If the Holocaust was seen the same way black history is in America, people would make excuses for it, play it down, cast doubt on it, avoid talking about it and shame people out of taking it seriously. Holocaust deniers would no longer be seen as nut cases but as “part of the debate”.
Jews would be told to get over it, stop complaining, stop living in the past, stop playing the victim, stop trying to take advantage of people’s guilt for their own ends. It is Ancient History, it has Absolutely Nothing To Do With The Present. No one alive took part in it. “My family never killed any Jews!” And so on.
Jews need to concern themselves with the here and now, with things they can change. All this talk about history is a huge waste of time. So shut up already.
Jews would be told that genocide is natural: the Turks did it, the Rwandans did it, the Cambodians did it – everyone does it!
In high school history books there would be no pictures of bodies, no pictures of skin-and-bone Jews, nothing about Anne Frank’s diary or Hitler’s “Mein Kampf”. Just the bare events. It would seem like a one-off thing, not something rooted in hundreds of years of hatred and prejudice. There would be nothing about anti-Semitism, its history or its causes. Nothing about it being a sick frame of mind.
To “teach the debate” there would be a part on Holocaust deniers. It would be used to cast doubt on the whole thing and leave the reader to suppose that “the truth is somewhere in the middle”: that, sure, “some Jews were killed” during the excesses of war, but certainly not millions.
Hitler would not be seen as evil. The general public would not even know about his anti-Semitic views. And whenever those views were made known, like on some PBS documentary at ten o’clock at night, they would be quickly dismissed out of hand by saying that Hitler was a man of his times, that he was not perfect.
Howard Zinn and Noam Chomsky would certainly tell us the truth, but they would be dismissed as Jews who have every motive to make it sound worse than it was. Meanwhile Jews who cast doubt on the Holocaust would be called “thoughtful” and appear on television as experts.
Of course it is nothing like that. It is almost the opposite. Because:
- Americans did not do it, so there is no need to shift blame, make excuses, avoid the subject or anything like that. In fact it was carried out by an enemy state whose misdeeds are patiently taught to schoolchildren – as A Part of History.
- It was Jews who were being killed. In America they count as Almost Real People, certainly Real enough that their deaths seem like a terrible thing, a crime that must never be forgotten.
See also:
- Teflon Theory of History
- “It was the times!”
- “Get over it”
- History in American schoolbooks:
Profound.
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But this is the thing, the Holocaust IS black history. Many blacks were killed during the Holocaust. Of course, the focus is on Jewish persons who were killed (6 million) but 11 million people who were not Jewish died in these camps as well, including blacks, gays, transgender people, etc. Of course, no1curr about blacks who died in the holocaust.
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Which only makes my case, particularly what I said in the last paragraph.
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How many Black people do you think were living in Germany in 1933?
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Interesting, on the subject from Wiki.
““Of particular concern to the Nazi scientist Eugen Fischer were the “Rhineland Bastards”: mixed-race offspring of Senegalese soldiers who had been stationed in the Rhineland as part of the French army of occupation. He believed that these people should be sterilized in order to protect the racial purity of the German population. At least 400 mixed-race children were forcibly sterilized in the Rhineland by 1938. This order only applied in the Rhineland. Other African Germans were unaffected. Despite this policy there was never any systematic attempt to eliminate the (very small) black population in Germany, though mixed marriage and interracial sex was illegal. According to Susan Samples the Nazis went to great lengths to conceal their sterilization and abortion program in the Rhineland.[14] Hans Massaquoi describes his experience as a half-African in Hamburg, unaware of the Rhineland sterilizations until long after the war.[15] Samples also points to the paradoxical fact that African-Germans actually had a better chance of surviving the war than the average German. They were excluded from military activity because of their non-Aryan status, but were not considered a threat and so were unlikely to be incarcerated. Samples and Massaquoi also note that African-Germans were not subjected to the segregation they would have experienced in the United States, nor excluded from facilities such as expensive hotels. However, both she and Massaquoi state that downed black American pilots were more likely to become victims of violence and murder from German citizens than were white pilots.”
But perhaps this is a bit of a tangential question.
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And people would tell Jews that “people didn’t know any better. They believed that Jews were inferior, that they were genetically predisposed to bear the sort of treatment that they received. They couldn’t help not knowing any better. That was the only information they had.”
Aaaaand “But the Army came in and saved many Jews. Things were bad, but they did get straightened out.” (Like, England abolished slavery in all of its territories and ‘set things right.’)
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-It’s true that there weren’t many Blacks in Nazi Germany, however, I have noticed that a lot of people make the Holocaust out to be a solely Jewish affair. All of the Poles, Slavs, Roma Gypsies, Communist(for the people that believe communism is the same as fascism), and others are totally ignored.
-Have any of you guys ever heard of the Race War of 1912 in Cuba? 3,000-6,000 Afro-Cubans were killed over a span of three months.
-How bout the Namibia genocide committed by Germany?
There are several “Holocausts” in Black history, people just don’t know about them. If it wasn’t for the number of Jews that died or WWII, we might not even know as much as we do about their genocide in Germany.
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As far as living as a person of African descent in n@zi occupied France, I could fill many pages with first hand stories from my own family. I don’t want to derail the subject though. In essence, the terror against black people wasn’t as systematic and organised as some might think (definitely not as organised as against Jews, Sinti, political opponents etc) but serious enough to be afraid of being deported any time. The n@zis were worried about the increasing “vernegerung” (negroisation?) of France and always denounced France’s laissez-faire in dealing with black people. However, there are many contradictions in the ways the n@zis (and other Germans who were too scared to voice their anti-n@zi opinion) dealt with black people. As I said, it would take me ages to write everything down I heard from direct witnesses throughout my life.
My grandmother with my mother and her siblings were lucky enough to have found refuge in Switzerland after the Germans invaded France while my grandfather went underground to help organising sabotage attacks against the Vichy regime.
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There was a black holocaust in Namibia under the rule of 3rd Reich where blacks were murdered in huge numbers and survivors were driven into the desert where they died of thirst. After the genocide mostly women and children remained, who were put in concentration camps where they were starved and overworked. The little amount of food they used to be given was unfit for human consumption. Disease spread in the camps without proper sanitation and crowding in the camps and without any medical attention, many died. Eugen Fischer (father of eugenics?) conducted medical experiment on Herero and mixed people that was pretty similar to what Mengele did about 30 years later. Severed heads of the Herero and Namaqua genocide were displayed in the museum. Women were forced to boil severed heads(sometimes of their own relatives) and scrape the flesh off them so that the skulls could be used for exhibition and ‘medical research’. Within five years, from 24000 to 100000 people were killed (I think the number may be bigger as several attempts to downplay the heinousness of the massacre are still ongoing).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_and_Namaqua_Genocide
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The Namibia genocide didn’t happen happen under the third Reich. It was under the German Kaiserreich (empire).
The n@zis got probably inspired by the cruelties 30 years later.
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Oops, thanks for the correction. And yeah, it looks like n@zis simply extended the treatment to jews, gays and others they didn’t like.
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I suppose it’s getting slightly off topic but here’s an interesting documentation about the Namibia genocide.
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-899627923732856130#
My grandmother grew up in Cameroon under German colonial rule. She had quite a few stories to tell about how relentless and cruel they could be but also about how inconsistent they were in their behaviour unless they were given clear orders from above. Quite strange…
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You hit the nail on the head, Abagond.
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Brava. Good work…again.
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Are there any slavery deniers in the United States?
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The saddest thing about this post is that it is so true.
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“Are there any slavery deniers in the United States?”
As far as I’ve seen, not even Stormfronters say it didn’t happen.
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No, they wouldn’t.
Zinn and Chomsky come closer to Holocaust denial than any other prominent Jewish intellectuals in this country. They are also ardent anti-Zionists, especially Chomsky (Hizballah’s favorite Jew).
ADL’s Abraham Foxman, often accused of exaggerating anti-Semitism in America for self-serving reasons, would have fitted your scenario better.
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…”Jews would be told that genocide is natural: the Turks did it, the Rwandans did it, the Cambodians did it – everyone does it!…”
Excellent. Also include, ‘and Africans sold their own people’, so basically, shut-up…
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Speaking of Cambodia, Chomsky is also a supporter of Pol Pot’s genocide. A truly exemplar human being, he is.
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Don’t forget these arguments…
“Jews also benefited in a major way from the Holocaust. Because of it, they now have their very own nation, Israel, that is one of the most advanced and prosperous in the world. See things worked out well for them in the end.”
I know many of you have heard something similar to this concerning slavery.
“The people brought from Africa were the lucky ones. They were rescued from the hellhole that is Africa, were civilized, and given the gift of Christianity. The descendants of slaves are actually better off than those who remain in Africa. Blacks [in America] were done a favor being brought here”
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@The Cynic, why are you excluding Sinti?
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Re: Oyan’s “sold their own people” addition…
The existence of Jews who collaborated with the Nazis has hardly ever been deployed as a perceived the game changing big joker in the always stack deck of cards.
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This was a great post. Really puts into perpective how some people are more human than others, how their history matters more than others, and how their sensitive feelings matter more than others.
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@ Ifeoma
Thanks for your interest. I’ll drop you a line, depending on my time which is unfortunately limited.
I hope your email won’t get flooded by spam robots now. It’s usually not a good idea to post an email address in clear text on the internet 😉
regards
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Brilliant post! I’ve been thinking the same thing for years since being bombarded by Holocaust history in my high school AP history class.
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The Jews seem to be doing just fine now. And the Holocaust was a lot more recent than slavery. You’re shooting yourself in the foot with this comparison.
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on Mon 18 Apr 2011 at 00:31:32 King
“Are there any slavery deniers in the United States?”
As far as I’ve seen, not even Stormfronters say it didn’t happen.
————————————————————
They do not say it never happened, but say that it was not as ‘bad’ as records/history proclaims that it was.
@Nquest…”The existence of Jews who collaborated with the Nazis has hardly ever been deployed as a perceived the game changing big joker in the always stack deck of cards.
———————————————–
True, but there numerous ‘stories’, where Jews were complicit, but betrayed, and stories where Jewish women even married Germans/Nazi’s. (The Nazi Officer’s wife).
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saadiyah said
Oh yes. Good one. Thanks.
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Dr. Grzlickson said:
You are missing the point. This post is not about comparing Jewish and black history and thereby somehow accounting for their success or lack thereof. It is about how black history is not seen in the same way as other people’s histories. Different rules are applied.
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EXCELLENT post!!!!
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@Dr. Grzlickson
“The Jews seem to be doing just fine now. And the Holocaust was a lot more recent than slavery. You’re shooting yourself in the foot with this comparison.”
or you could have said:
Blacks are doing quite well now so they should just stop recanting the past and pretend it all never happened.
See what I did there? Your defensive and tired argument is expected on commentary like this, congratulations on being a boring troll.
Excellent post Abagond.
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Excellent post – kudos!
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I like the painting of Jefferson at the end of the post with no further explanation. Lol!
Classic Abagond.
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Actually, anti-Semites of nearly any place on the political spectrum do say all of those things. Indeed, for many Europeans, those are their attitudes towards the Holocaust.
I’d also add that maybe it isn’t the best idea to mention Chomsky: he has a rather ambiguous relationship with Holocaust deniers like Robert Faurisson, and the Institute for Historical Review.
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@ Greg Dragon
Except Blacks aren’t doing “quite well now”.
“See what I did there?”
No.
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Grzlickson,
The Jews seem to be doing just fine now.
Saying the Jews are doing well and so the Holocaust didn’t really impact us is like saying, “Well I accidentally tore your suit, but it really looks so much better this way!” Next you’ll be saying we should thank the N@zi scumbags…
But seriously, there were more Jews around the world than just Europe, and it was wealthy American Jews, and the few remaining wealthy European Jews who redistributed their wealth among the Jewish community that played a large factor in the Jews’ resurgence after the Holocaust, along with the world’s collective guilt that had them carve out a homeland for us, despite the fact that people were already living there. Including other Jews!
There are other ancillary factors as well, but saying the Jews seem to be doing fine now is pretty disgusting in light of the atrocities of the Holocaust. Especially since you seem to have no idea what was lost because of it — an entire world of Jewish enlightenment, including a member of my own family.
Perhaps you should stop calling yourself a “Dr” since you do the title a disservice.
nonserviam,
Apparently you don’t seem to know much about Chomsky and Zinn, as they are not anti-Semites, nor are they Holocaust deniers. They merely object (objected in Zinn’s case) to Israel’s foreign policy and treatment of the Palestinians. They are also not Zionists, which is not the same as being anti-Semitic or a Holocaust denier.
I suggest you study up some more before making ludicrous statements about public figures ; )
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@Dr. G
Black history doesn’t end with slavery…
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King
I like the painting of Jefferson at the end of the post with no further explanation. Lol!
Classic Abagond.
———————–
I agree. It’s like, some ‘spoken word’ at Def Jam, than, a ‘drops mike’ ending……
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Don’t forget about how the Nuremberg Trials wouldn’t have happened. People who did the wrong would NEVER come to justice. Just continue to live their lives peacefully. Where were the trials for slave owners?? Where is justice???!!!!!!!!!!!!
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“Jews would be told that genocide is natural: the Turks did it, the Rwandans did it, the Cambodians did it – everyone does it!”
And don’t forget the Chetnik Serbs, (Srebrenica 1995), ahem.
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saadiyah said
Don’t forget these arguments…
“Jews also benefited in a major way from the Holocaust. Because of it, they now have their very own nation, Israel, that is one of the most advanced and prosperous in the world. See things worked out well for them in the end.”
Sure, tell that to the Bosniaks who were driven from their homes and to add insult to injury, the conquered territory the VRS stole wasn’t given back to the Bosniaks.
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@Abagond
“…It is about how black history is not seen in the same way as other people’s histories. Different rules are applied.”
Excellent Point. It’s worth mentioning that the “rules” are ALWAYS different especially where blacks are concerned, and without these rules racism/white supremacy would not exist. Your mention of different rules brings to mind Derrick Bell’s insights which in my opinion are worth pasting here because they substantiate your point.
The Rules of Racial Standing
FIRST RULE
The law grants litigants standing to come into court based on their having sufficient personal interest and involvement in the issue to justify judicial cognizance. Black people (while they may be able to get into court) are denied such standing legitimacy in the world generally when they discuss their negative experiences with racism or even when they attempt to give a positive evaluation of another black person or of his work. No matter what their experience or expertise, blacks’ statements involving race are deemed ‘special pleading’ and thus not entitled to serious consideration.
SECOND RULE
Not only are blacks’ complaints discounted, but black victims of racism are less effective witnesses than are whites, who are members of the oppressor class. This phenomenon reflects a widespread assumption that blacks, unlike whites, cannot be objective on racial issues and will favor their own no matter what. This deep seated belief fuels a continuing effort – despite all manner of Supreme Court decisions intended to curb the practice – to keep black people off juries in cases involving race. Black judges hearing racial cases are eyed suspiciously and sometimes asked to recuse themselves in favor of a white judge – without those making the request even being aware of the paradox in their motions.
THIRD RULE
Few blacks avoid diminishment of racial standing, most of their statements about racial conditions being diluted and their recommendations of other blacks taken with a grain of salt. The usual exception to this rule is the black person who publicly disparages or criticizes other blacks who are speaking or acting in ways that upset whites. Instantly, such statements are granted ‘enhanced standing’ even when the speaker has no special expertise or experience in the subject he or she is criticizing.
FOURTH RULE
When a black person or group makes a statement or takes an action that the white community or vocal components thereof deem “outrageous,” the latter will actively recruit blacks willing to refute the statement or condemn the action. Blacks who respond to the call to condemnation will receive superstanding status. The blacks who refuse to be recruited will be interpreted as endorsing the statements and action and may suffer political or economic reprisals.
FIFTH RULE
True awareness requires an understanding of the Rules of Racial Standing. As an individuals understanding of these rules increases, there will be more and more instances where one can discern their workings. Using this knowledge, one gains the gift of prophesy about racism, its essence, its goals, even its remedies. The price of this knowledge is the frustration that follows recognition that no amount of public prophesy, no matter its accuracy, can either repeal the Rules of Racial Standing nor prevent their or prevent their operation.
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I chose Zinn and Chomsky not because they represent mainstream Jewish opinion but because they are independent-minded enough not to always mouth such opinion. Yet they would still be discredited as Jews all the same.
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@ Matari:
Great stuff. I have noticed most of that too. Thanks.
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I’m just pointing out that Chomsky has a very ambiguous relationship to Holocaust deniers: he himself is not one, but he finds it politically expedient to ally himself with them from time to time since they share similar attitudes towards Israel, and a general hostility towards Jewish community as a whole. So he has argued at times that Holocaust denial is not at root anti-Semitic, and that Holocaust denial, despite being pseudo-scholarship, is covered by academic freedom. (In short I see him as a major conduit on the increased acceptability on the far left of anti-Semitic canards that had previously been primarily the province of the far-right.)
But I’d also point out that Chomsky has no academic training in history, political science, or any related discipline, and it shows in his writings and the interviews he gives. He has an ideological agenda and adjusts his facts to suit the desired conclusion.
So I’ll just reiterate that I have heard and read all of the above dismissals of the historical significance of the Holocaust, often coupled with denials that the speaker or writer is an anti-Semite.
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Ian said:
I think that is a fair criticism of Chomsky, but in the thought experiment above it would never get that far: only two things would matter: a) He is Jewish and b) He disagrees with mainstream opinion. His statements would get processed according to Rules of Racial Standing in Matari’s comment – except Jews would now be the despised other, not blacks.
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Abagond:
As a blackman in the US, I’m trying to understand the contradiction of jewish people on this planet. Hitler was an avowed leftist……socialism and all of the other isms. But, many jews in the US subscribe to leftist thinking and ideology, which is why they vote democrat for the most part. Abagond, I’m trying to understand the thinking that would make a victimized group support the same ideology that caused the murder of their people. How can they hate Hitler, and at the same time, embrace the likes of Yasser Arafat, and other dictators around the globe who have killed way more than 6 million human beings? The reason why a lot of people have issues with jewish-americans, is because of the hypocrisy of what took place during the holocaust, and the political ideology that the more liberal jews in NY and LA embrace. Jews are quick to see it as anti-semitism, but that’s beside the point. Jews are not immune from being criticized by other people on this planet. Black people were slaves in the Americas for 400+ years and we’re criticized by non-blacks for this and that, Why should white jews be any different? I have major issues with white arabs and jews as it relates to history and north africa. North Africa belongs to africa, Egypt belongs to africa…not the middle-east, black hebrews from Ethiopia are the original israelites, not whites from eastern europe. I’m tired of whites whitewashing the real history of judaism in north africa and the middle-east. Abagond, as black people, we gotta set the record straight, No Doubt!!!
Tyrone,
Truth Above All Things
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Chomsky (Hizballah’s favorite Jew) has, in fact, defended Holocaust deniers, as Ian Thal points out. Zinn, (in)famously has attacked German reparations to Jews as “Holocaust industry”.
Anti-Zionism is, in fact, a modern form of antisemitism. This is 2011, not 1897. The Zionist project has succeded. Israel exists. To deny its right to exist means to be an enemy of the Jewish people. I.e. an antisemite.
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Wrong. White European Jews are descended from the original Middle Eastern nation. The origins of Beta Israel are still an open question.
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@Tyrone
I don’t believe fascism is a leftist ideology. Adolf Hitler actually had communist killed during the Holocaust. Communism is most certainly on the left of the political spectrum. Some may call fascism rightist, I think it’s sort of harder to place…
Either way, liberal thinking does not demand its followers to condone or advocate genocide and hate, so I don’t know why anybody would use that as an excuse to have a beef w/ Jews. Generalizing is dumb. Not all Jews are liberal. Conservative Jews should most certainly be accounted for
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I’m not a big fan of Noam Chomsky. He denies the Srebrenica genocide.
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Tyrone:
European Jewry is both culturally and genetically tied to the Jewish populations that never left the Levant. The Beta Israel of Ethiopia appear to be the descendants of converts, however, under Jewish law, converts (and thus their descendants) are as much part of the Jewish people as anyone whose ancestors followed Moses out of Egypt. One who argues that one sort of Jew has a more legitimate birthright to Judaism than another because of their ancestry or nation of origin is ignorant of Judaism and is seeking to set one group against the other.
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The origins of Beta Israel are still an open question.
Aaaaaand now you’ve jumped the shark.
First you say Chomsky and Zinn are anti-Semites because they’re not Zionists, and now you’re attempting to change the historical fact that Beta Israelites are also Jews, both culturally and historically? I suppose Operation Magic Carpet slipped your mind. The IDF would not airlift hundreds to thousands of people for resettlement just because.
The more you post, the more your ignorance shows =/
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@zek: Looks to me that somehow history should be teatched more in schools :-DD Some history lessons could do wonders for some of these guys.
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Tyrone, I couldnt agree more.
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Sam,
Indeed. Not to sound elitist, but too few Gentiles know enough about the specifics of Jewish history to even sound convincing. He’d have done a better job if tried to teach the controversy instead of trying to propagandize utter ish.
But so it goes. I’m always done for dropping knowledge bombs when they be trying to use my people as a table-leg for their racist house of cards.
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zek:
First, Chomsky and Zinn are antisemites and all around despicable human beings. Anti-Zionism is just a part of it, and so is Holocaust denial.
Second, you’re (intentionally or for lack of reading comprehension) misreading my words about Beta Israel. That they have practised Judaism for a long a time and thus are a part of the Jewish nation isn’t under dispute. The open question is whether they have any ancestral ties to the Israelites, or are descended from the local Ethiopian population.
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You’re also too obtuse to realize that I am not a “gentile”.
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I do not know what Howard Zinn’s position of German reparations might be, so I have no idea if he is being fairly represented in nonserviam’s earlier statements, however just two points of information:
a.) Israel only received reparations to help pay for the absorption of those Jews who were made refugees by Germany and who were immigrated to Israel. That is to say, the payments only went to help survivors.
b.) Financial reparations to individuals was a consequence of government seizures of property– these, however, often take decades of detective work in terms of finding both assets and proper hours– and the work hours become costly, and thus an industry, in that there are people who had to make careers of engaging in this work.
Zinn killed his share of Germans during WWII and from what I have read, he seems to have wanted to wash his hands of the affair once the the war was over and probably figured that the killing he had done was more than enough. I respect his war time record but I disagree and feel survivors and their heirs are entitled to just reparations and also acknowledge that the people who track down the stolen assets need to pay rent, buy groceries and provide for their children.
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Nonserviam,
No, I’m reading your position correctly. You are merely attempting to change what you meant to cover up for your faux-pas.
Interestingly, genetically speaking Askhenazim and Beta Israelites share many striking similarities between certain genetic markers. Not that this precludes the possibility for Beta Israelites to be more closely related to the local indigenous Ethiopian population, but it raises a few eyebrows, particularly since there is a difference between Falasha and non-Falasha Ethiopian Jews. This also further undermines your indefensible position.
And again, you ARE wrong about Zinn and Chomsky. Neither of them have denied the Holocaust, nor have they expressed a wish for Israel to no longer exist. They merely object to Israel’s foreign policy and treatment of the Palestinians. That you’re attempting to present your conspiracy theories as fact is hilarious because both Zinn and Chomsky are public figures who may be easily researched to find out their views on the matter.
But hey! At least you’re consistent in your ignorance ; )
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I don’t get it. Why do ppl care so much if certain Jewish groups have ancestry that goes back to Israel? According to their faith, does God give you points for having Hebrew blood when you go to heaven? I thought all you have to do is practice the faith & your good.
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Excuse me for my ignorance. I nv focused in church when i was younger & I definitely don’t pay attention to that stuff now.
I also can’t understand what regional origins has to do w/ the “re”-settlement of Israel. Don’t they allow all immigrants as long as they practice the religion? Ancestry or not?
Basically what is a “real Jew”???
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“Basically what is a “real Jew”???
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ha ha very funny.
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zek:
Once again, complete absence of reading comprehension. There’s nothing and no one to debate.
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Out of morbid curiosity, though: what exactly is my “indefensible” position? That there are different views on the origins of Beta Israel?
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Chomsky’s and Zinn’s writings and public pronouncements are exactly what I base my opinions about them on.
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Currently there is no consensus. According to the Orthodox Judaism, anyone whose mother is Jewish or who has undergone the Orthodox conversion. Secular, non-practicing, even atheistic Jews are still Jews. I think the Reform Jewish movement recognizes patrilineal ancestry.
Israel’s Law of Return guarantees citizenship to anyone with at least one Jewish grandparent.
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@Nonserviam
So if I convert to Judaism I am not considered Jewish? If we assumed the religion in question to be true, would I not inherit the kingdom of heaven if I accepted Judaism today and followed all of its laws?
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A good question Cynic, so I’ll explain how we got side tracked into this. Tyrone made the following statement:
What Tyrone was attempting to do was delegitimize a significant segment of the Jewish people: Ashkenazim and European Sephardim as somehow not being connected to the Israelites of the ancient Levant region, that somehow they are not entitled to call themselves Jews, to insinuate some sort of conspiracy of disinformation. Furthermore, in this context, by calling these Jews “white”, Tyrone was downplaying the racist nature oppression that Jews suffered at the hands of European anti-Semites.
This is a technique many modern anti-Semites use: claiming that the modern Jews are somehow not real, that they are imposters without birthright– and even trying to set Jewish groups against one another.
Leaving aside the malicious intent, there are two problems with this:
a.) Genetic sampling demonstrates a clear linkage between the Jews of the Levant and the Jews of Europe (and even the Jews of Ethiopia.)
b.) Tyrone and people of his ilk misunderstand an essential part of Judaism: Jews may form an ethnic tribe as much as they form a religious community, but the religion says that convert to Judaism (and therefore anyone descended from a convert) is just as much of the Jewish people as anyone descended from the Israelites who fled from Egypt (pardon me, it’s Pesach, so I will invoke that story.)
Basically this means that while the Jew whose ancestors come from Morocco, the Jew whose ancestors come from Poland, the Jew whose ancestors come from Ethopia, and the adopted child who was born in Korea and adopted and raised by Russian Jews may look at each other funny all have equal birthright under Jewish law.
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@ Ian Thal
Now admittedly I’m not the most well read when it comes to Judiasm, due to lack of interest, but wouldn’t the link between the European Ashkenazi converts and the original Falasha/Sephardic ones be expected, and somewhat minimal?
I think Tyrone’s anger is influenced by the White Zionists that are treating the descendants of the original Jews horribly, while claiming to be the “real” Jews. Despite the fact that they weren’t the original ones. Not to engage in the morally bankrupt game of “The Suffering Olympics” but it seems hypocritical to bring up the Nazis and the White Jews during WWII, when this (almost unreported) nonsense by White Jews is still going on today. If you think about it, while I don’t agree with him, the reasons for Tyrone’s anger is completely understandable.
(Correct me if I’m wrong on anything, btw…)
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By the way…how do you quote people on this site? Sick of haing to do Italics.
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Franklin:
Part of the problem is that both you and Tyrone not only are you both not well read on Jewish history but that you are not well versed on Judaism, yet at the same time, you both have appointed yourself experts on who is a “real Jew” or “original Jew.” The point being that you are attempting to set one branch of the Jewish people against another, when, whatever tensions do exist, are relatively minor.
(I find it amazing that someone can start off by saying that he is not well read, but then claim to authoritatively to know what is going on in the next sentence.)
Not only are you more concerned with the distinction between a convert (or even the descendant of a convert) and one descended from ancient Israelites than Jews are but you proclaim myths about who is a real Jew and who is not– and that demonstrates your racism.
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@ Ian Thal
I only comment on who is an original Jew, because European converts were just “that”. Converts to an already established religion. This is not open for debate. Notice, I’ve never used the word “real” outside of quotation marks, since that is a subjective term and same can be said of any person that isn’t white and is a Christian. The same can’t be said about the word “original” though. They weren’t there from the beginning, so they aren’t original. Like how Black Americans don’t call themselves original Christians, or Hispanics with Catholics. They weren’t there from the beginning.
While I’m trying to remain as neutral as I can, since I’m not anti-semitic/Jewish in any way, I’m not going to mince words. While I did originally state that I’m not extremely well read, that just means I’m not privy to most aspects of Judiasm. Not that I know diddly squat about Judiasm. And that knowledge have about the religion, has nothing to do whatsoever with the violence Zionists are physically doing.
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Who are these “European converts” of whom you speak? You appear, in your earlier statement, to be referring to the Ashkenazi. Except there is a problem with your argument: Ashkenazic Jews aren’t largely descended from converts, any more than Jews in other parts of the world: genetic research shows that Ashkenazi ancestry goes back to the Levant and is shared with Jewish communities everywhere else in the world. So not only is your claim not iron-clad as you so claim, but utterly unsupportable by the evidence.
So yes, you do know diddly squat and you embrace diddly squat despite ready access to knowledge, and that is precisely what the word “prejudiced” means.
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@ Ian Thal
First of all, you’re saying that the group who speaks Yiddish (an overly non-Semitic language), who just happen to be primarily white, aren’t ancestors of Europeans? You’re also saying that you can’t draw a parrallel between the time the miniscule number of Ashkenazi (whos language is strikingly similar to High German) began to convert, to the 11th century where they made up only 3% of global Jews, to today where they make up the vast majority of them? It’s a “given” that today, they will have a similar makeup of other Jews, since they make up most Jews today. It’s called “mixing with a common ancestor”, and it has happened in places like Egypt and Ethiopia as well.
Second or all, take off your cloak of persecution. Someone merely inquiring about the finer details of Jewish ancestry, while wanting to clear up a few things up, isn’t your enemy. (Unless, with your unwarranted hostility, you want them to be…) And I only say “clear things up” because this is the information that I’ve gathered FROM readily available sources, that conflicts with yours. That should be a sign that I’m willing to learn “the truth.” But it seems that since you would resort to hostility so eagerly, you might be hiding something. That’s usually what the guilty does. As you can probably tell, my neutrality is slowly starting to vanish, but my mind is still open.
And I found it to be somewhat peculiar that you didn’t even comment on the actions of Zionists…
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Dear , , ,
I don’t really know where to start on this one but one as a Jew, I have been told to get over the holocaust. I have also been asked by people of German decent if I hate them. I don’t and I am over the holocaust. It is a case of forgive and don’t forget but I really only need to think about it once a year on holocaust remembrance day.
But, I can’t figure if you’re upset because Jews are getting press or if you feel that Blacks are not getting enough press. I suspect both but to counter point both sides of the coin I haven’t seen anyone giving any love to the Jewish people when they mourn the destruction of the Jewish Temple. I think the key difference is the holocaust is pictures. We live in an emotionally sensitive society and the pictures of the holocaust appeal to people’s emotions in way that stories of the African Holocaust do not have same emotional impact.
However, if there were pictures of the African Holocaust, I’m sure a lot of American’s would have a problem reconciling their self image as good people and the evil of slavery.
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Franklin:
I find it very peculiar that you keep harping on this.
I bet you have Jewish friends, too.
Ian Thal:
That’s because Franklin has an agenda to push. The old antisemitic canard about Ashkenazim being “converts” (or “Khazars”, or whatever) is aimed at undermining Ashkenazi claim to the the land of Israel as their ancestral homeland; and since modern Israel was founded mostly by Ashkenazim, to undermine Israel’s legitimacy as a state.
That seemingly unrelated ‘actions of Zionists” remark is a dead giveaway.
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@nonserviam
I was wondering what it would take to hit a nerve with you, Mr. “I’m in All Over Threads, Posting Negative Nonsense About Blacks.” All it took was for someone to talk about Jews, eh? That’s quite telling. The accusation of having an agenda to push, when coming from YOU of all people, just screams “pot meet kettle”.
I also liked the part where you intentionally left out the part where I explained how I’m not interested in anti-Semitism. All because you’re clearly not satisfied unless you can keep up your feelings of persecution. As that’s the only thing you can comment on, it seems.
And “no”, I don’t have any Jewish friends.
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@ nonserviam:
How do you know Zinn and Chomsky are Holocaust deniers and anti-Semitic?
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@Nonservium
This may be getting a bit off-topic, but even if Ashkenazim had ancestral ties to Israel, they still don’t have the right to take land that doesn’t belong to them.
That’s like me moving back into an old house of my great-great grandfather and telling the current residents to “get the f*ck out. This is the home of my ancestors. I am entitled to this land!”
That is one of the main reasons why I don’t get this argument. Ancestral ties doesn’t give anyone claim to land, so why would anyone, anti-Semites & Zionist alike, make this argument. It’s all dumb controversy to me…
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Seems to me that the real problem is clear here: everybody and everybodys mama are accusing each other of not being the right kind of jew, black or what ever, and not been suffering enough or the wrong way or what ever.
This is what the biggots, racists, neo nazis and their ilk are trying to do to all of you. They drop in and throw some stuff around and you grab it and run with it thinking: “hmm, this is a good idea, must be important, must be the truth”.
Instead of talking about the reasons why the genocide of blacks trough history has not been seen as important as the holocaust of the jews in american culture and media or why it has been seen as less important or why it has been hidden (or would the jewish holocaust have been hidden in America had the nazis won??), you spend your days arguing who is a “real jew”???? 😀
I have just two words for you: Get real. 😀
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Cynic,
I like your metaphor! It sums it up pretty well.
Yet I sympathize with Zionism. After the Holocaust, Jewish people around the world, but especially the European Jewry were extremely decimated. Such genocide isn’t easy to get over, and often solutions present themselves which seem like a good idea in theory, but in reality are just as bad as all the rest. Creating a Jewish nation-state seemed like a great idea to prevent any repeat of the Shoah again, and while I’m glad that my people have a homeland (at last) it’s difficult to reconcile that joy with the price paid daily to hold onto it. Especially when that price includes the bodies of civilians, of children.
But that said, Israel’s existence is a fact, and attempting to dismantle it now is impossible without creating further violence and discord.
But Chomsky and Zinn haven’t argued any of the positions Nonserviam ascribes to them, and he knows it. That nonserviam accuses people of being anti-Semitic because they disagree with him is telling. Especially since he doesn’t provide any evidence to support his position. Shoot, in my opinion Nonserviam is a closeted anti-Semite himself. Or at the least, an extreme reactionary.
Le sigh. Too many goyim these days seem to wannabe experts on Jews, but all they end up doing is showing how ignorant they are. I wonder if this is something other peoples go through? It seems like it happens to Black people often enough. With disastrous results.
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@zek: the swedes have always known better what is good for the finns, like for some 800 years and counting 😀
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Yes, I did realize that, nonserviam. It’s also part of the unspoken canard that the Mizrahi and Sephardic Jews of the Middle East and North Africa were all content with the oppression that was often meted out to them until they came under the influence of Ashkenazim and European Sephardim and got “uppity.”
Look how he argues that Ashkenazim are primarily the descendants of converts (despite that being irrelevant under Jewish law) because they historically spoke Yiddish– and he insists on this speculative history with certainty even though he admits he is not well read. I suppose he believes that since we are all conversing in English that we are all Anglo-Saxons.
Historically speaking, Sephardim spoke Ladino (a Romance language) as vernacular and note that Franklin is content with the notion that Sephardim are “real” or that the Beta Israel spoke Cushic languages as vernacular and he is content they are “real”, so his argument, besides lacking evidence, is not even being applied consistently: it’s his obsession with Jews and conspiracy theories.
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Hey, tribe members, shut up already. This post isn’t about us. It’s about Abagond’s people. Seriously, give it a damned rest. You’re hijacking. Colonizing. Like white people always do, eh?
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Jack, I really didn’t have a problem with Abagond’s initial statement beyond the quibble of “yes, it is true that there are many people are in fact dismissive of the way historical injustices against black people, but it is incorrect to say that there aren’t those who are dismissive of the Holocaust, or any other injustice against the Jews; your own post about Holocaust denial testifies to that.” I hope Abagond took my reply in the spirit of friendly debate.
I do, however, have a problem with Franklin and Tyrone infusing the conversation with their brands of antisemitism by which they present themselves as instinctive experts on both Jewish history and Judaism, since they are admittedly not well read on either. I only wish I could be an expert on something without education and training.
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Like I said, by their words and deeds.
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The master race is still being pursued.
“Mentally ill die 25 years earlier, on average” Marilyn Elias, USA TODAY 5/3/2007
The doctors responsible for the T-4 Euthanasia Program and Holocaust continued to work and teach their philosophy after the war.
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@ e-dub:
This is not an argument about equal time. It is about how two histories are viewed differently based on who the actors are. From a racist White American point of view:
1. The Holocaust was carried out by an enemy (= evil) state against white (= worthy) victims. How terrible!
2. Slavery was carried out by one’s own (= good) people against black (= unworthy) victims. Get over it!
Germans and especially anti-Semites can be expected to view the Holocaust differently, more like how whites in America view slavery, more like what I wrote in the post.
Pictures have an effect, but they do not drive the process.
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Right, like what in particular? Please give an example.
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Abagond,
I have to disagree with you on a couple of points:
Just as there are white Americans who are dismissive of the legacy of slavery or of Jim Crow, there are those who are dismissive of the legacy of the Holocaust. Your own post on the topic of Holocaust denial testifies to that, just as we have the examples of Tyrone and Franklin insisting that most of the Jews who were murdered weren’t “real Jews” anyway and engaged in some sort of trickery. Many Europeans are dismissive of the history of antisemitism in their countries– and they are just like the racist white American you describe in that regard.
I also have to point out to you, that “black” and “white” are only truly operative in the American context. In other parts of the world, there are long established racist attitudes where both hater and the hated are nearly indistinguishable by skin color. When Jews were oppressed by either Europeans or by Arabs, they were not perceived as “people of the same skin color” but as “Jews.” The white American racist does not see the Jew as “fellow white person.” When we talk about how racism actually functions: Jews, while they many have the ability to “pass” if they try really hard, really aren’t “white” in the social or political sense.
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As far as the case against Chomsky: He’s not a Holocaust denier, but he’s often downplayed the anti-Semitic and neo-Nazi motives of Holocaust deniers and defended their work as a legitimate academic pursuit– and essentially acted to make Holocaust denial more palatable on the political left even if he will not himself embrace the ideas.
Whether or not he should be termed an “anti-Semite” himself, he clearly has no problem aiding and abetting anti-Semites. To borrow a term used in the African American community, he’s the Jewish equivalent of an “Uncle Tom.”
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@ Ian:
1. What percentage of White Americans do you think are racist?
2. Of those who are racist, how many are also anti-Semitic? What about those who are not otherwise racist?
It seems like I think there are plenty of White Americans who are racist against blacks but not particularly anti-Semitic while you do not. Otherwise your disagreement does not make sense.
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I’m not convinced that somebody with strong racist hatred towards one other people is easily going to be filled with loving kindness towards another “alien” people.
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@Ian
Depends on the degree of “alien-ness”.
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@ Tyrone:So Hitler was a leftist,eh?Socialist even?Why would you believe such utter crap? Because his ideology was called “national socialism” (the emphasis is on “national”,by the way…)?Well,you must think that the GDR was democratic as well,then,lol!Or that the soviets (councils) had any power at all in the Soviet Union.Whatever you are smoking,I don’t want any of it.Dunce.
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Wow.
Seriously?
If only black folks could be privileged like the Jews?
I… don’t…even…
zek j evets is the only one talking sense in this whole thread, and the author of the post didn’t even bother replying.
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Ian: I’m not convinced that somebody with strong racist hatred towards one other people is easily going to be filled with loving kindness towards another “alien” people.
—-
The rejection of Jews, in Europe, was not racial. The concept of race, as we understand it, was not even developed. And while we Jews were certainly subjected to oppression as a separate people, it was the “rejection of Christ” which informed, characterized and drove that isolation, ghettoization and violence in Europe. It was religious.
The embrace of Jews in the US – especially by the same White Evangelicals who despise black people and who use black people as the litmus test for poverty, dissolution and degradation – is also religious.
These people (white racists, which number now includes formerly rejected peoples, such as the Irish, Italians and Poles) can and do maintain traditional American racial categories while fully embracing Jews as members of the dominant White tradition.
—-
My own family came to this country close to one hundred fifty years ago, from Italy, after living as Jews of varying degrees of assimilation and religiousness since at least the 1200s of the common era. When they arrived in the US, they were not rejected as Jews.
They were rejected as Italians, because at the time Italians were still treated as members of the “Southern” races of Europe – that is, dark people. As Italians, they lived in Italian communities, went to Italian shops, worked for Italian bosses, joined Italian speaking unions, and after embracing the surface Catholicism necessary to emigrate, attended Italian churches.
Their Jewishness was always nominal, because it was not racial in this country at the time. Especially in the cities of the North, and throughout much of the South, Jewishness was acceptable. It has always been treated as part of the American tradition.
It was only during the Red Scare – when Jewishness became associated with Bolshevism and radicalism in general – did American anti-semitism incorporate traditional American race trappings, using the existing White-Black norms to color those Jews who stood as such, especially when they were “pernicious” radicals.
American anti-semitism arose out of the context of institutionalized oppression of blacks, and when the threat of Bolshevism passed, the older, more ingrained cultural attitude towards Jews reasserted itself, again, as a national embrace of “Judeo-Christianity,” trenchant support of Israel, and religious identification.
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Sorry Jack, but if you’re familiar with the history of Jews in America, that sort of philo-Semitic behavior amongst Christians was almost unheard of until the post-WWII era and wasn’t remotely common until the 1980s– it certainly predates the Red Scare. Indeed, the term “Judeo-Christian” was only coined in the 1940s after WWII when Christian theologians and clergy realized that the Christian attitudes towards Jews bore responsibility for what had happened in Europe.
I’d suggest one begin with Leonard Dinnerstein’s Anti-Semitism in America. It’s a good overview that begins with the colonial era.
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I learned in African Civ that in 1904, the Germans massacred a bunch of Africans. I can’t remember the name exactly though. Maybe you know. It was on the same level of atrocity as what King Leopold did in the Congo.
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that its! you’d think I’d remember considering we only learned it a month ago but half the time I was tuning out because somehow the teacher made african civ more about african americans which I already took a class on the previous semester.
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Ian thal
Fundamentally, racism, as is expressed by white people, is characterized by a hierarchal nature. There’s a common (and most asinine) asssumption that racists loathe and despise all other races equally—this is quite untrue. I believe Tim Wise cited a study that proved that the darker an immigrant to the United States is, the less money they will be able to earn. I do think skin color makes a HUGE difference in one’s potential for success. Historically, the “blacks” who have made the social breakthroughs for the black race have been more lightly complexioned, even mixed. Do you really think Barack’s time getting elected would have really been so easy had he looked like Idi Amin? There is a relative regard in which the respectability of races is assessed and subsequently asserted by white people and I believe that the greatest determinant is skin color. In terms of economic success, the respective degrees of such minority races are as follows: Asians, Hispanics, blacks, Native Americans. I do believe Native Americans have been so socially and culturally ravaged by white American dominance that they are almost not a functioning group. I think a better indication of the racial hierarchal structure would be the status of their Hispanic brethren.
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kelvin
Historically, the “blacks” who have made the social breakthroughs for the black race have been more lightly complexioned, even mixed. Do you really think Barack’s time getting elected would have really been so easy had he looked like Idi Amin?
In a weird tie-in to the original post, I remember a great episode of The Daily Show where Jon Stewart talked about this. He had an “acceptable blackness meter” (or something like that) ranging from Thomas Jefferson to George Jefferson, and placed Obama somewhere in the middle. Classic.
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[…] […]
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[…] propoganda or scientific experimentation and a host of other evils. And as another said best, "what would happen if the Holocaust was seen the same way black history is in America?" Many blacks died in the Holocaust alongside others (more discussed here and here ), yet not many […]
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People do down play the holocaust, that said people also downplay slavery.
At least in the south, heard the “they were treated like family” more than once in my life.
Admitably my contact with Jews is minimal but it doesn’t seem like they dwell on the holocaust much and they actually do focus on the here and now.
Can’t say people ever mention genocide as “natural” though.
In my experience that was exactly how they thought the holocaust, brief mention of it, no pictures etc….no detailed events no real focus on Anne Frank’s diary and certainly no dwelling on Hitlers “Mein Kamf”.
Now College certainly went into more detail but thats how highschool or grade school.
Teach the Debate: Sounds more like something about teaching the bible in school than about the Holocaust or slavery.
Another thing to consider is the Jewish influence on Hollywood, they control to a larger extent what their image is that gets projected than black people do.
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@ V-4
That is interesting. Maybe it is different in different parts of America. Come to think of it there is probably a much higher proportion of Jewish schoolteachers in and near New York, which is what I what I know – and what the post is based on.
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Here is something strange to me. The posters here are typing “N@zi”. I have never seen this before – is this an “N” word now? Does spelling this word invite irrational defensiveness and umbrage to some people so that we cannot exercise a frank discussion? Or does the comment get filtered. Let’s try it. Nazi.
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@ arydant
Nazi was a moderated word because it is a word common among racist trolls.
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Thanks. it seems strange that you would have to flag that, but if it points out the trolls I suppose it is a useful tool.
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My comment is that it is all wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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[…] If the Holocaust was black history […]
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[…] If the Holocaust was black history […]
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Jews are told all the time not only to get over the holocaust, but THAT IT NEVER ACTUALLY HAPPENED. And not just by white NeoNazis. By African Americans and Latinos. Facts.
We talk about the holocaust but not that it was not a unique event in Jewish history. In 2000 years there’s never been a single century devoid of Jewish enslavement, exile, pogroms, mass genocide. Literally. Juden stars were not a German Nazi invention. They’ve been imposed on Jews countless times over numerous centuries.
The holocaust didn’t end in 1945. It continued with Jews stranded in concentration camps under allied powers for a decade, Jews still mass murdered by pogroms if they dared try to return to their former homes. Nobody would take us. Then we lived in more camps in Israeli deserts. For a decade more. And THEN North Africa and the Middle East inflicted pogroms, genocide and forced exile upon their Jews over the last 60 years. Refugees from Africa and Middle East. Exiled from Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Morocco, Libya, Eritrea, Oman, Sudan, Somalia, Ethiopia, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, TransJordan, Syria, Turkey. These Jews who lived in these now-Arab lands centuries if not millennia before Arabs settled the areas or even the dawn of Islam, lost far more by being violently exiled in the last 60 years than they gained inhabiting the tiny sliver of land now known as Israel. 50% of the population of Israel is Mizrahi Jews who’ve never left North African or Middle East region. Brown and black Jews yet we hear Israel called racist and an apartheid state.
We are told to move on. That we need to get over it. We’ve had a holocaust Remembrance Day for 11 whole years. Total. And we are told it never happened. Google it. I dare you.
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Oh. And I have two children. Both have participated in black history month and projects since kindergarten. They’re now 15 and 11. 9th and 5th grade. Neither have ever learned one thing about the holocaust on school. In Chicago in 2017. Not. One. Mention. Ever.
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@Melala
“50% of the population of Israel is Mizrahi Jews who’ve never left North African or Middle East region. Brown and black Jews yet we hear Israel called racist and an apartheid state.”
Are you aware of the horrible treatment of Mizrahim and Separdim in the State of Israel by the Ashkenazim? Housing discrimination, separate schools, illegal adoption rings that separated Mizrahi parents and children. Ethiopian Jews and Ugandan Jews are treated even worse. Arab Israelis and the Palestinians are at the very bottom of Israeli society.
Israel thoroughly deserves its label as racist and apartheid——-because that is what it is: a racist colonial settler state.
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Either way, the American way is to push slavery under the rug and keep black people down , listening to the average American will make me seem like a terrorist or mad black man . But it’s true that every thing in America is for whites “example” if your black here in 2017 and you were born in a metropolitan Area in 1995 and earlier then you can understand and agree that your community has changed. Mine for example is a side of tow the goes for poor black to rich black as you ride through the community, but I’m the past 5 years we’ve gotten a starbuck chick fil A and a while foods, not by mistake but because whites have moved to the area and it makes the city look bad in there eyes to live next to us . Push us out move them in AMERICA!!!!
I love all people but it’s the American government from day one that separated us as people and they want to keep black & Whites separate , it creates a distraction to keep the wealthy rich and the poor down. I’ve had my whole life to think about it and I see myself as an individual In the world , I’m not African American not African just a dark skin man living in America. Why should I care about a country that dont care about me and I can’t go back to africa cause I know nothing about it don’t know my roots,
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Another pseudo-Black troll….
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There are no slavery deniers because slavery really happened.
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It’s completely different. Slavery wasn’t meant to kill blacks, it was meant to exploit them for cheap labor. The Holocaust was meant to kill Jews.
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Paul,
You often sound like a stereotypical neocon. abagond was on to something here in a way. Why is the Holocaust the only event of alleged mass murder one is unable to question or seriously debate? Say the Russian communists killed 1 million, 10 million or 100 million Christian Russians–say the Holodomor never really happened–question the numbers in any other supposed genocide–and no one bats an eye (and all those numbers have been debated), but dare to question the “6 million” and you can get thrown in jail in many places. Abagond says “in America they count as Almost Real People”. I’d say they count as more than real people (if real people in abagond’s mind are White Christians), as no one cares about White Christians killed in genocide apparently.
I too was taught about the horrors of the Holocaust in school and it wasn’t until much later that I learned there was almost no documentary evidence of the supposedly massive Final Solution plan (when the Germans famously put everything in writing), that examiners who went to the “death camps” found zero evidence of gas chambers (no traces of Zyklon B gas use outside of much smaller delousing chambers) and that there’s no way such chambers and related cremations could have functioned in the official numbers described or that the Holocaust narrative didn’t exist at all in the immediate post war period. It wasn’t a question of not knowing numbers, it wasn’t mentioned at all in memoirs from people like Eisenhower, Churchill and De Gaulle who had every reason to paint the Nazis in the worst possible light.
“Three of the best known works on the Second World War are General Eisenhower’s Crusade in Europe (New York: Doubleday [Country Life Press], 1948), Winston Churchill’s The Second World War (London: Cassell, 6 vols., 1948-1954), and the Mémoires de guerre of General de Gaulle (Paris: Plon, 3 vols., 1954-1959). In these three works not the least mention of Nazi gas chambers is to be found.”
Worth reading the full take by Ron Unz (himself Jewish) to make sure you are getting a full picture of different perspectives: https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-holocaust-denial/
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