Jews are on average about 3% to 5% black according to a genetic study by Priya Moorjani in 2011. Not just European Jews but even those in Turkey, Iran and Iraq, whether Sephardic or not. (She did not study Ethiopian Jews.)
This is less than Arabs who live in the Levant – Israel, Lebanon, Syria, etc, the part of the Middle East Jews came from. There people are generally 4% to 15% black. But it is more than most Southern Europeans (1% to 3% black) and Northern Europeans (0% to 1% black).
Here “black” means genes from sub-Saharan Africa not counting those that were brought to Europe 45,000 or more years ago when anatomically modern humans arrived (Homo sapiens sapiens as opposed to Neanderthals).
Moorjani used as her sample of black people those of Kenyan Bantu, South African Bantu, Mandenka, Mbuti Pygmy, Biaka Pygmy and Yoruba stock.
By this measure African Americans are on average about 79.4% black.
Percentage black:
- 10%+ Bedouin Arabs
- 9% Palestinians
- 8%
- 7%
- 6%
- 5% Italian Jews, Sephardic Jews (Greek, Turkey)
- 4% Druze, Syrian Jews, Iraqi Jews
- 3% Portugal, Ashkenazi Jews, Sardinians, Southern Italy, Iranian Jews
- 2% Spain
- 1% Northern Italy, Swiss French
- 0% Scotland, Sweden, Russia
Notice that Jews fall in a narrow band despite being spread out over a large region over thousands of years.
Moorjani left out Greeks since she could not get solid numbers on them.
Further, Moorjani was able to work out roughly when black genes flowed into these populations (she gives it in terms of generations ago. I give it in terms of 500-year blocks of history, assuming, as she does, a generation of 29 years):
Time of last measurable gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa:
- 3500 BC Northern Italy
- 3000 BC
- 2500 BC
- 2000 BC
- 1500 BC Iraqi Jews
- 1000 BC
- 0500 BC Sardinians, Syrian Jews, Iranian Jews, Sephardic Turkey Jews, Italian Jews
- 0001 AD Spain, Southern Italy, Ashkenazi Jews, Sephardic Greek Jews
- 0500 AD Portugal
- 1000 AD Palestinians, Bedouin Arabs
- 1500 AD African Americans
- 2000 AD
Roughly speaking, it seems that the main gene flows took place when North Africa and the region in question were under a common power: Roman, Moorish, Egyptian, etc.
This should not be surprising. Thousands of years from now geneticists might be able tell that genes flowed into Britain from sub-Saharan Africa some time about 2000 AD – just about the time of the British Empire. Something we see today as African and Caribbean immigrants in Britain.
The Roman Empire was no different. People travelled freely throughout the empire. For example, in the 300s one of the richest women of what is now called York, England grew up in North Africa. To Americans she looks black:
In addition, the Romans bought slaves from West Africa. Those people and their genes did not just simply disappear.
The reason Jews have less black blood than Arabs in the Levant today is because most left during Roman times and did not begin returning in large numbers till the 1900s.
Moorjani cannot tell whether the genes came mainly from East or West Africa. From her numbers it seems to be an even split.
Thanks to Herneith for pointing out Moorjani’s study to me.
See also:
Goapele’s Blackness index is substantially higher.
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I’m amazed that you couldn’t look at Maya Rudolph and see she was a sister. I knew she was black and didn’t know about the Jewish. Anyway, good post as usual.
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King:
OMG (or in my case “oh my superior imaginary being”)! Who is she? She is effin gorgeous, I love those eyebrows! A hot cat on a hot tin roof indeed!
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@proudchocolategirl:
can anyone explain how they do these DNA tests anyway? do they go around and take a sample of people from various regions and swab their cheeks and get a DNA admixture…how do they deteremine the overall genetic pattern of the group without testing the majority of people….??
I dunno, but I get a little irritated whenever stuff like this comes out because it completely erases converts to Judaism (although that’s a problematic phrase in itself).
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@ Hannu
She’s a new soul singer—African Father, Jewish Mom
See?
http://goapele.com/
http://photobucket.com/images/goapele/
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Hmmm…my maternal grandmother was Jewish. Frizzy/wavy black hair, blue eyes and white skin. My daughter has almost what is sometimes called a “Jew Fro”. But we’re unmistakably white.
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@King
Will you be my best man when I marry her?
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Haha! I’ll wouldn’t mind hold the ring for you right now. I’ll email you an unmarked safe deposit box where you can have it sent!
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It’s true. Jewishness is passed through the mother.
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@King
Totally of the topic, but if I can’t woo Rosario Dawson or Angela Basset, she’ll have to do.
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Culturally how? If she is not being taught the jewish religion, habits and so on… How is she jewish? Judaism is a religion, not just some social frame of reference.
Argh, I apologize, this is obviously a very multi-faceted and complicated issue… I’m secular myself, so people’s religious background is secondary to me. It just sounds baffling to me how different sects fight over souls or defend their religious boundries.
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According to Halacha law, Jewishness is passed through the mother’s side of the family, and while one can convert to Judaism, one isn’t seen as fully “Jewish” by many sects of Judaism. That said, in most modern American Jewish communities, the children of a woman who converted to Judaism would be considered Jew-ish. There are lots of nuances and loop-holes, but this is the basic rule of thumb.
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proudchocolate girl is right….for instance, my Israeli friends remind me that (to them) I’m Jewish, even though in a literal sense, I’m one quarter Jewish. But since my mother’s mother was Jewish, that makes my mother Jewish, me Jewish, and my children Jewish ( I’m female).
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Also, religion is only one aspect of Jewishness. Many Jews aren’t religious at all. My grandma wasn’t. She even put up a tree at Christmas!
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This is quite interesting, but not surprising. Now what I want to know is, is how black are North Africans?
Libyan Head of State, Muammar Gaddafi
http://tinyurl.com/449nafd
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Bulanikgirl-
As Zek said, this is all according to Halakah. I you want to self identify as a Jew, then there’s no reason why you can’t. Who’s to stop you? It’s my opinion that the worldwide Jewish community needs all the friends it can get right now. Anti-semitism is growing rapidly. Sometimes, I worry for my children, for what they may have to face. They identify very strongly as Jews. Good luck to you!
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I misspelled “if”.
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,i>”Now what I want to know is, is how black are North Africans?”
Wow, but there’s a LOT of different folk in North Africa
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@proudchocolategirl
Yes, my comment was directed at you, but more as a question, not trying to undermine your comment or personal experience. I apologize, judaism is very rare in Finland. It does baffle me how somebody is included (or excluded) in a religious group.
@zek j evets
Thanks for claryfying things up. That is something I wanted to know.
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What are Arabs? Are they a “race” or an ethnicity(like Hispanic)?Do they have a specific phenotype? I notice some of them look like my stereotypical concept of them:
like Qatar president, Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifa Al-Thani Amir
While others look more of what I consider “white”:
like Syrian president, Bashar Assad
I see North Africans, Levants, people from the Arabian peninsula, and even dark skin Sudanese people being called Arabs. I’ve heard Egypt, Sudan, Morocco, Lebanon, and Saudi Arabia all being referred to as “Arab countries”, but sometimes I wonder if it’s more-so culture than ancestry that ties all of these peoples together.
For instance, North African Berbers are often considered Arabs, but I have heard that they have been on the continent since prehistoric times. I have also heard that Berbers are simply a combinations of European and SSA. It gets confusing…
So again, I ask, what is an Arab? Right now I am thinking they are simply anybody conquered by Arabians during jihads shortly after Muhammad’s death. Am I right?
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Sorry, I don’t mean to derail about Arabs. Just curious
Relating to the post: Is 3-5% of another race in your ancestry really enough for it to show up in your phenotype? In one study, I’ve read that Black Jamaicans were about 3% Native American. I’m Jamaican. I don’t doubt the indigenous factor is there, but… I just don’t see it
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17908263
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Hmm…. I looked up Benedict de Spinoza on wikipedia because I’ve never heard of him. Quite a long article on him. It says he was a Sephardic Jew, born and raised in Holland. In the picture of him, his looks confirm that he was Sephardic.
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But aren’t arabs more like a social /linguistic/religious construct, rather than an ethnicity? How does one define the group you belong to? And how does one define ethnicity?
I’m getting confused.
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@Hannu L
1. relating to or characteristic of a human group having racial, religious, linguistic, and certain other traits in common
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ethnicity
I think it’s mostly about language. For instance, Persians (Iranians) are not considered Arab bc they speak Farsi instead of Arabic.
The United States government legally defines people who look like this(Qatari Prez) as “white”: http://listphobia.com/wp-content/uploads/QatarPresidentEmir.jpg
However, I believe most American citizens would disagree with that classification. If Arab is his ethnicity and not his race, then what race is he?
______
My feeble attempt to make this relate to the post…
Ashkenazi & Sephardic Jews “have roughly 30 percent European ancestry, with most of the rest from the Middle East”
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too many links in my last comment. I’ve thrown myself to the mods. Sigh… anyways
@proudchocolategirl
“arab is for anyone who comes from a region/country where arabic is the predominate language or has roots in an arab country”
-Yeah, it sounds just like Hispanic to me. Just switch Arabic with Spanish and Arab with Spain.
@Bulanikgirl
I thought Sean Paul was just Black for the longest. Lol I guess I nv really thought about the differences btwn black & mixed back then, when it comes to skin/hair. Nv bought into the idea of the 1 drop rule and it wasn’t until recently that I found out some ppl are still pretty adamant about it. In fact, I was confused for the longest as to why folks were calling Obama black.
Back to my point though. Even though I didn’t really follow the 1 drop rule it did influence my perception of “blackness.” The braids and Jamaican accent(nvm not all JAs are blk) were enough to fool me into believing Sean Paul was simply blk. Now I see he is undeniably mixed race. A quarter for each of the races you mentioned, as well Syrian.
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@Bulanikgirl
No. They may share the same ancestral home in the Middle East, but the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has helped to exacerbate the “differences” btwn Jews and Arabs(ignoring the technicalities of these terms for convenience). Most people think of them as being totally separate.
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@Proudchocolategirl
I doubt it. He grew up in Jamaica. They have no concept of a one drop rule there. I think mixed and light skin people like him are called “brownings.” W/o the braids his hair is actually pretty straight. Skip to 1:23. If he first started off looking like that, I wouldn’t have known he was part Black anything. Which makes sense considering he is 75% non-black. He’s a fourth Sephardi Jew btw, of Portugese descent.
I can’t be sure tho…
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@Bulankigirl
If we’re talking about looks, then yeah. They often look alike to me. The former White House Chief of Staff, Rahm Emmanuel, is a Jewish man that fits my stereotype of a Middle Easterner/Arab.
http://tinyurl.com/448vvgg
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I think Maya Rudolph’s father is Jewish. I always knew she was mixed.
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@Hannu L,
Arabs were an ethnic group that originated in the Arabian Peninsula (Saudi Arabia, Yemen, etc).
The Original Arabs spread their religion (Islam) and culture. Most people who call themselves Arabs today are simply Arabized.
In other words, they are NOT Arabs, but people who were conquered by Arabs and who’ve adopted Arabian culture, language and religion.
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Drake, Rashida Jones and Lisa Bonet are good examples of people with Jewish mothers who identify as Jews.
Natalie Portman’s mom is not Jewish, but a convert. Portman was born in Israel and raised Jewish. It’s ridiculous to suggest she’s not really Jewish when she had a thorough Jewish upbringing and considers herself such.
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@proudchocolategirl,
Sean Paul is considered black in Jamaica because he classifies himself as black. It’s similar to Colin Powell.
In Jamaica, people don’t really think of race, so he would be considered yellow/colored, but I am not certain that would make him non-black.
Despite his coloring, he’d likely still be considered black.
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@abagond
Roman historian Tacitus wrote that many of his time believed that the Jews “were a race of Ethiopian origin.”
The Bible classifies the Ethiopians & Jews together, “Are ye not as children of the Ethiopians unto me, O children of Israel? saith the Lord.” (Amos 9:7)
The E3b haplogroup has been observed in all Jewish groups world wide. It is considered to be the 2nd most prevelent haplogroup amoung the Jewish population.
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To the writer of these articles: Are you a black man? And if so, what is the reason for your apparent infatuation with white people and white women in particular?
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@Gray
The owner of this blog is a Filipino
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This is an interesting example. Ghaddafi, who happens to be the most active advocate of Panafricanism on the continent, has his own stance on the matter:
In his speeches, he sometimes speaks of Blacks in the first person:
http://www.algathafi.org/html-english/cat_02_04.htm
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@The Cynic:
Well, I’m Filipino and I was under the impression that abagond is not Filipino. However, I think it would be pretty cool if he was. 😉
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“I thought Sean Paul was just Black for the longest. Lol I guess I nv really thought about the differences btwn black & mixed back then,…”
It has only been recently that the “mulatto” concept has been revived on a popular level (I prefer the more modern-sounding “multiracial”). This is not surprising given that tens of thousands of people fitting this racial description have been born each year since the overturning of the interracial marriage bans. American culture is slowly becoming permeated by the influence of mixed people. Now we are even witnessing the emergence of a mulatto theology:
http://www.thefalcononline.com/article.php?id=7715
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Regarding Russians, they may not have detectable levels of specifically African genes in them, but they have LOTS of Mongol blood coursing through their veins. Most of the mixing that has taken place in Eurasia has been along an east-west axis.
Speaking of mixing and having been to the hasidic enclaves of Brooklyn a number of times, I think it would benefit both groups if a way could be found to encourage mixing among blacks and hasids who, after all, live side-by-side in places like Crown Heights.
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Lol! I think the Hassidim might be somewhat reluctant to embrace that idea.
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In America of course the majority of my fellow jews are not Black like me and tragically many of them embraced the ugly themes of white privledge and arrogance…
To often I am always educationing many while I seek to worship. It was really problematic during the Obama campaign with some of the ugly email chatter about Obama and Israel..I am observing the same nastiness now of late with the recent speech Obama gave about the middle east…
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Crown Heights Hasidim are unlikely to forget the riot there back in the 90’s, and generally speaking Hasidim are about as cloistered of a Jewish community as you can get these days. They don’t even marry other Jews from different sects! They don’t even consider someone like myself Jewish, merely because I eat shrimp and pepperoni pizza!
Honestly though, extremely religious sects like the Hasidic or Haredi Jews are hardly the place to look for mainstream Judaism. Most Jews are Reform or Conservative. Many are Reconstructionist (like myself) and a fair few are Orthodox.
Besides, White Jews are not untouched by racism, and even though our history is such that we should understand better than most why racism is wrong, still we are flawed and often engage in it like many others do. But such is life, and thankfully there are many example of great Jewish anti-racists that it always keeps me hopeful =)
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@Gray:
“To the writer of these articles: Are you a black man? And if so, what is the reason for your apparent infatuation with white people and white women in particular?”
Abagond infatuated with white women?! Whatever you’re smoking, it’s really potent. Please feel free to read some of the earlier posts. It’s pretty clear that Abagond idea of female beauty is black and not white. The fact that you would accuse him of such a thing shows that you are prejudiced against black men.
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wow this whole time i thought maya was white lol
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well like hispanic or something..
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Zek,
I respect your honesty regarding racism in some white jewish venues… What I often get from to many white jewish folks is denial, deflection and the usual references about Jesse, Al , Louis which have nothing to do with the issue of course…
Thanks
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Öööhh… Whats next? How black are catholics? Hindus? Protestants? Lutheran? Buddhists? New Age freaks??
Of course there are black jews. Any body been in Israel lately?? Go see yourself.
Yeah, jewishness passes from mom to kid. It is a cultural and religious thing. But so is islam too. And catholicism.
I think this is a bit silly.
How black are airplane pilots? Divers? Surfers? How black are comic book artists?
I mean, c’mon…
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@leigh204
Lol I just picked filipino bc it was the first thing to come to mind and it sounds to cool. Trolling the trolls can be pretty fun
@FG
I wasn’t thinking about mixed ppl bc they came into America’s consciousness. I started to think more about them after studying Latin American society & history. My unfortunate road to race obsession, ignited by my discovery of contemporary American racism and the destruction of my racial naivety, also had its part in my consciousness of mulattoes.
@Mel do you have a quote where Sean Paul refers to himself as black or do you just think that is how he sees himself?
I am sure mixed race ppl are not seen as being blk there. Of course, there are mixes who identify with 1 part of their ancestry all over the Western Hemisphere, but the US is the only society that historical has any concept of a 1-drop rule. JA has always had a mixed race category on their census. Here, just read this article from a J’can of Chinese descent. It was in a response to Kristof of the NYT, in his piece about JA being ahead of the US bc they elected a “white man”(half Syrian) into office in the 1980s. In the article, the author replies by saying, “what are talking about? Nearly all of a PMs have been brown or white!” Just google the names of the PMs. Many of them would be seen as ‘black’ to a lot of Americans.
http://jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20091004/focus/focus7.html
Another op-ed piece by a self-described mulatto Jamaican
http://jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20110210/letters/letters3.html
I’ve gotten way off-topic. *shrugs* guess I’ll stop here
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As a follow up you should do a post title “How White are Jews” i hear a lot of people say Jews are not white and its confusing to me. I was always under the impression that Ashkenazi Jews were predominantly of European descendant and therefore “white”
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“Yes, Cynic, the 1drop rule in the US is not universal.”
I would say that the one drop rule, stricly interpreted, is not universal in the US either. The multiracials who are very ambiguous in appearance (e.g. Mariah Carey) or pretty much white-looking (e.g Wentworth Miller) are rarely tagged as black. Even if their ancestry is fully known, they are considered to be mixed race or even white. What is distinctive about the US is that individuals obviously of a heavily mixed background but who display clear African physical features (such as Paula Patton or Terrence Howard) are referred to as black rather than mulatto (as they would be in Latin America).
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Not sure if one of the 88 previous comments states this but in the recording of ‘Loving You’, young Maya was present in the studio and in the end of the original version you can faintly hear Minnie Riperton singing her daugher’s name at the end of the song. Awww…
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In reading some of the comments I just want to clarify something, multiracial and mixed race are terms that define one multiple races, a hodpodge of sorts. Mulatto specifically refers to one born to black and white parentage. One who defines himself as mulatto can also be considered multiracial or mixed race but one who is multiracial or mixed race is not necessarily mulatto.
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@Y
Well, according to one study, “Ashkenazi & Sephardic Jews “have roughly 30 percent European ancestry, with most of the rest from the Middle East”(Wade).
I’m still wondering if anybody knows how “mixed” someone has to be in order for it to show up on your face. Around three percent sounds tiny to me. I was thinking maybe like a tenth of another population and your ‘other’ ancestry possibly starts to show…
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I thought Middle Easterners were classified as “white”/”Caucasian” as well…They may not be white in the Anglo sense but arent they “white ” nonetheless?!???
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I think that this is the problem with imagining some new ethnicity called “multi-racial.” It’s taking mixes of people from all different races, languages, backgrounds, colors and experiences, and trying to make them into a new “race” of sorts. But if that were really so easy, the entire world would be seeing themselves as one race, at this point.
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@ proudchocolategirl – I like your blog page.:)
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Looking back at my comments I believe I used the words mulatto, multi-racial, bi-racial, and mixed appropriately. Except here,
“I wasn’t thinking about mixed ppl bc they came into America’s consciousness.”
Mixed=mulatto
@King
But if that were really so easy, the entire world would be seeing themselves as one race, at this point.
I don’t get this. Most people, at least in America, are predominately one race. It makes sense for them to see themselves as mono-racial when their own ancestry favors one side more than another(51%+). For half-halves and a quarter here an eighth there types, it makes less sense to choose one race over the other. However, I can understand some reasons why a mixed person(someone who is not predominantly mono-racial in ancestry) would do that.
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It would seem that truly racially ambiguous people are already classified as multi-racial, due to the fact that no one can say what they are, by simply looking at them. Mixed people who choose to be associated with their Black cultural ancestry are already seen by most Americans to be “light-skinned” Black people. I would guess that the only group in the multi mix who are unhappy with their current designation would be mixed people who want to be considered White.
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Abagond:
You didn’t know that Minnie Ripperton was Maya Rudolph’s mother? Minnie Ripperton birthed a daughter and son from her hippie, jewish husband whose name escapes me right now. The sista left this earth way too soon, she was ahead of her time.
Tyrone
Star Aquarius
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@King
I was not talking about what other people classify them as. I was discussing how they identify themselves and what they relate to.
And not all of them want be considered white(is that worse than wanting to be seen as blk?). Some just want to be seen as what they are. Mixed. I hope that you are not insinuating something is wrong with that?
(they=mixed ppl in general)
And I still don’t get the “most of the world would be seeing themselves as multi-racial comment”. Why would most ppl do that when most are predominantly one race?
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Not at all. Any suggestion that there was any racial judgement implied would be the most puerile eisegesis. Where do you get these assumptions?
Where did I say that “most of the world would be seeing themselves as multiracial?” Did I actually say that sentence?
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Greg,
You’re welcome. I don’t think there’s anything to be gained from denying obvious instances of Jews acting prejudiced or bigoted. In fact, it only furthers the divide between Jews and Black people when historically our communities have been so close due to a common interest of equal protection under the law in America.
That said though. I do often wish the Black community would tell Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and especially Louis Farrakhan to shut the eff up and sit down when they start mouthing off about Jews. Seriously, it only makes them (and by unfortunate extension the Black community) look ridiculously anti-Semitic.
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@King
What did I assume from your comment?
@Zek
Most black people don’t pay attention to Sharpton, Jackson, or Farrakkan. I’m not even aware of any anti-semetic comments that Jackson or Sharton have made. In fact, I just went to the nearest two black people and asked them if they knew who Farakkan is. Both said no. How can we tell them to shut up if we don’t know what they are saying?
@Y
I honestly don’t know what race Middle Easterners are. I guess they’re white. *shrugs*
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“I think that this is the problem with imagining some new ethnicity called “multi-racial.” It’s taking mixes of people from all different races, languages, backgrounds, colors and experiences, and trying to make them into a new “race” of sorts. But if that were really so easy, the entire world would be seeing themselves as one race, at this point.”
I don’t think the goal of mixed-identified people is to create a “race” in the American sense, i.e. an endogomous group based on physical appearance possessing shared cultural characteristics. It’s more about breaking down such boundaries through embrace of multiple racial heritages.
True, there are many different types of mixed people. I think many who identify as multiracial perceive commonalities with their counterparts of a different ancestral background (e.g. black-white versus Asian-white mixes) but nevertheless tend to feel closer to individuals of their particular racial composition.
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“What did I assume from your comment?
I think that you assumed an imaginary sentence. Am I wrong?
@ FG
Yes, that makes sense. I believe that as more mixing occurs (and this is inevitable) the more such barriers will be broken down. The concept of “pure races” will become even more difficult to prop up.
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@King
I think that you assumed an imaginary sentence. Am I wrong?
Yes, you are. Let’s go backwards for a sec.
King:“Where did I say that “most of the world would be seeing themselves as multiracial?” Did I actually say that sentence?”
Me:“And I still don’t get the “most of the world would be seeing themselves as multi-racial comment”. And here goes the comment I was referring to…
King:But if that were really so easy, the entire world would be seeing themselves as one race, at this point.
I didn’t understand what you meant by that, so I asked you to explain it. I didn’t assume anything. All I did was ask for clarification. I thought it was clear that, that was the quote I was referring to. Did you not know I was referring to that statement? Did you want me to copy, paste, italicize, and quote you verbatim? This isn’t the 1st time I’ve summed up a quote…
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How does the term “one race” translate into “multiracial” – a word that means the exact opposite?
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Ah… I think i see what you meant. You meant that “Multiracial” would be the name of the one race?
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@King
First, let’s remember that I started off my reply to that comment by saying, “I don’t get this” and that I asked you to explain that comment multiple times.
Your comment in full:
I think that this is the problem with imagining some new ethnicity called “multi-racial.” It’s taking mixes of people from all different races, languages, backgrounds, colors and experiences, and trying to make them into a new “race” of sorts. But if that were really so easy, the entire world would be seeing themselves as one race, at this point.
“imagining some new ethnicity called ‘multi-racial’.”
-When you say this, you make out multi-racial to be a single entity.
“and trying to make them into a new ‘race’ of sorts.”
-this statement melts away any contradiction btwn “multi-racial” and “one race.” They are no longer opposites.
“But if that were really so easy, the entire world would be seeing themselves as one race, at this point”
-If you are not talking about “multi-racial” at the point, then what do you mean by “one race.” You didn’t mention anything else in your comment that could be inferred as that single race the entire world is supposed to see themselves as.
After this thought process, let’s say I did come to the wrong conclusion by “assuming” that “one race” you were speaking of was multi-racial. Why didn’t you just correct me from the jump? This entire time all I’ve been doing is simply asking you what you meant by that comment.
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@King
Plz excuse all of the typos and grammatical errors.
If you were not referring to “multi-racial” when you said “one race”, what did you mean by that? What imaginary sentence did I “assume”? My reading comprehension skills must be super f*cked up bc I still don’t see how I read that wrong.
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No worries, Cynic
What I was trying to say was that “multi-racial” people don’t only represent mulatto miscegenation, but represent cultures mixed from all over the world. Therefore, to bring them all into one racial fold was about as challenging as bringing all of the races of the world together into a single race.
It was just a way of saying that the ethno/cultural differences that we see around the world are just as pronounced when they are encountered in mixed people as they are in non-mixed.
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Zev,
I hope white jews would also tell Abe Foxman ( ADL) and others to STFU as well..Their ignorance and need to demonized Black folks does not help either…
As others have noted here already majority of Black Folks are not interested in the religion of whites especially after you are a Black person on the end of various n-words including the yiddish version…
What continues to strain the relations between Blacks and White jews is the nature of how to many white jews have adopted the negative racial legacy of white america from white privledge to tragically white racism..
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@FG Well said…
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@ Zek
Most black folks couldn’t give two squirts of piss about Farrakhan and “The Nation of Stockholm Syndrome.” And his sake, he’s damn lucky too. Given the fact the the N.O.I. is “for” black folks, but yet they (generally) remain silent over the fact that non-Islamic black Africans are still being subjugated, slaughtered, and slandered by Muslim Arabs. Both black and (mainly) white ones.
As for Jackson. We didn’t vote for him when he ran for president, so we don’t really care about him. Even the older generation looks at him oddly because of his personal life.
As for Sharpton, most black folks forget that he’s still alive, as all he’s mainly done in the past is talk and theorize. (Although out of the three, he’s the most respectable.)
@ The Cynic
Middle Easterners are called “Caucasians.” A word that is always synonymous with “being white”. It’s a way a certain group gets to claim their greatness of the past was because of them “being white”. It’s a pretty handy label because this particular one also allows that certain group to remind people how they’re not white, when they do something bad. Middle Easterner’s (not to mention Hindus, Ethiopians, and other East Africans) whiteness is constantly granted and revoked, depending on the situation.
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Greg,
I know my name is only three letters long, but it ain’t THAT hard to spell. Call me Zek, okay? ; )
As for Abraham Foxman, I’m not aware of any racist ish he’s done specifically to Black people. Could you link something? Because all I’m aware of is: his inability to recognize the Armenian genocide AS A GENOCIDE, and his stance regarding the Park51 Islamic center (which he opposes, for whatever lame reason). Both of those are good enough reasons to me, but they don’t necessarily concern primarily Black people.
As others have noted here already majority of Black Folks are not interested in the religion of whites
Your comment seems to be slightly ignorant of the fact that the ADL has done a survey and concluded that roughly 36% of Black people hold anti-Semitic beliefs. While that isn’t a majority, it is a significant minority and troubles me just as much as Richard Herrnstein’s work on The Bell Curve does.
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@ Franklin and The Cynic:
Whether or not black people pay attention to Sharpton, Farrakhan and Jackson, they are still regarded as mouthpieces of the black community by the media, and thus by extension the white community.
As someone observing from a foreign country, my perception was that the three of them are much more influential than you guys describe. Your perceptions are more likely to be accurate than mine, but I think it’s important to understand what they are saying, because anything one of them says on an issue is likely to be perceived as “what the black community thinks”. So you might need to tell them to shut their pie holes sometimes.
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Take a look at Jenna Wolfe of NBC. Jewish, and family was from Jamaica, how far back….? She is a sexy women for sure and some time I think I see some African roots in her face.
Also, from what I can pick up she likes hanging around with black jocks.
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Zek,
Abe Foxeman’s subjective survey about Black Americans is nonsense nor even worthy of being site as some authority on anything about Black Americans…Abe’s survey is offensive and is exactly the kind of fictional garbage that creates tension between Black and white jews..
Abe’s organization also engages in profiling Black professors and intellectuals as well..BTW I offer opinions in chat forums I don’t do links etc..Please use google for that.
My premise remains the same most Black Americans are not concerned with the religion of a white person especially when a Black person is on the end of a racist encounter …
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Zek,
Abe Foxeman’s subjective survey about Black Americans is nonsense nor even worthy of being site as some authority on anything about Black Americans…Abe’s survey is offensive and is exactly the kind of fictional garbage that creates tension between Black and white jews. Aryan groups also have surveys about Black Americans!!
Abe’s organization also engages in profiling Black professors and intellectuals as well.. Abe probably would have spied on MLK and call him names…BTW I offer opinions in chat forums I don’t do links etc..Please use google for that.
My premise remains the same most Black Americans are not concerned with the religion of a white person especially when a Black person is on the end of a racist encounter …
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Greg,
Well, I can’t take your arguments seriously unless you have some kind of evidence to back them up. So… yeah. If you want to be believed, then man up and prove your claims, because otherwise trying to demonize the ADL and Abraham Foxman with spurious opinions is going to make you sound ridiculous.
By the by, calling the ADL survey “subjective” or “nonsense” or “fictional garbage” doesn’t change the results. A significant minority of Black people hold strong anti-Semitic beliefs, and — just like with racism among Jews — talking about it is more helpful and productive than pretending it doesn’t exist.
And this disproves your ORIGINAL premise, which was that Black people don’t care what religion a White person is (despite the fact that not all Jews are White).
But so it goes.
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@Eurasian Sensation–
Whether or not black people pay attention to Sharpton, Farrakhan and Jackson, they are still regarded as mouthpieces of the black community by the media, and thus by extension the white community.
I think that many Blacks here DO listen to these 3, but not everything they say. I think a lot depends on the age and socioeconomic class. These men are also older men. They did their part. I don’t know about any young black nationally known “leaders.”
Many of the younger black people are more influenced by Hip Hop big names like Jay Z, Snoop Dog, Common, Beyonce, Rihanna, Fifty Cent, LL Cool J, Lil Wayne, Sean Coombs, and public icons like that. Probably if Fifty Cent or Jay Z ran for Congress or the Presidency, they would get a lot more support and votes from the young, black, urban crowd than Sharpton, Farrakhan and Jesse Jackson ever would. Consider that an omen for the future of the young, urban crowd.
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I remember when the remains of “Ivory bangle lady” were first found. There was all this conjecture about her being ancient Anglo-Saxon royalty or the wife or daughter of some high ranking Roman. Now that we’ve discovered she’s Black, people are throwing around conjecture that she was probably just a favored sex slave. My, how her stock has fallen since her race has been revealed; from ancient Anglo-Saxon princess to…just a really, really, REALLY good lay. Amazing…
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Zev,
SO your opinons are proof of what? Where is your evidence?? Abe Foxman’s survey is as worthless as a pulp fiction….Your willingness to accept his survey reveals your integrity on this issue.
Your posts reveal a shallow defensive posturing about Black and Jewish relations especially after I outted the yiddish n-word in this forum..Deal with it stop demonizing the WASPS when many white jews are as racist…Any basic google search will reveal the nonsense of Abe’s self serving survey which makes for a good fundraiser in too many jewish venues..
You have yet to provide any proofs, links or any documented rebuttables to my premise which despite your cheerleading and pr spinning for Abe Foxman does not change my inference that Black folks don’t care about the religion of whites even those who sling the n-word around in yiddish…
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“Cynic says
In one study, I’ve read that Black Jamaicans were about 3% Native American. I’m Jamaican. I don’t doubt the indigenous factor is there, but… I just don’t see it”
Linda says,
My mothers family are Jamaican Maroons (came out of the mountains in early 1900’s) and they say that we are mixed African and Taino (Arawak) Indians from when the Spanish occupied the island.
As for a look, I don’t know which features belong to which group…some members of my family do have a certain “look” where you can see that there is something else based on their hair (Asian-like wavy)… Because of their hair, my brothers were sometimes teased and called “coolies” … but which feature is predominately considered “Coramantee” African vs Native Indian, don’t know.
The Miskito Indians are a good group to look at, they are mixed African and Native Central American Indians
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/picture_gallery/05/americas_getting_food_to_miskito_indians/html/3.stm
or the Kalinago (Carib) tribe of the island Dominica
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7529143.stm
the video gives a good overview
If you were to see any of them in the US, you would just assume they are black, as defined in the US, because of their skin colour.
The Kalinago people look similar to my mothers side of family but like I said, not sure which specific features (Taino) may have been genetically passed on that most people would assume to ethnically African…
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“wow…u didn’t know maya rudolph was black…???…wow…
u can tell ildi silva, but not maya rudolph?”
I personally consider both these ladies multiracial given their very diverse ancestries. Interestingly, I believe Ildi (the
Brazilian) identifies as black and Maya (the American) as mixed/multiracial.
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Black Americans don’t tell Sharpton, Jackson and Farrakhan (who’s half -Jamaican/ half St. Kittian btw) to shut up no more than whites tell Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck and the ignorant horde at Fox News to shut up.
Part of the problem is that due to the belief by non-blacks that blacks are collective individuals–one represents all, these guys are believed to be mouthpieces for black American, whereas Limbaugh, Beck and Hannity are not seen as mouthpieces for whites who are individuals.
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@Eurasian Sensation
So you might need to tell them to shut their pie holes sometimes.
Too bad I don’t know any of those dudes personally. Instead of me writing letters to strangers about their alleged anti-Semitism, how about the non-black groups grow some extra brain cells and realize three people can’t speak for forty million.
@Zek You keep bringing up that dumb ADL survey. I agree with Greg Thrasher. It does sound like subjective nonsense & fictional garbage. I’ve NEVER heard a black person utter an anti-semitic comment/slur in my life. Why would I trust some dumb survey(which could biased) over my everyday life? There is no significant minority of black anti-semites.
@King OK
@Linda That’s interesting. I remember reading about the Maroons who mixed in with the Tainos a little. I wonder what year they perished on the island.
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Cynic says
“I remember reading about the Maroons who mixed in with the Tainos a little. I wonder what year they perished on the island”
Linda,
The Tainos intermixed with the Africans, so it can be said that the Tainos as a “pure” race of people, were bred out of existance over a period of time…
The Spanish did not kill off the Taino Indians in Jamaica before actual settlement, this is a historically false statement, which needs to be corrected in the history books.
They murdered a great number of Tainos and the others went into the mountains or left the island all together, that’s why the Spanish census showed a small number of Tainos on the island, because you can’t count what you can’t see…the Tainos were not dead, they had already moved into the mountains.
The Tainos that did not runaway were enslaved, and the Spanish also brought Africans to the island. When the British invaded in 1655, the Spanish freed the slaves and armed the Taino and Africans to help fight the British.
After the war, the Spanish left to Cuba or Hispaniola, and the Taino and Africans both went into the Mountains where a Taino establishment already existed…These people were the original Maroons.
Growing up, it was hard to tell what was fact or fiction because my grandparents always acted as if our “bush” relatives were an embarrassment and backwards, so their words could not be trusted, but I think there is truth to the stories…Henry Gates needs to be put on the DNA job.
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Greg,
Again? Is it really THAT hard to misspell a three letter name? Really? For real? … For really real?? How can I take you seriously when you can’t even spell my name to make a comment! Haha ; )
But honestly, I gave you evidence. Legitimate, verifiable, peer-reviewed scientifically gathered evidence. And you have… nothing. So who’s the one making opinions? And I find it funny that as soon as I bring up this point, suddenly you’re flipping mental gymnastics to try and make it seem like I haven’t provided any proof! It’d be funny if it weren’t so pathetic.
Which brings us back to the FACTS of the matter. A significant minority of Black people in America hold strong anti-Semitic beliefs. (Which is funny to me when you consider that many Jews aren’t White.) And just because — I’m looking at you Cynic — you haven’t PERSONALLY seen this, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, or doesn’t happen.
And as, y’know, a Jewish person, with Jewish friends, Jewish family, from a Jewish community, and as someone who studies these kinds of things I can tell you that it does.
If you can’t deal with it, no skin off my back. But it does make you seem as downright ignorant and completely ridiculous as the racists you decry.
P.S. Here’s the link to the presentations of findings from the study at the ADL website, in case you’re actually interested in serious conversation about this issue:
http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASUS_12/4109_12.htm
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Greg,
P.P.S. I couldn’t help but notice a hypocrisy you made during our exchange here.
First you said, BTW I offer opinions in chat forums I don’t do links etc..Please use google for that.
But then you said, You have yet to provide any proofs, links or any documented rebuttables to my premise
Hahaha! First of all, you ADMIT that you only make opinions, and don’t bother with troublesome things like “facts” or “truth”, or “reality” as it seems.
Second of all, I think it’s hilarious that you’d get on me to provide evidence (especially since I already had) when you yourself refuse to do so because you feel it’s beneath in a “chat forum”!
Honestly dude, if you really care about fostering peace and brotherhood between others, specifically the Black and Jewish communities, then you need to acknowledge two elephants in the room — White Jewish racism, and Black anti-Semitism.
Anyhoo, if you have any further questions or require me to provide more evidence to what I’ve said here, then I have only one thing to say.
Please use Google for that.
And have a nice day =P
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Both exist
Both are absolutely ridiculous
Both need to end ASAP
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Interesting.
Most of this isn’t too surprising to me.
I will note how wildly at odds her work and her and your analysis are with zek’s long maintained idiotic leftist meme that race is only a social construct, and has no genetic reality.
Yeah right. Explain this zek.
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@Ze
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The Cynic–
Partly right. It’s a bit complicated.
Iran was conquered fair shortly after Muhammad’s death but they’re not Arabs. Neither are the Kurds in Iraq. They’re both in the indo-european division of Caucasians. The inner core historically and still today of Arabs are non Jewish semitic peoples whose ancestors have spoken Arabic for a long time as their primary language. N. Africans have mostly Berber and other non Semitic Caucasian ancestry, though also a good deal of Semitic Arab blood, who at first were the rulers on top, at least on the male lineage. N. Africans who speak Arabic as their primary language are considered Arabs too, but somewhat less so than Saudis, the rest of the Arabian peninsula states, Syrians, Palestinians and so on.
Note that Lebanese and Palestinian Christians are considered Arabs by Arabs too.
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The Cynic—
3% is pretty tiny. But it will depend somewhat on the individual. That is at that level sometimes it will be apparent but mostly it won’t. Genetic inheritances is all about who your ancestors are, but there’s a genetic roulette wheel that goes on each time an egg is inseminated, as to which ancestors genes get represented in the young’n.
As well it will depend on how different the typical facial appearances of in this case blacks and middle eastern and other origin groups are. A level, say 10% black blood that will often be apparent when mixed with German or English blood, won’t be apparent at all among South Indians.
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@Zek
And just because — I’m looking at you Cynic — you haven’t PERSONALLY seen this, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, or doesn’t happen.
-When did I say it doesn’t exist? Everything exists. I don’t deny that. All I am saying is that my personal experience shows other-wise. There is no significant anti-semitic black anything. When I start hearing about blacks physically attacking Jews, when I hear black radio stations making anti-Jewish remarks, when I see anti-Semitism in black dominated media, or when I read stories about blacks discriminating against Jews, then I’ll start believing a “significant” minority of us are anti-semites. Until then, that ADL survey means nothing.
“Legitimate, verifiable, peer-reviewed scientifically gathered evidence”
-We’re talking about some dumb ADL survey, not the discovery of intelligent life in outer space.
@Linda Yeah, a lot of interesting stuff there. I have suggested about post about Jamaican Maroons. Hopefully, Abagond takes notice.
@Abagond
Can you delete my last accident of a comment.
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Cynic,
When I start hearing about blacks physically attacking Jews, when I hear black radio stations making anti-Jewish remarks, when I see anti-Semitism in black dominated media, or when I read stories about blacks discriminating against Jews, then I’ll start believing a “significant” minority of us are anti-semites. Until then, that ADL survey means nothing.
So you actually agree with my take on your reaction, that unless you’ve experienced something then it doesn’t really exist? Am I right in making that conclusion? Because your comment doesn’t really seem to say much else.
And you’ve yet to actually show me why the ADL survey proves nothing. As opposed to just remarking on how dumb it is.
Doug,
Explain this zek.
Well, I would, except I already have. To you. Many times. Over and over again.
You were unfortunately unable to comprehend reality or science. But you did make up some nice conspiracy theories ; )
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King,
Both exist
Both are absolutely ridiculous
Both need to end ASAP
Damn. Straight.
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Oh boy…
Doug1 and his incredible mastery when it comes to the denial of contradictory evidence is back? Armed with his “Anti-Learning Tin Foil Hat of Justice” and famous “Squid Ink Dismissal Dispenser”, what sort of intellectual shenanagins will he get into now? Lets watch and see!
(*rests chin on palms*)
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zek–
This is completely divorced from reality.
Race is not merely a social construct. The one drop rule for being black pretty much is that though. Otherwise the social construction of racial classification is heavily based on ancestry and genes, which are a biological reality.
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@Zek
So you actually agree with my take on your reaction, that unless you’ve experienced something then it doesn’t really exist?
-Nope. All I’m saying is that personal experience shouldn’t be thrown out the window unless you’re dealing with hard science. Your acting as if the ADL did a neuroscience study using MRIs to test for black prejudice against Jews. We’re talking about societal feelings/thoughts, not the study of microorganisms. One subject is clearly easier to judge based off observation alone. I don’t need surveys to tell me about the sector of society I live in. If an opinion poll found that only 34% of black people were Christian/Democrat or that the same percentage of blacks held homophobic beliefs, I would instantly throw the poll away as a joke. In some circumstances, personal experience is enough.
@King & Proudchocolategirl
“Both exist”, “sure there are some blacks who are anti-semites”
-How many Black anti-Semites do you know personally? If you had to judge the pervasiveness of anti-Semitism w/in the black community using personal real life experience alone, would you say the BC is significantly anti-semitic? Now take those same questions, but switch out Jewish w/ white. Would you say their is a significant amount of blacks who are prejudiced and/or have hate against whites?
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Cynic,
I don’t need surveys to tell me about the sector of society I live in.
Haha, okay, so if evidence contradicts your lived experienced, then why don’t you go read it for yourself (I linked it above) and tell me why it’s wrong. Frankly the survey is compelling evidence on it’s own merits (again, read the study) but when you couple that with the many prominent Black leaders who have said/say/believe/believed anti-Semitic things, I think you’d be hard pressed NOT to notice that a significant minority of Black people hold strongly anti-Semitic beliefs.
And that last bit is important. Not all Black people. Not most Black people. Definitely not the majority of Black. But many. 35%. Around a third. Would you say it’s fair to point out that the NOI, the Black Israelites, and people who still listen to Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and others constitute a significant minority of Black people? Because I would, and I’m not the only one.
But in the end, this going around in circles over elephants in the room when there are Mastadons rampaging outside seems pretty lame. Bigotry exists, and denying it amongst ourselves only makes it that much harder to deal with it amongst those who like to pretend racism ended when Obama was elected.
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Zek,
You offered me a link from ADL …lol,lol,lol..How objective is that??
Now you have retreated to “A significant minority of Black people in America hold strong anti-Semitic beliefs’ which BTW is more fiction and subjective inferences on your part.
I have rejected your theme that Black Americans are anti-Semitic yet you continue to push this fictional ADL survey as some foundational truth about the relations between Black and White Jews..
The majority of jewish people are white as such to many reflect the privledge of white america including a ugly contempt for Black Americans..The ADL under Abe Foxman has not been a good ambassador betweem both groups..
Deal with this truth instead of making excuses
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Zev,
The only denial I have observed on this issue is yours..More importantly your continued insertion of a flawed and bias driven survey( not even a study or a survey designed by a 3rd party) reveals your inability to confront the raw truth about white jewish racism towards Black Americans which as I have noted is driven not by religion but by many jewish people proud of being “white”
Clearly there is a significant percentage of white jewish americans who hold racist views about Black Americans even Black Americans who are jewish!!
The yiddish n-word is an embrassment yet it remains a fixture in to many jewish housholds and venues..Deal with this truth and stop making emotional deflective excuses by offering up Abe’s worthless survey..
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@ Cynic:
To be fair, most of the anti-semites that I’ve met personally are non-Black europeans—Italians, French, and English. However, I have bumped into quite a few Black anti-semites on the web (so that’s unverifiable). As for Jesse Jackson, I know about his Hymie town remark, but I can’t verify that he’s been anti-semitic on other occasions.
However, personal experience is almost meaningless. They can vary way too much, based on too many factors. For example, between New York and LA, there is a big difference in racial attitudes. There is a much larger, and more visible Jewish population in New York.
I’d say that I couldn’t trust a single survey alone, but if there are multiple surveys that show anti semitism among Blacks and substantially fewer making the opposite case, then I’d be inclined to believe it.
As for Blacks who hate Whites… you might have to define that. I would probably use more words like mistrust, fear, suspicious, and paranoid, in most cases. Naturally, feeling that way about ALL Whites, based on their skin color, is ignorant. Nevertheless, there are SOME Blacks who truly do hate Whites, but not the majority is my guess.
But again, this is only going on personal experience. How many Black people live in the United States? How many of them do I know personally? So, what percentage of that population do my personal contacts represent?
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Oh Greg,
Apparently I really got under your skin when I flouted your hypocrisy and lack of argument, evidence, or even coherence.
Notice I haven’t denied ANYTHING about White Jewish racism. But you have yet to prove anything about Abraham Foxman or the ADL that would give… well, anyone reason to doubt their conclusions with regard to Black anti-Semitism, or the PEER-REVIEWED STUDY that has been conducted regularly since the 1960’s to measure anti-Semitism in America amongst all groups of people.
In fact, quite the opposite, the historical ties between the ADL and the Black community at large, while tumultuous are actually quite good. Why? Because the ADL doesn’t just fight anti-Semitism, but all forms of prejudice by and large. Particularly race.
Yet when confronted with these realities you poorly attempt to flip the script and talk about Yiddish slurs, and White Jewish racism (which no one has denied, in case you’ve forgotten) while ignoring the fact that White Jewish racism does not, in some magical way, make Black anti-Semitism okay.
I know, I know, maybe in your personal fantasyland it’s perfectly acceptable to respond to racism with more prejudice, but in the Real World hatred only begets hatred. You need to use your eyes and actually see what’s going on, instead of getting angry that I opened the shutters in your darkened room.
Again, you provide nice, empty indignation but make no actual arguments yourself. You’re like an old woman shaking her cane at some kids playing across the street. Feeble.
But by all means, if you think you’re so right and I so wrong, then I dare you — no, I challenge you to PROVE IT. Instead of wasting our time with more lameduck responses.
Or do you not bother with real arguments in chat forums? Hahaha =P
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@King
Thank you. Your comment was exactly what I thought I would hear bc it mimics my personal experiences. I too have never witnessed any significant amount of antisemitism among blacks in my personal/REAL life. I don’t agree with you that those experiences are meaningless though. It is my belief that our experiences are similar bc they reflect reality.
As for Blacks who hate Whites… you might have to define that.
-I also asked about blacks who are prejudice, but not necessarily racist, against whites.
I have bumped into quite a few Black anti-semites on the web (so that’s unverifiable).
-Yeah, I purposefully made sure to ask you about your real life experiences bc all the web isn’t a good source bc of…
1)anonymity(for all we kno those blacks could be whites)
2)trolls
3)sample bias(different types of ppl tend to congregate to different parts of the web)
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@King
“For example, between New York and LA, there is a big difference in racial attitudes. There is a much larger, and more visible Jewish population in New York.”
Don’t think geographic matter much. Most blacks don’t live around significant Jewish populations. Also, I believe Zek is speaking of black Americans in general. Saying blacks are anti-semitic in NY and then expanding that attitude to the black American population in general, is like taking white racism in Canada and then extending that to “white” countries in the rest of the world.
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Zek,
Keep at it one day you will even convince yourself your words matter but not here nor with me …Let’s deal now with your fiction about providing me and this site with massive proof of anti-semitic attitudes in the Black community..
1. You have posted ONE link which is a self serving propaganda from ADL the same organization that created marginal survey about Black Americans!!
2. The ADL has no legacy or historical relationship with Black America. The majority of Black folks have never heard of the ADL nor care about it’s myoptic agenda
3.You linked the flawed reasoning that White Jewish Racism and Black Anti-semitic views only after I posted about the yiddish n-word in to many white jewish venues..It was your shallow but failed effort to deflect and make some fasle equivalency excuse..That only you believe..lol,lol,lol
In truth what has taken place on this forum is your failed efforts to make any sense about the real relationships between Black folks and many White jews..You thought your shallow comments would go unnoticed..More importantly your obsession with my profound comments have made you more desparate and full of anger.
Sorry but we now live in the Obama era and no longer with the tire narrative that WASP”S are the only racist whites n America have any merit..
As Cynic and King have pointed out no doubt there is insignificant percentages of Black racism/Black Anti-Semitism but people like YOU who that seek to deposit this twisted dogma and propaganda ( Abe’s ADL Survey) yet again at demonizing Black folks simply have no currency anymore..I will as a PSA continue to crush your ignorance with regard to this topic..
Oh yeah…SHALOM
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Greg,
Shalom? Haha, okay. Should I start calling you “brotha” now? Because we all knows Black people and Jewish people talk EXACTLY like a stereotype. But don’t mind me if I’m not giving you any dap for your inability to string together a coherent comment, far beyond misspellings and now into actual randomness such as “Sorry but we now live in the Obama era and no longer with the tire narrative that WASP”S are the only racist whites n America have any merit..” that doesn’t make ANY sense with the topic at hand.
Let me ask you a direct question: if you think the survey I provided in evidence is BS, then where’s your proof? Where’s your argument? Where’s your reasoning? All you’ve said is that it’s dumb propaganda, but haven’t provided anything beyond unsubstantiated claims.
And frankly dude I think you’re now just being ignorant out of stubbornness. Don’t want to admit you’re wrong? That’s okay, a lot of ignorance is born from stubbornness. I suppose Abraham Foxman got the first Annual Martin Luther King, Jr. – Donald R. Mintz Freedom and Justice Award from HBCU Dillard University just because he hates Black people. Am I right?
Or what about books detailing the historical efforts of the ADL during the Civil Rights movement? (See: Vonkin, Stuart. Jews Against Prejudice: American Jews and the Fight for Civil Liberties. New York: Columbia University Press, 1997. Focuses on the post- World War II activities of the ADL.)
Seriously, you not only have no idea what you’re talking about, and it’s not only embarrassing, but it’s pretty effing stupid considering earlier you were all against “denial, deflection and the usual references… [in your case, to unsubstantiated claims regarding the ADL and Abraham Foxman, among others, which I already disproved three times now] which have nothing to do with the issue of course…”
Those are YOUR words. Apparently they don’t mean much to you though. But if you don’t give a damn, that’s fine by me. The only one who has to live with that guilt, hypocrisy, ignorance and bigotry is YOU.
Have fun =)
P.S. More evidence about Black anti-Semitism
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27378
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,836819,00.html
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Black_student_groups.html
Guess what ignorance in the face of reality is called? Bigotry. And there’s nothing profound about bigotry.
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Zek,
Trying real hard there my son..Recall that I don’t invoke links in a chat forum for a number of reasons..It is interesting how I pushed you to augment your links with additional proofs..I figured you would get the message caused that sole link to ADL just was’nt kosher..lol,lol,lol
The ADL has always been late to the battle with regards to civil rights expecially Black folks..ADL is a white jewish political interest group not a Black one..Of course you knew that right..
The ADL like many other white groups piggybacked on the efforts of Black Americans and our struggles for dignity in America..I do understand why the ADL wants to get some credibility given Black folks legendary civil rights stature..
Psst a little secret for ya..Black folks have always given whites some dap just to keep them from reverting to form..lol,lol,lol
The ADL is at best on a good day a margainal footnote in the annuals of Black liberation in America..White Jewish Liberals like thier White counterparts have always exhibited white guilt ..The ADL is no different of course..
The ADL’s survey is not even worth the paper it is written on..It is at best a fundraiser device that has run it’s course..Observing you have emotional fits over the ADL and it’s propaganda is amusing and again just validates and confirms all that I have posted about White Racism and people like you who hide behind your jewishness while enjoying the pride and privledges of being White in America..
One other note to report to ADL about me and please take good notes…My Black genius never concerns itself about irrevelant issues i.e spelling, grammar, stytax etc in a chat forum since this is not an english lit class and given your obession with my posts you would look like fool stalking me as you have over the past week if you did not understand my content…..LOl,LOL,,LOL..
Oh yeah Shalom and save me some lox when I come through your joint..
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I don’t know, Greg… I assume you’re just playing around… but don’t you feel a little uncomfortable saying stuff like:
“Oh yeah Shalom and save me some lox when I come through your joint.”???
It just sounds too much like some White guy saying,
“Oh yeah, peace ma brotha, and save me some fried chicken and watermelon when I bounce through yo crib?”
at the end of a post. Why does Zek’s cultural background have to become part of the argument?
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King,
Who says it is?? Why does my cultural background have to become part of the argument? I am a Black Jew words like lox and shalom are part of my discourse..
More importantly I define and I alone reserve the right about when I am uncomfortable about anything not posters like you or others in a chat forum….WTF
Of course don’t let me prevent you from having an opinion about Abe’s worthless contemptible negrophobia themed survey or Zek’sdeflection of the yiddish n-word..
I don’t retreat or surrender to any racism or bigotry in any venue nor from any organization or person etc…
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Ah, I was forgetting that you’re a Black Jew. So then, you’re remarks are Jew to Jew?
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Why is everything in Italics?
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Enjoyed the post. I didn’t have any idea Maya Rudolph, is Minnie Riperton’s daughter. You learn something new everyday. I love finding good reads on your site. Good stuff! 🙂
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Zek did not close his italics properly. I fixed it.
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Abagond,
Yeah, sorry about that.
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Greg,
I don’t retreat or surrender to any racism or bigotry in any venue nor from any organization or person etc…
Except, apparently, when that bigotry is anti-Semitism in the Black community.
Hah!
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Zek didn’t use a backslash, and it caused a slight eyesore? Ah-HAH! Clear evidence of the Zionist Conspiracy to demoralize working class white and black folks! I knew it! I freakin’ knew it!
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Zek,
Especially when the bigotry is approved by ADL under the leadership of Abe Foxman who publishes a racist survey with false inferences about Black Americans..
Good Ole Abe of course has no shame no regret spreading ugly opinions about Black Americans of course is not new in our nation..It is tragic to observe this ugly American pastime being conducted and sanctioned by ADL..
The privledges of being White still contaminates our nation …
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Greg,
Sorry but I don’t really believe you’re a Jew. If you were, you wouldn’t make corny jokes based on stereotypes that are offensive to the religion and culture.
Unless of course you’re one of those Black Hebrews who believe that they’re descended from ancient Israelites and that European Jews aren’t really Jews. Now THAT I could believe about you, haha.
But seriously, you keep saying Abraham Foxman is racist and that the ADL survey is racist, but you haven’t provided any proof of that. In fact, you haven’t even LOOKED at the survey and how it documents anti-Semitism amongst ALL groups in America. Black people constitute only one part of the multi-faceted results from their study.
Also, I’m curious. Why is it so offensive to you that a form of bigotry exists among Black Americans? Don’t Black people have the right to be just as prejudiced as White people? Aren’t Black people just as susceptible to faults and failures as the rest of us? Or do you not think Black people capable of such humanity?
This I’m asking honestly… Though likely you’ll find a way to cry like a baby that I’m “stalking” you, even though I’ve only been responding to your comments directed at me in this post! Haha!
Anyhoo, besides being a fraud, and ignorant, and possibly anti-Semitic, is there anything you could add to this discussion that would actually be 1) coherent 2) based on evidence or logic 3) have something to do with what I’ve been saying.
Because seriously, you don’t make yourself look good with statements like this: My Black genius never concerns itself about irrevelant issues i.e spelling, grammar, stytax etc
Haha! I think you meant syntax, and I’m pretty sure the mark of a semi-intelligent person in every day life is their ability to read and write. So far you haven’t been able to do either. Are you perhaps a high school dropout??
One last thing. The only who has been pushed is YOU. Pushed to make an argument. Pushed to provide evidence. Pushed to prove the things you are saying with some kind of logic or evidence. Pushed to act like a man and man up! Sadly, you seem content with random unsubstantiated claims and a constant attempt to swagger while acting like a mixture between an Internet Tough-Guy and Meatloaf from the Apprentice.
It’d be funny if it weren’t so pathetic.
Oh well. No skin off my teeth “brotha” =P
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@greg: Get serious, man. Are you saying that the N word comes from yiddish? If you do claim that, then you do not know a didi about yiddish. Obviously you do not know much about judaism if you do not know that. I recommend few history classes to you as well, and some ethymological studies about the N word and its origins.
Education is freedom from the tyranny of ignorance.
Peace!
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Zek,
I am not sure you are jewish either?? Prove it? Where are your papers?? Your links??
With regard to your questions I have never posted that Bigotry is absent in the Black Community nor have I posted that the Black Community is not capable of inhumanity..it is YOU that is running wild with unwarranted inferences about Black folks just like Abe Foxman and ADL does with this bigoted survey….You posted the following offensive fiction and inferences based upon the flawed survey findings…These are your words’
..” the ADL has done a survey and concluded that roughly 36% of Black people hold anti-Semitic beliefs. While that isn’t a majority, it is a significant minority ..”
“Frankly the survey is compelling evidence on it’s own merits (again, read the study) but when you couple that with the many prominent Black leaders who have said/say/believe/believed anti-Semitic things, I think you’d be hard pressed NOT to notice that a significant minority of Black people hold strongly anti-Semitic beliefs.”
” Definitely not the majority of Black. But many. 35%. Around a third..”
You have posted these myopic and bigoted inferences based upon a flawed and biased driven survey created by ADL not a 3rd party group but a Jewish special interest organization that not only creates and markets this propaganda but also invokes this propaganda as part of it’s fundraising activities etc..
Yet I understand your rage as a Black man in America people like you have always existed to demonized Black Americans.. People like you have always hid behind religion to engaged in bigotry..You have been obessed with me because I rejected and objected to your contempt for me and I objected to your insertion of ADL’s propaganda..You have now insulted my family and my jewishness…
One other note ..This is a chat forum not an english lit class I never concern myself with spelling, grammar, syntax, etc..I will let people like you obess such nonsense ..Of course it did not prevent you from posting long winded excuses and comments about my posts..What a hypocrite you are..
Shalom and get rid of the yiddish n-word I can smell it on your breath even now..lol,lol,lol
.
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Sam,
Learn to read and comprehend words before you leap and make yourself look like a fool..I never posted that the n-word comes from yiddish or even has any yiddish/german orgins..WTF..
You need to get out more often and meet Black jews like me and my family and friends…Are you that dense? I have an idea ..YOU take the history classes and get back with me when you are educated enough to take the ethymological studies about the N word and its origins… You post like you don’t know any Black folks…
Shalom
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Greg,
Rage? What rage? Haha, oy vey… Does laughter or pity count? That’s about all I can feel for you. Especially since you constantly taunt me to use slurs as if you want to be called those things. But twisted as that it is it would actually make a lot of sense in your case.
If you want proof of my Jewishness go read my blog, go read my girlfriend’s blog. Shoot, go read the many blogs which reference me. Do a Google search. I don’t really care though, because trying to turn my accusations about you not being a Jew on to myself only demonstrates one thing: just no skill.
Again you say You have posted these myopic and bigoted inferences based upon a flawed and biased driven survey created by ADL not a 3rd party group but a Jewish special interest organization that not only creates and markets this propaganda but also invokes this propaganda as part of it’s fundraising activities etc..
But you provide no PROOF! And at this point I can only surmise that you have none. You’ve made a lot of unsubstantiated claims, but haven’t backed any of them up with anything even close to a real argument. Just gesticulating like a feeble old woman complaining about kids on the grass while crying “racist, racist, racist!” And yet, unlike REAL anti-racists — many of whom are watching our conversation on this blog — you don’t have a real reason why any of this is racist. And your insistence on the supposed racism of the ADL and Abraham Foxman without any proof can only be proof that you are someone who’s got a big chip on their shoulder, someone who is, honestly, just as bigoted as the people he claims to despise. The irony is so palatable I feel like I could eat it with a fork and knife.
And the more you try to turn my responses to your comments to me into some “obsession” the more you will make yourself into a ridiculous drama-queen. Not that you haven’t already. But I digress… you started the whole stereotypical “let me act like some goyim’s idea of a Jew” as soon as I started hitting you with hard questions and logic. In typical lamester fashion you ran away from them and hid behind an inability to write, and dramatics.
At this point, I can only ask why’d you even bother talking to me in the first place if you’re such a hater?
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Zek,
I am blushing observing your obession over my dead on posts about you and your defensive guilt driven excuses about Abe Foxman & ADL..I now have you offering up your girlfriend ‘s blog and unk bloogers on the internet to validate for me your jewishness…lol,lol,lol..I got you working overtime and it is so easy to push your buttons…lol,lol,
Your retorts are getting real desparate now you are introducing old woman, chips on shoulders, goyim’s etc…. I imagine the kitchen sink is forthcoming soon..Of course you know at some point you will be calling me the yiddish n-word…. Once that happens your mask will be off and you will confirm my initial premise which created this massive defensive volley of posts from you which is in too many white jewish venues of late the specter of white racism is always present from the frequent usage of the yiddish n-word to the contempt of Obama and Black folks ..
Just revisit your comments to me…You inserted and introduced the ADL’s bigotry themed driven survey about Black Americans only after I challenged and confronted you to deal with the yiddish n-word and white racism in many jewish venues including your household..After I posted these factual comments you then went dark on a homeboy..You actually had the audacity to question my jewishness and now you have become ADL’s publicist…. The rest is history..
I understand your defensive anger..BTW Say Hi to your girlfriend from the colored guy…..lol,lol,lol
Oh yeah I forgot…SHALOM
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@greg: Sorry, I just assumed so because you keep blabbering about “the yiddish N word” on and on.
I happen to know few blacks, from USA AND from Britain, AND from Africa, but perhaps they do not count in your book? Some I’ve known for couple decades but then again, maybe that means nothing?
I know the history of the N word well, from the very beginning. I just assumed that you did not because your blabbering of the “yiddish N word” seemed to point that direction. Sorry, my bad.
As for “black jews”, there are black jews in Israel as well as there are some in Europe too. Perhaps you belong to a particular american sect, a bit like the “black muslims”, who have their very own version of the original religion. That would explain your hostility towards jewish guy like Zek and white jews in general.
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I am grateful to have a personal experience in the workplace that allows for lively discussion of these themes. I am an Ashkenazi Jew and work with an African American and Pakistani Muslim teacher in a Special Education classroom in the Los Angeles Unified School District. Living in a city with the race consciousness that LA has, to put it mildly, entrenchments run very deep and political correctness has been a long held barrier standing in the way of opening up the minds of the students. When I posited the supposition that Jews shared Black DNA, these students were shocked. Most of them are youth of color and classify me carte blanche as “white”, can’t even comprehend that they are closer to me than they are closer to the European. Showing the photos of Beta Israel, Falasha Mura, Maya Rudolph and others, a small opening has been punctured in the divisions that limit and putrefy our humanness. As the late Michael Chrichton said, “there is a limit to my intelligence, but there is no limit to my ignorance”.
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Sam,
I accept your apology..I don’t have any hositlity toward Zek or white jews..I just reject bigotry and racsim whoever/wherever/whoever/however.. It is a normal reality for Black Americans like me and others who live in a nation where the legacy of racism is deep and the shelflife of racism has yet to expire….
Even white liberals and progressives are contaminated with this racial pathology..People actually think the civil rights laws are progressive!! Imagine being forced to legally respect the dignity of another human being… The reality of our nation’s paradigm of racism is often difficult to even fathom….The idea that fellow americans required a litmus test of laws to respect the essence of a human being of different hue is an ugly truth about our country.
Instead of having these inherent values and principles the white majority in our nation had to draft laws which legally forced themselves( white majority )to be civil and humane..WTF…Zek is in many ways is an outcome of privledged generational bandwidth his library of knowledge is shallow and without any reality…He is a classic chatter class intellectual a empty vessel full of others’s dogma , soundbites and digitial propaganda.
My cultural DNA as a Free Black Man in America requires me to educate the ignorant and liberate those in oppression..It is my civic duty as an American
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To Greg Thrasher:
Abe Foxeman’s subjective survey about Black Americans is nonsense nor even worthy of being site as some authority on anything about Black Americans…Abe’s survey is offensive and is exactly the kind of fictional garbage that creates tension between Black and white jews..
Abe’s organization also engages in profiling Black professors and intellectuals as well..
Why do you believe the ADL survey was fictional garbage..? What Black professors and intellectuals do you believe the ADL has unfairly smeared…? I am not intimately familiar with the organization but my understanding is their prime targets are White anti-Semites.
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@the cynic
Not sure if this has been answered already but Sudan can be roughly split into the north and south in terms of race (and now i guess by land). The north is pred Arab and the south is predominantly black. The Arab president is currently trying to kill off the black Sudanese in the central areas of the country.
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@ Abagond
Of course you are Jewish, mostly white looking, so you would know all about this topic, wouldn’t you?
Trying to fool people on this blog by stating that you are African American, when you know that your family is as racist as they come. Some are part of the Ku Klux Klan and others are part of the BNP.
Why are you trying to fool people? I really can’t stand deceptive people like you.
Although, I must say that your historical research is right on point.
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this goes to show us that if there weren’t black people then jews, arabs, and palestinians wouldn’t be so different from regular europeans, and maybe then there would be peace on earth.
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I wonder how the percentage of Sub-Saharan African blood in Jews compare to white Americans.
Anyhow, 70 million or more white Americans have between 2% and 20% African blood, yet, there has never been full peace between whites and blacks there.
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The error of these tests is that they are only looking for a very specific Gene pool to determine blackness. Only sub-Saharan Africans…white scientist don’t consider North and East Africa Black The pure Bedouin which are 100 percent Black have very little sub-Saharan African in them, If they were to check how much Arab was in all these people they would have different results. Also if they were to check for North, East, Central and South Africa, especially since the Jews carried all of these blood lines when they lived in Egypt for 4 generations.
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Some one mentioned North Sudan as being predominately Arab and the South as Black and neither of these two groups have sub-Saharan African Genes and yet they carry the same black Phenotype. People in America need to stop using Sub-Saharan Africa as the archetype for blackness!
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wow, intelligent conversation about race… I almost cried… no racial slurs, just reasoning… i honestly thought this was gone from the world, my faith in humanity restored! #carryon
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Christina – I felt the same way – this is the first time I have stumbled upon a post about race where the comments are warm and collegiate – I loved the post too because I’m Jewish and write about race and parenting (transracialparenting.org) and although Jews pass as white in the U.S., our experience is very different from white people.
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Reblogged this on Life in Anglo-America.
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The percentage is a lie,its not reality. I have seeen some so-called jewish people with very thick lips and very kinky hair who identifyed themselfs as being jewish. The original jews are black as the ancient scriptures have stated,many light skin jews of today are tri-racial white negroid and asianoid. I believe the DNA test are skewed,the percentage should be much higher.I have very white looking realatives in my family who look totally white who have black parents.
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Akim you are livining in a fantasy world where black is red and red is black,the peopel of northren Sudan are part of the black race,there is know such thing as Arab. Firstl, originally Arabs were all black,not like the peole who claim the heritage of today.
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White jews are not semites, they are the people of the book,the are claim a heritage that is not thiers,they cannot trace there lineage back to the oringinal black hebrew people.j
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Original man came out of Afrika. The Adam was a black man containing dna of 12 colours all black shades. Noah married a woman from Cains seed (cain was struck by leprosy and was cured when all of his skin turned white-Liv 13v13). He had 3 different shades of black chilldren. Obe of them Japheth being the lightest looking more like his mother. The current white so called or self styled jews carry the original afrikan dna but being in contact with northern isrrael who like todays afrikan diaspora desperately still trying to make themselves white. This is Jacobs problem that his issue are split in two…the lions of Judah who wont mix up their bloodline at the drop of a hat vs those that cannot escape the seduction of Cain. We talking 444k here. So many blacks dont want to know about the resposibility of keeping the race alive..Gods people have been destroyed by lack of knowledge on all levels but a few escape…just like Noah did.
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https://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/2015/06/16/evidence-mounts-of-ancient-jewish-roots-of-beta-israel-ethiopian-jewry/
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