The following is based on “The White Chamber”, a post by commenter Victoria at her blog, An Apparent Intensity. This is how I understand it – she might not agree with everything I say:
The white chamber is not a room: it is anywhere in North America where two or more white people are gathered out of earshot of people of colour. If they feel comfortable enough with each other, like with family or friends, they might make racist comments, stuff few would ever say in mixed company. Sometimes even white strangers will presume upon a shared skin colour and make a racist comment.
The strange thing is this: most white people have been in the white chamber plenty of times and have heard all kinds of racist things said, and yet they still believe that only cross-burning, n-word-using backwoods redneck sorts are racists. Certainly not the good white people they know. Not the ones who go to church on Sunday or help their neighbours.
Why is that?
Victoria gives an example of the sort of thinking that leads to it:
Imagine you are white and are walking through the mall with a new friend of yours, also white. You pass some black girls. After they are out of earshot, your friend gets closer, lowers her voice and says something racist:
God, black chicks are so loud! Ghetto much? I’m not racist. My roommate is black, and she’s just so loud.
The girls who just passed by did not seem particularly loud to you, but then again you were not paying attention.
If you are racist like her, then you will not even notice her racism but just laugh and agree.
But if you do not share her racism, then you have two seconds to make a decision:
- If you say nothing, it will lead to an Awkward Silence. Your friend will conclude she cannot talk like that with you. You will always have the uneasy feeling that maybe she is racist.
- If you disagree and speak up (what Victoria advises), it could mean an argument. Most likely it will end the new friendship since no one likes being called a racist.
But there is more going on: people want to think that their family and friends are good people. They want to think they themselves are good. So there is a need to not take racist comments seriously, to find excuses to overlook them, like the having of black friends. There is, in fact, a need to push them out of your mind and forget them altogether.
This is what I call the fourth wall of racism: the wall of white society. Most white people are blind to their racism, but many of those who are not keep quiet because they must get along with other white people, most of whom are racist and who can make things ugly for anyone who calls them on it.
See also:
- “The White Chamber” – read Victoria’s post
- The five walls of racism
- How to become white
- growing up white
- The Good Darky Fallacy
Very true. I grew up in an environment where calling people out on their racism would be total social isolation and probably violent reactions too. So I didn’t. I didn’t participate, but I didn’t say anything either. Am I a coward? Was it my responsibility to sacrifice my own social welfare–permanently–to have the satisfaction of knowing I took a stand, to zero effect anyway?
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I so understand this. I am not one to keep quiet about racist comments from others, and recently I had to stop associating with my family, because my father has a wife and step kids who think nothing of making bigoted comments, as long as they don’t use so called “hate speech”. They do not consider the little negative comments they make about other races to be racism
Every time I would hear something, and was about to speak up, I would get chastised by my father, told that I should not speak about my ideals.
So, rather than keep my mouth closed, I decided that I just could not attend these functions anymore without expressing how I feel.
Maybe it is the cowards way out. Maybe I should go one final time and tell the whole lot of them off, but, frankly, I do not think it would make a damn bit of difference, because I am always seen as being the one in the wrong. It does not help that they use my disability to dismiss anything I say.
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I am familiar with this. Despite my white mother being married to an East Asian man, on rare occasions she still makes stupid racial comments. Mainly because her mother (who believed my East Asian father would kill and eat his own children if my mother left him alone with them) instilled some of those beliefs in her. My brother and I would always speak up and correct her.
A far more awkward situation is with my in-laws. The thing is, they do not consistently do/say things, but a number of unusual actions and off-hand comments pile up on one another until you feel you have a mountain of evidence that, if not racism, there is at least a lot of ignorance and strange behaviour there. Ex-girlfriends of my husband have suspected similar things. Of course, my in-laws are strongly against KKK racism, but comments or uninformed beliefs held about entire races are okay. Avoiding meeting or even talking via webcam to my non-white father for many years is nothing out of the ordinary. Seeing as my in-laws are old and old people often have their views and beliefs deeply entrenched in their minds, we try to keep quiet in order to keep the peace. It is so difficult to explain to white racists why X is racist before you can really call them out on it… Explaining to someone who has believed it all their lives is like flogging a dead horse.
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I’m glad you’ve written about this, Agabond. It’s one of my favorite posts by Victoria.
It’s so true. Lately I’ve made it known to friends and family that I am not a safe space for racist remarks or behavior. The good friends will listen, but many filter themselves out. Even doing things like noting somebody incidental’s whiteness in a story warrants discomfort in the white chamber (ie. “this white woman behind me in line at the grocery store last week…”)
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This happens all the time. I’ve noticed these comments tend to come from older or lower class whites. The type of white person SWPL jokingly refers to as “The wrong kind of white people”
All this means is that the rest of us know enough to keep our racism to ourselves even around other whites, because such comments make us look bad.
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Abagond, thank you for the re-post. I think you summarized the post closely enough to its original intent (which was broad, I admit). I will say that it’s a bit more complex than either being “a racist” or not. I don’t actually call people “racist”. I specifically target their action or their comment. I had hoped that WP would understand the reality that those comments are racist – not just generalizations or stereotypes. People are seeing you as racist. No matter how you slice it up. If you truly, in your heart, believe that you’re not racist, then don’t give anyone reason to believe you are. Stop making the comments and have your words match your intentions.
As for whether people believe that they’re cowardly for not speaking up. It’s really how you feel about yourself. If you can honestly walk away without that sinking feeling in your chest, then there you go. You genuinely feel you have no responsibility to do anything here. That’s your comfort level as a WP. You have the privilege to choose to not to take it personally. If you were a POC it would be a different story. This would be a comment you couldn’t help but take personally, and you’d have to stand up for yourself.
Yes, WP can get violent, as Phil mentioned. I’ve been on the receiving end of both verbal and physical attacks over my comments about racism. Again, it’s your privilege to choose whether it’s worth it to you. I would feel much worse about myself if I didn’t say or do something. And honestly, most people aren’t going to hit us for saying something. They’re going to call us names, scream in our faces, and storm off. I remember to keep myself within the confines of the law so that I can press charges should I be assaulted. I remember to use my “inside voice” when I’m dealing with someone who can fire me, document the argument, and whatever happens after that. Let them lose control. But be realistic. The chances of this scenario are so slim.
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PS – I say “you have the privilege to choose” acrimoniously.
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Also, Victoria I love your simple “I disagree with that statement” response. I think that’s a great way to break the white chamber while minimizing defensive reactions. Nobody can rationally suggest you don’t have a right to express disagreement.
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I believe the ‘White Chamber’ exists because whites or anglo Europeans/non-blacks really accept and believe that the African is inferior in some form or fashion. The only difference is the degree, ie. on a scale of 1 to 10. And, based on a number of variables, personality types, are willing, or are ‘honest’ enough to express this in ‘mixed’ company.
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Excellent post, Victoria!
Sometimes even white strangers will presume upon a shared skin colour and make a racist comment.
I think this part is particularly telling. People assume this all the time, all the time. It is true not just for race, but other collective identities people assume they share with you (ethnicity, nationality, sexual preference, etc.) I’ve seen this happening all the time.
As for reactions, most of the time I argue. But sometimes I don’t. It might have something to do with the fact “I’m not on the receiving end”, but I often don’t argue when I am on the receiving end, so I don’t know. I don’t fear ostracism (I am somewhat ostracized in my community), but I do fear physical consequences. Still, I don’t think it’s why I sometimes don’t argue. I’ve noticed I argue more with the people who are close to me (friends, family) and ignore people I don’t know. I just don’t associate with them.
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It all starts from one self. It takes time and constant checkin. I can not stop somebody be a racist but I can change the way I think. That is what I have practised for almost all my life. As a white it is very easy to forget this “White Chamber”. You are in it from the day you were born so it takes some thinkin to even see it.
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I have shut people out of my life for making racist comments, and I have had people distance themselves from me for calling them out on their racism. I have family members that I’m not on speaking terms with, for the very same reasons. All of the aforementioned people just happen to be white.
With my black friends and family members, I call them out for using the n-word or any other race-based self-hating and/or self-deprecating terms. Interesting to note, the friends and family members who share a similar skin tone to mine are far less likely to get angry or defensive when I gently chide them for using offensive terms, than the people who don’t. It’s always amazed me that when a certain wrong is pointed out to most people, they feel shame over it – not so when that wrong is racism, though! Fascinating, no?
:alien:
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I find myself uncomfortable with this post because, as a black person, I TOTALLY do this (the black chamber?) and feel no shame. I guess the correct thing to say is that I *shouldn’t* do this – that I should stope engaging in prejudicial talk about people of other races.
But I don’t want to.
And because I’m black, I can keep on with this, for teh most part, without opprobrium from hardly anyone.
That makes me and all who co-sign that kind of behavior in black folks hypocrites.
I don’t want to be a hypocrite, but there it is.
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Hello Abagond,
I recently subscribed to your blog. I can’t remember how I came across it, however, so far I love it. This is a very complex topic you’ve referenced in this post. As commenter Mira pointed out, it is not just race, people express negative stereotypes about a range of topics when they are in comfortable company. However, as it specifically applies to race, I know for a fact that it is not exclusive to “WP”…”BP” do it too (well people in general). I know this for a fact because I am a black man (surprise! 8-]). The main difference (in my humble opinion) is that rarely do BP need to be in comfortable company to share negative stereotypes, nor are the compelled to do so quietly.
The reason WP have to be coy about their true opinion is because it is almost always laced with hypocrisy. They fear the past, so they take great displeasure in hearing the truth of their history and how it relates to their current status in society. BP have no such disposition, we are more than happy to remind WP of how the messed us (& most of the world) up with their euro-centric thinking (no worries WP, we’ve moved on, we’re just waiting for you to do the same. How you ask…next paragraph! 8-])
WP could free themselves of this burden by simply accepting historical facts about their race and how they’ve affected the rest of the world. Then the healing can happen, the honest discussions about the various races their history and situation in current society can take place, and we can all truly accept each other and most of all ourselves, and discard the fairytale of the stereotypes that plague humanity.
One of my best friends (father of my godson)…who happens to be a WP asked me once “how would you feel about me using the N word?” (he asked because I am a black man from Brooklyn, & we use it liberally regardless of who’s around…except my mom), I responded, “how do you feel saying it?” And that my friends is what it boils down to.
Racism is an inferiority complex, people will only feel comfortable revealing their inferiority with those who they feel share the same complex. And when WP who are secure in themselves and their history rebuff this complex other WP lash out accordingly with ignorance and violence (nothing new…negative stereotype 8-]). This will not change in our lifetime, although it is improving, if only slightly.
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This post seems to imply that there are no meaningful degrees of bias, and leaves no room for humor.
Let’s examine the corresponding “black chamber”. Are black folks guilty of being closet racists for not berating friends and family who joke about white people dancing or speech patterns? Some comedians base careers on such jokes.
Here again a symmetry emerges between racialists and anti-racialists. Both appear to be lamentably humorless on the subject.
I give you the inimitable Eddie Murphy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiyVZjy_mcI
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@ randy
I like Chris Rock’s take.
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/992249/
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Royal Jonsun
As commenter Mira pointed out, it is not just race, people express negative stereotypes about a range of topics when they are in comfortable company.
Yes, the “chamber” thing tends to be pretty universal. However, it’s impossible to say “blacks do it, too!”, because it’s not the same thing. It’s like with being racist. Blacks can be racist and some of them are; but blacks as a group are not the same as whites as a group.
Similarly, “black chamber” (if exists) can’t be the same as the white chamber. If nothing else, it doesn’t exist because of the same reasons. I don’t know about the black chamber, but white chamber exists for whites to feel completely comfortable the way they can’t be around people who are not white.
Now, what is about non-whites that makes them uncomfortable? In this case, they are a reminder of white people’s racist attitudes. Whites who say stuff like “I have a black friend, but blacks are lazy” KNOW they are racist. But they know they are not “allowed” to say stuff like that in mixed company, not because they would hurt people, but because they are risking to be called racist- and that is one of the worst things you can say to whites. They feel comfortable in the white chamber because they can say whatever they want and still feel good about themselves. There is usually nobody to point at racism in their words.
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Mira,
“Blacks can be racist and some of them are; but blacks as a group are not the same as whites as a group.”
What difference does this make, though? We’re talking about actions between individuals, or small groups of two to four people, usually, not a body politic, or racial voting bloc.
Again, this sets up a weird thing where one group (black folks) are *in theory* (this is a critical point, because we’re talking about abstract stuff here, not so much the way thinsg actually turn out) allowed to be fully human, warts adn all, but white people have to be more stand-up and do better.
That’s intellectually immature, to me.
The intellectually mature thing would be for us to discourage *everyone* from engaging in this kind of behavior..
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Scipio Africanus,
You are right. There is always a difference between the individual and the collective level. I usually make pretty clear what I’m talking about, but I failed to do this time.
When it comes to racism, I was talking about the “higher” (collective, political) level. But with black vs white chamber, you are right, it’s more about the individuals.
However, these actions have a lot to do with racism, and there is no way it’s the same for whites and blacks. (Or any other dominant vs weak group). When members of a dominant group enter the chamber, so to speak, it’s for the same reasons those of the other groups do.
Most of the people like to be with those of the same group, and yes, many people prefer their own group and think it’s better than the others. But I don’t think blacks in the black room are motivated by the same stuff as the whites.
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Randy, are you implying that WP should be allowed to share these white solidarity-building comments with one another unchecked because sometimes it might be funny? I don’t have a hard time being funny – ever. When it comes to racism, I don’t find it funny.
Furthermore, I think it’s up to BP to determine individually whether a Black Chamber is ok or not. I don’t think there’s going to be one “right” answer. I think what makes it wrong for WP is the age-old answer – we’re the dominant race. Hypocrisy, as Royal Jonsun has mentioned, plays a part in that dominance. In order to maintain that, we have to be everything we collectively claim to be (or our people have been claiming we are for centuries). Which is pretty strange for people who claim to be a group of individuals with no culture, isn’t it?
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This happened with my old job. A white woman was talking to this other white woman, who’s a teacher, about a black female teacher harshly. The white woman didn’t know that the black teacher heard her until, she told her off.
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Mira,
At no point in my post did I make mention of our elude to a black chamber (there isn’t one, because blacks have no need our desire to hide how they feel). You may want to reread it in it’s entirety.
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Royal,
I think black folks frequently do “hide” our true feelings about stuff when we’re in mixed company. That’s what I was saying earlier, alot of us do exactly what this post is describing.
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Scipio Africanus,
If you are referring to a professional environment, then of course you must be professional. However, if you are among “friends” then wht would you hide…unless you’re insecure in yourself. Fortunately, I have a very diverse set of friends, and there is nothing regarding my opinions on society that I would not share with any of them. That is why they are my friends, we can agree to disagree, after constructive debate. Take a look at your self brother, if you know your history, you have nothing to be ashamed of.
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If there is a ‘Black Chamber’, it is one that is ‘performed’ in two ways, sometimes in fleeting commentary, and in public view, ie. ‘going along, to get along’. I have worked at jobs where the racism was palpable, and subtle, but all of the blk folk worked, interacted as if nothing was wrong, but communicated primarily through nonverbal signals. Then, maybe in the lunch-room, or in the parking lot, you might say, “did you hear/see/get that? But not much else. Why? you would never know what individual (blk) would turn on you for ‘brownie points’.
An African woman (professor) who I perceived as a brown-noser, and who by all appearances, appeared to be in a ‘favored’ position’ as opposed to mine on the campus, once surprised me, while, when we were walking into the faculty lounge, once, quickly commented,
“‘we’, have to be careful with the students, ‘we’
cannot do the same as the white instructors, ‘we’
have to kiss the ‘behinds’ of the white students,
while the white/non black professors do not”.
It caught me off guard, as, she had never been so candid before. Remembering to be cautious of her motive in this, I responded by merely nodding my head in agreement. I would call that a ‘Black Chamber’ moment, but one borne out of the need for survival. By contrast, ‘White Chamber’ moments appear to be utilized as ‘membership checking’.
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I think White chamber is there because of the centuries of history behind it. For a white it seems invisible because he/she is inside looking out and has always been inside. That is why the more subtle forms of racism go unnoticed. Example: “Oh, those terrible KKK guys are burning those terrible crosses over there, we must be nice and very understanding to those blacks now so they do not be affraid of us all”.
I don’t know the word but maybe patronising? You know, that attitude? I’ve met zillions of do-good whites who don’t see themselves as rasicts but they look blacks down and think that blacks can not survive without them. They think that they know what is best for “those blacks” whom tehy talk about like handicapped children or something. Very annoying. I once almost got into a fight when I said to bunch of these upper class creeps in a evening gala that I prefer cross burining red necks any day rather than you guys 😀
I think that Black chamber is a reaction to this. Black racism is a mirror phenomena, it has developed as a reaction to the institutionalized and other white racism trough decades. Sometimes the black suprematists even employ the same language and logic of their white counterparts, from A to Z.
Anyway, racist is racist in my book. This is what I think about this.
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Victoria said: “Randy, are you implying that WP should be allowed to share these white solidarity-building comments with one another unchecked because sometimes it might be funny?”
I’m saying that it’s common and normal for people of all ethnicities everywhere in the world to poke fun at stereotyped examples of their own and other ethnicities. Some folks are quite hilarious and even get paid handsomely to do it.
To automatically equate any such commentary with serious and genuine forms of bias and discrimination seems to be an unfortunate non-use of common sense and judgment.
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This post seems to imply that there are no meaningful degrees of bias, and leaves no room for humor.
On the contrary, I find most of your posts to be quite humorous, and doubly so as they are not intentionally so. Thanks! After moving, suffering form broken arse syndromes, sore bones, limbs etc, I could use a good chuckle.
Are black folks guilty of being closet racists for not berating friends and family who joke about white people dancing or speech patterns?
How do you know this? I’ve never heard black people joke about white people’s dancing and speech patterns, but I don’t know every black person. I’m going to be honest here, I am a misanthrope so everyone is fair game when in comes to jokes! Berate away it provides fodder for jokes! Plus I can create new profanities!
Some folks are quite hilarious and even get paid handsomely to do it.
Are you getting paid? Stay in the white chamber!
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“but I don’t know every black person”
what!?!?! inconceivable!
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what!?!?! inconceivable!
Inconceivable and unfortunate! If I did, I would have asked most of them to come over and help me move! As it was, most of the people didn’t show up who promised to. I am suffering the consequences of their disloyalty! Oh yeah, some were black who didn’t show up. One phoned, asked if I was moving and said “talk to you later”. Right now my best friend is ben-gay cream and Epsom salts and lonesome memory!!
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@ Herneith
That sucks. I always help people move. It’s like money in the bank. If you help someone move you can always call in that favor.
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Yay! Go Auburn! Cam Newton was great.
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“Take a look at your self brother”
Lol
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” I’ve never heard black people joke about white people’s dancing and speech patterns, ”
…
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@herneith: 😀
See you never heard them jokin about white folks dancing coz we gotta the moves! I’ll prive it to you in a minute.
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Clear the dance floor black dudes and gals coz eher we go! The whites disco moves on planet 4 yah by the finns! And this guy is a real dance instructor too!!
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” I’ve never heard black people joke about white people’s dancing and speech patterns, ”
I haven’t. There are other modes of behaviour that is more worthy of jokes when it comes to white folk. Besides, being Canadian, and with the accent, is joke worthy in and of itself, eh? If you ever heard a Newfoundlander speak, you would get the idea.
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That language they are speaking is suspiciously close to Martian!
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Herneith I assume your talking about in person? The open mocking of WP’s speech and lack of rhythm is very common in entertainment at least.
However I’ve noticed an interesting trend. White people are way better dancers in general now than we were 20 years ago.
I attribute that to the hip-hop & R&B takeover of popular music. White people are getting blacker by the minute culturally speaking. In fact when it comes to teenagers, fashion-wise there aren’t as many differences as there used to be even in the 90’s when I was in high school.
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I think it is extremely unwise to draw conclusions of “what black people are like” from comedians – or rappers or BET.
First, because the 40 million blacks in America represent the full breadth of humanity. There are way more than the dozen or so kinds covered by the stereotypes. Blacks are individuals every bit as much as white people are. Some of them even like country music or Dickens!
Second, most black rappers and comedians that white people know depend more on white people than black people for their success. Some of them take advantage of the stereotypes they know white people have.
Third, it is just this sort of thinking that got Don Imus and Dr Laura into trouble.
Please note: Chris Rock does not have a degree in anthropology. BET is not some kind of plate-glass window and never was, not even back when it was still black-owned.
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“I think it is extremely unwise to draw conclusions of “what black people are like” from comedians – or rappers or BET. ”
Who was saying that?
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” I’ve never heard black people joke about white people’s dancing and speech patterns, ”
Yes I am pertty sure it started as joke by Whites about other Whites:
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@abagond: I actually met a black guy in NYC back in the 80’s who was crazy bout C&W music. And I mean he was a fan. Cowboy boots, jeans and the whole gear. He just liked the thing. Never said anything about it, just was like that. Otherways regular newyorker I guess.
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Some of them even like country music or Dickens!
No way! Not Dickens!!!!
(Seriously… What’s so strange about blacks liking Dickens? )
Look, I don’t know many non-white people. I don’t know ANY non-white people in real life, only online. And most of the white people I know are not US/Anglo whites.
Still… I must say I haven’t noticed much of the said stereotypes (hip hop, “ghetto”, or whatever you like). On the contrary, I’ve met many non-white people online who share the same interests as I do, and I guess some of these interests are considered “white”. No Dickens fans, but I’ve met so many blacks who are into rock music (some of them play rock and are in indie bands), that it was – and still is – difficult for me to understand why rock is seen as a white music.
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Sam:
I actually met a black guy in NYC back in the 80′s who was crazy bout C&W music. And I mean he was a fan. Cowboy boots, jeans and the whole gear.
I can give a better example Charlie Pride:
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“Some of them even like country music or Dickens!”
“No way! Not Dickens!!!!
(Seriously… What’s so strange about blacks liking Dickens? )”
Abagond probably meant “Dickies” – but that can happen when you’re typing too fast…
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@Uncle: 😀
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Abagond said:
“I think it is extremely unwise to draw conclusions of “what black people are like” from comedians – or rappers or BET.”
Excellent statement. For that matter, it’s unwise to draw conclusions of what ANY PERSON is like, from nearly ANY form of media! Unless its an unbiased, factual documentary (and really, is anything truly unbiased?), one should pretty much take everything shown on TV with a grain of salt – and that includes news programs, particularly the 24-hour ‘infotainment’ stations.
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sepultura13,
I disagree about documentaries. They are interpretations like any other, and do not represent the “actual” truth; only someone’s view of it. Their danger lies in the fact people take them to be “the” truth… Wrong.
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sam
I like the way grandpa pumps it in that video 🙂
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Herneith I assume your talking about in person? The open mocking of WP’s speech and lack of rhythm is very common in entertainment at least.
No, I am not talking about in person. I don’t watch much television and have not heard this in person. I have a distinct Canadian accent. If I was to ‘mock’ the so called white accent, I would be mocking my own. Now I don’t have anything against self mockery, but what’s the use if almost everyone talks like you do.
As for rhythm, well, in that regards I am an anomaly unless you consider bobbing your head up and down to a beat having rhythm. Now that is something I can make a mockery of and have. It is an ongoing joke as to my lack of rhythm, however, I am not as bad as the people in that video. Ironically I am a veritable dancing machine, so what if I look comical when dancing, it’s fun and good exercise. The comedy derived from my dancing is an added bonus. So why mock people who are basically considered to be in the same boat as you? Why mock anyone for something they have no control over such as spastic body movements considered to be dancing or the way they talk. I have heard people making fun of foreign accents however. The East Indian accent seems to be a favourite with some of these clowns, the so-called Jamaican accent, and foreign accents in general. I don’t go in for that. Like I said most have no control over where they are from or their accents.
I have heard people within a ethnic/racialized group, joke about the different accents, but that is akin to doing the ‘dozens’ on each other. I have heard children of immigrants slip into patois or their parents language when talking to each other, they may us certain phrases for instance. I have heard many imitate American slang terms, an offshoot of American media I suppose. I have not heard them mocking the so-called white accent as most possess it themselves. I am not saying they don’t, I have never heard it. Oh yeah, I have been mocked by my American cousin about my ‘accent’. “But dear”, I said to him, it is you who has an accent not I.
Not all black people adhere to the same modes of behaviour, obviously. What is detrimental to many, is the fact that they may not be able to be ‘themselves’ due to how society has stereotyped them and put them into boxes. So If you like/love C&W(I loathe most of it), hard rock(not a huge fan), Opera(which I adore!), classical(I love), they will look at you funny! Funnily enough, I also love the blues, Howlin Wolf, Robert Johnson, Elmore James(my favourite), they also look at you askance as it is mostly whites who listen to this music nowadays, or so the media would have you think. Anything like ragtime, old time Jazz, etc, is seen as something mostly whites listen to(I beg to differ again). I have always found this to bizarre. I also like Kelif Seita, Congolese music, R&B etc etc. You can’t pin me down! Anywho, I learned at an early age to disregard stereotypes of how people perceive me and how I should behave based on perceived racialization. They, and any of their ilk can go pi&& up a rope!
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I find this post and others like it so frustrating to me when I see the out in the open anti white racism so prevelent even on this blog.
Like Joanna said she is basicly going to disown her white family, but she would probably laugh her but off at a chris rock comedy show with all the out in the open anti white stuff out there. and his stuff isn’t even that bad.
Why must we constantly rehash what was mostly done in the past while ignoring what is going on right it front of us as we speak against white people.
I’m all for equality but if were not careful this unchecked anti white racism will eventually cause a serious backlash.
Then all the black activists like abagond will be justified “see look at all these white bigots”
I hear it all the time out in the open. “white boy stupid man. look at him” and god knows what is said behind closed doors. I’ll bet if you went to an all black barber shop the white race in general gets destroyed.
But because of family members like Joanna we can’t say or do anything about it. we can never fight back. this is eventually going to cause a frustrating powder keg explosion………….you watch. and you are fueling the fire abagond.
You said yourelf when you and your wife and mother in law were sitting around the table talking about how white people had more bad apples then anyone………..and thats not a terrible thing to say? arent you the pot calling the kettle………… oh I better not finish that thats racist right.
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@dave
lol .. i guess you’re one of those “I’m-all-for-equality-but…” guy.
backlash powder keg frustrating white race explosion get destroyed ..
aye aye , we got all the key words all right. Thanks for the fair warning.
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@dave – the difference is dominance. Whites are dominant here in the States, and we lose nothing if a very large population of people (including other whites) believes every bad stereotype about WP. However, if all of us WP get together and perpetuate stereotypes about non-whites, it makes it to headline news, it is infused in advertising, it lands in every mainstream movie involving a POC. We control how much their comments bother us, where they have no control over the damage we can do when we all BELIEVE negative stereotypes about people. We end up with “hurt feelings” but Blacks end up having a hard time getting a loan at a bank, Mexicans end up facing publicly shouted slurs about their status here – and you get the point. We don’t face any damaging consequences.
This thread seriously went way off the point, which is fine, but I won’t be returning to it to make any more comments after this one regarding the actual post. Thanks for reading all!
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@dave
Settle down buddy.
If somebody calls you a stupid white boy and it bothers you that much punch the guy in the face. No reason to act like it’s every black person against you and there’s a big race war coming. You sound like a kid who’s scared to fight man 2 man so he goes and shoots up his office or school or something.
As for black comedians. I don’t see how you could get all riled about the stuff they say. Learn to take a joke.
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Joanna
I so understand this. I am not one to keep quiet about racist comments from others, and recently I had to stop associating with my family, because my father has a wife and step kids who think nothing of making bigoted comments, as long as they don’t use so called “hate speech”. They do not consider the little negative comments they make about other races to be racism
Yeah, and maybe quite a lot of their observations are by and large accurate.
Maybe the truth is “racist”. There are plenty of racial differences on average for both cultural and genetic reasons. However the distribution of most traits is along overlapping bell curves between the two populations. If you don’t understand that basic concept of statistics, google it up.
You don’t realize that the great majority of blacks have plenty of disparaging views of whites — and Asians??? You don’t realize they generally feel far more entitled to express those openly?
Maybe what you should do is re-evaluate some of the very thorough PC indoctrination you’ve received, and indoctrination is exactly what it is, rather than turning your back on your family.
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doug and Asians???
Nope certainly no this one.
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Haha… yeah..
“MAYBE the bigoted comments are all true”
A bigoted comment is one that is:
–adjective
utterly intolerant of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one’s own.
It’s not about how many people who you can find who you think might match your comments, its about being intolerant of others who differ from you.
You don’t realize that the great majority of blacks have plenty of disparaging views of whites
If that is true, then I wonder how that could have come about?
“Maybe what you should do is re-evaluate some of the very thorough PC indoctrination you’ve received, and indoctrination is exactly what it is, rather than turning your back on your family.”
Maybe you should try making your judgements based on right or wrong actions, rather than whether or not a person is related to you?
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@Doug1:
Oh, no you didn’t just go there??
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Maybe what you should do is re-evaluate some of the very thorough PC indoctrination you’ve received, and indoctrination is exactly what it is, rather than turning your back on your family.
What PC indoctrination? I still don’t understand what PC means and in what context. Is that a ploy to shut people up? Or is t a ploy to deter people from discussing things which may be diametrically opposed to what you think? What, you can’t call people racist names openly and freely? what are you on about, and please don’t say; “Well they do it too”!, argument.
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@herneith; doesn’t PC mean personal computer? I’m not sure, I am a white man from the snowy North.
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I think each race, in the US at least, has their own respective chambers and that derogatory comments about other races are said in these chambers. In my opinion, it doesn’t matter what race you are. Racist comments are racist comments. You are attributing stereotypical characteristics to a whole group of people and should be called out on it. Racism won’t go away until we start seeing each other as individuals.
But I think this whole chamber business goes beyond race and extends to class, nationality, and even gender. On a global level, I think each country probably has their own chamber as well and many derogatory comments about Americans are said.
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I have a question and its related to something I saw on Talking Points Memo regarding comments there about the statement the governor of Maine about the NAACP. One of the comments tried to discredit the NAACP by trying to associate them with Min. Louis Farrakhan and all the things non-black people perceive in terms of Farrakhan’s racist/anti-semitic statements.
To be clear, the commenter felt the Tea Party was being wrongfully smeared as racist by the NAACP. My question, however, has to do with whether there is a similar “wall” among Black people with regard to people like Farrakhan.
I ask that not because I think Farrakhan or the average, race/racist joke telling uncle Joe (black) are highly regarded among Black people. I ask because I can’t help but see Min. Farrakhan, let alone Rev. Jeremiah Wright, differently than it seems most White people do even if there are some things I find problematic and/or racist in the things he/they have said.
Also, I’d imagine that the “friend who happens to be racist (sometimes)” phenomenon lends to the “no cross-burning” = “not racist” mentality. I’m sure there are any number of White people who have very loving parents/friends who hold racist views and would tend (or choose, even wishfully) to view the racism/racist views as hardly the defining part of the whole person they see.
I wondering (1) does something similar happen among Black people when someone Black like Farrakhan/Wright is called “racist” (2) how come that same kind of “whole person” analysis/allowance doesn’t see to be afforded to Black/non-white people.
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Obviously, I’m late on all this but I just wanted to comment on Victoria’s “dominance is the difference” theory. While I agree with her argument about the difference in social and material consequences between Whites having racist views about non-whites vs. non-whites having racist views against Whites, there is still the matter of Blacks/non-whites arriving at their supposed “anti-white” views from their collective historical or current experiences.
I think Mira tried to speak to that difference up-thread and I believe that to be a significant difference in some, most and perhaps all/almost-all the “racist” views Blacks/non-whites have re: whites.
It’s like the age old school fight scenario. The kid that throws a punch after s/he was hit first can’t ultimately be judge as committing the same exact offense as the one who punched first.
Also, the very character of the racist views it seems most White with racist views have are those that they arrive at without having any actual experience with non-white people or, if they do know/live/work with non-whites, their views tend to be rather selective either because the only non-white people they know evoke images of the society-programmed stereotypes or because they emphasize negative experiences they’ve had with non-whites far above the positive ones and in a completely different manner than they judge their own in-group positive/negative experiences.
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Hey, Abagond, there’s an article that speaks to this very thing (or something similar too it). Its called:
When Whites Flock Together: The Social Psychology of White Habitus by Eduardo Bonilla-Silva
It’s quite the interesting read.
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