Note: What follows is my post “Is Africa backwards?” written for Black America to get a sense of how bad it was. My own observations follow:
Disclaimer: I have never set foot in a black neighbourhood, much less lived in one. Those who have please be gentle and patient! This is merely me trying to make sense of what is knowable from white, middle-class suburbia:
Most of Black America is backward compared to the rest of the country, but it is nowhere near as bad as most White Americans seem to think.
For example, if you take a wrong turn in the city you might see this:
On television you see stuff like this:
That is from Nelly’s “Tip Drill” (2003), a hip hop video produced by blacks.
But then there is also this:
That is from the “The Cosby Show” (1984-1992), also produced by blacks.
So what can you do? Is there any quick and dirty way to tell how well off or bad off Black America is?
One common measure is income, how much money people make. But it does not take the cost of living into account. Many blacks live in the South where the cost of living is lower. Also drug dealers, prostitutes and prisoners do not have reportable incomes. Meanwhile deadbeat fathers and welfare queens have reason to lie about theirs.
Much better is life expectancy:
- It is universal – everyone dies.
- Life is far more precious than money.
- Most of the things that make life bad tend to shorten it too, like drugs, violence, poverty and disease.
- It is easy to compare to times past.
As it turns out, the life expectancy at birth for blacks is 71 while for whites it is 78.
So by that measure Black America is backward.
But just how bad off is it? Look at white life expectancy through the years:
- 1900: 49.7
- 1910: 51.9
- 1920: 57.4
- 1930: 60.9
- 1940: 65.1
- 1950: 69.2
- 1960: 70.9
- 1970: 71.7
- 1980: 74.5
- 1990: 76.1
- 2000: 77.4
- 2004: 78.3
So Black America is where White America was in the 1960s. Not great, yes, but we are not talking the 1800s or even the 1930s.
Observations: Now I see how the first sentence after the disclaimer falls on you like a ton of bricks.
If I wrote a post like this I would not have used the word “backward” nor would I have made it seem like blacks were somehow back in time compared to whites, back “in the 1960s”. Both are strange and misleading. Further, I would have said something about the causes and not just leave it hanging like that. I would have made a bigger deal about how 40 million blacks cannot be reduced to a single number.
If I saw this on a white blog I would not have liked “backward”, “in the 1960s”, “welfare queens” and so on. But I would have been surprised by the disclaimer and the decision to avoid television and income as a guide to “what blacks are like”.
In any case, the difference in life expectancy does point to a serious issue, regardless of how the message was delivered.
See also:
And if ya can answer that one, is Back America blackward?
8D
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I am multi-tasking at the moment, but as I briefly read it.
I thought since Blacks do not own or control America – and not even the music industry, which many believe they do.
Then the ‘context’ of this post is not quite ‘spot on’
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I do not know if “Tip Drill” is black-produced, but most whites seem to believe that all hip hop videos are black-produced so I wrote it that way.
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I finally understand what drew me to this blog in the first place. Honest, thorough self examination. A willingness to understand and a fearlessness in naming whatever beast lies within us and facing it. And of course, thorough research. I humbly apologise for coming across as abrasive.
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Interesting note about demographics: 53% of Blacks live in the South (which has a lower cost of living as you noted), but 50% of Blacks are middle class. Then again, definitions of middle class (by yearly income) can range anywhere from $28,000 to $128,000, so I don’t think that’s a very concrete concept.
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I finally understand what drew me to this blog in the first place. Honest, thorough self examination. A willingness to understand and a fearlessness in naming whatever beast lies within us and facing it. And of course, thorough research. I humbly apologise for coming across as abrasive.
Nods. Right on all counts.
But don’t apologize for being abrasive. Abagond certainly doesn’t! 😀
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@Jasmin
And here’s something for people who think that Civil Rights had a massive impact on voting patterns.
53% of blacks live in the South but southern states almost universally vote red.
Jim Crow just changed his clothes, folks.
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Abagond I know I am off the topic but can you write about
indigenous nudity, and how it is okay to show the naked bodies of african women and children on television but not the naked bodies of white women. These african people are being dehumanized.
I asked this question to some white folks, but they say it is their culture. But most people in Africa dont go around walking naked like most people in america dont, but when it comes to showing certain tribes versus showing some nudist colonies, a network (like travel, national geographic, and discovery) will censor the white bodies of nudist in america but will not do the same to african people.
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The problem with posts like this is the fact there’s no universal way to measure what’s “backward” exactly. What does it mean? My idea of backwardness might not be yours.
The problem is, backwardness is subjective, and with the current power imbalance in America (and world) someone’s idea of backwardness would win. Which still doesn’t mean it’s objective.
It is a good post if you wanted to do it for yourself, Abagond, to see if the previous one sounded offensive. But still it doesn’t answer the question.
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Thad,
It’s so different (culturally), that I can’t even begin to relate to Black folks down there on many levels. And I say this as someone who’s grandparents moved North from Mississippi in the 50s.
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@ Not a hater
That’s a no win proposition.
If you show the natives nude, as you would encounter them in their own culture, then you will be accused of wantonly displaying Black nudity, while covering and protecting the White body.
If you draw clothes or blur out the native’s nudity, then you will be accused of imposing your own moral sensibilities onto another culture—in effect, creating an obscenity of another people’s innocence.
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My mother is Black American and my father is Jamaican, Dominican and Puerto Rican. My mom’s family is well to-do and me and my siblings will inherit a small inheritance when we turn 25. Everyone on her side of the family makes over $100,000 and has at least a Master’s degree. Everyone is in business, the medical field or some type of lawyer.My mother makes the least money out her family she choose to be an artist and a teacher.
My mom’s family are all Black Americans. They can trace there ancestors from Florida Seminole Native Americans, Freed Creole Blacks and French fur traders. My dad’s family are mixed raced Caribbean Hispanics who came over during the 1950s, I will be the second one on that side of the family earing a college degree.
I never been in poverty; I never knew what food stamps and welfare was until I was a teenager. My family raised me to speak proper English and obtain only As. I was always the only Black kid in AP courses, the only black girl wearing Uggs and LL Bean and the only Black or Latina girl who loves lacrosse. I went to school in the DC area and it’s very diverse in terms are tax brackets, race, and religion.
I noticed, other Black Americans would always make fun of me, call me an “oreo” and accuse me of “acting white”. It always pissed me off how they would do this, act ghetto and embarrassing. I hate how some Black Americans disregard education and they perceive other Black Americans who want to step out of the box as “oreos” or “sellouts”. Sometimes I really don’t like to hang out with Black Americans because I really don’t have anything in common with them other than skin color.
Most of my Black friends have been from the Caribbean and Africa. I’ve gotten along better with Africans and Caribbeans; many of them are just like me and they never treat me as if I was a weirdo. Sometimes I wish I wasn’t part Black American;Black Americans have no culture, tribes, language, traditions, or history to call their own. I feel more in touch with my Caribbean/Latino heritage even though I was raised as a Black American.
Black Americans are treated with disdain in this world and are considered a joke. I hate being associated with sagging pants, Ebonics, and ghettoness. Not all Black Americans are like this but so many Black Americans act out stereotypes everyday and make it hard for all of us.
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There are African-Amerians families who are much like you also.
http://lawrenceotisgraham.com/content/our_kind_of_people.asp
It’s nice to hear of this kind of diversity of background within the African American culture, so keep being you…
But don’t believe the hype.
Remember that your stereotypes of Black America or no less ignorant or hurtful than anyone else’s.
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Ms Dominican Republic,
I just like you to know that you mom’s family is not unique. There are many American Black who are third and forth generation college graduates. Some have money, some may have average income. I had a math teacher who was one of nine children who had lived in Appalachia growing up. Every one of her siblings went to college and I am sure that most of her nieces and nephews have too.
I would bet that your mothers friends have the same background as she, but they probably still live in a neighborhood that has been traditionally middle or upper middle class Black that is probably not in a suburb.
There are many stable Black families with the average dysfunction as anyone else. As there are many hardworking Black people working or middle class. I would be willing to bet that if you were at any bus or Metro stop at 5:30 in the morning you would see many Black folk on their way to work. Do you notice Black folk when you go thru security at an airport or the ground crews, occasionally you may see a Black airline pilot. Do you not see Black folk doing anything but hanging out, especially in DC.
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@ Ms. Dominican Republic
Firstly, you must not get out much if you think your family is unique in Black America. Second, you were obviously not associated with Jack & Jill, because if you had been you would be acquainted with tons of affluent Black families. And that also makes me wonder how truthful you are being about your families affluence.
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King,
I just read that book, and I found it pretty interesting. Plus they had a section dedicated to my home city, so it was cool to read about some very familiar places, including where my mom grew up. My only critique was that Graham focused too much on older (70s plus) people. I think interviewing their children (meaning people born after 1950) would’ve been a bit more relevant.
I was in AP and Honors classes starting in first grade (lol, they had Honors Math for 7-year-olds!), and I’ve never been the only Black kid, except for once in high school in Honors Biology, when I was one of two. But I figured that was because I was in Band and we had a special schedule–once I quit Band I had classes at regular times and there were plenty of Black kids in the running for “smartest kid in school”.
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Maybe I’m missing something here, but I don’t see what’s “backwards” about Nelly or his “Tip Drill” video. If you aren’t blinded by prejudices and are as open-minded as you claim, the whole premise of the “Tip Drill” song/video is an ode to what’s referred to as a “tip drill”, which is basically the equivalent of dryhumping. That’s it. Plenty of songs in different genres with the subject of similar material, but the “issue” is raised only when undertaken by an black, “urban” artist.
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I agree All Blacks Are The Same Everywhere. We’ve all been colonized.
This post is really off-putting to me and I’m not sure what I could contribute as a commenter. It’s probably because I’ve lived in a black neighborhood all my life, and have spent a lot of time around poor and working-class black people. This post seems very shallow to me. Not mean-spirited, but really not acknowledging the depth of experience that is Black America, regardless of income level.
The Africa posts were much better in my opinion.
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I don’t get this: why black americans can’t be just americans? Like the many whites in South Africa today. And I mean the younger generations. If you ask them are they africans, they answer yes. They just happen to be white. They don’t see any contradiction in that. They know what their parents have done, about the apartheid period but they are africans. They have been born in Africa, grew up in Africa and they like to be africans.
Ok. Once again, I understand the history of the whole black vs. white thing, how whites had slaves etc. but still I don’t get it. Why anybody from let’s say Detroit would claim to be african unless he/she is from Africa/from african nation/tribe etc?
I got couple black friends from US and they don’t want to be african-american, new afrikan etc. They think it’s all bogus. Actually one of them told me in very frank terms, when I tried to figure out where this whole thing comes from, that he is an american and very proud to be from South Side Chicago. So I didn’t push the subject with him any further.
I understand the need for cultural roots, the whole idea of being from somewhere, but the way I see it, black americans are actually the major force behind american culture. If you start to figure how much black americans have been molding the american culuture and how much it is their product, you have to take a bow.
Almost all the modern music is based on the black roots. And this goes from high culture to pop. It’s all based on black american tradition. Litterature, never mind who tells you something else, is based very much on the story telling traditions of the black americans. From Mark Twain days up till now. Modern american litterature is a product of european tradition mixed with originally black story telling. Language is hugely influenced by the black americans even today. Films, music, sport culture, many culinary traditions etcetcetc. The list goes on and on and on.
From my humble perspective, I see black americans influencing to the whole culture, thus creating an american culture. It is one thing that white establishment have been trying to keep this as a secret of some sorts, and succesfully in most cases I think, but to go to Africa to find ones own culture from there… I don’t know.
I don’t know why black americans could not recognize this. Why they feel that the american culture is not theirs when it is actually very much their own? Maybe they should claim it as their own, show everybody how much they have been behind it in the past and how much they are creating it at present times.
Ok, the media takes the ideas from blacks and white washes them for the whote audience, this was the way from Elvis up till recent times. But now, in this century? I mean, Ice Cube is making hugely successfull family movies for all audiences! This is Ice Cube, for godssake! NWA, you know, the one and only Ice Cube with lyrics like: “today was a good day, I didn’t have to use my AK”. And whites flock in droves to see his latest family comedy in nearest cineplex!! For me that is America too.
Would people go to see a family comedy by a black man who once said “Fuck the Police” in England or in Germany? I doubt it.
Black american man is the president, after all. It is your country. Just take it.
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I don’t get this: why black americans can’t be just americans?
The way I see it, black Americans are both “just” Americans and black Americans. You can’t forget about any of these because both are important for their identity.
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True. They are both black AND americans.
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Not a hater said:
“Abagond I know I am off the topic but can you write about indigenous nudity, and how it is okay to show the naked bodies of African women and children on television but not the naked bodies of white women.”
An excellent suggestion, something that has bugged me since at least age nine. I believe the same thing is at work in showing dead bodies too.
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Yes, that is a good suggestion. On the other hand, you must not forget that “white” might be a questionable term here, since there are whites whose naked or dead bodies are not considered offensive. (In which case one must wonder whether these are not considered truly white or maybe there was another process at work).
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Sam,
I am not sure when it started, but I think around the end of the major Civil Rights movements whites started associating with their ethnic background. You started to hear the terms Italian- American, Irish-American, Polish-American, etc. During the resurgence of the Pan-African movement shortly afterward, then emerged the term African or Afro-American.
I don’t use the term myself, because I felt its connotation denoted someone that had immigrated to the US. I feel American and most of ancestors had been here long enough for me to know mostly where I came from and to have a history on this soil.
I do agree that America is very much a product of African culture, even as much as it was macerated. During slavery and even during Jim Crow every middle and upper class white child was raise by a Black person. That aristocratic southern accent didn’t develop from the King’s English or from the Scotch-Irish.
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Good points Hathor. Thanks for the clarification.
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“Abagond I know I am off the topic but can you write about
indigenous nudity, and how it is okay to show the naked bodies of african women and children on television but not the naked bodies of white women.”
You’ll also notice that they’ll only show like unattractive, nude black women?? Like with her mouth hanging open, drooping, wrinkled breast, flies running around. They’ll never put an attractive, nude african woman on National Geographic?? I wonder why that is…Why is it okay to only show us as unappealing?? But i’ll save the rest of the commentary for when that post comes up.
———————————————————
“Now I see how the first sentence after the disclaimer falls on you like a ton of bricks.”
Response to abagond’s insensitivity,
in terms of the last post I found your wording to be a bit off, but I thought i got the point you were trying to make in the other post. I think sometimes, abagond, you make comments in your post, but I don’t think you intend to be offensive. I remember in one of your letters to your wife, you made some insensitive comments and then in another post you stated there was some truth in the fact that bw looked like monkies. I know you dont mean to be offensive, but comments like that do put people off and I can understand why people did feel the opening comment in the other post was offensive. I can understand that. But,
its good though that you made this post in response and were able to see how the wording came off from your perspective as a black american.
The bottom line is blacks have been forced into “backwardness,” due to colonialism and racism. Social inequality, economic inequality and racism have contributed to our “backwardness.”
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“Almost all the modern music is based on the black roots. And this goes from high culture to pop. It’s all based on black american tradition. Litterature, never mind who tells you something else, is based very much on the story telling traditions of the black americans.”
Alot of black american culture, which became american culture had its roots in west africa though, don’t forget.
I agree black americans are just that black and american. The reason we can’t just be american is largely due to racism. “America” has never allowed us to be ‘just american’ we’ve always been black first and american second. Although I will never claim myself, as african, because I was born in the US, as were my recent ancestors, I know that I am african-descended. I know that my african-blood and my phenotype are going to deteremine how people view me. When I leave the US, people don’t know I’m American and they will not assume that I’m american, unless I open my mouth and tell them. At first glance, people think ‘black,’ or ‘african.’ That is why we are black americans and not just simply americans.
Although, I know I’m american and culturally I have more in common with america, when it comes to being black and experiencing racism, 9/10 times i can ALWAY relate better with other african-descended people. Whether they were born in Ghana, Kenya, Benin, Jamaica, or the US, I can relate to them better than I ever could with white americans when it comes to these issues.
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“Maybe I’m missing something here, but I don’t see what’s “backwards” about Nelly or his “Tip Drill” video. If you aren’t blinded by prejudices and are as open-minded as you claim, the whole premise of the “Tip Drill” song/video is an ode to what’s referred to as a “tip drill”, which is basically the equivalent of dryhumping. That’s it. Plenty of songs in different genres with the subject of similar material, but the “issue” is raised only when undertaken by an black, “urban” artist.”
Response, the issue is that it reduces black women and black men to mere bodies and commodities. Swiping a credit card down a woman’s butt is degrading to me. you’re reducing her to a commodity, something to be bought, which is basically like being a slave. Then it portrays bm as over-sexual and uncontrollable sexual appetities.
I’m all for sexual expression and I support cultural variations pertaining to sexual expression, but Tip Drill is just degrading.
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“I noticed, other Black Americans would always make fun of me, call me an “oreo” and accuse me of “acting white”. It always pissed me off how they would do this, act ghetto and embarrassing. I hate how some Black Americans disregard education and they perceive other Black Americans who want to step out of the box as “oreos” or “sellouts”. Sometimes I really don’t like to hang out with Black Americans because I really don’t have anything in common with them other than skin color. “
I grew up similar to you, my mother is lawyer and father is a doctor. Only, my experiences with other blacks have been overwhelming positive. Black americans, nigerians, jamaicans, they’ve mostly been positive. I was only called “acting white,” once in my whole life by a black american. All the other times that I’ve been called a ‘white woman in a black woman’s body,’ and not really a black woman by whites more than anybody.
I also participated in Jack and Jill and saw many blacks like myself. There are middle-class blacks out there, you just need to go to the right places.
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Ok Peanut. I understand that. I also know that racism has been a huge obstacle in US and I guess still is in many places and in many ways over there. I hope things will change because it is wayyyy late already.
From my perspective I don’t make these separations. Americans are just americans, black, white, brown or what ever. The common nominator for me is that they come from there. I know it is easy for me say this.
Which brings me to my next question: why in so many ways the US is obsessed about the race? I mean these official papers and records which demand the following information: caucasian, black, hispanic etc. Why?
Who cares what is your supposed ethnic backround if you want a driving license? Who cares about your skin color when you go to school? I just don’t get it. I mean, even South Africa abandoned official racecrap. Why the US still sticks with it?
And what I really don’t understand is that this is for US citizens. What I might be? Finnish-carelian-tavastian-capitalregionish-fenno ugric-european?
And the term “caucasian”? I wonder if the guys who came up with the term ever visited in Caucasus. Tsetshens, adzerbaidzanis, armenians, georgians and ossetians are not blonde fair skinned people. They are dark, brown eyed, black haired, and very much body haired people, men that is.
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@Hathor
I am not sure when it started, but I think around the end of the major Civil Rights movements whites started associating with their ethnic background. You started to hear the terms Italian- American, Irish-American, Polish-American, etc. During the resurgence of the Pan-African movement shortly afterward, then emerged the term African or Afro-American.
Sorry, Hathor. Ethnic identity has been a big point among U.S. whites since the late 19th century, at least. American industry was largely organized along ethnic lines.
During slavery and even during Jim Crow every middle and upper class white child was raise by a Black person.
Except, of course, for the vast majority of whites who lived in the north.
Seriously, Hathor: this is your view of historical white America? That every upper class white American was southern? Sure, some northerners also had black maids. They were the vast minority, however.
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Peanut sez:
Swiping a credit card down a woman’s butt is degrading to me. you’re reducing her to a commodity, something to be bought, which is basically like being a slave.
I’m not sure about that symbology, Peanut. After all, you don’t pass a credit card through what you BUY, you pass a credit card through a machine controlled by the person who is taking your money. It seems to me that the comment there is that sex will always cost you and that women control access to sex.
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Sam sez:
And the term “caucasian”? I wonder if the guys who came up with the term ever visited in Caucasus. Tsetshens, adzerbaidzanis, armenians, georgians and ossetians are not blonde fair skinned people. They are dark, brown eyed, black haired, and very much body haired people, men that is.
There’s a REAL interesting story about the birth of the term “Caucasian” in Nell Painter’s new book on whiteness.
As you should know, the primary market for slaves in the Meditteranean before the Turkish seizure of Constantinople was the eastern Black Sea Basin where the – ta da! – Caucasus Mountains are. Some of the most renowned and beautiful male and female sex slaves came from that area. After the Turks took the region, Europeans were still obsessed with the “Georgian” female slaves from this region and the whole “odalisque” theme of painting arose in response to that fascination.
In the early 19th century (IIRC), one of the first racialist scientists attempting to categorize humanity according to types was also exceptionally fascinated with the whole “odalisque” motiff. His supposedly “perfect human skull” came from a young woman taken as a prisoner in a Russian military raid against the Turks in the Caucasus. The girl later died from syphilis in a Moscow brothel and that’s how this scientist got ahold of her skull.
So her skull thus came to represent the supposed epitome of human evolution and was labeled by this guy “the Caucasian type”.
The “white race” is thus named after a 19th century woman who was most probably a female sex slave.
Ironic, no?
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Very ironic indeed. Thanks for the story Thaddeus.
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@ Jazmin
“I just read that book, and I found it pretty interesting. Plus they had a section dedicated to my home city, so it was cool to read about some very familiar places, including where my mom grew up. My only critique was that Graham focused too much on older (70s plus) people. I think interviewing their children (meaning people born after 1950) would’ve been a bit more relevant.”
Cool. I read it about 3 years ago and found it to be a fascinating look at Black American upper class, colorism, and class exclusivity. I highly recommend it.
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King,
Wouldn’t it be interesting to have an updated version of the book come out now, with the Obamas in the White House? Neither of them are from the “old guard” elite, but they do represent the growing presence of “newbies” in the Black upper class.
I found it so interesting how some folks described the discouraging attitudes toward “marrying White”. There was a weird juxtaposition of emulating Whites (in terms of social position) while staunchly refusing to “become White” (by intermarrying). Seems like most people were very determined to be the best Black doctor/lawyer/accountant.
It’s Jasmin by the way, though the “z” gives it some flavor. 🙂
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Oops! Sorry about the Jazzmin!!
@ Jasmin
Yes, I agree. I’m thinking the emergence of Obama, and others, may signal a shift from the old guard, aristocratic families, to a new and more open Black elite power structure.
As to marrying Whites, what was also quite surprising was some of the obvious disdain felt towards White neighbors along the edges of the Black Hamptons. It seemed that at least some of the Black elites considered themselves to even be superior to some of the White elites. I’m not sure that they might have even consider marrying White as marrying down. However, if you recall, one of the girls in college that Graham was interested in meeting ONLY dated White guys!
I felt, Graham spent quite a bit of time, in the second half of the book, kissing up to most of the elite social groups in the Northeast U.S. and South, but I suppose, if he wanted access, that couldn’t be helped
All and all a fascinating book, however. Wouldn’t you agree?
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Thaddeus,
I thought I prefaced by saying in the south. My head got ahead of my hand, but many Black women did day’s work in the north. A lot more than you can imagine.
Sorry, Hathor. Ethnic identity has been a big point among U.S. whites since the late 19th century, at least. American industry was largely organized along ethnic lines.
I think I am a little older that you and I would be willing to bet that many of the books you have read have been printed since I was born. I did not say anything about organization along ethnic lines and was speaking of people self identifying as xxxx-American and those terms coming into the lexicon. The history may of spoke of the Irish doing such and such, but no one was referred to as an Irish American. It would be said that so an so is of Irish decent.
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Ahn.
But how many black women do you think I imagine were working as maids in the North in, say, 1900 Hathor? I’d say less than a million, wouldn’t you? Not a lot, compared to the 60 million or so white northerners of the time.
I think I am a little older that you and I would be willing to bet that many of the books you have read have been printed since I was born.
Thomas & Znaniecki’s The Polish Peasant in Europe and America for example? That would mean you’re now 90+ years old, Hathor. Is that the case?
But I get your point about “hyphenated Americans”. However, Margaret Mead talks about this in her book on “American culture” entitled …And Keep Your Powder Dry and that was published in the 1940s, so I still don’t think this is a upshoot of Civil Rights… Unless you’re talking about Civil Rights as a movement that properly begins in the 1920s and ’30s. In that case, you may have a point, but I’m not sure I see the connection.
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Thaddeus,
A few books maybe, I am speaking in common usage. I don’t remember it in any of the textbooks I used which were printed in the thirties and forties. I am 65. History ended at the end of WWII when I was a senior.
I was putting it in a time frame for Black folk, I do think Blacks started to use African-American because other ethnics groups had started to use the hyphenated terms. I do think they did so because there was so much emphasis on Civil Rights and Black and white. I think somewhat of a backlash, because so much focus seemed to be on Blacks. This is my observation, I don’t speak or really think as a sociologist.
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I do think they did so because there was so much emphasis on Civil Rights and Black and…
“They” means “ethnic groups”
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Are American Negroes backward? On various standards of measure, we certainly lag other groups. Sub-Saharan West Africans and Negroes living in the Caribbean also lag whites (and others). Negro underachievement follows similar patterns whether in Africa, the Caribbean or the Americas. Which tribe of Negro is the worst? Who knows? Who cares? It would be great if there were some black shining city on a hill somewhere in the world to which we blacks could point and say “Those Negroes are really doing it! We should emulate them!” If Lagos, Kinshasa, Kingston or Detroit were really places to be in terms of living standards and economic development, that would be great. Unfortunately, no such place exists. What does exist are pockets of relative black excellence, but even at that, it is debatable whether these pockets of excellence would even exist without white infrastructure and support. So, where does this leave us? Damned if I know. But I do know that black Americans would be much better off if an immigration moratorium were imposed immediately and all illegal immigrants were deported. That would be righteous! Too bad we don’t have a righteous American in the White House.
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King,
Good point–several parts of the book talked about the competition between Black and White neighbors, though I wish Graham had explored the contradiction between that tension and the colorism rampant in some circles. The chapter on passing was one of the best ones, imo, but Graham didn’t make an attempt to link that with any of the other themes of the book. It was still pretty good, overall.
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Ms. Dominican Republic
I wasn’t as well of as your family but we have some very similar experiences. I grew up mostly in a black & Hispanic Caribbean working class neighborhood and had plenty of friends who were from the African American middle class.
I was raised that the African diaspora has a rich culture and is no way backwards. The most common word that my Jamaican and Grenadian relatives would use when talking about African Americans is that they are “lost.” No sense of history, no idea what is African influenced culture, what is poverty and what is the effects of a 400 year mindf*ck courtesy of slavery and colonization and no idea how to fight all of the above. You have to remember that JA and Grenada are the sights of some of the most successful slave rebellions of the colonialist era so we see things a bit more differently.
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Yeah Jasmin,
I got the impression that there was a lot of dot connecting that Graham could have done, but decided not to do, because he is part of that clique and wants to remain in good and regular standing with them. If he pointed out too many contradictions, inconsistencies, and shortcomings, his next book might be entitled, “Regrets of a Bourgeois Exile.”
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Funny, I was going to post a comment on the “Is Africa backwards” post in this same vein; switching out Africans for black Americans. Because it seems many did not understand what was particularly wtong with it.
Ms. Dominican Republic,
“Most of my Black friends have been from the Caribbean and Africa. I’ve gotten along better with Africans and Caribbeans”
Same here.
“Black Americans have no culture, tribes, language, traditions, or history to call their own.”
That not true or fair. Black Americans have their separate culture and history. And I’m not talking about hip-hop culture either.
Danila,
“This post is really off-putting to me and I’m not sure what I could contribute as a commenter. It’s probably because I’ve lived in a black neighborhood all my life, and have spent a lot of time around poor and working-class black people. This post seems very shallow to me. Not mean-spirited, but really not acknowledging the depth of experience that is Black America, regardless of income level.
The Africa posts were much better in my opinion.”
In what way was the “Is Africa backwards” post better than this one? It’s exactly the same, in depth and style.
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*wrong
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“Disclaimer: I have never set foot in a black neighbourhood, much less lived in one. ”
REALLY?! I find it very strange and somewhat disturbing that someone who’d admit that tries to head a black-issues blog.
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Darth Paul, abagond has mentioned elsewhere that he has lived in black neighborhoods. He was only trying to mimic his writing on “Is Africa backwards?” post with that sentence.
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he he he he (like a little boy at the back of the school classroom with his hand over his mouth)….
No offence inteneded to Darth or anyone else,
he he he he – as I consider to laugh again.
Forgive me….
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@ Natasha: Thank you.
@ Darth Paul:
Nothing between the words “Disclaimer” and “Observations” presents what I know and think. Not all of it is even true. It is just what I think a white person from a middle-class suburb would write by using the same approach I used in “Is Africa backwards?” It is an exercise, a thought experiment, not something I stand behind.
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@RR
Are American Negroes backward?
I can think of nothing more “backward” than your constant attempts to revivicate 90-year-old and thoroughly debunked theories of biological race, flying full on in the face of everything we now know about human genetics.
You’re in no position to be judging other people’s backwardness, buddy.
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@ Ms. Dominican Republic
“My mother is Black American and my father is Jamaican, Dominican and Puerto Rican.”
I think your wish that you were not part Black American comes through clear enough in your choice of name. Perhaps you feel the same about your Puerto Rican and Jamaican heritage. I was instantly interested in your name choice because of the diverse background you come from. There seems to be an interesting rejection or preferred non-identification with everything that is not Dominican.
“Sometimes I wish I wasn’t part Black American; Black “Americans have no culture, tribes, language, traditions, or history to call their own. I feel more in touch with my Caribbean/Latino heritage even though I was raised as a Black American.”
This is very superficial. I think this is the larger point that abagond is trying to get at with these two posts. We should not superficially judge black cultures and spaces. We can not trust the image that the American media gives us of each other. And sometimes our own limited experience is not enough to give us a true picture.
Based on the American media, I would say that the Dominican Republic is dirt poor, full of prostitutes, and likes merengue. The End.
But I know that is not the full story. There are plenty of very wealthy and middle-class Dominicans. There is a thriving sex-tourism trade, but most Dominican women are not prostitutes. And merengue is only one of the musics of the Dominican Republic, but that it was lifted to its status as a national symbol during the Trujillo dictatorship. I could go on …
As other posters have alluded to, perhaps you were not fortunate to grow up amongst a more diverse population of African Americans. My sisters, most of my girlfriends, and myself are all African American, come from two parent households, and all have or are currently working towards professional degrees. I myself am in the last stages of completing a Ph.D. in Latin American history and my dissertation topic is race in the Dominican Republic, which is very complicated.
People who say that African Americans have no history or culture have no real historical memory that extends past 1980. African Americans have a set of food ways, a vast array of musical production that extends WAY past hip hop, hair culture, art, and a literary tradition. Moreover we have a long history in the United States that shaped much of how this nation understands and enacts race and accepted or rejected immigrant populations.
Moreover many ignore the ways in which African diaspora cultures are not just similiar but intricately linked. Simply tracing music production from the blues to ska to R&B to hip hop to reggae to reggaeton shows that people of African descent have traveled heavily in the U.S.-Caribbean world taking parts of what they learned with them and transforming it into something else where they settle. Some African independence struggles are CLEARLY linked to civil rights and human rights struggles fought by African Americans in the United States.
One other thing: When Caribbean Latinos say African Americans don’t have their own language I don’t get it. Mostly because Spanish is also a colonizer’s language. So what is the difference between speaking Spanish and speaking English? Spanish based creoles have largely disappeared, except for that one in Colombia. No Puerto Rican, Dominican, or Cuban is really walking around speaking an African or native American tongue. African Americans and Caribbean Latinos are all racially mixed. If Spanish is your’s, English is mine.
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King,
Good point. I think he’s still trying to make his way into the circle to an extent. Interestingly, I first saw the book while perusing the shelves at Barnes & Noble, and the one I picked up was a new edition with a foreword added, I believe. I skimmed it and Graham mentioned something about “controversy”–I wonder how writing the book affected his social life. (A negative effect would be ironic, given how he bent over backwards to kiss up. :-P)
Abagond,
A post of this book would be good, but I think you’d have to go by chapter since it’s so long. Plus, some of the middle gets boring with all of the name-dropping of old people. 🙂
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RR,
could you please stop referring to black people as “negroes?”
I really don’t think you’re black. You continue to insult black people, and you continue to use outdated terms like “negroes.”
Often people who use that term use it offensively.
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Yes, Black America is backwards. And not only backwards, but twisted and upside down. The hip/hop rap culture has destroyed the minds of many bp. I am still trying to figure out why bm today are still sagging their pants showing their dirty drawers. I am still trying to figure out why bw are upset that many videos today are not featuring them but are featuring non bw. You should be happy to not be shown in a degrading way. Let non bw take that spot. We’ve had it too long. I am still trying to figure out why bm think it’s cute to approach bw in an animalistic way as if bw are prey. Why not approach with a gentle manner and a smile? I am still trying to figure out why some bw think it is their rite of passage to black womanhood to have a baby out of wedlock and have baby daddy drama. I could go on and on but I won’t because complaining never got anyone anywhere so again, yes Black America is backwards. And not only backwards, but twisted and upside down!
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Mel, I cringe when I read/hear the word “negro” used in post-1970s contexts. I’m absolutely baffled by its recent resurrection as a supposedly neutral term.
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Just to comment this “Negro” term. Granted, I haven’t been in States for a while so I might be little out of touch, but when I was there these black guys I knew did not like too much this term.
Granted, they used sometimes the Other N term, but pointed to me: if YOU use this word, we gonna whup your ass. Which I believe they would have done had I used that.
So, in the year 2010 to see the term “Negro” here is really kind of confusing. I know that it was used wayyyy back, but still today? I’m here with Natasha. It looks little out of place to me.
I don’t know. Is it okay to use term “Negro” as a neutral word? It seems to hold certain connotations. But like I said, I’ve been away for a while so I really don’t know. I just wonder.
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@ Jasmin
Agreed. The beginning chapters of the book are particularly riveting, basically because they’re autobiographical. I found that it was still pretty interesting as he went into the elite organizations: Jack and Jill, AKA, Boule, and the like, but after a while, he gets into prominent families, and smaller organizations and at that point it gets slow.
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The hip/hop rap culture has destroyed the minds of many bp.
Oh, that dirty, dirty De La Soul… 😀
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King,
I felt like he was, in a sense, using parts of the book to placate the elite (maybe push himself further into the circle, since he’s never been all the way in). After all, not many others would give so much attention to the social-climbing stories of 80-year-olds. Even the most exclusive groups want some kind of attention–they want other people to know it exists and yet realize they can’t have a part of it.
The stickler in me was mildly irritated by the numerous typos, and the fact that it was so obvious the chapters were written out of order. I lost count of how many times he mentioned so-and-so being the president of X chapter and then mentioned the exact same information 3 pages later.
Maybe we can get a post on “the Black elite” if the book is too much?
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Shan, nice job of taking the Ghetto Culture and making it out to be ALL of Black America. I could give you a similar synopsis of White America from the perspective of a trailer park.
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Jasmin
“I lost count of how many times he mentioned so-and-so being the president of X chapter and then mentioned the exact same information 3 pages later.”
Lol! I thought he was just kissing up to so-and-so!!!
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I guess the problem is: why does hip-hop/ghetto culture seem to be swallowing up other historically black cultures? I’ve heard many older blacks bemoan the fact that more uplifting cultures are dwindling while hip-hop culture is growing amongst black youth.
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Now on to an on-topic post 🙂
When talking about the relative success (or failure) of Black America I tend to notice the (very American) tendency to “individualize” achievement (e.g., statements like, “I was the only Black kid who did X”, “All the other Black kids called me X”, etc.). These generalizations are almost always met with counter-examples–has anyone ever been in a conversation like this one and not had someone say, “Well I know plenty of Black people who did X”?
As one of those “smart Black kids” who grew up around plenty of other “smart Black kids” (i.e., we aren’t a rarity), it makes me wonder why people attribute their “uniqueness” to the negative characteristics of their surroundings, rather than to their poor choices in associates. It’s the same thing with people who talk about how “ghetto” their neighborhood is–doesn’t that show your poor judgment in choosing a bad neighborhood?
It’s more complex than that, but I always think it’s interesting how conversations on Blacks as a group tend to involve at least one Black person who feels the need to remind everyone of his/her struggles as “the only [insert positive trait] Black person in his/her corner of the universe”.
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Natasha,
I think the rising numbers of Blacks in the suburbs has fueled a cultural shift of sorts, in which many of the young fans of “music straight out of the ‘hood” wouldn’t know a hood if they tripped over it. So “thug life” can be just as much of a fantasy for Black youths as it is for White ones.
I think some people can take in the messages without giving them weight–I know plenty of high-achieving Black people who love some of the most vulgar songs (can you tell I’m not a rap fan 😛 To be fair, I tend to speak for a college student perspective). But there are problems for people who internalize those messages and see them as something to aspire to.
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That would be my perspective too, Jasmin.
Most of the “thugged out” black american sex tourists we see in Rio have university degrees and good jobs.
Ana thinks it has to do with a crisis in black masculinity and Jewel Woods believes this too. To wit: Black America has little in the way of historic middle class male role-models and in the symbolic game of masculinity, male guys from the middle class are considered to be effeminate.
So for the first time in history, Black America has a large and growing middle class which is also more-or-less integrated into the mainstream.
What’s an up-and-coming young black man to do? His grades speak for themselves, but they aren’t considered to reflect upon his masculinity, except negatively. But if he thugs himself out… Whammo! Instant macho man. Because given society’s racist views of black masculinity, nobody’s gonna doubt that our lil’ Snoop-Dog wannabe is a real honest-to-god thug if he dresses like one.
And come Monday, he can put the clothes away and show up for work or class like normal.
Role-playing, pure and simple.
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Jasmin, I agree but I guess my question is why? Why is hip-hop culture seen as the default black culture? Could it be due to exposure/media? I’m trying to figure out the root cause of its prevalence.
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You should see the finnish kids who dress up for the Hood, man! We may have some not so nice parts of towns here in Finland but no a one single ghetto nor anything close.
To be honest, I think it’s little bit over now, but some years ago kids really went for it. And it just didn’t look right somehow. Ok, I’m little too old for these things but still. And in finnish kids slang they are called the Hoppers (from hip hop, I guess).
But we have rappers here. They rap in finnish. About such subjects as: (my translations, sorry) “Tonite we have a party and I put gas on the flames, tonite we have a party and everything goes down”, or “Hey guys, whats happenin, I’m with you what ever happens”.
Actually we have a mute def rapper too: Signmark.
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First of all, given that “hip hop culture” can be stretched to cover Fitty Cent and De La Soul, I think the first thing you need to do is ask “What exactly is this hip hop culture I’m talking about”?
Because seriously, you guys are sounding a bit like the PMRC. Y’know, the Tipper Gore brigade who try to fit everyone from Prince on over to The Mentors under the rubric of “porn rock”, as if all these guys have anything in common with one another from a cultural standpoint other than the fact that they play electric guitars?
Define your terms clearly and certain answers will begin to suggest themselves.
What is “hip hop culture”?
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Thad, you’re splitting hairs, once again. I think nearly everyone knows what I’m referring to when I say “hip-hop/ghetto culture.” If not, they can ask wikipedia.
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Well, as an old fart I’m into rock so I cannot be too judgemental of these Hoppers here in Finland. And they have come up their own version of it, I give them that much credit.
And I listen, if I listen rap, those (I guess rude) thugs. Better beats and sounds and sometimes lyrics too. But I have one De La Soul album actually, a birthday gift to me from my older brother way back. These new ones, Fifty Cent etc., I don’t know.
But I think Natasha has a point there.
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On music:
Didn’t folks used to say how rock and roll would destroy minds? I know hip hop cultures is being attributed to destroying young people’s minds but I don’t buy it. It’s hip hop today ( like Thad said, who’s defining what hip hop is?) and it will be some other musical genre tomorrow.
As one of those “smart Black kids” who grew up around plenty of other “smart Black kids” (i.e., we aren’t a rarity), it makes me wonder why people attribute their “uniqueness” to the negative characteristics of their surroundings, rather than to their poor choices in associates. It’s the same thing with people who talk about how “ghetto” their neighborhood is–doesn’t that show your poor judgment in choosing a bad neighborhood?
I agree, also a smart kid growing up with other smart kids, I think people just need to find new friends or a new circle.
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Corrections made from my last post
As one of those “smart Black kids” who grew up around plenty of other “smart Black kids” (i.e., we aren’t a rarity), it makes me wonder why people attribute their “uniqueness” to the negative characteristics of their surroundings, rather than to their poor choices in associates. It’s the same thing with people who talk about how “ghetto” their neighborhood is–doesn’t that show your poor judgment in choosing a bad neighborhood?
I agree, also a smart kid growing up with other smart kids, I think people just need to find new friends or a new circle
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“RR,
could you please stop referring to black people as “negroes?”
I really don’t think you’re black. You continue to insult black people, and you continue to use outdated terms like “negroes.”
Often people who use that term use it offensively.”
Reminds me of the faux Aussie poster who intentionally repeated the word “japs” until someone finally took offense.
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Thad, you’re splitting hairs, once again. I think nearly everyone knows what I’m referring to when I say “hip-hop/ghetto culture.” If not, they can ask wikipedia.
You seriously think “hip-hop/ghetto culture” is in the Wiki, Natasha? Wanna bet? Maybe in the racist Metapedia, but I very much doubt it’s in the Wiki.
Seriously,. I’m telling you this as someone who makes his living analyzing cultures. Someone who gets paid to do it, Natasha. DEFINE YOUR TERMS. State what you mean. That’s not me splitting hairs, that’s me telling you to be clear to yourself what you’re talking about.
Again, hip-hop include De La Soul and Snoop Dog. What part of hip-hop culture are you talking about? Clarify it for yourself and the rest will fall into place.
You’ll be surprised, I guarantee.
Always presuming, of course, that you’re serious about the questions you’re asking and that this isn’t just another excercize in feel good dogma.
(Btw, a wiki search for “hip hop culture” turns up NOTHING negative. A search for “ghetto culture” turns up nothing at all. Obviously, these terms are not as self-explanatory as you think they are.)
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Paisley,
What, exactly, is so offensive about the word Negro? It is a discriptive word and I see no reason why I shouldn’t use it. I come from a long line of American Negroes and I am proud of it. As an accommodation to you, henceforth I will not use the word Negro when addressing you.
What should my race matter? Do you have anything to say regarding the substance of what I wrote?
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Umm, RR…you might want to address your questions to Mel. I neglected to use her name when I copied, pasted and responded to her comment, but I did at least put her comment in quotes….
Oh, and thanks anyway for agreeing to not address me by using the word Negro. I sincerely appreciate it.
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Natasha,
I would blame media/exposure for sure. Plus cash and cars are way cooler than going to school and reading. American pop culture in general focuses so much on excess that wanting to have it all (and bragging about it) is no big thing. When it comes to Black people, I think there’s a “poverty porn” angle too, hence why so many songs use the phrase “come up”.
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Jade, yes! Rock’n’roll was evil jungle music that could turn young kids into screaming savages. They actually tried to ban that too. Not just in the good ole US but in Europe too.
Even the diluted “white” version was almost too much for finnish authorities and Elvis was according finnish critics “a stupid looking mumbling cow-like howling kid”.
Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Bo Diddley and the rest of the Hard Core rockers were a real revelation of the eternal damnation! Jerry Lee Lewis screaming Great Balls fo Fire, Little Richard screaming Tutti Frutti etc. were a bit too much for many.
Nothing is new, I guess.
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Thanks, Jasmin.
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“Jade, yes! Rock’n’roll was evil jungle music that could turn young kids into screaming savages. They actually tried to ban that too. Not just in the good ole US but in Europe too.
Even the diluted “white” version was almost too much for finnish authorities and Elvis was according finnish critics “a stupid looking mumbling cow-like howling kid”.
Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Bo Diddley and the rest of the Hard Core rockers were a real revelation of the eternal damnation! Jerry Lee Lewis screaming Great Balls fo Fire, Little Richard screaming Tutti Frutti etc. were a bit too much for many.
Nothing is new, I guess.”
I’ve noticed that Scandinavians tend to know more about mid-20th century black American culture than anyone else. LOL.
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FG; we’re little bit slow here. But the music is good, right? Somehow these newer ones just don’t move me. Beyonce is divine, yes, but the music just… I don’t know.
Or maybe I’m just gettin old, damned!
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Abagond,
From my perspective as a Jamaican, I don’t think black America is backwards at all. When growing up in Jamaica, my friends and I would look at the black American women and think “they look cris!”…they would be dressed to nines, well groomed and put together, and acted as if they had the world at their fingertips. We would watch those TV shows and think…”those people have it together..in America, anything is possible…My mother told me that when she was a child, the migrant workers would come back from working in America and say that “you can pick up gold off the streets!”
I agree with Sam, black Americans don’t realize that black people all over the world are watching them and look to them as trendsetters and progressive change makers. Their ancestors fought hard for them to have the life that they have and it seems as if the younger generation doesn’t remember or honor it because they are caught up in the money trap and the “I have to have mine” mentality just like their white American brethrens…
Where we (immigrants) lose some of our respect, as eshowoman hinted at…is when black Americans act like they have it hard and don’t appreciate what they have…to me, even in the ghetto, they don’t live in poverty…do you know what welfare check and minimum wage is called in Jamaica–A Comfortable Living! In Jamaica, we value land…because land gives you a basic sense of security…
with land, the poorest peasant in Jamaica can grow fruit trees, some kind of vegetable, and have at least 1 chicken…people in the Jamaican ghetto’s wish they could fill out a form and receive a monthly check, milk and cheese for free…the Jamaican government doesn’t do crap for it’s people except to shoot up the place to protect their politicians from exposure but that’s another story:-)
I think what you are trying to point out, Abagond, is that black Americans are still in the race to equally attain and control the wealth and institutions in the US…
I also think that their contribution to American society is marginalized by white society because everyone (blacks, whites, and everyone in between) continue to perpetuate the stereotypes…
such as…when black Americans want to retain the one-drop rule and not force white Americans to acknowledge their common ancestry (Jeremiah Wright is pretty white for “black” man) or when white Americans want to continue to assume that affirmative action helped every college educated black person get into University or get a job versus acknowledging that black students still need to have a high GPA and good test scores…
Disparity in the US is a class issue – can you do a comparison between middle class black American life expectency versus middle class white American life expectancy–I am curious to see if there is a difference.
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Linda,
“I agree with Sam, black Americans don’t realize that black people all over the world are watching them and look to them as trendsetters and progressive change makers.”
I don’t know about that. Maybe in the Caribbean and Afro-Latin America, but not at all in Africa, from my firsthand experience.
“such as…when black Americans want to retain the one-drop rule and not force white Americans to acknowledge their common ancestry (Jeremiah Wright is pretty white for “black” man)”
He may be fair-skinned, but so are a portion of “pure” black people; “black/african” doesn’t have to equal a dark brown complexion, contrary to popular belief. So how would you separate them from those that are mixed?
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“He may be fair-skinned, but so are a portion of “pure” black people; “black/african” doesn’t have to equal a dark brown complexion, contrary to popular belief. So how would you separate them from those that are mixed?”
Complexion has nothing to do with what I was talking about. Many black familes have children with different skin colours and hair textures born to the same mother and father, that’s called genetics…I am talking about a state of mind that is prevelent in most coloured societies but differs between cultures.
In Africa, Jeremiah White would not be considered a “black” man, in Jamaica he would be called a “browning”…
There is no seperating Jeremiah from people who are mixed because he is mixed as well–what %, don’t know, but his features show that he is mixed racially, why deny the obvious…
http://wonkette.com/390469/bob-barr-has-a-jeremiah-wright-problem
Light-skinned Africans might have sailed over to North America, but the “light skin” black people category grew and flourished because it had alot of help thanks to white men laying down with African women and light skin people marrying other light skin people…this is a historical fact.
With the exception of recent immigrants from Africa, Most Caribbean and South & North American black peoples ancestors have been out of Africa for over 100 years now, so its a stretch to look to Africa alone to describe anyones recent ancestors pheno- and geno-type.
only in America would Jeremiah White be considered a black man and why is this, because black Americans have accepted and embrace the one-drop rule that the white Americans created and continues to perpetuate.
if a person with an obvious or not-so- obvious racial mixture says “yeah, my grandmother was white or half-white but I’m still black” then it’s OK;
but if this same person tries to say “I am mixed race” instead of saying “I am black” then that person is ostracized, called a “sell-out”, and made to feel bad.
There is alot of criticism from black Americans when non-American coloured people try to label themselves into a different category…such as when afro-latinos wish to call themselves “hispanic or latina/o”–acknowledging their admixture. Like Lala Vasquez–she gets flack for saying she’s not black, she’s latina
White Americans get to remain ignorant and act as if racial mixing doesn’t exist between black & white but they have no problems to say “I’m 1/8th Indian or my grandmother or great-grandmother was Indian”…
even though Halle Berry’s daughter has green eyes and blond hair, both white and black Americans are going to call her “black”…why are black Americans OK with having their ethnicity marginalized by white America?
Don’t get me wrong, I am not naive enough to believe that white people would rush to claim their part-black cousins..racism is obviously alive and a problem that won’t go away …but white Americans should be forced to acknowledge that they are closely related by blood to their black American kins…and not be allowed to sweep it under the carpet ie Thomas Jefferson’s family.
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When people say that we are the way we are is because we were colonized, is an excuse. Vietnam was colonized by the french BUT the people come here, learn standard english, not AFRAID to speak with a standard american accent. By the way; the standard american accent is NOT WHITE ;European is white. Also when you said the Cosby show was created by black people, most of the blacks criticized it. The ones of us who criticized it were the ‘black consciouness’ bunch from the so-called black community who said it was unrealistic. But they WONT criticized the filth that hits black women day after day in the form of rap music {one disclamer} its NOT the sound of the music im criticizing, its the CONTENT. I believe rock and roll was an euphamism for dancing.; you could use it that way. Making love was kissing, not intercourse, etc. Listening to rap music all day is like being at the beach–the water is in the 50s but if you stay in it long enough, it gets ‘warmer’ and going outside is cold. My friends niece, who is black went to her prom without a date, and got pregnant ON THE DANCE FLOOR she CAME WITHOUT A DATE! Don’t you think if a guy would take her out, he’d come to the front door? well rap music content is like that–being at the beach without a wetsuit,-. Ive done it, I know.
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Y’know Linda, across the black/white divide, a person could have a light skin and curly hair and still be black BUT if you have children by a Pacific Islander, the child could have another ‘phenotype’ altogether (not like Tiger Woods) he looks black to me. The phenotypes of these kids gets really strange sometimes since blacks are mixed with native american as well as white. Some whites were indentured servants and some blacks were also, many of them had kids together. Since they couldn’t read and write, you dont hear much about them. The term ‘mammy’ is Irish.
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2/3 of modern white america HAS BLACK COUSINS today.
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“In Africa, Jeremiah White would not be considered a “black” man, in Jamaica he would be called a “browning”…”
Linda, I’ve mentioned this on another thread. You’ve got to understand that if it was revealed that Dolph Lundgren has distant African ancestry, Natasha would chime in claiming that there are indigenous sub-Saharans who look just like him.
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“even though Halle Berry’s daughter has green eyes and blond hair, both white and black Americans are going to call her “black”…”
Many black Americans certainly. But probably not many white Americans unless that’s how Halle’s daughter identifies.
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Why? Because you say so?
If, as it seems, your claim is based on Wright’s skin tone, you’re wrong. As Natasha stated, there are millions of Africans lighter than Jeremiah Wright on the continent. Some mixed, some not. And they are considered black.
On the other hand, people born from African parents but who have spent all their lives in Europe or the US are considered white when they come back home.
This to let you know that it is not the percentage of melanin which determines the acceptance of people of African descent on Africa. It has more to do with the behaviour and the culture.
If Jeremiah Wright behaves like the average American and displays the same bias, ignorance and arrogance as his white counterparts, he definitely will not be considered black. But the same could be said of Wesley Snipes or any darker colored African-American.
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Dahoman X,
that’s what I said in my reply to Natasha so I guess you are agreeing with me
Linda said,
“Complexion has nothing to do with what I was talking about. Many black familes have children with different skin colours and hair textures born to the same mother and father, that’s called genetics…I am talking about a state of mind that is prevelent in most coloured societies but differs between cultures.
In Africa, Jeremiah White would not be considered a “black” man, in Jamaica he would be called a “browning”…”
so yes, I am saying that classification within a society is cultural…
why is it necessary for people to point out that there is light-skin people in Africa…no kidding…what does that have to do with black Americans…your ancestry is tied to North America more tightly than Africa…The different cultures/countries within African have nothing to do with how black Americans classifiy people of colour…
why act as if white and black Americans didn’t mix way back when…
a whole ship load of light-skinned Africans didn’t create the mulatto caste system that was prevelant back in the 1700 and 1800..is it so hard to just say “yes, Wright most likely has white people in his ancestry”, just like a large percentage of black Americans who don’t share his phenotype but they still carry the gene…
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>>Seriously,. I’m telling you this as someone who makes his living analyzing cultures. Someone who gets paid to do it, Natasha. DEFINE YOUR TERMS. State what you mean. That’s not me splitting hairs, that’s me telling you to be clear to yourself what you’re talking about.
Thaddeus, that means you’re paid to complicate the subject enough to prevent non-experts from being able to discuss it with you, until you condescend to use ordinary terms instead of professional jargon.
>>Again, hip-hop include De La Soul and Snoop Dog. What part of hip-hop culture are you talking about? Clarify it for yourself and the rest will fall into place.
I think she means all of it from De La Soul to Snoop Dog, not part of it.
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RDKirk, don’t sweat it. If a person needs me to define the term, they more than likely won’t be able to answer my question, so it’s of no use.
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Linda,
“Complexion has nothing to do with what I was talking about. Many black familes have children with different skin colours and hair textures born to the same mother and father, that’s called genetics…I am talking about a state of mind that is prevelent in most coloured societies but differs between cultures.
In Africa, Jeremiah White would not be considered a “black” man, in Jamaica he would be called a “browning”…
You’re confusing terms. He may or may not be considered “black” in terms of color, depending on who you ask, but he would be considered African if in fact he were. By contrast, when black Americans say someone is “black” they are not talking about their color.
“There is no seperating Jeremiah from people who are mixed because he is mixed as well–what %, don’t know, but his features show that he is mixed racially, why deny the obvious…
http://wonkette.com/390469/bob-barr-has-a-jeremiah-wright-problem“
So this is about his features? Funny because I always thought he looked strikingly similar to Nigerian actor Ashley Nwosu:
IOW, there is nothing about his features that indicate “mixed.” I will assume he is mixed though, since he is a black slave descendant, but know that I’m not presuming that because of his appearance.
“even though Halle Berry’s daughter has green eyes and blond hair, both white and black Americans are going to call her “black”
Why do you assume that? I don’t see most black Americans one-dropping people. For sure there are some hardcore one-droppists, but the majority are not going to say, Adriana Lima, for example, is black because she has some African ancestry.
FG,
“Linda, I’ve mentioned this on another thread. You’ve got to understand that if it was revealed that Dolph Lundgren has distant African ancestry, Natasha would chime in claiming that there are indigenous sub-Saharans who look just like him.”
Is this your attempt to “read my mind?” Or flame me?
Fail and fail.
But I love that every single person that deviates from a Djimon Honsou phenotype is supposedly “mixed” to you and other mixed race advocates. Talk about one dropping!
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Natasha,
I’ve seen Jeremiah Wright in person (I’d never heard of Ashley Nwosu until you pointed him out), and I can certainly see the resemblance, especially in a frontal picture of both. I too tend to assume most American-born Black people are mixed to some degree, and statistics bear that out.
Maybe it’s a regional thing, but most Black people in my neck of the woods have an aversion to claiming “mixedness”, unless they have a non-Black parent. Way back when, family members just “assimilated into Black” for strategic reasons, I’m guessing–there weren’t many benefits to claiming White ancestry unless you could pass, and even the ones who could didn’t want to, in most cases. I’ve seen those tv specials where the Black and White halves of the family come together, and I can’t imagine anyone in my family or anyone out here wanting to do that–people just don’t see the value in it in [my major city].
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@RDKirk
Thaddeus, that means you’re paid to complicate the subject enough to prevent non-experts from being able to discuss it with you, until you condescend to use ordinary terms instead of professional jargon.
That could be said of every profession, from anthropology to plumbing.
But riddle me this, RD: if I were inclined to make social critique a closed deal, why would I bother to give Natasha tips about it?
Also “define your terms” is hardly wierd outré jargon. If Natasha really means “everything in the hip hop genre from De La Soul to Snoop Dogg”, then she really needs to define her terms, because that’s such a wide field hardly anything at all can be said of it. One certainly can’t say, as Natasha seems to be saying, that all the artists in that field are somehow degrading black america.
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Jasmin,
“Maybe it’s a regional thing, but most Black people in my neck of the woods have an aversion to claiming “mixedness”, unless they have a non-Black parent.”
It’s a fave amongst whites and blacks I know to claim Native ancetry, but admixture studies have shown that the majority have very little or no Native ancestry.
I guess I don’t really see the point of claiming mixed unless your experience or culture is affected by your unique ancestry. Most black Americans are “mixed” so slicing and dicing based on phenotype doesn’t serve much of a purpose (neither is it accurate, as admixture studies have shown), except to separate oneself from “blackness.”
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Native American philosopher and activst Vine Deloria Jr. had a whole chapter in his Custer Died for Your Sins on the myth of the Indian grandmother.
Mixing with Indians was always more-or-less accepted in the U.S. People forget that the “one drop” rule worked – to the degree that it worked – only in the context of black and white relations. It wasn’t a general law applied to race.
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Natasha,
Outside the context of a genealogy conversation, I don’t really see the point in it coming up. Some of my family members would cut you if you told them they were anything less than 100% Black, even though the family tree says otherwise. Being raised as Black and seeing themselves as Black is what matters, not some White ancestor who’d probably recoil at the thought of being related to someone Black.
Incidentally, my boyfriend doesn’t want our (future) children to be associated with Whiteness at all. He says, “I want them to be Black and Jewish–that’s it.” He’s really adamant about it, but I’m not surprise. He grew up with all of his family members checking “other” on the Census.
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^ *surprised*
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Jasmin,
“Some of my family members would cut you if you told them they were anything less than 100% Black”
Huh, are we related? 😉
“Incidentally, my boyfriend doesn’t want our (future) children to be associated with Whiteness at all. He says, “I want them to be Black and Jewish–that’s it.” He’s really adamant about it, but I’m not surprise. He grew up with all of his family members checking “other” on the Census.”
Interesting, my SO was pushing the biracial identity for our yet-to-be children, but he’s more ambivalent now that he’s seen it’s sometimes used as a way to minimize half of the person’s ancestry.
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@ Boomer Babe
You said, 2/3 of modern white america HAS BLACK COUSINS today.
Because of that statement along with some of your comments regarding the Irish, I would be interested to hear some of some similar thoughts I’ve shared. Probably best to check the “Irish Americans” thread that Abagond did a few months ago. I found some interesting African/Irish links that I posted there.
@ Jasmin
You said, my boyfriend doesn’t want our (future) children to be associated with Whiteness at all. He says, “I want them to be Black and Jewish–that’s it.” He’s really adamant about it, but I’m not surprise. He grew up with all of his family members checking “other” on the Census.
I admire that. So many Jews are a mixture of many ethnic groups and backgrounds. As I’ve said before, here in Florida, there are Jews from all over Latin America, Europe, the U.S, and of course Israel. I have a colleague who is Venezuelan but his family is Jewish – originally from Poland & Romania. I have other acquaintencances that are also Latino-Jewish, but of a much more mixed Latino appearance. I’m curious, does anyone ever approach you and ask you if your boyfriend is “White”? If they do, what is your answer? I’m only asking because I have seen people respond in various ways. For example, I’ve seen “White” people respond with: no, I’m Puerto Rican. No, I’m Brazilian, etc…. In this case, I’m wondering if the response would -or- has ever been. No, he’s Jewish.
(By the way, if you’re curious I’m currently residing in Aventura, Florida which has a very large Jewish population.)
The question posed here is, Black America Backward?
My thought is that “America” in general is backward in many ways when it comes to racial classification and separatism based on race & ethnicity: All of which originates on our roots in a historically segregated society.
These concepts about mixed race, black/white, just exactly who is Black or White only serves to demonstrate how “BACKWARD” both Black, White and the rest of America really is when it comes to this bullshoid.
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@ Jasmin & Natasha
“Some of my family members would cut you if you told them they were anything less than 100% Black”
Huh, are we related?
Interesting: I imagine a lot of KKK members would feel the same way if someone told them they were anything less than 100% White. (which in some cases, has already happened.) I recall reading an article about a gentlemen who belonged to such a group and discovered he had a significant amount of Black ancestry. I tried to find a link to the article but haven’t had any success yet.
Personally, I think the biggest danger of all is having a closed mind.
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I will be pushing a countermobile identity for my kids. In other words, I will urge them to take one whatever identity the people around them think they SHOULDN’T be.
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LOL – THAD ! ! !
countermobile identity – whatever identity the people around them think they SHOULDN’T be.
too funny ! ! ! (don’t worry, I’m laughing but I know you’re serious.)
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“Interesting, my SO was pushing the biracial identity for our yet-to-be children, but he’s more ambivalent now that he’s seen it’s sometimes used as a way to minimize half of the person’s ancestry.”
It’s odd that you would be concerned about minimizing ancestry considering that you’re a proponent of the invisible blackness dogma. You would have people ignore 75% of their ancestry if that other 25% were of African origin.
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“Most black Americans are “mixed” so slicing and dicing based on phenotype doesn’t serve much of a purpose (neither is it accurate, as admixture studies have shown), except to separate oneself from “blackness.”
They aren’t that mixed. If they were genuinely mixed, they would look more like Puerto Ricans, a group with fairly large proportions of African and European looking individuals.
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Color of Luv,
My boyfriend “looks” pretty White (brown hair, blue/green eyes, relatively pale skin)–his actual origins are a mix of Polish and something else, but he never really talks about it. He and all his family members would all be solidly classified as White people, so there’s no reason for people to ask me what race he is (unless you are talking sight unseen?).
People have said he doesn’t look or act Jewish (read: he doesn’t have a big nose and he’s not stingy with money), so he’s pretty adamant about identifying as Jewish and not White. (Yes, he does say, “No I’m Jewish”, depending on the situation.) But he’d never deny that he is White and knows that people see him as such at first glance (and he has privileges as a result, being able to hide being Jewish and all).
I never describe him as just “Jewish”, since I feel like it implies “White Ashkenazi Jew”–how likely are people to describe a non-White Jew as “just” Jewish? If someone asked me for a physical description I probably wouldn’t use “White” or “Jewish” (though I’m more likely to use the latter), because it’s pretty obvious–the White part at least–from his skin/hair/eye color combo.
Natasha,
As I recall, your SO (fiancee yet? ;-)) has a big connection to his Swedish roots, right? So I wouldn’t be surprised, given that he has a specific cultural connection, not just the “default” White one, if your kids connect to being Swedish, but not generally “White”.
Thad,
You don’t have children? I don’t know why I assumed you do–must have confused you with someone else.
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““Interesting, my SO was pushing the biracial identity for our yet-to-be children, but he’s more ambivalent now that he’s seen it’s sometimes used as a way to minimize half of the person’s ancestry.”
Basically anything short of monoracial black identification, even for phenotypically white mixed individuals, constitutes minimizing “half the person’s ancestry” for you. Get real. Nobody’s buying your tricks.
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“As I recall, your SO (fiancee yet? ) has a big connection to his Swedish roots, right? So I wouldn’t be surprised, given that he has a specific cultural connection, not just the “default” White one, if your kids connect to being Swedish, but not generally “White”.”
There’s definitely a Euro-American ethnicity, though most whites have a difficult time articulating what constitutes it.
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Not Mira, someone who’s actually from Europe. As she’s discussed numerous times, there’s no pan-European unity. Which makes sense to me–would anyone argue that there’s North American unity (and consequently, a North American ethnicity)? I don’t know how White Americans are qualified to talk about European relations, given that most Americans are woefully ignorant about international affairs, and only the most recent European immigrants tend to have any connections to their country of origin.
You must have missed it–Mira talks about that once in awhile–there’s even a post on Moi’s blog about the myth of “European unity”.
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I had a stepson from a prior marriage, Jasmin.
As for ethnic identity in general, I think it’s for the birds.
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When I say Euro-American ethnicity, I mean an ethnic group of people of European descent living in the US that doesn’t necessarily have any strong connection to European cultures. It’s analogous to the relationship between African American ethnicity and African cultures.
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@ Jasmin –
thanks for sharing the response. i know things can get personal on this blog, so I know sometimes one may be hesitant to share things of a more personal nature.
@ FG
There’s definitely a Euro-American ethnicity, though most whites have a difficult time articulating what constitutes it.
I found myself trying to address this, but my mind is running in so many different directions, I’m not doing a very good job of getting my thoughts in any organized fashion to even begin trying to put them into a cohesive sentences. I’ve decided I’ll try to share ‘my take’ on this later when I have more time. It is somewhat problematic in general terms for the simple sake of defining “Euro-American ethnicity” when examining U.S. history culturally on such a large scale. That and just who is actually defining the term “euro-american ethnicity”: rural America, urban America, other euro-ethnic immigrant groups, mid-west America, Black America, rural southern Black America, Urban north Black America, Creole, Cajun, Southwesten America, etc… ??? When I ask that question, I can imagine all sorts of responses as to what defines “euro-american ethnicity” based on the source that is defining said term. Well – you get the idea why I started getting dizzy just thinking about the topic. Perhaps it deserves its own “Thread” ? Into the Suggestion Box maybe?
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FG,
“It’s odd that you would be concerned about minimizing ancestry considering that you’re a proponent of the invisible blackness dogma. You would have people ignore 75% of their ancestry if that other 25% were of African origin.”
Uh no, I wouldn’t.
But thanks for playing. I knew you would latch on to that comment like crust on bread. Funny enough, it was primarily your statements on this blog (he is a lurker) and mulatto.org that caused him to have doubts about the biracial identity. 🙂
“They aren’t that mixed. If they were genuinely mixed, they would look more like Puerto Ricans, a group with fairly large proportions of African and European looking individuals.
Black Americans are ~17 percent European origin on average. There have been numerous studies on this. See the recent study posted on “Some numbers on black Americans” for more info.
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FG,
Are you talking about your “average” White American person, who doesn’t know exact origins besides “a little bit of Polish, a little bit of German, etc”, or like a 2nd or 3rd generation European-American who doesn’t connect to the traditions of their parents/grandparents?
CoL,
Good point. I don’t think of American White people as “European-American” anymore than I think of American Black people as “African-American”, probably for similar reasons, now that I think about it.
No problem. 🙂 My boyfriend loves to talk about being Jewish and double consciousness and all that (I tell him he was deprived as a kid)–I should make him come here and tell you himself! 🙂
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“But thanks for playing. I knew you would latch on to that comment like crust on bread. Funny enough, it was primarily your statements on this blog (he is a lurker) and mulatto.org that caused him to have doubts about the biracial identity.”
This “SO” you’re talking about could be as non-existent as the paper bag test you were subjected to. However, I think my observations well reflect the realities of race in the US. Everyone knows that the US remains a racially bifurcated society. When mixed people like Obama identify as black, that’s readily accepted because of the recognition of this social division. It’s only when mixed people lean white that it starts to get controversial.
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FG,
This “SO” you’re talking about could be as non-existent as the paper bag test you were subjected to. “
Ah, okay. Claiming I’m making things up now, really? I suppose abagond’s wife doesn’t exist either, since you haven’t seen her with your eyes? Cheap tactic, but I expect it from one who only has cheap tactics.
“However, I think my observations well reflect the realities of race in the US. “
…in your mind.
You are a very frustrated guy (FG), indeed. I truly hope you can find peace with yourself, eventually. Truly, I do.
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Jasmin,
“As I recall, your SO (fiancee yet? 😉 ) has a big connection to his Swedish roots, right?
Not yet! He knows I know of his plans, so I think he is stalling on purpose.
He isn’t strongly tied to his Swedish roots. He grew up in the U.S. and so did his parents (although they were born in Scandinavia). He is more or less “white American” with a sprinkling of Scandinavian culture here and there.
“So I wouldn’t be surprised, given that he has a specific cultural connection, not just the “default” White one, if your kids connect to being Swedish, but not generally “White”.
Maybe, but it would have to come from some other members of his family, like his grandparents.
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Riddle me this, folks: why are Americans of all colors so hung up on the concept of identity? This is barely an issue in most places around the world.
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“You are a very frustrated guy (FG), indeed. I truly hope you can find peace with yourself, eventually. Truly, I do.”
I’ve just gotten interested in these issues just recently. I think it’s rational for a person like me who is mixed in a sociological sense to be interested in multiracial issues. What I don’t understand is why people who are not mixed to any significant extent are obsessed by what mixed people are doing or how they think of themselves. I patronize mixed websites, but I could care less what goes on on the websites of other groups.
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@ Thad
(I guess I’ll let you bash on me a bit.)
why are Americans of all colors so hung up on the concept of identity?
Pride & Humility
Partial answer:
Because of our segregationist history and subsequent categorization of “peoples” within the U.S. The creation of false definitions of a human being (ourselves) further perpetuated by ignorance while systematically being incorporated into government and society. The belief in division of peoples rather than the unity of peoples. (Ironic, given my favorite motto is “United We Stand, Divided We Fall.) As to why this ‘separatist ideology’ persists today, I can’t really pinpoint to any single reason. However, I do believe that culturally speaking, America – because of the history I mentioned, is still struggling to rise up out of some sort of sociological quasi-subconscious dark age. Without addressing the complexity of that which fuels superiority or inferiority complexes, I will say that Pride can be both a blessing or a curse – but necessary in balance.
I think this obsession with color/ethnic categorization stems from Pride that for whatever reason turns sour by way of some form of ignorance or negativity. (I can’t speak for any individual) I think too many people focus on Pride and forget their Humility. – – And that is when “Pride” can become negative, even if under the guise of something “positive”.
Ok – I’m getting a brain cramp. Maybe I’ll make more sense when I revisit this.
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Riddle me this, folks: why are Americans of all colors so hung up on the concept of identity?
Why not? It’s fun!
I patronize mixed websites, but I could care less what goes on on the websites of other groups.
I hate that word ‘mixed’! Couldn’t you come up with something which more accurately breaks down a person’s admixture? How about quantifierloon_insert percentage?
Interesting, my SO was pushing the biracial identity for our yet-to-be children, but he’s more ambivalent now that he’s seen it’s sometimes used as a way to minimize half of the person’s ancestry.
An excellent observation Natasha, it being used as a way to minimize half a person’s ancestry, that is. I’ve posited time and again, that most North American blacks have some white ancestry in them. I know people who look ‘white’ to most people(people are dumb!), if you tell them that they are anything but black, they will tear a strip off you! A dumb broad asked me why such people consider themselves black after she watched one of those talk shows. I informed this woman that perhaps they were brought up in the black community, most of their relatives were black, and culturally, that is how they identify. At least the woman understood that. As for those who wish to identify as ‘mixed’ carry on, no-one is stopping you! Besides which, if you are comfortable with your identity, you wouldn’t give a fiddler’s fark as to how others identify you. Albeit that this is easier if you look more white. If you look more black, you will be in for a hell of a ride, just ask the millions of blacks who have 10-17% white ancestry!
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FG,
“I’ve just gotten interested in these issues just recently. I think it’s rational for a person like me who is mixed in a sociological sense to be interested in multiracial issues.”
Yes, but what is not rational is for you to come to this blog and release all of your frustrations with U.S. racial identity on its commenters.
And there is such a thing as the pendulum swinging too far in the opposite direction. I think that’s the issue that my SO has with the biracial identity; not it in and of itself, but the fact that it seems less of a way to say “Hey, I’m mixed” and more of a way to say “Hey, I’m not black!” At least with online proponents.
But ignore him. He is just some random white guy I keep photos of on my Flickr.
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Ah, Color O’ Luv, you changed the formatting for all of the comments again.
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Interesting theory, CoL, but Americans apparently have always been hung up on the concept of identity. I mean, this isn’t a recent thing, so I don’t see how it can be the result of racism and segregation. I wonder if it has something to do with being a country of immigrants?
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FG,
By the same token, why should anyone believe you are multiracial/mixed? After all, you don’t have a picture, and even if you did, it could just be something you stole off the Internet. 🙄 Logic is your friend.
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@Herneith
Why not? It’s fun!
Yeah, but it seems to me that it distracts you guys from looking at other burning issues such as class.
I know that if I had to choose between being black and rich or white and poor in the U.S., I’d take the first otion without hesitation. Not that that would mean all my troubles were over, by a long shot. Racism is indeed a bitch. But in a capitalist country like the U.S., the people who have the capital rule.
It amazes me how obvious this is and yet how taboo the topic of class is to most Americans.
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Lol, Jasmin. Nice use of the eyeroll smiley. 😉
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Jasmin and Natasha,
Thank you for your views and honesty…I’ve always enjoyed talking to people and getting to learn about their cultures, views, and rituals…
I see where you both are coming from…the history in this country just runs so deep…as you both say, our mindsets are different based on where we are coming from…
I still don’t like the hypocrisy though — you can’t be 100% pure anything if you are 6%-25% of something else…
I think that maybe because the British, Spanish, Portuguese, and other European colonial rulers were always outnumbered and they didn’t have enough white women in the colonies, so they were more open about their “relationships” with black women and used their part white children as a way to divide and conquer by setting the children free and keeping the childrens loyalty to their “white” side of the family;
whereas, the white Americans were hypocrites and didn’t want to acknowledge their half-white children; thus forcing the children to identify more with their “black” side…
I was reading about a mixed race Jamaican nurse, Mary Seacole, who became famous for helping the soldiers in the Crimean War (1850’s). She lived in Panama for a while and the biography mentioned how she had a hard time getting home to Jamaica because she had a hard time booking onto an American ship and she had to wait a few months for a British ship so she could sail home.
I think most islanders of colour get a rude awakening when they come to the US…my “brown & white” Jamaican relatives had a hard time with being labeled “black” by US Customs.
I truly understand when you say it’s based on how and where you grow up and how the people around you think and identify but I just can’t understand why black Americans continue to enforce a mindset that was forced on them as a tool to further segregate…
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@Linda
I don’t know if it was so much “divide and conquer” – at least as a conscious strategy – as it was “breed your own class of overseers”.
In Brazil, there was little in the way of a poor white class to work at the jobs that needed free labor on the plantations. Typically, the free mixed population did those. And who were these people? Often the bastards of the planters.
“Divide and Conquer” presumes a modern and capitalist mentality. In Brazil, we had very much a feudal, family-based mentality.
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Linda,
Sorry, you’re preaching to the wrong choir here–who said anything about being 6-25% anything? As it’s been discussed (a million and one times over), there’s no way to quantify anyone’s bloodline exactly, which is why most discussions of “who’s Black and who’s not” focus on self-identification, on phenotype (somewhat), and culture. If you are raised as a member of Black culture (meaning, you are considered a part of it, and not an outsider), what your genetics say is likely meaningless. Just like most people wouldn’t claim to “identify” with distant relatives, it’s pretty unlikely they’ll claim some long-lost ancestors, regardless of race.
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Yeah, but it seems to me that it distracts you guys from looking at other burning issues such as class.
I am not distracted from issues of class. This post is about black America. I suppose one could intersperse class in the discussion in regards to race and class among black Americans. Class in general and it’s attendant complexities, is another post I would think, as it is too broad a subject to be broached here. In fact it’s obvious that one impacts the other. Anyone can see this(I hope so at least). As a black person, one of the reasons I come to this blog is to read other black peoples thoughts on race. Human nature, society, culture, etc, is infinite in it’s diversity, I am reminded of this everyday. Class, racism, all the isms, are ripe for discussion, however, I prefer, in this instance, to discuss racism and it’s ramifications as that impacts me more than class if one must have a hierarchy of what affects them most. Perhaps a post on class is in order. Critique of political philosophies would be nice, if for nothing else just to read others input. Being from ‘socialist’ Canada, class is certainly a concern, but for me, racism more so.
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What the hell happened to the italicized quoting here?
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Thad,
What you just wrote reminds me of a joke Chris Rock once told. He talked about moving to a super-rich neighborhood and living next to a dentist–the joke goes on to remark on the irony of a Black millionaire comedian and movie star living next to a White dentist. (I’m horrible at explaining jokes–Youtube it.)
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Well hell, why is that irony? There are some damned rich millionaire dentists out there. You can make a helluva alot of money in the right field of oral hygiene.
I have a couple of very rich friends of friends back in the U.S. My step-sister married one. We’re talking guys who are brain surgeons and corporate lawyers and probably have money on the order of Chris Rock. They live next door to doctors, lawyers… and dentists.
It makes me wonder if Chris has a true notion of a point he himself once brought up: the difference between wealth and prosperity. As Chris put it, “wealth” is what a basketball star (or a comedian) gets. It can be blown on a bad night in Vegas with too much ho ‘n blow. “Prosperity” is the white guy who owns the rights to the color blue. NOTHING he’s going to do is going to blow that.
Chris, rock stars, dentists and lawyers are all wealthy: they ain’t prosperous. It’s no wonder that they live in the same neighborhood. Where did Chris expect to live, I wonder?
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Wanna know what’s a real mark of race-based classism? The fact that black middle-class people and upper-middle class people think folks like Chris Rock are on the same level as the people who really own the economy.
Not by a long shot.
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Thad,
You should watch the video of the joke, because you missed the point. Rock wasn’t making a critique of dentists, he was laughing at the irony that a Black dentist would likely not be “allowed” into his neighborhood–for a Black person to gain entrance s/he literally has to be a “megastar”.
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Or a millionaire. I think a black dentist as rich as Rock would probably have not too much trouble these days. In fact, when I was last in the U.S., I saw this all over the east coast: wealthy white neighbothoods with their token rich black families. I doubt most of those people were megastars: probably were doctors, lawyers… and dentists.
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Jasmin,
Studies have shown that on average, Black Americans have up 35% admixture with European ancestry–depending on geographic region of the US…
As for quantifying genes: henry louis gates, jr. is making a decent bit of change for doing just that…
am not preaching anything to you nor I am not interested in quantifying anyones racial makeup…I could care less…
I am not talking about genes, I am talking about attitudes:
my whole point was that for a culture (black Americans) with a fair amount of European admixture, you all like to act as if you only have your African ancestors blood running through your veins…if I understand you correctly, you are saying that claiming any portion of white heritage does nothing for you…that’s fine
To me, white Americans get away with marginalizing blacks because they view black Americans as a separate group of people who have nothing to do with them or their history…when in fact, black American history is firmly intertwined with their own…
I understand if black Americans wish to act as if they are monoracial (history and all that)
In Jamaica, we call it like we see it based on skin tone, known family history, or how a person looks.. we are considered a “black” country but we take pride in all our ancestors who helped to create our culture (Native, African, European, Chinese, Indian)…but then again, we have that luxury because we are not minorities in our own country…
I am not American, but I do live here now and like I said, I do understand the concept of the mindset…
and what I see often and don’t like is when other black people (non-Americans) wish to classify and identify with their ethnic group or nationality, black Americans get mad…
such as: when Dominicans say they are not black but latina, or Lala Vasquez says she is Puerto Rican…
I’ve seen and heard the comments “Oh, she thinks she’s better than us”, “She’s still black”…”She don’t look mixed to me” “my mother is lighter than her”….so on and so forth…
The majority of black Americans I’ve known have the one drop attititude,…They are not “OK” with people of colour choosing “other”
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I’m stuck in italics… and I CAN’T GET OUT!!
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In Jamaica, we call it like we see it based on skin tone, known family history, or how a person looks.. we are considered a “black” country but we take pride in all our ancestors who helped to create our culture (Native, African, European, Chinese, Indian)…but then again, we have that luxury because we are not minorities in our own country…
Sopunds a bit like Brazil, actually.
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@ Natasha
If I somehow truely caused this italics thing, I’m sorry to you and all others. I’m not sure why I’m having problems with this. I have been following the ‘commenting rules’ per Abagond for bold and quotes. Perhaps becuase i’m on a multilingual keyboard maybe when i hit a backspace or do somethign odd in combination (such as ‘set italics’, then backspace,space, etc… some hidden ‘code’ gets implemented.) I’m sure Abagond can figure it out.
@ Thad
Fair enough; however, Brazil is also a country of immigrants. In Brazil, I never hear any immigrant group that was born in Brazil adopt the separatist/classification attitudes that you see in the U.S. As I ‘ve stated before, take a Brazilian of japanese ancestry, put them in the United States, watch them be introduced to “Americans” (of any ethnic background: Black, latino, asian, Irish, etc…) – see how perplexed the “Americans” are by the “unique accent that can’t quite be identified as French or Spanish, wait for the question: Where are you from? When the answer is Brazil, all sorts of erroneous assumptions arise based on that American Pschological need to categorize, separate: So you then get questions like, “Wait, I thought you were Asian?” Then you see, “I’m Brazilian! My grandparents are from Japan.”
There is a larger issue here and I believe it all goes back to the Segregationists mindset. Families tend to perpetuate a separtist mindset because of the lingering effects of our segregated history still impacting the American Society we live in today.
Brazil, (perhaps Jamaica based on some comments here) – had the advantage of being a much more openly “mixed” society than U.S. The majority of the population is brown with every imaginable phenotypical feature. If families, extended families, friends, etc… all consist of brown, black, white, mixed, blond, blue eyted, tall, short – how do you live with a “segregationist/separatist” mindset? The U.S. force fed this segregationist mindset – even ethnic separation – throughout our history. It’s f&*^% castor oil for the masses!!! or as I say, “Bullshoid.”
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CoL sez: “In Brazil, I never hear any immigrant group that was born in Brazil adopt the separatist/classification attitudes that you see in the U.S.”
You need to get down into the rural south more often. Believe me, it exists, though perhaps not as strong as in the U.S.
I did have a good nipo-brazilian friend back in my college days, however who loved screwing with American’s heads in exactly the way you describe.
I’m not so sure about the segregationist mindset as it seems to me that this mindset at least partially existed before segregation. Though I DO think that segregation is a big, big part of it, I also think immigration was a big deal. And immigration to the States was an order of magnitude beyond immigration to Brazil. I also think that Brazil has the advantage of having had 350 years of formation BEFORE it started taking in large numbers of immigrants other than africans and portuguese. So by the time the 20th century rolls around and immigration explodes, a national cultural motiff has already been well established.
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“Black Americans are ~17 percent European origin on average. There have been numerous studies on this. See the recent study posted on “Some numbers on black Americans” for more info.”
17 percent isn’t that mixed. Besides, the Euro-ancestry isn’t evenly distributed in the black population. A minority has a good deal of European admixture (e.g. Islandgirl) while the rest has little. And not all of these “light skin blacks” are as devoted to black identity as you would imagine. Many of them participate on multiracial websites and in the multiracial movement. The ones who do refer to themselves as “multi-generational mixed.” In some cases, the only reason their family started to identify as black was because of the extreme racism of the Jim Crow era, which is growing increasingly distant.
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Saying that you are against racism while participating in the “multiracial” movement and spouting a “multiracial” identity is a bit like saying you’ve decided to make your mark against sexual promiscuity by becoming a sad-masochistic lesbian nun.
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“Saying that you are against racism while participating in the “multiracial” movement and spouting a “multiracial” identity is a bit like saying you’ve decided to make your mark against sexual promiscuity by becoming a sad-masochistic lesbian nun.”
?
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Well, I don’t see how recognizing that one has significant ancestry from multiple continental groups perpetuates racism. I think people labeling themselves as black based on invisible African ancestry does more to advance the notion of innate racial differences.
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And if the argument is that someone shouldn’t identify as multiracial because that perpetuates notions of racial distinctiveness, then by the same token everyone needs to give up their racial identity (including blacks and white).
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Jasmin,
“Sorry, you’re preaching to the wrong choir here–who said anything about being 6-25% anything? As it’s been discussed (a million and one times over), there’s no way to quantify anyone’s bloodline exactly, which is why most discussions of “who’s Black and who’s not” focus on self-identification, on phenotype (somewhat), and culture.”
Correct. And there is no such thing as “pure,” really; even homogeneous regions of the world have some level of detectable admixture.
——–
Linda,
“Studies have shown that on average, Black Americans have up 35% admixture with European ancestry–depending on geographic region of the US…”
Come again?
Which study is this? Even the highest areas are not that high; they are around 20 percent. If a study is pulling up 35 percent, I would be wary of their methods since that number is in stark contrast with most studies.
“In Jamaica, we call it like we see it based on skin tone, known family history, or how a person looks.. we are considered a “black” country but we take pride in all our ancestors who helped to create our culture (Native, African, European, Chinese, Indian)…but then again, we have that luxury because we are not minorities in our own country…”
That’s fairly easy for Jamaicans and other Caribbeans to do since they are descended from a much smaller group of people than are black Americans. You can’t really “call it like you see it” when people are coming from very different backgrounds.
———-
FG,
“17 percent isn’t that mixed.”
Says you, right? 😉
I agree that it isn’t enough to have much of an effect on phenotype, but it is indeed “mixed” becausei it is distinctly higher than those of “pure” populations.
“Besides, the Euro-ancestry isn’t evenly distributed in the black population. A minority has a good deal of European admixture (e.g. Islandgirl) while the rest has little.”
Actually, no. That’s a myth. The 25th-75th percentile of blacks have been 12-25 percent; i.e. the majority. Those with admixture levels above that are a minority, as are those with admixture below that.
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abagond, can you fix the formatting, please?
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@FG
Recognizing that one has significant ancestry from multiple groups is one thing, saying you are “multi-racial” is another. The second concept is firmly based on the idea that there are specific “breeds” of humanity when there aren’t.
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Color of Luv:
Please use italics correctly. See my Commenting page:
You made some mistake that created an italics hell on this thread.
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@ Abagond,
I realize when you “look” at my coding efforts to italicize and bold properly, you may see a “coding error”; however, I can asssure you I have them memorized.
italics
bold
Perhaps a miskey? Have you seen this before? Also, if you could show me what my “input details” look like, that may help. Once again, I am only italicizing and bolding the same way consistently as illustrated by the examples above.
I promise I am consistently following these intructions:
Italics: Put at the beginning of what you want to italicize and at the end. So if you type Vogue, it will appear as Vogue.
Boldface: Put at the beginning of what you want to make bold and at the end. So if you type Jasmin it will appear as Jasmin.
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@ Abagond,
you can delete my “test’ post. I really don’t know what I did to wreak havoc on the thread. Not sure if your analysis on the code revealed any specific error.
You made some mistake that created an italics hell on this thread.
Once again, my apologies. Not intentional at all. (I still think it was some sort of but created by a pattern of ‘enter’, backspace, re-type, re-enter code for italics.)
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There has been an italics hell before. Seems it was a miskey like you said.
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CoL do you switch between Portuguese and English on you’re keyboard alot? It could be that you’ve left Portuguese on and hit a diacritical which combines with the “e” in”em”.
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Linda,
It sounds like you have some “stick it to the man” ish going on–sorry, I can’t cosign that. If you are related to some White person who won’t admit it and want to “confront” them, good for you. But taking it up with White people as a group doesn’t make sense.
Most people don’t feel a significant “connection” to long-ago ancestors (read: people who were dead before they were born)–race doesn’t change that.
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@Jasmin,
“It sounds like you have some “stick it to the man” ish going on–sorry, I can’t cosign that. If you are related to some White person who won’t admit it and want to “confront” them, good for you. But taking it up with White people as a group doesn’t make sense.”
Jasmin,
not sure what you mean by your above statement…I know most of my relatives on the island and 3 continents (white, black, & in between, the mixed-chinese ones too)
…but it seems we are missing each other, you haven’t grasped what I’ve been trying to say…so I am going to leave this topic alone….
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Natasha,
I can’t find the source but I think Seattle, Washington is where studies were claiming 35% admixture…but like you say, it’s all subjective based on how the studies are conducted…
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@ Linda –
I am not talking about genes, I am talking about attitudes
Many Americans could definitely use an attitude adjustment regarding race, ethnicity and prejudice; Moreover, when it comes to “self-imposed” segregation. This is why I said in an earlier statement: “How can one choose a path of separatism or segregation when one’s own loved ones – immediate family, extended family, and friends are not bound by racial definitions? The more that these ‘man-made boundaries’ of racial classification are blurred in America’s society, the more people will begin to open their minds. It is unfortunate that there are so many in this society who choose to leave their blinders on.
You have the benefit of having come from a place where “reality” was different for you. In America, the reality is that there are way too many reminders in this society to “put your blinders” back on. Very easy for Americans to do when that is the world with which their familiar. Take the same person and introduce them to a new set of rules in another place – those reminders (ingrained societal rules) to put the blinders on are no longer there.
@ Thad –
I know you say the South of Brazil leans much more towards ethnic classification, but I haven’t witnessed this firsthand. (or I was too young to notice.) I spent a brief time in Porto Alegre and Gramado at age 17. Aside from the obvious German influence, I never saw it as anything like here in America. (To me, America is almost dictatorial in its classification = let me shove this in your face and I will tell you what you are. Now, check one of the boxes! What did you say you were again?) If America were a single conscious mind, it would need one hell of a therapist!!!
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Linda says,
I am not American, but I do live here now and like I said, I do understand the concept of the mindset…
and what I see often and don’t like is when other black people (non-Americans) wish to classify and identify with their ethnic group or nationality, black Americans get mad…
such as: when Dominicans say they are not black but latina, or Lala Vasquez says she is Puerto Rican…
I’ve seen and heard the comments “Oh, she thinks she’s better than us”, “She’s still black”…”She don’t look mixed to me” “my mother is lighter than her”….so on and so forth…
The majority of black Americans I’ve known have the one drop attititude,…They are not “OK” with people of colour choosing “other”
laromana says,
Linda, I strongly agree with your comments because I have first hand life experience of the examples you’ve given.
It is important for American Blacks to understand that Afrolatinos, AfroCarribeans, and Black Africans are not trying to DENY their Black ancestry when they acknowledge their individual cultures/customs in the way they choose to classify themselves.
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Thank you, Color O’ Luv, someone understands my ramblings…
When I came to US, I was surprised by the level of prejudice of both black and white Americans (especially towards immigrants)…must admit I expected it from white but surprised by blacks….of course, there is an exception to everything and I’ve met some really great people who weren’t interested in conforming to “group think”
I think Americans need to travel more…
Being a black woman, I deal with the same prejudice and stereotypes as black Americans do…no one knows I’m Jamaican until I open my mouth…so I’m just calling it as I see it.
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Linda, I agree there is prejudice against immigrants, but I think you are being unfair to black Americans in regards to race. Besides, I hardly think other countries’ racial classifications are much of an improvement on the U.S.’s. They are based too much on what a person is “supposed” to look like given a certain background, and essentially becomes too much like colorism and other isms.
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@ Linda –
For sure! ! ! The level of tangible and overt prejudice by so many different people here in the U.S. is the manifestation of simple Hypocrisy.
Travel is a true eye opener. Unfortunately, this should be more than simple stop overs at Tourist-Ville. I think it really requires extended stay and cultural immersion to really break down those “learned socio-psychological barriers” one develops in a mono-cultural experience.
Also – don’t worry about somebody not understanding what you’re trying to say. It happens to me all the time! LOL That is part of the problem with expressing oneself clearly when writing. I hope I am getting better.
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@CoL
Well, as Darcy Ribeiro points out, Americans tend to think dichotically and somewhat fanatically about everything. They have a very low tolerance for ambiguity, which is something Brazil definitely cultivates.
But the people here who classify themselves ethnically tend to not classify themselves as hyphenated anything: they ARE German or Italian, not italo-brasileiros.
@Linda,
When my wife goes to the States, she’s generally well-received by everyone, because most people thinks she’s a black American. When it’s revealed that she’s Brazilian, however, she tends to get sh** from both blacks and whites.
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“When my wife goes to the States, she’s generally well-received by everyone, because most people thinks she’s a black American. When it’s revealed that she’s Brazilian, however, she tends to get sh** from both blacks and whites.”
Why? Americans seem to stereotype Brazilians as sex workers. Does this have something to do with it?
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“Recognizing that one has significant ancestry from multiple groups is one thing, saying you are “multi-racial” is another. The second concept is firmly based on the idea that there are specific “breeds” of humanity when there aren’t.”
I think “mixed race” implies that race is biological. “Multi-racial” tends to be more favored these days because it lacks this connotation. It does mention race, but race can be thought of as either biological or sociological.
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@Natasha,
“Besides, I hardly think other countries’ racial classifications are much of an improvement on the U.S.’s. They are based too much on what a person is “supposed” to look like given a certain background, and essentially becomes too much like colorism and other isms.”
Natasha, you’re right about that…in Jamaica (other Islands too) for sure, colourism is a problem…but we all know that racially, we are African-descended, and no one gives you crap or a dirty look for acknowledging your other racial mixtures (no matter what you look like)
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” Besides, I hardly think other countries’ racial classifications are much of an improvement on the U.S.’s. They are based too much on what a person is “supposed” to look like given a certain background…”
Actually, they tend not to be based on what a person is “supposed” to look like. This is more of an American thing. They’re based on what a person does look like.
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FG, you misread my statement. You agree with me.
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It does mention race, but race can be thought of as either biological or sociological.
Yeah, but it still ends up being essentialist and determinist, which are the roots of racism.
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^Whoops! That wasn’t Darcy Ribeiro, but Oracy Nogueira. [blush]
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[…] Is Africa backward? – a perfect example of vertical thinking. I did not understand how terrible it was till I tried, as an exercise, to write the very same post about Black Americans. […]
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