Race realism, in the strictest sense of the word, is the belief that the races of mankind are biologically real, as a fact of nature and not just a social construct, something created by the rules and prejudices of society.
In a broader sense it means realism about race as opposed to political correctness. Not only are races a fact of nature, but so are the differences between them, particularly in intelligence and behaviour. Something that the politically correct stick their heads in the sand about and deny – leading America into unwise policies on affirmative action, immigration and so on.
Some of those who call themselves race realists:
- David Duke,
- Steve Sailer,
- Jared Taylor of American Renaissance,
- J Philippe Rushton of the Pioneer Fund,
- Charles Murray of “The Bell Curve”,
- HBDers, the scientific wing of race realism. If race is a fact of nature, then it can and should be studied by science.
Race realists say the mainstream press and top universities in America are are controlled by the left and its ideas of political correctness, spreading their lies and shaming people out of openly expressing their honest opinions.
Most race realists seem to think they are not racists. Because to them racism requires hatred. So the belief that some races are better than others is not racist: it is simply the honest truth.
Most race realists in America think whites are better than blacks and Latinos. Some are against Jews while others are Jewish themselves!
Oddly, Latinos and Jews are not real races in any biological sense. Not even blacks: in America you can be 34% African and still pass for white – or you can be as little as 12% African and still count as black!
By the 1970s most biologists gave up the idea of there being more than one living human race. Race realists say it is because American universities fell under control of the left. Biologists say it is because there is only one living subspecies of Homo sapiens or Homo anything: Homo sapiens sapiens.
At the genetic level, there is shockingly little difference between people from different parts of the world. From Denmark to Kenya, from Senegal to Siberia, there is less genetic variation among humans than you would find even in a small troupe of chimps. So much so that to account for the genetics it seems that Homo sapiens must have been nearly wiped out 75,000 years ago (the Toba catastrophe theory).
It is not just since the 1970s that biology has been moving in a direction against race realism: for nearly 200 years scientists who took their ideas from anti-black racism have been on the losing side – from polygenism to craniometry to parallel evolution to the evolution of hominid intelligence outside of Africa.
Science, to its great credit, can and does, at least in the long run, rise above the political and social beliefs that support slavery, colonialism, neocolonialism and racism.
– Abagond, 2011.
See also:
- J. Philippe Rushton and Arthur Jensen: “Wanted: More Race Realism, Less Moralistic Fallacy” – good summary and bibliography
- examples
- Anti-black racism as a guide to science
- Mephisto on race & IQ
- Is race biologically real?
By the 1970s most biologists gave up the idea of there being more than one living human race. Race realists say it is because American universities fell under control of the left and their ideas of political correctness.
Yes, because US biologists are the only scientists on Earth and situation in the US is the only one that matters.
Many scientists – race realists, I presume – worked really hard on finding working definition of race as a biological fact. They all failed. They all failed not because genetic differences can’t be observed between various humans (after all, if there weren’t mDNA differences, we wouldn’t know much about human maternal ancestry). They all failed because genetic differences do not support social races, races that divide people into (pardon my words) “black”, “white”, “yellow” and “red”.
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Also (and I know I wrote this many times, but I’ll repeat it anyway): the fact something is a social construct doesn’t make it any less real.
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***By the 1970s most biologists gave up the idea of there being more than one living human race***
Instead of race, they tend to refer to population groups. These populations tend to correspond very closely to traditional racial categories.
infoproc.blogspot.com/2009/06/genetic-clustering-40-years-of-progress.html#
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@Schartz
Wow… I just got done Crtl+c and Crtl+v’ing(I understand. I just get lazy!) about population clusters that correspond closely to traditional racial categories, but I guess I’ll do it again here.
“A clustering of populations that does correspond to classical continental “races” can be acheived by using a special class of non-functional DNA, microsatellites. By selecting among microsatellites, it is possible to find a set that will cluster together African populations, European populations, and Asian populations, etc. These selected microsatellite DNA markers are not typical of genes, however, but have been chosen precisely because they are “maximally informative” about group differences. Thus, they tell us what we already knew about the differences between populations of the classical “races” from skin color, face shape, and hair form. They have the added advantage of allowing us to make good estimates of the amount of intermixture that has occurred between populations as a result of migrations and conquests.”
http://raceandgenomics.ssrc.org/Lewontin/
If their is no greater similarity between E. Euros and W. Euros than their is between Euros and Afros than that pretty much proves that their is NO such thing as a white race biologically! It isn’t that hard to understand.
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Race realist are just a sad result of our sick society. Growing up I NEVER used to think about races possibly being biologically different. I mean yeah I realized social differences, but the idea that races were naturally different never crossed my mind. I just recently learned about “race realist” last year.
I can’t imagine someone taking up this type of thinking out of nowhere. I mean if your’e not a racist how does one get into race realism?
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That’s because race-as-a-social-construct is projected upon race-as-a-biological-reality. Obviously, the match isn’t perfect, which allows race-denial with a straight face.
I know I wrote this many times, but I’m repeating it anyway.
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David Duke does not belong in the list.
No HBDer would call him just a race realist. As the former head of the KKK (maybe he still is, don’t know) he’s clearly a racist bigot by older, narrower more reasonable definitions. He may call himself one, but he’s just trying to cheaply cloak himself in scientific reasonableness.
The rest are not white supremacists or bigoted racists.
Jared Taylor might be borderline. He is a white nationalist, though a very reasonable, highly intelligent and educated (Yale), and widely traveled one (he grew up in Japan), from what I’ve read or seen in video clips from him directly. He’s not a white supremacist. I don’t know exactly what white nationalist things he advocates though, because I’ve only read his site a very little bit, but I’ve never read him saying outrageous or hate filled things. He probably advocates stuff like whites should lobby for their own racial/ethnic interests, just as other races/ethniticies do in America.
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***If their is no greater similarity between E. Euros and W. Euros than their is between Euros and Afros***
@ The Cynic,
There is though. The genetic the distance between two neighboring western European populations is of order one in units of standard deviations and the distance to the Russian cluster is several times larger than that — say, 3 or 4.
The genetic distance from Russian to Chinese and Japanese clusters is about 18, and the distance of southern Europeans to the Nigerian cluster is about 19.
You can see this in table 5 of European Journal of Human Genetics (2008) 16, 1413–1429;
nature.com/ejhg/journal/v16/n12/fig_tab/ejhg2008210t5.html#figure-title
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@ The Cynic,
Just another point regarding Lewontin, it is useful to read about the ‘Lewontin Fallacy’:
“Further technical comment: you may have read the misleading statistic, spread by the intellectually dishonest Lewontin, that 85% percent of all human genetic variation occurs within groups and only 15% between groups. The statistic is true, but what is often falsely claimed is that this breakup of variances (larger within group than between group) prevents any meaningful genetic classification of populations. This false conclusion neglects the correlations in the genetic data that are revealed in a cluster analysis. See here for a simple example which shows that there can be dramatic group differences in phenotypes even if every version of every gene is found in two groups — as long as the frequency or probability distributions are distinct. Sadly, understanding this point requires just enough mathematical ability that it has eluded all but a small number of experts.) Update: see here for an explanation in pictures of Lewontin’s fallacy.”
infoproc.blogspot.com/2008/01/no-scientific-basis-for-race.html#
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This is nonsense. Only some did, and they did for heavily ideological reasons.
There’s only one living human species for sure, and the different races may not be different enough to be different subspecies. But there’s plenty of observable difference, and plenty of discoverable differences where aren’t just about appearance.
Denying the biological reality of race is an entirely ideological effort, grounded in the truth that all humans do have common ancestors if you go back far enough (around 80-100k years). If you go less far back, they don’t, and cluster into six major continental scale geographic races:
1) ssAfricans
2) Aust. Aborigines and Papuans
3) Caucasians or Western Eurasians
4) N Eastern Asians
5) SE Asias, or Austronesians
6) Amerindians
None of this proves which of these groups are smarter than which others on average, or other phenotype differences. Other and so far non directly genetic evidence is needed for that.
However these breeding group divisions (for the most part, except at clinal junctures) and evidence from DNA about roughly when the divisions occurred, do show that there was plenty of time for evolution, to create significant superficial and non superficial group differences on average. Blacks (who have large majority black ancestry) look very different from whites. They also have cycle cell anemia and a related greater resistance to malaria in much higher frequencies than whites.
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@Schartz
The problem with you and others is that you do not understand how populations are clustered and what these clusters mean.
Microsatellite short tandem repeats are used to cluster populations. Microsatellites are not genes. They do not code for proteins. All they do is take up space in our DNA. DNA markers for ancestry are not race markers. Gene variants being more common in certain populations than others do not equal race differences. This is not politically correct mumbo jumbo. This is scientific fact.
btw your link says nothing of about non-Euro variation. South European to Nigerian doesn’t say anything about W. Euros to E. Euros & Euros to Afros either.
Your Lewontin link didn’t work. The article I cited was actually a reply to Lewontin’s NYT op-ed piece. Not Lewontin himself.
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It’s only been in the last 10 or 15 years that the left in universities has been pushing hard the meme that “race does not exist” or that “race is just a social construct, it has no biological reality”. it’s done so not for scientific reasons but for ideological ones.
It did so hard only a few years after The Bell Curve came out in 1995, and wide numbers of people realized what the left in academia and the media had been keeping from them that: 1) blacks have 1 standard deviation lower IQ than whites on average, and corresponding lower percentages of very intelligent people, and 2) there’s a lot of evidence that a substantial part of the reason why (maybe 40-60%) is heritable or genetic, under American conditions.
First it tried to deny that IQ tests are any good at measuring intelligence, or that it matters in life, and then that they’re biased against blacks.
Then it tried to assert the studes Hernstein and Murray used for 2) weren’t any good.
The it moved on to the “race doesn’t exist” or “race is just social construct not a biological reality” — which common sense tells anyone not immersed in leftist academic dogma is nonsense.
So too does the work of many human population geneticists show that it’s nonsense.
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The Cynic
You think educated or uneducated Chinese or Japanese or Koreans or Thais or ssAfricans think race doesn’t exist, or that it’s just a social construct and isn’t based or real biological ancestry?
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The Cynic–
Yes they are.
They’re markers for when ancestors split apart from interbreeding with other groups much.
There markers for both major continental scale geographic races, usually divided into 6 for the evidence including relatedness and time of splitting, and for sub groups with each major group, which can be called sub races, or sub sub races.
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@Doug1
We are not the only sick society in the world.
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There’s a reason why Doug1’s ideas about race haven’t been widely accepted by the scientific community–it’s wrong, dead wrong. Charles Darwin was able to convince the biologists of his day about evolution in spite of social pressures. If it stands the scrutiny of the scientific method, then it’s science and will be accepted no matter how unpopular or uncool it is. End of story.
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@Doug1
We have already determined you don’t care about science. All you care about is justifying your racism and/or political motives. You keep repeating things that are scientifically incorrect
Question: Did you take the time out to actually read the last link I gave you on the Mephisto IQ post?
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Mira–
Yes they do point to those social races among others:
black = ssAfrican biological major geographic race
white= European branch found in the US of the Caucasian W.Eurasian MG race
yellow = NE Asian MG race
red = Amerindian MG race
The colors used aren’t very accurate in the last two cases but that’s not the point.
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Doug1 is a racist.
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The Cynic–
You’ve not remotely done any such thing. And the later isn’t the case.
But sure I draw some political conclusions.
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The Cynic–
I speed read it because it was obvious how ideological and relevant fact light it was. I responded briefly about how little impressed I was with it, and how far away it was from the relevant science on other thread.
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Doug1 said,”The truth is racist.”
And kept implying the leftist bias in the scientific academia. Well then,
The truth is liberal.
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Calculator
Cavalli-Sforza’s work which goes to whether “major and more minor geographic populations (aka races) exist “, and that of others who have followed in his footsteps, is widely accepted by geneticists. It has withstood the scrutiny of the scientific method.
Most of those commenting here are just in furious denial.
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Doug1, I admire your devotion to the truth. Keep fighting the good fight.
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“Cavalli-Sforza’s work which goes to whether “major and more minor geographic populations (aka races) exist “, and that of others who have followed in his footsteps, is widely accepted by geneticists.”
Not by my entire biology department.
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“It has withstood the scrutiny of the scientific method.”
And this is coming from a man without a science degree or scientific background.
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PC lies are leftist/liberal.
The truth is racist.
But the truth isn’t bigoted or race hating or prejudiced against individuals solely because of their race.
The truth is that there are racial differences not all of which are trivial. Many call anyone “racist” who points out racial differences and even cultural differences along ethnic lines, especially any which aren’t advantageous to “disadvantaged groups”.
It’s in the sense of that absurdly expanded and over broad definition that the truth is racist.
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Calculator–
Your biology department is not studying human genetics and population genetics.
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Calculator–
I have a social science degree and a top five law school degree.
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Social science degree from a top five university.
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There is a difference between the social sciences the the hard sciences.
The hard sciences are called “hard,” well, because they are difficult for most people like biology, chemistry, physics, genetics, microbiology, etc.
The social sciences fall under the humanities department and include subjects such as history, sociology, anthropology, economics, etc.
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Doug,
Please give me your reaction to the following:
http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com/entry/62112/
I would love to get your thoughts.
Thanks!
O.
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“Your biology department is not studying human genetics and population genetics.”
That’s quite an assumption considering you don’t even know what college I’m at.
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***Your Lewontin link didn’t work. The article I cited was actually a reply to Lewontin’s NYT op-ed piece. Not Lewontin himself.***
The link you provided was written by Lewontin in response to a NY Times Op-Ed by Armand Leroi.
Try copying the link I provided into your web browser, I didn’t post the full thing to save time waiting for it to be approved.
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***Microsatellite short tandem repeats are used to cluster populations. Microsatellites are not genes. They do not code for proteins. All they do is take up space in our DNA. DNA markers for ancestry are not race markers. Gene variants being more common in certain populations than others do not equal race differences.***
You don’t have to just look at microsatellites, the results are the same regardless of the typs of genetic markers you choose.
“With this as background, it is not surprising that numerous human population genetic studies have come to the identical conclusion – that genetic differentiation is greatest when defined on a continental basis. The results are the same irrespective of the type of genetic markers employed, be they classical systems [5], restriction fragment length polymorphisms (RFLPs) [6], microsatellites [7,8,9,10,11], or single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) [12]. For example, studying 14 indigenous populations from 5 continents with 30 microsatellite loci, Bowcock et al. [7] observed that the 14 populations clustered into the five continental groups, as depicted in Figure 1. ”
Categorization of humans in biomedical research: genes, race and disease Risch et al (2002)
http://genomebiology.com/2002/3/7/comment/2007
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@Doug1
You obviously have political motivations. Although personally I believe that you are a racist also. And not just “the truth is racist, racist.” I think you have hatred for Blacks and possibly other racial groups.
The link I gave was not idealistic at all. Its “race isn’t biologically real” thesis just didn’t fit your prejudices. Most of it was simply fact w/o opinion. When you tell me why Noah A. Rosenberg and Marcus W. Feldman are not real scientist and why their work isn’t relevant to science, maybe I’ll believe you are genuinely searching for the truth.
@Caculator
“There’s a reason why Doug1′s ideas about race haven’t been widely accepted by the scientific community–it’s wrong, dead wrong… If it stands the scrutiny of the scientific method, then it’s science and will be accepted no matter how unpopular or uncool it is. End of story.”
100% co-sign.
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“But the DNA sequences studied by Rosenberg and his colleagues are not genes. Known by geneticists as “microsatellite short tandem repeats” (and more colloquially as “junk DNA”), they do not code for proteins, but just sit there taking up space in our DNA. Mutations in DNA sequences that don’t code for anything are not affected by natural and sexual selection. They are neither selected for nor against but are simply passed down, generation to generation. Comparing these accumulated mutation patterns can provide clues to ancient population movements. But they have no effect on physical traits such as skin color or hair form or blood type.
In other words, the study accomplished the same thing our eyes do everyday. You can look at someone and stand a pretty good chance of identifying the continent where that person’s recent ancestors lived, especially if you’re gazing at someone whose family has resided in the same place for several generations – as did all the subjects of the study.
But what’s that got to do with “race”? We all have ancestors from elsewhere – and if we go back far enough, about 70,000 or so years ago, all our ancestors can be traced back to Africa. But if our idea of race assumes that different groups each share among themselves a different suite of inborn traits, then we have to ask, “What difference makes a difference?” Certainly not micro-satellite short tandem repeats.”
Indeed, the Rosenberg team found they could cluster the individuals in their sample into several different statistically significant groups, only one of which corresponded to five continents. They also found that no matter which clustering scheme they used, individuals could be placed in more than one group.
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***Certainly not micro-satellite short tandem repeats.”***
As I noted above, it doesn’t matter what markers you use. SNPs, STRs, no matter how you choose them: randomly or based on their “informativeness”, it is relatively easy to classify DNA into the correct continental origin.
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Someone should explain to these people that they are full of shit being full of themselves.
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@Schwartz
I am not familiar with those population clustering methods(SNPs, STRs, RFLPs, etc). However, the fact that the authors of the study list microsatellites along with the other population categorizing methods as a reason for race being biologically valid is highly suspicious.
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@Cynic
Most people group with others physically based on their region of origin. Since racial classifications are generally based on phenotype and a person’s physical features are obviously caused by his/her genes, then I don’t understand how anyone can say that race is not biological or genetic.
Yes, markers on the junk DNA are mainly informative for showing degree of relatedness, but there has to be differences on the coding region of the genome for peoples from the same regions of the world to have the same phenotype.
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Well, doug has stated it now twice openly and I thank him for it. He is a racist. He just does not like the fact that hate as a feeling gets always connected to racism. You see, doug does not hate blacks, he knows that they are dumber than him, he being a white guy.
And I understand this very well. I’ve met racist like you all over the world, from my neighbours to some very nice elderly boers on the other side fo the globe. They do not hate n*****s. They just know that blacks are lower life forms.
As for sagat, schwartz and all you guys, as much as you like to argue, your idea of “race realism” is a political construction. Just like HBD it likes to present itself as a scientific idea, but in reality it is not. It is an political idea, worldview based on an idea and ideological construction around it.
The reason why you guys can not see it, is that you have not lived next to anything like it in your lives. We have. Mira knows this better than 99% of anybody here. Soviet communism was a similar ideological construction. For its supporters it was science, for anybody with an ounce of brain it was a mish mash of ideas, political zelotism, bits and pieces of social science thrown in etc. That is excately like your ideology.
I know it is hard pill to swallow but there it is. It is just an ideology. Not a science, not a truth, but a sociopolitical construction, belief system if you will, which for some reason feels good to you. It gives you comfort and an idea of clearness in a confusing and unpredictable world. That is what this is all about.
Now, me, I know that the world if a messy place. It is not a clean neat place of order. It is a chaos. But for that reason, I love it. I love the people, be they black, white or any other color. I love the foods, cultures, the whole mess with all my heart. Why? Because that is the reality.
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You are right, Sam, I do know what’s like to live around heavy ideological construction.
However, one important correction: I didn’t live in Soviet communism (well, socialism). My country rejected that kind of socialism. As a result, we lived better than countries under Soviet Union. (One would argue we lived much better than today, but saying something like that is a huge no-no these days, so you didn’t hear this from me! 😉 ).
But the more I learn about the West and the more I see its internal problems, I realize there’s as much ideological construction there.
Basically, there’s a heavy brainwashing going on. Ideology might be different, but the scale of brainwashing isn’t.
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@mira: I stand corrected. Yugoslavia was different from the soviet block. Still, pretty heavy ideology there too. And yes, you are absolutely correct about the west: we do have propaganda and ideologies too. 😀
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The Cynic–
We are in fact among the least “racist” societies in the world, where there is either significant racial diversity, or extensive knowledge of other peoples (e.g. Japan and Korea for the later type case).
You’re deeply immersed in leftist cultural Marxist in origin politically correct dogma. Cultural Marxists such as the Frankfort School, Franz Boas, Eric Fromm, Herbert Marcuse and the rest of the New Left that flowered her in the 60s as a mass student movement but has roots going back to the 30s and in the case of Boas, the 20s.
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Mira–
Poland and Hungary and later Czechoslovakia tried to resist Communist socialism as well, but were no match for the Red Army.
Your country wasn’t either. It was simply given a pass by Stalin because Marshall Tito was an ally in the fight against the Nazis, in the form of being the leader of a large group of guerrilla fighters against them.
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Sam–
“racist, racist, racist”.
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Sagat–
Exactly.
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@Doug1
“leftist cultural Marxist in origin politically correct dogma”
I don’t adhere to those ideologies. I am not a Marxist and to be honest I hate political correctness. The only time I ever brought politics into this debate is when I was mocking you. I have never revealed my political beliefs, mainly bc I have no political motives in regards to HDB.
Instead of saying “we don’t live in the only sick society”, I should of said most sane people don’t believe in any SIGNIFICANT biological differences between races. W/o even thinking about it that is what I believed growing up. Now I know your not gonna tell me children are born leftist cultural Marxist bc they don’t have these ideas about inherent racial differences?
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@Doug1
Racial diversity does not equal racial harmony. The USA is not a melting pot, it’s more like a stew. Yes, we live in a country with many races, but most of us don’t grow up around them.
Pointing out that Korea or Japan are racist countries doesn’t say anything about the racism in our country either. It also doesn’t make it any better.
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sam–
No I don’t think all blacks are less intelligent that me.
I do KNOW as a matter of scientifically incredibly well established fact (it’s been called the fundamental constant of sociology by La Griffe du Lion) that African Americans are on average 1 standard deviation (which is a lot) less intelligent than whites, and that that relationship prevails all along the respective bell curves of statistical distribution of IQ in each population.
I also know that the evidence very strongly suggests that a lot, maybe half, maybe a bit more, of the reason for that under American environmental conditions is heritable or genetic, with the rest being environmental, and probably predominantly cultural, the failure in finding other large environmental causative agents in the social science studies suggests.
This results in only 1% of black Americans having IQs higher than 120, or the threshold of knowledge professional intelligence, whereas 9% of whites are smarter than that.
From this and other things I infer that most of the gap between blacks and whites in school performance is due to lower black IQ. Secondarily in the worst urban schools I think it’s also due to less intelligent blacks being more aggressive and more disruptive, combined with excessively permissive attitudes toward school disciple, brought on by e.g. ACLU lawsuits, and other leftist shaming and lawsuit attacking of “racist differential” disciplining of “people of color” — never mind who’s differentially doing the disrupting.
To talk about that is “racist, racist, racist”.
In general, in many, many areas of American life these days, to talk about the truth in an effort to be find at least partial solutions, is “racist, racist, racist”.
To want the US to restrict the mass immigration of historically low performing unto the fourth generation groups of peoples, such as the slice of heavily AmerIndian peasant class Mexicans and Central Americans we tend to get, or Haitians, is called “racist, racist, racist” — when it’s simply based upon the observed long continuing truth of low performance. Yeah in general I don’t want any more mass immigration, illegal or legal, of NAMs. Literaly that’s non Asian Americas (the term was coined by an Asian Indian American), but really it’s groups that American elites feel they have to give affirmative action to, in it’s various forms.
“Racist, racist, racist”.
And important to the survival of this as a great nation.
Such at while
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*non Asian minorities = NAMs. But it’s really AA getting minorities, few to none of whom are Asian – among the Asians we let in.
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The Cynic–
That is one of the Great Lies, George Orwell 1984 style in scope and pervasiveness.
Most smart and sane people, and most of everyone else DOES.
Most leftists think blacks are less intelligent, or do when they mature a bit and see more of the world first hand and diverse. They just lie about it extensively, including to themselves.
Why? PC has made that essential to do in public, to maintain any kind of elite status or career, for the most part.
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Some of us are more able to think and see outside the box of today’s politically correct social constructs.
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The Cynic–
Show me a country who’s people aren’t racist by your use of that term.
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The Cynic–
You’re nonetheless deeply enmeshed in it’s taboos and belief system.
The genius of cultural Marxism created Political Correctness is that the vast majority of it’s adherents aren’t cultural Marxists, or anyway don’t self identify as such. They none the less are ensnared by such nostrums as “that’s blaming the victim” (which presupposes immoral oppression as opposed to winners and losers), sexism!! (which presupposes the scientifically wrong ideology that there are no significant sex differences other than plumbing) and racism!! (which presupposes similar).
It does so by a system of moral taboos, the breaking of which with prostrate subsequent apology, threatens to and often does cast one out of polite and elite society and careers. It’s censorship by after the fact punishment of all in knowledge working careers and levels of society, though more in some than others.
It’s breaking down now more and more, due to the internet.
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The Soviet system of censorship also increasing broke down during the 70s and especially 80s. Disillusionment and obvious untruths was part of it. Systems of clandestinely circulating samizdat pamphlets and what not was another part of it.
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sam–
Yes principally the taboos that fall under the rubric of Political Correctness.
My primary motivation in the areas I’ve addressed on this blog is to fight against that propaganda and those ideologies, as a matter of intellectual honesty and clarity.
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The Cynic
Right. In fact it essentially never does.
That’s what Putnam (of Harvard) found in his massive sample size social research done over a number of years. Extensive racial/ethnic diversity in a local community in fact tends to reduce social cohesion and civic minded pursuits, from volunteering to attending PTA conferences to participating in a bowling league.
He delayed finishing writing up and releasing these massive and findings because he’s ideologically left/liberal and was worried about what it said the true impact of diversity on a society is.
Myself I enjoy the right kinds of diversity among smart people at elite levels. I don’t think mass level wide diversity including people who tend to not be fully competitive at middle class and up levels is good for a society. Some amounts than can and want to assimilate fairly readily, fine. Such as different Euro groups to the US.
NE Asians also seem to work out well. They may tend to stay fairly separate but not nearly as much as blacks and they are an economic and technology plus. Lots of intermarriage. White smart nerds seem to like NE Asian girls and vice versa quite a bit. The smart slice of Asian Indians we let in so far are also working out, though they’re yet more separatist.
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The Cynic–
Yes I do have political motivations as well. Though the truth is that many of them came as I was lifting the PC veil from my eyes and afterwards, rather than before.
Yeah of course I want affirmative action, all related “positive” government sanctioned racial (and gender) discrimination abolished, including government “disadvantaged minority” and female set asides, and “disparate impact” assumes equal racial and gender ability in everything on average, EEOC “disparate impact” tests for discrimination.
I want the dialogue on why there’s a racial gap in schools achievement to get real.
But then too I want teacher’s unions to be made illegal which doesn’t have anything much to do with HBD. Though it would help black kids the most. Who I care about doing as well as they can. I also want a return to firmer schools discipline for similar reasons, and again that will help urban black kids the most.
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Re: the “advantages” of ever more mass level diversity, meaning a smaller percentage of white aka Euro Americans:
The Shi’ites argue that the minority Sunni rulers of Bahrain have been trying, in effect, to elect a new people by importing Sunni mercenaries from poorer countries and putting them on the path to citizenship. …
No kidding.
It’s funny how much more readily the American MainStream Media grasps how unfair it is for the government to elect a new people in Bahrain—while they cheer it on in the U.S.
http://isteve.blogspot.com/2011/02/government-electing-new-people-in.html
But it’s “racist, racist, racist” to want to stop letting in some many poor performing and crime prone Mexicans and Central Americans, but not be too worried about smaller numbers of high skilled high IQ NE Asians.
So it’s banished from open discussion in the mainstream media.
Yeah that’s a political motivation. You betcha.
Really more like a preservation of national greatness motivation, but whatever.
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@Doug1
Dude, you’re a classic example of what happens in a society that refuses to talk about race freely and frankly. You do not have the scientific knowledge to understand genetic researches on race and yet here you are, saying that black people are biologically less intelligent than people from other races. How do you know this? Statistics can only give us data, before we draw any inference from these data we need to be sure all the factors contributing to what we are collecting data on has been taken into account. Statistics based inferences have their flaws, being a member of the ‘superior race’ and a student of social science you should know this. Intelligence itself is very hard to define, whether IQ tests are a good measure of intelligence is hotly debated, the definition of race is unclear, there is no genetic proof as of yet that indicates the existence of traits unique to what we call a particular race (based on their appearance and known ancestry), yet you are sure blacks are inferior. A person of the master race should know better.
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Hey Abagond, is the post on Affirmative Action coming?
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Yes. it is coming, despite appearances to the contrary.
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anglesanddimensions
How do you explain the fact that a large study by liberal researchers found that black students from families earning in the highest quartile scored LOWER on the SAT on average than white student from families earning in the LOWEST quartile of income?
How did their environment cause this result, as opposed to their genes, including the tendency of children’s IQ to regress towards their ancestral race’s mean IQ from that of their parents?
http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2007/10/james-watson-tells-inconvenient-truth_296.php
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One of the liberal researchers who did that large study remarked “when you get results like these, they make you want to cry they’re so awful”.
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“How did their environment cause this result, as opposed to their genes, ”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/331802/racism_may_cause_low_birth_weights.html
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jasOnburns–
Occam’s razor, a bedrock principle of science that used in almost all areas of sciences that are PC highly sensitive, suggest the reasons for the black/white large gap in IQ is at least partly genetic, with feedbacks of genetic differences into culture.
What do I mean by these feedbacks? People and groups tend to practice and emphasize what they’re competitively better at, and relatively neglect other areas. Those naturally physically gifted tend to like sports and exercising their muscles. High IQ people tend to love to read not only what’s assigned but other things out of interest, and to solve math and other puzzles, and thus exercise their brains. Black culture tends to emphsize music and sports and and derides studying or volunteering in class as “acting white”. Not always in all groups but it’s a big tendency.
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@ Doug.
from the Stereotype threat article I linked.
“Although decreased performance is the most recognized consequence of stereotype threat, studies have shown that it can also lead individuals to blame themselves for perceived failures, self-handicap, discount the value and validity of tests and other performance tasks, distance themselves from negatively stereotyped groups, and disengage from situations and environments that are perceived as threatening.
Over the long-term, the chronic experience of stereotype threat may lead individuals to disidentify with the domain in which they are experiencing the threat. For example, a woman may stop seeing herself as “a math person” after experiencing a series of situations in which stereotype threat was experienced. Disidentification is thought to be a psychological coping strategy by which an individual is able to maintain self-esteem in the face of failure.”
So maybe this feedback you’re talking about originates not with genetics but with stereotypes. It would seem that there is actually more evidence to support that theory anyway, so if you really were following Occams razor that’s the explanation you would go with. Of course your ideology wont allow for that so you’ll continue to lie to yourself and avoid the obvious. Have fun with that.
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Doug said:
“How do you explain the fact that a large study by liberal researchers found that black students from families earning in the highest quartile scored LOWER on the SAT on average than white student from families earning in the LOWEST quartile of income?
How did their environment cause this result, as opposed to their genes, including the tendency of children’s IQ to regress towards their ancestral race’s mean IQ from that of their parents?”
Because the American public school system is far more racist than it is classist.
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The literature on stereotype threat has been subject to publication bias unfortunately. A recent meta analysis found that studies which showed no ST, were much less likely to be published and were held back.
“Numerous laboratory experiments have been conducted to show that African Americans’ cognitive test performance suffers under stereotype threat, i.e., the fear of confirming negative stereotypes concerning one’s group. A meta-analysis of 55 published and unpublished studies of this effect shows clear signs of publication bias.” Stereotype threat and the cognitive test performance of African Americans,, by Jelte M. Wicherts & Cor de Haan University of Amsterdam
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jas0nburns–
The effort to pinpoint environmental effects which cause the IQ gap and the reversal of which can eliminate it haven’t been found in more than 50 years of looking, with vast billions of federal research money thrown at the issue through research grants. Head start only has temporary effects which disappear in higher grades, and only has that much effect when applied in a no whites need apply discriminatory way.
Stereotype threat may contribute as part of the cultural part of the genes and environment reason for black IQ. However most studies investigating it (e.g. by reminding blacks just before the test that blacks tend to score poorly on average) have shown it to lower black performance compared to what their IQs predict, rather than lowering their IQs.
But yeah, occupying the lowest rung of society economically and in schools performance will tend to be discouraging, especially when it’s been a principal goal of American social policy for more than 40 years to try to change that.
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@Doug1
How much do your family, friends, and peers know about your beliefs when it comes to race? I suppose they all know that you are an HBDer considering how much you hate PCism correct?
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jas0nburns–
That birth rate study is a joke.
If you can’t figure out why you’re hopeless.
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*birth weight
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Doug,
Your country wasn’t either. It was simply given a pass by Stalin because Marshall Tito was an ally in the fight against the Nazis, in the form of being the leader of a large group of guerrilla fighters against them.
So, you know better than me what kind of life and ideology was going on in my country?
We were a socialist country. But we weren’t under Soviets. (In fact, one of the most ideologically based imprisonments/local forced labour camps were reserved for those supporting the Russians). Relationships with Soviets were later normalized, but Yugoslava was never a part of Soviet block.
Have you even heard of Non-Aligned Movement?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Aligned_Movement
(Sorry for the off topic)
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@doug: well, you stated your political agenda very clearly: you want to keep US as it was in the 1950’s movies. Hate to tell you, it never was like that.
Another thing: you want to keep America for americans? Get out. Only real americans are the ones immigrants and their childer, like yourself, killed and murdered, that is: the native americans. Guys like you are just immigrants, talkin about ancestory. So if are for real and want to keep foreigners out of America, get out, man. You are a foreigner, by your ancestors. You do not belong there. That is not your country. It belongs to native americans.
And on that note: you really think you can tell Mira something about Yugoslavia and its history? Boy, you are a classic ugly american. You know, a moron who thinks he knows it all.
I really recommend some travelin and history studies and fast too. You really really need those.
“Yes principally the taboos that fall under the rubric of Political Correctness.”
No. I mean such shit like Fox News and others which are not news in a sense we understand news here in Europe. I mean HBD, race realism, christian fundamentalists, creationist and other filth and scum of the west. You know, pretty much you and your pals.
“My primary motivation in the areas I’ve addressed on this blog is to fight against that propaganda and those ideologies, as a matter of intellectual honesty and clarity.” And that is political propaganda straight from your mouth. You just do not understand it or think that we don’t see it. And that, my friend, shows how really stupid you are.
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@Doug1
Show me the exact research paper that these ‘liberal’ researchers published. That should have the list of the factors they considered when they chose their samples and the method of how they chose their samples. If they did not consider important factors like racism and biased experienced at school and outside, abuse at home or outside, health to name a few, and they did not make the selection of their samples as randomly as possible, then it’s tosh. Besides, your mention of ‘liberal’ sets the alarm bell off in my mind. A bunch of researchers all of whom identify themselves as liberals are a suspicious lot and are very likely to be biased. Next time please do not just post a link of some self-proclaimed race realist’s blog. Even if there is actually a link of the research paper, I can’t find it in all the trash.
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@Doug1
Well first your income bracket and how much wealth you have is not the same thing at all. White families in the same class are five times wealthier($95,000) than their Black counterparts even at similar incomes and occupations.
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/whites_5_times_richer_than_blacks/
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Second, you can say that wealth doesn’t matter at all, but that still doesn’t change the results of the Scarr and Weinberg study where Black children were adopted by highly educated above occupational status & income White couples. The adopted Black students ended up outscoring the average Black and White IQ.
I have already pointed out the problem with the Minnesota Trans-racial adoption. The Black kids were adopted at a much later age, and adopting at later ages is associated with lower IQ. Not to mention all of the reasons the Euro-admixture hypothesis seems highly unlikely.
http://books.google.com/books?id=RwMBD5TSMawC&pg=PA310&lpg=PA310&dq=burakumin+IQ&source=bl&ots=aWTae9nxJ5&sig=pLZiA-UInQWoWwRQq6M0fMdOFyM&hl=en&ei=BOJiTaPtKMybtwfQypmLDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=burakumin%20IQ&f=false
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“have shown it to lower black performance compared to what their IQs predict, rather than lowering their IQs.”
But that initial IQ score is also affected by stereotype threat. Stereotype threat would present itself any time the test subject feels that his or her intelligence is being tested.
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Arizona State University psychologist Elsie Moore’s trans-racial adoption study where Black and biracial children were adopted by either Black or White, middle-class families. The children adopted by White familes had average IQs of 13 points greater than the kids adopted by Black families. Also, there was no significant IQ differences found between Black and biracial children in this study.
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Abagond said: “Because the American public school system is far more racist than it is classist.”
Not to be a broken record here, but this assertion ignores the academic successes of african immigrants, asians, jews, and other historically discriminated against groups.
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@Doug1
On pg. 320 Table 2 of the Elsie Moore study, you can see the mean Full-scale WISC score accompanied by racial admixture and sex. Black girls actually scored higher, albeit insignificantly, than the biracial girls in the traditional & trans-racial adoption. Black boys beat biracial dudes in the trans-racial adoption, while biracial boys scored higher within the traditional.
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@Doug1
That is the full study. The Elsie Moore study along with the huge social difference between Brazilian and Caribbean mulattoes make the Euro-admixture crap highly unlikely.
They may live in different societies, but this is the same world. Non-Hispanic Caribbean mulattoes are clearly a very privileged class. I already explained earlier how they actually benefited from the colonial period, but your free to find as much info about that group yourself. They live in a completely different world than your average Brazilian mulatto referred to as Pardos in Brazil(although according to the ancestry studies I’ve numerously linked in previous post, they are really admixed White ppl not too different than Brazilian Whites).
Socially Brazil mulattoes are disadvantaged compared to White Brazilians. They score almost identically to Brazilian Blacks in education and have lower income than Whites(even though the Whites are not that much Euro than them in terms of ancestry). This seems strange considering all of their Euro blood. Even Black Brazilians are 30-40% Euro on avg. Have you ever seen a favela? A thousand times worse than a Black American ghetto.
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That’s circular logic.
Of course, physical characteristics have a predominantly genetic foundation. That’s scientifically accepted, well-known and I don’t think anybody is denying that. But that’s not the issue. You jump to the term “race” whose various definitions are about as malleable as chewing gum.
If you’re saying that physical features determine “race” which exactly are those features? Applying circular logic, the answer would be “the features group members share based on their region of origin”. And then again, what are those features?
Nothing can be assumed to be intuitive in natural science.
On an unrelated note, since when are Marxists politically correct? A true Marxist would say something like “only a dead capitalist is a good capitalist”.
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“Not to be a broken record here, but this assertion ignores the academic successes of african immigrants, asians, jews, and other historically discriminated against groups.”
No it doesn’t. I think it’s your limited definition of racism that is the problem. It’s been widely discussed here and elsewhere that racism affects different groups in different ways.
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With regards to race and class Take note that Nigerians (as well as being overwhelmingly upper-class) are the single most-educated group in the US, yet — and get ready for this Doug — THEY’RE BLACK!
Oh. My. Gawd! Someone call Steve Sailer! A group of Black people are smarter than a group of White people! It’s the end of days! The leftists and PC liberals have finally brought the wrath of the Lawd upon us poor
racistsrace realists!Seriously, I think it can be established that Doug is a troll with a conspiracy theory on the level of people who believe that the Bushes and other wealthy elites around the world are actually Reptilian extra-terrestrials!
To convince, let alone debate him is a waste of time.
However, I do like this post, and would add that the Toba catastrophe theory does have some holes in it cast by archaeologists Michael Petraglia while he was working in southern India.
But even more difficult to justify (not to help Doug’s argument) is that forensic anthropologists can determine with a high degree of accuracy (something like 80%) the race of a body’s remains — provided enough of it remains to analyze. NOVA has an excellent article on the subject, and it certainly does make you question things.
That said, how do we reconcile the ability for forensic anthropologists to determine race from bones? Yet we know genetically that race is not biological?
Wait… Aha! The answer! We have it finally.
IT MUST BE THE ENVIRONMENT. And indeed, that IS the answer. Just like dark skin occurs in warmer climates, so too do other physiological features, which enable a population to better survive/thrive in a particular environment. However, this also means that it is passed-on, since Black people in Chicago don’t suddenly get white skin. This demonstrates the sheer length of time necessary for any environmental constraint to affect our physiology on a genetic level.
So, for me, the complete answer is that environmental factors which affect us and our ancestors shape the physical features we ascribe as part of the definition for “race”.
Which is why a forensic anthropologist can often determine race from bones, yet geneticists can prove that distant populations are more closely related than troops of chimps!
Which is why we see people of different races as looking different, yet none is greater or lesser than another. Evolutionarily speaking, the brain is not “better” in White people like Doug would have us believe.
But that’s just me.
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@ the cynic
What we really need is a study of white kids adopted by black families so we can compare.
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***That said, how do we reconcile the ability for forensic anthropologists to determine race from bones? Yet we know genetically that race is not biological?***
@ Zek J Evets,
It actually makes sense when you read that those identifiable groups also match genetic clusters.
“See here for a simple example which shows that there can be dramatic group differences in phenotypes even if every version of every gene is found in two groups — as long as the frequency or probability distributions are distinct.”
http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2008/01/no-scientific-basis-for-race.html
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***It’s been widely discussed here and elsewhere that racism affects different groups in different ways.***
If that were correct you wouldn’t expect these trends to occur globally. More likely you’re seeing different groups with diverse average traits.
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I’m gonna come right out and say it; it’s pointless to try to argue with Doug, and people who think like him. It’s not because they are correct because evidence clearly shows they aren’t, but because they refuse to open their minds not only to other points of view, but to the cold, hard truth. Doug has proven that he’s not interested in what anyone who’s a POC or whom he refers to as liberal has to say about race.
It’s infuriating, but it’s a part of reality that people, mostly whites (yes, I said mostly whites Doug and whoever else that agrees with him) can not and would not accept truths that the systems and pseudo-sciences created to illustrate the lies to maintain domination over POC. Why? One can only speculate. I can only guess that it’s because they are addicted to feeling superior like a white man addicted to meth.
It’s to the point where arguing with people like Doug is like trying to sail a sinking ship.
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Btw, the trait for sickle-cell anaemia is present in all equatorial populations around the world, not only in Africa. It’s a natural protection against malaria. Evolution in full effect here. Also many Mediterranean people, Greeks, North Africans etc, still have the trait as malaria used to be common around that area still up to a few thousand years ago.
Hang on, aren’t Mediterraneans considered “Caucasian” in the USA?
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***IT MUST BE THE ENVIRONMENT. And indeed, that IS the answer. Just like dark skin occurs in warmer climates, so too do other physiological features, which enable a population to better survive/thrive in a particular environment. However, this also means that it is passed-on, since Black people in Chicago don’t suddenly get white skin. This demonstrates the sheer length of time necessary for any environmental constraint to affect our physiology on a genetic level.
So, for me, the complete answer is that environmental factors which affect us and our ancestors shape the physical features we ascribe as part of the definition for “race”.***
You’ve just described one way population/racial differences arise.
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***It’s not because they are correct because evidence clearly shows they aren’t, but because they refuse to open their minds not only to other points of view, but to the cold, hard truth.***
What evidence are you referring to? The evidence for racial differences is obvious on a basic level for anyone who watches sports. The existence of ethnic diversity is also confirmed by population genetics.
Brown, et al., 2011. Evolutionary accounts of human behavioural diversity Phil. Trans. R. Soc. B 2011 366, 313-324
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The Cynic—
The Arizona cross racially vs non cross racially adopted black children study was too small to do anything other than merit further investigation. It had a subject size of only 26 cross racially adopted children into white families vs. only 26 into black ones. There were only a total of 6 (!!) biracial children adopted by black families. Totally not credible for drawing any conclusions or not about the effects of large amounts of white admixture among socially black children.
It also tends to show to the extent it shows anything, and author effectively states the hypothesis of the study is, that black mothers on average employing black American culture do a lot poorer job raising kids than white parents applying white American culture do. Whites are supposed to magically fix this for blacks how? How receptive are blacks to this hypothesis and how ready to change how they raise their children?
As well the tiny Arizona study doesn’t control for the SES of the adopting families unlike the Minnesota biracial adoption study where all the adopting parents were upper class.
In contrast the Minnesota transracial adoption study involved 296 adopted kids, black white and clearly bi-racial (one black, one white bio parent) , all of whom were adopted into upper class white families. Much better design to test for likely racial genetic difference effects on intelligence. It also retested the subjects at 17, which a much better indicator or adult intelligence, and where the black white IQ gap is fully manifest, unlike at earlier ages. The tiny Arizona study just test when they were young kids.
Alleles for higher intelligence are only fully expressed phenotypically by young adulthood, hereditarians postulate from the evidence. Kids at age 7 live largely in the environment created by their adoptive parents. Older teens by age 17 to a large extent in the environments they choose for themselves. They decide how much to study and how much to goof around with friends or alone, or play sports.
As for your criticism of the Minnesota study on the basis that the black children were older when adopted, I’ve not seen that made, much less stand up. Link please. There’s e.g. no reference to that on Wikipedia, though the study is discussed there, unlike your tiny Arizona one. I’m beginning to doubt the honesty of your supposed reporting of information and studies.
As for other criticism of the study:
Further:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Transracial_Adoption_Study
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@Doug1
Hopefully you don’t pay too much attention to this post and directly focus on the ones I just posted about IQ when/if you reply to me.
-“The genius of cultural Marxism created Political Correctness is that the vast majority of it’s adherents aren’t cultural Marxists, or anyway don’t self identify as such.”
Marxism is an economic ideology, not a social one. If you must know I am a capitalist.
-“They none the less are ensnared by such nostrums as “that’s blaming the victim” (which presupposes immoral oppression as opposed to winners and losers), sexism!!”
Ummm… in regards to race and society I’m pretty mixed when it comes to the blaming. I also focus on different topics considering my audience. If some HDBer comes at me w/ a, “All n*ggers are dumb” approach I will discuss history along with the societal factors that have created group differences. If I am faced with a Black man who proclaims, “the White man has created a system for us to fail” I discuss how the lack of family planning is hurting the Black community. I figure the HDBer doesn’t need me to tell him about what Black people do wrong and a white man blamer doesn’t need a lecture on institutional racism.
I am really a pretty fair and logically guy that doesn’t infuse his emotions into a debate. I don’t shout about liberal commies or rightist in arguments where it is not needed. I depend on facts to analyze topics.
Now when it comes to the topic of race and IQ it is hard for me to separate societal racism from the debate. This is bc their is a clear positive correlation around the world that has traditionally oppressed groups scoring lower and being living lower socio-economic conditions.
Native Americans from Canada on down to Argentina live in poverty, Maoris NZers score lower than Euro-New Zealanders, Roma Gypsies have lower IQs, Australian Aboriginals, Burakumin even score lower than majority Japanese although they are the same damn race. They look so much like majority Japanese that employers have used private investigators to keep them out of jobs.
You can believe what you want, but I do not think this is a coincidence. I also don’t think I am being irrational by coming to this conclusion. After looking at the histories of different groups and researching how societies tend to operate I honestly believe racism creates/enhances social and economic inequality.
Disagree with me if you want, but don’t think resorting to name calling will win you a debate.
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***Now when it comes to the topic of race and IQ it is hard for me to separate societal racism from the debate. This is bc their is a clear positive correlation around the world that has traditionally oppressed groups scoring lower and being living lower socio-economic conditions.***
Then we would probably expect East Asians in the US (remember WWII internment camps), Japanese in Brazil (indentured labour), Jews in various places, to score poorly, no?
The reality is that they score above average. And this is consistent with psychometric research which predicts their relative overachievement.
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Blaque Ink–
What evidence are you referring to?
There’s a mountain of scientific evidence that the differences in individual IQ and in black versus white average IQ is partially based on heredity, or genes. It’s just that this has become and enormous PC social, academic and media taboo, guarded by calling anyone who breaks it:
“racist, racist, racist”
See these two meta analysis of the arguements for and against this:
Click to access PPPL1.pdf
http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2007/10/james-watson-tells-inconvenient-truth_296.php
But you won’t read them will you, despite the fact that they’re DIRECTLY on the point you’re asserting, and despite the fact that they are single small studies but survey the field of evidence for and against what people of find HBD persuasive assert.
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Yeah, can I get a link to the Sandra Scarr accusation. I fail to see how they scored higher on average than White children and also had the average biracial score. Do White and biracials score the same?
A critic of the Minnesota study is in paragraph 12 of this article. I have numerously linked it, so I don’t understand why you have never seen it.
“The closest thing to direct evidence that the hereditarians have is a study from the 1970s showing that black children who had been adopted by white parents had lower I.Q.’s than those of mixed-race children adopted by white parents. But, as the researchers acknowledged, the study had many flaws; for instance, the black children had been adopted at a substantially later age than the mixed-race children, and later age at adoption is associated with lower I.Q.”
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@Swchartz
Please look up the definition of a positive correlation. Also if you can find me any examples of long and sustained economic discrimination through institutional racism against those groups. I already tackled the Jewish situation with Uncle Milton on the Asian American post.
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***for instance, the black children had been adopted at a substantially later age than the mixed-race children, and later age at adoption is associated with lower I.Q.”***
On the other hand, the mixed race children were adopted earlier than the white children.
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***. Please look up the definition of a positive correlation..***
That’s my point, your correlation collapses when you consider East Asians and Jewish groups. That is because discrimination doesn’t account for these group differences.
The late behavioural geneticist David C Rowe authored some papers looking for some minority-specific developmental
factors depressing achievement, but couldn’t find any.
Rowe DC, Vazsonyi AT, Flannery DJ. Ethnic and racial similarity
in developmental process: a study of academic achievement.
Psychol Sci 1995; 6: 33-8.
Rowe DC, Vazsonyi AT, Flannery DJ. No more than skin deep:
ethnic and racial similarity in developmental process. Psychol Rev 1994; 101: 396-413.
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The left likes to pretend that there’s firmly established scientific evidence that IQ is all environmentally or culturally determined, that we’re all born with equal intelligence, and that the mind is a blank slate, written on only by culturally transmitted learning.
There’s NEVER EVER been strong scientific evidence for this proposition, and mountains of evidence against it. There wasn’t good scientific evidence for that in 1970 and there isn’t now.
Oh sure the environment and culture do have some considerable effect; no scientist or intellectual knowledgeable in these areas denies that.
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@Schawrtz
Correlations do not collapse. A perfect positive correlation is +1.00, a perfect negative correlation is -1.00, and if their is no relationship the pattern of a correlation is 0.00.
Even when you include East Asians and Jews the correlation does not equal 0.
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“The left likes to pretend that there’s firmly established scientific evidence that IQ is all environmentally or culturally determined, that we’re all born with equal intelligence, and that the mind is a blank slate, written on only by culturally transmitted learning.”
false. genes exist, races don’t.
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The Cynic–
Look up cultural Marxism. You have a lot to learn.
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@Doug1
Yes, that is why the IQ gap of White Americans in the 1930s is at the same margin as the Black-White gap of today.
It is also why Burakumin score 15-16pts lower in IQ than majority Japanese when they are the same race/ethnic group/genetic population.
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The Cynic–
The Burakumin is the only good example from your list casting doubt on a genetics only theory. But no one makes genetics only claims. Certainly I haven’t.
How much lower do Burakumin score on IQ tests?
I’ve heard to the Burakumin in this context before but don’t know much about them.
It would be possible to create a genetically less intelligent internal caste starting from the same race even at a fine level of ancestral detail. Just promote all real smart burakumin out of that (“obviously someone made a mistake about his ancestry”) and demote anyone from the main society who’s real dumb and doesn’t have a high social standing family (same sorts of stories/reasoning). Rinse and repeat for a good number of generations.
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Wrong.
Race is about ancestry which both obviously exists and is biological.
A race is a group of descendants who share common ancestors for the most part within the group, but only considerably further back common ancestors, with other racial groups, on the scale of 10s of thousands of years in the case of 6 generally agreed by population geneticists, major geographic races.
Sub groups or races split apart into separate breeding populations for the most part except in clinal areas, more recently.
The one drop rule for blacks in America is clearly a social construct however. Blacks who are half or 40% white are biologically mixed rather than black. They’re only socially black.
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Nisbett is sort of the current standard bearer for radical environmentalist arguments from the evidence on IQ.
That Nisbett NY Times editorial presents some of the best IQ is entirely about the environment events and it still amounts to a hill of beans.
I’ve read the tiny Arizona study and took it apart above. Even environmentalists admit that the Minnesoto trans racial adoption study is strong evidence for some substantial differential genetic determination. The later black adoption attempt at debunking is squid ink. How much later. And is Schwartz says above, biracials were adopted earlier. It’s highly implausible that a small difference in age at adoption had much effect.
The chicago schools investigators evidence is bunk because of the one drop rule for what race black school children will say their parents and grandparents are.
Blood type is not a very good or fine measure of the degree of white ancestry, nor is skin tone, which is quite subjective.
As I’ve said before a correlation could be done in a large well funded national study comparing IQs in young adulthood with DNA test determined percentage of white ancestry.
The left and blacks too scared to let the government fund it, though Charles Murray has proposed it be done some years ago.
Even Flynn himself admits the Flynn effect he discovered isn’t uncovering real increases in g (or the actual intelligence that IQ tests try to get at) over the last 80 years in developed countries, but is instead mostly recording artifacts such as more familiarity with IQ test type puzzles in modern schools and life. The black white gap hasn’t narrowed during this period or only did under some studies by about 3 points in the early part of it, then stopped. That may well have been due to trace minerals which help prevent certain types of mental retardation, such as iron added to flour and iodine added to table salt that the feds mandated between the WWs. Blacks may have been less likely to get these minerals in their diet before then.
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Doug1
To highlight:
As I’ve said before a correlation could be done in a large well funded national study comparing IQs in young adulthood with DNA test determined percentage of white ancestry.
The left and blacks too scared to let the government fund it, though Charles Murray has proposed it be done some years ago.
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The Cynic said: “It is also why Burakumin score 15-16pts lower in IQ than majority Japanese when they are the same race/ethnic group/genetic population.”
As has been discussed earlier, lower IQ scores can only be accurately attributed to environment when there is a control group of the same genetic makeup who scores higher in a more ideal environment.
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Why the hell is Doug1 obsessed about proving that blacks are idiots?
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jas0nburns said: ““Randy said: Not to be a broken record here, but this assertion ignores the academic successes of african immigrants, asians, jews, and other historically discriminated against groups.”
No it doesn’t. I think it’s your limited definition of racism that is the problem. It’s been widely discussed here and elsewhere that racism affects different groups in different ways.”
Regardless of technicalities one might reference in describing various forms of present and historical racism, I think that “Randy’s Wager” still applies.
Simply put, if you tell me a child’s bedtime, number of minutes per week spent doing schoolwork outside of school, and number of minutes per week discussing schoolwork with parents, then I can predict a child’s chances of being academically successful, independent of race, income, or school quality.
The historically discriminated groups I’ve mentioned above tend to invest highly in their children’s educations, with the predictable payoff of high academic achievement.
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@ Cynic,
Did you look up the research by David C Rowe I cited above. Again, he couldn’t find any x-factor’s depressing minority achievement.
In terms of correlations you seem to be missing the most obvious causal factor – human genetic diversity.
Take the Australian aborigines you mentioned above. They particullarly have a distinct psychometric profile even when raised in cities. This corresponds with a particularly large frontal portion of cerebral cortex linked to spatial ability.
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Randy:
So what bedtime, number of minutes per week spent doing schoolwork outside of school, and number of minutes per week discussing schoolwork with parents does it take to overcome racism, poverty and bad schools? Also, what proof do you have that said quantities work for black Americans?
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Calculator
I’m not.
There are blacks who have IQ’s at the 130 and 145 level. Not many but some.
It’s the same percentage as whites who have IQ’s at the 145 and 160 level.
I’m much more “obsessed” with opposition to cultural Marxist 2nd wave and thereafter feminism than cultural Marxism => political correctness on race.
But I’m fairly liberal on e.g. tax policy, despite that costing me.
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abagond,
I have a number of school teacher friends who enjoy discussing the challenges facing the educational system. Many of them are quite disenchanted with the current environment, both at the poor end and the rich end of the spectrum, actually.
Regardless of who I ask, the same recipe for success comes up again and again. A more accurate “Randy’s Wager” would probably involve diet and discipline (both hard to quantify) and be modified by grade level, but I wanted to keep it simple as possible and think that the existing description is pretty decent, especially in that it exposes (what I think is) a mostly-unacknowledged and uncomfortable truth.
A reality of the educational system is that communities tend to succeed or fail as a group. It doesn’t take many disruptive and ill-disciplined students to impair the learning environment for everyone else.
This tends to be a problem at poorer schools. Needless to say, that’s a parenting responsibility. Where communities value education and parents invest highly in their children, metal detectors and police resource officers aren’t necessary. Class decorum is not disrupted and learning can more readily take place.
At wealthier schools, the problems are more often apathy, laziness, and a sense of entitlement. One teacher friend got fired at a highly regarded magnet school because he refused to inflate the grades of well-off students who simply didn’t put in the work.
So back to Randy’s wager. To help ensure a 5th grader’s academic success, I’d say bedtime before 9, 100 minutes per week discussing schoolwork (20 minutes a day), and 240 minutes of homework or out-of-school work per day (roughly an hour M-Th). Pleasure reading would be encouraged.
If you were to gather large numbers of students from all backgrounds and races and divide them up roughly based on those numbers, I think you’d discover a high-confidence interval for predicting academic success.
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abagond–
The main thing that creates bad schools is unintelligent and disruptive, hard to get to concentrate on school work, students.
The later is made much worse by leftist policies on school discipline and “disparate impacts” of school discipline. I.e. if a higher percentage of black kids get some disciplinary action against them, there must be “racial discrimination” going on.
Because we know that much higher rates of fatherlessness have no effects, right, even if you (wrongly) reject the strong likelihood that genes in the form of creating higher testosterone and testosterone receptor levels in black males AND females have an important effect. /sarcasm.
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Abagond–
Some of the most richly funded public schools in America are those in Washington DC, which has some of the most dismal school results in the nation, among it’s black students. (And I strongly suspect to a lesser but still bad degree, among white students unfortunate enough to have to attend largely urban black public schools.)
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Too little.
I sure did a whole lot more than that. Vastly. Except for talking to parent part. I guess that’s remedial. Well I did do that post first grade, when I didn’t live up to potential. Soon remedied. I did means my mother did with me.
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Abagond–
But yeah, make teachers unions illegal. For African American students most of all.
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They used to be illegal.
make them so again.
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@Doug1
No one knows what factor(s) caused the Flynn affect. Not even Flynn. All he provide is one hypothesis that hasn’t been proven.
@Randy and Doug1
“As has been discussed earlier, lower IQ scores can only be accurately attributed to environment when there is a control group of the same genetic makeup who scores higher in a more ideal environment.”
Again the Burakumin show that their is a POSSIBILITY that the Black-White IQ gap in American society is purely environmental. HDBers have yet to find any alleles associated with intelligence that are more common in certain populations and not others. All of their statistics don’t amount to anything as long as we know that a 15-16 amount gap can be attributed to the environment.
@Doug1
I have no problem with a well funded admixture IQ study. If we tested Brazilian Mulattoes vs Caribbean Mulattoes along with African Americans vs “Black” Brazilians i am confident this hypothesis would be quashed. I think your lucky such a study hasn’t been done.
“It would be possible to create a genetically less intelligent internal caste starting from the same race even at a fine level of ancestral detail.”
Yeah and I suppose this is why lower caste Indians score low in IQ compared to higher caste. Because of so much intermarriage between caste right!(obvious sarcasm) With honor killings that’s highly unlikely…
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@Doug1
“How much lower do Burakumin score on IQ tests?”
15-16 IQ points less. About the same margin as Blacks and Whites in the US. Table 7.2 on pg 310 gives the percentages of Burakumin IQ compared to other non-Burakumin Japanese in given ranges.
Only 2.6% of Burakumin score above 125 compared to 23.3% of non-Burakumin. While 37.6% of Burakumin score below 76 in IQ compared to 9.9% non-Burakumin.
http://books.google.com/books?id=RwMBD5TSMawC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
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@Randy
“As has been discussed earlier, lower IQ scores can only be accurately attributed to environment when there is a control group of the same genetic makeup who scores higher in a more ideal environment.”
Just so you understand. I never said this for sure means the Black vs White gap isn’t genetic. All this says is that the existence of the gap doesn’t have to equal genetics. Many HDBers claim that it does w/o any solid proof of European and East Asian populations having a higher amount of alleles that are beneficial for higher intelligence.
@Doug1
A little bit of info about Burakumin.
“The buraku — ethnically indistinguishable from other Japanese — are descendants of Japanese who, according to Buddhist beliefs, performed tasks considered unclean. Slaughterers, undertakers, executioners and town guards, they were called eta, which means defiled mass, or hinin, nonhuman. Forced to wear telltale clothing, they were segregated into their own neighborhoods.
In Japan, every person has a family register that is kept in local town halls and that, with some extrapolation, reveals ancestral birthplaces. Families and companies widely checked birthplaces to ferret out buraku among potential hires or marriage partners until a generation ago. The practice has greatly declined, though, especially among the young.
The buraku were officially liberated in 1871, just a few years after the 13th Amendment abolished slavery in the United States. But as the buraku’s living standards and education levels remained far below national averages, the Japanese government, under pressure from buraku liberation groups, passed a special law to improve conditions for the buraku in 1969. By the time the law expired in 2002, Japan had reportedly spent about $175 billion on affirmative action programs for the buraku.
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***Many HDBers claim that it does w/o any solid proof of European and East Asian populations having a higher amount of alleles that are beneficial for higher intelligence.***
That’s a little unfair. You could say the same about gene alleles for height until pretty recently, and male/female differences.
HBDers are basically drawing an inference of what is most plausible based on research to date. The inference being that environmental and genetic variation probably explains group differences. According to the Snyderman/Rothman survey that view was held by far more researchers than the pure environmental explanation.
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@Swchartz
Explains group differences? Yeah, w/o any alleles there just isn’t any proof. You can say this is your guess, but that is all it is.
“If genetic influences help explain individual diversity traits such as aggressiveness, can the same be said of group differences between men and women , or between people of different races? Not necessarily. Individual differences in height and weight, for example, are HIGHLY inheritable; yet nutritional rather than genetic influences explain why, as a group, today’s adults are taller and heavier than those of a century ago. The two groups differ, but not because human genes have changed in a mere century’s eyeblink of time.
As with height and weight, so with personality and intelligence scores: Heritable individual differences need not imply heritable group differences.”(Myers 138-139)
Myers, David G. Psychology 9th Edition In Modules. New York: Worth Publishers, 2010. Print.
Doug1 has already stated why he feels this logic is very unlikely.
Personally I believe this logic makes perfect sense and w/o any proof of the specific alleles or that snow makes you smarter HDBers are just giving their opinions. This society and the world has a history of inequality. I am well informed about it, so recognizing its legacy is not hard for me. Even if HDBers refuse to see it.
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Does anybody know the reason for so much social and economic inequality when it comes to race in Brazil? In terms of ancestry “White” Brazilians are not that much European than Pardos(primarily mulattoes). They all basically share ancestry from the same 3 continents.
Check Table 1 on the pg. right before the references for Education rates. You can also read about racial inequality from many other sources. If you want a summary just know that in terms of equality it’s basically Whites and then everybody else.
Click to access 25%20Rosemary%20DORE%20e%20MOREIRA%20Black%20Movement%20and%20Education%20Brazil.pdf
Genetic studies show Blk Brazilians are only 55%African and 35-40% Euro on avg, Pardos are more Euro than African, and Whites are only about 80%Euro, 10% Afro, & 10%Amerindian.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/news/2009/11/091102_brazil_black_ap.shtml
You can listen to the the University of Brasilia’s anthropologist, Jorge Jose Jorge de Carvalho, about Brazilian ancestry in the 2nd media player.
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***This society and the world has a history of inequality. I am well informed about it, so recognizing its legacy is not hard for me. Even if HDBers refuse to see it.***
HBDer’s aren’t unaware of these points. That’s why Jensen & co look at studies controlling for SES, parental education, whether developmental processes are different across groups (the Rowe research I mentioned above) etc.
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@Schwartz
I did say “even if”
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To The Cynic:
Click to access 25%20Rosemary%20DORE%20e%20MOREIRA%20Black%20Movement%20and%20Education%20Brazil.pdf
The figures for all groups are plain dismal when compared to the US. It shows for all groups only 63.4% received basic education. 44% of that group were considered White and 56% were considered Black or Pardo. Now from your link from the BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5357842.stm
White: 93 million
Black: 11 million
“Grey” (mixed-race): 76 million
Other: 2 million
So 51% of Brazil considers itself White whereas 28% of Whites receive basic education. Brazilian Whites could have a markedly smaller cohort at the school age level but that seems like a pretty small percentage of the population even receiving a basic education. Less than 1/3 of the Whites who made it through basic education get a high school diploma. This, for any group in the US, would be considered a disaster.. and note.. that the figures are very likely even lower as a percentage of the school age children since it appears roughly 37% of Brazilians do not even get a basic education. If we ball parked it and said 40% of the school age children in Brazil are White less than 23% are graduating from High School. Or put another way the Black American high school graduation rate is 273% higher and the college graduation rate is 65% higher than White Brazilians.
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/bhmcensus1.html
This would lead me to believe that Brazilians overall tend to favor education at markedly lower rates than Americans.
I wouldn’t really know how this would play out with admixture.
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Here is some more information on education and race in Brazil.
“This is particularly true for Afro-Brazilians, who account for an estimated 45% of Brazil’s population but only 2% of its university students.”
http://www.wilsoncenter.org/index.cfm?event_id=110768&fuseaction=events.event_summary
Note that only 6 out of 100 Brazilians identify as Black, so that means most Afro-Brazilians are Pardo/mulatto. As you saw earlier their ancestry is mostly European, not too much different than “White” Brazilians. Despite having so many European descendant ancestors they make up a tiny percent of ppl in higher education. The inequality there is worse than in the United States where the Afro-descendants are predominantly African in origin. I wonder how they compare in IQ…
I can’t be sure of the validity of the information in this next link, but I think it would still be useful to post. The survey was cited from the 2002 TGI Brasil study of 10,624 persons between the ages of 12 to 64 years old. As you can see from the chart Pardo and Black education rates & socio-economic lvls are quite similar. A clear gap between Black/Pardos and Whites/Asians. The education graph can get tricky so pay close attn to incompletion and completion rates.
http://www.zonalatina.com/Zldata309.htm
If you look at this information in the eyes of an HDBer focusing solely on race, this makes a lot of sense, however if you look at as an HDBer zoning in on ANCESTRY it clearly does not. Too bad there isn’t much information on IQ when it comes to Brazil…
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“The main thing that creates bad schools is unintelligent and disruptive, hard to get to concentrate on school work, students.”
Really?
I used to go a high school into which you had to have a good grades and junior high school paper way above the average. There were no blacks, no other “races” at all. Almost all the students were from upper midlle class.
And yet, we had students who fought with teatchers (physically that is), guys who used to beat up others on hallways, guys who used to steal, who roamed in gangs, broke doors and walls and windos in school, in one case actually killed a man, we had some teenage pregnencies etc.
Despite of all that, our school was one of the top socrers in our national SATs. Practically all graduated (not those two guys who went to prison for murder). It was a good school, modern building, loads of resources, academic success stories, our arts students won national acclaim, some became national team athletes etc.
Bad or good school, doug?? 😀
“Some of the most richly funded public schools in America are those in Washington DC, which has some of the most dismal school results in the nation, among it’s black students.” You ever heard corruption, doug? And name these schools.
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Where is that link with the Northern Blacks scoring higher in IQ than whites in some Southern states and Southern Blacks?
I also want to see the actual scores of the Southern and Eastern European groups that scored lower than Northern Euros to the point that Congress actually capped immigration on them bc they were deemed inferior peoples.
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Certain people keep ignoring one of the fundamentals in scientific methodology.
Correlation does not imply causation.
Without direct evidence, no conclusion about causation between different empirically observed phenomena can be made.
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Doug1 said:
Sam said:
Abagond says:
LOL. Right. The levees of New Orleans were also “richly funded”, also with dismal results. By Dougian logic that proves that there was something wrong with the levees themselves, that they were beyond repair.
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“This would lead me to believe that Brazilians overall tend to favor education at markedly lower rates than Americans.”
So why can’t this be said for Black Americans vs White Americans? Of course I already note that Doug1 is lucky I have no IQ studies from Brazil concerning race. Either way I think most HDBers(and even non-HDBers) would agree that
-High IQ scoring people are more likely to attain high levels of education and income.
Aren’t the Whites, Pardos, and Blacks in Brazil all more European in ancestry than African Americans? Shouldn’t that make them smarter?
Either way you also see the same racial hierarchy in Brazil. Which is odd considering Whites and Pardos especially aren’t that much different in terms of Euro ancestry.
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“Cultural Marxism” my arse. It’s just a rehashed term for Cultural Bolshevism, coined by the n@zis to discredit – and earmark for later extermination – any sociocultural concepts they considered to be opposing to their ideology. It just goes to show once again the hypocrisy these contemporary neo-n@zis operate with.
As a side effect, Marxism sounds frightening to most Americans as it is reminiscent of socialism. Also, Bolshevism is more difficult to spell…
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To The Cynic:
-High IQ scoring people are more likely to attain high levels of education and income.
Aren’t the Whites, Pardos, and Blacks in Brazil all more European in ancestry than African Americans? Shouldn’t that make them smarter?
Well I have no idea…comparing educational attainment between separate cultures and drawing conclusions about intelligence seems a bit suspect. It certainly seems as if education in Brazil is given a lower priority than in the US but that doesn’t necessarily make them less smart.
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@abagond:
“Abagond says:
LOL. Right. The levees of New Orleans were also “richly funded”, also with dismal results. By Dougian logic that proves that there was something wrong with the levees themselves, that they were beyond repair.”
😀
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@Uncle Milton
Okay, but what about the social & economic hierarchy in Brazil. Is that not odd considering Whites and Pardos especially aren’t that much different in terms of Euro ancestry?
And why do you say we can’t compare people from different societies? We don’t live in two separate universes where intelligence works differently. HDBers compare Europeans to Africans and the rest of the world ALL the time.
@Everyone
Does anybody have the hard numbers with the Northern Blacks scoring higher in IQ than whites in some Southern states and Southern Blacks?
I also want to see the actual scores of the Southern and Eastern European groups that scored lower than Northern Euros to the point that Congress actually capped immigration on them bc they were deemed inferior peoples.
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@everyone
Can anyone find any studies from Otto Klineberg? I found out this much about him in a couple of articles from the NYT-LA Times when he died.
“Mr. Klineberg, a renowned social psychologist, was a lifelong critic and debunker of racial superiority theories, whether propounded by Nazis, white Southerners or black extremists.
He played a significant role in the desegregation victory on three levels.
In studies that he started more than 60 years ago, he found that students in underfinanced Southern black schools averaged lower intelligence scores than Southern whites and Northern blacks and whites.
But when blacks moved north to schools that were integrated and of better quality, their scores eventually equaled those of Northern-born blacks. In the North, he concluded, the scores of blacks nearly matched those of whites, with the discrepancy attributable to social and economic differences.
His views were controversial.
When he was quoted in 1931 saying there was no scientific basis for racial superiority or barring interracial marriage, the New York Herald-Tribune, in an editorial against him, said his assertions ran counter to most ethnologists,”
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1992-03-15/news/9201240302_1_otto-klineberg-blacks-and-whites-intelligence-scores
I ask for all of this bc Doug1 brought up Black kids with high incomes having lower average test scores than poor white kids as evidence of black intellectual inferiority. However, in Thomas Sowell’s, “Blacks, Rednecks, and White liberals” he cites several historical instances of Blacks scoring higher than some white groups. Settled Southern/Eastern immigrant children, Southern Whites, Whites in some Scottish and British communities etc.
*I would also like to note that the 35yr study w/ the Burakumin children scoring lower in IQ were with children that attended the same schools as non-Burakumin. This could be interpreted as having an equal environment to some. However, with the two groups being of the same race…
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The Cynic–
No, I agree with the Schwartz and his source Myers on the reasons for the intergenerational increase in height in developed countries.
I’d also guess that most of the increase in average height in e.g. Europe occurred among commoners rather than the nobility. The nobility had meat and dairy rich diets for a long time.
You’re not thinking or understanding what I’ve been saying with sufficient subtlety Cynic.
Remember my analogy of the four pots seeded with corn, two with selectively bread genetically advanced strains of seeds and two with regular old school corn seeds? If the watering is lousy enough (environment) then the advanced genetics won’t make as much difference. When the water and sun are just right, the genetic differences make a lot of difference.
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The Cynic–
Says you on the genetic admixture not being “that different”.
Why don’t I trust your vague pronouncements.
As well it’s likely that the white genes in Brazilian mulatos, particularly darker ones, came for the most part from less intelligent white men. Since lots of apparent African ancestry => lower status girls.
As well as your much loved tiny Arizona biracial adoption study asserts, black mothers applying black culture suck at raising kids to have high intelligence. Yeah that’s right, I think culture matters too. Both culture and genes. Not nearly so much SES. Immigrants with good culture but poor as piss parents throughout a kids lifetime can and do raise intelligent kids. Particularly if the also have an intelligent on average genetic ancestry. Like Askenazi Jews and NE Asians.
Though Episcopalians in America actually have as high IQ as Jews here do.
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@Doug1
“When the water and sun are just right, the genetic differences make a lot of difference.”
Yeah, and I was guessing that you were using the high income blacks, poor white test scores to prove that even when blacks have the upper hand they still lag behind whites.
This is when I began to bring up the historical instances of blacks scoring higher than whites in IQ and other test. Which makes the earlier pro-HDB argument irrelevant. I also brought up the fact that the 35yr Burakumin IQ study was comparing them to non-Burakumin children who went to the same school. That could be seen to some as an example of equal footing. Being that they are within the same genetic population, an environmental explanation seems highly likely.
http://books.google.com/books?id=JMxpBOnQIH8C&pg=PA31&lpg=PA31&dq=northern+blacks+score+higher+IQ+southern+whites&source=bl&ots=WMNMKu5N4K&sig=NL4EjKUodQkf4L6qAHMm24iJRDU&hl=en&ei=MtVjTf-ODMOblge-rvHiCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CEMQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=ymFz0q8hFZEC&pg=PA76&lpg=PA76&dq=northern+blacks+score+higher+IQ+southern+whites&source=bl&ots=468AyUDDed&sig=NSABfCgHQWGSA2zW50oeOic0xB0&hl=en&ei=MtVjTf-ODMOblge-rvHiCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBoQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=northern%20blacks%20score%20higher%20IQ%20southern%20whites&f=false
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“As well it’s likely that the white genes in Brazilian mulatos, particularly darker ones, came for the most part from less intelligent white men. Since lots of apparent African ancestry => lower status girls.”
Do you even know the history of miscegenation in Brazil?
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@Doug1
Nothing about racial mixing in Brazil suggest that unintelligent White men(which I thought you believed were rare on avg). Throughout the colonial period around 10% of all marriages w/in the country was b/tween different races. Of course many illegitimate mixed race births occurred during this period with White slave owners and Black and Amerindian concubines.
In 1825 23.4% of Brazilians were European, 17.8% mixed-race, 49.8% African, and 9.1% Amerindian. After slavery ended in 1888 white Brazilian elites encouraged whitening the country by promoting racial mixing and subsidized European immigration from countries like Italy, Germany, Portugal, etc. As you can see from current censuses mixed-race brazilians make up about 45% of the population.
Nothing about this process of racial mixing suggest unintelligent White men birthed this huge Mulatto population. Most of them are obviously multi-generational mixed folks anyways.
“Why don’t I trust your vague pronouncements.”
Idk… as you can see from the ancestry chart on Rio De Janeiro Brazilians Pardos are 68.1% Euro and 23.6% Afro. Whites are 86.4% Euro and 6.9% Afro. This is an 18.3% ancestral difference in Euro blood. A small difference considering the huge social and economic racial gap in Brazil.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardo
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The tendency of the offspring of blacks and whites to regress from their parents’ average IQs to that of their racial mean also strongly suggests a substantial heritable or genetic component to racial IQ differences.
If culture and environment were the sole determinants of IQ differences as most blacks and leftists here claim, we would not expect regression towards the respective racial means. Instead we’d expect smart black parents to pass along the benefits of their own favorable cultural and environmental exposure to their kids and if anything enhance them through their own relative SES success and learning.
Regression of offspring toward the racial, actually towards the parents’ weighted average ancestral, IQ mean is a genetic phenomenon.
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The Cynic–
Nope.
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@Doug1
Basically if you compare the Euro & Afro ancestry of Brazilian Pardos to Black & Whites you can see that based on ancestry Pardos should be classed with Whites. There is only a 16.7%/18.3% Afro/Euro difference between Pardos and Whites, while there is a 27.3%/26.3% Afro/Euro difference in ancestry between pardos and Blacks. However, when you look at socio-economic status and race in Brazil Pardos are clearly closer to Blacks than to Whites.
All of this is really me thinking aloud in the comment section. I have already told you your lucky I have no racial IQ scores from Brazil. If I did it would be easier for me to point out the discrepancies in intelligence between Brazilian racial groups, Brazilian Mulattoes and Caribbean Mulattoes, & African Americans vs Brazilian racial groups.
I would much rather focus on my comments concerning historical instances where Black groups scored higher than/similarly to some White groups in IQ & other test. I can’t even continue to entertain your unintelligent Brazil white men comment. That is just wishful thinking…
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The Cynic–
Mixed race in Brazil means Euro mixed with either Amerindians or ssAfricans. Amerindian wives tended to be preferred over white ones.
Total rubbish.
Darker skin was and is lower status in Brazil, despite it not having had an exact color line for most of it’s history or now.
Today and historically probably even more so, higher status white Brazilians, which tends to also mean smarter ones, tend to strongly prefer seemingly full white women for wives, or ones with only a touch of blackness to them. Some Amerindian though adds spice. Adrianna Lima is a classic gorgeous Brazilian beautify with a claimed (and it looks it) just a small dash of African to her mostly white with some Amerindian ancestry.
So yes that tends to suggest that it’s less successful and less intelligent white men who intermarried and had children with black or heavily black mulatto women in Brazil.
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The Cynic–
Yes it is a striking finding that in a large study by liberal scientists, that student of black families earning in the top quartile of income (and therefore not only one would suppose able to provide a high SES environment for the kids but also being in the upper ranks of black IQ distribution) scored LOWER on their SATS than children of white families earning in the lowest quartile of income.
Two reasons why I think. Regression towards the racial mean, which is a genetic phenomenon, and affirmative action for the parents helping them get into that top quartile without fully having the higher IQs one would otherwise expect. Above the black median IQ yes, but maybe not so far above the white median.
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@Doug1
I know what mixed race means in the Brazilian context. There are obviously more Mulattoes than Cablacos/Mestizos in Brazil. Just look at the admixture graph.
Also you should know that most of the Mulattoes were not from mixed marriages during the colonial times. They were from illegitimate children. In Brazil, as well as America, married White men would still have sex with Black women.
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@Doug1
“Yes it is a striking finding that in a large study by liberal scientists, that student of black families earning in the top quartile of income… scored LOWER on their SATS than children of white families earning in the lowest quartile of income.”
How convenient of you to pick that one statement out of my comment and not address the actual questions that I brought up concerning historical instances of Black groups scoring higher than White groups in IQ and other tests.
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The Cynic
Quoting myself.
What I meant to say was Amerindian wives tended to be preferred over black ones.
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The Amerindian girls in the Rio area early on were supposed to be quite attractive to the early Portuguese in Brazil, like Tahitian girls.
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@Doug1
Your beating a dead horse concerning the Amerindian girls. I already pointed out that their are obviously more Mulattoes than mestizos in Brazilian. You’re arguing over what mixed-race/Pardo means doesn’t even make any sense. I mean just look at any genetic ancestry test. Mestizos are like what, 3-1% of the Pardo population? They’re insignificant to this debate.
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The Cynic–
Show me a link to fairly conducted scientific studies that show that, that employ scientific population sampling, rather than cherry picked white and black subsets, such as white hillbillies.
You two book links did no such thing.
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The Cynic–
Why has there never been any impressive ssAfrican civilization? And don’t give me that low account unimpressive lot of cut stones at “The Great Zimbabwe”.
Why do ssAfrican IQ scores average lower than 70s, at around 68 in fact? Sure I’ll give you environmental and cultural deficits, but why are they so much lower than those in Indonesia, which is also tropical, third world and undeveloped, but comes in in the low 90s, like those in Malaysia, Thailand and Vietnam?
Why are blacks in every country they’re found, at the lowest rungs in society in terms of wealth and status, and don’t on average rise above that over time?
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@Doug1
“Show me a link to fairly conducted scientific studies that show that, that employ scientific population sampling, rather than cherry picked white and black subsets, such as white hillbillies.”
If you haven’t noticed I have been asking for those links for the longest. According to your poor White example you’re clearly inferring that the socio-economic status of whites doesn’t matter much. Basically, no matter what a Blacks shouldn’t be able to do better.
You bring up cherry-picking hillbillies, but you forgot to mention IQ scores from Eastern and Southern immigrants that actually caused politicians to further gap immigration from these groups bc they were considered inferior peoples.That really isn’t doing much cherry-picking. Neither is the WWI military test that showed Blacks from four Northern states scoring higher than Whites from four Southern states.
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@ Doug1:
And why was northern Europe some shitty little backwaters till at least 1400 if, you know, IQ is mostly genetic and northern Europeans have such high IQs?
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The Cynic–
I think that higher intelligence tends to lead to higher SES status in countries with any degree of mobility at all, more than higher SES status in and of itself (apart from genetic effects) leads to higher IQ kids.
The first thing liberal social scientists tried to show was that SES status wad determinative of IQ but they basically failed to persuasively show that apart from the sorts of genetic effects I’ve posited.
Culture does look like it has more effect.
Of course if the only way one could get a basic education was by your parents having high SES, yeah that would have IQ effects.
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abagond–
1) I’ve said culture and other environmental effects account for about half, maybe somewhat less, of IQ differences under current American conditions. I’ve also said culture and environment was more important in IQ differences when it’s lousy enough.
It didn’t take Europe all that long to climb back, actually. It was impressive again way before 1400, in world comparison, though wasn’t starting to eclipse the chinese again until somewhat after that.
The fall of Rome and the disintegration of the Western Roman empire was pretty bad. It wasn’t just a military empire that passed into different hands or broke into somewhat smaller pieces, the whole international trading economy of the western Roman empire disintegrated. It had been disintegrating for awhile due to a host of reasons that are still debated, but they include high inflation and a failure to find new gold and silver deposits to replace the played out Spanish mines, and an end to the economic boost of taking large numbers of new slaves, as the Empire reached as far and beyond how much could be sustained.
After the fall of Rome in 475 ad or so, it looks like the majority of people in many parts of the empire died off over the next few generations, due to starvation and attendant disease mostly.
Europe had had the highest civilization in the world for the 500 years from 500bc to the final fall of Rome around 500 ad. Byzantium, or the Eastern Roman empire, who’s intellectuals, scientists and inventors were largely greek and certainly Caucasian, continued as a high civilization for another 500 years.
By 800AD and Charlemagne the Roman church had reestablished literacy among its priests and monks, and increasingly among rulers.
By the 1100s magnificent Church art was being created and the magnificent Gothic Cathedrals we’re starting to be built.
The Renaissance began by 1350. Not long after that the colonization of most of the rest of the world by Europeans began.
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Response to abagond in moderation.
@Europe had had the highest civilization in the world for the 1000 years from 500bc to the final fall of Rome around 500 ad.
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Doug:
I am talking just about northern Europe. That is the high-IQ part of Europe, after all. Greeks and Romans are from southern Europe and have lower IQs.
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Why the IQ differences between Jewish populations? Anyone have a link to how similar Jewish populations are to Arabs?
I know HDBers may claim Ashkenazim are a race on their own bc of Tay-Sachs. Which is kind of dumb considering only a small percentage of Ashkenazi Jews carry the allele for the disease.
Once again just bc an allele is more common in certain populations than others doesn’t mean that all of or even most of the members of that population carry the allele. For instance, their is a higher percentage of the alleles that code for blue-eyes within the European population. However, most Euro-descendants have brown eyes.
I know that studies have shown the close similarities between Ashkenazi and Sephardi.
“The shared genetic elements suggest that members of any Jewish community are related to one another as closely as are fourth or fifth cousins in a large population, which is about 10 times higher than the relationship between two people chosen at random off the streets of New York City, Dr. Atzmon said.
Ashkenazic and Sephardic Jews have roughly 30 percent European ancestry, with most of the rest from the Middle East, the two surveys find. The two communities seem very similar to each other genetically, which is unexpected because they have been separated for so long.”
Odd seeing the IQ gap between those groups when their populations are so closely related on top of how similar human populations are already close to each other.
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@abagond:
I’ve been away for so long, but this is so funny. 😀
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@Doug1
Well I’m not quite sure of your statistics concerning Africa? Are you citing the Wealth of Nations? I heard it was deeply flawed.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100121155220.htm
Click to access wicherts2009.pdf
I also don’t see anything wrong with the Axumite Empire, Nubia, Songhay/Mali/Ghana, Kingdom of Kongo, Kanem-Borno, Swahili cities and others early African societies.
In fact using historical references as evidence of IQ differences doesn’t work for me. I mean why did Northern Europeans wait so long to jump off?
In different eras throughout history different ethnic groups have had golden ages. Twenty-five hundred yrs ago it was the Greeks & Egyptians(currently a 3rd world country), then the Romans. In the eighth and ninth centuries you saw a lot of geniuses in the Arab world; 500yrs ago Northern Europeans and Aztec Indians(fuckin Mexico!), and now East Asia.
How does history explain places like Mexico(where Indians are currently the poorest in society) and Egypt? In the 1960s Japan and West Africa were in the same lvls of development!
I’ve already spoken about the reasons for 3rd world poverty.
1)Colonialism. 2)Cold war politics 3)Corruption 4)Multinational corporations and international banking institutions like the IMF and World Bank have exploit the sh*t out of the 3rd world.
I’ve also explained my thoughts on institutional racism.
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The Cynic–
What I’m saying is that most “mestizos” or those who have some Amerindian ancestry but mostly white and little black, get classified as white. It’s probably quite rare among whites in Brazil to have no significant Amerindian blood. Most of the breeding with full blooded Amerindians happened in early days in areas like Rio and Sao Polo, then then kept getting diluted as mestizos were sought out as wives by fairly successful whites, and 1/4 and 1/8 Amerindian bloods by more successful whites, etc.
As I understand it whites who are at the top rungs of the social and economic pyramid in Brazil tend to have very little African ancestry. Or a drop, like Adriana Lima.
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The Cynic–
Well above hunter gather level in civilizational compexity to be sure, but woop de do.
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IQ doesn’t vary greatly between large population groups in Europe most tests show.
The Roma or Gypsies are another matter with very low IQs, but then they’ve only been in Europe for about 700 years and are thought to have come from India. They were its thought probably a tribal group there, rather than from one of the Hindu castes.
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“Well above hunter gather level in civilizational compexity to be sure, but woop de do.”
None of those societies are classified as hunter-gather. Lol now I see you’ve decided to veer off from real debate and pull the “Just look at Zimbabwe!” Lol Yeah, Blacks are inferior bc… well… bc they can’t farm!
There was a lot of information you could have discussed in that post. Like why Mexico went from a Golden age era to contemporary studies finding darker skin color to be correlated with wealth. Or why Egypt is a 3rd world country today, despite being in the same development lvls as the US in the 1800s and one of the greatest societies in the world. Whatever floats your boat dude.
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The Cynic–
For god’s sake, that’s what I said. Far above, but ….
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The Cynic–
No what you just said is what’s kind of dumb.
If you happen to inherit an allele for the trait from both rather than just one parent you get Tay-Sachs. If as happens, much more often you inherit from only one parent you might get what Cochran and Harpendig theorize is one aspect of overclocking of the brain. Actually they theorize that happens more with Guacher’s genetic disease alleles.
It’s the same way cycle cell anemia happens when you inherit an allele from both parents but resistance to malaria happens if you inherit from just one.
This sort of thing tends to occur in resently evolved traits. Over time evolution figures out a way of getting the good effect more often and bad one less often by having other alleles prevent the bad effect when it’s the allele is inherited from both parents.
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I know how Tay-Sachs works Doug…
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The Cynic–
That’s ridiculous.
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Another aspect of race realism, aside from differences in terms of medicine (bone marrow donors etc), would be sports. Jon Entine has written a fair bit about this.
“says the study published in the International Journal of Design and Nature and Ecodynamics
The navel is the center of gravity of the body, and given two runners or swimmers of the same height, one black and one white, “what matters is not total height but the position of the belly button, or center of gravity,” Duke University professor Andre Bejan, the lead author of the study, told AFP.
“It so happens that in the architecture of the human body of West African-origin runners, the center of gravity is significantly higher than in runners of European origin,” which puts them at an advantage in sprints on the track, he said.
Individuals of West African-origin have longer legs than European-origin athletes, which means their belly buttons are three centimeters (1.18 inches) higher than whites’, said Bejan.
That means the black athletes have a “hidden height” that is three percent greater than whites’, which gives them a significant speed advantage on the track.
“Locomotion is essentially a continual process of falling forward, and mass that falls from a higher altitude, falls faster,” Bejan explained.”
In the pool, meanwhile, whites have the advantage because they have longer torsos, making their belly buttons lower in the general scheme of body architecture.
“Swimming is the art of surfing the wave created by the swimmer,” said Bejan.
“The swimmer who makes the bigger wave is the faster swimmer, and a longer torso makes a bigger wave. Europeans have a three-percent longer torso than West Africans, which gives them a 1.5 percent speed advantage in the pool,” he said.
Asians have the same long torsos as Europeans, giving them the same potential to be record-breakers in the pool.
But they often lose out to whites because whites are taller, said Bejan.
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The Cynic
The best estimate of American (largely Askenazi) Jewish IQ made by comparing different IQ studies of different quality is 110. However that’s a bit misleading, since it’s a good lot higher than that in verbal and many kinds of math IQ. Askenazi jews are weak on visiospatial IQ and core about 0.5 SDs below other whites on that, and the 110 IQ number includes a visiospatial component.
This paper presents an evolutionary theory supported by a good bit of evidence, for how that came about.
Click to access ashkiq.webpub.pdf
Here’s the “cliff notes” version:
The 2005 study Natural History of Ashkenazi Intelligence[2] by Gregory Cochran, Jason Hardy, and Henry Harpending at the University of Utah wrote Ashkenazi Jews are hugely overrepresented in occupations and fields with the high cognitive demands. *** The authors argue that non-Ashkenazi Jews do not have high average IQ test scores, nor are they over-represented in cognitively demanding occupations. [2]
The study argues that European Jews were forbidden to work in many of the common jobs of the Middle Ages from 800 to 1700 CE, such as agriculture, and subsequently worked in high proportion in professions such as finance and trade, some of which were forbidden to non-Jews by the church. Those who performed better are known to have raised more children to adulthood, according to Cochran et al., passing on their genes in greater proportion than those who performed less successfully. Another selection may have been that those with low IQ were unable perform such professions and drifted away from the Jewish community. Jews rarely married outside of their faith, creating a reproductively isolated population in which this pressure, the authors argue, would be able to influence gene frequency. The authors write that before this time period Jews likely did not have unusual occupations and there is no evidence of high cognitive ability.[2]
Cochran et al. hypothesized that the eugenic pressure was strong enough that mutations creating higher intelligence when inherited from one parent but creating disease when inherited from both parents would still be selected for, which could explain the unusual pattern of genetic diseases found in the Ashkenazi population, such as Tay-Sachs, Canavan disease, Gaucher’s disease, Niemann-Pick disease, Mucolipidosis type IV, and other lipid storage disorders and sphingolipid diseases. As how they might affect intelligence, the authors argue that sphingolipid disorders might promote the growth and interconnection of brain cells and that mutations in the DNA repair genes, another cluster of Ashkenazic diseases, may stimulate the growth of neurons.[6] Some of these diseases (especially torsion dystonia) have been associated with high intelligence.[2]
[For the most part studies have NOT been done on the association of these diseases with intelligence, but Cochran et al suggest they should be.]
The paper argues that the Parsi in India may be a similar case. It is an endogamous group with a high current economic achievement, a history of trading, business and management, and has a disease pattern that is different from that of their neighbors. [2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_intelligence#cite_note-cochranetal-1
Jews in Islamic lands didn’t have this pattern of occupational specialization. Greeks and Armenians te4nd to fill those roles there.
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@Swchartz
I talked about the whole center of gravity and sports in general with Randy on the Mephisto IQ post.
I don’t think anybody is surprised by physical differences in populations though. White people tend to have light skin. Physical difference. Black girls tend to have bigger asses. Physical difference. Pygmies tend to be shorter. Physical difference. Masai tend to be tall. Physical difference.
These are things people already know. If their weren’t sometimes drastic physical differences between “races” I don’t think any of us would argue over whether or not such a thing is biologically real.
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Do Black people really have muscle physiologies that favor them in sprinting? Most Olympic sprinters do possess a greater percentage of fast twitch muscles. HDBers say that this applies to the general West African descent population bc of the numbers of medals Black ppl have won. Though, is it wise to make such an assumption? Basically what you are doing is taking the extremes of a population and applying it to billions of people. Sort of like Mira’s blue eyed example.
Using occupational over-representation to define a group seems potential unwise to me. For instance some may say Blacks are naturally fit for basketball bc there are so many Black athletes in the NBA. In the 1930s, 40s, and 50s Jews used to dominate the sport and people would say they were somehow genetically perfect for playing basketball. I mean our mostly Black basketball team has been beaten by all White European teams as well as White Argentina in the Olympics and FIBA.
Anyways can someone provide a study that concludes Blacks/West Africans have more fast twitch muscles than others in general(meaning not just a study on Black athletes alone)?
http://understandingrace.com/lived/sports/index.html
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The Cynic–
You’re putting words in my mouth I didn’t say.
Some blacks are definitely smarter than some whites.
But I seriously doubt that there’s a fairly done large and representative rather than cherry picked sample of northern blacks scoring higher on IQ tests than southern whites.
Now if someone compares the average of north black professionals to working class or hillbilly southern whites, well then yeah maybe. Smart hillbilly kids tend to move to the colleges, cities and suburbs and have for a long time, leaving the not so smart behind.
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Another comment I made:
-Anyways can we really boil down Jamaican dominance to race? I don’t know if you now this, but they aren’t the only country with a 90% West African descendant populace. Damn near all of their neighbors have the same demographic. Even Caribbean countries like Puerto Rico that are “White” have high lvls of West African ancestry. Why don’t these countries wield the same results?
I also found this really nice genetic blog entry with one of the authors of the ACTN3 gene study(w a link to the study):
http://www.genetic-future.com/2008/08/gene-for-jamaican-sprinting-success-no.html
“At this point I probably should confess to having a more than casual interest in this story: I was one of the authors on the first study showing an association between this gene and elite athlete status back in 2003, and this gene has been the central focus of my research for a good part of the last six years. (The opinions I express here are purely my own, by the way, and in no way are meant to represent the views of my research institute.)
Does the ACTN3 gene explain Jamaican sprinting prowess?
The underlying argument here is intuitively simple: (1) variation in the ACTN3 gene is strongly associated with elite sprint athlete status; (2) the “sprint” version of ACTN3 is more common in Jamaicans than in individuals of European ancestry; therefore (3) this variant may well play a role in the increased sprinting prowess of Jamaicans relative to Europeans. At first blush this sounds pretty convincing; however, while ACTN3 may play some role in the disproportionate success of Jamaican sprinters, I’d argue that it’s likely to be a pretty small one. Here’s why:
The difference in frequency between Jamaicans and Europeans is not as great as it would appear. The articles quoted above describe the proportion of individuals who have two copies of the 577R (“sprint”) version of the gene; a more appropriate comparison is the proportion of individuals who have at least one copy of 577R (that is, including both R/R and R/X individuals), since it’s only the complete absence of α-actinin-3 that is reliably associated with reduced sprint performance. This starts to look less impressive: it’s 98% in Jamaicans compared to about 82% in Europeans. In other words, in both populations a sizeable majority of individuals have an ACTN3 status compatible with elite sprint performance.
The ACTN3 frequency reported for the Jamaicans by Morrison is not unique to Jamaicans, nor is it particularly surprising – our group has previously reported virtually identical frequencies in individuals from both West Africa (the ancestral source of the bulk of the Jamaican gene pool) and East Africa, in a collaboration with the same group at the University of Glasgow that Morrison has been working with on the Jamaican study. In fact, that study showed that an even higher frequency of α-actinin-3 expression (99%) is found in Kenya – in members of tribes whose members dominate international long-distance events, but have a notable dearth of representatives in track sprinting; we have more recently found similarly low frequencies in populations across sub-Saharan Africa. There’s simply no clear relationship between the frequency of this variant in a population and its capacity to produce sprinting superstars.
Finally, when Usain Bolt was pacing restlessly at the starting line of the 100 metre sprint – even in the very first round of Olympic heats – the very low frequency of X/X individuals among Olympic sprinters means he was lined up against a group of athletes who almost certainly all express α-actinin-3! In other words, while the ACTN3 variant may have played a small role in getting Bolt to the Olympics, it can’t possibly explain the astonishing advantage he has over his competitors.
I’ll concede that the small difference in the frequency of α-actinin-3 expression between Jamaicans and Europeans may result in a slightly larger fraction of the Jamaican population being suitable for elite-level sprinting (all else being equal), but it’s a tiny piece of the overall explanation at best – and it can’t possibly explain why Bolt is so much better than his fellow West Africans and other Olympic-level sprinters. Clearly there are other factors at work.”
-“They found that the Africans averaged significantly more fast-twitch muscle fibers—67.5%—than the French Canadians, who averaged 59%.”
This doesn’t seem to be a significant difference to me…
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The Cynic–
It doesn’t sound like you know much about what are variously called Gaussian, normal or bell curve distribution. Supreme math genius Gauss invented or discovered it, it represents the normal statistical distribution of level of traits and many other things in biology, and it’s shaped something like a bell curve when graphed.
A higher average level of a trait in an ancestral population or race means that a higher percentage of people in the population will have the trait at the extreme right tail of the bell curve. We’re talking here .1% will have it in one race rather than .01% will, by way of illustration.
Of those that have it at such high levels only some will have trained to fully develop it (culture, environment and other partly inherited traits like will power and drive).
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The Cynic–
Historical/cultural reasons. They don’t have the same athletic traditions most likely. Once you start winning in something there’s a tendency to build up a whole athletic program and tradition around it.
Yes culture.
No one on the hereditarian side says culture isn’t important too. Genetic and cultural difference BOTH are.
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The Cynic–
The thing is many mostly white countries DO have a white sprinters athletic tradition, or used to. The US is rather in the used to category at elite levels. But there’s Germany, Britain, Australia, etc.
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The Cynic–
The brain is a physical organ too.
People already know that black are a lot less smart than whites and have forever, ever since whites first encountered representative samples of ssAfricans in the early age of discovery contact and then slave trading days.
I mean it’s just freakin obvious. It takes one hell of a lot of mental gymnastics to think otherwise, but that’s propagandized into Americans, the Anglosphere and Western Europeans from grade school on. And by the media. In George Orwell’s 1984 fashion.
It’s just that since the 60s, and earlier in the case of some Marxists, leftists have lied to everyone else about this and lied to themselves too, for cultural Marxist ideological reasons. Basically radical equalism of results as a moral imperative. Further they’ve forced everyone else in polite society to partly believe the lies and obfuscation, but mostly to engage in doublespeak and to a degree doublethink. This is done by the leftist enforcers of political correctness, by wielding the cudgel of labeling “racist, racist, racist”, anyone breaking the taboo.
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Another really important thing about the Cochran and Harpendig hypothesis for how the Ashkenazi jews got so smart is that it illustrates how quickly evolution can work to increase the IQ of a population under the right selective pressure conditions for that.
That aspect of the paper is widely agreed among human geneticists, and was known before it, but probably not nearly as widely.
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The Cynic–
Whites did then. But Jewish whites? I doubt it.
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I’d like to disagree that all race realists are racists. I’m a race realist, and I don’t think I’m a racist. I don’t know if I’m an anti-racist or a non-racist, but I’m not down with racism.
However, Abagond has a point. I would say that 98% of those calling themselves race realists are in fact racists. That’s just the facts. That’s what makes the Race Realist Sphere a rather sickening place for those of us who are not.
HBD is a sorry group of folks, and yes, 98% of people calling themselves HBD’ers are racists. That’s why I don’t have much do with them.
I call myself an non-racist or anti-racist race realist, FWIW.
I don’t like to talk about race realism too much on the site though, because it just makes the racists come out to play, and most of the antis and Blacks get really upset at any of that sort of talk. They just can’t deal with it at all.
In the future, race realism will gain increasing credence, I am afraid. Right now it’s the exclusive province of the Right, but I think liberals should stake out some liberal accommodation with the realities of race at some point. This race denial can’t go on forever and sooner or later the evidence is going to get so massive that the deniers will be seen as foolish.
I really don’t like to talk about superior and inferior races and I try not to use that kind of language. Yes there are differences in various variables between the races, but I’m not into assigning judgments like superior and inferior to them.
I don’t blame Blacks for being hostile to race realism. The realities of race realism and everything that flows from it don’t really benefit Blacks in any way, and there is a huge downside for them.
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The current world chess champion is from India at least to my knowledge. For those who are interested or care.
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At least maybe it’s by now not too much to ask that people stop characterizing everyone who thinks there’s a lot to the human biodiversity point of view, as know nothing about the science wackos.
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@Doug1
“Whites did then. But Jewish whites? I doubt it.”
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123368994
You should of also looked through the understanding race/sports link.
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Robert Lindsay–
I think your percentages are way high unless people at places like the Stormfront are calling themselves that. Do they even know what the term human biodiversity that Steve Sailer coined, means? I wouldn’t know. I don’t go there. I do imagine they might call themselves race realists though.
Some but by far not most of the commenters at Steve Sailers seem bigoted to me. Jaded, sarcastic and cynical about PC bs, yes though.
You think Steve Sailer, Jason Malloy, Razib Khan, other writers and commenters at GNXP, Charles Murray, Cavalli-Sforza, Bruce Lahn, Arthur Jensen, Hernstein, John Derbyshire are a sorry group of folks?
I don’t think OneSTD or Chuck Ross or most of their commenters are a sorry group of folks at all either.
It’s the white supremacists and bigoted, or hating, or prejudiced (against an individual solely on the basis of his race) people who are.
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“People already know that black are a lot less smart than whites and have forever, ever since whites first encountered representative samples of ssAfricans in the early age of discovery contact and then slave trading days.”
Yeah, just like we have known forever that the Earth is flat or how the ______ religion must be right or how Bruce Lahn was correct. I mean if everybody else believes it’s true it, then it must be fact. Especially if you have no conclusive proof.
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The Cynic–
The npr story you linked doesn’t say what you asserted. It does try to sort of give that emotional impression though. It does say jews were AMONG the biggest names in basketball back then, not that they dominated it.
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Robert Lindsay–
Good idea.
I’m anti-racist as well, in the sense of being against bigotry, gratuitous racial insults, prejudice against individuals, racial hate, racial disdain, feelings of racial supremacy, and so on.
No one race is best at everything and besides what matters is what I’m good at, and not, and what an individual I’m thinking of hiring or firing is good at.
What I apply my HBD or anti-racism race realist perspective to is understanding statistical group results and making group decisions.
My HBD perspective and just looking at the real world American experience unto the fourth generation leads me to think it’s a very poor idea for America to continue letting in and letting stay so many illegal and legal heavily Amerindian unskilled Mexicans and Central Americans. They’re gonna be a plurality of the country in 35 years and of our school children in much less than that.
That’s the single most important thing we can and should change without infringing on the human rights of our citizens.
the best and most palatable way of going about that would be to let in only highly skilled (or high IQ) immigrants, as in Canada’s system for the most part.
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Most of those people you have listed are indeed racists, I think.
Jensen, Sailer, Murray, Jason Molloy, Razib Khan, One STD, yes! All of them, they are all racists. It takes a while to figure it out, but it’s a fact with all of them. They just sort of hide it well.
I don’t know about Derbyshire, Herrnstein and Lahn.
Cavalli-Sforza is not racist.
See, this is the whole problem with race realism. It just naturally leads right into racism, and that’s where most everyone goes with it. It’s pretty hard to subscribe to race realism and still maintain a non-racist or anti-racist stance.
You are correct that the continuing importation of low-IQ, low-skinned, poorly cultured mestizos from Mesoamerica is a catastrophe, from a cultural and race realist POV. I have nothing against importing mestizos, but I want them to have to take an IQ test and score at least 98 or so.
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The Cynic–
Your side has no proof of any kind, conclusive or not, that IQ differences are entirely due to environment or cultural differences, and not at all due to genetic ones.
There is a lot of proof that IQ differences are partly due to cultural differences or in extreme cases other environmental ones — an no hereditarian intellectual denies that.
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The Cynic–
For one thing, if you know much about evolution and human evolution it’s just extremely unlike that separate breeding populations (for the most part, except in clinal regions) that were that for many thousands of year and 10s of thousands of years haven’t developed different average amplitudes of mental traits.
Populations have a diversity of trait amplitudes around a mean created by different alleles so as to allow evolution to quite quickly, in as little as 40 or 50 generations or less, shift to a different more advantageous distribution of the amplitude of traits.
It’s know that nearsightedness is correlated with 7 or 8 higher IQ points. There’s a hunting and other cost to nearsightedness, a benefit in literate civilizations as well to the IQ points. This is also a clearly genetically created IQ differential effect.
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@Doug1
“The npr story you linked doesn’t say what you asserted. It does try to sort of give that emotional impression though. It does say jews were AMONG the biggest names in basketball back then, not that they dominated it.”
Check the fourth question. The Jewish presence in the basketball was prominent enough for people to believe they were inherently built for it. Myths of certain Jewish specific genes that made them good at basketball. Their was also several prominent Jewish basketball players in London also.
http://understandingrace.com/lived/sports/index.html
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Robert–
There’s regression toward the ancestral (usually called racial) mean.
I only want to important reasonable numbers of higher IQ people (compared to the non AA receiving one) , or more rarely those with some other very high skill. Great actors, dancers etc.
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Robert–
Racist in the sense that I used above, in saying I’m anti racism as well?
I really don’t agree with that at all.
What about their views do you think is racist, since you obviously believe as an anti-racist race realist that there’s a heritable or genetic component to IQ differences?
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It’s to the point where arguing with people like Doug is like trying to sail a sinking ship.
Or f*rting in a wind tunnel, hahaha!!! Of course none of the HBDers are racists, they just hate n*ggers, sp*cks, g**ks and all other racialized people. Unlike the toothless klansmen and white supremacists, they just won’t admit it!
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I read Sailer for years before I figured out he was a racist. You just have to figure it out on your own. The last straw was the “nig*ers and beaners caused the financial crisis.” That is such a racist outrage of a theory that I am just speechless. And he’s hostile to Blacks.
Murray is a racist. He’s a Libertarian. That means he wants the losers in the genetic lottery to die. Notice how almost all these HBD types are Libertarians? That’s racist right there. Also, Libertarianism gets rid of all anti-discrimination laws, and I really think most race realists want to get rid of those laws. Their Libertarian politics is an aspect of their racism. If you’re really race realist, you ought to be a liberal. If some races are less intelligent and others are more intelligent, what right do the gifted races have to more stuff? And it’s hardly the fault of the slower races if they screw up, and the gifted races are obligated to share with them and help them. We have to rethink the whole winners and losers thing.
Jensen wants to get rid of all anti-discrimination laws. All these guys do. Wanting to get rid of all civil rights laws flows naturally from race realism. It’s a real problem!
Molloy, Khan and One STD are all hostile to Blacks. One STD is also hostile to Hispanics.
I’m officially agnostic on whether the IQ can be surmounted or not. It’s possible that Blacks could close the gap with Whites. Sure, genes play a role, but that does not mean the gap is uncloseable. I only say that there are IQ differences between the races, and these have important outcomes. In today’s society, that’s revolutionary talk right there. Look at James Watson.
I’m not worried about 98 IQ Hispanics regressing to the mean. It’s a ridiculous idea. If everyone regressed, IQ’s never would have gone up in any group.
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Herneith–
What’s a racialized person?
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Race realists are just a bunch of desperate racists who try to use pseudo-science or simply deliberately distort or maliciously misinterpret valid scientific studies to support their views they have always harboured. Intellectually and morally biased racist mofos.
Id’d like to perform R. Kelly on you cretins.
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I smell bigots miles away. You cannot hide your agendo from me. You are too transarent.
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Viswanathan Anand (India)
World Chess Champion (2007-present)
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Robert Lindsay–
Not when there’s a selective advantage in the form of having more adult children, maintained over enough generations to create a higher average IQ in the population.
Children don’t always regress towards their weighted ancestral mean from their parents IQ. (Weighting grandparents and great grandparents much more than 8 generations back in other words. ) It’s a statistical tendency. Sometime kids are smarter than their parents even when their parents are smarter than their ancestral mean. It just doesn’t happen that often.
Regression halfway or so to the mean is more likely the further from the ancestral mean the kids parents are. There are smart family trees and dumb ones. Kids also sometimes get a lucky spin of the genetic roulette wheel among their ancestors’ genes, and land on a really smart ancestor out of a sea of average ones, so to speak. Regression toward the racial mean in that case is much more likely.
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Do HDBers focus on any other populations besides Whites, Blacks, and East Asians?
Do South Asians have any special abilities that are worth talking about? How about Arabs? Any behavioral traits that explain why the blow up buildings? Wait… did that last question sound too racist or maybe it’s not so bad cuz I was only tellin the truth! 😛
Seriously though it feels like these races are only used bc they fit a certain “purpose.”
White-The superior race
Blacks-100% animalistic inferiors
East Asians-The race you only use to prove your not a racist
Put em all together and you have the classic story of American racism from its inception to present day! Of course it’s not racist cuz it’s science. That makes it factual and a lot more prettiful than hanging a bunch of n*ggers on a noose.
🙂
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Whites do not have some sort genetic IQ advantage over everyone else. Neither do Asians. Whites are on top through an accident of history. If whites really did have this genetic heritable superiority, they would’ve been on top since the beginning of history.
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Robert–
Because the more competitive earn more stuff in free exchanges, and because I’m not a communist or radical equalist in results. People aren’t equal. I can’t star in the NFL or earn tens of millions as a rap star.
So you’re essentially saying that all HBDers who aren’t left liberal are racists.
That’s rich.
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Has anyone else noticed that those commenters who express the most disapproval towards racial or genetic classifications seem to be the ones who use racial epithets in their discourse?
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Robert–
Short of learning how to do genetic manipulation that effects IQ, the only way of doing so is likely to be by denying whites some enrichment program that’s given to blacks. Do you think we should knock white kids in the head with a ball peen hammer for good measure too?
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So you’re essentially saying that all HBDers who aren’t left liberal are racists.
That’s rich.
Unfortunately, they are. The only way to be a non-racist rightwinger is to reject race realism. Think about it. Left-liberalism is the only conceivable moral option in light of race realism.
And since when does the fact that Blacks do great at sports begin to address the serious lagging behind of Blacks? Not every Black can be a million dollar sports or rap star you know? A few Blacks making big bucks in movies, rap or sports does need mean that everyone in the ghetto can get a job like that and hit the bigtime.
Because the more competitive earn more stuff in free exchanges,
But given Blacks 13.2 pts discrepancy in IQ, they will always lag behind in income, jobs, housing, etc etc. No matter how hard they try. That’s the reality of race realism. That it doesn’t really matter how hard you try. IQ is destiny.
The notion that wildly unequal populations can possibly have “free exchanges” of any sort of preposterous and actually sick. That’s an anarchocapitalist notion.
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Robert-
Only if you’re a small c communist. Or a radical socialist aka a radical equalist in results. Which I’m not.
IQ effects destiny in many areas of human endeavor but it’s not destiny. How hard one tries make one whole hell of a lot of difference in life outcomes also.
Something like half of the IQ gap is likely due to cultural differences which could change, if blacks wanted them to.
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Robert–
Of course not. But so what.
Why do all races have to be made equally successful on a statistical average basis, as a moral imperative?
I don’t think there’s any other race in the world, except for whites, which tries or is expected to try to raise the outcomes of minority races or ethnicities within it’s midst to be as successful as they are, if they aren’t already.
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Oy. Vey.
Reading through the short exchange about Jewish populations actually made me want to theoretically vomit a metahorical diatribe of turd onto the sad, sorry state of some people’s intellectual capacities.
For the record, “Jews” as a category is not based on race, or ethnicity, but on religious culture. And even then, there are vast differences between groups of Jews — from Ethiopians to Europeans. The world of Jewry is incredibly diverse, yet people keep wanting to package the stereotypes of Jews onto ONLY White, European Jews.
Well sorry to burst the bubble but I AM JEWISH. And I can definitively tell ya’ll that Jewish IQ is based on environmental and cultural factors (among them anti-Semitic prejudice) — not genetics. There is no “gene” for being a “smart Jew”. So give up trying to use my people as some sort of example of your
race-realistracist science. The Nazis tried many of the examples Doug and other HBDers are espousing, and not only did they fail — they were consequently wiped off the face of the Earth.Ashkenazim cannot be considered an ethnic group because Sephardi Jews have always been intermingled with them, especially since the Expulsion of the Jews from Spain during the Reconquista. Even more importantly, the globalized nature of the Jewish population since the beginning of the Diaspora has limited any ability for Jews to genetically isolate themselves. There has always been mixing, and shifting, and changing identities/nationalities as Jews adapt to the locations in which they live. This is why the Kaifeng Jews are not White or Middle-Eastern, but ethnically Chinese — because being Jewish is not a race, though the sociocultural effects on Jews often operate like those that operate on race.
I don’t know how many times people will have to tell other people these simple facts, but it seems that I’ve been saying this since kindergarten, when I had to explain why I never celebrated Christmas.
Being Jewish is a religion, which is part of a culture, and no amount of “blood” (despite what the overly Orthodox may attempt to tell you) can confirm or deny your Jewishness. You are Jewish by believing in Judaism. End of story.
So trying to isolate Jewish IQ is like trying to create a vacuum in the middle of a storm — you end up ignoring everything that’s going on which create the statistics you’re pretending are factual.
Simple anecdotal data is enough to disprove the “smart Jew” stereotype as being genetic. Nobody talks about the hundreds of thousands of poor, uneducated Jews in America who are told they are a rare exception to some “rule” of Jews’ ability to make money and be smart.
Fact is: rich, smart Jews are just as rare as rich, smart White people. (Which are far, far rarer than merely rich White people.)
So let’s stop talking about Jewish IQ like it’s some concrete, shall we? It’s a stereotype, just like so many others in America.
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Robert–
The populations aren’t wildly unequal especially just from genetic differences.
Besides that’s like saying that someone of moderate IQ who buys an iPod or iPhone and makes Steve Jobs who has a much higher IQ, is not making a free economic exchange is ridiculous.
People aren’t born equal except in human worth and as a matter of political and moral belief human rights, they don’t develop equally as their culture and micro culture and other environmental aspects further shapes them. That’s just the biological scheme of things for us and other mammals and so on. Radical socialism has never been successful for long.
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Robert–
How many Chinese and Japanese elites think that?
Only leftist Euro intellectuals and media think that.
Though sure, if it were letting them in on some development secret or something, sure.
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China has a Communist society that has always tried the egalitarian approach. Japan is a socialist country that is one of the most equal countries on Earth in terms of wealth. These are communal societies that don’t like radical individualism.
Ethnic Chinese are what? 3 times smarter than Filipinos and Indonesians. Then logically they deserve 3 times the wealth. Instead, ethnic Chinese, 3% of the countries, have 70% of the wealth simply due to their IQ’s. There is no way on Earth that that is just or correct in any way.
I see that like 99% of race realists, you are a rightwinger.
Let me explain this to you. Race realism goes right along with conservatism. The idea is that the brighter races deserve everything they have due to their genes, and that, since the dumber races fall behind due to their genes, they deserve their fates and to Hell with the, let them die. The rich deserve every nickel they have due to their supergenes, and the poor deserve every misery they have due to their crap genes. All redistribution attempts go against nature and are doomed anyway. All money spent on the genetically inferior poor is wasted due to their crap genes, so let’s zero out all social spending and turn the US into a 3rd world society.
They are trying to say that science has given the stamp of approval to their wealth and privilege and the same science has given the stamp of approval to the misery of the poor.
And yes, because you are a race realist and a conservative, you are de facto racist right there. There’s no way around it.
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Robert Lindsay said:
So what? I’m Thai and we have an average IQ of 90. That’s about a 15 points behind Koreans and Japanese. Does that mean that it’s the northeast Asians’ duty to take care of Thais? Is there something wrong with simply co-existing and trading with one another? Trading and foreign investment has helped Thailand raise it’s standard of living far better than handouts ever could.
Your condescending paternalism is actually what’s sick. No free minded person feels it’s his right to be taken care of by someone else or that he is owed the riches of others.
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Of course the richer countries have a duty to give foreign aid and help to the poorer ones.
Thais live in Thailand. Japanese and Koreans live in Japan and Korea. So there’s no problem with some nations being rich and others being less rich. But I have a major issue with cases like the US where Blacks lag far behind, live in ghettos, etc. while Whites rule the land. And Whites don’t even deserve their riches. They were given by nature. Blacks don’t deserve their fate. That’s out of their control too.
It’s either paternalism or contempt and dismissal, that’s your choice once you go race realist. There’s no other options. Whites can’t very well “trade and invest” in Black ghettos and bring them up that way. It’s ridiculous.
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To Rob:
Of course the richer countries have a duty to give foreign aid and help to the poorer ones.
Well the irony is that the US is heavily in debt to countries which are poorer than itself. I think it’s fine to give aid for episodic disasters (the Asian Tsunami or the Haitian earthquake..) but handing out cash usually seems to have some strings attached or falls into the wrong hands. It’s probably better to provide technical assistance.. show people in poor countries how we did XYZ etc. Even then that can create problems.. a country like the US uses a huge amount of petroleum for it’s food production and relatively little labor such that the US agricultural model should probably not be applied to a continent like Africa with it’s current level of development.
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[…] only place I’ve been writing lately is at Abagond’s blog on this thread. If you like to read my stuff, or you want to join in the fray, mosey on over there and make […]
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Robert said:
Oh so, you’re the kind hearted White guy that wants to lend a benevolent hand to the downtrodden races of the world. Basically you feel sorry for Blacks and all the “lesser” peoples and those who don’t share your pity is a racist.
Spare me your bleeding heart.
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***And I can definitively tell ya’ll that Jewish IQ is based on environmental and cultural factors (among them anti-Semitic prejudice) — not genetics.***
Have you done any studies to confirm/disprove the Harpending/Cochran/Henry hypothesis?
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***Jensen wants to get rid of all anti-discrimination laws.***
That’s news to me. Where has he said or suggested that?
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@Schwartz:
If it’s a hypothesis, then I don’t really need to disprove it now do I? The burden of proof would be on you, and whoever else espouses it.
That said, if you’re looking for “proof”, then I’d suggest you start with Stephen Jay Gould for the general background information so you as a layman can actually understand the information necessary, and then try these studies by:
Gilman Sander, Are Jews Smarter Than Everybody Else?. This article explores the sociocultural constructions of “Ashkenazi Jews” and “intelligence” for the subjective labels that they are, and thus unable to be scientifically applied to any population, especially Jews.
Andrew D Clark’s (population geneticist at Cornell) assessment of Chochran (et. al.)’s article, which can be found by researching Cochran’s study at The New York Times’ website. (I won’t link articles directly for fear of getting my comments in moderation.)
Brian Ferguson, How Jews Became Smart. This article explores the failures of Cochran (et. al.) to understand the historical and religious culture of Jewish populations across time, and how this lead to their unique development as a transnational group of people. Basically, he proves that Cochran doesn’t know ANYTHING about Jews, yet attempts to study their IQ in isolation of their environment (and, apparently, their genes, according to the following article…).
And finally, a study done by the Emory School of Medicine, headed by Warren & Ann Pulver, which was published just last summer. This basically refutes the entire notion of Ashkenazim as an isolated population, as well as the silly theories surrounding their associated inheritable diseases.
So there you go. 4 studies, plus my own lived experiences as a socio-religiously Ashkenazi Jew.
Now, you can attempt to dismiss my evidence if you want, but trust me: you’ll still be wrong.
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Has anyone else noticed that those commenters who express the most disapproval towards racial or genetic classifications seem to be the ones who use racial epithets in their discourse?
I’m just putting your views in concise and realistic terms so everyone understands what it is you are really trying to say which is:
F*ck all n*ggers, sp*cks, g**ks etc. without baffling them with further bullsh*t!
Because the more competitive earn more stuff in free exchanges, and because I’m not a communist or radical equalist in results. People aren’t equal. I can’t star in the NFL or earn tens of millions as a rap star.
Why not? In the rodeo they have clowns who cannot ride a horse or wrestle a bull. Despite this they are quite well paid! As for Rapping, look at Weird Al Jankovic! He made millions singing ‘In an Amish Paradise’!
But given Blacks 13.2 pts discrepancy in IQ, they will always lag behind in income, jobs, housing, etc etc. No matter how hard they try. That’s the reality of race realism. That it doesn’t really matter how hard you try. IQ is destiny.
What’s your excuse?
Something like half of the IQ gap is likely due to cultural differences which could change, if blacks wanted them to.
You may have a point. I have tried very hard to win the lottery over the years but to no avail! If I try harder will I eventually win?
I don’t think there’s any other race in the world, except for whites, which tries or is expected to try to raise the outcomes of minority races or ethnicities within it’s midst to be as successful as they are, if they aren’t already.
Help a sister out Doug!
How many Chinese and Japanese elites think that?
Chairman Mao did! He helped millions of chronic opium smokers overcome their addictions by helping them into the great hereafter. How about good ol Tojo?
Does that mean that it’s the northeast Asians’ duty to take care of Thais?
No, but it is your duty to kiss white behind.
No free minded person feels it’s his right to be taken care of by someone else or that he is owed the riches of others.
Ever heard of marriage? “What’s mine is mine, what is yours is ours” says the wife! Lord men are dumb! Figures they would come up with iq tests! Anything to get away from the wife!
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Herneith–
You’re a joke. You mock yourself.
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I appreciate what you’re doing here, Robert. It is difficult for me to reconcile my progressive economic views with my racial outlook. I applaud you for trying to explain.
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Addendum:
Though I don’t know why you bother on this particular site.
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Wait… when Doug1 was saying he could never be a rapper, he wasn’t boiling that down to genes was he?
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doug: “Europe had had the highest civilization in the world for the 1000 years from 500bc to the final fall of Rome around 500 ad.”
No. Rome was never the highest civilization, it was one of the biggest and strongest. Actually romans copied and stole ideas from neighbouring people at will and claimed them their own, usually for military purposes. The only thing that the romans had above their neighbours was their army. It was the first professional army in the history. Other than that, they did not invent that much of anything original.
Romans also destroyed whole sale other civilizations so we do not know what they had or not. Just to give you one example: the famous roman roads. Well, they were not actually roman.
The Celts had road network in Europe hundreds of years before the romans. Celts also had much more accurate and better calendar than romans, who were celebrating mid winter in spring etc. The Celts had farming machines which were again invented in the west in 1800’s. They had thriving cities, gold and silver mines all over the place. That is why Julius Caesar marched to Gaul and killed third of the whole population, proudly saying that he killed women, children and old people too. The romans also grazed Jerusalem to the ground so we do not know what wisdow was lost in that destruction too.
Mesopotamians had batteries used for galvanisation before any romans showed up. Greeks, of course, invented steam machine, mathematics, geometry, physics, philosofy, coin automats, extremely complex machines etc. well before romans came and thoughed that their statues were white (whihc they weren’t) and copied that style too.
The chinese were using aluminium as a decorative metal in their military belts in 140’s AD when in the west the aluminium was “invented” in the 1800’s. Chinese also had newspapers, powder, compass and other such stuff way before the romans.
Also, think about this: when Attila the Hun showed up, he extorted thousands of pounds of gold from them at will. Why, if the romans were still the highest civilization? Because they were not. It is just a myth. Rome was powerful and big, it had its arts, litterature and system, but if you read history you notice that so did others. Parthians for example.
One also has to remember that Rome at its peak had a system in which whole populations of towns and cities flocked to so called circuses to watch thousands to die for their amusement. If I remember correctly, emperor Trajanus had “games” which lasted more than 100 days during which some 10 000 humanbeings were slaughtered. That is not too civilized, is it?
And finally, when Rome became christian, well, it was down hill from there on. Thanks to the roman christians we do not know that much of the science of the Antique. Christians destroyed the Serapeium in Alexandria and hunderds of thousands of written documents along with it, they burned the collection of Pisistratus in Greece, again hunderds of thousands of carefully preserved documents and books etc.
So, I would not be that exited about Rome alone.
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Dr. G: Abagond linked me. Otherwise I don’t really like to hang out here. Abagond and his commenters and I just see too many things from too many different points of view. There’s not a whole lot of room for common ground with these folks and me.
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@doug; Yo, what do you mean the whites can’t rap? They can, with their superior intelligence. Want some proof? Here it is:
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***If it’s a hypothesis, then I don’t really need to disprove it now do I? ***
Steven Pinker & James Crow have pointed out it is quite reasonable and would be easy enough to test. Unfortunately, political considerations mean it hasn’t happened.
***That said, if you’re looking for “proof”, then I’d suggest you start with Stephen Jay Gould***
Hahaha. Yeah, maybe if I wanted to get a misleading polemic.
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@zek j evets
“And finally, a study done by the Emory School of Medicine, headed by Warren & Ann Pulver, which was published just last summer. This basically refutes the entire notion of Ashkenazim as an isolated population, as well as the silly theories surrounding their associated inheritable diseases.”
I haven’t had the time for to go through all the info you dropped, but thx 4 this.
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“Through genomic analysis, researchers at Emory University School of Medicine have shown that the Ashkenazi Jewish population is genetically more diverse than people of European descent, despite previous assumptions that Ashkenazi Jews have been an isolated population.”
“Only six of the 21 disease genes that we examined showed evidence of selection,” Bray says. “This supports the argument that most of the Ashkenazi-prevalent diseases are not generally being selected for, but instead are likely a result of a genetic bottleneck effect, followed by random drift.”
http://shared.web.emory.edu/emory/news/releases/2010/08/analysis-of-ashkenazi-jewish-genomes-reveals-diversity-history.html
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Haha, if Stephen J Gould is “misleading polemic” I can’t imagine what you must make of modern science!
I mean, when you say things like this you remind me of the kids in my classes who don’t understand why Samuel George Morton couldn’t predict intelligence based on brain-size! (One of many ideas which has been proven wrong, but was once used for pseudo-scientific racism.)
However, feel free to go through the information. But keep in mind that without the foundational knowledge, you’ll miss a lot of the important stuff. Do you happen to have any background in anthropology, biology, genetics, or another related field?
Seriously, this stuff is NOT for Your Average Joe to easily digest. (Despite the multitude who are HBDers that attempt to.) I mean, Steve Hsu is a professor of theoretical physics (a difficult subject!) and yet even he can’t grasp these concepts!
So, I guess… don’t feel bad if you don’t understand?
And try NOT to continue with the anti-Semitism, okay?
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@The Cynic:
You’re welcome for the knowledge bombs =)
I am a pretty big fan of anthropology, since I am getting a degree in the field, and it bothers me how often people with no background on the subject attempt to create their own fantastical world from bits and pieces of false information they SAY comes from scientific research.
Also, I hope you notice that I didn’t just link the genetic data for them — because the problem with their conspiratorial insanity is not merely a refutation of scientific data, but also a confusion so immense, it goes beyond semantics and into perfect ignorance.
The labels used in HBD arguments are often full of assumptions which are never proven, and based on conjecture that is more precarious than a stack of Jenga blocks! All you need to do is cite the proper data, and one need not even make their own argument to cause them to crumble ; )
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@ Zek, Rob, Sagat:
Excellent comments all!
@ Leigh:
Hi!
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@ Doug1:
1. Please provide sources for the first paragraph.
2. Just so you know, I do not secretly agree with you. This idea that blacks have less inborn intelligence than whites just does not match my experience. Blacks have less education on average, yes, but not less intelligence. Certainly not on the scale suggested by IQ tests. No way. It is not “freakin obvious” to me.
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Did Abagond just complement me? Wow. Thx Abagond.
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RL wrote “It’s either paternalism or contempt and dismissal, that’s your choice once you go race realist. There’s no other options. ”
How about individualist?
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What is the individualist approach?
I would differ from Abagond. I believe that Blacks are currently less intelligent than Whites on average. Whether those differences are due to genes, environment, or whatever, remains to be seen.
Blacks in the US seem to have made up a lot of ground. Based on genes alone, the US Black IQ should be 71.5 or so. Yet it is 86.8. So Blacks in the US have mysteriously gained 15.3 points in the last century on Whites, in addition to Flynn gains in which both Blacks and Whites are gaining. The Black IQ in the US apparently continues to rise. Also, in the last 100 years, Black head size increased very much. Some was environmental, but it also partly genetic. I believe that in the last 100 years, Blacks have been preferentially selecting for “Whiter” and higher IQ phenotypes among Blacks. This coincided with liberation from slavery.
We can hypothesize why this is. Both Blacks and Whites have been selecting for more progressive phenotypes over archaic ones in the last 200 years, such that Whites and Blacks now look more alike than either looks like their 1700’s ancestors. So Blacks and Whites are converging on a more progressive, higher IQ, less archaic phenotype.
Also the environment has probably been increasingly Black head size and Black IQ.
Since Blacks have already closed the B-W gap by 14-15 points, the point remains about to what extent they can continue to close the gap.
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The terms “obvious, intuitive and common sense” have no place whatsoever in natural science. Science is all about permanently reiterated, tedious work that may or may not lead to a plausible conclusion. “We’re not sure yet or we don’t know and quite possibly never will” is a phrase often heard in science, however always stated by serious scientists.
Those junk scientists make claims as if their work delivers an ultimate definite answer to everything. To the point they seem to assume that all research in social sciences for the reasons for inequalities can be stopped now. (Now under a totalitarian regime, that social research would quickly be obliterated by using brute force. But that’s another story.)
Declaring “race” in humans as a scientifically sound concept, without delivering a shred of unambiguous genetic evidence that goes beyond mere interpretation of (partly outdated) empirical data for the validity of its “intuitive” definition, is academic hooliganism.
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zek j evets
@Schwartz:
Yes, the left always decides that the burden of proof is on someone else.
And meanwhile goes about lying left and right, as is sanctioned for the “greater good” by Marxist-Leninest principles.
Radical feminists are especially practiced at this.
But so too are race deniers, like you.
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Robert–
Liar.
From the first IQ tests done in the early 20th century blacks where about I SD or 15 points below whites in IQ.
Different tests with different sample sizes give slightly different results. So the picture at the finest detail isn’t 100% clear.
It may be that black have made up about 3 IQ points, from 18pts below whites to 15 by the 60s or 70s. There hasn’t been any gap closing since.
As part of the left’s pervasive pattern of dishonesty on ideologically sensitive issues for it, leftist extreme envirnomentalists have often liked to claim gap closing by comparing the IQ results of younger children today, with the gap comparing young adults for decades back. It’s known the the gap doesn’t fully manifest itself until around 17 or 18.
Our IQ genes aren’t fully phenotypically expressed until then.
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Doug1:
I have a comment policy to help keep the discussion somewhat civil. There is a link to it at the top of every page and right here:
If you continue calling other commenters names, like “cretin” and “idiot”, I will ban you.
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Doug1:
Rob is right: black Americans should only have an IQ in the low 70s if you go strictly by genetics. So somewhere they picked up over ten points, which would have to come from the environment somehow.
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Doug1 said:
“It’s known the the gap doesn’t fully manifest itself until around 17 or 18.”
Right, because that is age at which the American public school system has done its most damage to blacks.
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Genotypically, US Blacks should have IQ’s of 72 or so. African Black IQ is 67. Caribbean Blacks with a bit of White in them have IQ’s of 71 or so.
African IQ = 67
+
15% White genes IQ = 100
Gives us a US Black IQ of 72 or so based on genes. The fact that US Blacks score 87 is completely unexplained.
Even Charles Murray says Blacks gained 7.5 points IQ on Whites since 1920.
Since you’re the genetics guy, how can you explain US Black IQ of 87 genetically? You can’t. Show me how you come up with that.
Interestingly, Jamaicans in the UK also have IQ’s of 86, around the same as US Blacks. In Jamaica, their IQ is 71 or so. Jamaican UK IQ started going up a lot with the second generation.
Indians in the UK have IQ’s 95 or so. IQ in India is 82. They got a 13 pt gain just by moving to the US.
Filipinos in the US have IQ’s of 94. In Philippines it is 86. 8 point gain.
Moroccans in Holland have IQ’s of 89. In Morocco it is 84. 5 point gain.
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In other words, it can hardly be race-related?
(No, wait, I forgot I left this thread a while ago).
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abagond–
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abagond–
Right.
Because the public school system in ssAfrica by comparison does so brilliantly for them.
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Doug1:
You are allowed to call someone racist on this blog because racism is a common topic. And, in case you think that is some kind of double standard, I get called racist more than anyone on this blog.
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abagond–
I’ll try again, and see if you again censor this:
Let me see if I’ve got this right.
It’s perfectly fine around here if people repeated call someone “racist” who opposes bigotry, racial insults, racial disdain, or prejudice against an individual solely on the basis of their membership in a race, but it’s utterly impermissible to call someone a cretin for saying something really unintelligent?
Have I got that right abagond?
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abagond–
Saying dumb things is also a common topic.
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If I do a post on cretinism, then you can use the word.
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Doug1:
What is your definition of racial disdain?
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RL wrote “What is the individualist approach?”
This is Shawn. For some reason my name wasn’t entered right. I just suggested it on your blog. You try to help the individual with the low IQ. This way all low-IQ people can be helped regardless of race.
Maybe people should get a subsidy based on their SAT scores or something like that. I dunno.
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Someone asked, in this thread, “What is an individualist?”
Simple. It’s a person who takes all people at face value, and doesn’t judge them based on some simplistic, media-driven stereotypical image. It’s a person who sees the individuals around them and accords them their individuality while maintaining their own. It’s a person who doesn’t pigeonhole or catergorize others, nor do they comport themselves in a way that allows others to pigeonhole or categorize them.
Their individuality stands out because they are who they are. They need no artifice to ‘get by’ in the world. They don’t need to ‘fake it to make it’. They don’t need to demean others in order to feel better about themselves, because they are confident in themselves and their abilities.
In short – an individualist is ME. I AM.
‘Nuff said…I officially remove myself from this thread. The stank of racist C U Next TuesdayS is too vile for me to swim through anymore! 😀
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LMAO. And I thought it was just me who felt somehow unclean reading some of these comments.
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@ Abagond & sepultura13
Quote by Doug1
No further questions, your honour…
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abagond said:
“And I thought it was just me who felt somehow unclean reading some of these comments.”
😎
We’re not alone, my friend…not alone at all.
It looks like doug and his ilk have effectively and officially hijacked and derailed this thread – I’m just waiting to see who will be the ‘Last Man Talking’! 😉
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Yes, the left always decides that the burden of proof is on someone else.
And meanwhile goes about lying left and right, as is sanctioned for the “greater good” by Marxist-Leninest principles.
Radical feminists are especially practiced at this.
But so too are race deniers, like you.
Oh, I don’t deny the existence of race. It’s obvious in everything from education to employment, the levees in New Orleans to the projects in Oakland.
I just don’t agree with you that race is genetically or biologically determined. Race is, and always has been, a sociocultural construct.
You keep mentioning the “Left”, “Liberals”, “propaganda”, “censorship”, and string them together into some VAST conspiracy. But can I ask you something: if this is a conspiracy, then why is nobody preventing you from saying anything?
The only thing we’re doing is disagreeing. Hardly evidence of a conspiracy designed to strangulate “facts” or “truth”.
But mostly I just wanted to let you know that a “hypothesis” in scientific vernacular is something which needs to be proven. A “theory” is something which has already been tested with evidence and proven to be true.
So that’s why the burden of proof is on the people saying there’s a conspiracy and attempting to convince the majority of the population that we’re insane, or ignoring your arguments.
Sorry if that feels unfair, but that’s the way the world IS, and crying about it like somehow your this misunderstood intellectual pariah does not, and will not, change our minds.
But good luck trying!
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The type of thinking described as “Race Realist” in this post is obvious lunacy and is easily discredited in many ways, among them being the multitude of exceptions which, when contemplated as a whole, negate the rule.
Here is just one:
http://www.slate.com/id/2285549/pagenum/2
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Abagond & Family:
Race is a major factor in life, and always will be. Race-Reality and Race-Neutrality don’t see eye to eye. I’m a pro-black, pro-blackwoman, and pro-freedom blackman surrounded by blacks and whites who insult my intelligence. My persona is blunt and abrasive to a lot of people, but it’s necessary. I’ve seen a lot of black people in my lifetime get run over by other blacks, whites, asians, government, hollywood, etc. We can all get along, but I’m not gonna be anybody’s lapdog. I get along with everybody, but I don’t assume that everybody else wants to get along with me. Tribalism will never allow race-neutrality to exist in the real world. Men are too competitive and jealous of each other, and, I don’t see that reality changing anytime soon. Women, power, and money make the world go round, and anyone who thinks otherwise is in denial. Everybody wants to be on top, regardless of racial background.
Tyrone
Intellectual Boxing
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@ Tyrone
As you said, don’t be anybody’s lapdog because that’s exactly what those “race realists” want you to be.
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***zek j evets
Haha, if Stephen J Gould is “misleading polemic” I can’t imagine what you must make of modern science!***
Zek,
If you want a reasonable introduction to psychometrics try Ian Deary. Gould is ok in some areas, but in psychometrics he unfortunately avoids evidence that contradicts his position (up to date MRI imaging on grey matter volume, twin studies, chronometric measures etc). You could read some of the work by Jim Flynn or David Bartholomew in terms of factor analysis too.
***I mean, when you say things like this you remind me of the kids in my classes who don’t understand why Samuel George Morton couldn’t predict intelligence based on brain-size!***
This is the type of strawman that makes Gould a polemicist. The reality is more nuanced than that, as intelligence is indeed linked to grey matter volume, cortical thickness & myelination integrity (Nature Reviews Neuroscience 5:1-13, June 2004).
In fact Gould somehow managed to completely miss Leigh Van Valen’s meta-analysis showing this correlation in his 1981 book. That might have been forgivable, but it’s hard to understand how he could miss it again (along with more up to date MRI imaging results) in 1996. People did bring it his attention, but he was too dogmatic to consider it.
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***Steve Hsu is a professor of theoretical physics (a difficult subject!) and yet even he can’t grasp these concepts!***
Can you elaborate on what precisely Hsu fails to understand?
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Then again, the so-called “average IQ 70” among Africans (which ethnics?) is exceedingly questionable if not absurd.
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I agree completely.
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Zek—
(Liberal is misnomer and a euphemism for leftist cooked up by FDR leftists to make their views seem more traditional American and edging over towards socialism. Liberal in Europe and most of the rest of the world means something more like libertarian does here (free trade, free speech, free enterprise, free competition of ideas, openness to learning from other cultures) though that’s often called neo liberal because people do know of the American usage. )
You’re putting words in my mouth, as many others have done here.
I never called it a conspiracy, characterized it in that fashion, or said it works that way.
Instead the leftist enforcement of cultural Marxist created political correctness for all elite knowledge workers and many others, works more like a religion without a pope or even a well established hierarch. Believers think there are moral imperatives involved. People do email each other though and decide to go after certain things, but it’s done in a networked way.
The way policing is done by like minded leftists is by labeling those breaking taboos “racist”, or wanting to do “racist research” or “racist science”, or “sexist research into (psychological sex) differences”, or engaging in “blaming the victim”, and so on.
The censorship is by after the fact punishment if you say things in a wide public forum under your own name lending your own prestige or high position to it. So an ad hoc cabal of left/liberal journalists and academic called for and succeeded in pressuring the firing of one of the most eminent geneticists alive, James Watson. They did so by writing outraged and innuendo dripping opinion pieces and rehashing highly slanted news articles, interviewing geneticists and other academics about their reaction, that is the ones who’d tell the left/liberal reporters want they wanted to hear, with academics who might think Watson is clearly right, keeping shut so as not to have their own head or anyway careers chopped off, promotions end, and research funding becoming hard to get.
All this was for saying what was demonstrably true in an offhand, hoping to be helpful remark to a friendly female British newspaper reporter. From memory he said: “It worries me that all our development aid and efforts for Africa assume they think just like us; but all our intelligence testing shows, not really”.
But yeah using pseudonyms on the internet does allow more communicating without this kind of censorship.
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Femi–
It’s what the many scores of IQ tests that have been done in ssAfrica have shown. It’s not a collection of the lowest scoring ones. It’s an average of all the decent ones that have been done.
They’re generally IQ tests done on school kids.
There are environmental and cultural factors depressing the results no doubt.
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***Race is, and always has been, a sociocultural construct.***
As are most categories. This doesn’t get around the point that geographically separated groups of human beings in fact exhibit measurable genetic differences. There are average differences in physical and maybe other traits. Isn’t that what race realists acknowledge?
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@Schwartz: Psychometrics is not the same field as genetics or biology, or even anthropology. It has implications which corollary to those fields, but they’re looking at different evidence, and more importantly, looking at it from different perspectives.
Namely, psychometrics is concerned with IQ and tests, measuring educational and psychological ability — NOT the genetic or biological basis for what cause those measurements.
Also, Ian Deary is a PSYCHOLOGIST, specializing in mental ability among the aged.
So, yeah… I’m, not sure how you tie any of that into the topic at hand, but I’m sure it’s a fascinating non-sequitur.
Besides which, you failed to contradict, or even address the evidence already presented before you disproving your hypothesis regarding Jewish intelligence. Changing the subject does not change you being wrong.
However, if Gray Matter is going to be your Red Herring, let me drop a knowledge bomb for you:
Only 6% of Gray Matter in the brain is related to IQ.
Not really a big fish in the debate on our Western concept of intelligence. This kind of argument is a variation of the craniometry argument I made fun of earlier.
Also take note: the different kinds of intelligence that a person is born with also need to be developed to have any meaning. A musician with a large Broca’s Area, but who never plays a musical instrument, is effectively not musically intelligent — though they may have the potential to be so. This is why you MUST talk about environmental factors, or else you’re missing half the picture, if not more.
As for Steve Hsu, he too fails to grasp the environmental effects on human development, both individual and general. It’s a common failing among wanna-be’s in fields they’re not studied in to mistake the forest for the trees.
However you are right about one thing: Gould IS a polemicist.
But then again, so are “race-realists”. The name itself is polemic, assuming that the rest of us are somehow UNrealistic… Or involved in some cover-up, according to Dougian logic.
So, please, by all means cry and complain that Gould is a mean old polemicist! But try to AT LEAST stick to the argument at hand, instead of jumping around to a different topic every time I puncture your neatly pre-packaged prejudice.
This is why Gould engages in polemics, because insanity is deaf, and so we’ve got to yell sometimes in order for you to hear us. Which is why I got mad respect for Kanye West ; )
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@Schwartz:
As are most categories.
I’m going to assume you admit that race IS a sociocultural construct, since you just tacitly did.
Good job!!! I’m so happy for you =)
Because now that means we can agree that since race is a sociocultural construction, that attempting to define it genetically or biologically is not possible, especially since physical features (the main component of the argument) are subjectively assigned and thus not scientific. Which means race-realists are actually — and I can’t believe you admit this — WRONG!
Yeah, like I said: I’m so proud of you!!!
Because humans don’t demonstrate enough genetic variation to account for any sort of difference in intelligence, and all good science has disproved the connection between race and intelligence, ad infinitum.
@Doug:
I put no words in your mouth. I am merely taking what you said to a logical conclusion and asking questions which end up making you look silly by comparison.
The fact that your opinions are based on conspiratorial political diatribe instead of science (saying that a large group of people are colluding in fraud is, by definition a conspiracy) is proof to me that you are a little crazy.
Who else but a crazy man would call our country Marxist?? I mean, besides Glenn Beck.
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Zek–
I haven’t called most of the people in our country Marxist. Read for comprehension.
Anyone who doesn’t realize and acknowledge that there are enforced taboos in this country that generally go under the ruberic of political correctness, is either a thorough ideologue, lying or real dense.
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zek–
Why was Larry Summers, fired from his position as president of Harvard? For violating feminist taboos by suggesting what research evidence has increasingly shown are the real reasons women are under represented in the hard sciences, math and engineering: 1) their own choices in a variety of ways; and 3) a considerably smaller percentage of women have abilities in math at the extreme high end, due to women having the same average, but a somewhat narrow distribution of IQ, and especially of math IQ.
Sure people can disagree, but why was he fired for saying this, after a firestorm of feminist academic and mainstream media upset and heavy snark.
It’ was very similar in a different area but falling within the same cultural Marxist or New Left set of taboos, to why and how James Watson was fired.
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Doug,
I never said you called most of the people in our country Marxist. I said you called our country Marxist.
Please read for comprehension, right? =)
Anyhoo, I don’t see what Larry Summers’ remarks have to do with race-realism. He’s talking about gender — not race.
Stay on topic, much?
Instead of making vague pronouncements of cultural Marxism, and New Left taboos, why don’t you actually describe how these processes work to keep information from the public. Because not even James Watson would agree with you at this point.
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***NOT the genetic or biological basis for what cause those measurements.
Also, Ian Deary is a PSYCHOLOGIST, specializing in mental ability among the aged.***
I thought you were referring to Gould’s writing on iq, for the “layman”. I was suggesting that there are far better introductions, such as Deary’s.
In terms of the biological basis for those measurements, that is actually something Hsu has been looking at with the Beijing Genomics Institute.
***Besides which, you failed to contradict, or even address the evidence already presented before you disproving your hypothesis regarding Jewish intelligence. Changing the subject does not change you being wrong.***
Since when is it my hypothesis? It’s a hypothesis. I’m not sure why you singled out Clark’s comment in the NY Times article. It then goes on to mention another population geneticist David Goldstein who was more open to the idea.
Fergusson’s paper seems to suggest that Cochran & co are arguing that the boost is just caused by the disease causing mutations. The authors position, as I understand it, is that selection would have changed allele frequencies at many loci.
In terms of the Bray paper, I note that the authors acknowledge that the tests might not have been powerful enough to detect selection of some disease loci. Also, you might find John Hawk’s comments of interest.
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It seems like Doug1 has made a point (shocking, isn’t it?) If whites receive better education, then white boys and white girls would generally be well-educated above their non-white counterparts. However, why do white women score lower in the math and sciences than white men and fewer white women become scientists or engineers as compared to white men? Can this also mean that blacks are intellectually inferior to whites? It seems that white men dominate the math, science, and engineering departments over women?–or do they?
Part of the reason why so few women become professional doctors, engineers, or scientists is that many women desire to have children and raise a family. A career like that would obviously dissuade many women from pursuing that goal. This is something that men don’t have to worry about–taking almost a year-long hiatus to have and nurture children.
Furthermore, if women choose to take the professional route, their husbands will get ahead and be making progress ahead of their wives while their wives are busy.
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***I’m going to assume you admit that race IS a sociocultural construct, since you just tacitly did.***
I do. Although sometimes when people say that they seem to imply that means there is no biological element to it. On the other hand they have no difficulty appreciating that something like adolescence is a social/cultural construct (and has fuzzy boundaries), but it also has some biological basis too.
***Because humans don’t demonstrate enough genetic variation to account for any sort of difference in intelligence***
How do you know this?
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@schwartz:
If you’re the one arguing for it, then in this conversation it’s your hypothesis.
And yes, Gould is a better introduction for the layman, because Deary isn’t an expert in the fields of biology, or genetics. Gould is. And we are talking about the biological/genetic basis for intelligence. (Or lack thereof.)
I singled out Clark’s comment in the article because he is a particularly prominent scientist, and to demonstrate that the information you’re talking about isn’t — as Doug would have us believe — widely believed but hidden for PC reasons.
As for Ferguson’s paper, you seemed to miss the point that he argues that Cochran doesn’t understand the context of intelligence, its development, or Jews, to know what he’s talking about.
And you barely seemed to have touched the Bray paper, except to note their candor in admitting where they were weak ; )
(Something I rarely see in HBD contexts.)
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I was wondering whether I should give a response to Doug’s comment about my comment or not because it seems like those with a white supremacist/race realize mindset would likely hold on to scientific beliefs that blacks are inferior intellectually, behavior-wise, or whatever. Against my better judgement, I decided to express my view.
Doug, the point I was trying to make is that no matter what a POC or a white person who disagrees with you say, in the end it’s all about the usual focus and conversations on “what’s wrong with black people.” You can try to rationalize it as much as you want, but it boils down to your belief that blacks are scientifically inferior to whites.
Now, I will come out and say that I haven’t studied genetics or its sciences. I also don’t have any proof of my own to back up what I’m saying. I guess in the eyes of many people like yourself, that automatically disqualifies me from speaking my mind on this issue. However, I do know that the so-called sciences that support racist, white supremacist beliefs have some political and social agendas behind it to justify policies against groups of people. It parallels to the lie about the War on Drugs.
I thought about something as I read comments like yours, Doug. I thought about how black people are ALWAYS under a microscope when society tries to figure out its flaws or our flaws. Black people are ALWAYS examined to find out what’s “abnormal” about them especially when it concerns crime, poverty, drug use, education, etc. It is very rare to hear about ANYTHING positive concerning blacks outside sports. Why? Partly because of the belief that blacks are athletically superior.
Even if genetics is a factor, and I’m not agreeing that it is, does that give mainstream society the right to continue it’s institutional racist policies against blacks? Answer me that.
Also, like I said I don’t know much about genetics, and I have read the two articles, but why is it you’re obsessed with genetics of a particular race and not with individuals in general especially within your own group, and if we go by race, why don’t we examine why whites rape, rob, set fires, sexually molest little children, etc. etc? Why do whites have a hard time seeing humanity in nonwhites? Why do whites cause more polution disasters than any other group of people? Is it because they are genetically inferior? Is something genetically abnormal with them?
You see where I’m going with this.
I don’t need to be scientist, a science major, genetics scholar, or whatever to hear, see, and read something that is racist. You may want proof that what I’m saying holds some validity. I personally don’t have any to give you, but does that mean what I’ve said doesn’t hold weight? You see, I’m tired of having to deal with people that believe the same thing. It ultimately says that I’m not human. Do you know how it feels not to feel human or normal, that you were a product of God’s mistake, that your words, knowledge, and/or emotions do not matter, that you’re destined to fail because of some genetic mutation associated with your skin?
That’s my point, and I will no longer try to debate with you not because I won’t win, but because you already made up your mind about me and my people.
Later, Doug.
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@schwartz:
And I know that humans don’t contain the genetic variation to connect race and IQ, is because of all the articles I’ve linked, and people I’ve mentioned that you — apparently — just forgot…
Gould
Ferguson
Bray
Gilman
Sternberg
Diamond
And a whole host of others, which comprise an overwhelming majority of the scientists in our country and around the world.
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***And a whole host of others, which comprise an overwhelming majority of the scientists in our country and around the world.***
If you’re looking at the US, you need to consider the Snyderman Rothman survey which suggests the pure environmentalist explanation for group differences isn’t widely held. At least amongst members surveyed from the APA, Behavior Genetics Association, American Sociological Association & Cognitive Science Society.
A similar updated survey, which covered more geneticists would be interesting. Although ultimately these things are a bit pointless when so much is still being uncovered.
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@doug:
“Instead the leftist enforcement of cultural Marxist created political correctness for all elite knowledge workers and many others”.
When? Where? How? Who were these leftists who enforced this to all elite workers?? Comissars? Party Red Gurards? I missed this american red revolution somehow. From where I stand it seems that since Bill Clintons (who from european point of view wasn’t much of a leftist at all) days rightwingers had a field day in USA. You remember: “If you are not with us, you are against us” and that sort of righ wing rethoric. But maybe I was wrong.
You also seem to have something against feminists, too. I wonder are you old fashioned catholic. You know, the present pope gave a statement in the 60’s that feminism is anti-christian religion, when he was just a cardinal running the Holy Inquistion. Yes, that survives too, it just changed its name to something else.
This whole race issue is a political for you. You try to make it look like it is about science, but then in some of your posts openly go for political rethorics and arguments. From these posts of yours I have drawn the conclusion that you represent far right politically. I may be wrong here, but all this talk about feminists, left, other races and how goverment aid to the minorities and downtrodden should be canceled makes it look like that.
Now, I have no problem with that. It is your god given right. But what bothers me is this attempt to somehow connect science to your politics. Specially the race science. Race politics have a bit sinister reputation, you know. From apartheid to all kinds of genocides. From holocaust, which was also argumented by race science, to american race segregation.
These are not positive things. These are not good things. Oppression and killing of others because of their race is not considered to be civilized nor good behavior. It is not nice. You will argue that you do not do such things. Perhaps, I do not know, but you are trying to construct somekind of argument for those practises with your race theories. You understand? You stand beside of herr Hitler and others.
Now, if you really do belive in those kind of things, be my guest, but do not attempt to argue otherwise. You can not be a racist and neutral at the same time. You can not ride a car to the north and south at the same time.
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@Schwartz:
I am well-acquainted with “The IQ Controversy” and while I found the study interesting (as did most scientists, at the time) I still understand that when you set out to document liberal bias, by definition you are already committing confirmation bias. By supposing that there IS liberal bias, you have already made your conclusion, and are merely going out to create evidence for it. And that is not ethical scientific research.
(If you’re reading this Abagond, you may want to do a post on this book actually, as it quite an interesting read for all the misinformation it holds.)
So, I’d say they contaminated the experiment before they even began. However, in the spirit of the conversation, I will admit — freely — that there are issues surrounding intelligence which cannot be explained by genetics OR environment, and are possibly caused by an intersection of the two.
I think this is most obvious when documenting intelligence among those who suffer from mental disabilities (Down Syndrome, ADHD, Asperger’s, etc) though the contradictions become rather difficult when dealing with savants.
But what I find most telling in this debate is that there has never been a comprehensive study (to my knowledge) which examines the questions of race and intelligence from a multi-discplined approach — that is, biology, genetics, psychology, anthropology, primatology, psychometrics, linguistics, and others. There is no “definitive” work on the subject which incorporates all of the data these approaches have gained.
I lament this lack, because I believe it would be useful in moving past these inane debates.
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@Calculator
“However, why do white women score lower in the math and sciences than white men and fewer white women become scientists or engineers as compared to white men? Can this also mean that blacks are intellectually inferior to whites?”
I don’t think it is wise to compare sex to race. Blood flows through a females vagina every month. They have organs that are completely different then men. They can get pregnant. Their may not be a single race that has a unique gene, but their definitely aren’t any females with a Y chromosome. The ubiquitous biologically differences between males and females is blatantly obvious and their is tons of credible research on those differences.
Biologically speaking a White male is genetically more similar to a Black male than he is to a White women. Agree or disagree with Larry Summers if you want, but no one denies the biologically reality of sexes, race is obviously still being debated…
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@Sam
“This whole race issue is a political for you. You try to make it look like it is about science, but then in some of your posts openly go for political rethorics and arguments. ”
Yeah I also realized this a while ago. It’s sort of funny how he attempts to prove that race is biologically valid when it is clear he has more of a problem with race in the social/political realm. Of course he believes the two are related and his opinions appear to be fixed so…
I personally don’t believe race should have anything to do with politics, unless we are talking about anti-discrimination laws.
Racism is a tribal, survival of the fittest type thing that is fueled by economics, so I guess I shouldn’t be surprised their are people that want to connect it to politics.
@my last comment
Ugh!!! Grammatical errors galore!
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However, why do white women score lower in the math and sciences than white men and fewer white women become scientists or engineers as compared to white men?
I must say this thing is cultural and not race related. In my country it’s not like this. There seem to be a little more male engineers, but not natural scientists. There is an equal number of male and female students of mathematics, chemistry and physics. With engineering, there are more males, but they don’t make a significant majority.
So it’s more of a cultural thing (that females do worse in math) than a real deal.
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There is a reason why race realism leads logically to rightwing, even far rightwing politics. Even the few Blacks I have met who were race realists were Hard Rightwing Blacks.
All you have to do is think about it.
Race realism and the notion that Whites are superior and Blacks inferior as proven by science itself absolves Whites of all responsibility for the plight of Blacks and of any duty to do anything to help them. Anyway, race realists say that since all Black problems are genetic, any social spending on Blacks is money down the drain. This includes education, urban renewal, you name it. So you see Whites are entitled to 100% of their wealth and are not obligated to share it with inferior Blacks, who due to their lousy genes, would just waste the money anyway.
Blacks are entitled to 100% of their fate as it is nature’s destiny. All social spending must be zeroed out since Blacks are hopeless cases. Also all redistributive economics is immoral in taking from the superior and giving to the inferior.
It essentially ratifies the worst of capitalist social relations in the West and in the world for that matter (Why help Africa? Let them starve!), while pouring cold water on discrimination theory, social spending and progressive economics as idiotic, useless and immoral.
You will find that an incredible number of these folks are actually Libertarians. Of course Libertarians want to zero out social spending and don’t believe in redistributing one nickel of wealth. Also, Libertarians oppose anti-discrimination laws.
This race realism thing is political not scientific in 98% of the cases I’ve seen. There’s an agenda here folks, and it ain’t clear eyed empiricism!
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Robert,
By a similar token, doesn’t the (mostly) left-leaning mantra of “racism everywhere” also suggest a monolithic ideology, taking away the agency and responsibilities of communities for their own welfare via soft paternalism?
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Yes, I don’t agree with the Racism Everywhere theory. That’s the theory that all of the various discrepancies in B-W performance on all sorts of variables can only possibly be due to racism. It’s an interesting theory, but I don’t think there is anything to it. Yes, racism exists, and I doubt if anti-Black racism does Blacks any good. To what extent it effects them is uncertain. The Racism Everywhere theory also results in a neverending jihad against racism, which will end? When racism ends? Which means never. Even when racism gets to low levels, Racism Everywhere folks keep searching for all these new secret and arcane forms of it that are often hard to even define or describe.
Now mind you, I reject racism. I want to treat all humans as well as I treat Whites as a goal.
The truth is that racism will never end. I will die and it will be going on. So the war on racism is absurd. You’re fighting against something that will always be there with the notion that somehow you will get rid of it.
I don’t mind paternalism, but I don’t think people should reject responsibility either. I find the idea that Blacks are the same by nature as Whites yet all these discrepancies occur due to Black folks screwing up and acting the fool to be very insulting to Black people and I reject it. If Whites and Blacks were totally equal by nature, and all of the problems of Blacks were their own darn fault, we could frankly wash our hands of Blacks and say the Hell with them and let them drown. That’s where Personal Responsibility theory leads you and its an ugly place.
I don’t believe it’s all Black people’s fault, so that’s why we Whites have a duty to assist Blacks.
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“The truth is that racism will never end. I will die and it will be going on. So the war on racism is absurd. You’re fighting against something that will always be there with the notion that somehow you will get rid of it.”
Fighting against racism is about making progress. You can debate the significance of how much progress we have made but I would say that there is a general consensus that we have made progress. So to say the war on racism is absurd….is absurd.
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I find it interesting how Randy’s social conservative-leaning posts on the need for greater responsibility seem to draw more controversy than the arguments being made for black genetic deficiency. There seems to be a sentiment that blacks are incapable of improving their situation, either because of racism or genetics, and should not be expected to reform their defective attitudes and practices (like every other group does). It’s a recipe for disaster in my opinion.
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“The many scores”? The number of analysed tests is in the hundreds (on a continent of about a billion inhabitants) according to what has ever been published.
Average of all the decent ones? That statement alone trashes its credibility. Where are the test questions, conditions under which the tests were made and results in all their details, one by one? Perhaps my search skills leave to be desired but I couldn’t find any details, only consolidated figures (which can be rigged easily).
Even if all of this was serious and earnest empirical research, all it would yield is correlation. Nothing more.
Where is the unambiguous scientific proof of direct causation of “race” to intelligence?
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Just an add-on.
IQ 70 is considered “mild mental retardation” or “borderline”.
It should make everybody wonder how this would be possible under mental retardation or “dullness” in countries with an African population of 98% and higher. (There are similar realities in Dakar, Douala, Accra etc)
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FG:
That is a false dichotomy. The fact that group’s collective level of achievement depends, in part, on its biological endownment does not mean that no progress is possible. Blacks, for example, definitely can improve their socioeconomic situation by adopting middle-class values (“acting white”) and rejecting the victimological outlook.
Robert Lindsay:
Yes, by providing an example to live up to. But for this, whites have to regain their own cultural confidence and stop revelling in racial masochism.
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“we Whites have a duty to assist Blacks.”
I would say we have a duty to get the f*ck out of their way and let them help themselves.
What’s with all this paternal sh*t? How condescending.
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nonserviam: “Blacks, for example, definitely can improve their socioeconomic situation by adopting middle-class values (“acting white”)”.
There you go. This is what these guys are about. Their ideology, like all similar ones before this one, comes from the same well as all fascistic ideologies; white middle class. No wonder they do not see anything wrong with it.
I say, never ever adopt middle class values if it means what these guys represent. Do your own thing as long as it does not include hurting anybody. You want to dye your hair green and tattoo spider web on your face? Please, do so. Main thing is that you are free and happy. Free most of all mentally. Free your mind and the rest will follow.
Freedom is the Enemy for guys like these. For them Freedom is chaos. They talk about freedom very easily, but can not stand it. That is why they want to schackle it. Contain it. Limit it. They want to put it into jail, into spiritual prison. Never ever accept that. Always try be free. All ways seek Freedom, real freedom. Freedom from a world that is locked up by the Fear and Hatered.
There are no other rules in this world than this one: treat your fellow man well. It includes the respect to their beliefs, faith and habits. I may not like everything under the sun, but I will never tell anybody you have to be like me or you have to adopt middle class values ( what ever they are) and “act white”. That would be extremely dumb, disrespectful and fascistic.
I have never lived like a white middle class person in Europe nor in USA lives. I have always lived the other way. I have always wanted to be as free as I can. Not on the expence of others, not irresponsibly, but on my own account. I choose to live like this. I want to live this way. I pay the bills, pay my bills, pay my taxes, do not live off the society, on any body elses taxes, but I will never ever put on a suit and tie and hold authorities in awe.
I will never ever believe in church, state, politicians, officials, leaders and holy men just because. Nobody will limit my life under no circumstances. If I follow the rules and laws it is because I want to, not because somebody tells me to do so. I won’t cut my hair, my beard, cover my tattoos, behave neatly or listen to muzak. I will never ever follow any leader. I walk my way.
I’ve been in countries that once tried to force everybody to live alike. They were called communist. And here is nonserviam offering the same medicine for all the n*****s. Wow!
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Sam,
You appear to have a severely perverted understanding (or indeed, none at all) of what middle-class values actually are. Well, here’s the reality: they consist of personal autonomy and self-reliance, law-abidingness and aversion to violence, respect for intelligence and learning (including the ability to question the established orthodoxies), industriousness and thrift, ability to control impulses and delay gratification, to name a few.
True, much of current middle class fails to live up to these standads. And therein lies the root of many of today’s problems.
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so, here’s an idea. Did we all see this today?
I imagine that these so called race realists are shocked by this news, I mean from the looks of things blacks and whites are roughly in the same boat income wise when you take a step back. At least when you compare us to those in the top, second, middle and 4th. I mean shouldn’t income levels be more rigidly aligned with IQ? And i’m sure all those rich elites got there because of all their hard work and super high IQ’s. Riiiight.
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Copied from wiki.
The American Psychological Association’s report Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns[65] states that IQ scores account for about one-fourth of the social status variance and one-sixth of the income variance. Statistical controls for parental SES eliminate about a quarter of this predictive power. Psychometric intelligence appears as only one of a great many factors that influence social outcomes.
I don’t know what
“Statistical controls for parental SES” means but it sounds like it knocks that 1/6th a bit more. Correct me if i’m wrong.
So maybe we can drop the idea the it’s IQ that’s holding blacks back and so we can just wash our hands of the whole thing. That’s clearly a self-serving and incorrect assumption.
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@nonserviam:
”
You appear to have a severely perverted understanding (or indeed, none at all) of what middle-class values actually are. Well, here’s the reality: they consist of personal autonomy and self-reliance, law-abidingness and aversion to violence, respect for intelligence and learning (including the ability to question the established orthodoxies), industriousness and thrift, ability to control impulses and delay gratification, to name a few.”
Well I belong to that category since I am middle aged, middle income and white. If you had read my text carefully I said that if those values are the ones you guys promote, do not accept them or follow them.
In which class self-reliance and personal autonomy are not valued? In which class aversion to violence is not a good thing? Or in which class violence is ok? In which class there is no respect for intelligence or learning? I know none. You seem to imply the poor blacks. Or just simply wrong colored and poor people in general.
My father grew up in a house with no in door plumming, two rooms, eight kids, father working away most of the time, with little or no possibilities for education. He worked as a helper in logging camps from the age of twelve and every summer in any job he could, just to help his family. They were not the poorest but not the welthiest either. His mother was a barber, had her own barber shop when she was fifteen etc. But they were not middle class.
My father never had a formal education, but he attended to labour unions free courses and workers college courses. He became the editor of the largest magazine in Finland. He also was the longest working editor in the history. His work career lasted few decades and during that time he transformed the whole field of weekly publishing in here trough his invetions and work. He actually made two different magazines the biggest in the country, one after the other.
He teached to us kids, that we should never let anyone decide for us what is right and what is wrong, what or how we should live our lives. He always told us, since I can remember, that we can do anything and be anything we want, that it is our right, if it does not hurt anybody else. That was his only condition. Never hurt anybody else. “When someone tells you that he has the right answers, that is the time to be very critical” he used to say.
What values my father had? He was not from middle class, was he? No. So, according to you, he could not have been industrious. He could not have been self-reliant, since he was not from the middle class. And yet, he did stand against the president and goverment, protecting his staff, when they were pressured by the leadership of the publishing company and those powerful men. He was the most successfull editor also commercially. How did this happen, since he did not have those middle-class values??
You forgot to mention in YOUR middle class values the one you mentioned above: act white. You also forgot to mention the black middle class. Or any other than white american middle class.
But I understand you. You belong to that large group of people who lean on the right politically and is affraid that your way of life is loosing out. Economic instability, which by the way is the result of unregulated financial business (also promoted by the political right), is also haunting you guys. There is nothing sure anymore, thanks to the de-regulation of the economy and big business. Both again pet projects of right wing politics.
Your remedy for your own fears and uncertainty is racial politics and demands for “acting white”. Fascism has always been the project of the middle class, where ever it has risen. It is the fear of middle class that feeds the growth of such thinking. In your thinking there is a lot of fascistic elements, such as the demans of black start to act like whites. Such demands for uniformity and obidience are basically fascist. And that is not a good thing. At least not in my mind.
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That sounds much like values of the Douala, my grandmother’s ethnic group. I’m sure there are many other ethnics in Africa (and around the world) with those values. It’s most likely fundamental to all humankind, with more or less exceptions in each group.
What I’ve noticed is that the ones who preach them the loudest are often the ones that practice them the least.
Correct me if I’m wrong but it seems that Sam is referring to the arrogance of some to assume certain values to be innately absent in others and to suggest to impose them by using whatever methods. It’s not a reference to any benign values themselves.
(Sam) “I say, never ever adopt middle class values if it means what these guys represent.”
I double that. (“these guys” = “race realists”, HBD-ers etc)
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@ sam
You’ve posted while I was still typing. I just read it after I posted 😉
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@femi: you got my point, my friend. 🙂
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Once again (unsurprisingly), a complete inversion of the truth. A strong middle class is a foundation of the civic society — the main guarantor of liberal democracy.
In fact, fascism is much more popular among the underclass and the elites — for the former, it promises unearned social elevation, for the latter, it ensures their stranglehold on power.
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@nonserviam: noup. fascism has always been the middle class answer to uncertain times. Just take a look how and why it was born in Italy. Just look why and how it gained momentum in Spain. Just look at the reasons behind the rise on nazis in Germany. When ever the middle class has felt its very existance is at stake, it goes towards fascistic ideas.
Germany had lost the WW1, there was super infaltion, national humiliation, foreigners acting up with their mighty currencies, political unrest, street fightings and riots, gays had come out, cabaret milieu was at its most powerful stage mocking openly conservative values and modern art was incomprehensible. One party had the right answers to the pain of the vast middle class suffering: the National Socialist Party, the nazis. And they got their votes from the middle class.
Fascism was and still is most popular among war veterans and small time goverment officials. Frei Korps in Germany were formed by war veterans against the red guards of the poor. Black shirts in Italy were formed by former war veterans and small time business men, middle class precisely. It was and still is middle class thing, just like it is your thing and comes out from your writing.
Leftist ideas are more popular among the poor because they promise betterment. Fascism does not promise anything for them. Communism did. Communism promised the even up everything, no more poors nor the rich. It promised a revolution, an total upheaval. That is why they voted communists in Germany in 1920’s and early 30’s. Untill the nazis forbade the communist party.
Fascism promised to keep everything as it had been in the near past. Fascism promised secure and orderly society without civil unrest, hooliganism, safe streets and well behaving kids. It was and it is in its core a middle class thing.
The elite supported nazis and fascists because they, being elitists, believed that they could control it and use it in their fight against communism. They supported the nazis and fascists because these could guarantee tax reliefs and goverment deals for them.
You really should study history more carefully.
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Sam, I’m honestly learning a lot from you. Thanks for the info.
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To Sam:
You appear to have a severely perverted understanding (or indeed, none at all) of what middle-class values actually are..
It would appear he defined middle-class values as they pertain to the United States… not to Europe. Note.. we are taking about values and not economic status, since in the US about 90% of the populace has defined themselves as middle-class. I can’t say I fully understand what middle-class means on the continent but I do understand it has a different meaning in Britain than the US. Basically the values he listed were originally most commonly associated with the Presbyterian and Episcopal church but came to represent a pretty good portion of the US at one time .. and as Femi noted.. one certainly does not have to be White or American to hold these values. Probably the current group in the US that has the highest percentage of people who hold these values would be NE Asians.
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@uncle: yeah, I thoughed so too. I think european middle class is something different. In Europe middle class political spectrum can be huge, from Greens to National Front, from Social Democrats to Conservatives, but for some reason in USA they tend to think diiferently, with much more emphasis on conservative religious backround. Might be the connection to the presbyterians and episcopals, as you mentioned.
I was just trying to show him how his racist views, right wing politics and demands for “acting white” rise from the same well as did the fascism in Europe last century. And how, as it was, the majority of supporters and active members in fascistic movements were middle class people who were affraid that their way of life was under attack somehow. Similar concerns the american neo religious right has now a days.
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For the record, I am not an adherent of any religion or ideology (although I dislike some more than others). I simply follow my own conscience and common sense.
The only “right-wing” positions I support is razing the race industry to the ground and sawing the ruins with salt, and radical curtailing of both legal and illegal immigration. Otherwise, I consider myself a classical liberal/libertarian.
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sam,
I’m dismayed at your use of racial epithets, even though you mask them with asterisks. What gives?
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@randy: Really? 😀
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Whose gentle sensibilities are you protecting, abagond?
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Robert Lindsay,
“Murray is a racist. He’s a Libertarian. That means he wants the losers in the genetic lottery to die. Notice how almost all these HBD types are Libertarians? That’s racist right there. Also, Libertarianism gets rid of all anti-discrimination laws, and I really think most race realists want to get rid of those laws. Their Libertarian politics is an aspect of their racism. If you’re really race realist, you ought to be a liberal. If some races are less intelligent and others are more intelligent, what right do the gifted races have to more stuff? And it’s hardly the fault of the slower races if they screw up, and the gifted races are obligated to share with them and help them. We have to rethink the whole winners and losers thing. ”
Minor point: I don’t know much about Murray (I’m assuming you mean the writer of The Bell Curve), but the term Libertarian really has nothing to do with the social Darwinists which co-opted the name (much like how those with authoritarian politics have often done in the past). In fact, outside of the US the term Libertarian is a more ‘polite’ term for a Anarchist (generally Anarcho-Communist). It’s just that the “Libertarian” Party (and its misguided and blind supporters) took the term for their own purposes.
Here’s an interesting interview on the likes of “Libertarians” in the United States by Noam Chomsky:
http://www.distantocean.com/2008/04/chomsky-on-libe.html
Wish I could find the quote on how the Libertarian Party really got it’s name.
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Getting back to the original question of racial realism:
One, I really wish that more people were realistic about race especially those who call themselves race realist. Most of race realists are just flat out racists who couch their racism in numbers with very little understanding of science. (it’s not really their fault they’re idiots) From a biological perspective you can obviously differentiate between the race in physical but the key questions is what does that get you? The answer is diddly squat 99%+ plus of the time. A Norwegian who moves to Africa is going to need sunscreen and Kenyan who moves to Norway is going to need to supplement with vitamin D — this falls under the head line of big frigging dead. The differences inside the races, phenotypes, ethnic groups and individuals are just as large or larger as those found between the races.
I for one consider my race to be those who are intelligent, literate, and have a sense of morality that they struggle to apply to themselves.
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I’m a race realist and this is the reality that I’m talking about:
I define race properly as “regional ancestry.” When I say that race is “real,” I mean that it is not a “social construct”; by this I mean that race (or regional ancestry) has genetic and taxonomic significance.
If someone would like to debate this idea let me know. I find that race deniers like to post a lot of snarky comments but never like to debate issues.
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It seems as though “HBD” has grown rapidly more mainstream over the past two decades. Most of the explanations I’ve heard for racial inequality during the course of my life focus on poverty and discrimination or culture. I’ve never seriously entertained the race realism argument but rather have pushed it out of my mind because I find it disturbing. Nevertheless, considering the issue more closely, people of this persuasion have an interesting worldview. It is fascinating to think that the region where your ancestors came from leaves an indelible and distinctive mark on your personality.
I’m especially curious about the HBD arguments as they relate to mixed race people. The racial ideology which underlined eugenics legislation under Jim Crow (and is prevalent in the country to this day) is that African ancestry is hyper-inferior and hyper-dominant. That’s why the need was felt at the time to label the so-called quadroons and octoroons as black and eject them from white communities.
There are other views. I believe in Brazil eugenicists thought that the problems of African ancestry could be ameliorated through race-mixing, so they adopted the opposite policy of the US. Furthermore, hybrid vigor theories have been popular in Latin America and even had proponents in the antebellum South. It seems that this concept is making a comeback. Alon Ziv came out with a book recently (Breeding Between the Lines) arguing for heterosis effects in humans.
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