The bootstrap myth, also called the meritocracy myth, says that anyone can come to America with nothing and, with hard work and clean living, rise into the middle-class in one, two or three generations: “My grandfather came here with $25 in his pocket. If he can do it, anyone can. What is wrong with black people?”
As commonly conceived it is
- way too simple and
- mainly used in a racist, self-serving way
Many whites use it to support their idea that American society is fair, that racism is dead. And then, in almost the same breath, they use it to support their own racist ideas! You know, that Asians and Jews have more intelligence, that blacks are shiftless layabouts, and so on.
In my experience, which mainly concerns West Indian New York, plenty of people do come to America with nothing and lift themselves into the middle-class – yet plenty more do not. Despite all their hard work and clean living. Because the key seems not to be hard work and clean living but a university degree in a useful field.
West Indians succeed not because racism died but because American public schools suck. New York, with its factories mostly gone, needs a work force that its schools cannot produce on their own.
Meanwhile one of the main images of America that is burned into my brain are the million or more people in New York who live in poverty through no fault of their own. And, by some Amazing Coincidence, few are white.
So when white people start with the bootstrap stuff it sounds self-serving and delusional. The Asians they love to talk about are part of a brain drain. They came to America with a much better education than most whites have. They hardly pulled themselves up from the bottom depending on American institutions.
And these Asians and West Indians most certainly do face racism. They succeed in spite of it, not because it has magically disappeared somehow.
The bootstrapper trope almost always overlooks black success. Half of blacks are now middle-class (or were just before the Great Recession). Something you would never know from the trope. They talk about Jews and Asians – and even the Irish – as if millions of blacks have not done the very same thing. Which shows that the trope comes from a racist mindset, not from the latest studies.
The “come to America with nothing” part is hugely misleading. Here is some of that “nothing”:
- education
- political rights
- whether immigration is voluntary or involuntary
- how much one’s culture has been destroyed
- knowledge of English
- parents’s class and education
- family support
- ethnic support and institutions
- internalized racism
- growth of the labour market
- racist hiring and promotion practices
- racist incarceration rates
- labour market
- housing market
- courts
- police
- the press
- Homestead Act
- manifest destiny
- television
- banks
- cheap black and Latino labour
- 347 years of slave labour
Excellent!
LikeLike
Abagond,
As usual, you have give me food for thought.
The bootstrap myth is just that, a myth. This self serving fallacy was created by whites to excuse their racist mindsets.
Most immigrants that come here have a family member ALREADY here to sponsor them, give them a place to stay and help them find jobs.
If English is a problem, many family members accompany them to job interviews, speak for them and help them fill out documents that they do not understand.
Since we have already established that racism in America is unruly and WILL NEVER DIE, it’s easy to see how some whites can make that argument.
Millions of people live in poverty.
Many are white.
But the media will never portray that on TV for it will ruin the illusion of supremacy.
The reason why so many blacks/ reds/ browns and yes, yellows live in poverty is due to white flight, redling and other racist practices.
When racist whites leave due to the arrival of ” the others”, value decreases…and that sets off a snowball effect.
You mentioned that American public school sucks.
Yes, how true.
Most of the money being poured into a good school system comes from people wealthy enough to KEEP it that way.
The best teachers, zero-tolerance for bullying / weapons, physical education, second languages and computer science are being utilized so these pupils will get a head start into the world.
Think of a person living at home with mom and dad who saves every penny, contributes nothing to the household then, after 3 years, buys a home in cash and says, ” Why can’t most people just work harder to own their own homes instead of working to pay mortgage every month?”
Same difference.
LikeLike
“Some of the ethnic support and institutions for whites which come with their “nothing”:”
***************************************
Excellent post and points!
You might consider adding educational grants/scholarships and political power/connections to your list.
LikeLiked by 1 person
And nepotism.
LikeLike
I posted this comment in the “How can it be racist if Asians do better?” thread.
This is what white people like to talk about – Asians bettering themselves despite the obstacles. Well, I can attest this doesn’t work for the many other Asian families I know who weren’t in similar circumstances. The bootstrap myth is indeed false.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Dead-on as usual Abagond. I think the bootstrap myth is one of the most surreptitious of all of white myths. It seeps through the mental pores of whites, allowing them to dehumanize people of colour based on the notion that they are slackers. Through portrayals as drug dealers/gang members/beggars/welfare queens (as you put it) or lazy, license is given to whites to attempt to further dehumanize people of colour. As if they didn’t attain standing in the market proper as popular representations dictate and accordingly, can be dismissed as economically impotent or unworthy of society’s reinforcement.
I also believe this bootstrap myth is used to help argue the case for the so-called war on drugs. Aka today’s Jim Crowe. But that’s another post, another day (trying hard not to get off topic as per usual =D)
‘
‘
‘
‘
LikeLiked by 2 people
As usual, great post Abagond. Working hard and staying clean doesn’t guarantee a place living in a middle class neighborhood or a place in a Fortune 500 company.
LikeLike
Very good post again. For some reason this myth is always repeated by the very rich, racists or fascists, but mainly those who have had pretty good position in life from the start.
As we can see, the story usually begins with that mythical ancestor who came to America with nothing but decent morals and willingness to work for thousand hours a day for nothing and yet not only survived but became wealthy, or at least middle class.
Another variation seen here often is a poor spouse who came from poor country with no skills at all and yet excelled so much so that now they are married with a WHITE american!!! Wow! They made it, finally!
This myth, like so many others, is part of the System and abagond once again puts it very well out there. Thanks!
LikeLike
Abagond,
What is it with you and these bootstraps? I took one look at the article and I was like, here we go again.
Anyway, just read the article half way and I’m going to bed now, so I will read the rest tomorrow….I had promised myself not to come back to posting on here, but I think I can’t help it especially when I see the new stuff.
LikeLike
@ Herneith
And…hiring your ” own kind “.
LikeLiked by 1 person
The application of the “Black Tax” can also be an impediment.
Definition: The notion that a black person has to work harder than a white person just to get the same amount of recognition, rewards or benefits.
I know. I know, lurkers. I hear ya. Just another “excuse.” 😉
LikeLiked by 2 people
You’re in a damnable position. If you get a promotion for example, it is because you are black. When it’s pointed out that the black person is highly qualified and credentialed(more so than the clown making this type of statement), they then revert to meritocracy of some sort. People who make such remarks are telling me this; they either consciously or unconsciously consider blacks to be at the bottom rung of the social hierarchy, and are outraged at any black person who, to these clowns are ‘uppity’. They see such things as affirmative action as taking something away from them. You can tell these fools until you the cows come home, that there are not enough blacks in the good ol US, much less Canada, to effect any of them(They could always move to a predominately ‘white’ state). Instead of blaming their own shortcomings, their government and education system, they prefer to blame racialized people, in particular, blacks. In reality, they are failures as white people if you go according to the ‘bootstrap’ and white supremacy mentality. If they had half a brain, they would realize they are being fornicated over by the powers that be. They prefer to take their vitriol out on ‘safe’ targets. When these ‘safe targets’ talk back or become resistive, it enrages them as they want others to feel miserable like they do. Sadly, in many instances it works.
LikeLike
As we can see, the story usually begins with that mythical ancestor who came to America with nothing but decent morals and willingness to work for thousand hours a day for nothing and yet not only survived but became wealthy, or at least middle class.
This is jokes fodder! The first ‘Americans’ were criminals and religious fanatics. It wasn’t some clown without a dime nor nickel to his/her name, that came later(industrialization). The natives learned this to their detriment! That was, is, propaganda put forth to lure these unsuspecting dupes here to provide cheap labour for the wealthy. It was also a good way to get rid of your riff raff, shite stirrers and the like.
LikeLike
I omitted a vital point in my last comment. Even after working harder, equal recognition, rewards and benefits are often still beyond a black person’s grasp.
LikeLike
@ Nom de plume
Spot on!
LikeLike
Here’s a cartoon for you, Abagond.
LikeLike
@darqbeauty:
Fitting cartoon. From a white cartoonist’s perspective.
LikeLike
@ darqbeauty
Thanks for the cartoon! I added it to the post.
LikeLike
That’s one of my favorite cartoons.
LikeLike
Apparently all white people are related because they seem to have the same ancestor who came with nothing and became awesome!
I can definitely attest that many white people often come in with an entitled attitude that displays this sort of arrogant mindset. Usually many white kids my age throw the bootstraps argument out to silence the idea that there is inequality whenever they want their props for their own success, but they’re quick to take it back when there’s enough financial inequity that it affects them too. Then all of a sudden we’re all in it together and America is so unfair. If you throw the bootstraps argument in their face at that point (“Well, America was really unfair to us black folks, but many of us are middle class! Your white, society is really good to you, so why can’t you pull yourself up like we had to?”), they get offended real quickly.
LikeLiked by 1 person
@leigh It isn’t false, it’s just real hard to do and most people don’t make it.look at the statistics of small businesses that fail, it’s like 85% or something like that. Asians and other recent immigrants that I know put alot of pressure on their kids to go to school as i will with my kids because they know how hard it is to make it here with nothing. You need the will and stamina of a marathon runner to do it.
LikeLike
@ SW6
Poverty as defined by the government (with handy chart):
http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/11poverty.shtml
For a family of four it comes to $22,350 a year or less. That is one and a half times a full-time minimum wage job.
Using that definition, 18.6% of New Yorkers or 1.5 million lived in poverty in 2011:
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/36/3651000.html
There are plenty of poor black and Latino neighbourhoods but no white ones I know of (though in the past there were certainly Irish and Jewish ones). Despite that there are some poor non-Hispanic whites, though not all that many as far as I can tell.
LikeLike
@ Dave
A lot of black families put pressure on their children to go to school too. Usually it is given with the message of “Do better than your white peers at every opportunity, because your A is treated like their C.” The problem is that, while the situation is usually hard for a lot of people, white people have a lot less obstacles in their way than non-white people. Hard work never guarantees success, and America is not enough of a meritocracy for that happen. That’s why it’s so easy to use the “Asian example” to explain why bootstraps are true while ignoring that beyond the acceptable minority Asians (and slanted statistics) many Asians face poverty and discrimination.
I heard an analogy that used sports. Lets say that your on a track and your racing against other people. Yeah, there are hurdles in every lane but yours, and you didn’t put them there. But you also didn’t tell anyone to move the hurdles to make it a fair race, and no one listened to the other racers when they kept asking to fix the track. Then lets say you run the race and win, and start to feel pride over it. When they’re upset that they are (despite all of their hard work) still losing, you tell them to work hard like you did. Yeah you might be a great runner, but it can’t be seen as a fair competition when you won due to an unfair advantage that was there before you ran, especially if you benefited from it. That’s why it’s so hard to take white people seriously when they use the bootstraps myth, because everyone knows that they had advantages that made their road a lot smoother than others who didn’t have the special complexion protection they did.
LikeLike
The people who like to talk about others who made it because they “pulled themselves up by their bootstraps” forget that they had to have the boots in the first place in order to do so.
LikeLike
From what I have been able to figure out… The bootstrap method does work, but it has enjoyed so few successes it may as well be labeled “The Lottery Bootstrap Method.” I cannot see how that could be an accepted process.
It is a good name for it though. It was only sometime in the early 20th century that it meant “bettering oneself through unaided effort.” In the 19th century it was a way of describing an impossible task. Sometimes the earlier definitions and uses are the more apt.
LikeLike
Sorry, forgot to post the link for that info.
Online Etymology Dictionary
LikeLike
The bootstrap myth is also very dangerous to poor whites.
LikeLiked by 1 person
The whole idea of telling a black children, in one of America’s worse ghettos, who has the odds stacked against them to such a degree much greater than that of a white child, even in a similar situation, to “rise above” and somehow “overcome” all of those obstacles is ridiculous and unrealistic.
They look at the child as a defect and ignore the overbearing influences.
What’s more realistic is getting those kids out of that environment and giving them the same opportunities that is obviously lacking in the environment they come from. Instead, they are told, just do the best with what’s around you, which is usually next to nothing and it’s your fault if you don’t make it—you should have tried harder. Sure, there are people who have done it, but why should anyone have to and why in the world would anyone think every child, or even most would be able to do this, who are in a similar situation….? Unrealistic.
LikeLike
If the Bootstrap Method worked, and was as reliable as people claim, then there wouldn’t BE that large classification of people called “The Working Poor” in America.
LikeLiked by 1 person
@Ace:
‘A lot of black families put pressure on their children to go to school too. Usually it is given with the message of “Do better than your white peers at every opportunity, because your A is treated like their C.”
—
Great example of the “Black Tax.”
***
@Leigh204:
‘The people who like to talk about others who made it because they “pulled themselves up by their bootstraps” forget that they had to have the boots in the first place in order to do so.’
—
That is exactly what then Democratic Nominee Barack Obama said during his 2008 speech in Denver. How can a person pull himself up by the bootstraps if he doesn’t have boots?
LikeLike
The Bootstrap concept is used most accurately to describe a laissez faire economic system vs. a centrally (government) controlled system. Certainly in a laissez faire system there are many who struggle and strive and never make it, but there is at least the possibility for some to elevate themselves, hence the oft-cited quip, I believe originally from Churchill, to the effect of, “capitalism is the worst economic system in the world, except for all of the others.”
A note about the obverse — let’s call it “pull yourself down by your bonnet straps”. In my work I deal with many people who have amassed significant net worth. In my experience, in most cases that net worth is dissipated within three generations of the death of the patriarch who built it.
The first generation generally ends up simply managing the fortune. Since these people grew up in relative privilege and luxury, they don’t have the fire in their belly to build it. But since they were scions of the man who did build it, they at least understand its structure and value and take care to preserve it. However, they do not deny themselves the material luxuries that the fortune can provide, and they will generally leverage themselves as much as the market will allow to acquire these material things.
The second generation therefore grows up in even greater privilege, with a sense of entitlement about a high standard of living in the sense of material goods, but with no direct connection to the structure of the family wealth. They simply assume that the wealth is how the world is structure. They attend fancy private schools, where they are further isolated from the world, and study things like Art History in college, with no practical nor economic value. Their life’s plan is to exist on the inheritance they will receive from their families.
However, what they generally fail to understand is that the inheritance consists of capital assets that must be managed. Since these people are typically cousins, they generally don’t have tight familial bonds that enable the open and clear communication necessary to manage complex capital assets. Typically, on the death of the second generation, assets are liquidated and the residue is pissed away by this third generation through profligate living.
Thus, by the third generation — the great grandchildren of the entrepreneur patriarch — the fortune is gone.
There are isolated exceptions, such as the Kennedys, but that’s really more a function of the sheer size of the fortune in the first place. That fortune is becoming dilute and dissipated as well.
LikeLike
The point being that, in the cartoon example at the bottom of the post, which illustrates the issue quite well, the white guy on the platform will fall off of his own accord, leaving the platform empty for the next taker. If you figure that the Jim Crow era was legally over by the end of the 1960’s, but factually in place on a widespread basis at least through the 1970’s, then you can see that the residue of whites in families on that platform level will now be variously at that first, second and third generation level.
This is why/how we have seen unconnected examples of black individuals finding bootstrap style success. The opportunities are presenting themselves, but in a piecemeal fashion.
LikeLike
I look at the bootstrap theory a bit differently, Abagond. I think that the application is usually racist since it’s used to disparage Black Americans.
But in truth no other group of Americans has pulled themselves up by the bootstraps the way African Americans have. Just 147 years ago most African Americans were held in bondage. They owned nothing, no property, no assets of any kind and most were not educated.
And just 1 and a half lifetimes since we collectively are worth billions of dollars. Almost 70% of us are working or middle-class. This despite Jim Crow and other examples of outrageous racism and bigotry.
So pulling yourself up by the bootstraps is not a myth, because we’ve done it. It’s only that most people can’t or won’t see what we have accomplished that adds the racist element.
LikeLiked by 2 people
@ valentina
Well said!
LikeLike
@ Valentina
Excellent comment.
LikeLike
Valentina,
Great point.
LikeLike
leigh204,
Despite your claim otherwise, your story actually affirms a personal example of bootstrap success.
Abagond,
Much the European diaspora which came to the US during the great migration waves in the latter 19th and early 20th centuries were predominantly poor and uneducated.
Certainly, they faced significantly less discrimination than black folks of their time, but life for most of them consisted of manual labor.
Abagond said:
My wife is one of these. They weren’t exactly handing out such degrees like candy back in the Philippines. Their family had no indoor plumbing and spent much of their meager resources on school fees.
Shortly after we began dating, we saw a TV program about failing public schools in NYC. She said to me, “Why do so many of those kids have music players and nice clothes if they’re not getting straight A’s?”
It didn’t make sense to her that the families of these children would allow them to not succeed academically, and even more incongruously, to provide them with “luxuries”.
LikeLike
@Randy:
Where did I say what happened to my uncle and aunts isn’t due to bootstrap success? My mother worked her ass off so her siblings could have a better life. And if it were as simple as Filipinos back home pulling their bootstraps, then would you care to explain why there are still countless millions in third world grinding poverty? GTFOHWTBS!
LikeLiked by 1 person
The assumption that poor kids can simply study and work hard to pull themselves out of poverty is wrong. How can a black kid who’s dad is punching his mom, go to school the next day, and learn math or proper grammar?
Randy’s assumptions are too idealistic and ignorant.
LikeLike
@ Leigh204
“GTFOHWTBS!”
*********************
AMEN
LikeLike
leigh204
You stated that the bootstrap myth is “indeed false”, so presumably that includes your family’s own extraordinary efforts.
By the way, this post is about bootstrapping in America, not overseas in an impoverished, developing nation, where the challenges are understandably much greater.
Although to be fair, some 10%+ of the population of the Philippines are overseas foreign workers, whose remittances comprise a staggering 13%+ of their GDP.
That’s a whole lot of bootstrapping.
LikeLike
Leigh204,
You go, girl.
LikeLike
I use to believe until the bootstrap theory…..until I, and many friends/acquaintances graduated from college. Some got graduate degrees. All of us studied STEM majors. They’ve all essentially become teachers(respectable work, but far from what they aspied to). I work in customer service. While som can get me for lack of certs/licenses, I know others who have certs/licenses, but are still underemployed. I’ve seen a grand total of one punch through and become a successful professional, the rest: just teachers, or otherwise severely under-employed, if employed at all. The one who made it had to spend much of their time after college(7+ years) working menial jobs, and trying to network their way up the ladder. So
LikeLike
My analysis is that, maybe bootstrapping holds on some level, but it’s increasingly becoming a mere myth
LikeLike
There’s a reason the saying “It’s not what you know, but who you know.” has remained so strong in America. Because it’s 100% true. All one has to do is take a glance at the working class, who are still working their butts off at a dead-end job just to make ends meet. I’m sure that people have heard the utterances of how they work incredibly hard at their job, and have very little to show for it. Not to mention that with this economy, many are/were forced to pick up a second job.
No. In order to be successful in America, you need serious luck and almost (you know…because you need the skill to maintain the position) nothing more. The overly simplistic notion of “primarily working hard ” (which is often favored by self-serving whites) rarely pays off, because there have been incredibly hard workers in America since its founding. People from generations of hard workers that (when you factor in inflation and other modern day variables) aren’t that much better off than their working class ancestors.
LikeLike
Franklin,
It’s not enough to work hard, but one generally has to work hard in an in-demand knowledge field. You can thank globalization for much of the recent rate-of-change of the labor market, although the trend towards business and mechanical automation was going to lower the relative value of human manual labor anyways.
Also, perhaps missing from these types of discussions is a definition of the term “success”. Fifty years ago, “middle-class” often meant you lived in a 900 square foot tract home with one bathroom and one car parked in the driveway.
Are you suggesting that a poor kid, black or otherwise, who gets good grades in school can’t reasonably hope to achieve that?
LikeLike
This isn’t fifty years ago. By that logic gaps will never close.
LikeLike
@ SW6
True, it could well be that poor whites are mixed into higher-class neighbourhoods and become less apparent.
Well, at least in my case, that is not how it has worked out, Time and again I have been surprised to find out that whites are more racist than I suspected:
LikeLike
@ Randy
1. You do know, right, that schools were common way before indoor plumbing was? Aristotle taught university-level material without indoor plumbing. Somehow.
2. You do know, right, that America as a whole has never been serious about seeing that blacks get a good education? That MOST white people, at least like 80% (probably more like 99.5%), are QUITE FINE with blacks going to shit schools? That that is like part of the function of the bootstrap myth?
LikeLike
The reason this scene is so powerful is not because it is not fiction, because it is, but because it hits home with so many people and for that there is truth in it.
LikeLike
@ Dave
I don’t really understand the statement you are making with this video. Can you please clarify? Thanks.
LikeLike
It’s funny that, in the US, people believe they have the most economic and social mobility in the world, yet they do not:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jess-coleman/thanks-dad_b_1209068.html
People love to believe that all you have to do to climb to the top is work hard, but working hard is not always enough. My parents (also in a western country with very low economic and social mobility) have worked five jobs between them with no holidays for more than a decade. Where has that got them? Lower than they were before, slipping further and further into poverty. According to the bootstraps theory, they should have made it somewhere by now.
LikeLike
@someguy, well sam said that the Ellis island ancestor story had a mythical aspect to it but for alot of us it is a proud moment in our family history, so I thought a visual response rather than verbal jargon would work better.
LikeLike
@Randy:
Bootstrapping, my heinie. You think my uncle and aunts became nurses on their own? Hardly. The only reason why my uncle and aunts did well is because they had help. Without my mom juggling a couple of jobs end trying to make ends meet and sending money back to the Philippines so that her siblings would have a proper education, they would not be where they are now. Why do I bother to explain anything to you anyway? Frankly, it’s a waste of my time. You just don’t get it.
LikeLike
@Iris:
Exactly! There are people busting their chops to no end hoping to achieve success through hard work and determination. And yet, without support and resources, then what? My mom admits she was fortunate to have landed the job she did. Her Canadian company was recruiting overseas especially in the Philippines. And she had to possess certain skills as a sewing machine operator in order to pass a test. If she hadn’t passed this test, she would not have been able to immigrate to Canada and she wouldn’t have been able to financially help her brother and sisters.
LikeLike
@ Dave
Gotcha.
LikeLike
…..You know, that Asians and Jews have more intelligence, that blacks are shiftless layabouts, and so on………
I’m an Asian. This is not true as far as I am concerned. They succeed or fail just like anyone else does. Concerning blacks, among the hardest working migrants in the West are the Nigerians and Ghanaians.
Coming back to Asians, in the West the break-up of marriages and family life is really a problem!
LikeLike
leigh204:
This is the essence of bootstrapping. It’s a family affair!
In this post, Abagond is attempting to argue against the claim that through sacrifice and hard work, the native-born and immigrants to America can rise to the middle class within 3 generations. He is suggesting that wholesale societal changes and government programs are required to make this dream accessible to them.
While the circumstances are slightly different, your family did it within 1 generation. Certainly there are never any guarantees in life, but what we’re debating here is whether the opportunity to succeed is available to those who are here.
Abagond contends that the poor in America (particularly non-whites) are doomed to it. I argue that those who work hard, sacrifice, and prioritize education (just like your mother did for her siblings) can indeed rise to the middle class within a few generations.
LikeLike
Abagond:
Black people can achieve “The American Dream” just like everybody else, but, racism is still an obstacle just the same. As i’ve said before, all races compete with each other for money, power, and resources. Black folk must understand this dynamic going forward. Whites built their power and wealth from slavery, asians built their wealth and power via whites in europe and the americas, etc. They got a running start on black people in that regard. They’re not smarter or better than us, our ancestors were slaves. Africa gave the world everything…history…language…law…government…engineering…science…medicine, music…art…dance, etc. We have no reason to walk around with our heads hanging low…None! Racism from others will always exist in some form in relation to black people. Envy makes human beings irrational, we can’t control that…Real Talk!!!
Tyrone
Black Eros
LikeLike
@ Herneith, Truthbetold, and Nom de Plume:
Nepotism AND cronyism…”It’s not what you know, it’s WHO you know and WHO you blow!”
I’ve said it before and I said it again – to me, it’s amazing that such a simple statement and concept goes over so many heads!
Selective reasoning and understanding…must be nice to have that ‘privileged’ mindset…it’s certainly limiting, though.
LikeLike
@randy:
It took government programs to make it even in theory possible. Or do you claim that abolishment of slavery was not an government level policy but an happy accident? Also, particulary in the South, blacks had no real possibility to rise before 1960’s.
You also forget happily the discrimination against the jews wich was still going strong in 1940’s when in some parts of the country they could not get a hotel room etc.
You forget that before education was provided for everybody, there was not much of hope for the poor ever to rise in social class in USA. The ones who did so in 1800’s where actually criminals by our standards.
Only when government has done something, laws have been changed, there has been a window of opporturnity for the poor and the minorities in USA.
LikeLike
@sam:
There’s no point in trying to convince Randy. He’s a lost cause.
LikeLike
Someone should take a bootstrap to Randy. I guess if you have 7 or eight jobs, go to school and starve until the age of 90 you are a success who has pulled your bootstraps up. That is if you can afford the boots to start.
LikeLike
sam,
You’re attacking a strawman. We’re talking primarily about contemporary times and the opportunities available to people now.
I’m sorry to have to use leigh204’s story against her will, but she (no doubt inadvertently) offered a prime counterexample to Abagond’s point.
So far, nobody has explained why other relatively poor people couldn’t do what leigh204’s mom did. I’ve personally observed numerous other examples in this mold, particularly among Filipino friends and family. Once again it comes down to families prioritizing education.
Quite frankly, the resistance to accepting this idea surprises me. Why wouldn’t you want to tell poor folks that they can succeed, and how to do it?
I’d rather encourage and empower people than to dispirit them with the suggestion that the system will prevent them from succeeding despite their best efforts.
LikeLike
I’d rather encourage and empower people than to dispirit them with the suggestion that the system will prevent them from succeeding despite their best efforts.
No one is discouraging anyone from trying to achieve. Who wrote that? This is a form of propaganda designed to take the blame off the perpetrators. Hence someone who works several jobs, or is under-employed, and has poor living conditions despite being employed, is fed this tripe so the blame falls on them. In fact they may even believe this to the point it may affect their health. People need to realize this. What’s being described here is a mode of propaganda which only serves capitalist masters.
LikeLike
LikeLike
Exactly, your uncle and aunts did not become nurses simply through their own hard work and clean living. They also had the advantage of connections. Something my parents lack. Yes, they have family, but there is no obligation for them to help (especially if they are also struggling) and family can easily be selfish.
Take my uncle and aunt, for example. Instead of working hard, they chose to lie about being mentally disabled and they get more money in benefits than my parents do working five jobs, with no weekend for my dad. They sit around smoking and watching their flatscreen TV, while my parents work themselves to the bone and get repossession warnings every few months. My parents claimed for benefits several times, but less than $2 a week in the bank to spend on food makes them `too rich’ to get benefits. It’s lucky they get a little cash-in-hand, else they would starve, but they get further and further behind on rent because they have to eat.
A bootstraps theory supporter would probably say they should move, but the prices all around them in that city have risen so high they would be fools to move out of their home when it is currently a lot cheaper than every other place around. They would probably then say they should move to another city. With what money? Less than $2 a week? Find another job? What do they think my parents are doing with their tiny amount of spare time? No such luck there. Go bankrupt? Where they live, to go bankrupt costs money! About USD1,500. They are quite stuck and bootstrapping gets them nowhere.
Don’t you think it’s funny how a lot of bootstraps theory supporters have never been born into poverty and worked their way up?
LikeLike
@Iris:
How is it that you understand what I’ve been saying all along and Randy doesn’t?
LikeLike
Don’t you think it’s funny how a lot of bootstraps theory supporters have never been born into poverty and worked their way up?
I noticed that too, Iris.
LikeLike
I wrote about this same topic, and I put in a little historical truth behind it:
http://brothawolf.wordpress.com/2011/04/22/working-hard/
LikeLike
@randy:
“Quite frankly, the resistance to accepting this idea surprises me. Why wouldn’t you want to tell poor folks that they can succeed, and how to do it?
I’d rather encourage and empower people than to dispirit them with the suggestion that the system will prevent them from succeeding despite their best efforts.”
Well, first of all, millions of those poors will never succeed no matter what they do. On the contrary, millions have fallen during the past few decades from the lower middle class to the class of poors. In USA there are jobs which pay out even less than the minimum so that you have millions of people who have two jobs only because without the other they simply can not afford to go to the first job. To tell them THEY CAN DO IT is a basically fooling them into believing in the american system which is the real problem here.
I’d rather change the System than fool the poor into believing in system that allows the poverty and keeps it up in the first place and according to which you are poor simply because you have not what it takes,
LikeLike
I agree. In fact, there are generations of blacks who are upper class. Lawrence Otis Graham wrote about them in his book “Our Kind of People,” about 15 years ago now.
The other aspect that is overlooked in this bootstrap trope is white poverty. As I understand it 34% of whites are on food stamps. So clearly, boot straps did not work for a large part of the white population either. But you will never hear about that. Poverty is almost exclusively viewed as a “black problem.”
LikeLike
@ leigh204
I think it is because when people are born with certain privileges, it is really difficult for them to face up to the fact that it wasn’t only their own hard work, intelligence, morals, etc. that got them where they are. It’s hard for them to acknowledge that they could be rewarded for simply being born the way they are, whereas others are punished for being born the way they are. This makes lots of people uncomfortable, so they do their best to deny everything.
There are probably other things that would influence this, but those are the basics of what I think about privileged people who refuse to `get’ topics to do with racism and other isms.
@ brothawolf
Glad to know I’m not the only one.
Thank you for the link, it was an interesting read and, naturally, I agree with a lot of it. Hard work by itself is not always enough. Working hard is the only variable a person can change, but there are many other variables they can’t do anything to change. e.g. If they work hard, but never get promoted, they cannot make their employer give them a promotion. If they worked hard in uni, but potential employers won’t give them a job due to lack of experience, they cannot force them to change their minds. If they worked hard all their lives and took a big fall because of the recession, they cannot erase the recession. They can only work hard and working hard doesn’t give one the power to change the world and mind control people.
LikeLike
It’s the good old-fashioned, media-driven “what you see here is what applies everywhere” fallacy. For most white people, television dictates their entire worldview (in America, let me add that caveat.) Because of this, any changes in social status among “others” in their personal range of vision is filtered through what they see on the TV. If you visit the Midwest, you’ll meet thousands of people who have used the same Chinese-run laundry, restaurant and delivery company for 2+ generations (and they’ll swear on a stack of bibles that all Asians are geniuses because the Asian kids in the local schools bring home A’s, despite the fact that the parents of those kids are still working out of 1500 square yard shops.) These same people will buy clothes from black owned stores, go to black doctors, get their taxes filed in a H&R Block with multiple black accountants, sell heating oil to black owned houses with black renters, etc. (and swear again on the same bibles that black people are mostly a step above mentally disabled because a bunch of teenagers made a flash mob and their kids’ sports teams are half-black.) And if you’re like me and you have access to a school administratoror two, you can ask them questions like, “If Asians are so smart, then why haven’t they sold their business and retired to someplace cheaper?”, or, “If black people are so stupid, then why are more than half of the black students in your schools pulling in a hard C (with a C grade being between 78-84 in the specific grading system?), and watch the wheels turn and churn.
I’m a NYC native who has spent decades hanging out in places like Chinatown and Flushing, you can’t tell me sh*t about Asian mental superiority that I can’t debunk in 30 minutes of travel. The schools in those majority-Asian areas are just as raggedy as the schools in other poor NYC neighborhoods (with a less than 5% difference in dropout rates as compared to majority black or latino schools.) The same busted, brokedown (but with pretty furnishings) restaurants are there, run by the “so smart” children of the people who opened the restaurants before I was born. The cooks are the same as in my childhood (in fact, Chinatown may be the sole section of the city in which Central Americans *aren’t* the bulk of the kitchen staff nowadays.) Almost all of the cheap trinkets stores are still there, the same coterie of bums are still there, the same generation of underground brothels and gambling parlors are still there, etc. (In fact, the sole change is the addition of a couple of ‘designer’ mini malls.) When you travel uptown to Little Japan and Koreatown, its the same thing. Dozens of restaurants and trinkets shops and *ahem* massage parlors, buffeted by the multitude of immigration lawyer shops and the random Asian “big brain” business.
IME, Asians have the same “upwardly mobile” business plan as other minorities-study your ass off, get into the best school possible, cross fingers and pray. Unlike blacks or Latinos, however, Asians have a less threatening stereotype attached to them (which allows them to take advantage of AA like gangbusters.) In comparison, blacks and Latinos with the right connections can be found all over Europe (when I lived in Germany, I met almost 1,000 black Americans (65% working, 33% students) who couldn’t find work in the States but got a hookup from a Swedish or Belgian exchange student during an internship. I won’t name names, but in a time in which American businesses are at least claiming to want “qualified” African-American workers, the various tech-based international businesses in Germany’s Silicon Valley was flush with dark faces. Hell, I have two cousins (engineers) who have given a nod to my statement (one of them is an electrical engineer. He took a business trip to Ireland for a conference as his company’s token black and was greeted by over 20 African-Americans working between the three foreign corporations who were hosting the conference. One of the corps was *Samsung*, and the antipathy between Koreans and black people is well known.) How ridiculous is it that a qualified/credentialed black man has a better shot at getting work with Nokia or Aldi than in “our own” country? How asinine is it that the most effective way for black people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps is to say, “F*ck it, I’ll take that job at Boehringer-Austria Division because Parr Pharmaceuticals won’t take me here.”
Tl;dr: Due to an AA policy that favors women and Asians, more and more credentialed black people are working overseas. Because of this set of circumstances, media executives are surrounded by “positive” Asians at work and “negative” blacks at play (simply put, they see Asians as financial backers and/or technical workers at their jobs, then listen to gangsta rap and buy their weed and coke from black people.) Because people, regardless of background, “write what they know”, the media produces tons of model minority Asian/ghetto trash stereotypes for public consumption. The white public consume this information and use it to buttress their own stereotypes (which leads to them ignoring Asian failure and black achievement/parity.) With the addition of “if it bleeds, it leads” news media, the average white person sees hundreds of black people acting ignorant per year, buffers that information with their own experiences of BBB (Blacks Behaving Badly) and ignores the thousands of black people who *aren’t appearing in the newspaper or the 6 o’Clock News either robbing a pensioner or catching a ball.. Likewise, by living in areas in which the half-dozen Asian kids are eating knowledge like Tic-Tacs and always appearing on the honor roll (and where their local colleges are stacked with foreign-born Chinese students on government scholarships), reading articles about Asians getting high positions in various companies and seeing Asians on TV who are doing well allows them to ignore the dozens of asian slums in America (in the same way that no one ever sees TV shows based in rural parts of this country and therefore only knows about white poverty from the random news story about crystal meth.)
P.S. I don’t know if its been done, but I’d love to see a post about “magic businesses” and the tendency of people to believe that anyone can become a millionaire by opening up “their own store!”, with blackjack, and hookers! I’ve known a lot of black people who hate on small business owners, but the amount of white people who use “but {insert favoured minority type here} has a business and he’s doing well, so why don’t those damned {insert unfavoured minority type here} do the same!?”, while *concurrently complaining about how their relatives’ businesses are doing in this economy* and *voting for people who pay lip service to the needs of small business owners.*
LikeLike
“What is wrong with black people?”
Stupid and violent.
LikeLike
[…] in America are little to no value. Now children of color are force-fed nonsense such as the bootstrap argument instead of having an honest discussion about how White Privilege exploits disenfranchised […]
LikeLike
[…] people push back and demand reciprocity, society calls us whiners, complainers, and given the bootstrap speech. Black people are still discriminated on a social, economic, and political level yet society […]
LikeLike
The bootstrap myth is just that, a myth. My ancestors didn’t become successful only on hard work and determination, they just gradually got socially constructed as white people instead of as “German immigrants” or “Irish immigrants”.
It’s interesting that you mentioned Asian-Americans because racist white people just love to cast them as the “model minority”. In other words, some white people like to point at Asians and say, “Look the Asians are doing so well, why can’t you blacks, Hispanics, and Native Americans be more like them and pull yourselves up by your bootstraps?” In reality, it is not the case that Asian-Americans are doing better than white people, in fact, the average income of an Asian household more closely resembles the average income of a black or Hispanic household than an average white household.
Unfortunately, many Americans have been brainwashed into believing that we live in some sort of meritocracy where things like white privilege, class privilege, male privilege, and heterosexual privilege don’t exist and that it’s supper-easy just to pull yourself up by your bootstraps.
LikeLike
LikeLike
This myth may have been created by white Americans, but it has been embellished by African Americans; i.e. Bill Cosby, Herman Cain, Skip Gates, Larry Elder and to an extent Charles Barkley.
LikeLike
[…] her wealth – it’s a sign that she’s worked hard. Even though social Darwinism and the Bootstraps Myth have clearly not worked to create jobs or help the needy. Which is how you can end up with stupid […]
LikeLike
I don’t really feel this debate is substantive. Of course the “bootstrap myth” hasn’t worked for everyone. The American Dream has been denied to a lot of hard-working, good, decent people who get unlucky, face racial barriers, lack institutional advantages and privileges, etc. You did a very good job to prove that.
But what are we to teach our kids? I think that if you sell the bootstrap myth as: poor people deserve to be poor because they didn’t work hard, clearly that’s racist and self-serving. But if I want to teach my kids (who don’t exist yet, but roll with me) that working hard and playing by the rules gives you the best chance at success, why is that racist and self-serving? What other advice should I give them? What advice would you give to my rhetorically-useful, imaginary children? Now I can see how you wouldn’t want to tell them that hard work and self-sacrifice always pay off for everyone in every situation always. That’s clearly not true. But am I to tell them that there is no correlation between hard work and success? That the world is just some racial lottery and we won it, so just abuse your privilege and thank your lucky stars you weren’t born black?
LikeLike
[…] ourselves up by our bootstraps” which was The Mr’s way of making a reference to the bootstraps myth because he’s a good feminist/anti-racist/overall socially justice minded kind of person), […]
LikeLike
Some folks don’t have boots. So someone has to help them. Yes many African Americans have achieved the American dream. But some people have someone giving them the metaphorical boots so they can have the so called straps to pull themselves up.
LikeLike
Just poorly argued opinions. Get a degree. Learn to think. Race obsessed weirdo.
LikeLike
Well said Hegro! That was an extremely well-argued retort to all those poorly argued opinions! Thirteen whole words! Now let me guess, your degree must be the PhD in Rhetoric from Oxford?
LikeLike
Not sure why you’d need to go to Oxford to see through this nonsense. Maybe the idea of education is mystifying to people like you. Since you never bothered to obtain one, you just don’t understand it. Very odd. White privilege is an unsupportable joke. It must be horrible for you to hear someone who doesn’t share your opinions. Bizarre.
LikeLike
@ Hegro
So you assume a person does not have an education based on what? Your ignorance or belief that thinking outside of the box equals lack of education? Do tell. So far it seems horrible for you to hear people that do not share your opinion. So sad.
LikeLike
Hegro, trust me—you’re barking up the wrong tree on the education issue.
Yesss… and that’s precisely why I don’t support it!
Will there be anything else Poindexter, or are you ready to take your leave? Do close the door on your way out, we don’t want any additional dimwits to find there way in.
LikeLike
@Hegro:
Pull yourself up by your bootstraps please!
LikeLike
A common example of the Bootstrap Myth is the case of immigrants opening up businesses in poor ghettos, but who manage to send their kids to top universities.
Nothing exposes the fallacy of the myth than examples like these.
LikeLike
@ jefe
I don’t get it.
LikeLike
My point is that poor immigrants who “make it” in 2-3 generations are among the examples of those who pulled themselves up by their bootstraps. However, the pre-assumption is that they came with “nothing”, but actually, they have many resources to tap into that help get them on their feet, eg, immigrant networks (which can provide sources of training, experience, risk protection and financing), as well as less acculturation into mainstream social norms which have many aspects of white racism built into it. In other words, they do better by operating outside the system.
So, yes, they are examples of how people pull themselves up by their bootstraps, but it is spurious to use them as examples to people who do not have access to these resources.
I started to draft a post about that. I will send it in later after I clean it up a bit.
LikeLike
Reblogged this on The Racist and Unoriginal Anglo-American Entertainment Industry.
LikeLike
So what with African-Americans being less willing to accept help with educations in school and less willing to accept economic help IE welfare etc…..
Is part of the reason that they have higher levels of poverty ironically enough because they believe “too” much in the bootstrap myth?
LikeLike
“The key seems not to be hard work and clean living but a university degree in a useful field.” This is wrong for two reasons. One they don’t just hand out degrees to folks. Folks need to WORK HARD to get the degree. Secondly, you can’t just get a job, not work hard, and find success. I don’t know a single successful person who doesn’t work hard and live relatively clean lives. I know many folks with degrees looking for work. I know many more folks who’s risky behavior lands them in all kinds of trouble that seriously impedes their ability to become successful. Seriously bro are you like 19?
LikeLike
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJoKNg5QYaY)
LikeLike
[…] The bootstrap myth: If Jews or Asians or my grandfather can make it in America, anyone can. Blacks are just a bunch of layabout whiners. […]
LikeLike
[…] Is all of the Bill Cosby/conservative influenced “bootstrap lecturing” really about creating success stories? Or is it some systematic, money-racketing, racial or holy crusading issue? […]
LikeLike
Pathetic, damaging, dishonest and dysfunctional half truth. You need a seventh panel where the white guy is reaching out (in the form of education, civil services, welfare, those trillions from the Great Society on) -to show how it’s done- and the black guy is flipping off the white guy while several other black guys are trying to thug both of them. It’s all about culture not race, decide which one you want to belong to.
LikeLike
@ Peope R. People
“It’s all about culture not race, decide which one you want to belong to.”
Your attempt to dismiss the role race plays in all aspects of life in the US (and globally) displays the usual dishonesty of White Supremacists. In the USA, race trumps culture, economics and education. That has been true for centuries now.
Unless a person of African descent is pale enough to pass for European they don’t get to “decide which one you want to belong to.”
Moreover, the notion that “the white guy is reaching out (in the form of education, civil services, welfare, those trillions from the Great Society on)…” is laugh out loud ludicrous.
The “White Guy” has been doing an extremely poor job of providing anything that is rightfully due Black American citizens———and anything “provided” is usually done under extreme duress (such as the Civil War and mass mobilizations like the Civil Rights Movement) and retracted as soon as humanly possible.
I’m not buying that “White guy” is so giving and wonderful speech.
LikeLike
@ Peope R. People
Comment deleted for moderated language.
LikeLike
Not to mention that the white guy wouldn’t need to “give” if he wasn’t stealing all the time.
LikeLike
@Sharinalr
So true!
“Give”, hah!
LikeLike
It’s all about culture not race, decide which one you want to belong to.
But I don’t see colour! LOLZ!
LikeLike
Then how did half of blacks get into the middle class?
LikeLike
@ Molly
The Civil Rights Movement.
LikeLiked by 1 person
@Sharina: Exactly.
LikeLiked by 1 person
“Molly
Then how did half of blacks get into the middle class?”
“Afrofem
@ Molly
The Civil Rights Movement.”
That view is disputed by people like Thomas Sowell and others.
“In Affirmative Action Around the World (2004)[39] and Civil Rights[40] Sowell demonstrates that on several measures, black progress was actually better before the era of the expanding welfare state and affirmative action era of the 1970s, and even the Civil Rights Act of 1964, than in the contemporary era.”
http://nilevalleypeoples.blogspot.com/search?q=thomas+sowell
LikeLike
@ gro jo
This is what the Nile Valley Peoples writer had to say about Sowell on Black progress:
[2nd paragraph of the opening comments]
http://nilevalleypeoples.blogspot.com/search?q=thomas+sowell
It wasn’t until the Civil Rights Movement cut through many of the artificial constraints of Jim Crow (in the South, North and West) that many Black people were able to access jobs and capital sources that propelled them to the “middle class”.
Prior to that time, many intelligent and industrious Black people were confined by custom and law into menial labor jobs and careers. If a Black person were fortunate enough to secure a profession or union job in the North or West, they were still paid half or less than their White counterparts. Now the percentage has increased to 70 percent of the White male dollar (Black women are still paid half or less).
Perhaps that is progress to some….
LikeLiked by 1 person
@Gro jo
And a great counter from your source:
Sowell’s philosophy falls on the right-wing/conservative/libertarian continuum and as a result his writing is slanted towards such. As an economist he is in an excellent position to dispassionately view a socio-economic process but in practice a great deal of his writing is spent on attacking “the liberals” negatively, with little comparative scrutiny applied to his favored right wing/libertarian side of the fence. This ideological bent, which is not unique to public intellectuals, means that he sometimes cherry-picks evidence while failing to engage contrary viewpoints in detail.
For example, he spends a great deal of time showing how competition acted to in some cases counter race discrimination and racism, but he quickly glides over the many cases where racism trumped competition, or where racial discrimination coexisted quite nicely with competition. Sowell is also great on using factoids- some fascinating. For example he shows that black income rose faster than white income after the Civil War as part of his demonstration on how free markets can overcome or counter discrimination (Ethnic America 1981). It appears impressive, but the black income baseline begins at such a low level- zero in the case of most slaves- that ANY increase would appear large and impressive. And yes black income and resources rose, but while this was happening the pernicious sharecropping and Jim Crow system descended on the newly freed ex-slaves- to the profit of whites. In short, despite the beneficent effects of competition, racism became quite well entrenched and benefited whites greatly.
All of this is made more understandable by recognizing that Sowell was employed or funded by the right–wing Heritage Foundation, a leading conservative think-tank, and in his heyday- the 1980s and 1990s – Sowell was a darling of Reaganites, neoconservatives, and conservatives alike. He counts Bell Curve ideologue Charles Murray as one of his friends. This is not to say that Sowell TOTALLY compromised his scholarship to please his paymasters. As will be seen below, some of his work undermines right-wing propaganda, so much so that these days some right wingers seek to downplay his work. He shows in his analysis of white European ethnic groups for example that claims to special northern European white virtue are laughable on some counts, (some northern European immigrant groups as one instance are the among the most crime-prone in US history) and criticizes his friend Charles Murray’s much hailed “Bell Curve” as relying in naive use of statistical correlations (The Bell Curve Wars- 1996). QUOTE:
LikeLike
@Afrofem
😂😂😂 looks like we took the same counter route, but you were faster.
LikeLike
“sharinalr
@Afrofem
😂😂😂 looks like we took the same counter route, but you were faster.”
What counter route? Sowell, like everyone else, has to sing for his supper. A number of blacks built businesses prior to The Civil Rights Movement. Can any of you show that they grew after “…many Black people were able to access jobs and capital sources…” I was under the impression that a number of them perished. The post you use indicates that a number of institutions, such as Dunbar high school suffered. The post also documents that women and minorities, other than black were the main beneficiaries of Affirmative Action. Sowell’s human capital argument seems pretty solid. Please show me the industries Blacks were prominent in that they ended up controlling due to the Civil Rights Movement?
LikeLike
@ gro jo
“Please show me the industries Blacks were prominent in that they ended up controlling due to the Civil Rights Movement?”
Are you deflecting again?
The question Molly posed had to do with large numbers of Black people earning enough to be labeled middle class. For the vast bulk of Black people those earnings come from jobs, not businesses.
Perhaps we can agree that middle class status is precarious without a wealth engine behind it such as dominating industries with vertical integration structures (retail stores, wholesale distribution and manufacturing capabilities).
That is one reason, I’m not impressed with Molly’s question. Black middle class status is extremely unstable. Citing such status is usually a tactic that White Supremacists use to shut down discussion about anti-Black racism and its many withering effects.
LikeLiked by 1 person
@ Sharinalr
The funny thing is the source is one that gro jo originally cited.
Go figure.
LikeLiked by 1 person
“Are you deflecting again?” How? You claimed that “…many Black people were able to access jobs and capital sources that propelled them to the “middle class”.” Capital sources, in my book, means investments to start businesses, so my question is legitimate. What do you mean by capital sources?
I cited the source because the author was making a complex argument that questioned the claim that the Civil Rights movement was the source of the gains made. He seemed to agree with Sowell that urbanization had more to do with the advances recorded. Do you agree or not? How about the claim that Affirmative Action did more for women and other minorities, while Blacks get blamed for it, do you agree with that claim?
” The true beneficiaries of affirmative action are not the less fortunate but those already advantaged
In his 2004 Affirmative Action Around the World Sowell holds that affirmative action covers most of the American population, particularly women, and has long since ceased to be directed towards blacks, although blacks are often invoked as primary beneficiaries, and that the main beneficiaries are not the less fortunate but those already able to well help themselves:
Sowell shows that immigrants suffering no past discrimination in the United States have also sometimes been classified as “approved minorities” and have also benefited from Affirmative Action. The affluent Fanjul family from Cuba for example, with a fortune exceeding $500 million, received contracts set aside for minority businesses. European businessmen from Portugal received the bulk of the money paid to minority owned construction firms between 1986 and 1990 in Washington D.C. Asian businessmen immigrating to the United States have also received preferential access to government contracts. Sowell also argues that while affirmative action began as a program primarily intended to benefit blacks, a huge majority of minority- and female-owned businesses are in fact owned by groups other than blacks, including Asians, Hispanics, and women.[53]
In addition, the vast majority of minority firms appear to gain little from government set-asides. In Cincinnati, for example, 682 minority forms appeared on the city’s approved list but 13% of these companies received 62% of preferential access and 83% of the money. Nationally, one-fourth of one percent of minority-owned enterprises are certified to receive preferences under the Small Business Administration, but even within this tiny number, 2% of the firms received 40% of the money.[53]
The history of black achievement prior to the affirmative action era is too often lost and overlooked, Sowell holds, and contradicts some right-wing claims that blacks have not pulled themselves up, or that seek to tar black progress as a function of affirmative action. The same history also contradicts some liberal claims that government programs like race quotas are responsible for black progress, when the facts show that the main beneficiaries of such programs are often non-blacks, and that there has been a long-standing trend of black advance before such programs.”
LikeLike
@gro jo
“What counter route?”—The counter route to what you are attempting to present. Duh.
“A number of blacks built businesses prior to The Civil Rights Movement”—Didn’t say they didn’t, but I also am well aware that despite building it was always destroyed, because as your source says “racism trumped competition”.
Maybe you would have gotten that if you weren’t so quick to type without thought.
LikeLike
@ gro jo
“He seemed to agree with Sowell that urbanization had more to do with the advances recorded. Do you agree or not?”
I don’t agree. When Black people migrated away from the rural South, they still dealt with major obstacles to economic and social advancement, such as closed unions and openly discriminatory hiring practices in the private and public sectors. From the 1920s to the 1940s, the bulk of Black urban workers were employed as domestic/janitorial workers, cooks and laborers. Only after A. Phillip Randolph threatened a 100,000 strong March on Washington in the 1941 did Black people finally have access to factory jobs in the war industries.
According to The Black Past:
http://www.blackpast.org/aah/presidents-committee-fair-employment-practice-fepc/
In my view, any “advances” by Black people have been the result of self-directed political and social struggle, not location or “throw them a bone to keep them quiet” social programs cooked up by the government.
You make some sound points about Affirmative Action. The rightwing used it as a propaganda weapon against Black people when the bulk of the benefits went to everyone but Black people.
I find it interesting that you are Black-washing Thomas Sowell. Your source described him as “a formidable intellect with training as an economist”. I found him to be little more than a common streetwalker who contorted his “formidable intellect” into whatever shape his White customers desired. I wish he had used his intellect to serve and uplift Black people instead of excoriating them for money and social favors.
What a waste.
LikeLike
““What counter route?”—The counter route to what you are attempting to present. Duh.”
How old are you? You sound like a silly little kid. Please tell me what I’m trying to present?
““A number of blacks built businesses prior to The Civil Rights Movement”—Didn’t say they didn’t, but I also am well aware that despite building it was always destroyed, because as your source says “racism trumped competition”.”
Nonsense. The hotel MLK was killed at belonged to a black multimillionaire by the name of A.G. Gaston, please tell me when and how his business was ‘destroyed’? He wasn’t the only one. How was Captain Paul Cuffee’s business ‘destroyed’. How about Jeremiah G Hamilton who sued Cornelius Vanderbilt and died in 1875 with a fortune of $2 million? How was T.R.M. Howard’s business ‘destroyed’? Please stop with the simple minded arguments. I’m trying to have a serious conversation about Black human capital and its waste and or destruction. If you have nothing to contribute, please stay out of it.
LikeLike
“I find it interesting that you are Black-washing Thomas Sowell.” Are. you. joking? I don’t even understand what you mean by “Black-washing”. Sowell has argued against the racists who tried to ‘prove’ genetic ‘inferiority’ by pointing out some uncomfortable facts that they don’t want to hear.
” I found him to be little more than a common streetwalker who contorted his “formidable intellect” into whatever shape his White customers desired.”
That’s why I wrote above that the man sings for his supper. That fact doesn’t occlude the fascinating facts that can be found in his oeuvre. I dismissed him as you do before reading this post on nilevalleypeoples.
“From the 1920s to the 1940s, the bulk of Black urban workers were employed as domestic/janitorial workers, cooks and laborers. Only after A. Phillip Randolph threatened a 100,000 strong March on Washington in the 1941 did Black people finally have access to factory jobs in the war industries.”
Percentage of African–American and White Populations Living
in the South, 1900–2010
Year % Black % White B/W
1900 89.7 24.7 3.63
1910 89.0 25.1 3.54
1920 85.2 25.5 3.35
1930 78.7 25.7 3.06
1940 77.0 26.8 2.87
1950 68.0 27.3 2.49
1960 59.9 27.4 2.19
1970 53.0 28.4 1.87
1980 53.0 31.3 1.69
1990 52.8 32.8 1.61
2000 53.6 33.9 1.58
2010 55.0 34.9 1.58
Sources: US Census Bureau, Historical Census Statistics on Population Totals By Race, 1790 to 1990, Available at: http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0056/
twps0056.html; US Census Bureau, The Black Population 2010, Available at: http://www. census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-06.pdf; US Census Bureau, The White Population 2010, Available at: http://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-05.pdf. All websites mentioned here accessed on 15 February 2013.
The ratio of Blacks living in the less industrialized South compared to Whites ranged from 3.63 in 1900 to 2.49 in 1950, I don’t see a huge decrease of that ratio due to FDR. The move North seems to have been the biggest factor in the improvement of the plight of Blacks.
LikeLike
@Afrofem @Sharina
I applaud you two for your patience, determination and stamina.
Even though I might not always agree with all your standpoints sometimes, I do believe that you do argue in good faith.
LikeLiked by 1 person
gro jo
“You sound like a silly little kid.”—Most of your comments are that of a silly little kid. Tour childish and at this point I see no point in speaking to you as an adult.
“Please tell me what I’m trying to present?”—I dont need to tell you what you prrsented as I am sure you know well what you attempted. Plus this round of questioning is basically how you shift goal posts. You asked what counter route was being used. Any time a response is presented against your claim is a counter. Grow up.
“Nonsense.”—I think not, seeing as I quoted that small tidbit from your source.
The hotel MLK was killed at belonged to a black multimillionaire by the name of A.G. Gaston, please tell me when and how his business was ‘destroyed’? He wasn’t the only one. How was Captain Paul Cuffee’s business ‘destroyed’. How about Jeremiah G Hamilton who sued Cornelius Vanderbilt and died in 1875 with a fortune of $2 million? How was T.R.M. Howard’s business ‘destroyed’?”—Yet where are any of those businesses now?” and here is where you use example to switch goal posts as usual. None of those are in existence today and if racism was not a factor they will would be. But let use not forget Rosewood and other black middle class towns that were destroyed by racism because a hand full of blacks accumulated millions.
“Please stop with the simple minded arguments.”—I would ask thr same of you, but it seems so hard to do. Yet I gather you are way too old to be playing thr games tou do.
“I’m trying to have a serious conversation about Black human capital and its waste and or destruction. If you have nothing to contribute, please stay out of it.”—No, you arent trying to have a serious conversation when you have dont nothibg more than attempt to switch the goal post. The issue is not that blacks did not and could not accomplish prior to solve rights. The issue is that any achievements were destroyed. None of the people you presented above refute that and none of them are.middle class which is actually what the conversation is about.
LikeLike
jefe
Thank you. We have had out disagreements but I greatly respect you and your comments.
LikeLike
Excuse my massive typos.
LikeLike
Abagond, wtf happened to my reply to Afrofem? It ended in ‘moderation’ hell for some strange reason.
“sharinalr
Excuse my massive typos.” No doubt a sign of your lack of seriousness.
“Yet where are any of those businesses now?” and here is where you use example to switch goal posts as usual. None of those are in existence today and if racism was not a factor they will would be. But let use not forget Rosewood and other black middle class towns that were destroyed by racism because a hand full of blacks accumulated millions.”
When you don’t know what you’re talking about, just make stuff up, yet, you accuse me of goalpost shifting? None of the businesses created by the individuals I mentioned were destroyed by Whites, they all died rich. The businesses that failed, did so for the same reasons any business fails. Weak capital structure, obsolescence, lack of interest on the part of the heirs, etc. A.G. Gaston’s business is still around. http://www.aggaston.com/
If the topic doesn’t interest you, you are not obliged to comment.
LikeLike
@ jefe
It is all about learning. I don’t have to agree with another person to learn from them.
LikeLike
@ gro jo
Thanks for the A.G. Gaston link.
LikeLike
@Gro Jo
“No doubt a sign of your lack of seriousness.”—It is actually a sign of my typing on my phone, but whatever.
“When you don’t know what you’re talking about, just make stuff up, yet, you accuse me of goalpost shifting?”—Well that would be the case except your ignorance started with a simple comment I made to Afrofem, which you felt offended by. So if you actually knew what I was talking about then you would have not found yourself switching goal post on an issue to begin with. I quoted from your source dear Try reading it thoroughly and not cherry picking what you like
“None of the businesses created by the individuals I mentioned were destroyed by Whites, they all died rich.”—Dying rich does not mean that their business were not met by racism and went under as a result of it.
“If the topic doesn’t interest you, you are not obliged to comment.”—Interest or not I am free to say as I please. Perhaps this wouldn’t have gotten this far if you would have taken your own advice.
LikeLike
And just to make some historical corrections.
“The hotel MLK was killed at belonged to a black multimillionaire by the name of A.G. Gaston”—False. The hotel MLK died at belonged to Walter Bailey.
“How about Jeremiah G Hamilton who sued Cornelius Vanderbilt and died in 1875 with a fortune of $2 million?”–Hamilton swindled most people out of their money and had not real “business” to speak of. “Hamilton was also a victim of the racism against African-Americans so pervasive during his time. During the New York City draft riots in 1863, white men seeking to lynch Hamilton broke into his house, but were turned away with only liquor, cigars, and an old suit by his wife Eliza after she said her husband was not home. Eliza Hamilton was white which made her marriage to Jeremiah taboo for the time.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremiah_Hamilton
Him having a white wife saved him in a lot of ways during that time, but the attempt to destroy him was in the works.
LikeLike
sharinalr, you’re so cute when you try to get out of the corner you painted yourself in. “The hotel MLK died at belonged to Walter Bailey.
http://www.nytimes.com/1988/07/07/obituaries/walter-bailey-lorraine-motel-owner-73.html” Thank you dear for the correction, I don’t know if you realize it, but you’ve identified another wealthy black man who died rich, giving the lie to your silly claim that “…it(their business) was always destroyed, because as your source says “racism trumped competition”. Admit it darling, you don’t know what you’re talking about. “Him having a white wife saved him in a lot of ways during that time, but the attempt to destroy him was in the works.” It also made him vulnerable to lynch mobs who took a deem view of such couplings. “Hamilton swindled most people out of their money and had not real “business” to speak of.” My, you’re such sweet, naive creature, you think that the rich get rich by playing by the rules! Balzac had it right when he wrote: “Behind every great fortune lies a great crime.” Hamilton was no saint and he did have a substantial business. Had he not been wiped out in one of the depressions, and his family had managed to hold on to the real estate he had accumulated in midtown Manhattan, they would be multi-billionaires. I don’t know were you got the absurd notion that I’m arguing that rich blacks were immune to racism, that’s your fantasy, not mine. That’s not the argument that Sowell, or my source made:
“Sowell’s works (Economics and Politics of Race (1993), Ethnic America(1981), Affirmative Action around the World (2004), and Race and Culture (1994). etc.) are laced with such illustrations, across several nations of the world, and across several centuries. Jews in Europe or the Middle East, for example, often harshly persecuted for centuries and denied a basis in agriculture, used their skills in urban economies to not only survive, but to ultimately end-run their enemies. Overseas Chinese are another such group, enduring harsh treatment from the colonial and modern era of Southeast Asia to the mining towns of 19th Century California, where rampaging white mobs did not give them “a Chinaman’s chance.”[54] Today their native born descendants as a group surpass the US white average on a number of counts, from income and education to IQ and academic test results. Japanese-Americans show a similar pattern despite such obstacles as racist land laws designed to freeze them out of farming occupations or the internment camps of WWII. Human capital in patterns reaching back centuries
In several works, Sowell traces the triumph of human capital and the human spirit across nations and historical periods. Industrious German farmers who took over wasteland scorned by others and turned it into productive farms did so not only in the United States, but in places as far afield as Russia and Argentina. Japanese farming skill and discipline repeated itself from the produce fields of California to Brazil. Italian stone and vineyard workers dominated certain related trades from the streets of New York to the fields of distant Argentina. None of this is by accident, but reflects human capital earned the hard way across the span of centuries, in multiple nations, across multiple generations. The importance of human capital—mass capital attained by ordinary men and women through generations of experience and sacrifice—is, for Sowell, much more important to human well-being than the theories of racial supremacists or utopian activists. Such capital is the foundation of human liberty and civilization. Some critics claim that the sharp, sometimes sarcastic tone found in some of Sowell’s works such as Inside American Education reflects his exasperation and frustration at the waste of human capital occurring in many minority, particularly black communities.[55]”
You accuse me of cherry picking, yet you elide the main theme of the post I linked to.
Stop sounding like a silly, silly, little child. If you come up with solid facts and arguments, we’ll continue this discussion, otherwise, it’s over and done with.
LikeLike
@ gro jo
Those were interesting census percentages. Thanks for including them.
When I mentioned “the bulk of Black urban workers”, I did not specify North, South, Midwest or West. While I agree with you about the benefits of Black urbanization, I still think the greatest advances for Black people had more to do with determined political action on the part of the Black masses, not their location.
“Capital sources, in my book, means investments to start businesses, so my question is legitimate. What do you mean by capital sources?”
You are correct about the meaning of “capital sources”. I added that when I shouldn’t have. In fact, Black people have never had access to capital sources in the same way that White Americans have since the founding of the country.
What frustrates me, gro jo, is Black people’s general lack of understanding about funding alternatives. Afro-Caribbeans have their susus, Latinos have their tandas, Asians their money pools and Native Americans have slivers of land and tribal development funds. A lot of Black people think of funding only in terms of banks and credit unions, who would rather drop their money in an erupting volcano than lend to Black businesses.
Some of that is due to anti-Black bias and some of it is due to a lack of financial literacy on the part of many Black people. Either way, I think Black people should learn from immigrant communities and pool our funds for business building instead of buying jewelry, cars and weaves. Talk about money down the drain.
The most concise article about Susus is not online anymore. It was written by Sheryl E. Huggins in Black Enterprise Magazine in 1997. An excerpt:
It seems that Black people will have to develop a lot more financial literacy, community and trust in each other to move beyond mere job holders who aspire to middle class status to business owners who build true wealth.
LikeLike
Afrofem, despite your somewhat hostile response, “Are you deflecting again?”, you’ve redeemed yourself with your latest and more characteristic comment. I’ve been fascinated by this “susu” or “associate”, that’s what my mother and her friends called it, revolving credit system for years. I just can’t see how to scale it to millions or even billions, it would be a powerful antipoverty tool if it could be done.
LikeLike
Maybe Sowell should have devoted his skills figuring out such schemes instead of singing for his supper!
LikeLike
@gro jo
“you’re so cute when you try to get out of the corner you painted yourself in.”—Except I never painted myself in a corner. You did in which you later used goal post shifting to try to get out of. Typical.
“I don’t know if you realize it, but you’ve identified another wealthy black man who died rich, giving the lie to your silly claim that “…it(their business) was always destroyed, because as your source says “racism trumped competition”–Wrong. Nothing indicates he died rich dear. You just assume he did because he once owned a hotel…ooops motel that MLK died in. But to the matter at hand..allow me to point out how racism trumped competition as per the quote from the source you used above. He primarily served black people not whites. He never went to competition with blacks for that to even occur. Yet again you are free to gloss over places like Rosewood that actually supports my claim and pretty much blows away your single examples you throw out some how fuel the false idea that the black middle class where not subject to what they built being destroyed because of racism.
“Admit it darling, you don’t know what you’re talking about”—I know what I am talking about enough to catch you in your tricks and redirect to the actual issue. You only wish I didn’t.
“I don’t know were you got the absurd notion that I’m arguing that rich blacks were immune to racism, that’s your fantasy, not mine.”—I didn’t say that was your argument, but here is a prime example of you goal post shifting so much that you actually have made it up your own behind. Hamilton was a prime example of white attempting to destroy what he built. So.. it looks like you happily pulled out someone to support my “silly claim”. Congrats.
The problem with the quote you pull of sowell is that it was thorough refuted by the post made here: https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/01/12/the-bootstrap-myth/comment-page-1/#comment-371813 and https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/01/12/the-bootstrap-myth/comment-page-1/#comment-371814
“You accuse me of cherry picking, yet you elide the main theme of the post I linked to.”—I didn’t elide anything. You did though when you quoted a single portion of it. The counter was the fact that you ignored the basic part of that post in which was quoted as a counter. You can call it bringing in the full perspective if you like.
Stop sounding like a silly, silly, little child. If you come up with solid facts and arguments, we’ll continue this discussion, otherwise, it’s over and done with.”—I’m the silly child yet you are whining and looking for simple things to argue about. tsk tsk tsk. I already came up with solid arguments and facts. You just don’t like them. That is your problem not mine. Wants some advice…..Grow up and admit when you f*up instead of trying to move goal posts to get yourself out of the pile of s**t you stepped in.
LikeLike
“He never went to competition with whites for that to even occur” correction
LikeLike
@ gro jo
“I just can’t see how to scale it to millions or even billions, it would be a powerful antipoverty tool if it could be done.”
To me, it has been a powerful anti-poverty tool———one that native born Black folks have been ignorant of——for generations. The beauty of the susu or tanda is their small scale. It is that small scale that builds networks of community and trust. I feel that those small interlocking networks of committed individuals not only raise funds for businesses and down payments for homes, they also help form an enduring economic power base. That base is sorely lacking in many Black communities, leaving Black people vulnerable to economic exploitation.
LikeLike
Sowell is intellectually dishonest. He uses his powers for evil. The world would have been better off if he had been an actual prostitute.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Afrofem, I don’t buy the small is beautiful ideology. A revolving credit scheme involving millions would go a long way in building infrastructure lacking in the lands where these schemes originated.
“Sowell is intellectually dishonest. He uses his powers for evil.” What ‘powers’ does he have? He is an intellectual who raised serious questions. You may not agree with his solutions, such as more policing of the Black population, and other such nonsense, but that doesn’t invalidate the questions he raises. Lack of seriousness and susceptibility to demagoguery is one, amply demonstrated by our own sharinalr’s contribution to this debate so far.
LikeLike
@gro jo
“Lack of seriousness and susceptibility to demagoguery is one, amply demonstrated by our own sharinalr’s contribution to this debate so far.”—Your not worth taking serious as you couldn’t seriously address the issues without switching goal posts. As to your “susceptibility to demagoguery” I think not and afrofem can attest to this as can many others who have asked my opinion on the state of the black community in the financial realm and otherwise. The issue you have here is I am calling a spade and spade.
LikeLike
@ gro jo
“A revolving credit scheme involving millions would go a long way in building infrastructure lacking in the lands where these schemes originated.”
Three problems with that argument:
There is already a proven model for building infrastructure. It’s called universal progressive taxation and public spending.
The countries that lack infrastructure (or have crumbling infrastructure, like the USA) are not short on available funds or popular support for those projects. The bottleneck is in the political sector who serve a tiny elite at the expense of the rest of the population. They divert or pocket the money needed to complete the projects because they don’t care about their countries, just themselves and their paymasters.
Money pools that go beyond a certain number (10 or more) tend to attract fraudsters, who take the money and run. Those people destroy the trust and community needed for these pools to work. I read about how the Koreans tried to scale up their money pools. Several were devastated by con artists who ran off with six figure hands (weekly or monthly allocations of collected funds). There is always someone who wants something for nothing.
LikeLike
“Afrofem
@ gro jo
“A revolving credit scheme involving millions would go a long way in building infrastructure lacking in the lands where these schemes originated.”
Three problems with that argument:
There is already a proven model for building infrastructure. It’s called universal progressive taxation and public spending.”
So, how do you explain the Flint water debacle in light of “universal progressive taxation and public spending”?” The connection from the taxpayer to their elected officials is so long and full of middle men that said officials often forget who they work for, leading to disasters like Flint, crumbling roads, bridges, etc. Your comments show that you are aware of the problem. A system where small groups contribute directly to funding a specific project would, in my opinion, lead to a more engaged citizenry. When you pay taxes, you have no idea, except a vague one, what it is you are paying for. A “susu” type funding of public projects has the virtue of identifying who got the money and what was supposed to be done with it.
The project would be identified, many small cells would contribute to cells above them, establishing a pyramid structure adequate to undertake said project. The higher groups being accountable to the lower rungs, that would reduce the temptation to steal since all the cells, from top to bottom, would operate on the same accountability principle you mentioned above: “* Don’t hesitate to inquire about the salary, employment and credit histories of prospective members.”
LikeLike
@ gro jo
You know as well as I do that Flint is Exhibit A for plutocratic rule, no accountability and regressive taxation policies.
“…establishing a pyramid structure adequate to undertake said project.”
They don’t call them “pyramid schemes” for nothing. LOL!
The temptation to steal is always there for some people. The more people involved and the more money involved, the greater the temptation. That seems to be human nature. Thieves at that level generally plan their crimes and run a cost/benefit analysis; if they feel they can get away with their crimes the benefits outweigh the costs.
LikeLike
“They don’t call them “pyramid schemes” for nothing. LOL!” Cute.
“You know as well as I do that Flint is Exhibit A for plutocratic rule, no accountability and regressive taxation policies.” Right, what’s being done about it? NOTHING!
“The temptation to steal is always there for some people. The more people involved and the more money involved, the greater the temptation. That seems to be human nature. Thieves at that level generally plan their crimes and run a cost/benefit analysis; if they feel they can get away with their crimes the benefits outweigh the costs.” And? Does that mean you don’t believe in the efficacy of the capacity “…to inquire about the salary, employment and credit histories of prospective members.” to keep theft to a minimum? How is the present situation better? No scheme is perfect.
LikeLike
@ gro jo
“No scheme is perfect.”
We are in total agreement about that.
LikeLike
[…] The Bootstrap Myth: If Jews or Asians or my grandfather can make it in America, anyone can! Blacks are just a bunch of layabout whiners. […]
LikeLike
Here’s a variant of the bootstrap argument that is stronger.
Germany was destroyed at the end of WWII. Many major cities, especially Dresden, were firebombed and turned to river to satisfy Allied bloodlust. (That said, the Western Allies were better than the Nazis, but it was very much a black and gray morality). Germany was robbed of 24% of its territory, and 15 million Germans were brutally expelled from their homes, where their families had lived for almost a millennium.
Germany was then divided for half a century, and flooded with Uitlanders and all sorts of worthless refugees. (1/4 of the population of Germany is currently Uitlanders, but hopefully they will rectify that soon, one way or another…)
Yet despite all that, Germany is a rich and powerful country today.
If Germany could recover from that, why can’t Haiti, which never lost 1/4 of their land or faced ethnic cleansings (except for the Whites, who were genocided by irrationally angry black mobs)?
LikeLike