Aside from Shakespeare and the Bible, the books that have helped me the most to understand the world and my place in it were nearly all written by three kinds of people: serious Christians, black Americans and the ancient Greeks.
The Greeks make the list for three reasons:
- Along with the Bible they are what the West was built on.
- The Greeks valued the truth. They questioned things and took nothing at face value. It was not enough for an answer to sound good or be respectable – it had to make sense and stand on its own.
- Like Shakespeare and the Bible, the Greeks are universal: you can read them and they sound like they are writing about people you know, about your time and place.
An excellent example is Thucydides. He wrote a history of a war between Athens and Sparta. Reading about a forgotten war sounds like a waste of time – and it probably would have been if Thucydides wrote it like a White American: full of self-serving lies, concerned more in making himself and his country look good than in the truth.
But he did not. Instead he wrote it like he lived in the very same crappy part of New York that I lived in. Yes. A place which none of the American schoolbooks or television shows helped me to understand – but which Thucydides did.
He could do that because he stuck to the truth, particularly the truth of human nature and the nature of power. He knew full well that in a hundred years no one would care about the war, and yet he knew people would still be reading his book – because people are the same all down through history.
If I lived in China I would read the oldest Chinese books I could find. Because they would lie at the root of what makes China China. But I live in the West, so I read its oldest books instead: the Bible and the Greeks.
Some dismiss the Greeks as DWEMs – Dead White European Males – while others use them to prove how great white people are.
The Greeks did not think of themselves as white. They divided the world not by race but language: if you spoke Greek you were Greek, if not you were barbarian. Racism is not as “natural” as racists like to think. All these white people who try to claim the Greeks for the glory of the white race are, yes, barbarians. It is pretty laughable – and sad. Especially since Greek “whiteness” seems to be less than 200 years old – but that is another post.
Further, Greek achievement was built mainly on top of thousands of years of Egyptian achievement. We are taught not to notice how culturally Egyptian they were.
On the other hand, just because they were “white” and “male” that does not mean they were incapable of true greatness. That would be just as racist as saying people of colour are no good. The truth is both are equally human.
Thanks to Macon D of Stuff White People Do for kind of suggesting this topic.
See also:
Your post was a nice reminder of how my late father read and talked about the ancient Greeks when I was a child. Thanks.
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One of the most famous tales of Plato, the demise of Atlantis, is said (by Plato) to have come from Egypt originally! I think a lot of people don’t know how closely Egypt and Greece are tied.
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Abagond, this is maagnificent. I love to read and now you’ve opened up a new world for me!!
An excellent book I would recommend for you would be by Nando Parrado. Miracle in The Andes.. It is about this Urugayan Rugby team was stranded in the Andes.It has been told before through the movie, “ALIVE” But this book is told through the eyes of the survivor. It is a great book for Black folks because.
1. White Americans also have negative sterotypical views and attitudes toward South Americans. This book dispels those notions.
2. As people of African descent, we have to overcome seemingly overwhelming odds in order to achieve. This book also demontrates these Uruguayans srtuggle to overcome adversity.
3. It emphasizes how working as a team and sticking together in a horrible situation makes people stronger and able to accomplish anything.
4.It also made me think about how there have been Americans/British situations similar to that. ie,,( Mount Everest,ignoring and stepping over people freezing to death so they could reach the mountain top instead of helping) It shows how we shouldn’t assume American.European ways/thinking are not the best.
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I second Elsariel,
Every effort should be made to remind people that the Greeks studied heavily in Egypt and almost all of their civilization was built on ancient Egyptian wisdom.
See Black Athena and Dr. Kwame Nantambu’s writings on the subject. The philosophical writings you value from Greece is really the product of Kemet.
See these two articles by Dr. Nantambu:
http://www.trinicenter.com/kwame/20010615c.htm
http://www.africaspeaks.com/articles/2004/2210.html
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There’s also a book out there called “How the Irish became White”, where the author points out that “Whiteness” is something that was conferred on certain ethnicities in the US.
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Even now Greek whiteness is not as firm and solid as you might think: Last week a Greek priest was chased and beat up in Tampa, Florida because he was seen as an “Arab” and a “terrorist”.
http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?idCategory=33&idsub=134&id=22409&t=Priest+mistaken+as+a+terrorist+beaten+in+Florida
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oh yeah I heard on that on stuff white people do I just thought back to your blog Abagond, and that guy who was saying how white people are so great because of the Greeks.
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What is offensive about your claim that the ancient Greeks took everything they are known for from the Egyptians, is not thar you assert such things. What is offensive is that these claims are put forth as articles of faith. Any challenge to them is seen as racist. What is offensive is that these claims are not based on scholarly research, evidence and argument from evidence. Nor are they based on a sincere desire to discover historical truth. They are based on unsubstantiated opinions of mythmakers and fiction writers.
They are based on the possibility they are true. They are based on a desire for them to be true. They are based on a preconceived notion that white scholars have conspired from time immemorial to repress the truth that everything good about Western civilization came out of black Africa. They are based on the desire to give African-American children self-esteem and pride. You do not elevate your race by proclaiming as true something for which there is no evidence. By spreading such falsehoods and myths as historical truth, you breed contempt for white and black people alike. Your black followers will accept your claim as one more piece of evidence of white hatred for blacks; and many whites will see you as one more black racist blaming whites for all the problems of all the people of your race.
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I never said all of that. You are arguing against someone else, not me. If you read the post you would know I think highly of the Greeks, that I do not think they are losers who copied everything from the Egyptians. I said the Greeks BUILT ON TOP OF Egyptian achievement, which means they have achievements of their own.
Some commenters want us to think that whites came up with 95% of everything, completely overlooking the Egyptians. THAT is racist mythology, not what I wrote in my post.
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What is offensive is that these claims are put forth as articles of faith
Offensive how? How is this any more offensive than scholars writing from a eurocentric view, one which I may add, was a tool of colonialism at the time? The fact of the matter is, is that ancient Greek writers and philosophers attest to this in their writings. Were these modern day scholars there at the time observing them in their respective milieus? I don’t think so. Thus, any of their writings are open to interpretations depending on the mindset of the scholars. If one is writing from a eurocentric view, this will influence how one interprets the information one has. If one is writing from an afrocentric view, they will interpret the information accordingly. If they are writing from a centrist view than their writings will reflect this also. So in this regards, it is all a ‘leap of faith’, based on the particular scholar or school of thought. The vehemence in which they attack the afrocentric scholars, does speak to an underlying racism.
As for another bone of contention, that of the race of the ancient Egyptians, I would be inclined to believe Herodotus.
Herodotus actually went to Egypt, and based on first hand experience, he for example, describes the Colchians as coming originally from Egypt as they had black skin and woolly hair. I would believe someone who was there in the flesh thousands of years ago rather than someone writing from a modern vantage point. It is often hilarious when you read the naysayers’s counterpoints to Herodotus’ observations of things he actually saw in the flesh. The naysayers attempt to negate Herodotus’ first hand descriptions of the Egyptians which is ludicrous to say the least. That is not a ‘leap of faith’. Other ancient Greeks stated that Egypt was the basis of their incipient knowledge. As for engendering hate, that is in your mind. The same arguments you pose can be reversed as a rant against eurocentrism.
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hell yea, im greek. i agree with you.
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in fact, im Greece today, and for years, they do not do lists or statistics of race in thier country, because, as you stated, if you speak greek, your greek, no matter the blood. their are other europeans,arabic muslims, african, indians, all within greece, and they are considered by law, all the same race under the blue and white stripes. “Ola Kola, porros seiya.”
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abagond says: Even now Greek whiteness is not as firm and solid as you might think: Last week a Greek priest was chased and beat up in Tampa, Florida because he was seen as an “Arab” and a “terrorist”.
yes, thats because greeks are mostly a mixed group of people, with italian, slavic,arab,turkish, and african blood [due to the ottoman empire, which conquered greece and contaied settlements of present day egypt, sudan, and libya]
im glad you take an interest in greeks, because it shows how one society can connect to another and bear some of the same trits in sence of belief, history, and opinion. for example, some people do not know greeks suffered the wrath of enslavement as well. the aformentioned turks enslaved greek people for 100s of years, raped us, killed us, and oppressed our beliefs, the very beliefs you speak of.im not putting it up against american slavery, just food for thought. Ompa!
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I know this is an old-fashioned opinion, but I think all the wisdom needed for leading a quality life was first arrived at by the classical authors, Greek and Roman. Perhaps the greatest achievement of these men in the area of ethical thought was to realize that an individual’s own appetites and desires, if left unrestrained, are as potentially dangerous to his welfare as external enemies and deleterious social conditions. I don’t think of the modern West as being built on Greek and Roman intellectual foundations in this regard. The emphasis of popular ethics these days is not on developing internal sources of control but on liberating people from what are perceived as archaic moral codes so that their desires can have free reign.
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But the problem is, Greeks and Romans had different culture/civilizations; and the sources they wrote were different. Yes, they are both labelled “classical authors” and are studied under the same “classical studies”, but to see them as more or less the same is just an interpretation.
Yes, I am aware this comment is a bit of “Thad-ising”* (hair splitting), I just wanted to point this out.
*Sorry if this was considered ad hominem.
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“But the problem is, Greeks and Romans had different culture/civilizations; and the sources they wrote were different. Yes, they are both labelled “classical authors” and are studied under the same “classical studies”, but to see them as more or less the same is just an interpretation.”
Rome was culturally Hellenized over time. If I’m not mistaken, the dominant philosophy of the Roman Empire was Stoicism, and that school was founded by an Athenian.
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Yes, it was “hellenized” but it wasn’t as uniform as you may think. But I get what you’re saying.
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With regard to:
“I think all the wisdom needed for leading a quality life was first arrived at by the classical authors, Greek ”
And this is why Greek society had philosophers and thinkers persecuted and/or killed. Nearly 80% of the populace were slaves, and women had no status whatsoever
Great quality of life really…
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For those who are interested in classical thought but are not ready to delve into original texts, here are some excellent and concise introductions to ancient philosophers by Alain de Botton:
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I remember watching his shows on Channel 4.
Very good indeed plus his other ones about life as a whole regarding ‘happiness’ etc
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@J,
Yes, I find British documentaries and other educational programming to be generally quite superior to what is produced in the US.
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Thank goodness for YouTube in that regard.
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FG,
You are to be complimented for seeking them out then if things are that bad within the U.S.
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“in fact, im Greece today, and for years, they do not do lists or statistics of race in thier country”
Why would the Greeks bother?
They won’t even keep basic records on who owes taxes…
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For me, Ancient Greece was always my favorite (and most times only interesting) portion of European history.
I also think the Greeks and Brits had the best literature when it comes to world history.
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That Greeks are considered irrelevant by many, is the guilt of “boring white males”(and some females, of course:) in the academia. They always represented Greeks in such a dry way that it looks that the Greek civilization consisted of marble figures:) Western academicians have went so far that that they invented their own pronunciation for Greek and claim that it is superior to that used by Greeks themselves:)
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@ Abagond
In what ways were the Greeks culturally similar to the Egyptians?
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