”, but its just reality that the people who wrote those papers liberaly used it in their description of Africa based on the points they are making.Its obvious there is plenty of differant points of view on this from the Africans themselves, and, if there are these differant points of view between black Africans, who sais anybodies views on here are the right ones?
Your views are not the end all final word on the matter. I brought in a bunch of black people who have immersed themselves in these concepts and passed their definitions down to me, I was in a debate on Marcus Miller’s now defunct forum, about these origins and concepts and he agreed with me..I mean this is Marcus Miller, an individual who has immersed himself in these concepts far more than anyone on this blog (he knows the Euopean concepts as well)
I remember at my one year at the American Concervatory of Music in Chicago, before I dropped out because I was learning more on the street than in class about my instrument (I wish I could have gotten more about harmony ,now in retrospect) , and they put the best of us drummers in a special “afro drum class”…So we had done some grooves, and then I sugested “lets do some odd times, in 5 or 7(which are concepts based on phrases, linear way to express rhythm, started in Turkey and ending up in India, where they have taken it to a very high leval, they groove in India also ). There were some really fine individuals in this class, Bryan Grice, a drummer who went on to a very strong profesional career, Silas King, Turk…and they informed me that there is a differance in where how these concepts are expressed, and they had referances to “sub Sahara Africa” as the fonte…
So you have to realise, these arnt points coming from a “white American”,they are concepts coming from black Afro diasporic people who immersed themselves deeply in these concepts, and, have their ways of describing it and they passed that down to me…
Im suposed to abandon the lessons they brought to me, Abagond, for your opinion, when you arent immersed in these concepts? You are a computor programmer , very well read, very knowledgable about Western thought and literature, and very politicly aware of racial issues affecting you.
But , a highly skilled group of Afro diasporic individuals , very immersed in these concepts, dont have your opinion, 5 black Africans have used the phrase “sub Sahara Africa” in their papers,obviously they dont agree with the other black African individual who associates it with aids…
This is not set in stone, and, Im going to stick with the incredible artists who have passed their knowledge down to me and really are immersed in these concepts and defining them…
there is no semantical term that can really break it down correctly, all terms could be nit picked and found to be not acceptable to really descibe it. To use sub Sahara black Africa, to describe these concepts, is certainly to differentiate from the white commonalities that are all over South Africa, to not distinguish that is really not focusing in on the fonte of these concepts
“Joisey”..yeah, that is funny, Abagond, haha, but, it doesnt equate what really is at stake and being talked about
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So , there are differant groups of black people , and Africans, with differant points of views on this, some people I have brought in are highly qualified…
Are you trying to tell me that this is a closed subject set in stone about how black people feel about it? Or how African people feel about it?
Why are you making it seem that the highly qualified group of people who passed on this knowledge to me, are irelavant and playing into some white racist mind set?
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@B.R
I think I’ve overestimated your apparent grasp and knowledge of racsim. Particularly when it is expressed internally by Black/African or POC.
I’ve actually been making time to read a lot of your exchanges so I am not making this claim lightly. Your whole thread of arguments here seems to be based on your experience as a musician amongst other Black/African musicians (or as you term it: Afro diasporic individuals) who all used or referenced the term: Sub-Saharan African to refer to thier knowledge of musical traditions or trends. So what?
A white rap artist could make the same argument about his usage of the N-word saying the best and most popular Afro diasporic individuals he associated and held indepth conversations with all used this N-word term. So what?
Does that mean the N-word is not a racist term?
Numerous examples of other similar words provided by other commentators have been used here to point this out to you (Negro or Blackface? ) but still you choose to defend the term: Sub-Saharan African as not being racist?
This speaks heavily to your understanding of how the dynamics of internalised racism plays out in the minds of Afro diasporic peoples. This is an area, I am afraid, “you do not get”!!!
Just my opinon as a person of Afro diasporic decent I would like to express.!
Just like colonialism, slavery, racism and the N-word these are constructions that were imposed on African peoples. They did not originate from African peoples. They were imposed on them by Europeans along with a “mentality” which sought to rationalise and justify them.
But you B.R being the obviously more wiser one on all of these topics than anyone of us here say: So What?
Is this really what your long and adinfintum comments have all been about?
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@ Bulanik
I love that quote. It is from “No Name in the Street” (1972).
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@Bulanik; That succinctly describes the inablity of certain white people. I don’t like making generalizations but. That quote describes pretty much half of white America and Europeans abroad who do not know how to reflect. They are so deluded in their whiteness that they can’t see how non white people feel. That’s a great quote by Baldwin. Thank you for that.
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@ B.R.
Europe, unlike all the other continents, was defined by the people who live there. That, and an accident of history, makes it work well as a cultural zone. That is not necessarily true of any other continent.
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The more I research on my own why this is a perjorative term , I’m learning that the people that are indigenous to that region in those African countries are thought of as sub humans by the continents detractors. Because of the poverty and disease they are looked upon as lepers. It is my understanding that sub means below. I guess geographically it would be defined as below the Sahara. But the more I reasearch this subject, It has socialogical pathologies attached to it as well. So for me I totally understand why this term is of a pejorative nature. The commentors Linda and Bulainik made it easy for me to understand what this topic was about. I always learn something from all the commentors.
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@B.R. Fo what it’s worth I can appreciate you vaste knowledge of music and you as a musician. I can learn something from that as well.
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@ Kwamla
Thank you.
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@ B.R.
Like Kwamla points out, just because a black person does something does not mean it is not racist against black people. If only it were that simple.
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@Bulanik – “You simply cannot prove that the term “sub Saharan Africa” is not racist” – Can you stick to the logically possible please?
In any case this has got to win the gold medal for the silliest thread I’ve read yet on this blog. Those living in Baja California better rally in your support.
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“BR,
So, Abagond, and , Linda, why do we recognise “European classical music” as a body of knowledge , remembering Europe is part of Eurasia, that was between many countries , that had many customs, many languages , yet certain principles of how to express music , are brought under an umbrella of concepts that can be quantifyingly identible ?”
Linda says,
Absolutely no comparison, BR, because the word “European” encompasses Europe as a continent – not a subdivision of Europe. The same way if you said “African folk music”, this encompasses the continent of Africa—my question again is: “why is it OK to divide Africa, when Europe doesn’t divide itself into North and Sub-?”
Because Europeans artificially divided Europe and Asia into separate land masses – you think it’s OK to do this with Africa as well—based on what—physical features of the populations.
That’s Eurocentrism rearing it’s ugly head again…who taught us that Europe was separate from Asia as a continent – well it wasn’t the Chinese or Indians… so we are all children of Eurocentrist teachings because we had No choice. When white western scholars change their minds, then the rest of us are told to go along with it.
….so once again, Africa has to go along with white western ideology about race and accept “sub-Saharan Africa” because of white western scholars and media say so because northern African are “lighter” and have more “caucasian” phenotypes than people south of the Sahara – please stop the madness, BR.
southern Europeans are darker and have a different history than northern Europeans—so can we now call anyone south of the Alps, Pyrenees, and Balkans – “sub European” – I’m all for it—do you think we can get white western scholars to go along with it.
So, where’s the fair level playing field that you advocate for Africans in the western world?
As you pointed out – You have your opinion and I have mine and mine is: Africans are not Sub-anything…they are Africans…period…and don’t need white or black westerners or western-trained African scholars to tell them otherwise.
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Perhaps what joshua is alluding to is that logically it’s difficult – if not altogether impossible – to prove a negative. Simply because BR couldn’t prove (to the satisfaction of the commenters involved, anyway) that the term ‘sub-Saharan Africa’ ISN’T racist, that doesn’t constitute logical proof (or even evidence) that it therefore IS racist.
Here…the following Wikipedia entry explains it better than I can —
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_absence
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Yes the term, ”sub Saharan Africa” is racist and biased.
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First, Bulanik, again, you dont know what I said, and are twisting it…I said five line staff paper and I said Europeans evolved harmony like no other culture…this is not melody …and it us just a fact
Kwamla, Im disapointed you would compare rappers defending the n word with various positive in depth up lifting papers , by black Africans , using sub Sahara Africa liberaly. The paper about the Igbo has incredible information , about exact origins of words that no one on here ever came close to going as in depth as that paper did with astounding revelations of exact words in Egyption , Indian and English…and you think that equals a rappers defence of the n word? Really, shame on you!!
I can bring in other advanced African music scholars like the late Ghana music educator, Willie Anku, Themba Tana etc using sub Sahara Africa before the aids epidemic. What you see is, there are many black African people who use the term in various subjects like law for sub Sahara African women, envirnmental law, lingusitics, music etc etc etc…yet, the commenters disagreeing with me, trying to railroad the phrase into a racist term, are stuck on a very narrow , small area of aids, and some rare media reports using the phrase. I hardly see that phrase used in reports that I can remember…and you have the white racists who imply that black Africans never contributed anything …Its like all these incredible papers and revelations on a deep leval , all the insights the musicians want to give us , and the need to focus on the contributions and needs for a people from a certain area, are just stepped on, and made insignificant because of this narrow focused railroading of this phrase.
Kwamla, Im not surprised you dont get it, because, as far as using it to describe the origins of drum /dance , its another subject you have very little knowledge, just like Bulanik…seriously, you both arnt even amateur musicians, and, I battle for these concepts with pros..Bulanik cant even perceive what evolved harmony means..as a matter of fact all the people disagreeing with me about how I can use the phrase in a very high leval to describe a unifying concept of culture, are ignorant about how to express these concepts so they have no grasp of how powerful and uplifting using sub Sahara black Africa can be…how it can shoot the racist depiction of it between the eyes
Even more perplexing is , the way Im tying it in with cultures, who have a unifying body of knowledge that came to us from the longest way ago that humankind started to progress forward , and reaches us powerfully into today, is that, exactly because it is cultural, it eliminates “race” as the difining factor…what we have all been saying…it eliminates DNA , admixtures, …it is focused on cultures ..whichs is what I thought we are all saying is the way it is suposed to be…”its not about races”…it just so happens the people who developed this culture emanated out of central Africa and happen to have dark hued skin and other similar physical features
Linda, I dont get what you are talking about at all, its just some personal logic you have put together for yourself , that looks petty in the face of the incredible musicians I have brought in and the high leval papers of black Africans who freely use the term “sub Sahara Africa”…I mean really, do any of you think you are on some higher leval of awareness of racism than these musicians I have mentioned?You are also another non musician who doesnt know about the origins of music culture and cant speak to the realities and how to describe the origins of music…can you recognise the cascara pattern in Ghana drumming, Senegal drumming and Dogan drumming? Do you know what the cascara pattern is? None of you are even amateur musicians…Bulanik sais she is a trained dancer, I played for hundreds of dancers training in dance classes in New York..that doesnt mean they were in depth performers..and she certainly isnt immersed in deep Afro diasporic concepts of music and dance…as a matter of fact , nobody disagreeing with me here is (I take note of your statement, Mary)….
This all just smacks of a thing I have pointed out before, about “instant semantical political agenda”..
You know, we are littered with these political agendas that werent based enough on truth on the ground, that they just come back later on to bite us in the behind…because they were based on weak foundations anyway….Jim Crow, communism, tap dance is shucking and jiving etc…the problem is, they linger on and taint thinking like a bad smell…like calling someone a pedophile when they arnt…
You expect me to discard the enormous lessons Ive learned from people about my profesion that everyone here is ignorant of,lessons form advanced black Afro diasporic individuals who have gone a lot farther than any of you into immersing themselves into Afro diasporic culture…you expect me to think that an extrodanairy paper about linguistics by a Nigeran woman , taking much deeper than any of you ever did, is tainted because she uses the phrase “sub Sahara Africa”?
You are going to have to do better than that…you havent come close at putting up a valid reason to stop using that phrase..I dont care if you dont want to do it, but, equating it to racist in the way I use it, is weak reasoning
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Flamma just brought this in on a thread:
“Ramesses III
According to a genetic study in December 2012, Ramesses III, second Pharaoh of the Twentieth Dynasty and considered to be the last great New Kingdom king to wield any substantial authority over Egypt, belonged to Y-DNA haplogroup E1b1a, mainly found in sub-saharan Africa.[22”
Very good, Flamma !! That is an excellent point !! The phrase was used to make a valid and uplifting point
What is really going on here on this blog in this argument with me by the people dismissing my points, is a “social political ” construct , where the extremly valid and relevant points I am making are , dismissed in favor of a social agreement to isolate my arguments as the “ignorant white oppessor” against the “poc”… even though you got Sam making arguments about Africans dont refer to themselves that way…which I have lacerated by bringing in my examples
Because these are the arguments coming at me from Kwamla, and Bulanik, two people who are informed by anti American bias , like Sam . Bulanik thinks Im calling her a communist, but Im saying she buys into anti American bias by defending people like Fidel and Che, the same way Sam did…
And the other people arguing against my points are wrapping themselves , and taking a stand using a semantical political agenda instead of just really looking at the whole truth
then we got these very strange comparisons of like these incredible artists and black Africans writing in depth up lifting papers on sub Shara Africa are on the leval of rappers defending the n word and equating it to some kind of uncle tomism….
when it comes to dumb arguments, water seeks its own leval, if yo uhave low leval arguments , your conclusions are low leval
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Kwamla, what is very disapointing about your position is, for someone who has given me incredible information about the Dogan, gold mining in ancient south east Africa, and other enlightening subjects , its obvious your attack on me is based that I handed your head to you on a political engagement we had…
I handed you your head because your arguments had no room for the truth I brought in about the South American dynamic and Chaves and Farc…it just spoke to your bias…I said you were ignorant, because the truth is , you dont live where I live and “ignored” the valid information I brought in…Im ignorant of the political dynamic of where you live…and you are ignorant of the political dynamic of where I live…
That is why you come in here, take information from an incredible paper by a Nigerian woman, with information that could easily link up with the Dogan infomation, like the origin of the word “osirius”, and how that points even more powerfully to cultures that eminated out of the central of AFrica with advanced concepts that have affected us all deeply today, and you try to “uncle tom” it and equate it to rappers defending the n word
wow, political agenda is an mfer isnt it?
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dogon dogon dogon not dogan
i dont like “miscegenation”…I know how those arguing against me feel
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…by the way, before anyone gets bunched up about “how those arguing against me feel”…I mean about a semantical word not being black facing racism…again, those incredible musicians Ive mentioned know as much about racism as you do, but arnt hung up on the semantics…at least it would be incredible arrogance if anyone on here thinks they know more about racism than those incredible Afro diasporic musicians
Here are some more incredible musicians I personaly played with who intstilled these concepts in me:
Walter Bishop Jr, played with bird and Miles, Justo Almario, played with Mongo Santamaria and the soundtrack Havana, Ari Brown, played with one of the greatest drums set drummers of all time, Elvin Jones , Drasir Khalid, drummer on “The Electrifying Eddie Harris”, I mean this list goes on and on as far as personal education next to these high leval musicians
this isnt even including the icons who I didnt play with who have stated these truths in interviews in jornals and magizines of my profesion , which I read as part of my education…
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@ B.R.
No one is saying that they are Uncle Toms, that they are bad people. This is not some kind of McCarthyite witch hunt.
I have used the term on occasion. So has Bulanik, I believe. Even though it makes our skin crawl. Even though we understand how it is a racist word.
Every single living person who thinks in English is racist to one degree or another. Because thought shapes language and language shapes thought – and English has been shaped in part by white racists. They have peed into the pool. That does not mean we give up speaking English. It means we look at the words we use and think about what they mean.
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@ Bulanik
“But remember, too, that Turkey is not part of the EU.”
My mistake, but it is a founding member of the Council of Europe.
“I don’t think of Ottomans as Turks. They are not the same. Turkey was not around at the time of Ottomans.”
Actually, the name Turkey was applied to the same landmass as early as the 14th century during Ottoman rule, and a Turkish speaker was the founder
of the Ottoman empire. IMO Turkey is to the Ottoman empire as England is to the British empire.
“you say this: ‘…the Ottoman impact was more lasting’ Could you go into more details about this, and maybe include a link, if poss?”
I simply mean to say that Algeria became a powerful and wealthy nation because of the Ottoman piracy based in Algiers. Because their main source of wealth was kidnapped Christian slaves (along with lots of other looted goods) from Europe, many Algerians today are descendants of those slaves and/or the Ottoman settlers themselves. Not nearly as many Algerians are estimated to be descendants of French colonials or Pieds-Noirs.
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“If I’m to follow your reasoning, then we can say: ‘Constantinople is a city in Thrace.'”
No b/c Thrace no longer exists. I never said Istanbul IS a city in the Ottoman Empire, I said Turkey is in Europe. So I don’t see how your analogy works here.
“Since, for you, ‘Turkey’ is the right term for the Ottoman Empire, because of it’s an old world for a large area of land, then why didn’t you say instead: ‘I always consider Anatolia part of Europe?’ ”
I’m not at all saying the Ottoman empire is “interchangeable” with Turkey, I’m merely associating Turkey with the Ottoman empire in the same way I (and many others) associate England with the British empire. Big difference. Again, the Ottoman empire was ruled by Turkish speakers in the land that was both then and is now called Turkey, just as the British empire was ruled by English speakers in the land that is now and was then called England.
I could have said Anatolia but chose the more modern word Turkey instead. Anatolia means “Orient” in Greek, but Turkey means “land of Turks” and Turks are European. I understand that there are other Turkic states, but we all know what Turkey means.
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”BR,
Linda, I dont get what you are talking about at all, its just some personal logic you have put together for yourself, that looks petty in the face of the incredible musicians I have brought in and the high leval papers of black Africans who freely use the term “sub Sahara Africa”…I mean really, do any of you think you are on some higher leval of awareness of racism than these musicians I have mentioned?You are also another non musician who doesnt know about the origins of music culture and cant speak to the realities and how to describe the origins of music…can you recognise the cascara pattern in Ghana drumming, Senegal drumming and Dogan drumming?”
Linda says,
I do attempt to take you seriously but you have now just crossed over into the ridiculous.I had to laugh when I read this because BR, as you mentioned, this is cyberspace and everyone is a blip…
This is not a pissing contest on “who knows who or what” musically, no matter how much you keep attempting to make it one)…this is about the term “sub-Saharan” Africa and how it should not even be used because it is demeaning.
I think you bringing music up as a gauge for knowledge of my or any other posters “levels of awareness of racism” is a joke …the musicians I know personally and grew up with aren’t geniuses …they are good at what they do because they study their craft and play hard just like anyone else in any profession.
You don’t “get” what I’m talking about because you don’t wish to.
but sorry as a child of white western thinking, you are NO different or anymore enlightened than the rest of us afro-descendants of the diaspora when it comes to the people or history of Africa…don’t take this the wrong way but please get over yourself…
Since you feel that bringing in “youtubes” and quoting western-trained African scholars gives this word “life” and relevance, then I will bring in the words from REAL Africans – at least we all can read how They feel about this made up white western word “sub Saharan” (and hopefully, you will get what they are saying since I am speaking Chinese as far as your concerned)
http://www.nairaland.com/988660/what-sub-saharan-africa-exactly
http://www.africannewsworld.com/2009/07/contemptuousness-of-sub-saharan-africa.html
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@ Bulanik
“But would it do to call a Turk, an ottoman? If you did, you might get some strange looks!”
I merely associated the Ottoman empire with the landmass referred to as Turkey. And yes, at one time, the Ottoman empire was indeed called “Turkish Empire” or simply “Turkey” FYI.
“You wished to superimpose a modern concept on an arcane entity because it suited your notion that Turks are exclusively European”
Again, the name Turkey is not just modern, it was also used during the height of the Ottoman empire. Using the primary Oxford definition Turks are natives of Turkey, and if I associate Turkey with Europe, then Turks are European.
“I’m not sure why you believed Turkey was part of the EU, but it is are not. ”
I’m not sure why you like beating a dead horse. I accepted the mistake as I should’ve said an “associate member of the EU.”
“Re Anatolia:it existed before the Ottoman Empire and before Turkey”
I’m fully aware but my choice was to use the name Turkey instead.
“Anatolia covers 85% of Turkey, which is in Asia.”
I’m not arguing where Turkey is geographically situated. I think ALL of Europe is in Asia, BTW. My only point, whether you agree or not, was that I associate Turkey politically with Europe.
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“I’m not sure how how much most Algerians relate that to their Ottoman past.”
I agree that not many relate about their Ottoman past…I’ve met some who claimed to be totally unaware of the centuries of Ottoman rule in Algeria.
“Turco-Algerians are about 5% population. Figures vary.”
That is an estimate, and others are as high as 10-25%. But who really knows? And that does not include the descendants of the European slaves that the Turks brought to Algeria. My only point is that this is an example of the lasting impact of the Ottoman Empire in Algeria.
“…didn’t the combination of violence and disease epidemics cause the indigenous Algerian population to decline by nearly one-third …”
Not sure how you can call them all “indigenous” and I don’t think Algeria’s population ever took such a steep decline during that timeframe.
“I’d suggest that it’s no longer wise to associate present-day Turkey politically with Europe.”
Well, that’s your opinion, but being that Turkey is a founding member of the Council of Europe, an EU associate and aspirant, OSCE, etc., and Turkey is a secular state with a parliamentary gov’t similar to those found across Europe, I think it’s politically closer to Europe than Western Asia.
“There’s also a fair bit of repression towards free speech, detention of journalists, academics and secularists in general.”
To be fair, the journalists were charged with terrorism and are currently on trial(not at all condoning this), and there are journalists in UK who are standing trial for breaching privacy. As to speech, it is illegal to say certain things about the holocaust or Mohammed in France, for example.
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@ Linda
I’d like to commend you for the excellent links you provided for this debate: They are worth providing again:
http://www.nairaland.com/988660/what-sub-saharan-africa-exactly
http://www.africannewsworld.com/2009/07/contemptuousness-of-sub-saharan-africa.html
@ B.R
You really need to put down that drum and start reading analytical breakdowns of the term – Sub-Shahran -Africa – like these. This is because nothing you have said so far in too numerous posts to mention has spoken to an actual “visceral” dissection of this term. Now why do you think that is? Because to do so would force you to look at the disparaging and demeaning role the term plays in the everyday lives of Black/African peoples.
Taken from of the links Linda provided. Again…Its your direct inexperience, lack of knowledge and ignorance about a particular form of racism I unsuccessfully tired to explain to you (internalised racism) which prevents you from seeing the relevance or significance of this quote. You still don’t “get it” because if you did you too would realise that it is quite possible that many of the past musicians you’ve associated with also didn’t or preferred to deny this. A common psychological disorder amongst post-colonial Black/African peoples.
Now B.R I don’t recall YOU or any of your links or the people (musicians or otherwise) you mention making any references to this colonial mindset?
But one of those recommended reading links goes further and challenges the orientational perspective of a north and south hemisphere. To appreciate this you need to be standing in an arbitrary point in space above the Earth to decide which is going to be the Southern and Northern hemispheres! This judgement alone should hint strongly to you about the artificial nature of the designated constructions we are using to describe land masses.
On the same basis why do we not just have: North, Central and South Africa in the same way we have for North, Central and South America? Instead we have “Sub-Saharan Africa as well?
You can argue as much as you like for “X” amount of Afro-diasporic peoples who believe “”Sub-Saharan Africa” is NOT racist against “Y” amount of Afro-diasporic peoples who believe it IS racist. But at the end of the day who decides?
Who decides B.R?
Who decides if the N-word is racist in its usage or not ?
Your argument is no different than that of the white director Quentin Tarantino for the exaggerated and continuous explicit usage of it in his films.
Don’t you think its about time now you “got this” concerning this whole debate?
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@Linda; I read this same link that you posted. That’s how I got my information about this subject. I felt something might have been wrong with my reading comprehension form the back and forth with B.R. and Bulainik. I thought this topic was about why sub Saharan Africa is a racist term. I didn’t get the correlation about music and this topic. I thought it was about why the term is pejorative. What did music have to do with this. I liked your explanation. I thought I was saying the same thing that you were saying in your comments why this is a racist term.
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@Bulanik; I feel the same. But I always think you have good information. So I learn from what you post. It’s not in vain.
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@Bulanik
We’re getting WAY off-topic here…but in response to your comments:
– “Islamism of its government” Turkey is by law a secular government, so I don’t know what you mean. If you’re talking about political parties, thenTurkey’s AKP is no different than Germany’s ruling CDU which is rooted in Christian values.
– the “echarpe controversy” is very similar to France’s “voile” controversy. The big difference is that the ban was lifted in Turkey (in practice)but the ban continues to be enforced in France.
– “Erdoğan’s style of leadership” is internationalist, reformist, centralist, and secularist (yes, I think the alliances with Gulen and other religious leaders were purely for temporary political purposes and are unraveling now).
– As to “economic ties with the oil states,” I’m not sure what you mean. Do you include Russia, Norway, Canada, US, Nigeria? Russia is Turkey’s top source of oil.
– “relationship with France” at the moment is not the best politically because of another proposed attack on free speech in France that would have made denying the Armenian holocaust a crime. The court struck this down but relations are still strained.
– “They are dead journalists, either shot or beaten to death by police in the last 10+ years…Like in Britain or France, I suppose.” No, that is not nearly as appalling in Britain or France, but just as many unarmed and innocent citizens, immigrants and “terrorist suspects” are killed over a similar period of time.
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ok, lots to answer
those links are stuck in the same “race” “politics” Im talking about…obviously , the people beleiving these links is the last word, havent absorbed one thing Ive said
I made it clear, this is cultural and you can very much find cultural differances above the Sahara and below…these African drummers that use the term, use the phrase to make that clear, to define that emanating out of west,central , east Africa is a tremendous body of knowledge that came from there , and, went very powerfully south and north with much less force, but, is there…it didnt come down from the north, that is a very important point..and with Arab colonisation, much got changed , in a big way
I use black Africa, because south has Indian presence and white presence, and these concepts I talk about came down south much bigger than north
I never would exclude the south like this guy sais on his link, that is political, I am not talking political at all
I said it wasnt racial or ad mixture , it is a body of knowledge that has come from a long time ago, and the people happen to have dark skin and other similar features…but the basic principles of their cultural expresions, have a link that draws them together in a similar concept that they innovated and evolved like no one else…why cant this incredilbe body of knowledge that came out from the west, center, east of Africa below the Sahara , be given the credit it is due and these African drum masters liberaly use it to define exactly the way it is best expressed to draw attention on what it is…something this person in the links cant and wont do at all in his definition, it is the narrow point of view of what it can mean that the people on here arguing with me about it , paint themselves in the corner with, it is very limited, especialy held up against these other African points of view that deal with linguistics, law and music etc…its lame
before I go on, if anyone wants to, and if you can just let go of the title because that is the only time you will hear the phrase, take a look a little bit at what I am talking about and what those links brought in, that are really only politcal and racial , arnt:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-Saharan_African_music_traditions
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And this semantical political agenda is exactly what I dont like …it can bury culture
Do any of you have any idea what happened to Louis Armstrong in the activist political agenda times in the late 60’s? He was called an Uncle Tom…Abagond, there were referances to blackface and as though these Africans were playing into the white man’s colonial termanology…its just the words in the English language that are in the deck dealt when speaking English, which has this inherited flaws anyway , like you said…
He was looked down on and ostracised in the political activist jargon
Do any of you know how tap dance was perceived at this time? The incredible artists who practiced and innovated this black American dance, were depicted as shucking and jiving for the white man.
35 years later, thanks to herculean efforts from people like Wynton Marsalis and Stanley Crouch and others, Louis Armstrong was brought back to be recognised for the genius he is and what he has brought to American culture
unfortunatly, even with the herculean efforts of Gregory Hines and others, tap dance has been dashed on the rocks of the aftermath of useless wayword political agendas that wernt as valuable as the other agendas going on that were important. Even with flashes by Glover, tap is just not on the radar of something that is really a special part of black American culture
I dont know how great those musicians you know are, Linda, but, I took my self to the major centers ,like New York , Rio and I came from Chicago, a great music center also…I went to get next to some of the best…i can tell you, some of the individuals i played with and sometimes paid to play with , are on a leval that is extremly high, and nothing like what you described of your freinds…maybe you just dont really apreciete your freinds skill, or, you really dont grasp what it takes to handel a 12 bar up tempo modern bop blues, or a sambao, with the cutting edge groove of Rio , or a gua gua co of Cuba with the top players…its no joke, and some of the vision and power and ability to improvise,by these people I have mentioned, is nothing short of genius…and they know racism as much as anyone here and can speak to it and some are much older and knew a racism that was much deeper than any of you know
No, I trust the African musicians and linguasts and points of view of the papers and examples I brought in and their use of sub Sahara AFrica and, Im not fond of political semantical agendas that fadeout, dismiss, and bury culture, exactly as the guy on those links did…it just isnt in his spectrum
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Bulanik, I totaly get your example of oud and lute and microtones and frets
for sure, its the micro tones that makes the Arab to Indias melodies as some of the most haunting and interesting melodies you can find. they do have their own rhythmic aproach that I have described very well , its phrase based and meant to deal with those flowing over the bar melodies, that arent call responce…this is no judging what is better, its defining the principles that make each one unique and great on to themselves and i can say with sadness, the Afro diasporic concepts are the least respected and understood for what they really are, that is why black sub Sahara Africa puts a powerful finger on where these concepts started and emanated out from
The thing about frets is, I never said Europeans invented harmony, i said they evolved it to a place no other culture had taken it…because i do speak with authority on drum dance especialy Afro diasporic, I am not a harmonic player, Ive been next to some of the deepest, I have to know where they are going, and i have to know form and recognise the intervals and movement of thier phrasing, but, even though i could state certain things with out a doubt, I would have to do some research to explain correctly what I know in my ears…the complexity of chords and where they took it too is unique
The Turkish drummers and percusion made it to the orchestral pit, but, there is only so much you can do with a written score, classical music doesnt groove at all, except Ravel’s Bolero…in its way…or a march, or the jagged Stravinsky intellectualisms, but, compared to the black African genius at those concepts, classical music is somewhat stiff…
Pentatonic melodies are in China too, and black African, but, where Bartok took the harmony is another story, what is wild is how you can hear Mccoy Tyner churn Bartoks harmony concepts through the blues with John Coltrane for a hugely differant look at those modern classical music harmonies
Dahomie (sorry if I spelled your name wrong) I caught your youtube about the Kangaroo dance from Ghana,I live how in the AFro diasporic, there are so many dances that get invented and re invented..we are in carnival now in Brazil, and the rhythms and dance variations that keep reinventing themselves are in full swing and on display…and it is unbeleivable and cultural and Afro diasporic with concepts from sub Sahara black Africa , especialy West AFrica, but, these same principles are in force in East and South Africa too, with the Berbes and Gnawa trails to the North
You mentioned about musicologists once before and thier opinions, I brought in several AFrican musicians who use the term sub Sahara AFrican concepts..
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Here is the description of a Ghana master drummers class:
http://home.comcast.net/~dzinyaladzekpo/music148syllabus.html
the very fact I can bring in so many examples about so many subjects that are positive and informative , by Africans, using the term sub Sahara Africa is a definite reason why the words should be examined, and not railroaded by political activist semantical agendas, points of view that are only race and political orientated…
this subject is by no means cut and dried monolithicly cut in stone
If the people on here arguing with me about this,dont like to use the term for the reasons you have stated, that is fine with me, its when you think that other people , who are afro diasporic, as highly evolved and aware of racism as anyone on here is, are just wrong and that somehow it is totaly wrong…Im not convinced by what Ive heard enough to not use the term to describe a way to pinpoint where a certain body of knowledge came from that actualy gets dismissed way too much in this world…its almost racist to not acknowledge it, not saying anyone here doesnt…
I mean “medaterranian” , what is that ? “middle land”? its as nebulous as sub Sahara,but, people know what it means , and there is no big deal
I prefer to attack racists that use sub Sahara in a negative way, using their exact term to destroy thier petty arguments, just so they know exactly what I mean….
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“mary burrell
@Linda; I read this same link that you posted. That’s how I got my information about this subject. I felt something might have been wrong with my reading comprehension form the back and forth with B.R. and Bulainik. I thought this topic was about why sub Saharan Africa is a racist term. I didn’t get the correlation about music and this topic. I thought it was about why the term is pejorative. What did music have to do with this. I liked your explanation. I thought I was saying the same thing that you were saying in your comments why this is a racist term.”
Linda says,
Mary, thank you for your kind words. I think most everyone here is on the same page when it comes to the term “sub-Sarahan Africa” …which doesn’t really say much at the end of the day because to me, it’s really about how Africans feel about the words and terms used to define them.
Here are a few quotes taken from the comments section of an article by BBC (from 2004)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3421527.stm
(you’ll notice that the Berbers seem to take a big exception to being thought of as “not” Africans vs the Egyptians or other North Africans who claim to be Arabs)
“As someone who is ethnically Egyptian, I do not consider myself “African”. To me, that term has too many racial connotations. Egyptians, as well as other North Africans, are racially Caucasian, and that needs to be acknowledged. I personally favour making the Middle East its own geographic entity. A continent stretching from Morocco to Pakistan would have very similar racial or ethnic populations. However, I believe Africa is important to Egypt, if not only for the precious River Nile. Egyptians, however, are first and foremost Mediterranean or Arabs, depending on which you prefer. I’d go with the former.
Patrick Elyas, Los Angeles, USA/ Egypt”
“I personally didn’t think that North Africa was a separate Africa until I moved to the US. I have heard some Africans from the north telling American or whites that they are French with African background, even though I know they were not born or have lived in France. Some of our northern brothers do not want to associate themselves with black Africa when they are with someone else. Let’s not forget the dreams of Garvey, Nkrumah etc about one Africa.
S.K, Semackor, Ghanaian in the USA”
“I think many of you are mixing up two things about North Africa. The Arabs are not African in the sense that the Berbers are. Many people from Kabyle region (Berber region) have been killed in Algeria because of their “African” identity.
Lila, Algeria”
“We might have cultural and religious differences with the Bambaras of Mali but I am sure that they are closer to us than the Tutsis or the Zulus are to them. Timbuctu is a witness to this. I wish Africans would listen for once to what Massinissa, King of Numidia said thousands of years ago: “Africa to the Africans!”
Amine, Algeria”
Honestly, it is a term commonly used by most people because the media gave it life and we see it everytime we read something in reference to Africa…it even seems harmless in a way …but at the end of the day, as you’ve noticed as well, why is the “Sub”- designation only used on Africa…I have yet to see it applied to any other regions in the world.
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@ Linda Thank You so much for answering me back. And that was very pertinent information I so appreciate your taking the time to research that.
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@Bulanik
And thank you for the info you’ve provided.
It’s not so much my opinion, but that manyTurks consider themselves European; have long supported EU membership (although to a much lesser degree now due to EU’s poor economy) but not Arab League or ASEAN membership; and the PM views Turkey as a colonial force in N. Africa in a manner similar to France’s role in W. Africa, etc.
I personally think your opinion is clouded by Turkey’s Islamic majority.
@ Linda
“’Sub’- designation only used on Africa…I have yet to see it applied to any other regions in the world.”
To be fair, people say “Indian Sub-continent”, but I agree it’s to a much more limited extent, while “Sub-Saharan Africa” seems to be universally applied by the American/western media.
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No , it has nothing to do with racial ideas, Im saying its cultural, and,…I just forgot what I have learned about harmony, and i dont blunder ahead saying things I dont know about as though they are fact…I read and write music but I prefer to feel it, in the later part of my career…but I have forgot many things I learned already
A little brushing up brings back exactly the truth Im saying, its chord progresions that make the differance in the European harmonic aproach , that is why its more evolved…they developement of the cycil of fifths
The Indian classical music basis its harmony you are talking about off a drone, so the micro tones against the drone imply wonderful posibilities and the drone gives it more openess for improvisation, the same reason many jazz musicians stripped away harmonic chord progresions for more simplicity for more room for improvisation…obviously that sure isnt saying chord progresions are the absolute best way to deal with music…but, just like jazz uses harmony as a slave to the groove, and just as I want that aproach to open vamps like the Indians use and African and Arab, but in an AFro diasporic groove, I also want some harmony and chord progresions at the right moment, because it is incredibly beautiful
everything I have said is acurate, about the harmonic progresions and evolvement of harmony in European classical music , and it is the gift they have given the world in music
I always said they “evolved ” harmony didnt invent it and they brought the five line written staff, I didnt say they invented written music cymbals, but, they took it to the leval of the 5 line staff to express the harmonies they were evolving
you can check it out here :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheet_music
You can see that the Tibetan example of their written music is dramaticly differant…everthing I have protrayed is acurate
And , yes, music and dance are very powerful cultural expresions that are extremly important to human developement on this planet and shouldnt be swept under the rug in favor of politial agendas…
Racism in Africa has nothing to do with that semantical phrase…the political strife in Africa has nothing to do with that phrase…
To railroad it into a racist connotation when many Africans themselves use it to express many advanced ideas , like linguistics, law for women, envirnmental issues as well as culture, is a fault of being able to really understand the power and strength of the culture of the people who evolved these concepts of language and music ,and, to be able to counter the racist connotations of the media or just pure racists
I cant remember when sub Sahara Africa wasnt used…the concept if not the phrase became very aperhant to me at an early age that there was a concept of music coming out from below the Sahara by the black Africans , from various tribes and regions, that was unique and powerful…to me , it didnt just come out in the 80’s , depicting poverty and aids…I had heard this phrase used a lot before that…and not in negative ways
If a person can really get the power of these cultures, and how they really can be linked together througout sub Sahara AFrica,and that it came from a long way away and comes into today, that term means something special and uplifting and has a lot of respect, and can easily destroy any racist connotations that are used to degrade the phrase
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Linda, after all the papers and master drummers I brought in using the term “sub Sahara Africa”, how can you imply that “Africans think this way..”, like because you could find examples of some Africans think one way…your impresion is blatently false…this is a problem on this blog, people making blatent statements like “Africans think this way” when I bring in absolute proof that that isnt the case
After bringing in a tremendous wike overview of the breakdown of various tribes and regiones of the sub Sahara and the type of drums they play, if anyone wants to do even a halfway education of what some of these tribes look like and how they play their music described, they are going to get some incredible realisations that you can define a certain link of concepts of drum and dance
I look all the time for women playing drums in Africa, just looking at that wike article and seeing the “Gogo from Tanzania” , I then went to youtube and typed in search and come up with this :
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HH_HM41ixyQ)
the evidence is blatent , powerful and overwelming
to just lump everything into “we are all Africans”, with commanalities and difusions, is what really makes it into “joe Africa”, with no distinctions in cultureal identity
To find that in detail paper about the Igbo and how the words tie in all over the world was just a revelation for me, to help me tie in these cutlural insights I have about the music, and how far back this genius goes, just is humbling….and the music concepts are all over ancient sus Sahara Africa…you cant really grasp the Igbo by just reading about them, you have to see them and what their culture looks like
Linda, many things you have said in your recent comments just fall into “its only music”..that you cant recognise importance and genius in musicians and the insight that they have, speaks a lot about how much you value music in your life, how much you take it for granted,or was I mistaken that you just said that you know personaly musicians and they play music and go to their work and so what ?I mean that is the impresion I got fromwhat you said
And that is one of the things at stake here…do you really value what Louis Armstrong meant to black American culture,or do you think its ok to throw him under a bus for a political agenda…? Does that matter to you? Hasnt time made that political agenda look extremly silly? I would step carfully before I would just slap dab any old semantical expresion as racist , just because you cant counter the racists because you didnt do a little extra research, like the people who threw Armstrong under the bus…if they had done a little research,they would have found out what a giant he was and from what humble beginnings he came from and how he overcame some of the most brutal obsticles to become and icon in black American culture
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“B. R.
Linda, after all the papers and master drummers I brought in using the term “sub Sahara Africa”, how can you imply that “Africans think this way..”, like because you could find examples of some Africans think one way…your impresion is blatently false…this is a problem on this blog, people making blatent statements like “Africans think this way” when I bring in absolute proof that that isnt the case”
Linda says,
BR, everything you just wrote falls into the “blah, blah, blah” category as far as I’m concerned. I brought in comments from African people because you are the person who first brought in a list of black/brown western and African musicians and western-trained African scholars as proof to “why” it’s OK to use the term “sub Saharan” (because these musicians and well-known black people have used the term “sub Saharan Africa”, so it must be OK right?!—give me a break)
I have no idea why you are trying to make this topic about me considering that you don’t know me or who I know, and I don’t feel the need to broadcast all the important or famous people I have ever met in my life like you continuously do…
I respect musicians, (I even love them since I come from one)—but once again – musicians have NOTHING to do with this topic – this subject is about the term “sub-Saharan Africa” and how it’s connotations about Africa.
Africa is synonymous with music but it’s not ONLY about music…Africa should also be well known for its contributions in medicine and science – why do you think Timbuktu was so important—don’t you realize those Empires that ruled it where ruled by Black men – like:
Sonni Ali and Abu Bakr Dao (of clan Sonni Baru) 1464 to 1493, last rulers of the Songhai Empire who followed traditional African religions
Sonni Ali’s general: Mohammed Touré (Askia Mohammed I) 1493-1538, who took over as ruler of Songhai Empire (muslim)
Mansa Musa, ruler of Mali Empire 1312-1337, one of the richest men in African history, who built Universities in Timbuktu and Gao (Mali)
http://www.whenweruled.com/articles.php?lng=en&pg=22
the various rulers of the Mutapa Empire 1430–1760, Ras Tafari Makonnen Woldemikael ruled Ethiopia 1930 to 1974 (known as Haile Selassie) – these people represent African history to me… you constantly bringing in Music when talking about black or African cultures is almost like a slap in the face…
because Africa (and blacks in the Diaspora) “were” and “are” more than singers, dancers, entertainers, and athletes. Nothing wrong with these professions but they play into long-held white stereotypes of black people that Need to be broken in todays society.
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BR says @
“to just lump everything into “we are all Africans”, with commanalities and difusions, is what really makes it into “joe Africa”, with no distinctions in cultureal identity”
Linda says:
BR what do you think the term “sub-Saharan Africa” does…can you differentiate between ethnic groups when you used the term? (rhetorical question)
As I said before, since you feel so strongly about the aesthetics and origin of African music, beats and meaning, then why don’t you just say “black Africa” or just “Africa” or better yet, why don’t you just name the particular Ethnic group you are referring to…
I try to show my respect by actually using the Ethnic groups name that they actually gave to themselves because when you say “Hausa” – I think west Africa, when you “Oromo”—I think east Africa…since I took the time to actually learn about the different ethnic groups and where they are geologically located –at least now, their respective ethnic cultures can be appreciated.
Show me a text from 100 years ago or better yet, before European colonialism / imperialism where Africans called themselves “sub Saharan” .. until then, To me, all you are doing is defending a white, western created word that has been draped over Africa.
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What Im going to do now is going to be long and drawn out, and, first , I am going to refer you to this site:
http://www.africanholocaust.net/news_ah/language%20new%20reality.htm
becuase this is the basic position expressed by most of the people arguing against me, but, expanded much more in depth than most of you here….and , Im going to proceed to lacerate it , to point out many holes and gaps that this type of logic brings to the table, whcih is again, mixing truth with a political agenda, in this case, a black Islamic Africa point of view with anti American bias…not that he doesnt have true points about colonialism and racism, but, it is severly lacking in any understadning of all the incredible youtubes I have linked together a simiar body of knowledge that came from below the Sahara and has incredible concepts that carry over in to today…that is totaly ignored by this person and I will show funditmental holes in his position
this will take many posts and answers, dont pay atention if you dont want to, Im doing it to show myself how people like this will take thier postion and load it with intellectualisms and scholarly knowledge but it is loaded with his personal bias…which means that , it doensnt matter how advanced your scholar information is, it can be loaded with your bias…just like chumpske
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yet there is a body of knowledge that did emanate from out of the center of Africa that links many differant cultures and ethinic groups together with simialr concepts that affect us today…and it was below the Sahara…by not ackowledging this body of knowledge and the people it comes from , it dismisses the value that it represents. and the link I brought in , defining group to group , what their culture was, is the proof
because it is culturual not racial…If Musa was going on the Haji, he was Islamic, and , Islam, changes the dynamic of the concepts that came from sub Sahara Africa
this has absolutly nothing to do with the points Im making, when it totlay has to do with intent
yet these people have absolutly nothing in their diologue that indicates a unity of concepts from a body of knowledge that is extremly quantifiable and measurable…it is totaly absent in their referances, which makes their fundamental premises weak and anemic and lacking in the full picture
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This is absolute bs on this persons part, the Nigerian woman brought in definitive proof that the Igbo language has roots of many of the languages that spread around the world, and, I have linked the Igbo by youtube to see their culture and it is linked to the body of language I have been describing and proving that emanated from below the Sahara
How can he mention the Tuareg and not mention the Dogon who are very linked with the culture of the Igbo, this is a serious decetion that this person gives because he is pushing the Islamic black African point of view with anti american bias… I keep saying that the part of this knowledge that went north with the Berbers and Gnawas, gets changed and watered down, its not the same…the concepts get watered down but the new cultures formed with interaction with Islamic culture or Arab culture, I note the differance, are valid in themselves, but THEY ARE NOT THE SAME, THE CONCEPTS GET ALTERED and weakoned from their original state and what they originaly meant
Islam is a defining factor, Islam changes the dynamic of this body of knowledge I am talking about, look at the examples brought in of the Islamic Africans who have retained some mixture of the traditional culture with the Islamic influences,and you see the women covered up, the dances are toned down, something is getting supressed.
Look at the youtube I brought in about Zanzibar and how it sais the traditional dances and drummng are being lost, exactly because of that…look at Mali now, with the tolerant form of Islam that allows the people to retain certain customs (but with restrictions based on the Islamic dynamic versus the body of knowledge I am talkling about . Then see what the stricter verion of Islam does, cutting off hands and banning music, they were dancing in the streets after the French kicked the stricter Islamic group out…Islam is a difining factor in how it affects the body of knowledge Im talking about…and, it is cultural…
”
Viewing these cultures from his standpoint truly blurs the fact that Mali also has people like the Dogon and others I have brought in in the past that directly relate it similar concepts to peolpe in the Congo , than to people of the Berbers and north of them…I see thought his bs more and more
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by all means lets define Islam as traditiona in Africa , but, then by all means lets define how Islam does change the dynamic of the body of knowledge that I am talking about….if these concepts mix with the dynamic Islam imposes on it, it becomes something else….Islam came from the north of the Sahara, this body of knowledge Im talking about emanated from the south of the Sahara.
”
I have two answers to this, first of all,the body of knowledge Im talking about ,isnt based on religious rites, but religious entities in the cultures use this power to integrate the rites each culture and ethinic group used…this force and knowledge is much bigger than the religous rites and ethnic expresions…it spans these cultures and ethnicities…it represents something else,
The second is, if he thinks some of the aspects picked out as AFrican spirituality is trivial, Id lke to see him explain how Condomble, Santera, Voodoo and other aspects of black sub Saharan Africa , were practiced from places extremly far apart, from differant colonisers who brought them to the Americas as slaves, yet, the rhythms , dance movements and the orixais worshipped, the act of letting go and being possesed , how did that happen? They didnt talk to each other to make up trivilisations…there is a simialr body of knowledge that can be connected with these cultural practices that spans over huge areas and ethnic differances…this just makes him a bag of hot air
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music drum dance is a more powerful way to understand the damage of the african holocaust
This is ridiculous since you can define a body of knowledge that came from below the Sahara
If we really examine the value of the body of knowledge that came from below the Sahara, on its real terms, the linguistic desciptions that the language limitations surly have, then extremly positive and uplifting things can be fosuced on…its intent that matters
But, these same academic circles are ignoring the cutural tie ins of a huge body of knowledge that comes from south of the Sahara…it just isnt in their diolougue or referance, its off their table, they cant seem to ackowledge this blatent reality
But, there is a body of knowledge, cultures , that can be tied linked together based on similar concepts and those concepts came from below the Sahara and the people happened to have darker skin and other similar properties. Everyone can refer to “Arab” culture and define its properties and the place it eminated from
yes it is really strange that with all the genetic research and human anthropology, that we cant agree there is a body of knowledge that came out of sub Sahara Africa that links many of the diversce cultures and ethnicities to similar concepts of how to perceive drum and dance and life
Oh yeah, but, it sure is telling , I mean you can twist the semantics anyway you want to
this guy just contradicts himself and then has a lame rationalisation…”black” is a term that was used to describe certain Africans
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the top opening sentance “language is a factor” should start with quotations, it is him saying it
Linda, “Africa ” itself is a Berber word , and I doubt the people below the Sahara even used that term…but the notion of below the Sahara is well represented in this 13th century Chinese map:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2446907.stm
Even the Chinese were mapping out the differances back then
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http://diglib1.amnh.org/galleries/maps/index.html
Early Western maps of AFrica, two of them mapping below the Sahara
Linda, what I am missing from your discription of these differant ethnic groups and languages you have described , is some kind of acknowledgement of a unified body of knowledge that connect similar concepts of these differant cultures and how it emanated from below the Sahara…and this unified body of knowledge is quantifiable and it affects us today in a big way, and with that in mind, knowing it came from below the Sahara, I just dont think we can discard “sub Sahara black Africa ” as a way to focus on it and define it, and destroy any racist notions of it…I dont buy into not well thought out political agendas like the guy arguing above, full of intellectual rationalisations to put his bias out on the subject…sure, he is mixing in a lot of truth, but , quite bluntly, racism and political strife from colonialism , is not a result of , or would not go away with the elimination of “sub Sahara Africa”…I think its better to start using the positive and upliftng way to use it to counter racism and the political agendas and rationalisations that try to argue away the use
this persons rationalisations dismiss some great body of knowledge of concepts and cultures , to satisfy his bias
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Language matters is always a classifer. I come from Chicago we tend to say we are going down to this state even if it is Wisconsin or Minnesota, why because in most Chicagoan minds Chicago is the center of the Mid-West. When then talk about standard midwestern we tend to think it means upper Chicagoan accent.
I remember when I started to hear Sub-Africa and it was definitely a racist slant. As in those backward SubAfrican states. Egypt, Marocco, you know good ole Northern Africa they had culture but if you asked any of my Classmates what countries were SubAfrica they wouldn’t have been able to name one because they didn’t know the indivisual African Countries. I love that Great Zimbabwe means Great House but you only had to look at the official white line of gone Rhodisia to see how they tried to block out black achievement. The same mindset that rifled all over the continent.
I am sorry to anyone who doesn’t understand that Sub, means lesser, Subject, Inferior, of lesser quality. If I were to put that prefix infront of “human” you’d understand the meaning right away. It maybe true that some don’t see it that way but English is a wicked language. Homophones abound and Sub sets itself up to be used in such a horrible way. You can say Tar Baby isn’t racist too because hey was Briar Rabbit told by blacks. Yet we know its dirty second meaning same for SubAfrica at least when I was in the States. I know because I as the only black person in my group would be asked in school, college, or even at social dinners why SubAfrica couldn’t get itself together even with all the money we give them. SubAfrica truely is a horrible place what do you think? In which I would say even after WWII the British chaffed on how aggressive the American government was on getting back the money it loaned. They had pet name for us how are countries who infrustucture been ruined going to pay back right away. When even the might British chaffed?
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In the same way now that The Bible Belt is coming to mean ignorant people who push religion into politics. It’s that Bible Belt that is causing the trouble. SubAfrica in the circlets I swim in means black hole, money pit, corruption a place where we give money and nothing ever seems to get better. Well that is my two cents on that got to turn the computer off the baby is sleeping and I sure don’t want face my wife for waking him.
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@ King of Trouble: I concur with your statement.
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Linda says,
BR, throughout all your posts and the last few especially, you basically just high-lited how incredibly Narissistic you are –
to the point that you actually believe that your personal bias and your “youtubes” links are the Only “valid” source and that the points of view from everyone else and the author of the article you critiqued are “irrelevent”…
Your points of view—focuses on a “musical” body of knowledge—because this is YOUR profession, this is what you do – this is what Africa means to YOU.
Why are you trying to project your concepts of what “communal spirit” should be – especially to African-descendants who share the communal gift of racism and are bombarded by Eurocentric viewpoints from birth.
And you expect acknowledgment of the “validity” of your POV because you choose to lump all these separate African ethnic groups and their cultures into one, big monolithic group based on links and similarities to their “musical unified body of knowledge”:
So therefore due to this “ unified body of knowledge” that came from below the Sahara– dark-skinned Africans should all be classified as the “United States of Black Africa” commonly known as “Sub Saharan Africa”
And I’m supposed to ignore what the REAL meaning behind the term “Sub-Saharan Africa” is and forget that this artificial division of the Continent was created by white European colonist/imperialist…. don’t think so, get real — I’m not into “one drop” rules of any kind.
the only thing I will acknowledge is that there SHOULD be some cultural similiarities considering that many groups of people were Nomadic and travelled and traded with each other all over the Continent.
Like I said, to me, these different African ethnic groups represent more than just Music – each group brought something different to the table (in areas such as medicine and science) and these contributions should be respected and recognized by the Eurocentric, western world.
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Linda says,
The Afri /Aourigha (ancient Berbers) are indigenous to the African continent, so if the the word “Africa”, originated with them, then the Continent was named by native Africans.
Based on what I’ve read, there are a few different view points as to the etymological origin of the word “Africa” – the Berbers (as you mentioned) is one; another is:
the word “Africa” may have originated from the languages out of Kush (Nubia) and Kemet/Ta Mery (ancient Egypt)
The words: “Afu-ra-ka and Afu-rait-kait” are words with multi-layered meaning, that when combined, refers to the collective identity of “the people” or African.
http://www.worldafropedia.com/afropedia/Afrika
and remember, many African languages like “Twi (Akan)” and “Yoruba (Nok)” are said to have originated from Kemet or rather, share similar root words.
The early Akans migrated from the north (Sahara) to occupy the forest and coastal areas of the west Africa – so, yes, the people below the Sahara had a designated name for the vast land they lived on.
Africa was also called “Libya” by the Greeks and they didn’t realize the land went beyond the Sahara.
I also read that the continent was called “Gondwana” by the early Mandé people.
There is a region in India called Gondwana, named after the Gondi people, who are Dravidians (and there are many theories about the origin of the Dravidians, such as they originated from east Africa)
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King of Trouble, Im from Chicago too, I cant help it if the circles you run around in have their limited racist view, I gave examples of high leval black Americans who broke down the concepts Im telling you…by the way, I said all those names passed down the concepts and some broke down the “sub Sahara African ” concept…
Linda, each time you comment on my statements you show you dont have the capacity to grasp what Im talking about…. I painstakingly brought in various papers by black sub Sahara Africans, that were in depth studies, extremly relevant , expecialy the Nigerian professor, who broke down language origins like you never have, and, not only did they use sub Sahara AFrica, they made a point to use that phrase , differentiating from the original theory by an Australian saying “South East Africa”…She is just plain more advanced on Africa than you are…and she chose to use the phrase…
I brought in various master drummers from various countries in AFrica who use the phrase…and you think its my ego? You better look at your ego , because its getting in the way of your vision
These people, who know more about Africa than you do, they know more about linguistics, they know more about African music, they know more about what is happening in their regions than you do and they chose to use the phrase , and , that doesnt deny other AFricans are saying it is a totaly bad phrase, like the guy above, but, lascerated his point of view and he lied about cultural aspects….Nobody is saying its suposed to be the “United States of Black Africa”..that is your own hangup about it…if that is what you get from what I have forcefully brought in as hard core evidance to what Im trying to get across, then, its like the musican I talked to on the phone the other day , who used to play with Olatunji, and I asked him to look at this thread, he laughed and said Im wasting my time, Im embarrassed to show high leval musicians Im trying to break down these concepts to people who dont have the capacity to really understand it…Ive said their are other angles to perceive, but, the evidence that I have brought in overwelmingly at the very least , counters a lock step political agenda that is blind to these uplifting aspects…and does show there are other ways people use that phrase that arnt racist at all
What I meant in the post about science and DNA etc, is not that it proves my point, it sais , if they are so profound in their depth of knowledge, how can they miss the obvious
Your problem is you have brought into a semantical political agenda, that hasnt been thought out, and only focuses on the bad intent of racists and media but doesnt focus on the many other positive and uplifting meanings that this phrase can be used in linguistics, music, dance, origins of religions, Jesus is Horace, did you know that?
You have decided to fall into lockstep , without examining all the aspects…just like a bunch of people fell into lockstep about Louis Armstrong
would you care to comment on that? I would like to hear what you have to say about political agendas , suposidly in favor of anti racism , but that do great damage to culture, sometimes irreparable damage , like with tap dancing…
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@ B.R.
It is a bit odd how you are so quick to see bias and political agendas everywhere but NOT in a term coined by white people about a place they are robbing and destroying.
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Hello B.R. nice to here from a fellow Chicagoan. I read most of your post not all of them I should have but I am telling you from someone who has been exposed to mostly white culture his whole life that many of those same whites from the 63rd area, through the Suburban outfields, up by the Colleges around Evanston and all throught out the city. I worked for Andersen Consulting when it was around and I worked for Rush Prudential Health Care Services, and many different profession but mainly white places of prestige in the city. While you think it is limited, I am not just talking about Chicago I went to a very expensive boarding school, I worked for Space Camp, I have worked for some pretty Elite places and this subject always comes up. Why because of Finance, Famine, and AIDs. It Why can’t the Sub (Saharan) African’s, and many times the Sahara part is left out, get their act together we send them a lot of money. I can understanding what you are saying and I am open to what you are saying but I am telling you from a guy who is not just talking about America but Australian’s and Brits I meet this is what I hear.
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@ B.R.
If concepts of music is how we divide the world and Islam makes “black” music into something else, then “sub-Saharan Africa” or “Black Africa” will not work: there are more Muslims SOUTH of the Sahara than north of it. The Sahel, the Horn of Africa and the coast to the south of it are all clearly sub-Saharan and all heavily Muslim.
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For me the best way to understand Africa is not by race or by some false Saharan dichotomy but by language families:
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@ B.R.
This is not true of me, African Holocaust or most of the others. In fact, you are pretty much the only one who thinks it boils down to intent mainly and not something wrong with the term itself. A point you seem to keep avoiding.
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Sub-Saharan African countries where most people are Muslim:
99.2% Mauritania
98.6% Somalia
98.3% Niger
97.4% Sudan
97.0% Djibouti
95.9% Senegal
95.3% The Gambia
92.4% Mali
84.2% Guinea
71.5% Sierra Leone
58.9% Burkina Faso
55.7% Chad
50.4% Nigeria
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Of ALL Muslims in Africa, 61% live in sub-Saharan Africa: there are more black Muslims than brown ones.
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King of Trouble, I was learning these concepts from people like Ahmad Jamals ex wife and her brother on the deep south side of Chicago…have you heard of Ahmad Jamal ? Do you have any idea of his value ?
Culture is everything in this argument….Culture is everything involved with racism..
How many times have we heard that there are no races?
So, what do you all think the real reason that the Atlantic slave trade and Arab slave trade decided to ship more than 20 million slaves, from mostly sub Sahara black Africa, to their lands ? Those numbers are huge, a majority being brought to slavery in the 17 and 18 hundreds,not a long time ago…
Its totaly cultural/financial…these slave traders, used their rationalisations, usualy but not exclusivly tied in with their religions, to deem the people in mostly sub Sahara Africa as culturaly inferior…its after the desician to make them slaves that the West comes up with its race theories, and, made their judgements, of various cultures and their inferiority, like the arguments in the Spanish courts about the natives in the Americas…there is already plenty of proof of Arab racism
Where, the religions of all these slave traders, could spread down peacefully into Africa, the fundimental tenants of these religions say that if you dont practice their religion, you are an infidel, so , even if you have a tolerant Islam, or Chritianity, like the recent book signing of Bishop Macedo’s evangelical sect , in South Africa, the fundimental concepts of the body of knowledge Im talking about, get , by the very least, tolerated, watered down, dismissed, or at the worst, buried, destroyed or criticised…basicly because of cultural differances
I brought in two differant links about exactly that, the traditional cultures are being forgotten and lost, drowned out by commonalities and difusions….
Underneath all the racism is cultural prejudice and bias…the people who brought you this body of knowledge Im talking about , are the ones who were brought en mass to the Americas, exactly because of their culture, deemed to be inferior, and, everything possible was done to destroy this cultural knowledge…even though it ended up dominating all the places it was brought to…racism because a person is black, is actualy an abstract manifestation of the original rationalisation that this culture was inferior …so now,even if a black individual doesnt even practice this culture, he can be a victom of this racism…which we have all agreed , races dont exist…its cultural
Most all the media racist implictions are cultural…either they alude to white culture as being superior , even if that white culture is stealing black culture , or, they take black culture and make it an abheration and sell it in a really distorted form, either a much simpler and watered down version, or, comercialising the cartoonish versions of things like thug rap and pass that off as black culture…
Then you get the paper from the guy above , I lascerated, who really makes it a race / politcal agenda, saying it was USA racism and capatism making things the way they are in Africa, not even mentioning that it was capatilism versus communism and their competing for resources in those African areas that led to so much destruction and now the Al Qu.eda sharia law, being a point of conflicts in places like Mali….when, we can in fact see that Che Guevera in the Congo and Fidel’s Cuba in 17 countries in AFrica , are actualy racist also…which I have proved…as well as Yassim Qutb , the architect that the fundimentalist Islamic groups who think its ok to violently impliment sharia law, is a racist also…
Which makes it a political agenda…that many of you are lock stepping in on with out even examining that these agendas dont really get at racsim and its real reasons of cultural prejudice
Everyone on here, can speak very well on the intellectual aspects of the black American civil rights movement , the words and theories and history of that era are on the tip of everyone’s lips…most everyone is extremly well read on it and university educated
Yet, we see laments about self esteem issues, about feeling at odds with aspects in white society, which are really cultural aspects and white society trying to continualy diminish black culture even though seemingly to embrace it, we see hair issues, dating issues, brought down by political agendas from the past…
Because the truth is, past some threads that try to address it, that Abagond has put out here, besides the flocking to threads basicly about pop hits…in depth discusion about black Afro diasporic culture is in short supply here…and this is a blog from a black American, but, really looking at black American culture, is anemic , not Abagonds fault, but I think he has bought into some political agendas… racism, as a political agenda , which has been very well defined by the civil rights movement, is very well discussed. But, the understanding of the depth and origins and dynamics of black American culture, are left in the waiting room somewhere, the civil rights movement did not bring black Afro diasporic culture along with it…proven in the political agendas of putting down Louis Armstrong and tap dancing
We see lots of in depth information, on here, about European history, Islamic nuances, Arab culture and practices, Indian dynamics with the British, insights on Western thought, most everyone here is well read on Western education….but, we cant get out of the starting blocks trying to talk about black American jazz, black Ameican dance, origins of black American slang (hint, so much of it is in jazz)…let alone that people have squat knowledge of Afro Brazilian culture, something that is flowing so hard right now in Brazil carnival, even though it has all the cultural racist/cultural trappings as the USA, and Brazil is the largest population of Afro descendants except Nigeria…guess where the USA stands on that….but, mostly we just talk about the pop hits from the 60’s on…How many people on here can recognise the cascara pattern in Dogon drumming, Senagal drumming, Ghana drumming and Kikuyu drumming?That is some heavy sh.t, that blows my mind when I see it and brings me to a very humble state to recognise where this body of knowldedge comes from
Really understanding black American culture and its origins and its power and strength, is certainly one of the ways to fight racism from the inside,in a big way for black Americans
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Also B.R. while I am not in the Windy City my heart will always be there but as you know the Windy City can mean that cold cruel Canadian wind that blows through or that we Chicagoans a braggards, and blow hearts who love the sound of our own voice. It depends on who is saying. Talk to a Cheesehead and we are definitly F.I.Bs who spend our lives listening to ourselves.
I have no doubt that in those clusters of countries the contribution to the human advancement is magnificent. I do not think for a moment that those people did have great achievement. What I am saying to you is that the vast majority of people I meet, and yes I travelled all over Europe with back pack studying art because I use to do that, think of the Sub Saharan area as a black hole. It is not and there are quite a few Japanese companies quietly making profit down there and prefer the area.
I know you can understand that when I say my extended family comes from the West Side and in the 80’s I use to see tons of machines that had been fixed by what was nigger-rigged. What I say was black people with brains fixing problems that had come their way. Today we say think out of the box but it is a eupehmism for what they use to say. (Sorry to use the n word I personally hate it but there is no way I could reference it I guess I could say n-word rigged.
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Abagond, we talk about the Civil War, and north versus south, but we all know there were states farther north that wanted slavery, there were states west that had conflicts based on it, we all know Indiana is as racist as the South with its KKK ties
but we dont get all analytical and technical about it
I have totaly addressed exactly what you said about Muslims in sub Sahara Africa…it is cultural…no matter how tolerant Islam or Christianity is, there still will be some watering down of the concepts from the body of knowledge Im talking about, and this body of knowledge came from south of the Sahara, Muslis and Islam came from north of the Sahara…does that mean anything to you?
I cant or dont want to change that, what people chose to worship and beleive, what I say is, we better get a good look and understadning of these cultures from this body of knowledge Im talkling about, because, before we know it , they will disapear
And I see evidence everyday of my life of Afro diasporic culture being diminished, dismissed, buried or destroyied …right were I live, right where you live, and where the Nigerian profesoor lives
and right on this blog, denial of this body of knowledge and its importance to the world
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King of Trouble, you saw machines getting fixed and I was on the west side being exposed to some really high leval players of jazz music who totaly blew my mind and opened up my head to concepts and culture that is barley understood by normal everyday society…they do have Fred Anderson day now, one of my early early mentors on avant guarde jazz…but, the average Chicagoan has no idea what Fred stands for
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“abagond
@ B.R
It is a bit odd how you are so quick to see bias and political agendas everywhere but NOT in a term coined by white people about a place they are robbing and destroying.”
Linda says,
Thank you, Abagond.
I’m done with BR because he has long since gone past ridiculousness and has no ability to recognize that he’s talking in circles and bringing in all kinds of topics that have Nothing to do with the term “Sub-Sahara Africa” and the meaning behind the word.
I try to take him seriously when it comes to black issues but it’s hard because he keeps bringing in the “my best friends are black” argument
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@ B.R.
You did not “lacerate” African Holocaust. For the most part you did to him or her what you have done to the rest of us:
1. Pretty much miss the point.
2. Dismiss disagreements as “bias”, “political agenda” and even being “anti-American”.
3. Point out Black People Who Agree With Me (Appeal to Melanin).
4. Make it all about drumming.
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@ B.R.
Linda said:
If I say “X is racist” there will always be black people who disagree with me. There is no hive mind. So pointing this out proves nothing.
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@ B.R.
The difference between the sub-Saharan Africa you are talking about and what most people mean by that term is 13 countries or 258 million people. That is more people than in all of Brazil, way more people than in Russia, equal to 39 American states the size of Indiana. It covers three historically important regions: the Sahel, the Horn of Africa and the Swahili coast.
To call that difference “technical” is extremely dismissive. JUST the sort of racist dismissiveness that “sub-Saharan Africa” supports, as I argued in the post. You prove my point better than I ever could.
The people in the Sahel, etc, are JUST AS “BLACK” as anyone else. To say their music is “watered down” and not truly sub-Saharan African is chauvinistic, TOTALLY NOT COOL. But YOU as a WHITE person, OF COURSE, know what is TRULY black.
You are talking about a PART of Africa. You are not even talking about all of Black Africa or sub-Saharan Africa but just a part of it.
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Then it gets down to credibility , doesnt it , Abagond? So, what is your crediblity on African culture compared to a master African musician? Or to a Nigerian woman talking about linguistics of the Igbo and how it influences all those other languages. They arnt my friends…forget about my freinds…it was you who brought in the example of the white guy with the black wife, what has my wife got to do with this discusion ? A very weak argument on your part . I dont need my wife , who is more immersed in AFro diasporic culture than anyone on this blog, or my freinds to see through the holes in African Holocaust…. I pointed out flaw after flaw, I have proved every point I have made bringing in facts and proof and you simply dismiss me, and join in on one of the silliest criticisms I hear from all sides on this blog…”just makes it drumming, its only about music, …”
I mean wtf, Abagond, Im a one year college drop out, after going to play ball at the weakest college in the universe and spraining my ankle ending my pro career, the worst speller on here, and I can devastate these weak arguments because they are building their points on half truths and lies and creating a weak foundation
And what credibility does African Holocaust have over these master African drummers? Or the depth of the Nigerian professor and her paper on linguistics ?I see through his bs, I will never follow his way of thinking…I will never follow half @ssed political agendas that put out only half of the truth to fit their agenda and leave out the rest of the story
What has the Nigerian woman have to do with druming? You call it bringing in someone with melanin , but, wait a minute, I didnt bring in just anyone with melanin…I brought in a very detailed , in depth peice of work with astounding information that no one on here could bring in that much depth about it…just nebulous referances to tribesthat infuenced Egypt, with no indication of what they brought to the table and what they look like…
African Holocause has distorted the culture of the body of knowlege Ive been talking about and gave misinformation about Mali…that I have proved blatently…If you think its ok to go over cold war histroy in Africa and not mention the Soviet Union by way of Cuba , and Che and Fidel, I really have to ask you, what kind of history are you trying to portray?
I brought in youtubes that blatently state that the traditional drum dance in places like Zanzibar is disapearing…but that doesnt mean anything to you?…and African Holocaust ? because he doesnt state anything about it , as well as trivialises what cultures in America retained their sub Sahara African, non Islamic concepts, with such force that you have Candomble, Santeria, and Voodo all having very similar cerimonies of their African heritage , yet they know nothing about each other…what does he have to say about that?
Linda, you didnt even know what a “harem” was in an argument and you plow ahead like you are an expert…where do you get off calling me ridiculous? I asked you what you think about Loius Armstrong getting thrown under a bus by political agendas…why cant you go into some kind of insight to Louis Armstrong, what he represented in society at that time, what kind of obstacls he had to face and what he brought to the table in American culture…and why in gawds name was he deemed unworthy of the political agendas at that time being formed on what was racist ?
The question I have to you, Abagond, that Linda wont answer, where do you stand on a political agenda that was ready to throw Louis Armstrong under the bus and call him an uncle Tom? Is that fine with you? Is any slap dang semantical phrase that comes down the pike fair game to call racist with out really thinking it out? Without thinking how many qualified people all of a sudden become irrelevant because they are caught up in an agenda that really isnt thinking itself through…
For all the facts, the proof without a doubt I have brought to link a similarity of concepts that are unique to sub Sahara Africa and prove a body of knowledge exixts that came out of there that affects us into today, for all the varieties of papers I brought in with various uplifting subjects about sub Sahara AFrica by AFricans, that is one flipant shallow description of my point of view you have given…I dont respect it at all
And, I cant follow you down the road on lock step agreement on this subject, and you should note , i have agreed on much you have stated on racism and white atitudes in the past
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I keep telling you its culture and not race…
When did I ever say all of black Africa thinks the same way or has the same culture?…Ill look up the Sahel, if they are Islamic, Ill tell you exactly why they might not have the same aproach…I have always mentioned the Gnawa and Berebers as having some of the concepts but not others in their culture
When I said watered down, it doesnt invalidate their culture, it just sais it isnt the same as the body of knowledge Im talking about
All the American Afro diasporic cultures have watered down the aproaches and added new things like harmony with chord changes with progresions , they arnt the same as the basic fundimentals of the drum dance cultures I have linked
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Gees ,I look it up, the term is partly sub Sahara and I have described perfectly what is the dynamic with countries that have larger Islamic populations, and the traditional druming and dancing gets theatened to be lost…I described what is happening in Mali and Zanzibar
the Sahel includes both types of cultures, the culture from the body of knowledge Im talking about and the Islamic influecned cultrues and has a lot of the tolerant Islam
Yes,the Islamic cultures that mix the traditional drum dance I have talked abut are watered down from the original concept…what is so hard to understand about that? I have discussed it and brought in links about it….you arnt getting what Im saying
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I dont get what is so hard about understanding that the Islamic influences of cultures came from the North of the Sahara and the cocepts of the body of knowledge Im talking about come from below the Sahara…of course they had co existing and commonalities and difusions…where have I ever said differant?Im talking about peeling back the commonalities to really look at and understand this body of knowledge that came from sub Sahara Africa…how can you ever really understand these concepts if you dont look at them for what they are? I still think there are analogies that fit with the Civil War and descibing something but obviously there are not exact definitions but its obvious what is implied
for those who keep saying sub is negative, I dont get you
subconcience/ subliminal/ subway/subtext/ give me a break
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“BR,
Linda, you didnt even know what a “harem” was in an argument and you plow ahead like you are an expert…where do you get off calling me ridiculous?”
Linda says,
BR, you are now a full-fledged member of the BullSh’t crew because you and I NEVER had a discussion where I said “I did not know what a “harem” was” so…besides being a narcissist, you are now making things up.
You need to take Several seats and sit the F’ck down. I am no longer interested in discussing this topic with you.
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B.R. I am not questioning your creditials in Ahmad Jamals is a little before my time I would have only being crawling out of 8th grade in the 1990’s. I was of course into blues but my first impression of Jazz was Coltraine and at 8 it was like looking at an abstract painting I just couldn’t understand. I am not saying anything about cultural aspects. What I am saying Sub from the latins meaning.
I consider myself Black but that has a lot of negative connotations to the word. As in Darkness, Evil, void, and few other choice words. I am just saying where I’ve been who I have talked to and I have been to quite a few places because I have itchy feet this is usually what I get. I have friends althrough the Tanzania government and I get quite educated by Africans here about Africa because yes I am a product of the country and area I grew up in. I am black, I grew up in white middle America and when they mention Sub it isn’t usually said with anything good. Most of the time I get oh (insert my name here) but of course you are American you’re lucky.
My fellow Chicagoan I will say this and then I won’t say anymore for a while. I would love to hear from your experience which sounds great especially in music. I have worked within the music industry myself but I had very few good experience with it. The one thing I have had to learn is when I was sinking in quick sand and losing ground. I think if we go on with this we will be forest apart with bad feelings and that isn’t how I want it to go. So, I will not add anymore logs to this fire and hopefully we will be able to talk music one day. Something I think we both share an enjoyment with.
My friend Jerome in 4th grade was the only black person who would talk to me, he was hugely a popular guy. He was the first person who ever told me jokes where black people were heroes. I like Jerome a lot I didn’t have black friends because the majority of blacks I met didn’t like my voice. Jerome and I got into an arguement stupid kids stuff but I couldn’t let it go because he’d stole my pencil and had shaved my name off of it. I would have given him the damn pencil but I kept arguing with him. I couldn’t let it go because I knew it was right and he wouldn’t admit it. I knew my position was righteous then one day Jerome just stopped talking to me, a month later he was not in school he was gone. Once again I was Oreo, I had stepped into quicksand and drown what was a pencil over friendship? I still ask myself that. Was it really worth losing the black kid who talked to me. So this is me learning from that mistake I will not argue anymore on this. Talk to you on another thread or post and hopefully we can find some good footing.
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Linda “I have nothing to say about Harems because I don’t know anything about harems”
looks like there is plenty of room here on the bs crew… lmaoalab
call me “fukay” all you want you are just being “teimoso”
Yeah, King of Trouble, it would be great to talk about music and where you grew up in Chicago, I actualy did a lot of work and learning on the west side too, The Safari Room, White Elephant , and various other places…
You know what , kot, its not that I have to be so right, its that I have to fight these battles a lot…fighting for some kind of recognition and ackowledgement of Afro Diasporic culture…
Now the thing is, I cant say what its like to be black , and face racism as a black person in racist society…I can only watch on the outside and understand…especialy for my family, who are real to me, not a blog, which is great to have discusions on, but, it isnt my real life , and my extendes family is as multi cultural as anyone on here, so its not like Im much differant than the families of people pegging me as white and therefor it disqualifies my opinion
But, I can and have immersed myself in Afro Diasporic culture , and , the same way it would be strange of me, someone who is not well read on Western liturature, to question something someone like Abagond would say about Western literature, which he has read much more than me , its strange that I cant have insights to Afro Diasporic culture, what it is, what it feels like to express it, the same way Wynton Marsalis can go and play trumpet with symphonies knows a lot more about what is involved with playing in a symphony orchestra than I do, even though Ive read parts in a pit for dance concerts…Even though I have been exposed to classical music from my parents, i still would be naive to think that my opinion on Western literature or classical music is any where near Abagond’s knowledge or Wynton Marsalis on Western culture…
So, I dont get at all that the African Holocaust really does know more about sub Sahara black Afro diasporic culture than I do, I dont think he can really speak to it or do it justice, he sure is diminishing what it is..he can speak about what Islam is, in great detail and Arab culture
But, he referances Mali several times trying to use it as an example of culture closer to North Africa, when, the Dogon and other youtubes I have brought in on other threads of Mali , are much more related to what happened below the Sahara…He is dead wrong and because I knew the truth about it, I have to question his judgement..
i am no expert on what the political situation in Africa is, that is not my point or argument with the AFrican Holocaust, its when he mentions the USA and capatilism and how bad it is for Africa but wont mention that Che was there with Fidel sending troops to 17 cuntries and the Soviet Union giving money for violent revolutions that I know he has an agenda about it. I never said the USA was good for Africa, but there is a true picture not the one sided one…
If it rubs people the wrong way, I have to deal with that, but, I wont not tell the realities I know from hard core experiance,I never was a lockstepper and I didnt learn what Im tallking about in a University… its hard core life experiance , I guarentee you most white jazz students dont know what Im talking about at all
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So,BR, you decide to reach back into another post /topic and interpret my words to mean “I don’t know WHAT a “harem” is” because I stated “I have nothing to say about Harems because I don’t know anything about harems”
Your sly comment is trying to suggest that I don’t know the actual “meaning” of the word “harem” and you are trying to be insulting, (for which I can understand since I did call you ridiculous in this post—tit for tat, right) but since Bulanik responded to my comments, I can conclude that my English and context was pretty clear.
BR, my answer implied that I know as much about “how harems actually functioned” as you do—which is “not much” – because you don’t know sh’t about harems either – all you have is your own opinions – which you try to present as facts.
Bulanik came up with the Most solid information about that time period and Harems, information I did not possess and information you had no interest in listening to because it went against everything you were trying to say….
That’s why I typically start my sentences with “To me” or “In my opinion” – unlike you, I don’t take my own opinions or POV as the “gospel” or “as facts” – regardless of how many youtubes or articles I present
Why can’t you stick to the current topic at hand and actually address someone’s POV as it was posed – instead, you ignore what is said and continue talking to yourself.
Having a conversation with you is like “watching a dog chase its own tail”, I truly do not enjoy fighting with you because all it’s doing is creating bad feelings, which was not my intent in discussing the term “Sub-Saharan Africa”
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@ B.R.
Just because a black person says or does something does not mean it is not racist. That is an asinine argument.
That would mean there are no cringeworthy stereotypes in Tyler Perry films or hip hop videos. It would mean blackface is not racist, nor the n-word, skin lightening, colourism and a ton of other things.
And no, a PhD or musical knowledge, however Afro-diasporic, is not some kind of magic fairy dust. If anything it is the opposite: blacks who are diasporic or who have high levels of Western education can have huge issues with internalized racism.
Melanin is not some kind of secret force field against racism. If only life were that simple.
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@ B.R.
Musical talent does not excuse you from acting like a decent human being. People have the right to call him out on his behaviour.
The point of this post is not to say that everyone who uses the word is a bad, evil person. This is not some kind of witch hunt. Racism is not just the Klan or Uncle Toms. Racist thinking is so everyday and so everywhere that people stop seeing it. It becomes “normal”. The “Everyone does it so it must be all right” kind of thing. This word is a good example. It does not rise to the level of, say, the n-word or racial profiling, but it still shapes our thinking in a way that supports a white supremacist world view.
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@ B.R.
I get that the Sahel is a meeting of cultures from the south and north. But that only proves that neither race nor the Sahara is such an important divide that we need words like “sub-Saharan Africa”.
If I wrote posts about “Negro Africa” or “Yellow Asia” people would think that I am some throwback white racist from the 1950s or 1930s. And rightfully so. Yet “sub-Saharan Africa” is no different. It is just the polite way to say “Negro Africa”. Your great grandchildren will agree with me.
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Ok B.R., when you are ready will talk a little music. I spent a lot time in different Blue’s houses. I know Jazz but not as well as I should. Since I believe this is a different topic I won’t approach it on this thread. I have been on the other side of the music world the corporate one; I wished with all my soul that I could play an instrutment but I cannot.
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@ Bulanik
Wow! I was reading about the Tabula Rogeriana last night and am thinking of doing a post on it!
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@ Bulanik
And, yeah, Orientalism. The post on that is WAY overdue.
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@ Bulanik
Right, and think if most of the recognized experts on the Netherlands were in fact Mozambican what that would mean for most people’s understanding of the Netherlands!!! Or if they all gave that part of the world a strange name that they came up with, like sub-Mediterranean Eurasia.
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@ Bulanik
In fact it was not sub-Saharan Africa that was “cut off from the world” – just ask anyone in Timbuktu or Kilwa in 1300 – but EUROPE that was cut off from sub-Saharan Africa.
Likewise, everyone likes to talk about how the West or the Arabs or even the Egyptians brought civilization to sub-Saharan Africa – BUT NOT how Asia and Africa brought civilization to Europe!!!
Or: Timbuktu is “due to Arab contact” but London is never “due to Roman contact”. Even though London to this day writes in a Roman script and gets half its words directly or indirectly from the Roman language. Words like “script”, “language”, “indirectly” and even “contact” itself!
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@ Bulanik
My last four comments were addressed to you – even though at first some of them said “@ B.R.” because I have got so used to writing that.
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Linda, I wont do any more tit for tats with you, ok….
Abagond, exactly what my grandchildren will learn is what Im talking about…and African Holocaust doesnt cover what is really important about below the Sahara…
My son is immersed deeply in Afro diasporic culture , as a performer, dancer, singer and percusionist…watching him discover how the concepts and principles work is wonderful…how he can start to get the pivot points in the grooves, understand the high voices and low voices and where they are placed…and exactly why these things work the way they do in the concepts brought to us by the people below the Sahara , and , why they are differant from the concepts coming from north of the Sahara and Europe and the native Americans…how they affect dance , how , while you find some grooves in north Africa that come from the South, you find this whole other differant concept of how to aproach rhythm and melody up there…to execute the below the Sahara Afro diasporic grooves, he has to be able to understand what it is, how to perceive it in Brazil grooves , for example and when it starts getting watered down , and why…
I have been quite clear on the mixtures, they become something else, big band jazz with its charts in 5 staff line, and kicks that start to take on more importance than the groove, do start to get away from the original concepts of the below Sahara , just as any of these concepts mixed with Arab concepts or Islamic restrictions in dress and movement…even if you can find some youtubes with Islamic Africans , dancing with some hip movements, it pales in comparison with the pure body of knowledge I have reffered to..
No, my son will not learn this from African Holocaust, he will learn it from a master AFrican drummer , who can define these differances…He will learn it from going into the wiki link I brought in about “music and dance from sub Sahara AFrica”, and then going meticulously into each group of people they mention and checking it with youtubes of those groups to really understand exactly the culture and the way the people look , and the differances with the ones who have Arab influence, Islamic influence, or migrations that came in later that didnt have the original concepts…
Look, Abagond, my referance to music is a narrow look at what the total dynamic of Africa is, but, it is an extremly powerful , in depth, serious link to the past, and , definitive example of advanced concepts in the people who brought us this body of knowledge that came out below the Sahara, several thousands of years ago before other cultures had even developed
If people everywhere, cant peel back the layers of commonalities and difusions and mixtures to look at exactly what this body of knowledge is and represents, they will never really get it and they absolutly dont now…these discusions are all Arab, Islamic, European, Chinese, Indian, Western thinking , and that is the way it is all over the “logic world” now, nobody can really go into depth about the advanced concepts that touched into turning off the thinking brain and feeling intuition and spirit, from these people, and the mathamatical genius involved in putting the rhythm concepts together …African Holocaust can go into depth about Islam, and Arab influences, but, he absolutly boggled it about cultures in Mali…I did address the cultures in Sahel and in Zanzibar, that is mostly muslim and how the traditional dances and drumming are being lost….AFrican Holocaust will tell you all about Arab culture and Islam but after that , what is it? A bunch of differant cultures and ethnicities…with absoltly no indication that these differant cultures below the Sahara can be tied together with similar concepts in how they put together their expresions of dance and music ?…which just points out that there could be a lot more involved than dance and music…like understanding stars and seasons , and 26 thousand year shifts in constelation rotations etc
this is all below the Sahara knowledge, with connections that cant be denied…that AFrican Holocaust doesnt elude to at all…
I still dont agree about your ascessment about Louis Armstrong, the Nigerian Professor, and how African master drummers deal with explaining their knowledge and the other papers by Africans were very uplifting also…there was nothing like black face, internal racism involved, n word justifications…they were all things that can counter in a big way false racist stereotypes of sub Sahara Africa , and agendas by people like African Holocaust…funny you cant get political agendas, there have been great ones and horrible ones, and the horrible ones carry over for years and leave their false stink all over even after they are proved ridiculous, like with Louis Armstrong…glad my son can hear the real version from Wynton Marsalis…
But, Ive made my points, very well, including a Chinese map of sub Sahara Africa, and, I will keep my eye on this subject in the world in the future and see where it goes…Ill remember what you are saying, just dont forget what Im saying, in case you see that brought out in the world more in the next 20 years…just like we found out how truly valuable Louis Armstrong is…
Legion, you just go ahead and keep reading your moan chumpski to get a one sided view of the world…Im so glad to have a balanced look, like seeing the bus burnings where I live going on and seeing Farc did all that before in their territory, and influenced this organised crime terror now, where I live mostly white people are getting arrested , from orders coming from the big heads inside prison, this isnt happening because of racism and poverty, its organised crime, hooked up with Farc, who chumpski calls freedom fighters…you go ahead and beleive him
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@Bulanik
“I get my information about Turkey from Turks, in Turkey, 99% of whom are Muslim, tragically.”
As I said before, I’m well aware of the fact that Turks are muslim. Albania is majority islam, but is still European.
“it’s obvious you feel you know “a lot” about Turkey”
I never said or purported to know even a little about Turkey. You made that statement yourself…this conversation stems from Turkey’s historical association with the Ottoman empire and its role in N. Africa, which as I informed you, was indeed referred to as the Turkish Empire or simply Turkey for many years…you’re the one who turned this into a conversation about Turkish politics and why you didn’t agree with the opinion that it was politically aligned with Europe more than W. Asia.
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let me tell you Africa needs to look to its past the glory of ancient egypt 3000 year legacy nubia ancient ghana great zimbabwe rameses 2 and excel to greter heights
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arabs had never enslaved africans made up and written by europeans who were enslaved by aabs and black moorsin north africa 1.5 millon europeans were enslaved pr as high as 3 million
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morroccon / pharoh banned for using sock puppets
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@ abagond, I think my English has failed me I don’t understand the term sock puppet. Probably I don’t need to know but is it a term or a technical thing?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_%28Internet%29
googled it and there you go
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Yet , there are a lot of black Africans from below the Sahara , that use “sub Sahara Africa” to describe a variety of subjects, none having anything to do with “sub human” at all in any way, in fact , are very uplifting ways of using the term…
I cant back African Holocaust, who elaborates this position much more than anyone on this blog is, he proves he doesnt really understand cultures in Africa, he certainly boggles Mali, mentions it about 3 or 4 times as an example of this blur of cultures, but , I have brought proof, there are blatent examples of the cultures I have talked about that come from below the Sahara, that are differant frm the cultures informed by Islam in Mali…what you do find, is a form of Islam that can live side by side with these cultures and a form of Islam that came in that is violently oposed to the cultures I am talking about
He doesnt get it, I cant back his opinion about that specific aspect of using “sub Sahara Africa” because it has some flaws in it, while other points he makes are good ones…I dont say the guy is totaly wrong about the paper I brought in, just flawed on that aspect
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Im just not sure that the abcence of “sub Sahara Africa” in these writers opinions means that it is the negative phrase its being catagorised on here
Im perplexed why people who perceive the white press establishment or racist who do use the phrase as a racist context, dont attack them and poke holes in their logic , instead of then making anyone who uses this phrase is wrong, or, buying into a racist mind set
It just lumps a whole bunch of people together who have nothing to do with using the phrase as racist, and, as a matter of fact have used it in a very uplifting and educational context in many differant subjects
I dont think attacking colonialism or supporting Pan Africanism, makes that phrase a negative one(only if the colonialist of anti pan Africanist would use it in a negative context), since there are so many black Africans below the Sahara who have used it in a positive light…for sure I have brought in various examples
Its like a whole lot of people who dont use it in a negative context are implicated because some people do use it in a racist context
I would attack them, not the phrase
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If the people who are using a phrase that others have used positivly in a varitey of subjects, in a racist mannor, they absolutly deserve to be called on it
I see on here people refering all the time to the aids epidemic and how reporters referred to the situation with that phrase….and , you actualy see racists on here attacking black Africans and their culture or their attack is ignorance of the great body of knowledge that does exist from the people and cultures below the Sahara
but, I seem to remember from way back referances to sub Sahara Africa , that werent negative…and back in the 50’s , at a young age I was making the cultural distinctions about what is happening in North Africa compared to below the Sahara
Im just not convinced about making this phrase a racist one…Ok, maybe in 20 years, I will think differant, maybe not, , but, I just havent seen the information that convinces me that the phrase is automaticlly a negative context…and maybe in 20 years, the phrase sub Sahara Africa may be a non issue, like Louis Armstong being an uncle tom
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Well , I think the vacuum is coming from the people calling the phrase racist…they just didnt think it through all the way
African Holocaust definitly didnt…why did he screw up Mali?…really, his definitions are much more elaborated about this argument, and I can find flaws in it, its easy to find flaws in people’s thinking about it dont even go into as much depth as he did
I just think its another not well thought out idea, like calling Louis Armstrong an uncle tom or Jim Crow laws…it just brings hubris down the line and lumps a lot of people together to lable them…in the case of sub Sahara Africa, a lot of people using it in positive contexts about a lot of subjects
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@Bulanik
“I was the one who turned this convo into something about Turkish politics?
Yes, you went off on a tangent about Turkish politics. I only used the word “politically” to make a point, not to diverge from the subject like you.
“but that is because I get my mine from a European perspective, gleaned whilst IN Turkey and also FROM Turks…. Perhaps that kind of info is irksome to your pov, idk.”
No it’s not irksome to me. I don’t get mad like many of you when people have opposing OPINIONS. Facts are facts and opinions are just opinions.
“Also, bringing in Albania tells us nothing about Turkey.”
You totally missed the point on that one. It was an example of a country with Islamic roots in Europe to counter your suggestion that Turkey’s islamic roots made it non-European.
If you think Turkey is non-European, that’s totally fine. I just don’t agree with you for many reasons. Again, I think Europe is just a region of Western Asia–so it’s all the same to me.
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It definitly is not some kind of love or attachment , its a phrase that has been used in a positive and uplifting way, and, I have done nothing but that, use it in a positive and uplifting way…Ive already said I have used other suggestions by commenters on here, Ill use any phrase I can that will get over these concepts I have talked about, like a great body of knowledge that originated and eminated out of the center / west/east and more in the south than in the north, but, the traces are up there, too, but, it didnt come down from the north…
Its very important to note this cultural bind of the people who brought us this body of knowledge, and, not blurr it with the other cultures and commonalities that did come in…where as I can see lots of room for pan African unity on various poitical issues, on this cultural aspect, to negate this body of knowledge is to deny its existance and its importance
and “ancient Africans” is a good term, but, this body of knowledge exists right now in present forms in the people in the Afro diaspora
For me the arguments against the phrase is one of these things that is like deciding Louis Armstrong is an uncle tom…a kind of logic that just bowls over any one that didnt use the phrase in a negative way, and I have brought in a lot of valid examples…Ive seen this play out before and it really doesnt do any good…and in the case of a marvelous art like tap dancing, it never recovered…
The arguments presented here and by the African Holocoust, arnt strong enough to go tell a master black African drummer from below the Sahara , to stop using the phrase because it is racist…or a Nigerian linguistics professor who did yeoman work in defining origins of various languages in Igbo language
I fully support anyone making a personal desician to not use the phrase…that is what is the right thing…I dont apreciete implying if Im using the word in a positive light that it is racist…there is NO general black concensus that it is a racist phrase, hades, there was a concensus by black scholors that Fidel’s Cuba is racist…but, I see that doesnt matter among some posters here.
I dont like words like “miscegenation” or “arab spring”, but, I dont expect or demand anyone to not use them…I just wont use them
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I don’t have time to read the comments today, but I will just say this (I checked this after reading the “Eurocentric vocabulary” thread):
I don’t see how “BLACK AFRICA” can be considered as “less racist” than Sub-Saharan African when “black” directly and only refers to “race”…
What is racist is the fact that races were invented and therefore this type of thinking induced racial separatism in the vision of the African continent.
The fact that the Sahara separates is another, a geographic one, which doesn’t hinder the circulation of people of all skin colors (probably the widest range in the world… with some light-skinned blue-eyed red-haired Berbers and very dark-skinned nomadic people and others in between, like Peul ) across the north of the continent.
So ANY vocabulary that separates Africa in two parts is racist !
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On this topic, what bothers me more is the constant and continued attempt by Europeans (many of them, especially scholars and so-called “Egyptologists”) to make us ALL believe that Egypt is not African.
I imagine that the “segregating terms” like “sub-Saharan Africa” or “black Africa” (Africans certainly didn’t invent that one), were part of the major scheme of trying to detach Egypt for there and make it float somewhere in the Mediterranean, making it more “European” and “white” in the process.
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“from there” ^
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Cornilia, I have brought in various examples of Africans that self described themselves as black and and have used the term “Sub Sahara Africa”,and a couple of posters from Africa came in and self described themselves as black.
Why do people like you make a blatent false statement like it is the truth?
I dont think you grasp at all the concept Im talking about where there is a definable , quantable culture that evolved in ancient Africa that came from below the Sahara, and can be perceived in various cultures and ethnicities, from the Pygmies to the Igbo , to the KIkuyu, to the Dogon, from the Congo, Uganda, Ruanda, Ghana, Nigeria, most all the countries below the Sahara with some influences above the Sahara, but these concepts came from below the Sahara, that are tied together by these cultural concepts, with differant takes on it in each region and ethnicity, but quantifiable similarity that seperates it from other concepts that came from North of the Sahara and outside of Africa
Its obvious that lots of people absolutly dont get this, and yet, the real reality of racism comes from cultural dismissal, destruction and burying that culture coming from these various ethnic groups and deeming them inferior enough to practice large scale slavery…that is the root of how Judeo, Christian and Muslim religions , in their fundamental essences, allowed the Arab and Atlantic slave trade to exist…a total feeling of cultural superiority, backed by religious dogma that just cant recognise, even into today , the real cultural genius and value of the people enslaved from below the Sahara
And, I get tired repeating myself
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And, Ok, everyone disagreeing with me on this, can we just agree to disagree?
I dont want to change anyone’s thinking on here, Im just firm in what I have learned for me and for defining things that are in my everyday life and have profound meaning for me, but, maybe not mean anything to anyone arguing here…Im happey to be in my corner on this and you all can feel like you would like to on it…
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Uh ho, so B.R., I am a liar (“false statement”) when I actually QUOTE Africans saying this ?
First of all, I don’t see where you got the impression that what I am saying is against what you are saying… What did I say that was different ? Except about the use of the word “black” to define people ?
And then,
Since when did Africans decide they were “black” ? Never. Europeans invented the term. That’s one thing.
Ambroise Kom (among others, but I know him well because I studied Mongo Beti and met him and Ambroise Kom is a friend of my husband’s uncle) avoids referring to Africans as black. What is that problem with that ? Really ? I mean, so, we all have to obey the big white man because he one day decided that he was white and the others were what he decided they were ?
There are other African scholars and thinkers who think the same as I do. Many. They write articles, they explain why, and it so happens that it is for the same reasons as mine. They don’t see why on earth they *should* be obeying the self-defined “white man’s” injunction to call themselves “black”. They have other definitions of themselves that do not refer to European concepts and BS!
Let them choose theirs. They define themselves by their people, their region, their language, whatever tells them they are WHO they are. “black is “what” they are, the object in the eye of the other.
When Africans (that includes the diaspora to make things clear) call themselves “black”, they have reasons to do so. Either because they were taught they are “black”, which is the case of most (just as Euro- are taught they are “white”, when they are). Or because they affirm/state something by doing so.
Many young Africans (and Afro-Europeans) do so today because it relates them to African-Americans. It gives them a “positivity” (it’s more “cool” than being African) that seems to radiate from African-American culture, at least outside of the US. It is often in relation to hip-hop. In France, since the early 1990s, people actually use the ENGLISH “black” inside French sentences to take about dark-skinned Afro-descendants.
And please, B.R. you don’t have to repeat yourself, because I can tell you I’m continue to think the way I think and nobody is going to impose the racist BS on me. This is the ONE thing I have been reflecting on for many years, and I know EXACTLY what I think about it.
Racial thinking is BS. Period.
Then we can discuss the REASONS why some stick to it, because for instance (and I have said this several times here) African-Americans can hardly escape the racial conceptualization of the society they live in. They HAVE TO oppose whiteness with blackness because they live in one of the most racist societies in the world.
African don’t. Because they are Africans. They don’t have to oppose whiteness in their African context all the time and every day. They have to when they come in contact with it. They are trying to invent new ways. One of them is ignoring whiteness and “whites”.
B.R., what makes you think that you know better than me and can allow yourself to call me a liar when all I’m doing is quoting African people I know personally or have read, studied, exchanged with and met ?
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“Cornlia,
On this topic, what bothers me more is the constant and continued attempt by Europeans (many of them, especially scholars and so-called “Egyptologists”) to make us ALL believe that Egypt is not African.”
Linda says,
To be fair, the Egyptians themselves don’t believe they are African — the ones I went to school with in Germany called themselves “Arabs” and considers Egypt part of the Middle East.
The north Africans and other African people (regardless of region) seem to use the term “African” when referring to black Africans. I don’t know for sure but it seems to be a term traditionally used by the average person.
Look at the conflict in Mali — the Malians referred to the Tauregs as “Maghrebs or Arabs”. In the Caribbean, we would call these people “mixed-race” and Americans would call them “light-skinned black people”
From just perusing African news articles, I’ve seen the term “Maghreb /Arab” and “African” used as a distinguisher of the “races” by people from all regions
that’s why to me, the term “sub-Saharan African” is unnecessary because even the black people “north” of the Sahel are called “Africans” in reference to them being black, even in their own countries like Libya.
Look at Mauritania, the black Africans are indigenous to that Saharan region and they are still referred to as “Africans” based on their skin colour and ethnicity.
What is sincerely sad about Mauritania, is that this region was part of the Ghana Empire and has always been ruled by black Africans — that they are enslaved in their own indigenous land where their ancestors ruled is crazy!
African scholars and some journalists might use the term “sub-Saharan” but remember, they are trained in western ideology and are typically speaking to a broader or western audience.
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The racism that the Arabs hold towards the Africans is very real and tragic — the continent doesn’t need any more dividers than it already has.
Africans pick up a lot of things from the America or Europe — such as the women using chemical relaxers and skin bleach…so too, have they picked up the term “sub-Saharan”…. these are foreign concepts brought to the African people.
I was reading an article by an activist who wants to see the Continent united, he wrote:
“We all (African Leaders) must recognize that we can only make progress if North, South, East, Central and West Africa come together as one, act together as one and speak with one voice.
Africans must remember that it was our disunity in the past that enabled Europe to exploit our continent for centuries and even today it is being exploited by the so called super powers to our own disadvantage.
We must fight this divide and rule policies if we are ever going to make it as a continent and as a people. Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya and Egypt can never be called Europe and will never be accepted as Europeans no matter what French Nicolas Sarkozy says and the earlier the leaders in North Africa realise it the better.”
http://www.modernghana.com/news/256692/1/africa-yes-we-can-but-only-if-we-are-united.html
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Linda, I also know (B.R. won’t like that – I’m jokin’ B.R.) several dark-skinned Africans (Cameroonian, Senegalese and Malian) who had very disturbing racist experiences in Morocco and Algeria.
As of Egypt and the rest of the North, they are former Arab colonies, the result of conquest, so it is no real surprise that the invaders’ descendants would adopt an attitude that puts down the descendants of the former autochtones.
The Berbers of Algeria (again, those I know and have spoken with about this) can respond very aggressively to the arrogant behavior of some Arabs who still consider them as a conquered people, a little like Euro-Americans consider Natives. But the Berbers of Algeria are not skinned, they are rather light-skinned and sometimes even look European, to the point that some (again, my experience, story told by a former student) get harassed by youth of North-African origins in “their” district, only for the latter to realize that the victim speaks Arabic and is “one of them”…
Racism IS stupid. And violent. And has been here for too long but is not dead yet… far from that.
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“BR,
I dont think you grasp at all the concept Im talking about where there is a definable , quantable culture that evolved in ancient Africa that came from below the Sahara, and can be perceived in various cultures and ethnicities, from the Pygmies to the Igbo , to the KIkuyu, to the Dogon, from the Congo, Uganda, Ruanda, Ghana, Nigeria, most all the countries below the Sahara with some influences above the Sahara, but these concepts came from below the Sahara”
Linda says,
BR, I concur, lets agree to disagree.
My only question to you is: are you sure these “definable, quantable cultures” developed from below the Sahara since there was a lot of back and forth migration of different African ethnicities.
Abagond wrote about it:
“The Egyptians and Nubians say they came from the south, the West Africans from the east and the Bantus say they came from the north.”
The Bantus was a majority group that migrated from top-down (north to south)
Even though modern day “Eurocentrists” (I call them racists) like to pretend the Bantus originated from west Africa, they originated and migrated from north-East Africa.
The Eurocentrist like to say it was “Ethiopia” but many western scholars stand by Libya/Egypt (and that could be wrong too since the Romans called north Africa “Libya or Egypt)
But the point is that, the Bantus originated from the Sahara region (north of the Sahel) and spread northwest and south where they encountered other groups.
So the question would be, BR: who influenced who? The migrating northerners going south or the indigenous central, east, and southern groups going north.
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Linda’s last comment is essential: until we can agree on terms we have to learn a lot. All kinds of words refer to different things to different people, and unless we take the time (if we can) to know more about the various manipulative schemes that MEAN to confuse us all (and oppose and divide us ALL), I think we should talk only about what we know. Which I am trying to do, as well as most people who comment here, starting with Abagond. This is why I like this place.
And therefore, since we all come here with our own experience, reflexion and thoughts, we can only agree sometimes and disagree sometimes, until we find common ground (or not).
What racists want, for sure, is for us all to disagree, and that’s why they maintain and sustain their own vision of things, while trying to make us believe it’s “the truth”. That’s why anyone telling me what he/she is saying is “the truth”, I never trust, because they all follow the same thinking path.
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Cornilia, its you who just blatently say “Africans dont refer to themselves as black..” …Im saying that is false , that some people from African do refer to themselves as “black”…I didnt say that plenty of other Africans dont , I say that some do, and some African scholars do use the term “sub Sahara Africa”..so you cant just make a blatent statement like Africans dont use that term…It doesnt matter where they got it from, they do use it…
And, white people in America didnt use “black” as much as “colored”, “negro”, and slaves actualy referred to themselves as black or African, I brought in proof of that before…Malcolm X solidified using black as a way for black Americans to self identify themselves…you kind of come in saying these statements like they are blatent fact when they are not
Linda, I was just looking at Bantu migration maps a week or so ago and everything I could see is they came from East Africa below the Sahara…the Sahel has lots of examples of the cultural developements Im talking about…but what is most important , Linda, is not where the migrations came from, its where the cultural concepts Im talking about originated, and that indicates people like the Igbo, and the Pygmies, two ethnicly and geneticly very differant type of people , yet, who share a very similar cultural concept in their expresions, and the many many other groups that are below the Sahara that share these similar concepts , and many concepts in north Africa dont have these concepts, while some do (Berbers and Gnawa)
Linda, you really have to be willing to look at the wiki sub sahara music and dance link I brought in, look at the individual groups and tribes they state, get youtube and take their names and search with “traditional drum dance” , and go to each one of them and notice how much similar their concepts are in their expresion.
Where you can find some examples in north African youtubes, its definitly not nearly with the amount that came from the concepts that originated from below the Sahara, now who do you think really originated these concepts?
If you really think these concepts came from the north, lets have a contest how many north African , in and above the Sahara , youtubes you can find that use the concepts I have talked about, and Ill just use a couple of countries from below the Sahara , and, for every one from the north, I can bring in 10 or more from below the Sahara
Linda, Im not really sure if you understand what Im talking about with these concepts, they are blatent to me, but if you dont know what they really mean, you wont perceive it at all
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“Cornlia,
As of Egypt and the rest of the North, they are former Arab colonies, the result of conquest, so it is no real surprise that the invaders’ descendants would adopt an attitude that puts down the descendants of the former autochtones”
Linda says,
So true. They remind me of my mestizo family members, who like to pretend they don’t have African blood in their veins. The north Africans seem to practice the same reverse “one drop rule” like in Central America — one drop of European / Native blood (or in their case Arab) is enough to make you non-black.
It’s strange how those “Arabs” like to persecute and put down the indigenous groups like the Berbers, the Tauregs and Saharawi (2 groups that are a mixture of African (black), Berber, and Arab) when they themselves, are not “100%” Arab.
Even though I am no fan of Muammar Gaddafi, he did support pan-Africanism in his own way – and his views were not popular or shared by the “Arab” north Africans (as we saw during Libya’s “Arab Spring”).
Dahoman X posted something very interesting that Gaddafi said:
“We have one religion and one identity, and do not accept something called racial ethnicity. There are no races in Africa, but a single African race. Even those who came from somewhere else and settled in Africa have become Africans at the end of the day. Even the Arabs who came to North Africa are now Africans in spite of themselves.”
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Linda, I think political thinking and commonalities is one thing and cultural thinking is another, I think they can mutualy exist and that may be the reason for some disagreements here…these things do mutualy exist and mean differant things
I brought in a Nigeran professor who did an extremly detailed study of how Igbo language originates words that you can find blatently in Egyption, Hebrew, Arabic, Indian and English etc
Please look at the youtube I brought in of Igbo culture..its obvious that if language that has origins in Igbo, like the Egyption words Horace, Osirius,with referances to the sun and star formations etc some cornerstones to Jewish, Christian, Muslim faiths, you can see that these linguistic origins came from below the Sahara, and their drum dance culture , as seen in the youtube, works the same way…these concepts originated below the Sahara and fanned out from there
I can look at varius below the Sahara African youtubes that do have influences from the north, they use Arab instruments, melodies, the dances have been modified to fit into Islamic traditions, you can pick out and define the Arab influences and how they hook up with the concepts below the Sahara Im talking about, the way in the Ameicas, Euro harmonies are on top of the Afro diasporic foundations.
The trick is to peel back the influences that came after the original concepts were developed to define exactly what those original concepts were
that is of extreme interest to me, what were those original ancient below the Sahara concepts that quantifiably define this cultural genius and that you can plainly see today , even with many new commanalities that also define contemporary African culture….But, Im not refferring to contemporary Africa or political Africa, Im speaking about a form of expresion that came from a very very long time ago that reaches all the way down into the present in a very powerful way that affects conemporary
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“B. R.,
Linda, Im not really sure if you understand what Im talking about with these concepts, they are blatent to me, but if you dont know what they really mean, you wont perceive it at all”
Linda says,
BR, I completely understand and accept that these musical concepts that you are talking about came from different ethnic groups from the west, central, and south Africa.
but I don’t want to get bogged down in discussing music because my point all along is that “music” alone cannot be used to justify using the term “sub-Saharan” — the concept of food is also a major aspect of African cultures.
Many concepts have come out of Africa in math and science too but these concepts have not been linked to “black Africans” … why not? why use music and not science.
Music has been used by whites/Europeans as a “cultural trait” that lends itself to fit “racial” stereotypes — by just bringing up “drumming” and “Africa” in one sentence, gives the average western / American reader an image of a black African person and dancing.
The inhabitants of the Continent themselves have already figured out how to divide themselves. If you say “African man” to a Libyan and a Kenyan, they will both understand that you are referring to a black man — it’s not necessary to drop “sub-Saharan” , a western created word, into the mix.
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“BR,
I brought in a Nigeran professor who did an extremly detailed study of how Igbo language originates words that you can find blatently in Egyption, Hebrew, Arabic, Indian and English etc”
Linda says,
and this is the main reason why Africa shouldn’t be divided by the Sahel because many black African groups originated out of the north…they originated out of Egypt and migrated west. They brought their language and culture west, from the north, and assimilated into the groups in the west.
So once again, what’s the point of artificially dividing the continent when it shares a vast history.
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BR,
many African languages like “Twi (Akan)” and “Yoruba (Nok)” are said to have originated from the Nile region and share similar root words with other ethnic groups of the North and East.
The early Akans migrated from the north (Sahara) to occupy the forest and coastal areas of the west Africa.
As I continue to say, the Greeks, Italiens, and Balkans are not called “sub-Europeans”, so the African continent shouldn’t be dishonored with this label — they share an entwined history.
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but Linda, African scholars do use the word to discuss varieties of subjects, and master African drummers use it describe exactly what they are talking about to get their concepts across
Drum dance is so important to sub Sahara black Africa its stated over and over again…I cant help it if some ignorant white American or European doesnt get these concepts and has some stereotype bouncing around in their head, there are people who are deeply immersed in these concepts and there has to be a way to discuss them in that context..there is no way you can dismiss it when talking about Afro diasporic culture
I get you are saying you dont want to talk about it because it doesnt fit into the political context. Im saying they are mutualy existing, one doesnt cancel out the other…your statement about not wanting to use the phrase is your opinion and has to be measured against other African professors on varieties of subjects , not just music and some master drummers (Im not saying all) who use it to describe things that get their points across
Its not that sub Sahara Africans have drum dance, lots of cultures have drum dance, its the way they use it, and that they were the first to use these concepts and they come from a long long time ago…and, there are immense implications of deep insights to mathamatics, tuning into intuition, turning off the thinking brain , how to get in touch with the spirit and soul etc, that are unique to these concepts and are much deeper than the surface definition of drum dance
Cornlia
“I don’t agree with “Sub-Saharan Africa” being one of those. Many African scholars use it because they don’t want to include “race” in a geographic term: “black Africa”. For instance Ambroise Kom”
I mean this is in essence one of the things Ive been trying to say
I didnt call you a liar, I said, that your statement that Africans dont describe themselves that way is false , because there have been blatent examples brought in by me and actual African posters that use the term to self describe “black”
Listen, I dont go around introducing
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African music is wonderful but black Americans, Caribbeans, and other African descendants NEED to learn about their African ancestors (just like we are forced to learn about our European ancestors)
my fellow Caribbean, professor, Ivan Van Sertima, RIP on how Africa’s identity has been defined by white/Europeans and discusses African achievements.
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“BR,
but Linda, African scholars do use the word to discuss varieties of subjects, and master African drummers use it describe exactly what they are talking about to get their concepts across”
Linda says,
These African scholars are western-educated and speaking to a western audience, so that point means nothing.
It’s not only about politics because stereotypes and racism goes beyond politics. This is why I am not interested in using “music” as a descriptor of black Africans.
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Linda, the Nigerian professor makes a very detailed in depth paper, extremly well documented, and the point is that these words originated from the Igbo
I beleive what she is saying for a lot of reasons, but, at the very least, its an extremly in depth report, unless you have something more in depth, I am going with her description..i really wish you could discuss it with her , because she is the one making a very strong case and research about it
as far back as 4000 years ago, there are descriptions in Egypt of being fascinated by black pygmies and their dancing….that indicates that that pygmie, and feel free to look at any of the youtubes I have brought in that shows their drum dance culture, was showing something the Egyptions had not seen…this culture and concepts came from below the Sahara…to hear an implication that it might have come from the north, to anyone who has spent time immersed in these concepts, rings false
The things you keep sliding into the north east are more what I describe as east Africa
you dont want to discuss music because your focus is on the political aspects, and, if you dont like using the term i have no objection at all what so ever if you dont use it, what I wont accept is if I use that term in the context of discussing culture and where it came from , that that term is somehow racist
this term is no where on the agenda of black people and the Afro diasporic as some term that is racist and like the n word…it is not..its is strictly a matter of opinion now , with plenty of evidance on both sides, nothing is set in stone about it
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Im making the point that culture is the real basis for racism
You dont know these scholars and you dont know these master drummers, I dont think you can make a statement about what they really mean and why
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“BR,
Linda, the Nigerian professor makes a very detailed in depth paper, extremly well documented, and the point is that these words originated from the Igbo”
BR, I am not sure what you are trying to say, which word originated with the Igbo? are you saying that the word “sub-Saharan” originated with the Igbo?
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“B. R.
Im making the point that culture is the real basis for racism
You dont know these scholars and you dont know these master drummers, I dont think you can make a statement about what they really mean and why”
Linda says,
I don’t need to know them because I am not using them to prove any kind of point…you are.
Hip Hop singers call each other n’ggers, and I don’t think they represent black American culture… they just happen to be black American.
The scholar and drummers you are talking about just happen to be African and cannot speak for all Africans.
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I should add though because of stereotypes and racism, many people view Hip Hop artists as the spokesmen for black American culture; when in reality, they are just representing a certain aspect of black American culture — a fraction, not the whole….
RB singers, jazz musicians and many other genres represent black America’s musical culture as well…. but white Americans don’t associate saggy pants with tap dancing.
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Im watching your youtube…Linda, where does anything I say negate what he is saying? What Im saying only compliments what he is saying
If I am saying that the culture and concepts Im talking about, are dealing with advanced mathamatical principals, that it opens up insights into intuition and turning off the thinking brain, and puts one more in touch with their soul, then it really indicates that I feel there was incredible human genius involved and that these were the first advanced steps that mankind was taking, and they are only the gateway to the total picture , and were the advanced steps that led to all the other advancements humans have made after…because they all depended on what went down before to make the next steps .
If you look at many quantum physics concepts and the repeating nature of fractals and the Rosenbit fingerprint of god, these concepts are an organic inturitive expresion of some of these concepts
By the way , the Nigerian professor’s paper was a recent paper, so I beleive it represents new insights
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Okay B.R., let’s close this argument that is leading us nowhere:
“so you cant just make a blatent statement like Africans dont use that term…It doesnt matter where they got it from, they do use it…”
I didn’t “blatently” say ALL Africans don’t use the word “black” to refer to themselves, I said many and among them scholars and thinkers.
It DOES matter where they got it from if it’s from the racists ! It does A LOT !
Apart from that:
YOU DON’T READ what people write !
You said:
I said this: “Then we can discuss the REASONS why some stick to it, because for instance (and I have said this several times here) African-Americans can hardly escape the racial conceptualization of the society they live in. They HAVE TO oppose whiteness with blackness because they live in one of the most racist societies in the world.”
You don’t read what people write. Please do so before commenting. Thank you. That will spare you “repetition”.
About that quote just above: “black or African” is not the same. One is the racial label Africans were applied as soon as they crossed the visual path of Europeans who viewed themselves as “white”.
African refers to their geographical origin as defined by Europeans too, but it has “less” of a socio-manipulative aspect. THEY probably didn’t know they were “African”. They were “the people” or region they originated from.
“negro” is the Spanish for “black”. “colored” is “not white” These are simply lexical evolutions for the same thing in time: “race”.
Malcolm X opposed whiteness “right in its face”, without fear and directly. As I said, he “had to”, because there was no other choice. White supremacy is perverse trap that can eventually lead those who fight it to find themselves using the same paradigms in reverse. Malcolm X didn’t. He was very lucid, strong and clear, and he was not racist. He was reacting to racism in the most straightforward way. Melanin theory thinkers are taking the wrong path, imho. They believe in race, he believed it had to stop. By any means necessary. “Blackness” is still necessary. Because whiteness is still there. Do you understand what I am saying now ?
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I could hardly equate a Nigerian linguistics professor with the rappers use of words…I brought in a variety of African professors using the phrase in a variety of uses , all positive…there is no comparison
words like “manu” came from Igbo, words that talk about “osirius” , these are the people who came up with those concepts first relating to the sun
Kwamla brought in information about civilisations in lower east Africa who had built a huge complex of walls for what they think is gold mining, and it was from 35 thousand years bc to maybe 60 thousand years bc
Im saying certain things were developing in mankinds steps forward , before anywhere else below the Sahara….that continued below the Sahara even after the migrations out of Africa
the youtubes I have brought in of all these areas in Africa below the Sahara, with al the varying gene pools, and differant cultures, tied together by very similar concepts just sais so much , it is just mind blowing…forget about what Im saying, if you look at the youtubes , it is much more powerful than any words
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Cornlia, yes I know black and AFrican are differant, I proved that there were slaves writing letters , who refferred to them selves as both black and African…if they wrote english , its obvious that they got the terms in the process of learning english, or they were 2nd or third generation in America and spoke english from when they learned to speak
Im not saying races exist, Im saying trying to impose semantical dos and donts actualy just gums up discusion…unless its something like the n word and even then, using the rappers example, its still up for discusion..but I certainly know no white person should be using that word
But, I beleive if something is super offensive, it should be taken into consideration , Im a person who have always hated jokes that made fun of any minority , but, not just a whole lot of words and slow up discusions being word police, if its like that, lets not discuss anything…i got words i dont like either, miscegenation, arab spring etc but I really dont intend to get in the middle of internet discusions to red card people about it
I remember many times you coming in about “black” , and when it just doesnt really take, you blame “American thinking”…I dont make rules about what is correct or not, go ahead and not use any phrases you think are wrong, but, I think making big issues out of it and ready to lable someone, pull the red card on their arguments …I dont know
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“BR,
watching your youtube…Linda, where does anything I say negate what he is saying? What Im saying only compliments what he is saying”
Linda says,
BR, you and I are saying many similar things…our biggest difference is that you believe it’s OK to separate Africans into groups based on their race and not their ethnic groups because that’s what the word “sub-Saharan” does…it distinguishes north Africans as “white/causasian” and “sub-Saharan” into “black” …which is a false representation of the Continent and distorts its history.
The North is intrinsically tied to the rest of the Continent, as you demonstrate by discussing how certain north African words and western Africans share similar root words (You do realize that the Igbos are made up of various people, some who came from the Nile region; and that the Igbos, as an ethnic group, became united later than many other ethnic groups)
many concepts and cultural traditions developed from ALL regions of Africa that are indigenous to the continent and represents the people… there does not need to be a designated word like “sub Saharan” to describe any concept from central or south Africa because the word “African” does just that.
Once again, the same way that DMX doesn’t represent black American culture, your African scholar does not hold the last word on why Africa should be divided into north or sub — the kool aide is passed around in Africa the same way it is here in north America.
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B.R. Please, stop the “let’s not discuss anything” thing.
This is not a school playground.
This is a blog that is concerned with racism. If my trying to understand what racial vocabulary does to us all is a problem, then I don’t understand what you are doing here.
Do I have to pledge allegiance to racial thinkers to be included in your vision of things ?
I am not “coming about black”, I’m coming about black and white and yellow and red, about “race”, B.R. If you think it’s okay to continue to refer to people as “races” for ever and ever, that’s your opinion. My opinion is that it has been going on for too long and that we have to discuss “race” before it is high time we did.
From the very beginning of racial thinking, people have been rejecting the idea. They didn’t win the political and lexical, therefore ideological fight. Does this mean we have to give in to the racist thinking ? NO.
You know what you are doing ? You are telling me to speak in racial terms when I have NEVER done so. WTH ?! Why on earth should I start now ?
I know very well what I am doing. It’s not about “correct” or “not correct”. It’s about: do I understand how this world works and do I want to change the things that make people’s lives complicated.
Where did I “red card” anyone ? Did I forbid you from saying anything ? Come on now. What is it that bothers you ?
I try to do my part. Let me do it. If you don’t like it, I don’t mind. I prefer to have have people think it’s stupid or crazy, or “wrong” as you put it (which is kinda surprising) or whatever, than to be a racist.
I am actually beginning to ignore people who “are afraid to not use racial terms” because it’s a waste of time.
Peace let me think what I think, think what you think and we’ll be fine.
I used “sub-saharian” because I don’t use “black”. I think it’s ridiculous to “racialize” continent. What exactly is the problem with that ?
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“Cornelia,
I used “sub-saharian” because I don’t use “black”. I think it’s ridiculous to “racialize” continent. What exactly is the problem with that”
Linda says,
But that is exactly what the word “sub-Saharan” means…it means “black”‘
It was designed to represent north Africa vs everyone else, “white” Arabs vs “black” Africans
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mandelbrolt fingerprint of god Zn+1=Zn2+c (the two above the +)
yeah I butchered that one with “rosembit”, really , i still think i misspelled it, but, the reality of what Im implying is way out of the box, and you have to fasten your seatbelt to really get it…even the written figure above looks like a design for an afro diasporic beat
Ive said it a lot, pollyrhythms/ cross rhythms / reapeating back onto themselves, repeated grooves, syncopated, simplicity, using simple call responce (looping back) concepts to create incredable musics
and , I just saw a documentary that breaks down quantum physics and the fractals concepts like , they used these exact words, I wrote them down franticly as they went by
“looping back(could be my exact words for a groove)”, “simple rules , repeating over and over””self similarity””simple rules creat complex systems (Gingerbread Boy/ Miles Smiles)”
these ancient concepts are nothing less than organic intuitive expresions of what quantam physics and fractals and discoveries of intuition and how its ruling over the thinking brain, are coming out now in modern science, math and whatever else…those ancient concepts are telling us about the universe around us and inside of us
by all means they should be studied on their own terms and if they are mixed with other cultures, we can peel back the layers to discover the origins of those ancient concepts
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Linda, the word “sub-saharan” means “under the Sahara”. Not “black”.
Now, I get what you’re saying, which is what Abagond meant: it’s a way to say it without saying it. Because racists have this way around thing.
As far as I am concerned I use it as a geographical descriptor of origin. I know Africa is a continent and that peoples on it have always interacted. So on my part it doesn’t mean “black” and it doesn’t mean “separate”.
Three years ago , my son had a history/geography school in France that stated bluntly that there is a “white” Africa in the north and a “black” Africa in the south, with a map that represented it with the two “colors”… We went to see the teacher and ask him if he was going to teach that part the way it appeared in the book, segregating Africa and directly teaching racism to our children. He said no, that he didn’t agree with it and didn’t teach it that way.
I maintain that from my point of view we MUST get rid of the racist vocabulary, starting with the obvious one (because otherwise we are giving racism a free path and pass to continue teaching itself through its words), and I appreciate Abagond taking his time to sort out the hidden ways racists try to continue to teach all our children racism without looking like it.
I think that sub-Saharan is a strictly geographical term that racists use to go around things.
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“Cornelia,
I think that sub-Saharan is a strictly geographical term that racists use to go around things”
Linda says,
yes, the direct translation does refer to geography but semantically, it’s not used that way and that’s the problem.
When westerners say the words “Andeans” or “Balkans”, they are not describing 2/3rds of the south American or European continent — they are specifically referring to an east or west geological location — fractions of the land mass.
the term “Sub-Sahara” is way too easy as a descriptor word and lets the ignorant off the hook.
Its way too easy for many of people living in America or Europe to envision Africa as a 2-part continent divided into “north and the rest” — instead of them learning about the other land masses that actually shapes the continent and it’s people by region.
(and ignorance in the west is all too rampant –recently Americans were confusing Chechnya with the Czech Republic)
and as you just mentioned, its the Eurocentric anthropologist and race realist who try to use “geography” to rationalize this words existence but we know they are using the word to mean “black”
“Sub-Saharan” is a white western word used as a racial designation. If it was really only a geographical descriptor, then white south Africans would also be called “sub-Saharan” but they are not.
but I do understand You and BR and your reasons for thinking the word has some sort of validity but I don’t like white European created words that are draped across other cultures — that’s been the norm now for far too long.
Look how native Americans for the longest time have and still are called “Indians” — Indigenous people need to assert who they are and try to shed some of the outside influences and concepts of themselves.
I just don’t see it’s relevance as a geographic descriptor because it’s creation by white westerners was to divide the continent into black vs white, so they could justify claiming north African achievements.
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Linda, you said
As far as I am concerned they are. I don’t imagine how they could say otherwise since this is geographically the case.
There are quite a few “white” South Africans who do call and see themselves as Africans, aren’t there ? And I know several dark-skinned South Africans (including people classified as “colored” because they have multiple origins including Asian) who see nothing wrong with that, because they are Africans by birth and generation after generation (as long as Americans are Americans, for instance, or North African Arabs are North Africans)
The Sahara does exist, it is a specific part of Africa because it is a desert (which is not the case of the rest of Africa contrary to what a lot of people think), and there are parts of Africa in it and on both sides of it (see I don’t say “north” and “south” of it because this could be interpreted as “Western” vision of the world…), so personally I will continue to use it but explain what I mean.
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“Cornlia
As far as I am concerned they are. I don’t imagine how they could say otherwise since this is geographically the case.”
Linda says,
why not, white south-Africans should be able to call themselves “Africans” if they want … and in respect to that then, when they were in control, they should have been placed in the “sub-Saharan ” category based on location but they weren’t — they were exempt.
“Prior to the formal restoration of African majority government in 1994, South Africa was never designated ‘sub-Sahara Africa’, unlike the rest of the 13 African-led states in southern Africa — it was either termed ‘white South Africa’ or the ‘South Africa sub-continent’ But soon after the triumph of the African freedom movement there, South Africa became ‘sub-Sahara Africa’ in the quickly adjusted schema of this representation. What happened suddenly to South Africa’s geography for it to be so differently classified?”
http://www.nairaland.com/988660/what-sub-saharan-africa-exactly
The geographical position of the Sahara Desert includes Niger, Mali, Chad, Sudan, and Mauritania — all these countries are classified as “sub-Saharan” Africa — is that geographically honest or even logical?
http://saharadesert10s.blogspot.com/2012/12/the-sahara-desert.html
Only in white western world does this division make sense since it’s a racial divider, not a geographical one or then Niger, Mali, and Chad would be a part of North Africa based on their location.
Like I said, I get your point about using the word and you shouldn’t have to explain yourself…you are entitled to your opinion.
But keep in mind, every time you use it, no matter how well-meaning, you are furthering the white racists’ agenda.
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Click to access 2.pdf
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When you understand what Im talking about, Egypt doesnt really even matter, people can bicker over that all they want, there was very deep culture and genius rolling below the Sahara…it came from there and fanned out all over Africa…and has affected the whole world in a big way
I also , when Im talking culturaly , I say “sub Sahara black Africa” , to make sure that it refers to the people who are not white or Asian
The Sahel is where you have the mixtures of the Arab influences with the cultures that were there before the Arab influence came….African Holocaust doesnt distinguish this differance, he tries to make it seem that it is all mixed, but it is not, there are blatent examples of the cultures Im talking about in Mali and the cultures influenced by the Arabs
Linda, these cultures Im talking about, developed way before the Arabs got there, your map shows that Mali and Niger and the Sahel is not desert back then,and its this cultural differance that Im interested in and how below the Sahara is where it started…
Kwamla, your link doesnt come up, but, know that I already brought in a map from China way before this German guy, and, it was of sub Sahara Africa…they were thinking of it also, and this German guy must have made his expresions in German, it wasnt English, but, you can speak it in Spanish and Portuguese also and any Western language is going to not be adaquate and loaded with implications of racism and superiority
this is not in any way trying to say the Arab influences were less valuable, it is saying you really have to seperate those later influences that came in to really understand the force and importance about the cultures that came before
And, seriously, the importance of the cultures that came before is exactly what gets lost in the discusion…and that is as bad as being racist…the dissmissal , burying and destroying of those cultures is what racism is based on…our societies have no way come to grips with the value of the ancient culltures of Africa and how they come with great depth and power all the way into today…but its not power based on force, and, its not a genius based on lavish constructions, the constructions are inside the soul
Abagond mocked me for comparing the Sahel to the Mason Dixon line, but it is a great example, you have the KKK and southern style racism all the way up in Indiana…but the Mason Dixon line is an arbatrary line that defined these differant cultures and ideologies
Linda, lets agree to disagree, again,and I disagree that it is buying into white racism, there are white racists who use the phrase in a derrogatory racist mannor, and , I use it to destroy their logic between their eyes…its intent as far as Im concerned.
I mean the bottom line, I dont like anyone refering to people below the Sahara as inferior in any way…and we know they mean people who are “black”…if anything, by throwing back the phrase they use to put black people down, and making it show that black Africans have contributed to humanity in the most extraordinary way, they are going to have no doubt about what I am talking about…
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“dissmisal , burying destroying”, Im not saying anyone in this discusion is doing that, Im saying the African Holocaust is burying the culture if he doesnt make the distinctions, just like Gadaffi’s statement about pan Africanism…it speaks a lot to a political agenda, which is fine in a political context…and I think African Holocaust makes very good points on a political tip , I hope people will get that I mean that…but, the cultural part is getting buried and slurred over
And, I do support anyone on here not liking the phrase when used in a racist context and calling out white racists who use it with bad intent, I just dont like blanketing many people including myself, who use it with the idea of pointing out good and positive things
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Linda, I didn’t know South Africa wasn’t “officially” included until 1994… that is kinda hilarious.
Anyways, I see you see my point, and I got yours too. Africa is Africa and there is probably the largest and most prolific numbers of peoples of all sorts and all cultures on the planet there. That’s one reason why I don’t use “black”, because it doesn’t mean anything except the fact that Europeans imposed their reductive view all over, to magnify themselves, or attempt to.
B.R. can you provide one or two sources that support what you are saying here:
I would have thought the exact opposite: that the knowledge and civilization that florished in Egypt had DEEP roots in the rest of Africa… But I must say I haven’t yet come across anything to support that view (I haven’t had time to continue reading my Cheick Anta Diop books yet). The opposite would surprise me though. A great civilization like that one needs to have very deep and wide roots… It seems to me.
Because otherwise it somehow seems to confirm the European vision of Africans knowing nothing and learning what they know from “superior” others… Do you see what I mean ? African cultures are deep and old enough to have BROUGHT a lot to neighboring cultures… and not the opposite.
Why am I saying this: another personal experience. We were visiting the Louvres museum some years ago and my husband saw something in a window. He said: “Hey, but that’s Messah’s stuff”. Messah was his grand-ma at the village in Western Cameroon. Just before he had said that, a mother had very seriously explained to her daughter that “these artifacts here in this window belonged to the Pharaoh’s wife”.
It was kinda hilarious to see an African putting things back in perspective with referring to his grand-ma’s stuff being the exact same as the Pharaoh’s wife. Sure, his grand-ma lived AFTER the Egyptian dynasties, but these objects (a comb, a file, scissors, a hoe, and other various every day life objects) have probably existed from before the time of the Pharaoes, simply because they were needed.
This is why (in part) I am wondering…
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“Linda, lets agree to disagree, again,and I disagree that it is buying into white racism, there are white racists who use the phrase in a derrogatory racist mannor, and , I use it to destroy their logic between their eyes…its intent as far as Im concerned.”
Linda says,
But you aren’t destroying their view — you further the racist agenda because you managed to rationalize it’s existence….
ancient African culture(s) are defined by more than just music and modern day Africa needs to be defined by Africans, not by the white western world.
and how could Egypt not matter when different ancient black African ethnic groups came out of the Nile…you can’t have it both ways. Black Africans lived on all 4 quadrants of the Continent prior to the Arab invasion.
But as I told, you are entitled to your opinion. I personally see no use for this word…it wasn’t created to honour anyone.
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Linda, sorry to jump into the conversation with B.R. but what about the term “black” and the term “white” and all the other straight rac-ist terms ?… They weren’t created to honor (are you British ? 😉 ) anyone either… I *think*…
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eh im british and irish and suposed to be punchin myself in the head all day however well north african como se dice berber or something it is different i wouldnt say semetic idk
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“Cornlia,
Linda, sorry to jump into the conversation with B.R. but what about the term “black” and the term “white” and all the other straight rac-ist terms ?… They weren’t created to honor (are you British ?”
Linda says,
I agree…but that term is thoroughly embraced by African descendants themselves — just another example of a word that was given “life” by white racists that people don’t see anything wrong with and have rationalized its usage.
Just to add, (on the flip side) many Afrocentrist believe that the term “black” was used as a description of the land itself and the people of the land of ancient Africa, and they believe this is how Africa got its name.
the word “Africa” may have originated from the languages out of Kush (Nubia) and Kemet/Ta Mery (ancient Egypt) from the words: “Afu-ra-ka and Afu-rait-kait” which are have multi-layered meanings, that when combined, refers to the collective identity of “the people” or African — in translation:
“created by and children of, Afu Ra and Afu Rait. Our bodies were formed from the original, black, raised land (Ka).”
http://www.worldafropedia.com/afropedia/Afrika
I know that the Arab invaders referred to certain groups as “black” based on their actual “skin colour” but they did also refer to many groups by their Ethnic names.
I think that African ethnic groups, in modern times, should be called by their Ethnic names — the same way we refer to European ethnic groups as “Germans, French, Greek, etc” .. you never hear them being referred to as white Europeans or white sub-Europeans by the general public, western media or scholars.
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“BR,
Linda, these cultures Im talking about, developed way before the Arabs got there, your map shows that Mali and Niger and the Sahel is not desert back then”
Linda says,
Not sure which maps you were looking at but for sure, Mali, Chad and Niger have always been part of the Sahara.
If you were looking at the map labeled “6000 years ago”, then almost NONE of North Africa was desert… not Egypt, Libya, Algeria, etc, based on that map, the entire continent is below the small strip of Sahara desert …. so if we’re talking geography, using the map from 6000 years ago, the entire continent is “sub-Sahara”
but since the term “sub-Saharan Africa” is a modern creation, if we look at the maps of the 1800’s (when the desert was fully formed), then Mali, Chad, and Niger were/are part of the Sahara and should not have been classified as “sub-Sahara” (if the creators were truly speaking from only a geographical POV)
here is a map made in 1858: Map of Africa Engraved to Illustrate Mitchell’s School and Family Geography
http://catalog.afriterra.org/zoomMap.cmd?number=10
Notice in the map how “Soudan” seems to encompass the central portion of the continent from east to west…
Keep in mind that the names of countries/ regional territories changed many times over depending on the Rulers and which European or Arab occupier was making the map
the Romans / Greeks used to call the entire continent Libya, Egypt, or Ethiopia and they were only talking about northern territories.
Just like modern day “Ethiopia” by the horn, had different names in ancient times: “Kush, Axum/Aksum, Abyssinia”
here is a map showing ancient Ethiopia; it also shows a little bit of group migratory patterns.
http://empathosnationenterprises.com/Consulate/EN-Library/Black-Studies/afancient.html
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Linda, I botched my post taking it to the other thread as you noted…Ill try to get it over here….but I may not be able to
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Linda, music is one of the most important ways you can define a culture and how a people express themselves…and , I can guarentee you, the concepts I am talking about , didnt start in Egypt.
Cornlia, Ive been trying to explain, who ever put together two duple triple rhythms, looped them back on each other, with call responce syncopation, and cross rhythm , was dealing with advanced laws of mathamatics , exactly designed to have an affect by turning off the thinking brains and based on people holding their own parts , starts taking on a life of its own , and puts the practitioners in touch with intuition and using shuffle steps, and total body immersion with pelvic thrusts and head balance all co ordinated together and in time with the beats. Modern quantum physics and fractal definitions almost mimic these concepts in their descriptions as well as modern science is telling us that our intuition is actualy in charge of our bodies actions , and not our thinking brain, and these musical concepts Im talking about , are like a demonstration of our intuition in motion…if you ask me, that is genius and what civilisation is about and part ot the great steps ahead in human developement of modern man…they were some of the first steps…
So you really have to abandon conventional thinking for a second and ask yourself this, they found bone flutes in Europe , maybe 60 thousand years old…do you think humans invented bone flutes before drums? When the first modern humans evolved in Africa, what are they saying? 120 thousand years ago? You can state the fact if you know it, I also beleive the first migration of modern humans , over the Red Sea, that led to all the modern humans to populate all the areas outside of Africa happened about 90 thousand years ago? Correct that if you know the fact…but , no matter what, the 30 thousand years of modern man evolving in Africa before they crossed the Red Sea, is long enough for that modern man, who is equal to us in all levals, could be raised in modern society today, is enough time, that long ago , to actualy start to evolve the music concepts Im talking about, for sure the initial stages
and when I read the Igbo language was the basis for words in Egyption culture, and some semetic culturs, Indian languages and even English, I realised that the first migration out of Africa also took some of the early expresions of beats that had already been evolved in Igbo culture, which I always wondered about a similar type of groove that you can find from Africa to the Middle East, to India , to Indo China to Samoa…its not as complex as the evolved below the Sahara African beats became, but they are the traces, I beleive of some of the earliast drum and beat concepts of humans…I mean cmon, drums would have been invented before bone flutes..Africa is the home of the drum…even if arceologists will tell you the most ancient drums were found in Mesopatania, some clay pot drums…but common sence logic tells you, Africa is the home of the drum and , early man must have been in touch with the drum from a long long time ago…
Even if you cant fathom that long ago, you know that these concepts Im talking about, were in sub Sahara black Africa before they were anywhere else
Linda, you cant really talk about migrating patterns and where you think Africans have migrated without actualy checking out the traditional drum dance cultures of all over Africa, and see where the concepts Im talking about are concentrated and the most prolific…you have to go to the wiki link , I brought in, music and druming of sub sahara Africa and start checking out each tribe with youtubes of their traditional drums and dance…there are amazing similarities in so many tribes from below the Sahara, and, the ones in the North that are similar, more often as not come from two sources, the Berbers and Gnawas, who were the desert travelers and brought these concepts north …you are just saying words as though migrations were going back and forth, but the basic fundimentals of music Im talking about , without a doubt, didnt come from Egypt. The lower nile goes into other countries and I said the map you brought in 6000 years ago shows the Sahel was not desert and would have been a East to West flow of the concepts Im talking about
on Sat 27 Apr 2013 at 02:35:21 Linda
BR, you posted in the wrong place, so I will respond in the correct post.
on Sat 27 Apr 2013 at 02:38:00 B. R.
…and to continue, words are just words, look at the youtubes and they will tell you the story and then you can link the words you read about into the actual visualsation of those cultures
So, Cornila, it realy depends on how much you value that these ancient concepts that started below the Sahara by various cultures as diverse as the Igbo, and Pygmies and even the oldest known, the San, have elements of these concepts, but not as strong as Igbo. It depends on if you value that those concepts come all the way into today with as much force if not more than any pyramid ever built…I mean I sure perceive it in our cultures, the amont of force it drives our popular cultures , not to mention the deeper cultures that arnt popular but are innovating up to this very moment…I mean my gosh, if that isnt genius, the early advancements that modern man made, that really , are the first steps to all the knowledge advancements that humans have made, from the Egyptions, to the Indians, the Chinese, the native Americans, the Arabs, into Western advancements etc….it had to start somewhere and that is in sub Sahara black Africa…its clear as a bell to me…it didnt come from Egypt…
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Sorry !!! wrong thread, Im trying to put it on the sub sahara, you can remove this Abagond if you wantSorry !!! wrong thread, Im trying to put it on the sub sahara, you can remove this Abagond if you want
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blaaaahahaha, I really made a mess out of that….
Linda, I strained my brain trying to get my posts over here, Ill read your post and answer tomorow….geesh
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B.R., no words are not *just* words. Words mean and contain things. But that’s the whole new conversation. And I don’t have time for it. If words were just words, there would be no need for them.
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“BR,
Linda, music is one of the most important ways you can define a culture and how a people express themselves…and , I can guarentee you, the concepts I am talking about , didnt start in Egypt.
and when I read the Igbo language was the basis for words in Egyption culture, and some semetic culturs, Indian languages and even English, I realised that the first migration out of Africa also took some of the early expresions of beats that had already been evolved in Igbo culture”
Linda says,
And I totally agree with you but
here’s the problem… you want to dismiss post-Arab “black” northern Africa and only focus on pre-Arab “black” south /west Africa … BR, you can’t have it both ways because the word “sub-Saharan” Africa is a modern term that is talking about the modern African people.
we have to stay in the same time period — “pre-Arab” Africa… and this means a time when indigenous “black” Africans lived and populated the entire continent.
I already read (long ago) your links but I stand by my statement that they still don’t provide any relevancy for the term “sub-Saharan” to exist but I enjoyed the professor’s paper — very insightful.
I’ve read other papers on the subject and the authors managed to point out that the Khoisans came from the southern region of Africa and they didn’t find it necessary to use the words “sub Saharan” — (like I keep saying, the professor and other scholars use of the term “sub Saharan” is in deference to a western audience – this is who she is speaking to in her articles — it’s a choice to use it, not a must)
and for Cornelia and everyone else’s FYI, the paper (and professor) that BR keeps bringing up, is Professor Catherine Acholonu, who addressed an article written by Nicholas Wade, which stated that
here is her website: http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/igbo/westafricanorigin.htm
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The professors “west-to east” migration theory is based on ancient “Kush /Kemet/ Ethiopia” being spread across the Continent from east coast to west coast (which is shown on some maps of the continent) –she believes the ancient parent group of the Igbo migrated eastward.
but this concept is still controversial because other theories state otherwise, the migration was westward:
“The Igbo (ancient Nri Kingdom) appear to have settled in their present area thousands of years ago possibly from Kemet/ Egypt/Sudan” – it was these early “Noks” that brought the Igbo language from the north/east to the west.
http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/sesostris-the-great-the-egyptian-hercules/igbos-of-nigeria-and-ancient-kemitians-of-kemit-egypt-oguejiofo-annu/
but the professor states that this is a back migration — such as it was with the Akans, who migrated from the north, through the Sahara into the west
but people like the Edos (ancient Benin) claim that the Igbos weren’t the original group of people in the west and many scholars are convinced the link leads from Kemet/Kush to the west.
All in all, these theories put a huge spoke in a lot of Eurocentric wheels.
I find all this to be highly fascinating and if anything, it backs up what I was saying all along, which is that since Africans populated the entire continent, why dishonour their memory by conceding and using white western terms that are designed to put them into “racial boxes” and erase their historical relevancy to the Entire continent.
The term “sub-Saharan” Africa allows the “new boys on the block” — the Arabs — to hijack ancient northern Africa’s history from its original dark-skinned people– the term “excludes”, not includes.
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I meant to say ancient “Sudan” being spread across the Continent from east coast to west coast (which is shown on some maps of the continent)”
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Linda in that case:
it is not the same “black” they are referring to and I would be delighted if scholars or people came up with a word or showed that that origin of the word Africa is what is given above.
In that case “Africa” or another (or other) African-language word would be fine, wouldn’t it ?
I refuse to use racist vocabulary, for my part. That is a sign of respect as far as I am concerned.
The majority of people who use “black” to describe Africans these day don’t it in relation to the information you bring above, but following the racists’ injunction…
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Linda, yes, I think most of the studies of ancient peoples indicate that in reality, they dont exactly know what happened…and, like you said, they all are fascinating and do totaly turn normal western concepts upside down…
Yeah, the Igbo became my new best freinds after reading that Nigerian professor, the Dogon before that, Kwamla brought in very pertinent information about that, then, I later read that some people think they migrated from Egypt, but ended up saying that they didnt know for sure..
Lots of things are in the dark..so what do you do? Lets look at youtubes of traditional cultures …that will tell a huge story…
What I can say about black people who were in North Africa before the Arabs, I dont think they originated from there, they came from the south
There is this huge gap of time before “official civilisation”, and, its just very nebulous….but, look at youtubes of Pygmies and their traditional drum dance…I beleive you are seeing some incredible links to the ancient past…
What I beleive we can learn from looking at huge numbers of youtubes of various sub Sahara black cultures, is there is a tremendous similar underlying thread of concepts in their drum/dance, it begs various questions.
Why do they have this similar thread of expresion? Even if they have their own versions, it still falls under very similar principles, that you dont find that much in other places in the world…you have grooves in South India , but not the same kind of dancing to go with it and not as evolved as a lot of the African drumming as far as a cross rhythm concept, they have another evolved concept based on phrase and linear developement of rhtym…
When did these concept get developed? From where? How did it spread so heavily to a lot of people who have darker skins and curly hair , even with genetic differances?
The traces that exist in the North of Africa, mostly can be traced to Berbers and the Gnawa of Morroco, and their drumming isnt in as much abundance compared to when you go south…but, not all cultures south are steeped in deep drum dance cultures, but, just huge amounts of the cultures are…doesnt it seem obvious that the Berbers got these concepts from the South?
Yes, “pre Arab” can be a good description, I have used these phrases that people have suggested…but, I just dont get that “sub Sahara black Africa” plays into racist mentality…its English, its words, these words can be used to describe very profound concepts and get to the point and everyone knows what it means…and, pre arab , or ancient Africans leaves out the present and these concepts are still evolving by people in the black African diaspora, so, I cant just say its ancient, it came from ancient concepts, but is alive today…
Anyway, it is fascinating, Im only sharing my theories, Im looking at other peoples theories and always try to hook my theories over the latest discoveries , because they are like liquid in the sence that, tell me what the facts of migration are and I can then show how my theories could fit in with the facts
What is indeniable is, there is a huge body of youtubes of traditional drum dance from all over Africa and , it shows that these drum dance concepts are heavily concentrated on the black populations that are below the Sahara, and they have similar properties that link them together…there is an origin in there somewhere and it is very ancient
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“BR,
I just dont get that “sub Sahara black Africa” plays into racist mentality…its English, its words, these words can be used to describe very profound concepts and get to the point and everyone knows what it means”
Linda says,
But so is the word “n’gger” — it’s just a word and everyone knows “who” the word is referring to and it gets to the point — so I guess since it’s just a word, it’s OK to use it by your rationalization.
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“BR, What I can say about black people who were in North Africa before the Arabs, I dont think they originated from there, they came from the south”
Linda says,
If we go with that thought process, then we can say that the entire modern human race came out of the south Africa (because Grimaldi men lived in Europe and these ancient humans also populated Asia) so the entire modern human race should be called “sub-Saharan” Africans … not just the black ones.
But you know you are going wayyyy too far back with that one because Evolution has changed modern man and genetically, we are no longer those original people who lived on Pangaea and walked into Europe and Asia.
The current claim of “ownership” of north Africa is going back to the pre-Arab era… Europeans /Arabs are using the Berbers to claim that “white” people originally lived in North Africa and they are using this to dismiss the “real Africans” that were living there pre-Berber — I personally can’t co-sign with this creative dismissal of the real Africans who lived there prior to the Berbers.
this is the whole point your Professor and other scholars are trying to make, that different ethnic black African groups originated and lived on the Entire continent.
There was a reason the “sub Saharan” line was drawn, BR — it was done in order for Europeans/Arabs to “claim” north Africa and push the black Africans out of their own history and accomplishments; and
by anyone saying “Oh well, they come from the south anyway” — you’re co-signing to this “white washing” of African history.
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and as you can see from the chart, current homo sapiens came of the darkets red and brown zones. This is the horn and Nile region… that’s northeast (not south) — these are the people we are genetically related to.
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Bulanik, your comment made me think of this:
when I was taking my Race Theory and Social Thought class, whose teacher was from Erithrea and that was important because he was not on the same “thinking-line” as African-Americans, he explained to us that the current “black studies” and “Africana studies” were very well funded, IF you were in the “racially accepted” line of thinking. One of the most “important” “black sociologists”, who is also the head of an association of sociologist, wrote an article that we had to write a critical essay on. He was the most rac-ist (meaning he not only believed in race but was on the search of biological basis for its justification) of all the contemporary writers we read.
Serving the power (without being aware of it, of course) ?
This is THE reason why I think and maintain that using “racial” references is what the “power” wants. It is what it encourages ! Thinking out of the box means risking getting no financing… Isn’t money “the nerve of the war”, as we say in French ?
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I see what you guys are saying.
I have never, for my part, used or thought of the word “sub” in that case as referring to “sub-human”… To me it was a geographical indicator of countries below the Sahara desert. But I get your point.
Still, I maintain that “black” is worst, because it directly designates “race”, and Africans before they encountered Europeans in the frame of the invasion, deportation and colonization called “expansion” by the Europeans invaders didn’t refer to themselves as a “race”. They were the victims of that perverse (because it puts things upside down, and makes it very complicated to counteract, because it forces the attacker to stay in the same conceptual frame) manipulation of the simultaneous unity and diversity of humans.
Unless someone proves me wrong (and this is going to be very difficult), until now “race” has not brought anything positive to people labelled as “non-whites”, especially those labelled as “black”.
It obviously is a concept that helps the conqueror/dominant group maintain their dominance and not the opposite. As long as we stay inside *their* definition, *their* frame, nothing will happen but the development of *their* concept along other lines, that may seem “liberating” but simply cannot be. Because it’s *their* thinking we use. Perversion (as represented in Narcissistic Personality Disorder, for which the word “perverse” is used in French) can only be escaped by ignoring it. You don’t fight it, because you find yourself entangled in it: the manipulator is always stronger. It is looking for you to fight it upfront. It wants you to use its frame of reference so it can confuse you further.
I am convinced of that.
If “race” had served us (humans) any good, we would have known it by now.
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Just so things are clear: “black” AND “white” are equally bad. (in reference to what I said above). It’s not just “black” that I don’t use, it’s all the racial labels.
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Cornlia:
What makes you think there’s only one “power”? I can think of several loci of power which may benefit from such an arrangement.
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I am talking of white supremacy, the power acquired and maintain through the belief in “race”… OBVIOUSLY ! That is, what we know now as the “financial” power (capitalism), “political” power (of International Institutions controlled by the same people), “ideological” power (philosophy, and other “humanities” are obviously -when you read sociologists, the euro-centrism is striking), even the control over energy production, in particular through “nuclear energy” which allows for “military” power.
is that enough power for you ?
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Linda, just to answer your points, there is no comparison with the n word and “sub Sahara Africa”, which I heard before the 70’s in relationship to Africa…almost every country in the Americas has a name that relates to the colonisers,the nature of all the colonisers languages makes it “politicaly incorrect”….and the people saying the phrase is racist is playing to the gallery outside Africa as much as the Africans who use the phrase in their papers and music classes
Your referance to the article on “United Africa” is , as I have been saying, a very political stand, not cultural. South America has a bunch of countries that lign up politicaly now, they loved regecting the boogy man the USA, in their attemt to get a trade agreement.If a country like Colombia had Uribe in office, counter the other countries ideology, they were subject to having revolutionary groups supported by some of the countries with another political ideologue when Uribe is in office…what Im saying is, this unity is only based on a loose political alliance, underneath, culturaly, their are enormous differances, Brazil is absolutly like no other country in South America, its huge black population giving it a huge cultural differance as well as the differant language , there is no real unity except on a political tip…I personaly dont think a United States of Africa will happen, but I dont know and am not arguing against that, Im not talking politicaly at all..and I beleive coming from a position on this phrase from a political standpoint only ,is not dealing with the entire spectrum this phrase has been used in a positive light…go after the people who use in a racist way…by all means
Thing is , Linda, the phrase “sub Sahara black Africa” is not on an international stage as a racist word like the n word…its just isnt…it is not even a hotly debated issue…its strictly some peoples opinions now, it is a politicly based opinion and doesnt acknowledge cultural differances and their importance and origins
I am talking culturly, that means genes and migrations are not eclusive in defining these cultural concepts Im talking about..that really ought to be looked into because there is tremendous knoledge to be leaned from them that doesnt get demonstrated in political definitions….
By the way , your maps are contradicting each other, and the most honest one you brought in before said they cant really define a huge area of Africsa, the knowledge just isnt there…and, I already said, the Sahel was below the Sahara thousands of years ago, so, the concepts I described , fit right in with that…its definitly the Arab influences because of their entrance in from the north, that define the differances in the cultures……since the maps are contradictory , seriously, one of the best things you can do is go to the wiki link I brought in and start taking each tribe they go into and look for their name and type in traditionial drumming dancing on youtube and then you really can start getting an idea of these cultural concepts Im talking about, how they have similarities , how they exist along side Arab influenced traditions and Ismalic traditions in some countres but there are differances in their origins and you can even pick out the differant origins when they are mixed together…you have to see the youtube I brought in where the narrator sais in Zanzibar, the traditional drumming and dancing are being lost . And, just the recent events in Mali, demonstrate how you had cultures with the concepts Im talking about, you had a tolerant form of Islam , then you had a militant form of Islam that came in and prohibited the traditional cultures, and the people celibrated when they were permitted again to celibrate their culture, can you imagine banning music from the people of Mali? with such a deep link to the ancient traditions Im talking about? And , African Holocaust uses Mali over and over to try to imply the we are all Africans in Africa concept, yet on the ground reality is really differant
I have no objections to people who choose to not use the phrase, and, I can say, like what I said to Abagond, lets see how this plays out in 20 years, lets see if its looked on as such a racist phrase…or if it will melt away into insignificance
Ive seen too many of these idealistic mandates come forth on the political road, and they turned out to be wrong later…really wrong, especialy when related to culture….Im not going to just jump because a phrase that isnt an international issue is chopped up on the political tip that isnt even universaly agreed with , or any kind of major issue
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The thing about the maps, Linda, they are covering a span of what , 200,000 years? There is so much space in there, we barely know what happened 4000 years ago, and if people migrated onw way, they could migrate back another…
Im not talking about the first people migrating around, the Kohisians and San, but they have traces of the concepts Im talking about, but , there are huge amounts of tribes that have very similar concepts that can be linked together and a huge amount of them share things like the same texture hair and darker skins in general
And I need to emphasis, while Im talking similar concept you can find in the youtubes of traditional dancing and drumming Im suggesting to look at from the Wiki I brought in and look at them on youtube….of course there are cultural differances , but inside these concepts…you do have tribes like the Masai that arnt as drum oriented and were part of the migration that came back into Africa….what Im saying about Islam and the Arab influences is that, they represented a very differant cultural concepts that came in, obviously , Arab culture has its own variations in its own cultures, but it was a major new influence that touched everywhere it went , and brought its own concepts to the table that were then assimilated into the place they went…both differances and origins are very much worth looking at to understand what makes up the concepts of their cultures
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Cornlia:
You missed a rather obvious one: the Ethnic Studies/Advocacy-Industrial Complex.
Were your stated goal of eliminating racial classifications to succeed, many thousands of academics, authors, pundits, lobbyists, NGO workers and others would lose their livelihoods. Go to any university with one more more ethnic studies departments and you’ll find great numbers of people whose interest it is to perpetuate such distinctions.
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I mentioned what you are saying in a comment above, Randy. I agree with you. They probably are the ones who maintain the status quo in the most discrete way. I realized that even more when reading major sociologists for the first time recently. I was the only one with an other Central American student to mention that fact after each reading in class: the only ones that seemed not totally taken were Marx (except for his narrow vision of “the Jew”) and Simmel. The others (the ones we read for that class), Smith, Dürkheim, Weber, Freud, Rousseau… were all racists. Nietzsches I need to read more. I was told it was sacarsm and irony. I wasn’t able to take the next class (with more modern “real” sociologists) so I don’t know yet how it evolved. All I can say is that out of a class of twenty, only two non-Americans “saw something”… One African-American girl who seemed to have a diverse background did say that she had noticed that too. But even other African-Americans had no idea. Most want to be sociologists… That’s kind of appalling to me. And they are much younger than me… even more surprising…
What I said above:
“Eliminating racial classifications” is not *my goal*, it is simply how I view the world. So I’m trying to work on making the world look saner…
And yes, this is true, a LOT OF people will lose *something* when racism is defeated. But it is not tomorrow.
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^And yes, I do believe that a lot of people do work for white supremacy without realizing it… Because that ideology has its ways to make people believe they can be proud of things there is no pride to have in, simply because they don’t exist. It thrives on void.
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Cornlia:
Are you suggesting that ethnic studies departments and related industries are working for “white supremacy”?
Occam’s razor would suggest that these bureaucracies simply exist for their own sustaining benefit, a motive which can probably be ascribed to almost all movements / philosophies, at least eventually.
Students, idealism, and guaranteed student loans transmogrify into tenured professorships, books sales, and restaurant wait staff.
This formula does not require the existence or participation of any hegemonic conspiracy.
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BR,
as Cornelia just accurately pointed out — a lot of people with good intentions work for white supremacy without realizing it — and rationalizing the use of racist terms furthers the agenda of white supremacy.
This word was created in the world of “scientific racism” back in the early 1800’s and European scientific racism is the reason that Africans and African descended people have had their worlds turned upside-down.
I get that the word is not controversial because at the end of the day, as you say “hey, black Africans have no problems using it, so it’s cool”
and my response to that nonchalant rationalization is that: “black” people over the years have accepted and embraced many racist concepts forced on them by white supremacist (such as Walter Ashby Plecker) — starting with the word “black” as a word to define them — in order to erase their ethnic identities and heritage.
but black people accepting a “white supremacist created word” does not make the word “OK” because everyone who is African-descended knows that we have a lot of work ahead to UNDO the damage and brainwashing
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“BR,
By the way , your maps are contradicting each other, and the most honest one you brought in before said they cant really define a huge area of Africsa, the knowledge just isnt there…and, I already said, the Sahel was below the Sahara thousands of years ago, so, the concepts I described , fit right in with that”
Linda says,
That’s the problem — I am not talking about African musical concepts.
My reasons for bringing in maps is not to show how drum concepts migrated from the south but to show that Africans lived on the entire continent and that you shouldn’t dismiss the early people who lived in the north
— they might have been influenced by the south but origination as a people did not occur in the south.
I stepped away from talking about African drumming with my maps (I guess you didn’t realize it) because, as I said before, to me, 1 cultural aspect of a group of people has nothing to do with the bigger picture.
I realize you want to put a positive spin on this term “sub-saharan Africa” because the people it was created to define, embody the musical expression that you admire but by only focusing on drum/dance concepts of Africans, you are turning them into 1 dimensional caricatures and they are more than just music or its expressions in their cultures.
I brought in maps to show that Africans lived on the entire continent prior to the Arab invasion, before and during Roman/Greeks and that they were indigenous to the land prior to their genocide through slavery and intermixing but their influence, culture, and children have lived on in the north.
— so Egypt and north African should not be called “the middle East” and easily divided and have its original African inhabitants pushed out of their own history
the maps show migration patterns of ancient Africans and this came out of the East — so I don’t see any contradictions to the points I am making because the map shows how they disseminated throughout the Continent.
As I said before, you can of course talk about what ever you wish but at some point, you and I have to be on the same page in order to have a conversation; if not, then we are speaking past each other and not “to” each other.
I am interested in the racial, economic, and political construct of the term “sub-Saharan” — the media and academia may be the main users of the word — but these are the mediums where the average person learns –TV, books, videos, school — so they can influence our thinking and acceptance of words and concepts…they directly impact how much kool-aide gets consumed by the average joe.
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Bulanik, good to see you… your input has been sorely missed by me.
I definitely didn’t see your earlier post but you are dead on with your assessment because the current agenda is economical.
Look forward to when you can settle down and we can delve into this further.
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Cornlia:
Not difficult: Affirmative Action
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Randy, I would say that it is the never abating work of mostly African-Americans who have understood how this system works. You can call it Affirmation Action, I call it never giving up and sacrificing a lot for a just cause. It’s not “race” that has achieved anything, it’s beating them at their own game. It seems to me.
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Linda, a *few* Euro-descendants too:
but *they* hate it, so we are made as invisible as possible…
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“Randy,
Not difficult: Affirmative Action”
Linda says,
only in America, Randy… for those of us who live outside of the US, those word/policy have no meaning.
This post is not about black Americans .. stick to the script.
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“Cornelia,
but *they* hate it, so we are made as invisible as possible”
Linda,
true…but as long as you know where your heart and intention lies, that’s all that matters…that’s why I truly do understand how you and BR feel and what this word means to you.
As much as I am defending Africa’s right for self-determination, when I was in school in Germany and interacted with the African students — as a mixed-race Caribbean, I was not fully accepted as “black” amongst any of them — regardless of what region they came from.
…the Egyptians or Moroccans told me outright that I wasn’t “black”, and some of the students from the south and central countries told me outright that I wasn’t “black”….I had less challenge about my right’s to use the word from Ethiopians, Eritreans, and Nigerians.
they all would probably find it funny that I am vigorously defending and denouncing the term “sub-Saharan” African because it wouldn’t personally apply to me…but in my heart, I care because what affects one, affects all… that’s why I said the north Africans reminded me of my mestizo brethren — people who deny 1 aspects of their heritage in favor of the other(s).
it was this experience in Europe that truly opened my eyes to the fact that the word “black” or “brown/ morena” really had no meaning and it changed with the Continent and the culture or the majority ruling power.
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@ Linda
I think you’ve made some excellent comments and provided some useful insights into this topic. I really liked this one:
However, I would not necessarily say the word “Black” has no real meaning. Or that it had no meaning for African peoples prior to European contact.
As I am sure you know it has been reclaimed by Africa descendants as a more than just positive descriptor of colour but as celebration of culture, heritage and a state of being.
In the same way terms like “brown/morena” or even “white” have yet to achieve such positively unifying global statuses. They may or may not. But this all depends on the rejection or acceptance of this globally imposed ideological mythology of white supremacy.
If the term “white” was reclaimed in a positive way which did not imply superiority then all of the reflective colour terms would have less of a divisively charged meaning.
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Linda said:
At first I replied the same, and then erased it because I thought, oh wth… they know that, don’t they ?
But I don’t think they do. A lot of Americans imagine it’s America everywhere.
On Affirmative Action: this is yet another of the favorite twists of racism: “you want to fight me ? Adhere to MY values and then we’ll see”.
This reminds me of that book I read some time ago: “Why are all the black kids sitting together in the cafeteria ?” by psychologist Beverly Daniel Tatum. A very telling book as of the way “race” is pushed and washed into American minds, and how most of them adhere to it as if it was a “must”.
It is not a must ! The only ones who say it is are racists !
This racist machinery ends up being self-propelled… Racists don’t even have to do anything, the very victims adhere to it through the various mechanisms like the most powerful, because it sounds positive: “pride”…
Kwamla: “race” is a killer. A destroyer. I hope humanity realizes it fast, because we are up for more genocide-type bloodshed if we don’t give it up.
Africans can and will find other ways, because their collective imagination is strong and creative enough to tell Euros-thoughts: leave us alone, we know who we are. I don’t know if Aminata Traoré has been translated into English, but she is one of those strong and dedicated voices.
I personally don’t see how the victim of a person with a troubled personality can continue to thrive without liberating him/herself from the grip of that persons’ WORDS… Troubled personalities of the type of racists (and we have an epidemic here) function on the basis of perversion (reversal of values, meaning, etc), you can turn their “racist words and values” around as much you want, they will always be twisted, whichever way.
Peace
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For sure , Linda, if “sub Sahara black Africa” is deemed in a large way , in the future, as being unacceptably racist, I will remember the conversations here, but the people who labeled Louis Armstrong an uncle tom never came out and said “we were wrong..”, it took Wynton Marsalis coming out and condemning those attitudes and showing how silly it was to restore the real value Armstrong represents to American culture
I mean, what is your take on Loius Armstrong and tap dancing?
Linda, I am not denying the existance of African people in North Africa, and their heritage, Ive mentioned the Berbers and Gnawa many times
I keep telling you, drum/dance is just a gateway to the body of knowledge Im talking about…Afro diasporic drum/dance is something I have immersed myself into so, that is my link to this body of knowledge, which includes so many other things….I talk about that, because my immersion deeply into it is what gives me my insights (its not because Im a jazz drummer, most jazz musicins have no idea what Im talking about), but, there are many other angles people can look at also, but,if it isnt my expertice,how can i speak with authority? …that is why the Nigerian professor is so interesting to me, because her studies on Igbo language and how it spread (and then just look at Igbo drumming on youtube, unbeleivably powerful and a shining example of these drum dance concepts Im talking about), gives me something that I can tie in with my insights about these cultures and how they spread…she is a linguistics expert…and her insights combine with things that I am saying..if we can find important clues to this body of knowledge, in dance drumming and linguistics, imagine how many other things point to a great body of knowledge and genius that came out of black Africans that originated out of territory below the Sahara (Im talking who brought forth these concepts, not the migrations to the north or genetics), certainly at the time these concepts were developed, and how powerfullly you can find the examples today by looking at youtubes about traditional drum dance in Africa. This is what I feel there is very little desire in the Judeo/Christian/Muslim educational process to do, actualy ackowledge this incredible developement by modern humans, of taking steps forward in our advancement, that led to all the other steps forward that came after that.
Because, who ever had the genius to put two duple /triple rhythms together,loop it back and repeat it with syncopation and cross rhythms and a huge dance concept to go right along with it , with implications about how to lose the thinking brain and get in touch with intuition, was making a gigantic statement and did something that just isnt common in other cultures, yet, there is a huge amount of people of differant cultures and genetic backgrounds, who have huge links to these concepts, most especialy in the black people (not all the black people and cultures, I want to emphasis that) below the Sahara and in the Sahel..and, most important of all, they arnt relics of the past, this genius and body of knowledge is driving many of our modern cultures in a big way,yet, not ackowledged at all
Everyone here is in agreement about how white people and the West, made up racism, to justify bringing slaves from Africa and conquer and destroy cultures in the Americas and India etc
If we agree race is made up, what was really at the heart of the Atlantic slave trade and the Arab slave trade, was the beleif that the people who practiced their cultures were inferior, in many cases because they just didnt practice the religion of the conquerers, but, not exclusivly…the beleif in the inferiority of the cultures is squarly at the bottom of how slavery in Africa became such big business and why racism was invented…racism is abstract, but the beleif in superiority of culture is very omnisiently too real and if you really analyse it, it is at the heart of what racism is all about
Im saying, instead of attacking words, which, as I pointed out, when discussing racism and colonisation, all the languages of the colonisers are inherantly racist, the whole world should start recognising in a big way the cultures that brought us this great body of knowledge and were surly the first steps of modern humans at arriving at concepts of describing the universe, outer and inner, that are the steps that paved the way for all the other discoveries of modern humans, because non of our advancements would not be possible if not for the discoveries made by the people before them….
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at the end should read “none of our advancements would be possible”
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B.R. I took a little time to read your stuff (you do write long comments… and have some stuff to do) and I am with you. I think your approach is interesting.
Now about this:
I think that “attacking words” is also showing what certain cultures (in the case of racism A certain culture or group of “sub-cultures” -that is branches of a main culture) DO USE WORDS to subjugate others.
So basically, your approach which consists in showing, “recognizing” “knowledge” is complementary with denouncing the manipulation of language that has had HUGE impacts on cultures and behaviors.
I hope that I can personally work on proving that, I had started, I wanted to do research here (US) but unfortunately I have to move back to France. In between I have gathered references and info and will continue my work on my own, hoping to find time and people to work with in France.
Language is humanity’s thing, so words are tools and material in the construction of human relationships. These racist words are not “openers” as music is as you are exposing it, they act as reducers of thoughts, walls around them, frames and boundaries than people are not supposed to cross.
See what happens when I say I refuse them and reject them ? Even people who are in the fight against racism jump all over me (and others like me) saying: “oh but you can’t say that, blah blah”. They are lost without the frame, the reference, the boundaries. I and others know why. Racism is a such a manipulative device that we understand after a while (it takes some thinkin, observing, understanding and acceptance, and certainly no blame) how people can be trapped in it, because it seems to give meaning to things, when all it does is stop creativity, deny nature, reject mixing (which is the basis of sexual reproduction and viability, if not life).
Somehow our vision joins your take, because music also is life and mixing and the acceptance of variation and difference. What and who rejects that also rejects the music you are describing… it’s certainly no coincidence
Peace
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My point about words is this, the racists just learn the new rules of words and adapt and run their racism right on….look how much the semantics have shifted in the last 50years or so….
White racists in the USA dont go around using known racist words these days , in a blatent public way like they used to, they learned how to skirt around them, and keep their racist aproaches going and just take the political correct words and put their racist atitudes behind them
Its not that words cant be powerful, its that its the racist atitudes that are the real problem. And correcting long held beleifs about what is inferior or superiour or civlised or intelligent should be priorities
My gosh, I dont see sub Sahara Africa used with any kind of frequency in the media or regular conversation, there are much more pressing issues to deal with in Africa, than that phrase, and, all the examples I brought in , werent trying to defend the use of the phrase, it was a natural use in papers that were for a variety of mundane subjects and actualy were Africans talking to Africans , in the case of some of the legal papers I brought in….
But, African Holocaust is using his words to give misinformation about culture, and, actualy, i respect a lot of what he said, but, in his attack on the use of that phrase, he sluffs over important issues of culture, just mixes it all up
Its like the Americans who look at their music and say “its all American, everyone contributes” , and therefor denying and diminsishing the enormous contribution that is black American culture , using concepts that come from the great body of knowledge I am talking about
using words to deny , diminish, bury and destroy the great body of knowlidge Im talking about does a lot more damage than the phrase sub Sahara black Africa, and pushes the racism a lot more
I can say this, Ive certainly put in my 2 cents on this subject, Ive put forth some very out of the box theories, and stated my case…I respect everyone for saying how you feel, and, I would like to see how this is going to play out in the next years….unless someone sais something about one of my points, I think I have said enough about this subject and look forward to finding if this is going to be something concemned in the long run
thanks for the diologue
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Hi B.R.
But everyone else from South America to Asia through Europe and Africa of course knows that the basis of American music is African, with all kinds of other influences interacting with each other. So who cares what “white” Americans think, as long as the world knows… African-Americans however, except those who travel (mostly musicians, btw) should be told about that, because it seems to me that many don’t know that the world knows !
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“BR,
but the people who labeled Louis Armstrong an uncle tom never came out and said “we were wrong..”, it took Wynton Marsalis coming out and condemning those attitudes and showing how silly it was to restore the real value Armstrong represents to American culture
I mean, what is your take on Loius Armstrong and tap dancing?”
Linda says,
All I know is that Louis Armstrong was a famous American musician/ trumpeter.
You asked me this before, I didn’t answer because I don’t know much about the situation you mentioned in relation to Louis Armstrong and black American society.
I am not the person to ask this question. When I first moved to the US, I would hear black Americans calling Jamaicans/ Caribbean’s “Uncle Tom” or “sell-outs” because they felt like we were kissing up to white people… I was made fun of because I spoke the “queens English”
you should be telling me why black American society called Louis Armstrong a sell out — what were the reasons behind it and what does it have to do with using the term “sub-Saharan Africa”?
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Linda, and thanks for asking, the story of Louis Armstrong and the black American militant wing of the civil rights movement, is explained very well on the Ken Burns docu about jazz, and , the militants were saying Louis Armstrong was shucking and jiving and Toming for the white man, so , you know exactly how that feels….I dont really know why , I could only make guesses, except I know that is exactly what political agendas can do when they arnt on point, bury culture..and I never agreed with that about Armstrong, I knew it wasnt right
And, my point about the political agenda of making sub Sahara Africa a racist term, very well elaborated by African Holocaust,is, it is sluffing over cultural aspects of the people who brought us these concepts…culture gets buried in favor of a political agenda, an agenda that might not even be agreed with by all Africans for various of reasons and ive seen Africans coming into this blog , very angry at Arab enroads into their culture
And, the funny thing about words and phrases ( not written ideas) related to racist issues, take a look at the worst word of them all for in the American lexicon of racist words, the “n word”, after it is shamed and even the white racists realised they just couldnt use it in public and not be scrutinised, the word snuck in the back door and sat right in on our living rooms on our tv’s and cd players….by trying to censor and relagate this word to the lowest of depths, it comes back with a vengance and haunts us….which Im not judging Im only saying its the truth..and confusing…thats what happens when people try to superimpose agendas on words or phrases and make them the focus instead of the actual racism…that is my opinion
Bulanik, I was actualy addressing Cornila, also, about the words, because she put an argument out about it…but Im glad you are on board with my concepts, I thought it would be an uphill battle about showing these ancient rhythm dance concepts Im talking about are organic , intuitive expresions of what quantum physics, fractals and Mandlebrot’s formula, and his “finger print of God” is trying to express also in Western terms…I was thinking I could buck for a Nobel on that, make it my lifes accomplishment and retire….
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Where ? About what ?
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Just re-read this by Kwamla addressing Linda:
Now I am really confused as to what exactly you think, Kwamla. (I’m not saying that I don’t understand… hmm, okay ? I’m saying your explanations are contradictory)
I thought differences should be acknowledged, and now I see that “race” could serve as a “positively unifying concept”.
Why on earth would the fact that everyone adheres to a single vision of him/her his/her culture together with others on the basis of their physical appearance be positive ? I don’t get it. Why am I reproached with “not acknowledging difference” because I reject the ideology of “race” then ?
Also, in your view, which of both would be “positive”: the rejection or the acceptance of this globally imposed ideological mythology of white supremacy”
Please enlighten me on exactly what you mean here.
And finally, if white supremacy is mythology, then “whiteness” is a myth, so all simultaneously created “races” are myths too, no ?
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“BR,
And, my point about the political agenda of making sub Sahara Africa a racist term, very well elaborated by African Holocaust,is, it is sluffing over cultural aspects of the people who brought us these concepts…culture gets buried in favor of a political agenda, an agenda that might not even be agreed with by all Africans for various of reasons and ive seen Africans coming into this blog , very angry at Arab enroads into their culture”
Linda says,
then you and I agree on this point because to me, this term “sub-Saharan Africa” does just that — it buries the black African history of north Africa due to European and Arab political agendas and kicks their ancestors out of their own history in favor of the true “foreigners”
Education and awareness is what is missing in modern day society… especially in young people.
you speak of the “n” word coming back to haunt through Hip Hop — you hit the nail on the head with that one. Hip hop artists call it “owning or taking the sting out the word”– which is a bunch of BS, pure ignorance at it’s best !!
That why “words” are and continue to be a dangerous tool and when fool’s get an opportunity to push their agenda, it does Alot of harm.
look at the whole controversy with Lil’ Wayne and Emmet Till’s family…why would this a’s even think to use Emmet Till’s violent death as a way to highlight his sexual proclivities…
http://www.vibe.com/article/emmett-till-family-go-after-lil-waynes-mountain-dew-deal
This is what happens when you mix unaware black young people with words and money — Ignorance of this magnitude is what threatens black and brown people because they have no concept of how white supremacy has shaped the world they live in.
and if they are aware, then people like lil’ Wayne just took a big s’it on the political agenda of his black American forefathers, who died so that he can sit up and embrace “words created by white supremacy” — he is doing the work for modern racist…who are probably sitting back and laughing their a’ses off
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Cornlia, “I think that “attacking words” is also showing what certain cultures (in the case of racism A certain culture or group of “sub-cultures” -that is branches of a main culture) DO USE WORDS to subjugate others” I brought up words ,you said that etc , answering what I said about “racist actions being more powerful than words”, it wasnt arguing, except that I use “black” in “sub Sahara black Africa”…which you dont agree with …Linda accepts “black”, but, has arguments against “sub Sahara”
Yes, jazz musicians realised that they could get more tours in Europe and Japan, France , of course , the jazz afficiondos there, knew exactly the foundations in American music…
Yes, Linda, I agree the West, by trying to erase black Africans in North Africa are running their cultural agenda, but, African Holocaust is answering it using his political agenda, and , both of them dont address the need to have a focus on the cultures Im talking about , that originated below the Sahara,that bring us this incredible knowledge…I would never say there were no black Africans in North Africa, and I have no arguments against early Egypt was black, and, I totaly support your arguments about this , in the same breath I would acknowledge this incredible body of knowledge that can be seen on youtubes, where it comes from and what the people look like who gave us these cultures
here is more on the Louis Armstrong
http://www.socialaffairsunit.org.uk/blog/archives/000283.php
Again, I will be noting in the future where international intent of this phrase goes and I will remember our discusions here with everyone…
I do understand the points politicly being made and I certainly am for Africa overcoming colonialism and exploiting of its recources…of course one of its greatest recources is the people and their culture…from all over Africa
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@ Linda
I couldn’t agree with you more. It’s a crying shame. It is beyond ignorant that the the gansta rap culture embraces such a vile word to mean a sign of love, huh??? My nigg@ (I cringe every time no matter who uses it). Lil Wayne is a lost cause.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wD-UpHlB9no)
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Linda, so true…
It’s so sad. I don’t know if they are laughing, but the majority is just living the happy life not having to deal with the BS most dark-skinned people have to that stem from their own behavior.
I have had discussions with students, family and friends on this… This is really a reflection of how deep the manipulation goes, to make people think they are “having fun”, “mastering irony” when all they’re doing is playing the game that was imposed on them.
When you hear young French kids say “but *they* say it, so why shouldn’t we ?” after you’ve tried to explain that these words are racist… what more weapons do you have as a “white” woman ? Contradict “Black” people who say it’s okay to call each other “n..” ? And mind you, in France, they are actually using the ENGLISH version too ! All of it “Négro” (which is the same as ->), “N…”, “Nègre” (which is old fashioned and deemed not racist -I don’t see how, by miracle, maybe?-) and even Arab kids are now using “Bougnoul” (one of the worst racist insult against North Africans in France) which is actually a WOLOF word meaning “black” ! It represents the “color”, not people, but French colonists started to use it to describe the natives and then it migrated to North Africa (with the colonists, I guess) and then France.
Racists in France (neo-nazis) have invented a new story for it: I had students with neo-nazis parents in some of my classes who told me: “Madame, it’s not racist, it means “paysant””. Huh ? “Yes, my dad told me it’s an old word to designate French country people”. Wth ! Words are definitely the core of racist manipulation.
Oh and I already mentioned somewhere the use of the word “black” (in English) as a replacement of “noir”, which apparently carries a more “cool” aspect as it refers to America and not Africa, it seems…
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Lifelearner,
Thank you for that video.
Its worth reposting so it just pops up.
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“Cornelia,
When you hear young French kids say “but *they* say it, so why shouldn’t we ?” after you’ve tried to explain that these words are racist… what more weapons do you have as a “white” woman ? Contradict “Black” people who say it’s okay to call each other “n..” ? And mind you, in France, they are actually using the ENGLISH version too !”
Linda says,
And this is what I mean when I say that “people don’t live in a vacuum”… because of popular culture, word travels faster.
I never even heard the n-word being spoken until I moved to the US — now, I’ve seen young Slovakian and Hungarians singing the n-word with their favorite Hip Hop song… people who have never travelled outside of Europe, can barely speak English, and has never met anyone who was “black” but they now know for a fact that “n’gger’ refers to black people — thanX to Hip Hop.
What a great legacy — Malcolm X and Marcus G would be so proud.
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You know I often think of the millions of Africans deported and cry. That’s my way of praying for them. I cannot condone racism in ANY way because of that. I can never forgive what my ancestors have done. And I feel so sad when I see rappers (and I listen to hip hop but the type that says “I don’t wanna be called yo nigger”) do that. It’s much less prevalent in French hip-hop, where (as in all French songs) lyrics cannot be simple, otherwise they sound stupid. When students asked me to translate American songs into French, they would go “Aaah, that’s what it says…” in a disappointed tone at the translation.
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Abagong the phrase with the nword is the title PE’s song, I didn’t think of moderation when writing it, all the more since we don’t cut words in French… so I have to remember. But the word in the original song is not cut, so…
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I actually wrongly quoted Public Enemy’s phrase: it ends in “-a”, not “-er”
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All I can say is I know white people shouldnt use the n word, I dont feel it is up to me to tell anyone black, who is dealing with their own way to difuse the word, what they should do…in some ways , being able to laugh and abuse the word , that meant so much horror in the past, is one way for a person to confront it…the Last Poets had poems in the late 60’s , using it…is it ok for Francais Ford Copala to use it God Father 1, under the guise that , that is how the people would sound?…all I can say is, I wouldnt use it in any way. that is all I can say with conviction, but, Ive lost any judgement about what is right and wrong with it , today, the way it is thrown around in all fasions , even won some Oscars…but, this is how you cant really focus on words, in my opinion, they are too likley to come back and haunt youin the most bizzarre of fasions, if you try to surpress them or attach a meaning to them that could be knocked over…go after intent…go after actions that prove the racism..again , my opinion
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Hmm, interesting conversation here.
Bulanik, so how does “sub” operate differently from “black” in that “American racism” context ?
Personally I’ve said it above, I think it’s worse. I still need to be convinced of the opposite by objective fact.
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^ “black” is worse, I meant, in the “American racism” (and European too, which is more “subtly” used).
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So the actions of african americans do matter and now it has global effects.
Been against the n-word long time but its amazing many african americans use it ,but whats even more amazing is how many so call progressive pro black people who say they really care use it.
commenter Sondis posted a audio by the producer of Hidden Colors 2- The Triumph of Melanin (2012) Documentary – a documentary allegedly about the positive contributions black africans throughout history – but because two african american females disagreed with him on some issue ,HIS words to disparage them immediately involves the n-word.
I parted ways from a so called progressive black blog because when I criticized the eurocentric images of a african american couple celebrating a european holiday – guest what word came up in reference to me.
I am now wary of even the so-called progressive blacks who say one thing but under any type of serious pressure are no different than those they so complain about.
That video up there by commenter linda
yeah I felt it ,I also felt the superficiality of the majority of the audience.And at the end a standing ovation was not of interest nor appropriate, I only felt contempt.
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Sounds damn racist
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“Sub-Saharan” is a racist term. Racists will defend its use. It’s the same as a white person saying that he can/should be allowed to use the word “Nigger/Nigga” because some Black person that they know says it.
This “B.R.” is perfect example. Throw in the usual obfuscation of the debate at hand with minutiae unrelated to the subject at hand (b…but..they taught me music and they’re African!!11) and you’ve got the trick. Standard fare with whites when they speak on race issues.
You never saw whites referring to anything in Africa as “Sub Saharan” until they got there, defaced every (Ancient) Egyptian monument with distinctly Negroid features, created fake busts, and whitewashed all of history to justify their 5-century long crusade of racism across this world, with “Christianity” as a cherry on top.
You write good, Abagond. I like this blog. I’ve been lurking for a while (month) now. I’ve learned quite a bit here. I don’t know why I haven’t learned to take the white opinion on racism with a grain of salt.
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[…] The following brilliant post is reblogged from […]
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Yes, sub-saharan is racist. White people have been dividing Africa far too long.
Why can’t they just be African. They are all black people. We don’t come in shade of color like whites. We range from the fairest light to the darkest black. Moreover, I feel the US should change the race box that states, ” White as people originating from Europe, Middle East and North Africa. Because North Africans aren’t White nor are Middle Eastern people. Because if the Gnawa people come to the US they would be considered White. However, I guarantee you that the US will deny them, and tell them to choose African American. Which all people who come from Africa should classified as regardless of region. Moreover, the people in the middle east are actually living in Asia not Europe. Essentially, if you’re from egypt, Morocco, Tunisa, Chad, or any part of Africa, and moved to the US, you should be classified as African American. Because it is accurate.
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@Sultan
“Moreover, I feel the US should change the race box that states, ” White as people originating from Europe, Middle East and North Africa…Because if the Gnawa people come to the US they would be considered White.”
Good point. And it reminds me of Dr. Mostafa Hefny, a black Egyptian immigrant whom the U.S. classifies as white but who wants to be reclassified as black.
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Sub sharan is a racist term my family is from Niger and if people actually looked at the satellite map of Africa you will see the Niger is part of the Sahara and so is places like Mali and Sudan.
Yet when I was reading reviews of books that are set in those countries they say it’s sub saharan how the fuck does that even work. On the cover of the book it was of the desert. It wasn’t the Namib desert it was the sahara so it’s a stupid racist term like that picture above of native North Africans. Just because the people with most power in those country are Arab because of colonisation doesn’t mean that they do not exist or never existed.
I mean that’s like saying that because North America is white dominated the Native never existed.
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Oh for fucks sake, the whole eurocentrism is bad and everything is named racist argument again… it’s actually very easy,: If you draw the map, you get to pic the center and to name the stuff on it! Ancient chinese maps have china in the middle ancient roman maps have rome in the middle. We choose the european variant because europe ruled most of our world for most of the last millenium. By the way the point of the sub-sahara/northern africa thing is, that it devides the northern high cultures (egypt, karthage) from the southern tribal cultures. Live with it. You americans should finally stop bitching about stuff you don’t understand, try calling a Lybian, a Algerian or an Egyptian black for example, he’ll punch your ami ass the very second.
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We white people are so sorry for everything that we and our ancestors have ever done. Feel free to return all of our innovations in science & technology, government and culture;
If we are so inherently evil, then render unto Caesar what is Caesars’.
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Oh but Matt…I don’t think you realize what all you would be returning to blacks in inventions and what not. That is where the funny park comes in.
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@ Matt
What in the world does that have to do with whether or not “sub-Saharan Africa” is a racist term?
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I don’t think you realize what all you would be returning to blacks in inventions and what not.
If that means Miley would stop twerking then it’s a deal!
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@Da Jokah
Why am I actually not surprised that you don’t know of anything otherwise?
It is too funny how much whites take for granted without knowing what was and was not invented by blacks.
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The idea that “sub-Saharan Africa” is a racist term is absurd. Are “sub-zero” and “sub-tropical” racist terms, too? How about up north, down south, out west and back east? Are those racist terms? That anyone would even make such a claim is evidence of mental instability.
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If we are so inherently evil, then render unto Caesar what is Caesars’.
What the salad? Caesar can have it!
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Of course it is racist, that’s why anti Black/African bigots love using it every chance they get. People like “@Da Jokah” above is either confused or in denial pretending not to know the difference between its geographic reference and its reference to “Black Africa”, which the latter is the context its been used in 99% of the time. Its nothing more than a meaningless fallacy and a racist euro-centric myth.
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In no way is Sub-Saharan a racist term. It may have implications associated with the region’s dark history (e.g., The Congo remains a depressing centre human depravity because of the Belgians), but that does not mean the term is racist. It denotes a geographic term reflecting an internationally recognized map. Although the ancient Persians may have drawn maps with the South pole facing upwards, this is not the current system. I term remains useful because the Sahara was nearly impassable for thousands of years and isolated the cultures that developed there until the introduction of Islam in the Western coast. Although various ethnic and religious groups inhabit the regions, the countries share a history of oppressive colonialism and a post-colonialist tailspin into stagnation (e.g., South Africa) or regression (e.g., Sierra Leon). The term may carry implications and use a “north-pole is up”-map, but it is helpful division for talking about Africa. One last point, I am highly educated and recognize that the messed-up state of the majority of the region can be directly traced to colonialism, and also am aware of the successful countries in the region. The region’s success can, however, be counted on one hand (i.e., Ghana, Botswana, Zambia, Ethiopia).
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Blacks were mummifying their dead over five thousand years ago in the Sahara Libya, and still lived in all north African countries and rest of the Sahara where they are the natives, like they did for thousands of years ago.
So your idea that – “the Sahara was nearly impassable for thousands of years and isolated the cultures that developed there until the introduction of Islam in the Western coast” – is noting but a blatant and racist lie.
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Black African groups, most famously the Berbers, existed and still do exist along Africa’s Mediterranean coast, but that does not invalidate my point. Those cultures still exist North of the Sahara and did not require moving through the desert to contact other North African peoples. Additionally I doubt that there is a link between Egyptian embalmment and Libyan mummification, almost every desert culture discovered the mummifying power of sand. My claims about the Sahara being virtually impassable are still true (e.g., domesticated camels crossed in 2000 years, whereas the domestication of the camel was universal in the Mediterranean world after a hundred years), and certainly not racist in any way. The claim being racist would require a belief that this was somehow the fault of the people living in sub-Saharan Africa, a clearly ridiculous statement.
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I had thought of this previously and am surprised to find someone else thought of this also. If we don’t call the area under Canada Sub-Candadian and the are under Russian Sub-Russia or the area in Asia under Mongolia, Sub-Mongolia…why are we allowing outsiders to call areas in our Mother Continent Sub-Anything? If other people don’t understand that then they should start subbing other parts of the world and see how that goes. Don’t allow others to label you. It’s as bad as continuing to call Native Australians Aborigines. Or Kangaroos (“gangurru”) kangaroos. Or do you really think that the Muskogee tribe of that Nation is called Creek? Or that the “Indians” were the original people in America? Stop calling us what you want and think it is OK.
If you introduce yourself as Bob and I always call you Mahvdi, you would think I was a half wit. Hmmmm. Nuff said.
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I don’t think the term is racist but wrongly used. I would rather blame it to ignorance. Sub-Saharan Africa is a geographic word but in the context of Economics, it has been changed. Many at times South Africa is excluded from Sub Saharan Economic analysis.
With respect to the word being geographical, it would mean having geographical feature e.g. climate, topography etc similar to those of the Saharan. Going by this some of the North African countries can be termed Sub Saharan with these countries have similar climatic and topographical representations.
But in economic analysis, the term has widely been misused. One can either say Western, Eastern, Central or Southern Africa but saying Sub Saharan excluding South Africa and North Africa raises doubts and questions. You hear of Western Europe, East Asia, Middle East, North America but never Sub Europe or Sub America…. At the end of the day it is a word coined by the IMF and World Bank to deal with a certain group of people..
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Im done ever looking at your blog. You make everything a racial issue. North africa is culturally closer to the middle east the congo
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@ Bobby
If you think “sub-Saharan Africa” is somehow a cultural region, it is not, as I pointed out in the post. Also, some things ARE racial. This is one of them.
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genetic tests have shown that arab speaking north africans are closer biologically to europeans than africans who love south of the sahara. Thats not racist – its a scientific fact
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@ Bobby
Biologically?
Is that why genetic tests show that Southern Europeans have up to 20% African ancestry, a portion of it definitely from south of the Sahara?
By “arab speaking” do you mean Arabic-speaking non-Arabs, who have Arabic as a second language, like the Arabized Amazigh? Or are you referring to a mixed population at the crossroads of Africa, Europe and Asia who you want to say are whites?
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@ Bobby
Could you share your scientific genetic tests to show the biological closeness of North Africans to Europeans?
I hope it there is a section on the diverse Imazighen population.
I am waiting for your “biological” explanation of how two supposedly racial groups sit within a single ethnic group, one black and the other white.
Thanks.
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Look. I’m Irish, my people were enslaved and colonized too. They suffered just as much, if not more than blacks. But I don’t try to claim English, Welsh, or Scottish achievements as “Irish”. What you are doing is no different. You’re people were oppressed a long time ago, and so you try to claim others as your own. In fact, Colonizers are gone from Africa completely, not so with Ireland.
https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/overview-of-regions-and-closest-populations/reference-populations/
Egyptians are 65% Mediterranean (white) 18% Southwest Asian (Borderline white) and 14 Sub-saharan African (nonwhite). So, according to the one-drop rule they would be black. However, they do not look black, and the most important thing in determining your race is how you look, not exact ancestry. Since Egyptians don’t look Black, they are not considered Black.
And Berbers is the proper name, not Imazighen. Use common names if you want to be understood.
And Sicilians are only 2% black, they are 98% white.
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@Bobby
Your american education is really going to hurt you here. ^smh
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Please actually address the points I made instead of an ad hominem attack.
Even abagond admits that Southern Italians and Portuguese are only 3% black and Spaniards are only 2% black. None of those are “up to 20% African ancestry, a portion of it definitely from south of the Sahara?” as Bulanik claims.
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@Bobby
I think it is best that you define words such as “ad hominem” before trying to apply them to every situation. You turned a simple sentence into me rejecting something and I have yet to address what I am planning to. So it is best that you not start out assuming because I would hate for you to make an ass out of u and me. 🙂
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@Bobby
I am not sure what makes you think berber is the proper term for them when according to my source
“Berbers call themselves some variant of the word i-Mazigh-en (singular: a-Mazigh), possibly meaning “free people” or “free and noble men”.[6] The word has probably an ancient parallel in the Roman and Greek names for some of the Berbers, “Mazices”. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imazighen
What is more proper than what they call themselves? This is precisely what I mean by your American education getting you into trouble. Your false belief that you can define and refer to people in terms that they would not themselves. Particularly your claim on who is white and who is not. Most of those people would not consider themselves to be white, as race is nothing more than a political and social construct used to divide people on superficial features. One in which Americans go around the world to try to make people white or black. *rolls eyes*
It also stands to reason that certain mixtures would have a higher or lower percentage centuries ago compared to recent. People particularly love to argue the race of Egyptians and most agree that race (by today’s standards) can not be determined for people that lived centuries ago. Now if you have a source that can account for racial mixtures in the AD and so forth then I would like to see it. Should be an interesting read.
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and before I go. I read somewhere Sicilians have about 4.4% African genes not 2%. I also read 10% but I would have to doubt check on the information. Now if you will excuse me. I need to catch up on American horror story.
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@ Bobby, are you sure of what you are saying? You say you are Irish, but I have never heard an Irish person, in Ireland, speak like you do.
You cite biology, and then you jump to claiming “achievements” based on colour. What are you really getting at?
You say about the Irish that:
Hold up. Which of the Irish provinces are you based — Ulster/ Northern Ireland.
And when you say “your people”, who and what people do you mean — do you mean the continent of Africa, the people in the Diaspora — what, and who?
What you are saying doesn’t make sense because the Irish are often unusually understanding about the way oppression works and wouldn’t normally say “we have suffered more than any other person of colour”.
Explain what you mean, please, when you say “your people” are trying to claim something which isn’t their own…
Huh? How are we talking about Egyptians? Modern day Egyptians aren’t Ancient Egyptians. What do you mean?
And since you know the precise appearance and DNA details of millions of Egyptians, then why do the Irish claim that mixed race Irish people like Paul McGrath or Phil Lynott is black and or mixed race, but NEVER “white”?
(Paul McGrath is a retired Irish defender/footballer, fantastic player.
Phil Lynott was a rock singer.)
Both are probably probably as “white” as an Egyptian, right?
*
Do you think the correct word for the Imazighen is “Berbers”?
Are you serious?
If that is so, then “paddies” is the correct word for the Irish.
Berber comes from “barbarian” and was imposed onto the Imazighen peoples.
The call themselves by a name other than barbarian…
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Bobby, do you believe Southern Europe starts and ends with Italy?
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excuse may errors in my post in regards to isn’t instead of is and double instead of doubt.
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You’re still clear in what you say.
Bobby says he is Irish, but he’s probably American.
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George Ryder
*rolls eyes at entire comment*
You have yet to come to the realization that not all commenters are A) American B) black and C) rely on google search as the source of knowledge.
White individual s such as yourself typically confuse facts with opinion. Don’t have a thorough grasp on the sources you use and are often taken back when they are explained to you by one of color. This leads to you always whining about people not liking facts. Sorry but it is people not liking idiots using facts they don’t really understand.
My personal pet peeve is Americans applying American logic to everything. Consider I am American it kills me to have people display us as slow…
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“What is more proper than what they call themselves?” By that logic, the proper name for China is 中华人民共和国.
Every language has its own words for countries, ethnicities, even some historical figures. This is natural, just as every language has it’s own word for apples.
Barbarian comes from the Greek word “barbaros” a neutral word meaning “foreigner.” It came to English through Latin.
Berber comes from the Arabic word “barbar” which also comes from “barbaros”.
So, yes they have the same word root, but Berber is not derived from barbarian, nor does it have the same negative connotation.
And I am not northern Irish. I am an American of 3/4 Irish Catholic and 1/4 Goan Portuguese descent (Portuguese Goans had their land conquered and most of them left under duress. A crime by nonwhites to whites. Not all racists are white, and not all whites are racist.)
I have absolutely no sympathy for Northern Ireland. I want Irish reunification under an all Irish Catholic government.
And Irish are not “people of color” even though they were treated worse than nonwhites. We are white.
But Africa, unlike Ireland, is not still partially ruled by the colonizers.
I would suggest reading this, before you say Blacks were treated worse than the Irish.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-irish-slave-trade-the-forgotten-white-slaves/31076
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@Bobby
Your post was a well constructed avoidance speech. WE all are well aware that every country has its own words for things, but that does not give you the right to tell people what they can and can not call these things. That is called Americans stupid logic. Where they tell you what is proper they themselves don’t even know what is proper.
You might feel you have some claim or say because you have Irish blood line, but guess what???? So do I. I just don’t use it as a means to say “hey I had it just as bad” or “Hey you have no right to talk about etc because I have Irish in me.” Hey I guess I have it triple bad because of my Indian, black, and Irish blood line. *rolls eyes*
“And Irish are not “people of color” even though they were treated worse than nonwhite”—No one said the Irish was considered people of color but they also did not consider themselves white and nor did the Europeans of that time period. Like I said it is only Americans that run around claiming everything to be black and white.
“I would suggest reading this, before you say Blacks were treated worse than the Irish.”—According to your own source they were treated about the same. The different being one had more serve as slaves and for longer.
Do better research on the matter and stop using sources to prop your opinion.
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Just to quickly add barbarous has a few meanings and it really depends on the context. Since you used “foreigner” I would like to take the time to direct you to this quote and text…
“used by the Greeks of any foreigner ignorant of the Greek language, whether mental or moral, with the added notion after the Persian war, of rudeness and brutality.” http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/barbaros.html
If you have something that says otherwise I welcome you to provide it, but it is deceitful at best to provide only partial information in any discussion.
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Getting back to the issue of Sub-Saharan Africa being racist, I still disagree with the invalidity of the sahara desert as a division. The truth is that Sub-Saharan Africa is a useful term with a different meaning than Black Africa. One would think that Black Africa would include those countries who are Black, rather than those which share culture and history (e.g., Sudan would be included in Black Africa, but not in Sub-Saharan Africa). Although it is a mystery to me why the definition of Sub-Saharan Africa includes Somalia, Eritrea, Djibouti, and Ethiopia, The majority of Sub-Saharan African countries have many similarities. The Sub-Saharan peoples, again excluding the Horn of Africa, actually were separated from the developments of the Hellenic, Roman, and Islamic worlds. Islam did spread to West Africa, but only after over 200 years of crossing through the desert. Although the Sahara was not an impenetrable barrier, it did serve to separate the Sub-Saharan world from changes in the North. Sub-Saharan Africa did develop many technologies and empires, but the fact that these technologies were developed independently only reinforces the idea that Sub-Saharan Africa was separated from the rest of the world. The fact that Sub-Saharan Africa ended up as a technologically undeveloped, tribal place compared to the rest of the world was not their fault, but it was because they were unable to participate it the active exchange of ideas and inventions (AKA: stealing other people’s inventions) that EurAsia was. As for your theory that the word “sub-” implies an inferiority, the other geographic feature important enough to divide a landmass is the Arctic, with the Nordic countries, Russia, and Canada being called sub-arctic countries. I am, however, equally as mystified as Abagond as to why Mauritania is called a sub-Saharan nation besides the capital being in the Sahel.
I also know that I am disagreeing with the page, so I would like to end with being a Canadian who is half- first nations and half- polish.
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@Sam
“I also know that I am disagreeing with the page, so I would like to end with being a Canadian who is half- first nations and half- polish”—LOL
I have a question. Is Sub-Saharan Africa just all black people or is the a misconception that people have?
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I put Sam’s comment in moderation. She is a sock puppet.
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Dang. You have been flooded with them in the last few months
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Bobby, you seem like a nice person.
The BBC put out a documentary called “Motherland: A Genetic Journey”
I think this is an eye opener for us who are looking into DNA. Follow the young Black male’s story. If you are unbiased, you might just learn something. My son had the same dilemma. I am African American and my son had no African DNA in his haplogroup-R. I had him to watch this on You Tube.
The program is in different parts, unless you can find the complete program on the BBC channel.
It is on You Tube as “Motherland: A Genetic Journey”
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About 1 in every 3 african american men has a white european y chromosome. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr was one of them
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And I’m fine with you calling the Berbers whatever you want, just please don’t tell me it’s not Correct.
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@bobby
Need I remind it that it was you telling others in here what was the “proper” term for Berbers? Not once did I say your term was wrong, but I did imply that it was just as proper as your term to use others. So you can save the victimhood because I so despise people who use it as a crutch.
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Ok.
But the Irish suffered far more than the Africans ever did.
Here’s why:
About 16.5% of Ireland is still occupied by the colonizer.
None of Africa is still occupied by the colonizers.
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Sharina and Bulanik,
glad to see you doing your thing… makes less work for me and as we all know, ignorance is not OK when it is rampant and misapplied.
Bobby,
I won’t jump on you as another poster will have you believe– interesting article you brought in — I like the simplicity of it, colour coded and easy to read…
but what I will do is just bring in a little more “in-depth study” of the Egyptians and their genetic makeup
As we all should know by now, the modern Egyptians are a “mixed-race” group of people and are not “white” based on the standard that is typically used today–meaning they are not “European white” because in this day and age, that’s what the term “white” really stands for…white European
no one can look at an Egyptian and confuse them for a white person, they look just like any mixed-race/mestizo Latino or mixed-race African American like Halle Berry.
if the Egyptians are “white”, then so are Ethiopians and other east Africans, who also carry “Eurasian” DNA — that’s why the question of which way migration “out of Africa” or back into Africa is still up for discussion —
Article from a anthropologist who I have no love for (way too Eurocentric for my taste) but she attempts to try to be unbiased at times:
Egyptians are not Arabs, they are Egyptians.
“Southern Egyptians Y Chromosomes are mainly native to Africa , both sub and supra Saharan. This makes a grand total of 80.3% definitively African non-Arab ancestry in the upper Egypt region. Y chromosomes possibly attributable to Arab males are very much in the minority in this area
Northern Egyptians are a bit more cosmopolitan in their ancestry 64.8% indigenous African. About 20% of the Y chrom0somes are near Eastern in origin, and 10.5 % are R Y chromosomes. However, some of these near eastern and European Y chromosomes show an ancient entry to Africa (G, K2, R1, R1b are 8,000 BP and older) and any historical contribution from foreign men is more likely to be in the 15% area.
As for the maternal inheritance; this is more varied. From a study at Gurna (of modern upper Egyptians):
H 14.7%, I 5.9%, J 5.9%, L1a 11.7% , L1e 5.9%, L2a 2.9%, M1 17.6% , N1b 8.8%, T 5.9%, U 8.8% U3 2.9%, U4 5.9% ,L3*(a) 5.9%, L3*(b) 2.9%, Other 2.9%.
Of these, the L haplotypes are typically sub Saharan (23.7%), M1 and U are ancient Eurasian, present at least 30,000 years”
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@Bobby
That is not suffering. I am sorry but your logic is weak and that of a white american male once again trying to apply his logic to what the rest of the world thinks, believes etc. As to your 16.5% do you mind providing your source as I have not found anything that says such. You may also want to take some time to research Africa because the colonizers still occupy it.
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All nations on the African continent are either independent or occupied by other African states, not former colonial powers (Western Sahara, occupied by Morocco, not Spain, the former colonial ruler).
Here’s my source:
http://www.gov.ie/en/essays/geography.html
“The Republic of Ireland occupies 70,282 sq. km. of the island of Ireland which has a total area of 84,421 sq. km.”
70282/84421=0.83251797538527. Rounded to the nearest half number, that is 83.5% of Ireland under Irish rule.
100-83.5=16.5
That’s where I got the number from.
“That is not suffering” – yes it is, having almost 1/6 of your country ruled by a colonizing power is suffering, a suffering that modern-day Africa does not experience.
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@Bobby
I am not one to play games and frankly it would be nice if you would not either.
You claimed and allow me to quote it for you ” Ireland is still occupied by the colonizer.” Is there some confusion on the difference between occupy and rule? If there is then I will gladly explain it. As per what you originally claimed, the colonizers actually still live (occupy) in Africa. In fact I just read a nice article on White African American, whose ancestors live and colonized sub Saharan Africa and who has now herself moved to America.
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one more thing to add. It is only suffering as your opinion. Not a real and actual suffrage. Talk to me about Ireland still suffering when they are starving, having their kids stripped from them for the hell of it, or something that really consists of them lacking basic human rights. Not simply because they are under a rule that you believe they don’t like.
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@Sharina – At least 42% of the people in Northern Ireland are of English or Scottish descent. The colonizers still inhabit Ireland as well.
“Not simply because they are under a rule that you believe they don’t like.”
57% want a reunited Ireland – fact, not my opinion (although I do support reunification.
“they are starving, having their kids stripped from them for the hell of it, or something that really consists of them lacking basic human rights” – that’s not white people’s fault. That is their own fault.
“As per what you originally claimed, the colonizers actually still live (occupy) in Africa. In fact I just read a nice article on White African American, whose ancestors live and colonized sub Saharan Africa and who has now herself moved to America.”
Afrikaners are just as African as the Zulu.
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@Bobby
You are talking to over compensate for your lack of real knowledge on the situation and I really just want you to stop. Take a deep breath and take the information as a learning experience rather than a trying to prove to me you know this or that.
I am not the one arguing who has it worse. That is you and you alone. I could careless who is inhabiting Ireland. I simply don’t think they are suffering simply because they are being occupied by some possibly unwanted guest who only takes up about 16.5% of land.
“57% want a reunited Ireland – fact, not my opinion (although I do support reunification.”—That is great but with facts come sources and I prefer to have those because I like seeing the information for myself. On top of that I am not against a united Ireland, but that is not equal to them suffering or saying they are suffering.
“that’s not white people’s fault. That is their own fault.”—That quote was not about white or black people or anyone else. It was about what I consider suffering. See did I not tell you at the beginning of this that your American logic would get you hurt?
“Afrikaners are just as African as the Zulu.”—Oh but please point to where I said they weren’t or even attempted to argue such.
When you assume you make an ass of U and me. Now that you have accomplished that how do you feel?
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Bobby @ “Afrikaners are just as African as the Zulu.”
Linda says,
get the F’ck out of here with that bullsh’t!! —
you lose ALL credibility when you say dumb things like that –and you barely have any left after your initial comments.
but if you are actually attempting to say that white European South Africans are “indigenous” to the Continent of Africa, just like the Zulus — then you’re full of sh’t my friend…
Africa is a continent, just like North and South America, — so yes, Afrikaners can call themselves “Africans” if they want because they were born on that Continent but they and their ancestors are Indigenous to the continent of Europe!
The Zulus are INDIGENOUS to the continent of Africa, white South Afrikaners are “not Native or Indigenous” to the continent of Africa — the ancestors of todays white Dutch/European “Afrikaners” took a boat to Africa– they crossed an ocean and sailed to Africa — just like your Irish ancestors did…. so get real and stop wasting everyone’s time.
You, as a white American, who claims he is of Irish and “Goan Portuguese” descent, you can say “you are American” all day and that’s OK because you were born in “America”
but you ARE NOT nor were your Ancestors EVER “Native or indigenous” to the continent of North America — you could Never compare yourself to a Native American Indian
so you’re analogy of trying to compare” white European Afrikaners” to indigenous African Zulus is a joke that is not even laugh worthy!!
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http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/ireland/News/Irish_News/article421672.ece – Support is less than it used to be (for economic, not cultural reasons), but still a majority.
“As per what you originally claimed, the colonizers actually still live (occupy) in Africa.”
I took that to be a reference to white south Africans.
And having 1/6 of your country occupied is a big deal. Imagine losing 1/6 of your salary.
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@ Bobby
“And having 1/6 of your country occupied is a big deal.”—To you maybe. Salary and land are two different things and none have the same consequences if lost.
I am going to wrap this up because frankly I have no desire to go through a rinse cycle of different topics on matters that you don’t really take the time to research before you bring them up. It is more an act of seeing who gets the last word and quite frankly you are free to have it as I won’t fight you for it.
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@ Bobby
You almost had me there until you claimed that (white) Afrikaaners are as African as Zulus. That is ridiculous.
@ Sharina
Northern Ireland is still effectively an occupied territory. Native (usually Catholic) Irish people in Northern Ireland are worse off on almost every indicator. For the sake of clarity let’s refer to them as ‘Catholic’ although what I mean is people who are native to Ireland and not descendants of Protestant settlers who colonised Ireland from 1600 onward.
A couple of points:
– More Catholics are unemployed. Old figures from the internet indicate that about 36% of Northern Irish Catholics live in poverty, compared with about 25% of Protestants. This is a much slimmer gap that in previous years – in the mid 1900s about 80% of Irish Catholics were living in poverty.
– Protestants continue to have offensive ‘Orangemen’ parades through Catholic neighbourhoods, which are basically a celebration of the British conquest of Ireland. A pretty horrible thing to do. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/12/the-twelfth-parade-2013-northern-ireland_n_3585737.html)
Where I think Bobby is wrong is by claiming that the suffering of Irish people in Northern Ireland equates to that of African people in formerly colonised African countries. He was clearly wrong in making that claim.
@ Bobby
Who do you think owns the lion’s share of the oil wealth in Nigeria? Why do you think millions of Nigerians in the Niger Delta live in abject poverty in one of the most resource rich areas of the world?
The West is still colonising Africa but through more subtle means – e.g. through aid arrangements and by controlling natural resources.
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Linda @ “Get the F’ck out of here with that bullsh’t”
Bobby says,
You lose ALL credibility when you swear
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@George Ryder
I believe there was a point at some time, but a point based solely on opinions and misinformation. Once information was presented to the contrary the subject then was switch from one opinion to the next. In time allowing said individual to engage in being intellectual dishonest as a means to prove their point or be right on some particular part of the debate.
Once a person presents themselves as intellectually dishonest I usually just remove myself from the debate as it would be completely pointless and dumb on my part to proceed.
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@wordynerdygirl
Thank you for providing that information. Though I was going with the idea that one is not suffering more than the other, I was perhaps a bit wrong in that regard.
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Let me explain. Ireland is an ethnic nation state. Only ethnically Irish Catholic people are true Irishmen.
South Africa is a rainbow nation – a multiethnic state. All the ethnicities that inhabit the land are equally south African. In fact, some of the black population is descended from more recent immigrations than the Afrikaners.
I never said that the Afrikaners were just as Zulu as the Zulus are. The are just as African.
The Ulster Scots are not Irish. They are just as European as the Irish however.
The Ulster Scots have no right to be in Ireland.
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@Bobby
That is part of your problem. Coming back and explaining and putting your foot in your mouth.
“I never said that the Afrikaners were just as Zulu as the Zulus are.”—No one said you did, so you are basically putting up an argument just to argue.
Opinions are like azzholes, everyone has one and yours holds no more weight simply because you have Irish blood.
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@Sharina – why do you not think afrikaners are just as african as the zulu?
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@Bobby
I never said they were or were not. You know most people that have struck out this much usually stop.
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In fact I wish you would point to where I gave any type of opinion on what I think of afrikaners
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They are a unique African culture. The zulus were savage warriors.
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@ Bobby
What the heck do you mean by that argument? Wouldn’t you defend your homeland ‘savagely’ if it were invaded?
You are being ridiculously insensitive and you are also wrong.
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I mean the Zulus were savage to other Africans. Look up Shaka.
Just as the Germanics were Savage to the Romans.
And I’m not a troll, I’m totally serious.
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Hey Bobby, I have no patience for people like you
as I said, you are a f’cking racist moron who needs to find a f’cking hobby and get the f’ck off of this blog with your ignorance… and go find a f’cking clue!
you are an embarrassment to white racists with half a brain more than you —
Only an total racist a’shole would continue to try and compare a group of European immigrants to a group of people who are indigenous to a Continent —
do you need assistance with the meaning of the word: “indigenous”
in·dig·e·nous: originating or occurring naturally in a particular place; native.
“the indigenous peoples of Siberia” synonyms: native, original, aboriginal, autochthonous
did you teacher not teach you that word in your back of the woods American high school.
my credibility can never be shaken by an ignorant troll like yourself because everyone on this blog can read the crap that you are trying to pass off as “intellectual”
I have a lot more curse words in many languages which would increase your IQ by a few points, son….
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@Bobby
“And I’m not a troll, I’m totally serious”—And that is what makes it sad and funny.
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and Bobby, you are better off saying you are a “troll” because if you are truly serious — then you have to know that you are an intellectually dishonest racist — because you are repeating EVERY racists argument straight off the Stormfront and other clueless white “race realist” website
do you think most of us here don’t recognize you for “who and what you are” — you’re not fooling anyone…
you putting out your falsehoods into the stratosphere doesn’t change reality.
Everyone is aware that a group of people sailing a ship to move to another CONTINENT does not make them a NATIVE or indigenous to the land…
and to refresh you limited education on the subject:
The Zulus are INDIGENOUS to the continent of Africa, white South Afrikaners are “not Native or Indigenous” to the continent of Africa — the white Dutch/European “Afrikaners” are white, Europeans whose ancestors are INDIGENOUS to the continent of Europe
white south AFrikans ARE NOT native Africans… you can say it all day long, son, but their DNA says otherwise — they can always call themselves “south African” because that is the Name of the Country they were born in, on the Continent
but they are in No way, true “natives” like the Zulus or any other black/brown Indigenous African… you racist can sing it all day long but the only immigrants in South Africa are the white Europeans.
you white racists like to tell black Americans to go back to Africa because that’s where some of their ancestors come from but Guess what Bobby–
the same “logic” applies to white South Africans and white Americans–all of you can “go back to Europe” if you don’t like how things are in America or South Africa…. what’s good for the goose is good for the gander.
Having a f’cking Good Day!
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@ Linda & Bulanik & Sharina: Go in on these clowns.
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And I’m not a troll, I’m totally serious.
How’s it going Bobby or is it Bob Billy? Oh, I am totally NOT serious!
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@ Bobby, Your claim that only ethnically Irish, by which I assume you mean Gaellic, persons are true citizens of Ireland is dripping with hatred and intolerance. By your logic someone, say an immigrant from Romania, should never be considered a true Irish citizen, nor their children. Even if their children, who are in this case not ethnically Irish, will never be citizen despite speaking both English and Gaellic, and growing up in Ireland. These divisions based on race rather than nationality only lead to situations of second-class citizenship. Although you may feel that Northern Ireland is unfairly occupied, only seven percent of the voting population in the North approved the referendum that would have allowed them to reunite with Ireland. Ultimately under the law of self-determination, as dictated by the UN, the opinion of the people in the Republic of Ireland doesn’t matter in determining whether N. Ireland should be independent, only the opinion of the Northern Irish should matter, include those people who live in the North, but are not ethnically Irish.
To put the matter in a less personal note, the people who are not indigenous are still people and their voices still matter. You are partially right in Afrikaners being just as African as the Zulu. They are not as African — obviously, what with their being ethnically Netherlandish — but the Afrikaners are just as much citizens of South Africa as the Zulu. And the Han Chinese living in Tibet should have just as much voice in whether they want Tibet to be independent as the ethnic Tibetans.
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“you white racists like to tell black Americans to go back to Africa because that’s where some of their ancestors come from but Guess what Bobby–”
I’m not racist and I don’t want black Americans to go back to Africa. One of my best friends is Chinese American. I love people of all races
“Ultimately under the law of self-determination, as dictated by the UN, the opinion of the people in the Republic of Ireland doesn’t matter in determining whether N. Ireland should be independent, only the opinion of the Northern Irish should matter, include those people who live in the North, but are not ethnically Irish.”
If that rule applies Nazi soldiers had as much right as ethnic Poles to decide if they wanted Poland to be a part of Germany.
And only Ethnically Irish people’s opinion matters in terms of Northern Ireland. The others are foreign occupiers.
Just as an all-Afrikaner government in south africa is wrong
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Bobby, your claims of being non-racist are unbelievable…
How could you be a supporter of a “free” North Ireland but then turn around and be a cheerleader for the descendants of the white European occupiers (Boers/Afrikaners) who invaded South Africa
and you turn around and talk sh’t about the Africans, and attempt to perpetuate white South Afrikan/Boer LIES.
you do realize that the IRA had ties to the black South African ANC:
“THE IRA helped carry out one of the biggest bomb attacks against the South African apartheid government in the early 1980s, according to the memoirs of former senior ANC activist and politician Kader Asmal.”
the Boer-regime {white south Afrikan) directly engaged in state-sponsored terrorism in Ireland through the supply of weapons, explosives and money to British terror factions in the country during the 1980s and ’90s.”
so to me, your sentiments marks you as American and a racist–
if the Zulus were “savage warriors” back in the 1800’s, then the Irish Republican Army (IRA) of the 20th century were savages as well.
(and for anyone who doesn’t know: North Ireland was occupied by the English in 1600’s, and the native Gaelic Irish (who were Catholics) had their lands taken away and given to Scottish and English protestants– the protestant settlers soon outnumbered the Gaelic Irish Catholics– so in essence: the native/indigenous Gaelic Irish became minorities in their own ancestral country
The Irish had always fought against the British for their independence and in 1960’s, “The Troubles” began when civil rights marches by Northern Irish Catholics for equal housing, voting, and economic rights was broken up violently by the British–leading to the armed conflict between Catholic and Protestant armed forces)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/troubles
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and also Bobby,
I’m sorry, but to me, Afrikaners are not real or true Africans — the same way an Englishman is not an Irishman. Being a citizen of the UK does not turn a Scott or a Welshman into a Englishman.
Boers/Afrikaners are South Africans, sure.. the same way you and others born in USA are “Americans” but the only REAL Americans are the First Nation people (Native American Indians) who had their lands invaded and taken away in North and South America.
It seems the Northern Irish can tell the difference between the white South Africans and the black South Africans – a distinction you as an American Irish-descendant can’t seem to understand.
At Nelson Mandela’s funeral, the leader of Sinn Fein, Gerry Adams, got a bigger welcome and applause than the British Monarch, Prince Charles, because the black South Africans, (the only native and indigenous people to South Africa), recognize their solidarity with the native/indigenous catholic Gaelic Irish in Northern Ireland.
Gerry Adams applauded as he joins ANC Guard of Honor at Mandela funeral
http://www.irishcentral.com/news/gerry-adams-applauded-as-he-joins-anc-guard-of-honour-at-mandela-funeral-235925801-237792221.html
“Adams has credited the ANC and Mandela as playing a major role during the irish peace process.
He told the Guardian: “In developing the Sinn Féin peace strategy towards the end of the 1980s and into the early 1990s, Irish republicans had recognised the importance of the international community as an ally for making progress in a peace process and as a source of inspiration and information for our own endeavours.
While much of our focus was on America, which had the greatest concentration of the Irish diaspora, Irish republicans had always had a close affinity with the struggle in South Africa.”
and FYI- in no way do I support Sinn Fein /IRA and their use of violence in Northern Ireland because many innocent people lost their lives senselessly…
Margaret Thatcher and the British hardliners should have “Thanked” Nelson Mandela for his role in getting Sinn Fein/IRA to put down their guns (the Sinn Féin Peace Process of the 1990s and early 2000s)
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@ Bobby, There is a big difference between an occupying military power, like the Nazis in Poland, and a occupying civilian power. Soldiers born in England or elsewhere should not be able to decide whether Ireland is united, but ethnically English persons living and born in N. Ireland should have a voice in determining whether N. Ireland is united. In the WWII example you gave an ethnic German living and born in Nazi-occupied Poland should have just as much right to determine the status of his country as an ethnic Pole (ignoring the fact that the Nazis would have ethnically purged the Pole and that voting for independence didn’t really exist in Nazi Europe).
Your example of an all-Afrikaner government is also off-point. I would never advocate a white-supremacist government. I simply said that in elections former occupiers, like the Boers, should be allowed to vote and influence decisions just as much as a Black South African. The same logic applies to N. Ireland, if an Ulster Scot has grown up in N. Ireland, he is just as much a citizen of Northern Ireland as a ethnically Irish man. To take your reasoning outside of Ireland, that should mean that no immigrants should ever get to vote, just because they happen not to be Irish. Your complain of the Catholic Irish being second-class citizens, but by restricting votes to a certain ethnicity you are creating the base of a truly repressive and racist system. Racist isn ‘t even the right word, because those voting restrictions are discriminatory toward all non-Irish races. The proper term here is fascist.
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Fine. I’ll go. But one day, I WILL return…
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Fine. I’ll go. But one day, I WILL return…
That’s what MacArthur said, but he never did return. Hopefully you do the same. I’ve had enough of you gaseous anomalies for the day!
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@bobby
You do that and hopefully you will know the difference between a fact and your opinion.
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[…] this year than in 2012 and last year. – Fifteen nations of Sub-Saharan Africa, a term that refers to all the continent with the exception of the northern countries – Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco […]
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At one time the Sahara Desert was a vast wetland (savanna). As a wetland, what term would those euro-clowns give it? Eurocentrists come straight out of a comic book.
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My DNA shows that my ancestors came from Morocco and Algeria along with Senegal, Sierra Leone, and Guinea Bissau, yet my percentage of African DNA is called ‘sub-saharan’. There definitely needs to be another way of identifying Africans.
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Why do females Hate Female Genital Mutilations but want it for their male sons, are ok with it for the male genital amputations, and they even give it a separate name, so that way, it will group it “APART” and look like different thing, furthermore ritualistic medically “Advised stupidity slicings done daily to thousands of of born males. Designed to welcome the 2nd class male gender, into the world with mind altering pain.. You know the kind off pain when they cut into you junk, and tear skin to separate off the gland ripping, exposing and destroying (the male equivalent of a clit look at both)nerves that wouldn’t be separated until sometime around the age of 8, and yet they are against FMG, and only FMG, so modifying a persons body without consent can be further propelled to the males…….. ITS MIND BLOWING.
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Churchs said: “I’ve repeatedly argued with blacks that not all Africans were the same. Indeed, there are at least three different races in SSA”.
I feel I need to correct you here. There are actually over 3000 distinct ethnic groups in Africa. It is actually the most genetically diverse area in the world due to the fact that all non-Africans are descended from a small group of people (generally estimated at between 150 and 1000 people) who crossed the Red Sea around 60,000 years ago. DNA evidence confirms that two Africans from different parts of the continent may be more genetically different from each other than a Chinese person and a White European are from each other. So yes, you are right to believe that genetically, Africans are very different.
“Ethnicity” is a mixture of cultural, genetic, linguistic, religious and historical factors. “Race” though has two distinct meanings, one scientific and one social.
Genetically, race refers to members of the same species or sub-species whose gene-pools have been separated. Humans have not undergone such separation so is only one race: human, we are not dogs with protected pedigrees.
“Race” also has a second socio-economic meaning. A Somalian is just as Black as a Nigerian from a social point of view because they will be subjected to the same lack of privilege in our society. We can ‘lump’ all people within a certain range of skin tones as “Black” in order to analyse what inequalities there are in our society. Calling people “Black” is a way of raising awareness of the inequalities in society, not a way of classifying people scientifically. In other words, the academic term “race” only exists because racism exists, so you cannot state that there are “at least 3 races in SSA” without defining whether you mean genetically (in which case you are wrong) or socially (in which case you are also wrong).
When racism is finally eradicated, we may no longer have use of terms such as “White”,”People of Colour” and “Black”, but for now, they are useful terms that we can use to describe the privilege that one group of people enjoys and the institutional racism to which the other is subjected. That is not to say that people aren’t different, but the differences are on a continuum, not strictly delineated as in pedigree dogs.
So you arguing with Black people about how not all Africans are the same is a moot point, because although Black people are not the same genetically, Black people can be seen as a single group working together from a social point of view.
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Churchs said: “I’ve repeatedly argued with blacks that…”.
Please don’t nominalise a distinguishing adjective (unless it is a nationality adjective ending in -an) as it can be seen as disrespectful (racist, xenophobic, ablist, homophobic etc). Adjectives describe attributes. Nouns define, classify and objectify with the implication that a person is defined by one attribute. This rule has been known in English for literally hundreds of years so we shouldn’t still be doing it.
blacks = black people
a gay/gays = gay people
a Chinese = a Chinese person
a Korean = *ok*
a cripple = a disabled person
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steevmak said:
“Please don’t nominalise a distinguishing adjective (unless it is a nationality adjective ending in -an) as it can be seen as disrespectful (racist, xenophobic, ablist, homophobic etc).”
Dear Steev. Thank you for your thoughtful comment. I am very sorry to say that, in the nearly two years since Churchs made the referenced comment, he has been banned from this community. However, there are those of us who believe that his spirit lives on here.
I’m sure he would be touched by your admonition and that he wouldn’t use terms like “blacks” anymore.
I would also like to make a kind suggestion to you. The terms “racist”, “xenophobic”, “abilist” and “homophobic” could also be seen as “disrespectful” to referenced persons.
Instead, try to use words like “community-oriented” “patriotic”, “traditional” and “God-fearing”.
These terms have been used in English for hundreds of years, so it shouldn’t be hard to make sure you use these rather than the more offensive terms.
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As far as I choose to see it, is that it is of course a non-black (so euro or Arab) preference to call it “sub” Saharan Africa we don’t refer to South America as Sub-Amazon America (geography isn’t the key factor here since some country labeled south Saharan are not actually south) pick anywhere in the world and we never apply a “sub” prefix to it then apply a landmass (say Himalayas) and call everything below that Sub-Himalayan Asia, even as I type that it does imply a negative connotations as opposed to simply South Asia or South east Asia which clearly defines the locations I am talking about without a negative “sub” prefix.
It is unfortunate that there is a state called “South Africa” so instead we should call the “Sub-Saharan Africa” simply Southern Africa or South Saharan Africa. It gives you a clear definition of what landmass I am talking about without a negative prefix, many little issues that I believe contribute to the overall negativity towards blacks, this is just one of them. Southern Africa would do well to outright re-name itself as it sees fit and define the landmass based on what Southern Africans want to be labelled as.
As well as a common language native to Southern Africa(feel free to keep colloquial languages but schools should teach a common language) , since English is an international language, in the same manner you have American English we should have African English in doing so many words and phrases can be modified to suit Southern Africa, remove anything that uses black as a negative prefix such as “Black-Market” and replace it with perhaps “White-Market” (although that is clearly a racist agenda on my part) but you get the picture.
I could go on and on about how media and propaganda need to be used to promote positive black ideologies in Southern Africa.
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On-top of what I said just – we call Europe eastern and western Europe
Africa – Northern and Southern Africa, pretty straight forward really.
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Is the term “Northern Africa” used in English?
To call sub-saharan Africa “Southern Africa” sounds a little silly, as it makes for 3/4 of the African mainland and a lot of it is north of the geographical middle.
I would propose to divide Africa in three geographical entities: Northern Africa, Southern Africa (South Africa, Namibia, Botswana, Zimbabwe, Mozambique) and Middle Africa.
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@ Kartoffel
In English people say “North Africa”, which means the countries from Egypt to Morocco.
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[…] or that exclude people while at the same time never moving past the use of such words (‘Sub–Saharan Africa’; ‘Third World’; ‘Global South’; ‘developing/developed’). In […]
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The term Sub-Sahara Africa came about SOLELY to continue what was started in 1884…And that is to STEAL fertile land from Africans….
They outsiders have to find ANY and EVERY way possible to ingratiate themselves with the landscape.
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[…] There are hundreds of millions of Muslims in India and Southeast Asia, more than 100 million in Sub-Saharan Africa, and even around 20 million in China. Clearly this definition is overbroad, i.e. it includes too […]
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Sub-Saharan Africa may be used as a purely geographic term – the part of the African Continent south of Sahara, but if used as a cultural term it can be misleading, because it implied that Africa south of Sahara is something opposed to the Muslim and Arabic-speaking North Africa. However Islam and even Arabic language(as in Chad) are found south of Sahara as well.
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The term has no geographic meaning at all. Once you observe a map and you see that there are several countries are both in the Sahara and south of it you realise that Sub-Sahara is not a misnomer, it is no mistake it is purely Eurocentric foolishness.
The problem is it has now been established by European run mass media and fake ‘global organisations’ such as the UN. It serves no geographic, racial or cultural barrier. Culturally it only serves for the ruling classes of these countries, especially since European colonialism it has blurred and destroyed culturally difference between many groups and this has impacted on both Northern and Southern Afrika.
The term is entirely fictional as Afrikan people STILL exist in the Sahara in large numbers, so how can we be blocked of from ‘civilisation’ by it. Go to Southern Algeria or Chad or Mali, black people are still the majority. Mixed people/white people on the coast are not native and they know it, look how many invasions have occurred in North Afrika, look how heterogenous the phenotypes of the North Afrikans are who claim they are Berber and Arab. Only one of the three phenotypes can be the aboriginal one. Don’t think whites are willing to give in. Once you deny the phenotypes have different starting points, which is scientifically proven, then you would realise North Afrika is a clinal zone where the markedly different phenotypes have undergone extensive admixture. Pale skin alleles don’t come from the same place as dark skin, pale skin people can still have a mixture of genes from dark skin people but the gene expression shows the admixture is pale skin dominant. All this bullshit about there is no race, genetic diversity within race blah, blah, blah, totally ignore that mixing with people even ones you don’t like is part of life, ignores the fact humans have a phylogenetic tree which shows real genetic and phenotypic distance (different from diversity) and ignores the fact that Europeans have used race effectively to build power and a current global order.
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Well stated and good timing in the storm of media’s blockbuster failures showing Africans as White or light (White with dark makeup).These shows have been boycotted around the world. But, they have gotten smarter. The new film X men Apocalypse slyly had a person of color thank the audience for coming to the show. This made me feel really uncomfortable. Then I saw it. The crowds and crowds of White Egyptians in the first part of the movie.
And this is why we have headlines like this:”Egypt to investigate allegations that official called sub-Saharan Africans ‘slaves and dogs'”. Yes, now some Egyptians don’t even know they are Africans. SMH.
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Blacks are dumb.
IQ tests measure the innate and immutable mental capability that involves abstract thinking, logical reasoning, ability to solve novel problems and comprehend complex ideas.
Intelligence is inherited and not equally distributed among the races.
IQ by race:
• Ashkenazi Jews = 115
• East Asians = 106
• Whites = 100
• Inuits and Eskimos = 91
• South-East Asians = 87
• American Indians = 87
• Hispanics = 86
• American Blacks = 85 (average 24% White admixture)
• Middle East and North Africans = 84
• African Blacks = 67 (only 2% of Whites score this low)
• Australian Aborigines = 62
• Kalahari Bushman = 54
• Congo Pygmies = 54
Asian IQ scores cluster around the mean; thus, the cognitive variation among Whites produces more geniuses, but also more morons.
IQ studies are normed for every conceivable variable and have been conducted on twins and trans-racial adoptions, but the racial IQ gap persists, including on non-verbal tests such Raven’s Matrices, digit span, and mental chronometry.
No Black civilization has ever independently developed. No modern creations exist in sub-Saharan Africa that were not brought there by Whites. Without continuous intervention, Blacks cannot even maintain what Whites gave them.
19 of the 20 poorest countries are sub-Saharan African.
There are no White Third-World nations, but all Black ones are.
Highest National IQs:
• 108 Singapore
• 106 South Korea
• 105 Japan
• 105 China
• 102 Italy
• 101 Iceland
• 101 Switzerland
• 100 Austria
• 100 Netherlands
• 100 Norway
Lowest National IQs:
• 68 Somalia
• 67 Guinea
• 67 Haiti
• 67 Liberia
• 66 Gambia
• 64 Cameroon
• 64 Gabon
• 64 Sierra Leone
• 64 Mozambique
• 59 Equatorial Guinea
Blacks are proto-humans; modern man evolved from Blacks by hybridizing with the large-brain Neanderthals:
• Blacks = 2% Archaic admixture
• Whites = 4% Neanderthal
• Asians = 5% Neanderthal + Denisovan
Genetic distance is a measure of the genetic divergence between populations. Blacks have a genetic distance of 0.23 from Whites and Asians, but only 0.17 from Erectus. That means Blacks are more genetically proximate to archaic man than to modern man.
Blacks are the only race with no DNA from the large-brain Neanderthals. Civilizations didn’t begin until the Neanderthal hybridization created the larger brains in modern man:
Brain Size by Race:
• Blacks = 1267 cm
• Whites = 1347 cm
• Asians = 1364 cm
Whites’ brains are faster, larger, denser, and more complex than Blacks’ brains:
• 7% larger
• 126 grams heavier
• deeper fissuration in the frontal and occipital regions
• more complex convolutions
• larger frontal lobes
• more pyramidal neurons
• 16% thicker supra-grandular layer
• one standard deviation more cerebrum
• react faster on mental chronometry tests
• 600 million more neurons
Whites are only 10% of the world’s population, yet are the most industrious and innovative race the world has known. Whites unlocked the secrets of DNA, and relativity, launched satellites, created automation, discovered electricity and nuclear energy, invented automobiles, aircraft, submarines, radio, television, computers, medicine, telephones, light bulbs, photography, and countless other technological miracles. Whites were the first to circumnavigate the planet by ship, and orbit it by spacecraft, to walk on the moon, probe beyond the solar system, climb the highest peaks, reach both poles, exceed the sound barrier, descend to the oceans depths… yet Blacks still can’t even feed themselves.
Whites have to provide food, medical, financial, and engineering aid to every Black nation. Blacks cannot survive without White charity. Blacks became an out-of-control invasive species after Whites domesticated them.
No pre-contact Black society ever created a written language, or weaved cloth, or forged steel, or invented the wheel, or plow, or devised a calendar, or code of laws, or system of measurement, or math, or built a multi-story structure, or sewer, or drilled a well, or irrigated, or created any agriculture, or built a road, or sea-worthy vessel. They never domesticated animals, or exploited underground natural resources, or produced anything that could be considered a mechanical device.
Blacks were still living in the Stone Age when Whites discovered them just 400 years ago.
Blacks are the oldest race, so they should be the most advanced — but they never advanced at all. Blacks lived alone in Africa, a vast continent with temperate climates and abundant resources for 60,000 years; so they cannot blame slavery, racism, colonialism, culture, environment, or anything else for their failures.
Simply, life is an IQ test.
In 156 American studies that have reported the IQ means of a Black and a White sample, the mean Black-White difference is 1.1 standard deviations (SDs), or about sixteen IQ points.
In 1980, the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth administered the largest and most carefully selected national sample of 6,502 Whites and 3,022 Blacks an IQ test and found a difference of 1.2 SDs.
An IQ gap of at least 1.1 SDs for American Blacks (average 24% White admixture) and Whites has been present for the entire 100+ year history of IQ tests. The gap between African Blacks and Whites is 2.0 SDs.
Black-White IQ Distribution:
Blacks:
5% above 110 IQ
16% above 100 IQ
40% above 90 IQ
60% above 80 IQ
40% below 80 IQ
18% below 75 IQ
10% below 70 IQ
Whites:
10% above 120 IQ
18% above 115 IQ
27% above 110 IQ
40% above 105 IQ
50% above 100 IQ
60% below 105 IQ
35% below 95 IQ
15% below 85 IQ
As the New York Times put it, “…the difference in IQ points between the groups is quite significant. It means that the top sixth of Blacks score only as well on IQ tests as do the top half of Whites.”
The least intelligent 10% of Whites have IQs below 80 (low functioning); 40% of Blacks do.
Only one Black in six is more intelligent than the average White; five Whites out of six are more intelligent than the average Black.
Incidently, Black female IQ is 2.4 points higher than Black male IQ. There are twice as many Black females as Black males with IQs over 120, and five times as many Black females as Black males with IQs over 140.
About 2.3% of Whites have an IQ of at least 130 (gifted), 20 times greater than the percentage of Blacks who do; only 0.00044% of African Blacks have an IQ over 130. 80% of gifted American Blacks have White admixture.
Geniuses by Race (IQ 140 or higher):
• African Blacks 1:3,500,000 (0.000003%)
• American Blacks 1:218,000 (0.0004%)
• Whites 1:83 (1.2%)
So, the per capita genius rate for Whites is 41,000 times higher than it is for African Blacks.
If all Whites in America were replaced by Blacks, the number of geniuses in the country would fall from about 2.4 million to only about 1,000.
The so-called “achievement gap” by SAT scores:
Year White Black Gap
1985 1038 839 199
1990 1031 849 185
1995 1052 857 195
2000 1060 859 201
2005 1061 863 197
2010 1063 855 208
2015 1047 846 201
This gap is so significant that colleges award Blacks 230 SAT “race bonus” points to help them qualify for admission. The Black-only National Achievement Scholarship was created because Blacks are not competitive for the National Merit Scholarship.
IQ by Race and Highest Degree Earned (1972 — 2014):
Highest Degree White IQ Black IQ Gap
High School Drop-out: 89 82 7
High School Diploma 98 90 8
Junior College Degree 102 95 7
Bachelor’s Degree 108 100 8
Graduate Degree 113 102 11
Therefore, a Black with a graduate degree has an IQ equivalent to a White with a junior college degree.
Blacks can only achieve because they are mixed with White genes or because they reside in White societies. Too few of them are smart enough to even build sufficient infrastructure to allow the Black intellectual elite to achieve.
The American Psychological Association declares, “…large differences do exist between the average IQ scores of Blacks and Whites, and that these differences cannot be attributed to biases in test construction.”
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Brilliant. On point. More than Western media’s incessant use of this illogical and condescending term, O sincerely loath how nonchantly it is used in the US Afrocentric circles. Will check some more of your posts and may subscribe. Keep up the good works.
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Not so long ago Neanderthals were seen as no better than animals:
” A major PBS-TV series on evolution1 depicted Neandertal Man as only half human and not very intelligent, one who lived a very inferior life compared to the alleged first humans, the Cro-Magnon people. Some scientists today believe he was “lacking the language skills, foresight, creativity, and other cognitive abilities of modern humans”. Now the same Neanderthal is credited for all good things because: “Blacks are the only race with no DNA from the large-brain Neanderthals.”
I’ll play along, now show me the ‘advanced civilization’ they created in Germany’s Neander Valley, where they were first discovered?
“IQ by Race and Highest Degree Earned (1972 — 2014):
Highest Degree White IQ Black IQ Gap
High School Drop-out: 89 82 7
High School Diploma 98 90 8
Junior College Degree 102 95 7
Bachelor’s Degree 108 100 8
Graduate Degree 113 102 11
Therefore, a Black with a graduate degree has an IQ equivalent to a White with a junior college degree.”
FASCINATING! A Black needs only an IQ of 102 to achieve what a White with an IQ of 113 can do. Blacks must be superior to Whites or IQs don’t adequately measure achievement!
“Blacks can only achieve because they are mixed with White genes or because they reside in White societies.”
I need you to explain what I call the “Dumas-Davy de la Pailleterie conundrum”.
You’ve heard of the French author Alexandre Dumas, his father and his sons, who did have White genes and did live in White societies like their pure white relatives, the Davy de la Pailleteries, yet none of the latter contributed a tenth as much to French culture as the Negrified Dumas’ did! Whence did the genius of three generations of Dumas’ come from?
“Too few of them are smart enough to even build sufficient infrastructure to allow the Black intellectual elite to achieve.”
Who ruled Mali, an empire the size of most of Western Europe from 1235 to 1610? How did IQ deficient Africans and their descendants manage to rule Asians from 1489 to 1948, in Janjira State? Who taught the Ashanti goldsmithing? Who created the Benin sculptures? Igbo-Ukwu bronze artifacts? Great Zimbabwe? Let me guess, some stray descendant of the big brained Neanderthal?
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Abagond, your moderation filter is f*cked up. You let a racist ramble on and block me for trying to answer him!!!
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Negrified
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@ gro jo
“Zimbabwe” and “Neanderthal”, both favoured words of drive-by trolls.
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@ gro jo
“IQ tests measure the innate and immutable mental capability that involves abstract thinking, logical reasoning, ability to solve novel problems and comprehend complex ideas.”
I saw this opening sentence and thought about how its author revealed his ignorance and stupidity. IQ tests are made to measure what White children have learned up to the point of testing. IQ tests don’t measure potential learning, mental capabilities or aptitude in any child of any color.
Then the silly White Supremacist made these statements:
“No pre-contact Black society ever created a written language, or weaved cloth, or forged steel, or invented the wheel, or plow, or devised a calendar, or code of laws, or system of measurement, or math, or built a multi-story structure, or sewer, or drilled a well, or irrigated, or created any agriculture, or built a road, or sea-worthy vessel. They never domesticated animals, or exploited underground natural resources, or produced anything that could be considered a mechanical device.”
It’s like he or she never bothered to do any research or reading beyond Brietbart—–just spewing racist ignorance they heard from some equally ignorant racist. A series of google searches would correct his or her profound ignorance about the lives and accomplishments of Africans. He or she is too darn lazy for that, though.
The European Era is ending. Our descendants will have to deal with the legacy of that era, but in real terms, their power is waning. That is why they are lashing out and flailing to slow the slide down. It won’t help. As the people in my childhood neighborhood used to say: “every dog has its day and some have two.”
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“abagond
@ gro jo
“Zimbabwe” and “Neanderthal”, both favoured words of drive-by trolls.”
Maybe you should filter out the English language and create some consistency.
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“The European Era is ending. Our descendants will have to deal with the legacy of that era, but in real terms, their power is waning. That is why they are lashing out and flailing to slow the slide down. It won’t help. As the people in my childhood neighborhood used to say: “every dog has its day and some have two.””
You are an optimist, the human race may not survive the level of mendacity, stupidity and greed on display in racist remarks like Robbie Smith’s. The European death wish, Thanatos Freud called it, may not allow it. At any rate, Blacks have done enough in the past for us to have nothing to be ashamed of.
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@ gro jo
“…the human race may not survive the level of mendacity, stupidity and greed on display in racist remarks like Robbie Smith’s. The European death wish, Thanatos Freud called it, may not allow it.”
Good point. I’m painfully aware of possible fatal outcomes ahead. I choose to see a future for humanity. Whether that future materializes, who knows?
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“Not so long ago Neanderthals were seen as no better than animals:”
LOOL, gotta love it. They were your archetypical “caveman” now they’re geniuses with big brains.
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[…] Edward…. but that’s a discussion for a different day. I won’t even mention “sub Saharan Africa” because I know you already stopped saying […]
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True. Thank you
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Thank you for this enlightening post. I recently read about race classifications based on anthropology, and was drawn to the “negroid” classification. Curious, I sought to gain an non-eurocentric understanding of Africa and Africans; especially “Black Africa.”
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There’s nothing wrong with “Eurocentric” terminology. Europeans, like everyone else, have a right to define other regions in relation to Europe.
After all, the Chinese call themselves the “Middle Kingdom”, and no one complains.
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@knightsofhierosolyma
I used Eurocentric as defined by the Oxford English Dictionary. It states, “focusing on European culture or history to the exclusion of a wider view of the world; implicitly regarding European culture as pre-eminent.” I hope you now understand why I used it with a negative connotation.
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No, Europeans do not have the right to name other regions in ways people in such regions find derogatory. That is just the usual white supremacist entitlement attitude……
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Africa is struggling with this issue now. They are renaming their countries instead of keeping the names Europeans gave them. Dahomey even changed their name to Benin because of the connection to the slave trade.
But, I am really waiting for the change for Cameroon which actually means shrimp in Portuguese and Spanish. I salute the honorable Kwame Nkrumah who promoted this and changed the Eurocentric name of his country to Ghana.
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It is racist because it is trying to create a superficial division between the northern and southern Africa, use to promote notion of Black civilizational inferior..
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I believe that the terms, Black and White are racist. They were first used by the English in the Colonial Period to divide the poor people. White privilege in USA was created as the result of Bacon’s Rebellion in 1676.
Using the term, Black and White for races making no sense. They’re color names.
Africa doesn’t mean Black just like European doesn’t mean white.
I don’t think SubSaharan African is racist. sub means below or above.
It’s applies to geography.
It takes into account that SubSaharan African skin colors are variations of dark skin and not just black. It takes in consideration people that are light brown.
There are people that are very dark in Andaman Islands and Melanesia that aren’t genetically close to SubSaharans.
I feel that a lot of people are contradicting. They want to say that all Africans are black but they try to argue the diversity among Africans.
You cannot have it both ways.
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correction………..sub means below or under
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Raymond Nolan Scott
yoo might want to put a little more thinking into your assertions.
I agree with you ,but how far are you wiling to go?
are you willing to acknowledge that what we call race is actually phenotype and geoghically derived phenotypic groupings.?
what terms should be adopted publicly and globally that refer to peoples actual scientific phenotypic description as opposed to the current inaccurate and archaic terminology?
I know I am not as dark i.e I don’t have as much melanin pigmentation as other africans or african americans which is why I prefer the term african instead of black.
I highly suspect your a white male ,because of your name and the type and grammar of your question,
think I’m bias
my accuracy would increase to near certainty if I could not see you but only heard your voice
and yet if I saw a picture of you
and your hair texture and color was identical to a white europeans and your skin lacked melanin to a significant degree just like most white europeans
you might still claim that even though your phenotype is identical that your not white i.e. have the same exact phenotypic traits as white europeans
namely a absence of melanin pigment in a significant portion of your epidermis
How do you feel about instead of referring to white people solely by their lack of melanin skin pigmentation
we refer to them by why they lack skin pigmentation.?
I used term albinic which means partial albino
I am aware that most white people don’t like the association but scientific fact is what it is.
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this blog is mindblowingly deep
a blog post originated January 14 2013
its july 24 2021
thats about 8 years
its very interesting to read what you said years ago
then there is the Bulanik phenomena
see bulinik is or was a very beautiful intelligent female commenter here of a while,
however probably due to the fact that white people are so aggressively racist
that as long as I have been commenting here
there have been racist white people who will come to this minor obscure blog and read the entire post
and then proceed to do anything and everything possible to insult ridicule distract and derail the conversation and any nonwhite person commenting here.
to the point where i have personally experienced innocently commenting here and a white racist person was so repeatedly insulting and abusive that after repeated warnings abgond had to permanently ban that person.
now back then ,it was both amusing and gratifying that there was at least one place where we could limit and restrict the abuse we deal with.
thinking about it now after the capital riot ,makes a bit more real
as during that event we all witnessed racist white people
who will not stop unless you use force.
back to the Bulanik phenomena
apparently one day she had all of her comments deleted
why unknown
but here’s the problem
she or who ever did the work didn’t do a complete job
probably because its impossible
impossible because we all remember her
and she was so beautiful and intelligent and kind
I would be honored to give my place for her indeed all such as her
therefore if she is still alive and well (i sincerely hope so)
what did she accomplish?
this is not an admonishment ,were she not so intelligent and insightful
why would I miss her presence?
what about the pages that are archived that include her comments.?
i know it can be painful and I sometimes regret comments I have made
but there is no escape
I said what I said ,I can only hope to rely on being honest and true to myself
including admitting when I’m wrong or ignorant.
its interesting how those that hate and kill are not remembered or loved as much as their victims
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