Trayvon Martin, a 17-year-old boy visiting his father in a gated community in Sanford, Florida, was walking back from the store armed with only an iced tea and a bag of Skittles when the neighbourhood watchman, George Zimmerman, shot him dead. Zimmerman, amazingly, claimed self-defence. Even more amazing, the police did not doubt it!
The police said the tapes of the emergency calls would show that Zimmerman was right.
On the tapes Zimmerman reports “a real suspicious guy” to the police dispatcher:
This guy looks like he’s up to no good, or he’s on drugs or something. He’s just staring, looking at all the houses. Now he’s coming toward me. He’s got his hand in his waistband. Something’s wrong with him. He’s coming to check me out. He’s got something in his hands. I don’t know what his deal is. Can we get an officer over here?
Then Trayvon runs. Zimmerman follows – even though the police dispatcher told him, “We don’t need you to do that.”
Witness accounts, when taken together, then report two men talking, then wrestling, then cries for help, then a gunshot, then silence and then someone lying dead in the grass.
In one of the tapes you can hear the cries for help cut short by a gunshot.
Everything turns on who you think was crying out for help:
- The police clearly think it was Zimmerman.
- Trayvon’s mother and a witness say it was Trayvon. (Oddly, the police “corrected” that witness.)
The cries for help do sound like that of a teenaged boy. The trouble is, Zimmerman’s voice is pretty high-pitched too so you cannot tell for sure.
Yet to believe it was Zimmerman you would also have to believe that:
- An unarmed 17-year-old boy of 140 pounds could have an armed 28-year-old man of 250 pounds at his mercy.
- The armed, not the unarmed party, would cry out for help.
- That the shooter would stop his cries for help in the same split second he shot his gun.
None of these are impossible, just very unlikely. So the cries for help are almost certainly Trayvon’s.
Yet the police chief says he sees no reason to arrest Zimmerman, no “probable cause to dispute” the claim of self-defence. The mayor says he sees no reason to fire the police chief.
Maybe they are hiding something, but it is not just them – other people think it is Zimmerman or, at least, are in enough doubt that Zimmerman’s walking free does not seem to trouble them.
Oddly, most of these people Happen To Be White. That is no accident. Even with Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” law, it still requires you to see this case through Super Duper Racist Spectacles Tinted with Moral Blindness:
- A black person’s life has no more value than that of a dog.
- Unarmed black males are presumed to be more dangerous than armed white males.
Postscript: When Zimmerman starts to follow Trayvon he says “fucking coons” under his breath.
See also:
Only in Bizzaro America!
From Racism Review:
“At the crime scene, the Sanford, Florida police botched their questioning of Zimmerman, refused to take the full statements of witnesses, and pressured neighbors to side with the shooter’s claim of self-defense. Sanford’s police department has a history of failing to hold perpetrators accountable for violent acts against Black individuals. The police misconduct in Trayvon’s case exemplifies the department’s systemic mishandling of investigations involving violence against Black victims. And now the State Attorney’s office has rubber-stamped the Sanford police’s non-investigation, claiming that there is not enough evidence to support even a manslaughter conviction for Trayvon’s senseless and entirely avoidable death.”
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White people in Florida have some serious mental issues – speaking with a few in person has taught me all I need to know about that backwater swamp.
The state flag is telling:
http://www.50states.com/flag/flflag.htm
A concealed confederate ‘stars and bars’ is still a confederate flag, but in a way, it shows the status of racism in the USA: concealed. Hidden. Swept under the rug. “Ignore it and it never happened!”
The events in this travesty, and the comments about it, reveal all.
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@sepultura13
confederate ‘stars and bars’ ….it shows the status of racism in the USA
Perhaps there is an alternative view of the ‘stars and bars’ – Southerners being proud of their heritage, which not does not have to include the slavery part because only a small number of Southerners owned slaves.
Blacks are always re-interpreting history throught their own viewpoint. Perhaps you should allow white Southerners to do the same.
I am not a Southerner and I have no ‘stars and bars’ anything.
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@sepultura13
A lot of the states in the old South have Confederate remnants in their flags w/ MS being the most glaring. Yeah, they’re pretty slow (and adamant) about it down here…:/
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This is probably one of the “truest” alternative media reports, and analysis of the incident, I’ve heard so far. Which tends to corroborate Abagonds account here.
But nothing can excuse the action of the police to release the suspect before even conducting a proper investigation. This is a double standard in justice for Black and white suspects/killers. It can be factual established that American’s history is littered with them.
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http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-killing-friend-phone-teen-death-recounts-063243901–abc-news.html
ABC had an inteview with the last person to talk to Trayvon alive. The girl said that Trayvon knew he was being followed and was running trying to get away. George Zimmerman cornered him and started the altercation by pushing him.
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I don’t mean to double post but I forgot to mention. The police had Trayvons Cell phone for 3 day and didn’t check to see if he made any phone calls before he died
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Abagond,
This murder is a wake up call to blacks EVERYWHERE.
Not only do you fear for your life from bobbies who wish to destroy you like a common animal, not only do you fear racist whites who hate and wish to see you dead, but on top of ALL that, the murdering bastards probably won’t get arrested!
This post was one of the most difficult ones for me.
Maybe because it’s a glaring reminder of how little we mean in America.
Maybe because it’s a glaring reminder of how happy whites are when we die.
Maybe because it’s because it could’ve happened to any of us.
How many times, Aba, have you worn a hoodie, white tennis sneakers and blue jeans? I wear that almost every single day when I’m not at work.
Am I, in all my 135 lb glory, “suspicious”?
Will a man or woman see me walking around with a Dunkin Donuts coffee and shoot me? Will I be “mistaken” for a suspect? A rapist ( never mind that I am a woman, all blacks have super-powers to rape at amazing speeds). Or perhaps, one loose cannon will hate me just due to the fact that I exist and want to snuff me out?
Listening to the 911 calls sent a chill up my spine. That could have been my brother, nephew or cousin. It could’ve been my dad or husband buying a soda at the five and dime.
Why is this bothering me so much more than the others? We talked about it last night. We decided not to go out alone anymore. NONE of us, without taking company and a cell phone.
How sad is that? In our rural, “country safe” neighborhood? We actually have to plan ahead since we are no longer safe from racist folks with an axe to grind.
Sorry to rant.
My mind is all over the place.
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Abagond,
you know your “race realist” trolls will hijack this story again and make a mockery out of this injustice but God bless you for trying to bring some clarity.
By the way, you forgot to mention that Sanford, FL is KKK territory (they are prevelent in central /north FL), they still have rallies in Sanford, and from what people have said, they have stong ties with the police force.
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/state/florida-kkk-leader-says-law-enforcement-officers-are-169139.html
According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, there are 51 active KKK groups in Florida in cities including Orlando, Sanford, Daytona Beach, Eustis and five in Jacksonville. (all central / north FL)
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Bliff said: “…which not does not have to include the slavery part because only a small number of Southerners owned slaves.”
The so-called “Southerners” who did not OWN black people, certainly benefitted from the “Southern” slavery industrial complex.
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I’ve been formulating exactly the same series of thoughts. To reach the conclusion reached by the police, you have to believe, at face value, every aspect of Zimmerman’s account, even though a great deal of the circumstantial evidence casts doubt on Zimmerman’s account and, even without circumstantial evidence, it could simply be the case that Zimmerman lies. Police arrest suspects all the time even where the suspects maintain their own innocence and relate accounts of events that support their innocence. These arrests come because the police don’t believe that the suspects are telling the truth.
The picture here suggests that the police were pre-disposed to conclude that Zimmerman acted in self defense and tailored their investigation to bolster that conclusion. I would love to have the lawsuit vs. the police force on this case. If Bill Lee on the witness stand comes off as an idiot like he does on television, a jury could eat him alive.
The scary part for parents is that we generally teach our kids that if they are accosted by a strange adult, that they should run, scream for help and, if physically cornered or grabbed, fight like a wildcat. Here, Trayvon apparently did exactly the right thing. Zimmerman (per the girlfriend, who was listening on the phone) never identified himself as a neighborhood watch representative. He simply confronted Trayvon, cornered him, and got physical with him. From Trayvon’s perspective, this was a strange adult trying to accost or injure him. Trayvon did exactly what any parent would hope his child would do in those circumstances, in response to which Zimmerman pulled a gun and killed him.
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Not Just Florida
More from Racism Review:
“There is a new study from our friends at the SPLC, reported in The New York Times, that indicates a dramatic resurgence in the number of racist, neo-Nazi, and far-right extremist groups operating across our country. The SPLC, which has kept track of such groups for 30 years, recorded 1,018 hate groups operating last year. And, lest you think this is a southern U.S. phenomenon, the states with the most active hate groups were California, Florida, Georgia, New Jersey and New York.”
http://www.racismreview.com/blog/2012/03/08/rise-hate-groups/
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One thing that I think is really hard to understand outside the gun toting right wing racist extremist nut circles: why these people try to make it ok? I mean, a kid has been killed. A child was murdered. How the hell anyone, at least with children of ones own, can justify this? How an earth any humanbeing can say or imply or claim that is is ok to murder children?
I can not understand that. That is fKing amazing. The mayor, the chief police, the cops, Zimmermans dad, bliff and destructure here… What is going on in their heads? How they can sleep?
These are the same guys who worked on nazicamps in WW2. Good, average people, normal people, church going people, decent people with petty idenity of white middle class, that somehow is so sick and twisted that they are able to see a child murder as justified.
This makes me really sick, all of these people. I see no difference between these and the ones like Dr Mengele or any other rational and law abiding nazi who used children as test animals in his lab or those guards who crushed babies heads and thoughed that they were doing a favor for them by putting them out of their misery. Same rationalising, same social group, same ideas.
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@MinneB
The so-called “Southerners” who did not OWN black people, certainly benefitted from the “Southern” slavery industrial complex.
Not true. Southern white workers were forced to labor at low wages because they couldn’t compete economically with slave labor.
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Skittles = innocent. From now on I’ll be sure to carry a bag of skittles in my pocket just in case I decide to break the law.
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@destructure
thanks
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Watch today’s show on DemocracyNow! there’s a full on report with the 911 calls discussed above PLUS an additional call where a woman tells dispatch that the boy had been shot and starts sobbing on the phone. It’s just wrentching to hear. There’s also additional coverage about the Stand Your Ground Law, and about targeting of Black Youth for being “suspicious”.
http://www.democracynow.org
@Sam
“I can not understand that. That is fKing amazing. The mayor, the chief police, the cops, Zimmermans dad, bliff and destructure here… What is going on in their heads? How they can sleep?”
They can sleep because they have no conscience.
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I don’t understand why it’s so important who cried for help. Zimmerman is obviously a person who thought Martin was scary for just walking down the street. Zimmerman had a gun and he still saw Martin as threatening somehow. So it’s plausible (not saying this is what happened, but it’s plausible) that he attacked the boy, pushed him to the ground and cried for help (he thought Martin, a skinny 17 year old boy, was scary enough to call the police). So why wouldn’t he cry for help even when he pushed the boy to the ground and had his gun aimed at him?
I mean, we can have two theories here. One is that Zimmerman saw a black boy on the street and shot him because he was black, then claimed self-defense to avoid prosecution. Another one is that Zimmerman saw a black boy on the street and got scared of him because in his mind blacks=scary, even with the boy being skinny and unarmed. In this scenario, Zimmerman really thought in his racist head that he’s in grave danger. This doesn’t make his claims for self-defense any more true, but it makes it irrelevant who cried for help. Even if it was him, it doesn’t mean he was really in danger.
Like I said earlier, the police’s reaction is what I find the most interesting here. They treat the whole situation as: “ooops, I ran over your bicycle”. Is it REALLY that important to determine all the circumstances of this act?
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Bliff
You’re welcome. But it looks like my comment lived a very short life. hehe
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Having been in the South a long time I can tell you, anyone who is “proud” of their heritage is pretty much an unrepentant racist.
Sure they don’t focus on slavery but thats because they literally don’t care about it in any way.
Simply put; what do they have to be proud of?
Being traitors to the nation? Enslaving human beings? Losing a war? Planning to spread that war to South America if they won?
Basically its like saying maybe someone is just proud of their heritage while possessing no bigotry towards jews if they have swatizka’s and celebrate Nazi’s in germany, not too likely.
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There have been other incidents and outcomes with this law that didn’t have a racial angle. In one case, they let gangbangers go after they killed a minor in a shootout.
http://www.wctv.tv/home/headlines/92183289.html
In Tallahassee in 2008, two rival gangs engaged in a neighborhood shootout, and a 15-year-old African American male was killed in the crossfire. The three defendants all either were acquitted or had their cases dismissed, because the defense successfully argued they were defending themselves under the “stand your ground” law.
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abagond
If you’re going to remove my comment for being off-topic then you should probably announce that it’s off-topic for others as well.
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@destructure,
I didn’t read your link because your “rival gangs” case has nothing to do with an unarmed child walking back to his father’s place in fear of a 250lb man following him.
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vanishingpoint
The “rival gangs” case has everything to do with this one. It’s the same law that allows both to claim self-defense. But if you weren’t going to bother to read it then perhaps you shouldn’t have bothered to reply. Just leave your head up your caboose and ignore information that doesn’t support your prejudices.
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I have been saying this very thing for days, and it goes largely ignored. I feel sometimes it’s as if people think black children don’t get kidnapped or molested. Martin had every right to fear for his safety when an unknown man is following him in a car at night, and yet, so few bother to pay attention to this fact. No one questions the “creepy stalker dude” who follows a child, yet so many accept the “fearful neighborhood watch guy” who’s just trying to protect his neighborhood from the big scary black guy.
And the amount of victim-blaming that is happening just floors me.
I am sickened by the defense of Zimmerman, a man who purposely left his vehicle with the intent to start an altercation with a gun.
There is no cause for self-defense here, at all.
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I’m curious to know where the body and bullet casing were found by police. Zimmerman stated in his initial statement to police that we was walking back to his truck when Trayvon attacked him from behind, so he turned and shot. The police accepted this at face value and used it to justify their self defense conclusion.
All witness testimony was that the shot took place during a scuffle on the grass, where Zimmerman first accosted Trayvon, and the girl speaking with Trayvon on the phone heard Zimmerman say something like “what are you doing here?” and then shove Trayvon. In other words, the witness testimony is inconsistent with Zimmerman’s account.
The more I learn about this, the more it screams “wanna be cop” with delusions of vigilante glory.
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Skittles=innocent=didn’t deserve to die for walking while Black.
@ wanpimao- in total agreement. It seems highly likely Martin was fighting away a “hypothetical” molester/kidnapper. Yet that part is being utterly ignored.
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Slavery is off topic here unless you can tie it to the case (slave patrols, etc).
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@destructure, I have to say I agreed with your original assessment of “lets wait and find out.” Well after the tapes are released, especially the one where there is no question it’s his voice “He’s getting away, they always get away,” I don’t get why you are still arguing about this. After that the dispatcher told him to leave him alone. It’s like Zimmerman still had a past agenda that he was carrying out. Does that happen the other way around where a black on white crime may carry a past agenda……..yes. But it doesn’t make what Zimmerman did ok. If you want to be judged individually then you have to practice what you preach. Maybe the cops and the DA there in that town ARE racist. Doesn’t mean that the rest of us are and that blacks haven’t done bad to whites, no, but in this particular case GZ was in the wrong period.
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@Blanc2
I’m curious to know where the body and bullet casing were found by police. Zimmerman stated in his initial statement to police that we was walking back to his truck when Trayvon attacked him from behind, so he turned and shot. The police accepted this at face value and used it to justify their self defense conclusion.
__
I would love to know the ballistics findings in this case, I was thinking the same thing.
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Not until everybody stops insisting that white on black violence must be due to racist causes, racism will continue to exist.
What we have is human on human violence and all human on human violence is equally tragic. We need to stop insisting on seeing things differently, and we need to stop the violence.
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@dave
It’s like Zimmerman still had a past agenda that he was carrying out. Does that happen the other way around where a black on white crime may carry a past agenda……..yes. But it doesn’t make what Zimmerman did ok………but in this particular case GZ was in the wrong period.
Well said dave, though I think you may have to prepare for a double onslaught of attack by a couple of the commenters on here who seem to have some kind of tag team/mutual appreciation thang going on between em.
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@ Don
Zimmerman brought race into this when he ID Martin as Suspicious because he was black and walking around. If anything the 911 tapes prove that race was a major factor in this. Matter of fact they have other 911 calls that Zimmerman made to police about other black teens walking int he neighborhood. Zimmerman has a pattern of singleing out young blk males in his neighborhood.
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@ Matari & MinnieB:
Hate groups and the confederate flag are definitely not just southern sights, sounds, and smells. Here in the Pacific NW, the supremacist groups simply fly under the wire by claiming to be ‘survivalists’ who ‘want to live off of the grid’ or claim political status, like the teabaggers, or religious status, such as the xian knights of (insert Germanic or Norse name). Just google Hayden Lake, Idaho, or Randy Weaver / Ruby Ridge. http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Study-Hate-groups-on-the-rise-nationally-and-locally-142000063.html
http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2011/06/northwest_news_54_hate_groups_identified_in_nw_grizzly_danger_closes_campgrounds_near_yellowstone_to.html
White trash sporting confederate flags on their trucks or tattooed on their bodies; “Redneck and proud” is a popular bumper sticker on the ever-present, jacked-up, mini-monster-truck Ford F150s…
At least they’re easy to spot that way! 😎
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@sepultura13: Is it necessary to use a pejorative and racist term like “white trash” in this discussion?
I would imagine that folks would be offended if black people with politically disagreeable beliefs were referred to as “black trash”, or the equivalent.
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Don’t you find it odd how the crying suddenly stopped immediately after Martin was shot? Wouldn’t Zimmerman have continued shouting had it been he who was originally crying?
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@destructure:
“Skittles = innocent. From now on I’ll be sure to carry a bag of skittles in my pocket just in case I decide to break the law.”
There you go! Now you are suggesting that the child got murdered because he decided to break the law.
Could you now, please, tell us all what law Treavon was breaking when he was walking back to his dad home? Could you tell us, please, was he a criminal?
Thank you very much!
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Our legal system has contained structures that distinguish levels of culpability for violence based on the mens rea of the perpetrator since the beginning of our nation’s history. Indeed these structures date back to the British legal system. For example, the distinction between First and Second Degree murder hinges on state of mind factors such as premeditation and intent. Etc. I point this out because, in the eyes of the law, violence is not violence. In fact, violence is treated quite differently depending on the surrounding circumstances.
As to the discussion about race in this blog, and elsewhere, the racial elements of this matter are patently manifest, in two ways: (1) at a visceral level, but supported by some of the things Zimmerman says in his calls to the fuzz as well as some of the background information about Zimmerman’s involvement with the neighborhood watch, one senses that Zimmerman’s initial decision to suspect young Trayvon was at least in part because Trayvon was black, and (2) the apparent effort by the police force to bend its investigation to support its predetermination that this was excusable self defense, to the point of failing to follow up on low hanging fruit evidence leads, ignoring others, and twisting the statements of witnesses, suggests a cavalier attitude toward the death of a young black man. Again, at a visceral level, it feels pretty certain that if the races were reversed, the black shooter would today be locked up and facing charges.
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I listened to the 911 tapes! I am so angry that this man is not sitting in some prison somewhere!
And his father has the audacity to say ‘look my son is not racist he has black friends who can vouch for him!’ This story hurt me so much i cant get that poor boy’s cries for help out of my head!
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@wanpimao
The victim blaming is disgusting and the apologists who defend and excuse Zimmermans conduct makes my blood run cold. It’s hard to express to white people how this affects communities of color because they don’t have to know Our truths when theirs suits them just fine. They don’t live in our skin to experience the racism we do. And were PRO’s at this! We are the EXPERTS! When another young white woman goes missing please believe the news will be all over that ad nauseaum 24/7. While there is dead silence about the disappearances of thousands of Black, Latino, Native American women and men, boys and girls. It’s a bloody shame. With this level of ambivalence when violence is done on bodies of color well white people dont care because it was likely our own darn fault we turned up missing or got killed.
In the coverage from DemocracyNow! it is explained how Treyvon’s body was left UNCLAIMED in the MORGUE when they had his phone in their custody. He was laying on the grass 70 feet from his Dad’s/girlfriends home and the police didn’t canvass the neighbood knocking on doors to ask if anyone had information on the event. It wasn’t until his parents filed a missing persons report that police told the family about their son.
Also, because there had been reports of home invasions by Black youth from residents the community watch was in fact looking for Black males. Specifically. I can understand that. The community has a right to organize for their common interest of their neighborhood. HOWEVER, it is also incumbent upon that community to reach out and know who in Gods name their neighbors actually are. This being a gated and private community it could not have been hard to do this. I get the sense that community outreach didn’t go far enough here.
Here, we have a situation where Zimmerman went all wild-west-ey like he was in some John Wayne film on a totally vulnerable kid walking back to his family’s house. If Zimmerman had been less bent towards dispensing vigilante justice here and did what the 911 dispatch asked and left him alone. This could have been settled peaceably by the police and they could have sorted this out. Instead we have yet another young man dead because of the prejudices of his killer and the local police.
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I should clarify. When a sensational crime story is about a White lady or Black male it has a better chance of making the nightly news. I forgot that Black/Latina/Native women rarely if ever do.
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dave
I have to say I agreed with your original assessment of “lets wait and find out.”
Thank you.
Well after the tapes are released, especially the one where there is no question it’s his voice “He’s getting away, they always get away,” I don’t get why you are still arguing about this.
Because it says nothing about what transpired between GZ and TM after they came face to face.
After that the dispatcher told him to leave him alone.
The dispatcher never instructed Zimmerman to do anything. All he said was “We don’t need you to do that”(follow him).
It’s like Zimmerman still had a past agenda that he was carrying out. Does that happen the other way around where a black on white crime may carry a past agenda……..yes.
The only time GZ even mentioned race was in response to a direct question asking if the suspect was “white, black or hispanic”. He made 46 calls to 911 concerning possible burglaries, etc. And while I think that’s excessive it suggests his primary agenda was preventing theft.
But it doesn’t make what Zimmerman did ok. If you want to be judged individually then you have to practice what you preach. Maybe the cops and the DA there in that town ARE racist. Doesn’t mean that the rest of us are and that blacks haven’t done bad to whites, no, but in this particular case GZ was in the wrong period.
Maybe they ARE racist. Then, again, maybe not. I don’t know. But even if they are it doesn’t mean GZ wasn’t acting in self defense.
I don’t want to get in your grill or anything but its silly for someone with a different pov to end a statement with “Period”, “End of discussion” or “Nuff said” as if that actually means something. Anyone can end a statement like that. Period. 🙂
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@destructure, maybe, it’s very doubtful, but maybe he was acting in self defense. But shouldn’t he have at least been held during some of the investigation to see if he would “crack” they do that in most cases. Or at least have his license to carry revoked. Don’t you think there is a chance he could do this again.
Another thing, I have come here for a while and have learned to choose my battles wisely. You’ll have another chance, but my advice if you want to be taken seriously here leave this one alone.
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The dispatcher never instructed Zimmerman to do anything. All he said was “We don’t need you to do that”(follow him).
If someone is told ‘we dont need you to do that’ what does this suggest to you?
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sam
There you go! Now you are suggesting that the child got murdered because he decided to break the law.
I suggested no such thing. My point is that skittles doesn’t make someone innocent in spite of what people on this blog want to believe. While Trayvon’s death might be tragic, those making issue over him having a package of skittles in his pocket deserve to be laughed at.
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@son2380
It may be true that race was a factor in the minds of those involved in this tragedy, but for us to focus on this as a racial issue is just another manifestation of the same problem that everybody believes Zimmerman had. It does nothing but feed racism and perpetuate racial divides.
Just read truthbetold’s post. That is the post of a person who has fear of all white people because of the actions of some. That itself is tragic and that line of thinking will perpetuate the racism problem. When will we stop blanket judgement of someone based on the color of their skin? Individuals need to be judged as individuals based on the content of their character, not the color of their skin.
What all people of all creeds can agree to and get behind is that this is the tragic and senseless loss of human life. This was a real person and somebody’s son. Let’s not cheapen this case by focusing on the fact that the victim was black.
Do not all people that feel they are treated unjustly due to their race simply wish to be considered equally as a person, just like everybody else? This is the thinking that we as the human race need to strive for. Will we choose to consider Martin equally as a person, or will we continue to insist that he is different because he is black? Will we continue to insist that there is somehow inequality because he is black?
Let’s stop the racist line of thinking on all fronts.
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I agree with Don .
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dave
Another thing, I have come here for a while and have learned to choose my battles wisely. You’ll have another chance, but my advice if you want to be taken seriously here leave this one alone.
I don’t care if they take me seriously or not. Because most of them are crazy and committed to their prejudices. Them taking me seriously isn’t going to change that. I’m just here to amuse myself.
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demerera
If someone is told ‘we dont need you to do that’ what does this suggest to you?
That he can still do whatever the h311 he wants.
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@ everyone
We all need to take a good hard look at ourselves and each other and ask if it’s all worth it. I’m tired and worn out. I’m sick and tired of being sick and tired.
If this was a little white boy, the amount of outrage around the country would be enormous. But a little black life is worth nothing. And the monsters that try to explain the reasons why…may God have mercy on your souls.
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w@destructure or unamused? I wouldn’t do that here to amuse yourself on this issue, two families are ruined now. The accused had parents too. I don’t think anyone involved in this case who are still grieving wants to have someone getting their amusement out this story.
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@destructure
I don’t care if they take me seriously or not……I’m just here to amuse myself
Yeah, lets laugh all the way to the morgue!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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@ Don
I don’t give a damn what you or any other white person here thinks, especially in the United States where you have power and privilege simply due to the way you look.
You don’t anything about me, where I’m from, what I’ve been through and most of all, the way I feel. You know something that I’ve learned about most whites?
Under all the false bravado and “intelligent” conversations with your facts and and statistics, you’re cowards at heart.
A little boy was murdered, in cold blood and the comments about him make me sick to my stomach. I have a wish for you and others here.
I wish with all my soul that in your next life, you’ll come back as a black man.
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dave
They couldn’t care less when someone white is murdered. They couldn’t care less when someone black is murdered. They only care now because they want to use it to incite racial hatred.
====================
demerera
I think you meant to say, “laugh all the way to the NOI rally.”
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The term “self defense” is used rather loosely in some of the colloquy above. Traditionally, “self defense” includes an element of proportionality (that is, you can’t use lethal force in response to a slap and legitimately call it “self defense”). In most states, traditionally, lethal force could only be used (a) if you have attempted all means of retreating from the danger and can retreat no further, and (b) you legitimately and reasonably believe you are in danger of serious physical injury or death. Under that traditional definition, given his ample routes of retreat, Zimmerman’s actions cannot be deemed “self defense” under any characterization of the known events.
The scope and breadth of Florida’s “stand your ground” law impacts the definition of “self defense”. The law is broadly drafted, which tends to be true of “single issue” laws drafted by interest groups (here, the NRA drafting a law to promote the use and proliferation of guns). Depending on the interpretation of that law, Zimmerman’s actions may or may not fall within the definition of “self defense” based on known circumstances.
If the “stand your ground” law does defined Zimmerman’s acts as self defense, at a visceral level it feels like this law is badly drafted.
Click to access Zimmerman_Martin_shooting_0320.pdf
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Blanc2
I agree. The way the law is written either of the two could have killed the other and legitimately claimed self-defense.
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@destructure
I think you meant to say, “laugh all the way to the NOI rally.”
I know EXACTLY what I meant and so do the ‘They’ that you keep referring to i’m sure *SMH*
I certainly do not need the likes of YOU to respond on my behalf with your interpretation.
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@Don
You’ve said: “It may be true that race was a factor in the minds of those involved in this tragedy, but for us to focus on this as a racial issue is just another manifestation of the same problem that everybody believes Zimmerman had. It does nothing but feed racism and perpetuate racial divides.
Just read truthbetold’s post. That is the post of a person who has fear of all white people because of the actions of some. That itself is tragic and that line of thinking will perpetuate the racism problem. When will we stop blanket judgement of someone based on the color of their skin? Individuals need to be judged as individuals based on the content of their character, not the color of their skin.”
The happy-feely, kumbaya, platitutes towards colorblindness is admirable but as we see here it does not translate in the real world. “Colorblindness” is just a weasel word co-opted from MLK by whites and spun to make them feel warm and fuzzy about “our” society “overcoming” “racism”. King was a ninja code switcher, too. Given all the issues King openly avdocated for and said about race and class and his anti-war statements, messages that didn’t settle with white Americans – his other more relevant and resonant messages have been ignored and his legacy sanitized. If those buzzwords “content” and “character” is all that comes to the forefront of your mind, in relation to very real situations in the lives of people of color, is – I’m sorry – insensitive.
I understand you here and clearly you are not implying anything mean spirited. I just want to you take note that we who are people of color in this country know how the game has been played here for centuries from the first Anglo dealings with Native Americans through Today. You don’t work out centuries’ worth of historical traumas overnight. You definitely can’t do it when the main purpetrators of the racism don’t believe that they could in any way be racist.
When Whites get off their hubris hobby horse and own their Whiteness, their Privilege, their Prejudices, their Power, and their Past – can the racial divide convention for All Americans even begin.
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demerera
Then, will you denounce the NOI?
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“Will we choose to consider Martin equally as a person, or will we continue to insist that he is different because he is black?”
You know what, that whole comment is a pile of nonsensical well wishing bs. Why? A person was deemed suspicious for being black and was chased down and consequently shot and the police (who are supposed to serve and protect) took the word of the shooter and let him go. He saw a black male and ran with the idea that he did something wrong. You’re not supposed to be able to shoot an unarmed person in the chest then go home and make yourself a ham sandwich.
Being part of a group that a society(and to some extent the world) flushes all of its ills and dirt unto can make it downright dangerous to go about with your head in the clouds. What happened to Trayvon is a manifestation of the result of generations of effed up ‘race theory’ and how it shapes identities, customs, policies and determines the general value of human life.
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@destructure
I denounce gratuitous posting for the sake of ones own amusement in the light of tradgedy.
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demerera
It took you 10 minutes not to answer the question? That’s okay. You answered it.
===================
Don
It appears I’m more realistic about those commenting on this blog than you are.
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This situation deeply saddens me.
@Truhbetold,
This case really gave me a wake up call. It told me that times change but people haven’t. The same White folks that were racist yesterday are still racist but they hide their racism in their words and actions.
Black lives and people don’t really mean anything to Americans.
It was manifested in Emmit Till’s murder over fifty years almost sixty years ago in the mid 1950s that Black lives don’t matter and it is still manifested today. 2012? I thought people were more tolerant today than yesterday? I guess not. People just hide their racism these days.
@Fireband
I really agree with you 100% I think Whites have to own up to their horrible past of stealing and robbing others and taking their hands. They should want to repent and stop their racist ways. But they don’t. I am NOT saying the White man is the devil but you are right. If you tell that to an average White American, they would flip. They would call you a racist. And this isn’t apply to ALL White Americans either but to a lot of them. There are some very good White Americans like there are good Black American, Hispanics and Asian Americans.
As for me, I don’t want to sound racist at all. I just want to express my opinion. If you want to argue and dispute with me, that is your business but this is my opinion.
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Peanut
Then you’d be wrong wouldn’t you. Because that’s not what the witnesses are saying.
http://goo.gl/GfuCY
“The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, ‘Help! Help!’ and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911,” said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John.
John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot.
“And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point.”
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@destructure
It took you 10 minutes not to answer the question? That’s okay. You answered it.
No darling, its merely a question of priorities, of which responding to you is not one of mine!. Perhaps you should try and find more priorities in your own life instead of exchanging posts on here to fuel your amusement at the slaying of an adolescent.
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@destructure so you say they couldn’t care less, maybe some, but do you WANT to be like the haters? Does that justify it for you. You seem as one sided the people I criticize on here.
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They say it had nothing to do with race. well….. Listen to this ( around the 1:50-1:55 mark, Listen very closely) Now , I DARE someone to tell me this had nothing to do with race.
He clearly says : F*c*en Co*ns. That is a racial slur, correct? Zimmermans intentions were clear. This is what happens when your mind is ‘high’ on whiteness.
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Apparently not everyone believes this law can be used to justify Martin’s murder. According to the sponsors of the law, Zimmerman should be arrested and charged.
Reference:
http://motherjones.com/politics/2012/03/what-happened-trayvon-martin-explained#grandjury
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dave
You strike me as one of these guys who assumes he’s brighter than most of the people he talks to. And you’re probably right most of the time. But not this time. Don’t lecture me.
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demerera
Ok. If you say so.
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THIS IS AWFUL THAT ZIMMER MAN IS GOING TO RUN & HIDE, HE AS BEEN HUNTING AWHILE TO SHOOT
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This guy hasn’t even apologiesed for the murder of this Kid. Even if you believe you were justified in defending yourself, you could at least offer an apology. So that mean this jerk isn’t even a bit remorseful.
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Interesting how there has been zero word from or news about George Zimmerman or his whereabouts. Clearly he has hidden himself well away, probably for good reason. Wannabe cop; too much of a punk to handle himself vs. a kid 100 lbs lighter, trigger-happy vigilante. I reckon we’ll see him soon enough.
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nana
I can’t tell what he’s saying. But that’s just me. Maybe we should play it backwards like “Stairway to Heaven”?
=================
wanpimao
Of course they do. They rammed a bad law through the legislature. Now, that law is at the heart of a big controversy. They can either say, “Okay. We messed up.” and lose their re-election. Or they can try to cover their butts by defending the law. Which means throwing Zimmerman under the bus.
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^^^ I wasn’t expecting YOU to hear it.
of course…
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Zimmerman belongs under the bus. It is inconceivable that any rational person can see this scenario and believe self-defense. He is attempting to use a law that does not support his actions.
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@Nana,
I hear it too, thanks for posting more proof against GZ.
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I heard it nana, The guy sounds like an idiot . I’ll bet the dispatcher just thought he was one of those crazy neighbors who call the cops on everyone and didn’t even sent a car till it was too late.
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I think it’s ridiculous how many hoops these people have to jump through just to attempt to get this guy to walk into court. He’s not even in the country at this point. They gave him a 20 day head start to run away.
And regarding self-defense, I’ve taken self-defense courses geared towards women and they do caution you not to strike first. You could be charged with assault even if you believe someone intends to threaten you or do bodily harm unto you. They first teach you non-physical actions such as stepping to the side, and also making verbal commands to let someone know that you feel threatened and that you’re prepared to defend yourself. There are lot of steps to take before ever becoming physical or violent with someone. Self-defense means reacting to assault, not being the first one to throw a punch. In this situation Zimmerman is intending bodily harm to a boy who probably doesn’t even know he’s neighborhood watch. Sometimes cops don’t identify themselves as cops first, and then they expect you to treat them like an authority figure and then berate for not obeying them. I feel that’s very dangerous and dishonest.
Trayvon had every reason to this this guy might try to rape him, kidnap him, mug him, and kill him. Black children are disproportionate victims in kidnapping, human trafficking, sexual assault and molestation cases. Partly b/c people like the police in this situation are unwilling to treat them seriously and like human beings.
You remember the story about the 2nd generation black girl who disappeared after a trip to a fast food joint? She was being held in a basement in her neighborhood and the police kept dodging her mom who knew her daughter wouldn’t just disappear like that for no reason. If the police had treated the situation more seriously, and if the bystanders who knew of her location had just said SOMETHING, she wouldn’t have had to die.
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Abagond,
That right there says it all. This is by no means an exaggeration.
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@ Keeks
That girl was Romona Moore:
That case shows that “A black person’s life has no more value than that of a dog” is not an exaggeration.
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@ Nana
Wow. Even by white standards that makes him a racist.
He is Hispanic all the way now – even though the police saw him as white and certainly gave him the good old White Benefit of the Doubt.
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* Brothawolf – Abagond
“A black person’s life has no more value than that of a dog.
Unarmed black males are presumed to be more dangerous than armed white males.”
***********************
Interesting – that a “famous” BLACK celebrity pro football quarterback, Michael Vick was arrested, convicted and went to prison for being involved in the killing of – DOGS.
But when a black person is killed, the perpetrator/suspect, if white, is afforded privileges, protection, cover-ups, the power of the state, witness tampering, a shoddy investigation, presumption of innocence in spite of all, or questionable, evidence to the contrary.
This, coupled with America’s illustrious racial history, causes me to believe that America really values the lives of pets and livestock more than the lives of black people.
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Nana:
What makes you think that only someone “high on whiteness” could use a slur against a black person?
Sadly, this tragic incident is serving as a Rorschach Test by which great numbers of people are revealing their own prejudice.
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Is it only a problem when a non-black person kills a black person? I mean, there are dozens of black people getting killed by other black people every day, many much younger and even more special than Trayvon. Is it kind of like it is okay for black people to say “the n word”but not anyone else?
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And don’t say that the “police let him go” unless you are also going to state that the police have never let a black shooter go in any other case.
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Matari,
Interesting – that a “famous” BLACK celebrity pro football quarterback, Michael Vick was arrested, convicted and went to prison for being involved in the killing of – DOGS.
Yea, and even after he paid his debt to society and apologized, a many white people, including conservative Tucker Carlson, not only did not want to forgive him, but they also thought that his sentence wasn’t harsh enough.
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I really cannot comment any more on what happened to Trayvon with all the mess surrounding it and people talking while wearing blindfolds with their fingers in their ears.
I will say that, even though I’m a long way from the US and am not Black, this scares me. It scares me because of what I’ve heard Zimmerman has said and what his father has said to defend him. It’s frightening because I know and have known people who say and do the same things. It seems like they are just ignorant from those individual events, but this shows you can never know the depth of their prejudiced hatred and how far they will go with it.
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Jojo,
First of all, we are more than aware that black people are getting killed by other blacks, but that is not an ongoing saga that is restricted to just blacks. Most murders occur within their own groups(races).
Second, we are also outraged over that as well as this tragedy, and unlike many white people who don’t care about them but in the same breath expects the nation to pause whenever a white girl goes missing, there are black people who are actively doing something about it.
Third, it is asinine to determine that there are black youth “more special” than Trayvon. EVERY black youth is special.
Fourth, the fact that Trayvon was murdered by a white man opens racial wounds. You see, for many years, white people have murdered blacks without so much as a slap on the wrist. There have been times that the suspects have been let go because of all-white juries which is still a factor in courts today in some places. So, this is just a reminder that the chances are okay that a white person can kill a black person without facing the wrath of the so-called criminal justice system.
The opposite is true with black suspects of white murders of course.
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<Mental Note, this story was on Dr. Drew Headline News tonight they spent 30 minutes on it. I'm sure it has been in other major venues as well.
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This REALLY needs to go to court with Zimmerman charged with murder. All of the facts can come out, and he can explain why he followed this boy after being told not to. My sense is that Zimmerman is like that gun nut in Highlander, just looking for a reason to use his weapons. I don’t see how you can claim self-defense when you are seeking out what you claim is danger. It is getting enough press now that hopefully it will happen.
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I can’t help but think about the Sean Bell case. It’s just sad, that boy still has his babyface on him.
Zimmerman was ampt with the feeling of power, “I’m the neighborhood protector,” “only I can save this neighborhood from the evils of society.”
I wonder if he though that over extending himself in such a matter would make him the most dangerous one in the neighborhood?
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@ Jojo
It is totally like that. Murder has become an accepted social norm within the black community. Everyone knows it. Black mothers cry over their murdered children only when a white person kills them. They are totally okay with other black people killing them. It saves on groceries and Christmases – sorry, Kwanzaas.
The black outrage over Trayvon is so fake and hypocritical. As always they are just looking for a reason to whine and blame whites instead of getting on with their lives and doing something productive for once.
They are the same way about the Klan. I am pretty sure way more black people have been beaten up and killed by other blacks than by the Klan, even in the 1920s when the Klan was at its height. So why is the Klan a big deal? Blacks say the Klan is racist but THEY are the racist ones. They see racism in everything. If they took the time to check the facts instead of being ruled by emotion and prejudice, they would know that the Klan beat up and killed white people too! It is well documented. Something black people never talk about. They just want an excuse to hate and blame others.
/end of sarcasm
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Well played, Abagond. Well played.
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Florida…must be something in the water there.
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@ destructure
Finally, something we can both agree on.
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“- Are following him?
– Yeah.
– We don’t need you to do that.
– Okay.”
And he did what?
I think it is clear from that tape that the dispatcher he is talking to is trying to tell mr Zimmerman to stay put, meet the police at mailboxes, what ever, and this guy is already on the move, going after the kid, and saying okay, as if he agrees, and then he says call me later. Wow.
The whole scenario seems to be pretty clear to me. This guy is setting himself a self defense right from the start. “He is on drugs”. How the fK mr Zimmerman could tell that from inside his car? He could not, of course, but he needed this on tape too, for his self defense arguments later on.
“He’s coming to check me out”. Yeah, sure, and then he’s off running and mr Zimmerman bolts after him.
I’ve heard many tapes, including tapes of mobsters etc. doing and talking crime, some of them have been used in courts as evidence, and let me tell you one thing: those tapes, which have sent dozens of mobsters to jails, are not nearly as clear as these.
There is no doubt what so ever. This guy is a murderer. He wet after the kid AFTER HE WAS TOLD, NOT ONCE, BUT FEW TIMES, TO WAIT THE POLICE, TO STAY AWAY FROM THE KID.
I can not believe that anyone can claim this as self defense anymore than any other murder.
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Even though I followed this blog for a year, this is my first time to post a comment. As a black mother of four sons, Trayvon’s murder really pierces my heart. I have always taught my 13 year old son to love people of all races. Contrarily, he already knows how he is viewed in America. When I was growing up in New Jersey, my Nigerian father always told my sister and I to stay away from white neighborhoods. He never told us why, but now I know the reason.
My husband and I were planning to move to Orlando, FL. After the Trayvon shooting, I am scared of relocating.
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The fox commentators are at it again this time attacking Trayvon:
http://macklyons.blogspot.com/2012/03/little-thug-ghetto-monkey-should-have.html
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** Reading the FOX commentaries on macklyons regarding Trayvon:
– confirms the permanence of racism.
– confirms what a plethora of whites think and say: backstage, behind keyboards, and closed doors. The very same whites who make decisions about who/how gets shown/portrayed in the media, gets hired, fired, a loan, access to an apartment, entry to a campus – or prison.
– reaffirms why I don’t really consider myself an American even though my lineage can be traced back for several generations in the US.
Whites cannot begin to fathom:
– the unnecessary damage done to us via whiteness
– the debilitating effects of persistent racism upon our psyche
– the tremendous unpaid debt they owe our fore-bearers and us, their survivors, the descendants of those who were stolen from Africa who are still oppressed, mistreated and marginalized in a very racist system.
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The more I read news about Trayvon’s murder, the more incense/disgust I feel over how this situation has been handled if that’s even possible. *smh*.
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One thing, are white supremacists who do not place black people at the bottom rare in the USA?
You know, in the not as good as real whites, but better than Chinese, North Africans,…
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@TheFireBrand
Put very simply, being wronged does not justify wronging others. You say that ages of racial prejudice and injustice can not be healed over-night. Okay, so when can they be healed? What is the timeframe? Is it insensitive to ask for a timeframe? If there is no timeframe the only logical answer is “never”. And if the only answer is “never”, who’s fault is that?
Like I said in my first post, until the decision is made on all fronts to stop the line of thinking that perpetuates racism on all fronts, racism will never die. All racism is equally evil and unjustified, all racism needs to end.
@truthbetold
Yes I do not know you, anything about you, or anything about your experiences. What I do know is that you want to hate white people. You have my sympathies for whatever has encouraged you to want to carry that burden of hate.
@all.
Black people are not worth nothing in America. Black people are people just like white people and any other creed of people. A man was killed. A human being with as much right to life as you or I, had that life stolen from him. That is the tragedy of this incident and my prayers are with his family.
There are still individuals that have problems, yes, but judge the individuals rather than the whole, and the alienation of entire groups of people will stop, and the numbers of those individuals will dwindle. Hate is a choice.
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@Cece D
You can’t blame that on Fox, those are quotes from the comments section, not statements by Fox media.
You can not hold Fox responsible for those comments any more than you can hold Abagond responsible for our comments here in this blog.
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@Don,
Fox News websites consistently post comments like that all the time, over and over for years now. I used to try to counter some of those comments but it was impossible because their writers support those thoughts ideas and promote them.
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I was thinking that those comments from MackLyons were made by Bliff, destructure or no-slappz but then I read that sparkle blog article that Abagond links to.
I do think there are many white people who are calling for the arrest of Zimmerman, but then again, there are an awful lot of Bliffs walking around, too.
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@vanishingpoint
Yeah I can believe it’s a place where idiots congregate. What have you seen to suggest that Fox employees support and promote those ideas though?
@Cece D
When you wrote “Commentators” I thought you meant Fox employees, which are often called commentators. I think now you probably mean the random people posting comments on the article. So I was confused and wrongly accused you of trying to blame Fox for something they don’t control. Sorry about that.
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@Don
Who was blaming anything on fox? If you read my post I was talking about the commentators. They are making the same racist comments as they did when Whitney Houston died. That section is a notorious dumping ground for the ignorant and racist, especially now during Obama’s presidency.
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@Cece D
Right, the term commentators confused me as to who you were talking about at first, as commentators is also a term used to mean reporters, anchors, etc. I followed up a little while later to say that I realized what you really meant, and to apologize for my error in accusing you of blaming Fox. Again, I’m sorry.
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@Don
Thank you for the apology 🙂
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@Don,
you can try this link and read some of Newhound’s posts for starters http://www.newshounds.us/
Or just listen to Fox ppl like Glen Beck, Sean Hannity, Bill O’Reilly just to name of few of Fox’s “reporters”
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@vanishingpoint
Now read my comment at “Trayvon Martin” post Mon 19 Mar 2012 at 18:56:52. What did I say? What did I SAY!! Something like this, perhaps, “Personally, I think GZ was a loose cannon and there is enough to send him to trial.”
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@truthbetold
You made an interesting comment,
“You know something that I’ve learned about most whites?
Under all the false bravado and “intelligent” conversations with your facts and and statistics, you’re cowards at heart.”
You’ve learned that most whites are cowards.
How did you learn that most whites are cowards?
What do whites do or say, in response or reaction to your method of determination, that qualifies them as cowards?
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@Bliff, to answer your question:
Here is just 3(THREE) samples of your comments about Trayvon Martin:
*****
What is wrong with the police’s reaction? They have to thoroughly investigate before they take any legal action. Apparently, they’re not done with the investigation or have decided to take no action.
Will the blacks ever be done with their racist hyperbole, where they make exaggerated statements like this in every incident, while ignoring their own excessive violent crime rate.?
A group that champions obvious murderers like OJ Simpson, Mumia Jamal, and Troy Anthony Davis has much to think about.
In nearly every situation ending up like this, especially in situations with the police, an important element in the chain of events leading up to the tragedy, the black man has committed some form of violence or defiance. This happened here where Trayvon punched Zimmerman, resulting in a fight. I’m not saying this one element in the chain of events is solely responsible for the outcome, but it is a critical element. And one that black men need to take responsbility. It cannot be ignored, like it appears to be in this thread.
___
See what I mean, Bliff?
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@destructure
I want you to know that I feel extremely sorry for you.
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@ Don
Without derailing this post, I will answer briefly on Open Thread.
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@ truthbetold
That is fair, thank you!
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@vanishingpoint
Yep, and I still stand by those statements. That was part of my assessment about the Trayvon Martin case and other black cases. And I still believe GZ should go to trial. No discrepancy whatsoever.
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So Bliff according to your previous post you think Trayvon threw the first punch.
So according to your logic Mr. Zimmerman has the right to defend himself agaisnt an unarmed Trayvon. But the same Kid doesn’t have the right to defend himself against an armed lunatic who chased him down and trapped him in a corner. Even Mice when trapped in a corner will fight back to defend themselves if they feel they are threatended.
If and thats a big If Trayvon did throw the first punch in his mind based off the phone conversation with his Girl Friend. It was in self defense from a potential sex offender, racist, a thief or just some maniac lunatic serial killer/ canabal. (Like a Jeffery Darma). For you to say he shouldn’t have hit him is just ignorant and unrealistic.
If some strange Fat man came after me in the dark and tried to corner me, I am gonna defend myself. In my mind I have no idea what he wants or why he is after me. Based on the facts Zimmerman fits the description of a kidnapper, stalking his victim in a dark van following him, cornering him, and because he couldn’t get his victim to submit he killed him.
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@son2380
But the same Kid doesn’t have the right to defend himself against an armed lunatic who chased him down and trapped him in a corner. You are assuming you know all the chain of events and in what order they occurred, which you do not know. No one knows if Martin went up to GZ and sucker-punched him and that’s what set him off, or, if Martin punched GZ because he was chasing him. That will have to come out in the investigation and trial.
I made some statements about the killing which vanishingpoint has reproduced. Note that I have stated about 4 or 5 times now that GZ should be indicted and sent to trial. Somehow this does not seem to get through to the hot heads here on this blog.
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@ Abagond
How do you read all the comments here, especially Bliff’s, without vomiting?
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@truthbetold
I always breathe into a paper bag before I read your comments.
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I agree with truthbetold. This murder is a wake up call to blacks EVERYWHERE. To me it perfectly exemplifies the old axiom: the more things change, the more they stay the same. The hearts of many whites have not changed, just the laws. Now that we have a black president and the numbers of immigrants of color continue to increase, the racists are fearful. When Obama wins a second term, these MFs will lose their minds.
Treyvon could have been any member of my family, he could have been me. The next thing you know these racists will be demanding that blacks carry papers like in slavery days to cross into “white” neighborhoods or be anywhere the white man feels we should not be.
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@truthbetold
Bliff is operating on the belief that white men are more moral and believable than blacks, and that we should submit and be subservient to the almighty white man.
If some weirdo was following me, I too would fight back with all I had and so would Bliff. And we DO know the order of events. It’s clear from the 911 tapes. Zimmerman should have stayed in his car and was told to do so. It is NOT self defense when you stalk and murder someone.
It is unrealistic to believe that someone whom you’ve chosen to stalk and who doesn’t know you from Adam is not going to fight you off. Whatever Treyvon’s actions, Zimmerman lost all his credibility by getting out of his car.
Clearly the racist, predominately white police force is covering for the man. Just like they covered up and committed crimes in the days of Jim Crow. Thankfully the Justice Department has become involved. Hopefully they will ive up to their name.
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@Abagond & all,
It looks like Bliff has highjacked JT, click on the link to the name, it says personinmotion, or maybe it is always possible that my eyes are playing tricks on me.
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@ poetess
My grandma used to say that all the time, by the way. ” The more things change, the more they remain the same.” She was Lakota. She knew.
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The creators of the “Stand Your Ground” are thinking about having their law amended since it seems interpretation is a problem.
“From Huffington Post 3-21-12
Police said that without evidence proving that Zimmerman attacked Martin first, they had no grounds to charge him with a crime.
Dennis Baxley, a Republican state representative and co-author of the 2005 self-defense law, said Zimmerman negated his ability to claim immunity under the law by chasing Martin.
“This law is for innocent, law-abiding citizens who are under attack by a perpetrator,” Baxley told The Huffington Post. “Anyone who is out pursuing and confronting people is not protected by this statute.”
“I think they need to go back and read the statute,” Baxley said, referring to the Sanford Police Department.
Former Republican State Sen. Durell Peadon, another co-author of the law, said Zimmerman “has no protection under my law.”
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I call BS, Martin is the only one who had a right to “stand his ground” and defend himself from a creepy, stalker guy who came out of the dark and accosted him.
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Yeah I can believe it’s a place where idiots congregate. What have you seen to suggest that Fox employees support and promote those ideas though
Are you a shill for Fox TV? Is that you Don Imus?
What do whites do or say, in response or reaction to your method of determination, that qualifies them as cowards?
Wrong question.. Should read; What don’t whites do or say that qualifies them as cowards?
Will the blacks ever be done with their racist hyperbole, where they make exaggerated statements like this in every incident, while ignoring their own excessive violent crime rate
Unlike your ‘racist’ hyperbole stating that blacks have lower IQ’s and weak impulse controls, hence their inability to be up to speed with other Americans. Is that love talk?
the black man has committed some form of violence or defiance.
Yes, walking with a bag of candies and a can of pop is an extreme act of violence.
And one that black men need to take responsbility.
Yes black men, take responsibility for buying pop and candies, you may get shot if you don’t.
I always breathe into a paper bag before I read your comments.
Go f#rt in a wind tunnel instead as you are full of it ‘Bliff’.
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It does sound as if, after Zimmerman tried to physically accost Trayvon, Tray unleashed a can of whupass and Zimmerman was too much of a fat, lazy punk to defend himself against a kid 100 lbs lighter than his fat ass. This makes Zimmerman a fat, racist punk, a pathetic wannabe cop, an ignorant vigilante, and a murderer. It may be that the “stand your ground” law creates a loophole that enables him to escape criminal charges, but it does not alter the fundamental shape of his character as described above.
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That is the first time I have ever read such insults coming from you Blanc! Carry on!
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So, wait… Zimmerman isn’t white?
For some reason I thought he was Jewish (because of the last name. Not that I’m familiar with the last name system in the US, but I thought this was a Jewish last name… It’s Bob Dylan’s last name and he’s Jewish.) And I thought Jews are seen as white i the US. I don’t get it.
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@Mira
There are two categories of white in the US: white-hispanic and white-non-hispanic. George Zimmerman is white-hispanic.
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Thanks. I know about white-Hispanic not really being seen as white. I had no idea Zimmerman was Hispanic, though.
Does this change the nature of the story? Will (WASP) media now go: “true, he’s guilty, but he’s Hispanic, so this is really just a case of a pair of POC fighting on the streets”, not a big deal?
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Yeah, it started a while ago. White people everywhere are throwing up their hurrahs.
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So, now they admit he’s guilty?
(And he’s still not arrested?)
This is so sad… And I’m not just talking about the young man who died, though the saddest thing about this case is that young innocent men die all the time and nobody pays attention unless it provokes deeper social controversies/reactions.
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I’m kind of curious as to where this Mr.Zimmerman is at the moment. perhaps hiding no doubt
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He needs to be reminded of what his true character is. His dad, in his ignorant and rather pathetic attempt to come to his defense, alluded to the notion that Zimmerman was suffering because of the scorn and contempt of the nation, that this was something he has to live with every day, as if that somehow eclipses the stark fact that Tray Martin is dead. I’m a father of a son who could very easily be Tray Martin. What gets me in all of the coverage is that the media has not done a very good job of articulating several issues: Point (1) Zimmerman, when he accosted Tray, would have seemed to Tray as a random strange adult trying to kidnap or otherwise harm him. Tray responded precisely as all parents train our children to respond. His response was commendable. Point (2) Zimmerman is a loser in life and a wannabe cop, which makes him a human hyena, a vigilante, somebody that is pathetic and literally a laughingstock but for his remorseless resort to violence in pursuit of his wannabe cop glory. Point (3) Zimmerman was too much of a punk to finish what he started like a man. He had to resort to punk tactics.
This is where my vitriol lies: as a parent, as a citizen, as a man. Zimmerman is offensive to me on all of these levels.
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@Herneith
“Are you a shill for Fox TV? Is that you Don Imus?”
No.
Wrong question.. Should read; What don’t whites do or say that qualifies them as cowards?
What a childish thing to say.
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So,
Does anyone find it interesting that Zimmerman used that “Stand Your Ground” stuff to get away with murder so far?
Does anyone honestly think that if the color of the two people were reversed Zimmerman would be in jail already with people crying out for blood, and Trayvon would have laws in his name? Wouldn’t people be trying to prove some violent pathology that black people need to shoot and attack people due to Zimmerman being implicated in that shooting? Wouldn’t the cops have put him away at the very start?
I think so.
The tapes are horrifying. To think that a white man can stalk and murder a person of color, then be treated like a victim while the murder victim can be treated like the perpetrator…it’s sickening that even now, Trayvon is not treated like an individual who was horribly murdered by a racist freak who should never have been allowed to carry a gun, let alone patrol with any neighborhood watch…he’s treated like a sign of failings in the black community. That’s just sick.
It reminds me too much of those stories of white men running into to “uppity” black boys and murdering them that we saw so much of decades ago.
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I really wanted to wait to put a contrary position out there because I have a son and if this happened to him who knows what I would do. I would just like to say that white people in general shouldn’t be held accountable for this. GZ should, the cops should, the local DA should and the people who make the laws in Florida should.
Seung-Hui Cho, killed 32 people and wounded 25 during the Virginia tech massacre. I never personally heard any white person holding all Asians accountable. I feel like the battle between the races can go both ways.
But when a sick white criminal makes a black person his victim it seems like black people take it more personally than white people do in a similar situation.
There have been many white men and women and kids beaten and killed and terrorized by blacks in the last ten years. But it seems like to me that it goes under the radar as poor black crime and not hate or prejudice or racism. We ALL need to stop.
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But I do feel your pain. Zimmerman had a racist agenda and hatred from the jump ………and he took it out on this kid. I do blame the media in part for that. When inner city crime is blasted all over the news yahoos like this feel they are justified in their sick deranged head.
All I’m saying is there are people like that in all races. Maybe you are right maybe there are more white guys like that…..I don’t know. But I do know that there are black nuts out there who have punched out old people during a robbery than may not have done the same thing to an old black person.
Don is right all people should be viewed the same. And all people should go after this Zimmerman and demand justice. But when the same thing happens the other way around don’t turn a blind eye.
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@Don
“Put very simply, being wronged does not justify wronging others.
— I absolutely agree with you.
You say that ages of racial prejudice and injustice can not be healed over-night. Okay, so when can they be healed?
— When white people’s vision switches over to technicolor?
— What is the timeframe? erm…However long it takes?…
— Is it insensitive to ask for a timeframe? –How/Why does it matter?
— If there is no timeframe the only logical answer is “never”. And if the only answer is “never”, who’s fault is that?” …White peoples. It’s white racism (overt and covert) that is never going to go away until you all become honest with your history in relation to POC and treat the histories of POC as valid and necessary parts of the bigger story of America of being studied a little better than not at all.
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I have, unlike most of you on this site, researched both Mr. Martin’s family’s third party view of what happened, The HISPANIC Mr. Zimmerman’s, ( yes, it’s so true- look up his own father’s outraged interview), The fact that the police did a crime scene thorough investigation- declaring no guilt present in Mr. Zimmerman at all, and all the racist people trying to use this poor man’s death as another reason to hate a different race, (white or black).
The fact’s are simple:
Mr. Zimmerman was licensed by the State of Florida to carry a concealed weapon, which he must have felt was necessary to protect himself because of where he lived in his neighborhood. Mr Zimmerman had a four year background in criminal justice, and was very knowledgeable in matters of personal security. That is why he was placed on the community watch in his neighborhood.
Mr Martin was wearing clothing a dark colored hood and clothes that any one trained in law enforcement like Zimmerman was, http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57398745-504083/trayvon-martin-case-george-zimmermans-father-tells-a-newspaper-his-son-is-not-a-racist/ , would reasonably assume that Mr. Martin MIGHT have been breaking into/ or had already broken into one of the local homes. That reasonable cause would have been enough to try to see if he was another of the other youths from the local area to Twin Lakes, where Zimmerman patrolled, that were breaking into the neighborhood.
Mr Zimmerman called police to report the incident, and they noted this in their records, recommending Zimmerman wait for assistance. He did not, wishing to ask the 17 year old football- playing man a question about why he was out so late in the neighborhood. Mr. martin got agitated according to the records and started a fight with the neighborhood patrolman, beating him so much there was a groove worn into the grass, stains all over the back of his shirt, and bloody bruises were found on the back of Mr. Zimmerman’s head. His face was found bloody as well.
Mr. Martin was beating him to death. Plain and simple. Another report said Mr. Martin was suspended from school, and that is perhaps why he was so angry- who knows, but the evidence was substantial. The police followed due process at the scene when finding out that Mr. Martin was shot AFTER nearly killing Mr. Zimmerman with his bare hands!
This was not an innocent man like we see the media curtailing all of the sudden towards the racist views of some people.
This was self defense.
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Danasaur Jr.,
Even if Trayvon was agressive, he may still be a victim, like others.
PTSD, for example, will make a U.S. soldier (or ex-soldier) shoot lots of people and generally act bizzare.
Since the events of 911, many people suffer from PTSD.
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He nearly killed the man. It was Zimmerman who called out for help, and had the back of his skull bashed in. Not to mention a bloodied face and a beating by the much older man than pictured in the medias circus we see on the television and internet lately. He was only months away from 18. almost a grown man and powerful enough to nearly kill Zimmerman and force him to shoot out of fear for his life.
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from what i understand zimmerman was runing towards martin. go figure. lock him up and throw away the key – and florida should review that ridiculous law!!
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He did not go up to martin waving a gun if that’s what you are trying to say. Not at all. As the neighborhood watch captain, he was supposed to ask questions to suspicious people and try and detain them if possible for the police to catch them if they were believed to have committed a crime. All he did was walk up to Martin and Martin screamed at him and started beating the hell out of him. Zimmerman called for help, but none came, and Martin proceeded to beat his face and head into the ground to the point where he was almost dead.
This is where Zimmerman made a decision it was life or death and he shot Martin AS THE POLICE STATED, in Self Defense! Why is everyone playing the race card in this and trying to fry Zimmerman? He was the victim here!
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Dano:
Excuse me? The “fact’s”? There is no apostrophe in a plural of “fact”. It appears that the balance of your “research” on this matter is as robust as your grammar.
Zimmerman was not “appointed neighborhood watch captain”. In fact, he was not part of any organized neighborhood watch program at all. Rather, he was a self-appointed wannabe cop with visions of vigilante glory. Residents of his community were uncomfortable with his glowering presence as he prowled the neighborhood glaring at black boys.
Zimmeman physically confronted Martin, who was lawfully in the place of the confrontation and was not committing any criminal act. At the time of confrontation, from Martin’s perspective, Zimmerman was not a police officer or any other official. He was simply a strange adult who approached Martin, shoved him, and otherwise assaulted Martin. The most rational conclusion was that Zimmerman was a mugger or pedophile.
Martin responded in exactly the way any prudent parent would counsel his child to respond to an assault from a strange, random adult. His response was commendable. Zimmerman’s head was not “bashed in”. He had a bloody nose and a cut. It does appear that Martin, at 140 lbs, did best Zimmerman, at 250, in the fight. Zimmerman was fat and weak, a punk unable to handle the consequences of the physical altercation that he himself started.
Under those facts, there is no conceivable interpretation of this circumstance that would support a finding of self under traditional American common law. There may perhaps be a loophole under Florida’s overbroad “stand your ground” law that might enable Zimmerman to escape criminal prosecution.
As to race, we know that Zimmerman had, previous to this incident, circulated around the neighborhood a “warning” flyer telling residents to watch out for black young men. He was, in other words, specifically fixated on the idea that black young men in his neighborhood were criminals.
Specifically as to Trayvon, Zimmerman specifically mentioned Trayvon’s race to the police. He commented at length about how he felt that there was “something wrong” with Trayvon, about how he believed Trayvon was “high” or otherwise intoxicated, how Trayvon was “up to something”. He mentioned more than once that Trayvon was “carrying something”, implying a possible weapon.
Of course we know that none of these impressions were correct. In fact, Trayvon was no under the influence of any intoxicant. In fact, Trayvon was not committing any criminal act, or any act at all other than lawfully walking back to the home where he was staying, taking his time because he was enjoying a phone call with his girlfriend, an act that countless young men engage in every day. The fact that Zimmerman’s impression of Trayvon was so patently wrong is evidence of Zimmerman’s predisposition to conclude that a young man is a criminal because he is black — his prejudice, in the classic sense of the word, meaning “pre” (in advance, or before) “judice” (to make a judgment): to make a judgment in advance of knowing facts, based in this instance solely on the race and gender of the individual.
In addition, there is the mumbled comment on Zimmerman’s tape that sounds an awful lot like “f*cking c**ns” to pretty much everybody who has heard it. Possible further evidence of prejudice.
As to character, we know that Zimmerman had at least one violent confrontation with police in his past, and he had at least one domestic violence restraining order filed against him by a girlfriend. He was unemployed or marginally employed, living with his dad at the time — a 30-year old man sponging off his dad because he’s too much of a punk to be self-sufficient.
In contrast, Trayvon was a high performing student with aspirations to attend college. His “suspension” from school, per a public comment by his teacher, was because he was tardy a few times, which for most kids is normally an indictment of the parent (who is responsible for getting the kid to school), not the kid.
The end result is that a promising young man, an asset to American society is dead, while a loser punk deadbeat, somebody who will likely be on goverment assistance for much of his life, deadweight (and, given his obesity, a lot of it) to American society, remains free. America is a victim here along with the Martin family.
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Incidentally, Florida’s “stand your ground” law applies also to Trayvon. In other words, when Zimmerman confronted him and shoved him, Trayvon was within his rights to open up a can of whupass rather than turn and run (though here Trayvon was cornered by Zimmerman and could not run). Unfortunately, though, by making that choice Trayvon may have unwittingly enabled Zimmerman to now use the “stand your ground” loophole with respect to his own choice to use deadly force vs. Trayvon.
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Right now, it looks like Zimmerman–who is Latino despite the last name—had had it with thugs in his neighborhood and decided to take a stand. He got overzealous and shot a kid who had left his father’s home to go to the grocery store. It’s a pretty good argument for not taking the law into your own hands.
This is just the kind of case the media loves. The media loves them some white-on-Black crime. My liberal Facebook friends are already posting “I AM TRAYVON MARTIN” banners. His death will now be linked to the dozen or so white-perp’d crimes over the last quarter century or so that somehow proves America is awash in an epidemic of white-on-Black hate crimes. Castle doctrine laws will be rolled back, police will be ordered to go soft-on-crime in Black neighborhoods, and this case will be brought up for the next decade in order to derail legit discussion about the color of crime in America. It’s been 14 years since Jasper, Texas and Columbine. The Duke Rape case and the Jena 6 were frauds, so the liberals and the poverty-pimps needed a crime like this one. They’ll just have to settle for Latino-on-Black crime this time.
Meanwhile this last weekend just blocks from my house a 19-year old ballerina from Bulgaria studying at the prestigious Milton Rock ballet school was crossing the street and was hit by a drunk driver who then smashed into three parked cars and fled the scene. She died on Monday from the injuries, the 17-year old Black perp was arrested when he returned to the scene to retrieve stuff from his car. Also a 44-year old Philadelphia Chinese man died of injuries from being kicked by a Black teenager who felt the victim had overcharged him 25 cents. Philly DA Seth Williams is still deciding whether to charge the perp with murder. Neither of these made national headlines because they’re Black-on-insert-ethnic group-here crime. I guess a man’s life isn’t worth a quarter when it’s a Black-on-Asian crime.
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Blanc2…..
Looks like you misspell as well- we’re human.
“Zimmeman physically confronted Martin, who was lawfully in the place of the confrontation and was not committing any criminal act. At the time of confrontation, from Martin’s perspective, Zimmerman was not a police officer or any other official. He was simply a strange adult who approached Martin, shoved him, and otherwise assaulted Martin. The most rational conclusion was that Zimmerman was a mugger or pedophile.”
The name is Zimmerman, and there is no proof that Martin was shoved at all. And Yes there IS other sites than the biased ones you are looking at that tell the facts of the beating Zimmerman received from Martin. It was much worse than what your friend’s family told you.
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These white commenters live like in an alternate universe.
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@ Abagond
Scary isn’t it?
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This issue has certainly cooled off since everyone found out Zimmerman isn’t white. Even so, some people are still referring to this as a case of “white racism.”
I also like how Zimmermans family went out of their way to say “he’s a Hispanic, and not a racist.”
Basically saying that he can’t be a racist because he’s not white.
By the way, google an image of Zimmerman. He’s not white.
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Zimmerman isn’t white, so I don’t know why people are using this as a case of “white on black” violence. I think those who leapt at the assumption he was white should apologize to the white community.
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Abagond
I’m going to crosspost a bit from 2 blogs.
Renee over at Womanist Musings has written about the story and I have been waiting eagerly for her input as a Black mother who regularly writes about how she has to groom her young boys for racial situations that cannot be avoided due not because they are Black children – but because the behavior of White society towards Black people can negatively and fatally affect her children at any time.
“The happiest days of my life were the days each one of my precious sons were born. I remember looking at them as this overwhelming feeling of love washed over me. I didn’t know at the time of their birth that this would only be a starting point. Though my children have given me much joy, I have already had many sleepless nights worrying about their future. The world has so many negative realities for a Black child, and no matter how much we love them, or strive to protect them, the truth of the matter is that we are helpless in the face of White supremacy and racism.
…I worry about the kind of education that my boys are receiving and if they are being marked fairly. I worry about the hate that I know they will have to struggle not to internalize.
… I worry about the hate that I know they will have to struggle not to internalize. The moment they leave the safety of our home, their race and their gender marks them in a way that no White person can ever really understand.
… Zimmerman said repeatedly that Trayvon looked suspicious, and yet all he saw was a young Black male wearing a hoody. He could only be perceived as suspicious, because Black males are socially constructed as violent criminals or thieves.
… what I have seen to often is the belief that what happened to him is the exception, rather than the rule. White supremacy has long preyed upon our children. Black mothers have spent generations crying at the funerals of our beloved children and still yet, when these incidents happen, they continue to be constructed as isolated. What they represent is an ongoing violent war against children both girl and boys, as well as men and women by White supremacy. It is meant to demoralize and terrorize us. Just as the murder of Emmett Till brought terror to the Black community, so to does the death of Trayvon Martin.”
**The takeaway point: “There is nothing that Trayvon could have done to protect himself, because Black to Zimmerman meant threat and violence; however, if one examines the history of violence between the races, it is clear, it is Whiteness who has been predatory, inhumane and unarguably violent towards people of color.”
Read the entire post on her blog: http://tinyurl.com/womanistmusings
Her highlight of the historical treatment is a great link to the two very poignant pieces posted over at WeAreRespectableNegroes.blogspot.com
The first piece has video and audio imbedded so I encourage you to head over there: “Chauncey DeVega on the BBC & Treyvon Martin and Black People’s Magical Power to Transform Harmless Objects Into Guns”
The 2nd post:
“George Zimmerman, the Murder of Trayvon Martin, and the Twenty-First Century Slave Patrol”
If there is a version of Godwin’s law for discussing African American slavery and the Black Holocaust I always try to step delicately around it. Far too often words such as “lynching,” “racism,” “field negro,” “house negro,” “plantation,” and “slave catcher” are thrown around with casual disregard for the historical weight which they carry.
In following the most recent developments regarding the murder of Trayvon Martin, I keep returning to one thought.
So much of the existential, psychic, and emotional violence afflicted on people of color in this society is prefaced on a basic idea: there are those who “naturally” belong to a political community and others who are perpetual “guests,” “outsiders,” or “anti-citizens.”
The Black Freedom Struggle was many things: primarily, it was about a fight for civic inclusion, equality, and dignity. The Black Freedom Struggle was also centered on a politics of respectability which keenly understood that white supremacy was dependent on a basic premise: the lowest white person is automatically elevated in social stature, respect, and accomplishment over the most accomplished, brilliant, intelligent, and graceful black person.
Of course, these norms have been massaged and “evolved” to fit the “colorblind” post Civil Rights era. They still exist however, and are as ugly, pernicious (and at times) violent as ever.
Read the rest here:
http://tinyurl.com/respectablenegroes
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@The FireBrand
So it sounds like because of the actions of some white people, you have determined that all white people owe you a debt.
Okay, what do white people as a whole, who have all been declared guilty by you as a result of your judgement that all white people inherit the crimes of some, need to do to make things right so that you can forgive and move on?
And the important follow-up question to that. What if only 1/2 the white population follows your outlined steps? Will you consider individuals individually, or will you continue to judge a whole group of people based on the actions of the worst of them?
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@ truthbetold
it’s delusional thinking at best. The more things change, the more things stay the same *SMH*
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@Don
I’m ignoring you. Just stay in your own world sir as you cannot comprehend anything I have written.
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@The FireBrand
I know that you’re ignoring me. You’ve been ignoring me since the beginning, because I’m asking the real questions and shedding light on the real systemic problem.
The real face of racism is still strong and pervasive. It is a way of thinking that far too many people still have. YOU FireBrand, *choose* to create the group “white people” and “black people” in YOUR mind due to the COLOR OF SKIN. YOU FireBrand continue to indulge in skin-color biased rationale.
Until people *stop thinking like you*, racism will continue to live on. YOU are part of the problem. And I will never stop clanging that bell until I die, or the world wakes up.
There is only ONE GROUP of people, ALL PEOPLE. And they are all *individuals* and deserve to be considered *individually*.
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As to systemic or institutional racism, there is some suggestion that the police who investigated the matter tailored their method of taking statements from witnesses, by using leading questions and such, to create a paper trail that supported a conclusion of self defense by Zimmerman. Time will tell.
As to the prosecutorial discrtion in terms of charging Zimmerman, or not, I have commented frequently on this board about how prosecutors tend to view interesting, stretch-the-law convictions as badges of honor. In general, prosecutors seem to operate on a “conviction at any cost” mentality, and they enjoy the challenge of obtaining a conviction that requires imagination to stretch the applicable law.
Even under Florida’s overbroad “stand your ground” law, a zealous prosecutor could argue that the law is inapplicable where the person who used the deadly force himself instigated the confrontation. In fact, that is precisely what another Florida prosecutor is arguing, as we speak, in the Trevor Dooley case. Mr. Dooley, who is black, was in fact charged with a crime where he shot a guy who arguably assaulted him.
Some of the facts in the Dooley case suggest that Mr. Dooley’s use of the “stand your ground” law is more apt than Zimmerman’s. Dooley was about to confront a kid for doing skateboard stunts on a tennis court (which of course the kid should not have been doing — in other words, Dooley was being responsible in confronting the kid) when a nearby man saw Dooley and physically assaulted him. The man was in his early 40’s; Dooley was about 70. In other words, the man could seriously have harmed Mr. Dooely, and Dooley did not in any way instigate conflict with the man. Dooley shot in defense and a zealous prosecutor charged Dooley with a crime.
Many have commented that had the roles been reversed in the Martin/Zimmerman matter, Trayvon would have been charged. That is of course speculation, but it is informed speculation, and it is supported by, among other things, the fact that in the Dooley case, Mr. Dooley was in fact charged.
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I would like to know why it is reported that George Zimmerman was a self-appointed neighborhood watch person? It doesn’t make any sense, and for example he is listed as a contact on the Retreat at Twin Lakes newsletter with Sanford police mentioned in the same paragraph?
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from the Newsletter:
We just held a meeting with the Sanford PD on 9.22.11 and learned many great tips for preventing crimein our community. In attendance on behalf of Sanford Police Department were: Community Volunteer Coordinator, Wendy Dorival, Sergant Herx and Ofcer Buchannon. Sergeant Herx and Ofcer Buchannonare both assigned to our neighborhood and announced increased patrol within our neighborhood. In addi-tion to the extra marked patrols, Sanford PD has initiated random bike patrols of both the front and back yards of our community and random unmarked vehicle patrols with increased patrolling during peak crimehours. Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee has pledged his support to our neighborhood and asked to attend thenext Neighborhood Watch community meeting!The Neighborhood Watch is looking for additional members to participate and become a block cap-tains. We are open to all residents. Meetings are held the third Tuesday of each month at 6:30PM inthe clubhouse, 30 minutes prior to the scheduled HOA Board meetings. Please keep your eyes open.If you see something suspicious or out of place, report it! You can make an anonymous call to theSanford PD Non-emergency # 407-688-5199 or 911 and help keep our community safe. Email us at:RTLNeighborhoodWatch@gmail.com for more information or call George Zimmerman at 407-435-2400.
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@ Dinosaur:
“The name is Zimmerman, and there is no proof that Martin was shoved at all.”
There are exactly two living people who who witnessed the initial moment of contact between Zimmerman and Martin: (a) Zimmerman himself, who faces possible prosecution for homicide and thus has strong incentive to lie (never mind his community college studies in law enforcement, which likely taught him at least enough to know what to say to avoid culpability here); and (b) Martin’s girlfriend, who has no dog in the hunt and who stated that Zimmerman shoved Trayvon while stating something like “what are you doing here?”.
By the way, “there IS other sites”? Have you successfully completed fourth grade?
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@Don
Until people *stop thinking like you*, racism will continue to live on. YOU are part of the problem. And I will never stop clanging that bell until I die, or the world wakes up.
__
do me a favor, look in mirror and repeat your words:)
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@vanishingpoint
Why not be direct? What is your meaning? Are you implying that I am racist? It is okay to accuse me if that is what you think, have some moxie.
If that is what you are suggesting, that I am racist, please let me know what the basis of your accusation is.
You may have not read, but my point has consistently been that the consideration of race needs to end. I am not considering race of who I respond to in my posts, but I am considering the statements of and responding to individuals directly. I am not presuming to know, and have not claimed to know the color of anybody’s skin on this board (and if you think otherwise I challenge you to find an example and quote me) and I don’t care because it doesn’t matter.
There are plenty here who have made assumptions about me, about what I can or can not know or appreciate, and have stated that their reasoning is based on what they think the color of my skin is. But the fact is, all of these people know nothing about me and are jumping to conclusions based on their own prejudice.
I am doing what I can to illuminate the wolves in sheep’s clothing, crying out “racism” while beating their own racist drum. What we are dealing with here is a sickness of the mind. Using the evil racist actions of one man to justify continued racism against an entire group of people, is the modern-day racism problem that prevents progress.
Any time the actions of one person is attributed to some group of people that are somehow guilty as a group for the action of one, it is stereotyping. When that stereotype is defined by a skin color or a perceived “race”, it is Racism.
Over and over and over on in these comments, the repeated phrase is “white people” this and “white people” that. Gross criticisms and assumptions made about individuals based on their race. This is full-fledged racism as much as if all the comments were “black people” (as apparently you’ll find on the Fox news article comments), “hispanic people”, “german people”, “jews”. As well as sexism which is also a major problem…
By the way, if you think that the height of racism lives in the USA, you couldn’t be more wrong. Get to know and talk to all kinds of people from all over the world. The most deeply rooted and society-corrupting racism is not found in today’s USA, but other parts of the world, where racism and sexism is rampant and largely ignored.
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@Don
The color of skin has nothing to do with mental consciousness so I think you are misreading what is being said an awful lot here. When I read your condescending preachy comments here, I feel that much is going over your head and you sound so foolish I almost want to crack up in laughter or else crack up and cry, it’s a toss up.
I don’t always agree with every little thing I read here and yes, I have said so, and sometimes I have sounded foolish too, I guess that is part of the unlearning of racism.
I think you might want to learn something here or why else would you be so sincerely asking questions and attempting to participate. The preaching from high is not working, try a different approach, for example, spend some time just reading all the posts here, there is a wealth of information and links. Mediate on all you have read for a while, and at the same time, keep your eye on current events such as this tragedy we are discussing.
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@Don
You’re trying way too hard with the blacks on this site. They have no interest in being fair with you or talking fairly about “racism”. They just want to rip on white people on anything that they may have done over the past 400 years, while completely ignoring any wrongs they may have committed, or any of the good things white people have done.
Take a look at some of Abagond’s posts, especially the ones about white people. Nothing but rips.
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Interesting links:
http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/criminal/article1206308.ece
http://djanddanielle.com/trevor-dooley
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@poetess
Bliff is operating on the belief that white men are more moral and believable than blacks, and that we should submit and be subservient to the almighty white man. No, not true. I operate under my finding that blacks are less intelligent, more implusive, and plan less for the future than whites. Note that none of this says anything about morality. Any black may be more or less moral than any white. And where did I say anything about being “subservient to the almighty white man” ?
I am finding out from this blog that blacks are wholey unfair when discussing racism. They will make outlandish statements to any white person here about their supposed racism, while taking no responsibility for any black behavior. This makes blacks look helpless and dependent on the white man.
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@vanishingpoint
I agree the color of skin has nothing to do with mental consciousness. If you think I am misreading what is being said an awful lot, please help me to understand the meaning of what has been said.
Abagond –
“These white commenters live like in an alternate universe.”
sepultura13 –
“White people in Florida have some serious mental issues”
truthbetold –
“because it’s a glaring reminder of how happy whites are when [black people] die.”
TheFireBrand –
“when violence is done on bodies of color well white people dont care”
“When Whites get off their hubris hobby horse and own their Whiteness”
Nana –
“This is what happens when your mind is ‘high’ on whiteness.”
Matari –
” Reading the FOX commentaries on macklyons regarding Trayvon:
…
..confirms what a plethora of whites think and say: backstage, behind keyboards, and closed doors.”
“Whites cannot begin to fathom:”
Herneith –
“What don’t whites do or say that qualifies them as cowards?”
All due respect vanishingpoint, but if you don’t see this, things are going over your head, not mine. These individuals are making racist comments. I don’t know what race they are, or what the color of their skin is, because it doesn’t matter. These individuals have issues with prejudice warping their ability to remain rational, think clearly, and reach reasonable conclusions. But nobody is responsible for the racism of these individuals other than themselves.
If all these people happen to be Hispanic, that does not mean Hispanics are racist. If all these people happen to be Japanese that does not mean all Japanese or Asian people are racists.
The problem these individuals have, due to their prejudice, is that they can’t fathom that separation of individual responsibility.
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@Bliff
You are among the worst perpetrators here.
Just the fact that you would use a phrase like “the blacks” shows that you have the same problem that I’m railing against here.
Yes some people are not “Being fair”, but I don’t expect fairness all the time. Life isn’t fair. I do try to be as fair myself as I can be.
Your comments are as racist as anybody else’s. “I am finding out from this that blacks are wholy unfair”. There aren’t even 100 individual people here involved in this discussion and you’re going to make broad conclusions about “blacks” based on just a couple of people?
You are the kind of problem person that I’m talking about.
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@Don
Thanks for the reply. I know you are trying to be fair with everyone. However, as you continue on this blog, you will find out how true my statements are.
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@Don,
I don’t see those comments as racist, because the reference to white people is about the mental consciousness that treats black and brown people as inferior, invisible nothings with no rights in a country that prides itself on greatness.
If GZ had killed a 17 year old white kid, I have no doubt that GZ would be in jail. If Mitrice Richardson had been a white woman, you probably would have heard about her. If Oscar Grant had been a young white guy on St. Patricks day in NYC, he would have been just be another reveler, free to go home to his family. This list could go on and on, and I still don’t think you would listen, because the white ppl inside you is asleep to it. Wake up!
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@vanishingpoint
“The reference to white people”.
That is the problem. What is really going on, is the mental consciousness of some individuals is causing them to treat black and brown people as inferior and invisible.
The problem lies with the individual people, and is not caused by or due to the color of their skin.
The comments I quoted are racist, because those comments attribute the poor qualities of those individuals to a whole group of people based on skin color and/or race.
Is this whole situation being mishandled because racism exists in the minds of some individuals? In my opinion that is very likely.
Is this mishandling proof that whites are racist? Absolutely not, that is a false and unjust association and anybody who really thinks it’s true, is thinking through the lens of racial prejudice.
I am not here denying that racism exists or that injustice is done due to racism, I am here saying that those with prejudice (group 1) are using this event in an attempt to promote continued racism. And on top of that, even more people (group 2) are trying to use group 1’s hypocritical racist tendencies so that they themselves, as group 2, can also promote continued racism. It’s a snowball effect caused by the prejudice that is prevalent in the minds of both parties.
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Abagond:
Let’s not turn this tragedy into “Florida Bashing” just for the hell of it. Unarmed black males are killed all over this country by rogue cops and citizens. Real Talk…the main reason this case has been highlighted above other cases, is because, it fits the narrative of the media. Also, it’s an election year. Every presidential election year, the liberal media cherrypicks stories that have a racial component involved…illegal-immigrant, victimized muslim, victimized black male, etc. It allows democrats to stir up the pot so to speak, they have no shame. All of the blackwomen who have been killed, kidnapped, and raped, no media firestorm. All of the blackmen that have been killed by other black males, cops, and citizens with suspect motives, no media firestorm. I’m not saying that Treyvon Martin’s tragic death doesn’t warrant the media coverage that it’s getting, but, we can’t be hoodwinked into believing the media really gives a damn’ when they don’t, that’s all i’m saying sistas and brothas. Too many of us are leaving this planet way too soon because of whomever and whatever, this is the larger issue that we need to focus on as a race…Bottomline!!!
Tyrone
MindScape
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@dave
But when a sick white criminal makes a black person his victim it seems like black people take it more personally than white people do in a similar situation.
I urge YOU to stop taking all these comments on board personally. I think you get upset Dave when you see in the posts of others ‘white this, white that’. You ought to be able to detach yourself from this by now and recognise and either accept or reject what the commenters throw out there.
Your posts suggests more than a superficial depth of compassion for what has happened, I suspect that as a parent this has probably contributed to it? You as an individual understand that a crime, and a terrible tragedy has taken place here, something which should never have happened. From your other posts I sense you are also aware at times, the disporportionate way in which it seems crime is reported in the U.S and the impact of this i.e. numerous reportings on Black crime, minimal coverage of White crime, the way this then manifests in the minds of people causing fear, outrage and in some cases, terror!
The fall out from this is then demonstrated on this blog where we get the views from a diverse microcosm of society, for example by some of the posters on here -those who KNOW a crime has been committed but are scared to concede as much, lest it weaken their arguments that BP are pre-disposed to violence. Its like their armour, their protection so that when they meet a BP they will harken back to this to enable them to ‘justify’ their behaviours. Other commenters, i.e. Tyrone have been vocal about black crime too and the need to take responsibility for this.
We ALL need to stop.
I would also like to add that people need to have respect and decency too. In the most disgusting examples of disrespect on this and associated threads, ‘race’ and linking this to crime statistics has become the rationale for the most negative of comments.
I do wonder at you sometimes dave, you are one of the people who seems to be most affected by what is said on here and yet, you come back for more. You must be a glutton for punishment Dave, either that or some of what is said on here resonates with you more than a little 🙂
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You are right, Tyrone.
I like hearing your opinion on this. The media can cause less about Trayvon’s death, I know this because I have watched the news on it way too many times to know. They act like they care but I can see right in the Caucasian newreporter’s face an tell that they don’t care.
In America and worldwide, White is right. Black lives don’t mean anything to people because Blacks are supposedly inferior.
I hope George Zimmerman gets jail time and if Trayvon was White, this would get media coverage everywhere and everyone would be outraged because his White mother would be like, ”Why would anyone do this to my Billy or Cody or Chase”, whatever names Whites give to their children. George Zimmerman would be in jail and he would be dubbed a criminal. but Trayvon was Black and George could go free because he shot a Black boy and Black boys are considered violent and criminals.
I heard on the news that there is a march planned for Trayvon Martin. That is good. This story hit close to home because I am one year younger than him and I am 16 and I have a little brother who is 13. Whenever my mother sees Trayvon, she sees Greg, my little brother. So this story really hit home for me and my family.
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How disingenuous – you selectively cut a sentence short and take it out of context, for the sole purpose of derailing a thread that is strictly about the murder of an innocent, unarmed person and people’s thoughts about it and reactions to it.
This is why you’re seen as a troll – by me, at least. I don’t presume to speak for others.
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Abagond
Why did you delete my comment?
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My bad. I see it now.
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@Demerera,
I urge YOU to stop taking all these comments on board personally. I think you get upset Dave when you see in the posts of others ‘white this, white that’. You ought to be able to detach yourself from this by now and recognise and either accept or reject what the commenters throw out there.
That’s the issue with many whites, especially Dave. Whenever we talk about white racism and white supremacy, they think we’re talking about them personally and get upset.
Then again, that alone says a lot.
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Don,
Some – not all – of the people here subscribe to this definition: racism = racial prejudice PLUS institutional/systemic power. This is pretty much saying that only people who are white can be racist.
Re: The comments I made which you quoted:
” Reading the FOX commentaries on macklyons regarding Trayvon:
…
..confirms what a plethora of whites think and say: backstage, behind keyboards, and closed doors.”
“Whites cannot begin to fathom:”
Even under the common definition of racism that you’re using, I’m failing to see the racist component(s).
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@sepultura
Are you kidding me? The whole thing is worse!! Here is the whole thing.
—–
“White people in Florida have some serious mental issues – speaking with a few in person has taught me all I need to know about that backwater swamp.
The state flag is telling:
http://www.50states.com/flag/flflag.htm
A concealed confederate ‘stars and bars’ is still a confederate flag, but in a way, it shows the status of racism in the USA: concealed. Hidden. Swept under the rug. “Ignore it and it never happened!”
The events in this travesty, and the comments about it, reveal all.”
—–
“speaking with a few in person has taught me all i need to know”
Another prime example of unjust stereotyping of a group of millions based on “a few” that cultivated prejudice and ultimately racism against “white people”.
Why don’t you repost your comment in it’s entirety and this time replace white people with another race of people and let’s see how racist it isn’t.
Frankly, your flag commentary is just ludicrous. You are seeing what you want to see in the flag, just as you are seeing what you want to see in “white people” after speaking with “a few”.
You are just like Bliff. Your prejudice precludes your ability to reach reasonable conclusions. By all means consider me a troll. As you have shown that your considerations are empty and not worth the bits they’re posted with, I will value them accordingly.
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@ Tyrone:
“Real Talk…the main reason this case has been highlighted above other cases, is because, it fits the narrative of the media. Also, it’s an election year.”
I don’t think that’s the reason. The media here is reporting this reactively, because it is blowing up in the social media. More and more these days we’re seeing that — social media driving news.
The reason it’s huge in the social media is because the facts are unusual. Though certain individual details may not be unusual (i.e. – a senseless death of a young black man by gunfire), the totality of the matter — a civilian man confronting and killing an innocent teenager solely for the “crime” of walking in a public place — and the results — a teenager leaves home to go to a nearby convenience store for candy and is shot dead by a stranger on his way home — are heart wrenching and thus compelling to huge numbers of people, especially parents of teenage boys.
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Sepultura13
“How disingenuous – you selectively cut a sentence short and take it out of context, for the sole purpose of derailing a thread that is strictly about the murder of an innocent, unarmed person and people’s thoughts about it and reactions to it.”
– Thank you!
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@ Matari:
😀
Casually observing as the derailing continues…
* smirk *
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@brothawolf
That’s the issue with many whites, especially Dave. Whenever we talk about white racism and white supremacy, they think we’re talking about them personally and get upset.
Maybe i’m wrong but I always get the sense of inner conflict and frustration with dave and whilst those traits may apply to some of the trolls who comment on here too, there is more of a transparency to dave which makes him come across as more honest.
Poor dave, he probably thinks i’m obsessed with him – honestly, i’m not 😉
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@Don
You are just like Bliff. Your prejudice precludes your ability to reach reasonable conclusions. By all means consider me a troll. As you have shown that your considerations are empty and not worth the bits they’re posted with, I will value them accordingly.
___
Talking to yourself again?
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@Matari
That definition is one of convenience for those who adhere to it.
The full quote.
—-
** Reading the FOX commentaries on macklyons regarding Trayvon:
– confirms the permanence of racism.
– confirms what a plethora of whites think and say: backstage, behind keyboards, and closed doors. The very same whites who make decisions about who/how gets shown/portrayed in the media, gets hired, fired, a loan, access to an apartment, entry to a campus – or prison.
– reaffirms why I don’t really consider myself an American even though my lineage can be traced back for several generations in the US.
Whites cannot begin to fathom:
– the unnecessary damage done to us via whiteness
– the debilitating effects of persistent racism upon our psyche
– the tremendous unpaid debt they owe our fore-bearers and us, their survivors, the descendants of those who were stolen from Africa who are still oppressed, mistreated and marginalized in a very racist system.
—
You have a handful of individuals, that you are pretty sure are white. You don’t know that they’re white. But you are willing, without solid evidence, to hold millions of “white” people accountable for these individuals regardless.
You suggest that “whites” make all the decisions, who gets loans, and who has jobs. Well, my president isn’t white. My boss isn’t white. My real estate agent wasn’t white. Most of my co-workers aren’t white and even less of my superiors are white. 4/5 of the members of my HOA aren’t white. This isn’t 1950.
Damage is never, has never, and never can be done by “whiteness”. That sentence makes no sense. “White” exists in your mind, it is not a real corporeal entity that can cause good or harm. Individuals are real, “white” and “black” are only manifestations of the mind for the prejudice.
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@vanishingpoint
No, that comment was for sepultura.
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@ Don
Reading you comments here prompts me to ask a honest question.
Don, what do you want from us?
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Great news: the New York Times just reported that the police chief of Sanford is stepping aside!!!! Hopefully that means they are starting to get it.
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@truthbetold
What I want from everybody, is for everybody to recognize and treat everybody else as individuals. Give an individual praise and credit when they deserve it, and damn an individual for their evil actions when they deserve it.
Our society has lost the concept of individual responsibility, and it’s hurting us (us is everybody) in more ways than just perpetuating racial prejudice.
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Don
Perhaps you mean well. Perhaps you really and truly from the bottom of your heart want these things. But, living in this world, this country, with America’s past and the continuation of hate, your ideas are naive and unrealistic.
If you were a black man, you would never make such comments. You would understand, viscerally, that the things you say come across as living in a dream world.
Don, whites created the beast. Now the beast has run amok.
Enjoy your safari.
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@truthbetold
Thanks for affording me the benefit of the doubt, I appreciate it.
How long will we continue to refuse to change our way of thinking by calling it naive?
We’re really just afraid the next guy won’t change his way of thinking, so we think we’re protecting ourselves by reciprocating.
What we end up with though are the divides that play out right here right now.
I’m not looking for some movement that’s going to sweep the planet in a week. I’m looking for small steps with individuals we actually interact with, and choosing not to project their good or bad attributes upon huge demographics of people. It’s a choice.
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@Abagond that is good news, even if it is only temporary
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How does anyone read Don’s comments without gagging on their own lunch? I almost hurled my breakfast and lunch just reading his posts. He keeps coming here trying to police Black people’s thoughts ,feelings, and opinions. Pacifying, and creepily, paternalistic and shamelessly unrealistic. Basically it all boils down to “You’re the racist for bringing racism up”. Stop trying to tell people of color how to combat racism- you will not be listened to. Instead of trying to Calm The Negroes down you should try actually combating the White Racist System, you know, attack the perpetrators, not the victims. But I guess Colorblind Racism doesn’t work that way. Does Black anger scare you that much ,even righteous Black anger, that you have to repeat the same tired lines Blacks have already heard from people like you in this thread several times?
You know what, Don? I wish I was treated like an individual too, but since we live in a willfully racist, ignorant society- I am seen in a monolith -assumed to be based x or y based on the color of my skin. Boo-hoo, that White folks are being blamed for racism. Good! Blame blame blame. That’s where the blame starts! We are naming where the disease came from, and you are having your feelings hurt over Whites being held accountable for the racist crud they do is nothing compared to constant racial oppression. Racism is hurting US, not you.
It still baffles me how Whites can chime in the same opinions and act like it’s brand new or profound thinking, and still act like they are authority on something they will never experience on any level whatsoever. It would be hilarious if it wasn’t so arrogant,oppressive,and White.
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are people like you not sick of using that redundant phrase ‘the race card’? look, i heard the part of the tape where the police told him that they did not require zimmerman to go up to martin.
he was looking for a fight. he took a life. he should be locked up. how moronic do you have to be to not see that?
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i made a mistake reading some of the comments here. this place really does resemble a black version of stromfront sometimes.
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@ Don
The choice must be made by the ones who created it.
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I guess the Sanford police department ain’t no CSI:Miami.
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@ Fran Cheska
Rasicm hurts us and them.
WE bear the burden of proving we are not monolithic.
THEY bear the burden of shame (inner) , refusal (outer) and denial, which starts the cycle all over again.
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@Fran Cheska
I am not writing to “black people”. I am writing to some individuals, just as I am writing to you individually now.
I am not trying to police “black people’s thoughts”, and actually it’s rather sad that you think of the opinions of some individuals as the thoughts of “black people”, rather than respecting them as individuals owning their own thoughts regardless of their race or the color of their skin.
My feelings are not hurt as I do not take racist comments, targeted at any race, personally or seriously. They do not apply to me. My point is and always has been that they do not really apply to anybody.
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@truthbetold
We all need to live together, work together, and choose together. If we want to talk about realistic, the burden of a better future can not realistically be placed on the shoulders of one demographic.
Is it fair? No it’s not. Why should one group who suffers share a burden with another who did not? Well because there is no other way for a better future. If there was a “fair” way I’d be all for it, but there isn’t.
One wrong does not justify another. Reciprocating wrongs will never lead to resolution.
An individual may be feel justified in reciprocating wrongs, but our children inherit the environment that we create, and they have no choice about it. Follow through to conclusion and personal vendettas are ultimately selfish and irresponsible to our children.
Perhaps it is too late for us, but it is not too late for our children and grandchildren unless we can’t get over ourselves, and insist on securing their suffering.
By all means, call a spade a spade. If somebody is racist, they deserve to be labeled so. But all black people do not deserve to be labeled as anything, just because one or some black men are something, just as all white people do not deserve to be labeled as anything, just because one or some white men are something.
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A black person’s life has no more value than that of a dog.
I would correct this. To some whites, a dog’s life is more valuable than a black man’s. See all the white people calling for the death of Michael Vick, despite the fact that Vick did 2 1/2 years in prison and is working with animals rights groups to this day to compensate for dog-fighting.
How many whites are calling for police officers and wannabe be cops who shoot black men to be punished, or worse, be killed?
I have this “skit” I am trying to put together about the Klan members in the police force, since that’s where the Klan went–into the force. They never left.
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@abagond:
“Great news: the New York Times just reported that the police chief of Sanford is stepping aside!!!! Hopefully that means they are starting to get it.”
Way to Go! Too much pressure I guess. Perhaps people do have some power still if they would only used it more often. Unity is power and people can unite and have that power. To fight the racism, to fight the social unjustice etc.
Lets hope they can not swipe this one under the rug or that some political hypocrite does not hijack the cause again for his own purposes.
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This whole case makes me sad. Forget skin color for a moment and just think of the situation. An adult killed an unarmed child without ANY consequences. This child’s body lay in a morgue for 3 days and his cell phone was with the body. The parents of the child call around and finally a policeman show up with a photograph of the dead child with blood coming out of his mouth. The parents find out their child was shot and his killer is free three days after his death. What kind of human can justify this? What if this was your child, your brother, your nephew, your friend? How can just justify it then?
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[…] By now, I’m sure we’ve all heard about the shooting of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin by a neighborhood watchmen who has yet to be arrested. It is important that people understand that this was not a just killing, this was not-self defense. It is not-self defense when you have an unarmed young man vs. an armed grown man who outweighs him by nearly 100 pounds. If you listen to the 911 tapes, it’s heart-wrenching to hear the cries of help go silent after the gun shot. Some have said that it was Zimmeran yelling for help, but Trayvon’s mother has stated that it was her son’s voice. You can read more about the 911 tapes HERE. […]
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“My feelings are not hurt as I do not take racist comments, targeted at any race, personally or seriously. They do not apply to me. My point is and always has been that they do not really apply to anybody.”
Well that sums it up for me. This one is dead, people. Call the morgue.
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@Cleonette.
Wow, bad wording on my part there isn’t it.
I did not mean that I take no racist comments seriously.
I mean that I do not take racist comments that are directed at me seriously.
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Is that my imagination or is that a mugshot of Zimmerman? If he has been charged before, why was allowed to carry a gun?
Zimmerman was being charged Battery on a Law Enforcement officer, and Resisting Officer with Violence in 2005.
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/03/22/trayvon-martin-police-chief-says-his-role-in-case-a-distraction-temporarily-stepping-down/
Wow! just Wow! Mind boggling!
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@Mel Well SOME Dog owners white or black can be weird and value the lives of their dogs more than their own kids.
Let alone strangers or another race of strangers. Your comment is too broad to be taken seriously.
As far as Michael Vick goes I live in Philly and you would be surprised how quickly a few Eagles wins will go in helping people to forget.
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@ Cleonette
Wow. This just gets worse and worse. It certainly fits what I said about the Sanford police, that they must think: “A black person’s life has no more value than that of a dog.”
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@ Dave,
Not really. I’ve seen all manner of death threats and racial epithets thrown at Micheal Vick for the dog situation. The same people step up and defend police brutality and civilians deciding to murder black kids for wearing hoodies. It seems ridiculous that the life of a black teenager is valued less than someone’s pets. I
love my dogs. They’re my babies. I raised them since they were little puppies, three of them. I would be devastated if they were killed. Bear with me:
My oldest Yorkie, Max, was attacked by two large rottweilers. He was attacked while walking peacefully on a leash with my younger sister. He did nothing to be approached, but those two dogs ran after him and tried to tear him apart. He defended himself and snapped at the dogs. The owner of those dogs ran up and maced my 3 lb yorkie puppy and let their dogs run rampant and chase him all the way back to our house. He made no effort to stop the dogs, or keep them on leashes. If it weren’t for the bar-b-q we were having he would have been killed, fortunately he was able to slip into the house. My father confronted the owner, and he had the nerve to blame my little yorkie for that attack, and then play the victim and say he was given unfair treatment for being chewed for it.
Where am I going with this?:
Many of the same people who were angry about that story I just told you thought it was okay that the same treatment be applied to a person of color. Why is it wrong for a grown man to mace a 3 lb yorkie, but a 200lb full grown adult man can shoot an unarmed black teenager and be excused?
Many of those same people thought that it was wrong that the owner tried to deflect his shoddy treatment of the situation through playing the victim. The same people thought it was okay that the police treated Trayvon as the criminal and then claimed that they were being unfairly labeled as “racist”.
People also thought it was bull that the owner claimed to be minding his own business when my yorkie came up and attacked his dogs. They thought it was ridiculous that he claimed that a young woman walking a tiny dog threatened him and his two large dogs. Claiming “self-defense” seemed wrong because everyone knew that his territorial dogs (and he himself) had attacked our yorkie, and you don’t deserve to be attacked for walking in a neighborhood. The same people thought that Trayvon’s attack might have been justified because he was being “suspicious” by walking in Zimmerman’s neighborhood.
It begs the question: Why is it that people would be angered by someone walking up and hurting a dog, but do not expect people to be outraged over the murder of a young black teenager?
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I meant to say @ Dave, and Cleonette…
I apologize for that.
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“What I want from everybody, is for everybody to recognize and treat everybody else as individuals. Give an individual praise and credit when they deserve it, and damn an individual for their evil actions when they deserve it.”
*****************************************
That’s excellent. I would suggest that you take this to the people that most resemble you. I’m assuming that’s white folks. They’re the ones who need to hear what you’re saying. They started, continued and benefit from this mess, and they can end it, if they choose to. Blacks and other people of color can’t end something we don’t and never have owned.
In the meantime, I suggest you read and endeavor to understand this:
The Role of White People in Ending Racism
Racism is contrary to the fundamental nature of every human being. All human beings begin life caring deeply about all other human beings. Until we ourselves are hurt – put down, ignored, threatened, beaten, criticized, isolated, and so on – each of us wants all people to be treated well. None of us, including white people, would ever participate in the racist mistreatment or oppression of other humans unless we had first been hurt. However, once hurt, we are vulnerable to hurting others – by participating in oppressive systems and acting oppressively as individuals.
In an oppressive society, few people escape being hurt in ways that leave us feeling scared and bad about ourselves. It is when we are scared or when we feel bad about ourselves that we are most vulnerable to believing racist messages.
In a racist society there is a constant barrage of racist messages and practices – from family, friends, acquaintances, schools, the media, and many other institutions. No one can grow up in such an environment and escape its effects. In this way the society installs racism on every white person. It does so regardless of how strongly or for how long we actively resist.
White People Act as Agents of Racism
As a result of these hurts, all white people have been conditioned to accept the lies of racism and to carry racist feelings. Some white people stop questioning these feelings and act out these “beliefs” in hateful and oppressive ways. Other white people intellectually reject the content of racist messages and try to treat people targeted by racism respectfully and as equals. But even when those of us who are white act with goodwill toward people targeted by racism or actively engage in fighting racism, attitudes connected with racism (unjustified fears, the seeking of approval, feelings of superiority, etc.) surface from time to time and must be battled in order for us to act consistently according to our best thinking.
We white people are pulled to act on the basis of the racism we’ve heard and seen, acting sometimes subtly and unawarely and other times overtly and harshly.
Racism Hurts White People
Racism greatly damages the lives of people targeted by it. Racism also hurts those of us who are white. (This is true of any group that acts out oppression at another group.) This is far from the damage inflicted on the targets of racism, but it corrupts our humanity and compounds the ways we already feel bad about ourselves. Not standing up against racism erodes our integrity and undermines our sense of goodness and self-worth.
White people become separated from the majority of the world’s people, know little about them, and miss close involvement in the lives of a rich variety of people. Racism also erodes relationships between white people – we do not want to be associated with “that white racist” or “that white liberal.” Racism leaves us feeling hopeless about actually eliminating racism and creating a just and equitable society.
White People Ending Racism and Healing from the Hurts of White Racism
United to End Racism and Re-evaluation Counseling have valuable experience and tools for white people to use in ending racism. We have learned that any and all “oppressor roles” (the role played by a person who has been conditioned to be an agent of oppression) are installed by hurting people very deeply. White people’s oppressive behavior arises from deep emotional damage. Sustained emotional work is therefore required for those of us who are white people to free ourselves from racism. To create a just society, white people must not only inform ourselves fully about racism and take action to end it, but must also heal from the damage caused by being exposed to racism and by having participated in it.
United to End Racism has found that white people taking turns listening to each other in pairs and in groups is an effective way to do this emotional work. Those of us who are white need to remember and to tell our stories about the racism in our lives and assist one another to release the intense feelings that underlie these stories. These stories can include early experiences with racism, the racist lies we were told, the times we acted out racism, and the racist attitudes that were held by the people around us, as well as the successes we’ve had in fighting racism.
To do this work, we white people need settings in which we can be open about racism without being blamed or shamed, where we know we are cared about and respected. Under these conditions, we can remember and tell what happened to us with regard to racism and release the painful emotions from these experiences. And we need to learn to do this work with one another as white people. It is the job of white people, not people targeted by racism, to do the work to both stop white people from perpetuating racism and to help white people heal the damage we carry.
With emotional release, white people are able to think afresh about these experiences. We become partners with people targeted by racism in their efforts to heal from having lived in a racist society. We begin taking effective steps to end racism along with freeing ourselves of the effects of racism, all of which improves our lives in countless ways.
White People as Allies to People Targeted by Racism
An important part of ending racism and all other oppressions is to develop alliances between those targeted by the oppression and those outside the targeted group. Eliminating racism requires the development of strong alliances among groups of people targeted by racism and also with white people who are committed to ending racism. These white allies are people who have decided to work for the liberation of all people targeted by racism. We, white people in this ally role, demonstrate by our actions and words that we support the goals and visions of groups targeted by racism and work alongside them. In United to End Racism, we have learned a great deal about building these alliances and about white people becoming effective allies.
Steps Toward Becoming White Allies
There are many ways for white people to work as allies in eliminating racism. Some of these include:
Taking visible stands against all forms of racism by both backing anti-racism organizations led by people targeted by racism as well as standing independently as a white person against racism;
Working on and eliminating our own racism and healing the places we have been silent and passive about racism;
Standing against one of the effects of racism by reminding targeted people of their goodness, intelligence, competence, and the importance of their relationships with one another;
Actively seeking correct information and healing from the ways we have been unaware and uninformed;
Building long-term friendships with people targeted by racism and challenging the racist messages of separation, difference, and fear;
Training and building groups of white allies committed to eliminating racism by assisting other whites to heal the damage done to us by racism;
Understanding that being allies to people targeted by racism is for our own benefit since it involves reclaiming our full humanity and having a world right for everyone, a world where everyone matters.
For more information about white people healing the damage done by racism, see the pamphlet Working Together to End Racism, a publication of United to End Racism.
Copyright © 2001-2010 The International Re-evaluation Counseling Communities.
All rights reserved.
United to End Racism
A Project of the International Re-evaluation Counseling Communities
719 Second Avenue North
Seattle, Washington 98109
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Objective reality: a teenage boy, ambling back home after buying his little brother a pack of Skittles, taking his time so he could enjoy an uninterrupted phone call with his girlfriend out of earshot of his father and brother.
Zimmerman reality (as quoted from his 911 call): “There’s a real suspicious guy … looks like he’s up to no good, or he’s on drugs or something … he’s got his hand in his waistband, and he’s a black male … something’s wrong with him, yup, he’s got something in his hands, I don’t know what it is … fucking coons.
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@Matari
Thanks for sharing. I almost completely agree with your post and everything you shared from United to End Racism. I agree 100% in what I believe is the spirit and intent of your post.
Really the only piece on which I disagree, and it’s not a disagreement with you, is that the causes of prejudice given in the first two paragraphs quoted from United to End Racism applies to all people, not just white people.
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@ Ace
Great story. Oddly familiar. Go, Max!
@ Fran Cheska
I got the same impression too.
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@ Abagond,
Thanks, isn’t it? I didn’t even think about it until I had a discussion about Trayvon Martin with some friends who I’d told Max’s story to years ago. Imagine my horror when I slowly began to realize that they would have felt more outraged for Trayvon if he’d been a dog. Go Max, indeed! He’s 12 years old, he thinks he’s the “big dog” now.
@ Blanc,
I’ve got one more:
Police Reality: A unidentified male-black was found casing the neighborhood by a good Samaritan. Unfortunately he had to be put down for the safety of the community. The good Samaritan was released.
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Abagond,
Since some of the white American posters are pushing the idea that people shouldn’t be mad at the Police (or the fact that Zimmerman is white) because he is “half-Hispanic”, I decided to read a few Spanish-language newspapers to see what’s being said in the Hispanic/Latino community.
I found it amusing that in some of the Mexican articles talking about the march, they managed to photograph mostly white (gringo) protestors…leave it to the Mexicans to put a white face on it.
In the papers in my area, most people (Hispanic / Latinos) are upset that Zimmerman hasn’t been arrested for killing a child, they could care less that he is ethnic Hispanic…actually, many people referred to him as the “Spanish Jew” or the “fat boy”, and of course, there is a lot of “I hope he’s not Cuban” or “only the gringos or communist defend this child-killer”
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Why would anybody defend the police or trust it is beyond me. Then again, I know I’m biased because I was raised not to trust them.
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@Mira:
I understand where you’re coming from. Before my mom passed away, she told me that she grew up in a third world country and the police there tended to be corrupt. When she immigrated to Canada, she learned Canadians, make that white Canadians, viewed the police with admiration and respect. My mom still had a difficult time trusting them.
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@Linda
From what I understand Zimmerman is ethnically half white and half latino. If that is correct, that makes him exactly the same amount of “white” as President Obama.
Actually caring what his ethnicity is, is still 100% silly.
As far as defending the police, I don’t get it either. The police completely botched this. At least the chief stepped aside, but ironically the fact that he did willfully step aside means he’s conscious that there is a problem, but has now stepped out of power to do something about it. Now we don’t know who will step in and how conscious they will be.
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“When she immigrated to Canada, she learned Canadians, make that white Canadians, viewed the police with admiration and respect. My mom still had a difficult time trusting them.”
Ofcourse I respect the police, as they’re doing a job that can potentially lead to death while needing to worry about the safety of their own families and their own life.
They’re putting their own lives on the line to protect mine, I have nothing but respect for those brave men and women. This is no different when it comes to the military aswell (even If I might not approve how they’re being used currently).
Anyone of any country does this. You think that French citizen and his Japanese wife saw the Japanese police with respect when they surrounded him, knocked him to the ground and arrested him while dragging her away? I’m sure most of the Japanese sat there with the same attitude most Whites have in Canada.
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[…] “Trayvon Martin: The 911 Tapes” by Abagond […]
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fake news story.
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The topic of the race of George Zimmerman, that horrible killer is interesting. My mother just told me that he was half Hispanic. I was like, who cares. I don’t care about race really. My mother doesn’t like Hispanic people especially if they are Puerto Rican. She thinks that they are very racist and prejudice against Black people. She experienced so much racism from them it is unreal and she doesn’t want me bringing home a Hispanic guy home ever and she told me that the Cubans in Miami shoot and kill the Black guys off there.
Honestly I don’t care about his race but that doesn’t mean that he isn’t a fat criminal! Race doesn’t matter but character does!
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@Adeen Danica Mckenzie
Amen about Zimmerman.
I grew up in Orlando and heard the same things.
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As a Latino American, I think i’d rather that white people stop trying to associate him with us, he was the fat son of a greedy old white man, and his sell out chingada Peruvian wife. From what I read he was raised as a white boy, and lived in one of those nutty gated communities, he might have a brown face, but this guy is white in all the important ways. This coward, wannabe cop, gordo needs to go to jail, see how Hispanic he feels then.
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I think this is another faked news story too. Everyone involved are actors just like the Casey Anthony story.
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@Lil Tejo
I sure wouldn’t want to be associated with a murderer like him either and I am Black.
And if Trayvon was Hispanic, he still would have been shot dead as well.
”This coward, wannabe cop, gordo needs to go to jail, see how Hispanic he feels then.” You are right on that, Lil Tejo.
@Shondis
You are definitely right. If Zimmerman goes free, this would be like the Casey Anthony trial. Only this time man will go free for killing an innocent Black boy
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The term Hispanic was created by the Nixon and his buddies.
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Amen lil tejo!
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I rather doubt Mr. Martin would appreciate knowing his death is just being leveraged by bigots like Tejo to spew racist filth.
Disrespect in its fullest.
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Zimmerman will not be indicted.
1. Trayvon approached him first
2. No evidence that the 5′ 2″, morbidly obese, Zimmerman, chased down the 6′ 3″ svelte black athlete.
3. Eyewitness has Trayvon on top of Zimmerman pummeling his face as Zimmerman cries for help. The two women witnesses have Zimmerman on top of a face-down Trayvon – already shot obviously.
4. Trayvon’s father initially denied it was his son’s voice yelling for help.
5. Following is not justification for being assaulted.
6. Zimmerman had a bloody nose and head – and wet grass on back.
Zimmerman was dumb for following (thought he could locate suspicious character for cops) but acted in self-defense.
Race riots to ensue shortly after Zimmerman walks.
The media is doing all they can to work the black community into a frenzy. They are leaving out all details that help Zimmerman; all evidence of Trayvon’s history that could show him as anything but an angel (they even use a picture of him that is at least 5 years old) – why was he suspended for 2 weeks?
Why did he run from a fat guy in a parked car? Saw he was on phone to cops possibly? None of that matters – no evidence means no case.
Where is your case?
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@brahms:
“Where is your case?”
At the morgue. One dead teenager. That is our case. What is yours?
1. Zipperhead went after kid with a gun.
2. You can here it in the 911 call tape. Fat obese guy went after the kid.
3. 140lbs teenager vs 280 lbs grown up.
4. Both parents say it is their son on the tape. Nobody says it is Zibbedeedo.
5. Nor is walking back home with candy.
6. Trayvon had a bullet hole in him. He was lying on the wet grass dead.
Zimmerdimmer was dumb to chase a teenager and shoot him dead.
There will be riots if he walks but they won’t be just “race riots”. They will be riots against unjustice and racist justice system and cops.
Media doesn’t have to do anything. Murder by Zibbedydo did it already.
Why media shiould help murderer? And why you leave out that mr Zingaling was arrested 2005 for being violent against the police?
I don’t know why the kid was suspended but he was not arrested for bodily harming police officer in 2005 like mr Zoopertrooper.
He ran from a fat white guy who was following him at night, like any old pedophile rapist or child molester or killer – which the fat white guy was actually.
He just saw a white fat guy following him at night with a gun in his hand. You would too.
There is the evidence. The fat man murdered a child. The white grown man murdered a black teenager.
That is our case.
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What we’re witnessing here first hand is a microcosm of IMPLICIT BIAS, and it’s cousin, MISREMEMBERING of FACTS in matters of race, a regular and frequent phenomenon employed throughout Amerikkka’s racist legal system.
There’s a real possibility that Zippoman could be acquitted, assuming he’s arrested, because trolls, like the ones seen here are quite likely to wind up on the jury, or behind the judge’s bench.
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Brahms brought up Trayvon’s school suspension but not Zimmerman’s arrest in 2005. Lovely.
Maybe he works for the Sanford police: they looked up Trayvon’s police record, not that of the killer, Zimmerman, and gave Trayvon’s dead body a drug test but not Zimmerman.
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@abagond: so basically Sandford police did not do what they are supposed to do under the law: investigate any death (natural or not) and suspects, or as in this case, the actual killer. How convinient.
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the truth about faked news stories came to light when one of the tigerwoods mistresses was shown to be a reality tv star. do some research online about “faked news stories” u will be shocked at what u see and read. there are even pics and videos of the same actors playing different charactors in different news stories with different hair and makeup. if u research hard enough, im sure this zimmerman person/pic has been used b4 too. u are being tricked. wake up.
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Right! i posted on the other trayon post that the 911 call is the same white male voice that is used in all the other fake news stories. But becca this is not a good site to post about fake new stories. Go to “godlikeproductions.com”.
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Zimmerman’s good friend defended him on a Sunday news program this morning – looks to be black. Uh oh.
Again, where is your case? Shooting a teenager in self-defense is not a crime, no matter if the shooter is 93, so enough of the emotional stuff – stick to facts.
Following is not a justification for assault – maybe in the hood but not under the law. We do not yet know who attacked whom. We do know who was getting pummelled. We do not know that Zimmerman had his gun drawn. I see no case from the evidence thus far. We do know that the 5′ 2″ morbidly obese man did not chase and catch the 6′ 3″ athlete.
5′ 2″, 240 – that’s a bowling ball.
This will not be your new millennium James Byrd.
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Abagond – you’re smart enough to know that there is no case here. I guess you just can’t help it.
“they looked up Trayvon’s police record, not that of the killer, Zimmerman, and gave Trayvon’s dead body a drug test but not Zimmerman.”
They looked up Zimmerman’s as well – he was never convicted.
They always drug test at autopsy.
Next
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Brahms,
You are a piece of work.
a. Zimmerman had prior assault charges, but they were not looked up at first. The only record they looked at was Trayvons.
b. James Byrd? “Hood”? Really? Maybe if people like you didn’t throw out racist crock to explain situations like this people wouldn’t be able to make a comparison.
c. “black friends” don’t make anyone less racist. You should know that. It’s racism 101.
d. They left him in a morgue for 3 days while not even bothering to hold Zimmerman. Explain that.
Next.
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@brahms:
“We do know that the 5′ 2″ morbidly obese man did not chase and catch the 6′ 3″ athlete.
5′ 2″, 240 – that’s a bowling ball.”
We heard it on the 911 tape. You can here it too if you have ears. Obese man chased the kid. And where that 6,3 came from? One of you guys said that he was 6.2! Try to get it right, boys! Anyway 6,3 and 140lbs. That is a stick.
As for the weight: friend of mine is 5,10 and weighs around 300 lbs. He bench presses 410 lbs, squats 505 lbs and deadlifts 550lbs. There is no way 140 lbs kid would whup his ass.
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Reading these comments with an utter lack of empathy for the Martin family makes me wonder; if it was my brother or dad or husband who had gotten murdered, would everyone look at his picture, “thuggify” him and say it’s all his fault?
White America is a disease. And with that disease comes many malignant tumors scattered across the mind and body. White supremacy is ultimately the cause and effect of the ills of society. Denial spreads the disease and apathy makes it recurrent.
What whites fail to realize is their own racism will be the cause of their demise, the destruction of their precious society, the obliteration of their families.
The system of oppression involving blacks and people of colour will be realized when whites have no other choice but to join in the fight, or perish.
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@truthbetold
White America is a disease…..White supremacy is ultimately the cause and effect of the ills of society….What whites fail to realize is their own racism will be the cause of their demise, the destruction of their precious society, the obliteration of their families.
Wow!! I don’t know what you are doing right now, but your mind is out in orbit near Pluto. You sure come up with some wacko, funky stuff. Must be a black thing.
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@ Bliff,
I love that you fail to pay attention to the first part of truthbetold’s post. Cherry picking and ad hominems? Must be a “white thing”.
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@truthtobetold:
It is on its last legs already. Guys like doug, bliff etc. are the last hurrahs, the last echos of the heydays of the Great White American Male. Those days are in the past.
What we see are the last spams of the dying culture, the racist white America. It has been eroded by blacks, asians and latinos already. There is no more a place or state or profession which is only for whites. There are black millionaires by dozen. Black generals. Latino generals. Politicians. Police chiefs. Sherifs. Mayors. Pizza kings. Oscar winners. No where to run, baby, nowhere to hide anymore for the Great White American Male.
Just like USSR the fasade is still up, people still behave like they really believe in it, rasicm is still played out on propaganda, tv and papers and movies, but slowly it is rotting from with in. Its foundations have been melting away. Next 50 years will take it even further from reality and when that divide between the reality and propaganda comes too much – puff. Just like USSR. People just say No thanks, and that will be it. It could topple fast too, in two weeks, just like USSR eventually. They might try the same, military coup, but people are gone already. No more soldiers for dying idea, ideology. Just back your bags and go home boys, it is over.
Bliff, dougie and these guys know it. They see it everyday. More and more ethnic mixing, mixed neighborhoods, mixed schools, mixed food, mixed music on their radios. They are surrounded. They are in the corner. Ship is sinking and there is room on life boats only next to the blacks, asians, latinos. Not a single boat is “For whites only”.
The big white hot Sun of racism is setting slowly. No more it is over everybodys head scorching us all. It is going down on the horizon. No matter how much these guys are screaming, hollering, pretending, it will go down and the days of Whites Only are over. There will be a new dawn and that is what these guys are so scared. The New Dawn won’t be like yesterday and they know it deep down inside.
Sorry about the preaching again.
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@truthbetold
You’re being ridiculous.
@Bliff
Yeah truthbetold is being ridiculous but he is one person. If you have a problem with him keep it with him. “Must be a black thing” is just as ridiculous and uncalled for.
What if I started slapping your grandmother around if you keyed my car? Any normal person would have a serious problem with that because it’s unjust and uncalled for. How about we trying being reasonable for a change?
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Exactly what part of my statements is ridiculous?
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Several things but I’ll be concise with one that is probably the cause of the others.
“White supremacy is ultimately the cause and effect of the ills of society.”
That statement said in seriousness, is so incredibly ridiculous, I don’t even know where to start.
It’s hard to explain why without just come across as personally insulting and unfair, but here is my best shot. That sentence simply is not true, and if it is a foundation of other opinions of yours, as it appears to be, those opinions are built on a false foundation.
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@ Sam,
True!
@ Don,
How is it not true? Name one good thing that came out of white supremacy? Why would you find someone saying “white supremacy is the cause and effect of the ills of society” insulting?
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@Ace
I’m going to answer a little out of order.
Not a single good thing has come from white supremacy.
I did not find the statement insulting, I found the statement ridiculous. 🙂
Why it isn’t true: To say that all of society’s problems exist because of one specific flavor of radical racism? Let me just pick one problem in society. How about teen pregnancy. If it weren’t for white supremacy there would be no teen pregnancy? No of course there would be, white supremacy is not the cause of teen pregnancy, that’s silly.
Racism causes and has caused a lot of problems in society. In the U.S., white supremacy has been the most prevalent and relevant. But *all* society’s problems? Lol.
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@ Don,
I agree, not one single good thing.
There are a lot of problems in the world and plenty have other causes. However, I wouldn’t go so far to call it “ridiculous”. There is at some truth to it, right? For many people, white supremacy has caused a lot of societal ills or at least contributed to them. It’s hardly radical, it’s permeated enough that even a basic activity can be utterly tainted with it. That’s probably why there’s a temptation to say that white supremacy causes most if not all of the ills in this society. I
I think we all can assume they weren’t saying “every single problem is caused by white surpremacy”, more than they were saying that “white supremacy has poisoned our society and has caused people to be unable to view people of other races as human enough for even the most basic dignity or sympathy.”.
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@ Don
The fact that you, the individual, finds my statement insulting, validates my claim.
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@ Sam
Preach on!!!
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I have not read much about some simple facts, and can easily used by
prosecution.
Forget for a second whether or not he is black or white. Zimmerman claimed
he was worried, thought he might be reaching for something in his belt.
Zimmerman was in his SUV. Using this line of thought/defense- the first thing
to do is stay in your car, and…..go to your house and make sure your wife
and kids were ok… I would ask him, that if he felt this kid was a threat, why
did he get out of his car instead of getting home to protect his family?
More importantly- get out of the car??? In the tape he says “these asxhls
always get away with it”. Self defense is not a motive- revenge is a motive
for past robberies, and he became Judge Jury Executioner- which is illegal.
Take road rage for example. Somebody cuts you off, and you have a chip on your shoulder, and scream at the guy. The guy acts “suspicious”, like he is on
“drugs or something”. You follow him and then you think he has a gun.
The sensible thing to do is, while you are on the phone w/police to give a description of the car…and stay as far away from it as possible. But..no..
you have a chip on you shoulder, you are sick of people driving like crap.
You chase the jerk down and at a stop light get into an altercation and
shoot the guy. It turns out that the guy had a phone, not a gun.
Black, white, whatever- YOU WOULD BE ARRESTED.
Where does racism come in? The Police. It is stunning that the police
just let him go, without looking further into the case. They have the right to detain someone fore at least a few hours. It is a mixed neighborhood-
did the kid live there? Finger prints show no priors on the dead kid.
The disturbing 911 call from the neighbor sounds like a teen screaming
because the voice breaks like an adolescent. Listen to it. The kid was unarmed. The man should be considered a suspect at this point. Fingerprinted. This would show a prior for assault on a police officer.
At this point any witnesses should be questioned at length. Is it true that
the father lived in the same gated community? Why didn’t the police
check into that. One may ask why the father did not go out looking for him.
Think a bit…. there is a basket ball game going on- probably a few other guys watching- I’m sure a few beers. Would you want to get in your car after having a few beers???? No, so he called 911 and hospitals from what I understand.
And it still took like at least 24 hrs to ID the “John Doe” kid????
That’s right- because he was just another “n..egro” kid. Why bother.
One more we don’t have to worry about- right? That is the best case
scenario for the racist department. Worse case? Does it not seem odd
that it turns out the kid had a can of ice T and Skittles- nothing else. His tox screen came back negative- Witness “Zimmerman was pacing back and forth
with hand on forehead- looking like ‘omg what have I done..I screwed up'”.
Something stinks here- it may be worse than it looks. He must have some connection beyond “neighborhood watch-man” with the Police. The cops were
covering something up- that is worse case- and is sounding more and more
like a scandal. By the way- I’m white for those white boys that think I’m another
you know what “revising history”…
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@Ace
white supremacy has poisoned our society The only thing is your mind and the mind of the other Black Racists on this site. You are drunk with delusions of white supremacy.
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@ Ace
Tell Spliff that you are not a Black racist.
You’re a race realist.
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Don said of my statements:
“…those opinions are built on a false foundation.”
Don, do you live in the Unites States?
Who makes the laws?
Give me a real, truthful, non-biased example of how my statements are built on a fallacy.
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@truthbetold
Again, I don’t find it insulting. 🙂 I find it ridiculous.
@Ace
1st Paragraph, I agree with you 100%.
2nd Paragraph, I would like to assume truthbetold didn’t mean what he said literally, and that it was an exaggeration, but I get the impression that he is a straight forward person who means what he says and says what he means. If he didn’t mean it literally, okay, but then why say something that inflammatory? I’m not going to take it personally but we all know that others will. Those kinds of inflammatory remarks are what I’ve been speaking out against since the beginning of my involvement in the conversation. That sort of thing just continues to tear at wounds and aggravate the problem. Look at the way truthbetold and Bliff are whipping each other up, they’re probably now both more resolved in their disdain for the other’s race than before. As tragic as Trayvon’s killing is, I really think the fallout of back and forth inflammatory bullshit does more harm to racial divides than the killing itself.
White supremacy has absolutely poisoned the minds of some white people in the exact manner that you describe, and all the nasty words you can think of to describe it are justified. Any racial supremacy does the same thing. Racial supremacy exists outside of the USA and it is not an affliction of only white people. We have a worldwide epidemic afflicting a lot of people across a lot of cultures.
By all means, hate white supremacy. But white supremacy is not a synonym for white people. Read truthbetold’s posts again, he’s transferring his hatred for white supremacy to white people in general. Blame transference is a mental slippery-slope. The same mind poisoning is at work, and therefore it’s not wholly unreasonable to think he’s being literal and serious about another blame transference statement that’s so ridiculous.
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@truthbetold
It is very simple. If I take you for your word, you believe that all of society’s ills have their roots in white supremacy. That means you don’t see a problem that exists that you don’t blame on white supremacy. That is your foundation for all grievances.
That is not true, and the example I have already given is teen pregnancy. There are millions more but one is enough.
Therefore, all of your grievances are based what is not true.
The foundation needs to be corrected, and that will ultimately have implications on all the other positions that stand upon it.
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@truthbetold
Sorry about the other questions.
Yes I live in the U.S.
The law question is a little bit too simple. Which laws are you interested in? Federal, State, or local? Are you interested in actual laws that are on the books, or case law?
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It seems to me that fixating on this one possibly justifiable homicide, and ignoring the scores of people of Martin’s age and appearance who commit murder and are murdered every week in cities across the US, bespeaks a profound ignorance or lack of intelligence.
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@ bliff,
You’ve exposed my evil plot to destroy white people with empathy and logic! I’m impressed that you managed to do that while only responding to one particular part of my post!
Your right. I’m so sorry. I must be a black racist, because I don’t agree with you. Anyone who doesn’t see black people as a throng of irredeemable creatures unworthy of even basic respect or consideration must be a black racist. I suppose black people here are just so racist because they’re not holding your hand and catering to your racist viewpoints of them. I should have realized that, by seeing black people as people, and not demonizing a murdered teen, I am being a black racist. Maybe everyone should be a black racist, we’d have smarter people.
You know, I believe all people are people worthy of respect, dignity, and basic empathy. I recognize achievements as individual, not something to use to evaluate entire races by or to ride the coattails of. I hold people accountable for their actions and refuse to let someone’s racial pedigree determine how they are treated. I refuse to let out dated information that was doubted even in the era it was concocted be my basis on how I see the world. THAT is realism. By those standards, I am merely a race realist. I don’t know where people like you hijacked the term “realism” from, but I want it back.
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@ Don
Perhaps it’s my imagination but why do most of Abagond’s white readers immediately interpret any criticism of whites in society as ” ALL” of them?
I know very well, Don, that problems exist everywhere.
I am quite learned despite being black. Much to your chagrin.
My statements said that white supremacy is the cause and effect of society’s ills. Living in a society that indoctrinates EVERYONE into a belief of white superiority is damaging, dangerous and mentally debilitating. I truly hope I don’t need to explain that to a grown man.
Whites built this society to suit them.
Now, slowly, it has turned against them.
Martin’s case is the 600lb elephant in the room. We all know it. Blacks and a few whites acknowledge it. Most whites turn the blind eye, much to their eventual demise. Open your eyes and look at this case.
Ask yourself if this was a blonde, blue-eyed white boy, would this even be happening?
Answer honestly.
The world is watching.
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@ FG,
Another “black crime” statistic? What does that have to do with why Trayvon was shot? Was he committing a crime when Zimmerman saw him? No.
Concern troll here? You don’t tell black people what to care about, and you aren’t the judge on whether or not they care about black-on-black crime.
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“Another “black crime” statistic? What does that have to do with why Trayvon was shot? Was he committing a crime when Zimmerman saw him? No.”
To be realistic, it probably has alot to do with why Zimmerman followed Martin and generally why “racial profiling” is widespread. If one particular demographic (i.e. black males in their late teens/early 20s) is known to have a sky-high violent crime rate, police and citizens are going to weigh the probabilities and be more wary of persons belonging to that group, whether or not the individuals in question are actually criminals (which often cannot be ascertained immediately). If you want fewer incidents like this, the only real solution is to reduce the crime rate.
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@Don That is not true, and the example I have already given is teen pregnancy. There are millions more but one is enough.
_________
Ah, defending White Supremacy are we?
Don, let’s think about the effect of White Supremacy on teen pregnancy:
If a white teen becomes pregnant, it is viewed as a mistake with solutions, termination, adoption or keeping the baby. When a black teen becomes pregnant, White Supremacy views her as a baby mama -welfare queen trying to get more money from the taxpayers.
One teen is allowed to make a mistake, one teen has been made to be inferior and evil.
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But they aren’t known to have that. They are assumed to have that due to blanket statements and poor information. Men commit more rapes than women do, according to many feminist sites, but you don’t see those men being stopped, searched, and attacked for that. You can’t justify a murder by overgeneralizing. Why not go after boys who wear hoodies, or just boys in general? They commit more crimes right? But you wouldn’t see people saying “That white boy wouldn’t be dead if so many boys didn’t commit crime.”
Eventually white people have to accept that and stop using it as a get out of jail free card. If Zimmerman didn’t think in a racist way ,he wouldn’t have profiled Trayvon, followed him, and Trayvon wouldn’t have ended up dead. That’s the ultimate truth of the matter.
And honestly, using the same viewpoint that caused Zimmerman to want to attack Trayvon is nothing but insensitive.
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@vanishingpoin
What you describe is the way racial prejudice twists perception so that the prejudice can’t perceive things clearly or truthfully. It can magnify this problem but it is not the cause of the pregnancy.
If you think I am defending white supremacy you may be experiencing this perception warping first hand. 😉
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@Don,
Sounds like you are defending white supremacy to me.
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@vanishingpoint
Ace wrote:
“For many people, white supremacy has caused a lot of societal ills or at least contributed to them. It’s hardly radical, it’s permeated enough that even a basic activity can be utterly tainted with it.”
I responded:
“White supremacy has absolutely poisoned the minds of some white people in the exact manner that you describe, and all the nasty words you can think of to describe it are justified.”
I’d be interested to know how you interpret that as defending white supremacy.
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Lol. So the post that I just quoted myself from is apparently awaiting moderation, probably because I spelled out “B.S.”, so I don’t know if anybody else can see it yet. That may make things understandably confusing. Sorry.
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The sob story of the innocent black teen is unraveling before your eyes – care to look?
“At the time, Martin was suspended from high school after he was found to be in possession of an empty marijuana baggie, according to the Sentinel. Martin’s school has a “zero-tolerance” drug policy, the newspaper added.
The Orlando Sentinel is reporting that police sources say Martin was the aggressor on Feb. 26, knocking Zimmerman to the ground with a single punch and then climbing on top of the 28-year-old neighborhood watch captain and slamming the back of his head into the ground. Police say this account, given by Zimmerman, is supported by eyewitnesses, according to the Sentinel’s report.
Zimmerman told police he had lost sight of Martin and was heading back to his car when the youth suddenly stepped into his path. According to the Sentinel, Martin asked Zimmerman if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no and reached for his cellphone. Martin then said something like, “Well, you do now” and punched him, according to the Sentinel’s sources.”
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-trayvon-martin-case-20120326,0,4845076.story
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Its all over – Martin approached Zimmerman and punched him in the face.
Let the NBA know.
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Oh well then, case fucking closed, right?!? /sarcasm/
I wonder, which ‘police source’ is GZ’s in-law?
*SMDH*
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@Brahms:
Where have you been Brahms, on vacation? I missed your cynical deadpan delivery! How you doing Brahms? Still hate ni^^ers?
Zimmerman’s good friend defended him on a Sunday news program this morning – looks to be black. Uh oh.
There are a lot of self-loathing negroes out there Brahms. This so-called ‘black’ friend sounds like one of them. Don’t believe everything you read Brahms! Beware, beware! Being a racist libertarian you should realize that!
Wow!! I don’t know what you are doing right now, but your mind is out in orbit near Pluto.
At least her’s is out there. Yours is in Uranus!
You sure come up with some wacko, funky stuff.
As compared to you? You’re joking right?
Sorry about the preaching again.
Preach on Brother, preach on!
You’re being ridiculous.
As are you as you refer to Truthbetold as he. Why would you assume such, you sexist miscreant?
Exactly what part of my statements is ridiculous?
None of them are as you are not holding their hands and caterwauling ‘Kumbaya, nor are your kissing their buttocks. White folk hate it when negroes are openly rebellious!
is so incredibly ridiculous, I don’t even know where to start.
Don’t bother as we haven’t got all day!
Name one good thing that came out of white supremacy?
Fish and chips with a ton of gravy on the chips! How about poutine?
No of course there would be, white supremacy is not the cause of teen pregnancy, that’s silly.
You are right. Dropping your drawers is the cause of teen pregnancy. However, what has this to do with the Martin case? And why oh why are you derailing this thread with your nonsense?
The only thing is your mind and the mind of the other Black Racists on this site. You are drunk with delusions of white supremacy.
You are drunk with delusions of grandeur! My guts hurting from reading your exchanges!
It seems to me that fixating on this one possibly justifiable homicide, and ignoring the scores of people of Martin’s age and appearance who commit murder and are murdered every week in cities across the US, bespeaks a profound ignorance or lack of intelligence.
No it doesn’t. It bespeaks your ongoing love affair with kissing white buttocks! This post is about a particular case yet you and the white racists choose to veer off of this topic.
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Here are some basic facts :
Zimmerman had convicted Martin in his mind already.
Zimmerman was advised to stay in his truck and not follow Martin. He disreguarded this advice and exactly what the dispatcher was warning him about, backfired on him.
Zimmerman acording to Martin’s girlfreind from her phone call, said ” What are you doing here ?” He never identified himself as the neighborhood watch guy ( self appointed).
Zimmerman should absolutly be scrutinised in a court of law for this behaviour, wich caused the death of a young man.
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@truthbetold
If my interpretation of you meaning “all of them” is wrong, I’m sorry. Would you say that when Bliff writes “blacks” he really only means some of them? He’s never once said all blacks in this thread, so it requires interpretation. If you do a search on this page there is only 1 occurrence of the phrase “all blacks”, and you wrote that. I can tell you that I think he does mean all blacks, based on the context of his posts. In the same manner your posts do read like you mean all whites. Again, if I’m wrong in that interpretation, I’m sorry.
I have made no attempt to disqualify your education, and I’m glad that you are quite learned. If you think that notion bothers me, you are mistaken. I’m not sure why you think the existence of your education would be to my chagrin.
Sadly, if Treyvon were a blond, blue-eyed white boy, this whole incident would almost certainly be playing out differently. I’m not denying that racism still exists, and that it negatively impacts impartial justice. Our society still has a long way to go, but it has come a long way as well. Today, this event is getting attention and gaining traction, the police chief did step down. Something that would not have happened not that long ago.
What I look forward to is continued improvement, and if things are going to continue to improve we need to stop the racial prejudice and profiling on all fronts.
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@Herneith
“As are you as you refer to Truthbetold as he. Why would you assume such, you sexist miscreant?”
Actually that is very simple. Linguistically, “truthbetold” is a masculine name, as it ends in a strong consonant. It was an unconscious, honest mistake, without any malicious intent or connotations.
Why do you assume I must be sexist when I’m simply another human prone to make errors? I hope the air isn’t too thin for you up on that Ivory Tower.
“You are right. Dropping your drawers is the cause of teen pregnancy. However, what has this to do with the Martin case? And why oh why are you derailing this thread with your nonsense?”
The Martin case is receiving attention because of it’s racial implications. If there weren’t racial implications, none of us would be here. As I see it, the “rail” of this thread is pertaining to race. truthbetold wrote the racially charged statement; “White supremacy is ultimately the cause and effect of the ills of society.” I responded to and denied that statement and provided an example of why I believe it’s false, teen pregnancy. If you feel the conversation between truthbetold and I is off topic, by all means ignore us.
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@Don
Hey, Don!!! What do you think of the blacks on this blog now!! You see, I tried to tell you. They have no interest in being fair or listening to another point of view, especially not from some dumba$$ white person!! This entire blog, from Abagond on down, is just about trashing white people and everything they have to say. It’s all emotional. Don’t even try to reason. Herneith is Angry Black Woman No. 1. She lives to trash everything you have to say.
Sorry you had to find out the hard way.
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@ Don
The differences between blacks and whites in society are this:
Whites:
1. What race problem? Blacks have it better than ever.
2. I don’t know why they’re still complaining, Obama is president.
3. Other races have done it. Why can’t they?
Blacks:
1. I’m still waiting to be treated like an equal.
The bottom line is this.
Black males in this white supremacist society live in fear every day of their lives. Not of other blacks that may kill them, (yes, this is a problem that we openly acknowledge and discuss) but of white racist cops and Charles Bronson wannabes that hate and fear them.
Having a black son in this country means worrying about things that a white child will never have to worry about. Such as:
1. How to appear as ” meek and non-threatening” as possible. No easy feat since black skin will never change.
2. Never try to openly defy, challenge or stare at a white woman. That could lead to death.
3. Despite having your dignity taken away from you, answer all questions by cops with a soft, even, non-threatening voice. They may get scared and shoot you out of defensive measures.
4. If you are a small child and are lost or need help, try to find someone who looks like you, preferably an older woman and ask for help. White racist cops seem to believe that all blacks, even babies, have super-human strength and can endure 41 bullets without injury.
Imagine the immense stress of thinking all the time that you are viewed as an undefeatable, superhuman warrior. When a white woman sees you coming, she crosses the street. She clutches her bag. Cops trail you. Damned if you drive an Escalade. Now you’re a drug kingpin.
No wonder so many black males fall prey to the system.
It’s exhausting.
No excuses here for the men who DO NOT try but an explanation of why some just give up.
Don, as a white man, you can reason, rationalize and explain as logically as you can. But simply put, you don’t understand.
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@Herneith
Wow!! I don’t know what you are doing right now, but your mind is out in orbit near Pluto.
At least her’s is out there. Yours is in Uranus!
You would do exceptionally well if you attended the 6th grade right now, while at your peak.
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@ abagond
Why refer to us as “the blacks”?
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Lacrimate further, neophyte.
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@SomeGuy
You mean you don’t agree? Are you new here, or “one of them”?
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@truthbetold
You really believe that I can not understand.
I guess I can’t authoritatively say that without understanding on all sides there can be no recompense, but I’m pretty sure that’s the case.
If you are correct that I can not understand, and I am correct that without understanding there is no resolution, that combines for a pretty grim outlook.
I’ve been accused of being naive. Well if being naive is required not to share that grim outlook, color me naive then. I hope our children can be naive too.
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@ Bliff
I clean toilets around here. They get kind of dirty with all the poor “race realists” bathroom habits. Must be all the outhouses the hillbillies are used to.
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@Someguy
We are slobs. I be sure to really leave a mess if I know you’re coming after me to clean up.
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@ Don
Understanding should lie with the oppressor not the oppressed.
So should shame and repentance.
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@truthbetold
Through imperfection, and lots of it, the oppressors were oppressors.
If your requirement is that they should now transform and become perfect, so that they can achieve perfect understanding, recognize their shame perfectly, and ask for forgiveness in kind, your requirement will never be met.
There must be understanding on all sides, because while one side may be worse than another, nobody is perfect and nobody is perfectly guiltless.
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@ Don
You are naive.
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Pardon my language, but…
It seems pointless to expect these assholes to respect the dead when they are desperately trying to excuse and defend the murderer of a teen while making sure the victim is buried deeper than he deserves in their minds.
The fact is that they can’t stand hearing about us being angry about this case, or any other similar case. They are more worried that we are angry that this happened than they are about the family of the victim. That’s they they are blue in the face explaining their asses off as to why we’re wrong and they’re right.
These clowns already established the fact that they hate black people. That much is more than clear. And it’s also apparent that they can never allow dead black people to rest in peace. That’s too much for them to handle. They are not mature enough to handle such a task.
Their wet dream consists of a black-less world where there are nothing but white people frolicking around society, and possibly the world. To them the more blacks that are getting killed, the better.
In the end these white-minded people will constantly write what they believe in no matter how incorrect or morally corrupted it is. Like I said, they need us to fail, fall, and die to make themselves feel good. In a way they need us more than we need them. That’s why they come here with their usual racism.
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@ brothawolf
And you know what’s the best part, man?
These fools don’t realize that you can only use a scapegoat that has breath!Once you put it to the sword, you have no one else to blame, but yourself.
Furthermore, these low-born White bigots don’t seem to get the fact that THEY will become the new n****rs! Someone has to be on the bottom and it isn’t going to be the upper class Whites. The hierarchy will not dissolve with the destruction of Black people. A new one will be born in the ashes that will be much worse for White masses.
White people should praise Jebus that Black folks exist to stand in front of that whip to spare them the lash.
Say goodbye to White privilege! Ha!
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@brahms:
Are Fking kiddin me???? “Empty marijuana baggie”???? What the Fk is that?
Did he or did he not posess marjuana? No. He had an “empty marijuana baggie”!!!! The school has zero toleranze for drugs. Good for them but do they have zero tolerance for empty baggies too??
This is seriously getting weirder and weirder.
“Police sources”??? You mean the same guys who let the killer walk at the first place, distorted and destroyed evidence on the crime scene, bullied eye witnesses etc.?
Orlandio Sentinel must be a real rag. Most stupid BS red neck swap peoples “news media”. Even the most senile grand pa would spot that poop ten miles away. Not you, though, nor the Sentinel.
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@truthbetold
Only one of us can be naive.
If I am the naive one as you say, then reconciliation fundamentally impossible. Nobody can be blamed for what is not possible. If there is nobody to blame, all of your blaming is senseless.
If you are the naive one, reconciliation is possible when all sides choose to accept and forgive the human condition of unavoidable imperfection. When reconciliation is hindered because some choose *not* to accept and forgive the human condition of imperfection, those individuals can be identified by all sides, and held accountable by all sides. They do not need to impact society as a whole, any more than society chooses to allow their influence to have an impact.
I think it is more sensible to hold an individual accountable for being a racist, than to say they have no choice in the matter. As malleable as our minds can be, racial prejudice is a choice. If it is a choice, it can end.
If it is naive to think it is a choice, that means it is not a choice. If it is not a choice you can throw accountability out the window, and you need to stop blaming and complaining about situations that are nobody’s fault.
Sorry truthbetold, I am not the naive one.
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“Their wet dream consists of a black-less world where there are nothing but white people frolicking around society, and possibly the world. To them the more blacks that are getting killed, the better. ”
**************************************
But – if black people and other PoC were no longer in existence, on whom would they then turn their natural proclivities to corrupt, dominate, oppress, control and scapegoat?
Themselves??
Absolutely yes!
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Don
Why do you believe it’s contingent upon the VICTIMS of racism to forget and forgive those who are still practicing racism – systemic oppression, bigotry, hatred, mistreatment and so on against non-white people – in order to get (in your mind) the racists to stop being racist??
Said another way – what makes you think that if black people were silent about racism, racism would just cease to exist??
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Sam – the case is unraveling – sorry about that. This will not be your Emet Til. Yet, a sub-population of blacks will loot and riot nonetheless.
The kid had a bag that had some dope in it – you think they expelled him for just having a plastic bag?
Try to look at the facts – the police report and the eye-witnesses. I know that you think you know exactly what happened but that’s just your racism biasing your logic.
Yet, if you believe the papers and the police are both racist then I guess you’re left with rioting.
I do beleive that the behavior of the media, black spokemen, black celebrities, and black atheletes will do quite a bit to wake white people up though.
Can none of you see how the media is playing you? The media hates white people too.
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@ Brahms
M.ulti E.thnic D.estruction I.n A.merica.
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@Matari
You misunderstand me.
It is contingent upon everybody to stop racism. That means identifying the racist individuals, and holding them accountable individually.
Never, ever, ever forget. Never. Forgive? That depends on you. If you personally hold all white people accountable for the actions of some white people, than I ask you let the blanket blaming go, but I am not asking you to forgive the individual white racists that still exist.
Any given white person holds all black people accountable for the actions of some, they also need to let that unjust blanket blaming go. Fill in any color of your choosing.
I am not saying that through silence racism would cease to exist. What I am saying is that stopping the unjust placing of blame upon whole demographics due to the actions of some, will help bring racism to a halt.
It is in human nature to cast stereotypes, we are surrounded by stereotypes, but is not something that is out of our control. If an Orange person is dumped on and treated like crap by one or more Blue people, and they then stereotype all Blue people as crappy and mean, they will inevitably end up treating other Blue people like crap. So why was the Orange person dumped on in the first place? Well perhaps that first group of Blue people really were crappy and mean, or maybe they were previously beat up by a group of Orange people.
It’s a closed circuit loop of hate that snowballs.
The only way to break it, is to recognize individual responsibility, and place the responsibility square on the shoulders of the individual. Then the Orange and Blue people who are not part of the problem, can come together and become the solution.
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Brahms, marijuana has absolutly nothing to do with this case.
Zimmerman’s actions clearly need to be scrutinixed in a court of law.
its absolutly absurd to have a gun toting self appointed neighborhood watch person , who doesnt take good advice from dispatchers, running around making arbitrary judgements on people who are totaly innocent.
No matter what happened after he ignored the dispatchers advice, Zimmerman bears some responsibility for what happened and should be scrutinised in a court of law
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Br – yes, Zimmerman is an idiot but he acted in self-defense, that much is obvious.
Trayvon was not an alter boy.
http://incogman.net/03/2012/media-working-overtime-to-keep-whites-stupid/trayvon-martin-reality/
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More news – since you guys already know what happened, this won’t be very interesting. Seems Tryavon may have had violent tendencies – incredible.
“As Dan Linehan, a blogger at Wagist.com, pointed out, correspondence with Martin on Twitter before he died alludes to an incident with a bus driver. “Yu ain’t tell me you swung on a bus driver,” Martin’s cousin wrote to him on Feb. 21.
The same week, Martin was suspended for 10 days from Dr. Michael M. Krop Senior High School in North Miami-Dade. “He was not suspended for something dealing with violence or anything like that,” his father said. “It wasn’t a crime he committed, but he was in an unauthorized area [on school property],” declining to offer more details.
But a family spokesman told the Associated Press on Monday that Martin was suspended because marijuana residue was found in his book bag.”
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/orleans-police-officer-suspended-over-online-comments-trayvon-215328497.html;_ylt=Arvdt0LotwJ.vLXc63jzI__h7r5_;_ylu=X3oDMTFucThkdGVsBG1pdANCbG9nIEluZGV4IGZvciB1cHNob3QEcG9zAzEwBHNlYwNNZWRpYUJsb2dJbmRleFRlbXA-;_ylg=X3oDMTFvcGs0cnBnBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdANibG9nBHB0A3NlY3Rpb25zBHRlc3QD;_ylv=3
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wrong link I think
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/cutline/trayvon-martin-shooting-details-emerge-facebook-twitter-accounts-180103647.html
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Was Trayvon dealing drugs?
http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/was-trayvon-martin-a-drug-dealer
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Sorry , Brahms, these things dont have any relevance for me about feeling that Zimmerman should have his actions scrutinised in a court of law…
Martin cant defend what his mind was going through, and, even if he attacked Zimmerman ( it could easily be because he felt he was being stalked), i am saying Zimmerman’s actions have some responsibility in why things went down and it should be examined in a court of law…
America needs to examine this in a court of law, America needs this process and to be scrutinised as much as Zimmerman
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Brothawolf:
If the reality of the event turns out to be that Trayvon initiated the violent confrontation with Zimmerman, don’t you think that makes him less of a victim?
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@ Brahms
What is your agenda?
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@Randy
If the reality of the event turns out to be that Trayvon initiated the violent confrontation with Zimmerman, don’t you think that makes him less of a victim?
Hell no. That’s what I’m saying. You’re just trying to find ways to excuse or justify this murder. In the end Zimmerman CHOSE to follow Martin in the first place. If he hadn’t, maybe, just maybe Martin would still be alive today.
To you and mostly likely others Martin had it coming whether he was wearing a hoodie, got suspended from school, or threw the first punch, at the end of the day, you and other people are basically saying that Martin deserved to die.
In the end there are people trying so hard to make Martin less of a victim and make his murder seem reasonable. That’s part of the pathology of this society. Black people can never be victims in the eyes of some people because black people are less-human.
It all boils down to the fact that this society doesn’t give a fuck about the lives of black people one way or another. That’s no exaggeration by a long shot. If some people were to bother to listen instead of trying to talk to us how we should think and feel, you would know better. But no. That can not be allowed in their minds.
*SMH*
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@Brahms,
Invading the privacy of a deceased minor’s facebook and twitter is disgusting and only makes me think less of ppl who are smearing Trayvon in order to defend Zimmerman’s criminal activity.
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I’m sorry the website offended you but there’s an innocent man’s life on the line.
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I found some real racists.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/trayvon-martin/cracker-tshirt-759832
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I’m sorry the website offended you but there’s an innocent man’s life on the line.
While another innocent life that ended abruptly was not as significant, right?
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@Brahms,
Zimmerman will never be innocent, because he killed an unarmed minor who had committed no crime, those are the facts and even if he is found not-guilty, he will have to live with that truth, and yes, he will be charged because the police did not protect the rights of Trayvon Martin or his family by letting him walk away.
Even under justifiable homicide, the person who shoots and kills is still a defendant, it is not for the police to act as judge and jury and that is part of the outrage. And in any state, including Florida, justifiable homicide does not include a neighborhood watchman who could have waited for the police to investigate a non-threatening situation that turned lethal entirely due to the actions of Zimmerman.
George Zimmerman’s 911 call is my evidence, yours is just slander bearing no weight in a court of law.
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@Brahms
Incogman.net? wagist.com? Yahoo?
Your sources are crap. The most credible source you have is Yahoo, and that’s not saying much. I can’t even believe you’d post something from incogman.net and expect to be taken seriously.
What a joke.
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No, because Martin had every right to defend himself from an unknown person who was stalking him and likely looking for some kind of trouble (murderer/pedophile/mugger/etc.). Zimmerman is the one who made the decision to chase and confront Martin. Martin is the only one who is justified in fearing for his safety and “standing his ground” in self-defense.
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vanishing –
Trayvon did commit a crime – assault.
The police handcuffed Zimmerman and took him into custody for questioning. No they did not arrest him. Not everyone who fires his handgun in self-defense is arrested.
What specifically did the police do that was not up to standards?
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brothawolf:
Zimmerman’s following of Martin is not the cause of the shooting.
brothawolf:
I wouldn’t say “deserved to die”, but rather if you are beating someone in a state like Florida, the battered person has the legal right to use deadly force.
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Don- I noticed it was a bit racist after I posted but too late now. The same info can be found on multiple sites. Close the eyes and ears if you wish.
Trayvon punched Zimmerman in the face for asking “what are you doing here” – that’s assault.
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wanpimao:
Under what legal justification is someone who is approached by a stranger allowed to initiate a physical attack on them?
This is the fundamental flaw of the “Martin was defending himself” line of thinking.
He was certainly defending himself if Zimmerman initiated contact, but there’s no evidence to suggest that happened.
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Don – actually, the Sentinel tells us that it was Tryavon who approached Zimmerman and asked, “you gotta a problem”, to which Zimmerman responded “no”, to which Trayvon responded “you do know” and broke his nose. That is what the police are saying anyway but maybe Jesse and Al know better.
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Under what legal justification is someone who is approached by a stranger allowed to initiate a physical attack on them?
This is the fundamental flaw of the “Martin was defending himself” line of thinking.
He was certainly defending himself if Zimmerman initiated contact, but there’s no evidence to suggest that happened.
___
You are talking in circles Brahms, “approached by a stranger” is Zimmerman initiating contact.
Also, since you are now writing a script about what happened in your last comment, please extrapolate and explain to us why, out of the blue, for no reason at all, Trayvon would have approached and broke some stranger’s nose. Please explain that one to me, (eye roll)
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This is according to Zimmerman, as there are no other witnesses, therefore it must be fact. Is that what you wish me to believe?
And of course, we should expect that a man wishing to use a self-defense plea to protect himself from a murder charge would have no reason to fabricate his story.
You’ve also tailored your words. “Approached by a stranger” sounds so much more benign than “Stalked by a creeper in the middle of the night”, eh? This wasn’t a case of Zimmerman casually walking up to Martin and asking for a light. Martin was first stalked by vehicle, then on foot. He had a reason to fear for his safety, because he was being stalked and chased. He was not being “casually approached”.
Imagine the same scenario had Martin been a woman. If a woman walking in a neighborhood at night was first tailed by vehicle, and then after attempting to lose the vehicle, the man got out and chased her, would you still believe she has no reason to fear and then protect herself from a potential predator? If we can see reason behind the fear of a woman, then how is it we cannot see reason behind the fear for Martin? Because he is a young man? Because he is a young, black man? Somehow people believe that Martin, still a kid, has no reason to fear potential predators?
Ludicrous.
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@ brothawolf
My already diminishing opinion of American whites just vanished into thin air.
My friend from Nice says that this story is all over Europe.
The world is watching us and we are failing miserably.
Am I insane to have thought that this would bring an outcry of rage, pain and solidarity with ALL humans? The senseless murder of a young man, with his whole life ahead of him, would help America to face the demon in America’s closet. But the white mindset, being as fragile as glass cannot cope that “one of them” is a brutal racist murderer. I’d rather be black and suffer indignity than to be a privileged white and live with this disease.
I’m so tired now, it’s not even funny.
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vanishingpoint
“explain to us why, out of the blue, for no reason at all, Trayvon would have approached and broke some stranger’s nose. Please explain that one to me, (eye roll)”
Trayvon obviously was not shown enough respect – so he sucker punched the white man and broke his nose.
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wanpimao:
We’re closing in the crux of the debate, I think.
For the sake of discussion, let’s say that Martin was afraid of Zimmerman. Does that grant him the legal right to physically assault Zimmerman? Unless you say, “yes, absolutely” then Zimmerman may have been well within his rights to defend himself.
You see what is happening here as we actually attempt to examine the possible scenarios. Emotionalism evaporates and reason has an opportunity to reveal possible truths.
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wanpimao
Trayvon approached Zimmerman and asked – “you gotta a problem?”. Since there are no witnesses, that is reality. If that is reality then I see no real fear on the part of Trayvon. Trayvon could have run home, he did not; he turned and backtracked to Zimmerman.
I see no evidence for fear, I see the habitual behavior of a criminal – to run. but tha IS my opinion.
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truthbetold
The entire nation is on a witch hunt for George Zimmerman – what more could you ask for?
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@Randy
Zimmerman initiated confrontation (by stalking and then chasing Martin), and it was Martin who should be protected under the spirit of the Stand your Ground law. Zimmerman backed up his confrontation with deadly force. He brought a gun with the intention to use it.
Was it physical assault, or was it self-defense? Martin is the only one with reason to fear for his safety. If Zimmerman had a reason to fear, he should have stayed in his vehicle.
@Brahms
Can you even begin to comprehend the ridiculousness of that statement. You have just stated that if there are no witnesses, then any statement issued is now fact.
At this point I can only surmise that you are not here for reasoned debate, but instead to wind up people already affected by a gross tragedy. I refuse to engage with trolls, and will engage you no longer.
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@Brahms,Trayvon obviously was not shown enough respect – so he sucker punched the white man and broke his nose
___
Brahms, is that the best you can come up with? Seriously, it doesn’t work, try writing a better script….
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Would it make any difference if I showed that the attack happened about 5 – 10 feet from Zimmerma’s SUV? Would that put all this “chase, pursuit, follow” stuff to bed?
Watch the original video – look where it happened, look at the SUV.
http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation
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Zimmerman initiated confrontation (by stalking and then chasing Martin), and it was Martin who should be protected under the spirit of the Stand your Ground law. Zimmerman backed up his confrontation with deadly force. He brought a gun with the intention to use it.
Was it physical assault, or was it self-defense? Martin is the only one with reason to fear for his safety. If Zimmerman had a reason to fear, he should have stayed in his vehicle.
”
”
”
@ Wanpimao,
Amen! Co-signed.
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“In Mr. Zimmerman’s sequence of events to the police, he returned to his SUV after he was unable to find him. Mr. Martin then allegedly approached Mr. Zimmerman from behind and they exchanged words. Then, Mr. Zimmerman said, Mr. Martin hit him hard enough that he fell to the ground – which, if true, would explain what Mr. Zimmerman’s lawyer, Craig Sonner, has said was a broken nose – and began slamming his head into the sidewalk.”
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/shooter-claims-trayvon-martin-attacked-first/article2381271/
now look at where the atack happened, exactly where it should have according to Zimmerman’s account – come on people.
http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation
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Wanpimao and JT – please look at my above comment – no chase no staulk.
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You are delusional. I believe you’d say anything to let Zimmerman off the hook.
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wanpimao:
The relevant law section reads:
He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony;
In other words, a person claiming Stand Your Ground protection has to plausibly demonstrate that they HAD TO use force. Now maybe Zimmerman attacked Martin, and Martin felt he had to use force.
However, it’s also plausible to suggest that Martin used force without absolutely having to.
He was a 17 year old high school athlete engaging with a 28 year old who is 5’9″ and weighed 250 pounds. Technically, Zimmerman is “obese” and more than half-way to being “morbidly obese”.
When you suggest that Martin should be protected under the SYG law, you therefore have to claim that he had no choice but to punch Zimmerman multiple times, even climbing on top of him, out of fear for his life, and could not possibly have run away.
Is this what you’re claiming?
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Brahms,
Trayvon isn’t here to give his recollection of the events. And we have Zimmerman who was thought to be drunk.
Why would Trayvon feel it necessary to defend himself? Do you think he feared a belligerent, stalking, white man who he may have seen was armed and was accosting him?
Considering the history that Blacks have of being lynched by whites in the South (and North), do you think it might have been logical to assume that Zimmerman was going to kill him? Would it have been an act of self-defense for Trayvon to fight back before such an assault?
If he hadn’t felt accosted would he have responded physically to defend himself? We know Trayvon has no history of assaulting white people spontaneously. We do know Zimmerman was a patrol-loving, cop wannabe.
You have a dead teen. And you have a thought to be drunk, and power-minded Zimmerman.
I would put my money on Trayvon being murdered.
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Zimmrman’s BMI was 36.9 -above 35 is morbidly obese.
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JT – where are you getting the idea that Zimmerman was drunk?
This is so simple – Trayvon approached Zimmerman at his SUV, please stop claiming that Trayvon was stalked or chased – its ridiculous, is it not?
And if you are going to bring up historical justifications for Trayvons actions then I will do the same for Zimmerman and cite black crime statistics. This is not necessary though because the attack happened at Zimmermans car for god’s sake.
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@Randy
First, the SYG law is there so that we can defend ourselves without having to run away, as that was what we had to do with previous self-defense laws. So no, Trayvon would not have to demonstrate that he couldn’t possible run away, hence the title “Stand your Ground”.
Second, Trayvon is unfortunately no longer with us and is unable to demonstrate his need for self-defense, therefore we can only speculate what may have gone through his mind.
I demonstrated earlier what fear a woman might have if she were in the same situation. By your defense, you are stating that she has no right to attack in order to keep a possible predator from pursuing her further, possibly even finding out where she lives. If it is in fact a predator who is pursuing her then a felony (or some other such crime- is rape a felony in Fla?) is likely to occur, and based upon her fear for her safety, attacking to prevent that would be justifiable.
If it can be understandably justified in the case of a woman, how is it also not justified in the case of Martin? Could Martin have been attempting to protect his family as well as himself? (what if the predator found where he lived?). Is it because Martin is male that we don’t allow him this justified fear of a predator? Are men exempt from predators?
In the case of his being male, we do live in a society where men are taught (not just through other men, but through social customs and the media) that they are not allowed fear, and not supposed to run. So perhaps Martin not calling the cops was part of his social conditioning to face his fear and potential predator head on.
Any addition, Martin not calling the cops is likely part of his social conditioning not to depend on law enforcement. You may dispute this, but the history of law enforcement in the black community is far from exemplary. Just look at what happened after Martin’s death. It’s just another dead black kid, no sweat off the Sanford police’s neck. Why would they rush to help protect some scared black kid?
It’s one big ugly spiral of white supremacist ideology in our social conditioning which leads to a tragic ending for a young kid who should be home eating candy with his brother.
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wanpimao
Trayvon approached Zimmerman at his suv – this is where the fight occurred. So Tryavon was not very scared obviously. The afraid female analogy is also rendered moot. The evidence is overwhelming.
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@Randy
Zimmerman’s following of Martin is not the cause of the shooting.
Then what is and according to who or what?
I wouldn’t say “deserved to die”, but rather if you are beating someone in a state like Florida, the battered person has the legal right to use deadly force.
You wouldn’t say it out loud anyway, or you wouldn’t say it in front of black people. Is that what you’re saying?
And who says that Zimmerman was beaten up? Zimmerman and the police who took his statement, the SAME police department who dropped charges against Zimmerman in 2005 for resisting arrest and assault and battery of an officer?
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brothawolf
Your theory is that the police and Zimmerman are lying – oh boy.
The attack occurred at Zimmerman’s SUV – all chasing theories are out the window.
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@Brahms
Let me ask you a question, and please be honest.
Let’s make Zimmerman black and Trayvon, Hispanic-white. Other than that, let’s not change anything else. You know, Zimmerman calling the police, follow the kid, whom allegedly have been suspended from school, against police advisement, the teen allegedly starts a fight as you and your “friends” are trying to make us see. Zimmerman shoots and kills Trayvon, never gets charged and “runs away”. And in the mix of it all we learned that Zimmerman was once charged for assault and battery and resisting arrest, but had his charges wiped clean because of his “educational background in law”.
Would you still support Zimmerman in this case if he was black? Be honest.
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@Truthbetold
My already diminishing opinion of American whites just vanished into thin air.
My friend from Nice says that this story is all over Europe.
The world is watching us and we are failing miserably.
Am I insane to have thought that this would bring an outcry of rage, pain and solidarity with ALL humans? The senseless murder of a young man, with his whole life ahead of him, would help America to face the demon in America’s closet. But the white mindset, being as fragile as glass cannot cope that “one of them” is a brutal racist murderer. I’d rather be black and suffer indignity than to be a privileged white and live with this disease.
I’m so tired now, it’s not even funny.
You’re not insane at all. I would figure this would make many people from all backgrounds, especially the ones in this society, outraged. Sadly, as you can see with these trolls, they don’t care. These trolls are a reflection of a larger complex that doesn’t care about black people’s lives. It has been set in the stone of history, and there’s no way it can be ignored. Although some people prefer to ignore that and have us crying about the deaths of whites at the hands of blacks. Thus, making it seem that white lives are more precious than blacks no matter what. Of course certain people here will deny it up and down, but it’s the truth, a value they don’t care too much for.
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Brotherwold
Zimmerman did not run away, he was handcuffed and taken to the station.
If a white kid approached a black man at his SUV (after black man was looking for him), punched him in the nose and broke it, slammed his head into the concrete causing injury, and then got shot – black man should not be charged.
Why in the world would it make a difference anyway?
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Okay. Whatever, Brahms.
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brotherwald
Glad we’re clear. Now, since Trayvon approached Zimmerman at his car, I assume you’ve changed your tune on his guilt.
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Wait a minute, many people from all backgrounds *are* outraged. Understand that you’re going to find a disproportionately large population of trolls in the comment section of blogs and news articles, than you’ll find among the general populace. The overwhelmingly vast majority of citizens are not engaging in this much dialogue about the incident. Primarily only strongly opinionated people participate in venues like these.
Talking about the incident with people out in public, I have not found a single one that doesn’t think Zimmerman needs to go to trial. But people who think he is guiltless popped up quickly in here.
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@brahms:
“Your theory is that the police and Zimmerman are lying – oh boy.”
Ööh… its not theory. You can here it on the tapes. This guy follows the kid. He is told not to go after him once the kid takes off. What does your hero do? Right. He takes his gun and goes after the kid. YOU CAN HERE HIS HEAVY BREATHING ON THAT TAPE!!
You base all your arguments on what the guy said AFTER HE KILLED THE KID. It is he who says Trayvon came after him. It is him who says the kid attacked him. Now, tell me, why would this kid first run away, like it shows on the tapes, and then return to meet the guy he was running away from?
You claim that since there were no eyewitnesses it must be true and since the cops told that this guy told them this, it must be true. Ööhh…
@brahms:
“I know that you think you know exactly what happened but that’s just your racism biasing your logic.”
That is interesting indeed. And how I am racist against? The whites? You do know that I am white european, propably more “pure” white than you?
it just so happens that when a kid is murdered, I think the killer should be punished somehow. As in all murders. Including this one.
@brothawolf:
This is once again a revelation to all who thoughed that things changed after Obama. But do not despair. We are not in this just for us, but for the future generations. Brahms and guys like him are the last remamants of the old days. They are on the loosing side. How ever, they still do have the System behind them, pegging them on, but the days of the omnipotent System are numbered. The System knows it and that is why it may get even more dangerous. It has been said many times: it is always darkest just before dawn.
Perhaps I won’t see that day, but one day, sometime in near future, there won’t be anymore Trayvon Martins or George Zimmermans. This thing will be beaten. One day.
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Brahms, where do you get off trying to say Zimmerman didnt stalk Martin?
Look how he acts on the 911 tapes, he is nervous, he is sure that Martin is doing something wrong when he wasnt, he was following him and stalking him.
Just because at the moment he was walking back to his vehicle , Martin came up to him , doesnt negate that Zimmerman was stalking him.
I mean that is exactly why Martin confronted him, because he was being stalked. It turned out to be a fatal desician by Martin, but, Zimmermans actions should be scrutinised in a court of law.
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Why didnt Zimmerman identify himself ? Martins girlfreind heard on the phone that Zimmerman only answered Martin with a curt ” What are you doing here?”
With absolutly no identification from Zimmerman, Martin has every right to feel that someone is singling him out for no good reason
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@ Brahms,
We;re not clear. Neither is the media.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/crime/2012/03/sanford_fla_cops_new_leaked_account_of_trayvon_martin_s_killing_.html
Please don’t try and sell us your version of events when you weren’t even there. You try to flavor as the truth but you are as clueless as anyone else.
JT
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Guys
A new era is coming. One against the police. Remember you read it here first.
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wanpimao: You might be surprise to hear that you’re now advocating for my point that we really don’t know what happened. In other words, anyone who declares that Martin was murdered is demonstrably incorrect.
wanpimao:
I am not aware of any legal justification for a woman to physically attack a man who approaches her and asks “what are you doing here?” Perhaps you know of one and can share it.
wanpimao:
So what you’re saying is that even if Martin did initiate a physical confrontation with Zimmerman, it’s actually not criminal battery, but rather he is completely blameless because of social conditioning? I don’t think there’s any legal basis for exempting criminal behavior for that reason.
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BR
“Just because at the moment he was walking back to his vehicle , Martin came up to him , doesnt negate that Zimmerman was stalking him.”
The best you can get out of that thinking is that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman because T was mad that Z had followed him. In this scenario, Trayvon is guilty of assault – he was under no threat and acted out of anger.
Be reasonable.
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BR
“With absolutly no identification from Zimmerman, Martin has every right to feel that someone is singling him out for no good reason”
Martin can feel anyting he likes; what he cannot do is approach an unidentified person and assault that person because he is mad that the person WAS following him. It is not the law of Cabreeni Green that is relavent but U.S. state law.
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JT
“We;re not clear. Neither is the media.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/crime/2012/03/sanford_fla_cops_new_leaked_account_of_trayvon_martin_s_killing_.html
Please don’t try and sell us your version of events when you weren’t even there. You try to flavor as the truth but you are as clueless as anyone else.”
Why did you even link that story? A news outlet is calling for Zimmerman’s arrest – oh my god, you can’t be serious! The whole country is calling for that. The media is on a witch hunt – that’s what I’m saying.
They say the witness is unnamed – false. His name is John, he can be heard speaking on the original February broadcast on Fox News Orlando (and now on Anderson Cooper who cites the Fox News broadcast as breaking news – what a moron).
Your article cites the girlfriend’s account – that Trayvon was pushed. How can she distinguish an ear piece being pulled out vs it being knocked out? Its worthless. But if you want to cling to her interpretation, have at it.
Be a man – stand up for logic and truth and damn the rest of them.
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@Brahms
Please don’t try and sell us your version of events when you weren’t even there. You try to flavor as the truth but you are as clueless as anyone else.
Isn’t that what you were doing? And now when someone posts a link with questions the police and media accounts, you all of a sudden, you tell us not to do what you were doing in the first place?
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Brotherwolf
I don’t what to say – I’m spent. We have a witness to Trayvon being on top of Zimmerman punching and slamming his head. We have the shooting happening almost next to Zimmermans SUV which rules out the chasing nonsense. I don’t think you are capable of putting aside your racism and looking at reality.
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Textbook case of psychological projection.
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Someguy
“Textbook case of psychological projection.”
Proud of that sophomoric ad hominem?
Your self-esteem is entirely too high.
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@ Brahms
…and yours is entirely too low.
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@Randy
Do not twist my words around. If you wish to dispute my POV, then you must do so without relying on argumentative fallacies.
1) I have always agreed that no one knows what happened and since there are no witnesses to the chain of events we can only speculate. My speculations have been established on logical possibilities based on human nature. Past behavior is the best indicator of future behavior. Zimmerman has a past of aggressiveness and questionable tactics towards black males (according to complaints by his neighbors), and also has a history of violence (demonstrated towards both the cops and his girlfriend). Zimmerman also admitted to following Martin.
Martin, on the other hand, was an A & B student headed to college with no priors, despite his suspension record for, in my opinion, pretty typical teenage boy antics and his oh-so-scary appearance of tattoos and a dental grill (I honestly cannot even believe people are trying to use those as some kind of indicator).
Logical speculation does not lend itself to seeing Zimmerman as the victim in this case. I should emphasize that logical speculation.
2)
Not what I said, is it? Although taken out of context you do a good job of making it sound as if I advocate wanton violence on men in order to prevent any possibilities of crimes against women. Scary!
But since I specifically stated that this was not a situation of casually walking up to someone, but instead being first stalked and then chased, it sure does change the tune, doesn’t it?
3)
Again, not what I was saying at all, but I have a suspicion, based upon your argumentative style, that you already knew that. Interesting how you took the words from one concept and put them into another. This is not logical discussion, but an appeal to ridicule and these tactics are unacceptable.
My comments regarding social conditioning were in regards to why Martin would likely not call the cops or run and hide (as would be the most likely course of action in the scared woman scenario) if he felt in fear for his safety. I did not address social conditioning as an excuse to assault someone, and whether Martin assaulted Zimmerman or was defending himself is still in dispute between us.
I will say it again. I am not interested in having a discussion with someone who must rely on argumentative fallacies to support his POV. Leave them out, or I will not engage with you either.
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@Brahms
I don’t what to say – I’m spent. We have a witness to Trayvon being on top of Zimmerman punching and slamming his head. We have the shooting happening almost next to Zimmermans SUV which rules out the chasing nonsense. I don’t think you are capable of putting aside your racism and looking at reality.
Whether you like it or not, that was what you were doing with news articles expecting us to take them as objective information. But JT posted an article that questions those articles, especially the police testimony, and now it’s not vaild since we weren’t there??
Neither you or I were there. So why take your articles more seriously than JT’s?
And you are one to talk to me about putting aside my racism and looking at reality. Why can you follow your own advice? Why can’t you practice what you preach? Instead of pointing fingers at everyone else, why not take a look at yourself? Are you scared of what you may see?
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Here’s Jesse Lee Peterson’s opinion on the matter
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I guess you are Brahms.
However, that isn’t surprising seeing that you would find the member of the white ass-kissing black conservatives to back up your arguments.
Two can play this game:
Fight fire with fire.
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@Randy, bliff: Listen those tapes, will you. You hear it there. This guy gets out of his car, goes after the kid etc. He has a gun with him. And he has a criminal record and violent past. The kid does not. And you still claim that the kid is criminal, that the murdered person is the guilty one?
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Pazuzu all the way, man!
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@Someguy
I think my Atlantasistah tops Brahms’s Jesse Lee Peterson.
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@ Sam,
Trayvon was black. To Randy and Bliff, that alone means he’s guilty of something and deserved to be punished, even posthumously. That will never change because that “reality” is vital to their existence.
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@ace: I know. I know.
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There has not been anyone named Bliff on the Trayvon Martin posts for a good while. This whole TM topic has been beaten to death. I’m not here. OK?
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http://sanfordfl.gov/investigation/trayvon_martin.html
Full 911 calls, video etc from the source. Unedited. I didn’t know Zimmerman suggested they call him when they (the police) are in the area so he could give them his location. That was odd to me mainly because he probably should have remained on the line until the police arrived so that he could have guided them to him as he walked back to familiar territory (his car).
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call 4 is..weird. The caller mentions a man in a white shirt on top before running to the phone and hearing the gunshot (at the end of the call). Since it is dark, Martin’s hoodie wouldn’t be seen and in the police video Zimmerman’s shirt isn’t white. The only way a person had a white shirt that was visible is if Martin took of his hoodie (???) and was wearing a white shirt at the scene of the crime or if the shirt Zimmerman has on in the video footage is not the shirt that was on at the scene. Any thoughts?
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Well, here’s an interesting little update.
http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-video-shows-no-blood-bruises-george-194108003–abc-news-topstories.html
Not only is Zimmerman NOT the overweight, out-of-shape man we’ve been led to believe, but he appears quite well-built and does not appear to have been “beaten near death” as some have claimed.
In fact, there appears to be no blood, no bruises, no dishevelment of his clothing, not even any stains on his knees as one would see if a scuffle on the ground were to have happened.
Are we perhaps looking at a police cover-up of much greater proportions here?
I would hardly be surprised.
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Just listened to some of George Zimmerman’s 911 tape again. The dispatcher asked him “This guy, is he White, Black or Hispanic”? — Before then, Zimmerman only referred to him as “this guy”.
I find it reprehensible that the first question was to identify his race and classify him according to the choices offered. It forces the caller to make a split second guess about his racial background, and I am SURE that the response from the police is directly influenced by this initial racial profiling.
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Another new update:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/trayvon-martin-case-screams-911-tape-george-zimmerman-experts-article-1.1054067
Two forensic experts have concluded that it was not Zimmerman yelling for help on the 911 tapes.
In addition, EMS documents suggested Zimmerman didn’t sustain any injuries in the alleged fight (also supported by the police surveillance tapes). So much for that broken nose and busted head.
With every new piece of evidence, Zimmerman appears more guilty, and the level of cover-up to keep the judge’s son out of jail becomes more apparent.
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Justice was delayed but it won’t be deinied in this case. There are so may things that aren’t disputed.
1)That Trayvon Martin is dead
2)That GZ killed him
3)That he died from a gunshot
4)That Zimmerman’s gun was the murder weapon
Compare this to so many other murder cases where there isn’t a half as much verified fact, sometimes no body or murder weapon. GZ’s only defense is that the homicide was justified. And since the accused is the primary witness the jury’s verdict will come down to how credible they find him as a reporter of the facts.
Looking over parts of Zimmerman’s account, I found some of what he said difficult to believe and I think it would give any reasonable person pause.
Example:
1)GZ said he left his vehicle to determine which street he was on (near the clubhouse), not primarily to catch up with TM (though he was going in the victim’s direction).
Yet the recorded call to the police had GZ saying “the a**h***s always get away” and there was enough change in ambient sounds for the person on the phone to ask if he was following (to which he said ‘yes’) after which he was admonished to stay put. I also wonder why he didn’t know the name of the street the clubhouse was on though he’d lived in the community for years.
2)GZ said he lost track of TM and was returing to his car when he was ambushed. He said TM asked him “what was your problem” to which he responded “he didn’t have a problem” after which TM said “you have a problem now” and started attacking him.
This doesn’t have the ring of truth to me. Trayvon Martin’s girlfriend’s testimony of what she heard at the beginning of the fight is much more believable IMO. According to her she heard “What are you doing here?” to which TM responded “Why are you following me?” followed by some shoving and loss of audio. We know from the recorded police call that GZ thought TM “did not belong here”. So when GZ catches up to a black male he thinks “does not belong” what is more likely: “what are you doing here” or “I don’t have a problem”?
3)GZ said TM uttered “you got me” after being shot. I’ve read that the gunshot to his chest pierced TM’s heart and collpased his lungs (according to the autopsy report). If that’s the case, there is absolutely no way TM managed to produce a whole sentence after being shot. This is consistent with the sudden cessation of calls for help after the gunshot in the 911 tape. Those cries sound like the cries of a person who’s in immediate mortal danger and pleading for his life. It doesn’t sound like a hand-to-hand combat situation where strenuous activity is taking place. If you’re busy trading blows with someone trying to prevail in a physical fight would you be calling for help in that way. I doubt it. You be too busy warding off blows and firing off your own. They are the calls of someone desperate because he doesn’t have a chance against an armed man who is over him with a gun to his chest. GZ is trying to claim that was him from the very beginning since he knew people must have heard. However, at the time he gave his statement GZ had no way of knowing that audio of the blood-curdling screams had been captured. Now the jury will get to decide who they think it is.
To me, the most logical version of events is that GZ followed TM and confronted him because he was a young black male who “doesn’t belong here”. He said TM was suspicious because he was WALKING in the rain with and looking around. I wonder if he’d been less suspicious if running esp. since GZ said “s**t he’s running” and pursued him when he did start to run. (Sadly, I believe the only way TM would be alive today is if he’d been fortunate enough not to run into that psycho that night.) GZ looked for TM, found him, and confronted him. If TM thought he was in danger the sad events that follow prove his instincts correct. A physical scuffle ensued in which GZ took most of the injuries though nothing near to life-threatening. He pulled his weapon to reverse his fortunes in the fight and because he was angry. He held it at TM for a while probably saying threatening things as the young man begged for help. Even at this point, death could have been averted since GZ was in control of the situation and he’d already called the police. But for whatever reason, GZ chose to murder TM. I think this version of events is more consistent with what we know than GZ’s account in which tries to paint him as a victim rather than aggressor. The shocking thing about it is that he doesn’t think he did anything wrong. He may have been emboldened by the police coverup (though Chris Serino wanted to charge him with manslaughter).
Anyway, he’ll get what’s coming to him. America has its problems and racism isn’t dead. But most people these days aren’t absolute loose cannons and loons like James Holmes, GZ and racists who troll places like abagond. They’ll take their responsibility as jurors seriously and return a considered verdict. I’d be very surprised if he’s unanimously exonerated by a jury. Also, I think the federal hate crime investigation is still underway. GZ could face further charges.
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