Anatole Broyard (1920-1990), an American writer, was the first black literary critic for the New York Times – but the thing was, they did not know he was black! He passed for white. His daughter, Bliss Broyard, wrote about it in “One Drop” (2007).
Broyard was born in New Orleans into a Creole family that was a liberal mix of both black and white. Going by his daughter’s DNA test, Broyard was about 34% black and 56% white – a common mix for Puerto Ricans. Growing up in New York he got into fights because he was too black for the whites and too white for the blacks. In his high school picture in 1937 he looks black.
But then a year later on March 2nd 1938 he went to the Social Security office to apply for a government tax number so he could work. Right there on the form, which we still have, you can see him make his decision: he marks Negro but then scratches that out and then marks white!
Before he went off to fight in the Second World War he married a black Puerto Rican woman and had a daughter by her, Gala. But when he came back from the war he divorced her. He then proceeds to make a name for himself as a white writer, marries a white woman and moves to a white neighbourhood in a very white town and brings up his son and daughter as white. They had no idea he was part black till he was on his deathbed (though his wife and some friends knew).
The New York Times would not have hired him as a literary critic if they knew he was black: blacks, after all, can only write about “black” subjects! It is the same reasoning that Hollywood uses too: black actors can only play “black” characters. Blacks are not seen as “universal”, but whites are.
Broyard thought that he did not need to be black or white, that he could just be himself. But to succeed as a literary critic he had to present himself to society as a white man, which meant turning his back on his mother and two sisters, who lived as black (one sister could pass but not the other).
One time his mother wrote him a letter begging to see her grandchildren before she passed away. He let her see them – once. They did not understand who she was.
That makes him sound ice cold, but his daughter says he was a loving family man. She says the way he had to keep the two sides of his family separate tore him apart inside.
When his daughter found out she was part black she thought it was cool, but did not like how her father had kept it a secret from her for 25 years. She supposes that he wanted to spare her the pain he went through growing up.
See also:
Good post. I read the daughter’s book a few mos ago and was stunned at how he was able to pass for so long. I don’t know but in many of the pictures I thought he looked like someone with Black blood. Anyway you summed the book up quite well.
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It’s a touching story.
It looks like things are a bit better now, but then again, white is still seen as “universal” and “neutral”.
On the other hand, this man looks white to me (at least n this picture).
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Wow, Broyard was more African that I thought, in terms of DNA.
It’s funny because he could easily “pass” as a Puerto Rican. Figures. He had the same genetic background as one!
I read his daughter Bliss’ autobiography. It was very interesting. She actually considers herself to be “multiracial” now. She has also connected with her black family members. I agree with Mira, it is a “feel good” story.
What do you make of guys like Don Cheadle, Chris Rock or Quincy Jones who are actually “whiter” than average, DNA-wise? Would anyone consider them to be “mixed”, after learning of their true lineage?
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good post. my pop pop passed for white when it was convenient. He was married to a black woman ( brown skinned) though. whenever he wanted something, like to go in a white restaurant to get the best food, he would have my grandmother and kids wait in the car, he’d go in as white get the orders, come out as black and they’d all eat together. This was in Maryland btw, there were strict segregation laws in MD alot of people don’t know that cuz we’re not the deep south.
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that did sound kinda cold though that he didn’t let his own momma see her grandchildren
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except 4 once
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abagond, why do you use military time stamps?
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This man looks more meztiso or mullato Latino man than White.
mynameismyname said:
What do you make of guys like Don Cheadle, Chris Rock or Quincy Jones who are actually “whiter” than average, DNA-wise? Would anyone consider them to be “mixed”, after learning of their true lineage?
No because the term mixed is placed for people who have parents from a different racial or ethnic background. Not distant ancestry. So although according to DNA, they are more “mixed” but their appearance looks more Black so therefore people would treat them accordingly and they come from two Black parents.
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17:31:59 military time
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I think its cool that she connected with her black routes. I’ve always believed that most black american folks could write a book about their families because we all have a story of how we got here. I guess abagond is from the islands,but I’m sure he’s got an interesting story to tell too. Can I ask one questions abagond? Were your ancestors slaves in the New World?
( 17:31:59 is 5:31 pm civilian time)
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*roots, question
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oh and when he served in WWII did he serve in the “colored units,” or did he pass as white then too? Does anyone know?
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“When his daughter found out she was part black…”
Oh, don’t you mean “When his daughter found out she was black” ? Or do you only apply the One Drop Rule and consider black those mixed race people who accomplish something notable? That would fit a pattern I’ve noticed. The average mixed person on the street is not claimed or accepted by blacks as a full and equal member of the “community”. However, any mixed person who makes a notable accomplishment, like being a NYT literary writer, is automatically drafted into the race.
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Anatole Broyard may have been regarded as black by whites during his lifetime if they had known his true background (I doubt that he would be considered by many as just black today). However, given that most of his ancestors came from somewhere other than Africa, it clearly does not make sense to categorize him simply as black, regardless of what people think he is.
The One Drop Rule is virtually unknown in other parts of the world and seems to be declining in use among American whites. You, however, seem to be caught up in a time warp. You seem to use British spellings for words, so perhaps you are not an American are are not fully cognizant of the social conditions in this country.
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“Oh, don’t you mean “When his daughter found out she was black” ? Or do you only apply the One Drop Rule and consider black those mixed race people who accomplish something notable? That would fit a pattern I’ve noticed. The average mixed person on the street is not claimed or accepted by blacks as a full and equal member of the “community”. However, any mixed person who makes a notable accomplishment, like being a NYT literary writer, is automatically drafted into the race.”
*sighs* frustrated guy, i don’t know what your problem is. Claim yourself however you want to claim yourself. My pop pop was white, physically white. He was 1/8 black and was always accepted as black. Please don’t make those type of assumptions. pretty much anyone who has direct lineage going back to africa and who acknowledges and supports their black people, I will accept as black and I’m not the only one is like that I know. Also dont think that being accepted as black means someone has to also deny whatever else they are. Please stop being so condescending in your remarks. Identify as you choose, I liked abagond’s post I thought it was well done. People are always bustin your chops abagond. The only time I bust abagond’s chops is over stupid stuff.
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lynette that’s such a nice picture, i should put my picture up. i gotta scan it though.
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@ Peanut: Thank you.
@ Frustrated Guy said:
“The One Drop Rule is virtually unknown in other parts of the world and seems to be declining in use among American whites. You, however, seem to be caught up in a time warp. You seem to use British spellings for words, so perhaps you are not an American are are not fully cognizant of the social conditions in this country.”
How do you know that the One Drop Rule “seems to be declining in use among American whites”?
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For perspective, Broyard used to have a ‘fro. As noted above, one of his two sisters is obviously black. The power of genetics.
Dani,
I also wouldn’t think of those three fellas as “mixed” per se. Yet, do you think that if they looked “less black”, they would be seen as such, after the relevation of their lineage? For instance, you see so much debate on the internet about the lineage of celebs like Beyonce Knowles and Vanessa L. Williams despite the fact that they have both come from traditional African American families.
Is being “mixed” about a heritiage, who your parents or, is it about the way you look?
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mynameismyname said:
Dani,
I also wouldn’t think of those three fellas as “mixed” per se. Yet, do you think that if they looked “less black”, they would be seen as such, after the relevation of their lineage? For instance, you see so much debate on the internet about the lineage of celebs like Beyonce Knowles and Vanessa L. Williams despite the fact that they have both come from traditional African American families.
Is being “mixed” about a heritiage, who your parents or, is it about the way you look?
This is a damn good question and this is what I’ve been debating about for quite some time. I think it’s a combination of all three. I think that that heritage is often confused with race. I remember hearing someone tell me that they one of their parents are African-American and other West Indian. They claimed to be bi-racial. I told that person that both are considered Black not bi-racial and that would be considered bi-ethnic, bi-nationality, or bi-cultural. Same with someone who is Puerto Rican and Cuban. As far as parents go, I think that many bi-racial individuals stress that two Black parents makes you black as oppose to one Black parent because with two Black parents you have less conflictions on identifying as Black. However, if one of your parents is Black and other is White, there is the confliction because of the connotation of whiteness and blackness and because of race being treated as a seperate entitiy instead of once group.
Now looks help to on people believing that you are mixed. Most people believe that mixed race people are light skin so therefore it is easier for people to believe. When that is not the case. I knew a girl who’s mother was from Nigeria and her father was White American particularly Polish and she was very dark skin. The difference is she had long straight hair and light eyes. Funny thing is you could find these traits in Black people with two black parents lol
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Race, culture, ethnicity get so intertwined and obfuscated in this country that it’s enough to give me a headache.
I prefer the Latin definition on race. If you look white, you are white, if you look black, you are black. So much simpler, and they don’t have so much confusion between race and ethnicity.
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I prefer the Latin definition on race. If you look white, you are white, if you look black, you are black. So much simpler, and they don’t have so much confusion between race and ethnicity.
What Latin definition, tulio? It’s been my experience that Latin racial classifications are not as cut and dry as “if you look . . .”. There are varying descriptions based on skin, hair, eyes, etc. My parents while both black in the States would be classified completely differently in other countries. And even if the Latin definition were to go the way you say what happens when someone isn’t what you think they are based on their looks?
Actually, the “if you look . . .” seems to be closer to the USian definition.
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I’ve actually read a good portion of Bliss Broyard’s book “One Drop”. It was very interesting that after the big revelation that she reflected on how well she and her father danced. It was kind of like “Ah, that should have been a hint right there. We moved effortlessly with the music. People always did remark on how I didn’t dance like a white girl. This all makes sense.”
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“How do you know that the One Drop Rule “seems to be declining in use among American whites”?”
http://www.zogby.com/NEWS/ReadNews.cfm?ID=1227
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Sami, the American definition is based entirely on the goal of preserving white genetic purity. The Latin definition of white doesn’t have much to do with purity per se, but on what you look like. It seems less neurotic to me and more straightforward. Some in America consider Mariah Carey to be “black”. Latins scratch their heads wondering how earth she’s could be considered black, even if she calls herself so. Kind of the way I scratch my head when I hear Russians refer to immigrants from the Caucasus region as “blacks”.
In a way though, the good thing about the one drop rule is that it forced those socially perceived as black to come together and assert themselves, no matter how mixed they were. In Latin America, so many blacks try to escape being black by calling themselves something else(anything but black) that Afro-latin rights movements have been weak at best because they are too divided. I get the feeling that many black Latins feel the solution to anti-black racism is call yourself “Indian” or “Zambo” or one of the other words carved out and designated to certain mixtures, rather than just embracing blackness. I think that’s the main reason black Americans have made more progress than black Latins.
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“Sami, the American definition is based entirely on the goal of preserving white genetic purity. The Latin definition of white doesn’t have much to do with purity per se, but on what you look like. It seems less neurotic to me and more straightforward. Some in America consider Mariah Carey to be “black”. Latins scratch their heads wondering how earth she’s could be considered black, even if she calls herself so. Kind of the way I scratch my head when I hear Russians refer to immigrants from the Caucasus region as “blacks”.”
I like the Latin way of doing things too. It’s adoption in the US would probably reduce the social difficulties non-Latino mixed race people face.
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tulio says,
I prefer the Latin definition on race. If you look white, you are white, if you look black, you are black. So much simpler, and they don’t have so much confusion between race and ethnicity.
laromana says,
As an Afrolatina raised in the U.S. I can testify to the IGNORANCE and STUPIDITY of the “you are the race you look like” way of classifying race. This WARPED/BACKWARDS method of “racial” classification causes people who come from the SAME family to claim to be of different “races” with the “whiter” looking person thinking they are superior to the “blacker” looking person.
I believe humans will have evolved considerably when we can accept our ACTUAL (racial and cultural) identities without giving preference to “whiteness” over “blackness” and vice-versa.
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Is there some law that says all families by definition are of the same race? There are mixed raced families as in a black marrying a white. There are trans-racial adoptions.
There’s nothing new about family members being of different races.
In my opinion, if someone can “pass” for white, they might as well call themselves white. Not because they hate being black, but because I see no logic behind considering Mariah Carey and Wesley Snipes to be of the same race.
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That full brothers and sisters in the same family can be different “races” – as in Broyard’s family or what Laromana is talking about – shows how little race in Anglo and Latin America has to do with biology or genetics. You are more closely related to your own family than anyone else on earth.
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Two siblings born from the SAME parents have the SAME racial background.
It is WARPED/STUPID/BACKWARDS/IGNORANT for one sibling to claim to be of ANOTHER “race” just because they can “pass” for it. It doesn’t change that person’s ACTUAL identity but TWISTED/RACIST societies allow these individuals to INVENT a PHONY “racial” identity.
That’s why what happened (the PERMANENT loss of contact between him and his family when he decided to “PASS FOR WHITE”) in Anatole Broyard’s family is so DESPICABLE.
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Why shouldn’t Mariah and Wesley be considered the same race? They’re both of African descent.
What about the black families that have members that look like both Mariah and Wesley? They’re supposed to be of two “different races” because of someone stereotypes and idealogy of what a black person is supposed to look like?
If we were to do it that way, every African American family would be split up by racial classification.
Am I wrong?
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there is no such thing as race. black is a cultural identity.
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Tulio’s comments pretty much state what I was trying to hint to Dani:
“Mixed race identity” or any racial identity isn’t based on heritage or who your parents are. It’s mainly ABOUT HOW YOU LOOK.
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There was no such thing as biracial or mixed during Jim Crow. That one drop rule was strictly enforced. I think only people like me who lived under Jim Crow a third of their lifetime regard Jim Crow’s restrictions as recent. Its only been approximately forty years, since a lot of states just ignored the 64 Civil Rights Act.
Think of how many whites that are still living who lived under the culture of Jim Crow, so I would think the one drop rule would still exist in their minds.
I wish we would stop using the term race. We are perpetuating a dis-reputed 18th century pseudo scientific notion.
The one drop rule applied to anyone who had one African ancestor. To say one is black means that you have a collective experience in culture, it never had to do with your color.
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laramona said:
I believe humans will have evolved considerably when we can accept our ACTUAL (racial and cultural) identities without giving preference to “whiteness” over “blackness” and vice-versa.
This is what I’m saying. Cultural, ethnicity, and nationality are much easier to identify as. However, race is confusing to solely identify as because of people’s simplisitic views of what a Black person looks like and a white person looks like.
@ mynameismyname
I’m not disagreeing that race is solely based on physical appearance because I believe race is mostly a social identity than a personal identity. However, many people will treat it as a personal identity and would base racial classifications off a parent’s race and heritage. When race is not synonymous to neither.
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I think that African-Americans are a social construct based somewhat on phenotype and somewhat on culture. I’m not sold on the notion that race is a social construct, but I believe in the case of AAs, it is for the most part since someone who looks white can be considered “black” under the law.
Mariah Carey is of partial African descent. I don’t know how much, but she claims to have various ancestries. She looks overwhelmingly European descent to me. I know you can’t always tell by looks, but she doesn’t look like she has much black in her. Outside the U.S. nobody would take seriously the notion that Mariah Carey is black, in the sense of being of African descent.
That’s a great question I’ve thought about and don’t have a good answer. Now usually you aren’t going to have a brother that looks like Snipes and a sister that looks like Mariah. I’m a fair bit darker than my sister(who look somewhat mulatto) while I look like a pretty regular black man. We both consider ourselves black, but if my sister were to tell people she’s half white, nobody would doubt her. Whereas if I did, it would be a joke. And we have the same parents. So I don’t know how to answer that one to be perfectly honest.
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Tulio,
Wow, I’m surprised that you say you are black. I’ve never heard a black person challenge another black’s ethnicity based solely on appearance.
Umm, all you have to do is look at my family. I have an aunt who is just as ambigious as Mariah. Her brother, my uncle, is Wesley Snipes/Kevin Garnett-like. Crazy, right? Not really.
It’s not uncommon in white parents to have one sibling that looks extremely Nordic, while the other does not. It’s just how it is. Of course, this isn’t every family but it’s enough of them.
Anyone who has seen Mariah without makeup and extensions can see that the woman is clearly “mulatto”. Stereotypically so. That’s why it’s not good to judge a celebrity’s appearance based on the images you are used to seeing. Not much of that is real.
Dani,
I agree wholeheartedly. It’s just that Tulio and many other people’s views seem to confirm that for most people, “race” is based mainly on phentotype. If Tulio were to see Mariah’s (very) black relatives, some of whom are also in the business, he would recant his ideas on her “not being that black”. He, and others, are judging her race BASED ON HOW SHE LOOKS, not who her family is and what her actual heritage is. Race is mainly visual.
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@Tulio
Sami, the American definition is based entirely on the goal of preserving white genetic purity. The Latin definition of white doesn’t have much to do with purity per se, but on what you look like.
The history of racial classifications in both US and the Latin countries were based on white superiority. The only difference is that one wanted to bred out the people of color and the other wanted to keep the races completely separate. To me those classifications are less straightforward. Brazil for example has a plethora of classifications. People who would be one race in the US could be classified completely differently.
Actually your own example of you and your sister are a great example of this.
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At one time my opinion on this topic was the same as yours. After reflecting on it more, I just don’t think the one drop rule makes the slightest bit of sense. Well it does in that it codifies a mechanism to keep white people pure and keep those “dirty genes” out of their gene pool. It’s actually quite racist when you think about it because I don’t think it applies to any other group. If a white person is 1/10 Chinese, they will look like normal white people. Nobody will call that person Chinese because he has a drop of Chinese blood. Ditto for Native Americans or any other ethnicity. But when it comes to blacks, it’s like black blood is such a tainting element that any degree of it makes the person somehow a member of the Negroid race. Sorry, I don’t look at Mariah Carey and see someone that looks anything like me. And I have the feeling if she were Mariah Carey the country western artist instead of an “urban” R&B diva, nobody would even be defending her “blackness.”
I’ll acknowledge once again, and I emphasize, I think the one drop rule, ironically helped blacks by not giving them the ability to flee their blackness and infight so much based on skin shade. Black Americans didn’t divide themselves up into a bunch of stratified categories based on colorism. They all had to get out their march as one since they were all considered equally black under the law. Light skinned blacks in Latin America just denied being black and let the rest fend for themselves. So the ODR did some good here. However, we can’t forget that the ODR is a means of enforcing white supremacy at its roots. We have embraced it over time and in many ways, we now view our various skin shades the way whites view their different hair colors. Our “blackness” isn’t much tied to how much African blood is in our veins, which is the opposite of how “whiteness” is defined. That’s the paradigm we’ve accepted and taken for granted. But underneath it all, a man that is 90% white is still basically of European heritage, whether he feels identifies as black or not. That’s all I’m saying.
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“He, and others, are judging her race BASED ON HOW SHE LOOKS, not who her family is and what her actual heritage is. Race is mainly visual.”
Right, that’s the key problem white-looking mixed race people confront when trying to establish a black identity. Your family of course knows your background and will recognize you as black, but no one else does and will. It’s hard to claim being a member of a particular racial group when you don’t really possess any of the physical features that distinguish that group from others.
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abagond says,
That full brothers and sisters in the same family can be different “races” – as in Broyard’s family or what Laromana is talking about – shows how little race in Anglo and Latin America has to do with biology or genetics. You are more closely related to your own family than anyone else on earth.
laromana says,
Basing a person’s racial identity on their ACTUAL FAMILIAL GENETIC/BIOLOGICAL makeup and their culture rather than PERCEIVED APPEARANCE is a more ACCURATE way of classifying them and has NOTHING to do with the OUTDATED/RACIST One Drop Rule.
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@ Frustrated Guy said:
“The One Drop Rule is virtually unknown in other parts of the world and seems to be declining in use among American whites.”
I read the article you posted and I wanted to add something no one has to this point. Mixed race status in the media is maintained so long as the individual has a clean image. The one drop rule rears its head when that individual fails to uphold the clean image. Consider the issue with Tiger Woods, and how the six year old Vanity Fair images which depict him rather thuggishly (the black male stereotype) have suddenly surfaced.
When liberals take polls, when people do, they answer how they think they are supposed to, and white liberals tend to only show their bias toward stereotypes. If you ask me, any mulatto in the public eye exist as such only until they “prove” blackness to whites who believe that blackness is not just looks but physical representations of immorality. Then the ODR reveals itself.
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“Wow, I’m surprised that you say you are black. I’ve never heard a black person challenge another black’s ethnicity based solely on appearance.
Umm, all you have to do is look at my family. I have an aunt who is just as ambigious as Mariah. ”
“Anyone who has seen Mariah without makeup and extensions can see that the woman is clearly “mulatto”.”
Before she became the best-selling female artist of all time, Mariah had the experiences I’m talking about. She actually wrote a song about it, “Outside”:
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Tulio,
I understand your view. It makes sense. But should my uncle look at my aunt and decide that they aren’t family based on the dramatic difference in racial appearance? Should Adam Clayton Powell, Jr. or Lena Horne’s more “stereotypically black-looking” relatives not see them as black since they look nothing alike? Does this all make sense?
If Mariah has black family members (whose race you would never question or challenge), relates to black American culture and has experienced racial turmoil based on her ethnicity, why shouldn’t she call herself black?
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Well, “mixed race status” with black/white offspring is transient and subjective.
At the end of the day, all of the notable black/white or black/non-white offspring are seen as black.
It all becomes a matter of “mainstream acceptance”. White America could have given two damns about Halle Berry until she won the Oscar for Best Actress. Then she suddenly became “biracial”.
Pop radio refused to play Alicia Keys’ “Fallin'” single (they deemed it to be “too black”) initially. When she became a payola-driven pop sensation shortly after, then all of a sudden she became “biracial”.
Obama, Tiger Woods, Mariah and so forth. Same pattern. All this reinforces that these people are essentially seen as black. Why else would their racial status need to be “upgraded” or “validated”? Does the media do this to non-black minorities? We all know the answer to that.
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“It all becomes a matter of “mainstream acceptance”. White America could have given two damns about Halle Berry until she won the Oscar for Best Actress. Then she suddenly became “biracial”.
Pop radio refused to play Alicia Keys’ “Fallin’” single (they deemed it to be “too black”) initially. When she became a payola-driven pop sensation shortly after, then all of a sudden she became “biracial”.
Obama, Tiger Woods, Mariah and so forth. Same pattern. All this reinforces that these people are essentially seen as black. Why else would their racial status need to be “upgraded” or “validated”? Does the media do this to non-black minorities? We all know the answer to that.”
You’re right. To accept you as biracial, white people need to see you act in ways they regard as culturally white. That’s because race is increasingly defined in terms of culture. Black people are also increasingly defining being black in terms of culture.
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Mariah Carey, “Outside” (1997)
It’s hard to explain
Inherently it’s just always been strange
Neither here nor there
Always somewhat out of place everywhere
Ambiguous
Without a sense of belonging to touch
Somewhere halfway
Feeling there’s no one completely the same
Chorus
Standing alone
Eager to just
Believe it’s good enough to be what
You really are
But in your heart
Uncertainty forever lies
And you’ll always be
Somewhere on the
Outside
Verse
Early on, you face
The realization you don’t
have a space
Where you fit in
And recognize you
Were born to exist
Chorus
Standing alone
Eager to just
Believe it’s good enough to be what
You really are
But in your heart
Uncertainty forever lies
And you’ll always be
Somewhere on the
Outside
And it’s hard
And it’s hard
And it’s hard
Bridge
Irreversibly
Falling in between
And it’s hard
And it’s hard
To be understood
As you are
As you are
Oh, and God knows
That you’re standing on your own
Blind and unguided
Into a world divided
You’re thrown
Where you’re never quite the same
Although you try-try and try
To tell yourself
You really are
But in your heart-uncertainty forever lies
And you’ll always be
Somewhere on the outside
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Frustrated Guy:
You might be interested in this post if you have not already seen it:
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laromana
Two siblings born from the SAME parents have the SAME racial background.
It is WARPED/STUPID/BACKWARDS/IGNORANT for one sibling to claim to be of ANOTHER “race” just because they can “pass” for it. It doesn’t change that person’s ACTUAL identity but TWISTED/RACIST societies allow these individuals to INVENT a PHONY “racial” identity.
That’s why what happened (the PERMANENT loss of contact between him and his family when he decided to “PASS FOR WHITE”) in Anatole Broyard’s family is so DESPICABLE.
I totally agree. I have not read the book. What happend to the daughter he had with the black Puerto Rican woman? Did he abandon her too? If so he is not only selfish but a very irresponsible man. Passing for white is not a legitimate reason to abandon a child. His daughter from his first wife deserved the same love, affection, acknowledgement, and treatment that he gave to his “white” daughter. He is a sorry excuse of a man and human being. It’s a shame that passing for white was so important to him that he was willing to turn his back on his own mother. His mother was the one who brought him into this world, fed him, clothed him, washed his ass but yet he still chose to deny her in order to fit in with white people. What about his sibilings? I’m sure they went through the same trials and tribulations that he did but decided to stay true to themselves. I guess because Im not mixed I cant even begin to understand nor relate to this sick twisted way of thinking.
I’m not saying that a mixed person should self identify as “just black”,to each his own, but they should not hide or be ashamed that they are part black either. White people are not ashamed of being white and they have done so many awful things because of race that they should be.
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“You might be interested in this post if you have not already seen it:”
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/11/20/the-white-club/
Hey, I know it’s not a perfect world, but I’ve got to figure out some way to survive and not be ostracized by everyone. Besides, I prefer the Euro-American social norms as they were the ones I was raised in.
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@ Laveumthinking
I agree with you what happend to them? It is just inexcusable that he left them to live a white life lie.
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Broyard’s racial background was no secret in Greenwich Village.
If you want a novelist’s account of his experience, read Philip Roth’s “The Human Stain.”
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@ frustrated guy
“I prefer the Euro-American social norms as they were the ones I was raised in.”
How are these norms different. Please explain.
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Sometimes living white meant being able to live their dream not to live white.
The professional jobs in the South during the fifties, teacher, funeral director, doctor, lawyer and preacher. In some places maybe social worker, pharmacist or foundry work, blue collar but high paying for Negroes.
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@ Analeisha:
LOL. I was going to ask him that too!
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Philip Roth denies that “The Human Stain” (2000) is about Broyard. He says he did not even know Broyard was passing till after he started the book.
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Henry Louis Gates, Jr says he found out Broyard was black back in 1975. He knew someone from the black side of his family.
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He then proceeds to make a name for himself as a white writer, marries a white woman and moves to a white neighborhood in a very white town and brings up his son and daughter as white. They had no idea he was part black till he was on his deathbed (though his wife and some friends knew).
Just looking at several of his pictures it seems very obvious to me that he was most certainly mixed. What is so interesting is that the whites in that avant garde world didn’t recognize that he was mixed and that he was able to fool all those whites for so long. His second wife I believe suspected in the beginning before he disclosed, but she was as white as they come—Scandinavian I think. I am sure Blacks back then knew which is why he made it a point to keep a pretty high barrier between him and them by behaving and being as white as possible—so he wouldn’t be called out/recognized.
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abagond, you wrote:
“Philip Roth denies that “The Human Stain” (2000) is about Broyard. He says he did not even know Broyard was passing till after he started the book.”
Nonsense. Roth was acquainted with Broyard, and, as I said, Broyard’s background was known to a lot of people in Greenwich Village during his years there.
Roth can say whatever he wants, his entire body of work has incorporated as much of his life as he has been able to jam in. Virtually every character in his novels is a composite of people he has known, and most are easy enough to identify. He’s even got a fictionalized J. D. Salinger among them.
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Mayhue,
In Bliss’ autobiography, she mentions a white classmate of her father saying that he didn’t know Anatole was black not only because of his appearance but also due to “the way he spoke”. I guess he didn’t have the “negro dialect” either. This tricked some folks! LOL.
Yes, many blacks in the literary world knew that he was of his true identity. In the days of “passing”, it was seen as an act of support for “obvious” blacks not to “out” the “passing” blacks.
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Well like I said previously, of course members of different races can be in the same family, one has nothing to do with other. If a black marries a white, they are now one family no different than 2 blacks marrying. There are many multiracial families. So I don’t see any problem there.
As for Mariah, if she wants to call herself black, in the ethnic sense in that she identifies with black people, has some black heritage, identifies with the culture, struggle, music, language, and heritage, then that’s fine. I think African-Americans are a social construct since it tends to be defined as how others view you and allows quite a bit of flexibility in who is accepted as black. If America views Mariah Carey as black, then sure she’s black for all intents and purposes. I’m just not sure how many people looking at her would think she is a black woman and *treat* her as one, despite whatever she claims to be. She may claim to be black, but given that she dies her hair blond and had her nose narrowed, she only seems to be giving lip service in embracing her black heritage. Like Michael Jackson .
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Note: that last “tulio” comment does not come from the same computer or even the same part of America as the other Tulio comments. As you can tell from the avatar, even the email address is wrong.
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Last time I checked, there were two identical comments, posted under different names.
@Laveumthinking
I’m not saying that a mixed person should self identify as “just black”,to each his own, but they should not hide or be ashamed that they are part black either. White people are not ashamed of being white and they have done so many awful things because of race that they should be.
White people have to learn history, unlearn their racism and realize what’s white privilege. Then fight against it.
But to feel ashamed to be born white? It makes no sense. You don’t choose your racial background. You cannot be ashamed (or proud) of something that you were born with. I am not ashamed nor proud of being white and I don’t see that as a bad thing. Why would I be proud or ashamed?
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Pseudo-Tulio said:
“Well like I said previously, of course members of different races can be in the same family, one has nothing to do with other. If a black marries a white, they are now one family no different than 2 blacks marrying. There are many multiracial families. So I don’t see any problem there.”
If a man and a woman marry their relationship is by marriage, by law, not genetic, so of course they can be from different races in a biological sense. No one is talking about that. We are talking about brothers and sisters, siblings, who are more alike genetically than anyone else on earth (except for twins and clones). To say that they can be in different “races” shows that race is not biological or even cultural (given that most siblings grow up in the same culture) but completely social.
Most people from the same race do have plenty in common in terms of genetics and culture, but that is a side effect, not the cause of race.
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Race is caused by racism, not by genes or looks or culture.
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Something that Bliss Broyard said about race and being black:
“I can decide how much I want this to be a part of who I am. In a lot of people, their race is so apparent that they don’t have any control over how they are seen. I think race is the sum of experiences and a state of mind.”
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If there are two nearly identical comments coming from the same computer, I delete the older one assuming the newer one is a correction.
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@Abagond
I think race is the sum of experiences and a state of mind.
Actually, this is true. Which basically makes my previous comment void. Race isn’t absolute, it’s not biological or genetic- it’s social. And if it is, if it’s something you can adjust the way you feel (and according to your identity, not your genes), in that case, yes, you can be proud or ashamed of your race.
But then again, can you really choose your race the way you want? For example, I can identify myself as black, but if no other human being on Earth accepts me as a member of black race, how can I claim black?
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I know you deleted the first one. What I found interesting was the fact they weren’t posted under the same name.
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Mira said:
“.. can you really choose your race the way you want? For example, I can identify myself as black, but if no other human being on Earth accepts me as a member of black race, how can I claim black?”
You would seem delusional.
In America only a few people can choose their race, like blacks who can pass for white. But even for them, as with Anatole Broyard above, it is not as easy as you would think.
Some people think they can be “white”, if not in the strict sense at least for the most purposes. They tell themselves that whites are not all that racist, etc. Just like Frustrated Guy. But in most cases by age 30 (if not way sooner) they find out that it is not like that. First, whites are far more racist than they seem at first sight. Second, trying to be white when you are not pure white leads to self-hatred. An excellent example of that here:
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Well, passing is never easy, that’s the whole point. Actually, the main problem is the fact passing exists in the first place. It is a clear sign something is wrong with the society. If you’re not allowed to be what you are, or if you’re forced to pretend you’re something else in order to lead normal life and get privileges- well, it’s a clear sign something is wrong.
I know of Nezua’s story and I visit his blog often. Not as often as yours, though. My last visit there was about a week ago or so.
In any case, if race is not something you can choose, you can’t really be proud or ashamed of it. I know many people would disagree, but that’s how I feel. I am nor proud nor ashamed of being white. Maybe that’s because I don’t identify myself as a white person.
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The last paragraph of that post, quoting Nezua, is priceless:
“he acceptance I get from the brown world is always nourishing, always empowering. And the acceptance from the white world, when it thinks I am not brown, is always degrading, debasing. If you can understand that, then you understand a lot.”
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Mira:
Right, passing is a sign that something is wrong with society as a whole, that it is not freely letting people be who they just are.
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Mira:
Whether it makes sense or not people in America are proud and ashamed of their race. Nearly all whites are proud of being white but most think they are not – because white pride is seen as a politically incorrect, skinhead sort of thing.
I am left-handed. I was just born that way, like my father. It was not a choice. But even so when someone famous that I like is left-handed I notice it and it makes me happy inside, proud.
I think that is a good sort of pride, the kind of pride blacks had when Obama won. Even Condoleezza Rice, a Republican, was proud – you could see it all over her face.
The bad sort of pride, which is the skinhead sort, is where “I am great, therefore you are not”. It is a sickly sort of pride that can only feel good about itself by putting others down. And, unfortunately, that is a huge part of white racism.
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I understand. I guess it has a lot to do with the way you shape your personal identity. Race is obviously a very important thing when it comes to building one’s identity, especially for non-white people. Seeing someone who belongs to your own group doing great things, it makes you feel proud. Seeing someone of your own group doing bad things, makes you feel ashamed.
But what makes “your group” is not absolute; you, as a person, choose groups, issues and beliefs you want to identify with. This is not always a conscious decision, and it doesn’t always depends on you personally (but your group or culture); but it’s never absolute and it’s always subjective.
However, I won’t pretend that it’s as easy as that. Sometimes, a person is forced into a group (race, for example), and saying you don’t belong to that group or that you don’t identify with it is… delusional.
On the other hand, I try my best to avoid this. I try to build my identity mostly on things that have nothing to do with my race, ethnicity, nationality, or even gender. It’s not always easy, but I try (I try mostly because I don’t believe in being proud or ashamed of things you didn’t choose or can’t change. It’s not always possible, though, especially when people try to put you in a box and force you to identify with a group).
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abagond, you wrote:
“Whether it makes sense or not people in America are proud and ashamed of their race. Nearly all whites are proud of being white but most think they are not – because white pride is seen as a politically incorrect, skinhead sort of thing.”
Sorry, but this is just silly. Whites give virtually no thought to being white. That thought is one confined to white supremacists. Whites are concerned about other affiliations, particularly when the affiliations can be changed.
You wrote:
“I am left-handed. I was just born that way, like my father. It was not a choice. But even so when someone famous that I like is left-handed I notice it and it makes me happy inside, proud. ”
The way you have characterized left-handedness, it appears you view it as a handicap, and are thus impressed when someone overcomes the handicap and achieves fame.
Meanwhile, George Bush (41), Bill Clinton, and, I think, Barack Obama, are left-handed. Does left-handedness help people become president? Or are there other traits that enable people to become president?
I am left-handed too. But learning about famous people who are left-handed has no impact on my feelings of pride. I was a competitive baseball pitcher through high school. On the other hand, learning the pitching techniques of famous left-handed pitchers was important to me.
It is, however, interesting to understand something about brain function and what it means when your right hemisphere has some dominance over your left. But at that point the issue of left-handedness becomes a personal internal exploration.
Your view of Who Is Left-Handed attaches importance to superficial issues. Your view ignores the important factors of success by depending on the same form of psychology as advertising.
Psychologists love to study success. Malcolm Gladwell looked into success. The bottom line is this — it takes about 10,000 hours of practice to reach your peak.
Whether you are an athlete, an artist, a writer, a doctor, it will take you that many hours of training to become the best you can be — If You Practice the Right Way. Frankly, most people fall short of their potential even though they do practice.
But all the realities of practice and striving for a goal are ignored by those who look at a successful person and feel something warm and fuzzy based on the knowledge that both of you are left-handed.
You wrote:
“I think that is a good sort of pride, the kind of pride blacks had when Obama won.”
Since Obama’s mother was white and Obama had the characteristics noticed by Harry Reid and Joe Biden, it is obvious Obama won the election because he is a hybrid for whom whites were willing to vote.
Thus, his election was the highest form of blacks seeking approval from whites.
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abagond,
Have you read any of Broyard’s writing? You might want to read his famous short story — What the Cystoscope Said.
Bottom line — he was an excellent writer. A big talent.
There have been few black writers with his talent. One of the others is Ralph Ellison. On the other hand, I think Richard Wright was much less talented.
Where are the black writers? Lately more have emerged. But very few have talent.
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“In America only a few people can choose their race, like blacks who can pass for white. But even for them, as with Anatole Broyard above, it is not as easy as you would think.
Some people think they can be “white”, if not in the strict sense at least for the most purposes. They tell themselves that whites are not all that racist, etc. Just like Frustrated Guy. But in most cases by age 30 (if not way sooner) they find out that it is not like that. First, whites are far more racist than they seem at first sight. Second, trying to be white when you are not pure white leads to self-hatred. An excellent example of that here:”
I have already made far too many posts on this topic, so I will try to make this the last one. It’s a common misunderstanding that mixed race people can choose their race. Other people assign your race. A huge problem that ambiguous looking multiracials face is that there is no social consensus over how they should be classified. So, for example, some black people might consider a lady who looks like Mariah Carey to be black (if they are aware of her African ancestry), while many others would reject the idea that she is black. Thus she cannot make any claim to being African American confident that someone won’t come out of the woodwork and challenge it. The same is true when it comes to white identification. I think this is what Mariah meant by “But in your heart-uncertainty forever lies” in her song “Outside.”
I think that much depends on physical appearance. The average person who has one black parent and one white parent probably looks something like Halle Berry/Alicia Keys/Jordin Sparks (though likely not quite as attractive as these girls). They are sufficiently African in appearance that they can assimilate into the black community if they wish to without too much difficulty. However, there is a minority of black-white biracials who fall outside the range of what is considered black by blacks themselves. African Americans accept people of a very wide range of appearances into their group, but this acceptance isn’t infinite. So the biracials who are not obviously of African descent oftentimes have the “tragic mulatto” experience to some extent, where they lack the ability to definitively claim a racial in-group. That’s what Mariah’s song was about. I’ve heard people complain about how Mariah Carey and Jennifer Beals tell so many sob stories about growing up multiracial. Perhaps they do go overboard with it, but there is reality that underlies it. For people living under these conditions, the primary goal is to avoid complete social exclusion. The difficulties they face are inescapable; it results from being too white to be black and too black to be white in a society with an intense division between blacks and whites. It’s not simply a problem of trying to be white when you’re not. That’s why I find your notion that people like us are simply “blacks who can pass for white” to be quite offensive. My social situation is nothing like yours, believe me.
As for the level of racism among whites, I suspect that I know much more about it than you. The bulk of the people I know are white. My mom is white. Yes, there is racism and prejudice among them. Everyone knows that. But there’s racism and prejudice among all groups, including blacks and mixed race people. I don’t find white prejudice in most cases to be particularly extreme. The average white person is not David Duke. I think most white racism these days originates in white people’s fear over violent crime committed in urban areas. They see all these stories on the local news about awful crimes committed by poor, young black men and wrongly associate all blacks with those crimes. Even though it’s not right to stereotype, I think any comprehensive anti-racism strategy needs to address the problems of criminality in urban areas.
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Abagond, I was spending time with family down south for a few weeks. Just got back to L.A. yesterday. That’s why you’re seeing 2 different IPs. WordPress autofills the email address and I forgot to change it back over before posting. It’s the same guy, rest assured.
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Frustated Guy said: The bulk of the people I know are white…I don’t find white prejudice in most cases to be particularly extreme. The bulk of the people I know are white… The average white person is not David Duke.
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Racism cannot be simply reduced to simply screaming out the n-word, waving the nazi flag..etc
It is SYSTEMIC and permeates all of society. Non-white people could have all the white friends/family in the world and still suffer from racism.
Racism is evident in the job market:
Racism is evident in the (in)justice system:
-Breaking Rank by Norm Stamper
-The Fence by Dick Lehr
Racism is evident in the disparities of resources:
-The Hidden Cost of being African-American by Thomas Shapiro
-Color of Wealth by Betsy Leondar-Wright & Meizhu Lui
Racism is evident in the disparities in health:
-Dying while Black by Vernellia R. Randal
-Killing the Black body by Dorothy Roberts
Racism is evident in how non-white Native people are treated today.
-From a Native Daughter: colonialism/sovergeinity in Hawai’i By Haunani-kay Trask
Racism is evident in how Asians are depicted:
-Yellow by Frank Wu
For anyone to say white prejudice/racism/white supremacy is not extreme is quite laughable and worse, dismissed as something minor is very dangerous because it gives the FALSE illusion that we are in some “post-racial” society and gives another EXCUSE why we should ignore the current mistreatment people of color are suffering today.
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@Jade
Right On!!!
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Jade:
Thank you for all those sources!! Especially the ones on disparities in health since I want to do a post on that.
I have read parts of “Yellow”. It is about the racism that Asian Americans experience in general, not just how they are depicted. It is an excellent book! I highly recommend it to anyone who wants to know more about racism in America.
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abagond, you wrote:
“I have read parts of “Yellow”. It is about the racism that Asian Americans experience in general, not just how they are depicted.”
Yeah. It’s terrible the way people think asians are good at math. This whole math thing gets taken to extremes by admissions departments at all the top colleges in the US. They are so certain the asian kids are good at math that they admit huge numbers of them. But they just keep coming. It’s gotten out of hand.
You wrote:
“It is an excellent book! I highly recommend it to anyone who wants to know more about racism in America.”
Sure. Here in American we’ve got every kind of racism known to man. Blacks versus whites, versus asians. And if you drill down a bit, you can find ethnic strife, Serbs and Croatians and squabbles over religion. Not just those big issues like muslims hoping to finish off the Jews, but Methodists going against Presbyterians. Nuns fighting with priests. It’s a jungle out there.
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“Just like you are doing, trying to make everything seem as though nothing is wrong with white racism, they are just righteous and a peaceful people no harm to anyone.”
I’m not trying to depict white people as angels. As I noted earlier, I believe that much white racism towards minorities (blacks and increasingly Hispanics) is rooted in their fear over social pathologies afflicting minority neighborhoods. However, I know from personal experience that some white people dislike minorities just for who they are. I’ve met individuals who told me they consider blacks and Asians to be ugly, for example. So there are multiple dimensions of white prejudice. However, white people are not a “cancer” either. They are fallen creatures like you and me.
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If you have a majority of black ancestory you can claim being black.
Mariah Carey and Obama are half black, which isn’t a majority. Their white ancestory is equal to their black ancestory.
However Michele Obama which has a distant white ancestory has more black ancestrys- therefore she is BLACK.
It is that simple. It is said that the majority of black americans are at least 79 % black. This means their white and native american ancestory are insignificant — or at least are dwarfed by their african ancestory.
Tht man who “passed as white” was more white to begin with.
Granted you can tell he has some black ancestory. If you were to count his white ancestors — they would outnumber non-white….
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“I don’t find white prejudice in most cases to be particularly extreme.”
No you wouldn’t would you? Any black or hispanic racism is a result of white racism. Who do you think taught them this?
who do you think inculcated them with internalized racism? Racism in all it’s forms are not equal. The white racism we see today is insidious. It’s not overt as it was in the past. Whites make shifts to appear non-racist. Every hear of institutional racism? that can be more damaging. It’s nice to know that you know many whites who are not ‘racist’.
“African Americans accept people of a very wide range of appearances into their group, but this acceptance isn’t infinite.”
It’s too bad whites never did this on any level or any range in appearance.
“The difficulties they face are inescapable; it results from being too white to be black and too black to be white in a society with an intense division between blacks and whites. It’s not simply a problem of trying to be white when you’re not. That’s why I find your notion that people like us are simply “blacks who can pass for white” to be quite offensive. My social situation is nothing like yours, believe me. ”
There are plenty of ‘white’ looking blacks, for lack of a better term, who identify as black and remain in black communities. They have no problem with their black identities and have learnt to navigate their way around naysayers. The ones who probably have problems, are the ones who constantly harp on their mixedness and never let other black people forget it. What it boils down to is that old saying; “Anything but black”.
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Oh and Abagond, just in case you were wondering, I’m not afflicted with self-hatred or anything. I attempted to adopt a black identity in the past, but it didn’t work out. Being in this situation is way more complex and difficult than most people imagine.
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How do you adopt a black identity?
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“How do you adopt a black identity?”
Well, that’s the problem really. If racial identity has to be treated as a project to be undertaken, you have issues.
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Just be yourself. Theres no concrete definition for being black.
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Racial identity SHOULD be determined on the basis of your ACTUAL GENETIC and CULTURAL background NOT on the “PERCEPTIONS” or STEREOTYPES of what OTHERS “THINK” your racial identity is based on what they “THINK you LOOK LIKE”.
You racial identity IS NOT what you “LOOK LIKE” but what you ACTUALLY ARE.
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herneith, you wrote:
“Any black or hispanic racism is a result of white racism. Who do you think taught them this? Who do you think inculcated them with internalized racism? ”
Ah. So you believe the Hutus slaughtered 800,000 Tutsis in Rwanda as a result of learning something from whites.
Based on your views on black learning abilities, it appears you believe blacks are particularly good at learning how to hate, but not so good at learning math.
Or, putting it another way, you believe blacks are the most simple-minded, most easily deceived group of buffoons the world has known.
However, it is clear you are speaking for yourself.
You wrote:
“Racism in all it’s forms are not equal. The white racism we see today is insidious.”
It’s terrible. You see it everywhere. Medicaid, free public schools, rent subsidies, food stamps, pre-school programs, after-school programs, 200 bonus points added to the SAT scores of blacks applying to college, affirmative action hiring. There are all those millionaire black sports and entertainment stars. It’s brutal.
You wrote:
“It’s not overt as it was in the past. Whites make shifts to appear non-racist. Every hear of institutional racism?”
Yeah, we whites have meetings about this. When we see that our tricks have been uncovered, we get together and develop ways to hide our true goals of cutting off blacks from mainstream life in America. We brainstorm about this. It’s fun.
However, some of our ideas might seem to make little sense. I was at one of our big meetings ( I can’t tell you where it was held) a few years ago when we discussed the possibility of fooling blacks into thinking they had arrived by appointing a black president.
Maybe it’s news to you, but whites know who will become president at least a year before the actual election. All the election stuff is just a show and we know how these shows end before they begin. So we held the meeting and decided on installing a black president to divert the attentions of blacks, allowing us to go our merry way, secretly, doing our usual mischief without detection.
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Ah. So you believe the Hutus slaughtered 800,000 Tutsis in Rwanda as a result of learning something from whites.
No, I believe that that slaughter was something other than racism. Something very like racism, perhaps, but “racism” as it’s being discussed here is a very singular and historical construct. It means that certain peoples in certain types of bodies are inferior or “different subspecies” by nature.
The Hutu logic regarding Tutsi inferiority is not exactly based on the notion of biological difference or inferiority, as far as I know: it’s based on history.
So I’d hesitate to call it racism.
Not all the evilness that people do in the world is attributable to race, No-Slappz, and neither is all the genocide. One doesn’t have to believe in race in order to try to eliminate another people.
It seems to me that your logic runs like this:
Hitler committed genocide. Hitler was a racist. Thus, those who commit genocide are racists.
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Maybe it’s news to you, but whites know who will become president at least a year before the actual election. All the election stuff is just a show and we know how these shows end before they begin. So we held the meeting and decided on installing a black president to divert the attentions of blacks, allowing us to go our merry way, secretly, doing our usual mischief without detection.
And I’m happy to say that at last year’s meeting, I helped block your proposal to instate David Duke as president. 😀
This “divert the attention of blacks” thing is something you and the other segregationist reactionaries came up with to hide your butthurt over getting seriously whomped by the Alliance of Assimilationist, Progressivist Racists. 😀 😀
But shhhhhh. You don’t want to bring these meetings up in a public forum like this, No-Slapz. We’re gonna have to kick your ass out of the White Man’s Club if you go on like this. 😀 😀 😀
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“Maybe it’s news to you, but whites know who will become president at least a year before the actual election. All the election stuff is just a show and we know how these shows end before they begin. So we held the meeting and decided on installing a black president to divert the attentions of blacks, allowing us to go our merry way, secretly, doing our usual mischief without detection.”
LOL, good o’l slappz! I knew you wouldn’t let me down! Now, where are those lottery numbers? Oh, and thanks for providing more entertainment! Good ol’ slappz is back!
“butthurt”
LOL!
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Was not the war between the Tutsi and the Hutsi ‘tribal’ ie a war between the same ‘race’ of people but who viewed each other differently??
What do you think??
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Affirmatvie action is a bald-faced LIE as usual created by white people to make it look like whites are equal when they hire people for jobs.
Besides which, there aren’t enough black people to take ‘all’ the jobs from, white people nor placements in universities. It seems that they don’t want black people to have jobs unless they are menial or low paying. Those that aspire to the professions are deterred it seems, at every turn. Affirmative Action does serve a purpose in that a white person can use it as an excuse as to why they didn’t get into some school or get a particular job. “It was because of Affirmative Action!”is their clarion call. Blame it on the ‘coloureds’.
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It seems as though many commenters here have never heard of the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission — the EEOC. Or race-based lawsuits. Or the fact that for most jobs it has become impossible to administer qualification tests because blacks and hispanics rarely score as well as whites, despite the availability of review books and free test preparation coaching.
When it comes to college, the admissions departments of the country’s best private colleges add 200 bonus points to the SAT scores of blacks to make their scores competitive.
Feel free to challenge the facts. But the schools themselves admit to this.
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When it comes to college, the admissions departments of the country’s best private colleges add 200 bonus points to the SAT scores of blacks to make their scores competitive.
Feel free to challenge the facts. But the schools themselves admit to this.
The U. of Michigan case put an end to that practice years ago and, in any case, points weren’t added “to make them competitive”: they were added to make tie-breaking possible, as the Bakke vs. UC case stipulates.
What this means is that if you’re a black student, you were given enough points to put you ahead of a white student with a similar academic profile, but not enough points to move you into another academic profile all together.
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The racism against blacks in hiring is not imagined.
Any black person who “sounds white” on the telephone knows it for a fact. For example, you call up, they sound excited and when you get there all you get are dumb looks and dumber excuses. “Oh, she’s out. For the whole day”. Even though you made an appointment with her at ten. Not even an apology. Or: six openings are magically filled in the two hours since you last talked to them on the phone. Or they give you a test, they say you did not do well (which you know is a lie) and then two weeks later they give the same position to a white person with less experience – no test required!
The racism is so strong that according to one study employers are more likely to hire a white man WITH a prison record than a black man WITHOUT one.
The unemployment rate for blacks with a university degree is nearly double that for whites with the same education:
Most blacks do not have the time or the money for a lawsuit. The courts in America do not work well for poor people or even most middle-class people since to get anywhere you need a good lawyer and they cost money.
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Abagond, does the study you refer to control for such things as where those people studied, what they majored in, and what their GPA was? Unless those things are controlled for, the comparison is between apples and oranges.
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Also, you must not forget that neither unemployment nor people of different racial backgrounds are evenly distributed around the country.
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The study controlled for difference in education and so on by using nearly identical resumes. It was done by Devah Pager, a Princeton sociologist. I read about it on Racialicious:
Princeton sociologist Devah Pager conducted a fascinating study (“The Mark of a Criminal Record”) in which she sent black and white job candidates with nearly identical resumes to apply for low-level jobs. The results illustrated profound racial discrimination, as black candidates with criminal records were far less likely to receive callbacks for jobs than whites with criminal records. But that wasn’t all; in fact, black candidates without a criminal record were still less likely to receive a callback than whites with a criminal record. Her results suggest that there may be some sort of racial stigma attached to criminal behavior—a racial stereotype that all blacks are perceived as potential criminal offenders.
Source: http://www.racialicious.com/2009/06/03/drug-decriminalization-and-racial-inequality-in-pop-culture/
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thaddeus blanchette, you wrote:
“The U. of Michigan case put an end to that practice years ago and, in any case, points weren’t added “to make them competitive”: they were added to make tie-breaking possible, as the Bakke vs. UC case stipulates.”
Private universities can do whatever they want when it comes to admitting students. That is one big advantage of being private. If Harvard wanted to admit morons who were at the bottom of their high school classes and deny admisstion to anyone with SAT scores over 500, it could.
However, as I stated, schools routinely add 200 bonus points to the SAT scores of black students to make them competitive. Some schools add fewer points, but 200 is a common number. As always, my information comes from credible sources which are available to you.
Meanwhile, I see you would rather quibble over the U of Michigan.
However, as a state school, it was forced by law to end its preferential admissions policy.
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No Slappz said:
“However, as I stated, schools routinely add 200 bonus points to the SAT scores of black students to make them competitive. Some schools add fewer points, but 200 is a common number. As always, my information comes from credible sources which are available to you.”
Please state your source.
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abagond,
As I have stated, my views are based on credible sources, like the following.
I hope you have the patience and interest to read and understand the document. It is short enough. But you will not like its findings.
Click to access krueger_rothstein_turner.pdf
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abagon,
the last letters in the link may have been cut off.
It should end as follows — turner.pdf
Click to access krueger_rothstein_turner.pdf
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Abagond, thanks but I meant the study on racial differences in unemployment among the college educated. Pager’s study was about people applying for low-level jobs.
Also, as a general rule, you should read the actual study instead of relying on second-hand journalistic accounts.
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There are some tables from a new study on affirmative action in elite universities here: http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2009/10/affirmative-action-numbers.html . More here: http://www.nacacnet.org/EventsTraining/NC10/Baltimore/educational/Documents/C313.pdf
In admission to elite institutions, African Americans get an average of 310 bonus SAT points compared to whites. In contrast, Asian Americans really get the shaft compared to whites. They are actively discriminated against. The data are from 1997, though, so things may have changed a bit.
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No one ever brings up the fact that athletes get a 200 point bonus at highly selective colleges, and legacies get a 160 point bonus (based on that same, old 1997 data). And the vast majority of these athletes are white. Where’s the uproar about that? Especially since athletes tend to do worse than average while in college?
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Natasha, it seems to me that legacy admissions are often discussed, whereas athlete admissions aren’t. I couldn’t find the data on athletes, can you point me towards it? Also, do you have data on their race?
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Jack, all here:
Click to access Opportunity%20Cost%20of%20Admission%20Preferences%20Espenshade%20Chung%20June%202005.pdf
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Thanks. I will look into it. Interestingly, in the abstract they say that “Eliminating affirmative action would substantially reduce the share of African Americans and Hispanics among admitted students. Preferences for athletes and legacies, however, only mildly displace members of minority groups.”
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Eliminating affirmative action would substantially reduce the share of African Americans and Hispanics among admitted students. Preferences for athletes and legacies, however, only mildly displace members of minority groups.
…Obviously. But that they are taking away places from those that might be more qualified (as indicated by SAT scores and grades, whatever those are worth), namely other white and Asian students, is also obvious. People get up in arms about black students taking spots from white students but the amount of tip (bonus points) for athletes and blacks are the same and they apply in similar numbers.
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mynameismyname
Mayhue,
In Bliss’ autobiography, she mentions a white classmate of her father saying that he didn’t know Anatole was black not only because of his appearance but also due to “the way he spoke”. I guess he didn’t have the “negro dialect” either. This tricked some folks! LOL.
Yes, many blacks in the literary world knew that he was of his true identity. In the days of “passing”, it was seen as an act of support for “obvious” blacks not to “out” the “passing” blacks.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Yes that does make sense. This is why the tragic mulatto was/is such a powerful metaphor and why Imitation of Life resonated with some Blacks who could conceivably and were able to Pass. Survival instincts were probably pre-eminent therefore another Black person who noticed someone Passing may have gotten the nod, but they didn’t out that person due to social and racial survival.
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He may have been light skinned but he is obviously mixed at least in that picture. There is no way I would look at this man and think he is 100% white, or not having any black blood in him. How did he fool anyone? Did they not notice how he probably never left the house when it rained lol for real I wanna know
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Arianna,
It’s interesting. To me, he looks white.
Another proof “race” is a social thing.
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The Princeton study by Espenshade states the following:
“We prepared an alternate simulation by ranking applicants on the basis of their SAT scores and admitting students having the top 9,988 scores (the actual number of students accepted).
“This is the closest that any of our simulations comes to choosing a class solely on the basis of academic merit.
“Applicants in this simulation average 1512 on their SATs. Compared to students who were actually admitted, the shares of most student groups decline in the simulation—from 51.4 percent to 47.7 for whites, from 9.0 to 0.9 for African Americans, from 7.9 to 2.2 for Hispanics, from 10.2 to 1.9 for athletes, and from 6.5 to 3.2 for legacies.
“Only the share of Asians increases when SAT scores dominate—from 23.7 to 38.7 percent.
“These results are qualitatively similar to effects reported by Klitgaard (1985:29) had Harvard’s Class of 1975 been chosen on the basis of SAT verbal scores alone.
“The percentage of admitted students who were alumni sons would have declined from 13.6 to 6.1, of athletes from 23.6 to 4.5, and of African Americans from 7.1 to 1.1.
“The proportion of scholarship students would have remained unchanged at 55 percent.”
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natasha w, you wrote:
“No one ever brings up the fact that athletes get a 200 point bonus at highly selective colleges, and legacies get a 160 point bonus (based on that same, old 1997 data).”
Wrong. The topic is regularly discussed. But, with respect to this discussion, it is irrelevant. I raised the issue of blacks getting bonus points added to their SAT scores to illustrate the point that all the way through school — from kindergarten and graduate school — blacks receive lower scores on standardized tests than whites and asians.
The issue of fairness in college admissions is a different topic.
You wrote:
“And the vast majority of these athletes are white.”
Since the vast majority of college students are white, you are stating the obvious. However, I have no doubt that schools looking to build the best possible athletic teams will look for the best athletes. If the desired athlete is black and he needs a few more bonus points, he/she will get them.
These days, Title IX has a lot to do with college athletics and admissions. Can’t forget the girls.
You wrote:
“Where’s the uproar about that? Especially since athletes tend to do worse than average while in college?”
What’s the reason for an uproar?
By the way, Ivy League colleges do NOT give athletic scholarships. They might admit a student PARTLY because of high school athletic success. But unlike the schools with big athletic programs, the Ivy League schools put their priority on getting good students. Thus, an athlete can quit the team without losing anything.
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Wrong. The topic is regularly discussed.
Not nearly as much as the “Affirmative Action Issue” aka “Why the hell are we letting these underqualified black kids into our good schools?” I hear of the athlete issue once in a while, but I can’t escape the affirmative action discussion. If you say it is discussed as often, you’re either lying to yourself or lying to me and everyone else. With your track record, I’d think both.
Since the vast majority of college students are white, you are stating the obvious. However, I have no doubt that schools looking to build the best possible athletic teams will look for the best athletes. If the desired athlete is black and he needs a few more bonus points, he/she will get them.
Your ability to dodge the point is tres unique. The point is that the athletes are not black. Since it is so obvious, as you stated, that the majority of people/college students are black. And you’re saying “bonus points” as if you have any idea of how these things work. There is a very fluid system that doesn’t consist of simply lopping points on to a person’s SAT score. No student who a college believes will be unable to handle the college’s work will be admitted. That goes for all students. And I know this as a fact because the college I attended is one contained in that study and I’ve spoken candidly with admission officials about this.
What’s the reason for an uproar?
Since people want to be “outraged” about colleges and their admission policies concerning minorities, then they should be similarly outraged about colleges and their policies concerning athletes. Because, as mentioned previously, athletes tend to do worse in college. You should be outraged, no slappz! Those good for nothing athletes with low SAT scores and poor grades while in college! Why choose them, when you can take an Asian with a 2400 SAT and all AP courses?
Frankly, I think anyone complaining about either minorities or athletes is just whining. Colleges are looking for certain students. They are allowed to do so. Like I said, they would never admit a student that they felt could not handle their level of coursework.
By the way, Ivy League colleges do NOT give athletic scholarships. They might admit a student PARTLY because of high school athletic success. But unlike the schools with big athletic programs, the Ivy League schools put their priority on getting good students. Thus, an athlete can quit the team without losing anything.
Um, you’re speaking to an Ivy grad. I know exactly what they give and do not give. Admission is not partly based on athletic success, top athletes are practically shoo-ins at Ivies where athletics are thought to add much to college spirit and solidarity. There is a base-line for all students, but if an athlete meets that fluid line, they are in. And athletes are very much discouraged to quit early on by athletic directors. If you believe that they are partly admitted based on athletic success (with a 200 point “bonus?”), then black students are partly admitted based on their minority status.
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“Since it is so obvious, as you stated, that the majority of people/college students are black.”
…should be are white. Obviously. Right, no slappz?
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Oh, right… this is off topic. Sorry, abagond. The mark of a good troll — lures everyone off the subject.
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natasha w, you wrote:
“No student who a college believes will be unable to handle the college’s work will be admitted. That goes for all students. And I know this as a fact because the college I attended is one contained in that study and I’ve spoken candidly with admission officials about this.”
As you said, you went to an Ivy League school, one of those schools that does NOT give athletic scholarships, unlike Big Ten schools.
Thus, the comments from admissions people at your school only confirm my statements.
Meanwhile, I do not care one bit when black students get 200 bonus points added to their SAT scores — which they do get. I merely used the SAT story to show that most blacks are less academically qualified to attend top US schools than most whites and asians.
Furthermore, those who get athletic scholarships to the schools with the best teams are very often hoping for careers in sports. I hope they are all good enough to go pro. Most of those students, however, barely qualify as real students. So what?
Also, I wrote that the Ivies do NOT give athletic scholarships. Your response confirmed everything I wrote. In other words, you merely wanted to quibble. That’s okay. But that’s what you were doing.
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Meanwhile, I do not care one bit when black students get 200 bonus points added to their SAT scores — which they do get. I merely used the SAT story to show that most blacks are less academically qualified to attend top US schools than most whites and asians.
That is if you believe that SAT scores are an accurate reflection of academic qualification. As I’m sure you know, SAT scores can be improved greatly from PSAT scores and from test to test, based on preparation. One would need the resources to make such an improvement though, or parents who are willing to sacrifice to invest in such preparation which can be quite costly.
Also, I wrote that the Ivies do NOT give athletic scholarships. Your response confirmed everything I wrote. In other words, you merely wanted to quibble. That’s okay. But that’s what you were doing.
I don’t want to just debate with you; I’m trying to clarify my point. And you’re the one who responded to me, initially. I wouldn’t have bothered reading anything by you if my name wasn’t the first word I saw.
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Also, I fail to see how not having athletic scholarships proves anything besides… nothing. That’s beside the point of the fact that many selective colleges choose non-minority students on factors besides scores and grades. Legacies as I mentioned, who are overwhelming WASPY, have a near double admissions rate at many Ivies and they receive a near 200 tip as well. But they tend to do about the same when they are in the colleges, whereas athletes do not.
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natasha w, you wrote:
“That is if you believe that SAT scores are an accurate reflection of academic qualification.”
It is more than obvious that SAT scores correlate highly with a student’s capacity to handle college-level academic subjects. The kids accepted at MIT have an average Math SAT score of about 750. Predictably, MIT produces many excellent engineers and scientists.
You wrote:
“As I’m sure you know, SAT scores can be improved greatly from PSAT scores and from test to test, based on preparation.”
In other words, it takes some practice and training before a student’s brain is functioning close to its full potential. Just like lifting weights. By training with weights a person can increase the strength of his muscles. He has the same muscles, but training has pushed them to operate closer to their upper limit. Brains are the same. Actually, better. They are even more malleable than muscles.
You wrote:
“One would need the resources to make such an improvement though, or parents who are willing to sacrifice to invest in such preparation which can be quite costly.”
Here in NY City, there are SAT review courses offered for free. Moreover, SAT review books cost only a few dollars.
You claim its takes “resources” — meaning money — to improve SAT scores. I say it takes “resourcefulness.”
If a kid and his parents are aiming for higher SAT scores, the necessary steps are obvious and almost free.
Bottom line — you are offering excuses for failure rather than prescriptions for success.
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Ao what was YOUR SAT score, NS? 😀
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TB, we are ignoring trolls, remember? You guys are forgetting that…
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@Natasha W:
Forget whom? Oh, you mean…the one who shall not be named? lol! ;-P
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thaddeus blanchette, you asked:
“Ao what was YOUR SAT score, NS”
This is the Internet. I can give you any answer and you cannot verify it or disprove it. Therefore, it seems pointless to quote numbers.
I went to engineering school. But not MIT. So you can reasonably conclude my math SAT score was below 750. However, if you accept my claim of having an engineering degree, you can also assume my math SAT was over 600.
You can take a shot at estimating my verbal SAT score based on my comments here. I have no idea where that will lead you.
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NS, my shot would be that your average SAT score – if it was over 600 – was barely that. You’re good at spitting out trivia, but very poor at syncretic analysis of facts. I’d say verbal in the 500s, myself.
Must be genetic.
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Ignore ’em or tweak ’em Natasha. One or the other. 😀
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How did this thread devolve into another another NS slugfest??
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I’d say verbal in the 500s, myself.
Must be genetic.
*snorts*
*thinks* Actually, seems about right. The first sentence, at least. 😀
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thad, you wrote:
“syncretic analysis of facts…”
Syncretic. In your case, it means mixing apples and oranges. And doing the mixing without the slightest understanding of the error.
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Syncretic. In your case, it means mixing apples and oranges. And doing the mixing without the slightest understanding of the error.
That sounds like the makings of a tasty fruit cocktail. How about adding some pineapple or raspberries? The raspberries would add a bit of tartness to it!
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frustrated guy,
You have no way of knowing what people would have considered Anatole today, because we don’t know him and there is no way to place him in our present context. I am a FIRM believer that race is fluid, and I certainly don’t want or need biracials to identify as black if they don’t feel that’s who they are-my annoyance is towards the fence riders and mercenaries who identify with whatever is convinietn. BTW, I don’t understand how you “try to be black and it doesn’t work out” lol. Either you are or you aren’t.
Anyway, I am a FIRM believer that race is not only your look, it’s your ideology. During the whole Obama campaign, no one questioned the race of Rev. Wright who is phenotypically more Euro looking than Barack. No one questions Louis Farrakhan’s race, and we certainly don’t question Malcolm. All have significant Euro ancestry, but who placates white sensibilities most, and therefore who is worth arguing over in the eyes of biracials and “enlightened” whites? Obama. No one wonders why those “halfie looking” militants are some of the strongest black scholars we have….they don’t start whining about white contribution to their existence with those brothas
Europeans, (nor the rest of the world) are NO MORE PROGRESSIVE when it comes to race than Americans are. I would say they are worse in a lot of ways. Acknowledging/demanding mixed race identity doesn’t make you racially knowledgeable or progressive. In the end your STILL working with the same faulty concept-the idea that you are scientifically different and your social experiences should fit into one category. This idea is even less true for biracials who tend to be physically diverse. I find the countries that slice and dice people by races and half-races the most- are also the MOST overtly racist…I’m looking at YOU Brazil, lol.
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PS, there is no black pathology. There is American pathology that affects Blacks or minorities more or less than others.
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Tragicmulattoes sez:
my annoyance is towards the fence riders and mercenaries who identify with whatever is convenient.
Don’t come to Brazil, then, unless you want a serious rise in blood pressure.
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“I am a FIRM believer that race is fluid, and I certainly don’t want or need biracials to identify as black if they don’t feel that’s who they are-my annoyance is towards the fence riders and mercenaries who identify with whatever is convinietn.”
When your a truly racially ambiguous person living a country where the vast majority can be clearly associated with and identify as a single race, you realize how important fence riding is.
“I don’t understand how you “try to be black and it doesn’t work out” lol. Either you are or you aren’t.”
Well, as you seem to suggest, race is socially constructed. Your race isn’t innate. It’s decided on by other people, and those people may disagree.
“Anyway, I am a FIRM believer that race is not only your look, it’s your ideology. During the whole Obama campaign, no one questioned the race of Rev. Wright who is phenotypically more Euro looking than Barack. No one questions Louis Farrakhan’s race, and we certainly don’t question Malcolm. All have significant Euro ancestry, but who placates white sensibilities most, and therefore who is worth arguing over in the eyes of biracials and “enlightened” whites? Obama. No one wonders why those “halfie looking” militants are some of the strongest black scholars we have….they don’t start whining about white contribution to their existence with those brothas”
Race IS primarily about your look. These groups define themselves largely in terms of their visual characteristics. As I noted above, African Americans accept as members of their group people of a wide variety of physical appearances, but there is a threshold that once crossed means you can no longer claim to be black. Obama, Wright, Farrakhan, and Malcolm X have large amounts of white admixture, but they are still recognizably of African descent. If it’s not obvious you even have African blood, then your ability to be accepted as black becomes attenuated. This is why the most Euro-looking mixed race celebrities, like Mariah and Jennifer Beals, have intense multiracial identities. However, just because we can’t confidently identify as black doesn’t mean that we dislike black people or do not support the black struggle for equality. It doesn’t mean that we don’t cherish our African ancestors. The problem is no one, black or white, seems willing to recognize us as having that heritage so it naturally does not constitute the core of our self-understanding.
“Acknowledging/demanding mixed race identity doesn’t make you racially knowledgeable or progressive. In the end your STILL working with the same faulty concept-the idea that you are scientifically different and your social experiences should fit into one category.”
Actually, I don’t think that mixed race people are biologically distinctive from blacks or whites, at least not substantially so. I’ve actually been making a social constructivist argument for mixed race identity. My point is that blacks and whites view mixed race people, at least a large portion of them, as different from themselves and outside the bounds of the group. Given that many multiracial people are constructed as being non-black as well as non-white, they have an unassailable right to develop a new identity. You have no obligation to identify with a group that does not identify with you. However, I think mixed race people who don’t “look mixed” have an equal right to identify as multiracial because they should be able to claim both sides of their heritage.
“I find the countries that slice and dice people by races and half-races the most- are also the MOST overtly racist…I’m looking at YOU Brazil, lol.”
I’m not really sure how racist Brazil is in comparison to the United States. I’ve encountered a great deal of overt racism over here.
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When your a truly racially ambiguous person living a country where the vast majority can be clearly associated with and identify as a single race, you realize how important fence riding is.>>>
I am open to an explanation, because I don’t see it and I don’t want to respond to my own assumptions.
Well, as you seem to suggest, race is socially constructed. Your race isn’t innate. It’s decided on by other people, and those people may disagree.>>>
That’s very true, but who *doesn’t* suffer the indignity of an imposed identity? Every day people are living and being something other people demand or expect them NOT to be. Every day we negotiate who we are with who people want us to be. Black people and White people have to do it too. It’s annoying, yes. Perhaps more pronounced for the ambiguous looking individual, true. But I have a hard time seeing this as something that is unique to the biracial identity.
Race IS primarily about your look. These groups define themselves largely in terms of their visual characteristics. As I noted above, African Americans accept as members of their group people of a wide variety of physical appearances, but there is a threshold that once crossed means you can no longer claim to be black. Obama, Wright, Farrakhan, and Malcolm X have large amounts of white admixture, but they are still recognizably of African descent. If it’s not obvious you even have African blood, then your ability to be accepted as black becomes attenuated. This is why the most Euro-looking mixed race celebrities, like Mariah and Jennifer Beals, have intense multiracial identities. However, just because we can’t confidently identify as black doesn’t mean that we dislike black people or do not support the black struggle for equality. It doesn’t mean that we don’t cherish our African ancestors. The problem is no one, black or white, seems willing to recognize us as having that heritage so it naturally does not constitute the core of our self-understanding.>>>
This is where I disagree, and I find it difficult to use Mariah or Jennifer as examples because neither attempted to associate themselves with blackness initially-in fact Mariah speaks of her managements deliberate attempt to disassociate her with Blackness and Jennifer was “outted” (silly as it sounds). I understand your perspective here, if you don’t look black you won’t be treated as black unless you communicate your blackness) but I also see examples like Lena Horne or those who didn’t play the “don’t ask don’t tell” politics with their race, and I have yet to hear blacks questions her Blackness, although in her youth she was as ambiguous as Mariah.
Actually, I don’t think that mixed race people are biologically distinctive from blacks or whites, at least not substantially so. I’ve actually been making a social constructivist argument for mixed race identity. My point is that blacks and whites view mixed race people, at least a large portion of them, as different from themselves and outside the bounds of the group.>>>
This differs from much of the multiracial rhetoric that says blacks try force them into the black category. Black people tend to be more willing to claim those who claim them. I would argue that Black and White people traditionally construct Blackness in America slightly differently. I’ve heard a White teacher say that when Black students feel too comfortable around them, they start asking them if they’re really white. I’ve also read of similar stories on racialicious.
Given that many multiracial people are constructed as being non-black as well as non-white, they have an unassailable right to develop a new identity. You have no obligation to identify with a group that does not identify with you.>>>
True. But I would argue that within EVERY group people will attempt to regulate who *they* perceive can and can’t be members, and all members of said group won’t agree. Even White supremacist have the “who’s really white” debates, yet that doesn’t stop darker/olive Italians, Jews, etc. from being constructed as white by most whites. Again, I agree that a person has the right to self identify, the basis that Blacks don’t see ambiguous people as black is contrary to what I’ve witnessed. In fact, I think they are too willing to not question the race and racial allegiance of some people-ambiguous or not.
However, I think mixed race people who don’t “look mixed” have an equal right to identify as multiracial because they should be able to claim both sides of their heritage.>>>
Racial identity has never, and will never, be about claiming heritage. If heritage was really that important we probably wouldn’t dwell on the concept of race at all.
I’m not really sure how racist Brazil is in comparison to the United States. I’ve encountered a great deal of overt racism over here.>>>
People in the states who advocate for a mixed race identtiy seem to believe that Brazil’s social/legal ambiguity on racial categories has some sort of kumbaya affect on their society. But every Afro Brazillian and brown-leaning Pardo in the states I’ve met tell a completely different story. I simply caution people form seeing ANY racial category as the solution to this racial problem.
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^^^
Malcolm X, Farrakhan, and Rev. Wright aren’t products on interracial parentage so how do you know that they have “large amounts of white blood”? And other blacks don’t?
Other than that, I agree with TM’s comment.
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People in the states who advocate for a mixed race identtiy seem to believe that Brazil’s social/legal ambiguity on racial categories has some sort of kumbaya affect on their society. But every Afro Brazillian and brown-leaning Pardo in the states I’ve met tell a completely different story. I simply caution people form seeing ANY racial category as the solution to this racial problem.
Hear, hear!
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Frustrated Guy:
I would be interested to hear what you have to say about these two comments by Tragic Mulatto:
1. “I understand your perspective here, if you don’t look black you won’t be treated as black unless you communicate your blackness) but I also see examples like Lena Horne or those who didn’t play the “don’t ask don’t tell” politics with their race, and I have yet to hear blacks questions her Blackness, although in her youth she was as ambiguous as Mariah.”
2. “Again, I agree that a person has the right to self identify, the basis that Blacks don’t see ambiguous people as black is contrary to what I’ve witnessed. In fact, I think they are too willing to not question the race and racial allegiance of some people-ambiguous or not.”
I agree with her – that if you did a Lena Horne you would be accepted by most blacks – but I would like to hear what you have to say.
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“I am open to an explanation, because I don’t see it and I don’t want to respond to my own assumptions.”
This is a basic part of the modern “biracial experience.” If you can’t be clearly classified, you try to fall in with the group most willing to accept you. Some assimilate into the black world, some into the white, and some into the Latino.
“That’s very true, but who *doesn’t* suffer the indignity of an imposed identity? Every day people are living and being something other people demand or expect them NOT to be. Every day we negotiate who we are with who people want us to be. Black people and White people have to do it too. It’s annoying, yes. Perhaps more pronounced for the ambiguous looking individual, true. But I have a hard time seeing this as something that is unique to the biracial identity.”
This response doesn’t logically follow from the previous discussion.
“This is where I disagree, and I find it difficult to use Mariah or Jennifer as examples because neither attempted to associate themselves with blackness initially-in fact Mariah speaks of her managements deliberate attempt to disassociate her with Blackness and Jennifer was “outted” (silly as it sounds). I understand your perspective here, if you don’t look black you won’t be treated as black unless you communicate your blackness) but I also see examples like Lena Horne or those who didn’t play the “don’t ask don’t tell” politics with their race, and I have yet to hear blacks questions her Blackness, although in her youth she was as ambiguous as Mariah.”
Well Mariah and Jennifer are people in real life. Before they became stars they had this biracial experience of being unable to identify, which they have discussed copiously over the years. That’s what I was referring to. The fact that the entertainment industry decided to market them as white isn’t all that relevant to the broader issue of racial classification.
As for Lena Horne, from what I read on Wikipedia, she grew up in entirely different circumstances than mixed race people do today. She was born into the African American elite way back in the early 20th century. I think most mixed race kids these days are raised in predominantly white neighborhoods and are certainly not integrated into any light skinned elite community like Horne was. Furthermore, from what I understand, the definition of blackness has become more restrictive since the 1960s. Physical characteristics matter more, cultural characteristics matter more, so Lena Horne would probably have a more difficult time of it if she were born in 1987 instead of 1917.
“Again, I agree that a person has the right to self identify, the basis that Blacks don’t see ambiguous people as black is contrary to what I’ve witnessed. In fact, I think they are too willing to not question the race and racial allegiance of some people-ambiguous or not.”
Now, I’m wondering which country you come from. Non-Latino mixed race individuals who resemble Mariah Carey or Jennifer Beals are rare in United States (I would bet a few hundred thousand at most), so I’m skeptical you have much knowledge about this first hand. If you go to multiracial websites, or Youtube channels, and so on there’s a great deal of commentary there over mixed race people’s difficulties in assimilating into any ethnic community, black or otherwise. This is a unifying experience for the group, something all of us are familiar with to some extent.
“People in the states who advocate for a mixed race identtiy seem to believe that Brazil’s social/legal ambiguity on racial categories has some sort of kumbaya affect on their society. But every Afro Brazillian and brown-leaning Pardo in the states I’ve met tell a completely different story. I simply caution people form seeing ANY racial category as the solution to this racial problem.”
I doubt multiracialism in the United States will play out anything like it has in Brazil. The social conditions under which it is developing are totally different. I think the relaxation of racial categories in the United States is part of a larger trend in which race in general is becoming less important. The fact that there are so many more mixed race people (produced through consensual unions rather than imperial conquest) in the country is a reflection of this amelioration of racism.
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mynameismyname,
Malcolm X has a White Grandfather. People’s mental image of Malcolm is usually Denzel from Spike’s movie, but he was actually quite light and fair haired. In fact, many people (including his siblings) believed his look was advantageous for him as he rose through the ranks in the NOI.
Rev Wright and Farakhan are visually AS mixed looking as Obama, regardless of their parentage. What’s expressed in their physical appearance, yet who is targeted to play racial politics is what I’m addressing
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^^^
Thank you so much saying that, TM, you pretty much prove what I was saying in the TJ Holmes post: ideas on “mixed race” are primarily VISUALLY driven. In the eyes of many, Malcolm, Wright and Farrakhan are “visibly part white”. As are most blacks who are considered “light skinned”. If they had the same amount of (suspected) white blood but looked “plainly black”, no one would be calling them mixed.
So, I argue, if people clearly differentiate between African Americans who are “visually mixed” and “plainly black”, whose to say that the “one drop rule” is as concrete as some say? I mean, the only difference between Brazil or South Africa, is that in the U.S. ,”mulatto” -appearing people are labeled black alongside those who look “plainly black”. Yet, it’s clear that many view them quite differently from their “plainly/traditionally black”-looking counterparts.
What say you? I really am interested in you and Frustrated Guy’s opinion.
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This is a basic part of the modern “biracial experience.” If you can’t be clearly classified, you try to fall in with the group most willing to accept you. Some assimilate into the black world, some into the white, and some into the Latino.>>>
This is not fence-riding. This is the opposite of what I’m discussing.
“That’s very true, but who *doesn’t* suffer the indignity of an imposed identity? Every day people are living and being something other people demand or expect them NOT to be. Every day we negotiate who we are with who people want us to be. Black people and White people have to do it too. It’s annoying, yes. Perhaps more pronounced for the ambiguous looking individual, true. But I have a hard time seeing this as something that is unique to the biracial identity.”
This response doesn’t logically follow from the previous discussion.>>>
How? You’re saying that “Your race isn’t innate. It’s decided on by other people”. People who are called black and people who are called white, are called such because society TELLS US this is what we are as well, regardless of if we want to identify with the non-tangible characteristics of Blackness or Whiteness, we’re all *pressure*d to comply in some way shape or form. However, non-Whites especially, have a history of fighting those imposed expectations, and also of attempting to claim power by identifying themselves however they choose (hence “African-American, Afro-American, etc). Those attempts at self identification and self realization are really no different than the biracial question. The difference you suggest is that you *look* too different, which I understand. But I don’t see it as a barrier to your ability to firmly secure a Black OR White racial identity. You have to choose to do it and realize you will always be negotiating your racial identity…like everyone else.
Well Mariah and Jennifer are people in real life. Before they became stars they had this biracial experience of being unable to identify, which they have discussed copiously over the years. That’s what I was referring to. The fact that the entertainment industry decided to market them as white isn’t all that relevant to the broader issue of racial classification.>>>>
I completely disagree. They had a choice in how they would be marketed as well, and they chose to comply with White or non-racial identities that they initially felt would make their careers more lucrative. I’m not saying they had to come out on some Erykah Badu shit. But they still made choices. I also don’t believe that even when you’re that ambiguous looking, you MUST have a history of feeling out-casted, at least not more than any other child judged by their color (be it too dark or too light) or looks. I grew up with a lot of creoles, some who appear to be White or Latin, but call themselves Black. The idea that I could challenge that in my community would be laughable, so I know this is contextual. I would venture to say that these problems often arise for biracial children depending on the ideology they learn from their parents regarding how to deal with race and racism.
As for Lena Horne, from what I read on Wikipedia, she grew up in entirely different circumstances than mixed race people do today. She was born into the African American elite way back in the early 20th century. I think most mixed race kids these days are raised in predominantly white neighborhoods and are certainly not integrated into any light skinned elite community like Horne was.
Furthermore, from what I understand, the definition of blackness has become more restrictive since the 1960s. Physical characteristics matter more, cultural characteristics matter more, so Lena Horne would probably have a more difficult time of it if she were born in 1987 instead of 1917.>>>>
The majority of mixed race children do not grow up in white neighborhoods. At least not Black/White mixed ones. While they are more likely to live in white neighborhoods than say, black children, the majority live in urbanized multi-ethnic communities. Which makes the role of White mothers in the multiracial movement all the more interesting.
Also, Mariah and Jennifer are 40+ years old, so I would hardly call them contemporary either. They came from the 60’s & 70’s in which people were still generally referring to children with one black parent as black. Lena was from a higher economic class, but theoretically that would have made it easier for her to disassociate if she so chose, and plenty did (Anatole). With financial access to education and other resources, she could have moved to another state and blended as a middle class ethnic white woman. Carol Channing also kept her ancestry quiet until she felt it was safe (i.e not monetarily risky) to do so.
I don’t know if the definition has become more restrictive, or if people who previously felt restricted to be Black no longer feel such social restriction. I don’t know. I do know that it’s much more than just appearance or even “culture” (the two don’t always go hand in hand). I think it’s a matter of perspective, association, and “performance of race” as well. Not sure if this is making any sense. But Mariah has become whiter in appearance lately (blonde hair, etc), yet in the eyes of many she *seems* Blacker than she did when she first came out when she actually looked racially ambiguous with the dark curly hair. Call me crazy for saying I believe this is intentional.
Now, I’m wondering which country you come from. Non-Latino mixed race individuals who resemble Mariah Carey or Jennifer Beals are rare in United States (I would bet a few hundred thousand at most), so I’m skeptical you have much knowledge about this first hand.>>>
I’m a born and bred American from Los Angeles, and many MANY Louisiana/Alabama/Texas transports lived in my childhood neighborhood and attended my Catholic church. Trust me the ambiguous look is not that uncommon in the West, Southwest, and some parts of the Northwest. Some of them Mexicans you live next door to aren’t really Mexican.
If you go to multiracial websites, or Youtube channels, and so on there’s a great deal of commentary there over mixed race people’s difficulties in assimilating into any ethnic community, black or otherwise. This is a unifying experience for the group, something all of us are familiar with to some extent.>>>
Not to trivialize the feelings of others, but are all of these people ambiguous looking like Mariah or Jennifer? I would bet they aren’t. I would bet they get comments like “you look Black to me” or “I thought you were latina”. So how do you become socially ostracized because you look like something you don’t associate with? I’ve seen some of those videos, and often times the tensions they describe are hardly unique to biracial children (one girl described being called white by black teens because she didn’t listen to rap….as if black teens who don’t listen to rap don’t experience the same thing lol), but because the rhetorical frame they have is “it’s cuz I’m not really black or white”, that becomes the explanation for every racial experience they have. Rather than challenge racial essentialism they encounter, they say “well I guess I really AM white”. White kids who aren’t “white enough” don’t have that option. Nor do Black kids. I asked one girl why she didn’t tell those girls that she can listen to what she wants AND be who she is, and that they aren’t the authority on who is black and who isn’t…I got banned from her channel.
I doubt multiracialism in the United States will play out anything like it has in Brazil. The social conditions under which it is developing are totally different. I think the relaxation of racial categories in the United States is part of a larger trend in which race in general is becoming less important.>>>>
Some scholars are saying that’s exactly what’s happening now. And our racial history isn’t THAT different from Brazil’s. There is a heirarchy there, and there is one here. There’s is more pronounced, but just because the distribution of wealth by race here is less severe doesn’t mean it’s less of a problem. How does something become less important by creating more language and discourse to support it?
The fact that there are so many more mixed race people (produced through consensual unions rather than imperial conquest) in the country is a reflection of this amelioration of racism.>>>>
DEAD wrong. This is also aligned with the fallacy that mixed race people are less likely to be racist. Many of their parents are in relationships formed under racist assumptions to begin with (white beautiful trophy wives, big black dicks, etc). That’s why many of these relationships statistically don’t last very long (particularly Black/White ones). And the children inherit subtle racial assumptions from their parents behavior as well-even when their parents don’t discuss race outright. One girl on youtube (I wrote about her on my blog) said her Black mother told her not to trust Black women… Another hates Black men due to her fathers philandering with different White women…many of these children are hypersensitive to race and racism even if it’s never discussed in their home. And they use the existing racial language to make sense of their world. Same shit, new toilet bowl.
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Thank you so much saying that, TM, you pretty much prove what I was saying in the TJ Holmes post: ideas on “mixed race” are primarily VISUALLY driven. In the eyes of many, Malcolm, Wright and Farrakhan are “visibly part white”. As are most blacks who are considered “light skinned”. If they had the same amount of (suspected) white blood but looked “plainly black”, no one would be calling them mixed.>>>
But no one calls them mixed. That was my point. Not one person said, “hey Rev. Wright is whiter looking than Obama, why is he so racist?” He was that angry racist black preacher. Same with Farakhan who has become synonymous with White hate. People rarely look at them and question their blackness. I think race is a mixture of things, and it’s not entirely about appearance.
So, I argue, if people clearly differentiate between African Americans who are “visually mixed” and “plainly black”, whose to say that the “one drop rule” is as concrete as some say?>>>>
I don’t think it has EVER been concrete for anyone but Whites. Blacks have ALWAYS noticed differences among blacks, but they were all still black regardless of admixture. I think the logic behind the label for Blacks and White are different. I don’t believe in the one drop rule, but I also don’t believe one has to be pitch Black or entirely African to be absolutely Black or identify as such. And I don’t believe assigning percentages to someone’s racial makeup is a better solution to our “racial problem”. In some ways I think it’s absurd. Two people of the same parentage can look quite different and LIVE different experiences because of their differences in complexion or hair texture. Does that make them racially distinct? Not necessarily
I mean, the only difference between Brazil or South Africa, is that in the U.S. ,”mulatto” -appearing people are labeled black alongside those who look “plainly black”. Yet, it’s clear that many view them quite differently from their “plainly/traditionally black”-looking counterparts.>>>
This is true, but what I ask is, what has the colored label or the Pardo label done for race and racism in Brazil or South Africa? Nothing from what I’ve seen.
What say you? I really am interested in you and Frustrated Guy’s opinion.>>>
My dear, I have no solutions. Only questions lol.
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“The difference you suggest is that you *look* too different, which I understand. But I don’t see it as a barrier to your ability to firmly secure a Black OR White racial identity. You have to choose to do it and realize you will always be negotiating your racial identity…like everyone else.”
Nonsense. There are some people who fall into a nether region where they can’t secure a stable racial status, no matter how much negotiating they do.
“I completely disagree. They had a choice in how they would be marketed as well, and they chose to comply with White or non-racial identities that they initially felt would make their careers more lucrative. I’m not saying they had to come out on some Erykah Badu shit. But they still made choices.”
As I said, I was talking about those two ladies with respect to their personal life. I could care less how they were marketed or how they marketed themselves.
“I also don’t believe that even when you’re that ambiguous looking, you MUST have a history of feeling out-casted, at least not more than any other child judged by their color (be it too dark or too light) or looks. I grew up with a lot of creoles, some who appear to be White or Latin, but call themselves Black. The idea that I could challenge that in my community would be laughable, so I know this is contextual. I would venture to say that these problems often arise for biracial children depending on the ideology they learn from their parents regarding how to deal with race and racism.”
There is colorism within the black community. Some are considered too dark and some too light. However, those deemed too dark or too light are still regarded as black even if they suffer psychological abuse. That’s a different issue from being considered outside of the bounds of the group altogether.
It sounds like the creoles in your neighborhood formed some sort of cohesive community. Perhaps there was general agreement among them that all creoles were black regardless of color? Hardly any biracials belong to ethnic communities like that and are thus vulnerable to ostracism.
“The majority of mixed race children do not grow up in white neighborhoods. At least not Black/White mixed ones. While they are more likely to live in white neighborhoods than say, black children, the majority live in urbanized multi-ethnic communities. Which makes the role of White mothers in the multiracial movement all the more interesting.”
I haven’t seen hard numbers on this topic. I was just guessing most lived in white neighborhoods because most are raised by white moms. However, there aren’t many “urbanized multi-ethnic communities” in the United States due to high levels of residential segregation.
“I’m a born and bred American from Los Angeles, and many MANY Louisiana/Alabama/Texas transports lived in my childhood neighborhood and attended my Catholic church. Trust me the ambiguous look is not that uncommon in the West, Southwest, and some parts of the Northwest. Some of them Mexicans you live next door to aren’t really Mexican.”
Well, there’s not many “brown” people where I’m from. I’ve never met a Creole before as far as I know.
“Not to trivialize the feelings of others, but are all of these people ambiguous looking like Mariah or Jennifer? I would bet they aren’t. I would bet they get comments like “you look Black to me” or “I thought you were latina”. So how do you become socially ostracized because you look like something you don’t associate with?”
Not all of them, but alot are. I’m in that nebulous range. The experiences do differ a great deal by how you look, though.
“I’ve seen some of those videos, and often times the tensions they describe are hardly unique to biracial children (one girl described being called white by black teens because she didn’t listen to rap….as if black teens who don’t listen to rap don’t experience the same thing lol), but because the rhetorical frame they have is “it’s cuz I’m not really black or white”, that becomes the explanation for every racial experience they have. Rather than challenge racial essentialism they encounter, they say “well I guess I really AM white”. White kids who aren’t “white enough” don’t have that option. Nor do Black kids. I asked one girl why she didn’t tell those girls that she can listen to what she wants AND be who she is, and that they aren’t the authority on who is black and who isn’t…I got banned from her channel.”
If this were just a problem relating to culture or style, I wouldn’t be making all of these long-winded statements on this blog. Some mixed people out there really can fit in and they’re making a big deal over nothing, but for some it is a serious issue that they can’t extricate themselves from.
“Some scholars are saying that’s exactly what’s happening now. And our racial history isn’t THAT different from Brazil’s. There is a heirarchy there, and there is one here. There’s is more pronounced, but just because the distribution of wealth by race here is less severe doesn’t mean it’s less of a problem. How does something become less important by creating more language and discourse to support it?”
I’m not sure I’d trust what some unmentioned “scholars” are saying. I think I know alot about race relations in the United States and can tell things are getting better. Who’s the President again?
“DEAD wrong. This is also aligned with the fallacy that mixed race people are less likely to be racist. Many of their parents are in relationships formed under racist assumptions to begin with (white beautiful trophy wives, big black dicks, etc). That’s why many of these relationships statistically don’t last very long (particularly Black/White ones). And the children inherit subtle racial assumptions from their parents behavior as well-even when their parents don’t discuss race outright. One girl on youtube (I wrote about her on my blog) said her Black mother told her not to trust Black women… Another hates Black men due to her fathers philandering with different White women…many of these children are hypersensitive to race and racism even if it’s never discussed in their home. And they use the existing racial language to make sense of their world. Same shit, new toilet bowl.”
I never said mixed race people can’t be racist. They are human like everyone else. If you did not already know, blacks can also be racist, as is indicated by the slanders against mixed race people’s parents suggested in the paragraph quoted above.
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Nonsense. There are some people who fall into a nether region where they can’t secure a stable racial status, no matter how much negotiating they do.>>>
Very few people’s racial identities are EVER secure. This is what you do not understand. We may not negotiate in the same way, but we all do. Depending on who you talk to and where you are, people will respond to you differently-it’s up to YOU to decide who you are and how you will respond to those challenges. Just because im black to most (notice I said most) doesn’t mean IM the *same* kind of black to all people, and doesn’t mean Im not met with suspicion or even dislike based on my accent, class, culture, appearance. Racial ostracism is NOT unique to the biracial experience. Sorry. I’ve been straight shut out of groups of black women because I was a weird Nirvana-blasting Cali girl (with a natural) in a room full of Black southern debutantes. I didn’t meet their standards for a black woman. I can’t walk away on some Mariah shit because of it. You’re saying a Wentworth Miller looking dude will never be fully accepted as just black or just white. I’m saying I’ve already seen it happen. And if he decided he was black, I doubt an entire census of Blacks would reject that declaration. If you want absolute acceptance of who you are from people at all times, sorry, you dont want to be human in this world. What would a biracial category do-stop the questions and negotiation? I would bet my bottom dollar it wouldn’t-for several reasons.
As I said, I was talking about those two ladies with respect to their personal life. I could care less how they were marketed or how they marketed themselves.>>>
How can you separate their personal ideology from their professional behavior? Did they magically become different people when they became famous?
There is colorism within the black community. Some are considered too dark and some too light. However, those deemed too dark or too light are still regarded as black even if they suffer psychological abuse. That’s a different issue from being considered outside of the bounds of the group altogether.>>>
But there is no line in which one crosses where you are considered out of bounds. The physical differences between some light skinned blacks and some biracial identified individuals is non-existent. So at what point do you reach a threshold in which NO black person would identify you as black? I believe that threshold is when you look AND identify as white. But that has to be by your admission/desire. I’ve seen pics of Mariah in her youth, and I’ve also seen pics of her close childhood friends-they were black. I have a hard time believing no black children in her youth accepted her as she saw herself. Clearly some of them did.
It sounds like the creoles in your neighborhood formed some sort of cohesive community. Perhaps there was general agreement among them that all creoles were black regardless of color?>>>
I suppose the ones in my neighborhood, but I am under the impression they range in color and identification (though I heard White creoles now call themselves Cajuns). The ones I knew called themselves Black, but those same kids I grew up with would reject an African American label.
Hardly any biracials belong to ethnic communities like that and are thus vulnerable to ostracism.>>>
Some of those creoles, outsides of their home communities would be no less vulnerable to any racial affronts or ostracism than said ambiguous biracials. So the questions becomes whats the difference? The difference is their formative understandings of who they are. And this comes first and foremost from their homes. They are more sure about who they are regardless of what they look like, so anyone who questions it will have a much more difficult task in convincing them otherwise.
I haven’t seen hard numbers on this topic. I was just guessing most lived in white neighborhoods because most are raised by white moms. However, there aren’t many “urbanized multi-ethnic communities” in the United States due to high levels of residential segregation.>>>
By multiethnic I don’t mean predominantly black, but I mean not overwhelmingly white. Multiracials make up what…2 maybe 3% of the population-it’s quite possible that they are concentrated in urban/metropolitan areas. I guarantee you they aren’t in Iowa or North Dakota. They’re in NYC, LA, larger cities with more diverse populations.
Not all of them, but alot are. I’m in that nebulous range. The experiences do differ a great deal by how you look, though.>>>
I think it varies by how you look, where you are/who you’re talking to, and how you assert yourself.
If this were just a problem relating to culture or style, I wouldn’t be making all of these long-winded statements on this blog. Some mixed people out there really can fit in and they’re making a big deal over nothing, but for some it is a serious issue that they can’t extricate themselves from.>>>
Well, it would be against my philosophy to say this isn’t true. So I’ll just say I don’t think it’s the absolute truth.
I’m not sure I’d trust what some unmentioned “scholars” are saying. I think I know alot about race relations in the United States and can tell things are getting better. Who’s the President again?>>>
You’re displaying a weak sense of U.S history and an even weaker understanding of the way racism works in America. Less than a generation after slavery this country had black senators and congressman. LESS THAN A GENERATION. And this is *right before* one of the most brutal periods in U.S history for Blacks. We KNOW racist whites can elect black men to office-especially if he works in their interest (which in this election even some racist ones knew Palin wouldn’t cut it). We know they can live alongside blacks if they so choose. So what? How have poverty numbers changed? Why are we becoming more racially segregated than ever in the last 50 years? Why are we showing time and time again that a Black man with a BA degree has the employment opportunities of a white felon? Why do YOU discuss black behavior as a “pathology”? ONE black success story doesn’t speak for the masses. Even if he’s a black man in the white house. And BTW, these unnamed scholars spend their careers looking at this. You’re welcome to “google scholar” the words biracial heirarchy and see what you can dig up.
I never said mixed race people can’t be racist. They are human like everyone else. If you did not already know, blacks can also be racist, as is indicated by the slanders against mixed race people’s parents suggested in the paragraph quoted above.>>>
I wouldn’t call what I said racism, but I’m just not naive enough to think all of these relationships are formed without consideration of racist notions regarding sexuality and social value, when many of them are founded on them. Not all. Not most. But many. But I will say that this behavior is not exclusive to interracial relationships though.
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“Growing up in New York he got into fights because he was too black for the whites and too white for the blacks. ”
See, the position of this website is that one’s true race is socially determined. If this is indeed the case, than the above quote indicates that Anatole Broyard is a mixed race person because that’s how he was treated. Going by ancestry/genetics/phenotype he is quite clearly a white-leaning mixed race person.
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Once again. claiming that a near-white guy was the “first black literary critic for the New York Times” does not make blacks look good. It suggests to some that actual blacks (i.e. those of predominant African ancestry) are incapable of effectively competing in society.
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FG:
No, it suggests that the New York Times is racist.
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FG said:
“See, the position of this website is that one’s true race is socially determined. If this is indeed the case, than the above quote indicates that Anatole Broyard is a mixed race person because that’s how he was treated. Going by ancestry/genetics/phenotype he is quite clearly a white-leaning mixed race person.”
Broyard had a choice because of his looks. Most of us who live in America do not. Is it the way it should be? No. Is it fair? No. Is it a fact of life? Yes.
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“Broyard had a choice because of his looks. Most of us who live in America do not. Is it the way it should be? No. Is it fair? No. Is it a fact of life? Yes.”
Actually, Anatole Broyard was constrained by his appearance/background like everyone else. As you mention in your post, he was discriminated against by the two dominant social groups because he was genetically/phenotypically intermediate. Very ambiguous mixed race people like Anatole have traditionally had (and to some extent continue) to tread a treacherous social terrain that many not in their shoes would have difficulty understanding. Personally, I don’t buy these arguments coming from cry-babies which claim mixed race people as privileged. Give me a break. For example, blacks in the US are 40 million strong and control entire communities/schools/churches/etc. With all of these resources, people should be able to make a comfortable, fulfilling life for themselves. Mixed race people don’t have such opportunities. Yet here you have winers complaining mixed race people possess unfair advantages.
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And just because you don’t like who you are does not give you the right to take it out on mixed race people.
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And I’d recommend that any immigrant who doesn’t like things as they are here “in America” and scapegoats socially vulnerable populations for their own failings, to pack up their bags and leave.
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@FG, I don’t quite understand your problem with the OP….I could not find any evidence of your claim that Abagond was suggesting that people of mixed race have it easier and are better off.
What he (or in fact more precisely this guy’s life) points to is that there was a time in the US (at least was back then) when it was much more favorable for someone to ‘pass off as white’ if he had the chance and the willingness to do so. This guy, obviously, had both the chance, because of his mixed race, as well as the willingness, as is demonstrated by the fact that he chose to get away from his family so that he could have a career. Of course, it might seem that there was an element of selfishness in him, but the fact remains that the evil was in the society itself which necessitated this for Anatole. The society was and perhaps still is (to a certain extent) conducive to anyone who is white and unfavorable if you are not.
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FG said:
“[deleted comment]”
YOU leave my wife out of this.
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What it comes down to is that everyone has a right to their own person, including Anatole Broyard. Anyone can associate with whoever they want, provided that the other party reciprocates. In a color-stratified society, it’s pretty logical that someone who looks like him would associate with white people. And there’s nothing wrong or peculiar about that. In fact, his wife and close associates all knew of his background. Only his kids were kept in the dark. What is strange are those attempts to use this ideological configuration called the “one drop rule” to claim that Anatole was not what he appeared to be, i.e. a near-white mixed guy who decided to assimilate into white society.
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“YOU leave my wife out of this.”
Well, hey, you don’t seem to find playing politics with OTHER people’s personal lives that objectionable. What goes around, comes around, comprende?
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And just because you don’t like who you are does not give you the right to take it out on mixed race people.
Technically speaking, I am ‘mixed race’, however I am black identified. I find Abagond to be quite tame when writing these posts about race mixing. YOU are the one who obviously dislikes themselves. Lets get something straight here. You can identify as you want, anyone can. The resultant problems people may have, derive from people such as yourself who bash black people and blame them for your problems in society at large. If this is not so, and you are happy with yourself, why do you feel the need to blame blacks for how others perceive you, comprende? You shouldn’t care. If you just want to call yourself white than do so, who cares. I am beginning to doubt that you look the way you say you do else, if you looked white, than people would treat you as such unless you choose to apprise them to the contrary. Why bother apprising people of this, if you look ‘white’ seeing as how you dislike black people so. You seem to be the embodiment of the “tragic mulatto’ stereotype. Is this what this ‘mixed’ folk movement entails, hatred of blacks?
What is strange are those attempts to use this ideological configuration called the “one drop rule” to claim that Anatole was not what he appeared to be, i.e. a near-white mixed guy who decided to assimilate into white society.
He didn’t ‘assimilate into white society, he hid there. You see, people actually cared as to your racial antecedents back then. The fact that he hid this from his kids speaks volumes. Obviously he had a problem with it. This one drop rule you are fond of referring to was created by whites. The reason you are whinging today is because they did their job too well.
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” this is not so, and you are happy with yourself, why do you feel the need to blame blacks for how others perceive you, comprende? ”
I am happy with myself. The problems comes from SOME blacks who fanatically propagate this ideology. THEY are the ones who have been attempting to create an aura of stigma around European-looking mixed race people since the 1800s in order to deprive them of a stable social position. You’re part of this ideology btw.
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I have to say that all of this controvery has shrouded Anatole Broyard’s success in life. He penned novels, wrote insightful book reviews, and raised two successful children. And he was, as far as we know, the first mixed race New York Times literary critic. These are true accomplishments.
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“You seem to be the embodiment of the “tragic mulatto’ stereotype. Is this what this ‘mixed’ folk movement entails, hatred of blacks?”
Perhaps some of the foregoing rhetoric was overheated, but percieved attempts to deprive mixed race people of social legitimacy has provoked much passion from many quarters as of late.
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This artice made me cry.Anatole Broyard makes mad because of the way he treated his black family. He’s a bastard and a douche bag.
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LOL… My mom used to say, ” I can tell, he is black!” He looked just as “black” as my mom and far “blacker” than her father. I have little respect for this man. I get wanting to be recognized for your ability. I even get feeling like you have to “passeblanc” to get gainful employment but to hide/deny your family and have disdain towards the other blacks/creoles/colored who didn’t have the option of passing as white was just low class and quite despicable. In short, he was an ass, I am glad the world knows his secret and I hope if he ever has any grandchildren, they have a very darkskinned parent who uses the name Broyard!
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I would like to know if readers vilify him for passing as white (and not telling his children the truth), or for cutting off contact with his “black” family?
Nobody seems to want to vilify society for forcing people to make these tough decisions in the first place. I cannot believe that anyone makes a decision to pass so casually, knowing that there are costs involved. And he suffered the costs of that decision his whole entire life.
Sometimes I feel that the people who are just barely able to pass as white have some tougher predicaments than those who cannot. Being too white for the blacks and too black for the whites could be worse than being just white enough for white people, even if that means cutting off social ties with family members who cannot pass.
Of course I cannot fully condone such behavior. But I do empathize with the choice involved and do not vilify the individual. I condemn more American society that forced people to do that.
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I think him cutting of contact with his family was worse, his children would’ve figured it out sooner if he stayed in contact. I can kinda understand trying to pass to get a job or something but to completely ignore ur family is crazy to me. I could never disown my own parents and act as if they don’t exist so I can live a better life than them. His own father passed for white to get work, but I don’t see that he disowned his family. I guess like father like son, only the son took it a step further, instead of just passing for white to get work he changed everything to pass.
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If you look at pre-60s Jim Crow era, I am sure that Mr. Broyard was not the only one who “passed” to find work. I bet millions have done it. I have read about people (actually, I think I actually knew of some), esp. women, who pretended to be white in the daytime, but came back home to a black family or black neighborhood at night.
And he is not the only one who cut off ties with his “black” family. A large portion of those who passed felt that they need to do that for one reason or another. I am sure that would be more common for males who worked in all-white industries.
By the time Broyard had a white wife and white children, I think he was basically stuck to remain white. If he was found out to be black he would have been
– fired and blacklisted
– fined or jailed for violating anti-miscegenation laws
– lost all means of livelihood
while raising a family. There was a price to pay either way.
Likewise, in the past, white women who married or who had kids with non-whites also were forced to cut ties with their “white” family. But in those cases, it was likely the white parents and siblings who forced it on them. Their new reality would be closer to those women who “passed” as white for work but returned to black / non-white families at night.
The more modern equivalent would be the gay / lesbian who passes as straight for work or for relations with their family. The more extreme case would be the ones who actually get married and pass, at least at first, to their spouses. Do we vilify the individual or the society that forces people to deceive others?
Perhaps in the case of J. Edgar Hoover, he did both. But at least he is generally vilified for other reasons.
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I have family who were forced to chose back in the day. For them, it wasn’t worth losing the people and the communities that nurtured them. What kind of person could completely deny their family? Some did it only for employment, housing and educational opportunities and I completely get that. I even agree with it. What disgusts me is that, if you read more about this “man”, he not only ignored his obviously black family, cut off his Afro-Latina daughter and lied to his “white” children but that he had disdain for the social condition of blacks in the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s. How dare he be such a pompous ass when it was only phenotypic variation that gave him the opportunity to escape the oppression and institutionalized racism of that time! He died in 1990 and had at least 15 to 20 years where he could have come out and not suffered. I find it ironic that now he is not so much known for his literary work but rather the fact that he was self-loathing liar.
I know of Arabs post 9/11 who posed as Latinos. They did this for safety and to avoid harassment. I understand that and sometimes you’ve got to do what you’ve got to do, but at the end of the day, they went home and loved their Arab family.
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He cut his family off simply because they were black. He had a high-profile brother-in-law and sister who did not fit the unsophisticated Negro stereotype yet they too were denied. Even after he retired, they were denied. The climate of the time created that racism but his lack of confidence and shame perpetuated it. I feel nothing for this so-called man.
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BTW, he was closer to being half-black versus the “one-drop rule” people are using to justify his self-hating ignorance. His daughter, Bliss, had a DNA test done and it affirmed she was almost of 20% (+/- 2%) west African descent. That means he was probably 40 to 45% black. Too much to say it was distant as he often would insinuate. It’s amazing that despite never knowing this about her father and being able to avoid it physically, she- although not calling herself black (why would she? she was by all appearances and culturally, white)
– has embraced her black family. It sickens me that people are so weak that they would complete remove their family’s existence
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mike.
there is not a lot about Gala, anywhere. Would anyone know if She’s still alive ? In the 60’s I was dating Gala and we were talking about getting married and for some reason we broke up and I never saw or heard from her again.
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Interesting post. Never heard of Anatole Broyard. This reminds me of Nella Larson’s Passing.
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This an Imitation of Life scenario.
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“I have family who were forced to chose back in the day. For them, it wasn’t worth losing the people and the communities that nurtured them. What kind of person could completely deny their family? Some did it only for employment, housing and educational opportunities and I completely get that. I even agree with it. , housing and educational opportunities and I completely get that.”
– – –
I also had several family members (all now deceased) who did the same (one was my own mother, as when she was a teen she worked in a restaurant which only hired whites–an arrangement brought about by her mother’s fair-skinned cousin).
None of the family members that I know of, though, ‘passed’ as white on a permanent basis. It was kind of shocking to me when I first heard these stories as a small child, but I now have more of an understanding of why it was done. As far as I know none ever actually said anything about their race; they just allowed whites to make their own assumptions….
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Going by the above photo of Anatole Broyard, he was actually quite ‘mulatto’ in appearance, especially with regards to his skin tone and hair texture (I suppose by the 70s, he felt forced to keep up with the times by growing his hair out; he really should have kept it much shorter), It’s actually quite amazing that whites were fooled by his appearance.
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I know, he looks very mixed and it shocks me that people never knew! The stories I’ve heard about family members that “passed” didn’t say they were white, they just never corrected the assumptions that they were. It helped them provide for their families.
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my family has a book with our family tree and there are at least 3 entries where it says ” went to pass”
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White intellectuals were impressed with his intellect, it would have been jarring for them to assume he wasn’t one of them so they gave him a “pass”. Mystery solved.
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Many of my family members were “White”. They used to send letters with no return addresses to us to keep in touch. I find the condescension of White folk who scorn passing to be disingenuous. They claim that it was because Whites are better, yet they fail to recognize that it was solely because they were treated better– and deep down, they know it. Slavery shows it. But Jim Crow even more so. And my cousin who appears like Eminem, but has a father who resembles the man below with grey eyes, I believe that has mentally taken a toll on him.
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d0eada36f75c32f6ceef2bfc0d81866d-c
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