Asian double eyelid surgery (1896), also called Asian blepharoplasty, eyelid surgery or just “the surgery”, adds a fold or crease to the upper eyelid. Most whites and blacks are born with this fold but only about half of East Asians are. By adding the fold it makes the eyes look bigger, rounder and more like the eyes of a white person.
It started in Japan in 1896, hit Korea in the 1950s and is now common in China too. You can also get it done in America.
It is one of the most common kinds of plastic surgery among East Asian and Asian American women. Most actresses and singers in East Asia have it done. Even Jackie Chan had it done (pictured above).
Here is a before and after picture of Ayumi Hamasaki, one of the best-selling singers in Japan:
Both Chan and Hamasaki look whiter though they are still unmistakably East Asian. Notice that Hamasaki has made herself look whiter in other ways too.
There are different ways to do the surgery, each with its own advantages and disadvantages. The most common is the incision method: the doctor makes a cut in the eyelid, removes some of the skin, fat and muscle and then sews it back together with very fine threads to create the fold. It takes about a half hour for each eye. Four or five days later he takes out the threads. Your eyelids look terrible at first but in a few weeks they have mostly recovered.
In South Korea it costs about $1200; in America it is more like $3000.
You can also do it yourself with tape or glue. They sell kits for that. But the effect does not last.
Just like with other sorts of plastic surgery, women do it to make themselves better looking.
But “better looking” according to who? Is it a case of internalized racism, of hating how your own race looks and trying look more like whites?
Large eyes as a sign of female beauty is hardly a Western or white thing. It might even be a human universal. In any case, the surgery is way more common in East Asia – not in America where white ideas of beauty and internalized racism are way stronger.
On the other hand, the spread of eyelid surgery seems to go hand in hand with Westernization. East Asians, after all, are subjected to white ideas of beauty through the world fashion industry – which is based in Europe and therefore pushes a white beauty. And in fact East Asian ideas of female beauty do seem to have been noticeably whitened.
But then why is it less common among Asian Americans? Probably for the same reason why blacks at mixed-race high schools are more opposed to “acting white” than they are at black high schools: because the presence of whites makes internalized racism seem like more of a serious threat.
Thanks to commenter leigh204 for her help with this post.
See also:
Thank you. I found this post very interesting and somewhat sad. As its sad when plastic surgery is used to take away a person’s natural beauty for perceived ” right look”…
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Cheers Leigh 204 for your input.
One of the ‘advantages’ of living in the West, is that it places POC vis-a-vis Whites, in a ‘unique’ position, than those who live in the ‘Far East (East Asia) could ever understand.
If I had to surmise, I think this may be one of the contributing factors as to the why:
“In any case, the surgery is way more common in East Asia – not in America
When you add the issue of skin lightening to this topic. It shows you to what extent where we are living in a ‘White world’.
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And one could also discuss whether the influence of teh booming plastic surgery industry in places like S. Korea, is also a part of this carry over from the West, what some mighht designate as a form of ‘cultural imperialism’??
http://www.time.com/time/asia/covers/1101020805/story2.html
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almond eyes are beautiful
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Oh my God, Ayumi Hamasaki was sooo much better looking before surgery. And she’s not even wearing much makeup in that picture.
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It’s good to have someone like leigh204 here because diversity is important. Learn something everyday and I don’t know about eyes but leigh204 those lips. wow:)
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What? Didn’t you know that Leigh204 had lipsoplasty done several years ago?
It’s really all the fad.
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Thanks for the shoutout, abagond! 😀
This post strongly resonates with me because I was very tempted in my younger years to have this type of surgery. I mentioned a couple of times on here how much I desired having eyelid surgery due to my Asian eyes being mocked continuously.
There’s just a lot I want to say about this subject so I’ll have to comment accordingly. 🙂
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@Redman1000:
Oh, hehe. Thanks! *blushes* People have mentioned my lips are my best asset. Oddly enough, my lips were made fun of as well for being quite full for an Asian woman, but not as much as my eyes.
@King:
lol! Doh! You’ve got me all figured out, King. 😉
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Just one more thing to wrinkle.
But then again, what’s a little nip n tuck.
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actually i believe the intent behind these surgeries is actually look Eurasian rather than European but then again the idea is to look less Asian. i really recommend that anyone interested in the double eyelid surgery should read this post which contains comments from someone who is actually writing a thesis on cosmetic surgery in South Korea. after talking with a friend from Malaysia (who was being pressured into doing the eyelid surgery because of her small eyes) and reading about this issue i’ve come to realise that it is more than about internalized racism or trying to look white. again i strongly suggest reading the post i linked to above!
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If you go to youtube you can see so many tutorials on how to apply eyelid or eyeglue.
Here’s a very popular eyelid tape.
Here’s a young AW who makes her own eyelid tape using plain old tape to achieve an eye opening effect. She looked fine before.
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“lol! Doh! You’ve got me all figured out, King.”
So you admit it! Saucy minx!
But I don’t understand the temporary taping method. Does this mean that you have to go through this ritual every day? It doesn’t seem worth it. And what happens when your tape comes off after a few hours?
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Oops, I meant eyelid tape and eyelid glue.
Here’s another method used. It’s eyelid glue (it looks very similar to fake eyelash glue)
Sidenote: Some of you may be squeamish during the clip so be aware.
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@King:
Yes. The Asian women who do this kind of thing use it as part of their beauty regimen.
If you do it correctly the first time around, the tape should stay until the end of the day. If not, then you’ll have to redo it.
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I question whether Jackie Chan has eyelid surgery. I don’t see those photos as being definitive.
As for changing ones appearance to look more like another ethnicity, it’s not exclusive to People of Color. :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanning_bed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lip_enhancement
http://www.locateadoc.com/pictures/cosmetic-surgery/buttocks-augmentation-butt-implants.html
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Some AW also swear that using eyelid tape every day eventually creates a crease on their eyes.
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Some AW also swear that using eyelid tape every day eventually creates a crease on their eyes.
So, kind of a rent-to-own epicanthic fold?
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^ I suppose you can call it that, King.
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I don’t get why they do it. They look perfectly fine with their natural eyes. I see people as more beautiful if they don’t do any cosmetic surgery, and if they don’t often wear make up. If I know someone did, or people who always wear lots of make up.. the “beauty” is just fake so I don’t believe it
And Abagond, what do you mean by “blacks at mixed-race high schools are more opposed to “acting white” than they are at black high schools: because the presence of whites makes internalized racism seem like a more serious threat.”
I go to a mixed race high school but I don’t understand what you mean by that. I don’t think there’s such thing as “acting white” cause everybody is different. it sounds cliche but when you really think about it, its true
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There are also Asians who get eyelid surgery for medical reasons. One case being upper lid entropion. That’s when the skin overhang from the eyelids (think of awnings) force the lashes to curve into the eye causing discomfort.
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Double lids and epicanthic eye folds are NOT one and the same. The epicanthus is a piece of flesh that covers, either partially or fully, the inner corners of the eyes. Blacks and whites, for the most part, have double lids, but most DO NOT have epicanthic folds.
I have “double-lids” and, thanks to my Native American ancestors, I also have epicanthic eye folds, My eyes are wide but somewhat slanted, and this at least partially explains why strangers sometimes mistake me for Polynesian or East Asian.
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leigh,
Your mother did the right thing. There’s no point in doing this surgery. With or without surgery, you’re Asian, and there’s nothing wrong, or ugly, or strange or “different” about it. I often wonder whether all those people who did the surgery are happy- I mean, they are still visibly Asian, and whites can still discriminate against them. I’m not saying that without discrimination and looking Asian it would be ok to do the surgery, because there’s nothing wrong in being Asian; but I wonder what’s the point.
I don’t get the eyelid surgery, just like I don’t get most of the plastic surgery anyway. It’s dehumanizing in so many ways.
Also, it is sad to see it became a trend within Asians too, not just to appeal to whites. (Like I said, I bet many whites can’t really tell the difference, especially given the fact some whites have epicanthic folds (I know it’s not the same, but I think whites don’t really notice the difference). So it is sad to see that some Asians claim to prefer double eyelid eyes, that they are more beautiful, etc. That is westernised sort of thinking.
Nobody should do anything to look “more white”, imo. As if looking more white means being more beautiful or something. There are attractive whites, of course, but there are so many ugly ones, and, like with any other race, most of them are average looking.
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@Uncle Milton:
Jackie Chan admitted he had eyelid surgery in an interview he did with FHM magazine in the November 2000 issue.
Is it true you had an operation in 1976 to widen your eyes?
It is also confirmed he did his eyes here.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000329/bio
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So it looks like he’s ashamed of what he did so he tries to excuse himself…
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I also have to remind people who see this post that there are just as many Asians who don’t have this surgery and that many have the double eyelids naturally.
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Here are more pics of Asians with natural double eyelid. (I posted some of these pics once before.)
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And some Asians get their eyes done because one eyelid is single and the other is double and they want their eyes to be evened out. This actress has single AND double eyelids, but she didn’t have surgery.
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once again abagond you have intrigued me with your in depth blog. Well done!
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It seems very similar to Jewish or Armenians people getting rhinoplasty to “straighten out” their noses (in profile).
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Dee,
“I see people as more beautiful if they don’t do any cosmetic surgery, and if they don’t often wear make up. If I know someone did, or people who always wear lots of make up.. the “beauty” is just fake so I don’t believe it”
So I guess you don’t believe the overwhelming majority of celebrities are beautiful?
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@Mira:
Personally, I had two friends do the surgery. One friend had one single and one double eyelid as I mentioned earlier. The other friend wanted to define her creases more. Both were happy with the results. And they do not regret having the procedure done.
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I disagree with “the spread of eyelid surgery seems to go hand in hand with Westernization”, since, as you mentioned, Asian Americans are less likely to do it. Asian Americans and Asian Canadians are aware of the (Western) negative connotations of double eyelid surgery as “acting white”, and I’m sure we tend to be more opposed to skin whitening products for the same reason.
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You know, I hate the way America has set the tone for what is so called beautiful. I have always thought that Asian women were gorgeous and that their eyes were there BEST feature. I say just forget about way they say is beautiful and focus on your beauty, the way GOD had intended to be. My motto is if you don’t like the way I look, don’t look at me lol.
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I remember having a routine medical checkup when I was a small child (growing up in New York) and having the (white) doctor pitch eyelid surgery to me and my mom. I heard it out and later asked my mom a few questions about it, but I never understood why I would possibly do something like that. I mean, I got the daily racist mockery at school (ching chong, eye-tug, mocking my name, etc), but I couldn’t imagine actually changing my face. I still can’t relate, but hey human beings are complicated.
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Funny thing is, I, and many of my family members on my mother’s side, have the “Asian” epicanthic fold, too (we’re all black – this genetic trait, like most others, probably started somewhere in Africa first.) And I really like the way it looks. I would never in a million years want to get it removed. But I’m not an Asian living in Asia, so naturally it’s not going to strike me the same way it would them for the reasons you mention.
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@ Scipio –
In terms of heritage, the epicanthic fold is found across ethnic groups (as you have already pointed out.) It occurs in significant numbers among Native Americans as well as some populations of the South American lowlands and the Khoisan of South Africa. Also, many groups of Eastern and Southeastern Asian origin. Moreover, it occasionally occurs in some European ethnic groups, including Scandinavians and Poles.
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Charles Bronson (American Actor) would be an example coming from Lithuanian/Polish descent.
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“Color O’ Luv
Charles Bronson (American Actor) would be an example coming from Lithuanian/Polish descent.
http://tecnoculto.com/wp-content/uploads/charles-bronson-2008.jpg”
—
For a long time I was curious about Charles Bronson and the fact that he seemed to be regarded as strictly white/Caucasian, despite the fact that he was quite swarthy and had epicanthic eye folds. I remember watching one of his earlier films and he, as a young man, was even more strikingly Asian-like in appearance than when he got older.
When he died a few years back I look up his background and, from I read, he was part Lithuanian Tatar (Mongol) on his father’s side. Similarly, Renee Zellweger has prominent cheekbones and epicanthic eye fold — I thought she might be part Native American, but she is actually part Sami on her mother’s side.
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Scipio Africanus: “And I really like the way it looks. I would never in a million years want to get it removed.”
From photos I’ve seen, the epicanthus is still intact after the double eyelid is created. If you scroll up to the before and after pics, the woman still has the fold at the inner corners of her eyes; it’s just that in the “after” picture she’s had a makeshift crease added to the lid.
Jackie Chan, though, appears to have had his eye folds removed as part of his surgery.
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Scratch that about Jackie Chan. I just checked some Google images of him and he still has his eye folds.
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The reason it may be more common in Asia than North America has to do with the fact that many westernized Asians have more ‘racial’ pride, likely because here their ‘Asianness’ is something they can’t escape, and it is pointed out to them. It forces them to deal with it and subsequently take more pride in it. Just my theory.
But, this thread brings us full circle to the Anime race issue.
Roughly 50% of models in Asian magazines are white. Billboards in Japan are covered with the faces of people of European ancestry.
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On another note. I never get why Asians would get mad if people depict them with slanted eyes, or pinpoint it as an ‘Asian’ feature. It’s like getting mad because someone draws me with dark skin.
Yeah, I understand the difference between drawing slanted eyes and drawing a diagonal slit, the latter is insulting, but the former is not.
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In terms of heritage, the epicanthic fold is found across ethnic groups (as you have already pointed out.)
This is correct, I believe. It’s relatively common for white children, especially in Eastern Europe (I believe) to have them. I know I had!
There are also non-Asians with more or less pronounced epicanthis folds, like Jeff Bridges or that guy from Backstreet Boys.
But this kind of fold is different than typically Asian because it’s on the outer corner of the eye. Sometimes it’s even called “Nordic fold” (or something like that) in order for it to sound more European (<- my interpretation).
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Yeah, I understand the difference between drawing slanted eyes and drawing a diagonal slit, the latter is insulting, but the former is not.
Perhaps because a) Their eyes are not slanted and b) It’s often used by whites to point of how Asians are different than “regular” people.
But I do agree a bit with you here: “slanted eyes” thing seems to be cultural. It looks like it’s very insulting to say that, let alone to pull corner of your eyes in some countries (like US and Canada), but in other places, some other things are considered more insulting.
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@Mel:
I can’t speak for other Asians, but I can speak for myself. There is an assumption that Asians have the stereotypical Asian “slanted eyes”. I know many Asians who do NOT have, say, actress Lucy Liu’s eyes. In fact, the many Asians I’ve come in contact with have varied eye shapes. Some have the huge bambi type eyes…naturally, mind you. I think that’s why Asians get ticked at their eyes being portrayed that way.
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My brother is married to japanese woman, Her eyes have the double eyelid already. but my youngest nephew (who is now 10 months) doesnt have the same eyelid. he looks more exotic than his brother who looks more african american than anything else and is doing some baby modeling. Is a double eyelid it a dominant or recessive trait?
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Funny — I pointed this out before in that discussion about Japanese animation and the appearances of the characters, and it was ignored and I was called a “racist projecting my own Western Anglo concepts on race onto a group of people who have their own separate racist culture” — something to that effect. I can’t think of a group of people that are more affected by internalized racism and the concept of whiteness than people of East Asian descent.
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I see it like this: Ethnic groups who get plastic surgery to appear more caucasion in appearance have a tendency to look less striking. They may still be attractive but their beauty doesn’t stand out to me as much. The original unique features of each ethnic group are what make them striking in appearance such as:
Asians–eyes make them stand out
Blacks–dark skin, thick lips, kinky hair make blacks stand out
It’s odd because the features that make each ethnic group stand out are the features many in that group want to change.
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I read in a interview that Korean actor/singer Bi Rain was told he was ugly when starting out and he should have the eyelid surgery but he refused it. GO Rain!
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Mira,
“So it looks like he’s ashamed of what he did so he tries to excuse himself…”
I’m not in Jackie Chan’s head and I haven’t seen Drunken Master II but considering how many times he’s been seriously injured (ex. Getting stabbed with a sword in I think the first Drunken Master, cracking open his skull while filming Armor of God (Operation Condor over seas)) it would not surprise me that he got his eye ripped open.
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I believe he didn’t lie about the injury. Still, I don’t like the way he felt the need to excuse himself as if he knew eyelid surgery is a bad thing to do.
But you’re right, we’re not him and we don’t know much about his motives. Nothing against the guy, he’s ok. All I’m saying is that his words seem like he was ashamed. There’s nothing to be ashamed of, especially if he really had n injury.
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@ Natasha W
When you see a lot of them with no make up on they look average, and even below average. In terms of their faces, not bodies. But someone getting liposuction or w/e just reads to me as laziness. And fake boobs are tacky. It’s mostly a woman thing though, so it just matters how the guy feels about it. But thats just how I’d judge other women.
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Saying almond eyes are fine/beautiful is alittle patronizing, as if ppl are doing this for the FUN of it in a vacuum where NOTHING can hurt.
I want to acknowledge that, yeah, its a real crap shoot out there for anyone who doesnt “fit”. There really is no “win”, you either learn to be satisfied or you find some way to “change” ( or maybe something else creative).
I once spent time contemplating how to hide a lip reduction , nose job, lasik eye surgery and braces. The financial discount given to having the first two done at once was enticing.
I eventually decided against it, but only because I found a way to use makeup to give me the looks I want and realizing how I am manipulated by advertising.But it took a LONG time…and many don’t make it.
Bigger Rounder & Brighter Eyes
When the Pursuit of Beauty Calls for a Do-Over
http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/plastic-surgery-redo/story?id=9746366
Thanks for the article !!
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It’s odd because the features that make each ethnic group stand out are the features many in that group want to change.
And what about whites? What makes whites stand out?
I’m asking because we’re all often made to see whiteness as neutral and default so those others are the ones with “special features” such as almond eyes or kinky hair.
But I must admit I do see these features as beautiful.
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Mira,
“And what about whites? What makes whites stand out?”
Pale skin. 🙂
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They have to compete with East Asians on that one.
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Just being facetious.
I would say blonde hair, but not all whites have it.
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I’d say long noses is the best bet here. One could say blonde hair or blue eyes, but there are so many whites with dark hair and dark eyes. But you can’t do wrong with noses!
PS-That was more of a rhetorical question (about whites I mean).
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My mother has a long nose and she isn’t white. Also, Native Americans tend to have long noses.
I know it was a rhetorical question, but it was interesting anyway. To be honest, I’m having a hard time answering it.
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Mira,
I vote for the nose bump! I’ve only seen that on White people (though not all White people have it). 🙂
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Mira,
“I’m asking because we’re all often made to see whiteness as neutral and default so those others are the ones with “special features” such as almond eyes or kinky hair.”
Or you could take it to mean that whites just aren’t very distinctive. 😉
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Since White is the default, in the West, it’s almost impossible to see “normal” as “distinctive.”
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lol True, true.
But the problem is, my culture make me see whites as a very diverse group (do Greeks and Norwegians have anything in common?) This is, of course, false eurocentric thinking because Africans and Asians and Native Americans are as diverse as Europeans.
So I think we’ll have to go with nose bump or thin lips and low cheekbones. (Though there are plenty of whites with high cheekbones…)
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When it comes down to it, it’s hard to properly describe almost any “race.” How “kinky” is truly kinky hair? How almond are almond eyes? How white is White?
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@ King –
You echo my sentiments exactly.
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What’s the difference between eyelid surgery and White women using botox to plump up their lips?
All races of women try to look “more beautiful” — whatever that means.
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I don’t think the person who described the “ethnic” features of Asians, blacks was suggesting that white is normal. This thread is a discussion of Asian features, and many of the commenters are black and they are discussing those two groups and not necessarily whites, hence whites are ignored.
What makes whites different? I would say colored hair, eyes, thin lips and very narrow nostrils.
But, you’re right. Blacks have more than kinky hair, thick lips, etc. Those features are extreme as saying all Asians have slanted eyes, yellow skin, straight black hair, or all whites are blondes with pale skin and blue eyes.
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That’s because races are not biological fact.
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With regard to:
“What’s the difference between eyelid surgery and White women using botox to plump up their lips?
I think the key here is understanding the cultural context, things do not occur in a vacuum.
The position of the races making the difference.
In a world where race did not matter it would be of no consequence, but because we do live in a world of ‘race’ need I say anymoe.
It comes back to the thing I referred to previously in another thread.
It is fine to speak of ‘humaness’ but you conflate and replace ‘humaness’ with ‘race’ and then suggest you are actually having the ‘same’ conversation.
That is the difference!!
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Forgive that last post, all the ‘you’s’ were not directed at you personally.
Perhaps one of my worse posts ever for English/grammar ha ha
Anyhow I hope you understood the gist of what I was trying to suggest
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And I forgot to add that this talk that ‘we are all humans’ and seeing things from a human-centric perspective is a very recent development within ‘human cognition and understanding’.
One could use post World War 2 as your landmark, so less than a hundred years old.
Some ‘skeptics’ like me will tell you that such talk in the real world is nothing but ‘political expediency’ but that is a different topic, perhaps for a different time.
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“Come gather ’round people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You’ll be drenched to the bone.
If your time to you
Is worth savin’
Then you better start swimmin’
Or you’ll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin.”
Bob Dylan, 1964
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@asada:
This person had an interesting take regarding almond eyes.
http://clairelight.typepad.com/seelight/2006/09/almond_eyes.html
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Here are pics of actresses/singers who had eyelid surgery. The pics shown are the actresses/singers when they were young prior to surgery. There is always speculation regarding these actresses/singers whether their eyes, nose, boobs, etc. are natural.
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Check this out.
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With regard to:
“This person had an interesting take regarding almond eyes.
http://clairelight.typepad.com/seelight/2006/09/almond_eyes.html ”
Very interesting indeed.
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Leigh 204. I read the articles and looked at the pictures you posted. They were very interesting especially the author’s take on the term almond eyes. This entire post has been informative. I hate to sound like I’ve been living in a vacuum, but I hadn’t heard of this surgery before. Plastic surgery in general kind of creeps me out ( fake butt, fake breasts, fake lips…shudders). I guess if you’ve had a double mastectomy or a horrifying facial disfigurement then I could see the purpose for it. But to willingly put yourself under the knife for unnecessary purposes just seems extreme. I would be scared to have unnecessary (and yes I would call eyelid surgery unnecessary.) surgery around my eyes. What if that knife slips and one is rendered blind? I have insecurities about my body too, but as I get older I just deal with it.
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This person had an interesting take regarding almond eyes.
Actually, I never saw “almond eyes” as race specific. When I say “almond eyes”, I mean on eyes that are more oval than round… Well, people in general have eyes that appear oval and not round, but some have eyes that appear rounder. And these are usually whites- which doesn’t mean whites can’t have oval (almond) shaped eyes.
But to use “almond” as a politically correct term instead of “slanted”? Not sure if it’s ok.
Actually, I am not sure if there is a way to describe these eyes without saying “Asian” or “single eyelid”.
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@mochasister:
I understand what you mean. In my younger years, I contemplated having this surgery, but thanks to my mother setting me straight, I did not. Believe me, when I think about this now, I cringe at the thought, “What the hell was I thinking?”
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Even describing them as “Asian eyes” doesn’t seem all that PC.
My eyes, as I’ve mentioned, are double-lidded but they also tilt upwards (or least they appear to, probably due to a combination of my having eye folds and high cheekbones). I take no issue with them being described as slanted or almond-shaped or even Asian (though I have no knowledge of having any Asian ancestry).
It’s strange but I feel like I have to be careful in choosing words to describe my own eyes…but, then again, I’ve only ever received compliments on my them, and I wouldn’t change them for the world — maybe therein lies the difference….
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I disagree with “the spread of eyelid surgery seems to go hand in hand with Westernization”, since, as you mentioned, Asian Americans are less likely to do it. Asian Americans and Asian Canadians are aware of the (Western) negative connotations of double eyelid surgery as “acting white”, and I’m sure we tend to be more opposed to skin whitening products for the same reason.
But then Asians of the West go ahead and do things like dye their hair blonde, mingle largely with whites and pick up their racist views, and buy into the “hype” of being the model minority, thus contributing to further divisions of non-whites in the West. Not saying that ALL Asians in the West do this, but a large majority do.
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Mary J. Blige dies her hair blonde.
Mary J. Blige hangs around White people.
Shame on Mary J. Blige.
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Never knew Mary J. Blige had Asian heritage.
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If it quacks like a duck.
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Mary J. Blige dies her hair blonde.
Mary J. Blige hangs around White people.
Shame on Mary J. Blige.
And the Arab Trader strawman finally makes its appearance. What took you so long?
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You’re right.
You have a firm handle an describing how the majority of Asians behave. How much straw is in your wagon brother?
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So let me get this straight — I speak on aspects of internalized racism against Asians based off concepts like facts and experience, and you not only present b.s. strawmen to try and discredit me, but you say I’m employing one as well? Is that the general gist of your “argument”?
How’s that credibility of yours doing lately? I heard it took a beating.
Read and rered to ensure clarity, “brother”.
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Yeah… the strawman analogies are probably getting a little non-witty at this point, don’t you agree?
Who, in your opinion, are the “Asians of the West?”
Koreans? Taiwanese? Mongolians? Japanese? Filipinos? Chinese? Tibetans? Burmese?
And how did you become such an expert on how the majority of them act? Are you some kind of Asian cultural scholar, or are you just going by what you see on T.V.?
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I think the Irish are the Asians of the West.
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Well… some of them are blonde, and they hang around White people.
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Number one, Asians of the West are those who live in what is known as the Western world. Like America and Canada. Got it? Now onto number two…
I had a group of friends of Asian descent for a very long time. They were Koreans. Not only that, but I went to a school with a sizeable Korean demographic. And not only that, but I’ve been to places around the United States, like New York, California & Seattle where there is a large population of Chinese & Japanese. And not only that, but there’s plenty of evidence for things like the FACT that Asians comprise the largest demographic of interracial relationships, usually to whites, and there’s people here that can vouch for me with their own experiences and observations that I’m not talking out of my ass. Again, THIS DOESN’T APPLY FOR ALL Asians, but a good portion that it’s enough to warrant the discussion. All of which has little to do with television. Got it? On to number three..
Snide, unwitty, unsubtle semi-personal attacks are so passe. I would think that if you want to accuse someone of being unwitty, you better be darn sure that you’re pretty witty yourself. That’s just the way I feel. And until you can be such, drop the sarcasm, humor, condescension, and put down the scarecrow shield, then I’ll consider no longer ignoring you. Got it?
Good. I wish you well, my friend.
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Just a question, Keyser: is Brazil a part of the “western world” in your definition?
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Keyser, I have nothing against you personally. A personal or even semi personal attack would be me attacking your person, not your ideas.
Now think about it. Even by your extremely narrow definition of Asians who live in the U.S. and Canada, what percentage of them would you say that you’ve personally observed?
50%
20%
7%
1%
0.0000000216%
So even if some of your best friends were Asians, it really wouldn’t give you any platform to try and describe how MOST Asians behave, would it?
I’m just asking for reasonable consistency.
Would you accept that a person of another ethnicity could speak to how most “Black people of the West” acted or thought?
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@ KeyserSoze:
But then Asians of the West go ahead and do things like dye their hair blonde, mingle largely with whites and pick up their racist view…
If you live in a Western country, in which 70-90% of people are white, mingling with whites is hard to avoid, really.
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I remember reading this article a while back. And I found once again. Please tell me what you think?
http://inyourface.ocregister.com/2008/09/09/asian-eyelid-surgery-still-sparks-controversy/657/
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I meant I found it once again.
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KeyserSoze, I agree with you. I’ve had similar experiences in places which were largely Asian, but mainly with East Asians. However, I don’t think the rate of interracial marriages necessarily indicates what you’re implying; it could mean many things. But the circumstances under which many of these unions happen… well, that’s something to inquire about.
Note: I am not attacking Asians, so to anyone who wishes to respond to this, leave the defensiveness and snark at the door.
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I don’t have any problem agreeing with Keyser that these things do occur in the Asian community. In fact, they occur, to some degree, in all ethnic communities. The largest outdating/outmarriage numbers (by volume) are between Whites and Latinos.
However, the problem comes when anyone tries to sate equivocally, how the *MAJORITY* of Asian act. It’s not enough to just say, “Oh well, I’m not talking about ALL of them… I’m sure there are *some* exceptions… but MOST Asians think like X.”
The only way you can know what the majority of Asians think or do is to survey Asians themselves, and find out. If one’s facts are based on real data, (not personal anecdotes) then no problem.
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@King
The largest outdating/outmarriage numbers (by volume) are between Whites and Latinos.
Could this possibly be because many of those “latinos” consider themselves to be “white”?
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…or “black”, as the case may be?
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It may be, but I’ve seen the numbers, and as in most cases, they didn’t come with an explanation as to why.
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King,
Forgive me again, just to say that it is very difficult to ‘know’ what a majority population do, and even more difficult to understand reasoning behind it.
Even the Social Sciences of Research have their limitations in this respect.
For instance surveys only reveal certain things, and many not in fact reveal the ‘truth’, if you studied the area.
So to conclude it all depends on the nature of the conversation whether one can say ‘all asians do………’
or whether it is impractical to suggest ‘all Asians do…’
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There is no case when you can accurately say that “All Asians” do anything.
You can, however, say it with great inaccuracy, as often as you like. Saying what MOST Asians do would be easier, but still requires a lot of effort to be accurate.
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Cheers King,
Just one more thing, if you do not mind.
However with regard to language it is still possible to ‘infer meaning’.
So if someone says that ‘ALL Asians are racists’. They are inferring the ‘collective’ rather than ‘an individual head count of every Asian’.
Similarly again one can say ‘ALL Black men are potential rapist’ and in this instance mean it to suggest that the ALL does mean ‘an individual head count’.
This is why I suggested it depends on the context of the conversation, and in this second post what can be inferred
…too then decide how one should best respond.
If this makes any sense
ha ha
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Precision in language is probably preferable, especially when making broad statements about other ethnicities, genders, nationalities or cultures. Wouldn’t you agree?
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ha ha ha….Good man!!
Yes I would agree King, but also at the same time, to a lesser to degree ‘no’, since language is about inference.
Someone can say for instance say ‘Most Black men are rapist’ to infer or to mean ‘ALL Black men are rapist’, even if they have not overtly said so.
However, I do concede to your point – but we have to be careful that we are not being too over-academic, and if we are being thus are we doing so within its right context.
Hope this makes some sense!!
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I agree with you that inference is a part of language.
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and that it complicates meanings
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Cheers King,
Its strange having this conversation with you reminded me of something which was produced here in the UK about improving use of language, listening and conversational skills, which was produced by one of the largest telephone communication operators/suppliers BT.
Its amazing how much one can miss through not listening correctly and/or by using ‘imprecise language’, as you rightfully point out.
Its ashame I cannot remmeber the weblink page
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If you do remember it, please do post it. I’d be interested in seeing what you mean.
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King,
Here yu go mate.
http://www.numberoneskill.com/number1skill/guide/v5/nav1.ikml?PHPSESSID=0c6c664d7781ffae89e6c75332183b95
(written)
http://www.numberoneskill.com/number1skill/archive/talkworksOneAudio.ikml?PHPSESSID=0c6c664d7781ffae89e6c75332183b95
(audio)
http://www.numberoneskill.com/number1skill/dialogics/No1Art1.html
It is sometime ago King, so some of the information may overlap from each link, but this should cover everything, and they should be all different.
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Ah! many thanks!!!
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Eurasian Sensation,
“If you live in a Western country, in which 70-90% of people are white, mingling with whites is hard to avoid, really.”
And this would be a good argument if the U.S. was 70-90 percent white, but it is not. 🙂
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Not that I feel the need to defend myself, but –
In the West, Asians are the most represented group in interracial relationships, and are more likely found to be in one than any other group of people – fact. In the West, the most popular interracial couple that includes Asians is the White Man & the Asian Woman – fact. While not mingling amongst themselves, Asians largely mingle with whites over any other group of people – fact. This doesn’t automatically mean that it’s some sort of racial preference, but given the fact of how the concept of whiteness and white racial supremacy has affected nonwhites on a personal level the world over, it’s not entirely out of the question. And seeing how Asians, by THEIR OWN WILL, interact largely with whites, and only marginally with other groups, which is funny because they tend to live in areas of the West that have large populations of other nonwhites, and we’re not supposed to believe that in turn, they’d pick up some of the racial beliefs that whites share? That this all just some big fabrication that I’ve made up?
In the West, a large group of Asians(particularly East Asians) have done things like dye their hair blonde or get blonde highlights or whatever, or get the double eyelid surgery done. I’m not saying that you’re “not allowed” to dye your hair in a different color, but again, with the concept of whiteness, and seeing how the color Asians usually pick when they change or slightly modify the color of their hair is blonde, coupled with things like double eyelid surgery, we’re supposed to come to the conclusion that this has nothing to do with wanting to appear more “Western” or the influence of white Western propaganda couldn’t possibly be at play at all in their minds? That this all just mere coincidence and that I’m some sort of “self-centered racist”?
With all these in mind, why such the double standards when talking about Asians and internalized racism? If we were to apply these circumstances amongst blacks, for instance, we would be in agreement that whiteness has affected their psyche, and we would be in agreement that there is some degree of self-hatred and “soul-selling” prevalent. And we would be right. But when it comes to Asians, it is disregarded and justified with excuses and silly strawman arguments. Why? If Asians in the West are so “aware”, then why do such a large portion of them continue to do things like this? I’m not saying “stick to your own kind”. I’m saying With all these FACTS in mind, how could you argue against this without calling me a racist and questioning my integrity? I expected more from so-called “anti-racists”.
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@ KeyserSoze:
not saying you are wrong. And there will be many cases of Asian people to whom what you say will apply. But I think you are oversimplifying.
You say that when Asians dye their hair, the colour they usually choose is blonde.
Could that not be said of anyone who dyes their hair? When white folks dye their hair, it is usually blonde as well.
Most Asians I’ve seen with dyed hair dye it brown actually. Which probably doesn’t change things, since that’s also a white-person hair colour.
But that’s kinda the problem. Given that white people have a wide range of hair colours, any colour that Asians choose to dye their hair that exists within the human spectrum, is a white-person hair colour.
You say Asians mix with whites more than with other races. (I’m not from the US so I’ll assume that is an accurate description.) Your reasoning for this has some truth to it (I won’t deny that there is a lot of Asian racism towards blacks), but I’ll add a couple of factors:
1: Numbers. In a country that is mostly white, you have far more opportunities to mingle with white people than with a minority group.
2: Class and income. People tend to mingle with people at a similar level of education, social class and income to themselves. While it is difficult to generalise about “Asians”, they are more likely than the average to be college educated, whereas blacks and Latinos are less likely. Which means that in the circles that Asians move in, would there be more white people than black people?
(My speculation is based on what I think I know about the US, so forgive me if I’ve made an error there).
So again, this is not to say that you are wrong in how you have described many Asians. White brainwashing IS a factor. But I think some things are not as simple as how you have described.
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Well, that statement makes much more sense than your previous statement. It took more effort, but it’s more accurate.
The vast majority of Asians whom I see have black hair, but I’ve seen a few blondes, but probably less than the hispanic blondes I’ve seen around.
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@ Natasha W:
I said:
“If you live in a Western country, in which 70-90% of people are white, mingling with whites is hard to avoid, really.”
You said:
And this would be a good argument if the U.S. was 70-90 percent white, but it is not.
Were we talking specifically about the US? I believe Keyser was referring to “Asians in the West”. Excuse my rough estimates, but isn’t the US about 70% white? (Okay probably 60-65% now that I think about it). The UK is about 80% white I think. Is Canada about the same? Australia is about 90% white.
That was where my “70-90%” came from.
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@ Keyser
My statements were never meant to say that the issues you have outlined above don’t exist. Eurasian Sensation will confirm how many times some penitent poster will arrive at an Asian activist website, and spill some variation of the following mea culpa:
“I have lived among Whites all of my life. I was ridiculed because of my appearance as a child, so ever since, I have done everything I could to deny shameful differences. I deliberately adopted only White friends, I religiously listened to White music, I talked White, in fact, I wanted to BE White! But then one day I realized that no matter how hard I tried I would always be tolerated but never totally accepted as one of them. I would never be seen as an ‘American’ and would always be a perpetual outsider. It was then that I began to read Asian activist blogs and begin to discover my own Asian identity. I no longer wish to be whitewashed.”
The Interracial disparity (between AF/WM > AM/WF) has been fueling the the hottest debate, on internalized racism, in the Asian-American community for years now, with the followers of Frank Chin on one side and the followers of Magdalene Hong Kingston on the other.
I’m not saying these things aren’t true, I’m just saying that you can’t necessarily foist the upon ALL or even MOST Asians, unless you have some real numbers that say so.
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^S/he was referring to particularly to the U.S. and Canada:
“Number one, Asians of the West are those who live in what is known as the Western world. Like America and Canada. Got it? “
“but I’ve been to places around the United States, like New York, California & Seattle where there is a large population of Chinese & Japanese. “
So, the U.S. is 60 odd percent white and Canada is ~80 percent white. 70-90 percent is a pretty rough estimate given those figures.
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Eurasian Sensation,
“You say Asians mix with whites more than with other races. (I’m not from the US so I’ll assume that is an accurate description.) Your reasoning for this has some truth to it …but I’ll add a couple of factors:”
“1: Numbers. In a country that is mostly white, you have far more opportunities to mingle with white people than with a minority group.
But Asians in the U.S. live in large metropolitan areas where the white population is significantly lower than in other parts of the U.S. In fact, they loive mainly in areas where whites are the minority (like Greater Los Angeles, which hosts one of the highesr Asian population in the U.S., is ~49 percent white).
“2: Class and income. People tend to mingle with people at a similar level of education, social class and income to themselves. While it is difficult to generalise about “Asians”, they are more likely than the average to be college educated, whereas blacks and Latinos are less likely. Which means that in the circles that Asians move in, would there be more white people than black people?
That may be true, but if it’s about class and income, why aren’t Asians mingling and marrying with each other? Since they would be in the same class and income. Instead, aprroximately 60 percent of all Asians in the U.S. married interracially in the last two years (as in prior years), mostly to whites.
Considering the above fact (that they live in areas where whites are the minority or a smaller percentage of the population), why is that?
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Don’t get me wrong, I’m not indicting anyone for marrying interracially (and it would be hypocritical for me to do so, since I am in an interracial union myself). But these trends don’t occur in a vacuum.
KeyserSoze,
“With all these in mind, why such the double standards when talking about Asians and internalized racism? If we were to apply these circumstances amongst blacks, for instance, we would be in agreement that whiteness has affected their psyche, and we would be in agreement that there is some degree of self-hatred and “soul-selling” prevalent. And we would be right. But when it comes to Asians, it is disregarded and justified with excuses and silly strawman arguments… I expected more from so-called “anti-racists”.
Cosign.
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So is Brazil part of the west or what?
And if we’re not, just what in Sam Hell is this “west” that you guys keep going on and on about?
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@ Natasha:
“That may be true, but if it’s about class and income, why aren’t Asians mingling and marrying with each other? Since they would be in the same class and income. Instead, aprroximately 60 percent of all Asians in the U.S. married interracially in the last two years (as in prior years), mostly to whites.”
60%? I’m not sure if it is you or I who is reading those figures incorrectly.
I interpret it as 19.5% of Asian males who marry, marrying interracially, and 39.5% of Asian females who marry, marrying interracially. Which means an average of 29.5% for Asians overall.
Which is still a high rate, but only slightly higher than Hispanics (25%).
And 70% of Asians are still marrying other Asians.
It’s a bit confusing but I think I read that data correctly.
“Number one, Asians of the West are those who live in what is known as the Western world. Like America and Canada. Got it? “
Ok cool, I didn’t notice it the first time. Of course, you can’t blame me for having a different idea of what a “Western country” is. I live in one, and it’s not Canada or the US. Typical USian thinking! 😉
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“Number one, Asians of the West are those who live in what is known as the Western world. Like America and Canada. Got it? “
Making Brazil officially not part of the West. Sorry Thad.
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I don’t how this post turned from Asian double eyelid surgery to Asians outmarrying to Whites, but…
That’s how I interpreted it as well.
I agree. Most Asians from different ethnic backgrounds do prefer to marry other Asians.
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Previously, I mentioned one of my friends had the double eyelids, but she wanted more definition in the folds. Her eyes resemble this woman who also had the same surgery. Does that make her want to be white?
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Eurasian Sensation,
“60%? I’m not sure if it is you or I who is reading those figures incorrectly.
I interpret it as 19.5% of Asian males who marry, marrying interracially, and 39.5% of Asian females who marry, marrying interracially. Which means an average of 29.5% for Asians overall.
Which is still a high rate, but only slightly higher than Hispanics (25%).”
I guess you could read it that way too. But I didn’t because they separated the categories for a reason, so we could see the trends per gender.
Also, Hispanics can be black (David Ortiz) or white (Cameron Diaz), or both, or neither. And they are coming from different cultures. So a catch-all “Hispanic” category isn’t telling us much.
Third, you have to keep in mind that those figures are including Southeast Asians as well as East Asians. I was under the impression that both I and Keyser were mainly referring to East Asians (Koreans, Chinese, Japanese, etc). The number would undoubtedly be higher if Southeast Asians were not included, since they tend to marry within their ethnicities.
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I was looking for some famous Asian celebrities who did the double eyelid surgery, and Takeshi Kaneshiro showed up. It wouldn’t matter anyway because crease or no crease, he’s still a mighty fine looking man.
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@SW6:
Here’s another link. It’s the same pic.
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Wow, I am glad I did this post before the posts on gorgeous Asian men started going up.
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@abagond:
I don’t understand. What exactly do you mean?
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Because the issue came up with Takeshi Kaneshiro.
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leigh, I think it’s possible. I heard rumors about it when I was researching for the Takeshi Kaneshiro post. But most people said it was just a rumor and he only widens his eyes in some photos and his modeling photos [may be] retouched.
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I’ve heard the rumor as well so I’ve looked up old pictures of Takeshi’s. From what I can discern, his eyes didn’t have a pronounced eye crease like he does now.
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I found some more pics.
Whoa.
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Well, I still think he is very attractive regardless. It isn’t his eyes that make him look good.
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@Natasha W:
I know Takeshi’s very, very attractive. I’ve always maintained that. Whether or not he did his eyes, the point is, the crease doesn’t make him better looking. He just is.
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Yes, and I’m not entirely sure though because I saw recent pics where his eyes look smaller. Like this one with Giorgio Armani in 2008:
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Takeshi’s eyes do appear smaller in that pic you provided. Personally, I think he did his eyes. Here’s a clip I found when he was a singer in his younger days. He doesn’t look drastically different. Anyway, Takeshi got it going on even then. 🙂
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Huh. You might be right.
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A native Korean friend of mine mentioned that cosmetic surgery centres can be found throughout certain districts in South Korea. She said eyelid surgery is so common and affordable, you’re able to go to work within a few days of the procedure. And a newer method of double eyelid surgery deals with tiny incisions and stitching as seen here:
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Amazing how a hot man can save an awful video and a dreadful song lol.
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LOL! I think you can put Takeshi into anything and he can more than make up for it. 😀
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I do acknowledge that there are definitely Western influences that have affected how Asians perceive beauty, but I also resent that people make it seem as if Asians who get their eyelids done are self-loathing and want to look white. Or, when Asians or even Black people want lighter skin, they want to look white.
Not that you should fight racism with racism, but don’t people see that it works the other way round as well?
Why don’t people ever talk about how White people tan to appear darker? Or, when they want to get butt implants or something to look less white.
To me, I think people just want what they can’t have.
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On the last picture of the Japanese singer, she looked more beautiful before the surgery… she still looks nice but to me she looks quite scary after the surgery almost like their mangas animé…
Anyway, I will never understand people who want to go under the knife and think they’ll be more beautiful, except for those who had a real good reason to do so such as those who had accidents or born with malformation. But if God gave you a body with all it members, why go and do such a “dehumanising” act while they are people who are born with a missing body member and would wish to have a full body.
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Anyway, when human being try to change what God created it “ALWAYS” turn ugly, very ugly with undeniable consequences.
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Ayumi Hamasaki went too extreme, she resembles a frog in some photos. That said, not all E. Asians are stereotypically single-lidded or even small lidded. All of my aunts and cousins have double lids. About half of them don’t even have epicanthic folds, their eyes look more “western” than those who’ve had the surgery, all nature given. Do they look “white”? No. Just a bit more Eurasian perhaps.
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[…] Before & After Asian Eyelid Surgery 1 […]
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Regarding AF/WM unions, majority of first generation Asians marry/date within their own group
but second or third generation the ratio gets much lower. Also one of the main reasons of AF/WM union being popular is acceptance by their family and friends (somehow, these unions are accepted very well and also work out very well – I am talking from my personal experiences around myself, my friends and relatives.) Most East Asian with middle upper class background (in which majority of them are) live predominantly whites and Asian population area.
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Also Asian females tend to assimilate to western culture a lot faster and more so than Asian males. That might explain part of the reasons why there are more AF/WM unions and a lot less AM/WF unions. Many AF/WM unions I know are mostly professionals so AF tend to go for mates who are more supportive of their career and open views on female social issues. I saw several second generation AM/WF couples around me. Second generation AM are already westernized so it is a lot easier for them to marry outside their group.
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@Marie11:
I think you meant to place your responses in the Asian Fetish thread, correct?
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I was responding to Asian interracial marriage comments above. Yes there was similar thread on Asian Fetish I responded also. Both threads were similar topics.
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Recently, CNN Asia featured a 12-year-old Korean girl getting eyelid surgery in an article:
Plastic surgery boom as Asians seek ‘western’ look
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/05/19/korea.beauty/index.html
Even post surgery, the girl still look Asian to me. Btw, I think the mother is nuts for allowing her daughter to undergo surgery.
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She may still look Asian but if shes getting snipped up at 12, you know it’s not going to stop there. That article is just sickening.
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I write about internalized racism in Chinese-Mandarin. No one seems to care about what I say because internalized racism in the East Asian communities = $$$
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@ 內酷超人
I’m not even Asian and that video simply was painful to watch. But then again, you don’t have to be Asian to understand how internalized racism can breed contempt for one’s own non-white features. Btw, on top of the eyelid surgery for Asian women, isn’t there a surgery for calf-muscles to? For more “shapely” (European) legs.
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I think what 內酷超人 was hinting at was that no one wants to listen to an actual Chinese person talk about internalised racism in East Asia itself. They do not want to hear it because the idea that East Asians there hate themselves just like the ones in North America sells. I myself find that many western people who are not East Asian are all too happy to believe all East Asians hate their race and want to be White even if they do not live in a predominantly White culture.
@ Franklin
As far as I know, the calf surgery is actually to get their legs as slim and lean as possible by cutting a ligament so a muscle in the calves becomes atrophied and shrinks. This leads to there being barely any curve to the calf and very slim lower legs. Whoever told you it it is for `more shapely European legs’ has probably viewed the whole thing through a White person’s lens and assumed those who opt for the surgery must be trying to look White. Oh, and there is also a more `stocky’ body type that East Asians can have just as often as they can have a willowy frame, meaning they do not have to look to another race to see naturally thicker and muscular legs. The common view that these types of legs are unattractive is why people get the surgery.
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Yes. Business do try to take advantage on people’s insecurity or self-loathing values. In East Asia, the internalized racism is so severe that you will see it way beyond beauty standard. Anything you can identified with the label of “western” are considered as a “HIGHER” class. A lot of people over there try too look and act more “Western”, people who “appeared” to be more western usually look down to people who aren’t.
Entertainment industry over there is the worst for perpetuating such a standard. In magazine, there will be article, which “TEACH” you how to “TELL” if you have a “PERFECT” nose and eyes. East Asian are obsess with their nose, eye, size & shape of their faces, shape of their skull, size of their chin, shape of their legs, and everything cause them look different in a suit due to some of them having “flat” body from a Less-Opened Ribcage and natural spinal curvature. wow .. that is a whole laundry list of features.
Of course, this whole thing all started from Meiji Restoration. There are reason why East Asia got to this whole mess. unfortunately, it has a long history trace back to about 150 year ~ 200 years. But long story short, by avoiding being colonized, they actually colonized themselves.
So what is the problem there now? the problem is, most of them are not even aware that their current standards are harming the social-psycological well-being of 97% of the people there.
Why are they so-NOT-aware? Because everything is so subconscious to them, under the “New Asian” identity. This is particularly obvious in China, the slogan of “New China” often consist of elements from mostly European-roots. That’s why many of them are wasting two years of their salary away just to buy a name brand bag. They constantly trying to prove themselves under what “THEIR” interpretation of what’s western, or the most original European, as an act to fill their insecurity.
anyway, it’s impossible to go into history facts here. Whatever I wrote here, is just a few phenomenons in the East Asian countries, (mostly China, Hong Kong).
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Im getting this surgery done in Korea. I live in America, but I’m not doing it be more white. I’m proud of my Asian heritage, but my eyes make me look expressionless and the extra skin over my cornea(?) is extremely uncomfortable and is easily irritable. Its more of a self-satisfaction than an assimilation. I’m the most Asian Asian my friends know :D….I find white washed asians, who were actually BORN in Asia quite annoying….
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@ JisooShim:
How old are you if you don’t mind me asking? A Korean gf of mine says it’s very common for young women to get the eyelid surgery done during the winter/summer holidays. Are you getting this done for aesthetic reasons or due to the skin overhang causing vision troubles? I’m curious.
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I’m 17…. I’m getting the surgery for both reasons. I personally don’t like having small eyes, although I believe they give a unique charisma to some others. The skin overhang makes my eyes easily susceptible to eye disease and infection. Looking at my family history, there is also a very high possibility of my eyelids drooping more and my eyelashes becoming ingrown, eventually damaging vision. My father and my grandmother are currently facing the downside of not having the surgery at my age and do not wish me to go through the same. The surgery is common enough that all of my relatives are offering to pay for it as a homecoming present. I hope that answered your questions and gave this original post an insight of someone with a personal experience with the surgery. You’re welcome to ask more 😀
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@JisooShim:
I understand what you’re talking about. I’m a bit older than you. And as I’ve aged, I notice the skin on the tops of my lids have gradually drooped and made my lashes (once stick straight) to curve slightly downwards. Nothing that an eyelash curler and mascara can’t help. 🙂 Well, If it’s for a medical reason, then I can’t say I blame you. Still, I can’t help but feel a bit troubled that you say you don’t like having small eyes, only because there is nothing wrong with the eyes you were born with imho.
My Korean gf says it’s so much cheaper to get your eyes done in Korea because it’s in such a big demand. She also mentioned that the surgery is so common that eyelid surgery isn’t even deemed as surgery at all. Anyway, I do hope you give us an update on your eyelid surgery. I’m quite curious as to how it turns out for you.
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@JisooShim:
Btw, have you checked out soompi and the 400+ pages on information regarding double eyelid surgery?
http://www.soompi.com/forums/topic/68893-double-eyelid-surgery-thread/?s=b44463d2cf8b7c122783293eb6b8d19c
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@Bulanikgirl:
Surgeons will always suggest the most natural look for an individual’s face. For example, if a person’s eyes excessively droop, they will suggest having it brought up. However, anything beyond the neccessities is up to the patient. Often times people bring pictures of celebrities wanting their eyes “just like his/hers” but as all faces are different, this may look awkward or even scary on a person with a completely different face shape, resulting in cat-eyes. Although doctors advise against such excessiveness, they can’t refuse to perform the surgery unless there are health risks.
Not really opinion but what I know….
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@Bulanikgirl:
Your post reminded me of a Brazilian plastic surgery addict. She desired the almond-shaped/cat-eyes. It’s interesting in a sense that I was ridiculed as a kid for my eyes and here’s this woman going out of her way to achieve that upturned eye look. Here are some pictures of her in the link I provided.
http://justsicknetwork.com/index.php/Plastic-Surgery/plastic-surgery-addicts.html?directory=1
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@Bulanikgirl:
That’s a good question. I really don’t know, but it’s possible.
Yes. Not only was I taunted for my eyes, but I had an incident with one girl in high school who mocked my full lips. Now that I’m an adult, a lot of people have commented that my lips are one of my best features. Go figure.
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Got my surgery done!!! Looking at the results, it’s totally worth it but at the same time never will I put myself through that again…. Apparantly I had defective eyelid muscles so my eyes couldn’t open fully resulting in smaller eyes than I actually had. In a couple of years the sugery would have been a necessity anyway. The surgery itself was painless but really scary and the aftercare was a total pain. All in all. I have no regrets. 🙂
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@JisooShim:
I’m glad everything worked out well. I know there’s a lot of sweling after the surgery. How was the recovery? How do your eyes look – is the lid crease quite visible? And what kind of double eyelid surgical procedure did you have? Full incisional or non-incisional?
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Oh, I also forgot to ask how much did this surgery cost? You mentioned you were having this procedure done in Korea. I know it’s inexpensive there compared to elswhere especially in the US.
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This is just as creepy as Black Folk Straightening their Hair !!!
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…And just as creepy as people using curlers!!!
and Makeup!!
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You can always go back to your natural hair when you relax it. But, if you go for surgery you can never go back to the way you were
But they are both creepy in the way in which someone told you something that occurs naturally in your race is WRONG and you go in change it.
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There are plenty of things that people change about their appearance all on their own.
The Native American Selish tribe compressed the heads as infants by artificial means as a sign of beauty.
The Shan and the Kayin (burmese tribes) wear neck rings to lengthen their necks as a sign of beauty.
African tribes put plates in their lower lips, South American tribes do all manner of modification. And how about all of the permanent tattoos that are done in the pacific islands?
Nobody gets bent out of shape when White women curl their hair. Nobody gets bothered when a White woman with curly hair straightens her hair. Nobody gets mad when an Asian gets a perm.
PEOPLE change their appearances, based on style – sometimes permanently. Why should anyone get bent out of shape if someone chooses to temporarily straighten their hair?
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@leigh204:
Yeah there was a lot of swelling at first and slight pain around the eyes immediately after the surgery. You can’t let water touch the eyes until the stitches are taken out (usually 5 to 7 days post surgery) and I couldn’t even wash my face for a few days….. Gross btw. They gave me an ice pack and I had to have it on constantly. Recovery was overall a bitch….. For the first week or so the lid crease was very visible and thick which I’m attributing to the swelling, but now they’re hardly visible (I prefer them like that). I went with non incisional because the doctor advised it. Incisional surgery has over double the recovery time and gives much more stress to the patient. Non incisional also has the downside that the eyes may turn out mismatched but I decided to take that chance. (my eyes didn’t turn out to be mismatched) On a further note, there was an after effect I didn’t consider. Because the surgery revealed parts of my eyes that never saw the light of day since I was born my vision was/ is very shaky. For about a week I saw doubles. The doctor assured me that it wasn’t unusual and will return to normal. Surely enough it is getting better. I’m not sure of the cost because my immediate family didn’t pay for it. My uncle who is friends with my doctor did. I am sure that it was less than half than what it is in the US ($5000) so around $2000 should be close. Although it’s still kind of awkward, I’m happy with the way my eyes look and I haven’t lost my signature Asian slant to my eyes 😉
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Thanks for sharing your experience with us, JisooShim. I’m wondering what your eyes look like now. I hope you don’t mind me asking, but would it be possible to post a before/ after of your eyes? I’d like to see if there is a noticeable difference.
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Sorry i dont really feel comfortable posting a picture of myself on a site I’m fairly new to, especially on a public forum. All I can say is that there is a noticeable difference, but not so much that it would make people say, “Oh, she’s had some work done…” You’ll have to settle for that I’m afraid…
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@ JisooShim:
My apologies for asking in the first place. I completely understand where you’re coming from.
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Haha It’s fine, just one of those times when curiosity wins. 🙂
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It’s all good as the saying goes. 🙂 Anyway, I used to think I was a monolid in a sense that when you looked at my eyes straight on, there was no crease whatsoever. However, I’ve realized I have a crease albeit tiny. Here’s an example of a Korean actress/model, Hong Soo Ah, with similar eyes:
You can’t see the crease at certain angles.
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However, you can see the little creases here. (I’m just like that.)
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Oopsie. I screwed up on the xanga pick pic. I meant to display the eyes with the visible crease.
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Hello just wanted to give you a quick heads up. The words in your content seem to be running off the screen in Safari. I’m not sure if this is a format issue or something to do with web browser compatibility but I figured I’d post to let you know. The design and style look great though! Hope you get the problem solved soon. Cheers
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^ Not in Safari 5.1 (Mac Version)
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Here’s one Asian woman who had a small crease on one eye and no crease on the other.
Before
After eyelid surgery, the eyes were evened out and the creases were deepened as well. I can see a subtle difference. Her surgery was well done. It’s not obvious looking.
After
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I didn’t read all the comments but since WHEN did ‘double eyelids’ or ‘pale white skin’ “BELONG” to the whites or western people?! The MAJORITY of the entire population (ASIANS, blacks, whites, Hispanic, etc) HAVE DOUBLE EYELIDS!!!!! Everyone is different and everyone has their own standards for beauty. A LOT of different races have pale light skin. Beauty is universal. Maybe a FEW people get surgery to look more like another race but NOT ALL! I’m tired of people being so damn arrogant. People want surgery to boost their confidence and to beautiful to themselves!! When other races gets bigger boobs or get a bigger ass, does that mean they want to be Black or Hispanic?! Or if they got a liposuction does that mean they want to look skinny like Asians?! I’m tired of hearing this bull crap of people wanting to look more “westernized” as white people do not set the standards of beauty. Each person sets their own standard. My Mom and Grandma both got the surgery and they never talked about being “white” but talked about wanting a crease even BEFORE moving to America! A LOT of asians have double eyelids. I grew up in a relatively Asian neighborhood and 98% of them have double eyelids!! So enough with the ‘wanting to look western’ bs. Everyone has their own insecurities they want to change. And surgery, whether it be nose, eyes, boobs, ass, chin, etc, DOES NOT MEAN they are trying to look like another race.
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All in all, standard of beauty has always been subjective. If you look into different ethnic groups, tribes, civilizations.
In East Asia, it was around Meiji period that Japanese Gov promote their tie with Europeans, they also encourage Japanese people to marry European, encourage European diet, cultures, and the propaganda anime during Russo-Japanese war, Japanese was drawn looking even more “Caucasian” than their “Caucasian” enemy, Russian.
A lot of Asia-raised Asian think that standard of beauty is universal. Well, it is becoming more global because standards kept merging together, yet heavily weighted on Eurocentric part of it due to economic reason and cultural imperialism.
Many Asian may not think that they are doing the double eyelid surgery to look more “Caucasian”. (certainly, it is surgeons’ protocol and ethic not to make one look “exactly” like another race, such a statement can be found in the Board Aesthetic Surgeon and Medicine.) However, average Asian JUST want to look like their “Asian celebrities”. But if you talk to many Asian celebrities, especially the women, many of them do have a “white-envy” idea.
Moreover, if we take a look at: Percentage of how many Asian can fit in to the current Asian beauty standard without any surgery VS Percentage of how many Whites can fit in the current European or North American standards without any surgeries
You’ll find that it’s much harder for Asians to reach their current standard.
Another interesting fact, because current Asian standard of beauty was based upon European feature (such a change started in Meiji period), it evolve over time, and it evolve in other parts of East Asia when it got out of Japan. The values, cultures and logics require of becoming “civilized” at a time, all prepared the entire population to appreciate and look up to anything western. Generally speaking, a white person can fit in the current Asian standard of beauty easier than the local Asian. Because the roots of current Asian standard of beauty was based upon older European standard with an Asian interpretation.
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I don’t know why asains want to look more “white”.
most people I know that are white want to look or live like asains.
tons of anime, manga fans.some girls feel less pretty if they don’t look asain.
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i am asian, i am 26 . i get fat eyes from my mother. I decided to do surgery soon. I actually hate surgery and i love natural .But my skin overhang from eyelids and force my eyeslashed curve into eyes. After my mother got eyelide surgery and result is good. I decided to do it sldo.
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@ Brianna
anime and manga images are heavily “white based”
they are all ‘eurasian’, vary from different angles- (different drawing same character) and look mostly white. Asian fans pass it off as culturally asian and-so a depiction of themselves but it’s, not… period.
This coming from a ‘Black-girl’.
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@ Colorl O’ Luv
That pic you post is of a very old man- his skin is sagging (not the same effect)
and children of ‘white’ descent or any descent have yet to develop their eyes and it can vary >> across the broad.
We all live in a place were, mostly likely “whites” have developed The best image of themselves-ONLY and is a very poor environment for All Minorities.
Don’t try to make like everything is and the like, as if we were all in the same boat. It’s not PC its a kind of way of ignoring things and it makes life difficult for the “rest of us”.
What is happening here with these women is Not OK but Unfortunately-can not be changed. We all need a certain way to position ourselves in society and feel comfortable. (this is just an exaggerated example).
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@ Everybody Here now
stop picking at little things like “not everybody, is like this-or-that”.Or… We ALL change ourselves….. you missing the point, and i wouldn’t waste my little bit of time if i did not mean this.
What is happening here with these women is {Not-OK} but Unfortunately- can’t be changed. We all need a certain way to position ourselves in society and feel comfortable. (this is just an exaggerated example).
The ideals we live with, social, politcitical, Beauty, etc.. are not nessicrely made to be mindful of everybody.
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P.S. I hope this thread is not dead yet. I would like a response.
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@ Brianna
Only a young, pretty, and smart ‘black girl’. Not hating. Period.
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@ A
The Ideals you have may not always be whats best for you… but you still have them. hence Asian-Eyelid surgery.
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@ Maemay
Quote: But they are both creepy in the way in which someone told you something that occurs naturally in your race is WRONG and you go in change it.
The Ideals you have may not always be whats best for you… but you still have them. hence Eyelid surgery.
We all live in a place were, mostly likely “whites” have developed The best image of themselves.
If you don’t have something special to fall back on, you want, or may need to change.
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“By adding the fold it makes the eyes look bigger, rounder and more like the eyes of a white person.”
Uhhm, I’m asian (chinese) and I was born with double eyelids. I find it kind of sad how people think that just because an asian decides to have the double eyelid surgery means that they want to look white.
Maybe some asians just want big eyes. And it’s not like all white people have big, round eyes. They can have small eyes and still have double eyelids, y’know? So you can’t say that asians who want bigger eyes wanna be white.
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Double eyelids doesn’t equal big eyes. some just want big eyes; but others want that as well as an other ‘type’ of assortment of features. Sometimes far from what they originally looked like. It deosn’t have to by white looking but way diffrent.
The ideals we live with, social, politcitical, Beauty, etc.. are not nessicrely made to be mindful of everybody.
Even if they are not necesarily trying to look white, the ideal trying to be met takes exteme measures. so many people shouldn’t feel the need to change in that way(exteme).
(It may not my place to say it but thats how I feel; please don’t blahme).
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hmm. i’m chinese and i was born with double eyelids. or at least it looks that way because i have a crease. but it doesn’t make me look any whiter.
i agree with leigh204 — many of the people getting the surgery are probably not trying to look more white. i do think the idea of the surgery is a little weird, but only as weird as lip plumping or a nose job, like a lot of white people would do. and when white people get their lips plumped, it isn’t because they want to have thicker lips like most asians and blacks, it’s because they want to conform to society’s idea of beauty.
it’s the same with the people who want this surgery. maybe they ARE trying to look less asian, but the point is that the surgery makes your eyes look BIGGER AND ROUNDER which is what people think is beautiful today. this isn’t really a matter of race or self-hate, and it isn’t racism not to like the way your eyes look. what IS racist is to assume that the asians who get this surgery are vain or hate themselves for being asian. maybe they just want their eyes to look bigger to stand out, or maybe they want their eyelashes to point outwards. believe me, even though i’ve got the crease, my eyelashes point down and you can barely see them. curling them doesn’t even help, and it sucks.
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There are patients who After an Asian double eyelid surgery, some patients complain that the results are not really what they are expecting. Some complain that the folds are rather small or the eyelids are still asymmetrical. This leads them to go back to their surgeons to ask for a revision.
And sometimes, this is the most depressing PART.
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@ dranhnsupkim:
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Abagond, I made a boo boo. I inadvertently blockquoted my comment.
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I love asian people eye folds it makes them look more exotic. Asian women are prettier with their natural eyes IMO. Always love yourself for who you are but it’s their choice in the end so we must respect that.
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Dear Enlightened
Epicanthic eyelids are no more exotic than say, natural afro-textured hair or blue eyes. Millions of Americans can be found with each.
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[…] Asian Double Eyelid Surgery […]
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Fine way of describing, and good paragraph
to obtain information regarding my presentation topic, which
i am going to present in academy.
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I know that sometimes this is done because a lot of image problems come when especially the girls can’t get a boy. It doesn’t help that on TV in Japan at least they have Busai Talento (Ugly talent) and Kuwaii Talento (Cute talent). Which every year at least 4 or 5 times they get rated on if the public thinks they can get married. Sometimes having to go out to the public and find a guy who would take them on date. To hear the answers some of these guys give is heartbreaking and self confidence destroying.
Then to watching teen the girls get the surgery, lighten the skin, and act young for the sake of being cute.
I heard there was a way to laser out the browns of the eyes to have them permanently blue, some of my students were asking me for information on it. I felt sick.
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I knew a young man who was hated his features and wanted this procedure done. He even would wear blue contact lenses. I didn’t think that such a thing could even be done. This was many years ago when I knew this young man. But he was serious about his self loathing. I just thought self hate happened to black people, but it’s other ethnicities as well.
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I suspect all people, even whites, go through some level of self-loathing. They even feel compelled to change things about themselves.
Multiracial people almost always go through some self-loathing.
In fact, it is probable that the “At least I am not black” mantra was used by some whites to help mitigate their self-loathing.
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@ leigh204
girl, don’t let them take your beauty! your eyes are fine the way God made them. I am against ppl wanting to “change” their natural way of looking; ie blacks wearing weaves, folks wearing blonde hair that is not culturally correct, lightening skin when one is naturally dark.
ACCEPT OURSELVES THE WAY GOD MADE US~
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The people in the comments are moronic (especially Mira).
Click to access 05mbdrwalterking.pdf
1. The very idea that traits like light skin, thin noses, large eyes, even light hair are “White” features is a Western fallacy that stems from ignorance of biology and bias. All of these features were already seen as attractive in East Asia (and almost all other cultures) for thousands of years (it is NOT a result of Westernization), and many people in nearly every nationality naturally has this features. It is irrational to call non-whites with these features “White-looking” (especially when many whites themselves don’t have them).
2. Nobody outside of the Western World consider these features as “White”, only Westerners (including non-white westerns like Black Americans) have this false belief. This explains why many Asian Americans reject plastic surgery (but nobody in East Asia itself does). If anyone has any “internalized racism”, its the idiots who over-exaggerated the influence of the west, the people who deny the existence of the objective, (semi)universal beauty standard, that are self-hating.
3. This false belief also comes from ignorance of how plastic surgery actually works. Plastic surgery can’t give a feature that your racial phenotype doesn’t naturally produce (which shows more proof that race is not a social construct), trying to do so will always end in physical disaster.The fact that East Asians (and most others) can successfully get these traits is proof that there is nothing “White” about them at all.
4. White people (and colored westerners) tend hold non-whites under a racist, bias, scientifically false double standard when it comes to appearance. They tend confuse “attractive” with “white” and “ugly” with “the other”, so they then (wrongfully) accuse non-whites of having and/or wanting these traits as wanting to be “white”. Facial surgery is actually most common with White Westerners, but nobody in the west ever accuses Whites of wanting to look like another race.
5. Beauty is NOT a social construct. Society DOES NOT determine what is attractive, our hormones and evolutionary factors do (like neoteny). Also, even though not everyone in a group naturally has large eyes, light skin, thin nose, etc, the attraction to these features is itself natural and instinctive. This shows that there’s nothing “unnatural” about getting surgery. Humans beings have been artificially changing their bodies in the name of beauty since the dawn of man.
6. What mainly determines races apart is not the sizes but the shapes of features. If you pay close attention, you’d notice that most East Asians that do the surgery still have slanted and/or almond shaped eyes (only bigger, more expressive & youthful), and the ones that don’t were never born with them in the first place. There is NO attempt at looking “white” at all. Also, people who get surgery actually tend to have higher self-esteem than those who are against it.
7. One last point, we DO NOT live in a Euro-centric world. Westernization & Globalization has failed to homogenize humanity, if anything it amplified the differences between us. Human nature makes it impossible as all species eventually diversify and spit apart overtime. We will never be culturally one. All races, ethnics and cultures are mostly autonomous, primary centered on themselves (with only relative degrees of importing & exporting influences). When cultures do adopt something foreign, they always change it to agree with local taste & values. This process is called Cultural Appropriation.
Social Constructivism is a stupid, anti-science, and extremely misleading way of looking at the world. It causes Westerners of all races to project themselves and their bias fallacies onto the rest of the world, leading them to create false myths about it. Notice how it is only Western people who believe that race, gender & beauty are “socially constructed”, where as all other parts of the world see these things as naturally real & objective. Why is it only Western Civilization that insist on seeing everything in terms of culture/environment when science itself suggest all human behavior is biologically influenced (& in a few cases even determined)? Why is only Western Civilization in denial of Human Nature?
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@ keithn83
I am curious on why it is always the individuals that come in claiming everyone else is “moronic” that in turn make some of the most asinine comments possible?
“(which shows more proof that race is not a social construct)”
For starters a social construct is simply an idea developed by society. Here is an article that better counters you idea that race is not a social construct. http://aafeminist.wordpress.com/2014/02/27/race-is-a-social-construct/
Beauty is a social construct in that it plants the idea of what should be universally beautiful compared to what is simply beautiful. Of course beauty is in the eye of the beholder but one set of standards is pushed over others.
As to the remainder of what you said, I do not have enough information to respond at the moment but interesting that you dismiss 3 Asian commenters that made a statement on this very post.
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@ keithn83
In response to the source you posted it fails the credibility test because it is a blog and not actual historic information. Posting pictures of the times is not proof nor is posting one poem from years ago.
This light skin you speak of is more like make-up.
http://www.cosmeticsinfo.org/Ancient-history-cosmetics
In certain customs the darker the skin you had it was perceived that you were of working class. Lighter skin was presumed to be someone of high class and those of high class stayed indoors and were not in the sun getting dark. I have found no sources that state that “thin noses, large eyes, even light hair” was something already considered attractive in east Asia for thousands of years. If you care to share that source then by all means do so, but until then I will take this as your opinion.
The Chinese in particular related the white complexion with power. The Japanese used this same make-up for courtesans and later the geisha started to use it.
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I remember reading Les Moonves’s wife Julie Chen when she was aspiring to be an anchor woman, underwent this procedure to be able to work. She said her boss told her that the audience would not be able to identify with her. Dang, in order to be acceptable one must alter the features the creator gave them.
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Contact lenses, and now this eye surgery just to assimilate, and be accepted.
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Or maybe they just prefer the way it looks. I have had a rhinoplasty, check and chin implants.
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In the case of double eyelid surgery it comes to how society as a whole looks for those who don’t. Without many girls in Japan are said to look plain and it does become harder to get a boyfriend. If the trend ever stops then just like the Chinese women who had their foot bond at birth, when the trend was over it was almost impossible for them to get married. There are those who get the leg extenders and that is painful as all. There is also a laser surgery out there to burn out the brown in ones eyes to get permanent blue eyes. Fashion is hard on women.
“thin noses, large eyes, even light hair” in most Asian countries this would not have been attractive. Thin people in general were thought to have bad dispositions. Large eyes would have been thought extremely ugly because it would have looked foreign, along with light hair.
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As an occasional consumer of the eyelid glues, even though I have a crease but just to enhance it, I would like to say that it’s less common in Asian Americans because many of them do not have access to products and procedures geared toward their ethnicity. ‘White washed’ kids sometimes didn’t even know the standards of beauty in Asia until recently with the internet.
The low amount of residential segregation leads to Asian girls being stranded in all-white suburbs, without the ability to find eyelid tape. Imagine being a Black woman with very little access to Black hair salons or products.
Being that a majority of Chinese, and many Koreans have double eyelids naturally, I do not think it would have been considered ugly. Especially when some ancient Chinese poems talk about women with large eyes being the standard of beauty.
No offense, but Chinese stereotypes of Europeans are usually a very long nose and a craggy brow line, as well as red hair. Large eyes, are not seen as a foreign trait.
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I really cannot believe this surgery is a traditional thing. It must have been something started in the 20th century only. Is there a source on how and when it was developed and promoted?
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This is a first. I’ve never heard of a white guy undergoing surgery to achieve single eyelids.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2645950/I-fun-bein-Korean-Blonde-Brazilian-man-undergoes-extraordinary-surgery-achieve-convincing-Oriental-look.html
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^ Interesting. Still, I think it does not look that natural. He looks more like a Eurasian Cosplay character, like those Korean boys who try to make themselves more white looking.
I am just imagining. Koreans who die their hair blond will have black roots. He will have the reverse.
In Korea, you can get cheap cosmetic surgery for just about anything, it seems.
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Omigosh! Please fast forward to 2:25 when he finally reveals his new look. Yikes!
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^ The guy above calls himself Xiahn Nishi. That’s not even a remotely Korean name.
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Nowadays, white people tell me my eyes are beautiful. However, I remember when I was a kid, my white classmates poked fun of my eyes which made me feel ugly. Funny how that works, huh?
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Hmm. The before and after pics of Julie Chen remind me of Connie Chung. I have always wondered if Connie had eyelid surgery or not. When she was younger, her eyes looked a lot smaller compared to now.
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I meant her eyes were single lidded back then. In the after pic, there is a visible crease.
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Haha! I KNEW you were going to post that. Yes, I’m aware she married Maury Povich.
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I found two articles regarding the controversies surrounding Asian double eyelid surgeries. Please bear with me. They’re quite long.
Source: http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2014/11/17/363841262/is-beauty-in-the-eye-lid-of-the-beholder?sc=17&f=3
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Source: http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2014/11/18/364670361/the-many-stories-behind-the-double-eyelid-surgery
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I’m curious as to your thoughts. Does this Asian woman look “white” to you now that she had eyelid surgery? To me, she still looks Asian. I know Asians who have her eyes naturally.
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I’ve read articles where people in the Asian-American community say the single eyelid represents the “peasant” look and the double eyelids represent the “western” look. In many ways, a Western mentality can be very toxic to Asian and Black people.
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