Does the Bible say that slavery is wrong? Yes, but not straight out.
The Bible has been used to argue both for and against slavery. A clear case of that was in America in the early 1800s. Just as with prohibition and abortion later on, many who opposed slavery did so for religious reasons.
Yet slave owners had their own choice Bible verses by which to defend their actions. But it was, in effect, a derailing tactic:
- Anyone who seriously reads the Bible knows it is not just a trick bag of verses. A battle of the verses is completely the wrong level at which to settle the issue.
- Despite their carefully chosen Bible verses, slave owners knew deep down that what they were doing was wrong from a Christian point of view. Why else their need to look down on black people?
Reading and understanding the Bible is something that takes a lifetime. I used to think the Bible was just a pack of lies, but that was before I read the whole thing for myself from end to end. It is too easy to take it the wrong way if you just read bits of it. The Bible has to be read in full. Not all of it is meant to be taken literally and there is often more then one layer of meaning.
Further, as a Catholic I do not believe in private interpretation. It is way too easy for people to read the Bible in a way that excuses their sins. I have seen that with my own eyes. In America you saw that in the 1800s with slave owners and you see it now with some homosexuals.
That does not mean I read the Bible with my brain turned off. Hardly. But what it does mean is that if I disagree with the Church over some point of doctrine because of my reading and understanding of the Bible, I assume the Church is way more likely to be right – it has been doing the Bible thing way longer than I have. It is like when you are 14 and you think you know more than your parents – well, the truth is, you do not. Your parents have lived much longer and so, in most cases, they are that much more likely to be right.
Many Catholic societies have practised owning slaves, owning people as property: Roman, Brazilian, Haitian, etc. But most have not. And, so far as I know, popes have never defended the practice and have often condemned it. But as with adultery and bad government, they are not out to save society but to save souls.
The Bible nowhere clearly condemns slavery, polygamy or infanticide and yet most Christians through most of history believed those things were wrong. Why? Because they go against the moral understanding of the world that the Christian Bible gives you. The best way to express it in a few words: We are all sinners yet we are all God’s children.
See also:
- external link:
- George Bourne: A Condensed Anti-Slavery Bible Argument (1845) – see how people in the US used the Bible for against slavery back in slaves times
- Derailing for Dummies
- “It was the times!”
- How White America got rich – this post grew out of a comment I started writing there
- Why whites are blind to their racism
- Christianity
- Catholic
- Protestant – in particular read the bit about sola scriptura
i’ve been hoping you would do a post on this issue for some time now.
i personally don’t think people should be using the Bible to argue anything political, its a guide for how you, the individual are supposed to live…anyone can use the Bible to argue either side because the Bible contradicts itself and some verses are just vague enough to fit various arguments into it.
I mean 40 years ago they were using the Bible to condemn and support interracial marriage….
I am currently reading the Bible myself, as I went agnostic a few years ago…i have no plans to ever return to a pentecostal church (i hate conservative churches, so full of ignorance)…i am against organized religion/churches, but i am regaining my faith slowly….maybe once i go in strong, i will go to a non-denominational church. So i guess, i do believe in individual interpretation of the Bible…although I do understand your point about private interpretation, to me, just going with what a pastor says is just as bad as trying to justify away your sins…Bible reading is important. Church is just a supplement to it in my opinion…i could be right, i could be wrong…i just know that when i play “follow the leader” its what partly caused me to become agnostic in the first place.
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What? Moral relativism from Abagond? 😀
A text that makes appologies for slavery “needs to be read in full”…?
Belief that one of the organiztions most responsible for justifying the African slave trade is, in fact, ultimately responsible for interpreting God’s word…? (I guess it was just the times, eh?)
I’m tweaking Abagond not because I’m anti-Catholic or think he’s a hypocrite (I live in the largest Catholic country in the world and I think we all are hypocrites). I’m tweaking him because he’s a very insightful man when it comes to other folks’ moral rationalizations, which he has no qualms in tearing apart, mercilessly.
My personal feeling is that if the Bible wasn’t THE BIBLE, but simply some work of purported history by some anonymous white guy, vindicated by a political party that was heavily involved in the African slave trade and which is still pretty damned racist (how many PoC of color are Catholics these days versus how many Cardinals?), Abagond would be jumping up and down on it with both feet.
But because someone has convinced him, somehow, that this is God’s holy writ, duly interpretted by his representative on Earth, Abagond is willing to do all those things he criticizes others of doing when it comes to looking at history or their families or what have you.
Black Christians have been brainwashed by a religion that was historically used to justify, promote and physcially enact the enslavement of their ancestors.
It seems to me that Black Christians should think about this: the feeling of anger and insult you feel right now reading those words in the paragraph above is on a par with the feelings your average white Norwegian American from Minnestoa feels when he’s told how he and his family are responsible for slavery.
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The impact of the Bible is proof that it is, in fact, possible to fool almost all of the people almost all of the time.
P.T. Barnum was wrong. He said “There’s a sucker born every minute.”
He underestimated by a mile. There are lots of suckers born every second.
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I had a Jewish professor who was teaching Middle Eastern studies. say that there was a mode of thought that the Jewish people had not come to the point in time to return to Israel. That the biblical circumstances had not occurred. That the Zionist were wrong.
The Old Testament is continuing to be studied by the people it was written for. Their studies can lead to different conclusions than Christians. It has been over a longer time than the Christian Church has existed.
Most of the discussion of slavery is in the Old Testament, which deals with the nature and traditions of the Hebrews. Even though Christianity began as a reformation of Judaism and kept a few of the traditions of the Hebrews especially the nature of God, I don’t think that to look to the Old Testament as a moral guide in the use of slavery would be the correct thing for Christians to do.
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The bible condones slavery and even St Paul advises a slave to return back to his master.
The reason why the bible supports slavery because in those days it was not the ‘repugnant’ thing that it was now.
I think it is suggested that from the Judaeo-Christian tradition is the Essenes who ‘refused’ to own slaves.
Finally and on the bible it is very important to understand how the bible is put together. If one understand this, then it is clear that the bible is NOT a complete book, nor was it ever meant to be.
I said it on another post and I will say it again here. At some point in time, maybe not my lifetime I expect there to be the question:
Is it possible to be Black and Christian??
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Not all of it is meant to be taken literally and there is often more then one layer of meaning.
This is VERY important.
Maybe that’s just my own faith, but I don’t think many of those things should be taken literally. Some, yes, but not everything. That is my understanding of it, and that’s my faith. I don’t know, maybe it’s the general view of Orthodox churches, but that’s the way I understand faith and Bible. However, I must add that my parents were atheists and my husband is agnostic, and I don’t know many people who are believers (except for my best friend).
On the other hand, I understand what you’re saying about the individual interpretations, but it’s impossible not to have individual interpretation.
In any case, it’s not individual interpretation of Bible (or any other holy book) that I’m afraid of: it’s the official one that can do more harm.
I’m not saying all official interpretations are bad, or most of them, or anything like that. But they are more powerful and can make more people behave according to them.
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I agree with Hathor… The Old Testament and New Testament are two different books entirely. (Now add the book of Mormon? – uh, no thank you.)
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what people don’t undestand is that the “slavery,” or what is translated as slavery in the bible is NOT the same as chattel slavery. Joseph was a slave and rose through the ranks because slaves were no considered subhuman and in the instances where they were, it is clearly condemened. The bible does not degrade people based off skin tone, in fact in one sequence in the bible God clearly goes against prejudice.
“He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death.” (Exodus 21:16)
But the thing about the bible is, whether you believe it or not. I notice alot of people can take anything and change it into something else to suit their needs. I can look at somtehing from the bible, a passage or verse and take it into the context that I want and completely sway it the way I want and I think that’s basically what people do. I get tired of people turning religion into an institution. I don’t think faith and religion are necessary the same thing in this day and age. There are plenty of people who follow a religion and are anything but in line with God.
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Its’ just a petty thing to me. Why do people need to bash eachother’s religious views to make a political point. Why don’t people just use common sense? Infanticide…come on that’s common sense. It’s humane to harm a child if they can feel pain seperately on their own then its inhumane to me and that’s just my stance. I know there are non-religious people who agree with that. Just common sense is all it takes really…
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I think the Old testament and New Testament are pretty similar if you examine them actually. That’s my opinion.
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On a sidenote, I’m glad to see that you’ve expanded your posting, I like the history/religious posts you do.
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We have to be very careful taht we do not fall back into ‘those were the times’
or a different perspective to that argument,
‘I do not want to criticise the bible, (i.e slavery, because of my love for God)
If we can move beyond both then it should be apparent:
…slavery is slavery, no matter what the form…it is exploitation and denying a human being the fundamental right to be ‘free’ and make ‘choices’.
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Also “Christian,” means to be like Christ. That means a follower or believer in Christ and his teachings who is supposed to exemplify those teachings throughout their daily lives. I don’t know that “Christianity,” was supposed to ever become a seperate religion from Judaism. I think it was a lifestyle, because early on, I mean early on when Christianity was just beginning, before it was recognized by the Roman Empire. The earliest “Christians,” upheld many Jewish traditions and simply believed in the Gospel. Later, it became something totally different. That’s just my opinion.
“Is it possible to be Black and Christian??” Yes.
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J, i think you misunderstood my comment.
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if you were talking about my comment, i don’t know if you were or not.
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“I mean 40 years ago they were using the Bible to condemn and support interracial marriage….”
See that’s my point, alwaysright. Anyone can take anything and sway it in the direction they want. People do that with politics, the bible you name it. People will go in search of whatever they’re looking for until they find some resemblance in the bible and then twist it to their own will and I’m sure people will continue to do that. Degrading one another and people’s beliefs in the process.
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Peanut – The old testament and new testament are quite different, but I want to stick with the purpose or topic as it pertains to Slavery and the Bible.
It has been awhile since I’ve read the bible in its entirety; however, I recall no “support for slavery” in the New Testament. (I will check though…)
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Hi Peanut!!
I was referring to you but specifically the first paragraph only.
Thanks for answering my question from the other post too
about Black and Christian he he he, even if it is meant for a future era from now…
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Interesting link regarding New Testament and slavery:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/sla_bibl2.htm
(good resource for this topic)
Side note: I feel the bible is a spiritual resource; however, I do not take it literally and most certainly do not support “organized religion”.
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No, the Bible really does approve of slavery, even if you torture its definition. You are reading a modern interpretation into the Bible because you don’t like that conclusion.
People do not need God to be good. Human beings have an innate psychological sense of right and wrong that was programmed by evolution to enable social cooperation. People mold their religious views to fit their moral views and not the other way around, but because the idea “religion=morality” is beat into people they assume moral ideas have to come from religion. That is false.
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With regard to your good link ColourofLuv
http://www.religioustolerance.org/sla_bibl2.htm
(good resource for this topic)
I think I have found a tautology – that is one of my jobs here he he he
“In his defense, St. Paul incorrectly expected that Jesus would return in the very near future.
This might have demotivated him from speaking out against slavery or other social evils in the Roman Empire”
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Hmmm. At this site there seems to be a high correlation between blacks who believe whites are inherently racist AND blacks who believe the Bible is the work of some higher authority.
Thus, a willingness to suspend good judgment and believe in myths and superstition abounds. Yikes.
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People who use the Bible to excuse their behaviors are full of it.
Slaveholders/catchers/sympathizers USED (and still do) ANYTHING to relieve themselves of moral responsibility. From declaring blacks as “subhumans” and religious justification, to “we’re just trying to help arguments” etc…they’re just good ol’ cognitive dissonance at work.
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ha ha ha
With regard to
My personal feeling is that if the Bible wasn’t THE BIBLE, but simply some work of purported history by some anonymous white guy, vindicated by a political party that was heavily involved in the African slave trade and which is still pretty damned racist (how many PoC of color are Catholics these days versus how many Cardinals?), Abagond would be jumping up and down on it with both feet.
But because someone has convinced him, somehow, that this is God’s holy writ, duly interpretted by his representative on Earth, Abagond is willing to do all those things he criticizes others of doing when it comes to looking at history or their families or what have you.
Lets be very honest here it is not just Abagond though
And this is why I suggest there will come a time when this same very question you raise will be asked with regard to ‘compatibility’ Ie being Black and Christian.
Not quite yet though, simply because we are not at that stage of consciousness yet…
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Zombie said: People do not need God to be good. Human beings have an innate psychological sense of right and wrong that was programmed by evolution to enable social cooperation. People mold their religious views to fit their moral views and not the other way around, but because the idea “religion=morality” is beat into people they assume moral ideas have to come from religion. That is false.
*****************
I agree!
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To Colorofluv
“I recall no “support for slavery” in the New Testament.”
Luke12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Those were Jesus’s words in red letters in the king James bible.
To abagond
“Reading and understanding the Bible is something that takes a lifetime.”
Not if you use reason and logic, rather then feeling, faith and belief.
“The Bible has to be read in full. Not all of it is meant to be taken literally and there is often more then one layer of meaning.”
I have read the bible, I was a Christian for 23 years. Once I finished reading it, I despised it. Sure there are some good bits like; turn the other cheek, or do unto to others as you would have done unto yourself, but these types of sayings were around long before the bible, even Socrates wrote in 399 BCE.
“One should never do wrong in return, nor mistreat any man, no matter how one has been mistreated by him.”
The Buddha wrote
“Friendship is the only cure for hatred,
the only guarantee of peace.”
Christians act like Jesus had something new and profound to say, when he didn’t.
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The Golden Rule
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Rule
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Ó Dochartaigh –
Thanks for the reply. As soon as I wrote that, I did a little digging and it didn’t take long for me to find that the New Testament indeed makes mention of it.
I also included a link (back under my original) where someone has already done the bulk of the work in disecting the New Testament and slavery.
As for disregarding faith or belief, that is a personal choice. I leave each to their own in terms of “personal experience” and their spirituality. We continue to grow and mature throughout our lives (I would like to think most of us anyway), so I am quite the different person I was at age 9, age 16, age 21, age 39, etc…
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To Peanut
“Its’ just a petty thing to me. Why do people need to bash eachother’s religious views to make a political point.”
During the civil war the south said it was there god given right to own slaves. Would you feel it was petty to bash there religious views to make a political point? Or how about when Muslims blow them selves up for Jihad, killing innocent people, is it then okay to bash someones religious views to make a political point? Peoples religious views deserve bashing when they are full of ignorance, violence and hate.
If someone said I believe that fairies come into my room every night and dance for me, people would think they are crazy and need medicated, but if someone says I believe in a god that sacrificed himself, to himself, to save us from the sins he knew we were bound to have, is ludicrous and deserves bashing.
If people want to believe in a god that is fine but be sensible about it.
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J –
Gotta love the Golden Rule!
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The good book presents a number of problems for me. Chief of which is that it is so confusing. If it’s supposed to be God’s law, which he expects us to follow to the letter, wouldn’t he want to be irrefutably clear about his expectations? It shouldn’t be open to interpretation by man who is infallible and can read whatever he wants into it. Not when the stakes are so high – as in heaven or hell. If it’s supposed to be a guide for all times, why is it silent about some of the most important issues of our day like abortion and homosexuality? Many Christians I know would tell me it’s a “mystery” and to have faith – but I feel that’s a cop out. If God created us, he also created our minds with which we use reason. Therefore, why would an all knowing omnipresent being create a document that flies in the face of that reason? If God’s aim is to have us know and love him, why all the mind games?
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To Poetess
Well Said!
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O Dochartaigh –
I have a question for you, but this probably isn’t the best place for it as I’m going off topic and on to “belief” systems independent of slavery. I’ll be posing my question for you in the thread titled “Black Brazil in the black gringo gaze”. There was some interaction there that touched on the African roots of religions such as Candomble, Umbanda, VooDoo, Santeria, Macumba, etc… It will tie in a bit more there I believe.
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In the Old Testament, I thought that the only thing that God said that was law, were the Ten Commandments. All else was what God required of the Hebrews and a few individuals, some recorded history, traditions and Hebrew Law.
Personally I was done, when Satan tempted Eve, after some year later I realized the ramification of that story.
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Wow, Abagond. I never guessed you were a homophobe.
😦
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The British Museum has amazing exhibits that correlates and supports the Bible and it’s stories. What Abagond says is true. It’s a deep book that has to be read many times. Each time, you learn something that can impact your life for good.
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Leviticus is a great place to look at the Bible’s contradictions and those of the people who believe that the book is absolute, unambiguous law.
Now, this is the chapter that sez men who lie down with men should be killed, folks (if we’re gonna take the Bible literally, that means god has nothing to say about lesbianism and blow-jobs, but I digress).
It’s ALSO that chapter of the Bible which enjoins us not to eat pork, not to shave our beards, to burn witches, to circumcize our sons, to stone adulteresses (but not adulterers), and to not touch women in any way, shape, or form while they are menstruating.
Now, every single rule in that chapter has been tossed out the window by Christians EXCEPT the rule against men lying down with men. Ask a Christian to explain why this is sometime. They’ll perform some rhetorical gymnastics involving St. Paul and the Council of Jerusalem which will make you appreciate Bill Clinton’s views on what does and does not constitute sexual intercourse as a model of forthrightness. 😀
Here’s how I see it: you’re a CHRISTIAN (as opposed to a Jew or a Paulite)? SHOW ME where Christ enjoins us to eschew homosexuality.
One phrase. Anywhere.
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Adultery is more complex. The Jews understood “Thou shalt not commit adultery” very differently than Church tradition. It only applied to men if they had intercourse with someone else’s wife. But it was allowable for a married man to have intercourse with a single woman. Adultery was the sin of “trespassing” on a man’s property. Until marriage women were the property of their fathers. After marriage they became the property of their husband.
Women were considered property. Adultery was a violation of the husbands’ property rights, not morality, and polygyny was the standard. Jesus taught that women should be equal, but didn’t address the reason other than to be equal rather than a possession.
It is interesting that adultery was considered a sin for women. But concubinage (women as breeders) and polygyny (men could have many wives, but a woman only one husband) were acceptable. The capturing of women in battle and forcing them to be wives and levirate marriage (if a man’s brother died without heirs, the man had to marry his dead brother’s wife and have children by her to perpetuate the deceased brother’s name) were also seemingly acceptable biblical practices.
http://www.libchrist.com/bible/adultery.html
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Good post, but one question —
What does it mean that the Bible condemns homosexuality? Does it mean that they should not have equal rights to other citizens?
What about the separation between church and state?
I have no problem with your interpretation of the Bible, but I do not believe that it should be imposed on society at large. Not saying that this is what you are trying to do, but it seems that many religious folks want to take the Bible literally and impose their interpretation on non-believers.
By the way, the Bible also condemns Sabbath breaking, eating pork, disrespecting parents, divorce, etc. Why pick and choose what the Bible says vis-a-vis what is right or wrong?
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Slavery in Biblical times was more about servant hood, not about one race dominating and oppressing another. People became slaves to pay off debts, escape poverty and famine or just to earn a living.
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XKCD has a great take on God in today’s strip…
http://xkcd.com/709/
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Joker, read some history of slavery. It’s not as you portray it.
Yes, slavery WAS different back then. No, servanthood and slavery were not all that different from each other and you can bet your lil’ Christian booties that it was about one people lording it over another. Read about the Jews’ sojourn in Egypt or Babylon, for example.
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With regard to:
Good post, but one question —
What does it mean that the bible condemns homosexuality? Does it mean that they should not have equal rights to other citizens?
Not quite a tautology this time round, but you have in fact answered the very question, you seek an answer to
Bible condemns homosexuality=should they NOT have equal rights to other citizens =pariah
However, there are a group of religious christians who are keen to wrestle the bible away from what they see as fundemntalism that would involve the issue of homosexuality too.
http://www.johnshelbyspong.com/bishopspongon_homosexuality.aspx
This would then take us on to a different subject matter altogether ie fundamentalism and the bible’
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And there is a funny story that the Black Nationalist like to refer to.
When the Hebrews were slaves in Egypt and they were escaping the wicked-hand of Pharaoh the Hebrews still had time to leave with their own slaves
Slaves(Hebrews) being enslaved (Egyptians)=Slaves (being owned by Hebrews)
Sounds like I have got myself in my own tautology ha ha
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The Jewish experience in Babylon and Egypt was cruel because they were pagan nations. They,like the slave traders made people slaves because of their race. It wasn’t because of crime or debt (punishment or to pay off debt). When Paul speaks about slaves returning to their master, he wasn’t speaking about people who had been kidnapped and put into bondage. Under Jewish law, the owner should have been put to death and the slave freed.
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The old testament laws applied only to the Israelites. As they were a chosen nation, their physical, emotional and spiritual well being had to be protected at all costs. Reason? God made a promise to Abraham that Jesus would come through him. The whole theme was preparation for the arrival of Jesus who would save the world. HE had to take drastic and strict measures to make sure the Israelites would stay pure spiritually and to keep their focus on Jesus’ arrival. (like the passover lamb eaten with no bones broken would remind them that Jesus was the sacrifical lamb who died with no bones broken). After J came, the Mosaic Law was finished, The new Law removed circumcision, sacrifices, stoning for adultery.etc. Just a few laws remained..No homosexuality, murder, etc. And this rearrangement would apply to all nations who listened, not exclusively the Jews.
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Sitting on the bus tthis morning, riding up to Macaé, I’ve been thinking about this blog.
I’ve been wondering how all these intelligent people here can buy the bulls#$t of christianity.
I mean, I can see having faith in God. I can even see believing in Jesus. I can even go as far as to see people reading the Bible and extracting what they feel is good from it and calling themselves Christians.
What I cannot see, for the life of me, is how a bunch of smart people end up basically doing intellectual donuts on the lawn by arguing that some blow-dried, polyester-suited pastor or a repressed transexual in a white robe and conehead hat has the inner skinny on what God is thinking and will impart said wisdom if only we keep ponying up the money.
I have read the Bible. Several times. parts of it are interesting and worthwhile. Most of it is gobbledy-gook spewed out by tripping desert nomads to a people whose culture we can barely relate to, let alone follow.
So why do otherwise smart people seem to have this burning need to believe that this poorly written, crappily translated and incomplete collection of texts is GOD’S LITERAL BLUEPRINT FOR LIFE?
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Religion is the opium of the people – I wonder who said that??
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I think I should also say that from the Black Nationalist perspective for those who study history.
They will say there is absolutely no evidence, either
on any of the Egyptian monuments, or anywhere else in the world, that suggests the Hebrews were slaves in Egypt, except in the book of Exodus
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Religion is the opium of the people – I wonder who said that??
Sounds like a goddamned commie to me!
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With regard to:
“After Jesus came, the Mosaic Law was finished, The new Law removed circumcision, sacrifices, stoning for adultery etc”
There are some Christian groups that believe the Sabbath day command which is part of the Mosaic law is still valid today, along with the ten commandments.
And they argue what Jesus came to do was in fact the following when he said:
“Think not that I am come to destroy the [Mosaic] law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled”.
Matthew 5:17
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And still while we are on this theme, but this time from a different ‘perspective’ but still in the remit of Christianity.
This is why people say it is Paul who founded Christianity, and why he was also opposed by Jesus brother and his group the Ebionites
http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/paul/je.htm
Even if this is rejected what cannot be rekjected is the tension between Paul and the original disciples and even Paul and Barnabas – These are biblical stories
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I think that Paul is actually one of the greatest bastards of all time.
Most people who say that their Chritians are actually paulites, but don`t realize that.
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What makes him such a bastard?
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He basically hijacked Christianity and hacked it.
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It could also be argued as some have done that without Paul ‘co-opting’ the Judaic religion, there would be no belief in Christ today because of all those Judaic rules that was alluded to earlier. To put it simply ‘Gentiles’ would have refused to convert.
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Another perspective
Paul as a Gnostic whch in essence would reduce him to a mystical writer
So for instance a quote like:
“I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable” 1 Corinthians 15:50
…would not refer to dying in this life and later going to heaven but rather something like being re-born on the spiritual/meta-physical plane, and leaving the world of matter (or materialness) behind
The Gnostic Paul: Gnostic Exegesis of the Pauline letters by Elaine H. Pagels
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=gYaHsWX_UpIC&dq=Paul+the+Gnostic&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=N7OOS6f7Co-RjAeK9vSxCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false
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Obviously the Bible was written by some ignorant people, who, nevertheless, were able to hoodwink billions of people over many generations.
If the Bible were to truly contain wisdom handed down from some higher plane, it should have a few words about science and math. Some insights into chemistry, physics, biology, and an explanation of calculus.
Not a word, however, about these subjects, which have brought huge improvements to mankind.
Meanwhile, what makes Christianity different from Scientology?
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“We have men sold to build churches, women sold to support the gospel, and babes sold to purchase Bibles for the poor heathen, all for the glory of God and the good of souls. The slave auctioneer’s bell and the church-going bell chime in with each other, and the bitter cries of the heart-broken slave are drowned in the religious shouts of his pious master. Revivals of religion and revivals in the slave trade go hand in hand. ” ~Fredrick Douglass
“….is it possible to be black and christian?”
yes, of course.
can people be hypocrites? can people be brainwashed? can people support their own demise? of course.
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One scientifically sound verse in the Bible is Isaiah 40:22 which mentions the circle of the earth.
That might not mean much to us as we know the earth is round but back then, it was assumed the earth was flat.
Leviticus 11:6 also mentions the hare being a chewer of the cud. This was greatly disputed for centuries untill William Cowper observed it. (See the Proceedings of The Zoological Society of London, Volume 110, Series A,page 159-1630
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There is an occasional opinion offered that an early statement of a spherical earth occurs in the 8th century BC, in Isaiah 40:22 “It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth…”.[10] To support this claim one must address the issue that the Hebrew word translated as “circle” is generally recognized as referring to a plane figure (perhaps the horizon), or possibly the vault of the heavens rather than the shape of the earth.[11]
A secondary issue is that this text is part of Deutero-Isaiah, often ascribed to the 6th century BC (and thus roughly contemporaneous with Pythagoras).[12]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth
And again
Coversely
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth
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On a prophetic level, the book of Daniel and Revelation is deeply prophetic. I have read these books many many times so the understanding of the all symbolism is fully complete. 100 % crystal clear.
One chapter which was interesting was Daniel Chapter 8. especially verse 8. which speaks about a goat with a broken horn and 4 more came up.
History shows that Alexander the Great died at his prime and 4 generals took over and divided the kingdom by 4.
This I know because verse 21 and 22 states this goat represented the King of Greece and 22 brings out that Greece would not be divided by his power(meaning his progeny would not take over) Daniel 11:4 also supports this.
This was written HUNDREDS of years before Alexander the Great was born…
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The Hebrew word used originally was “Chugh” I think which meant circle, perhaps sphere.
The Bible also descibes the earth” hanging upon nothing” Since mankind was not flying in space at the time, it would have been odd to use the word ” Chugh” which ties in with the shape of a circle when people could only see the world as flat at the time.
The point of the Bible in the end was not to promote science, mathematics, finances, to cook, be healthy etc
It was written mainly to promote spiritual well being and provide hope to people who know this world’s pain and suffering is only temporary and God will end it soon and PERMANENTLY. Rev 21;1-4
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To Grenda
“The Bible also descibes the earth hanging upon nothing”.
The Bible also says the foundation of the earth sits upon pillars. So you have just shown one contradiction between 1st Samuel and Job.
“On a prophetic level, the book of Daniel and Revelation is deeply prophetic.”
The Muslims say the same about there holy Quran.
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I knew you were Catholic! You seem very Catholic in your writing. I think that is one thing that makes your blog so interesting, reading about the black experience in a Catholic tone.
Thank you for this important and beautiful post. Amen, brother.
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Not really O’ Dochartaigh
The chapter in Job speaks metaphorically. He mentions mountains moving, making the earth shake, around the stars He puts a seal…
So the speech used here is like us saying, “I’ve travelled to the ends of the earth”
Whereas the verse “hanging upon nothing “would have been a very radical statement to use when people would not see from space. Event to come up with that idea or concept and tp write it down would have been odd.
The Quran might be prophetic but as we are speaking about the Bible and it’s authenticity, i merely wanted to draw attention to how the book of Daniel prophesies about Alexander The Great so accurately hundreds of years before he was born.
Can anyone explain that? There are several other points made about Alexander the Great as well. and other people ane events
Ezekiel 26:4,12 =Alexander used rubble from mainland city of Tyre to build a causeway to the island city which he destroyed.
Jeremiah 51:26 describes Babylon as a desolate waste,never to be rebuilt to time indefinite= Alexander had plans to build Babyon as his capital but he died.
The next person who had grandiose plans to rebuild Babylon was Saddam Hussain..And we all know what happened to him……………
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grenda, you wrote:
“It was written mainly to promote spiritual well being and provide hope to people who know this world’s pain and suffering is only temporary and God will end it soon and PERMANENTLY. Rev 21;1-4”
Oh. So it — the Bible — “was written to promote spiritual well being.”
How did that work out?
Obviously the Bible was written by many different people over many generations, and countless leaders have used the text to coerce people into a range of atrocities.
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grenda, you wrote:
“This was written HUNDREDS of years before Alexander the Great was born.”
Nonsense. The Book of Daniel was written at least 100 years AFTER Alexander the Great died.
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To Grenda
So when it’s wrong it is a metaphor, when it is right is a revelation. I was a Christian for over 22 years, I have read the bible and read it in context; your “prophecies” have been praised and given as proof for thousands of years, and almost every christian generation has said that Jesus would return in there lifetime. But remember Jesus said to his apostles:
Matthew 10:23 ‘When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.’
Mark: 28Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
29So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
30Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
It has been 2,000 years, that generation has passed away, and Christs followers have spread across the whole world not not just “the cities of Israel”. That is Bible prophecy at its finest.
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The Bible is often misquoted and it’s words twisted.
Alexander the great lived in the time of 300 BC but Daniel lived during the Babylonian occupation of the jews and it’s liberation when Cyrus diverted the Euphrates and walked in, as the Babylonians had left their gates open that night.
History states Cyrus came in 539 BC and conquered Babylon.
Coincidentally, this is also prophesied in Isaiah
44.27.. I will dry up your rivers
45:1..I will leave the gates open
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To Grenda
Many historians agree that the last half of the Book of Daniel particularly chapters 7-12 were not written until the beginning of the first century BCE.
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To Grenda
“The Bible is often misquoted and it’s words twisted”.
I agree Christians do it all the time. Regardless, this forum was about biblical slavery not prophecy.
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The thing with the Bible is that people are easy to dismiss it or not bother with it because in the end, they don’t want to know. They don’t want to be held acountable for their actions and want lead their life the way they want to without thinking about the consequences
The fact that we have to answer to a higher being spoils all the fun for them, plain and simple. They’s have to rein in their behavior the same way a child has to when his mother’s eyes are on him.
2 Peter 3: 3-6 speaks plainly about the last days and how there would be ridiculers with their ridicule proceeding to their own desires, saying, “Where is this promised presence of his? Things are proceeding exactly as the beginning of time”
But just as in Noah’s day, people were doing zilch. All they had to do was walk into the ark. But they wanted to live their life without factoring God into the equation. they didn’t want to accountable but they paid for it with their lives.
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Grenda:
I agree.
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This is perhaps a way of over-simplifed version of things, but I would like to say there are people who are not religious but who are equally if not more so than Christians, rrespective whether it is the last days or not.
I am aware of the idea that you have to be saved through ‘Jesus Christ’ and also “Not everyone who says to Me, “Lord, Lord,” shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven’
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Drat!!! multi-tasking and not doing very well
Act 2, take 2 he he he he
I wanted to type the following:
This is perhaps an over-simplification of things.
I would like to say there are people who are not religious but who are equally if not more so ‘spiritual’, do more ‘good works’ etc than Christians, irrespective whether it is the last days or not.
I am also aware of the idea that you have to be saved through ‘Jesus Christ’ and also at the same time: “Not everyone who says to Me, “Lord, Lord,” shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven’
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One scientifically sound verse in the Bible is Isaiah 40:22 which mentions the circle of the earth.
That might not mean much to us as we know the earth is round but back then, it was assumed the earth was flat.
Grenda, that isn’t a presumption that the world is a globe: it’s a presumption that the world is circular. Back in the day, the Christians made maps with the world as a circle with Jerusalem in the middle. (Because the Bible also says that the Jerusalem lies at the middle of the Earth).
The thing with the Bible is that people are easy to dismiss it or not bother with it because in the end, they don’t want to know.
No, Grenda. We tend to dismiss it because Christians like yourself claim that gobbledy-gook like the Book of Daniel is clear-as-a-bell prophecy. Let me give you a bit of advice? NEVER go to fortune teller, because with your credulity when it comes to what constitutes proof of successful prophecy, you`ll be wrapped right around their finger in no time.
They don’t want to be held acountable for their actions and want lead their life the way they want to without thinking about the consequences.
Oh really?
Let`s examine that statement a moment.
In order to feel accountable, you need to imagine a big man (or whatever) in the sky (or wherever) who'll punish you if you're a Bad Girl.
Me, on the other hand… All I need to do is to think about the probable results of my actions in the here and now and act accordingly.
Who's more accountable, Grenda? Who's REALLY thinking about the consequences? The person who's attempting to mold their life based on an incoherent and contradictory book written for desert nomads 2000 years ago and thinks it's OK to be prejudiced against his gay neighbor? Or the person who clearly sees his gay neighbor as the good, productive man he is?
Sorry, Grenda. Christians have no call to lecture me about accountability and consequences.
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abagond, the fact that you claimed to once have been a Marxist… and a corporate banker… and now a good Catholic… Well, I`m sorry, man, but I don`t think that what you`re seeking in this life is truth: it’s AUTHORITY.
You seemed starved for it.
Not an ad hominem, seriously: simply an observation.
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To J
“I would like to say there are people who are not religious but who are equally if not more so ’spiritual’, do more ‘good works’ etc than Christians, irrespective whether it is the last days or not.”
I agree
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@TB,
No, he’s searching for Truth. And if he’s Catholic, then he’s found it. 😉
He’s too creative and inquisitive to be searching for mere authority. Although we all like to relax under a bit of authority, now and then. We can’t always be leading; sometimes it’s nice to be able to sit down and have a cup of tea.
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To Grenda
“The fact that we have to answer to a higher being spoils all the fun for them, plain and simple. They’s have to rein in their behavior the same way a child has to when his mother’s eyes are on him.’
When I was a Christian, I drank and smoked Marijuana and partied, and then I would go to church and pray and ask god to forgive me for my sinful ways. But I felt a wasn’t a good enough Christian so I read the bible; upon reading the bible and reading the horrible things that god commands: murder, genocide, infanticide, slavery, and racism among many other atrocities, I realized that I am more moral then this book. I stopped drinking and partying started living life to the fullest and stopped treating this life like a waiting room.
And now I don’t apologize for slavery like Christians do, my morals are higher then that.
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No, he’s searching for Truth. And if he’s Catholic, then he’s found it.
He’s too creative and inquisitive to be searching for mere authority. Although we all like to relax under a bit of authority, now and then. We can’t always be leading; sometimes it’s nice to be able to sit down and have a cup of tea.
He`s searching for absolutes.
Big secret: they don’t exist.
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Y’know, when I talk to devout Catholics, they’re usually one of two types of people:
1) People who the Church got young and who can’t conceive of thinking about God independent of ecclesiastical authority.
2) People who found the Church later in life in the same way they’d buy a car. Y’know: “Reliable… got good mileage…”
I’ve never met a Catholic yet who could offer a clear, rational explanation of why the Churches’ dogma is superior to any other interpretation of the Bible without resorting to Authority.
If you guys have to do it on logic your own, you’re sunk. And I speak as a man who’s hung out with a LOT of Jesuits.
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grenda, you wrote:
“The thing with the Bible is that people are easy to dismiss it or not bother with it because in the end, they don’t want to know. ”
The Bible is a book of fiction that has been used to fool people for thousands of years. Other than mentioning a few reasonable principles to live by, it offers almost nothing.
You wrote:
“They don’t want to be held acountable for their actions and want lead their life the way they want to without thinking about the consequences.”
Accountable? Consequences? Here’s a news flash. After you die, you are dead and that’s that.
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As far as I know the slaves refered in Bible, were those who would deliberatly sell themselves to masters when they could not afford to live by themselves. Many of them because of debts, so they would stay with masters until they were able to payoff all it; besides masters would provide them food and shelter.
Nowadays we would call that “employees”, because like them:
-We work for “masters”(wealthier people);
-We need to pay our lifetime debt, until you retire (Unless you’re an heir);
-Our master provides us money(equivalent to shelter, food, etc) if we follow their rules.
So slavery in those days did not mean kidnapping of people from their homes.
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To D&nni
Look very closely at these verses.
Leviticus 25: 45-46
45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and THEY SHALL BE YOUR POSSESSION.
46And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; THEY SHALL BE YOUR BONDMEN FOR EVER: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.
So basically it is okay to enslave people that are not Jews.
Or when Jesus says in Luke 12:46-47
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, SHALL BE BEATEN WITH MANY STRIPES.
I don’t think you can own, beat or pass on your “employees” to your children. They were slaves plan and simple.
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Plane and simple.
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“Accountable? Consequences? Here’s a news flash. After you die, you are dead and that’s that.”
well, hey for your own sake… you better hope you’re right. Because if you’re wrong…lol well that’s just gonna suck for you. that’s som real truth right there. plain and simple.
This debate could go on forever, people will talk and talk and it will never get resolved. the point is though, chattel slavery or enslavement of black people was in no way permitted in the bible and people who try to say it is, are just going to say what they’re going to say.
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Obviously the Bible was written by some ignorant people, who, nevertheless, were able to hoodwink billions of people over many generations.
They should have went into business! Think of how great business would be if they could hoodwink generations of unsuspecting people, after all, there’s a sucker born every minute! Whoever wrote it was anything but ‘ignorant’! Whoever wrote the bible had better PR acumen then you do. Jealous?
If the Bible were to truly contain wisdom handed down from some higher plane, it should have a few words about science and math. Some insights into chemistry, physics, biology, and an explanation of calculus.
Read the Kamasutra instead! Its got dirty pictures! If you are not into that, read Erik von Daniken’s ‘Chariot of the Gods’.
Meanwhile, what makes Christianity different from Scientology?
About 2,000 years! Didn’t you know that? Besides which, Scientology is not a Christian religion. L. Ron Hubbard, one of the best PR men ever! This post is about slavery and the Bible’s take on it, not whether the Bible is true or not or religion in general.
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Thad said:
“abagond, the fact that you claimed to once have been a Marxist… and a corporate banker… and now a good Catholic… Well, I`m sorry, man, but I don`t think that what you`re seeking in this life is truth: it’s AUTHORITY.
You seemed starved for it.
Not an ad hominem, seriously: simply an observation.”
I was never a corporate banker. I worked for a bank as a computer programmer. There is a huge difference between the two. I think Uncle Milton can back me up on that one.
And, by the way, saying I am starved for authority IS an ad hominem – even if true. You have this habit of assuming that people who do not agree with you have something wrong in the head. If that is how you think then how are you sure that it is not YOU who are screwed up in the head? Not saying you are, but just pointing out a hole in your thinking.
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If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.’ If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)
Notice how they can get a male Hebrew slave to become a permanent slave by keeping his wife and children hostage until he says he wants to become a permanent slave. What kind of family values are these?
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To abagond
I have a hypothetical situation for you.
The year is 2010 and slavery was never abolished, there is a Jewish man, and he purchases you, abagond, legally because his holy book say he can, he tells you to make him dinner, and you burn the food. The Jewish man becomes angry; he picks up his staff and he beats you with it, almost to the point of death but then he stops, and after a few days you recover. In the eyes of God there is no sin in this story because you are his PROPERTY. And since his holy book states that you are his bond man for EVER, you will endure this treatment until the day you die.
How would you feel about this mans holy book?
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I think the “non-Jews” that were slaves of the Jews were the remnant of neighbouring nations who had attacked them.
These pagan nations did not have God’s backing and by attacking the Jews, it was like attacking God himself. They committed a CRIME.
The Bible also speaks about foreigners who willingly joined the Jews.(like some Egyptians when they left Egypt. It mentions Moses marrying a Cushite woman(a Black woman) and other Jews marrying foreigners.
So foreigners were allowed to blend in them. It was only when they were attacked outright from these pagan violent nations that problems occured
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I would think his holy book was written for the benefit of Jews.
That, however, is a bad example. First, this post is not about the Jewish Bible, but the Christian one. Second, by making it about the Jewish Bible you sidestep the very point I make in the last paragraph of the post.
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Two observations:
1. All these comments about the truth of the Bible are beside the point. If I came to a post about the Koran and slavery it would be kind of ignorant, stupid not to say self-absorbed for me to say that the Koran is a pack of lies. What I believe about the Koran is beside the point: the point is that the Koran was believed in societies that practised slavery and so the two have to be squared somehow. The same if there were Scientologist societies that practised slavery – bashing L. Ron Hubbard would be beside the point. Likewise with St. Paul.
2. As the post pointed out a battle of the verses is also beside the point. No one would think that was a proper procedure even with the Encyclopaedia Britannica or the TV Guide which ARE designed to be read in independent bits. If I had enough patience I would write a post called “The TV Guide and slavery” – a satire that I know at least one commenter would completely miss.
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To abagond
Both condone slavery:
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
Replace the Jew with Christian, there is no difference.
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Black&German said:
“I knew you were Catholic! You seem very Catholic in your writing. I think that is one thing that makes your blog so interesting, reading about the black experience in a Catholic tone.
Thank you for this important and beautiful post. Amen, brother.”
🙂
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Another important thing to keep in mind is that there is a difference between an idea and those who say they practise it.
For example, there are plenty of terrible democracies. Does that mean democracy is no good? Not necessarily.
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Ó Dochartaigh
“To abagond
Both condone slavery:
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
Replace the Jew with Christian, there is no difference.”
Wrong. St Paul is quite clear on beating slaves for burnt dinners. If you keep reading to verse 9:
“And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him”
Being a slave master does not give you the moral right to do whatever you want to your slaves. And the broader moral point of the Bible is against slavery.
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The Bible also tells us to obey bad governments. Does that mean that the Bible is for bad government? Hardly. Rather it is a fact of life that many believers will find themselves faced with.
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The Bible is not about social revolution, it is not about making this world a better place. It is not like the Declaration of Independence or the Communist Manifesto. It is about having the right relationship with God.
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abagond, you wrote:
“If I had enough patience I would write a post called “The TV Guide and slavery” – a satire that I know at least one commenter would completely miss.”
That one commenter would be you. The unreliable narrator who has no idea of how deeply he is mistaken. Like a schizophrenic, you offer lengthy explanations that are based on a huge and fundamental flaw.
The amusing but frightening thing about most religious beliefs is the fact that billions of people train themselves to suspend their better judgment to swallow these preposterous stories. However, it appears most humans have a powerful need to deceive themselves, thus they willingly submit to the persuasive effects of Bible stories, told and re-told.
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With regard to:
“I think the “non-Jews” that were slaves of the Jews were the remnant of neighbouring nations who had attacked them….and so forth”
Please correct me but I do not quite think that is accurate.
Did not the 12 tribes of Jacob enter Egypt through Joseph who was sold into slavery? He then rose among the ranks in Egypt until he could see the seven years of prosperity/famine.
After Joseph died, does not the scripture say a Pharaoh eventually rose who forgot the deeds of Joseph, and as a result begun to persecute the Hebrews?
If this is the basic scenario, then the Hebrews did not obtain their slaves when they crossed the ‘Re[e]d Sea’
by nations attacking them[, since they were not a nation as such].
The paradox is as the Nationalist like to point out:
While they were slaves in Egypt, they also had their own slaves…
Or is there something else you would like to add??
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I hate when people try to use the bible to justify oppressing people, it makes me sick!!
Bible is not an excuse for slavery and its not an excuse to deny homosexual’s rights!
A 2000 year old text of questionable veridity should not be used as a basis to deny someone their rights.
all the bad things this book has done for humanity..
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I think I am going to have to agree with No_Slappz here.
Its remarkable how so many here can attempt to re-define the biblical slavery.
The bottom line is all slavery is about denying an individual or a nation – its just wrong!!.
Paradoxically there is no difference between the Whites who have suggested ‘it was the times’ (for acts like the Transatlantic slavery|) and those Blacks who believe ‘it was the time’ (when slavery was acceptable biblically)simply because it is associated with God
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I also have a probelm with a god who favours israelites and even instructs them to massacre their enemies.. what kind of an omnibenevolent god is this?
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@ J
yes well said!!
even worse for me is blacks who criticize(rightly so) the whites who used the bible to justify yet are perfectly happy to use the bible to discrimante against gays.
I may seem like I am always talking about gay rights and I apologise if its boring or inapporiate, but to me( a straight mixed race female) gay rights are civil rights and blacks should know the pain of not having civil rights. just makes me sad.
yeah anyway in a lot of aspects the bible sucks.
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hernieth, you wrote:
“They should have went into business!”
News flash. Religion is a money-maker for lots of people. In fact, being a religious leader is one of the commonly practiced options chosen by black entertainers. Meanwhile, the Catholic Church is worth billions, though somewhat less today, due to settlements made with people who were sexually abused by priests.
You observed:
“Think of how great business would be if they could hoodwink generations of unsuspecting people, after all, there’s a sucker born every minute!”
Business has been great.
You wrote:
“Whoever wrote it was anything but ‘ignorant’!”
“Ignorant” in terms of the knowledge possessed by the creator of the Universe. The writers of the Bible knew absolutely nothing about basic science and math. In other words, they were mere mortals of the day. But they were smart enough to know the world was filled with people who knew even less.
You wrote:
“Whoever wrote the bible had better PR acumen then you do.”
The writers of the Bible proved that writing a best-seller has no connection to quality or truth. All that matters is the credulity of mankind.
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i’d like to recommend ‘The Curse of Ham: Race and Slavery in Early Judaism, Christianity and Islam’ by David Goldenberg to those who are interested in reading more on this topic of slavery from academic sources. that book is very well researched and eye-opening, it is really interesting the way scholars from those three religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) shaped and influenced ideas on race and slavery in antiquity and how their influence still exists today.
i personally believe that people of faith need to be open-minded and realistic when examining the uglier parts of their religion rather than trying to rationalize and/or make excuses. furthermore, just because people from a certain religion behave(d) badly/horribly does not mean that the religion is a lie, it is just proof that humans are not perfect and can use anything in their means to do horrible things. that being said, i also believe it is perfectly okay for individuals to ‘pick and choose’ parts of their religions as they see fit.
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Lucia,
let me preface by saying I no longer go to church and i do not believe in organized religion. For me, it is a personal and “private” relationship for which I need no public display nor conformism.
Personal Opinion: The “New Testament” overrides much of the philosophy of the “Old”. Golden Rule “do unto others as you would have done unto you.” –vs– The Ten Commandments.
While I see flaws with the New Testament, I also see “foresight” and wisdom that supercedes the Old Testment which was written specifically FOR Jews and not “Gentiles”.
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Abagond sez:
And, by the way, saying I am starved for authority IS an ad hominem – even if true. You have this habit of assuming that people who do not agree with you have something wrong in the head.
C’mon, man! Every other post you right presumes that same thing not just about one or another individual but about entire classifications of individuals that number in the tens or even hundreds of millions!
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I think the “non-Jews” that were slaves of the Jews were the remnant of neighbouring nations who had attacked them.
Biblical trivia time, Grenda: the Jews came out of which country? And got their homeland by doing what, exactly? (Hint: “Jericho”).
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Another important thing to keep in mind is that there is a difference between an idea and those who say they practise it.
Does this apply to Thomas Jefferson, for example?
The Bible is not about social revolution, it is not about making this world a better place.
Right. The Catholic Church is not considered with the politics and property of this world.
Do tell. [roll eyes]
Or are you saying – good Catholic that you are – that the Bible is indeed meant to be read independent of the meanings assigned to it by a Catholic heirarchy that is manifestly a creature of “this world”?
Thanks for the book suggestion, eccentricyoruba!
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The curse of Ham: race and slavery in early Judaism, Christianity, and Islam By David M. Goldenberg
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=QFHB2D4XH8UC&pg=PA380&lpg=PA380&dq=curse+of+Ham+babylon+talmud&source=bl&ots=jic9QPKcPO&sig=N5Nrz3m1jKB6uH_LeGMyqCsYG9g&hl=en&ei=yT6RS93fGZP00gTr9IXjDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CCcQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false
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And another book that is more African centred in its perspective
Begrimed & Black: Christian Traditions on Blacks and Blackness by Robert Hood
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To Abagond:
I was never a corporate banker. I worked for a bank as a computer programmer. There is a huge difference between the two. I think Uncle Milton can back me up on that one.
Ahh yep, I agree, I think scales and feathers are more closely related than corporate bankers and corporate programmers. The former is the ultimate old boys club, those at the top (and even the middle… in good years often receive bonuses in excess of 1 million dollars. (Hell even in bad years (witness the bonuses doled out to companies that took Tarp..) they can receive big bonuses…) They make or break startup businesses or even long time established companies that have debt problems.
A corporate programmer or more accurately a computer programmer who works for a corporation is a highly skilled worker but in the end is a worker and generally does not wield nearly as much influence as corporate bankers. The movement in the US in the past decade has to been to outsource programming jobs to China, India, and Eastern Europe. It’s still a better job than most but there is very high burn out rate… by the time computer programmers have hit their mid 40s they often move into management or another field. The age prejudice in the industry is quite high and the drive now is hire someone fresh out of college (the perception is they are cheaper..) or someone overseas… (ditto…)
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uncle milton, you wrote:
“The former (corporate banker) is the ultimate old boys club…”
and
“A corporate programmer…a computer programmer who works for a corporation…It’s still a better job than most but there is very high burn out rate… by the time computer programmers have hit their mid 40s they often move into management or another field.”
The same burn-out and career transitions affect corporate — more accurately — investment bankers. They very often join the industries they had previously financed.
You wrote:
“The age prejudice in the industry is quite high and the drive now is hire someone fresh out of college.
The preceding describes the atmosphere of investment banking — where age discrimination is rampant and the drive is to hire someone fresh from an ivy-league business school.
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Still working for the Great Satan, Abagond, even if you’re shoveling coal in the bunkers and not on the whips ‘n chains committee. 😀
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To: Ó Dochartaigh (on Thu 4 Mar 2010 at 03:42:50)
Sorry I didn’t post a response before.
“They were slaves plane and simple.”
It isn’t that simple Ó. Bible’s slavery meaning is very distinct from the current one, same way you would’d be polygamous just because it was practised then.
1 Corinthians 9:20,21
“20-And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21-To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. “
By common sense, you wouldn’t wear a bikini to prom just because it is a piece of clothes. Same way different ocasions require different clothes, different cultures/times require different interpretations. It is not linear.
But wherever you go (time/space) the Main values never change. Even existing people denying some of them, they deeply know it is wrong at some point…
(That’s the bottom line)
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To D&nni
“same way you would’d be polygamous just because it was practised then.”
It was not just a practice of the times as polygamy was, to my knowledge, god in the bible condemns polygamy, and condones marriage between 1 man and 1 woman. That is not the case with slavery, god condemns enslaving other Jews but no one else, in fact he tells Jews and Christians how to own and beat there slaves. Owning and beating another person is unacceptable, no matter how you label it, it is a form of slavery, that god condones.
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Great metaphor Thad…
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To no_slappz:
corporate — more accurately — investment bankers.
I am aware of the roles of an investment banker… I was going to make the same statement but then the original author may have meant a broader spectrum of bankers so I didn’t want to be presumptuous. I could have lead with – Do you mean Investment Bankers…?
The same burn-out and career transitions affect bankers…
The more important difference (in regards to the original post..) is that Investment or Commercial bankers in NYC tend to make substantially more money and wield more power than computer programmers. Hence my comment about Abagond being a worker.
I was writing about the burn out issues because of personal issues.. I just survived round four of a series of layoffs at my company.
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I like black people . . .
. . I used to have some black friends ’till my dad sold them!
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Hey Ab!!
Its been a long time man. Thank you for posting something that has the potential to be so…”touchy”. Its my personal belief that the Bible is the most fantastic piece of fiction I’ve ever read…and Black Christians have used this book with the belief (or rather misbelief) that living their lives according to this fiction will somehow right all the wrongs of the world….what was done to us upon first entering this country, all the way up to present day. “Its okay…let massa keep doing what he gon do. There’s a better place waiting fo us on the other side…dis here book says so”.
I wont judge too harshly…whatever gets one to sleep more comfortably at night. If the ills of the world are somehow spiritually justified by a more peaceful world awaiting, that’s quite alright with me….
LMAO @ “hello stupids”….much easier to crack jokes when there’s nothing intelligent for you to say. Congrats! You got a laugh out of me!!
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It’s unimaginable how anyone many believers come up with the most dumbfounded excuses for slavery in the bible. Slavery wasn’t as bad back then?! You could beat your slave with a rod to the point of death! If the slave died at least two days after the beating,the master was not to be punished. And who cares if the passage was written in the old testament; so were the ten commandments. Where in the NEW TESTAMENT does anyone say slavery is bad or immoral?
Even if I did believe in the god of the bible, I would never follow a god whose moral standards were lower than mine. I list the following examples:
1. If a man really wanted to marry a woman, he simply could just rape her. The penalty for raping a woman was the attacker had to pay a small fee to the victim’s father and then marry her.
2. Slavery. Unlike the god of the bible, I believe owning a person as a piece of property is wrong in any time period.
3. I don’t believe in human or animal sacrifice. I list two examples of human sacrifice.
Example 1: God sacrifices his son. Is this the best moral answer god came up with to save us?
Example 2: JUDGES 11: 30-39 Jephthah made a vow to the LORD: “If you give the Ammonites into my hands, whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD’s, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.” The first person to walk out of his house? His daughter who was his only child.
4. I do not believe in GENOCIDE!
Many examples of mass killings ordered by god. Here are just a few.
Example 1. The conquest of Canaan, in which God ordered the Hebrews to completely exterminate the Canaanite people — again from the elderly to newborns and fetuses. This is described throughout the book of Joshua as occurring in Jericho and other Caananite cities.
Example 2: 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'”(I Sam 15.2f) Oh,by the way, god allows all the female virgins to be spared… I wonder why!
Example 3. As a direct result of David’s sin, God killed 70,000 people in Israel!
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“Despite their carefully chosen Bible verses, slave owners knew deep down that what they were doing was wrong from a Christian point of view. Why else their need to look down on black people?”
“Reading and understanding the Bible is something that takes a lifetime. I used to think the Bible was just a pack of lies, but that was before I read the whole thing for myself from end to end. It is too easy to take it the wrong way if you just read bits of it.”
– The Old Testament and New Testament are two different books, two “gods” different. “Someone” put together incorrectly.
Imagine that the New Testament someone had put the Ra’s mythology as Old Testament.
In fact, Jesus did not agree with the homicidal, genocidal and slaveholding “god” of the Old Testament. Read Juan 8, especially Juan 8:12 to 8:15, 8:19, 8:37 to 8:45
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I sincerely believe that an implication of the Gospel of leveling the playing field w/ regards to human’s standing and value before God Jew or Gentile, Slave or Free, Male or Female (Gal 3:25-28) would inevitability lead to the abolition of previously socially accepted behavior like sexism, classism, racism, and in this case the American institution of slavery! Also keep in mind the continuous call to love and serve one another (ex Gal 5:13-14)…consider others better than yourselves (Phil 2:3-4) would inevitably lead to some form of tension in practice for those who themselves have or live in a society that previously or currently devalued, dehumanized, and enslaved others for profit.
Consider the words of Paul in See 1 Timothy 1:8-11
8 Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, 10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, ENSLAVERS, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.
Now he does not outright abolish slavery, he does pronounce it to be “contrary to sound doctrine, in accordance with the Gospel.”
On another note I think this vid that touches on this topic and fleshes it out a bit better than I can may interest you.
http://vimeo.com/10940130
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I personally like Christianity and the Bible. I just don’t really believe it because I’ve never seen it “work”.
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This is an amazing statement coming from you Abagond!!!
What type of relationship would God want you to have with him?
(1) One were you obeyed, observed and practiced all laws in praise of him. Irrespective of your social, economic or political situation, i.e, a slave or a master
OR
(2) One were you obeyed, observed and practiced all laws in praise of him. Including a respect for the social, economic and political status of all men, i.e, no slaves and no masters except God.
It seems to me one could be a justification for slavery and another for opposing it. But which one would you choose?
However….
Regardless of which relationship you chose both would re-enforce a – though benevolent – hierarchical “servant” and “master” relationship with God.
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Proverbs 22:7 The rich rules over the poor, and the borrower is the slave of the lender… Was it a warning to the 99% or instructions for the l1%? – Just venting. Thank you for your
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Its good to see that you are a bible reading catholic, few are. We are saved by faith alone not of works. We cannot earn salvation.
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If you are comparing gays to slave owners .keep reading the bible untill you find a way to hang.em all. Im sure u.will by the way ya’ll need mental help
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Okay.
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